2
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270
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/406/7052/PNortonSC1504.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/406/7052/PNortonSC1505.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/406/7052/PNortonSC1506.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wooden box with 104 squadron crest and B-24
Description
An account of the resource
A small wooden box with a 104 Squadron crest, an image of a B-24 and the text 'Flak Ship'. Inside is a typed piece of paper with '1215793 F/Sgt Norton'.
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One wooden box
Language
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eng
Type
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Physical object
Identifier
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PNortonSC1504, PNortonSC1505, PNortonSC1506
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Royal Air Force
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
104 Squadron
arts and crafts
B-24
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/433/7764/PPetrinaA1801.1.jpg
95faf4f02230c3b0d616bd0a7554c009
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/433/7764/APetrinaA180109.1.mp3
7fa314a874860a80433dfca6b7ab1649
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Petrina, Aldo
Aldo Petrina
A Petrina
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Aldo Petrina who recollects his wartime experiences in Capodistria and Varese.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Peter Sciulze e sto per importare il signor Aldo Petrina, siamo a Trieste e oggi è il 9 gennaio 2018. Grazie Aldo per aver concesso questa intervista.
PS: Grazie Peter, sono qua
AP: La tua intervista, la sua intervista diventerà parte dell’International Bomber Command Digital Archive
PS: [coughs] scusa
PS: gestito dall’Università di Lincoln per conto dell’international Bomber Command Centre. Allora Aldo. È inoltre presente la moglie Mariagrazia Sinigo Petrina. Allora Aldo se puoi ricorda - raccontarci il ricordo più antico che hai.
AP: Dunque, io vivevo, la mia famiglia viveva a Capodistria, che è una piccola cittadina che adesso è Slovenia e allora era Italia. Le cose [clears throat], le prime cose che ricordo è una vita tranquilla che poco ha a che fare con la guerra, mio padre non c'era, perchè era partito, era stato richiamato. Mio padre era ufficiale di complemento della marina ed era stato richiamato praticamente nell'anno stesso in cui, io sono nato nel '40 e gli italiani sono entrati in guerra in giugno del '40, quindi mio padre era sparito, era in Grecia. Io ero con la mamma, solo, e passavamo la vita di una piccola cittadina andavamo al bagno mi ricordo d'estate mio nonno mi aveva fatto una barchetta con cui giocavo molto bene. Poi c'avevo tanti miei amichetti, giocavamo lì nella, io abitavo in piazza del Brolo, era una piazza piuttosto grande, con due grandi pozzi, e vicino a uno di questi pozzi c'era una specie di zona giochi per i bambini con una distesa di sabbia e di, io mi ricordo mi divertivo con gli altri amichetti a fare stampi di sabbia e robe di questo genere quindi di, di. E così sono passati i primi anni di guerra insomma, francamente, ogni tanto andavamo a Trieste dai nonni mi ricordo la, mi piaceva molto il tragitto col vaporetto, sul vaporetto era molto divertente, guardavo fuori, insomma era gradevole. E dai nonni si veniva qua, in questa casa qua dove abito. E altri ricordi non, cioè. Il primo ricordo, diciamo, che possa toccare la storia è stato proprio l'8 settembre, cioè l'8 settembre, cioè prima mia mamma sentivevamo la radio, ascoltava la radio, non so se ascoltasse radio Londra, non ho idea ma comunque l'8 settembre del '43, sotto, nello stesso stabile dove cui abitavamo noi c'era un deposito di materiale dell'economato militare italiano. Quindi c'era viveri, vestiario, un po' di tutto. C'eran [interruption]
AP: [coughs] Sì, mi ricordo dell'armistizio, cioè, c'era la gente tutta contenta, è finita la guerra. Funziona? Sì. E, quello che io mi ricordo è che hanno svaligiato, cioè la gente si è buttata, tutto quello che c'era in questo deposito che era cibo e robe varie. E uno di questi che stavano rubando mi ha dato a me un album, una specie di album, con fotografie, ed erano le fotografie di tutti i soldati che facevano parte di quel reparto, c'erano le piccole foto tipo tessera. E dice 'Aldo divertiti va' e io me lo sono preso. Però, cos'è successo, che han cominciato ad arrivare a casa nostra tutte le ragazze, perché molte di loro [clears throat], si erano fatti delle ragazze lì e quelle volevano la fotografia e quindi tutte quanto mi hanno levato, arrivavano e mi strappavano via la fotografia e quindi ci sono rimasto malissimo perchè avevo questo bell'album che io mi divertivo a guardare e alla fine non c'era più niente. Questo è il ricordo dell'armistizio. [laughs] E dopo l'armistizio dopo qualche, dopo un mese circa, questo lo so adesso ma allora, dopo un po' una mattina abbiamo aperto la finestra e abbiamo trovato la piazza piena di carri armati, no non carri armati, mezzi, mezzi, un reparto motorizzato tedesco praticamente, tutto appieno. Avevano aperto i pozzi e si lavavano. Hanno, hanno detto di tenere chiuse tutte le finestre, non volevano le finestre, sono venuti a fare una perquisizione la sera stessa a casa è venuto un tedesco con una lampadina mi ricordo ha guardato in giro ha salutato e se ne è andato via. [clears throat] Dopo potevamo anche circolare, ricordo solo che le signore, c'era mia mamma eran quasi tutte donne eccetera, l'unica cosa che ricordo che dicevano era 'dio come sono belli' [laughs] i tedeschi. Erano abituati con i nostri soldati [laughs] che erano nanerottoli [laughs], poveri, meridionali i tedeschi erano belli, erano biondi, alti, belli, si lavavano quindi erano a torso nudo molto, era ottobre quindi era caldo, ecco quindi le signore erano entusiaste, ecco questo ti dico. Poi ci hanno chiesto di vuotare il pozzo nero, perché dormivano nel nostro atrio, mi ricordo una puzza spaventosa però [laughs] hanno vuotato il pozzo nero. [interruption]
AP: E poi quello che ricordo e che a un certo punto un'amica di mia madre, era di Vipiteno, e sai che, volendo i cittadini italiani che erano dell'Alto Adige potevano optare per andare nella Wehrmacht o SS, lei lì occasionalmente ha incontrato un ufficiale di questi che era venuto, dopo ho saputo era la divisione Prinz Eugen di montagna, quindi era, ecco. Uno di questi era un suo compagno di scuola e ha chiamato mia mamma e dice 'Sandra, Sandra vieni giù. Ti presento un amico'. Questo qua è un signore molto distinto, parlava italiano un po' ma lo parlava bene, a mia madre baciamano, naturalmente un ufficiale tedesco, sai com'è. E poi c’è - avevano, in quel momento c'era la cucina loro la chiamano goulash wagen, no, mi pare cioè ecco. Ha chiamato uno, gli ha detto qualcosa e quello mi ha dato una fetta di pane nero spalmata di burro a me bambino, si vede che avevo l’aria fa - famelica, non lo so, ecco. E lui ha spiegato a mia madre, chiaro e tondo, questo io, non, l’ho saputo ‘signora guardi, sono venuti i partigiani prima hanno portato via un sacco di gente e buttato in foibe. Noi siamo arrivati e adesso faremo la spedizione punitiva, li sistemiamo noi, però non saremo sempre qua. Lei è italiana’ perché mia madre era proprio milanese ‘qui qualcuno parla qualche parola di slavo e se la cava, lei no. Guardi che adesso han buttato in foibe i, il presidente del fo - tutti quelli della Guardia di Finanza e tutti quel del tribunale, che erano italiani. Se tornano lei rischia. Se può filare, fili.’ Tempo, questo succedeva nell’autunno del '4 - in marzo del'44 mia madre ha preso tutti bagagli ed ha portato i mobili qua a Trieste e lei è andata a Varese, i miei nonni hanno detto 'no qua, perché ci sono i bombardamenti' ecco, quindi, la parte di tri - Capodistria finisce qua. Tutto il resto e a Va - una cittadina vicino a Varese, Azzate. Dove però la guerra proprio non si sentiva, almeno credavamo noi. [clears throat] Di notte si, si sentivano passare gli aerei, di giorno anche, tutto quello che vuoi. L'unica cosa che non prevedevamo è che dall'alt - il paesino è sul lago di Varese, dall'altra parte del lago di Varese c'era la fabbrica di aerei, la Macchi e quindi quello era un obbiettivo sensibile ed è stato bombardato quanto vuoi e io dalla terrazza vedevo di tutto, insomma, però senza nessun rischio. Le prime volte mi chiudevano gli occhi dicevano 'no il bambino non deve vedere' poi siccome era ogni giorno [laughs] tutto qua. Quello che ricordo di quel periodo beh, una cosa sicuramente che mia mamma ha ascoltato, questo me lo ricordo, l'ultimo discorso di Mussolini, quello del Lirico sulla radio, mi ricordo di sera mia madre. E dopo ha detto ‘sì ma la voce non è più la sua, era un po’ diversa.’ Radio Londra non so se la ascoltassero. Quello che ricordo bene so - beh anzitutto vedevi gli aeroplani passare, gli aeroplani degli alleati passare sul cielo di giorno ma vedevi la scia come adesso i jet praticamente non vedevi altro. Quello invece che ricordo bene è stato, era inverno, l’ultimo inverno praticamente, il bombardamento di Danzica, abbiamo saputo dopo che andavano a Danzica [laughs] allora non lo sapevamo, però tutta la notte, per due notti sono passati degli aeroplani sopra, molto bassi, sembravano, tremava tutta la casa e mi ricordo che con la candela mia mamma e mia nonna che pregavano, io stavo a letto e mi ricordo che pregavano dalla paura dicendo ‘povera gente, chissà dove vanno? Chissà dove vanno?’ difatti han fatto il danno di Danzica. Questo è. [clears throat] L'altro episodio che ricordo è, questo a Capodistria, che mio pa - l'ultima volta che ho visto mio padre prima della, durante la guerra lui lo abbiamo accompagnato al vaporetto perchè lui andava a Trieste e prendeva il treno e dopo andava giù a Taranto mio padre era, anche si sono finit - incontrati non sapendolo tutti e due ufficiali di marina perché mio padre era. Dopo ti racconterò perché era arrivato a Taranto. E l'ultima volta io lo avevo visto in divisa blu, era divisa blu e allora dopo a Varese mi avevano detto quando tornerà papà sarà vestito di bianco perché era estate lì e invece ci sono rimasto malissimo perché aveva la sahariana [laughs] cachi, quindi e [clears throat] bene. La sahariana cachi è famosa perchè se tu guardi il libro Hitler's, no “Mussolini's Navy” un libro inglese uscito da poco, quando descrive le divise c'è la foto di mio padre con la Sahariana perché gliel'ho data io all'autore. O l'altra cosa che volevo dirti era, spetta, altri ricordi di. Meh adesso fammi qualche domanda tu.
PS: Tu hai visto gli aerei che bombardavano Danzica? Che erano diretti a Danzica?
AP: Non gli ho visti perché era di notte. Non Danzica era Dresda. Il famoso bomb - Dresda l’hanno rasa al suolo praticamente, non gli ho visto però di notte, non sono riuscito ancora adesso a capire da dove venissero, credo da aeroporti dell’Italia meridionale perché era, era già dopo, il, era, succedeva nel febbraio credo del ‘45 quindi. Cioè di notte, passavano, quindi erano inglesi chiaramente, passavano di notte e tremava tu - tutta la casa, questo sì, sicuramente. Ho visto poi gli americani, gli aerei americani che passavano di giorno quelli li vedevi anche se erano lenti [?] ecco. [clears throat] L’unico aereo che ho visto bene, gli aerei, erano nell’aeroporto di Venegono degli aerei da caccia, credo che fossero della Repubblica Sociale o tedeschi non lo so, ricordo solo che andavamo con mia nonna a prendere il latte a Venegono e che ho visto questi aerei e sono rimasto molto male, molto male, molto male perché io avevo dei giocattoli degli aerei eran - bell’aereo rosso col, tedesco, con le svastiche, era meraviglioso ma rosso e quelli erano grigi, neri, erano una schifezza, quindi erano [laughs] [clears throat] ero rimasto molto male e dopo abbiamo visto il famoso bombardiere americano abbattuto, era, era, non era un B17 era quegli altri, quelli fatti, cos’era, un, un quadrimotore grande, poteva essere un Liberator mi pare che li chiamavano, quelli che eran, un quadr - era come arenato su una collina fa conto, era chiaro bianco, non si poteva avvicinarsi e l’unica cosa che ricordo che c’era un certo signor Magister che era il capo era ‘la Repubblica Sociale, il fasci - il quale si vantava, si vantava, ‘abbattuto, la contraerea’ tutti eravam contenti, bene gliele abbiamo date una buona volta, invece eh. Fino a che il giorno dopo è comparso su un tramezzino su un giornale eh che lo avevano tirato giù gli svizzeri [laughs] [clears throat] lo aveva tirato giù la contraerea svizzera, quando sparava la contraerea svizzera ti, cioè si illuminava tutto il cielo, cioè noi avevamo davanti dei monti di prealpi e dietro tu vedevi tutto illuminato, era la contraerea svizzera che reagiva, ferocemente, quindi erano.
MSP: Quindi dietro Campo dei Fiori?
AP: Sì, dietro a Campo dei Fiori. Mentre invece quando bombardavano milano vedevamo tutto rosso dalla parte di Milano che era dall’altra parte. Ma questo ricordo della contraerea svizzera era bellissimo, dalla terrazza era uno spettacolo. E altro, non ricordo di, di. Sì i bombardamenti del, del [clears throat] dello stabilimento di aerei, la fabbrica della aeroplani.
PS: Sì, puoi raccontarmi un po’ di più di questo bombardamento del, della fabbrica.
AP: Beh [clears throat] praticamente tu vedevi le bombe, cioè non vedevi le bombe ma vedevi improvvisamente dei lampi, dei lampi, poi un gran fumo, fumo, fumo, fumo, spariva tutto. Cioè non continuavi a vedere fiamme come adesso quando bombardano perché non alzava temperatura probabilmente adesso l’ho capito, vedevi dei lampi e poi gran fumo, fumo, fumo e la fabbrica che si copriva di fumo. Di notte vedevi anche più fiamme e qualcosa del genere ecco e inv - quello che mi ricordo netto che non sapevamo che cosa fosse e che una volta hanno, dopo, questo lo saputo dopo, gli hanno colpiti di notte e c’era dentro tutto il turno di notte degli operai e ci son stati, c’è stato un massacro e allora hanno chiesto aiuto per portarli in ospedale a Milano perchè a Varese era già pieno alla Croce Rossa svizzera e l’ho sentito per la prima volta gli svizzeri avevano il bitonale hai presente? Quel suono doppio per, l’effetto doppler, no? Cioe fa - cioè la nota bassa e la nota alta, ecco. Non sapevamo cosa fosse ‘cos’è sta roba?’ era come l’allarme fai conto, ma, e dopo abbiamo saputo era la Croce Rossa svizzera che aveva mandato, perché è stato un disastro sai, [unclear] un centottanta, una roba del genere. [clears throat] E dopo la guerra mi ricordo i partigiani, che li ho visti che no - mia mamma non voleva che andassi, perchè avevamo la casa che dava su due strade, su due provinciali praticamente e mia mamma siccome c’era in giro ancora partigiani che sparavano di notte e sentivi raffiche di mitra, di tutto, m’ha detto, non voleva che io bambino andassi, a guardare fuori, e io naturalmente cosa facevo io? Andavo a guardare. Sono andato sulla strada che dava verso l’autostrada verso Milano e c’era un muretto, fai conto alto così e la raminata e io stavo a lì a vedere e sono passati i partigiani. Ecco mi ricordo un camion, carico di gente che cantav - con scritte ‘viva’ non, non sapevo leggere quindi non sapevo niente cosa fossero. Quello che ho visto erano gran bandiere rosse e gran cantavano, avevano un’aria un po’ bevuta [laughs] effettivamente e questo camion. E poi c’è il ricordo degli alleati quando sono arrivati, è venuta una signora. Beh un ricordo pare che avessero visto Mussolini con, ma quello è, è non è un racconto, cioè, te lo dico in dialetto c’era tanta gente lì eravamo fermi in una negozietto di commestibili, in una posteria fai conto da, di campagna è venuta una donna e sono passate delle auto nere e una donna io mi ricordo le frasi in dialetto che diceva ‘alelù, alelù, alè il crapun con la petascia’ cioè erano, era un auto con un uomo e una donna ma non sono sicuro che fossero ne Mussolini
MSP: [laughs]
AP: E anche se fossero stati non gli avrei visti perchè erano tutti davanti e io ero sotto, ecco. Quello che invece ho visto e sono [unclear] ‘sciura Sandra, sciura Sandra, ghi ne aleat ’ cioè, ci sono gli alleati e allora siamo corsi in questo piccola posteria e li c’era una jeep che non avevo mai visto, una strana auto verde coi, coi [unclear] io avevo visto le aute tedesche le guardavo con gli occhi [unclear] sai, Kübelwagen no? Quelle scu - ecco, no? Che erano basse, questa qua [unclear] e davano cioccolata descri - cioccolata e quello che mi ha impressionato tanto è che quello che dava la cioccolata era nero, era un negro. Però insospettito con sto qua. Poi, la cosa che mi ha traumatizzato è che come ha dato la cioccolata ho visto che aveva la mano di un colore sopra e un colore sotto.
MSP: [laughs]
AP: Mamma mia cos’è sta roba. M’ha dato la cioccolata e mia mamma mi diceva ‘mangia’ e io non volevo mangiare dicevo sto qua mi darà [unclear] quel tipo lì strano, mia mamma ha insistito e l’ho mangiata e insomma, tra me e me dopo mentre mangiavo mi dicevo ‘forse è finita la guerra’ [laughs]. Ecco, questo è il ricordo, poi. Poi ne - però non fame, assolutamente né a Capodistria che avevamo la donna che veniva dalle campagne e ci portava di tutto e no a Varese perché mia nonna aveva un terreno molto grande con un colono che [clears throat] coltivava il terreno e ci dava a noi poi dopo sono entrati in, hanno litigato perchè il colono a un certo punto co - co - ci dava molto poco e fregava un sacco di roba, perché andava in una piccola stazione vicino a, dove venivano da Milano quelli della borsa nera e lui vendeva i prodotti agricoli a prezzi ottimi, quindi abbiamo dovuto cacciarlo e prendere un altro colono che, eh. Però non ci mancava niente, fame no. L’unica fame che ho visto un po’ è stata al ritorno a Trieste, quando siamo tornati perché mio padre è tornato dalla guerra, mio padre è stato dato per morto, poi [laughs] Ti racconto? Vado avanti? Dunque mio padre era a Cefalonia, a Argostoli. A Cefalonia tu sai cosa è successo i tedeschi eh, ecco. Hanno preso tutti gli italiani, gli, gli ufficiali e li hanno fucilati eccetera, non la marina, perchè [laughs] la marina aveva i MAS, mio padre era comandante, c’erano due, erano due MAS di stanza lì con un ufficiale di carriera che era il comandante del reparto, e mio padre comandava l’altro MAS, la sera dell’8 settembre, hanno, c’era un tedesco solo che insieme con loro che collaborava e gli han detto ‘senti, tu stai buono’ e l’hanno legato e lui ha detto ‘legatemi bene perchè s - dovrò spiegare a quelli della Gestapo perché mi avete catturato e io non ho fatto niente’, e ‘noi ti leghiamo bene’, [clears throat] hanno lasciato in funzione l’impianto, il gruppo elettrogeno e alla chetichella si sono imbarcati, hanno tagliato gli ormeggi addirittura, tutto quanto sono partiti col motore al minimo perché nessuno sentisse e la mattina dopo erano a Brindisi. E quindi ha salvato la pelle, lui è tutti quelli della marina, però, però il problema era che lui il 9 settembre doveva venire in licenza a Trieste e allora, come poteva venire? O veniva con un vaporetto, o veniva con la tradotta italiana, ma, lui pranzava, mio padre parlava tedesco perché aveva fatto le scuole in Austria, con un ufficiale tedesco e l’ufficiale tedesco gli aveva detto ‘no guarda lascia perdere la tradotta italiana perché i partigiani jugoslavi in genere le bloccano e mettono al muro tutti gli ufficiali, ti do un biglietto e vai con la tradotta tedesca. Noi abbiamo le SS sui, sui predellini e distruggono qualunque forma di vita’ cioè chiunque si avvicini [laughs] alla ferrovia loro sparano e ammazzano senza tanti complimenti ‘con quella ti portiamo a Lubiana, Laibach e da Lubiana tu vai a Trieste in qualche maniera’. Quindi l’ufficiale tedesco ha detto che lui era, se era sul treno tedesco era in campo di concentramento. La tradotta italiana è stata assalita dai partigiani jugoslavi che hanno massacrato tutto e il vaporetto era comandato da un suo cugino è, il vaporetto è stato mitragliato è andato a fondo e lui non era fra i naufraghi. Era arrivata la, la, la comunicazione a mia mamma relativa come in inglese le chiamano ‘missing in action’, no?
MSP: [unclear]
AP: Cioè, finito, disperso. Lui era a Brindisi, da Brindisi è andato a Napoli, a Napoli l’hanno gli hanno dato lì, c’era un distaccamento della marina a Meta di Sorrento e lì li hanno messi in un convento di suore, le suore stavano morendo letteralmente di fame e erano ben contenti di avere la marina perché la marina aveva cibo, loro cucinavano e mio padre mangiava, beveva era contento e felice, così è stato. Ha cercato di avvertirci con una lettera, tramite la Croce Rossa svizzera. Solo che mia madre e - era convinta di essere vedova dal ‘43 e la lettera della Croce Rossa credo che sia arrivata nel ‘45 finalmente, dove lui diceva che era a Napoli, stava bene, non c’erano pericoli, ecco. Quindi questa è la, è la, tutti erano convinti che fosse morto e invece lui stava benissimo, ma nessun sapeva che eran scappati a Brindisi. Tra cui, particolare, avevano tenuto a bordo del MAS avevano spogliato in mutande il tedesco e avevano tenuto a bordo del MAS la divisa del tedesco. Perché non sapevano cosa trovavano dall’altra parte in Italia e dicono se ci accorgiamo che ci sono tedeschi vestiamo Petrina da tedesco sa parlare italiano e ‘diciamo che si ma dobbiamo andare da un’altra parte’ e andiamo a Malta [laughs]. Ecco. Quindi lui era pronto a vestirsi con l’abito del tedesco e far finta di essere tedesco, ecco, tutto qua. Bandiera l’avevano per cui insomma. E invece sono arrivati e hanno visto bandiera italiana e c’è del re no, quindi, felici e contenti. Questo è altre storie del periodo dopoguerra
PS: Io adesso volevo tornare un attimo al, al tempo che tu hai trascorso a Varese.
AP: Sì
PS: Provincia di Varese
AP: Provincia di Varese, sì.
PS: Quindi raccontami un po’ della tua vita di ogni giorno e anche il nome del, del paese
AP: Azzate, Azzate il posto beh, era piuttosto gradevole perché avevamo un grande, fa conto come un grande parco dove c’erano un sacco di cose da mangiare perché praticamente ho passato lì due estati, no? L’estate del ‘44 e poi metà di quella del ‘45 e mio - siccome, sì c’era cibo ma non proprio tanto, no? Io ricordo che tutta l’estate mi hanno dato uova col pomodoro, oppure riso con pomodoro. L’inverno è stato il più duro perché c’eran - mi hanno dato castagnaccio, non mi piacevano perchè lo facevano anche con le castagne marce quindi no - non era buono. E però era un gran divertimento perché io la mattina uscivo di casa, in questo gia - nel giardino eh non uscivo lì e facevo, facevo il giro di tutte le piante che sapevo dove si poteva mangiare cioè, c’erano i lamponi, c’erano le fragole, c’erano le ciliegie, c’erano le pere, le mele e io davo la caccia a tutte queste cose me le mangiavo, finché in autunno c’era l’uva, insomma, quindi era piuttosto gradevole mi ricordo. Ogni tanto veniva qualche altro bambinetto con cui giocavo, con cui mi divertivo allora il gio - specificando che per i bambini, maschi, gli unici giocattoli erano armi eh, non è come adesso che tu vedi solo puppolotti e robe strane [laughs] giocattoli in plastica, no, no, no. Io avevo solo fucili, bellissimo un, come un 91 una [unclear] ma piccolo, era quello dei Balilla fai conto o qualcosa del genere, pistole ce - di tutto, l’unica cosa che mi avevano regalato era un elmetto, che era l’elmetto italiano, ma io sognavo l’elmetto tedesco quindi ma, que - era piccolino ma insomma, ma io ho detto a mia mamma ‘ma io voglio quello col gradino’ no, non c’era, va be bon. Ma perché avevo già capito che erano quelli buoni quelli [laughs] mentre quegli altri, ecco. Quindi solo giocattoli di questo tipo o piccoli aeroplani [background noises] infatti quello rosso che io sognavo che mi sono accorto che non anda - [unclear] aeroplani e, ma comunque, diciamo che me la passavo molto bene ecco. Non mancava il cibo, ti ripeto facevo il giro ogni giorno a raccogliere il cibo. L’unica cosa a cui dovevo stare attento [clears throat] è che mia nonna aveva delle galline ma aveva anche dei tacchini e i tacchini erano alti come me praticamente o poco meno e uno, erano aggressivi e mi correvano addietro, non era simpatico. Una volta mi ero messo, mi ricordo ero seduto mi ero messo delle ciliegie così sulle orecchie, no? Ed ero girato e uno non è arrivato a beccarmi qua per beccarmi la ciliegia? Un tacchino, quindi no -
MSP: [laughs]
AP: ma niente di, cioè della guerra non. Bon, tutto quello che ho visto te l’ho detto, ecco no, non di più. Quindi me la passavo bene [unclear], dopo qua a Trieste sono andato subito alla scuola, perchè prima la scuola, sì perchè la scuola era bombardata e dopo un episodio simpatico è stato che nel ‘4 - seconda, quindi nel ‘47 a un certo punto avevamo la scuola in via San Giorgio, sai dove c’è il nautico lì, ecco. È arrivato il maestro col direttore e c’ha detto che tutti i bambini, dunque i più grandi dovevano portare in spalla il banco, i più piccoli, io ero tra i più piccoli, la sedia in testa e portarsi dietro cuore, no pinocchio, pinocchio, bon. E allora tutti quanti, da via San Giorgio c’hanno fatto andare a piedi, su per viale Terza Armata, dopo, e siamo andati alla scuola De Amicis in via Combi, che era stata bombardata ma era stata restaurata e dove gli inglesi volevano fare, ospedale militare e noi siamo arrivati dentro prima che arrivassero gli inglesi, ci hanno fatto sedere, ci hanno messo davanti il libro, eravamo tutti lì e sono arrivati gli inglesi. Io mi ricordo ancora adesso è arrivato un ufficiale inglese, guarda ai presente David Niven, preciso. Il cappello con quella fascia rossa, vestito eh, pantaloni corti e il, il bastoncino e arrivato, ha - il maestro ha riverito, eran tutte le, ha fatto il giro, ci guardava, ha girato una pagina, due, sai gli inglesi molto signorili, sempre col sorrisetto e poi se ne è andato via, eh, hanno accettato il fatto compiuto e hanno fatto l’ospedale militare qua al posto del, Da Vinci. [clears throat] E quindi è stato un’occupazione, insomma, [coughs] infatti siamo rimasti nella scuola dopo. Ma questo episodio me lo ricordo perché era una fatica portarsi in testa, il cartellin - Questo il dopoguerra.
PS: Volevo dir - volevo tornare un attimo al periodo di Varese
AP: Sì
PS: Come, come si viveva il tempo del fascismo lì?
AP: Era Repubblica Sociale, sì. Era Repubblica Sociale ma era abbastanza tranquillo, sì ogni tanto c’erano i repubblichini, li vedevamo, passavano, c’era ogni tanto, io mi ricordo que - ogni tanto passava qualche tedesco col sidecar, sidecar, tutto impolverato, tutto sporco, so che entravano dentro lì e bevevano una gazzosa qualcosa, non pagavano [laughs] e andava via ecco questo mi ricordo. E del fascismo io me ne ricordo anche a Capodistria cioè, la, l’ultima befana sarà stato credo nel ‘44, no? Sì, in gennaio del ‘44, eravamo ancora lì siamo andati via in marzo e c’era - davano, la befana fascista, davano regali ai bambini e mi hanno portato in questa, ero impaurito perché erano tutti vestiti di nero, sai com’erano i fascisti c’erano tutti questi, tutti vestiti di nero con aria sempre
MSP: truce
AP: erano fascisti, ecco, sì aggressiva ecco. E c’era per giunta una specie di cartone con un lupo di Cappuccetto Rosso e insomma sta roba non mi andava molto bene so che piangevo, non volevo, ma poi mi hanno dato il regalo. E i fascisti, i fascisti della, tu mi chiedi dei fascisti della Repubblica Sociale, sì, io li ho visti perchè siamo andati a trovare da Varese una zia, la zia Nestina a Milano. [clears throat] Siamo stati ospiti della zia per una notte e alla mattina c’era un gran trambusto, non capivamo cosa fosse sulle scale, ed erano tutte le signore che avevano preparato un sacco di cibo, quello che c’era panini, bevande, eccetera. E una signora ci, ‘vieni, vieni con noi andiamo a trovare i ragazzi della contraerea’, sul tetto, siamo andati sù, sù a piedi, non con l’ascensore, sù, sù a piedi e sul tetto c’erano dei cannoni, delle mitragliatrici, qualcosa e c’erano quelli della, i repubblichini della Repubblica Sociale, mi ricordo che erano dei tipi, di, tipi di, noi diciamo smafari qua [laughs] tipi di smafari spaventosi che stavano stravaccati, quello che mi ricordo erano gli stivali perché, perché erano stati svegli tutta la notte, no? Erano stravaccati, che aspettavano [emphasis] ‘aah signora’, e magnavano, bevevano felici e loro portavano la colazione a questi ragazzi del, e mi ricordo perfettamente i repubblichini cosiddetti, col basco dei tipi di [laughs] poco raccomandabili, e faccio vabbè [caughs] sul tetto eh, proprio sul tetto della casa, era tetto piano, no? E avevano fatto, c’erano dei pian - non mi ricordo, so che c’erano i cannoni, ma no, no - non è che gli ho - guardavo più il cibo cercando di [laughs] ero più attratto dalle cibarie, c’erano biscotti, roba buona insomma, ecco. Non ti so dire cosa avessero, mi ricordo [unclear] le robe che mi ricordo erano le scarpe di questi, pesanti, erano stravaccati. A proposito di fascisti. E a Azzate di fascisti c’era solo il podestà, questo qua, quello che si vantava dell’aereo e pochi, perchè era un paesino, non c’era niente.
PS: Questo dae - aereo dove era stato abbattuto? Cioé dove si trovava il relitto dell’aereo?
AP: Si trovava a metà strada tra Azzate e Vene - no, non Venegon, Azzate e Daverio, a metà tra Azzate e Daverio, ed era, fai conto, adagiato su un, come su una collina, come se avesse cercato di, di atterrare e si era fermato su una collina, ma in buone condizioni, non ti so dire i piloti o la roba dove fossero questi, non si sa, nessuno me lo ha detto, se erano morti. Ma probabilmente erano, probabilmente, saran scappati perché lì era pieno di partigiani e li avranno aiutati i partigiani ad andare in Svizzera, no? Un modo, cioè i partigiani io, perchè bastava, c’erano dei valichi dove arrivavi in Svizzera durante tutto il
MSP: a piedi
AP: periodo della guerra. Sì a piedi, sì, sì. Quindi, quelli eran spariti chiaramente. Beh no, non, non pareva molto danneggiato non, era color bianco - chiaro, beige, ma non si poteva andar vicini. C’erano solo quelli lì appunto della, tutti vestiti di nero, i soliti fascisti, che facevano gran vanto dell’abbattimento, tutto qua.
PS: Ed era un aereo americano?
AP: Americano, americano. Liber -. Cioè, un quadrimotore, quelli fatti a San Diego, adesso non mi viene il, no, no i B17, B24 poteva essere, sì. No quelli eran bimotori, quei grossi quadrimotori ad ala alta fai conto. Dopo l - dopo li ho riconosciuti da, da, da adulto ma sul momento… che non eran quelli con la, eran, ecco per darti un’idea, li ho riconosciuti dal mio ricordo, perchè avevano la coda, non era la coda singola ma era la coda doppia. Quindi erano, aveva quattro motori e la coda doppia, quindi dopo ho capito che erano quell’altro tipo di bombardieri, adesso non so dirti cosa fossero perché non è che sia un esperto di aerei.
PS: E puoi raccontarmi qualcosa di più del, dei partigiani?
AP: Dei partigiani, eh dei partigiani, ti ripeto, si sapeva che c’erano, sentivi di notte raffiche di mitra perché s - se davano la caccia ai fascisti, non si sapeva manco chi era che dava la caccia gli uni agli altri. Quello che era un incubo e, e non era tanto nostro, quanto delle case dei contadini dove avevano cibo, salami, formaggio, cioè depositi di - perchè i partigiani arrivavano e requisivano, no? Portavano via. Requisivano anche i tedeschi, ma i tedeschi requisivano e pagavano in, cosa c’era? Marchi d’occupazione, qualcosa del genere, so che pagavano, i tedeschi pagavano, anche se non serviva e niente quei soldi però ufficialmente pagavano. I partigiani invece requisivano e buonanotte ecco, e quindi erano temuti perché portavano via soprattutto proteine, salami, carne, tutto quello che c’era questo e quindi sentivo grand lamentele, tutti si lamentavano di questo e, e dopo agua - perché, praticamente, lì i tedeschi sono rimasti fino all’ultimo giorno, non, non, non è che, cioè, anzi do - dopo avevamo visto le colonne che andavano su in Germania di tedeschi eh, senza armi ma completamente col camion, tutti organizzati, in ordine, e quindi niente, e quindi i partigiani son venuti fuori all’ultimo giorno, prima se mettevan fuori il naso facevano una brutta fine, ecco. Di fatti ho visto quel famoso camion. Mia mamma aveva paura perché loro questi camion con ogni i partigiani arrivavano e, e molte volte sparavano in aria, sai come adesso vedi quelli di Gheddafi, ecco che sparavano in aria ‘ceva ‘guerra vinta’, ecco, e quindi volavano pallottole, perciò mia mamma mi aveva detto ‘sta - stai lontano dal-’
MSP: [unclear]
AP: invece io li ho visti, allora li ho visti arrivano con sti camion, camion scalcinati, sporchi, insomma poveri. Guerra, ecco. Ma contatti coi partigiani non, non ne abbiamo mai visti. Sapevamo che i contadini eran fuori di sé, anzi, molte volte non volevano darti la rob - cioè, ‘sono arrivati i partigiani ci han fregato tutto il latte, stanotte, sono arrivati i partigiani, ci han portato via tutto’ e invece, ‘e allora costa di più quello che ti diamo’, no? Mah, bisogna vedere se era vero o meno.
MSP: Business is business [laught]
AP: Si appunto. Quindi diciamo che di lotta partigiana non ho visto niente, ho visto solo che si approvvigionavano, questo sì.
PS: E tu avevi anche detto che vivevate in un vagamento di Milano
AP: Sì [coughs]
PS: Ti ricordi qualche episodio in particolare, cioè, le emozioni, qualche emozione?
AP: Beh, beh, sì, mia mamma è vero, eran tutti preoccupati perché vivevamo là per, per un certo periodo, stavan tutta la - tutta la famiglia di, di mia mamma era - e mia mamma erano di Milano, la casa di Azzate era un casa di campagna, ma loro avevan l’appartamento a Milano e, e l’appa - la casa di campagna. Quindi lì c’era tutte le cugine, tutte. C’era anche mia zia, sorella di mia mamma, ma è andata via dopo i primi bombardamenti, nel ‘43, perché gli hanno, gli han - gli han distrutto la casa, praticamente, è crollata la casa e abbiamo ancora noi qualche, qualche mobile che abbiamo recuperato. Queste poltrone esatto, che abbiam dovuto cambiare perché eran di pelle ma eran tutte macchiata perché erano rimasta a mezza e pioveva dentro nella casa. Mia zia povera dopo ha perso anche l’altra casa di Fossombrone, era giù in provincia di, di Pesaro, perché lì è passata la guerra e gli alleati han fatto saltare la casa che era la prima del, sulla strada Flaminia e quindi ci ha rimesso due case mia zia [laughs], completamente.
PS: Ah quindi è stata fatta saltare?
AP: Eh sì, perché questa cittadina, Fossombrone, è una cittadina come quasi tutte le cittadine costruite lungo le vie consolari ro - e le ex via consolari ro - cioè, la via consolare passava per il centro della cittadina, la cittadina era costruita ai lati. La casa di mio zio, cioè il marito di mia zia, era la prima e allora i tedeschi per bloccare la circolazione han fatto saltare la prima e l’ultima.
MSP: Mh
AP: E quindi tutta la casa è crollata, lui era scappato in una casa colonica, mio zio, ed era col binocolo che guardava cosa succede e ha visto improvvisamente tutta una parete lucida, era quella delle stampe, cioè han fatto cascar la casa perché guarda queste tutta riflette il sole sono le stampe della casa. Dopo lui l’ha restaurata negli anni dopo l’ha ereditata e l’ho venduta io e adesso [cought] ci son stato là parecchie volte, mezza casa era ancora un po’ poco abitabile, ma insomma. E lei ci ha rimesso l’appartamento di Milano e quindi mia madre erano preoccupati perché sapevano che [unclear] cioè tu vedevi praticamente di notte pe - sai era notte di campagna, uno in campagna e due di quegli anni non eran come le notti di oggi che sono luminose, cioè, di notte era notte ed era notte, vedevi le stelle e basta, niente di più, no? E quindi, se bombardavano Milano vedevi una specie di alone rosa, giallo rosa, ecco, perché gli incendi, perché buttavano soprattutto bombe incendiarie. Di fatti mi ricordo che una delle zie di mia mamma, la zia Ada, no? Stava in Via Castel Morrone a Milano, e si è trovata davanti un, un, un pilot - cioè, un aereo americano è venuto giù, un parac - uno col paracadute è venuto e lei aveva paura, poveretta che, perché era zoppa, non poteva scappare e quindi era rimasta a casa.
MSP: [cought]
AP: Nonostante il bombardamento, la casa vicina bruciava, la casa sua no, ma lei ha sentito strani rumori e si è trovata davanti a un pilota americano zopp - che non poteva camminare come lei perché aveva spaccato una gamba, un paracadutista, ecco. E raccontava sempre questo episodio, che poi il portinaio ha chiamato la polizia. [cought] Quindi Milano l’han bombardata pesantemente
MSP: [cought] [unclear]
AP: Soprattutto con spezzoni incendiari, quindi bruciava, bruciava, bruciava. Come Londra, come anche là han buttato anche incendiarie. Questo era il ricordo, però non, diciamo, ho visto un alone, ecco, niente di pi - si sapeva che bombardavano Milano.
PS: Quindi se ne parlava anche a casa?
AP: Sì, si si si, si si si, si si si. E sapevamo anche dai giornali che avevano bombardato Trieste, quindi mia mamma si preoccupava per i nomi.
MSP: [cought]
AP: Qui, di fatti, tieni conto che il seminario qua era sparito, c’era soltanto il, io quando son tornato nel ‘45 il seminario qua era totalmente vuoto, questo grande edificio. Questa casa qua, questa gialla qua era tutta completam - metà casa era distrutta, tu - tutta la parte esterna verso Via Besenghi era distrutta e una casa nell’altro angolo era sparita completamente. Io c’ho le foto della casa prima e dopo l’han costru - , l’han ricostruita nel ‘47. Casa nostra, cioè, ha preso una, e, degli sp - cioè pezzi del, della casa, della casa vicina di quella lì d’angolo sul, sul nostro tetto e ancora io ho dovuto far puntellare il tetto negli anni, quando è stato? Sì nel 2000 ci siamo accorti, c’era il tetto, e allora am - han - l’han sollevata c’eran dei, dei service, son venuti, erano abituati perché loro avevano avuto la guerra, mi hanno messo un crick per carri armati che ha so - sostenuto il tetto finché loro cambiavano il pezzo di trava, quindi, e poi lu - tutta la, qua la laminata che c’è davanti ha dei fori dentro, perché uno degli ultimi giorni di guerra, io non ero qua eh, mia nonna era in giardino, gli slavi stavano venendo su da Via Besenghi, dal porto praticamente, e i tedeschi dal San Luigi sparavano, e un proiettile di cannone, è passata una granata tra le due case, qua di fianco e ha distrutto quel muro di quelle case qua e le schegge sono arrivate qui. [coughs] E adesso questo non c’entra coi miei ricordi, ma ti racconto un episodio divertente perché vale la pena. Noi abbiamo un pozzo, in fondo al giardino, che ha acqua perenne perché è una risorgiva probabilmente, dal Carso, era la ragione per cui mio nonno ha comprato la casa, perché mio nonno veniva da Lussino dove c’eran solo cisterne e si moriva di tifo perché bastava, il pozzo, l’ha comprato. Però durante l - gli u - l’ultimo anno di guerra ogni tanto l’acqua mancava perché i bombardamenti, e allora bisognava, mio nonno, e cioè, ci hanno obbligato a permettere il rifornimento d’acqua da parte della gente, dei vicini. C’è un corridoio qua, cioè, io c’ho un portone ma qua c’è un’altra porta, portone sul giardino, e la gente faceva la fila per e, tutte le donne erano in fila, per prendere l’acqua, ecco. E allora, però è, era difficile metterli in ordine, e allora mio nonno è andato qua dalla caserma dove c’erano i tedeschi e ha detto ‘ma, ma datemi qualcuno che le tenga in ordine’ dice ‘no, non necessario, lo fai tu’, gli han messo il bracciale con la svastica e lui li teneva tè - e lui faceva il prepotente, faceva passare le più belle dicendo che erano in cinte e le altre lo maledivano [coughs] dicevano ‘dannato vecchio mm mm’ bon. Dopo di che
MSP: [laughs]
AP: Eh, dopo di che tedeschi è finito, finito tutto e da quassù arrivavano gli slavi, c’era una povera donnetta sciava che stava la la neh, la quale voleva contattarli ma non aveva il coraggio eccetera e mio nonno il coraggio se l’è fatto venire subito e corse in corso ‘brate voi fratello mio nee’ ha spiegato che lui aveva un pozzo e che riforniva tutti, son venuti gli slavi qua si sono riforniti al pozzo, poi gli han dato il bracciale con la stella rossa ed era di nuovo lui. [laught] E le donne erano inferocite ‘ma come de novo quel vecia?’ e mio nonno de novo le metteva in fila. E così è durato per tutto il periodo finché sono arrivati gli alleati e siccome mio nonno era il commissario di Bold [?] e parlava tedesco e, e, e, e inglese e anche spagnolo perché andava giù, ecco, e allora lui ha trovato gli alleati e gli alleati gli hanno dato l - di nuovo il boh, che era con su scritto, o gua - F F T T no aspetta, sì.
MSP: G M forse?
AP: T L T F T T, sì
MSP: Ah T L T
AP: Trieste Free Territory, e, e, ecco. Free?
PS: Free Territory of Trieste
AP: Free Trieste Territory! Free Trieste Territory, e, e, ha continuato finché finalmente han dato l’acqua eccetera, ma questo me l’hanno raccontato i vicini di casa, la signora era [unclear] che non ne potevano più di Petrina che le teneva a bada e come al solito faceva passare davanti le più belle e le più giovani [cought] e invece le lasciava dietro col secchio. [laught] Ma questo non è un ricordo mio perché io non ero qua.
PS: Tu quando poi sei venuto a, a Trieste?
AP: Nell’agosto del ‘45. Ricordo benissimo abbiamo fatto, questo è stato interessante, un viaggio in treno da Varese a Milano. E da Milano mi ricordo la stazione di Milano completamente, cioè tutti, non sei stato a Milano in stazione mai? È una stazione molto moderna, e ha una grande volta a vetri su, tutti i vetri eran tutti rotti, era tutto spaccato, tutto rotto, non c’era più niente, era un disastro, e anche i, i binari, il treno andava a passo d’uomo perché gran parte dei binari eran distrutti. Siamo partiti da Milano, siam passati e abbiamo visto il disastro, cioè, Verona era completamente, la stazione di Verona era, un, tutte le stazioni di Verona, Vicenza, in cui siam passati, eran disastri. Mi ricordo che ero molto impressionato perché siam passati su un fiume e, visibile c’era un altro ponte con una ferrovia praticamente che era, era, e, c’era un treno sul ponte che era rimasto sul ponte e il ponte era crollato c’eran dei - un vagone che penzolava quindi, e poi mi ricordo sugli altri ponti che eran distrutti, si passava a passo d’uomo.
MSP: A passo d’uomo
AP: Perché erano tutti in legno i ponti. Ricostruiti, e quindi si passava a passo d’uomo, a passo d’uomo. E così siamo arrivati a Venezia. A Venezia abbiamo dormito una notte e dopo non c’era più treno per Trieste allora mi ricordo mio padre ha trovato un furgoncino, un camion, che, pagato, ci ha portato. [coughs] Mi ricordo che ci siamo fermati a Monfalcone e c’era una sola luce, quindi, un piccolo bar con una sola luce, e dopo siamo arrivati a Trieste alle, molto tardi, di notte, circa a mezzanotte e c’erano ancora i tram però, e l’uno funzionava allora, abbiam preso il tram uno e siamo scesi in, s - salita per andare a San Giacomo dove c’è il, il, la scala Joyce, e dalla scala Joyce [coughs] abbiam fatto la scala Joyce, siamo arrivati fin su, era notte fatta, su cosa ho trovato? Su ho trovato che c’era per terra, perché per - dunque, qua, se tu vieni in fondo a Via Besenghi c’era uno stabilimento della ditta Beltrame, che costruiva divise, e, però, tutti, siccome lavorava giorno e notte i vetri erano oscurati e siccome la guerra era finita avevan buttato via tutti i vetri pitturati per terra e bisognava stare attenti perché era pieno di vetro rotti. E siccome dall’altra parte c’era un deposito militare tedesco, cioè devo adesso c’è il, il
MSP: La specola [?]
AP: Il Leonardo da Vinci
MSP: Eh? ah no
AP: No, la specola [?] il Leonardo da Vinci, fai conto, il cortile interno delle scuole, Oberdan e Da Vinci, ecco, che poi è vicino alla scala Joyce, ecco, lì c’erano i tedeschi, infatti lì c’eran tutti i mezzi tedeschi abbandonati che han fatto ruggine per vent’anni dopo, che poi li ha presi Enriquez e li ha portati qua, io mi ricordo il tragitto dei camion tedeschi che parte a rimorchio, che partivano non so da dove, da bambino, ma questo nel ‘48, dopo no? Quella notte siamo passati di lì, mi ricordo, ecco, altra cosa che c’erano i soliti elmetti tedeschi che io volevo beccare e non me li hanno lasciati prendere, ce n’erano per terra quanti volevi. [coughs] Ecco, e siamo arrivati qui dai nonni, finalmente, non potevamo suonare, abbiamo battuto e urlato perché non c’era corrente elettrica, son venuti con la candela a prenderci e, e, e da allora io abito qua. [coughs] Agosto ‘45.
PS: Hai dei ricordi legati al, ai giorni più vicini alla data della fine della guerra?
AP: Beh, sì uno è quello del - l’8 settembre, anche perché noi avevamo considerato la guerra finita, erano tutti felici c’era appunto chi cercava di vestirsi in borghese, di raccogliere, ecco sì. E dopo il 25 aprile, il 25 aprile, so che la notizia che correva più di tutti era che avevano attaccato Mussolini, quello me lo ricordo, ‘rché parlavano, erano tutti sconvolti, ma come? Cosa? A Milano, quindi si è saputo che la guerra era finita per questo. Più che altro la notizia è che avevano beccato Mussolini e lo avevano appeso in piazzale Loreto. Ecco que - questo è stato la fine della guerra, ecco. Ma altre novità, l’unica novità che ho visto alla fine della guerra, ero ancora a Varese, che ero rimasto male, è la pasta bianca, che prima la pasta era scura, mia mamma ha comprato la pasta bianca dicendo ‘è una meraviglia, è una meraviglia’ ma non aveva [unclear] molto diversa [laughs]. Io ti dico, dico le cose di un bambino, eh io. Ma diciamo de - sì, liberazione, non se ne poteva più insomma, in questo senso.
PS: Come lo hai vissuto in famiglia?
AP: Come?
PS: Come, non so, tua mamma ne parlava? Eh
AP: Sì, sì, sì, sì. Sì, ti ho detto che ascoltato il disco - l’ultimo discorso di Mussolini, mi ricordo era con la radio che ascoltava e io no - sentivo sta voce ma non capivo, non mi interessava, ecco. No, mia mamma, segui - ha seguito, comprava ogni giorno il Corriere della Sera quindi seguiva la cosa, cioè sapeva, ecco quello che mi ricordo che è stata una giornata in cui hanno tirato un respiro, mia mamma era molto contenta, quando hanno avuto la notizia che gli alleati erano sbarcati in Normandia, so che con altri amici che venivano [unclear] dicevano ‘ah è finita, è finita, se sono sbarcati la oramai la guerra è finita, questione di, questione di settimane’, quindi erano convinti che da la arrivavano a Berlino era finito tutto, [clears throat] e invece. Ma comunque c’era stato un diciamo, erano contenti ecco, che stava finendo, ecco. Perché non è, non ho sentito che ci fosse né grande odio né per gli uni né per gli altri quello, il sentimento che c’era è che non se ne poteva più perché mancava questo, mancava quello, mancava quest’altro, prima la smettono meglio è insomma. Questo era, non c’era politica ecco, diciamo non.
PS: Tu hai mai sentito parlare di Pippo?
AP: No, sì dai miei nonni, sapevo benissimo anche cos’era difatti ti ho detto era qu - [unclear], sì, sì, sì qua a Trieste c’era ma io non l’ho mai sentito perché non ero mai qua. Sono arrivato qua a guerra finita. Ed era fatto a scopo psicologico, ricognizione anche ma.
PS: Avevi sentito anche che cos’era, o?
AP: Sì, che era un aeroplano, che tutte le notti compariva cos - c’era questo rumore di un aeroplano che non si sapeva bene che cosa fosse perchè non bombardava però no, no - era più di uno tutti avevano ‘ecezione perché era voluto sfasando i motori, più di uno, però non si sapeva bene che cosa facesse, non era pericoloso ma poteva essere confuso con altri aeroplani che invece arrivavano e che erano pericolosi, a parte che c’era l’allarme eh. Tu lo sentivi, suonava, era fortissimo, io qua a Trieste non l’ho mai sentito perché non ero mai a Trieste ma gia anche lì a Azzate c’era l’allarme, suonava di notte e nessuno si muoveva perché [laughs] non tirava sicuro bombe lì sul [unclear]
PS: L’allarme per Pippo?
AP: No, non c’era no.
PS: No.
AP: No la no, la no. L’allarme suonava per i bombardamenti, ma. No, no que - questo del - [unclear] mai, cioè ne ho sentito parlare solo dai miei nonni e da amici e conoscenti ma io non. Dopo mi sono informato proprio dagli amici lì, dai b - [unclear] quelli eccetera e loro ‘sì, sì, sì’ e siccome era gente che si intendeva un po’ delle cose mi hanno anche spiegato di cosa si trattava. Che era un aereo, so anche un bimotore, un mosquito li chiamavano, inglese, era inglese [coughs] e, era stato studiato per guerra psicologica cioè aveva praticamente aveva larga autonomia, partiva da basi del, dell’Italia meridionale, perché loro erano bloccati a Cassino, no? Quindi partiva da - dall’Italia meridionale e stava per parecchio tempo su, su varie città, erano vari, erano una ventina di aerei praticamente. E davano l’idea, tenevano sotto pressione, impedivano alla gente di dormire, cr - creavano, panico insomma ecco.
PS: Ma quindi era più di uno?
AP: Sì, sì, sì. Sì, sì era fatto, proprio studiato, appositamente. Doveva essere inglese da quel che ho capito, ma non sono sicuro. Siccome non mi ha mai toccato non mi sono mai informato [laughs] più di tanto.
PS: Volevo solo chiederti ancora, quando suonava l’allarme? Hai detto che anche ad Azzate suonava l’allarme.
AP: Sì.
PS: Come, come vi comportavate?
AP: Bah, guarda le pri - la pri - io ricordo la prima volta, la prima volta che è suonato l’allarme allora siamo usciti di casa siamo andati fuori da un cancello e siamo andati in un prato vicino, mia madre ha disteso de - delle coperte e siamo stati lì, a aspettare. Dopo di che si è sentito il rumore degli aeroplani, non li vedevi perchè era di notte e poi dopo è passato il rumore degli aeroplani, chiaramente, su Varese [laughs] quelli non buttavano bombe sui prati dove eravamo noi. Questa la prima volta, la seconda volta boh, la terza volta non si è mosso nessuno. [clears throat] perché avevamo capito che non c’erano pericoli. L’unica volta, l’unica cosa che avevamo capito era che bombardavano la fabbrica di aerei, ma era dall’altra parte del lago quindi, una ventina di chilometri. L’unica cosa, ecco, ecco, l’unica cosa che io ero ghiotto è che i, dunque le bombe avevano la sicura, la sicura era un dunque, fa conto, la bomba, qua c’è la coda, no? Sai fatta così, no? Ecco, in, sul muso c’era una specie di vite che tu svitavi, perché se no era perico - svitavi prima del bombardamento e venivano svitate una per una e buttate giù, e, molte di queste si trovavano dall’altre parte del lago, due o tre erano probabilmente cadute anche nel nostro giardino, era grande così, bella, di metallo anche, non dico cromata ma bella, be - indubbiamente io ne avevo beccata una ed era arrivato un ragazzetto più grande di me e me l’ha fregata e quindi sono rimasto malissimo.
MSP: [laughs]
AP: Con gesto ratto me l’ha fregata ed è scappato lungo il viale che va beh bon. E io l’avevo trovata perché era cascata nel nostro giardino ed ero fiero cioè di avere questa roba. E poi l’altra cosa anche impressionante, bruta, era quando usavano i, i bengala, perchè per bombardare di notte la zona del lago lì la fabbrica ci, improvvisamente tu vedevi queste luci sinistre, prima sentivi gli aeroplani, poi vedevi queste luci erano verdi, verde giallo, che appese al paracadute che stavano, cioè, comparivano improvvisamente e venivano giù lente, lente, lente ma illuminavano tutto il lag - tutta la valle praticamente e quindi, illuminando l’obbiettivo, ecco. Questo è un altro ricordo di guerra, si come parlo mi viene in mente, sì, sì le luci. i bengala, i bengala.
PS: Questo lo hai visto più volte?
AP: Sì, sì, sì, sì, questo l’ho visto più volte. Di notte si svegliavano mamma e eh, ed io dalle finestre, no? Dalla finestra si vedeva, si vede, si vedeva i monti verso il lago e vedevi questo, tutta la valle illuminata praticamente, ma eran tanti eh. Ne buttavano una decina, ecco. Perchè poi scendevano, no? Scendevano e finivano basta e allora continuavano a buttarli.
PS: E questo era dall’altra parte del lago?
AP: E loro bombardav - sì, no, loro buttavano su tutto il lago anche dalla parte nostra, illuminavano tutta la valle, no? Sai come facevano i bombardieri, cioè loro non, non avevano il mirato come adesso, no? Loro avevano un angolo, passavano, avevano dei punti importanti, passavano su punti importanti e poi dopo sapevano che, con quella velocità con quello che e eh, su quella direttiva, dopo quel tempo mollavano le bombe e beccavano l’obiettivo, in genere non beccavano mai l’obbiettivo ma insomma. Avevano un sistema, gli americani e dopo in ultima aveva un sistema di mira perfezionato ma non so, andava dove andava poi c’era un po’ di vento, un po’, ma questo io allora non lo sapevo. Quello delle luci, si è, era un, delle luci sgradevoli, come un, ti davano un senso un, era una luce verdastra, fai conto, verde e gialla, molto.
PS: Però, come, che emozioni provavi quando vedevi.
AP: Non paura. Che avevo capito subito, pur essendo bambino avevo capito subito che le bombe in testa a noi non ci venivano, ecco, quindi non paura, era interesse più che altro. Ma era un interesse sempre frustrato dagli interventi di madre e nonna, che cercavano di dire ‘povero bambino, non deve vedere gli orrori della guerra’ e quindi ogni volta venivo trattenuto. Io ero avido di vedere le cose, [laughs] ma, ma c’era o chi mi tappava gli occhi, chi mi metteva in cantina e chi mi metteva a letto. Mentre io volevo vedere, le bombe, il fuoco, ma insomma e, ero un bambino, ecco. Non ero assolutamente, cioè mi rendevo conto che non correvo nessun pericolo probabilmente se avessi corso pericolo avrei avuto la paura di mia moglie, ecco. Ma, ne è Capodistria ne, non c’eran pericoli.
PS: Abbiamo quasi finito
AP: Bene
PS: Solo ancora una o due domande in conclusione
AP: Sì
PS: Che cosa pensavi quando vedevi quelle luci e si vedeva il bagliore di Milano?
AP: Interessante, bello, e come posso dirti? Io avevo tutto il giorno i soldatini e quindi per me era un episodio di guerra interessantissimo, bello, ma non, non, non, cioè, non provavo né orrore, né pietà, né paura, niente di tutto questo [laughs] guarda come mi guarda mia moglie, beh è la verità, purtroppo
MSP: Sì
AP: [coughs] è, è, era soltanto interessante, ‘oh per bacco, bello! qualcosa di nuovo!’ era un po’ un noioso star lì in campagna, non c’era niente, mangiati quei quattro frutti, mangiate quelle quattro robe, avevo sti quattro giocattolini, ma era un po’ noiosetto e, e questo in fondo era molto, come posso dire? Interessante, ecco, vedevi stanno bombardando Milano, ‘ah guarda e - e - il fuoco’, stan bombardando lo stabilimento ‘ah guarda!’ ecco, era qualcosa di nuovo, insomma. Eh, devi tener conto della psico - la psiche di un bambino, insomma, non, non mi rendevo conto. Né mia madre era tipa che, che si sciogliesse tanto nel dolore, ecco, non era il tipo. Le donne longobarde non sono [laughs] mia moglie era piut - mia mamma era una piuttosto vispa, insomma, non è che, non è quelle - l’unica volta che li ho visti preoccupati è stata quella volta di Dresda. Per cui evidentemente quelli camminavano molto, molto ma ba - a bassa quota, era guerra quasi finita, non temeva contraerea, e quindi tremava tutta la casa, questo me lo ricordo anch’io, tremava per ore, tremava tutta la casa, passano molto bassi evidentemente, e allora mi ricordo che di notte erano lì con la candela, mia nonna pregava e mia mamma un po’ meno, ma insomma eran sveglie ecco. [clears throat]
PS: E [clears throat] in occasione di questo episodio qui voi eravate in casa?
AP: Sì, sì, sì. Io ero a letto, loro due erano sveglie ecco, la candela che z - chi pregava e ch - io ero a letto bambino e bam bom e perché era febbraio era un freddo cane tra l’altro lì non - sì, tra l’altro, altro episodio che è interessante il camino, cioè c’era un camino, mia nonna aveva un, una specie di tinello con un camino che non tirava bene, metteva e accendeva il fuoco e veniva fumo. E io mi son mangiato tanto fumo, in quegli anni, tanto fastidio che non ho mai più fumato in vita mia. Cioè non ho mai fumato una sigaretta è, vero? Solo una volta mia ma - moglie mi ha dato una pipa, perché mio suocero aveva, da uomo, mio suocero era comandante superiore e quindi, abbiamo ereditato delle pipe, me ne ha data una ma son stato talmente male che ho rinunciato che. Quindi c’era questo episodio del fumo che mi veniva negli occhi ecco, e perciò faceva un freddo cane, perchè poi va, lì Azzate, Varese son zone molto più fredde, son vicine alle prealpi ecco, quindi io durante il famoso episodio io stavo a letto rintanato, e loro due p - erano preoccupate.
PS: Quando [clears throat] quando ti eri reso conto, quando avevi saputo che quegli aerei erano diretti a Dresda?
AP: Subito. Il giorno n - due o tre giorni dopo sui giornali, perché la repubblica sociale che, sarà stato ‘crimini! criminali!’ perché veniva, i giornali chiaramente li consideravano criminali e, hanno, e e, parlava del, del disastro, sai che Dresda ci son stati non so quanti morti, la città è - e poi aveva preso fuoco tutto, insomma era un disastro e quindi abbiamo capito che andavano, che erano andati a Dresda ecco, perché lì stessa notte, stessa, che, che. Mia mamma aveva capito subito che era Dresda. Che avevano fatto quel disastro che han fatto, no? Quello che non ho mai capito neanche dopo io, da dove fossero partiti e, perché avevo l’impressione che venissero come, cioè passavano sopra, almeno quelli che ho visto di giorno, venivano da l - da sud e andavano verso, verso nord, nord ovest, ecco, passavano obliqui sopra la casa, ecco. Questo, questo però non, non è delle mie memorie, questo l’ho ricostruito dopo. Da dove partissero non, non ho la più pallida idea. Però ho l’impressione che, perché l’ho letto da altre parti, che facessero una specie di, cioè loro si appoggiavano su due aeroporti, uno, per dire, in Inghilterra e uno nell’Italia meridionale, e che partissero dall’Italia meridionale, bombardassero e poi atterrassero in Inghilterra, mentre quelli dell’Inghilterra partivano, bombardavano e atte - e atterravano nell’Italia meridionale, cioè non è che tornassero indietro, ecco. Forse l’autonomia non lo so, non. Ma credo che fosse così, usavano, si appoggiavano su due aereoporti.
PS: E quegli ae - gli ae- quegli aerei non li avete visti perché.
AP: No, quelli di notte non li abbiamo visti, erano sicuramente erano inglesi perché erano molto bassi e di notte, gli americani sì, li vedevamo, però non vedevamo niente, vede - hai presente come sono i jet adesso? Camminavano a otto, novemila metri come i jet di oggi, tu vedevi un puntino luminoso, solo che adesso tu vedi un puntino, là ne vedevi dieci, dieci puntini con tutte le, le scie perchè era, dieci, quanti erano insomma, non, non so dirti, non c’erano, cioè tu di solito te li fan vedere in formazione, no, eran messi così come capita e vedevi solo la scia e un lampo di luce quando giravano o quando e, ma eran talmente alti che non vedevi niente.
PS: A casa, si era poi parlato del, del bombardamento, cioè tua mamma
AP: Sì sì
PS: Aveva detto qualcosa?
AP: Sì sì sì sì, era terrorizzata, piangeva, soprattutto si preoccupava tanto perché io avrei dovuto andare a scuola, l’anno dopo, ed era successo il bombardamente di Gorla, non so se sai la cosa, sai la storia no? Ecco, che avevano preso in pieno a Milano una scuola, dovevano prendere un’officina e son morti non so quanti bambini, mi ricordo che mia mamma era impressionatissima e leggeva sul Corriere della Sera, che poi era, era gonfiata dalla propaganda perché era Repubblica Sociale, no? Dell’episodio di Gorla, era terrorizzata. Ecco. Sì, sì se ne parlava eccome, c’era paura. C’era paura perché poi lei pensava che la guerra finita non avrei potuto restare a lì nel pasino, avremmo dovuto, se mio padre tornava, non si sapeva se tornare a Trieste perché pareva che Trieste fosse occupata dagl - diventasse Jugoslavia e quindi era un problema. E sennò saremmo stati a Milano ma, e l - se la guerra non finiva Milano aveva i bombardamen - insomma c’era grande preoccupazione. Questo sì. Soprattutto la storia di Gorla, vedo che sapevi. Ma chi l’ha fatta? Americani, mi pare, di giorno no era? Eh sì, eh sì di giorno eh. Sì, i bambini a scuola.
AP: Allora, eh, ti faccio ancora l’ultimissima domanda
PS: Sì, tranquillo!
AP: Tutto quello che fino adesso mi hai detto è stato estremamente interessante e
PS: Grazie
AP: [clears throat] Adesso a più di settant’anni dalla fine della guerra, pensando a quel tempo
PS: Sì
AP: Come vedi le cose, come pensi sia l -
PS: Come penso
AP: Alla guerra, anche ai bombardamenti, come.
PS: Beh, intanto io sono convinto che la guerra sia un fallimento della diplomazia. Io son laureato in scienze politiche, quindi ho avuto una preparazione per la diplomazia e penso che quella si possa fare tutto, ovviamente quando la diplomazia non, manca si fa la guerra. E, la guerra, cosa vuoi? Eh, cioè, erano guerre però diverse da quelle di oggi, cioè, erano guerre e, pa - come posso dire? C’è un termine da usare, aspetta, cioè, erano guerre tra eserciti, ecco. Questo è il problema. E quindi gran parte di quelli che combattevano non, non combat - non erano, non combattevano una guerra ideologica, ci saran stati dei reparti speciali, la camicie nere e, e le SS, sì, ecco, ma era una guerra simmetrica soprattutto erano eserciti contro eserciti, quindi la maggior parte era gente che faceva il proprio dovere. Giusto? Cioè me lo sono posto anch’io quando, ufficiale della brigata missili, ero nella, nelle condizioni di poter e - insieme con gli ameri - mericani sparare un, un Honest John, un missile Honest John, con testata nucleare, spararglielo verso, verso il confine, e e, de - della Cecoslovacchia [clears throat] mi s - mi ero chie - ecco, però in quel momento lì non è che io odiassi i russi, odiassi i ghe - e - esatto. Dopo, avevo contattato anche un amico, no? Cecoslovacco, dopo, un modellista il quale mi ha detto che lui era dall’altra parte esattamente coi missili anche lui, poi ci siamo incontrati che facevamo modelli di navi e - ecco, per capire. Quindi pensavo, io penso questo, cioè che purtroppo le guerre e, cioè, non c’è odio da una parte o dall’altra in genere. Adesso le guerre sono diverse, perché adesso sono guerre asimmetriche e quindi sono, da una parte c - c’è l’odio e dall’altra, ecco. Ma rispetto a una guerra no, non, gli unici che eran pericolosi, temuti, erano gli jugoslavi, perché gli alleati dopo che son venuti qua erano assolutamente amici, erano assolutamente, non eran pericolosi, ecco, né, n - né i, noi abbiamo avuto l’impressione che lo fossero i tedeschi, perché, cioè, avranno f - sì, effettivamente lì a Capodistria, dopo che loro ci hanno mi hanno l - la fetta di pane, c’hanno vuotata il pozzo nero, hanno salutato tutti e, e se ne sono andati, dopo per l - due giorni, abbiamo continuato a sentire odor di fumo perché loro hanno, praticamente c’erano dei villaggi che sicuramente avevano dato aiuto ai partigiani e loro li hanno rasi al suolo, la gente è scappata e loro hanno raso al suolo tutto, hanno macellato gli animali, mangiato tutto e, e dopo hanno chiamato gli italiani, a vuot - perché han trovato le foibe, a tirar fuori, non li han tirati fuori loro, e anche gli han mandato gli italiani giù a, a tirar fuori dalle foibe, dopo li han portati a Capodistria, ma io quelli non le ho viste, so che c’era un punto dove avevano messo tutte le bare con tutti i - praticamente che erano poi in decomposizione, insomma, era una roba, mia mamma mi ha raccontato ma io non, non ho visto niente di tutto questo. L’unica roba che ho visto e sentito è l’odor di fumo [laughs] e che nella notte c’era per due giorni che i tedeschi avevano, qua, a suon di lanciafiamme avevano distrutto il monte di Capodistria e altri villaggi lì in giro, perché avevano dato asilo ai partigiani, questo so. Questo è l’unico.
PS: Va bene
AP: Sì
PS: Grazie mille
AP: A voi per l’ascolto
PS: Per la disponibilità e per aver acconsentito l’intervista anche a nome dell’Internation Bomber Command Centre e
AP: Grazie
PS: Grazie ancora
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Aldo Petrina
Description
An account of the resource
Aldo Petrina lived in Capodistria with his family until March 1944. Recollects a day when a German warned his mother that they risk being thrown in a karst sinkhole. because they did not speak Slovenian. All the family the moved to Varese, where he witnesses the bombing of the Macchi warks, with the whole valley light up by flares. Describes a Liberator shot down by Swiss anti-aircraft fire. Recollects the story of his father escape form Cephalonia. Aldo Petrina came back in Trieste in 1945, his father returned home only after the war.
Creator
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2018-01-09
Contributor
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Format
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00:27:11 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Greece
Slovenia
Italy--Po River Valley
Greece--Cephalonia (Municipality)
Slovenia--Koper
Italy--Trieste
Italy--Varese
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
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1943-09-08
Identifier
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APetrinaA180109
PPetrinaA1801
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7930/LHarrisonR[Ser -DoB]v1.jpg
6e179190f8ff559eba00751da4b32fd8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harrison, R
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Page from Ron Harrison's log book
Description
An account of the resource
An extract from Ron Harrison's log book detailing his operations as an air gunner with 70 Squadron between 2 March 1945 and 24 March 1945. Details targets in Italy, Yugoslavia and Austria: Verona, Pola, Gemona, Padua, Monfalcone, Bruck, Pragersko and St Veit. His pilots on operations were Sergeant Edwards, Flying Officer Laver, Sergeant Bennett and Warrant Officer Middleton.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ron Harrison
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One handwritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LHarrisonR[Ser#-DoB]v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Austria
Croatia
Italy
Slovenia
Austria--Bruck an der Mur
Croatia--Pula
Italy--Gemona del Friuli
Italy--Monfalcone
Italy--Padua
Italy--Verona
Slovenia--Slovenska Bistrica
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03
1945-03-02
1945-03-03
1945-03-04
1945-03-07
1945-03-11
1945-03-12
1945-03-16
1945-03-19
1945-03-20
1945-03-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
70 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bombing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7932/MHarrisonR[Ser -DoB]-151208-02.jpg
73abefce0c977299b94d8593a6807e73
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, R
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[PILOT BREVET]
76 OPERATIONAL TRAINING UNIT – WELLINGTON MEDIUM BOMBERS. EIGHT WEEK COURSE.
[NAVIGATOR BREVET]
[BOMB AIMER BREVET]
[AIR GUNNER BREVET]
[ENGINEER BREVET]
[AIR SIGNALLER BREVET]
[AIR GUNNER BREVET]
FORMATION OF CREW – PILOT- NAVIGATOR- BOMB AIMER-FLIGHT ENGINEER- WIRELESS OPERATOR – AND TWO AIR GUNNERS.
DAY AND NIGHT FLYING.
TRAINING- AIR GUNNERS-AIR TO DROGUE FIRING – AIR TO SEA FIRING – FIGHTER AFFILIATION AND EVASIVE ACTIONS.
COMBINED CREW EXERCISES – DAY AND NIGHT CROSS COUNTRY/SEA FLIGHTS OF 5 TO 6 HOURS AT 10-15,000FT
1675 HEAVY CONVERSION UNIT – B.24 LIBERATOR
FOUR WEEK CONVERSION COURSE – RAF ABU SUEIR
Dublin Core
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Title
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76 OTU Training Course
Description
An account of the resource
A list of the coverage of the eight week course at 76 Operational Training Unit.
Format
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One printed sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Training material
Identifier
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MHarrisonR[Ser#-DoB]-151208-02
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Contributor
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Claire Monk
Jane Lloyd
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abu Sueir
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7934/MHarrisonR[Ser -DoB]-151208-04.jpg
86d51056dec3f1e8c5f082604ee01804
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harrison, R
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Crew positions - B-24
Description
An account of the resource
A port side image of a B-24 Mk VI showing the eight crew positions.
Format
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One printed sheet
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
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MHarrisonR[Ser#-DoB]-151208-04
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
70 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bomb aimer
flight engineer
navigator
pilot
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7936/MHarrisonR[Ser -DoB]-151208-06.jpg
8a50b367c1cd7f1a91787776f240067f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, R
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Bombs dropped by a 70 Squadron Liberator cascade on to V for Victor of 37 Squadron during a raid on the shipyards at Manfalcone, Italy on 16 March 1945. Although the bombs had not fallen far enough to become ‘live’ the perspex in Wally Lewis’s mid-upper turret and the port inner propeller were both ripped away, leaving a large hole in the fuselage behind Squadron Leader L. Saxby, the pilot, and hitting Flight Sergeant Cliff Hurst, the WOP, in the back, leaving him unconscious. However, V for Victor limped home to Tortorella, more than 300 miles away and landed safely. Squadron Leader Saxby and his bomb aimer P/O G.T. Barker can be seen inspecting the damage.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Bombs dropping onto B-24
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph 1 is a vertical image of bombs dropping from one B-24 onto a second.
Photograph 2 is the damaged B-24 on the ground showing the damage. Two crew are looking through the damaged areas.
The caption describes in some detail the events. The pilot was Squadron Leader L. Saxby and bomb aimer was Pilot Officer G. T. Baker are seen in the second photograph. The wireless operator Flight Sergeant Hurst was hit in the back and rendered unconscious.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03-16
Format
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Two b/w photographs from a scrapbook
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Identifier
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MHarrisonR[Ser#-DoB]-151208-06
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
37 Squadron
70 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
bomb aimer
bomb struck
pilot
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7970/AHarrisonR151116.1.mp3
78c4628fae306c070946abd90f7380e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay then so, this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command centre and Lincoln University, and today I’m with Dick Harrison in York, and what I’d like you to tell me is, first of all, is just date of birth and just a little bit about your family and your, your upbringing, what your parents did, that sort of thing.
RH: Yeah, I was born of the 5th of February 1924, I was born in Köln en Rhine, Deutschland, Cologne, Germany and er yeah, Dad English, Mother German, we came back to England in I think it was 1926, I was two years old.
AM: How did your Dad meet your Mum then if she was German?
RH: He was in the army of occupation.
AM: In? In Cologne or?
RH: In Germany.
AM: In Germany, yeah.
RH: Yeah, because he’d been on the Western Front from 1915 to 18, he was a regular soldier when he was in Cologne and various other places in the Rhineland, but he met my Mother in Cologne.
AM: Right.
RH: I think they were married there in 1922, something like that.
AM: So, what did he do when you came back to England? What did your parents do?
RH: Well he was a regular soldier and he carried on being a soldier.
AM: Right. Right through, yeah?
RH: Yeah until 19, yeah 1936.
AM: Oh blimey, right.
RH: He left the army and became a civil servant.
AM: Ah, me too, well that’s another story.
[laughter]
RH: And me too.
[laughter]
AM: So, tell me a bit about your school years then.
RH: School years, well Dad’s camp was near Salisbury, Winterbourne, so I went to a primary school in Winterbourne, and although people say today, you know, how good the schools were back then, this was a truly appalling school [laughs] well, and from there, I can’t remember what it was called, you sat the exam when you were eleven. And from there I went to Bishops school in Salisbury which was a local grammar school, then unfortunately my Dad left the army, the civil service post was in Gloucestershire, so we had to move to Gloucestershire, and I went to and I had to transfer schools, from a very [emphasis] good and excellent school in Salisbury to certainly a below par one in Gloucester.
AM: Right.
RH: Near Gloucester.
AM: What age were you when you left?
RH: When I left what?
AM: When you left school.
RH: Sixteen.
AM: Did you do schools certificate and everything?
RH: No, I didn’t.
AM: No.
RH: No, I had enough of that school.
AM: Right. [laughs] So what did you do when you left school?
RH: Worked in an office.
AM: Yeah, doing?
RH: Pardon?
AM: Doing just normal administrative?
RH: Yes.
AM: Office work.
RH: Yes, just clerical work, that’s all.
AM: Yeah.
RH: It was a company that, it was a [unclear]company so I was dealing with invoices and things like that.
AM: Right. So what year are we up to now? Sixteen, nineteen, I’m just trying to work my own arithmetic out, if you were sixteen?
RH: I left school in 1940.
AM: Right, so the war had started.
RH: Yeah and I was already involved.
[background noise]
AM: Right, and I’m looking now at the County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions, and this is to certify that mister Richard Harrison completed his course in anti-gas training, under the auspices of County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions central authority and has acquired sufficient knowledge of anti-gas measures to act as a member of the public ARP service. Tell me about that then, what was that like?
RH: Erm, and that’s what I—
AM: Oh, I’ve missed a bit, nature of the course attended was—
RH: Was a cycle messenger.
AM: Right, what did that mean?
RH: We were about ten miles north of Bristol, so when they were attacking Bristol, you know I was very interested, the first time I saw flak [laughs] but—
AM: What was that like then?
RH: Well, I mean as a kid it’s all very interesting, isn’t it? I mean we, the village hall was our local ARP post, and every Friday night that was my job, even when I was at school, every Friday night, get there for six or seven o’clock, I think it was, until six, seven o’clock the next morning, with my bike ready to go anywhere. And all over Bristol, it was a fantastic sight really was, searchlights, flak, German bombers coming over lit up, one crashed about a mile away from us here, but no it was quite a, quite a sight, and when they attacked Avonmouth and the oil tanks were set on fire, the whole of the horizon was red, yeah amazing sight.
AM: So, where were you sent off cycling? Taking what sort of messages?
RH: [sighs] Well we was just, I can’t remember the details. I remember one, one regular one was to cycle down to the pub and bring them back a pint of cider or something, and that was a regular run.
[laughter]
AM: Right, so the message was, how many drinks?
RH: Yeah.
AM: So, so when, so that was it, you did your cycling in your messenger training.
RH: Yes.
AM: And then what?
RH: What?
AM: What made you join the RAF? Oh, what came next should I say with regards to?
RH: The Home Guard.
AM: Right.
RH: I joined that when, yeah before I was seventeen I joined that and despite what people say and that, because there’s that film—
AM: Dad’s Army
RH: Dad’s Army. I mean, it was one of the most useful things ever because I was in a platoon where the officer commanding was World War one soldier, my Father was a platoon sergeant, World War one soldier, there were several of them, I mean when I went into the RAF, foot drill, arms drill, using a rifle, shooting on the range, using a machine gun.
AM: You’d already done it.
RH: It was easy, yeah, it was easy. I also joined the Air Training Corps about the same time.
AM: Right.
RH: So, at one time I had three balls in the air [laughs] ARP, Home Guard, Air Training Corps.
AM: And [unclear]
RH: And in addition to that, I took a St John’s, St John ambulance first aid course and got a certificate for that, so—
AM: Right.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Blimey. So, when you joined the RAF, but I think Gary said RAF regiment?
RH: Pardon?
AM: I think Gary said you joined the RAF regiment?
[phone rings]
RH: Excuse me.
[interview paused]
RH: Where were we?
AM: So, where were we?
GR: You were juggling three balls, ATC.
AM: We were juggling all those balls with your ATC, and your Home Guard.
RH: In the end I packed up the, one of them became civil defence from ARP, so I packed, I packed that up, I couldn’t get—
AM: Right.
RH: Otherwise I was chasing round four nights a week [laughs] and weekends with the Home Guard.
AM: And working in your office.
RH: And working as well.
AM: And working as well.
RH: Yeah.
AM: So, you’re coming up to eighteen, why the RAF? Where did you join? What was, what was you’re, what was it like?
RH: For a young lad I mean it’s, it’s just the glamour of the thing. King and country had nothing at all to do with it [laughs] don’t say that—
[laughter]
AM: We’ll cut that out.
RH: All I wanted, well I mean, one saw a war films didn’t you, ‘target for the night’ and all the rest of it. But unfortunately, I had a heart condition and my, on my medical records which I saw, because I wanted to go into aircrew, I wanted to be a wireless operator.
AM: Right.
RH: Wireless operator [unclear] because I’d been, Father had taught my brother and I morse code, and in the house, he’d rigged up two keys and we used to use that, even when we were ten or eleven years old we knew the morse code, and in the Air Training Corps, when the CO discovered I already knew morse, I became the morse code instructor for the squadron.
[laughter]
RH: And, but when I went for the medical, I think I was, temporarily unfit for aircrew duties, they said that would right itself eventually, and I remember being interviewed by the, this officer, he said, ‘well, I’m sorry,’ he said, ‘ that you’re fit for ground crew duties but you’re not fit for aircrew duties,’ I said, ‘right, in that case I don’t want to join the RAF, I’m going to join the army,’ [laughs] because I was fit enough for the army, and I had a mate, a school friend who was up at Catterick driving a tank, saying how great it was and I could picture myself in that, so I said, ‘I’m going to join the army, the Armour Corps,’ ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘we’re not going to waste, what was it twelve months or more Air Training Corps and then you go in the army,’ he said, ‘you’ll be called up,’ and that’s what happened. I got, yeah, before Christmas it was, 1942.
AM: Right.
RH: And I got my call up papers and went to Penarth in South Wales where they sorted you out, and because I’d been a clerk in civvy street, I went through trade tests, maths, English, I could type, type writing, book keeping, and that took all morning, and then at the end of it they said, ‘alright you’re now a trade group for clerk general duties,’ but it did mean that whereas a lad going in without any trade at all was getting three shillings a day, I got four shillings and threepence a day because I was a trade [laughs] and of course guys like one of the guys I sort of chummed up with, he had been a metal worker, and I can’t remember what trade he went into, but I know he was getting sort of, six shillings and something a day because he was a group one trade as against group four. Right, so what do you want next then?
AM: Ooh, well, what happened next? Tell me about it. What were you actually doing then? So, you got three a day—
RH: I can think, in my eight weeks I think it was, square bashing and then I was posted to RAF Tempsford in Bedfordshire.
AM: Right.
RH: And, that was the base for the special duties squadrons, 161 and 138, and they were dropping supplies and people for the resistance.
AM: Right, okay.
RH: And it was all top secret, I mean I suppose I didn’t know what they were doing.
GR: There was Maurice Buckmaster and Vera Atkins.
RH: Well, maybe so, Wing Commander Pickard, DSO, a couple of bars and all the rest of it, he was, he was the C.O. and, but I knew something about aircraft, and so what struck me was these Halifax’s, they had no mid upper turret, and I thought well that’s strange, and bomb trolleys were parked alongside the hangar with grass growing through them, so they weren’t being used [laughs] but no one told you anything. Eventually one of the guys in the office said, ‘Dick, do you know what we are doing?’ and this was after a month or so, I said, ‘yeah, I reckon you’re dropping agents into, into France,’ I said, because I had to do a what, a sort of duty every now and again, overnight, man the phone and so forth, and during that time, you would see a couple of black saloon cars going, going by, and they were going over to, what I discovered later, was a farm, an old farm where they were kitted up before they did their jumps. And, yeah, very secret, so I remember a guy crashed on take-off and they were all killed, and that night or the next night the father was calling and I answered the phone, and I said, ‘I’m sorry I can’t tell you anything,’ you know, ‘was he on the raid to Berlin?’ I said, ‘I’m sorry,’ [laughs] I knew what had happened to him but wasn’t allowed to say. And another little story, no need to record, as I say it was all top secret, this Halifax was missing, so that was seven guys as well, so into the HQ, came their, the NCOs, their pay books and in the pay book was a next of kin listed. Now the wireless operator in that crew had listed his next of kin as a girl in Sandy village, which was four or five miles—
AM: Yeah, I know where you mean.
RH: Away, you know?
AM: Yeah, I know exactly where you mean.
RH: You know where I mean? So, the Padre and another officer went down to give her the bad news, sort of thing he was missing, but I mean I wasn’t witness to this, I only heard about it afterwards, and apparently when they gave her the bad news, she said, ‘well he’ll be alright wont he?’ they said, ‘what do you mean?’ ‘well I mean, they are dropping supplies to the French resistance and they’ll —
AM: Oh God.
RH: Get him back. Which they didn’t. While I was there, not him, but while I was there a guy came back, but the only thing I saw was her arriving with an RAF police escort in a car, and she was wheeled in to see Wing Commander Pickard, and I suppose he read the riot act to her, keep your mouth shut.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And some years ago when I was caravanning down there, I went back to see if I could get onto Tempsford, but it was all wired off, but you could see the huts in the background, and I met, a local woman came out of her house, and as a wee child she remembered this place and she said, ‘you see that hedge there?’ she said, ‘we lived up on the hill and we weren’t allowed to come below that hedge, no civilians were allowed below that hedge line,’ it was so, so secret.
AM: It’s amazing isn’t it.
RH: On one occasion Wing Commander Pickard, flying a Hudson, that’s that one up there, that was—
AM: I’m looking at, I’m looking at models here.
RH: Yeah, that was his aircraft, and he’d taken people down to the south of France to a landing ground down there, and when it came to take off, he’d bogged down, because it was just a field, and so they had to turn out local farm horses and so forth and pull him onto hard ground so he could take off. I remember next morning in the HQ, one of the guys said to me, ‘have you seen the CO’s Hudson take off?’ I said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘well go and look at hangar so and so,’ and there it was parked up outside, still with mud up into the engines themselves, and he got a, I think he had three DSO’s, was it, Wing Commander Pickard? He was shot down in the end on another raid, yeah. So, there we are, what’s next then?
AM: So that’s that, well you tell me. What came next?
RH: I must have been the worst clerk general duties that the RAF ever had, because I wasn’t a bit interested in what I was doing [laughs] and I was always on the—
AM: Wanting to be up there.
RH: Back in front of the adjutant flight sergeant being given a lecture about something I’d done wrong. Then one day two guys came into the office and I knew they’d been in north Africa, and they said, ‘can we have a form to volunteer to go overseas,’ I said, ‘but you’ve only just come back.’ [emphasis]
AM: Two aircrew this?
RH: Pardon?
AM: Two aircrew you talking about?
RH: No, they weren’t aircrew.
AM: Oh right, okay still—
RH: They were two groundcrew. Said, ‘we’ve only just come back,’ and I said, ‘you want to go back out there again?’ ‘well, [emphasis] England, terrible place isn’t it, full of Yanks and all the rest, no, the sooner we get out of here the better,’ so I thought, what a good idea.
[laughter]
GR: Get me one of these forms.
[laughter]
RH: Get me one of those forms, yeah. And then I had a medical and this medical officer said, you know, as I said to you on the phone yesterday, he said, ‘right, condition no longer, so I’ll put you forward shall I, for the aircrew medical?’ I said, ‘no, no thanks I want to go overseas.’
[laughter]
RH: Did you read that letter?
GR: This one?
RH: Yeah, the one, the regiment one?
GR: Yes, I’m reading it, yeah.
AM: I’ll take a copy afterwards. So, you went overseas rather than aircrew?
RH: Yes, I volunteered to go overseas, it was all very quick, in fact I was sent on what they called, embarkation leave.
AM: Hmm, hmm.
GR: Yeah.
RH: And I think that was one week or two, and while I was at home in Gloucestershire, a telegram came telling me to report back to Tempsford, and I’d only been home two or three days, and so I went back and there was my posting notice, and I think, I thought the RAF were taking their revenge on me for not carrying on with aircrew because they posted me to an RAF Regiment squadron. And believe me in 1943, to be in the RAF Regiment, you know, I mean today, yes, they’ve got a good reputation, but that was really the backend of everything. And there were about a dozen of us, tradesmen, clerks, cooks, vehicle mechanics, armourers, wireless guys and so forth, and all resentful [laughs] at being posted to the regiment.
AM: Where was that though? Where were you posted to?
RH: Oh yeah, that was near Peterborough, near Peterborough. And, when I arrived there, there was a corporal clerk in the, what do you call it? Orderly room, in the orderly room. And as soon as I arrived, he sent off a signal under the adjutant’s signature, under who was away at the time, to the airman’s records at Innsworth in Gloucestershire saying, that Corporal so and so, can’t remember his name, was unfit for overseas duty. And so about, a couple of days later a signal came posting him out, didn’t get off kindly. [laughs]
AM: So where, where from, where did you go from Peterborough?
RH: Overseas.
AM: Yeah, but where though? Whereabouts?
RH: Sicily.
AM: Sicily.
RH: We went to, yeah it was a, it took a month altogether, although I think it was three weeks to Algiers on a troop ship as a convoy—
AM: I was going to say—
RH: As it was, but— Yeah, although in my letter I said, not eventful, in fact it was interesting at times because a U-boat got in amongst the convoy, and there were destroyers dashing up and down dropping depth charges. [laughs]
AM: It’s probably quite exciting when you are eighteen, nineteen.
RH: It was, when you are a kid, when you are a kid.
AM: You’re still a teenager, really aren’t you?
RH: Yeah, I remember saying to one of the seamen on our, on our troop ship, you know, ‘why is that, why are they flying a black pennant?’ he said, ‘that’s because they’ve detected a boat,’ he said, ‘they’ve detected a U, U-boat.’ Then we went to Algiers, and then we left Algiers, still didn’t know where we were going at that time. And then, I was in what was called the headquarters flight, which all the tradesmen were in that flight and we were called up for a briefing by the adjutant, and then we knew we were going to Sicily, and there were maps passed round for us to look at, and we were going to takeover, it was a light anti-aircraft squadron by the way, it had a twenty-millimetre cannon.
AM: Okay.
RH: We were going to take over defence of the Gerbini airfield near Cantania in Sicily, and that was the plan. But unfortunately, the Germans, you know, didn’t know what our plan was—
[laughter]
RH: And so, when we got to Sicily they were still there. [laughs] And er, yeah, we landed, we went to Malta first, I think we stayed there overnight or a couple of nights, and then we went to Sicily, and it was over the, over the side, down scrambling nets onto the landing craft and then onto a little [old?] pier sort of thing. And then we formed up and marched up into an olive grove and we were there for about a week. We were waiting for our trucks to arrive and the cannon, but they’d all been sunk. It was funny when we were en route from Algiers to Malta, there was a, ‘boom,’ bang and a great column of smoke over in the distance, that was the ship going down, and we heard later that was our ship [laughs] with all the trucks on.
AM: Blimey.
RH: So when we got to, then we were posted and moved to Lentini and that was a new, new landing ground, and we were sent there for anti-parachute troop duties. The Germans had dropped paratroopers into Sicily, not, not straight into combat, they dropped them as reinforcements to the guys who were already there.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And, but some of them were dropped too far south, and when the 8th Army had pushed up and they were left behind.
AM: I’m just looking, thinking about the geography, so you’re in the south of Sicily?
RH: Pardon?
AM: I’m just thinking about the geography of Sicily, so the Germans were on the island?
RH: Oh yeah, and eventually, eventually they had four divisions there. They had three to, three to begin with and then, then they dropped in two regiments from the 1st Parachute Division, and they were dropped in as reinforcements, behind their own lines. But they were the guys who eventually who stopped the 8th Army, you know, getting any further. But, and so when we got to Lentini, they were forming patrols of about a dozen guys and an NCO, and they [unclear] [laughs] searched the local olive groves and go through, and as I said in, in the letter, you know, God help them if they come across any German para’s because I’m sure we would have been sending out the first missing in action signals.
[laughter]
RH: Because they wouldn’t have stood a chance, they wouldn’t have stood a chance against those guys. So, that was that.
AM: So, how long were you there for, on Sicily?
RH: Pardon?
AM: How long were you on Sicily for? Ish?
RH: Yeah, we landed there a week after the invasion began, July, August, and then, when did we go into Italy? September the 3rd? So, we went into Italy on September the 10th, something like that.
AM: Right, so, so the Germans had been pushed back?
RH: They evacuated.
AM: They evacuated.
RH: Yeah, they got everything away, they got everything away, they had a defensive line sort of thing, and they just took it step by step back, and meanwhile they, I think forty thousand men all their guns and tanks, everything they managed to get across the Straits of Messina. And, [pause] the regiment squadron, we were on, we moved from Lentini to the Scordia landing ground, again it’s only a rough strip through, through the fields and that was the American 57th Fighter Group. They were equipped with P-40 Warhawks and they used to go out day after day trying to stop the Germans evacuating the—
AM: Getting across the Straits.
RH: Their, their stuff. And that was the first time I’d come across American, Americans and they were great guys, [emphasis] they really were. And later on, we were on the same airfield, when I was in aircrew and again, you know, they really are first, first class blokes, I thought.
AM: So, you’re on, we’re on the push now, what, what month did we say we were? August? What, what—
GR: No, September into Italy.
AM: And September into Italy.
RH: September into Italy.
AM: So you—
RH: I’ll just tell this little story while we—
AM: Go on, yes.
RH: At Scordia, I mean they were suffering losses because I mean they were having to make quite low level attacks with their fighter bombers. And we were watching these guys coming back, and, and one of them he came in rather high, banged [emphasis] down onto the ground, up in the air, bang [emphasis] and then turned over onto his, onto his back, so the pilot was trapped under, underneath. But I mean, they were very, very quick, in no time there was a, the er, a fire tender, an ambulance, and a mobile crane. And the mobile crane lifted the aircraft up, turned it over—
AM: [inaudible]
RH: And they forced the canopy open and out [laughs] got this young lieutenant, stepped on the wing, walked away a few paces, reached into his overalls, pulled out a cigar—
AM: [gasps] Oh no.
RH: Lit it and went on walking.
[laughter]
RH: And I thought, well there’s, there’s a nerve for you, [laughs] there’s a nerve for you. But on the other side of the coin, I remember, I used to like going out into their dispersal and watch them come in. And, they’d taken off—
[background noise]
RH: And then one of them left the formation, came round, landed and then taxied up to where we were, we were, sort of thing, switched off the engine, pilot got out and he walked over to the, the er. There was a sergeant who was a sort of an engineer mechanic, whatever, and I can’t remember the words after all these years what the pilot said, but he was complaining that there was a fault in the, in the engine, there was something, something wrong, and then he walked away. And I said the sergeant, I said, ‘what do you thinks wrong with that then?’ Now, you’ll have to excuse the language.
AM: It’s alright. [laughs]
RH: He said, ‘nothing he’s just shit scared,’ he said.
[laughter]
AM: Fair enough.
RH: So then we went into Italy, [pause] now tell you, this was a regiment [laughs] with a squadron, and so I knew [emphasis] very well, being, being in the HQ, the squadron had been told they had to go to Crotone landing ground which was sort of under the, that part of the—
AM: The heel.
RH: Italian boot.
AM: The heel.
RH: And of course, and we were following a Canadian division along the coast. They were way, way, way ahead, we never ever saw them. When we got to Crotone landing ground, nothing there at all because it had already been evacuated. Now the same time as the 8th Army landed on the toe and moved up on the north coast, the Canadians were moving along the south coast and the British 1st Airborne Division came in by sea to land at Taranto to push up on the Adriatic coast. And when we were somewhere west of, of Taranto we came across the Airborne guys, and, and they were stopping our convoy. Now in our convoy would be about a dozen three tonne four by four Bedfords, three or four jeeps, two Italian trucks that we had pinched, stolen and, and motorcycles and so forth. Yeah, we spotted these Italian trucks in a little town called Catanzaro down on the toe and the C.O. had seen them, two big Fiat trucks, and so he said to our corporal fitter, engine fitter, ‘do you reckon you can get those going?’ he said, ‘yeah right.’ So sometime around midnight he and another mechanic went out and started them and drove them up the road a bit and then we found them [unclear]
AM: Appropriated them. [laughs]
RH: And then painted them in RAF camouflage and off we went. And then so, yeah, we met the guys with the, with the red berets and from what they were saying is, ‘go careful, keep your heads down because there are German para snipers in the area,’ [laughs] and I thought to myself, we shouldn’t be here, we had no business to be there with just our, just the C.O. You know, woo, let’s just going, you know so think you can imagine we were some kind of Panzer unit or something. And then we drove into Bari, you know that?
AM: Yeah.
RH: Well as we went to Bari, there were people on the pavements, waving and cheering and then passing out bottles of wine.
[laughter]
RH: And I thought, well this can’t be right, and, and where are our guys? I didn’t see any British soldiers at all, and we drove through Bari, and I can’t remember the name of the town now, but about ten miles north of Bari on the main coast road, we came into this little township, and again, [emphasis] people came out and they were waving and saying oh—
AM: Italian civilians you mean?
RH: Yeah, [emphasis] Italian civilians, I thought it’s got to be something, it’s got to be wrong you know, and then the word quickly came down the, the line, the Germans left here this morning.
[laughter]
RH: Well that decided the C.O., all the trucks were turned round. [laughs]
GR: You were the spear guard you were, you were out in front.
[laughter]
RH: We go back to, we went back to Bari, and he looked at his map. Bari airport which was an Italian air force base then, we’ll go there, and we’ll the, we’ll take over the airfield, we had no business—
AM: Is this just you the RAF Regiment, you’re talking here?
RH: Yeah.
AM: Right.
RH: No business at all to be, to be there. And we drove up to the entrance and there were gates and as we drove up, there were armed Italians carrying their funny little carbine rifles, they shut the gate. Now I wasn’t there I didn’t hear what, what was said but they refused to let us in. So, then the order came down the line, ‘get your rifles out men and load them, and stand by the trucks.’ And of course, in our headquarters truck, where are the rifles?
[laughter]
AM: We’re laughing now, but I bet you weren’t laughing at the time.
RH: Scrambling, put ten rounds in the magazine, get out the truck. Meanwhile the Italians, a lot of them, had crossed the road and were in the olive grove in that side, so I thought, God, we are going to be between two lots here, but I think that fact that they saw a hundred guys or more getting out the trucks with their rifles ready, and that decided the Italians to open the gate and let us in.
[laughter]
RH: Yeah, so.
AM: Blimey.
GR: So you’re fighting your way up Italy?
AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up.
RH: Pardon?
AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up.
RH: And the, what do you call it? SWO, he was, he was another sort of, you know, let’s get up there and we’ll, all the rest of it. But, yeah then we went up to Foggia and there were several airfields there which the Germans had used, and yeah, we were, I think on two different airfields there, if I remember rightly, well airfields, landing grounds it was just a single strip. But I can’t remember anything worth reporting there. And by that time, we were subordinate to Desert Air Force, and so you’d get the daily orders from Desert Air Force. And on one they were appealing for air gunners, air gunners, now I thought right—
AM: This is it.
RH: We’ll have a go at this, and so I, you know, I applied and went to Desert Air Force headquarters to get the preliminary medical as such. And, it was, it was quite interesting, because they had my records there and the first officer to examine me, flight lieutenant or squadron leader, doctor or whatever he was, he said, ‘I can’t understand why you were failed in, a year ago,’ he said. He said, ‘there’s nothing wrong,’ and I said, ‘well it says temporarily unfit,’ ‘I can’t see nothing wrong, well, we’ll get a second opinion,’ and he called in the chief, the group captain, and he came in and checked me over, ‘yeah,’ he said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘I can’t think,’ he said, ‘why you were failed a year ago,’ he said, ‘there’s nothing wrong with your, with your heart.’ I used to think afterwards, they failed me because when they looked at my background, they realised in fact, that Mum was a German.
[laughter]
RH: I’ve thought that might be a—
GR: That’s possible.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah, yeah, possible.
RH: Yeah. Because when it came to the aircrew selection board, that was the next thing.
AM: Are you still in Italy at this point?
RH: Yeah, oh yes.
AM: Yeah.
RH: The, the aircrew selection board, and they asked, they asked that question, ‘what if you were ordered to?’ I mean there was no possibility for me to fly from Italy all the way to Cologne, but still, [laughs] They said, ‘what if you were ordered to bomb Germany, bomb something in Germany, you know, you were born there and your Mothers German, what, what if you were ordered to do that?’ [laughs] And I said, ‘I would obey orders.’ [laughs]
[laughter]
RH: Yes, so then there was, I was still with the Regiment Squadron, but I mean they hadn’t, they hadn’t fired a shot in anger and they were anti-aircraft, there was no need for them, so they found a new job for the RAF Regiment. That was to go up to the, our artillery gun line which would be a three, or four miles behind the front line, and by day if our guys were flying and bombing, they would put out smoke indicators to show where our front line was, so that our guys didn’t bomb in it. And by night they would put out flares and I was only there less than, less than, less than a week and but apparently, they did have some casualties later, later on. But, so that was it, now I went to Desert Air Force headquarters, and I had three or four weeks there, and then before I went back to the Middle East. Desert Air Force headquarters was the best posting ever I had in the RAF of a, really good guys to work with, we had an Australian flight lieutenant who was our, the C.O. of what’s called the organisation section where I worked. And he used to share his food parcels with us and he knew I was sort of going through them and I was going on for air, aircrew training and he called me in one day and he said, ‘Harrison,’ now I know this sounds like a line shoot, but he said, ‘Harrison, you’ve done a really good job here,’ he said, ‘we’re very pleased at the way you’re, you’re working.’ That’s because I had a gen, I wasn’t responsible to anyone even though I was only an airman I was doing my own, my own job, sort of thing, which was location of units.
AM: Right.
RH: And briefing people who came in asking questions about you, he said, ‘now why don’t you forget this aircrew thing,’ he said, ‘and I can guarantee,’ he said, in a few months you’ll have your first stripes,’ he said, ‘and I can see you going on from there,’ and I said, ‘no thank you, very much.’ [laughs] And so that was it, now I went back to Egypt
AM: Right. Where did you do your training, your aircrew training then?
RH: Air gunner training.
AM: Air gunner training, where did you do that?
RH: Yeah, a place called El Ballah.
AM: In, in Egypt?
RH: On the canal zone.
AM: Right. And how long, so how long were you training for?
RH: Right. [pause]
[paper rustling]
RH: You can take these away.
AM: Okay.
RH: Later. There were three six-week courses.
AM: Right.
RH: The first one was at 51 Air Gunner Initial Training School, and they’re all the subjects.
AM: Yeah.
RH: Then you had a forty-eight-hour pass into Cairo and then you came for another six weeks—
AM: Okay.
RH: At 12 Elementary Air Gunner School.
AM: Yeah.
RH: From there are all the subjects again.
AM: So, I’m looking at, I’ll, I’ll copy this, and but I’m looking at things like, different gun turrets, the Frazer Nash, the Boulton Paul, the Bristol.
RH: Yeah that’s right.
AM: Pyrotechnics, the Very pistol, the flares, forty flashes. Smoke floats?
RH: Yeah, smoke floats, yeah.
AM: Yeah, what’s a smoke float?
RH: Well it was, about, about that big and the idea was that, that in daylight, over the sea, over, over water, the navigator would ask someone to drop a smoke float, okay? And then the tail gunner, the rear gunner—
AM: Yeah, yeah.
RH: Himself. You see that smoke float and you take a bearing on it with your sight, and there’s sort of a compass ring—
AM: Right.
RH: And you say,’ okay, it’s at so many degrees,’ and then the navigator would count off so many seconds and say, ‘okay take another reading,’ so you take another reading and it shows you your drift.
AM: Right.
RH: The difference between the two readings.
AM: Yep.
RH: Yeah, smoke float by day, yeah.
AM: Oh.
RH: And that’s 13 Air Gunner school where you finally get to fly.
AM: I’m looking at this one because I was, I was going to ask you, what were, what did you actually train in? And we’ve got Avro Anson’s?
RH: Yes, it’s up there, somewhere.
AM: One of those up there? Dinghy drill. Did you all have individual dinghies at that point?
RH: No, seven-man dinghies.
AM: Because—It was a seven-man dinghy. Right.
RH: Then we trained in, in the Suez Canal, and the canal was only a couple of miles away from the, from the air field, so the instructor would tow an inflated dinghy out into the middle of the canal. And that was another, another thing and I’ve never come across it before and I’ve mentioned it to other aircrew types and they’ve never heard of this before. You had to swim fifty yards [emphasis] and if you did not swim, if you couldn’t swim that fifty yards you failed.
AM: That was it, you were out.
RH: You failed the course. So, I mean you had a life jacket on which was a damn nuisance believe me if you’ve got a Mae West and you try swim. [laughs] So you went out, two of you at a time, went out to a dinghy and righted it.
AM: Oops.
RH: Sorry. Righted it, then got into it, and then when the instructor was satisfied, when you got out you pulled the dinghy over you so it was upside down for the next pair.
AM: Right, and swam out from under it.
RH: To go out, yeah.
AM: I can’t imagine what the canal was full of?
RH: Oh yeah, [emphasis] yeah. Now and then whistles are blowing and everyone would have to get out if a ship came by. [laughs]
AM: Theres, there’s crocodiles isn’t there?
RH: No, no.
AM: Is there not? No. Alright then.
RH: There’s far more—
AM: I was thinking about horrible [unclear]
RH: Theres worse stuff floating in the canal, believe me.
AM: I can imagine.
[laughter]
AM: So, you’ve done your training.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Then what?
RH: Then we’ve went to [paper rustling] from Egypt—
AM: Hmm, hmm.
RH: To Palestine.
AM: Right.
RH: For the O T U.
AM: Right. [pause] So, I’m looking now at the, it was the 76 Operational Training Unit.
RH: That’s right.
AM: And you were on Wellington medium bombers at this point?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Tail gunner you said you were, weren’t you?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Tail end Charlie.
RH: Yes, we formed up of, as you may know, you know, the people weren’t detailed, we all assembled in a hangar.
AM: You did the crewing up.
RH: And we sort of—
AM: No other end.
RH: Pardon?
AM: No other end, is an expression—
RH: Is it?
AM: An expression, I’ve heard.
RH: Yeah well. And Joe, the other gunner, he, he eventually found a pilot who wanted two gunners, and so we met this Eddy who came from the Midlands, and he said to us, ‘who’s best at aircraft recognition?’ and Joe said, ‘he is,’ pointing to me.
[laughter]
RH: ‘So, right you are the rear gunner then.’
AM: So that was it? That was how that was decided. But then, so when was heavy Conversion Unit, were you still in Palestine at that point?
RH: No. We went back to Egypt for it.
AM: Back to Egypt for that, right.
RH: That was only four weeks I think at that point.
AM: So this is the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit, into B-24 Liberators.
RH: B-24 Liberator, yeah. At least we got into a decent aircraft.
AM: Yeah. What, how many crew were on that? Was there seven or more? Seven.
RH: Well, seven. We trained as a crew of seven but operationally on the squadron, you carried an extra gunner, who manned the two waist guns.
AM: Right, so there was waist guns on there?
RH: There was also these, yeah, I did two or three [unclear] trips as a beam gunner, but you were the odd job. I’ll come to that when we get to the squadron then.
AM: Alright, okay. So, carry on—
RH: Well, [unclear, interviewer speaks over]
AM: Tell me about that and what happened and any stories about the conversion unit course or on to what happened after that?
RH: I can only think of a funny story on that. Sometimes, the nose wheel of the Liberator wouldn’t come down. And so, someone would go from the flight deck, for landing on the flight deck was a pilot, the engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and top gunner, six of them all on the flight deck in that area. If the nose wheel didn’t come down, there was a, a drill for it. One of them would go back into the nose and help to pull the thing down. Well, we’d been on a night exercise, and Joe our top gunner, a Lancashire lad, he always had intercom trouble. He was an electrician by trade, but he was a real jinx [emphasis] when it came to in, in, intercom. And the nose wheel hadn’t come down, so I mean I’m hearing everything on intercom, so the skipper said to, I think it was the bomb aimer Ron, ‘Ron go on down into the nose right and see if you can do it,’ and so Ron goes down there. Then the next thing I here, Ron’s on the intercom, ’no, I can’t do it and I need some help,’ ‘ah yeah, okay,’ and so the navigator is sent down. So, now there’s two of them in the nose trying to pull it—
AM: Yank the thing, yeah.
RH: And get the wheel down, and then they come back on the intercom, ‘no I can’t do it,’ so skipper, Eddy turns to Taffy our engineer and says, ‘Taff, go down and sort it, will you?’ So, Taff gets out of his seat and goes down. Theres a hatch in the flight deck that goes down into the nose. Now, Joe the top gunner, knows that the nose wheel hasn’t come down, and then his intercom goes dead. And one after another he sees the bomb aimer—
AM: Oh God.
RH: The navigator and the engineer all disappearing through that hatch down below, and what does he think? He thinks they’re all baling out. So, his seat release is a wire handle and he pulls that, drops out of his turret, goes straight through the hatch into the end of the bomb bay.
AM: Oh no.
GR: [unclear] [laughs]
RH: He just had a few bruises that was all.
AM: I was going to say, I thought you were going to say he went right through and had to pull his parachute. [laughs]
GR: Well, the thing is to anybody listening, obviously Lancaster, Halifax, B-17 all land, and land tail down, but the B-24 was one that landed, and landed with its nose up.
RH: Nose wheel
GR: The same, yeah. So, it landed, straight—
RH: Yes.
GR: As opposed to sitting back on the tail, so when you were on about the nose wheel coming down that’s—
AM: That’s why it’s important.
GR: Yeah
RH: Well, I— [unclear, interviewer speaks over]
GR: In fact that was the only bomber that, that—
RH: Yeah.
GR: The only, only four engine bomber that, that happened.
RH: If I remember rightly in HCU and I mean, I knew guys who were ahead of me and so forth, and Norman, and he came back and he came up to the truck as we were getting off it, and he said, ‘have you heard Mick Berry’s gone?’ Now, Mick Berry had been a corporal armourer and he was in our tent at gunnery school—
AM: Right.
RH: And he taught us more about the machine guns than the instructors. After all, that was his, his trade, he was a, I can still remember, he was a great [emphasis] man, he really was a good lad. And there they had, had crash landed and burst into flames, and Mick was in the mid er, top turret. Now that was held by, I think it was four bolts and it was a common fault that bang [emphasis] on, on the deck and that turret would drop out, and he was trapped and he couldn’t get out, yeah.
GR: Oh God.
RH: Mick Berry, he’s buried in the cemetery near Cairo.
AM: Oh, right. How big is it? I’m looking at a model of the Liberator here. How big is it in comparison then to the Halifax and the, and the Lancaster?
RH: [unclear] it’s a hundred and ten foot wingspan, the Liberator and the Hal, well Lanc, well it’s just over a hundred feet, in total.
AM: I was going to say, it looks a bit bigger to me.
RH: Yeah.
AM: On the, on the model, I know [unclear]
GR: Well at the same scales, they’re actually, the Liberators on a par with the Lancaster, probably slightly bigger.
AM: I’m showing my ignorance now, is it American?
GR: The B-24 was originally was an American bomber.
RH: Oh yeah.
AM: Oh.
RH: Yeah, consolidated to the aircraft company, yeah. [pause] Nice aeroplane to fly because after flying in the Wellingtons as the rear or tail, tail gunner, the heating system, well, didn’t really exist. And, in O.T.U. going out on a flight at night, and we’d six hours, six and a half hour flights sort of thing in freezing [emphasis] weather and you’d have long johns and, and then your shirt and your pants, and so forth. And your wool, pullover, woolly, the battle dress, then over the battle dress, the, an inner flying suit—
AM: Right.
RH: Which was sort of kapok something or other, brown silky, you put that on. Then over that, the outer flying suit which wasn’t padded at all, then over that your life jacket, then over that your parachute harness. Now, some of the gunners at O.T.U. there was only one entry hatch and that was in the nose, so the guys used to take their kit with them and get dressed when they got down into the fuselage. But I had an arrangement with the navigator, and the bomb aimer, and the armourer who would turn the turret of our aircraft to a hundred and eighty degrees, so I could get in from the outside. And they would lift [emphasis] me up into the turret, and then when we got back I would turn the turret a hundred and eighty degrees, open the doors, fall out—
AM: We’re talking about the rear turret then?
GR: Yeah.
RH: Pardon?
AM: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. And they would—
GR: Tumble out.
RH: And they would get me out.
GR: [unclear]
RH: The advantage of the Wimpy of course, and the rear, and with the Lanc and the British aircraft wasn’t it, you opened the doors as a tail gunner and you just bale out and go backwards—
AM: You just flipped out.
RH: Couldn’t do that on the Liberator.
AM: So, we’ve done Heavy Conversion Unit, you’ve got your crew, you’ve done your training with your crew, when was—
RH: I can’t think of any incidents.
AM: When was your first operation then?
RH: In February 45.
AM: Right, and where, where was it too?
RH: That’s a very good question, I think—
AM: Germany somewhere?
RH: No, I, no we were in Italy.
AM: Oh, oh.
RH: Yep, I think that’s just March, isn’t it?
GR: That’s just March, yeah.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Can you remember what it was like going up? Right because now you’re doing it for real instead of training? Did it make a difference?
RH: It was just a job. I think, you know guys of our age at that stage of the war, nine, you know, coming up to the end of the war, and you, I can’t think of the term really, indoctrinated or whatever, and you are used to it, you are used to it.
AM: So, were you scared?
RH: No I wasn’t, no.
AM: No.
RH: Because I didn’t have enough up there to be scared.
[laughter]
GR: Am I right in assuming that the, the bomber force in Italy at the time, was doing things like marshalling yards—
RH: Yeah.
GR: In northern Italy.
RH: Yeah.
GR: Austria.
RH: Yeah.
GR: Southern Germany? I think that there was a couple of trips.
AM: I think, yeah, I thought, I thought you went to southern Germany?
RH: No, we there were, I never went on a trip into Bavaria.
GR: But that was some of their, their area of operations.
RH: Yeah.
GR: There was the northern Italy marshalling yards, the Turin’s, that sort of thing, Verona, to try and stop—
RH: It was mainly the railway lines coming down through Bremen.
GR: Yes.
RH: And also down to Trieste and so forth.
GR: Which was the main supplier [unclear]
RH: And also, we, yeah, we bombed, what was it? Monfalcone, a little port, Ancona and Assa [?] yeah, they were, they were where the Germans had ships and used to supply their troops by night by running these boats along the coast, sort of thing.
GR: Did you normally fly with an escort? With a—
RH: On daylight, yeah.
GR: Daylights, yeah.
RH: Yeah, yeah. We had the Americans.
GR: Yeah.
RH: American B-51’s.
GR: Tuskegee, Tuskegee airmen?
RH: I don’t know who they were.
GR: They, they were the black—
AM: Yeah.
RH: I remember on one, on a trip to Monfalcone in the daylight, I mean we didn’t fly in formation, I mean our guys didn’t know how to fly in formation I never, not on heavies. And it just the usual stream, and so there were, sort of sixty, eighty aircraft in a stream. And we picked up the American escort, this was at the top end of the Adriatic, Trieste.
AM: Yep, yep.
RH: Right, it was the port next to Trieste.
AM: Yep.
RH: And, we picked up the escort and it was coming up, and our wireless op was listening out on their frequency, there had to be some sort of contact for, for, I didn’t hear this. But I remember we’d said, said afterwards, he said, ‘when they saw us coming,’ he said, and they were [laughs] saying about look at those sort of God damned limeys they’re not in formation, you know, all that how do we protect this lot and all the rest of it. [laughs]
AM: It’s like herding sheep.
[laughter]
RH: Yeah.
AM: Or herding—
GR: Are the Luftwaffe putting in much of an appearance?
RH: No.
GR: Towards that stage of the war?
RH: No, no.
AM: Were they not?
RH: No, they had, they were 109’s on the Italian, northern Italian airfields, but I think most of those were in what was called the Italian Republican Airforce.
GR: Yeah.
RH: You know, Mussolini’s lot, so you did see them, you did see them. Right and I remember seeing a strange sight one night as we were coming away from wherever it was in northern Italy. It was all a tremendous glare of course and, and looking out I saw these three Lib’s flying in and they were in [laughs] formation more or less and then at the back end of the [unclear] was a Bf 109. [laughs]
GR: Oh.
[laughter]
AM: Following you.
RH: Following the—
AM: Did you ever get shot at?
RH: With flak.
AM: With flak, but not, not as Gary said, not from a fighter?
RH: No, no, I saw, yeah there was a, we were 70 Squadron, 37 Squadron operated from the same airfield. I mean I didn’t know who they were, were at the time but and coming back at night from somewhere, Austria I think it might, might have been, the, and then suddenly seeing green tracer which I knew it was German. And then red tracer [laughs] sort of thing, and then ‘woof’ [emphasis] up went the Lib and down he went, yeah and that was 37 Squadron. Liberator, all lost.
AM: All gone. Did you ever shoot your guns at anything?
RH: No.
AM: Never?
RH: No, no you even if, and we were tailed one night by a fighter coming back from Trento I think it was, Trento, Trento marshalling yards you know, and I just reported it to the, to the crew, it was a 109. And he was sitting out and sort of, sort of four hundred yards or so away, you’d just see them occasionally with the glare in the background but he didn’t close and I certainly wouldn’t fire at him because it would show where we were.
GR: Were you were.
AM: Other people have said that, why would you fire—
RH: Yeah. Quite.
AM: And you know, mark yourself out to them.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Effectively.
RH: Yeah. Yeah, no you never, never fire unless you’re fired at. Okay?
AM: Yeah. I think, have you got any more questions?
GR: No, no.
AM: How many operations did you do in the end?
RH: Bombing, eighteen.
AM: Eighteen.
RH: And then we converted to supply, as the war was coming to an end—
AM: Okay.
RH: And the bombing stopped, and then they put some sort of racking inside the bomb bay so we could carry four-gallon cans of petrol and things like that.
AM: Right. So, what did you do between the war ending and demob?
RH: Er, yeah, we carried, you see although the war ended we’d already converted to transport.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And so, yeah for two or three weeks after VE Day we were flying, we were talking up supplies up to the north of Italy. And then after that they converted the bomb bay so you could carry bodies, troops, we could carry twenty-two.
AM: Live bodies?
RH: Yeah.
AM: Live ones.
RH: Twenty-two in the bomb, bomb bay. Poor blokes, [emphasis] I mean they just had to go down into the, down onto the catwalk and then climb over the back of these seats and then sit down. And there was the aircraft fuselage wall, just there sort of thing, and they had to sit there and on flights back to the UK, it took six and a half hours.
AM: You can’t imagine, can you?
GR: No.
AM: Were these troops or did you take any prisoner of war back?
RH: No, no—
AM: It was troops.
RH: These were troops. The ones we were flying back were due to be retrained and reformed to go out to Burma. These were the, I remember, you see they didn’t need the air gunners as such, so you became an odd bod sort of looking after these soldiers and so forth. And I remember on one occasion we were flying back with some guardsmen from a guard’s regiment, and the truck arrived and this lieutenant got out with his twenty odd bods. And they piled around and he said to our skipper, ‘we were all NCO’s, we were all senior NCO’s, he said, ‘have you anything to say?’ to the men sort of thing, and he said, ‘no.’ Since I was Harrison, generally I was called Harry, and so Ken said, ‘now Harry will look after you,’ well that wasn’t good enough for the, for the lieutenant. He turned around and he said, ‘when you are in the aircraft I don’t want you putting your hands out and grabbing any wires or anything.’
[laughter]
RH: So I saw them on board and we were flying up to Peterborough, Croughton, just south, it was an American base at that time and I used to bring them out one at a time and with the beam hatches open they could have a smoke—
AM: Right.
RH: Sitting there. And I think it was one of the last guys, came out and he sat on the other beam gunners seat, and he didn’t have intercom of course, we could only talk to each other by shout, shouting really, and he shouted, he said, ‘do we go through customs?’ he said, I said, ‘well I don’t.’ Crewmen didn’t, you just went straight through, [laughs] I said, ‘you, yes you will have to go through customs,’ and I said, ‘why?’ and he pulled back the sleeve of his battle dress and [laughs] there were watches—
[laughter]
RH: On, on there. And I said, oh, how did you get those?’ and they disarmed an SS unit or something and so, and relieved them of all, of all their odds and ends. And er, and then he reached into his blouse, fiddled about and pulled out a pistol, and I said to him, I said, ‘I don’t think you’ll get through with that,’ he said, ‘I’ve got another one in my kit bag.’
[laughter]
AM: I thought you were going to say you took them through for him.
RH: No, no, no.
AM: If you didn’t have to go through customs.
GR: They’re here.
AM: [laughs]
RH: No, after, after we’d landed and I got my travel warrant, and had a forty-eight-hour pass to get back to Bristol.
AM: Right.
RH: Or near Bristol. And so, it was late evening when I caught a train from Peterborough to Kings Cross, and Kings Cross to Paddington, and Paddington to Temple Meads, then Bristol. Which, I arrived about seven o’clock in the morning, then I had to walk over to the bus station and get a bus, and I arrived at my parents’ house I think, yeah it must have been about nine o’clock in the morning. Knocked them up, then I had, since it was a Saturday, I had to leave next day, just after lunch—
AM: To get back.
RH: To get back, yeah, so my forty-eight-hour pass in fact was about thirty.
AM: In the middle.
RH: Oh, so, anything else I can help with?
AM: Yes, this is, just out of interest this question. So, your Mum was German, how was she treated during the war?
RH: Yeah, okay.
AM: Were people okay with her?
RH: Yeah, you see we were, when I say Dad went in, into the civil service, he did, he and a lot of other guys including the major commanding who is based and so forth. Some of them were sort of even if they hadn’t given their time were said, okay you’re finished, because now you’re going to an establishment in Gloucestershire where you’ll be training police, fire, in what today are called civil defence duties. And so, you know, my environment from a child and all the way through to the time I left home was, was semi military because all the other guys were like Dad, they all ex-army.
AM: Right.
RH: They were all ex-army and some of them I remember when we lived at Salisbury, I remember a couple of German women coming there to visit Mum and they were again were wives of soldiers and so forth. But, no and of course we had relatives in Cologne and at the time of the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, we had a telegram which came through the Swiss Red Cross, from Mums sister Gerda, in Cologne, asking if we were all okay. [laughs]
AM: Were they all okay, did they ask to—
RH: No.
AM: Did your relatives not survive?
RH: No, no they were, they lived, well as most Germans do in the cities, they live in an apartment block and the block was, was—
AM: Blown up.
RH: Hit, and Uncle Johan as he was, he died of phosphorus burns. And my aunt and my two cousins, saw one cousin, they were evacuated into, into central Germany. The other one, my, he was about a year or so younger than me and had been like you know like all the rest of them in the Hitler movement and so forth. And then when he was sixteen I think, he volunteered for part time duty on a flak battery, and then when he was seventeen he became a full-time member of the Luftwaffe [emphasis] on a flak battery. When I met him, you know after, we used to have a joke about it.
[laughter]
GR: That’s a, well at least you had the opportunity.
AM: At least you never shot at me.
RH: Never fired at me because you were in, on the Rhineland and in the Ruhr, yeah
AM: Yeah, Happy Valley, the Ruhr.
RH: Pardon?
AM: Happy Valley, I’ve heard the Ruhr described as.
RH: Yeah, yeah. But they’re all, my cousins and my aunt are not, they are all dead now so, no contact.
GR: What I’ve just found amazing is, you’ve saying like yeah, during the Battle of Britain, and Bristol was being blitzed and all that, and a family in Germany sends a telegram [laughs] to a family in England saying are you okay?
AM: Are you okay?
RH: Yeah.
GR: And that’s just like, that’s incredible.
AM: Ordinary people in the war.
GR: Yeah.
AM: As opposed to the Nazis and all the rest of it.
GR: But the fact is, so you are in Germany, and you’ve got Hitler, yeah, we’re going to invade Britain and do this, do that, but you can send a telegram. So, it goes from Germany oh yes, certainly a lot of it went through Switzerland through the Red Cross.
AM: [inaudible as speaking at same time]
RH: Yeah.
GR: But you got the telegram in England, are you okay? Is everything alright?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: What did you do then after the war then, after you’d been demobbed?
RH: I became a civil servant.
AM: Which bit? Which, which department?
RH: The Home, Home office—
AM: Oh.
RH: Was the governing training department but again [coughs] it was, it was, it civil defence training I sort of followed on, I and my brother we were lucky having a father in it. [laughs]
AM: Not what you know, but who you know.
RH: Yeah, well yeah, well you had to go through selection board.
AM: There was always full fair and open competition and all that, allegedly weren’t it. I’m just looking at this, the warrant on the wall here, which is?
RH: The what?
AM: I’m looking for the year, 1962.
RH: That was commission—
AM: You became a, well you tell me what it is?
RH: Yeah, I was commissioned in the volunteer reserve training branch here.
AM: Ah ha.
RH: The Air Training Corps.
AM: As a pilot officer.
RH: Yeah. Eventually I was a flight lieutenant.
AM: Yeah, crikey. Well I think on that note we’ll switch off.
RH: Have you been recording all—
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Harrison
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Format
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01:07:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisonR151116
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Civilian
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Italy--Sicily
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1965
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Harrison was born in Cologne in 1924 to a German mother and English father. His desire to be aircrew was thwarted initially by a failed medical, something he later surmises could be on account of his mother’s nationality. A member of the Air Raid Precautions, Home Guard and Air Training Corps, he was called up in 1942. He was posted to RAF Tempsford, base for Special Duty Squadrons 161 and 138, who dropped supplies and people for the resistance. In 1943 he was posted to Sicily in the RAF Regiment Squadron for anti-parachute troop duties and then to Italy. He successfully applied to join the Desert Air Force and had air gunner training at El Ballah in Egypt. He went to Palestine as a rear gunner on a Wellington for the Operational Training Unit, followed by the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit in Egypt with B-24 . His first operation was in Italy. After VE Day, they transported supplies and troops. After the war, he worked as a civil servant in the Home Office. In 1962, he was commissioned as a pilot officer in the Air Training Corps and eventually became a flight lieutenant
Creator
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Annie Moody
Gary Rushbrooke
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Sally Coulter
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
138 Squadron
161 Squadron
70 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bombing
civil defence
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Operational Training Unit
RAF Tempsford
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Raettig, Dennis
Dennis William Raettig
Dennis W Raettig
D W Raettig
D Raettig
Description
An account of the resource
72 items. The collection concerns the wartime service of Leading Aircraftman Dennis William Raettig (b. 1920, 1136657 Royal Air Force). Joining the Royal Air Force reserve in 1941 he trained as a flight mechanic (Engines) before being posted to 104 Squadron (Wellingtons) at RAF Driffield. This squadron number was later changed to 158 Squadron flying Halifax at RAF East Moor, followed by moves to RAF Rufford and Lisset. The collection consists of a memoir, correspondence with family and acquaintances, family history, service and personal documentation, lucky charms,personal items, cap, boots, squadron tie, research on bombing in Hull as well as photographs of air and ground crew and aircraft. It also includes an oral history interview with Joan Raettig (Dennis Raettig's wife).
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sue Burn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-23
2016-07-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Raettig, DW
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
104/158 Squadron Bomber Command
[photograph of a Wellington]
I started my Air Force life as a Flt./Mechanic (Engines) at Squires Gate, Blackpool, in January 1941. Everyone remembers their service number – in my case 1136657 – and their first months in the forces. The endless marching around, inspections and going for your ‘jabs’ – mine took place in a church hall [italics] ‘Suffer Little Children” [/italics] was written above the stage. Not having been inoculated before, I didn’t really know what to expect, but at the front of the queue grown men were fainting even before they got to the doctor! A punch in the middle of the back by the orderlies seemed to be the cure – it certainly cured me!
It is possible that I am the longest serving member of 158 Squadron, posted to B Flight, 104 Squadron, 4 Group Bomber Command, at Driffield, in the 2nd week of August, 1941. Driffield aerodrome was built in the early 30’s, with the usual living quarters and 4 hangers – there were no runways, just a large grass field, the standard for an airfield in those pre-war days. The aerodrome had previously been bombed - a barrack block and a hanger had been badly [inserted] damaged [/inserted], it was rumoured that several personnel had perished.
104 Squadron was composed of 2 Flights of Vickers Wellington Mk. 2 bombers, powered by Rolls Royce Merlin X engines. The airframe was of geodetic construction, covered by a fabric which was stitched on with a very strong twine. It was designed by Barnes Wallis, who a few years earlier, had been involved with the airship R100 which was built at near-by Howden. The aircraft were mainly disbursed around the airfield, but some were parked in a field across a road which skirted the ‘drome. There was also a Blind Approach Training Flight, with 2 Whitley [inserted] bombers [/inserted], a Fairey Battle used for target towing for air-to-air firing; and most unexpectedly – an Autogiro – definitely not a helicopter! (used for weather observations over the North Sea) I serviced it on 2 or 3 occasions; and finally 4 Westland Lysanders, which were attached to a nearby army unit.
It was during October of that year (1941) that we were confined to camp. A number of aircrew and groundcrew were given 48 hours leave and the rest of us told that we had to prepare the aircraft for a special mission. We were later told that they were all going to Malta and spares would also be loaded on the ‘planes. As soon as I heard of the destination I volunteered to go (due to an accident, my parents were stranded on the island – and later Egypt) I was told that if any of the groundcrew failed to return from leave I would be considered. As it turned out one person failed to return on time and I was actually on the ‘plane when he turned up. [deleted] It was to be an [/deleted]
Aircraft and crews were soon replaced but it was around this time that U Uncle ([deleted] the [/deleted] [inserted] a [/inserted] dual controlled training aircraft) crash landed. This was my time to take over servicing the ‘plane and as new aircrews arrived they all took their turn on the ‘circuits and bumps’ training. However, a few days later I was reading D.R.O’s (remember Daily Routine Orders?) One paragraph read (roughly) that anybody who could successfully design a means of hiding the exhausts on the Merlin engine would receive an award of £200 (the stubs glowed red hot and were thought to be an easy target for enemy fighters). I thought no more about it until someone came from our office and told me that U would be the aircraft to test any of the designs and that I had to move my ‘plane to the parking area across the road from the main airfield and to take reasonable precautions in case of fire. That afternoon I got the tractor to tow U across the road to the parking area
Page 1
[page break]
[deleted] Across the road] [/deleted] and [deleted] I [/deleted] surrounded it with as many fire extinguishers as I could get hold of. The following day the first test arrived in the shape of a cowling to be fitted on the starboard engine, on the inboard [inserted] side [/inserted] so that I could see it all the time I was testing. After fitting the cowling to the engine, I started up the engine and waited for the oil pressure g[inserted]u[/inserted]age to ‘break’, but it was obvious from the way exhaust gases came out that it was a failure. Over a period of several days more were tested until one passed the ground test, so I asked for an aircrew to fly the aircraft. When the crew came out and I explained what the test was they refused to fly it – well any sane person would, wouldn’t they? However, we came to a compromise by agreeing that just the pilot and I would fly as low as possible within the confines of the airfield – which we did – it was a case of ‘Down quick’. On the third occasion of a test flight the airframe mechanic asked if he could go up as he wanted to do a check. I told him no it was too dangerous, however he said it was fairly important for him to check the wing in flight, so the three of us went on the test. Very quickly it was a case of ‘down, down’ both from me and the airframe mech.. Apart from the exhaust burning the cowling, the starboard wing had ‘ballooned’ due to the cord stitching the fabric had worn away. It was all down to the skill of the pilot, he quickly feathered the prop., somehow managing to control the landing despite having a damaged wing, and landed safely. However, all our troubles were not quite over – having had to cut the starboard engine the hydraulic pump no longer worked the flaps or the brakes. So the Pilot’s problem was how to stop the aircraft from crashing into two 500 gal. petrol bowsers on the perimeter track just in front of the hanger. Fortunately, it stopped about 20 yards away. That was the end of U Uncle – the next day it was loaded onto a ‘Queen Mary’ lorry back to the Vickers factory. The problem of the glow from the exhaust system took a little longer – a few days later we received some cans of a specially thick red paint developed by I.C.I., with instructions to paint it thickly on to the exhaust stubs, which was duly applied. When the engines were run the heat turned the red paint black – problem solved.
… and now we are 158 Squadron
As autumn turned to winter it became obvious that without runways, the aircraft would be in difficulties with take-off and landing. At one stage we helped to lay a steel wire ‘runway’, which was duly tested but considered unworkable, so it had been decided some of the aircraft would operate from R.A.F. Pocklington, at the foot of the Yorkshire Wolds.
Due to the lack of living quarters, some of the ground crew were based at nearby R.A.F. Melbourne (which was in the early stages of being built) and bussed to and from Pocklington every day. The bus used to drop us at the end of a short lane to our billet, where a farmer had conveniently (for us) built a potato pie to protect his crop from being frosted. There were about 15 of us and as each one passed the pie they helped them selves to a potato, then on to the cookhouse for tea. One of the gang would talk to the cook, while one of us grabbed a packet of margarine, which we soon found on a shelf at the other end of the counter. Later in the evening in front of a red-hot stove we baked and ate our baked potatoes – never have they tasted better! However, as they [sic] saying goes, all good things must come to an end, as an officer arrived one evening and ‘tore a strip off us’
It was during mid February at Pocklington that we were informed that we were now 158 Squadron and the recognition letters on the sides of the aircraft changed from EP to NP, so as we prepared for operations the airframe mechanic did the necessary alterations to the lettering. That evening the aircraft flew with the new insignia and more importantly, all returned safely from that first operation of the new squadron. 2 or 3 other raids were carried out from Pocklington with the loss of 1 aircraft.
The new squadron then returned to our own base at Driffield, and for the next 3 months was engaged in many raids on enemy targets in which many brave men lost their lives. Some however, were captured and for the rest of the war interned in P.O.W. camps. During early May, we were informed that the squadron was to move to another station and be equipped with Halifax Mk 2 Bombers. In due course we moved to different stations to learn more about these ‘planes.
About 20 of us went to RAF Leeming. The first question any sensible airman should ask on arriving at a new station is “What’s the grub like?” – the answer here at Leeming was mind blowing – pictures of a pre-war summer day, mother bringing a cool green salad to the table in the back garden and as a special treat a slice of [italics] pork-pie [/italics] – here the dream ended. Pork Pies (about 3” diam.) were available for breakfast, dinner, tea and supper at this station. You soon got your fill of them – it was a few years before I tasted another! On the whole our stay was like a holi-
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day as we had no responsibilities and the weather was fine enough for some of us to swim in a small river at the edge of the ‘drome – including my friend Doug. Waddie, who not having any swimming trunks decided to hide behind some bushes and wrap his loins (ahem!) in 2 large handkerchiefs, jumped into the fast running river and immediately lost his dignity much to the amusement of a group of WAAF. I quickly picked up his towel and threw it across, but unfortunately my aim wasn’t good and it landed in the water – there was a great cheer as Doug. revealed all, to retrieve his towel. Shortly after this dramatic incident I was ordered back to Driffield, as I went down the narrow road from the Leeming ‘drome I noticed a fairly new factory with a notice ‘Pork Pie Products’ – so if any of you get posted there, you know what to expect!
Arriving back at Driffield, I was told that I had to report to the Group Captain. On entering his office he told me that he was as mystified as me as to what was going on but I had to check all the remaining aircraft and await further orders. One of my airframe friends joined me later in the day, and together we inspected the planes – there were only 8 or 9 Wellingtons left of the original squadron plus the Whitleys of the B.A.T. flight who had [deleted] there [/deleted] [inserted] their [/inserted] own service crews. On the next day more tradesmen arrived and we serviced those few planes. The following day, the 30th May 1942, was to be an important day in Bomber Command history. We were told to prepare the planes for a special raid. Regardless of trade we all helped each other – whether it was filling up with fuel or bombing-up and finally the aircrews came out started the engines and where [sic] off. It was an amazing sight, as squadron after squadron flew overhead for quite a long time. It was of course the first 1,000 bomber raid. Target Cologne. Two days later the planes were again prepared for ops. This time the target was Essen. That was the last Wellington bombing raid from Driffield by 158 Squadron. A few days later we rejoined the main squadron at the new station…
R.A.F. EAST MOOR
[photograph of a Halifax Mk 2 Aircraft]
Halifax Mk 2 4 Rolls-Royce Merlin XXII
About 9 miles north of York, close to the hamlet of Sutton-on-the-Forest, East Moor was one if the new breed of satellite stations, with well dispersed living quarters in the wooded areas.
The first days were filled with lectures mainly about the new aircraft and one I particularly remember was about security. After this meeting 2 or 3 of us decided to go down to the local ‘watering hole’, but just as we were leaving I was called back to ‘see in’ B Flight’s first new Halifax bomber. About half an hour later I went to meet my friends at the village pub and I saw them talking to a couple of civilians who on my entry, quickly left the premises. I was surprised at their quick exit and asked the lads what had happened. On being told that they had been asking questions about what type of aircraft etc., I asked the landlord permission to use his ‘phone and called the civil police and our own service police. On returning to camp we were interrogated by our police, but heard nothing further.
During the next few days, aircrew and groundcrew were arriving to bring the squadron up to strength. Again I was allocated to P, and was quickly introduced to the new aircrew as they came to test their ‘plane. When the crew came for their next flight I asked the pilot for permission for my new assistant (straight from training school) and I to go up for our first flight in a Halifax. We all climbed on board, and had a very pleasant flight on a lovely summer’s day – except the pilot didn’t warn us that he was going to do a few tests. The first inkling was when the outer starboard engine was stopped then feathered, next the starboard-inner, the nose dropped slightly and was corrected by the pilot, then the port-inner was stopped and immediately restarted when the nose dropped. Test over, and as the pilot lowered the undercarriage preparing to land, a horn sounded, not having heard this before, I asked the Flight Engineer what it was for. “It’s a warning to indicate that the landing-gear hasn’t locked” was the response. The pilot was receiving instructions over the radio. Climbing higher, he went into a fairly steep dive as he attempted to lower the under-
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carriage – still the horn sounded. After a few more attempts he was told to use-up some fuel, then land. All aircrew were ordered to crash positions between the main spars, while my assistant and I lay on the floor with our arms protecting our heads. It was a great relief when I heard the screech of tyres as we touched down – the horn continued all the time till we got to our base. Later, a ground check was made and an electrical fault was found on the system.
Towards the end of the first month at East Moor, planes were prepared for a raid which we learned later was the 3rd 1,000 bomber raid. This time against Bremen. During that month of June several raids were carried out and any loss of aircraft was keenly felt throughout the squadron, partly because we were such a small unit – 2 Flights – 16 aircraft maximum. [inserted] One [deleted] new [/deleted] innovation to our routeen [sic] was the introduction of a heater van [/inserted]
The following story may seem incredible, but it actually happened. All I can assume is that a certain Canadian F/Sgt. rear gunner found a cheap way of getting someone else to pay for his beer – My aircraft was based close to a narrow country road and one afternoon I was working by myself, on top of one of the engines changing plugs when I heard children laughing close by. Looking down I was horrified to see a lady and two young children (about 4 or 5 years old) sat by the side of the plane with a tablecloth spread out with plates of sandwiches, then from behind I heard a man call his wife to ‘come and look at this’. Turning round I saw a man looking into the aircraft though the entrance hatch. I told him to leave the field as he was trespassing. He said he wasn’t trespassing as he had arranged to meet his friend Flt/Sgt - - who had promised to take them on a flight and if I wasn’t careful he would report me to his friend and get me put on a charge. This was getting very silly, so I told him to go to ‘that building over there’ pointing to the guardhouse and they would get hold of his friend for him. So off he went. I don’t know what happened but he never came back for his free flight. Warning! If any of you get called up again (there’s no knowing the way things are just now, they are short of recruits) don’t try the free drinks trick on me, unless you pass me a bottle or two.
[italics] It was around this time that a Group Captain from a neighbouring ‘drome insisted on holding an inspection of all personnel once a month (I must have been born with 2 left feet!). His name was Gp. Captain John Whitley and he was later to become very important to me [/italics].
The Squadron was heavily engaged in August and suffered many losses, but one cheery note was that P.O. Chambers, who had been with the Squadron since the Driffield days, finished his tour of ops.. September was also a very busy month but towards the end we were less busy and I ‘volunteered’ (you, you & you!) for a special mission, in late October. Actually, there were six or so groundcrew, an MT driver and a bus. The instructions were to drive 10 miles south of York on the A19, open the secret instructions and carry on from there. Arriving at the 10 mile spot, the secret instructions were opened. We were to proceed the RAF Harwell and to prepare our Halifax aircraft for [underlined] Glider towing [/underlined]. As we were driven down we discussed the implications and came to the conclusion that someone ‘high up’ didn’t know what he was talking about – not unusual! As far as we knew, none of our aircrews had any training for towing gliders. However, on to Harwell, or so we thought, but leaving the road directions to the driver, it was a little surprising when we entered a small town whose main claim to fame was a statue of a lady riding a cock horse (what ever that is). Fortunately, one of the party knew the area, so beating a hasty retreat – (which included reversing into the statue) and sped like the devil in case anyone had noticed our arrival). We were late reaching the gates of RAF Harwell, only to be told that the operation had been cancelled – and no we couldn’t be admitted to the camp. Our driver pointed out that he had already driven over 8 hours and wouldn’t drive any further, so we had no alternative but to find somewhere to stay for the night. Fortunately there was a farmer near by who agreed to let us stay the night in his stables and led the horses into a field. We had a restless (and smelly) night and set off early next morning for our journey back.
On arrival, we were so exhausted that we went straight to our hut (most of the party were in my hut) and lay on our beds and began to doze off only to be wakened by a Flt/Sgt. telling us that we were supposed to be working on the planes and if not, we had to volunteer to fly on a special trip – it was the easy way out[inserted],[/inserted] so back to sleep. The next morning we were told that we would be
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taking over the duties of the squadron, whose own aircraft (Liberators) had been cannibalised one-at-a-time in order to keep their aircraft flying until they had only one aircraft. Our flight down to the South coast was uneventful, but the cloud base was rather low and we couldn’t see the ground so I cat-napped. Sometime later I awoke and was looking at a strange cloud rising just at the side of our ‘plane., about the size of a large black football – it then dawned on me and just as I was going to shout at the captain he called on the inter-com ‘Navigator we must be nearly there’. ‘Yes, just nip below cloud and confirm’. At least 4 German A.A. guns were firing at us, and looking hastily back, I couldn’t even see the Channel. Quickly climbing above cloud, we eventually reached our destination. But it was going to be one of those days best forgotten. I was given my instructions to try and keep the planes serviceable at all times and to make sure that all ‘planes were fully fuelled, as the trips were to be over the Bay of Biscay searching for enemy subs. Mine laying and submarine attack was the main aim.
As I got out of the ‘plane I saw a petrol tanker on the perimeter track, so I hailed him to come over, and told him we wanted to fill the aircraft immediately. ‘Sorry mate. You don’t belong to us’, was the response. So it was a case of ‘take me to your leader’ attitude. I climbed into the tanker, back to his base and had words with his officer, who more-or-less said the same thing. I was then passed up the ranks – Flt.Lt Engineer Officer, Squadron Leader, Wing Commander and finally the Group Captain. Repeating my request for refuelling the aircraft, I got the same answer – ‘No, I don’t know anything about you’. I tried another way. ‘Sir, someone must have sent a signal for reinforcements.’ ‘No, they would have told me about it’. Feeling that I was getting nowhere – ‘May I use the ‘phone , sir?’ ‘Yes certainly. Who do you want to ring’? ‘Our own base, there is little point in us remaining here, we may as well return.’ Ah! I’d hit a tender spot. ‘Now let us think this out’ he said. The solution he arrived at was that he would call in a WAAF typist, dictate an agreement to the effect that I was responsible for all the fuel used by our unit, and that we would both sign it – I know that it all sounds crazy, but that is basically what happened. [italics] (My recurring worry is that someone in the Air Ministry may find that document, and ask me to repay them for the fuel used. However, I am comforted that my fellow members of the Squadron will dig deep in their pockets to reimburse me.) [/italics]. However, having got permission I rushed back to fuel the aircraft, as a lot of time had been wasted and it was getting towards night-time. The tanker arrived and two of us, one on each wing, commenced to fill up. The driver warned us that if the ‘drome was attacked (France was only 20 or so miles away) the standing instructions were for him to pull away immediately. It rapidly got very dark that night, (remember it was early October). Suddenly, there was a big flash and bang, and without warning, the tanker driver started to pull away shouting at us as he went – we just had time to pull out the nozzles. Quickly fastening down the petrol caps, we slide down the wing stubs and met at the bottom. It was pitch-black by this time and we hadn’t a clue were [sic] any of the buildings were situated and just hoped that the rest of our party had found somewhere to stay. By good luck, the first building we got to was the NAAFI which was practically deserted, except some of our friends were there. They had similar experiences to us in that no-one on the ‘drome was interested in us – so it was a case of do-it-yourself – our lads just commandeered a Nissan hut, ‘pinched’ beds from other huts, bedding from several places and even broke into the coal compound. So, at least we had somewhere to sleep and in some sort of comfort. Someone explained that the big flash & bang we heard was their last Liberator blowing-up on its test flight. One can imagine that the whole camp, from the Group Captain to the lowest ranks, were so demoralised by the situation that there was no point in them being there. We had our own duties to attend to.
Our original instructions were [italics] ‘You’ll only be there about a week, You’ll only need your knife, fork and mug’[/italics] – we were to remain there until we were relieved early in December!. Things ran fairly smoothly at first, but then we all ran out of money.. The normal channels were tried – going to the accounts department and explaining the situation, but to no avail. Finally, a meeting was arranged with the whole detachment and a plan of action arranged – that on the next station pay parade we would disrupt the action by walking in front of the station personnel and prevent them from being paid. The pay day arrived and we caused absolute chaos – we were threatened with dire consequences, but eventually everybody calmed down and the Squadron Leader in charge of the parade promised to look into the affair straight after their men had been paid. We agreed to this and left the parade. The next day we were paid. So at least I could buy a cup of tea at the NAAFI.
We existed (couldn’t think of a better word) there for about 5 weeks – our only possessions knife, fork and mug. [underlined] [italics] No change of clothing. [/italics] [/underlined] One day, one of our own aircraft arrived unannounced, dropped off replacement ground crew (they returned the following day) and flew us back to…
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R.A.F. RUFFORTH
It was the 5th December when we arrived back again in the area of York. Rufforth is about 4 miles west of the city and was a typical war-time ‘drome, with 2 runways and scattered living accommodation. One difference to our previous home, there was a working farmhouse [underlined] within [/underlined] its boundary. I was allocated to P, which was based close to a country road.
Routine was slightly different than before, in that we serviced the ‘planes early in the mornings (remember this was winter-time and day-light hours were short. It would be dark by 5 p.m.) Aircrews air tested, and in the course of early afternoon we towed each plane by tractor, onto the runway, fairly close together, and at a 25o angle to the runway. The planes were then topped-up with fuel (some times overload tanks were fitted), bombed up – often with a mixed load of 2,000 lb. H.E.s and incendiaries.
On one occasion there was an electrical fault and a canister of incendiaries fell to the ground, fortunately very few ignited and we managed to throw, and kick them out of the way. The reason for parking the planes on the runway was to save as much fuel as possible as some of the raids were at Turin or Genoa. I remember on the return of one aircraft, how the crew waxed lyrical of how beautiful the Alps looked in the moonlight.
It was common practice for ground crews who were on night duty, waiting for returning planes, to cat-nap as best they could. One night I was awakened by an odd noise, looking out of the door of the office, I saw a horse, then noticed 2 or 3 more. Rushing back in I rang the control tower. There was quite a panic as the returning aircraft were due in about 1/2 hour. “A” flight office was informed and together with some control tower staff we just managed to get the last horse in when the first planes arrived. Well! I couldn’t face having to eat horse meat for the next week or two.
It was possibly early in 1943 when it happened – [underlined] [italics] the worst day of my life. [/italics] [underlined] The day started just like any other at Rufforth, early breakfast and off to work. After we had ground tested, the aircrew arrived and proceeded with the air test. Everyone going for an early dinner as the afternoon was very busy – only one tractor per Flight, and pulling the ground-starter motors over, ready to start the aircraft. The aircrews came out after briefing, engines were started up, and while the rest of the groundcrew cleared the area of ground-starter motors etc. I remained in the aircraft while the pilot checked the engines one at a time, checked the fine/course pitch, and so on until he was satisfied, checking the petrol and finally signing ‘Form 700’ – which contained the signatures of all who had done any work on the plane.
Closing the hatch, with the ‘700’ under my arm I walked to the Control Tower to watch the planes take-off. It was getting dusk but I could just read the letters on the side of my plane. As the pilot opened up the engines, I was horrified to see white steam pouring from the starboard outer engine – a sure sign of a coolant burst (the planes were all powered by Merlin XX’s at this time). I expected to see the pilot immediately shut-down and stop the plane, but no, the plane carried on gathering speed, as it reached the end of the runway and lift-off. I watched the aircraft as it slowly turned to port with steam still streaming out behind. Then inevitably, there was a dull thud and a flash as the ‘plane disintegrated, killing all the crew.
I was in a state of shock. Had I missed something on my check? My F/Sgt. was on the balcony of the control tower, and he called down to me [italics] “That was your aircraft wasn’t it? You had better give me the 700 before you do anything stupid with it.” [/italics] That statement certainly did not improve my already troubled mind. What of the poor crew – they must have realised that something was seriously wrong and tried to fly to the other end of the runway, so that they could land again. It must have been hell for them before the inevitable explosion. My mind was repeating all the event that had gone on during that fatal day. Would I be arrested and await a courtmartial [sic]? I eventually returned back to my hut, and my friends tried their best to console me
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On reporting for work the next morning the F/Sgt decided that I wouldn’t work on aircraft but work in the office and be a general ‘dogsbody’ for any one who wanted assistance. I heard nothing about the accident for 2 or 3 weeks, until one day I was asked to report to one of the offices, were [sic] I was asked by a Sgt. S.P. to verify that it was my signature on the Form 700 and that was all I heard about it officially.
I was in the office a few weeks later when our office clerk said to me that there was a rumour that we were moving to another station near the east coast called Lissett, do you know it? I thought for a moment, ‘Yes! It’s a hamlet on the Bridlington Low Road. I’ve driven through it a few times. It is notorious for a stretch of straight concrete road w[inserted]h[/inserted]ere idiot motorists ‘open-up’ to see how quickly they can kill themselves.’ – and so on to …
R.A.F. LISSETT
We were still working on Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, a newer version Halifax Mark 2. and Flights A, B, & C. I was very surprised when I was put in charge of R Robert, based just out-side what was to become the Radar Office and close to the bomb dump. [italics] (Most of those who served at Lissett will have realised how dangerous that base was.) [/italics] There were differences in some of the Halifaxes – they now had the large oblong shaped tail, apart from that, most of them had radar blisters under neath [sic], but the aircraft I was working on had a blister made of metal and the rear was wide open to the air. It was suggested that it was intended to be a lowerer [sic] gun position, which never materialised. I went on the first flight and when the ‘plane was airborne I crept into the blister and strapped myself in – I’ve never been so frightened, the flight itself was rather bumpy but the air-drag was trying to pull me out of the open blister. Very carefully I undid the strap and held tight-hold of it, at the same time pulling myself into the fuselage. What a relief!
Page 7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dennis Raettig's wartime memoir
Description
An account of the resource
Wartime memoir covering Dennis Raettig's training at Blackpool and the posting to 104 Squadron at Royal Air Force Driffield in August 1941. Worked on Wellington aircraft and mentions that Driffield also hosted the blind approach landing flight operating Whitley and Battle aircraft. Tells of his time at Driffield including an attempt to deploy to Malta and deployment to RAF Pocklington during the winter. Notes that the squadron change number to 158 Squadron in February 1942. Relates training at RAF Leeming for squadrons eventual change to Halifax aircraft and preparations for the 1000 bomber operation on Cologne in May 1942 as well as the last Wellington operations shortly after. Goes on to tell of his time at RAF East Moor now with Halifax. with some anecdotal stories as well as relating story of a test flight and an abortive trip to RAF Harwell to prepare Halifax for glider towing. Describes another special operation trip to the south coast with problems with getting fuel for the aircraft. Talks of move to RAF Rufforth and describes routine as well as describing witnessing 'his' aircraft crashing on take off and its effect on him as the worst day of his life. Finally relates move to RAF Lisset.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
D W Raettig
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Seven page printed document with illustrations
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BReattigDWRaettigDWv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1941-01
1941-08
1942-02
1942-05-30
1943
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
104 Squadron
158 Squadron
4 Group
animal
B-24
Battle
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crash
fuelling
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
incendiary device
mechanics engine
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Driffield
RAF East Moor
RAF Harwell
RAF Leeming
RAF Lissett
RAF Pocklington
RAF Rufforth
runway
service vehicle
take-off crash
tractor
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/474/8362/LClydeSmithD39856v1.2.pdf
eb7cf0f79771738c84dfe6e7cee923db
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clyde-Smith, Denis
Clyde-Smith, D
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains 26 items and concerns Squadron Leader Denis Clyde-Smith Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, who joined the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in 1937. He flew in the anti aircraft cooperation role including remotely piloted Queen Bee aircraft before serving on Battle aircraft on 32 Squadron. He completed operational tours on Wellington with 115 and 218 Squadrons and Wellington and Lancaster with 9 Squadron after which he went to the aircraft and armament experimental establishment at Boscombe Down. The collection consists of two logbooks, aircraft histories of some of the aircraft he flew, photographs of people and aircraft, newspaper articles and gallantry award certificate.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Clyde-Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-19
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Clyde-Smith, D
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LClydeSmithD39856v1
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Pilot's flying log book for Denis Clyde-Smith covering the period from 1 June 1942 to 19 July 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations and test pilot duties. He was stationed at RAF Honington, RAF Wigsley, RAF Waddington, RAF Boscombe Down. Aircraft flown in were, Wellington, Lysander, Manchester, Lancaster, Tiger Moth, Halifax, Proctor, Stirling, B-17, Liberator (B-24), Marauder (B-26), Anson, Warwick, P-51, Mosquito, Spitfire, Lincoln Stinson, Typhoon and York. He flew a total of 24 operations with 9 Squadron. Targets attacked were, Essen, Bremen, St Nazaire, Borkum, Wilhelmshaven, Baltic coast, Duisberg, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Munich, Wismar, Aachen, Kiel, Genoa and Milan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Borkum
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Munich
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Germany--Wismar
Italy--Genoa
Italy--Milan
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1942-06-01
1942-06-02
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-06-27
1942-07-02
1942-07-03
1942-07-07
1942-07-08
1942-07-09
1942-07-11
1942-07-12
1942-07-13
1942-07-14
1942-07-21
1942-07-22
1942-07-24
1942-07-26
1942-07-28
1942-07-29
1942-09-10
1942-09-11
1942-09-13
1942-09-14
1942-09-16
1942-09-17
1942-09-19
1942-09-20
1942-09-23
1942-09-24
1942-09-29
1942-09-30
1942-10-01
1942-10-02
1942-10-05
1942-10-06
1942-10-13
1942-10-22
1942-10-23
1942-10-24
Title
A name given to the resource
Denis Clyde-Smith's pilot's flying log book. Two
1654 HCU
9 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-17
B-24
B-26
bombing
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
Lysander
Manchester
mine laying
Mosquito
P-51
pilot
Proctor
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Honington
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
Spitfire
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Typhoon
Wellington
York
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/481/8364/ABrownlieDL161227.1.mp3
82b7c3d3041f39673a62913053da0909
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Title
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Brownlie, Daphne
Daphne L Brownlie
D L Brownlie
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Brownlie, D
Description
An account of the resource
Thirteen Items. Collection concerns Daphne Brownlie (1922 - 2019, 2055069 Royal Air Force). She served in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Kinloss in flying control and RAF Stanmore where she worked in the filter room. Her fiancé was shot down and became a prisoner of war. Collection consists of an oral interview and photographs taken in prisoner of war camps.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Daphne Brownlie and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Interviewer: This interview is on the 27th of December 2016 at 14:05 and I’m speaking to Daphne Brownlee at her home in Burgess Hill. I’d like to ask you Daphne, how you started with the RAF.
DB: Well, I was of an age when I was ‒, I could join the armed services and there was a war on, and it seemed the obvious thing to do was to join a service, and I did. I particularly wanted to join the WRENs because my brother was in the Navy and we were very close to each other, and I wanted to be in the same service as he was in, and when I told him ‒, it was the days when the WRENs wore those dreadful hats, and he said, ‘I’m not having a sister of mine looking like a village postwoman’. So I joined the WAAF and no sooner had I joined the WAAF, then the WRENs had those snazzy little hats and I never quite forgave them for that. Er ‒, I did have a few months after I’d actually joined the WAAF, before I was actually called up, and I did a very short course at Derby Technical College, a secretarial course, and at least I learnt to type which has stood me in good stead ever since. Anyway, I was called up and I went to Innsbrook. It was a training centre and when you went there, you had no job or you had no idea what you were going to do. You were interviewed, and talked to, and then you were never asked what you wanted to do, you were told what you were going to do. Slight incident at Innsbrook which might be of interest, one morning we were taught how to salute, which was something that I never really wanted to do, but I did realise one had to do it. When I was coming away, this is on the station itself, there was nothing there except sort of military personnel, and there was this man that’s walking up towards me, and he’s got braid halfway up his arms and all over his hat, and I had no idea what rank he was but I did realise that I had to salute him, and I looked to my right and left and couldn’t find anywhere to divert off the straight and narrow, so we eventually came face to face and I saluted. Well I thought I’d saluted, and he didn’t know what I’d done because I think he would be in trouble today actually, because he took me in his arms and he said, ‘Excuse me, my dear, were you saluting me or wiping the sweat off your brow?’ So that was my first salute, well my first salute. I don’t know there’s anything else actually happened there. The finishing parade was actually taken by the Duke of Kent and that was the first time I’d ever seen a man wear makeup, but that was about the only other thing of note I think. Then I went to, oh ‒, I can’t remember the name of the place, can’t remember the place, but it was where special duties people were sort of sorted out, whether they were going to be going to filter rooms or ops rooms or what they’re going to do, and I was sent straight up to Inverness and worked on ‒, and posted to a place called Kinloss, which was a Bomber Command OTU, where they were training the boys on Whitleys and I worked in flying control there. There was just two of them on watch, our two WAAF. We worked the most extraordinary hours, we went on duty at 8 o’clock in the morning and we’d come off at 5 o’clock in the afternoon. Then we would have twenty-four hours off and we’d go on duty at 5 o’clock in the afternoon and we’d work right the way through to 8 o’clock next morning. When I say work, we were very busy when the planes were taking off and again we were very busy when the planes were returning, but providing there was ‒, everything was straightforward and there was no emergencies, we could more or less put our feet up and, well, I don’t know about sleep but certainly relax for quite a length of time. So it wasn’t really as long as it sounded and where we worked there was the OC night flying, who changed every night, there was a wireless operator who took endless messages from the aircraft, and there was the flight path gang, and the only person who had a kettle was the flight path gang so we all mixed together quite considerably, that’s if you wanted a cup of tea. I don’t know ‒
Interviewer: It’s started again.
DB: We were billeted in a private house, just outside the camp, which was really occupied by WAAF officers. We were working in flying control. We were just half a dozen girls and two on three watches, and we were put in the attic and we weren’t supposed to be there. I mean, we weren’t supposed to make too much noise, we weren’t supposed to put a gramophone on. Well, we were just there and we, you could walk into camp, I mean it wasn’t that far in actual fact, but I don’t know quite how we got there but we all had bicycles which we cycled into camp. And it was a very peculiar station in as much as that the CO was a great one for ‒, well I think he liked to call it discipline, we just called it bull. I mean you had to walk on the right hand side of the road and you had to have your collar ‒, hair off your collar and you had to have your buttons polished, and if they weren’t, you were on a charge, which usually consisted of being marched in front of your CO and saluting and being talked to and goodness knows what. But he had so many people put on a charge, I mean every officer on the camp knew he had to charge anyone who was doing the slightest thing wrong. But we used to have an awkward parade every night rather than go in front of the CO, and I was very off with, on the awkward parade but I once got away with ‒, well I feel I got the better of him. We had [unclear] living quarters actually where I was living, in a Nissan hut on a [unclear] in the garden of a private house but it was still not on camp, but we had big ablution blocks and we had this hut which was all bathrooms, and I came off night duty and I went to have a bath, and there was a notice on the door that said, “the CO’s inspection”. Well it was already about quarter to nine and I thought, the CO is never going to be inspecting anything at quarter to nine in the morning. So I got in my bath and I, of course, I’d only been there about five minutes or something, there was a CO inspection. None of the doors had any locks on them so, and coming down the row of baths I could hear the door being opened, and I mean the sergeant would open the door and sort of he’d say, ‘Sir’, and I mean, I could just see it happen, although it was in my imagination, he would stand back and the CO would march forward and he would look around and say, ‘Yes, that’s OK’ and walk on to the next one. Well, my door was flung open and words, ‘Sir’ and sir stepped forward and there I was ‒
Interviewer: That’s a lovely story. I love that story [laugh]. Did you get involved in anything like amateur dramatics or did you ‒? [unclear]
DB: No, I didn’t. There was nothing like that really going on. Er were, I mean all the WAAF were living on camp and they were drivers and cooks and things. We didn’t really have much to do with them at all. It was just ‒
Interviewer: Any sport? Did you have to do ‒?
DB: Yes, I got involved. That’s another story.
Interviewer: That’ll do [laugh].
Other: My Mum’s quite sporty.
Interviewer: Oh I see. And did they have any dances?
DB: No.
Interviewer: No? Because I know on the main bomber stations, they were quite, you know, they had dances and that sort of thing.
DB: This was an OTU, but as far as the sport was concerned, it wasn’t ‒
[unclear]
Interviewer: What incident?
Other: No, I’ve been wondering about that.
Interviewer: Do you want to talk about it beforehand and then if I think ‒
Other: No. Well, I think I can ask your advice.
Interviewer: OK
Other: I think because of your involvement, I think it’s perfectly all right.
Interviewer: OK
Other: But what it is, the, I don’t know if you remember the Duke of ‒?
Interviewer: Oh yes, the crash in the Liberator. Yes, I remember that.
Other: Mum was rather involved in that.
Interviewer: Oh were you?
Other: In that you reported it as enemy plane, didn’t you?
DB: Well I was ‒, I was working in flight control this particular evening.
Other: Well, don’t go into the details, Mum, because you don’t want to have to repeat it for the tape.
DB: No, that’s right.
Other: I just want to check with Dee whether ‒
DB: [unclear] within the next two days for no reason at all except that they didn’t like my face.
Other: Oh, I don’t think it was because it was that they didn’t like your face. It’s just that they wanted to keep it quiet.
DB: Well, that’s what I’m saying.
Other: And it was kept quiet. So much of that was kept quiet. To this day it’s still kept quiet.
Interviewer: Well, they have, recently on TV, they’ve done a thing about it so I don’t think there’s any reason why you should keep it quiet.
Other: And it’s not as though you were involved in any sort of conspiracy. You were just a player in the story.
Inerviewer: Yes, that’s right.
Other: And I think it’s very interesting and your part of it is interesting.
DB: Yes, yes.
Other: And I have been thinking about that actually, and personally I think, you know, I imagine for you ‒.
[unclear]
Interviewer: Well, at the end of the day I’m just recording your memories. I’m not the person who will try to describe them, but yes, it will be very interesting because it’s something from somebody who was there. So, yes, I would love you to mention the incident.
Other: And your part was very minor.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: But very interesting.
Interviewer: Yeah, yes, I would agree with Alison, that’s the sort of real nitty gritty thing we wouldn’t normally get except that you were there so no, I’m really happy to hear that one, so right ‒
DB: I didn’t have really have to be trained for because it was the same thing as I had been doing at Kinloss more or less. Anyway, on this particular evening, night flying had finished, and we were all sort of, more or less, dozing off in our seats and I had a call from, oh what’s the er ‒, the Observer Corps, who said that there was a fire on the mountainside which looked a bit like an aeroplane, but they had no advance warning of anything flying and what were they to do? Were they to go up and try and rescue people or was it not a plane? And I said, ‘Well, night flying has finished but I will ask around’. I rang up every aerodrome in our group and no-one had anything flying at all. I rang up the adjoining group and asked them if they had anything that had flown into our area and they hadn’t told me, and they said, ‘No, nothing had been flying at all’. So I rang up the Observer Corps and said, ‘If it is an aeroplane, it’s hostile, ‘cause we had nothing flying whatsoever and so let them burn ‘til morning [laugh]’. Anyway, about an hour later, I had a telephone call from the adjoining group who sort of said, they had actually in fact had had an aeroplane that had flown into our area and they had lost contact with it and they were really rather worried. Could they tell them why I was asking, and so anyway, I told them and they said, ‘Oh dear’. I said, ‘What do you mean ‘Oh dear’?’ And they said, ‘Well the plane that we’ve lost, there was a VIP on board’. I said, ‘Like who?’ and they said, ‘Like the Duke of Kent’. And there I told them to let him burn. Anyway, I didn’t see any point of reporting it to anyone else because it was perfectly straightforward, whoever was on board or not. But about two days later, the warrant officer came along and told me that I didn’t work in flying patrol liaison anymore, and I said, ‘Why? What have I done?’ And I must say that this incident did sort of cross my mind, and he said, well the warrant officer said, ‘I’d been thinking all day what I could tell you and I can only come out with the truth’. And I said, ‘Well there’s nothing wrong in the truth’. He said, ‘Well you might not like it’. I said, ‘Well hard luck’. So he said, ‘Well, the fact is, the wing commander has just been up and he personally chose the girls who worked on flying patrol and he didn’t choose you, and he doesn’t like your face, so I’m afraid you don’t work here anymore’. Which, as time goes by, I do wonder if it was my face that really got me the sack or whether they didn’t like what I’d done about the Duke of Kent. Anyway, ‒. Although I was sacked from that particular job, I was asked, I was told, that I could choose which job I’d like to do in the ops room. The choice was mine and if I’d like a posting, I could have a posting to wherever I wanted. Whether this all went with having an ugly face or not, I don’t know, but I got the job, you know, the transfer, the job that I was interested in, and I said that I didn’t want a posting at that particular moment but about two or three months later, or sometime later anyway, I said that I’d like to go down to Stanmore, and I was there within two days. So it did have some advantages. So that’s how I ended up at Stanmore. And I was not in an ops room, I was in a filter room. Does anyone know what a filter ‒? The difference between an ops room and a filter room was, an ops room, the girls plotted aircraft that were observed by the Observer Corps, and a filter room where plots came down from ‒ not anything anyone had seen, but from radar stations, information from radar stations, and a different station saw aeroplanes in different ways. I mean there were HCL was it? High something aircraft and L, well some saw high and some saw low. Some saw all kinds of different things but that wasn’t my job to ‒, but you got plots on the same aeroplanes from different radar stations, and they had what was known as a filter officer, who worked out exactly how many aeroplanes they were, or she thought they were, and what height they were, and then she put down a big arrow in the direction that it was going, and the height and the number and the identification was given by the controller, who sat on the balcony, and he identified the planes from information that ‒, well, I say I and a good few others gave him. We were known as ‒, oh Christ, movement liaison section, which meant that we had a row of telephones which were incoming phones, and we sat there and we had information from groups and stations and things about anything, any aeroplane that was crossing the coast, and the number, and the height and the time and what-have-you, and we gave this information to the controller, who from our information identified it, and we not only told the controller, we had to tell the Army, whose guns they were going to fly over, and we had to tell the Navy, whose ships they were going to fly over, who never took any notice at all, um. And that was simply, fairly simple with aeroplanes that were going out, but it was a different matter when they were coming home, because you got all kinds of stragglers who might have been ‒, the aeroplane might have been injured or the crew might have been injured or you might even have got aeroplanes on the water, and we had to sort of ‒. I say we, someone had to work out whether it was a plane or a boat or, you know, if it needed Air Sea Rescue. We had to tell everyone that was concerned. But as I say it was quite tricky when they were coming home, not that I had any decisions to make, but I did have people I had to tell if ‒, and I suppose really that was the job I did at Stanmore. We worked six hours on and we had twelve hours off, which meant we worked a little earlier each day and we worked a shift earlier and very occasionally we’d have four shifts. It didn’t happen very often and it never lasted for very long, but it did occasionally happen and in which case we still worked a three shift programme, but one shift had fifty-two hours off and that made it possible for quite a lot of people to actually get home for a night or what-have-you. While ‒, before I came down to Stanmore I was still working at ‒, well I think I was working at Inverness at the time. Ian actually was ‒, did a training for his second lot of ops and he was trained as a pathfinder, and when he was trained he went down as a flight commander to 35 Squadron based at Graveley, and he only did ‒, I honestly can’t tell you how many, but it was sort of five or six ops and he was shot down and was a prisoner of war for ‒, well for a month after the war. I think he went on an unfortunate long march and they didn’t get home just because the war was over. They ‒, well that’s another story really but ‒. So, oh, by now of course, I am engaged. I was engaged before he went back on ops and er ‒, so I waited, I waited two years for him to come home as a PoW and once you’d been home, he had six weeks leave. Oh ‒, lunch is ready [unclear]. I’ll move on to it and there now just after the war we did have a little more time off now and then, I mean, we could get long weekends and things if we didn’t do it too often. And I went down to ‒. Ian still hadn’t come from PoW camp, but his sister was working at a radar station at Beachy Head in Eastbourne and I went down to spend a weekend with her after the war, and I was sleeping in whoever’s bed happened to be on night duty, and this particular night, she was on night duty, so I mean, I didn’t know anyone there and I was just had all night and nothing to do, and they came round to the billet, they said there was some ex-Australian PoWs had just arrived and they were giving a dinner at The Grand Hotel, and if any females liked to come along they’d be very welcome, because the boys hadn’t seen anyone for sometimes years. What’s that? Anyway, so I went along. And first of all, I was seen by a boy who very soon disappeared and never came back and I did say to someone else, ‘I wonder what’s happened to the fellow next door to me’. And they said, ‘Oh, he’s flat out in the Gents’. So he had said to me he just had to go and ring his grandmother up or something. Anyway, so I had this other fellow came and sat next to me and chatted away and he said he’d be very pleased if ‒. He’d never been to England before, he’d be very pleased if I could show him round. And I said, ‘Well there’s a couple of snags there’, I said, ‘One of them is that I’m not from Eastbourne, I’m from London’. ‘London! Oh that’s even better. Far more excited to see London than Eastbourne. After all, I’m dumped in Eastbourne, I can wander round here but I can’t wander round London’. So anyway, he used to come up about two or three times a week and I used to show him round, and on this particular evening, I kept saying, ‘I must go because the last tube’s going home, back to Stanmore’. ‘Oh no, no, no, don’t worry about that. In fact, I’ll put you in a taxi’. And I said, ‘You know it’ll cost ‒ ‘. ‘Don’t worry about it, don’t worry about anything. I’ll just put you in a taxi’. So the time came when he just put me in a taxi and said, ‘Take her to ‒’, and he opened the door and he said, ‘Get out Daphne, I can’t afford that’. [Laugh]. So I said, ‘Well that’s all very well but the last tube’s gone. What am I going to do?’ So he said, ‘Well you’ll have to come back to the billet with me and see what they can do’. I mean, he was an Australian. We went back to his billet, which was a Commonwealth sort of place, and a man on the door was sort of booking people in and out and what-have-you, and Stan said that he had this girl with him who had nowhere to stay for the night, could she stay there? And this man looked me up and down, up and down again, and what-have-you. And he said, ‘Well yes, alright, but you must make arrangements here and now when you are going to see her again tomorrow, because you won’t see her between now and then’. And so we said whatever we said, and I was escorted to this room. The door was unlocked. I was put in there. There were six beds in there. There was no one sleeping in there at all except me, and I was locked in [laugh] and I was unlocked again, I don’t quite know what time in the morning, but was escorted passed all these Australians, all shaving in their underpants and goodness knows what, and I was taken to the loo and the bathroom and I was delivered outside the front door where I was [unclear]‒. Anyway, eventually Ian came home and I did say to Stan ‒, and I mean there was no romance, he knew I was engaged and all the rest of it. I rang up Stan and I said, ‘Ian’s home and so that’s the end of my little escorting duties’, and he said, ‘Oh dear, never mind, thank you very much’. I said, ‘You’ll just have to find yourself another WAAF’, and he said, ‘Yes I will, won’t I?’ So he found himself another WAAF, which happened to be Ian’s sister, and he married her [laugh]. So ‒, but after the war, Ian had quite a lot of cousins and they’d all seen quite a bit of each other during their childhood, and they were all quite friendly, and they used to get together occasionally and have the odd party, and they all got together and were dashing away about their childhoods, and Stan and I used to get in a corner and natter away about our showing around London [laugh], but that was a coincidence. Sorry ‒, I had this aunt who lived in Lowndes Square and ran a restaurant. When I was at Stanmore I used to go there quite often, ‘cause I used to get fed, get cigarettes and whisky and goodness knows what. It was always well worth making the effort, not to mention the ten-bob note that I usually had shoved in my hand as I left. Anyway, Aunty Vi had this helper, Jack, who actually we used to have him for Christmas after the war because he was in a home nearby where we lived, and well, he’d been so good to me during the war. But my aunt had been on the stage and apparently, although I didn’t know it at the time but Jack and she used to play sort of fisticuffs when they couldn’t agree about something. Anyway, one day Jack said to me, ‘Put your hands up’, and I put my hands up and he put his hands up, and I didn’t know he was joking but I didn’t really think he was going to lay me out or anything, but anyway I saw an opportunity and thrust my, threw my right hand forward and fist closed, and Jack took a step backwards to avoid my thing and hit his head on the door and passed straight out, and was just crumpled unconscious thing on the floor, and when he came round he said, ‘Do you know what you’ve just done?’ And I said, ‘well, I just laid you out. I’m very sorry about that’. He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘I didn’t mean that’. He said, ‘You just laid out the medium weight championship of the Navy’ [laugh]. Champion of the Navy. So you want to watch my right fist [laugh].
Interviewer: Then you got married?
DB: It was a great anti-climax actually the end of the war, because I thought for years, Ian would be home and that would be that and everything would be fun. Anyway, it was a month later before he actually managed to get home, and because I was engaged to an ex-PoW, I was entitled to a week’s leave, which I took, but if I’d been married, I could have had six weeks leave. So, although I was in London and Ian’s parents were living in London and he was returned to London, we got married in Derbyshire six days later and I got my six weeks leave [laugh] and I was discharged from Stanmore. That was my last job and then, believe it or not, having been abroad for over two years, his first posting was overseas and he was away for another two years, and I was not allowed ‒, I mean I didn’t have enough points or anything to go with him or anything so I had my first child when Ian was abroad and I had my second child when was also abroad, but I can’t quite think ‒
Other: Palestine, Palestine.
DB: Oh, was it the Berlin Airlift, was it?
Other: When I was born, I think he was in Palestine. Berlin airlift maybe Hamish, and Palestine me, I think. Carry on.
DB: I can’t think where Ian was when I had my second child but he was also abroad. Er ‒, yes, so we had ‒, we were married for sixty-seven years before he died, which I’ve never forgiven him for actually. But we did have a lot of partings, we had a lot of partings, and they weren’t just for a week here or there, and you know they were for a year or two here and there. I think the most frustrating perhaps one was when he was on the Berlin airlift. They were only attached there. No one was ‒. I think they were only attached really because they couldn’t cope with any wives there. It was, I think it was ‒, well, how we ever won the Berlin airlift I don’t know but anyway, Harrogate was full of wives whose husbands were on the airlift, and I mean, we had nothing to do all day except look after our children and go out to coffee and things, and we’d go out to coffee and because there was nothing to go home for, perhaps we wouldn’t go home, perhaps we’d sort of stay the night, but because the boys were already attached in Berlin, they never knew when they were coming home. I mean their aeroplanes had to come home to be serviced, because they were only attached and someone had to fly them home. So that’s when the boys would come over for two or three days, but sometimes they’d go home and the house would be empty, and of course their wives perhaps have been out to coffee two days beforehand and still hadn’t come home [laugh]. Oh yes, and I do remember, Alison, I was trying to get you christened and I never knew when Ian’d be home. I mean the vicar was very understanding and said he was quite willing to do everything at short notice, but he did want a bit of notice and ‒, well one minute they weren’t there and the next minute they were at the door. But you were just a baby. Our landlord lived in the bottom flat and we lived in the next flat. I was alone with these two children and the landlord, he’d had TV I think and he didn’t go out to work, but his wife did. He used to spend all day at home and he was very, very, tall and my young son was not over tall, and when Hamish (that’s my son) put his hand up and Mr - whatever his name, put his hand down, they didn’t meet. But they used to spend an awful lot of time together and when his wife used to come home in the evening, she used to say, ‘You’ll never guess what those two have been up to today’. [Laugh] and they were very friendly, this little short one and this very tall one. When we, Ian was posted to Egypt, the married quarters were very difficult to come by and they had a system, whereas while you were waiting for a married quarter, you moved into a flat, in my case, Arasheia, and you bought the furniture and everything, and you lived there until you qualified for a married quarter but while we were there, the troubles broke out. This was 19‒, early 1950s I think, and I don’t know quite ‒, so we lived in this town. It wasn’t anywhere near the airfield where Ian worked, but he used to have to get up in the very early hours of the morning and leave and just came back at weekends. Anyway he came back this particular weekend and said, ‘Don’t let Hamish go to school in the morning, or Monday morning, because we’re expecting troubles from the Egyptians’. Now, I used to have a girl who came and helped me with the children. What help I needed I don’t know, but she came in and she said, ‘Where’s Hamish?’ So I said ‒. No, she said, ‘What’s Hamish doing at home?’ And I said, ‘Well I’m not sending him to school because they’re expecting troubles’. ‘Oh, what a lot of nonsense’, she said and she got hold of him by the collar and took him, and put him on the school bus and that was that. The next day she came in and she said, ‘What’s Hamish doing at home?’ So I said, ‘Well, why shouldn’t he be at home?’ ‘ Because we’re expecting the trouble and I’ll just go and rescue him off the bus’. Which she did. Which she did. Anyway, the wing commander’s wife came along and said was I going to the NAAFI, and I thought, ‘Well the wing commander’s wife, perhaps she knows more than I do and more than a local girl does’, so I says, ‘I’ll go to the NAAFI with you’. And I left the two children in the flat with this Egyptian girl. Anyway all was well while we did our shopping, but on our return journey there was a whole mob at the top of the street, all sort of shouting and screaming and going on, and so we hurried home. I wouldn’t say we ran but we increased our speed a little, got to the flat (we were living on the fourth floor), I went up there and the flat was empty. There was no Egyptian girl looking after my two children and in fact, the two children, they were all missing, and I had a look round here, there and everywhere and along the corridor and what-have-you, and in the end, I went up onto the flat roof, and by this time the mob were surrounding the base of the flat. I can’t remember now if they were chucking something up or whether they weren’t, but it was a long chuck, but the flat roof of the flat was covered in broken stones and what-have-you, and this girl and the two children were carrying these stones to the edge of the flat and letting them fly down on the mob [laugh]. And anyway, I got them down to the flat and, having got them there and settled down, and Hamish said, ‘I’ve left Jimmy on the flat’. Now Jimmy was his chameleon, and I don’t know if you know anything about chameleons, but of course they just fade into the background, and there were we, on this flat roof, with the odd missile coming up, and looking for Jimmy, who had faded into the background, faded into the stone background [laugh]. Anyway, we found him in the end and all was well, but then I was left and they were expecting trouble down in Suez, and Ian was down in Suez helping evacuate all the families, and no one expected any trouble in Arasheia, where it all happened and anyway, he didn’t get home for a week, and I wasn’t allowed to go out without an armed escort, so life was really quite a bit difficult. I was having to borrow people’s husbands with guns to take me shopping. And then after a week, the RAF evacuated us. We went into a canal captain’s house, who was on holiday, which was quite nice because we were right by the canal. We waited there until we got a married quarter, which we did. They’d just built these married quarters and we thought we were jolly lucky to get one, but we were just shown into this married quarter and they said, ‘There you are’. Every saucepan was wrapped up in greasy paper and the grease was stuck to everything. We had to put the beds together. We just had to do everything. That was a bit of an ordeal as well but at least we were on camp and we did manage to stay there for about two and a half years, not that particular camp, we were moved around but at least we were in married quarters.
[unclear]
DB: My husband really didn’t talk much about the war. You had to sort of ask him questions if ‒, he’d never bring the subject up. Anyway, one day when we were living down in Salcombe, he had a letter that had been forwarded to him from Air Ministry, and this was from a boy who had lived in Denmark, and this boy had been very interested in British medals, and shortly beforehand he’d bought a DFM with a log book. When he read the log book, the last entry was all about being shot down almost in his own back garden and so, of course, he got particularly interested and he did a little bit of research into this aeroplane, and he discovered that everyone in the aeroplane had been killed except two of them, and Ian was the only one left who was sort of still contactable and that was because he was still in the Air Force. And anyway this letter from this Dane had been written to Ian and sent to the Air Force, and the Air Force had forwarded it on to him. Anyway, as a result of this letter, he came to see us for a weekend and asked us back to Denmark, whereupon Ian was shown the tree where he had landed. He landed in a forest and he was very cross because his parachute got stuck in a tree and he couldn’t bring it down and sort of bury it like he was supposed to. Anyway, this man in his research, he’d gone into really a lot of detail and he said to Ian ‒ , well I was with him, ‘Follow me’, and we went along through the wood, and we came to a collection of little buildings, and this man pointed a door out to Ian and said, ‘Go and knock on that door’, which Ian did, and he was told that was the door he knocked on after he’d been shot down, and during that visit, Ian met a girl who had been working as a maid in the house and she’d been ordered to make a coffee. I mean he was shot down on his way out to Berlin, not on his way back, so it was comparatively early in the evening. She was told to make him a coffee but she wasn’t allowed to bring it through, and she was saying she’d left the door open a crack so that she was looking through the crack at him and, you know, she was absolutely terrified. I suppose it would be about midnight or something. Well, she was just terrified. He also met ‒, as the war went on, they had taken the parachute down, the Danes had, and hidden it. Towards the end of the war, when it was obvious who was going to win, they took the parachute out and he met a lady who was confirmed in a dress made out of his parachute. He went round a building where he was taken when he was first captured, and they wanted to know which room he was interrogated in and he didn’t know. He just knew it was a corner room and it was now what do you call them? The place you go to before you wait for your trial. Oh, I can’t remember what it’s called. Anyway, he went round the three corners and they said, ‘It must have been in this fourth corner then’. And Ian said, ‘Well I don’t think I’d recognise it’. Anyway, much to his surprise, the warden knocked on the door and waited until he was invited in and these ‒, not prisoners, what do you call them? Oh God, I can’t think what you’d call them. Anyway, he was invited in and he said these (I’ll call them prisoners for want of a better word) were told that Ian was there at one time, and they said, ‘Did you get away with whatever you’d done?’ and Ian said, ‘No, I was captured for two years’. And they said, ‘Oh good gracious me, I hope that doesn’t happen to us’. Anyway, it seemed ‒, remand home, that’s it, remand home, it seemed very slack to me for a remand home, but then we were taken down into the dungeons and we were shown the bed where the prisoners could be sort of tied down and tortured and goodness knows what, so perhaps it wasn’t quite so ‒. Anyway, about two or three years later we were invited by the mayor of somewhere or other [unclear], to go to a dedication of a stone to the aeroplane. Where the aeroplane had actually landed, at this farmhouse, they had found quite a large piece of granite which they had pushed down to where the plane landed, and it was dedicated to the aircraft and they had quite a ‒, oh, processions and religious dedications and goodness knows what, all to this aeroplane, which I thought was a really nice gesture, and the granddaughter, I don’t know if she was even born at that particular time, but anyway I got in contact with her. She used to translate letters from her mother to me at Christmas and things like that. There was a time when she used to come to England every other year, and she always used to come and see us while she was over here. That was ‒. I don’t think I’ve seen her for the last four or five years actually, but she’s then, she’s had twins since then and I think she’s got other things to do than visit here, there, and everywhere. Anyway, I think that was jolly nice of the Danes and I still ‒. I’ve just had a card from Henry and Henrietta, which is the name of the couple who ‒. Oh, and Ian was asked over on one occasion, he was a schoolteacher, to go to the school and give the school various classes, a lecture, and everything, which was very interesting, but well that’s another sort of thing really, just to see the difference in schools.
Other: The Danes wrote a book.
DB: Oh yes, and this Henry, he did in fact actually get interested in aeroplanes which landed round about Denmark, and he ended up by writing a book, about half a dozen of them, but it is in Danish and somewhere in the house there is a book, I don’t know where, and it doesn’t really mean anything if I found it. I’m talking about an ops room clock now and you’ll find that it’s divided into various colours which were ‒. Sorry, I’m just checking on the clock. I wish I had one. It was red, yellow and then blue, and the plotters, when they were putting down their plot, they looked at the clock and, if the big hand, when the red hand was say red, they’d use red disks, and as soon as the hand moved onto yellow, they’d then use the yellow disks, and when it came round to red again, all the previous reds were removed so you never had anything on the clock on the table that was more than fifteen minutes old.
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Daphne Brownlie Interview
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Denise Boneham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-12-27
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Sound
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ABrownlieDL161227
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
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Daphne Brownlee joined the Royal Air Force and joined a Bomber Command Operational Training Unit at Kinloss, and worked in Flying Control.
She tells of the hours she and her colleagues worked and also what life was like on the base, including her first salute and her experience with the Commanding Officer’s inspection.
Daphne tells of an incident concerning the aircraft crash of a Liberator containing the Duke of Kent and how the Observer Corps first reported it to her, and her dealings with other Air Groups.
Daphne was then posted to Stanmore where she worked in the Filter Room, where she worked with information received from Radar Stations, where information concerning aircraft was collated.
She tells of her time in London, showing ex-Prisoners of War round London, her reunion with her future husband and how she knocked out a medium weight champion of the Navy.
Daphne was also in Egypt, at Arasheia, and relates her experiences during the troubles there
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Vivienne Tincombe
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01:02:00 audio recording
B-24
control tower
ground personnel
RAF Bentley Priory
RAF Kinloss
Whitley
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/496/8385/ACookeWH150902.2.mp3
520742a38839114b64a9671fc300d352
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Cooke, William
William H Cooke
W H Cooke
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Cooke, WH
Description
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15 items. An oral history interview with William Cooke (2220169 Royal Air Force), log book and other service material, medals, photographs and memorabilia. He flew operations with 49 Squadron as an air gunner.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
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MH. So good afternoon to persons listening to this tape. Today is the 2nd of September 2015, eh, I am Mark James Hunt, I am one of the volunteers with the International Bomber Command Centre at Lincoln. I have, today, the privilege in interviewing Mr William H Cooke at his home address in Mansfield, eh, and what we are going to do is, Mr Cooke is going to commence the interview and take us through his activities prior to being called up, then through his time with the RAF, subsequently to the RAF and then onwards to his association etc. So at this time, I am going to ask Mr Cooke to take over and start to recount his tale please.
WC. Right, well, I left school at fourteen into not much of a job, just an errand van-come drivers job, eh, which I stayed with until I got called up at eighteen. Eighteen and a half I actually almost to the day, when I went down to St Johns Wood for aircrew training. Eh, the ,usual thing there we, eh, the usual tape, parades etc, one of which I remember quite well. It was about midday, we were doing a great coat parade, which meant we were on parade in full kit with our great coats on, as I say, the middle of the summer this was, so it was a bit warm, and eh the, the sergeant in charge and the officer in charge, who was taking the thing, were going behind each mans’ great coat and measuring it from the floor to see the correct length of this great coat, which went on for quite a while. Until all of a sudden there was a bit of a commotion, and one of the lads in the back row of the parade collapsed, obviously it, it had got a bit too much for him, the weather had finally managed to get to him. So that was the end of that parade. From there we went to Bridlington, I can’t remember the name of the unit there, but we did the initial square bashing and the start of training on morse code and aircraft recognition etc, and the Browning Machine Gun of course. From there, we went to Bridgenorth I believe, I can’t remember what that station was called, but from there [cough “excuse me”] we had, I believe brief week or so leave and then we went to the Gunnery School, Air Gunnery School in Northern Ireland. Eh, that course lasted till just before New Years Day on eh, that would be 1944, eh I was lucky I got through very well and passed that top of the course, so I did ok there and from there we, I went back to England. Eh, again a bit amusing, we came back on the eh, Steamer from Larne onto Stranraer, and we couldn’t actually dock properly at the eh, Stranraer, so we had to off load from the Steamer onto a smaller boat, with full kit, kit bags etc, and then we went to the dock, and we had to climb up a wooden ladder up the side of this dock, again with full kit etc, and half way up, an MP, service policeman at the top, called to us “have your passes ready when you get up”. You can imagine what the result of that was. Somebody said, “I was [unclear] do you want that as well?” Anyway, it was a great relief when we first actually then got hold of the side of the dock, to see two RAF police corporals meeting up with a bunch of bolshie sergeants with bright shining stripes on their arms. We just went in for a bit of a fun do, you know. Anyway, from there, I think from there we went home to leave and I was on leave for a few weeks, because the passing through process then was held up along the line. And from there I went to [cough] Upper Heyford I think it was, to start eh, OTU training, OUT at Upper Heyford and its satellite Barford St John. And from there, where did we go from there? Let me think. I think from there we went to Scampton I believe was the next one for a short, what was supposed to be a commando course, which turned out to be just a few weeks filling in again. So from there er, the process gets held up you see, and from there, we went to eh Winthorpe on 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit, and eh, after, after getting through that we went to Scampton. No, yes, no, yes, we did a few weeks at Scampton, and then we went to Syerston, No. 5 Lanc Finishing School and from there, the big day, we were posted to a Squadron. Eh at Squadron, I think we arrived one day and we did a short test run with another pilot, and then our skipper went on the next operation, and after that we were said to be ready for operations, and the first one was Guiros. And eh, that was the operation that the man I had been hoping to be crewed up with, eh, went on and he got lost. His crew didn’t return. Anyway, from there on it was just a matter of doing ops, getting leave every six weeks or I think it was and until we completed the, well eh, partly completed, I beg your pardon, partly completed the tour because then the station, the squadron was transferred to Fulbeck Station, and we completed our operational our there just before Christmas 1944. Again short leave, end of tour leave, and we came back and the skipper went into the Flight Office, came out looking as though he had seen a ghost, because he said, “I have been posted to India”, and he was due to be married in Easter, but anyway he got a special leave and got married. So four of us, after a brief minutes think said, “well, we’ll come with you, skipper”. And eh, from there, then of course, it was a case of, I think we went to Morecombe I believe, for holding until we were ready to get on board the troop ship. The troop ship was the Union Castle Line, “Cape Town Castle” and the length of time on board I think would be about a month, or something like that, to India. I always remember I did a guard duty on there. Believe it or not, we had WAAFs on board so whether it was a case of keeping the aircrew from the WAAFS or the WAAFs from the aircrew, I don’t know. We were on parade, we were on guard rather, we’d take a number of lads round the ship, and on one, one of the guards that I was on, I had to take these chaps round and take them down below decks, and of course, it was dusk while I was doing this, and at dusk I believe on board these troop ships, all the doors are automatically closed. So in going down looking for this bloke and I had lost him, I was about quarter of an hour relieving him because I couldn’t find my way from this side to that side, I had to go up and round. Anyway I got, I found him and that was that. We docked at Bombay, Mumbai as it’s called now, and eh, from there, we went to Poona, Poona for a short while and in that time we were transferred to a place called Mahabulishma for a eh, eh, jungle training course, and they used to send us out with water bottle and rations and a map, and find your way back, sort of thing, and that was it. And eh, it was quite interesting that, because we did, I think, the last one we did was about two or three days out, we had to stay out and manage on what we got and of course, the day we went on that particular course, we were taken out on lorries and before breakfast, everybody had been into the local shop stocking up on whatever food they could get, hiding it so that the CO wouldn’t see it and then loading it on at the last minute, you know, off we went. Eh, and unfortunately, with some of the chaps, they got back a bit early, they got back a bit early and instead of staying out for the last night, they went back in, going into their own beds, you see. The CO, being a keen sort of bloke, went round next morning and rousted all these people out and said, “what you have brought back with you, that’s it for the day”, and he took them out and they had to go for another days walking back. Eh, anyway, when we had finished that we were posted then to Kola Airfield, eh, and then we were then converted onto the American B24, the Liberator Bomber, and eh, I was there, if I remember rightly, I was there on VJ day, no, no, beg your pardon, VE day, and eh, they put the airfield out of bounds because they thought maybe some bright spark would go up there and start one up and run it down the line with the other aircraft. All that, we had a bit of a booze up, but that is about all we did get then on VE day. And then we were posted to, from there, we would go to a Squadron which was 99 Squadron Dubalia, after riding across India on the railways, not the railways we got now [telephone ringing “excuse me”] 99 Squadron, yes the Pilot went on eh, eh, eh, another Operation with a different Crew, just to get him set in as it were, and then we did two Operations. The first one was somewhere down to, I believe it was Billing, near eh, now what was it, Rangoon I think in that area, which I think was supposed to be a, a, a Japanese transit camp but anyway. The second one was a ten thousand ton tanker in the area, which was supposed to be the largest tanker the Japanese had there and obviously if we could get that out of commission, that would do a big deal towards the ending of the War, because no petrol if they couldn’t get that sorted. Ah, it was the middle of the monsoon, bad weather all the way, I think we sent seven aircraft, four of which had to turn back due to bad weather and, and one thing and another. The other three got through and they were all damaged some way or another, either by weather or by anti-aircraft. In our case, we were damaged badly by anti-aircraft fire, in fact it took the starboard fin and rudder off. By a miracle we managed to keep flying and get back from the Gulf of Siam area to Burma, to Rangoon, Burma. Eh, we were on, on the last approach to landing and just at the last minute or so, it fell out, more or less fell out of the sky and unfortunately, the skipper was killed so that was the end of our flying as it, because shortly after that eh, the war ended. You know the, the Japs, the Yanks dropped the Atom Bombs and that was the end of fighting for everybody and from then on, which would be from 1945, June I think it was, June ‘45 from then on until ’47, March ’47, we were employed on any kind of job we were needed. We were virtually spare, all aircrew were virtually spare men after that, and I did work in a canteen liaison office in Calcutta. Eh, I then was transferred to Dumdum Airport, which I think is now the airport for Calcutta and eh, we were loading freight and mail onto various aircraft and all that kind of stuff. Then I from, before, shortly before I left there, I went to flying control recording landings and take offs and all that kind of stuff. Eh, I remember I was on duty, I think it was on, it would be the night, either the afternoon shift or the night shift, when the demob numbers came up and my number was among them. So that was it, next day, get your clearance chit, get around everybody, get a signature and on the eh, 15th of February, which was my birthday, I was on the bus down to eh, I think it was on the bus, I think it was to [unclear] station in Calcutta, to travel from there to eh, Bombay again to return home. In fact, the officer that I should have been working with passed me on the bus, and asked me what I was doing on the bus. “I said I’m going home, thank you very much Sir”. And then, as I say again, about a eh, months journey back again. I thought I was going to go on board the troop ship as a warrant officer, because they called me out as a warrant officer on parade, but when I got on board the ship, I was suddenly back down to sergeant again, I was remustered as a sergeant, so I didn’t get a cabin, I got a hammock down below somewhere. And eh, it was ok, but that was on the P & O Liner Moortan, one of the older liners. Very deep draught and it was quite reasonable that was, apart from the fact that the food was awful [laugh], I am not sure whether it was coming back from India or when we were going out. We went down for a midday meal and eh, we were served tripe and onions, that was the meal. Of course, it turned out it was also the meal for the afternoon meal. One thinks, you know, somebody here is doing alright out of in catering. I mean, If you take the fact that about three, I think it was about three thousand on board the Cape Town Castle, and some of them was coming back. Well, how many people, out of three thousand, would eat tripe and onions for a meal [laugh]. So you know, they would obviously not make all that up much anyway, and what was left was buckshee [laugh]. Anyway, we landed in Southampton and eh, this was in 1947. and eh, the country had been under a deep freeze and snow and everything all over the place, for several weeks and it had just started to thaw. So we managed to get up from there by train, to again somewhere on the East Coast of England, I can’t remember the name of the place, to be discharged, you know. I got me civvy suit and all the bits and pieces, and several, I remember we had to have a medical, and for some reason, I was, I had to go back and have a check-up several times. I don’t know what it was. Anyway they got rid of me, I must have been fit enough to have got rid of [laugh], and as I say I was back home. I managed to get as far as Nottingham on the train, I think it was. Well, all the local trains and the buses had finished then. So, remembering what my Dad had said about being in the Eighteen War, and getting back from Nottingham one time by cadging a lift on a GPO van, I went round to the side of the station, where the GPO place was, and the gentleman was good enough to give me a lift back to Mansfield. He dropped me on, on White Hart Street and I had about say ten minutes to quarter of an hours walk to get home, ‘cause it was chucking it down with rain and I had no great coat or mac, but I’d got my kit bag and all that I needed and I was home, that was it mate. Knocked my Mum and Sister up at about two o clock in the morning and tears all round, you know, that was it, I was back. After that, it was a case of trying, seeing my old boss eh, having a word with him, I didn’t go back to that job. For the next few years, I was in one job or another, on insurance, trying to be a travelling salesman and then I went onto a bakers round. I did delivery to shops on a bakers round and then I finally managed to get to work with a the local, one of the local water authorities, which later became incorporated in all the other water authorities. I worked there on a pumping station for about eight years, and then on in, in Mansfield, in an office with the water authority and finally, when Severn Trent took over, I finished my, I did thirteen years travelling to Nottingham, in the control room at Nottingham, before being retired one day before my 65th birthday. Well at least with the, with the holidays I had saved, one day before my 65th birthday. From then on, I have been enjoying a life of leisure, apart from working at home of course, the wife kept me busy on various things, altered the house quite considerably, so I have used my time fairly well. And a few years ago, my son, youngest son, got me involved with the 49 Squadron Association and the Lincolnshire Lancaster Association, so I have been involved with them up to the present time. Eh, hopefully I shall live a short while longer and enjoy the rest of my time.
MH. Good. Ok, I have been scribbling notes as you can see. Can I take you all the way back to when we commenced, eh, you were fourteen when you left school.
WC. Yeah
MH. What year would that have been?
WC. 1939, just prior to the war starting. That summer when the war started.
MH. Do you remember how or where you were when Neville Chamberlain made his famous statement on the 3rd of September?
WC. Off hand, no I, I was probably at work I suppose, because it was in the daytime I think, as I say, I was an errand lad and I was just learning whatever was needed doing on that particular day at work and that was my job to do it [laugh].
MH. Do you remember when you first heard that war had been declared?
WC. I can’t remember that, no I am afraid not, no.
MH. And did you have any Brothers, Sisters?
WC. Yeah I, I had an elder brother who was very nearly twenty years older than me, he’d been called up to the RAF, and he was on 106 Squadron Lancasters as a rigger. My sister was also on a Lancaster Squadron in the WAAFs before I got called up. So obviously, I was going to go on Lancasters some way or another. I went for aircrew selection and I think I might have been ok for pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, but I knew that if I went for that, I probably would not have got into the war, it would be over before I was trained. So after that, I didn’t know what would have happened if I had stayed in there, so if I go for gunner, at least then I shall be in and six months training and I shall be a sergeant. Again, cash played a role in it, although we weren’t paid handsomely, I think we got, I think we got seven shillings a day as a sergeant, plus a shilling a day flying pay [laugh], that’s five pence now.
MH. Forty pence a day, crazy. Were you influenced at all by your brother and sister and the service they were in?
WC. Oh yes, obviously they were in the RAF, so I decided more than anything else going in the RAF. I always wanted to fly from a lad, you know, you get these urges to be up in the air. I didn’t think somehow that I would be able to be a pilot, navigator, I might have been, but I thought well, I can do the other I am sure, so I’ll be a gunner.
MH. You did some training at Bridlington and Bridgenorth, and then you went air gunner training in Northern Ireland.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Can you describe the conditions overall, where you slept em, and your food and that sort of thing?
WC. Well, it rained a fair bit in Northern Ireland, which it usually does [laugh], generally speaking, it wasn’t, I didn’t think it was too bad although I was taken ill while I was training there. I had two in hospital or at least off sick, and that changed the course that I was on. I was put back two weeks and that’s when the chap that I was already picked out to fly with carried on, on his course and I followed on a fortnight later, you see. But eh, all in all, it wasn’t too bad, I didn’t think, there, it seemed to be ok, you know.
MH. And the food was ok?
WC. Food was reasonable, yeah, yeah.
MH. ‘Cause rationing was in heavily wasn’t it.
WC. Oh yeah, rationing, yeah, as far as food’s concerned, against the civilian diet, it was as good as some, better in some ways, you know, all through, until we got to India, all through, the foods been quite reasonable I thought, myself, in the services.
MH. You were able to maintain your weight?
WC. Oh yeah, in fact, I put on some, I was a lad when joined up, I was more of a man when I got through it all.
MH. You would be the first person in military history to put weight on. OK, so you came out top of your course in ’44, and you then got sent to the OTU at Upper Hayford.
WC. Yeah.
MC. Do you remember what aircraft you were on at that time.
WC. Wellingtons, on Wellingtons, Ansons on the air gunner, Wellingtons on the OTU.
MH. How would you describe them. How would you, you know, describe them as far as aircraft go?
WC. It was, I reckon it was a good aircraft, the Wellington, very good. There is only one thing that I found with that eh, I don’t know what happened with the design but we used to do air firing to a drogue, we used to tow a drogue behind, and you had to feed this drogue out through the middle, a hole in the floor, half way up the aircraft. And you let it out, no, no, I beg your pardon, no, not a drogue, no, no, when you had been flying about two hours, you had to pump oil from one tank into the engine tank. The pump was located in the middle of the aircraft. The only snag was, there wasn’t an oxygen point at the middle of the aircraft. So when you went down there, you pumped for a while and then went back and had a few breaths of oxygen [laugh], and then went back and pumped a bit more. I don’t know how it, it come about, it was just a fault, a tiny fault really, but important if you were doing the pumping but other than that, I thought that the Wellington was a fine aircraft.
MH. And within the Wellington, the basic design, they have a front turret and a rear turret, but on the odd occasion, did they have any other weapons?
WC. Well I was never involved in anywhere there were other weapons, but I believe, I’m not sure, I believe possibly there was a fitting half way through the side window, but I never saw that in operation at all.
MH. Being an air gunner, how did you find the turrets, were they restricting?
WC. No, they were reason, being sort of small, I fitted in quite well, you know. They were ok, there was no problem as far as I was concerned for room, they were a bit draughty occasionally, of course, but apart from that, I was always, I was always comfortable in the turrets on the Wellington and the Lancaster. But the mid upper turret on a Lancaster, the Halifax was the same, the seat was a block of rubber on a, on a hanger, on a sort of canvas strap. You got in and you pulled it underneath, and you hung it on the other side, and that’s where you sat for the next four, five, six hours or seven, whatever it was the length of the trip. But it was ok, I was ok with it.
MH. For those not in the know, can you take us through and what you would have done upon entry into the aircraft, like your pre-flight check as far as a gunner would go, what would you have to do?
WC. Well eh, both the rear gunner and myself, we had to go into the turret, check the guns, make sure the fire and safety switch on each one was in the right position, safe to take off. When you were airborne, on an operation, put them onto fire so that you were ready. Check the sights, all those kind of thing like that, make sure you could see round the turret, operate the turret controls, make sure everything worked ok. And a far on a Lancaster, the mid upper gunner, before he got into his turret, actually had to check, there was a compass, a compass that hung, I can’t remember what, what the kind of compass it was, but it was hung just inside the door of the Lancaster if I remember rightly, and we used to have to check that, call it back to the pilot and the navigator to see that they tallied, they were all tallying the same reading, you see. That was about it, then, as far as, as far as the gunners were concerned. Of course, the others up the front end, they had their own checks to do.
MH. Did you come across any problems at any time?
WC. Not, well, again the only problem I had, we were doing a DI you know, Daily Inspection, and I was checking the front turret and there is a pin which fits in so that you can actually loosen the guns to move them around to do the delivery, and I dropped one of these pins, and it fell down on the, and it took me quite while to, ‘cause it’s just a little cotter pin that fits in, you fitted it in, put it in and that was it, and it took me quite a while to find that, but other than that, that was about it, it was quite ok. Can’t think of anything else, we had a period on the Lancaster when we were introduced to this new radar turret, it was highly secret and according to what the boffins told us, if ,even in ,in tenth tenth clouds shall we say, if you have got an enemy aircraft and got it sighted correctly, you could guarantee seventy, sixty percent hits even without seeing the targets. It was good and that was it, you know. We trained on that and I don’t think it lasted long, I don’t know why but you know, I don’t think that, for some reason, it was, I don’t know whether it was never used for any time, I don’t know. I really, as I say, we didn’t use it as such, we nearly did but [laugh] very nearly did.
MH. Would you like to take the listeners through the time that the Mosquito decided to follow you.
WC. Ah, yeah, well that is the time when we nearly used it. We were flying in cloud, and the rear gunner picked up various Lancasters giving the code back and then he picked up a signal that didn’t give any recognition signal so he said. “it’s coming in, I can see it’s so far”, and I think the wireless operator read out the range to him, you know. He said, “I’ll give it a bit longer”, and we kept going, and I said to the skipper. “better corkscrew, skipper, and see if we can lose him that way”, but this particular aircraft followed us down in a corkscrew, which he shouldn’t have done if it was an RAF one. But, as I say, he wasn’t giving a signal, and I said, “well, this is it, looks like this is it, you know”. The rear gunner said, “well, I’ll give him another few seconds”, he said, “and then I’m going to open fire”, and in those few seconds, we all came out of the cloud, and I looked at the aircraft, and it was an RAF Mosquito, and I said, “for Christ sake, don’t shoot”, you know, or somebody will be in trouble. Anyway he must have seen us at the same time so he broke away and that was it. But that was the only time we were nearly in trouble [laugh]
MH. You were saying to me earlier regarding the use of your guns.
WC. Yeah, we never did, not on the first set of operations. No we didn’t, we were lucky we didn’t get picked up by any German fighters, and we didn’t have any incidents where we were close enough to fire at anything on the ground, would have been a waste of time. Beside of which, we were carrying tracer bullets in the rounds, so we would have given our position away pretty sharpish. So, we counted ourselves being lucky we got away without any problems. We did the full tour and that was it.
MH. You mentioned tracers erm, for those not in the know.
WC. Yeah.
MH. What would have been the make up, and how would they have fitted in with the rounds that you were firing?
WC. If I can remember, it was a group of five, there was one tracer. one incendiary eh, no, no, yeah, one tracer, one incendiary, one armour piercing and the other two would be general purpose, the ordinary bullet, you know. So as I say, you got the tracer every fifth round and it, it would show up fairly well and as I say, it would show up where you were as well, that was the only trouble [laugh]. I don’t think we had that eh, eh, amount of tracer wouldn’t have altered it all as far as I can remember. We didn’t load the guns, the armourers did that for us, you know, and as I say, we didn’t fire them anyway so we were ok. Other than air to air firing, if there was somebody towing a drogue and we sign like that. But I know when we used to do this Village Inn training, we used to do some camera gun tests, and the result when we saw it on the screen, it was remarkable. On an ordinary camera gun exercise, without this Village Inn, the sight would be wandering about fairly well. On that it wandered straight on and that was it, it stayed on pretty well, just floated about a little bit, not bad, not much. So it would have guaranteed some good, good results.
MH. So you went to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe
WC. Yeah
MH. And then onto the Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston, which always tickles me.
WC. Yeah.
MH. A finishing school for the Lancasters.
WC. Yeah.
MH. I will take you back to St Johns Wood if I may just briefly, em, how did you and your skipper, how did you all come to meet up?
WC. Well we met up at Upper Heyford at the OTU there, and it has been said in lots of ways and lots of programmes, it was a kind of haphazard kind of setting up. You all met in the Squadron, in the sergeants mess I think it was, and you went round, or in a hanger somewhere, and you went round, “do you need a couple of gunners, skipper?” or do you need, you know, and that was how you met. You picked up, we tried with a couple of other, I think Australian, we tried to Crew up, but they were already Crewed up, you see, and then we came across our own Skipper, Jack Parkin, he was a Flight Sergeant then, he had been flying, I think, on a Gunnery School, Ansons on a Gunnery School. Anyway we, that’s how you met up, we met him and he’d already got a navigator and a bomb aimer or something, and we finally got the crew of six before you got the flight engineer. The flight engineer joined at the Heavy Conversion Unit when you went on to four engines.
MH. Right, ok, so you eventually got posted to a Squadron.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And now you are all together.
WC. Yeah.
MH. All seven having all completed and everything having gone LFS. Eh, what can you tell us regarding the missions, the type of missions that you had, where they went em, bomb loads, that sort of thing?
WC. Well the first one was just over eight hours to that French railway depot, Gefores I think it was, eh, so that was, I can’t remember actually the details of the various trips, but eh, have you got that list?
MH. Yes.
WC. Yeah, got that.
MH. And got your log book there if you wanted to refer to it.
WC. Yes, if you wanted to, that gives you the exact ones. We landed away from our own drome on two occasions, one was to a eh, I think it was another Lancaster Squadron at Burn in Yorkshire, and the other was Horsham St Faith, the American Base flying Liberators. We rather shook them up a bit when we told them what bomber we had landed with and what we had dropped, especially next day when we opened the bomb doors and showed them what a bomb bay looked like [laugh]. Eh, well apart from that we, we were pretty ok, you know. We went, we came back, we were lucky, we didn’t encounter any fighters or anything like that, so it was ok.
MH. Did you see any other aircraft when you were on a mission coming to grief?
WC. Oh on occasions, yes we did see occasions, I can’t remember again which trips, but you we, we, I think we, in fact I think it was on the first day light they did, the just, all the Lancasters were on a daylight, probably about two hundred or so, and they had been on night trips. Well on a night trip, you each went your own individual way. What was happening on this day light, they were all flying the same way on odd heights and odd courses. And I saw one Lancaster release its bomb load and there was another one underneath, and it went straight through the wing and that was it, so that was seven men down. I can’t remember seeing anyone getting out of it because it just went down. Anyway, we did see one or two aircraft come to grief with flak or fight. Well I don’t know if it were flak or fighters, they were in flame generally and eh -
MH. So how did you feel at that time, how did that make you feel in seeing that? Because I couldn’t imagine that, and I’m sure the listeners can’t imagine seeing that side.
WC. Yeah.
MH. How did you feel personally and how, in any way, did that affect you.
WC. Well if I said it bothered me a great deal, I would probably be right. It did upset me of course, but you were doing a job, and you got to keep your eyes on what you were doing. You could not give too much thoughts to the other people unfortunately. I mean, it sounds a bit horrible that, but this is it, you know, you have a job to do and you, generally speaking on these trips, you had to concentrate all the time. Especially at night, because, you know, you were staring into darkness and you are trying to look for other aircraft, and find out anything you can about what’s going on. So you didn’t have much time to worry about other aircraft, other than when you saw something, that was it.
MH. When you were in the bomb stream, on a night time, how, how did you feel the presence of another aircraft, how did affect how you?
WC. You got the turbulence, you know, you. would be flying along, fairly straight and level, then suddenly, it would be, that meant that you had crossed the turbulence from another, the slipstream of another aircraft. You know you would probably be weaving slightly like this, and you just hit one of those and you knew that somewhere up front, there was another Lancaster. So you had to be even more aware then, because they were damned near as dangerous as what the fighters were. If you were in, I mean, you didn’t stand a chance if you did collide with one, that was it.
MH. Fulbeck, Christmas ’44.
WC. Christmas ’44.
MH. End of tour.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Any high jinks went on?
WC. Actually we were flopping away, although we were finished, we had a drink, we took the ground crew down to the local, Leadenham I think it is, I can’t remember the name of the place, just from Fulbeck. But as I think I said, I had volunteered to go with the skipper and we started having injections for getting ready. So we went, of course, to have a drink of beer, on an injection you knew you had it, matey [laugh]. I, I vaguely remember I had a girlfriend, I think, on that Squadron, a WAAF, and she more or less had to support me all the way back to the Squadron. I hadn’t had much to drink really but eh. Then that was it, when we cleared the Squadron, we went to, where did we go from there? I think that was Morecombe, I think from there, and then wait until the troop dhip was ready. We spent about a week or more in Liverpool docks, because for one reason or another, they couldn’t get the, we couldn’t make up the convoy. I remember actually the day we were moving out of the dock, the captain of the ship ordered everybody away from the rails, get away from, because what was happening, you see, everybody was looking over the rails, several hundred, probably a thousand people on one side, and it was tending to. It only had a narrow gap to get through, so instead of going through straight, he was going through at a slight angle, it would have scaped his paint, so he said, “everybody away from the rails”. But that was, that, I think about it and laugh every time, I stood a guard duty on board a troop ship. There weren’t many chances for the SS to catch us there, you know, in the middle of the ocean, not really [laugh].
MH. So you land in India.
WC. Yeah.
MH. What were your first thoughts about India, it must have been completely different to Mansfield.
WC. Yeah.
MH. What were your first thoughts when you got to India?
MC. Well they talk about the mystic East, in my impression it was the mystic, where the smells were coming from. It was, it was hot and it was a bit smelly, you got used to it after a while, and of course, you got to watch out for everything you got in India. You got the Delhi Belly as it is sometimes called, and then you got any kind of skin infection that was floating around at the time. Prickly heat, boils, tinia, all these things, all due, all due to the sweat on your uniform irritating your skin, you see. And eh, you could get things for some of those. If you got tinia, which is a rash in the private parts and that’s putting it politely, well the treatment was Whitfields, either Whitfields ointment or Whitfields lotion, which is, I think Whitfields lotion is surgical spirits with a max salts, Epsom salts or something like that in it, you know, and the ointment is just vaseline with this stuff. Well Vaseline and, and that is not too bad, it stings a bit, but the, the lotion, it stings a bit sharpish [laugh]. A friend of mine got it and he said, “they have given me this from the sick bay and I’ve got to bath it with this, you see”. I said, “be very careful, don’t, don’t be too liberal with it because it stings. I have had the ointment on mine and I know that’s a wake up call anytime”. He put it on, dabbed it on - Ohhh! - It suddenly hit him what he’d done and he was very cautious from then on, very cautious. There was a, I remember in one of the magazines that the services used to send out, there was a joke in there, and it was a picture of the CO sitting at his desk, and there was a recruit fresh out from England in a uni, you know, different type, almost different type of uniform, and he said, of the medical officer, that was it, where he was going. He said, “I’ve got prickly heat sir”, and, and you know, and under, underneath him like “Prickly Heat!” and the CO and the MO were absolutely covered in these spots. Printed with an explanation mark “Prickly Heat!” [laugh]. It could be a very irritating thing that, you know, you just came out in spots, little red spots all over you. It wasn’t dangerous or really, it was very uncomfortable at times, you would be sitting there, then -OH! - it was just like somebody sticking a pin in and as I say, it could be uncomfortable.
MH. Did you suffer anything else in India?
WC. Yes I did. After the crash we had, when we got back up to Calcutta to the Squadron, then back down to Calcutta, we had to go through various medicals after a crash, you know, you were checked up and everything, and I went to the eh, the other Gunner went in and he was ok, they checked him out alright. The MO took my temperature and pulse, he says, “are you feeling ok?” I said, “I’m fine thanks”. He said, “well, there is something wrong, come back tomorrow”. So I went back the next day and same thing again. He said “there is definitely something”, he says, “come back again tomorrow”. Next day, I didn’t go back to him, I went to sick quarters. I got Denghi Fever and it hit me then. It’s very similar to Malaria, they only way they can tell is by a blood test, and if it’s Malaria if not, it’s Denghi Fever. I had a fortnight, I think it was a fortnight, in hospital then, and part of the time, I’m not sure what was going on or anything, you get a bit delirious, you know, it’s a fever and is spread again by a Mosquito, just the same as Malaria. The time I came out of that, the rest of the crew had also come to Calcutta, and the second pilot had been posted home sick. The other gunner, he had been moved to somewhere, he had been posted away and that was it. I was on my own then in the Transit Camp for a couple of months or so more before the wireless operator, who had been injured in the crash, actually came up from Rangoon and I met him then. And from then on, we spent time together, more time actually, as odd job men as you might say, than we did as Crew.
MH. I want to get, if possible, your impression of the Avro Lancaster as an aircraft, be honest, and then the B24 Liberator and be honest.
WC. This won’t get me thrown out will it?
MH. No, it won’t.
WC. Well the Lancaster was the four engined bomber in my opinion, I believe the Halifax was just as good but, of course, more was made of the Lancaster, the Dambusters and all these kind of raids, and that special 617 Squadron made it a well known and well thought of aircraft. It was very good, there was no doubt about that. As I say, I never flew the Halifax, but I think that was equally as good. And as I say, don’t make too much of it but I think the B24 Liberator, in my opinion, because there is no doubt it saved my life, that it was almost as good as the Lancaster. Designed for a different area of combat. The Lancaster was designed to go three or four hours out and three or four hours back and carry a bigger load because it was lightly armed as well. The Liberator, the same, as the American idea was we will go in and fight our way in and fight our way back. It didn’t work actually, that didn’t, but nevertheless it was designed with that idea and for use over the Pacific on long range jobs. [pause while the telephone is answered].
MH. So in your impression, B24 was a good aircraft?
WC. A very good aircraft, yes, no doubt about it.
MH. But the Lancaster would be your pick of the two?
WC. Ah, yeah, well as I say, they were designed with different aims and you can’t, you can compare them but you can’t compare them as to what one would do against another. Not really, because they were designed for a different purpose. Long range, far more long range is the Liberator, the B24, otherwise it was a good aircraft.
MH. Comfort wise, though, on operations.
WC. Well yeah, yeah, they were reasonable you know. Having said that, on a, on a Lancaster, when you went on an operation, you got a flask of coffee, sandwiches, bars of chocolate and chewing gum. The two trips we did out in India on a Liberator, it was take your water bottle and here’s a K Ration. So, again, that was not due to anything other than the, the area you were in, you know, there was no doubt about that. The Far East didn’t get the same treatment as the European war got. It was definitely a forgotten War in some respects.
MH. For a Layman like myself, can you describe your flying kit for a European operation.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And then your flying kit in India
WC. Well for a, a, an operation in England, you were issued with long johns and long sleeved vests to start with and your shirt, no collar and tie because of the possibility that if you ditched, you could get strangled with it. Then your battle dress, and then on that we, I used to have a, a an electric inner suit and a padded brown outer suit, gauntlets, helmet, goggles, oxygen mask and eh, that was about it, as I say, your sandwiches and everything were already on. On the Far East you didn’t need that kind of thing, of course your parachute etc and may west of course, but that in the Far East, it was just shorts, KD because you were warm enough, you see. KD and eh, parachute and may west again, and that was it, you know. It was, it was perfectly ok because we didn’t fly to any height that would be cold any way, you know. We were ok.
MH. I will briefly take you back to your second operation, but I am not going to dwell on it as we spoke before.
WC. Yeah.
MH. You were after this ten thousand tanker.
WC. Yeah.
MH. I think we have the name of it here, Er, “Toho Maroo”, ten thousand tons.
WC. Yeah.
MC. And then got later sunk.
WC. Yeah.
MC. So she did eventually get sunk?
WC. Yeah, she did eventually get sunk, yeah.
MH. So you set off in heavy rain, monsoon.
WC. Monsoon.
MH. Four aircraft had come back.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And the three of you continued.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Independently or in a flight?
WC. Independently, because the weather was so bad, you couldn’t fly together, it wouldn’t have been safe, I don’t think, but in any case, we were all individually sent you see.
MH. And then, could or couldn’t see the target, couldn’t find the target?
WC. Well we found the target, yeah, and in fact, as we were running up towards the target, we could see that there was a Lancaster, eh Lancaster, a Liberator just flying away from it. I don’t know if he had tried to do a successful bombing run or not, but he tried to get away from it and eh, then as I say, we went in, well we were a sitting target really, the, the Destroyer just sat there and waited till we got there and wallop, and that was it.
MH. So the tanker was being escorted at the time.
WC. Escorted yes, by a Japanese destroyer, yeah.
MH. It was that, that caused the ack ack.
WC. Yeah, yeah, I can’t remember, I don’t, I don’t know whether I blacked out or what, but the actually bracketing of the anti-aircraft fire, our aircraft was all over the place. I don’t know whether it, what happened as I say, and for a few, maybe half a minute in there, I had no idea what was, what was happening, and then we started flying level. Well up the front, I couldn’t see anything of the back, what the aircraft was like at the back, but we were flying something like reasonable. I saw that my intercom had gone, would, would do anyway that, I thought that I’m no good here, I can’t sit as a no, nothing in front, no way I can be of any use, so I will get out and see what’s happening. So I centred the turret, unlocked the doors, turned round and got out the turret, and as I say, there should have been two men there, instead of which the bomb, the nose wheel doors were open and nobody was there so it was a bit worrying for a second or two, but I could see that the pilots were still there. So I got out and reported to the skipper what had happened up front, and then went back, then I found out that the bombs were in a mess so we could jettison some but there was just this one. It was sort of hanging like that, you know, instead of being right and it wouldn’t jettison, so I just had to get rid of it by unscrewing the whole fixture, it was only about, it was only about so big. But four bolts you know, just had to get them off and then had to get these bolts away from the thing and let it drop. It. It went eventually, thank God [laugh].
MH. When you came out of your turret, who did you expect to find there?
WC. I should have been two men there, there should have been the navigator and the bomb aimer there.
MH. But there was nobody.
WC. There was nobody.
MH. Great, and then you could what, see the feet of the two pilots?
WC. Yeah, you could look back up the aircraft and you see the feet. Not far, but you could see, I think it went underneath them in the middle and you could get by. But you could just see the feet on the flight deck you see.
MH. I think you mentioned to me earlier that having gone back towards the bomb bay and everything, that at that point, you were able to see the damage that had been caused.
WC. No I didn’t know, I didn’t know, I knew there had been some damage, but I didn’t know what it was at all. I knew actually, I knew once I got to the bomb bay, because there were two long range fuel tanks should have been in the bomb bay, in the first part of the bomb bay, and they had gone. I think when the ack ack hit us and we were thrown about, they must have broken loose and fell away. Anyway I thought, that’s it, you know, we are obviously now not too well off for fuel but we are flying. So I went back and had a look, got rid of the bombs, eventually and that’s why I went back, and the rear gunner said, “look out there” [laugh], and it wasn’t there.
MH. So for clarification for persons listening, Mr Cooke has gone back to the rear of the aircraft eh, the rear, turret, gunner has pointed out there, the starboard fin and rudder had gone. Totally.
WC. Totally, just as if it would have chopped off or taken a hack saw, it was as clean as a whistle.
MH. So you were down to a crew of how many at that point ?
WC. One, two, three, four, five, six I think it was. One, two, three, four, yes, six.
MH. So six persons are still on board.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Your skipper has decided to keep going.
WC. Keep going, get back home.
MH. Even with the loss of fuel.
WC. Yeah
MH. And you are flying from the Gulf of Siam.
WC. Yeah.
MH. To Rangoon.
WC. Rangoon in Burma, yes.
MH. Would you like to say what happened in Rangoon or not?
WC. Well, yeah, no problem, as I said we, we, we hadn’t, again with the navigator going, we hadn’t got any maps. It was just keep going until you find somewhere, you know, and we found the Irrawaddy Delta I think it’s called, the river that runs down through Burma, and we found a way, we found Rangoon. We came in to try and land at Rangoon, and the ground control says, ”you shouldn’t land here because it is not a fight, it’s not a bomber airfield, you can’t land here it’s not a bomb”, etc. Eh, I mean, a bit of a daft thing to say when you saw the state we were in. Anyway we carried on, we made, I think, one circuit, and on the second circuit, we were coming and in, now whether then the skipper applied flaps and undercarriage down, and that altered the flight characteristics or what I don’t know, but we were going round, and I suddenly heard the engines rev up full power and we went straight in – wallop - and that was it, and the aircraft itself broke into, broke up roughly where we were in the middle, and the eh, you know. One engine was still running, the prop had sheared off and it was still going full belt. The second pilot said, “I switched it off and it stopped”, [laugh] anyway I didn’t realise then that the skipper had, I went up front, got out went up front, “are you ok?” I’ll go and get, I can see some lights, I’ll go and get help. So I set off across this Paddy Field, they tell me it was six foot deep in places, I don’t think that was right, but anyway I was well muddied up with the paddy field. Got to what was an ambulance and I said, “I’ll take you back”. They said, “No, no you stop here, we’ll find it, it’s ok”, and I was then, I just got out of my uniform because it was stinking mud, anyway got rid of that, and then we just waited until the second pilot and the other gunner, he was just behind me, we were on board and I think the flight engineer too, I can’t remember, I can’t remember that chappie, I didn’t know, the one we picked up on Squadron, you see. And anyway from there, when we were unloaded, we went off to the hospital and they got us into the hospital and got us a bed and got me some pyjamas. I don’t know, I think Butch got some pyjamas as well, I am not sure, but anyway they said, “right, get into bed and then take this tablet, don’t take it until you get into bed”, which I did. I took the tablet and that is the last thing I remember until the next day [laugh], It worked efficiently, it knocked me out like a punch up the hooter. And then, the next day, when we were more or less able to get about, you know, they brought the wireless operator in. Of course the two, the flight engineer and the second pilot were flying officers, so they went to a different place than we did and eh, they eh, as I say, the wireless operator came in and I asked him how the skipper was, and he said, “he’s dead”. That shook me up quite a bit, but then we were there for a couple or three days, and they managed to get the wireless operator to start drinking and eating, because they said if he doesn’t he will have to be put on a drip. We got him working and then probably the next day after that, when we got him back to something like a normal carry on, we were shifted to, out of the hospital to a sick quarters, and eh, down step on shall we say, because we did have a bed in the hospital, when we got to the sick quarters, we got a stretcher on the floor with a bit of a mossie net over the top. Again neither of us had anything to cope with, so we were in a room with an Army bloke, Army private I think he was. So when he went for his a meal, he said can we borrow your tackle. I think we had a plate and a mess tin and a knife and fork between us, two of us and we were there for another two or three days, I can’t remember when, but the second pilot came in there and said, “get writing back to your Mum”, he says, “or they will be getting word that you have been injured”, you know. We did that and then from there I say we, I got this uniform, they got me a uniform, in fact we all got one. The second pilot had gone into the stores officer for something and said we need some uniforms for these two, and eh, I think there was about six uniforms in the stores ah, eh, eh green, eh forest green, a dark green anyway, and they were all the same size. The second pilot, I think he was about five ten or six foot so you can imagine what mine looked like. I got, I got a local, local dirty wallah, a tailor bloke came along, and he took it and measured me and I could get it, I could wear it the next day but eh, the waist sort of was here and sort of went out like that [laugh], and he didn’t know much about stripes and crowns, so I got three stripes, they went sort of like that and a little bit less and a little bit less, and the crown on top of that. It made virtually a diamond on my arm, you know, but I got them and I had no hat so as I say, we flew back with that kind of uniform, best we could get. They took us, they took us up to the Squadron and we got kit from the squadron, they sent us down to a transit camp then in Calcutta, and I have got that entry from the CO in the log book. And eh, from then, that’s when I was taken ill when we were doing this medical after the crash, and when I came out of hospital, I was on my todd, there was nobody and I spent some time in that Transit Camp doing nothing, just virtually doing nothing. The local, as far as I can remember it, the local eh, Indian Officers clubs and various things, you know, they would send around an invitation for twenty or thirty men to go and use their swimming baths and have tea and that. You were on your best behaviour no, eh, it was very nice, no eh, I am not mocking it, it was ok, but it was still definitely them and us, you know what I mean, but it was ok [pause to answer telephone]
MH. We will just pause for a second.
MH. So you were then in a Transit Camp.
WC. Yeah.
MH. And then?
WC. Yeah, I was coming up for Warrant Officer at the time, you know, in aircrew, you were sergeant for a year, if you lived, you were flight sergeant after a year, and if you lived again, you were a warrant officer after another year. So I was coming up for warrant officer, I went to see the adjutant I suppose, asked about it, “very well”, he said, “we can’t promote you if you are not doing any specific work”. So I got a job in this canteen liaison office in Calcutta. I went down there and we were sending parcels back for the lads, they’d come in with a chitty and pay the cash, and we, they’d buy something in town and we’d make it up, we had a tailor on running, and he would make it up, sew it up, stick the labels on and then sent it back, and we would supervise all that, you see and eh, and eh, as I say, I spent a while doing that. Then I was, I was shovelled onto another officer who was doing actually canteen liaison, that was it, he was working out the beer and liquor rations for the various stations in the Calcutta area. He got demobbed and he went off sharpish, and I was left doing that for while and then as I say, they came round looking for odd bods not doing important work and they got posted to Dumdum, and I was working on freight mail there, working on loading aircraft, that was ok and eh -
MH. How about your apprentice loader?
WC. Aye.
MH. Your apprentice loader and what happened.
WC. Yeah, yeah, he was a new starter on the, on the, he was one of the, I won’t say coolies, he was one of the Native Bearers we used to call them I think, and eh, we got this load to put on a Dakota and we backed up to the Dakota, and we were going very merrily and chucking the parcels off and chucking them on the aircraft. Well he grabbed a parcel that he thought was a parcel and chucked it up the aircraft, but it was a dinghy and of course, doing that triggered off the CO2 bottle, and the dinghy went up like, almost like a miniature bomb inside the aircraft and eh, the next thing, I looked up the runway and this lad was going like the clappers up the runway. But we fetched him back and I explained it to the officer in charge of that loading area, aircraft and he said, “ok”, he could barely keep a straight face. He said, “ok”, he says, “we’ll let him off”, he says, “get him back to work and it will be ok”.
MH. Your time in India and your time at Dumdum airport wasn’t the only incident you had. You had one particular, one on the Lancaster I believe, on the FIDO trip?
WC. Oh, that was on 49 Squadron that was, yeah, yeah. It was eh, an ordinary trip as far as I can remember, I can’t remember where it was supposed to be, anyway we went out to our aircraft, got on board and everything checked out or seemed to be, then we got a mag drop on one engine, a very big one, and they couldn’t fix it so that was it. The CO said, “get onto the standby aircraft and take that one”. So we get onto that and all this takes a fair bit of time, you know, so we gets on, checks up again, and by now the bulk of the other aircraft had now taken off. So we gets into the line, last in the line of course, and as we gets up to the runway, we see that there is a Lancaster, burst tyre, right at the end of the take off runway, which means we had to go up to the next junction runway, come back on that and down the runway and turn at the bottom and then take off. All the others went and we were called to the runway and nipping along at a fair pace, you know, And eh, as I say, that is when the skipper said words to the effect of, “oh dear, oh dear, we haven’t got any brake pressure”, and the only thing he could do was to rev up engines on one side to turn the aircraft that way, and run half off the runway, onto the grass and over the FIDO pipes, which eventually stopped us. There were three, I think they were about inch and a half diameter pipes on a, sat on a triangle you know, they went, they got two nice marks where the wheels went, and that was it. But as I say, we thought this is it, we’re ok now, we’ve had our crisis, tried to take off but we couldn’t hack it, but we should be alright. We got off and the CO was asking what had happened and all that, and another officer came up and said, “if we get permission, to take off straight away and fly direct, it could just about get there for the rest of them”, you see, and that’s where I suddenly, nearly, kneed a no, no area [laugh], I think it was one of the most frightening times that was, those few minutes but the CO, he knew what he was on about and he said, “no way”, and that were it, we got away with it. But I can still think back to that, if you send them direct, Oh my God [laugh].
MH. How much damage did you do to the spare aircraft, the standby aircraft, how much damage was done to it?
WC. Well it was, it, it wasn’t any as far as I remember, it wasn’t any real damage. The brake pressure had gone and it had just spun it off and the FIDO pipes actually stopped it. It went over it and it had stopped any momentum on the grass, and I don’t think there was any real damage other than the loss of brake pressure.
MH. So we come to demob.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Fifteenth of February 1947.
WC. Yeah, it was March by the time we got in and it was the end of the very bad winters frost and snow, it had started to melt and there were floods all over. Is one ok, not far off. And eh, and as I say, I managed to get back by train to Nottingham but there were no more trains or buses into Mansfield from there, so I cadged a lift on a GPO van. He dropped me in Mansfield about ten minutes, quarter of an hour from home. It was throwing it down with rain, but I was home and that was it mate [laugh].
MH. You said that you were greeted by your Mum and your Sister.
WC. Yeah
MH. What happened to your elder Brother.
WC. Well he was married, of course, I think he was demobbed by then, but he was at home obviously, you see.
MH. So he had beaten you out of demob then?
WC. Oh yeah, yeah, he was in before me and out before me.
MH. Was your Sister still in the WAAFS at that time.
WC. No, no actually she got pregnant and she got out of the WAAFS, you know, and she had a very bad time of it too. But anyway, she survived that and as I say, by then she got these arrangements made to go to America.
MH. And 49 Association.
WC. Yeah.
MH. Going strong
WC. Yeah.
MH. How long have you been in it?
WC. I would say, I would say at least five years I think, I think Steve got us in about the turn of the century, something like that, and we had a, a reunion and it was at Woodhall Spa. Can’t remember the name of the hotel, but this hotel during the war was the officers mess for 617 Squadron.
MH. The Petwood.
WC. The Petwood that was it, yeah, that’s it, and we had the reunion there and we went to the memorial on the November. We didn’t get into the, the reunions after that for a while for some reason, well the wife has not been too well as I say, being diabetic, and her eyes are now beginning to go so she really needs somebody to set the things up for her, you see. But eh, we did, we did get to this last years reunion, just overnight and she went into one of the local care centres in town and stayed there and eh, as I say, we went and had a reunion, quite nice too. A fair number turned up, you know, and then the memorial, on memorial Sunday, we go to Fiskerton church and then we go up to the airfield and lay a wreath, we have had a fly past there too. The Lancaster, you know, comes and sees us.
MH. Could I ask you finally then, for your opinions of how Bomber Command is thought of, how you think it is portrayed to the public of today erm, and what you see as Bomber Commands legacy from the war as such?
WC. Well I didn’t realise it when I came back from India, but there was a bad time when the, you know, we were not all that popular it, it didn’t fit with the politicians what we had been doing. But I think now it is generally turning round, they are beginning to realise just what was been done by Bomber Command and how useful it was, because they were the only branch of the forces that could actually fight the Germans all the time, they were going all the time you see. I think eh, nowadays they are still a good deterent, I think, I think you know we can, they do well for what they are doing. Eh, I think the general public has a better regard for Bomber Command now than it did some years ago. It went through that bad spell you know, when everybody thought that we were naughty boys, bombing like the Germans did and all that. They are getting now to think that they did a damn good job and that’s it. So I think it is getting, getting a better publicity now shall we say, better rating shall we say. I hope that there is not any chance that they might have to do what we did then. I don’t think it will come to that because, anyway, anyone with common sense can see if, if it comes to that where there is a worldwide, there won’t be any world. It’ll, It’ll be done if they every use the nuclear weapons, it only needs one to use them and I am afraid we shan’t be able to stop it. We will have to, we will have to retaliate whether we want to or not and unfortunately everybody will have to retaliate and it will be all over. Which is as long as the politicians keep this in the back of their minds, it’s a good thing, it’s a good thing because I shouldn’t think anyone will be daft enough, I would have thought, to let it go that far.
MH. So is there anything else you would like to add, is there anything else you would like to say in relation to your time in Bomber Command and subsequently -
WC. Other than since I have been out, I have had one or two rough spells but ok, I am doing nicely now thank you very much, and this retirement job is the best one I have had [laugh] and it’s the longest one too and the rest of the time, it’s been a few years here and a few years there or move to somewhere else in the same industry, you know. And this No. 8 Little Barn is the best place I’ve been working with [laughs].
MH. Thank you very much.
WC. You’re welcome.
MH. Erm, Mr Cooke, this afternoon, been a privilege. It’s been a great pleasure to meet you and your Son. I’m going to stop the tape, if something comes to mind, we can add it on. I’m going to stop the tape now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Cooke
Creator
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Mark Hunt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-02
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookeWH150902
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Format
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01:30:24 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
William Cooke joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18, becoming a rear gunner on Lancasters. He followed his brother and sister into the RAF.
Tells of his spell of guard duty on board a troop ship, and losing one of the people he was showing around.
William was based at 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe, then No. 5 Lancaster Finishing School in Syerston, and then on 49 Squadron, as a rear gunner on Lancasters.
He flew a variety of aircraft, including Wellingtons with the Operational Training Unity, Avro Ansons on an Air Gunner course, Avro Lancasters and the American B24 Liberator at Kola Airfield.
He tells of his experiences after he and his crew went to India in 1944, after his skipper was posted there and flying operations to Rangoon and Burma.
William tells of how Lancasters fly at night, his bombing raid on a tanker and his encounter with a Mosquito which did not give any identification. He also tells of his crash and the death of his skipper.
William was demobbed in February 1947, and after the war worked for local water authorities until they were incorporated into Severn Trent. He retired just before his 65th birthday.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
1661 HCU
49 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bomb struck
crash
demobilisation
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
radar
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Winthorpe
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/530/8764/PShawSR1604 copy.2.1.jpg
6ef757ed0517a8dee79afa1e17d1d6e6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/530/8764/AShawS160114.2.mp3
dcd6df4d27938dea630da3984b0221a7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Shaw, Stanley R
S R Shaw
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Shaw, SR
Description
An account of the resource
37 items. An oral history interview with Stanley Shaw (3002545 Royal Air Force) Photographs, documents and his log book. He served with a Repair and Salvage Unit and attended many crashes. He later served in North Africa and the Middle East.
The collection also contains two photograph albums; one of his RAF service and one of his time in a cycle club.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Stanley Shaw and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2016-01-14
2016-02-11
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SC: Now that should be recording so we’ll put that just there.
SS: Lovely.
SC: I’ll stand it up if it will stay up. Yeah. So, we’re doing the interview today with Mr Stanley Shaw at your home address — XXXXXX, Derby.
SS: Yes.
SC: I’m Steve Cooke, I’m doing the interview today. Thank you very much for inviting me into your house as well Stanley, to do the interview, I really appreciate it.
SS: Oh, it’s a pleasure. It’s a pleasure. [Peter]
SC: What I wanted to do was start in the early years, and just ask you, were you born and bred in Derby? And, why you wanted to join the RAF and the ATC?
SS: Yes, I was born at a very early age. 1926, not a very good year. There was a general strike on.
SC: Oh yeah.
SS: Churchill sent the troops to kill the miners but we lived in a slum in Derby. Two, two room, two up, two down as we used to call it. No hot, no hot water, no gas. Copper, the dolly pegs and all that caper. And, well there was no fat kids running about in them days I can assure you.
SC: Yes.
SS: Because we lived practically on a diet of bread and, bread and jam, or bread and dripping, whatever was handy. But I was a sickly child and the doctor said, ‘If you can raise him till he’s seven, he might pull through’.
SC: Gosh.
SS: But I was a regular attender at the Temple House Clinic for sunray treatment, instead of going to the seaside. My dad said Skegness was Russian propaganda, no such place. So, I had that and I wore teen glasses for a bit, and an operational twitch, and I succumbed. I was alright at school, loved history, loved history. And as I went on, about, I think I’d be about five or six, Alan Cobham and his Flying Circus came to Derby, and my dad had a bike in them days with a basket on the front, and he used to take me everywhere. And I can remember, well and truly, going to this place, called it Sentry Meadows in Derby, and lo and behold, these ex-1914/18 aircraft — patched up, fabric jobs, Biplanes. The stunts they performed and you could have a trip up for five shillings.
SC: Wow.
SS: The problem was five shillings was a lot of money in those days.
SC: Yeah.
SS: So, there wasn’t much chance of that, and as I went on through the years, I was very interested, very interested in aircraft. Always. That was the days of the Frog Models, you could buy a little one for five shilling in a box, and you used to stick the wings on and increase the revs on the handle, and it didn’t fly very well, but at five bob, good value for five bob. And took the Modern Wonder, that was another magazine at that time. Very, very descriptive on aircraft — the Modern Wonder. And I had an uncle, now, not many people had cars in those days. You were either a doctor or some exquisite person, a businessman, if you had a car and he had a, the old Flying Standard. And I think it was 1937, he took me and my father up to Hucknall, which was the home of the Nottingham, the Nottingham Air Squadron Defence. And they flew, I just forget - Hawker Hinds, Hawker Hind biplanes, all silver and polished. They were beautiful they were. And then, that was in 1937, that’s, that’s when I saw the first Wellington. This black fabric covered job in the corner. A bit secret at that time. And then in 1938, he took me again and, lo and behold, we’d got Battles, and they were the be all and end all. They could beat any fighter and all that, which were a load of twaddle really, but very, very interesting that was. And I said then, in 1938/’39, and I left school, I left school in Easter 1940 because my birthday is on January the 10th, and in those days, if you was born in the new year, you didn’t qualify to leave at Christmas, so I had to go till Easter.
SC: Yeah.
SS: That was a body blow that was. And I left school on the Friday, and I started work on the Monday. No — plenty of jobs around in them days because the war was on, and I worked at a garage. One interesting point, in the garage, when Dunkirk happened, we had a complete battalion of squaddies got straight off the boat from Dunkirk, shipped them up to Spondon village, and they hadn’t got a rifle between them.
SC: Right.
SS: They’d got absolutely nothing. They’d come up here by train I should imagine, and they had their headquarters in Spondon village, and they kept their petrol supply at our garage, and it was brown. No chance of nicking any because it was brown in colour [laughs], and I can remember in those days, the military could acquire any vehicle. Civilian. They just walked up and say, ‘Thank you very much, that’s ours’. And this battalion, the despatch rider was only about five foot tall and he’d got this twin, twin cylinder Matchless 1000.
SC: Right.
SS: Well, he used to bring it down to the garage and we used to fill his tank for him, and then somebody had to kick it started for him because he wasn’t strong enough to kick it. But I remember one morning, I was filling a customer’s car and it was a bit misty, and I heard this roar, and we got, we got an anti-aircraft battery up in the village by this time up, on the rise there, and they’d got a Bofors gun, and I heard this bang, bang, bang. I looked up and there was this German aircraft which is well known, this German aircraft flying, which bombed Royce’s that morning.
SC: Gosh.
SS: He flew all the way down from, came in from Hull, came down here and he bombed. He bombed Royce’s.
SC: Royce’s.
SS: And people say, ‘You didn’t see that did you?’ Well, just one of them things.
SC: Yeah.
SS: You saw it but I know one thing. The traverse of the gun was that low, it was nearly knocking the chimney pots off because as it flew —
SC: Gosh.
SS: It was that low.
SC: Yeah.
SS: That they followed it and of course, the lower it got, the worse the firing got. I saw that, and then also, while I worked at the garage, one day I looked up and there was an aeroplane with black crosses on it. I think it was a Junkers 88 reconnaissance flying, flying over and that was shot down at Lincoln on it’s, on its way back. A Spitfire shot that down. That was, and then Saturday lunchtime. I can remember it was a Saturday lunchtime, when I was fourteen and a half and listening, listening to the — well you did listen to the news, because it was all war, and this chap from the Air Ministry got on and said, ‘We’re going to form a new arm of Air Force’. Pre-training for the Air Force because we’ve lost that many, you know, to Dunkirk and in France, the Battle of France, that we’re short. We need recruits urgently and we want them partially trained.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Which was a good deal for the RAF, it took a lot of weight off them. And I thought, right, and it said apply at your local councillor. Well, a councillor, I knew about councillors in them days but didn’t used to bother. Somebody said, ‘Mr Fred West at Borrowash’, which is where we are, so I jumped on my old Vindec bike, scooters up there, hammers on his door. ‘What do you want?’ I said, ‘I’d like to join the Air Training Corps’. He said, ‘I’ve not had the papers through yet’. I was a bit pre you see, and then I went to the first, I went to the first, well it wasn’t a parade, it was just the lads that were interested and I can remember it as plain as day. We went up to the Wilmot Arms at Borrowash and there was four of us. There was a chap called Austin Shaw that lived in Spondon, he became a pilot later on. There was a lad called George Wood and the lad called Bancroft and myself. We were the first four to get there and out of our four, George Wood was shot down in 1944 on a Lanc, a Lancaster rear gunner, and he was shot down and he’s buried in Bergen Op Zoom, Holland. I’ve never had occasion to go, I’ve been to Holland a couple times, I’d love to go and see because he got married and he had a baby and he never saw the baby. He never saw it. Very tragic. And from the four we blossomed, we blossomed. Everybody in Spondon and surrounding wanted to fly. Oh, they all wanted to fly. And we formed 1117 Squadron, and we got that big, we got that big, we formed four flights — A, B, C and D.
SC: Wow.
SS: Which were Spondon, Territory Hill — Chaddesden, the racecourse and Chester Green. All the four flights. In all, we were well over two hundred cadets.
SC: Gosh.
SS: Well over. And we had a civilian, he was an engineer at the Celanese at the time, and he’d got a big house in Spondon with a big loft. And we had a ground staff, we had aircrew. They were studying navigation and everything appertaining, Morse code and everything, and we were, well I was already an apprentice fitter so they made me a corporal, because I’d got a bit more knowledge than they had. And, yeah, and then came the days of visits to aerodromes. I think I’ve already mentioned about Burnaston, managed to get a flip. We went to Burnaston for a week, week’s camp. Roughed it a little bit as we thought, and they’d got Tiger Moths and Magisters, Miles Magisters, and they were 16 AFTS Flight Training School. And from there we went to better things, we went to Ashbourne Aerodrome for a week, which flew Whitleys and Ansons and Blenheims.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Well we had one officer, Mr Rigby, a rather nice chap, they took him up for a flight. They didn’t tell him where they were going, and when he came back, he told about these little black puffs of smoke behind the aeroplane. ‘Yes. That was flak, sir. We’ve been across to northern France, having a shufty around and come back again’. Didn’t tell him where he was going, joy trip it was. Well, Ansons were the name of the game, because you trained the pilot, navigator, wireless operator, bombardier all in the same aeroplane. So, we used to fly down to North Wales on the Brecon Beacons dropping these white, little white twenty five pounder bombs.
SC: Yeah.
SS: If you hit anything — I don’t think so, not very often. And as I say, then the last camp I went to was a bomber, it was a proper bomber station, at Hixon near Staffordshire. And Wellingtons, that was my first encounter with a Wellington and well, I mean, the ATC were smart. I kid you not they were very smart, and I was the right marker. So, I mean, this is an operational, this is an operational ‘drome with the erks wandering around, with their knives and forks dangling on their belt. Dead scruffy because they’d probably been working all night, caps on at fitter 2 angle, and we were there and we just paraded on the ground [unclear], all these lads used to stand there laughing. Smirking as well. ‘Bloody different when you get in mate’, and we managed to get a trip there. But you see, OTUs are a bit different. Every OTU operation is a little bit different, so the — our officer, he was the last, he was a World War One, First World War pilot and he, he was in charge of us, and he said, ‘I’ve got you a trip’. I thought, well I’m not really bothered really, ‘cause I’m not into flying. ‘I’ve managed to get you a trip’, you see, and it was this Wellington and we went down to the flight. They give you a mask and, you know oxygen bag, helmet and whatnot, parachute, and we got on the truck that was taking the crew out on this test flight. Just come out the hangar. Apparently it had had a new wing fitted, and there was us sitting there, our lads. Two lads sitting there, these hardened types sitting there, they said, ‘Have you got a date tonight?’ I don’t know what — ‘Have you got a date tonight?’ I said, ‘Yeah’. He said, ‘You can scrub around that’, he said, ‘I expect the flaming wings are gonna fall off’. This is just as we were starting trying. I was sitting there, I don’t want nothing to do with this sort of thing, and we went and sat in it, and the lad that I was with, he’d never been up before. We went up and he started throwing it about and we looked out, and there was a Mark I Mustang, and we were on a little bit of aircraft fighter affiliation in which case you were, you know, you were swinging it about a bit. And we came, we finished that, came away from there and then, as I say, I volunteered. I did volunteer, I always meant going in and I was still working at Celanese, Apprentice fitter, which meant I had to break my, I had to break my apprenticeship, and well that was it. I mean I told them, I said, ‘I’ve been in the Air Training Corps all this time’.
SC: Yeah.
SS: ‘I don’t want to miss out’, And — yes, I went from there, and at that time, we’d moved to Spondon. We lived in Spondon and we had six soldiers billeted with us. If you’d got a three-bedroom house —
SC: Right.
SS: And you got one room to spare, you got, you got six squaddies because the British Celanese was a huge depot for armaments, lorries and anything. So all these lads were in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Working down there in civvy billets you see, and how my mum used to feed them six, I do not know.
SC: Yeah.
SS: ‘Cause they used to come in, you know, barely enough to keep them.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And you’d got to find food and rationing and whatnot, queuing, and they were from all over the country. You know, different places they came from, different accents and of course, I was about seventeen, yeah, seventeen and a half, seventeen and three quarter. And I got my, I got my papers on the day before Christmas day, and they were all, you know, ‘You’ll be alright’, kind of thing. And yes, I was eighteen. I was eighteen on the one day and I went in the next.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Went in the next. Dad took me down to the station and well, I was, you see, it wasn’t as if you had just been plucked out of civvy street like a lot of, a lot of lads were.
SC: Yeah.
SS: I mean these lads that were conscripted, they didn’t have the, they didn’t have the luxury of being pre-trained.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Now, when you, when you, as soon as you got on to Cardington, which was a recruiting centre which did all the training and everything, you was half qualified you know.
SC: Yeah
SS: I mean, the RAF, you know. Thank God somebody knows what they’re doing.
SC: Yeah.
SS: But the Air Training Corps were prefixed with the numbers 300, so they just looked at your number and, 3002545, they knew straight away you were ex, ex-Training Corps and I was pretty fit, I was pretty fit in them days. And on the second day, no, the second week we were there, we got this contingent, a contingent of West Indians come, the black lads from West Indies, and January was cold.
SC: Right.
SS: I can assure you, it was cold and they had a cross-country run. A cross country run. Starting out, I think there was a hundred and forty four altogether, we were all in flights, sections, you know. I think there was about nine flights altogether with about, what? Thirty lads in each. And you’d got an drill instructor, corporal and a sergeant, and they had this cross country. Everybody had got to be in it, it didn’t matter if you could run or not. And there were, there’s two big hangars at Cardington where they used to store the airships, R101, two big hangars, and there was a narrow gap, like a road, down there. Well it was a cross country, so I set off amongst the pack. Saw these big athletic West Indian lads, I don’t stand a cat in hell’s chance here, and I was running along and saw this chap with “Polytechnic Harriers” written on it. I thought that looks a bit interesting, he’ll be the right lad to follow.
SC: Yeah.
SS: So I get behind and as we ran through these hangars, there was a bit of a wind blowing, so luckily I was, I’ve tucked in behind and then when we got outside — about two hundred yards — that was the finishing line. So he’d had it when he got to the end of the road and I chuffed in and managed to get first. And this officer type came across — he give me, what was it? He gave me a thirty-shilling postal order.
SC: Wow.
SS: And gave me a leave, a leave pass for the weekend. Never been done before, you see because I mean until you could march and look decent, they didn’t let you out of Cardington.
SC: Yeah.
SS: You know, and I went home. And these soldiers, ‘What are you doing home then? Have they kicked you out already?’ I said, ‘No’.
SC: For coming first
SS: And when I got back again of course, it was steam trains then, you know, and always full.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Always. Derby station. And always this smoke used to hang about, acrid smoke there was. If you went through a tunnel, made sure all the windows were shut.
SC: Yeah.
SS: It used to puther in, and you’re like a —
SC: Yeah.
SS: And you come out the other side. And when I got back, they were all lying in their bunks moaning and whatnot, and I said, ‘What’s up?’ ‘We’ve had the inoculations today. Oh you know, we’ve had jabs and this, that and the other’, and I thought, well I’ve not had it. They said, ‘No, but you’ll get it tomorrow though’. Yeah, I enjoyed that cross country running, twenty two mile march with half pack and rifle, and the chap that was in charge, a warrant officer, he was sixty-five odd and he marched at the front.
SC: Wow.
SS: He marched at the front and we went out. Had soup, hot soup out of the kitchen, and the jam butty sandwich and we marched eleven miles back. We got just outside Bedford, and he said, ‘Now, you buggers, lift your eyes up. Don’t tell these civilians you’re sagging. Get yourself’, and we did. Looked as if we’d just come up and started the march. But very, very good. Did grenade throwing, rifle, firing the sten, the — what was it? The Browning machine gun. We fired that.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And very, very, very interesting that was. It was to get you fit.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Now the food was rough, I would say, the food was adequate. You got the calories and after six weeks training, if they’d have said, ‘Stanley, run through that brick wall’, I would have done. You’re like, you’re like butcher’s dogs you know.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And then that was all finished you see, and then we got posted for training, so they got me down, they got me down as air frames so, at Halton this was, a beautiful place. It was on the Rothschild estate.
SC: Gosh.
SS: Near Halton.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Buckinghamshire. Nearest village was Wendover which had a Church Army little tea place where you could have a shine and a wad, and we did six, tem weeks intensive, intensive, riggers course.
SC: Yeah.
SS: We did the basic, basic fitting. Now, I’d already been fitting and all this caper.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And they threw a great big piece of steel at you and said, ‘We want you to make something that is square and file it so that fits in there’. Well, I thought, this is going to take weeks this is, so I looked — I had a look around. It was a big workshop and all the machinery was belt driven in them days, a great big grindstone, so I thought — right. So, I sneaks down there with this and of course, if you press down hard enough, you get a great big shower of sparks.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And have you ever had that notice, feeling, that somebody is standing behind watching you? So, I thought, and it was a sergeant. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘Hello. What are you doing then?’ I said, ‘I’m fetching, I’m fetching some of this metal’, I said, ‘There’s a heck of a lot to file off’. He said, ‘That’s the idea’, he said, ‘You’ll use a hacksaw and then you’ll file it into shape. No — no grinding mate. Here’s another piece of metal’. Bigger than that one [laughs], but we did rigging. Very interesting that was, rigging, but you see, we didn’t rig the Tiger Moth, which is a biplane, which we spent two days with the dihedral boards, angles — this kind of — all the measurements and we couldn’t — it was a degree out. Couldn’t possibly get it, couldn’t possibly get the dihedral on the wings and we told the instructor, ‘We’ve tried everything’. ‘Well’, he said, ‘You won’t’, he said. ‘That’s why Brooklands Flying Club threw it out. It was no good’. They didn’t tell you that before you started. And we went out on the grass airfield, we swung the propeller, that was an art. That was a Tiger Moth and you had to swing a propeller, and then they got a clapped-out Spitfire, and the idea was that the engine people, we were divided, airframes and engines, the engine people used to sit in the cockpit and the airframe bods used to lean across the tail plane at the back. Of course when you revved the Spitfire, the natural tendency was to tip up on its nose.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Or belt across the airfield — so — off the brake. So, we all lodged, lodged on the, on the, across the tail to hold the tail down, so if your cap blew off, which it did mostly, about three fields away before you found it. But that was very interesting. And one incident, it was midsummer and we’re talking 1944 now, and no water on the camp, run out of water so they sent us home, sent us home for a week but just before we went, the Americans were here by this time.
SC: Right.
SS: And the air was full of Forts and Liberators, and this Fort come steaming around, of course, we’d only got a grass airfield at Halton, come steaming around and lowered his undercarriage. By the way, already on the camp was two hundred WAAFs. By this name of the game, the girls were coming in and taking, and taking the place of the blokes, doing the same job, mechanics.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And of course, they trained in one part, we trained in the other. And this Fort landed and the doors opened and these lads fell out, with all their fur lined clobber and the you know, Mae Wests, yellow Mae Wests and smoking cigars. Of course, these girls descended on them [laughs], I think they survived to go, to take off again. They said they’d lost their way, they’d lost their way. And yeah, we came back off leave, and then it was posting time then. Then you were fully trained, or thought you were, and then life began in earnest then, life really began. And we formed up outside for the postings and, ‘You go there’. ‘You go there’. ‘You go there’. Oh, by the way does anyone, anyone here like to volunteer for flight engineers. Well, at this time the chop rate was very, very high, in some cases you were probably losing two out of four, you know, which was bad really. So, air crew, they was at a premium. They weren’t training them fast enough but they got these lads overseas in Canada and south, so they were beginning to filter through, but until then the flight engineer’s course, it was different of course. When they took the four engine bombers over, they did away with the second pilot. They had to look after the four engines, they had the flight engineer who used to look after a;; the fuel and the revs and all that caper, and the workings of the aircraft, and they were the second, more or less the second dickie.
SC: Yeah.
SS: I think they were trained how to fly straight and level, not to land it.
SC: No.
SS: Not to land the thing, but, ‘Any volunteers?’ And if there was, you got a white flash on your cap, you know, that was for going on to aircrew, and this chap came up and he said, ‘Right’, he said, ‘Salvage’. I said, ‘Eh?’ He said, ‘Salvage’. I said, ‘Have I spent flaming all this time training in all this and I’m going on salvage?’ He said, ‘Not the salvage you mean’, he said, ‘You’ll be posted to 54 Maintenance, Repair And Salvage Unit, at Cambridge’, he said, ‘On Trumpington Road’. He said, ‘That is where all the stuff is kept. The slings and the cranes and the low loaders. All the tools appertaining’, he says, ‘and you will all be part of a salvage party’, which, there was nine, there was nine salvage parties and it were your job that if any aircraft crashes, whether it American, Free French, RAF, anything — you will go out and you will bring it back. If it’s a CatE1, that’ll be a sweep up, you’ll just take your dustpan out and your brush and that’ll be it. It’s completely scrap.
SC: Gosh.
SS: Or you catch a CatB. Now a CatB has belly flopped or he’s had a slight landing accident, and it was stripped down carefully, quickly but carefully. And that, in the case of the Lancaster, which was seven low loaders, Queen Mary’s, which was stripped it off in to different parts. All the engines came out on one loader, the wings, the tail, the fins and everything. And then the wings, they took the wings off and they were leant on sideways. So, and some were wide loads, you know, I mean there was no danger of [laughs], they just went through a town and demolished everything that was on the sides. And yes it was quite, quite an interesting job and we got, we were billeted in Jesus College, Cambridge.
SC: Gosh.
SS: Among the graduates you see.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And the pokey hole. I don’t know, no wonder them graduates used to hang themselves, you know. You used to go up these little winding stairs, all the paintwork was dark green wood or dark brown and we got four metal beds and three biscuits and a couple of blankets, and of course, next door to the camp, and if you hadn’t got a bicycle, everybody got a bicycle but if you hadn’t got a mortar board and a gown, they didn’t take much different but we used to dine in the great dining hall.
SC: Wow.
SS: And we had three long tables and then one across the top. The one on the top, the professors and top people sat, and just here, we had the officers and the warrant officers for our lot, and then we had the bods in the middle. And then on this one we had the undergrads. And we had our own, own mess, cookery, the WAAFs. We had some lovely meals. The other lads going to theirs, coming back with a half a tomato and a lettuce and you know, we were fed pretty well, and we were there for quite a time and then we went to Newmarket. Now, Newmarket was a grass ‘drome and it was on the, on the racecourse itself.
SC: Right.
SS: And — but whilst we were at Cambridge, I’ll start there, while we was at Cambridge, I think nearly every week we had a crash, every week. It didn’t matter where they landed, where they landed. If they landed in water, trees, open land — and just give you a couple of incidents, I can’t give you them all because I can remember them all, but you’ll be here ‘til [laughs]. The first one we went to was a Lancaster at a place called Mepal. Now, that was a Bomber Command station, and we went up there and that was the first one I’d been on, and there was a little lad — he was called an ACHGD. That means Aircraft Hand General Duties. So, they put him with us to keep him out the road I think, and this sergeant, a Sergeant Donovan, he was brilliant on the makeup, the weight-up of the human body to counterbalance, he was very good sticking bods up to balance the thing up, if we hadn’t got the right tackle. And this Lanc was in the hangar, so we were fetching the nose section off and we got the slings, what we thought were the proper ones, and when we lifted it, it was slightly nose heavy, which means we couldn’t lower it down on to the low loader in the right position. So, we said to this little lad, ‘Climb up there and sit in the end there to balance it’. Well, the next thing, it dipped and this lad fell out, bust his arm, and the sergeant said, very sympathetic, he said, ‘Get off up to the sick station, sick quarters’, and this little lad went up and he said he just nose-dived in a Halifax, and they said, ‘Well where was this?’ He said, ‘Well, in the hangar —‘ and of course it wasn’t a Halifax, it was a Lancaster.
SC: A Lancaster.
SS: But he didn’t go out with us again because he’d broken his arm, but that was one of the easy ones, but then you started on the really bad ones. We went to a place called Chedburgh, which is quite near Newmarket. That was a, that was a Heavy Conversion Unit using the four engine Stirling bomber which the pilot was twenty two foot of the ground before you, before you took off or anything. Of course, the angle and the wing, it had a huge undercarriage and what they’d done to get it in the hangar which was, the wingspan was too long to get it in the hangar, they’d taken some off the wings which made it. If you got up to seventeen thousand foot in a Stirling, you was very lucky. Very, very lucky, they’d no altitude at all, and we went, we went on this one and he said, ‘There’s a Stirling. It’s still on the runway with a canopy missing, and then there’s another one just to the side that’s crashed.. So, we went, we went up to this place, Chedburgh, and there was the Stirling, sitting on the end of runway, still on its legs and the canopy had gone. What had happened, it was standing on the runway waiting to take off, the other Stirling — it was night — the other Stirling was coming on and I don’t know what happened, but one of his undercarriage wheels, which was huge, huge tyre, had struck the top of the canopy, knocked it off. And the pilot who was sitting up there he was, he was on the dashboard. He was a goner. He was on the board, what was left of him.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And it were hot, It was quite warm and of course, the first thing they did was climbed up in to the cockpit. You got that for a start. I was only eighteen at the time so, you know, it was just a little bit unnerving, and we got that and then we had to strip the other Stirling down, but they towed that one into a hangar, stuck a new canopy on it and that was ready for off again.
SC: Gosh.
SS: The worst one we did was a Liberator, this was in 1945, a Liberator. In those days, in 1945, Norfolk, Suffolk and all the eastern counties, the ground and the air throbbed because you’d got a thousand American four engine bombers climbing out, because they’d got to get altitude and they had these special planes called Judas. They called them Judas because they went back to the ‘drome, the other ones didn’t. It had all coloured in stripes and balls and flash colours and they used to fly alongside the other aircraft, firing verey cartridges like a shepherd and his sheep, getting them all into form because they’d all got to be stacked in the correct formation, which was better to defend their selves before they set out. And you could just imagine these going around and around, the air was alive.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And we got this message. We went to Ely, just outside Ely. We took a road from Ely to Downham Market, the main road, a place called Black Horse Fen. Well in the fen district, the soil, you could thrust your arm and up to your elbow — it was black, beautiful black soil, right for agriculture, and we went to pick up a Liberator and the first thing — when we got there, it was still smoking. Still smoke coming out of it and dogs running about, that was a bad sign. And here was the back end, the fin and rudder and the rear turret and the two waist gunners.
SC: Yeah.
SS: It had gone like that. It had blown up at sixteen thousand foot with the one — I don’t, they don’t know what happened, but I think American crews tended to get, have a fag you know.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And the Liberator, as soon as you climbed, you could smell hundred octane petrol and this thing, this thing had blown up with a full bomb load on board.
SC: Gosh.
SS: And it had spread about three miles. You’d got this tail end here with the two waist gunners in, you’d got like a depression in the ground, that was where one of them had got blown out and his chute hadn’t opened so that was how he landed. The nose section — there was five in there, that had really gone in. That’s what was burning and nothing smells worse than a burning aircraft. The wing was missing. The four engines — they might, you might have placed them like that, in four, and the bombs were underneath the engines.
SC: Wow.
SS: So, they called the bomb disposal squad, they came out, they said, ‘Well we couldn’t actually get the bombs until you get the engines out’. So, oh. Well in them days, you didn’t have the, we had cranes, the Coles crane, and then there was one with a long, long gib what — didn’t use, didn’t use that so very often. But if the ground was soft, you was bogged down pretty well and had to use the steel mattings, and of course, you had to get the engines up first. ‘Don’t touch that’ [laughs] ‘Be careful lad’, [laughs]. And we didn’t get the nose out at all, we just filled it back in because I mean, it was sitting there and what looked like a flying suit, pulled this arm, arm you see, so we just covered it in. But the farmers were, and the Air Ministry were very, very careful about the ammunition, because Americans used a .5 which is rather bigger than a 303.
SC: Yeah.
SS: I mean the 303s were like peashooters, and these .5s, they’d huge belts with them. I mean some of the Fortresses carried thirteen guns, thirteen .5s. That is a lot of ammunition. Well, I don’t think the Liberator carried quite as much as that, but you see, when an aircraft crashed, everything went all ways and it was nothing for a farmer with his tractor —
SC: Yeah.
SS: To run over a belt of .5s and frighten himself to death.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Of course, there used to, used to be explosive. What’s them? Tracer bullets and all the lot. So, you made sure that it was pretty clear and for some reason, there’s a farmer. He said, ‘There’s a wing’, there’s a wing gone in his farmyard, so, we thought, well it must be this one. Well the Liberator’s a Davis wing, which is about a hundred and four wing span I think, very, very thin camber, not as good as a Fortress in formation because they tend to wander around a little bit. But we went there and he said, ‘Since this thing crashed’, he says, ‘My fowls have stopped laying’, he said, ‘No eggs and they’ve stopped laying’. So, we thought, ‘Oh it must have been the shock so’, and he said, ‘I’ve got a wireless set as well’. So, we thought — wireless set, good, we’ve got one for the truck. We haven’t got one for the truck and he brings it out and it’s a big yellow box like that, with a handle on it and he said, ‘And you might as well have this as well’. It was like a big cardboard tube, and it was a emergency transmitter. When they landed in a dinghy, they used to crank the handle and they needed a kite with the aerial on in this to — there was a great big aluminium and silk kite. Six foot.
SC: Wow.
SS: So, moi had that, I had that - a trophy. And of course, this thing was no good, it could only send out a signal. That’s all.
SC: Ah.
SS: And anyway, with the [unclear] crane with the big jib, we got to, we managed to get it out into the yard and the wing, unless you’ve got the correct lifting tackle it balanced, but if there’s some knocked off the end, it unbalanced it. Well, as we lifted this wing, the flaps lowered and we was knee deep in eggs. These fowls had got inside the flaps laying their eggs, they’d not gone under the hedge, and it was caps and what’s the name, jackets at the ready. I think we lived on eggs for a month after that. But you see that, that was one of the lighter sides and one of the dead sides. Went to a place just outside Cambridge called Bourn, Bourn, that was a PFF station, Pathfinder unit, Mosquitoes, and they called us out to this one. They said, ‘It’s crashed in a field adjacent to the airfield’. So, we buggered off there, on the way up there, we gazed at the side of the road and there was a Catalina. Now a Catalina, in anybody’s language, is a flying boat.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Well I don’t know what had had happened to this thing, but it was perched up on the grass there, on a bit of a hill, so of course we had to stop and have a look at it, see what was happening. And then we went on to Bourn and went into this field, and there was two big gouges right up the field, right up the field, like two big [unclear], and as you walked up —one engine, half a wing, another engine, well, bits practically until we got to the end, and there was the cockpit and there was the cockpit floor. No canopy. The control column. That was it. You wouldn’t stand a dog’s chance in that. No way. And of course, partial amount of balsawood, the Mosquito. All the bomb bay — it was balsa planks. Ideal if you were an aero modeller, beautiful, but the rest were plywood, you see, and spruce, and we thought, right. Well we started work and looked down the field, and this couple, one holding on to the other’s shoulders come crawling up and jeez, that was the crew, that was the crew, and they’d belly flopped it and ran it. And the reason the navigator had jiggered his ankle - couldn’t get out what was left of the cockpit fast enough and he’d jiggered his ankle up. But —
SC: But they’d survived.
SS: That was them, that was them. Oh dear. You know, some, some were lucky, some were not. We went, we were called out to Tempsford. Now Tempsford is near Duxford, and it was a squadron for special duties, dropping spies and arms to the, you know, the Maquis and whatnot. They had numerous kind of aircraft. They’d Hudsons, Stirlings, they operated Halifaxes and — a real special job. Nobody said anything about Tempsford. And one of their aircraft had crashed. The tail had broke off and the tail, the fin and the rudder — where the entrance door was, looked as if the ring of rivets around there had sheared off, so the tail and the turret had fallen into a school playground.
SC: Oh gosh.
SS: With the, of course, the rear gunner was still in it, and then the other thing was a right mess, it was a right mess, and it crashed into somebody’s garden and the family that lived there, they’d lost their son over Germany a couple of weeks before, so they, they got it on their doorstep. But that were, some, but I want to finish up on a lighter note, a lighter note. New Year’s Day. I can remember it, the day before New Year’s Day 1944/45, we were sitting and it was cold, and it had snowed, the weather was a bit naughty, and they came in. We were squatting around the stove and they said, ‘There’s a Mitchell at Swanton Morley they want stripped for spares’. Lovely. So off we go, pile all the stuff in the wagon, off to Swanton Morley. Not a long run from Newmarket and we gets there, signed in at the station. We’ve come for so and so — that’s the number of the aircraft. It’s over there. Anyway, we gets over there and it’s on the airfield, and this thing — it glinted. It was sun, it was bright snow, piled high on either side and this aircraft glinting in the sun. You needed sunglasses to get near it. Is it? Is it? That’s the number.
SC: Yeah.
SS: That’s the number. ‘Right lads. Axes out, shear the brake line’. Out of the blue, this little jeep come howling around the peri track at four thousand mile an hour, like this. ‘Whoa. Whoa’, and this officer got out. He said, ‘This aircraft is flying on operations in thirty minutes time’, and our sergeant looked at him. He said, ‘This aircraft will never fly again’ [laughs]. So, they’d got the wrong number. Their fault, not ours.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And they said, our sergeant said, ‘Well where’s ours then?’ He said, ‘Well down this slope, in to the hangar’, and in the early days, the Americans used to paint their aircraft olive green, and this one had got a 75 millimetre canon stuffed up the nose and the big rack to put the shells in, because they used to go ship busting from there, used to fly low level and these 75 mill — the shell would go straight through a ship.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And that was its job. And there it was, all forlorn, battle weary, like this. And, well, we had to get this thing off the airfield, down this slope, into the hangar. Well, there was about three foot of snow on either side and the slope down was like a ski run.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Just like [unclear] like this, ice, so, we thought how are we going to do this. Well of course the brakes had gone, we’d had to chop the brake lines, so, how are we going to do? Well, it was a three wheeler, no steering job. Well there was a hole through the wheel, I thought, well if we get a crowbar and stick through that hole, we should be able to steer it and get the party truck with two ropes around, and they said, ‘We’ll do it that way’. We tried towing it down first and that didn’t work very well, so they said, right, we’ll put the truck behind and we’ll go slowly and let it go, and it didn’t work, and I was on the front, on the crowbar and I thought, and I looked and this wheel, and we’d lost all control and it just swung around and lodged itself on the top of the snowdrift. But I mean it was a laugh that was, a sheer laugh, but I’ll never forget that officer’s face when he said, ‘It’ll never fly again’. And well that was, and then the war came to pretty near the end and they said, ‘Right. What we’re going to do— we’re going up to Brize Norton. All the German aircraft are up there that we captured — and they’re going to take them down to Hyde Park, London. There’s also a Lancaster at Kemble near Gloucester and this Lancaster has got to be stripped down. You use the low loaders and you’re going to take it to Hyde Park and assemble it. Take it from Hyde park to Chelmsford. Colchester’. Army, a hundred percent Army. ‘And put it up in a kid’s playground and then you’re going to take it to Chelmsford’. This is to show the public —
SC: Yeah.
SS: What did the damage. Now, the aircraft were complete, what they were at Kemble, I’ve got a picture. They lined up, they’d flown from Manchester. Built, built on contract, finished off, short hop to Kemble.
SC: Yeah.
SS: For scrap.
SC: Yeah.
SS: All that much money. So, they selected this aircraft, I’ve got a picture of it there, and took it down to Hyde Park, and we stayed at the Grand Central Hotel. It was a transit camp, bare boards, four steel beds and three biscuits and a blanket. That was it. And we put this aircraft up along with the Messerschmitt 109. I’ve actually sat in a Heinkel 163 rocket plane.
SC: Gosh.
SS: The Arado. Tell my lads, I tell my lads and, ‘You were a lucky bugger you are’, and I said, ‘Well you were just there at the time’.
SC: Yeah
SS: And we were assembling this Lancaster, and this chap came up and he said, ‘Are you alright lads?’ We said, ‘Yes’, and he said, ‘What do you do for entertainment?’ ‘Course, RAF weren’t paid, ground crew, they weren’t paid. I mean two pound , what was it? Two pound a fortnight, you know, you couldn’t make headway with that and he said, he said, ‘Would you — would you care for two tickets?’ He said, ‘The Marble Arch Pavilion’, he said, ‘Showing Henry V. The premier of Henry V’. He said, ‘Would you like to go along this afternoon. Free ice cream when you got there’, and that was nice.
SC: That’s —
SS: He just came and said, ‘Would you like to go?’
SC: Yeah.
SS: So we saw Henry V.
SC: Wow.
SS: And that — that was smashing. Now, we took it to Colchester, Army, and we had our meals at the Army barracks. We were the only, they left two of us behind to look, and of course, being keen on aircraft, we showed hundreds of visitors through, you know. Letting them, letting the kids sit in the gun turrets and explained everything to them, and we used to go for meals and the cooks used to sit, you know, in the morning.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Used to go for breakfast, and we had these great big trays of bacon that had been soaking for about an hour, you know. ‘Help yourself lads’. Oh, it was Shangri La that was.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Shangri La. And then we took it to — from Colchester, this kiddies playground. It had got about a twelve foot fence all the way around, and this little old lady came up, she said, ‘He must have been a very clever pilot’. We said, ‘Well, why’s that?’ ‘To land it in here’. We were just putting it together, and then we went to Chelmsford and we were putting it up on some waste ground outside a pub. Ideal. Ideal. We’d just got it there a couple of days and this low loader pulled in from Newmarket, he said, ‘What’s your last three’. I said, ‘545’. ‘Right’, he said, ‘They want you back at Newmarket. You’ve been posted’. Oh very nice indeed. So, I went back and give me leave, and I went to Heaton Park, Manchester. Cold again, freezing, January. December this one, it was freezing. Everywhere was froze up, there was no water, this was on the camp, no water, and we lived in Nissen huts. There was no thermal, nothing, just got a, just got a stove in the middle with a pipe up and we couldn’t burn coal because there was no coal to burn. The coal was outside behind a barbed wire fence and we were guarding it, guarding the coal, couldn’t use it. To stop the civilians from pinching it. And came home on leave and went back again and we were posted Medlock, the Medlock route to Egypt, Medlock. That means across France by locomotive.
SC: Ah.
SS: Yes, so, 4 o’clock in the morning, we caught a train from Manchester down to Newhaven, we spent the night at Newhaven. We caught the tide the next morning, early tide, on the Empire Daffodil which was a paddle steamer which had taken part in the Dunkirk evacuation.
SC: Wow.
SS: Across to Dunkirk — Dieppe. Dieppe had had a rough time and we went to this transit camp that had got duck boards over the mud to stop you from dropping off and disappearing. Got these French ladies with the fur coats and whatnot dishing out the food, another bloke giving you French currency and you were going across France in thirty six hours from Dieppe, from Dieppe via Paris. On the outskirts, French rolling stock. The RAF had used it as a target for nearly four years.
SC: Yeah.
SS: There was holes in it. I think it was air conditioned, they call it air conditioning. Steam engine locomotive and we went from Dieppe, Bram, Neuvy-Pailloux, Limoges, and the scenery. I mean it was early morning, it was January, early morning, beautiful, and I remember there was no corridor on the train, no corridor. They were all departments, eight bods in a compartment, wooden seats, and the only place to sleep — you know the racks you used to have with the nets.
SC: Oh yeah. I know. Yeah.
SS: We took it in turns to have a kip in there, couldn’t sleep on wooden seats. And they said, ‘You’ll have a hot meal at Bram’. Oh, we thought, well so, we got off. I think we had a jam buttie. Got back on the train, didn’t get no hot meal, unless well, how are they going to do it or are they going to go along the roof and tip it through the top. Never got a hot meal. Landed at Toulon. Southern France. Thirty six hours it took, right the way through France, and the first thing we saw in the harbour was the French pride — The Richelieu battleship with the two guns poked out the water. Scuttled.
SC: Gosh.
SS: That was it. Two ladies in bikinis, ‘cause it was on the Riviera, you see. Two ladies from the Salvation Army with buns and a cuppa. Salvation Army, I always give to them, they’re the — anywhere — they’re there. Then we thought — right, a bit of a rest now. No, ‘Your ship is out there.’ The SS Orbita, the SS Orbita, so, we went across there and they give you a ticket. You got your kit bag and all your belongings and you started going down and down and down. EC two deck. EC two deck. Where’s that? Two decks lower than the rats [laughs]. Three days across to, across to Portshead through Corsica, Sardinia and then through the straits between Sicily and Italy. The Palermo. Well the Luftwaffe had bombed the hell out of us from that base.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Down to the happy land of egg white. Egypt.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Transit camp for fourteen days at Kasfareet. We travelled from Portshead down to Kasfareet on the Canal Zone by Egyptian State Railway with wooden shutters, no glass, wooden shutters, and we said, ‘Well, what have you got wooden shutters for?’ Well, you’ll see. Well the first native village we passed we were bombarded with brick ends stands. They didn’t like us then you know.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Welcome back filthy British and we stayed at the transit camp at Kasfareet and then back up to Portshead, and caught the SS Cape Town Castle. Oh luxury, luxury. They had a band on board. They’d got all these blokes going back to India, they’d been to Blighty on leave and they were going back. All brown, all nut brown. There was us, Khaki drill. Just left you two inches white to get a tan. Red eagles. And we got on there. And on the Orbita we’d had hammocks, forty four to a mess deck and they were that close, when you turned over everybody like sardines. Like that.
SC: Yeah.
SS: The trouble was if you didn’t know how to tie a knot during the night, many a crash where the bloody hammock had collapsed and bods was on the floor. This was lowered down, you know, lowered down. Very nice, but we was only on it for three days down the Red Sea and I think they must have taken wind that, ‘Where are you going lad?’ ‘Aden’. They took great pity on us, great pity, and we landed at Aden and it was about a hundred, over a hundred degrees. The humidity, shocking, and we all piled there on the quayside with our bags and it was amazing. The water. They used to bring fresh water up you know, and these Arabs would sell you anything.
SC: Yeah.
SS: They would sell you anything, and one came up and they also have a good shufty around, to see if anybody of any importance, ‘Would you like to buy a diamond?’ And they’d bring this diamond out. You’ve never seen anything like it, stolen from Farouk’s palace last night. And you’d say, ‘Does it cut glass?’ and it had a porthole, it had a porthole [unclear], It hadn’t cut anything like this, but they’d sell you anything. The finest, the finest salesmen in the world, Arabs. We got on the quayside, boiling, sweltering, this chap came out, a warrant officer. Oh dear, he looked as if he’d just fell out of a [unclear] window. The creases in his trousers, beautiful. Nut brown, bright blue eyes. Been in Aden about two years. Dark, he was mahogany, got desert boots on. They weren’t issued, you know, they weren’t, desert boots were never issued but I think you could wear, if you were officers, you could wear them. He said, ‘Right, chaps. You’re now in Aden. British protectorate of the colony’, he said, ‘And as you know. Ladies.’ He said, ‘Well Khormaksar’, he said, ‘Is the RAF’s camp’, he said, ‘Just outside — a couple of miles’, he said, ‘There’s a native village and’, he said, ‘And there are girls in there’, he said, ‘Well, it’s completely out of bounds’. He said, ‘That place has been shut since Lady Astor, Lady Astor’s daughter had problems with somebody and she shut it’. Oh. He said , ‘And in any case’, he said, ‘The girls here’, he says, ‘They’ve all got disease’, he said, ‘There’s eighty percent, eighty percent got gonorrhoea’. Oh. He said, ‘And there’s fifteen percent got syphilis’. The lad’s said five percent, that’s five percent, and he said, ‘The other five percent have got both’, [laughs] so that was it.
SC: Yeah.
SS: That was it as regards and if you wanted a monk’s existence that was, that was the place but from there we settled in.
[Phone ringing]
SS: There’s your phone.
SC: Oh sorry. Let me just turn that off.
[Recording paused]
SC: Yeah, that’s going again.
SS: Oh yes. After a week settling in, now, Aden had got barrack blocks, beautiful, lemon tiles [unclear]. That was the air conditioning and they said, ‘Right. You’ll be attached to the communication flight’. I thought very jolly that. They’d got Wellingtons, they’d been converted from bombers into passenger carrying aircraft, that’s a, that’s a tale that is, and we’ve also got two Albacore’s with the wings. Airborne. I think the Navy dropped them off because they didn’t want them, they stand very high, and so we reported, reported to the communication flight. He said, ‘Right. Rigger’. Well the Wellington is a rigger’s nightmare because it’s covered in fabric, and fabric in a hot climate comes off regularly, regularly, and we’d got six Wellingtons and another one was the AOCs aircraft, Air Officer Commanding. Very posh. MF455 and mine was HC968. Well, I think the lads that we took over from had been there two years, and they actually had a march in Aden. Never been done before in the Air Force. It wasn’t a riot, it was a march past the governor’s office because they’d been there two years. Now, two years in a climate like that is a bit naughty.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Used to lie on the bed staring into space, they’d got the ten mile stare. You know, like this. You could tell how long they’d been there the way they looked. Of course, they thought the world of us, you know, where we could go down and take them and they took us down and just gave us a quick look around. ‘Right. It’s yours’, and they said, ‘Well, yeah’, they said, ‘But it’s your aeroplane. You’ll look after that. Where that goes you go’. I said, ‘Yeah well’, I said, ‘I’m not aircrew actually’. ‘Well if you look in your paperwork, you agree to sign on any of His Majesty’s aircraft or boat’. So they’d got you by the short and curlies you see, and that was it. So, they said, ‘Right. Well, yours is going pilot familiarisation. There’s a warrant officer coming up in charge of it, Pilot Officer Parrott. He’s instructor and you’ll go up and get a bit of familiarisation what it’s like’. So, right, got there, got the KD on, sitting there. I thought, sniff, sniff, sniff — smell of smoke. That’s funny. I looked out and pft, pft, pft, — the propeller had feathered. I thought, oh it looks like we’ve got a fire in the engine. Well that would be the first flight and the last flight then because when these things hit, you’ve got a forty gallon tank, a hundred octane tank, above the nacelle, which they start on and switch off and go on to mains and they land on them. And if a Wimpy touches that like, that they erupt straight over. So then the cockpit filled with smoke, I thought, ‘Deary me’. We’d got parachutes on but I didn’t want to use them. And this Pilot Parrott, he got the warrant officer out of the seat who was flying it and flew an asymmetric — made a perfect landing, perfect, on one engine. So that’s a good start, I thought, that’s a good start. And then I got quite, we went all over the place. Different flights. Went u/s mainly but the trouble was where we went to it was an RAF station. You got [unclear] in East Africa, down to Mogadishu, Nairobi, Djibouti, REAN, Solala, Misera, Eritrea and we used to go u/s a lot. Of course, the aircraft were old, you see, so you had to look after them and all these RAF stations, they called them stations, it was just like an airstrip with an officer and six bods showing the flag of the Union Jack.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Showing the flag. And they’d all got well stocked with beer, and for us it was a night stop. For them it was a bit of company, so all the aircrew and ground crew we all got absolutely —
SC: Yeah.
SS: We’d got to get up next morning. Well, the Wellington isn’t pressurised, you can open the windows in flight, so, the pilot said, ‘We’ll be alright because if you lead me up the ladder and put my hands on the column and when we get to — ’ and we never flew over six thousand feet — got no oxygen. Yeah. ‘We’ll get up there and open the windows and a bit of fresh air around. Soon blow away’. Now these things, they’d got eighteen passenger seats in, eighteen passengers seats, and the one on car seats, car seat, whicker seats, any seat, screwed into the floor. It was a plywood floor. Screwed into the floor. Every passenger had got a Mae West and a parachute, they’d have never got out that door, they’d never have got out that door. Never in a million years. And they didn’t tell them that, we didn’t think about that. The dinghy in the back — they’d taken the turret out, left the doors on and there was a ten man dinghy in there. Well if you count six crew and eighteen passengers, that don’t go into a ten man dinghy. But you didn’t —
SC: Yeah.
SS: And we used to fly across the shark infested Indian ocean, you know, it was all by the board. But I didn’t like flying but I never got accustomed. Never got paid, you know.
SC: No.
SS: I think the RAF owe me. If it was a shilling a day, they owe me a bit of money.
SC: Yeah.
SS: But I never enquired into it but we — and we did a year there, did a year there. I started cycling there. I formed the — the Cycling Club was already there but it was a bit of a shed, so the word in the RAF is scrounging stuff. Very good at scrounging and we built an old, an English replica bar with a black and white ceiling and built the bar, and the seats went round and got a, we got an arrangement with the NAAFI manager to get stuff a bit cheaper. So, whisky was twelve and six a bottle, gin was eight and six a bottle, and all the beer was Canadian. Dows. And we acquired a big fridge, an American fridge. It was broke but we’d also got an arrangement with the chiefy in the cookhouse for the ice.
SC: Yeah.
SS: So we kept it and we had our own bar, and unfortunately, well, fortunately the prices was much cheaper than the officer’s mess. Well, we had, the cycling, we had eight bicycles and thirty eight members which means periodically you got a ride out.
SC: Yeah.
SS: But a large amount of officers joined us because the drinks were only half the price of what they were paying in the mess, until groupie cottoned on to it. Of course, Friday night is dressing night, you know, and they’d hardly got anybody in the mess. But, yeah, I got a certificate of service which, I’d never seen one before. I’ve asked my lad. He said, ‘No. Not a certificate’, signed by the Air Commanding Officer Middle East thanking me for my devotion to duty. But on one occasion we were flying to Djibouti with six Army blokes on board and Djibouti was a French place just across the sea there, and just sitting back enjoying the flip there and bang. A bit ominous. And on the Wellington, you’ve got an astrodome like that, which you can stand on the lid like that and have a look around, and looked up and I this chap’s head and shoulder through the front cockpit. I thought, ‘Oh, dear that’s rather strange’, and the hatch, the hatch had blown open at the front.
SC: Right.
SS: You can’t land a Wimpy without a hatch because as soon as you put the nose down, the airflow fills the aircraft and won’t balance. So this chap was mucking about, so it was my job to close the hatches, but it was that hot in Aden, we left them open to let a bit of air, cool air in otherwise —
SC: Yeah.
SS: You burned yourself, and it’s the pilot’s job to lock it. Well I hadn’t closed them and he hadn’t locked it so they were open like that, and one closes like that, the other closes like that. Lip there and then a handle. Well he wasn’t doing very well — this second dicky. I said, ‘I’ll have a go’. So I wrapped the parachute harness behind me, I said, ‘You hold on to this because if I get blown out I want someone at the end of it’, and I climbed up there, and after about three attempts, you get this shut, and when it come to do that, you trap your fingers, ‘cause you’ve got to get them on the [unclear]. They blew open a couple of times and all the rivets was coming out. I thought, if they come off, that’s it. But I managed to close them, locked it and got all black nails, you know, getting them trapped. But as I say just, little glimpse. Flying down to Nairobi, made a very bad landing at Mogadishu, ‘cause Mogadishu, you might have heard of that on the news. Mogadishu. As you’re flying, there’s only one single runway because the Italians captured it when they captured East Africa and it was one of the main Italian airbases. Regia Aeronautica. And it had got two Minarets on one end. This side was sea, and here was the edge of the cliffs.
SC: Gosh.
SS: So, you’d only got one chance. If it was a crosswind, well it was a bit dickie but we’d got full of passengers. The brigadier was taking the family and the kids down to Nairobi, where it was a bit cooler, and we came in we got this crosswind. So Mr Parrott, our saviour on the first trip, was flying it with a Flight Lieutenant Mac Williams, an excellent pilot. But Mr Parrott was flying it and we came in and got it slightly wrong. Really it was a controlled crash, and when you hear women and kids screaming in the back end there and we came in and they had to swing it around like that and try and get it like that. It didn’t happen like that. We landed on one wheel and then we went down a bit more and a bit more. Well after about the sixth time, you lose airspeed and it’s a complete — come to a shuddering halt. Well, I don’t think, I don’t think the passengers were very happy about it but there again —
SC: Yeah.
SS: They’re not flying it. Mr Mac Williams took Mr Parrott around the back end of the machine and said. ‘You’ll never land another, not with me mate. Where did you do your flying?’ [unclear]. I was doing my checks and the elevator, the operator, the elevator spar which operates the elevator — it’s controlled by a series of little wheels which are made out of cast iron. Three wheels. The bar’s there and the three wheels accuate it and you couldn’t put oil on. We used to put [pause] oh you used to put it on bike chains as well, like black.
SC: Graphite
SS: Graphite.
SC: Yeah.
SS: That’s the stuff. The problem was, you see, Khormaksar and all these airfields, they were sand and salt, they weren’t, they weren’t proper concrete, so when you, when you opened up the throttles up, you opened the throttles, you held your stick back which brought the elevators up, which caught the dust.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Which dropped it down into the rollers, which wore flat you see. Well you could adjust these rollers, you used to unscrew and just ratchet it around a little bit, but there comes a point when you can’t adjust any more, and I was doing my checks, and I said to Mac, I said, ‘We’ve got a problem here Mac’. He said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘Well you should only have a maximum — at maximum a sixty fourth of an inch plate. At maximum’. I said, ‘We’ve got a little bit more than that’. He said, ‘How much more?’ He said, ‘Well;. ‘What do you think?’ I said, ‘Well there’s no accommodation here for these women and kids and whatnot’, and I said, ‘I’ll adjust as best I can’, I said, ‘But that’s it. I’ll sign for it if you’ll fly it’. So it was a — what’s the name? A Catch 22. So, anyway I adjusted them and got them all back on again next morning. On the way down to Nairobi, Mount Kenya with the snow on the top, we were there with our shorts on and bloody khaki drill and we couldn’t get up any higher. Six thousand, six thousand foot, ‘cause we’d got no oxygen you see. I think Mount Kenya is about eleven thousand or something like that and — vibration back end. It was down there. This torsionbar goes straight through with the elevators on. That was bouncing up and down, so I went to the control column, the control column was going like this. I said, I didn’t say, ‘Houston we’ve got a problem’, because there was no Houston then, I said, ‘I think we’ve got a little problem down the back end. I know what I’ll do, I’ll sit, I’ll sit on the spar’. So, the elsan bucket, it hadn’t got a proper toilet, it was just a chemical hole and a little plywood door. That was to stop prying eyes you see. So there was the elsan, there was the bar, so, I sat on the bar like this [laughs], and Mac rings Nairobi. Fire engines and ambulances and the station warrant officer. Engineering. So, we comes in and made a nice approach, nice landing, and as we come in, saw this line of ambulances and line of fire engines, waiting for it. Oh dear. I stayed behind locking things and whatnot and I heard this voice, ‘Where’s the rigger?’ Poked my head around the door, Station warrant officer. He said, ‘Did you know this aircraft was like this?’ I said, ‘Have you asked the pilot yet? Have you spoken to him?’ I said, ‘It was a [pause] it was a choice between stopping there and waiting for spares, which might have taken days or taking the risk’. ‘Oh’, he said, and they wheeled it straight into the hangar. Didn’t see it for seven days. They had to use their own lathes and whatnot to turn because they’d got not spares and they were cast iron, they weren’t, they weren’t steel. And we had a little trip, Nairobi, If you hadn’t got a lot of money — very upper class, and then came the magic day. It’s fit so they rolls it out. Air test. And on a RAF ‘drome, you had what you called a duty crew. They serviced any aircraft that comes in, it was their job to service it and get it out and they were all sitting around. And he asked, ‘Would you like a pleasure flip?’ Pleasure flip. Well, I think we had six of them on board, plenty of room, and just outside Nairobi, there’s this game park. I’ve since been talking to a lady, a coloured lady from Nairobi and I was telling her about this episode. I said, ‘’We flew across to Ngong Hills’. She said, ‘No. Not Ngong’. She said, ‘No N. No N. Pronounced Ngong but no N’. Like magic K in [unclear] isn’t it?
SC: Yeah.
SS: And down on the deck, chasing the game and then, looking out, the ground staff had re-fuelled it and the cover which covers the petrol tank, it’s got a metal clip on it. Well they forgot to do that, and this flap is on line with the lift line on the wing, and it was coming up. Lifting and spoiling the airflow, so we had to land just a little bit quicker than normal, you know, to stop the wing from stalling then, you know.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And little incidences. And then the last flip of all before we came away. We’d been to Mogadishu to pick this spare aircraft up, we’d repaired it and we were coming back in formation and we were coming back about 4 o’clock in the afternoon and selected undercarriage down. No lights, no lights — you don’t know whether it’s down or not. Now if it’s, if it’s not down, you’ve got problems, if one wheel’s down, you’ve got problems still, but we’d got thirteen on board and we’d got — thirteen on board — we’d got six parachutes. I got one ‘cause I was part of the and oh, we’d got a problem so he rung up, rung up the tower and said, ‘We’ve got no undercarriage lights. Warning lights’. Oh. Groupie, got groupie down, Group Captain Snaith. He said, ‘Right’, he said, told the skipper, ‘Fly past slowly as if you’re landing and drop your flaps. Drop your wheels and I’ll have a shufty if they’re down’. So, he throttled right back, put the flap down, dropped the wheels. Well we thought they were alright [unclear], and he said, ‘Well everything seems to be ok’, he said, ‘But of course, I’m in the control tower and you’re out there’. So, he said, ‘Well try flying over, [unclear] and get up to six thousand’, he said, ‘And come down in a steep dive and pull up sharply and you’ll lock them down’.
SC: Lock.
SS: Very nice. And anyway, we did that, but the chap that had done the daily inspection and should have checked all this, he was on board.
SC: Right.
SS: So, we said, ‘What are you going to do about this?’ He said it might be a ball cock, it could be. Anyway, we come in, perfect landing, so that was the last trip. So the first trip in it and the last trip — they were a bit naughty, but just before we came away Number 8 Squadron was stationed permanently at Aden. Khormaksar. Don’t know why. Since 1926 they were stationed there permanently, something had gone wrong. They put up a black I think and they were there permanently. Now, they’d got Mosquitoes, silver, lovely jobs. Did a lot of reconnaissance work and one officer, the boat was in, he’d got his boat packed, he’d got his bag packed and everything and there was a young lad that used to drive, I think only about nineteen, used to drive the towing tractor. Virgil his name was. And there was a lot, there was more killed on last flights, you know, ‘We’ll just go up and have go’, more killed. Cobber Kain in, during the French — he killed himself in a Hurricane, inverted flight, and he said, ‘I’m just taking the kite up for a trip’, but this lad hadn’t flown before. So he packed him in, puts him in, put a ‘chute on him and whatnot and took off, and they’d got a bombing range just outside the airfield, and they did a couple of, a couple of runs. Third run, big bang, cloud of smoke. Gone in. That was about 10 o’clock in the morning. We buried him at two.
SC: Gosh.
SS: ‘Cause you had to do out there, it was that hot. So that was I mean ready for boating and everything but there was more on these last, last trips. But, yeah, and then we came home, and my group number had come up. Fifty eight, my demob number. And I should have stopped in. Oh I wish now I would have stopped in and made a career of it, but came the shiny jobs and the buttons and the painting of the white lines, and the white belts and [unclear], I didn’t care for that. And the Air Force had really — well it had to do because it was no longer a fighting force. And back to Heaton Park.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Not Heaton Park, just outside, just outside Preston, Warton. Kitted out, beautiful suit, pinstripe suit, trilby, mac. I’ve never been so well dressed in my life. There were lads, the spivs outside on the station giving you five pounds. Shoes, socks, suit, shirt, underwear. Giving the lads five quid to take it off your hands, I mean five quid in them days.
SC: A lot of money.
SS: Was more than a week’s wage wasn’t it? But then I did that and I went back to Celanese, finished my apprenticeship off and on to Royces. Ten years building jet engines. Chilwell — working on Rolls Royce engines for the Comet tank, went on engine test and then back to Royce’s. I went to Royce’s then building the oil engine. I went on experimental fuel injection which was a lovely job ‘till they bought Sentinals at Shrewsbury and I was down to go and then they didn’t take me. They said, ‘We’ll give you a good job on Aero’. I thought, beautiful, and I went from fuel injection pump that big to a Comet engine. An Avon.
SC: Wow.
SS: One for the Lightning and went right through Avon, Nene, the one that the Viscount used. The nice little one, just forget the name of that. On to the RCO 42, Conway. The Spey and the dreaded Tyne, the dreaded Tyne. Then the money wasn’t — I’d got a family of three then and the money wasn’t awfully good.
SC: Right.
SS: Not for the job you were doing, and only two of you built an engine in them days.
SC: Gosh.
SS: None of these you can walk around and have a look, none of that, and of course, they were all built by hand. And I went back. My dad said Celanese — or Courtaulds — they’re were building a new nylon plant and they want fitters desperately, so there weren’t much doing at the time and engine build at Royce’s you was built, the more you did you built on a bonus. Well if there’s no parts to put on the engine.
SC: Yeah.
SS: So I asked the foreman. I said, ‘There’s not much doing here. I’m going to slip up to Courtaulds’, which I did and I went up. I was thirty eight at the time and I went in, and the engineer was a racing cyclist from the Derby Mercury. He said, ‘What are you doing here?’ I said, ‘I’ve come for a job’. So, he said, ‘I desperately need fitters’. He said, ‘Can you work overtime?’ I said, ‘I can do as much as you want’. He said, ‘Right. What can I —?’ I said, ‘I’ll hand my notice in when I get back’, I said ‘And then I’ll join you on Monday’. ‘Right’. So, I went back, handed my notice in and they brought it back. They said, ‘You can’t leave’. I said, ‘You’re joking’. He said, ‘No. You can’t leave’, he said, ‘Oh no’, he said, ‘You’re contracted here’. I said, ‘I don’t think so’. So, I had to go and see the superintendent, so he said, ‘Well, what’s the exact trouble’. I said, ‘Well put it like this Walter’. Walter Hampton this is. I said, ‘Have you got your own house?’ He said, ‘Yes’. I said, ‘Have you got a car?’ He said, ‘Yes’. I said, ‘Do you go on foreign holidays?’ ‘Yes’. I said, ‘Well I don’t. I’ve got none of them things’. I said, ‘I’m on rather what you call a job that is very valuable’. I mean, jet engines. You couldn’t make any mistakes on them you know, and he said, ‘Well you’re getting seven and six an hour’. I said, ‘Of course I am’, I said, ‘An inspector’s getting twelve and six an hour and he’s only looking at it. I’m doing the work, he’s looking at it. And if it’s wrong, it’s me, not him’. I said, I said, ‘He’s a wicket keeper’, I said, ‘And he lets stuff through and all’. And he kicked me out, and then a couple of days later, this chap arrived from main works with his bowler hat and his briefcase. He said, ‘Right. You want to leave’. I said, ‘Yeah’. ‘Right’,‘ he said, ‘Six weeks. You’ll work six weeks’ notice’. I thought oh dearie me. Jumped on the little Bantam, went flying back up to Courtaulds. I said, and I saw Ted, he said, ‘You’re having a spot of trouble’. I said, ‘Yes’, I said, ‘Yes, I am’. He said, ‘Well, right, how long have you got to work?’ I said, ‘Six weeks’. ‘Right’, he said, ‘May the 8th which is Whit Monday’, he said, ‘You start on May the 8th, Whit Monday’, he said, ‘You’ll get treble time and a day off in lieu’. He said, ‘How much overtime can you work?’ He said, ‘You can work till 10 o’clock every night if you want’, he said, ‘We want all these machines in. You know. Installing’. And he said every Saturday and Sunday’, [laughs] every Saturday and Sunday. Well, in a month, I got my first car. The Ford Pop, sixty five pound, ten pound down and the rest when you get it from [unclear] garage.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And as I said I worked there and I finished. I worked a little bit extra because I didn’t want to leave. I didn’t feel like leaving. And I did a lot of experimental work and a lot of — made, made Courtaulds a lot of money, because on this nylon, you had to do what you could with it. Twist it, stretch it and all that caper, and it was purely development work and I enjoyed that. And then they shut, they shut the plant down, seven hundred and eighty, bang, just like that. So, I stayed on a little bit to sort the machines out and sell stuff and they promised me a job. So, when, when we finished finally, I went up to the office, the labour bloke said, ‘Right’, he said, ‘I’ve got all your redundancy papers ready’. I said, ‘Well you know what you can do with them’, I said, ‘They promised us a job’. ‘Oh’. he said, ‘Well’, he said, ‘Things have altered’, he said, ‘The two chaps that you were going to replace’, he said,’ they have gone up to the worst plant on the firm. CA Department, where all the chemicals is and acids’, he said, ‘They left spinning’, he said, ‘Now if you contact them and ask them if they want to go back to spinning, or do they want to stop on CA. They’ll stop on CA because it’s thruppence an hour more, because it’s dirt money. Danger money more or less’, and he said, ‘And you’ll go back on to spinning’. I said, ‘That’s alright’, I said, ‘I were building, when I came back out the RAF, I was building spinning machines on that where you’re going to send me. So, roll back the years’.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And he said, ‘Can you fit a spinning pump?’ I said, ‘Well put it this way, we put these machines in in 1947, so I think I’m a bit qualified’. And then I did — I worked longer there and I went to the twenty five years dinner, and I sat next to one of the directors. He said, ‘How old are you?’ I said. He said, ‘You never are’. I said, ‘I am’. He says, ‘Well do you feel like, do you feel like packing up?’ I said, ‘No, I don’t feel like packing up’. He said, ‘Do you think you could still —?’ ‘Of course I could still do the job’. He said, ‘Well you needn’t leave, you know’. Well, when I went back, my foreman was doing his nut. ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do without you’. So, when I went back, they were queuing up for my job, the lads, so, I went back and I said, ‘Well I’m staying’. ‘You can’t do that. You can’t stay’. I said, ‘Well go and ask Mr White, the director, I’ve had a word with him’. And I saw the engineer, he said, ‘Right’, he said, ‘It’s like this’, he said, ‘Things aren’t very well at the moment, things aren’t doing well’, he said, ‘What we’ll do is — a three monthly basis’, he said. ‘After three months, if you want to pack up, you pack up. After three months, if things run into a —?’ I said, ‘That’s fair enough, that’s fair enough’. And they give me a marvellous party coming away, they said, how many, how many, well by now the firm was, you know, they lost big. They said, ‘How many people do you know on the firm?’ I said, ‘About all of them’. He said, ‘You’re not having that lot, he said, ‘You can have a hundred’. I said, ‘That fair enough’. So the wife picked us up in a taxi, and — a marvellous meal, and the engineer, he said ‘I don’t know what to say about this lad’, he said, he said, ‘He’s had rather — he’s had rather an interesting —' so he gets like a toilet, have you seen these things. Paper that goes like that’. So, he picks it up, he said, ‘Right’, he said, ‘You started here’. I said, ‘I didn’t’, He said, I said, ‘No. I didn’t. I started at [unclear]’ ‘Oh, and then you moved on’, I said, ‘No, I didn’t move on to there’. So, he let this paper go and it went like this, and he said, ‘Well I’m not going to say anymore’, he said, ‘Because what I’m going to tell you will be wrong in any case’. But, and never once in my life, never once have I got up in the morning and said, ‘I don’t want to go today’, because work is your life really. I mean that is it, and if and the problem is if a person’s not happy in the job he’s doing, it does more damage.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Because he goes, knowing very well that he’s not going to have a very good day, and that in itself and, and it rubs off, because when he gets home from a day’s work, his wife, he makes his wife have it because — it’s not her fault.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And the kids, it’s not the kids fault.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And that’s why, when I lost, I nursed the wife for about seven years from here. So we did eighteen years up at the aero park every Sunday.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Fetching the aircraft in, because there was only moi who knew how to go about it. Hunter from Alconbury, the Lightning from Warton, a Saudi Lightning from Warton, the Canberra from Cosford. All these different places.
SC: Yeah.
SS: I thoroughly enjoyed it. I helped to build it, helped to move it across, and then of course, when Jan used to go up every Sunday, you know, make stuff. A buffet, and really get involved there. I was the vice chairman.
SC: And just, just for the recording.
SS: Yeah.
SC: That’s the aero park at East Midlands Airport.
SS: Yeah.
SC: Yes.
SS: It started in 1984.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And we’d only got one aircraft. Graham Vale’s Varsity, which is still there, and he’s still the chairman, because if he goes, the Varsity goes. But we used to run the Varsity because the Varsity is a tin Wellington.
SC: Right.
SS: It’s exactly the same as a Wellington but its metal, exactly the same. Apart from the turrets, which don’t [unclear]. And yeah. The flying club used to give us eighty quids worth of hundred octane petrol, it wouldn’t run on eighty, a hundred octane. So the old bowsers used to come round and squeeze in and we had a twenty minute run. Used to run port starboard in the cockpit. [unclear] for the public.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Run it for the public, and for us, and it would have flown, that thing. I would, it would have flown because we’d got the revs and everything on it. And yes, I did eighteen years there. British Legion. All by the side is we ran a discotheque club 1969 ‘til ’83, up at the Celanese club here. Every Sunday night, teenagers disco, we had the finest disco light display stereo in Derby. All done free. Did it all for the firm, you know because it was for the firm, and then we did ballroom dancing. Strictly tempo, sequence dancing. Then I became a — I’d always been in the British Legion at Spondon, and I became entertainments officer, and I used to do — I did the VE dance, the VJ dance. Did numerous charities for Gurkha regiments, FIPO, all these different. Every farthing went to charity, did a lot of charity work and of course, when Jannie was really poorly, we couldn’t do it anymore. And I hope I’m a Christian, I hope I’m a Christian, and I used to go to chapel and of course the last few days, I couldn’t go because she was poorly, and finally, after three trips to the hospital they’d been treating her for [pause], what’s the name — shingles, and it was aggressive leukaemia. And so, I nursed her all through that, and they had her in for two days and decided — for you, it’s the Liverpool pathway. So, you get no choice, you don’t get any choice at all. Just withdraw medication, food, liquid.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Everything. And that was nearly six years ago which was, when you’ve been married fifty eight years.
SC: Gosh
SS: Where I’m working now, I met her at the Angler’s Arms. Used to call it the Stranglers Arms. And when I was cycling, I had one or two crashes, and I remember one August had a right crash and busted my collar bone, and we used to go there to the little dances that used to be on a Friday night and that’s where I met her. It wasn’t love at first sight. No, I had my twenty four inch bottoms, yellow socks, brothel creepers, suit shoulders out here, draped shape. Looked more like a gangster when I put it on. And she was a clippy on the Derby Corporation. She’d been a nurse but she caught everything that was going and was advised to get an outdoor job. There’s nothing more outdoor than an open double decker.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And then yeah, we got three. Three. I’ve got two sons. One’s — what is he now? I’ve got a daughter fifty nine, the son is fifty seven and then the younger one is fifty this year. Numerous grandchildren, and I think to myself sheer luck, sheer luck. If I walk — I had bronchial pneumonia a couple of years ago and that knocked me for six, if I walk about fifty yards now, I’m jiggered, absolutely jiggered. Can’t get my —. Considering, I smoked for over twenty years. Seventy years, sorry. Smoked for seventy years. I started with a clay pipe and a packet of tuppeny sage with no onion, and the old pipe used to glow, the bowl used to glow red hot. And then of course, when you’re fourteen, you automatically become a man and you start on the old Park Drive Woodbine. You graduate to the full Capstan, and overseas, they used to throw them at you by the hundred, you know. They used to throw them by the hundred, but they never said anything.
SC: No. No.
SS: And I worked in blue Asbestos at Courtaulds for over thirty years.
SC: Gosh.
SS: And as I say — this dance. I tried to get in touch with them I worked with. There’s only two, the rest I worked with in engineering have gone.
SC: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: Just —
SC: Yeah.
SS: But there again — pure luck. Pure luck. And they say, ‘Oh you do look well. Oh, you do look well’, but you do.
SC: And you do.
SS: I get up in the morning sometimes, you know, and I think, no, but I used to work five days a week, sometimes six.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Looking after these, a lot of them younger myself, and I found out I could sit and talk to them.
SC: Yeah.
SS: We were on the same wavelength.
SC: Yeah.
SS: If you’re ninety, and they’re around about that age, you can talk about the old times, the bad old days and you can work your way through the wireless set, the television.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And you can have — always wind up laughing.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And I loved music. I can go, I’ve got three hundred LPs, singles. I love music. I play music like a therapy. But when we’re not playing music and you’re sitting in the lounge, and one of them suddenly starts singing and they all join in and they’re the old music hall songs that Florrie Forde used to sing and it is. I’ve worked in a lot of places, and this is the most happiest place I’ve ever worked because there’s somebody worse than you.
SC: Yeah.
SS: But the only trouble Is, you make friends with them, you sit and talk for hours and then one morning you go in, and they say [unclear] passed away in the night.
SC: Yeah.
SS: And I’ve been there getting on for five years and we’ve lost forty.
SC: Yeah.
SS: Which is about, you know, it’s about par for the course.
SC: Yeah.
SS: But I don’t grieve. I don’t grieve for them because in fact, they’re going to a better place because half of them they can’t see, they can’t walk. They can’t. And really you wouldn’t treat a dog like that.
SC: Yeah.
SS: You wouldn’t treat a dog like that.
SC: I’m going to switch this off now.
SS: Lovely.
SC: ‘Cause I think —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Stanley Shaw
Creator
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Steve Cooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-14
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AShawS160114, PShawSR1604
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Format
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01:45:54 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Stanley Shaw was born in 1926 in Derby and left school at Easter 1940 where he worked in a garage looking after fuel for the nearby camp at Spondon. He saw some soldiers who had returned from Dunkirk, who were reporting to their headquarters.
Stanley joined the Air Training Corp after hearing a broadcast from the Air Ministry asking for volunteers. He tells the stories of the other 3 who joined up with him. He was an apprentice fitter with Celanese and had to break that apprenticeship to sign up for the Royal Air Force at the age of 18.
On joining up, he helped form 1117 Squadron, before moving to Burnaston where they had Tiger Moths and Miles Magisters and then moving on to 16 AFTS Flight Training School. He also flew Whitleys, Avro Ansons and Bristol Blenheims from Ashbourne Aerodrome. He also tells of his experiences with the Vickers Wellingtons and the Avro Lancasters.
Stanley was posted to 54 Maintenance, Repair and Salvage unit at Cambridge and was tasked with salvaging aircraft that crash, no matter whose aircraft they were. He tells of his experiences in his line of work, some good and some bad.
After the war, Stanley returned to Celanese and finished his apprenticeship before moving to Royces, where he spent 10 years building jet engines, before working at Chilwell, working on the Rolls Royce engines for the Comet tank. He returned to work at Celanese until he retired.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
B-24
B-25
Catalina
final resting place
fitter airframe
ground crew
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 163
military living conditions
Mosquito
Nissen hut
Stirling
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/8821/PPattersonGE1502.2.jpg
38c2680d1699d350eecb4aed227391a1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/8821/PPattersonGE1501.2.jpg
66fba105a1d1ee2367331ee22cac69ab
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/554/8821/APattersonGE151008.1.mp3
f32cabc127e0718595b075fed6b0fc4a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Patterson, Ernie
Gilbert Ernest Patterson
G E Patterson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Patterson, GE
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-08
2019-01-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Gilbert Ernest Patterson DFM (b. 1922 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 635 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Hang on then.
EP: Can’t we just chat before you start doing that?
AM: Ok Right. Well, we can, we can, but let me just say. Just, ‘cause they need this for the recording in a minute, that my name’s Annie Moody, and I’m here on behalf of the International —
EP: Anne who?
AM: Moody.
EP: Is that what you’re —
AM: No. He’s called Gary Rushbrooke.
EP: That’s right.
GR: She wouldn’t take my name.
AM: I wouldn’t, I’d never change my name, Ernie. And I’m doing the interview for the International Bomber Command Centre, and I’m, today I’m at the house of Ernie Patterson in Darlington, and it is the 8th —
GR: Yeah.
AM: Of October 2015, and you can talk now Ernie, and what I want you to tell me, first of all, is where you were born and what your parents did, and what your background was.
[pause]
AM: See you’re not talking now, come on [laughs].
EP: I was trying to tell you I was born at —
AM: Right. Middleton St George. Tell me about that.
EP: [unclear] Road, Number 19.
AM: Right.
EP: My mum was living with her sister at the time, and she had a baby boy a month after I was born, and we were both christened at the St Lawrence’s Church which is down by Middleton One Row. Right.
AM: Right.
EP: Because — he’s died by the way, two or three years ago. That was where I was born.
AM: Right. And you were telling me that that was right near Middleton St George.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Which is now Teesside Airport, but which was a big bomber base.
EP: That was part of my working career. I helped to build which is, which was Middleton St George bomber station, and I also worked and helped to build which is now Newcastle Airport.
AM: Right.
EP: When the RAF took it over.
AM: So, you were born there. Did you have brothers and sisters?
EP: Eh?
AM: Did you have brothers and sisters?
EP: Yeah. I was one of six.
AM: Right.
EP: There’s three of us left.
AM: What did, what did your parents do?
EP: My dad was in the Boer War.
AM: Yeah.
EP: He, not the Boer War, rub that out. He was in the Battle of the Somme.
AM: First World War.
EP: And he was badly, he got badly shot up there.
AM: Right.
EP: ‘Cause I’ve been — can I jump? I left school when I was fourteen. I’ll go from there, eh?
AM: Yeah. Ok.
EP: I left school when I was fourteen, and I decided to serve my time as an apprentice joiner at fourteen, and my pay was twenty seven P a week. True that.
AM: Five and four pence.
EP: Five and ten pence.
AM: Five and ten pence.
EP: In old money.
AM: Yeah.
EP: That was then, and I was, and I was in to the deep end straightaway by putting rooves on with improvers, they were called, and when you got to twenty one in my day, you got the sack, ‘cause they had to double your pay.
AM: Right.
EP: You had to go and work for somebody else. In my working career, I’ve been a joiner all my time, which is why — and I’ve got no City and Guilds, Higher National. Nothing.
AM: So that’s what you did.
EP: Experience. I just seen it happen and I just took it all in. Mind before I built this, I built a few garages for people and that give me the incentive and this — I took it on myself. And I was working twelve hours a day some days to get. It hardly rained.
AM: Yeah. So, at fourteen —
EP: Yeah.
AM: You started off as a joiner.
EP: Apprentice joiner. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
EP: I was getting — the pay was twenty seven, you know, for forty four hours that.
AM: Blimey.
EP: That’s what it was. Twenty seven P.
AM: Did you enjoy it, Ernie?
EP: I enjoyed every work of my time of my working career.
AM: Right.
EP: And I was never out of work. I left school when I was fourteen and I worked until I was seventy eight, and I had a week off on the sick in all that time. Apart from giving the RAF four years.
AM: Four years. So why the RAF? What made you go for the RAF?
EP: I liked Brylcreem, didn’t I [laughs].
AM: What do you mean you liked Brylcreem?
EP: Well, we used to be the Brylcreem boys, weren’t we?
AM: True
EP: I used to use it, so I had to join the RAF, didn’t I?
AM: There must have been more.
EP: But what annoyed me was, I didn’t get the Defence medal because I was non-operational, such as being in the Home Guard or the Fire Service or anything. Yet I helped to build two big bomber stations. That should have counted, shouldn’t it?
AM: Right.
EP: So, you can check on that for me and get it for me. The Defence medal.
AM: Right.
EP: I was in touch with Gloucester, well you know what I mean, and this is what he came on the phone with. He said, ‘You only had two years’. Well, that was the two years when I was training in the air, how to be aircrew.
AM: Right. So, wheeling back a bit. So, when you, so you joined because you wanted to a Brylcreem boy. I’m not sure I believe that was the whole reason, but it’ll do.
EP: I had black wavy hair. I couldn’t. In the Army, you do a lot of marching don’t you? And in the Navy, I’d be seasick.
AM: Right. So, you decided to join the RAF.
EP: So, I joined the RAF. I was whipped in to the cream.
AM: You were whipped in to the cream. Where did you, where did you did you —
EP: I was deferred for a while. I was nineteen when I was called up.
AM: Right. So, what happened between eighteen and nineteen then, because I thought, weren’t —
EP: I was working in 1941, building bomber stations. Middleton St George and the satellite at Croft.
AM: Right. Tell me what you mean then. You were working there.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Working for whom?
EP: Helped to build, helped to build, working on [pause] such as Teesside there. Twelve flat rooves, you know, pitched rooves.
AM: Right.
EP: It was all shuttering, you know. We had to build —
AM: When you say you were working as a joiner? You hadn’t joined the RAF
EP: I’ve been a joiner all my life.
AM: Right. Got you.
EP: I built this place but I had no experience of brick laying. Just I’d seen them doing it.
AM: Just built it
EP: Built it.
AM: So, so from, so you started off as a joiner at fourteen.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And at eighteen you were working on the airport.
EP: 1941. When the war started in 1939 — I can take you to the pair of bungalows. I was seventeen at the time.
AM: Right.
EP: And I did all the joinery work on this bungalow for a builder who, he was working as a boss on another building firm, but he built these pair of bungalows in Darlington. Woodcrest Road. And I did everything on that, I was only seventeen then. Then when the war — that was in 1939, the day the war started. I can see it as if it was yesterday. They stopped building. You couldn’t get, you couldn’t get material to do building. They needed it for war work, didn’t they?
AM: So, what did you, so what did you do at that point?
EP: I got with a firm that was doing [pause] which is — not Middleton St George. Croft. It was a satellite of Middleton St George. I started work there as a joiner.
AM: As a joiner.
EP: It was a satellite of Middleton St George.
AM: Right.
EP: And then from there, I went to, when I got moved from there, for the same firm to Newcastle. I was lodging in Lady Park Road and it was about five shilling a week bed and breakfast at the time. Five shilling a week.
AM: All still as a joiner.
EP: I’ve never been, done anything else
AM: So, when you actually joined up with the RAF then, how old were you at that point?
EP: That was in September 1942.
AM: Right.
EP: I was nineteen, wasn’t I?
AM: You were nineteen.
EP: Work it out. Yeah.
AM: And where did you go to join up?
EP: I just got called up, didn’t I? I had to go.
AM: Right. Ah, so you got called up.
EP: You had to be registered. I had to go.
AM: But for the RAF.
EP: No, I volunteered for that.
AM: Right. So, you got —
EP: Flying was. Aircrew was voluntary.
AM: So, you got called up but you volunteered for the RAF.
EP: That’s it.
AM: Right. Ok. Got you. So, having volunteered for the RAF what happened then? What was the sequence of events?
EP: It was in the February of 1942. I can always remember. I was, I had to go to Edinburgh on an aircrew selection board.
AM: Right.
EP: And it was there they decided to make me a wireless operator. Because they do you tests and they could see that I could, they send you Morse code, and they’d send you a note or something, and they’d send you something else, and you had to say if they were both the same. That’s how they were testing you. But they found I could take Morse code in.
AM: Right.
EP: And they made me a wireless operator.
AM: Right. So where did you go?
EP: It was on my mum’s birthday. 4th of February 1942.
AM: Right.
EP: And I was accepted into the RAF then but it wasn’t until the September that I was called up, and by then, I was eighteen, nineteen or something.
AM: Right. So, so when you were called up, when did you start doing the training for the wireless operator? Where did you do that?
EP: When I was called up in the September.
AM: Right.
EP: ‘42.
AM: Still — yeah.
EP: Blackpool, wasn’t it?
AM: Was it? Blackpool.
EP: You learned the Morse code in the Winter Gardens. And they were all civilian ex-GPO bloody operators. It was Morse code then, wasn’t it? Telegrams and all that.
AM: So, what was it like then? Going, going to Blackpool.
EP: There was RAF all over. Everywhere, every, every boarding house had RAF in. You could see them at parading and that. And Woolworths, I think it was Woolworths or Marks and Spencer where they kept all your documents. We used to have to do guard duty on, on, I remember they used to say you had to learn something if you were challenged at night by the orderly officers and that, but you were protecting government property. And Burton’s was an aircraft recognition place. All these places were taken over by the RAF.
AM: Yeah.
EP: We used to do PT on the sands and we used to — where else did we go? We got [unclear], known as a pressure chamber, that happened there, but we did a route march to somewhere. Shooting ranges. You did everything in Blackpool. Then from there, I was posted to a place called Madley. This was the RAF now, Madley. I was trained to be a ground wireless op. We learned Morse code as a ground wireless operator. Then from there, I went to Yatesbury and I was trained to be an air wireless operator. Then from there, I was sent up to Evanton, up in Scotland and made an air gunner, which I was never in the turret. That was a waste of time because I was never in the turret. I was a wireless operator all the time.
AM: So, you — but your training was wireless operator, and then you were trained air gunner as well.
EP: I was a wireless operator air gunner.
AM: What was the training like at Yatesbury?
EP: Well, you flew in Proctors. Single aircraft with just a pilot and you, and you got, you got your, you had your transmitter, receiver in front of you. You had to push it back to get in, then pull it over like that., and you were experiencing air sickness and all that weren’t you? Then from Yatesbury, we get — do you want me to keep going?
AM: Yeah.
EP: Then from Yatesbury, we went to Abingdon.
AM: Yeah. You’re all over the country, criss crossing the country.
EP: Not Yatesbury. After Evanton, up in Scotland, I was a fully-fledged sergeant there. I got my brevet and then from there, I was sent to a place called Milham. Have you heard of Milham? It was an Advanced Navigator’s Flying Unit, and we flew with scrubbed navigators and wireless operators in Ansons. And from there, we were all sent to Abingdon but we all — pilots, all the —
AM: Right. So —
EP: In this big hangar.
AM: So, Abingdon is the Operational Training Unit where you crewed up.
EP: Where we crewed up.
AM: Tell me about crewing up.
EP: Well, they never said, ‘You’re flying with him’, and, ‘You’re flying with him’, you picked your own crew in there didn’t you?
AM: So how did it happen for you then? Who picked who?
EP: Well, someone just comes. I don’t know who picked me, but this I always remember, he was Jack Harold. He was a pilot and he was about a couple of years older than me at the time. What would he be? He’d be about twenty two and I was twenty, and it was just a matter of you just got together. I can’t remember how it happened, but from there, we flew down as a crew to this satellite of Abingdon, which was called Stanton Harcourt.
AM: So, who, who were the crew at that point? How many of you?
EP: There was seven of us then
AM: Were there a full seven of you?
EP: Seven of us.
AM: Right. Ok.
EP: Do you want me to give you the names?
AM: Yeah. Go on.
EP: Well, there was the pilot, that was Jack Harold which — he’s dead now. Jack Garland, the navigator. Lofty Thompson was the second navigator. Ernie Patterson, me, was the wireless operator. Snowdon was the mid-upper gunner and George Sindall was the rear gunner. And Alan Purdy was the flight engineer.
AM: Right.
EP: How about that from memory.
AM: Well done.
EP: And we trained at Acaster Malbis.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And it was there where Lady Luck was on our side for the very first time. We were sat waiting for this Whitley to come back. Is that? I think, let’s get this right first, but we were fired on the first time, we’d been flying in the daytime in this Whitley, and for some reason, we were flying in the same aircraft on the night cross-country run, and we had this crop who had an instructor pilot and an instructor wireless operator and for some reason, they changed the aircraft. The instructors wanted to fly, you know, we changed aircraft for some reason. They crashed and they were all killed. That was the first time when Lady Luck was on our side. And the second time, the second time we had that Lady — the second time, we were waiting for this Halifax to come back at Stanton Harcourt. It was doing two engine overshoots and that, and they crashed and they were all killed. Lady Luck was on our — and we were waiting for that aircraft. We were sat outside waiting for it to come back so that we could take it over, but it had engine trouble and they crashed.
AM: And this is all while you were all just doing your training.
EP: That was while we were doing — there was about nine thousand killed training.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But let me think. So, when we went on to a squadron, the pilot, you see after, we ended up at Rufforth flying Halifaxes from Whitleys. But this was Whitleys at Stanton Harcourt. But we ended up — but the next one was Rufforth near York, in the York area, and when we graduated, we’ had about forty hours on Halifaxes. We had the chance to go on to Main Force, which was 10 Group which was Melbourne or 635 Squadron, see. So, we plumped for the Pathfinder squadron.
AM: Right.
EP: And we went there for the Path. We were there a month before we did any, any op, and training all the time. And all this time we had this aircraft we were given for pre-flight training in and went to do a DI on it. Daily Inspection.
AM: Ok.
EP: And across, I did a crow flies. I walked towards the plate to it and I found this horseshoe. Threw it over me shoulder like that. I thought I’ll keep that.
AM: And you’ve still got it.
EP: It flew with me. All the flying I did from there.
AM: What was the extra training you had to do as Pathfinders then?
EP: Well, in the first place you had to do two tours. Main Force, you did one tour which was —
AM: Yeah.
EP: Well, we went on this squadron. The pilot flew with an experienced crew to give him, as second dickey, to give him extra to see what it was like before he took his own crew.
AM: Ok.
EP: So consequently, he did thirty trips. We all did twenty nine.
AM: You did twenty nine.
EP: And the pilot and the two navigators — they were posted overnight. We didn’t even get to say cheerio. But I’ve seen the pilot a couple of times since the war.
AM: So, when you got there to 635 Squadron.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Pathfinders. Can you remember your very first operation?
EP: Oh aye.
AM: Go on. Tell me about it.
EP: It was in August. We went to Stettin. You’ve heard of that haven’t you? In Poland.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And we went up. It was an eight and a half hour trip.
AM: For your very first operation.
EP: Yeah, and we lost twenty three bombers that night, I’ll always remember that. But you see with the pilot going around another crew to get experience, he done thirty trips. We had done twenty nine. But when you’re just, you’re supporting the markers.
AM: Yes.
EP: You’ve got markers on the Squadron. Certain ones. But when your brand new, you’re supporting the markers. Well, this is why, after he’d did thirty trips, him and the two navigators, well we never got off supporting those. We were supporting the markers all the time.
AM: On right.
EP: So, I got on with another crew. They’d lost their wireless operator. He was, he crashed, they crashed. That’s another story. They were on two engines coming back to this country and he ended up on one engine and heading for Woodbridge. Crash landed, and the wireless operator was killed and he’d done about eighteen trips and I’d done about the same. And I got him, I got his job.
AM: So, after about eighteen operations, you swapped over on to a different crew.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And who was that? —
EP: No. I’d done twenty nine.
AM: Oh, you’d done - right Okay
EP: I’d done twenty you see. That was a tour you see.
AM: Yeah.
EP: They liked you do two tours because you’ve got all the latest equipment.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And you’re using the equipment that the main force doesn’t have.
AM: Tell me what it was actually like Ernie. Going up and doing that. An operation.
EP: Well, you used to get the battle order going up in the mess, didn’t you? As soon as you saw your name on the bloody battle order, you couldn’t get in the toilet. You had all the toilets there, wash basins there, but you’re going to be coming and then when we come out of the toilets. The fear.
AM: Everybody?
EP: People say, ‘Were you were frightened?’ But constipation wasn’t a problem in those days.
AM: Were you frightened?
EP: Of course, you were. You were shit scared.
AM: Right.
EP: That was it. You wanted to go, that frightened feeling, you wanted to go to the toilet but you were waiting. All the toilets were occupied when the battle order went up.
AM: Right. And then what?
EP: Well, it —
AM: Describe it to me. What it was — you know, from actually getting the battle order right through, doing the operation, and coming back.
EP: Well once you knew where you were going to, you stayed over at the bomber. They didn’t let you out, and you’d maybe be over an hour, an hour and a half waiting to take off. Much of the time you did that, they’d come out, it was cancelled, and everybody went back to their billets, got changed and out for the night. You lived for the day.
AM: Why would they cancel it?
EP: Don’t know. Maybe a lot of cloud. Something.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But I survived. You know how many ops I did, don’t you?
AM: I do.
EP: How many?
AM: Well, he’s told me. Fifty.
EP: One.
AM: Fifty one.
EP: Yeah. We kept going until we all had done the fifty.
AM: But I want to know what it felt like, what it was actually like going. So, on the ones that weren’t cancelled. That’s it. You get in the plane. And then what? [pause], I know [laughs], I know you’re laughing at me but —
EP: Well, you settled down. You got daft you know; it’ll never happen to me. It’s not the [unclear]. As soon as you knew you were going, you thought, ‘Dear me, is this it?’ You know, and you couldn’t, you couldn’t get in the toilets for the [unclear].
AM: Right. Once you’re on the plane though, you set off. In — other people who have talked to us have talked about the bomber stream, but you were the Pathfinders so —
EP: Well, the elite of the Bomber Command was the Path. Now to be Master Bomber which we did five.
AM: Yeah.
EP: You’re the elite of the elite. When I got in to the second crew.
AM: Right. I’ve —
EP: And the first time — they used to mark the target. Mosquitos. There were a lot of Mosquito squadrons and they’d be the first to drop the white flares. The aiming point somewhere there. Now, you had to have a good bomb aimer and he’d pick it out like that. He’d be the first there, and I can always remember, and our call sign was Portland One and we had a deputy with us, and he was Portland Two, and main force was called Press On.
AM: Right.
EP: That was the call and he’s had to set thing up and tell the skipper, he could talk to them, and we would be approaching the target he starts. The Pathfinders. The flares would go down. Some would be on the target, some would be off, then you’d get another colour going out. Green maybe. And you’d tell them to ignore the greens, that’s off the target, and bomb the reds that’s fading away. They were still over the target area.
AM: When they dropped the flares? So, they dropped the coloured flares to mark the position.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Did they drop bombs as well?
EP: Yeah.
AM: Or did you just do flares.
EP: You make the bomb up. Yeah.
AM: You had a full bomb load as well.
EP: You carried it all, yeah, and I can always remember, sticks to my mind, full tanks. If you went on a long trip was two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallon. That, that’s full tanks which sacrificed bomb load for fuel.
AM: Yeah.
EP: If you were going on a long trip. For the Stettin raid, seven and a half hour trip, and we flew over Sweden, didn’t we? As we were flying over Sweden, they opened fire because it was a neutral country wasn’t it. Wasn’t it?
AM: Yeah.
EP: You remember that. Neutral country. And they fired up, and this pilot was listening out and he said, this person said, ‘You are’, he listened to them and they said, ‘You are flying over neutral territory’. And this pilot answered him, ‘We know’. Coming back over the same route, they opened fire again, and this pilot spoke to them and said, ‘You are three thousand feet off target’. And they says, ‘We know’. You get that.
AM: Yeah.
EP: True story that. They would open fire, they weren’t trying to hit you, they were just warning shots. ‘You are flying over neutral territory’. The pilot said, ‘We know’. Then coming back so they opened fire again, he said, ‘You are three thousand feet off target’, and they said, ‘We know’ [laughs]. They weren’t trying to hit you, just warning shots. That was that. And we lost twenty three bombers that night, I’ll always remember that. Some of them come down in the North Sea or something. But the most, the biggest raid I was on, was Hanover, when we lost thirty one bombers that night. And on Chemnitz, we lost thirty five bombers on the two raids we went to Chemnitz. But I did a Master Bomber raid on Dorsten, Kiel, Nuremberg, Osnabruck and Heligoland. How about that from memory?
AM: Wonderful.
EP: And we did two deputy Master Bombers.
AM: So, tell me what, tell me what the Master Bomber does.
EP: You go around and around on operations.
AM: You’re the first one though.
EP: Yeah. You go around, and you can contact your deputy. He’s there, he’s there with you and you’re going around and around all the time. And you see red flares went down and the, no, they might not be on the aiming points, because our bombers identified the aiming point. The target could have been in front or behind the flares or to the left, and you’d tell the skipper to speak to all the bombers. To main force. To bomb in front of the reds, or to port.
AM: And it’s the bomb aimer who drops the flares.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And it’s the bomb aimer who says whether it’s —
EP: Yeah.
AM: Hit the target or —
EP: So, then the next flares would go down. It may be green because it would confuse them and they might be way off, and you’d tell them to ignore them. The Master Bomber would speak to all the bombers and say ignore the greens, bomb the feeding reds, or the instructions he’d given for the flaming reds.
AM: And it’s the Master Bomber who’s saying that.
EP: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Not you as the wireless operator.
EP: No.
AM: I imagined it would be you as the wireless op.
EP: I had to write everything down he says, because I’m the only one who can write it down.
AM: Ok.
EP: But I’m writing everything he says down. And when I got back, Intelligence took my log book off me. They could tell how that raid went off by reading my logbook.
AM: Right.
EP: This is what I have to get to, after the raid was over, my skipper would assess the raid, whether it was successful or not. He’d tell me, and I’d be in touch with, I’d be in touch with our headquarters which was at Huntingdon. In Morse code it was 8LY, I’ll always remember that. And I put them in the picture about whether it was a success or not in bomber code. Nothing — you didn’t use plain language; it was all in code.
AM: Right.
EP: And bomber code altered you read at 6 o’clock at night. At 6 o’clock the next morning was different. The same thing meant something else, because you had to have all your information on sugar paper. Just for a bit of extra. We used to tear it off and chew it, just to make sure. It was sugar paper.
AM: Sugar paper. I’ve never heard of sugar paper.
EP: Yeah. All the information had to be destroyed, you know, if you crashed you had to eat that.
AM: Oh, you had to eat that. Literally. You’re not pulling my leg.
EP: Yeah. That was, it was sugar paper, you had to eat it.
AM: Right.
EP: And when I first went on the squadron, they gave me a bloody 38 revolver. We had a revolver each. I thought, what are you going to shoot. Who are you going to shoot with that? They’ll fire back at you, won’t they? I had, I had to draw it out. You had to go on the range and fire the bleeding thing. In those days, you fired like that. You used to go up. Nowadays it’s like this isn’t it? Two, have you noticed?
AM: So, its two handed now instead of one handed.
EP: It’s two hands now. In those days you fired like that. Two hands now.
AM: So where was the revolver in the, in the —
EP: Well, I should put mine down me flying boot.
AM: Down your flying boot.
EP: And the ammunition down that one. If you bailed out, then they’d drop out wouldn’t it [laughs].
AM: Can we go back?
EP: That used to be my biggest fear, seeing the bloody places burning. To think I’ve had to bale out into that lot.
AM: You never did though, did you?
EP: It used to frighten the bloody life out of me.
AM: Were you ever [pause] right. Right. Wheel back a minute. When you changed crews. So, at what point was it that you changed crews, and who was the new crew?
EP: That’s him there. That’s Alex Thorne.
AM: Alex. So, Alex Thorne was your pilot.
EP: He was, he was thirty three year old then.
AM: Which was old.
EP: And he’d a lot of experience.
AM: At the time.
EP: Thirty three year old and experienced, wasn’t he?
AM: Yeah.
EP: He was an instructor at one time.
AM: And who else was on the crew with you, Ernie?
EP: Sorry.
AM: Who else was on the crew with you?
EP: Well in that, I can always remember. There was Alex Thorne. Harry Parker, the navigator, the wireless — the flight engineer. Boris was the nav, so the second navigator.
AM: Boris Bressloff.
EP: Graham James — Graham Rose was the navigator. Scott was the mid-upper gunner. Jimmy Rayment was the rear gunner. How’s that? And Joe Clack was the bomb aimer.
AM: Right.
EP: I think we had two or three. I think we had three. But we were experienced crew. As I said, to a be a Master Bomber in the Pathfinders, you were the elite of the elite.
AM: And that was when you became — did the Master Bomber. So how many times, you said you were the Master Bomber five or six, I’ve forgotten.
EP: We did five. Last couple as deputy Master Bomber.
AM: And two deputies.
EP: Towards the end of our, to the end of second tour, if our squadron wasn’t supplying the Master Bomber, we were the only crew stepped down. Different squadrons would supply a Master Bomber for different raids and towards the end there — it’s in the, I’ve got my logbook there.
AM: I’ll have a look at your logbook in a minute if I may.
EP: It’s good reading in there. There’s a couple of raids we were on. Master Bomber there.
AM: Ernie’s showing me pictures here of the —
EP: Take offs. I took ten take offs in Dominies, thirteen in Proctors, fifteen and thirty five in Ansons, forty eight in Whitleys, sixteen in Halifaxes, a hundred and five in Lancasters, three in Liberators, one in Catalina, and twenty two in bloody all other aircraft.
AM: In a Catalina? What were you doing in a Catalina?
EP: I went to India when I finished flying. You’d got —
AM: I’ll come back to that after.
EP: That’s a long time.
AM: Yeah, I’ll come back to that story after. The two pictures are pictures of, describe, just describe those to me. What are they actually pictures of?
EP: Well, that’s — that’s Heligoland.
AM: Right. Yeah.
EP: You’ve heard of that? And on there, you see, there’s a fighter base, the garrison and the U-boat pens.
AM: And who would have taken that picture? The bomb aimer?
EP: No, the aircraft.
AM: The aircraft. The air. Oh, it’s an automatic camera, isn’t it? Yeah.
EP: And that one’s Oldenburg. It tells you that and that was Alex the day I was, they are the target indicator. Did you know that the target indicators cascaded a thousand feet? Did you know that?
AM: No.
EP: There’s a fuse on the end. I can always remember. They were eight pound a piece then. What happened? The flares don’t go up? You see them cascading, don’t you? Well, the pressure at a thousand feet ignites them.
AM: And that’s the flare.
EP: That’s the flare. But the full, full amount of five hundred pound bombs and you’ve got the four thousand pounder, to be carrying the four thousand pound bomb all the time. And you know, they’re distributed off the aircraft you know. They don’t just all go off. It’s distributed so that it keeps the aircraft level.
AM: Yeah. So, you don’t —
EP: So, it doesn’t go top heavy. They distributed off the bombs so the aircraft —
AM: How many would one aircraft drop? How many flares would you drop?
EP: Well six or seven.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Of different colours. But —
AM: So, you’d do your first colour first.
EP: Whatever — you see. You’d make it —
AM: And you’d drop them all together, but you’d know which one had —
EP: Everything’s dropped in a big —
AM: Right. Ok. So, tell me —
EP: You’ve got the full five hundred pound going down together, but they all balanced off to keep the aircraft level, you know. They don’t all go ruddy together. Should keep the nose down.
AM: ‘Cause I’m imagining that you dropped —
EP: You see, at night time, there’s a photo, you’ve got a photoflash and you’ve got a photoflare in the chute. Half way down the aircraft. It’s a quarter of a million candle power. That’s what you measure light with isn’t it? Did you know that?
AM: No.
EP: That’s candle power. And it was a quarter of a million candle power did this flash. Now, when you drop your bombs at night, your camera takes over and takes up the release point in case you’re not in the position, ‘cause you’ve got to be straight and level to get the photograph at night you know.
AM: You’re supposed to be still and level aren’t you, as it’s taking it?
EP: It works out so when your bombs hit the deck and flares, the bombs hit the deck and the flares are going down behind them. The photoflash flashes and your camera takes, all synchronised together so your bombs hit the deck, your flashes and your camera take over. Take a picture. All three together. Nobody operates it. You relied on [unclear], that was one of the things. Marvellous.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But I used to have to be sent back to put my hand down the chute to make sure the bugger had gone. What would have happened if we’d landed and it had stuck? And it stuck on its way down. What would have happened if we’d gone with —? That operated at a thousand feet as well.
AM: So, what did you do if it hadn’t gone?
EP: You had to make sure that it had gone. There was ways of ejecting it.
AM: Right.
EP: What would have happened if you’d got down to a thousand feet?
AM: Oh yeah, I can imagine.
EP: It would have exploded and that would have been the aircraft.
AM: I can imagine.
EP: It would have been on fire.
AM: I can imagine. Yeah. I just had, I just had this picture of you crawling back along the aircraft to make sure it’s gone.
EP: Yeah.
AM: And it’s still there.
EP: Yeah, if it was, you would have had to make sure. There was ways of releasing some the bombs and that.
AM: Why would you have released it.
EP: You can take the plates off. If you’ve got bombs hanging off. Sometimes you’d maybe land with the bombs stuck up, but you make sure they’ve gone. You can always tell. When you lose the bombs, the aircraft goes up like that, you know. When you lose bombs in the air, in day light was the worst. You could see the bloody aircraft go over and over and the bomb doors open, and some of the shear bombs shooting past you, just goes past your wing tips. They knocked turrets off as well, didn’t they? You can’t see them. It was a hell of a thing. Aye. Daylight was the worst. Everyone jockeying to get near the target and the bomb doors were open, and they’re going over to get into position. He drops his bombs and he goes up like that. You’ve dropped yours at the same time and you’re going to be back alongside him again. But that’s what it was like.
AM: If you were at the front. So, you’re the Pathfinder at the front and there’s all the other aircraft behind you, did they come up alongside you then.
EP: You see, you’ve got to be, you had to work to time. Time was essential. You had to be in that position in the air at that very — so you didn’t bump into one another. That was worse? You were colliding with one another. You had to be in that right spot all the time. Otherwise for every, if you go, for every hour in the air to a target, you’ve got five minutes to play with. Now, if you found that you were right, you had to pick a spot where you’re going to lose time. If you were five minutes earlier than where you should be. So, you could either make a big orbit in the bomber stream, which wasn’t very nice, or you could alter course sixty degrees to port. Fly out of the bomber stream for five minutes. A hundred and forty degrees. You fly back in in five minutes. Everything was — and you got back on course and you’ve only gone that bit and that’s where you lost a bit of time.
AM: Who made that decision?
EP: Well, it’s [unclear], it’s all, that’s what you’ve got to do as a navigator.
AM: It was the navigator.
EP: He told us. And we had H2S on there you know, which had an eighteen mile radius. He used to check with the pilot. He used to just tip the aircraft like that, to keep the nose, to keep them on course. You could be on course and off track you know. You could be there, on course, but off track in relation to the ground. See what I mean?
AM: No.
EP: You can be on course and on track.
AM: Right.
EP: That means you’re in the right position on the ground, in relation to the ground.
AM: So, what, what’s HS2? Is that the — ?
EP: That’s the big blister. I forget what it’s called but that — it had an eighteen miles —
GR: Radar.
AM: A radar.
EP: Radius. If you were going past some built up area and you knew what was there. They knew all this. You just had to just, skipper to the tip the aeroplane and it flickered, so it sent the rays out there. It picked the building up and gave you some idea. He was wonderful. You wouldn’t think he was on operations. Our navigator, Graham Rose. He was that all the time. Very vigilant. And he was plotting our position every six minutes. A little diamond on his route. Wonderful navigator. Wonderful pilot. Wonderful. I think this is why we survived. We were in the right place at the right time. I was asked that when they interviewed me at the Teesside airport, when the Canadian Lanc was there — how come I survived like that. I said, ‘I think we were in the right place at the right time’, and I’ve seen bloody aircraft blow up in the sky.
AM: Eric, Eric said didn’t he, another chap that we know, said that they kept safe all due to the navigator.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Who kept them in the middle of the bombing stream all the time.
EP: He was the main man, not the ruddy pilot in my eyes. The navigator was the main one in the bloody Lanc. Definitely. He wasn’t, I’d ask him to have a look, have a look at it. I’d step down. Have a look now. Your pals can’t see bloody much, there’s fog and there’s wingtips. They can’t see bloody much on the ground. It’s everybody else can.
AM: Did you ever get shot at? Well obviously, you got shot at. Did you ever get hit?
EP: Just with flak.
AM: Yeah.
EP: I remember I seemed to suffer more with that with the first crew I was with. We used to get out with all the paraphernalia and walk around the bomb site when we knew we could count. Flak mad.
AM: What? While you were still up there?
EP: No. When we landed.
AM: When you landed.
EP: You could walk around and see how many holes in it. And you could whip through ruddy wires that were all clipped together like that, whip through them like butter if you got hit by flak. You see, in my compartment, I had what they called Fishpond and you could see any aircraft underneath you, ‘cause you had it up. It could fly underneath you and shoot you down. We had no protection at all underneath, they used to fly and fire upwards into you. That’s how he shot. There was a show on recently. A bloody German fighter pilot, that’s what he used to do. Shoot them down like that. Shot many a Lancaster down. He was showing them in his logbook where he shot you down, even took the letters of the aircraft that he shot down, this German pilot. If you could see them, well you see with this Fishpond, it took the centre of the H2S and if an aircraft, a fighter were going underneath you or anything you would see them. It would blip.
AM: Did your gunners ever manage to shoot anybody down?
EP: Well, if they don’t fire at you, you don’t fire back at them, you just bloody ignore them. But what do you do if you get a fighter on your tail, there was a recognised corkscrew. Did you know that? If they’ve got a fighter in front of you know, to hit you, like, when you know you see the American things. They’re coming up the side but I don’t know how they do it, because you’d be all flying that way. He’s coming this way. See what I mean? Well —
AM: Because of the speed of the aircraft. And the guns.
EP: The German fighter’s going to fire came in front of you ‘cause you’re all going that way.
AM: Yeah. So, you fly into it.
EP: So, if he’s coming at you and you’ve got the back. If you come this way, you’ll hear the rear gunner telling him to corkscrew to starboard. Go like that with a Lanc. Take it down like. The German fighters got to come around like that. He breaks away and he comes down and he, and you come around and you come back up like that. And you can see the bloody propeller just fanning around with the force of gravity all the petrol away from the bloody, from the propellers. From the engine. You can just flip them around. You come go on to there and get back on course. Come at this again. They don’t fire at you. You just keep out of the way.
AM: You just keep out of the way.
EP: Don’t blow your — that you’ve seen them but night time, everything’s is black. You can’t see anything. And coming back fifty miles from base, this is another tip, I had to call up base to get the barometric pressure of the base so that the pilot could put it on his altimeter. Of course, there were no lights on. You’ve got to get other side before you can see the runway lights. And we had FIDO then. Do you know what that was?
AM: I know what FIDO was. Did you ever have to land at a FIDO airport?
EP: Yeah. One or two. I can always remember though the very first trip I did with this new crew, we went to, it think, was it? It was Chemnitz, I think, but we got, I got a call from Group headquarters. We had to go and land at Ford of all places. Yet we had FIDO on account of training command — a lot of them had landed there, but when you get a group broadcast, you’ve got to do what they say. We could have got down and landed at FIDO but I got a message, and we had to go and land at Ford, down near Southampton it was. I can always remember that, and we were stepped up to ten thousand feet. There was that many bombers needing to land there.
AM: What’s it like seeing that because it’s petrol burning, isn’t it? Along the runway.
EP: Aye. That’s all it is. It just disperses the fog. When you fly over, did I tell you, you drop like that when you’re coming in to land. There’s one coming this way, when you’re coming in to land and when you fly over, you can feel the aircraft drop down with the heat does it. But when we went to Ford there, course it’s a straight bloody bomber station. When we did eventually land, these women bloody controllers they were the ones. They used to make their voices very clear. They knew what they were doing. I used to — a women operators at flying control. They brought them all. They’d speak to every bomber ’cause they made touch with you there. Some were calling up on three engines, wanting to get down. Giving them priority, and they’d talk to everyone. Bring them all down like that, speak to every one of them. Then when we landed, where did we go, a little van used to pull up in front of it and big words, “Come on. Follow me”. This little — and you followed this little van and you followed, and he switched his lights off, and you knew that was where you’ve got to stop. The next day, you had to go and find your bomber.
AM: I was just going to say.
EP: There was that bloody many there.
AM: So, you’ve all landed. You’re there. What? And you’re at “foreign”, in inverted commas, airport.
EP: Yeah
AM: And that’s — where did you sleep? Just where ever you can.
EP: Pick your own. That was ok, you just picked your billet. There was empty billets.
AM: Oh right. Ok.
EP: You slept in all your flying gear, and maybe there was a meal for you as well, which you got every time you went on ops. You got proper eggs bacon and chips every time you went on ops. And when you came back, you got it. They were all rationed in Civvy Street. Yeah.
GR: Ford was the emergency landing base.
AM: Yeah.
GR: On the south coast.
AM: Yes.
EP: And the next day, they went to find our bomber and we get, I think, I don’t know whether we got fuelled up or something, but we were hedge hopping all the way back.
AM: What does that mean?
EP: Very low. We called it.
AM: Right.
EP: When you’re very low, you call it hedge hopping. I was that low. It took us about an hour to get back, it took us about an hour to get back because I had to phone up base. Call up base to let them know we were on our way. Did you know bomber aircraft wasn’t allowed to go in the air without a wireless operator?
AM: I didn’t.
EP: Navigator? Yes. I can remember when I was flying in the Whitleys. It’s in that book. The numerous air tests I did, with just me and the pilot. Used to always call for me from the sergeant’s mess. I could find, if he got lost on an air test, I could get him back to base. He didn’t have to have — that was why no aircraft was allowed off the ground without a wireless operator.
AM: Because you’re the connection.
EP: Well, you can call me.
AM: Back to —
EP: You can call it.
AM: Yeah.
EP: The navigator wants to make sure I can get a fix for him from in the air, as a wireless operator you know. There’s three stations in the country, you call that one up and these two are listening to him working you, so then you go through the procedures. He takes a bearings on you.
AM: Yeah.
EP: He takes a bearing on you, and he takes a bearing on you, and he plots them all on his charts and where they all cross — that’s your position.
AM: And tells you where you are.
EP: Five minutes after, you can ask him again if there’s nobody else bloody working them. And you turn them all together, you could see where you are in the sky. You needed a wireless operator all the time.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
AM: Gary was telling me a story as we were coming up, about a day when you were ready to take off and your fuel gauges was showing nil.
EP: Oh, that was when the skipper got a DSO for that. We were the Master Bomber that day.
AM: So, what happened? Tell me. What was the story?
EP: We’d been training in the day time right. And the Army couldn’t take Osnabruck. Whoever was trying to take the opposition. So, when you’re doing training, cross country, if you’re not on ops, you’re doing cross country training and bombing in The Wash. And I’ve got to contact base every half hour and I got the [unclear] for me to return to base. So, we came back to base. We were briefed straight away and we were taken out to the bomber and we took off straightaway. That’s how urgent it was. Otherwise, you’re waiting for an hour, an hour and a half before you go, and we took off before we should. In the end, we got in and found we hadn’t enough petrol. Skipper said to Harry, ‘Can you work out how much we’ve got?’ So, he said, ‘We haven’t got enough to get us there and back’.
AM: So that was when it was Alex Thorne.
EP: That was Alex Thorne.
AM: Yeah.
EP: So, he said, ‘We’ll go and we’ll bale out over France’, so, we were taxiing out to take off, got to the end of the runway and he pulled in to one of the dispersals. Broke RT silence and then we had to get the fella — the bowser driver had gone to the NAAFI for his break and they had to get him back. And so, we got the navigator, we cut that leg off and dogleg to the target. Cut that leg out and go to that one. Time was going by. Cut that leg out and go straight to the target. We took off on the wrong runway and flew straight to the target. And we got, and that was the day the highest we ever got, we got up to twenty three thousand feet. I’ll always remember that. And I can remember as we were approaching the target, skipper was weaving to get predicted with the radar. And there was about six bursts of flak on our tail. Straightaway, the rear gunner said, ‘Dive skipper, dive’, and we were up at twenty three thousand feet that day and he put it in to a dive, and you can imagine them reloading and firing and I was in the astrodome looking out. You could see all the bursts following us down as we were going down. You could see all the bursts. You know that, you know the feeling when you’re the last one to go to bed. You go up the stairs, thinking some buggers behind you and that, when you’re a kid, and that’s the feeling I got. When you could, you wanted to go faster. And you ruddy, you could follow this flak burst. That split second earlier, they would have hit us. And of course, the skipper, we started, and all the bombers were approaching the target and we were coming this way, and the skipper got in touch with the deputy, and that’s how the raid went on. And the skipper got the DSO for carrying that raid. We were the Master Bomber that day. We had to go. Now, if we didn’t, it would have happened? No Master Bomber. The raid would have been a flop. But we couldn’t. They couldn’t. They would have promulgated. He got the DSO on that raid. It was on Nuremberg. Another raid. We did a Master Bomber raid on Nuremberg, and we were on the approach. We were approaching the target, we got, I think we were just going to drop our bombs, and we got a wall up and the aircraft went into a dive, and Harry said — he had his back up against the pilot, pushing the stick back for the skipper, and it didn’t respond, and all the bombs gone. It eventually responded on its own, but by the time he had he got it around, it had gone in to the [unclear], because the deputy took over and took them further into Germany. As if Nuremberg wasn’t being far enough. But this [unclear], we were all on our, weren’t we? They’d all gone, the raid was over. There’s these two fighters coming towards us, I could see the gunners were waiting for them. They were two Mustangs. Better aircraft than the bloody Spitfire by all means. And do you know what? One of them came right alongside us. He had his hood back and he was a coloured pilot, American, and he was smoking a big Havana cigar. To let the smoke out. What do you think of that? And the other one was on the other side, and they escorted us back a hell of a way and as soon as they left us, in no time, a Spitfire came alongside and escorted us back.
AM: And escorted you back. Was the one in the Mustang — were they the Tuskegee’s were they called?
EP: I don’t know, but it was a coloured pilot.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And he had the hood back to let the smoke out.
AM: With his cigar.
EP: Smoking a Havana cigar.
AM: Waggling his wings at you.
EP: True story that.
AM: Yeah.
EP: We were escorted back a couple of time, with a Lancaster once, then it got shot down. Jack Harrold. I think it was on the Ruhr. We got, we’d gone three engines and this bloody Lanc flew up alongside. I’ve got a letter from what the skipper wrote to him, I’ve got the letter somewhere, but he found out after he got killed. He got shot down that lad, and in his letter, he said, ‘Do unto others as they would do unto you’. He said, if I’d left you, because when you lose an engine, you know, you lose all bloody sorts, you know, ‘cause all your power and that to your guns and dropping your wheels and hydraulics, and all the power comes from your engine.
AM: So, it’s not just the engine. It’s everything that it was powering.
EP: So, if an engine bloody stops, you know, the ways you could lose if you. I don’t know which engine it was but if you lost power with that you can’t — your wings. You’ve got to drop your wings, crank them around to get to lock them. Now where I sat in my place, I could see, I could see the wheels. I used to tell. When the skipper selected me, when we were coming in to land anyway, you could see the wheels had dropped down and I could feel the power build up then. You could see them do that, and I used to tell them they’d done that. I let him know that at least they had locked. If you’ve got, if you hadn’t got the indication on your panel on the aircraft. It’s a wonderful bloody aeroplane, the Lancaster, wonderful aeroplane.
AM: Wonderful.
EP: I’ve got three hundred and fifty hours flying one, and I think about two hundred and seventy operational ones, and we used to, when we were going on ops or were going on bloody training, we used to do cross-country’s for the navigators. We’d meet up with a bloody Spitfire or a Mustang for the gunners to have, you know, for the fight, and in The Wash, there was a triangle in The Wash. Did you know that? We used to drop ten pound smoke bombs. You could see them. Just ten pound in weight. They were little tiny bombs for the bomb aimer and this used to fascinate me. When we, this was on the way back, that was part of the training, and when you, the pilot would make contact with the base [unclear], whatever, and we were going to drop these bombs, and you had to tell them what height you were at. Do you know what they used to use for the height? Angels. Now isn’t that nice? We’re at Angels 10. Ten thousand feet. Now, isn’t that lovely?
AM: Yeah.
EP: That was a difference of not saying ten thousand feet. Angels 10.
AM: Ten. Angels 10.
EP: Wasn’t that lovely? That’s what they used to tell us what height we were at, ‘cause you just had to keep flying low, turn around and keep coming back and drop a one or two. That was —
AM: So, was there continual training in between the operations then?
EP: Oh aye. You would turn up when you were on ops. Every day was the same. Saturday. Sunday. There was no Saturday and Sunday. Any day. Aren’t you saying something?
AM: That was to Gary who is sat with us. Aren’t you? Have you got anything to say Gary? Any questions? Any extra questions?
EP: I think he’s put a bit of weight on as well, you know
GR: Oh, thanks Ernie.
EP: Haven’t you. Eh?
GR: I’ve lost weight.
AM: Never mind weight. Have you got any questions?
GR: When did you get your DFM?
EP: After we finished, didn’t we? I was recommended for a commission you know, after the war. I think, you know, how that worked if there was officers left. Officer’s mess if a crew get approachable, two of his crew. Now Jimmy Rayment, the rear gunner and me, after we’d, we’d finished flying, I think, I think it was after we bloody got out of the ruddy bomber at Heligoland. That was the last trip I did. And he said he’d recommended us both for a commission. Of course, we got a fortnight’s, leave, didn’t we? We all went on a fortnight’s and while I was on my fortnights, we decided to get married, didn’t we? So, I waited for another fortnight to get my —
AM: Oh, I was going to ask you when you met your wife and all that.
EP: Because what they do — you ask for a fortnight. They say seven days granted.
GR: Yeah.
EP: So, I’d asked for a fortnight, I only wanted seven days and I got the bloody, I got the fortnight and during that fortnight, the war ended. I was married on the 5th of May and the war ended on the 8th, didn’t it?
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Did you know that? I was on leave, weren’t I, and I got bloody posted to do another bombing, to another Pathfinder squadron. Off my leave. I thought, well what about my commission? They must have thought, well the war’s over now. We were surplus, or they’ve, ‘cause Jimmy, he went back, didn’t he? And he got his commission but I didn’t. I ended up in bloody India. I had to do something. I ended up in charge of flying control in India.
AM: I was going to ask you what —
EP: And this why, this is why I got the trip in the Catalina. Out there.
AM: So —
EP: I was then put in charge of bloody flying control out there. And I was dealing with flying bods coming from Hong Kong to the UK for demob.
AM: So, hang on. So, the war finished, then you got married.
EP: I got married on the 8th
AM: And then before demob —
EP: I got married on the 5th of May.
AM: Yeah.
EP: 1945.
AM: Yeah.
EP: The war ended on the 8th of May.
AM: Yeah. So then when did you get — so the war’s ended but obviously, it’s a long while before your demob.
EP: That was always first in were first out, but I did get, I was offered my class B release.
AM: What does that mean?
EP: Because I was a builder, wasn’t I? Joiner.
GR: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
EP: They wanted you in Civvy Street then. Right. I was going to jump the queue and come out before I should do.
AM: So how did you end up in India then?
EP: The thing was if you, if you took your Class B, you go where they’re sending you and you got a fortnight’s leave. Well, I didn’t want that, I wanted to pick my own bloody job, so, I waited for my Class A release which was about five or six weeks after my release would have been up. I got, I took the month’s leave I was entitled to and I went and worked. Picked my own bloody job which was near home.
AM: Right. Tell me just —
EP: You had to go where they sent you when you did that.
AM: Just before you tell me about the job, tell me about going flying your Catalina and going to India.
EP: From Chelmsford I went, I think from there.
AM: Did you go on your own or were Harry or Boris or any of them with you?
EP: Lots of them were posted then until your demob number came up. It was always first in, first out, when your demob number come up.
GR: Was that just you Ernie? It wasn’t any of the other crew. It wasn’t Harry, or Boris or any of them.
EP: No. No. I think Harry — he went flying straightaway with Cheshire, didn’t he?
GR: Yes.
EP: Did you know that?
AM: Yes, I did. Yeah.
EP: Harry. Harry and Cheshire went up in to Scotland and bought two Mosquitos for seven hundred and fifty pound, and one of them only had twenty flying hours in. And Harry flew with Cheshire, setting up Cheshire homes in Europe.
AM: Yes, I remember that.
EP: Harry did that.
AM: So, where, where did, tell me again why you went then, before you were demobbed.
EP: I went to a place called Korangi Creek in India, near Karachi.
AM: And what were you doing?
EP: I was just — you had to do something until your demob number came. I ended up, I was in to accounts but I didn’t do it, go into it. I was in, it was a Flying Boat base which was in the process of closing down, and we were dealing with Sunderland Flying Boats coming from Hong Kong to UK for demob, and I used to have to deal with them. You see, once they left Hong Kong, they were my pigeon. Then when I left them — they left me, I had to organise petrol for them and all the meals and whatever. Fill them up. Then when I, then when they left me, Bahrain was the next stop. But it was, I used to wire Bahrain to let them know it was on its way. It was their pigeon. And it was there, and I used to, and these Sunderland Flying Boats used to take off the next day, and I used to arrange them for the meals for them and accommodation where I was, and I’d go with them to the launch with them, with the Anglo Indians, to see them off. And on this particular, we were in in this launch going along, and this Sunderland Flying Boat coming alongside me. Well, all of a sudden, for some reason, they turn off the bloody flarepath, like that, and this bloody fella driving the launch — he didn’t see him [laughs] and we were all bawling at him. There was a few of us on this launch with him, and I spoke to the pilot about it. He said, ‘I’m sorry’. I’ll always remember that. It was, and I think, do you know what? They approached me to join them. BOAC took it over. He said, ‘You’re a wireless operator. We need wireless operators. Why don’t you join us?’ I said, ‘Well I’m in the bloody RAF, aren’t I?’ When you get out you join us. We need wireless operators. I didn’t.
AM: Why didn’t you, why didn’t you?
EP: I wanted out. I’d already had enough of bloody flying, I wanted out, and they used to approach me. They had ones that would, they had their staff, we had ours. He said, ‘Why don’t you join us? We need radio officers in BOAC’. What might have — because I’d been pulled over the coals by the family for not taking it on. I wanted out, I’d done enough. Anyway, the thing was, I wasn’t up, when I was offered this commission. And the war ended. Whatever happened after that didn’t apply. But in a way — what they did with you, if you got a commission after you finished your flight, Transport Command they’d put you on. And I wanted out, I’d had enough of bloody flying.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But you never know. I’d been lucky up till then and that’s it. Only bloody birds and fools fly. But I wanted out and that was why I didn’t pursue it. I could have pursued it and they might have got me something earlier, and they posted me to another Pathfinder squadron, and I got posted from there. I ended up at Biggin Hill. I could always remember that. How [unclear] I was
AM: What were, what were you doing there?
EP: Just in transit all the bloody time ‘til they decided what to do with me. [Unclear] was there. I met up with him, he was at Biggin Hill.
GR: When did your demob finally come through?
EP: When?
GR: Yeah. When did you actually finish in the RAF?
EP: September ’46.
GR: ’46.
EP: See, another thing, if I accepted, if I’d accepted a commission — another way I looked at it. You get discharged out the RAF and brought back in as an officer, different number and that and you’ve got stay in at least twelve month from being a commission.
AM: Right.
EP: I thought I want out, I want out sharpish. I didn’t. it was another bloody twelve month before I didn’t come out. So that was it. I turned it down, I didn’t pursue it, but that was it. I ended up as a warrant officer which was automatic.
AM: Yeah.
EP: But my bonus out of the war was meeting to meet my beautiful wife. She was in the land army
AM: Where did you meet, where did you meet, Ernie.
EP: She was in the land army. She was in the land army in Wisbech.
AM: Right.
EP: I met her in the November. We were engaged and married in six month.
AM: So, she was in Wisbech. Where? Was that when you were based near there then?
EP: I was based at Downham Market.
AM: Oh, at Downham Market. Of course, you were. Yeah.
EP: I was based about fifteen miles away.
AM: Where did you meet her then?
EP: At a dance.
AM: At a dance.
EP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: What was she called, Ernie?
EP: Kathleen.
AM: Kathleen.
EP: Yeah. She was a lovely person.
AM: She was your bonus.
EP: I’d have died a thousand deaths to keep her. I could have packed. On Pathfinders, you know, you’ve got to do, they like to do two tours. Main force you do thirty.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Which is one tour, and you go away to be an instructor somewhere and they get you back to do another fifteen, but towards the end of the war, they weren’t doing that. They were just doing the thirty. Now, Americans only did twenty five, and then they went home, didn’t they? ‘Cause they all flew straight and level all the time, but we flew a different pattern altogether. Americans.
GR: Do you know how many ops Alex Thorne did in the end?
EP: He did about fifty three. Fifty four.
GR: Fifty three. Fifty four.
EP: Yeah, but I keep referring to this. When I read anything, I keep referring to this, it’s all in here.
AM: Ernie’s got his logbook.
EP: I’ll just show you some. An operational page [long pause] In red, it’s night time. Green, it’s day time.
AM: Yeah.
EP: And it’s, here in the, the number of ops I lost. On the fifty odd raids that I was on, we lost two hundred and seventy five bombers. But it’s the number of ops and the number of aircraft lost on that raid. So, it’s all, it’s a very interesting book this. Look at all. Look at that page for a kick off. In that. See all the —
AM: Yeah. I’m looking now at, I’m looking now at the different raids so Chennai, Dessau
EP: Chemnitz. See, all the times I was in the air is in the next column.
AM: Eight hours. Yeah.
EP: And the number of ops and the number of aircraft we lost. If you go the other way, that’s there’s some more. Some more. It’s quite a — one of my proud possessions that. Did you know, did you know when you’re selected as a Pathfinder, you’ve got to be marking and you get a certificate. You can be pulled up by the RAF police in the town. You could have a permit to wear those little gold wings. Did you know that?
AM: No.
EP: You’d have a permit and when you finished flying you got a permanent certificate from Bennett. I’ll show you.
AM: I’m looking, I’m looking at this one here. So, the operation — Heligoland.
EP: That was the last one.
AM: As Master Bomber, and then you’ve written in blue underneath, abortive sortie. So, there was a final abortive sortie after the Heligoland.
EP: That was, that was another one. I don’t know whether — I think if you can get within a certain distance, you can count it as one.
AM: It was like a quarter of an operation
EP: So, I did. So that’s it. it could have been fifty two. On the countdown. But go back to where you see more ops.
AM: Oh yeah. There’s —
EP: See.
AM: Yeah.
EP: Do you see all those amongst the people you interview?
AM: Yeah. Lots of people have got logbooks. Some haven’t but some do.
EP: Have you seen them all?
AM: Hmmn.
EP: How many had the DFM then?
AM: Sorry?
EP: How many had the DFM?
GR: Not many.
AM: I can’t. Not many.
EP: Do you know there were twenty thousand DFCs given out? Eight hundred and seventy DSOs. Six and a half thousand DFMs. This is why the DFM is more.
AM: Is more. It’s more.
EP: Did you watch that Antiques Roadshow the other night? Monday night.
AM: No.
EP: There was a lad on there. He’d had his grandad’s DFC, his medals, I have, and his logbook like that, and do you know how much they valued it at? Between three and four thousand pounds.
AM: Blimey.
EP: Now, I’ve got the Pathfinder certificate.
AM: The Pathfinder. Yeah. I’ve found the, I’ve found that one where you were Ford to base.
[Recording paused]
GR: Not with my interviews but when I’ve visited —
AM: So, I’m looking here at Ernie’s award of his Pathfinder Force badge, which certifies that, “1567159. Flight Sergeant Patterson, GE. Having qualified for the award of the Pathfinder Force badge and having now completed satisfactorily the requisite conditions of operational duty in the Pathfinder Force, is hereby awarded permanently his Pathfinder Force badge, issued on the 22nd of April 1945”. Signed by —
GR: Bennett.
AM: Bennett. Who was the air officer commanding of the Pathfinder force. And Ernie’s going to show me his badge in a minute, I think. What’s he fetching me now? I’ll try and get some scans of some of this information.
EP: This is, this is a permit to wear it before you get that.
AM: So, what Ernie’s telling me is that you have —
EP: You could be pulled up by the police.
AM: Come and sit. Come and sit down again and tell me about this
GR: Do as she says [laughs]
AM: So, the permit says, and it’s issued from the headquarters of the Pathfinder Force, again, to Flight Sergeant Patterson. “You have today qualified for the award of the Pathfinder Force badge, and are entitled to wear the badge as long as you remain in Pathfinder Force”, and again, signed by Bennett, Air Vice Marshall. So, what did the badge mean? Tell me. Tell me again. What?
EP: You can see them.
GR: It’s there.
AM: Yeah, but you were telling me. Yeah, I’ve got it. And you were telling me that if you were pulled up by the police
EP: RAF police. They used to have red hats on and —
AM: Yeah.
EP: In the town. Because people used to masquerade as wearing them, in the town, and wear it.
AM: Why. Why did they wear it?
EP: Swaggering.
AM: Oh, to swagger around in it.
EP: Showing off. That’s how they were. Another one.
AM: And I’ve got the letter from Buckingham Palace, “With the award that you have so well earned, I send it to you with my congratulations and my best wishes for your future happiness”.
EP: That’s what, that’s what appeared in the paper.
AM: And I’ve got a clipping in here from April 1945. A Darlington joiner gets the DFM.
EP: That was, that’s in the, I think that was taken on the —
AM: Blimey and I’ve got a picture here of Ernie with a wireless.
EP: That was 1154.
AM: I’m going to scan some of this stuff, but before we finish, I’ve switched it back on because I want you to tell me. I don’t — I don’t think it’s anything to do with the RAF, but you know your, your interest Ernie, in knowing all the different —
EP: I’m making sure my memory is still there
AM: Right. Hang on. Collective nouns.
EP: Yeah. What do you want to know?
AM: I want, I want to know loads of them. I want you to come and tell me some.
EP: You’ve seen the DFM haven’t you?
AM: But first of all, I’m getting to look at Ernie’s DFM.
EP: Have you seen some who have them?
AM: No, let me. I haven’t seen, I’ve not seen your one
EP: Of course they don’t
AM: Let me have a look.
EP: There’s the Pathfinder wing.
GR: That’s the Pathfinder wings which you wore
EP: There’s a Pathfinder wing.
AM: And there’s your DFM. So, the Pathfinder wing is actually a really beautiful — is it —
GR: RAF wing.
AM: Is it on a tie pin?
EP: Yes. It’s alright.
AM: And it’s the RAF eagle looking out towards the left. With the beautiful gold wings and the DFM, of course, is the one with the diagonal striped ribbon as opposed to the DFC one.
GR: And is the only medal with the recipient’s name on the edge.
AM: And is the only medal with the recipient’s name on the edge. Which I didn’t know. So, tell me some of these collective nouns.
EP: What time are you going?
AM: Tell me some, tell me some interesting ones.
EP: I’ve got dinner coming at 12 but I’ll put it –
AM: Why did you become interested in knowing what all the collective nouns are for groups of animals?
EP: I just read them. Some of them fascinated. Like a lot ravens. Unkindness. Isn’t that nice?
AM: A kindness.
EP: Unkindness.
AM: Unkindness sorry. Of ravens.
EP: Ravens. A lot of ladybirds. A love of ladybirds. Isn’t that nice?
AM: Lovely.
EP: Flamingos. A flurry of flamingos. A bale of turtles. A posse of turkeys. How many do you want to know?
AM: All of them.
EP: What they call a lot of moles. A movement. And that’s a nice name, isn’t it?
AM: A movement of moles.
EP: A movement, Moles yeah. And a lot of sparrows. A quarrel.
AM: A quarrel.
EP: You know what a lot of owls are. A parliament. A parliament of owls. It doesn’t sound right does it? Another nice one. A lot of snipe. Have you ever heard of a snipe?
AM: Yeah.
EP: A whisper.
AM: A whisper of snipes.
EP: Of snipe. Yeah, I looked them up.
AM: The wings just whispering. I could —
EP: And a covoy of pheasants. A covoy.
AM: A covoy.
EP: C.O.V.O.Y.
AM: I know that one.
EP: A covoy of pheasants.
AM: Yeah.
EP: No. Partridges that. A covoy of partridge. And a bouquet. A bouquet of pheasants. A town of giraffes. A crash of rhino. A pod of hippos. There’s lots of them. A destruction of wild cats. There’s a deceit of lapwing. An exaltation of skylarks. An ostentation of eagles. A mustering of storks. A flight of swallows.
AM: Just a flight of swallows.
EP: A flight. A flight of swallows. There’s lots of them. And what else? A sloth of bears. A sloth. A skulk of foxes.
AM: Some of them you can really see why and some of them you just can’t.
EP: Some are nice. And you get, what is it? A pace of donkeys, a barren of mules. You know why it’s called a barren?
AM: No.
EP: They don’t breed do they? They’re barren.
AM: Oh, a barren. Barren.
EP: Barren of mules. A mule is a cross between a donkey and a horse, isn’t it? They don’t breed mules. Did you know that?
AM: No. I did know that. But when you said barren, I was thinking baron.
EP: She can’t have kids, can she? I thought that was a good name for them. Mules. And you’ve got a charm of goldfinches. And a chime of Wrens. An army of frogs. A bevvy of otters. Do you know where otters live? Do you know what it’s called? Where otters live? A holt. H O L T. A holt. An army of frogs. A nest of snakes.
AM: What about toads?
EP: I don’t know about that one.
AM: No.
EP: But you get an array of hedgehogs. What do you call a lot of grasshoppers? It’s in the sky. What’s in the sky?
AM: Sun.
EP: Cloud.
AM: A cloud.
GR: A cloud.
AM: Oh cloud. of course.
GR: A cloud of grasshoppers. Yeah.
EP: I can remember the, what the great granddaughter — we met up with her when she was with her mum and dad one day and she had a pen and paper with her and I gave her fifty names.
AM: Brilliant.
EP: Yeah. That’s some of them. Some of them are a fascinating. Some of them — like a lot ravens. An unkindness. That’s my favourite. Nice, isn’t it?
GR: What was crows?
EP: Crows, a murder wasn’t it?
GR: A murder of crows.
AM: A murder of crows.
EP: That’s terrible that is. A mutation of, a murmuration of starlings and a mutation of thrushes.
AM: Is there one for swans?
EP: Eh?
AM: Swans.
EP: Swans. A bank.
AM: A bank of swans.
EP: That’s what it says. Some of them there’s three or four names for them but I just remember one of them.
GR: Yeah.
EP: A deceit of lapwing. An exultation of skylarks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ernie Patterson. One
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APattersonGE151008, PPattersonGE1501, PPattersonGE1502
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:14:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ernie Patterson DFM was born in Middleton St George in Darlington. At the age of 14, he left school and took on a job as an apprentice Joiner.
He joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 19 in 1941, but whilst he was waiting to be called up, he was helping to build a bomber station and what is now Teesside Airport, also completing work at the satellite station of Croft.
Ernie trained as a Wireless Operator, where he did well with Morse Code. He did his training in February 1942. He was sent to Evanton in Scotland, where he also trained as an Air Gunner.
He flew Proctors, Whitleys, Dominies, Avro Ansons, Halifaxes, Lancasters, Liberators and had a trip in at Catalina Flying Board. Ernie flew with 635 Squadron, which was part of the Pathfinders Force.
Ernie completed 51 Operations, flying to Stettin, Chemnitz and Hanover. He was part of the Master Bomber Crew to Dorsten, Kiel, Nuremburg, Osnabruck and Heligoland.
After the war, he was in charge of flying control in India, handling the closing of a Flying Boat base and arranging for them to be returned to the UK.
Ernie left the Royal Air Force in 1946 and returned to work as a Joiner, retiring from work at the age of 78.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
635 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-24
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Catalina
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Dominie
fear
FIDO
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Operational Training Unit
P-51
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Downham Market
RAF Millom
RAF Stanton Harcourt
RAF Yatesbury
Sunderland
superstition
target indicator
training
Whitley
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/610/8879/PMillerP1501.2.jpg
f56dac581f8541f60a8ad337a85c6fce
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/610/8879/PMillerP1502.2.jpg
3c813b020292a9e12b3c53fd1df379ed
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/610/8879/AMillerP150601.1.mp3
520ae851d62c7ebbaff997e1fd396243
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Miller, Peter
P Miller
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Miller, P
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Peter Miller (3008496 Royal Air Force). He served as an air gunner and gunnery leader with 12 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PM: You, you want my name or rank?
MJ: Yeah.
MM: Name and rank. Um I’m Peter, I’m [laughs] I’m nearly as bad as you. I’m recording this for Peter Miller, who is my husband, for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 1st June 20 -
MJ: ‘15.
MM: ‘15. We’re at Wragby in Lincolnshire.
PM: When I was called up. Is that alright?
MM: Ahum.
PM: 25th of the 11th ‘43. Went to Cardington. I was only there for a week getting kitted out and such. Was sent to Skegness, my home town, to do a couple of months foot drill. I was billeted about half a mile from home. So, when in the town I was the person sent by cycle on errands. Afterwards was posted to Halton on a flight mechanics course on which I was made AC1. Leaving Halton on the 29th of the 5th ‘44 I went to Digby, Lincolnshire, 527 squadron. Enjoyed time off, such, it was a Canadian station at the time. Then being posted to Bircham Newton, Norfolk, 695 squadron who were drogue towing. After a short while there I was sent to Blackpool in November classed as a PDC from which we went to Liverpool to get a boat. A Dutch ship called the [oanvan oldabarnevoort?] which after, after a late start we caught the convoy and going down the Med at Christmas Eve sailing past Gib onto Aden, then to Ceylon to drop some, some, some people off and then back up to Bombay to a transit camp. From Bombay we went to a place called Cawnpore [Kanpur]. That was our destination - 322 MU. Spending two and a half years in Cawnpore [Kanpur], returning from Bombay on the SS Somalia landing in Liverpool for being demobbed at a transit camp just outside Blackpool early July ’47. That’s, that’s my service career.
MM: What did you think to India?
PM: It was air, do you want the aircraft I worked on?
MJ: Oh yeah. I mean, well, that’s a, that’s a nice round off way of putting things how they are but yeah where, what, what, what did you do in Bombay because it seems a long way to be having an aircraft. I mean if you -
PM: It seems like a long way to what?
MJ: It seems to be a long way to go and play with aircraft so I just wondered what you had to do there.
PM: We were servicing them.
MJ: Yeah.
PM: Um Liberators.
MM: It was a big camp wasn’t it, Peter?
PM: A very big camp. Worked on Liberators to start with. About -
MM: Did you enjoy India?
PM: About five months.
MM: Did you enjoy India?
PM: Well yes. It was alright.
MJ: I suppose it was a good place to get a suntan.
PM: Yeah. Yeah but mainly. I had almost two and a half years on Dakotas.
MJ: So you mainly worked on Dakotas.
PM: Yeah, air frames.
MJ: Air frame.
PM: Air frame fitter.
MJ: Was it, was it very busy being in India fitting or was it -
PM: We were busy.
MJ: Quiet?
PM: Of course we used to service them from all over South East Asia Command.
MJ: So, so when people think that you were um in India probably having a quieter time than most you probably, you weren’t were you? You ‘cause
PM: Oh no, we weren’t living it up.
MJ: No. I mean that’s what people would think. I mean
PM: Yeah.
MJ: That’s what I’m saying. A lot of people don’t associate India with the RAF do they?
PM: Yeah. We weren’t living it up.
MJ: No. So, so how did you, I imagine it was very hot over there was it? Or -
PM: Very hot.
MJ: So -
MM: And you went up in the hills didn’t you on your leave -
PM: Pardon?
MM: You enjoyed going up into the hills didn’t you? On leave.
PM: We used to get on, we used to get our normal leave but also we had a, we used to go on hill parties, a month, probably fifty or sixty used to go by train to the foothills and then up by wagons to the place we spent the, spent the leave, the holiday. I had my twenty first birthday in Darjeeling.
MJ: That must have been interesting.
PM: Yeah. It was alright [laughs]. But the other places were, were very fair. They used to take us as far as they could by train, Then we had to go on, on wagons further up.
MJ: Did -
PM: We used to go by train to Darjeeling. Pre, pre, pre-war I think the moneyed folks had taken Darjeeling over and they weren’t all that keen on us blokes out there going to Darjeeling but er we made them happy.
MJ: Did um -
PM: But that’s a lovely spot that.
MJ: So even though the work was hard it was quite a nice place to be.
PM: Yeah. But, but regarding, regarding the weather it, it was very hot. During the hot season we used to go to work in the morning. There for seven and we used to work while one and after 1 o’clock the time was our own.
MJ: It was too hot to work?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: So, so, so in a way you were working nights really?
PM: [laughs] But we were we’ve had everything done I think. There was, it was a very big camp. There was three villages on the camp.
MJ: Was, was it more than just RAF then?
PM: Pardon?
MJ: Was it more than just RAF?
PM: Just RAF.
MJ: So -
PM: Yeah.
MM: There were locals. The villagers were locals.
PM: Local villagers. They were on, on the side -
MJ: Side.
MM: Doing your washing for you.
PM: Well they used to, they were our bearers and things were alright until the war finished.
MJ: What happened then?
PM: Until the Jap war finished. And then Pakistan and India were having a go at one another.
MJ: So you got stuck in the middle.
PM: Well more or less. We wanted to get home. They held, well, we believed they held our demob up for a while.
MJ: Why because of the conflict between the two -
PM: Well, in case there was going to be. Nothing happened. We got on the boat and came home.
MJ: So that, that was a better deal than you thought.
PM: Yeah. One of the biggest laughs we got was when we got to Liverpool on the way home. We were getting off the boat and a jet went over. Never seen a jet.
MJ: No.
PM: Only heard about them. You should have heard the cheer that went up.
MJ: That must have been, so you were probably one of the first people to see a jet flying.
PM: Yeah. In Liverpool.
MJ: You don’t -
PM: Vampire.
MM: Yeah.
[Tape paused].
PM: The cold season out there -
MJ: Yeah.
PM: Is about like this.
MJ: So it’s like having summer in the winter is it?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: So did you, you got warm -
PM: The, the snag is um these blokes that’s been in, in the desert and that, they reckon it goes stone cold at night. Not India. The sun, the sun sets and that’s it. Nothing else. Then the sun comes up and it’s daylight again and you’re getting warmer.
MJ: Yeah. So did you find you had to do more work in the winter per se or, or is it ‘cause, ‘cause the engine, or did you have to sort of -
PM: Yeah, in the, in the cold season we’d probably work another hour a day.
MJ: That, that doesn’t sound a lot but I imagine in those sorts of heats everything buckles including yourself does it?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: I mean, did, did you have to bring in, how did you get everything to where you were ‘cause you were saying you didn’t have any transport as such.
PM: When, when the war finished we, we were, they were sending in um Liberators to our place for scrap. We had a colossal scrapheap there. They were sending these Liberators there because - I don’t want it recorded because -
MJ: No it’s alright.
PM: Yeah well what we heard was that the Yanks wouldn’t take them back as returned lease-lend.
MJ: Well I mean that -
PM: And we just had to get rid of them but we weren’t allowed to sell them. That’s, that’s all we heard. They were wheeling them down to salvage and there was about seventy or eighty Libs there when I got posted home but on other places there was more Libs.
MJ: So I mean -
PM: And they just started destroying them. Took anything that, everything that was any use off the Libs and then, I can’t remember which station it was but there was one station in India was, had started to destroy the Libs. I, I don’t know what, well anybody that was in the RAF on aircraft would say it’s easier to build one then take one to bits. They um they took all instruments that were of any use out.
MJ: Right.
PM: Dinghies, first aid, everything like that. Armoury. All that out and then they took them onto the scrap, down to the scrapyard and drained all the oil out, out the engines and started the engines up and ran them flat out until they went bang.
MJ: So that they couldn’t be used again.
PM: No use whatsoever.
MJ: You know if -
PM: And then they recommended that what you did was have a, have a wagon or tractor fastened to the front of them and drive the tail unit up against a wall or something like that to break them up. Anything that’s riveted you see you can’t get it to bits by, by just undoing it.
MJ: It was built to last so -
PM: But that’s, that’s how it was but there was, there was about seventy at Cawnpore [Kanpur] when I came home that, that hadn’t been touched. Well, I say hadn’t been touched they’d been stripped but hadn’t been damaged.
MJ: I don’t think that was just yourself. I’ve heard things go, you know, because it’s hard to trans. Do you think it was hard to transport the stuff back? I -
MM: Distance.
MJ: You think -
PM: But the –
MJ: I would have thought it would be the pure economics of getting something, it was more expensive to -
PM: If the Yanks had taken them back they could have flown them back.
MJ: Do you think so?
PM: Yeah. I’m sure. They flew them there they could have flown them back.
MJ: Did, did any of the, anything else get left behind? Was it just the planes? Just, everyone leaves everything behind or did you bring most of it back?
PM: Well I don’t know what happened to them at Cawnpore [Kanpur] because they were still there when I left but there was a reunion at Cawnpore [Kanpur]. I was going on it but I got a new [motor?] and I couldn’t go and er the chaps said that the Indian air force wouldn’t let them anywhere near the salvage.
MJ: They wouldn’t let them anywhere near salvage. Well I’m surprised it’s still there.
PM: Yeah. They wouldn’t let them anywhere near salvage.
MM: But you used to go swimming didn’t you? You had a pool.
PM: Oh we’d go swimming. There was a swimming pool on the camp.
MM: A swimming pool and that. You enjoyed that.
MJ:: More than I can do.
MM: I can’t swim.
MJ: Yeah.
MM: So I mean there was some good times wasn’t there?
PM: Oh yes we had some good times.
MM: Good times. Friends. Lots of laughs.
PM: Off the camp mainly, the good times.
MM: Used to go down to one of the places nearby didn’t you? Villages, towns whatever you called it.
PM: Oh we used to go in, in to Cawnpore [Kanpur] itself.
MM: Yeah.
PM: The city
MJ: Well you say it’s a city. Was it sort of like -
MM: How big?
MJ: Was it a big place or –
PM: Oh it was a big place -
MJ: ‘Cause I mean -
PM: The city was. Yeah. The actual RAF camp was called, oh God - Chakeri.
MJ: Oh right. I thought -
PM: It was about four mile out of Cawnpore [Kanpur] but Cawnpore [Kanpur] was a city and we used to call the camp Cawnpore [Kanpur]. It was always Cawnpore [Kanpur].
MJ: Um maybe -
PM: Where were you stationed? Cawnpore [Kanpur].
MM: But you used to have meals didn’t you, in the city, when you went out?
PM: You what?
MM: You used to go for meals didn’t you? In the city went out -
PM: Oh could do. Yeah. Go in to the city. But we were only allowed in one part of the city. They um it was out of bounds to us.
MJ: It’s er so -
PM: It was, it was our military that put it out of bounds to us. They wouldn’t, wouldn’t let us in the -
So it wasn’t inflicted. It wasn’t, you weren’t put out of bounds by the city itself. It was the hierarchy of the military itself.
PM: Yeah. Yeah.
MJ: Saying you couldn’t go to certain parts.
PM: That’s it. Yeah.
MJ: Ah and did you, could you go out of uniform or did you have to be in uniform?
PM: We was, we were out of uniform most of the time. I mean when we used to go to work in a morning, 7 o’clock in the morning, you’d have a, a pair of shorts on, socks and shoes, bush hat and sunglasses and we used to go to work like that and at 1 o’clock when we, when we finished work we used to walk, we didn’t march back or anything. We used to walk back in groups, probably call at the swimming pool on the way back, used to go back and have lunch and then just loaf about.
MJ: Well I imagine it’s, it’s too hot to do anything else at that time. I mean -
PM: It was a funny old time.
MJ: Yeah I can agree with you there. You –
[Tape paused]
MM: Yeah.
PM: About the same height as I am now.
MM: Six foot.
PM: Weighed seven and a half stone.
MM: Rather slim.
PM: I got a demob suit and I kept my best blue. And I came home. The demob suit was slightly too big for me. ‘You’ll grow out of it’, that was that you see, which I did. Within, within a month my blue didn’t fit me. I didn’t care ‘cause I chucked it away and my demob suit was dead tight. I had to collect all the, all the family clothing coupons together and go and get measured for a suit, ‘Make it plenty big enough’ and I stopped growing then [laughs]. So I got one suit big and the other, other two too small.
MJ: So most people stopped growing and you took that many years to grow-
MM: His mother’s cooking that was. Put the weight on you. [laughs] Didn’t it?
PM: Yeah.
MM: Your mum’s cooking -
PM: Yeah.
MM: Yeah. Built you up again.
PM: My mother was in the first war.
MM: First World War.
PM: In the RAF. In Germany.
MJ: [That’s what?]
PM: Yeah. In the Royal Flying Corp.
MM: As it was then. Yeah.
MJ: So you inherited the job did you?
MM: Must have done.
PM: Yeah.
PM: When, when you were on about servicing, servicing aircraft we had to be there, we were in the hangars for 7 o’clock in the morning but if there were any aircraft either stuck outside or in the hangar that were going out you checked the tyre pressures before the sun got on them because you never know what the tire pressure would be after about an hour in the sun out there.
MM: And of course they couldn’t fly them till they’d got your little signature could they?
PM: Hmmn?
MM: You couldn’t fly them till they got your little signature.
PM: Oh no couldn’t. Well I was one of a team. I was the air frame rigger um on a Liberator four engines so there’d be four engine fitters, instruments, wires um guns and turrets all had to be checked and signed for before the pilot could have it.
MJ: How long did that take?
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: How long did that take?
PM: Well I mean if the aircraft was, was, was alright, if it had come out of the hangar after, after a major service it would be taken out on a test flight. One of each trade would go up with him if it was a bomber. Go up with him and you’d fly around and everything was alright. Come back. You’d check up again. Then before it flew again tomorrow it had to be serviced because between flights inspections on RAF aircraft if it, if an aircraft came, came up from London and landed on your airport there would be a between flights inspection before it could go again.
MJ: Oh I didn’t know that.
PM: Yeah.
MJ: How often did that happen?
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: Did that happen regularly?
PM: That was it. Between flights inspection. And being, being a rigger, that’s what I was, they were the last to sign the 700. The 700 was the aircraft manual and every, everybody that was concerned with anything on the aircraft had to sign and the rigger was the last one to sign because he was responsible for um the petrol cap being loose. Nothing, nothing to do with him normally. The um the blokes driving the petrol bowsers used to tighten them up but it was, it was his aircraft and he had to do something about it. So he used to tighten, tighten it up and any, any little panel that was loose he’d secure the panels and that before he signs and until he signed they couldn’t go anywhere.
MJ: Did you have a team of riggers or was it just you per plane?
PM: What?
MJ: Was it just you on one plane or did you have a few?
PM: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
MJ: So -
PM: Didn’t, didn’t do a half a dozen planes. Just, just the one plane.
MJ: Yeah but did you work as a rigger on your own or did you have someone helping you?
PM: Was, was
MM: Was there more than one rigger on each plane?
PM: No. Only one rigger.
MM: Ahum.
PM: Yeah.
MJ: So that’s a lot of rivets.
MM: Ahum check them [laughs].
PM: Yeah well the aircraft, the framework of the aircraft and everything in general was alright. It was day to day um events um tyres and things like that. Brakes slipping. All those sort of things.
MJ: Do you think you had more trouble because it was hotter there than most would have?
PM: Of course being a rigger brakes were my job as well. [laughs]
MM: You said when you went to Halton it was a case of half of them for engines half of them for airframes wasn’t it?
PM: Yeah.
MM: So it just depends which side of the room you were on [laughs] you were telling me.
PM: [laughs] Yeah.
MM: You had some fun down there at Halton didn’t you?
PM: You what?
MM: Had some fun at Halton.
PM: Halton. Yeah. It was um water shortage. Halton camp is on a hill. The hill, the hill is that far and high that there’s two parade grounds on the hill.
MJ: Two?
PM: Two parade grounds on the hill. You go through the gates, you go up and, oh from here to the bridge there’s the bottom of the parade ground and it goes back into the hills and you carry, you carry on up the hill there and about, about another twenty, thirty foot up there’s another parade ground. It was a hell of a camp Halton was. It was a, um what’s it -
MM: Training?
PM: Oh God.
MM: Officer’s training do you say?
PM: No.
MM: No.
PM: Weren’t officers. They -
MM: Cadets.
PM: When you join, you join the RAF you -
MM: Cadets?
PM: You was a member. I was a member of the air force but I was only a sort of a temporary member but I, I, I didn’t sign on for ten years or owt like that but all the regulars they, they were right under the thumb. By hell they were.
MJ: So you think it was different for you. Was it ‘cause you -
PM: Yeah.
MJ: Because you were sort of part time if you like.
PM: Yeah.
MJ: For a better word.
PM: I liked Halton. It was a nice camp.
MM: Taught you how to shoot there didn’t there?
PM: Hmmn?
MM: Taught you how to shoot there didn’t they?
PM: Yeah.
MJ: This is um -
MM: One poor chap. Everybody dashed because -
PM: We had two, we had two Jewish lads -
MJ: Yeah.
PM: By God they were dim [laughs] and er they, they, they were on a, on a rigger’s course but everything, everything went wrong with them. On one day we had um rifle training so went up on the, up on the bus up the hill and there was um the targets. Perhaps six or seven targets.
MJ: Right.
PM: And a wall, a wall just below them and behind, behind the wall there was a trench so the blokes, blokes up there looking after, looking after the targets they were, they were safe and you had ten rounds and you just, you had your ten rounds and you got in front of one of, one of the targets and that and you’d been told how to fire them and everything. The corporal would shout, ‘Fire.’ And then down there on the range there used to be a flag on a pole come out and he used to stick on to the target where, where the bullet had gone through, if it had gone through. Well these two Jewish lads they couldn’t even hit the target never mind [laughs] and there was everybody else had to get off and let them pick their own target and everything. Our corporal was on the phone to them down there and, ‘Right. Fire. Take your time.’ Bang. Flag went like that. Bang. Next time it went [beuuuu]. Phone rang. Corporal said, ‘What’s the matter?’ He said, ‘He hit my mate.’ He’d, he’d hit his tin hat. Hit his tin hat. This bullet and had gone off his tin hat.
MJ: So he was safe though?
PM: Yeah.
MM: Most of them.
PM: And then we had hand grenades. There was, there was this wall. All sandbanks and that and over the other side of the wall about there, there was a, there was a hole and behind this wall there was another wall and everybody used to get behind that wall and the corporal used to bring one bloke around and show him, show him everything, make sure he, he was holding the grenade right, then he used to toss it over to go in the hole. Everybody else was doing alright and this one he dropped the grenade the other side just on the top and it rolled down so the corporal grabbed hold of this bloke, pushed him down and more or less sat on him. Bang. ‘That was close wasn’t it?’ the corporal said. And, and, we, we went up into the, up the hills. Sten guns. They were deadly you know. If you dropped a sten gun it’d bounce about all over the place till it emptied and [laughs] there was two corporals that had never, never met these two. ‘Watch them. We know what we’re doing.’ Corporals, ‘Alright.’ Showed them how to go on and everything. Give these two a sten gun each, got them to load them, ‘Don’t do anything. We’ll have you one at a time so you come with me.’ So he fired. Nowhere near the target or anything like that but he got shot of the, the ammo. The second one went, spun around, he says to the corporal, ‘It won’t fire’ pointing it at the corporal. [laughs] God. He said, ‘Stand still. Let go of the trigger. Put it down.’ If there hadn’t been anybody else around he would have clouted him around the side of the earhole with the sten. Anyway, they got rid of them. I don’t know where they went to but they were no good as, no good on engines or airframes or anything like that. They were completely useless, the pair of them.
MM: They were only young though you see weren’t they? Eighteen and a half.
PM: Yeah they’d only be just over eighteen.
MM: That’s what I mean. Today –
PM: Yeah.
MM: They’re at school aren’t they?
MJ: Yeah. So it’s surprising you’re here.
MM: Yeah.
PM: Yeah.
MM: Then he come back to Digby, Lincolnshire.
PM: Eh?
MM: You enjoyed Digby in Lincolnshire didn’t you?
PM: Yeah.
MM: No calamities there?
PM: No. Come back to Digby.
MM: You used to go in to Lincoln didn’t you?
PM: Yeah. Used to go in to Lincoln.
MM: On time off.
PM: It was a Canadian station. Everything underground.
MJ: Underground?
PM: Eh?
MM: Underground.
MJ: Everything underground?
PM: Everything was built underground. It was a radio and radar station. We didn’t, we didn’t know that when we were stationed there but, but they used to work underground.
MJ: That’s -
PM: At Digby. It was good station. It was a Canadian station.
MJ: Was that better than the RAF ones?
PM: Well, they were better supplied than what we were.
MM: Food was good [laughs] Yeah.
PM: Yeah a lot better supplied.
[Tape paused]
PM: We were all, all air frame fitters and one of the station aircraft, we got two Dakotas belonging to the station. One had gone to Lahore.
MJ: Right.
PM: From our place and um next morning they were refuelling it and the chap drove the petrol bowser with the dipstick sticking out and tore the underside of the wing. Well that was it you see. He didn’t just tear the surface of the wing he, he buckled the main spar. So we, we had several Dakotas there that would probably never fly again and using them as spares and got hold of, got hold of my mate we did and get a, get a mainplane from, from salvage. Give him, give him all the gen on this one aircraft, ‘Go and, go and check if it’s alright.’ So he come back he said, ‘Yeah it’s alright.’ He said ‘Right. The three of you,’ he says, ‘You Miller’ and what his name, ‘Go and fetch it off.’ And we took, we took the crane down with us and we got the, got the trestles and everything and the jacks underneath it’s wing and we disconnected the wing and took it away completely from the engines you see. You’ve got the two engines there and a centre section between them and the fuselage but beyond the engines that’s the outer so we got that and we got a Queen Mary. You know the Queen Mary’s, we used? The um -
MJ: Ahum?
PM: The long, the long low loaders. Very wide, ten foot wide, that the RAF used to drive around you’ve seen them there their low loaders haven’t you? They’re called the Queen Mary’s. They’re ten, ten foot wide and during the war if, if you had to take anything with, with a Queen Mary through, through a town you had a police escort and they’d take you the best way through the town because of, because of the width of the vehicle. And we loaded this, loaded this mainplane and all the gear we wanted and everything and we cleared off to Lahore. The three of us. It took us three days to get there. Close on four hundred mile.
MJ: What were the -
PM: Well the roads in India were just like the roads down to the villages here and we got there and this Warrant Officer [Pryor?] said, ‘Goodness I’m pleased to see you lot.’ He said, ‘Get on with it.’ So we took, took this mainplane off and they carted it off to salvage there and um they got all the gear there, got all the gear and everything but they wouldn’t let them touch it.
MJ: Why was that?
PM: So we, we had to do it you see. The plane belonged to us so we, we, we got the mainplane off and everything, put the other one up got it all, all bolted in. Everything. Control cables, electrics, everything and got hold of Taf Bevan, ‘Right. Fly it.’
MJ: How long did that take you?
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: How long did that take you?
PM: Well three days overall. ‘Fly it.’ He says, ‘Alright. Sign.’ So we signed for it and everything. The warrant officer, the err engineering officer at whatsit, he said, ‘You’ve done a very good job you blokes have.’ The CO was there as well. At Lahore. He was, he was there as well. He said, ‘It looks very, very nice,’ he says. He said, ‘I’ll get on to,’ Oh I don’t know the name of our CO. He said, ‘I’ll get on to him and tell him what a good job you’ve done.’ And we went up with Taf and he, he said, ‘Nothing wrong with this. It’s alright.’ Taf Bevan, he was a bloody Welshman. We never did find out his name. His first name. Never. And he was a warrant officer. He wouldn’t, he wouldn’t take a commission. He just wanted to stay non-commissioned.
MJ: Did he say why?
PM: Warrant officer.
MJ: Yeah. Did he say why he didn’t want to take a commission?
PM: He said, ‘I don’t want to be with that crowd stuck in the officer’s mess and that. Better off in the sergeant’s mess.’ He said, ‘I’m away next morning.’ We said, ‘You’re bloody well not without us mate’ and we transferred the um the Queen Mary to Lahore and climbed in the Dak with him and flew home. Thirty minutes. [laughs]
[Tape paused]
PM: Now can’t you? Between you?
MJ: I think so. You should be able to.
PM: You just, you know, well why not do that?
MJ: Did you -
PM: What about that? [Oh bought]
MJ: Yeah. People don’t think that so that’s why your lifestyle is different to todays because people don’t realise what you did. I mean so -
MM: Things have changed so much haven’t they? So much.
PM: I know we were on a test flight one day with Taf and um Taf used to let us take control for a while. He used to sit there but he knew what was happening and everything and one of the blokes he said, ‘Do you want it Taf?’ Taf says, ‘No.’ He says, ‘Just carry on.’ He got it lined up. It was about three mile out from the end of the runway. ‘Go on. You’re alright.’ He said, ‘Shall I land it?’ ‘No you bloody well won’t land it’ [laughs] He said, ‘I’d be the laughing stock of the bloody sergeant’s mess. Come out.’
MJ: Yeah.
PM: We used to, on a Dakota there’s a cockpit and there’s a cabin and it’s the full length of the aircraft near enough. You go in, you go in the double doors.
MJ: Right.
PM: And you go up to the, to another door and that that’s the control. There’s navigator, radio operator, two pilots and we used to, about three, four of us used to get up near the door and Taf would be sat there you know, nodding away there to himself and that. ‘Right. Now.’ And we’d run to the other end to the tail end [laughs]. ‘Come up here you lot.’
MM: He knew what you was doing?
PM: We, we’d run to the tail end.
MM: Yeah and made it, realised.
PM: [Climb?]
MM: Yeah.
MM: Realised what you were. You had a laugh at East Kirkby didn’t you?
PM: Yeah.
MM: They were doing a Dakota up at East Kirkby.
PM: Yeah. They were.
MM: You went out to, to have look and you said to the lads there, ‘Can I have a look inside it.’ I think you managed to get in it didn’t you?
PM: Yeah.
MM: And anyway you said to them.
PM: ‘Do you know anything about them?’ I said, ‘Yeah a little bit. I used to be on them in the air force way back.’ ‘Bloody hell. When?’ I said, ‘Oh I came out in ‘47.’ ‘God, I weren’t even bloody well born then.’
MM: Made you feel very, very old didn’t it duck [laughs] yeah.
PM: They were a lovely aircraft to work on. Dakota is. No trouble whatsoever.
MJ: Didn’t bite back.
PM: Hmmn?
MJ: Didn’t bite back.
MM: No. [laughs]
PM: They were no trouble at all. Used to fly around with the doors off.
MJ: Why?
PM: You see there’s, there was a passenger door and a cargo door on them.
MJ: Yeah.
PM: Take one or the other or both doors off. It didn’t half whistle and that inside the aircraft.
MM: Was there any reason to take the doors off though?
PM: No. No.
MM: No.
PM: You either take it off before you fly or when you land. You don’t take it off while you’re flying.
MM: No, presume not.
MJ: Was there any reason why you took them off when you flew? Or was it just because they were in the way?
PM: The doors come inwards. Not outwards.
MJ: So -
MM: What reasons did you take them off for?
PM: Eh?
MM: What reason did you take them off for?
PM: Well.
MM: Can you remember?
PM: No particular reason.
MM: Oh. Good job it wasn’t raining.
PM: During the war, on the Dakotas, along the top of the fuselage there was little windows about that size, along. So that when they were carrying troops they could open one of those windows and fire at any aircraft that was attacking them.
MM: Ahum.
PM: If they were carrying troops.
MJ: Really?
PM: Yeah. Yeah, I’m not kidding.
MM: Never heard of it.
MJ: I wouldn’t have thought of that one.
PM: I’m not kidding. Liberators, you know, you used to get in and out through the bomb, bomb bay. Get in and out through the bomb bay. The bomb doors, the bottom of the Lib is only about that far off the ground and the bomb doors go up like that and there’s a cat walk right through. The cat walk goes to, to the rear where there’s a mid-upper gunner and two, two [waist] gunners. One each side. And a rear gunner.
MJ: So you always had -
PM: And if, if you go forward up a couple of steps you get on to the flight deck where the crew, the air crew go. You, if they’re flying around and they opened the bomb doors there isn’t a bloody soul would dare go across that cat walk. From the back to the front or the front to the back. There’s not a soul would dare go. It’s, it’s perfectly safe, there’s no, no danger whatsoever and there’s plenty to hold on to. Hold on to all the bomb racks.
MJ: But no one would do it.
PM: Nobody would go in. No one would do it.
[Tape paused]
MJ: So what was this about Fred then?
PM: He, he used to go out first thing in a morning, he’d go to bed at night about nine, but first thing in the morning, probably 5 o’clock he’d cross to the cookhouse to get his porridge before they put sugar in it. Yeah. He wanted salt in his you see. Yeah. Well he was always messing about with, with animals and that and he went out one morning for a walk and there was a narrow path, trees at each side and that. He was approaching this corner when around the corner there come this panther. He says, ‘It stopped and I stopped, of course.’ He said, and its tail was going like that. He said, ‘And we stood there for about three quarters of an hour. Seemed like it.’ He said, ‘And I thought if that bloody thing comes at me there’s a tree just behind me. I can leap behind hopefully.’ He said, ‘I daren’t look around.’ He said, ‘I was weighing all this up’ he said and all of a sudden the panther put the foot down on the ground, spun around and shot off back the way it came,’ he said, ‘ And I shot off the way I came.’ He said, ‘We were about twenty five miles apart in ten minutes.’ He, he was, he was always doing something like that. Always messing about with, with animals. There was an empty cookhouse and he went and there was a wild cat in the bloody cookhouse. ‘I’ll have that.’ He went in there. This wildcat was flying around the walls. He said it was going that fast it was on the walls. He said, ‘I didn’t know what to do with it,’ he said, but the windows, the windows were all shut except one. He said it took a flying leap at that and crashed straight through the glass and everything and away it went. He said it went out, missed, missed the veranda and everything and landed out in the middle of the road. [laughs] He said, ‘I wasn’t frightened of it.’ [laughs]
MM: And who slept on a snake? One of you lads found a snake under his mattress.
PM: Yeah. Yeah. Rum lad that.
MM: Who was that? Who found a snake under his mattress?
PM: Oh er who was it? One of the other lads. Fred said, ‘I’ll get that out for you.’ He outed it. ‘Cause you see if you found a snake out there you had to find the other bugger. Nearly always travelled in pairs.
MJ: Do they?
PM: Ahum we had a, we had a snake in our billet one night. We got it and finished it off and we were looking around for its mate. Couldn’t find its mate anywhere so that was it. Wasn’t going under the mossie nets. Next morning this bloke got up and er there was this snake laid, laid in there. It had been crushed. He’d crushed it. You see the beds out there were wood. They were just a wooden frame and then there was like string across and then what they called a dhurry. It was like, just like an [asbestos] sheet the size of your bed. When you went anywhere you know on guard at night or something like that you took whatever you wanted in your dhurry. Got it all wrapped up in the dhurry. Then you had your mossie net and your mossie net was you had four, four bamboo canes that used to go inside the legs across the back of the bed like that and your mossie net went on the top and your mossie net was shaped, was shaped just like, just like a box. The box was down, the box was that way up and the things, the sides of the net came down you see and these, these four bamboo canes they went up behind, behind the leg and up the inside of the nets so it was all sprung out. That was how your mossie nets went. There were times when we’ve taken the mossie nets down and inverted them and then put the bed inside, inside it.
MM: But this snake that you was talking about.
PM: It was an open top.
MM: This snake you was talking about was underneath this here mattress thing wasn’t it?
PM: Underneath the dhurry.
MM: Yeah.
PM: Yeah.
MM: I didn’t realise he’d been sleeping on it all night.
PM: No. No.
MM: No. Oh horrible things.
PM: Well it was dead anyway. Fred says, ‘Poor little bugger. You’ve been laid on it all night.’
MJ: I’d like to thank Mr Miller on behalf of the International Bomber Command project on the 1st of January no oh June 2015 for his interview and, and for myself I’d like to thank him. My name’s Michael Jeffery and this is the end of the interview.
MM: My name is Mavis Miller, recording this for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 1st of June 2015. We live at Horncastle Road, Wragby, Lincolnshire. Yeah. I was at Minting, school at Minting, during the war. We lived about four miles from Bardney aerodrome so we saw a lot of the RAF lads and the WAAFs who used to come to the Sebastopol at Minting. My father also worked at the Bardney aerodrome so we were involved quite a bit. He always used to come home very distressed when, at times, the bombers would come back with the air force lad’s uniforms having to be burned because they were blood stained. Another small happening during the war was I was with my friends down Hungerham Lane about a half a mile from my home when we saw two of our fighters firing at this German fighter and it was brought down at Baumber, again only about three or four fields away from where we were. Unfortunately, no one got out the plane. We were told that it went up in flames. The farm workers couldn’t get anywhere near it but I was pleased to get home that night safe and sound. I think that’s about the end of my experiences.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command Historical Unit I’d like to thank Mrs Miller for her stories of when she was a child and on the June the 1st 2015 I’d like to end the interview.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Peter Miller
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-01
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMillerP150601
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:02:55 audio recording
Description
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Peter was called up in November 1943 and after basic training was sent to RAF Halton to be trained as a flight mechanic. Whilst there he had several dangerous incidents during small arms training.
Initially posted to 527 Squadron, which was Canadian, at RAF Digby and then to 695 squadron at RAF Bircham Newton working on drogue towing aircraft.
Posted overseas, he arrived at RAF Chakeri near Kampur where he worked on servicing B-24 and C-47 aircraft for South East Asia Command. He recalls that as an airframe mechanic he had to sign the Form 700 certifying that all the other trades had carried out their servicing correctly.
The local town was largely off-limits and only certain parts were allowed to be visited. The weather was very hot and in the summer hill parties were sent to the hills to escape the heat. Peter spent his 21st birthday at Darjeeling. When hostilities ceased the spent its time dismantling and scrapping B-24s aircraft. Whilst India was partitioned, Peter's demobilisation was postponed in case of tensions between India and Pakistan.
After two and a half years he was sent home via Liverpool, where he saw his first jet, and was demobilised in July 1947.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1947-07
1943-11
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
India
India--Kānpur
India--Darjeeling
Pakistan
Contributor
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Terry Holmes
B-24
C-47
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
fuelling
ground crew
petrol bowser
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Chakeri
RAF Digby
RAF Halton
service vehicle
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/638/8908/AShawWH151027.1.mp3
14ff9f7e0fd3903f2c73a2d0175fe797
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Shaw, William Horace
W H Shaw
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Shaw, WH
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with William Horace Shaw (1892171 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 37 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-10-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: Right, I’m with Bill Shaw, who was wireless air gunner, operator air gunner, and we are in Reading, and we’re going to talk about his life and, in the RAF and what he did afterwards. So Bill – er the date today is the 27th of October 2015. Bill, could you start with the earliest days with your family, where were they, where were you born, what do you remember about the early experiences?
WS: Well I was born in a London hospital, in Whitechapel, 26th of February 1924. My mother was living then in Kenning [?] Street Road, her father was a farrier and dyers and cleaners business. Soon after I was born, I was just thinking it must have been something like fifteen months, they moved to Layton and mother opened up a shop for dying and cleaning. My father then was out of work because by that time there was the depression in 1926 [emphasis]. He did get a job, I can’t remember in very much detail of that time, he did get a job in Sutton, Surrey, on the parks department there because he was a professional gardener, and travelled backwards and forwards for a time, and then they got a house in Sutton which he rented from the council. And I moved to Sutton in 1929 when I was about five, just before I was five. I can’t remember the details exactly, but soon after we went to Sutton, I caught diphtheria which was quite a killer disease in those days. There was a lot of controversy that I got told about after I’d got better was the fact that the doctor wanted me to go to hospital and mother wouldn’t agree to go, me to go into hospital, mainly because back in the First World War when my father was in France, their first baby died of diphtheria when she was thirteen, and as a result of that Mum and Dad wouldn’t let me go into hospital [emphasis] so Mother had to nurse me at home. All I can remember about that is that I had to lie flat on my back, I wasn’t allowed to sit up at all, it was a liquid [emphasis] diet. I can just about [emphasis] remember that my sister used to sit on the stairs outside reading stories, otherwise the only thing I can remember about it was the fact that when I got better, the first time I could sit up I could look out the window and see my father picking some mushrooms in the cold frames in the nursery and brought those in, that was the first meal I’d had for a very, oh goodness knows how many weeks. Then I can’t remember how many weeks it was, but – then I went to school as usual in Sutton at the infants, and junior school. And then when I was about twelve I suppose it was, I went to secondary school in Wallington, had some success and some failures there [laughs]. Cricket and rugby was the two games I played. I made a stained glass window in the art class which was quite a feat – I often wonder what happened to that. And then takes you round to 1939, we broke up for usual, as usual for the summer holidays. I went to stay with my sister who was by that time married and living with a family up in Gobowen on the border between Shropshire and Wales. I don’t know why but after a few weeks with her, I think mainly because she was expecting a baby, I went to live with an auntie in Chester [emphasis], and that part I can remember because on the Sunday morning on the 3rd of September was when war was declared. My school closed for the duration so I, unbeknownst to me I’d left school, and then I came back to Sutton for home, 1940, in April 1940, I managed to get a job with an insurance company in London. And on reflection you think what a daft place to go and start work [laughs] with the Blitz on. We went to – it was exciting times in a way. I think it was 1941 when I joined the Home Guard, and that helped me a great deal for when I was called up into the services. I didn’t think so at the time, but I think it was about when I was seventeen I had to register I think for the conscription, when you had to decide whether you wanted to, which service to go into. At that time there were rumours about pilots going on indefinite leave [CB laughs] so I thought ‘that’s a good idea,’ and I put down my name for the RAF and air crew. You didn’t get much opportunity to decide what you wanted to do in aircrew mainly because you didn’t know what went on [laughs]. I had, I was put down as a wireless operator air gunner. Then you went home again to wait for, you know, a call to arms. That was on the 24th of May 1943 that I reported to Lourdes Cricket Ground [emphasis]. We were stationed – we were billeted in some blocks of flats in Abbey Wood I think it was called, just outside Lourdes, for I think it was something like two weeks or ten days while you were kitted out. Then went on to ITW, don’t think there was anything in between. ITW was at Bridgnorth up in Shropshire, which was a town renowned for the number of pubs it had [CB laughs]. ITW – I can’t remember how long it lasted but after that you went on leave for, I suppose it was a week, maybe five days something like that. You reported then to radio school [emphasis], Number Two Radio School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire. That’s when soon after we started the radio course they decided that there was no need for the gunnery part of it so we trained as a signaller.
CB: Mm.
WS: Odd times getting home for leave and hitching lifts and that kind of thing. Qualified as a signaller. again I can’t really remember how long that course took, but as you qualified, normally you went straight on leave, but the night before we were due to go on leave, as we had two empty beds in our hut, they introduced two new intake into our hut, one of which the next morning reported sick with suspected scarlet fever, which meant we were confined to the hut straight away – food was brought in et cetera, et cetera, for about ten to twelve days again until it was confirmed whether it was scarlet fever or not, and then, as we left behind most of the course because of the scarlet fever scare, they decided we could go up to Scotland on a gunnery [emphasis] course. Now that was very good organisation because we went down into town to get onto a train, there was as far as I could remember roughly fifty, fifty five of us. We got on the train to go up to Scotland, we didn’t know whereabouts in Scotland we were going, just that we were going north, and every few miles or so we were, the carriage we were in was shunted to the sidings to let traffic go down from the north to the south. And then we push on and eventually [emphasis] although we’d left sort of first thing in the morning from Yatesbury, we got up to a place called Evanton, or Evanton [pronounced differently] in Scotland, early evening, only to find that the reason for our long journey was the fact that D-Day had started, and the traffic going from north to south was all the tanks and troops going down for the invasion. We did gunnery school – so as they changed their mind about us, we thought, we assumed that we would be due to go on Coastal Command [emphasis]. As Coastal Command, because of the duration of the trips or flights, had three wireless operator air gunners to each crew, so three of us had palled up. We left to go on leave after gunnery course. I’d arranged with my girlfriend, who I’d met before [emphasis] I went into the RAF to meet and go to stay with an aunt of hers away from the bombing. We were due to go to Stamford. We were gonna meet at Waterloo Station on the Saturday morning. I had spent [unclear] leave at home in Sutton, all ready to go to Waterloo when the knock at the doors, and a policeman had asked, had a telegram for Sergeant Shaw. And my mother took it off him and said ‘what shall I do?’ I said ‘well give it back to him and tell him I’ve gone to Stamford’ [laughs]. I thought we must get a couple of days at Stamford before they caught up with us [CB laughs]. We got up there, sat down to tea on the first day, there was a knock at the door and I heard someone say ‘Sergeant Shaw,’ and my aunt said ‘don’t know no Sergeant Shaw,’ because although she knew my Christian name [CB laughs] she didn’t know my surname [emphasis], I thought I’d better show my face [laughs]. And the, he gave me orders to report back to my unit with small kit and pay book. Pam said ‘what are you going to do?’ I said ‘well, you go down the station and find out when the last train goes and I’ll report to the transport officer’ which I did, and he said ‘ooh, well you’ve missed the last train,’ ‘cause I thought well at least we’d have one night [laughs], and the next day Pam went back to her home in Fulham in London and I went up to Scotland to report back to the unit. They, they measured my height and weighed me, and sent me back on leave [emphasis], indefinite leave. I thought ‘ooh this is nice, indefinite leave.’ That lasted three days [both laugh], and I was – had orders to go back to West Kirby which was near Birkenhead, transit camp. We were then embarked on a ship, we went up to Grenick [?] for the ship for the convoy to assemble. And I can remember one chap on the ship when we first sailed – we got out of sight of land and he said ‘oh that’s enough of that, let’s go back’ [CB and WS laugh]. The eventually we – I think we were about three weeks on the boat, we didn’t know where we were going of course, but we reckon we were going west for so many days and then we turned south for a bit and then – during the night of course you didn’t know whether you’d changed course or not, but eventually we got to Alexandria [emphasis]. We disembarked in Alexandria, that was out first real taste of overseas [emphasis] service really. Before we got off the ship there was boys, native [emphasis] boys on the quayside shouting up for white money, and there was troops, it was mainly an army ship just ‘cause there was only about fifty of us in RAF, and the, there was a Scottish regiment, or Scottish company, and the, used to throw coppers in, which of course was no good to the boys because they couldn’t see them in the muddy water [emphasis]. So when they [laughs] used to dive in after the money, they used to shout ‘bloody Scotsmen’ [both laugh]. And that was then my initiation into overseas service [laughs]. And we disembarked, went on a train down to a place called Ismailia [emphasis], to a transit camp. I can’t tell you how long we stayed there but then we went on another [emphasis] train up to Jerusalem. We got to Jerusalem – there was an officer in the room there which interviewed us and we were still the three of us together still, and he said ‘where did you do your ASV course?’ We hadn’t a clue what he was talking about, we hadn’t, never done that. So he said ‘you should have done that before you came out,’ he said ‘you’re no use to us.’ And with that we went back to the billet, which in Jerusalem was referred to as the ‘German hospital.’ We just went in there, waiting for orders. We got, a couple of us got chatting to the guard which was a local sort of people, I don’t know exactly what they were, they weren’t Arabs but – we were chatting to them, they were well educated with English, and one weekend he said he won’t, wouldn’t be there because he was going to his brother’s wedding in Bethlehem. And he said ‘you could come if you like, we go on the Friday.’ We couldn’t get away on the Friday so he instructed us how to get there on the Saturday which was a bus, Arab bus. We didn’t realise at the time that Jerusalem was up on a hill and Bethlehem was up on another hill, so the bus went down [emphasis] into the valley and up the other side. There was this road just covered in stones – it was quite a journey [emphasis] looking down into the valley as we were going round the bends [laughs]. His brother who was the bridegroom met us when we got to Bethlehem, showed us round, and the procedure then was the bridegroom, with a few others, went from house to house where the men were all sitting round. A couple of the women brought in a tray with little drinks on, brandy or Arac [?]. We didn’t know Arac was prohibited to the servicemen but it was rather nice, followed by, which amazed us, was a tin of Macintosh’s Toffees [both laugh]. So you got a little drink and a toffee [CB laughs]. And we went to around about five or six houses I suppose in Bethlehem. Then we were shown to another room where we could sort of lounge about. Food was brought in on a big circular tray, placed in the middle of the room, and our guide there, the sentries from the hospital looking after us said ‘you can eat that, don’t eat that, don’t eat that,’ and there was various dishes all on this table, and he pointed at what not to eat on [laughs] this table. And then we went to the Church of Nativity for the wedding. We were shown round the Church of Nativity, the manger and so forth, and the party went on in another house after the wedding. The bride as far as I can remember sat on a chair in a little dais, and all the guests went up and pinned money onto her dress. Of course it was nothing we do, we were just observers [emphasis] more or less, the party went on from the Saturday night into the Sunday, but we couldn’t stop all that long because we had to get back on the busses, back to billets. So that was the first time we’d seen anything of an Arab wedding. The thing that stood out in our mind then was the pews in the church were just sort of wooden benches, and we sat sort of to one side, just watching what was going on, and the baby started to cry in the middle of all the service. The women was in the same row of seats as we were, and she simply undressed her, undid her blouse to feed the baby which kept it quiet [laughs]. And we thought to ourselves, ‘just imagine that happening in England’ [CB and WS laugh]. And we went back to billet, which then came through to go to OTU Takia [?] where they were using Wellingtons for training. We did – I just can’t remember how many weeks a course went on for OTU, but on our last, we did so many circuits and bumps, so we did so many of them, but at the end of the course which consisted of cross country trips and simulated bombing on Cyprus. And the trip before last, we had a terrible storm [emphasis] while we were on the way to Cyprus, and when we were on the way back, there had been a recall signal out but I never received it because with the storm the radio was pretty useless. And the debriefing they reckon the navigator had cooked his log [?], they didn’t think that we could have got round and they reckon he’d cooked his log [?] to show that we’d got round. And the CO was going to take him off and give us another navigator, and the pilot refused to accept another navigator of an unknown quantity so to speak. The CO said ‘well you’ll have to do your cross countries again,’ so we did another set of cross countries. At the end of that we were then posted down to Shalloufa [?] the station near Suez near Egypt for conversion onto Liberators for the four engine heavy bomber. We did the conversion course on that, eventually got across to Italy and caught up with squadron. And the talk as soon as we got onto the squadron was all about the bad winter they’d had, because nothing – I think it was March by time we got there, but we, we missed that, we were in, we were under canvas of course in Italy. We did two operations [emphasis]. First one was trying to bomb a railway bridge a the north of Italy to stop the supplies coming through the tunnel in the Alps for the Germans and the second one was to bomb marshalling yards in Austria, just outside Salzburg [emphasis].
CB: Mm.
WS: Most successful, erm, that was about the end of April I should think, something like that. 1945, before we did any more operations the Germans surrendered and the hostiles ceased on the 8th of May. We then started doing more flying than we had before because the army had gone so far, so fast up to the north of Italy that they’d outstripped their supply line, and they got so many hundreds of thousands of prisoners with no supplies [emphasis], so we were flying supplies up from the south to the north of Italy. Boxes of supplies with food and rations et cetera, and also jerry cans of petrol. That went on until about the October I think it was, then we were posted back to, back to Palestine, back to Egypt, back to the Shalloufa [?] we converted onto, and I can’t remember the date, then the squadron was disbanded [emphasis]. We went, we were sent to a transit camp where we met aircrew from the other squadrons, some of which, whom we’d trained with a so forth. The procedure there was that there was a parade at eight o’clock in the morning. If your name wasn’t called out you were free to go where you liked until eight o’clock the next morning. We had a form to fill in to show, or to decide which type of ground duties you’d like, we filled three of us, there was a navigator and myself, and the two navigators and myself filled in the form with the choice of five duties. We put, so we put flying, flying, flying, flying [CB laughs] and thought we’d get called up before the CO where they sorted that out, and nothing happened for two or three days, and then our names were called out one morning, and instead of being in for the high jump we were posted to a maintenance [emphasis] unit, just outside Cairo. And then we were – pause there.
JS: Mhm, yeah.
CB: Pause?
JS: [Unclear.]
CB: Okay. We’re just pausing our tape.
[Tape paused and restarted.]
CB: So, and we’ve talked about a lot of things Bill, thank you very much, but I think it’s useful to be able to understand what the training was at various stages. So you were going to be wireless operator air gunner but only wireless operator in the end. What was the training, what did it involve?
WS: As far as I can remember, it was just a question of explaining how a radio worked for a receiver and transmitter point of view and learning the Morse code [emphasis]. The layout of the radios was sort of laid out on a table instead of in a box, it was always laid out on a table. Various wirings and the transformers and tuning, tuning veins or something wasn’t it? I can’t remember my memory’s gone. And the valves, we were shown how this valve did such and such, and this valve did such and such, and you also trained so how you could move the valves around in case one was damaged so that you could still get some sort of signal out of the set. And the same sort of thing with the trans, transmitter. It mainly as far as I can remember, learning the Morse code was the most difficult thing. The radio seemed quite straight forward, but learning the Morse code and the Q code as it was called then –
CB: What was the Q code?
WS: [Unclear]
CB: What was the Q code?
WS: Q code?
CB: What was that?
WS: You had, they’re like QDM – if you sent, if you sent out a message basically saying requesting a QDM that was meant that you wanted them to give you a magnetic course so you could then hold the key down to transmit while they picked up the signal and followed directions, and course then come back and tell you what your course was. So if you did that with two stations, you could then get a fix where the, those two courses crossed. That’s where you first flew, it took us up in the Domini [?] Rapide [emphasis], about five or six of us. That was to show whether you could stand air-worthiness, whether you were sick or frightened or so forth. And then you went on to a single engine, Proctors [emphasis] with a pilot and yourself, just local flying so you could learn how to transmit and receive in the air, and did various trips on that sort of thing. Then you had a test and on the result of that whether you qualified or not. Then you got your wings, or brevy, and then of course we went on to do the same sort of thing on the gunnery course, were you had a, an aircraft with a mid upper turret, which was an old Hampson [?], used to take off with about three I think, three, three cadets in it, and a pilot. And you rendezvous with a, another aircraft which would tell you [?] the drogue [emphasis], and used to wander round the lighthouse at, can’t remember, the north east of Scotland, and you had so many bullets each and the noses of the bullets were painted different colours so that when the drogue came back to land they could count out how many hits the red had and how many hits the green had and so forth. What happened sometimes [laughs] was the last person in to fire, instead of hitting the drogue would hit the wire that was towing the drogue and it floated out into the sea [CB and WS laugh]. So it was a wasted exercise [laughs]. But I always had quite a good eye because of, again the Home Guard going onto the army rifle ranges was a great experience for that, and the first thing we did at the gunnery school was with somebody who looked as if he was a real life old country gentleman sitting on a shooting stick with clay pigeons coming across and how to aim off with a shotgun. And he did it out, he seemed to do it without looking. I suspect he had been doing it all his life [laughs]. But then you went on to, as I say, firing air to air. I don’t think we did any air to ground I think it was all air to air firing. Where did we go from there? Believe, prior to going overseas [unclear].
CB: So prior to going abroad, you didn’t know where you were going to go at all?
WS: No.
CB: You thought you were going to Bomber Command did you?
WS: Well as we’d done a gunnery course, we, we presumed right at the beginning we were going onto bombers of some sort. I mean, it could have been night fighters. Defiants had a turret –
CB: Hmm.
WS: A radio operated turret. But as we’d done the gunnery course after they’d changed their mind and only wanted a signaller, we assumed we were going onto the Coastal Command [emphasis]. That’s where we ended up in Jerusalem, and the chaps said ‘where did you do your ASV course?’ Which I never really understood what it stood for but it was something to do with the air search or something, with this radar business you could see under – submarines if they were near the surface of the water.
CB: Mm.
WS: But that’s all I know about that. We never did that before we went over there so we had to go back to the transit camp and wait until they could sort of feed us in with the Middle East Bomber Command.
CB: What was your squadron number?
WS: Thirty-seven.
CB: And was that with you in the Middle East or did you join it in Italy?
WS: No that was – well no, we joined it in Italy because the squadron had been in the western desert right the way through North Africa –
CB: Mm.
WS: Then over to Italy, which was 1205 Group.
CB: And where were you in Italy?
WS: Just outside Foggia [?], place called Torremaggiore [?].
CB: Mhm.
WS: Which was an olive, olive grove, or had been at one time.
CB: You mentioned the two ops you did –
WS: Yeah.
CB: That was the total number of ops, was it, or did you do some other ones as well?
WS: No, no that was all we did.
CB: Mm.
WS: The hostilities ceased then.
CB: Mm. Just thinking about the crew, what was the relationship between the members of the crew? How many were there first of all?
WS: Seven, in the, in the crew of the Liberator. The, we were training on the Wellingtons you had two gunners, when you went onto the Liberator you had three gunners. So you had the pilot, engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, two gunners and the wireless operator stood in as a third gunner if it was required.
CB: Mm. And how did the crew get on?
WS: We got on very well, yes. The engineer was a Scotsman who, because he was an engineer they were always much older, they were two or three years older than the rest of us because of their engineering training, but the one we had [laughs] was quite a good engineer but he did like his whisky [CB laughs]. So [laughs] sometimes it was a job to keep him away from that. One of the gunners was also the heavy weight champion of the Middle East while we were there for the boxing, otherwise we got on. The pilot had been a van driver before he was called up, delivering groceries, the navigator had been a coal miner working down the pits [CB laughs], I’d been a clerk down in East Yorks [?] [laughs]. I can’t remember – ooh two of the gunners had been, two of the gunners had been what? I think they’d been in the RAF but remustersed [?] or transferred onto aircrew. I think they’d been on ground duties when they’d first – they were a year’s difference in age made an awful lot of difference at that time –
CB: Hmm.
WS: You were either old or not, you know [laughs]. And those in the year older than you were old.
CB: Yeah.
WS: It was – especially the engineer who was two or three years older. He was an old man [laughs].
CB: What’s this – was your particular formed in Italy, and how was that done –
WS: No –
CB: Or did you just join a crew that was short of –
WS: At OTU, where you started, at the beginning of OTU, all the aircrews of various trades, like the bomb aimer and pilot, came up from South Africa, I think the rest of us had come out from Blighty, but we were all in, so many hundreds of us in the hangar, and it was the pilot’s job then to come around amongst all these aircrew. He came up to me and said ‘would you like to fly with me?’ And I’d never met him before [laughs] so it was a why not sort of thing, you know. And then you couldn’t tell if you wanted to or not [laughs]. So you said ‘yes’ and he had to round and pick his navigator and his engineer and gunners like that, so at the end of the day he’d formed a crew [emphasis].
CB: What nationalities did you have?
WS: Erm –
CB: The pilot for example. He came up from South Africa but what – did he train there or was he actually from South Africa?
WS: He trained as a pilot in South Africa but he wasn’t –
CB: He was a Brit was he?
WS: Yeah he was English, I was English, the navigator was a Yorkshire man, there’s quite a difference there [CB and WS laugh]. Bomb aimer was a Scouse [CB laughs]. One of the other gunners was a Yorkshire man I think – I can’t remember – mid upper gunner, mid upper gunner was a Scotsman, one of the gunners came from Leicestershire somewhere, I think it was. But I suppose quite a normal span of occupations overall.
CB: Yeah.
WS: Really.
CB: Now, people’s experiences varied hugely in some people later in the war didn’t experience the same draw, draw, dramas [emphasis] that others had –
WS: Oh no –
CB: In the middle of the war perhaps.
WS: No –
CB: But in your case, what sort of excitements did you have in your flying activities? Or even on the ground?
WS: Well [laughs] the only thing I can remember stands out most is on the first operation. ‘Cause on the Liberator, the bomb doors used to – the bombs were inside the aircraft and the bombs used to go up the sides. And there was a lever which operated the bomb doors, which with the vibration of the aircraft, if they came down two or three inches, would interfere with the bomb release gear. And there was a catwalk through the aircraft with the bombs hanging over either side like that, and my job was to sit on the end of this catwalk holding this lever so it kept the doors up, out on the, on the bombing run, and I was also told to, you know, report any hang ups, and being very naïve I thought ‘oh that’s easy, I can go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.’ It dawned on me afterwards [laughs] if the bomb’s about a hundred yards apart on the ground it’s a split second up there [laughs]. So I was sitting up there [unclear] thinking ‘I’m ready,’ you know, this and this, bomb aimer said ‘bomb’s gone,’ and the bomb went down like that, the aircraft went up and I nearly fell out the bottom [CB and WS laugh].
CB: Sounds dangerous [WS laughs].
WS: And there were – you kept the bomb doors open, sitting on there for, looking for fighters coming up underneath.
CB: Mm.
WS: Until you were sort of well clear of the target. And the second trip we had to Austria was a moonlit night, and coming back you had the beautiful snow coloured mountains [laughs]. It was quite picturesque [emphasis]. There was one aircraft, single engine aircraft, I couldn’t tell you what it was, whether it was an ME109 or what I don’t know, might have been an F190, that sort of went across quite a way below us, he didn’t take any notice of him so we didn’t take any notice, you know, he didn’t take any notice of us so we didn’t take any notice of him. That was the only activity I had on that trip. On the railway bridge, that was the first trip I did – that was at the foot of the Alps, Northern Italy, where the trains coming through the tunnel in the Alps across the River Po, then the Americans, who were stationed on the other side of the airfield with Flying Fortresses used to go out during the daytime raids, and they would come back some of them shot up, so we had their intelligence and whether we were flying under them, under them. They were in control, control of the airstrip so to speak. Reports of so many hundred guns protecting this bridge and that sort of thing. And we went out at night, which the Americans thought we were mad [CB laughs]. And of course they, they were day [emphasis] gunners, they’d got not radar in those days. No, they were day gunners, so although they might hear us they couldn’t know where we were.
CB: What sort of height [emphasis] were your flying at?
WS: Bombing height was eight thousand five hundred.
CB: And the bomb load, how big?
WS: It was I think four, four one thousand pounds and eight five hundreds I think it was [unclear]. I got a couple of photographs there –
CB: Good.
WS: Of – taken by the camera automatically when the bombs burst.
CB: And how was the adjustment made for the camera to operate?
WS: I don’t know, no idea.
CB: You didn’t operate that?
WS: No, no. That was fitted in by the, sort of ground crew.
CB: Mm.
WS: Who had the height, knew what height the bombing height, height would be –
CB: ‘Cause they’d need to know the height to do it, yep.
WS: So the camera was fixed [emphasis] –
CB: Mm.
WS: On that thing. I – on one of them you could just about un, make out the river, but otherwise I, I don’t see what they could decipher from it.
CB: So both occasions, these two ops where in, in the night.
WS: Yes, yes. Mm, yeah.
CB: Okay. Changing the subject slightly, what did you learn about, or see, to do with LMF? Or did it not arise?
WS: No. We’d heard about it but no context [unclear]. Never knew anybody that was classified as that.
CB: Mm. And did you know what happened to aircrew that were accused of that?
WS: No, no. We – I suppose being oversees we got very little information from anything [laughs].
CB: Mm, mm.
WS: I don’t know whether anybody was sent back to this country –
CB: Perhaps it happened differently there.
WS: I don’t know.
CB: Okay.
WS: News, news was very late coming through.
CB: Mm. So the war ended, and you didn’t come out until 1947 –
WS: Yeah.
CB: So what did you do in the meantime?
WS: Well to start with, when the squadron first went back to Egypt before it was disbanded, I can only think that we were kept operational because of the Cold War [emphasis]. Because, because twice [emphasis] we were bombed up at that time, never really knew whether that was a real [emphasis] emergency or just something to keep the armies occupied.
CB: Mm.
WS: But, that was, that was really all that happened in Shalloufa [?] really then. I don’t think [emphasis] we did any, any other trips at that time.
CB: So you left [emphasis] really before the Israeli Palestinian hostilities gathered momentum?
WS: When we went – after disbandment when we were posted to the maintenance unit was [unclear] operative which is a pre-war station just outside Cairo. We had, there were five crews, pilot, navigator and wireless operator, and we had a marvellous time then because we were in brick built billets after being under canvas. All luxury [emphasis] yeah. And a chap – we had our own room, and the chappy next to me, I mean it was quite a room, about twelve by twelve, quite a size –
CB: Mm.
WS: Chap next door – we employed a boy and we gave something like the equivalent of roughly ten bob a fortnight I think it was, he cleaned our room, did our laundry, polished our buttons and shoes and that sort of thing. Gave us a cup of tea in the morning –
CB: Mm.
WS: All that sort of thing. We had a life of luxury.
CB: Mm.
WS: But that was about the time when – who was it, NASA [?] wasn’t it? Wanted Egypt for the Egyptians, they wanted the British out. And they got all these aircraft that they’d been using up in Palestine for training, just dumped [emphasis] in the desert, in a place which became locally as Wimpy Valley. Everybody knew Wimpy Valley, and they were bringing these aircraft in, putting them through the main, maintenance unit and then we’d test them and send, deliver them to wherever they had to go. We – the first consignment we had was fifty-two to be delivered to the French in Algiers. So where they, where they’d gone through the maintenance unit, and if there was no snakes [?] we’d rake them up to Algiers and then scrounge a lift back [laughs]. A lot of the trips we got back to Cairo were on American Dakotas.
CB: Oh.
WS: ‘Cause they seemed to have a taxi service running backwards and forwards –
CB: Right.
WS: From the North African coast. And as I say, we also took one or two up to Greece, one up to Palestine, things like that. And then we had orders to bring them back to this [emphasis] country. So that was a [laughs] that was a laugh really.
CB: What route did you take to do that?
WS: Well you see, we were a law unto ourselves at that time really. Nobody knew where we were or who we were [CB laughs]. We had a marvellous [emphasis] time. We used to go along to, from Cairo to I think it was Benin, refuel there, over to Luqa in Malta to refuel there, refuel to the South of France. Can’t think of the name of the place –
CB: Orange [in French accent].
WS: Toulouse was it?
CB: Orange [in French accent].
WS: Was it?
CB: Orange, yeah.
WS: Then up to St. Morgan [?] for customs clearance, and then up to Scotland to deliver these aircraft.
CB: Mm.
WS: But the first one we had to deliver was to the Bristol Aircraft Company at Gloucester. They wanted it for the engines because they were Gloucester Engines [unclear]. And we handed it over – there were three [emphasis] chaps on the airfield in a little hut. We handed over the papers and said ‘where’s the transport for, to go to the station?’ Railway station [CB laughs]. And they said ‘we haven’t got any transport. We all come to work on our bikes’ [laughs]. He said ‘we close down at four o’clock, if you’d like to wait ‘til four o’clock, we’ll run you into the railway station on the fire tender’ [CB and WS laugh]. So we travelled then up to Charing Cross, and the idea was you’d go to Charing Cross, walk up the Strand, go into Kingsway House I think it was, which was Transport Command, to book your flight back to Cairo as a passenger. So going up on the train to Charing Cross, I think it was on a Thursday or a Friday, I’m not sure which. But we said ‘nobody knows who we are [laughs], when we are [laughs] what we’re doing or anything.’ So two of us were Londoners, I can’t remember were the third person was, went, erm – so we said ‘we’ll go home for the night,’ and yeah, ‘meet again tomorrow about nine o’clock time, and go up to the Strand’ [emphasis]. So we strolled up to this place and went in to book our flight back and the chap said ‘where you come from?’ So we said ‘Cairo’ [CB and WS laugh]. He said ‘oh you want to go back, come and see me Monday’ [CB and WS laugh]. So that gave us thought for the next trip over, so we had five days [emphasis] home the next trip [laughs].
CB: So when was this? This is late forty-five is it?
WS: This is –
CB: Forty-six –
WS: Forty-six by this time, yeah.
CB: Right.
WS: I think it was when the –
CB: And what prompted the discharge? The demob?
WS: What prompted it?
CB: Yes. How did they work out, when you –
WS: Ooh I don’t know – you went into groups didn’t you, or something. I don’t know how it worked. You just had to wait and see –
CB: Mm.
WS: When your time came sort of thing.
CB: But you were still flying at that time.
WS: Erm, last time I flew in a Wellington [pause], I made a mistake [papers shuffling], I put some of my flights, civilian flights in here after the war, shouldn’t have done that, gliding. Erm, March 1947 –
CB: Mm.
WS: Is the last time I flew in a plane.
CB: What did you do when you left the RAF?
WS: Went back to where I started.
CB: In the insurance company?
WS: Yeah, they were writing to me in Egypt saying ‘when are you going to be back, there’s a job waiting for you.’ So I just went back to – as if nothing had happened, just went back to work.
CB: Mm. Where did you live then? You rented a house somewhere did you?
WS: I was living in Sutton still. The house I’d been brought up in.
CB: Mm.
WS: 1947. I was married in forty-eight. Went to live with Pam’s parents then in Fulham [pause] and – for five years. Couldn’t – we struggled and struggled to find somewhere to rent but you know, people with families were given priority and all that sort of thing. And then by a stroke of good fortune, somebody said to me one day ‘old so-and-so’s going to retire, they’re going to move down the West Country,’ and I knew where they lived and so forth. I didn’t know it was their house, I thought perhaps they just rented the, rented this house, and I went round – ‘if you’re moving out can we move in?’ [laughs] sort of attitude.
CB: Yeah.
WS: And it was their house apparently. It was a spinster [emphasis] living there. Had to sell it, and it was a house that had been divided into two flats with a sitting tenant upstairs. And I – part of my work at the office was dealing with building societies, so I knew the secretary of a small building society quite well, and I thought ‘oh.’ She told me what she wanted for it, about twelve hundred pound [laughs] for this house. Thought – the chance you take with a sitting tenant is an unknown quantity.
CB: Mm.
WS: And I went to the phone and rang up the secretary of the building society one evening, that evening, and said ‘I’ve got a bit of a problem,’ told him what, what I’d got sort of thing, and he said ‘oh, I think we can help you Bill,’ he said, ‘you’ll need two hundred pounds of deposit,’ but he said ‘we’ll take care of the rest.’ And borrowed two hundred pounds from my dad [emphasis] on pain of suffering that I paid it back within six months, and he kept on and on about this two hundred pounds until at the end of six months we’d struggled to collect it and [laughs] get it back to him. It was [laughs] ‘here’s your so and so money’ sort of thing [laughs]. Course the mortgage worked out at eight pound eleven a month, and I can see us now sitting down with pencil and paper to work out our expenditure, ‘cause we got a – we’d started a family by this time. Well, the family hadn’t been born yet. We’d started [laughs] one.
CB: How many children did you have in the end?
WS: Two, boy and a girl.
CB: And did you stay with insurance all your working life?
WS: Yeah, yeah.
CB: When did you retire?
WS: 26th of February 1985.
CB: And what was the company?
WS: General Accident.
CB: Oh right [pause].
WS: But erm, various jobs during that time –
CB: Mhm.
WS: Up in London, various, into various offices for different jobs up in London. And at Putney, the manager at Reading here rang me up. We had crossed paths at one time. He rang me up to say there was a job at Reading if I’d like to apply for it, which meant quite a bit of promotion, and I was aged fifty then.
CB: Mhm.
WS: I thought ‘nobody else is going to offer me a promotion at my time of life,’ so I went home to tea and said ‘I’ve been offered a job at Reading,’ and the family said ‘where’s Reading?’ [laughs]. We had to get the map out to find out. So that’s how I came here.
CB: And this is the house?
WS: Well that’s another story, ‘cause to – I was travelling backwards and forwards to start with. Trying to go round estate agents and – with the General Accident you had a staff mortgage with a very low rate of interest, ‘cause outside was about fifteen percent at that time, and they were doing staff loans at three and a half percent.
CB: Cor.
WS: But the amount of repayments which had to be buying down [?] policy. The premiums plus interest couldn’t exceed twenty five percent of his salary, so you could work out exactly how much you could borrow. And the property they kept sending us to and the price they were asking was ridiculous. So I was in my office one day and the – I had a newspaper cutting on my desk. And a woman came in with, delivering sort of papers and things round the building, she came in with some papers for me. She said ‘ooh, who’s buying houses then’ sort of thing, nosey sort of a person. I said ‘I’m trying [emphasis] to,’ she said ‘ooh, the one next to me’s got to be sold, take me home at five o’clock’ she said ‘you can look at mine, it’s the same as the one next door’ [laughs]. And so I came here [laughs].
CB: Amazing.
WS: People – I’ve been lucky all my life.
CB: Yeah, it’s good.
WS: So I went home and said to Pam ‘I’ve found a house,’ so we piled in the car [laughs] and came back that evening, and the people – it was a bit of an odd situation. Apparently this chap had [unclear] a farm had retired, bought this place, and he had two daughters, both married. One was living with him to look after him, and when he died he hadn’t left a will, so the place had to be sold because they couldn’t raise a mortgage to pay off the other sister. It was a game quite by chance really. The first [emphasis] time I came in – when that person showed me her house I knocked on this door to see if I could have a look round [CB coughs].
CB: Mm.
WS: The son was here, he was a bit sort of backwards, he turned out to be. I said ‘I understand your house is being sold,’ you know, ‘is it possible to have a quick look round?’ ‘Well I don’t know what I think about that’ he says, so that’s all that. He said ‘you can come in if you’d like,’ you know. And on the table in here was a letter, looking at it upside down said ‘Brain and Brain.’ And I thought ‘ooh I know them, had dealings with them through the office,’ these solicitors. So I thought ‘ooh, Brain and Brain,’ and, so the next morning I rang up Brain and Brain about Hardcourt [?] Drive. ‘Ooh come and see me’ he says, ‘come and see me.’ Real old fashioned solicitors this place, so – in the reception you had a silver tray to put your visiting card on –
CB: Really?
WS: You know, that sort of place [laughs].
CB: Yeah, yeah .
WS: And he said, he says ‘we’ve been trying to get them out for months,’ he says [CB laughs and coughs]. He says ‘there was one person interested in the house nine months ago but whether they still are’ he doesn’t know, he says ‘we’ve got to the point now where we’ve put the rent up so high we’re forcing them out’ [CB laughs]. He said ‘it’s in the hands of the estate agent now’ [CB clears throat.’ He said he couldn’t discuss the price or anything with me because he was part of the – I don’t know what they called it, the administration or something, you know to wind up the, your estate. So I went to see the estate agents. ‘Oh yeah’ he says, you know, ‘I had one offer, all I could get out of him was that the offer had to be over sixteen thousand’ [laughs]. And so I did my maths, we knew I could borrow that much, you know, that sort of business [?], and I’d got a house [unclear] to sell, and I couldn’t work out from him – but these people had been interested way back, were the party that were interested, that’s all I could find out. And he said ‘offer of sixteen thousand,’ you know, he said ‘the offer’s got to be over sixteen thousand.’ I thought ‘oh, reading between the lines, I think their offer’s sixteen, so I’ll put in an offer for sixteen one-fifty’ [laughs].
CB: And got it?
WS: [Laughing] and got it. But that – the offer I put in on the Tuesday morning, or was it the Wednesday morning? But the deadline was noon on the Thursday. So I, I hadn’t even seen [emphasis] the place, only from the outside [laughs]. So I’d got a house, didn’t know what to do with it [laughs].
CB: Amazing.
WS: The company gave me a bridging loan –
CB: Mhm. Then you sold the other one.
WS: ‘Til I’d sold the other. It took me nine [emphasis] months to sell the other one.
CB: Did it, wow.
WS: It was at a time when the high rate of interest and the market was flat [emphasis].
CB: Mm.
WS: But it turned out in the end that I’d sold that one for sixteen one, and bought this one for sixteen one-fifty [laughs].
CB: Can’t be bad. Going back to your early stage, where there acquaintances you made then who became friends and then you were in touch the rest of your life, or did the crew disperse and you never saw them again?
WS: The pilot lived near Gatwick, I kept in touch with him. We stayed friends, used to go on holiday together, that sort of thing. One of the gunners was in – the, the bomb aimer who was a Scouse had emigrated to Canada, and he used to come across and we’d meet up. The, one of the gunners was, it started off really when we were first demobbed was a reunions, that’s where it started off.
CB: Squadron reunions?
WS: Yeah. Erm, no, 205 Group reunions, group reunions. All the squadrons [unclear]. That’s when the crew was, you know, before they dispersed so to speak, for about two years I suppose.
CB: Mm.
WS: But the pilot lived near Gatwick. Say the bomb aimer – the navigator went up to Yorkshire, he was a right character he was, he never worked again [laughs]. You can’t believe it really sometimes, but his wife used to, his wife used to go out to work and he lived opposite a pub, so he used to go across to the pub [laughs]. House was a terrible [emphasis] condition. He never – he started up doing some painting and decorating as a, I don’t know, whether or not he got any jobs or not I don’t know, but he certainly didn’t do any jobs indoors [laughs], yeah.
CB: Amazing.
WS: I suppose it’s the – but the only one left now is the gunner who’s living near Waddington.
CB: Warrington?
WS: Waddington [emphasis].
CB: Waddington, right.
WS: But last I’d spoke to his wife, last I’d spoke to her she said he, he’s not well at all. He can’t talk at all now, sort of thing.
CB: Mm.
WS: So erm – I did try to contact him before going up to Lincoln but I couldn’t – what’s happened to them I don’t know but, just couldn’t get anywhere on the phone.
CB: Okay. Let’s just pause there, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Horace Shaw
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-27
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AShawWH151027
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:04:18 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Cheshire
Scotland--Ross and Cromarty
North Africa
Egypt
Italy
Italy--Foggia
Austria
Austria--Salzburg
West Bank--Bethlehem
Middle East--Jerusalem
Description
An account of the resource
Bill was a wireless operator/air gunner. He joined the Home Guard in 1941 and registered for conscription to the Royal Air Force (RAF) in 1943. He reported to Lord’s Cricket Ground and went to an Initial Training Wing at RAF Bridgnorth. Bill then went to No. 2 Radio School at RAF Yatesbury where he qualified as a signaller. He did a gunnery course at RAF Evanton in Scotland before going to RAF West Kirby and embarking at Greenock to sail to Alexandria.
After a transit camp in Ismailia, Bill went to Jerusalem and attended a wedding in Bethlehem. He proceeded to an Operational Training Unit at Attiyah where they trained on Wellingtons. He was posted to RAF Shallufa for conversion onto B-24s.
Bill eventually joined 37 Squadron, No. 205 Group, at Tortorella, near Foggia. He went on two operations: one to bomb a railway bridge in the north of Italy and the second to attack marshalling yards near Salzburg in Austria. After the Germans surrendered, he flew up supplies from the south to the north of Italy. The squadron then disbanded, and Bill was sent to a maintenance unit just outside Cairo, delivering aircraft. Bill left the RAF in 1947.
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
37 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
bombing
crewing up
Dominie
Initial Training Wing
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Evanton
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/773/9293/PWatkinsJ1801.2.jpg
23a737b72e514fe88268be4fdbef9f76
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/773/9293/AWatkinsJ180802.2.mp3
7707459bd57b1cac29e841380e02be32
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Watkins, Snogger
John Watkins
J Watkins
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Watkins (b. 1924, 1624229 Royal Air Force). Initially a ground personnel wireless operator he volunteered and flew operations as a wireless operator with 230, 240 and 205 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Watkins, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott, and I’m interviewing Warrant Officer John Watkins who was a wireless op and air gunner for Bomber Command and Coastal Command. I’m interviewing today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at John’s home, who was referred to as Jack during the war and it’s today, the 2nd of August 2018. So, first of all, thank you John for agreeing to be interviewed today.
JW: Quite happy to do so.
SP: So, John do you want to tell me about what you did before you joined up? Before the war.
JW: Yes. Well, before I was in retail. Men’s retail in Rotherham. In 1938 or ’9, the Air Training Corps was formed in Rotherham, 218 Squadron with librarian, Chief Librarian Broadhead I think they called him who was made CO. And there was about eighteen of us with a little Air Training Corps badge and so that’s when the 218 Air Training Corps Squadron was formed. Just after that we all got uniforms. Now, that was a very proud moment because we had the Church Parade and I’ve still got a photograph of that where there’s the commanding officer is first and I, being tall was just behind him. We were really proud to be the beginning of 218 Cadet force, RAF Cadet force in Rotherham. From, at that particular time it was 19’, 19’, oh ‘39, ’38, ’38, ’39. It was when the Rotherham and Sheffield Blitz was on. That means when the Germans were really flattening big buildings and well, all that went through in the Blitz and I at that time was only seventeen or eighteen but I was a fire watcher. So, if any of the, any of the fire bombs dropped we had a bucket of sand. We had to put it on it and shovel them away. It was scary to do that. Very, very scary. But I joined this Air Training Corps and that’s where I, because before this I used to be making model aeroplanes and I was very interested in flying right from the beginning. And so, when they said, ‘Do you want to join?’ I thought, ‘Right. I’ll go for interview.’ And that would be 1940, I would think I joined in I had to wait a while after they consider everything but I wanted to be in aircrew and very pleased to learn Morse and arms drill, marching and all the rest of it. So I was quite experienced by the time I did get, joined in in the RAF in 1942. Do you want any more now? So, I’ll cut it from there.
[recording paused]
I suppose I’d better, just a minute I’d better start off with, they called all the aircrew up to Blackpool to do their initial training. Blackpool saw all the, all the boarding houses were filled with trainee aircrew. So that’s where I first did the marching and the learning of, well, I’d already started learning Morse because I knew I wanted to be a wireless operator air gunner. Anyhow, so I first went to Recruitment Centre at Cardington, February 26th 1942. And then from there I went to Padgate at Blackpool. That would be August. We had to wait. They didn’t call me straight away. My father, I used to say, ‘Has my papers come yet? Has my papers?’ But I went to Padgate in August the 14th 1942. Then I went to the Signals School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire. That was in December 1942. That’s where I first started. It was quite easy there because as I say I could read Morse before I went there but then from there this is when I first went to Number 5 Group, Grantham, Lincolnshire which was Bomber Command, and it was the Headquarters of 617. Number 5 Group. This was in June the 24th 1943. That’s when the, that’s when the raid was on and that’s when I first met 617 Squadron and I said, ‘Well, what is, what’s the first job?’ And the first, as near as I can remember the first job was with two senior wireless operators that had been in the Force some time and regarding the raid, the Dambuster raid. And that was April, in May 1943. Now then, I asked what my first job was at number 5 Group, Grantham and they said, well when, on this raid they will be flying with, you know the Dambusters raid. But number 5 Group they don’t want the aircraft to contact 5 Group at Grantham, because if they did, if they were attacked while they were on this raid and they contacted 5 Group they’d send some bomber and just flatten the Headquarters of 5 Group. So, they said we want you to, three of us all together. Two senior ones and me as a junior, and you had to take radio receivers. The crews had been instructed to contact us which was in the middle of a field between, between Scampton and Grantham, and we had this, we had these receivers and if they got into trouble, any of these bombers, they had to contact us. We’d got special, special sign, call sign. Then we would contact Grantham, 5 Group by telephone. So that was one way of preventing them stopping the raid by clearing the head Group at Grantham. That was, as I say I was in Scampton 617, April 26th ’43. Funny thing, I was in, I was actually at Scampton about four or five months and it was the exact time when the raid was on. I’ve got that on my official papers which said I was there but I was a very minor, a very minor helper but I was very proud to be there. Now then, after that we had to go to Number 4 Radio School at Madley near Hereford to complete the flying. The flying part of the signal, of the radio and that was in July and August 1943. So, from, from 617 Squadron I went over to Madley near Hereford and so then after that I’d done all the wireless and flying part. I went to Number 10 Gunnery School at Barrow in Furness in September 25, ‘43 to do the gunnery course. And on January ’44, that’s when I’d done all the gunnery and got my, got my [pause] I think I’d got the gunnery course finished. I went to the Personnel Disposal Centre in January the 16th 1944. And then to Dispersal Unit because we were sent there from, from there to Canada. Now, we went and I’ve got the draught number, draught 867, Royal Mail Ship Andes. And we were sent over to Canada and the USA. Now, this ship was built for the Mediterranean. A flat-bottomed thing which was built for, I think it was six hundred chaps and there was four thousand of us in it going across the Atlantic in January 1944. I think it should be ’43 that. No, it isn’t. It says —
SP: Yeah.
JW: But anyhow, I can’t quite read that. So —
SP: That’s January ‘44 that. Yeah.
JW: Yes. Right. So, from there, when we get over to Canada we went up to, went up to Montreal, just as a transit camp. And then from there they sent us down to New York. From New York by train. New York, Boston, Baltimore, right the way down Maryland. Right to the bottom, to Miami. Miami in Florida. And that was quite an experience because they took ten days to get down and we were dressed in Royal Air Force blue, and we used to, we were stopping at every other station and meeting all the Americans. Anyhow, from there, from, from Miami they sent us over to Number 111 Operational Training Unit at Nassau in the Bahamas. Now, that’s where I went training on Liberator bombers and Mitchell bombers. We did our training there but this was with Coastal Command. I was four months all together training with the depth charges and gunnery and all that in Nassau. That was quite an experience because in those days nobody had been to Nassau. Only the very wealthy people. Now then, that was in? What date have I got down here? I think ’44. Somewhere, near. Anyhow, I was there for four months. Then I came back and went to reception at Harrogate on June, June ’44. So I was four months, I think in, in training in the Bahamas. And from there I went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Killadeas. That’s, that’s Northern Ireland. This was August the 8th ’44. So, it was on 131 Operational Training Unit. You see VE Day was the 8th of May ’45. Anyhow, this was ’44. August 9th ’44 and when, this was in Ireland on Lough Erne where we were trained on Catalina Flying Boats, and later on to Sunderlands but I had a very lucky experience there. On this Lough Erne the course to convert on to flying boats from, from ground Liberators and Mitchells. It was about eight weeks the course. Now, I went on this course, enjoying it too and then halfway through whether or not it was the good food in America I don’t know but I got boils on my bottom and I couldn’t sit still to send my Morse on the keys. So, I had to come off and go into dock to have these boils treated. Nurses chasing me around with kaolin poultices, red hot to put on your bottom. Didn’t like that bit. Anyhow, I went in to, in to this dock and I was in there for two or three weeks and they cleared them. Came out and looked for my crew, and this was lucky part on my part, very sad on the other part. They set of from Enniskillen, North Ireland, Lough Erne. They set off to India across the Bay of [pause] Is it Gibraltar? Bay of Biscay. Bay of Biscay. Set off from there. Got across the Bay of Biscay. Went to Gibraltar. From Gibraltar they went to Sicily and that’s as far as they got because they crashed in to Mount Etna in Sicily and they all got killed. All my mates got it. So, boils in some respects saved my life. But it was a very sad occasion because I’d just got used to them. Anyhow, I found a new crew. Got a new crew and did what they did by training fully and getting, leaving Northern Ireland across the Bay of Biscay, Gibraltar, and then to Sicily, only we didn’t hit Mount Etna. We went straight on and down. Down to Habbaniya, I think. I can’t remember the names but we ended up at Karachi in Northern India, and that’s where we did a bit of supply business flying from, from there. I was with 240 Squadron this. Well, it would be one of two squadrons 240 and 205, and then 230 Squadron. They’re all, they were all Coastal Command [pause] Have a little finish and then I’ll probably —
[recording paused]
JW: 205 Squadron at Redhills Lake, Madras. From Karachi we went down. This was 1945. We went down. That was from, from Karachi, 205 Squadron at Redhills Lake, Madras comes next. That’s the south of India, and we were stationed there in March ’46, I think it is. Anyhow, then we were doing supply from Koggola. We got sent from Madras which is, that’s interesting too because Madras, there was Redhills Lake there. I had an operation, and I said to a chap, he was an Indian surgeon. I said, ‘I’ve been to Madras. Redhills Lake.’ He said, ‘Oh, they’ve built a big either hospital or something similar at that place near Madras. Oh, I could go in to, I could go in to details about being there in Redhills Lake. We went on leave to the only gold field in India. They called it Kolar Gold Fields, and I even got a chance to handle some of the nuggets. The big chunks of gold. They wouldn’t give me one but I went down there and they said, ‘Do you want to go down here.’ I said, ‘Oh, I’ll risk anything.’ So we, two of three of us said, so but they said, ‘Before you go down, and if you want to get out for a big cave down there you can get out and go around if you want. But we’ve got to warn you as soon as you go out and go into this cave if you don’t get into the middle where the water is coming up in the spring where the oxygen comes you’ll pass out.’ So, we did it anyway. We went and rushed to, rushed to this spring and sped over it just to say we’d been in. That’s why. Little daredevils. So that was, that was from Redhills Lake. Now then, they sent us from Redhills Lake at Madras over to, to Ceylon as it was. That’s Sri Lanka now. Koggola. Now, Koggola was stuck on to, stuck on to, [pause] What’s the capital of Ceylon? Galle. The capital of Ceylon used to be Galle. Well, Koggola Airfield [pause] Lake or whatever it was at Koggala was next to Galle in Ceylon. That was June in 1946. We slipped, we’ve missed a lot out, but anyhow and then that, that is what upset me most of all partly because from Koggala we did a lot of supply taking nurses and supplies over to Singapore. Seletar was the airfield on the station. Seletar. And we used to take these supplies but the thing that upset me terrifically was to see some of the lads that had been prisoners. Terrible to look at and to see them suffering. Some of them didn’t make it. They died before. But we, we took them back to Ceylon. That’s right. And that was the run that I did quite a lot. Between, between [pause] Seletar, which is Singapore back to Koggala in Ceylon. I’m just trying to think when we changed over to Sunderland Flying Boats. I think we did. I can’t remember the exact date but we did because I remember taking, they were a much bigger plane, the Sunderland than the Catalina because we were in a Sunderland Flying Boat when they said, ‘Right. You’ve got to take these supplies to Hong Kong.’ And so, we’d never been to Hong Kong before so we set off with these. I don’t know if we’d got nurses with us or just supplies, but we set off to go to Hong Kong and it was quite, I’ve got all the distances and times that it took us. I’ve got them in another book. But this time was the first time we went to Hong Kong. I shall never forget it because we’d not been there, well we hadn’t been on Sunderlands very long, but we gets going to Hong Kong and I remember the, it was in between mountains. There’s mountains on either side, and the wireless reception was terrible but we managed to get. I didn’t think we’d get there because Bob said, ‘Well, we’ve very little fuel so it looks like I’m going to have to put it down.’ And the thing that I can remember I was in the wireless operator’s unit just next to him, and I looked out of the window at the front and there was a big pier. A big pier stretching out right, as it got near the water. A big pier. I thought well, this is it. We’re going to crash into that. But somehow, he twisted it and missed the pier but we ended up on the beach. All the floats went through the wing, and the propeller got bent and all the rest of it but we were, we didn’t get killed. And I remember that, and thinking, well why did it happen? And I found out why it happened. Firstly, we hadn’t got enough fuel to turn round and land going out to sea because that’s where you were going. You’d got plenty of water to land. But we hadn’t, and that’s why we ended up in the beach. But I had to leave him. I had to leave Bob. We, we went with another aircraft back to Ceylon and Bob stayed there to give an account of why and that’s the last time I saw him. In 1946. And so I was very sorry. But two or three years ago I’m reading the Indian Ocean Flying Boat Association newspaper and it says, “Bob Cole is now living in Clacton on Sea.” So, I thought, marvellous. I’ll ring up. So, I rang him up, I said, ‘Bob, what are you doing?’ He says, ‘Who’s that?’ I said, ‘It’s Jack Watkins, your wireless op.’ He said, ‘Never. After all these years.’ As I say, it was only four or five years ago from now. He said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘I’m coming down to see you.’ So, I went out to see him and we were nice slim young chaps when I left him and now he’s got a big fat paunch and I’ve got a little belly. But anyhow, we had a lovely chat together and oh it was great that and now, even now when I told him that, I rang him up, I said, ‘Bob, guess what I’ve been flying in a little Tiger Moth that you used to train in before you got — ’ ‘Oh, no.’ He says, ‘I’ve not been in one of them for years.’ I said, ‘Well, I met a person that’s got one and he’s took me around, and I went right around with him right, very, very near to Scampton where the Red Arrows were,’ I said. ‘And the chap, the pilot said, ‘I’d better not get too near or the Red Arrows are there and they’ll chase us off. But it was a really good experience, and so I just had that but I thought you’d like to know about that. Anyhow, I’ll be seeing you before long, if I can get my mates to bring me down. I’ll come down and see you again.’ That’s it. So, it was lovely that. So that’s as near as I can go for a minute. Yeah.
[recording paused]
So, it was in August 1946 when I went for home enlistment. A Transit Centre was August. August 1946, and then I went to 10 Personnel Dispersal Centre on September the 12th ’46 and that was where I first started off from. From Blackpool on the, I’ve forgotten the name of the place now. Blackpool. Padgate. Started off at Padgate, ended up at Padgate and glad to get home then. Of course, I was BBC Sheffield, Rony Robinson, he goes on from there, said, ‘Oh, what did you do then?’ Well, I’d, this Rony Robinson started the, I said, ‘Well, when I got home,’ I said, ‘I remember coming to Rotherham Station and I’d got two kit bags. One with my flying kit in and one with my ordinary kit in, and —' I said, ‘I felt a bit miserable because the other pal that I’d been, met in Ceylon came, and he’d got, all his family met him. Well, I’d finished with my girlfriend so there were nobody to meet me but I carried these up to Wortley Road where I used to be living, and so I thought thank goodness I’m home.’ But, one of the first things that I thought of straight away, I’m finishing with marching and I’m going to buy myself a motorbike. So, I thought. So, I bought this little motorbike and I thought I’d never had one before, and I thought let’s see how this darned thing works. So, I sit on it, and it was slightly uphill. Kicks it up, and twist the, and twist the throttle and it started moving. Now, I was on it and it was going and I thought this is marvellous. I’m not pedalling and I’m going uphill. And I’m going on like this and I kept on going, and the chap was walking alongside me and said, ‘Why don’t you change gear?’ I’d never thought about that. But it was good to, to have something different. But then of course Rony went on, ‘So what happened then about your marriage business?’ I said, ‘Oh, that. That fell through. I was married for ten years and then I had to throw in the sponge, and I was ten years on my own then.
SP: So John, that was great to run through your sequence of events.
JW: Yeah.
SP: All the time within the RAF.
JW: Yeah.
SP: So, after you joined up and you’d done all your training —
JW: Yeah.
SP: You talked about sometimes, you were, the time you were at Scampton and it was the time when the Dambusters raid was on.
JW: That’s right.
SP: Did you know something special was happening there? Was it —
JW: Well, I knew it was. I didn’t know exactly what was happening but I was used to bombers having been on Liberator bombers which are very similar to the Lancaster and I knew there was something going off and I knew, but we didn’t know. They kept it very hush hush. I remember seeing Guy Gibson and N***** nearby but, because we were right in the middle of it when they were, before they put the big bombs for the Dambusters they used to be, they used to be loading these big bombs up with chains, and we were in a billet only a few hundred yards from it. And I thought crikey if that’s breaks. But no. As for the raid itself, apart from when they told us they didn’t give a lot of detail. They just gave us the call signs and if you heard from this one pass it on straight to 5 Group at Grantham. And, oh no, it was exciting really but scary for a young man. As I say if anybody said they weren’t scared they must have been tougher than me because you never know what’s going to happen. You’re on edge most of the time. But no. I enjoyed, I can’t say I enjoyed it but I remember little things that’s nothing to do with this. My mother came to see me while I was on there. No. I’m, I’m skipping a bit. This was in Blackpool. She came to see me in Blackpool there and of course there was, it was full of aircrew training and she was a very delicate little woman, my [laughs] So, she said, ‘Right. Are we going for lunch?’ Well, the only place you could go to lunch was Old Mother Riley’s Tuck Shop, and they’d even got the knives and forks chained to the table because the lads used to [waltz ] them. But no. To get back to Scampton. We did it. It was very hush hush. We didn’t know a lot. I knew that I had to do a certain job, and that was listen for messages and pass them on to, they was all in different call signs, but you’d pass them on to 5 Group. And as I say after that I seemed to be taken up with being posted as I say to different places.
[recording paused]
Yes. The hut that they told us to go to was to, was in the middle of a field out in nowhere really between Lincoln and 5 Group, or Scampton and 5 Group. I can’t remember. It’s in a similar, similar area. But instead of, the reason they sent us out there was because they’d been told to contact us in this little hut. They give us different call signs, and then we’d pass the message by telephone to 5 Group in Grantham. What the main thing was, they didn’t want any of the bombers to contact 5 Group because that was headquarters, and if they’d have gone straight away, they’d have sent a bomber and just cleared the lot. So, as I say it was exciting for, for a young chap and baffling and all this, but we got, we got through it all right.
SP: An important part to play during that time.
JW: It really was. It seems, it seems trivial now but at that time it must have been important for them to tell us to go there and send us in between Scampton and, and Grantham. Between them two. We were there so they would be contacting us there. And then if they wanted to bomb where, where they could hear where our call sign, one we, we’d have got it then. Yeah. But no. No, it’s, it’s a long, long time ago.
SP: And what was life like at Scampton air base at that time? So obviously we know —
JW: Well —
SP: The Dambusters. What was life like on the base?
JW: The base was, well, it’s hard to say because everything was in short supply. I mean food and things like that. We got served, I remember queuing up a meal once. K rations they called it. K rations. They were just like these Ryvita biscuits. Two or three of those and that was it. But even in Blackpool before we went to Scampton the food was poor and we used to send it home. We all had a biscuit tin with bits of cake and things like that. There were more mice in them boarding houses. They used to be running on the top of the bed. We used to knock them off. In your greatcoat there would be mice because we used to keep food in the bedroom. But things were a bit tight there. But there are certain things that that I remember that I wish we’d got. Dried egg. It was powdered egg. I loved it. I don’t know if you can get it or not now. We’ve gone off the subject now so you’d better get back to —
SP: That’s fine. It’s the really interesting stuff. It’s all those bits of information.
JW: Well, you see things that, that are, different altogether and especially when I’ve just skipped over the Blitzes of Rotherham and Sheffield there. That was really frightening because I remember being in the Tivoli, Tivoli was a little cinema in Rotherham and this was the night when the Blitz was on too, and I’m sat there with a young lady of course, one of the neighbours, and we were watching this film. All of a sudden boom, boom, and the seats were shaking like mad so I said, ‘Well, we’d better get out of here.’ I said, ‘Because it looks as though it’s getting nearer and nearer.’ So, we gets out, and there was a little passage down the side of the Tivoli cinema so, I said, ‘Come on, let’s get in this passage.’ We just stood in this passage and whoof it shot us right to the other end of the passage. And I said, ‘We’d better get home now.’ And there again when you get home, some had these Anderson shelters which were like corrugated steel in the garden. But otherwise, you could have what they called, I forget what they called them but it was a great big steel plate the size of the dining table, a big dining table with all wire meshes. Meshing underneath and that was your air raid shelter indoors, and you could put blankets and things on and creep in there every time the siren went. You know, you can’t realise that. Kids wouldn’t realise that if the sirens were whoo whoo whoo. You’d know that that’s the time that they were coming. The German bombers were coming. And when they had done with their business and they’d gone you could hear them hmmmm, then the all clear would come. It would be one solitary note [humming] That means you could come out and put the fires out, or see to what wanted doing outside. You don’t realise that. People don’t, don’t realise that can’t remember the Blitz. But there was some, I’ve forgotten most of it but I remember in the middle of Sheffield was a massive big pub come hotel called the Marples and it was filled, the bottom was filled with all spirits, whisky, wine and you mention it and that went up, and that. Oh, it was, it was terrible. All broken down and on fire. I remember my wife worked in, in the Co -op’s stitching sewing business in West Street and she said, ‘Well, we just got ready and went to work from Tinsley,’ where she was living. And when they got to work the policeman said, ‘What are you doing? Get back home.’ You know. So, they sent them back home then. But you forget. It’s a good job you do forget really. But not altogether. Same as this that I’m coming back to when they’re going to close Scampton down. I don’t like it because I think they should, they should leave it open for British heritage because it’s such a, well it was such an important thing. It was just from the Dam raid to, it saved England anyhow, I think. And I mean they asked me before what, what do you think about it? I said, well I don’t know that much about it because, but I do know that if, If I said to the government, to whoever in charge, ‘We’re going to shift Nelson’s Column. We’re going to move it.’ There would be an uproar. Or if we said we’re not going to bother with Flanders Field with all the poppies. It’s only a field with poppies in so why should we worry? So, enough said.
SP: Ok.
JW: Right. Rest now.
SP: Ok John, so we’ve covered about Scampton and, and the air raids.
JW: Yeah.
SP: At Sheffield and Rotherham.
JW: Yeah.
SP: Do you want to tell me a little time about you time when you’d done your training in Canada and you were travelling through America? You said you were in your RAF uniform.
JW: Blue yes. Yeah.
SP: How were you treated by the Americans? What was that journey like?
JW: Well, really from, from New York that was an experience and all because remember we were only eighteen, or, nineteen, year old. You’ve heard about New York but then you come and you have a short period, just a short period in New York. I remember going around Broadway. Well, everybody’s heard of Broadway, and you look up and the buildings are so high that they seemed to join at the top. Of course, you’d nothing like that in England. So, it’s all busy busy. I can’t remember much about it but it wasn’t, there was no black out. No blackout in America. And when I left England there was rationing. You daren’t strike a match in the dark because, ‘Put that light out there.’ Because it was the ruling there. The bread was brown and it was dark. You don’t get white bread, and you couldn’t get sugar and I remember the rationing was butter, sugar, lard, marg, bacon, eggs, cheese. All those were rationed to nearly nothing. But then to get from that to America. I told Rony, I said I’m going to start a book about. “From Hell to Paradise and Back.” And I said, I said, he said, ‘Well, why don’t you write it?’ I said, ‘Because it’s all the past and nobody’s interested.’ And I keep thinking now about Scampton. It’ll be all in the past and will be forgotten like the poppy fields. We don’t want it to be forgotten. Not for the kid’s sake. And anyhow, coming back to America I looked at New York and Broadway. I’d seen that, and quickly just going past and then we set off down and I should have to look at the map to find out which places we stopped at because it was a ten day journey from New York down to Miami in Florida because we kept stopping and he used to say, ‘Right. You’ve got a half day here.’ So, we would go out and we’d meet the people of America and they were marvellous. Lovely. Because they knew what we were suffering in England and oh all the food, The stuff like that. Everything was really like paradise at the time of England. That was why I thought I’ll write a book, “From Hell to Paradise,” and come back. But anyhow, when it gets to the bottom the thing is that you remember about the train there in, in America and you go to the back compartment the first thing I said, ‘I’ll have a tea please.’ So, what did they bring me? An iced tea. I’d never had iced tea in my life. So, I had that but go back to the compartment and look down the line from where you’re coming, and you can’t see the end. It goes, goes on and on and on. Miles and miles. But every time you stopped and went to see, you learned something about the people. In young men. I mean, I got on a bike there once and I said, ‘Where’s are the, there’s no brakes, where are —’ ‘Oh, you just back pedal for the brakes.’ And things like that stick in your mind and they were lovely people, and they really looked after us. And of course, when I got to Miami, I must tell you this, being a shy and bashful RAF aircrew chap, I met a girl down there and she was a WAVE. What’s a WAVE? A WAVE is an American Wren. They call them WAVES there. So, I met this girl called Peggy and I were very gentlemanly, no messing about and she took us all around to nightclubs where all the names like Bing Crosby. I don’t know who they were but they were right up there. Took us round there, took us round a race, a dog racing track. Never been to one of those. Everything was bigger and, and elaborate. Anyhow, she was a nice lass and I’d, I’d split with my girl, because I’d heard that she’d been playing away and confirmed that that was true. So I said, ‘Right. Well, that’s it now. We’re finished.’ I said, ‘You can be my girlfriend.’ ‘Oh, that would be lovely.’ So that’s what I met when I’m was going down to Miami. Then I had to leave them. Had to leave them behind. You get on a little boat to go to Nassau in the Bahamas, and that was a lovely trip because the waters there were pure and clean, and you could see all the little fishes like humbugs, all different colours. I remember I dropped a pair of sunglasses down there. Right down to the bottom. Down and down and down. Oh, ever so far. Oh, that’s that then. That’ll cost me a fiver for some new ones. Anyhow, this young lad says, ‘I’ll get them boss. I’ll get them.’ And he starts swimming down and I looked at him. Well, I could swim a lot having been on Catalinas and, and he got them back for me. ‘Right. Thank you.’ So, I gave him a penny and he was quite happy. Anyhow, we go from there with these flying fish at the side of the boat going from, from Miami to Nassau in the Bahamas. Now, Nassau at that time was when the Duke of Windsor, he’d finished with, he didn’t want to be king and he threw in his hand and went with Mrs Simpson and they went to Windsor House in the Bahamas. In Nassau. We didn’t see much of him but he was there at the same time. And anyhow, we got there after seeing, oh I’d better tell you this but it’s, it’s a bit frightening, and it’s a bit rude and it’s a bit all sorts. But I’ll tell it you and I hope you’re, nobody’s offended but it’s true. We gets there and just before we pulls up in to Nassau the MO came out and he said, ‘Now, look here lads, just sit down there and look at this — ’ video. Not a video. A film. And he says, ‘It’s a bit horrible but you’re going, going to watch it because I’m going to force you in to it.’ He says, ‘Now, there’s some beautiful young ladies on this island here. Well, I’m going to tell you now, after you’ve seen this film, if you carry on with what you think you’re going to be doing good luck to you, but don’t come to me complaining later.’ And he showed me this film of VD, and I’m not kidding I thought right that’s me finished with females forever. It was disgusting. They got a little umbrella and stuffed it up your willy and brought, ooh I thought. Well, it put me off, and it put quite a, most of the chaps off but one or two did. They did succumb to these wishes of the, but partly the females because they were asking you, well I’ll not go in to more detail because it’s rude that. But anyhow, that was one other thing but everything was lovely there. That’s why I think when I came home, and I got these boils on my bottom I had such wonderful food there. And that, I think it upset completely but anyhow the other thing I’ll tell you, one little instance because really it would be uninteresting to anybody else but in these big Lanc [pause] in the American —
SP: Liberator.
JW: Liberator bombers, we were. There was all sorts of different, everything different on the radio and the guns. The guns were .5 cannon, and there was blister, blister turrets underneath so when you landed you were in between the two wheels, big wheels and it nearly set on fire. But I remember one instance during training. We used to be, we used to be armed with depth charges and all the rest, because there was some sort of submarines and things in the, in the area. I didn’t know about but we used to go on to training trips and if we didn’t see anything on the way back there was a wreck, and the idea was to, for practice reasons the navigator used to have to drop one depth charge near this wreck and the air gunner, wireless op/air gunner used to have to lift up the Perspex on the back turret, lean over with a big camera and take a film of exactly how near we were to this wreck. And the one that I remember was I had got this turn. ‘It’s your turn to go take the photo.’ So, I gets this dirty great big camera, leans out on the back and says, ‘Right. Ok. I’m ready at the back.’ He goes, ‘Right. We’re taking the run. Right. Bombs gone,’ and I expected to take a film of the, how near to the wreck it was, and all of a sudden the water splashed up. We were only about a hundred foot up but the water came right up and I never got a film because the navigator had pressed the wrong button and instead of pressing it for one, he pressed the whole lot. So there were about six or eight depth charges went and we got splashed. But we just said that it must have been an electrical fault. It couldn’t have been our fault because — but that’s just an instance that sticks in your mind. You see when I’m talking like this, one thing leads to another. We talk about sea planes, Liberators, Catalinas and Sunderlands. Now, you think when you land a Lancaster or you land a Liberator you come down gently and it’s either a good landed, a bumpy one, or straight but you’re down and that’s it. You open up and you get out and go for a coffee or something. When you land a seaplane you land on water which little, few people know that water is as hard as concrete when you land and you can feel it under your foot, because it’s only like the thickness of the hull. But you land there and you look for a buoy floating. It might be rough, but you look for it and there’s always got to be two of you in the front turret to get that buoy because you have to have a big boat hook. And then you see this buoy with a loop on top and you’ve to grab the loop and pull it. The engines are still going. Pull this towards you, and then get a big thick rope and stuff it through this loop on the buoy, bring it back and wrap it around a bollard and hold it tight and then give the thumbs up to the pilot to cut the engines. And it’s quite an ordeal that to do that especially when it’s wobbling about. I nearly lost one of my best mates. We were both in the front doing that, and he was doing the boat hook and I was getting the rope to wrap around this bollard, and all of a sudden he slipped and he went down there. So, he’s hanging on, he’s gone under the water hanging on to this arm and I’m hanging onto the bollard with the rope there and he nearly, he nearly got killed really. But anyhow he gradually pulled himself up there. Anyway, we never spoke. We never spoke either of us just put my thumb up to the pilot to cut the engines. And that was that and we never mentioned it again but in two minutes he could have gone. That’s it.
[recording paused]
SP: So, we talked about the different planes that you flew in, in Coastal Command. The Catalinas and the Sunderlands.
JW: Yeah.
SP: Do you want to tell me a little bit about the role of Coastal Command? What, what you did on a day to day basis?
JW: Well, it depends which squadron you were with and where but generally speaking the, the role of Coastal Command was to escort the convoys that in my opinion from America to England because we depended on America for food and for lots of things, early days. And it was a known fact that the Germans had got terrific patrols and submarines that were just up and down, and just pinching all the trade and sinking all the troops. We were losing a terrific lot of ships and things, but we also saved a lot because we, we managed to depth charge a lot of the submarines. I don’t know how many. I can’t tell. I did know but I’ve forgotten now. And apart from that Coastal Command was on, what’s the name [pause] for any Bomber Command or anybody got brought down in the sea they would land and pick them up which was, we did quite a lot of that. And it was important to know that, that they were there. But my main job was on the South East Asia Command. That’s from Madras at first. Redhills Lake, Madras to Singapore. Seletar at Singapore. And it was supplying, in fact they called the squadron 240 SPUI Supply at first, to supply nurses and equipment, food etcetera to, to Seletar at Singapore. And then we did that for quite a while and then they transferred us to Galle or Koggala which was in Ceylon. We were doing the same, same trips from, from there, from Ceylon over to Seletar, Singapore. Down the Malacca Straits, and searching for Japanese submarines.
I don’t know if we escorted any ships across there but mainly it was supply. And as I say it’s hard to remember now, but from there how it finished up was we got, we went on to Sunderlands from, from Catalinas. They were carrying more things, but there’s also different things to learn about them. We were still, though we were experienced we were still training. Every time you changed from a Catalina to a Sunderland you’ve all the different radios, different guns, and different procedures. Mind you the Sunderland’s a lot bigger because there was a galley there where we could cook. There was a big, big difference altogether. In fact, the Japanese and Germans used to call it a flying porcupine there were that many guns in it. But as I say when you think about different planes you’d to learn about different, the Catalina has got a blister on the side with guns. We’d to learn the different guns and the different radios. Apart from knowing the, there was one, one thing that I do remember. We were coming back from, from Singapore to [pause] I think it might have been Redhills or it might have been Koggala, in there, and the navigator, the navigator had given Bob the course, and somehow, mind you the navigator was mostly always drunk. He liked brandy. And Bob says, ‘Jack, will, will you just check your directional finding aerial.’ It’s like a round aerial that you twist around to find out where the beacons were sending messages from and it’s tells you where to go. Well, the navigator had given us a course to go so far, and if we’d have kept to that, if we’d kept to that course, we should have missed Ceylon and we should have been in the middle of the Indian Ocean. But we used this, this direction finding aerial, put it right and landed. But just a little thing like that could have, we could have ended up in the middle of the Indian Ocean and wondered why. But these are things that’s apart from searching your eyes, it’s no wonder my eyes are bad because you go from, from Ceylon to Singapore you don’t just sit down and listen to the radio you’re searching all the time for submarines and anything that is abnormal that’s going to attack our shipping and —
SP: Would that all be by sight or was there any equipment that would highlight if there were submarines as well?
JW: Well, it was really, it depended on when. I think there was certain, certain equipment there but I can’t remember much about it. Mainly by sight. That’s what I say, my eyes used to, we used to have to had to scan, scan the horizon. Scan the sea. I’ve spent hours and hours looking at that for periscopes and things like that, but that’s a long time ago. I forget about it. But I was pleased when it was all over and they said, ‘Right, you’re going. You’re going to, you’re going back to England.’ You couldn’t believe it at first. Little things come to mind then. The actual week when I was demobbed there was a lot of snakes and things out there, you know and we used to [pause] I remember this time when it was near going home time. We went, we’d been to the mess, we’d been drinking a lot, and we always carried a revolver and always live ammunition, and we get back to the mess and they were all like palm trees, you know. They weren’t wooden things. Palm they used to, the huts and billets were. And I remember going in and seeing this snake on the top and it was only about, it might have been a couple of yards long. Maybe a yard and a half, and it was a silver one and we’d been drinking and we were just happily shooting at it to knock it off like. So, you know, as we shot it down when we did shoot it down I always thought snakes went slow like that but this one was brmmm and it was out of the door. So, the following day I’m going around getting all my things stamped for going home and I came to this office of the hut where they had to stamp my forms and just as I get there, I was on a bike at the time and a dirty great snake, a whacking big thick thing going across the road just as I can see today. I thought crumbs. I nearly fell of the bike. I might have done. I jumped off anyhow. Gets into the hut where I’d gone to have this thing stamped. I said, ‘Crikey, I’ve just had an experience. There was a snake. I think it must have been twenty foot long as that thing.’ ‘Oh, you don’t want to worry about that,’ he says. ‘That’s, that, that were only a rat snake. They only eat rats.’ I said, ‘I don’t care what it was,’ I said, ‘Because just a few days ago we found a little snake on the top and it were all silver coloured. Silver coloured and we were shooting at it. We knocked it down. It shot off like.’ He said, ‘It’s a good job it didn’t come to you. They call them silver krait, and It’s the most poisonous snake in the country, so just these little things that stick in a small mind.
SP: Yeah.
JW: Now then —
SP: Did you have the same crew while you were out there?
JW: I did.
SP: Did you? Yeah.
JW: Until that last time when we crashed the Sunderland in Hong Kong and then we split up. But on odd occasions we used to fly with different, if they were short of a chap we’d —
SP: Yeah.
JW: If there was a wireless op.
SP: Who was your crew then? Who was your main crew?
JW: My main crew was Bob Cole. I’ve got pictures of us here. And —
SP: So —
JW: With the crew who they were.
SP: Yeah.
JW: Well, these were wireless operators.
SP: Just tell me who your crew were.
JW: This is all my crew.
SP: Yeah. What were their names?
JW: Bob [Vinton] there. Frankie [Burke]. Jock, I forget his name. I’ve got it written down somewhere. And he was the skipper. Hawkey, Flight Lieutenant Hawkey. Pete [Dakus] and I forget him now. He was, he was from down south. I’ve got them written down. It might be on the back of these. And I think he was an Aussie and that’s me. I don’t know where —
SP: So that’s your pilot.
JW: That’s Flight Lieutenant Hawkey and, well, I’ve got them written down somewhere. It might be on the back.
SP: So, John, obviously the crew called you Jack but everyone else had nicknames on crews. What was your nickname?
JW: Oh, yes. Well, as I say, well when I was on the crew it was still Jack but when I came home here and joined the RAF Association well that’s when at one of the meetings we’d been on parade and marching for some Armed Forces Day I think it was. But when we came back, we get to outside the Town Hall and the mayor came out and about she said, ‘Now, chaps if you’d like to pop upstairs for a coffee or a brandy.’ Well, you know who was first upstairs. I was up there like a shot and the girl serving the coffee she was really lovely and I looked at her. I said, ‘You are really lovely you are, aren’t you?’ She said, well, she didn’t mind, and I gave her a little kiss on the cheek. Now then, the mayor was just at my side. I didn’t know she was there so I thought I’m on a charge here. I’m going to get in trouble. So, I turned to her and I said, ‘I wonder, is it appropriate that I kiss the mayor?’ And she said, ‘I don’t see why not.’ So, I thought how lovely. So, I got out of that, and I thought that was the end of it but it wasn’t really because the lads, some got on to that and I admitted I might have kissed one or two other ladies that were expecting to be kissed, or well I was liking to be kissing t them but anyhow that was that side. And then we come to a, a service in the local Minster and it was where the armed, there were the Military Wives Choir and brass band, and some other thing., some other group all in church. Full congregation. Also, before the service starts the mayor stands up and said, ‘Jack will you please stand. John will you please stand up and I want to present you with something.’ So, she presented me with this Scotch plaid carrier bag and I thought what’s all this about? So, I opened it and there was a, a lovely tie with a Sunderland Flying Boat printed on it and there was a gold watch that fits in your top pocket with a Sunderland Flying Boat on it, and then there was this mug. A lovely coloured mug with a Sunderland printed on it and they’d put, “To Snogger John Watkins,” just because I’d happened to kiss the mayor. But I thanked them very much for it and since that of course they all put my name on that as Snogger. And at first, I thought well I don’t know if I like this or not. It makes you feel a bit common and the rest of it. But then they printed a “Snogger” number plate for the back of my scooter. I said, ‘I’m not putting that on. You can just go and put my, do another one and put RAF 240 squadron and I’ll put that on.’ So, I filed the “Snogger” one away but since all this talk about different places and where you’ve been and what you’ve done, I’m afraid Snogger’s come to the front again so we’d better keep Snogger in, but I suppose I shall be getting somebody’s fist in my, in my face one of these days and saying, ‘Well, that’s my young lady so keep off.’ I’ll take it anyhow. Will that do?
SP: That is brilliant. So, John, I just want to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives for sharing your stories with us today.
JW: Good. Thank you very much. I have enjoyed it.
SP: It really has been a real honour to meet you. Thank you.
JW: Yes. It’s nice to see you darling and you’ll get a kiss before we go so come here. Yes. Thank you. Lovely. Thank you darling.
SP: Ok. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John 'Snogger' Watkins
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWatkinsJ180802, PWatkinsJ1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:02:00 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Bahamas
Canada
Great Britain
India
Sri Lanka
Singapore
United States
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
Bahamas--Nassau
Bahamas
Italy
Italy--Mount Etna
India--Chennai
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
John Watkins was working in retail in Rotherham and in 1939 he joined 218 Squadron ATC. He joined the RAF in February 1942 at RAF Cardington, and did his initial training at Blackpool. In December 1942 he did his wireless training at RAF Yatesbury. His first role was as a ground personnel wireless operator at RAF Scampton in 1943. He next went to RAF Madeley to complete his aircrew training and then to 10 Gunnery School in Barrow in Furness. In early 1944 he went to the USA, via Canada. He was posted to 111 OTU in Nassau in the Bahamas to train on Liberator and Mitchell aircraft. On his return to the UK he converted to the Catalina and later the Sunderland flying boats. His original crew set off from Northern Ireland to fly to India, but due to a medical issue he didn’t fly with them and his crew were killed enroute. He finished his career flying on operations for Coastal Command in India and the Far East. He was personally upset by the condition of the ex-prisoners of war of the Japanese he and his crew ferried from bases.
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1942-02-26
1943-06-24
1944-01-16
1945
1946
Contributor
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Julie Williams
205 Squadron
5 Group
617 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
B-24
Catalina
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
prisoner of war
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Cardington
RAF Madley
RAF Scampton
RAF Yatesbury
Sunderland
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/786/9341/PWildesJE180829.1.jpg
20072f7f64debe87ec906cbfd6e26011
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/786/9341/AWildesJE180829.1.mp3
e631f87cbb026ea8770f4a9901045618
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wildes, Jim
James Ernest Wildes
J E Wildes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with James Wildes (1923 - 2019, Royal Air Force).
He failed aircrew selection due to ear problems and so served as ground personnel.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wildes, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH: That’s great. Well, first of all Jim I’m delighted to come and meet you today and listen to, to your story. I know a little about you. I hope to when I leave at the end to know far more. Ok. There’s a little bit I’ve just got to say at the start so that people listening to this back at the Bomber Command Centre know exactly where we are and what we’re doing. So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Martyn Hordern. That’s myself. The interviewee is James Wildes. The interview is taking place at the Tri Services and Veteran Support Centre, Hassell Street, Newcastle, Staffordshire. Also present is Peter Batkin who is a friend of Jim. The date is the 29th of August 2018 and the time by my watch is quarter past eleven in the morning. I know from just talking to you Jim that you were born on the 18th of July 1923. Where was that then? Where were you born?
JW: Burton on Trent.
MH: Ok. Tell me a bit about your parents and your family life as, as a lad.
[pause]
JW: We lived with my, my dad and mother and the tribe that, because she had six children and I was the eldest lived in South Oxford Street, Burton on Trent. My dad was out of work for seven or eight years during the recession of that time. My mother was a tailoress and she worked from home reversing coats and that sort of thing because that was the way you lived those days.
MH: Did your, did your dad serve in the First World War?
JW: Yes. He was in the Staffordshires.
MH: How long did he serve during the war?
JW: He served in the, in the First World War and a little bit afterwards in Ireland. I don’t think he’d signed on. It was like it was at the end of —
MH: Yeah.
JW: The Second World War. You could do another year before you got home.
MH: So, so as a young lad what did, I take it you went to school. What age did you leave school?
JW: Fourteen.
MH: Ok.
JW: Because of my birthday coming in July I did the eleven plus twice. The first time I failed. The second time I got enough to pass to secondary school. Not to Grammar School. But my mother couldn’t afford uniform so we got a deal where I went to Union Street one day per week at government expense.
MH: Right. And then when you left school what did you do?
JW: I was training to be an apprentice joiner and carpenter because my grandad, the other Ernie he, he was a master joiner. And I worked with him whenever I could from fourteen on but I had to have another job to support the family because he was a jobbing joiner that had contracted for jobs. We used to do South African Railway carriages and it all came pre-packed. And you always put in Baguleys of Burton on Trent and he would, he would, we would put it together like you do things these days. Cut it all in.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In South African Railways style.
MH: Right. So then the Second World War came along. You were —
JW: Well —
MH: You were just sixteen.
JW: I I’d, around about fourteen I joined the Boy’s Brigade and there was an RAF section in it of about four of us and on Sundays sometimes we went to Burnaston Aerodrome which is now a car factory and we could swing a Tiger Moth. And I got one flight of it because occasionally an RAF retired officer turned up to fly this thing.
MH: And that was the first time you ever went in a plane?
JW: Yes, was. That was my first time.
MH: So, so, the Second World War started. You were, you were just sixteen.
JW: Yes.
MH: What were you doing then?
JW: I I was still doing, well I eventually got, what happened was that, that the restrictions on my grandfather forced both he and I to join another joinery firm because there was no longer small businesses around. We were forced in to wartime things from 1938 so, I became a bound apprentice with Sharp Brother and Knight of Burton on Trent. Around about seventeen the Boy’s Brigade sent me to Cardington for an interview for aircrew which I failed because I’d got bad ears and in those days those aircraft weren’t pressurised. So they, but I did the exam and they recommended and gave me a little notation that I go in to Derby when I was seventeen and half to recruit as a VR. Which I did.
MH: What’s a VR?
[pause]
JW: Volunteer Reserve.
MH: Right.
JW: Yes.
MH: Thank you. So, by that time we were sort of talking about towards the end of 1940 are we then, at that point?
JW: No. We’re talking about 1941.
MH: Right. In to, yeah.
JW: Early in 1941 that happened. At seventeen and a half I had to get my dad’s signature to be able to join the Air force which I did and took to Derby.
MH: What was your parents view of that at the time then? Seeing as you didn’t —
JW: Well, my dad didn’t want me to join but my mother said it’s alright.
MH: What was the reason your dad didn’t want you to join?
JW: Well, he’d been at, I think Mons during the First World War for some time.
MH: So, he’d been at the start.
JW: So, he’d been in that and he was on Gallipoli as well.
MH: So he, do you think he knew a bit more about what you were likely to face than what your mum did?
JW: Yes. Exactly.
MH: So, so you up at sixteen and a half. Where was the first place you —
JW: Well, I didn’t actually get in until June or July. They called me in.
MH: So you were just about eighteen then.
JW: Yes. And they followed the recommendation to send me to Halton for aircraft training, which I did. I went to Halton and joined the RAF. And I passed out second in an entry of about eighty people that were doing a joining course like, it was split in to two halves. A bit for engines and a bit for airframes and I was, I came second and was sent on for on the job training at Abingdon.
MH: Right.
JW: On Hampdens and Whitleys.
MH: Yeah. So where was Halton then? Whereabouts is Halton? I know where Abingdon is.
JW: Halton is Wendover. Very very near. Do you know Wendover?
MH: I’ve heard of it.
JW: Yes. Very near to Chequers.
MH: And Abingdon obviously became a car factory. A car factory wasn’t it?
JW: Yes. This Abingdon was, they trained you on, on real aircraft.
MH: Right. So —
JW: And then they took me back to once I was trained on. So that was my first [pause] Abingdon was 10 OTU and the Whitleys and Hampdens were flying aircraft. So that was Bomber Command.
MH: And what, what were you doing when you were there? You said on the job training. What was your, what was your, what were you trained?
JW: I was trained on, on the Abingdons and the Whitleys and also we strung up a a biplane as well. So I was trained mainly on aircraft rather than engines.
MH: Right. So, so you just, you just said stringing up a plane.
JW: Yeah.
MH: Now that, what’s that then?
JW: A biplane.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Where you, you were setting all the angles etcetera and I learned the fifty seven point three method of, of angles.
MH: And what’s, the fifty seven point three method?
JW: Well, if you, if you, you take [reckoning] of fifty seven point three in a circle, make a circle at that radius for every one unit is one degree all the way around the circle.
MH: Right. So —
JW: So, you could set controls, the rudders all that sort of thing by doing that. A mathematical job.
MH: And was there much difference between a biplane which was obviously getting almost obsolete at that point and then the bigger planes that you were working on?
JW: Well, the bigger planes were really had main spars which also held the undercarriage and that sort of thing. And usually there were [pause] they had bomb doors which worked with elastic. Those days the bomb dropped and opened the door [laughs]
MH: Yeah. Ok. So you’d done that initial training.
JW: Yes. And then Halton called me back to do the fitter course and and to give me the full trade because I came out first as an AC. I joined the RAF at AC2 level. So I, my first entry got me an AC1 at, at aircraft engineering level. But my second training I was fourth in the entry of fifty and that got me an LAC recommendation.
MH: What does LAC stand for?
JW: Leading aircraftsman. It’s like a lance corporal in the Army.
MH: And how long had you been in the RAF at that point?
JW: About, well my first course ended on March ’42. My second course I got posted in February ’43 after the end of the second course to Pershore which was another OTU opening up in Gloucestershire. So, and this was another. I was on Wellingtons so it was another Bomber Command area.
MH: And did, when you moved to a different aircraft were there similarities or were they things that you had to get used to all over again?
JW: Yeah. You had to get used to new things but on the second course at Halton they had embraced various changes that were taking place. And also on that second course they’d also embraced little bits about American aircraft as well as British aircraft and I was interested in American aircraft as well as British ones.
MH: So, you were at Pershore.
JW: So, I went to Pershore.
MH: OTU is operational —
JW: 23 OTU.
MH: Operational Training Unit.
JW: Yes. It was just opening up. We had no aircraft at all. The hangar wasn’t open. The workmen were still working on it. The cookhouse was an open cookhouse because that part wasn’t built but we were in the four huts that were built. One of the four huts that were, were starting the unit off. We had no aircraft at all and one arrived about two weeks after I arrived at Pershore. There was, we put it out on a distant little field, picketed it down for the night and we were bombed that night. But it didn’t get the aircraft. It got little bits near to the hangar.
MH: So you, the plane you basically moved the plane away from the main buildings for that reason.
JW: Yes. That’s right. Picketed it down.
MH: Yeah. What sort of strip was it there? Was it hardstanding or was it grass?
JW: Hardstanding.
MH: So it would be tarmac. Tarmac.
JW: Yes. The strip was there and we picketed on one of the, on one of the ends. There were several different areas and we picketed on one of those.
MH: So how long before you started getting more planes?
JW: We then got the planes at about one a week for a few weeks and then two or three a week and these were delivered direct from the manufacturer and our job was to bring them up to standard. Put the turrets in. The extra seating. All the little bits that went in for radar and various things that was coming in. And we dispersed those to other airfields down Gloucestershire and Worcestershire.
MH: So, so it sounds like there was a lot to do to get those planes ready.
JW: Yes. By that time the hangar was going so we had a corner of the hangar that we would be a team. As the aircraft came from the makers they came completely empty with ballast in place of things. So you were getting the ballast out, putting the turrets in in place of the ballast and the various other things that you had to do like second pilot seats and various things. There was cable cutters to put in to the wings in case the Wimpie was flying and had to cut a cable on a balloon.
MH: So how long did that take to get a plane from from you receiving it from the factory to then being ready to to actually start to fly?
JW: Well, it probably on the team turn out one a week once we were geared up to do so.
MH: And how many were on your team?
JW: And there would probably be an engine fitter, an airframe fitter, an electrician would do two or three teams. Same with an instrument man and the radio people came in when they were needed.
MH: Right. So, so you, over a period of time you’ve all had these planes slowly coming from the factory.
JW: And being dispersed.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In Worcestershire and Gloucestershire and at various aerodromes like.
MH: Right.
JW: There was many. So, there was about eight aerodromes down that, all being built.
MH: Yeah.
JW: And —
MH: So, so was Pershore the hub for all these to come in to, in to —
JW: All these.
MH: And you would get them ready.
JW: Yes.
MH: And then you would move them out.
JW: Yeah.
MH: So, so was that basically all your job entailed? Oh, that sounds a bit disrespectful.
JW: Yes, I —
MH: But was that all just basically like a production line of planes coming in and going out.
JW: And going out. Yes.
MH: So was there, was there any flying at Pershore? Was it a flying airfield as well?
JW: Oh yes. It was an airfield, and flew. It had its own aircraft as well.
MH: Right.
JW: Probably about eight I think that got it in two. It was 23 OTU but they got it in A and B Flights or they might have even had C.
MH: Yeah.
JW: But they got about eight aircraft of their own on dispersals which I didn’t take part in.
MH: No.
JW: Because I was in the teams that were shoving them out.
MH: Yeah. So the A and B flights had their own mechanics.
JW: Yeah. They were mechanics rather than fitters.
MH: So, so what was it like fitting, fitting a turret to, how many turrets did you fit into a Wellington then?
JW: Well, the, we were on Wellington 3s and that was the, the advanced turret for the rear end because Wellington bombers you couldn’t get out of the turret excepting back in to the aircraft. It didn’t have enough angle. But the Wellington 3 did and if you had to eject in the air it could turn round and the man could fall out of the turret.
MH: Right.
JW: And bale out.
MH: So how long did you stay at Pershore doing that sort of work?
JW: September ’43. [pause] September ’43 I got a posting to 206 Squadron. They was at Benbecula flying Hudsons but I didn’t get there because I got part way there, as far as Wick, by Aberdeen and they turned me back to Liverpool. Gave me a new warrant to get to Liverpool and then across the water to the Wirral to an Army unit because 206 Squadron Benbecula were breaking up in flights and I was on what was called 8206 which was a Combined Ops Unit and I joined this Army unit as the RAF and some people had come already from Benbecula. There was about fifty of us altogether in the RAF forming up to go to go to, eventually to the Azores but we weren’t given the information.
MH: But you didn’t know where you were going.
JW: We didn’t know where we were going.
MH: So, what was the, so you were there. How many were there from the RAF then?
JW: There was about, well there was supposed to be a thousand RAF, a thousand Army and a thousand Navy.
MH: Right. So it was a big outfit.
JW: Yes. Because where ever we were going it was a Combined Ops Unit. We were, we were liable to have to be under canvas for a certain length of time.
MH: So how long were you? You say you were on the Wirral? Do you know?
JW: Well, about two weeks. We, we had got certain bits of kit and a sten gun and a little bit of training and square mess tins. We had to hand our round tins in for square mess tins.
MH: Were rounds ones particular to the RAF I take it?
JW: No. The round ones were on issue to everybody at that time.
MH: Right.
JW: But the square mess tin fitted the, the ration packs that were coming in.
MH: Yeah.
JW: At that time. So, we had to have a square mess tin.
MH: And you said you got some training with a sten gun so you were taught to shoot were you then?
JW: We were taught to shoot. We were taught a little bit about self-defence. We were taught to use our mess tins and given a mug which was china and needless to say you soon broke the mug.
MH: So, so what, what did you think when suddenly you’d gone from fitting turrets on to Wellingtons to now you’re on the Wirral in this this other unit of soldiers and other, and sailors and suddenly they’re teaching you to fire guns.
JW: Well, we were there about two weeks kitting out etcetera and then we, we joined, they brought us back to Liverpool dock, the Liver Dock and we joined the Franconia which was a troop ship. And that night we sailed across the water to Bangor Harbour where the rest of the people came in. The rest of the three thousand people came in. I was only on a unit of about fifty which was 8206. There were other RAF people around but we did different units.
MH: Did you know where you were going at that point?
JW: No. That, that same evening we must have left Bangor because when we woke up on, on we were below decks and the weather broke up the next morning.
MH: I’m going to just pause there.
[recording paused]
MH: Right. Just to explain to people listening to this recording we’ve just a very important thing which was sorting out lunch for Jim and Pete. So, we’re just starting again. So, you were just at the point where you’d set sail.
JW: We’d sailed.
MH: You were below decks and you woke up the next morning.
JW: We woke up the next morning and we’d come out of Bangor and we were now heading west. Due west. And this went on for about two days and we thought, everyone thought we’re going to Iceland because we were going in that direction. Suddenly we turned left and started in a southerly direction. This went on for about another day and we joined up with a, with a Navy ship. A Destroyer, and he was hovering around us and about four days later we overtook a flotilla of merchant ships that had other Navy ships around them and an aircraft carrier. And at that time our officers were drawn in to tell us that we were going to land in the Azores.
MH: Which was part of Portugal, wasn’t it?
JW: Which was part of Portugal.
MH: A neutral country.
JW: And this was before Winston Churchill had announced anything about this island.
MH: Right.
JW: This, this island was called Terceira. It was a small volcanic island with [barefoots] so we were all given the necessary jabs up our backsides because they were worried about plagues and that sort of thing. And then we arrived on a Sunday afternoon. The, there was a big Navy ship offloading boats to get us from the, from our ship and from the merchant ships to the shore.
MH: I take it there wasn’t a harbour as such then.
JW: On a little harbour called [pause] [unclear] or something like that. It was a little harbour. Anyway, we, we all assembled with our kit and of course the RAF volunteered [laughs] to go as soon as possible and we jumped in to these boats because the sea was rather rough, running at about ten foot, landing craft and got to shore where, where the other people that was before us were receiving all sorts of things ashore. And there was tea laid on but the rest of it was our own rations. So we went on shift. Four hours on two hours off day and night. And that’s how we spent that first night was working for four hours unloading things on the shore and the Army had put up [tents] and tents loosely to an area outside town on the side of a volcano.
MH: Right. So you spent all night unloading and sorting all your stuff out.
JW: Yeah. Well, the next morning 8206 were called together and we, we were told to put our stuff in to a lorry because we were going roughly twenty five mile across country to where we were going to build an Air Force station. We were going to lay plate runway to form a runway and dispersals. We would be in tents for up to a year and we would be on rations, our own rations but two hot meals a day. Breakfast and dinner. There would be no lights. It would just be an encampment in tents. Eight to a tent.
MH: So you started from scratch really.
JW: Yes. And we went over, that day we went over and we started laying, there was no aircraft around. We started laying a strip because the Army was ahead of us in their knocking walls down and things to make an airstrip and that afternoon the Seafires off the aircraft carrier landed on the strip that we’d already prepared.
MH: So you didn’t hang around then. You got it down quick fairly quickly.
JW: Hmmn?
MH: You got, you got your work —
JW: We got enough.
MH: To do that. Yeah.
JW: To land Seafires —
MH: Yeah.
JW: Down in that same afternoon. Because we’d gone first light in the morning and with, as, as strip runway came in we laid it.
MH: Right. How long did it take you to finish laying the full —
JW: Oh well, we were on that as well as our own aircraft. Two days later our aircraft came in from America and we were now on B17s.
MH: So, there’s no, you hadn’t got any British planes as such it was just —
JW: Pardon?
MH: Had you got any British planes there? Bombers or were they —
JW: No. No. No. We had the Seafires. They used, they were on a dispersal and they flew from their own dispersal and they’d somehow or another got one or two people over to help them out. We refuelled from Jerry cans with, because it was all over the wing refuelling and we had no tankers whatsoever. We refuelled from Jerry cans in to a funnel with a, with a filter at the bottom.
MH: It took a bit longer to fill up then normal then.
JW: Oh, good lord, it was. We had no no tanker. A few weeks later, about a fortnight later I went over, I was given civilian overalls to go to the main island to see if we could find a fuel storage unit because Jerry cans were such a pain to refuel with. You know. A five, you could damage the aircraft let alone anything else.
MH: So, you’d got these B17s. were they piloted by American crews?
JW: They, they were piloted by British crews.
MH: Right.
JW: And they were marionised with a radar unit that came down the fuselage and out at the tail wheel. And this was a Canadian unit and they brought one Canadian with them who taught us to, how to polish the wave guide because it was a five inch wave guide and the magnetron was in like a Smith’s biscuit tin which we had to take the lid off every day and polish up the, the prongs.
MH: So was that a particular piece of kit for what they were doing?
JW: No. They —
MH: Or just a general.
JW: The Canadians. It was apparently used for fishing. To find shoals of fish but they’d adapted it to find submarines.
MH: Right.
JW: And so with sonar buoys at strategic places and the mathematics of it all and we had all sorts of radio aerials along the roof of the, of the B17 they could bring in the Navy or the merchant ship, carry their own depth charges if they had to do and find not fish but submarines.
MH: A clever idea. Do you remember what squadron that was?
JW: We were, it was 206 Squadron. We were, we were still 8206 [coughs] because we were like the maintenance team for the squadron.
MH: So, when —
JW: And then about [coughs] that probably went on until about [pause] well I broke a finger just before Christmas and had to have like a tennis racket where it pulled it all out. It did heal in the end so I was, I was in hospital. A Portuguese hospital run, a ward run by the, by the Army or Navy or RAF over Christmas day. But I was only in for about three days after Christmas and when I got back to the unit which was, which the Army had made us like a servicing bay knocking a lump out of, out of the volcano edging because we were like now probably three or four hundred foot above the sea level. When we, when I got back to them there was now 209 Squadron as well as 206 Squadron there so we were getting we had about nine aircraft, B17s, altogether.
MH: And these were all equipped with the same instrumentation to find submarines.
JW: Yes. They had the same. The same sort of kit on and they’d come with the 209 Squadron crews which we, we only saw them come to the aircraft, fly them and that was it and then they’d be gone to where ever they were billeted.
MH: Right. And did, how successful were they at catching submarines? Did you ever get to hear?
JW: Well, I think that it assisted the Navy. They certainly got one submarine as we were coming. The Navy got one submarine as we were coming to land originally because there was subs in that area and they certainly were feeding the subs on the surface and we, because the, the Canary Islands were supplying fuel for all these subs and things.
MH: Right. Because they were under Spain which was fascist, wasn’t it?
JW: They were in Spain you see and we knew that this was happening so we were always overflying that, those areas.
MH: Right.
JW: So, I think they certainly altered the name of the game for, for the ships that were refuelling submarines.
MH: So, it seems to me that at times you were perhaps only aware of what work you were doing. You didn’t see —
JW: Yes.
MH: The pilots flying the planes.
JW: That’s right. Yes.
MH: You didn’t find out how successful. You just did your job.
JW: I did my job. I was sent once to try to get a fuel tanker from the main island which is St Miguel or something like that of the Azores. And that was the only time I’d been at sea again. There was a sergeant sent with me and I was like a lance corporal.
MH: Right. So how long were you in the Azores for? Did that go on for a while?
JW: In, let me see [pause] can I just have a second to look at it?
MH: Of course, you can.
JW: I’ve had to pick this up from my records. [pause] Well, in about April they told us to, to shift all our inventories to 209 Squadron.
MH: This was 1944 at this point.
JW: So, that was 1944. April 1944, because our aircrew had gone back to Blighty and there was only 209 aircrew left on the island now to run these eight or nine B17s. We were told that we were being moved back to Blighty as a squadron. We didn’t know where to but what we knew was we were going back by Skymaster to [pause] to the western side of Africa and then flying on to Blighty by Skymasters because by now the Americans were bringing Skymasters in quite quickly, several a day and even Mitchells were coming through. They were using the airfield as a staging post and incidentally in January a new flotilla of of ships arrived bringing more stuff to the island because we’d been on our own for six months and used up nearly everything we’d brought. So, they’d brought in 209 Squadron servicing crew by ship. They’d brought in all sorts of materials to make decent Nissen huts for people to live in. We were still under canvas and remained under canvas until we moved.
MH: What was the weather like?
JW: Damp. It was the Azores. It’s good, goodish weather. It’ll grow small bananas and that sort of thing but it’s damp and there’s quite a lot of, quite a lot of rain.
MH: So not necessarily the best conditions to be under canvas.
JW: No. No.
MH: Were you aware that point how the war was going elsewhere? What were you hearing?
JW: Yes. We had a newspaper that came around. I think it was originally once a month and now it was probably a weekly one called, “The Azores Times.” I think. And we, we were kept assured of what was going on in Blighty. Anyway, we eventually got home piecemeal between Casablanca and, and the tip of Cornwall where we landed at, the Skymasters landed at St Mawgan. So I was home about May and the, the officer in charge said, ‘Ah, your squadron is at St Eval.’ So, he got me a garrey to get me to St Eval.
MH: Whats a garrey?
JW: A garrey is a lorry.
MH: Right. Right.
JW: To get me to St Eval. And there I, I was back with the rest of the lads. There was, we were the last two to get away from, from Casablanca because it was all done when we could get a flight.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Because there was mostly flights were for officers.
MH: Did you get a chance to have a walk around? Did you get in to town while you were in Casablanca? Did you get to see the sights?
JW: Oh yes. Yes. And I also did some work for the RAF unit because they were putting together American Lightnings as a twin boom Lightnings.
MH: Yeah P38s.
JW: Yes.
MH: So, so you get back to England.
JW: Yes.
MH: Was this just before D-Day and where —
JW: Yes. Yeah. This was about a week before D-Day and I was put on night shift. We lived at Morganporth in a commandeered hotel and we had dry rations. We didn’t have anything to do with St Eval as, as a unit. We were, we were on a dispersal about the furthermost away. They did bring a hot meal in. If you were on days you got it at lunchtime. If you were on nights you got it about two in the morning. So we were always kept. Had a hot meal on site. But we were permanently on site on twelve hours shifts. Twelve on. Twelve off.
MH: So were you with the squadron at this point in time or just with the, like —
JW: Yes. This was 206 Squadron.
MH: Right. Ok.
JW: We’ve now changed to Liberators by the way. We, the aircrew had adapted to Liberators.
MH: And did you have to do much to catch up in terms of work —
JW: Well, it was a question of a Liberator is another aircraft and you get used to knowing that aircraft are aircraft.
MH: And what were you, what was your job at that time? What were you were working on?
JW: Well, again being an LAC I I ran a little team of people.
MH: Right.
JW: About three mechanics. Three or four. Usually an engine mechanic, an air frame mechanic and one wanderer like an electrician or instruments or both.
MH: And what, what operations were the squadron involved in around about at that time?
JW: We were putting an anti-submarine because the Liberators were also anti- submarine. I don’t know quite what type because they didn’t seem to have the same scanners as a B17 so I didn’t know anything about that side of what they were scanning.
MH: And where were, where were—
JW: It must have been some sort of radar.
MH: Yeah. And what areas were they operating?
JW: They, they were covering Brest to the Irish Sea for anti-submarine block.
MH: And, and we were obviously getting around to D-Day at this point in time. Were you aware that that was, happened or, you know, you just carry on as normal? Or did you —
JW: Well, on I think it was the 5th of, was it June? D-Day.
MH: Yeah. 6th of June was the actual —
JW: The 6th. On the night of the 5th I was on duty that night and about five in the morning just as day was breaking there was a flotilla. A flotilla of B17s, Americans all painted up with the white stripes you know and there must have been a couple of hundred come over us at about 5 in the morning. Came over the top of us and flew on towards France. So that must have been the start of D-Day.
MH: And then how did your, how did 206 Squadron sort of carry on doing duty?
JW: We used, on our tannoy system which was separate to the station system if there was sighting of a U-boat they would send the message over and tell us what was happening by the air crew and two or three evenings we were told they were chasing U-boats and dropping DCs.
MH: Depth charges.
JW: Depth charges.
MH: So, so that was almost like a real time. You were told as it was happening.
JW: Yeah. Happening in real time.
MH: They’d relay. They’d relay the radio messages.
JW: Well, we went on for about a week there and then suddenly they said, ‘Well, go and take what you can of your kit. Bring in your kit. Bring in everything you’ve got. Take what you can of ground equipment because you’re going up to Leuchar, Scotland as a part of a unit of 206. Leaving some people in 206 looking after what they were looking after and you’re going up by train to Leuchar to set up a similar system from Leuchar on the North Sea.’
MH: And that’s what you did. And how long did that go on for?
JW: This went, we, we brought our kit in. The train we’d loaded what we could of ground equipment and tools and all that. Things that we think, thought we’d need. And we were at, we went up by slow train to Leuchar. This took about, there was rations put on so we had rations on the way and I think when we got to Leuchar there was a hot meal laid on and we went straight to the flight and some of our aircraft were now landing at Leuchar. Some of the, some of the Liberators were landing at Leuchar and in the Leuchar base was very near the sea because Leuchar is on a small island, just by the golf course and in on the sea front there was the RAF unit that ran MTBs. Motor torpedo boats. So we communicated with them that what would happen. We’d site where, where U-boats were and they would go out and see if they would surrender or, or get DC’d.
MH: And how long were you at Leuchar for?
JW: Probably a fortnight because in Leuchar they were asking, by then they were asking for people to go to India and, and look at the Far East. And there were people, they were looking for people that were single. Not married.
MH: You were still single at that time.
JW: So I was still single at that time so my CO said, ‘Will you volunteer?’ As usual. So, I was on my way then. I got a couple of days leave and down to, I think I went to Morecambe, I’m not sure. And a couple of days leave at home to Morecambe. Morecambe to Southampton by train and I found myself on the way to India at the [pause] when did I go to India? [pause] August 1944.
MH: Right.
JW: End of August. I landed actually in Calcutta. I landed at Worli. That’s the old, the old what’s it called now? In India.
MH: I’m not sure.
JW: Worli.
MH: I’m not sure about Worli because they’ve gone back to the original names not the anglicised names, haven’t they?
JW: Ceylon. Not.
MH: Oh, Sri Lanka are you on about? Sri Lanka? No.
JW: No. What’s Hollywood in [pause] Bollywood.
MH: Yeah.
JW: What town was that?
MH: I’m not sure to be honest. My Indian knowledge is not that good.
JW: I landed on that side of India.
MH: Yeah. Right.
JW: Caught a train across to Calcutta which wasn’t —
MH: It wasn’t Bombay. You’re not on about Bombay, are you?
JW: Bombay, landed Bombay. Worli. Caught a train the next day. A troop train going to Calcutta and we pushed it half the way.
MH: The train?
JW: It was a troop train so you’d, you’d go about four hours, five hours, something like that, all disembark for a hot cup of tea and your rations for that day. So you were still living on rations. Anyway, when I got to Calcutta I was posted to Dum Dum which was the Calcutta race course at that time. Now, it’s the airport but at that time it was just the racecourse. I was posted to a little unit called [pause] what was it called? Air Salvage and Servicing. It had three Dakotas that were all being modified to carry stuff externally as well as internally. And I was given my corporal tapes whilst I was on that unit because you couldn’t get permanent corporal. You could only be an LAC permanent. So each unit you went to you’d got to qualify to be an acting corporal.
MH: So what was, what was this air salvage —
JW: Air Salvage Unit. I joined a team, or I was in charge of a team as an acting corporal and we, we would be responsible for taking stuff in to the Burma area that was needed by squadrons. For instance on one occasion we, we took a, there was other teams taking things like Spitfires to pieces. We used to split the the Spitfire in to the engine, attach the prop off, the tail off and the empennage and one, one wing upside down with a fairing on the front hung by cables between, underneath the Dakota. The Spitfire we would fit inside the fuselage with the engine in the open doors which we dispersed with so we were now have got half of a Spitfire into a Dakota. We, we would go from Dum Dum to Agartala which was in Assam, north of the river, refuel and then fly on and in this particular instance to an airfield that you couldn’t get to in daytime because of volcanoes and things ad drop in there, offload my part of the gear. The pilot who was a Polish pilot that he had no, no navigational aids whatsoever. We, we used to fly, I used to fly with him and just follow the route that he told me to follow. Followed either a river or a railway line and just watch what was going on or fly a course where I was keeping to a course.
MH: And then, obviously you dropped off this Spitfire. Did you then bring —
JW: He came back for the other half.
MH: Right.
JW: And that would arrive the next morning.
MH: And then you had to put it together.
JW: And my, by that time we’d put as much of the Spitfire together with three of us as we could get together.
MH: Yeah. And was that something you did for quite a while in India?
JW: I did. I did Imphal Valley once. I did a lot of various drops. I worked for 31 Squadron for quite a while.
MH: What sort of squadron were they? Were they —
JW: They were another Dakota squadron.
MH: Right.
JW: That were supplying Chindits —
MH: Right.
JW: And people like the Chindits in, in Burma with mules. We even took mules in one day. I I wasn’t on that aircraft. That was one of our other aircraft.
MH: So how long did you stay in India for?
JW: Well, I, I was, I also did a trip from, starting at Agartala where, where I picked up a train load of Hurricanes because we couldn’t get the Hurricane. The Hurricane’s built differently to the Spitfire. You can’t get it in to a Dakota. You can get a wing on but you can’t get an outer wing. You can put on but you can’t get the centre section so we were taking Hurricanes and various other spares back to India to Kanpur which was the MU that put them together again. And this was a two week journey. Caught the, picked up the train and my rations and a sten gun. A colleague, there was two, always two of us on the train and apart from sten guns we had, we picked up a long range rifle. A Garand rifle for long distance shooting if, if we were being attacked. We would then go Cox’s Bazaar. Pick up some more kit there. Chittagong. Worked our way to the Brahmaputra point where the train would be offloaded and loaded on to barges and go up the Brahmaputra for about seven or eight hours to another port on the right hand side for, for narrow gauge use.
MH: Yes.
JW: And from there we would go, go to, to Kanpur and the whole journey would take about seven days if you were lucky. If you were unlucky it could take up to a fortnight.
MH: And when did you get back to the, get back to England then? How long before —
JW: Well, from that I went, I was on Ramree Island which is an island off Burma with 31 Squadron when the war ended. When the atom bomb, the second atom bomb dropped. And we were told to go to Mingaladon and be on, everybody at Mingaladon which was the bottom of Burma to wait for the Viceroy of India to come in and take the surrender which happened the next morning. We were all lined up. All the squadrons around were lined up along one side and in came the York with, with the Viceroy of India on. He got killed in Ireland, didn’t he?
MH: Lord Mountbatten.
JW: Lord Mountbatten. Yes. He took the salute from the, from the Japanese who gave him all the swords etcetera. And then we moved on. We, we were given the task of looking after 31 Squadron. I was now with 31 Squadron. Still on attachment [laughs] We, we were given Siam, Sumatra, land at Singapore but don’t take the salute there. And then go on to Java and Borneo. So I ended up in Java running, running B Flight aeroplanes. About four. Four aeroplanes and I had a crew of about two fitters and two, two engine men. And that’s when my release came through for Class B demob. So, the next morning I’d got my kit packed and an A Flight aircraft flew me back to Singapore. I I mounted a boat, got a boat from there to Southampton and was demobbed at Hednesford.
MH: And what date was that? Can you remember?
JW: 9th of the 3rd ’46.
MH: Right. Right. I understand, I don’t think your time in the RAF quite finished then, did it? Although you’d been demobbed.
JW: No. No. I I was discharged to complete my apprenticeship as a civvy which I did. I found I was then on a half a crown an hour for a fully fledged joiner. And I enquired of the firm I was working for, ‘What was my promotion? Would I get promotion?’ He said, ‘Well, when —' such and such dies —' he was about fifty at the time, I was about twenty two or four, something like that. ‘When he dies you or Johnny will get the job,’ because there was two of us. An Army lad that had done much the same as I had. So, I’d, I had notice from the Air Force that I could join for five years. Or four years or something of that nature and get my tapes back. So I wrote to the RAF. I’d done this prior to finishing my time. My civilian time. I wrote to the RAF and got a guarantee that I would be promoted to substantive corporal for the jobs that I’d done as an acting corporal and they gave me this. They said yes you will be but you’ll have to do three months on the job to prove that you’re capable.
MH: So, what squadron did you go back in to?
JW: So I went back to Swinderby for a four years, four year enlistment and that gave me a hundred and twenty five quid.
MH: And what, what did you do when you went back then? A similar sort of thing?
JW: Well, they had Wellington 20s by that time. Navigation. They were doing training navigation in Bomber Command. 17 OTU they were so they were Bomber Command again. And I was there until January ’51 in Swinderby. In 17 OTU.
MH: So what, what was your role then? What were you doing there?
JW: Again, I was what they called the piece of wind section which was the air and the, and the hydraulics. I ran a little section of of about three bodies. We did tyres as well. We did hydraulics. I did a little bit of work producing a better ground equipment than, than at that time we had because the RAF was very very short of decent ground equipment. So I’d mounted, because we were, we needed high pressure air on the Wellington 20s.
MH: Yeah. Was it different post-war than during the war? Was there a different atmosphere?
JW: It was gradually getting back to Wednesdays off you know. Wednesday afternoon was sports day and the, it just so happened that I met my wife at that time because the, the old diversion air field for Swinderby was Wigsley. And Wigsley was being used in the huts for people that had been in Germany for —
MH: Displaced persons.
JW: Displaced persons, and my wife was a displaced person.
MH: Right.
JW: That had recently come over and it just so happened I’d, we were doing circuits and bumps on the airfield and I’d sent one of my men over to do backstay checks on, once they’d landed you had to make sure the geometric lock was in the correct place before they could take off again and he said, ‘Hey, there’s a load of women over there.’ So off we went on our motorbikes.
MH: Right. So I understand at some point in time you worked on the Vulcan.
JW: Yes.
MH: Was that towards the end of your time?
JW: Well, [pause] where was I?
MH: You said you were at Swinderby until about 1950, weren’t you? Something like that.
JW: Yes. ’51. I’d done training courses to take Meteor 3s out to, out to Singapore. Unfortunately, the Makarios war took all our aircraft so although the Meteor 3s were on a boat loaded for Singapore we couldn’t get to them. So Singapore did their own lot and put the Meteor 3s in. But we were on posting anyway to Singapore as a unit and in January ’51 I landed in Singapore as a unit but because the Meteor 3s had been put in to service we were given another job in Singapore on Sunderlands which was another aircraft I didn’t know.
MH: No.
JW: And 205 and 220 Squadron were the squadrons but I was put in to the Maintenance Unit to bring up a beached aircraft. And it was at that point I got a wound on my left foot because putting, getting the thing up slip. They’re the last thing. You bring it up back to front and the last thing that happened was that the tow on one side towed before the other side, pulled the aircraft around with the ground equipment over my foot. That caused me problems that I still suffer today. We, we did Singapore, posted back to UK and to Stradishall. And it was from Stradishall that I I got my legs mended from the ‘51 thing in ’53. I I had them mended at, at an RAF hospital that near to Cambridge. I was at Stradishall in ’44 and was called to Melksham to go on to V bombers because my Fitter 1 training way back in my marriage days of ’48 was to Yatesbury to be a Fitter 1. Now, it had taken that time to sort out what the Fitter 1 really should be as an ASC and it was Melksham that we were sent to for coursing. And then on to AV Roes because again I passed out about fourth in the entry so we had the choice of aircraft. There was about fifty on the course but only the first ten went either on to Vulcans or Victors.
MH: So, so a massive —
JW: I chose Vulcans.
MH: Why did you choose Vulcans?
JW: Because it’s a better aircraft.
MH: Better in what way?
JW: Better in, even the Mark 1 which I had was a better aircraft. A much steadier aircraft for bombing.
MH: So you thought it was a better aircraft to maintain was it?
JW: A better aircraft all round. All the way round.
MH: Yeah.
JW: There was one advantage that the other aircraft had, the Victor had, was powered by by 220 volts rather than, rather than a 112 volt battery. That was the only advantage that I saw.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In that, but the Mark 2 Vulcan became a 220 anyway.
MH: So how long did you remain in the RAF for, Jim?
JW: Well, I remained on Vulcan 1s and XH477 was my allocated aircraft. I took that on board and flew with it on many occasions as ASC.
MH: Actually, in the plane.
JW: Oh yes.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Yes. Well, you’d, if the aircraft was on a given operation I could not fly with it. If the aircraft was on what they called a lone ranger or going to do a job like Butterworths which is the other side of Malaya or Australia or, for instance we did the George Ward’s thing in Rio de Janeiro and, and we did [pause] we inaugurated a president in Buenos Aires as well. So on those flight an ASC flew with the aircraft as the sixth seat.
MH: Just in case you needed to do maintenance while it was out there.
JW: Yes. Well, we usually took a servicing crew as well. These were Hermes aircraft for Buenos Aires. We’d take two Hermes with crews on board. Some for training for the actual inauguration because they, our second pilot was an AVM.
MH: Air Vice Marshall.
JW: Hmnn?
MH: Air Vice Marshall. AVM.
JW: Air Vice Marshall. A one-handed man that had lost his hand during the war. In Spitfire presumably. We were very [pause] we did those sorts of operations with ASC on the sixth seat so I I think I flew mostly most of the hours in my aircraft than any other crew. Eventually, I was given the chance of going on Mark 2s but I I sent my PV3 back to Air Ministry saying I was leaving the Air force in less than two years. So they called me to Air Ministry to query why and I explained that I I was really in a position where I had to find a civilian job that suited me. And I had already done twenty two years so wanted to be clear of the Air Force inside another three years. And I didn’t want to go on Mark 2s for that reason. So I was given the opportunity of handing my aircraft to what was my second dickie now which I did and going on SFTT work for [pause] for, for until I left the Air Force. Until I found a suitable job which I did with ICL.
MH: Where was that? In Stoke on Trent?
JW: In Stoke. And I found, I found the job with English Electric Leo Marconi which became a part of ICL. So I was initially at Kidsgrove in the electrical huts on the opposite site.
MH: Using a lot of skills that you learned in the RAF?
JW: Yeah. I was, well when the, when ICL was formed the name of the game was different because I I’d gone in using RAF skills and and various things but I was now offered a management job in ICL to look after the field problems of ICL. Forming and getting rid of various little units that had joined, made up ICL and making bigger units like the Arndale Centre at Manchester where I took eleven top floors in the Arndale Centre. Eleven to twenty two.
MH: Right.
JW: Without lifts initially.
MH: I can imagine. I think that you’ve told me an absolutely fascinating story of a lad from Burton who was going to be a carpenter. Doesn’t seem to ever have been much of a carpenter because he spent most of his time in the RAF but I suppose as you say you got a trade but —
JW: Yeah. Well, my, my trade fitted me up fine for ICL work.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In the field.
MH: So is there anything else from your RAF time you want to tell me about? Have we covered most of —
JW: I left in 1966. October. And I had a good, a good twenty two years with, with ICL.
MH: Afterwards —
JW: And manage with three pensions.
MH: Yeah.
JW: With them as well as an RAF pension.
MH: Right. That, that’s great. I’ve got no questions to ask. I said I’ll be writing some notes down but you did say that you could talk and you’ve just, you’ve told me all I want —
JW: Well, I’ve had to refer to this because I can’t remember it.
MH: No.
JW: I highlighted all the areas that were Bomber Command.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. No that’s great. Jim, can I thank you for giving your time? You’ve talked for about an hour and a half then. That’s brilliant.
JW: Well, I’m afraid that’s twenty two years.
MH: You’ve done very well to keep it —
JW: Of RAF.
MH: Yeah. So, so thank you very much. Thank you for all your service and thank you for your time today. The time is 12.48. I’m going to turn the recorder off in a second. I just need you to sign a form and then you two guys —
JW: Right.
MH: Can go and get dinner because I suppose you’re hungry. So thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for, for letting me speak to you today.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jim Wildes
Creator
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Martyn Horndern
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWildesJE180829, PWildesJE1801
Format
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01:33:21 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Jim was born in July 1923 in Burton on Trent and was the eldest of six children. His father served in the First World War. When Jim left school aged 14, he joined the Boys Brigade which had a Royal Air Force section and he had the chance to fly in a Tiger Moth. He trained to be an apprentice joiner and carpenter and worked with his grandfather who was a master joiner. He then joined Sharp Bros & Knight, timber and joinery manufacturers. When he was about 17, the Boys Brigade sent him to RAF Cardington for an air crew interview, which he failed due to ear problems. He then took the exam and was recommended to be a voluntary reserve.
When Jim was about 18, he was called up to go to RAF Halton for aircraft training, after which he was sent for further training at RAF Abingdon Operational Training Unit on Hampden and Witney aircraft. He was then sent back to RAF Halton to do a fitter course and then posted to 23 Operational Training Unit at RAF Pershore working on Wellingtons. After training Jim became a leading aircraftman. In September 1943 Jim was posted to 206 Squadron on the Wirral for about two weeks. The outfit totalled about 1,000 people from the Air Force, Army and Navy. His unit was then sent to the Liverpool docks to join the troop ship Laconia heading for Bangor and then on to Azores where 8206 Maintenance Unit built an Air Force station and runway. They stayed in tents with eight people for up to a year. Over Christmas Jim was in a Portuguese hospital for about three days with a broken finger. The unit went to Casablanca then to Cornwall just before D-Day. He was put on night shift at RAF St Mawgan with 206 Squadron working on Liberators. Following a trip to Scotland they were posted at Dundee with an air salvaging and servicing unit. Here he was made acting corporal and worked with 31 Dakota Squadron. When the war ended, he was flown to Singapore, got a boat to Southampton and was discharged to complete his apprenticeship as a joiner. Jim re-joined the Air Force and went back to RAF Swinderby for four years working on Wellingtons. There he met his future wife. In 1951 the unit went to Singapore to work on Sunderlands before being posted back home. Jim left in 1966 and worked for AV Roe until joining ICL in a management job.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Wirral
Scotland
Scotland--Dundee
Azores
North Africa
Morocco
Morocco--Casablanca
Singapore
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1943-09
1943-12
1966
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
206 Squadron
23 OTU
31 Squadron
B-17
B-24
C-47
ground personnel
Hampden
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Cardington
RAF Halton
RAF Pershore
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Swinderby
Sunderland
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/959/9420/PPopeKMJ18010065.1.jpg
42dcaff622d24e96ad5ef922f530a1e2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pope, Kenneth. Album
Description
An account of the resource
79 items. The album concerns Sergeant Kenneth Malcom John Pope, (b. 1924, 1876733 Royal Air Force). He completed 32 operations as a flight engineer with 467 Squadron from RAF Waddington. The album contains his log book, photographs, letters, and newspaper cuttings about the operations he took part in.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susan Elizabeth Kelly and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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K M J Pope
Date
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2018-02-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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2,000-ton Double RAF Blow
DRESDEN
German Achtungs indicate that Dresden, set ablaze by a double R.A.F. raid in the night, was bombed 12 hours later in daylight to-day by powerful Allied air fleets.
It was the first time that R.A.F. Bomber Command had been ordered to make a tactical attack at night in support of the Red Army, and it may be that Air Marshal Sir Charles Portal, Chief of the Air Staff, brought with him from Yalta instructions by the “Big Three” to deliver this and similar assaults whenever possible.
Minute-by-minute Nazi radio warnings reported a 300-mile-long bomber armada over Germany, going in from the west to-day, ending with “Achtung: the bombers are over Dresden and Prague.”
U.S. heavies were office [sic] reported over Gremany, and Forts and Liberators swarmed out over Britain’s East coast from dawn.
Two-Way Attack
Other Nazi radios reported bombers flying over Austria towards the Reich.
Eight hundred R.A.F. heavies in a double raid in the night had rained well over 2000 tons of bombs on Dresden as Marshal Koniev’s Red Army, 70 miles away, raced along the roads to this vital German base for the defence of Eastern Germany.
Four hours after the first R.A.F. attack the second force went in. Great fires were left and the whole city was blanketed in smoke. There was one giant explosion.
Lancaster crews bombing Dresden last night could see the East Front battle. “As we left the target I could see endless fires and explosions in the east.” Said Flight-Sergeant Frank Bramley, a mid-upper gunner from Toronto.
“The Russians were laying down all kinds of stuff on the Germans. Gun flashes spattered all along the Western Front as well, but it did not compare with the East Front.
Crews said the raid was “bang on.” “Dresden was one mass of fires.” Said one pilot. “They won’t manufacture much war stuff there for some time to come.”
[underlined]
Twenty Third Operation
DRESDEN
Tuesday Night. February 13th 1945.
Airborne 9hrs 50mins
[/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Twenty third operation Dresden
Description
An account of the resource
Handwritten note giving brief details of the operation and a relevant newspaper cutting titled 'Dresden. 2,000-ton double RAF blow'.
Identifier
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PPopeKMJ18010065
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
Format
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One handwritten note and two newspaper cuttings on an album page
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Andy Hamilton
B-17
B-24
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Lancaster
propaganda
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/971/10025/MMolloyS[Ser -DoB]-160212-01.pdf
31dff3d389965a32008336afe506ab34
Dublin Core
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Title
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Molloy, Shae
S Molloy
Description
An account of the resource
One Luftwaffe intelligence file on Allied aircraft.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Shae Molloy and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Molloy, S
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Partial transcription]
Frontnachrichtenblatt der Luftwaffe
Nicht zum Feindflug mitnehmen!
Der Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe
Führungsstab I C
Sonderausgabe:
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte
Teil I: Britishe Kriegsflugzeuge (einschl. Der USA-Lieferungen)
Teil II: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.
Teil III: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union
Leistungen und Bilder
Stand: 1. September 1942
INHALT
Vorbemerkungen Anlagen 1 und 2
Teil I: Britische Kriegsflugzeuge (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen)
Hoheitsabzeichen der britischen Kriegsflugzeuge Anlage 3
Leistungstabellen Grossbritannien (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen) Anlagen 4a-4c
Schattenrisse im Maßstab 1:1000 der wichtigsten britischen Kriegsflugzeuge Anlagen 5a-5e
Westland “Lysander” Anlagen 6a-6c
Hawker “Hurricane I” Anlagen 7a, 7b
Hawker “Hurricane II C” Anlagen 8a-8c
Supermarine “Spitfire I” Anlagen 9a, 9b
Supermarine “Spitfire V” Anlagen 10a, 10b
Supermarine “Spitfire” (Aufkl.) Anlage 10c
Westland “Whirlwind” Anlagen 11a-11c
Boulton & Paul “Defiant” Anlagen 12a, 12b
Bristol “Beaufighter I” Anlagen 13a, 13b
Bristol “Blenheim-Fighter” Anlagen 14a, 14b
Bell “Airacobra” (P-39) Anlagen 15a-15c
Brewster “Buffalo” (F2A-2) Anlagen 16a-16c
Lockheed “Lightning” (P-38) Anlagen 17a-17c
Grumman “Martlet” (F4F-3 “Wildcat”) Anlagen 18a-18c
North American “Mustang” (P-51)Anlagen 19a-19c
Curtiss “Tomahawk” (P-40B) Anlagen 20a, 20c, 20d
Curtiss “Kittyhawk” (P-40E) Anlagen 20b, 20d
Curtiss “Warhawk” (P-40F) Anlagen 20d
Bristol “Beaufort” Anlagen 21a-21c
Bristol “Blenheim I” Anlage 22
Bristol “Blenheim IV” (“Long-nosed”) Anlagen 23a, 23b
Bristol “Blenheim VIII“ Anlage 23c
Handley-Page “Halifax I” Anlagen 24a-24c
Handley-Page “Halifax II” Anlage 24d
Handley-Page “Hampden” Anlagen 25a-25c
Handley-Page “Hereford” Anlage 25d
Avro “Lancaster” Anlagen 26a-26c
Avro “Manchester” Anlagen 27a-27c
De Havilland D. H. 98 “Mosquito” Anlage 28
Short “Stirling” Anlagen 29a-29c
Vickers “Wellington I” Anlage 30b
Vickers “Wellington II” Anlage 30c
Vickers “Wellington III” Anlagen 30a, 30c
Armstrong-Whitworth “Whitley V” Anlagen 31a-31c
Martin “Baltimore” Anlagen 32a, 32b
Martin “Maryland” Anlagen 33a-33c
Lockheed “Hudson” (A-29) Anlagen 34a-34c
Lockheed “Ventura” Anlage 35
Douglas “Boston” (A-20A) Anlagen 36a-36c
Boeing “Fortress I” (B-17 C, D) Anlagen 37a-37c
Boeing “Fortress II” (B-17 E)Anlagen 38a, 38b
Consolidated “Liberator” (B-24) Anlagen 39a-39c
Brewster “Bermuda” (SB2A-1 “Bucaneer”) Anlagen 40a-40c
Vought-Sikorsky “Chesapeake” (SB2U-3 “Vindicator”) Anlagen 41a-41c
Curtiss “Cleveland” (SBC-3) Anlagen 42a-42c
Fairey “Seafox” Anlage 43
Supermarine “Walrus” Anlage 44
Saro “Lerwick” Anlagen 45a-45c
Short “Sunderland” Anlagen 46a-46c
Consolidated “Catalina” (PBY-5 “Catalina”) Anlagen 47a-47c
Consolidated “Coronado” (PB2Y-3 “Coronado”) Anlagen 48a, 48b
Martin “Mariner” (PBM-2 “Mariner”) Anlagen 49a, 49b
Fairey “Fulmar” Anlagen 50a, 50b
Blackburn “Roc” Anlagen 51a-51c
Fairey “Albacore” Anlagen 52a-52c
Fairey “Swordfish” Anlagen 53a, 53b
Blackburn “Skua” Anlagen 54a-54c
Northrop N-3PB Anlage 55
Bristol “Bombay” Anlage 56
De Havilland “Flamingo”, “Hertfordshire”Anlage 57
General Aircraft “Hotspur II” Anlagen 58a, 58b
Teil II: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.
Hoheitsabzeichen Anlage 59
Allgemeines Anlage 60
Leistungstabellen USA Anlagen 61a, 61b
Schattenrisse im Maßstab 1:1000 der wichtigsten USA.-Kriegsflugzeuge Anlagen 62a, 62b
North American O-47Anlage 63
Curtiss O-52 Anlage 64
Republic P-43 “Lancer” Anlage 65
Republic P-47 “Thunderbolt” Anlage 66
Douglas A-24 Anlage 67
North American B-25B Anlage 68b
North American B-25C “Mitchell” Anlagen 68a, 68c
Martin B-26 “Marauder”Anlagen 69a, 69b
Douglas SBD-3 “Dauntless” Anlage 70
Curtiss SB2C-1 “Helldiver” Anlagen 71a, 71b
Vultee V-72 “Vengeance” Anlagen 72a, 72b
Vought-Sikorsky SO2U “Kingfisher” Anlage 73
Curtiss SO3C-1 “Seagull” Anlage 74
Boeing PBB-1 “Sea Ranger” Anlage 75
Consolidated 31 Anlage 75
Vought-Sikorsky F4U-1 “Corsair” Anlage 76
Douglas TBD “Devastator” Anlage 77
Grumman TBF “Avenger” Anlage 78
Transportflugzeuge Anlagen 79, 80
Lastensegler Anlage 81
Kleinluftschiff (sog. “Blimp”) Anlage 81
Teil III: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union
Hoheitsabzeichen Anlage 82
Allgemeines Anlagen 83a, 83b
Leistungstabellen Sowjet-Union Anlage 84
Schattenrisse im Maßstab 1:1000 der wichtigsten Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union....Anlagen 85a-85c
R-5 Anlage 86
R-10 Anlagen 87a, 87b
I-15 bis Anlage 88
I-153 Anlagen 89a, 89b
I-16 Anlagen 90a, 90b
JAK-1 Anlagen 91a, 91b
MIG-1, -3 Anlagen 92a, 92b
LAGG-3 Anlagen 93a, 93b
SB (bisher SB-2) Anlage 94
SB (bisher SB-3) Anlagen 95a, 95b
AR-2 Anlagen 96a, 96b
DB-3 Anlagen 97a, 97b
DB-3F Anlagen 98a, 98b
JAK-4 Anlage 99
PE-2 Anlagen 100a, 100b
SU-2 Anlagen 101a, 101b
IL-2 Anlagen 102a, 102b
ER-2 Anlage 103
TB-7 Anlage 104
KOR-1 Anlage 105
MBR-2 Anlagen 106a, 106b
MDR-6 Anlage 107
GST Anlage 108
TB-3 Anlage 109a, 109c
PS-84 Anlagen 109b, 109c
U-2 Anlage 110
UT-1 Anlage 111
UT-2 Anlage 111
JAK-7 Anlage 112
Teil I: Britische Kriegsflugzeuge (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen)
Achtung!
Wichtige Vorbemerkungen!
In den Leistungstabellen sind die Flugzeuge der USA.-Herkunft durch entsprechende Überschrift kenntlich gemacht und die militärische und Werksbezeichnung in USA. in der Spalte “Bemerkungen” angeführt.
Bei den Schattenrissen im Maßstab 1:1000 tragen die Anlagen links oben die Überschrift:
“Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien (einschl. USA.-Lieferungen)
Diejenigen Flugzeugmuster, die bei der britischen und bei der USA.-Fliegertruppe eingesetzt sind, tragen in Klammern unter der britischen militärischen Bezeichnung auch die militärische Bezeichnung in USA.
Bei den Bildtafeln und Bewaffnungsskizzen wird unterschieden a) zwischen den Mustern britischer Herkunft, b) den Mustern amerikanischer Herkunft, die nur bei der britischen Luftwaffe eingesetzt werden und c) den Mustern, die bei der britischen und USA.-Fliegertruppe Verwendung finden.
Die unter c) angeführten Muster werden in Teil II “Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.” nicht mehr angeführt.
Die Anlagen tragen deshalb in Teil I links oben folgende unterschiedliche Bezeichnungen:
Zu a) Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien
Zu b) Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien (Herkunft USA.)
Zu c) Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte” Grossbritannien und USA.
Im Fall b) werden die USA.-Werksbezeichnungen in “Fußnoten” gebracht.
Im Fall c) werden die militärischen USA.-Bezeichnungen in Klammern hinter der britischen Benennung, die USA.-Werksbezeichnungen in Fußnoten gebracht.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte - Anlage 1
Vorbemerkungen:
1. Die Steigzeiten werden auf 0,5 min, die Dienstgipfelhöhe auf 0,5 km, die Geschwindigkieten auf 5 km/st abgerundet.
2. Bei den Motorenleistungen sind die Höchstleistungen und dahinter die Höhe angegeben, in der die Höchstleistung des betreffenden Motorenmusters erzielt wird.
3. In der Rubrik bew. MG.-Stände/ MG. in den Tabellen (Anlagen 4a – 4c, 61 a, 61 b und 84) bedeutet die obere Zahl die Anzahl der Mg.-Stände, die untere Zahl die Gesamtzahl der MG. Die Anordnung der einzelnen MG. siehe Bewaffnungsskizze des betr. Musters.
4. Flugdauer und Gesamtflugstrecke sind naturgemäß abhängig vom Grad der Drosselung. Die Flugdauer kann sich schätzungsweise rund in den Grenzen 1:3 bewegen, die Gesamtflugstrecke in den Grenzen 1:2. Die angegebene Flugdauer und Gesamtflugstrecke bezieht sich zumeist auf eine mittlere Drosselung von etwa 66% oder auf die angeführte Marschgeschwindigkeit.
5. Unter normaler Flugstrecke und normaler Eindringtiefe sind die Werte bei größter Bombenlast angegeben.
6. Die Leistungen und näheren Angaben der Flugzeuge für mehrere Verwendungszwecke werden nur in der Tabelle der Hauptverwendung angeführt.
7. Bei Unterschieden zu den Angaben der früher herausgegebenen Leistungstabellen sind die Angaben in den Zusammenstellungen dieses Heftes maßgebend.
8. Bei der Betrachtung der Bilder ist zu berücksichtigen, daß die Tarnbemalung entsprechend den verschiedenen Kriegsschauplätzen verschieden ist.
Alle Angaben sind nach dem Stande vom 1. September 1942 neu bearbeitet.
Die in den bisherigen Frontnachrichtenblättern erschienenen Bilder und Zeichnungen der wichtigsten Kriegsflugzeuge sind, soweit brauchbar, wiederholt und ergänzt, die Leistungsangaben berichtigt worden.
Vorliegendes Sonderheft zum Aushang bringen und zum Unterricht benutzen!
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte - Anlage 2
Anordnung der Bewaffnung, der Kraftstoffbehälter und der Panzerung bei den wichtigsten Kriegsflugzeugen der Feindmächte
In den Zeichnungen sind die Bewaffnung, die Kraftstoffbehälter und die Panzerung nach nachstehendem Schema eingezeichnet:
- Kraftstoffbehälter geschützt
- Kraftstoffbehälter ungeschützt
- Panzerung
- MG
- MG. in Bola [Bola= short for “Bodenlafette”, a ventral gun carriage or gondola]
- Kanone
Die Skizzen sind ohne bestimmten Maßstab. Die Eintragungen wurden auf Grund der zur Zeit vorhandenen Unterlagen – soweit möglich unter Auswertung der Beuteflugzeuge – durchgeführt.
Es ist anzunehmen, daß alle Flugzeuge mindestens mit einem Rückenpanzer für den Flugzeugführer behelfsmäßig ausgestattet sind. Bei den Flugzeugmustern, bei denen an Hand von Beuteflugzeugen eine Panzerung festgestellt wurde, ist diese in den Skizzen eingezeichnet.
Bei den neusten Flugzeugen finden sich nunmehr auch geschützte Kraftstoffbehälter.
Bei den Angaben über die Bewaffnung ist zu berücksichtigen, daß ein und dasselbe Flugzeugmuster verschiedene Bewaffnung aufweisen kann, z. B. Doppel-MG. statt Einfach-MG., Kanonen statt starre MG. usw. Alle bisher bekanntgewordenen Bewaffnungsarten sind bei den jeweiligen Mustern in der Beschreibung auf der Skizze vermerkt.
Die Skizzen von Feindflugzeugen mit Eintragung der Bewaffnung, der Kraftstoffbehälter und der Panzerung werden entsprechend eingehender neuer Unterlagen laufend berichtigt und für neu eingesetzte Flugzeugmuster laufend ergänzt werden!
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte - Großbritannien (einschl. Der USA.-Lieferungen) – Anlage 3
Hoheitsabzeichen der britischen Kriegsflugzeuge
Flügeloberseite
Flügelunterseite
Neuerdings sind der gelbe Ring um die Kokarde, desgleichen der weiße Ring in der Kokarde und der weiße Streifen an der Seitenflosse wesentlich schmäler gehalten. Bisher waren alle Ringe der Kokarde und alle Streifen an der Seitenflosse gleich breit.
Teil II: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.
Achtung!
Wichtige Vorbemerkung!
In diesem Teil sind die Muster nicht mehr aufgeführt, die auch in der britischen Luftwaffe eingesetzt sind. Diese Muster sind im Teil I “Britische Kriegsflugzeuge” (einschl. der USA.-Lieferungen) in den Anlagen 15a-15c, 16a-16c, 17a-17c, 18a-18c, 19a-19c, 20a-20d, 34a-34c, 36a-36c, 37a-37c, 38a, 38b, 39a-39c, 40a-40c, 41a-41c, 42a-42c, 47a-47c, 48a, 48b, 49a und 49b gebracht. Diese Anlagen sind dadurch besonders kenntlich gemacht, daß sie links oben folgende Bezeichnung tragen:
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte
Großbritannien und USA.
Die meisten Bilder tragen noch di bisherigen Hoheitsabzeichen.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – USA. - Anlage 59
Hoheitsabzeichen der USA.-Kriegsflugzeuge
Hoheitsabzeichen auf Flügelober- und –unterseite. Neuerdings häufig nur auf einer Flügelseite (linker Oberseite und rechter Unterseite). Die Flügelunterseiten der Heeresflugzeuge tragen außerdem häufig die Aufschrift: US-Army.
Hoheitsabzeichen auf beiden Seiten des Rumpfes.
Sowohl bei Heeres- als auch bei Marineflugzeugen nicht regelmäßig vorhanden.
Hoheitsabzeichen auf beiden Seiten des Rumpfes, nur bei Marineflugzeugen. Nicht regelmäßig vorhanden.
Hoheitsabzeichen: fünfzackiger weißer oder hellgrauer Stern in kreisförmigem blauen Feld. Nach einer unbestätigten Pressemeldung ist das Hoheitsabzeichen von gelbem Ring umschlossen (warscheinlich am Rumpf). Weiß, gelb, blau
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – USA. - Anlage 60
Allgemeines
Bedeutung der Bezeichnung der Flugzeugmuster der amerikanischen Heeresfliegertruppe
Die einzelnen Flugzeugmuster werden durch Buchstaben und eine Zahl gekennzeichnet. Die Buchstaben vor der Zahl bedeuten die Kategorie, die Zahl gibt an, um das wievielte Muster in der betreffenden Kategorie es sich handelt. Die Bezifferung ist hierbei laufend, ohne Rücksicht auf die Herstellerfirma und ohne Rücksicht darauf, ob das Muster nur als Versuchsmuster oder in Serie gebaut wurde. Ein weiterer Buchstabe nach der Zahl gibt die verschiedenen Serien (Ausführungen) des betreffenden Musters an. Die Kategorien werden durch folgende Buchstaben bezeichnet:
O (Observation) = Aufklärer
B (Bombing) = Kampfflugzeug
A (Attack) = Tiefangriffsflugzeug
P (Pursuit) = Jäger
FM (Multiseater Fighter) = mehrsitziger Jäger (Zerstörer)
C (Cargo) = Transportflugzeug
OA (Observation Amphibium) = Aufklärer-Amphibienflugzeug
Ein X (Experimental) vor der Bezeichnung bedeutet, daß es sich um ein Versuchsmuster handelt, ein Y, daß es sich um ein Flugzeugmuster im Truppenversuch handelt. Zum Beispiel:
B-18 = das 18. Kampfflugzeugmuster
B-18A = die 2. Serie (1. Abwandlung des 18. Kampfflugzeugmusters)
YFM-2 = das 2. Zerstörermuster, im Truppenversuch sich befindend
P-40D = die 5. Ausführung des 40. Jägermusters
Bedeutung der Bezeichnung der Flugzeugmuster der amerikanischen Marinefliegertruppe
Die Fluzeugmuster werden durch eine Gruppe von Buchstaben und Zahlen bezeichnet, die durch einen Bindestrich getrennt sind. Durch die Gruppe vor dem Bindestrich wird die Art der Verwendung, die Herstellerfirma und die Musterzahl gekennzeichnet, während die Zahl hinter dem Bindestrich die betreffende Serie angibt. Der letzte Buchstabe vor dem Bindestrich ist das Kennzeichen für die Herstellerfirma, wobei die einzelnen Firmen wie folgt bezeichnet sind:
A = Brewster
B = Boeing (auch Beech Aircraft)
C = Curtiss
D = Douglas
F = Grumman
H = Hall
J = North American
L = Bell
M = Martin
N = Naval Aircraft Factory
O = Lockheed
P = Spartan
R = Ryan
S = Stearman
T = Northrop
U = Vought-Sikorsky
Y = Consolidated.
Die vorangehende Zahl gibt an, um das wievielte Flugzeug dieser Kategorie der betreffenden Firma es sich handelt, wobei jedoch das erste Flugzeug nicht speziell durch eine Zahl angeführt wird. Die Zahl 1 wird daher weggelassen. Vor dieser Zahl wird der Verwendungszweck des Musters durch 1 bis 2 Buchstaben ausgedrückt. Der erste Buchstabe bedeutet hierbei den Hauptverwendungszweck, der zweite die zusätzliche Verwendungsart. Es werden folgende Buchstaben verwendet:
P = Fernaufklärer (Flugboote)
O = Aufklärer (Artilleriebeobachter)
S = Nahaufklärer
B = Kampfflugzeuge (Stuka)
F = Jagdflugzeuge
J = Arbeitsflugzeuge (Amphibien)
N = Schulflugzeuge
R = Reiseflugzeuge
T = Torpedoflugzeuge
PB = Fernaufklärer-Kampfflugzeuge
OS = Artilleriebeobachter und Nahaufklärer
SB = Aufklärer-Stuka
TB = Torpedo-Kampfflugzeuge
SN = Aufklärer-Schulflugzeuge
JR = Arbeits-Reiseflugzeuge
Ein X (Experimental) vor diesen Buchstaben bedeutet, daß es sich um eine Versuchsauführung handelt. Die Zahl hinter dem Bindestrich bezeichnet, um die wievielte Serie des betreffenden Musters es sich handelt, wobei die einzelnen Serien verschiedene Motorenmuster oder sonstige Änderungen aufweisen.
Zum Beispiel:
S U-4
S: Kategorie “Aufklärer”
U: Fa. Vought (Da keine Zahl voraussteht, bedeutet es das 1. Muster dieser Kategorie)
4: 4. Serie
S B 2 U-3
S B: Kategorie “Aufklärer-Stuka”
2: 2. Muster dieser Kategorie (der Fa. Vought)
U: Fa. Vought-Sikorsky
3: 3. Serie
X T B F -1
X: Versuchsmuster
T B: Kategorie Torpedobomber
F: Fa. Grumman (1. Muster der Kategorie)
1: 1. Serie
Teil III: Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Sowjet-Union
Achtung!
Wichtige Vorbemerkung!
Um die Feststellung von erbeuteten Flugzeugen zu erleichtern, sind die Muster auch mit den russischen Buchstaben bezeichnet, z. B. I-16 = И-16.
Bei den seit 1940 engeführten neuen Flugzeugmustern erfolgte ab 1941 eine Änderung der Bezeichnung: die Neubezeichnung führt nicht mehr die Kategorie der Flugzeuge an, sondern ist aus den Namen der Konstrukteure gebildet. Diese neuen militärischen Bezeichnungen werden in der vorliegenden Zusammenstellung in der ersten Überschriftzeile in der deutschen und der russischen Schreibweise angegeben, die bisherigen Bezeichnungen in Klammern darunter (nur in der deutschen Schreibweise). Bei den schon früher eingeführten Mustern ist die alte Bezeichnungsart beibehalten worden.
In diesem Teil werden nur die Kriegsflugzeuge gebracht, die in der Sowjet-Union selbst hergestellt werden.
Die Muster britischer und amerikanischer Lieferungen sind in Teil I (Britische Kriegsflugzeuge einschl. der USA.-Leiferungen) und Teil II (Die Kriegsflugzeuge der USA.) zu finden.
Zur Zeit (September 1942) sind folgende fremde Muster bei der Luftwaffe der Sowjet-Union festgestellt worden:
Jagdeinsitzer Hawker “Hurricane” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 7a, 7b, 8a-8c)
Jagdeinsitzer Bell “Airacobra” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 15a-15c)
Jagdeinsitzer Curtiss “Tomahawk” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 20a, 20c, 20d)
Kampfflugzeug Douglas “Boston II” und “Boston III” (s. Teil I, Anlagen 36a-36c)
Kampfflugzeug North American B-25 (s. Teil II, Anlagen 68a-68c)
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – Sowjet-Union - Anlage 82
Hoheitsabzeichen nach sowjetischer Vorschrift von 1941
Seitenansicht
Ansicht von oben
Ansicht von unten
Die Vorschrift wird nicht in allen Fällen genau durchgeführt. Es wurde festgestellt, daß der Sowjetstern auf dem Seitenruder gelegentlich fehlt oder daß die Flügeloberseite das Hoheitsabzeichen trägt.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – Sowjet-Union - Anlage 83a
Allgemeines
Die militärische Bezeichnung der älteren Muster erfolgt nach der Kategorie des betreffenden Musters mit einem oder zwei Buchstaben und einer darauffolgenden Zahl.
Es bedeutet hierbei:
I (Istrebitelj) = Jagdeinsitzer
DI (Dwuchmestnyi Istrebitelj) = Jagdzweisitzer
B (Bombardirowschtschik) = Bomber
SB (Skorostnoj Bombardirowschtschik) = Schneller Bomber
DB (Daljnyj Bombardirowschtschik) = Fern-Bomber
BB (Blishnij Bombardirowschtschik) = Nah-Bomber
TB (Tjashjolyj Bombardirowschtschik) = Schwerer Bomber
PB (Pikirujuschtschi Bombardirowschtschik) = Stuka
BSch (Bronirowany Schturmowik) = Gepanzertes Schlachtflugzeug
R (Raswedtschik) = Aufklärer
SchR (Schturmowik Raswedtschik) = Teifangriffsflugzeug – Aufklärer
U (Utschebnyj Samoljot) = Schulflugzeug
UT (Utschebnyj Trenirowatschnyj) = Schul-Übungsflugzeug.
In der darauffolgenden Zahlenbezeichnung ist kein System zu erkennen. Die Zahlen sind weder aufeinanderfolgend, noch nach Werk, Konstrukteur oder Motor durchgeführt. Weiterentwicklungen werden manchmal durch eine nachfolgende Zahl, z. B. I-15 ………. I-153, manchmal durch einen nachfolgenden Buchstanden, z. B. DB-3……………Db-3F, bezeichnet.
Bei den neu eingeführten Flugzeugmustern erfolgt die Bezeichnung seit 1941 nicht mehr nach der Kategorie des Musters, sondern nach den Namen der Konstrukteure (vgl. Vorbemerkung).
Die Werktypenbezeichnung erfolgt durch eine Nummer.
Neue Bezeichnung:
JAK-1
JAK-2, -4
JAK-7
MIG-1, -3
LAGG-3
AR-2
PE-2
ER-2
SU-2
IL-2
Ursprüngliche Bezeichnung:
I-26
BB-22
UTI-26 (I-26 als 2sitziges Übungsflugzeug)
I-200 (Werksbezeichnung I-61)
I-301
SB-RK
Bei den neuen Mustern wurde oft eine Verschiedenheit in der Konstruktion oder in der Bewaffnung vorgefunden, was darauf schließen läßt, daß die serienmäßige Entwicklung noch nicht abgeschlossen ist.
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte – Sowjet-Union - Anlage 83b
Bei Meldungen über abgeschlossene oder zerstörte Flugzeuge ist künftig die neue Musterbezeichnung anzuführen!
Hinweise für den Flugmeldedienst:
Die Unterschiede zwischen einigen Flugzeugmustern sind derart gering, daß ihr einwandfreies Erkennen im Luftraum schwierig ist. Für den Flugmeldedienst werden daher zweckmäßig sich sehr ähnlich sehende Muster (die auch immer gleichen Verwendungszweck haben) unter nur einer Bezeichnung zusammengefaßt.
1. I-15bis und I-153 werden nur als I-153 angesprochen. I-153 ist nur eine Weiterentwickung des Musters I-15 und hat wesentlichstes Merkmal ein einziehbares Fahrwerk. Außerdem sind beim Muster I-153 der obere und untere Flügel geknickt.
2. Die drei neuen Jagdeinsitzermuster LAGG-3, MIG-1, -3 und JAK-1 (“Spitzmaus”-Muster) werden nur “Lagg” angesprochen.
Am Boden ist die Unterscheidung wegen der verschiedenen Bauweisen ohne weiteres möglich.
Das Muster LAGG-3 ist in Ganzholzbauweise ausgeführt,
Das Muster JAK-1 hat einen Holzflügel (durchlaufend) und einen Rumpf aus Stahlrohr geschweißt, mit Stoff bespannt,
Das Muster MIG-1, -3 hat die Außenflügel und den rückwärtigen Teil des Rumpfes ab Führersitz in Holzbau, den Rumpfvorderteil und das Flügelmittelstück in Metallbau.
Diese drei neuen Jagdeinsitzermuster haben flüssigkeitsgekühlte V-Motoren, die beiden älteren Muster haben luftgekühlte Sternmotoren.
3. Alle SB-Muster (SB-2, -3) und das Muster AR-2 (SB-RK) werden unter der Sammelbezeichnung “SB” angesprochen.
Hauptunterscheidung am Boden:
Alle drei Muster haben flüssigkeitsgekühlte V-Motoren, aber verschiedene Kühleranordnung: SB-2 Stirnkühler, SB-3 Bauchkühler, AR-2 (SB-RK) Flügelkühler.
SB-2 und SB-3 haben einen Bugstand mit Schwenklafette, wobei jedes MG. sich in einem Längsschlitz in der Bugnase bewegt, das Muster AR-2 hat einen geschlossenen Bugstand mit einem MG. in Kugellafette.
Das Muster AR-2 hat Sturzflugbremsen, ähnlich wie die Ju-88, die beiden SB-Muster haben keine Sturzflugbremsen.
4. Die beiden Muster DB-3 und DB-3 F werden unter der Bezeichnung “DB-3” zusammengefaßt (zum Unterschied vom Muster TB-3 = “TB-3” Ansprache zweckmäßig “Dora B-3” und “Toni B-3”).
Beide Muster haben luftgekühlte Sternmotoren und unterscheiden sich nur durch die Art der Bugkanzel. Das Muster DB-3 hat eine stumpfe Kanzel mit einem MG.-Drehturm im Bug, das Muster DB-3 F hat eine langgestreckte Kanzel mit einem MG. in Kugellafette.
Alle anderen Muster sind mit ihrer Bezeichnung anzusprechen. Ähnlich sind sich noch die Muster SU-2 und R-10 sowie die beiden Muster PE-2 und JAK-4. Ein sicheres Unterscheiden dieser Muster wird nur bei einigen Fluglagen möglich sein. Ein gutes Unterscheidungsmerkmal bei den Mustern SU-2 und R-10 is die Lage des Führersitzes, der beim Muster R-10 ganz vorn, unmittelbar hinter dem Motor angeordnet ist, während er beim Muster SU-2 weiter zurücklegt. Bei der Ansicht von unten weist das Muster R-10 eine gerade Flügelhinterkante (Keilflügel) auf, während das Muster SU-2 einen Doppeltrapezflügel hat. Als Unterscheidungsmerkmal am Boden dient auch das Motorenmuster: R-10 mit einfachen Sternmotor, SU-2 mit Doppelsternmotor.
Die Muster PE-2 und JAK-4 sind in der Luft schwer zu unterscheiden, am Boden aber infolge der verschiedenen Bauweisen leicht zu erkennen. Das Muster PE-2 ist in Ganzmetallbauweise ausgeführt, das Muster JAK-4 in Gemischt-, der Flügel in Holzbauweise.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Die Kriegsflugzeuge der Feindmächte
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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223 printed sheets. The following pages are missing: 25b, 25d, 43, 61a, 73, 75, 76, 79, 80, 81.
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MMolloyS[Ser#-DoB]-160212-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Description
An account of the resource
Contains photographs, silhouettes and drawings of British, American and Russian aircraft, showing dimensions, armament, armour plate or glass, and position of fuel tanks. Tables set out aircraft capabilities, including range and bomb loads.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Germany. Wehrmacht Luftwaffe
B-17
B-24
B-25
Beaufighter
Blenheim
Boston
Catalina
Defiant
fuelling
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Hampden
Hudson
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lysander
Manchester
Mosquito
P-38
P-40
P-51
Spitfire
Stirling
Sunderland
Swordfish
Ventura
Walrus
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/621/10212/NParryHP-161011-010001.1.jpg
6ce54bf2c76325fd74ad011edac077d8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parry, Hugh
Hugh Pryce Parry
H P Parry
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parry, HP
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. Two oral history interviews with Hugh Parry (b. 1925, 2220054 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and newspaper cuttings. Hugh Parry flew operations as an air gunner with 75 Squadron and then as a photographer and air gunner with 90 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Hugh Parry and catalogued by Stuart Bennett.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
tenth night running. Erfurt was another target. This followed day attacks by 1,800 heavies-600 R.A.F. planes over Mannheim and [underlined] Kamen, [/underlined] and 1,200 Liberators and Forts in the Stuttgart area. Three R.A.F. and nine U.S. planes were lost.
[inserted] 1.3.45 [/inserted]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Operation to Mannheim and Kamen
Description
An account of the resource
Account of Mannheim and Kamen daylight operations. Kamen is underlined. Captioned '1.3.45'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03
Format
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One newspaper cutting
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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NParryHP-161011-010001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Andy Hamilton
B-17
B-24
bombing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/477/10243/LBrileyWG1586825v1.1.pdf
1fafc8f88de868c2a3d32e67ebd8d4b0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briley, William George
George Briley
W G Briley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Briley, WG
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer William George Briley (1586825, Royal Air Force), his log book, service material and a sight log book containing <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/987">18 target photographs</a>. After training in South Africa, George Briley completed 39 bombing and supply dropping operations as a navigator with 40 Squadron flying Wellingtons from Foggia in Italy. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by William George Briley and catalogued by Barry Hunter, <span>with additional identification provided by the Archeologi dell'Aria research group (</span><a href="https://www.archeologidellaria.org/">https://www.archeologidellaria.org</a><span>)</span>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
William George Briley's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Observers and air gunners flying log book for Wiliam George Briley, covering the period from 2 December 1943 to 24 November 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and communication flight duties. He was stationed at, East London, RAF Qastina, RAF Foggia and Athens. Aircraft flown in were, DH82 Tiger Moth, Anson, Empire flying boat, Wellington, Defiant, C-47, Fairchild Argus III and Liberator. He flew a total of 39 operations, 26 night and 13 daylight operations, consisting of 28 bombing operations and 11 supply drops. Targets were, Ferrara, Bologna, Milan, Athens, Brescia, Szekesfehervar, Solonica, Borovnica, Danube, Verona, Bronzolo, Tuzla, Sinj, Vragolovi, Predgrao, Zakomo, Podgorica, Novi Pasar, Chiapovano, Szombathely, Bugojno, Matesevo, Casarsa, Susegana, Salcano, Doboj, Circhina and Udine. His pilot on operations was Sergeant Hanson.
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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One booklet
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBrileyWG1586825v1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Conforms To
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Pending review
Contributor
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Mike Connock
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Croatia
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Montenegro
Middle East--Palestine
Serbia
Slovenia
South Africa
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Bugojno (Opština)
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Doboj
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Tuzla
Croatia--Sinj
Danube River
Gaza Strip--Gaza
Greece--Athens
Hungary--Székesfehérvár
Hungary--Szombathely
Italy--Bologna
Italy--Brescia
Italy--Bronzolo
Italy--Casarsa della Delizia
Italy--Ferrara
Italy--Foggia
Italy--Milan
Italy--Susegana
Italy--Udine
Italy--Verona
Middle East--Palestine
Montenegro--Kolašin
Montenegro--Podgorica
Serbia--Novi Pazar
Slovenia--Borovnica
Slovenia--Cerkno
Slovenia--Solkan
South Africa--East London
Greece--Thessalonikē
Gaza Strip
Danube River
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1944-09-02
1944-09-06
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-14
1944-09-17
1944-09-19
1944-09-21
1944-09-26
1944-10-04
1944-10-05
1944-10-09
1944-10-10
1944-10-11
1944-10-12
1944-11-01
1944-11-04
1944-11-05
1944-11-06
1944-11-08
1944-11-10
1944-11-16
1944-11-17
1944-11-18
1944-11-19
1944-11-22
1944-11-25
1944-11-26
1944-12-11
1944-12-13
1944-12-14
1944-12-15
1944-12-16
1944-12-19
1944-12-26
1944-12-27
1945-01-03
1945-01-05
1945-01-15
1945-01-20
1945-01-21
40 Squadron
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
B-24
C-47
Defiant
mine laying
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Resistance
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/983/10255/PShipmanJ1802.1.jpg
402fd5eda76ea65c8120e45c6e9d4f82
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/983/10255/AShipmanJ181010.2.mp3
49a1d1a3464d7f42257b53fde785f7f2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Shipman, John
J Shipman
Description
An account of the resource
43 items. An oral history interview with John Shipman (1923 - 2020, 1694683 Royal Air Force) his diary, documents and a photograph album. He served as ground personnel in India and the Middle east
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Shipman and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Shipman, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: It’s the 10th October 2018. This is an interview with Mr John Shipman who was in Transport Command and served in India. It’s being recorded in the village of Croxton Kerrial in, which is still in Leicestershire.
Other: Just.
HB: Ish. John, thank you very much for agreeing to be interviewed.
JS: Pleasure.
HB: Now, when were you born, John?
JS: When? 26 12 ’23
HB: Right. And where were you born?
JS: Stathern.
HB: Stathern. Right. And what, what did you, what school did you go to? What schooling did you get?
JS: Stathern School until I was eleven and then the Modern School for Boys in Melton until I was nearly fifteen, I think.
HB: Yeah. That’s in Melton Mowbray. Yeah. So, what, what were your sort of interests at the time, John?
JS: Well, not a lot of anything because in those days at my age we were looking forward to getting into the forces. We were going to be called up at eighteen. We knew that. So, what I did with a lad, a very big friend of mine out in the village we joined Melton ATC. 1279 Squadron. I think we’d be about the openers of that squadron in those days.
Other: Yeah.
JS: That took up a lot of our time, spare time because there was no transport. Only pushbikes. We had to bike from Stathern to Melton for various classes. Filing and engineering and all sorts of things like that. Parachute packing. Oh, no. Sorry we had to go and bike to Spitalgate Aerodrome for parachute packing.
HB: Spitalgate.
JS: And Morse Code. Yes. That’s near Grantham.
HB: Yeah.
JS: We had to bike there because there was no other transport so, this took up several days of the week and nights especially. And then we joined the ATC because we’d got a good chance then of getting into the RAF at the trade we selected.
HB: Right.
JS: So, it was up to the authorities whether you got it or not. But anyway we, I can’t [pause] I’ve got my medical thing. We got a medical at Leicester. After we’d turned eighteen we had to go to Leicester. Of course, the medicals in those days they just counted your arms and legs and they made you A1 [laughs]
HB: [laughs] Yeah.
JS: Waiting for the big call up. Well, I got my call up papers. I can’t think what day we had to go. I had to report to RAF Padgate which was the place where you got kitted out. That was near Warrington. So, of course, by train. In those days, there was a station at Stathern and we got on the train from there and got to Padgate and found, oh it was an awful place. Terrible for living. You had to get kitted out or you got your number, rank and name and everything there. You got kitted out with your uniform. They gave you brown paper and string to pack your civvies up, send home. And then from then on it was all queue for this, queue for that. We used to have to queue for our breakfast in a great big shed place and of course one or two of the lads were that hungry they were passing out.
HB: Blimey.
JS: And we got kitted out from there anyway. I can’t remember —
HB: What year was this, John?
JS: The nineteen [pause] 1942.
HB: Right. Right.
JS: August 1942.
HB: Yeah.
JS: And —
HB: So, you’d actually got people so hungry they were, they were —
JS: Oh, it were terrible.
HB: They were fainting.
JS: Yes. And it was everything there was [pause] everything. The kitting out was measuring and throwing things at you [laughs] Kit bags and two uniforms and, and everything like that.
HB: Yeah.
JS: They were all mess. Knife, fork and spoon and a mug and you got all this trailing behind you.
HB: Good grief. Yeah.
JS: Anyway, from there we got sent for square bashing to Blackpool. I can’t think how long we were there. That was, I know it was getting on towards the back end of the year because the winds at Blackpool was pretty terrible then. You couldn’t keep your hat on. But very much, there was a lot of bull at Blackpool. You’d got to keep your buttons absolutely shiny and that was wonderful in the sea air and you’d got to have creases in your trousers. So, what we used to do, we’d got no press we used to soak the inside and lay on them to get the creases in. But we were in like boarding houses there. Of course, they took Blackpool over in the war. It was an RAF station. We were in boarding houses there. About four to a bedroom and about three bedrooms was taken with the lads and there was one bathroom. And well, that was Blackpool life and I don’t, I can’t think how long we were there. Several months.
HB: Had they, had they decided what your trade was then or —
JS: Yes. Sorry. They decided our trade at Padgate.
HB: Right.
JS: I wanted engines and we got engines and I joined up with a lad from, from Padgate and I kept with him all the while I was in the Air Force. Al Staley he was. He lived at Burton on Trent. I kept with him all the way until we got back from India and then he got posted elsewhere. But anyway, after Blackpool we were going on technical training. We were sent, we were trained at technical training at RAF Locking near Weston Super Mare.
HB: Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And we did all the necessary technical work there. Engines and we were stripping engines. Engine runs and everything like that.
HB: So, all, all the engines that the RAF were using at the time.
JS: Yes. Well —
HB: You’d be learning about them.
JS: Well, the Rolls Royce. In those days we were trained on the Kestrel and the Pegasus in America were radials. Bristols they were, weren’t they? And then engine running and starting. Tiger Moths and hand starting, and Tiger Moths. Everything like that. Anyway, from there we decided, they decided from there we were going for a posting. We’d got to go overseas which was rather a shock at our age.
HB: Blimey. Yeah.
JS: So —
HB: So how, how long did your trade training take do you think, John.
JS: I should think seven. Seven or eight months, I think.
HB: Right. And did, did you keep any of your notes?
JS: Oh yes. I’ve got them.
HB: Yeah.
JS: In that tin trunk in the—
HB: Yeah.
JS: In the shed [laughs] yeah, and various training books and things like that. They’re all in there somewhere. I forgot about that. Anyway, we, they decided we were going to be posted overseas which was rather a shock. So, the first leave we got was embarkation leave. I think we got a month.
HB: Right.
JS: Then of course in those days you’d no idea where you were going to be sent. So, went home and I think what happened then? I think we had a month embarkation leave at home.
HB: Who was at home, John?
JS: Well, I lived on a farm.
HB: Right. With?
JS: Mum and dad and brothers and sisters.
HB: Right. How many?
JS: I’d already got a brother in the Army.
HB: Right.
JS: And they extended, I’ll always remember they extended the embarkation leave for another month. I think they couldn’t make out what they were going to do with us. Anyway, we got, we had to report back to Locking.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Off leave. And then of course you’d no idea where you were going to go. We got sent back from there back to Blackpool because Blackpool was the, as I say was an RAF station in those days. A big posh hotel on the front was our station headquarters. And we were kitted out at Marks and Spencer’s in Blackpool for KDs. Tropical kit. That was the clothing store. And another kit bag. So we had two sets of, and a blooming great Bombay bowler.
HB: A Bombay bowler —
JS: [unclear]
HB: Oh.
JS: There and then we got a bit of an idea we were going somewhere hot. So I think we were there for, I can’t remember how long we were there. It must be in my book somewhere. So, then we got drafted from there to West Kirby near Liverpool. We had an idea then wherever we’d be going we would be sailing from Liverpool which we were. And we got moved from there, West Kirby to Liverpool to get on the boat and we got on the P&O liner troopship Otranto. And we, I think my berthing thing in there E4 deck. And that’s below the water line. We had a boat stations one morning. The first morning and squadron leader somebody, I don’t remember what his name was told us we were the nucleus, I’ll always remember it, the nucleus of a new force and where we were going it would take us seven weeks. That was a comforting thought, wasn’t it?
HB: So, this is 1943.
JS: Oh yeah.
HB: You’re in a boat and you still, you still don’t know where you’re going.
JS: No. Hadn’t a clue. Oh no. No. It was all top secret. You didn’t know anything then, did you? Anyway, we had to put up with it. I’ve got all my trips there. In there. But we, I think we were averaging about three hundred mile a day on this damned boat [pause] I thought we put down how many more. Anyway, we had, they used to have a, I was so seasick and I always remember when we were getting on the boat every twentieth person was handed a thing to say that you was mess deck orderly for the next twenty, nineteen people. I got one and couldn’t think of anyone better because I damned well couldn’t keep anything down because I was so seasick.
HB: Oh no.
JS: But I had to.
HB: Yeah.
JS: And I was responsible for anybody who wanted to go sick. Or cigarette ration, chocolate ration. Food. Sorting the food and everything. Of course, I got, I was only ever having ship’s biscuits because I were so sick.
HB: Oh dear.
JS: But anyway, that passed over and we used, we were issued with a hammock. Well, how the devil could we sleep in a hammock? I used to, we used to sleep on the deck every night. Take the hammock up and everybody was issued with a life thing like two cotton pads so you could use that as a pillow. Of course, we were getting very hot then and when we got into the tropical kit well it wasn’t too bad really.
HB: How many, how many were you on the boat? Can you remember?
JS: Pardon?
HB: How many people were on the boat?
JS: Oh, God. Thousands I should think. Army as well.
HB: Right. So it was a real big mixed.
JS: Oh yes it was.
HB: Yeah.
JS: You see we were only allowed on certain dates. Officers were allowed on the deck.
HB: So, what did you, how did you keep yourselves entertained for seven weeks?
JS: Well, I was saying we, I don’t know. We used to play cards on the deck, I think and there was no entertainment arranged or anything like that.
HB: No.
JS: I don’t know. There was no radio or anything. I don’t know what we did [laughs] There was nought to look at. Only sea.
HB: Yeah. But it improved a bit when you got to wear your tropical kit then.
JS: Well, they, when we got to South Africa we found out where, we anchored off Cape Town. Oh, I’ll tell you what we anchored off West Africa. The Gold Coast.
HB: Yeah.
JS: They called it White Man’s Grave then, didn’t they? We anchored off there. I think to take water on I don’t know but anyway we were there for about two days. My God it was hot. And it was the first sight of bananas we got there. Of course, there were no bananas here.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And from there we sailed on to, we saw Cape Town. We stopped there for something. Of course, and then we went in to Durban and we found out we were getting off the boat in Durban to change boats. That wasn’t too bad. But in the meantime on the boat I got this great big abscess come up on the back of my neck so I got transferred straight in to hospital there. Springfield Military Hospital which was very good and I was very lucky [laughs] because the other lads were on the Clairwood Race Course which had been rapidly converted to a camp and there was not a bed or anything. They just lay on a blanket under this open shed. So they didn’t fare so well. The only thing that they got there was white bread and apricot jam. They reckoned that was marvellous [laughs] because old Alfie used to come and see me in hospital. He used to tell me all this you see. Anyway, I was in hospital for, I think I were there for about three weeks but while we was there people, the white population of Durban used to come and fetch us out. Take us out. So I did very well. I went, took me two or three times to the coast. Isipingo Beach and Manzanita Beach and Valley of a Thousand Hills. They took us everywhere. Mrs Anderson it was used to take us out and of course she had to take us back at night. And then we got drafted again. All good things came to an end. We got put on another boat. The P&O Strathnaver.
HB: Right.
JS: And I’ve got the berthing thing there but we weren’t quite so low deck on that one but of course we’d crossed, already crossed the Equator getting down to Cape Town. So, we still didn’t know where we were going. So we set sail again and we crossed the Equator again going up the other side of Africa and we finally arrived in Bombay.
HB: Seven weeks.
JS: Seven weeks later. When you think about it can you imagine what today if they told some of these youngsters they were going to be seven weeks on a damned boat? They’d have a fit, would they? But anyway, we were put in camp at Bombay. Worli. I always remember going through a Gateway to India at Bombay, isn’t there? A big arch. We went through there. We got motor of the transport to this transit camp at Worli and then we were there for a day or two. We still didn’t know the destination and from there we were put on a troop train and we were told it would take two and a half days on a damned troop train. Can you imagine it? I think all we lived on was boiled eggs because I think they used to boil them in the engine. And there was hardly any toilets or anything and imagine the heat. It was awful. About eight to a carriage. We had to sleep there with one place to wash. Anyway, we were towards the end of this terrible journey we crossed, oh, I don’t know. We could look out. Paddy fields and all this carry on in India. We finally arrived at Karachi. So we were told that this was our destination and we would be stationed at RAF Mauripur which was just a new station just outside Karachi. So we got on the, we used to call them garreys, didn’t they? The back of the garrey and delivered to RAF Mauripur in the middle of the, on the edge of the Sindh Desert. Passed through Karachi. The other side of Karachi.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Fortunately, we was only about three or four miles off the Arabian Sea. To the beach. So we weren’t too bad there. A bit of a [unclear] So we were billeted there. They were only building, only building this blooming place. The billets, we’d got no electricity. They give us these hurricane lamps and the old Indian bed. The charpoy we called it. We got to know all that. It was just a strange knotted thing and a, a mosquito net. Ten to a block. There was like double blocks. There were ten this side and ten this side. And then work started.
HB: So, during —
JS: I was an AC2 flight mechanic in those days.
HB: Yeah. During all of this travelling and getting there did you ever have any refresher training? Or —
JS: No.
HB: They just relied on the fact you’d been and trained. Been trained and that was it. You were going to remember it all.
JS: We got pat, there was one or two of the older lads there I’ll tell you because a lot of these lads that were there was one or two lads there had escaped from the Japs at Singapore. Do you remember that?
HB: Yeah.
JS: When the Japs, a lot of the lads had got out. Quite a few of the older lads had been out there before Singapore and places. So we got posted with a fitter. I was only a AC2 flight mech then. We got posted. We each had a fitter and we just did the jobs. Got all my details. I’ve got details of every aircraft.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: At that, in those days it was more fighter stuff coming in. We had Spitfires and Hurricanes and Beaufighters and Blenheims and —
HB: So how did they arrive John? Were they, were they being flown in on by —
JS: They’d be flown in.
HB: Ferry pilots.
JS: Yes. Flown through —
HB: So, where had they come from?
JS: Well, they’d come through, they’d come from the various airfields in the, in the through the Middle East which wasn’t at war. At Sharjah and Habbaniya and places like that. And then we had a satellite strip I think. What was the name of it? Jawami. They had to land there.
HB: So, had they all come from England?
JS: Yes.
HB: Had they actually flown from England?
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Or had they been, had they been on ships.
JS: Yeah. That’s what we were doing. We were doing minor inspections on them you see so they went through to the different squadrons in India. But quite a lot of Spitfires were assembled at another place near Drigh Road. They used to come in crates to there. They assembled there and then they came to us for putting into squadron use you see.
HB: So what, so what would, what would you got a new Spitfire or you got a Hurricane or whatever.
JS: Yeah.
HB: What would, what would you actually do? You’ve got it sort of come to you —
JS: Well, we had to make sure that everything was [pause] we had sort of an acceptance check.
HB: Right.
JS: And Mosquitoes we had as well. And gradually things got bigger. We got Dakotas and Liberators and oh, I don’t know. You’d not got Yorks in those days. Hellcats. A lot of American stuff as well. Hellcats, Corsairs, we were doing just, just doing well, a detailed inspection on whatever they wanted. I think every forty hours they had these minor inspections. Minor star inspections and things like that. We worked to a schedule.
HB: The —
JS: The fitter did so much and the flight mech did so much, you see.
HB: So how, how did you, I mean like the Hellcat or the —
JS: We’d no training.
HB: The Liberator, how did you actually learn about the engines?
JS: We didn’t. We didn’t. We just had to do it.
HB: So, it was —
JS: If there was a mag drop we had to change the plugs. I’ve got quite a set [unclear] I was saying there were no training on American. The Pratt and Whitley twin wasps on the Dakotas. We’d no training on them.
HB: So —
JS: We just did it.
HB: So, nobody actually said, ‘Right. Sit down. This is what this is.’
JS: Not a thing. No. We had to do it because we were a fitter and we had to do a fitting. No. No. There was nothing like that.
HB: Right.
JS: Gradually, after several, I don’t know about a year or so I had the chance to have a re-mustering board to, to become a fitter 2E from flight mech. Which would be quite a bit more money.
HB: Yeah. Important.
JS: I had to go down to this Drigh Road. The other side of town for that. I can’t, I always remember the bloke that took it with me. A Flight Lieutenant Schultz, his name was. Oh yes. We had to do all sorts of things. Draw oil systems, fuel systems, cooler systems. Answer no end of questions and gradually ok. I found, found out I’d become a fitter 2E.
HB: Right. So, the, so and that’s, and that was —
JS: More money that was.
HB: Yeah.
JS: We were only on two shillings a day you know.
HB: Oh right. Right. Well, yeah I suppose AC2. Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
HB: You would be.
JS: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
JS: I think the, of course we were on Rupees there. I think the average, I think the exchange rate was for thirteen, I don’t know if it was thirteen Rupees to the pound.
HB: Right. So that was, that was quite a significant pay rise then.
JS: And then, and then we got into the bigger stuff like all that. That’s just a year’s work in there.
HB: Yeah.
JS: We had Corsairs, Yorks, no end of Yorks. Liberators there.
HB: And that would, that would the York would be what towards the end of ’45.
JS: That was in ’45.
HB: ’45. Yeah.
JS: Getting towards the end of the war years.
HB: Yeah.
JS: And of course, with us being Transport Command everything that came in to India came through us you see. Landed with us. We had flight, we used to have Lord Louis. Not in those days. I think the Viceroy in those days when we first got there, I think it was General Wavell. And then he changed to Lord Louis Mountbatten and he used to come through regular and being six foot tall I got lumbered with being on the guard of honour. So, we, if there had been an accident unfortunately we had to go and bury everybody and we used to have to stand guard of honour for Lord Louis and Edwina and people, all the VIPs used to come then because people started to show a bit of interest in us.
HB: So, RAF Mauripur must have gone, it must have expanded really.
JS: We went from 317 MU to 48 Terminal Staging Post.
HB: Right.
JS: That’s how we, and then everything came through us like. In fact, they built quite a nice hotel on the airfield to entertain these people as they were coming through.
HB: So —
JS: And then quite a lot of dissatisfaction in those days because every, South East Asia was neglected terrible. I mean, for a start we’d got nothing to use. We had to use a split pin twice. There was nothing. They gave us the most basic tool kit. And things did improve eventually and then of course we had this strike didn’t we?
HB: Did you?
JS: Oh aye. All the, all the, the whole line went out on strike because the treatment we got wasn’t very good. I can’t remember what date the strike was.
HB: This was serviceman.
JS: Oh yes. it was very serious. Frightened us all to death because it was, well I mean the whole line was out on strike.
HB: When you say the line.
JS: Right through from all the Middle East and everywhere. They were all, it all stopped.
HB: What? Just stopped work?
JS: Yeah.
[pause]
JS: I mean —
HB: I can pause this while you have a quick look in your diary. John. That’s not a problem.
[recording paused]
JS: Tuesday the 22nd of January everything stopped.
HB: Nineteen forty —
JS: 1946.
HB: Right.
JS: “On strike from eight in the morning until certain promises are made as regards demob etcetera. Whole station went out. Afternoon lecture by the padre. Still keeping out until satisfaction obtained. Meeting at 8 o’clock.” You had to meet when it was dark you see because no one would dare. Had to put the lights out.
HB: And that’s all in your diary.
JS: Yes. Meeting. Cairo West was out, Jiwani was out, Jodhpur was out. And they all came out. Sharjah. And all they came out on strike as well.
HB: And what was, what was, what was the reason for the strike, John?
JS: Well, we got the war was over here then in ’46 and we were getting nowhere out there and when, when the lads that had been out there for four years should have been sent home, repatriated they sent all the blooming Indian Army in place over for that damned great Victory Parade in London.
HB: Right.
JS: It caused quite a bit of dissention.
HB: Yeah.
JS: But anyway, the results of the strike came out quite well really because they reduced the tour from my tour. I should have been there four years to three years. So, I was already over my time.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: So after, actually it affected me as well and all the lads that went out with me because we had to wait while all these troops came over here for their Victory Parade. Anyway, we did eventually get notice we were going to be repatriated so —
HB: So what were the, so you mentioned earlier about the conditions as well. What were the conditions like in ’46 then?
JS: They had improved but we was forgotten.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Living quarters had improved considerably and we’d got cinemas and tennis courts and things like that. The food was much better and working conditions. They built us some beautiful big hangars. Open like big half-moon hangars and about that much either side and they were cool. No doors on them and much better working conditions. We got better tooling and equipment. Instead of having to stand on oil drums we were getting proper, proper equipment.
HB: I was going to ask you to go back a bit on that John from earlier on. When you got there you were saying about you got a basic tool kit and you had to use split pins twice. So —
JS: Well, it was —
HB: So —
JS: There was no electricity then.
HB: Yeah. How did you, did you have to make pieces yourself.
JS: Well, we had to. We had to, we had these basic, we had to do the best as we could. There was no electricity. For the runways they used to light those, Nitrolights, was it?
HB: Yeah. Nitrolights. Yeah. So —
JS: Never had any water.
HB: Yeah.
JS: We couldn’t drink the water anyway but there were hardly any water to wash. I think they used to have to pipe it from the Indus. And all the drains was open. We used to have to jump across the drain to get to the mess.
HB: Blimey.
JS: The showers was, of course there was no hot water of course. We had to have cold showers but there was hardly any water. It used to be a big occasion. Somebody used to shout, ‘The showers are on.’ And every, of course, we never used to wear much. We only used to wear a towel when we were in the billets. We didn’t take a lot of dressing. It didn’t take long to get to the shower.
HB: Right. So, they, so that was really basic.
JS: Basic.
HB: Living and working.
JS: Terrible.
HB: At that time. When did that improve? Was that sort of towards ’45 then?
JS: Yes. Towards ’45 it did improve slowly. Yeah. As the war gradually finished this side we were getting more attention.
HB: Right.
JS: But the food, it was, I don’t know, I’m sure. One day a week we had to live on K-rations. Those American packs.
HB: Yeah.
JS: We got a pack for breakfast and pack for lunch and a pack for dinner. A tin of something and a few biscuits. Three cigarettes and a box of matches. These matches. About sixty sheets of toilet paper. And we had, I think there used to be egg and bacon in a tin for breakfast or something like that. Stew for dinner. Maconochie’s, I think it was.
HB: Yeah. So that sees you through to ’46 so because over here they were they were preparing in Bomber Command they were doing a thing called Operation Tiger. Did you ever hear anything about Operation Tiger over there?
JS: No.
HB: Because that was where they were gathering up experienced crews.
JS: No. We wouldn’t hear anything you see.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Because everything was top secret, wasn’t it?
HB: Yeah, because the plan was for Tiger was for them to go out to India and then move on through Burma to bomb Japan.
JS: We wouldn’t have any radios or anything, you see.
HB: No.
JS: Never heard a thing.
HB: So, how, how did you get to know what was going on in the war then?
JS: Well, we used to, I used to buy a newspaper. the Daily Gazette and pay [unclear] a day it was.
HB: Right.
JS: We had the paper come.
HB: Yeah.
JS: I’ve got one in there actually.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Of when the war finished.
HB: Yeah. So and that was your only source of information.
JS: Yeah.
HB: You, didn’t, you didn’t —
JS: Rumours.
HB: Yeah. I was going to say you didn’t get drawn in every month.
JS: No. No. No. Nothing like that.
HB: So, so, if anybody started a rumour it would be believed.
JS: Oh yeah. It would go like mad.
[clock chiming]
HB: What sort, hey up. That will go well on there. It’s recording it nicely. So what sort of rumours did you get John? Can you remember any of them?
JS: Not really. No. I can’t remember really what there were.
HB: Yeah.
JS: As I say we used to say we used to get this paper every day. That’s about, and we use to get information probably from the front. And past Calcutta wasn’t it? And it was east of the Brahmaputra.
HB: Right. Right.
JS: You used to get a bit of it when the lads used to come because some of the lad used to come back posted to us you see and we used to [pause] any lads that was injured or anything like that we would ferry them back here.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Some of the troops. In fact, after the war we [pause] they built a big trooping camp at Mauripur and most of the lads that were coming back from Burma came through us. We used to get about forty take-offs a day. Dakotas out.
HB: Yeah. And they were flying —
JS: We used to have to service about three aircraft on a shift in them days.
HB: Did you?
JS: Stirlings or Yorks or Dakotas, Liberators. They made everything into a transport.
HB: Yeah.
JS: They even made up a Lancaster. They made a Lancastrians didn’t they? It only held about fifteen people but —
HB: Yeah. Well, if got them back. Yeah. it’s important. So, you’re working your backside off. What about mail from home. Letters from home.
JS: Plenty of mail. We got —
HB: Yeah.
JS: Mail was pretty good actually.
HB: You’re still a single man at this stage, are you?
JS: Yes. Yeah. We used to, we used to get quite a, quite, in fact when I was twenty one my mum sent me a cake.
HB: Oh lovely.
JS: I used to send no end of stuff home because the Yorks especially when we, when we got the Yorks coming through full blast we used to go downtown and buy say boxes of tea and [pause] put, in fact I bought mine with a watch and put it inside the tea because you had to be a bit careful [laughs] And we used to sew these parcels up and the York crews used to post them for us here. They were very good at that for us.
HB: Right.
JS: So I used to get shoes for my sister and mum and I used to send mum dress lengths and things like that. We’d got quite a good thing going actually. But you used to have to parcel them up and then you had to put a declaration on the front. What was in it? You know. For customs this end.
HB: What? Like box of, box of tea containing watch. Yeah.
JS: For this end, you see.
HB: Yeah.
JS: It had to go through customs.
HB: Yeah.
JS: So —
HB: Did you ever have any bother with that?
JS: No. No. No. Well, these aircrew we used to at the back of the outboard engine on the York nacelle there was a big empty space and these lads used to put mats in there, carpets, Indian carpets. We used to take this damned thing down and they used to — [laughs]
HB: This sounds like, this sounds a bit interesting this though.
JS: Well, one thing led to another. It was alright. It was all very legal [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
JS: Well, we got this thing going and then eventually you see we got our turn to come home. So, I went around. We waited. I know was on, off, on, off repatriating for ages. We were getting a bit cheesed off. Eventually we got into a group where our group was coming on. So we got cleared of Mauripur and we had to, we were going to be flown to, this was another thing. We were flying everybody home and we had to come home by boat [laughs] Anyway, we, we got clear of Mauripur and we got we were going down to Bombay. We got in to Dakotas and flown down to Worli at Bombay. While we were down there it was the monsoon season. It just chucked it down with rain about every second. Anyway, we eventually got on to another troop ship. What was that? Strathnaver, was it? Something like that. We weren’t too bad on that one. We weren’t on deck below the water line. But it was the monsoon season and I was sick about every day for a week I should think. I’ve got in there somewhere.
HB: Oh dear.
JS: It was that rough.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: But coming back you see we could come back through Suez because the Middle East was open you see. The war had finished.
HB: Oh, of course. Yes.
JS: So once we got clear of this nice smooth seas it wasn’t too bad. We came through the Suez Canal.
HB: Did you stop on the way through?
JS: No.
HB: At Cairo or anywhere.
JS: Only to take water in at was it Port Said. Port Said, isn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
JS: And it was nice through the Suez. There’s a big statue isn’t there? Ferdinand de Lesseps pointing at Port Said. I think he was something to do with the building of it or something. We passed Aden and Malta and finally got back here.
HB: Where did you land when you came back?
JS: We landed at Liverpool.
HB: You left at Liverpool and you come back there.
JS: Yeah. And what happened then? We got, from Liverpool we went back to a place I think it was West Kirby again. Of course, we were back in our blues then. We got rid of, we threw all the blooming tropical kit overboard into the Arabian, into whatever sea it was we were crossing.
HB: Did you?
JS: Yeah. Bombay bowler and all that went. Anyway —
HB: Was that official or was that just something you did?
JS: We didn’t want the stuff, did we? We’d got to carry it. Anyway, we were back in blues then and it was, oh it was hot when we got back here. It was a beautiful summer. I think it was around about July or August. Got sent home on this embarkation leave for about a month. Then what happened? Oh, I know. I got posted. Waiting for a posting this end I got posted to RAF Silverstone. I think it was 70 OTU, on Wellingtons which was quite nice really. It wasn’t too good for getting home though at weekends. But anyway, I did do. We weren’t there long before they closed Silverstone and we went to, from there to North Luffenham. North Luffenham was, well Silverstone Aerodrome we were, anyway it was a wartime station. We were posted everywhere. Everybody was issued with a bike to get to the technical site.
HB: Oh yeah. And of course that’s Silverstone in Northamptonshire. Where the —
JS: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: Where the Grand Prix circuit is now.
JS: We were all issued with a bike. You had to watch your bike though because if somebody broke the chain they’d pinch yours [unclear] puncture. You had to take your bike to bed with you more or less. Tie it to the side of the bed. Anyway, they closed Silverstone and we got sent from there, the same unit to North Luffenham. That was near Oakham, wasn’t it?
HB: What, was that an OTU?
JS: Terrible that was. Pardon?
HB: Was that an OTU?
JS: Yeah. The same one. The same unit.
HB: Oh right. The whole kit and caboodle moved. Yeah.
JS: They moved out and we moved in.
HB: Right.
JS: But the bull there was terrible. No matter what time you would hear the bugle would go at night we had to stand and salute the blooming direction of the flag. It was terrible there. Anyway, they closed that. Well, they didn’t close it. We got moved from there to Swinderby. The same unit again. There had been Lancasters I think at Swinderby but we took the old Wellingtons there. And from there I got demobbed.
HB: Right.
JS: I got demobbed in [pause] it was that bad winter. Was it ’46? ’47?
HB: ’46/47. Yeah.
JS: Just right coming back from the tropics, wasn’t it? Anyway, I got a job at Avro’s which was only just down from that. Four or five miles wouldn’t it be.
HB: Can I just stop you there, John. You’ve come back. You’ve gone to these OTUs. What was, what were the OTUs doing with the Wellingtons?
JS: Training crews.
HB: They were training crews.
JS: Operational training units.
HB: Right. Right
JS: Training crews I should think. Yeah. On an OTU.
HB: Right.
JS: And then —
HB: So you, so you came back. You get demobbed at Swinderby.
JS: I got demobbed from Swinderby. We had to go back up to West Kirby to get demobbed.
HB: Oh blimey.
JS: And you got, of course, you got a suit and everything didn’t you and a bowler hat [laughs] or a shirt and tie.
HB: Yeah.
JS: And you had to, you were supposed to keep your uniform because you weren’t officially demobbed fully. You were only put on hold for the duration of the present emergency.
HB: Right.
JS: You see, so they could send you back anytime they wanted you.
HB: Right. So, yeah.
JS: If war broke out again.
HB: So, it wasn’t like —
JS: It didn’t.
HB: It wasn’t like the Reserve. It was —
JS: I got a job at Avro’s.
HB: Yeah.
JS: And strangely enough they got a big contract for York refurbishments. I was working on the same aircraft that I had been on in the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
JS: [unclear]
HB: So where was Avro’s at the time?
JS: Langar.
HB: Yeah.
JS: It was only about four miles from home.
HB: Yeah.
JS: Probably not that.
HB: You were still a single man.
JS: Yeah.
HB: Right.
JS: And I think I was there, I was there about twenty one years actually at Avro’s but I was on engines just the same. Well, I did all systems of engines. I specialised on engine controls at Avro’s and to be on them you had to be, you had to have a [AID] approval. Air Ministry inspected approval. So, I got quite an interesting job there actually.
HB: Did you have to take exams to get that?
JS: No. No. No.
HB: That was, yeah.
JS: It was just something you got. You just got inspected for. You got your job inspected, you know. And I was on engines there. We had a Lanc. We had a York contract and we had a Lancaster contract. We had Lincolns, Shackletons, Vulcans.
HB: The Vulcan.
JS: Yeah. We did experimental jobs on Vulcans. We changed the, we did an experimental fitting of the conway on the Vulcan. And then another one we did we fitted a very high-powered Olympus engine on another one. It was so high powered it was sucking the skin off the intake. But anyway and then another Vulcan when we did the Blue Steel rocket. That was very very secret. They even screened our parents for that.
HB: Did they?
JS: And I got married then in, when [pause] in ’56. I was still at Avro’s. And then of course in ’68 they closed it down. The runways weren’t, it wasn’t worth doing or something. I don’t know.
HB: Yeah. Wow.
JS: I can still quote you the firing order of a Merlin engine.
HB: Quote me the firing order.
JS: A1, B6, A4, B3, A2, B5, A6, B1, A3, B4, A5, B2.
HB: Never forget it.
JS: No.
HB: So overall, you know considering you went in in ’42, you know and you’re well in to ‘46 coming up ’47 when you finished what, what’s your, what’s your biggest, your longest memory? Your best memory of your time during the war.
JS: Comradeship. Miss it a lot. I must tell you this. When, after I’d been at Avro’s some time about the first month or two I just couldn’t settle. I missed the, I seemed to miss the lads and the comradeship, you know. I mean, when you’ve been living with say twenty lads for three years nearly it was like a family wasn’t it? You used to share each other’s joys and sorrows. But I missed, oh I did miss the lads. There came a scheme because that cold war was starting and they bought a bounty scheme out where you could get, they would pay you three hundred pound to go back and you’d keep the same, everything the same as when you left. So, I thought oh I considered doing that and I sent for the papers but as it happened my dad had a, like a stroke, didn’t he? And I thought I just couldn’t leave mother again so I scrubbed around it. But while we were at Langar on the Yorks the Berlin Airlift was on and we worked, we could work for twenty four hours a day because if we wanted because the Yorks were ferrying everything in weren’t they? The Yorks and Dakotas and that and they were all coming back to us in a terrible state.
HB: Yeah. Yeah, and you were doing the maintenance.
JS: Yeah.
HB: On the engines for that. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
HB: So, it was the comradeship that kept you.
JS: Oh yeah.
HB: Going.
JS: I missed it terrible.
HB: When, when you were out in India you were almost isolated.
JS: Yeah.
HB: This RAF camp. What did you do? I mean how did you work for leave?
JS: Oh yes.
HB: Because you were there for what? Three years.
JS: Yes. well, on leave I was. Yes, I must you that. We had a month’s leave each year and I used to go with Alf who I was with all the time. Alf and I we used to go to Simla in the Himalayas. It’s Shimla now. They’ve put an H in it now, haven’t they? We used to go there for a month. I’ve got some nice photographs of that and it used to take us, it used to be a day and a half to cross the Sindh desert by train.
HB: Yeah.
JS: And then another it would take us two days to get to Simla anyway and two days back but it was lovely up there. Seven thousand five hundred feet up, isn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
JS: We did that and then what else? We were so near the, as I say the Arabian Sea. We were at the edge of the desert and there was absolutely nothing there whatsoever. Only desert. We built a, like a little camp there with packing cases of whatever the glider, oh, we had a glider assembly place at Mauripur. We weren’t on that but they came in packing cases and we built this, like a rest camp right on the edge of the sea and we used to go over. We could go there for a weekend or if we got, you know slack time we used to go. We used to bike there across the desert. Yeah. It was smashing there because we never used to wear a stitch [laughs] Not a stitch.
HB: I was starting to wonder they gave you a uniform [laughs]
JS: You were in and out of the sea. There was nobody at all. Only us.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: We were in and out the sea. I’ve got photographs of it but they did put some shorts on for —
HB: Yeah. So —
JS: Oh, it was, it was smashing there.
HB: Yeah.
JS: You know, it was different. You can’t imagine. I can’t imagine it now, you know and how it was, how relaxed it was there. There used to be, you used to go for long walks right along the beach at night. Of course, there were no mosquitoes there you see at the edge of the sea. So, of course, in the camp we had to sleep under a mossie net and the only big thing about the beds were we used to get blooming bed bugs terrible. And they were only like threaded string along the wooden frame so what we used to do we used to bring a can full of [unclear] petrol back from the tech site, take your bed outside into the middle of the square where there was nothing. Only sand. Louse it with petrol to kill them.
HB: Ah, I thought you were going to say you were —
JS: Bang the blooming bed down and out came the bugs.
HB: I thought you were going to say you set fire to it. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that would it. That would do it.
JS: Aye. And in the corner of the mosquito net and the damned bed bugs were terrible. And I’ll tell you what else we used to get a lot of. Scorpions. You used to have to tip your shoes upside down at night before you got in to bed because they used to get inside them. What else? Well, there was Praying Mantis and [unclear] cobras under the chocs we used to get. Quite a lot of them.
HB: What, what, what were they?
JS: They were like a big lizard only very poisonous like. Big things. They used to go under the chocs. We’d pull the chocs away probably one of those things would run out.
HB: Sounds a bit —
JS: You got used to it didn’t you?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’d have to. That’s where you were working. Yeah.
JS: Well, the scorpions, if you got a scorpion you used to kick it outside and put a ring of petrol around it and light it and it used to commit suicide, don’t they?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, so did you, you’d got this massive airfield at Mauripur. You’ve got all these planes coming in. You’ve got all different aircraft types coming in. You’ve got people going, passing through. I mean you must have had, you must have had some accidents.
JS: Oh, we did. We had. We had terrible accidents. We had a Liberator crash one night and of course right around the airfield there was this massive ditch built. Monsoon ditch. Ditch Like a big dry riverbed to protect the airfield in the monsoons but it never did. But anyway, that’s what it was for and this Liberator must have, I don’t know how it managed to crash but it crashed into one of these monsoon ditches, ditches and there was eight Army sergeants in that. Killed them all. Burned out. And you see in those days we had to bury the same day in that climate. We had to, we used to, me being on guard we used to have to fire over the grave and they used to take photos of the grave to send back to the, of course some of these lads were all different religions as well. They had to have different burials [unclear]
HB: And that was, and that was there was a cemetery on the airfield was there? Right.
JS: There was a cemetery in town.
HB: In town.
JS: In Karachi. Yeah. RAF cemetery.
HB: Right.
JS: Well, a troop cemetery because there was a big army barracks there as well. Napier Barracks.
HB: Oh right. So, we’ve been out there, that your best memory is the comradeship. What’s your worst memory? What was the thing that you hated the most?
JS: Heat.
HB: The heat.
JS: Ahum. You got used to it and I tell you what, you used to get awful prickly heat. That was awful. You used to get it around your waist and that. Anywhere where your clothes fitted tight.
HB: What, what was the treatment for that?
JS: None. Eventually, right towards the back end of while we were there they organised hot baths and it was a crude affair. They used to do boil the water outside in this mass tub and the old ones used to come and fill the hot baths for you and you used to get as much hot water over you as you could because it opened your pores and you got rid of, it was the salt in your pores that causes prickly heats and the heat and the water opened your pours and cleaned it all out. So it was quite a good cure for it. But there was no other cure.
HB: Right. So, we’ve come out. Come back. We’re back in England. We’ve gone to work at Avro’s at Langar. So how did you meet your wife?
JS: A dance.
Other: A dance in [Woolsthorpe]
JS: Well, my brother is married to the wife’s oldest cousin.
HB: Right.
JS: Well, we I think we were at a ball at [Woolsthorpe] weren’t we?
Other: [Woolsthorpe] yeah.
HB: Yeah. And that was it.
JS: There’s one other thing I forgot to mention was the monsoons. About [pause] well prevailing wind used to mostly come from the sea which wasn’t too bad but when the monsoons was coming, about June it would change around completely and come from the land. And then we had the most awful sandstorms. Terrible. With having no doors or windows in the barracks, in the billet, it used to fill everything with darned sand.
HB: It must have made maintenance difficult.
JS: And they had to close the airfield.
HB: Yeah. It must have made maintenance on the engines difficult.
JS: Oh well, they had to shut everything down and wrap everything up. Put the engine covers on and everything. It used to like come in drifts but we were issued with special spectacles for that. They had guards on the side because it affected your eyes and used to wrap around your legs. It was terrible. And then when the monsoons came well it was, we only had, it used to last about a week. It used to flood the complete blooming airfield. We’d got no work again and it used to, like I say this monsoon ditch which was supposed to drain it away but it never did but originally the old, well the old it used to wash the top off the blooming billet because it was only like mud. Eventually they proper roofing on. But we used to have to put your ground sheets across the top of your bed just to —
HB: I see. Make do and mend.
JS: I’ll tell you what else it used to be good before. It used to cure the prickly heat. As soon as it used to rain everybody used to strip off completely and run out in it.
HB: So, you didn’t have many female staff on the station then.
JS: None. Oh well, they didn’t bother. These Indian women used to do all the work, didn’t they? The builders and everything.
HB: Yeah.
JS: They didn’t bother. We didn’t bother about them but we did have a, each have a, each billet had a bearer which was an Indian sort of coolie. We used to pay them a Roopee each a week and he used to, we had a water bottle [unclear] we had a bottle. He used to fill that for us, make our beds and sweep the floor and do that for us. Paid him a rupee a week.
HB: Yeah.
JS: He lived on that as well. That would be ten rupees a week which used to be about a pound wouldn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
JS: Not quite a pound.
HB: Yeah. Well, it’s fascinating John. I can see, I can see why we wanted your interview.
JS: Well, that was life in India.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And what, after Avro finished in the 60s what did you do then?
JS: Went up to [pet foods] in Melton.
HB: Oh right. Right.
JS: Got a job in the maintenance there.
HB: Yeah. Well, I think that brings us neatly to the end of the interview, you know. And if you’re happy.
JS: Yeah. Are you happy?
HB: I’m always happy. I’ll stop the interview now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Shipman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-10
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AShipmanJ181010, PShipmanJ1802
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:05:31 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
John Shipman was born in Stathern, Leicester and as a teenager would cycle to Melton Mowbray to attend ATC meetings. He joined the RAF and started training as a flight mechanic. He joined a troop ship to start his posting and the journey took a very long six weeks before he finally arrived in India. Conditions on base were rudimentary and their tools were basic and there was a make do and mend mentality. John worked on a wide range of aircraft. He was promoted to the role of fitter. After the war, in 1946 there was a strike among the Servicemen who were frustrated at the delays in sending them home for demob.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1946-01-22
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
India
Pakistan
Pakistan--Karachi
B-24
C-47
demobilisation
ground crew
ground personnel
military discipline
military living conditions
military service conditions
Raf Mauripur
training
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/621/10279/NParryHP-161011-010006.1.jpg
304f243956d67a1d10137d5c9b07f990
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parry, Hugh
Hugh Pryce Parry
H P Parry
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parry, HP
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. Two oral history interviews with Hugh Parry (b. 1925, 2220054 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and newspaper cuttings. Hugh Parry flew operations as an air gunner with 75 Squadron and then as a photographer and air gunner with 90 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Hugh Parry and catalogued by Stuart Bennett.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Each force had its own zone of attack. Bomber Command went for main line viaducts near Paderborn and at Bielefeld, and for benzol plants at Scholven and [underlined] Osterfeld; [/underlined] the Eighth bombed east of the Rhine; the Ninth west of the Rhine and so on.
Lancasters, Halifaxes, Liberators, and Fortresses for the first time broke into groups of three or four aircraft and flew at 1,500 to 2,000 feet to pin-point railway bridges, junctions and sidings.
[inserted] 22-2-45 [/inserted]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Operation to the Rhine
Description
An account of the resource
Account of bombing targets near Paderborn and Bielefeld, benzol plants at Scholven and Osterfeld. Osterfeld is underlined. Pinpoint attack on targets. Captioned '22-2-45'.
Date
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1945-02
Format
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One newspaper cutting
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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NParryHP-161011-010006
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Germany
Rhine River
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1945-02-22
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Andy Hamilton
B-17
B-24
bombing
Halifax
Lancaster
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/608/10282/AMcDonaldEA150918.2.mp3
0f2d6ecf3f91adbe56622e816552729a
Dublin Core
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Title
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McDonald, Edward Allan
E A McDonald
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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McDonald, EA
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. Two oral history interviews with Edward Allan McDonald (1922 - 2020, 1076170, Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, documents and photographs. He flew 28 operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Edward Allan McDonald and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2015-07-13
2015-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: Right. This is an interview with Edward Alan McDonald or Alan McDonald, by Dan Ellin. We’re in Riseholme Hall. It is the 18th of September 2015. So, Mr McDonald could you tell me a little bit about your early life, your childhood and how you came about to be in the RAF?
AM: Yes. I think I can. I was, unfortunately it’s a bit of a miserable story this. My father was killed when I was four and so of course my mother had to bring us up. But anyway after that misfortune my mother looked after us very well as best she could. And I always fancied —my uncle he used to take me to Hedon Aerodrome which was just outside of Hull. And it was a landing field. It wasn’t, no runways on it. And it was where Sir Alan Cobham used to visit and give his displays. And I used to go there on my uncles crossbar and we used to come on the outside of Hedon Aerodrome and watch the various displays that Sir Alan Cobham went through which fascinated me. And from there onwards I wanted to be a pilot. And it’s a long story this because with me wanting to be a pilot I went to the recruiting office at what I thought was the right age. The war was on now. And they sa said ys, ‘What do you want to be?’ I said, ‘I want to be a pilot.’ ‘Have you got a secondary education?’ ‘No.’ ‘No. You haven’t. Well you can’t be a pilot so forget about aircrew. You can’t be aircrew. You’ll have to be ground staff.’ So I said, ‘Is there any way I can get —?. ‘No. There’s no way around it. You either have or haven’t passed in to a secondary education. You’ve not. You can’t be aircrew.’ So, anyroads I went on now to a place in Ireland to a place called Nutts Corner which was a Coastal Command station. And it was Fortresses and Liberators flown by the RAF and I enjoyed being there. I enjoyed being connected with the aircraft and getting trips home in any aircraft which was empty. And I worked on flying control at the station and I was putting the angle of glide out. What they called the glims out. Which were small three legged lights down the runway and down the perimeter tracks. Sorry, I’ll correct myself there. It wasn’t on the runway we put them in. It was on the perimeter track.
DE: Right.
AM: Back to the dispersals with these small lights that were battery driven. And then down the runways we had like the old type watering can.
DE: Yes.
AM: Full of paraffin and a very thick wick down the spout and we put them one every hundred yards at each side of the runway. And then we had, at the beginning of the runway, a chance light which could be used. And we also had an angle of glide which was for the oncoming pilot to see if he was in the right position for descending on the runway. Anyway, that episode passed very nicely but the next thing was they asked me to work with control. In control. So I did. I worked in there and I was in there one day and they said to me, ‘You’re going on leave on Monday aren’t you Mac?’ So I said, ‘Yeah. Why?’ They says, ‘Well there’s an aircraft going somewhere near. Near Hull. Do you know, have you ever heard of Leconfield?’ I said, ‘Oh yes. That is. That’s just outside Hull. It’s near Beverley. Oh if I can get a lift there I’m as good as home.’ So the next day we had to be there for 9 o’clock. And I’d taken three of my mates with me and they also were included in the load for this Wellington which was coming there. But anyroads as the day arrived and the time arrived it was cancelled. And so they monitored all the around aerodromes and at Aldergrove, sorry at Langford Lodge there was an American Lockheed Hudson going to the mainland that day and they would take us if we could get there. So we hitchhikes from Nutts Corner to Langford Lodge which was on the banks of Loch Neagh. And having got to Langford lodge the American guard outside with a rifle and a bayonet on said, ‘What do you guys want?’ So, ‘We’ve come to get a lift on a Lockheed Hudson through to the mainland.’ ‘You aint going from here bud.’ So we said, ‘Why?’ They said, ‘Well there’s been an accident and the two pilots have been killed and they’re in the runway.’ And anyway I don’t want to relate the story which I do know about but anyway they said, ‘We’ll ask around the different ‘dromes if anybody’s got aircraft going to the mainland.’ Yes. The station we’d come from — they had. Another Wellington was coming in. So they put a jeep on. And I’m sure the jeep passed any aircraft. He certainly got this clog down did that American. They’re a grand lot to me. I think that we owe a great deal to the Americans. In my opinion they were the best people in the world. Some of the best people in the world. They really helped us a lot. That’s my opinion. But, anyway, regardless of that we got through to Nutts Corner and there was a Wellington just ticking over at the end of the runway. We get on to the Wellington and off we goes. Now, he, the driver of this jeep that brought us, he stopped I’m sure two inches from the side of the Wellington and I mean two, I’m serious when I say two inches. That’s the distance he stopped. But anyroads, we got in to the Wellington. Off we goes and we flies out over Bangor and we goes across the Irish Sea across to Scotland and across the Scotch coast. We head south and we goes along the Scotch coast. Then we go along the English coast. Then we go along the Welsh coast and then we eventually comes to Lands End. And we’re out at sea all the time. Not over land at any time. And now we’re going out in to the South Atlantic as far as Britain is concerned. And then we turns to the east towards France. And going along the coast or to that particular position we had glorious sunshine all the way, and I was stood in the astrodome. The other three were sat on the floor of the Wellington. I should have mentioned this but I’ll mention it now. And I had a good view from the — where I was stood. Anyway, we’re now going along the south coast past Southampton and those places until I estimated, we were in and out of cloud all the way along the south coast, and as we were going along past Southampton I thought well we must be getting somewhere near to the coast — Dover now. And if we are near Dover I should be able to see France with a bit of luck. I’d never ever seen France before then and I was looking forward to seeing it. Anyroads, we gets, comes out of the cloud and lo and behold at the side us, and within about fifteen yards of us, no more, that was the maximum, was an ME109. So I had no means of communicating with the pilot. So I ran to the front of the aircraft, tapped the pilot on the shoulder and this is what I did.
DE: [laughs] the Nazi salute and a Hitler moustache. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. I went through all the motions to let the pilot know that there was a fighter there.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And so he stood up and looked through a panel at the back of the Wellington which I didn’t know he could see through, above the top of the fuselage but he could. There was about ten inches or so where he could look through the canopy for anything behind him. I saw his face change and then he dashed back to the controls, put us straight into a dive and we went into a cloud. And then we headed for Dover. And then when we got to Dover we headed then inland and went to a place called Nuneaton and landed. Now, we get out of the aircraft and we’re walking along to exit the ‘drome. Nuneaton drome. And somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, ‘Thanks lad.’ [laughs] with a smile on his face. So —
DE: I’ll bet.
AM: It was, it was nice to hear him say that. But anyroads, it worked. So we got away from Fritz there. Very –
DE: Yeah. That was lucky.
AM: Very fortunate. Why I turned around there on that particular second to look at France I don’t know. I don’t think we were anywhere near France. But anyroad I had done.
DE: Yeah.
AM: It was a mistake which turned out to be our advantage.
DE: Yeah. Very lucky.
AM: So that was that little story. But anyroads, from there on I had my leave. I went back. I went down to Dublin and I got chased in Dublin. We arrived in Dublin, my girlfriend and I, and I says, ‘Oh,’ we’d just got off the station and there was a big meeting not far from the station. Maybe hundreds of yards or so. And I says, ‘I bet that’s the IRA.’ She says, ‘It will be the IRA. Don’t go near it.’ I says, ‘Well I want to know what they’re saying about us.’ I says, ‘All we get is the newspaper reports about the IRA but I want to hear what they say myself.’ So she says, ‘Don’t go to the meeting. You’ll wish you hadn’t.’ So, anyroads, I says, ‘Are you staying there or are you coming with me?’ She says, I’ll come with you.’ Well when I was at school I used to run in the school sports each year. I liked running. I liked it but I never put my back into it and I should have done. But anyway that’s beside the point now. But anyroads, what happened was [pause] I’ve lost my place now.
DE: The IRA meeting.
AM: IRA meeting. That’s right. Yes. What happened with that was that as I was walking towards the meeting there was several hundred there. The man in the middle pointed straight at me and I couldn’t understand why. Why he’d done it. And the crowd turned around and then they surged. Actually surged. ‘Come on. Run.’ So we ran. She was from Ireland and she says, ‘Run.’ She says, ‘It’s the IRA.’ Anyroads, we did run. I held her hand and we both ran down O’Connell Street in Dublin and I won’t say where we got but we got somewhere where they didn’t find us. And anyroads we evaded them and now it was dusk. And we went along the street, O’Connell Street and there was a cinema at the end of this street. I went into the cinema and, ‘How many seats?’ She says, ‘There’s only two left. They’re on the front row.’ I says, ‘They’ll do.’ So we got the two seats on the front row. And the young lady that I was with was called Myrtle and the picture was an American picture. And there was a man sat in the chair as I’m sat here and a door there and a man comes in, ‘Now then Joe,’ he says, ‘How’s that gal of yours?’ He says, ‘Do you mean Myrtle?’ ‘Myrtle,’ he says, ‘I didn’t know they called her Myrtle,’ he says, ‘If I’d a gun I’d have shot her.’ She’d got a name called Myrtle and there was Myrtle at the side of me. But I thought that was funny that. They were going to shoot her if they called her Myrtle. But that was just one little thing, little episode in Ireland.
DE: Yes.
AM: But there was many others of a similar nature. I was on a bicycle going from a place called [Sleaven Lecloy?] Now [Sleaven Lecloy?] was a dummy aerodrome and I was on that dummy aerodrome. And what happened on that dummy aerodrome was that when we used to come away from the place you had two ways to go. We could either go, come up a long lane which led from the dummy ‘drome to the road, which was only a narrow road in any case and when they got to this road they could turn left and go to the station and then to Belfast. Or you could go to the right towards Lisburn and then go down towards the Falls Road. Well in Belfast there’s two roads. There’s the Falls Road this side and the Shanklin Road that side and they’re both parallel with each other. The Falls Road is a Catholic road. This road here, the —
DE: Shanklin.
AM: Shanklin Road. That there is a Protestant road. And of course the dagger’s drawn. They never should be. They should be good friends.
DN: Yeah.
AM: But unfortunately they’re not and if you were seen in the Falls Road by people in the Falls Road you was liable to be stripped naked of your uniform and everything, tied to lamppost and they’d pour tar over you. A bucket of pitch. And then they would give you a good lashing. And then they’d leave you there for the —that was the Catholics. They would leave you there to be dealt with by the police. They would come along. Well I was going the Falls Road which, from where I was at [Sleaven Lecloy, Sleaven Lecloy] is up here in the mountain and you come down all the way to Falls Road. All the way down in to the centre of the town. It’s all downhill. Every inch of it. Now, I’m going down the Falls Road on a pushbike and on the right hand side I noticed a chap stood outside a cinema with a sten gun. I thought well that would be the IRA. As I got near to him he set the Sten gun on to me. Fortunately for me a tram car came between him and me. And of course I kept pace with this tram car. I didn’t lose the tram car for quite a way. I got full steam up and went downhill with the tram car on the bike. So I escaped from that but this is just some of the little hitches in your stay in Northern Ireland. And in Southern Ireland for that matter. And it’s all silly nonsense to my way of thinking.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Nobody’s doing anything for any good. It’s all a lot of nonsense that they’re encouraging. To kill people that they don’t know. Anyway, I won’t go on that tack but anyway, fortunately I got out of it and fortunately I made many friends there. And I had a great time in Ireland. In Northern Ireland and I did in Southern Ireland. But there was this here, what shall I say? Shadow hanging over all the events. And anyway that was just one of the things that happened. And then whilst I was in Ireland I decided I would have another try at being aircrew.
DE: Yes.
AM: I’d had a lot of dealings with aircraft there. With Fortresses and Liberators at dispersals. Anyway, the warrant officer says to me, ‘Mac,’ he says to me, ‘Don’t you understand what I’m saying?’ ‘Yes,’ I says, ‘I do,’ I says, ‘And I still want to be aircrew.’ So he says, ‘Can’t you think of any other words but you want to be aircrew?’ So I says, ‘Well that’s what I want to be I says. I’ll stop pestering you when I become air crew.’ So he says, ‘Is that a threat?’ You know. I can’t remember his exact words but he implied that I was threatening him by saying this which I probably was. But anyroads, he says, ‘I’ll see what I can do for you.’ Because I’d been so many times he says his hair was falling out. But anyway, a tannoy went, ‘Would E A McDonald report to the station education officer.” So I went and, ‘Anybody know where he is?’ So somebody gave me directions and I found him. And he says, ‘You’ve been plaguing the life out of the station warrant officer. You want to be aircrew. Well,’ he says, ‘If you’re sincere and mean what you say and put your back in to what you’re going to get you’ll become air crew. But otherwise you won’t.’ So, he says, ‘To start with — do you want to be aircrew or don’t you? Let’s get that straight because,’ he says, ‘I don’t want to waste my time with you if you’re not going to put your back into it.’ Words to that effect. Maybe they were not the exact words but they implied that to me. So I says, ‘Well, I do want to be aircrew,’ and I says, ‘And I will put my back into it.’ So anyroads he says, ‘Right.’ He gave me a programme which I had to abide by and I spent quite a bit of time being schooled there. So the day of reckoning came. Well I was trembling. I thought, I bet I’ve failed. I feel sure I’ve failed. And I was saying it over and over to myself and getting worked up. Anyroads, when I went to see him he says, ‘Congratulations.’ So I says, ‘What for?’ So he says, ‘You are McDonald aren’t you?’ I says, ‘Yeah. I am.’ ‘ So he says, ‘Well you’ve matriculated.’ Well the word matriculated. To me I’d never heard the word before and I thought what’s he on about. Matriculated. What does that mean? He said, ‘You’ve matriculated.’ So anyroad when you get back to the billet there was a man in our billet called Fred Hillman and this Fred Hillman you could ask him anything and he’d always — he was like King Solomon. He knew every answer to every question. And he says to me, ‘How have you gone on Mac?’ So I says, ‘I don’t know really. I don’t. Honest. I don’t know.’ He says, ‘Are you meaning that you haven’t passed?’ I says, ‘No. I’m not meaning that at all.’ I said, ‘I hope I have,’ I says, ‘Because he shook hands with me and I thought was a good indication but he also said I’ve matriculated, and I’ve never heard that word before.’ So he says, ‘Well I’ll tell you what it means. It means you’ve qualified to enter a university.’ So I says, Are you joking?’ He said, ‘No. I’m not Mac. That’s what it means.’ So I says, ‘Thank you very much,’ I said, ‘Then I’ve passed.’ He says, ‘Yes. You’ve passed.’ So I went back. What happened was I was there for a fortnight and there’s a part of this story I can’t tell you. I can’t tell you why and it’s not something I’ve done wrong. It’s something that happened to me and I don’t know how it came about. But anyroads it happened and I’ll leave the matter at that. But what it was when I arrived there, at the station at RAF headquarters there was a WVS van outside. And this place was I would say as big as Buckingham palace where I went to RAF headquarters. And the young lady in the WVS van said to me, ‘You’re McDonald aren’t you?’ So I says, ‘How do you know my name?’ She says, ‘Oh I know a little bit about you.’ I says, ‘You know a little bit about me?’ I says, ‘I’ve never been here before,’ I said, ‘You can’t know anything about me.’ ‘Oh but I do,’ she says, ‘And they know about you in there.’ So I says, ‘In where?’ She said, ‘You see those two doors? You go in the right hand door. Don’t go in the left hand door. Go in the right hand door and when you go into that room you’ll be there with seventeen WAAFs and three airmen, and you’re one of the three airmen.’ So I says, ‘What about that then?’ She says, ‘Well you’ll find out when you get in.’ She said, ‘I’m not going to tell you.’ So I says, ‘I don’t get this,’ I says, ‘I’ve never been here before.’ So she says, ‘Well maybe you haven’t but,’ she says, ‘I know about you. And you’ll find out why when you get inside.’ So I says, ‘This is funny this is. I can’t make head nor tail of what’s going on.’ So anyroads I went into the room and nothing was said. Not a word except, ‘Hello.’ That’s all. Anyroad, I thought well this is funny, what’s she on about. They haven’t says anything. So this — I had to for an interview with an officer there and he says, ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘You’ve come here for some exams haven’t you?’ So I said, ‘I understand so.’ So he said, ‘Right, well we’ll deal with that while you’re here but we’ll explain to you that while you’re here what we want you to do maybe wont occupy all your time. So your time that you have surplus to our requirements — it’ll be yours and you’ll not be expected to do anything in that time, but otherwise you’ll be taking documents from office A to office B. And you’ll — I want a signature from office B to take back to office A and maybe to office C and so on. And these documents want signing for.’ Anyroad, I was doing this and then I got a funny comment. ‘Oh it’s you is it Mac?’ I thought, ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Oh it’s you is it Mac?’ And this was a WAAF and I thought, I can’t get this. They seem to know a bit about me. So I says, ‘Have you got the right Mac?’ She says, ‘You’re McDonald aren’t you and you’ve come here for some exams?’ I said, ‘Yes that right.’ I says, ‘How do you know about me? ‘Oh,’ she says, ‘Oh never mind. I do.’ So I thought well this is blooming funny and they made a mystery to me of myself and I didn’t know what was happening. Anyroads, in the end this person came up to me and said, ‘You’re bringing my tea and my cakes and we’ll have a squaring up.’ So I says ok. Thinking that I would I would pay for mine and they would pay for theirs. And this person that I’m talking about, I didn’t know who it was. I hadn’t a clue who she was. And she says, ‘I’ll pay for the tea and the cakes.’ I says, ‘You will not.’ I says, ‘I’m an LAC,’ and I pointed to my arm which was like a little propeller on my arm.
DE: Yes.
AM: I said, ‘I’ll be on a lot more money than you.’ So she says, ‘I’ll pay for you.’ I said, ‘You won’t.’ She says, ‘I will.’ So I said, ‘You’re not paying for my tea and cakes. I’ll pay for yours or we’ll pay for our own. Whichever way you want it but you’re not paying for mine.’ So she says, ‘I’ll pay for yours and don’t argue with me.’ I thought you’re a bit bossy. Who are you? Anyroad, I’ll not go into that. I’ll leave that as a blank, blank cheque as to who she was. Now then, I left there and I started as air crew. Training that is.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And I went to, to St John’s Wood. And whilst I was in St John’s Wood the sergeant came to me. He says, ‘Stores. You.’ I said, ‘Stores? What am I going to the stores for?’ He said ‘you’ll take your uniform off you’ve got with you and you’ll put a brand new uniform on. Brand new shoes, brand new cap. All brand new.’ He said, ‘And then tomorrow you’re going to meet someone.’ So I said, ‘Who?’ So he did tell me who it was. It was the queen. The queen mother. The queen at that time. And we were all lined up and it come to my turn to be introduced to Her Majesty The Queen. And I started speaking and nothing came out. And it had never happened to me ever before but it did then. And I was trying to speak and nothing happened whatsoever. So she passed on to the next one. And so that was a little experience there. And from there I went on to [pause]was it Bridlington or Bridgnorth? Bridgnorth? Bridlington. I think Bridlington we went to. From Bridlington to Bridgnorth. Bridgnorth through to Evaton. They called it, in Scotland Evaton. I called it Evanton. E V A N T O N.
DE: Yes.
AM: But they called it Evaton. I asked on the, the man on the station, the worker there. He says to me,’ Are you lost?’ I says, ‘I think so,’ I says, ‘I don’t know which platform to get on the train for Evanton.’ ‘There’s no such place as that around here.’ So he says, ‘Let’s have a look at your pass. Oh you mean Evaton,’ he says. ‘Oh ok then. Evaton.’ So I went to Evaton and we were flying there with the Polish pilots. Every pilot there as far as I’m aware. I never saw and English pilot there but there may have been one that I hadn’t seen. But any roads I was flying with the Polish pilots. We were machine gunning dummy tanks.
DE: Yes.
AM: And I had quite a good experience there of flying. And on a morning each day as we came out the billets the Polish pilots were coming out their billets which was next to ours or near enough to us and of course the first thing they would say was, ‘Dzien dobry.’
DE: Good Morning. Yes.
AM: And I would say, ‘Dzien dobry,’ And in the afternoon I think it was, ‘dobry wieczor.’ And all because I could say, ‘Dzien dobry,’ only by mimicking them. Could I do it? I didn’t actually — I couldn’t have spelt it.
DE: No.
AM: Or maybe I could but maybe I couldn’t. But anyway they were ever so friendly towards me. And when I went into the aircraft, ‘Oh he’s here.’ You know. You got a nice welcome. And we were doing machine gun practice and all sorts of exercises with them and then we progressed from there and we went to Bridgnorth. And then from Bridgnorth we went to Syertson — not Syerston. Winthorpe. Winthorpe to Syerston. Winthorpe was Stirlings and on the Stirlings we went on leaflet raids over Germany with the bomber stream.
DE: Yes.
AM: Now we could only reach four thousand feet and they were up at ten thousand feet and more sometimes. But with a Stirling it was called the flying coffin. And it was a coffin. It was a coffin. It was a nightmare to fly in.
DE: Yes.
AM: And we came back once with a Stirling and put the undercarriage down. And the starboard wheel went down and the port wheel went up and came out at the top of the wing and it shoved out the dinghy. And as the dinghy floated down to the ground it landed. It just missed a WAAF who was walking across the grass. And it just went, I’m sure, no more than, I doubt if it was six inches from behind her where it landed. And of course it would burst I should think and it would frighten the daylights out of her. I would think anyway. Because there was all the dinghy equipment with it as well. The transmitter and other equipment. So now we had to go to a place called Woodbridge and that was that. But I have missed that the first place we went to when we were flying was a place called a Market Harborough which was an OTU. This was after flying up in Scotland. And when we were flying in the OTU we were on night bombing exercises and we got airborne and I said to the skipper over the intercom, ‘Skipper, there’s a strong smell of petrol in the rear turret.’ So, he says, ‘Well keep me informed.’ So I said, ‘Ok skipper.’ So I rang up a bit later, I says, ‘It’s getting stronger, the smell of petrol.’ So he says, ‘Well it’s still reading ok Mac. I can’t understand what’s going on.’ So I called him a third time. I said, ‘It’s getting even stronger.’ So the fourth time I called him up I was soaked to the skin in petrol. I said, ‘My vest’s soaked in petrol. All my clothes. My flying clothes.’ And I said, ‘The bottom of the turret is full of petrol floating about on the floor.’ So he said, ‘Oh we’d better get back to base.’ This is night time. So we gets back to Market Harborough and coming in, in funnels.
DE: Yes.
AM: And almost about to land when the aircraft did an about turn. The engine cut out. One of the engines caught out. We did an about turn and she skimmed over the top of a building. Anyroad, we come down behind this building and we ran across two or three fields and as we were coming to slowing down I got the turret opened. I thought, well I’m not going to be in this. If it catches fire I don’t want to be about. So I sat on the turret the wrong way around. I’d got my legs dangling outside. And I had my parachute just in case it was needed. But this was before I landed I put it on but I’d still got it on. So anyway as we’re going along it was, it hit some bumps did the aircraft and the turret went up and down and threw me out. And as it threw me out the parachute caught on something. It caught in the wind and I got blown across this here field that I was in. On my back in the field. Anyroads, I managed to, you know just jettison the equipment.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And get up. And I was alright. I hadn’t got damaged in any way. And then I picked up my parachute up and I went to where the crew were congregating and the pilot, the farmer came up and he says — he used a bit of strong language. I won’t repeat that. I’ll leave that unsays. So I can leave that to anybody’s imagination. But what happened was, he says, ‘If you people,’ that’s the skipper he’s referring to, ‘If you people would get on with the war instead of playing about. Look what you’ve done to my corn field.’ He says, ‘You’ve nothing better to do than destroying my cornfield.’ He says, ‘We’re crying out for us to make production.’ And so he went into a blur about how he was being badly done to by aircrew not respecting him as though we’d come down there from choice which we’d not.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And anyroad, it had got quite flattened quite a bit. I would agree with him. But, and it was the middle of the night. It was dark. It wasn’t daylight. It was dark. Anyroad, we waited for transport to come and we went back to, to our place.
DE: Yes.
AM: We had to report it and give an explanation. Anyway, if we remember that. In a future episode of something this comes up again.
DE: Right. Ok.
AM: But it was on over in France where it occurred. We’d been on a raid in Germany and our route took us over Belgium at night time. And as we got crossing Belgium the anti-aircraft gun opened up on us and it hit the nose of the aircraft and blew a strip of aluminium off which was about fifteen to twenty foot long and about three to four foot wide. That was from behind the front turret right back to the where the pilot was. Not the pilot. The flight engineer who was sat next to the pilot. A great piece about that width stripped from the front turret right back to where he was. It had wiped out his controls on his dashboard. The skipper. It had ripped, the shrapnel had ripped through them. It had cut the navigator’s top of his flying boot, cut a big gash in it but didn’t damage his leg. Didn’t scratch his leg. And a piece of shrapnel went through the mid-upper gunner’s pannier of ammunition which was under his arms. One at each side. Went through it and stopped just below his arm. This big lump of shrapnel. And the aircraft, a piece had jammed in the controls when we were in a dive. And it had jammed the controls in such a way that the more he was pulling it to get us out it was getting tighter in the dive. So it wasn’t getting out the dive. It was getting us worse in to the dive.
DE: Sure. Yeah.
AM: So anyway, cut a long story short the skipper decides, ‘Well our time’s up now. Bale out.’ Well he gives the word bale out but I was, I didn’t find out then but I found out later, my intercom wire had been cut with the shrapnel so I didn’t hear the word bale out and I’m still looking for fighters in the rear turret. Getting my turret going from side to side to side to side. Up and down. Looking for fighters and that. We were in the searchlights. And we were going down. I thought we seemed to be going a long way down [laughs] anyway. Anyway, what happened was he decided after he’d told us to bale out he’d put it into a steeper dive and see if that would do any good. Which he did and the piece of shrapnel fell out. Because afterwards when we landed I went and found the piece of shrapnel that had caused the trouble. And I threw it into a field. I thought, you’ve done enough damage. We’re not keeping you anymore. So I threw it into the field. And anyway it got us out the dive and he cancelled the ‘Jump. Jump.’. But before he cancelled the, ‘Jump. Jump,’ Dougie who was at the front nearly got cut in two with this big piece of shrapnel that ripped the sheet of aluminium from the side.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And it just went above his head somehow. I don’t know how but this is what we were told. And Dougie baled out and landed in a wood. Now, Dougie the bomb aimer was a New Zealander. Also the skipper was a New Zealander. Hughie Skilling, the skipper —
DE: Yes.
AM: And Dougie Cruikshanks, the bomb aimer, were both from New Zealand and they both knew each other very well. And we had a crowd which was next to none. There was none, none to equal us. The friendship among us was unbelievable. It was absolute paradise to be in with them. They were a great crowd. The others as well as the skipper and the bomb aimer. The bomb aimer had gone now.
DE: Yeah.
AM: He’d landed in a forest at night time. And he says, I got, a lot of things he told me about what he did but they’d take too long to tell. He buried his stuff, his equipment. What he had. And came out of the wood. He didn’t know which way to go. He says, ‘I just picked and came and I came across a road.’ There was no traffic on the road whatsoever. He says, ‘I started walking and I thought am I walking the right way? I think I am.’ Anyroads, he says, ‘I’m walking west. I think. And arguing with himself. ‘Am I going west. Am I going east?’ And he says, ‘I had quite an argument with myself what I was doing.’ He says, ‘Until I come to a bend in the road. When I turned the bend , lo and behold just round the bend was two Germans there with rifles with fixed bayonets.’ He says, ‘Now what do I do? He says, ‘If I turn around and run away they’ll shoot me in the back.’ He said, so he said, ‘I pulled my shoulders back,’ he says, ‘And I marched past them in military fashion and they never says a word to me. They carried on talking.’ He says after marching past the two German sentries he says, ‘I came to — ’ I think he said it was an American sentry but I could be wrong about this. It might be a British sentry but I understood it to be an American sentry. And he took him in at bayonet point. Took him to his commanding officer. And his commanding officer said, ‘Oh, you’ve got another one have you?’ So Dougie pricked his ears up. Another one? Another one what? And he says, ‘We’ve got two of you Germans tied up outside. We’re going to, you’ll be tied up out there with them and the three of you will all be shot together.’ So he says, ‘You’re going to shoot me? What for?’ So they says, ‘Because you’re only pretending to be a New Zealander.’ He told them he was New Zealand. He says, ‘You’ve only told us you’re New Zealand but we don’t believe you. Not the way you’re talking. You speak better language than that in New Zealand.’ So anyroads they got him outside and were about to tie him up and shoot him with the other two that were supposed to be Germans in RAF uniform. So Dougie come out with some language. And the officer said, ‘Let that man go. The Germans couldn’t know such language. And so, Dougie, as I say, everything’s got a purpose. Well bad language had a purpose there.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And it saved Dougie from being shot. Now, they let him go and he went to Brussels from there, and when he got to Brussels he came to a meeting of squaddies and [pause] what do they call the announcer? Richard Dimbleby.
DE: Yes.
AM: Richard Dimbleby was talking and sending messages back. New Year messages back from the front line. And one of the soldiers says to Richard Dimbleby, ‘We’ve got an airman here why don’t you interview him?’ So he says, ‘Where is he? Put your hand up, the airman.’ So Dougie put his hand up. So he invited him to come to him. So he says, ‘How do you come to be where all these soldiers are? Where’s all your crew?’ So he says, ‘I’ve baled out of a Lancaster and I’ve been in a wood and I’ve walked so many miles on the road and I’ve been taken prisoner by,’ whether it was American or whoever it was, and he says, ‘They’ve let me go because I’ve used such bad language with them.’ So he explained this to Richard Dimbleby and Richard Dimbleby says, he says, ‘Where are you from then?’ He says, ‘I’m from New Zealand. From Christchurch.’ Which he was then. But after the war, since the war, I’ve been to New Zealand. The skipper invited me for a fortnight’s holiday at his place at Christchurch. And then when Dougie knew I was there he wasn’t, we were real good mates Dougie and I, and I met Dougie. We had to go to Dougie’s from Hughie Skilling’s place in Christchurch and it was a fair way. I should say it was twenty miles from where the skipper lived. But Dougie wanted to see me.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And when he saw me he put his arm around my shoulder and he says, oh, ‘Thanks for being our rear gunner.’ So that, that was Dougie. Anyway, we had a nice little natter did Dougie and I, and Hughie Skilling. We had a natter about things. And I think I mentioned about what the Germans said to Hughie. They called us Skilling’s Follies.
DE: Yes.
AM: And they’d sent word back that they would soon be having Skilling. So he said, ‘Before you get me you have to get our two gunners first.’ So he said, ‘You’ve got to get through them and then you might get me.’
DE: Was, was your aircraft painted up with the name on the side?
AM: No.
DE: No.
AM: No. We had. We didn’t have our own aircraft. The commanding officer used to let Hughie fly his aircraft which was VNG-George. But we didn’t always get his aircraft because other people were using it as well.
DE: Right.
AM: So we — sometimes we’d get T. T-Tommy. X-Xray. It could have been any aircraft. It’s in the logbook.
DE: Yeah.
AM: What the aircraft we flew in.
DE: How did the Germans know about Skilling’s Follies then do you think?
AM: Well [pause] well on our drome we had a spy. Not if. We did. Definitely. No matter what anybody says, we did. And what happened was one day I was going into the office block where the people — where we used to have briefings. Part of the building. And this officer came to me. He says, ‘Mac.’ So I thought he knows me. I don’t know him. Who he is. I thought who are you? So he says ‘Are you going in to,’ oh I was going to say Scunthorpe, ‘Are you going in to Lincoln? Are you?’ So, I said, ‘Yeah.’ He says, ‘Would you do a little job for me?’ So I said, ‘What’s that?’ He says, ‘Do you know where the taxidermist is in Lincoln?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ So I says, ‘Isn’t it somewhere near the station? Near the railway station isn’t it?’ he said, ‘That’s right. Yes. It is.’ So I says, ‘Oh fair enough.’ I said, ‘I just want to check up.’ He says, ‘Well I want you to take this if your will and leave it at taxidermist.’ I said, ‘What is it?’ He says, ‘It’s a bird.’ And it was in a packet. And he said, ‘I want you to take this to have it dealt with by the taxidermist.’ But I did know what a taxidermist was then but it wasn’t long previous to that before when I didn’t know what it meant. But anyroads I’d got to know what it meant and I took this parcel to this taxidermist. And afterwards I thought to myself [pause] I had a lot of thoughts about this encounter but I’ll not say what they were. And since the war it’s come to my notice several other things. And it was, they tried to find out. In fact, we had a do where Wing Commander Flint gave us a warning about something and he looked at me and I thought are you going to tell everybody I’ve taken a parcel there? I don’t want you to say that because it would look as though I’m working in league with the — whoever might be the, might be the ones. Anyroads, it didn’t work out that way. It was maybe my thoughts and maybe thinking too much of myself.
DE: You were worried there was a message inside the bird.
AM: Yeah. I was.
DE: Yeah.
AM: I thought, oh don’t say I’ve collaborated with the, with the enemy. And anyway it seemed that since then I’ve got to know various other bits of information and I wasn’t alone in my thoughts.
DE: Right.
AM: And apparently other people had been asked by this officer to take things in to the taxidermist. Now where would an officer get things from to take to a taxidermist? Only the same as anybody else. I know. And we were in the country yes.
DE: Yes.
AM: But I never saw any livestock there of any kind. At anyroads that’s another story altogether. But I don’t know what happened with that. Whether anything happened or not but I’ve thought to myself I wished I could get on to that roof and just have a look. See what type of aerials, if any, are still up there. And you could find out what frequency they were on then.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And anyways, that was, it’s just thoughts.
DE: So how did you hear about the message from the Germans about Skilling’s Follies?
AM: Well I’ve met people at meetings. At the reunions. And different people have said about remarks about it. And they said, ‘We know you’ve taken a parcel.’ I said, ‘Yes I have. I can’t deny that.’ I said, ‘But it looked very much, very bad for me,’ I said, ‘Taking this parcel. I don’t know what was in it.’ But they said, ‘Well you shouldn’t have taken it.’ I said, ‘Well I can say that myself now, I says, ‘But at the time it was an officer and it was just a parcel as far as I was concerned and I took it.’ But it maybe wasn’t. I don’t know. But anyroad, that’s the way it went and I heard since that they come to the conclusion that it was that place where the information was being taken to.
DE: Right.
AM: Now whether it was or not I don’t know and I can’t say. I can repeat what I’ve been told but that’s gossip.
DE: Yes. Of course. Yes. So what station was this? Where was this?
AM: Skellingthorpe.
DE: It was Skellingthorpe.
AM: Yeah. And we know when we went on raids they were waiting for us. You don’t wait for somebody on a ‘drome or in a specific area unless you have information to, to confirm what you’re thinking. That they will be coming there and they were literally waiting for us. And this happened several times and you was outnumbered with fighters. So I mean it wasn’t, it wasn’t by accident it was by somebody had got it right. That they were getting information from the station.
DE: Were these daylight operations or at night?
AM: All raids. Night and day. So we certainly got a good clobbering wherever we went. So — they always seemed to be on the ball, the Germans. As though, as though you couldn’t pull the wool over their eyes. But I don’t think that was the truth at all. I think the truth was, as was says on the ‘drome, somebody was passing information back.
DE: I see.
AM: They definitely were. And then when they sent a pilot back. Now, I’ll give you a little example. I was a witness to a crash there. Our site for VNG then was at the long runway which was east to west. At the west end of the runway and on the south side of the runway at the end — say if that’s the runway. Taking off in funnels we were all in a line around here. 61 Squadron around that side. 50 Squadron around this side and we’d be one after the other going. One 50, one 61.
DE: Yeah.
AM: One 50, one 61 ‘til we’d all taken off. And what happened was that [pause] I’m losing myself now. What happened? Oh this memory. Its —
DE: So you’re all taking off and it’s a story of when they were waiting for you.
AM: Yeah. We — oh we were parked here at this end of the runway. That’s it. I’ve got it.
DE: At the dispersal.
AM: We were parked at the exit end of the runway. So by the time they got to where we were parked, just in front of us and that the rear turret was facing the end of the runway and we was getting ready to go on the same raid.
DE: Yes.
AM: And I was doing my drill in the rear turret. Anyway, watching the aircraft take off — one of them, I thought there’s something wrong with him. He kept low. He didn’t climb like the others. The others took off and climbed.
DE: [unclear] Yeah.
AM: Up and up until they got to the height and set on the direction they were going but he didn’t. He went over Skellingthorpe village and I should imagine he very nearly hit some of the chimney tops. But he turned around and came back and when he got over the end of the runway and only just on it he dropped like a stone. And of course it was the whole bomb load went up and he went up and that was the end. There was nothing to be seen after that. And I thought oh they’ve all had that. And unbeknown to me the rear gunner, one of the ground staff saw something gleaming in the — he’d been cycling his bike somewhere. I don’t know where. And he’d seen a light shining in the hedge bottom somewhere. A ditch.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And he’d gone to this and he’d found the rear turret. It had been blasted off the ‘drome in this into this ditch. And when he looked inside the rear gunner was there but he says he was black. He was all black. Which I can understand he would be. Anyroads, I learned a few days ago that he was, he was still alive up to two years ago. And he just died two years ago.
DE: Really.
AM: So, so I’m told. If I’m telling you wrong I’ve been told wrong. But that was unfortunate. The whole event was unfortunate because, and I had to go as a witness to relate what I’d seen and it didn’t end up there. With me things don’t just go from A to B. They go from A to B to C to D to E and it’s like a kangaroo jumping along with information. And what happened was, with me, was this. That when when it was reported everybody knew about it. The man that took off number one was Skillings and I should call him Squadron Leader Skilling.
DE: Yes.
AM: Because that’s what he was and he earned that title. He didn’t get it easy. He got it. He qualified and in my opinion he should have got even higher. He was an absolute wizard. He was out of this world as a pilot. He got us out of many difficulties. And what happened was his pal was the first one off. Now, he’d taken, he was up here when he, this one here was taking off.
DE: Yeah. Yes.
AM: So he hadn’t seen this one at all. And on his way to the target he’d got serious engine trouble and landed in a field in Germany. And they’d landed quite safely and they’d all got out safe.
DE: Yes.
AM: And they were trying to set fire to their aircraft which was the procedure and Fritz come up with machine guns and said, ‘If you go any further with that you’ll all be dead.’ So they had to abandon the setting fire to the, to the aircraft. So they were taken in and they said, ‘Well, you’ll be pleased to know that all the crew are not dead on that aircraft that crashed.’ They’d not seen it. They were up there. Well away from the event happening so they didn’t know a thing about what they were on about. And they thought they were making a yarn about this other aircraft. They said, ‘But you’ll be pleased to know the rear gunner is still alive.’ Now, this is before they’d reached the target. They’d got this information. So surely that would verify that someone on the ‘drome was talking to the Germans in some way. Of course radio obviously. But they had this equipment and I mean, the building, if you look at the place where, If I could back to it, to the what do they call them again? Taxidermist is. There’s tall buildings. I think they’re three stories high. Well you’ve got a good height there above all the surrounding buildings. You’ve got a good clear run to get an aerial from up there to Germany. It would be ideal for a, for a sight to broadcast from. And of course you’d get all mixed signals from that area. From the railway. From other equipment. Bus companies. Various other places. There’d be signals of all kinds buzzing about in that area so they had a good cover.
DE: Yes.
AM: And they wouldn’t dither and dather doing. They’d have a code no doubt.
DE: Yes.
AM: And having a code they would condense their messages and make it as brief as possible. So obviously when one of them came back, was released by the Americans and it was this pilot. The Americans captured the ‘drome where he was.
DE: Yes.
AM: Not the ‘drome. The prison. Or the prison camp. Whatever it was where he was detained. And they told him, when he got back to Skellingthorpe would he tell Skilling that they were after him and that they’d soon have him. And they would have Skilling’s Follies as well. That we were the Follies.
DE: Yeah.
AM: The crew and anyway, they didn’t get us. And they nearly did once or twice but we had an event which was rather unusual. I never heard of it happening to anybody. Only us. And that was this. We were on a raid where, when the tannoy went it said, ‘Will the following nine aircrews please report to briefing room.’ Now nine aircraft. Not nine squadrons. Now usually there were twenty of 50 Squadron and twenty of 61 Squadron. ‘Would the following crew — 50 Squadron and 61 Squadron, report to the briefing room’. That was it, but with us, ‘Would the following pilots report to the briefing room.’ Skilling was one.
DE: Right.
AM: And when we got to the briefing room we thought what was this going to be about. And they says, Wing Commander Flint says, ‘We’ve a very difficult job on. We can only send nine aircraft to the target. And the target is a barge and this barge is in the Mittelland Canal. And its night time and it will be well guarded. And you’ve got to get in and sink it. It must be sunk or you must bust the banks of the canal. Whichever you do it’ll leave him stranded. Now, if this here barge gets through to where they’re hoping to get it to.’ Where ever that want it to be. I don’t know. They says that, ‘We’ve nothing to stop this tank. It’s so good. It’s the most powerful tank the Germans have ever made and if it gets through we haven’t a gun that’ll touch it and we’ve nothing otherwise will deal with it. So get it sunk and come back and tell us you’ve done it.’ So, anyroads we gets off and we goes to the target. And we, we had to start with of the nine. One malfunctioned on take off so it left eight. Enroute to the target there was a big red glow in the sky. The sky all lit up. And on our port side was two Lancasters. The far Lancaster was on fire and there was one between him and us and there was also one behind our tail. Just behind us. So that was three. Anyway, we’d not been going much further. Number two Lancaster now is on fire. So that was that. So we’d gone a bit further. Now it was our turn. The mid-upper screamed, ‘Corkscrew port. Go.’ And we go straight down and all of a sudden there was such a row above the turret and a rocket passed the top of the turret a few inches and it filled the turret with fumes as it went by. It had missed us with Johnny Meadows, our mid-upper giving the word corkscrew. He saved the day did Johnny. But it was a bad way of having to do it because it was one of those nights that’s absolutely, call it black black. It was absolutely so dark you couldn’t see a thing. We couldn’t see the ground. We couldn’t see another aircraft. And yet this Focke - Wulf 190 came head on and attacked us. And he come just above. Just scraping the top of the aircraft with his belly. And I got the guns and I thought, ‘Oh I can’t.’ You’re going to say why.
DE: Why?
AM: Because there was a Lancaster just behind us and if I’d fired at him I would have hit the Lancaster. It was just behind us. And I thought oh dear and I wondered if they’d crashed but they hadn’t. They hadn’t crashed but anyroads this Focke - Wulf come over at night time. Of all the times. I’ve never known of it before. Maybe other aircraft have had it but we’d never had an head-on attack. We’d had attacks from the side, from below and various places but never, never from in front. So that was that. And anyroads we, we had a good time of it because we was coming back from it and over Belgium the anti-aircraft unit opened up on us and that’s where they took the sheet off the side of the nose of the aircraft.
DE: Oh I see. Yeah.
AM: The full length of the nose of the aircraft was minus a sheet of aluminium about two to three feet wide.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Maybe more. I don’t know the exact measurement. But it was, I think, about the width of the this table.
DE: Did you manage to — Dougie baled out. Did you —
AM: Dougie baled out. Yes.
DE: Did you manage to make it back to England then?
AM: Yes, he did. And he came back and when he came back the skipper says to us all, ‘We’re going out. I’ve got permission. We’re going out tonight to celebrate Doug’s survival. And we were taking Dougie in to Lincoln.’ So I says, ‘Good.’ Now I’m ready and everybody’s ready and Dougie’s ready and Dougie hung back. And somehow I get the feeling he wanted to talk to me. I don’t know how I knew but I did. And Dougie hung back and I hung back and he got hold of me and he says, ‘Mac.’ I says, ‘You’re not.’ So he says, ‘What do you mean?’ I says, ‘You know what I mean. You’re going to tell me that you’re yellow.’ He says, ‘I was. I was yellow.’ He says, ‘I was the only one that bailed out.’ I says, ‘Dougie you wasn’t yellow. You carried out what you was instructed to do and did it as you was told to do it. You was on the ball. That’s the only crime you committed. You was on the ball. You got out the aircraft when you should.’ Well underneath, Dougie, the bomb aimer, is a hatch about this square.
DE: Yes.
AM: And it’s easy for him to just jettison that. I mean I would have to find out how to do it but he knew how to do it. And he zipped it out and he was straight out. Followed the instructions and he landed with his parachute in the forest. Yeah. And from there onwards he ended up as a prisoner of war to be shot for being a German spy. That was Dougie.
DE: Yeah.
AM: The New Zealander. The skipper was a New Zealander as well. Hughie Skilling.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And he was pretty well known. Whatever station we went on, ‘Hiya Skilling. That’s the bloke that taught me to fly.’ And this was, wherever we went somebody did this. Every ‘drome we went to.
DE: Wonderful.
AM: Never missed. He taught ever so many people to fly. That was him. He had a marvellous reputation and he had with us.
DE: Yes.
AM: As his crew we couldn’t have picked a better man.
DE: So what was your job in the crew?
AM: What was —?
DE: Your job. You were a rear gunner. What did, what did that entail?
AM: Well I was just in charge. I had four guns there and all I had to do was to keep the tail clear or the side or wherever my guns would face I had to patrol that area visually. And I did do. And I never stopped. I never wore glasses. I never sat down ever. Every minute of my flying was stood up. If you look at my logbook you’ll see how many hours I’ve been on trips. I’d been to Munich and back and never sat down. It was too risky I thought and so I never sat down for that reason. I thought at times it’s proved to be successful. I’ve seen aircraft and the skipper says, ‘Well keep him under view Mac until he comes into range and then see what you can do.’ We had one that followed us for quite some way. I said, ‘Skipper we’re being followed with a JU88,’ and he was on our starboard side. So I thought well I’ll let him know. I said, ‘And I don’t think he’s coming in to attack.’ He said, ‘What do you think he’s doing then?’ I said, ‘He’s finding out where we’re going to and he’s keeping us in view and if he follows us we’ll take him to the target.’ And I said, ‘He’s out of range of my guns.’ So he says, ‘Well when he comes into range give him something.’ I said, ‘Don’t worry. We’re only waiting for him to do that but he’s not. He’s a wise bod. He knows full well if he comes any nearer he’ll get a congratulation.’ But anyroads he didn’t. He just cleared off. I think he’d had enough of us. He’d followed us for a quarter of an hour at least. We did have occasions when we brushed with them but usually we were fortunate. We managed to keep out of their way so to speak.
DE: I see.
AM: Yeah. So we didn’t get any damage from fighters. We got [laughs] we got some awakenings at times when he suddenly spotted one. We wondered what he was going to do but usually they went for other aircraft. And we was fortunate.
DE: Did you open fire at any?
AM: No. No. I never, never fired one bullet. Not on active service.
DE: But you kept your eye open.
AM: I was never in a position where I could fire at one. They came near us and as soon as they saw that you were taking precautions they cleared off and went for somebody else that maybe hadn’t seen them.
DE: So did you call corkscrew and that was enough?
AM: Well yeah but, oh we did corkscrew a few times. We had to do but when you did that — well I’ll tell you what did happen with the two squadrons. They sent, the newspaper sent an article, I don’t know which newspaper it was, could they send some reporters to find out what it was like on a raid? And the squadron, this was before I was on the squadron. I’m repeating what I was told. And we were told that yes they could send some reporters and we’d fix them up. There’s two squadrons. Twenty in each squadron. There’s forty aircraft. How many are you going to send? They sent five. Well four of them went with 61 Squadron. Two in one aircraft and two in another. And one came in one of 50s aircraft. And the two that went in the 61 aircraft they didn’t come back. The one that came in 50 Squadron he came back and he’d got so many bones broken. He’d corkscrewed and he got thrown about the aircraft and he ended up in hospital. So that was [laughs] I don’t like laughing at it but it was unfortunate for them that they couldn’t have been instructed before they went in what to do in a corkscrew.
DE: So what would you have to do to —?
Well you get a firm grip on somewhere otherwise you are going to get thrown about. And if you get thrown about he’s trying to be as vicious as he can with the aircraft. You’re going to get some rough treatment and there’s only one thing to do and that’s hang on. I mean I was stood up in the turret. When we went in to corkscrew I held on to the two supports and of course I could still stand up. Even in a corkscrew. Well they wouldn’t know this.
DE: No.
AM: But I did. I wasn’t there when they did it so I mean so I couldn’t say do it because I didn’t know. I never seen them. But it was unfortunate for them what had happened. I never did find out whether the others were prisoners of war or what happened to them but certainly the one that was on our squadron I did hear about him. And as I’ve, as I just said he got so many bones broken. What they were exactly I don’t know.
DE: No.
AM: I didn’t enquire.
DE: No.
AM: So —
DE: Oh dear.
AM: But it was a vicious thing was a corkscrew and it got you out of trouble.
DE: Yeah.
AM: So that was some of the things. There was other things but —
DE: What sort of other things?
AM: Well what can I think? I’ve not given it much thought really [pause] Well yes we went to a target where it was terrible weather conditions. Really bad. And it was in a mountainous area. If I looked in the logbook I maybe could find where it was because we landed at Tangmere when we come back. We’d no petrol. We were registering empty in the tanks. But anyroad I’ll tell the story from the off.
DE: We’ve got the logbooks scanned so we can look that up later. Yeah.
AM: Well the place that I’m referring to it was a bad trip because it was ice all the way there. And lumps of ice had fallen off the aircraft. We was having a job to keep our altitude. Anyway, we gets to the target area and we goes in and we makes an orbit of the circuit. And enroute to the target, just before we reach the target, what seemed to me to be in an aircraft a few yards but it maybe was miles. There was, on the mountainside, on the same level as us, the mountain at each side of us and on the port side of us looked, on a ledge on this mountain was an area all lit up. And I says, ‘Oh that’s a listening post.’ There was a good array of aerials and that on it. I thought that’s a listening post that. I’ll bear that in mind and mention it if the opportunity crops up. Anyroads, we gets to the target, we goes in to bomb, comes out the run. ‘How many bombs did you drop Doug?’ ‘Not one. They’ve froze up.’ So, ‘Right we’ll go around again.’ So we goes around again. ‘How many bombs did you drop this time Dougie?’ ‘None. They’re all froze up.’ ‘Why? Did you have the heaters on?’ ‘The heaters have been on all the time, skipper. They’ve never been off. They’re on, and they’ve been on all the time.’ ‘And we haven’t dropped a single bomb?’ He says. ‘No. We’ve got the cookie and the five hundred pounders.’ So we goes around again. The third time. No. We haven’t dropped one. So we goes around for the fourth time and they dropped the, I don’t know how many of the thousand pounders dropped but some of them dropped. But not the cookie. That’s the four thousand pounder. So the skipper says, ‘Dougie—’ Oh I haven’t mentioned this part here — this was Dougie’s thorn. This is the thorn in Dougie’s side. I didn’t tell you this part. At briefing Wing Commander Flint said, ‘We’re getting very short of four thousand pounders. And if for any reason you don’t drop your thousand pounder — four thousand pounder, I want to know the reason why you’ve dropped it, where you’ve dropped it and how you’ve dropped it.’ He said, ‘And I want a good explanation if you’ve dropped it.’ And he said, ‘You’re in for it.’ So anyroads we comes out and the skipper says, ‘Right, Dougie. We’ll have to get rid of it somewhere.’ So Dougie says, ‘You can’t.’ So skipper says, ‘Why can’t we?’ He said, ‘Well you heard what Wing Commander Flint says. If we can’t drop any four thousand pounder we’ve to bring it home or he wants an explanation why not.’ So he said, ‘Well we can give him one.’ So Dougie said, ‘What’s that?’ So he says, ‘We won’t reach base if we carry it. We’ve been around four times Dougie,’ he said, ‘And we’re getting a bit short of petrol. As it is we’ll be lucky if we reach the French coast.’ So he says, ‘Oh we will will we?’ So he said, ‘Well, I don’t care what you say. I say drop it.’ So the skipper says, ‘Well we’ve got to drop it before we get to the coast because we call it galloping petrol down.’ So he says, ‘We’ll have a vote on it, Dougie. Mac —rear gunner. What do you say?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Mid-upper?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Wireless op?’ ‘Drop it.’ ‘Navigator? Drop it.’ ‘Flight engineer?’ ‘ Drop it.’ ‘Pilot? Drop it.’ But I think he said, ‘I think we’ve won.’
DE: Yeah.
AM: So he said, ‘Will that do Dougie?’ So he says, ‘Well I’m voting against it.’ So he said, ‘Dougie if we do,’ he says, ‘I’ll guarantee we won’t reach the French coast if we take it back.’ ‘We won’t?’ He said, ‘We’ll be lucky now if we reach the French coast.’ And as it turned out we, he dropped it on this here, this here sight which I said was the listening post and he got a bullseye on it. And they forgot one thing. They forgot to take the difference in altitude of that from dropping a bomb. It was so many thousand feet up, this.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And that should, that should have been added to the distance between us and the height they dropped the bomb from. But they didn’t do that. They forgot about it. Well the aircraft got such a smack. The skipper says, ‘Mac, are you alright in the tail?’ So I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘Thank goodness for that.’ He says, ‘Has any damage been done?’ I says, ‘Not that I know of.’ So he said, ‘Are you sure? Wireless op go and have a look down the fuselage. See if there’s any damage. I’m sure we’ve got some damage somewhere.’ But we hadn’t. We’d got no damage. So we heads for the French coast now. And I heard them talking as we were crossing The Channel there, ‘We’ll be lucky if we make the coast. We might have to ditch.’ Anyroad, we landed at Tangmere. And we got, we stayed there the night and got petrolled up and back to base but we wouldn’t have done with a cookie.
DE: No.
AM: It was a good job we got rid of it. So in the report they put down that we’d hit this here listening post. Which they did. They got a bullseye. Because they hadn’t, there wasn’t much difference, there wasn’t much difference in the height between them and us. But these are little side kicks to what made flying interesting. You did get little kicks now and again that boosted you up when you saw it happening to them and not to us.
DE: Yes.
AM: But, but then when you sat down seriously thinking oh aren’t we stupid. We’re bombing their lovely buildings that they’ve taken centuries to build. The pride and joy of Germany. We’re knocking them down.
DE: Yeah.
AM: They’re doing the same here. They’ve come to Coventry. They’ve knocked beautiful buildings down there that’s been up for centuries. And this is the thoughts that go through your mind. We must be mad to instigate such things as killing each other like we do as though it’s the right thing to do. But it’s not. It’s the wrong thing to do. But anyroad that was, that was it. There was other occasions when things happened but you can’t — I couldn’t bring them all to mind at the moment. Maybe when I’m in bed and thinking what I’ve said today. Maybe these things will come to my mind which they do when you’re not in a position to relate them.
DE: That’s always the way. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
DE: Yeah. The memory does strange things.
AM: Yeah. We had some close dos. But we could rely on the skipper. He was, he was A1. Absolutely A1. And he invited us to their home in New Zealand for a fortnight’s holiday and the wife and I went and we had a marvellous time there. And as I’ve said we went to Dougie’s.
DE: Yes.
AM: Yeah. He says, ‘I’m pleased you was our rear gunner.’ [laughs] I don’t know why but that’s what he says.
DE: That’s good.
AM: So anyroads.
DE: How many operations did you do?
AM: I don’t know. I’ve not counted. It would be about twenty eight I think. Something like that.
DE: So what happened at the end of the war in Europe?
AM: Well what happened to me was we got a direct hit at the tail end of the aircraft and I was stood, in front of me it was open and I was stood there. The next thing I knew I was laid on the floor. And I come to and I could hear on my earphones Hughie shouting through the earphones. Oh I says, ‘Was you shouting me Hughie?’ He said, ‘Yes,’ he says ‘What happened?’ ‘Oh,’ I says, ‘You know that shell that hit us?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘It pulled my intercom out.’ I said, ‘It come unplugged.’ And he didn’t believe me but I thought I’m not going to tell him I’m laid on the floor. So anyroad, I got up off the floor and felt myself and I thought I’m alright. I says, ‘Everything’s alright at the back end here Hughie, I said, ‘It was just a bit near. That’s all.’ So anyroad, when we landed he says, ‘I want to see you.’ He says, ‘I don’t believe you.’ So I says, ‘Why? What do you mean?’ He said, ‘I don’t think you’re telling me the truth.’ I said, ‘What about?’ He said, ‘You know what about. You told me you were alright, didn’t you? On the intercom.’ I said, ‘Well I am.’ So he said, ‘You’re not.’ He says, ‘If you could see your eyes you would know why.’ So I says, ‘Well what’s wrong with my eyes? He said, ‘They’re all bloodshot. Both of them. They’re in a hell of state,’ He said, ‘You’re going to the medical centre.’ ‘ No,’ I said, ‘I aren’t. I’m alright Hughie.’ He says, ‘Mac we rely too much on you to for you to go up like that. You couldn’t see properly.’ I said, ‘I can see alright.’ And I thought I could. Apparently I was in hospital for a fortnight. But anyroad they kept me in. They wouldn’t let me out.
DE: Which hospital was that?
AM: It wasn’t. It was the army hospital — Air Force hospital. So, and I says, ‘Can I go back to flying?’ And they says, ‘Oh not again.’ I says, ‘Well I don’t want to be here.’ I says, ‘I appreciate what you’re doing but I don’t want to be here. I want to be back with my crew.’ I said, ‘I’ve only two more ops to do. Or one to do. I don’t know how many,’ I says, ‘And then we’ve finished the tour.’
DE: Yes.
AM: He says —
DE: Yes. Did they not fly without you then?
AM: No. They got another gunner.
DE: Right.
AM: I don’t know who he was. But anyroad they got another gunner and he took my place for the last two or the last one. I don’t know if there was one or two we had to do. So —
DE: So were you in hospital at the end of the war in Europe then?
AM: Near enough.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Anyway, they doctored me up in there and I think I could have managed without. I think I could anyway. I think they were taking precautions but they’d no need to. I was alright.
DE: Sure.
AM: I thought I was anyway.
DE: Yeah.
They said, ‘No, you’re not. Not again.’ I said, ‘Look,’ I said, ‘Just let me go and,’ I says, ‘I’ll get back with my crew and then that’s it. You’re finished. You’ll not put up with me.’ So they wouldn’t. They said, ‘No. You’re stopping here a bit longer.’ I was there for a fortnight. Anyroad, that was that. So that was the only incident I had. And it wasn’t too bad either. I mean I didn’t know much about it [laughs] I was just laid on the floor. And, oh a young lady in there in one of those photographs. Is she, oh she’s in here. This young lady — we meet her at the meetings. In our reunions.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Where is she? That’s — have you seen them?
DE: I’ve seen those ones. Yeah.
AM: You’ve seen them. And that young lady there in the middle. Yeah. That young lady there her husband was on the same raid as us and he got killed. He got shot down and he was killed. She enquired until she got to us and ever since then she’s, she’s clung to us. She’s from Wales somewhere. And when we go to the meetings she makes a beeline for us on account of us being on the same raid as her husband.
DE: I see.
AM: I don’t know what the connection is except her husband unfortunately, he come unstuck there. We were lucky. We got through.
DE: Yeah. Do you go to a lot of reunions then?
AM: I’ve been to quite a few.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. When I can go I go.
DE: I see. And what did you do after the RAF?
AM: I went back. I was an electrician. And I were working in Hull. I were working on mine sweepers. And I worked on — I think it was called the Virago. I don’t battleships. I don’t know whether it was a destroyer or a cruiser. It was a fairly big ship. Plenty of guns on it and plenty of anti-submarine equipment. And with ASDIC and sonar on it. And I was lucky with that because I struck with a note with a man that was piped on board ship. And the man that was the captain of this ship was called Crumpelow. A navy ship this is I’m referring to.
DE: Yes.
AM: And they piped this officer aboard on ship and he says, ‘I want you all to hide out the way while we’re bringing him on board ship. We don’t want him to see any of you.’ So we says, ‘Ok fair enough.’ So I was a charge hand then and I says, ‘We’ve got to keep out of sight while this officer’s coming aboard ship.’ So they says, ‘Ok. We can manage that alright.’ So we goes down below. Down in the bilges.
DE: Yes.
AM: Gets out the way. And he came and he went. And then we were working on the ASDICs and when a few days later on I had a “Practical Wireless” in my back pocket. And I was working down below in the ASDICs with the rest of the squad and I felt someone lift this book out of my back pocket. I thought who’s taken that? And I turned around. He says, ‘It’s alright. I’m not pinching it. I’m only looking at it.’ And it was this officer that they’d piped on board the ship. So he says, ‘What are you going to make out of this?’ So I says, ‘Well I’m thinking of making that condenser analyser.’ So he says, ‘Well do you know,’ he says, ‘I don’t know if my qualifications are good enough,’ he says, ‘But what I use for doing that, nothing as complicated as what you’re going to make.’ He says, ‘This is what I use. A pair of earphones and a resistor. And I calibrate the variable resistance with the earphones across the condenser,’ he says, ‘And I have a set of condensers that I have that are calibrated and are precision ones,’ and he says, ‘I use them to work out what the ones are that I’m putting in. He says, now then, only me can use this now because my hearing and your hearing and anybody else’s is not the same. The earphones are calibrated to my hearing. Not to yours.’ He says, ‘If you make this you’ve got one of the best condenser analysers there is in the market. He says, ‘And that’s what I use on this here ASDICs and Sonar’
DE: I see. Yeah.
AM: So he says, ‘Send this for this CPO, chief petty officer will you?’ — to this bloke that was with him. So he went and he came back with this chief petty officer. He says, ‘If this man wants any gear out of the radio room —’ the pantry he called it. I think he called it a pantry, he says, ‘Give him it. But he will return it. He’s not getting given it for good he’s being loaned it. And I’m giving him, sanctioning that he can have anything he wants out of that radio stockroom and he can have the use of it providing he brings it back.’ So I thought well how good of him and he didn’t know me from Adam. And from there onwards we were the best of pals. We really got on, you know, really well. He was a smashing fellow. Really nice. I thought he was anyway. I could have made a life-long friend of him.
DE: Marvellous.
AM: So that was, that was a little bit there about that. I think they called it the Virago.
DE: Right.
AM: I might have got the name wrong because it was a long time since now.
DE: Sure.
AM: That’s what I was doing. Working on ships.
DE: Can I just take you back? A couple of things you started to talk about and then, and then we’ll press on with it.
AM: Yeah.
DE: You had a crash landing at Woodbridge.
AM: We had. We had four crash landings at Woodbridge.
DE: Did you?
AM: Yeah. We had a Lancaster got a burst tyre, with shrapnel that was. And the undercarriage was damaged and we landed with one wheel down and we didn’t know whether it would stay up or not because it had come down of its own accord. Not selected down. We landed with a Lancaster. We landed with a Stirling. And we crash landed at Juvincourt in France and we landed in a field there on New Year’s Eve after we’d been to Mittelland Canal. Yeah. I think it was the Mitteland Canal we went to and we got clobbered there but we got the two engines — the port engines on fire and the port wing on fire. We got the controls damaged. They got the intercom to the rear turret damaged. There was quite a lot of damage done and got the bits stripped off the front which was twenty foot long.
DE: Oh this was when Dougie baled out.
AM: Yeah.
DE: Right.
AM: And it was all —
DE: So you crash landed in France after that.
AM: At a place called Juvincourt. Which is just about approximately three miles. I’m estimating this as approximately three miles north of Reims. And we landed there and I had a marvellous time there myself for several reasons. First of all when we landed there an officer came up with a sten gun. It was night time and we was in the middle of a field. We said, ‘What have you brought that for?’ He said, ‘Well yesterday,’ or last night, ‘An aircraft landed and a man come out the darkness and stabbed the pilot to death.’ So he says, ‘I didn’t want him to be setting about you people so I brought the sten gun. And if he comes tonight he’ll get his, what he’s earned because,’ he said, ‘I won’t mix my words. If he comes up I’ll not give him the chance to use the knife. He’ll have had it.’ But nobody came. So that was that. Now then, I mentioned early on when I was talking about Market Harborough and about the parachute packer.
DE: Yeah.
AM: That I would probably come back to that.
DE: Oh yes.
AM: Now, when we handed our parachutes in, ‘Oh its McDonald is it?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ So I said, ‘I suppose you want something do you?’ He said, ‘Yes I do. I want my seven and six pence.’ So I said, ‘What did I tell you I did?’ He said, ‘You told me that when you flew over Germany you emptied your pockets, left it in the billet and when the airmen there knew you wasn’t coming back they was to spend it.’ I said, ‘That’s right. Well,’ I said, ‘That’s what’s happened tonight. My money’s still back in the billet. I haven’t got a penny piece on me.’ I said, ‘I’m not giving my money to the Germans. Not as a prisoner.’ I said, ‘So I’m sorry you’re out of luck again. ’So I said, ‘I’ll tell you what,’ I says, ‘When I can and if I see you again I’ll have the seven and sixpence and you’ll get it.’ And I have. I’ve three half crowns in a cupboard at home waiting for the day that I ever meet him again. And if I do or if I can contact him he’ll get his seven and sixpence. So that was it. We had a good natter him and I. You know. A sort of friendship builds up don’t it?
DE: Yeah.
AM: You can tell whether anybody’s friendly with you or whether they’re aggravated at what you say. And at first with him an immediate friendship. We struck it off together.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And anyway that was that. Now, after meeting him I went to the cookhouse and he says, ‘I wonder if any of you likes turkey?’ So I said, ‘I do.’ So he said, ‘How much did you want?’ So I said, ‘How much can we have?’ So he says, ‘You can have as much as you want,’ he said, ‘We’re on American rations here,’ he said, ‘And we’ve got that much turkey it’s going to have to be thrown away.’ And he says, ‘I don’t like throwing food away.’ So I said, ‘Well you’ve no need to do that.’ I says, ‘Can I have just turkey on my plate? No potatoes. Nothing at all but just turkey.’ ‘You can, he said, ‘With pleasure. And I’ll pile it up.’ So he did. So when the other, the rest of the crew says, ‘What’s up with you? Haven’t they got any vegetables?’ I said, ‘Yeah. If you want them.’ So they says, ‘What do you mean if you want them? Well you get vegetable normally with your turkey.’ I says, ‘Well, he asked me did I want turkey? I says yes. He says how much do you want? I says can I just have turkey? He says yes you’ll be very welcome to have turkey. And he says and he’s filled my plate up.’ And I says, ‘I think if you people asked for the same as me he’d be very pleased because he doesn’t want to throw it away.’ So they went up and they says, ‘Is he speaking the truth? And he says, ‘Why? What did he say?’ He says we could have turkey and no vegetables.’ He says, ‘Yeah you can if you want.’ ‘Oh. We’ll have just turkey then.’ So the rest of the crew had turkey. But I haven’t mentioned this so far. That when we were in our orbit we were in a dreadful state at that time. The aircraft that is. Not us. We were alright. And the tannoy, the intercom was going and this aircraft had obviously heard us talking to ground control. Heard our pilot talking to ground control. And he says. ‘I hear that there’s another aircraft in the orbit the same as us. His two port engines on fire and the wing on fire. And we’re very short on petrol.’ He says, ‘I’m afraid I daren’t go around and make a proper landing the right way around. I’m going to have to land the wrong way around.’ Well that meant we were landing and we were going up to that end here and he was coming in this way. And we ran off the runway. We’d no brakes. Off the runway, across the perimeter track, across the grass verge into a field and in the middle of the field we came to a stop. Now it was right in line with the runway where we were right underneath the funnels. He came in low down and he made an excellent landing. He actually touched down on the perimeter track with three wheels. Now, I think that’s a marvellous landing. Because usually you’re a little way down the runway and then you touch your wheels down. Not him. He made sure they were down because they were the same as us. They’d got knocked to blazes with this anti-aircraft unit in, in — not France. In Belgium. And we were to find out after it had all happened and we were discussing it. Somebody says, ‘Well we’ve captured Belgium.’ And then it suddenly dawned on us it was our own anti-aircraft fire that had clobbered us. And it wasn’t our British anti-aircraft. It was our allies anti-aircraft that had shot us down. That had shot him down and then following him as he landed another one came in that had got the same again. And apparently this anti-aircraft unit of the Americans they only used anti-aircraft shells with proximity fuses in. So instead of passing your aircraft by missing it if it was at the side of your aircraft the proximity fuse would detonate the shell and you’d get an explosion at the side of you, which for them was a good thing. It was ideal. It brought the aircraft down. Which it did. So it brought three Lancasters down within a few minutes that were passing over the unit. So we were one.
DE: Right.
AM: And this other aircraft was the next one and then of course one followed him. He got clobbered the same.
DE: Oh dear.
AM: So three Lancasters were lost there. But nobody fortunately was injured on any three of them. So that was even better still.
DE: Yeah. That’s good.
AM: So Dougie, he was going to get shot.
DE: Yeah.
AM: He was the only casualty. But anyroad, he didn’t get shot. And anyroads things, things turned out for the better.
DE: Yes.
AM: Nobody was injured and Dougie got away scot free. Thank goodness.
DE: Wonderful.
AM: He got a good frightening I suppose. Tied up and they were going to shoot him.
DE: Yeah. Your tea’s probably cold now.
AM: Oh well. Not to worry.
DE: There’s a couple of points that you made and I sort of, I let them go because you didn’t seem to want to tell me but I’d like to just ask you again.
AM: Yeah. Don’t you.
DE: That the WAAF that you met at headquarters. I’d like to know who she was.
AM: Who she was?
DE: Yeah.
AM: Well to be quite honest with you I know very little about her except that she used to come with a young lady much younger than herself. And I took it for granted it was her daughter. So I was talking to her one day and I says, ‘You know your daughter?’ ‘Well, you don’t, you’ve not seen my daughter.’ I says, ‘Well I’m not blind. You come with her every time.’ ‘That’s not my daughter.’ I said, ‘Whose daughter is it then?’ She said, ‘Well what happened was I got put out my house.’ for some reason. She didn’t say what. ‘And that lady owns property in Grantham, and she accommodated me and I’m living with her. And that’s how I know her and that’s why she comes with me to these meetings. She likes coming to these Association meetings.’ And to be quite honest with you she was very friendly with me and I says, ‘Well, your mam,’ this — ‘My mam? You’ve not met my mam.’ So I says, ‘I have. That’s your mam isn’t it?’ ‘No. She’s not my mam.’ She says, ‘I’ve taken her in because she got put out of her house.’
DE: I see.
AM: So that’s, that’s how I know. Well I don’t know her from that really. I know from the fact that her husband was on the same raid as me and he got killed.
DE: Right. I see.
AM: So that was on a raid to Munich. I went twice to Munich. And apparently on one of the raids he was on it and he got killed. And she goes to see him. It’s somewhere in France where he’s buried. And they invite her over there and she goes each year and she says they make a right fuss of her. They’re ever so good to her. So that’s her. I don’t know her name. I couldn’t tell. I’ve never known her name.
DE: I see. Ok.
AM: I usually just go up to her and talk to her like maybe you from now on. Like maybe if I see you in the town, ‘Oh now then how are you?’
DE: Yeah.
AM: But I won’t say John, Charlie, Harry, Joe or Ken or whatever. I wouldn’t because I mean I don’t know. I would say, ‘Hello.’
DE: Right. I see. Ok.
AM: So that maybe explains that one.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Now what’s the second one?
DE: It was you were sort of alluding to some secrets at RAF headquarters.
AM: Yes I was. And I shall have to be very careful that I don’t mention it.
DE: Ok.
AM: It’s very very high.
DE: I can’t, I can’t persuade you to tell me the story.
AM: No. No. But I’m in a difficult position. I could tell you as easy as wink. I thought I’d given you a clue when I said to you, when I was in London at St John’s Wood I was presented to the Queen Mother.
DE: Yes. I think I’m with you. Say no more.
[pause]
DE: I think that’s been an absolutely wonderful interview. You’ve nearly been talking for two hours.
AM: Have I?
DE: Yeah. Your son’s about right. Yeah.
AM: And I’ve only told you a fraction of what happened.
DE: Well we can do all this all again if you’d be up for it another time. Just while the tape’s still going, what do you think, what’s your opinion on the way that Bomber Command has been remembered over the last seventy years?
AM: Well they’ve not, they’ve not given us any publicity whatsoever. I mean I heard the news during the war and to me our aircraft went to Hamburg. That’s it. No mention of losses or anything. And the Germans were so efficient that I was jealous of them. I was literally jealous because the Germans were so efficient with their aircraft with how they attacked. They didn’t, they didn’t make one false move and they were always on the ball. You could never take it for granted that they wouldn’t be waiting for you because they would. They were there all the time and they come in. They never hesitated. They’re straight in. We were more than fortunate. We really were fortunate. But a lot of people, I saw a lot of people go down as you can imagine. And I felt sorry for them that went down but you couldn’t do anything about it. You couldn’t reach them. If my guns would have reached that fighter I would have given him a burst. For example one night there was a Lanc behind us. We’d bombed the target and was coming away from it. And coming away from the target this here JU88 was just behind a Lancaster going that way. And this JU88 was here and he stopped, I should say no more than thirty foot from the rear turret. And I thought what’s going on. Why doesn’t he fire? Why doesn’t the Lanc fire? And neither of them fired at each other for minutes. I thought good grief if I could persuade my skipper to drop behind I’d give him a burst and he’d be down easy. And he didn’t fire at the German. And the German didn’t fire at him. And then all of a sudden the rear gunner, I don’t know that he’d got trouble with his guns. Something had been switched off or suddenly wasn’t working. That I don’t know but then he did open up and of course the JU88 went down. But it was ages before he did.
DE: Crikey.
AM: And I couldn’t understand that at all. It seemed to me to be ridiculous.
DE: It is strange.
AM: Anyroad, if I’d, if I’d had the courage to ask my skipper let us drop back I could have easily, we was a little bit above him. Not far. He wouldn’t be a hundred foot below us. Less than that but behind us.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And just a little bit below us. Anyroads, he got him. Oh did I give a cheer when I saw him fire. And I couldn’t understand it. I’ve never seen it before or since. I’ve seen plenty of ours go down. Not many, not many of theirs. There were some went down. Yes. But not many. They weren’t, they weren’t like our Battle of Britain where the Jerries were going down most of the time. So we’re told.
DE: How did that make you feel?
AM: It was war and I accepted it as such. You got to accept all sorts of boss-eyed things in the war haven’t you? Things are not normal by any means.
DE: Yeah.
AM: And I just accepted them for what they were. Sometimes I felt sorry. Sometimes I says whoopee. Depended which side it was.
DE: I know you says you used to leave all your money behind.
AM: Leave?
DE: You used to leave your money behind.
AM: Yes I did.
DE: Were you, were you frightened? Were you reconciled to not coming back some times?
AM: Well the possibility was very strong. That you wouldn’t. And I knew this. And I thought well they’re not going to have my money. I don’t care what happens. They’re certainly not having that. And so I left it behind and left it with the blokes in the billet. They knew where it was. They never touched it. So yeah that was just one of the things. There’s a lot of funny things in a war. Many funny things. You meet people you never dreamed that you would rub shoulders with and you get things happen to you you’d never think would happen but they do. War is a funny thing. It’s a mixture of all mix and manders. Absolutely. It really is. I’ve been on a ship and I was on a ship between Ireland and Stranraer and there was a raging storm in the Irish Sea. And I was violently sick. And I went up on the deck and a wave — I got stuck between one of those —I think they call them air funnels. They’re not letting gasses out. They’re taking the air in down to the boiler room. And I got wedged between that. And it was the only thing that stopped me getting washed overboard. The wave came over the side and over me. And my great coat [laughs] and everything on me was wet through. And I thought well I don’t care if I get washed overboard. I was that fed up of being ill. I don’t care. I don’t care if I get drowned. That was it and that was the way it was. At night time by the way. Not day time. And then to end it a destroyer or a cruiser, or some, some navy ship shone his searchlight on us and then he put it off and they’d see me on the deck. Whether that put them off or not I don’t know but they put the searchlight off and we just progressed getting back to Stranraer. So, but I didn’t mention another little thing. Whilst we were at Juvincourt I went to our Lanc when we got up in the morning. I didn’t get any sleep. But the night time — oh I didn’t tell you that part. We got into bed. That’s the yarn.
DE: Right.
AM: Now I got into the bed and the bed tilted. If that’s the bed it’s there. I got in to the bed at this side.
DE: Yes.
AM: And this is what happened.
DE: It went through ninety degrees. Yeah.
AM: I’d never heard of this before but anyroad I ended up on the floor. So I got my tunic and I wedged one side of it and I thought well I’ll sleep at that side, but then my tunic crumpled up or whatever you call it and of course that side went that way [laughs] where the tunic was. So I thought I’m not messing about any more. I didn’t get any sleep at all that night. They were all having a good laugh at me being on the floor and under the bed twice. Anyway, to cut a long story short the next morning we gets up, we goes to breakfast and I says to Johnny, the mid-upper, I says, ‘Are you coming to have a look at VNG-George?’ He says, ‘Is that where you’re going?’ I says, ‘Yeah are you coming with me?’ So he said, ‘Yeah. I’ll come with you.’ We’ll have a look. See what damage has been done.’ So we went to, got on to VNG-George and we went up and oh what a mess it was inside. You’d have thought they had a gun inside the aircraft. There was holes all over the place. It was like a colander. And we went up front to where the skipper was. The dashboard was all smashed. And the seat where Hughie was there was a piece of shrapnel. Now, let’s get this right now. I’m going to say the wrong thing if I’m not careful. I know. I’ve got it. At the back of him was a sheet of armour plate like that.
DE: Yes.
AM: A half an inch armour plate behind the skipper. A half inch thick and the full width of his seat.
DE: Yeah.
AM: So he was protected from the back and just there on the seat was a piece of shrapnel. It had gone through the armour plating and were just sticking out at this side. But it hadn’t got enough force to go any further. It had finished there. And I tried to get it out and I’d not anything heavy to hit it with. I thought I’ll get that out and give it to the skipper because that’s the nearest he’s ever been to having a bit of shrapnel in him. And it would have got him at this, behind his shoulder because that’s where it was.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Where his shoulder would have been. Anyroad, we come out the aircraft and we saw the damage that was done and we saw the piece missing off the side of the starboard side of the aircraft. From the turret right back to the, where the flight engineer sits. You could see inside the aircraft all the way along. Anyroads we goes from there. I says, ‘Let’s look all the way around John. Let’s look at the ‘drome.’ Well there were debris all over the place. There was ammunition. There was guns. There was spades. There was uniforms. There was helmets. You name it, it was there. Where they’d been fighting on the ‘drome. Apparently according to our information we were told that they had only captured the ‘drome the day before we came. Before we landed there. And that there had been fighting on the ‘drome which they had. And so I said, ‘Come on let’s look around John.’ And we were walking along the perimeter track and it took several bends. And one of the bends we went around, ‘Look at that.’ ‘Well what about it? It’s only a Focke-Wulf 190.’ I says, I says, ‘I’m going on to that. I’m going to start if up if I can.’ He said, ‘Do you think you can?’ I says, ‘I don’t know. I’ll find out.’ So I climbs on to the wing. Climbs up to where the canopy was and it was perfect. There was no damage to the aircraft anywhere that I could see. I thought they’ve abandoned this in their escape from the place. I bet it’ll start up. And there’s me trying to get the canopy undone and I couldn’t find out how to get it undone. I struggled and struggled. Pulling and writhing and I couldn’t get the canopy undone. And all of a sudden, ‘Will you come down from there.’ [laughs] This officer come up, ‘That aircraft is probably booby trapped and if you’d got in it you and the aircraft would have gone up. Not just the aircraft but you and it. Come down and don’t come up again.’ So I said, ‘Ok.’ So I came down again very obediently. I thought this is where you play very gentlemanly. You don’t, you don’t say what you’re thinking because it gets you deeper water. I come away. So I said, ‘Come on John.’ We didn’t go the way he went. He went that way so we went this way. I thought the bigger the distance between us if anything else comes up he’ll be going that way and he won’t, he won’t see me. So anyroads we turns one or two corners. ‘Oh look at that.’ And it was a Heinkel 111, I said, ‘I’m definitely getting in John.’ I said, ‘Keep a look out for me, and if he comes give me a shout and I’ll lay down and keep out of sight.’ So anyroads, he didn’t see anybody coming and here’s me struggling to get this canopy open. But I couldn’t get it open and I was going to try and start that one up. But could he? No damage. No visual external damage. I thought well that might start up. Anyroad I thought good I’ll have a go at this at least if I got it started up before he comes back. I can’t hear him if he shouts up. I was dying to get this aircraft started up. But anyroads he came and oh. ‘Will you get down from there? Now. And I’m going to follow you. You’re not coming around this area any more. Off this site.’ So we had to back track to the main perimeter track area. So we goes back to the perimeter track. ‘If I catch you again you’re for it.’ He says, ‘I’ve told you twice. I’m not telling you anymore.’ So I said, ‘Ok. Come on John.’ So we went walking along the perimeter track. Well we went to look in one of the trenches and there was guns. There was ammunition. There was tins with food in. There was allsorts there. If we’d had a lorry we could have filled it and another one as well with this equipment that was laid about. I said, ‘Oh come on we’ve had enough down here wading around in the mud.’ So we come out of this here trench and we were walking along. ‘Hey. Look there, John. Can you see what it is?’ He says, ‘Yeah. It’s a tank.’ ‘No it isn’t.’ He says, ‘It’s a tank.’ I said, ‘It isn’t. I says where’s it’s guns?’ He says, ‘He hasn’t got any guns has he?’ I says, ‘Well it’s not a tank then is it?’ So he says, ‘Well what is it?’ I said, ‘It’s a radio controlled tank.’ So he says, ‘Is that what it is?’ I says, ‘That’s what it is John.’ I says, ‘I feel sure it is. Come on we’ll go and have a look.’ So we walked across this field and we got as far as that chimney from here.
DE: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. From it. From the tank. And what, I was going to climb on board it and have a look around and see what there was. And all of a sudden there was a load of blokes shouting and calling. They reckoned that we hadn’t got parents [laughs]. You silly —
DE: Yeah.
AM: ‘Do you know where you are?’ I said, ‘Yeah. We’re near this tank. Why?’ So he says, ‘It’s a radio controlled tank.’ I said, ‘We know that.’ So he says, ‘Do you know where you are?’ I says, ‘Why? We’re in a field. Why?’ They said, ‘Do you know what’s in the field?’ I says, ‘No, what?’ He says, ‘You’re in the middle of a minefield. That’s what we’re calling out.’
DE: Oh dear.
AM: So he said, ‘When you come back look to see if the ground’s been dug. With every step you take.’ So we didn’t bother to look down. We just walked off the doing. And we got on to the perimeter track and that was it.
DE: And that was alright.
AM: We didn’t get damaged in any way.
DE: Yeah. Oh dear.
AM: But that we finished there and we were walking back and they said, ‘Oh we wondered where you were. There’s a Lanc come and he’s taking us back and we couldn’t make out where you two were.’ So we had to go straight in to the Lanc and back home. So we landed at that place. What do they call it now? Near to [pause] near to [pause] near to Brigg. It’s not far from Brigg. It was where the spies used to land. I do know the name when I hear it. A double-barrelled name.
DE: Near Brigg. Elsham Wolds.
AM: No. I don’t know about that.
DE: Killingholme.
AM: It was a ‘drome where the spies used to be taken from and they took supplies from there. And nobody. The guards —
DE: Tempsford..
AM: Eh?
DE: Tempsford. .
AM: No.
DE: No. I don’t know then.
AM: Each aircraft there had a guard outside. All the Lancasters there had a guard outside.
DE: Ludford Magna.
AM: That might be it. That could be it. I’m not sure. But I think that might be it. But that’s where we landed. And the guard was outside a Lancaster and the aircraft had twenty one of us in. You know.
DE: Yeah.
AM: From three Lancs. And there were officers and they says to the guard, ‘You’re going to let us in aren’t you?’ He says, ‘No.’ He said, ‘If I let you in,’ he says I’ll get court martialled.’ We says, ‘We’re not going to tell anybody but we’re going in.’ So he says, ‘You can’t.’ ‘Well we’re going in.’ And we all went in. All the lot of us went in. And it was a bit different to ours. A little bit different. It had a bench at each side and chairs down each side. So they had transmitters at both sides and seats so that people could sit in the seats and operate the equipment. That was then. So I mean now it’ll have gone to the scrap yard by now I should think. But it was interesting. Oh there’s all different things will well up in my mind that I maybe should have told you. But there’s so much happens to you. You can’t sort of remember it all at once. And it was good. You was always being entertained so to speak. Something was always happening that was of interest. And well that’s the way it went, and I don’t know whether that’s on the tape or not but —
DE: It is.
AM: Is it?
DE: And its two hours ten minutes now we’ve been chatting. So I think I shall, I shall wind it up. Thank you very much.
AM: Ok.
DE: That’s a wonderful interview. Thank you.
AM: You want me to sign that do you?
DE: I will do. I’ll just press stop on here.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Edward Allan McDonald. Two
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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AMcDonaldEA150918
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2015-09-18
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Mittelland Canal
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Allan McDonald was born in Hull and watched Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus as a child. He worked as an apprentice electrician before joining the Air Force. He served as ground personnel in Northern Ireland until he passed the exams to become aircrew and trained as an air gunner. He recalls seeing a Me 109 and during training, his aircraft crash landed and he was soaked in petrol. He flew operations as a rear gunner with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe and recalls seeing aircraft exploding in the air, a dinghy deploying by accident and nearly hitting a WAAF, and making an emergency landing at Juvincourt after being attacked by a Fw 190 and being hit by anti-aircraft fire.
Format
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02:10:44 audio recording
50 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
bombing
crash
decoy site
forced landing
Fw 190
ground personnel
Ju 88
Lancaster
Me 109
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
perimeter track
RAF Evanton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Nutts Corner
RAF Skellingthorpe
shot down
Stirling
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/812/10794/AEllamsSD170825.1.mp3
b0ffbbb061e351d003bc492ea0b449ee
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Ellams, George
G Ellams
Description
An account of the resource
60 items. An oral history interview with George Ellams the son of Wing Commander George Ellams OBE (b. 1921), and documents and photographs concerning his fathers service. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 223 and 199 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen Ellams and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Ellams, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So, it’s Friday the 25th of August 2017 and today I’m with Steven Ellams in Manston in West Yorkshire. And we’re here to talk about Steven’s dad who was George Ellams, Bomber Command, and lots beside. So, I’m going to just stick that on the floor somewhere. That’ll do. And what I’m going to ask you Steve I know that you said your dad was born on the 16th of May 1921. So, what do you know about his early life? Where he was born. What his parents did.
SE: I did a visit to Liverpool a couple of years ago to trace his background and the family. And he was from Toxteth in Liverpool. And I’ve got his original school reports. I know he was in the Boy’s Brigade and I know that he was, on his signing up papers registered as a shop fitter.
AM: He was a shop fitter.
SE: And when I looked at that a bit closer it turns out it wasn’t quite what I thought. And the title shop fitter was more that he dressed dummies and that. So, I learned that my father was a window dresser come whatever else. Anyway, so the family, the Ellams family. It’s pronounced Ellams but Ellams people pronounce it different ways. They come from the Liverpool area and the Wirral. I’ve traced the family background. The two brothers which he had were both in the RAF at some stage and we traced that the elder brother was given the freedom of the City of Chester for being able to trace the family name back to 1066 or thereabouts. So, it’s quite a well-known ancient name. So, he being the younger of the brothers joined the RAF in 1938.
AM: Can I just wheel back a little bit?
SE: Yeah.
AM: Do you know what his parents did? What his, what his father did?
SE: Yes. His father, his father was a publican. Ran some different group of pubs in the Liverpool and particularly in the Birkenhead area. I’ve done a little bit of background on that and he was in the Merchant Navy. So, he, we’ve never been able to find exactly that part of his background particularly well but the part of the mother’s side which was extremely traumatic and something that we learned quite early on was that she committed suicide when he was fourteen. So, my father — and he found her hanging in a wood. So, we knew there was some really traumatic episode there. Now there have been other family members that we’ve traced since and there has been one of the family members has done quite an in-depth search on the rest of the family and the Ellams Printing Company have been part of that group and there are quite well documented, you know pieces in newspapers and that in the Liverpool area. And I’ve actually got the write up on his father’s death which was about 1967 I believe. So, we’ve got one or two pieces there. But the, the earlier background there was always the suggestion that his mother was Irish and his father was English but we’ve never quite been able to trace that. So, I’ve never gone back further than those bits of information.
AM: I’m trying to piece the dates together. Did you ever meet him then? Your grandfather?
SE: No. No.
AM: You didn’t.
SE: No. I never met them. Well, I certainly, obviously never met the mother. My father interestingly enough did seem to be adopted by a lady who, where she fitted in to it again we’ve got photographs of this lady but I think it was simply that she sort of took the boys under her wing when the mother disappeared. There was something there. But certainly, as far as the publican side is concerned, we’ve only got one photograph of the father in this particular pub and I have since traced that pub and that pub still exists in Birkenhead. In Wallasey. That’s where they went. And the school report and the details of that are all from the Boy’s Central School, New Brighton, Wallasey, and —
AM: So, that’s where he went.
SE: Yeah. And there’s some good information in there as to what his sort of level of education was like and he was obviously showing a little bit of technical skill at that time, I think.
AM: How old was he when he left school?
SE: I think he was about seventeen, eighteen. Something like that.
AM: So probably would have done school certificate then.
SE: Yes, he did. I think he did.
AM: He did it.
SE: Yes. I think it’s in there. Yeah. And then obviously he seemed to go straight into the RAF. Now, I believe it was his brothers —
AM: Via the window dressing.
SE: Yeah. I think it was his brothers that encouraged him to do that and certainly I haven’t been able to trace much other than his middle brother was, was a sergeant in the RAF. And the elder brother, and the one that got the Freedom of the City of Chester he ended up as the senior representative, chairman, call it what you like of the Prudential Insurance in Liverpool. So, he had quite an interesting career and he does come up in one or two searches when you google the name. And his name was John. The same as his father. So, both the senior brother and the father were both called John Ellams whereas the middle one was called Walter.
AM: Right. And then, yeah you knew that he went as a — so as a seventeen year old he joined the RAF and he went to Cranwell.
SE: Yeah. This has always been a bit of an anomaly as well because most people would know that if you went to a technical part of the RAF you would go to what was Cosford, Halton, St Athan.
AM: Yeah. Absolutely.
SE: And various other places and I always used to think it was a bit odd that he ended up at what would be the equivalent to the RAF’s senior —
AM: And that —
SE: Officer training. So, having then found loads more documentation. This was fairly recently when my mother died that we found that there was some paperwork to say that there were a group of individuals who were signed up to that college. And how or why it came about I don’t know but the list he actually kept so that he could trace some of these characters and you went as an apprentice, a craft apprentice, a technical apprentice to —
AM: To Cranwell.
SE: Cranwell. And you then went on to whatever station. And Aldergrove in Northern Ireland seems to be the station where he went immediately after that as a wireless operator. Obviously, Cranwell doesn’t do, do apprenticeships now. And of course, when I got to talk to Peter about this I said that he was always very proud of his hat band which was a particular type of colouring or squares or whatever the colouring was. Because when he was the senior training officer at RAF Cosford he used to go on about how he went to Cranwell and they were always sort of like, ‘Well, wait a minute. How could you have gone Cranwell if you weren’t a pilot?’
AM: Yeah. Why would you be?
SE: So, there were all these sort of anomalies in there. But I’ve actually got the list now of the apprentices that went to Cranwell in those years and I think Peter’s copied that now.
AM: Right. Yeah.
SE: Or I hope he has because that document must be pretty rare.
AM: It will have all been copied.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Did he ever speak about then? So, he left school with school certificate. Window dressing seems a bit —
SE: I know.
AM: Left field.
SE: I got the shock of my life when I got the documents from Innsbruck in Gloucestershire saying what his original occupation was.
AM: And you just don’t know. It might have just been the temporary job.
SE: Absolutely.
AM: Earn a little money.
SE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
AM: And but did he ever speak about actually joining the RAF and —
SE: No.
AM: Where he would have gone to sign up?
SE: No. No.
AM: So, somewhere there’s a bit missing there where he would have, he would have signed up.
SE: Yeah.
AM: They would have looked at him.
SE: Yeah.
AM: To try and decide — ok.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Which bit of the RAF then.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And somehow they’ve picked him out as being technically minded.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Which is where you then go on to find out that he became —
SE: Yeah.
AM: You know — a wireless operator.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, how did, from your, from the records that you got how long was it? You said he wasn’t at Cranwell very long and then —
SE: It seemed about a year that the sort of apprenticeship they did. It didn’t seem to be much more than that because the first major entry or tracing I could come up with was sort of ’40, ’41. So, there’s a bit of a gap between the beginning of the war and leaving Cranwell and going to Aldergrove. So, there’s this Aldergrove connection in Northern Ireland that I can’t quite piece together and then it seems to be that around that time he was obviously showing some aptitude and it was the case then that he went for flying training. Now, I do remember him talking about that and that his claim was that he could take off but he couldn’t land, and that he basically got turned down for —
AM: Right.
SE: Flying training. And this was when he was re-mustered then as a W/op AG.
AM: Right.
SE: And that’s when that logbook starts.
AM: And that happened to quite a few of them.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Where they showed the aptitude but for whatever reason they dipped out of the pilot training.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then as you say were re-mustered.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Because looking at the logbook.
SE: Yeah. It starts —
AM: At you say it’s got —
SE: With Defiants.
AM: This one starts with the Defiants.
SE: Yeah.
AM: In ’42.
SE: Absolutely.
AM: So, you’ve still got a gap there.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Where he would have had to have done some training to fly as a pilot.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Before he got to the stage —
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Where they decided he weren’t going to be one.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And then he would have had to do his, his wireless op training.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, that was the beginning of the war. So he would have trained as an air gunner as well.
SE: Yeah. And that’s where it really starts for me.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Because he, he very early on I remember I was really into Airfix model making. And I bought a model of a Defiant. And that little brass one there is a Defiant. And he used to look at that and say, ‘See this thumb and you see those scars?’ He said, ‘That’s as a result of getting my thumb caught in the trigger on a Browning machine gun that’s on those turrets.’
AM: On the Defiant.
SE: And that’s when it starts there with the log.
AM: Yeah.
SE: And I’ve traced one or two of those aircraft. I think there’s one of them still, I’m not even convinced it’s not the one that’s at the RAF Museum. But I have done a bit of work on Defiants.
AM: Right. So, what’s, looking at the logbook which starts in January ’42. So, he was at Number 2 air gunner’s, Air Gunnery School.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And as you say was on Defiants.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And, and the remarks within the logbook are about the number of rounds hit.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Fired. And how long it took and what have you. All in Defiants.
SE: Yeah. I think the, as I understand it was the turret. In other words, depending on what aircraft you were likely to be posted onto you would learn and train on a similar type of turret. And I’ve been to the museum here in York where they’ve got a Bomber Command turret exhibition and they are quite specific these turrets. And they’ve all got different names and that and I do understand that’s where that came from. So, the high likelihood is you would then be posted on to an operational squadron which would have those type of turrets.
AM: That’s right. And yet —
SE: Or that’s as I thought it was. Whether that’s true I don’t know. But to go from there to Sunderlands.
AM: Well, yeah.
SE: I thought was a bit strange. And the other first aircraft you’ll see crop up there is a thing called a Lerwick and a Lerwick was a two-engine Flying Boat that had a very poor track record.
AM: That’s it so, so —
SE: So, he went to that first which was presumably the Conversion Unit, and then finally on to Sunderlands.
AM: Even just on the first page where he’s at the Air Gunnery School he’s in the Defiants. Quite a number of the pilots that he was flying with were Polish.
SE: Yes.
AM: By the looks of the names.
SE: Yes. Yes.
AM: And when he starts off you’re looking at the number of hits — one percent, six percent, seven percent.
SE: Yes [laughs] it’s not very good is it?
AM: And then the very, well then he had a go with no drogue.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So they’re not following it around anymore.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then all of a sudden he gets thirty four percent in two hundred rounds.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then it stops and then he moves to number 4 CO Training Unit.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And that’s when as you say he ends up on the Lerwick but then latterly on the Sunderlands. So —
SE: Well, one of, one of the interesting things about, which I do remember he did talk about that because as a kid you’d get into air guns and pistols and whatever. And again because he was senior training officer at RAF Cosford we had access to all the facilities so he’d say to me, ‘Do you want to come down to the range and we’ll get that rifle of yours sorted out?’ And I do remember him saying that, ‘You may have seen in my logbook about the target shooting and the percentage hits and that.’ And I said to him, ‘How did you ever know they were your bullets that were hitting it?’ He said, ‘You painted them.’
AM: Yeah.
SE: He said, ‘You had all different coloured bullets so that whoever was hitting it you could identify then.’ So, I said, ‘Oh,’ you know. And I then asked, you know about the, the success rate, and he said, ‘Oh, I was never that good,’ he said, ‘But,’ he said, ‘You got passed out on anything that was reasonable.’
AM: And actually depending what plane they were on you talk to lots of gunners and they never actually fired a gun in anger.
SE: Probably not.
AM: They never needed to.
SE: Yeah.
AM: They knew how to take it apart.
SE: Yeah
AM: Anyway.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, back to your, your dad. And in, in March — so February to March through to April he was on the Sunderlands. Did he ever talk about why? Why did he end up on Sunderlands?
SE: No idea. That one’s always been a bit of a mystery. I think the fact is that he was showing an aptitude for the radio side and the radar side and the Sunderland was a very good platform to put lots of equipment on. And it’s obvious through the log that he was learning a lot of stuff.
AM: Yes.
SE: And finally became the squadrons signals officer and was again on various courses and bits of upgrade. Came back to the UK for, again upgrades on different radios and wirelesses. So, I think there was an element there that they were starting to see again that he was moving more —
AM: Yeah.
SE: To the technical side than he was either the flying or the ground side.
AM: Because in, in that whole period most of it is exercises with valves.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Two way, all the way, so we’re talking about radio stuff.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And there’s only one air to air gunnery. A hundred and fifty rounds fired. Nil stoppages. Everything else is about —
SE: Yeah.
AM: Wireless. The wireless side of it.
SE: There’s one entry there which I I will tell you about because I think it’s the most fascinating thing is an entry coming back to the UK from West Africa and it says specifically that they were attacked somewhere over the Bay of Biscay.
AM: Is that later on you’re talking?
SE: Yeah. They were attacked by an ME110. Now, the captain of that aircraft, it gives his name there. And I thought what’s the chances of this chap being alive still? And I then went to the Sunderland Flying Boat Association which is run by a chap who’s written many books on the subject and I contacted him and said, ‘Look, I’ve got this, what’s the chances —’ He gave me the current list of live pilots from that time. This is going back about ten years now. I rang the number. The guy was still alive. He was ninety two. And I said, ‘I’m Steve Ellams. I’m the son of what would have been Pilot Officer Ellams in those days,’ And he basically said, ‘I remember that trip,’ he said, ‘We got absolutely shot to bits. Nothing was below the water line. We landed at Calshot which is on the south coast,’ and he said, ‘Everybody got off, looked at each other and said that was a close one.’
AM: Yeah.
SE: And as I said it’s in the log there that he read. He remembered it. The pilot. Again, my father not being alive to verify any of this so I can only go by what he said.
AM: Absolutely.
SE: On that particular occasion.
AM: Because then I’m still looking at the logbook. April ‘42. Now, he’s posted.
SE: Yeah.
AM: But not on Sunderlands.
SE: Yeah. He did about eighteen months I think it was.
AM: Yeah. And I’m looking at the different pilots he flew with.
SE: The most significant is the early bit where you see he is on L5805 for about a month.
AM: He is. Yeah.
SE: And L8, I’ve checked this. I’ve got the records. L5805 disappeared in the middle of an operation in nineteen, was it ’41 or ’42?
AM: ’42.
SE: ’42. And the pilot is a, is a chap called Pybus.
AM: Pybus, yeah.
SE: And he was a New Zealander. Now, he has a memorial to his name in Auckland in New Zealand.
AM: Right.
SE: He and the whole of that crew disappeared. But you’ll note my father wasn’t on the crew that day it disappeared. Now, I believe this is where he has, or had this thing about Sunderland Flying Boats because if you look at the dates you’ll see the aircraft and the crew don’t appear for a month. Now, you’re in West Africa. Where are you? What are you doing?
AM: Yeah.
SE: Now, we know he suffered malaria all his life and we think, I’m not certain, I haven’t got his RAF medical records but I’m pretty convinced he got malaria. He didn’t go on that trip. The crew disappeared.
AM: And he was in hospital.
SE: He was still there. And I think he’s had a little bit of a sort of thing about that ever since.
AM: Right. Because as you say he was, he was in the Mediterranean by then. He joined 95 Squadron. He was posted to 95 Squadron, 14th of April ’42.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then in terms of thinking about where he went —
SE: Yeah.
AM: The significant one is that after three days of engine tests they went from Calshot to Mountbatten to Gibraltar to the Mediterranean.
SE: Yeah.
AM: To Freetown.
SE: Which is —
AM: So they were —
SE: British West Africa.
AM: Yeah. Absolutely.
SE: They operated there for most of that. Yeah.
AM: All over that area.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Escorting the Queen Mary.
SE: Yeah, they had, they had quite a chequered background but according to most of the material I’ve read on 95 they were, they were just doing fourteen hour sorties into the middle of the Atlantic. It was an extremely boring time.
AM: Yeah. Because some of the, apart from the transit ones that were getting them —
SE: Yeah.
AM: From somewhere to the somewhere else.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: They are quite short. Relatively anyway. Short flights.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And so from May ’42 he was the second wireless operator.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then from mid-May became the first.
SE: Yeah.
AM: WOM.
SE: Yeah. And the main, the main aircraft that seems to have survived right through with his time was EJ 144. Now, that aircraft was finally written off some time in ’44 after he’d left the squadron. But I’ve got pretty good records from 95 via John Evans, as I say. He’s the guy who’s done all the books on the Sunderland and he’s got a very good record of this lot. And it just seems to be that apart from a couple of crashes that they had and they’re mentioned in there where they’ve had one or two issues and I’ve got those photographs and those photographs have been published in, in John Evan’s book. And, I think in one or two other aviation books as well. So, again he never mentioned Sunderlands. He never mentioned crashes. He never mentioned this business in the middle of the Bay of Biscay with the ME 110.
AM: Yeah.
SE: And you sort of think but having visited the RAF Museum and clambered aboard the Sunderland they’ve got there and realised that this thing that you can see above your head as well was a pretty big aircraft and that you can sleep on it. You could —
AM: Oh yeah.
SE: You had quite a nice little setup on there. You’d have bacon butties.
AM: It’s a lot bigger than being inside a Lancaster?
SE: Absolutely. It’s a huge thing. And I think that they had a reasonable time. But one thing I do remember is that [pause] oh, it’s my chair. I wondered where that squeak was coming from. One thing I do I remember — when we were in Singapore we found an abandoned canoe on a beach. And he said to me, ‘We’ll have that, do it up, and we’ll call it Archimedes the Second.’ And I thought, so where’s that coming from? Not realising ‘til many, many years later that Archimedes the Second was EJ 144.
AM: Right.
SE: So, he called it after the particular Sunderland Flying Boat. And we got a close up of the hatch on EJ 144 on a, we got a photograph up on it and we pulled it in and sure enough you can see it. And according to John Evans it’s one of the very few Sunderlands that actually had a name.
AM: Right.
SE: So, somebody named it Archimedes the Second.
AM: I’m looking at carrying on at the other stuff that he was doing. And then August, September and October was spent on the ground as a squadron, as the squadron, you mentioned, squadron signals officer.
SE: Yeah. Yeah. So again going technical more and more.
AM: Yeah. You can see where it’s heading, can’t you?
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And then back to his Sunderlands.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Through December. I should know this but I don’t. Where’s Mountbatten.
SE: Mountbatten. It’s just —
AM: Gibraltar to Mountbatten.
SE: It’s just off the south coast. It’s at Calshot. It’s the, it was the RAF Sunderland Flying Boats.
AM: Right.
SE: Yeah.
AM: EJ. There we are EJ 144. So, all the way through 1943 we’re back in around Gibraltar. Back to Bathurst doing lots of escort duties.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And he describes himself as gunner signals at that point.
SE: Yeah. Yeah. And occasionally he’d be navigator as well I think.
AM: Yeah.
SE: On one or two trips. So they obviously had a grounding in most of the sort of basics and flying was obviously something that he was never going to pursue after that early knock back I suppose you’d call it.
AM: Do you know you look at it and — so into March ’43 and on Sunderland EJ 144 now with the same pilot throughout now.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, we’re now with flying officer [Calcut?]
SE: Yeah.
AM: Having had a number of different —
SE: Yeah.
AM: Pilots until then.
SE: And he went on to become the commanding officer. And I, believe it or not met the guy when we were based at RAF Brampton. So we’re talking 1968, 1969. This chap came into the officer’s mess. My father looked at him and said, ‘My God, I haven’t seen you since — ’ whenever. And he introduced him. And I thought wow there’s a Sunderland connection for the first time. And again —
AM: So, how old would you have been then?
SE: I was about seventeen. Sixteen. Seventeen.
AM: Yeah. Ok.
SE: Maybe I was a bit older. Eighteen. No. I was just about going off to university.
AM: Right.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Because I mean you look, you just look at some of the entries and think I just wish I could ask him about this one.
SE: Yeah.
AM: The ten hours fifty plus during the day. Plus two hours ten at night, anti-blockade runner patrol.
SE: You realise that, you know we do a trip from here to Hong Kong. It might be what ten, twelve hours and we think that’s heavy going. But you’ve got your drinks and you’ve got your meals whereas these guys are fourteen hours in the air.
AM: Absolutely.
SE: Out in the middle of nowhere and nowhere to go.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. There’s some. There’s a couple of fourteen hours. Twelve hours.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: See the last one on that page.
SE: Well, you think you’d go do-lally just looking at the sea all the time.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
SE: I mean, the Atlantic is the Atlantic however you play it out. And you’d think gosh if you were out over there for those numbers of hours it would be quite exciting to see a submarine or something surface.
AM: And just looking at that date. That’s March. So he was out virtually every day. Virtually every day.
SE: This is why I’ve always queried that gap in the log when that crew disappeared because you couldn’t possibly be on holiday or just sitting on the ground. So, I’m convinced that that’s when the malaria got him.
AM: And the submarine attacked one.
SE: Yes. There was one or two occasions they did actually get to do something.
AM: Yeah. Anti-submarine patrol again. Oh, see, you look at that one. So, we’re in April 1943 now. On the Sunderland that he was on for ages and ages with Flying Officer [Calcot?]
SE: Yeah.
AM: “Searching for survivors we sighted lifeboat.”
SE: Yeah.
AM: But we don’t know whether they actually found any.
SE: We know there’s lots of stories about Sunderland crews landing to pick up people. We’ve got some fantastic stuff in John Evan’s material about even a Sunderland being towed by a ship back to base. There’s some fantastic stories with Sunderlands. I mean, they were such a versatile plane. And to be able to put one down in the Atlantic and get off again must have been almost impossible with, you know the rise and fall of the waves alone.
AM: We’ve got April ’43. The port outer seized and the prop stopped.
SE: Yeah. Yeah. There’s the, I’ve got the photographs of some of the crash landings and there’s one with a wing tip gone and another one with a chunk out the tail. And John again has put together the photographs I’ve sent him with the squadron records and said this is what happened. And so I’ve been able to piece it together from that.
AM: Yeah. Because that one where the — so when the port outer engine seized and the prop stopped and then the very next day engine change.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Full engine change. Straight out again.
SE: Yeah. Absolutely.
AM: Even though there was a small oil leak.
SE: Yeah. And learning again more about Sunderlands you know that they could actually get these gantries over the wings and lift the engines off. And of course the worry, as I then learned is that if an engine seizes and the prop keeps spinning or whatever it just literally just shakes the engine apart and can do more damage if you don’t get it sorted.
AM: Well, yeah. 26th of May, convoy escort OC 5. Didn’t meet them but crashed on landing.
SE: Yeah.
AM: The port float was written off at Port Etienne.
SE: Yes. I suppose quite symbolic and I think that’s the one I’ve got the photographs of. One of those, you know, things hanging under the wings there.
AM: Yeah. I’m looking up at the model you’ve got.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And these are the floats.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Under the wings.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: So —
SE: They’re quite big. I mean, you know. They’re quite sizeable objects. They’re made in presumably lightweight metal but I’ve seen one or two in various museums.
AM: Right. I’m just flicking through the Sunderland ones now because I’m interested to see what he then moves onto. So, there’s lots of the same. I’m sure it wasn’t the same at the time but [pause] because then we get as far as August ’43 and he was posted. So, he wouldn’t have been doing operations counted in the way that they counted them in Bomber Command at the time.
SE: Correct. Correct.
AM: However, it’s clear that they were out virtually every single day.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Doing quite long flights.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, I don’t know, maybe you do. Was there a point at which they said, right you’ve done x number of hours now, that’s it? You’re off. So, so in Bomber Command it would have been, ‘That’s it. You’ve done a full tour.
SE: Yeah, looking at the way the personnel seemed to change it seemed to be based on exposure and experience. So that I’ve always taken it as read that it would be the numbers of hours that, not maybe in the air but using the equipment.
AM: Right.
SE: So, his expertise would have been building up now on radar and various forms of electronic communication and that would be the reason he was posted on. To then go on to do more training which appears to be the case before he goes back to flying again.
AM: Well, yeah. I mean following, not the usual pattern but a pattern that quite a few followed then they would have finished their tour of operations or however you described it and would become an instructor. They’d end up at an Operational Training Unit.
SE: Correct.
AM: Training.
SE: And that seems to be the case because he goes to OCU.
AM: And that’s what he’s got.
SE: With Sunderlands.
AM: Yeah. It’s number 4 COTU.
SE: Yeah.
AM: At Alness.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Where was Alness?
SE: Somewhere up in Scotland.
AM: Is it?
SE: I think it’s up Oban way. Somewhere up there.
AM: So, we’re August, September now. And straight away he’s instructing. And describing the exercises he does and who with but then another one where pupils not found but I’m fit to go solo. I’m adding a few extra bits there.
SE: Yeah.
AM: He doesn’t say I am he just says fit to go solo.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So then in to December ’43 still an instructor on Sunderlands.
SE: Yeah. So, for somebody who had so much time on Sunderlands its, it’s remarkable —
AM: Yeah.
SE: That he just never spoke about them.
AM: Yeah.
SE: I mean his nautical side he did speak about because they used to, you had a captain of a Sunderland not, not a pilot. And he used to talk about mooring up and you know there was a definite sort of leaning towards that side. Whenever we used to go out on a boat or whatever he would say, ‘Oh, you’ve got to do this. You’ve got to do that.’ So, I think he took to that side of it. But the actual Sunderland. The aircraft. The stories. All the stuff that’s in that book. Nowhere did he ever talk about it.
AM: Just, no.
SE: No. Even when I made the model he just sort of went, oh.
AM: Alright then. And now here we’re coming to January and February ‘44 and this is the first time radar’s actually mentioned by name.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: But, but he also does an air to sea rescue duty but no trace of survivors. So, there were —
SE: Well, I think what, what, again from John Evans, John Evans’ material that it appears that when you were on an OCU of some sort you were still, if you were in the air and something took place you would be sort of commandeered.
AM: Still operational.
SE: And you’d be expected to go.
AM: Yeah.
SE: And help out as it were.
AM: And by April ’44 qualified to operate and instruct pupils in Mark 3 radar equipment.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And just before that he’s done his radar instructor crew courses [pause] Which then takes us onto [pause] from Scotland.
SE: Out to the Caribbean.
AM: Out to the Caribbean.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Nassau.
SE: To be re-mustered again.
AM: Yeah.
SE: To join up with the crew. Now, I’ve got the photograph which Peter will have of the crew that they joined up with. And according to the archivist at 223 he was able to name all those characters but in one or two of the publications they’ve got the notations wrong or they haven’t got the right caption. Because, I’ve queried how come my father’s not listed on some of the photographs but he’s on them and vice versa. So, we’ve got a little bit of an anomaly with the record keeping as to which crew he was with. That’s pretty clear in the, in the documentation. But on the photographs, and apparently this is a common thing that they get a photograph from somebody. They haven’t quite got the caption right or the names are wrong or something like that.
AM: Yeah.
SE: So, he ended up on coming back from being re-mustered or crewed or whatever they did out in the Bahamas. The photograph’s there, and then came back to 223 at Oulton.
AM: Yeah. So, he goes to Nassau. To Number 111 Operational Training Unit. So, we’re coming back to going on operations again.
SE: Yeah.
AM: One, oh the transit is on a Dakota. Yeah. So, that makes sense. Off we go in a Dakota. And then he’s on Liberators.
SE: Yeah. Now, again why Liberators? I don’t know. I could see the connection between Sunderlands and Stirlings because they’re made by the same people — Shorts. So, I would have thought that you would again keep people on similar. It’s a bit like saying you’ve always been with British Leyland.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Or you’ve always been with Ford. That’s how I understand it. And so it means that you would be familiar with a lot of the equipment and the things that are on those planes. But Liberators? American. Don’t know where that would fit in to be honest.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Just presumably where they did their training and its obvious from again the way its reading that there was —
AM: Well, and if you think about when it is. I have absolutely no idea if this is relevant or not but we’re after D-Day now.
SE: Yes. I wondered. And that’s, again he never ever mentioned about, again the period of the war where I always thought well he must have been involved in D-Day. As you would anybody that was in the forces but you see there that he was well clear of that.
AM: Yeah. There’s because the gap is —
SE: Yeah.
AM: That he did his final instructor crew the 1st of May ’44.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then the next entry is the 15th of June 44. So that period —
SE: Yeah.
AM: Of getting ready for D-Day and —
SE: Yeah.
AM: D-Day.
SE: Well out of it.
AM: And then all of a sudden he’s on American bombers.
SE: Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. And again, it could be and I would like very much to get hold of his medical records from the RAF.
AM: Yeah. Could have had the malaria again.
SE: Yeah. I think again there’s been, something happened in and around that time that’s knocked him out because there are these gaps where you’ve thought well what were you doing for that period?
AM: And at such an intense period.
SE: Yes. Exactly.
AM: When they’re not going to send them all home doing nothing are they?
SE: No. Not at all. Not at all. No.
AM: Yeah.
SE: No. And then from RAF Oulton where he didn’t seem to be there long before again he’s recruited to go to another training establishment or course or whatever. And then from there he’s bounced on to North Creake. Now, being as both those squadrons are Special Operations Squadrons with 100 Group you can see that there would be a progression then to where ever you can do the job. Train at the same time. Use the expertise. Now, again I never understood what RCM meant in the logbook until somebody pointed out it was Radio Counter Measures and Radio Counter Measures being anything to do with throwing metal bits out of the aircraft to doing signal —
AM: They dropped the —
SE: Signal, yes. Or as I now understood that a lot of it was putting —
AM: Windows.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Sorry.
SE: Was it Windows? And putting out a lot of duff gen. So, in other words they were sending signals out within the main bomber formations to say we are actually something else. And it wasn’t for some considerable time did I put all that together and realise that these Stirlings were a pretty clapped out aircraft in amongst the main formations.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Doing all of this.
AM: Yeah.
SE: And they were doing it in patterns. And I’ve now managed to acquire three publications on the subject and it’s fascinating because we’ve now been able to trace the main pilot. We can see he was the guy who he was with most of that time and they did these like figure of eight patterns in the sky.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Or did a box or whatever out into the North Sea over the particular target areas. Sometimes they weren’t involved in actually bombing. They were just up there, you know messing about if that’s the right term. Whereas where you’ve got an entry that’s in red with a target then they were bombing, so —
AM: Yes.
SE: We know then that some of them were involved in actually dropping munitions and others weren’t. And again he never mentioned it. He never used to say oh we dropped all these bombs on so and so but through those publications I’ve learned a tremendous amount of what they were up to.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because he was posted. So, he was posted to 223 Squadron.
SE: Yeah.
AM: On the Liberators. And as you say by October some of it is in red now so we’re on operations. Just, “Patrol as briefed” operations.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So we don’t know what the patrol was.
SE: No.
AM: And then [pause] and we’ve got a gap again. October ’44.
SE: That’s when I think he was another signals course.
AM: Right.
SE: Going to —
AM: Oh yes. Yeah.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Quite right.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, posted for a signal leader course.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Which takes us to January ’45.
SE: Yeah.
AM: 199 Squadron, North Creake.
SE: Yeah.
AM: As you say, Stirlings.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And now we’re out over Germany.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So —
SE: Yeah.
AM: We’re out, we are within Bomber Command as support. Stuttgart. Metz. Eindhoven. Liege.
SE: Yeah. One of, one of the things that we learned as well from the archive of 199 is that according to that logbook they flew the last operational sortie.
AM: Right.
SE: And the aircraft was N-Nan. And we’ve got the photograph in the album which Peter’s got where it’s, the caption says, “Last op,” and “A dusk take off.” And I always thought that was significant. And that tallies with the operational records from that squadron to say that they were on the very last operation actively, with Stirlings at 199.
AM: Yeah. It’s just all described as bomber support. You desperately want to grab him and say, ‘Yeah. But what did you do? What did you do?
SE: I mean I don’t know whether his Morse code was sending out or whether they were doing it verbally or what they were doing. But I would assume that the, the duff gen as I call it or the disinformation would be giving wrong positions, or saying that the formations heading to — where ever.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Or I just don’t know what they were doing other than —
AM: Because for everyone else it would be radio silence.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So —
SE: Yeah. And radio counter measures. It makes you think oh they’re bouncing signals back or they’re, you know, defending something somehow. But I really just really don’t know what all that was about and I know, as I said earlier that he was fluent in Morse code. I mean he could tap out anything.
AM: And with Flight Lieutenant Lind. Did you ever —
SE: Ray Lind. We’ve got photographs of Ray Lind. He got a DFC and bar. He was quite an accomplished pilot and he went on to stay in the Air Force for a while. And there is some correspondence between him and Ray Lind so they were obviously quite good pals. But whether he’s still alive today I don’t know. He may well be because he was about a similar age. And let’s be honest if he’d have, if he’d have lived he would have been now the same age as Bill Barford. So that would take him to ninety [pause] wait a minute, ‘21 ‘til now.
AM: What would your dad be? Ninety — your dad be ninety six if he was still alive.
SE: Yeah. Yeah. Bill was, yes. Bill was ninety five, ninety six. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: So, bomber support. And that finishes then in March ’45.
SE: Yeah. Yeah. And the war ended not long after that.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And then he ends up just after the war.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Signals officer.
SE: Yeah. And then the, the real sort of career takes off where he is now re-categorized for major aircraft. That’s anything with four engines from what I could see where he became a VIP crew man. So, in other words, according to all of that — and there’s some very interesting names in that logbook. There’s people like Sir Pirie. Oh, wait a minute. What’s his name? What would have been equivalent terms today of the Minister of defence or various other VIPs and you’ll see later on in the logbook that they were flying all over world. They were flying important people. And he, having this particular category as a wireless operator, air gunner, signaller, whatever. And I’ve got, which I only really looked at today for some reason. I’ve never really paid any attention to it before but there was a little diary thing here which was in amongst a lot of his other affairs. And this is called, Aircrew Categorisation Card. Wireless operator air. Now this dates from — the very first entry is the 7th of March 1946. And it’s saying, qualified VIP on all types of service aircraft and equipment. And it basically goes on that each time there was some other aircraft or whatever then you can see that it goes on where you’ve basically got a record of you are one of the number one people now for taking VIPs around. And you’ve got, and if you look at the very back of the book there’s a, there’s a little sheet in the back cover that says — it’s almost like saying if you stop me I’m the person that you should be paying attention to because I’m the person who knows what I’m talking about. I’ve never seen that before.
AM: Pretty much. Yeah.
SE: I’ve never read it before. And I suddenly saw it today and I thought, oh wow, look at that, you know.
AM: Is — did I just see or am I [pause]
SE: And the range of aircraft that he ended up in.
AM: That’s exactly what I’m looking at now.
SE: Oh, it’s huge. It’s huge.
AM: That’s exactly what I’m looking at now.
SE: If you look at the back pages of the logbook you’ll see. It’s got — what aircraft type have I flown? That I’ve flown on. And I think it’s the last but one page in the back there. Go back. Go back further. Yeah. There.
AM: Yeah.
SE: And it’s got and then I think it goes to the actual aircraft there.
AM: Yes.
SE: And you start thinking wow that was a fair number of aircraft that you flew on there.
AM: And he did get to fly a Lancaster.
SE: On one. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Even though he never mentioned it. And when we were younger I’ve got photographs of me on the strip at Changi where a Lancaster landed that’s the very one that’s Just Jane. I’ve got a real association with Just Jane up at East Kirkby.
AM: Yeah.
SE: And I clambered aboard with him in 1965 when it came through on its way back to the UK. I climbed aboard again in the mid-70s when it was the gate guard at Scampton. And I had no idea until my wife bought me a present for, I think a fortieth, fiftieth birthday something like that to do a night flight over on Just Jane. And I was over there and I kept thinking there’s a bit of déjà vu going on here and sure enough it turns out to be the same aeroplane which I had no idea.
AM: Just shows you.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Have you actually counted up how many —
SE: No.
AM: Bomber command operations he did?
SE: No. No. Never did. I know there’s a, there’s one commendation thing in here which I’ll just show you which I thought was quite an interesting one which again is getting very friable now. This one. That one.
AM: Right.
SE: Now, that one as I say is quite a rare one. I’ve not seen one of those before and its getting quite thin on the, you know the print. But I think Peter picked up on that one.
AM: Yeah. I’m just trying to see a date on it but this was 199 Squadron.
SE: It doesn’t. I know. I couldn’t find a date on it either. I thought that’s a bit silly that.
AM: But this is for meritorious service and good airmanship.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And it’s, a full operational tour has been completed without having been involved in any accidents or ever having an unnecessary cancellation or abandonment of an operational sortie.
SE: Yeah.
AM: I’ve never seen one of those before.
SE: No. I’ve not seen that before. And that’s 199. So, again that that’s must have been the last trip or the last trips that he did.
AM: I wonder who that was signed by because it’s been approved by somebody for —
SE: Yeah.
AM: The Air Vice Marshall, Air Officer Commanding, HQ, 100 Group.
SE: Yeah.
AM: But I can’t read the actual signature.
SE: No. No. No.
AM: So, that takes us to the end of the war. So, obviously I’ve got this great big thick logbook here that goes on many years after the war.
SE: It explodes after that.
AM: So, tell me a bit about — I’ve forgotten when you said. You were born in ’52.
SE: Yeah. I was born at Ramsgate.
AM: So, but what do you remember before we come onto you. What — so what do you remember if anything about — they would have got to the end of the war.
SE: Yeah.
AM: So, there’s two pathways for people to go then. They could either stay until they’re demobbed.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Or they can stay on. And obviously your dad stayed on.
SE: Yeah.
AM: Did he ever talk about why or —
SE: No. I remember he, he, obviously there was the connection with my mother and he was based somewhere around Manston.
AM: Right.
SE: Which is on the Kent coast. Where he met my mother. And obviously she was from Ramsgate so the connection there must have probably thought well I’ll stay in that area. And he got posted to, or he was the commanding officer of a secret radar station on the south coast called Foreness.
AM: Right.
SE: Again, you can see the connection with the expertise —
AM: Yeah.
SE: In radio or radar. So, that’s about 1950/51. Now, by then my sister was born and she was born in Singapore because he spent considerable years number of the years after the war in Singapore doing all this VIP flying. So, from the time that the war ended and him doing the VIP stuff they were in Singapore for three years. And there’s a lot of —
AM: Sorry. When did your mum and dad marry?
SE: They were, they were married in 1949.
AM: Right. Ok.
SE: So, between ’49 and ’51 they were in Singapore. My sister was born there and my mother was — no it may be even earlier than that because my mother said on many occasions that when she went to Singapore she was one of the very first wives to go back to Singapore after the Japanese occupation. And they still had Japanese prisoners of war as servants, and doing jobs. And my sister was born in Changi Hospital and she was the very first English, or white person to be born in the hospital after it was re-opened. Because if you know anything about Changi and you know anything about that hospital and the things that happened at that hospital —
AM: I do. I do.
SE: We’ve got quite a good history of that and I’ve got several books on the, on the history of Changi. Now, so, so they came back from Singapore ’50, ‘51ish or whenever it was. And then he went to Foreness and Manston. He was, he was sort of seconded from Manston to Foreness. I think Manston at that time was an American Air Force base so there was a connection there. And then at Foreness he had this challenge. My mother tells me about this challenge where he said to get the respect of his underlings he would have to climb the tower. Now, it was only last year that I had a connection with Foreness, from their archive people to say that this was true and that the tower existed and they sent me a photograph of the tower. And apparently he climbed this tower singlehandedly. Well, you had to to maintain it. So, he said, ‘Well, if you’ve got to maintain it I’ll get up and have a look at it.’ And I was sat on the beach as a six month old baby with my mother with this all going on. And I’m like — oh sorry love.
Other: I have to go.
SE: We’ve got to go have we?
Other: Yeah.
SE: Ok.
[recording paused]
AM: Right. Ok.
SE: What we can do. You can obviously keep that there and I can now do you a follow up to that. I’ve got one of those. And I can do the bit that’s missing if, assuming you want the up to date stuff. I wasn’t sure whether you really wanted to go that far.
AM: Yes. Ok. So, what we’re going to do we’re going to pause the interview now.
SE: Yeah.
AM: And probably recommence at some later point when hopefully you’ll be able to tell us about your childhood.
SE: Yeah. By all means. I mean —
AM: About your dad and the RAF.
SE: Yeah. I mean —
AM: And your dad in the RAF.
SE: Yeah.
AM: But also what he talked about to you and what sort of impression that made on you as a child.
SE: Yeah. I mean the sort of thing that I like to remember is the, the coming home in the evening in uniform. He’d come home and he’d say, ‘Do you fancy going down to the bottom of the runway? Because there’s a whole load of Mosquitoes down there that are being broken up. And you can go down there with a hacksaw and a chopper and go and get some wood and you can make yourself a model out of it.’
AM: Absolutely.
SE: So, I know as a kid I was vandalising aircraft.
AM: The wooden wonder. Chopping it to bits.
SE: Yeah. No. We could certainly do that.
AM: Did he ever talk about, you know the, the thing about bombing. Well, mind you he didn’t bomb then as such. He wasn’t, he was an operator. He was —
SE: No. No. No. He never mentioned it.
AM: He was on support wasn’t he?
SE: Never mentioned it. Never mentioned it. I mean it was only, it was only just recently when I, when my mother died that this parachute bag appeared. I mean this bag as I say it’s got his, it’s got his name on it as a, as a pilot officer and it just was up in the attic for, I don’t know how long, you can see the W.
AM: Yeah.
SE: Oh. Air Ministry on there. And, as I say, and PO. Now, that must go back to Sunderland days, and this is his parachute.
AM: Pilot officer at that point so —
SE: Yeah. So, this is his official parachute bag. So, you know they must have got on board each time with these parachutes and thought one day I might have to jump out. But anyway —
AM: Yeah.
SE: But, yes if, if that’s the case Jackie we’d better get a shift on.
AM: So, we’ll leave it there.
SE: Yeah.
AM: But I’m sure there will be a second instalment to come.
SE: Yeah. I’ll just show you this little thing. They paid me through you —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Steven Ellams
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEllamsSD170825
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:53:06 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Second generation
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Steve Ellams is the son of a wireless operator who flew in a number of different aircraft. During the war he flew initially in Sunderlands overseas before being posted back to the UK. He started operational flying in Bomber Command with 199 Special Duties Squadron.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
199 Squadron
223 Squadron
95 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
Defiant
Me 110
RAF Alness
RAF Cranwell
RAF North Creake
RAF Oulton
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
Sunderland
wireless operator