1
25
62
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2178/38218/PPalmerRAM17010031.1.jpg
494173b7100efbca0b6b6b02feb92731
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Palmer, Robert Anthony Maurice. Photograph album
Description
An account of the resource
Fifty-one items. Contains photographs, documents, telegrams and newspaper cuttings.
Date
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2017-10-30
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Palmer, RAM
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[crest]
By the KING'S Order the name of
Acting Flight Lieutenant R.A.M. Palmer,
Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve,
was published in the London Gazette on
14 January 1944.
as mentioned in a Despatch for distinguished service,
I am charged to record
His Majesty's high appreciation.
[signature]
Secretary of State for Air
[page break]
[embossed crest]
Headquarters,
Path Finder Force,
Royal Air Force.
22nd. April 1944.
To:
Flight Lieutenant R.A.M. Palmer (115772)
[underlined] AWARD OF PATH FINDER FORCE BADGE. [/underlined]
You have today qualified for the award of the Path Finder Force Badge and are entitled to wear the Badge as long as you remain in the Path Finder Force.
2. You will not be entitled to wear the Badge after you leave the Path Finder Force without a further written authority from me entitling you to do so.
[signature]
Air Vice Marshal, Commanding
[underlined] Path Finder Force. [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert Palmer mentioned in despatches and award of Pathfinder badge
Description
An account of the resource
Left - certificate from secretary of state for air stating name of Acting Flight Lieutenant R.A.M. Palmer was mentioned in despatches. <br />Right - letter to Robert Palmer stating that he had been awarded his Pathfinder badge.
Creator
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A Sinclair, Secretary of State for Air
D C T Bennett
Date
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1944-04-22
Temporal Coverage
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1944-01-14
1944-04-22
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Format
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One printed and one typewritten document on an album page
Identifier
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PPalmerRAM17010031
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/888/11127/AHughesWH151021.1.mp3
33613f53da69484a983e122f2ed1e463
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hughes, Harry
William Henry Hughes
W H Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM (- 2023, 159079 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron and then with a Mosquito Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hughes, WH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: It’s all in the book, I think, mainly, isn’t it?
AS: Most of it is, but we need to get it on tape. I think. This is an interview with Harry Hughes, flight lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM, a navigator in wartime Bomber Command on 102 Squadron and then later on Mosquitos. My name is Adam Sutch and the interview is being conducted at Harry’s home in St Ives. Harry, thank you ever so much for agreeing to this interview. Perhaps we can start by going over a little your early days. I believe, you were born in Dorset.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. Did you have brothers and sisters?
HH: A sister, yeah. But I went to school in Sherborne, the Grammar School in Sherborne not the big school, not the public school. And, it was a good school but there we are, I think it was a good school anyway but they’ve, in their wisdom they’ve closed it down now and they amalgamated with the Lord Digby school, ‘cause the Lord Digby school is gonna cost too much to repair or something and I think some builder wanted to get hold of their building anyway and make flats out of it. You know, usual thing.
AS: Yeah. How did you get on at school? What were your subjects? What did you do well at in school?
HH: Mainly in maths. I got a distinction in Maths and a distinction in Physics and Chemistry. Otherwise I got all passes except English language in which I got, I didn’t fail, I got a pass, just got a pass so I didn’t get my ‘tric. Did so⸻
AS: Sorry.
HH: Anyway that’s beside the point. Anyway I left there in 1940 and my very first job was a night watchman for some lady at Lewisham Manor near Sherborne, who lost all her staff and she wanted somebody to be in the house at night and to patrol the grounds. While I went round the grounds once, no, never again, it was too bloody scary [laughs].
AS: Things that go bump in the night.
HH: Yeah, there was hooting and things [laughs]. Anyway that’s beside the point.
AS: But this was 1940. Was this, was the Battle of Britain going on over your head or had that finished?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: What, was that what pushed you towards the air force or?
HH: No. Well, I think. Well, what pushed me towards the air force was the fact that I went, my father wanted me to join the navy and I, I went down to Portsmouth to sit an exam to be a writer or a supply probationer [unclear] his own clerk, and I didn’t fancy that, but anyway they gave you twelve blocks of pounds, shillings and pence to add up that way and then you had to add up that way and then you had to add them all up across and then the figure you got down here and the figure you got down here should have been the same. Mine was nowhere near. Anyway.
AS: But your maths were good so, you threw it really, didn’t you?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Did you deliberately mess up, because your maths were good.
HH: Yeah. Yes, I know, but not the accountancy type [laughs]. Anyway, we then, coming back on the train, I was pretty certain I’d failed, so, coming back on the train, I had to change at Salisbury and I had about an hour to waste, wait at Salisbury so I went in the town and I saw an RAF recruiting office. So I went in there and saw a sergeant there and I signed on for aircrew.
AS: Just like that?
HH: Yeah. And they took me on as a pilot or navigator and then I had to go to Oxford for attestation and I went there and with all the gunners from South Wales and what have you became gunners rather, from the mines, you know, and so that’s how I came to be in the air force.
AS: Okay. Did you go through the aircrew recruiting centres in London at Lord’s and?
HH: Yes, I was the first one there.
AS: Really?
HH: Very first one to go there, I think. In July ‘41, I suppose, yeah.
AS: That’s pretty early. What, what happened then? They’ve taken you into the air force at that stage, I suppose, you didn’t know what you were going to do.
HH: Well, we went to ITW and⸻
AS: Where was that?
HH: Down Torquay, which is very nice and, I’ve got my bloody reading glasses on, no wonder I can’t see, and then I was sent down to America to train.
AS: Okay.
HH: In the United States Air Force.
AS: Straight from Initial Training Wing.
HH: Yes. Straight from ITW. We didn’t get a chance. Later on they used to, they did a little course on Tiger Moths up on somewhere in the world, somewhere up that way.
AS: So, you hadn’t actually flown in an aircraft when you went to.
HH: No.
AS: How did you, obviously they wouldn’t fly you over, but how did you get across the Atlantic, in a convoy or?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. What was that called?
HH: I went out on a ship called the Highland Princess, which I ended up selling. I sold the Highland Princess, the Highland Brigade and the Highland Monarch.
AS: Presumably not during the war when you got there.
HH: No. Four of them, I sold them in about ’51, or ’52, something like that
AS: Okay. So, you’re going across the Atlantic in convoy. Was the ship crowded? What was the conditions like?
HH: Well, we were in hammocks, you know, on meat hooks in the, you hung your hammock on meat hooks in the lower hold, you know?
AS: Gosh.
HH: And we are right up on the stern of the ship because every time the, I think she was twin screwer if I remember rightly, because every time the ship rolled the prop shoot [mimics a sound] [laughs].
AS: Is that the prop coming out of the water?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh! Gosh, and so, there must have been hundreds of men on the ship with you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: All [unclear]
HH: The one thing you found out, you had to hang on to your four and a half hat because one went missing, what did he do? Go and pinch another one. So, it went all round the ship [laughs]. [unclear]
AS: Like measles, isn’t it? Yes, yeah, absolutely.
HH: Yeah, I remember that so, I hid mine, anyway.
AS: So, you went across in uniform with
HH: Yeah.
AS: Hundreds of other people.
HH: No, when we got to, we were being issued with, at Wilmslow I think it was in Cheshire, we’d been issued with a grey flannel suit to wear in America, ‘cause we all had to go down grey worsted suits, you know.
AS: Ah, ‘cause America wasn’t in the war then.
HH: ‘Cause they weren’t in the war then, yeah.
AS: Right.
HH: So, and so we went down to Maxwell Field in Alabama first of all for acclimatization.
AS: Wait, where did the ship come in?
HH: Halifax.
AS: Oh, so you landed in Canada.
HH: Went to Canada first, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: And then, I think, yes I think we were there, we were trained down to Toronto, I think, and then we went from Toronto down to Alabama, to Maxwell Field, to Montgomery, Alabama.
AS: Okay. Was the whole journey really well organised⸻
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: Or was is the usual service mess up?
HH: No.
AS: No. It was good?
HH: It was good, yeah, everything seemed to go to plan I think, pretty well.
AS: How were you received at Montgomery, at Maxwell Air Force base?
HH: Oh, pretty well. In fact, the very first Sunday we were there, first weekend we were there, the American officer came round and, when we were having lunch, and he said, there’s a fair in town at the moment and they’ve heard that you boys are here, so we’d like you, they’d like you to come along and be their guest. So we thought we were going there but no, it was a scam, we were all scammed out of our money. Yeah, so we woke up in the morning, everybody had lost all their money, it was a real American type scam you know and I saw a coach loading up with American service people all in uniform. So I said, ‘Where is this coach going?’ ‘Oh’, he said, one of them said, ‘We are going to a little village called Prattville just outside of Montgomery and we’re going to church and if we’re lucky we will get invited out for lunch afterwards.’ So, I said, ‘Can we come along?’ Then the three of us got on board anyway. And we went in and sang all the hymns [laughs] and, real gospel stuff too it was, yeah.
AS: Deep South, isn’t it?
HH: You know, happy happy-clappy type of fellows, kind of stuff, you know, and anyway afterwards all the American were all invited out to lunch and we were there, standing there, wondering what the hell to do, because it was a long walk back to Maxwell from Prattville ‘bout twelve miles I should think and then suddenly this lovely blonde comes up, she says, ‘You all from Maxwell?’ I said, ‘Yeah, as a matter of fact, we are.’ ‘Oh’, she says, ‘Matter of fact what sort of language is that?’ she says. ‘Well’, I says, ‘Well, you probably wouldn’t understand but we are English’ [laughs]. ‘Oh’, she says, ‘English, you are English?’ And she rushed around and she got all the Americans to cancel so that we were all invited to and she was a daughter of a, she collared me anyway and the other two were taken off somewhere else, I don’t know where. And then, we had lunch and her father was the local judge and he said afterwards, after we had lunch, he said, ‘I guess you would like to take my daughter out for a drive, would you? We gotta a nice Buick in the back. Buick with a steering column for your change’ and I didn’t even have a licence [unclear] never mind [laughs]. Never mind, and I got in anyway and I drove her out, bit of snogging and came back. And that was that and I never saw her again, she, I heard later she married an American navy pilot, who got killed in the Pacific. Yeah. So I could have followed it up if I wanted to but I didn’t but by that time I was back in Canada anyway.
AS: So when did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Well, when I go to, we went down to, we were posted from Maxwell Field down to Albany in Georgia to an aerodrome called Darr Aero Tech, that was the owner of the aerodrome, I think, Darr Aero Tech. And it’s still there, I was there not long ago. And so, I suddenly had to do a flight commander’s check and he decided, he decided to wash me out so I went back up to Canada and trained as a navigator.
AS: On the flying piece, how much flying did you do? Do you think it was fair that you got washed out?
HH: No.
AS: How did that come about?
HH: Well, they wanted, they, the Air Ministry wanted as many people washed out as possible who could train as navigators, bomb aimers and gunners and what have you. They weren’t too short of gunners but they.
AS: I believe you had an instructor with a German sounding name.
HH: Oh yeah. Schmidt.
AS: Schmidt.
HH: Yeah, that was a joke really. That was in the book, wasn’t it? Yeah.
AS: So maybe he sabotaged your flying career, your piloting career. So, I presume that a lot of people were washed out at this stage.
HH: They were, but [unclear] was never washed out.
AS: Wow.
HH: Over eighty percent. I know it was a whole lot of us came back. And on Pearl Harbour, the day of Pearl Harbour we were giving an exhibition rugby match in the town. And suddenly over the tannoy came an announcement that Pearl Harbour had been attacked by the Japanese and so everybody went home, they all packed up and went home. So we went home as well. And that night, I had a place I used to get under the wire and go into town at night, you know [laughs] and when I came back to get under the wire there was a man there with a gun [laughs]. And he was trying to shoot me because he thought I was a Japanese. He said, look mate, I don’t like your look, you look like a bloody Japanese [laughs].
AS: Did you go out of through the gate after that?
HH: No. Well, I didn’t bother after that.
AS: So.
HH: I went back, well, the following day we were on the train to go back up to Canada.
AS: Is that quick?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Flight commander’s test and then pack your kit and off you go.
HH: About for, about a week later I suppose I was back, I was on the train going back up to Canada. And it’s quite an experience travelling by train out in America, isn’t it? In those days with the dining cars and everything, and the bars and but we had to change, we were on what was called the Chattanooga Choo Choo, but going the wrong way [laughs]. We were going there, were going north but the Chattanooga Choo Choo goes, comes south, doesn’t it? But we were on that line anyway. And I remember we stopped off in Boston and we had a bit of a wait there so we decided to go into town, we never did see Boston because we got on the way into town, we got attacked by these Irish Americans.
AS: For being British?
HH: We had taken them into the war.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s our fault but [laughs]. And they were at war now. And they’d be getting called up and be killed. And then anyway we got away with that alright.
AS: You were physically attacked?
HH: Yeah, yeah. They had knives and God knows what. They weren’t very nice people. Anyway, I say Irish American but I imagine they were Irish Americans, being in Boston, wouldn’t you?
AS: Big population there, isn’t it?
HH: So, then I went to Trenton where I was interviewed by a group captain and he was Raymond Mass‘s brother.
AS: God lord, Raymond Mass of the Agfa?
HH: Yeah. It was his brother. He looked just like him too. Yeah. And.
AS: Was that a sympathetic interview?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: You wanted to be a pilot and then suddenly that stopped. Was the system generally sympathetic to you?
HH: Oh yes. So they were quite keen to take me on as a navigator. And so then I went from there to Quebec City, L’Ancienne-Lorette. And from there up to Rivers in Manitoba. Which was a dry town, that was, Prohibition there.
AS: Oh dear. Good lord.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Were you in uniform by this time? RAF uniform?
HH: Yeah. Wearing a Canadian uniform in fact [laughs]. They issued us with a Canadian uniform, which were quite smart actually. And they were very similar to ours but the cloth is a little kinder, shall we say?
AS: So, you’re in Prohibition and you went out, presumably looking for a drink, do you?
HH: Well, we knew that Mont-Joli was dry but there was a little, there was a port just down the river called Rimouski, which was a timber port mainly. I remember when I took my Institute of Chartered Shipbrokers exams, one of the questions was, could you explain what were the, how many and what sort of cargo was exported from Rimouski, well everybody else thought it was in Russia, didn’t’ they? [laughs]
AS: But you had a clear mental picture.
HH: Yeah, I’ve seen it. Anyway, we were trying to, we were drinking some, we went to a bar and we were drinking this clear liquid, we had asked for whiskey but they served us up with this clear whiskey, clear liquid and when we were coming back in a taxi we were, we’d had about two each of these, we were all very sick we had to stop the taxi we were really sick and we saw afterwards that [unclear] don’t drink anything that is given to you because there is a stuff called alcool which is made from wood alcohol and it’s can make you blind.
AS: It’s like drinking anti-freeze, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh, lucky escape!
HH: And so that was that. So then from Mont-Joli we went to the staff end course at Rivers in Manitoba which was astronavigation, advanced navigations course it was.
AS: What was the basic navigation course? What was your basic navigation training like? Was it mostly classroom or?
HH: A lot of in the air.
AS: What were you flying in?
HH: Ansons. Yeah. Mark 1 Ansons you had to wind up the undercarriage, you remember?
AS: Yeah. Did you take to it easily, to the navigation, because of your maths proficiency or?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: And you found it easy to be an accurate navigator?
HH: Yes, I mean, you’re training all the time of course and right the way through when I came home from Rivers, came home over on the Union-Castle ship, called the Cape Town Castle, which I didn’t sell. And, what’s the time?
AS: Now.
HH: [alarm clock rings] The taxi, yeah.
AS: Okay. We’ll pause at there, shall we? [recording paused]
HH: Yeah. Astronavigation course A and it was mainly a flying by using star shots yeah. But when I got on the squadron, I mean you had to carry about three sets of books, you know, and a naval almanac as well. Had to work out your star shots. But when I got to the squadron they had a marvellous bit of equipment, a little projector over the navigator’s tail [unclear], which about that high off the table and you had to measure it up with a special stick to make certain it was in focus and on this astrograph there was three stars you could use and, two stars rather, two stars plus Polaris you use to get a three star fix, and you worked out a datum point for the time before you, before you got airborne and drew it on your chart and then you lay your chart down on the table and lined it up with the astrograph and then this projected the position lines of these stars onto your chart. So all, so, the bomb aimer, all the bomb aimer had to do was to take the star charts, he was, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator anyway and I think he’s still alive, I’m not sure, and.
AS: So it was very much team work.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Between you and the bomb aimer but actually on astros. So, you, we jumped straight on to being on the squadron. Did you know, as soon as you started navigator training, that you would be going to Bomber Command?
HH: Well, it’s pretty obvious I would be. Yeah.
AS; Okay. And, so, you finished your training in Canada, came back to the UK by ship, and what happened next before you got on to the squadron?
HH: I went to [unclear], is it Cumberland?
AS: I think Scotland.
HH: Up near Carlisle, north of Carlisle then, between Carlisle and Keswick I suppose. And a little aerodrome there and we learned to fly in wartime conditions, you know, where the balloon barrages were et cetera. Where to avoid them.
AS: And is this when you stepped up from Ansons to bombers?
HH: No, no, this is still on Ansons. And then from there we went down to Hampstead Norris still on Ansons and then we went to Harwell, Hampstead Norris was a satellite of Harwell at the time and then we crewed up with our pilot and wireless operator, I think we already had a wireless operator and we crewed up with bomb aimer and engineer, no, no, we didn’t have an engineer at that time, this is on Wellingtons and.
AS: What were they like the training Wellingtons, were they in good nick, were they ropey old kites or?
HH: No, no, pretty ropey, they were draughty as hell, oh God they were draughty. The wind used to whistle through that fabric, you know. [unclear] construction, wasn’t it?
AS: What was, was there a step up in gear going on to heavier airplanes and operational tactics?
HH: Oh yeah, yeah.
AS: You are moving much more quickly in your calculations and navigation than perhaps when you were training?
HH: We did quite a lot of cross countries and Bullseyes we did in OTU.
AS: What’s Bullseye?
HH: Bullseyes we did down, we’d go down to, say the Channel Islands and experience a little bit of flak there and then we’d come back up again and fly across to Portsmouth or somewhere and fly across the coast there or else we’d fly, out to the North Sea towards Denmark and come back into Hull.
AS: So this was almost a simulated bombing mission, was that?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Training, for training. Okay.
HH: They were called Bullseyes anyway in cooperation with the army, I suppose, with the the ack-ack.
AS: So, when you’re at OTU, you’re on Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Then we went up to a place called Riccall in Yorkshire, near Selby, and we had to, we trained, we converted onto Halifaxes.
AS: What, can you remember what year, what month this would be when you?
HH: Well, that would be about Christmas of, just around Christmas in ’42, I suppose.
AS: Wow, so what type of Halifax would this be? The Merlin one or the?
HH: The Merlin one, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yes, so the Hali, Hali 1, what’s his name? Not Gibson, what the hell was his name?
AS: Cheshire?
HH: No. Gus Walker.
AS: Gus, oh yeah, yeah.
HH: He was a lovely man, Gus was, and he’d taken out, all the mid upper turret and the front nose cone as well, there is a very big heavy turret in the front nose and like the Lanc was, you know. And then, it’s pretty useless that front turret was but anyway. Then, eventually we got the Hali II.1 A which had a four gun [unclear] turret on the top, yes, same as on the Hali 3.
AS: So your mid upper then got his job back.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, Gus Walker he took these turrets out to save weight, to carry more bombs?
HH: To save weight, yeah. Just to save weight, to make it improve performance a bit. And get a better height. I better ring up my taxi.
AS: So, by taking the turrets off, Gus Water was giving his aircrews more of a chance really, wasn’t he?
HH: Yeah, but then later on they improved the, we still had the Merlin 22s, same as the Lanc had, you know. Merlin 22s, but the Mark II.1 A was a much better aircraft, you could get up to, you know, eighteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two thousand.
AS: Loaded?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Which is, you were at the same height as the Lancs. And the Lancs had the habit of dropping their bombs on you. Which happened on our very first trip. We went to, we were waiting to have a nice easy trip but no, we got Essen. And then, when we were over the, when we were over the target on our bombing run but a whole lot of bombs dropped on us, a whole lot of incendiaries dropped on us and the engineer and myself had to go back and kick them out the door [laughs] and which is good practice actually, because it happened to us again over Wuppertal.
AS: Really?
HH: But that time there was a, I think it was a two thousand pounder or a thousand pounder, I don’t know, and it came and took our port rudder right off, and the port tail and the port tail blade yeah.
AS: And what sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Mh?
AS: What sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Well, we found, she was, it was still flying alright but I found that we were crabbing a bit. And I remember seeing a light below and I said, take a drift on that, would you? And anyway we found that we were crabbing quite about ten degrees to port, I think, yeah.
AS: So you do all your sums again and take that out by adjusting the.
HH: No, I just took ten degrees off every course [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: That must have been quite a hairy landing I would think.
HH: No, [unclear], yeah. I can’t remember it being anything but normal.
AS: Wow.
HH: And when we got back, the little corporal in charge of our ground crew, he came out, what the bloody hell have you done to my aircraft! [laughs] as if it was our fault, you know.
AS: Did you fly your own regular aircraft that you got attached to?
HH: Yes, yeah. D, we always flew in D, until one time we let, we were on leave and I think it was an Australian pilot took it and he was very conscious of saving fuel. So he throttled right back coming back and the result was that the, when we went to run the engine up the following day, the engine started to shake, port engine started to shake and suddenly the prop came off and went right through where I’d be normally sitting and sliced my table in half, but I was in the rest position now for take-off you know.
AS: Wow. So that was one of your nine lives gone?
HH: Yeah. I tell that story I say, as you can see I’m still here [laughs]. I wasn’t sitting there at the time.
AS: So, did they repair the aeroplane or was that the demise of D-Dog?
HH: But that was it finished, D-Dog was finished then and we got the Mark 2.1 A then.
AS: Still as D-Dog or was there a superstition about that?
HH: No. We were still with D, yeah. But, Jackie Miles, he was our mid upper gunner, he was really pleased to get that. We got four guns, he was really happy [laughs]. But it was much safer to have somebody in a blister looking down underneath.
AS: Is that what he used to do before he got the target?
HH: Yeah. Yes, and he used to put it in his log book, duty, rear gunner’s me [laughs].
AS: Yeah. On, when you were on ops, had the idea of the bomber stream come in by then?
HH: Oh yes. Yes, we were on the very first time they dropped, the Pathfinders used Oboe on the Essen raids. I think it was first used on the 5th of March, wasn’t it?
AS: I don’t know, 1943. This was.
HH: Yeah, ’43, ’43 by this time, yeah.
AS: So, it was quite early on in the idea of the Pathfinders.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, you went on ops just as the stream and the concentration were starting to take place. I know you were deep in the bowels of the aeroplane at your navigation table. Did you, did the crew see other aircraft around them, feel the other aircraft around them?
HH: No, you are in the slipstream the whole time. Especially when you got near the target, when you’re on your final run, you sort of you feel the slipstream and you have got to remember that five percent of our losses were due to collisions, it has been estimated.
AS: That’s a high percentage.
HH: I think we were told that at the time to be extra vigiliant, you know.
AS: Against the dangers of collision. What about enemy aircraft on your first tour? Did you have any encounters with the German night fighters?
HH: Oh yeah. [unclear], he shot down two, he shot down a Ju 88 and an Me 110 I think it was, yeah.
AS: And this, this was your rear gunner.
HH: And he had a problem as well. A lot of Battle of Britain pilots would have given their eye tooth for a score like that. Probably would have gotten a DSO and a DFC.
AS: [laughs] there are a lot of unsung deeds in Bomber Command.
HH: Anyway then we finished up in October ’43 and I got sent up to 6 Group, it was a Canadian crew.
AS: With the Canadians. How did you?
HH: And they wanted everybody to be Canadians, you know. They didn’t want an English instructor so I got, I quickly got posted down to 3 Group. And
AS: Somewhere along the way you, you picked up the DFM. Was that during your first tour?
HH: Yes, was the first tour.
AS: And what was the story behind your DFM?
HH: I don’t know really. It’s not in the book even, not even in the, my citation is not there, there’s a book of DFMs in the RAF, book of DFCs and DFMs. And I think there was an Australian, called Cameron, he found this book of DFMs but I don’t know, I think Gus Walker probably. You see, I’d broken my left foot, I’d broken a bone in my left foot and what with having leave, we were due for leave I went on leave on with my foot in plaster, came back and had the plaster taken off and then I fell off my bicycle [laughs]. Didn’t help. So, the doc said, ‘Right, I’m going to keep you in hospital until your foot’s cured. I don’t want any arguments.’ And the following day Sam came in, he said, we are on tonight, [unclear] and they want me to take a spare navigator and I said, ‘No way, Sam, let’s go and see the doc.’ The doc was in a good mood ‘cause he was going on leave. So, have you read all this before?
AS: No.
HH: So, [pause] he said, ‘Alright you, you can go this time, but’, he says, ‘Provided you come back into hospital as soon as you get back. If you get back’, he said, ‘If you get back.’ So, he then went on leave. Anyway, I duly arrived at main briefing, done my navigation briefing, I think we came at main briefing and Gus Walker was on the door. And Gus said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m on crutches you see. I’m going on ops.’ And he said, ‘Why?’ ‘I don’t where my crew is going, I don’t want them to go without me.’ ‘Well, oh alright then.’ So I went in and we went to Berlin that night. And when I got back, Gus was still on the station. ‘Cause he was in charge of three squadrons, wasn’t he? Up there. And he said, ‘Right, young Hughes,’ he says, ‘I’ve been hearing all about you, he says, ‘It’s alright, I’ll take you back to the hospital myself.’ And then I got in his car and he tore me off a bit of a mild strip for being irresponsible and some of that and then as I got out, he said, ‘Bloody good show anyway, Hughes.’ And I think it was he who recommended me for a DFM, I don’t know, probably.
AS: Excellent. It’s a wonderful, wonderful story. What happened, you said, you tried the book in the RAF club to find your citation. Have you explored anywhere else, to try and find the DFM citation?
HH: I did write to some time ago, I don’t know, I think they did, you get from RAF records I think.
AS: Okay.
HH: Because I wrote to them the other day and asked them if, ‘cause I had a letter from them to say that I could retain the rank, substantive rank of flight lieutenant when I finished in the reserve and use the courtesy rank of squadron leader. But I’ve never used it. So I thought it would be a nice thing to have on my tombstone, so I wrote and asked them if that still pertained, shall we say.
AS: And you are still waiting for a reply.
HH: Well, they wrote back to me and said that I’d have to give them some more proof of who I was, you know, passports, et cetera so I sent them up a copy of my, one of my utility bills and my council tax demand.
AS: Well, hopefully that’s good enough.
HH: It only went off last week, so we will have to wait and see.
AS: You mentioned briefings. I know the targets were different and the weather was different, but could you give me some idea of an average preparation for a mission from waking up in the morning to taking off. Is that possible, that sort of things that?
HH: Yeah, because you went down to the, you went down to the flights and you stood in the apron outside the squadron offices and at ten to ten on the dot, if you were on that night, the phone would ring. You knew you were on that night then and then, but if you waited and waited until ten past ten the phone would ring again to say the squadron’s stood down by which time we had all disappeared ‘cause we’d all. Didn’t want to go to on a bloody route march or something [unclear].
AS: So it was all incredibly secret but the routine gave it away.
HH: Yeah [laughs].
AS: So if the phone call came at ten to ten, you knew you were on ops that night, what would happen then?
HH: Well I did, we’d go down to our aircraft and check all the equipment in it and then if necessary you take it up on an air test and then you were back on the ground again by, about eleven, eleven thirty, and then you’d either come back and go to lunch and or else you’d and then after you’d had lunch you’d go on for navigation briefing at about two o’clock.
AS: So the navigator was the first person in the crew to know where you were going, what timing was.
HH: Yes, we knew where we were going, yeah.
AS: Was that a very full briefing, with weather? Is this when you drew up your courses, you got your turning points and what not?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Was this a very full briefing?
HH: Oh yeah, well, the navigation briefing, yes, you got your various tracks you had to go on to and hopefully they’re taking you around the defended areas you know.
AS: The flak and the searchlights, yeah. Was there a lot of work involved for you to prepare your charts?
HH: Yes, it took quite a time. You were mainly with your bomb aimer to help you, you know. Harry Hoover, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator, he trained in South Africa I think.
AS: So, you two were the only ones that knew at the navigation briefing the target. Was it difficult to keep it secret from your skipper and your crew?
HH: Oh no, you didn’t have to keep it secret but you just told the rest of the crew where we’re going so all this business about being a gasp when they, when the curtains were pulled across from the map.
AS: Probably you already knew.
HH: We all knew where we were going by that time, at least my crew did.
AS: So, you’ve done your navigation briefing and what happened then? Just sit around waiting for the main crew briefing or did you have duties to do?
HH: No, we just, by the time you finished doing the nav, it’s about time for the main briefing and then having done the main briefing you then went for an ops breakfast. The ops breakfast, which was bacon and eggs, baked beans, all the things you shouldn’t eat.
AS: Baked beans?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’re flying at twenty thousand feet.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Oh, that could have been interesting. What was the atmosphere like? Was there a lot of tension? Was there a lot of horseplay? Was there a lot of fear? What was the atmosphere like?
HH: I don’t know, I can’t remember now, there was a feeling of are we gonna make it or not, you know.
AS: Was that a personal thing or something that you talked about with the crew?
HH: I would never, never, never, never, my mid upper gunner, he, one day, we were in our room, I shared a room with him and he packed up all his biscuits on his bed and folded up all the blankets and sheets. What are you doing that for? And he said, ‘I don’t think we are gonna come back. So I’m putting the things in order now.’ And he got all his paperwork out and everything, letters and everything to his wife and things.
AS: What did that do to your morale?
HH: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t very happy about it but it was a scrub that night anyway. Then he said, afterwards he said, ‘God, good job we didn’t go to [unclear] because we weren’t going to come back.’ He knew.
AS: But after that on future trips he was fine.
HH: Well, I said, ‘Don’t you ever do that again, Jackie, I said, ‘You never do a thing like that again.’
AS: Tempting fate. What about off duty, what sort of things did you, you guys get up to that you can talk about?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Off duty, did you get much time off to yourself? Or to yourselves as a crew?
HH: Yeah. We, I used to go out with, mainly with another crew ‘cause all our crew, our skipper was commissioned, so we were all and the rest of them, Jackie Miles he lived in Leeds so when he had an evening off, he went back to Leeds and the rear gunner was the same, he was somewhere just outside Leeds. Sam was from Leeds as well, the pilot, so it was only the engineer and myself.
AS: So you latched onto another crew for the,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The social element.
HH: Yes, [unclear] crew, yeah. I was pretty friendly with his navigator but he got killed.
AS: And did the rest of the crew come back?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And brought him back?
HH: They brought him back, yeah.
AS: Your, we were talking about your navigation training and astro, during your time, your first tour on ops, did you start to get Gee in the aeroplane or any other navigational aids that you used?
HH: We had Gee.
AS: You had Gee.
HH: Right from the start, yeah. We had the Mark 1 Gee which was, used to have to tune it, the narrow knobs on the side and you had to tune it to get a signal and it’s like tuning one of those. Televisions, you know.
AS: Keep wandering off. Did you, was it as a big revolution in navigation as people say?
HH: The Gee was, yeah.
AS: The Gee was, it really did make a difference.
HH: Yeah, well, it did make a difference because, but you didn’t get it beyond the Dutch coast, it wouldn’t work beyond the Dutch coast but you had we, well, you had LORAN later, in Mosquitos we had Gee and LORAN. In fact, it really annoys me now to hear the met men talking about the jet stream because we found the very first jet stream. I found a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots at thirty thousand feet.
AS: Tailwind.
HH: Hundred and ninety five knots and when we got back, I told the met man, I said, ‘I got a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots and you were forecasting forty five to fifty knots.’ He said, ‘I don’t believe it, I don’t believe it!’ So he went to Group headquarters and the Group headquarters said we don’t believe it. They went to Command headquarters and the met people up there said they didn’t believe it either. But then everybody else came back with these winds and they suddenly realised what was called jet streams but now they talk about jet streams all the time. And what they mean is where the warm front, the warm tropical front meets the polar maritime front and all the way along that you get depressions form and then, and with it you get this so-called jet stream would form as well. Ah, so which comes first? The frontal systems or the jet stream?
AS: Must be the fronts, must be the fronts. So, when you are doing your tour, you’d had the nasty experience of being bombed twice by your own people, probably 5 Group above you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Was that the limit of the difficulties you had? Was the aeroplane mechanically reliable or did you suffer?
HH: Oh, we, came back on three engines more times than we came back on four.
AS: Really?
HH: Yeah. I think we came back on three engines eleven times out of our tour.
AS: And what did your ground crew chief say to that?
HH: Well, it wasn’t their fault, necessarily, well, he didn’t think it was anyway.
AS: It’s just overstraining them, is it, full fuel, full bombload climb to heights. Coming back from the raids, what was your pilot like? Was he one of those that, wanted to pour on the coal and get home early or did he stick to heights and courses as briefed or?
HH: Well, he couldn’t do much else with a Halifax. But when I was on Mosquitos, with our New Zealand pilot, we were always first back [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: Becomes a matter of pride. On your first tour still perhaps we can talk a bit more about that. As you got towards the end, did the, you knew presumably you were going to stop on, what, thirty trips?
HH: Well, I did twenty six in fact.
AS: Okay.
HH: Which we were screened two trips early. I would have done twenty eight for my first tour, ‘cause the pilot had already done two second Dickey trips to start with. [door bell rings] That’s my taxi now.
AS: Okay.
HH: So I’ll just pause this. [recording paused] We were just talking about your tour length. The question I was going to ask is did you feel a real rising tension as you got towards the end of your tour?
HH: But we didn’t know we were towards the end, we thought we had another two trips to do.
AS: Okay.
HH: But, I remember Sam coming in and he says, ‘I have some good news for you, we’re screens and you’re off on leave from tomorrow. You are all going on leave tomorrow.’
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Mh?
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Ah, it was good feeling but I forget what happened now. When I was on Mosquitos I think when I was doing my last trip on Mosquitos ‘cause you had to do fifty on Mosquitos you see for a tour.
AS: So, you finished on 102 Squadron and were there many crews that went all the way through like yours did?
HH: No, not a great deal, I wish I had the [unclear] I’ve got it somewhere, might be in that case there, book of all the losses, you know. 102 Squadron losses.
AS: Oh, perhaps we can look at that tomorrow or now if you like.
HH: Well I, it might be in that case, I’m not sure.
AS: Let’s pause this and we’ll go and have a look. [recording paused]
AS: Harry, good morning, it’s day two of our interview sessions. It’s very good of you to agree to this interview. Can we start by going back to your first tour of operations during the Battle of the Ruhr on Halifaxes. Were you conscious at the time that this was a major battle or was it just one job after another?
HH: We were trying to hit Germany where it hurt, ‘cause we didn’t only go to the Ruhr and we went to places like Pilsen, and then we did Nuremberg and Munich and.
AS: Were you briefed on specific targets in these cities and told what you were going after?
HH: Oh, we knew that Essen was the Krupp works, yeah, and we were given a good, pretty good briefing by the intelligence officer what we were gonna hit because one time we went, we were going to. There was almost a mutiny one day because they were sending to some place I forget, Gelsenkirchen or somewhere, I forget where it was now, and [pause]
AS: What happened then? What was the mutiny all about?
HH: Well, the intelligence officer said that he didn’t know why we were going there, there was nothing there, there was just a spa town that we were going to hit but what we didn’t know, of course, it was a leave centre for the Gestapo and the place was full of the Gestapo officers and but you know initially we said, no, why are we going there, you know? And there was almost not exactly a mutiny but it was a fear of you know, why are we bombing this place, we probably would just hit a lot of women and children.
AS: So, this was 1943. So even at that stage.
HH: This is ’45. ‘43 rather.
AS: So, even at that stage there were some concerns amongst the crews about what you were doing and where you were going.
HH: Yeah, we didn’t, the Hamburg raids for example. That’s the first time there was a real firestorm and we went on three or four of those raids, I forget now, it’s in the book, Hamburg in July ’43. That book is falling to bits, isn’t it?
AS: Well, it happens to all of us, doesn’t it? As we get older. Here we go, 24th of July ’43 and the 27th of July ‘43. Ops Hamburg, yeah. And then the 2nd of August.
HH: Yeah, the 2nd of August when we, we’d already realised that the firestorms, you know, in then, we were dropping our incendiaries first and setting fire to places and then dropping four thousand pounders, two and four thousand pounders on top of the fires which, that’s why it’s called the firestorm, the blast from the comparatively thin-cased two thousand pounders and what have you, would suck in the air and the oxygen, you know, and cause these firestorms.
AS: So, the thin-cased bombs would blow the roofs off and then the incendiaries would go inside and.
HH: Well, you know, in that, wish I could find that, you could sit and watch that, the CD I’ve got somewhere in there of.
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Yes, the first or second of the Hamburg raids which caused the firestorm. And I remember watching this from over the bomb aimer’s shoulder and watching these fires spreading and I remember saying, I felt very sorry for the people down there.
AS: At that time.
HH: At that time, yeah. In fact I said a little prayer for them.
AS: Is this something you discussed with the crew or any of your friends?
HH: Not really, no. I just said a prayer to myself, yeah.
AS: And was that really specific to Hamburg or to?
HH: Just to Hamburg, yeah. ‘Cause that was where the firestorms first started. Well, it was worst then Dresden actually.
AS: I believe so in the numbers lost. So, your first tour was absolutely in the thick of what we call the Battle of the Ruhr and extremely, extremely difficult and dangerous missions.
HH: The people who came after me, they’d done Hamburg and the Battle of the Ruhr, and then they had to follow on doing the Battle of Berlin. You can find my very last trip was to Berlin I think, no, it was Hanover. It was one of my last trips was to Berlin, that’s when I went on crutches, yeah.
AS: Home on three engines, that one?
HH: Was that Berlin?
AS: Yes, 23rd of August. And then you did a Munich and a Hanover. What was Berlin like? Was it special, was it the
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was Berlin perhaps the best defended target? What was Berlin like?
HH: It was the length of the trip really. You know, on heavies, on Lancs and heavies it took us eight and a half hours there and back. What’s it say there? [paper rustling]
AS: Seven hours fifteen, that’s still an incredible time. People talk about eight hour days, and that was a full day’s work at night.
HH: Was a full day’s work was being shot at too.
AS: And, I mean, was Berlin the best defended target, do you think or was that the Ruhr, perhaps?
HH: No, I think, I don’t think it was as bad as the Ruhr but it was, there was plenty of activity there but mainly a lot of fighter activity there over the target, over Berlin.
AS: And you, you could see the enemy?
HH: Oh yeah. They were coned and searchlights one time I was on Mosquitos, there was two Mosquitos, an Fw 190, and an Me 109, all on the same cone.
AS: Wow!
HH: And there is a painting of that somewhere. I described it, you know. And there is a painting somewhere that is called Berlin Express. And [unclear] have got the original.
AS: Okay, I’ll look for that.
HH: [unclear] then.
AS: Okay. Some trips to France as well. Le Creusot. You weren’t after a saucepan factory there were you, what was, can you remember what that trip was about?
HH: Oh yes, that was, they were manufacturing parts for tanks and things, I think.
AS: Gosh, here, after Le Creusot, Muhlheim, home on two engines.
HH: Yeah [laughs]
AS: What’s the story behind that? Did they just pack up or was it flak or?
HH: Yeah, they just packed up on us yeah, these Merlins were you know they were way overstressed on the Halifax and we came back on two on that occasion, yeah.
AS: After a lot of, after the Hamburgs that we talked about and Berlin, Munich. Now, can you remember that trip? September ’43 to Munich.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First off, first back, in your log book, eight hours, fifty five minutes. Did the stream hold together, the bomber stream hold together over these long distances?
HH: Yeah, you we were all given certain times, you know, you had to be at certain times on all the way along the track, at the various turning points, you know. And I think it did help, you know, no doubt about it and then with the advent of Window of course, it just threw their ground tracking, we had a little device, did I tell you, a little device called Boozer in Mosquitos.
AS: No, you didn’t, no.
HH: We had a little device which, when they were tracking you from the ground, a little yellow light used to glow. But when they were tracking from the air, a red light used to glow. And one night, we were coming back, and somewhere around about the Hamburg, sorry the Bremen Hanover gap, and this red light came on very bright and we knew the red light meant we were being tracked from the air you see. And then suddenly over the top of us, about the height of this building, just came two, I think they were Me 263s,
AS: The jets?
HH: The jets, yeah. Right over the top of us. And they didn’t see us. I got a photograph of a Mosquito somewhere I don’t know what she’s done with it now. I meant to ask her that when she was in last night.
AS: No worries, maybe today. So, this, the 262s had the speed, they were the only ones with the speed to catch you, really.
HH: Yes. They were doing about a hundred knots faster than us. Fifty to a hundred knots faster than us. And they just sailed over the top of us and disappeared in the distance. There were four jets, two of them.
AS: So they had radar airborne in the jets.
HH: Yes.
AS: That is a pretty dangerous development, isn’t it? That was another one of your nine lives gone, really, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Your slices of luck. Back to your first tour, you, when did you come off ops?
HH: I went to a conversion unit, at a place called Wombleton.
AS: Okay, was that Stirlings?
HH: No, it was Halifaxes actually but.
AS: Okay.
HH: Canadian group, they are mainly on Halifaxes.
AS: In 6 Group, how did you get on with the Canadians?
HH: Not very well.
AS: Really?
HH: No. They are very, they didn’t want to know us, you know, they just wanted to get rid of us as quickly as they could.
AS: I’ve heard this that they were running,
HH: They wanted to run their own show.
AS: [unclear] as part of the Canadian.
HH: I remember getting one crew and I said, I wanted to send them back for further training because the navigator was absolutely hopeless. He really was, he couldn’t, it was like putting, I don’t know, he was thick as two planks, he couldn’t. So, I said if you’re sending this crew with this navigator they don’t stand a chance of getting through, not a chance at all. They’ll be shot down on, within their first five operations, they’ll be shot down.
AS: And do you know whether that came to pass?
HH: No. They didn’t like this, you know, the fact that I’d criticised one of their Canadian crews and I was posted down to 3 Group and, which suited me, and the crew got to squadron, got to a squadron and they did one trip and got hopelessly lost and I heard it afterwards that the CO of the, I think it was Lane, what was his name? Lane. He said, what the hell are you doing sending us crews that are, they should have been send back for further training. And I had recommended that.
AS: Had you been commissioned by this point?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: I was commissioned at the end of my first tour, I think.
AS: What sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: Pardon?
AS: How did, what sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: I just had an interview, I don’t know, who I had an interview with now, I can’t remember. And I mean after the interview I was then a pilot officer but I was a flight sergeant before and my pay was sixteen shillings a day as a flight sergeant but as a pilot officer I was only going to get fourteen and four pence a day. So they said, oh, we can’t have that so they gave me a six pence rise, six pence a day rise so I was getting fourteen and six a day as a pilot officer. And then eventually when I was a flight lieutenant after a couple of years, I was out in India by that time, and I got, well I was on Indian rates of pay anyway so, it didn’t factor.
AS: Back to the instructing. You finished an operational tour, had some leave and presumably your crew dispersed.
HH: Yeah. Pilot went to Rufforth converting many French Canadians and to go to Elvington, French, I mean French crews rather, French crews to go to Elvington, to 77 Squadron.
AS: Did you keep in touch with any of your crew members after?
HH: I came up to York a couple of times and met Sam, Jackie Miles I used to see and my gunner and Harry [unclear] the, the last time I’ve heard from him, he was up at near Shrewsbury.
AS: You all went to instructors jobs, do you?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did they teach how to be an instructor or did they just send you off?
HH: No, I just went in and just talked to them and told them where they were going wrong, you know, and how to waste time and things like that.
AS: In the air this is.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, did you do any formal classroom training of these chaps or was it just, what, supervising in the air and on the ground?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Supervising?
HH: Yeah, just going through their logs and charts individually with them and showing them where they’d gone wrong.
AS: And I believe the same sort of thing used to happen on ops, that when you came back your nav leader would go through your charts, is that right?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: They’d assess your, that’s the assessment on each one there.
AS: That we saw before.
HH: The little design on his wall, Charlie had, he had sort of a little square beside each one of you and you had two dots for very good, one dot for reasonably good, no dots at all for
AS: Average.
HH: Just average. Yeah.
AS: That’s his way of keeping track. So, on 3 Group, is this when you went to Stirlings? When you were training?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When you left the Canadians and went to 3 Group, that was, what was that, Stirlings, was that the Conversion Unit there?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yeah, it’s down at Chedburgh.
AS: Okay.
HH: And, yeah, Chedburgh, near Bury St Edmunds. There was a beer drought down at that time and we used to cycle miles to find a pub with beer [laughs]. Then we’d keep very quiet about it [laughs].
AS: It’s not too bad.
HH: Me and a Canadian called Connors and we wanted to, we’d heard about that 8 Group wanted Mosquito pilots and navigators, so, we both applied to go, we both applied to go back on ops together. So, our first application, we were turned down because, being in 3 Group on Stirlings, you know, they were rather short of crews, and so we were turned down anyway. So we waited a couple of weeks and we applied again and we got turned down again. So that night, I got a tin of black paint from the stores and I wrote a message, a letter on the ceiling of the mess to the group captain, quite a polite letter, would you kindly pull your finger out and get us posted back on ops. We’re fed up with this instructing so could we please get back in so and so and signed it Connor and Hughes. The following day we were up in front of the old man and he said, ‘Right, you’re both going back, no way you’re going on the same crew or on the same squadron. In fact, you go back first, Hughes. Connor will follow you in about two- or three-weeks’ time.’ And this is what happened.
AS: It’s amazing. So you weren’t actually instructing for very long, were you?
HH: No, from October until July, so I suppose six months.
AS: Okay.
HH: And you’re supposed to have six months, at least six months rest, you know? From operations. Between tours.
AS: Okay. And then, in July having arranged your own posting really, you arrive at 1655 MCU. What’s MCU?
HH: Mosquito conversion unit.
AS: Okay.
HH: At Warboys, yeah, and Weston [?].
AS: I imagine this must have been a completely different sort of navigating. Was it?
HH: Oh, just very quick, but you, you wouldn’t think it now but I was very, very neat and tidy in what I did. I knew exactly, I used to keep my pencils in my flying boots, my dividers as well, [unclear] my Douglas protractor I kept in my hat with my dividers, which was behind me and my Dalton and, and then we used to take as your [unclear] fix, as soon as you got airborne, you got to operational high I’d take fix, fix, fix, every three minutes, then work out a tracking ground speed wind velocity and then another three minutes later another fix, a nine minute tracking ground velocity plus the sixth, the latest sixth one and another one, further on, six, and I can tell you exactly which way the wind was going, how far out the met was on their winds.
AS: And these fixes would be visual fixes or Gee fixes or both?
HH: Gee fixes.
AS: Gee fixes.
HH: So I’d take fix, fix, fix, you worked really hard to get the timing, you know, of the.
AS: Whereabouts was the Gee screen in the aeroplane? You were sitting on the right in the [unclear]
HH: I was sitting on the right and the Gee was behind me and LORAN as well.
AS: Okay. So.
HH: Gee and LORAN which was behind me.
AS: So, could you operate the equipment with your harnesses done up?
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: ‘Cause you just turned your head and⸻
HH: I just turned my head. It was just like there, behind me, there, but I could turn easier then and it was there, you know, just behind about there, about that angle to me.
AS: And it is just, as you say, second nature, three minutes, three minutes.
HH: It didn’t take long to take the fix but it took a long time but we, we had charts with the letters, lines of the Gee chart superimposed on top of it. So, this really worked very well.
AS: So, what came up on the Gee screen? What allowed you to compare the screen to the map?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the presentation on the Gee screen? What actually came up? Was it numbers or?
HH: Yeah. Well, you just, you could, you worked out, you knew what, you strobed the whichever signal you wanted to take, you know, and then you, you strobed the two of them and then fix and then you just read it off.
AS: I guess it’s, so you gotta an alphanumerical printout did you virtually.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Wow. So that could be done quickly.
HH: It’s quite, it’s very quick to work it all out, yeah, to work it out to get, to actually calculate the winds on your Dalton.
AS: How did you operate at night, because I imagine you had no lights in the cockpit?
HH: Well, we had enough.
AS: Okay.
HH: We had a red light and then, what’s his name? Anderson, our group navigation officer, he found that red, you couldn’t see the red markings on your chart. So, that was all orange and green.
AS: Which was easier to see.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. So, when you’d done your Mosquito conversion unit or at the Mosquito conversion unit, you must have crewed up with a pilot, how did that go?
HH: Well, I had already wanted to fly with this Australian so, when this New Zealander came along, I thought, he’ll do, I crewed up with him.
AS: As simple as that. And did you do, did the aeroplane Mosquito take some getting used to it, so different from a heavy bomber, with different performance and.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: What was she like to fly in?
HH: It was nice and reasonably fast. And I don’t think you really noticed it until you were doing some low flying.
AS: Shall we take a pause there? Okay. [recording paused]
HH: The Mosquito was, it was terribly difficult for a navigator to get out of.
AS: Why was that?
HH: Well, you had to, first of all you had to get hold of your chute and you kept that on, then you had to jettison two hatches to get out,
AS: Underneath.
HH: Underneath, yeah. Slightly forward towards the nose, yeah. And but by which time your pilot probably gone out of the top and you were spiralling down and the chance of you getting out was pretty slim.
AS: This hatch underneath must have been very close to the starboard propeller.
HH: Yes, we, yeah. Yes, it was quite close, yeah.
AS: Did you practice this on the ground a lot?
HH: No. I don’t think they thought you were, it was worth the risk. But the, a friend of mine used to fly with a man called Gill and he went down, got killed, Ronnie Knaith went down with his aircraft, and Gill got out and came home and he went to see Ronnie’s parents and they just slammed the door in his face, they wouldn’t talk to him. ‘Cause they had thought that he’d should have stayed onto the controls until Ronnie got out. Which is really what one was supposed to do.
AS: I hadn’t realised that the drill for the pilot was to go out of the top.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Because there’s a tailfin behind.
HH: Yeah, you jettison, you jettison the hood I think, the whole hood went. And theoretically the navigator could’ve gone out after him, I suppose, but.
AS: I think overall the losses were less on the Mosquito.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: I think you were safer flying in a Mozzie than in a Halifax.
HH: Yes, I mean, there’s somewhere I got the losses in Hamish’s book, in Hamish Mahaddie’s book, all the losses in 8 Group and you will see that 692 do feature quite regularly, you know.
AS: Yeah, so you were posted to 692 Squadron after the conversion unit. You’d had, I suppose, eight months away from ops by then, ten months, had things changed a lot in that time?
HH: I don’t think they’d changed all that much for the heavies, no. And we operated separately and we used to do Window opening for the heavies, we used to do, we used to fly out with the heavies and used to meet up with them at Reading, they’d all congregated there, what’s that? There is something squeaking, did you hear?
AS: I don’t know, let’s pause the tape.[recording paused] Well, Harry, we discovered what the squeak was, it was the smoke alarm. We were talking about Window opening and you meeting the heavies over Reading.
HH: Yeah. We used to fly down with the and meet up with the heavies and then we’d weave in and out of them, stream, you know, and you could see the strength of the stream then because, you know, there was just a whole block of them all over the horizon.
AS: And these are daylights.
HH: Yeah, in daylight, yeah, it would be. And then somebody in one of the heavies would be signalling to us, you lucky bastards or words to that effect. So I was sent back, been there, done that [laughs].
AS: Fair do’s. Because you could fly a lot faster and a lot higher than they could.
HH: Well, we used to be, weave in and out of them, you see. And then, then when you got to the coast, you climbed very rapidly above and you got to your operational height. If we were going to say, if we were Window opening say for Stuttgart, we’d probably do a, you go to Cologne first and drop a few bundles of Window there making them, making them think that was the target, you see. And then we’d go along to wherever, Stuttgart, and where the main force were going, and we’d, we’d do Window opening for the first wave of Pathfinders going in.
AS: Okay. This was the, was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Yeah, well, we were the light night striking force, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: But our main role was to bomb Berlin every night.
AS: Oh, you were involved in this Berlin shuttle?
HH: Yes. So, we used to drop our cookie, we used to drop Window for the heavies and then we’d go along to Berlin and drop our four thousand pounders, keep them awake.
AS: Ah, so, did you have those special Mosquitos then?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Those with the pregnant bomb bay?
HH: That one there, isn’t it?
AS: Yes. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, who got to drop the bomb? Was it you or the driver?
HH: Me.
AS: You.
HH: Yeah. Unless we were doing low level. And even then it was me up on the front, up in the nose.
AS: How did you, how did you drop Window from a tiny little aeroplane like Mosquito?
HH: We had a chute, little wooden chute which used to go through the two doors and we just dropped bundles of Window through that. Remember to grab the string as it went down, otherwise you’d just drop bundles [laughs].
AS: You don’t want them falling on someone’s head and hurting them, do you?
HH: No [laughs]. So, it’s a nice day now, isn’t it?
AS: It’s wonderful out there. It’s great. So, sometimes you were operating with the main bomber stream and sometimes as 8 Group by yourself or squadron by yourself?
HH: Individually, yeah.
AS: Individually too?
HH: We used to fly, we used to sing, I made up, there was a song going round at that time sung by Hildegard, I walk alone, to tell you the truth I’ll be lonely, I don’t mind being lonely, when my heart tells me you are lonely too. So, I made up the words for our squadron, we fly alone, when all the heavies are grounded and dining, 692 will be climbing, we still press on, it’s every night, though they never will give us a French route, for the honour of 8 Group, we’ll still press on.
AS: That’s fantastic.
HH: It’s always a [unclear] no matter how far, one bomb is slung beneath, it’s twelve degrees east, one engine at least [laughs]. It’s a pretty horrible little song.
AS: it’s brilliant. It sums up what you felt.
HH: Not as good as some of the songs, you see, erks used to make up in India and down in Burma, you know. One they used to sing, rotting in the jungle, on a [unclear] marshy shores, dysentery, malaria and bags of jungle sores, living around in a bloody great heap, our beds are damp, we cannot sleep, we’re going round the corner, we’re going round the bend, two trips to Meiktila, maybe three or four, AOL’s a keen type, he thinks we’re doing more. When we get back as you can guess, we’ll put this effing kite US [laughs] and we’re going round the, and there’s about two more verses to that, I can’t remember, that’s when the mail arrives, and there’s two for you and f.a. for me you know [laughs].
AS: I think we will have to try and get you a recording contract. This could be an excellent CD on the wireless.
HH: I don’t think they’d allow it to be broadcast.
AS: Probably not, probably not. But see, you, it sounds as you had very high morale on the squadron.
HH: Oh yeah. But, yes, this was when I was on ferrying.
AS: And on 692, as you say, opening with Window and then lots and lots of trips to
HH: Berlin.
AS: To Berlin. Did you ever get involved in a double trip, I believe some people, some crews did two trips to Berlin in one night.
HH: Yeah, we did, on one occasion we did. I think we did Duisburg in the morning and Berlin that night. Came back, and refuelled and bombed up again and we were away again.
AS: There must have been, I would expect, a cumulative tiredness at that level of operations. I’ve seen your ops on your second tour are very close together.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First of October, third, fourth, fifth, two on the fifth, very, very very close together and then Berlin followed the next night by Cologne. Did you, were you conscious of getting tired?
HH: Well, no, because when you’re off, you went into town and into Cambridge and I met up with my girlfriend and she was lovely, my girlfriend, I must have a picture of her, I did have a picture. She was beautiful, she was lovely red hair and creamy skin, you know, and green eyes, oh, she was beautiful. I used to walk down the street with her and everybody would stop and stare, at her, not at me [laughs].
AS: I was going to ask that. And you met her when you joined the squadron?
HH: When I joined 692, yeah. Yeah, we were walking, you remember, do you remember the Red Lion in Cambridge?
AS: I don’t know Cambridge well. I know where the airfield is.
HH: There used to be a passage where you could go through, you’d start off in the Baron of Beef, down by the river there and, and then you go from there to the Bun Shop and to get to the Bun Shop you have to walk through the Red Lion right, right the way through there, the foyer, there is a bar, two bars there and when I walked through there one night, there was Red sitting there with two of her friends and as I walked through, I said, ‘Cor’ to who I was with and I caught red hair and no drawers, and I said, ‘I’m in’ [laughs]. And she followed me through to the Bun Shop and that’s how I met up with her [laughs].
AS: Excellent. Probably best not pursue that story too much further, I think. So, you’ve got here on a trip to Berlin, landed Woodbridge. Now⸻
HH: Yeah.
AS: I know that Woodbridge is one of the emergency landing grounds.
HH: Yeah, well we, very often we had to land, when we took S-Sugar, which is a bloody awful aircraft with a terrible fuel consumption, if we took that to Berlin, we would end up, always end up landing short of fuel at Woodbridge. In fact, one night, when Harris was on this station, we were the only squadron operating that night, so he came to our briefing. [phone ringing]
AS: I’ll pause there. So, after the phone call, we were talking about S-Sugar and its ability to drink fuel.
HH: Yeah, on this night Harris was at the and [unclear] Northrop, our CO was reading out the battle order, you know, and he said, came to, flying officer Mormo, S-Sugar, ‘S-Sugar?’ said Roy, ‘What’s wrong with our Robert?’ ‘Well, that’s got a mark drop on the starboard engine, you’re going to have to take the spare.’ ‘But S f for Sugar, sir, that bloody kite flies like a brick shithouse!’ [laughs] and old Harris was standing there, and he was trying his best not to laugh, you know, his moustache had a twitch and [laughs] you could he’s gonna laugh every minute, you know. But he didn’t, he held it in [laughs]
AS: What was Woodbridge like? Is an emergency landing ground very different from a normal airfield?
HH: Oh yeah, you, huts with the roof off, you know, half off and snow would come in, on a snowy night, yeah.
AS: Not finished?
HH: No, they had just blown off. That’s a nuisance that thing, isn’t it?
AS: Your smoke alarm, yeah. As we got to this time or you got to this time in the war, this was late 1944.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Had the scene changed in terms of aids to navigation, things like Sandra lights and Darky and ground organisation, was there a lot to help you?
HH: [unclear] Much on the ground I think, mainly H2S, Oboe, things like that, you know. And G8, wasn’t it? G8.
AS: G-H, yeah. I didn’t, I don’t know how that worked, I never had that but we were quite content with LORAN. In fact, I got a wind over, going down to, I forget where I was going, Berlin I suppose, but yeah, we were going over to Berlin I think and I got a wind just north of the Ruhr, a hundred and ninety five knots.
AS: Wow!
HH: And what we’d done, we hit a jet stream, you see, and but when I came back, I said to the met man, I got a wind of a hundred, impossible, impossible, impossible, and it went to Group and Group said impossible as well, went to Command and Command said impossible well then when everybody started to get them, they suddenly realised there was something in this jet stream. Now they talk about nothing else but the bloody jet stream and it annoys me that because they ignored their existence during the war, the met people did and we kept telling them, look there is something up there and it didn’t last very long, you see, you were in it and then you were out of it, you know. So you couldn’t use it as a general wind to carry on to Berlin, shall we say for example, and nor could you use it when you were coming back. You might hit it again but it’d be in a different place slightly and.
AS: It must have meant that you had to be on your toes with your fixes all the time.
HH: Yeah. Anyway we,
AS: In your logbook, it suddenly goes from duty as nav to duty nav b. What was the significance of?
HH: Well, I stood in as bomb aimer as well.
AS: Ah, okay, that’s what it was. Tremendous number of operations over the winter of ’44-’45.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So I presume you must have flown in most weather with the nav aids that you had.
HH: Oh yeah, I remember one night, I don’t know if I should say this because it’s a bit derogatory to somebody who’s now dead, and that’s to Don Bennett. He was in the control tower on this particular night and we were getting hoarfrost all along the wings of our, as we taxied out we were getting hoarfrost develop all along the wings, so Roy got onto control and he says, ‘Could we have the de-icing bowsers out, please?’ And Bennett said, ‘Never mind about the de-icing bowser, just get off the deck.’ Well, we didn’t go, we said, ‘No, no. It’s too dangerous.’ Anyway, another aircraft came after us and they ploughed into the end of the runway and they were both killed of course when their bomb blew up. And Bennett never said a word to us afterwards, he was, we came back for briefing that night and he’d left the station. We came back and got the de-icing bowser and got cleared of the hoarfrost. He literally left, you see. And then we went to Berlin that night, I think.
AS: I should think, with fuel and a four thousand pounder you must have needed all the runway to get off.
HH: Yeah, well, there is another tale attached to that, the, you see, we started off with four thousand pounders, I think we were the first squadron to have four thousand pounders, and then they put fifty gallon drop tanks on each wing which were increased eventually to seventy five and then a hundred and then, and then we ran out of four thousand pounders and we had to borrow four thousand pounders from the Americans, which were four and a half thousand pounds. So another five hundred pounds to get off the deck. But the old Mozzie just used to take it all in its stride. No bother.
AS: You had no concerns.
HH: No, and I remember one day when I’d finished tour. I was sitting in the crew room minding my own business and the CO, a Canadian called Bob Grant came in and he said, ‘You doing anything Hughes?’ I said, no. He said, ‘Grab yourself a ‘chute would you and I’ll see you out at the aircraft.’ I said, ‘What do you⸻’ ‘Just bring a local Gee chart and local maps, would you?’ So when I got out to the bay, they were loading a four thousand pounder and I said, ‘Well, what fuel have we got?’ ‘You’ve a got full load of fuel and two hundred gallon drop tanks.’ And there’s a wind blowing right the way down the 330 runway which was fourteen hundred feet or something compared with two thousand feet on the main runway. I said, ‘What are we gonna do then?’ He said, ‘We’re gonna see if we can get off with this wind, the scale blowing, see if we can get off on this, on the fifteen hundred runway.’ So, we got to the end of the runway, and he waited until there was a gust of wind blowing, until the airspeed indicator was indicating about fifty or sixty knots. And we went. And I dropped the cookie on the live bomb target in the Wash and then we came back. And he got a report and said it wasn’t possible. I said, ‘Well, thanks for telling me.’ [laughs] it wasn’t possible. And he said, ‘No, no, no,’ he said, ‘I don’t think the crew, you could expect the whole crew to wait’, the whole squadron rather to wait until there was a lull, that’s turned till there was a gust of wind which would get them off the deck.
AS: It’s a good example of leading from the front though, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Doing the test himself.
HH: It was old Bob Grant, he’s dead now, he married a Yorkshire, he was CO of 105 Squadron, amongst other things and he was, when he got back to Canada, of course he was made up to brigadier, I think. He was a group captain here, so he was a brigadier. That was equivalent to air commodore, wasn’t it?
AS: I think so, yeah, yeah.
HH: I don’t know.
AS: And, ah, there it is Group Captain Grant, 19th of March 1945, bombload take off fourteen hundred yards. That was pretty much the end of your operational flying, I think, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: On the Mosquito. Last trip, February, February ’45.
HH: Hanover, wasn’t it? Or Hamburg, Hanover.
AS: Frankfurt, I think, Frankfurt in your log. And did you know that that would be your last trip or you’re just told you’re screened?
HH: Yeah. You knew you had to do fifty on Mosquitos. So.
AS: And what did happened after that? Did you go back instructing or?
HH: No, no, we were sent on leave and when we came back, we’d been posted, several crews had been posted down to Pershore to ferry Canadian built Mosquitos across the Atlantic. And I crewed up with a different, Lloyd had gone back to New Zealand and he used to fly with Air New Zealand after the war. And thanks to me, because someone had put a bottle through his hand and all the tendons had gone. And so he couldn’t, when we were taking off at Whiten once doing a cross country, we got airborne and suddenly the throttle went back and he grabbed hold of them and held it with his hand and because you had to keep the throttle up so loose ‘cause of this weakness in his left hand. So I said, ‘I’ll tell you what we’ll do, Roy, from now on I’ll tighten the throttle knot for you when you’re ready. As soon as you want, you just say, throttle knob and I will reach through and grab the throttle knob and turn it and tighten it for you.’ And we did that every trip. And but I, ‘cause I had to reach over, I couldn’t strap in, so I did all my trips without strapping in [laughs]. I never strapped in again, not with Roy flying. So he’d of never, I mean, he was flying with Air New Zealand afterwards he’d never have passed their medical if he’d of disclosed it, you know.
AS: But eventually, not in a Mosquito, but he’d be flying with throttles on the other hand, wouldn’t he? So the problem,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The problem would go away. So you’d had some leave, you were posted to fly to Pershore to fly Mosquitos.
H: Yeah. And we were sent on indefinite leave, Pershore sent us on indefinite leave. And I thought, oh God, I’ll be grounded for sure. So, I got on a train and went up to Air Ministry and saw a wing commander there and I said, look, there is a war going in in the Far East [unclear] aircraft ferried out there, coming back for maintenance and what have you. And he said, what a good idea, you know, come back in the morning, will you? And I got the whole lot posted out to the Far East. Fifteen or eighteen, I think I told you this before, didn’t I?
AS: I think so but we didn’t get in on the tape, I don’t think, no.
HH: No.
AS: I bet you were popular.
HH: Fifteen, oh God, when I got down to Lyneham they were moaning, ‘I’m just due for demob for God’s sake, why the heck do I have to, due for demob any day now.’
AS: I bet you kept quiet.
HH: And here I am, so I kept very quiet. And so, I mean I wasn’t due for demob for some time.
AS: So here we are, Lyneham in July ’45. A huge trip as a passenger on a deck. Thirty two hours flying.
HH: Yeah, back to Karachi, yeah.
AS: So by going, going East, you, did you, before you went, did you see, did you go on any of these trips over, over Germany to see all the destruction?
HH: No, no.
AS: Okay.
HH: I missed all that.
AS: You’d said earlier that you said a prayer for the people of Hamburg. What, at the end of the war, did you reflect at all on the, or during that, on the bombing? And what were your feelings about being involved in it in the war?
HH: Well, I’ve spoken to our vicar about it, you know, and said, do you think Saint Peter’s gonna let me through the gates? Or not. So she sat and he said a prayer for me. Lady vicar of course. Anyway, but I was invited out to Hanover as a guest of the mayor and the local newspaper to commemorate the 60th anniversary of when we bombed them.
AS: And you went?
HH: So I went over, yeah, well, I was asked to volunteer and I remember, at the Bomber Command meeting they said, did anybody go to Hanover, I said, well, I did. When I got home, I found out I’d been to Hanover about eleven times and [laughs] so I was well qualified.
AS: And are you pleased you went, did it turn out well?
HH: Yes, they were very, very, very nice, I like German people.
AS: So do I.
HH: I got two of them coming over now. Here any day now. I think. They stay up at [unclear] castle, ‘cause he’s paraplegic, he can’t get down my steps.
AS: Yeah.
HH: He’s, he had polio when he was a youngster. But they come over by air this time so he couldn’t bring his invalid scooter with him so I don’t know whether he’s gonna hire one when they’re here or not, I don’t know what they’re gonna do to get around.
AS: That should be possible, I think.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And these are friends you made when you went to Hanover?
HH: Yeah. Well, they were both reporters with the Hamburger Allgemeine. And anyway I was, the last day I was there in Hanover I was there for about three or four days, I had to attend a meeting of all the survivors from the raids and all the students from university there and the colleges and what have you and a little girl gets up and question time you see and she gets up and says, can I please explain what was the duty of the navigator? Well if you ask me a stupid question like that, I’m gonna give you a stupid answer, for sure. So I said, ‘Well, the reason why we carried a navigator, because we had to have someone on board who could read and write’ [laughs] and their mouths fell open, he went like this, everybody, so I said to my interpreter, I said, ‘Tell them, it was a joke, will you?’ ‘Ah, a joke, yeah, we got no sense of humour, we Germans, we’ve got no sense of humour at all.’ [unclear] So then, later on somebody, one of the survivors said, ‘Why did you bomb the city?’ So I said, ‘To be perfectly honest, we couldn’t hit anything smaller but just remember this,’ I said, ‘Right in the centre, almost within half a mile from the centre of Hanover there was the biggest rubber factory in Germany, so it made Hanover a very legitimate target.’ ‘Yes’, this man says, ‘But you didn’t hit it, did you? ‘Cause it’s still there!’ [laughs]. I said, ‘Well, and you tried to tell me that the Germans got no sense of humour?’ [laughs] And then I was on their side from then on.
AS: I’ve lived there for eleven years. I’m with you. I’ve lived there for eleven years.
HH: Have you?
AS: Yeah. They’re great people, great people. I think.
HH: In which part were you?
AS: I was in Munich for five years.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And then in Bonn and Cologne, in the Rhineland for about six altogether. Some of the places you visited by air, in fact. That’s the feelings of the Germans. How, there’s been a lot of controversy about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Have you got any views on that?
HH: Well, I think, first of all, we should never, never have bombed Dresden, I think that was the biggest mistake we made. And Portal should have stood up and said, no! But he didn’t have the guts to do it, he didn’t have the guts to stand up to Churchill and it was Churchill who, on his way to Yalta, he stopped off at Malta, And they’d agreed to bomb five cities within reach of the Russian lines, you know, and I think Dresden was one and what’s that? And Leipzig and one other I think. Anyway he sent back this signal to Portal saying, from Malta saying, where is my spectacular, get on with it. So, Portal looked at the charts and he consulted the Met people and the only target available that night was Dresden. I didn’t go to Dresden, I went to Magdeburg, Magdeburg that night, you can see it on there, in that book there.
AS: You believe it was, that Dresden was the turning point and that?
HH: Mh?
AS: You believe that Dresden was some sort of turning point?
HH: Yeah.
AS: How Bomber Command were treated?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you, do you feel now that it’s changed with the memorials and the clasp?
HH: Yeah, I think so. I think, there was a time just after the war, when the people who were against us were the people who were in the Air Force or in one of the forces and they felt that we were, they didn’t want us to have any publicity, you know.
AS: After the war.
HH: Yeah. And then, and then since then, they’ve suddenly realised that you know, we had the highest losses of any unit in the, our forces, fifty five thousand killed, which is quite a lot, wasn’t it?
AS: Yeah. Fifty five thousand, five hundred and seventy three.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’ve seen a, well, or you see a change in attitudes now.
HH: Yes, I think, younger people are much more inclined to want to hear about it and talk about it and understand why we did it and there is no good saying, well, we were under orders to do it, because that’s what the Germans excuses were, you know, for their treatment of the in the concentration camps. We were under orders.
AS: And you did it because it was right?
HH: Well, we did it because we thought we were, ‘cause we were shortening the war and therefore less people would be killed.
AS: Is it, I agree, you say, that now people want to hear about it, is it good for you and other veterans to be able to talk about it after all this time?
HH: It’s getting more and more difficult, there’s so many books have been written on there, now.
AS: And you are actually in one of the books.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Steve Darlow’s book. How did all that come about? Did you get involved with him?
HH: I don’t know. He wanted, I think I was recommended by probably Bomber Command, you know, Dougie Radcliffe.
AS: Oh, the Bomber Command Association.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Have you always played a big part in that?
HH: No, no, I was mainly in the Pathfinders Association.
AS: Oh, okay.
HH: We were separate from, we were separate from the Bomber Command Association, but I’d already joined the Bomber Command Association when we disbanded. I’d already been a member for several years.
AS: And do you belong to your squadron or 102 Squadron association as well?
HH: Yeah. Yes, it’s, I’ve written a letter to, when I went to the VJ-Day celebrations⸻
AS: Yes.
HH: We had to fill out a form travelling expenses and I got three hundred pounds from the Lottery Fund.
AS: Excellent.
HH: And my son Jeremy, who’d driven me up there and then he got three hundred pounds as well. And I don’t, I hope he hasn’t. So I wrote a letter to the Big Lottery and said, thanking them for their, I said, so, twice a year I’ve got to go to, up to Pocklington in Yorkshire, which is rather expensive for me now ‘cause you got to go up Virgin cross country you know, right the way up to York and it’s a long journey that. It’s an interesting journey but there’s no, there was a little old lady pushing the tray along, pushing the trolley along, you know, that’s all that you get to eat with some coffee and a fruitcake or something.
AS: It’s not the same as a full dining car.
HH: I like the dining cars on, I’m going up on the 22nd of October I think, coming back on the 23rd, I always travel back down on the dining car which, on a train with a dining car which leaves at seven o’clock in the evening.
AS: Do you still have wartime comrades that you’ll meet in Pocklington?
HH: Oh yes, yeah. Most of them are dead now but.
AS: So, a lot of reminiscing and’
HH: Yeah. There’s a friend of mine, who was a previous chairman, Tom Wingate, who, he wrote a book called Halifax Down, ‘cause he was shot down on his second tour, and I used to have a copy but I can’t find it now. I don’t know what I have done with it, I lose things all the time now.
AS: I have a copy at home, I can send you one.
HH: Pardon?
AS: I have a copy, I can send you one.
HH: You got a copy of that?
AS: Yeah, I have.
HH: Halifax Down, yes, it’s not a bad book, actually. Except that he joined the squadron the same time as I did, his crew did. And he’s quoted in his book, as if he was there three or four months before me. He’s quoted various trips and he’s got these out of those old war diaries, wish I could find that. I wonder where I put it?
AS: Well, you’ll have to take your logbook the next time you meet him.
HH: Oh no, he’s dead now.
AS: Okay.
HH: That’s why I’ve taken over as chairman.
AS: After you came off ops, you did this trip out to the Far East, did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: In what?
AS: Did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s quite a lot really. My very first trip was down to Akyab, on the Arakan coast. I think I told you, didn’t I?
AS: Yes, but not into the tape. So, what happened on that trip?
HH: I don’t think that particular trip’s in there, actually, I looked for it the other day and I can’t find it. I must have left it out for some reason.
AS: This was the trip with the Japanese.
HH: Yes, all the way around us were Zeros, you know. We could hear them yacketing away and then this Indian crew comes on with their Hurricanes and the Japanese just disappeared.
AS: What was the radio conversation about with these Indian squadrons, red flight?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the radio conversation story about the?
HH: Oh, well, the Indian crews? ‘Yes, red leader to yellow leader, how do you read me, over? Yellow leader to green, you are not red, you are green, you know? Red leader to yellow leader, I am not green, I am red. And this Aussie voice comes up by the blue, you are black, you bastard’ [laughs].
AS: So, it’s still a combat area that you’re flying replacement aircraft I suppose in to the squadrons?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you get involved in flying damaged aircraft for repair?
HH: Oh, I used to fly back from say Kamila or with two Pratt & Whitney’s engines in the back and a load of ENSA girls as well amongst them [laughs], sitting where they could and trying not to get greasy, ‘cause these, and yeah.
AS: Yeah. Shall we, pause there I think?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And wind it up. Thank you that, It’s been absolutely wonderful to hear.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Hughes
Creator
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Adam Sutch
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHughesWH151021
Format
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02:28:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hughes volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1940 and trained in America, where he was washed out as a pilot and then retrained as a navigator in Canada, flying Ansons and Wellingtons. In 1942 he converted to Halifaxes and flew operations with 102 Squadron over Germany, being awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal for flying an operation to Berlin whilst on crutches. He recounts the routines of preparing to go on operations and his use of navigation aids including Gee, LORAN and later, Boozer in Mosquitos. He was bombstruck twice during operations. He completed 26 operations including the bombing of Hamburg which he describes as a firestorm and recalls saying a private prayer for the people of Hamburg below. After his tour finished, he then instructed before applying to go back on operations with 8 Group, flying Mosquitos with 692 Squadron and dropping Window for Pathfinder forces in 1944/45. In 2004 he visited Hanover and discussed the raids with survivors of the war. He was a member of a number of post war service associations and kept in contact with his crewmates.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Southeast Asia
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
1945
102 Squadron
3 Group
6 Group
692 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Anson
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
faith
Fw 190
Gee
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
incendiary device
Ju 88
Me 109
Me 110
Me 262
medical officer
meteorological officer
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
Portal, Charles (1893-1971)
promotion
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Harwell
RAF Riccall
RAF Wombleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1828/33474/EAdj35SqnRAFEylesCW441118-0001.1.jpg
770a667bc46118af5b7e8415e3d6a387
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1828/33474/EAdj35SqnRAFEylesCW441118-0002.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Eyles, Bill
C W Eyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Eyles, CW
Description
An account of the resource
51 items. The collection concerns Bill Eyles DFM (900473 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book. notebooks, correspondence and photographs. He flew a tour as a bomb aimer with 78 Squadron and later a second tour with 35 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Hazel King and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Royal Ai [censored words]
Gra [censored word]
Ref: 35S/S.1/26/5/Air. 18th November, 1944.
Dear Eyles,
Herewith certificate for the permanent award of the Path Finder Badge awarded to you on completion of your operational tour.
[signature]
Flight Lieutenant, Adjutant,
[underlined] No. 35 Squadron. [/underlined]
W/O C.W. Eyles,
15, Dales View Road,
[underlined] Ipswich, Suffolk. [/underlined]
[page break]
HEADQUARTERS,
PATH FINDER FORCE,
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
30th August, 1944.
To: 900473 Flight Sergeant Eyles, C.W.
[underlined] AWARD OF PATH FINDER FORCE BADGE [/underlined]
You have to-day qualified for the award of the Path Finder Force Badge and are entitled to wear the badge as long as you remain in the Path Finder Force.
2. You will not be entitled to wear the Badge after you leave the Path Finder Force without a further written certificate from me authorising you to do so.
[signature]
Air Vice-Marshal, Commanding
Path Finder Force.
(4159) M13466/M 1453 8/44 1000 BGH Gp57/9.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Bill Eyles and certificate for award of pathfinder badge
Description
An account of the resource
Letter encloses certificate for permanent award of the pathfinder force badge awarded on completion of his tour. Certificate signed by Air Vice Marshall D C T Bennett.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adjutant 35 Squadron
D C T Bennet
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-11-18
1944-08-30
Format
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One page typewritten letter and one page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EAdj35SqnRAFEylesCW441118
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Huntingdonshire
England--Suffolk
England--Ipswich
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-18
1944-08-30
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription. Under review
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alan Pinchbeck
35 Squadron
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders
RAF Graveley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8827/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8827/AStockerE150726.2.mp3
7e15241140da7cda2f348cf1f0899645
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton, the interviewee is Edward Stocker. The interview is taking place at Mr Stocker’s home in Clanfield, Hampshire on the 26th of July 2015.
ES: My name is Edward Ernest Stocker but I’d be glad it if you called me Ted Stocker. I was born in August 1922 and I joined the Air Force at the age of fifteen in January 1938. I became — I went to Halton, became one of the Trenchard brats, er, and from there on, I was in the Air Force and life took its natural course with the war on. I started out as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. The Halifax really did need a flight engineer because the aircraft was originally designed to bomb Germany from advance bases in France. The idea before — early on in operations we bomb — although you got our bombs in England then flew to France, refuelled so that we could reach Germany but, of course, when a little thing like Dunkirk arrived, it was no longer feasible, so they modified the aircraft, added extra fuel tanks. Eventually we had four fuel tanks in the Halifax. They kept adding, squeezing little tanks in all over the place and at the end of the time we had seven tanks on each side, and the management of those fuel tanks, to keep the centre of gravity where it belonged, and to ensure that we didn’t run out of fuel at an inappropriate moment, kept the flight engineer extremely busy. That was great, um, but that’s how the Halifax developed and that’s how the duties of the flight engineer developed, very much looking at fuel and obviously watching the engine instruments, looking for any unfortunate things. The Halifax had very early Merlins, Merlin engines, which was subject to internal, um, coolant leaks which, er, often resulted in having to switch the engine off. This again was a duty of the flight engineer to watch for this. When we changed over to the Lancasters only — I did forty-seven trips on Lanc— on Halifaxes — when we changed over to the Lancaster it was a whole different ball game. Now we had only, um, four main tanks, er, two in each wing and a little tank. Fuel management was simple and straightforward. The engines were Packard built Merlins which were not so — they had a, a revised design of the engine cylinder block which, um, reduced the chance of internal, um, coolital leaks so we didn’t have the trouble with engine overheating or having to shut the engine down. The Lancaster was a whole better ball game but, um, so much so that on the Lancaster really the, the flight engineer was not fully occupied, was partly acting as a cheap co-pilot. Remember it takes a lot of time and money to train a co-pilot. You can get a flight engineer for a much lower price. Put him in the right hand seat, he can act as co-pilot anyway and that’s really how the flight engineer’s role was developed.
AP: Right.
ES: But when you get on to the Lancasters, where there isn’t the problem for the engines that we had on the Halifax, the flight engineer was not as fully occupied, and Don Bennett, the chief of Pathfinders, Air Vice Marshall DCD Bennett, er, said that, um, he wanted two navigators on the nav table and the flight engineer he, he can soon learn to drop the bombs, and so, on Pathfinders, the flight engineer ended up very much as being both the flight engineer and co-pilot and bomb aimer, all wrapped into one, but there was duties spread through the flight. That made the flight engineer’s job much more interesting, dropping – aiming bombs particularly when you got onto flying with master bombers where you’re putting the markers down. It was a much more interesting job than it — as it had been originally on Lancasters.
AP: So can we talk a little bit about the actual Pathfinding Squadron and what they did?
ES: Pathfinders was developed, I was — I didn’t — I joined Pathfinders the month they started. I didn’t do the first Pathfinder raid but I did do the second Pathfinder raid and I stayed on Pathfinders until the end of the war and I saw the developments as they were — happened. As I say, one of the early ones was getting H2S radar so we had a decent radar picture. The Morton thing — the techniques developed, we ended up basically with, er, three basic types. There was visual mark— visual marking where everything was done by looking at the ground aided by the radar, of course, which was the, the straightforward one. Then, of course, we had the problem with cloud cover and they developed a radio which was led by radar, particularly when we got Oboe. When Oboe came in, so strange. Oboe markers can be put down from the UK very, very accurately, and, um, we — when outside radar range, we had to develop radar assisted bombing which was bombing through cloud, um, which worked to a point. But the worst — the trickiest one was when you had very high cloud, no chance of seeing the ground at all, and we — you, you see sky markers which were, um, flares which burst at a ver— very high altitude and gave a false aiming point. Obviously, if you’re aiming for something in the clouds, on top of the clouds, the bomb doesn’t know it and wants to go underneath and goes through the marker and carries on forward, so the sky markers, as they were called, were very tricky for the main force to use because they were aiming at something, and their bombs were going to hit something else. But, um, they were the three basic types. There were various variations on those three but basically, you’ve got the visual marking, you’ve got radar assisted marking and you had sky marking, they were the three basic types.
AP: Could you talk a little about H2S and Oboe, what they are?
ES: Oh, H2S was the — if you look at a picture of the Lanc, you’ll see a bowl, a bulge underneath that, um, concealed it. Made of material which is very — does not interfere with the radar, a fibreglass substance, and inside that is the scanner going round, painting a picture on the cathode ray tube of what it can see underneath. It’s a very crude form of television really, it shows the sea and the land as separate colours. It shows built up areas where you’ve got a lot of windows and things, windows and, um, roofs and the slo— sloping of the roofs deflects the radar, and that gives a different sort of picture. But that was the H2S which we — but we were very lucky. We were one of the first. The Pathfinders had H2S before it was in general use. The other one I mentioned was Oboe. Oboe is — was originally used for Mosquitos because it depends on line of sight from the UK and involves the development of the system that the Germans had used to bomb Coventry, where you had radio beams. It was the British development that was more accurate and involved the bombs actually being released automatically by the Oboe system. The, the pilot flew down one radio beam and when it crossed the other beam, er, the bombs were released automatically. It was extremely accurate, we’re talking sort of a hundred metres radius. It was very very good. But unfortunately, the range was limited by the line of sight but the Mosquito was — because it was able to fly higher than the Lancs ever could, could take the Oboe bombing further into the mainland of Germany, of France anyway. After D-Day, they put mobile Oboe stations on the continent and Oboe was able — the range was able to move forward. We did have Oboe in a Lanc on 582 Squadron, and I went on the first Lancaster Oboe raid with Group Captain Grant, who was squadron commander of 109 Squadron, the Oboe Squadron, and we did the first Oboe raid over France from the Lancaster. I must admit I did not enjoy it because having put Oboe into the thing, the pilot and the rad — Oboe operator had to have their own intercom system but nobody else could use it. So, about a few minutes from the target or something, six or seven minutes from target, the rest of the crew were off the — off intercom and, er, you just flew straight and level to the target, fighters coming in, AK-AK, so what? You couldn’t tell anybody [slight laugh]. That was the bit about Oboe I didn’t like on Lancasters but it worked. Fortunately, I did the first one to prove it that it could and after that I let somebody else have a go.
AP: Right, and this was just marking. You weren’t dropping any bombs at this stage?
ES: No, we were the dropping markers, the target indicators. The target indicators — I should have explained. The target indicators were a giant firework. You had a — the shell of a one thousand pound bomb. Inside it were little can—little canisters which were ignited when the bomb burst, and they put down coloured candles. They burst normally at about three thousand feet over the target so there was a cascade of coloured, er, candles falling from the bomb over, over the target area, hopefully over the target itself. This gave the main force an aiming point, something to aim at, a coloured cluster of fireworks. Well, if they were put down by Oboe, initially they were in one colour, um, to keep the marking going — because Oboe could only fly — operate one aircraft at a time over the target we were main — on Pathfinders came over with different colour markers and tried to aim at the original aiming point to keep the markers alive for the rest of the raid. Remember, some of the raids took twenty or thirty minutes. The Pathfinder’s job, when there was an Oboe raid, was to keep the initial marking going on the same aiming point.
AP: Was there a particular colours? Did they use particular colours?
ES: Oh yes. The primary — usually the main colour was red, the primary marker, so that the master bomber can say, ‘bomb the red Tis’. When we were backing up, we were usually backing up with green. Yellow was used for some things, because we also used markers on turning points on the raid on the way in. When you’re going into a target, you don’t go straight in because the Germans can see which way you’re aiming, you do a dog-leg or something. Well to mark a turning point, we used markers dropped by Pathfinders on the turning point. They were usually yellow or something, not, not reds, and that was basically the TIs, we called them TIs, target indicators, they were just giant fireworks but, er, they seemed to work and they were visible from a long way away.
AP: And while you’re doing this, you’ve got AK-AK and night fighters and all sorts of things.
ES: Well, they do, they do try and distract you a little [slight laugh]. The gunners are on, on the ball the whole time, swinging their turrets and watching for everything, providing the fighters are seen and are not too close before you see them. Then the thing you do is an escape manoeuvre. Corkscrew was the usual standard procedure. If you’ve got a fighter high on the port sight, you corkscrewed port down. If they were up on starboard side, you corkscrewed starboard down. If they were low down, you still did a corkscrew. The corkscrew is just — you are following the path of the corkscrew which keeps the gunner, the enemy, sharp, on a constant, er, deflection shot and, er, what you’re trying to do really is to spoil his deflection shot. The deflection is changing the whole time when you’re doing a corkscrew, hopefully that makes him miss. AK-AK, well it comes and goes. If it’s close, you can sometimes hear it rattling on the fuselage. The Halifax had — the propeller blade on the Halifax was made of a wooden material, it was laminated wood blades to the props, although the bases were all metal. We did get jumped by a fighter somewhere and, er, his cannon shells came through just a bit to the right and they actually hit the starboard inner prop, and they hit a blade and that blade broke. That of course, created a, a terrible out of balance. The thing was shaking like hell. No good looking at the instruments and I had an interesting exercise. Well, we’ve been hit. Obviously one engine was in trouble, we’re shaking like hell, my instrument panel was shaking like hell and there’s no good looking at the instruments, a waste of time. So I went up — I went to stand beside the pilot and I put the two propellers on the port side up and down to change the pitch, and it didn’t seem to affect the balance, so left those, and so I went to the right hand side and I changed the pitch on the two right hand engines, until I found the one that was changing the frequency of the vibrations, then I knew which button to press to stop the engine. But that’s the sort of thing you had to do, sort of think, think on the hoof, what do you do next?
AP: Yes. Did you lose any engines at all?
ES: On Halifaxes, you lost engines regularly. I think I almost came back on three engines more often than I came back on four on Halifaxes. I think on Lancs, I only remember losing an engine on a Lanc once, but the Halifax yes, because of this internal coolant leak, we did lose a lot of engines. Sometimes you didn’t really know whether it was a serious leak or not, um, because the added problem on the Halifax was the oil cooler was very large in relation to the amount of oil. It’s a circular oil cooler, if you can imagine like a drum, and the oil came in on the top on one side and the deflection of the oil was supposed to go round the bottom and out on the other side, which it did normally, unless it got, got a little bit cold and then the oil would go in on one side and the, the oil in the middle had got so cold it wasn’t flowing properly, so the oil went in on one side, on the outside and went round on the outside and came out again on the — still at the same temperature it went in at. That resulted in a thing called the oil cooler was coring, it was getting a hard core in the middle. If you did get that, and you did occasionally, if you recognised it, you shut that engine down a moment, which gave the time for the oil temperature in the oil coolant to stabilise and then you could — hope there wasn’t an oil leak, start the engine up again and if it ran OK, fine, you’re that done and happy again. Little things like that. The Halifax was the trickier aeroplane from the engineer’s point of view. You had to be on the ball. You asked about how many raids I did, well I did forty-seven on Halifaxes and then I — that is because on Pathfinders, er, you didn’t do a single raid you did a double raid of forty-five. Well, being me of course, I did a couple extra. But, um, my whole career really, basically, goes back to my second trip. The first trip I did was in a Halifax to Essen, which was a good starting point, you know, they don’t come much tougher and, um, that was OK, except I came back with the view that, ‘How the hell did he know we’d bombed Essen’. But that was because early on in the war, finding a target was a hell of a hit and miss affair. But anyway, for the next trip I was put on a raid to go to Nuremberg in a Halifax, which at that time, we’d only got five tanks, and I got together with the navigator and said, ‘How many air miles are we doing?’ Because when you start thinking about fuel consumption in an aeroplane, well the fuel consumption depends on which way you’re flying. If you’re going downwind, you go a lot further than you go upwind, so work on air miles and that’s the number of miles you go through the air. Anyway, the navigator gave me the air miles and I looked at the fuel load, and said, ‘It ain’t enough’. And so, being a cheeky eighteen or nineteen year old flight engineer, freshly promoted from corporal to sergeant, I went up to the squadron commander, the squadron leader in those days, and said, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip’. To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing’. Silly lad, he’d believed anything. But anyway, we were a little short on fuel. In fact, we crashed nearer to base than anybody else in the squadron. We actually, er, ran out of fuel about three or four miles short of the airfield and came down in an untidy heap. I had given an ETA, estimated time of arrival, of no fuel and the navigator had given an ETA of when we should be at base. Well, the navigator had us at base about five, four or five minutes before I’d said we’d run out of fuel. It was a little matter of errors. I was right, we did run out of fuel when I said, but we hadn’t reached base. It was just down there ahead of us and, um, when they — I said we were going to run out two engines on one side stopped, one side had stopped developing any power, so I went down the back and put on a cross feed pipe, which put the empty tank that was running the two port engines to supply fuel to the two starboard engines, so that we had four engines running for a moment, and skipper in his wisdom said, ‘It’s time to get out of here’, and gave the order to bail out. It seemed sensible at the time, well it was sensible except the fact we were carrying a co-pilot, who was a captain from Whitleys, the other squadron on the station, and the Whitley is very poorly heated, so if you fly in a Whitley, you put all the full Irvin suit on, that, er, sheepskin lined leather suit, jacket and [emphasis] trousers, and he was a lad, a tall boy, quite a well-built lad, and so that the first thing that happened when the skipper said, ‘Bail out’, navigator lifts his table up, pulls the hatch out from underneath him, puts his parachute on and jumps, he’s gone. The wireless operator then thought that, underneath the skipper’s seat on the port side, and he was getting ready to go and this great big teddy bear of a man with this Irvin suit on, oh he didn’t jump out, probably couldn’t jump with all that clobber on and, er, he sat on the back of the hatch and put his feet out. That was alright. And then he tried to put his head out but it’s a very small hatch. From my position in the co-pilot’s seat, I could see his backside sat up in the air, but he wasn’t going anywhere. So I wondered, ‘What the hell we’d do?’ Len thought down there, he looked and he, he summed it up quite quickly. He pointed me to come back a bit, so I had to move back a bit, so that Len could get up on the top step and then they jumped, he jumped, and two bodies disappeared out of the escape hatch. Well because of the Battle of Britain, the pilots in Bomber Command sacrificed their pilot ‘chutes to put fighter command in the Battle of Britain, and the pilots in Bomber Command flew with an observer type ‘chute which is a harness with a separate pack for the harness, for the parachute itself, and there was stowage under the seat I was standing on, which contained the pilot’s parachute. The flight engineers job, when the two have gone out or three have gone out the nose, go under there and get the pilot’s parachute. Great, but I go — went down there. Oh dear, the elastic to hold the pilot’s parachute were not fastened and the pilot’s parachute must have been sucked out with the [unclear], it wasn’t there. So I go back up to the step, I’d got my parachute on by this time myself, I get back at the step and talked to the skipper, ‘Sorry your parachute’s gone’. By that time, all four engines stopped and, um, so we obviously were going down, so I jettisoned the escape hatch over the pilot’s head so that he could get out and then I went back amidships where there was a— another hatch in the roof with a ladder up to it for — and I, in fact, opened the hatch and was pushing it back when we hit the ground the first time, and I was flung forward against this, er, ladder and I found myself cuddling a ladder. We were in the air temporarily until we came down for a second time and, um, we slithered along a bit and came to rest. So, I’d got the ladder handy and gripping it, up onto the roof and there’s the skipper coming out. I was thinking we were the only two left. The rear gunner, he’s gone down the back, all he had to do was turn his turret round and jump. Oh no. Our rear gunner suffered from night blindness, which is not a great help for a rear gunner. He couldn’t find his harness, his parachute, anyway so he was still inside the fuselage looking for his parachute when we hit the ground. We didn’t know this of course so we got out. Skipper and I were on the wing and about to jump off and wondering about all these cows running and doing a war dance round the aeroplane, and a voice from behind us said, ‘Wait for me’. It’s our rear gunner. He never did find his parachute and so the three of us ran to the edge of, edge of this field, dodging all these terribly upset, terribly upset cows and got to the edge of the airfield. Got a little fire on each engine, [unclear] and stuff, nothing serious, so we stood there and then, um, as I said, we were very close to the airfield and, er, two ambulances turned up and then the CO turned up. He had a quick word with the skipper, he kept well away from me, and, er, I think after that he got the idea that maybe flight engineers do understand a bit about aeroplanes [slight laugh]. I’ll only say this, many years later, the squadron leader was our wing commander and CO of 35 Squadron, leader of the Pathfinders. I’m the flight engineer then, a flight lieutenant, and when the CO wanted to fly, [unclear] I was his flight engineer [laugh]. But, um, anyway we’d landed, we were in an untidy heap. Of course, this is — everything’s organised in the RAF. So, there was a crash, OK, two ambulances turned up so of course we were, we were not really within walking distance to the base, and so I go to one of these ambulances and, ‘Can you give us a lift back to the airfield’, ‘No, I’m bodies only’. Oh, go to the other one. ‘You’re not injured, are you?’ ‘No, I’m not injured’. Eventually they sent out a guard party to look after the wreck overnight and, um, one of those they got the driver out and he ran us back to the airfield. Interesting things, um, the three blokes that bailed out, two of them ended up on the same train. One had landed next to the railway, stopped a goods train, and sort of the driver said, ‘What do you want?’ ‘I bailed out’. ‘Oh, get in the guard’s van. We’re going into York’, sort of thing. He goes a little bit further on. There’s another bloke waiting with a parachute, waving, so he stopped and said, ‘Your mate’s in the guard’s van’ [laugh]. The other fella hadn’t got a lift with the train got — bloke with a car, and got back. Anyway, they all got back safely, the three got back safely. Anyway, that was my first endeavour. Rather gave me a reputation because the result of that, I think was that, um, when the Halifaxes were moved — we were on the first Halifax Squadron— when another squadron was going to get Halifaxes, they had to be trained on how to fly Halifaxes. The usual way was to take an experienced crew from one squadron, move them to a squadron with one Halifax and they were, er, trained with the new squadron. Well, good idea. So, they got — the squadron, 102 Squadron, was going to get Halifaxes, and so they sent a qualified crew, except I think, the CO wanted to see the back of me, I’d only done four trips. I was not an experienced — but I was the flight engineer on the experienced crew that went to 102 Squadron. There I was, I had done four trips, I was on this new squadron, teaching people how to — all about the Halifaxes, and that’s how my whole car— career started. Because I was there and I was the only experienced flight engineer, when the squa— new squadron commander was going to do his first trip on a Halifax, he wanted an experienced flight engineer so I went with him, didn’t I? And, er, when each flight commander wanted their first trip on the Halifax, who was the flight engineer? So — and then I went down, down the list until I probably flew with each pilot on their first trip and, er, I was an instructor, not what I intended to be. But anyway, I ended up with a total of fifteen trips and Pathfinders started. Well, the Canadian crew, they wanted go down — the Canadian, er, pilot and navigator wanted to go to Pathfinders, they wanted to volunteer for Pathfinders. Their flight engineer didn’t and the silly bloke had talked me into joining him so that’s how I left 102 Squadron and went to thir — back to 35, on Pathfinders this time, and that’s how I got into Pathfinders. As I men— said I’d done fifteen ops on 102 and 35 when this Canadian talked me into going to Pathfinders, so I arrived at Pathfinders with just fifteen trips under my belt. I stayed on the Halifaxes, on Pathfinders, until I finished my double — what is called a double mission. A mission is norm— for most of the main force was thirty trips and then Pathfinders, when you volunteered to join Pathfinders, you vol— volunteered to do a double mission. A double mission was forty-five trips. In fact, I did forty-seven on Halifaxes, and then I was screened and I went to the Navigation Training Unit of Pathfinders, and there’d been a bit of problem on 7 Squadron. They’d lost their CO and a couple of flight commanders and all sorts of the top brass. They came to the Navigation Training Unit and wanted a, er, bit of strength back in 7 Squadron and I was asked to volunteer. I’d been screened for a couple of weeks by then so I went back to, um, onto Pathfinders with 7 Squadron. The only thing was when I got to 7 Squa— well I knew before I went they were flying Lancasters. Well I’d flown in a Lancaster once and I’d read the book, so I joined 7 squadron with no formal training at all, having read the pilot’s notes, and I stayed on 7’s, um, Pathfinders, eventually did another sixty-one ops on, um, Lancasters, but giving me a grand total of a hundred and eight, which is ridiculous. Nobody should do that [slight laugh]. I don’t know how I did it. I know I changed — and I mentioned on 102, I flew with every Tom, Dick, and every flight commander’s CO. That gave me a number of different skippers. I then went back, went onto Pathfinders and I did, I think I did another thirty with this, er, Canadian crew I went with, and I did some odd ones and then the trouble started. They’d discovered 102 Squadron had put me up for a commission, because they didn’t commission flight engineers early on, because when I saw Wally Lashbrook, who was the instructor, there called me in and said, ‘What do you think about taking a flight — a commission’. I said, ‘Don’t be silly. They don’t commission flight engineers’. He said, ‘Well maybe they’re going to. Would you — can I put you forward?’ And I said, ‘Yeah, why not?’ Well, actually, I did ask him what he thought because I’m a Halton brat. I went to Halton when I was fifteen and the flight commander was Wally Lashbrook and he was a Halton brat, so on his advice I said, ‘Yes OK. Put me in for the commission’, which led to the situation. I was, I was down on Pathfinders, they didn’t know anything about commissioned flight engineers and I was called in to the adjutant, ‘What did you do for an interview at the Air Ministry. What’s that for?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Wait and see’. Anyway, I was on ops one night, er, and I had — was due to go to Air Ministry the next morning. OK, so down at, um, Gravely, which is very close to London. It’s in Huntingdonshire and the railway station not far away. So anyway, I did the trip, came back, went in in the uniform, changed, um, into the barracks, changed into my best blue, had a wash and a shave, and caught the train to London. Which meant I then had to go in for this interview with Air Ministry. OK. Well, I’d been up all night remember, and they called me in and, um, one of those who, who looked at me said, ‘Where were you last night lad?’ So I gave him the name of the target. After that, the interview was awkward [laugh]. Anyway, so I got through that alright and I went back to the Squadron. Seven weeks later I’m — the adjutant called me in and he said, ‘I don’t know how this happened. You’ve been commissioned’. I said, ‘Yeah, I thought I might’. He said, ‘You’d better go and get a uniform’. So I went up to London to, er, one of the tailors, bought myself a uniform, go back. I’m a pilot officer now, yes, and they called me in again. ‘We’ve only got [unclear] for a flight lieutenant? You’ll have to be a flight lieutenant’, so I’d been a pilot officer for several days. Back to London, get some more stripes on my uniform [laugh], so I was rather quickly a flight lieutenant and then got a job and there was obviously a flight engineer needed, which again meant flying with all sorts of odd bods, which again meant I went over, way over the odds. I flew with people. I, I flew with Hank Malcom, the Canadian I mentioned, I did thirty trips with him. That was alright. Later on, I flew with a Welshman called Davies, came from Swansea, I did thirty trips with him. As I say I did all these thirty trips.
AP: What about Cheshire. Do you remember Cheshire much?
ES: Cheshire was my first flight commander on 35 Squadron. Didn’t like him very much, never did, but, um —
AP: And Lancasters, any particular missions that you remember, operations that stick out?
ES: Very difficult. I can’t remember where it was, one time over the Ruhr Valley. I didn’t enjoy life. We came — I think we’d been to Berlin, and on the way back we got a bit off course, er, as far as I can remember, we’d lost an engine or something over Berlin, probably this oil stuff, and I started it again but we got the — radio, distant reading radio compass was not, distant reading compass, sorry, er, was not reading very accurately and keeping on course had been difficult, and instead of coming, er, from Berlin, just round the corner of the Happy Valley, er, probably between Essen and Aachen, and cutting through that way, got a bit off course and found myself over the Ruhr. There wasn’t a raid on the Ruhr, just us odd bods coming back from Berlin, and they did rather catch us in their searchlights and flak for quite a long time. That was the one of the worst occasions with the enemy opposition, where it wasn’t so much that we were being shot at and were being illuminated by searchlights, we couldn’t get out of the damn thing for about twenty minutes, dashing around. I thought we’re never going to get out of that but anyway, er, Hank put the aeroplane in all sorts of manoeuvres and we got out of it. But that was one of the worst occasions, not when we were caught over the target but caught got off course on the way back. That always the danger, you expected to be shot at over the target but you tried to avoid it enroute there and back. We hadn’t on that occasion. It was one of the worst trips anyway as far as —
AP: Any raids in Northern France and Holland? Any raids there in Lancasters?
ES: Just before D-Day, we were doing all sorts of silly things. I had, I had the dis— disputed honour of actually acting as master bomber on one of the raids on a little, er, airfield in northern France. What’s the name of it? I can’t think of the name at the moment. I was flying with a Welshman on this occasion and they wanted — round about D-Day, there were all sorts of little raids, but they needed a master bomber on a very small airfield and they suddenly decided that this skipper’s Welsh accent would not do. So I was then, er, told to do the broadcast over the target, drop the bombs and sort of encourage people to come down and bomb the target, tell them what to bomb. The cloud, cloud base was low. We got down low, we could see the target, I got my markers on the target. Could I persuade anybody else to come down and do it? No, they were all bombing from way up, not doing very well anyway. We lost two aircrafts on that f — but I was actually — I think it was the only occasion when a flight engineer held the microphone and acted as master bomber and told them where to bomb. [unclear] have a change.
AP: All those operations that you flew, did — I’m guessing you must have seen other aircraft being shot down?
ES: Oh yeah of course we did.
AP: I mean, one of the things I’m trying to describe to people is what it was like when you were flying in all that stuff, what you saw, what people said, what they felt.
ES: It was very difficult early on, um, you got the odd one. Usually, they caught fire and went down in flames and some parachutes would come out. You hoped more did. Later on, when the — towards the end, the Germans had developed this — what did they call them? Musical chairs, which was the night fighters were equipped, er, with upward firing guns in the top of the fuselage at an angle and they did not use tracer. The idea was to fly on radar low down where you couldn’t be — where there was less chance of being seen by the top gunner or the rear gunner, come up below the aircraft, and when you were in the right position, climb fairly steeply and let the, er, cannons into the belly of the bomber. Very good idea. We’d had it years ago. When I was at Boscombe Down many years ago, we had a Boston which had been modified with, um, like bomb doors on the top of the fuselage and the bomb doors opened and there was four, er, machine guns pointing upwards, just like musical chairs, only there were only threes and we never developed it, but the Germans did. That was, that was one of the games the RAF definitely lost. My advantage, having before I started learning to fly as a flight engineer, I’d been an ordinary fitter who wanted to be a pilot and fortunately, in my postings, I was posted to Boscombe Down, which meant I saw far more different aircraft than most people when they came out of Halton and, um, I worked on many, including the first bloody, er, Stirling bomber, four engine. They had a position for a flight engineer. ‘It’s your aeroplane. You fly’. That’s how I learnt, you know, to start flying. I didn’t want to be a flight engineer, I’d been trying to be a pilot, but I was only an AC1, so I saw the flight commander and he said, ‘You’ve got to be an OAC to go on the pilot’s course’. So I did the trade test and I was a — I passed it. I was an OAC. Good. Go back to the flight commander, ‘I want a pilot’s course’. ‘You have to be an OAC for six months then you can come and see me again’. Five months later, ‘Oh hello Corporal Stocker. [unclear] You can’t be a pilot now. You’re too valuable. You’re a corporal fitter’. OK. I’m working in the hangar one day and the flight clerk comes out, and he’s got an AMO, he says, ‘The flight commander thinks you might like to look at this’. It was the first AMO asking — Air Ministry Order — asking for volunteers to fly as flight engineer. If you are a corporal or a sergeant in, in the group 1 trade, you can volunteer to be a flight engineer. I think the flight commander had a clue that I might be interested in that and so I went back with the flight clerk [laugh] and volunteered [laugh], and a few weeks later, I was on an air gunner’s course and that’s how I became a flight engineer. I don’t know how I did it. But anyway, the basic thing is I did chance my arm rather more than most and got away with it with a hundred and eight raids. How the hell I did it, I don’t know, but I’m lucky. But that’s how it happened. The first flight commander was Flight Lieutenant Cheshire. Oh dear. What can I add to that?
AP: Let’s, let’s jump to that, the island of Walcheren. Can you talk about that raid?
ES: Oh, one of the most interesting raids. The war was nearly over, there weren’t — there wasn’t a great deal of opposition anywhere and then they wanted to sink the Walcheren. The island of Walcheren was at the mouth of the Scheldt and was really guarding the entrance to northern Germany. They’d tried to get across — there’d been an unsuccessful attempt by the Army to do a landing on the, er, south coast of Walcheren Island. They lost a lot of soldiers and then they decided they might be better to — for a frontal attack, but they need to get the Hun out of the way, er, so we were — I was bomb aimer with the master bomber. The master bomber was Group Captain Peter Cribb. He was on thirty. He took over from Cheshire as flight commander of the 35 Squadron way back in 4 Group. Anyway he was the master bomber. I was his bomb aimer and we went over to Walcheren Island. Oboe had put down a marker on the sea shore and we put another marker beside it, and then we were getting, I think it was sixty aircraft every twenty minutes. I’m not sure about that number, it might have been less, and we directed them on to this markers right on the sea shore and we managed to breach the dy— the dyke and the sea water went through and started flooding the island of Walcheren. There was an AK-AK battery on the other side of the town from where we were, er, which fired the odd shots, but we had some thousand pound bombs, a couple, four or something, so between two raids, I did a sharp turn to port and I dropped my fourth one thousand pounder in the vicinity of the AK-AK battery, and had the good fortune to watch the brave gu— German gunners get on their bikes and, er, ride down the island in the middle of the raid. They left us to it. So really it wasn’t — there was no real opposition there. Anyway, we carried on with our — all these little raids and gradually made the, er, dyke leak and the island was flooding behind. The last raid, the last, um, batch of bombers we were getting were from 617 Squadron, they had their tallboys they [unclear] at that time. Well, we looked at the dyke and the sun and the sea was going in, and the skipper called them up and said, ‘Go home. We don’t need you’, which was for Pathfinders was a not idea because Pathfinders and 5 Group, which was Cochrane’s private air force, were not really the best of friends. Cochrane didn’t approve of Pathfinders and Don Bennett, who ran Pathfinders, didn’t really approve of Cochrane, because Cochrane had never actually been on a raid. Our AOC, Air Vice Marshall Donald Bennett, had [emphasis] been on a raid. He’d been shot down in Norway. He knew, he knew the score. That made the difference. He had a different outlook. But, um, actually yes, it was an interesting raid and when I was working in Holland after the war we did, I did go back there with my wife and we went and had a look and, yes, there’s a nice little puddle where we’d broken the dyke and there was a bit of sand round the edge and somebody had opened a café there, so we got somebody in business anyway. They set up a committee to evaluate the value of Bomber — what was happening with Bomber Command and they came to this awful conclusion that how a few bombs arrived within ten miles of the target. There was obviously a fault there and I having — this was the impression I had from my very first raid on Essen, that the accuracy with which they found the target was pathetic. And as a result of that, there was a great deal of conversation at the top end of Bomber Command and the Air Ministry what to do about it. Butcher Harris was not keen on the idea of a, an elite, um, a special force, special squadrons who were experienced and could lead the way. He said it was a sort of elitism. We don’t want elitism in Bomber Command. Certain people could see that this was the way to go, er, but Harris was overruled by C and C I suppose, I don’t know which one it was, and was told to look at the idea of an elite force, er, they eventually came up with the conclusion they’ll have with a special force. Initially they took — each group was asked to provide one squadron for this special force, so we ended up initially with Pathfinders with a hodgepodge of squadrons. There was one Whitley Squad–, no not one Whitley, one Wellington Squadron, there was a Stirling Squadron number 7, er, there was a Halifax Squadron 35, and they were put together as a, as an elite force. They had to find a CO. Don Bennett was in with — the main, main problem was navigation. Don Bennett was a well-known navigator; he was the only officer in the Air Force with a first class navigator certificate to start with. He’d already proved himself as navigator by flying the Maia Composite from Scotland to South Africa by himself. Just — all he had on board was a wireless operator. He was an experienced navigator. He’d started in — had already early on in the war started the transatlantic ferry. They used to fly — put Hudson bombers from America into boxes and put them on a ship to come Am— to England. Don Bennett was recruited really by BOAC to do, er, to do something about it and he started the transatlantic ferry by leading the first formation of bomb— Hudson bombers across the Atlantic to England and started the transatlantic ferry. He was then a civilian in the BOAC. He had been in the Air Force before the war so he started the Pathfinders and he put it together, because he had — he was the only AOC that they could find who had experience of flying bombers, who was an experienced navigator, who proved that he could navigate and, um, that’s how Pathfinders started, but it made a hell of a difference. We started first of all, trying to mark — how to mark the targets. All sorts of things were tried but Pathfinders gradually developed very, very rapidly, um, initially as this bunch of squadrons, then it became a Group and, er, ended up as quite a big air force of its own. At the end of the war, Pathfinders’ Group, number 8 Group, had over a hundred aircraft, it had a hundred Mosquitos for the late night strikers. It was an enormous empire but, um, it did the job. We found ways of finding the target, we found ways of marking the target, and we ended up in a situation where we could, if the weather — in reasonable conditions, we could hit any target anywhere. The development of the master bomber, which started with the Peenemünde raid, was a big step forward. It gave us some control, where the people, er, the other people who may be on their first or second trip and never seen enemy fire before a chance to be guided, and given some encouragement, what was going on, what to do. That was a big step forward. It was interesting to live thorough it all from, er, hit and miss and, er, precision bombing helped it.
Dublin Core
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Interview with Ted Stocker. One
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Andrew Panton
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-07-26
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AStockerE150726, PStockerEE1601
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:02:00 audio recording
Description
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Ted flew 108 operations (47 on Halifaxes and 61 on Lancasters), flying as part of 35 Squadron Pathfinders. He was awarded a Distinguished Service Order.
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Vivienne Tincombe
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
7 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
bale out
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
flight engineer
fuelling
H2S
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Oboe
Pathfinders
RAF Halton
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/11703/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/11703/AStockerEE150731.1.mp3
1ba2b80b055698b24ec2f4ad054d8be7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Tell us about yourself, Ted. Who you are and how got joining the Air Force?
TS: Oh, dear me. My name is Edward Ernest Stocker but for brevity call me Ted Stocker. I was born in August 1922 and I joined the Air Force at the age of fifteen in January 1938. I became, I went to Halton and became one of the Trenchard Brats. And from then on I was in the Air Force and life took it’s natural course with the war on.
[recording paused]
AP: On, on the aircraft. If you could talk a little bit about that, please.
TS: I started off as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. The Halifax really did need a flight engineer because the aircraft was originally designed to bomb Germany from advanced bases in France. The idea, before we really got into operations was we’d bomb, although you got our bombs in England then flew to France, refuelled so that we could reach Germany. Of course, when a little thing like Dunkirk arrived it was no longer feasible. So they modified the aircraft. Added extra fuel tanks. Eventually we had four fuel tanks in the Halifax. They kept squeezing little tanks in all over the place. And at the end of the time we had seven tanks on each side. And the management of those fuel tanks to keep the centre of gravity where it belonged and to ensure that they didn’t run out of fuel at an inappropriate moment kept the flight engineer extremely busy. That was great. But that’s how the Halifax developed and that’s how the duties of the flight engineer developed. Very much looking at fuel and obviously watching the engine instruments. Looking for any unfortunate things. The Halifax had very early Merlins. Merlin engines. Which were subject to internal coolant leaks which often resulted in having to switch the engine off. This again was the duty of the flight engineer to watch for this. When we changed over to the Lancasters only I did forty seven trips on Halifaxes. When we changed over to the Lancaster it was a whole different ball game. Now we had only four main tanks. Two in each wing and a little tank. Fuel management was simple and straightforward. The engines were Packard built Merlins which were not, they had a revised design of the engine cylinder block which reduced the chance of internal glycol leaks. So we didn’t have the trouble with the engine overheating or having to shut the engine down. The Lancaster was a whole better ball game. But so much so that on the Lancaster really the flight engineer was not fully occupied. Apart from being, acting as a cheap co-pilot. Remember, it takes a lot of time and money to train a co-pilot. You can get a flight engineer for a much lower price. Put him in the right hand seat. He can act as the co-pilot anyway. And that’s really how the flight engineers role developed.
[recording paused]
TS: But when you get on to the Lancasters where there isn’t the problems with the engines that we had on the Halifax the flight engineer was not as fully occupied. And Don Bennett, the chief of Pathfinders, Air Vice Marshall DCT Bennett had said that he wanted two navigators on a nav table and the flight engineers — he can still learn to drop the bombs. And so, on Pathfinders the flight engineer ended up very much as being both the flight engineer, and co-pilot and bomb aimer all wrapped into one. But there was duties spread through the flight. That made the flight engineer’s job much more interesting. Dropping, aiming bombs, particularly when you got on to flying with master bombers where you were putting the markers down it was a much more interesting job than as it had been originally on Lancasters.
AP: So if we talk a little bit about the actual Pathfinding squadron and what they did.
TS: Pathfinders were that developed. I was, I didn’t, I joined Pathfinders the month they started. I didn’t do the first Pathfinder raid but I did do the second Pathfinder raid and I stayed on Pathfinders until the end of the war. And I saw the developments as they happened. As I say one of the early ones was getting H2S. We had a decent radar picture. The important thing, the techniques developed we ended up basically with three basic types. There’s the visual mark. Visual marking where everything was done by looking at the ground, aided by the radar of course, which was the straightforward one. Then of course we had the problem with cloud cover and a load of other [unclear] which was led by radar particularly when we got, when Oboe came in close range. Oboe markers can be put down from the UK very, very accurately. And when we were outside radar range we had to develop radar assisted bombing which was bombing through cloud. Which worked up to a point. The worst, the most trickiest one was when we had very high cloud. No chance of seeing the ground at all. And we’d use these sky markers which were flares which burst at a very high altitude and gave a false aiming point. Obviously if you’re aiming for something in the clouds, on top of the clouds, the bomb doesn’t know it. It wants to go underneath. It goes through the marker, carries on falling so the sky markers, as they were called were very tricky for the main force to use because they were aiming at something and their bombs were going to hit something else. They were the three basic types. There were various variations on those three. But basically you’ve got the visual marking, you’ve got radar assisted marking and you had sky marking. They were three basic types.
AP: Could you talk a little bit about H2S and Oboe? What they are.
TS: Oh, H2S was the, if you look at a picture of a Lanc you’ll see a bulge. A bulge underneath. That conceal is made of material which is, does not interfere with radar. A fibreglass substance. And inside that is a scanner going around painting a picture on a cathode ray tube of what it can see underneath. It’s a very crude form of television really. It shows the sea and the land as separate colours. It shows built up areas where you’ve got a lot of windows and things. Windows and roofs and the sloping of roofs deflects the radar and that gives a different sort of picture. But that was the H2S which we were very lucky. We were one of the first. Pathfinders had H2S before it was in general use. And the other one I mentioned was Oboe. Oboe is, was originally used for Mosquitoes because it depends on line of sight from the UK and involves the development of the system the Germans had used to bomb Coventry where you have radio beams. It was the British development. It was more accurate and involved the bombs actually being released automatically by the Oboe system. They were, the pilot flew down one radio beam and when he crossed the other beam the bombs were released automatically. It was extremely accurate. We’re talking in sort of a hundred metres radius. It was very very good. Unfortunately, the range was limited by this line of sight. The Mosquito was, because it was able to fly higher than Lancs ever could could take the Oboe bombing further into the mainland of Germany. Or France anyway. After D-Day they put mobile Oboe stations on the continent and Oboe was able, range was able to move forward. We did have Oboe in a Lanc on 582 Squadron. And I went on the first Lancaster Oboe raid with Group Captain Grant who was the squadron commander of 109 Squadron. The Oboe squadron. And we did the first Oboe raid over France from a Lancaster. I must admit I did not enjoy it because having put Oboe into the thing the pilot and the Oboe operator had to have their own intercom system but nobody else could use it. So, about a few minutes before the target, something like six or seven minutes from the target the rest of the crew were off. Off intercom. And you just flew straight and level to the target. Fighters coming in. Ack ack. So what? You couldn’t tell anybody [laughs] That’s the bit of Oboe I didn’t like on Lancasters. But it worked. Fortunately, I did the first one to prove that it could. After that I let somebody else come [laughs]
AP: And this, this is just marking. You weren’t dropping any bombs at this stage were you?
TS: No. We were dropping the markers. The target indicators.
AP: Dropping the markers. Yeah. Yeah.
TS: The target indicators. I should have explained. The target indicators were a giant firework. You had a, the shell of a one thousand pound bomb. Inside it were a can, little canisters which were ignited when the bomb burst and they put down coloured candles. They burst normally at about three thousand feet over the target. So there was the cascade of coloured candles falling from the bomb over, over the target area. Hopefully over the target itself. This gave the main force an aiming point. Something to aim at. A coloured cluster of fireworks. Well the, if they were put down by Oboe initially they were in one colour. To keep the marking going because Oboe could only operate one aircraft at a time over the target we were main, on Pathfinders, came over with different colour markers and tried to aim at the original aiming point to keep the mark alive for the rest of the raid. You’ve got to remember some of the raids took us twenty or thirty minutes. The Pathfinders job when there was an Oboe raid was to keep the initial marking going on the same aiming point.
AP: Was this particular colours? Did they use particular colours?
TS: Oh yes. Primary. Usually the main colour was red. The primary marker was so that the master bomber could say, ‘Bomb the red TIs.’ When we’re backing up we were usually backing above a green. And there were yellows used for some things. Because we also used markers on the turning points on the, on the way in. When you’re going into a target you don’t go straight in because the Germans can see which way, where you are aiming. You do a dog leg or something. Well, to mark a turning point we used markers dropped by Pathfinders on the turning point. And they were usually yellow or something like that. Not, not reds. And that was basically what those TIs, as we called them. TIs. Target Indicators. They’re just giant fireworks but they seemed to work and they were visible from a long way away.
AP: And while you were doing this you’ve got ack ack and night fighters and all sorts of things.
TS: Well, you do. They do try and distract you a little [laughs] The gunners are on the, on the ball the whole time. Swinging their turrets and watching for everything. Providing the fighters are seen and are not too close before you see them the thing you’d do, there was a escape manoeuvre.
AP: Yeah.
TS: Corkscrew was the usual. The standard procedure. If you got a fighter high on the port side you corkscrew port down. If it was up on the starboard you corkscrew starboard down. If they were low down you still did a corkscrew. The corkscrew is just you are following the path of the corkscrew which keeps the gunner, the enemy’s shot on a constant deflection shot. And what you are trying to do really is just spoil his deflection shot. The deflection is changing the whole time in to the corkscrew. Hopefully that happens to miss. Ack ack. Well, it comes and goes. If it was close you could sometimes hear it rattling on the fuselage.
AP: What about predicted flak? Predicted flak.
TS: Well, predicted flak is, most of it is over the target they try to talk about predicted flak. But once they got the course in to the target they start filling the sky on the run in with flak from all sorts. Sometimes it gets you. Sometimes it doesn’t.
AP: Okay.
[recording paused]
AP: Okay. About the camera now. Right. Okay. Go
TS: You asked about how many raids I did. Well, I did forty seven on Halifaxes and then I, that is because on Pathfinders you didn’t do a single raid you did a double raid of forty five. Well, being me of course I did a couple extra. But my odd career really basically goes back to my second trip. The first trip I did was in a Halifax to Essen. Which is a good starting point. You know. They don’t come much tougher. And that was okay except I came back with a view that how the hell did he know we’d bombed Essen? But that was because early on in the war finding a target was a hell of a hit and miss affair. But anyway, for the next trip I was put on a raid to go to Nuremberg in a Halifax which at that time we’d only got five tanks. And I got together with the navigator and said, ‘Well, how many air miles are we doing?’ Because when you start thinking about fuel consumption in an aeroplane well fuel consumption depends on which way you’re flying. If you’re going downwind you go a lot farther than you do upwind. So work on air miles. That’s the number of miles you go through the air. Anyway, the navigator gave me the air miles and I looked at the fuel load and said, ‘It ain’t enough.’ And so being a cheeky eighteen or nineteen year old flight engineer freshly promoted from corporal to sergeant I went up to the squadron commander. The squadron leader in those days, and said, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip.’ To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing.’ Silly lad. He believed anything. But anyway we were a little short on fuel. In fact we crashed nearer to base than anybody else in the squadron. We actually ran out of fuel about three or four miles short of the airfield and came down in an untidy heap. I had given an ETA, estimated time of arrival, of no fuel. And the navigator had given an ETA of when we should be at base. Well, the navigator had us at base about five, five, four or five minutes before I said we’d run out of fuel. There was a little matter of errors. I was right. We did run out of fuel when I said but we hadn’t reached base. It was just down there ahead of us. And when I said that we were going to run out two engines on one side stopped. One side stopped developing any power so I went down the back and put on the cross feed pipe which put, the empty tank was running the two port engines to supply fuel to the two starboard engines so we had four engines running for a moment. And the skipper, in his wisdom said, ‘It’s time to get out of here.’ Gave the order to bale out. Seemed sensible at the time. Well, it was sensible except the fact we were carrying a co-pilot who was a captain from Whitleys, the other squadron on the station and the Whitley is very poorly heated. So, if you fly in a Whitley you put all the full Irvin suit on. That sheepskin lined leather suit, jacket and trousers. And he was a tall boy. Quite a well-built lad. And so the first thing that happened when skip said bale out, the navigator lifts his table up, pulled the hatch up from underneath him, puts his parachute on and jumps. He’s gone. The wireless operator, Len Thorpe was underneath the skipper’s seat on the port side and he was getting ready to go. And this great big teddy bear of a man with his Irvin suit on, oh he didn’t jump out. He probably couldn’t jump with all that on top of him. And he sat on the back of the hatch and put his feet out. That was alright. And then he tried to put his head out but it’s a very small hatch. From my position in the co-pilot’s seat I could see his backside sat up in the air but he wasn’t going anywhere. So, I wondered what the hell we’d do. Len Thorpe, down there, he looks and he’s [unclear] he summed it up quite quickly. He pointed me to go back a bit. So, I had to move back a bit so that Len could get up on the top step. And then they jumped. He jumped. And two bodies disappeared out of the escape hatch. Well, my, because of the Battle of Britain the pilots in Bomber Command sacrificed their pilot ‘chutes to Fighter Command for the Battle of Britain and the pilots in Bomber Command flew with a observer type ‘chute which was a harness. There was a separate pack for the harness. For the parachute itself. And there was a stowage under the seat I was standing on which contained the pilot’s parachute. The flight engineer’s job, when the two have gone out or three have gone out the nose is go under that there and get the pilot’s parachute. Great. But I went down there. Oh dear. The elastics to hold the pilot’s parachute were not fastened and the pilot’s parachute must have been sucked out with everything else. It wasn’t there. So I went back up to the step. I’ve got my parachute on by this time myself. I go back and sit and said to the skipper, ‘Sorry. Your parachute’s gone.’ About that time all four engines stopped and so we were obviously going down. So I jettisoned the escape hatch over the pilot’s head so that he could get out and then I went back at midships where there was another hatch in the roof with a ladder up to it. And I, in fact opened the hatch and was pushing it back when we hit the ground the first time. And I was flung forward against this ladder and I found myself cuddling a ladder. We were in the air temporarily until we came down for the second time. And we slithered along a bit and came to a rest. So I go, with the ladder handy, I’m gripping it. Up on to the roof and there’s the skipper coming out. I think we might be the only two left. The rear gunner, he’s gone around the back. All he had to do was turn his turret around and jump. Oh no. Our rear gunner suffered from night blindness which is not a great help for a rear gunner. He couldn’t find his harness, his parachute anyway. So, he was still inside the fuselage looking for his parachute when we hit the ground. We didn’t know this of course. So, we got out. Skipper and I were on the wing and about to jump off and wondering about all these cows running and doing the war dance around the aeroplane. And a voice from behind us says, ‘Wait for me.’ It’s our rear gunner. He never did find his parachute. And so the three of us ran to the edge of the, edge of this field dodging all these terribly upset, terribly upset cows and got to the edge of the airfield. Got a little fire on each engine. Glycol and stuff. Nothing serious. As we were stood there, and then as I said we were very close to the airfield and two ambulances turned up. And then the CO turned up. He had a quick word with the skipper. He kept well away from me [laughs] and I think after that he’d got the idea that maybe flight engineers do understand a bit about aeroplanes. I’ll only say this. Many years later squadron leaders, our wing commander and squadron, and CO of the 35 Squadron in Pathfinders. I’m the flight engineer leader, a flight lieutenant and when the CO wanted to fly guess who he took as his flight engineer? [laughs]
AP: [unclear]
TS: But anyway we’d landed. We were in an untidy heap and this, of course this is, everything’s organised in the RAF. So there was a crash. Okay. Two ambulances turned up so because we hadn’t ,we were not really in walking distance of the base and so we go over to one of these ambulances, ‘Can you give us a lift back to the airfield?’ ‘No. I’m bodies only.’ ‘Oh’ [laughs ], ‘Catch the other one. You’re not injured are you?’ ‘No.’ I can’t lie. How am I injured? Eventually they sent out a guard party to look after the wreck overnight and one of those they, they, we got the driver out and he ran us back to the airfield. Another interesting thing is of the three blokes that baled out two of them ended up on the same train. The one had landed next to the railway, stopped a goods train and sort of, the driver said, ‘Well, what do you want?’ ‘I baled out.’ ‘Oh get in the guard‘s van. We’re going in to York,’ sort of thing. He goes a little bit further on. There’s another bloke waiting with a parachute waving. So he stopped, he said, ‘Your mate’s in the guard van.’ The other fellow hadn’t get a lift with the train but with the bloke with a car. He got back. Anyway, they all got back safely. The three got back safely. But that was my first endeavour. Rather gave me a reputation I think. Because the result of that I think was that when the Halifaxes were moved we were on the first Halifax squadron. When another squadron was going to get Halifaxes they had to be trained on how to fly a Halifax. The usual way was to take an experienced crew from one squadron, move them to the other squadron with one Halifax and they were to train the new squadron. Well, a good idea. So they got a squadron. 102 Squadron got, was going to get Halifaxes. And so they sent a qualified crew. Except I think the CO wanted to see the back of me. I’d only done four trips. I was not an experienced, but I was the flight engineer on the experienced crew that went to 102 Squadron. There I was. I had done four trips. I was on this new squadron teaching people how to, all about the Halifaxes. That’s how my odd career, career started. Because I was there and I was the only experienced flight engineer when the new squadron commander was going to do his first trip on the Halifax he wanted an experienced flight engineer. So, I went with him didn’t I? And when each flight commander wanted their first trip on the Halifax who was the flight engineer? So, and then I went down, down the list until I’d flown pretty well with every pilot on their first trip. And I was an instructor. Not what I’d intended to be. But anyway I ended up with a total of fifteen trips and Pathfinders started. Well, the Canadian crew, they wanted to go down, the Canadian pilot and navigator wanted to go to Pathfinders. They wanted to volunteer for Pathfinders. Their flight engineer didn’t and the silly bloke had talked me into joining him. So, that’s how I left 102 Squadron and went to, back to 35. On Pathfinders this time. That’s how I got onto Pathfinders. Okay.
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AP: The number of ops. Ops you did.
TS: Okay. Well, as I said I had done fifteen ops on 102 and 35 when I, this Canadian talked me into going to Pathfinders. So, I arrived at Pathfinders with just fifteen trips under my belt. I stayed on Halifaxes on Pathfinders until I finished my double, what was called a double mission. A mission is normally, for most of the main force was thirty trips. And then Pathfinders, when you volunteered to join Pathfinders you volunteered to do a double mission. A double mission was forty five trips. In fact I did forty seven on Halifaxes. And then I was screened and I went to the Navigation Training Unit of the Pathfinders and there was a bit of a problem on 7 Squadron. They’d lost the CO and a couple of flight commanders and all sorts of the top brass. They came to the Navigation Training Unit. They wanted a bit of strength back in 7 Squadron. I was asked to volunteer. I’d been screened for a couple of weeks by then. So I went back to, on to Pathfinders with 7 Squadron. The only thing was when I got to 7 is, well I knew before I went they were flying Lancasters. I’d flown in a Lancaster once. I’d read the book. So I joined 7 Squadron with no formal training at all having read the pilot’s notes. And I stayed on 7, on Pathfinders. Eventually did another sixty one ops on Lancasters. Giving me a grand total of a hundred and eight which is ridiculous. Nobody should do that. I don’t know how I did it. I know I changed, and I mentioned on 102, I flew with every Tom, Dick and every flight commander, CO and that gave me a number of different skippers. I then went back. Went on to Pathfinders and I did, I did, I think I did about thirty with this Canadian crew I went with. I did some odd ones. And then the turmoil started that they discovered 102 Squadron had put me up for a commission. Because they didn’t commission flight engineers early on. Because when I saw Wally Lashbrook, who was the instructor there called me in and said, ‘What do you think about taking a flight, a commission.’ I said, ‘Don’t be silly. They don’t commission flight engineers.’ He said, ‘Well maybe they’re going to. Would you? Can I put you forward?’ I said, ‘Yes. Why not?’ Well, actually, I did, I did ask him what he thought because I’m a Halton Brat. I went to Halton when I was fifteen. And the flight commander was Wally Lashbrook and he was a Halton Brat. So, on his advice I said, ‘Yes. Okay. Put me in for a commission,’ which led to the situation that I was on 102, I was now on Pathfinders. They didn’t know anything about commissioned flight engineers. I called in to the adjutant and he said, ‘They want you for an interview at the Air Ministry. What’s that for?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Wait and see.’ Anyway, I was on ops one night and I was due to go to Air Ministry the next morning. Okay. So, down at Graveley, which is very close to London. It’s in Huntingdonshire and the railway station not far away. So anyway I did the trip, came back. Went in the uniform. Changed in the barrack. Changed in to my best blue, had a wash and a shave and caught the train to London. Which meant I then had to go in for this interview with the Air Ministry. Okay. Well, I’d been up all night remember. And they called me in. And one of those looked at me and said, ‘Where were you last night, lad.’ So, I gave them the name of the target. After that the interview was a walk over [laughs] Anyway, so I got through all that alright and I went back to the squadron. Several weeks later I’m called, the adjutant called me in. He said, ‘I don’t know how this happened but you’ve been commissioned.’ I said, ‘Yeah. I thought I might.’ He said, ‘You’d better go and get a uniform.’ So, I went up to London to one of the tailors. Bought myself a uniform. Go back. I’m a pilot officer now. The adjutant, they called me in again, ‘We’ve only got a [unclear] for a flight lieutenant. You’ll have to be a flight lieutenant.’ So, I’d been a pilot officer for several days and back to London to get some more stripes on my uniform. So, I was rather quickly a flight lieutenant and I got a job. I was obviously a flight engineer leader. Which again meant me flying with all sorts of odd bods. Which again meant that I went over, way over the odds. I flew with people, I said there was Hank Malcolm the Canadian I mentioned. I did thirty trips with him. That was alright. Later on I flew with a Welshman called Davies. Came from Swansea. I did thirty trips with him. I say I did all these thirty trips.
AP: What about Cheshire? Do you remember Cheshire much?
TS: Cheshire was my first flight commander on 35 Squadron. Didn’t like him very much. Never did.
AP: And Lancasters. Any particular missions that you remember? Operations that stick out?
TS: Very difficult. I can’t remember where it was, but once over the Ruhr Valley I didn’t enjoy life. We came, I think we’d been to Berlin and on the way back we’d gone a bit off course. As far as I remember we’d lost an engine or something over Berlin. Probably this oil stuff. It started again but we got radioed, the distant reading radio compass was not — distant reading compass sorry was not reading very accurately and keeping on course had been difficult. And instead of coming from Berlin just around the corner of the Happy Valley between Essen and Aachen and cutting through that way had got a bit off course and found ourselves over the Ruhr. There wasn’t a raid on the Ruhr. Just us odd bods coming back from Berlin. And they did rather catch us in the searchlights and flak for quite a long time. That’s one of the worst occasions of enemy opposition where it wasn’t so much that we were being shot at and we were being illuminated by the searchlights. We couldn’t get out of the damned things for about twenty minutes. Dashing around. I thought we were never going to get out of that. But anyway, Hank put the aeroplane in all sorts of manoeuvres and we got out of it but that was one of the worst occasions. Not being bomb caught over the target but caught off course on the way back. That was always the danger. You, you expect to be shot at over the target but you try and avoid it on route there and back. We hadn’t on that occasion. That was one of the worst trips anyway as far as that.
AP: Any raids in Northern France and Holland? Any raids there with Lancasters?
TS: Oh just before D-Day we were doing all sorts of silly things. I had the, this disputed honour of actually acting as master bomber on one of the raids on a little airfield in Northern France. What was the name of it? I can’t think of the name at the moment. I was flying with a Welshman on this occasion. And they wanted, around about D-Day there were all sorts of little raids. They needed a master bomber on a very small airfield and they suddenly decided that the skipper’s Welsh accent would not do. So I was then told to do the broadcast over the target, drop the bombs and sort of encourage people to come down and bomb the target. Tell them what to bomb. The cloud base was low. We got down low. We could see the target. I got my markers on the target. Could I persuade anybody else to come down to do it? No. They were all bombing from way up. Not doing very well anyway. We lost two aircraft on that trip. But I was actually, I think the only occasion when a flight engineer has held the microphone and acted as master bomber and told them where to bomb. It was a, have a change.
AP: And all those operations that you flew. Did, I’m guessing you must have seen other aircraft being shot down.
TS: Yeah. Of course I did.
AP: I mean, one of the things to try and describe to people is what it was like when you were flying through all that stuff
TS: Oh well —
AP: And what you saw. What people said. What they felt.
TS: It was very difficult early on. You get the odd one. Usually they caught fire and went down in flames and some parachutes would come out. You hoped more of them did. Later on, when the, towards the end the Germans had developed this, what they called musical jazz. Which was the night fighters were equipped with upward firing guns in the top of the fuselage. At an angle. And they did not use tracer. The idea was to fly on radar low down where you couldn’t be, where there was less chance of being seen by the top gunner or the rear gunner. Come up below the aircraft and when they were in the right position climb fairly steeply and let their cannons into the belly of the bomber. Very good idea. We’d had it years ago. When I was at Boscombe Down many years ago we had a Boston which had been modified with [pause] like bomb doors on the top of the fuselage and the bomb doors opened and there were four machine guns pointing upwards. Just like musical jazz, and there were only three of these. And we never developed it but the Germans did. That was what, that was the one of the games the RAF definitely lost. The main advantage having, before I started flying as a flight engineer I’d been an ordinary fitter who wanted to be a pilot. And I was fortunate in my postings. I was posted to Boscombe Down. Which meant I saw far more different aircraft than most people when they came out of Halton. And I worked on many including the first bloody Stirling bomber. Four engine. They had a position for flight engineer. ‘It’s your aeroplane. You fly.’ That was how I learned, you know, start flying. But I didn’t want to be a flight engineer. I’d been trying to be a pilot. But I was only an AC1. So I saw the flight commander. He said, ‘You’ve got to be an LAC if you want to go on a pilot’s course.’ So I did the trade tests and I got passed it and I was an LAC. Good. Go back to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I want a pilot’s course.’ ‘You have to be an LAC for six months. Then you can come and see me again.’ Five months later, ‘Oh hello Corporal Stocker,’ I goes in, ‘You can’t be a pilot now. You’re too valuable. You’re a corporal fitter.’ ‘Okay.’ I’m working in the hangar one day and the flight clerk comes up. And he’s got an AMO. He says, ‘The flight commander thinks you might look at this.’ It was the first AMO asking, Air Ministry Order, asking for volunteers to fly as flight engineer. If you’re a corporal or a sergeant in the group one trade you can volunteer to be a flight engineer. I think the flight commander had a clue I might be interested [laughs] and so I went back with the flight clerk and volunteered. And a few weeks later I was on an air gunner’s course. And that’s how I became a flight engineer. I don’t know how I did it. But anyway the basic thing is I did chance my arm rather more than most and got away with it with a hundred and eight raids. How the hell I did it I don’t know but I’m lucky. That’s how it happened. My first flight commander was Flight Lieutenant Cheshire. Oh dear. What can I add to that?
AP: Yeah. But let’s, let’s jump to that. Up the Island of Walcheren. Can you talk about that raid?
TS: Oh, one of the most interesting raids. The war was nearly over but there wasn’t a great deal of opposition anyway and they wanted to sink — the Island of Walcheren at the mouth of the Scheldt was really guarding the entrance to Northern Germany. They’d tried to get across. Across. Been an unsuccessful attempt by the army to do a landing on the south coast of Walcheren Island. They lost a lot of soldiers. And then they decided they might be better to, for a frontal attack but they need to get the Hun out of the way. So, we were, I was bomb aimer with the master bomber. The master bomber was Group Captain Peter Cribb. He had been on thirty. He took over from Cheshire as flight commander of 35 Squadron way back in 4 Group. Anyway, he was the master bomber, I was his bomb aimer and we went over to Walcheren Island. Oboe had put down a marker on the seashore and we put, put another marker beside it. And then we were getting, I think it was sixty aircraft every twenty minutes. I’m not sure about that number. It might have been less. And we directed them on to the markers right on the seashore and we managed to breach the dyke. And the sea water went through and started flooding the Island of Walcheren. There was an ack ack battery on the other side of the town from where we were which fired the odd shots but we had some thousand pound bombs. A couple. Four or something. So between two raids the sharp turn to port and I dropped my four one thousand pounders in the vicinity of this ack ack battery and had the good fortune to watch the brave German gunners get on their bikes and ride down the Island in the middle of the lake. They left us to it. So, really it wasn’t, there was no real opposition there. But anyway, we carried on with all these little raids and gradually made the dyke leak and the island was flooding behind. The last raid, the last batch of bombers we were getting were from 617 Squadron. They had their Tallboys. They were really going to knock a hole in that dyke. Well, we looked at the dyke and the sea was going in. The skipper called them up and said, ‘Go home. We don’t need you.’ Which, for the Pathfinders was always a good idea because Pathfinders and 5 Group which were Cochrane’s favourite Air Force were not really the best of friends. Cochrane didn’t approve of Pathfinders and Don Bennett who ran Pathfinders didn’t really approve of Cochrane because Cochrane had never actually been on a raid. Our AOC, Air Vice Marshall Donald Bennett had been on a raid. He’d been shot down in Norway. He knew what, he knew the score. That made the difference. He had a different outlook. But actually that was an interesting raid and when I was working in Holland after the war we did, I did go back there with my wife. And we went and had a look, and yes there’s a nice little puddle where we’d broken the dyke and there’s a bit of sand around the edge and somebody has opened a café there. So we got somebody in business anyway.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Two
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-31
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE150731, PStockerEE1601
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:52:44 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Edward Ernest Stocker (Ted) began his service with the RAF as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. He came to the attention of his Commanding Officer on his second operation, having warned before departure that they were carrying insufficient fuel to make it back to base. He was correct and he describes how some of the crew baled out before their Halifax crashed close to base with he and the pilot still on board. He joined the Pathfinders force after fifteen operations and remained with the Pathfinders throughout the war. He compares the fuel tanks of the Halifax and Lancasters, discusses the navigation aids Oboe and H2S and the process of dropping target indicators for the main bombing force to follow. He completed 47 operations on Halifaxes and then volunteered for 7 Squadron on Lancasters, completing a further 61 operations. He was commissioned as a flight lieutenant. He speaks of encountering enemy opposition whilst in action, of witnessing aircraft being shot down and directing the bombing of Walcheren Island.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Walcheren
Temporal Coverage
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1944
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military service conditions
Oboe
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/8821/PPattersonGE1502.2.jpg
38c2680d1699d350eecb4aed227391a1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/8821/PPattersonGE1501.2.jpg
66fba105a1d1ee2367331ee22cac69ab
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/8821/APattersonGE151008.1.mp3
f32cabc127e0718595b075fed6b0fc4a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Patterson, Ernie
Gilbert Ernest Patterson
G E Patterson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Patterson, GE
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-08
2019-01-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Gilbert Ernest Patterson DFM (b. 1922 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 635 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Hang on then.
EP: Can’t we just chat before you start doing that?
AM: Ok Right. Well, we can, we can, but let me just say. Just, ‘cause they need this for the recording in a minute, that my name’s Annie Moody, and I’m here on behalf of the International —
EP: Anne who?
AM: Moody.
EP: Is that what you’re —
AM: No. He’s called Gary Rushbrooke.
EP: That’s right.
GR: She wouldn’t take my name.
AM: I wouldn’t, I’d never change my name, Ernie. And I’m doing the interview for the International Bomber Command Centre, and I’m, today I’m at the house of Ernie Patterson in Darlington, and it is the 8th —
GR: Yeah.
AM: Of October 2015, and you can talk now Ernie, and what I want you to tell me, first of all, is where you were born and what your parents did, and what your background was.
[pause]
AM: See you’re not talking now, come on [laughs].
EP: I was trying to tell you I was born at —
AM: Right. Middleton St George. Tell me about that.
EP: [unclear] Road, Number 19.
AM: Right.
EP: My mum was living with her sister at the time, and she had a baby boy a month after I was born, and we were both christened at the St Lawrence’s Church which is down by Middleton One Row. Right.
AM: Right.
EP: Because — he’s died by the way, two or three years ago. That was where I was born.
AM: Right. And you were telling me that that was right near Middleton St George.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Which is now Teesside Airport, but which was a big bomber base.
EP: That was part of my working career. I helped to build which is, which was Middleton St George bomber station, and I also worked and helped to build which is now Newcastle Airport.
AM: Right.
EP: When the RAF took it over.
AM: So, you were born there. Did you have brothers and sisters?
EP: Eh?
AM: Did you have brothers and sisters?
EP: Yeah. I was one of six.
AM: Right.
EP: There’s three of us left.
AM: What did, what did your parents do?
EP: My dad was in the Boer War.
AM: Yeah.
EP: He, not the Boer War, rub that out. He was in the Battle of the Somme.
AM: First World War.
EP: And he was badly, he got badly shot up there.
AM: Right.
EP: ‘Cause I’ve been — can I jump? I left school when I was fourteen. I’ll go from there, eh?
AM: Yeah. Ok.
EP: I left school when I was fourteen, and I decided to serve my time as an apprentice joiner at fourteen, and my pay was twenty seven P a week. True that.
AM: Five and four pence.
EP: Five and ten pence.
AM: Five and ten pence.
EP: In old money.
AM: Yeah.
EP: That was then, and I was, and I was in to the deep end straightaway by putting rooves on with improvers, they were called, and when you got to twenty one in my day, you got the sack, ‘cause they had to double your pay.
AM: Right.
EP: You had to go and work for somebody else. In my working career, I’ve been a joiner all my time, which is why — and I’ve got no City and Guilds, Higher National. Nothing.
AM: So that’s what you did.
EP: Experience. I just seen it happen and I just took it all in. Mind before I built this, I built a few garages for people and that give me the incentive and this — I took it on myself. And I was working twelve hours a day some days to get. It hardly rained.
AM: Yeah. So, at fourteen —
EP: Yeah.
AM: You started off as a joiner.
EP: Apprentice joiner. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
EP: I was getting — the pay was twenty seven, you know, for forty four hours that.
AM: Blimey.
EP: That’s what it was. Twenty seven P.
AM: Did you enjoy it, Ernie?
EP: I enjoyed every work of my time of my working career.
AM: Right.
EP: And I was never out of work. I left school when I was fourteen and I worked until I was seventy eight, and I had a week off on the sick in all that time. Apart from giving the RAF four years.
AM: Four years. So why the RAF? What made you go for the RAF?
EP: I liked Brylcreem, didn’t I [laughs].
AM: What do you mean you liked Brylcreem?
EP: Well, we used to be the Brylcreem boys, weren’t we?
AM: True
EP: I used to use it, so I had to join the RAF, didn’t I?
AM: There must have been more.
EP: But what annoyed me was, I didn’t get the Defence medal because I was non-operational, such as being in the Home Guard or the Fire Service or anything. Yet I helped to build two big bomber stations. That should have counted, shouldn’t it?
AM: Right.
EP: So, you can check on that for me and get it for me. The Defence medal.
AM: Right.
EP: I was in touch with Gloucester, well you know what I mean, and this is what he came on the phone with. He said, ‘You only had two years’. Well, that was the two years when I was training in the air, how to be aircrew.
AM: Right. So, wheeling back a bit. So, when you, so you joined because you wanted to a Brylcreem boy. I’m not sure I believe that was the whole reason, but it’ll do.
EP: I had black wavy hair. I couldn’t. In the Army, you do a lot of marching don’t you? And in the Navy, I’d be seasick.
AM: Right. So, you decided to join the RAF.
EP: So, I joined the RAF. I was whipped in to the cream.
AM: You were whipped in to the cream. Where did you, where did you did you —
EP: I was deferred for a while. I was nineteen when I was called up.
AM: Right. So, what happened between eighteen and nineteen then, because I thought, weren’t —
EP: I was working in 1941, building bomber stations. Middleton St George and the satellite at Croft.
AM: Right. Tell me what you mean then. You were working there.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Working for whom?
EP: Helped to build, helped to build, working on [pause] such as Teesside there. Twelve flat rooves, you know, pitched rooves.
AM: Right.
EP: It was all shuttering, you know. We had to build —
AM: When you say you were working as a joiner? You hadn’t joined the RAF
EP: I’ve been a joiner all my life.
AM: Right. Got you.
EP: I built this place but I had no experience of brick laying. Just I’d seen them doing it.
AM: Just built it
EP: Built it.
AM: So, so from, so you started off as a joiner at fourteen.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And at eighteen you were working on the airport.
EP: 1941. When the war started in 1939 — I can take you to the pair of bungalows. I was seventeen at the time.
AM: Right.
EP: And I did all the joinery work on this bungalow for a builder who, he was working as a boss on another building firm, but he built these pair of bungalows in Darlington. Woodcrest Road. And I did everything on that, I was only seventeen then. Then when the war — that was in 1939, the day the war started. I can see it as if it was yesterday. They stopped building. You couldn’t get, you couldn’t get material to do building. They needed it for war work, didn’t they?
AM: So, what did you, so what did you do at that point?
EP: I got with a firm that was doing [pause] which is — not Middleton St George. Croft. It was a satellite of Middleton St George. I started work there as a joiner.
AM: As a joiner.
EP: It was a satellite of Middleton St George.
AM: Right.
EP: And then from there, I went to, when I got moved from there, for the same firm to Newcastle. I was lodging in Lady Park Road and it was about five shilling a week bed and breakfast at the time. Five shilling a week.
AM: All still as a joiner.
EP: I’ve never been, done anything else
AM: So, when you actually joined up with the RAF then, how old were you at that point?
EP: That was in September 1942.
AM: Right.
EP: I was nineteen, wasn’t I?
AM: You were nineteen.
EP: Work it out. Yeah.
AM: And where did you go to join up?
EP: I just got called up, didn’t I? I had to go.
AM: Right. Ah, so you got called up.
EP: You had to be registered. I had to go.
AM: But for the RAF.
EP: No, I volunteered for that.
AM: Right. So, you got —
EP: Flying was. Aircrew was voluntary.
AM: So, you got called up but you volunteered for the RAF.
EP: That’s it.
AM: Right. Ok. Got you. So, having volunteered for the RAF what happened then? What was the sequence of events?
EP: It was in the February of 1942. I can always remember. I was, I had to go to Edinburgh on an aircrew selection board.
AM: Right.
EP: And it was there they decided to make me a wireless operator. Because they do you tests and they could see that I could, they send you Morse code, and they’d send you a note or something, and they’d send you something else, and you had to say if they were both the same. That’s how they were testing you. But they found I could take Morse code in.
AM: Right.
EP: And they made me a wireless operator.
AM: Right. So where did you go?
EP: It was on my mum’s birthday. 4th of February 1942.
AM: Right.
EP: And I was accepted into the RAF then but it wasn’t until the September that I was called up, and by then, I was eighteen, nineteen or something.
AM: Right. So, so when you were called up, when did you start doing the training for the wireless operator? Where did you do that?
EP: When I was called up in the September.
AM: Right.
EP: ‘42.
AM: Still — yeah.
EP: Blackpool, wasn’t it?
AM: Was it? Blackpool.
EP: You learned the Morse code in the Winter Gardens. And they were all civilian ex-GPO bloody operators. It was Morse code then, wasn’t it? Telegrams and all that.
AM: So, what was it like then? Going, going to Blackpool.
EP: There was RAF all over. Everywhere, every, every boarding house had RAF in. You could see them at parading and that. And Woolworths, I think it was Woolworths or Marks and Spencer where they kept all your documents. We used to have to do guard duty on, on, I remember they used to say you had to learn something if you were challenged at night by the orderly officers and that, but you were protecting government property. And Burton’s was an aircraft recognition place. All these places were taken over by the RAF.
AM: Yeah.
EP: We used to do PT on the sands and we used to — where else did we go? We got [unclear], known as a pressure chamber, that happened there, but we did a route march to somewhere. Shooting ranges. You did everything in Blackpool. Then from there, I was posted to a place called Madley. This was the RAF now, Madley. I was trained to be a ground wireless op. We learned Morse code as a ground wireless operator. Then from there, I went to Yatesbury and I was trained to be an air wireless operator. Then from there, I was sent up to Evanton, up in Scotland and made an air gunner, which I was never in the turret. That was a waste of time because I was never in the turret. I was a wireless operator all the time.
AM: So, you — but your training was wireless operator, and then you were trained air gunner as well.
EP: I was a wireless operator air gunner.
AM: What was the training like at Yatesbury?
EP: Well, you flew in Proctors. Single aircraft with just a pilot and you, and you got, you got your, you had your transmitter, receiver in front of you. You had to push it back to get in, then pull it over like that., and you were experiencing air sickness and all that weren’t you? Then from Yatesbury, we get — do you want me to keep going?
AM: Yeah.
EP: Then from Yatesbury, we went to Abingdon.
AM: Yeah. You’re all over the country, criss crossing the country.
EP: Not Yatesbury. After Evanton, up in Scotland, I was a fully-fledged sergeant there. I got my brevet and then from there, I was sent to a place called Milham. Have you heard of Milham? It was an Advanced Navigator’s Flying Unit, and we flew with scrubbed navigators and wireless operators in Ansons. And from there, we were all sent to Abingdon but we all — pilots, all the —
AM: Right. So —
EP: In this big hangar.
AM: So, Abingdon is the Operational Training Unit where you crewed up.
EP: Where we crewed up.
AM: Tell me about crewing up.
EP: Well, they never said, ‘You’re flying with him’, and, ‘You’re flying with him’, you picked your own crew in there didn’t you?
AM: So how did it happen for you then? Who picked who?
EP: Well, someone just comes. I don’t know who picked me, but this I always remember, he was Jack Harold. He was a pilot and he was about a couple of years older than me at the time. What would he be? He’d be about twenty two and I was twenty, and it was just a matter of you just got together. I can’t remember how it happened, but from there, we flew down as a crew to this satellite of Abingdon, which was called Stanton Harcourt.
AM: So, who, who were the crew at that point? How many of you?
EP: There was seven of us then
AM: Were there a full seven of you?
EP: Seven of us.
AM: Right. Ok.
EP: Do you want me to give you the names?
AM: Yeah. Go on.
EP: Well, there was the pilot, that was Jack Harold which — he’s dead now. Jack Garland, the navigator. Lofty Thompson was the second navigator. Ernie Patterson, me, was the wireless operator. Snowdon was the mid-upper gunner and George Sindall was the rear gunner. And Alan Purdy was the flight engineer.
AM: Right.
EP: How about that from memory.
AM: Well done.
EP: And we trained at Acaster Malbis.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And it was there where Lady Luck was on our side for the very first time. We were sat waiting for this Whitley to come back. Is that? I think, let’s get this right first, but we were fired on the first time, we’d been flying in the daytime in this Whitley, and for some reason, we were flying in the same aircraft on the night cross-country run, and we had this crop who had an instructor pilot and an instructor wireless operator and for some reason, they changed the aircraft. The instructors wanted to fly, you know, we changed aircraft for some reason. They crashed and they were all killed. That was the first time when Lady Luck was on our side. And the second time, the second time we had that Lady — the second time, we were waiting for this Halifax to come back at Stanton Harcourt. It was doing two engine overshoots and that, and they crashed and they were all killed. Lady Luck was on our — and we were waiting for that aircraft. We were sat outside waiting for it to come back so that we could take it over, but it had engine trouble and they crashed.
AM: And this is all while you were all just doing your training.
EP: That was while we were doing — there was about nine thousand killed training.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But let me think. So, when we went on to a squadron, the pilot, you see after, we ended up at Rufforth flying Halifaxes from Whitleys. But this was Whitleys at Stanton Harcourt. But we ended up — but the next one was Rufforth near York, in the York area, and when we graduated, we’ had about forty hours on Halifaxes. We had the chance to go on to Main Force, which was 10 Group which was Melbourne or 635 Squadron, see. So, we plumped for the Pathfinder squadron.
AM: Right.
EP: And we went there for the Path. We were there a month before we did any, any op, and training all the time. And all this time we had this aircraft we were given for pre-flight training in and went to do a DI on it. Daily Inspection.
AM: Ok.
EP: And across, I did a crow flies. I walked towards the plate to it and I found this horseshoe. Threw it over me shoulder like that. I thought I’ll keep that.
AM: And you’ve still got it.
EP: It flew with me. All the flying I did from there.
AM: What was the extra training you had to do as Pathfinders then?
EP: Well, in the first place you had to do two tours. Main Force, you did one tour which was —
AM: Yeah.
EP: Well, we went on this squadron. The pilot flew with an experienced crew to give him, as second dickey, to give him extra to see what it was like before he took his own crew.
AM: Ok.
EP: So consequently, he did thirty trips. We all did twenty nine.
AM: You did twenty nine.
EP: And the pilot and the two navigators — they were posted overnight. We didn’t even get to say cheerio. But I’ve seen the pilot a couple of times since the war.
AM: So, when you got there to 635 Squadron.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Pathfinders. Can you remember your very first operation?
EP: Oh aye.
AM: Go on. Tell me about it.
EP: It was in August. We went to Stettin. You’ve heard of that haven’t you? In Poland.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And we went up. It was an eight and a half hour trip.
AM: For your very first operation.
EP: Yeah, and we lost twenty three bombers that night, I’ll always remember that. But you see with the pilot going around another crew to get experience, he done thirty trips. We had done twenty nine. But when you’re just, you’re supporting the markers.
AM: Yes.
EP: You’ve got markers on the Squadron. Certain ones. But when your brand new, you’re supporting the markers. Well, this is why, after he’d did thirty trips, him and the two navigators, well we never got off supporting those. We were supporting the markers all the time.
AM: On right.
EP: So, I got on with another crew. They’d lost their wireless operator. He was, he crashed, they crashed. That’s another story. They were on two engines coming back to this country and he ended up on one engine and heading for Woodbridge. Crash landed, and the wireless operator was killed and he’d done about eighteen trips and I’d done about the same. And I got him, I got his job.
AM: So, after about eighteen operations, you swapped over on to a different crew.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And who was that? —
EP: No. I’d done twenty nine.
AM: Oh, you’d done - right Okay
EP: I’d done twenty you see. That was a tour you see.
AM: Yeah.
EP: They liked you do two tours because you’ve got all the latest equipment.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And you’re using the equipment that the main force doesn’t have.
AM: Tell me what it was actually like Ernie. Going up and doing that. An operation.
EP: Well, you used to get the battle order going up in the mess, didn’t you? As soon as you saw your name on the bloody battle order, you couldn’t get in the toilet. You had all the toilets there, wash basins there, but you’re going to be coming and then when we come out of the toilets. The fear.
AM: Everybody?
EP: People say, ‘Were you were frightened?’ But constipation wasn’t a problem in those days.
AM: Were you frightened?
EP: Of course, you were. You were shit scared.
AM: Right.
EP: That was it. You wanted to go, that frightened feeling, you wanted to go to the toilet but you were waiting. All the toilets were occupied when the battle order went up.
AM: Right. And then what?
EP: Well, it —
AM: Describe it to me. What it was — you know, from actually getting the battle order right through, doing the operation, and coming back.
EP: Well once you knew where you were going to, you stayed over at the bomber. They didn’t let you out, and you’d maybe be over an hour, an hour and a half waiting to take off. Much of the time you did that, they’d come out, it was cancelled, and everybody went back to their billets, got changed and out for the night. You lived for the day.
AM: Why would they cancel it?
EP: Don’t know. Maybe a lot of cloud. Something.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But I survived. You know how many ops I did, don’t you?
AM: I do.
EP: How many?
AM: Well, he’s told me. Fifty.
EP: One.
AM: Fifty one.
EP: Yeah. We kept going until we all had done the fifty.
AM: But I want to know what it felt like, what it was actually like going. So, on the ones that weren’t cancelled. That’s it. You get in the plane. And then what? [pause], I know [laughs], I know you’re laughing at me but —
EP: Well, you settled down. You got daft you know; it’ll never happen to me. It’s not the [unclear]. As soon as you knew you were going, you thought, ‘Dear me, is this it?’ You know, and you couldn’t, you couldn’t get in the toilets for the [unclear].
AM: Right. Once you’re on the plane though, you set off. In — other people who have talked to us have talked about the bomber stream, but you were the Pathfinders so —
EP: Well, the elite of the Bomber Command was the Path. Now to be Master Bomber which we did five.
AM: Yeah.
EP: You’re the elite of the elite. When I got in to the second crew.
AM: Right. I’ve —
EP: And the first time — they used to mark the target. Mosquitos. There were a lot of Mosquito squadrons and they’d be the first to drop the white flares. The aiming point somewhere there. Now, you had to have a good bomb aimer and he’d pick it out like that. He’d be the first there, and I can always remember, and our call sign was Portland One and we had a deputy with us, and he was Portland Two, and main force was called Press On.
AM: Right.
EP: That was the call and he’s had to set thing up and tell the skipper, he could talk to them, and we would be approaching the target he starts. The Pathfinders. The flares would go down. Some would be on the target, some would be off, then you’d get another colour going out. Green maybe. And you’d tell them to ignore the greens, that’s off the target, and bomb the reds that’s fading away. They were still over the target area.
AM: When they dropped the flares? So, they dropped the coloured flares to mark the position.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Did they drop bombs as well?
EP: Yeah.
AM: Or did you just do flares.
EP: You make the bomb up. Yeah.
AM: You had a full bomb load as well.
EP: You carried it all, yeah, and I can always remember, sticks to my mind, full tanks. If you went on a long trip was two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallon. That, that’s full tanks which sacrificed bomb load for fuel.
AM: Yeah.
EP: If you were going on a long trip. For the Stettin raid, seven and a half hour trip, and we flew over Sweden, didn’t we? As we were flying over Sweden, they opened fire because it was a neutral country wasn’t it. Wasn’t it?
AM: Yeah.
EP: You remember that. Neutral country. And they fired up, and this pilot was listening out and he said, this person said, ‘You are’, he listened to them and they said, ‘You are flying over neutral territory’. And this pilot answered him, ‘We know’. Coming back over the same route, they opened fire again, and this pilot spoke to them and said, ‘You are three thousand feet off target’. And they says, ‘We know’. You get that.
AM: Yeah.
EP: True story that. They would open fire, they weren’t trying to hit you, they were just warning shots. ‘You are flying over neutral territory’. The pilot said, ‘We know’. Then coming back so they opened fire again, he said, ‘You are three thousand feet off target’, and they said, ‘We know’ [laughs]. They weren’t trying to hit you, just warning shots. That was that. And we lost twenty three bombers that night, I’ll always remember that. Some of them come down in the North Sea or something. But the most, the biggest raid I was on, was Hanover, when we lost thirty one bombers that night. And on Chemnitz, we lost thirty five bombers on the two raids we went to Chemnitz. But I did a Master Bomber raid on Dorsten, Kiel, Nuremberg, Osnabruck and Heligoland. How about that from memory?
AM: Wonderful.
EP: And we did two deputy Master Bombers.
AM: So, tell me what, tell me what the Master Bomber does.
EP: You go around and around on operations.
AM: You’re the first one though.
EP: Yeah. You go around, and you can contact your deputy. He’s there, he’s there with you and you’re going around and around all the time. And you see red flares went down and the, no, they might not be on the aiming points, because our bombers identified the aiming point. The target could have been in front or behind the flares or to the left, and you’d tell the skipper to speak to all the bombers. To main force. To bomb in front of the reds, or to port.
AM: And it’s the bomb aimer who drops the flares.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And it’s the bomb aimer who says whether it’s —
EP: Yeah.
AM: Hit the target or —
EP: So, then the next flares would go down. It may be green because it would confuse them and they might be way off, and you’d tell them to ignore them. The Master Bomber would speak to all the bombers and say ignore the greens, bomb the feeding reds, or the instructions he’d given for the flaming reds.
AM: And it’s the Master Bomber who’s saying that.
EP: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Not you as the wireless operator.
EP: No.
AM: I imagined it would be you as the wireless op.
EP: I had to write everything down he says, because I’m the only one who can write it down.
AM: Ok.
EP: But I’m writing everything he says down. And when I got back, Intelligence took my log book off me. They could tell how that raid went off by reading my logbook.
AM: Right.
EP: This is what I have to get to, after the raid was over, my skipper would assess the raid, whether it was successful or not. He’d tell me, and I’d be in touch with, I’d be in touch with our headquarters which was at Huntingdon. In Morse code it was 8LY, I’ll always remember that. And I put them in the picture about whether it was a success or not in bomber code. Nothing — you didn’t use plain language; it was all in code.
AM: Right.
EP: And bomber code altered you read at 6 o’clock at night. At 6 o’clock the next morning was different. The same thing meant something else, because you had to have all your information on sugar paper. Just for a bit of extra. We used to tear it off and chew it, just to make sure. It was sugar paper.
AM: Sugar paper. I’ve never heard of sugar paper.
EP: Yeah. All the information had to be destroyed, you know, if you crashed you had to eat that.
AM: Oh, you had to eat that. Literally. You’re not pulling my leg.
EP: Yeah. That was, it was sugar paper, you had to eat it.
AM: Right.
EP: And when I first went on the squadron, they gave me a bloody 38 revolver. We had a revolver each. I thought, what are you going to shoot. Who are you going to shoot with that? They’ll fire back at you, won’t they? I had, I had to draw it out. You had to go on the range and fire the bleeding thing. In those days, you fired like that. You used to go up. Nowadays it’s like this isn’t it? Two, have you noticed?
AM: So, its two handed now instead of one handed.
EP: It’s two hands now. In those days you fired like that. Two hands now.
AM: So where was the revolver in the, in the —
EP: Well, I should put mine down me flying boot.
AM: Down your flying boot.
EP: And the ammunition down that one. If you bailed out, then they’d drop out wouldn’t it [laughs].
AM: Can we go back?
EP: That used to be my biggest fear, seeing the bloody places burning. To think I’ve had to bale out into that lot.
AM: You never did though, did you?
EP: It used to frighten the bloody life out of me.
AM: Were you ever [pause] right. Right. Wheel back a minute. When you changed crews. So, at what point was it that you changed crews, and who was the new crew?
EP: That’s him there. That’s Alex Thorne.
AM: Alex. So, Alex Thorne was your pilot.
EP: He was, he was thirty three year old then.
AM: Which was old.
EP: And he’d a lot of experience.
AM: At the time.
EP: Thirty three year old and experienced, wasn’t he?
AM: Yeah.
EP: He was an instructor at one time.
AM: And who else was on the crew with you, Ernie?
EP: Sorry.
AM: Who else was on the crew with you?
EP: Well in that, I can always remember. There was Alex Thorne. Harry Parker, the navigator, the wireless — the flight engineer. Boris was the nav, so the second navigator.
AM: Boris Bressloff.
EP: Graham James — Graham Rose was the navigator. Scott was the mid-upper gunner. Jimmy Rayment was the rear gunner. How’s that? And Joe Clack was the bomb aimer.
AM: Right.
EP: I think we had two or three. I think we had three. But we were experienced crew. As I said, to a be a Master Bomber in the Pathfinders, you were the elite of the elite.
AM: And that was when you became — did the Master Bomber. So how many times, you said you were the Master Bomber five or six, I’ve forgotten.
EP: We did five. Last couple as deputy Master Bomber.
AM: And two deputies.
EP: Towards the end of our, to the end of second tour, if our squadron wasn’t supplying the Master Bomber, we were the only crew stepped down. Different squadrons would supply a Master Bomber for different raids and towards the end there — it’s in the, I’ve got my logbook there.
AM: I’ll have a look at your logbook in a minute if I may.
EP: It’s good reading in there. There’s a couple of raids we were on. Master Bomber there.
AM: Ernie’s showing me pictures here of the —
EP: Take offs. I took ten take offs in Dominies, thirteen in Proctors, fifteen and thirty five in Ansons, forty eight in Whitleys, sixteen in Halifaxes, a hundred and five in Lancasters, three in Liberators, one in Catalina, and twenty two in bloody all other aircraft.
AM: In a Catalina? What were you doing in a Catalina?
EP: I went to India when I finished flying. You’d got —
AM: I’ll come back to that after.
EP: That’s a long time.
AM: Yeah, I’ll come back to that story after. The two pictures are pictures of, describe, just describe those to me. What are they actually pictures of?
EP: Well, that’s — that’s Heligoland.
AM: Right. Yeah.
EP: You’ve heard of that? And on there, you see, there’s a fighter base, the garrison and the U-boat pens.
AM: And who would have taken that picture? The bomb aimer?
EP: No, the aircraft.
AM: The aircraft. The air. Oh, it’s an automatic camera, isn’t it? Yeah.
EP: And that one’s Oldenburg. It tells you that and that was Alex the day I was, they are the target indicator. Did you know that the target indicators cascaded a thousand feet? Did you know that?
AM: No.
EP: There’s a fuse on the end. I can always remember. They were eight pound a piece then. What happened? The flares don’t go up? You see them cascading, don’t you? Well, the pressure at a thousand feet ignites them.
AM: And that’s the flare.
EP: That’s the flare. But the full, full amount of five hundred pound bombs and you’ve got the four thousand pounder, to be carrying the four thousand pound bomb all the time. And you know, they’re distributed off the aircraft you know. They don’t just all go off. It’s distributed so that it keeps the aircraft level.
AM: Yeah. So, you don’t —
EP: So, it doesn’t go top heavy. They distributed off the bombs so the aircraft —
AM: How many would one aircraft drop? How many flares would you drop?
EP: Well six or seven.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Of different colours. But —
AM: So, you’d do your first colour first.
EP: Whatever — you see. You’d make it —
AM: And you’d drop them all together, but you’d know which one had —
EP: Everything’s dropped in a big —
AM: Right. Ok. So, tell me —
EP: You’ve got the full five hundred pound going down together, but they all balanced off to keep the aircraft level, you know. They don’t all go ruddy together. Should keep the nose down.
AM: ‘Cause I’m imagining that you dropped —
EP: You see, at night time, there’s a photo, you’ve got a photoflash and you’ve got a photoflare in the chute. Half way down the aircraft. It’s a quarter of a million candle power. That’s what you measure light with isn’t it? Did you know that?
AM: No.
EP: That’s candle power. And it was a quarter of a million candle power did this flash. Now, when you drop your bombs at night, your camera takes over and takes up the release point in case you’re not in the position, ‘cause you’ve got to be straight and level to get the photograph at night you know.
AM: You’re supposed to be still and level aren’t you, as it’s taking it?
EP: It works out so when your bombs hit the deck and flares, the bombs hit the deck and the flares are going down behind them. The photoflash flashes and your camera takes, all synchronised together so your bombs hit the deck, your flashes and your camera take over. Take a picture. All three together. Nobody operates it. You relied on [unclear], that was one of the things. Marvellous.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But I used to have to be sent back to put my hand down the chute to make sure the bugger had gone. What would have happened if we’d landed and it had stuck? And it stuck on its way down. What would have happened if we’d gone with —? That operated at a thousand feet as well.
AM: So, what did you do if it hadn’t gone?
EP: You had to make sure that it had gone. There was ways of ejecting it.
AM: Right.
EP: What would have happened if you’d got down to a thousand feet?
AM: Oh yeah, I can imagine.
EP: It would have exploded and that would have been the aircraft.
AM: I can imagine.
EP: It would have been on fire.
AM: I can imagine. Yeah. I just had, I just had this picture of you crawling back along the aircraft to make sure it’s gone.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And it’s still there.
EP: Yeah, if it was, you would have had to make sure. There was ways of releasing some the bombs and that.
AM: Why would you have released it.
EP: You can take the plates off. If you’ve got bombs hanging off. Sometimes you’d maybe land with the bombs stuck up, but you make sure they’ve gone. You can always tell. When you lose the bombs, the aircraft goes up like that, you know. When you lose bombs in the air, in day light was the worst. You could see the bloody aircraft go over and over and the bomb doors open, and some of the shear bombs shooting past you, just goes past your wing tips. They knocked turrets off as well, didn’t they? You can’t see them. It was a hell of a thing. Aye. Daylight was the worst. Everyone jockeying to get near the target and the bomb doors were open, and they’re going over to get into position. He drops his bombs and he goes up like that. You’ve dropped yours at the same time and you’re going to be back alongside him again. But that’s what it was like.
AM: If you were at the front. So, you’re the Pathfinder at the front and there’s all the other aircraft behind you, did they come up alongside you then.
EP: You see, you’ve got to be, you had to work to time. Time was essential. You had to be in that position in the air at that very — so you didn’t bump into one another. That was worse? You were colliding with one another. You had to be in that right spot all the time. Otherwise for every, if you go, for every hour in the air to a target, you’ve got five minutes to play with. Now, if you found that you were right, you had to pick a spot where you’re going to lose time. If you were five minutes earlier than where you should be. So, you could either make a big orbit in the bomber stream, which wasn’t very nice, or you could alter course sixty degrees to port. Fly out of the bomber stream for five minutes. A hundred and forty degrees. You fly back in in five minutes. Everything was — and you got back on course and you’ve only gone that bit and that’s where you lost a bit of time.
AM: Who made that decision?
EP: Well, it’s [unclear], it’s all, that’s what you’ve got to do as a navigator.
AM: It was the navigator.
EP: He told us. And we had H2S on there you know, which had an eighteen mile radius. He used to check with the pilot. He used to just tip the aircraft like that, to keep the nose, to keep them on course. You could be on course and off track you know. You could be there, on course, but off track in relation to the ground. See what I mean?
AM: No.
EP: You can be on course and on track.
AM: Right.
EP: That means you’re in the right position on the ground, in relation to the ground.
AM: So, what, what’s HS2? Is that the — ?
EP: That’s the big blister. I forget what it’s called but that — it had an eighteen miles —
GR: Radar.
AM: A radar.
EP: Radius. If you were going past some built up area and you knew what was there. They knew all this. You just had to just, skipper to the tip the aeroplane and it flickered, so it sent the rays out there. It picked the building up and gave you some idea. He was wonderful. You wouldn’t think he was on operations. Our navigator, Graham Rose. He was that all the time. Very vigilant. And he was plotting our position every six minutes. A little diamond on his route. Wonderful navigator. Wonderful pilot. Wonderful. I think this is why we survived. We were in the right place at the right time. I was asked that when they interviewed me at the Teesside airport, when the Canadian Lanc was there — how come I survived like that. I said, ‘I think we were in the right place at the right time’, and I’ve seen bloody aircraft blow up in the sky.
AM: Eric, Eric said didn’t he, another chap that we know, said that they kept safe all due to the navigator.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Who kept them in the middle of the bombing stream all the time.
EP: He was the main man, not the ruddy pilot in my eyes. The navigator was the main one in the bloody Lanc. Definitely. He wasn’t, I’d ask him to have a look, have a look at it. I’d step down. Have a look now. Your pals can’t see bloody much, there’s fog and there’s wingtips. They can’t see bloody much on the ground. It’s everybody else can.
AM: Did you ever get shot at? Well obviously, you got shot at. Did you ever get hit?
EP: Just with flak.
AM: Yeah.
EP: I remember I seemed to suffer more with that with the first crew I was with. We used to get out with all the paraphernalia and walk around the bomb site when we knew we could count. Flak mad.
AM: What? While you were still up there?
EP: No. When we landed.
AM: When you landed.
EP: You could walk around and see how many holes in it. And you could whip through ruddy wires that were all clipped together like that, whip through them like butter if you got hit by flak. You see, in my compartment, I had what they called Fishpond and you could see any aircraft underneath you, ‘cause you had it up. It could fly underneath you and shoot you down. We had no protection at all underneath, they used to fly and fire upwards into you. That’s how he shot. There was a show on recently. A bloody German fighter pilot, that’s what he used to do. Shoot them down like that. Shot many a Lancaster down. He was showing them in his logbook where he shot you down, even took the letters of the aircraft that he shot down, this German pilot. If you could see them, well you see with this Fishpond, it took the centre of the H2S and if an aircraft, a fighter were going underneath you or anything you would see them. It would blip.
AM: Did your gunners ever manage to shoot anybody down?
EP: Well, if they don’t fire at you, you don’t fire back at them, you just bloody ignore them. But what do you do if you get a fighter on your tail, there was a recognised corkscrew. Did you know that? If they’ve got a fighter in front of you know, to hit you, like, when you know you see the American things. They’re coming up the side but I don’t know how they do it, because you’d be all flying that way. He’s coming this way. See what I mean? Well —
AM: Because of the speed of the aircraft. And the guns.
EP: The German fighter’s going to fire came in front of you ‘cause you’re all going that way.
AM: Yeah. So, you fly into it.
EP: So, if he’s coming at you and you’ve got the back. If you come this way, you’ll hear the rear gunner telling him to corkscrew to starboard. Go like that with a Lanc. Take it down like. The German fighters got to come around like that. He breaks away and he comes down and he, and you come around and you come back up like that. And you can see the bloody propeller just fanning around with the force of gravity all the petrol away from the bloody, from the propellers. From the engine. You can just flip them around. You come go on to there and get back on course. Come at this again. They don’t fire at you. You just keep out of the way.
AM: You just keep out of the way.
EP: Don’t blow your — that you’ve seen them but night time, everything’s is black. You can’t see anything. And coming back fifty miles from base, this is another tip, I had to call up base to get the barometric pressure of the base so that the pilot could put it on his altimeter. Of course, there were no lights on. You’ve got to get other side before you can see the runway lights. And we had FIDO then. Do you know what that was?
AM: I know what FIDO was. Did you ever have to land at a FIDO airport?
EP: Yeah. One or two. I can always remember though the very first trip I did with this new crew, we went to, it think, was it? It was Chemnitz, I think, but we got, I got a call from Group headquarters. We had to go and land at Ford of all places. Yet we had FIDO on account of training command — a lot of them had landed there, but when you get a group broadcast, you’ve got to do what they say. We could have got down and landed at FIDO but I got a message, and we had to go and land at Ford, down near Southampton it was. I can always remember that, and we were stepped up to ten thousand feet. There was that many bombers needing to land there.
AM: What’s it like seeing that because it’s petrol burning, isn’t it? Along the runway.
EP: Aye. That’s all it is. It just disperses the fog. When you fly over, did I tell you, you drop like that when you’re coming in to land. There’s one coming this way, when you’re coming in to land and when you fly over, you can feel the aircraft drop down with the heat does it. But when we went to Ford there, course it’s a straight bloody bomber station. When we did eventually land, these women bloody controllers they were the ones. They used to make their voices very clear. They knew what they were doing. I used to — a women operators at flying control. They brought them all. They’d speak to every bomber ’cause they made touch with you there. Some were calling up on three engines, wanting to get down. Giving them priority, and they’d talk to everyone. Bring them all down like that, speak to every one of them. Then when we landed, where did we go, a little van used to pull up in front of it and big words, “Come on. Follow me”. This little — and you followed this little van and you followed, and he switched his lights off, and you knew that was where you’ve got to stop. The next day, you had to go and find your bomber.
AM: I was just going to say.
EP: There was that bloody many there.
AM: So, you’ve all landed. You’re there. What? And you’re at “foreign”, in inverted commas, airport.
EP: Yeah
AM: And that’s — where did you sleep? Just where ever you can.
EP: Pick your own. That was ok, you just picked your billet. There was empty billets.
AM: Oh right. Ok.
EP: You slept in all your flying gear, and maybe there was a meal for you as well, which you got every time you went on ops. You got proper eggs bacon and chips every time you went on ops. And when you came back, you got it. They were all rationed in Civvy Street. Yeah.
GR: Ford was the emergency landing base.
AM: Yeah.
GR: On the south coast.
AM: Yes.
EP: And the next day, they went to find our bomber and we get, I think, I don’t know whether we got fuelled up or something, but we were hedge hopping all the way back.
AM: What does that mean?
EP: Very low. We called it.
AM: Right.
EP: When you’re very low, you call it hedge hopping. I was that low. It took us about an hour to get back, it took us about an hour to get back because I had to phone up base. Call up base to let them know we were on our way. Did you know bomber aircraft wasn’t allowed to go in the air without a wireless operator?
AM: I didn’t.
EP: Navigator? Yes. I can remember when I was flying in the Whitleys. It’s in that book. The numerous air tests I did, with just me and the pilot. Used to always call for me from the sergeant’s mess. I could find, if he got lost on an air test, I could get him back to base. He didn’t have to have — that was why no aircraft was allowed off the ground without a wireless operator.
AM: Because you’re the connection.
EP: Well, you can call me.
AM: Back to —
EP: You can call it.
AM: Yeah.
EP: The navigator wants to make sure I can get a fix for him from in the air, as a wireless operator you know. There’s three stations in the country, you call that one up and these two are listening to him working you, so then you go through the procedures. He takes a bearings on you.
AM: Yeah.
EP: He takes a bearing on you, and he takes a bearing on you, and he plots them all on his charts and where they all cross — that’s your position.
AM: And tells you where you are.
EP: Five minutes after, you can ask him again if there’s nobody else bloody working them. And you turn them all together, you could see where you are in the sky. You needed a wireless operator all the time.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Gary was telling me a story as we were coming up, about a day when you were ready to take off and your fuel gauges was showing nil.
EP: Oh, that was when the skipper got a DSO for that. We were the Master Bomber that day.
AM: So, what happened? Tell me. What was the story?
EP: We’d been training in the day time right. And the Army couldn’t take Osnabruck. Whoever was trying to take the opposition. So, when you’re doing training, cross country, if you’re not on ops, you’re doing cross country training and bombing in The Wash. And I’ve got to contact base every half hour and I got the [unclear] for me to return to base. So, we came back to base. We were briefed straight away and we were taken out to the bomber and we took off straightaway. That’s how urgent it was. Otherwise, you’re waiting for an hour, an hour and a half before you go, and we took off before we should. In the end, we got in and found we hadn’t enough petrol. Skipper said to Harry, ‘Can you work out how much we’ve got?’ So, he said, ‘We haven’t got enough to get us there and back’.
AM: So that was when it was Alex Thorne.
EP: That was Alex Thorne.
AM: Yeah.
EP: So, he said, ‘We’ll go and we’ll bale out over France’, so, we were taxiing out to take off, got to the end of the runway and he pulled in to one of the dispersals. Broke RT silence and then we had to get the fella — the bowser driver had gone to the NAAFI for his break and they had to get him back. And so, we got the navigator, we cut that leg off and dogleg to the target. Cut that leg out and go to that one. Time was going by. Cut that leg out and go straight to the target. We took off on the wrong runway and flew straight to the target. And we got, and that was the day the highest we ever got, we got up to twenty three thousand feet. I’ll always remember that. And I can remember as we were approaching the target, skipper was weaving to get predicted with the radar. And there was about six bursts of flak on our tail. Straightaway, the rear gunner said, ‘Dive skipper, dive’, and we were up at twenty three thousand feet that day and he put it in to a dive, and you can imagine them reloading and firing and I was in the astrodome looking out. You could see all the bursts following us down as we were going down. You could see all the bursts. You know that, you know the feeling when you’re the last one to go to bed. You go up the stairs, thinking some buggers behind you and that, when you’re a kid, and that’s the feeling I got. When you could, you wanted to go faster. And you ruddy, you could follow this flak burst. That split second earlier, they would have hit us. And of course, the skipper, we started, and all the bombers were approaching the target and we were coming this way, and the skipper got in touch with the deputy, and that’s how the raid went on. And the skipper got the DSO for carrying that raid. We were the Master Bomber that day. We had to go. Now, if we didn’t, it would have happened? No Master Bomber. The raid would have been a flop. But we couldn’t. They couldn’t. They would have promulgated. He got the DSO on that raid. It was on Nuremberg. Another raid. We did a Master Bomber raid on Nuremberg, and we were on the approach. We were approaching the target, we got, I think we were just going to drop our bombs, and we got a wall up and the aircraft went into a dive, and Harry said — he had his back up against the pilot, pushing the stick back for the skipper, and it didn’t respond, and all the bombs gone. It eventually responded on its own, but by the time he had he got it around, it had gone in to the [unclear], because the deputy took over and took them further into Germany. As if Nuremberg wasn’t being far enough. But this [unclear], we were all on our, weren’t we? They’d all gone, the raid was over. There’s these two fighters coming towards us, I could see the gunners were waiting for them. They were two Mustangs. Better aircraft than the bloody Spitfire by all means. And do you know what? One of them came right alongside us. He had his hood back and he was a coloured pilot, American, and he was smoking a big Havana cigar. To let the smoke out. What do you think of that? And the other one was on the other side, and they escorted us back a hell of a way and as soon as they left us, in no time, a Spitfire came alongside and escorted us back.
AM: And escorted you back. Was the one in the Mustang — were they the Tuskegee’s were they called?
EP: I don’t know, but it was a coloured pilot.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And he had the hood back to let the smoke out.
AM: With his cigar.
EP: Smoking a Havana cigar.
AM: Waggling his wings at you.
EP: True story that.
AM: Yeah.
EP: We were escorted back a couple of time, with a Lancaster once, then it got shot down. Jack Harrold. I think it was on the Ruhr. We got, we’d gone three engines and this bloody Lanc flew up alongside. I’ve got a letter from what the skipper wrote to him, I’ve got the letter somewhere, but he found out after he got killed. He got shot down that lad, and in his letter, he said, ‘Do unto others as they would do unto you’. He said, if I’d left you, because when you lose an engine, you know, you lose all bloody sorts, you know, ‘cause all your power and that to your guns and dropping your wheels and hydraulics, and all the power comes from your engine.
AM: So, it’s not just the engine. It’s everything that it was powering.
EP: So, if an engine bloody stops, you know, the ways you could lose if you. I don’t know which engine it was but if you lost power with that you can’t — your wings. You’ve got to drop your wings, crank them around to get to lock them. Now where I sat in my place, I could see, I could see the wheels. I used to tell. When the skipper selected me, when we were coming in to land anyway, you could see the wheels had dropped down and I could feel the power build up then. You could see them do that, and I used to tell them they’d done that. I let him know that at least they had locked. If you’ve got, if you hadn’t got the indication on your panel on the aircraft. It’s a wonderful bloody aeroplane, the Lancaster, wonderful aeroplane.
AM: Wonderful.
EP: I’ve got three hundred and fifty hours flying one, and I think about two hundred and seventy operational ones, and we used to, when we were going on ops or were going on bloody training, we used to do cross-country’s for the navigators. We’d meet up with a bloody Spitfire or a Mustang for the gunners to have, you know, for the fight, and in The Wash, there was a triangle in The Wash. Did you know that? We used to drop ten pound smoke bombs. You could see them. Just ten pound in weight. They were little tiny bombs for the bomb aimer and this used to fascinate me. When we, this was on the way back, that was part of the training, and when you, the pilot would make contact with the base [unclear], whatever, and we were going to drop these bombs, and you had to tell them what height you were at. Do you know what they used to use for the height? Angels. Now isn’t that nice? We’re at Angels 10. Ten thousand feet. Now, isn’t that lovely?
AM: Yeah.
EP: That was a difference of not saying ten thousand feet. Angels 10.
AM: Ten. Angels 10.
EP: Wasn’t that lovely? That’s what they used to tell us what height we were at, ‘cause you just had to keep flying low, turn around and keep coming back and drop a one or two. That was —
AM: So, was there continual training in between the operations then?
EP: Oh aye. You would turn up when you were on ops. Every day was the same. Saturday. Sunday. There was no Saturday and Sunday. Any day. Aren’t you saying something?
AM: That was to Gary who is sat with us. Aren’t you? Have you got anything to say Gary? Any questions? Any extra questions?
EP: I think he’s put a bit of weight on as well, you know
GR: Oh, thanks Ernie.
EP: Haven’t you. Eh?
GR: I’ve lost weight.
AM: Never mind weight. Have you got any questions?
GR: When did you get your DFM?
EP: After we finished, didn’t we? I was recommended for a commission you know, after the war. I think, you know, how that worked if there was officers left. Officer’s mess if a crew get approachable, two of his crew. Now Jimmy Rayment, the rear gunner and me, after we’d, we’d finished flying, I think, I think it was after we bloody got out of the ruddy bomber at Heligoland. That was the last trip I did. And he said he’d recommended us both for a commission. Of course, we got a fortnight’s, leave, didn’t we? We all went on a fortnight’s and while I was on my fortnights, we decided to get married, didn’t we? So, I waited for another fortnight to get my —
AM: Oh, I was going to ask you when you met your wife and all that.
EP: Because what they do — you ask for a fortnight. They say seven days granted.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So, I’d asked for a fortnight, I only wanted seven days and I got the bloody, I got the fortnight and during that fortnight, the war ended. I was married on the 5th of May and the war ended on the 8th, didn’t it?
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Did you know that? I was on leave, weren’t I, and I got bloody posted to do another bombing, to another Pathfinder squadron. Off my leave. I thought, well what about my commission? They must have thought, well the war’s over now. We were surplus, or they’ve, ‘cause Jimmy, he went back, didn’t he? And he got his commission but I didn’t. I ended up in bloody India. I had to do something. I ended up in charge of flying control in India.
AM: I was going to ask you what —
EP: And this why, this is why I got the trip in the Catalina. Out there.
AM: So —
EP: I was then put in charge of bloody flying control out there. And I was dealing with flying bods coming from Hong Kong to the UK for demob.
AM: So, hang on. So, the war finished, then you got married.
EP: I got married on the 8th
AM: And then before demob —
EP: I got married on the 5th of May.
AM: Yeah.
EP: 1945.
AM: Yeah.
EP: The war ended on the 8th of May.
AM: Yeah. So then when did you get — so the war’s ended but obviously, it’s a long while before your demob.
EP: That was always first in were first out, but I did get, I was offered my class B release.
AM: What does that mean?
EP: Because I was a builder, wasn’t I? Joiner.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
EP: They wanted you in Civvy Street then. Right. I was going to jump the queue and come out before I should do.
AM: So how did you end up in India then?
EP: The thing was if you, if you took your Class B, you go where they’re sending you and you got a fortnight’s leave. Well, I didn’t want that, I wanted to pick my own bloody job, so, I waited for my Class A release which was about five or six weeks after my release would have been up. I got, I took the month’s leave I was entitled to and I went and worked. Picked my own bloody job which was near home.
AM: Right. Tell me just —
EP: You had to go where they sent you when you did that.
AM: Just before you tell me about the job, tell me about going flying your Catalina and going to India.
EP: From Chelmsford I went, I think from there.
AM: Did you go on your own or were Harry or Boris or any of them with you?
EP: Lots of them were posted then until your demob number came up. It was always first in, first out, when your demob number come up.
GR: Was that just you Ernie? It wasn’t any of the other crew. It wasn’t Harry, or Boris or any of them.
EP: No. No. I think Harry — he went flying straightaway with Cheshire, didn’t he?
GR: Yes.
EP: Did you know that?
AM: Yes, I did. Yeah.
EP: Harry. Harry and Cheshire went up in to Scotland and bought two Mosquitos for seven hundred and fifty pound, and one of them only had twenty flying hours in. And Harry flew with Cheshire, setting up Cheshire homes in Europe.
AM: Yes, I remember that.
EP: Harry did that.
AM: So, where, where did, tell me again why you went then, before you were demobbed.
EP: I went to a place called Korangi Creek in India, near Karachi.
AM: And what were you doing?
EP: I was just — you had to do something until your demob number came. I ended up, I was in to accounts but I didn’t do it, go into it. I was in, it was a Flying Boat base which was in the process of closing down, and we were dealing with Sunderland Flying Boats coming from Hong Kong to UK for demob, and I used to have to deal with them. You see, once they left Hong Kong, they were my pigeon. Then when I left them — they left me, I had to organise petrol for them and all the meals and whatever. Fill them up. Then when I, then when they left me, Bahrain was the next stop. But it was, I used to wire Bahrain to let them know it was on its way. It was their pigeon. And it was there, and I used to, and these Sunderland Flying Boats used to take off the next day, and I used to arrange them for the meals for them and accommodation where I was, and I’d go with them to the launch with them, with the Anglo Indians, to see them off. And on this particular, we were in in this launch going along, and this Sunderland Flying Boat coming alongside me. Well, all of a sudden, for some reason, they turn off the bloody flarepath, like that, and this bloody fella driving the launch — he didn’t see him [laughs] and we were all bawling at him. There was a few of us on this launch with him, and I spoke to the pilot about it. He said, ‘I’m sorry’. I’ll always remember that. It was, and I think, do you know what? They approached me to join them. BOAC took it over. He said, ‘You’re a wireless operator. We need wireless operators. Why don’t you join us?’ I said, ‘Well I’m in the bloody RAF, aren’t I?’ When you get out you join us. We need wireless operators. I didn’t.
AM: Why didn’t you, why didn’t you?
EP: I wanted out. I’d already had enough of bloody flying, I wanted out, and they used to approach me. They had ones that would, they had their staff, we had ours. He said, ‘Why don’t you join us? We need radio officers in BOAC’. What might have — because I’d been pulled over the coals by the family for not taking it on. I wanted out, I’d done enough. Anyway, the thing was, I wasn’t up, when I was offered this commission. And the war ended. Whatever happened after that didn’t apply. But in a way — what they did with you, if you got a commission after you finished your flight, Transport Command they’d put you on. And I wanted out, I’d had enough of bloody flying.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But you never know. I’d been lucky up till then and that’s it. Only bloody birds and fools fly. But I wanted out and that was why I didn’t pursue it. I could have pursued it and they might have got me something earlier, and they posted me to another Pathfinder squadron, and I got posted from there. I ended up at Biggin Hill. I could always remember that. How [unclear] I was
AM: What were, what were you doing there?
EP: Just in transit all the bloody time ‘til they decided what to do with me. [Unclear] was there. I met up with him, he was at Biggin Hill.
GR: When did your demob finally come through?
EP: When?
GR: Yeah. When did you actually finish in the RAF?
EP: September ’46.
GR: ’46.
EP: See, another thing, if I accepted, if I’d accepted a commission — another way I looked at it. You get discharged out the RAF and brought back in as an officer, different number and that and you’ve got stay in at least twelve month from being a commission.
AM: Right.
EP: I thought I want out, I want out sharpish. I didn’t. it was another bloody twelve month before I didn’t come out. So that was it. I turned it down, I didn’t pursue it, but that was it. I ended up as a warrant officer which was automatic.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But my bonus out of the war was meeting to meet my beautiful wife. She was in the land army
AM: Where did you meet, where did you meet, Ernie.
EP: She was in the land army. She was in the land army in Wisbech.
AM: Right.
EP: I met her in the November. We were engaged and married in six month.
AM: So, she was in Wisbech. Where? Was that when you were based near there then?
EP: I was based at Downham Market.
AM: Oh, at Downham Market. Of course, you were. Yeah.
EP: I was based about fifteen miles away.
AM: Where did you meet her then?
EP: At a dance.
AM: At a dance.
EP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: What was she called, Ernie?
EP: Kathleen.
AM: Kathleen.
EP: Yeah. She was a lovely person.
AM: She was your bonus.
EP: I’d have died a thousand deaths to keep her. I could have packed. On Pathfinders, you know, you’ve got to do, they like to do two tours. Main force you do thirty.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Which is one tour, and you go away to be an instructor somewhere and they get you back to do another fifteen, but towards the end of the war, they weren’t doing that. They were just doing the thirty. Now, Americans only did twenty five, and then they went home, didn’t they? ‘Cause they all flew straight and level all the time, but we flew a different pattern altogether. Americans.
GR: Do you know how many ops Alex Thorne did in the end?
EP: He did about fifty three. Fifty four.
GR: Fifty three. Fifty four.
EP: Yeah, but I keep referring to this. When I read anything, I keep referring to this, it’s all in here.
AM: Ernie’s got his logbook.
EP: I’ll just show you some. An operational page [long pause] In red, it’s night time. Green, it’s day time.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And it’s, here in the, the number of ops I lost. On the fifty odd raids that I was on, we lost two hundred and seventy five bombers. But it’s the number of ops and the number of aircraft lost on that raid. So, it’s all, it’s a very interesting book this. Look at all. Look at that page for a kick off. In that. See all the —
AM: Yeah. I’m looking now at, I’m looking now at the different raids so Chennai, Dessau
EP: Chemnitz. See, all the times I was in the air is in the next column.
AM: Eight hours. Yeah.
EP: And the number of ops and the number of aircraft we lost. If you go the other way, that’s there’s some more. Some more. It’s quite a — one of my proud possessions that. Did you know, did you know when you’re selected as a Pathfinder, you’ve got to be marking and you get a certificate. You can be pulled up by the RAF police in the town. You could have a permit to wear those little gold wings. Did you know that?
AM: No.
EP: You’d have a permit and when you finished flying you got a permanent certificate from Bennett. I’ll show you.
AM: I’m looking, I’m looking at this one here. So, the operation — Heligoland.
EP: That was the last one.
AM: As Master Bomber, and then you’ve written in blue underneath, abortive sortie. So, there was a final abortive sortie after the Heligoland.
EP: That was, that was another one. I don’t know whether — I think if you can get within a certain distance, you can count it as one.
AM: It was like a quarter of an operation
EP: So, I did. So that’s it. it could have been fifty two. On the countdown. But go back to where you see more ops.
AM: Oh yeah. There’s —
EP: See.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Do you see all those amongst the people you interview?
AM: Yeah. Lots of people have got logbooks. Some haven’t but some do.
EP: Have you seen them all?
AM: Hmmn.
EP: How many had the DFM then?
AM: Sorry?
EP: How many had the DFM?
GR: Not many.
AM: I can’t. Not many.
EP: Do you know there were twenty thousand DFCs given out? Eight hundred and seventy DSOs. Six and a half thousand DFMs. This is why the DFM is more.
AM: Is more. It’s more.
EP: Did you watch that Antiques Roadshow the other night? Monday night.
AM: No.
EP: There was a lad on there. He’d had his grandad’s DFC, his medals, I have, and his logbook like that, and do you know how much they valued it at? Between three and four thousand pounds.
AM: Blimey.
EP: Now, I’ve got the Pathfinder certificate.
AM: The Pathfinder. Yeah. I’ve found the, I’ve found that one where you were Ford to base.
[Recording paused]
GR: Not with my interviews but when I’ve visited —
AM: So, I’m looking here at Ernie’s award of his Pathfinder Force badge, which certifies that, “1567159. Flight Sergeant Patterson, GE. Having qualified for the award of the Pathfinder Force badge and having now completed satisfactorily the requisite conditions of operational duty in the Pathfinder Force, is hereby awarded permanently his Pathfinder Force badge, issued on the 22nd of April 1945”. Signed by —
GR: Bennett.
AM: Bennett. Who was the air officer commanding of the Pathfinder force. And Ernie’s going to show me his badge in a minute, I think. What’s he fetching me now? I’ll try and get some scans of some of this information.
EP: This is, this is a permit to wear it before you get that.
AM: So, what Ernie’s telling me is that you have —
EP: You could be pulled up by the police.
AM: Come and sit. Come and sit down again and tell me about this
GR: Do as she says [laughs]
AM: So, the permit says, and it’s issued from the headquarters of the Pathfinder Force, again, to Flight Sergeant Patterson. “You have today qualified for the award of the Pathfinder Force badge, and are entitled to wear the badge as long as you remain in Pathfinder Force”, and again, signed by Bennett, Air Vice Marshall. So, what did the badge mean? Tell me. Tell me again. What?
EP: You can see them.
GR: It’s there.
AM: Yeah, but you were telling me. Yeah, I’ve got it. And you were telling me that if you were pulled up by the police
EP: RAF police. They used to have red hats on and —
AM: Yeah.
EP: In the town. Because people used to masquerade as wearing them, in the town, and wear it.
AM: Why. Why did they wear it?
EP: Swaggering.
AM: Oh, to swagger around in it.
EP: Showing off. That’s how they were. Another one.
AM: And I’ve got the letter from Buckingham Palace, “With the award that you have so well earned, I send it to you with my congratulations and my best wishes for your future happiness”.
EP: That’s what, that’s what appeared in the paper.
AM: And I’ve got a clipping in here from April 1945. A Darlington joiner gets the DFM.
EP: That was, that’s in the, I think that was taken on the —
AM: Blimey and I’ve got a picture here of Ernie with a wireless.
EP: That was 1154.
AM: I’m going to scan some of this stuff, but before we finish, I’ve switched it back on because I want you to tell me. I don’t — I don’t think it’s anything to do with the RAF, but you know your, your interest Ernie, in knowing all the different —
EP: I’m making sure my memory is still there
AM: Right. Hang on. Collective nouns.
EP: Yeah. What do you want to know?
AM: I want, I want to know loads of them. I want you to come and tell me some.
EP: You’ve seen the DFM haven’t you?
AM: But first of all, I’m getting to look at Ernie’s DFM.
EP: Have you seen some who have them?
AM: No, let me. I haven’t seen, I’ve not seen your one
EP: Of course they don’t
AM: Let me have a look.
EP: There’s the Pathfinder wing.
GR: That’s the Pathfinder wings which you wore
EP: There’s a Pathfinder wing.
AM: And there’s your DFM. So, the Pathfinder wing is actually a really beautiful — is it —
GR: RAF wing.
AM: Is it on a tie pin?
EP: Yes. It’s alright.
AM: And it’s the RAF eagle looking out towards the left. With the beautiful gold wings and the DFM, of course, is the one with the diagonal striped ribbon as opposed to the DFC one.
GR: And is the only medal with the recipient’s name on the edge.
AM: And is the only medal with the recipient’s name on the edge. Which I didn’t know. So, tell me some of these collective nouns.
EP: What time are you going?
AM: Tell me some, tell me some interesting ones.
EP: I’ve got dinner coming at 12 but I’ll put it –
AM: Why did you become interested in knowing what all the collective nouns are for groups of animals?
EP: I just read them. Some of them fascinated. Like a lot ravens. Unkindness. Isn’t that nice?
AM: A kindness.
EP: Unkindness.
AM: Unkindness sorry. Of ravens.
EP: Ravens. A lot of ladybirds. A love of ladybirds. Isn’t that nice?
AM: Lovely.
EP: Flamingos. A flurry of flamingos. A bale of turtles. A posse of turkeys. How many do you want to know?
AM: All of them.
EP: What they call a lot of moles. A movement. And that’s a nice name, isn’t it?
AM: A movement of moles.
EP: A movement, Moles yeah. And a lot of sparrows. A quarrel.
AM: A quarrel.
EP: You know what a lot of owls are. A parliament. A parliament of owls. It doesn’t sound right does it? Another nice one. A lot of snipe. Have you ever heard of a snipe?
AM: Yeah.
EP: A whisper.
AM: A whisper of snipes.
EP: Of snipe. Yeah, I looked them up.
AM: The wings just whispering. I could —
EP: And a covoy of pheasants. A covoy.
AM: A covoy.
EP: C.O.V.O.Y.
AM: I know that one.
EP: A covoy of pheasants.
AM: Yeah.
EP: No. Partridges that. A covoy of partridge. And a bouquet. A bouquet of pheasants. A town of giraffes. A crash of rhino. A pod of hippos. There’s lots of them. A destruction of wild cats. There’s a deceit of lapwing. An exaltation of skylarks. An ostentation of eagles. A mustering of storks. A flight of swallows.
AM: Just a flight of swallows.
EP: A flight. A flight of swallows. There’s lots of them. And what else? A sloth of bears. A sloth. A skulk of foxes.
AM: Some of them you can really see why and some of them you just can’t.
EP: Some are nice. And you get, what is it? A pace of donkeys, a barren of mules. You know why it’s called a barren?
AM: No.
EP: They don’t breed do they? They’re barren.
AM: Oh, a barren. Barren.
EP: Barren of mules. A mule is a cross between a donkey and a horse, isn’t it? They don’t breed mules. Did you know that?
AM: No. I did know that. But when you said barren, I was thinking baron.
EP: She can’t have kids, can she? I thought that was a good name for them. Mules. And you’ve got a charm of goldfinches. And a chime of Wrens. An army of frogs. A bevvy of otters. Do you know where otters live? Do you know what it’s called? Where otters live? A holt. H O L T. A holt. An army of frogs. A nest of snakes.
AM: What about toads?
EP: I don’t know about that one.
AM: No.
EP: But you get an array of hedgehogs. What do you call a lot of grasshoppers? It’s in the sky. What’s in the sky?
AM: Sun.
EP: Cloud.
AM: A cloud.
GR: A cloud.
AM: Oh cloud. of course.
GR: A cloud of grasshoppers. Yeah.
EP: I can remember the, what the great granddaughter — we met up with her when she was with her mum and dad one day and she had a pen and paper with her and I gave her fifty names.
AM: Brilliant.
EP: Yeah. That’s some of them. Some of them are a fascinating. Some of them — like a lot ravens. An unkindness. That’s my favourite. Nice, isn’t it?
GR: What was crows?
EP: Crows, a murder wasn’t it?
GR: A murder of crows.
AM: A murder of crows.
EP: That’s terrible that is. A mutation of, a murmuration of starlings and a mutation of thrushes.
AM: Is there one for swans?
EP: Eh?
AM: Swans.
EP: Swans. A bank.
AM: A bank of swans.
EP: That’s what it says. Some of them there’s three or four names for them but I just remember one of them.
GR: Yeah.
EP: A deceit of lapwing. An exultation of skylarks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ernie Patterson. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APattersonGE151008, PPattersonGE1501, PPattersonGE1502
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:14:01 audio recording
Description
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Ernie Patterson DFM was born in Middleton St George in Darlington. At the age of 14, he left school and took on a job as an apprentice Joiner.
He joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 19 in 1941, but whilst he was waiting to be called up, he was helping to build a bomber station and what is now Teesside Airport, also completing work at the satellite station of Croft.
Ernie trained as a Wireless Operator, where he did well with Morse Code. He did his training in February 1942. He was sent to Evanton in Scotland, where he also trained as an Air Gunner.
He flew Proctors, Whitleys, Dominies, Avro Ansons, Halifaxes, Lancasters, Liberators and had a trip in at Catalina Flying Board. Ernie flew with 635 Squadron, which was part of the Pathfinders Force.
Ernie completed 51 Operations, flying to Stettin, Chemnitz and Hanover. He was part of the Master Bomber Crew to Dorsten, Kiel, Nuremburg, Osnabruck and Heligoland.
After the war, he was in charge of flying control in India, handling the closing of a Flying Boat base and arranging for them to be returned to the UK.
Ernie left the Royal Air Force in 1946 and returned to work as a Joiner, retiring from work at the age of 78.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
635 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-24
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Catalina
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Dominie
fear
FIDO
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Operational Training Unit
P-51
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Downham Market
RAF Millom
RAF Stanton Harcourt
RAF Yatesbury
Sunderland
superstition
target indicator
training
Whitley
wireless operator
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/597/8866/ALeatherdaleF151018.1.mp3
0656231076eab0f126437dd54aae5a5b
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Leatherdale, Frank
F Leatherdale
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Leatherdale, F
Description
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An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale DFC (b. 1922, 151162 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 7 and 115 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-10-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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GR: It’s Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale.
AM: OK. [laugh] So, my name’s Annie Moodie. I’m working as a volunteer for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln and we’re recording memories of Bomber Command veterans for the learning centre in Lincoln so that there’ll be there as a record for future generations. And, I am in Norwich today and with Squad— Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale and it’s the 18th of October 2015. So, thank you for agreeing to this. And, maybe can — if you can just tell me a little bit about your early days. Where you were born and what did your parents do?
FL: I was born in Thornton Heath, which is part of Croydon these days, almost London, but — and educated at the City of London Freemen’s School at Ashtead, um, not that my father was a Freeman. He — we were day pupils there, my brother and I, um, and I was born on 3rd of November 1922. We’d better start there and [clears throat] when I finished school war had just started. July, I finished and, um, I was still too young to join the RAF. They wouldn’t have me until I was eighteen so I joined the local Defence Volunteers, which was before the Home Guard, and I was a bit of a nob [?] on aircraft recognition because I used to make Skybird models. These were 1:72nd wooden scale models of various aircraft and if you’d been filing away at a piece of wood you know that shape when you see it in the sky very well. And this was known in our DV and so they made me a fulltime aircraft spotter and, um, whenever the air raid alarm went I had to leap in my bike, cycle up the road about three or four hundred yards, to where a house had a very good vantage point all round. This was in Leatherhead in the North Downs and the people at this house on the corner left a window open downstairs so I could reach in and grab their telephone. So, this was known as Point L21. Whenever I got there I had to put two numbers, one was the Leatherhead Police Station, the other was a number in the Brooklands Defence. I never did find out quite where it was but it was an Army number. Anyway, and then I reported what I saw and I never saw great droppings of parachutes or anything like that but I did see aircraft and, on one occasion, I was watching the sky and saw this flash out of the corner of my eye, to the south east, and I thought, ‘That’s funny, what was that?’ And the only equipment I had was what we had in the family. I didn’t get any government equipment. So, I just got some little binoculars and I looked through this thing. There was a group of some twenty-odd aircraft coming across and I thought, ‘Oh, that’s unusual,’ and wondered what the flash was I saw and I reckoned then they were Messerschmitt Jaguars which I’d just read about it. The Messerschmitt Jaguar was a version of the 110 fighter but the bomber version with the glass nose. In fact, later on we learnt that they only built about three of these things but it was reported as a new type in our journals. And, um, anyway, I thought they were going to try and get down to London through the back door’ sort of thing, coming over our way. And —
GR: In fact, this would have been, this was 1940 while the Battle of Britain was —
FL: Sorry?
GR: Was this 1940 [unclear] during the Battle of Britain?
FL: October 1940 yes. And so I reported these aircraft through, to the numbers that I had to ring and I found that, whilst we had air raid warning at Leatherhead, um, it hadn’t reached Brooklands. Their sirens hadn’t gone, which was a bit odd, someone slipped up there but, nevertheless, I didn’t think these things were going to Brooklands. I thought they were going to try to get round, as I say, to London from the north, from the north to west through the back door but they got over at Esher and then they then just peeled off. It was like watching something at the Hendon air display in the peacetime. But they just came down one after the other and bombed the Vickers works at Brooklands. They didn’t touch Hawker’s on the other side of the airfield, thank God, but the trouble was, that as the sirens hadn’t gone, they didn’t respond to my warning, which was, would have given them about five minutes. They would have to be pretty quick off the mark. But one of the bombs hit their canteen and it was lunchtime and two hundred workers were killed there with that bomb. Luckily for us, a Polish Squadron based at Croydon, with Hurricanes, had seen these aircraft approaching Brooklands and the chappie in charge of them said, ‘We’d better go and investigate this.’ And they just managed to get there and attack them as, as they were breaking away from their dives and they shot one down, and the Bofors guns got another one and, um, that was it. Well, when the raid was over I jumped on my bicycle and cycled up to where I’d seen this smoke coming up from the one that had been shot down by the Hurricanes in fact, but it didn’t matter. But being an excited schoolboy (I was only seventeen) I didn’t write down how many there were or what it was. I could so easily have looked at this wreck on, burning on the ground and identified it. I, in fact, took a piece of wreckage of it, which is in the museum at Brooklands now. It’s only a little piece of metal. So, as I said, we weren’t very sure what these aircraft were but we eventually found out that they were a fighter bomber. The Germans only built three Jaguars [slight laugh]. These were just their normal fighter bomber Messerschmitt 110. Anyway, I eventually joined the RAF after that and wanted to be a pilot, like we all did, and was sent out to Canada, to the Empire Air Training Scheme, and I went out right across to Calgary and we were flying Tiger Moths at the Elementary Flying Training School and, very quickly, I didn’t have many hours, I got my log book. I had only twelve hours altogether, um, learning to fly this thing but I crashed one on take-off. A lot of people had trouble landing. I had no trouble guessing my height off the ground. I could land them beautifully. It was take-off that got me and when you open up the engine on a, any aeroplane but particularly a thing like a Tiger Moth there’s a vertex, vortex of air going back onto the tail plane and if you don’t do something about it that’s going to push that tail round so the pilot has to take off some of the rudder to keep the thing straight. I was told all this and I thought, ‘Well, that was easy.’ And then I was given a flight commander’s check and this was when I did a ground loop on take-off, spun round, and, you know, well what happened there? Well, of course the undercarriage collapsed. Not a lot of damage done but worrying. Anyway, I was given another check by a more senior instructor and the same thing happened. I did another ground loop. Years later I realised what I think what was happening was that my first instructor was only quite soon, only just been appointed, a pilot himself and, um, and when he said I’d got control he was still on the controls, quite unwittingly I should think. And so, as we were starting to take off he was working the rudder but didn’t know he was. And so I thought, ‘Oh this is fine.’ Off we went but when the flight commander gave me the check he didn’t have his feet on the rudder bar and I had [emphasis] control when he said I had and, um, and of course I didn’t do anything about correcting this swing until I saw the nose starting to move on the horizon and so then I started to over-correct in the opposite direction and that caused the ground loop. So, I was re-mustered, um, and sent down to a training unit right across the other side of Canada to be re-mustered as an air observer. And well, I was all very upset by that but still, I did what I was told, and became an air observer and qualified as such in February ‘43. Oh, I had been sick in hospital in the meanwhile, in Canada, with glandular fever but anyway, so that put me back a bit. And I eventually, afterwards, realised that how lucky I’d been because the most of the pilots on my first course had a very rough time of it. Many of them were killed when they eventually got across Europe and I always thought, ‘Well, I’d rather be a live navigator than a dead pilot.’ Until I was a sergeant na— navigator with the flying Os, we had in those days, I won’t tell you what we used to call them but you know what [laugh]
GR: I know what [laugh].
FL: And, um, came back to England and joined 115 Squadron up at Witchford, just outside Ely, and when we formed up as a crew an Australian pilot said would I be his navigator and I said, ‘Yes.’ And I’m glad I did. He was a very nice chap and a very good officer and he selected the rest of our crew as he was going round in this big hangar meeting people as we did in those days. It was all very voluntary. And so, we got to 115 Squadron flying the Lancaster Mark 2s. Now, the Lanc 2 had Hercules engines so many people thought they were Halifaxes, looking at them quickly. Of course they’d got these Hercules engines but it was a Lancaster Mark 2 and a damn good aircraft because the Hercules engines had got more power than a Merlin so it was rather like having four — a Hercules was an equivalent four Merlins so we could lift a heavier bomb load. Our difficulty was, we also gobbled up more fuel, especially at high altitude. Anyway, quite shortly our pilot was — went into Ely Hospital with pneumonia and they wouldn’t let us wait for him to come out. They sent another pilot up to take over the crew and he was a Canadian and probably a far better pilot than our Australian chap but nothing like the officer that the Australian was. The Australian really was a good officer, had us all trained and — right, this Canadian, he’d come back from a raid and said, ‘Where have we been?’ [laugh] If we’d been shot down, you know, he wouldn’t have a clue where he was. And that was Mack all the time. He was sitting up late at night playing cards with his oppos in the billets and, um, there was one occasion when, in the following morning — oh, I by this time I was a flying officer and so was the pilot, um, anyway, we were down for flying that night and I looked at Mack and I thought, ‘I’m not flying with you tonight.’ His eyes were little slits and red. He’d been up half the night playing these cards with his — and smoking away there. And after, well years after the war I — oh, the raid was cancelled, thank goodness, so nothing happened, but I went to the flight commander, who was George Mackie, a very famous — also a, a navigator, well a flying O [laugh] and I said, you know, ‘Had I gone to you and told you this at the time what would you have done?’ He said, ‘Well, I’d have had to court martial him.’ And I thought it’s a good thing I didn’t. He was a good pilot as I say. But anyway, we got through our thirty trips on that first tour and I, myself, had only done twenty-nine. Because of the change of pilots we were, most of the crew, were one short. However, I was awarded an assessment of above average and so I thought if we went to Pathfinders we’d get more money. And this is a little tale that needs to be told, that when the Pathfinder Force was formed — and, of course, the shot rate was pretty high. Clearly, you were out in front of the main force, they were coming along, and just these few aircraft out in front to mark the targets and our air officer commanding number 8 Group wanted to get us more money and Air Ministry said, ‘No, we’re not paying you danger money. That’s not how we work.’ So he went tick, tick, tick, tick. He promoted everybody one rank and got his money for us. So everybody was happy and, um, there we were and the rest of the crew were mostly made up to officers. They were sergeants or one was a flight sergeant. And so we went to 7 Squadron. After training at the Pathfinder Training Unit you went to Oakington just outside Ely —
GR: Did you have a break in between? Sorry Frank in between finishing your first tour and then going did you have a break, did you have —
FL: No, no. We, we carried straight on.
GR: Oh you went straight through.
FL: And, um, and I think well, I’m going to volunteer for Pathfinders, are the chaps are coming with me? Well the pilot didn’t want to, being Canadian he was going to go back to Canada and do more training, um, and the flight engineer didn’t want to because he’d just got married on one of the deep leaves that we had at the end of our ops. The rest of them came with me and joined, we joined Pathfinders and we picked up a new pilot there. And, in fact, we didn’t have, we had several different pilots in Pathfinders. It wasn’t a sort of regular crew. The rest of us were but the pilots seemed to come and go. And so, we staggered through a tour on Pathfinders, and we had — twice we were master bombers on the raids so that was good and when I finished there, I was assessed as above average and I thought, ‘Well, that was pretty good.’ But assessed as above average in a Force which was itself was above average. Anyway, I was then I posted to the Radar Research Establishment down at Defford which did all the flying for all the boffins at the Intelligence Communication Radar Establishment at Malvern and, um, I was the station navigation officer at Defford and they had all sorts of aircraft there so this was great fun for me. I liked flying in different planes and, um, anyway I did a lot of flying with the CO of the bomber flight. There was a bomber fight, a coastal flight and things like that at Defford, a naval flight as well, and this pilot, the CO of A Flight, was a chap called Ken Letchford [?] DSO and bar, DFC, from his Pathfinder days. Anyway, I did quite a lot of flying with him and got on very well with him and I flew with a lot of other pilots as well and, um, one of the jobs we were working on was Doppler navigation and the boffins were sitting at the back of a, another Mark 2 Lancaster actually and I had to align the nose, looking at the road or ground ahead, and the boffins would say, ‘We’ve got a return coming up at two miles.’ And I’d say, ‘Yes there’s a motorcycle there,’ or whatever it might be so, eventually, over time they would learn what these returns were on their Doppler. A car would give them this sort of picture and something else would give something different and so on. Well, this meant very low, a lot of it was very low level flying, and Ken Letchford would get right down on the deck, which is what the boffins wanted, so that their Doppler radar looked along the ground. This was just after the Germans had broken through in the Ardennes and, um, so there was a bit of a hurry on to get this equipment working because, at the time of the German breakthrough, which was a bit foggy, the air wasn’t able to give much support to the American sector where the Germans had attacked. Anyway, I would be lying there in the nose and all down the Bristol Channel you’d get these little blocks with a pole and a little light on it for, to warn the shipping, a little — fishing smacks and things, and Ken would go over [slight laugh] and down the other side. Well, when you switch the microphone on in an aeroplane you get a swooshing noise and as soon as I switched on Ken would say, ‘It’s alright Frank. I know where it is.’ And he always did, while most pilots would lose have lost it under the nose, they’d no longer see it, but his skill was he always knew right where it was, and sure enough, as I say, up and down the other side and so there it was. Anyway, one of the pilots I was flying with was — it was the first time I’d flown in a Beaufighter and he’d done his ops on Beaufighters, this chap, and, um, we had a, or the boffins had, a radar station on the Welsh coast, at a place called Brawdy, so that they could work out over Fishguard Bay and so we’d gone down there for, to take some equipment to them. On the way back this pilot decided to beat up Porthcawl and he dived down on the beach at Porthcawl as we were flying back home and to get in the Beaufighter the navigator had to go up through the bottom of the back compartment. The main spar separated you from the pilot’s cabin, no way through physically, and it was the general practice and I did the same as I’d been shown to leave my parachute pack on the airborne interception equipment and, anyway, as the pilot had dived down on Porthcawl, pulled up afterwards, he pulled a lot of G and I was crushed down in my seat and hanging on the sides of the plane and I could feel myself slipping down. And the floor of my compartment was the door which I had climbed in through and it had put the extra load and the extra negative G had snapped the lock on it and that meant I’d slid out a bit so my intercom plug pulled out of the socket and I couldn’t talk to the pilot at all. Thank God he was the man he was because, not only was he an experienced Beaufighter pilot, he’d also done the test flying on Beaufighters at Bristols and as soon as this door started to open he felt the change of trim. So, he thought, ‘Crickey.’ You know, he could guess what was happening and so he quickly put the plane into a bump, and a bump is a reverse loop, and you can — and coming down like that and again had he continued he would have done up and done the loop but he just, just pulled up. So, anyway he stuck the nose down quickly and that got me [unclear] back into my seat with positive G instead of negative G and, um, I was able to plug in and say I was still there and he said, ‘Yes right. We’ll carry on.’ And we got home alright. Just after he’d left Defford, which he was wing CO there at this time, a chap Peter Gibb, he set the world record for a jet aircraft altitude climb. He was — had gone to, back to Bristol’s as a test pilot and, um, he set this thing at about sixty thousand feet or something [clears throat] and about a fortnight later he thought, ‘Well, I can better this.’ Bristols had different engines so he got them to fit more powerful Bristol engines to this Canberra and he went up, and he left the navigator out so it would reduce his weight, and set another world record, which might be even still there to this day. Certainly all the time war was on it was still the record, of about sixty-five thousand feet. Anyway, as I say, I flew with several interesting people, many of them much medal-ridden. One, a chap called Trousdale, he was a New Zealander really, um, but he got the DFC and an AFC and he was also awarded a Dutch [emphasis] DFC because he’d done intruder work in his Beaufighter and he bombed bridges and barges and things like that. Anyway, the Dutch DFC is like ours but is — where the DFC’s got blue and white stripes and the Air Force Cross has got red and white stripes, the Dutch one has got orange [emphasis] and white stripes so, until such time we was issued our campaign medals, these three medals were together. Later on, of course, the Dutch one, being Dutch, would become at the end of his row of medals with the — so you would have the DFC, the AFC, then the campaign medals and then this Dutch one but until that time they were these things and then he was an outstanding chap to look at, he’d got all these strips of different colours. Anyway, he was a very good pilot and, um, one of the flights I did with him, he decided to go in a B17. We had one Flying Fortress, an American Boeing B17. We also had a Liberator there. Anyway, we had to go down to Geschborn, Eschborn [emphasis] in Germany to pick up some equipment which the boffins had left there. As the Army advanced across Germany they got parcelled this stuff up to bring it back to examine it more carefully in this country. And we went over to pick this up and we had to land at Croydon airport coming back, both to clear Customs and to dump off this package of radar equipment, which was going to go Air Ministry to get it in their hands quickly. And so, as we came into land I had wonderful seat right in the nose of this B17. I was navigating on a thing called a Bigsworth board, which was a mobile chart table really. How I came by it? I don’t know. I must have found it somewhere in some odd corner of a RAF station I’d been on. It was from the First World War really. But anyway, it was a very good mobile chart table, and as we flew up the Thames and then turned south to go into Croydon, over the houses, which I hadn’t seen before because they didn’t go that way, bombers obliviously at night but even in daylight we wouldn’t fly over London. Anyway there we were having to fly over London, all these houses, incredible, and we came in and Croydon was a grass aerodrome, didn’t have built-in runways at that time, and I’d been there as a boy, before to war, to see airliners go in and out and, um, I thought, never thought I’d come and land here so it was quite an experience for me to land there. Anyway, um, when I’d finished my two years as a station navigation officer at Defford I was sent to the Pathfinder Training Unit as an instructor and I hadn’t been there very long when the CO said, ‘Oh Frank, go and get your kit. The AOC wants to take a Lanc up.’ The AOC, this was Bennett, Air Vice Marshall Bennett, the most famous navigator in the world, you couldn’t get a — you know, what he hadn’t done, a tremendous man. Anyway, the reason he wanted to go on this flight whilst we had target indicator bombs, which were red and green and one or two yellows but we, our boffins couldn’t get blue and the Germans would make up false target indicators, which they would fire up with their anti-aircraft guns, and try and make people bomb the wrong place so, if they could get a blue marker then the Germans would have — apparently one Dave Brocks [?] said, ‘We’ve got the thing for you. We’ve got a blue marker.’ And so Bennett, being the man he was, said, ‘Right, I want to see it.’ And so, this is why he took a crew made up of other instructors at the Pathfinder Training Unit and, um, I must admit I wasn’t unworried. I was right on my toes because I was ready, knowing that Bennett was an efficiency man, and we took off from Warboys where we were. You could see the Wash and the ranges on it but of course coming the other way I knew very well — but he would knew where he because he knew the place was like the back of his hand. Anyway, I kept the thing right up to date on my G Box. If he asked for a course I could give it to him immediately. And anyway, these marker things, what Brocks had done was to fill marker bomb case with chopped up blue paper and so, when it was burst in daylight, this showered down and make quite a little blue cloud of — in the sky but quite hopeless for a crew to see it and in daylight not at all. So he wasn’t very pleased with that but it was interesting. Well when we landed — By the way Bennett wrote a book on air navigation, I think it might be still the book on it and I had it in my RAF bag and so we landed and I said, ‘Would you mind Sir autographing my book.’ ‘No lad!’ [laugh] I thought he’d be happy to do it. And he turned round to the wireless operator, sorry the flight engineer, and said, ‘And get your microphone checked.’ And this chap had been stuttering and stammering all the way through the flight and I didn’t know him from Adam, of course, it was just other instructors pulled together to make this crew up for the CO, AOC, and he turned round to this flight engineer and said, ‘Get your microphone checked, lad.’ And the chap looked a bit red faced but still. There wasn’t anything wrong with his microphone at all. He was just scared of Bennett. Couldn’t say two words together but you didn’t need to be scared of Bennett. If you were doing your job he would back you to the hilt but if you weren’t doing your job that was another matter. He would soon see you were going to — and he was a great one for training and even when we were on the Squadron we never wasted time. If you weren’t on ops for some reason you’d be sent off on a training exercise. Now, I didn’t worry about this because I could see the benefit of it. It speeds up your work, certainly as a navigator, if you keep in practice every day but some of the boys didn’t like this. They thought it — they would rather go into town [slight laugh] and relax and so on. But anyway, there we were that was Bennett’s method and I think it saved a lot of lives and improved a lot efficiency. So —
GR: So where are we in war time now?
AM: 45? Or 44?
FL: Well, the war came to an end.
AM: 45?
FL: Well, I was eventually demobbed and, um, oh, whilst I was at Defford at the radar establishment I was working on equipment called Airfield Controlled Radar, 3X, X stands for ten centimetre waveband and I said to the wing commander of flight and I said, ‘Look if I’m here to use this equipment and help the boffins I need to get trained as an air traffic control officer.’ He said, ‘Yes I can understand that.’ So I was sent off just on — as duty from Defford to the Air Traffic Control School at, er, Edgeware. I became a — qualified an air traffic control officer so, when I came to be demobbed, I got myself a job with the Ministry of Civil Aviation and, um they were all ex-RAF chaps of course. I was posted to the area control at Uxbridge and one Saturday the boys were going off to lunch and they said, ‘Frank, you’d be alright looking after things.’ I said, ‘Yes, no trouble.’ And a little Airspeed Oxford came in up in, er, distress having flying from the Channel Islands to Southampton lost an engine and this was November, which was not the sort of time to come down in the Channel, cold water and so on. Anyway, as soon as the emergency arose and did what we would have done the RAF always and I picked up the telephone, got through to Mountbatten in Plymouth and said, ‘We’ve got a problem here. Can you have a launch standing by?’ So they said, ‘Yes.’ And alerted a launch somewhere up, probably in Southampton, to get ready to fish someone out of the water. Well, the aircraft landed in Southampton so didn’t leave anyone on tenterhooks waiting for this emergency that no longer existed. I made another telephone call to Mountbatten to say, ‘Thank you very much, stand down, all is OK.’ Come Monday morning, the senior air traffic controller at this centre, who had been at Croydon before the war and how he dodged the war I don’t know but he was in air traffic —, and he, the plane was so antiquated, it wasn’t true. I mean, the RAF had been using radio telephony for ages but not these boys. They were sending turns to land at their simple air fields by WT, on the Morse code, so it meant carrying a wireless operator in the aircraft to trans— for the messages between the air and the ground. Anyway, this chap came in Monday morning and said, ‘What are these two telephone calls to Mountbatten?’ And I explained what it was and he said, ‘Oh no, no, no. You mustn’t do that. Only the Minister can ask the RAF to help. You should have sent a telegram (or a signal he put it but that turned out to be a telegram) to the Minister asking if he would give permission to help these poor blokes.’ Well, by that time they’d had been dead if they had landed in the deep and so I was so infuriated and instead of taking humble pie I said, ‘That is ridiculous, the cost of two telephone calls.’ And all the correct procedures, a far as I was concerned, and the bad thing would have been if I’d left them standing by and hadn’t told them the chap had landed safely. So anyway, instead of eating humble pie, that very morning I had a letter from the Air Ministry in my pocket offering me a permanent commission in the RAF. At this time I was still a volunteer, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. And I thought I don’t know what to do about this but that made up my mind, and I said, ‘I’m going back to the RAF.’ And that was the start of my proper RAF career in post-war days. I did a tour on Lincolns at Waddington and, um, and then I had been doing quite a lot of work on evasion and escape. There was an organisation, the Air Ministry Air Intelligence 9 it was called, and it taught people how to evade and so on and they used to lay on exercises to train people and each station might have one operation perhaps only once a year perhaps, but it laid on that the air crew go off as if they were invading, evading and told they would be dropped off of coaches and they didn’t know where they were, they wouldn’t be told where they were, they had to find out where they were just as if they’d bailed out and, um, and the local police and some army units usually provided opposition for them, trying to catch them. Almost the first exercise that I did, actually organising it, I thought well it’s — when these chaps are caught and brought in to the Police Headquarters, the Police Headquarters were regions around the country, they were being interrogated and I realised that this was not teaching them very much at all because there was no fear at all so they wouldn’t, wouldn’t know quite what, how to react to it. So I had myself, hired myself from Mos Bros an army officer’s uniform as a captain in the artillery with some war medals — oh, and I should say I’d been awarded the DFC in Pathfinders, so I had an MC on this uniform, and the exercise started and I was at the Police Headquarters where these chaps who were caught brought in and I had two big labels put on doors of two different rooms, one saying ‘RAF Interviewer’ and one saying RA— ‘Army Liaison Officer’. So, they would come in and they had been told, of course, to say nothing until the exercise ended on the Monday, the course was over a weekend, and various chaps were brought in and, much to my surprise, one of them was the station commander of RAF Coltishore and he’d decided to go on the run with the boys and he got caught. So anyway, he came in and to me as an Army Liaison Officer and he started to tell me all about the exercise, where they were going, where the [unclear] were and I was taking all this down and when he’d gone I went round to the wing commander policemen who was in charge of the opposition and said, ‘Look if we let this information out it’s the end of the exercise because there’s no point in it so we’ll keep this quiet until Monday morning.’ But then I had to put my report into Air Ministry, which I did, group captain so and so said this, that and the other. He was livid [emphasis]. He was going to have me court martialled wearing a uniform to which I wasn’t entitled, a medal to which I wasn’t entitled and, of course, it had all been laid on by Air Ministry, quite legitimately as far as I was concerned before-hand, and this station commander was none other than a chap called Bing Cross who was always a bit of a firing one. So anyway, that was that. Oh, and then the Suez operation came up and at this time I was at Upwood which was a Canberra station. I was in charge of the ground support system there and, when it as over, it was decided that proper, um, honour should we say, should be given to those who took part and Prince Michael, I think it was, came round and I had to lay out a graphic, get all these photographs that had been taken during the operation in Suez and, of course, you could speak to all the air crew of the squadrons that had gone from Upwood. Well, of course, naturally with such a high ranking visitor the air officer commanding Upwood, which was 1 Group, was Gus Walker, a little man who’d lost an arm during the war when he was rescuing a team, a crew of a bomber that crashed on his airfield at Flintham [?], a wonderful man, and anyway he was there and Cross turned up to represent his squadrons that had taken part in Suez and so Gus Walker, this 1 Group Air Vice Marshal, started to tell Bing Cross, the Air Vice Marshal of 3 Group, about me and I thought, ‘Oh my God.’ And Cross turned round to Gus Walker and said, ‘I know him.’ [laugh] And, much to my surprise, told this tale about himself. I didn’t think he was like that. He’d forgotten over the years perhaps but, um, anyway, he told Gus Walker all about me so that was that.
AM: Gosh, where, where did you —
FL: And then I went out to Korea with the Army still on this evasion and escape drop. I was an Air Ministry liaison officer, the only one north of — well only one in Korea really, certainly —
GR: That’s while the Korean War was on?
FL: Korean Headquarters where I had a little tent and each new lot of soldiers coming in I had to brief them on evading and so on. Well, of course, evading in Korea was very different from evading in this country. I mean, you couldn’t walk around and pretend you were anything other than what you were, with your white face and so on. But, um, so really it was a question of teaching them how to live off the land rather than how to evade but, anyway, that’s what we did and so for two years I was doing that, not only with the Army, I was, I went out onto the boats, HMS Ocean and HMS, oh, the other one. Anyway, there were two aircraft carriers [sneeze] and also I used to work with the Americans, 5th Air Force. I went out on the other coast to one of their big aircraft carriers and spoke to their air crew and so on.
GR: And that would be the early ‘50s, wouldn’t it? 1952, ’53?
AM: No later than that. It’s later than that isn’t it —
GR: The Korean War was ’53.
FL: Anyway, I went back to — well, Air Force Technical Training Command, working in research branch, that was interesting, no flying really, and then from that back — well to 115 here at Marham then, and flying Washingtons, B59s, as the Americans called and I was flight commander on B Flight.
GR: When did you finish in the RAF, Frank?
FL: Sorry?
GR: When did you finish in the RAF the second time around?
FL: Yes —
Frank’s wife: We always forget don’t we?
AM: ‘80s?
FL: Well, oh, from that I was given command of 220 Squadron with Thors, ballistic missiles, so for that I had to go to America to be trained as a launch control officer and ,um, then came back and was stationed up the road at Swaffham, north Ickenham, and when I my tour of duty was finished with that, the only job open for a squadron leader of my seniority, was to run the officers’ mess at one of the three bomber stations and I thought, ‘My God, going from missiles to messes, you know, what is the RAF coming to?’ [laugh] I had long realised that it was a pilot’s Air Force and didn’t have the same promotion chances as navigators. It’s changed now. You’ve got quite a few navigators right up the top but not in those days. If you weren’t a pilot you got nowhere so I thought, ‘Well, I’ll come out.’ And, um, sorry, I can’t think of the year. It doesn’t really matter.
AM: No, it desn’t matter.
FL: So that was the end of my RAF career, running this officers’ mess. In fact, it got me a job in civil life but that’s another story and you won’t want to know about that [laugh]. It’s probably about some of the things in Bomber Command and there’s one flight that I would like to record —
AM: It’s on.
FL: And that’s with 115, from when I was at Witchford. 115 was a big squadron and A and B Flights had used up all the letters of the alphabet because our code letters were KO for 115 Squadron so you had KO, then the roundel and then the aircraft identification A, B, C, whatever it might be. Well, when they got round to C Flight, as I said, they’d used up all the letters of the alphabet so, instead of having KO as the number we had A4. Well, it was a big A and little 4 like a Q and this particular night we’d been down to bomb Friedrichschafen on the —
GR: Maltese [?] coast.
FL: There’s a big lake there now.
Frank’s wife: Lake Constance?
FL: The Messerschmitt factory was in — it was a terrible night, stormy, thunder clouds, bouncing around and I was feeling quite sick. I did suffer from air sickness a great deal in rough aircraft. Anyway, we got down there, markers went down, we bombed the target and turned to come back when we did I didn’t get much help on the way down fixing our positon. And so I knew we obviously — Friedrichschafen that was the name of the place. I knew we’d been at Friedrichschafen when we bombed so from that I could work out what the average speed wind had been since we took off and I thought I’d use this average wind to get home. And the wireless operator couldn’t get me any bearings. Because of these thunderstorms the radio waves had been bounced off the thunderclouds and so the DF direction systems couldn’t help us. It was us on them or them on us. But we got back to where it was over Witchford to Ely and, in those days, all the aircraft had a radio transmission in the aircraft to speak to the ground but it had a limited range of nine miles, deliberately, because there was so many airfields that if it was any wider the ether would be absolutely cluttered with talking so, anyway, we got to where we should have been over Witchford, over Ely, and calling up for a turn to land, deathly quiet, nobody about, no other aircraft, nobody answering. So I thought, ‘Well that’s odd.’ Well, if the wind has changed well we would have been blown this way so I’d go north for ten minutes but then the wind may have gone the other way so I’d go west for ten minutes, still trying to find Witchford, and we had a system, if you were lost you called out ‘Darky’. That was the call sign to get help and any ground station hearing somebody calling ‘Darky’ would answer it with the name of their station. As I said, we were limited to nine miles so you knew you would be within nine miles of that airfield, um, but anyway, nobody answered our Darky call and we went north ten minutes, west ten minutes, north ten minutes, west ten minutes and all the time the bright lights on the fuel tanks were glowing red and I thought, ‘Oh my God, you know, we’re going to be in trouble here.’ And then, just as I was going to tell the crew to — I think I did tell them actually, yes, we sat on the Mae West dinghy, individual pack, and but you didn’t have it clipped to your parachute harness. Normally we just sat on it, that was it, but when you wanted to use it you had to clip it on to the side of your parachute harness otherwise you wouldn’t have a dinghy. So, I warned the crew to hook on their dinghy’s and just at that point we were going north and the rear gunner spotted a searchlight to the rear, to, in other words, to the south and just shining a single searchlight on the cloud. Well, that was, er, quite a normal procedure for showing where an airfield was, a Sandra light it was called, a single searchlight, so we turned to go towards that and I thought, ‘Hang on. We’re going south and we might have been blown a long way south to start with and we could be going to France.’ And we knew the Germans had set up airfields in northern France, along the coast, to make them look like RAF airfields to try and say, ‘Come on in boys. This is where you are.’ Just to capture you, capture the aeroplane, so we carried a little bomb in the aircraft and coming down on hostile country this was to be put in the wing over the fuel tank and then you ignited it, it was an incendiary bomb, and it would burn the aircraft up. And that was the job of the wireless operator was to get out through the hatch on top and go and do this once we’d landed. Anyway, we did quite agree and what I told them to do was for the gunners to protect the aircraft while he was going to do that. Of course, he couldn’t get out until the aircraft had landed, obviously. Anyway, as we got down into the circuit, once we’d broke through this layer of cloud, we could see where the searchlight was shining on the cloud, reflecting all around like daylight underneath, and one of the gunners said, ‘Cor, this is a Messerschmitt over there and a Dornier over there.’ Oh yes, this is one of those German places so I said, ‘Look, gunners stay in their turrets and fight off anyone who comes while we get out and get this bomb burning.’ Well, I used to carry a Mouser pistol because I didn’t like the idea of the RAF only giving you a Bentley 38 with six rounds of ammunition. It wasn’t going to last you very far on the continent but a friend of my fathers had captured this Mouser nine millimetre in the fighting in Russia after, as the First World War ended, and he’d had given it to me so I had this thing. Well, I was going to go to the door and help fight off any Germans coming to try and capture the aircraft and as the tail hit the runway, as we landed, the engines cut, we were right out of fuel. I thought, ‘Goodness me we couldn’t ever get any closer than that.’ Well, we knew it was really low because we’d had red lights on the fuel tanks for some while but, of course, as the engines cut the lights went out because it was the dynamos in the engines that kept the lights going. So, I went on back down to — in the darkness to fiddle with the outside door. Well, it was opened from the outside and a good old English voice said, ‘Oh, 115 Squadron.’ Oh no, there’s something funny about this because, as I said, we didn’t carry 115 letters. We weren’t marked up as KO we were marked as A4 so I thought I’ll put my pistol behind me [laugh] you know, and we found we had landed — oh, sorry as we were approaching it through the static we did pick up the words, ‘Something Ford Bridge standing by.’ I thought Stamford Bridge. Can’t be Yorkshire but it might have been. But anyway where are we? And it turned out what we’d now call Blackbushe, down near Woking . And, um, so it transpired our gunners were quite right, what was happening was that this was just before — well, D -Day hadn’t happened but they were getting ready for it and they got such German aircraft as they caught and assembled there, so that pilots could learn to fly them, so that when the invasion took place they could get over and bring German aircraft back to us. But I was so shattered after that I said, ‘I’m so sorry I can’t stand any more after this. I’m going to resign.’ Of course, it wasn’t just me. It was six other aircraft and they were relying upon me and I failed them. So anyway, when we eventually got back to our base at Witchford the following day, um, the station navigation officer went through my work and said, ‘I couldn’t find any mistakes here. It’s just you didn’t have the information that you needed.’ Well, I said, ‘That’s true. I couldn’t get any information on the way back.’ So, we were just lucky and I said, ‘Well, as a navigator or as an old flying O, I was trained as a gunner. I could go and fly with somebody else in the turret. It didn’t worry me. I’d be quite happy to fly in the turret.’ But the crew said, ‘No, we want you as our navigator.’ I said, ‘Well, you know, we went all through the business of laying mines and mines and so on.’ But we stayed together and carried on with Pathfinders.
AM: Crikey.
GR: Wonderful.
FL: That was a very dodgy, that was the most frightening flight I had.
AM: The dodgiest one of the lot.
FL: Sorry?
AM: The dodgiest one of the lot. You just can’t imagine actually that moment of landing and no fuel. Two more minutes, three more minutes and — gosh. I’ll switch back off again then.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Frank Leatherdale
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-18
Type
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Sound
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ALeatherdaleF151018
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:59:36 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank was an aircraft spotter for the Local Defence Volunteers and volunteered to join the Royal Air Force as a pilot. He went to Calgary in Canada on the Empire Air Training Scheme, where he few Tiger Moths at the Elementary Training School. He was, however, re-mustered as an air observer and qualified in February 1943.
Frank joined 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford, where his crew was formed and flew in Lancaster Mk 2. His first tour consisted of 30 trips, although they only completed 29 because of a change of pilots. He then joined 7 Squadron, part of the Pathfinder Force. He trained at the Pathfinder Training Unit and went to RAF Oakington where they were twice Master Bombers. After his tour, Frank was posted to the Radar Research Establishment at RAF Defford as station navigation officer. It involved several different aircraft and flights (bomber, coastal, naval). He describes several of the interesting people he flew with and the work on Doppler navigation. Frank was subsequently sent to the Pathfinder Training Unit as an instructor and recounts a flight with Air Vice Marshal Bennett, investigating blue target indicator bombs.
After Frank was demobilised, he worked initially as an air traffic control officer before accepting a permanent commission into the RAF. Frank goes on to describe his post-war RAF activities.
Squadron Leader Frank Leatherdale was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his work in Pathfinders.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Worcestershire
Canada
Alberta
Alberta--Calgary
115 Squadron
220 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
B-29
Beaufighter
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Lincoln
Master Bomber
navigator
observer
Pathfinders
radar
RAF Defford
RAF Marham
RAF Oakington
RAF Waddington
RAF Witchford
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3606/BSpencerAHGSpencerAHGv1.2.pdf
e6d81c01549a2be263620cdcd67c798b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Spencer, Arthur
Arthur Humphrey George Spencer
Arthur H G Spencer
A H G Spencer
A Spencer
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history with Flight Lieutenant Arthur Humphrey George Spencer (b. 1921, 1311996 and 145359 Royal Air Force), a memoir and an essay. Arthur Spencer trained in the United States and flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He flew with British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Spencer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-02
2017-02-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Spencer, AHG
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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AN INTERESTING WAR
[page break]
To Jimmy Munro DFC, Ron Bennett DFM, 'Weasel' Hill DFM,
with whom I flew 45 bomber operations, mainly in J-Johnny of 97 Squadron,
to F/Sgt J Underwood, with whom I flew 15,
to Jimmy Silk DFM, Peter Burbridge DFC, and F/Sgt W Waller,
who were shot down over Berlin on the night of 22 November 1943,
and who have no known grave.
All are commemorated on the RAF Memorial at Runnymede.
Near the snow, near the sun, in the highest fields
See how these names are feted by the waving grass
And by the streamers of white cloud
And whispers of wind in the listening sky.
The names of those who in their lives fought for life,
Who wore at their hearts the fire's centre.
Born of the sun they travelled a short while towards the sun
And left the vivid air signed with their honour.
Stephen Spender 1933
[page break]
INTRODUCTION
My son-in law, Richard Knott, sent me in the summer of 2001 an extract from the magazine of the Royal Overseas League, of which he is a member, about the Second World War Experience Centre at Leeds. Having had quite an interesting war, and never having put anything down on paper before, I contacted the Centre with a brief synopsis of my experiences. The Director, Peter Liddle, previously a member of the History Department at Leeds University, responded immediately, and we agreed that since the Centre had no interviewer in the south-west, as it does in the south-east, I would put my recollections on audio-tape. This I did, completing the work early in 2002. The Centre sent me, as arranged, a copy of the transcription made by their transcriber, Carolyn Mumford. She had done a magnificent job on the material I had provided, but as an ex-English teacher, I was horrified by the number of times I had said 'Well...', by the number of times I had strung a series of clauses together with 'and', and by the repetitions of which I had so frequently been guilty. I decided to re-edit the material, using Carolyn's transcription as a starting point; this also gave me the opportunity to include several more anecdotes that I had previously omitted.
A.H.G.S.
August 2002
The more one writes, the more one remembers, so I have added another dozen or so anecdotes, as well as - at the suggestion of John Coote, Weston U3A - a couple of pages of my log-book, to this 'second edition' of my recollections.
A.H.G.S.
April 2003
Jennie Gray, author of 'The Fire by Night', much of which concerns 97 Squadron at Bourn, suggested that the whole would benefit greatly from the addition of photos, so I have completed a third, and probably final, edition with thanks to Jennie and John for their suggestions.
A.H.G.S.
July 2003
[page break]
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages,
What feats he did that day." [sic]
(Henry V before Agincourt)
I hope there won't be too many 'advantages' here, and certainly there won't be many feats' no heroics in this story; I just did as conscientiously as possible the job that the RAF trained me to do.
However, to begin, like 'Under Milk Wood', at the beginning, which is what I was asked to do. I was born in Salisbury, Wiltshire, on February 11th., 1921. We - my Mother, Father, and I, an only son - must have moved to Southampton earlier than I can remember. Throughout my boyhood, my father was a postman there, which meant, of course, that we were never very well off, but at least he had a regular permanent job at a time when there were three million unemployed in this country. At first he walked the rounds; later he became a van driver, which gave him a slightly better income and certainly improved his working hours; later still he became a Head Postman, an indoor supervisory role, but was compelled to retire at 60 instead of being allowed to stay till 65 because of his poor health record.
He had served in the King's Royal Rifles during the first World War. He hadn't been very fit in his early years, which probably saved him from service in the trenches in France. He spent quite a lot of his service in Southern Ireland. He used to tell a rather nice story about being taken by my Grandmother to Salisbury Infirmary when he was quite small; on the way home she had said to him, "Roy, I have to tell you that you will never make old bones." Well, he was 93 when he died, having received a partial disability pension from the army for 69 years, and my Mother had died three months previously within a month of her 90th. birthday, so they both made fairly old bones!
Before I leave my father, it might be worth recounting another story. It concerns a much earlier war, the Boer War. He had been born in 1894, and had just started school when Mafeking was relieved after its long siege. It was a small two-teacher country school at Coombe Bissett, just outside of Salisbury. On the day that Mafekin was relieved - or more likely the next day, for news travelled slowly then - the two teachers came out into the playground, one carrying a Union Jack, and the other beating a drum, and assembled the pupils - not many of them - in a ring. They announced the relief of Mafeking, sang 'God Save the Queen,' and then the children were given the rest of the day as a holiday. He ran home to the next village, Dogdean, but at that early age couldn't say the word 'Mafeking' properly, so my Grandmother, thinking he had run away from school, beat him and sent him back again!
My Mother came from the neighbouring village of Homington and like many country girls had gone 'into domestic service' as soon as she left school. Like almost all married women in the twenties and thirties, she was a housewife who never went out to paid employment, though as the war went on, she went to work in the NAAFI near Southampton Docks for two or three years. She must have been a very
1
[page break]
good manager, for she achieved quite a reasonable standard of living on what must have been a very modest income.
When I started school, I went initially to Swaythling School, about half a mile from where we lived; I was fortunate enough thoroughly to enjoy school and three of us from my year group passed what was then known as the 'Scholarship' examination, and transferred to Taunton's School, a conventional boys' grammar school. It was quite a big school for those days, eight hundred boys with a big Sixth Form. I was always keen on games and probably spent more time on the games field than I should have done, but even so managed to make fairly steady progress through school and at the age of sixteen took a reasonably successful School Certificate with Matriculation exemption. It's probably worth mentioning that the Head had said to my parents at some fairly early stage of my school career that my French wasn't too wonderful; I'm sure this was an understatement; he recommended an exchange with a French family. The school, being right on the south coast, had very good links with France, and many boys went on French exchanges every year. I was lucky enough to go for three successive years, a month each time, to the same family in a little town in Normandy. We all got on very well and my French exchangee, and Jacques and I are still in touch with one another, though I must confess that it's our wives who do most of the writing!
A few years ago my granddaughter, who lives near York, went on a school-to-school exchange (these now seem more usual than the sort of individual exchange which I enjoyed) to a school near Orleans where Jacques now lives and spent a day with him and his wife. She had to compile a scrapbook about the exchange, and in it she has a photo of the two of us when we were fourteen or fifteen, and another when we were in our mid-seventies. An impressive example of life-long learning!
One incident which I recall from my earlier boyhood is a visit, on my father's motorbike, to Lee-on-Solent to watch the last of the Schneider Trophy competitions for the fastest seaplane; the last, because in 1931 the RAF won the competition outright with the Supermarine S6B, forerunner of the Spitfire, competing against Italy. It would be tempting to claim that this experience gave me a life-long passion for aviation; tempting, but quite untrue. It was an exciting and enjoyable day out, but it meant rather less to me at the time than a visit to the Dell in Southampton to watch Southampton F.C. or to the County Ground to see a county cricket match.
After Matric. I went into the Sixth Form (I am horrified now to think what a sacrifice it must have been to my parents to keep me at school, but, of course, I didn't realise it then) and continued to make fairly steady progress; thanks to the exchanges, my French was vastly improved, and this was now one of my Higher School Certificate subjects. In the first year in the Sixth Form came the Munich crisis, and it was pretty clear that war was coming sooner or later. A year later, Germany invaded Poland, and war was declared. Arrangements were in hand to evacuate schools from Southampton. We were lucky enough to go only thirty miles along the coast to Bournemouth. I have a picture of some of the school walking down to Southampton Station, two or three miles from the school, quite a long distance carrying a case, and, of course, a gas mask. The interesting thing about the picture is
2
[page break]
[Photograph captioned "Evacuation: September 2nd, 1939. Dr. H.M.King leads a group approaching Southampton Central Station.]
[page break]
that the teacher holding the placard showing that we were Taunton's School, Southampton, is Horace King, who happened to be my sixth form English teacher, but also became M.P. for one of the Southampton constituencies in the Labour landslide of 1945, and later still, during the Wilson administration, Speaker of the House of Commons, and later still, Lord Mowbray King.
Off we went to Bournemouth. We were very lucky, for our host school, Bournemouth School, had that very term moved into brand new buildings. In fact, the contractors were still working there; the paint was hardly dry. Moreover, the new school had been built on the outskirts of the town with more than adequate playing fields, something that Taunton's School had always lacked in Southampton. I heard Chamberlain's declaration of war sitting in a church hall in Bournemouth on September 3rd. Eventually, after about a fortnight kicking our heels, term began. Arrangements were made for half-day schooling, alternately morning and afternoon, with Bournemouth School, which wasn't quite has bad as it sounds because the half-days were lengthened, and really we didn't miss very much schooling, especially in the Sixth Form.
A friend and I were very lucky in our accommodation. We were billeted with a very kindly landlady in her sweet shop. (Sweet rationing had already started, of course.) He was captain of soccer and cricket, and I was captain of hockey, so it was a very sport-orientated home. As term went on, one or two younger members of Staff disappeared into the forces or into jobs with various Ministries, but on the whole school went on more or less as normal until the early part of the summer, when the Germans broke through the French lines and the evacuation from Dunkirk took place. Eight hundred French poilus were crammed into the building; most of them were very tired, in fact shattered; the weather was very fine, and they spent most of their time lying on the lawn outside the school sleeping. When senior boys of the school were asked to help, it gave me a very good opportunity to get quite a lot of practice in French conversation just before taking my examinations.
At about this time, news came through of the first Old Boy casualty in France, and news of another, now a Sergeant-Pilot, who had been mentioned in despatches. Later there were more casualties, one of them an Old Boy who had been a boy entrant of the Royal Navy and who had been manning a gun on a naval vessel in Portland Harbour when there was an attack by German aircraft; although badly wounded, he kept firing till he died; he was awarded the V.C. His name was Jack Mantle.
Eventually, examinations over, the school year came to an end. With about fifty or sixty other boys, I went off to a forestry camp in Cannock Chase probably harder physical work than I had ever done before, clearing hillsides of saplings; soon after that I applied to join the RAF as aircrew. I was accepted in the pilot/navigator category, but call-up was deferred. So many young men were volunteering for aircrew service at that time that the Air Force couldn't cope with such an influx all at once.
I looked round for a job in the meantime, and found that the ARP were advertising for drivers; I was lucky enough to have a driving licence, so I was able to
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join the Rescue and Demolition Service for two or three months until the RAF required my services. I earned £3 - 3 shillings a week, which was quite a reasonable wage in 1940. While I was serving with the R.& D. there were several daylight raids on Southampton, and we were called into action. One was an attack on the Supermarine works at Woolston where Spitfires were made, and another was on a factory at Eastleigh Airport. However, the RAF eventually remembered my existence, and I finally joined up as an AC2/ut (under-training) pilot early in November, just a week or two before the big night raids on Southampton began.
The RAF still found us too numerous to cope with, so after a couple of false starts at Uxbridge and Blackpool, we eventually reached Wilmslow, Cheshire, for kitting out and drill, universally known as 'square-bashing'. Then we were sent off to man gun-posts at various airfields. Later the RAF Regiment undertook this task. I was sent to Watton in Norfolk, a Blenheim base, and initially to its satellite airfield whose name I can no longer recall. One afternoon, the Luftwaffe raided Watton. Ken Romain, a friend of mine from the same gunpost, had gone into the parent station for a bath, there being no baths at the satellite field, and returned quite considerably shaken by his experiences. One of the attacking aircraft was, in fact, brought down close to the airfield by a device known as PAC (Parachute and Cable), which comprised, as one might expect, of a strong metal cable attached to a parachute so that, when fired vertically, it descended slowly and if the timing was accurate, it ensnared an approaching aircraft; the same principle as a barrage balloon, but low level and temporary. An entrepreneurial photographic section sold postcards of the downed Heinkel 111, from which all the crew survived unhurt, at 6d a card, and no doubt made a healthy profit! I believe that very few aircraft were downed over the land using PAC, but it was markedly more successful when used for convoy protection at sea, especially when, in a later version, a small bomb was attached to the cable.
After some weeks at the satellite field, all u/t aircrew were sent back to the parent station, where life was rather less rigorous. I was lucky enough to be at the gunpost on top of the flying control tower. The regular gunners joked that we were too soft to stand the conditions at the satellite, but I think it was really so that we could be available at short notice when the inevitable posting away from Watton came.
Eventually it did come; we were at last put back on the track of aircrew training, and sent off to the Aircrew Reception Centre at Babbacombe, near Torquay, really for a repetition of the drill and PE training we had already done. We felt rather old hands because some of the intake had come straight from civilian life, whereas we had all of six months service, so we put on the airs of old soldiers! After a few weeks at Babbacombe, we were sent off to ITW, Initial Training Wing, at Scarborough. We were based in the Grand Hotel, right on the cliff-top overlooking the front; we were supposed to undertake an eight weeks course, but the RAF, having neglected us for so long, rushed us through in five weeks. The course included the usual subjects for pilots and navigators: navigation, airmanship, aircraft recognition, meteorology, armaments. I never fail to think of the armaments lectures when I read or hear Henry Reed's poem, "Naming of Parts". In the third verse there is a minor grammatical error, exactly like the corporal who taught us about weapons would make;
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[Photograph, captioned "Heinkel 111 brought down by PAC at Watton, February 18th 1941."]
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[Photograph captioned "On the way to Iceland".]
[Photograph captioned "The RAF Transit Camp 17 km. from Reykjavik."]
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[Photograph showing a signpost indicating "Reykjavik 17 KM."]
[Photograph captioned "Hot springs near the camp."]
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'This is the safety-catch, which is always released
With an easy flick of the thumb. And please do not let me
See anyone using his finger. You can do it quite easy
If you have any strength in your thumb.'
Rumour had it that we would be going to the USA to do our aircrew training, and this proved to be so; we were, in fact, only the second group to go under the Arnold Scheme. America was not yet at war, so we could not go in uniform, and were all kitted out in grey flannel suits, all exactly the same colour and pattern, so really a uniform in itself! We were also, because the British military establishment knew all about service in the tropics, and much to the amusement of the inhabitants of Florida when we eventually got there, issued with pith-helmets; what became of them I can't recall!
We sailed from Gourock in a tiny vessel which used to ply between Liverpool and Belfast and went to Iceland where we were accommodated in a transit camp some 15 miles outside of Reykjavik. It was a fairly horrendous journey; the sea was very rough indeed and nearly everyone was seasick. There was an Anson flying round and round the convoy; I couldn't help wondering just how effective it would be if we really were attacked. Fortunately there were no problems. When we reached Iceland, we were told immediately that Reyjavick was out of bounds, since it was thought to be, like Lisbon, a hot-bed of espionage. The majority of us were quite content to be off the sea, and quite content to be close to hot springs where we could wash, shave, and have an occasional swim.
It was May, so we saw very little darkness; after only a couple of days we were on our way again, bound for Halifax, Nova Scotia. This time we were much luckier in our transport. Only about a hundred of us were put on board an armed merchant cruiser, the Ranpura, the sister-ship of the Rawalpindi which had been sunk earlier during the war. Our ship was armed with one very large gun amidships and we sailed in the middle of the convoy. The Ranpura was large enough to be quite comfortable; just after we had embarked, the ship's commander called us all together, and said something like, "Gentleman" [sic] I must apologise, I realise you are all potential officers, but I haven't possibly got room for you all in the wardroom, but we shall make you as comfortable as possible". We were highly amused, for we weren't used to such treatment in the Air force. It seemed that the Navy was going to treat us in a much more gentlemanly way!
There was one moment of excitement on the way across to Halifax. A couple of days out the sirens sounded, and we all assembled at our boat stations. However, it wasn't a real crisis; the very large American convoy on its way to take over Iceland had come into view, and we were soon released back to whatever we did to occupy our spare time.
Arriving at Halifax, we were put on a train for a couple of days to go to Toronto. When we reached that attractive city, we were sent to a huge RCAF reception centre in the buildings of an old exhibition site, known as Manning Pool. As we marched in probably a bit sloppily, tired after our long journey, a voice shouted "You just over, lads?" We nodded agreement, and a terrific burst of spontaneous
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applause broke out all round the arena from these hundreds of new Canadian recruits. I'm sure we marched with an extra touch of pride in our steps after that.
A few days later, but not before a friend and I had managed to hitch-hike to Niagara Falls one evening, we were off on the train again, but this time in a southerly direction, to Lakeland School of Aeronautics in Florida. We were allowed a week-end's leave at the end of the ten-week course there, so a friend and I hitch-hiked to Miami where we spent two happy days mainly on the beach after we had found a hotel owned, in fact, by a Mancunian who was willing to accommodate us at a very preferential rate. The course at Lakeland was initially for pilot training, but although I soloed successfully and got through the first stage of the training all right, I was soon found out at the next stage at Montgomery, Alabama; I was by no means a natural pilot, and it wasn't long before I was sent back to Canada for remustering.
There were half a dozen of us on the train journey back to Ontario, one of whom was a young man already beginning to carve out a career for himself on the stage, Michael Aldridge; I saw him once or twice after the war when he was performing at Bristol Theatre Royal; he never quite became a star, but late in his career, he did achieve some fame as the garrulous retired headmaster in the BBC series "Last of the Summer Wine". As a navigator he had flown in the Balkan Air Force stationed in the heel of Italy, dropping supplies to partisans in Albania, Greece and Yugoslavia and sometimes even further afield.
Remustering took place at Trenton, Ontario; we were there in December 1941, and were given 5 days leave over Christmas. A friend and I decided that this would be the chance of a life-time to see New York, so we set off to hitch-hike there. Recrossing the border back into the USA took a little time, but eventually we got on our way. There was no shortage of lifts; almost every American who picked us up wanted us to go and spend Christmas with them; they were extraordinarily generous in their desire to be hospitable. (This was only weeks after Pearl Harbour, of course.) However, we insisted that we wanted to get to New York, and once there had three very exciting days. The United Services Organisation provided ample hospitality - free tickets to shows on Broadway, free meals, free tours. Our three days sped by, and all too soon we had to set off back to Canada, hitch-hiking once more through the Appalachians, and so to Trenton.
Soon I was on my way back to Florida again, this time to the United States Naval Air Service training school at Pensacola, where I did complete successfully the course as a navigator. One of my friends at Pensacola was George Brantingham; we stayed at the same units till he completed a tour of operations, and are still in close touch today. The course was very, very strong on theory, and we spent a great deal of time on astro-navigation, but much less strong on practice. My log-book shows less than 30 hours flying at Pensacola, most of that over the sea and with no night-flying, whereas if I had been at an RAF or RCAF school, I would have had between 120 and 150 hours training in the air. In spite of this, the RAF deemed half a dozen of us capable of navigating aircraft which were being ferried back to the UK. We were sent to RAF Ferry Command Headquarters at Dorval, near Montreal. There I crewed up with a very experienced civilian pilot, an equally experienced civilian wireless operator, and a second pilot who, like me, had just
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[Photograph showing a large hangar, captioned "Lakeland School of Aeronautics, Florida."]
[Photograph showing several bi-planes in a line, captioned "The flight line. Stearman PT-13s."]
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[Photograph showing six men in front of a bi-plane, captioned "Five of us with Bill Lethio, our instructor."]
[Photograph showing three men, captioned "Bob, Ginger, and Cyril in U.S. Air Corps "fatigues"
Bob later became Sqdn/Ldr R.G.Knight, DSO., DFC. with 617 Squadron."]
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[Photograph captioned "Pensacola: the weekly letter home."]
[Photograph captioned "Pensacola: practising astro-navigation."]
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[Photograph of a man standing on top of an aeroplane, captioned "Catalinas - PBY-2s - at U.S.N.A.S. Pensacola."]
[Photograph of several men in a classroom, captioned "Ground School".]
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[Photograph of three men outdoors, captioned "Pensacola: more - very relaxed - astro practice".]
[Photograph of the course students, captioned "Course 1A-P-(BQ) leaves Pensacola, May 1942".]
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[Timetable captioned "Flight plan for the ferry-delivery of a Ventura, Gander - Prestwick, May 1942".]
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[Photograph of four men standing outside a military tent, captioned "L.A.C.s Finney, Spencer, Manning and Stephens at No. 3 A.F.U., Bobbington August, 1942".]
[Photograph of three men in RAF uniform, captioned "Sgts. Stephens, Spencer, and Brantingham at No. 16 O.T.U., Upper Heyford, September, 1942. With brevets and stripes at last!"
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finished his training. We were allocated a Ventura to deliver to UK. We did no training flights but were briefed several times, learnt to use the oxygen system and did some dinghy drill, then, after a fortnight, we set out in this little two-engined Lockheed, rather like a Hudson, to fly to Gander, Newfoundland. The range of the aircraft was so limited, that everyone flew to Gander to shorten the Atlantic crossing, and even from there, a tail-wind component was needed! Quite a few of the pilots went via Iceland, or even via Bluey West, the American base in Greenland, but my pilot decided he wanted to fly straight across. We waited a fortnight for a favourable wind. In spite of the limitations of my training, we managed to make a landfall in Northern Ireland, and so on to Prestwick.
All aircrew arriving back in the UK from wherever they were trained were sent to Bournemouth, which, of course, was no hardship to me because I was able to spend a night or two at home in Southampton, and to visit my old school, still evacuated to Bournemouth. One incident which occurred during my brief stay there I do recall quite vividly; one afternoon, two Messerschmidt 109s swept in from the sea low over the roof-tops, each carrying a single bomb, which they deposited on hotels where air crew just arrived were billeted. They succeeded in killing a few young Canadians, newly arrived, who hadn't yet got into the war at all.
From Bournemouth we were sent on to Advanced Flying Units, in my case to Bobington, later called Halfpenny Green, near Stourbridge, in the Midlands. These Units were intended to familiarise aircrew who had trained in the good weather of Florida, South Africa and Rhodesia and elsewhere, where there were no nightly black-outs and there was excellent weather, with the very different conditions in this country. Once again, however, the course was considerably shortened; eight weeks again became five and then Bomber Command demanded our presence. All the members of our course were posted as sergeants since there was no time for commissioning interviews. I rather resented this at the time, but in the end it worked out much to my advantage, for had I been a pilot-officer I might well not have crewed up with the outstanding young Canadian who became my pilot, then a sergeant like myself.
The next stage of training was OTU, Operational Training Unit, at Upper Heyford, a few miles outside of Oxford. This was very much a pilot orientated course, and quite rightly so, Because the pilots, who previously had not flown anything bigger than an Oxford, had to convert to much bigger, heavier, operational aircraft, the Wellington. It was also important for the opportunity to crew up. Wellington crews at that time had five members: pilot, navigator, bomb-aimer, wireless operator, and rear-gunner. George said to me one day very soon after we had arrived at OTU, "I have got myself a pilot". He had teamed up with a larger-than-life American who had gone north of the border to join the RCAF. I approached this American at the next opportunity and said that I had heard he had got a navigator; could he recommend a pilot to me? He thought for a moment and said "Well, I reckon young Jimmy Munro is one of the best pilots on our course". That brief conversation is probably the reason I'm still here today! I saw Jimmy as soon as possible. No, he hadn't a navigator at that stage, and would be happy to take me on. I was keen to get a bomb-aimer who had also done navigation training; there were a lot of excess navigators finishing training at that time and some of them were converted to bomb-aimers. It seemed to me that we
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might as well have a second navigator rather than someone who had done only bomb-aimer training. Jimmy said at once, "Well, you find someone". In fact I already had my eye on a bomb-aimer wearing an Observer's brevet, which indicated that he was a qualified navigator, Eric Suswain, so that made three in the crew. In the meantime Jimmy had spotted a likely wireless operator, Snowy (I'm not sure that I ever knew his real Christian name) Nevard, son of an Ipswich publican, whose chief interest in life was horse-racing, and a rear gunner. The latter was a wizened little figure, Wesley Hill; I well remember my first conversation with him; he said "Everyone calls me Weasel!". He had been brought up in the Rockies with a gun in his hand, and to see him at clay-pigeon shooting was a revelation; he never missed one whereas if I hit one in twenty shots I was doing pretty well!
Once the pilots were converted to Wellingtons, we flew a number of cross-country flights together, some of them at night. Occasionally these night exercises were known as 'bullseyes'. These took aircraft over what would normally be highly defended areas; the searchlights attempted to cone the aircraft, and no doubt the anti-aircraft gunners honed their radar skills, but they didn't, of course, actually open fire. I've often wondered if the local citizens, seeing all the searchlight activity, but hearing no ac-ac asked themselves what was going on. Towards the end of the course all crews did what was known as a 'nickel', a leaflet operation over France or some other occupied territory. In our case we went to Nantes, and since we had to fly between that city and the highly defended port of St. Nazaire, a German U-boat base, so that the leaflets were blown downwind, we were subject to quite a lot of flak; we even heard several bursts in the Wellington, so they must have been fairly close to us, but we got home without any damage.
Our social life at Upper Heyford centred almost entirely on Oxford, there being transport to the city every evening, and a return bus quite late. George and I decided that as non-dancers we were 'socially constipated' and determined to put this right, so, most evenings, when we weren't flying, we attended Brett's Dancing Academy, and by the time we left Upper Heyford, we were probably better dancers than navigators.
Towards the end of our course at OTU we were on the airfield one afternoon when almost one hundred Lancasters swept across at low level and in loose formation. They were on their way to a low-level daylight attack on Le Creusot, and the impressive sight, the first time we had seen Lancasters en masse, more than confirmed our hope that we would be bound for a Lancaster squadron, rather than one equipped with Halifaxes or Stirlings.
We were lucky; at the end of our sixteen-week course we were posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Swinderby, just outside of Lincoln, a Lancaster HCU. This course, like OTU, was strongly pilot orientated, for the pilot now had to take a further step forward, and learn to fly a larger four-engined aircraft. Jimmy took to Lancasters like a duck to water. We flew circuits round the airfield, both by day and by night; we did several bombing practices over the Wash, but didn't undertake any longer cross-country flights. While there we picked up two more crew, Ron Bennett, a mid-upper gunner, and Harry Townsley, a flight-engineer. Just before Christmas 1942, three crews from that course made the short railway journey from Lincoln to
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[Photograph of two men in uniform, captioned "Sergeants Jimmy Munro and Arthur Spencer on leave at Southampton from OTU."]
[Photograph of one man in uniform, captioned "P/O Spencer at Southampton, August, 1943."
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[Photograph of crew in front of the tail end of their Lancaster, captioned "The original crew of J-Johnnie at Woodhall Spa, January 1943. Harry Townsley, 'Snowy' Nevard, Eric Suswain, Jimmy Munro, 'Weasel' Hill, Arthur Spencer, and Ron Bennett, then all Sergeants."]
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Woodhall Spa, where we joined 97 Squadron. One of the crews was that of Bill Tracey, the American I mentioned, with my friend George Brantingham as his navigator; the third was Doug Jones. The real war was getting nearer.
So here we were at last on an operational squadron. 97 Squadron was one of the first in Bomber Command to be equipped with Lancasters and had been one of the two squadrons to take part in the famous daylight raid on Augsburg in April 1942. The other squadron, 44, from Waddington, lost five of their six aircraft; their CO, the sole survivor from 44, flew a badly damaged aircraft home, and was awarded the VC. 97 lost only one of their six, Squadron Leader Sherwood, a flight commander, who was blown up over the target. He was the only survivor from his crew, and was awarded the DSO.
Now one might have thought that 97 Squadron would be keen to unleash us against the enemy as soon as possible; not so! They were not going to let a new crew, a 'sprog' crew to use then current slang, loose on one of their precious Lancasters without checking them out pretty thoroughly. We did a couple more cross country flights, and three more 'bullseyes' - one over Portsmouth and Birmingham, another over the Humber Estuary, and the third over Plymouth and Southampton - before they decided we were fit to go. As was usual for new crews at that time, we went 'gardening'. That is, our first operation was mine-laying. I suppose that we were lucky that we didn't go to one of the north German estuaries or to the Baltic; those trips could be quite 'dicey'. We went to the much quieter Gironde estuary and placed four 1500 lb. mines across the mouth of the river. We were short of petrol on the way back, and landed at Beaulieu in the New Forest, a Coastal Command station. The ground crew there had never seen a Lancaster before, and swarmed all over it, making it unserviceable! We had to wait several days till our own ground crew came down from Lincolnshire; it meant that once more I was able to spend a couple of nights at home in Southampton. In the meantime, the other two crews who had joined 97 Squadron with us had been fully blooded with a raid on Berlin.
Eventually, after a week's leave, our first real operation of Germany came at the end of January. It was, like so many subsequent trips, to the Ruhr; to Dusseldorf. We carried one 4,000 lb. bomb, and 12 small bomb containers (sbc.) each of 90 four-pound incendiary bombs. As we were approaching the target, and having given Jimmy the course out of the target area, there was no more I could do till the bombs were released, so I handed over to the bomb-aimer and asked Jimmy if I could move up to the front to have a look; normally, of course, I was working over charts and maps so I was behind a black-out curtain. He agreed, and I moved forward to be absolutely horrified; there seemed to be searchlights and flak all over the sky, and I just couldn't comprehend how an aircraft could survive in such a maelstrom of fire. When I thought about it more calmly afterwards, I realised that much of what one could see was really puffs of smoke from shells which had burst long before we entered the target area, and that it wasn't quite as bad as it appeared to a novice navigator at first glance. Eventually, I even got used to it! Bombs gone, we were much lighter, and with nose slightly down we sped home; I see from my log-book, that the flight lasted 4 hours 55 minutes.
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[Extract from Author's log book covering ten operations/flights carried out in March 1943]
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New crews at a squadron normally flew any aircraft that was available before graduating to 'their own' machine; we flew two or three raids in this way, but soon found an aircraft we liked, so Jimmy approached the Flight Commander to enquire if he would allocate us J-Johnnie; he was quite willing to do this thereafter J-Johnnie, and, of course, its associated ground crew, was our regular Lancaster. Either Jimmy, or the ground crew, invented a (I believe) fictitious Jane who was alleged to be Jimmy's girl-friend in Canada, and a scantily clad young lady soon appeared on the nose of our aircraft, rather like the Daily Mirror's famous Jane, with a lengthening row of bombs, one for each operation, alongside her.
Over the next weeks we operated against Hamburg, Cologne, Hamburg again, Nuremberg, St. Nazaire, the German submarine-base, where we were quite badly damaged in one of the starboard engines, Berlin, Hamburg yet again, and Krupps at Essen. This raid on Krupps was the first occasion upon which Oboe, the most accurate of the new navigational aids, but with a limited range, and carried only by Mosquitoes, was used. It was the first time any really serious damage was caused to Krupps, and we were lucky enough to get an aiming point picture. There were further raids on Nuremberg. Munich, Duisburg, where a fair amount of damage was done to the perspex at the front of the aircraft by flak, but no-one was hurt, Berlin, Krupps at Essen again, Kiel, Duisburg, Frankfurt, and La Spezia, where we did six runs over the target to try to get it right, suffered quite a lot of minor flak damage, and landed at Tangmere on return short of petrol because of those six runs! This was our last operation from Woodhall Spa and indeed in the Main Force of Bomber Command. We had survived 22 operations, and had, I think, been a reasonably successful crew; we had been coned by searchlights two or three times, which was a fairly terrifying experience, and had occasionally suffered minor flak damage, but nothing of too serous a nature.
During that period of three months, 97 Squadron had lost six aircraft. One of these was Sergeant Plaunt, a Canadian, in the raid on Essen on March 12th; he lived, like most of the NCOs, in a Nissen hut set in a little copse just off the road from Coningsby to Woodhall; at the end of the lane leading to the huts was a searchlight site. There were three such sites around the airfield, primarily for airfield defence, but also to form a cone over the airfield when we were returning from operations. Sergeant Plaunt had befriended and been befriended by the searchlight crew, and I remember how upset these soldiers were when they heard he had gone missing.
The last loss the Squadron suffered before we moved from Woodhall was Flying Officer Norton, who was lost after a raid on Berlin on March 29th. We returned from Berlin immediately behind him, and were told to circle at a certain height while Flying Control dealt with his aircraft. He called up for permission to land, and was given permission, but did not acknowledge; Flying Control called him again, and yet again, but still there was silence. Since we were next in the queue in our J-Johnnie we were now given clearance to land. We found later that Norton's aircraft had crashed in the village with the loss of the whole crew. Why he crashed I never knew. He was quite an experienced pilot. Perhaps he had a bomb hanging up on board which exploded; perhaps it was a momentary loss of concentration; perhaps the delayed result of some flak damage over the target; I have often wondered; he had
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been to Berlin and back successfully, and was lost at the last moment on his way home.
One of the advantages of life as aircrew was, of course, that when you were not 'dicing' (i.e. dicing with death) you led a very civilised life; nothing was too good for operational aircrew and you were not under constant fire like the troops in the trenches during the first World War. Our own social activity was based mainly upon the Sergeants' Mess and a local pub, the Leagate, in Coningsby. The Mess was very friendly, largely because it was small; we were a two-flight squadron, that is one made up of about sixteen or seventeen crews, and would be expected to send out eleven or twelve aircraft on a raid requiring maximum effort. While the officers messed at the requisitioned Petwood Hotel at Woodhall Spa, our mess was closer to Coningsby with the airfield in between. Most of the nights when we were not flying we would go to the Leagate. I went there again for the first time since April 1943 in September 2001; from the outside the inn was instantly recognisable and the bar, too, had not changed. Elsewhere there were great changes; it was now a hotel with bedrooms, and the area where we used to eat off rough tables was now a smart restaurant.
The landlord at the Leagate used to be able to provide us with a very substantial mixed grill during those first few months of 1943; he told me that on one occasion he had been visited by a Ministry of Food Inspector who had asked who most of his customers were. The landlord explained that they were mainly sergeants from the local airfield who patronised the pub on nights when they were not flying; the Inspector immediately increased his ration allowance, which I though was a very generous gesture indeed.
Occasionally I would ride my bike to the Leagate, and on one such occasion it was stolen. There were a lot of Irish navvies working on airfield construction in Lincolnshire, and when I reported the loss to the police, they said "Oh, I expect we shall find it in one of the Irish camps", and so they did and returned it to me. Later I lost it for good when it was taken from outside the briefing room while we were being briefed to go to Berlin. I felt this was adding insult to injury by stealing my bike at this time! It wasn't as if it was a service bicycle; it was my own bike on which I had cycled to school for many years. Once I had settled on an airfield, my parents sent it to me by train from Southampton. It arrived safely at Woodhall Spa Station, so I hitch-hiked from Coningsby to collect it.
The nearest town to the airfield was Boston Spa and a 'liberty' bus ran there every evening. We used it once or twice to go to Boston to visit the cinema I usually went with 'Sus', our bomb-aimer, but I can't remember a single film I saw there, and the occasions were pretty rare.
During March three crews, captained by Flight Lieutenants Maltby, newly arrived at the squadron, McCarthy, and Munro, began intensive low-level training. They were not screened from operations, but went off most days when there were no ops. to practise at almost zero feet. On one of these flights, the navigator of one of the crews, by coincidence the other Munro, but a New Zealander, was injured in what nowadays we would call a bird-strike. His crew were scheduled to go on
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operations, and I was detailed to go with him since we were not operating that night. We flew an air-test in the morning, but operations were cancelled ('scrubbed' was the term we used then) even before we got to briefing, so the name of one of the Dambusters appears in my log-book, (see the extract for March, 1943) but only for an air-test. For it was for the Dams raid that these three crews were practising, we later realised.
Eventually they went off to Scampton to join 617 Squadron under the command of Guy Gibson. McCarthy and Maltby both successfully completed the dams raid and both were decorated with the DSO; the latter, however, was killed in September when his aircraft plunged into the sea; Munro was unlucky enough to be hit by light flak crossing the Dutch coast which destroyed his intercom., so he had no alternative but to return to Scampton, though he went on to have a very distinguished career as a Flight Commander in 617 under both Gibson and Cheshire. Another successfully to complete the dams raid was Dudley Heal who had been on the navigation course with me at Pensacola; his pilot was Flight Sergeant Brown, a Canadian who won the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for his part in the operation.
I ought not to leave Woodhall Spa without referring to the Squadron C.O. He was Wing Commander G.D. Jones, D.S.O., a rather stern unsmiling man who seemed rather remote to us sergeants; while I was with the Squadron (he left soon after we moved from Woodhall) he operated against only two targets, but did so whenever those targets were to be attacked; they were the two most heavily defended targets in Europe, Essen and Berlin; needless to say, the crews had enormous respect for him.
At the beginning of April, rumours began to circulate that 97 Squadron would soon be on the move; in the middle of the month, Air Marshall Cochrane, the Air Officer Commanding 5 Group came to Woodhall and announced to the assembled squadron that we would be joining Pathfinder Force in the near future; in fact by no means the whole squadron made the move; three crews were just off to 617; three crews were so close to the end of their tour that it was decided they should not join Pathfinders, but stay at Woodhall to join the new squadron being formed there and finish their tours with them, while one or two crews that we had lost recently had not yet been replaced. It was, therefore, by no means a complete squadron that flew off to Bourn, a satellite of Oakington, just outside of Cambridge on April 18th. As a WAAF in Woodhall subsequently wrote to me, "The last I saw of you was disappearing in a fairly ropy formation towards the south". She was quite right; it was a fairly ropy formation, but after all, night bomber pilots were, unlike their American daylight counterparts, not particularly skilled at formation flying, even though it had been stressed before we left that we ought to put on a good show for our departure.
We landed at Bourn, 5 miles west of Cambridge on the A45, the main road towards St. Neots and Bedford and soon found that 97 was to be transformed from the small two-flight squadron it had been all the time we were at Woodhall to a much larger three-flight unit, so that we now had between 27 and 30 crews on strength, and would be expected to send out about 18 or 20 aircraft on operations requiring maximum effort.
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We were placed in the new 'C' Flight, which was notable because it was commanded by a navigator, Wing commander Alabaster, DSO, previously the Group Navigation Officer. Most of the new crews that had joined the squadron at this time were returning for a second or even third tour of operations. Some of them had flown with 97 before; one such was Flight Lieutenant Rodley who had been one of the pilots to take part in the Augsburg raid a year before. The inevitable consequence of the enlargement of the Squadron was that the messes were much bigger, and some of the crew didn't take very kindly to the new Sergeants' Mess which was certainly rather a barn of a place compared with the warm, cosy mess we had left at Woodhall. The Officers must have been even more dismayed to have left the comforts of a top-class country hotel for a ramshackle wooden wartime building with fairly primitive billets around it.
Crews joining Pathfinder Force normally went to RAF Upwood, the Pathfinder Training School, but because we had moved as a squadron, the staff of the school visited us. Wing Commander Mahaddie came as 'Headmaster', a very much decorated officer, and we saw a great deal of Air Vice Marshall Bennett, the Air Officer Commanding 8 Group. I was very surprised how frank they were in talking to us, even in front of us Sergeants; they were both very critical of those regular officers who commanded their stations who were more interested in discipline and the smartness of their stations rather than the operational efficiency of the squadrons based there. Most of these Group Captains who commanded the stations had no experience of operational flying during World War II whereas Mahaddie, an ex-Halton 'brat' had an extremely impressive row of decorations, and Bennett had been awarded a DSO when he was shot down over Norway and walked home. Whereas at both Operational Training Unit and at Heavy Conversion Unit, the emphasis had been on the pilots, and quite rightly so, since they were learning to fly a much larger operational aircraft, now the importance of navigators and bomb-aimers was stressed; pilots, said Bennett, were merely chauffeurs to get the really important people, the navigators and bomb-aimers, there to put the target-indicators (TIs), flares and bombs down in the right place; all very encouraging for the morale of those of us who were in these two 'trades', as the Air Force called them!
We spent a fortnight in very intensive training both on the ground and in the air. We flew several cross-country exercises, some of them very long distance, and we learnt to use new equipment: the Mark 14A bombsight, the air position indicator, new radar devices. The emphasis was very much on navigational accuracy, and much higher standards were expected than had been the case in the main force or at OTU. I recall that on one of the cross countries, we were 70 miles off the east coast of Scotland at 20,000 feet on a brilliantly fine day, and we could see right across to the west coast and beyond; a marvellous sight.
After a fortnight, on May 5th., we did our first operation from Bourn, to Dortmund, the first raid on which more than 2,000 tons of bombs were dropped in a single operation. We didn't, on this first operation with PFF, carry any TIs., just a very heavy load of HE bombs, 1x 4000lb., 4x 1000lb., 6x500lb. and 2x250lb. That night is particularly memorable because we had our first and only serious encounter with a German night-fighter. We had just left the target - it was a good job that enormous load of bombs had gone! - when there was a shout from the rear gunner,
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'Turn to port and dive!' Jimmy didn't need telling twice; we were almost over on our backs and screaming away to the left; both our gunners were firing and the aircraft filled with the smell of cordite. Within moments it was all over; the German fighter disappeared into the darkness and didn't come back for a second attempt. It wasn't, I thought, a good omen for our career in Pathfinder Force.
The interesting thing from my point of view was that at that moment, when everything was happening, I didn't feel particularly afraid. There had been many previous occasions when we were making our way across Germany when one of the gunners had called up to say, "There's an aircraft out on the port (starboard) side, Jimmy; I can't see what it is but I'll keep an eye on it." On many such occasions, I had felt very afraid, but now that it was all happening, I didn't; I suppose it all happened so quickly, and there was such a rush of adrenaline that I didn't have time to be scared! There was one occasion when both gunners were certain that there was a German fighter flying along almost parallel with us, but presumably it didn't see us, nor spot us on its radar, or, more likely, was already following some other aircraft. Anyway, it didn't bother us, so, I'm sure wisely, we didn't bother it.
For the next couple of months, with the short nights of summer, my log-book looks like a Baedecker Guide to the Ruhr; Dortmund again - this time we did carry TIs so we began to feel like real Pathfinders - Dusseldorf, Cologne, Bochum, Dusseldorf again. In the middle of May, Jimmy's commission came through, Pilot Officer Munro; it wasn't long before I too was commissioned, appropriately dated April 1st. My friend George Brantingham was commissioned the same day; he now lives in Somerset and we see one another quite frequently; he pulls my leg that he is senior to me because although we were commissioned on the same day, his number was 145358, whereas mine is 145359. I tell him it's only because 'B' comes before 'S' in the alphabet.
We returned from one of our operations to the Ruhr to find East Anglia fogbound and were diverted to RAF High Ercall in Shropshire. I was very impressed that the station was able to cope with fifty or sixty Lancasters arriving probably at very short notice, debriefing us, giving us all an operational breakfast of eggs and bacon, accommodating us, and even providing us with some basic toilet kit so that we could have a shave and wash and brush-up before returning to Cambridgeshire the next afternoon.
Operations went on, but intensive training also continued. We flew more bullseyes over Plymouth, Liverpool and Manchester. These flights usually included a 'bombing' run on Goole Docks! A camera would show how accurate this was by picking up an infra-red light on the target; we must have 'bombed' Goole dozens of times! Another form of training was fighter affiliation. We would climb laboriously up to approximate operational altitude and then notify base that we were there; a Spitfire or Hurricane would then take off from a nearby fighter station and attempt to shoot one down, not literally, of course, but it carried a camera gun, and a subsequent analysis of the film would reveal how successful he had been, and also how successful the bomber had been in evading his attentions.
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It was normal on these occasions as a measure of economy to carry two rear gunners; one would be at the guns in the turret, while the other waited his turn just outside. Jimmy was something of a fighter pilot manqué, and would throw the Lancaster around the sky as if it were a fighter. On one such occasion, the rear gunner of another crew was installed in the turret, while Weasel, our own gunner, waited his turn just outside. Now, immediately outside the rear turret of a Lancaster is the Elsan toilet; Jimmy went into such a steep diving turn at high speed that the Elsan became detached from its housing, and deposited its content all over Weasel! No one could go near him for days afterwards, but eventually stores took pity on him, and although it was very difficult in those hard days of 1943 to get any new uniform, they finally decided it would be in everyone's interests if he had a new battledress, and certainly we in the crew of J-Johnnie appreciated it.
June came; the Battle of the Ruhr continued. We flew an air test in the morning, quite certain from the order of battle petrol and bomb load that we would be over Happy Valley again that night. We landed and taxied to dispersal. There waiting for us was the Flight Commander's van. 'Oh dear,' we thought, 'we're in trouble,' for only a few minutes before we had been 'shooting up' a train just outside Cambridge. This time, however, we were lucky. As the engines stopped, the Flight Commander called up to our pilot, "Jimmy, you're to take a week's kit, and fly up to Scampton directly after lunch." "O.K. What for?" "I don't know, you'll get all the gen. when you get there."
We didn't object; we would be happy to miss yet another visit to the Ruhr - the target that night turned out to be Cologne, in fact. The Ruhr raids had been going on for two months or more, and losses were increasing. While we had been in Main Force, losses had been about 2.4%; now they were up to 4%, so that on most nights there were usually one or two crews who failed to return. So, we had lunch, packed a week's kit, and with three other crews, Rodley, Sauvage and Jones, flew leisurely northwards till we saw Lincoln Cathedral appear from the haze, and dropped down to Scampton. Rumour had been fairly rife as to what would be expected of us at Scampton, as it was, of course, the home of 617 Squadron, the Dambusters. When we arrived, initially everything seemed to be chaotic. No one knew why we were there, and the squadrons in residence felt rather insulted that four Pathfinder crews should help them do anything. They were quite capable of looking after themselves. However, we settled ourselves in the Mess, formed a solid block in case of hostility, and awaited developments.
We didn't have to wait long. We were taken aside by an elderly Group Captain; when I use the term 'elderly,' he was probably all of 35, but we were all in our late teens and early twenties, so he seemed pretty elderly to us. He explained that there was to be a special operation by fifty plus of 5 Group's Lancasters led by the four Pathfinder aircraft, against a special target. Where? He couldn't or wouldn't tell us. When? Soon. That was all he did tell us except that several practices would be held during the next few evenings over Wainfleet Sands, a practice bombing range adjacent to the Wash, and that we were not allowed to go into Lincoln. That was rather disappointing, as everyone in Bomber Command had been stationed near Lincoln at some time or other, and the 'Saracen's Head' was worth revisiting. Sadly, it doesn't exist any more. However, we consoled ourselves by making up for this in the Mess,
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[Photograph captioned: "OF-J-Johnnie and crew just before bombing-up with TIs."]
[Photograph captioned: "Crew and ground crew and a 'cookie' in front of J-Johnnie, August 1943]
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and during the evenings flew over the Wash. Two of the Pathfinder crews - P/O Jones and ourselves - illuminated the target at the range with flares, two - Rodley and Sauvage - marked it with TIs, and the main force bespattered it with 11 lb. practice bombs. This, it had been decided, would be the plan of attack for the eventual operation, though using something heavier than 11lb. bombs, of course. P/O Jones's navigator, P/O Jimmy Silk DFM, and I became aware that there was considerable onus on us, since we would be putting down the first flares.
After a couple of days passed like this, we were briefed. The target was to be the old airship hangar at Friedrichshaven on Lake Constance, which was being used as an assembly shop for the construction of German radar sets. The Air Commodore in charge of the briefing added that the target was worth bombing from our own point of view, because the radar sets now in the hangar were destined for the Ruhr where they would considerably strengthen the defences. There was a murmur round the room that if he had been to the Ruhr recently, he would realise that the defences certainly didn't need any improvement, and the briefing continued.
The attack was to take place on the first clear night; perfect weather was needed at the target because of its pinpoint nature, very unlike the big areas which had been successfully 'coventrised' in the Ruhr. For the same reason a full or almost full moon was required, so that if the attack didn't take place within the next night or two, it would be cancelled altogether. Finally, and almost off-handedly, it was mentioned that Friedrichshaven was much too far into the continent for us to cross the enemy coast in both directions in darkness, so we were to fly south from the target over the Alps, cross the Italian coast just before dawn, and land at one of the newly acquired airfields in North Africa. "Have a good trip, chaps." We spent the afternoon drawing very basic tropical kit from stores, (no one had any badges of rank), preparing maps and charts, and calculating times.
In the evening the weather seemed very good and we walked optimistically to the Met. Office. The Met. Officer, however, was not optimistic. He shook his head gloomily. "No, not tonight." The next day passed slowly. We did an air-test, then sat in the mess playing shove-halfpenny. In the afternoon, a preliminary forecast was issued, which promised much better weather conditions than the night before. Eventually news came through; "Operations tonight." We had an operational meal, stowed away navigation equipment, flasks of coffee, and a parcel of sandwiches. The gunners dressed in their Irvines; we strapped on our Mae Wests and parachute harnesses, and taxied to the end of the runway.
We took off at 21.40, double British Summer time on the eve of the summer solstice, so there was still ample light. We climbed out of the Lincolnshire mist, and as we gained height we could see other Lancasters climbing from neighbouring airfields. Reading was to be our turning point, and we remained in a bunch to the coast, Selsey Bill. When we reached the coast, it was much too early, for it would still be light on the other side of the Channel. Sixty Lancasters circled the Bill and fighters from Tangmere, the nearby fighter station, came up and fluttered around inquisitively. Soon, well before I intended to let my pilot set course, one or two more adventurous spirits headed south once more. As the last light faded we could see the French coast in the distance, and set course. It had long been the custom for
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southbound aircraft to cross the coast at Cabourg, a little French sea side resort opposite Le Havre, which I had visited several times before the war when I was on my exchange visits to Normandy. We could always reckon on stream of light flak from the coast, and we were not disappointed; red, green and yellow tracers drifted slowly into the evening air, and extinguished themselves thousands of feet below us. We smiled contemptuously and put our nose down slightly to increase speed by 30 knots to take us through the fighter belt along the French coast.
There was scarcely any wind; navigation was no problem, and the Loire appeared on time. We turned east at Orleans, always very badly blacked out. The weather, which had till then been perfect, now deteriorated; thick cloud above prevented any use of the sextant, and obscured the light from the moon by which we would have seen something of the ground. We didn't worry, however for an occasional drift taken on a light showed that our track was being made good, and we knew that we should see the Rhine, no matter how bad the weather, and in any case the guns at Mulhouse would probably warn us of its whereabouts. Suddenly there was a shout from Jimmy, "Rhine coming up!" We were fortunately right on time, and right on track. Basle, just to the south, was brilliantly lit up, and we set course for Lake Constance, the Bodensee - the Swiss side as briefed. The Swiss illuminated a few ineffective searchlights, and fired a few ineffective shells. The engineer told us the unlikely story of an RT conversation between the pilot of a Flying Fortress, and the officer in charge of a Swiss anti-aircraft battery. The Fortress was over Switzerland, probably by mistake since the American navigation was not particularly accurate. "You are over Swiss territory. We shall open fire," called the Swiss officer. "I know," called the pilot, and a few moments later, "Your shells are bursting a thousand feet too low." "I know," replied the Swiss officer. We laughed, and circled the rendezvous point, a small headland, on the Swiss shore of Lake Constance. At Z-4 we set off across the lake on the agreed course, and seconds after crossing the opposite coast, we started releasing flares across Friedrichshaven; moments later a parallel line of flares appeared on our left. The defences were very active indeed; some were accurate too and we could hear shells bursting just below the aircraft; they rocked us about a bit, and shrapnel rattled against the fuselage, but without doing us any real harm. As our last flares fell, a searchlight fastened on to us, and immediately a dozen others held us fast. We twisted and turned frantically, and finally Jimmy dived from 12,000 feet to 2,000 feet out of the target area. Meanwhile the other two Pathfinder aircraft had marked the target with red and green TIs and the Master of Ceremonies was telling the main force aircraft which had been placed most accurately. Soon their bombs were raining down. It was very satisfying because we could see the results of our bombing, something we had rarely seen before; in eighteen visits to the Ruhr, we had seen the ground only twice. We climbed back to lay some more flares and add our few small bombs to the general conflagration. Once again the searchlights picked us out from the 60 aircraft circling round - the four Pathfinder planes were flying lower than the Main Force whom the MC had ordered to climb an extra 5,000 feet because of the intensity of the defences. Once again we were given all the attention of the flak but this time Jimmy turned hard about and dived out over the lake. Our contribution was complete. Soon the MC pronounced that the raid was at an end, and ordered us to climb hard for the Alps.
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[Photograph taken in front of an aircraft hangar, captioned: "Jimmy and the gunners at Bourn, September 1943."]
[Photograph taken in front of a Lancaster, captioned: "Some of the crew and ground-crew, September, 1943."]
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[Photograph captioned: "Jimmy and batman - and his dog - at Bourn, September, 1943."]
[Photograph of men on and around a tractor, in front of an aircraft, captioned: "(left to right) Underwood, Suswain, groundcrew, Bennett, Spencer, groundcrew, Hill, Munro, groundcrew, groundcrew in front of J-Johnnie (note the increasing line of bombs) at Bourn, August, 1943."]
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The Alps were very blue in the summer moonlight; as soon as we had crossed the mountains, we dropped down across the Italian coast and flew low over the Mediterranean. Oxygen masks were taken off; coffee was handed round; the wireless operator picked up some light music. The sun rose; the sea sparkled. We flew just over the wave-tops to escape radar cover. We realised that we were tired, but the excitement of this shuttle-service operation kept us all awake. An occasional smoke-float checked our track, and in two hours the coast appeared......enveloped in thick fog! Early arrivals skimmed the top of the fog leaving a trail behind like the wake of a ship in water. There were frantic voices on the RT; "Ten minutes petrol left!" "I can only fly for a quarter of an hour." It seemed as if a successful operation was going to end in a fiasco; that 420 aircrew would have to bale out, and that 60 Lancasters would be directed out to sea to crash in the Mediterranean when petrol ran out. Fortunately there was a man of considerable initiative on the ground. He was an American flying control officer who stationed himself at the end of the runway in his jeep, fired Verey cartridges up through the mist, and, long before the days of Ground Controlled Approach, talked us in. I shall always remember the expression he used. "The first man to make home base wins!" It was unorthodox, but it was effective; all the aircraft landed safely, about half at Maison Blanche, our intended destination, and the remainder at a neighbouring airfield, Blida. In one of the Lancasters, by coincidence an aircraft from 619 Squadron, which had been formed at Woodhall Spa when we left that station for Bourn, was a dead Bomb-aimer who had been killed when hit by flak over the target.
For a couple of days we lazed; we drank too much of the rather coarse Algerian wine; we had too much sun; we gorged ourselves on fruit which was now very scarce in England; we bathed in the Mediterranean. Once incident while we were there stands out in my mind; we had been issued with basic khaki drill uniform, and none of us had badges of rank except those few who had seen previous service overseas. We ate in an American Mess where one GI was unwise enough to question whether Johnny Sauvage was an officer; Johnny was a very senior Flight Lieutenant at the time, but he was one of those people who nearly always look scruffy because he needed a second shave by about two o'clock in the afternoon; his language at this challenge was picturesque in the extreme, and it obviously served to convince the GI that he really was a 'limey' officer.
Eight of the aircraft which had landed had been too badly damaged on the outward operation to take part in the return one; quite the worst of these was one of the Pathfinder aircraft, Rodley's, not because of action over the target, but because a TI had hung up in the bomb-bay of his aircraft; these exploded barometrically, so when he lost height over the Mediterranean, it went off and his Lancaster became filled with smoke and flames; fortunately he realised what had happened, and, opening the bomb doors, he pulled the jettison lever, the TI fell away, and he reached Algiers, but in no fit state to fly again till a good deal of work had been done on his Lancaster. Johnny's aircraft was also badly damaged, so there were only two Pathfinders on the return operation. All those who did operate against Spezia, for that was the homebound target, had a great deal of difficulty getting off the ground so heavily laden with petrol and bombs in the heat of a tropical evening.
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The homeward attack was something of an anti-climax after Friedrichshaven, and dropping our flares and bombs fairly hastily, we sped back across France. As we got back to Scampton, the sun was rising once more. The WAAF in flying control called us "Clear to land, J-Johnnie" and for once ignoring RT discipline, "Good show, J-Johnnie."
We were debriefed; I recall Jimmy telling the intelligence officer that we 'dove' out of the searchlights; it was years before I found out that 'dove' was legitimate New World past tense of 'to dive.' In the evening we flew back to Bourn. There was a reception committee waiting for us including the AOC, Bennett, and other senior officers. Bennett was exceedingly angry; he felt that four Pathfinders had been used so that 5 Group would have an excuse, someone else to blame, if the raid were not successful. Relations between Bennett and Cochrane, the AOC of 5 Group, were notoriously bad; Bennett commented at that debriefing that he would have had 20 Pathfinders illuminating and marking the target to ensure that the task was done properly. It was Bennett who had interviewed me for my commission earlier in the year; he didn't waste any time with 'social' questions which some of my friends had suffered from other AOCs, but launched straight away into fairly probing questions about navigation, and why I wanted to become an officer; presumably I was able to satisfy him on both counts.
The attack on Friedrichshaven had been our 29th. operation, and Spezia our 30th., so we got back to Bourn confidently expecting to go on three weeks leave; the pressure was on, however, and we were informed that we would have to do two more trips before we could be released. We went twice to Cologne before drawing our railway warrants and ration cards and setting off. At that time thirty operations constituted a first tour; one was then entitled to a 'rest' of at least six months before going back for a second tour, though some never did; in Main Force the second tour was twenty operations, but arrangements differed a little in Pathfinder Force. Having got a successful and experienced crew together, Pathfinder Force liked to keep them together for their second tour, so the crew went straight on without a break. In order to compensate for this, the second tour was reduced to 15 operations, and there was a three-week leave period in between instead of the usual two-week end-of-tour leave.
This last operation of our first tour is described in detail in 'Pathfinders at War' by Chaz Bowyer, under the title of 'Night of No Return,' written by Doug Jones, one of the four pilots to take part. There is also quite a long article about it in 'The Marker', the Pathfinder Association magazine, of summer 1991, by Rodley and a shorter one adding to Rod's article by myself in 'The Marker' of winter 1992. I read quite recently (spring 2002) Constance Babbington Smith's 'Evidence in Camera' and was surprised to find how quickly the attack had been organised; Churchill had visited RAF Medmenham, the Photographic Interpretation Unit, on June 14th., 1943, and been shown the pictures of the radar devices in preparation at Friedrichshaven; it was only six days later that the raid took place.
After those two operations against Cologne, I didn't go there again for many years, not, in fact, till the autumn of 1998, when my wife and I went down the Rhine on a river cruise starting there. We had not been on the cruise vessel more than
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ten minutes before there was a fire drill; when it concluded, I said to the Cruise Director, "This is a bit ironic, because the last time I was at Cologne, I was trying to start as many fires as possible!"
Most of our crew had decided to stay together and go on to complete 45 operations; by now we all had great faith in one another, and we all realised that in Jimmy Munro we had an exceptional pilot and captain; Bill Tracey had been absolutely right. (He, Bill, incidentally, had transferred to the US Army Air Corps fairly soon after we had moved to Bourn, and moved on after his thirty operations, so that now, after a long spell together, my friend George, his navigator, moved to a different station.) Two of the crew decided not to stay on: 'Snowy' Nevard, the wireless operator, and Harry Townsley, the engineer. In their place, we picked up two very experienced aircrew; Flight Sergeant Underwood as W/Op., and 'Ginger' Swetman, DFC, DFM, as Engineer. The latter, who eventually became squadron engineering leader, had quite remarkable night vision; he was frequently able to tell intelligence officers at debriefing just where our bombs and TIs had fallen, and time and time again this was confirmed by the photograph taken as we dropped our bombs.
When we got back to Bourn after our three weeks leave, we found the squadron agog with a new defensive strategy, 'Window,' the dropping of metallic strips to confuse the enemy radar. 'Window' was first used against Hamburg on the night of July 24/25 1943 and crews who had operated that night told us that the German searchlights and guns were all over the place, and there was great confusion between the night-fighters and their controllers. The loss rate that night was reduced to 1.5%, only 12 aircraft out of a force of over 700. We then operated against Hamburg three times in a week. On the 27th. the lost rate was just over 2%, 18 missing from a force of nearly 800; Window was still being very effective. This particular raid was the night of the great fire-storm; an enormous number of incendiaries was dropped and a great number of the inhabitants of Hamburg perished in the ensuing conflagration. In the same week we also did a trip to the Ruhr, to Remscheid, so we were operating at quite intense pressure at that time. The last of 'The Battle of Hamburg' raids was on the night of August 2nd. Although all 97 Squadron's aircraft returned, the Command lost 30 aircraft that night - over 4 per. cent. - and we began to wonder if Window was already losing its effect, but probably that night's losses were as much to do with weather as the German defences; the icing at 20,000 feet was more severe than we had ever known, and the wind was over 100 knots, so probably quite a lot of the casualties were victims of the weather.
I pause here from my chronological narrative to insert several anecdotes from this period. One day, we were due to take J-Johnnie on a night-flying test; these normally took place in the morning so that the ground crew could fix anything that needed fixing during the afternoon. For some reason we were not able to fly in the morning - possibly our ground-crew were busy on something fairly major on the aircraft. Whatever the reason, we went for lunch, and arrived to do our air-test early in the afternoon; there was no transport about to take us out to dispersal, so we trooped into the Flight Commander's office to explain. The Wingco said at once, "My van's outside; I shan't be needing it for an hour or two. Take that. "Jimmy at once responded that he couldn't drive. W/C Alabaster turned to me and commented, "It
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makes you realise how long the war's been on, doesn't it? Here's this chap who's done nearly forty trips in a Lancaster, and can't drive a car!"
The next story is a sad one. Bennett used to insist that his air staff officers at PFF HQ kept up to date by themselves going on operations from time to time. Two turned up one evening and, to my great surprise, both went off with the same crew, an Australian fairly new to the Squadron. I had flown a 'bullseye' with him one night when his own navigator was sick, and, after months flying with Jimmy, wasn't very impressed, so that I wouldn't have wanted to operate with him myself. Sadly both these officers, very experienced officers indeed, were lost with him.
Another story concerns a young night fighter pilot from a Beaufighter Squadron in the Home Counties, who came to spend a week's leave with us and flew on three operations. I was quite amazed that anyone's idea of a week's leave should be to spend it operating with a heavy bomber squadron. [italics] Chac'un a son gout! [/italics] He successfully completed his week, and Jimmy suggested that we would take him back to his base at Twinwood Farm; the main runway at this night-fighter station was considerably shorter than that normally used by a Lancaster, and although we landed without too much difficulty, taking off on an 800 yard runway, skimming over the trees at the end of the runway, was quite exciting. I believe Jimmy got a bit of a rocket when we got back to Bourn, but there isn't really much you can do to a chap who has done 40 operations except perhaps slap his wrists fairly mildly.
By now, we were, of course a very experienced crew; when new crews joined the Squadron, their captains were usually sent out with just such a crew before they operated themselves. One night we took a newly arrived South African with us, almost certainly, I think to Hamburg. We were making our way over northern Germany, more or less parallel with the coast and were somewhere near Bremen. "Now watch this," said Jimmy and held the plane absolutely straight and level for 30-45 seconds. Then he veered off to the left, and almost immediately three rounds of flak burst on our right, just where we would have been if he had continued straight and level.
Another visitor at about this time was Jimmy's father; he had been in the Canadian army in WWI, and enlisted again as soon as WWII was declared. Now he was back in England again as Private Munro. By now Jimmy was commissioned, and although Private Munro wasn't allowed to use the Officers' Mess, the Adjutant stretched a point, and accommodated him in the Sergeants' Mess, where he was very well looked after by the NCOs in our crew. He flew with us on an air-test on a very stormy day. While we were out over the North Sea there was a terrific bang, just like a burst of flak directly below the aircraft. We had been struck by lightning! We were lucky; flicking over the pages of Chorley's 'Bomber Command Losses' recently, I noticed that a Halifax which had been struck by lightning broke up in the air, and all the crew were killed. Our only damage was to our main P4 compass; it was never the same again. Although boffins arrived from Farnborough to degauss the aircraft, it could never be relied upon, but fortunately the Distant Reading Compass was still perfectly serviceable, and we relied on that from then on.
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We usually went into Cambridge when we were 'stood down' or not flying. (I can recall going into Bourn village only once to go to the Post Office.) The great attraction for me was the Cambridge Arts Theatre, and I used to persuade all the crew to go along quite frequently; they were all quite happy to humour me if a Coward, a Rattigan, a Priestley or an Emlyn Williams was on offer, but they all declined when I suggested a visit to the ballet! We all did enjoy very much indeed Terrence Ratigan's 'Flarepath'; it was, I believe, its first production, and starred Richard Attenborough, who was on an ITW course in Cambridge, but was held back on his course in order to play the leading part. We also spent quite a lot of time on the Cam, not in a punt, but in a canoe, for Jimmy, having grown up alongside the Ottawa river, handled a canoe just as expertly as he did a Lancaster.
After what Middlebrook calls 'The Battle of Hamburg' there was a quieter spell. We did two trips to Milan, and between them one to Mannheim. In the first of the Milan raids on August 7th., only 2 planes were lost out of 200 taking part, and on August 12th. only 3 out of 500, and only one of those a Lancaster. I never failed to be surprised at the reactions of some crew members when we were briefed to go on the eight-hour flight over the Alps. They used to complain about these long trips saying "Why can't we just go to the Ruhr?" Yet they must have known that casualties would be ten or even twenty times as many on a visit to Happy Valley! Moreover there was the joy of flying over the Alps (A very different experience from flying 15,000 or more feet above the mountains in the well-lit cabin of a modern jet), and long flights posed navigational challenges which I always enjoyed.
By now it was the middle of August, and nights were getting longer. The increasing hours of darkness was obviously going to give the C-in-C the opportunity to attack the target he really wanted: Berlin. We thought one morning that the day had come. We always had a look at the Order of Battle when it was published in the morning, not to find which aircraft we were flying in - we knew that - or to find the crew - we knew that too - but to have a look at the information tucked away at the bottom of the sheet; the bomb load and petrol load. These two figures gave a pretty good idea of the vicinity of the target. A small petrol-load and a large bomb-load almost inevitably meant the Ruhr. Conversely a heavy load of petrol and a small load of bombs probably meant much further afield; Italy or southern or eastern Germany. A moderate load of each would mean Hamburg, Berlin or thereabouts. On August 17th. we were scheduled for operations. When we looked at the Order of Battle we were horrified; the petrol and bomb loads appeared just right for Berlin, and yet it was a night of full moon; it would be a massacre - a massacre of the aircraft of Bomber Command by the increasingly skilful Luftwaffe night-fighter crews. There was a general lowering of morale but there was nothing we could do about it so we got on with our air-test, and did some bombing practice as well. "Press on regardless," as we said in those days!
We turned up for afternoon briefing, still feeling rather anxious, and found that although the red tape pinned across the map of Europe on the end wall of the briefing-room stretched out across the North Sea, it stopped short of Berlin. Not Lubeck. Not Rostock. Where? Eventually the target was revealed as Peenemunde, a place none of us had ever head of. We sat back and waited for more information.
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[Extract from Author's log book, captioned "August 1943: a busy fortnight in Pathfinder Force."]
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There is no need to write much by way of introduction about the Peenemunde raid. After the Dams operation, it is probably the best documented Bomber Command operation of the whole war. It merits a complete volume to itself by Martin Middlebrook; another by John Searby who was Master of Ceremonies; there are accounts of it and background information in almost any book referring to Bomber Command's activities, notably in R.V.Jones's 'Most Secret War,' in Max Hastings's 'Bomber Command', in Denis Richards's 'The Hardest Victory' and elsewhere. Briefly, Peenemunde was the research station and factory on the coast of the Baltic where the V2 rocket was being developed. It was, of course, a closely guarded secret. Although British intelligence had their first intimations of rockets as early as November 1939, they regarded this as a hoax to distract them from more immediate concerns, until more information came through a Danish engineer in December 1942, and even more when two captured German Generals were 'bugged' in March 1943, and were overheard discussing rocket attacks. Now there was a full alert. The Chiefs of Staff and the War Cabinet were informed and a decision was made to appoint Duncan Sandys to gather together all possible information. He worked very quickly and used photographic reconnaissance to amplify information which was also now coming in through the Resistance. His report to the War Cabinet was made on June 29th., and a decision was made to attach Peenemunde. At first it was thought that Mosquitoes could carry out the attack, but it was realised they couldn't carry the weight of bombs necessary. It would be a job for the heavies, so it was decided to wait until nights were long enough for a force of heavy bombers to get there and back in darkness. Now, in mid-August, that time had come.
Briefing took its usual form. There were introductory remarks and the target finally identified by a senior officer. The Met. Officer briefed us on the weather; conditions should be perfect. The Intelligence Officer told us what was known about defences. The Signals Officer briefed us about W/T procedures and, as always, emphasised the need for radio silence till the attack began. The plan of attack was explained; the operation would be in three phases. (We were to fly in the first.) This first wave was to be against the living quarters of the scientists and technicians; the second against the experimental station, and the last against the factory workshops. A number of special features were also explained; there was to be a Master of Ceremonies, the first time such a technique had been employed on a major operation of about 600 aircraft although we had an MC on Friedrichshaven with a much smaller force; there was to be a spoof raid on Berlin by a group of Mosquitoes who would drop 'window' and TIs to simulate an impending large-scale raid to attract the German fighters to Berlin. No mention whatsoever was made of rockets; we were told that we would be attacking an experimental radar station, a very important one, but nevertheless, radar was something we knew about. It was only later that we learned about rockets; it was thought that it would be disastrous for British morale if it were known that the Germans were developing rockets, so even the crews were not informed. Finally, we were told, and this was the only occasion I heard such a comment, that if the raid were not successful, it would have to be repeated night after night, irrespective of casualties, till the task was complete. Watches were synchronised. A final word from the senior officer 'Have a good trip chaps. Wish I were coming with you.' In fact, a very senior officer was with us that night; Group Captain Boyce, Senior Air Staff Officer at Group HQ, turned up and slipped quietly aboard Rodley's aircraft to witness the attack for himself.
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We went off to the Mess to have our operational meal, and, of course, made our usual funereal jokes. "Can I have your egg if you're not back tomorrow morning?" I suppose it sounds in very bad taste now, but it was our normal comment to one another; it was really wishing our friends a safe passage. Then I would go to clean my teeth, which by then had become a ritual, and easy enough to undertake because my quarters were between the Mess and the airfield; this had started because I thought that if I were shot down and taken prisoner it might be a long time before I could clean my teeth again! It would have been perfectly simple to carry a toothbrush with me; crew members carried all sorts of things with them. Another ritual was always to wear the silk scarf my Mother had given me when I started flying; I would have been very worried to have set off on operations without it.
Meanwhile the armourers had been busy at our aircraft, loading it with a 'cookie,' a four thousand pounder, five 500 pounders, and, most importantly, seven target indicators with which we hoped to mark the living quarters of the most important people at Peenemunde; the petrol bowsers had visited each dispersal site; the ground crew had done their final checks. We went to our lockers in the crew room for our flying kit, and then to the parachute section to draw parachutes, escape kits, rations, and then awaited transport to dispersal. Arriving there, we chatted to the ground crew; the smokers amongst us had a final cigarette; we had a ritual pee over the rear wheel of J-Johnnie.
We eventually clambered aboard and taxied to the end of the runway, ran up the engines to check magnetos, waited for a 'green' from the controller, and we were off; it was 20.50 DBST, so it was still light. As usual, there was a little knot of watchers standing at the end of the runway to wave us off. In 'Bomber Command' Max Hastings says that although this happened when the Squadron returned to Coningsby in 1944, there was never a group on the end of the runway at Bourn: not true. I even stood there myself on one or two occasions when I wasn't flying. The point probably was that there was never a big crowd, because the aircraft normally started their take-off run from the eastern end of the main runway, and all the domestic sites were at the western end, so that unless one had transport of some kind - I had a service bicycle at Bourn - it was a very long way to get there.
We flew out over East Anglia in daylight, and, as usual when we were heading east, crossed the coast at Southwold; darkness soon fell as we flew out over the North Sea. It was a beautiful night. The weather was, as forecast, perfect. The sea was calm. There wasn't a cloud in the sky, so as the full moon rose it was shining on the sea in front of us. The occasion was enhanced by the knowledge that we weren't, as we feared we might have been, on our way to the 'Big City.'
It took about an hour and ten minutes to cross the North Sea and reach the Danish coast. We made sure that we kept fairly well north of Flensburg, a spot to avoid when crossing the Schleswig-Holstein peninsula. The flak gunners at Flensburg were both trigger-happy and accurate, and whenever we went that way, there always seemed to be some unfortunate character whose navigator had not kept him clear of that city. We crossed Denmark in less than fifteen minutes and turned south east over the multitude of islands in the Baltic, which made navigation very easy. I gave Jimmy
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[Two photographs, captioned: [centred] "Over Hamburg, 29 July, and Berlin, 23 August, 1943, from J-Johnnie. Notice Jimmy's deservedly rapid promotion." [/centred]]
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and Sus the Estimated Time of Arrival, and just as that time was coming up, there was a shout from the bomb-aimer that there was a smoke screen ahead of us and he couldn't see very much at all. I came from behind my curtain, and he was quite right! I could see very little, but this was from a fairly oblique angle; there appeared to be 100% cover of the target, but as we got nearer and were looking down through the smoke-screen more vertically, it became obvious that cover was by no means complete, and that one could see quite a lot down through the lines of smoke. Defences were very meagre; a few searchlights straggled round the sky; we had no problem dropping our bombs and TIs on time. The attack seemed to have started well. We watch for a few moments and then turned away from the target just south of the inward route of those still approaching. There was someone in trouble of Flensburg, serious trouble. He was coned and blew up as we watched horrified, the only aircraft we saw shot down that night, most unusual. We flew back across the North Sea thinking that losses would be negligible. Our return to Bourn was uneventful; 97 Squadron had sent out 18 aircraft; one returned early with engine trouble; the other 17 all landed safely. Our flight had lasted 6 hours 50 minutes.
We had a quick word with the ground crew, then transport arrived to take us back to the flight offices. First we went to the parachute store, then to the crew room to deposit our harnesses and other flying kit, and so to the ops. room for debriefing. As usual there was a senior officer waiting to have a word with us as we went in and took a mug of coffee from a WAAF (with rum in it for those who wanted it, which always included the half-frozen gunners, of course), then on to an intelligence officer waiting to debrief us. We sat around a table with him, and told him about the raid, the defences, any aircraft we had seen shot down, the weather; it didn't take long before we were on our way back to our messes for the traditional post-operational meal of eggs and bacon and trimmings. And so to bed.
The next morning, as on every morning after operations, I was about early. Most of the crew, most of the squadron, would sleep in till lunchtime after flying at night, but probably I was horrified at the thought of missing a meal, so I was always up. I wouldn't pretend I was first in the mess for breakfast, but I would be up by about eight, have a shower, and reach the mess just before breakfast ended at nine. After breakfast, I would catch up with my correspondence, or do the Telegraph crossword, and read the paper or a novel. On this particular occasion, however, realising that the previous night's operation had been rather a special one, and with the threat made at the end of briefing still hanging over us, I decided to walk up to the intelligence library to have a look at the photographs which had, no doubt, been developed. The first thing I found was that we had lost 40 aircraft, 6.7% of the force. I was amazed; the only aircraft we saw downed was the one over Flensburg; usually we saw at least half a dozen over German targets. Apparently the German fighters circled Berlin as they were intended to, but when their controllers realised where the target really was, they redirected the fighters to the Baltic coast, and they arrived in time to create havoc among the later waves of the attack. The second wave suffered losses of about 14.5%, while the third, the Lancasters of 5 Group, lost almost 20%, an incredible one aircraft in every five. However, the raid had been deemed a success, so we should not have to repeat it, much to our relief. The attack is said to have delayed the V2 by about three months. The first V2 hit London on September 8th., and three months before that, almost to the day, the invasion was just getting under way, so we probably did
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something worthwhile. Reports tell of several top scientists and technicians who were killed; production was dispersed and decreased; the German general in charge of fighters committed suicide after failing to defend Peenemunde.
This operation was our 40th. We had five more to do. We did air-tests on August 19th. and 22nd., but didn't operate again till the 23rd. The full moon had passed, and now it really was Berlin. We lost 56 aircraft, Bomber Command's biggest loss in a single operation to date, 7.9% of the force despatched. One of the aircraft we lost that night was the Australian with two Staff Officers on board. Four nights later, we went to Nuremberg; the nights really were getting longer now, to go that far under cover of darkness; there was much evidence of aerial combat, but fortunately the fighters left us alone. On the 29th. we flew over to Oakington, our parent station, to operate from there while our runways at Bourn were under repair, and on the night of 30/31 August went back to the Ruhr, to Munchen-Gladbach, a flight of only 3hrs. 30 minutes. Take-off that night was after midnight, and by 20.20 the same evening we were back in the air on our way to Berlin. Losses were again high; 47 aircraft, 7.6%, but much higher among the Stirlings which lost 17 out of 106 sent, 16.0%. We lost one of our Flight Commanders, Wing Commander Burns, C.O. of A flight, with his much decorated crew. Fortunately he and a number of others of his crew escaped the aircraft and were taken prisoner. He had been Master Bomber over Berlin in the raid a week before.
One evening while we were waiting for take-off to Berlin at our dispersal point, which was right on the A45, the main road to Cambridge, a coach pulled up; it was carrying an ENSA party, who had performed at Bourn that evening, back to Cambridge. They saw that we were wearing Mae Wests and harnesses and carrying parachutes, so they had asked the driver to stop. They waved and shouted 'Good luck!' to us, and no doubt read all about the attack in the papers the next morning, so they were able to tell their friends that they had seen a crew just off on a big raid.
On another of our long flights into Germany, almost certainly to Berlin, I think, we were told at briefing that we would be taking a lengthy circuitous route across Germany, one of the strategies used to confuse the defences, and that this route would take us over a small town where a large number of seriously rich Germans were hibernating for the duration of the war. We might, if we wished, drop one of our smaller bombs there "to remind them that there was a war on." It was up to us! We crossed the Rhine well south of the Ruhr, and continued eastwards passing south of Kassel; as we were nearing the town, I informed Jimmy and we held a brief democratic crew conference. In the end we decided to take our full load of bombs and T.I.s to the main target; the balance of opinion was that we should drop as much as possible on "the Big City." However, it was my opinion that the crew probably thought that with me as navigator, they couldn't be sure that they were anywhere near the little town, but that even I could hardly miss the enormous sprawling city that was Berlin.
We were now in September with one trip left to complete our second tour. We did night-flying tests on two occasions, but each time operations were cancelled through bad weather. On the first of these occasions, the corporal-fitter in charge of J-Johnny, a young married man, was due to go on leave the next
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morning, but when operations were 'scrubbed' he wouldn't go; the same happened the next night; he was determined to see us safely through our tour. This was a considerable sacrifice, for ground crew got very little leave, and worked outside at dispersal sites, not in a warm hangar, in sometimes quite atrocious conditions; he really deserved an award for devotion to duty. I was glad that Jimmy saw the Flight Commander the next morning before we all set off on leave, explained what had happened, and the Wingco extended the corporal's leave, which officially had already started, by a 48-hour pass, a most unusual concession for those days.
We had expected a 'cushy' operation to Italy for that final operation; the petrol/bomb load on the Order of Battle seemed right for a long trip, and the invasion of Italy had begun that very morning, September 3rd., the fourth anniversary of the outbreak of war. We were soon disillusioned when we got to briefing; once more the red tape stretched across Europe to Berlin, but by a particularly long circuitous route, which accounted for the bomb and petrol loads. We went through the usual pre-operation routines, but when Jimmy was running up the engines on the end of the runway, the surge of power made all my radar unserviceable; not, I thought, a good omen for our last operation. However, our luck was in once again, for even at 20,000 feet the winds were quite light and variable that night, so we had no real navigational problems. We got a pin-point on the English coast, another on the Dutch, and the rear gunner was able to give me an occasional drift, so, even by that circuitous route, we got to the target successfully. The Halifaxes and Stirlings did not participate in this operation, as they had recently suffered severe losses; 316 Lancasters passed through the target in 20 minutes hoping to overwhelm the German defences of their capital. Evenso, [sic] 22 were lost, nearly 7% of the force. A year earlier, Bomber Command could hardly have sent 100 Lancasters, even on a 'maximum effort.'
We were routed over the south western corner of Sweden for the return flight. Martin Middlebrook's book on the Berlin raids refers to the correspondence between the Swedish ambassador and Anthony Eden, Foreign Secretary during the war; in his reply to the Ambassador's protest abut the 'repeated violations of Swedish territory,' Eden wrote 'On returning from their target, a number of aircraft took a northerly course and, despite the instructions which, as Your Excellency knows, have been issued to British air crews to avoid flying over Swedish territory, crossed the South West corner of Sweden before reaching the Kattegat.' Sheer hypocritical nonsense, of course; our briefing lay down the route for the return journey.
As we crossed the corner of Sweden we put the nose down and, for the last time, sped home. In spite of having no radar, we were easily first home that night. As we crossed the coast, we broke discipline by firing off the colours of the day from the verey pistol. When we got back to the parachute section, I pulled the ripcord of my parachute, which I wouldn't normally have done, of course, and it spilled over the counter. The WAAF parachute packer and I had a laugh about it, when I said that I was satisfied that it would have been all right if I had had to use it in earnest.
The following day we set off on a fortnight's leave. The possibility of surviving the war, although by no means certain, seemed considerably nearer.
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Sadly, Jimmy, Ron Bennett, and 'Weasel' did not survive; they, with our new wireless operator, Flight Sergeant 'Gremlin' Underwood, Jimmy Silk, from Doug Jones's crew, who replaced me, Peter Burbridge, from Johnny Sauvages's crew who replaced 'Sus', and a new engineer, were shot down over Berlin on the night of November 22nd./23rd. 1943, probably by a German fighter. They have no known grave. It was Jimmy's 57th. operation.
[centred] * * * [/centred]
What must have been the next J-Johnnie was not destined to last very long; it was shot down and all its crew killed on the night of 30/31 January 1944 returning from Berlin. I was, by then, many miles from Bourn, and was not to know about this for many years. However, in 1999, BBC Leeds made a programme about the recovery of the remains of the aircraft by Dutch engineers excavating at Zwanenburg. The programme did seem to include a number of anomalies, and I had a brief correspondence with the Research Assistant working on the programme, but she was unable to resolve my enquiries, and pointed out, quite correctly, that the programme was really about the excavation, not the minutiae of 97 Squadron's history. I had not known before the programme was shown that it was to be about OF (97 Squadron's identification letters) - J-Johnnie, only that it was to be about a Lancaster; it therefore gave me quite a [italics] frisson [/italics] to be watching a programme about OF-J, an aircraft with the identical identification to the one which I had myself been navigating only a few months before.
[centred] * * * [/centred]
I left 97 Squadron at Bourn on September 23rd. 1943, posted to No.26 OTU at Wing, just outside of Leighton Buzzard, as a navigation instructor. I hadn't been there many weeks when a notice appeared in Daily Routine Orders seeking a radar navigation instructor overseas. With the Middle East and North Africa now in allied hands, it was pretty obviously going to be Italy. I hadn't really settled to life as an instructor after life on an operational squadron; moreover the post was 'advertised' as a Flight Lieutenant vacancy, and since I hadn't been commissioned all that long, I asked the Adjutant to put my name forward. It wasn't long before I heard that I had been accepted, and went off on embarkation leave. On my return the unit was good enough to divert a cross-country to drop me off at Squire's Gate, the nearest airfield to Blackpool, where the embarkation unit was based. Within days I was on a ship bound for overseas from Liverpool, but conditions were rather different this time as I was travelling as an officer, and in any case the vessel was hardly a traditional troopship. We sailed well out into the Atlantic to keep clear of the aircraft attacking convoys from airfields in western France, then turned east to pass through the Straits of Gibraltar, where the fog was so dense that although the Straits are very narrow,
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nine miles at its narrowest, we saw no signs of the Rock whatsoever, and a couple of days later, docked in Algiers.
After a day or two in a transit camp there, I was flown to Tunis, Headquarters of Mediterranean Air Command, to which I was attached for the time being. The Air Officer Commanding was Air Marshall Tedder; he would come into the Mess occasionally, and was a delightful man; in fact, I never met any really senior officers who were not very pleasant people indeed. The more objectionable men were those pre-war regular officers, who had probably never operated during the war and got stuck at about Group Captain or Air Commodore level, were never going to get any further, and many of whom were far less attractive personalities than people like Tedder, who really did get to the top.
I was looked after by a Wing Commander and a Squadron Leader. It was now mid-December, and they took a light aircraft to Bone one day to visit the Market. They took me along with them, since I was under their wing, and because they had found out that my French was fairly reasonable. They had hoped to find some turkeys for the mess for Christmas, but were unlucky; all we did get was a sack of carrots, but probably it was appetising for people who had lived on service rations for some time to have some fresh vegetables. While there I did manage to visit the site of Carthage, and to have a swim in the Mediterranean on Christmas Day; it really was fairly chilly, but I wanted to say I had swum on Christmas Day!
A few days after Christmas, I set off further east to El Adem, a large desert airfield just outside Tobruk. I had learnt while I was at Tunis that the bomber squadrons, mainly Wellingtons, but one Halifax, No. 462, which had come up through the desert, and had spent much of the war raiding places like Benghazi and Tobruk, were shortly to move across to Italy, and that one of the squadrons, the Halifaxes, was going to become a target marking force, doing the same sort of job that I had been doing in Pathfinder Force. I spent initially only a few days with them before being required to visit HQ Middle East Air Force at Cairo, the HQ which, through 205 Group, had much more direct control over this bomber force than the HQ at Tunis. There were aircraft continuously going through El Adem on their way to the Far East, so a lift was once again arranged for me in a Wellington. Since the Wellington had its own crew I stood in the astrodome throughout the flight; I recall how impressed I was as we approached the Nile Delta at the sharp demarcation between the sands of the desert, and the green of the delta, not a gradual change at all, but quite sudden. The sergeant-pilot levelled out at about thirty or even thirty-five feet above the runway at Cairo West, then dropped the aircraft in with a terrific bang. Since I had been in the astrodome, not the warmest place in the aircraft, I was wearing a flying jacket; as I left the Wellington a Wing Commander approached me outside flying control and asked if I were the pilot of the aircraft which had just landed; since I was wearing my flying jacket, he could not, of course, see what sort of a brevet I was wearing. I very hastily disclaimed such responsibility and commented that I could quite understand why he was asking. He grinned and went off to find the real pilot.
I spent several days at HQ Middle East seeing a succession of fairly senior officers, most of whom had been in the Middle East for some time, and were not in close touch with recent developments in Bomber Command. One of them also
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introduced me to the delights of Groppi's, the famous Egyptian tea rooms, where one could gorge oneself on the sort of cakes that hadn't been seen in England for years.
Soon I was back at El Adem where 462 Squadron were still carrying out an occasional night raid on German harbour installations in Crete, but everyone was really just waiting for the move to Italy. Towards the end of February, all the ground crew moved back to the Delta to be ferried across to Italy to prepare an airfield near Foggia for the arrival of the Halifaxes. We kept our tents for the moment, but the khamsin was beginning to blow, and there was sand in everything. Occasionally a very old, quite enormous - and very dirty - Arab riding a donkey far too small for him would appear carrying a bucket of tiny eggs, which he would barter for a mug of sugar. The last night we were there, the tents were taken down and stowed aboard the aircraft for an early departure; we slept under the wings of the Halifaxes. I flew with the Squadron CO as navigator, since he had no regular crew of his own. The Engineering Officer (ground) flew as his flight engineer, so we had rather a makeshift crew. However, we reached Celone, our designated airfield, without problems. Just before we left the desert, I went into Tobruk and bought a pair of gumboots at the Offices' Shop; you were allowed to buy gumboots only if you were to be posted to Italy; it didn't seem as if we were going to have very wonderful weather in Italy!
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During the next few weeks, I spent most of my time with the squadron Navigation Officer and his team, some airborne on long cross-countries, talking to them about the techniques we had used in Pathfinder Force and the equipment we used, 'which in their case they had not got.' An entry in my log-book for May 2nd. 1944, shows the first air test of the Italian Gee chain; it was, of course, going to be an enormous advance for crews which had come up through the desert with no such aids to have Gee available, but they would certainly need it over the coming months for weather over Europe was very different from weather along the North African coastline.
At about this time, I was posted from 462 Squadron to HQ 205 Group as Group Navigation Officer (Radar) to distinguish me from the Group Navigation Officer; the work involved quite a lot of visits to HQ 15th. Air Force, which was based at Bari, and under whose aegis 205 Group operated. 462, now for some reason rechristened 614 Squadron, started operating in their new role. Their first attempt was something of a fiasco, not through any fault of theirs, but because the chosen target was in Sofia, and the mountains all round prevented their new radar devices from operating effectively; this was a pity, because it took them some time to win back their credibility with the supporting bomber squadrons.
One morning in June, news broke of the invasion of Normandy; the unit sick quarters had a radio, and I stood outside most of that morning (sick quarters being in a tent) and listened to the commentators, rather wishing that I had a hand in these great events taking place the other side of Europe.
Another event at about this time was the eruption of Vesuvius; a stream of smoke spread east from the crater over Italy right across the plain around Foggia, where all the main airfields were. We had to send out a navigation warning to all
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[Photograph of author outside a tent, captioned: "In front of my tent at El Adem, near Tobruk, February, 1944."]
[Photograph of author, captioned: "At Celone, near Foggia, Italy, April, 1944."]
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squadrons not to fly into the smoke from the volcano since it would cause the perspex in the cockpits of their aircraft to become opaque.
It wasn't long before I got the urge to go along with 614 from time to time. I knew only too well that Bennett had insisted on his Air Staff Officers operating in order to keep them in touch with current techniques, and now that I was a Staff Officer myself, albeit a very junior one, I thought I ought to do the same; moreover I was well aware of Hotspur's castigation of Staff Officers in Henry IV, and Siegfried Sassoon's poem about 'scarlet majors at the base,' so I decided I would join the squadron if there were appropriate opportunities. By 'appropriate opportunities' I mean providing I could go as a crew member; I knew only too well how much some crews hated having an 'extra bod.' on board as a supernumerary. Moreover, having completed forty-five operations, I thought it would be nice to make the round figure of fifty.
There was a meeting of the Air Staff every morning, which I attended. It was also attended by an army officer, a Guard, attached to the Group HQ, who was responsible for liaison with the Resistance, both in France and in Yugoslavia. He arrived one morning to inform us that the French resistance intended to attack an airfield in the Rhone Valley in the near future; they would be doing this at night, and would welcome a diversion by bomber aircraft making an attack on the middle of the airfield to make the Germans keep their heads down while they went about their business around the perimeter. This sounded a very interesting trip. I contacted 614 squadron and found there was one crew without a navigator, by coincidence, the same crew with whom I had undertaken the initial test of the Italian Gee chain. They were quite happy to accept my suggestion that I should join them for this operation as navigator. I got to Celone in ample time to renew acquaintance with Flt. Lt. Langton and his crew, and to be present at briefing, though I had all the information needed already, of course.
The front line at this time ran roughly from Ancona across Italy, just north of Florence. We were not routed to cross the line, but flew north as far as Lake Trasimeno, now, I believe, more commonly known as Lake Perugia; I prefer the former since that was the site of one [of] Hannibal's battles in the Punic Wars. We took off at about twenty to seven and set course for the lake; the date was July 24th., about three weeks before the invasion of southern France on August 15th. We turned west when we reached the Lake, and crossed the coast near Livorno, Leghorn. We crossed the Ligurian Sea, pin-pointed the northern tip of Corsica, and crossed the French coast just behind Marseilles, then north again along the valley of the Rhone as far as Valence. The airfield we were to attack was close to Valence; we were given its name as La Tresorie, but although I've looked it up in several reference books about the resistance since the war, I've never found anything about an airfield of that name. We dropped our flares and one TI from about 10,000 feet and watched while the main force, mainly Wellingtons, bombed the centre of the airfield. There was obviously some activity on the ground, small arms fire and a number of explosions. There seemed to be no defences whatsoever. The attack over, we turned about, and flew back to Foggia by the same route.
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A fortnight later, on August 6th., the Army liaison officer announced at our morning meeting that a message had now been received from the resistance in southern France. They had been well satisfied with the diversion provided, had destroyed 37 German aircraft on the ground, had blown up the ammunition dump, and killed an unspecified number of Germans.
I navigated twice more for 614 Squadron. One operation was a long trip to Hungary, to Székesfehérvár, halfway between Lake Balaton and Budapest, the other to the marshalling yards at Zagreb in northern Yugoslavia; the aim of both these trips was to impede the Germans as they retreated from the Balkans. I did two more in Wellingtons which were now much involved in supply dropping to the partisans. I thought that these would prove interesting; the first was in daylight, high in the mountains near Sarajevo; the partisans, looking like a gang of bandits, waved with great enthusiasm as our parachutes floated down to them. The same evening we dropped from 1,000 feet on to an enormous bonfire in the form of a cross near Trieste.
Life was not all operations and staff work, however; in August I was given the opportunity to undertake a Junior Commander's course at HQ Middle East in Cairo. I flew to Cairo via Malta and Marble Arch - a rather pleasanter flight than my previous trip to Cairo - and spent an interesting four weeks living on a houseboat, where the course also took place. The boat was moored to Gezira Island, and we were able to use the facilities at the club there in our fairly ample leisure time. Before I was allowed to return to Foggia, HQ ME sent me off to give a couple of lectures to navigators at their bomber OTU at Qastina and their Heavy Conversion Unit at Abu Suier on the techniques and equipment used in Pathfinder Force. And so back to Foggia, this time via El Adem, now very much a backwater, and Malta.
Most of the staff visits I undertook from Foggia were to Bari, but on one occasion I visited HQ MATAF (Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Forces) at Sienna. Most of the day I was there was in an office with RAF and USAAC officers, but we did find time to walk round the great square; I thought what a wonderfully attractive place it was, and how I would love to go back there; in fact, it was a great many years before I returned on a day when the weather was appalling and the square was packed almost solid with tourists, so that my wife wasn't nearly as impressed as I had been almost fifty years earlier, when the sun shone, the sky was blue, and there was no one about but a few Allied troops.
I also visited MAAF HQ at the great palace at Caserta, and while there was able to ascertain the whereabouts of my first RAF friend, Ken Romain, who, I knew, was flying with a Spitfire squadron. They were stationed, in fact, quite nearby, so I was able to spend an enjoyable afternoon and evening with these fighter boys. They went off for a sweep over the front line while I was there. In their Ops. Room (a caravan), I noted that Ken had been credited with one half of a "kill." I pulled his leg about this, pointing out that all the time I had been flying over Germany, he had shot down one half of a Luftwaffe aircraft. However, he protested - and I am sure he was right - that Allied air superiority had been so great over North Africa, and now was over Italy, that opportunities for combat were very rare; when they were patrolling the front line, the German aircraft just did not leave the ground.
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By now, my job in the Mediterranean theatre was just about over. The Target Marking Squadron was well able to look after itself. (During the autumn one of the new crews to join them was captained by an Old Tauntonian from Southampton, 'Scotch' Wilson; he was slightly younger than me but was an accomplished games player, so I had known him quite well; he was given a permanent commission, and was a regular member of the RAF cricket XI for several years; when he retired as a Group Captain he became Secretary of Notts CCC. We were planning to do an op. together when I was posted back to UK.) It was early December when I left Foggia. The Group Communications Flight took me across to Naples, and from there I was taken on by the USAAC Transport system. I had a couple of days at Marseille en route and then went on to Paris. Arriving at Orly, I enquired of the American movements sergeant if there was any chance of breaking my journey in Paris for 24 hours; "Sure, sir." I have the impression that the Americans were much more relaxed about such things; I would never have got away with that if I had been travelling with Transport Command. He probably thought I wanted a night out in Paris, and so I did, but not perhaps quite the sort of night he imagined. What I wanted to do was to look up the family I had known before the war, and find out about the friends of whom I had heard nothing since the collapse of France in 1940. I found a phone, and much to my surprise, the civil telephone system was working perfectly satisfactorily. I contacted my friends, spent a very pleasant evening with them, and was able to hear all about my acquaintances in Normandy.
Monsieur Hue, the father of the family, told a delightful story about an incident during the occupation. He had been strap-hanging on the Metro, when a German officer alongside him took out his cigarette case and lighter and was about to light a cigarette; M. Hue took him by the arm and pointed to the notice. "Defense de fumer, Monsieur," he said. The German officer put away his cigarette and lighter. Monsieur Hue turned to me, obviously absolutely delighted. "Petite victoire," he said, "petite victoire!"
When I reached UK I was sent on leave, during which I was able to organise a visit to HQ Pathfinder Force, where I still had some contacts. I spent a most interesting evening in the Ops. Room reacquainting myself with all the latest developments including particularly the use of Mosquitoes as the Light Night Striking Force; I spent a second evening with Wing Commander Burns DSO DFC who had been shot down over Berlin just before I left Bourn and lost a hand when he was blown out of his Lancaster; he had been in hospital the next two nights in Berlin when further big raids took place; not a pleasant experience he had assured me! Eventually he had been repatriated through Switzerland, the normal procedure for badly-injured servicemen, though his injuries did not prevent him doing a worth-while job as an Air Staff Officer at 8 Group Headquarters.
I was just beginning to think the RAF had forgotten all about me when I received a signal to report to a certain Wing Commander at Adastral House. After a few minutes introductory chatter, he asked what I wanted to do now. This surprised me as it wasn't the usual service way of doing things; I must have looked a bit perplexed, for he went on, "What about going to Transport Command?" I certainly had no objections to this, so he sent me off on leave again to await instructions.
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Eventually, sometime in February, I received instructions to report to the Transport Command OTU at Bramcote in the Midlands.
Although the vast majority of air crew arriving for the OTU course were very experienced, Transport Command saw fit to give us a very thorough training, especially in navigation and meteorology; the course in the latter was one of the best I had ever done. One of the advantages of the course was that if one got a certain percentage in the end-of-course examinations, and took an extra paper in civil aviation law one could qualify for a First Class Air Navigator's Licence, which would enable one to fly in civil aviation. We also did quite a lot of cross country flying in Wellingtons, there being a surfeit of them at the time. There were only three of us in a Transport Command crew; pilot, wireless operator and navigator. I crewed up with an ex-Spitfire pilot, and a wireless operator who had, in fact, flown in one of the Wellington Squadrons of 205 Group in the desert.
There was another rather more important piece of "crewing up" while I was at Bramcote, for I met my wife; she was a theatre staff nurse at Nuneaton General Hospital, where she had done her training; we were married not all that long after we first met. Our daughters sometimes tease us about that even now!
At the end of the course, we were posted to a Ferry Unit at Talbenny, which is beyond Haverfordwest at the far south-western corner of Wales. On the way there by train, I had to wait about four hours in Gloucester, where I arrived at about 7 in the evening. I went along to the nearest hotel for a meal. When I went in, the Manager was in reception and asked, "Are you with the team, sir?" I must have looked as perplexed as I felt, for he went on immediately to explain that the first of the Victory Test Matches between teams of servicemen from Australia and England was starting the next day at the Gloucestershire cricket ground, and that both sides were staying at his hotel. The two sides had a room booked for the evening for some social activity, and since I appeared to be the only other Air Force officer in the hotel, they invited me to join them. I had a most jolly evening with them; many of those present are now household names in the cricketing world; the Australians were captained by Warrant Officer Lindsay Hasset; the side included Keith Miller and other notables, while the English team was captained by Flight Sergeant Cyril Washbrook, and since I had always been an avid follower of country cricket, a host of names I had known for years. Many years later I was visiting the Australian Houses of Parliament at Canberra; our guide was very obviously a cricket enthusiast, so I recounted this story to him; he was able to recite the names of all eleven of the Australian players who took part! The party was still in full swing when I left to catch my midnight train to South Wales; it was a memorable evening indeed.
While at Talbenny - we were there for two and a half months - our only ferry delivery was to take an Anson to Algiers; it was going to a minor Arab royal in the Middle East, and was most luxuriously equipped. That, however, even with pre-delivery testing and the return flight took only about ten days, so we were pretty bored most of the time, and I wasn't sorry when my pilot, who was something of a socialite and seemed to have connections at Air Ministry, was able to persuade someone there to send us on a course to convert to Dakotas - DC-3s - with a view to joining one of the Dakota squadrons operating much more regularly. His connection
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[Photograph of a scene at Croydon Airport, captioned: "The control tower at Croydon with a Dakota - DC3 - landing. The building in the background is the airport hotel, which was the Officers' Mess during the war years."]
[Reprint of a photograph captioned: [centred] 'TAKING OFF FOR CAIRO, INDIA, AND AUSTRALIA' [/centred]
[centred] "B.O.A.C. Hythe taking off from Poole Harbour, May, 1946." [/centred]
[centred] "From the Radio Times of June 14th., 1946."[/centred]]
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proved to be a very useful one as we were soon posted to another Transport Command OTU, this one No. 109 at Wymeswold near Loughborough, where we spent a fortnight converting to Dakotas before joining 147 Squadron at Croydon. Our lives were transformed, for not only were we near London, but we had a real job to do. 147 Sqdn. was carrying passengers every day to all the big cities of north western Europe; we would fly to Paris one day, Berlin the next, Brussels, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Oslo, and so on, and the schedules were so arranged that we would night stop from time to time, especially at the more attractive destinations such as Copenhagen.
Copenhagen was also worth visiting for another reason; while we weren't exactly starving in England, there were many items still severely rationed, and many shortages; Denmark, on the other hand, was well looked after by the Germans as part of their 'larder,' but suffered from an almost complete lack of cigarettes. We bartered! The standard rate was 100 cigarettes for 30 dozen eggs; we could also obtain much other farm produce - ham, bacon, cheese, meat. On one occasion I acquired a whole Danish Blue cheese, which had such a pungent odour that the other two members of the crew insisted that it be removed from the flight deck and placed in the passenger compartment! Many Danish shops were far better stocked than those in England, and I was able to buy our first dinner and tea set from a large store in Copenhagen.
The flight to Oslo was also an interesting one, for it was emphasised at briefing how essential it was to fly up the right fiord; if one chose the wrong one, the fiord was too narrow to turn round to make an exit, and the Dakota lacked the power to climb steeply out over the mountains! I was very careful to select the right fiord!
From time to time we carried interesting passengers; one was the well-known Daily Express war correspondent, Alan Moorehead, though he did sleep most of the journey; another was Ivy Benson, leader of the all-ladies dance-band whom we took to Brussels where she was arranging a concert for her band. Another interesting experience was our first landing using GCA, Ground Controlled Approach. We were on a flight to Hamburg, and conditions got worse and worse from the Dutch coast onwards. When we arrived, I thought, "We shall never be able to land here," but a very confident voice started talking us down, giving us very, very detailed instructions, to which, of course, I was able to listen just as well as the pilot could. The final instruction was, "When you see the runway, go ahead and land." At that very moment we saw the runway appearing out of the murk in front of us. Conditions were so bad, even on the ground, that we had to follow a van sent out to guide us in, and when we did stop just by the control tower, I noticed that the RAF Ensign flying above it was actually in cloud; conditions couldn't have been much worse; it was a very impressive experience indeed, and gave us great confidence in GCA for the future.
We were at Croydon from September till December, then just after Christmas BOAC announced that it required move navigators, so I thought the time had come to use my Civil Air Navigator's Licence. Strictly, this is post-war experience, of course, as was the spell at Croydon, for I had listened to Churchill's speech announcing the end of the war at Talbenny. However, it seems all part of my
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war-time experience, for I should not have had the opportunity if I had not been a navigator in the RAF. In early January, I was posted from Croydon to Whitchurch, just outside Bristol, where all aircrew transferring from the RAF to BOAC - and there were considerable numbers at this time, of course - were sent to undertake a course to familiarise themselves with civilian methods. It was a thorough training lasting about two months at what was known as CTS - Civil Training School. Most of the work was in the classroom, but we flew one or two cross-country navigation exercises, and all had to undertake two flights outside the war zone of Europe, which didn't leave much scope, of course. I did one flight to Stockholm and one to Lisbon; we carried two navigators, one of whom navigated on the outward flight, and the other on the homeward, meanwhile the one not actually navigating practised astro in the astro-dome. We had to fly first to Hurn, now Bournemouth International Airport, to clear Customs, there being no Customs at Whitchurch. In spite of currency restrictions on the amount of sterling we were allowed, we returned laden with goods we hadn't been able to obtain for a long time, especially from Portugal, when we were able to purchase so many of those fruit we hadn't seen for years.
At the end of the course we were posted to various BOAC lines - the equivalent of an RAF Squadron. Most of us I think, hoped for a posting to London Airport for the Transatlantic route, but I was quite happy to join No. 4 Line which operated flying-boats out of Poole Harbour to Singapore, and whose maintenance base and administrative headquarters was at Hythe, on Southampton Water, only 15 minutes on the ferry from Southampton.
The BOAC flying-boats, themselves known as Hythes, were, in fact, ex-RAF Sunderlands with the gun-turrets fared in and the interior comfortably furnished for passengers. They were quite elephantine in size, internally scarcely smaller than a modern 'jumbo' yet we carried only 35 passengers. It was all very comfortable; it was also very leisurely, for the Hythes cruised only at about 130 knots, had a range of only about 800 miles, so that we had to make frequent landings to refuel, and were not pressurised, so that we rarely flew higher than 6,000 to 8,000 feet. I was sent down the route once with a BOAC experienced navigator; we flew to Singapore and back, which normally took crews 18 days, and then I was on my own. There was no regular crew as I had always been used to in the RAF, both in Bomber and Transport Commands. One turned up to find that one was scheduled to fly with a certain Captain, a certain First Officer, a certain Radio Officer and a certain Flight Engineer, and off we went; in the year I spent with BOAC I never flew more than once with the same aircrew member of any category. There were also 7 or 8 stewards under a Senior Steward who was usually an ex-Merchant Navy seaman.
Navigation was, by RAF standards, fairly primitive. I had a great deal of respect for these old pre-war Imperial Airways pilots, but they knew very little about radar, and didn't really want to know anything about it; they had always managed perfectly well without radar, and as far as they were concerned, they would go on managing without it! The navigator had an air-speed indicator, an altimeter, a driftmeter, a sextant, and an astrocompass, and occasionally the assistance of a radio bearing, but much of the navigation was by pinpointing places one passed over and by taking visual bearings to obtain position lines, which was fine in good weather conditions, but less satisfactory when the weather deteriorated.
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The Navigating Officer had other duties, too. In those days there was no radio-telephone contact between the flight-deck and the passenger cabin, so it was up to him to keep the passengers supplied with information; at least once an hour he had to provide an information sheet for the passengers telling them where they were, what they could expect to see on either side of the aircraft in the next hour, the height and speed over the ground, and the ETA at the next destination. Another duty was to climb on top of the aircraft through the astrodome if the pilot had to turn in choppy water; he would then walk to the wing-tip to keep the float on that side down in the water so that the pilot could execute his turn; I didn't have to do this on many occasions, but it was an interesting new task! Yet another was to sit halfway out of the astrodome when engines were being started up holding the fire extinguisher, so that if one of the engines caught fire as it was been started, the navigator could dash along the wing to dowse the fire; I've always been glad that I was never called upon to perform this particular part of a Navigating Officer's duty!
Our passengers were assembled at Airways Terminal in London and travelled by train to Poole, where they were accommodated at the Harbour Heights Hotel. The crew, too, arrived at the same hotel during the afternoon, and after a leisurely meal together, retired early since we always left at first light the next morning. The flying boats looked very elegant if one was watching them take off, but inside the boat it sounded, as someone once said, 'like dragging a rake across a corrugated tin roof.' fortunately, my experience at Pensacola had prepared me for the din. The first leg of our journey took us from Poole to Marseilles, a flight of between four and a half and five hours. We never normally night-stopped there, but flew on another five hours to Augusta in Sicily, previously an Italian naval flying-boat base. The schedule was so arranged that although the passengers went on the following morning with a crew already there, the crew spent two nights at Augusta, a most attractive place to stay with water-skiing and swimming off the jetty in almost guaranteed sunshine. Our blue uniforms were left there to be cleaned and pressed while we were further east, and we changed into khaki drill, picking up our blue uniform on our return journey. After two delightful days at Augusta, we flew on to Cairo, a six and a half hour flight. Landing on the Nile provided quite a tricky task for the Engineer, as it was his responsibility to slip a boat hook through a loop of rope on one of the buoys. Since the Nile is quite a fast-flowing river, this was not easy, but woe betide him if he missed first time, as he occasionally did, for the Captains were never happy to have to go round again. They regarded it as a sleight on their professional reputation if they didn't moor up first time.
From Cairo, usually after a night-stop on a house-boat on the Nile, to Basra was a further six hours. Once you had crossed the Suez Canal, there was little to see except desert, apart from the Dead Sea. Flights then had to keep north of Saudi Arabia as the King, Abdul Aziz Ibn Suad, did not allow flights across his kingdom. However if you flew too far north, you could probably see the pipeline across the desert, and eventually you would see the Euphrates and land close to its confluence with the Tigris. On one occasion we were flying quietly across the desert in a cloudless sky, when we suddenly hit a ferocious up-current of air; all my navigation equipment flew into the air off my chart-table and deposited itself all round the flight deck; one or two of the passengers sustained minor cuts and bruises, but it was all over in a
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moment; one of the dangers at not being able to fly high enough to get over the turbulence.
Another two and a quarter hours flying took us down the Red Sea to Bahrein, and then between six and six and a half hours almost due east to Karachi. We cross Qatar, and then the Oman Peninsula, certainly the most desolate landscape I had ever seen. Balukistan was on our port beam as we flew on to Karachi, where crews broke their journey again. We nearly all used to visit a cobbler there; we carried a cut-out of the feet of one's wife or fiancee, and he would make a very nice pair of sandals which could be collected on the way home. Clothes and shoes were still rationed in the UK, so they were very acceptable; they cost twelve rupees, about eighteen shillings.
An incident occurred at Karachi which I recall with amusement. When we stayed at hotels down the route, the Captain normally stayed at one hotel, the professional aircrew at another, and the stewards at yet a third - there were no stewardesses in those days, of course. On one occasion at Karachi, by some mischance, the Chief Steward was accommodated in the same hotel as the aircrew; I don't think it worried the aircrew in the least, but the Captain was horrified, and felt it necessary to see each member of the crew personally to apologise for the indignity we had suffered in having a steward in our hotel! It was a different world, of course.
We carried as far as Karachi on one occasion a group of six French models, mannequins as we called them then. They embarked at Marseilles, and were going to Australia as France attempted to rebuild its export market. As we travelled further east and south, the climate became hotter and hotter, for there was no air conditioning on aircraft then, and these six exceedingly glamorous young ladies started to divest themselves of their garments till by the time we were nearing Karachi, one would not have thought they could remove a further item and remain respectable. I never knew the flight crew so solicitous for the welfare of passengers; so many visits were made to the passenger cabin that it seemed at times there was hardly anyone remaining on the flight deck!
The next leg, across India, was quite the longest stretch of the journey, taking between eight and eight and a half hours, so we were just about at the limit of our range. Fortunately there was a lake between Karachi and Calcutta for use in emergency, and once on the homeward route, flying into a headwind and petrol getting low, we took the precaution of landing there. Calcutta was, I found, unbearably hot; in temperature it probably was not quite as hot as Bahrein, but Bahrein's heat was dry, whereas at Calcutta the humidity was so high that I was always glad to get back into the air a few thousand feet to cool down. I never once night-stopped there, which was probably a blessing, although in other ways I regret this [as this] is one of the world's great cities that I have never seen.
A four hour flight took us from the River Hooghly, just north of the Willingdon Bridge, where we had landed, to Rangoon in the great wide estuary of the River Rangoon, which is really, I suppose, part of the Delta of the Irrawaddy. It was quite a distance in a launch from the landing site back to the jetty; on one occasion, I
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had hardly put my foot on the bottom step of the jetty when a voice above me exclaimed "Arthur!" It was my old friend George Brantingham - now Squadron Leader Brantingham, DFC and Bar, command Navigation Officer - who was there to welcome one of our passengers; after leaving 97, he had served as a navigation instructor for a while at an OTU, then crewed up with a pilot who was going to the Far East to fly Liberators on very long-range bombing operations against the Japanese in Malaya.
A further flight of about five and a half hours took us to Penang, not normally a night-stop, but where we sat on the shore under sunshades while the Hythe was being refuelled, drinking fresh cold fruit juice and eating mangosteen. The final leg to Singapore took another three hours, a total for the journey from Poole of between fifty-five and sixty hours flying spread over nine days, nearly all of it in daylight. The passengers would reach Sydney four or five days after leaving Poole; a Qantas crew would be waiting for them in Singapore, and would take them on to Jakarta, Darwin, and so to Sydney.
We always had a break of two days at Singapore before setting out on the return journey, the same route in reverse. One remembered to pick up sandals at Karachi; silk stockings and wine, marsala, at Augusta, and also change back into blue there; taking off from Augusta, some of the Captains would always make a point of circling Mount Etna with its wisp of smoke blowing from the crater before setting off on the final leg back to Poole eighteen days after setting out. There was supposed to be a guarantee of seven days at home after each service flight, not all leave, because crews had to go to Hythe for debriefing one day, but on one occasion I had been at home only three days when I received a telegram requiring me to be at Poole for the next day's service.
Two of our flights took a slightly different route. From Rangoon, we flew to Bangkok, a flight of six hours, then on across the River Mekong to Hong Kong; the route was fairly close to Hanoi, but we were briefed to stay clear of the city because there was already trouble in what was then French Indo-China and anti-aircraft fire had frequently been seen above Hanoi. We flew on across the South China Sea, traversing Hainan, intensively cultivated, to arrive in Hong Kong six and a half hours after leaving Bangkok. Landing there then was very different from today; there wasn't a single skyscraper to be seen; our first flight to Hong Kong made a small piece of aviation history, as on August 27th. 1946, we were the first civil aircraft to land in Hong Kong after the war.
I flew with BOAC for just over a year, the final eight months of my RAF service on secondment, then six months on contract as a civilian. The Corporation offered me a post as an instructor at their School, which had now moved to Aldermaston, but even then I could see very little future for navigators in civil aviation, and events soon proved me right. Time was running out for the flying boats, too. They were slow and uneconomic. Moreover BOAC was the only airline operating boats, which meant that they alone were responsible for maintaining the bases from which they operated with the expense of launches and ground staff who could not be shared with other lines. In fact, BOAC continued to operate them for only another two years; they went out of service in November 1950.
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My flying days were almost over; but not quite, for the post-war RAFVR (Volunteer Reserve) opened up in the summer of 1948, and since there was a base, Hamble, only 5 miles away from the village where we had set up home in Hampshire, I joined, and enjoyed about forty hours flying a year, mainly at week-ends, but with a fortnight's annual training every summer. Flying was mainly navigational exercises in Ansons, but there was an occasional flight into Europe, - we went to Sylt on one occasion - and I had the opportunity to fly on the Berlin Airlift for a few weeks, at about the time that the operation was coming to an end. I note from my log-book that the load we most commonly carried - in Dakotas once more - was coal. Flying continued at Hamble, No. 14 Reserve School, till the summer of 1953, when the incoming administration, desirous of making cuts in government spending, closed most of the Reserve Schools. However, No. 15, at Redhill, survived another year, and I did a fortnight's summer training there in 1954. Then the remaining Reserve Schools were closed, and although I held a war appointment post at HQ Transport Command for about five more years, that really was the end of my days in aviation, and therefore a suitable place to end this story.
A few years after the war, a memorial was built at Runnymede for those airmen with no known grave. It was unveiled by the Queen in 1953. My parents, my wife and I were asked to represent the Munro family, Jimmy's parents and two brothers; we did so gladly, but with great sadness.
My wife and I also represented Jimmy's brothers at the unveiling of the Canada Memorial in Green Park on 3rd. June 1994.
A.H.G.S.
April 2003
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[Photograph of author, captioned: "In front of the Brandenburg Tor, Berlin, during Operation Plainfare, the Berlin Airlift, August, 1949."
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[centred] Afterthoughts....two differing points of view. [/centred]
EPILOGUE
[Death of a Hero by Richard Aldington]
[Henry V before Agincourt by William Shakespeare]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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An interesting war
Description
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Memoir of the life of Arthur Spencer. Includes details of childhood and growing up. Continues with his joining the Royal Air Force and his training in the United States as a pilot and then navigator. Followed by training in England and then posting to 97 Squadron at Woodhall Spa where he flew 22 operations. Narrates how squadron was moved to Royal Air Force Bourn and joined the pathfinder force where he completed first tour with 32 operations before going on to a second tour for a total of 45. Describes how he subsequently went to North Africa and Italy where he flew with 462/614 Squadron before becoming 205 Group Navigation Officer. On return from the Mediterranean he converted to transports before leaving to join B.O.A.C. Illustrated with photographs of people, places and events of his life.
Creator
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Arthur Spencer
Date
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2003-07
Format
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66 page typewritten document with b/w photographs
Language
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eng
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BSpencerAHGSpencerAHGv1
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Royal Air Force
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Joy Reynard
David Bloomfield
462 Squadron
614 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
C-47
evacuation
fear
Gee
ground crew
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memorial
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Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
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RAF Scampton
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Woodhall Spa
Resistance
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searchlight
superstition
training
Wellington
Window
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/15907/APattersonGE190126.1.mp3
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Patterson, Ernie
Gilbert Ernest Patterson
G E Patterson
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Patterson, GE
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2015-10-08
2019-01-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Gilbert Ernest Patterson DFM (b. 1922 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 635 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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Transcription
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BE: So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Beth Ellin and the interviewee is Mr Gilbert Patterson. The interview is taking place in Mr Patterson’s home in Darlington on the 26th of January 2019. Joining us is his daughter Catherine Hodgson. Off you go!
EP: Me? Well I was accepted into the RAF on the 4th of February, 1942, and prior to that I was helping to build aerodromes such as Middleton St George which is a bomber station and the satellite to Middleton St George which was Croft, that was, and from there I was called up into the RAF and the first place I went to, where everybody went to, was Blackpool and it was there that I was trained and learned to do Morse Code which was, I’d been accepted for. And we, it was all done in the Winter Gardens and all the teachers were ex GPO instructors and they were the ones, and there you had to get to ten words a minute and you got tested four, six, eight and ten, and if you failed any of them on the way to ten, if you, you sat it three times and if you sat it the third time you’re out.
BE: So you passed.
EP: That was, that was, the first thing you were doing all the foot slogging and everything. The Marks, I always remember the Marks and Spencers was where they kept all your documents. We used to do a guard duty on ‘em, two, two hours on and two hours off and we’d march up to somebody’s back street they’d stop outside somebody’s garage, they’d open the garage door and it was full of rifles and that was where we had to get, we were issued with rifles then and we did rifle drill on the Promenade at Blackpool. We were there about three or four month and we used to do PT on the sands, and the next time we went from there would be a ground wireless operator, place called Madley and from there we went, the next stop was Yatesbury where I trained to be air wireless operator and from there I think we went and we did a, I went to gunnery school up at Evanton and trained to be an air gunner as well, but I was never in the turrets on operations. Am I doing, is this all you want? And that was at Evanton up in Scotland and from there, that’s where we got our three stripes as a sergeant and we marched to the RAF marchpast when we’re on the passing out parade, I always remember that, but it’s hard to remember where I was. Then after that we ended up at, I forget what is was we were at, it was at, I think we ended up at an advanced flying unit where there was sprog navigators and sprog wireless operators and we had instructors with us on this at the advanced flying school, and from there I went, I don’t know I went to there first, after the gunnery school, and we ended up crewing up which was at a place called Abingdon and it was there that you all crewed up and you were all put in a hangar and you had to pick your own crew. You once told you were flying with them, you picked your own crew there. And I think we flew from there, our first time I was flying and their satellite was called Stanton Harcourt and that was where we flew in Whitleys. Then from there we went from Whitleys up to heavy unit on Halifaxes, at Rufforth, that’s near York, have you heard of that? That’s near York, and from there, we were, when we graduated from there we were recommended for that we could have either gone to 10 squadron in Melbourne which is main force or we could have gone to Downham Market on the Pathfinder and we plumped for that. See we, that was our dealing with us then, we could have gone there and got the chop, but this, we got to Downham Market. At Downham Market I was there a month [emphasis] before we went on operations and prior to that we had been training for five month as a crew, you know, before we got on operations, so when we got to Downham we were training on Downham Market for five, for four weeks before we got on operations which was after D-Day and it was there that I crossing the runway to do a DI on a bomber I found a horseshoe which is now over the back door in my kitchen and it were on every bombing raid I went on that, that horseshoe. Look. No kidding that.
BE: And were there other things people had, in the plane that were for superstitions?
EP: Pimpernel.
BE: Well, yes.
EP: We got, there we were issued Pimpernel aids. Have you heard of that, eh? Have you heard of it?
BE: Tell me.
EP: That comb on there, I’ve got it, show you, it’s got a compass inside it: that was one, they were called Pimpernel aids. Then there’s also you know the clip on the pencil which navigators had, you know the metal thing that goes on with the blob on the end, that was another one, you could stand it on the end of the pencil point like that and the blob on the end pointed north, this was in case you got shot down, help you to find where you were and which way to start walking.
BE: And the trees. South.
EP: And we went to lectures to see, they showed you pictures of places where you could get shot down and to give you extra idea of where you were and the only thing I learned from it was that the longest branches of the tree point south, [emphasis] that’s the only thing I can ever remember of it! Not that you could do – but we didn’t need any of them – but also you could have pipe which navigators, a pipe, you pulled the stem out the pipe and in the end of that stem there was a bit of cotton wool there was a compass in there! That was in a pipe and you could have a pick whatever you wanted. And you could also get a pair of buttons, which you put on your trousers and if you could pull them off and turn the buttons round like that and there was a pin on one end and there was a dot on the other one and it would point north, that was another helping to find you, where you were. Have you been told this before?
BE: Not, in an interview, no. It’s really interesting.
EP: Right. That was another way of finding, if you needed, to find your way back. But as it was, that was, as you know, main force you did thirty missions, then you went on to, you go as an instructor somewhere, then you go back and do another fifty. But on Pathfinder Force you had to do the fifty, cause you had all the latest gadgets for navigating and they didn’t want you to leave, so you had to do fifty trips on Pathfinders, if you didn’t make it. Now as we went on to, with us being recommended, lots of crews would go on to Pathfinders that were already on a squadron and they’d done ops, but when you go on to, I suppose this happens on a squadron anyway, well if you hadn’t done any operations and you get on to the Pathfinders, your pilot goes with an experienced crew – I bet you’ve known this before cause they’ve told you - and they fly with another crew to show him what it’s like before he takes his own crew. Well what happened on our, with us he did his second, call his second dicky, and he, cause and he and the two navigators who had already done, he’d done thirty trips, we, they were taken off and posted away, cause you had to be good as a navigation team, that was the main thing on a Pathfinder crew, and with him doing his second dicky we only did twenty nine the rest of the crew and that pilot and the two navigators weren’t making the grade as far as Don Bennet went, he was the boss of Pathfinders, and they were posted overnight and I don’t know where they went, but that left us all spare, the rest of the crew. We’d all done our twenty nine. Well I got on to another crew that lost their wireless operator. Apparently they’d been at the same stage as us, well you know what they were doing, and apparently they’d been shot up over somewhere and they were on two engines coming back to this country and he was heading for Woodbridge, emergency landing strip in Surrey, and on the approach he lost another engine and it crash landed. They all got out bar the wireless operator, he was killed and I took his place.
BE: And his name was?
EP: And his name was Jimmy Crabtree. I think he was from Rochdale, I always remember that, and I think he was an ex-police cadet before he joined the RAF. I always remember that.
BE: And what happened about his sister, writing to you?
EP: And his sister, once she got all his belongings and that, there was a picture of me in it and I’ve got a picture of him somewhere, and she said I hope you have better luck than what Terry did. That was from his sister.
BE: You’ve still got the letter?
EP: Eh?
BE: And you’ve still got this letter.
EP: And I’ve still got, I haven’t got her letter, I’ve got his photograph.
BE: His photograph.
EP: That was that time. Then what was the next thing? I got in with this crew and after that we were top dogs after that. We lost the, I was this wireless operator, and towards the end, I’ll go back to when, when you’re on a Pathfinder Squadron you’re not all marking the target, you know what the Pathfinders did, don’t you, you marked the target, but lots of you, you didn’t all mark the target you went as a supporter, you supported, supported the ones who were marking the target. Anyway when you get to be, you were selected to be a Master Bomber and you were a Master Bomber as you get, first there you were marking the target, you find it and marking it for the bombers and I can always remember the calls, the callsign was Portland One and it always reminds me of a bag of cement, I used to say. And as I said you’re first there and you’re orbiting the target, directing operations to where the TIs and marking the target and the skipper’d tell, speak to all the bombers who were listening out to you, and you had to, and time was the main thing. You had to be there on that minute so that you didn’t bump into one another: there was lots of people lost by that. Where the TIs went down off marking aircraft, being a Master Bomber you’re circling and you’ve got a deputy going round with you, and you’d be wherever the target indicators were going down and cascading on to the aiming point, see we’d marked the aiming point and you tell them if you weren’t on the target, the Master Bomber would tell all the bombers to bomb to one left, or to one right or to the cascading red greens or whatever to go, he’d maybe tell you to ignore the bomb the fading green TIs and bomb the red ones, so that’s what the Master Bomber did. When that raid was over the skipper would assess that raid whether it was successful or not and me as the wireless operator, he’d tell me and I used be in touch with this country before any bomber got back, with that information. And he’d say if that wasn’t a success, said we’ll be coming here again. [laughs] That’s what a Master Bomber did, and I can still remember our base callsign was Off Strike and the aircraft was called Cut Out. I can still remember all that. And I’ve got a, I’ve got a thing in the garage now, and it’s got all the callsigns of all the squadron on a piece of lino, [emphasis] which were, and it’s written in chalk and I’ve still got that chalk on that lino from 1944.
BE: Wow!
EP: It’s in my garage now. Nowadays there’d be some sophisticated computer to give you, give ‘em all information like that.
BE: What about the bombs and people getting killed with the wings getting chopped off?
EP: Oh aye, and on a daylight you think you’re the only ones in the sky when it’s dark, at night time, and on a daylight raid when you used to go, you had to watch if you were getting bombs dropping from an aeroplane that was above you: knocking wingtips off, knocking rear turrets off with the gunner still in it – it happened all the time, but.
BE: What about when you used, with the coffee and trying to get through the plane?
EP: I was in charge of six, a flask six coffees in, to me, I called it creosote. I’ve never drunk coffee ever since, it was that terrible and I used to have to go down to the rear gunner with a flask of coffee and emergency oxygen bottle and you had to slide down on there you couldn’t just walk there, you were all over the sky avoiding flak and searchlights and all that. And I can remember, with being on the Path, you had what they called an H2S, which the second nav, you see we had two navigators. The second navigator operated this H2S and it was like a gadget you could see through cloud with it, onto the road, and that was why, with very little of it, we were the first to get it and you could see the ground. I’d just go back to rear turret, bang on his door, he’d open the door and I’d take the top off flask and give him, straight into his mouth and he’d break a lump of ice off his lung, off his exhaust thing on his mask and give it to me and I’d take it back up to the front and I’d throw it on the navigator’s table and the next day when I went to do a DI on that bomber it was still there but it’s smaller. And that was, that was one of the trips. And in that there were six flasks of coffee and they were all breakable so you can imagine they all did get broken, you’d just get the case off the back of your truck, and you’ve got a packet of rations and in it was six boiled sweets, handful of raisins, packet of chewing gum and a block of chocolate. Have you been told that before?
BE: No.
EP: That’s what we got for the rations.
BE: What did you eat when you landed?
EP: When you landed we got egg and bacon, and chips. And they was all rationed in civvie street, we had a ration thing for it. But we had three, I’ll give you three stories. This particular day, when the army couldn’t take Osnabruck, right, if you remember that was one of the places, and we were on, if you weren’t on missions you were on training and I can remember when we’d go on a cross country run that was for the navigators and meet up with the fighters somewhere, exercise for the gunners or we’d end up over the Wash to drop the, for the bomb aimer to practice dropping smoke bombs that were called ten pound smoke bombs. And what fascinated me, and still does, when the skipper talked to the ground, tell them that we were going to start bombing, the target was in the Wash, you used to have to tell ‘em what height you were at, they used the word Angels, right, Angels Five, you were at five thousand feet, you were ready to bomb the site, that sticks in my mind, what a lovely word: Angels Five to describe your height. I always remember that. [laughs] Anyway, this particular day, we, and I had to, me, I had to contact base every half hour in case there was a recall and this day there was. We had to get back and it was to bomb Osnabruck which the army couldn’t take, they were having trouble getting it so we had to go and soften it up, but the thing was, when we got back and we were briefed to where we were going and we went straight away, whereas as a rule, they take, once you know where you’re going, they take you out to the bomber and you’re kept there for an hour, an hour and a half, before you left but this raid was very important for the army. We took off straight away, but when we got in the aeroplane, we found it weren’t full up and one of the ground staff they left it to another lad to put petrol in and he didn’t and we were ready to go out to take off. The flight engineer, that’s him there -
BE: His name?
EP: Harry. Sitting next to me on that picture. Harry, his name was Harry Parker, but his real name was John Henry: that’s him, and that’s him. He said we haven’t got enough petrol to get us there and back skipper. And the skipper said we must have, he said how much have we got and he, the navi, he tried to work it out – the flight engineer – and he said well what was in, it’s not enough to get us there and back and the skipper said we go and we’ll bale out over France!
BE: Coming back.
EP: We got out to take off, got to the end of the runway, he turned on and went on to another dispersal, broke RT silence and I said about that we had no petrol, cause we were, otherwise we would have had time to sort that out, but we could have taken off straight away after being briefed. Anyway, what happened, but navigation leader and had to talk with the navi, they came in a bomber and they were all taking off to go and he, you know when you go to a target you dog leg, you never fly straight there, did you know that? You fly dog leg, that way Jerry’s guessing which way you’re going by doing that, and he has his fighters on a certain place and you don’t go there, that’s how we used to fox the fighters. And he said we’ll have to cut that leg out and that leg out and take off at such-and-such a time. By the time they got the bowser from the NAAFI, one of the NAAFI drivers got the bowser, that’s the thing that carries the petrol in, hundred octane it is by the way, not what you could buy, this was hundred octane, by the time they got him down there, to fill and to give us enough petrol to get us there and back. He said well -
BE: Somebody came, someone came on the plane.
EP: We cut that leg out, we’re going to be taking off at this time. And he said well, the joke that’s coming, he said in the end, we set course fifty minutes late: they were all well on the way by then. And in the end the skipper said well we’ll cut all the legs out, we’ll go straight to the target, and one of the navigators, Buddy, he said we can’t go, bloody suicide going that way, and the skipper said well we’re going, are you coming with us? That’s the line and somebody said I might as well, got nothing better to do. That’s true story that.
BE: Very, very brave.
EP: We went straight, and that was the highest we ever got, we used to bomb at about nineteen thousand feet all the time, we were up at twenty three thousand feet that day and I was always in the astrodome. You know what that is, don’t you, the dome and inside that was a piece of bullet-proof Perspex in that in case you were attacked, we had to do that, and that particular day we were at twenty three thousand feet to try and avoid some of the light flak, or flak, and all of a sudden there was about half a dozen bursts of flak on our tail. Straight away the rear gunner shouted flak skipper: dive! And he put the aircraft into a dive and I were looking in the astrodome and I could look back and you could just imagine they were reloading and firing, and they burst and we were split second in front, away from it, if they’d been a bit nearer they’d have hit us. But we dived out of the way but that’s what happened and do you know the feeling when you’re last to go to bed you think somebody’s behind you, that’s the feeling I had. You could see all these flaks burst right behind, follow you, you could see, following you down like that, you could see where we’d been but anyway where these things gone off. Anyway, we managed to get there in time we did what we had to do and that was it. That was at one of the raids.
BE: How did they check the dive?
EP: Eh?
BE: How did they check the dive?
EP: Oh that was on Nuremburg that was.
BE: Oh right.
EP: D’you want another story? Right, we did a daylight on Nuremburg, do you know on a night raid we lost ninety five bombers, did you know that? You didn’t! Well you, we lost ninety five bombers: Lancasters, Halifaxes in one night, [emphasis] You didn’t know that, well you should have done. The lads must have told you that. I wasn’t on that raid though. And there was twelve crash landed in this country which were write offs, but that was the most we ever lost. Anyway, we did a daylight raid, that was a night raid but we did after that, being in the forty five we did a daylight raid on Nuremburg and we were on the first to drop ours and we got walloped and the aircraft, affected the ailerons or something, we went into a dive, and Harry, he told me he had his back up against the pilot’s control and he was pushing the control stick back with the pilot and it eventually responded and he levelled out so he came round, the raid was over, they’d all, they were all gone and on their way back home to England and we, he came round, just dropped the bombs, and he eventually turned round, tried to find our way home and all of a sudden these two fighters we thought were coming for us, and when they come along, I could see the mid upper gunner waiting for ’em, he was ready to have a go at them, they were coming and they were Mustangs, you’ve heard of them, haven’t you. Have you? American Mustangs, well they flew right along, escorted us back, and there was one on each side of us and this feller at this, on the starboard side, he had his hood back, coloured lad, and he was smoking a Havana cigar, let the smoke out. That’s a true story. [Unclear] They were based over there somewhere.
BE: You had no engine power, gun power, is that right?
EP: That was another time, that. Anyway, when they left, from out of nowhere what came alongside? It was a Spitfire! Where the hell he’d come from? He followed until we crossed into the Channel area and he broke away as he was based over there. That was another story. Are you interested?
BE: Very interested!
EP: And that’s what happened to him. Do you want another story?
BE: Definitely!
EP: I think, we were briefed to go to Leipzig and our second navigator, he was a Russian Jew, his name was Boris Brezlov. He came from Russia with his grandparents and the name was Breslovski and they cut the ski off the end and they called themselves Breslov, anyway he was doing his chart, in flying control and he could sense somebody standing behind him, and he said the waiting [unclear] to go and he said don’t stand there behind mind, bugger off somewhere else and at that this arm came over his shoulder with all the bloody gold braid on it and he seen it and it was Don Bennett, Air Vice Marshall, but he was in charge of the Pathfinders, and he said, and he expected to be taken outside and shot. Said only RAF to tell an Air Vice Marshal to bugger off! That’s another story. True story that, yeah. But, er, is that enough?
BE: If you would like to take a break, we can take a break and come back in a bit.
EP: We’ll take a break.
BE: So we’re just coming back from a little bit of a break.
EP: Well this first pilot I flew with his name was Jack Harold, and he had a car, a Morris Minor, and with him getting posted, he came into the billet, he says anybody want to buy a motor car? And I said to him Jack, yeah I’ll have it, how much you want for it? He says twenty eight pound. And I said to him I said well I’ll have it Jack no intentions of driving and I’ve still got, I went into out Downham, into village, and I borrowed, I took twenty five pound out of me Post Office Saving book, what I’ve got in that drawer over there, and I had three pound in me pocket and that was the twenty eight I give him for the car. And the very first time we all three of six of us went into Downham Market in it and it, what happened, I found the brakes weren’t very good so the next time, before I went the second time I went in the car and I found I’d have a job, and they were all cable brakes and not like they are now, and I of course, clever me, I just thought I’d slacken them off meself and I put, and we got in it and of course when I took off I’d tightened them too much, and they were getting really hot and hubs of the wheels were red hot with binding, they was stretching acting as a brake, I couldn’t hardly move so we stopped and I could see all the hubs of the wheels were red hot so what we all did we did, we had a pee on the wheels to cool ‘em off. True that. Yeah. We did.
BE: [Laugh]
EP: We got back in and went the rest of the way and back without any brakes at all. I managed, I slackened them right off. I thought I’d adjust them by tightening them and we found that all brakes on cars you could hear ‘em when you tune up, you can hear ‘em catching. That’s how they should have been. Cause I slackened them right off and we went the rest of the way there and back without any brakes. And that was where I used to go to what they called the Corn Exchange in Wisbech and that was where you had all dance bands in there, that’s where I learned to dance and where I met my wonderful wife. In the end eventually she used to phone me up in to the mess, at times there weren’t allowed any outside calls come in, security wise, and you know you never seen anybody with cameras, they were taboo, you weren’t allowed cameras but she used to phone me every day and if I wasn’t going to see her on the night I used to say to her how did work go down this morning and when I said that she knew I wasn’t going to see her then on that night. You couldn’t, there were times when they wouldn’t allow outside calls coming in. That’s how security was, when you, like you see on here you talk about. That was it. You never went anywhere. What’s next?
BE: Octane, hundred octane fuel for your car.
EP: Anyway, we got a shop in the village, I managed to salvage one of the lad’s, we had water bottles and a bag that fit it to put it in, and I managed to salvage that and I got three of these bottles and they just went snug into this bag and I used to take them out to the ground staff lads out that, where the bomber was based, but sometimes they only had MT petrol, was a lot less than hundred octane. But course you know they used to, with the petrol that the ground staff lads had, they used to clean the nacelles, you know where the nacelles are on the bomber, it’s where the wheels go in to and they used to clean the engines nacelles with the stirrup pump and petrol in the bucket and pump it away inside the bomber where the wheels go and one guy used to fill these three cans for me with six pints with petrol what they used to clean the engine out, and he’d put it in and leave the bags in the back of the car, he’d, after I’d filled the tank up with that six pints he’d get it after he’d had his dinner, he’d go back to the bomber and he’d put, he’d fill ‘em up again and he’d come back and he’d fill it up again, and that’s a gallon and a half for the night out and I used to pick him up and the six of us in the one car and that. That was very naughty, you aren’t allowed to do that. But we also had FIDO and it used ninety thousand gallons an hour and it used to disperse the fog, you know on the side of the runway. There was only two bomber stations that had it at the time and we were one of them.
BE: So what did you do when you went out with your crew on kind of leave time and your relaxation time?
EP: Leave.
BE: What did you do with, you say you’d go to the Corn Exchange?
EP: That was what we’d do of a night time, it was where a dance bands, that was proper dancing in those days, quicksteps, waltzes and all that, you got a lot of excuse-me dancing there, and that was where I met the wife and she was in the Land Army, have you heard of the Womens’ Land Army, and she was on a shilling an hour, five p an hour, that was her wages for her that. And you know me, as a flight sergeant, do you know what my pay was, sixty two and a half pay, that’s twelve and six a day, that was my pay, a shilling of that was danger money, that was right, sixty two and a half p a day. Now when I left school in 1936 and went to be apprentice joiner, my pay were twenty seven p a week: that was the pay. In those days you could buy a three bedroomed semi-detached house for three hundred and sixty five pound!
BE: Did you mention Newcastle airport?
EP: Then with me being a joiner, I was, when the war started 1939, all building work stopped and I ended up, before I went into the RAF, I ended up working at Middleton St George which was a bomber station weren’t it, and Croft was a satellite to it and I worked there and from there I was called up and went in back to where, you know where I started off with this going to Blackpool. That was when I started.
BE: When did you go to Newcastle Airport?
EP: That was, as I say I was working at Newcastle Airport, it was called Goosepool before, that was it’s name. I can remember when I was a young lad I used to go and meet me cousins that lived near the airport, and we used to go bird nesting where it was Bomber Command, took off from there, and that was there. I can always remember I was working in one of the village for the future crew, soldiers and all was gonna take it over and the army was having a practice, a display, one lot was chasing the others and they [unclear] down to some aircraft flying nearby and some of these soldiers came through these billet holes I was fixing a doorway in and on the frame of the doorframe there was a strap to hold the frame together when you fixed it, and I was stood, what amused me was, one of these, one of them, you know the red the red army banners on and ran through one was being chased by the green lot of soldiers, they was practicing whatever, and he tripped up over this blinkin’ lath and he just dropped, he just fell out of the aeroplane and they were chasing, chasing and he tripped over this lath. [Laughs] He gets, the man said get up and he runs off. I didn’t dare face him anymore, I had to turn away. That was, that was before I went into the RAF, all that. All a long time ago.
BE: What about the characteristic of a Lanc take off.
EP: Did you know that the Lancaster has a pull to port on take off? Did you know that? She knows it.
BE: Tell the story though, be great.
EP: No, but this is it. The pilot had to juggle with it. That’s why we had eight in the crew. There’s two navigators, one was, one of them, the proper navigator, he was a lecturer in zoology at Reading University before he went into the RAF and the other one was, I told you, Boris Brezlov and he came from Russia with his grandparents, and he used to operate the H2S, the gadget we see through the floor.
BE: Their names, Graham Rose, their names?
EP: Graham Rose, he was the navigator, but you wouldn’t think he was on a bloody bomber here, cause I sat here and he sat there, and Boris sat there and I used to stand up and look through the astrodome, cause I got good marks, one exam I had I had excellent night vision, eyesight, this was part of it, when we got near the target he used to shout over tannoy get in that astrodome Pat, that shows I had good eyesight, keep me eye open for fighters, but the thing was you don’t fire at them unless they fire at you. This H2S, do you know what, it was all see through cloud, you could see the ground and now and again you’d get the navigator telling the pilot to tip his wing like that so that he could send the bloody radar to check how near another city was, used to check his and you wouldn’t think he was on a bomber raid he was that involved, with his, every five minutes on his chart was a little diamond track, and he was on course all the time and this is why I put it down to how we get away with it: we were in the right place at the right time. A good crew they were. And we all kept going until we all did, some did about fifty four trips, we all kept going till we all got our fifty in and that. And that, the first crew I was with, we seemed to get more, and out of all the fifty one raids we was on in all we lost two hundred and seventy five bombers, that was, I kept a check of it, and I got three hundred and fifty flying hours in Lancasters alone, and two hundred and fifty of ‘em was operational and I never got the defence medal because I wasn’t, I’d got to do three years non-operational. You see on the phone they said you only did two, they had tabs on you all the time, you only did two and I was still training, that was two training with the crew before I got on ops. And I always remembered, if I’d been in the Home Guard or the Fire Service that would have counted, all the time I was building aerodromes before I went into the RAF, so they could have taken that into account, couldn’t they? That was better than being on Home Guard, that’s what it was. And I can still remember our callsigns, I may have told you this anyway: it was Off Strike: base and Cut Out for the aircraft, and you more or less got your same aircraft all the time unless it was getting a service and that. Wonderful aeroplane, the old Lancaster, wonderful. We had a squadron of Mosquitos with us, you know what, there was about eight, seven or eight Mosquito Pathfinder squadrons during the war and biggest part of them was Mosquitos and we had a squadron of Mosquitos and they originated from Thornaby, which is just up the road, and they could take off with a four thousand pound bomb if the bomb doors weren’t fully closed. I’ve got, show you some pictures. Pull it back. This was, is it still going? This was our, my last raid on Heligoland.
BE: Oh, wow!
EP: That was there. Read the bottom of it, tells you the height we were at and everything. And that’s the raid we did on Nuremburg where we had a bit of hiccup there.
BE: They’re amazing.
EP: That’s all bombs leaving the bomber. Yeah, there was a four thousand bomb following all that.
BE: That’s incredible.
EP: That’s, that was from our own aeroplane. Yeah. This is my log book. Just look at that front page. You see what you can read on the right hand side. Read all the places I was at. We were on that one sunk the battleship von Scheer. German battleship, we were on that raid.
BE: Amazing. The red and the green and the black means different things.
EP: The red’s night time and the black’s daylight bombing raid and the green’s the daylight raids. You see Admiral von Scheer. Now my very first trip was on Stettin, you know where that, that was Poland. Eight and a half hours airborne and it wasn’t put, we went there a few times. On one raid we went up, we came over Norway, over Sweden, down into Poland. Eight and a half hour trip it was, and one time this pilot was listening out on his radio, and Sweden was opening fire, they weren’t trying to hit you, and you’re listening out and they said: ‘you are flying over neutral territory,’ you know, you shouldn’t be doing that, and pilot said, ‘we know, anyway coming back don’t open fire again.’ This pilot answered: ‘you are three thousand feet off target,’ [emphasis] and they answered them, said, ‘we know!’ They weren’t trying to hit you, they were just warning shots. True story that. That’s something to read that, that’s just that one, that’s the last page and that says, [pause] I was awarded the DFM, you know what the DFM is, don’t you, you do! Distinguished Flying Medal. I got twenty quid with that when I got demobbed! Yeah. It’s worth about four thousand pound now. And also, you get me that pen over there, all of that, all that. I’m going to show you some of my proud possessions. Being in the Pathfinder Force, you had to have a permit to wear them, to wear the badge, the gold badge. You could be pulled up, you could be pulled, that was my pilot, you could be pulled up by the Military Police if you were wearing it. Lots used to masquerade and weren’t entitled to it and were pulled up, and this was a permit I had, that was a permit I had to wear it, signed by Air Vice Marshal Bennett. You read that.
BE: That’s amazing! Awarded Pathfinder Force Badge, 23rd of February 1945.
EP: And that, not until you get permission from him, and that’s it, that’s one of my proud possessions.
BE: It’s amazing.
EP: Are you reading it?
BE: Yeah.
EP: You soon read that! And that’s the skipper, the second skipper I flew with. He died in 1990.
BE: His name?
EP: DSO, DFC he got. We all got decorated.
BE: His name.
EP: Eh?
BE: His name?
EP: Alex. That’s his book there look. There’s his name, there’s his book.
BE: Alex Thorne, DFC, DSO.
EP: That’s him there, he was top, a hell of a bloke, hell of a pilot. That’s what I put it down to, my idea, the navigator was the main one. He went, took you over the right spots, but and those, because cameras weren’t around get the very full pictures you get now. All the pictures you see and that’s his book. And that was at the Nuremburg raid. You can see the craters, see all the bomb craters on that one.
BE: Yeah, it’s amazing.
EP: The garrison see, flattened it. and we go on about the Germans, Germany did to us. We got nothing in this country to what the Germans got. The damage we did was out of this world to what, to what they got. Terrible. I thought that was sad, the damage we did. But er, if you want to read that after.
BE: Do you want, about the dinghy training?
EP: What?
BE: Dinghy training in Blackpool.
EP: What was that?
BE: About the training you did in dinghy training. If you came down in the sea and the aids that were on it.
EP: Well that’s it. You remember the comb? There’s the comb with the, with the compass inside. Can you see, if you look, you can shake it you can hear it at times. Can yer?
BE: No, I can’t.
EP: Can you [unclear] see there’s something inside the plastic, in there. Turn it over, there’s a compass in there.
BE: You would not know.
EP: Eh?
BE: It’s very clever. You would not know.
EP: Yeah, you just break it. Used to say you had two pins, two buttons you could sew on your flies, I said you put them on your trousers you’d pull them off to see where to go and your trousers would fall down. I used to crack on about that. But that’s all the page that. When you’ve finished doing this you can read that, but that was one of my proud possessions. You put it back did you? Was that. That was a permanent award. When I got demobbed you got, it was called a gratuity. It’s called redundancy now when you get, you finish work, in those days it was called gratuity, I got eighty two pound for all that and I got twenty pound for me gong, but now with all the memorabilia, with my DFM, me Pathfinder Certificate, that thing there, and me mate and all that: it’s worth two or three thousand quid.
BE: Amazing.
EP: And she kept them, my, in that, it’s all in that cabinet over there. I made that cabinet.
BE: It’s lovely.
EP: What else, pet?
BE: This was about the dinghy training and you used to, how you would detach from the plane and the training in Barrow-in-Furness
EP: Barrow-in-Furness, I don’t know how we go there. But the thing was you had to put all this flying gear on, what someone else had been training on it, it was all wet, trying to put it on and in turn you had to jump off the high dive, into the water, into a dinghy and one of the exercises was: the instructor there, he’d turn the dinghy over and you had, in turn you had to jump in the thing and try to get on to your knees into the round part of the dinghy and a couple of rubber handles on the bottom like that and you got to lift, don’t you, you’re right underneath it aren’t you and all the rest of the crew there would be in the water waiting to get in it and they’re all going get in it and you’re underneath it, [unclear] all get in it [laughter].
BE: So if it came down in the sea what was it equipped with?
EP: Inside of it? I was in charge of a portable tele, transmitter. The handle was folded up and also you’re tied to the bomber, in the right, into the starboard wing there was a plate there and on the inside of the aircraft if you know you’re coming down in the sea, channel, you pull this cord and it inflates the dinghy in the wing and blows this panel off and then you’ve got to get out of the aeroplane and get into the dinghy before it goes down and there’s a knife in there in the socket, you’ve got to cut the wire, if you didn’t it would pull you down in the water wouldn’t it so you’ve got to cut yourself free and make sure you’re all in it, and that’s how and this portable wireless that I was in charge of, what you’d to do you’d just connect this handle and crank it and it sent out SOS on a continuous note so they could take a bead on you, see where you are. I don’t know whether it worked or not, but that was what the job was, this portable and it was covered in about six inches of foam so it wouldn’t sink. And did you know the wings, the petrol tanks on the Lancasters, it’s got about six inches of foam round on about six petrol tanks. You take off two of them, and then you use the others and when you take off the two you landed on and they’re covered in six inches of foam, in case you get hit with flak, of course it’ll seal it again. Once you get, I only ever saw two fellas ever bale out of a Lancaster, they was all in the stream, bomber stream and they were on fire and I only seen two get out and it still kept going along with us, till eventually got away. But I’ve seen aircraft get a direct hit in the air and it just explodes. Pretty terrible, awful sight. Don’t know they’re born now. And do you know what, I don’t get a penny pension for what I went through. You don’t get nowt. I came out A1, if I’d come out wounded I’d have got one: I don’t get any pension.
BE: What about the dispersal, when you landed in fog and you followed a vehicle on the runway.
EP: The very first trip I did with this second pilot, we went to Merseburg and we lost a lot of bombers that night. And coming back it was that foggy where we were based, was working, and it was all, technical aircraft that they landed there, yes I, I had to listen to Group headquarters and the message was to all us bombers: we were diverted to Ford down near Southampton. I always remember that, and we were up at ten thousand feet, and the women, who were controllers, they were marvellous, their voices, women, they used to handle it, bring aircraft down wherever they were at, and you would get an aircraft calling up permission emergency to land short of fuel and someone ill on board and it would er -
BE: You landed, and a vehicle.
EP: And when you do land, you land and all of a sudden a little fifteen hundred weight van would nip in front of you and big words would appear on it: follow me and you would follow him somewhere then and when you get where he switches the light off and he goes and gets another aeroplane. Then the next day you had to go find, there was that many bloomin’ aircraft on the ground it took you ages to find your own aeroplane, course they all look alike on the ground, don’t they. Yeah. And coming back right, we were at the lowest I’ve ever been, we were hedge hopping all the way back. You know what hedge-hopping is? That’s what it means, hedge-hopping.
BE: Tell me.
EP: You used, rather tricky, you come down, had to take down to at least a thousand feet. We were just keeping low to get back, we were that low I couldn’t use the radio to tell them that we were coming home.
BE: What’s hedge-hopping?
EP: That was it, that was called hedge-hopping.
BE: You mentioned about when you checked the plane after you’d landed for the holes.
EP: That was the first trip, more action, you walk round the bomber, with, you all had equipment, to count all the holes you got in there, I can remember the flak used to go straight through the aeroplane you know, no problem at all. I can remember getting out of my seat to look at the astrodome and then when I went to sit on it again I put my hand on my seat to steady me down and there was hole, a bit of flak had gone through there. I wasn’t sitting on it at the time or it’d have gone right through!
BE: Lucky.
EP: That would have made your eyes water wouldn’t it. [Laughs]
BE: It would!
EP: That was it. Was a wonderful aeroplane. Three hundred and fifty flying hours in one and three hundred, and two hundred and fifty is operational. My longest trip was eight hours and fifty minutes, in the air, all at once. You take on oxygen all the time.
BE: What was the time you had a go at flying it?
EP: Oh aye, skipper give me, I had a fly of the bloody thing, you know. He had the automatic pilot in and I sat in the seat and the radome switched it back out back of that and you can feel your nose going, you pull your nose back and when you’re done and you feel going over like that and you pull that back you should go up over you go to pull that down, and the navigator Boris he comically said now try using your hands. [Laughter]
BE: Not your feet! What were the tests where they clipped your column?
EP: When they were testing for night vision tests. There was four of you sat round this thing in front of you and you all had a screen each and so you wouldn’t go forward to see what was, and they’d send a silhouette picture of a German aircraft, you had to identify what make it was and how far away it was. Cause guns we had were only effective at four hundred yards. Did you know that? You didn’t did you? They were Browning guns and they were only effective at four. And so that you wouldn’t cheat and lean forward they used to fasten your coat to the back of the chair, so you couldn’t go forward. Then at gunnery school we were, we were firing air to ground. There was a mixture of tanks, well there was the tanks on the ground and what we’d do, we’d take off, these were in Ansons, a different type of aeroplane, you fly down England, go to the targets were there, and this, with an instructor gunner and he kept saying hold your fire, you know I thought, and you go down - this was right on the edge of the coast where you would see - and you’d fly out to sea, turn round, come in and you come this way your guns would be on the other side then wouldn’t they, coming down there and he kept saying hold your fire and you’d come on and come on and you’d go out to sea at that end, turn round come back, he said this three or four times. I said what am I keep holding my bloody fire for? Then all of a sudden coming along there I heard the word fire so I let go and I was firing all of me bloody guns at target I could see the bullets ricocheting off all off ‘em all over and between the short bursts I could hear him bawling, ‘what the hell you doing? Can’t you see those bloody fellers putting that gun right?’ I just stopped in time or I’d have hit some of them, they were putting something, doing something to the model and that’s why he kept telling me hold your fire, they weren’t ready to be fired at, and I just heard, I just, all I heard was the word fire so like I just let go! Any more pet? [Laughter]
BE: The recent anniversary, at the unveiling of the Canadian pilot at St [unclear] George’s Hotel at Teesside Airport.
EP: This is only four or five, four years ago.
BE: Yes, but this guy that sat next to you how that came, and he had a silk worm.
EP: Well we had a Canadian Bomber come on the squadron, didn’t we, you know that, and it based at Middleton St George and I got chatting to this fellow, he flew from there and he -
[Other]: [Unclear]
EP: He had a caterpillar on his lapel, you know what that’s for don’t you? For using the parachute, the lad was saved with a parachute. You know and I’m chatting to him and apparently I was on the same raid as him that was on Hannover, not Hannover, Dortmund, and he was, I was, we lost fourteen bombers that night and he was in one of them, and I showed him, anyhow I pointed out in my log book and he was on that raid and he was there, that same night that I was on the same raid as him and I was down in Norfolk and he was flying from Middleton St George.
BE: And he was taken prisoner.
EP: And he was taken prisoner, weren’t he. He was, he was, good time he had as a prisoner. This is my proud, that’s it, and he didn’t have his log book because when you got shot down they take everything and you never see them. Well I’ve still got mine and anything in the papers mind I check it with this. You see that page there? It shows you Admiral von Scheer, there was a German pocket battleship, the Admiral von Sheer, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, that was three of them and they were all German battleships, they all got sunk you know. Our lads, hell of an aircraft, the Lancaster. I was thinking of buying one and I keep it in the garden.
BE: What about the story when you were demobbed and were sent to India?
EP: Oh, after the war I was recommended for a commission though after, be the same time we got a fortnight’s leave and we had to go back to the squadron and I, we decided get married and I got a wife and a fortnight’s extension of leave. And the [unclear] seven days granted you only got seven days, you had to go back. But this particular, we finished flying they give me seven, they give me a fortnight, and course while I was on leave at home I was bloody posted to another Pathfinder squadron and I never got me commission.
BE: It’s still out there waiting.
[Other]: Aw!
EP: I was a warrant officer.
BE: Where were you sent to in India?
EP: So instead of that, if I’d have taken a commission, you know when you get a commission in the RAF you get discharged and you’re brought in as an officer with a different number and you’ve got to do at least twelve month. But the war was over, I wanted out so I didn’t pursue it. I was going to pursue it, and it had gone a month, they’d mislaid it so I didn’t bother, I wanted out. But they sent me, I still ended up out in India. A place called Korangi Creek, near Karachi, I ended up out there. I was out there about ten month.
BE: And Keith was born, your son.
EP: And Keith was born there.
BE: No he wasn’t. He was born whilst you were out there.
EP: While I was out there. He was seven month old before I saw him. Nowaday they let you sit by their bed when they have babies, in the services. I tried to get out of it by reporting sick, it was the only time I ever reported sick in the RAF, had a hell of a cold, I’ve still got it, the same one, Friar’s balsam in a basin, with a towel over your head, breathe over it, you’re going to India and I still went out there. I ended up in flying control out there, in charge of flying control and it was there where I got a trip in a Catalina. That was a flying boat. But it -
BE: The incident with the boat and the paddle and you nearly died.
EP: We used to go fishing on the creek. If we caught anything we used to give it in to the mess, the sergeant’s mess. And this particular day, we took this little boat fishing and we couldn’t get back into put to shore because we, the current carried us out into the Indian Ocean. And do you know what the paddle was made out of? A lid off a tin of paint on the end of a brush and trying to get back and that and in the end the bloody launch takes, sees the aircraft, the Catalina’s off: they came to get us. But that was it.
BE: But how? How did you do it? How did you [unclear]
EP: I lifted it up, I just flicked it like that, and it flashed awhile on the shore and they saw it and they came out to get us, they knew we were in trouble. And when you get off the little boat off the creek onto the land, it’s like opening the oven door, it was that hot out there. Terrible.
BE: About your flying boots and your ammunition.
EP: Oh aye. With the flying boots we had on, when we went to squadron they issued us with a 38 revolver. We used to have to go on this range they had. In those days you used to fire like that, nowadays it’s like just two hands, isn’t it. You couldn’t hit anything with that so I brought the thing out and they used to give you a packet of ammunition. I used to empty the packet of bullets down my flying boot, so if I’d baled out the buggers would have dropped out wouldn’t they! [Laugh]
BE: What was the laminated thing you had if you came down and you had to say in Polish?
EP: We went, the Russians were and we had a, first time I’d ever came across plastic. We had a plastic thing round our necks with the union jack on it, and we had to say something - we are British airmen or something - and of course with the second navigator come, he knew Russian, he’d come, originating from Russia, he said, if you said it like what we had to say he said if we said it like that we will shoot you. [laughs] Couldn’t get your mouth round it, in case you had problems you’d be easier to fly on than land in Russia, come home. Long trip we did, like Kiel, some hot spots going over there. I can remember was a Mosquito squadron where we were and it landed was in daylight and we were going on the same raid as them, give ‘em a hand, and he said the flak’s that thick you can put your wheels down and ride across on it! [Laugh] Always remember that. Course they’re a wonderful aeroplane. You know that we were losing that many aircraft bombing Berlin, I wasn’t on any of them, I wasn’t qualified by then, we were losing so many they stopped going to Berlin as early as March 1944. We lost seventy bombers on the last raid on Berlin, but the Mossies were going, they could get up to thirty five thousand feet, they couldn’t reach ‘em and they’re the ones that carried the war on on Berlin, was the Mosquito, that’s a wonderful aeroplane it had this two engines, like the Lanc had four engines. And full tanks on the Lanc was two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallon, that was full tanks and we had six tanks. You took off on two and then you used the others – that was your flight engineer’s job to keep switching tanks for the pilot - and you landed on the same two you took off on, so you knew we had plenty of petrol.
BE: What did you write on?
EP: Eh?
BE: What did you write on?
EP: Write on what?
BE: When you were a wireless operator. You made your notes on something.
EP: As the wireless operator, all your information, frequencies and callsign and people it changed every six, every six hours and so you had to have two lots of information and it was all on rice paper and I used to tear a bit off the end and chew it, just to make sure, you had to, it changed. And I can always remember when the skipper was speaking to the main force, he used, they all had a callsign, and most of the time it was Press On, cause we used to say press on rewardless, and our callsign for base was, I’ve told you this haven’t I, was Off Strike, and you flew in your same aircraft all the time from Cut Out, that was the base call, and I’ve got a piece of lino in the garage now with those callsigns in chalk, still on a piece of lino. Would you like to see that?
BE: Love to after the interview.
[Other]: And what about the reunion mum went to with you in the Royal Albert Hall and Bennett was there and you did a present -
EP: That was the Lancaster Hotel that.
[Other]: Oh right. And you presented Bennett with the scroll.
EP: Oh, that’s right.
[Other]: And mum said there wasn’t a dry eye in the house.
EP: Mum went, and Don Bennett was there as well because he was the boss of Pathfinders, and there was dancing and all that. Do you remember Kenneth Wolstenholme what used to be on the television? He was there and he was dancing with your mum, when he met Kenneth Wolstenholme and was it Benson that -
[Other]: It was a reunion, long after the war.
EP: Yeah. Bennett gave a speech to all the lads that, they were all ex-Pathfinder aircraft crew. The thing he said it made everyone emotional didn’t it.
[Other]: And mum said there wasn’t a dry eye in the house and everyone stood up -
EP: That’s true.
[Other]: To acknowledge him. Yeah.
BE: He was our boss. That was where he put his arm -
[Other]: Must have been the seventies, dad.
EP: He was the one that put his arm over Boris’s shoulder, you know, you called, shouted bugger off. Oh, he said, I expected to be taken outside and shot. He said there’s no one in the RAF told an Air Marshal to bugger off! True story that!
BE: Brilliant. Do you want to stop now? Yeah.
EP: Have a cup of tea.
BE: Thank you very much. It’s been absolutely brilliant. I’ve loved all the stories, they were absolutely great. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ernie Patterson. Two
Creator
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Beth Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-01-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APattersonGE190126, PPattersonGE1901
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:08:37 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Before joining the Royal Air Force on 4 February 1942, Ernie worked as an apprentice joiner. On being called up he went to Blackpool for training, which included Morse code. Following training at different places he then attended the advanced flying school. After travelling to RAF Abingdon for crewing up they trained on Whitleys and then Halifaxes. From there they went to RAF Downham Market to train on Pathfinders. Ernie was transferred to another crew to replace their wireless operator who had been killed. When flying, members of the crew each had a ration of six boiled sweets, a handful of raisins, a packet of chewing gum and a block of chocolate. He explained about dinghy training. Ernie recall an operation when they had a recall to bomb Osnabrück; another squadron did aa operation to Nuremberg and lost 95 bombers in that one night. The crew did a daylight operation on Nuremberg and they were escorted back by two Mustangs. Ernie remembers buying a Morris Minor from a colleague and describes the mishaps he had due to its poor brakes. Ernie met his wife at a dance at the Corn Exchange in Wisbech. His son was born while he was posted in India. He had 350 flying hours in Lancasters, 250 of which were operational. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal a Pathfinder Award Badge. At the end of the war he was offered a commission but didn’t take it as he wanted to return to civilian life.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
England--Norfolk
England--Oxfordshire
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Nuremberg
England--Wisbech
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Durham (County)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-02-04
635 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
ditching
FIDO
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
Master Bomber
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
P-51
Pathfinders
RAF Abingdon
RAF Downham Market
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Rufforth
RAF Stanton Harcourt
RAF Yatesbury
superstition
target indicator
training
Whitley
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1414/28326/MWareingR86325-161005-83.2.jpg
0d9892be587ff1a64a9f65dd667417ea
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wareing, Robert
R Wareing
Description
An account of the resource
258 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Robert Wareing DFC* (86325 Royal Air Force) and contains his flying logbooks, prisoner of war log book, memoirs, photographs, extensive personal and official correspondence, official documents, pilots/handling notes, decorations, mementos, uniform badges and buttons. He flew operations as a pilot with 106 Squadron. After a period of instructing he returned to operations on 582 Squadron but was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Andrew Wareing and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wareing, R
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Path Finder badge certificate
Description
An account of the resource
Award of path finder badge to Acting Squadron Leader R Wareing DFC
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
D Bennett
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-08-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MWareingR86325-161005-83
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1414/28327/MWareingR86325-161005-84.1.jpg
1ac88dd9f5fc6ffb6da90fe1fff10ee1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wareing, Robert
R Wareing
Description
An account of the resource
258 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Robert Wareing DFC* (86325 Royal Air Force) and contains his flying logbooks, prisoner of war log book, memoirs, photographs, extensive personal and official correspondence, official documents, pilots/handling notes, decorations, mementos, uniform badges and buttons. He flew operations as a pilot with 106 Squadron. After a period of instructing he returned to operations on 582 Squadron but was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Andrew Wareing and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wareing, R
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Headquarters,
Path Finder Force,
Royal Air Force.
19 th June, 1944
To:
Squadron Leader R. Wareing (86325)
[underlined] AWARD OF PATH FINDER FORCE BADGE [/underlined]
You have to-day qualified for the award of the Path Finder Force Badge and are entitled to wear the Badge as long as you remain in the Path Finder Force.
2. You will not be entitled to wear the Badge after you leave the Path Finder Force without a further written certificate from me authorising you to do so.
[signature]
Air Vice-Marshal, Commanding
Path Finder Force.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Note to Robert Wareing from Air Vice Marshall D Bennett
Description
An account of the resource
Award of path finder force badge, Qualified and entitled to wear badge.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
D Bennett
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-06-19
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page printed letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MWareingR86325-161005-84
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jan Waller
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1770/31049/BCleggPVLangAGv10019.2.jpg
1d0c0944df6a16ec9ee482f2cc95904e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clegg, Peter Vernon. Lang, Alastair - folder
Description
An account of the resource
Fifteen items. Contains description of the terrible three, a biography of Squadron Leader Alastair Lang DFC, photographs, a portrait, details of his flight engineer, operational diary, correspondence, newspaper cuttings and extracts from his log book.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-02
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Clegg, PV
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Headquarters,
Path Finder Force,
Royal Air Force.
14th March, 1943.
Dear Lang
I should like to offer you heartiest congratulations on your Distinguished Flying Cross which is well merited, and adds further laurels to No. 156 Squadron.
Yours,
[signature]
Flight Lieutenant A.G. Lang D.F.C.
No. 156 Squadron,
Royal Air Force Station,
[underlined]WARBOYS[/underlined]
[two newspaper cuttings]
On award of the D.F.C. to Fl/Lt. Lang.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Donald Bennett to Alastair Lang and two newspaper cuttings
Description
An account of the resource
Top - newspaper cutting mentioning Lang's award of DFC.
Middle - letter congratulates him on award of Distinguished Flying Cross.
Bottom - newspaper cutting announcing award of DFC to Flight Lieutenant Alastair Grant Lang.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
D Bennett
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-03-14
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photocopied sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BCleggPVLangAGv10019
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Huntingdonshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-03-14
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
156 Squadron
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Distinguished Flying Cross
RAF Warboys
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1825/33676/SBrennanJ1210913v20002-0001.1.jpg
ab806805329064609cac82cee7a05082
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brennan, Jack
John Brennan
J Brennan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Brennan, J
Description
An account of the resource
Twenty-four items.
The collection concerns Sergeant John Brennan DFM (1210913 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book as well as documents including a Goldfish Club certificate, notes from station and squadron operational record book with details of activities and operations, memoirs, newspaper cuttings and correspondence. In addition, contains operation order and other details for 617 Squadron's attack of German dams on 16/17 May 1943.
He flew operations as a wireless operator with 102 and 35 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by T Noble and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Headquarters,
Path Finder Force,
Royal Air Force.
11th October 1943.
To:-
1210913 Sergeant Brennan J.
[underlined] AWARD OF PATH FINDER FORCE BADGE [/underlined]
You have today qualified for the award of the Path Finder Force Badge and are entitled to wear the Badge as long as you remain in the Path Finder Force.
2. You will not be entitled to wear the Badge after you leave the Path Finder Force without a further written authority from me entitling you to do so.
[signature]
Air Commodore, Commanding
[underlined] Path Finder Force. [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Award of Pathfinder badge
Description
An account of the resource
Letter to Sergeant Brennan stating that he was now entitled to wear Pathfinder badge.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
D C Bennett
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-10-11
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-11
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page typewritten letter
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SBrennanJ1210913v20002-0001
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/559/8826/PStephensonS1608.1.jpg
52f47ebba3be09356c1defc18313a953
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/559/8826/AStephensonS160315.2.mp3
0b67961bc8438304de61a0d561cc6db6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stephenson, Stuart
Stuart Stephenson MBE
S Stephenson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stephenson, S
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. An oral history interview with Stuart Stephenson MBE, Chairman of the Lincs-Lancaster Association, and issues of 5 Group News.
The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, some items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: So, this is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. My name is Dan Ellin, I am interviewing Stuart Stephenson MBE, it is the 15th of the third 2016, we’re in Lincoln at his home address and it is twenty past one. So Stuart, can you tell me some of your earliest memories to do with —
SS: I was obviously born in 1935, which meant that when war broke out I was five-ish. When I was six-ish, I think it would be — in 1941 I think — my father had gone in the Army, I was at home with my mother and sister. We lived in Boston, it was the middle of the year so it was very light early in the morning and we heard a low-flying aircraft of some sort. We slept downstairs because of the bombing, had black-out curtains, I leapt out of bed, I went to the front window, whipped the blackout curtains. To my amazement, in front of me crossing the road from behind to in front, was a very low flying German twin-engined aircraft with a, with a gun turret that pointed its guns down the road, and they fired down the road across as, as we were coming, as they went over. I later discovered that they was actually shooting at a lorry that was parked up the side of the road, and I seem to remember it belonged to a gentleman called Mr Ingoldmells, who was one of the very few haulage drivers in the area at that time. A month or two later, when there was heavy rain, next door but one — a Mr Parker — he said his spouts were overflowing with water, so he got a ladder and he climbed up, and I was lucky enough to be presented with a whole handful of spent German cannon, ammunition shells, cartridge shells that he’d rescued from his gutters. I don’t know what happened to those but this was at Boston. As the, within a couple, maybe a few months — it was a Saturday morning and there was my mum was talking to the lady next door across the fence, and there was an aircraft up there droning away, and I came out and I was looking up in the sky, and I could just see this dot. Little dot of an aircraft. And I watched it and the women talked on, and suddenly, something fell off it, and I said to the women, I said, ‘Look mum. There’s something fallen off that plane’. ‘Stuart, don’t interrupt, we’re talking. It’s rude to interrupt’. And I’m watching this coming down, and I’m saying, ‘No. Look, it’s coming down. Look’, and I finally got them to stop talking, and I looked and I saw this thing coming down and it was getting closer and closer and closer, and I wonder what’s happened. And it fell behind the house, maybe a quarter of a mile away, near a place, a tower, Rochford Tower Hall it was called. Rochford Tower. There was an enormous explosion, at which point we decided it was a bomb, but to our, to my amazement, as a child I saw a row of very large trees. I saw some of these trees flung up in the air with a massive bang and bits coming down all over the place. The two women — ‘Stuart, get in the house’, and we immediately, I immediately, ‘I don’t want to go in the house. The plane’. ‘No, you’ve got to go in the house. We have to get under the table in the kitchen’. Having been under the table for five minutes and I wanted to go outside again to see what was going on, but the plane had droned away to the east and lo and behold, the air raid warning went, which, which encouraged my interest in aviation. Later we moved away from Boston. My father was in the Army and he was stationed near Bakewell in Derbyshire, so we moved to Bakewell and I went to school at Bakewell for a time, and I well remember, and people that have been to Bakewell who will remember the street. The street sort of divides, the main street divides two as you go towards the bridge over the river, it divides into two, with a sort of building in the middle, which was the main one in front of you was the Post Office. And we were waiting to cross the road, there was little traffic, but there was a lot of women and a lot of kids, and they were all talking and I was that bit older then, and suddenly, there’s a strange whistling noise, and there’s women looking up and I’m looking up, because I’m thinking, ‘Oh this is another aeroplane’, and to everybody’s amazement this plane flew over. Well, they all thought it was going to crash because it’s got no propellers on it and it’s, it’s going to crash. And it didn’t crash, but it flew straight over and the panic was gone, and they was all saying, ‘Shhhh. You’ll hear a bang in a minute when it hits the ground’, or something, but it didn’t and it went away. And again, I’m not sure what year, I have a feeling this would be maybe 1944, but by what I recall, there was only the meteor that was flying at that time, and that was my first introduction to a jet. I went to school of course in Boston, I went to school elsewhere. Eventually, having sort of grown up into my twenties, I was still interested in aircraft and the time came in the 1970s when a Lancaster came back to Waddington, and this was PA474 which is currently with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. This aircraft had been recovered from Henlow by 44 Squadron, who had been given the task to, by their CO to locate a Lancaster to bring to Waddington as a gate guardian. They, they had struggled to find a Lancaster and by chance, one of the officers, who I won’t mention but I know him very well, he spotted this Lancaster through a hole in the hedge at Henlow, and it was sitting in a grass field with a Lincoln standing beside it, which the Lincoln was the later development of the Lancaster. 44 Squadron then having made some enquiries, it was discovered that it belonged to the Air Historical Branch of PA4. Well both aircraft did. They, they sent a working party to go out to have a look at it, to ascertain whether it was — how much it would take to dismantle it to bring it, to road it back to Waddington basically, in bits. The ground crew that went to look at it — they’d all been ex-Lancaster ground crew types during the war, because the gap was comparatively short between the two and they were coming up to retirement age. Anyway, they spent several weekends down there and they would go on a Saturday morning or a Friday night with a tent, sleep in a tent under the aircraft, and work on it on the Sunday, doing whatever checks they had to do. After a time, it was decided that it was better than they thought, it might be. So they, they decided that they would take a bowser and put some petrol in it or fuel in it, and see if they could get it to run. Bearing in mind the engines hadn’t been inhibited or anything, it was just standing there. So anyway, they went and then they got this fuel and put in to it, and within another week or two, they suddenly got four engines running. So at this stage, the commandant of Henlow — a college I believe it was, or air, air base — he came along and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ and they said that there was, they’d got permission to move this back to Waddington. So he said, ‘Well we thought — we had this message but we understood you were going to dismantle it and take it by road’, and they said, ‘Well we’ve checked it over, and we decided that it, it is a runner. So it is going to take an awful long time to dismantle it and we’ve got to bring cranes and fittings up here to do it, so we will come and we will hopefully fly it back’. So he was somewhat upset by this, because he wasn’t expecting them to say this and this meant he’d got to make a decision I suppose, but anyway the decision was made that yes, they could fly it back but on one must-not-do. ‘When you take off, you must not fly over the college buildings. The airfield buildings. You must go away from the airfield and the base, so if the wings fall off it, you’ll not fall on to the —’ So anyway, they duly reached that stage. They found a pilot who I believe was a Polish gentleman, they then began to look at the field itself. Working parties were brought to walk the field to fill in holes and generally check it over. They spent several weekends doing this, and the day came when it was to go, so they — it was crewed up and they did all the engine run ups and all the usual pre-flight checks, and off they went across the grass, gathering speed. Reached the point of tail up, and lo and behold, there was a hole in the ground, which they think it was maybe a fox had dug. But our Lancaster hit this and it, with one jerk, it was airborne. The pilot gathered it and kept it flying and it duly flew back to Waddington. I believe the navigator, it was claimed the navigator made a slight error, because the press were waiting at Waddington, and it didn’t initially go back to Waddington. It made a circle around and flew over Scampton, who’d got R5868, which is now in the RAF museum as their gate guardian, with a sort of two fingers up sign, ‘We’ve got one that flies at Waddington’. Anyway, that was done and he duly came in to land at Waddington. So I was told that the press were there in great numbers, and it was all very exciting. He came in to land, and it was one of those landings where he touched down and then took off again, and he touched down and then he took off again. The camera lenses were seen to be going up and down with the long lenses on the cameras, and it duly came to a standstill. Taxied around and was, the engines were switched off and it was back at Waddington. It was only then that they learned that the pilot, who was Polish, he was a test pilot for, I believe it was English Electric in those days, and he was a test pilot flying Canberras, and he’d basically landed it — done a Canberra landing in a Lancaster, which a Canberra has a nose wheel and it lands on a nose wheel configuration that, it doesn’t sit with its tail up or anything. It goes down, whereas the attitude of a Lanc is completely different. Had they known they wouldn’t have let him fly it but — because there were other pilots who were qualified to fly in that, that format of a tail wheel aircraft. We, we were living at Bracebridge Heath and for a year nothing happened. The Lancaster went in the hangar and it was thought that it was being prepared as the gate guardian, however, it then appeared on the airfield from time to time and were doing engine runs and then it, it occasionally took to the air, and it was very pleasant to sit in one’s front garden and see a Lancaster, or have it fly over, virtually over your head, fairly low. At a time when there wasn’t another one in the world flying, the Canadian one was not flying at that stage, and gradually the flying time that it was putting in was increased, and then it sort of appeared at Biggin Hill or Farnborough, and this was really building into something. The officer commanding RAF Waddington, the group captain, he tended to fly it, I think his name was Stanley, along with several others who were qualified to fly that aircraft type. The time went on, and having extended it then the — it was taken for granted by the population that it would stay at Waddington, and that was it, and we were all quite happy. And then suddenly, it was in the Lincolnshire Echo in 1973 that Waddington’s Lancaster was to be moved to RAF Coltishall in Norfolk. Obviously, there was a great deal of muttering and everything, because the thought was, why take the bomber away from where it was, came into service, because Waddington was the very first Lancaster station where it was introduced in ‘41. Anyway, it was duly — something had to be done. A letter appeared, or a piece appeared, in the Lincolnshire Echo, and it said that there’s a Mrs Buttery who had written a piece and made a statement to the Echo, to say that there should be some effort made to retain this Lancaster in the county. It belonged to the county, it didn’t belong on a fighter station. Anybody interested, would they please contact her. I went and contacted her on the, this was on a Friday, I contacted her on the Monday morning at work, which was the only address she gave which was in Guildhall Street opposite the old Post Office in those days. I was the first one there and I introduced myself, and her name was Hilda and we got on very well. There was various other people turned up as the next week or two went on, and we gradually sort of came together. Alderman and Frank Eccleshare decided that there was public interest in this and he would form a — there would be a meeting held in Lincoln for everybody that was interested to come and have their say. So, needless to say, our little group had got together. We called ourselves the Lincolnshire Lancaster Committee, because we was just a committee, we weren’t thinking of anything else. We, we went to the meeting which was well attended. There was a thing in those days on the radio at lunchtime that — Jimmy Young who was a broadcaster, broadcast every day, and if you’d got a problem, he would, I’ll say fix it, but nothing to do with the fix it that we all hate today. However, I wrote to Jimmy Young, and this was before the meeting, and I said this is a problem, and to explain that the local population didn’t want this aircraft moving and, ‘Go on Jimmy. Fix it’. I received a nice buff pre-printed card from the BBC to say Mr Young will — is looking in to this and he’ll be in touch. It’s now forty-three, forty-four years since I got that card and I’m still waiting for his reply. He didn’t come back to us. However, the meeting was held and various — we stood up and made our piece, and amongst the people in the audience, a gentleman stood up who I, we got to know quite well, his name was Eric, Eric Gledhill. I’m sure anybody that knew Eric will not be upset when I say that Eric, he was a crew chief, he was obviously, I don’t know, flight sergeant I guess in those days, but he had what we called a lavatory brush hairstyle. His hair was spiky and it looked very much like a lavatory brush. Eric stood up. ‘I’m the crew chief that looks after this Lancaster, and I can assure you, it will not fly for another couple of years, then it’s going to be on the ground. It can’t go on, it’s on its last legs and this would be the end. So we’ve got two years to try to do something’. Anyway, the, the meeting ended, and we decided that we’d got to sort of try to put a mark on this aircraft, to try to get it kept in to Lincolnshire. So again. I’d had the idea that the Lincoln City, the mayor and his, his attendants were very often seen in the local newspaper in the, in the ward room of the then HMS Lincoln and having the odd drinkies, and so I thought, well if they, this was Lincoln’s adopted warship and I thought, ‘Well come on, Lincoln shouldn’t be adopting a warship, they should be adopting a bomber’. So, I brought this up at the committee meeting and said, ‘Look, we should be making advances to the council to get the bomber adopted’. Our chair lady, she knew the mayor and the message was passed to the mayor, and the council looked at it and the question, I believe, was asked, ‘What’s it going to cost to do this?’ And the answer came back, ‘Very little’., and they seemed to like that idea, and so it was arranged that the, the aircraft would be adopted. It was duly adopted. I’m sorry, I can’t remember the date exactly but it coincided with a visit from 463, 467 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force, their big reunion. They were coming over to, to Waddington for this event and they were duly to be treated with full ceremony, and the adoption would be on the same day as they came to see the Lancaster. I said, again I raised at the committee that if, if we’re going to have it adopted, we should ask that they put the Lincoln City badge on to the nose of the aircraft to illustrate to all and sundry that it was Lincoln City, Lincoln City’s aircraft. This was agreed, that would be done, and the RAF were contacted and they were warm to the idea. I learned later that we’d actually asked just for the badge, but I learned, I learned later that the, this was came in after it’s been moved to Coltishall. But they, they sent somebody from Coltishall, an officer came from Coltishall to Lincoln with a camera, to get a photograph of the Lincoln City badge. Of course, today it would be done by email and it would be in a flash, but he came to Lincoln and he wandered about the city, I’m told, looking for the badge. And in the end, he saw the badge on the side of a Lincoln City Corporation bus, and it had the Fleur de Lys coat of arms. Below it was, in gothic script, “City of Lincoln”, so he took a photograph of this, took it back to Coltishall. It was duly, it was hand painted on to the aircraft by a gentleman who was an expert in this type of work. He had not understood what was asked of him, so he painted the badge very nicely and he’d put City of Lincoln underneath it, which was an idea that we hadn’t have thought of but it was better than we’d thought of, so we got this thrown in as a bonus. So she had a very large badge on her nose in those days, with City of Lincoln in gothic script, and that was put on the nose then. She’s been repainted several times, but it was made, it was officially pronounced that this aircraft was named City of Lincoln, and it would remain that. Whatever paint job they put on it, that would remain on it, and it’s still on it today, although in reduced size on the opposite side to where it was first put on. Coming back to the, the Australian visit, this was a remarkable event, because they, they came to us and they said that — I live in Waddington village — these Australians were coming over and would — when they came to Waddington during the war, there was not enough space for them to live on the camp, so they were billeted out throughout the village. People took them into their homes, the aircrew, which was very traumatic for some because obviously, they didn’t all come back. However, all these years later they’re coming again. ‘Would you like to take a chap and his wife for a week while they’re over here?’ So we said, ‘Yes, we would’, and we were duly allocated, if that’s the right word, the gentleman. Buchan comes to mind. He was the gentleman that flew the Lanc that flew the longest mission ever, when he flew back and he, the BB for the royal aircraft or the Crown Film Unit, to film the Tallboys going down on the Tirpitz, that finally sank the Tirpitz — that’s a famous bit of footage. He was told - they were told they were flying back to Lossiemouth. He said — stuff Lossiemouth or words to that thing, and he would fly back. ‘I didn’t want to go there, I want to come back to Waddington’, so he flew back to Waddington, landed and I don’t — he hardly had enough fuel to get back to his dispersal, it was sucking air. So I was looking forward to, to this visit, because it was obviously somebody that was very interesting to me and I was liking to talk to him, however, at the last minute, unfortunately his lady wife got ill and he couldn’t come, so we had it changed around and lo and behold, I got a fella and his wife called Bill Berry. Bill was a — not a tall man, shall we put it like that, and he was very nice and he talked in a real dinkum Australian accent. That was very good, fitted the Bill Hancock’s Half Hour voice very nicely. They came to stay with us, and of course, we talked. Now, he said to me, he said, ‘Do you know, Stuart’, he said, ‘My best mate ever’, he said, ‘He lived here, he lived in Lincolnshire. He was a farmer’, he said, ‘And we used to go shooting with an old car with the headlights and’, he said, ‘It was a marvellous time between flying’. And he said, ‘I’ve lost touch with him’, and he said, ‘I’ve no idea. I can’t remember where he lived now’. So I said, ‘What was his name then?’ So he said, ‘His name was John Chatterton’. I said, ‘I know John Chatterton’. ‘You don’t’. I said, ‘I do’. So he said, ‘Well blow me down’, or words to that effect, so he said, ‘Can we make contact?’ I said, ‘Well hang on a minute’, so I got up and I dial the number, and he answered, and I said, ‘Hello John. Is that you?’ So he said, ‘Yeah, it is. What do you want Stu?’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got an old mate of yours here’, I said, ‘Who wants to talk to you’, so he said, ‘Have you? Who’s that?’ I said, ‘Does the word Bill Berry mean anything to you?’ ‘Bugger me’, he says, ‘I can’t believe it, put him on’. So they talked, and it was agreed that within the next night or two, they’d, they’d come together in our lounge at Waddington, to meet after all these years, and it was a suitably emotional evening and they brought their logbooks with them. And of course, I’d known John Chatterton for quite a while, his son, Mike Chatterton, was, I believe, at that time currently the Lancaster pilot with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. So, Bill, he said this was fantastic and they compared log books, and I wish I’d had Dan’s recording machine with me because they were going through all these anecdotes and comparing one night. Where did you go on so and so, and so and so? ‘I went to Dusseldorf that night’. ‘How long was you there? How long was you airborne for?’ ‘I was airborne for three hours twenty minutes’. If you like. ‘No, no. What was you messing about at? We did it in three hours and ten minutes’, and there was a lot of verbal going on like that. So they came, after they’d ceased, they’d done their ops and they went to Syerston together as instructors, and they told me a little story. He said they were in the crew room at Syerston, and he said it was, had been a horrible few days and there had been no flying, and there was a lot of blokes hanging about and we were waiting for the weather to lift. The cloud base was still fairly low but it was going up slowly, and he said, ‘We were there’, he said, ‘And we were bored and’, he said, ‘Suddenly, John Chatterton stood up and he said, ‘Right, my lot, we’re going flying’. ‘Are you’re going flying?’ ‘Yes, I’m going flying. I can’t stand this any longer’. So they got up, and they went charging off to their aircraft, and fifteen, twenty minutes later it taxies out on to the runway, comes trundling down the runway, and they all go outside to watch it go past, and it goes past, and it’s — if you look at a map of Syerston, you will see that the River Trent is at the far end of the runway. So he goes, this is Bill telling this story, and he said, ‘He goes down the runway and his tail wheel’s up, but he’s not, his main wheels are still on the ground, and he gets to the end of the runway and he disappears in to the Trent, and we thought, ‘Oh my God, he’s crashed’. So there was bicycles, there was people running, there was vehicles, there was fire engines, they were all, they were all charging down to the end of the runway to see the wreckage in the Trent and hope these fellas are still alive, and he said, ‘We got there expecting to see oil on the water and all sorts of wreckage. Nothing. There’s no marks on anywhere. We can’t — we’re looking around. We can’t believe. Where is he? He’s vanished. It’s magic’. And he said, ‘We just stood there and then we heard a sound, and it was Merlin engines and’, he said, ‘They were, they were behind us and he turned around, and here’s this Lanc coming at ground level and its straight for us, and we all threw ourselves flat, and he comes almost through the middle of us and then climbed up and went away’. And he said, ‘that was John Chatterton, and somehow he’d managed to turn to starboard or port, whichever one it was, and he’d managed to get away without us realising where he’d gone and he’d gone around the back of us, and we was all, we’d all been covered in mud. We’d all thrown ourselves flat on the ground and, and,’ he said, ‘That was a moment I remember’ And I looked at John Chatterton, who’d got, I’m sure if he was here, he would agree with him, Mike would agree with him, that he had a baby face. He looked a rounded baby-faced chap, and I said to John, I said, ‘John, would you do a thing like that?’ And he said, ‘Stu, could you imagine me doing anything like that?’ I said, ‘Yes’. So there was laughter and that was a moment to remember, but I put that, I was lucky to be there with these two guys to hear all these stories, and what a pity. There was a lot more I can’t remember, but there was a lot was forgotten forever I’m afraid because I couldn’t record it.
DE: Sure.
SS: The, the story. I think I’ll have to pause now a minute if you don’t mind.
DE: Ok.
[Recording paused]
DE: Right, so we’re recording again. There we go.
SS: The Lancaster moved to Coltishall but she’s crewed by aircrew from Waddington and Scampton. Jacko Jackson had been allegated to, allegated, is that the right word? Allocated as officer commanding the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight in 1972. I believe that’s correct although the thing at the Battle of Britain Flight might tell you wrong. But —
DE: People can find that out. Yeah.
SS: I’ve got it on. They don’t know at Coningsby yet, I’ve not been over since I found out. I’ve a letter from, inviting me to Jacko’s leaving party, and Jacko was, it says in there when he was made officer commanding. I’ve got it in the other room but we can find that out in a minute. Anyway, this was causing them a lot of problems, because they were having to travel by coach to Coltishall and back again at weekends, in all the seaside traffic because it’s a very busy road. This was wrong. We’d been petitioning to the, well the Lancaster Committee we’d, we’d had fun and games. We didn’t realise it but when the Lanc was about to leave Waddington for the very last time, one of our members, who wouldn’t admit doing it but we know he did, he went around all the local pubs where the airmen gather, and he put around these stories that these freaks at Lincoln were going to go to Waddington and they were going to sit on the runway to stop them flying the Lanc out. Well, bearing in mind, Lincoln was, Waddington was a Vulcan base much connected with the Cold War, and the nuclear weapons that were stored thereabouts so the RAF didn’t want a lot of people on the airfield, and the Echo put out statements from the RAF that no public person would be allowed on the, on to the camp while this was taking place. And this was all to be sorted. Come the day, there was police galore in land rovers, patrolling the Sleaford Road. There was more dogs than, than you’ve ever seen. I think they’d brought extra people in from other bases. There was a lot of people on the roadside along there, but there was no trouble and it flew out, and that was the end of the story, but there was a little, little bit of a kink in the tale of it all, that before it went, they’d had a press thing to let the press come on the airfield through the guardroom to take photos and interview the captain and whatever. One of our committee members — he’d got, he’d been driving around the camp, he usually carried about six cameras around his neck, he, he noticed that there was a group of press people gathered in a little group near the guardroom, so he left his car quickly in the officer’s mess car park, walked across to the guardroom and just joined up with these newspapermen. Within minutes a coach appeared, they all gathered on the coach. Nobody checked who they were. They all got on the coach, they were all taken onto the airfield, to the aircraft, and they all took it in turns to get in the aircraft. Well the captain on that day was, we called him Uncle Ken but his name was Squadron Leader Ken Sneller, who was the nicest man you could ever wish to meet, and of course, he knew Trevor, who was the guy that had smuggled himself in, and it came to Trevor’s turn to get in the aircraft to take pictures. And he duly clambered in and came up to the front end, clambered over the main spar to, to see Uncle Ken there. Uncle Ken said, ‘What are you doing here?’ And he said, ‘Don’t tell anybody. I’m a, I’m a spy got on the airfield where nobody’s supposed to be getting’, so he duly took photographs in the cockpit and that was, that was that little moment of when we had the last laugh, but nobody in the RAF knew it had happened. The, the story about the Australians that I repeated a little earlier, that happened a few years later, after the aircraft had been at Coltishall for a time.
DE: Yeah.
SS: So, so it’s not out of context.
DE: That’s fine. Thank you.
SS: The, the time went by and we started collecting signatures to get the aircraft brought back to Waddington, or to Lincolnshire. I think we — but we thought it would be Waddington. We gathered signatures, within a matter of, I think it was fifteen weeks, we got some nineteen — seventeen to nineteen thousand signatures, including every MP except the MP for Grimsby — Mr Crossland who refused to sign. Everybody else would sign for it, signed the petition. From Australia came signatures like Hughie Edwards, who was a VC from Bomber Command’s earlier years. A lot of famous people signed. A meeting was arranged and we met the minister for the Royal Air Force who was — Labour were in power at the time, a little Welsh gentleman called Mr Brynmor John, and an appointment was made for him to meet us at Swinderby, which was a very active RAF station in those days. We were told we would meet at, in the officer’s mess at Swinderby at 2.15 I think it was, and he would have to be leaving by 2.35, so we weren’t given very long to make our point to him. We duly got all the signatures bundled up and tied up with red ribbon, and Mrs Buttery, who was chairman, she came and she made a speech and photographs were taken, and we talked to the minister. It was noticed a little bit later that the group captain in the background who was, I think it was Group Captain Green, I’m not sure, but he seemed very agitated and he kept looking at his watch, and he was pacing up and down, and we were talking to the minister and the minister was talking back to us, and the time schedule that they’d set went completely wrong. I don’t know what happened to his — where he was going after he finished with us, but he ended up about an hour late. Anyway, the bottom line, we got the promise that they would look at it but they couldn’t make any promises and it was wait and see, which we really thought we were just being fobbed off to be honest. Within a few months, Jacko Jackson had taken over. He was then OC of the Battle of Britain flight at Coltishall and Jacko came to me and he said, ‘Stuart, I’ve got some news for you but this is, this is something that is so hush hush that you’re not — you can tell the committee, but you’re not to tell anybody outside the committee, and it’s not to get out because this information will have to be released by the ministry or the Royal Air Force. Not by — not come from outside. So you’ve got to, before I tell, you’ve got to tell me that you’ll make sure that you’ll not pass it on other to those that are sworn to secrecy’. So I said, ‘Yes Jacko, I’ll do what I can. I’m sure they’ll —’ Anyway, we duly had a meeting, I’d made a little bit of a gesture beforehand and we had, I think it was two or three bottles of champagne were put on the table at the meeting, and the rest didn’t know what it was all about, and there was three bottles of champagne or whatever and some glasses and, ‘Well? What have you got? Tell us’. So I said, ‘Well the story is that I’ve been told that the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight are going move back lock stock and barrel because we’d lost the Lancaster. We were now going to get the Lancaster complete with Spitfires and Hurricanes returned to the county but unfortunately, it wouldn’t be to Waddington. It would be to Coningsby. The reason why it’s not to Coningsby, we discovered later, er why it’s not at Waddington, we discovered later was the fact that the Waddington, the group that controlled Waddington in those days, were a different group that covered Coningsby. Our group at Waddington had given the Lanc to the other group where the Merlin spares were, and so that other group were not prepared to give the whole of the Battle of Britain Flight back to the group that it had — the Lanc had come from. So, it went to Coningsby. So in due course, all the aircraft came back to Coningsby and of course, this made them within much closer range and LLA — oh we’d gone through the ritual war dance of setting, of A) stopping being a committee any more. Becoming an Association, because people was wanting to, to join up. We had a thing going to raise the money, and have the deflection can made, so that it could put the upper turret on to the Lancaster, because in those days, she was a flat back and it was missing this mid-upper turret which they’d got. It had been sent from Argentina by the Royal Navy, it arrived at Tilbury docks or somewhere, and the phone call was sent to Waddington. ‘We’ve got a big crate here for you Waddington. Do you want to come and fetch it?’ ‘What is it?’ ‘It’s from the Argentine Air Force and it’s a piece of a Lancaster’. So it was fetched but they couldn’t fit it, because it was, they didn’t have the metal work to fix around it, to stop the guns from pointing in to the —shooting the tail fins off or shooting the back of the cockpit, so we — they came to us. And they said, ‘Would you like to — could you get this made?’ So we said, ‘Yeah, well of course. Why not?’ So again, our chairman, she had contacts within the engineering companies in Lincoln, which in those days were very big, and the plans were brought to us. She went off to see them and they’d agreed. ‘Yes, we’ll do that’, but when they saw the plans, because not only is this a strange shape but it tapers as the, as the fuselage narrows, as it goes down towards the tail, they suddenly decided they’d got too much work to do with oil rigs and they couldn’t, they couldn’t do it. So it was eventually came back. She said, ‘Well I’m sorry, I’ve failed with Lincoln completely. Anybody else got any ideas?’ So I said, ‘Well I was’, my task, I was an insurance broker, so I said, ‘Well I’ve got a company that I deal with in Grimsby called Marionette Engineering. I’ll talk to Peter Wild’, who was the boss who I’d known, again, for some years. I went and saw Peter, and I said, ‘Pete, I’ve got these plans. Can you, can your lot make this?’ They, the Marionam Engineering — basically their role was repairing trawlers that came back with damage, which is a bit, slight heavier metal than is used on an aircraft, so he looked at it and he said, ‘Well I don’t know Stu’, and made all sorts of — anyway I seem to have got this ability to keep talking non-stop, and I talked him — eventually he agreed to it, on the basis that it was to shut me up. I took the plans to them which, I’m sorry, which I’d got and he said, ‘Well come back in a month and see how, how we’re going on’, so I said, ‘Alright, but I bet you’ll have forgotten about it as soon as I’ve gone out the door’. ‘No I won’t, I daren’t face another barrage like I’ve had’. So I went back a month later and there, laid on the factory floor, was a large sheet of metal, which must have been measuring about twelve to fifteen foot square. A huge square. And upon it was spot welded various pieces of metal with the tops cut off at funny angles, and it represented something like a thing that you’d expect in one of these Indian type gentlemen who climb ropes and eat fire, that he would lay on a bed of nails. It looked like one of those. So, he, I said, ‘Well, I’m sorry. I think you’ve got that wrong haven’t you? Because it doesn’t make any sense’. ‘Oh we’ll make sense of it to you’, and he whistled up some of the fellas and they brought brown paper out and they draped brown paper around all these things, and suddenly it made the shape of what’s wanted, with the hole in the middle and it was, and suddenly it made sense. And I said, ‘Well that’s marvellous. I don’t know how you’ve done that’. ‘No, I don’t really’, he said, ‘But we’re trying’. Anyway, the, the flight had moved then, had moved back to Coningsby, and it came the day when this, this piece of metal would be transported to Coningsby to be fitted on the aircraft and of course, I went to watch this happen, and the lorry appeared from, from Grimsby. And the fellas that had made it came with it and they drove in the hangar, and they looked at the aircraft and they looked at what they’d done, and they said, ‘Good heavens, isn’t it big?’ And that was the general consensus. Anyway, the RAF had got some, some special platforms at each side of it so that this thing was lifted up by hand. The hole was made in the top of the fuselage where the turret was going to sit, and so the piece that they’d made was then fitted in the exact place where it would be when it was actually screw riveted or whatever they were going to do to the fuselage, and suddenly it looked right. It was — it was — the guys, the guys that had made it couldn’t believe that it was, it was so right. They discovered then that when, after they’d all looked at it and felt duly, duly pleased with what they’d done, the RAF were happy. They couldn’t get it off because they couldn’t get their fingers underneath the edges of it, where it fitted to the fuselage. It was such good a fit. They had to put their hands down the inside and lift it off, up, to get it off and that was duly fitted, and that was a few weeks later, the mid-upper turret that had been in storage for so long was then placed into its position on the bomber and she was no longer a flat back. So she had that on her and she had the City of Lincoln on the nose, which was a good tie to the county. Part of our other project when we’d started was that we wanted to get the Lancaster back to the county, but we realised if we got her back, we should maybe have to do something towards housing her, which would be an horrendous type job requiring a lot of money. So we set to and to raise funds by producing postal covers and appearing at air shows and doing anything we could to raise money, which we were, all in all, quite successful at. The job that we’d done on the Lancaster had made a lot of people say, ‘Can’t anybody join your committee?’ Well, a committee’s a committee, it’s not — it’s not for a lot of people, a huge lot, so we decided to call ourselves Lincolnshire’s Lancaster Association. Hence the LLA which it’s become known as today. We applied for charitable status, which we were granted on an educational. We were classified, as far as I can remember, as an educational charity because we were educating people as to what had gone on, and we was trying to extend the life of this aircraft as long as possible. The flight, the two years that Eric Gledhill have given us four years before, had long expired but she still continued and continues well to this day. The problems that Eric had outlined to us, which were unsurmountable in the, those days when it first started, were not on. Not on at all. But modern technology and the fact that the flight had now become very publicly known, and I think it was thanks to our efforts that it was put so well publicly known, that she had gathered a following of her own people. Initially there was not too many. All the ex-World War Two aircrews were interested, their families were interested, but the grandkids in those days didn’t seem too interested. And there was a lot of, ‘Well, maybe. Is it worth doing it?’ And whatever. We did have exciting moments like a royal visit was coming along, and it was decided that we should have the aircrew who, in those days, wore — they called them “growbags.” They were sort of browny coloured baggy flying suits with zips. Lots of zips in the front for pockets and maps and things. We decided the Red Arrows, who didn’t live in Lincolnshire in those days, they wore these fancy red flying suits, and it would be nice if we could get some for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight bomber. Well we were only thinking about the bomber crews in those days. Get some black ones. I was told that Marks and Sparks were the firm, that was the firm to approach. So bearing in mind that was, it would be nice to think we could maybe, dare I say, scrounge them or persuade them to donate half a dozen flying suits for these Lancaster aircrew chaps to wear, but if need be, we would pay for them. So I duly went and saw the management of M&S to outline to them what we needed. They listened to me waffling on about, about what they did for the Red Arrows and could they do it for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight etcetera, and was greeted with, ‘Well I’m sorry, but everybody’s heard of the Red Arrows, but nobody’s ever heard of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. Good day’. So I’m afraid we drew a blank, but the Queen was coming and Philip on a certain day in a month or two’s time, so I managed to get the blue prints for these “growbag” flying suits, and the Bracebridge Heath Ladies Sewing Circle made five flying suits to the measurements. Inside legs were taken for the manufacture of five black flying suits. These were duly worn when the royal visit came, with their badges of rank on their epaulets and the pilot’s brevets or whatever, whatever they were. And this went off very well, and photographs were in the papers of these black suited people standing in front of the Lancaster, and that was the first time anybody at the BBMF had ever had a black flying suit. We were not asked after that to, to repeat the thing, but somebody somewhere must have taken notice because suddenly black flying suits became available. Strange how these things can happen, but we think we maybe lit the touch paper with that one. So all in all, our efforts continue. We, we’d always been on the lookout for spare parts, there’s always an outcry for spare parts, and I remember a chicken farmer, I believe it was, somewhere in the back woods of Woodhall or that area. I got a phone call to say, ‘Is that Mr Stephenson’, and I said, ‘Yes, I was’, and he said, ‘Well, you don’t know me, but my name’s’, and I’ve forgotten his name, but he said, ‘We’ve just been put on the electric over here and’, he said, ‘I have got a Lancaster generator that’s been used since the war, ended for lighting up our chicken huts’. He said, ‘Now this is now surplus. We don’t need it ‘cause we’ve got the electric fitted on from the electric board and would you like it as a spare part for the Lancaster?’ So we said, ‘Yes, we’d be delighted’. So I duly went and collected this from the gentleman and it was handed over to them, and it had been driven by a tractor with a belt from a pulley to light — to make the electric for the chicken huts, but it worked alright and I think it was put into their stock, and it’s maybe still there or maybe not. Exhaust stubs, I was, each engine has got, I think it’s — is it six or eight of these down each side of the engines, so there’s all these exhaust stubs and they are always on the lookout for these things. And a sub aqua, a sub aqua club from up in Humberside contacted me. They had discovered an aircraft in the Humber that had been submerged for a long time, they’d managed to retrieve an engine which, when they’d sprayed all this mud and muck off it, it turned out to be a Merlin and they were going to clean it up to be put on display. Would we like — it looked new — would we like the exhaust stubs in exchange for some burnt out ones from the Lanc? So we said, ‘Yeah. We would be delighted’. So that was arranged, but the strange thing was this particular engine — research was done on it and it turned out to be, from all things, a Wellington that had crashed in the Humber in the very early part of the war. Now, we never discovered why, what it was doing up there but it had, it had crashed and it had sunk and it was recognisable from the serial numbers on the engine what it was from. The strange thing was that there was still oil in the sump and everything, of this engine so oil samples were taken out and sent to Conoco up there, who did some research on this oil and they came back and they said, ‘It’s as good as new. If you’ve got a lot of it, you can use it’. And it had been under water for I don’t know how many years, but I suppose oil doesn’t rot away does it? Anyway, that was another little offshoot that happened about this time. I think I’d like another break Dan, if you don’t mind, while I gather my wits.
DE: Ok. I’ll press pause again.
[Recording paused]
DE: Ok. It’s recording again.
SS: As far as the LLA side of things were concerned, we became a, we stopped from being a committee to the Lincs Lancaster Association. We became a limited company as well because we felt that this was — as we were attracting members, it was a way of not leaving responsibility for things in the hands of a few. It was to spread the thing about and to keep it on a proper company way of dealing with these matters as far as bookkeeping and the like. Charitable status was confirmed, we then had to make reports annually to Company’s House with regards to all the affairs of expenditure and what we’ve been doing. Likewise to the Charities Commission, which had to be approved by both of those. As I said, we continued to raise money, in those days with a great deal of help from the Battle of Britain flight themselves because we were — we were the only people of our type. The Red Arrows didn’t have a following like we had. We gained, we gained steadily a thousand, two thousand, three thousand. I think in my period as chairman which lasted for some, from about thirty six/seven years as chairman. I were chairman all that time mainly because no one else would do it, we gathered up to five and a half to six thousand members and it seems to have stuck at that level-ish, in that area. It’s fallen away, it falls away from time to time. Basically, finding volunteers to do the work that’s needed to be done is difficult. The roles of treasurer, of membership secretary and chairman I suppose. I don’t tend to think of it in my own terms, but these, these are roles that do take a lot of time, and as volunteers you don’t get paid and it’s — particularly the, the membership secretary who has to deal with members paying, members getting behind and dealing with cheques and sending out renewals. It used to be done by hand. We had a lovely lady called Sheila Wright who did it. She had big old fashioned — this was really before computers had got going, big old fashioned manuals that she used to do it all in the old fashioned way. She’d been an accounts lady for one of the local newspapers. Sheila used to do it and she was very reliable. She was retired, she gave her all seemingly all the time. There was never any problems. She decided she would go on holiday and she went. She was going on a bus trip, I remember they told me, she went to Unity Square in Lincoln, got on the coach, sat in the chair with her friend and died. She just sat there and passed away and that was shock. She was Sheila, and she’s dead. I’ve no idea what the cause of death was but this was a disaster for the LLA, because she’d been running this thing and picking it up from the bottom is very difficult when there’s so many things that is day to day running. She’d written to people to say you’ve not paid for so many months and either pay up or you’ll get nothing else. This has been an ongoing problem. With the advent of computers, one would think that this sort of becomes easier but we’ve had, we had, in my day, a series of membership secretaries who tend to find it, for some reason, more difficult to keep up with things when it’s on computer, then when it’s done in the old fashioned way. So I guess adding the columns up is easier when it’s done on a computer in Excel, but to do it as far as all the entering up is concerned and the typing in of names and the details., this is what takes a lot of time and identifying who’s due for renewal. And unlike other organisations, when we started we only had small numbers, and we decided that if somebody joined in January, his renewal would be in January every year, and if he joined, if somebody else joined in February, his renewal would be in February, so that means all the renewals are spread out over twelve months. Which again is very, yes, that’s good, but we find that other — since this and it still operates like this today I’m told, but since then other organisations, we find they’ve got one renewal date which is the day of the financial year ending, or in some cases the end of a year.
DE: Yes.
SS: So that then means you’ve got maybe, have five thousand coming in at once, but if you’ve, if you’ve got to deal with the banking side of five thousand, well that’s, that’s the easy bit in some senses but you can imagine that to handle all these things. This was before Pay Pal and direct debits and things as we know, know them so well today have come out. It, it was difficult then, but I’m told that it’s still difficult and it’s not a job that people want. If there’s anybody out there who is in to accountancy and wants a, one’s has got a volunteer spare time job, then this, their approach to LLA would be very much appreciated. Having said that, there’s recently been a piece in The Times following the lady’s — Childline was it called? The, the children’s charity that broke.
DE: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SS: A report on that and the, the, it’s, to me it’s opened my eyes a lot, because the result of that is that there was an official statement made — that for a charity to be successful, it must be run properly, which means that in a case of expecting volunteers to do everything is not acceptable if that doesn’t make, if that is failing to make the thing run below what it should be doing. It needs, if needs be, it must — the people must be paid to do the work on a normal footing, as if it was a proper job. They would be paid and this has to be paid out of the subscriptions or the money that’s raised, because if it’s not the whole thing, the bubble will burst, as it, as it, did in this recent one. So that is something for the future for them to look at now. I keep feeding these bits of advices to them, but whether they take any notice or whether they’ve got time to, because I’m afraid with all committees, you find that you’ve got one or two people that are very active and they can’t really do enough, and you’ve got a lot of people that like to sit back and do very little and throw criticisms and block everything, and generally cause mayhem, when it shouldn’t be like that if you’re all in for the same thing. The excuse that was, is usually given was, ‘Why are you saying this all the time?’ Is — ‘I’m playing devil’s advocate’, is a much used word, but I’m getting off the point. LLA continues today, it seems to be very successful. There was a time, a few years back, when the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight decided that they wanted to take over LLA, but when you’re a charity, you can’t really be taken over because you’re responsible for all that money in the kitty as the charity, and you can’t sort of give that over to something that’s going to be run as a business. A charity is a charity, and so the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight, in their wisdom or not wisdom as I see it, have gone into partnership, or, or — is it partnership? They have a firm that produces their club they call it which you may see advertised, which is a, the reason for the club was given to me that, when it was started that the reason that that club was formed was that it was, it was to allow them to give money to other charities that were not necessarily involved with what the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight normally would be. To whit, the things like the Battle of Britain Memorial, sorry the Red Arrows John Egging Trust or whatever you call it. That was started by the widow of the Red Arrows pilot that was killed. They wanted us to give a chunk of money to them and we felt that, as trustees of that money which was raised for the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight’s benefit, it wasn’t right for us to do that. And this, because we wouldn’t do it, this seemed to cause a fracture which is, was completely uncalled for as far as we were concerned. But they, we wouldn’t be taken over and we wouldn’t do those sort of things, and so this caused them to form their own club. We continued to support them and when they want money for various projects that they’ve got which they invariably, if they get a budget for so much in a year, they want something that’s maybe beyond the budget or - at the moment, I’m speaking now today that there is a project next year for the anniversary of the Berlin Airlift. And the Lincs Lancaster Association will be or have been asked if we will pay, pay for the painting of the Dakota, to be painted into the colours used by the, during the Berlin Airlift, which I’ve been told they’ve agreed to pay, which is obviously the sort of things that’s needed which their club A) hasn’t got the money for and B) is not for that purpose. So as a retired chairman of many years, it’s left me feeling somewhat disappointed to find that they’ve made this sort of split. The charitable side of the fence seems to be quite disturbed because the flight seemed to publish as much as they could, “Join our club. Join our club”, there’s never any thought that the charity really needs the same. It’s due the same backing as the other one because over, over the years while I was chairman, I did try to work it out, and we’d donated for various projects, I think it was just over a half a million pounds for various things that would have been done over the years. Some quite expensive. We put all the, all the engineering books manuals which they’ve got — a huge collection of manuals on their airframes and all their aircraft all in wartime issue type books. We had all those put on, digitised, which I’m sure Dan knows all about. We provided them with a very big printer so that, when you’ve got a fold out document within a book that was scanned, so that it could be printed the size of the unrolled thing out, unfolded out of the book so that they could go in the hangar. If they wanted to know about Lancaster tail wheel, all they’d got to do was type in Lancaster tail wheel, it would come up, all the references they wanted. They could go to that page, print it off. Whether it was an A3, whatever. The biggest size you could think of, it would print it. The, I did receive a letter from the chief of the air staff thanking me for this that we’d done for the Flight, and by producing that book and putting it all on to, on to discs, I think it was in those days, that we’d saved them the equivalent of one and a half men a year in time saved looking for things, trying to find things in books. Today’s age, I’m afraid, those years have slipped by and it’s all forgotten, which is very sad I find. I’m sorry. I’m going off on a tangent.
DE: No. No. That’s fine.
SS: Now.
DE: How do you feel about the LLA supporting other aircraft other than the Lancaster?
SS: Well as far as I’m concerned, I’ve learned today that — I’ve been making some enquiries which — I get bees in my bonnet, being eighty years old now and I’m thinking, well I wonder why that is? And so, I sort of went through the very difficult task of googling a question and I find myself on to a website, a government website, which tells me that one charity with similar aims, can support another charity of similar aims so long, so long as the trustees of that charity agree that it can be done. Basically that’s the precis of what it says in a lot of language and it maybe needs somebody with a, with a lawyer’s degree to read that, to make it as easy as I’ve read it, but it does not, it means the door is open. And it means that in the case of, if we’re supporting the Lancaster, we read we’re set up as an educational charity so to my mind that leaves the door open that A) we can support the Bomber Command Memorial, which is educational with its Chadwick Centre, and it also means that if need be, we can support East Kirkby and its Lancaster, even though, in both cases they’re both charities in their own right, and the fact that they’ve got similar aims means what it means. This brought to mind because there was a piece, the Vulcan to the Sky people — there was a piece on their website which said they have come to an agreement, they’re now supporting the Typhoon Restoration Group. Not the RAF type of today but the wartime Typhoon aircraft, to rebuild one to put back in to the skies of Britain, and this has been supported by the Vulcan to the Trust and they’re both charities, and so I thought if they can both do it I will, I will check up on that see if that’s true and that’s what I’ve come out with this very day. So there’s, there’s hope for LLA to be able to help in other fields, but it still just amazes me that when we started, there was nobody doing anything like we’ve done for anybody else. We were one off. We were completely one off and then gradually, one can see that it’s fostered other ideas amongst other people who have come up with similar sort of things to what we’ve been doing. But as per this BBMF club that they’ve got — it’s, it’s been operated by a money-making firm who are producing various booklets and magazines and things for them, but all on a financial basis. Ours is basically all the administration is done, or has been done up till now, has been done by volunteers, and obviously, with what we’re learning now, since this kiddies thing went into bankruptcy and the results of what the enquiries have come up with, it means that maybe there’s a time to come before too long when it should be run on a proper fashion by employed staff. Only time will tell with these things I’m afraid, it’s a developing scene. I must admit that I got, I got poorly and had to retire, it would be four or five years ago now. The time flies by. I’d been doing the job too long I must admit, I was really getting tired with it. But it’s in my blood and I can’t get it out of my blood, and even though I’ve, I’ve got Parkinson’s and I’m still struggling to get about quite a bit, I’m dealing with about four projects that I’ve dreamt up myself, because nobody is, nobody’s thinking about doing these sort of things and by generating things that are home produced by the charity, that’s a lot more from a financial point of view. It’s a much better bet than buying something in for ten pounds and selling it for fifteen. If you can have it printed yourself and sell it for fifteen, you’ve got it a lot cheaper. Somebody else isn’t making a profit out of it before you get it in other words
DE: Sure.
SS: So I still keep doing, doing that and we’ll just have to see how long I last for, and how long it — how the situation develops, but I keep proffering my advice to the present chairman and whether he takes any notice of me, time alone will tell. But I maybe won’t be around to know whether he has or not, so I can’t think of anything else I can say at this stage Dan. Unless you’ve got any questions.
DE: I’ve got, I’ve got a few questions.
SS: Yeah.
DE: If you look at my page. Could you go back again to why it was you that you wanted to get involved in the first place, when you saw the thing in the paper about — ?
SS: It was just a gut reaction. Completely. Basically, my thought was, and I aired this in, I think I wrote a piece for the Lincolnshire Echo, and it was, I can’t remember the wording, but it was saying things like the next thing you know, officialdom will want to move Lincoln Cathedral to London. We felt it was such a, such a — the link between that aircraft and, in particular, in Waddington, which, Waddington — when the Lanc arrived at Waddington, three were delivered on Christmas Eve 1941. Three airframes for 44 Squadron, which was the first squadron to set up and with those three airframes came, I’ll not say a little army, but a group of people from the Avro factory, who were there to do modifications to these aircraft while they were, while they being put in to service almost. It was, it was an absolute — it must be done, and those people that came — a lot of them married local girls and there’s a lot of families in the Waddington area whose ancestors came from Cheshire and Woodford and Stockport and those places around. So the tie is not just — to a certain extent, it is sentimental but not a hundred percent. There is family links there that’s unbreakable. And by chance the same — another one of my projects which I’d better mention, is that we’re doing this booklet, myself and Toucan are producing this booklet to honour Roy Chadwick, who was the chap that designed the Lancaster and the Vulcan and Roy — he worked tirelessly to do it. But this business, the Lancaster was delivered to 44 Squadron and its first operation that it ever did, was mine laying. They divide the area of the sea around the cataract the North Sea in to areas, and all these areas were named after vegetables so these mining sorties were known as, as gardening sorties. Gardening was the first sortie that was undertaken by Lancasters from — well I was going to say from Waddington, but was it Coleby Grange? Because there was some stories that they would possibly had moved to Coleby Grange for some reason. Whether some work was being done at Waddington, but they were done basically from Waddington, because that’s where the headquarters was. Years later, when the Lanc finished, it of course went on past the end of the war, and in the mean — before, I think before it had finished, the Vulcan had been accepted into the RAF. It came into service at Waddington as well, so there’s another link between Avro and Waddington. The first, the first sortie for the Lanc was a gardening sortie. The last one of the war, on the last day of the war, believe it or not, was a gardening sortie. They’d started off gardening, they’d ended up gardening, and it is said that the Bomber Command sank more ships than the Navy during World War Two. I haven’t seen an exact figure to that but it is spoken about quite openly, and I don’t know whether your researchers have found anything to that effect.
DE: I’ve not looked at that. I think we might have to find someone to have a look at that.
SS: I think there’s a certain mythology about it, because if they’d put, put mines in the North Sea they’re not, they wouldn’t be aware that one of these had struck a ship and sunk it on that spot. How would they know? That’s something that doesn’t add up but that’s, that’s often said. And coming back to the Vulcan in service with Waddington, well the Vulcan went out of service and what squadron took it out of service? It was 44 Squadron — Rhodesia Squadron who took it out of service, who brought the Lanc in years before. They flew the last Vulcan bomber practice mission and then a valedictory flypast, which will all be in this new thing that we’re producing and there’s another coincidence that 44 is involved twice with the two different airframes, though 44 didn’t bring the Vulcan into service. Next question?
DE: It’s another one about how do you feel about how the Lancaster and Bomber Command is remembered today?
SS: Yeah. Bomber Command is — has been very badly treated over the years. I was a great believer in Winston Churchill. His speech, his speechifying shall we say, was second to none when it came to the war and keeping the morale of the country high, but the fact that he, he cut himself off from Bomber Command following the Dresden raid, which is infamous, and he fell literally, we fell or our authorities fell for the propaganda that was put out by Dr Goebbels and his people at the Ministry of Propaganda within the Nazi party. They put this out and we swallowed it hook, line and sinker basically and this, this made that, this changed Bomber Command were upset. There was no medal issued, which has been an ongoing thing for all these years and still, still despite what they did, it still there’s still people complaining about it even though I’m afraid the veterans are getting very long in the tooth, and going back to the Dresden thing, Harris was, was vilified almost for allowing it to take place but what they seem to forget is that Churchill had gone off to, I think it was Yalta, on a conference. The command of the Royal Air Force as such was in the hands and the decision making was in the hands of Portal. Portal was the one that decided where they were going to bomb. The Russians wanted Dresden to be bombed because they felt it was being used as a railway junction for supplying arms and men to the Eastern Front. They wanted it wiping out. I’m told, reading, and I forget who wrote the book, there’s a very good book on Dresden, and when it turned out that the, this raid, this day and night attack thing that took place originally there was three choices I believe. And Dresden was the one that was chosen because when they wanted to start it, was best from the weather point of view. The weather was the restricting thing. It was Portal that gave the order, not Harris. Harris did as he was told. He was outranked, and yet the ones that made the decisions at the top have sort of turned their back on it and left the lower ranks to carry the can as you might say. And the can was carried right down to the fellas that flew on those missions, because they was the ones that was made to feel like they were murderers, and there was no medal issued and there was just a pathetic silence from the government. Which to me over the years, the number of these fellas that I’ve met was beyond my dreams, that I would ever meet so many of them and to a man, this was always something that has created a lot of heated expression and the fact that Winston changed — turned his back on Bomber Command has never been forgotten. I can’t really say much more on that one then I can think of at the moment. It’s been a tricky subject I’m afraid, but the strange thing is that the Americans — one would think that they took no part in Dresden. They, they have not been treated the same way as our lads did. One, I think it was day, the RAF went at night and the Americans went by day, which was the way things were run in those days, and the RAF went by night as they did and the first raid took place and it was calamitous. It was fire storms was soon going. The Americans went back the next day, they saw a lot of smoke rising and they bombed, and it was later discovered that they had actually bombed Chemnitz, which was not the target. Dresden. They’d gone to the wrong place. So that, that says it all to a certain extent. Sorry Uncle Sam, you’ve, you’ve — their side of it has been forgotten. One would think it was only an RAF event, it was not a joint services thing. And I’ve never heard any, any words from the American top brass, commanders of the 8th Air Force, if it was the 8th that was involved in that event, that they’ve never had anything really to say about it. It’s just been another day and the RAF seem to have copped for the, to use an old country expression, the sticky end of the stick. Next question Dan.
DE: I think on a happier note, you’ve talked a little bit about the people that you’ve met. Could you go into, you know?
SS: Well yes, I’ve been very lucky that I’ve met, I’ve met so many. I’ve got a book here, I’ll just have to open it up to get my memory. I’ve carried this book with me and if I’ve met people who, who —
DE: So it’s, “The Lancaster at War”.
SS: “Lancaster at War” volume one. The first thing, when I open the pages, I’ve got a letter here from RV Jones at the Department of Natural History, Aberdeen University dated 18th of January 1979. RV Jones doesn’t mean a lot to Dan, I can see he’s wrinkling his eyebrows. Jones was one of the brains of — he was the man that bent the beams. He was, well all I can suggest is he’s so, he’s such a nice fellow and he’s so knowledgeable. Unfortunately, he’s no longer with us like so many of these people aren’t. I’ve got two or three letters here from him, but there are, he’s written. He did write books and I’ve got a copy of his book which he’s duly signed for me, and that is one of my treasured possessions because it’s such a fascinating book. That he flew, he was, he was involved in coming out with these scientific ideas. He was, he was a confident of Churchill and the top. A boffin as they were called in those days and he was — he was a great guy. I’ve got Crumb, Henry. Henry Crumb. Augsburg raid to you. I was lucky. Bert, Bert Doughty. These were the guys that went to Augsburg. I’ve got letters from Henry Crumb, Bert Doughty, David Penman. Where are we? Oh, that’s another one from Henry Crumb. There’s another one. Augsburg raid. The chap, John Nettleton got the VC on the Augsburg raid. When the Lancaster was moved to Coltishall in Norfolk, there was a young WAAF officer who he met and he married, called Betty, and Betty Nettleton was a WAAF at, at Coltishall of all places when I went to, we did a postal cover and I had to try to find these people, and I thought well I’d like to try and find Betty Nettleton. So I made some enquiries and did some detective work, and I discovered — I’ve got a letter here from her. She worked for the National Westminster Bank Company Limited at Lombard Street, London. When I had to contact her, she didn’t know me from Adam so I thought well the best thing, is to ring her up and I got the telephone number from somebody, which was a different number on the letter she wrote to me, because I had a number of communications with her, but I’ve got this letter and the strange thing was, she said that if her husband had still be alive, he’d be turning in his grave if he’d got one to think that the Lanc was moved to Coltishall. To a fighter base from a bomber base. She wouldn’t like that at all and made that point very strongly, and the strange coincidence was that her telephone extension number at this National Westminster Bank was 474, and she didn’t realised the significance of her extension number on her telephone. It was 474 was our Lanc’s PA474 which was a coincidence. So that was Betty Nettleton. What have I got here? Oh, another one of the — Patrick Doorhill, he was another Augsburg raid survivor. There’s two letters from him. Sorry, three letters from him. What have I got one here. Oh, this is one from — “Dear Stuart”. This is very nice green-headed paper from Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire KC. Oh, he’s got so many titles after his name, Ministry of Defence, Chief of the Air Staff. “Dear Stuart, I’ve just heard of the magnificent effort of Lincolnshire’s Lancaster Association in scanning the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight’s servicing manuals on to cd rom. Such a practical initiative is not only a great help to the BBMF but also displays, in a very material fashion, your interest and support for a most important part of our nation’s heritage. I would be most grateful if you would pass on my sincere thanks and congratulations to your members for a job well done. My very best wishes for your continued success. Yours sincerely, Peter Squire”, and that’s addressed to me. So that’s, those are just some letters that are tucked in the first page of the book. Well I turn the page over, I will see some names that will maybe ring a few bells with people. Page one, believe it or not, the one at the top of the page is Bob Stanford Tuck. Bob Stanford Tuck, in case you don’t know, was not a bomber pilot but he was a Battle of Britain ace. He was the original brill cream boy I’m told. He was always a very flashy type. If you, if you google Bob Stanford Tuck, you’ll see what I mean. But looking down the page we’ve got Gus Walker. Now I met Gus at Swinderby. Gus was a famous man. He was, he was a one-armed man, he lost an arm at Syerston when he was — well the story was, one story was that he walked into a propeller that was — and it took his arm off. The other story was that he’d gone to try to rescue someday from a burning aircraft, and it exploded and he’d been thrown out, so I’m not quite certain of that one. Looking down the list is Mr Chandler, 170 Squadron. We’ve got various, various names. We’ve got David Penman, David Brotherick, Bert Doughty of course. We’ve got Mary Chadwick which is — Mary Chadwick was Roy Chadwick’s widow, the mother of Rosemarie Lapham, nee Chadwick, and Margaret Dove who was his other, Roy’s elder daughter. She has been in the forefront of it, well while she was alive, parading her dad’s name around the world. Rosemary was the, some nine years younger and she’s really kept in the background until her sister died and then she’s come a little to the foreground, but they are getting, she’s getting a very old lady now as well of course. I’m sure she wouldn’t be upset if she knew I was saying that. Looking below it, would you believe it or not, I’ve got John Chatterton KMY, 44 Squadron and I’ve got underneath him is Bill Berry and he was, he’s got VNG which is 50 Squadron so they were good friends but obviously on different squadrons at the time when, when they were in operations. Some of these names that I’m struggling to read are the names of some of the chaps that survived the dams raid who are no longer with us. Now looking on the next page, the one at the top of the page is Lord Lilford. Now Lord Lilford won’t mean much to anybody except Mrs lilford, but Lord Lilford was the chap that, that bought NX611 which is now today Just Jane at East Kirkby. He bought it when it was put up for auction at Blackpool, and having left it at Blackpool for a while, he then said to the RAF, ‘You can have it as a gate guardian at Scampton providing you’ll remove it to Scampton and possibly refurbish it before it goes on the gate’. So he was responsible for it being on the gate, until it was eventually he decided to get rid of it, and the Pantons, who’d, who’d bid for it in the early stages and hadn’t bid enough, they then bought it. So it then moved to East Kirkby. Now we come to some dams people. We have Geoff Rice, Basil Fenera, Jack Buckley, they were all people that had survived the dam’s raid. I met them at Scampton and I’m not sure which one, but he had he showed me his car ignition key with a chain, a little bit of chainy stuff on it, and on it was a thing that I could say was something like that you bleed the air out of a radiator. A little key. And when they came back from the dams raid, he walked around under the aircraft and that was dangling on a lanyard and this was the key that was pulled out of the bomb when it fell off, the spinning bomb, when it fell off to make it live and as it fell away from the aircraft, it was only when that was pulled out that it became live, and he’d seen that and he just took it off and put it in his pocket, and he’d now got it on his [unclear]. I often wonder what happened to that. If somebody realised what they’d got and maybe threw it away when it was — [pause]. Underneath that, we have Ken Sneller, who I’ve remarked about before. He was the Lancaster captain when it was at Coltishall before Jacko took over. He’s put Lancaster, he’s put Lancaster captain PA474. November 1974. I’ve got Mary Stopes Roe, daughter of Barnes Wallis signed there. Somebody Smith, that could be anybody couldn’t it? I’m not sure who he is. Somebody Johnson or something. BE Johnson. HI Cousins. There’s a famous name which Dan’s looking as if he’s never heard of. Air Commodore Cousins as he was, part of the Sneider Trophy outfit. But he was, I’m not quite sure of his role, but he made a lot of, he scrounged colour film from the Americans to make a educational, not an educational — a thing to educate the RAF up and coming aircrew as to how to go about things. And the film that was slowly cobbled together, was issued on DVD and is still available today. It’s called, “Night Bombers”. You see all those Lancasters taking off from Hemswell in a row, he was responsible for that film. I did say, I said to him, there was one particular shot if people have seen that film, where they, they’ve got a Lancaster and the camera runs from the navigator, whatever, behind the pilot and it trundles through to the pilot and it moves up and down the fuselage, and I said to him, ‘How did you get that?’ And he said, ‘Oh it’s quite simple Stuart. We just took a Lancaster and carved it in half’. So they cut a Lanc down the middle and then they put, sat the man in his seat as he would be in his half and then they filmed that. And that was, that was something else. The BB — sorry — the BBC — our government didn’t have any colour film in those days, and he had to scrounge it from the Americans he said. But some of the films that were shot by him at that time were quite unique. Like Fido, lighting Fido. At that, Fido was something that hadn’t really been heard of, but Fido was the fog dispersal, whatever it was called. It was the way by burning petrol down the side of the runway to clear fog. That was the theory, but what it cost in miles per gallon I hate to think. Looking down, oh here’s one, Barnes Wallis. Barnes Wallis. Next to him, we’ve got Jacko Jackson had signed it. Below him, we’ve got one of the forces sweethearts of those days, Anne Shelton. Next to Anne Shelton, we’ve got Michael Redgrave, the actor who played Barnes Wallis in the film, so I’ve got Barnes Wallis and Michael Redgrave close together. Below Michael Redgrave, I’ve got Richard Todd who I became very friendly with. Unfortunately, I couldn’t get Guy Gibson because he was wasn’t around to sign. Pat Daniels, he was quite famous. 35 Squadron, 83 Squadron and 97 Squadron. He was — Pat Daniels I think was one of the Augsburg guys, again, I’m not, I can’t remember this. My memory’s fading a little. David Shepherd the artist has signed here, “After a memorable”, let me just get this, “After a memorable day of pure nostalgia in with PA474. Kind regards. November the 4th 1976. Coningsby”. That was the day then, David came and took photographs on which he based the painting that was, was his famous Lancaster painting, which you’ve, you’re people will have seen and I can claim that on that picture, you’ve got a fuel bowser trailer to the right — an oil bowser trailer to the right of the picture which I located for them. Belonged to a farmer, that he used to, he put diesel in it and he used it for tractors that were ploughing well away from roads and everything. And there was, what was it? A bomb trolley with no bombs on it, but the bomb trolley that I’d got collected up from a local scrapyard or some similar thing for that particular painting. But the, it was all done outside the BBMF hangar, which doesn’t appear on the actual painting because it’s, it’s David’s. The way he’s portrayed it. He wanted, I remember on the day, he wanted — he suddenly decided he wanted reflections, so they had to get the fire service. The Coningsby fire section had to attend and they had to pour gallons and gallons of water on the concrete below the Lanc and in front of it, so that he could get the reflection off the concrete of the bomber. That’s the sort of power you’ve got when you can draw out the fire service to do those sort of things. Turning the page again, well I’ve got best wishes from Brian Goulding. Good old Brian. I don’t know. The last time I heard of Brian, he wasn’t very good. Mike Garbutt his co-author has signed as well. We’ve got Johnny Johnson who’s become quite famous these days. “Best wishes Stuart”, that was John Pringle who was the engineering officer who was in charge of the refurbishment of NX611 when it went to Scampton. John Searby is another one, Air commodore, he was a master bomber on amongst the Pathfinders who put himself at risk. He was the master bomber on the raid on Peenemunde for instance, and many other big raids. I met him two or three times. Arthur Harris, Marshall of the Royal Air Force. He did sign for me when I was, when I got to speak with him down in London. Did I mention the meeting with Barnes Wallis? I was introduced to Barnes Wallis down at the RAF Museum and, ‘This is Mr Stephenson’, and he looked at me and bear in mind, he was ninety plus, and he said, ‘Oh I’m pleased to meet you. I’ve heard of you’, he said. And just imagine, how you meet somebody that — I mean Barnes Wallis to me, with his designs of the bombs, going up to the Swallow, his supersonic aircraft —to have him say that was just — took my breath and I couldn’t, I was lost for speech, which is unusual for me as you maybe notice. And I said, ‘Well how on earth could you have heard of me?’ And he followed that up with an even more strange thing. He said, ‘Not only have I heard of you, Mr Stephenson, I owe you a debt of gratitude’, and I thought, I don’t know what this is going to come out as but I shall going to dine out on this one forever, because this is, this is God talking to me in person almost. So I said, ‘Well you’ve got me on two. How on earth can you have heard of me and how on earth do you owe me a debt of gratitude?’ He said, ‘Well’, he said, ‘You’re the fellow who got that deflection can made so they could put the mid-upper turret on the Lancaster, aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes. Yes. You’re right’, he said, ‘Well the debt of gratitude is A) that you got it done and B) that if you hadn’t got it done, they told me they were going to ask me to organise it’. I said, ‘I didn’t realise I was in competition Sir Barnes, otherwise I would maybe have surrendered’. He said, ‘Good job you didn’t because all the people that I know in sheet metal work, unfortunately they are no longer any of them with us. I have no contact with anybody at all. So’, he said, ‘I would have been in real trouble if you hadn’t done it’. So that was a good one. Unlike Sir Arthur Harris, who I met on the same day who unfortunately, and I’m not exaggerating when I say he was a very difficult man to talk to, because he appeared to be somewhere else though I was talking to him. It was very difficult to try to make a conversation, a meaningful conversation with somebody when they don’t answer any questions, and they just say yes and no and as little, seems as little as possible. I must admit I was rather overtaken by, he was wearing his best blue, which with his ranks and decorations and things that he’d achieved over the years. I think he maybe had two best blues but this one must have been a spare or something, because I was trying to talk to him and try to keep this conversation going, which wasn’t really a conversation, and I was transfixed by his blue which had an assortment of holes all over it, onto which had his various badges and ribbons and stars and clusters and things were obviously meant to fit through the holes on his coat, and have little pins in the back to hold them in place, so that when he was dressed properly, he would have all this tin work on his chest and down but he didn’t. He hadn’t put them on or he’d put the wrong coat on when he came, and I thought he’s been attacked by a fleet of killer moths. That just came in my head and I’ve remembered that ever since. Sorry. Sorry Sir Arthur, that’s mean of me to say that. Right. We’re on to Searby down. Looking down the page, I’ve got Don Bennet who of course, Don Bennet was the leader of the Pathfinders and the AOC of the Pathfinders. Next to him, just underneath Bomber Harris, we’ve got Hamish Mahaddie, who was a broad Scot of course who was likewise famous in his own right as a Pathfinder I believe, but he was the guy that put all the aircraft together for the famous film The Battle of Britain, which was a major job that. Getting those vintage aircraft together to make that film. Underneath his name is one that I’ve just told you earlier on, the letter heads, Betty Nettleton has signed the book. Now hang on a minute. Hamish Mahaddie, I’ve done Don Bennett, I’ve said him, and the last one that page is Tony Iverson, 617 Squadron. Those are the front cover pages, but I think I should have to go through the book, but some of the pictures inside the book — there’s the odd one or two that’s maybe got the odd autograph on it, because it’s something they were connected with, but I should have to have a good search for that to find it, but I really must get a note made of all these signatures because you’ve had a look at them and you know how difficult it would be to interpret some of them, because I have a struggle to interpret them some of them — who they are — myself. But there’s enough names to keep somebody with google going for quite a while to sort out who they were. These, these are just the ones sometimes I’ve not had the book with me. I’ve met. I’ve met through business, as well as the Lancaster Association, quite a few of the German side of the fence and one of the interesting ones I met was Hajo Hermann or Hajo Hermann, who was the head of German night fighters. He was asked to form a group equivalent to the Kamikaze amongst the German night fighters towards the very end of the war, but that never got going. I guess they weren’t as, quite as fanatical as the Japanese. He was, he was, he told me a good story. Before the war, well before the war started, the 1930s, he was an officer in the Army would you believe, and he, he was with his soldiers and they were trawling through a swamp, he called me, he told me and lo and behold, there was two or three chaps came up on horses and they sat on their horses watching these fellows crawl through the sludge and muck and general mess, and they were covered in it and eventually one of these people on the horse said, ‘Did you enjoy doing that?’ Not in. I’m not going into “Allo. Allo” German but, ‘Do you enjoy doing that?’ And he said, ‘No’. He didn’t really — he could think of better things to do, and this gentleman said, ‘Well why don’t you join my Luftwaffe instead? We’re just reforming’, and it was Goering. So he, he said, ‘Oh yes. I’ll bear that in mind sir’, or something. Anyway, he went back and he thought well he was due for a change, he was fed up of these swamps, so he joined. He sought out Goering and reminded him and he said he’d be pleased to, and they became friends and he joined the Luftwaffe. He was involved in the war in Spain and then later, he bombed Hull would you believe, amongst other places. He was involved in the bombing of Norway, the Blitz in London, he was involved in the Mediterranean war. He told me a story. He was — they were tasked to attack ships in the harbour, a big harbour in Greece, the name’s gone from me at the moment and they were told they’d got to drop mines in the, in the harbour. That was the task and he said he didn’t want to drop mines, he wanted to drop a bomb. So he duly disobeyed orders and he took a bomb with his mine load, and when he came to dropping the bomb, he dropped it and there was a ship moored out in the, in the harbour. I’m sure the name is going to come back to me in a minute but it won’t at the moment. It hit this ship and the resultant explosion was enormous. Apparently, it was an ammunition ship that was waiting to be unloaded, and it was called the Clan Fraser I believe. He told me. It blew the windows out in Athens which was five or six miles away. A long way away anyway. It wiped out the airport, sorry the harbour, it wiped the harbour out, and as a result, it had a dire effect on British resistance, because it was our ammunition that they’d blown up. And his aircraft was very badly damaged and he coaxed it back to his home base, and was immediately got into trouble for disobeying orders, but when it was discovered what had happened, he got a medal. But he was the only officer in the Luftwaffe, he gained equivalent rank to group captain as I understand it, and he was the only one who could walk in to Goering’s office without an appointment. He could knock on the door and walk in and nobody else could do that. He was made the chief of night fighters amongst his other, because he’d been on bombers. He’d been involved with the invasion of, I think it was Salerno, or Anzio, I’m not sure. Anzio or Salerno when they first used the Fritz X wire guided, I think it was wire guided missile which was used to great success there, and he went to Goering and he said that he’d had this idea. They’d built, Blom and Voss had built some massive flying boats, which were already flying, and his idea was that they would use these flying boats, arm them with a whole load of these Fritz X missiles, which at the speed they fly, they could sort of climb out and reattach to the wings. They would fly out in to the Atlantic, find convoys and with these things they could play havoc in a convoy. They would pop ships off left, right and centre and that would, that would be a — these aircraft were comparatively cheap to make in comparison to the cost of a submarine and its crew. The, the expenditures would — for one submarine, they could maybe build a squadron of these flying boats and Goering thought it was a brilliant idea, and he’d go and see Doenitz. So he made an appointment and he went to see Doenitz. Goering made the appointment for him I think, and when he got there, he met Doenitz coming out of his headquarters, walking down the steps and he saluted him and he said who he was. ‘Oh, you’re the gentleman that has got this idea’. And he explained it all to him and he said that he felt that this would save an awful lot of people’s lives, on submarine crews, who were having a bit of a beating by this time, and it could maybe turn the war even, because we were relying so much on these ships bringing food and arms across the Atlantic, plus building up for D-day. And apparently, having listened to it all, Doenitz reaction was, ‘So you want to be my corporal do you?’ Or something, and he said, ‘I’ll think about it’, and he turned away and it never got thought of again, because Doenitz didn’t want to lose his position as commander of U-boats. Well that was Hermann. There was another guy who was shot down, a German pilot, fighter pilot who was shot down in the Battle of Britain, whose name again eludes me, but I think I’ve got a print that he signed for me. He was shot down and he came down unconscious and he landed on a road, and he was laid on a road, when he came to and there was a crowd of people around him, and he didn’t know whether he was in France or in Italy or where he was in the UK. So there was a guy tending to him, and the guy in German said, ‘Don’t move’, and started reassuring him that he was alright and he thought, I’m in Germany or I’m in France at least, and it turned out that the fellow that was looking after him was the son of, was it Gerald Henderson as it, who was the British ambassador in Berlin when war broke out, and the son was a doctor, who was British of course, and lived in this country and a million to one chance he, he looked after this German guy who was shot down. His daddy had been the ambassador in Berlin. So that was, that was a good one. There was Winkle Brown of course, I met him a few times. Cats-eyes Cunningham. Again these, these are not bomber names. There was the guy that flew Boxcar. It doesn’t mean a thing to you does that? This was the American that dropped the bomb, was it Hiroshima the second one? Or Nagasaki?
DE: Nagasaki was the second one.
SS: Yeah. Well Boxcar was the one that dropped the bombs. I met the pilot of that who was a very nice fella, and he told me this story that they’d had, they’d gone to one place and it was covered in mist and they couldn’t see the target, so they’d gone somewhere else and by the time they’d done what they had to do to get into position, dropped the bomb and then fly back they, they was virtually running out of fuel and they literally got back and they didn’t have enough fuel hardly to get off the main runway before it stopped. But that was — his aircraft was Boxcar. Which was, which was a good one. Jimmy Dell, there was another good name that I met several times. Jimmy Dell. Little fella. Jimmy Dell was, he was a test pilot for English Electric as it was. He test flew Lightnings in their early stages. He took over or he joined Roland Beamont who I’d met, to fly a TSR2. And TSR2 Beaumont, he was the lead, he was the chief test pilot. He was, our man was second. He — the promotion occurred and our man moved up to first position. They were, they were flying test flights from Boscombe with it. He — he was involved when it was flown from Boscombe up to Wharton. The TSR2 was flown up there to demonstrate it to the people that made it, to show how good it was, and they decided that he would fly it up over through the Welsh mountains, the TSR2, at low level. Jimmy would follow him in a Lightning as a chase plane, just in case there was anything went wrong because they were taking telemetry from it, which was in its early stages in those days. They set off and he followed. The TSR took off, he followed. He tried to follow him and he couldn’t stay with him. He had to climb up to — I don’t know — some big altitude to get because it was so much buffeting in those mountains that he couldn’t live with that. Apparently the TSR2 flew through it like butter through a knife you might say. It arrived at Wharton and had landed when Jimmy comes over with the Lightning, just caught up with him. That was a good story, but Jimmy again he told me they were, they were doing a test flight and they went in the morning, and the crew chief said, ‘We’ve got a snag. You can’t fly today I’m afraid, but come back after lunch’. So they said, ‘Right’. So him and the navigator guy that he had with him, they went off to a local pub and had a pub lunch and was playing bar billiards, and the landlord said, ‘It’s the budget day today. Do you mind if I put the radio on?’ And they said no, and they were playing, and they was making the announcements, and they announced the TSR2 was cancelled, so they grabbed their flying helmets and everything, got in their car, rushed back to the airfield, ‘Are you ready to go chief? We’re ready’. ‘Sorry. It’s all cancelled’, and they couldn’t believe, he couldn’t believe it was. They’d been told it had, was cancelled immediately apparently, so they went back to his office where he’d got all his records and everything, and his office had been ransacked. They’d took all the, all the, all the records that he’d kept of the test flying and observations, and everything on it had been taken away, leaving very little on the shelves, because that was his job as chief test pilot by that time of course. And he said it was, that was the worst day of his life. And again, he was such a nice fella. They went, they broke all the jigs and everything to make so if there was a change of government, it was Labour because Denis Healey was the man. He’d apparently said it wouldn’t be cancelled before the election to keep the unions on side, and then immediately when they were voted in, it was changed. Never forgive Denis Healey for that. Nor can I forgive Lord Louis Mountbatten, because apparently the Australians were up for buying TSR2, and Lord Louis Mountbatten bad mouthed it like crazy and they backed out, and that really helped its demise. But they’d even got to the stage that they’d got a firm making these big models of TSR2 for recruiting office windows, and they, they broke, they went into the factories where they were making these models and smashed them all up. They destroyed everything on it, and Jimmy was telling me all this and he’d got this big model, and I said, ‘Well hang on. You just told me they smashed them all up’. He said, ‘Years later this was presented to me’. It was, it had been separated from all the rest. It had a dustsheet or something over it and it survived and that was, that was that one. It came to his retirement — Jimmy, and it was his last day and there was a knock on his office door, and this fella came in with a box and some stuff in it, and he said he said Jimmy said, ‘Hello’, you know and the fella introduced himself and he said, ‘Look, I’m one of the guys that had to go in your office and extract all the paperwork on the TSR2’. He said, ‘We were instructed to take it to so and so and it was all to be burned. Shredded. Destroyed’, he said, ‘But I couldn’t do it all, so I’ve brought you this’. This is what — and he had a box full of stuff that he’d kept. Gone against orders. So Jimmy, he hasn’t said what he did with that, but I guess he gave it to some museum somewhere. But he’s not with us anymore unfortunately. He banged out of a Lightning aircraft and there’s a famous picture of a tractor in a field and a Lightning coming down nose down.
DE: I’ve seen it. Yeah.
SS: That’s Jimmy Dell banged out of that. Sorry, I’ve gone on again.
DE: That’s quite alright. That’s some wonderful stories. Been talking for over two hours and that’s two hours on the tape. There was more when it was on pause. So —
SS: Have you got any more?
DE: I’m just looking. I think we’re going to have to, going to have to call it a day there anyway, but I think we’ve covered most of the questions I’ve got written down.
SS: Yeah.
DE: Yeah. No. That’s absolutely wonderful. Thank you very much. Have you anything else that you’d like to add?
SS: Well no. Personally, I’ve done my bit to help Nicki. I’ve given her quite a lot of stuff from my own collections to sell, and I’ve arranged, before we knew that charities couldn’t give to charity, I made an arrangement with the chairman of LLA that I bought stock that was maybe worth a thousand or two for twenty five quid, which I presented then to Nicki. It cost me twenty-five quid but that’s that was my donation again. That went to the LLA to pay for these things, so that it wasn’t — can’t be logged as a gift, but we maybe needn’t have to bothered with that now, if that’s — it’s on the government website if I’ve read that correctly.
DE: Yeah. We’ll have to have a look at that.
SS: But we’ve got, we’ve got this booklet coming out on the Chadwick thing.
DE: Yes.
SS: And I told you about the university and the picture.
DE: Yes.
SS: If you, if you google Roy Chadwick and go on pictures, you’ll find there’s a picture of Roy, the Lanc and the Avro badge on a landscape type painting, which we’ve got permission to put on the, use in this book.
DE: From Manchester University.
SS: Yeah. And I would imagine that’s maybe going to be a good money spinner, because it will be a book that’s only going to cost five or six quid. I sent her an email back, thanking her so much. She’s not mentioned, I asked if there was any charge when I sent the question, if there’s any charge, please let me know. She’s not mentioned that so I sent her a message back, thank you so much for your help and we were just wondering if there was going to be a charge made for us to use this. I don’t suppose there will be though.
DE: Hopefully not. Hopefully not. Well thank you for the interview. Thank you for all you’ve done for the IBCC and the things that you’ve donated, donated for us to scan.
SS: I’m pleased to help Dan, and if I can do anything else to help while I’m mobile, I will.
DE: Smashing. Thank you very much. Right. I shall press stop.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Stuart Stephenson MBE
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-15
Type
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Sound
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AStephensonS160315
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Second generation
Language
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eng
Format
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02:16:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Stuart was five when war broke out and recounts some of his early memories.
In the early 1970s the Lancaster PA474 was flown to RAF Waddington from RAF Henlow ostensibly to be a gate guardian. In 1973 the Lincolnshire Echo announced that it was to be moved to RAF Coltishall. A group gradually formed to oppose the move because of the Lancaster’s connections to Waddington; the Lincolnshire Lancaster Committee. A public meeting was held and the City Council agreed to adopt the Lancaster. The Lancaster moved to RAF Coltishall. The committee collected over 17,000 signatures in 15 weeks and eventually the Lancaster returned to RAF Coningsby.
The committee became Lincolnshire’s Lancaster Association so funds could be raised. While Stuart was Chair for c. 36 years, £½ million was donated to projects, including the digitisation of manuals.
Stuart describes how unfairly he felt Bomber Command and Sir Arthur Harris were treated.
Stuart lists a large number of people he has met, received letters or signatures from.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
childhood in wartime
Goering, Hermann (1893-1946)
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
perception of bombing war
petrol bowser
Portal, Charles (1893-1971)
RAF Coltishall
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
service vehicle
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/263/3411/AGrayCJ151017.2.mp3
d77b2a53b586aa10835d976fe3601a19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gray, Jeff
Jeff Gray
J Gray
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Jeff Gray.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gray, CJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Jeff Gray at his home on the 17th of October 2015. I’ll just leave that there and if you want to -
JG: Yes.
DK: Go through your pictures.
JG: I -
DK: If I can, one thing. If I keep looking down it’s just to check that the -
JG: Yeah. Yes. Running -
DK: Old machine’s working.
JG: I was very fortunate in my choice when I joined the RAF. I was packed off to Texas. To America. And -
DK: If I just take you back a little bit.
JG: Yes.
DK: What made you want to join the RAF? Did you have any -
JG: I was -
DK: Choice in the matter or –
JG: I was in the Home Guard. LDV which became the Home Guard and I decided that I would like to join up and so I asked the farm manager I was working for if I could have a day off.
DK: So you were working on the farms -
JG: Yes.
DK: At the time then.
JG: I’m a farm boy.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JG: Still. And he said, ‘You want a day off?’ He said, ‘But you’ve got a day off. You’ve got New Year’s Day.’ So I said, ‘I think, I think I need more than that,’ so he let me go. I went to the recruiting centre, the combined recruiting centre in Aberdeen.
DK: Yeah.
JG: The army and the navy guys weren’t there. The RAF man was and I think he thought it would be fun if he stole the would-be Gordon Highlander away who had come to see if he could get a kilt and joined the RAF. He said, ‘You’d like the RAF better. They sleep between sheets at night.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’d love to try that.’ But he didn’t realise that I was, anyway that led to another station in Edinburgh a few weeks later and I went to that two days so I had to say to Jake, the farm grieve, ‘I need a week off.’ He said, ‘You can’t go doing that,’ he said, ‘I’ve signed. You’re producing food and I’ve signed all the documents and you’re exempt from military service.’
DK: Was it considered a reserved occupation?
JG: Yes it was.
DK: What you were doing.
JG: It was reserved.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: And I said, ‘Well growing food isn’t going to be enough to stop this Hitler guy, I don’t think,’ so I went off. He gave me the week off. What defeated him was he said, he said, ‘I’ll have to take a week’s wages off you.’ My annual wage was ten pounds. I said, ‘Can you do the mathematics of that Jake?’ He said, ‘No. I can’t.’ So, so off I went and once again fortune smiled upon me. I was able to make a reasonable impression on the board but I failed the mathematics. The mathematics were truly, I hadn’t covered at my school. They said, can you retake this if we give you, if we postpone your date of joining till September can you take the, and I said, ‘I can, yes’. And so I came back and thought now how do I do this so I asked the headmaster, a chap I’d always liked, the domini and he said, ‘Well you can’t go into Aberdeen. You can’t do any of that. You’re going to join the classes here, you’re going to sit at the back,’ he said, ‘And I’ll teach you mathematics till it’s coming out of your ears.’ So that’s what I did and when eventually I was up to snuff took the exam and that was it but they had already set my date to go and so I was stuck with that and I had to earn a living for a little while and I found that there were more ways of earning a living as a farm labourer than I’d realised. It was harvest time. If I went south I could go to harvest and they would pay me five pounds. Come back to Aberdeenshire and get another five pounds for the next month and go north into the wilds -
DK: Nice one –
JG: And get another.
DK: Excellent.
JG: So in three months I’d got fifteen pounds and my annual wages was only ten. I said, ‘Jeff. I think you’ve made a discovery.’ I was never able to really put it into practice and when I reported to the Lord’s Cricket Ground they went through the training there and assembled us eventually and decided where we were going to go and they shipped us off across the Atlantic on a ship called the Banfora in a little convoy and although it was a horrible ship and I didn’t care much for it it was very useful because we had a destroyer on each side sending messages to each other so we spent the time taking down their messages, you know, from the Aldiss lamps and when we got there they assembled us in a hangar and told us where we were going. Texas.
DK: Oh.
JG: Well like every school boy of the time I’d read everything I had about you know adventure comics, all that stuff and what a wonderful thing that was. So here we are in Texas.
DK: Oh right.
JG: A photograph, and there’s Jeff Gray there.
DK: Ah.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So at this point, by the time you got to Texas there had been no flying at all. All your basic flying was done -
JG: I had to do a grading course on the Tiger Moth.
DK: Right. And that was in the UK.
JG: And that was in the UK.
DK: Right.
JG: And if you passed the grading course you could go.
DK: And then straight out -
JG: Failed that and -
DK: To America.
JG: You didn’t get anywhere.
DK: Ok.
JG: And so -
DK: So this was your class at the time then.
JG: It is yes. Here’s the full class all fortunately named Number One British Flying Training.
DK: So just, just for the recording so it’s Number One British Flying Training School.
JG: Yes. That’s -
DK: Number nine course.
JG: You will find the G men in a row here.
DK: Right.
JG: Gordon and Gray.
DK: Oh I see.
JG: And Guttridge.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
JG: And -
DK: All alphabetically -
JG: We were the G men. Eventually, they, I was the only one who survived the course.
DK: Really.
JG: Which was, but they all had a career. Gordon for instance had been a policeman. He, I forget what he did in the RAF but he went back to his native Glasgow and became chief of police there.
DK: Really.
JG: Had a splendid career and Guttridge who never got over failing the course went and did something. A replica trip of Shackleton when they sailed across that ocean and across -
DK: Oh.
JG: And so he wasn’t lacking in courage.
DK: No.
JG: So there we are. So there are a number of pictures of aeroplanes. The Wellington.
DK: Wellington.
JG: Which, of course, I spent a lot of time on the Wellington as an instructor and a picture of the -
DK: Manchester.
JG: The Manchester.
DK: Manchester. Yes. Yes.
JG: You will recognise the Manchester was the most deadly of aeroplanes. It had these unreliable engines.
DK: Yes.
JG: It was simply awful.
DK: So how long were actually in America for?
JG: I think it took nearly a year altogether you know as a journey time and what have you.
DK: Ok.
JG: Yes. And when I came back of course they said we’ve got to knock you guys into shape again you know and you’re not allowed to wear shoes because you’re not commissioned and only commissioned officers can wear shoes and these lovely shoes we’d brought back with us from the States had to be scrapped.
DK: Oh no.
JG: Very foolish but anyway this aeroplane, the Manchester, you can see from the tail unit that it became the Lancaster.
DK: Yes.
JG: Just as it was. It is in fact a Lanc with new wings and new engines.
DK: The four, four engines.
JG: And so became a, I’ve got a picture here. I don’t think anyone recognises who she is. She was one of my childhood, school heroines.
DK: Oh it’s not Amy Johnson.
JG: Amy Johnson.
DK: It is Amy Johnson yes. Yeah
JG: Yes. Yeah. And at that -
DK: Did you, did you -
JG: Meeting in Lincoln I passed that around the table and -
DK: Did you ever -
JG: So much for fame. No one recognised her.
DK: Did you ever, did you ever meet her?
JG: I never did get to met her.
DK: You never met her.
JG: No. No.
DK: No.
JG: Our paths did cross at some time when she, I arrived in a Comet, flying a Comet to Australia down to Melbourne and, by chance on the date when she had done her flight.
DK: Right.
JG: Now there’s always this rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne. Melbourne said Sydney doesn’t count. She finished here. And she was carried ashore, down the street by the staff of the Menzies Hotel and when I got there the street was crowded and there was a guy who’d been a nobody on that occasion, now he’s the chief porter and he said, ‘We’re going to make you re-enact this. You’re going to be carried.’
DK: Did, did people like Amy Johnson influence you in to sort of a career in aviation? Is it -
JG: I think it was one of those things that yes you form these impressions.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And yeah. So -
DK: So when you got back from America, from your training there and you, what happened then? Did you join, go straight to a squadron or was there further training?
JG: No. No. There was a lot of training. We’d only flown single-engined aeroplanes. We had to be checked out on, on Ansons and the like to -
DK: Right.
JG: To multi-engined aeroplanes and then we wound up at an Operational Training Unit at Cottesmore. Number 14 OTU and where we flew the Wellington.
DK: Right.
JG: And when we’d done that we had to be converted to the four engine Lancasters and there was a -
DK: Did you, did you have to –
JG: Conversion Unit at Wigsley which we did that.
DK: Wigsley. Yes.
JG: And we flew Halifaxes and Lancasters because they were running low on the Lancasters and they still had a few Halifaxes so -
DK: So that was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
JG: That was the Heavy -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Conversion Unit. Yes.
DK: Did you ever get to fly the Manchester?
JG: No. No.
DK: No.
JG: No. I just, someone sent me some pictures of it and I kept them because it seemed to me to be such an intriguing tale of this very unsuccessful, unreliable aeroplane.
DK: Such a successful -
JG: Which turned into the most successful ever.
DK: Can you, can you remember much about the Wellingtons and Halifaxes? What they were like as aircraft to fly.
JG: I loved the Wellington. Oh yes. A great aeroplane really. It had no vices at all except maybe one thing. It had an automatic trim that when you put down the flap the automatic trim readjusted the attitude.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And if that didn’t work you had to be the automatic trim, [laughs] if it didn’t work and you had to catch on quickly but apart from that as a defect I thought it was a great aeroplane to be able to fly and it was robust, and Barnes Wallis, of course, again. Yeah.
DK: What about the Halifax? Was that -
JG: Well I don’t have much impression of the Halifax except it was very similar and the instructor pretended that it was a Lancaster.
DK: Right.
JG: And you called for the power settings you would call on a Lancaster and he set the power for the Halifax.
DK: Right.
JG: So this was very confusing [laughs] I found.
DK: I can imagine.
JG: I’m not sure I cared a lot for it.
DK: So, so although your training was on the Halifax. They were really preparing you for the Lancaster.
JG: Yes. Yes. It was just they had run out of Lancasters and they’d substituted Halifaxes which at the time they seemed to have plenty of them. Yeah.
DK: So, from, from heavy conversion unit then was it straight to your squadron.
JG: Yes. They said, they took us, they put us in a hangar and we were assembled there and told to choose our crew and we were handed a list. When that had been done that would be your crew and if you couldn’t do it they would make up your mind. They would give you a list.
DK: I’ve often heard about this where you were put in to a hangar. I find it very unusual because -
JG: Absolutely weird. Yeah.
DK: Because the military is normally you do this, you do that.
JG: It was.
DK: And this is very different to sort of the military thinking where you got -
JG: I thought it was a very clever move indeed.
DK: Really.
JG: And I stood there like an idiot. I didn’t know where to start and this scruffy Yorkshireman came up. An aggressive, little, scruffy Yorkshireman come. He said, ‘Have you got a navigator yet?’ ‘No,’ I said. He said, ‘Well you have now. Let’s go and find the rest of them.’ [laughs] So that was my first impression of Jeff Ward the Yorkshireman and we were buddies from then on.
DK: So this, this forming your own crew in a hangar, you think it was a good idea then. It seemed to, it seemed to work.
JG: It was a very smart move. Yes. It meant there was no objection. It was your choice. You’d done the rounds there and you’d picked them all and that was it. If you couldn’t decide they decided for you but mostly people were able to pick guys they liked the look of or whatever. Yeah.
DK: So after that it was then the posting to 61 squadron.
JG: No. I think, I think we did the OTU after that but -
DK: Alright. Ok.
JG: I’m not quite sure. Yes. And the 61 squadron, I don’t know, was the luck of the draw I suppose. Yes. And that’s what brought me into contact with Lincoln and the cathedral.
DK: So where were you based with 61?
JG: We started at Syerston.
DK: Syerston.
JG: In Nottingham and we were very displeased to be moved because we were just getting to know all the pubs there and [laughs] all the Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem and all those and suddenly we were shifted off to Lincoln and that seemed, and then and then from Skellingthorpe they sent us to Coningsby and that I liked. Coningsby was a great place to be.
DK: So you went to Coningsby next then.
JG: Yeah.
DK: Right.
JG: And then back to Skellingthorpe.
DK: Skellingthorpe.
JG: And Skelly was a cold and sad place in a way because it was very basic where the others, Syerston and Coningsby were regular accommodation and a good style.
DK: It’s a housing estate now.
JG: Yeah but I think if, if you’re in a group and you’re living in the same nissen hut and you’re eating in the same mess and everything you all become pals.
DK: Sure.
JG: It pulls you all together. Yes. Yes. So and I was interviewed just before I went there for a commission and I was interviewed by a chap called Bonham Carter and I took a very poor, I have a very poor opinion of Bonham Carter because my school in Scotland was [Raine?] North Public School. To his mind I had defrauded someone. It was not a public school. So I had to explain to him that the Scottish educational system was better and greater than the English and when we said it was a public school the public could attend. I said, ‘When you talk about a public school -
DK: Yeah.
JG: The public may not attend.’ And he put down on my documents, “Not officer material.” Quite right too. [laughs]
DK: Oh dear.
JG: He got that right but he did me a great favour in fact in that I went as an NCO and we were a crew of NCOs and were all mucking in together as it were.
DK: Did you find on a squadron a bit difficult though that some of the pilots were obviously officers?
JG: Yes.
DK: And some of them weren’t so you didn’t necessarily mix with all of the pilots.
JG: No.
DK: Was that an issue or –
JG: I don’t think it was really.
DK: No.
JG: People seemed able to cope with that. I think I felt sorry for chaps who were allocated to senior officers because that sort of changed the relationship altogether.
DK: So the dynamics of the crew sort of –
JG: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah
JG: But they seemed to be able to bond quite well but I think it took them a little bit longer and we had, I always felt that this Bonham Carter had done me a favour.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Because we bonded straight away and shared everything.
DK: So your crew were all sergeants.
JG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: As in that -
DK: A picture here. Yeah.
JG: [?] I showed you.
DK: Oh.
JG: Yeah, that one. Yes. There we are. Yes. So – and I’ve kept a number of things that impressed me. There’s a plot of, there’s a bomb plot for Stettin which seemed to me to be self-evident that all this scatter coming in from this direction that what they needed to do was to, instead of picking the target they should have -
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: Moved the target a bit beyond it and then they would have got most of the bombs falling where –
DK: Yeah.
JG: They wanted instead of wasted out here.
DK: It was known as creep back wasn’t it?
JG: Creep back. Yes.
DK: Creep back. Yeah.
JG: And it seemed to me there was a very simple solution to that rather than master bombers and that nonsense but, so I think that was why I kept that because no one paid any attention to it really [laughs].
DK: So you put the aiming point about there.
JG: Yeah. Put the aiming point -
DK: And then that would move –
JG: About a mile further on. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. An imaginary point the Pathfinder guys could find the area and identify it but then move the pretend and you would get a lot more of these bombs where you wanted them.
DK: Was it at 61 squadron then the first time that you saw the Lancaster and flew the Lancaster?
JG: Well yes. Yes that’s right. Yes.
DK: So -
JG: We had the Conversion Unit.
DK: Right. Ok. So what were your, after the Wellington and the Halifax what were your feelings about the Lancaster?
JG: I liked it from the beginning. Yeah. I thought it was a great aeroplane. It was a natural aeroplane. It didn’t have any defects that I, except getting in and out of it was a bit of a squeeze but it was a very bad aeroplane to escape from but otherwise it seemed robust and it, yeah I liked it. I thought it was great. And the sad thing is that it’s only recently that it’s sort of come into its own. Up till just recently and perhaps that Memorial it was the fighter boys, the Battle of Britain boys, they were the glamour boys. Bomber Command were nowhere and they’d rather blotted their copy books towards the end with that bombing raid on Dresden but then that Memorial seemed to change something quiet subtly in the minds of the British people and so the Lancaster has now become the aeroplane to have been on [laughs]. So -
DK: Strange that isn’t it?
JG: Yeah. I feel -
DK: So, can, can you recall your, your first mission then? Where that was to?
JG: Modane was the first one we did.
DK: That was the first one, to -
JG: And then the next one was Dusseldorf when Bill Reid got his, his Victoria Cross.
DK: So did you know Bill Reid then?
JG: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I knew Bill Reid fairly well because we were fellow countrymen, you see.
DK: Sure. Sure.
JG: I met him. He’d just got his medal ribbon up and he was out celebrating with his crew in Boston and we’d been to the Assembly Rooms to a dance and he wasn’t the sort of guy who danced. He was one of the guys who just looked on from the doorway and I was often one of the guys who missed the transport back to camp but I’d found a lady who would give me bed and breakfast so I’m on my way there when I come across [Ellis] and it was his radio officer [both?] looking for somewhere to sleep the night. I said, ‘Come with me to this lodging house,’ and the landlady answered the door, ‘Oh Jeff,’ she said, ‘Come in. Not him,’ she said, ‘He’s drunk. He will make a mess of my beds.’ ‘Oh dear,’ I said, ‘Mrs. You will be the only landlady in Lincolnshire, perhaps in the country who has turned away a man who has just won a Victoria Cross.’
DK: Oh no.
JG: ‘Get off,’ she said, ‘I don’t believe you.’ But it was true and he behaved himself. I said, ‘He’ll pay for any damage anyway.’
DK: She let him in then did she?
JG: So she let him in. So every time I met him I would tease him a little bit about his days when he was dancing and so on and his wife really never quite followed it. He doesn’t dance, he can’t dance, he thinks it’s a route march.
DK: I’ve always heard the story, I don’t know how true it was that when he met his wife it was some years before he mentioned that he’d been awarded the Victoria Cross.
JG: Oh I don’t know about that but quite possible yes. He had quite a career after that. The MacRobert’s family took him up and sent him through university.
DK: Right.
JG: And where he got a degree which and the MacRobert’s family they’d bought a Spitfire and I think they spent money on a Stirling -
DK: Stirling.
JG: Of all things. And he was given employment with them on their fertiliser division.
DK: Right.
JG: And so every time I met him at these get-togethers I said, ‘You’re still are pushing the bull shit then.’ [laughs]. ‘You’re selling horse shit.’ [laughs] I think I’ve kept some -
DK: Yes.
JG: I think I’ve kept. There he is, a piece of information there.
DK: I did meet him actually about fifteen years ago.
JG: Yeah. Yeah that’s -
DK: Because he ended up a prisoner of war didn’t he? I believe he was shot down later on.
JG: Yes. Yes. Yes. There. What else have we got here? I went from Bomber Command to Transport Command and that’s a BOAC York. That’s a York which was a development of the Lancaster.
DK: So you flew, you flew the York as well.
JG: Yeah. I, I flew the guys back from the Far East.
DK: Right.
JG: Who had been prisoners at Changi jail and all that dreadful railway and the guys who couldn’t be shipped back were flown back and I had to sign up to do that. My demob was cancelled until we’d finished this particular project. What I didn’t realise because I was enjoying myself I told the other guys around me pick me up the best of the jobs.] [laughs] So -
DK: So how many, just stepping back a little bit, how many operations did you actually do with Bomber Command?
JG: Thirty.
DK: Thirty.
JG: Yes.
DK: So one tour.
JG: We were, we were pulled off after that dreadful Nuremberg trip.
DK: Right.
JG: And I think Bomber Command decided, I think, at that stage they weren’t going to be able to bomb the Germans into submission and that start the preparation, preparing for the invasion.
DK: Were you actually on the Nuremberg -
JG: Yes. I was.
DK: You was.
JG: Yes. It was, it was a beautiful clear night. It was going to be cloudy all the way until we got to the target when it would be clear but the reverse was true. They’d picked a southerly route. It was moonlight. It was like clear as day and I think we were in real difficulty with the, with the routing and on that occasion we quickly found ourselves with an enemy on each side. Now that is the trap. You can’t beat these two if they’re working together ‘cause you turn towards one and you’ve given the other a non-deflection shot. You’re dead men really if you try and corkscrew your way out of that one and I thought we’ll try and outrun them. I put on full power. Well of course that was useless and I knew it would be ‘cause they had twenty knots faster than we were. They could catch us at any time so they just kept position and kept signalling each other and so I then pulled off the power, put down some flap which was illegal and said, ‘You’re not going to enjoy this bit guys because we are going to see the,’ our stalling speed will be lower than theirs. ‘They’re not going to enjoy following us now,’ and sure as hell they didn’t. Their stalling speed was much higher. They daren’t risk it and I was just on this, but anyway once I’d seen them off we straightened up, put on the power and climbed back up again and, got it, ‘Done it Jeff,’ I said the other Jeff and blow me down, there they were again and I said, ‘Well I’m going to pick this guy on the left. He’s the leader I think. I’m going to ram him so stand by. We’ll hit him with the nose. We might lose a bit of the aeroplane but he will lose his starboard wing.’ ‘Yes,’ they said and we headed for him and I think the guy realised it. He shot off. He disappeared. They both did. And my navigator said, ‘I haven’t been able to follow that,’ he said, ‘I think we’re lost.’ ‘No, no, Jeff we’re never lost. We’re uncertain of our position.’ ‘So what will you do?’ I said, ‘We will add ten minutes to the eta,’ and I goofed. I should have added ten minutes to the end of that route because the last leg was down to the southeast but I added it to the run so I turned on eta and of course we were well short and we were getting to the end of this ten minutes when some searchlights came on looking for us. ‘Davvy.’ I said, ‘We’re going to give them a surprise. Bomb doors open. Let them have it.’ So we bombed that bloody searchlight battery and the lights went out but there were a lot of guys in the same position. I didn’t know until afterwards who saw the incendiaries burning and they started bombing and in fact we’d hit Schweinfurt.
DK: No.
JG: And we didn’t know until it was back plotted the next day but at that stage by the end of it I could see sixty, seventy, eighty miles away in the distance the show was beginning and we’d missed it. They’re going to be, blotted our copy book. We’ve bombed the wrong bloody target. We’ve made a horse. When I got back I was astonished. They greeted us with open arms there were so few coming back [laughs]
DK: So you -
JG: And they were trying to keep the number below the magic hundred. Yeah. They were cheating. They weren’t including the guys who crashed.
DK: Ok.
JG: [who never came back]
DK: ‘Cause it was over a hundred wasn’t it?
JG: It was over a hundred. No doubt about that.
DK: Did you see many of the aircraft go down at –
JG: No. I don’t think I did. No. We, it was only very occasionally that you saw someone being blown up. We had what were known as scarecrews which was something that we’d invented that didn’t bloody exist. We thought it was some German pyrotechnic. No it wasn’t. It was some guy, usually a pathfinder carrying all the coloured flares.
DK: I’ve heard, I’ve heard the stories of the scarecrows.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So you’re saying they were actually -
JG: They were.
DK: Pathfinder aircraft going up.
JG: Yeah. They were but we believed at the time that it was a pyrotechnic that the Germans were using.
DK: Was that a story that was purposefully put around do you think?
JG: I think it was a story that the Bomber Command guys like myself invented and the bosses decided to keep quiet about it. I think they knew but they didn’t deceive us. They just let us go on thinking what we already thought.
DK: So you weren’t in any trouble then for hitting the wrong town.
JG: There was no question, there was no question of it. No. They were just so bloody pleased to see us they didn’t give a monkey about where we’d been -
DK: No.
JG: Or what we’d done.
DK: How did you feel knowing that there was those losses and the way the route had been drawn that you were going in a long straight line for several hundred miles in, in full, it was full moonlight wasn’t it?
JG: Yeah I think the winds were a nonsense, the weather forecast was completely the opposite. When they said it was going to be cloudy all the way, we’d have cloud cover, it was clear all the way except the target was cloudy and so I think the actual attack on the target was not very clever but in a way it’s helped the end of an era. They switched us to the French targets and the French targets were such a piece of duff they were only going to count as a third of a trip but it turned out that that was not correct because to bomb a French target we could not bomb a French target while there were French workers there in the marshalling yard or the factory and we had to wait for some system of someone in the resistance would send a signal to the UK who would send a signal to us to tell us when we could start bombing so we were circling around you know with nothing to do except wait and the Luftwaffe -
DK: While you were being shot at.
JG: Began to take an interest in us and come up and shoot people down and on one of the worst of those Mailly le Camp in Belgium they shot down I think it was forty two aeroplanes.
DK: Were you on that operation?
JG: I was on that one, yes. Yes. I claimed to be the guy who put out the spot fires. I may be mistaken. It was disputed by everybody except I continued to say it and I can still to say it now the others have gone [laughs]
DK: So the spot fire?
JG: It was being marked by Cheshire.
DK: Right.
JG: And he had developed this idea of low level marking and of using these red spot fires and he had everybody waiting with the flares that his colleagues had circled this and I took one look at that and said to Jeff Ward, ‘We are not joining that. We’re heading into the darkest place we can find and then we’ll come back now and again and see what’s happening.’ And just as it happened, as we got back he had it marked and we went in and when we pulled away my rear gunner Jock [Haye] said, ‘We put the bloody red spot fires out.’ I said, ‘Jock, I don’t care we’re on our way home,’ and we could hear these arguments going on. I think it was either a Canadian or an Australian and they were giving him a hard time because he wanted to remark the target, ‘Stop bombing, stop bombing,’ and they wouldn’t because -
DK: Wanted to go.
JG: They could see what we’d done and I think it was forty two aeroplanes lost and we killed one German. They’d left an NCO to guard the camp and that was their only casualty. Our chaps busy with the crosswords and whatever, some of their intelligence was a bit duff. They thought there was a whole army there at this tank training school but they’d left the week before. So -
DK: Yeah.
JG: So it was a sad tale that one and there was nothing happy about it.
DK: What was your opinions of Cheshire at that time was he well known throughout Bomber Command or -
JG: Yes he was and I got to know him after that because when he left and he inherited this property he set up these Cheshire Homes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Some guy that, you know, had nowhere to go he took with him and he said anyone who came along would be taken in provided they could do something useful. There was no charge. He paid for it. Yeah. And I thought he’s taken leave of his senses but then I realised afterwards that he was the first to come to his senses and I was flying this time in BOAC and on a VC10 and he was a passenger on one occasion and I talked to him at Heathrow in the VIP lounge and he was grumbling about the coffee and I said, ‘Put a shot of this in with it,’ and of course he was teetotal [laughs] Poisonous you see. And I said, ‘Do you remember a place called Mailly le Camp?’ And he said, ‘Shall I ever forget?’ So I chatted to him on this trip and I found, yeah he was the first guy to come to his senses and we became not exactly friends but I got to know him afterwards though I didn’t know him at the time. Yeah.
DK: Interesting. So is he someone you’ve got the respect for of that post war [chain of who was?]?
JG: Oh yes. I think what he did he went around after that every year visiting places where they had been bombed and delivering the cross of nails which I think I’ve got a picture here of one of the German newspaper. There I am with the chairman and that’s the cross of nails. The Coventry.
DK: Ok.
JG: [?] whatever.
DK: Yes.
JG: And every year and he visited Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
DK: Yes. Yes because he was-
JG: Check that they’d got them there.
DK: He was actually on the Nagasaki raid wasn’t he?
JG: Yeah.
DK: He was the British observer.
JG: Yeah so that’s, that’s in Germany that’s the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church that we destroyed.
DK: That’s Berlin isn’t it? I have seen that.
JG: Yes.
DK: Well not that. I’ve seen the church.
JG: Yeah. Yes. [pause] So that’s my favourite aeroplane.
DK: Ah the VC10.
JG: The VC10. I liked that beast. I liked the Comet as well but I like the beast. Yeah.
DK: The first aeroplane I ever flew on was a VC10.
JG: What?
DK: The first aeroplane I ever flew on was a VC10.
JG: Oh was it really? Yes.
DK: 1981. British Airways.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. That’s one. Yes.
DK: So, you, you were in Transport Command then.
JG: I was in Transport Command. Missed this lot.
DK: Right.
JG: You know. I struggled to get a job. When we were on 61 I did have an offer from Bennett to join the Pathfinders.
DK: Right.
JG: And I called a get-together with the crew where we would vote on the issue as to whether we stayed with 61 or if we went to the Pathfinders and it was a bit of a set up because I had got this, with this DFM I’d got twenty five quid and it was the only twenty five quid that I had at the time.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I spent it all in Leagate public house and of course it snowballed on me. Not just my crew but the ground crew and the girls from the parachute, they all came and anyone who came in the pub the bartender was saying, ‘Are you with Jeff Gray’s crew?’ And they said, ‘No. Why?’ ‘Well there’s free beer if you are.’ ‘Oh, yes, good old Jeff.’ [laughs] And so the vote was stay 61.
DK: Ok.
JG: It could hardly have been anything else but I don’t know if he forgave me or, ‘cause I didn’t ever meet him personally but after the war when I came out I missed this lot. The one guy who offered me a job was Bennett and, but he said, ‘You won’t be flying as a pilot. We’re taking off all the navigators on this British/South American route we’re starting and you will be acting as navigator.’ And I said, ‘Oh God. Never. I think it’s a dreadful mistake. A recipe for disaster.’ And it was of course.
DK: He lost a couple of aircraft didn’t he, in South America?
JG: He did and he did try to take the top off the Pyrenees.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And they cancelled the airline. Put him out of business.
DK: And it was at the point you joined BOAC then.
JG: Yes. Yes. That was about all that was left. [laughs] I looked at Quantas and I foolishly turned that down because they were the worst paid in the business but today the top but, and I knew that I couldn’t join any of the continentals because I was hopeless at language but so the BOAC as a very humble first officer was where I got to.
DK: So what did you start flying on with BOAC then at the beginning?
JG: Oh dear. I’m hopeless on dates. I don’t have that.
DK: Or the type of aircraft.
JG: On the, on the Yorks to start with.
DK: Avro Yorks.
JG: And then we moved up to the Comets and the VC10s and then one day I wound up when I didn’t go on the Jumbo which I really should have done as everybody else did but what I had in mind I knew that the Concorde was coming along and I thought that’s for me and, but when it came to it and I was interviewed for that they said you have to have three years clear service before you can repay the cost of the training and you haven’t got three years clear so there I was on this bloody tripwire that they’d set for me. I couldn’t get on the Concorde.
DK: That was a shame.
JG: And, however, as one door shuts another one opens. The Gulf Aviation in Bahrain were buying some of these VC10s and I was offered a job straightaway to train their guys because at this stage I was an instructor, an examiner and all the rest of the stuff so I went to Bahrain for two years and stayed for six.
DK: Ah.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So did you actually fly the Gulf Air VC10s or were you just training?
JG: Yes I flew the Gulf Air VC10s and then when they got the Tristar
DK: Tristars. Yeah.
JG: I flew that. And it was at that stage that I had to, I’d promised myself with the old Atlantic boys that I met on the Atlantic you mustn’t stay too long. There comes a time when you begin to lose it and don’t stay till then. Go just before. Always leave the party when it’s at its height and I thought this aeroplane can do everything I can do except it does it better. It flies, the autopilot flies better than I can. It does the navigation which was always my weak point, it’ll do the communication. What the hell am I doing here? Time to go. So I quit. Yeah.
DK: So what year would that have been?
JG: That was -
DK: That you stopped flying?
JG: ’74. I came back from Bahrain. It was 1980 I think. Yes.
DK: 1980
JG: Yeah. Came back in time for Christmas and I’ve stayed away from aviation ever since. From that time I had staff travel but they then brought me out of that.
DK: Did you ever get to fly on Concorde?
JG: No.
DK: You didn’t. Oh.
JG: No. Sadly. When I was in Bahrain one of the first flights I did was to Bahrain. I was able to see it and talk to some of the guys that were on it but I really didn’t want to know. I was really very, I was still very huffy about it. [laughs]
DK: So what did you think about the VC10? What was, what was that as an aircraft?
JG: Yes the VC10 was a lovely aeroplane, yes. Really. A winner. It was a shame that they didn’t continue the development but they didn’t. They went all American. So, yes. I was involved very briefly in the saga of the material that Rolls invented. This new, what do you call it? The new -
DK: The engine. The alloys. The -
JG: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: They were making the blades of this new –
DK: Alloys yeah, yeah.
JG: And we had number four engine was fitted with that on the VC10 with these new turbine blades and they were looking for a favourable report on it and we went down to Lagos. The weather was bad and we diverted to Akra. We ran through some thunder storms and heavy rain and we had to shut the engine down. This number four. And as I walked ashore a guy at the aeroplane was shouting at me to come back. It was the engineer. ‘Come and look at this,’ he said, ‘skipper.’ And it was hanging like knitting. It had shredded. The material was no damned good.
DK: Wasn’t any good.
JG: And I did myself no good by sending in a voidance report saying, ‘Any of you guys with Rolls Royce shares, sell today.’ [laughs] The Americans took up the material and perfected it.
DK: It’s the old story isn’t it?
JG: The old story and they’ve been scoring on it ever since. Yes. And now the whole aeroplane’s made in America.
DK: Yes. So looking back on your time in the RAF particularly your time on Bomber Command how do you look back on it now all these years later? Is it -
JG: I regret to say that I have some misgivings. I had at the time, I think it was Lincoln Cathedral did it for me when I first saw that and I thought armies of men came here and built this thing and what do we do? We try and knock them all down.
DK: Destroy them.
JG: It seemed all wrong to me but that’s the business we were in and I think I kept that idea in mind and I got involved with, let me look and see what I’ve got on that. Oh I think that the, that church there is the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church. My wife and I set about that to see if we could do something about it and I thought I’d go down there what else have I got? Have I got anything on it?
DK: It’s not it there is it?
JG: Oh that’s it. Thanks very much.
DK: Ok.
JG: Yes. I decided that this is the -
DK: Yes I recognise that from my trips to Berlin.
JG: That is the church which we destroyed that but the bell tower is still stood and they kept it as a symbol of defiance. They’d defied the bombing, they’d defied the Russians, they’d defied, defied the partition of the city. Everything. And the bell tower stood and, but it will have to be demolished because bits were falling off it and people were objecting and the council said it would have to be demolished or rebuilt but they had no money so I wrote to them and said why not set up a fund and ask the guys who did the damage to pay for it and I think I’ve got all that here. [London Times?] of your dilemma. You should try to save it. Why not ask the guys who did the damage to make a contribution to a restoration fund and so on and I took part in a number of raids against Berlin starting on the 2nd of December 1943 and on their behalf I would like to make a contribution to the fund of five hundred pounds to start the ball rolling. To my astonishment they took it up. There is the reply from the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church and so the fund was successful. We raised quite a lot of money by giving the sole story to the Berlin newspaper chain that, there we are being interviewed for that. That’s the picture -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Being copied here and so they did it and there we are. That’s myself, my wife and my grand-daughter, my son’s wife Gerlinde. And ‘English bomber pilot triggers off fund raising’ and I’ve, there’s the, it stalled for a bit and then the, raising funds. The guys in this country didn’t want to join in I’m afraid.
DK: No.
JG: They were all raising money for the Bomber Command Memorial here and didn’t want to know about this one. Then, but the National Lottery came in with money and then Angela Merkel -
DK: Oh yeah.
JG: Moved in.
DK: Yes. Yes.
JG: Topped the fund out so -
DK: Yeah.
JG: The restoration started and I think it’s complete as far as I know and I would like to think there might be a big ceremony of some kind but nothing has happened.
DK: No.
JG: It should have been ready last year but then they were celebrating the Berlin wall taken, took everything. I should think if they do it it will be the 26th of November when we destroyed it so -
DK: So, how, how do you feel this is the, you obviously do, it might sound a silly question, is this an important part of your, your life and in some ways a response to your time in Bomber Command?
JG: Yes I think it was. Yes. I think it was. These are a number of smaller shots.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I had made if you want to and, yeah I think it was a reaction to that, a guilty conscience I don’t know.
DK: Did you –
JG: But anyway I’m very pleased that it succeeded.
DK: Yeah. Did you manage to get many more, any more RAF -
JG: No.
DK: Guys.
JG: Very few.
DK: Very few.
JG: I was very fortunate in that the ones I knew and I was able to ring up and talk to them or to their widow they would say, ‘Sorry Jeff. I think you’re a bit off your trolley. It’s not going to work.’ And they were quite right so I said, ‘Ok. I’ll have to do it without,’ and we did get, my wife and I did get invited to the, when they got the glockenspiel working and ringing mid-day but she wasn’t well enough to go.
DK: No.
JG: And so I didn’t get to that.
DK: Ok.
JG: But I have lost touch with them a bit since then. Yes.
DK: Ok.
JG: I’m really hopeful that this crazy Scotswoman who has appeared, Nicola Sturgeon.
DK: Sturgeon. Yes. Yes.
JG: Is moving in everywhere she can. I’ve been in touch with her because I think she’s got some good ideas and she’s one of the people who gets things done. You may not like her or like what she’s doing.
DK: No well. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: As a fellow Scot and she wrote in very sympathetic vein and so I think that I will be in touch with her again to see if there is anything is happening. If there’s going to be a ceremony could she get in touch with Angela Merkel and see if we could arrange a ceremony because having separated Scotland -
DK: Having got that far
JG: She might like to make a fuss of it.
DK: Yeah. Definitely.
JG: So wait and see.
DK: Hope something comes about.
JG: Some of these pictures I’ve got that have been made up are for her attention.
DK: Right.
JG: Because if you hit people with pictures like that they pay attention.
DK: Yeah. Definitely. So how many raids on Berlin did you actually -
JG: Nine.
DK: Actually do. Nine.
JG: Yeah. I met people who did ten and I met people who did dozens more but not of the big sixteen you see. Yeah. And that first one that they did in November which destroyed the church did a lot of damage, you know. It destroyed the zoo and there were wild animals rushing about everywhere and had to be rounded up and that. I think that rather misled the guys in Bomber Command into thinking this was going to be easy but it wasn’t and I think we set off with the wrong kit. The stuff they’d done on the short range, the Cologne and the like, medieval cities, wooden frames, narrow streets.
DK: Burnt.
JG: You set up a fire storm with a bomb that shatters the tiles and the windows and the incendiaries, you know, get into the building and people die in the fire. Lack of, suffocate. But none of us had been to Berlin. It’s not like that. Great wide boulevards and the tall buildings made of stone and brick and steel with sloping roofs and we had the wrong kit. We were never going to set that on fire. Ruined the plane trees in the street, they all burned, you know but the nature of the buildings they were sheltering in they had made passages through from one to the other so if that one caught fire they went -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Into the next one. Yeah. And in the morning they cleared up the rubbish and tidied the street and went back to work and I think the real thing that defeated us was the fact that in the blitz in the UK in Coventry and London it produced a spirit of defiance. And I think if you produce that in people you can’t defeat them.
DK: No. No.
JG: So -
DK: No.
JG: Anyway, so -
DK: And what’s, what’s the German, the Germans you’ve met there, what’s their, been their reaction to this? Has it been favourable?
JG: I think they quite like the idea of their symbol of defiance being turned into a symbol of reconciliation.
DK: Reconciliation.
JG: That’s the theme I pedal. A symbol of reconciliation and I think of late we’ve had programmes showing us Germany and some of the bombing and some of the damage that was done and showing us the places and the people who were affected and being told their stories and, yeah. And I think they’ve been doing a lot on the Dambusters of course who were, became famous because of the wonderful film they made you know and playing with those bombs and it wasn’t until recently that I realised that Churchill was worried about the bombs that hadn’t gone off and that the Germans were able to examine and began making a list of the dams in the -
DK: UK.
JG: In the UK that they could bomb. Yes. Yes. So you learn these things eventually that you didn’t know at the time but I do think that if you get that spirit going among the public that they will not, they will defy you, you’ve lost it. Yeah. You’ve lost it.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Yes.
DK: And did you meet many Germans who were there at the time, when you went out there?
JG: No. I haven’t. No.
DK: Ok.
JG: No. Of course I rely on Gerlinde as my interpreter because I’ve only got a few words -
DK: Oh right.
JG: In German.
DK: So scrape by on -
JG: She can speak German then.
DK: Yes. She’s a Bavarian. Yes.
JG: Oh I see. Right. She’s, right, ok. She’s German.
DK: So -
JG: Or Bavarian I should say.
DK: Yes she would say she’s a Bavarian.
JG: Bavarian.
DK: Yes. Quite right. She’s not German. She’s Bavarian. I’ve made that mistake before.
JG: Yeah. So -
DK: Ok. I think I’ll stop there.
JG: Yes.
DK: It seems a sensible place to stop so thanks very much for that. We’ve been talking for nearly an hour.
JG: It’s been a pleasure anyway. Yes. Yes.
Dublin Core
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AGrayCJ151017
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Interview with Jeff Gray
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:57:16 audio recording
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Pending review
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David Kavanagh
Date
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2015-10-17
Description
An account of the resource
Jeff Gray was a farm labourer in Aberdeenshire when he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He trained to fly in Texas and completed 30 operations as a pilot with 61 Squadron. After leaving the RAF he worked for BOAC flying Yorks and VC10s.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
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France
Great Britain
United States
France--Mailly-le-Camp
England--Lincolnshire
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Julie Williams
61 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
civil defence
crewing up
Halifax
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
pilot
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Scarecrow
searchlight
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/AStockerEE161013.2.mp3
a6ef8f8aef1748927c2931c8116ebbf3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. Make sure this is working OK.
ES: OK?
DK: I, I — you’re sometimes beaten by the technology. So, it’s David Kavanagh inter— interviewing Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker at his home on the 13th of October 2016. I’ll, I’ll just leave that there. If, if I keep looking down, I’m not being rude, I’m just making sure it’s, it’s going.
ES: Er, I’m one of the lucky ones I suppose. If you’ve seen how many trips I’ve done, you’ll know I’m a lucky one.
DK: No, I’ve seen the statistics and they’re terrifying. It’s — they’re covered in your book obviously. What I wanted to ask you was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
ES: I was in the Air Force. I was an apprentice at RAF Halton. I joined the Air Force in 1938, January ‘38, and I — when the war started, they — it should have been a three year apprenticeship but when the war started, they cut it down. They [cough], I did two years and three months I think, so I was a bit short, but they, to make up for the shortcomings, we lost our Wednesday afternoon sports and Thursday afternoon, er, Friday afternoon, um, drill so they stopped the apprenticeship short and gave us accelerated apprenticeship, so I came out. Oh dear, I was still an apprentice — I was an apprentice when the war started because I heard Mr — I was on church parade. We were at church, um, on the 3rd of September and, um, the padre cut his sermon short to say that Chamberlain was talking on, on the BBC and we would go back early so we could actually get in the NAAFI to hear the Chamberlain broadcast. Remember, in those days there wasn’t — radios were expensive but they were all batteries and batteries cost more than you earned in a week, so that’s why we had to use the, the NAAFI to hear the broadcast. Anyway, we heard this broadcast and we’re now at war, which was very good, nice to know [cough] because — as I’d just heard that news, I walked out of the NAAFI to go back to get my irons to go to the cookhouse to get some food and, um, the war had been on for a good ten minutes, maybe a quarter of an hour, and there was a snotty little PTI corporal said, ‘You’re on a charge. You haven’t got your gas mask with you. Don’t you know there’s a war on? You’re supposed to be carrying your gas mask’. I hadn’t — there wasn’t a war on when I left the barrack room and that’s where I left my gas mask [slight laugh], so that was a good start to the war. Anyway, I carried on, er, 1940, in April, March or something, my, er, my apprenticeship was foreshortened and I was passed out as an aircraftman first class. When you’re an apprentice, you can pass out either as an AOC, which there was very few of them (I think in our entry there were two), and an AC1 which was the middle of the road and most of us did, and AC2 which was those who weren’t very bright. And there had — I had a very good posting really, I was posted to Boscombe Down. So, unlike most of the people, when they left their apprenticeship, they went to a squadron and whatever aircraft the squadron had that was the aircraft they worked on but, being lucky, and going to Boscombe I had all sorts of aeroplanes. We had the first prototype Stirling I, I worked on and we had all sorts of funny fighters we were getting. The RAF took over aircraft that the French had ordered but the Germans rather stopped the Americans delivering to them so we took over things like the Mohawk and things and, um, so I, I got into working as a fitter on all sorts of different aeroplanes and then I applied for — I went in to see the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like a pilot’s course’, and he said, ‘No, you can’t do a pilot’s course with AC1. You’ve got to be AOC before you can apply for a pilot’s course’. Anyway, I went back to work and did some — my trade test and became an AOC. I went back into the flight commander and said, ‘I’m an AOC now, can I have a pilot’s course?’ He said, ‘You’ve got to be an AOC for six months at least’. Unfortunately, five months later they made me a corporal, so now I can’t be a pilot because I’m too valuable but then the first of the four engine, as I say all those — I worked on the Stirling, the first of the four engine bombers, and, um, they came with an AMO. They wanted exceptional AOCs, corporals and sergeants and the fitters trades, fitter trades to become flight engineers because before the war, you didn’t have flight engineers because they didn’t have any four engine aircraft, apart from the Stirling, and so I thought — Stirling, Sunderland flying boat, and, um, so I thought well — I didn’t [slight laugh], I didn’t know about this AMO until the flight c—, um, the flight clerk came down — I was working on an aeroplane — with this bit of paper in his hand and said, ‘The flight commander thought you might like to read this’. It was the first, er, call for flight engineers and flight commander had his head in his hand on the right way. He thought that was the [unclear] tell about it so I went back with the flight commander, flight clerk to the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like to be a flight engineer’. Well, I got that, um, sort of got back to barracks, about — it must have been within forty-eight hours, they really were desperate, um, I was called back to the flight commander, given an hour warning, sent off to, off to — where was it in Scotland? Er, oh dear, just north of inverness, north-west from Inverness? I was off on a three week air gunner’s course. I didn’t want to be an air gunner, I wanted to be a flight engineer but, um, I did the three, this three week air gunner’s course, flying in some decrepit old airplanes, and I was then posted to 35 Squadron in Linton as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. I hadn’t done, apart from being a fitter and the three weeks’ air gunner course, I was now a flight engineer. Fortunately, at this, they got the crew but they hadn’t got the airplanes. Point of interest perhaps, my flight commander at that time was a guy called, er, Leonard Cheshire, Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire was my flight commander and —
DK: What were your feelings about Cheshire as a man?
ES: Well as a man [unclear], didn’t have a great understanding of aeroplanes, little or no knowledge of engineering but, um, he had the knack of flying the aeroplane. He could fly it quite well.
DK: Did you, did you fly with him at all?
ES: Only, er, local flying from the thing.
DK: And he was a competent pilot, was he?
ES: He was a — he seemed competent but a little bit slap happy. He talked myself and several other flight engineers, who were new to the squadron, up in the Halifax on a very nasty day in Yorkshire. We sort of took off straight into a cloud and he plugged into the intercom and said, ‘Now I’m running the engines on hot air because of the — to stop them icing up. I’m now going to switch two of them off onto cold air’. Of course, within about three minutes, they’d iced up and the engines had stopped. ‘Now you see what happens when you don’t use hot air’. Yes, I know but we’re flying in cloud at about three thousand feet somewhere over the Yorkshire Moors, no real radio, or any thought. It was a bit stupid. Stating the obvious.
DK: Was he a slightly eccentric man then?
ES: No, not slightly.
DK: No. OK. Completely [laugh].
ES: He was an academic from an academic background. I think he didn’t have a very high regard for engineers or any engineer, and, er, Paddy O’Kane was his flight engineer. He was an Irishman who kept — must have let his temper well under control.
DK: Were you, were you quite pleased to get down then after that flight?
ES: Oh, I wasn’t that — it was interesting. I thought I was too young to be too worried, I just didn’t like it. It knew it wasn’t the right thing to be doing [slight laugh] and, er, I messed about on the squadron there. As I said we were very short of aeroplanes, plenty of crews, there about three flight engineers to every engine, every aeroplane. But I just went back, a lot of us went back to working on the flights as a fitter, ordinary fitter again. And, um, I went there I think Ap— March or April ‘40. It wasn’t until October that I got a crew with an aeroplane, joined a crew and started operating over Germany. I wasn’t very impressed when we did start. We were supposed to be bombing Essen at night, and we — in those days they had very little in the way of range. When they dropped the bombs, I wasn’t that impressed. I said, ‘How –?’ I looked out and I couldn’t see how the hell they knew where they were, and listening to the navigator talking to the pilot, I don’t think he had that much of an idea. It was a very hit and run, well hit and miss, mainly miss, flying in the first few months of the war or the first few months when I started flying. But I, er, what did I do? Oh yes, I know. Early on, with the flight commander, by saying, briefing us for our second trip, ‘We’re going to Nuremberg#. It was rather a long way to Nuremberg from Yorkshire, particularly when we were flying in the early Halifaxes, which did not have as many fuel tanks as the later ones and I, being a sort of awkward bloke, I knew what fuel load we’d got and I had a chat with the navigator, he was another sergeant so I could talk to him, got the air miles and the fuel load and I did some sums. We haven’t got enough money to — enough fuel to get there and back let alone have a reserve and anyway, still being young and cheeky, I said to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip’. To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing’. Well, they didn’t. We came back and I was keeping the throttles closed as much as I could, getting the best air miles out of it. We actually could see the airfield and when we crashed, we were almost within walking distance of the airfield [slight laugh].
DK: You just literally ran out of fuel?
ES: Yeah. Well, we ran out on one — because we were low, I was running, um, each side’s engines on all the tanks in that wing and, um, two engines stopped on one side, so I went down the back and put a cross feed on, um, and so I ran four engines off an empty tank but —
DK: So was anybody hurt in the crash or —
ES: Er, no. When we were sort of getting organised I, I‘d dumped the escape hatches over myself, the pilot and myself, and I was actually on — the skipper had started to bail the crew out. There should have been only two of us left in the aeroplane at that stage but the engines finally ran out of fuel and stopped and, er, we went down, hit the ground on a rather nasty bump, bounced over one hedge and landed in the next field and —
DK: So, there was just the pilot, yourself and one other still on board?
ES: Should have been the pilot and myself but we hit the field, the ground and bounced as I said. I was amidships with the hatch open there, the skipper was in his seat but the hatch over his head was missing, so when things grew to a halt, and the engines started burning, um, we decided to leave so the skipper came up on the wing next to me. I’d got onto the wing, which was the back edge of the wing because the undercarriage was up of course (when you’ve got to crash you don’t have the wheels down) and slid off the wing. The cows in the field didn’t like the intrusion. The skipper and I were looking around to find a quick way through and while we were doing so, a voice from behind said, ‘Wait for me’. It was the, um, the air gunner. He should be the first out. Unfortunately, he’d forgotten to take his parachute down the back. He’d left the parachute amidships by the door and he was actually in the fuselage, walking up the fuselage, to get this parachute pack when we hit the ground. Anyway, he got out alright and, um, we were going, er, out of the field and eventually, er, two ambulances arrived. ‘Are you injured?’ ‘No’. ‘OK, go away. This is for injured’. The other ambulance, ‘You’re not dead? This is for bodies’. So, we were still left there by the aeroplane and eventually the CO came over in his little car. As I say, we were within sight of the airfield when we actually hit the ground and the CO had driven over in his Hillman, and he sort of had a few words with the skipper. He kept well away from me. I told him we was short of fuel and I was bloody right [laugh]. But, um, he must have borne that in mind because, having done four operations with 35, um, I’m called in and told I’m going to a new squadron, where they‘re just going to get Halifaxes to instruct the flight engineers and pilots on the Halifax. I’d done four operations and there I am, I’m an instructor on 102 Squadron and obviously the CO at that time was a squadron leader, um, he’d got the message I might know what I’m talking about and there I was, an instructor. Much later on in the war he was the fli— squadron commander of the Pathfinder Squadron, I was the engineer leader and when he wanted to fly, guess who he took as his flight engineer? But, um, anyway I went to this 102 Squadron, had two qualified flying instructors to teach the pilots and things, and I had to explain the workings of the Halifax and things to the pi— new pilots and check up on the en— blokes that were posted in as engineers. And so there I was, twenty years old, telling these people. I said, um, the flight, flight commander who was the flying instructor, like me was an apprentice from Halton, trouble is he was about six years before me [laugh]. However, he thought, he must have thought I was making a good job of it, telling these people, because he suddenly called me into his office. He said, ’What do you think about taking a commission?’ A twenty-year-old sergeant. ‘Ay?’ I said, ‘Well you, you did it. What do you think?’ And he said, ’I think you should’. So, I suddenly found myself twenty years old, commissioned and — being commissioned anyway. I wasn’t actually commissioned at that time. I was put in for it. Later, on the Pathfinders, were starting and they were asking for crews and they asked for volunteers from other squadrons. There was a, a couple of Canadians, a pilot and navigator flew together, and they thought it would be a good idea to go to Pathfinders. Their flight engineer lived locally to New York so he wasn’t keen at all so, er, Hank, the skipper that was, he came to me and said, ‘We want a flight engineer. What do you think?’ I said, ‘OK. Put me down. I’ll go with you’, so I was posted to Pathfinders on 35 Squadron and, um, I was still a sergeant. And suddenly one day, the adjutant called, er, sent for me and I go to the adjutant’s office. The adjutant was sort of absolutely horrified, ‘You’ve been commissioned’, so I was the first flight engineer, one of the first flight — batch of flight engineers to be commissioned. Mind you, I did have to go for an interview at the Air Ministry first. It was quite an interesting one because at — down at Pathfinders at Graveley, which has its own station down the road to get straight into London, about an hour, three quarters of an hour ride to London so I knew, um, when I was told about this interview at the Air Ministry, I was flying that night. So went, you know, did my trip, came back, changed, had a shower, changed into my best blue, down the station and on the train up to Air Ministry for this bloody interview. I didn’t really know what it was all about but, er, they want to see me they can see me. So, I staggered into this interview thing and lots of sen— brass there, mainly group captains or wing commanders but there wasn’t a pilot or anything amongst them. They were all engineers you see, and, um, they didn’t know really know that much about it, they’d got to interview me and that was it. I sort of staggered in and I went asleep in the waiting room outside and they woke me up to go in, and I was sort of wiping the sleeping dust from my eyes as I went in for the interview. And one of these officious men obviously, um, thought I was on, been on the booze up in London that night, ‘Where were you last night?’ I gave them the name of the target [laugh]. Oh dear, atmosphere changed [laugh]. They gave me the wrong answer to the right question and, um, after that the interview went quite well. I ended up them telling them more about what went on than they knew about. Well, so that’s OK, so I’m told I’m commissioned, I go down to London with a bit of — coupons and some money and buy myself a uniform as a pilot officer. I go back to the office, back to the squadron and I get called in again, ‘We haven’t got a, what is it? An establishment for pilot officer flight engineer, only a flight lieutenant. You’re an acting flight lieutenant’. So I went, in about a matter of weeks, I went from a scruffy sergeant to a blown-up flight lieutenant [laugh] and I’ve been all sorts of flight lieutenant ever since. That was pilot officer acting flight lieutenant, flying officer acting flight lieutenant, war [unclear] flight lieutenant, end of the war flying officer acting flight lieutenant, er, proper flight lieutenant. There you go. I’ve been promoted to flight lieutenant so bloody often that I don’t know — but, um, that’s how it goes.
DK: So, so once you’re in the Pathfinder Squadron then, what was your — what did you do there? What were the Pathfinders doing?
ES: Well, it’s, um, the first thing they said was if you go into Pathfinders instead of doing thirty operations and being rested, you’ll do sixty. That didn’t last long. They cut those down to forty-five and —
DK: How did you fell about that, having to do two tours?
ES: Not too worried. I was young and stupid. Anyway, um, having being made a flight lieutenant, I was in charge of all the flight engineers, and when my crew finished their forty-seven, forty-five, they were posted away and I stayed on as flight engineer leader, and then suddenly somebody, something clicked, ‘Oh he shouldn’t be here, he’s done it’. And, um, I did, I did a couple more afterwards with other crews that hadn’t got an engineer at the time. And, um, shows you how stupid I was, I thought I’ve never, never tried — I’d like to try a trip as, um, a gunner so I volunteered to go on a trip as a mid-upper gunner on a flight just for the heck of it and, er, they suddenly realised I shouldn’t be there and I got posted straight away to a Training — a Pathfinder Training Unit. I arrived there just as 7 Squadron had taken a beating. They’d lost a squadron commander, two flight commanders and all the leaders. They had a hell of a time and so they suddenly they needed some experienced people in the Squadron, so they came to NTU to get them and, er, so they gathered — drew a few of us together and posted us to 7 Squadron. The only thing is, I hadn’t been there very long so before I knew where I was, I was back on op— on an operational squadron, on 7 Squadron, but they’d got Lancasters and I didn’t know a bloody thing about the Lancaster. The Halifax — I’d been on propeller courses, engine courses, er, aircraft course, airplane courses, everything and they had the, the Linc— the Lincolns. The Lancaster, I didn’t know anything about really apart from they had four Merlins and they were much the same as the Merlins in the, er, Halifax except they were made in America and had a better, er, better, um, type of — better design cylinder block, didn’t get internal leaks, and, um, I thought, ‘Well I must find out something about this aeroplane’. And I was still sort of feeling my way trying to find some books and things and they suddenly said, ‘You’re on ops tonight. Oh, and you’re a bomb aimer as well’. Because on Pathfinders, on Lancs, they used their flight engineer as a bomb aimer. Well, I don’t know a thing about bomb aiming and so they gave me a quick run through on the ground on how to set the bomb sight up and they said, ‘You better try it. Have a go’. They put, they put eight practice bombs on one of the Lancs then go off to a bombing raid, do my first bombing, eight, eight training ship. Trouble is, I dropped one and then the thing didn’t turn out right, the rest wouldn’t drop, so I had dropped one practice bomb. I was a bomb aimer with one practice and I’m on ops. I dropped four — about 80,000 tons of bombs, bombs that night, just practising [laugh] and that’s how life goes on.
DK: So as, as a flight engineer then, what did you prefer the Halifax or the Lancaster, once you got to know the Lancaster?
ES: If I was going to crash, I’d rather do it in a Lanc, in a Halifax. If I was going to go to war and not get shot at, I’d go in a Lanc. The Lanc was a much less sturdy aeroplane and it had the most diabolical position to bail out from. The, the door is right in front of the tail plane. On the Halifax the escape hatch in the fuselage is on the bottom corner of the fuselage and you dive out there, and the tail plane is way over. The only thing you’ve got to worry about is hitting the tail wheel. But, um, so if I had to bail out, I’d rather bail out of a Halifax and, um, I think I’d rather crash in a Halifax. It’s a much sturdier aeroplane, much — old fashioned pre-war des— design. The Lanc was a, a lash-up, um, it would never, it would never have flown, been allowed before the war because, um, aeroplanes had to fit in a hundred foot hangar. Well, the Manchester, which was the forerunner of the Lanc would go in a Halifax, in a hundred foot hangar, but when they took the Eag— Rolls Royce Eagles out and put a Merlin there, and then a bit of wing with another Merlin, that put an extra bit of wing on and the thing wouldn’t go in the hangar. So, it would, it would never have been allowed pre-war. But it, it gave an extra form of — the later Hali 3, they did have extended wing tips, they extended the wing on the Hali 3s which was a good solid aeroplane. I would like to have seen a Hali 3 with four Merlins, um, I think it would probably have been as good as the Lanc, but it didn’t —because it was built like — I was going to say a brick shit house [laugh]. As it was very well built, it didn’t have the same bomb carrying cap— capabilities and it didn’t have a bomb door, a bomb bay. The Lanc had this enormous long bomb bay which the Americans, the Americans saw that bomb bay and said, ‘Good God’, and so, um, you could you could carry a eight thousand pounder in a Halifax, which was two fours joined together, but it wouldn’t take any of the big things and it was very narrow and it had these extra bomb, er, bomb bays in the inner wing too. It wasn’t as well designed as the Lanc was. The Lanc wasn’t designed that way. It was a bit like Topsy. That was the way it grew. Yeah, I tried them both.
DK: As a flight engineer though, and purely as your role as a flight engineer, you preferred the Lancaster?
ES: Well on the Halifax, you had a much better instrument panel, you could see what’s going on, but you had a very complex fuel system. You started out with four tanks on the Hali 1s, early Hali 1As, that soon went to —from four tanks to — it went up again, and I think we ended up with 7 or 8 tanks in each wing and all little bits where they squeezed a bit in, um, which gave a very complex fuel system. To keep the CG right you had to keep messing about. I say the nose tank, number 2, which was on the leading edge of the wing, er, you couldn’t use that for landing or take off because of the change, sudden changes of altitude. So, the Halifax, you had — needed an engineer or somebody who knew what they were doing to manage the fuel system. The Lancs, with four bloody great tanks, you didn’t. Basically, you didn’t need a flight engineer on a Halifax, it was just another pair of hands, another pair of eyes and somebody else to keep an eye on the gauges —
DK: On the Lancaster, on the Lancaster, you didn’t need a flight engineer?
ES: No, but you did need somebody in the right hand seat.
DK: Right. OK. Yeah.
ES: And the flight engineer was cheaper than a, a co-pilot, a pilot, that’s really what it was, they were a cheap pilot substitute in a way.
DK: On the Lancaster so you didn’t need, really need a flight engineer on the Lancaster?
ES: Not as an engineer. I’ll tell you, the fuel cogs were two little handles but they had very big tanks. The Lanc, the Lanc, the original design of the Lanc was based on the premise that you would have sealed wings and there’d be a filler cap in the wing and you filled the wing up. But that meant that — that was fine until they said all tanks have got to be self-sealing, and you can’t put self-sealing on the outside of the tanks and that’s why they ended up putting little tanks in. But um, it’s a matter of history there. The Lanc arrived just at the right time. The Halifax was before its time and was outdated as soon as it arrived really but it was better than a Stirling.
DK: Yes. Did you fly ever on the Stirling or —
ES: Yes, I had, down at Boscombe.
DK: Not operationally though?
ES: No.
DK: No, no. So can you say a little about what the Pathfinders actually did and their, their role that was different to —
ES: Oh, quite different, um, initially it was a matter of, er, developing the technique. Don Bennett developed the tech— developed the, or developed the technique, I say, initially on Pathfinders, it was a matter — we had people going at H – 4 and dropping flares like mad and then other people following on trying to find the target. Later on, it got much more sophisticated. You still had the supporters and the important people in the H – 4. Supporters were supplied by the squadrons from the new boys in Pathfinders, this was in the opening stages. The crew in Pathfinders, first thing flying as a supporter, going in as H – 4 and, um, then later on getting promoted to being a flare dropper, still going in early, er, usually several rows of flare droppers, H – 4 and H – 2, and then you had the king-pins dropping the target markers, er, target indicators, from — with the light of the flares of the others and then once the master had put, um, put his marker on the target the supporters came along to keep it going. Basically, that’s all there was to it really, but it got a bit more sophisticated.
DK: Did you actually meet Don Bennett at this time?
ES: Oh yes. I knew, I met him.
DK: What did you think of, of Don Bennett?
ES: I — he didn’t need any crew. He knew it all. No, I was a great admirer of Don Bennett.
DK: You actually flew with him, did you?
ES: Yes, I did some — the first time we had a Hali 3 deli— delivered to, um, Graveley as a possible aircraft for Pathfinder Group because at that, at that stage we had Hali 2s, Lancs, Wellingtons, er, all in different squadrons. And Don wanted — was trying to get all his aircraft —
DK: Standardised —
ES: Same aircraft right through the Group, um, but anyway a Hali 3 had been sent to Bos— to Graveley for him to have a try. Well, he’d flown the Hali 2s and 1s, he was an experienced Halifax pilot but there was this Hali 3 he had been sent to try, so just he and I got into the aeroplane, nobody else, and he tried to fly the Hali 3. Well compared to the Hali 1s and 2s with four Merlins, four Hercules were a whole different proposition and one of the flight engineers’ job is following the pilot, as he opens the throttle, keep your hands behind so as if he moves his hands, the throttles won’t go back. And unfortunately, we were on the end of the runway, two of us in the aeroplane, not big fuel, no great fuel load, and he’s sort of half way up and I was following, and suddenly we were airborne. Now that was quite a different experience. Anyway completely opened the throttles, I held them and locked them open or locked them and that was his first experience of the Hali 3 and mine [laugh] but only the two of us in there anyway.
DK: But presumably, he then made the decision not the Hali 3, but go for the Lancaster then, did he?
ES: He flew the Hali 3 and he flew the Lanc.
DK: And he decided on the Lancaster then.
ES: Yeah, he was also — there was some talk of a teed-up Wellington with a pressure cabin.
DK: Oh right.
ES: It was only — I don’t think we even had one with us, I knew it existed and I’d seen pictures of it. They actually put a pressure cabin inside, inside the Wellington. It was quite a high-altitude aeroplane. I think they used it for high altitude research afterwards. Yes, so Don knew what he was doing and wasn’t wor— never worried, it was fine with him. A man than can take a tuner off, the control locks on, flies around Hamburg and land the bloody thing with the stick stuck.
DK: That’s what he did? The control lock was still on?
ES: Yeah.
DK: And he flew to Hamburg and back?
ES: No, he flew, took off from Hamburg. He should have been going to Berlin but he turned round, went round the airfield, and got it back down on the ground again, took off the control locks and flew to berlin on the Berlin shuttle.
DK: On the Berlin airlift.
ES: Yeah.
DK: On the Berlin airlift, yeah.
ES: Yeah. Oh, he knew what he was doing.
DK: So how many operations did you actually fly altogether then?
ES: Hundred and eight. Forty-seven on Wellingtons, on Halifaxes and sixty-one on Lancs. I know they say it isn’t allowed, you shouldn’t last that long. I hadn’t read the statistics [laugh].
DK: Well, if you didn’t know the statistics.
ES: It only happened by chance really. I did my forty-seven on Halifaxes and I was sent to NTU. 7 Squadron had a chop and NTU were asked to supply replacements. I was there, I was one of the replacements. They wanted a replacement, you know, they’d lost a lot of their top end. They wanted experienced people and I — so I was off operations for a few weeks and I was back on the Lancs, um, once I’d got through the — with first with 7 and then, um, 582 was formed, one flight from 7 Squadron and one flight from 156. I went there and, um, I just soldiered on. I was sort of a decoration round the place, I think I was a bit of a show piece. You know, a funny thing, when I did my hundredth operation, I was keeping quiet, I wasn’t making any fuss about it. But I used to help, deal with the crew list for the CO, and there was a young lad coming through as a skipper. He was a bit of a nervous type, he was worried because he was going to do his thirteenth trip. I thought, what the hell, I put myself down as his flight engineer. He came back and, um, we landed back at base and he said, ‘Ah that’s good, I’ve made my — done my thirteenth’, I said, ‘Well done. I’ve done my hundredth’ [laugh].
DK: And that was the first he knew?
ES: That was the first he knew. Nobody had reached three figures before. We’d lost two people at ninety-eight. We never lost one at ninety-nine but we did lose two at ninety-eight.
DK: Was there any recognition for the hundredth operation at all from the squadron or —
ES: Not from the squadron but I think there’s mention, um, in my DSO. I went over my hundredth anyway but, um, that’s really all there was. I got my DSO, I think I was the only flight engineer I think that did.
DK: How do you feel now looking back on that period [unclear] operations?
ES: I was lucky. I don’t know. It was my job. I was in the Air Force for a job and it was part of the job, sort of.
DK: And now if we move to the post war period. I was reading that you went to South America?
ES: Oh, I did the South American trip with Harris, yes.
DK: What was, what was Harris like?
ES: Well, he knew who I was when we got there [laugh]. But it was quite a crazy thing, we didn’t see much of him really. He was the top brass and we were the, we were the tail end. Funny thing is, when we first flew over, we went down to Gambia, went across to Recife, just by the mouth of the Amazon and, um, we had — Harris himself and his, his PA had been in America with the RAF during the war and they had the correct drill for America. They had long — they were in khaki but they had long trousers. We were issued with khaki appropriate to, er, West Africa but we had shorts. Oh dear, when we landed in Brazil, what a kerfuffle, ‘[unclear] get those men back in the aeroplane out of sight’. Anyway, we were pu— pushed back in the aeroplane and, um, the top brass, me, Harris and his little entourage and they were marched off to a decent hotel, and somebody came out to us, ‘Put your trousers on’, and we were allowed to go and get a meal as well [laugh]. It was ridiculous. We didn’t know what was going on.
DK: So, it, so it was three Lancasters you took to Brazil then?
ES: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And how did they perform going across the —
ES: Oh, no problems there. Um, the fuel was — you had to watch the fuel. We weren’t over dressed for it. We didn’t have long range tanks or anything which are available, were avail— or eventually became available for the Lancs, but there was no problem.
DK: So, what was the purpose of the visit then? Was it just an invite for Harris by the Brazilians?.
ES: Brazil was our allies. They had a division fighting in Italy and we were there. We —the division for me — because Brazil did not declare war on Japan, er, mainly because they had too large a Japanese population. The only thing that the Brazilians did about the Japanese is they all had to live at least a hundred kilometres from the coast. That was the Brazilian, um, result of Japan entering the war, um, and their Army only fought in Europe with the American 5th Army and they came back. We were there when they came back. We were flying over them as they went down the main street in Rio, we were over— overhead.
DK: Oh, I see, so it was a kind of com— celebration for the return of their army, in effect?
ES: Er, you mentioned the three Lancs. Well, when we turned round to come back, one of them had engine trouble. It wasn’t my aircraft but of the flight engineers, I was the only one that could change an engine or knew anything about it so I ended up staying behind waiting for the new engine. And the Brazilians were very good, they gave us a lot of coffee beans and they were tied up in the bomb bay and the aeroplane was flown by the 617 Squadron crew, and 617 Squadron took off from the airport at Brazil, at, er, Rio, which is six hours from the, er, air— from the promenade. Um, being 617 Squadron, they didn’t have bomb bays. They weren’t used to bomb, bomb doors so they took off with the bomb doors open (because you always park with the bomb doors open), so they took off with them open and some of us left behind saw them turn out over the harbour and watched our coffee beans descend into the harbour.
DK: Oh no.
ES: One, er, bag didn’t detach and when we got back instead of getting a whole bag of coffee beans which were of course rationed around, almost unavailable in England, we had a two-pound bag of them. But anyway, yeah.
DK: So, after that, is this when you then went for pilot training?
ES: Not immediately, no. I went — I did an engineering officers course, um, I was already, although I was a fitter and a qualified fitter, um, I went on to — down to St Athan, I think for four months, an accelerated engineering officer’s course, filling in the gaps between what I’d been through, what I knew as an apprentice, what I knew as a flight engineer, just filling in the gaps. I come out as a fully trained flight engineering officer which was quite useful in the end. But I went back to the Squadron and I was then on 20, on 24 Squadron, the VIP Squadron, flying Lancastrians, er, VIPs around the place. I managed to save the life of myself, Sir Robert Watson Watts and Ralph Cochrane all in one go. I — if they’d gone down and I’d been with them. We had Lancasters, Lancastrians sorry, but they had a belly tank to increase the range, because the Lanc couldn’t fly the Atlantic, so the Lancastrian couldn’t unless they put long range tanks in the bomb bay. Since it was a [unclear] thing, it wasn’t a proper — it wasn’t a well thought out plan. The filling was, um, on the side of the bomb bay with the — the flight engineer had an extension which you undid a hatch on the bomb bay, took the cap off the, er, tank, put this extension on and then you could fill the fuel up, fill the long range tank up. Good idea. Well, on going to America we were carrying two flight engineers, so I was filling the port wing and the other guy was filling the starboard wing, and I filled my wing and I look down and this bloke who was filing the bomb bay, belly tank seemed to be having a lot of trouble, seemed to be stopping and starting and whatever. So, I went down to see what, you know, the problem was. We were out in the Azores and I don’t speak Portuguese so I was chattering away, took the thing out. No wonder he was having trouble. What was he putting in the tank? Engine oil.
DK: Oh dear.
ES: I had a quick thought, er, I could see us, another one in the Bermuda Triangle. We’d have been somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle when I switched over to that tank. We wouldn’t have gone much further. Anyway, I got him out of the way, and I go the crew and anyone standing around. I got a pan out from the side of the airfield and pushed the thing back and got the wheel, the bit, the tail wheel and a bit more of the fuselage over the grass, got my tool box out [slight laugh], undid the, this false bomb door that we had, it was only two sheets of metal, opened that up. I could then get to the Pulsometer pump, which was used to transfer the, er, petrol as it should have been to the wing. But fortunately, it wasn’t switched on I don’t think. I quickly disconnected it actually in case anybody did switch it on and, um, took the Pulsometer pump off and, er, of course all the oil flowed out, straight onto the grass, er, put the thing back on again, got the fella with the petrol bowser and put a couple of hundred gallons in the tank. I’m not paying [laugh].
DK: It makes you wonder if that happened in the past if —
ES: Oh yes. I think that’s what happened with MacMillan in the Star Tiger. A very similar installation on the, on the Tudor. The Tudor had the tank in the same position.
DK: Because several went missing, didn’t they?
ES: Yeah, well if you put oil in the bloody thing. The Portuguese people, they come out with the tanker and you can’t see what’s in the tanker. But, um, anyway I did, er, swirled this thing out, pumped this fuel, fuel oil mixture out with the Pulsometer pump, got a bucket with, um, pure petrol in, stripped the Pulsometer pump out down to its essential bits, washed out the inside, swirled it round and, um, pumped some, put some more petrol in the tank, swirled it round and hoped for the best, put the Pulsometer pump on and we got to Washington DC on that fuel. Otherwise, there’d be no me, no Sir Robert Watson Watt, no Sir Ralph Cochrane or anybody but, um, that’s what flight engineers are for, aren’t they?
DK: Exactly. I guess they, they never knew. Never knew how close to disaster they came.
ES: No, they were too busy scoffing. We didn’t get a meal, the other engineers and I didn’t get anything to eat at all until the other — Washington, actually Indianapolis. We didn’t stop long in Washington, then we went on to Indianapolis. It’s all a story.
DK: So, it was then soon after that you took the pilot training then, was it?
ES: Yes, ‘47 or, ‘47 I think I took the pilot training.
DK: And ended up on the Neptunes?
ES: No, I ended up on Lancasters.
DK: Oh right. OK.
ES: At first. As soon as I took the pilots course, I thought, ‘What’s going to happen now?’ Well, I’d been on Transport Command, been on Bomber Command. Oh, put him on Coastal Command. And what do they give him to fly? A Lancaster. And, um, I was flight commander on 217 Squadron and I was off to the States [slight laugh].
DK: And so how did it feel now you were a pilot of a Lancaster, after so many operations as a flight engineer?
ES: It seemed quite natural, though I must admit, when I first went as a pilot for the conversion course, as a pilot up to Kinloss, I had the first instruction for pilot. I’ll teach him all about the Lanc. He can teach me all about the Lanc [laugh], He knew who I was and I knew who he was [laugh].
DK: He couldn’t teach you much then?
ES: Eh?
DK: He couldn’t teach you much?
ES: Well, he didn’t bother. I sat there and listened to it all. You got to show willing and, er, that’s how it went
DK: So, once you converted to the Neptunes then, what were they like?
ES: A dream, a dream. You could do anything with them. They had these spoilers in the wing. When you put the spoilers on, when you put thing on, it went vroom. Of course, when we first got the Neptunes, all the top people wanted to fly them so we had a, a group of MPs come up to Kinloss to see us and find out all about these new aeroplanes. We didn’t, they were not our aeroplanes, the Neptunes, the RAF never owned any Neptunes. They were only on loan waiting, because the Sund— the Shackletons were late on delivery and these were taken as, in a sort of stop gap until we got — Avro got their finger out, started producing Shackletons. I quite enjoyed flying the Neptune. Nicest aeroplane I’d ever flown.
DK: Did you get to fly the Shackleton then, eventually?
ES: No. It was just a heavy Lancaster. The Neptune was a whole different ball game, you could do things with that.
DK: Do you think the Nim— Shack— Neptune should have been used instead of the Shackleton then?
ES: It was — the Neptunes were loaned, loan to us until we could get enough Shackletons delivered. They were only on loan. They went back to the States and went on loan to somebody else no doubt. Other — the Aussies they picked up two Shackletons, two Neptunes at the same time. They weren’t bare backed robbers but they bought theirs.
DK: Do you think we should have bought the Neptune then?
ES: I think they were better. I think it would have been a better deal than the Shackleton ever was. To give you an example, er, Churchill was coming back from America on one of the Queens, and the idea was that the RAF should go out to the mid-Atlantic and beyond to welcome him, and this was the plan and I was sitting in the mess having breakfast and saw the Shackleton taking off to meet Winny. Then I finished my breakfast, went down to flight, did my briefing, got into the aeroplane, flew off and once we got the Queen on radar I, we homed in over the Queen and then I looked on the radar and, oh yes, there’s a Shackleton coming in. We’d guide him in to —
DK: Because they were so much slower.
ES: Slower? They didn’t — they only had one speed. You see, we used to transit at ten thousand feet which gives you a much better air speed, but they did everything at about two thousand, the Shackleton, which gives us about a hundred miles an hour advantage at ten thousand. And, um, so anyway we guided them and we had a fly round the Queen and, um, Churchill could see them and then it was time for them to go. So, they went off there. We watched them go and a little bit later, we flew off and I was back in the mess when the Shackletons landed [laugh]. That’s the difference you see. They were no faster on attack really. I was going to tell you, when we first got the Neptune, a group MPs came up to have a look at it. My squadron commander, he was a hard drinking man, so we, after they arrived so I left, er, I had a dinner with them, and spoke to them and that and left the squadron commander to take care of them. He was quite happy drinking all night. Oh, that car’s — the car’s just driven two houses up and stopped there. Never mind, it’s not in your way. But anyway, they had there thing in the mess and the next morning they were going for a flight. Well, one of the things the Neptune could do which the Shackleton never got round to doing, was rocket attacks, [unclear] sixteen rockets, sort of equivalent of two, um, salvos from a cruiser and for a rocket attack on an aircraft, ship or submarine, your flying indicators about twelve hundred feet, and you put the nose down to about seventy degrees, take aim, fire the rockets. They were very, very accurate too. I say, to practice we had old wrecks of cars out on the range. You expect to hit a car with a rocket. It’s not that big a target but you hit a car with a rocket, a ship will be a big problem because of course the salvos, that car doesn’t fire back at you, but, um, we’d got two 20 mm cannons and a nose sight and they can do some damage. Anyway, so I take these MPs up and they’d had a good night out the night before [laugh], and I was flying at a thousand feet and we’re going into attack, vroom, MPs on the ceiling [laugh] and we go in and attack, fire the rocket, horrible. You got to have fun, you got to have your fun somehow.
DK: Were the MPs impressed by that?
ES: I don’t know [laugh]. They were quite quiet when we came back [laugh].
DK: I can imagine.
ES: Not used to big aeroplanes. They liked fighters. But I had fun.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then? What year would that have been?
ES: Oh dear. Oh, I just managed to — it was Army, aft— after, um, flight commander at 617. I spent some time doing my stint as a ground eng— ground fitter, a ground officer. I was quite lucky. I got rather a cushy number for my two years. I was posted out to Germany as adjutant with an AOP Squadron with Austers, and, um, it was when I finished my, just finishing my two years out there when the Army MO called me in for the annual medical, and he said, ‘You’re too deaf to fly’, And that was it. Oh yes, a bloody Army bloke, a Pongo got me out. Actually, he didn’t get me out, he said, ‘You’re unfit to fly’. The Air Force said, ‘You can stay in in your current rank until you reach retirement age’. Well, I was thirty-five, I didn’t want to do another twenty bloody years doing bugger all, nothing interesting, so I elected to take an early retirement. Been drawing a pension ever since. I’ve been drawing my RAF pension, this is the first month of my sixty-first year of drawing a pension.
DK: Excellent. Well, I think on that note we’ll —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Three
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE161013, PStockerEE1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:11:31 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ted joined the air force in January 1938 as an apprentice at RAF Halton. This was accelerated because of the war, and he was posted to RAF Boscombe Down.
Although he wanted to be a pilot, Ted’s skills were needed as a flight engineer. He was posted to 35 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse in 1940 where he encountered Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire. Later that year, Ted found a crew and aircraft and started operations over Germany. After only four operations, he went to instruct pilots and flight engineers on Halifaxes at 102 Squadron.
Ted was posted to Pathfinders 35 Squadron and was the first flight engineer to be commissioned. After 47 operations, he volunteered and was sent for training as a mid-upper gunner to a Pathfinder Training Unit and 7 Squadron, who needed experienced people. He had to learn about Lancasters, which he compares in some detail to Halifaxes.
Ted outlines the work of the Pathfinders and how the system became more sophisticated. He encountered Donald Bennett and once flew with him, as well as flying with Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris to Brazil.
Ted flew 108 operations (47 on Halifaxes and 61 on Lancasters). He was awarded a Distinguished Service Order.
Ted did an engineering officers’ course at RAF St Athan, followed by 24 Squadron, a VIP transport squadron, flying Lancastrians.
After pilot training in 1947, Ted was flight commander on 217 squadron. He flew Neptunes, which he compares favourably to Shackletons. Ted was then posted to Germany for two years as adjutant with an Air Observation Post squadron and flew Austers. He left the RAF because of impaired hearing.
Temporal Coverage
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1938
1940
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
582 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
Distinguished Service Order
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancastrian
military service conditions
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
RAF Linton on Ouse
Shackleton
Stirling
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/POatleyK1701.2.jpg
be795ca0b07853007aa77c562bfeb00c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/AOatleyK170321.1.mp3
9f337a41a3840e6e82e8841355f9d0a1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oatley, Ken
K Oatley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Oatley (b. 1922). He flew operations as a navigator with 627 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Oatley, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: I’ll just introduce myself, so, this is, this is David Kavanagh introduce, interviewing Ken Oatley at his home [file missing] borne, 21st of March 2017. So, I’ll just put that down there.
KO: Surely.
DK: Hang on, If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working
KO: Still functioning,
DK: Still functioning, yeah. It’s, it can be a bit temperamental at times, that looks, that looks ok. [unclear] that. I’ll just like to ask so first of all, what were you doing before the war?
KO: I was going to be a professional violinist.
DK: Really?
KO: My father, I won a scholarship to the Royal Academy when I was fifteen,
DK: Right.
KO: But I had no one to live with in London so I had to put it off for another year, then I had to take an examination that year to get the exhibition the year after that which actually brought me up too far close to the war and, even then, I had a year to go before I could get into the Air Force so I joined the Home Guard, did my duties as far as I could from then, and at that time, it was the 13th of September I think of ’39 that I was in headquarters and the phone rang and call out all the home guard, we’re anticipating the invasion immediately, so that passed over of course and October came and I thought, well, really it’s time and I just was old enough then to volunteer so I volunteered for aircrew in October of 1940.
DK: [unclear] back to me, when you were in the Home Guard, what were your sort of roles then? What were you actually doing, were you guarding anything or?
KO: No, I was in headquarters most of the time, but I had to take out messages or anything that required, you know, but I was there nights and so forth.
DK: So were you mostly young men there waiting to be called up or sort of [unclear]?
KO: No, no, they were all a lot much older than me.
DK: Alright. Alright, so you applied then to the Air Force, so
KO: Mh.
DK: It was always your intention then to,
KO: I always wanted to fly.
DK: Alright. Yeah, so did you actually go into pilot training then?
KO: Yes, in, I started flying in April of ’41, it was April so, anyway. And did the usual six weeks at Blackpool and then waiting for a course to come around they sent me to Northern Ireland guarding an auxiliary airfield there against the IRA and then in Maytime they sent me over then to Scone, that Scone, there was at, oh God! This is, my memory is, north of, in Scotland,
DK: Ah, ok.
KO: On the east coast top, anyhow that was the biggest town north. We were there prepared to go down to ITW then at Scarborough, by, by June then I was flying from Sealand on the wirrell
DK: What type of aircraft were you flying?
KO: Tiger Moths.
DK: Ah!
KO: Which I did, I loved flying and I had the aptitude for it and I really thoroughly enjoyed my time there, it was wonderful.
DK: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
KO: Oh, I liked it very much and I, our last hour or two that we had on the course, my friend and I, we were supposed to be going out for three quarters of an hour flight at night in the evening, come back and report and then go back and do another three quarters of an hour so I said to my mate, well, this is a bit of a waste of time, I’ll meet you over the river Dee and we’ll have a dogfight, which we did. When time came to, to come back to report in, he disappeared and I thought, well, I don’t know where the heck I am [laughs], we wandered about somewhat for three quarters of an hour so I had, eventually I had to give up and I saw a farm with smoke coming out of the chimney and I decided, well, that looks alright so I made a forced landing into this field, knocking out a host of surveyors posts on the way down and a ditch that was half way across which I hadn’t noticed. Anyhow I landed there and a motorcyclist came in and I got out and spread my map on his handle bars and asked him where I was and he gave to, I was in the middle of Lancashire so I flew back and,
DK: You’ve gone that far south?
KO: Yes. So, anyway, I was up for the wing code the next morning,
DK: Were you able to take off out the field then?
KO: Yeah, I did, half the field
DK: Yeah, so that was
KO: It was,
DK: Damaged the aircraft?
KO: No, no, it was a bit dodgy, there was a wood at the end of the field and I just caught the width to the corner of it and I managed to get through, anyway we landed there and the next morning I was up in front of the CO and charged which it was going to be a court martial but he let me go on [unclear] cause I was the first one to solo [unclear] thirties so I thought, you know, I’m made for this and so I was taken off the Spitfight posting and ended up in Canada flying Oxfords. We were on the Oxfords for some while and then there was, Bennett was just do the Pathfinders setup and he had no navigators, only map readers really, observers, don’t tell him I [unclear], but he had no navigators so he took five pilots off of every pilots course in Canada, brought us home to do the Middle course on the navigators, then go onto flying,
DK: So, you were actually on a pilot’s course in Canada.
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Got called off by Bennett,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Because he needed navigators,
KO: Yeah,
DK: How did you feel about that at the time?
KO: Not very happy, I must admit, but anyway.
DK: How were you chosen, was it almost a lottery or?
KO: Well, I don’t know, I think probably I wasn’t landing them very well. I came down [unclear], the approach was hundred percent, I touched down on the wheels, nice and quietly, as soon as the tailwheel had dropped, which off the runway we’d had, my instructor never once told me that I should be doing three point landings, never mentioned, then when the CFI took me up, I did the same thing and he then asked my instructor whether he’d taught me three point landings, of course he said, oh yes, of course he has, and so I was one of the five that got tucked out.
DK: So, it might have been poor training on the trainer’s part, not I suppose, [unclear]
KO: Well, I mean, it seems simple enough, things say you should be doing three-point landings. I landed quietly and smoothly, you know, and,
DK: And this would have been the Oxford, would it?
KO: Yeah, yes. Anyhow I came back home, nearly torpedoed on the way home.
DK: Can you remember which ship you came back on?
KO: [unclear] Dam and just out of Halifax I was on my sway hammock and there was an enormous bang, I thought, my God, we’d been torpedoed, and I bet, I was four flights down and I bet I was, tops of that before anybody else [laughs]. However, there happened to be a torpedo, a destroyer had come alongside and for no apparent reason, and he happened just to take the torpedo and the thing was sunk with all hands and we just carried on, there was fire
DK: You can’t remember the name of the destroyer that was lost?
KO: No, no, no.
DK: No. Did you actually see it go down or?
KO: No,
DK: No.
KO: But we were told.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But you see, we were in two passengers, well, one was obviously a passenger ship and we were in a sort of half and half but there were five hundred aircrew on board ships, then we had several destroyers flying around us all the way back across the Atlantic. It took three weeks coming home cause we went all over the place and got back to England and put me on the navigation course which we did one course at Grand Hotel, oh, Eastbourne,
DK: Right. Yep, yep.
KO: Six weeks and then we were sent off on a ship again, I thought, we are going back to Canada again, which I didn’t like cause I got engaged to a girl in Canada while I was out there. Anyway, we went to South Africa and I was, from start to finish it was nearly eight months, wasted out of my flying time, going down there, doing the course and coming back again and we spent three weeks at Clairwood race course in tents. Then they moved us to East London and we were there for another six weeks and while we were there I met somebody there quite out of the blue, he asked me what we did, what our hobbies were, said well, I played the violin, oh, he said, I know somebody who’d be interested in you so he took me up the road to this gentleman and he said, would you like to play me something? So I played him one of the better class pieces that I used to perform and he said, would you like to play with the municipal orchestra on Sunday? This was Thursday, so I did that and did that the following month, so that was the virtually, the last time I played the violin at all, really.
DK: So you never played it since then?
KO: No, not really, no.
DK: No, no.
KO: So, anyway we got back and messed about for ages and I did,
DK: How did you feel when all this was going on, you were going to South Africa [unclear] was there a certain amount of frustration or?
KO: Yes I, you know, it was very enjoyable,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But it wasn’t what I wanted to do. Anyway we got back and there was so many aircrew trained here messing about Bournemouth was full of them all the time, they didn’t know what to do with us, anyhow we ended up at Harrogate, we were sent off on a commander course to start with at Whitley Bay, six weeks and then they sent me up to Scone to sit in the back seat of a Tiger Moth with a [unclear] recently qualified pilot in front and I was another six weeks messing about there, well, that was barely started the navigation course properly so I don’t think I was gonna get there.
DK: Was navigation something you took to easily, was it?
KO: Oh yes, I was, no worries about that, and then I was onto OTU and from what I understand I was, uhm, was the top of the class in both flying and ground subjects and,
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was you went to?
KO: I can never remember the name of it, was north of Oxford.
DK: Right. Is not in there, in the logbook.
KO: It would be, I suppose. It’s more likely in the back of my pilot’s, pack of pilot’s
DK: That one.
KO: But in the back,
DK: Oh, right, ok. So, what year are we talking about now then? It’s,
KO: That’ll be ’42.
DK: ’42, alright. So that’s the Oxford, so that’s ’41, ’74, you are still flying in ’74.
KO. Oh that’s, that’s flying here.
DK: Right.
KO: It’ll be very, very close to, no, but it wouldn’t be in there, yes, on the back, on the back page, I got all the
DK: Ah, right.
KO: All the,
DK: Ah, right, ok, so ’40,
KO: In, here, up here.
DK: [unclear] ’43.
KO: And here.
DK: 16.
KO: 16.
DK: Ah, right, so, I’ll just say this for the benefit of the tape so it’s 16 OTU Upper Hayford. So you were there from the 10th of August 1943,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Then we went onto Scampton and then to Swinderby.
DK: And that was,
KO: On Stirlings
DK: 16
KO: We did Wellingtons at
DK: 16 OTU
KO: 16 OTU,
DK: Yeah,
KO: And then we went on the Stirlings
DK: And that was at Swinderby
KO: Yes and then the Lancs
DK: Right, so, at 1660 Conversion Unit, Swinderby, that was the Stirlings.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah, and then at Syerston,
KO: Yes,
Dk: That was 5 Lancaster finishing school.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, at Upper Hayford was the Wellingtons?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yes, so what was your feeling about the Wellington then as an aircraft?
KO: Oh, fine and my pilot that I had there, although he hadn’t all that many arrows in, he was fine and we got on very well, our crew was first class and everything we did, we were quite well appraised for.
DK: So how did your crew get together then?
KO: Oh, we all, they put us in a hangar and said, I’m sorry, sort yourselves out, so to speak, you know.
DK: You just found yourselves a pilot,
KO: Yes, from
DK: Do you think that worked well?
KO: Yes, it did in our case.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I had an excellent crew and I was very sorry that we went on from there to Metheringham,
DK: Right.
KO: With Gibson squadron.
DK: 106 Squadron.
KO: And my pilot went on a Second Dickey trip with his, with a crew that were on their last operation,
DK: Right.
KO: And failed to return. So, we were sent back to Scampton again in to be recrewed. If they’d given us another pilot, which would have been more sensible, they split the whole crew up as far as I can [unclear] gave us another crew of odd bodies that they had and he wasn’t too bad, he wasn’t as good as my other pilot, you know, they were a little bit lumpy, but see my trouble was, my navigator’s seat was well back from the front and as I remember it seems I had a little office of my own now, the only,
DK: This was the Wellington,
KO: Stirling.
DK: Stirling, right, ok.
KO: And my only chance of talking to the pilot was on the intercom.
DK: Right.
KO: So I never was anywhere near him. It was when we got on to Syerston to the Lancaster, I was sitting right behind him as you realised and he had the most dreadful body odour that you could ever imagine, it really was out of this world,
DK: Oh dear,
KO: And so I took the crew up to the wing commander after we’d just sort of finished the early stages with the Lanc and I said, I can’t fly with this bloke, we all agreed, nearly court martialled, I [unclear] go for, go for a [unclear] you know and anyway we sent back to Scampton again and,
DK: So, you’ve gone back to Scampton for a third time.
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: Alright. When you, just going back to 106, you never met Gibson then, did you?
KO: No.
DK: I, just for the, slightly confusing that for the tape, just for the benefit of the tape, what I’ll say here is where you were, so initially it was Upper Hayford with 16 OTU from the 10th of August 1943, then it was Scampton 15th of December ’43, then 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby from the 8th of February ’44 on Stirlings,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school at Syerston,
KO: Yes.
DK: from 28th of March ’44, obviously on Lancasters, then 106 Squadron your pilot went missing as a Second Dickey, so back to Scampton again, then Swinderby,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school, Syerston again,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then back to Scampton because it’s problems with the pilot,
KO: Yes. On 106.
DK: On 106, and then on, I’ve got here, then onto 627, so that was, that’s the next question,
KO: Yes, yeah.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, you’ve complained about your pilot then and what happened then?
KO: Oh, they didn’t do him any harm or anything, I’m just, my memory gets so bad at times, other times I can go with, like, you know, what was the question?
DK: It was, you’re back at Scampton and you complained about the pilot, cause of the body odour,
KO: Yes.
DK: So what happened then?
KO: Well, straight away I was sent to Woodhall Spa from there.
DK: Right, ok. And that’s with 627 Squadron.
KO: 627 Squadron, yes.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, what were you flying at 627 then?
KO: Mosquitoes.
DK: Yeah. What did you think about the Mosquito?
KO: Oh, marvellous.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Yes, I, never complaints about the Mosquito.
DK: Was it a bit of a shock when you’ve gone from four engine bombers?
KO: It was lovely.
DK: Yeah. So you,
KO: Oh. Beautiful.
DK: So you never flew any operations on the four engine bombers?
KO: No, not again, no, no, no. It was all on the Mosquitoes from there on.
DK: Alright.
KO: And then of course the first, the move from Metheringham to Woodhall Spa was like chalk and cheese, you know, [unclear] it, well, every moment we, there we enjoyed the flying and the operational side of it and,
DK: Yeah.
KO: It was just something once in a lifetime, you know.
DK: What was Woodhall Spa like as an airfield then?
KO: It was big enough for what we wanted cause they were flying 617 from there as well so they had to cover the twenty thousand pound bomb weight on runways cause it was just a small camp, on the outside there was no main buildings to it at all, we were very much countryfied.
DK: Did you go to the Petwood Hotel at all?
KO: No, that was 617’s privilege that was,
DK: Ah, right.
KO: We were in the Nissen huts.
DK: [laughs] oh, ok.
KO: Which was a bit of a comedown.
DK: Did you get to know anyone of the 617 crew?
KO: I did but I can’t remember the names now. [laughs] Funnily enough, one of the well known ones that flew with Gibson on the dams, I went into the sergeants mess one day and he was playing cards with a table full of crews there for 617 and he said, can you lend me a pound? So, I lend him the pound, never expecting to get it back again, when I came out of the Air Force about four years after that, I happened to be standing in front of my restaurant in Northampton and who should come in? This chap I’d lent the pound to. So, I caught him and I got me pound back on it [laughs].
DK: [unclear] oh excellent, [laughs], well he did owe it to you.
KO: Yeah, having done the dams raid he was lucky to.
DK: Yeah. So, you can’t remember who that was then now?
KO: I, a flash came into my head, I got an idea whose name, was Monroe, was it?
DK: Les Monroe? Yeah, Les Monroe.
KO: Yeah.
DK: The New Zealander?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah. He owed you a pound [laughs].
KO: Yeah. He just walked in the shop, not knowing I was there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I just recognized, I said, hey you.
DK: I actually met Les a couple of times when he came over to UK, last few years. So, you’re now on a Mosquito squadron, so what was your actual role then as 627 Squadron, what were you?
KO: We were at 99 percent for marking, for main force.
DK: Right.
KO: And we were the only squadron that did what we did. We were way ahead of everybody else, and we had to dive, we introduced dive bomb marking which was not heard of before 627 Squadron was formed. But they started off the first two or three months joining in with the, flying backwards and forwards to Berlin in those days and then when we moved up with 617 Squadron, we started doing what we did, that was our thing, and that was flying ahead of main force and being there three minutes before the actual time we needed to be there because that was ten minutes between, let me try to explain it a different way, the flares, the target was illuminated by one or two squadrons of Lancasters from our station to drop thousands of luminating shares over the target area and five of us went out separately to the target and stood off until the first markers went down illuminating, lights went down and on the, dead on the spot, they were there ten minutes before the time for bombing and we went in, in that ten minutes under the flares, dive bombed the marker onto the target for about, well, anything from three, two, three hundred feet, from fifteen hundred feet and it was purely up to the pilot because he dropped the bomb, the had a china graph pencil mark on his windscreen and he, that was his only guide he had to drop his markers, and they used to put that according to how they saw it in height and that sort of thing that needed to be very careful and then we would drop off the markers at about two hundred feet, something like that.
DK: Two hundred feet.
KO: Well, we, we flew round Dresden at three or four hundred feet, probably five hundred feet for nearly ten minutes.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So, the illuminators went in first,
KO: Yes.
DK: They illuminated the target area.
KO: Yes.
DK: So you could then see where to drop your
KO: That’s right.
DK: drop your indicators by
KO: Yes.
DK: [unclear] moving on the target.
KO: Yes.
DK: And then the main force came in.
KO: After that, yes.
DK: Yeah. So, how was that controlled then? Was it?
KO: Just on timing.
DK: Literally on timing, so there’s no one there.
KO: No, no, no, no, we had to be there three minutes before the, ten minutes if you like,
DK: Right, yeah.
KO: Thirteen minutes, three minutes we had to get in our track in to go in and do our dive in.
DK: Right.
KO: That was just for error, for coming from, over from Holland down to Dresden, we had that little margin of difference, so at ten to the target, the Lancasters then came in, they had ten minutes to bomb on the markers that we had laid.
DK: So, can, just stepping back one bit, can you remember where your first operation was to then?
KO: Uhm, Bremen.
DK: Bremen. And how many operations did you actually do then?
KO: I, we did twenty-two operations altogether.
DK: Twenty-two.
KO: They were spread over a little bit but, see we only did, we had enough crews that we only did one every five.
DK: Right.
KO. We had thirty crew, thirty crew men on the, for fifteen aircraft and we only ever sent five aircraft out on an operation, so we had, there was, sort of,
DK: It’s quite a long period between flight then,
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: So, can you remember when the tour started and when it ended, how long it was for, roughly?
KO: The first tour?
DK: Yeah.
KO: I’m having a particular bad day today, I don’t know why it is, but, oh Jesus! [laughs] I’m lost.
DK: Is it, will it be recorded in here anywhere?
KO: Yes, it was about, the middle, the middle of June-July of forty
DK: ’44.
KO: ’44.
DK: Ok, here we go, yeah, so, that’s 627 Squadron
KO: Yes.
DK: At Woodhall Spa.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, on the 25th of July
KO: Yes.
DK: ’44, so that’s all practice
KO: Yes. Our night operations were in red.
DK: Right.
KO: So, we did, only did one in every three.
DK: Ok, that way we’ll, so, that’s all practice so, uhm, cross country, practice.
KO: We practiced at least five times for every operation we did.
DK: Alright. Ok, so we got off ways to see if we got Gladbach, that’s Monchen Gladbach presumably.
KO: So, that was where Gibson got lost,
DK: Right, alright, ok.
KO: So, that was his own fault.
DK: [laughs] We’ll come back to that in a minute. Ok, [unclear]
KO: Yes, I think we did four in one week, which was an exceptional.
DK: Right.
KO: My first op was a day run to L’Isle-de-Adam, a bomb dump north of Paris. We had a fairly leisurely time as you can see.
DK: I see there is an awful lot of practice between the actual raids, isn’t it?
KO: Yeah, it was about five, one in five. Really, what brought that about was we had to have the aircraft on for that night, and they had to have a morning test before,
DK: Right.
KO: And we used the test to go and do a bombing run on the sands at
DK: [unclear]
KO: [unclear], yeah.
DK: So, navigation then and timing clearly needs to be very accurate.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But we didn’t do anything really, we flew, normal thing was that we flew out to Holland and turned from just over the coast of Holland, turned down to the, wherever we were going, from there it was, we had no troubles [unclear], we went more or less our own way, we knew what time we had to be there and that but.
DK: So, I think this is your first operation the 6th of October ’44 to Bremen.
KO: That was the first time when we used our dive bomb technique.
DK: Right, ok.
KO: It was, they didn’t know really what it was gonna be like and they told the CO that he wasn’t to go on that operation.
DK: Oh, alright. So, then you got the Mittelland Canal on the 6th of November ’44.
KO: They were easy.
DK: So, it’s got bolted flares over [unclear]. And then you’ve got, 21st of November the Dortmund-Ems Canal.
KO: Mhm, there were two or three of those.
DK: And then I’ve got here the 13th of December ’44, the Cologne and Emden ships cruisers.
KO: Yes, that was in, that was in the Oslofjord, but they moved them by the time we got up there and it was a wasted trip.
DK: So, this is [unclear] called off by marker one.
KO: Yes, well.
DK: So, it was a
KO: I can, this, as I was saying to my friend today, I’ve worried about that ever since and I cannot understand because I was absolutely dead on track all the way up there, I said the only thing I can excuse myself in is that the pilot was running ten miles an hour, he was on three hundred and twenty instead of three hundred and thirty and he would jump down my throat if I suggested that but I couldn’t find no other reason for being late cause we were dead on course for everything.
DK: Yeah, [unclear] this, that’s [unclear].
KO: That’s, that was stacked down for a purpose. Probably made a mess of it so.
DK: So, then we got 14th of January ’45 and it’s oil refinery at Mersberg. So, that’s and it’s got here two times one thousands, so that’s two one thousand pound bombs.
KO: Yeah.
DK: And the red target indicators. So that’s [unclear] what you’ve dropped and. So, then it’s 2nd of February ’45 Karlsruhe. It says target obscured by cloud. Sky marking only.
KO: Yes.
DK: So then, 2nd of Feb, Dortmund.
KO: Dortmund.
DK: It says one target marked.
KO: I’m doing well, aren’t I? [laughs]
DK: And then, 8th of Feb, Politz-Stettin, oil refinery. Stettin oil refinery, yeah. And then the 13th of Feb ’45, ops Dresden. Marker two. And then backed up, one one thousand pounder, red TI. So, just talking about that then, what actually happened on the Dresden raid? Was..
KO: Well, the, there was a trade wind blowing to start with and normally, starting off from home, we would climb to the operating height, going out and we would take a fix every three minutes and find an average wind which we would calculate to fly us on from there to Dresden. But this MIG wasn’t working particularly well and when we got to the turning point, it was a question of hops and choices to how you carried on from there. So I part guessed well I could [unclear] what I’d got already to choose from and then I realised that the thing that we had installed in the aircraft which I’d never used before, I’d never been instructed on because it was introduced while I was on leave, I thought, well, I’ll give it a go and see if I hadn’t have the charts with me and so, I took him, took him down on that, bearing as it was, there was a line running straight through Dresden that I could put up on the machine, that was terrible cause on a Gee box you had to two stroves running like that, but on this particular case, when I went on to the LORAN, it was like that and right across the thing as you couldn’t tell which was which, you had to take a guess at it and fortunately I guessed right and I didn’t navigate all the way down there. I just kept on one line and then I could, guide him down along this line all the way down to Dresden and then there was a one, there was another line crossing the second line there which went through Dresden and as soon as I kept switching backwards and forwards to that, and when that line came up, I said, right-oh Jock, we’re here now. We were three minutes early and doing the right one turn, another one [unclear] the arrival and then the main force came, we had the, the uhm, the squadrons that were dropping in there, illuminating flares came in at ten to eleven and we were just on the edge of the city, sitting there, waiting for them. We had to put those down and then we went in and dived in and we were just, just about to call out marker two, tally-ho, and number one tally-ho didn’t just in front of us so we had to go round again and
DK: So you, so marker one got his markers in first
KO: He was the flight commander anyway,
DK: Right, ok.
KO: So, couldn’t, he couldn’t
DK: Right. So, your markers then were the second to go.
KO: Yes.
DK: Right.
KO: Btu we were the most accurate.
DK: Right.
KO: On that.
DK: And how low would you’ve been when you dropped the markers?
KO: About three hundred feet.
DK: As low as that.
KO: Well, we were so low, that as we flew away from there, my pilot was looking back to see if he could see where they’d dropped and I had a shout at him because we were just gonna hit the spires of the cathedral, so I had to pull him up on that one. And then we just circled around Dresden for three or four minutes at five hundred feet and then we came home.
DK: And did you see much of the main force bombing then in that five minutes?
KO: They just started to bomb,
DK: Right.
KO: And I think they let a couple of four hundred, four thousand pounders off as we weren’t all that high and we could feel the, [unclear] get out quick now
DK: I just, for the benefit of the tape, I just read what it says here, so, 13th of Feb ’45, you took off at 2000 as, Mosquito F, so your pilot was flying officer Walker and your navigator so it says, ops Dresden, marker two, which you mentioned backed up, so is that meaning you backed up marker one?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Well, we got in, it was a football stadium
DK: Right.
KO: We got our marker in the football stadium.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: And the others were in a bunch, nearly [unclear] a hundred yards,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Way but,
DK: So, your second ones down was actually the more accurate and then it’s got one thousand, so you got a thousand-pound bomb and red
KO: They were a thousand-pound flares.
DK: Oh sorry, so you dropped one-thousand-pound red target indicators
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Sorry, yeah, so one thousand red target indicator. And you
KO: And the others all backed up after that.
DK: Yeah. So, you arrived back at 0540?
KO: I know my, my history today to you doesn’t sound very much but on my claim for a commission, my squadron commander and the camp squadron commander both put down that we were the best crews, one of the best crews of the squadron.
DK: Oh!
KO: We did do well, I mean, we felt that we, if we dropped our markers that was bloody well close on it and of course the last operation we did was at Tonsberg oil refinery at the
DK: Right.
KO: The, first up towards Oslo and
DK: So, were all the operations with Walker?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was he a good pilot?
KO: He was a good pilot and he was good at dropping the bombs too. We were the best on that one as well. But, I know it sounds terrible, our successes and that sort of thing but sometimes they went right and sometimes they didn’t and sometimes if our radar wasn’t working up to scratch, we
DK: So, when you were briefed for Dresden then, it was just an ordinary briefing
KO: Yes.
DK: And an ordinary target.
KO: Yes. When I was allocated onto a new job I’d only been on the squadron about six weeks, two months when I was sent to RAF Wyton 1409 Met Flight
DK: Right.
KO: For a two week crash course on wind reporting then I found myself that we were doing a big operation in south Germany and we had to stop at Manston to refuel and my job then was to decide two hundred miles from the target whether it was gonna be satisfactory for the main force to continue on to attack the target and if I didn’t think it was gonna be satisfactory, my job was to call them out and send them home.
DK: So, you’ve gone out and checked the weather in effect then.
KO: No, that was all we were supposed to be doing,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But fortunately the fog came down and we were, the thing was called off. It was never reinstated again but I think that somebody up a loft had said, well, this is a bloody silly idea in the first place.
DK: That, was that with 1409 Met Flight?
KO: Oh, that was where I was sent for those two-week crash course.
DK: Right, ok. Ok, so you’ve done the training at 1409 Met course.
KO: What there was there of it.
DK: Yeah. So, you, did you get?
KO: I was
DK: Did you get back to Manston then or?
KO: Oh yeah, yes, well we uhm, I think we came in that night, I think we came into, probably into Woodbridge.
DK: Alright. Cause there’s one here you’ve been here the 12th of October ’44, it says from Manston, yeah. You went to Manston the day before. So that idea of going out early and
KO: Cause we used the wing tanks up, you see, we needed all the petrol that we could carry to get there and back so we’d use the wing tanks up going down to Manston until we had to refuel then and while that was being done, we were a little bit early, the fog came down and the whole thing was scrubbed.
DK: Alright. That’s what it’s saying here that you remained at Manston. Yeah. So, just going on here then, 16th of March ’45, Wurzburg, ops to Wurzburg.
KO: Wurzburg.
DK: Yeah, so you’re marker two. So, one thousand [unclear] red target indicator, one one thousand yellow target indicators,
KO: That’s what we carried.
DK: Right. But we carried a red, yellow and a green, as the Germans had a funny act of if the red ones went down they’d light another red one up somewhere away from it, you see, to distract it, so we’d have to go back in again and drop the green beside the red or whatever and
DK: Is this when you’ve got the master bomber’s there then that were telling
KO: Yeah, the master bomber’s up there.
DK: Yeah. So he’s then telling who, the rest of the main force who, which coloured markers to bomb. Has he mentioned you on the same operation that Gibson was lost on
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: You didn’t know him cause he flew a 627 Mosquito force [unclear], didn’t he?
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: You didn’t meet him there then?
KO: I’ve met him on several occasions but, you know, not sort of personally, we were, [unclear] had social occasion or on one occasion he tried to, he came into our little bar, as you can imagine, we were in Nissen huts and they were all posh in and they came down to our officer’s mess and we, that was an airman’s hut actually, the whole mess, and the kitchen that was all part of it but we had no bar arrangements or that, so we had a builder of one of the boys in the squadron, so he built the bar and built a fire in there for us so we could have an officer’s drinking area. And one night my pilot and three Australians were in there having a drink and the door opened and Gibson appears and nobody sort of moved and he came, don’t you normally stand to attention and when a senior officer comes in? And they looked at each other, said, no, no, no. So, anyway, he created such a fuss, they grabbed hold of him, took him outside, took his trousers off and told him not to come in again. The next morning, there was an officer’s parade which he officiated, went down the line and of course the Australians all six foot something in their dark uniforms and my pilot who was a real dural Scotsman,
DK: This was Walker, was it?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
KO: He was standing at the end of the line and he got him and he put him in the glasshouse for three weeks. So, he didn’t remain very popular with our crowd.
DK: Alright.
KO: So I was flying odd bits with anybody who was needing it, the navigator, flew all that three weeks when he was
DK: Well that, I mean, that meant you had another pilot you had to fly with then that. So you, you weren’t too pleased about that then?
KO: Well, we didn’t [unclear]
DK: Alright, ok. They were just
KO: I might have gone on a night flying test.
DK: Alright, so you didn’t do any operations while he was in [unclear]
KO: No, I mean, I had a very, very nice round of it really, I mean, some of the ops we did, we, yeah, you had to have your head on and I was, I was considered to be one of the better navigators although it didn’t sound like it. You know, you don’t know the circumstances of how things go.
DK: So, what was it like then if you were, you know, you are flying the Mosquito there, you’re over enemy territory, what does it feel like, it’s very dark and you’re being shot at?
KO: Well, we weren’t being shot at, that was just the point you see. Everybody else, the main force went out on allocated circuit. We went out, there was only five of us, we went out and more or less did it the way we thought we would, we didn’t stick to any plan as long as we were there sort of three minutes before the flares went down
DK: Right
KO: Thirteen minutes before the bombers came in. So rise up and up and when cross sort of thing on the machine I said right-oh, Jock, we’re here now and three minutes early, do a right one turn, wind off three minutes and that should bring us on time, that moment in time, the flares started to come down and we turned to going to find the thing and the number one saw it just as, we were just, there’s a story in my book there, he pressed the [unclear] just at the same time my pilot was just going to so we had to go off and go round again. And that happened several times and on one, where we had to bomb Wesel, because the commanders had taken over, they crossed the river there and they were outside of Wesel, we had to mark Wesel and we went, there was five of us, we went in and we had to put our markers on the, uhm, the, what’s, I don’t know what you call it, uhm, on the stone part of the pier sort of thing
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: On the river
DK: Yeah.
KO: And both our pilots [unclear] at the same time, both pressed the button, that cut out transmission then we couldn’t hear anything else. We went in, they went in, and we went in, dropped our markers at the same time and they landed in the same, virtually the same place at the same time so how far we were apart where we dived in there, we couldn’t have been more than twenty feet apart, never saw them and they didn’t see us.
DK: I’m just reading there from your logbook, so, that’s the 23rd of March ’45 and it’s ops to Wesel, army support. And you’ve marked with a thousand-pound red target indicator. So, you both dropped at exactly the same time.
KO: And exactly the same spot.
DK: Onto a pier.
KO: Yeah.
DK: On the river.
KO: Yeah. We didn’t realise what had happened until we got back.
DK: So then just going on here, I’m just reading this out for the recorder here, so, you then got the 10 of April ’45 ops the marshalling yard near Leipzig. So, backed up number two, thousand-pound red target indicator, carrying a thousand-pound yellow target indicator.
KO: Yes.
DK: So that probably would have been your last operation then, would it or?
KO: [unclear] read, read.
DK: Oh, ok.
KO: I know that [laughs] I found out that since that my sister married a family in Northampton, they’re apparently of Jewish extraction and they came down to the grandfather had had property in East Germany,
DK: Oh, right.
KO: And nobody knew where it was or anything and it wasn’t until after the war that they set the wheels rolling and apparently there’s two blocks of very luxury apartments and we’d blown one block up and so they only got reparations for the one, who’d been getting the rent for the other one [unclear] up until that time nobody came to the fore.
DK: Oh, hang on, there’s another op here, so, uhm, so Norway, so 25th of April ’45 Tonsberg, Norway.
KO: Yes, that’s the last one I did.
DK: That’s the last one, yes, so [unclear]. So at that point the war’s ended, how did you feel then?
KO: Well, that was about the first or second op I did from commissioning.
DK: Right. So you were commissioned at this point. Yeah.
KO: But I didn’t, I didn’t bother, we didn’t know what was going to happen to us though, where we were going to go, and what happened, what happened then lot of the Ozzies were sent home and we brought in some new people because there was the Far East war and we were going to take part in that and so we were going out there to mark for 5 Group, was only 5 Group that was going out there and we were the Pathfinder Force for 5 Group but we weren’t going to do our dive bomb marking there, somebody got the bright idea of using H2S and we would fly over the target two thousand feet straight and level for two minutes and drop our markers out. You know, that was a ridiculous idea, we wouldn’t even know where the bloody markers had gone and we would’ve much rather continue what we were doing previously and knowing where it was but.
DK: This would’ve been part of Tiger Force then.
KO: Yes, this was Tiger Force and we were supposed to be leading it.
DK: So, the atomic bomb’s dropped then, how did you feel that you weren’t now having to go out to the Far East?
KO: I was a bit disappointed in some respect because I rather looked forward to the exploratory flight out there really but on the other hand, see, there was a five hundred miles from Okinawa to the landfall in Japan,
DK: Yeah.
KO: And we didn’t have that great deal of overlap of petrol to do that, so we were waiting for Mark 40 Mosquitoes to come, which were pressurized and we were flying at forty thousand feet out, taking the trade wind to blow us there, then we go down and do our marking role for drop our markers whatever to do there and then we were gonna come back at sea level because the trade wind would,
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Well that was what the theory was anyway, that would blow us back, blow us there and blow us back. Which we weren’t particularly thrilled with the idea.
DK: Oh, I can imagine.
KO: As you can imagine, sort of being dropped in the sea in the middle of the Pacific there.
DK: [unclear] Get blown back [laughs].
KO: [laughs] No, some people spark ideas, I don’t know.
DK: So the war’s ended then, what were you
KO: Yeah.
DK: You carried on [unclear]
KO: What happened then was, I was supposed to be leaving the [unclear] and they started sending the Ozzies back then because the war was,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Virtually finished then and they started importing a few other crews to come in, to go on the Okinawa job and [unclear] I was gonna say now, I lost the thread or something.
DK: So, the war’s ended, you’re [unclear] not going.
KO: Yes, so a lot of the new boys that they’d brought in were dispersed amongst other stations and so forth and we were just left to [unclear] we were the only crews that were taken out of the squadron and sent firstly to Feltwell and then, I can never remember the other airfield and then ended up at Marham,
DK: Right.
KO: On a bombing development unit. Now we were supposed to think up different ways of attack for future things, well, that was a waste of time really but that was all we were doing. All the rest of the them, down the squadron as it was left, cause they’d imported a lot of aircrew, and sent the Ozzies back, and they were sent to uhm, 19th Squadron, something like that,
DK: Right.
KO: And within months it was, they were all released from it.
DK: And what happened to yourself, then you, did you leave the RAF at that point?
KO: I was still on bombing development unit.
DK: Right.
KO: We just, from there we just five crews of us there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: And I stayed on till June and I was then pat to hand in me notice so to speak.
DK: So that would have been June 1946.
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah, you’re at Marham. So, you’ve left the Air Force in ’46 then. Yeah. So, what did you after that then?
KO: Well, it’s a bit of a long story really, I wanted to, I wanted to get engaged to one of the WAAFs in the squadron who was a parachute packer.
DK: Right.
KO: And I wanted to get engaged, this was at Christmas time, and I went home that weekend, took a photograph and my father said, no, you’re not marrying that girl. So, I sort of, I [unclear] a little bit, he said, no, you’re not going to marry that girl, if you do, he said, we shall sell the business up, we shall go back to America cause my parents were American born.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: So, I said very briefly, well, that’s what you want to do, that’s what you left to do. Anyhow, they didn’t go back, the father bought a bungalow outside the town and I left myself thinking that this was the route I was going to take, that he changed his mind about being awkward and he bought two limited companies in Northampton and when I came out to take on the businesses which was a great help to me because I only had one other option which was to stay in the Air Force.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But that wasn’t very good because they really didn’t want anybody else in the, in there but that’s. So where I went and I was in Northampton then for five or six years working on the family business and then we divided up from there into the different companies and so forth.
DK: [unclear] The family business actually involve?
KO: A restaurant and bakeries.
DK: Oh, alright, ok. So, so looking back now, after all these years, several years, how do you feel about your time in the Air Force?
KO: I mean, for good or bad?
DK: Both [laughs]
KO: I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Alright.
KO: No, it was a great experience, I learned a lot really from it, you know, and I wouldn’t have missed a day of my experiences there I mean [unclear] fly in the Air Force, when I came home and joined the local flying club and I was flying several hundred hours [unclear].
DK: So you did eventually get your private pilot’s license, then.
KO: I got my private pilot license, yes.
DK: Yeah. And, one other question I’ve got, did you know anything about the controversy of 627 Squadron moving from Bennett’s 8 Group to
KO: Oh, it was a bit of an argy bargy about that.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But, no, that’s what, what came away and that’s what we accepted.
DK: So, when you initially joined 627, you were part of 8 Group, were you, under Bennett.
KO: Yes. And 6
DK: And then moved to 5 Group under Cochrane.
KO: Yes. And 617 Squadron were on the same station with us.
DK: Right.
KO: So, it was quite a nice association really.
DK: Yeah. And you got on well with 617 Squadron.
KO: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Was a really good arrangement really.
DK: So, that controversy then, you just accepted you were going to another group.
KO: Well, that was all you could do really.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Hadn’t got a great deal of option [laughs].
DK: Ok. Well, absolutely marvelous.
KO: I’m sorry I’ve been so
DJK: You’ve been absolutely wonderful, brilliant, don’t worry, it’s useful having the logbook here cause we’ve gone through the various
KO: My memory seems to be worse at times than others and
DK: You’ve been absolutely marvelous, no, it’s been good
KO: Good. It’s been absolute rubbish from my point of view.
DK: That’s been good. Right, I’ll turn that off now.
KO: Ok.
DK: Ok, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Oatley
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AOatleyK170321, POatleyK1701
Format
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01:03:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Initially too young to enlist at the outbreak of war, Ken Oatley served in the Home Guard until he was able to enlist in October 1940, when after initial training he undertook pilot training. After basic flying training he went onto Canada training on Oxfords. It was whilst there Donald Bennett was forming the Pathfinder Force. Five pilot trainees were taken from each course to retrain as navigators and Ken was selected for transfer. Eventually posted to 627 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa on Mosquito aircraft, Ken flew a total of 22 operations. He describes how 627 Squadron operated within Bomber Command operations, explaining how their role was to arrive and illuminate the designated targets for the following bombers. This included the operation on Dresden in February 1945. At the end of the war, Ken served with the Bomb Development Unit at RAF Marham, before being demobbed in 1946.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1940-10
1945-02
1946
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Dresden
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
106 Squadron
16 OTU
1660 HCU
617 Squadron
627 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
civil defence
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Manston
RAF Marham
RAF Metheringham
RAF Scampton
RAF Sealand
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Woodhall Spa
Stirling
target indicator
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1825/33677/SBrennanJ1210913v20002-0002.1.jpg
2a672c5838e5a479625d29a1ac21c9e2
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Title
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Brennan, Jack
John Brennan
J Brennan
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Brennan, J
Description
An account of the resource
Twenty-four items.
The collection concerns Sergeant John Brennan DFM (1210913 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book as well as documents including a Goldfish Club certificate, notes from station and squadron operational record book with details of activities and operations, memoirs, newspaper cuttings and correspondence. In addition, contains operation order and other details for 617 Squadron's attack of German dams on 16/17 May 1943.
He flew operations as a wireless operator with 102 and 35 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by T Noble and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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Title
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Certificate for award of Pathfinder badge
Description
An account of the resource
Made out for Flight Sergeant J Brennan permanently awarded the Pathfinder badge
Creator
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DC Bennett
Date
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1944-06-21
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-21
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Format
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One page printed document
Identifier
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SBrennanJ1210913v20002-0002
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/986/10499/MWhybrowFHT170690-160926-160003.2.jpg
7d2b318523cf71ced6f2e61f2088662e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/986/10499/MWhybrowFHT170690-160926-160004.2.jpg
02a60eacf4973d3cb604642f344d4697
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Title
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Whybrow, Frederick
F H T Whybrow
Description
An account of the resource
49 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Fred Whybrow DFC (1921 - 2005, 1321870, 170690 Royal Air Force) and consists of service documents, photographs and correspondence. After training in the United States, he completed two tours of operations as a navigator with 156 Squadron Pathfinders. After the war he served in Japan and Southeast Asia. He was demobbed in 1947.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anne Roberts and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Whybrow, FHT
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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15th December 2000.
I have received this book, Odd Man Out, this morning, It is very short but obviously, as an intereted [sic] party, I have found it absorbing, There are howver [sic], on two of our operations he has written in some details, some necessary corrections which I feel must be made,
The first, Scheinfurt, on page 51, is very far from an accurate account and contains a very serious libel on the Wireless Operator, Mick Wenham, which I feel must be put right. Briefly:
We had been briefed to Scheinfurt and routed out over the south coast. Just East of Reading we came under intense anti-aircraft fire and immediately the starboard outer engine was damaged seriously and was beyond further use. There was other less serious damage and immediately a descision [sic] was made (Bob, Stu and me) that we could not continue. Consequently we made for the Straits of Dover where we dropped our entire load including the 4000 lb ‘Cookie) It was not retained as alex [sic] writes, we still had some 2000 gallons of fuel aboard and no pilot would have tried to land with that kind of weight. With the load disposed of, Bob M declared his intention of returning to base via Harwich. I immediately told him not to, we were already flying at 3000ft and we knew that the ballons [sic] at Harwich were at 4000ft plus. I warned him several times of the dangers but he would [inserted] not [/inserted] listen, not until we actually struck the ballon [sic] cable over the centre of Harwich anyway.
Alex writes that on our return we were interviewed by A.V.M. Bennett who singled out the Wireless Operator for critisism[sic] because he had not been listening out for ‘squeaky ballons[sic ]’. I have not the slightest recollection of this meeting and, if it had taken place, and any blame was attributed to an innocent member of the crew, I would have spoken out as, I am sure, would Bob McLean have done. Bob McLean was entirely responsible, he was warned repeatedly of the height of the ballons[sic] and the dangers of flying a badly damaged heavy aircraft over and town or city. There was no need to have done so, we still had three engines and were flying relatively safely with plenty of fuel to detour round any populate[sic] area. I have no wiish[sic] to say he was irresponsible, most certainly he wasn’t mormally [sic] and we all had the greatest faith in him. I think, on this occasion, he was rattled by the intensity of the anti-aircraft fire and probably more so because we had to abort the operation, an event never likely to be looked on kindly by the powers that be and often leading to accusations of Lack of Moral Fibre. Stupid of course in this case as no way could we could we [sic] have completed a more that [than] 2000 mile journey on three engines or even made the target by our deadline, quite apart from any enemy activety [sic].
[page break]
//
Bob’s son, Robbie, lived just outside Bristol and often after visiting him, Bob would break his journey home to Glasgow and overnight with us. Obviously such occasions were times for reminiscence over a tot or two. The last time he was here, just a few months before he died, he seemed to be very ill and I had the impression that he knew it and wanted to clear his mind. He brought up the Harwich incident, said he should have listened to me and also that he entirely to blame and was lucky not to have been court martialled.
I gathered that he had been shattered by the intensity and accuracy of the anti-aircraft fire at Reading and shocked, as we all were, that it was coming from artillery allegedly friendly to us and threfore[sic] unexxpected.[sic] He said it had put him into an ‘unreal state’. (I know the feeling, I have experienced it myself on many occasions when on bombing runs). He was also very worried that we had had to abort the operation. As we all knew this was never looked upon kindly and always raised the nightmare of being accused of lack of moral fibre. To be fair, I think he was far more worried about that than by the A.A. fire to which in any case, he was well used to. LMF would not have arisen, I think. No way could we have made a round journey of more than 2000 miles on three engines and still met our time on target. It would have been suicide and if he had raised the matter at the time I would have told him so. Not much use telling him so some 53 years after the event but he still seemed to be worrying about it.
I think that’s it. I am sorry that I have a little difference with your book but I could not let poor Mick be blamed.
My very best wishes for the New Year and best regards to Winnie. I still have very fond memories of the lovely tea sheprovided[sic] for all of us.
[handwritten] Part of a letter to Alec Duke re his book)
‘Odd Man Out’
Dublin Core
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Title
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Part of a letter to Alex Duke re his book 'Odd Man Out'
Description
An account of the resource
In the letter he refers to an operation to Schweinfurt described in the book. They received damage over Reading from 'friendly' anti-aircraft fire. They jettisoned the bomb load in the Channel then headed home via Harwich at 3000'. Despite warning the pilot he overflew the town and struck a balloon. In the book the wireless operator, Mick Wenham was blamed but the letter explains it was the pilot's decision. It was the author's opinion that the anti-aircraft fire had traumatised the pilot, Bob McLean. He was also concerned that turning back would lead to a charge of Lack Moral Fibre despite the impossibility of continuing for 2000 miles on three engines.
Date
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2000-12-15
Format
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Two typewritten sheets
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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MWhybrowFHT170690-160926-160003,
MWhybrowFHT170690-160926-160004
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Harwich
Germany--Schweinfurt
England--Essex
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
David Bloomfield
Creator
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Fred Whybrow
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
lack of moral fibre
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1391/24698/BDunmoreGDunmoreGv1.2.pdf
4775acffec4e6ee9190c8fe717ffa0cb
Dublin Core
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Title
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Dunmore, George
G Dunmore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dunmore, G
Description
An account of the resource
17 Items concerning Flight Lieutenant George Dunmore DFM (5601) who flew 45 operations as a flight engineer on Lancaster with 83 Squadron at RAF Scampton and then as part of the Pathfinder Force at RAF Wyton. Commissioned in 1944 he continued to serve in the general duties branch as flight engineer and then equipment branch until 1967. The collection contains his logbook, an account of a maximum effort operation, official documents and letters, a history of an individual aircraft, pathfinder certificate, recommendation for DFM, career notes as well as photographs and memorabilia. A sub-collection of 58 photographs of aircraft under repair or being manufactured in factories.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Louise Dunmore and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] STRIKE TO DEFEND [/underlined]
[page break]
[underlined] PREFACE [/underlined]
Although it has been the custom over the last thirty years to push memories of our experiences during World War II to the back of our minds, I have specifically been asked recently, by my son who is now studying the period, to talk about those days.
Many recent accounts I have heard or read have, it seems, been written by younger people who have no first hand knowledge of the time, but who have tried to research and give an account of various happenings. Unfortunately, to my mind, this method creates many distortions of facts, and I am therefore endeavouring to give an authentic impression to help young lads like my own son to understand the important part that Bomber Command played in World War II.
In doing so, I would like to dedicate the following work to all aircrew of Bomber Command who did not return, and in particular to my many friends and comrades of ‘83’ Squadron, Pathfinder Force.
- 1 -
[page break]
In January 1942 Air Chief Marshall Harris, Commander-in-Chief of Bomber Command was sure enough of the growing strength of R.A.F. Bomber Command to make the following prophetic statement:
“Cologne, Lubeck, Rostock, those are only just the beginning. Let the Nazis take good note of the “Western Horizon”, there they will see a cloud as yet no bigger than a man’s hand, but behind that cloud lies the whole massive power of the United States of America.
When the storm bursts over Germany they will look back to the days of Lubeck and Rostock and Cologne as a man caught in the blasts of a hurricane will look back to the gentle zephyrs of last summer. There are a lot of people who say that bombing can never win a war, well , my answer to that is that it has never been tried yet and we shall see! Germany, clinging ever more and more desperately to her widespread conquests and foolishly striving for more will make a most interesting initial experiment. Japan will provide the confirmation”.
The following gives an account of the preparation for and carrying out of a typical ‘maximum effort’ raid by Bomber Command which was initiated at H.Q. by the selection of a TARGET city:-
Together the planning Air Staffs were advised on weather conditions affecting U.K. Bomber bases, route, and target area. Selection of specific targets and the mass of detail, concerning target photographs, German defences, route out – home, codes, fuel loads, bomb loads – target marking techniques with pyrotechnic colour codes and from this mass of specialist information was evolved an [underlined] OPERATION ORDER [/underlined] sent in code to all concerned Bomber Groups and Squadrons which on receipt at a Squadron was called the ‘B’ (bombing) Form and summarized thus:-
1. Intention
2. Method
3. Execution
On receipt of an Operation Order at R.A.F. station level there was an immediate security clamp placed on Entrances/Exits, also all telephone lines were disconnected, - except for those coded and scrambled ‘tie lines’ to Bomber Group and Command Headquarters.
- 1 -
/The
[page break]
The whole R.A.F. station was alerted, and aircrews detailed to Air Test specific serviceable aircraft. Each aircrew member made a thorough detailed check on the ground against specially prepared Master check lists, i.e.:
[underlined] Pilot: [/underlined] [author indicates and] [underlined] Flt. Engineer: [/underlined] Pitot and Static Vent covers “OFF” Combined check of all aspects of aircraft externally, including Propellars [sic], Airframe, Engines, Tyres, Brakes Control surfaces, Trimmer Tabs, Oil, fuel and hydraulic systems.
[underlined] Navigator: [/underlined] [author indicates and] [underlined] Bomb Aimer: [/underlined] Combined check of all navigation equipment, bomb bay, bomb sight and navigation electronic aids.
[underlined] Wireless Operator: [/underlined] Check Transmitter, Receiver, Trailing aerial gear. Radio jamming equipment, A.I. equipment I.F.F. (Identification Friend or foe), also Verey Cartridge codes and pistol – and finally [underlined] Bomber Code for the day. [/underlined]
[underlined] Gunners [/underlined] Check Mid-upper, Front and Rear Turrets, associated electrical Gun Sights – Machine guns, ammunition and Turrett [sic] heating.
These checks by the individual specialist aircrew members followed intensive work by the skilled ground crew tradesmen who themselves had followed scheduled serviceing [sic] programms [sic] supervised by N.C.O. Master technicians.
On the air-crew ground checks being completed, - control surface locks and Jury struts were removed; Ground Electrical power plugged in, and the Aircraft’s Master Electrical switch switched from FLIGHT to GROUND.
Each crew member took up his respective position in the aircraft, then a further check list carried out embracing in detail all aspects of readiness for the ensuing Night Flying Test (N.F.T.). The check list continued from all positions while switched to “Ground electrical power” – when complete to this point the O.K. to start engines was indicated to waiting ground crew:- e.g.
No.1 (Port Outer)
No.2 (Port Inner)
No3. (Starboard Inner)
No.4 (Starboard Outer)
With all four engines started the order Ground/Flight switch to Flight was given and “disconnect external electrical service”. Still on CHOCKS the “Prior to Flight” checks were continued from the Master Check list. These included:-
(i) All controls – freedom of movements
(ii) Engine temperatures, pressures normal.
(iii) Each engine in turn revved up to Max R.P.M. and Boost e.g. [underlined] Lancaster [/underlined] 3000 R.P.M. 12lbs. sq.in. Boost
- 2 -
/(iv)
[page break]
(iv) All 8 Magnetos checked, in turn.
(v) All engine oil pressures – steady at 90 lbs. sq.in
(vi) All engine temperature [underlined] normal [/underlined]
(vii) All Fuel Pumps ‘ON’ and showing 12 lbs.sq.in
(viii) All superchargers set ‘M’ medium gear.
IX All propellor[sic]pitch controls, controlling – Full coarse to Full Fine – and Set Fine.
X Bomb doors closed
XI Pilot Heater ‘ON’ (Air speed indicator)
XII Brake Pressure 350 lbs. sq. in
XIII Hydraulic Pressure 3000 lbs. sq. in
XIV Master Gyro Compass – check reading (by rear door) and compare with:-
(a) Repeater compasses “on”
(i) Bomb Sight –
(ii) Navigators –
(iii) Wireless Operators –
(iv) Pilots Instrument Panel
XV Check Magnetic P.4 Compass for deviation
XVI Check Altimeter setting for code Q.F.E. airfield at Zero height or code QNH – height above sea level as required.
XVII Check all crew restraint harnesses secure, Oxygen ‘On’ Masks ‘On’
XVIII Flight Engineer checks Fuel Cocks selected for Take Off (No.1 Tanks Inboard)
XIX Pilot signals “CHOCKS AWAY” – when clear, rolls a few feet – checks “Brakes ON” and Pressure maintained.
XX Pilot taxies to Take Off Runway in use by using outboard engines for steering with touches of “differential” braking to either Port or Starboard main wheels as required. The differential was achieved through an air valve connected to the rudder bar – with a single lever on the control column.
When given clear to do so (Green light from runway controller), the pilot turned onto the runway, ran forward a few yards (to straighten the Marstrand Ribbed Tail Wheel) – then applied full brake – opened throttles to gate position, - [underlined] Power noted, [/underlined] Magnetos again checked in turn – for Rev drop. If O.K. Flaps selected 20 degrees down, radiator, shutters auto, Captain called crew – “Take Off – Brace”.
Against brakes, throttles were opened, leading with starboard engines (to counteract Propellar [sic] Torque (which tended to cause a swing on Take-off) – and as the aircraft accelerated and the tail came up – all four throttles to the ‘Gate’ position. At this point the pilot had directional control via the Rudders and then dependant on speed required and wind direction – called for “Full Power” to the Flight Engineer. The Flt. Engineer responded and
3
/called
[page break]
called out “Full power 3000 Plus 14” when indicated.
Once airborne, a further series of checks covering all systems and controls was completed. Any technical defects noted for advice of ground crew on landing. Such N.F.T.’s took from 20 minutes to 40 minutes, and on landing any defects were reported as “snags” to be corrected immediately. The aircrew returned to their respective Flight Commanders to report Serviceability In return this information was passed through Squadron and Group Commanders to H.Q. Bomber Command as the percentage of Squadron strength serviceable and available for operations.
Meantime, the Engineering and Armament Officers would have been advised of
(a) The Fuel load in gallons (Lancaster maximum 2154)
(b) The various bomb loads required, together with photo flash sizes, Barometric bomb fuse settings – delay settings – Target Indicator – Code colours and further varied Bomb release switching permutations over the 15 available [underlined] bomb slips [/underlined] plus 3 Flare Chutes.
Depending on the Operation Order, - Target – alternative target – or other possible variables, the time for Main Briefing of crews was usually released as soon as possible in order to allow rest before the trip. Possibly, due to tactics for spoofing or fooling the German defences systems en route, it could be that Pilots, Navigators and Bomb Aimers were required to attend on initial Pre-briefing where maps and charts were prepared according to detailed instructions for the proposed bomber raid. These crew members were joined by the remaining crew members, i.e. Flight Engineer, Wireless Operator, Mid-upper and Rear Gunners – and all crews seated, - seven men to a table.
At Briefing time screens were removed from the [underlined] large scale [/underlined] map of Europe showing, usually in [underlined] red tape: [/underlined]
(i) Route outbound to Target with turning points
(ii) TARGET – and Alternate if required
(iii) Route Home to mythical ‘Gate’ position in North Sea – (Gate for 83 Sqdn. Was 7 miles east of the Wash and 4 miles wide North to South)
(iv) Route from Gate position in-bound to base at Wyton – usually down the ‘Bedford Rivers to St. Ives – (ground beacon) before joining Wyton airfield circuit – Anti-clockwise.
A typical briefing took place in the Airmans’ Dining Hall under strict security conditions – only aircrew detailed on the OPERATION ORDER – plus only Aircrew Section Leaders and the concerned specialists – i.e. Photographic Armament, Engineering, Electronic, Radio, Intelligence, Weather (Meteorologists) were present; all other personnel who did not need to know were excluded.
- 4 -
/After
[page break]
After an introduction to the Target by the Station Commander, and an outline of the major factors concerning the chosen Target, each Specialist Leader gave detailed information as required, e.g.
[underlined] Met. Officer: {/underlined] – Weather at base for Take-Off, on route, Target forecast, and base on return.
[underlined] Navigation Leader: [/underlined] – Take-off and climb, timing details, route in detail giving turning point co-ordinates. Timing explicitly to the [underlined] second [/underlined] cruise speeds, - final Heading to Target with [underlined] Height to Bomb [/underlined] – exact heading. Also, instructions for ground or air turning points, or ground/Air Markers colour Code changes at specific times as advised by Pathfinder Master Bomber.
[underlined] Bombing Leader [/underlined] : - Covered specific detail of make up of bomb loads – and which Flare Chutes were loaded with requisite coloured flares. Also Bomb sight and Camera settings with emphasis on correct heading on final run-up to target with “minimum Jinking” request to pilots” on run up – and emphatically, speed steady at 143 knots. (This latter always met with a laugh, but was usually adhered to by crews).
Underlined] Flight Engineer Leader: [/underlined] – Covered ‘all up weight’ for Take Off, climb, and cruise, with estimated engine settings required; emphasising, need for economy of fuel, accurate engine instrument checks, also up-keep of Log Sheet every 20 minutes to cross-check fuel consumption. The aim for a Lancaster being to achieve 1.2 miles per gallon.
Total fuel capacity was 2154 gallons in six tanks, (3 in each wing), numbered Port 1, 2, 3 out from centre and starboard 1, 2, 3 out from centre. The final word of warning was not to exceed maximum operational climb revs, boost and time limits, viz. 2850, (revs), + 9 lbs. (boost) and 1 hour (time). A warning to especially watch [underlined] coolant [/underlined] and [underlined] temperatures [/underlined] also [underlined] oil pressures [/underlined] when useing [sic] these operational settings was added.
[underlined] Wireless Leader: [/underlined] – Gave details of frequencies to be used, codes applicable, with changes [underlined] hourly [/underlined] if necessary. Also possible broadcast frequencies over enemy territory that may be used for radio direction finding by use of the D.F. Loop System. Stress was also placed on each wireless operator’s [underlined] search [/underlined] frequency band which had to be ‘swept’ continuously to pick up possible interception vector instructions to enemy night fighters, then instantly ‘JAMMING’ those orders by means of our ‘WOBBULATOR DEVICE’ – (The Wobbulator device was a metal plate mounted on a spring, insulated from the PORT side of the fuselage. It acted as a variable tuning capacitor due to vibration resonance and ‘strobed’ either side of the frequency to be ‘JAMMED’)
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/This
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This amplified the sound of one of our exhaust stubs by means of a carbon microphone and re-transmitted on the night fighters’ frequencies – effectively ‘Jamming them’.
[underlined] Gunnery Leader: [/underlined] – General search pattern and dedicated vigilance, especially from directly below, also ensure before pre-trip rest that all guns were sighted correctly, and ‘Harmonized’ to a 400 yard 2 feet diameter cone with a final reminder to switch guns from [underlined] SAFE [/underlined] to [underlined] FIRE [/underlined] – when aircraft engines start – you are ‘ON OPS’. When taxying before take off seek captain’s permission to fire short burst from all guns into target sand pits, and finally, ‘good shooting’.
[underlined] Squadron Commander: [/underlined] – Final detailed instructions to Pilots with particular reference to timing at turning points – keeping the ‘corkscrew’ evenly either side of track – vigilance, particularly overhead, and dead below for collisions and fighters, - minimum of inter-com ‘patter’. Also known enemy ground defence ‘Hot-Spots’, watch out for predicted (radar directed) flak while within an apparent ‘box barrage’. Finally, strict R/T until then! – and Good Luck.
[underlined] Duty Pilot – Air Traffic Controller: [/underlined] – Gave briefing concerning R/T silence and the precise timeing [sic] for each crew, e.g.
1. Time for transport to Aircraft and Dispersal points
2. Individual timeing [sic] for each aircraft to ‘Start UP’ – usually by flashing an Aldis Lamp signal by [underlined] compass vector [/underlined] from the Control Tower.
3. Once started up, a further Aldis Lamp signal to the captains of each aircraft to ‘Taxi’ out to TAKE –OFF point in their turn, as briefed.
4. Runway controllers signal to each aircraft “CLEAR TO TAKE OFF”.
When main briefing was completed, all crews were warned again that the Target and all details were SECRET and then dismissed to:-
(a) Pre-flight meals, and if time permitted –
(b) To rest, prior to assembly at Squadron H.Q. to dress in flying clothing, collect parachutes and flying rations consisting of sweets or chocolate, chewing gum and ‘an orange’.
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[underlined] OPERATION ORDER FOR OPS – 6th SEPTEMBER, 1942 [/underlined]
The operation order for ‘OPS’ on the night of 6th September, 1942 arrived at Wyton at 10.00 hrs and called for a ‘maximum effort’. Night flying tests were ordered immediately; one of which in LANCASTER MK 1 R5669 ‘E’ (for EDWARD) was carried out by ‘A’ flight Commander, Sqdn. Ldr. Roy Elliott and crew who landed back at Wyton after a 30 min. trip, at 15.10 hours, reporting ‘Fully Serviceable’, - no snags, - to the ground crew. Briefing was detailed for 18.00 hours and the forthcoming trip would make the 15th for the crew since joining the squadron at Scampton earlier in the year.
(As part of Bomber Command’s reorganisation for the increase in offensive action the C in C had ordered the formation of a new Bomber Group – No.8 – to specialise in “pin-point” target marking techniques, to enable the MAIN FORCE aircraft to achieve the concentrated delivery and saturation of the required targets.
Air Commodore Donald Bennett was appointed to form the new No.8 Group – PATHFINDER FORCE – and during the last week of July, 1942 he ordered the assembly of all aircrew of No.83 Squadron in No.5 hangar at R.A.F. Scampton. As the Air Officer Commanding No.8 Group, Don Bennett addressed the whole of 83 Sqdn. (at that time belonging to No.5Group) outlining the proposed Pathfinder Task and Marking Techniques – pointing out that, regardless of trips already completed, crews would be expected to complete 45 trips [underlined] (two tours) [/underlined] with Pathfinder Force, - he then requested volunteers. Virtually to a man, the whole Squadron volunteered and 83 Sqdn. became the first Pathfinder Force Squadron, transferring to R.A.F. Wyton, Huntingdonshire in formation on the afternoon of 15th August, 1942. Squadron ground personnel travelled down by road with all heavy equipment and within a few days the Squadron was again at ‘Operational Readiness’ in it’s new PATHFINDER role).
By 18.00 hours all concerned crews were seated in the briefing room and stood up as the Squadron C.O. entered. Curtains pulled away from the large scale map showing DUISBERG to be the target, and red tapes pinned to the board showed the route out, and home. The C.O., Wing Commander Crighton-Biggie remarked that most of the assembled crew had been to Duisberg about six weeks before on the night of 23rd. July while the squadron was still with No.5 Group. It had been a very heavily FLAK defended target then, and certainly would be a tough one tonight, especially as some of the senior crews would be Marking the Target and make 2 or 3 runs each to replenish special Target Indicator Marker Flares.
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Detailed briefing by each specialist Aircrew Leader followed as previously outlined. The main points were:-
i. Stick to planned course exactly
ii. Ensure accurate time of arrival at each turning point and [underlined] DO NOT CUT CORNERS [/underlined]
iii. Bombing heading across Target is from the South heading 020˚
iv.. Bombing height 20,000 feet
v. Zero hour on Target 03.00 (7.9.42)
vi. MARKERS – crews detailed separately commence marking Target at [underlined] 2 – 6 minutes [/underlined] with sticks of three [underlined] Green Marker Flares [/underlined] each run.
vii. Estimated total time of trip, 4 hours
viii. Fuel load 1,500 gallons – ample for six hours including 1 1/2 hours at combat revs and boost of 2,850 rpm + 9 lbs. if necessary
ix. Strict R/T silence (radio telephone) until reporting at ‘GATE’ position on return when instruction for a ‘Stream’ landing will be given.
X. First aircraft takes off 01.00 hours
X1. Pre-Flight meal 22.30 hours
The briefing was completed by 18.45 hours and the squadron dismissed to rest.
Sqn.Ldr. Roy Elliott and his crew collected a packet of ‘escape money’ each from the WRAF Flt. Officer (Intelligence) as they left the briefing room. This crew, in Lancaster ‘E’ Edward had been detailed to be first aircraft on Target at [underlined] Zero Minus Six Minutes [/underlined] (02.44 hours) and their bomb load 12 x S.B.C.’s GREEN MARKER FLARES. This meant four separate runs across the target – DUISBERG – which from previous trips the crew had called – “The worst for heavy flak” other than Essen.
After resting, the crew met for the pre-flight meal of eggs and bacon, (a rare delicacy in war-time Britain), and were on the way to the Hangar to dress in flying clothing by 23.10 hours. By midnight, dressed and ready to go the crew were collected by L.A.C.W Nancy Smith (M T driver with her one ton truck, and driven to ‘E’ Edward dispersal at the southern edge of RAF Wyton aerodrome.
It was a warm evening, still an hour to take-off, and the skipper suggested a last smoke and ‘5 minutes’ tactics, before commencing aircraft ground checks. Following crew custom, Flt.Lt. J.H. Dunk (navigator) spread a map
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out showing pencilled the route out – across Target – and home. The crew saw that their route was WYTON – N east to Cleethorpes, then east to Den Helder (South of Texel Island) then S. east across the Zuider Zee (now Issel Meer) heading directly to ARNHEM in Holland. Beyond Arnhem they turned due east for 20 miles, then sharply due south – short of EMMERICH which would be 6/8 miles on their port beam. Remaining on course 180˚ until the town of WESEL was 10 miles on the Port beam, then again altering course – (as a feint or spoof manoevre [sic]) south east directly towards Dusseldorf, which lay south of Duisberg and to the south east of KREFELD. Finally when [underlined] past [/underlined] Duisberg and six miles south west of the target – turn sharply onto 045˚ (north east) directly for Duisberg – confirm aiming point visually and on ‘GEE’ radar – altering course to Bomb Run heading as briefed on [underlined] 020˚ [/underlined] for aiming point on DOCKS. (The return route was 50 miles north and parallel to the outward route)
The time was now 00.30 hours and the crew quickly ran through the external checks; a final word from ‘Chiefy’ and his ground crew who wished “GOOD LUCK” – skipper Roy Elliott signed the servicing F700 and called, “All aboard”.
Once in crew positions all internal checks were completed by 00.50 hours when the Green Aldis flashed from the Control Tower signalling ‘E’ Edward start-up. The ground crews were given thumbs up, plus 1 finger, and engines started in sequence:-
No.1 Port outer
No.2 Port inner
No.3 Starboard inner
No.4 Starboard outer
When all four were running the wireless operator switched from ‘Ground’ to ‘Flight’ and the flight engineer gave the crossed arms signal to ground crews to:-
a. unplug ground electronics
b. chocks away
Roy Elliott held the aircraft on brakes awaiting the ‘taxi’ signal from the tower; the time 00.57 hours. Meanwhile ground running checks of engine propellors [sic], fuel selection, pumps, instruments and master compasses were completed.
The runway in use was [underlined] 36 [/underlined] (due north) only 300 yds. from ‘E’ Edward’s dispersal
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and at precisely 01.02 the double green Aldis flashed the ‘taxi’ signal on to ‘E’ Edward’s cockpit, the brakes were released, the skipper pressed his inter-com button ordering, “Check guns on ‘FIRE’, we are on our way!”, and taxied to the runway controllers’ hut on 36, rolling forward to straighten the tail; then BRAKES FULL ON:-
a. CHECK No.1 – OK – Fully Fine
CHECK No.2 – OK – Fully Fine
CHECK No.3 – OK – Fully Fine
b. Fuel Pumps ON – OK
c. Flaps 20˚ - OK
d. Radiators automatic – OK
e. Navigator – give me Gyro and P.4 Compass check – OK
f. Brake pressure 350 lbs. – OK
Precisely at briefed take-off time the runway controller flashed a green torch- (time 01.10 hours). Roy Elliott opened up, released brakes and ‘E’ Edward roared into the night and once airborne in about 2000 yards climbed up steeply heading north for Cleethorpes on the east coast. Once airborne, Roy Elliott called, “Flaps up” – then “Climbing Power” and the flight engineer responded after completing the action: - “Flaps are up” – “Revs 2850 boost + 9 lbs. sq.in – throttles locked, temperatures and pressure normal”.
‘E’ Edward continued to climb at 1200 ft. per minute and the Captain again pressed the inter-com button saying:-
“ATTENTION ALL CREW, DUISBERG IS VERY MUCH A [underlined] HOT SPOT [/underlined] ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RUHU; IT IS HEAVILY RINGED BY ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS AND HAS NUMEROUS BELTS OF SEARCHLIGHTS. THE RUHR DEFENCES AS YOU ALL KNOW EXTEND INTO E.HOLLAND SO IF WE ARE CAUGHT OR [underlined] CONED [/underlined] WATCH OUT FOR NIGHT FIGHTERS – ESPECIALLY IF THE FLAK EASES UP AT ALL! I WILL BE WEAVING A CORKSCREW PATTERN EITHER SIDE OF OUR MEAN COURSE, ALSO DIVING AND CLIMBING CONTINUOUSLY BETWEEN 18000 ft and 20,000 ft. I WILL BE BANKING ALMOST VERTICALLY ON TURN, [underlined] SO SEARCH BELOW AND ABOVE EACH TIME. [/underlined] EVERYBODY KEEP YOUR EYES PEELED! – OUT’…
This was a little more than usual admonition from the skipper; afterwards the crew wondered if he had had a premonition?
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‘E’ Edward reached Cleethorpes on course – height 12,500 ft and turned onto a new heading, (corrected for drift by the navigator) of 080˚ for DEN HELDER, still climbing. Both gunners reported other heavy aircraft level and to the rear on approximately the same course. At 13,000 ft boost pressure had dropped to 5 1/4 lbs. sq. in. – the flight engineer requested “Change to ‘S’ gear Supercharger”. The skipper indicated O.K. with right thumb; the flight engineer first throttled back switches to ‘S’ gear which was felt as an audible surge, then throttled to the ‘GATE’ position. Operational height of 20,000 ft was reached at 01.45 hours and the skipper announcing this ordered, “Cruise power”; the flight engineer complied, altering propellors [sic] to a coarser pitch and synchronizing engines at 2650 revs boost + 4 lbs. sq. in.
Within a few minutes the bomb aimer called on intercom, “Enemy coast ahead, I can see Texel and the Zuider Zee!”
The navigator replied, “O.K.: I have a ‘FIX’ – Skipper, we are about two minutes early, can you reduce speed to 180 knots? I know we are No.1 to bomb but we don’t want to be too far ahead or we will be for it!”
“O.K.” the skipper responded, and eased the throttles back until 180 knots was indicated on the A.S.I. (Air speed indicator), in so doing, the boost gauges all dropped to show only 1/2 lb. sq. in. boost and flame from the unsilenced exhaust stubs subsided to a dull red tinged with blue, about 18 inches long.
Using the bomb sight, the bomb aimer gave a precise time, as we crossed into the Zuider Zee altering course to 135˚ for the long leg towards ARNHEM. As we turned the mid-upper gunner reported an M.E. 110 night fighter 5000 ft. up and heading west toward Texel; he had not seen us!
The skipper warned again, “KEEP ALL EYES PEELED – OUT”
When about the middle of the Zuider Zee it was obvious that things were hotting up as searchlights searched behind us from Texel and Den Helder with bursts of flak, and signs of air to air tracer, indicating German night fighters were up to our altitude [inserted] early [/inserted] and also scoring hits on our main force of Bomber Command as yet barely one hour out from base.
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By 02.15 hours we had passed over the Zuider Zee onto the Dutch mainland still heading 135˚, speed 180 knots for ARNHEM, when at 02.22 hours with Apledoorn on the port beam we were caught by a brilliant ‘Blue’ master searchlight which must have been ‘tracking’ us while ‘shuttered’. Immediately, 20 to 30 other searchlights came on to us and we were ‘CONED’.
Roy Elliott called, “WATCH IT EVERYONE – FULL POWER”, and pushed ‘E’ Edward into a vertical dive – on track; meanwhile the flight engineer adjusted propellor [sic] pitch controls to prevent overspeeding the engines and as the speed rose and altimeter unwound, pulled the anti-glare shield over the skipper’s head and flipped the skipper’s tinted shield down on his goggles. Then:-
SPEED 280 Height 18,000
SPEED 300 “ 17,500
Speed 330 “ 16,000
Flt.Eng. “Watch it skipper, they are firing at us now”
SKIPPER: “Aye, I can see it; pulling up now”
Then the sudden change in ‘G’ forcing us into our seats – still blinded by searchlights – Edward bucking in the shock of flying through grouped shell bursts – the acrid pungent smell of explosive – the altimeter hands winding up like mad as the aircraft regained precious altitude, although the speed slackened gradually. The flight engineer was altering throttles and pitch control lever setting, (akin to a ‘Concert Organist’) except that for ‘E’ Edward and crew it was a cacophany [sic] of OPS against the enemy, and possible death. This the crew knew well, but did not speak of it. Instead, the laconic, terse, inter-com patter, until suddenly Roy pushed the control column hard forward and reached to open the throttles as ‘E’ Edward shuddered level at 19,500 ft but only 110 knots indicated.
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- But still held in the searchlight cone, and so it continued. Flak sometimes very very close and rattling down the fuselage like ball bearings in a dust-bin, with a terrible smell. At other times dull ‘crumps’ in a circle ahead and ‘E’ Edward shuddering as we went through the shock waves. Roy Elliott continued to weave, in a random pattern corkscrew, so violent at times that the crew afterwards agreed it was the worst ‘ride’ ever to date, and wondered too how OL (Sqn. Code) ‘E’ Edward ever stayed in one piece.
Despite all the violent evasive action Roy Elliott had maintained his ‘weave’ fairly evenly, fifteen degrees either side of 135˚ true, and as ‘E’ Edward approached the ‘SPOOF’ turning point beyond Arnhem the searchlights petered out one by one. There had been no fighter attacks despite being held ‘naked’ in the searchlights for what seemed an eternity, but evidence of fighter activity abounded aft as following aircraft were similarly ‘coned’.
NAVIGATOR: “Turn LEFT onto 090 due east for 7 minutes if you can hold 180 knots Skipper”
SKIPPER: “O.K. Navigator, how are we for time?”
NAVIGATOR: “I have a ‘GEE’ fix! Looks O.K., perhaps 30 seconds late at this point, but we should make up when we turn due south in a few minutes because we will have a good wind. I will give you a correction later”.
SKIPPER: “Roger – out”.
The flight continued uneventfully as we turned onto 180˚ (South) for the ‘Spoof’ Leg to a point between Duisberg and Krefeld and heading directly for Dusseldorf.
WIRELESS OP: “Have been jamming over my briefed strobe frequencies skipper, there are a hell of a lot of night fighter instructions coming up”.
SKIPPER: “O.K. all crew WATCH IT – out”.
------------Then immediately:-
REAR GUNNER: “Three fighters 1000 yards aft Skipper and UP 2000 ft. Don’t weave, cut your throttles back. Don’t think they have seen us”.
Skipper complied –
SKIPPER: “Roger Bob, watch them”.
Seconds later –
WIRELESS OP: “Skipper, fighters on our course 2000 ft. up, vertically”
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SKIPPER: “Roger, Arthur, I see the bandits now, they seem to be scooting to Dusseldorf. Opening up to 180 knots again navigator, let me have a timing check please”.
NAVIGATOR: “Roger, Skipper, in one minute”. – On track but 10 seconds early, I have a good ‘Gee’ fix! In fact this ‘Gee Box’ is working so well I think it would be a good idea to feed in the Gee Plot target co-ordinates!”
SKIPPER: “Have you got them”?
NAVIGATOR: “Yes”
SKIPPER: “O.K. then let’s give it a try!” “Bomb aimer, what does the ground look like to the east?”
BOMB AIMER: “Looks clear skipper, if they don’t start up a smoke screen too early”
SKIPPER: “O.K.” “Navigator, we will run in on ‘Gee’ X-Y co-ordinates and let the bomb aimer do a visual double check on our first run up for about 2 minutes, or, say… 6 miles reasonably level – and I will drop speed to 143 knots for the final run in; take photo on the first run! – Bomb Aimer, make sure you know which 3 switches you are going to select on each RUN, we don’t want to overshoot and go round more often than necessary. O.K.? – OUT”
At 02.37 ‘E’ Edward turned on to the final Dog-leg ‘run in’ to Duisberg heading 025˚ true. The navigator said:-
NAVIGATOR: “I have both blips on ‘Gee’ now, I think we are east of track!”.
SKIPPER: “Bomb aimer, how does it look down there?”
BOMB AIMER: “Yes, we are east of track and drifting, alter course 10˚ port, --- that’s better! Bomb door open – LEFT – STEADY, 143 knots please – STEADY – am clearing the camera now – STEADY – searchlights seeking us now – STEADY. Target 4 miles and tracking down the bomb sight – STEADY NOW – Flak coming up! – watch for the red ‘spots’ – STEADY – RIGHT A LITTLE – STEADY – Flak bursting ahead, below us! – STEADY – Marker flares fused! – STEADY – I can see the aiming point”.
NAVIGATOR: “Yes, Bomb aimer, I have the blips on ‘Gee’ very close together”.
BOMB AIMER: “30 seconds to go Skipper, hold her steady – RIGHT – STEADY – ‘FLARES GONE’ – FLAK! – they are throwing it up! – STEADY for the photo! – STEADY – STEADY – FLASH GONE – O.K. SKIPPER DIVE DIVE – Flak straight for us – TURN RIGHT IN THE DIVE – CRIPES – THAT LOT BURST ABOVE US!”.
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SKIPPER: “Quiet now, I can see it! – Navigator, I’m down to 18,000 and will orbit starboard to the east!
Bomb aimer, can you see our MARKERS?”
BOMB AIMER: “Yes Skipper, they are in a tight cluster, smack over the sheds, about 200 yds east of our pin-point target”.
SKIPPER: “Good! – all crew keep a sharp look out as we re-join the stream on 020˚ true!
BOMB AIMER: “Main force must be a little early, they are thumping 4000 pounders onto our markers now.”
SKIPPER: “TIME CHECK PLEASE”
02-58 hrs. – log that navigator. They are two minutes early!.
BOMB AIMER: “Three Green Target Markers backing up on ours!”
SKIPPER: “How long do they burn for?”
BOMB AIMER: “Six minutes”
SKIPPER: “Good! there should be enough light for us on our next run; coming onto 020˚ True now.
BOMB AIMER: “Bomb doors open --- my God, the flak is very heavy now --- solid you could almost land on it!”
SKIPPER: “How are we going, Bomb aimer?”
BOMB AIMER: “Coming up just fine--- about 4 miles to go --- 2 miles --- STEADY, dead on track --- STEADY --- STEADY --- Lancaster caught in searchlights 1 mile ahead --- DOWN --- he’s been hit --- he’s on fire! --- HELL --- he’s gone – ‘Blown up’ --- no chance!”
SKIPPER: “LOG TIME”
BOMB AIMER: “Steady --- steady ---left --- a bit more --- STEADY ---STEADY --- damn! Searchlights got us --- STEADY SKIPPER, - HOLD IT STEADY – 30 seconds – flak a’coming [sic] --- STEADY --- markers fused --- STEADY --- markers gone --- WEAVE SKIPPER – FLAK GOT OUR RANGE ---Hell’s teeth, I can smell it --- FULL POWER!!! --- Speeds the answer now ---
[underlined] ‘THUMP’ --- ‘CRUMP’ --- ‘RATTLE’ [/underlined]
BOMB AIMER: “We’ve been hit aft”
REAR GUNNER: “We’ve been holed by the Elsan”
SKIPPER: “O.K> SPEED 280 – Height 15000 and going down – HELL WE”RE VERTICAL - --- give us a heave engineer”.
ENGINEER: “O.K.”
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SKIPPER: “Speed 320 --- 130000 ft. --- Cut power”
ENGINEER: “O.K.”
SKIPPER: “Give me flap 15 degrees – HEAVE --- Speed [underlined] 360 MAXIMUM [/underlined] 11000 --- Trim the tail engineer”.
ENGINEER: “ROGER”
SKIPPER: “Speed 380 plus – OFF THE CLOCK! --- height 8000 --- Navigator, check on position, I’m over to the east on 055 degrees.
NAV: “O.K.”
SKIPPER: “She’s coming out now – speed 360 – height 5000 --- HERE IT COMES!”
The fiery tracer from multiple light flak hosepiped [sic] up at the aircraft, at first seemingly slow, then viciously whipping past.
REAR GUNNER: “Searchlights aft, searching for us”
SKIPPER: “Can you hit them Bob?”
GUNNER: “Will do…”
The the rivetting [sic] hammer of 4 Browning’s fireing [sic] 1200 rounds per minute opened up. – Within seconds:-
GUNNER: “GOT TWO”
SKIPPER: “Good show Bob”. “Navigator, how far east are we?”
NAVIGATOR: “No good skipper, ‘GEE’ won’t pick up this low down, can you climb and circle?”
SKIPPER: “Willco”. – (Order to Flt. Engineer –“2850 revs + 9 lbs. – M Gear”)
BOMB AIMER: “we dropped on the second run at 03.11 and it is now 03.29
SKIPPER: “She’s climbing like a barn-door – 12,000 ft. coming up – watch out for fighters, they must know we’re in trouble!”
FLIGHT ENG: “Skipper, engines are getting hot, I think we over-speeded on the dive, suggest drop R.P.M. to 2650 and ‘S’ Supercharge.”
SKIPPER: “O.K. – I think ‘E’ Edward is feeling the strain and it’s [underlined] asking for it [/underlined] to circle here. Navigator, how far west is Duisberg now?”
NAVIGATOR: “About 17 miles”
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SKIPPER: “Right, I’m at 13,500 ft. now and we are only struggling to get higher. I propose to turn onto 270 degrees and go across at about 220 knots, O.K. Navigator?”
NAVIGATOR: “O.K. Skipper, but you need to be about 262 degrees.”
SKIPPER: “Roger! --- (then to crew) – We will be at right angles to the tail-end of the attack, most aircraft will be up around 20,000, but we might be level with the Stirlings or Wellingtons – if we get caught again I shall use some height to speed things up. How are the engine temperatures engineer?”
ENGINEER: “Cooling off now, skipper – I see we’ve lost three of our spinners from numbers 1, 3 and 4”
SKIPPER: “Have we!”
BOMB AIMER: “We’ve lost the bomb-doors too”
SKIPPER: “Hell! No wonder we’re flying like a ‘pregnant duck! – how’s the fuel?”
ENGINEER: “Tanks appear O.K. and check out with computed log”.
SKIPPER: “How much left?”
ENGINEER: “About 900 gallons”
SKIPPER: “Good, should see us home. Bomb aimer, how far to target?”
BOMB AIMER: “About 9 miles on track and heavy bombs and incendiaries still pouring down --- flak doesn’t look so heavy”.
SKIPPER: “O.K> we’re going straight through and drop the remaining six marker flares to the north of Duisberg - - not so many fires there!”
BOMB AIMER: “O.K. Skipper, about 5 miles now, alter course starboard – a little more --- steady now that’s about it”.
SKIPPER: “Heading now 267˚ True
ROGER
“STEADY AS YOU GO”
“BOMB DOORS OPEN”
[underlined] “THEY ARE BLOODY OFF CLOT!” [/underlined]
“SORRY”
“STEADY - - STEADY”
“ALL MARKERS GONE, N.W. CORNER DUISBERG – TIME 03.47
JUST 3 MINUTES BEOFRE [sic] THE LAST AIRCRAFT IS DUE ON TARGET”
SKIPPER: “LOG THAT NAVIGATOR”
NAVIGATOR: “GOT IT SKIPPER”
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SKIPPER: “Engineer, pour the [underlined] coal on [/underlined] 2850 revs + 9 lbs. and let’s get out of here before they take more notice!”.
ENGINEER: “Roger”
NAVIGATOR: “I’ve got ‘Gee again, and a course correction to 271˚ true if you reckon to go through those searchlights!
SKIPPER: “O.K., turning onto 271˚ - speed 240 knots and weaving; how are we for time at the first homeward turning point?”
NAVIGATOR: “Just a minute, - we will be about 7 minutes late, but if you hold this speed we will be about right by the time we cross the Frisian Islands”.
SKIPPER: “O.K. we’ll do that”.
The return flight passed uneventfully until 04.16 hours heading west over the Dutch coast. Sporadic air to air firing was reported to Port (south) of track.
BOMB AIMER: “We are crossing one of the Frisian Islands, look like Terschelling!”
NAVIGATOR: “Thank you, yes it is Terschelling, about the centre!”
BOMB AIMER: “Yes, O.K.”
NAVIGATOR: “Skipper, I have a fix! Can you alter course now 8˚ to port onto 263˚ true?”
SKIPPER: O.K. Navigator, how long to the ‘GATE’?”
NAVIGATOR: I’m just working it out – hold on - . We should be at our ‘Gate’ position at 04.55 and in Wyton circuit 15 minutes later at 05.10. We have made up lost time now, in fact, we’re 2 minutes ahead”.
SKIPPER: “O.K. Thanks”
A quarter of an hour passed and then the skipper called again to the crew:
SKIPPER: “I see air to air tracer about 10 miles ahead and down near the sea. Now verey lights – RED, GREEN, RED – there’s an aircraft on fire! Can you see it Bomb aimer?”
BOMB AIMER: “yes skipper, it’s a Halifax and looks like it’s [sic] ‘bought it’ and going in!”.
WIRELESS OP: “I’ve just got a ‘Ditching Distress Mayday ‘ signal’ – they are still transmitting, I’ll try to get a fix! I make it about 2˚ to port on the D/F loop”.
- 18 -
[page break]
SKIPPER: “That is the one we see just ahead now and very low, plot this position navigator. I’m going to orbit here and let down a bit. Can you send the co-ordinates through to base on W/T wireless operator?
NAVIGATOR: “This position is 2˚ 42 minutes East and 53 3 minutes North - - wireless op, have you got that?
WIRELESS OP: “yes, O.K.”
BOMB AIMER: “That Halifax has gone into the ‘drink’ – didn’t look like a ‘ditching’ from here!”
SKIPPER: “Add that to the co-ordinates wireless operator for Air Sea Rescue [inserted] “ [/inserted] [deleted] Arthur” [/deleted]
WIRELESS OP: “WILCO”
SKIPPER: “All crew, keep your eyes peeled – I’m returning onto course 263˚ true; obviously a German night fighter got that Halifax and there are probably more about. Navigator, it’s now 04.47 and I’m going to let down to 5000 feet for the ‘Gate’ position”.
NAVIGATOR: “O.K. Skipper”
WIRELESS OP: “Skipper, I have just taken an urgent ‘Q’ signal from H.Q. BOMBER COMMAND, will de-code it in a few minutes --- I have the message now, it reads:-
“FROM HEADQUARTERS BOMBER COMMAND TO ALL HOME-BOUND BOMBER FORCE –
Time of Origin: 04.43hr.
[underlined] Message: [/underlined] BANDITS – REPEAT BANDITS ACTIVE MID – NORTH – SEA STOP ALSO EAST ANGLIA AND FENS STOP STRESS VIGILANCE STOP MESSAGE ENDS
SKIPPER: “All crew acknowledge in turn that you got that, starting with you in the rear turret Bob”.
The crew did so.
SKIPPER: “Fair enough, now really ‘WATCH IT’.
[underlined] AT 04.49 hrs. [/underlined]
NAVIGATOR: “Skipper, we lost a couple of minutes orbiting and we are at the ‘Gate’ now”.
- 19 -
[page break]
SKIPPER: “Roger, I’ll call Base! Bomber Common Frequency is No.2 button tonight, isn’t it wireless op?”
WIRELESS OP: “Yes Skipper”
SKIPPER: “CAPTAIN TO BASE – OL-‘E’ EDWARD AT GATE POSITION – ANGELS 5000 FEET REQUEST JOINING INSTRUCTIONS PLEASE?”
BASE – to ‘E’ EDWARD: ADVISE BANDITS ACTIVE THIS AREA IN PAST 30 MINUTES KEEP A GOOD LOOK OUT. LET DOWN TO ANGELS 2000 feet and SET COURSE FOR BEACON. THERE ARE 3 – REPEAT 3 – AIRCRAFT AHEAD OF YOU. CALL AGAIN AT BEACON – OUT.
SKIPPER: “CAPTAIN TO BASE – MESSAGE RECEIVED – OUT”
NAVIGATOR: “Skipper, new course 258˚ true – we should be at the Beacon in 15 minutes”
SKIPPER: “Roger!” “CAPTAIN TO BASE: - ‘E’ EDWARD overhead Beacon
BASE to ‘E’ EDWARD: WELCOME HOME – RUNWAY IS 36 – JOIN QFE 1017 – CIRCUIT ANTI-CLOCKWISE. YOU ARE No.2 TO LAND LET DOWN TO ANGELS ONE THOUSAND DOWN WIND LEG – TURN FINALS AT 2 MILES. WATCH OUT FOR APPROACHING AIRCRAFT USEING [sic] WARBOYS CIRCUIT – USE NIL – REPEAT – NIL – IDENTIFICATION LIGHTS – OUT.
SKIPPER: “CAPTAIN TO BASE CONTROL – UNDERSTAND No.2 TO LAND – OUT
Then the skipper’s instructions to Flight Engineer:
SKIPPER: “Wheels down – Props Fine
FLT. ENG. “Wheels going down – Wheels down and locked – 2 GREENS – Props Fully Fine”
SKIPPER: “Flaps 15˚”
FLT. ENG. “15 degrees Flap on – skipper, we may need a little more speed on landing due to no bomb doors and spinners gone!”
SKIPPER: “Yes, I can feel it on the controls – call out speeds from OUTER MARKER to TOUCH DOWN! I.L.S. ON”
FLT. ENG.:“Roger”
SKIPPER: “Flap 25˚ Turning finals now!”
FLT. ENG: “25˚ Flap ON” “OUTER MARKER BEACON – NOW”
- 20 -
[page break]
FLT. ENG: “HEIGHT 800 ft. – SPEED 130 knots” “HEIGHT 600 ft – SPEED 130 knots” “HEIGHT 300 ft. – SPEED 120 knots” [underlined] “INNER MARKER NOW” [/underlined]
SKIPPER: “FULL FLAP”
FLT. ENG. “FULL FLAP GOING ON – HEIGHT 150 ft. – SPEED 115 knots”
SKIPPER: “I have GLIDE ANGLE ‘GREEN’”
FLT. ENG: “HEIGHT 100 ft – SPEED 110 knots “HEIGHT 50 ft – SPEED 105 knots”
SKIPPER: “Over the hedge! CUT POWER”
FLT. ENG: “ROGER - - - Wow! A ‘daisy cutter’ – we’re down” There is another aircraft 600 yds ahead of us turning off the run-way to ‘B’ dispersal”
TOWER TO ‘E’ EDWARD: “Turn left at runway intersection and continue to your dispersal. There is another aircraft touching down behind you”
SKIPPER: “ROGER Control, turning off; - flaps up engineer”
The aircraft was beckoned into ‘E’ dispersal by one of the ground crew signalling with ‘dim’ orange coloured torches then turned through 180˚ to be positioned ‘NOSE’ towards the perimeter track after which the signalling ‘wands’ indicated an ‘X’ motion for ‘STOP ENGINES’. The time on arriving at dispersal was 05.20 hours.
After the crew had run through the ‘Shut down’ checks ensuring all switches and circuit breakers were ‘OFF’ the pilot called down:
SKIPPER: “Chocks in position fore and aft of main wheels” (then released the brakes). “O.K. everybody, that is our fifteenth trip completed, let’s have a check for flak damage before we leave dispersal for de-briefing. Be sure to bring your maps navigator”.
Checking externally around ‘E’ Edward the crew found a jagged 4” hole in the floor near the door and also, apart from the missing spinners and bomb doors that had been ripped off during their dive out of the searchlights, there were fifty+ holes peppered by flak fragments.
- 20 -
[page break]
The captain signed the ‘Serviceing [sic] F.700’: “SLIGHT FLAK DAMAGE, AND CHECK ENGINES AND PROPS FOR POSSIBLE SNAGS DUE TO OVER-SPEEDING’.
Dawn was just breaking as the crew boarded the bus for transportation to the hanger-locker rooms to change out of flying clothing prior to de-briefing.
‘E’ Edward’s crew entered the de-briefing room and were greeted by Air Commodore Don Bennett, (A.O.C. 8 Group) – “Had a good trip chaps? Glad to have you back!”
SKIPPER: “Good, but rough Sir, we’re all ready for a rum and coffee”.
Then with a pint sized cup each, the crew were beckoned to a spare de-briefing table where they were awaited by an intelligence officer and his WRAF assistant, together with the squadron navigation leader.
The time and co-ordinates of the suspected ‘ditching’ of an aircraft in the north sea were first given by ‘E’ Edward’s navigator. The Skipper, Roy Elliott then highlighted the night’s work and answered the many questions concerning the route IN/OUT, every searchlight and flak position being pin-pointed on the aircraft’s plotted route. Finally, as details of the ‘Marker’ runs across the target were given, an airman from the photographic section arrived with the developed prints taken on the first bombing run. These showed without doubt that the flares had burst over the pin-point DOCKS TARGET and about 60 yards east.
Air Commodore Bennett, who meantime had joined the group surrounding the crew congratulated them on the aiming point photograph afterwards remarking, “Off to breakfast chaps, it’s gone 06.30 and you could be ‘ON’ again tonight, so get some sleep”.
- 22 -
[page break]
CONCLUSION:- [underlined] WAS IT ALL WORTHWHILE? [/underlined]
Hitler and Nazism were thoroughly evil and the British people had no choice but to oppose this to the best of their ability as the Germans advanced and occupied other nations of Europe.
The Nazis hatred of the Jews and their determination to destroy them was proved when the horrors and atrocities of the concentration camps became known. Millions of people died in gas chambers (including little children) and it can only be concluded that Bomber Command played a vital role by bombing armament works and factories, railways and docks etc. in the slowing down of the German offensive thereby assisting the advance of the allied armies.
Whilst in retrospect it is possible for new generations to feel cynical with regard to damage to great architectural and historic cities, at the time of such a reign of horror and terror their destruction was a small price to pay in return for the freedom of so many people who were once again given the opportunity to live as human beings. Many difficult decisions and tasks had to be carried out by men of great fortitude and integrity; their only aim was to help liberate fellow men in captivity and distress. They themselves had nothing to gain from their terrible tasks in the air except the knowledge that they fought tirelessly for mastery of the air and for the doom of the Hitler tyranny, which in the words of Winston Spencer Churchill, “Would bring about a safe and happy future for tormented mankind”.
In 1939 Hitler’s power was immense when he confidently set out to conquer and subjugate the nations of Europe. The youth of Britain backed up by the faith, hope, determination and co-operation of their parents and grandparents, (which became known as ‘THE WARTIME SPIRIT’), inspired by their great leader Winston Spencer Churchill, had no choice but to accept the challenge, although at that time seemingly weak and helpless. With such a spirit of determination, and everyone [underlined] united [/underlined] in a [underlined] common cause, [/underlined] the wheels were set in motion to fight and win. All were in the frontline all the time and life was not easy, but slowly, it became possible to ‘hit back’, with Bomber Command playing a very essential part during this period of time. Surely then, there can be no question of doubt as to whether or not the work of Bomber Command was worthwhile in the part played. Indeed, were it not for the success in conquering and destroying Hitler and his armies, Britain might also have been occupied with little or no hope of survival.
- [deleted] 35 [/deleted] [inserted] 23 [/inserted] -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Strike to defend
Description
An account of the resource
A 25 page account of the preparation for, and carrying out of a maximum effort operation against Duisburg by Lancasters of 83 Squadron at RAF Wyton, part of 8 Group Bomber Command. Account provides detailed description of preparations, briefing and of the work undertaken by each crew member before and throughout the flight, and once back at base.
Creator
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G Dunmore
Date
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1942-09-06
Format
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Twenty-five page typewritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BDunmoreGDunmoreGv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-09-06
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Steve Christian
5 Group
8 Group
83 Squadron
aerial photograph
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bombing
briefing
debriefing
ditching
flight engineer
Holocaust
Lancaster
navigator
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Wyton
searchlight
target indicator
target photograph
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1213/11929/[1]DAVID AND THE RAF2 [2].pdf
35b5401702ea96880cafe22e9866fad0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Donaldson, David
David Donaldson
D Donaldson
Description
An account of the resource
309 Items and a sub-collection of 51 items. Concerns Royal Air Force career of Wing Commander David Donaldson DSO and bar, DFC. A pilot, he joined the Royal Air Force Reserve in 1934. Mobilized in 1939. he undertook tours on 149, 57 and 156 and 192 Squadrons. He was photographed by Cecil Beaton at RAF Mildenhall in 1941. Collection contains a large number of letters to and from family members, friends as well as Royal Air Force personnel. Also included are personal and service documents, and his logbooks. In addition, there are photographs of family, service personnel and aircraft. After the war he became a solicitor. The collection also contains an oral history interview with Frances Grundy, his daughter.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anna Frances Grundy and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
2022-10-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Donaldson, D
Grundy, AF
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DAVID AND THE RAF
My brother David’s very distinguished wartime career with the RAF - two DSOs and a DFC, and promotion to Wing Commander at 28 - warrants a separate appendix to these family notes. He has kindly helped me to compile it by giving me the run of his log books, and I have supplemented them from a number of other sources.
He became interested in flying in the early 1930s. I recall him taking his small brother of 9 or 10 to an air show at Eastleigh and abandoning him while he went up as passenger in a Tiger Moth doing aerobatics. That may well have given him the incentive to join the RAF Volunteer Reserve in 1934 as a weekend pilot. He did much of his training at Hamble, on the Solent. When war broke out in September 1939 he was called up immediately and had to abandon his legal training. He spent the “phoney war” towing target drogues at a bombing and gunnery school at Evanton in Scotland. His log books show him rated as an “average” pilot.
At the end of April 1940, just before the Germans attacked in the West, he went to Brize Norton for intermediate training (earning an “above-average” rating) and then to Harwell for operational training on Wellingtons, the main twin-engined heavy bomber of the early war years. On 20th September, just as the Battle of Britain was ending, he was posted to his first operational squadron, No 149, part of No 3 Group, at the big pre-war air station at Mildenhall. His first operational sortie was over Calais towards the end of September, no doubt to attack the invasion barges.
Over the following five months he took part in some 31 night raids. The German defence at this time was relatively feeble by comparison with what was to follow, and so the tour was correspondingly tolerable; however bitter experience had shown that day bombing was much too costly, and the night bombing techniques were very inaccurate. His first raid on Berlin, at the end of October, was particularly eventful; they got hopelessly lost on their return, came in over Bristol, and ended up over Clacton as dawn was breaking with very little fuel left. There both the Army and the Navy opened up on them, and even the Home Guard succeeded in putting a bullet through the wing. They eventually made a forced crash landing at St Osyth. The Home Guard commander, a retired general, entertained him generously and he finally got back to Mildenhall where his Group Captain forgave him for the damaged aircraft and advised him to go out and get drunk. He took the advice, and in the pub he met a WAAF whom he married eight months later (maybe that is why he remembers that particular day so well.)
The gauntlet of Friendly Fire seems to have been a not uncommon hazard to be faced. On another occasion, when he had to make three circuits returning to Mildenhall, the airfield machine gunners opened fire on him from ground level; he thought they were higher up and judged his height accordingly, and narrowly missed the radio masts which were not, as he thought, below him.
The longest raids on this tour were trips of over ten hours to Italy: to Venice, which they overflew at low level, and to the Fiat works at Turin. He described the latter raid, and the spectacular views of the Alps it afforded, in a BBC broadcast in December 1940. The commonest targets were the Ruhr and other German cities, and some raids were made at lower level on shipping in French ports. The raid which won him the DFC was on 22nd November, on Merignac aerodrome near Bordeaux, which “difficult target he attacked from a height of 1,500 feet and successfully bombed hangars, causing large fires and explosions. As a result of his efforts the task of following aircraft was made easier ......... He has at all times displayed conspicuous determination and devotion to duty.”
It was at Mildenhall that he featured in a series of propaganda photos by Cecil Beaton,
“A Day in the Life of a Bomber Pilot”; they were given a good deal of publicity and in fact David appears in one of them on the cover of the recently published video of the 1941 propaganda film “Target for Tonight”, also made with the help of 149 Squadron - though he did not take part in the film. Beaton describes the occasion at some length in his published diaries, though he has thoroughly scrambled the names and personalities, and he “demoted“ David from captain to co-pilot in his scenario.
On completion of this tour, early in March 1941, David was detached on secondment to the Air Ministry to assist with buying aircraft in North America, and later to ferry aircraft within North America and across the Atlantic - he flew the Atlantic at least twice in Hudsons, taking 12 hours or more.
The “chop rate” in Bomber Command increased substantially during the first half of 1941. [Footnote: The average sortie life of aircrew in the Command was never higher than 9.2 and at one time was as low as eight, and during the dark days of 1941-1943 the average survival chances of anyone starting a 30-sortie tour was consistently under 40% and sometimes under 30%. In one disastrous raid, on Nuremburg in March 1944, 795 planes set out, 94 were shot down and another 12 crashed in Britain. During the war as a whole, out of some 125,000 aircrew who served with Bomber Command, 55,500 died.] This coupled with increasing doubts about the value of the results obtained led to a serious decline in aircrew morale. During the summer of 1941 the Germans had considerable success with intruders - fighter aircraft attacking the bombers as they took off or landed at their own bases. At the end of September David returned to No 3 Group and joined No 57 Squadron at Feltwell, still with Wellingtons. His third raid, over Dusseldorf on October 13th, was particularly difficult; they were badly shot up and with their hydraulics out of action they crash landed at Marham on their return. After two more raids the strain finally proved too much and he was admitted to hospital just before Christmas 1941; for the next two months he was there or on sick leave. From then until mid-July he was Group Tactical Officer at HQ No 3 Group, and not directly involved in operations. In July 1942 he was posted to No 15 Operational Training Unit, at Harwell and Hampstead Norris, where he spent six months as a flight commander flying Ansons and Wellingtons, though he did participate in one raid on Dusseldorf while he was there.
In spite of the appointment of Harris early in 1942 and the introduction of the Gee radio navigational aid, results were still considered disappointing, particularly over the Ruhr, and serious questions were raised about the future of Bomber Command. To improve matters, in August 1942 the elite Pathfinder Force was set up under Don Bennett, albeit in the face of considerable opposition from most of the group commanders who were reluctant to lose their best crews to it. At least initially, all the crews joining it had to be volunteers, and to be ready to undertake extended tours. Their task was to fly ahead of the Main Force in four waves: the Supporters, mainly less experienced crew carrying HE bombs, who were to saturate the defences and draw the flak; the Illuminators, who lit up the aiming point with flares; and the Primary Markers and Backers Up who marked the aiming point with indicators. Their methods became more and more refined as the war went on. The increased accuracy required of them, and their position at the head of the bomber stream, inevitably exposed them to greater danger and a higher casualty rate than those of the Main Force.
No 156 Squadron was one of the original units in the Force; it operated from the wartime airfield of Warboys with Wellingtons until the end of 1942 and thereafter with 4-engined Lancasters, the very successful heavy bomber which was the mainstay of Bomber Command in the later years. The squadron flew a total of 4,584 sorties with the loss of 143 aircraft - a ratio of 3.12%. David joined it in January 1943, again as a flight commander. In the following four months he carried out a further 23 raids (all but one as a pathfinder) in Lancasters. The log books note occasional problems - “coned”, “shot up on way in”, “slight flak damage”, and so on. [Footnote: "Coned" = caught in a cone of converging searchlights, an experience which he says put him off hunting for life.] Much of the period became known as the Battle of the Ruhr, though other targets were also being attacked. He told me once that the raid he was really proud to have been on was the one where instead of marking the targeted town (I think Dortmund) they marked in error a nearby wood, which the main force behind them duly obliterated; only after the war did the Germans express their admiration for the British Intelligence which had identified the highly secret installation hidden in the wood.........
One of the pages in his log book has a cutting from the Times inserted, evidently dated some years later, recalling how in April 1943 the spring came very early and the hedges were billowing with white hawthorn blossom. This puzzled me until I read in a book on 156 Squadron how that blossom had come to have the same significance for them as the Flanders poppies of the 1914-1918 war.
David was promoted to Wing Commander half way through the tour (pathfinders rated one rank above the comparable level elsewhere), and awarded the DSO towards the end of it. The recommendation for this said that he had “at all times pressed home his attacks with the utmost determination and courage in the face of heavy ground defences and fighters. As a pilot he shows powers of leadership and airmanship which have set an outstanding example to the rest of the squadron” - and Bennett himself added, noting that David had just flown four operational sorties in the last five days, “he has provided an example of determination and devotion to duty which it would be difficult to equal.”
On the end of this tour in June 1943, he was sent to command No 1667 Conversion Unit at Lindholme and later Faldingworth. In December 1943 he transferred to a staff appointment at the headquarters of the newly formed 100 (SD) Group at West Raynham and later Bylaugh Hall. At this stage in the war the methods of attack and defence were growing increasingly complex, and this group was formed as a Bomber Support Group, including nightfighters, deceptive measures, and radio countermeasures (RCM). In June 1944, just after D-Day, he was given command of No 192 (SD) Squadron based at Foulsham, another wartime airfield. This squadron had been formed in January 1943 as a specialist RCM unit, and it pioneered this type of operation in Bomber Command; it flew more sorties and suffered more losses (19 aircraft) than any other RCM squadron. While RCM and electronic intelligence were its primary purpose, its aircraft often carried bombs and dropped them on the Main Force targets. RCM took a number of forms - swamping enemy radar and jamming it with “window” tinfoil, looking for new radar types and gaps in its coverage, deceptive R/T transmissions to nightfighters, and so on - and one of the attractions of the work was the considerable measure of autonomy, and the freedom to plan their own operations. These extended to tasks such as searching for V2 launch sites (recorded as “whizzers” in David’s log book) and trying to identify the radio signals associated with them, and supporting the invasion of Walcheren in September. The squadron was equipped with Wellingtons (phased out at the end of 1944), Halifaxes and Mosquitoes, plus a detachment of USAAF Lightnings.
This role was the climax of his career, and lasted until the end of the war and after. It involved him in 25 operational sorties, all in Halifax IIIs, the much improved version of this initially disappointing 4-engined heavy bomber. They carried special electronic equipment and an extra crew member known as the Special Operator. The record of these sorties in the log books, for the most part so formal and statistical up to this point, becomes a little more anecdotal: “rubber-necking on beach” (when he took two senior officers to see the breaching of the dykes at Walcheren), “Munster shambles”, “Lanc blew up and made small hole in aircraft [but only] 4 lost out of 1200!” The furthest east he went was to Gdynia in Poland; on returning from there he had the privilege of becoming the first heavy aircraft to land at Foulsham using the FIDO fog dispersal system. “Finger Finger Fido” was the cryptic comment in the log book.
A number of these sorties were daytime; on one of them, on September 13th, he was chased home by two ME109s which made six attacks on him. One of them opened fire but thanks to violent evasive action his aircraft was undamaged: his own gunners never got a chance to fire. No doubt it was skill of this sort, as well as his survival record, which gave his crew great faith in David’s ability to get them home safely. An encounter on December 29th 1944, on a Window patrol over the Ruhr, was not quite so satisfying; they claimed to have damaged a Ju88 which subsequently proved to be an unhurt Mosquito X from Swannington - and the Mosquito had identified them as a Lancaster. The log entry concludes “Oh dear. FIDO landing, flew into ground. What a day.”
He was awarded a bar to his DSO in July 1945. The recommendation, made in March, recorded that “since being posted to his present squadron he has carried out every one of his sorties in the same exemplary fashion and has set his crews an extremely high standard of devotion to duty and bravery. This standard has had a direct influence on the whole specialist work of the squadron.
“He has been personally responsible for the planning of all the sorties carried out by his special duty unit and by his brilliant understanding and quick appreciation of the everchanging nature of the investigational role of his squadron, much of the success of the investigations performed by his aircraft can be attributed to him. He has shown himself to be fearless and cool in the face of danger, and towards the end of his tour made a point of putting himself on the most arduous and difficult operations.
“Both on the ground and in the air he has been untiring and has not spared himself in his efforts to get his squadron up to the high standard which it has now reached.”
The squadron was disbanded in September, by which time David had completed 501 hours of operations against the enemy in 86 sorties, the great majority of them as captain of his aircraft. He had no ambition to make a permanent career in the RAF; he has commented to Richard that this fact gave him a degree of independence in his dealing with his superiors that he thinks they appreciated and valued. He was demobilised in November and returned to his interrupted law studies.
* * * * * * * * * *
I showed these notes to David, who thought them well written but suggested that they gave a twisted view of the reality - a reaction that I can understand. Since then, however, I have managed to contact one man who flew with David: H B (Hank) Cooper DSO DFC, who first met David in 149 Squadron which he joined in January 1941 as a wireless operator / air gunner for his first tour, and later did two tours as a Special Operator in 192 Squadron, the second of them under David's command. On two occasions he flew as a member of David's crew.
He has written of David that "he was always completely fearless and outstandingly brave and pressed home his attacks to the uttermost. As the Squadron's CO he generated loyalty and warmth, he was an outstanding model to follow. He spent much trouble and time encouraging his junior air crews as well as helping and seeing to the needs of the ground technicians who serviced the aircraft, generally in cold and difficult conditions. He was completely non-boastful, in fact he belittled his own actions (which were always of the highest order) when discussing air operations. [That rings very true!] He was an outstanding squadron commander in all respects, much liked and completely respected by all his air crews and ground crews."
G N D
March 2002
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
David and the RAF
Description
An account of the resource
Account of Wing Commander David Donaldson's RAF career from his early interest in flying and joining the Royal Air Force volunteer reserve in 1934, call up in 1939 and operational tours on 149 Squadron, 57 Squadron, flight commander 156 Squadron pathfinders and commanding 192 (special duties) squadron. Includes training, descriptions of notable operations and incidents, postings between tours to headquarters and training units, pathfinder techniques, radio countermeasures and award of two Distinguished Service Orders and a Distinguished Flying Cross.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
G N Donaldson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2002-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four page printed document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BDonaldsonGNDonaldsonDWv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Hampshire
England--Hamble-le-Rice
England--Eastleigh
England--Oxfordshire
England--Norfolk
Scotland--Ross and Cromarty
Scotland--Evanton
England--Suffolk
England--Huntingdonshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Bristol
England--Essex
England--Clacton-on-Sea
Italy
Italy--Venice
Italy--Turin
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dortmund
Netherlands
Netherlands--Walcheren
England--Berkshire
France
France--Bordeaux Region (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Poland
Poland--Gdynia
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Gloucestershire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1934
1939
1940-04
1940-09-20
1940-10
1940-12
1941-10-22
1941
1941-04
1942
1942-07
1942-08
1943
1943-01
1943-04
1943-06
1944
1944-06
1944-09-13
1944-12-29
1945
1945-07
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Frances Grundy
100 Group
149 Squadron
15 OTU
156 Squadron
1667 HCU
192 Squadron
3 Group
57 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
FIDO
forced landing
Gee
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 109
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
P-38
Pathfinders
pilot
propaganda
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Evanton
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Feltwell
RAF Foulsham
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Warboys
RAF West Raynham
target indicator
training
Wellington
Window
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1162/11721/ATiptonJ170610.2.mp3
f8912bd49e04249ec7547cc4487572d8
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Title
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Tipton, John
John E Tipton
J E Tipton
Description
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An oral history interview with Wing Commander John Tipton DFC (1917 - 2017, 129444 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 40 and 109 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-06-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Tipton, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GC: Ok. Hello. This is Gary Clarke and I’m interviewing John Tipton today at his home in Tenby for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. Thank you, John for seeing me today. And there’s nobody else present today and Mr Tipton is happy for the interview to carry on on that basis. Is that ok Mr Tipton?
JT: Yeah.
GC: Ok. Ok. We’d like to, could we start with where you were born?
JT: Well, my name is John Tipton. I was born in Penally, near Tenby.
GC: Ok.
JT: In 1917.
GC: Right.
JT: And I spent my youth all around Tenby. My parents, who were hoteliers in Tenby. And I went to university at University College London. And from there the war broke out just before I graduated, and so I joined the Air Force immediately on the outbreak of war.
GC: Right.
JT: Because I was a member of the University Officer Training Corps anyway.
GC: Yeah.
JT: And [pause] but then they left me to graduate until June 1940 and I, then I joined the Air Force proper. I trained at Pershore, which is outside Worcester and various other places. Prestwick and Porthcawl and Pershore. And from there I went to 40 Squadron in Bomber Command. I arrived there in June ’41, I think and we did some operations from our base at Alconbury which was a satellite of Wyton. And then we were turned out to be the mobile squadron of 3 Group and we went to Malta ‘til, and where I carried on until I finished my tour. There’s not much to say about it.
GC: Ok. You mentioned you were born in 1917 which is in the First World War. So presumably your mum and dad would have had memories of the First World War as well.
JT: They did indeed. I was born on my mother’s birthday in 1917 and my father was away in the war. He was a member of the Royal Flying Corps which became the RAF. And ground crew of course because he was quite old at the time. Forty seven I think. And that’s all I remember. Remember of my dad.
GC: Right. You were very young.
JT: Yes. And I was brought up in Tenby and went to school in Tenby and I went from there to university in London. UCL in London. And at the end of that time we’d got another war on our hands. And so I joined, I joined the Air Force and the training was, the Canadian training had not started at that time. So as I’d been recruited as a navigator we had to wait some time for navigation training which took me to a place at a civilian school at Prestwick.
GC: Right.
JT: I finally succeeded in getting in and then training, and finished my training and went to Wyton. To 40 Squadron where I operated for a short time. And then the squadron went to Malta and stayed in Malta for the rest of my time there. In fact, Malta although we had originally gone on a six week tour the squadron stayed there and stayed in the Middle East for the rest of the time. We came back. Then I instructed at a Wellington OTU for approximately [pause] and I was very fortunate because I went on holiday to Torquay, I think, with a couple of friends. and we met an Australian there. And he said, when we parted he said, ‘I can’t tell you anything about it but I belong to a very interesting squadron which is flying very interesting aircraft and we’re looking for people like you. Well, that was — I was baited [laughs]. I couldn’t resist. Anyway, and so I, he saw his CO and I saw my CO and I rapidly went to 109 Squadron and I found myself on Oboe Mosquitoes.
GC: Wow.
JT: From where I remained until I’d completed seventy operations altogether. And then I went to, that was supposed to be as many as you could stand but one morning we woke up and listened, turned on the radio and found out it was D-Day. And so we immediately rang our old squadron. I was there with this other Scotsman and we got back and we actually operated on D-Day before that and —
GC: So, was, was that with you say your old squadron? Was that with 40 Squadron then or 109?
JT: No. No. Not 40. In the masters. We were in 109. And so I started a third tour against, we operated from D-Day through to the closing of the Falaise Gap which saw the last of the Germans bundled out of France. And so it was a rather nice finish. Then I was, my pilot who was Australian was posted back to Australia and well, I was willing to carry on and many people did. The group commander navigation officer said no. I’d done enough. And so I, by which time my total operations were a hundred and four. And so, I still wanted to see action so I trained as a controller on Oboe which was what we, what our squadron was using. And I went as an Oboe controller and I went to Holland and saw the rest of the war out in Holland.
GC: So, you spent a lot of time, you know to do, is it a hundred and four. A hundred and four operations and then you still volunteered then to go to Holland to help with the Mosquito directions then was it? Or —
JT: Yeah. Well, 109 Squadron and later 105 they operated as Pathfinders using equipment called Oboe. And this we were called was anti-aircraft ground control. And the, and the ground control stations followed the army up through France, Holland and Belgium. And so, I was in Holland until virtually the end until we crossed the Rhine and went across into Germany and finally came to an end. The end of the war. And we, I returned to Britain and started life in the peacetime Air Force.
GC: Yeah, so —
JT: Having been awarded a permanent commission.
GC: Of course. Yeah. So, in in this time, so you’d done, well being from the time of volunteering and becoming operational was about, was that four years?
JT: About that I suppose.
GC: About four years. And did you get to see your family much in that time?
JT: We had leave every six weeks in Bomber Command. Which was very good because by having a fixed term leave you only had six weeks to look ahead. The Americans on the other hand operated on a different system and people did a tour of thirty operations and they didn’t see anything. They had leave in between but the leave was really according to requirement. And this was very bad, and bad for morale because we only looked six weeks ahead and they looked, had to look ahead to thirty operations and back to America and it was bad for morale. I think we, the Air Force had really studied a book which was written by Lord Moran, I think who was Churchill’s doctor and had been a doctor during the First World War. And he wrote a book called, “The Anatomy Of Courage.” Which really meant that you’d got, each individual had a certain amount of courage to use up. You could either use it at one or you could spin it out. And the I think the Air Force learned this lesson and it was a very good one because by looking only six weeks ahead to the next leave there was always hope of survival in that length of time. And the, so you, you never looked in to a, into infinity as Americans did. And so I think that Bomber Command was an extraordinary organisation, and quite wonderful. And there was really no more of a problem physical anyway at all that you saw and I think it was because they’d followed this principal of rationing the use of a man’s courage. I think it’s a short amount.
GC: They could look after their crews then, were they?
JT: Yes. And they looked after the men much better which was good.
GC: So, do you remember how you originally crewed up together then for 40 Squadron or —
JT: Crewing up. Well, crewing up for 109 Squadron which of course was two, which was very simply done on the squadron but the crewing up for Wellingtons was very odd. They put everybody, because they went, they arrived at OTU and there did a certain amount of ground school. The pilots did taxiing and so on. They were learning to fly the aircraft. And navigators did navigation school. The gunners, the wireless operators did ground school. Then one day they put them all in a bunch and they said, ‘Now sort yourselves out into crews.’ God knows why. It was very odd and, but it worked remarkably well because they didn’t know each other. Perhaps in different training streams up and down at the time. And it completed with room full of strangers and the thing with strangers the pilots found a navigator. Then the two of them found a wireless operator and the rest of them found a rear gunner. It worked. I don’t know why it worked but it did.
GC: Yeah. So, so was your first crew with 40 Squadron, were they all British or were they multi-national?
JT: They were all British. And as I said the pilot was a clerk with the dashboard err with the Gas Board in Windsor. The two wireless operators were schoolboys really. And I was out of university. And the rear gunner was a mature chap, a butcher by trade from Gateshead.
GC: So was he —
JT: A butcher.
GC: Was he the smallest then if he was the tail gunner?
JT: No. He wasn’t. No. Quite a reasonable size. And we carried on then together until one day in Malta we were lined up because in Malta you couldn’t keep the aircraft on the airfield because they wanted to get immediately get a bomb to it because the aircraft, the island was permanently overflown by the Luftwaffe who were only ten minutes away anyway. So the aircraft were taxied out at, by last light from a place called Safi Strip where they had an airstrip. And then they were brought up and operated and they were taxied back again before it got light to keep everybody safe if they could. But this night we were all brought up and they were lined up ready and we were going off first to see because we did a weather check. One aircraft would go and check the weather for the others because you know as soon as we split up and [unclear] very great. And so we were the only crew up there at that time. And a German intruder dropped a bomb. Apparently, apparently right in, in the middle of us. And we were gathered together under the double identifier, the light of the aircraft, in a little circle. Just the aircrew plus one member of the ground crew. And we were all thrown in different directions and I landed under the port wing tip about thirty feet away. And I was alright except for a piece of shrapnel in my leg which wasn’t too difficult at the time and went back to the aircraft which was then burning. And under the aircraft was the pilot and I thought that he was still alive and went and fetched him and dragged him clear. And the ground crew member, he had found the rear gunner who had lost his leg. And the, so we had the four members, the four only near the aircraft. We dragged the two bodies clear until the, and we dug ourselves in more or less while the tanks went up with raw fuel. And then again we dug ourselves in until the bombs went off. And then people approached the aircraft and found us and took us away to sick, to sick quarters. And I was, I wasn’t kept very long but poor Sydney, he lost his leg. There’s a photograph of him after the war because he actually got a false leg and he stayed in the Air Force for some years after. After the war. And he, he continued to fly but not operationally of course. And it was rather amusing because people had all sorts of mascots of their own which they hanged, draped across the navigation table and his mascot happened to be my scarf. I didn’t know. But after he had got a false leg he went flying again and he wrote to me and asked if he could, if I would send him my scarf because it had been his mascot. Which was a perfectly ordinary scarf I used to wear because the aircrew overalls were rough around the neck. Well, it had no sentimental value for me at all. I thought it was rather amusing. That was quite something. And, and as I said before I went to OTU and trained crews for operations. And went from there to Mosquitoes. Which was very fortunate again I landed on Mosquitoes where the loss rate was lower than the main force. And also had the the satisfaction of knowing exactly what you’d done by the time you came back. You had a record of exactly what you’d, what you’d done. So you had knowledge of how you’d, how you’d finished. Oboe was radar control and it was very satisfying work that you knew just what you’d achieved by the end. And I stayed there until I totalled seventy operations. And then I went off test flying with not of my old pals but with another chap. And we woke one morning listening to the news and found it was D-day. So we rang the squadron and we found our way back that day. We operated before D-Day was over and we stayed and we re-joined our original crews and continued until, as I say the Battle of Falaise Gap which the Americans were pushing the Germans down from one end and we were pushing the Germans from another. The Falaise Gap was the gap between the two from which the Germans were escaping from France into Germany. So I did succeed in seeing it all. In seeing France cleared of Germany. Which was very satisfying.
GC: So then, so how was your Mosquito set up? Was it set up for bombing then or —
JT: Well, Mosquitoes came in every shape and size. Well, same shape and size but inside there was various things. Ours were Pathfinder Mosquitoes and they were well equipped with a fairing in the nose. And they were very intriguing to other, to the members of the, of a Lancaster squadron on the same station because we used to go out to the aircraft just carrying a little board with us with a [unclear] map on it and, and nothing else when they were loaded down with maps and sextants and things which we were used to, being on Wellingtons. But we just used to climb on board the two of us. And —
GC: So, as with being in the Mosquito and, let’s say the Pathfinder then — so before the operations who would you be going, who would you be with in discussing the actual operation? How it was going to go ahead.
JT: We had a very careful briefing of course. But once the briefing was over then we operated, as we dropped a marker bomb [unclear]. And although we, we dropped a fresh marker every two minutes throughout the duration of the bombing so we had a fresh marker in case we bombed out or something. And so we put a fresh one down every two minutes. And of course the aircraft, you know the number of aircraft and there it was. We came back and we found out what we’d done. A little chart of our bombing run by that time and we saw our error at the end and the error was nearly always within fifty yards which was nothing really when you were following up a thousand bombers. And so it was very satisfying work because not only was it satisfying from doing a good job in a nice aircraft but you found out how well you’d done when you went home.
GC: So, how far ahead would you be in a Mosquito of the main force? The main attacking force.
JT: We had, we continued during the operation of the main force with two minutes follow up. So that we kept a marker going throughout the whole of the raid. But our original one went out. Then saw two minutes ahead so that the bomber crews flying and searching, flying and when they were two minutes off the target and saw the marker ahead they went to bomb the marker, turned and came home.
GC: Yeah. One thing I was really trying to understand as well is obviously you say all these squadrons came amassed together then, didn’t they?
JT: Yes.
GC: From different airfields in the UK.
JT: Yes.
GC: How long would it take for them to —
JT: Assemble.
GC: To assemble. Yeah.
JT: I don’t know. But less than an hour. But of course they were assembling only because then every, any, every individual aircraft in Bomber Command operated by itself. And it handled its own navigation and it dropped bombs as an individual on the target. Whereas the Americans of course operated in daylight and they operated an entirely different system. They, and they all dropped on a lead navigator. I don’t know. It wasn’t as an effective bombing. Omaha Beach for example which because immediately before the landings off the ships there was a force of Bomber Command hitting the beach defences. So that they’d be stunned by the chaps arrived off the ships and the landing craft. And the British or Canadian beaches were well covered. And one of the American beaches was well covered too. But the, but Omaha Beach the formation missed entirely and they dropped their bombs way behind the beach leaving the Omaha Beach defences almost intact. With the result that Omaha was a terrible battle to gain a foothold and they had awful losses there. But they don’t, the Americans never mentioned why it happened. It happened because of the failure of the Air Force.
[recording paused]
GC: So, what was [pause]
JT: Could have been anywhere. They’re not chronological.
GC: So, let’s say we go back to Malta. What was the airfield like in Malta? What was the base like? Was it mainly British there or —
JT: All British.
GC: Yeah.
JT: Apart from Maltese of course [laughs] And the airfield, as I said you couldn’t leave aircraft on the airfield because the Germans were in strength and were only twelve minutes flying away. So they operated over freely. We had no fighters when we were there. And we’d originally had four old Hurricanes I think and they were all shot down because they, Malta had very poor radar to the north. And so that’s where the Germans came from [laughs] and they frequently missed the top cover entirely. And I think these four old Hurricanes and we, they disappeared all at the same time. Mainly because they didn’t set off [unclear] . The main thing anyway, of course the famous lot were Faith, Hope and Charity. Three Sea Gladiators which were in, stacked up in packing cases and they took them out of the packing case and they were flown by staff officers and the main purpose was to keep safe rather than get shot down. But never the less their purpose was tremendous morale. And Faith, Hope and Charity were famous aircraft at that time. And then we had occasional fighters we mainly got in in ones and twos. But otherwise at that time there was nothing.
GC: So were there, were, the billets were obviously away from the airfield then were they? So you could keep safe? Or not?
JT: Originally the aircrew lived in a place called [pause] it was a hospital anyway and half a nunnery. Because we arrived in Malta at night of course as one obviously would and found a bed for the night and got up in the morning and just wearing a pair of pyjama trousers and a towel around the shoulder I went out and immediately met a couple of nuns [laughs] You know. And that’s how it was. Then they split us up to spread us around the island. And we were in a place called the National Palace. And it was very poor because we were very poorly looked after and we used to live, the only food we had was really Maconochie’s meat and vegetable stew. I don’t know where they got it from but they got piles of it and we had to wait in turn for a spoon because there were only, we were about a hundred I suppose in the sergeant’s part and I think we only had three or four or five spoons between us. We had to wait until, meat and vegetable stew which was horrible. I remember after the war when I was married my wife bought a tin which she managed to buy. A triumph. But it took, the sight of it turned me off. And we, as I say we were very poorly looked after mainly due to this same management who’d didn’t keep records of the flying. Because they, it didn’t matter at all really and so we were fed this way. And you know it was a pity but there we are.
GC: So, were there on, on, were there opportunity to socialise with the local Maltese people or —
JT: No. No opportunities at all because as I say the squadron broke many records. We were operating virtually every night. So you slept in the daytime and operated at night. And we did the whole time. We didn’t know any Maltese. I knew them afterwards of course. I’ve been back and forth to Malta since then. But they’re fine people but we didn’t see much of them.
GC: So, are your operations in Malta, are they in to North Africa or into Europe or a mixture?
JT: Oh, variously. A lot in to Italy. And a lot into Greece and North Africa. We spread ourselves around quite, quite a bit. As well as we could. There were two Wellington squadrons. One Merlin engined Wellington from 4 Group, I think. Or 5 Group. And Wellington 1Cs from 3 Group. So, but we didn’t see much of the other squadrons we had because we were billeted in different parts of the island.
GC: And the engines coped ok with the heat in Malta?
JT: They seemed to. Yes. With all the difficulties the ground crew did a remarkable job I think. As they usually do in keeping them serviced. As I said you taxied off the airfield and hidden away in a place called Safi Strip for the daytime and were only brought out at night.
[pause]
JT: It was an odd place to operate but I think worthwhile. I’m very glad I was there. If only because I’ve since had connections with Malta and feel very close to it.
[pause]
GC: So then you did — was it forty four?
JT: Sorry?
GC: How many operations did you do with 40 Squadron?
JT: Thirty [pause] thirty four I think. And I did seventy with 109.
GC: Did you have a choice to — when you went to 109 was there a choice with whether you became crew of a Mosquito or Pathfinder Lanc or Lancaster then?
JT: 109 was solely Mosquitoes.
GC: It was. Right.
JT: 582 was our sister Lancaster squadron on the same station. And then 105 Squadron which was a low level Mosquito squadron that converted on to Oboe and sent to us. So we had two squadrons going. And after the aircrew were interchangeable between the two squadrons but they didn’t live together. We lived separately because I think the eggs in one basket principle finally split us up because we operated on behalf of the whole of the Command and I think before the invasion they felt slightly vulnerable to do things like parachute raids or something on more vulnerable airfields. And if I’d had all the Pathfinders, all the Oboe Pathfinders which were particularly accurate. You couldn’t have them all on one station. So this was better.
GC: Could the Germans detect Oboe? Were they able to?
JT: Did they detect it? Well, yes because they had to. As well as the fact the Oboe had a very interesting history because it started off with a flight of aircraft, Ansons really trying to find out how the Germans managed to bomb so accurately during their Blitz on England. And from that Oboe developed in a, it was very interesting because Oboe was very much better than the Germans because they could only, oh you know [pause] but it was, it had a strange development but it turned out to be very good. Very good indeed. It could put the marker down within fifty yards. And you usually theoretically zero depending on your, on the aerodynamics of the marker bomb was but they were very carefully looked after to try and ensure that the aerodynamics were right.
[pause]
GC: Did you have any superstitions? Or —
JT: No. Not at all.
GC: Or rituals or anything? No.
JT: None at all. People used to collect in my Wellington days. The people were superstitious. They all had mascots which they used to drape around the table. I remember having a bra on the, hung on the knobs of my astrodome [laughs] and I don’t know whose they were. I had none at all. And quite deliberately. I reckoned it was a bad thing to have mascots which you were likely to lose. But so I had no superstitions of any sort. Which is better I think. Then of course once the war ended I, the peacetime Air Force was rather busy. I rather expected it to be very leisurely and I could continue with my law studies but I didn’t have time. I was kept nose to the grindstone doing courses and things. And I went to New Zealand and I was there for two and a half years. Came back. Went to Staff College which the entrance exam was held while I was in New Zealand so I tried there. And from Staff College I went to command a squadron. 527 Squadron which is, and the distinction of being the largest squadron in the Air Force at the time. Probably not so big as wartime. And from then on I went to a variety of jobs until I sorted the, I went back to the station, the only active station in the Air Force, and found very very paper bound. And so I tried the Civil Service exam and fortunately I passed it. I said entry to the civil service at a rank higher than my, I was leaving the Air Force as a wing commander and entering the civil service as a principal which was a rank up. [unclear] And I went on from there. And, and a way, for a process like that. I think it was a good, a good time to leave the Air Force. And I had the best of it.
GC: So, and where were you living at that time?
JT: We lived at Farnborough. Purely for commuting purposes.
[pause]
JT: And when I left the civil service it was time to retire anyway.
GC: Yeah. And you did some volunteering then as well afterwards.
JT: Sorry I did what?
GC: You did some volunteering then afterwards.
JT: Oh yes. I had to find something to do in Tenby. I was willing to do anything but I was very fortunate in getting hold of the museum and being the curator there for thirteen years was very rewarding. I was very lucky [pause] At which point I retired. I quite enjoyed myself. Very.
GC: So was it easy? Was it easy to get home on your, on your leave? When you had leave?
JT: Oh, perfectly easy. After we’d landed anyway. And we used to [pause] my Australian pilot he would normally come home on leave with me and we used to spend a night in London and then come to Tenby. And he, when he went back to Australia I was posted back. That was when I finished because the group navigation officer, a chap called John Searby said I’d better stop. I thought the war was coming to an end at that time. I mean driven the Germans out of France in some state of confusion. But of course there was a lot of war left. But I saw that in as a controller in Holland which was very miserable and intense but it passed all right. But Holland was very dark. They’d taken the occupation very hard I think. But we used to have a headquarters down in Brussels. And occasionally we used to have to go to Brussels and it was like, going into Belgium I think they’d taken the occupation much more lightly. They’d been in the black market and all sorts of activities I think. And they’d survived very much better. And they really, that was a lot of fun. While Holland had no fun at all. None at all. But they had lots going on in Brussels. And you could buy, I don’t know why, but the Germans had only just left. We followed in after and you could buy anything in Brussels. Things you wouldn’t imagine, you know. Like beautiful notepaper. Lined notepaper. Perfume. I remember standing by a fellow saying I could use a bottle of Chanel Number 5. And unfortunately she, at a mess party she left it for the entire, anyone to take a turn at it and somebody knocked it over. The place must have stank [laughs] But it was amazing how all these things were available.
[pause]
JT: But I said we’d been to New Zealand [unclear] all we did was in Paris so it was never easy. I was at SHAPE headquarters which was Supreme Headquarter Europe which was out of Versailles. And life was very easy. And there I was in air intelligence. I was chief of air, of air intelligence and my deputy was a German. The head of the, of the sort of branch which dealt with a lot of things was an Italian. And although I’d got a Norwegian and somebody else in my group I got on terribly well with the German and the Italian. Which I don’t know whether it was accident or design but the German was great fun and we, not only did we get on well together but we felt great friends with the [pause] and the Italian was remarkable because he’d been a prisoner of war in Kenya. He was taken, and they’d kept on as he was an officer and they’d farmed him out to families and he married the daughter of the family. Then this daughter inherited this great business in Kenya and inherited another big business in South Africa. And then unfortunately she died and so he left. Alberto left the Air Force for some time but obviously he’d got two children and he was looking after them because the children inherited a lot of money from the two sides of his wife’s family. And so he stayed out of the Air Force, out of the army actually for some time and looked after the finances. And he was terribly, he didn’t profit out of it at all. Not at all. He dedicated his life to them. Eventually he married again. A Dutch woman whose husband was the, whose father was the head of medical services to the Italian army, I think. And they had two children. Lovely children. But he made it quite clear that the children, the elder children of his first marriage were looked after and he had all their money sorted away in Switzerland to avoid tax as Italians do. And he, and so dedicated his life really to two children of his first marriage. Which was rather hard on his second wife naturally. But I mean I’ve never known anyone quite as ethical. Alberto.
GC: Did you keep in touch with the German chap you mentioned?
JT: Oh yes. Until he died eventually. Then his wife died. And I was in touch with his daughters after that. He had two daughters. And one was in Singapore at the same time as my daughter was living in Singapore. Both my [unclear] my people in the process and did very well. But one of the German daughters came and lived with us for about six months learning English. The German, he was the second chap in the job. The first one was very laid back, an Austrian who was, he was as laid back as you imagine [unclear] to be. He was a fighter pilot. And it was only after the war he elected to be to take German nationality because he’d had a house which had been destroyed in bombing. And the only way he could get compensation for that was by taking German nationality. But he was a very laid back chap the second one. The one I took which was a friend of mine he was he never met an Englishmen before. And he’d learned English because after the war of course they were left abandoned. So he went to university to do architecture and when they opened the forces again he re-joined the German forces as an architect and he was on airfield building for quite some time. Then he joined and came in to intelligence and but he, he was apparently very serious to start with. He was a Prussian. And he was, he’d never met an Englishman before. But we sort of became great friends.
[pause]
GC: Ok then. Mr Tipton, is there anything else you can think of? Or anything else you want to say?
JT: I don’t think so [pause] So, after the war I went around various things in the Air Force including I think I was the first navigator to command a squadron. So I will leave with that and before staff college I got that and that was quite an interesting job. But there we are.
GC: And so after the war was — what were your feelings about Bomber Command and obviously —
JT: I think Bomber Command was very badly done by. Largely because it was a remarkable organisation. As I said there were twenty one nationalities in the Great Escape who were shot. And they, they carried on the war on for a long time. They were the only people who carried the war to Germany and it was very important that the Germans should feel that they were getting punished for what they were doing. Otherwise there would have been nothing at all. Bomber Command carried the war on its own shoulders really from the time of, from Dunkirk on until the invasion. Solely because otherwise the Germans would have been quite happy and not realised the war was on really. And they were made conscious of it by the bomber offensive. And at the end of the war one of the targets turned out to be Dresden which was not a target which Butch Harris wanted to attack at all.
GC: No.
JT: The Americans didn’t want to attack either but it was forced upon us by the Russians who in their advance wanted Dresden destroyed. And [pause] and so it was. And the orders came to Bomber Command from above really. And it was because it was not on their list of targets. And yet of course there was a great fuss about the destruction of Dresden and what was done which was done by politicians passing it down on behalf of the Russians who wanted it done. And it was the American and British Bomber Commands who were most very reluctant to it. It was done and it was, it gave, it put a bad name. I don’t know why particularly they pick on Dresden but it gave the bomber offensive a bad name. And Churchill, when he spoke after the war he thanked everybody down and including the Cub Scouts and left Bomber Command out. And we carried the war on our own shoulders for years. And yet he had no thanks for them. And yet during the time he’d been a neighbour of Harris and they’d been friends. And they were, you know he was very appreciative of what was done but he completely abandoned them after the war. I felt very sad. Very bad it was. They didn’t deserve that.
GC: Yeah. But things, things have changed now over the last sort of ten, fifteen, twenty years do you think?
JT: In which direction?
GC: In appreciation of what Bomber Command did. You know, by —
JT: I’m not conscious of it.
GC: Which is why it’s important now to have, you know, the Memorial. The Bomber Command Memorial in Lincoln.
JT: Yes. That of course was set up Bomber Command itself, not by — by friends. The Memorial wasn’t set up by the government at all. But why they should turn on it when it had carried the war on its own shoulders for three years, three or four years when nothing was happening at all to the Germans. And it was very important that something should be happening and something pretty bad and so it was. And it was, I think a serious let down.
[pause]
JT: But there you are. You get no thanks for something. But to end on sacrifice because although I went through and did an enormous number of operations the majority of people disappeared on their first tour of operations. Very few people survived their first tour. And then the second tour they became Pathfinders and Master Bombers and they had to face worse things and carried on for another tour. So the final people who finally achieved seventy operations and must have been a very small percentage indeed. Very small. One or two percent. But then of course after D-Day it was a free for all [laughs] Everybody was having fun. But things got confused rather because they were so busy. But I was very happy to carry on. But some people carried on much much, for much longer than I did. But it’s the group navigation officer who said I should stop. There was one character who, I must speak on him because he was, he’d be completely unknown but he was the man who did the most operations in Bomber Command. He did a hundred and forty seven. And these were proper ones. He was on Wellingtons first. And the rest of the time on Mosquitoes and but he was a very odd character. As they were [laughs] but mind you he would be. He unfortunately he finally died living in a flat in Cambridge. Alone. Blind. And deserted by everybody. And that was the end of the hero of a hundred and forty seven operations.
GC: That’s an incredible service. Like yours is. Yeah. Right.
JT: But the reason he did so many operations is another thing to do with his character. But I knew him quite well. But it was sad really because his, you’ve never heard his name or know anything about him but he died in obscurity.
GC: Yeah.
JT: And sad. Very sad. His name was Benson and I’m probably the only person left who knew him.
[pause]
GC: Ok. Well, thank you Mr Tipton. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you.
JT: Well, I haven’t been very good I’m afraid.
GC: It’s been an amazing interview. You know. It’s been a real honour to meet you.
JT: I don’t see why but [pause] The other thing that has always been on mind was that the, unfortunately this organisation is very much Lincolnshire and Yorkshire orientated. But nevertheless it worried me that because the head of the Pathfinder Force was an Australian called Don Bennett who was on a short service commission with the RAF and but he’d written a very first class book on navigation before. He left the Air Force and he was with British Overseas Airways for some years and came back during the war. He was given the job of, eventually of forming the Pathfinder Force. The head of 5 Group, I think it was 5 Group was Sir Ralph Cochrane who was a regular officer and a nobleman to boot and who felt that Bennett was an upstart which he was of course because he’d been, did a first, a short service in the Air Force and then went out to BOAC. What it was called in those days and then he came back in. Still, and, but Cochrane, who was the head of 5 Group was jealous of him, I think. And so he set up 5 Group as a separate command running his own operations and doing his own marking. Well, there was no need. Oboe marking would mark anything anywhere within fifty yards of an aiming point. Cochrane’s method of marking was to flood the area with light, with lots of light and then send someone down at low level to identify the target which had already been marked by Oboe by the way. He took precaution of that. And this was spectacular. You could see a 5 Group operation carried out from a hundred miles away. And we would fly home in perfect peace knowing that all the fighters in Germany would be accumulated by this mass of light. And some of the things, there was an example of I can’t remember the name, [unclear] I think but it was a target. Obviously a German Panzer training ground and it was about five minutes over the coast. Over the French coast. A Bomber Command normal, a normal operation would have had an Oboe marker on it. They’d have bombed it and turned and there would have been probably no losses at all. 5 Group, they took this on. They had an Oboe marker of course which they called a proximity marker. And in order to get, to get their method working well they failed completely. And they had squadrons of 5 Group milling about, getting lost to fighters, collisions and all sorts of things and were over the target for about an hour. And failing to, failing to, they got an Oboe marker stuck there which they were supposedly taking no notice of and yet trying to identify by means of a low level. With this system. They had somebody low level flying around, finding the target area and marking it again and they wouldn’t accept the Oboe marker at all. And they lost a number, a large number of aircraft. I don’t know how many but there was quite large number because they’d got squadrons milling about under no direction because the Master Bomber, whoever he was I don’t know what trouble he was having but they lost hundreds of air crew that night. Well, a normal operation we would have lost none at all. I think that is mad and somebody at 5 Group should have been made to pay for it because it was their only failure but it was awful. Having the aircraft all milling round awaiting for something which wasn’t going to happen anyway and they got a marker stuck anyway, you see. I think it was a crime. This was the only one. Just one example but it was a bad one. And somebody’s head should have rolled but unfortunately the head that rolled should have been Sir Ralph Cochrane because hundreds of people died unnecessarily and it was very very sad. Just one example. And the, also he employed the people who flew down on the target searching for it. He employed people like Cheshire and Guy Gibson. Guy Gibson was killed on it and he should have been retired years before. He only kept going on because he’d gone on using his name. He should have been rested permanently ages before. But I think fortunately Cheshire survived of course but the, the whole thing was a mess due to one man alone. I think that was Ralph Cochrane.
[pause]
GC: But then he accepted the Pathfinder Force set up afterwards then did he?
JT: No. He carried on to the end of the war. It only developed towards the end of the war but it was a damned silly system anyway. But [pause] but he wanted to set up his own Air Force in his own command separate from the Bomber Command which was quite wrong. And he should have been made to pay for it because lots of people were lost unnecessarily on his operations. So, that and bloody Dresden and Mr Churchill at the end of the war thanked everybody including the Boy Scouts but he didn’t Bomber Command at all. Deliberately ignored it. And ignored it because of Dresden which Bomber Command would do to it.
GC: No.
JT: But it was the Russians. The politicians. However, there we are. That’s life.
GC: Ok then, Mr Tipton thank you very much.
JT: That’s alright.
GC: I’ll stop this recording now shall I?
JT: Yeah.
GC: Yeah. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Tipton
Creator
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Gary Clarke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATiptonJ170610
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:14:59 audio recording
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John Tipton grew up in Tenby and studied law at University College London. He volunteered for the RAF and trained as a navigator. He was posted to 40 Squadron where he began operational flying before the squadron were posted to Malta. After his tour of operations he began instructing at an Operational Training Unit but was keen to return to operational flying and joined 109 Squadron Pathfinders. He completed another seventy operations with 109 bringing his tally of operations to one hundred and four. He would have continued with operations but was told he had done enough. He became an Oboe controller in Holland. He had a distinguished post war career including at SHAPE HQ where he was a head of air intelligence.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Malta
Netherlands
England--Cambridgeshire
France--Falaise
109 Squadron
40 Squadron
5 Group
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Wyton
superstition
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/694/22465/MBarrettR1863228-170515-09.2.pdf
5c2f4f2a508deba42d92d8dcc3b5e2df
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Barrett, Raymond
R Barrett
Description
An account of the resource
30 items. An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftsman Raymond Barrett (1924 -2017, 1863228 Royal Air Force) a memoir, diary, documents and photographs. He served as an engine mechanic in North Africa, Italy and India.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Raymond Barrett and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barrett, R
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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ROYAL AIR FORCE JOURNAL
Final Number
[Page Break]
Contents
Page
A MESSAGE FROM THE CHIEF OF THE AIR STAFF – 145
EDITORIAL – 146
THIS MONTH’S JOURNAL – 146
NEWS FROM AIR MINISTRY – 147
SLIPSTREAM – 151
THE “JOURNAL” CLOSES DOWN By Squadron Leader David Langdon – 152
OFFICERS’ NEW PAY CODE AT A GLANCE – 154
I WAS AN EVADER – 155
“SLIPSTREAM” A Royal Air Force Anthology – 159
WANT A JOB? By L.A.C. R. Williams – 160
SO LONG, JOE! By Squadron Leader R.B. Raymond – 162
RELEASE PROBE – 7 – 164
W.A.A.F SPORTS NEWS – 167
THE GOLDEN EAGLE By Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Ames D.F.C. and Bar – 168
A WAAF IN SOVIET RUSSIA By Section Officer J.E. Thomas – 171
PRIZE WINNERS – 173
REPORT FROM GERMANY By Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Lewis – 174
NAAFI NEWS – 176
OUR MESS By Flight Sergeant L.J. Evans – 177
THE HALIFAX – 179
TRADE LIST FOR REMUSTERING - page iii cover
The cover design and the drawings on pages 151, 160, 162, 163 and 176 are by Squadron Leader David Langdon. The drawing on pages 156 and 158 are by LAC H. Seabright and that on page 177 by LAC L. Abrahams. The photographs on pages 168, 170 and 179 are Air Ministry official photographs.
Although the [Italics]Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] closes down with the present number, contributions should still be submitted to The Editor, P.9, Air Ministry Adastral House, Kingsway, for publication in a new R.A.F magazine. Articles, and stories of from 1500-2000 words, and cartoons and drawings, all with a Service angle, are welcomed. The Prize Competition will be continued each month as usual.
NOT TO BE PUBLISHED
The information given in the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] is not to be communicated, either directly or indirectly, to the Press or to any person not holding an official position in His Majesty’s Service.
The circulation of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] is limited. Please do not put this copy in your pocket, but leave it for the use of other readers.
[Page Break]
[crest]
ROYAL AIR FORCE JOURNAL
MAY, 1946 VOLUME 4 NUMBER 5
A Message from the Chief of the Air Staff
As a regular reader of the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] since its inception in September, 1939, as the [Italics] Air Ministry Weekly Bulletin, [/italics], I am sorry to have to write this note for its closing number.
The [Italics] Journal [/Italics] has always be regarded as the Service’s own magazine, and the bulk of its contents were contributed by all ranks from all parts of the world. It was this communal effort that helped to give the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] its character and enhanced its reading value. It has done a good job.
It is planned to replace the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] with another R.A.F. magazine to be run on similar lines. I hope the Service will give the same support to this new magazine as they gave to the [Italics] Journal [/Italics], so that it may prove a worthy successor.
[Signature]
[Italics] Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Chief of the Air Staff [Italics]
145
[Page Break]
Editorial
Last Words
THIS final Editorial serves the dual purpose of taking leave of readers of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] and inviting them to become readers of the new Service publication which will take the place of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics]. The reason for the closing down of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] are not secret. It was primarily a war-time effort and those who were responsible for its style and character have left, or are in process of leaving the Service on release. Rather than carry on with an imitation of the original it has been thought advisable to change the name and format of the magazine, and adapt it more to suit the needs of the post-war Service.
Elsewhere in this issue we go into the farewell business pretty thoroughly, even to the extent of including a potted history of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] from its infancy up to this final issue. We have sub-titled this ‘powerful piece’ “Editorial Swansong” so that little should be added to it here, apart from reiterating thanks to our many contributors, past and present, who helped to keep the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] going by supplying a steady stream of contributions.
The aim of the new magazine will be the same as that of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics]. It will continue to be run by the Service for the Service and will remain the Service’s own magazine, giving news and information about what is happening in the Service and letting you know what the other man is doing. Hence the responsibility for its success will be enlarge measure continue to remain a collective one. Certain features which ran regularly in the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] will be carried over to the new magazine as having proved their interest value. But articles, stories, cartoons, serious drawings and photographs, or with a Service angle, will be more than ever in demand from contributors, especially as so many of our regular contributors and artists are being released from the Service.
Suggestions of a constructive sort will also be welcome, as the launching of a new magazine is an opportune time to incorporate new ideas.
The success of the new magazine will depend on the continuance of the excellent reader-contributor relationship which was fostered during the lifetime of the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] and help to maintain its standard to the end.
This Month's Journal
OUR EDITORIAL and NEWS FROM AIR MINISTRY features, familiar to readers over a period of several years, will be carried over into the new Service magazine. [symbol] THE “JOURNAL “CLOSES DOWN is an article by the retiring Editor. Its title, and its sub-title “Editorial Swansong” aptly describe its content. [Symbol] SLIPSTREAM appears in this issue for the last time and is written all in one piece for that reason. It is hoped to replace SLIPSTEAM with a page of humour which will be contributed by readers. Short paragraphs describing humorous incidents in Service life and Service jokes which are neither corny nor risqué are welcomed. So, too, are comic drawings with a R.A.F angle. [Symbol] I WAS AN EVADER is a thrilling story of an R.A.F officer who evaded capture by the Germans after baling out over the Ruhr. Air Vice-Marshal Sir B.E. Embry, Chairman of the R.A.F. Escaping Society, introduces it with a forward [symbol] LAC R. Williams gives an account in WANT A JOB? of how to go about getting a job as a teacher, even if you have had little previous preparation for this sort of career. [symbol] In SO LONG JOE! a previous Editor of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics], Squadron Leader R.B. Raymond, writes a farewell tribute to our strip cartoon character. Joe has tried to entertain readers each month for the past three years in the very limited confine of a four-by-two space at the foot of a page. There is no Joe strip cartoon this month for, but
146
[Page Break]
ROYAL AIR FORCE JOURNAL
he will be found rather prolifically elsewhere, on our cover, for example, and on pages 160, 162, 163 and 176 [Symbol] Our PARLIMENTARYT COMMENTARTY is another regular feature which will be carried over to the new magazine with the aim of keeping readers informed of questions and answers in Parliament on Service matters. [Symbol] In THE GOLDEN EAGLE Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Ames D.F.C and Bar, describes the work of the Pathfinder Force in war and the Pathfinders’ Club in peace. [symbol] An interesting account of Russian servicewomen is given in A WAAF IN SOVIET RUSSIA by Section Officer J.E Thomas, who was selected as a WAAF delegate on the British Youth Delegation which recently toured the Soviet. [symbol] Flight Sergeant L.J. Evans writes nostalgically from Civvy Street of OUR MESS and leaves one wandering whether there is still a lot of truth in the saying that absence makes the heart grow fonder – of places as well as persons. [Symbol] This month our roving reporter Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Lewis went back to Germany after an absence of six months and records his impressions in REPORT FROM GERMANY. [symbol] Our British Aircraft series features the famous HALIFAX. This series, too, will be continued in the new magazine.
NEWS FROM AIR MINISTRY
Redundant Aircrew
THE position of redundant air crew who wish to undertake further service as tradesmen in the R.A.F. is clarified in A.M.O. A.240/46. This states the aircrew with a basic trade who were N.C.O.s or L.A.C.s before their service as aircrew will assume in their trade the temporary rank or classification they would have attained under normal promotion procedure, while those who were A.C.2s or A.C.1s will be trade-tested immediately on remastering to their trade. If they reach L.A.C. standard, the date of reaching that classification will be taken as the date on which they entered aircrew training, and their temporary rank or classification will be determined accordingly.
Those who do not reach L.A.C. standard will be given every facility to do so within six months, and if successful will be granted a similar antedate of seniority and the appropriate rank.
Aircrew who have no basic trade will, after trade training be given the opportunity to reach L.A.C standard within six months, or within six months of acceptance for enlistment under A.M.O. A.605/44 whichever is later; and will also be granted a similar antedate of seniority and the appropriate rank.
The Order also states that these airmen are eligible for the grant of substantive rank in their ground trade as specified in Newpayforms 4 and 5, and that they will retain the special conditions of service at present enjoyed by redundant aircrew, so long as they fulfil the terms on which they are granted and so long as these conditions remain in operation.
Release Medicals: A Warning
CASES have come to light of personal withholding from Medical Officers details of their medical history when the time comes for them to attend for their release medical examination.
This may be due to an understandable desire to avoid possible delay in being released, or an unwillingness to be told that they are suffering from some complaint, and should and are in need of treatment.
Should you fall ill while on release leave, and have to be admitted to hospital, your leave cannot be extended because of this.
It is therefore in your own interest to disclose to the examining M.O. details regarding your health, and to receive any treatment which may be necessary at the earliest opportunity.
It should not be taken for granted that a medical examination will automatically disclose a malady; M.O.s rely to a great extent upon what you are able to tell them in their assessment of the condition of your health.
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ROYAL AIR FORCE JOURNAL
The R.A.F Escaping Society
THE R.A.F, Escaping Society (mentioned in the foreward to the story “I Was An Evader” on page 155) is in process of formation at the present time.
The aim of the Society is to foster the many friendships formed between successful escapers and evaders from former German-occupied territories, and the gallant people of those countries, who, often grave personal risk, helped them to return to this country.
The idea for such as Society was first proposed by the former Chief of the Air Staff, Marshall of the R.A.F Lord Portal of Hungerford, G.B.E., O.M., D.S.O., M.C., who is President of the Society. The Chairman is Air Vice-Marshal Sir Basil E. Embry, K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., D.F.C., A.F.C., himself a successful escaper.
Membership is open to all members and ex-members of the R.A.F., Dominions Air Forces and Allied Air Forces who served within their framework of the R.A.F. but for the time being it is limited to those who got away from Western Europe. Later on it is hoped to extend membership to include those who returned from Denmark, Norway, and Italy.
Although all known escapers and evaders from Western Europe have been circularized by the Society, there may be some who have not received a communication. All those who are interested in membership should write to the Secretary, R.A.F.E.S., c/o D.P.S., Air Ministry, Room 475, Adastral House, Kingsway, London, W.C.2.
The amount of the annual subscription is left to the discretion of each individual, but the equivalent to one day's pay is suggested on a basis.
A R.A.F Memorial Album
A FEW months ago the [italics] Journal [/italics] received a letter from France, from a young French girl, an admirer of the R.A.F. She explained how all during the German occupation and afterwards she had gathered cuttings about the R.A.F. from the newspapers, listened to stories of the exploits of our Squadrons on the B.B.C., and set it all down in an album.
We were able to complete the album for this French girl by sending her photographs of her special heroes: F/O “Cobber” Kain, G/Capt. Bader, W/Cdr. Guy Gibson, W/Cdr. “Paddy” Finucane, and others.
A few days ago the album arrived for us to look at. The paper is not of fine quality, for there was none in France during the occupation; what is set down in the album is written by hand and because it was begun in 1939 the ink is beginning to fade.
The great thing is that this record of R.A.F. fighter exploits, bomber operations, and evasions after parachute landings in France, will not fade with the ink. In the mind of this French girl, it will remain. Many millions of people in Europe hold in high esteem the work of the R.A.F. If we wanted any further proof of it, this album gives it.
R.A.F. Unit Garden Competition
THE R.A.F. Unit Annual Garden Competition is being repeated this year with a special sense of urgency. The Unit making the best effort to be self-sufficient in vegetable produce throughout the year will be awarded the annual trophy.
Air Ministry horticultural experts will make a selection of the best gardens, and the final judging will be carried out during the first three weeks of August by officials of the Ministry of Agriculture.
Technical efficiency, food production plans and the amount of effort made by Station personnel are some of the factors which points will be awarded in this Competition. Further details about it may be found in A.M.O. N.220/46.
Storage of Mess Trophies
RESPONSIBILLITY for storage and safe custody of mess plate, trophies, picture, etc., belonging to messes, institutes, squadrons and other units, which may close down or be transferred overseas has been transferred from No. 220 Maintenance Unit to No. 14 Maintenance Unit, states A.M.O. A.102/46.
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WAAF for Fire Force
W.A.A.F. personnel whose release groups have appeared in an advanced promulgation are invited to apply for vacancies which exist in the administrative and operational branches of the National Fire Service.
Administrative vacancies are for uniformed or civilian personnel as shorthand typists, accountants, bookkeepers, storekeepers and clerks. A limited number of senior appointments will be open to women qualified to take charge of administrative sections.
In the operational branch uniformed personnel are required as switchboard operators, wireless operators and telephonists.
Uniform for those required to wear it (it need be worn only when on duty) is issued free. Applicants are offered employment for a year, with the prospect of an extension of service.
Rates of pay vary from a minimum of 62s 6d per week for firewomen to £450 p.a. in the officer class. (Further details in A.M.O. A.245/46).
University Exhibitions
THE Grocers’ Company is re-establishing the award of its Exhibition for the Universities at Oxford and Cambridge, and extends an invitation to all Service Personnel who intend resuming their University studies upon their release to apply for the Grants offered.
The Exhibitions are for £100 per annum and are to aid those with inadequate private means who are considered suitable for University education.
Candidates who hold Exhibitions or scholarships from the State, Local Educational Authorities or other City Companies are not eligible for the Grocers’ Company’s Grants.
Full details of the scheme are and application forms are obtained from the Clerk to the Grocers’ Company, Grocers’ Hall, Princes Street, London, E.C.2.
Aircraft Apprentices’ Exam.
THE qualifying examination for the September, 1946, entry of aircraft apprentices will be held at local centres in the U.K. and Northern Ireland on June 25th, 1946. Sons of personnel who are serving, or who have served in the R.A.F. (including the R.A.F.O.) and the W.A.A.F. are permitted to sit for the examination as “Service” candidates and will be required to reach qualifying standard only.
Personnel still serving who wish to enter their sons for the qualifying examination should apply for a Service candidature through their C.O.s. In addition a nomination is required. The scheme is explained fully in Air Ministry pamphlet 15, and A.M.O. N.265/46 provides information relating to this particular entry.
Books and Articles by Serving Personnel
WRITERS of books, articles, broadcast scripts, essays and lectures on the [italics] Service [/italics] topics should note that in future these must be submitted for approval, to an Air Ministry Branch known as S.D.5, before being offered for publication. The Branch previously responsible for giving approval for matter intended for publication was P.R.4, and personnel will avoid considerable delay by making a careful note of this change.
It should also be noted that only material dealing with Service matters need be submitted for official approval. MSS, should [italics]not [/italics] be submitted direct by the author, but through the “usual channels” – i.e through your C.O. They must be submitted in duplicate.
The postal address of S.D.5 is Air Ministry, 29, Queen Anne’s Gate, London, S.W.1.
Navigation Refresher Course
A REFRESHER course has been instituted at the Empire Air Navigation School for those offices entitled to the specialist symbol “N” who may not have been employed on navigation duties for several years and are now unfamiliar with modern technique and equipment. In future any officer not employed on navigation duties for five years or more who does not take this refresher course will forfeit his right to the symbol “N.”
Application for the course should be made direct to Air Ministry (D.D.T. Nav.)
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Travel to Eire
PERSONNEL proceeding on leave to Eire are warned in A.M.O. A.246/46 that permission to embark will be refused if they arrive in Holyhead wearing uniform. It should also be noted that there is only one sailing daily (Sundays excepted) from Holyhead, and all travellers to Eire should arrange their departure from units to enable them to connect with the Irish mail train which leaves Euston at 08.15 hours.
There is no sleeping accommodation available at Holyhead for those who arrive too late to catch the boat, which sails at 15.30 hours.
Hostels and Clubs in London
THE Sussex Square Club and Hotel, 8 Sussex Square, London, W.2 has been opened for male other ranks. There is sleeping accommodation for 500, and the cost of bed, bath and breakfast is 1s. 9d.
The Y.M.C.A has opened a new hostel for women officers at David Mews, Portman Mansions, London, W.1. The charge for bed and breakfast is 6s.
The following hostels have been closed: Marylebone Service Club, 191, Marylebone Road, London, W.1; The Gordon Services Club, 126, Vauxhall Bridge Road, London, S.W.1; Victoria League Club, Hopkinson House, 88, Vauxhall Bridge Road, London, S.W.1, and the Victoria League Dominion Officers Club, 4 & 5, Bramham Gardens, London, S.W.5.
Civil Aviation Vacancies
THERE are vacancies in Civil Aviation ford D/F Radio Operators (male) and women Teleprinter Operators who are about to be released.
Applicants from the R.A.F. should have had experience in D/F and maintenance work, and preferably possess the Postmaster-General’s Marine or Civil Aviation Radio Operator’s certificate. They should not be over 40, and must be willing to serve at any civil airport in the United Kingdom.
Qualified Women Teleprinter Operators are wanted at Northolt, Heathrow, Prestwick, and other civil airports, but unqualified applicants will also be considered. Any members of the W.A.A.F. about to be released and who are interested in this type of work are recommended to read A.M.O. A.204/46 which gives details of pay etc.
Applications for both these jobs should be made in writing to the Ministry of Civil Aviation (Establishments Division), 10, Fleet Street, London, E.C.4.
85 Squadron Club
A CLUB has been formed with the object of keeping alive the spirit of 85 squadron and renewing friendships made during the war.
Membership is open to all officers who have served or have had close association with the Squadron, and to N.C.O. air crew.
It is intended to compile a register for circulation and to hold frequent reunions and an annual dinner.
Applicants for membership should include dates of service with the Squadron, names of applicant’s pilots or navigator, and permanent address. They should be sent to the Secretary, H.M. Bradshaw-Jones, Esq., 33, Bedford Street, London, W.C.2.
11 Group Re-union
ARRANGEMENTS are being made to form an association of all offices who have served on the Headquarters Staff of Number 11 (Fighter) Group. It is intended to hold a dinner at an early date, and all offices interested should communicate with F/Lt. P. Houston, 113, George Borrow Road, Norwich.
254 Squadron Re-union
IT is proposed to hold a re-union dinner for former members of No. 254 Squadron, and all who wish to attend should communicate with Flight Lieutenant A.C. Beevor, 24, Crows Road, Epping, Essex.
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FINAL EDITION
SLIPSTREAM
[Italics]Call us Mister, Sister [/Italics]
THIS is our forty-second and last [Italics] Slipstream. [/Italics] We say “we” and we say “our,” but in reality the use of the plural was and is an editorial affection. Hence any blame attaching to the so-called humorous paragraphs printed for three-and-a-half years on this page attaches to the present writer, and not to a group of writers.
We first brought the idea of [Italics] Slipstream [/Italics] with the then Editor in November, 1942. We gave it a big build-up. We blue-printed it as a [Italics] pot -pourri [/Italics] of comment and opinion on Service life and manners, with a thin but bright thread of humour running through it, like a glistening seam in a coalmine. Mixing our metaphors, we also said it was to be a collection of random thoughts and ideas blown on the wind, from which mental picture we derived to the name [Italics] Slipstream [/Italics].
The then Editor hummed and hawed and eventually said okay but how are you going to fill a page, and not only one page but one page every month. We said we thought somehow we could, and we felt a cold clammy clutch at our hearts as we said so, because even then we had a vague idea what such a commitment would entail.
We were country-bumpkins in those days. Newly-arrived from octane-scented atmosphere of Station life and full of inspiration, we got out our first [Italics] Slipstream [/Italics] in the next to no time. Ideas crowded in one upon the other, and we had only to close one eye to relive the Station life we had just abandoned for the cloistered precincts of Air Ministry. As the months flew by we found we had to pack our grips occasionally and go out into the blue to see what was cooking, and breathe again the free air of the airfield and the mess.
From the beginning we made it a practice never to solicit ideas from readers and this decision, made in the first flesh of confidence, we occasionally regretted afterwards, because our readers took the hint and never bothered to send in any ideas. Soon the ninety-nine per cent, inspiration and the one per cent, perspiration changed in values and we found ourselves more perspiring than inspired. But we plodded gamely on, encouraged by the other people here on the staff saying they wondered how we did it month after month. We ourselves wondered about this probably more than anyone else, heaving a sigh of relief when we sent one month’s [Italics] Slipstream [/Italics] off to the printers and wondering how on earth we were going to write the next.
Well now we've had all that, and we're not sure – unpredictable and perverse creatures that we are – we're not sure whether we're happy or not. The burden that we feel lifted from our minds has been replaced with a dead weight of regret for the passing of [Italics] Slipstream [/Italics] and of the mental exercise which sharpened our wits. But one thing we are sure about – we’re going to grab our blue-grey felt hat and spend our fifty-six days in a deserted seaside village, lying on the beach and tossing pebbles aimlessly into the sea. D.L.
[Cartoon]
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EDITORIAL SWANSONG
The “Journal Closes Down”
By SQUADRON LEADER DAVID LANGDON
THIS is the last issue of the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] in its present form. Judging by the many letters we have received from readers during the five-and-a-half years of publication in its various formats, we gather that the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] was a good thing. From there it is but a short step to saying that all good things come to an end some time, and in the case of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] that time is now.
It may be said that the growth of a magazine from its modest beginnings is often of little more than mild interest to those we have had no closer association with it than as readers. But I feel that the history of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] is worth recording in this final issue, even if only for the reason that if we do not record it, no one else will. Also, this final issue provides an opportunity of revealing the personalities and the purpose behind what is being for so long the incognito organization which has been responsible for the publication of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics].
The Old “Bulletin”
The [Italics] Journal [/Italics] traces its origin from an [Italics] Air Ministry Weekly Bulletin [/Italics] which was produced for the Director of Intelligence at Air Ministry by Squadron Leader Hector Bolitho, the biographer and novelist. The [Italics] Bulletin [/Italics] printed its first number in September, 1939. It was an unpretentious affair of a few mimeographed sheets, and its purpose was to provide information about the Service and the war generally which was not available to the Service reader in the daily press.
The [Italics] Bulletin [/Italics] was a one-man job, and it came out every week for fifteen months. At the end of this period it was felt that in spite of its limitations it warranted a better type of publication, especially as the information it disseminated was useful and well-presented. So the pocket-sized, blue covered, letterpress [Italics] Royal Air Force Weekly Bulletin [/Italics] made its appearance, and the responsibility for its publication was transferred from the Director of Intelligence to the Director of Personal Services.
Only about 3,500 copies would distributed throughout the Service, but in spite of this small circulation the [Italics] Bulletin [/Italics] slowly built up a sum of good will among contributors for which we were grateful in later years. The Editor managed to secure contributions, without fee, from a number of officers and airmen, and these were judged to be of such excellent standard that in November, 1941, the Editor, was again encouraged to extend the scope of his publication still further.
The Old “Journal”
A new format double the size of the [Italics] Bulletin [/Italics] was designed, more photographs and line blocks were introduced, and the title change to the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics]. It had a plain, grey cover and the title-lettering was specially hand-designed, this design remaining unaltered until this final issue. The [Italics] Journal [/Italics] went to press every fortnight instead of weekly, and the number of copies was increased to 7,000.
Although this number was inadequate as the Service was expanding rapidly week by week, more copies did filter into Stations, and contributions flowed in steadily to the editor. It was not long before a number of professional writers began to send articles to the [italics] Journal [/italics] without asking a fee. Such writers as George Bernard Shaw, H. E. Bates, J.B. Priestly, Terrence Rattigan, Frank Tilsley, John Pudney, Nigel Tangye, and “James Hadley Chase” (S/Ldr. R.B Raymond who was to become Assistant Editor and subsequently Editor), all at one time or other were willing contributors. But the bulk of the material published came from hitherto unknown writers, Service men and women, some writing for publication for the first time, and it was with the regular support of these contributors that the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] managed to keep up its standard.
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The New “Journal”
It became obvious as issue after issue of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] appeared that it was fast becoming an important medium for putting over Service news and information in an interesting way. As well as recording the work of all trades and branches and thus keeping the tradesman informed of what other man was doing, it constituted an important link between Air Ministry and Commands, Groups and Units.
The stage was set to aim at a still wider circulation, but before this could be done it was thought advisable to sound Service opinion in order to see how far the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] could be still further improved and popularized. A survey was therefore made in 1942, and besides confirming the obvious recommendation that the printing figure of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] should be increased, there was a general demand for it to be presented in a much lighter form. The feeling was that it should look and read more like a popular magazine then the rather erudite [Italics] Journal [/Italics] of that day.
It was obvious that the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] would have to change its make-up. The existing Editor having performed his tour of duty and taken up other duties in the Service, the Assistant Editor, Squadron Leader R.B. Raymond, became Editor. The good will handed over to the new Editor with editorial chair made an excellent basis on which to build a more popular magazine. It was at this time that I was invited to join the staff as Assistant Editor, having been an occasional contributor of drawings and articles since the old [Italics] Bulletin [/Italics] days.
With the aid of a more generous grant from the Treasury, we set about redesigning the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] to bring it into line with the best of the commercial magazines, and to be the first in the field with a popular magazine written by the Service for the Service.
The circulation of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] rose in time to 50,000. This was not, however, a world-wide circulation. India had its own “Journal of the Air Forces” to which we sent the bulk of our contents for local reproduction. The Middle East “Air Force News” also carried many of the [Italics] Journal’s [/Italics] features articles, and we instituted a weekly news and feature service for this paper and for other Service papers which were being published successfully in such places as the Bahamas, the Azores, Germany and Italy.
The People behind it
Our establishment, apart from two civilians, Miss D. Berry and Miss P. Bannister, was limited to an Editor and an Assistant Editor, and the third member joined us in April,1945. He was Flight Lieutenant George Simpson, ex-editor of “Air Force News,” and he became the London “end” of overseas R.A.F. newspapers. In October,1945, Squadron Leader Raymond left the Service on release and I took over editorship. Simpson became Assistant Editor in my place, and our third recruit was Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Lewis, a one time occasional contributor, who became our staff reporter.
Producing the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] has been every respect a happy and unique venture in Service journalism; unique because we were never part of the Public Relations organization (although we are indebted for the photographs and specialized articles with which the P.R. people supplied us), but operated under the Air Member for Personnel, through his Director General and the Director of Personal Services, who was really our Editor-in-Chief. To these Officers we looked for advice and guidance and they were always ready with both. Here, too, we must mention our gratitude to Group Captain F.D. Terdrey, O.B.E. Although he had no official connection with our work, he took on voluntary the task of correcting our proofs each month, and his good advice and encouragement were never lacking.
The success of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] also depended on the humdrum but essential office work which was efficiently performed by our two civilian employees, and on the printers and blockmakers who made such a good job of our production. But without the support of our contributors who ranged from Marshal of the Royal Air Force to AC2 and ACW2, and who provided the bulk of the contents of the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] we could never have turned out more than a very meagre magazine. I hope
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that when I leave the chair and the Service next month, our readers and contributors will continue to give the same unstinting support to whatever new publication takes the place of the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics].
[boxed] Officers’ New Pay Code at a Glance
Daily Pay
Pilot Officer: 16/- (G.D.). 13/- (other branches).
Flying Officer: 18/- (G.D.). 15/- (other branches). After 2 years: 20/- (G.D.), 17/- (other branches). After 3 years: 19/- (tech., equip., sec.).
Flight Lieutenant: 23/-. After 2 years: 25/-, After 4 years: 27/-. After 6 years: 29/-.
Squadron Leader: 35/-. After 2 years: 37/-. After 4 years: 39/- After 6 years: 41/-
Wing Commander: 47/6. After 2 years: 50/-. After 4 years: 52/6. After 6 years: 65/-. After 8 years: 57/6.
Group Captain: 65/-. After 2 years: 68/-. After 4 years: 71/-. After 6 years: 74/-.
Air Commodore: 77/-.
Air Vice-Marshal: 110/-.
Air Marshal: 135/-.
Air Chief Marshal: 160/-.
Marshal of the Royal Air Force: 180/-.
Marriage Allowances
Squadron Leader and below – 12/6 a day.
Wing Commander and Group Captain – 15/- a day.
Air Commodore – 17/6 a day.
Air Vice-Marshal and above – 20/- a day.
“War Excess,” Officers and Airmen
“War Excess” is the name given to the difference in pay between the old rate of pay and war service increments and the new rate now coming into force.
Under the original arrangements “War Excess” was to have been withdrawn by half-yearly instalments from January 1st, 1947. Now it is announced that “War Excess” will continue indefinitely as an addition to the new rate of pay for officers and airmen until it is overtaken by increases of pay on promotion or remustering, etc. If, however, an officer or airmen reverts from his temporary or acting rank to a lower substantive rank, he will still get the “War Excess” due to him in the higher rank he held.
For example, if a Group 1 Flight Sergeant of six years’ service now gets pay of 12/6 a day, badge pay of 3d. a day, and war service increment of 3/- a day, making 15/9 in all, under the new code he gets 14/6 a day plus 6d. a day badge pay, making 15/- a day. To balance up the two rates his “War Excess” is therefore 9d. a day. Suppose he reverts back to Sergeant, his new rate of pay will be 12/- and badge pay of 6d. plus the 9d a day “War Excess” of his old rank, making 13/3 a day in all. If he is again promoted to FLt./ Sgt., the “War Excess” 9d. a day would go. If, however, instead of reverting to Sergeant, he retains his Flight Sergeant’s rank he will keep the “War Excess” until it is offset by increase of pay on promotion, etc. [/boxed]
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Forwarded by Air Vice-Marshal Sir B.E. Embry,
K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., D.F.C., A.F.C.,
Chairman of the R.A.F Escaping Society
[italics] The following is a grand story written by an evader who remains anonymous. It shows what can be done with a little bluff, determination and common-sense. It also reveals the truly courageous and patriotic part played by the underground movements of Europe in assisting members of the Royal Air Force and United States Air Forces to make their way to freedom. The evader in this story demonstrated fine powers of endurance and an unwavering sense of duty in fighting his way through in spite of many difficulties and hardships, but I think he would be the first to admit that but the help he received from the many brave civilians, his task would have been doubly difficult, if not impossible.
I am happy to think that the R.A.F. Escaping Society will be a means of helping to renew and cement many of these friendships made during the war. [/italics]
I Was an Evader
I WAS a member of the crew of a Halifax which was bombed at target in the Ruhr. We had set course for Base, but one engine was on fire and another had cut and could not be restarted. A few minutes later I heard “Bale out!” shouted over the intercom. I made my way to the forward escape hatch and baled out at about 3,000 feet.
I landed in a small field, and although I was somewhat dazed, I hid my parachute, Mae West and flying boots in a haystack. I put a pair of R.A.F. issues shoes which I had grabbed just before I baled out. I then set off for a corner of the field, but my movements started some dogs barking, and I decided to wait until dawn. I went into a small copse, where I went to sleep.
I awoke shortly after daybreak and ate some of the food tablets which I had with me. I then started to walk southwest through the copse, eating loganberries as I went. It began to rain heavily and I sheltered in a deserted hut, where I stayed for the remainder of the day. At dusk I assumed walking, having filled my water-bottle from puddles I found in cart tracks. I walked through a village until I came to a fork in the road, where there was a signpost with the name Asbach on it. I realized now that I was in Germany and followed the road running south-west.
I passed two small villages and then reached a wood, where I hid and slept until daybreak. When I awoke I cut off the shoulder straps of my battledress blouse. I wore my blue sweater over my uniform. I had already acquired an old cap from a scarecrow.
I then left my hiding place and crossed a main road, continuing through some woods to the other side. Eventually I came to a signpost with the word [Italics] Koblenz [/Italics] written on it. I was able to form some idea of my position and I took shelter for the night in a barley stook. At dawn the following morning I resumed walking along the road and I found some raspberries and birds’ eggs, which I ate.
I made my way to the top of a hill, from where I saw a large river, which I knew to be the Rhine. I think I was somewhere between Honnef and Neuwied.
Later in the day a German soldier asked me for a light. I am under the impression that you asked me in English, but I cannot be certain of this. I replied “Nein, Nein,” and continued walking. Much to my relief he took no further notice of me. As soon as he was out of sight I lay in the bed of nettles, where I remained until dark.
I then resumed walking along the footpath and passed through several small towns during the night. There were no incidents, and when it grew light I hid in some bushes. Later that morning I went into a field and stole some potatoes. As it was misty I lit
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a fire and cooked them. When I had eaten this meal I decided that it would be better policy to walk by day and rest by night, as I was getting little sleep while hiding during the day.
Evasive Tactics
Next morning I reached the outskirts of Neuwied. I lay down for a while in a small park and was seen by two policemen, who ignored me.
After I had rested, I walked through Neuwied and eventually arrived at a bridge over the river which was being used by pedestrians. A German officer went up the steps and I followed him. When he got to the top of the steps he turned right. I was about to follow him when I noticed that he was approaching a sentry. I immediately turned left and found myself in a small park on the same side of the river. After resting there for a short time I decided to risk attempting to walk past the sentry, as I observed that civilians were doing so.
Beside the sentry there was a small booth, where pedestrians crossing the bridge had to pay a toll. I passed the booth and the sentry without stopped and crossed the bridge. When I saw that I was approaching another sentry on the bridge I crossed to the other side of the footway and passed him. I noticed that if anyone loitered on the bridge this sentry moved them on. At the other end of the bridge I had to pass a third sentry, but he took no more notice of me than the others had done.
Now that I had crossed the river, I turned right to get on to the main road which led to Miesenheim. A party of civilian cyclists, armed with rifles, passed me going in the same direction. Two of them turned round and stared at me, but did not stop. That night I slept in a hollow near a stream.
On the following day, I saw a bicycle leaning against a tree. After ensuring that I was unobserved, I made off with it. I cycled south-west, keeping to the main roads, and hoping that I would eventually reach France.
I continued in this fashion until the evening of the following day, when I
[picture]
[Italics] “I had to pass another sentry . . .”[/Italics]
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reached the outskirts of Prum. I was feeling very weak by this time, but was able to steal milk from some milk cans lying by the roadside. I cycled through Prum and on reaching the south-western outskirts, hid my bicycle under a hedge and sheltered in the loft of a cowshed. That night I drank half of the tin of orange juice which I had with me when I baled out.
On the following morning I finished the orange juice and set off once more. I ate anything in the way of fruit I could find by the wayside. After cycling for about 17 kilometres the road forked. I took the road to the north because I realized that I was too weak to reach France, and Belgium was nearer. I think I reached Lunebach and then turned in the direction of St. Vith.
A short while later I rode straight through the Siegfried Line with dug-outs and then a line of anti-tank traps strung across the countryside. The area was completely deserted and I was never challenged.
I cycled through St. Vith, and then went on to Malmedy, swinging left for Trois Ponts. As I was riding along I saw a notice by the side of the road the word [Italics] Wehrmacht [/Italics] on it. I realized that this meant that the road was for the use of the German Army only. I doubled back and managed to strike a road running parallel to the one I had just left.
At the Frontier
Before I reached Stavelot I came to a barrier slung across the road near a hamlet. An armed guard and a police dog were at the barrier. I knew if I got off my bicycle I would be challenged, so I mounted the pavement a road straight on. A short distance along the road I came to another barrier and I adopted the same procedure with equal success. Presumably this was the German-Belgium frontier.
I arrived at Stavelot that afternoon. By this time I felt very weak and was starving. I decided to approach some likely person and ask for assistance. I went through the town until I came to some isolated houses on the outskirts. I saw an old man at one of the cottages, and seizing an opportunity when there was no one about, I went round to the back door to speak to him. I asked if he were a Belgian and he said he was. I then declared myself to him, showing him my identity disk and my flying badge. He kept me outside the cottage for a while, but when the road was clear he whisked me inside, where I met his wife.
At first they were very suspicious, but they gave me some food. Presently the man left the house and returned with a younger man who questioned me very closely in French, which I did not understand very well. Later that evening the young man's wife arrived and they took me to their own home, where I was fed and provided with a bed.
On the following day a woman who spoke perfect English came to see me. She questioned me closely, asking me my Squadron number, Station, route, etc. I refused to answer some of these questions, but she seemed to be satisfied and took from me one of my photographs. Later that day I was supplied with an identity card and civilian clothes.
Next day I was taken to the railway station by two men and given a ticket to Spa. The two men accompanied me about half way when they were relieved by another man. On arrival at Spa I followed this man to a house, where I was given more civilian clothing. I remained there for three days.
On the third day the man of the house took me to a flat in Brussels, where I met several members of his organization. They took me to a house where they had a large amount of wireless equipment.
Two days later my former guide came for me and escorted me to an apartment, where he introduced me to a man and woman. They then took me to Liege, where I remained for nearly three weeks. During this period the Gestapo arrested a member of the organisation, and this was the reason for the delay in getting me away.
Eventually a woman arrived at the house and took me to meet the man who had escorted me to Liege. He in turn took me to the headquarters of an organization, where I met two members of the U.S.A.A.C., also evaders.
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[picture]
[Italics] “She questioned me closely” [/Italics]
Subsequently a woman guide took one of the Americans and myself to Hux, where we stayed at a house for seven weeks, after which a man escorted us back to Brussels, where we were handed over to yet another man who took us to Ghent, where we spent the night.
Into France
The next day we travelled to a frontier town, probably Mouscron, where we walked through the barrier over the frontier into France without being questioned. We then went on to Tourcoing, where we were taken to a house. We stayed there for about a week, and were supplied with new identity cards. By this time, I was in high spirits and felt that I would be back in “Blighty” before long.
An attractive-looking girl then came to the house and escorted us to Paris. On arrival she took us to her own home and then to meet a man. The American and I were then taken to different houses.
[symbol] On the following day the girl arrived and escorted the American and myself to Quimper. There we joined a party of thirty evaders.
It was planned that we should be evacuated by boat, but this miscarried. This news depressed us, and there was a lot of binding. We were taken back to Paris about five days later and we got into training for our proposed crossing of the Pyrenees, we were very enthusiastic about this.
During the next four weeks I changed my address several times. At times I was impatient and suffered from a feeling of frustration, but I consoled myself with the fact that I was still a free man, and efforts were being made to get me away.
But eventually I joined a party of Americans, and, accompanied by two guides, we set off for Toulouse by train. Here we changed trains and went on to Pau, where we stayed for two nights. We then travelled by bus to a small town at the foot of the Pyrenees. We covered the next stage of our journey, a distance of about 25 kilometres, by taxi, then walked to a farm where we stayed overnight. We now felt that at last we were on our way.
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The following day we were joined by our guides for the mountain journey, and we walked for some distance to a farm, where we joined forces with a party of refugees.
Across the Pyrenees
We set off and crossed the French-Spanish frontier several hours later. The guides then left us after giving us directions to the nearest village. We reached the main Uztarroz-Isaba road, where we were picked up by the Spanish police. Our delight at being in a neutral country and beyond the possibility of capture by the Germans can be imagined.
We were taken to the police station at Uztarroz, where we were searched. Our knives were taken from us. We gave our Service numbers, name and stated the Services to which we belonged, but offered no further information and were not pressed.
I was then taken to various towns in Spain and eventually reached Gibraltar exactly eight months after I had baled out over Germany. I arrived back in England a few days later.
I feel that I must pay tribute to the many gallant Belgian and French men and women who risked their lives, and those of their families, in order to enable me and so many others to return to England to continue the fight against oppression and tyranny. No words of mine are adequate to describe their indomitable courage, resourcefulness and kindness. Many of these brave people of the Occupied Countries died, or were cast into foul concentration camps, because they had been detected helping Allied airmen to evade capture after they had baled out.
[boxed] “Slipstream”
A Royal Airforce Anthology
The best articles and stories which have appeared in the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal [/Italics] during the past four years are being complied in a book form, and entitled [Italics] Slipstream. [/Italics]
The publishers are Eyre and Spottiswoode, who hope to bring the book out as an autumn, 1946, publication, the price to be about 10s. 6d. The book will comprise 260 paged and 9 art plates. Proceeds from the sale of the book will go to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund.
As the edition will be a limited one, it is essential to place an order with your bookseller immediately to avoid disappointment.
As a memento of Service life or as a gift to a friend or relative in the Service, [Italics] Slipstream [/Italics] will be much appreciated.
The work of the following contributors appears in the book:-
[italics] W/Cdr E.W. Anderson, O.B.E., D.F.C.
F/Lt. J. Auld.
S/Ldr. S.F. Barnes.
S/Ldr. H.E. Bates.
Corpl. James Bayes.
LAC. F.W. Beasty.
S/Ldr. H.E. Blyth.
S/Ldr. Hector Bolitho.
Air Chief Marshal Sir R. Brooke-Popham, G.C.V.O., K.C.B., C.M.G., D.S.O., A.F.C.
W/Cdr. B.A. Burbridge, D.S.O., D.F.C. and bar.
S/Ldr. G.A. Butler, D.S.O., D.F.C.
F/O. R.F. Clayton D.F.C.
LAC. Sidney Colin.
S/Ldr. F.A. Currey.
Walt Disney.
W/O. A.J. Dixon.
Corpl. E.H. Dodimead.
F/O. A.F. Hailey.
LAC. Leslie Halward.
Corpl. J. Hay.
P/O. Guy Hopkins.
LACW. A.M. Howarth.
W/Cdr. Leslie Kark.
S/Ldr. Lord Kinross.
S/Ldr. David Langdon.
S/Ldr. John Macadam.
F/Lt. P.R. Manning.
S/Ldr. F. Ogilvy.
AC1. Eric H. Partridge.
F/O. B. Perkins.
S/Ldr. John Pudney.
S/Ldr R.B. Raymond.
F/O. E. Roberts.
Sgt. H.W.O. Roy.
F/Lt. A.F. Taylor, D.F.C.
Sgt. G. Thomson.
S/Ldr. Frank Tilsley.
Corpl. R. Urwin.
Sgt. N.A. Varley.
LACW. P. Whitlock.
F/Lt. A.A. Williams.
F/Sgt. Ian Williams.
Corpl. C.R. Woodward. [/italics][/boxed]
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Want a Job?
[cartoon]
By L.A.C. R. WILLIAMS
THERE must be many a man in the Service who is awaiting his release with some trepidation on account of uncertainty about his future in the labour market. Possibly he was very young when he came into the R.A.F. and he has no trade now at an age when he needs a man’s wages. Or, like myself, he many have spent his last few years before donning a uniform on a war job in a shadow factory – a shadow factory which, with the coming of peace, has now closed. With the best will in the world, reinstatement regulations cannot help in such cases.
I thought the matter over carefully, had a chat with the Education Officer, and decided to be a school teacher. Now, before you say, “Not for me,” and turn to the next article let me hasten to add that I have no qualifications whatsoever. I left school – an elementary school – at fourteen without a certificate of any kind. The school discharged me from its portals without even so much as an introduction to the subjects of algebra and geometry.
The only thing in my favour was my age, which was well within the limits! The age limits are 21 years minimum, and 35 maximum.
I sent an application to the Ministry of Education at 14, Lennox Gardens, S.W.1, for consideration as a potential trainee under the Emergency Scheme for Recruitment and Training of Teachers. The Ministry sent me a form of application to complete. Rather a lot of detail was required, such as nationality; place and date of birth; schools attended; whether any subjects studied since leaving school; occupation since leaving school. There is no need to fear the last question. I have had twelve jobs in fifteen years ranging from newspaper boy to aero-engine machining, but that did not debar me.
After the form had been sent away I had to wait rather a long time for the next development. So long, in fact, was the delay that I abandoned all hope, thinking I had been considered ineligible because of my lack of education.
However, in due course a long buff envelope marked O.H.M.S arrived, informing me that I was required to present myself on September 18th at a school in Birmingham for the purpose of an interview in respect of my application. An additional slip of paper furnished thorough and lucid directions as to how to reach the school. Even the price of a ‘bus ticket from Birmingham G.W.R station was not omitted!
At that time I was on a fitters’ course at Cosford, and a day off under such conditions is, of course, a serious business, but my Wing C.O. authorized it without the slightest hesitation – which is in line with the R.A.F.’s policy of backing up airmen who make efforts to enhance their post-Service prospects.
The printed directions to took me to the address without a hitch. A lady receptionist ticked my name off a long list, and took me into a classroom. There were between fifteen and twenty other people in this room. They were all prospective teachers. All except four were girls, and all accept me were civilians.
I confess I was nervous as I waited my turn to be interviewed; so much depended on the outcome of the interview. Success meant lifelong security; security for me, for my wife, and for my kiddies. It meant clean clothes and clean hands, and it was not snobbishness that may made them so desirable. For years my job was such that my hands needed scrubbing before I could sit down to eat, and a complete change of clothing was
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imperative if I wished to go out in the evening.
My turn came and I was ushered into an adjoining room to face four men and a woman. Their attitude was one of friendly interest. They were at pains to dispel my nervousness, and I soon felt completely at ease.
Most of the questions were on various aspects of education. For instance:-
What effect do you think the raising of the school-leaving age will have on the children; on the school; on industry?
What are your views on co-education?
My answers to these and other questions were received without the slightest hint as to whether my views were acceptable or otherwise. However, I gained the impression (for no reason that I could describe) that I was getting a favourable reception, and I left the room well pleased with myself.
Next followed the essay. Again there was no need to fear that lack of knowledge would constitute an obstacle. The subject set – “Describe a recent experience” – ensured that everyone would have something to write about.
Back at Cosford I spent eleven weeks of anxious waiting. A magazine paragraph quoting the Ministry of Education stated that out of 24,000 applicants only 4,000 had been accepted. Of course, it is likely that many of the 24,000 had not yet been interviewed, but the statement did little to restore my confidence.
However, the notifications duly arrived. I had been accepted! Now I am simply waiting for my demobilization, then I shall go to a college for twelve months of intensive training. After that I shall be a teacher, though on two years’ probation. At the end of that time I shall be a fully certified teacher.
During my training I and my family will receive an adequate allowance. As soon as I begin teaching I qualify for rates of pay as laid down by the Burnham scale, which provides that the teacher shall receive a commencing salary of £300 per annum raising by annual increments of £15 to £525 per annum. These rates of pay are a [Italics] minimum. [/Italics] They can be supplemented, by special qualifications of a technical nature. A degree, too, has a hard cash value and I, for one, have every intention of studying for one as soon as I have established myself as a teacher. Then there is the possibility of becoming a headmaster; that, of course, carries correspondingly higher rates of pay.
Let us assume that you have decided to have a crack at it and in response to your application you have been summoned for an interview. Let me give you a few tips on how to conduct yourself.
1. – Direct to your talk to whoever is sitting in the centre of the group opposite you. He will be the Chairman. Apart from its being respectful to do so, the Chairman generally has more to say than anybody else about final decisions and selections.
2. – Be candid and frank in your talk. Replied to the questions promptly and concisely. At the same time do not through nervousness rush your replies if there is any risk of your getting them muddled. Much better to take your time, if the subject-matter is at all complicated. To do so is only reasonable. Seize any chance to expand the reply a little. Bring forward tactfully some particulars about yourself which the appointing people may be glad to have. Don't prattle, but remember that they are actually anxious for you to talk about yourself to help them in making up their minds about you. Needless to say the expanding of your reply must be carefully done – to avoid leaving any impression of boasting or undue forwardness.
3. – The selection board is probably interviewing several applicants and can spare only a short time for each. Hence, it is essential that you should appear (whatever your real feelings may be!) completely calm, and unembarrassed, and confident, but not over-confident. If your attitude is calm, your speech clear and controlled, your talk lucid and relevant, they will decide that whatever may be said about your other qualifications – or lack of them – you are at least not a person easily flustered, and that is a most necessity attribute in a potential teacher.
And there you are. If you have no job to return to, and you fancy a clean, secure, and interesting if exacting job, see your Education Officer. 70,000 teachers are wanted – go in and win!
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[Image] So Long, Joe! [Image]
By SQUADRON LEADER R.B. RAYMOND
[Image]
[Image]
[Image]
IN this last issue of the [Italics] Royal Air Force Journal, [/Italics] Joe, the moon-faced bespectacled little erk who has appeared in the [Italics] Journal [/Italics] for over three years makes his final bow. He accompanies his artist creator, David Langdon, to the Release Centre and thence to Civvy Street.
During the time Joe has occupied the small space on the bottom of a page in the [Italics] Journal [/Italics], he has made a host of friends. Not only was he popular with members of the Services, but also with their wives and children. Many officers and men, strictly against regulations, took Joe into their homes.
Joe represents the typical “little man” in blue, doomed to a lowly rank (he never got beyond A.C.1), eager to get on with the job, living in awe of Officers and N.C.O.’s, but in spite of all, imbued with a full measure of [italics] esprit de corps [/italics]. Joe was one of the Fitters who, with all the other tradesmen, worked night and day to keep the fighters in the air when we were in our “darkest hour.” One feels that Joe will remember the magnificent reputation that the R.A.F. made for itself during those hectic days, and will be jealous of it for as long as he lives.
Joe did his best to help win the war. He realised that in relatively minor position of an erk, he couldn't do anything as spectacular as a pilot or his C.O., or that legendary figure who appeared from time to time from Group or Command with the broad ring and a row of gongs that reminded Joe of liquorice all-sorts. But he did what he could. First, he did the job he had come into the Service to do. He serviced aircraft. But that, to Joe, wasn't enough. He wanted to help in other ways. He realised that a little thing like turning off electric lights in an empty room was, in its way, a contribution to the war effort. So he turned off lights, and sometimes in his zeal he overlooked the fact that a visiting Air Chief Marshal was using the room at the time. Joe bought War Saving Certificates, he dug for Victory, he used the telephone less and he stopped careless talk; things that did not earn gongs or a mention in dispatches, but which were all very essential to winning the war.
During the last war, Bruce Bairnsfather created “Old Bill,” a loveable grumbler, typifying the foot-slogger of the British Army in Flanders. In this war, the United States Army had its Sad Sack and its Artie Greengroin; the British Army had its “Two Types”; and the R.A.F. – Joe and P/O Percy Prune.
These characters were all, with the exception of Joe, “bad types”. The creators of the “Two Types,” Prune, Sad Sack and Greengroin approached their task along the line of least resistance. To get their interest and laughs they poked fun at discipline and showed how not to win a war by picturing their characters in the acts of virtually sabotaging the war effort, and then enjoining their readers by implication not to follow their bad example. This was, to say the least, a negative form of teaching. But Joe showed his readers how to contribute towards winning a war by doing the right thing, and he succeeded in obtaining his laughs in spite of always being “Mr. Right.”
How is it then that Joe did not degenerate into first-class binder or, if you like – a prig? Look at him and you have half the answer. He is a little fellow. He is likeable at first sight. He stands very much on his own. He gets picked on by the bigger chap, and things don't go smoothly for him in spite of the fact that he tries always to do the right thing. Off-duty, Joe was as human as they come. Witness him showing off on his bicycle before a pretty WAAF and ending up in hospital. But, when on duty, Joe meant business.
The other reason why Joe is popular is because he makes you laugh. To be able to put over a point loaded to the teeth with propaganda, to make the reader laugh and yet remember the point, is a very difficult task – try it yourself sometime if you don’t believe it, and then keep it up for thirty-six months.
And now Joe is going back to Civvy Street. The Service will miss him. He has done a good job. Like his creator he has served his time. Let’s wish him luck.
So long, Joe!
[Italics] The illustrations accompanying the above article have been extracted from “Joe” strip cartoons already published in the “Journal.” ‘Joe’ fans may care to turn them into a memory test and see whether they can recall the full sequence of which these drawing form part. [/Italics]
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PARLIMENTARY COMMENTARY
Release Probe – 7
[Italics] Below is given a selection of replies by Ministers in Parliament on release and other Service questions, extracted from the Parliamentary Debates (Hansard). Personnel have already been informed of many of the points dealt with, through “Demobforms” and “Newpayforms” issued by the Air Ministry.
One-Man Businesses
Mr. VANE asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the hardship caused to owners of one-man businesses whose release from the Forces under Class C is now being refused solely because their businesses had to be closed down when they volunteered or were called up; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure these men are not treated less generously than men whose position was exactly similar at the beginning of the war but who were able to find someone nominally to keep their businesses in existence for them and so improve their claim to be released now. [/Italics]
MR. LAWSON: Compassionate cases, of whatever sort, are dealt with on their individual merits. Owners of one-man businesses which were closed down on their entry into the army are not altogether excluded from consideration. An extremely limited number of cases where the opportunity of re-opening is unlikely to recur if the business is not re-opened immediately can be considered. Any further relaxation of the rules would either be at the expense of other types of compassionate cases or would be liable to interfere with releases under Class A.
[Italics] (March 5th, 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Signals Officers
SIR E. GRAHAM-LITTLE asked the Under Secretary of State for Air why the release of R.A.F. officers in the sub-branch, Signals, Radar, is delayed relatively to other branches of that service; and whether, in view of the fact that the need for many forms of Radar no longer exists, that officers of this sub-branch are being employed on other non-specialist duties, that many such officers have technical qualifications of use to industry; and that as the rate of release of airmen in allied trades is above the general level, he will expedite the release of these officers. [/Italics]
MR. STRACHEY: The main reason for delay in release of these R.A.F officers is the deficiency caused by the withdrawal of many officers who were members of the Royal Canadian Air Force. The duties of radar officers have not decreased as fast as those of other signals officers owing to the demands made by the air trooping and occupation programme, particularly in relation to the handling of aircraft safety equipment. I am not aware that radar officers are being employed on non-specialist duties but, if the hon. Member has any specific case in mind and will send me particulars, I shall be glad to look into it. The requirements of radar officers are different from those of airmen in allied trades and there are proportionally more officers than airmen in the earlier age and service groups. It is not, therefore, possible to keep the release of officers in step with that of airmen. I appreciate the need to speed up the release of radar officers and we are doing all we can to this end by training and retraining, but it takes over six months to train to the required standard.
[Italics] (March 6th, 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Agricultural Workers
MR. PAGET asked the Under Secretary of State for Air what steps have been taken to notify members of the R.A.F. that agricultural workers with a year or more service are entitled to Class B release; and whether commanding officers have been notified that disciplinary action will be taken if this release is delayed. [/Italics]
MR STRACHY: Members of the Royal Air Force who are shown by their records to have been agricultural workers at the time of their enlistment and who have served for at least one year in the R.A.F. are being offered release under the block scheme in Class B. We have instructed commanding officers to accelerate the process of
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Class B release and I am satisfied that officers appreciate the importance of their responsibility in this matter. We have also notified the Service as a whole, through one of our Demob forms, that any man who considers that he has been overlooked for Class B release can make representations to his commanding officer; the fact are then reported to the Record Office and, if confirmed, the man is offered Class B release.
[Italics] (March 19th, 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Science Students [/Italics]
MR. SOLLEY [Italics] asked the Minister of Labour what are his plans for retraining scientific personnel whose normal studies were interrupted, or who have been drafted onto work which they would not normally have undertaken and are now in overcrowded professions. [/Italics]
MR ISAACS: Science students of First Class or Second Class Honours standard selected by their Universities as research students or third year students, and other science students selected by their Universities as of high promise or who were called up before the end of their normal deferment and before they had had an opportunity of taking the Honours Degree, are eligible for release from the Forces in Class B if they are in release groups 1 – 49 or from industry, if they have performed work of national importance for not less than three years. Financial assistance is available to such students if they come within the scope of the Further Education and Training Scheme.
[Italics] (March 19th. 1946 [/Italics]
[Italics] Individual Specialists [/Italics]
MR. DE LA BERE [Italics] asked the Minister of Labour whether, in the view of the delay in effecting repairs to railway locomotives, motor vehicles and boots and shoes, special consideration will be given to those categories for release from the Forces in those cases where it can be established that the men serving are skilled and experienced in these trades. [italics]
MR NESS EDWARDS: It is open to an employer in any of the trades mentioned to apply through the appropriate Government Department for the release of a particular man in Class B if he can properly be regarded as an individual specialist whose services are essential for urgent work of national importance.
[Italics] (March 21st. 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Equipment Officers [/Italics]
MAJOR N. MACPHERSON [Italics/] asked the Under Secretary of State for Air whether he is now in a position to state whether the rate of release of R.A.F. equipment officers will have caught up with the average rate of release by June; and, if not, how many groups behind it will be on 30th June, 1946, and at what rate the release will be proceeding. [/Italics]
MR. STRACHEY: In our advance promulgation for May and June, equipment assistants will be brought up to the general level of release of airmen, but I regret that equipment officers will then be 10 groups behind. The equipment officers have specially heavy responsibilities at present, and we depend largely on their experience for the proper disposal of large quantities of valuable equipment. Moreover, a very high proportion of our equipment officers are in groups 20 – 29. This means that for the period from February to May we shall have offered release to over a third of the officers who were in this branch on February 1st. We are doing all we can to raise their rate of release by training suitable G.D. officers, and I hope that better progress will be made when they reach the groups from 30 onwards.
[Italics] (March 27th. 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Other Topics [/italics]
[italics] Release Clothing [/Italics]
MRS. GANLEY [Italics] asked the Secretary of State for War what is the length of time demobilized men will have to wait for mackintosh or overcoat; and whether supplies can be speeded up in order to allow of outer garments being issued at the same time as suits etc. [/Italics]
MR LAWSON: When a man cannot be fitted with his correct size from stock, it is at present from four to eight weeks before he receives it by post. Every effort has been made to increase production: the position is improving, and I hope that the present difficulties will be overcome by the end of April
[Italics] (March 6th. 1946) [/Italics]
MR. CALLAGHAN [Italics] asked the Under Secretary of State for Air why the system of permitting airmen to purchase their [/italics]
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[italics] greatcoats on demobilisation has been discontinued. [/italics]
MR STRACHEY: At no time have airmen on demobilization been allowed to purchase a greatcoat. The issue of civilian clothing includes a raincoat, and, of a suitable raincoat is not available at the time, an airman is allowed to borrow a greatcoat. His account is debited 38s. which is cancelled on return of the greatcoat.
[Italics] (March 19th, 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Pensions and Grants [/Italics]
SIR W. DARLING [Italics] asked the Minister of Pensions if he is prepared to consider reviewing the regulations so that in the event if any member of the fighting Forces being invalided, disabled or dying on service, the illness, disability or death shall be deemed to be attributable to Military Service unless the contrary is proved. [/Italics]
MR. WILFRED PALING: The war pensions instruments already provide that, in determining entitlement in such cases, certain presumptions shall be made in a claimant’s favour, and that the benefit of any reasonable doubt shall be given to him. I am, however, unable to recommend any departure from the long established principle that, where disablement or death was unconnected with war service, an award of pension cannot be made.
[Italics] (March 21st, 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Overseas Tour (India) [/Italics]
MR. NAYLOR [Italics] asked the Under Secretary of State for Air if he has any further statement to make concerning the complaints still being received from men in the R.A.F. contingents in India, especially referring to the reduction in the maximum period of the tour; the recalling of men who have spent the major period of their service in England after serving only a short time in India, while others who have served several years abroad are being retained; and the anomaly of the repatriation of time-expired men being given the lowest priority. [/Italics]
MR STRACHEY: In my statement on the Air Estimates on 12th March, I said that from 1st April the overseas tour of duty for single men in the Royal Air Force would be reduced from three years and six months to three years, thus bringing their overseas tour into line with that at present laid down for married men. As I also explained then, it will take until 1st October to complete this reduction, which we are carrying out at a time when we already have a heavy programme of release and repatriation. After then we hope to go farther.
Since the beginning of the release programme, I realize that it has sometimes been necessary, in order to avoid delays in the release of men due for demobilization, to send other airmen overseas who have had only a limited further period to serve before themselves becoming due for release. This has been done solely with the aim of ensuring that release should not vary between members of the R.A.F. serving in this country and those overseas. It is for this reason, too, that those who are overseas and are due for release, have priority in transport, together with those who are posted home on compassionate grounds. Fortunately, this priority has not generally affected the repatriation of tour-expired airmen, very few of whom have been delayed in their return for duty to this country.
[Italics] (March 22nd, 1946) [/Italics]
[Italics] Reserve Command [/Italics]
Reserve Command of the Royal Air Force will be re-established in the immediate future. Its primary function will be to maintain and train adequate reserves of flying and ground personnel. To that end it will recruit to the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve; foster the creation and development of the Auxiliary Air Force; assume responsibility for the Air Training Corps, and, in co-operation with the University authorities, re-create the University Air Squadrons. Group H.Q. of Reserve Command will be set up; they will coincide geographically with Army Commands.
These Group Headquarters will, in turn, set up Town Centres and will provide training facilities, Public announcements will then be made inviting officers and men released from the Royal Air Force to join the Volunteer
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Reserve or the Auxiliary Units. The Territorial Army and Air Force Association will be the main recruiting agency.
The twenty Auxiliary Squadrons which existed before the war will be re-created on their old territorial basis. Commanding officers are now being appointed. Most of these units will be day and night fighter squadrons and, when fully trained, they will form part of the First Line Air Defences of this country. But several light bomber Auxiliary Squadrons will also be formed, probably in such spheres as Operational Control and Radar work.
Discussions have been opened with the University authorities to determine at which Universities it will be possible to maintain University Air Squadrons.
For the present we propose to maintain the A.T.C. at a strength of 75,000.
From a corps of this size we should be able to accept all cadets of a satisfactory standard into the air forces; but it must be realised that not all can become aircrew . . . .We attach the utmost importance to these non-regular forces and it may well be that in the future, it will be desirable, and possible, to develop then to a much greater degree than before the war, Such development will take time, however, and I must warn the House that we shall not immediately be in a position to give intending recruits to the non-regular forces the same facilities as those that existed before the war. But the main thing is to get a firm basis, and we confidently appeal to all those who have the interests of the R.A.F. at heart to help us, in one way or another, in this rebuilding of our non-regular force.
[Italics] March 27th, 1946) [/italics]
[boxed] W.A.A.F. SPORTS NEWS
List of Summer Representation Games
Wednesday, 17 April, 1946. – WAAF v. ATS. Badminton.
Wednesday, 1 May, 1946. – WAAF v. ATS Squash Rackets (team of five players).
Saturday, 15 June, 1946. – WRNS organising Inter-Service Tennis Tournament.
Monday, 17 June, 1946. – ATS v. WAAF. Golf.
Saturday, 29 June, 1946. – ATS v. WAAF. Inter-Command Sports Meeting. (See below).
Saturday, 29 June, 1946. ATS v. WAAF – Netball Match (First Sevens).
Saturday, 20 July, 1946. – ATS v. WAAF. Cricket (all day).
Saturday, 27 July, 1946. – Inter Service Swimming Gala (See below).
Saturday, 7 September, 1946. – WRNS v. WAAF. Tennis.
Saturday, 28 September, 1946. – ATS v. WRNS. Tennis.
Sports Meeting
The WAAF and ATS Inter-Command Sports Meeting will include the following events. It will be run on an Inter-Command basis with the finalists from the ATS competing in the final heat against finalists from the WAAF in each event:-
100 yards flat, 220 yards flat, high jump, long jump, hurdles, skipping race, obstacle race, potato race, flower-pot race, horse and driver race, relay race.
Swimming Gala
The Inter-Services Swimming Gala will include the following events:-
Relay race – free style; Medley relay race – breast, back, side and crawl; style swimming – breast, crawl, back crawl and English back stroke; stunts; diving – low, middle and high boards, free style; plunge; one length race – crawl, back and breast; obstacle race. [/boxed]
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[Image]
The Golden Eagle
[symbol]
[Italic]The background picture is an actual photograph of a 4,000 lb. incendiary bursting below an attacking aircraft. [/Italic]
[symbol]
By FLIGHT LIEUTENANT KENNETH AMES, D.F.C. and Bar
FROM the heart of Mayfair to the peaceful fields of East Anglia is a fairly long cry; from the heart of Mayfair to the ruined cities of the erstwhile Third Reich is even further. But for the crews of Bomber Command’s Pathfinder Force it was all a question of time.
At the end of Mount Street, just before you turn into Berkley Square, is the inconspicuous entrance to the friendly club rooms of the Pathfinder Association. Here it is that the air crews who earned their golden eagle badges (golden albatross, for those who insist on literal accuracy) lighting the way for Bomber Command’s offensive, now drop in and meet old friends to talk over some of the breath-taking experiences which they had together on their squadrons.
Most emphatic of the numerous objectives of this Association, which is open to all former members of No. 8 Group, is “to foster and encourage the spirit of comradeship which existed in the Pathfinder Force” . . . a spirit which grew from the example set by Air Vice-Marshall D. Bennett when he founded the formidable striking force during the lean months of 1942.
Here one must add that the name of P.F.F. and of its chief will go down in history as for ever inseparable. One of the most versatile figures in aviation, he was called upon to organize the new spearhead for Bomber Command and, at the age of 33 became the youngest Air Vice-Marshal in the Service. Previous to this he had had a long and varied career; flying for the R.A.F., The R.A.A.F. and for Imperial Airways. As an airline pilot, Captain Bennet was the first man to fly a pay-load across the Atlantic; he wrote a standard text-book on air navigation and in 1940 inaugurated the Atlantic Ferry Service to bring aircraft to Britain. Later he rejoined the R.A.F., became commander of a bomber squadron, and was shot down and escaped via Sweden.
Back in England, Air Vice-Marshal Bennett established his Pathfinder H.Q. in the peaceful market town of Huntingdon. There, in August of 1943, he gathered a nucleus of specially trained crews around him and set about the job.
The Fire Raisers
In the spring of that year matters had been going badly for this country and Bomber Command was perhaps the most effective offensive weapon we possessed; but for the bombers there was the difficulty of unfavourable European weather. Thick cloud over the target area often made bomb-aiming difficult and valuable loads fell wide.
The problem was to find an instrument which would tell the navigator where he was on the darkest of nights and direct the weight of bombs on to the objective.
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The first step in the solution of that problem came with the advent of “Gee.” The first Gee-controlled operation was carried out against Essen in March, 1942. A number of trained crews, known then as “fir-raisers” or “illuminators” led the main force against the Krupp works. Guided by the blaze of target-marking incendiaries, a huge force of heavies went in to attack. The results were disappointing. True, there was some improvement, but still only a minute proportion of the total weight was falling within the target area.
So the initial “fire-raisers” became the core around which this new Pathfinder Force was developed. The early history of this force was not, as some have claimed, “immediately and unmistakably successful,“ but as raid followed raid, the skill of the crews increased and more and more bombs found their mark.
Yet, even then, neither Bennett nor the “boffins” who gave us “Gee” were satisfied. Within a matter of weeks, a new type of target indicator has been perfected which cascaded in brilliant colours from a height of 3,000 feet. These markers were visible even through thin cloud and were readily distinguishable amongst the raging fires which consumed one city after another. Then a rapid succession, came of the development of “Oboe” and H2S” which, together with the red, yellow and green T.I.s and the skymarker flares, remained the principal weapons of P.F.F. throughout the war.
“Oboe”-controlled Mosquito aircraft were assigned to the marking of targets in France, Belgium and the Ruhr, whilst Lancasters equipped with “H2S” carried the war from one end of Nazi-controlled Europe to the other, checking every village, town, river and lake on their radar screens as they thundered through the night to pinpoint their objectives.
Virtually, their first outstanding victory came on a return visit to the Number One Hunting Ground – Krupps armament works – in March, 1943. This was the first occasion on which bombing has any appreciable effect on the production of the greatest of Germany’s arsenals.
The “Master Bomber” technique, which was to become an integral part of P.F.F. tactics, was first tried out by Wing Commander Daniels over Frankfurt as early as 1942, but paid its first big dividend in the historic Peenemunde raid of August, 1943.
The Peenemunde Raid
A photographic interpreter studying coverage of the Peenemunde research station first observed a small object resembling an aircraft on a long launching ramp. Word was quickly sent out and a strong force of bombers mustered to attack the station in moonlight. Orbiting the target at low level, Pathfinders’ Masters Bomber assessed the T.I. markers and passed corrections over the R/T. Then the bombs went down to obliterate Germany’s flying bomb research centre and afford a valuable delay in the attacks on London. Now, twelve months after the conclusion of the war, this operation stands out as one of the most epoch-making blows dealt out by Bomber Command in the whole five and a half years of war.
As the winter nights of 1943 lengthened and the weather became worse the Pathfinders continued, with ever-increasing efficiency, to lead huge forces of Halifaxes and Lancasters out over the North Sea and into the heart of Berlin’s defences. Night after night the target was the same; night after night the tactics were the same. The “Wanganui” skymarkers went down over Germany and load after load of destruction followed through a solid banket of cloud.
In March, 1944 – with Invasion in the offing – yet another phase of operations began. The new Mosquito Night Striking Force was left to deal the final blows at Berlin; the heavies were switched to small rail targets in France and Belgium. This necessitated a further modification in technique, for, with a friendly population sleeping only a few hundred yards from their targets, the bomber crews had to make 100 per cent. certain of putting their H.E. loads right on the objective, or else bring them back. The Master Bomber came into full prominence. Operating on
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cloudless nights, hundreds of four-engine bombers flew to attack railway junctions, troop concentrations and gun-sites, directed by the Master aircraft. The targets were small and often cleverly concealed, but the Master Bomber seldom failed to locate them.
Before the Invasion
The crescendo came when more than sixteen hundred bombers battered the coastal defences, rail-communications, ammunition dumps and transport parks in one colossal pre-invasion offensive. That night every bomb-aimer held the same objective in his bomb-sight – the Red Target indicators laid by the marker crews of P.F.F. Cruising home over the Cherbourg Peninsula in the grey light of dawn, every crew saw the huge armada sailing to the Normandy beaches; and they guessed that their work was almost done.
Only a few months after this, a suggestion was put forward to form an association or club to continue in peacetime the spirit and comradeship which has carried the Force forward
[photograph]
[Italics] A Lancaster Master-Bomber on a night raid dropping a photo-flash [/italics]
from one success to another during its great operation career. The vote was unanimous in favour of such a scheme.
New, in a world at peace, operations are but a faint memory for the men who foregather in their Mount Street headquarters.
Numbers of them are by now wearing civilian suits and are back at their city desks; it is an incredible changeover from the life they were living a year ago. Others come in for a drink and a chat wearing the smart blue uniform of airline pilots, for the Force is strongly represented by its crews in civilian aviation.
The majority, however, still in light blue, are scattered throughout the Service, on many and varied duties.
Whatever time of day you choose to step down into the club, there will always be at least a handful of people standing around, talking, signing the visitors book, or sunk deep in the lounge chairs. Although the association has only been established six months the membership already exceeds the twenty-five hundred mark, including a large number of non-flying personnel.
Squadron Leader Edward Brant, the Secretary, has an aptitude for remembering names and understanding other people’s problems, but even he is occasionally a little pushed by the constant stream of callers.
Pathfinders Employment Agency
Principal headache for the Squadron Leader is the career-finding agency which was inaugurated as one of the primary aids for rehabilitation of members. It claims to be one of the most unique employment bureaux in existence.
“If you know what you want – we’ll have a first-class attempt at finding it for you“ seems to be the motto of this agency. Anything from aircraft-designing to veterinary surgery, from cinema art-directing to bridge-building, their files cover almost every conceivable type of occupation for demobilized air crew. Already scores of men have been placed by the Association and the organization is working overtime at the gargantuan task of trying to fit its members into the best niches.
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A W.A.A.F. in Soviet Russia
By SECTION OFFICER J.E. THOMAS
[photograph]
I WONDER how many W.A.A.F. know that they were represented on the British Youth Delegation, recently returned to this country after two months’ stay in the Soviet Union. I was the lucky one who was chosen as the W.A.A.F. representative, so I should like to tell you something about our travels.
There were seventeen of us, led by Mr John Platts-Mills, M.P., and with our Russian hosts we covered about 8,000 miles of the country, mostly by air. Using Moscow as our base, we went as far north as the beautiful city of Leningrad, with the buildings painted yellow, red and green against a background of glistening snow. We went to the Ukraine, over which the Germans advanced so triumphantly in the early part of the war on the eastern front. We saw Stalingrad, or what remains of it, where that advance was turned, and we had the wonderful experience of flying over the Caucasus Mountains and down the coast of the Black Sea, to the little health resort of Sochi. Here, for the first and only time, we could go without our boots and greatcoats, as we wandered among the palm trees and lemon groves, or scrambled down the cliffs to the sea in the early morning to watch the porpoises and gulls.
In Search of Youth
Everywhere we went we were entertained royally, in the true Russian tradition of hospitality, by young people.
In each place we visited we learnt to expect a banquet on our arrival, another one on leaving, and at least one visit to the local ballet or opera during our stay. This was inevitable, and incidentally much appreciated, as was also the time devoted to sight-seeing. But we had gone with a purpose, and it was, in general, to examine the position of youth in the Soviet Union. Therefore, everywhere we went, we were taken as a delegation to kindergartens and children's hospitals, to schools and pioneer houses, where the children spend much of their leisure time. Wherever possible we visited the University or Technical Institute. We talked to young people on the farms and in the factories, and we attended services in the churches. This was of interest to us all, but most of us had our own special interests as well, and we did have some opportunity to follow it up.
I set out with the idea of talking to the girls in uniform wherever I met them, so that I could get some picture of the part that they had played during the war, and of their activities now. But the odd thing was that, for a long time, I could not find a single uniform among the women I met.
During our week’s stay in Leningrad we heard a good deal about the siege, about the constant shelling and the
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fearful hunger and cold. We were told that about 2,500 of the university students had volunteered to join in the fighting, and that the remainder had turned out to build the street blockades, and we understood that every able-bodied man and woman had played their part in the defence of the city. But the Leningraders seem to have put all that behind them. Their repair work has been so rapid that we could find few scars in the main part of the city. This great cultural and scientific centre has resumed its peace-time aspect. I do not think I saw one woman in uniform.
And about ten days later I discovered the reason. I was in Kiev, the capital of the Ukraine, when at last a Red Army girl crossed my path. At least she was wearing uniform, but I soon discovered that she had been demobilized some months before. She had taken down her Lieutenant's epaulettes but otherwise her uniform, including her buttons, was unchanged. I asked her about demobilization, and she told me that as soon as it started, all the women were free to return to their interrupted training, to resume their pre-war occupation or to help with the gigantic task of reconstruction. Already they are back in the Universities or technical schools, where they have resumed their pre-war studies. They are back in the factories and on the farms, which they left when their country was threatened, or they have volunteered to work in the damaged areas on clearance and rebuilding. In fact the majority of the service women are back in civilian life. There were a few who wished to remain in the services, but I met only three. One was a woman doctor, a Lieutenant-Colonel, who was in charge of an Army medical school and clinic, and there were two interpreters of oriental languages, to whom I talked in the theatre one night. To my amazement they both spoke a little English, and one of them said to me: “I expect to be in the service till my death.” But she did not say it gloomily! These last were however the exception rather than the rule. There was no question of not being able to get a job on release. There was plenty of work to be done to get the economy of the country running again, and the ex-service women were doing their share.
No Auxiliary Services
The next thing that I tried to find out from this girl in Kiev was how the women's services were organised. From her and from other people I gathered there was nothing really comparable to our women's auxiliary services. The Russian women volunteered to work in almost every branch of the three fighting forces, and they did so on an equal footing with the men. They came under the same administration they had the same punishments (including if necessary the death sentence). They received the same pay and they trained with them. For instance, this particular girl had been on anti-aircraft guns. She had started off with three months’ preliminary training behind the lines in a detachment with which she later served as a fully-fledged private at the front. Then she was put up for a commission, so she went to Leningrad, and there she studied for a year at the same training centre as the men. This study included general education, as well as military training.
Direct commissions were given to those with previous training such as doctors and nurses. In Sochi, the sanatorium town, I came across a girl who had had three years’ training as a nurse before the war. When the war started she became at once a Lieutenant in the Army. She served at the front, nursing and driving ambulances, and was herself wounded. After demobilization she decided to become a doctor, so she came down to Sochi, though her home was in Moscow nearly 900 miles away, to study at the famous Stalin Institute. It was at a dance at this Institute that I met her. Unfortunately, I got hold of one of her male interpreters to translate for us, and every time the music started he took her off to dance. I did not make that mistake again!
In Sochi we visited a hospital dealing almost entirely with surgical cases arising out of the war, and we also saw the Red Army rest home, which is open to both men and women. It is a great white modern building, with big windows overlooking the Black Sea. It is
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surrounded by attractive gardens, full of the inevitable palm trees, many of which were covered by little wooden shelters in case any snow falls. A steep funicular railway runs right down to the shore, and I must say I almost envied any service people who had to come and rest in that beautiful place, so near to the mountains.
Girls who Fought
As I have told you, our next visit after Sochi was Stalingrad. There the devastation is quite beyond imagination. Even after seeing Berlin, it came as a great shock to drive for miles through a sea of bricks, not one of which is standing upon another. How the defenders survived in their two tiny salients on the bank of the Volga until the encircling army broke the German attack is an epic that is well remembered. But I must tell you the story of Nina, just one of the defenders of that heroic city, whom I met on my last night there. She was training as a medical student when the war broke out, so she joined up as a nurse and was active on many parts of the front. When Stalingrad was threatened she felt that, as she knew her way about so well, she could be of use in the defence. So she volunteered as a sniper and joined the infantry as a junior Sergeant. She was awarded the Order of the Red Star for bravery in the fighting, and soon afterwards she had to be invalided out as she lost her right hand. When I met her she was studying for her entrance exam, to the University, where she hoped to take up law.
Everywhere we went in the later stages of our journey I talked to girls who had been fighting in the front lines, or with the guerilla forces, or who had worked behind the enemy lines as members of the Secret Service. There were women, I was told, who sailed in the ships of the Red Navy, and were not barred from any post except that of captain of the vessel. And there were women pilots who flew alongside the men on operational flights. One of their well-known figures was a woman Lt.-Col. Bershanski, who commanded an air regiment comprising several squadrons.
One evening, towards the end of our stay, with visited a Red Air Force club in Moscow. It was a beautiful building, given over entirely to the use of members of the service, both men and women, and to their families. They have a theatre there where different Moscow companies present plays nearly every night, there is an extensive technology and recreational library, and there are many study circles, run for those who wish to further their education. This club is one of many open to service people in Moscow and elsewhere. We stayed to see part of the play that was being given in the theatre that evening. And once again as I looked round at the audience I noted the lack of women in uniform. But this time I understood, and I could picture some of those who must have thronged this club during the war, each during her appointed job for the reconstruction of her country. One of the most vivid impressions that I have brought home with me is of the spirit and purposefulness of these people. They know to what end they are working and they spare neither themselves not others in the achievement of that end.
[boxed] PRIZE WINNERS
Officers (R.A.F.)
1st Prize: FLIGHT LIEUTENANT KENNETH AMES, D.F.C. and Bar for [Italics] The Golden Eagle (Page 168) [/Italics]
2nd Prize: SQUADRON LEADER R.B. RAYMOND for [Italics] So Long Joe! [/Italics] (page 162)
WAAF (officers and Airwomen)
1st Prize: SECTION OFFICER J.E. THOMAS for [Italics] A W.A.A.F. in Soviet Russia [/Italics] (Page 171)
2nd Prize: No award.
Airmen
1st Prize: LAC R. WILLIAMS for [italics] Want a job? [/Italics] (Page 160)
2nd Prize: FLIGHT SERGEANT L.J. EVANS for [Italics] Our Mess [/Italics] (page 177)
Drawings
1st Prize: LAC H. SEABRIGHT for [Italics] The Evader [/Italics] (Paged 156 and 158)
2nd Prize: LAC L. ABRAHAMS for [Italics] Sergeants’ Mess [/italics] (Page 177) [/boxed]
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Report from Germany
By FLIGHT LIEUTENANT KENNETH LEWIS
SIX months ago I was in Germany. Last month I returned to the same place – to B.A.F.O. H.Q., to the Groups, the Wings and the Squadrons; and to see the final work of the Disarmament Units.
I found that things had changed a great deal since my last visit. Demobilization has meant the return home of many of the old crews; men who came all the way up from Normandy with 2nd T.A.F. had handed in their war service dress. New men and women had taken over, and this new company were doing the old and the new jobs in the towns, villages and airfields of the Reich.
I found it unusual to meet an old associate; and when I did I found that he too was expecting his Release Group to come up any day.
Six months ago W.A.A.F in Germany were as scarce as bananas in England; also like bananas they were arriving in small lots, being carefully guarded and in great demand.
To-day the W.A.A.F. have increased tremendously in numbers, are as popular as ever, and walk out alone, nonchalantly, in German streets. There are W.A.A.F clubs, W.A.A.F. cooks, W.A.A.F. on Signals, W.A.A.F. on M.T., W.A.A.F. in Welfare, in E.V.T., in everything. W.A.A.F. at Groups, at B.A.F.O. – in fact almost everywhere.
Since VE-Day
The men and the equipment which are passing from the German scene can look back upon a tremendous achievement during the months since VE-Day.
The efforts of 2nd T.A.F. which preceded victory were so intense and concentrated that it seemed hardly possible to expect anything like equivalent effort immediately following the end of the war.
There was the natural tendency to relax; all Units found themselves on the move into the new quarters in Germany; and everyone began to think of demob and home and the putting off of uniform. On top of this there was the collection of arms from German civilians to be done and the necessity of keeping a watch for Sabotage. B.A.F.O. was busy.
A great job has been done. Disarmament of the G.A.F. has been almost completed. The R.A.F. has rooted itself in Germany.
And the men and machines, drivers and Jeeps, pilots and aircraft which never stopped hitting the Germens in the sky and on the roads and railways all the way up through Europe and across the Rhine, these men, this equipment and have finished their job.
One group alone has disposed of hundreds of thousands of tons of Luftwaffe equipment since last autumn. Thousands of aircraft have been salvaged from German airfields. Some have been sent to England for use with our airlines and others have been handed over to our Allies. Radar stations have been pulled down; every town, village, factory and garage has been searched for equipment. Underground works and fortifications have been examined and hundreds of secret documents scrutinized. Every experimental and research station in the British zone of Germany has had expert eyes trained on it to pull out secrets and get information.
And then the results have been sent to Farnborough for further investigation, for trial and experiment.
The Big Bang
On top of all of this there have been months of destruction of materials which the Germans meant to send to England. In all over 100,000 tons of Luftwaffe explosives were found in the British zone. The biggest bang of all time – disregarding the Atom Bomb – took place early this year in the heart of the German countryside when 800 tons of bombs were destroyed.
The boys called it “Goering's funeral salvo.”
B.A.F.O. has not only destroyed the material might of the Luftwaffe; it has also dissolved its manpower. Hundreds of thousands of men have been demobilized. I met an ex-Luftwaffe pilot
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driving a Control Commission taxi in Berlin and a waiter in the W.A.A.F. mess at Buckeburg who was the equivalent of an L.A.C. in the Luftwaffe a few weeks ago. Great numbers of these Germans have been put to work on the land; some have gone to the coalmines; some are in factories or busy clearing away the rubble of German towns.
Settling In
While the Luftwaffe has been in process of dissolution, the R.A.F. has been settling into permanent establishments in Germany.
In Berlin and Hamburg, Buckeburg and Celle and on airfields and outpost stations, the R.A.F. has taken root: theatres and cinemas, shops and clubs have been established. In Buckeburg, “Pam's Tea Shop” serves 1,500 cakes a day and it is the exclusive right of the W.A.A.F. who run it to invite whom they will to afternoon refreshments.
[photograph]
[Italics] An S.P. on horseback. An unusual sight, seen in Celle. [/Italics]
In Celle, the only town anywhere where R.A.F. Police ride through the streets on white horses, there are German beer shops turned into typical English “Pubs.” There is a gift shop, a book shop where they sell £2,000 worth of books every month, and a photographic studio which has recently had a rush of people wanting a last snap of the old blue.
At Gatow airfield, just outside Berlin, the R.A.F. has opened up lakeside clubs; there English and American music, played by German orchestras, flows across the moon-lit waters of the Wann Zee. So also at Hamburg where the vast expanse of the Alster water-front echoes with airman’s songs, and where the British Forces Network finds new stars of radio from the ranks of the R.A.F.
Yes, B.A.F.O. has settled into the Reich for a long stay, living in German houses or ex-Luftwaffe barracks, where a measure of comfort has replaced the grim austerity of tent life. Preparations are being made to bring across from U.K. wives and families of officers and airmen.
The once-jackbooted Germans serve the humble airmen who defeated their arrogance. There are German tailors at R.A.F. stations, German hairdressers, German drivers, German waiters – Germans to hew the coal and draw the water.
The Germans have a wholesome respect for the British “Luftwaffe,” as they call us.
Recreation and Work
Week-ends are free from duty for most of the R.A.F. and W.A.A.F. Then there are riding clubs, gliding clubs, yachting clubs, theatres packed to hear concerts of classical music on Sunday afternoons, photographic tours, soccer matches, and the E.V.T. University for those who wish to study. There are also English church bells ringing out across German fields on Sunday mornings.
Some of the R.A.F. Units are away from all these amenities. They are the outposts. The Radar stations near county villages make their own amusement except when the weekly cinema show comes along or the occasional concert party. Life in these places is
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lonely, often uncomfortable and seldom exciting. These men guide our aircraft, which now fly over Germany unmolested, to safe bases. They are doing a job of war severity in peace. A great job.
Some fighters or fighter bombers, bombers or transport aircraft of the R.A.F. are still out somewhere over the Reich when weather permits. Then, these outpost men are busy.
Some of the aircraft carry passengers, some freight, some take mail and some pursue the gigantic task of making a photographic survey of every square inch of German territory. The Radar Units help them on their way.
So Germany has been disarmed in the air; but perhaps the job which lies ahead is the most important of all.
To-day and to-morrow for many to-morrows yet the R.A.F. must keep watch over Germany.
Demobilization will deplete the Armies on the ground. Air vigilance alone will be able effectively to arrest any attempt at insurrection, any outbreak of sabotage, any effort at uprising. The future work of B.A.F.O. is to police the Reich in the sky.
The efficiency of the old crews, on the ground and in the air, and the power of the old planning, brought the enemy low and took away his sword.
The newcomers will win their spurs by ensuring that Germany does not temper a new sword and draw it forth. It is a mighty commitment and the R.A.F. in Germany realize what is involved.
[boxed] [NAAFI Crest] NAFFI NEWS; [italics] COMING SHORTLY: [/italics]
[Italics] A booklet that answers your queries about NAAFI [/Italics]
“An Enquiring Airman Wants to Know”
[Italics] Who runs NAAFI?” . . . “What happens to the profits?” . . . “How are NAAFI prices fixed?” . . . “Why not cut out rebate and reduce the prices?” . . . All these and many more questions frequently asked by R.A.F. personnel are answered in this booklet, which will be distributed free. [/Italics]
WITH the vast expansion of the Royal Air Force during the war, and the changes in personnel since the cessation of hostilities, many thousands of men are now serving who appear to know little of the constitution and the practice of NAAFI. Under the pressure of active service, the wartime airman had scant opportunity to acquaint himself with the principles on which the canteens on air stations at home and overseas were operated. Not unnaturally, he was disposed to ask many pertinent questions and to feel suspicious if a satisfactory answer was not forthcoming.
This pamphlet is being produced in an endeavour to supply him with the information which he has a right to know. The questions are based on actual enquiries which have reached NAAFI Headquarters, passed on from airmen, from canteen committees or from officials of NAAFI who have received them in the course of their duties.
[cartoon]
An enquiring Airman wants to know . .
[Italics] Owing to paper restrictions only a limited number of pamphlets will be available for each R.A.F. Station and all airmen and airwomen are urged to look out for a copy and study its contents. NAAFI is your business, and you should know how it works. [/italics] [boxed]
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[Image]
Our Mess
[Italics] By FLIGHT SERGEANT L.J. Evans. [/Italics]
THERE are messes and messes. Some are good, some are bad, some are indifferent. Description of them all would run the gamut of adjectives. These are messes which are quiet, cosy and intimate; some are large and noisy; some are gaunt, cheerless and draughty; others garish with a spurious modernity.
There are messes which the most expressive derogatory epithets would fail adequately to portray, and a few which are near-perfect.
Ours is a friendly mess. Small, but not too small. Comfortable, but not enervatingly [sic] so. There are twenty or so sergeants, flight sergeants, and warrant officers, among them a sprinkling of airwomen. It is the best mess I have been in, after the wanderings of five and a half years. And now, on the eve of my re-entry to civil life to resume a half-forgotten profession, its characteristics have set me pondering on the qualities that make it so.
Let us first take the amenities. We have two fairly large dining tables, set squarely in the centre of the room, which is just the convenient size for two dozen people. There are dining chairs to suit; and half a dozen armchairs and a settee. There are cards, papers and periodicals, a radiogram and records, a piano and a dartboard. Along one end is a sideboard to hold crockery and food.
The flames of a cheery blaze lick the brick walls of the fireplace and the wistful strains of [Italics] Finlandia [/Italics] float across the room from the radio. Over the fireplace is a notice board, and alongside it a smaller blackboard on which is chalked the menu for every meal. So when you enter the room you can tell immediately what there is to eat, and without ado, tell the waitress what you want and how much.
Such are the external manifestations of comfort. But then these things do not necessarily make a good mess, any more than fine clothes make the man, though they contribute substantially. What makes it a good mess more than anything is the friendly spirit you find in it. Arriving, a newcomer, you are soon made to feel “at home” and within a week or even less you are one of the family. I have been in messes where you are almost as much a stranger after three months as when you arrived. I have been in others where members congregate in cliques and admission is as difficult as if it were a secret society. You are regarded, if not with suspicion then with a faint distaste. Not so our mess. Perhaps the first morning, knowing no one, you will take your cup and saucer, pour out coffee or tea, tell the waitress you'd like some porridge, take a seat and begin your meal – all without a word. All the while others chat sociably, discuss the
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morning’s news or last night’s frivolities. The next day perhaps you will say “Good morning” to your neighbour. A day or two later you know the Christian names of some of the members. Within a week you are saying brightly “Good morning, Bill” or “Good morning, Sally” and your initial shyness, if you had any, has dissolved in the general atmosphere of cordiality and good will. For the speed of your entry into the circle will, of course, depend upon your temperament. There is the person who will feel at home in next to no time and adapt himself immediately to any environment; there are others who take a little time to break the ice. But in our mess the most reserved and detached individual will soon be a “live” member of the mess; sometimes, indeed, almost against his will.
In such a mess personalities become clearer and more distinct; and after a while you begin to realize that you live among a fascinating microcosm of society. Each person becomes more of an individual and less a member of the Service. Superficial veneers, some posed, some acquired, some purposely created, are drawn aside, revealing character and personality. Human relationships take on added interest and there is a gentle excitement in the revelation of minds and the interchange of anecdotes and views.
Here is Robin the worker, the man who is invariably the last in for dinner and tea because he has been working at his desk; Robin for ever cheery and charitable, who will always do you a good turn for purely altruistic motives, who will chuckle at his own and others’ jokes, and whose favourite phrase is “You’ve had your time, chum . . .” Everyone is Robin’s chum and he is everybody’s chum – a man who will pay for the first round in a crowd and disappear quietly back to his desk. Such men, you feel, make the world a pleasanter place to live in.
Then there is Wally, the expert at the [italics] double entendre, [/italics] fresh-faced and bright-eyed, of whom elderly and correct churchgoing ladies might say “What a nice boy” and those who know him will chuckle inwardly.
You have “Liz” and “Sally” who will take any amount of leg pulling – and give it – and the next moment will enjoin silence in the room while a Beethoven symphony is played on the air. Liz is our schoolmistress, looks after the library and will organize gramophone recitals for the music lovers.
There is “Sandy,” immaculate and smiling, presiding without fuss over our meetings, and like “Taff” his fellow countryman, an inveterate follower of rugby. And after tea you will see him immersed in a crossword puzzle, probably with “Taff” before the latter, target of many quips, bustles off to the White City, or for a solitary walk.
There is, too, the inevitable “Doc” to fix our appointments at sick quarters or the dental centre: Doc, who is Wally’s rival at the [italics] risqué [/italics] remark, and captain of darts. The football stalwarts are here as well – Harold, tall and muscular, unintentional breaker of feminine hearts and keeper of sports gear – and Les, non-smoking but not teetotal boss of the much maligned G.D.’s, who will never fail to stand by for a duty for you.
Peter will cheer us with satisfactory reports of the mess accounts, and play bridge, cricket and squash with equal facility.
“Gibby” will take apart a wireless set and put it together again as easily as turning a switch.
Our Mess has them all – the graduate, the student, the wit, the philanderer, the semi-mysoginist, the reserved and the outspoken, the bridge fiends and the outdoor enthusiasts. Few want to leave the mess to go to another Station. If they do they often wish they could return, and indeed some do come back, for a party or a visit.
And so, I suppose, although the comforts and amenities are there, subdued and unobtrusive, it is the people in it more than material things, that make our mess a good mess. Now civilian life, with its unpredictable vicissitudes, beckons. Soon I shall be leaving this company of interesting people. I shall remember them and “Our Mess” with pleasure and affection.
178
[Page Break]
[Italics] BRITISH AIRCRAFT :7 [/italics]
The Halifax
[Italics] The seventh of a series of articles on British aircraft written specially for the “Royal Air Force Journal” by the Society of British Aircraft Constructor, Ltd. [/italics]
[photograph]
THE name of Handley Page, Ltd., has been synonymous with the big bomber for more than 30 years. The association dates back to 1914 when the founder of the company (now Sir Frederick Handley Page) began to display an interest in the large aircraft which, with the outbreak of war, grew into a conviction that the big bomber was the true medium for bringing Air Power to bear on the enemy.
Few people at the time shared his conviction, and none his enthusiasm, but he was able to catch the ear of Mr. Winston Churchill, then First Lord of the Admiralty, and to secure from him a contract for a twin-engined bomber larger than any previously contemplated by either the military or the naval authorities of this or any other country. Throughout 1915, day and night, work on the new bomber – named the 0/100 – went forward without pause, and in December of that year the first off the line made its maiden flight.
The 0/100 was followed by an improved version; the 0/400, but even this did not give full expression to Handley Page’s conception of the big bomber. Towards the close of the war he produced the four-engined V/1500 which was expressly designed for bombing of Berlin and other cities deep in the heart of Germany. The V/1500 had a wingspan of 126 ft., a length of 62 ft., and stood 23 ft. high. In flight it was aa majestic as it was impressive and little skill in aircraft recognition was needed to identify it. It made a class of its own. Berlin escaped its blows; the Armistice was signed before the long hours of darkness, which were essential for such an operation, came round again.
Twenty-one years later other Handley Page bombers, with increased vigour and power, began again the work of destruction from which the 0/400s had been withdrawn in 1918. The first of the second generation of H.P. bombers to see active service was the [italics] Hampden; [/italics] the second, the [italics] Halifax [/italics].
When the [italics] Halifax [/italics] first went into service, it could carry a heavier bomb load on the longer ranges than any other bomber then in service. Its basic design had been started in January, 1937, when a layout was begun for a new medium bomber to replace the [italics] Hampden [/italics]. This aircraft was to have been powered with two of the new Rolls-Royce [italics] Vulture [/italics] motors, then in course of development.
In August, 1937, the Air Ministry decided that a likely shortage of [italics] Vultures [/italics] might delay the new bomber and it was accordingly modified to take four [italics] Merlin [/italics] motors. The new bomber was given a bigger span and a longer fuselage, but was otherwise unchanged.
Design work occupied the best part of a year, and the first prototype, L.7244, flew on October 2, 1939, only 22 months after the first of the revised drawings were made. It had four 1,145 h.p. Rolls-Royce [italics] Merlin X [/italics] motors, a loaded weight to 55,000 lbs., and a top speed of about 280 m.p.h
179
[Page Break]
ROYAL AIR FORCE JOURNAL
From the first, the aircraft was right, and no major modification were needed. Production had begun before the two prototypes were finished, and the first production machine flew on October 11, 1940. Deliveries to Bomber Command started on November 15, 1940, and the first [italics] Halifax [/italics] operational flight was made on March 11, 1941, against Le Harve and Kiel.
Between that date and the end of the war, there was built up around the [italics] Halifax [/italics] a series of operational and engineering triumphs which rank high in the history of the Royal Air Force and the British aircraft industry. In all, no fewer than 26 different “Marks” were built and put into service. Some of the changes which distinguished one version from another were slight, but in accordance with Service custom they merited and received a bestowal of a special Mark number. There were 13 distinct types of [italics] Halifax [/italics] bomber, four distinct types of [italics] Halifax [/italics] Transports, three distinct types of [italics] Halifax [/italics] Glider Tugs and Paratroopers, and six different types for Coastal Command and the Meteorological Service.
The 20 principal [italics] Halifaxes [/italics] were the Mk.B.I (Series I,II and III), Mk.B.II (Series I, I Special and IA), Mk.B.III, Mk. B.IV, Mk. B.V (Series I, I Special and IA), Mk B.VI, Mk.B.VII bombers; Mk.C.III. C.VI, C.VII and C.VIII transports; and the Mk. A.III, Mk. A.VII. Mk. A.IX glider tugs and paratroopers. Mark B.I and B.II had Rolls-Royce [italics] Merlin [/italics] engines, the rest had Bristol [italics] Hercules [/italics].
On December 31st, 1945, no fewer than 6,059 [italics] Halifaxes [/italics] of all categories had been built. This feat of production was shared by five different producing centres; (1) Handley Page Ltd., of Cricklewood; (2) English Electric Co., of Preston; (3) London Aircraft Production Group, (which was formed jointly by the London Transport Passenger Board, Chrysler Motors, Ltd., Duple Bodies & Motors, Ltd., Express Motors & Body Works, Ltd., and Park Royal Coachworks, Ltd.); (4) Rootes Securities, Ltd., Speke; and (5) Fairey Aviation Co., Ltd., Stockport. The [italics] Halifaxes [/italics] built up to June, 1944, represented 40 per cent. of all heavy bomber of production in this country.
At peak production, the Halifax Group turned out one complete aircraft every working hour. This involved the making, fitting and inspection of 254,000 parts an hour, (excluding rivets); the inspection and fitting of 2,000 embodiment loan parts and hour, the cutting, forming and fitting of two to three acres of light alloy sheet per hour; the production of three miles of rolled or drawn sections of sheet metal per hour; the cutting, drilling and fitting of five miles of light alloy special extruded sections, the closing of from 600,000 to 700,000 rivets per hour, the fitting of three to four miles of electric cable per hour; and the fitting of one mile of pipes per hour.
The main different forms which the [italics] Halifax [/italics] took is a guide to its versatility. It bore a heavy part of the mighty offensive waged by Bomber Command against industrial Germany; it lent its powerful aid to the Allied cause in the Mediterranean theatre, and was the first British four-engined bomber to operate regularly from bases outside the United Kingdom. It towed the heaviest gliders in the Allied airborne operations, and took over supply running to the resistance movements in Greece, Albania, Yugoslavia and Romania.
As a bomber, the [italics] Halifax [/italics] could survive heavy punishment from flak and fighter shells; control surfaces and engines, wing and tail units would often reveal astonishing damage when examined after a raid. It could be pulled out of steep dives, and subjected to the most violent evasive manoeuvres. It was not an easy prey for night fighters, and in one month [italics] Halifax [/italics] squadrons shot down 45 enemy fighters and damaged many more.
One of the earliest operations in which [italics] Halifaxes [/italics] took part was an attack on the German warship [Italics] Scharnhorst, [/italics] at La Pallice, on July 24, 1941. One of the last was the paralysing offensive against enemy shipping in the Kattegat and Skaggerak which immediately preceded the end of the war in Europe. One Halifax III (“Friday the Thirteenth”) made 128 operational missions in the course of which members of its crew won a V.C., a D.S.O., a D.F.C., and a D.F.M.
180
8014 N545 36,500 4/46 S.C.P. 1/344
[Page Break]
[boxed] TRADE LIST FOR REMUSTERING
BELOW is a list of trades open for remustering, direct, or with training where necessary. The list is up-to-date on going to press (April 1st, 1946), but trade requirements are constantly fluctuating. Record Office memoranda will give the latest position, and will also give details as to eligibility, etc.
PART 1. – AIRMEN
Aircraft Finisher – Group II
Armourer – Group II
Blacksmith and Welder – Group I
Carpenter II – Group II
Chiropodist – Group M
Clerk E.A. – Group IV
Clerk P.A. – Group IV
Clerk G.D. – Group IV
Clerk G.D. Postal – Group IV
Clerk Provisioning – Group IV
Clerk S.D. – Group IV
Cook (a) - Group III
Coppersmith and S.M.W. – Group I
Dental Clerk Orderly – Group M
Dental Mechanic – Group M
Dispenser – Group M
Driver M.T. – Group V
Electrician II (a) – Group II
Equipment Assistant – Group IV
Fire Fighter – Group V
Fabric Worker (a) – Group III
Fitter Marine – Group I
Flight Mechanic A – Group II
Flight Mechanic E – Group II
Flying Control Assistant – Group V
Grinder – Group II
Gunner (a) – Group V
Instrument Repairer II – Group II
Interpreter – Group IV
Laboratory Assistant – Group M
Masseur – Group M
Miller – Group II
Motor Boat Crew – Group III
Musician (a) – Group V
Nursing Orderly (a) – Group M
Optician Orderly – Group M
Photographer (a) – Group II
P.T.I. (a) – Group V
Radiographer – Group M
Radar W/Mechanic – Group I
Radar Operator (b) – Group II
R/T Operator – Group IV
R.A.F. Police (a) – Group V
Safety Equipment Assistant (a) – Group III
Sanitary Assistant – Group M
Telephonist – Group III
Teleprinter Operator – Group IV
Turner – Group II
Vulcaniser (a) – Group V
Wireless Operator – Group II
NOTES: - (a) Open to airmen volunteering for regular engagements.
(b) On completion of training Radar Operators are placed in Group IV, and after 6 months’ satisfactory service are place in Group II.
PART 11. – AIRWOMEN
Administrative – Group IV
Chiropodist – Group M
Clerk G.D. – Group IV
Clerk G.D. (Postal) – Group IV
Clerk E.A. – Group IV
Clerk P.A. – Group IV
Clerk P.S. – Group IV
Clerk Provisioning – Group IV
Cook – Group III
Dispenser – Group M
Equipment Assistant – Group IV
Hairdresser – Group III
Laboratory Assistant – Group M
Masseuse – Group M
Mess Steward – Group V
Nursing Orderly – Group M
Orderly – Group V
Radiographer – Group M
Telephonist – Group III
Teleprinter Operator – Group IV
W.A.A.F. Police – Group V
Waitress – Group V
W.P.T.I. – Group V [/boxed]
[Page Break]
[Image]
Cover printed by Fosh & Cross Ltd., London.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Royal Air Force Journal
Description
An account of the resource
Volume 4, number 5, May 1946, the final edition. The Journal contains information from the Air Ministry, stories from around the world and humour.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Air Ministry
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Printed magazine
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Artwork
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBarrettR1863228-170515-09
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Claire Monk
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
demobilisation
evading
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Master Bomber
mess
Oboe
Pathfinders
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/407/6865/LAnsellHT1893553v1.1.pdf
edfc366bd5e7a30081d45f021fab8420
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ansell, Henry
Henry Ansell
H T Ansell
Description
An account of the resource
28 items. The collection concerns Sergeant Henry Thomas Ansell, DFM (b. 1925, 1893553 Royal Air Force) and contains his logbook, his release book, a school report, two German language documents and several photographs, his medals and other items. Henry Ansell served as a flight engineer with 61 Squadron and 83 Squadron Pathfinders.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Vicki Ansell and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Ansell, HT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harry Thomas Ansell's flying log book for flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
The log book covers the training and operational duties of Flight Engineer Sergeant Harry Thomas Ansell, from 14 April 1944 to 24 May 1945. He trained at RAF Torquay, RAF St Athan, RAF Stockport and was stationed at RAF Wigsley, RAF Syerston, RAF Skellingthorpe and RAF Coningsby. Aircraft flown in were Stirling and Lancaster. He flew 34 operations with 61 Squadron, 15 daylight and 19 night, and 18 night operations with 83 Squadron. Targets in Belgium, France, Germany and Norway were Limoges, Prouville, Vitry, Doullens, Chalindrey, Villeneuve-St-Georges, Caen, Revigny, Courtrai, Kiel, Donges, Saint-Cyr, Lyons, Stuttgart, Cahienes, Joigny-Laroche, Pas de Calais, Bois de Cassan, Saint-Leu-d'Esserent, Secqueville, Châtellerault, Bordeaux, Rüsselsheim, Königsberg, Rollencourt, Brest, Le Havre, Darmstadt, Boulogne, Bremerhaven, Rheydt, Munich, Heilbronn, Glessen, Politz, Merseberg, Brux, Karlsruhe, Ladbergen, Dresden, Rositz, Gravenhorst, Bohlen, Horten Fiord, Molbis and Lutskendorf. His pilot on operations was Flight Lieutenant Inness.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Norway
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Devon
England--Greater Manchester
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Kortrijk
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Caen
France--Calais
France--Chalindrey
France--Châtellerault
France--Creil
France--Doullens
France--Joigny
France--Le Havre
France--Limoges
France--L'Isle-Adam
France--Paris
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Bremerhaven
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Heilbronn
Germany--Hörstel
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Rheydt
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wettin
Norway--Horten
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
Germany--Böhlen
France--Lyon
Russia (Federation)
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAnsellHT1893553v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-06-19
1944-06-20
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-06-25
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-06-29
1944-07-12
1944-07-13
1944-07-14
1944-07-15
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-21
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-27
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-07-31
1944-08-01
1944-08-02
1944-08-05
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-13
1944-08-14
1944-08-26
1944-08-27
1944-08-31
1944-09-05
1944-09-10
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-14
1944-09-18
1944-09-19
1944-09-20
1944-11-26
1944-11-27
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-10
1944-12-21
1944-12-22
1945-01-13
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-06
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-23
1945-02-24
1945-03-20
1945-03-21
1945-04-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944
1945
1654 HCU
61 Squadron
83 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of the Pas de Calais V-1 sites (24/25 June 1944)
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Stockport
RAF Syerston
RAF Torquay
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/459/8211/MNorthGJ173836-160523-13.1.jpg
c65f4359be9d59309c6b69fa3e0cd017
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
North, Geoffrey John
North, G J
North, Johnny
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Geoffrey John 'Johnny' North, DFC, (173836, Royal Air Force) who served as a rear gunner on 428, 76 and 35 Squadrons flying Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He was called up in 1940 from his job as a tailor in Saville Row where he returned after the war. He was shot down on an operation to Duisburg on 21 February 1945. The collection contains his logbook, an account of his shooting down, capture and time as a prisoner of war, including documentation, forced march to another camp in 1945, liberation and repatriation. The collection includes membership documents for Royal Air Force Association, Pathfinders Association and Caterpillar Club as well as personnel documentation, Pathfinder badge correspondence and photographs of crew and squadron as well as other memorabilia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Carole Bishopp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
North, G
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HEADQUARTERS,
PATH FINDER FORCE,
ROYAL AIR FORCE.
4th December, 1944.
To: Flying Officer G.J.North (173836)
[underlined] AWARD OF PATH FINDER FORCE BADGE [/underlined]
You have to-day qualified for the award of the Path Finder Force Badge and are entitled to wear the Badge as long as you remain in the Path Finder Force.
2. You will not be entitled to wear the Badge after you leave the Path Finder Force without a further written certificate from me authorising you to do so.
D C Bennett
Air Vice Marshall, Commanding
Path Finder Force.
(4159) M13466/M 1453 8/44 1000 BGH Gp57/9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Geoffrey North award of path finder force badge
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from Headquarters Pathfinder Force to Flying Officer G J North that he has qualified for the award of the path finder Force badge. Notes that badge can only be worn while he remains in Pathfinder force. Signed by Donald Bennett.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-12-04
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MNorthGJ173836-160523-13
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-12-04
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Andy Hamilton
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten letter
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Pathfinders