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Flying Officer. William Hedley THOMAS RAFVR Service No. 152984
No 166 and No 153 Squadron Crew. Kermington, Scampton 1944-45 .
Avro Lancaster Crew
F/O G.B. (Bruce ) Potter Pilot
F/O W.H. Thomas Navigator/Bomb Aimer
F/O J.S. Askew RAAF Wop/AG
Sgt. Jack Boyle. Navigator.
Sgt. D. Smith. Mid-Upper Air Gunner
Sgt. H. J. Hambrook – Rear Air Gunner.
All survived the war and maintain occasional contact
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Title
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Flying Officer Bill Thomas' aircrew
Description
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A list of Bill Thomas' aircrew with 166 and 153 Squadron at RAF Kirmington and RAF Scampton.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Contributor
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Claire Monk
Format
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One typewritten sheet
Identifier
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MThomasWH152984-150721-02
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
Lancaster
navigator
pilot
RAF Kirmington
RAF Scampton
wireless operator
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/1215/AThomasWH150711.1.mp3
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Ok Bill.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Thank you for allowing me to come into your home and interview you. It’s a real pleasure to meet with a veteran like yourself.
WT: I’ll give you, I’ll give you the bill later on.
BB: Thank you very much. Ok. What’s your birthday date?
WT: 28th January 1922.
BB: And place of birth?
WT: Redruth in Cornwall.
BB: Redruth. And did you go to school there as well?
WT: Yes I did.
BB: And you did your school certificate and all that kind of thing.
WT: I did.
BB: Ok. When did you, did you volunteer to join the RAF or were you conscripted and then decide for aircrew?
WT: Volunteered because as I said I’ve got that thing all written out. We had, in 1938 they started a flight of the Air Defence Cadet Corp.
BB: Yeah
WT: I joined that because our headmaster was an ex-fighter pilot in the First World War. And then I left school to start work so I couldn’t carry on with the flight but I managed to find the town flight and joined them
BB: And what was your pre-war occupation?
WT: In local government.
BB: Ok.
WT: On the health department side.
BB: And what attracted you to wanting to volunteer for aircrew?
WT: I think it, it was our headmaster who was, as I say, he was a fighter pilot.
BB: The ex RAF sea pilot. Yes.
WT: Ex RAF.
BB: Yeah. Good. He encouraged you to do that.
WT: Not only do that when I, when I was working, walking down past his house, as I had to, I heard, ‘Thomas. Why haven’t you joined the ATC?’ I said, ‘Well,’ ‘It’s the school.’ ‘There’s one down the end of your road. I’ll see you tomorrow night at three.’
BB: Good. So you, you volunteered for aircrew. You obviously went for air crew selection.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they obviously graded you as, as a bomb aimer or did you go for a particular -
WT: I wanted to be a pilot.
BB: Right. And what happened with that that you couldn’t be. Were they oversubscribed or they just needed bomb aimers?
WT: No well I came out from doing the stuff. I went up to Sywell.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Tiger Moths.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Well I got twelve and a bit hours in but I never saw it
BB: And then you were scrubbed.
WT: Well I could take off. I could do everything in the air
BB: But the landing was a problem.
WT: Landing was a problem. On the little mini run, place -
BB: Yes.
WT: We had.
BB: Yes
WT: But the big one I could get in at. The chief flying instructor
BB: Right.
WT: Took me on a check and he said, ‘I’ll try my best but I don’t know what I can do,’ but he couldn’t.
BB: Anyway, so you were remustered as a bomb aimer.
WT: No. As a NavB.
BB: Oh as a Nav oh as a NavB. Ok. Right.
Other: Excuse me for just a second. Turn it off and press that to start again. Hold that down to this constant.
BB: Ok.
Other: Ok, right.
BB: So -
Other: I want to go and check on my dog.
BB: Ok. So -
Other: I’d better check on the dog in the car.
BB: Ok.
WT: Oh alright my dear.
BB: A NavB.
Do you want me to get up?
BB: A navigator bracket bomb aimer ok. Now, was that the half brevet with the B on it?
WT: No the old-
BB: Oh as the old observer. Ok.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: The flying O.
WT: That’s what I got.
BB: Right.
WT: ‘cause I went to Canada. Eventually.
BB: Oh you went, part of the old Empire Training School.
WT: I did. And I did my bomb aiming and gunnery. And then to oh I’ve forgotten what it’s called now - L’Ancienne-Lorette. And I did my navigation training there. I must have come out fairly well because I got granted a commission.
BB: Right.
WT: So the first six, we never knew which ones out of thirty two were commissioned and then I went to Prince Edward Island and we did three or four weeks special training there to go out over the sea. Navigation and all that. So -
BB: Ok.
WT: That finished.
BB: Right.
WT: Back to Moncton and that was the holding unit.
BB: Yeah.
WT: There for ages waiting to go back to England and eventually doing so. I had come over to Canada on the Queen Elizabeth.
BB: Wow.
WT: Came back on the Aquitania.
BB: Which of course had been converted to a trooper so it wasn’t very luxurious.
WT: Luxurious oh it was luxurious enough.
BB: It was enough, still luxurious.
WT: oh it was alright. And then down to the holding unit waiting to be, go somewhere. We were pushed here there and everywhere and eventually back again and told we were then going to Scotland to something, I said, ‘What is that for? Bomb aimers.
BB: Bomber aimer.
WT: So they converted us from that to bomb aiming.
BB: I see. Right. And so what time, at what date did you actually go, finish that training?
WT: Oh I can do it.
BB: Ok.
WT: Do it from here. [?]
BB: Roughly.
WT: Monckton. Harrogate. Oh back to England in November ’43.
BB: November ‘43 so -
WT: And then to Harrogate.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And then we were at Sidmouth, back to Harrogate again and eventually up to Wigtown.
BB: Oh.
WT: That was April ’44.
BB: Ok and you joined so your OTU where you crewed up. Where was that?
WT: That was down at Castle Donington in May.
BB: Castle.
WT: ’44.
BB: And was that? When my uncle was flying for 9th squadron at Bardney, an Australian pilot he did his OTU at Kinloss.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they threw them in to a big hangar and all the navs and the pilots and the air gunners and the bomb aimers were all in this big hangar and they virtually crewed up until they found their own crew.
WT: This is what we did.
BB: Good. So it seemed to have been an RAF -
WT: That was the way of doing it. Yes.
BB: Programme.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was very good because each crew kind of found the people they kind of trusted to fly with and they’d ask questions like, to the pilot particularly, ‘Were you alright on your course?’ ‘What were you?’ ‘Oh I was above average.’ ‘You’ll do.’ And it was usually the navigator that found the pilot.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And once they’d got those two, ‘oh I met a bomb aimer over there. A guy I liked.’
WT: This was the way we did it.
BB: And that was exactly the same -
WT: We did it the same way.
BB: That you did it.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Ok and so you were all taking each other on trust at that stage.
WT: Sure and then we went on from there to Prangtoft sorry, Sandtoft.
BB: Sandtoft.
WT: And then Hemswell for Lanc finishing school and then I did what, I was transferred then from there to 166 at Kirmington and 166 squadron was there and we were the 3rd flight. AB. I think it was C flight. And they -
BB: And what were they flying at the time? Lancs?
WT: Well that was Lancs.
BB: Lancs. Yeah.
WT: And what they did was they they nearly burst C flight ready and then we went back actually down to Scampton.
BB: Right.
WT: As 153.
BB: Ok.
WT: And we were the first aircraft to land at Scampton ’cause they had just put the stuff in. We were the first aircraft to land there. In A Able which was somebody else’s kite anyway.
BB: Yes.
WT: But er yeah we went along the runway the lads were all waving. He said, ‘There’s mine’
BB: Now, when my uncle was on 9 squadron in ’43 of course. This was a bit later on in the war. The pilot i.e. my uncle and his navigator flew a second observer, a second crew. They went with a regular crew on a raid.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Who were about to finish their tour so the pilot and the navigator flew on that raid as supernumerary just to see what it was like.
WT: Only one. It was only the pilot went from our -
BB: Ok. Right.
WT: ‘cause he -
BB: They still did that in that place by the time you -
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They did one trip.
BB: Yeah. As a spare bod. And -
WT: That’s right.
BB: They came back.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And then got their own crew.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Was the air, was the Lancaster you had on 153 a brand new one or was it, had it been recycled?
WT: Well -
BB: From another crew?
WT: Well it was one of the, it was one of the -
BB: One of them.
WT: In fact we didn’t get I Item until about four or five and then it was regular hours.
BB: Ok.
WT: Flying. That’s what it says up there.
BB: Yeah my uncle did much the same thing. He did, he did it seemed to be a Bomber Command practice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: That they got the pilot and the nav to fly these initial sorties.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And then they were given a gash not gash but spare Lancs or –
WT; Yeah.
BB: To fly one or two trips.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: And then their own brand shiny new Lancaster arrived from the factory and they had that for the whole of the rest of their tour. My uncle’s Lancaster was called Spirit of Russia and it finished the war with a hundred and nine ops.
WT: Did it?
BB: And so it was lucky. But anyway we’re not talking about my uncle we’re talking about.
WT: Thomas.
BB: So there you are on ops.
WT: Yeah and we -
BB: With your scratch crew. Yeah.
WT: Yes and we carried on right up until well we did one on the 3rd of February ’45. No sorry the 7th of March ’45. And on the 8th we did a grand loop.
BB: Ah.
WT: Our pilot passed out.
BB: Oh.
WT: We think it was a fit and we were on our way to Castle.
BB: Ah.
WT: And we came out and [wing co Piley?] said, ‘You’ll be flying tonight’ and we said, ‘Not [so and so] likely until we know what’s happened to the skipper.’ He said, ‘You’ll be on a charge.’ I said, ‘I’ll see you there. Sir’ and left it at that.
BB: So, what, the was pilot was
WT: He -
BB: Obviously written off.
WT: Yes he was pretty.
BB: Wrtten off.
WT: He was gone. By that time they’d taken him away. By the time we’d got gathered together and he came back, tapped me on the shoulder and said, ‘It’s alright. The spare crew are going.’ so I saw him in the mess.
BB: He didn’t give you a spare pilot to fly that night.
WT: No. Well he wanted us to fly.
BB: Fly. So you didn’t do that.
WT: We didn’t go. No. We just didn’t. It was -
BB: That was your last trip?
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: So what happened then, Bruce went into hospital and eventually they realised he wasn’t coming out. They sent us home on leave and brought us back and I can’t remember whether they gave us three weeks or anyway we came back again and we did our last three with a Canadian no an Aussie pilot who’d lost his crew and had three to do.
BB: Right. Ok that -
WT: So he did three.
BB: That was usually the way.
WT: We thought we should have done one more so what we did was twenty nine and a half ‘cause we had an abortion in the middle of it.
BB: Right. Right. Ok and I gather that rather unfairly French targets counted for half.
WT: No.
BB: At that time of the war.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: No.
BB: No.
WT: In fact the first one was Fort [Frederick Heinrich] just on the Dutch coast.
BB: Oh right. Ok.
WT: But that was a full.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They were all full.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘Cause we didn’t do very many French ones.
BB: No. Not at that stage. No.
WT: No. We were going out.
BB: No. No. Right.
WT: Including Dresden.
BB: Yes. Now what was you’re, ok we’ll get to Dresden later.
WT: Yes.
BB: ‘Cause it’s been quite controversial and everybody sees that as the bad thing that Bomber Command did. Um what what’s your opinion of that?
WT: My opinion is as I’ve said to many people we bombed Dresden because we, one, we were told to. But it turns out afterwards that Mr Churchill was given from the Russians three, three targets that needed to be hit, Dresden and two others. I don’t know which they were. And he was given to us, he gave them to Bomber Harris and said, ‘There’s the three. You do them whenever you think right.’ And we went on the Dresden -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Trip.
BB: Yeah Churchill gave them to Portal who was chief of the air staff.
WT: Yes and he -
BB: And Portal gave them to Harris.
WT: Yeah and Harris, Harris sent them.
BB: Just did what he was told basically.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah [?]
WT: But Harris said to us, you know, we didn’t, he chose them.
BB: Yes.
WT: He chose Dresden. Ten hours twenty that was.
BB: Yes it was a long trip.
WT: It was. And it was the best bonfire night I’ve ever seen.
BB: Yes it did. It was rather grand.
WT: But -
BB: As far as the crews were concerned –
WT: I found out afterwards and I’ve got the book saying -
BB: Yes.
WT: That Dresden was a target. It was full of troops. They were making very small arms stuff.
BB: Yeah.
WT: For submarines and things like that all scattered all over the place.
BB: Yeah it was a -
WT: So -
BB: Legitimate target.
WT: A legitimate target.
BB: Legitimate target. Yes. So that was Dresden and I think in the post war my own opinion and this is my own opinion and you know Churchill wanted to stand in the Conservative government. Labour were coming up and what we understand of labour it’s now called Labour it was a socialist government coming up and he wanted to back away from the actual how effective Bomber Command had been and um and more or less threw Harris to, to the wolves.
WT: And washed his hands.
BB: And washed his hands of it. But he did the same with Dowding after the Battle of Britain so there we go it says something about the great Churchill doesn’t it?
WT: No. I don’t, don’t respect him.
BB: No.
WT: Anymore.
BB: Anyway -
WT: Sorry.
BB: Enough of that.
WT: Go on.
BB: No. No. It’s ok but I saw Dresden on your bookcase and I thought I’d ask about it.
WT: I got it there.
BB: Now getting back to the crew.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And how you all trusted each other and had to rely on each other.
WT: Yeah.
BB: What, were there any, I mean were you scared?
WT: No.
BB: You weren’t scared.
WT: Never scared.
BB: Ok. Funny I’ve heard this a lot from Bomber Command crews. They weren’t, they were apprehensive but they weren’t particularly scared.
WT: No. We just went in and did it.
BB: And did it. Yeah ok. Now we’ve read a lot, or I’ve read a lot, there’s been a lot of post-war um study on LMF issues.
WT: Yes.
BB: Lack of moral fibre issues. In your time in Bomber Command did you ever come across anything of that sort?
WT: I think there was one. One night that I never found out true there was three of us three kites on a set of pads.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Or whatever you call them.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And we did a run up and then we used to come outside -
BB: Yeah.
WT: For a smoke or whatever knowing that the signal would go up, get in your kites, and there was a pilot on one of those things and I didn’t know him sat in the hedge smoking a cigarette and there was a little bit of a kafuffle and three staff cars came down and he went with them. Now, that was the bloke who had refused to go that night. When we got back everything was hushed.
BB: Was he commissioned?
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We didn’t, I don’t know what had happened to him. I didn’t know the guy.
BB: He was just posted. That was it. Gone.
WT: It was just, he was just taken off. Yeah.
BB: Yeah ok. What year would that be roughly? Roughly. Doesn’t have to be exact.
WT: I can’t remember. It was certainly in ’44.
BB: Ok.
WT: ’45 I mean.
BB: ’45.
WT: The beginning of ’45.
BB: Because, coming back to my late uncle’s crew his rear gunner um Sergeant Clegg had been a pre-war warrant officer but had been busted down to sergeant many times for doing nasty things, naughty things I should say. I won’t go into details.
WT: Right. No.
BB: But he was always in and out of Sheffield. You know what Sheffield was?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. He was always in and out of Sheffield and that’s another place that doesn’t have much publicity. It was the air crew rehabilitation centre or whatever they wanted to call it.
WT: Ahum.
BB: But I only found this out by looking at the form 500, 540.
WT: 540.
BB: Yeah and it had all the missions for my uncle and the crews and you’d see Sergeant Clegg and then you’d see three or four trips no Sergeant Clegg some other gash gunner had gone in and I asked some survivors on my late uncle’s crew what about Clegg? At first they were all very protective and then they said well actually Clegg was a bit of a lad and he got into trouble with drink and women and was always been sent to Sheffield but in in the air he was a perfect rigger just I mean you know my uncle trusted him implicitly and when he was at Sheffield my uncle felt really, really uncomfortable with this gash gunner sitting at the back who he didn’t know. But you know he got, he got through his tour unfortunately my uncle but was killed instructing.
WT: Our wireless op he was, he was an Australian and he was a silly B really and he drank like old boots so when he got in the kite he would do everything he had to do but Jack, our navigator was a great guy ‘cause he knew there was a group, a message to come. I’ve forgotten was it half hourly -
BB: Yeah.
WT: Quarter hourly.
BB: Half hourly.
WT: He’d give Digger a kick.
BB: Usually the weather and, yeah.
WT: We’d could usually hear, ‘Digger wake up you silly B.’ And he’d be, ‘Oh oh alright,’ he says and he never missed, he had everything down, he never missed a thing. He knew exactly where we were going.
BB: Yeah. That’s great. My uncle’s navigator was the old man of the crew. He was -
WT: Yeah.
BB: He was thirty two.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: He’d been a postmaster in the Isle of Man and had volunteered to be a navigator because he was very good at maths but he was the old man of the crew and the rest of the crew called him Pop. Because the average age on, the average age on my uncle’s crew was what nineteen, twenty.
WT: Ahum.
BB: My uncle himself he was twenty one when he was killed. And that’s having done thirty trips.
WT: I was, I got I was twenty one in Canada. While I was in Canada.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I got deferred service so so such a long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact I registered as I had to do.
BB: Was that because you were local government job that was deferred?
WT: No nothing to do with that at all. ‘cause they were happy.
BB: It wasn’t a reserved occupation or anything.
WT: No it wasn’t.
BB: No.
WT: It wasn’t reserved. What happened was I signed on as we had to do and I said look here’s my number. Oh yes well that’s ok. Three weeks later I got called up for the army and [noise off] that’s somebody downstairs.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Don’t take any notice of that. And I got called up for the army and I managed to get out of that with a big brigadier somebody that we well knew. He rang them up and he said silly B. He told you what was happening because they were going to come and fetch me.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So that worked out alright.
BB: Good.
WT: Because, you know it didn’t always go right.
BB: No.
WT: I was lucky.
BB: So there were, there were evidence of LMF when you were on the squadron.
WT: Just that one.
BB: Just that one.
WT: Just that I know of.
BB: Yeah. Exactly. Just that you know of. And he was commissioned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I’ve heard other stories where had it been a sergeant air crew Harris was so worried about this kind of thing that we would call it post-traumatic stress disorder.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Today um they were, they were lined up in front of the whole squadron, stripped of their chevrons.
WT: That’s right.
BB: And their brevets taken off. Which was very very harsh but it did get the message. And other aircrews I’ve spoken to they were more scared of that happening to them.
WT: That they -
BB: Then facing the Germans.
WT: So that kept them going.
BB: And I suppose that was Harris’ view. You can either be scared of me or you can be scared of them.
WT: Sure.
BB: Make your choice.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um but it now the Americans had a completely different attitude to it in the 8th air force and they were flying daylight raids.
WT: Ahum.
BB: As you know. So there was a different thing. The other commands, coastal, fighter, transport they had their, it wasn’t so prevalent.
WT: No.
BB: In those commands. But it’s, it’s, it’s an issue that is very interesting academically and the Sheffield thing. So that might be something that might be an aspect of the Bomber Command research.
WT: [?]
BB: No I’m just saying but you knew of it, it happened on your squadron and that was -
WT: That’s it.
BB: Quietly posted away.
WT: Didn’t take no notice of it.
BB: Yes, that’s right. I mean, you know, a very good friend of my father’s, a chap called Musgrave who was a pathfinder, a pre-war fitter when the heavies came in he volunteered to be a flight engineer, went to St Athan, came out with [E] joined his crew at the Heavy Conversion Unit and went on and did his thing but he did ninety three ops at the end and I said to him once, sadly he’s no longer with us but I have his log books and he said, ‘Well, you know we were dead anyway after four,’ four to five ops in that tour no statistically, statistically -
WT: I know. Yes.
BB: Dead. So let’s go.
WT: I’m going to empty that.
BB: Oh I’m sorry. Right.
WT: Are you going to switch it off or not? Whichever you want to do.
BB: No I’ll just.
WT: I’ll run.
BB: No don’t run. Take your time.
WT: No. No.
BB: Take your time.
WT: It’s only two minutes.
BB: Yeah.
[Pause]
BB: Ok.
WT: Sorry about that.
BB: No, don’t be. No, it’s fine.
WT: You can’t stop it you see.
BB: No. I know you can’t. Thank you very much.
WT: You know.
BB: So that’s great.
WT: You know.
BB: That’s great.
That’s great. Sure
BB: We’ve covered why you wanted to join, you joined, you got re-mustered from pilot to bomb aimer sorry NavB er went to Canada for your initial training.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And then came back to the Heavy Conversion Unit. Lancaster finishing school.
WT: Right.
BB: And went to the OTU and got your crew.
WT: Yes. That’s right.
BB: And you did your, you did your trip. Was it twenty nine do you remember? You told me.
WT: We did twenty nine. I always say one was a half.
BB: Ok.
WT: We got out one night and we had an engine go.
BB: A boomerang.
WT: And she wasn’t very, we weren’t very happy but we carried on for a while and then another one started to go sick so we turned -
BB: Now -
WT: So we turned and came back.
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was about -
BB: What mission, what sortie was that?
WT: That was about the 8th of February.
BB: 8th of, yeah.
WT: Politz I think it was called.
BB: 8th of February 45.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: 8th of February 45. Yeah.
WT: Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And er when we got back somebody said, ‘Why didn’t you go on?’ And he had a few rings there and I said, ‘Sir look out on the pan. There’s an aircraft out there. It’s got two good engines. One is alright I think. The other one’s rough.’ I said, ‘There’s seven of us here.’
BB: What did the flight engineer think about it? He must have made the judgement on that?
WT: No, he had -
BB: The captain.
WT: He had to shut it down. It was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I said, ‘And you’ve got the seven of us are here are ready to go again.’ I said, ‘We didn’t go over and get a VC and lose your aircraft for you.’ Cause that -
BB: What did he say to that?
WT: So he said, ‘Well forget it.’ I said, ‘just as well [stress] sir.’
BB: Station commander?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: Was that the station commander?
WT: Yeah. No. It was the er -
BB: Squadron commander?
WT: No. It was the station commander. He happened to be there, yes.
BB: Yeah. Station master as they used to call them.
WT: They usually had four rings.
BB: Yeah. Group captain. Yes.
WT: There was the AOC there. He was there. He was great ‘cause I was friendly with his WAAF lady.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I used we used very friendly just chatted and all that and had a drink and I was saying good night to her outside his house one night and suddenly he tapped me on the shoulder, he was coming in. He said, ‘Don’t keep her up all night because she’s got to get me breakfast in the morning.’ He said, ‘This isn’t a -
BB: Yeah, but they knew what was going on.
WT: He knew.
BB: They loved their aircrew. Yeah.
WT: He was happy.
BB: Now -
WT: I’ve done a whole lot screed on me.
BB: I’ll look at that later.
WT: Yeah that’s what I wanted to -
BB: One other thing I wanted to mention to you because -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber Command had a high instance of venereal disease. VD.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And it was, it was a big a big issue because crews were getting sick and having to go to Halton and all these other hospitals and Harris had a view of it that, ‘cause the chief medical officer in Bomber Command went to see him about it, right. Went to see Harris
WT: Ahum.
BB: To, you know, tell him, you know, it’s got to stop and he said, ‘If my old lags want to have a bit of fun let them have it because they could be dead tomorrow. Now get out of my office.’ He said something like that. But I mean did you, were you aware of any of that?
WT: No. No.
BB: Were there any kind of big posters?
WT: No it was -
BB: Or lectures?
WT: No. It was a good squadron as far as that was concerned. No. We had good fun. We had this -
BB: Yeah
WT: We did a lot of that.
BB: Right. But less of the other.
WT: As far as I’m concerned.
BB: Apparently it was a big problem in Bomber Command but probably in certain areas.
WT: We, we were lucky. I was lucky. I think we had a good squadron there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: They really were. I didn’t know all of them or anything.
BB: No. No, of course.
WT: I didn’t get to know them.
BB: No. No. No. You didn’t.
WT: No.
BB: And I suppose there was the usual horror story in the morning when you went in for breakfast and there were blank chairs. Guys didn’t come back.
WT: Yeah but then I mean people weren’t in because I was lucky I was in the mess lower ground floor. All I had to do was come out of my room turn left and right and there was the dining room.
BB: Right.
WT: So I was dead lucky. Well the bar well there was no bar because it was a peacetime mess.
BB: Sure.
WT: I mean we had to go down a little alleyway.
BB: Sure.
WT: And get served in the trap hatch as we called it.
BB: Right.
WT: The [corps?] was very good.
BB: Now inter relationships within the crew between commissioned and non-commissioned crew members? Any, now you flew as a crew and that was it but of course when you landed you went to your separate messes.
WT: Yes well the, Bruce and I were in -
BB: The other mess, officer’s mess.
WT: The other -
BB: Sergeant’s mess.
WT: Five were together in a house.
BB: In a house ok they were billeted in a house.
WT: One of the wartime houses they were in.
BB: Ok. Ok. Right. I’ve heard a lot of stories where they couldn’t mix formally on base so they went to the local pub and the crew got out all together.
WT: Well you couldn’t do it on base.
BB: No. I know.
WT: You couldn’t be walking -
BB: No. I know.
WT: Around chatting.
BB: No but I meant there was the officer’s mess and the sergeants mess.
WT: They couldn’t mix them up. No.
BB: So they went off base to do it. At least that’s what my uncle did.
WT: The only time we, the only time we mixed was the pre-ops meal.
Interview: Yeah.
WT: And usually that was the sergeant’s mess because it was bigger because of their numbers so we could join them there for the meal.
BB: That’s right.
WT: ‘We had our pre-op meal there altogether.
BB: Because you were one of the privileged guys in the Lancasters. PNB pilot/navigator/bombardier. They were the three main crew PNB and they were recruited -
WT: Ahum.
BB: You know as slightly more rigorously selected and recruited more rigorously than let’s say the gunners because you had the, had to have the education to do those jobs.
WT: Oh you did. Yes.
BB: And you had to have the right characteristics.
WT: Yeah.
BB: So -
WT: I had my London General School Certificate.
BB: Well that’s right. That’s right um well that was, that was good. Let’s see, course you came, I mean I’m not, the time you got into the squadron -
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was late ‘43 or early ’44?
WT: Do you know my memory.
BB: Yeah.
WT: It’s the age.
BB: It’s ok.
WT: Alright. My first op was on the 15th of October ‘44.
BB: ’44. So the war was, the war was still there. And -
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Still brutal.
WT: Oh yes.
BB: Bombers were still being lost.
WT: Yes.
BB: Right up to the last day.
WT: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: But was there any feeling of it can’t be long now or did you think it was just going to go on and on until it stopped. I mean did you have any sense that we were winning?
WT: No.
BB: And doing all that stuff?
WT: We were, as I said.
BB: D-day had finished of course.
WT: No, no, yeah it didn’t. D day, D-day, D-day was over, yes.
BB: Yes.
WT: When I was at OTU.
BB: Yeah but there was still, you know -
WT: Yes.
BB: Still the fighting.
WT: Oh yes well we were the old line.
BB: Still bombing.
WT: The line went further -
BB: Yes.
WT: And further back.
BB: Yes, that’s right.
WT: But there was still a line.
BB: Oh a lot of day -
WT: There was.
BB: Yeah. And did you go on any daylights? Because there were a lot of daylight raids coming in
WT: We did, we did the odd daylights. We did one, two, three. About three. No four. I think there were four -
BB: Four daylights and at that stage of the war was the Luftwaffe still effective or were they -.
WT: Hang on. The last one we did was in April.
BB: April.
WT: ‘45.
BB: Ok.
WT: That was at Nordhausen. Wherever that was.
BB: Nordhausen ok but the um but the Luftwaffe by that stage was essentially gone. I mean no fuel, and losses had been high.
WT: They were up in the air.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And I spotted and -
BB: Did you ever see any of the new jets? ME262 or -
WT: I was going to say because I spotted some one night when we were out and we couldn’t understand. We thought they were rockets and they seemed to be going straight up and this happened a couple of times. It was more over Holland.
BB: Oh the V2s coming off.
WT: No. It was, it was the -
BB: Oh the exhaust from the -
WT: New jets.
BB: The new jets. Oh ok.
WT: The new jets no the V2s had finished by that time.
BB: You didn’t, you didn’t
WT: But we, I reported it but didn’t know anything.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I just said I didn’t know what they were.
BB: Yeah ok.
WT: So that was up to them. I, I didn’t know what they were.
BB: No.
WT: Until after the war. I found out.
BB: Yes. Yes and the German night fighters were still around, prowling around um did you, did you at that time they had Junkers 88s and Messerschmitt’s 110s with the Schräge Musik. Upward firing guns.
WT: Yeah. That was yeah.
BB: When they started to appear crews would just see this massive explosion in the sky and -
WT: Ahum.
BB: Thought they’d been hit by flak. They hadn’t, they hadn’t realised that they were getting under the -
WT: No.
BB: The belly and er it took a long time for Bomber Command to actually tell the crews -
WT: Yeah.
BB: About it.
WT: We knew about it.
BB: You knew about it but it, it was a very effective night fighter technique and -
WT: We only, we used to see searchlights in the sky.
BB: Yes.
WT: And there was the old master one.
BB: Yes.
WT: The red one.
BB: Yes and that was the radar and if that locked on to you the radar guided one -
WT: That was radar but one of them was coming towards us and I was screaming to Bruce and he said give me an idea of timing and I said, ‘Now,’ and what we did then we went straight through it.
BB: Yeah.
WT: As quick we could and he went like this and he disappeared.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So in other words he’d he’ll find somebody else.
Instructor: Yeah he’d find somebody else and ‘cause once you’d been combed that was it.
WT: We did it twice.
BB: More or less. Did it twice.
WT: That happened twice.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Ahum.
BB: That was it to get out.
WT: We didn’t get fired at.
BB: Well it happened to my uncle once and he actually put the aircraft straight down the path of the searchlight as best he could.
WT: The front gunner.
BB: With the front gunner blazing like mad.
WT: I would that’s right.
BB: And quick get out of the way and that ‘cause they changed that but it was -
WT: No. But we were, we were lucky.
BB: The [line was still] well ok with the advance of the allies but the German night fighter force went on quite effectively until more or less the end were constrained by fuel at the end and losses.
WT: It was.
BB: And losses of course. But what would between the flak and the night fighters and collisions and all that sort of thing what would you say was the main, the main fear? Night fighters?
WT: I don’t think we had fear.
BB: No.
WT: I’m sorry if -
BB: You put it away.
WT: It sounds big headed but -
BB: No, no, no.
WT: I don’t. I don’t think.
BB: No. I’m not I’m not. Yeah.
WT: We knew we had a job to do. If we didn’t do it -
BB: Ok. I’ll put it -
WT: We were in trouble.
BB: I’ll put it I’ll put it another way.
WT: Yeah. Go on.
BB: When you had the intelligence briefing.
WT: Yeah.
BB: At the brief.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Obviously they briefed you on night fighter tactics
WT: Yeah
Instructor: And where the flak concentrations -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Were and your route was planned.
WT: Yeah.
BB: To avoid these things and you had Window ah Window.
WT: Window.
BB: Were you dropping Window at that stage as a regular thing?
WT: All the way. All the way we could.
BB: And you had Boozer giving you the electronic aid that latched on to the night fighter radar.
WT: I didn’t do anything about that.
BB: Ok. That must have been with the wireless op.
WT: Wireless op had that.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Because he had, he had a little book.
BB: Yeah. That’s right because the Germans countered that by finding the frequency and all the -
WT: That’s right.
Instructor: And all the rest of it.
WT: That’s right.
BB: Everything like that. It went back and forth I think on the -
WT: Yeah he had that on his table.
BB: Yes. Ok. Rebecca and Boozer and all this stuff.
WT: Yeah we had [?]
BB: Yeah but window was quite effective, yeah.
WT: We did that religiously.
BB: Yes.
WT: I was glad to get rid of it mind.
BB: Yes.
WT: Get in the blooming way.
BB: Now the, my uncle’s wireless operator, he was the warmest guy on the Lanc. Everybody else was cold but he was the warmest behind his little curtain.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Um so he was either too hot or too cold but usually hot.
WT: I was happy.
BB: You were alright in your -
WT: I was alright.
BB: Your place.
WT: Where I was.
Instructor: Could you, you were usually you were at the front of course.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah and I mean for take-off you weren’t there you were probably back -
WT: For take-off we had an arrangement. When we were on OTU -
BB: Yeah.
WT: They trained the, what do you call it, to take off with Bruce?
BB: Yeah.
WT: What’s the, God -
BB: Flight engineer.
WT: Flight engineer. Sorry, I’ve got amnesia.
BB: It’s alright.
WT: No the flight engineer he trained, he was trained to take off and land so -
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Fine. Instead of me being down in the nose which was a bad place to be -
BB: Yeah, Yeah.
WT: I’d be sitting on the engineer’s seat and there were two red wheels and those were the fuel.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And they said to me if I ever saw a red light come up.
BB: Scream.
WT: Do that.
BB: Turn it off.
WT: No turn them both off.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: And that’s what I did until he poked me in the back and he said, ‘I’ve finished Bob, now’ and I’d say, ‘Cheers.’ and I’d go back to my office. We did that. I came up to landing the same way.
BB: Right. Now again I’m sorry to go back again to my uncle’s crew because it’s, it’s not him we’re talking about but they were representative. His bomb aimer, every time they were approaching the target, the whole crew would get on you know well the captain would say, ‘Try and make it one run this time will you?’ ‘Cause you know, ‘Sorry I’ve got to go around again boss. You know it was like it was never did so it was -
WT: Never did one more round. We went in every time.
BB: Excellent. Excellent.
WT: ‘cause I think it was a question of where you were.
BB: Yes, I understand. In the bomber stream. Yes.
WT: You know, in the stream. But I never had to once.
BB: Because you know the Germans were great at having dummy markers and flares.
WT: Sure.
BB: And changing the, trying to get a feel for the aiming point and, you know.
WT: And the whole thing when you worked it out the whole cross wind.
BB: Yes. Yes.
WT: You could pick it up
Instructor: Yes,
WT: Ages before you
BB: Right.
WT: And I’d get Bruce to change so that we had a good direction.
BB: Right. Ok.
WT: And he was very good ‘cause he just used the pedals to to do
BB: [the rudder bar] yes that’s right to correct the [yaw] My uncle’s bomb aimer only went around I think twice on one target but it was, it was, it was an important one. Um ‘cause my uncle went to Peenemunde. He did the Peenemunde raid. Well he was lucky. He was in the first wave. The diversion raids had, there were no night fighters because -
WT: No.
BB: They had, they weren’t there.
WT: They were somewhere else.
BB: They were somewhere else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But the guys in the third wave-
WT: They copped it didn’t they?
BB: They copped it. Yeah. But of course they weren’t told what it was for.
WT: We were very, very lucky. I really think we were.
BB: I think luck had a big part to play whether you survived your tour or not
WT: I think so.
BB: And that yes as well
WT: Yes.
BB: That and a great crew and a competent crew.
WT: Well our navigator was red hot.
BB: Yeah.
WT: ‘cause one day Bruce said to him, ‘Jack, why don’t you let Bill take over?’ And before I could say anything he said, Bill you don’t mind or Bobs they used to call me. ‘Bobs you don’t mind but I’d rather be responsible myself for what’s happening.’ I said, ‘I’d rather you did.’ And he did. And he didn’t want me to help with the Gee. He did it all himself.
BB: No. Yeah. Yeah.
WT: He wanted to do it all himself. No, he did it all himself.
BB: Yeah. My uncle’s navigator too. He had all these aids.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But he liked to do it himself and used Gee as a backup you know and -
WT: You know Jack was a good navigator.
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: In fact I contacted him after the war. He was over in er, on the east, west coast somewhere and I had a couple of words with him, He got taken ill and died just like that within nine months of my knowing him.
BB: Oh dear.
WT: There’s one of our crew left still here. Harry the rear gunner. He’s down in Yorkshire.
BB: Oh right I must get his -
WT: He’s not a hundred percent.
BB: No.
WT: At the moment.
BB: No.
WT: And we have a reunion of 153 but it’s got that about there’s only about two members.
BB: No.
WT: That go. It’s all the associate members.
BB: I know.
WT: But they meet every year down in err oh down the road -
BB: Scampton oh in Yorkshire. No in -
WT: Lincoln.
BB: Lincoln. Scampton, Waddington.
WT: No. In Lincoln itself.
BB: Oh Lincoln. Ok
WT: In a pub, in a, in a hotel
BB: Yes.
WT: And go to BBMF.
BB: Yes.
WT: And BBMF -
BB: Yes
WT: Bring them in.
BB: Yeah it’s great. I’ve been there.
WT: They are very much with us.
BB: I had the very great privilege of flying in the BBMF Lancaster.
WT: Did you?
BB: Yeah I was on duty as a reservist and briefing and debriefing crews. Modern crews.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they said do you want, do you want a flight? And I said yeah. They said, ‘There’s Jacko Jackson over there.’
WT: Ah.
BB: ‘He’s the captain.’ He said, ‘Go and see Jacko.’
WT: Yeah.
BB: And he’ll fix you up and I went across and I said, I was a flying officer at the time and I said, ‘Good morning sir.’ And he said, ‘Yeah. I know about you. You’re coming with me on a one hour flip around in the Lanc.’ We were doing a test, air test of something so
WT: Ahum.
BB: It was wonderful and I told him about my uncle and all that and I went to every position except the rear gunner position.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They wouldn’t let you in there but I went mid upper gunner, I went down the bomb aimer and it was the bomb aimer’s place. It was, it was great but you get a sense of how that main spar going across could be a real hindrance if you had to get out.
WT: I’ve got some photographs I don’t know where they are now of our people in that one going over the main spar.
BB: With all the kit on?
WT: No. Well we didn’t have that. We used to throw that down over the top but there’s one of the ladies, she took over as the squadron scribe, association scribe and I still keep in touch with her and there’s one of her looking over the top and all I could see was her backside so it appeared on the thing
Instructor: Yeah.
WT: Guess who?
BB: Guess who. Because you either went out the main door at the back.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Or you went out the bomb aimers hatch at the top.
WT: Hatch.
BB: Yeah and when that, if that’s in a spin or you know it was difficult but it was difficult getting out of the Lancaster but it was quite difficult when those things -
WT: Sure.
BB: When they caught you.
WT: I say, you know, we were so lucky.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So lucky.
BB: Yeah. So did all your crew that you trained with and flew with survive the war?
WT: Yes we all survived.
BB: All survived.
WT: Together yes we all survived together and after that we were dispersed to various place
BB: Of course. Yes.
WT: I went one way, somebody went, Harry funnily enough he was a sergeant he was sent to India and he was in the post office out there somewhere and they dropped him to corporal.
BB: Yeah. That happened a lot.
WT: Terrible that was. I couldn’t understand that.
BB: Wartime temporary. Now you’re a corporal. Yes.
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: That’s right. Yeah. And err in your own case when the war finished when did you actually leave the air force? Was it ‘46 sometime or -
WT: Yeah. I think, ohI can’t remember offhand.
BB: Well just vaguely?
WT: It’s in my in -
BB: Logbook?
WT: No. It’s in my script somewhere.
BB: Oh ok. Well anyway it was most. Most were let loose by 1947.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Most.
WT: Where did I put my scribe script?
BB: Oh don’t worry about it but where
WT: Oh, here it is in my hand.
BB: What did they have you do in that time?
WT: Oh.
BB: Were you supernumerary somewhere or were you -
WT: No they wanted, wanted us to train as something and I trained as an equipment officer.
BB: Right ok so the whole surplus aircrew thing.
WT: Yes.
BB: Because of the war
WT: Yeah.
Instructor: They said you can go home, you’re a good bloke, you’re commissioned we need you blah blah blah but you got to remuster as something else.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And, and -
WT: And I was told that’s what I was going to be. I did a course for six weeks on equipment. Got sent to RAF Strubby.
BB: Oh I know where -
WT: Which had been -
BB: Strubby is in Lincolnshire.
WT: Coldest place on earth. Was shut down and it was ready to be everything taken out.
BB: Right.
WT: And I had a few bods there to do that and we had trucks coming out
BB: Taking -
WT: Getting rid of stuff and so on.
BB: That’s right
WT: And I had another guy ‘cause I was attached to some maintenance unit over on the coast and they sent a guy to help me Frank Wilkes bless him a brummy and we worked together and we both got our going off together so we, we, we went off down to London to get our -
BB: Right got your demob suit and out you went.
WT: I didn’t want a hat so he put his, he put my hat that I would have on. I took it outside and I gave it to - [laughs]
BB: So, ok. So you were demobbed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After all of that. Having gone through that having gone through all that with Bomber Command being demobbed, done your trips with all the trials and tribulations and terror of what could have happened. What did you do then?
WT: I went back to my job.
BB: You went back to your job.
WT: It was reserved. I joined the health department of the Cornwall County Council in September ‘39, no August ’39.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was there then until I joined up but my job was held for me, my, while I was only on my two bob or whatever it was a week my pay was made up.
BB: Right.
WT: But as soon as I got more that stopped and I had to go in and pay the, pay the difference
BB: And obviously you rebuilt your life.
WT: Yeah.
BB: After that and here we are and well done.
WT: My wife, my wife was -
BB: I was going to ask about that.
WT: She was -
BB: Did you meet her in the RAF?
WT: No I met her in, at work.
BB: At work.
WT: I remember it was -
BB: Post war work.
WT: Yeah. The uniform did it.
BB: Ah the uniform did it.
WT: So what I would -
BB: It still had the pull of the air crew.
WT: Well I always went up in my full uniform.
BB: Of course you did.
WT: And it was funny when we had that grand loop.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I went home on leave. I went up to see somebody and I went in see the boss ‘cause I was his favourite. He was the first boy post boy he’d ever appointed ‘cause he was new.
BB: Ah.
WT: Dr Curnow and
BB: Curnow?
WT: Curnow same as Cornwall
BB: Yeah.
WT: Curnow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: C u r n o w.
BB: Yes I had, one of my medical officers was from Cornwall. His name was Curnow.
WT: Yeah. He, he stayed there all the time. For a long, long time and he said to me, when I’d finished I went back, and there was a brr brr and his secretary said that, ‘Yes he is.’ She said, ‘He says go in.’ He said, ‘Sit down. Have you finished?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Hold your hands out.’ He said, ‘You couldn’t do that last time you were here,’ he said, ‘You had the twitch.‘
BB: I was going to come to that
WT: [?] yeah
BB: This chap Musgrave I was telling you about. The guy that did the ninety three trips. He had a permanent twitch. It was sort of –
WT: Ahum.
BB: Like that.
WT: No. No.
BB: But he had a twitch and everybody knew you know he had been
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomber command but he was very, not because he was boasting about it they just knew that he got out. He finished the war with DFC, DFM and God knows else what but he’d been a pre-war guy but he had a twitch and I asked him once where he got it. How it started. And he said he’d had a crash and er he survived. One or two guys didn’t and that affected him.
WT: That was, that was from when it started because he had said he hadn’t noticed it before.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a good chief was Doc Curnow.
BB: So
WT: I was his boy.
BB: Yeah. So these things did have a knock on, knock on affect.
WT: Sure.
BB: Now, the, and then you had all that post war thing you know getting a job, getting married, a family and all of that. Most of the Bomber Command people that I have met and indeed other wartime aircrew not just Bomber Command they never, ever talked about it for years and years. Never.
WT: I agree.
BB: And some of them really still are reticent to talk um either it’s too painful for them one way or another.
WT: I don’t know.
BB: Or it’s just that was that was a bit of my life I’ve now put it in a cupboard.
WT: That was me.
BB: And get on with life.
WT: For a long, long time.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Until eventually I joined you know the Aircrew Association and so on
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WT: Especially when I came up here.
BB: Well I mean you guys were young and you’d gone through such a lot.
WT: Ahum.
BB: And it was very hectic and life was for today.
WT: Yes.
BB: Tomorrow you didn’t know if it was going to happen.
WT: I was, I was getting, I was married.
BB: Yeah. You had responsibilities.
WT: And we had our -
BB: And other things took priority over all of that.
WT: Yes, there were.
BB: And then of course there was this post war denial about Bomber Command.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And what they did and all the rest of it. How did that make you feel? Did it make you feel angry? Did it make you feel what the hell did we do it all for?
WT: I could have killed Churchill. Easily. You know, without any argument.
BB: Because of what he did.
WT: Because of Bomber Harris.
BB: I mean they called him Butch.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because you know but he he loved his crews and -
WT: He was, he came to Scampton once and he was great.
BB: And they loved him
WT: Yeah.
BB: Despite you know sending them off every night knowing that x number of Lancaster’s wouldn’t come back or Halifaxes or whatever. But that’s how he got his name Butch, Butcher.
WT: Yes.
BB: Butcher Harris but they seemed to get on with him.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They seemed to like, you know, his manner.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And his we’re going to do this, we’re going to do that.
WT: The one person on the squadron the squadron we didn’t like was the four ringer.
BB: The group captain.
WT: The group. He was not a nice fellow at all. We didn’t like him a bit and he used to come in to get his fags so we’d push him to the top of the queue so he could get the hell out.
BB: Did he ever fly? Did he ever go off?
WT: Yes he did a few.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He did one or two.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And he was, fortunately not with us but the AOC was there. He was -
BB: Was that Cochrane? Or Saunby?
WT: I don’t know what he was called.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He was a lovely fellow.
BB: Yeah.
WT: He had his own little [?]
BB: Yeah.
WT: In fact his WAAF
BB: Driver.
WT: No.
BB: His PA.
WT: No. Looked after him.
BB: Oh right.
WT: Looked after him. I got courting with her a bit.
BB: Ahh.
WT: Nothing like, nothing
BB: Nothing like going for the top.
WT: Untoward and one night we were saying goodnight and suddenly there was this tap on my shoulder, ‘Hurry up, don’t keep her up all night. She’s got to get my breakfast in the morning.’
BB: The morning. You said, ‘Yes sir.’
WT: Now who would have said that?
BB: They knew and, they knew and they let the guys get on with it.
WT: I saw her afterwards.
BB: In that respect.
WT: And she said that he laughed his head off.
BB: Oh that’s great. That’s great.
WT: They were a good lot.
BB: And now you’ve got your grandchildren, great grandchildren.
WT: Great grandchildren.
BB: And you’re going to be giving them your logbook and one thing and another.
WT: Paul my grandson. I’ve got a grandson and a granddaughter. Paul is supposed to inherit all my stuff.
BB: Yes.
WT: Which he will do.
BB: Yes. Good.
WT: But in the meantime.
BB: I hope you’ve written that down in a will or something?
WT: I don’t. My son knows.
BB: Ok.
WT: He knows. He’s as good as gold but Paul sorry my oldest grandson, great grandson Jack is very keen on Lancasters ‘cause they live in Lancaster.
BB: Yes of course.
WT: And he knows all about that so Jack has got lots of stuff to do with Lancasters and I said I’ve got all these books I don’t know whether I ought to be getting rid of them sometime. Pete said to me, that’s my son, the other day, ‘Dad don’t do anything until August. Jack’s coming up. He’s mad on the Lancaster’s and things, he’s got stuff all over the place so, in his room.’ so there’s four Lancaster – one, two, three, four, five books.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But you know
BB: Garbett and Goulding books.
WT: Yeah I met him and one other there and he’ll have those whatever happens. What, what about the others in the bottom lot I don’t know ‘cause the top one is all Cornwall but they’re spoken for one way or another.
BB: I have four hundred such books and I do a lot of research and I write occasionally in Flypast and other magazines um and they’re just for my own research. I mean, for example you said you were 153 I went to the books oh yes but now coming back to the controversial issue of medals.
WT: Sorry.
BB: Did you have to apply for your medals or did they come through the post eventually to you?
WT: I had to apply for them.
BB: You had to apply for them. And when did you apply for them
WT: Lord knows. I can’t remember.
BB: Yeah because they ok they had a lot to get through.
WT: No. That’s not true. I, I when I was an equipment officer before while I was still under training a bit with another thing.
BB: Yeah.
WT: I was asked to go up the headquarters somewhere and I took the logbook with me and I went through about my medals then and then I said, ‘Yes but I want the Air Crew Europe.’ ‘Well you can’t have it.’ ‘Well I said I don’t want any more.’ I went to go out and they pushed me back in again and they insisted that I had to have these four.
BB: Right, so now the, I had a very, my father knew another very nice man and his name was Slim Summerville. He had been a pre-war regular but he was a wireless operator I gather on Whitleys the one’s that flew like that -
WT: Ahum.
BB: And he hated them. But then he was shot down in November 1940 in France he made a crash landing. All the crew got out, sorry Holland, all the crew got out still fly, they flew in their number ones. Odd. But anyway they were all sitting around, standing around this aircraft trying to get it to burn and they couldn’t burn it. The Germans came. November ‘40 Battle of Britain had just finished. There they were. This Luftwaffe feldwebel came to them and said, ‘look we’ve got nowhere to put you but this Dutch, this Dutch farmer will look after you, we’ll put one of our guards there promise you won’t try and escape.’ ‘We can’t do that,’ they said but, ‘Never mind you go there.’ A month they were in this farmhouse having a life, they thought this is alright. This is ok. And then things got, they were then they were sent back in to Germany and they were sent towards the east. They were part of the great march but and he finished the war all the rest of it. When he was ill he came, I went to see him and he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘Bruce I never claimed my medals because I didn’t think I’d have very many being a POW but I’d like to pass them on to my grandchild.’ So I said, ‘Well ok.’ He said, ‘I can’t give you my logbook because it was when I was taken prisoner it was all lost and whatever.’ So I had to go to the National Archive in Kew and reconstruct his logbook and I took all this stuff and I said right your entitled to the Aircrew Europe, you’ve done, you’ve done all these missions between the qualifying dates of the -
WT: Yes sure.
BB: Award. Why, they said he wasn’t entitled to it. That he was only going to get the ‘39 to ‘45 star, the defence medal and a war medal. That’s all he was going to get.
WT: Oooh there’s one -
BB: Because he was -
WT: There’s one missing there really.
BB: So -
WT: France and Germany.
BB: Yeah but he was a POW. He wasn’t there.
WT: But did he -
BB: So -
WT: But he’d been doing work.
BB: Yeah but he was captured in 1940. So anyway so I went back and I said no you did x number of missions on the Whitleys you’re entitled to the Air Crew Europe so he said, ‘Well you write. I’ll give you permission and you write.’ So I wrote back to them first to air historical branch then to RAF records and they sent, they said, ‘Yes you’re right.’ So they reissued it. But with, but with the Air Crew Europe and I had them mounted for him and I took them to the hospital to see him in hospital and I pinned them to his pillow and he died three hours later. But he was so happy -
WT: Lovely.
BB: To have got them.
WT: Of course he was.
BB: Yeah. And he said -
WT: I’ve got mine here somewhere.
BB: All the rest was rubbish but Air Crew Europe’s the one so I am going to take your fight up.
WT: No.
BB: If I can do it for him, I can do it for you.
WT: Oh, there’s no point.
BB: Yes there is.
WT: I shouldn’t bother.
BB: Your grandchildren need it. I understand how you feel but if you’re entitled to it why don’t you take it?
WT: I’ve got them somewhere. I thought I had them there.
BB: Let’s have a look. Oh there they are. Right.
WT: They’re a replacement ‘cause I lost mine.
BB: Did you?
WT: And I lost the -
BB: What happened?
WT: Hmmn?
BB: What happened?
WT: I don’t know it was -
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: It was in a move.
BB: They were all issued unnamed.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now you see if I get you the Air Crew Europe. Right. Just say, let’s just say no this annoys me with the the whole medal thing you did all of that. Now I know you’re very proud and, and, and you don’t particularly want it but you earned it and this parsimonious government took their bloody time in giving you the Bomber Command clasp which I, did you ever claim it?
WT: No.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes I got that.
BB: Right.
WT: Yes.
BB: You need to sew that on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Now, if I get you the Air Crew Europe if by chance we’re successful they’ll probably give you the Air Crew Europe with the France and Germany clasp.
WT: Ahum.
BB: ‘cause you couldn’t have both.
WT: Ahum.
BB: So you have to give that one back.
WT: I think the other one’s still there ‘cause I always said I can’t sew so
BB: So what I’m saying is they’ll probably take that one probably ask you to return that one.
WT: I’m not fussed about it you know.
BB: I’m just going through the procedure.
WT: I know.
BB: And um they that’s what they would do. Um but it is such a prestigious, it was only it was the only thing of the stars that I’ve talked to with the guys before that meant anything was the Air Crew, Air Crew Europe whether your coastal, bomber or whatever -
WT: Yes. Exactly.
BB: It was. Because they didn’t get a medal. That was only medal they actually got that was you know air force.
WT: I got mine. Those are replacements.
BB: Yes.
WT: Because -
BB: Exactly I’ll take a photo of those later.
WT: In transferring -
BB: Well -
WT: Something got lost and we never found them. I didn’t, I didn’t -
BB: Let me put it this way let me see what I can do and if I can do it you’ll take it. Right? You’ll take it if I can get it for you.
WT: Alright.
BB: Fine. Good.
WT: You’ve won.
BB: I feel very strongly about that ’cause you know medals are very emotive things even today.
WT: I won’t argue with you.
BB: No. Good. Ok well I’m going to stop the interview now. I think we’ve covered all the ground. Is there anything else you’d like to say that I may have forgotten?
WT: No.
BB: To ask?
WT: [If you]
BB: Are these your target pictures?
WT: Target pictures.
BB: Yeah.
WT: We were allowed to have those as the crew, the crew -
BB: Now -
WT: Took some as well.
BB: The other thing that used to get people a bit jumpy, ‘Have you got the flash skip? I’ve got to go around again.’ And, ‘Oh go on then.’
WT: No.
BB: Because a lot of crews were really ‘cause that was flying straight and level for a bit of a time to get that flash picture and if you missed it the first time you had to go back and at debriefing as you know once they processed the film -
WT: [?] that’s right.
BB: You were kind of ticked in the box that it was ok.
WT: The problem was the bottom of those it was -
BB: Yeah.
WT: A job to read
BB: Yeah.
WT: Very difficult to read
BB: It is.
WT: All the stuff.
BB: It is but -
WT: But the one there the first one Fort [Frederick Heindricks].
BB: Yeah.
WT: That was an aiming point.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So I was told.
BB: Right.
WT: You could see the smoke coming away.
BB: How, we hear a lot about the pathfinders and the marking and all these different marking techniques. Were they, were they good? I mean were they -
WT: They were good as far as we were concerned. We would come up and every now and again they would say please you know bomb on so and so -
BB: Yeah they had the master bomber saying forget that that’s a spoof yeah go to -
WT: That’s right.
BB: Bomb on the greens.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Bomb on the greens. That kind of thing.
WT: Yeah. We had that.
BB: Yeah and because so -
WT: And that, that’s they’re all the same
BB: Oh ground zero.
WT: That’s, no that that’s Dresden.
BB: That’s what I’m saying ground zero at Dresden
WT: I wouldn’t know. With, you can see the modern building.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And the one that’s been destroyed.
BB: Yes.
WT: A friend of mine he lives here in Morpeth and they went over to Dresden and he came back he said, ‘Bill I thought I’d take a photograph. This is what you did you B.’
BB: Well yeah tough it was a legitimate target.
WT: Oh yeah as far as I was concerned it was.
BB: Thank you very much. They’re very interesting.
WT: Yes, I, those are, you know, to me, the crew had some you know.
BB: Yeah.
WT: So -
BB: My uncle had some and they used to put them in their logbook.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because the pilot’s logbooks were different as you know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: They were slightly bigger.
WT: Yeah well they were. That’s why mine is a bit of a mess and just written on. You know, scrolled
BB: I’ll have a look at that later. So I’m going to stop the interview now. Are you happy with that?
WT: Yes you -
BB: Ok.
WT: I don’t know if you saw those. That’s my doings. That’s, that’s how I got to know you.
BB: That’s all the stuff.
WT: And that was the newsletter. Yes.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And that’s, yeah, that’s ok.
BB: And there’s your medals back.
WT: Oh there’s, ok.
BB: Give those back to you there.
Yeah oh don’t worry about that. Oh yes that’s the Bomber Command clasp in there.
BB: Oh yes well let’s have a look, you’ve got to sew that on haven’t you?
WT: Well yes I said my daughter and grand daughter.
BB: Well why don’t you. Is it still in it’s envelope? Let me just take a picture of that ‘cause that’s you. That’s-
WT: You can undo that clip better than I can.
BB: That’s very nice.
WT: That’s what it should be.
BB: About bloody time too.
WT: I think -
BB: I was -
WT: I, I hated the thing actually it should have been a blooming thing like the other people had.
BB: Yeah. I was I was privileged in being selected to be an usher at the Bomber Command memorial opening in London.
WT: Lovely.
BB: And I was in my squadron leader stuff and all my own medals on and it was great and I was given, I was given six, three Australian, three New Zealand, three Australian and three New Zealand air crew to look after. To host.
WT: [?]
BB: Yeah and they were all of your vintage, your age, you know, now.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And they’d come all the way from Australia and New Zealand for free business class with [doorbell] New Zealand sorry
WT: That could be your wife.
BB: Could be my wife.
WT: Oh she’ll be, open the door.
BB: Oh I can get that for you sorry.
WT: No that’s alright. It could be somebody else. Hello.
Other: Hello.
WT: I’ve got someone with me. We thought it was his wife.
Other: Oh a parcel for me.
WT: Oh yes darling.
Other: That’s why I came. That’s very kind of you, Bill.
WT: That’s alright.
Other: Thank you very much indeed.
WT: I’ll keep the sixpence you’ll, I’ll send you the bill.
Other: Sixpence and you’ll send me the bill.
WT: We do things for one another.
BB: Yeah of course you do.
WT: Only around the corner. She’s a dear.
BB: Well done for that.
WT: When I came home last time from hospital I weren’t all that brilliant and she was doing shopping, she was insisting on doing my laundry and all that and I said -
BB: So -
WT: So I took a parcel in for her today.
BB: Right so -
WT: Where’s that going in there wasn’t it
BB: It’s with your medals yeah. Yeah yeah. So I’m with these guys and we’re all sitting them all down and I was getting and it was a pretty hot day and one of the Australians said ‘cause my name’s Bruce you see.
WT: Yeah.
BB: ‘Here, Brucie go and get us a beer mate.’ So I went and got them the beer and they ate this up and, ‘Here, I’m pretty hungry mate. Got any sandwiches?’ And we were going away and they said, ‘Look mate it’s getting hot here when’s this thing going to you know finish?’ I said, ‘Well, you know, the royals are going to be there. The Queen’s going to open it and so on and Prince Charles and Camilla will come and see you.’ ‘Right. Right. Ok.’ So this went on and the RAF BBMF Lancaster flew down and dropped these poppies but it got it wrong got it, slightly, slightly off track and all the poppies ended up in Piccadilly all over the place and -
WT: That’s one of them,
BB: Yes. Yes I know. I recognised that,
WT: Yeah.
BB: And this Australian looked up and he said, ‘Oh Christ the navig, the navs all wrong you know’ and, you know, ‘I suppose you can’t get the people these days’ and all that sort of talk, you know. Anyway I sent one of my little one of my helpers, one of my guys in our squadron, a corporal. I said, ‘Go and pick up as many of those as you can get.’
WT: Sure.
BB: And he met a policemen, this guy, with his helmet -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Just doing this you see and the policeman kept some in his pocket and he gave the rest to this guy so he gave each one of these guys one of the poppies and that was great but this Australian who was really quite vocal, nice bloke but he had with him a group captain Royal Australian Air Force from the embassy must have been the air attaché standing maybe just about there and you’re the guy right and he said, ‘Brucie, look when the royals come down can I ask when I’m going to get my’ dot dot ‘medal because I’m getting old and I’m going to fall of my perch mate and I’d rather like it.’ And I said, ‘Well you could but I don’t think it would be, you know, polite.’ He said, ‘[Dot dot] polite mate I’ve been waiting a long time.’ And then the group captain came across and said, ‘Look I’ve told you about that. That’s my job. Leave that to me.’ You know. Blah. ‘Well you’d better hurry up mate.’ And that was the end of that conversation and of course you get your, get the clasp.
WT: Oh dear.
BB: But it all went it all went it all went very well and every time I’m in London and I’ll be there next week I always get one of those British Legion wooden little wooden crosses.
WT: Yes.
BB: With the poppy on.
WT: Yeah.
BB: And I take my uncle’s crew and -
WT: Put their names down
BB: Just the one name. So my uncle first, then the bomb aimer, then and I put them all down and I look at the little little book they’ve got there.
WT: Yeah
BB: And its people write things down.
WT: Yeah
BB: And there’s obviously flowers. There’s things that gets me is this little one flower and an old plastic see through bag or
WT: Yeah.
BB: Something. With, ‘To Uncle George’ killed blah blah blah blah and you think gosh, you know and it’s such a focus that place for everybody to come and do stuff.
WT: Standing there with tears streaming down my eyes that day
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
WT: I couldn’t even -
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund people
WT: I shouted once, ‘Excuse me I’ve got to go to the toilet. Don’t do anything.’ [laughs]
BB: And I said to the Ben Fund guys who run it you know I hope someone collects all this stuff and takes it away.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Because -
WT: Sure.
BB: You should do a book after five years or something with all the, ‘cause they leave copies of pictures.
WT: Sure.
BB: And crew pictures and -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know, it’s a great archive there just on its own.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: One of their associate members who’s a bit of a B really but he rang up and said Bill I’ve got a poppy that came falling down. Did you want one? And he sent it up to me.
BB: Oh excellent.
WT: So that’s why I popped it on there.
BB: Yeah.
WT: And it keeps falling down but it fell behind one day so I put it there -
BB: I think -
WT: So it doesn’t go anywhere else.
BB: I think –
And by the way that -
BB: Yes.
WT: Is as good a representation of a lot of us coming off -
BB: Ops.
WT: Off ops yes.
BB: I’ll take a picture of that.
WT: The actual depth of that thing.
BB: Yeah. I’ll take a picture of that but -
WT: It’s terrific.
BB: I think I have at home a programme from that day. I’ll send it to you. From the Bomber memorial.
WT: I was here then.
BB: Yes I know but I’ve got -
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know I think I’ve got a number of spares. I will send it to you.
WT: But I would love to have been there.
BB: Well it was such a privilege.
WT: Two or three of our members were there.
BB: Yeah it was a privilege to be there and, and
WT: ‘cause we had a, I started a help doing it with Johnny [Johns?] on, who by the way has written a lovely book on our stuff. Did I have that out? No I didn’t
BB: That’s ok well I’ve got a feeling -
WT: That is
BB: Ok.
WT: That’s on.
BB: 153.
WT: That is done. Is on the internet somewhere or something.
BB: Is it?
Yeah.
BB: I’ll try and find it when I go back.
WT: Johnny’s done it. He’s got -
BB: When was that written? Let’s have a look
WT: Just inside is by the date its a few years ago. I don’t know if
BB: Oh here we are. April 1998.
WT: Yeah Johnny was one of the pilots that came just after when the war was more or less finished. He started just when we were just finishing the war but he became the chairman of our Association.
BB: Yes. How lovely.
WT: It’s a terrific book because it’s got -
BB: It’s a lovely book.
WT: You know you can see when everybody did everything.
BB: Yeah it was a lovely book. And it’s, it’s -
BB: It’s terrific.
BB: I have one similar for 9 squadron but not in so much detail.
WT: That, that has got every op was done and who was on it and everything else.
BB: Yes.
WT: And about all these tables.
BB: Has anybody got all these for the national -
WT: And the aircraft.
BB: We would have got these for the national archive.
WT: Oh no. No he -
BB: Logbooks.
WT: He was down there. He used to go down and, and -
BB: Yes at the archive.
WT: Yeah, he’d go down there.
BB: Oh I was down. It’s a great place to be it really is.
WT: He lived down in York way.
BB: Yeah.
WT: No he didn’t Salisbury sorry it was Salisbury ‘cause his daughter, one of his daughter is still there.
BB: Yes, That’s lovely.
WT: He used to come regularly to our dos.
BB: And you were on C flight yeah.
WT: Hmmn?
BB: C flight.
WT: No A.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: I was A flight. Yeah.
BB: A flight. Ok.
WT: Yeah there was -
BB: Sorry.
WT: You will see our crew there somewhere.
BB: Yes. I’m just looking for it here.
WT: Bruce Potter at the top.
BB: Potter’s crew eh.
WT: Did you not see it?
BB: Yeah hold on.
WT: He was on A flight.
BB: Potter.
WT: Almost where you had your thumb there.
BB: Potter.
WT: Is it over that side somewhere?
BB: Oh here he is. Potter. There we are.
WT: Yeah.
BB: I’ll take a note of that.
WT: His name was Bruce.
10859
BB: Well he’s got an Australian name mate.
WT: Certainly has, yes mate.
BB: Except mine’s more Scottish than Australian. In fact one of my objectives for this when I was down here my uncle who was the Australian he married my mother’s sister ‘cause I was born in Gainsborough which is Bomber Command Hemswell not too far from Hemswell.
WT: Yes, Hemswell. Yeah.
BB: And my brother was born in Newark and my, this Australian pilot was courting my mother’s sister while he was on ops but he wouldn’t marry her while he was on ops ‘cause he didn’t feel, he’d had so many young ladies coming to the mess after their husband’s had died and he wouldn’t do it. He said he would marry her when he’d finished ops but he was killed instructing and they were only married four months but my cousin was born you know shortly thereafter well you know nine months later basically and so he, he was born in the place where I was brought up by my grandmother at Coldstream in Berwickshire and the family claimed, the family claimed the body.
WT: Oh yeah.
BB: And he was brought up by train to Cornhill station and lay overnight in the family house and my grandfather had, was a commander of the local home guard having been an old soldier and he wanted to open the coffin ‘cause it lay in the front room with a flag on it and my mother was a nurse and my mother said I don’t think we should do that ‘cause he was burnt. She knew he had been burnt and so they didn’t do it. They said let’s just remember him.
WT: As we thought he was.
BB: As we was and when the guys came up from, from the RAF station he was at for the funeral his widow, my aunt, said I’d like his watch or his flying jacket please. Sorry all we’ve got is this this and which you’ll get from the committee of adjustment and they’ll send to you and all the rest but so when you go to this little Scottish cemetery you’ll see this Australian AF war grave.
WT: Right.
BB: That’s him.
WT: That’s him. Well I never.
BB: But he was only twenty one and the last time his mother saw him was when he was seventeen and a half to leave, leave Australia to come home come here.
WT: Yeah.
BB: You know.
WT: Yeah.
BB: It was just one of those awful things.
WT: What are you trying to do there?
BB: He had finished his, he had finished his, his ops and was screened and funny you know the crew all got together you know.
WT: Ah huh.
BB: And they said, ‘We’ll go on pathfinders. We’re safer on pathfinders than we are instructing.’ And that was the view and he said, ‘No, I can’t. I’ve got to, I want to get married and I’m not going to that.’ but if he had done that he probably would have been alright.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Exactly.
BB: There we go. It wasn’t to be I suppose. These things are always -
WT: Yeah.
BB: Sad.
WT: Sent to, sent to try us.
BB: They are. Well Bill thanks very much.
WT: That’s alright my friend.
BB: And I’ll be back I’m sure if I’m down this way again. It’s so lovely to talk to you.
WT: Yeah.
BB: There’s all your bits.
WT: Yeah. You’ve got, you’ve got the medals.
BB: I’ve got that picture you leant me and I’ll send that back when I get home tonight and I’ve got -
WT: You didn’t, you didn’t take the medals.
BB: No. No.
WT: No.
BB: No you’ve got them. Better check I don’t want you to, there they are in the bag
WT: That’s alright, they’re in the bag.
BB: They are in your just check please just check. No, no, no I haven’t got them. There they are
WT: I don’t know why, yeah they’re there such as they are.
BB: Well we’ll try and change that.
WT: I’m never bothered about medals.
BB: No. Well a lot of people don’t but the gran
WT: I’m not a medal man.
BB: No. A lot of people weren’t but you know there’s things like grandchildren who, who -
WT: Well. Paul -
BB: You’ve got, you’ve got your grandchildren now.
WT: My grandson.
BB: Who you would obviously like.
WT: They’re down in Salisbury at the moment I’m hoping they’re going to move a bit nearer but he’s interested but his nephew bless him is he’s only seven and a half at the moment.
BB: Yeah.
WT: But there’s a photograph of him up there. Jack. He’s very, very keen on it. Very keen.
BB: Well so he should be. It’s a great honour that you’ve done this.
WT: There’s the office.
BB: There’s the office, that’s right.
WT: These were, these were taken from the just, what is she called the one over, Just Jane over there in, we used to go down there a lot to the Panton Brothers where they’ve got the aircraft that taxies around.
BB: Yeah. Ok what have I got to do here now?
WT: [yawn] excuse me. This is all to do with the Lincolnshire arrangement that going, the spire’s gone up hasn’t it?
BB: Not yet. No, no, no, not -
WT: Oh I thought they’d already lifted it because our lot were down on oh a month and a half ago to their, to the reunion and that was the day when it was going to be delivered. They moved, had to move away because time was going on they’d only just got down the road and they saw it going back up.
BB: Right.
WT: Just coming. So they couldn’t do anything about it.
BB: No.
WT: I thought they said they put it up that night. Erected it.
BB: What? The spire?
WT: Yeah.
BB: In Lincoln?
WT: Yeah.
BB: Well to tell you the truth it might have done but I haven’t heard of it yet but -
WT: Well I thought that’s what they it had happened. They brought that in and the lorries or whatever was carrying it were going to get it upright for them to to anchor it down or whatever. I don’t know. Because they are going to build a great big wall around it aren’t t they with the name of the people who died
BB: Yes
WT: Or were killed. So [they’ll have old Giffords?] down on that one bless him. My room-mate.
BB: Oh God. There’s more bumph here.
WT: Cost you more money now.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Right so we’d better get on with the paperwork. Let me just have a look at it
WT: Oh I thought you’d done it.
BB: No I’ve just been reading it here so we’ll better get on with it. Won’t be a minute. I think I’ll just call my wife up I’m a bit worried about her. See where she is
WT: I was going to say from my bedroom you can probably see the car.
BB: So when’s your next medical people coming in. When, when do they come in, every day to see you?
WT: No. No. No Wednesday is the day when everything normally happens.
BB: Yeah.
WT: At the moment I’ve got ear trouble but I’m off for another week but on Wednesday they come in to change your leg bag and do all kinds of things so I have to watch it but I’m alright I’m off for the next week or two I’m not doing too badly.
BB: Hi Jeannie. It’s me. I’m finished with Bill. I wonder if you could come back to to look at this documentation. It might need a witness. I’m not sure. Ok I’ll call you later. Or you can give me a call now. Thanks bye.
WT: Oh you’ve left her a message have you?
BB: Yeah she’s -
WT: Oh.
BB: She’s probably walking the dog.
WT: Stay where you are I think I can see the car from here.
BB: Ok thanks.
From the bedroom.
[pause]
WT: No the trees are in the way. I said the tree is in the way.
BB: Oh its William [Headley] Thomas isn’t it?
WT: [Headley].
BB: Oh that’s worth, that’s worthy of a photograph.
WT: Oh I don’t know I was just going to show you that. They were taken more or less the same time. You see what she’s wearing?
BB: Yes.
WT: A new pair of wings.
BB: Oh that’s lovely. May I take a picture of that one?
WT: Oh, go on. You don’t want that man.
BB: Yes I do. You’re, now that, now that you’ve been interviewed my dear boy you are now part of the national archive.
WT: Don’t.
BB: You are going to be in the Bomber Command archive.
WT: Am I?
BB: Yeah, you are.
WT: I thought, I thought it was the Lincolnshire.
BB: Yeah but it’s going to the University of Lincoln.
WT: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
WT: Yeah.
BB: But that’s why we’ve got to sign this other stuff.
WT: While you’re doing that it’s happened again this damned bag.
BB: Oh I’m sorry.
WT: No it’s alright ‘cause it just happens like that I have a big bag to put on the end of it at night thank God.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Bill had joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps and Air Training Corps. He volunteered as a pilot in the Royal Air Force and flew Tiger Moths at RAF Sywell but was re-mustered as a navigator. Bill went to Canada as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme, where he did bomb aiming, gunnery and navigation training. He was offered a commission and did some special training on Prince Edward Island before going to the holding unit at Moncton.
Bill returned to Scotland and converted to bomb aiming. He crewed up at RAF Castle Donington and went to RAF Sandtoft and RAF Hemswell to the Lancaster Finishing School. Bill was transferred to 166 Squadron at RAF Kirmington, flying Lancasters. They then went to RAF Scampton as 153 Squadron. Bill conducted 29 operations and one which was aborted because of engine problems. Bill then trained as an equipment officer, being sent to RAF Strubby. He then demobilised and returned to his job in local government.
The interview discusses relationships between commissioned and non-commissioned crew, Bill’s thoughts on Dresden, Bomber Command and Arthur Harris, and the awarding of medals.
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AThomasWH150711
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Canada
Alberta
Ontario
Ontario--Toronto
Prince Edward Island
Québec
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Harrogate
England--Hastings
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Manchester
England--Northamptonshire
England--Redruth
England--Sussex
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Wigtown
Wales--Aberystwyth
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
United States
New York (State)
New York (State)--New York
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-11
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Creator
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Bruce Blanche
Format
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01:19:53 audio recording
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
observer
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Bicester
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF Strubby
RAF Sywell
target photograph
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/119/2485/MThomasWH152984-150721-01.1.pdf
6e05ffb1f503d2bba606b04b23c36c98
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
WILLIAM HEDLEY THOMAS (AGE 93)
My first interest in the RAF came in 1938 while I was a pupil at Redruth Grammar School in Cornwall, when a flight of the Air Defence Cadet Corps was formed there and I became a member. I am sure its formation occurred because Mr Weatherall our Headmaster had been a fighter pilot in the First World War which really instIlled interest in those of us aged 16 and above. I remained a member of ADCC until August 1939 when I left school for employment.
When the Air Training Corps was formed in 1941 I joined the flight which was formed in Redruth where we had the usual instruction in Morse code, and navigation, shooting and of course drill (dreaded drill). We were fortunate to have visits to RAF Portreath aerodrome and that is where I had my first flight, in a Miles Magister. It was great!
I volunteered and was accepted for aircrew training in August 1941 and placed on deferred service and continued as a member of the ATC, reaching for the dizzy height of Sergeant! While awaiting my call-up to the RAF I had to register for National Service but informed the officials that I was already a member of the RAF and gave them my service number. Two or three weeks later I had call-up papers from the Army! I called the registration office and they said no problem we will sort it. However after another week I had a forceful letter from the Army telling me to report to depot or other, by such and such a date or they come and fetch me! Panic!
Fortunately we had a family friend who was an Army officer in the First World War and he contacted the Army on the phone using language I was not then used to and I heard no more!
So eventually, in February 1942 I was called up by the RAF and went to the aircrew reception centre in London. I reported, as so many had done, to Lord’s cricket ground for registration. We were provided with a uniform (which was tailored to fit) and received the first batch of injections. We were billeted in what had been serviced apartments in Prince Albert Road, quite close to Regents Park zoo. Here we had various lectures, a lot of drill and endured an extremely cold London.
Then came our posting to Initial Training Wing at a very much warmer Aberystwyth in West Wales. Here we received training in navigation, Morse code and RAF Law besides large doses of more drill, physical training and sports.
I enjoyed the course at ITW very much, especially as I knew it was the beginning of flying training. As I said earlier the weather at Aberystwth was warm and we rarely needed to wear greatcoats (which we did in London) and by June, when the course ended, it was a really warm summer. I learned that I had passed the course ended, it was a really warm summer. I learned that I had passed the course and was promoted to the exalted rank of L A C (more pay too!).
I was then posted to Sywell in Northamptonshire to begin training as a pilot. Unfortunately I failed the course because my landings were deemed dangerous and I was unable to go solo. Mind you, I did not get on very well with my instructor who was over 6 feet tall, as against my 5 foot six and as he sat in the front cockpit what chance had I of seeing straight ahead? No contest!
From Sywell I was posted in July 1942 to Heaton Park, Manchester, which was a holding unit for potential aircrew awaiting the decision as to my future training, along with quite a number of others. We were then sent to Hastings, another holding unit, where we were billeted in a large block of flats (Marine Court) right on the seafront. We were only at Hastings for about three weeks because one afternoon at about 4 PM on our return from the sports afternoon, a German aircraft on a hit-and run sortie dropped a smallish bomb on one end of the building. Fortunately no-one was injured, however it caused perhaps the fastest reaction I have ever experienced. By 4 AM the next morning
[page break]
we were getting on a train (with a day’s dry rations) and we were taken to Harrogate to yet another holding unit!!
I enjoyed Harrogate very much where we received the usual few lectures and drill and bags and bags of sport. Harrogate was a great posting, especially as there were lots of young ladies there who were the clerical staff of the General Post Office who had been evacuated there from London!
I was eventually brought out of my reverie by a posting back to Heaton Park with a few dozen other bods, where we were informed as to our future training which for me was as a navigator/bomb aimer. This we were given to understand, would not be in Great Britain but overseas, as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme.
It was in late November 1942 that King George the Sixth sent me to Canada, aboard the Queen Elizabeth, to train as a navigator/bomb aimer, thus enabling the rest of the country to get on with the war. To my delight, I was informed that I would not have to pay my own fare.
The memories of that voyage are still with me. I remember approaching the liner on a small tender and being showered with toilet rolls which were thrown by the disembarking aircrew who had returned to the UK sporting their wings. Not to be outdone, we advised them to hang on to the toilet rolls, as there was a shortage of that commodity in our war-torn homeland.
Once aboard, I was given a job as a kind of security guard (along with 20 or 30 others) to prevent smoking in any place other than the cabins. I remember pointing out to Edward G Robinson that such a rule existed, when I spotted him and a large cigar waiting for the Lift. He promptly took a deep puff on the cigar, stepped into the lift and said with a smile, “Is that so. Bud?”
We had quite a large number of well-known people (including Douglas Fairbanks) on board and to our delight, they provided several evenings of entertainment for us during the crossing. The meals were very good and it was a special treat for us to be served with white bread after eating since 1939, the sandy brown standard wartime loaf.
We took several days on the voyage since we were sailing unaccompanied a long way south before turning and travelling up the Eastern seaboard of the United States. We were informed that the detour had taken place because a U-boat pack had been detected in mid Atlantic. Good intelligence and communication obviously saved us and I understand that Lord Haw-Haw had reported us as sunk on two occasions. We sailed into New York harbour and docked adjacent to the Queen Mary and the Ile-de-France, the latter lying on her side after suffering a major fire some time earlier.
Whilst most of those on board were allowed to disembark, I found myself appointed as a member of the baggage party. About 30 of we unfortunates were given the task of unloading the rest of the RAF contingent kit bags. As a result, at the end of the day we were still aboard but were delights that that evening to be served with the most terrific meal which we considered to be a just reward for our hard labours as baggage handlers.
The next morning we disembarked and after being transported by coach to Grand Central Station, we caught a train that would transport us to Moncton in Canada. But all did not go smoothly, because en route, we were involved in a train crash. The crash was on the Gaspie Peninsula, at the mouth of the St Lawrence River when a freight train, with a huge cargo of logs crashed into us while we were waiting at a small country station. Fortunately we, the RAF contingent, only sustained a few cuts and bruises.
[page break]
Mainly because of the steel constructions of the trains in Canada we were lucky indeed. Further luck for four of us who got invited by the daughters of a nearby farming family to have some breakfast. We accepted and trudged across two large snowbound fields to the farmhouse. Just as we finished, breakfast, we were told that a relief train had arrived at the station to take us on to our destination Moncton. We missed it! However we boarded the next train and we were met in Moncton by an NCO, a sergeant I think, who told us off and then we boarded transport to the camp. It was pointed out to us that the rest of the party had to march there so we were lucky again!
Moncton, on the eastern seaboard of Canada, was another holding unit where we awaited posting to the start of our real training. However we were at Moncton for Christmas 1942 and also over the New Year in Arctic like whether with plenty of snow. A case of infectious disease, scarlet fever I think, caused member of the hut I was in to be in quarantine for some weeks until finally our posting arrived.
In February 1943 I was posted to number six bombing and gunnery school at Mountain View, Ontario where we practiced gunnery in Bolingbrokes, the Canadian version of the Blenheim, as well as on the gunnery range. We then turned out attention to flying in Ansons and practised dropping practice bombs. This seems to have taken quite a while really because it was the end of March 1943 before we left Mountain View for Number 8 Air Observer School at Ancienne Lorette, Quebec, to begin navigational training.
The navigation course at number eight air observer school at Ancienne Lorette, lasted from early April 1943 to early August 1943 and as well as air day and night navigation trips averaging around three hours each, we did a lot of classroom work including a navigation exercises, meteorology, signalling, aircraft recognition and armament together with a lot of practice work in the air and on the ground on astro-navigation.
At the end of the course I learned that I had passed and took my place on the passing out parade to receive my Observer brevet and also I was delighted to find out that I had been granted a commission.
We were then, after three weeks leave which I spent with my uncle and his family in Toronto, posted to Number 1 General Reconnaissance School at Prince Edward Island in the Gulf of St Lawrence River, where for three weeks we were to carry out navigation trips over the sea using what is termed dead reckoning navigation, by star or sun shots, taking bearings from radio transmissions to find our position. We learned how to identify all the naval ships of the world, quite a task. I found this course both challenging and interesting and I was glad to hear that I had received a pass which I hoped would lead me to be a navigator on coastal command when I returned to the UK.
At the end of the course at the beginning of October 1943 we were posted again to Moncton to wait before being shipped back to Great Britain. This did not happen until December 1943 when I returned on the Aquitainia, quite a nice ship but not so well appointed as the Queen Elizabeth. We landed back at Gourock and travelled down to Harrogate.
Harrogate was still a holding unit and there was quite a large number of aircrew gathering there from training in Canada and South Africa, eagerly awaiting postings to operational training units. In my case along with others from course in Canada, it was to be another three months before we got such a posting. I, of course, wanted to be sent to Coastal Command, which is what our extended training had been for, but it was not until early in April 1944 that we were told that we were to go to Wigtown in Scotland. On enquiry we were told that this was an advanced training unit for bomb aimers. We tried to argue that
[page break]
surely all the training in Canada that we had received ought to be for carrying out duties as navigators in one of the RAF commands. We were told that there no chance whatsoever of this and off to Wigtown we went. You can imagine there was quite a lot of disgruntled bods there but we decided that we must grin and bear it. We were told to remove our coveted and hard earner observer brevet and replace them with the B brevet and this produced a lot of very upset and in disgruntled people; so much so that caused a visit from an officer from HQ in London (an Air Commodore I think) to come up to Wigtown to meet us. He informed us that our C.O. had told him that we were refusing to fly, which in fact was totally untrue as we were continuing with our flights. As a result, the Air Commodore contacted London and an official ruling was made and we were told we could continue to wear (with pride I might say) our Observer Brevets. So, we completed the course and were granted 2 to 3 weeks leave and were instructed to report from there to number eight operational training unit at Castle Donington {which is now East Midlands Airport).
We arrived at the O.T.U. late in May 1944 and were crewed up, not being directed as to who would fly with who, but quietly talking to each other and trying to decide who you thought would be someone to trust your life with. I think I was fortunate in my choice as we all seem to get on from the start and it proved to the case when we continued to fly together later in the operations. However before we became members of the squadron there was more training to be done. First of all by the crew of six (there was no flight engineer in the crew at OTU) flying in the Vickers Wellington, learning all about our duties in an operational bomber. We were at Castle Donington from 27 May 1944 until 14 July 1944 and then we transferred to 1667 heavy conversion unit at RAF Sandtoft, learning the skills needed for coping in a four engine aircraft – in this case the Handley Page Halifax and there we were joined by the seventh member of our crew, the flight engineer.
We left RAF Sandtoft on 1 September 1944 and moved to number one Lancaster finishing school at RAF Hemswell. This proved quite a short course of about three weeks and we were then posted to join 166 squadron at RAF Kimmington on 26 September 1944, as members of C flight. This flight was being assembled to be made into another squadron, 153. This was duly achieved and some four operations were flown by the squadron from Kimmington before, on 15 October 1944, 153 squadron moved to RAF Scampton, in Lincolnshire, flying their acquired 18 aircraft there, while the ground staff travelled in a fleet of buses accompanied by a group of 3 ton lorries loaded with personal baggage. Our crew had the pleasure of being in the first of the 153 squadron aircraft to land at Scampton from Kimmington [sic] and had an unusual sight of an empty aerodrome: that is no aircraft on the ground, with a small number of ground crews standing by at dispersals to receive the aircraft.
Scampton was a station that was built before World War II and accommodation was in solid built buildings with tarmac laid roads and pavements; no mud to squelch through. Bruce Potter (the pilot) and I were allocated a room within the officers mess itself, but some of the others had to live in the previous married quarters which meant a shortish walk to the mess for meals and so forth.
On 19 October 1944, 153 squadron carried out its first operation from Scampton – 15 aircraft attacking Stuttgart. Our crew’s operations did not start until 31 October 1944 against Cologne. We carried on operations against various targets including the much written about town of Dresden on 13 February 1945, until 8 March 1945, we on takeoff for Kassel, our skipper Bruce Potter fainted at the controls. We were well down the runway with our tail up and it was the first rate action of our flight engineer Gordon Woolley, who managed to haul the control column back; cut the engines and bring the aircraft to a halt after it had executed a flat spin. The skipper was taken off to sickbay and the rest of us gathered outside the aircraft where the squadron commander, Wing Commander Powley, invited us to fly that night with another pilot. We firmly
[page break]
declined his invitation. We were then sent home on three weeks leave and on our return found that our skipper had left the station. He had gone to hospital I think. He never returned.
The remainder of the crew (six of us), completed the remaining three operations to complete our 29 operations with another pilot. Flight Lieutenant Williams, an Australian. Our last operation was on 9 April 1945 and on 10 April that same year we were sent home on leave, never again to meet up as a crew.
There is a list of our targets at the end of this article, together with the duration of each and I must say that we were a very lucky crew. Perhaps it was due to a little black cat which I wore pinned to my battledress. It was sent to me by an “anonymous admirer”. During all our trips we never experienced a single attack from an enemy fighter or received any substantial flak from German anti-aircraft fire. Jack Boyle was a first-class and diligent navigator and kept us on track and on time for every trip. We did have to abort on a trip to Politz on 8 February 1945 when one engine packed up and then another started losing power, but we were able to return safely to base. Another time, on 18 November 1944 while returning from bombing Wanne Eicline, our instruments packed up. It was a filthy night of wind and rain and there was a diversion for us to land at another aerodrome as RAF Scampton was fogbound. The crew decided that it would not be a good thing to try and land at strange aerodrome and we therefore diverted to the special diversion aerodrome at Woodbridge in Suffolk, where the runways were extremely long and wide. Bruce our skipper and Gordon the flight engineer were able to effect a temporary repair the next morning and we were then able to return to Scampton.
My leave on completion of the tour of operations was quite extensive as the great Western Railway managed to lose my kit bag with all my flying kit during my return to Scampton. I was sent home to recover it, something I was unable to do and so eventually, in July 1945 (after being home nearly 3 months) I was recalled to Scampton. I was informed that I was to train as an equipment officer and sent for training to RAF Bicester. This course lasted about six weeks and I was then posted as a fully fledged equipment officer to 35 maintenance unit at Heywood near Manchester. Within a week I was sent to RAF Strubby in Lincolnshire which no longer an operational station, to arrange to clear it of all its equipment. There was only a skeleton staff there and these were gradually posted away, leaving only about 30 other ranks (mainly equipment personnel) and myself, together with another ex-aircrew equipment (Flying Officer Frank Wilkes) who had been sent from Heywood to assist me.
It was a massive task of transferring the wanted equipment to appropriate maintenance units throughout the UK, however I never saw the end of the task and neither did Flying Officer Wilkes, as our times for release from the RAF occurred at the same time and so in July 1946 we left for Civvy Street and I returned to my job with the Cornwall County Council.
I lost contact with the crew but many years later through a letter which I had published in the RAFA magazine I made contact with Jack Boyle our navigator who was at that time living in Blackpool. However, Jack was in rather poor health. We were able to swap phone calls and letters for about 12 months before sadly, he died. Some years later I was fortunate enough to make contact with Harry Hambrook our rear gunner who lives in Harrogate. I’m glad to say that we keep in contact and are able to meet up each year at our squadron reunions.
I moved to Morpeth in Northumberland 20 years ago and on joining the Northumbria branch of the Aircrew Association, I met Mr Bill Foote from Alnmouth who had been a pilot flying Halifaxes with 77 squadron in Yorkshire. It was some little
[page break]
while before Bill and I discovered that we were both on the Queen Elizabeth voyage to Canada in November 1942. Now we both meet up with two or three others on a regular basis for lunch.
Another coincidence occurred after I joined the 153 Squadron Association about 12 years ago and met two associate member who had uncles in the crew of Pilot Officer Gibbins, the pilot in 153 Squadron at Scampton who shared a room with my skipper Bruce Potter and I. “Gibby” and I became great friends and were companions on sorties to Lincoln on days when we were on stand down from flying duties, to carry out “beer testing” in Lincoln’s many pubs! Unfortunately “Gibby’s” aircraft was lost on a daylight raid on Essen on 11 March 1945. Sad to say there were no survivors. These two members of the Squadron Association have been to Germany and visited Reichswald Forest war cemetery in Kleve, where their uncles are buried. I meet up each year with those two members, Ernie and Dave at our Squadron Association reunion which is held in Lincoln.
I must confess that I was quite disappointed at not being able to fly as a pilot (in a Spitfire in fighter command of course!) However, completing our tour of operations on bomber command and being one of “Bomber” Harris’s Boys was something I look back on with pride. I also give thanks for not being wounded or being one of the 55,573 airmen who were killed in action.
Much has been written by historians who have decried the efforts of bomber command and have called its head “Butcher Bomber Harris”, saying that he was targeting the civilian population of German cities. I can in no way agree with them as there was always some industry in each of the cities targeted. Dresden is often referred to as being a civilian target; not so, because it had armament factories including Zeiss Ikon, which provided a supply of precision instruments to the German forces. It was also an important communication centre with considerable concentration of troops within the city.
Our crew took part in the Dresden raid on the 13th and 14 February 1945, unloading our bomb load of a 4000lb “cookie” and lots of incendiaries on the city when I pressed the bomb key. Should I count myself as a murderer for doing that? Some people in this country seem to think so but most of them were not alive at the time and so did not have to endure the bombing of our cities by the German air force.
[underlined] W.H. Thomas [/underlined]
Bill Thomas
11/07/15
I AGREE WITH THE INTERVIEW
[page break]
LIST OF OPERATIONS
DATE DESTINATION DURATION
11/10/44 Fort Frederick Heindrik 3.20
31/10/44 Cologne 5.20
02/11/44 Dusseldorf 5.20
04/11/44 Bochum 5.20
09/11/44 Wanne Eicline 4.55
16/11/44 Duren 4.30
18/11/44 Wanne Eicline 5.35
04/12/44 Karlsrhue [sic] 4.30
13/12/44 Essen 6.05
17/12/44 Ulm 7.50
28/12/44 Bonn 5.40
29/12/44 Buer 6.20
31/12/44 Osterfeld 5.50
02/01/45 Nurnberg 8.40
05/01/45 Royan 7.30
07/01/45 Munich 9.25
14/01/45 Merseburg (Leuna) 8.35
28/01/45 Zuffenhausen 7.15
03/02/45 Bottrop 6.10
04/02/45 Gardening – Heligo Bight 4.45
08/02/45 Aborted – Politz 2.50
13/02/45 Dresden 10.20
14/02/45 Gardening – Keil Bay 6.15
[page break]
20/02/45 Dortmund 6.25
22/02/45 Duisberg 5.50
23/02/45 Phorzheim 8.05
07/03/45 Dessau 10.00
08/03/45 Ground Loop – Kassel
03/04/45 Nordhausen 6.30
04/04/45 Lutzkendorf 8.10
09/04/45 Keil 5.55
Total Hours Night 185.45
Day 19.25
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bill Thomas memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MThomasWH152984-150721-01
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bill Thomas
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eight typewritten pages
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Scotland
Wales
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Wales--Aberystwyth
New Brunswick--Moncton
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
New Brunswick
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Ontario
Ontario--Belleville
Description
An account of the resource
He describes his first interest in the RAF, in 1938. He joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps, and later in 1941 the Air Training Corps. He was called up by the RAF in February 1942, and proceeded through initial training and the Initial Training Wing at Aberystwyth. Here he was promoted to leading aircraftsman. Having failed his pilots course, he was subsequently sent to Moncton Canada in late November 1942. Following a number of postings including bombing and gunnery school and navigation he was shipped home on the Aquitania back to the UK in December 1943. In early 1944 he was posted to Wigtown to train as a bomb aimer. He reported to 28 Operational Training Unit in late May 1944 where he crewed up. After flying in Wellingtons he passed through the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Sandtoft and the Lancaster Fininshing School at RAF Hemswell. He joined 166 Squadron, his flight forming 153 Squadron, which moved to Scampton, and on 31st October 1944 carried out his first operation on Cologne. He continued on operations including the attack on Dresden on 13th February 1945. On completion of his tour he trained as an equipment officer. He was released by the RAF in July 1946 and returned to his job with Cornwall County Council, He eventually moved to Morpeth in Northumberland and maintained his links with the 153 Squadron Association.
Contributor
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Karl Williams
David Bloomfield
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
1667 HCU
28 OTU
aircrew
Anson
Bolingbroke
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing and Gunnery School
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF Strubby
RAF Wigtown
training
Wellington
-
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df5da1c4c93570824e924665aeffc7c5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/207/3343/ABawdenHH160810.2.mp3
1b440b405014296da1ac20828edaf0e1
Dublin Core
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Title
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Bawden, Harvey Hayward
Harvey Hayward Bawden
Harvey H Bawden
Harvey Bawden
H H Bawden
H Bawden
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Warrant Officer Harvey Hayward Bawden (419835 Royal Australian Air Force). Harvey Bawden volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and after training in the United States, flew operations with 153 Squadron from RAF Scampton and 150 Squadron from RAF Hemswell as a mid-upper gunner. He was shot down and became a prisoner of war on his 29th operation.
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Date
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2016-07-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bawden, HH
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JB: It's the 10th of August 2016, and the interview, my interviewee is Harvey Bawden from xxxxxx, Bendigo, Victoria. Harvey's squadron was 150, rank of warrant officer, and his crew position was mid upper, er, upper mid gunner. Um, so, the date you enlisted, and where did you enlist?
HB: I enlisted in Bendigo in 1942.
JB: And from the home town? Your home town?
HB: Er, from the hill where I lived. I came from the Pyramid Hill [?] of Bendigo to enlist, and then of course I had to go to Melbourne for induction and all those things.
JB: And you went, what school did you go to?
HB: I went to the Bendigo Technical College.
JB: And as a civilian, your job? You were a farmer.
HB: I was a wool grower, yes.
JB: What made you volunteer for Bomber Command? [pause] I suppose firstly, what made you volunteer in the war?
HB: Oh well, it wasn't a big decision to make, my father had been a serviceman in the First World War, as a light horseman. Er, stories of service life had been part of my growing up, I suppose, but I, when I became eighteen of age I automatically enlisted, er, I enlisted in aircrew because I was interested in flight [pause] and [pause], yes, I, I was looking forward to the time when I was able to enlist.
JB: Were you aware of the high casualty rates?
HB: Well, er, war stories were not new to me. I knew a little bit about the war, but also there was war all around us, and it was an inevitability that able-bodied people would be involved, and, no, I didn't give it a great amount of consideration, I must confess, no.
JB: What about your family? I mean how did they feel about it? Your mum.
HB: Oh well, I don't suppose they were happy to see me enlist, but as I said before, my father was an ex-serviceman, and I got plenty of encouragement from the family, yes.
JB: So, where did you, where did you train, once you'd enlisted?
HB: Ah well, very briefly, oh first I went to Summers, which was what they called initial training school, where we were given a lot of theory and [pause] grounding in aircrew things, but it was really assessing, I think, the young people, to see if they could cram a lot of subjects in a very short time, and had the ability to go on quickly. I can remember particularly at Summers there were some sheds were used for classrooms, and we didn't walk between those sheds, we had to, we had to, actually go at the double, because they were short of time, and we were very young and fit. But after spending the time at Summers initial training school, if we passed the course we were, we were [pause], we were assigned to different channels of aircrew training. We all, of course, would like to have been made pilot, young pilots, and I was very fortunate that I was categorised for pilot training, and I was sent then to initial, er, to elementary flying training school at the Nowra in Victoria, where we were trained to fly Tiger Moths. And it was a wonderful period of my life, I had an interesting and capable instructor, and we enjoyed very much the period of flying, from the time of first solo until we were practising aerobatics and doing solo cross countries, it was a very exhilarating period of a young person's life. At the end of that course we were again categorised for singles or multis, which meant going on to be a fighter pilot if you went on singles, or bomber pilot if you were multis. And again I obtained what I wanted to have, and that was fighter pilot training on singles, and I was sent then to Uranquinty in New South Wales, flying on Wirraways, and sadly during that course, and when I felt quite capable and comfortable with the course, nine of us were taken off the course and told that we were to be re-mustered to bomber crews, and of course this was a most disturbing and, er, disappointing thing to happen. However, we, we were sent to Bradfield Park in New South Wales, and given a choice of what we would like to do in bomber crews. And I chose to be a gunner. And I was sent to Sale and I did a gunneries course, and very quickly I was sent to England, er, via America, to join in Bomber Command, which was the ultimate, I imagine, at the time. We had a very uncomfortable trip to England, it was wartime of course, and we travelled from Brisbane to San Francisco in the United States of America, in a liberty ship, and they were terrible things. They were the first all-welded boats, made during the war for transport purposes. They weren't very large and they were certainly very uncomfortable. But after about three weeks we, one morning, saw, coming through the mist, er, one of the American airships they had patrolling their coastline, and coming through the fog we came into the, into the port of San Francisco. And after a bit of leave in San Francisco, we were put on [unclear], on a very comfortable Pullman train, and we travelled right across the States by train to New York. It took about a week, and that was a very interesting journey. And we had a short period of leave in New York whilst-
JB: S- sorry Harvey, there's a lovely story about the Afro-American on the train. I'd really like, 'cause it says a lot about the Aussies, so-
HB: Ah, well, I've just got to break into that somehow. Yes, well, on this train we, they were very comfortable old train carriages, they were Pullman carriages, they were sleepers, and, er, we had an African-American person in each carriage, looking after us. And some of us spent most of the day on a observation carriage type thing, talking to this, er, old gentleman who was our, looking after us. He was very, very interesting, he'd been on the route for a long time, and he could give us a lot of interesting information on the country we were passing through, and the cities we came in to. And, er, quite an old gentleman. At the end of our journey to New York we took up a collection, and gave to him in appreciation for his looking after us so well on the trip. And the old chap became quite emotional, and he said he'd been hauling American troops for years on the trains, but he'd never ever received the respect and attention that he had with the Australians, and he also said that the money we had given him would be sufficient to buy his son, who was about to go to a university, a new overcoat, and that was a very pleasant thing [unclear] to our trip across the States. In New York we had some leave whilst we awaited the arrival of the Queen Elizabeth, who was, of course she was doing a regular trip between America and Britain on, [pause], on eh as a troop ship. Eventually she arrived, and we were five hundred Australian aircrew, all Australians, and we didn't make much difference to the, the seventeen thousand, I think it was, on board the Queen Elizabeth. But it was a, after our experience on the liberty ship, it was a very luxurious journey on board the Queen Elizabeth. We aircrew fellas, I think we had to share, er, we had cabins, but only cut down slightly on normal accommodation. The Queen Elizabeth wasn't escorted, she was too fast to travel in convoy, she travelled on a zigzag course relying on speed and all the electronics and [pause] she had on board. We, we eventually pulled into the, the, into Glasgow, the port of Glasgow. The Queen Elizabeth never came right into port, she remained out in the straits and we came off by lighters, this was so she could be quickly manoeuvred about in emergencies from bombing. In Glasgow we [pause]
JB: -at all. As good as gold.
HB: We boarded a troop train, in Glasgow, and came down, all the way down through, er, through Britain, to Brighton, which was our destination, of course, and all the aircrew arrivals were billeted in one of two major hotels in Brighton. Er, quite a luxurious arrival actually. And we were very pleased to get to Brighton, we were all very weary after all our travel. But at Brighton which was a pool, and a place where all aircrew were sorted into groups suitable for training, we were given disembarkation leave. There was a great feeling of haste there about everything. This disembarkation leave was very, very brief, and we were very quickly put on course for operational training courses, and we could see the reason this was about, there were many losses, heavy losses in Bomber Command, and the war was at a very positive time, but after a very brief leave in London we were sent on operational, to operational training units, where we crewed up, and we were given a welcome by the commanding officer at our training station, and told that we would be given two or three days to crew-0p by choice [coughs]. The British had learned, I think from experience, that you don't allocate bomber crews, you allow them to crew-up as crews themselves. A bomber crew had to be compatible [coughs], and we crewed up.
JB: How did that actually, did you just walk round and meet each other, or-?
HB: Yeah, we did. We just talked around the bar, and chatted in the mess, and in real life, I think, you usually find that like-minded people do group together, and sort themselves out a little. But in our case, the first man I saw there, met, was my old friend Kevin Key, who I'd known at initial training school at Summers in Melbourne, I knew no one else, nor did he know anyone else, but we were delighted to meet, and we said well, whatever happened, we'll be on the same crew, and from there we just gradually melted into er, different groups, and, er, Jim Gillies was the next one that we met. We decided that we'd be a fairly good combination, and we ended up with our six members, crew members, all Australians. We crewed up only with six men for a seven-man crew because in England the flight engineers were all English, and they allocated. But as a crew we then began our training at -. And it was a very busy time, of course, we got into the elementary flying programmes, and finally we moved onto flying in Wellington bombers, training. The Wellington had been a front-line bomber at the beginning of the war, it was a twin-engined, quite serviceable, old aircraft. And it was still being used a little bit in coastal patrols and such things, but its major usage was in training bomber crews, and it was a twin-engine aircraft. And so we did quite a lot of flying in Wellingtons, and then we migrated to Halifaxes, which was a four-engined bomber, of course, and quite a big step for the pilots, and the crews. And after a course in Halifaxes we moved onto Lancasters, and the Lancaster, of course, was the outstanding heavy bomber of World War Two. It was said that, yes, it was the supreme heavy bomber. Er, it carried a crew of seven. It carried a much heavier bomb load than the American Flying Fortress. We had a crew only of seven, where the American Flying Fortress had a crew of eleven. It was an exciting aircraft. They could take enormous punishment in service. But anyway, we did a course on Lancasters, cross countries, and under all sorts of conditions and situations, until the time came that we were proficient, and we were allocated to a squadron. And we were fortunate we felt, we were sent to 153 Squadron at Scampton, which was a very famous squadron, not far out of Lincoln city. It had become famous in the fact that the Dambuster crews trained there, in fact they took off for the bomb raids from Scampton. It was the squadron where Guy Gibson did his flying. And it was a very interesting place, and a very comfortable billet, and we were very happy to go there. And we flew our first operation from there, and in fact we flew four operations from Scampton. And then we were told that we were being posted to 150 Squadron at Hemswell. Hemswell was a new squadron at a new wartime 'drome. A little bit further away from Lincoln. And we were a bit sad, of course, leaving the comforting billets that we'd become used to at Scampton, but we soon got used to 150 Squadron at Hemswell. The amenities weren't quite as comfortable, perhaps, but we joined in Hemswell a mixed body of young flyers. We were the only full Australian crew flying there. There were odd Australians in mixed crews, but there were Canadians, there were some Canadians, incidentally the Canadians and the Australians seemed to have a great rapport, they seemed to fall into step very easily. Our closest companions were Canadians, but there were British, and there were Canadians, and there were some, a few, New Zealanders. There were two squadrons at Hemswell, 170 Squadron and 150 Squadron. We [pause] we settled, we settled into flight from Hemswell, it was some distance back into Lincoln, of course, but any time we had free we drove back in to Lincoln for our relaxation. Hemswell was surrounded by farming land, very attractive farming land, but there was no township, or anything of that nature, there. From then on it was a matter of routine, the bombing missions all over Germany. Intermittently we were given leave, they were, the Air Force was, very generous, I believe, in its allocation of leave to aircrews, and we, we used to get well away from London and relax in those periods when we were given leave. We would go north to Scotland, or into the Lakes District in England, and generally enjoy and relax very well. But it was always sad, we found, coming back to the squadron after having been on leave because inevitably we found vacant places. And you even felt a little bit guilty [pause] that you'd been away while these boys had gone.
JB: Do you want me to stop it a minute?
HB: [Coughs]
JB: Sorry mate.
HB: That's alright.
JB: Um, yeah, let’s stop it and think. [Rustles and beep]. And away you go.
HB: When we arrived at the squadron, our crew was assigned to a brand new Lancaster. Her code number was PB 853 PB, and she was affectionately known as P-Peter. The ground crew painted a huge bee dressed in Australian battledress, and sitting astride a bomb, on the side of the fuselage. During the period we flew her, all of her engines were replaced, and many of her panels were patched due to flak damage. When flying on operations we carried escape aids to help if we had to bail out in neutral countryside with a chance of escape to the neutral country. It was a flat box, plastic box [pause] we wore inside our battledress, and contained a beautiful silk map of Europe, some German money, some phrases cards, in several languages, and some vitamin pills, for-, and also some pills for purifying water, a razor, and many little things likely to be useful. Each member of a bomber crew carried a secret compass. There were several kinds of these, my little compass was in the base of a, of a collar stud. When I became a prisoner of the Germans I was interrogated twice, once by the Luftwaffe, and once by civilians. They removed everything I had, but did not find my little compass, and I still have it. The Royal Air Force flew mostly at night. Our crew flew twenty nine operations before we were shot down. Twenty four of them were at night, and five were in daylight. Because we usually flew at night, high altitude we had [sneezes], we had to wear oxygen masks, and electric inner suits for the gunners, because in those days we did not have pressurised aircraft, and it was very cold. Flying could be up to ten hours, depending on the location of the target. We were briefed for our twenty ninth operation one morning to bomb synthetic oil refineries at Harpennig, near Dortmund in the Ruhr. The Ruhr is the industrial centre of Germany where most of the heavy steel industry is, is located, including the mighty Krupps armament works. It was known to bomber crews as Happy Valley, we had been to the Ruhr cities a number of times, and had always found them heavily defended. At four o’clock in the afternoon we were over the city, and the oil refineries underneath us. After seeing the target map on the brief, briefing room wall that morning, I believed that without being complacent we were quietly optimistic that we would complete our tour of thirty operations. There was only one more to go after this. We had survived twenty eight arduous operations, all of them on German targets. We were the senior crew on the squadron, with a reputation for reliability and efficiency. At four o’clock in the afternoon we were indeed over the city, flying at eighteen thousand feet. We were in the midst of a heavy anti-aircraft barrage, with flak bursting from fifteen thousand to twenty thousand feet. The target was clearly visible, not only from the target indicators, but from the smoke of exploding bombs. As we turned into our bombing run there was a target, there was a target, when we [long pause]. You right?
JB: Yeah!
HB: As we turned into our bombing run there was a great explosion, and the aircraft began to shudder violently. Flak bursting under us had put two of our engines on fire. We were out of control and going into a steep descent. When the order was given to abandon the aircraft the last words we heard from Phil were, 'I can't hold her any more'. Jim Gillies and I believe that Jim Griffin was killed by the flak. His body was found, thrown clear of the aircraft, in the woods some kilometres from the target area. There was no panic, and six of the seven of us were able to bail out. I was the last to leave. My turret hydraulics were supplied from one of the engines that was on fire, and it had stopped with the guns on the beam. With no hydraulics I had to manually wind the turret to the fore and aft position to get out of it. This operation took several seconds. As I disconnected my oxygen and intercom lead the aircraft began to lurch violently from side to side. I was having great difficulty leaving the turret, and suddenly found myself on the floor of the fuselage below. I was able to clip my parachute onto my harness before I realised that my left femur was broken up near the hip. I crawled upwards to the door and rolled out, counted to three, and pulled my rip cord. There was a sudden jolt and I found myself suspended at about sixteen thousand feet. My first reaction was of relief. The enormity of the situation took a moment to sink in. [Pause.] There were aircraft passing high above me with flak bursting under them, and I began to feel an incredible sense of isolation and loneliness as I watched those Lancasters disappearing into the distance, going home to England. As I descended in the parachute I had time to think of many things. I thought about the dreaded telegram my father would receive from the Air Ministry, advising them that we were missing. I remember the, I remember the RAF issue Smith and Wesson revolver I had underneath my Mae West. I realised it would be a liability in the situation that I was about to face, and I pulled it out and let it drop. The last few hundred feet arrived too soon. I could see I was drifting over a building [pause] and as I landed, further down under the cabbages I could see people coming. They were armed with shovels and garden tools. They hesitated for a moment, and then rushed over to me, and my flying boots were pulled off. Women were squabbling over my parachute silk, and others were trying to remove my harness in order to have my flying clothes. I could not move because they were standing on my hands, stretched above my head. I couldn’t see clearly because mud was running into my eyes. I was not having a very good time when an old soldier in uniform with a sub-machine gun moved through the crowd. He cocked his weapon, and they fell back. He then stood over me, undoubtedly saving my life. Another armed old soldier then arrived, pushing a large wheelbarrow with two wheels on the front. These soldiers were Volkssturm, or Home Guard. The first old fellow loaded me onto this conveyance, and then with the first of them walking in front with his weapon, clearing a pathway, the other pushed me over the cobblestones, and I was cursed and spat upon by the justifiably irate citizens as we approached a tin building which appeared to be a military barracks. I was deposited upon a concrete floor within this building, and as they left me I thanked these two old soldiers. They had saved my life, though I never saw them again.
JB: No. Just my wife [pause]. No, you're all right. Keep, still going. [Pause.]
HB: Lying on my back, with nothing under my head, I tried not to make the slightest movement because the tortured thigh was swelling rapidly, no doubt due to having been twisted about so much during the rough handling I had received in the vegetable field. Sometime during the evening I was interrogated by some military people, with a Luftwaffe officer in charge. He had an RAAF, rather, an RAF aircrew identification card with him, and he showed me those many identification cards, from obviously RAF personnel who had been shot down in the region [pause]. He, he went through these with me, and I showed no recognition, even though I saw Jim Gillies, our bomb aimer, I saw his card come up. Throughout the night [pause] a light in the ceiling above my head was something to focus on, and in a sense it gave me some company. I was very cold, and my leg was swollen, swelling enormously, and in the morning my trouser leg was stretched to the limit. At this time a soldier came in to me with a plate of porridge, before depositing it on the concrete beside me he put it to his mouth drinking the liquid from it [pause]. Later in the morning a rough splint was strapped over my leg. I was put on a stretcher and moved to a small prison cell. I had not had time to become fully acquainted with this [telephone rings] -
JB: - you go.
HB: And later in the morning a rough splint was strapped over my leg, and I was put on a stretcher and moved into a small prison cell. I had not had time to become fully acquainted with this superior accommodation, when the door opened, and guards escorting Jim Gillies arrived. We chose not to recognise each other, but I am sure that our body language would have indicated the relief we felt in knowing that the other was alive. Jim was wearing a paper bandage around his head, testimony of his inhospitable reception, er, on landing. The following morning Jim and I were taken to an open truck. There was no seating for a group of female soldiers and the two armed guards escorting us. We travelled through Dortmund into the countryside where we stopped to pick up the body of an RAF fellow from a field. His parachute had not opened, and he was probably blown out of an exploding aircraft. This incident caused Jim and me to be a little uneasy. The truck had stopped at the side of the road, and two, the two guards guarding us jumped out, ordering Jim to follow. He was then given a stretcher to carry, and the three of them marched out across a field, and from my position on the floor I soon lost sight of them. However, I heard no gunshot, and was relieved soon, later, to see them return with Jim and one of the guards carrying the stretcher. And as we continued our journey, Jim, who was very tired, sat on the body after saying, 'I'm sure he wouldn't mind'. We were then able to confer freely together. The road was in very poor condition, and I was relieved when we arrived at a Luftwaffe fighter base where Jim Gillies was placed in cells with a number of Canadian and American POWs. The following day Jim Gillies and the other airmen was moved by train and truck through Germany ending up at Fallingbostel POW camp. After a night in a cell alone, I was taken some distance to a place called Kirchlinde, a large town. The hospital was on three levels, and I was placed on the top storey. Two American soldiers, and a blind English soldier, and I, were the only English-speaking prisoners. The few orderlies were French, and the main function of the establishment seemed to be the patching up of injured Russian prisoners of war from the work parties that we could see filling in bomb craters and clearing roads. After so much time without any medical attention whatsoever I was given some surgery at this place. Since breaking my femur the muscles of my leg had contracted and the broken ends of the bones were overlapping, and my leg was shortened and not very straight. The doctor put on [unclear] my shin bone and attempted some traction, but after so much delay it was futile. It turned out that we were being held in what was to become known as the Ruhr Pocket, where the German, where a German army refused to surrender. There were, we were under constant attack from the RAF bombing throughout the region at night, and a tactical air force in daytime. The Germans had established an anti-aircraft battery quite close to the factory, and whenever the air raid siren began to moan, we would brace ourselves for the sound of the guns as they sent of a barrage of flak. Inevitably, eventually it happened, and the second floor, storey, was also replaced, er reduced to rubble and by the cannon fire. Again I was moved downstairs into what still remained of the building. By this time I was the only prisoner still confined to a bed. I remember an SS soldier coming into the ward, where I remained alone. He had a Luger in his hand, and I was given the strong impression that he would have liked to use it. I was after all a considerable inconvenience. I was relieved when he left after making his inspection. By this time most of the Russians had disappeared, street fighting had been going on around for some time, and eventually the first floor [pause] became shattered. And after a period the whole of the building was untenable, and we were moved down to the cellars underneath. I lost sign, I lost sight of the English soldier, the blind English soldier, and I think he could not have survived. I was lying on a concrete floor with a very, with a very young soldier, German soldier on my left. He was from a signal unit and had been wounded in the street fighting. He spoke very good English and we began to talk. He told me about his work in the army and said that he'd often heard English pilots on his listening set, talking and swearing at each other. He quoted 'tally-ho' [pause]. He, he spoke very good English, and his name was Helmut Liever, and he'd grown up in the confines of Hitler Youth Movement, where every aspect of life was regimented. He told me that the German people were very afraid of Royal Air Force bombing, especially at night. He said that he had received, he told me that he had relatives who had survived the classic raid on Dresden. He went on to describe in detail the sequences of the operation. I did not tell him I had seen it all from twenty thousand feet. In contract, in contrast to Helmut Liever on my right there was a German soldier who had a dagger that, that he pulled out several times in a threatening manner. Fortunately he was out of reach. Eventually the two Americans and I experienced a dramatic change in our situation. Four heavily-armed American soldiers burst into our cellar at about midday. They expected to find more than the three of us. It was a wonderful reunion for the two Americans. When they found out that I was an Australian airman they could not have been more supportive. They told us, however, that we couldn't be taken away for some time, as there was street fighting going on outside. Before leaving they left some cigarettes and a long black bottle of very old wine, and asked if, they came to ask if there was anything they could do for me. And I said, 'well, that old German with the dagger is annoying me, get that dagger', which they did, and I still have it with me. Early in the evening a jeep arrived for us. I was strapped across the bonnet on a stretcher. A padre sat beside me, steadying me on the, and holding a rifle with a Red Cross flag tied to the barrel. It was a rough ride, dodging bomb craters and wrecked vehicles and fallen cables. Before leaving the cellar, I quietly passed some cigarettes to Helmut Liever. We travelled through what seemed a considerable distance until we left the city and arrived at an American army field hospital. It was surrounded by wheat fields, and it was a mobile unit under canvas. I was something of a curiosity with the nursing staff. Most of them were female and knew very little about Australia. They could not be enough, do enough for me, and were very kind. I was told my femur should be re-broken and reset in England. They enveloped my knee in plaster for the trip to come home. Er, could you switch it off for a minute?
LB: Yeah.
HB: I just [unclear] it's getting pretty dreary now, what would like-
LB: I think just talk about the crew, what about when-
HB: Ah, yes.
LB: Um, hang on, hang on, hang on. Er pause, we can do that one [noise]. Um, Harvey, what can you tell me about your crew, or your team?
HB: Er, I would do that with great pleasure, er, in recollections of our team, and our [coughs], Philip Henry Morris was an accomplished pilot, trained in Canada, and we both looked forward to a life in farming after the war. In September 1944 we decided to buy a car. We found one that suited us, a Riley Nine, in Gainsborough. It was a very, in very good condition except that the tyres were very bad, and were difficult to attain. But I drove it back to the station, and whenever we had a day off, I proceeded to teach Phil, Phil to drive. It was an amazing fact that this man who had flown three types of heavy bombers, and many light aircraft, had never learned to drive a motor car. [Pause.] After a great deal of changing and slipping and gear grinding, we were able to go back to Gainsborough and secure his licence. When we arrived back to 150 Squadron at Hemswell, our ground crew took over the maintenance of the car. For special occasions we would let them have it out for a night. In a miraculous manner the worn and worn-out tyres that we couldn't replace, were replaced with new ones, and whenever we drove out of the station, there would be petrol in the tank. John Clement Jay Davis, the flight engineer, was English, of course, er, was assigned to us after OTU, and flew with us in training, and [pause] Jo Davis was a young Londoner, who grew up in Surbiton. He bonded with us very quickly. He was capable, courageous, and always cheerful. He was delighted to be part of an Australian crew, and often said that he would be emigrating to Australia after the war. One of his sayings after a pint or two in the sergeants’ mess was, 'we are not here today, and gone tomorrow, we are here today, and gone tonight'. Kevin Anthony Key came from Melbourne. He and I were old friends from Initial Training School at Summers, and were delighted to come together on Operational Training Unit at Lichfield. He was a [pause] he was an inveterate gambler, and a very successful gambler. I remember one, him one evening pushing a large Royal Enfield motor bike back to the billet, that he'd just won from Canadians, playing cards [pause]. He was an excellent navigator, and he kept us on track during all those black nights over Germany. Robert Lockyear Masters was a schoolteacher prior to enlistment as a wireless operator in Australia. He grew up in Tumut in New South Wales, and shared our interests in the appearance and style of a little old pubs and churches we found whenever we were on leave, in England. A stained glass window in the Tumut Anglican church commemorates his life and service to his country. James Noel Griffin, our rear gunner, was a Queenslander from Brisbane. Jim was more of a solo person when going on leave. A very handsome young airman, he seemed to have the ability to attract the girl, a girl at every [unclear] awaiting leave. James Henry Gillies, our bomb aimer, was a large amiable young man who had played rugby union after leaving school. He had trained as a bomb aimer in Canada. As the two surviving members of our crew of seven, Jim and I shared some extreme experiences, and after all these years we remained very close bond. He was, he was a retired dentist, living in Sydney with his wife Bettina, not far from numerous adoring grandchildren. Our ground crew were very important to us. The ground crew worked around the clock, often under the stress of extreme cold, to keep the aircraft flying. They were the engine mechanics, who served our engines. They were the electricians, who looked after our electrical systems. They were the armourers who loaded our bomb bays, and checked our turrets and machine guns. They were the WAAF drivers, who met us when we landed, day or night to take us to headquarters. All these people were a part of our team. They were always cheerful, and they would do anything for us. The aircrew, I will repeat their names: Phil Morris, pilot, from Sydney, New South Wales; Kevin Key, navigator, from Melbourne, Victoria; Joe Davis, flight engineer, from London, United Kingdom; Bob Masters, wireless operator, from Tumut, New South Wales; Jim Gillies, bomb aimer, from Sydney, New South Wales; Harvey Bawden, mid upper gunner, from Pyramid Hill, Victoria; Jim Griffin, rear gunner, from Brisbane, Queensland. Phil Morris, Kevin Key, John Davis, Bob Masters and Jim Griffin are buried in a war cemetery in the Reichswald Forest, near Kleve in Germany. A stone monument at the entrance to this cemetery carries this inscription 'The land on which this cemetery stands is the gift of the German people, who are [pause] for the perpetual resting place for the sailors, soldiers and airmen who are honoured here'. Harvey Bawden, Bendigo.
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ABawdenHH160810
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Interview with Harvey Hayward Bawden
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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01:05:55 audio recording
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John Bowden
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2016-08-10
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Harvey Bawden, from Bendigo, Victoria, Australia, volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force in 1942 at the age of eighteen. After initial training school and assessment as an air gunner, he was shipped to England via the United States. After crewing up and training on heavy bombers, his first posting was to 153 Squadron at RAF Scampton, from where he flew four operations. He was then posted to 150 Squadron at RAF Hemswell. On their 29th operation, they were hit by flak. Bawden’s leg was broken before he bailed out, and he describes the experience of bailing out, interrogation and treatment in a military hospital in some detail. Only he and one other crew member survived. He was rescued by advancing American forces clearing the Ruhr Pocket. Bawden pays tribute to his fellow crew members, buried in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, and the ground crew who supported them.
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Peter Adams
Mal Prissick
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Victoria--Bendigo
California--San Francisco
United States
Victoria
California
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
150 Squadron
153 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
final resting place
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Lancaster
mechanics engine
memorial
nose art
prisoner of war
RAF Hemswell
RAF Scampton
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/624/8894/APearsonL150531.1.mp3
2e81594e171226151401afeeccd944e1
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Pearson, Leslie Robert
L R Pearson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Pearson, LP
Description
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Six items. An oral history interview with Leslie Pearson (d. 2018, 1397838 Royal Air Force), a photograph and service material. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 153 Squadron from RAF Scampton.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Leslie Pearson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
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2015-05-31
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SB: This is Shelia Bibb, interviewing Les Pearson on the thirtieth of May 2015 at his home at Lowestoft. Les –
LP: Yep.
SB: Before we start talking too much about this, can you give me a little bit of background about yourself. Where you were born, something about your family?
LP: Yes, I was an only child, I was born in East London, I have, my father was a chief shaftsman [?] master engineer. I went to Westham Grammar School, I started an apprenticeship in general mechanical engineering and then I joined the Air Force. This will be what, about 1942 when I joined them, having been through the London bombing and getting some sort of feeling about wars [emphasis] and things in general, and felt that I had to do something about it.
SB: Okay, so, when you decided to join, did you go straight to the Air Force?
LP: Oh yes, yes.
SB: Okay.
LP: Yes, I, as I say, I started an apprenticeship as a general mechanical engineer and as such I was in a reserved occupation. After the three years was up, because they concentrated at wartime, I joined the Air Force in London. I went along and joined in London, and volunteered for aircrew [emphasis], ‘cause that was the [laughs] only branch that would accept me as a reserved occupation.
SB: So where did you report?
LP: Oh my lord [pause]. I don’t, do you know I don’t really remember the name and address of where I went. It was head, sort of a head office in London, a recruit, a definite recruiting centre in London. I don’t recall [laughs] its address as such though, don’t recall it.
SB: Where did they send you?
LP: Initially to St John’s Wood, which was Air ACRC, Air Crew Receiving Centre, and they sort of prepared us for life in the Air Force. We had loads of injections and things like that, but basically they set us up, started our life in the Air Force.
SB: And what sort of training did you get?
LP: First class [laughs]. Let’s try and think this one through [pause]. I think the first one I can recall was being sent to Ludlow [emphasis], on a general toughening up course, sorting out and, you know, yes from Ludlow that was the start, right, yep.
SB: And how long did your training last?
LP: The – oh the whole training was over a year [emphasis]. I’m trying, I’m trying, you know, I’m trying to recall the early parts of this. Erm, we did, what was it, a trip to Brough in East Yorkshire on Tiger Moths, where we were given a day to learn to fly, and those of us who qualified managed to get solo in a day. We then went on to ITW, Initial Training Wing, did mine at Scarborough, which, I’m having to rack my brains on this one a little bit, could of done with notice I bet [SB laughs] but there you are, from ITW, that’s right yes, we went on a holding course in Manchester, and then from Manchester we went to Canada, Canada where we carried on with the pilots course which I’d joined in on. We were flying Cornells there, and then the information came back that there was a surplus [emphasis] of pilots, that the system was working too well [emphasis], so quickly we were [unclear] at something else and we went “ooh, let’s go as a bomb aimer, that’s as good as anything.” Did the bomb aimer’s course no trouble at all. Back to the UK. They had us at, just outside Ludlow, I think it was Clanberick [?] where there were, there was an aerodrome there, and they put us there and they said “well look, you’re a mixed bag but you’ve done an awful lot of the training, we’re going to finish off your navigation course,” which they duly completed. From there, now then, I can’t recall the actual or can’t remember [emphasis] the names of the actual stations, but went initially to I think it was an AFU, Advanced Flying Unit, where we were crewed up. The system there was that the pilot had a wander round and looked at various people and said “you look alright, come and join my crew.” It was very informal, very casual but it worked very [emphasis] well. As a crew we then went on to operational training – I think I skipped something there but it doesn’t really matter. Operational training unit, initially on Wellingtons and then on I think it was Stirlings, and finally on Lancasters. At this stage we were doing various trips – it was an operational training unit as such and we were expected to do various operational training exercises [emphasis] which we did. Eventually we went on to RAF Scampton to 153, where we joined 153 Squadron, which was operational, fully [emphasis] operational. At the end of the war we were then posted to Special Duties. They decided that the squadron as such was of a high standard and we were given the flying test trials on H2S mark four. They gave us six months to do it in and that was done at twenty-thousand feet. Along the line, half way through this exercise, 153 Squadron was disbanded [emphasis] and so they kept us together and transferred us over to Binbrook to do, to be attached [emphasis] to 12 Squadron. I stayed with 12 Squadron right until the end, we finished the exercise we were on there, that was a success and then we would do various bits and pieces afterwards. They didn’t know what to do with us really, disposing of certain bombs out into the North Sea and that sort of nature. I think that just about sums up my life in the Air Force. There’s probably quite a few bits missing but [laughs] I don’t recall [emphasis] it all at this stages now.
SB: Okay let’s –
LP: It was a long time ago.
SB: It was indeed and that was a very good overview. Can we now go back to the war itself, and can you tell me a little bit about your experiences there, some of the operations you took part in?
LP: Mm, they weren’t very exciting really. It was just a job –
SB: Mhm.
LP: We were, I wouldn’t know where to start – whether we were going to Keele and bombing a battleship there, went to Berchtesgaden, which was Hitler’s home, bombing that one, or a little place called Paulson [?] which made ball bearings. That I suppose would sum it up generally, yes, yeah, yeah.
SB: So you can you remember how many operations you flew?
LP: Oh yes. We did six out of Scampton, yes. There was another thirteen variables on training command where they prepared us for full operation duty.
SB: So, can you tell me a little bit about that it was like when you were on one of these operations? What was it like beforehand, during the flight? How did you feel?
LP: To start off with, we were a crew, that was the whole set up of the Air Force, that we went around in crews [emphasis]. We worked together, we played together and we had confidence in each other. We knew exactly [emphasis] what we were doing and if somebody wasn’t well or up to it we knew exactly and that was taken care of. Once we knew we were on operations that day, then everything else stood down and we got prepared for it. There was the briefing, preparation, navigation side of it was drawing up the various routes and things, the bombing side of it was checking the bomb load at the bombers, that the ground staff, who we had every confidence in incidentally, had done a good job, it was a matter of preparations for the actual operation itself. We had, I think it was a late flying supper, that’s a bit hairy that one, I’m sure we had something to eat [emphasis] before we went. Once we were on route well that was it. Everybody had got a job to do. We worked as a team [emphasis] once again, we had a straight navigator in the crew as well as myself, and I assisted him. I spent my time out in the nose map reading, highlighting various pieces, information back to the navigator. That more or less sums up the operation. I mean once we were on target I took over control of the plane, gave instructions to the pilot, “left-left, right-right steady, hold it, bomb’s gone. That’s it, let’s go home.” And the navigator would take over, give the pilot the course to fly and off we went. It – we were pretty well occupied. Your Lancaster was a cold [emphasis] aeroplane, a noisy [emphasis] aeroplane, but one we had every confidence in, so you know. It was just a job and we just did it [emphasis], you know.
SB: Mm.
LP: When we got back, we landed, debriefing, and then after debriefing there was night flying supper, usually eggs and bacon and things like that, and off we went.
SB: As a bomb aimer did you need any particular preparation before you went on one of these?
LP: The only preparation I would have would be to check the bomb load, which was the ground crew had attached to the aeroplane, that it was the correct load, because weight was of paramount importance, for the engineers to be able to maintain the aircraft to its height and it wouldn’t run out of petrol and things like that.
SB: Yep. So did you ever have any problems with the Germans?
LP: No, no.
SB: No, clean run.
LP: No, everything was, as far as we were concerned went according to plan. The loading was correct, the aircraft was fully serviceable and that was it. It got a, once we were over Germany it got a bit hectic from time to time, but we took various evasive action [emphasis] and things of that nature and we got there and back alright.
SB: Good. So you had those operational runs during the war. Once the war was over I gather you stayed on –
LP: Oh yes.
SB: Still doing other tasks.
LP: Yes.
SB: When did you finally come out of the Air Force?
LP: E [pause] forty-six, forty-six, yeah –
SB: Okay.
LP: Forty-six yeah, yep. Yep.
SB: Did you miss it?
LP: Initially yes [emphasis], because it was a family. As I said, you live together, you play together, that was it, your life was as a crew [emphasis], and you each had got every confidence in the other. So yes, initially I did miss it, yes.
SB: Okay. Did you keep in touch with these members of your family? [Laughs]
LP: Yes. I forget, what was the date of the first one, forty-six, forty-seven, forty-six, year. 1946 we had a sort of farewell party in Grimsby and we decided that it was all over and we got to make a fresh start, and we’d met once a year ever since. Last one was what, about a fortnight ago.
SB: And are you all still there [emphasis]?
LP: Yes [emphasis], yes. There was only a handful of us left fully active, one, two, three, I can give you four names of them that are fully active, the rest have fallen, either fallen by the wayside, or they’re not very well.
SB: Mm. Good record though [both laugh]. Okay so, let’s get back to thinking about your experiences. Would you change anything?
LP: I don’t think [emphasis] so. As far as we were concerned it was a success definitely.
SB: Hmm.
LP: The initial training scheme PNB, that was pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, was a hundred-and-one success. It was Canada, America, Africa, I think they were the main three areas where trainee, cadet aircrew were sent to learn to either fly or navigate or bomb. That was the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, PNB system. That was a hundred – that worked almost too well. As I say, there was a, at one stage there was a success, an excess of pilots.
SB: Okay. So are there any other personal details, things that you were involved in?
LP: [Pause] not that I can think of.
SB: Set any records at all?
LP: We broke the station height record with a Wellington when we were on training command. We got a bit high there, I think we got up to about twenty-six-thousand feet and everything froze up [SB laughs], but apart from that [laughs] not really. We worked hard, we played hard. We got attacked a couple of time whilst on ops. But, took various evasive actions, but the gunners worked more than well but. No, no. I wouldn’t say much about it really.
SB: Okay. Now you mentioned Berchtesgaden –
LP: Yep.
SB: Which is an interesting target. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
LP: That was a long one. Oh lord, from memory I think it took about fourteen hours. I think we had – the bomb load had to be reduced slightly to account for excess fluid, petrol to normal. We went out with pathfinder. As you know, in the Air Force we all flew in what was known as a gaggle [emphasis]. In other words we all [emphasis] made our own [emphasis] way there, regardless of who was flying alongside you. The Americans flew in formation with a master navigator, master this, master that, and they just kept in formation. We didn’t, we flew individually [emphasis]. We were, actually we were running parallel to pathfinder. They were about ten miles off track, but still parallel to us. Consequently, there was a bit of confusion on the target and we went round again so that we had the correct heading to bomb on. Think that was about the only confusion there, but it all, it sorted itself out. We all knew exactly [emphasis] what to do, we did it. Coming back [emphasis] we were well on the way home by this time, and I said to the skipper, “can I give Dave a break?” and he said “yes of course.” Dave being our rear gunner who’d been sat out in the turret, miles from anybody for quite a few hours, so we brought him back to life [SB laughs] and I sat out in the turret for a couple of hours to see he we was alright until we were nearly home, and we all resumed normal flying positions. We landed safely and that was it.
SB: So you accomplished it alright?
LP: Oh yeah. Yes, yeah.
SB: Good, okay. Were you married when you joined up?
LP: Not in the Air Force no.
SB: Right.
LP: That was just one thing, my wife – we were associates together but not married, and the thought was “we don’t get married until the war’s over because it would be wrong.”
SB: Mhm.
LP: Really, so. When the war finished, well then we were able to get married, and we were living out in the village of Binbrook. We had a little cottage there, and we lived in Binbrook [emphasis].
SB: And during the war, where was your wife to be? Was she –
LP: Ah.
SB: In London, or?
LP: She was in East [emphasis] London yes, Plaistow again –
SB: Mhm.
LP: And they were bombed, and they lost their house and everything that went with it. It’s remotely [emphasis] possible that I helped to evacuate them, because at that stage I was working with the local ARP, air raid precaution thing, and I was one of the few people who could drive [emphasis] and we, we was just evacuating people out, driving the three tonne [unclear] flat-packed truck of all things [SB laughs]. Just pile these people onboard and got them, got them out of London, into Epping Forest. So it’s possible [emphasis], it’s not, we can never prove this one that I actually evacuated my wife and her family –
SB: Mhm.
LP: From Plaistow, but well they lost everything.
SB: Hmm. Okay, so let’s move onto after the war –
LP: Mhm.
SB: For a little while. You left the RAF in forty-six –
LP: Mhm.
SB: What did you do at that point?
LP: Purely as a stop cap [?], we were living down in the village and we were thinking “oh, what do we do now?” I didn’t really [emphasis] want to go back into London and mechanical engineering, so we ran the village taxi [emphasis]. The garage had got a licence for a taxi and I, initially I worked with him, and after about a year or so, I bought the licence off him and I ran the thing, I [unclear] on my own. My wife was assistant, she took all the phone calls, and that was our life.
SB: Do you think you would have done something like that if you hadn’t had the RAF experience?
LP: Ooh no [emphasis], no. I never even thought about that. This was purely an extension of our life in the Air Force, because by this time, living out in the village, my wife had got to know a load of my colleagues in the Air Force, we were still one big family [emphasis] and the silly sort of thing which would happen, was when they were on a PT run or something like that, they would run down into the village, through the back door of our house [laughs] and sit in there and say “can you make us a cup of tea?” Or “can you boil us an egg?” It was part of our life extended. Is that – there you go.
SB: Do you think the war impacted your life in any other way?
LP: [Deep breath followed by long pause.] That’s a, that’s a difficult question to answer. I just took life as it was [emphasis] in those days. I mean, I hadn’t gone into life with any fixed ideas of what I wanted to do [emphasis], where I wanted to go, be [pause]. I think the Royal Air Force completed my education [emphasis], no doubts on that. But other than that there’s not a lot I can say in that respect I don’t – no, ‘cause I never really thought about it.
SB: Okay. I’m now going to ask another question, which I don’t know what it means, but too many carrots.
LP: [Laughs.] Oh dear me [SB laughs]. How right you are there [laughs], yes. For many moons after leaving the Air Force, I couldn’t look a carrot in the eye [SB laughs]. It was purely a story which was put out to cover our radar system which were working very well and we didn’t want the Germans to know about it, so they said they said that they discovered that by feeding us up with an excess of carrots [emphasis], as such, it gave us extra eyesight [emphasis] which enabled us to see those [?] things which they couldn’t see. It was purely a story [laughs], it wasn’t fact. But as I say, we were dosed up with carrots left, right and centre, even though we didn’t believe it ourselves. But there you are.
SB: Right, let’s move back again to after the war. Are you the only two daughters?
LP: No –
Other: No there’s five of us.
LP: There were five children altogether.
SB: Mhm.
LP: We, when we were in Binbrook, my wife became pregnant there, and we thought “now, we’ve got to, we’re not going to live in a little village for the rest of our lives, we’ve got to do [emphasis] something,” you know. We had friends who were living down in Torquay at the time, and he, we made contact with them and he said “look, I can get hold of you a taxi licence down here to start with,” but he said “there’s bags of scope you can tow a caravan and things like that, bags of scope. Come down here and we’ll sort you out” which we did, and we developed quite a good caravan towing business [emphasis] believe it or not. I managed to get established with a company there who got the rights for just about every caravan manufacturer [laughs] in the world, and everything which was sold in Devon and Cornwall went through his books, and I was involved in [laughs] delivering an awful lot of these caravans. That took quite a few years that. His company changed hands and a company which had got offices, well offices, a garage and business in North London, they took over there, and after a time, I forget the number of years, wasn’t very long, a year or so, the London office contacted me and said “look, there’s a job for you here, we want someone as a garage manager, we’re doing car and caravan sales and maintenance and all the rest of it, you got all the appearance, all the qualifications, come up here and see what we can do,” which we did. So we sold up down in Devon, moved up to Waltham Cross [emphasis] in North London. [Pause] and –
SB: At what point did you come to Lowestoft?
LP: Sorry?
SB: What point did you come to Lowestoft?
LP: Oooh, now then, we stayed, worked at that garage, I think for about three years, could have been longer, time’s difficult to work, I’d have to research that now. During that time I learned to be a driving instructor as part of the set up of the garage, it was an asset to the garage, so I qualified as a driving instructor. Did that for a spell purely as a break, and then Rumbellows is a company you may have heard of, formally owned by Thornley Electrical [?] were just setting up a business, they got lots of people who were in debt to the Thorn Organisation, and they didn’t just want to close it down and just lose it, they took over the various businesses [?] and ran them, and I joined Rumbellows then, and I finished up as senior buyer for them, we got over five-hundred branches. We were the biggest company, business in the country and I actually took an early retirement from them. But this time we’d been down to the Isle of Wight a couple of times, really [emphasis] liked it down there and decided we were going to move down to the Isle of Wight while I was still young enough to do something about it. And we were negotiating to buy a bed and breakfast house [emphasis], quite a large house, with a couple of taxis and a bus, a minibus, so I took my PSP licence as a bus driver, and somebody had to, and we were on the points of moving down there when problems developed with the roof of the property. We couldn’t negotiate with the owner, he was adamant there was nothing wrong with the roof. Our surveyor had said “don’t touch it with a barge pole” [laughs] “you won’t get a mortgage or anything on it.” So we’d already sold our house in North London, so my wife’s sister was living here in Lowestoft, said “why don’t you come here, it’s a nice place to live and it’s cheap,” which we did.
SB: Hmm. So you certainly took off in a different direction after the war.
LP: Oh lord yes.
SB: Hmm.
LP: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
LP: Yes.
SB: Okay, so, I’d like to throw in a quick question to you two now, if I can. You’ve mentioned your association with 153 Squadron. Have you always been involved with your dad’s role in the war, or has it affected you –
Other 1:No –
Other 2: I think he’s always had acquaintances –
O1: Yeah –
O2: He’s always – his friends have been friends that you’ve had since you were in the RAF.
O1: Hmm. Always been aware of it.
O2: Hmm.
O1: It’s been something that has been a constant particularly with the –
LP It’s sort of –
O1: The annual reunion made it a –
LP: It gradually built up along the line, I mean, this has gone on for seventy years [laughs] now, which is a long time. Initially we used to meet up at the Grand Hotel in Lincoln, that went on. As time went by, I think it was with Bill, your husband, where it was a matter of getting somebody who would come up with me, and drive and things like that, I think that possibly started it.
O2: But you’ve never spoken of your emotions during the war, you’ve just seen it as a [emphasis] job, you went out and you did it and –
LP: Oh it was a job to do, I mean, we – don’t forget I was in London during the bombing, rescuing, or, not rescuing [emphasis], recovering my wife’s family and many [emphasis] other families, simply driving them out Epping Forest and getting them somewhere safe [emphasis]. I saw the damage, I remember one time I cycled from Eastham, East London where we living to Euston Road in North London to tell them that I couldn’t get into work today because the place had been bombed. I just thought I had to do [emphasis] something specific [emphasis], and although we were doing specialist work where we in the engineering side, we were on research of plastics and all that sort of thing, but I wanted to do something more. Hence basically I wanted to be a pilot [emphasis] and shoot them down. But it developed from I didn’t get into Fighter Command I got in Bomber Command instead, which I never regretted [emphasis], because that was a different life altogether.
SB: And did you feel better by doing [emphasis] something –
LP: Oh yes, yes. Yes I –
SB: How did you feel about the Germans?
LP: Quite bitter, because I saw the wanton [?] damage they did to London in the early stages, where there was no reason [emphasis] for what they bombed. It was just random bombing of London as such, and I think I got a bit cross over that, I didn’t like it.
SB: Hmm. [Pause.] Did you ever meet up with any of the flyers from the German [unclear]?
LP: Yes, oddly enough, yes. Many years ago when I was a member of the local Aircrew Association, with a colleague who lived just outside Norwich, we attended one meeting there, and a German pilot came and gave us a talk [emphasis]. He was welcomed, and we got on very [emphasis] well with him, because basically he was part of the family [emphasis]. We were just doing a job and that was it. It wasn’t, I don’t think there was anything personal about it whatsoever.
SB: Do you have any idea how your parents felt about you joining up?
LP: Oooh [pause]. I don’t think – well my mother was obviously very worried [emphasis] about it. My father accepted it, I think they just accepted it. Because it was the sort of thing that went on, families did that sort of in those days, it wasn’t pleasant [emphasis], they didn’t like [emphasis] it for one minute, but I think they accepted it.
SB: Had your father been in the First World War?
LP: No.
SB: No.
LP: No, he was, he was slightly disabled, and as such he wouldn’t have been in the service at all.
SB: Okay, so, any other thoughts at all about that period and how it might have affected your life later on?
LP: [Pause.] All I can think of is that it completed my education, gave me a different outlook on life, which initially might have been quite restricted [pause]. And I suppose really it gave me a wider outlook on life [emphasis], not just do one thing and that’s it, but try other things as well, you know.
SB: And you say you’ve just had your annual reunion?
LP: Yes, yes.
SB: Where was that one held?
LP: That was at the Bentley [emphasis] Hotel. Wonderful story there, we stayed at the Grand Hotel in Lincoln for many, many [emphasis] years, quick guess, fifty years, round figures. And we got to know the staff and the owners there, it, they became part of the personal family because it was Lincoln [emphasis] and they were used to aircrew, and eventually the Grand Hotel as such got involved with health and safety because they were two, originally two hotels side by side, adjoining, and they became one, but they were on slightly different levels, and, well it got involved and they decided that they, it couldn’t run as a hotel anymore and it would have cost too much to bring it up to the necessary standard. So they moved out to the Bentley, they moved out to, they had a place built at the Bentley just outside Lincoln, and we stayed with them. Because mainly the family connections, they’d known us for many years, it was our second home [emphasis] you know almost, to go back there every year, so. Yeah, we recently, couple of weeks ago we had a reunion where we went to the Bentley Hotel, we were due to go to RAF Conningsby on the Saturday morning but the Lancaster had a problem and she caught fire on the starboard outer, not it was port outer, but got home safely, but covered in foam, so it’s, so she’s not flying at the moment. So we had to quickly reassemble [?] what we were going to do, had a chat with the bus driver, who the coaches have always done us proud for many years, and we went to RAF Scampton [emphasis], to the museum where they welcomed us and people came in on days off because it was a Saturday [emphasis] and these places only run five day week now. And from there we went to Scampton Church and met up with the vicar, she was more than pleased to see us I think. We had an organ recital there by one of our members, because by this time we acquired, I think that’s the best way of putting it, lots of honorary members who were part of the family in other words, fathers and sons and daughters, as Valerie is to me, a member of the family. We got something like thirty odd people at the Scampton Church. We’d already been to RAF Scampton, to the museum as I said, yeah we had a dinner there at the pub in Scampton village and then our bus driver took us for a tour round Lincoln, showed us the site of the new Bomber Command Memorial, where it was to be built and all the rest of it, and also the Cathedral to see the grounds, which the people from Holland [emphasis] had set up to commemorate, commemorate Operation Manna, where there, all the flowers were there, that was very nice. Incidentally, that one, the Operation Manna, that was one of those trips that you did that you felt you’d achieved something [emphasis], when instead of dropping bombs and killing people, you dropped food and fed [emphasis] people. That felt good, that was an achievement definitely. Not a lot more I can say really, you need time to rehearse these things and look them all out.
SB: I think you’ve done fairly well so far.
O2: The Bentley Hotel still has the photos of the original 153 Squadron on display in one of their meeting rooms don’t they?
LP: Oh yeah, several bits and pieces, yeah.
SB: Well thank you very much, I’ll stop it at this point.
LP: Mhm.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Leslie Robert Pearson
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Sheila Bibb
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-05-31
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00:47:02 audio recording
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Sound
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APearsonL150531
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Katie Gilbert
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
Description
An account of the resource
Les Pearson was in reserved occupation as an apprentice in general mechanical engineering, but he volunteered as aircrew. He initially trained as a pilot but was remustered as a bomb aimer. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 153 Squadron from RAF Scampton. He describes the crewing up process, the preparations of the crew before an operation and his duties during the flight. He was posted to Special Duties after the war, and describes his family life after the war.
12 Squadron
153 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
crewing up
Lancaster
military living conditions
RAF Binbrook
RAF Scampton
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/851/10847/AHambrookHJ180109.2.mp3
15e7d30c5d0a426e2cfb291679011120
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hambrook, Harry
Harold John Hambrook
H J Hambrook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Harry Hambrook (1925 - 2021, 1890683 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 166 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hambrook, HJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Hang on a second.
Other: Stop a minute.
AM: So, my name’s Annie Moody and I’m working with the International Bomber Command Centre and Lincoln University and it’s Tuesday the 9th of January 2018 and today I’m with Harry Hambrook in Harrogate and I’ve also got Gary Rushbrooke with me and Harry’s daughter with me. And what I’d really like to know Harry to start off is where you were born, you’ve just said you’re a Cockney, and a little bit about your childhood. What your parents did and school and stuff like that. So where were you born first of all?
HH: As far as I can recall I was born in Hackney.
AM: Right.
HH: And I lived in Dalston.
AM: Yeah.
HH: Which is a part of Hackney.
AM: What did you, what did your dad do?
HH: My father was a cabbie. A London cabbie.
AM: Yeah.
HH: He was, I think he had many different types of jobs but I can remember him as a cabbie.
AM: Right.
HH: Driving a cab.
AM: And what sort of house did you live in?
HH: It was two houses, terrace one. Just two houses in a, I mean a long line of houses, but and we lived in a basement, semi-basement and the first floor and the top floor was let.
AM: Right.
GR: Brothers and sisters?
HH: I had one sister, eighteen months younger than me and one brother, five years younger than me.
AM: Right. And what about, can you remember what school you went to? What was school like?
HH: Oh, well I enjoyed school but I couldn’t get away from it quick enough. and I didn’t do very, I didn’t do very well at school at all because I had no intentions of staying. All I wanted to do was to get out to work.
AM: So how old were you when you left? Fourteen?
HH: Fourteen.
AM: Fourteen. So what did you do then to find —
HH: I was an office boy.
AM: Right. How did you find your job?
HH: I think it was through the Labour Exchange.
AM: Right. And what sort of company was it? What sort of things did you do?
HH: Oh just, ‘Do this,’ ‘Do that,’ ‘Do this,’ ‘Do that, Harold.’
AM: Dogsbody.
HH: Yeah.
AM: But that’s at fourteen years old.
HH: We had another office about three or four miles away and I used to cycle back and forward to that four times a day to collect post.
AM: Right.
HH: And inter-office material, you know.
AM: Yeah. Can you remember how much you got paid?
HH: I think it was twelve and sixpence.
AM: A week.
HH: Yeah.
AM: And how much of that did you have to divvy up to your mum?
HH: Ten shillings. Two and six for me.
AM: You kept two and six. What did you spend your two and six on?
HH: Oh, I couldn’t tell you. I couldn’t tell you.
GR: Had war broken out by then?
HH: No.
GR: Right.
HH: No. I was fourteen in March ’39.
AM: Right.
HH: And the war broke out in September. What was it then? ’39.
GR: Yeah.
AM: So at, so at fourteen then, war has started. You were working as an office boy. So at what point did you decide to join the RAF? What made you decide to join the RAF?
HH: Well, I was coming up to when I had to register. Eighteen.
AM: Yeah.
HH: And I didn’t fancy going in the Army so I volunteered for the RAF the week before I had to register.
AM: Right.
HH: And they said, they had an office not far from us and so I went to join the aircrew. So they said, ‘Well, we haven’t got any vacancies for aircrew except gunners. So I said, ‘Well, that’s alright.’ So that’s what I did.
AM: And that’s what you did.
HH: I was, I wasn’t called up until September October the same year. Quite some time.
AM: So what year would that be? ’40?
HH: ’39.
GR: No.
HH: ’43.
GR: ’43.
HH: ‘43.
AM: So you’re coming up to eighteen.
HH: Yeah.
AM: In ’43. So what —
HH: That’s right.
AM: So you went and joined up. You were told you were going to be an air gunner.
GR: Sorry. Going back to 1939/40 and obviously you said you were born in, was you living in Hackney still? What was it like in London during the Battle of Britain, the Blitz and all that?
HH: Well —
GR: You would have been fourteen, fifteen.
HH: Well, as I say we had two air raid shelters in our garden. We had the Nissen one which the government put in.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And also we had quite a big garden and quite near to us there was a local firm of engineers that made these invalid tricycles. You know, the —
GR: Oh, I know, yeah.
HH: Like that.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And my father was very friendly with the people there and they wanted somewhere for their men to go during the day. So they built an underground air raid shelter in our back garden.
GR: Garden.
HH: Which we used to use at night.
GR: Which you used as well.
HH: And they used to use in the day but it slept nine. All through the Blitz that’s where we went every night. We didn’t wait for the air raid to sound. Just went there automatically.
GR: Because in, obviously in the Hackney area —
HH: We never lost a window.
GR: Never because it was bombed a lot, wasn’t it? Yeah.
HH: Yeah. It was all around us but we never lost a window.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Yes.
GR: So you went into that air raid shelter every night.
HH: Every night.
GR: Yeah. Did you ever end up in the Underground?
HH: No.
GR: Because a lot of them did didn’t they when they were bombed out?
HH: Yeah.
GR: And all that.
HH: No.
AM: So were there, were there nine of you in the air raid shelter and did it have, did you have beds or —
HH: Yeah. Well, there was seats to sit on and then, and then another one which was lowered and that was pulled up and hung up so that someone could get up there. A couple at the other end. It wasn’t, wasn’t as big. About half the size of this room.
AM: Right. But nine of you in there.
HH: I think it was either seven or nine slept in there every night. Yeah.
AM: Right.
HH: Yeah.
GR: And do you have any recollections of the —
HH: We had electric down there. Electric light and electric, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And a primus stove.
GR: Any recollections of the Battle of Britain with the fighter boys going on above you at the time? I think you’d be —
HH: Well, not —
GR: No.
HH: No. Not a lot really. I think most of it was down more southeast to us.
GR: Yes. Yeah. And then obviously yeah then they moved in to the Blitz and everything else. But yeah, obviously very interesting also living there during, well, 1941/42. And then you volunteered for air crew in ’43.
HH: Yeah. I passed out in ’44. Was posted to [pause] Oh, I forget what it’s called now.
AM: What was the training like? Where did you do your training?
HH: Well, it’s all in there actually.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Is it in the logbook?
GR: Yeah.
AM: We’ll have a look at the logbook.
GR: But when they called you up you’d been waiting, you’d been waiting a few months and then you got the call up papers to go.
HH: Yeah. St Johns Wood we were sent to to start with.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Initially to report to —
GR: Was that Lord’s Cricket Ground?
HH: The cricket ground. That’s right.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
GR: And then —
HH: And then from there I think I went to —
GR: Wymeswold. I’ve got Wymeswold.
HH: Oh that. Yeah. That’s later on.
GR: Yeah. Later on is it?
HH: I went to Bridlington for the six weeks square bashing.
GR: Square bashing. Join the RAF and you’re marching up and down.
HH: Yeah. In the winter and it was quite cold.
AM: I was going to say what did you think of Bridlington then? A southern boy like you?
HH: Didn’t think much of it to be quite honest.
AM: Were you staying in digs like?
HH: Yeah.
AM: A lot of people stayed in the holiday digs, didn’t they?
HH: That’s right.
AM: Yeah.
HH: In houses we were. Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
HH: Going for dinner at night and you got sardines on toast and things like that.
GR: And that would have been the first time you’d been away from home wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah. Apart from holidays, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HH: We had relations in North Wales which we used to go to quite often during the summer as kids.
GR: That’s better.
HH: In fact, my mother and father used to put me and my sister on the train at Euston.
GR: And send you off.
HH: In the guard’s van, in the care of the guard. And my grandmother used to meet us at Chester.
AM: Yeah.
HH: Couldn’t do that today could you?
GR: No. You couldn’t.
AM: With a little label on.
HH: Yeah.
AM: So after Bridlington then have I got it right that you ended up in Stranraer?
HH: Stranraer. That’s where we, I think that’s where we passed out.
GR: That was —
AM: Even further north.
GR: Number 3 Air Gunnery School.
HH: Yeah. I think that’s where we first started flying.
GR: Yes.
AM: So what was that like? First time in a plane.
HH: Well, to be quite honest I was quite scared actually but I wouldn’t show it. Otherwise they wouldn’t let you fly any more.
AM: Right.
GR: Yeah. I think it was Ansons, wasn’t it?
HH: Ansons. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Which was the original training aircraft. And you’re obviously there for a couple of months and then passed out and then on to 23 OTU at Wymeswold.
HH: Yeah. I think that’s where we went to, to crew up.
GR: Yes.
HH: About three or four hundred airmen all in a hangar and we were just told to crew ourselves up.
GR: Yeah.
HH: We weren’t told, ‘You go there and you go there.’ You had to find your own skipper.
AM: So who found who? Did the skipper find you or did you find the skipper?
HH: I can’t, I can’t remember.
AM: You can’t remember.
HH: No. No. It’s just wandered around blank. ‘Have you got a gunner yet?’ ‘No.’ ‘Alright. I’m here.’
GR: Because that have been a tried and tested way for really the whole of the war.
HH: Yeah.
GR: For some reason they didn’t sort of say, ‘Right,’ you know, ‘You’re with him. You’re with him,’ putting you all together. And in general I think the pilot used to start walking around and then —
HH: Yeah.
GR: Try and find a flight engineer, a navigator, an air gunner.
HH: Well, our pilot at that time was a sergeant.
AM: Right.
HH: Whereas most of the pilots in those days were, I think were commissioned.
GR: They were commissioned. Yeah.
HH: He was only a sergeant.
GR: What would you have been at the time?
HH: Sergeant.
GR: You were a sergeant as well.
HH: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And that and, then that’s when we first started training as a crew, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Doing cross countries for the navigator and experience for the pilot because he’d never flown two engine aircraft and we were on Wimpies.
GR: Yes.
AM: Right.
GR: So when you said you’d crewed up that would have been a crew of five would it? There wouldn’t have been —
HH: Seven.
GR: There were seven of you on the —
HH: Seven. Pilot, engineer, bomb aimer, wireless operator.
GR: Mid-upper and rear gunner.
HH: Two gunners.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And who have I missed out? No. That’s right. That’s seven.
GR: That’s seven. Yeah. Yeah. That’s seven. Yeah. So, and did you keep the same pilot all the way through once you’d crewed up?
HH: We did. Yes. We had him right until he blacked out on take-off, and he was grounded. They wouldn’t let him fly any more.
AM: During training?
HH: No. During operations. We were actually going down the runway on take-off with a full bomb load and he blacked out.
AM: So what happened?
HH: The engineer managed to pull off all the power because we hadn’t even, we had been, we were going but we hadn’t, hadn’t got to that point. Couldn’t do anything you know.
GR: It wasn’t.
HH: About a minute short of it.
GR: It wasn’t the first operation was it?
HH: Oh, no. No.
GR: No. You’d done a few ops by then.
HH: Oh yeah. We’d done loads.
GR: I know we’re jumping forward but —
HH: We’d done over twenty ops by then.
GR: And did you ever find out what the reason was he blacked out or —
HH: No. No. He was, he was sent somewhere else for tests and all that sort of thing and we never saw him again. They wouldn’t let him fly though.
GR: Well, no. Not if he’d, not if he’d, certainly if he’d blacked out.
HH: The CO came out, ‘Don’t worry chaps,’ he said, ‘I’ll get you another pilot.’ You can imagine what they said to him. So he got another crew instead.
GR: Yeah. So you didn’t fly that night. You —
HH: We didn’t fly but they did.
GR: Yeah.
HH: They took it out. Then came back.
GR: Yeah. I was just going to say, took your aircraft because some of the stories you hear something like that the aircraft doesn’t come back and its fate that you didn’t go.
HH: They came back. Came back. Yeah.
GR: So I notice also then you moved on to Heavy Conversion Unit and you were training on Halifaxes.
HH: That’s right. Yeah. Four engine. Four engine aircraft.
GR: Yeah. With the same pilot. Flight Sergeant Potter.
HH: Yeah. By that time he was a flight sergeant. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. And then a month later they moved you on to Hemswell which was Lancasters.
HH: Lancasters. Lancasters.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Right.
GR: Yeah. Which one did you prefer? Lancaster? Halifax?
HH: I don’t have a preference really.
GR: I suppose being —
HH: Because I mean the rear turret was basically the same in either.
GR: I was just going to say the rear turret was, yeah.
HH: And you got in the same. The same way, you know.
GR: Yes. Yeah. Down the chute.
HH: So —
GR: And then around about —
HH: I think, I think the pilot preferred a Lancaster.
GR: Yeah. I’ve heard some aircrew say that they, certainly aircrew who flew on operations on both aircraft that the Halifax was more roomy and if they ever had to get out of it quickly they preferred to be in the Halifax.
HH: Yeah.
GR: But obviously that never happened to you but, yeah just checking your logbook around about September ’44 you were sent to 166 Squadron at Kirmington.
HH: That’s right. That was our first operational squadron.
GR: Yes.
HH: I don’t think, I don’t think we did. We might have done one trip from there but I’m not sure whether we did any like actual operations.
GR: No. You’re quite right. You did some cross country.
HH: We did cross countries and that.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And then, and then we were sent to Scampton to start an operational squadron again because at that time Scampton was non-operational.
GR: Right.
HH: So, so the skipper said, ‘Come on, gather your things up,’ he said, ‘We’ll get there first so we’ll get the best [laughs] best accommodation.’
GR: Did other people go from 166 go or were you the only crew that went?
HH: No. The, all the chaps that went to Scampton that day to form a new squadron were all from Kirmington.
GR: Oh right. Yeah. And that was 153 Squadron.
HH: 153. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. And then again just checking the logbook you did a couple of cross countries and then October the 31st you went to Cologne. Was that your first operation? Cologne.
HH: If that’s what’s in there —
GR: Yeah.
HH: For our squadron that’s where we went. Yeah.
GR: How did you feel about that?
HH: Well, it was just an operation.
GR: Yeah. Your first time was —
HH: I can’t remember anything about it.
GR: But it was, yeah.
HH: Just —
GR: As a crew you just you just did it.
HH: You just get out and do it.
GR: Yeah. And then over the next few months any, any near misses or anything?
HH: I never pulled the trigger. We were lucky. We never had, you know, we never got attacked by enemy fighters. One or two shells burst quite near. You could feel the vibration, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HH: But apart from that when we got back we would walk around the aircraft to see if there any holes anywhere.
GR: Like you say. Yeah, so as an air gunner and I’m sure the mid-upper gunner was the same you never saw any night fighters or have any —
HH: No. No.
GR: No. And then, yeah just going through your logbook. Cologne, Dusseldorf.
HH: We not only had to keep our eyes open for night fighters but other, other friendly aircraft because I mean when you get three or four hundred aircraft going on a trip.
GR: Yeah.
HH: You know, you’d often see one just floating over the top of you.
GR: It’s when the bomb bay doors open, which I know has happened to a few people.
HH: Yeah.
GR: But again no near misses.
HH: No.
GR: Yeah. So —
AM: A charmed life.
HH: Charmed.
GR: Yeah. And I notice you flew on New Year’s Eve so that was a nice way to see in the new year.
HH: That’s right. Yeah.
GR: But yes. As Annie just said a charmed life. Not to say it was easy but you escaped.
HH: Oh, I escaped. Yeah.
GR: Unharmed most of the time.
HH: Well, that’s it. I mean each trip was a trip. You got in it, did it and then we never gave it another thought really.
GR: Yeah. Which is the best way to do it. And, yeah jumping back to what you said about your pilot that night who was a flying officer by then, Flying Officer Potter. I’m just trying to [pause] here we go so that was around about February. So you were off ops for a little while and then back in.
HH: Yeah. I missed. I was also off ops about that time because I had a lot of sinus trouble. Because you can’t fly —
GR: No.
HH: With sinus trouble. You get terrible pains.
GR: Serious headaches and pain. Yeah.
HH: So I was grounded for about three weeks. I missed three trips. The crew did three trips without me.
GR: Right. And they were flying with a spare bod, were they?
HH: They had a spare bod. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So that when you came back did you have a new pilot then?
HH: No. I can’t remember. I think we were still flying with Potter at that time. It’s difficult to remember now exactly.
GR: Yeah.
HH: The dates.
GR: I think Potter’s, his last op was around about March the 7th to Dessau.
HH: Yeah. Well, I was back flying by then.
GR: Yeah. You’re back flying and then literally at the beginning of April, Flight Lieutenant Williams.
HH: That’s the chap who took over from our skipper.
GR: And he was taking over a crew that had probably done —
HH: We’d, at that time I think we’d done twenty six.
GR: Twenty six. So you were near the end.
HH: I’d done twenty three and the crew had done twenty six because I missed three.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And I think he needed three trips to —
GR: Complete his.
HH: Thirty.
GR: Ah right. So he was an experienced pilot.
AM: Oh, so yeah.
GR: Yeah. Which is good.
HH: So that brought out the rest of our crew to twenty nine and me twenty six and the war was nearly over so they grounded us.
GR: Yeah.
HH: So then I went home on leave.
GR: Yes. 9th of April. Last operation to Kiel, and back safely.
HH: Yeah.
GR: So, and what, they just grounded you because you were near the end of your tour.
HH: Well, they didn’t need us anymore. You know. They were more or less pack it in.
GR: Yeah.
HH: What they were using them for was to move troops about. Get people home.
GR: Right. Did you do any of that?
HH: No.
GR: No.
HH: No. They didn’t need gunners for that. No. They only needed a pilot.
GR: Oh course not. No.
HH: Navigator and that, so and a flight engineer.
GR: Yeah. Of course, yeah because then they could get more prisoners of war and —
HH: That’s right.
GR: Those type of people in the aircraft couldn’t they? So the last op was the 9th of April. They sent you home.
HH: Sent me home, and I was home until August.
GR: Right. With the family.
HH: With the family. Yeah.
GR: With mum and dad and that. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: And then what happened? How long was it before you were demobbed?
HH: Oh, I wasn’t demobbed until 1947.
AM: So what did they do with you in those, in those last two years then?
HH: Well, I was eventually posted to a unit in the Midlands. I forget what it was now. And the officer in charge there had all these people that had been posted to him. He said, ‘I don’t know what I’m going to do with you lot.’ [laughs] You know. He pulled out a few jobs that might be vacant and he said, ‘Post Office,’ I said, ‘That’ll do me,’ because it was on the domestic site so you’ve got the journey backwards and forwards you see. So, the officer in charge of the Post Office, he said, ‘You don’t want to go into the RAF — ’ [pause] I forget what they call it now. Equivalent to the army.
GR: RAF Volunteer Reserve? No.
HH: No. No. And anyway, so I said, ‘No, I don’t really think I want to do it,’ because I wasn’t really looking forward to all the physical training that would be involved.
GR: RAF regiment.
HH: RAF regiment.
GR: Yeah.
HH: So I said, well he said, ‘Remuster to the Post Office,’ he said, ‘We’re short here,’ he said ‘That’s why you’re here.’ So I said, ‘Yeah, ok. I’ll do that.’ So he signed my remustering form and I was sent to Kirkham on a fortnight’s course. Postal course. And when I got there we were told that everybody when they finished their course goes overseas [laughs] So I was on a boat to India. So I was out there for eighteen months until I got my demob.
GR: Right.
AM: What? What was that?
HH: Working in a Post Office.
GR: Working in a Post Office.
AM: Yeah.
GR: In India.
HH: And on the local RAF station. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Kanpur.
AM: Right.
GR: That’s, sorry what rank?
AM: Kanpur.
HH: Kanpur.
GR: Oh, I thought you said corporal.
HH: Kanpur. That was the name of the station. No.
AM: No.
HH: No. And while I was out there, I mean as you probably know the RAF rank was automatic.
GR: Yes.
HH: In aircrew.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Sergeant, flight sergeant, warrant officer and then it finished. I got, I got to the station when I got my WO.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
HH: And about three weeks after I got it everybody above the rank of sergeant was reduced to the rank of sergeant.
GR: So you went out to India as a sergeant.
HH: So I went back to being a sergeant again.
GR: Did they pay you as a warrant officer though?
HH: I think. I think they did. Yeah.
GR: They did. Yeah. From speaking to other gentlemen that for some reason yeah they demoted everybody.
HH: Yeah. Because there was too many of us coming along.
GR: Yeah. But you kept the same pay grade.
HH: Yeah.
GR: Which obviously was decent of them.
HH: Yeah.
AM: So you were working in the Post Office in Kanpur. Where were you living? What sort of living quarters were you?
HH: Domestic site on the station because Kanpur was a big, a big RAF unit, you know with loads of huts.
AM: Right.
HH: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
GR: A lot of ex-aircrew ended up in India.
AM: Yeah.
GR: For a couple of years after the war.
HH: Because they wanted, as soon as the war finished they wanted to get the people who had been out there a long while —
GR: Yeah.
HH: Get them home.
GR: Get them home, yeah.
HH: And they had to have people out there to replace them because they couldn’t just have empty units.
GR: And obviously India at the time there was going towards —
AM: Partition.
GR: Partition and everything else.
HH: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. We came out in spring of ’47.
GR: Yeah. And was it, was it straight back home and demobbed from India?
HH: Oh, I went straight, I went straight back to the company that I left to go in the RAF to. They had, they had to take you back.
GR: Yes.
HH: So I was there until I retired at fifty, sixty one.
AM: Good heavens.
HH: So I did fifty odd years.
GR: Living down in Hackney or that area.
HH: Well, I lived in Hackney until I got, until I got married.
GR: Right.
AM: So, so what did —
HH: And then, and then we had reps all over the country.
GR: Yeah.
HH: And the chap who was doing Yorkshire was retiring so, and I knew all the reps because I had, when they came in to the office I had a lot to do with being on the sales side you see. So I said to him, ‘I wouldn’t mind doing this. Your job is a bit of cake.’ Anyway, I applied and I got it so that’s what brought me to Yorkshire.
GR: Right.
HH: So I came to Yorkshire in the ‘60s with my family. Susan was about what? Five or six.
Other: I was five.
HH: Five. Yeah.
Other: Yeah. Steven was a few years —
HH: And I’ve been in this area ever since.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. So you started off in that company as the boy cycling from one to the other delivering mail.
HH: That’s it.
AM: And ended up in Yorkshire.
HH: Finished up as a sales rep. For the last six years I spent back in the office.
AM: Yeah.
HH: They were [pause] things were getting smaller. They weren’t the amount of customers about, you know. They were retiring and, or not, or closing businesses and that sort of thing, so they amalgamated territories and they took me inside to run the sales office.
GR: Yeah. But still forty odd years with the same company.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
GR: Is —
HH: From ’39 to [pause] I forget when it was. Seventy. Seventy something.
AM: Seventy. Yeah.
HH: I think it was about.
Other: It was later than that because you retired after Laura was born. She was born in ’85.
HH: Yeah. Well —
Other: So it was —
HH: It was about ’86 then when I retired.
GR: Yeah.
Other: I was pregnant with Philip so it was ’86/87. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
Other: When you retired.
HH: I think, I think it was about forty eight years. I think I was about two years short of doing fifty.
AM: Right.
HH: What was it? I forget now.
AM: You know, thinking back now to the war years and the way it’s been portrayed since what, what do you think about what we actually did?
HH: I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it really.
AM: No. Because people have different views. Most, most men actually that were there just say, ‘Well, we did it.’
GR: Yeah.
AM: You know, they started the war, we did it and it helped turn the war.
Other: I think people then were more used to doing what they were told to do, weren’t the?
AM: Yes.
Other: Then they are these days. We question things more.
AM: Yeah.
HH: Well, that’s probably quite true that, you know. You were there to do what you were told.
AM: Yes.
GR: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if you —
HH: Well, I mean it happened and you had to go with it.
GR: Yeah, because obviously I’ve spoken to a lot of people you’re —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Hambrook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHambrookH180109
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:27:57 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hambrook was born in Hackney and when he left school he became an office boy. He volunteered for the RAF and became an air gunner. He was posted to 3 Air Gunnery School in Stranraer for gunnery training flying in Ansons. From there he went to 23 Operational Training Unit at Wymeswold where he crewed up. He joined 166 Squadron at Kirmington, and was posted to Scampton to form 153 Squadron, and at the war’s end had completed 26 operations. At the start of one operation his pilot blacked out and the flight engineer had to take control of the aircraft. His last operation was to Kiel on the 9 April 1945. He remustered to join the RAF Post Office and was posted to India and was demobbed in 1947 on his return to the UK.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
India--Kānpur
Germany--Kiel
Scotland--Stranraer
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04-09
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
Operational Training Unit
RAF Kirmington
RAF Scampton
RAF Wymeswold
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/868/11109/AHendersonIG171017.1.mp3
e974e79a8803f3c38d25b705429b1cb2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Henderson, Ian
Ian Grant Henderson
I G Henderson
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Ian Henderson DFM (b. 1922), his log book, a diary of operation, a memoir and a photograph. He flew operations as a navigator with 153 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ian Henderson and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Collection is NtA.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Henderson, IG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: Ok.
IH: Right.
JS: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach. The interviewee is Ian Henderson. The interview is taking place at Mr Henderson’s home in Lockerbie on the 17th of October 2017. Ian, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed today. Could you tell me a little about your life before you joined the RAF?
IH: Yes. Well, the war started in 1939 when I was seventeen. And I had left school by that time and I went to Edinburgh University to study law and I had two years there before I joined up. I wanted to be a pilot but, and I went to London, at Lord’s I think we started off with. We had several stations. Training stations. And when I was twenty I went to Canada. At Edmonton, Alberta, still as a pilot trainee. Then after about a few months I was told they had too many pilots, trainees and I was asked to be a navigator. Train as a navigator. Of course, you just did as you were told in these days and I did that. I finished my navigator’s training, came back to this country and further training. And then I joined up with a crew and we went to Scampton, 153 Squadron. My pilot was a South African. Donald Legg. And an excellent pilot. And I’m quite sure we owe our lives to him because at that time one of the main dangers, risks was collisions with adjoining Lancasters or bombs being dropped from above on to you and a good pilot could avoid that. So we survived the war. We had one rather difficult experience. At December 1944 it was we were trying to bomb a dam called the Urft Dam and we were hit. Before that the cloud came down. We couldn’t see the target so we were told to come back home again. Dump the bombs in the North Sea. But then we were hit and an engine caught fire. We couldn’t get the fire out. It burned for about two hours. However, we got as far as the North Sea, dumped our bombs, got back to Brussels which was free at that time and landed there. Made a forced landing there and got home safely the next day. Actually, the following day the Luftwaffe came across in force and shot up all the aircraft in that particular airfield. So we lost our plane. It was pretty badly damaged anyway. And then, that was December 1944. The war ended about six months later and I was sent to India as a navigator instructor. Spent a year in India. And then I was demobilised in 1946 or ’47. Came back home, completed my law training in Edinburgh University. Came back to Lockerbie and went in to my father’s business where I spent the next forty five years. So I, I had a very enjoyable life. I’m glad I lived when I did [laughs]
JS: What, why, why do you think you wanted to join the RAF as opposed to anything else in the services?
IH: I think it was the [pause] it seemed the most, I don’t know, exciting service to be in. I still think that. Flying was such an adventurous thing and you were less regimented I think than in the Army. Or at least I got that idea. And I’m sure I made the right decision. I enjoyed my stay in the RAF immensely.
JS: You mentioned you did your training in Canada. So, how did you get to Canada?
IH: Oh, well we got to Canada by Mauretania ship. It was supposed to take ten thousand passengers. There were thirty thousand of us aboard in the hold. The various parts that they were very cramped. And we had to go very quickly to avoid the submarines. Thirty miles, I think it was thirty knots we travelled at. And we realised then we were so packed that if we were torpedoed there wasn’t much chance of getting up and into a lifeboat. However, there was no, we got across to Canada quite uneventfully and landed in Halifax. Took the train across to Edmonton, Alberta where I spent the next year, or eleven months I think it was. Before that as I said I was training as a pilot to begin with and then told I had to remuster as a navigator which I did. So after completing the course in Canada we came back home and, what year would that be? 1942 it was, I think. And spent most of the rest, I spent a good year, a year and a half at at Scampton near Lincoln. I think we did thirty, thirty operations without much. I think, I think we had quite a successful tour altogether. We were hit several times but nothing, nothing too serious except the time we caught fire. The most dramatic operation of course was Dresden. And we were one of fifteen aircraft from 153 Squadron at Scampton and our pilot was a South African. Donald Legg, who was a pilot. A Canadian called Russell Rawlings. A wireless operator, a Welshman. And upper-gunner was Andrew Andrews and the rear gunner was a Scot called Jock Beet from Dundee. Donald Legg, our pilot was thirty two years of age. Much older than the other members of the crew who were all in their early twenties. The Lancaster P-Peter, the second one of that name which this crew had. The first one had been destroyed a few a few weeks earlier when after a bomber operation on the Urft Dam the first P for Peter had been hit by flak which had started a fire in the port engine. The fire could not be extinguished but the pilot had been able to fly as far as Brussels and to land there. Brussels was at that time was in the hands of the allies. Before going to Dresden we’d been advised that the Russians had particularly asked for the RAF to carry out the attack to help them. They had believed, the Russians had believed that there was a build-up of German troops and armour in Dresden preparing to make a counter attack on them. To the crews involved it was simply another operation. The principal difference being that it was a very much a longer distance than the average operation and they would be under possible attack from enemy fighters and flak for a longer period. There was a strong wind blowing that night. We took off at 21.22. About ninety miles from Dresden the pilot told me to stop navigating because he could see the fires that were burning on Dresden. The Americans had been up there earlier. So, due to the, due to our diversionary tactics which confused the Germans no enemy fighters were encountered in the operation. But this was very exceptional and there was no sign of the Luftwaffe being any less strong or active previous to or after the Dresden operation.
[pause]
IH: My personal view at the time was that Dresden was just another operation which was intended to give assistance to the Russian allies and would be a further step in defeating the enemy which was still a powerful war machine in operation and was quite capable of carrying out long enough to develop and use more powerful weapons. Which they were working on. Namely guided rockets and the atom bomb. I firmly believe that the devastating destruction caused to Dresden which was contributed to by an exceptionally strong wind that night was a psychological blow to the Germans that resulted in the war ending many months earlier than it would have been otherwise and so probably hundreds of thousands, saved probably hundreds of thousands of lives of death camp prisoners, British and American servicemen and British civilians. At this stage of the war Germany was still occupied, had still occupied much of Europe including Yugoslavia, Greece and the Channel Islands. Jews were being murdered and the gas chambers were still operating in the concentration camps. The Germans had developed a new weapon, the V-2 and were attacking London with these rockets. There was no clear indication of when the war, which was in its fifth year would end. The orders to bomber crews were to hit only military targets and this they endeavoured to do despite heavy enemy defences.
[pause – pages turning]
IH: That’s Dresden.
JS: You spoke, you spoke, you spoke earlier before we started recording about your role as a navigator and some of the navigation aids that you had. Do you want to just —
IH: Yes. Yes.
JS: Say a little bit about that?
IH: We were lucky. We had several very useful navigation aids. Gee was a machine which recorded the position of your aircraft in relation to the ground. Beams sent out from Britain which the machine was able to interpret and tell you more or less where you were. It was frequently jammed by the Germans so you didn’t have the use of it more than maybe halfway through your trip. And the other was H2O. That was the name. H2O. Which sent down rays, reflected them back and you could interpret, find out your position that way. The only, they were useful over the coastlines and lakes, lochs but they had their limited use. Just. They didn’t tell you exactly where you were. So most, and of course you had the astro navigation which was a bit tricky at times because the aircraft was moving up and down so quickly that you couldn’t take an accurate fix. So it was dead reckoning most of the time. You knew approximately. You had your compass and your winds and you worked it out that way. It worked.
JS: You mentioned your crew.
IH: Oh yes. Ah huh.
JS: How did you crew form up? And how did you get on with your crew?
IH: Yes. Yes. Yes. Well. when you were fully qualified you were all taken to a large hangar and told to sort yourself out. And it was quite a hit or miss business joining up. I think the pilot would come around and spot you and ask you what was your position, what was your qualifications and when he got to the right number of his crew that was it. It was very, it was very hit or miss but very successful. We got on very well with our crew. We spent a lot of time together. The officers of course were billeted in one part of the, the airfield. And the other ranks, the rest were mostly at that time sergeants. Non-commissioned officers. Apart from the pilot who was a South African. So we got on very well together and we spent all our recreation time together. We were very often in Lincoln at a dance or, you know pub.
JS: How was Scampton as a base?
IH: Oh, Scampton was a war, a peacetime, I beg your pardon a wartime. No. A peacetime base it was. It was a very good station to be on. We were, I can’t, I think, I think we were in, I can’t remember what we were in. Probably in Nissen huts. No. I can’t quite remember that at all. The Nissen huts were quite primitive in these days but cold in winter. You were very lucky if you got a bed near a stove to keep you warm in winter, but yeah. When you’re in your twenties you don’t notice discomfort at all. At all. So I was glad I lived when I did and had a very happy experience in the Air Force. In the RAF.
JS: How was, how was Lincoln in those days?
IH: Lincoln was packed with RAF personnel of course every night. And my pilot had brought his wife across. They stayed at Vicar’s Court just beside the Cathedral. 4 Vicar’s Court. And very nice. A very nice city was Lincoln. A lot of happy memories of it.
JS: You, you mentioned your, your training in Canada. Just to take you back to that. So you were there for, around nearly a year.
IH: Yes. About, about a year. Slightly less than that. To begin with I was training as a pilot, and we flew Oxfords. Oxfords and Ansons. I think I was there probably about two months before I switched over to navigation. Edmonton was a very nice place to be. Well, we were out, slightly out of Edmonton but went in quite a lot. And it was a very happy experience. Canadians were a particularly hospitable people and when I landed in Canada, we landed in a small town. The lights were blazing. The shops were full. It seemed like, seemed a wonderful place to be. I was surprised afterwards a Canadian told me that that particular town was one of the most rariest in Canada. To me it seemed a wonderful place.
JS: So the weather there would be quite different from that you were accustomed to.
IH: Oh yes. Very cold in winter. Very, quite hot in summer. You went on parade in the hot summer weather. Hot summer day. Hot days. Someone always tended to faint, you know. Standing there in the heat. But a complete change in the winter. The winter was very, very cold. Yeah. But it was a wonderful place. Canada.
JS: How did the aircraft of that time cope with the diversity in weather from the incredibly hot to icily cold?
IH: I think they coped very well indeed. I never noticed any problems at all. No. No. I don’t think there was any, was any problems. I’d say they were mostly Oxfords and Ansons they were called. Two engined planes we flew in. But —
JS: You, you mentioned, again just back to your, your crew and the fact that the officers were separated from the NCOs which was, which was most of the crew. So how did operations and time off work like? What was the sort of balance between those? Like how often would you do operations compared with being stood down and recreational time and things like that?
IH: We did thirty operations over [pause] let me think now. Six or seven months. So quite a few training flights in between. But let me think now. The recreation. I think there was no difference then between the officers and the other ranks. We were all mostly sergeants, flight sergeants except for the pilot was a lieutenant. A flight lieutenant. The bomb aimer was a Welshman. Dave Jones. He was also commissioned. That left five of us flight, flight sergeants. And we were definitely inside at that time. Not in a, not in a Nissen hut. I remember we were in a permanent room in an inside building. I think we all spelt in the same room which was fine. And [pause] but, and recreation we’d all go out together in to Lincoln. To a dance or the cinema. Or a meal. No. Not a meal. We didn’t eat out much. But no, that was a very happy time.
JS: Good.
IH: A happy time.
JS: Good. You [pause] you talked about the operation where you had to land in Belgium. So you obviously lost your aircraft there then.
IH: Yes. The aircraft was quite badly damaged of course and we stayed that night in Brussels in an ex-German barracks. And we got some, given some money to go into the town for the evening, and next day we got, we flew back again in another aircraft. A Dakota. Back to Scampton. And either that day or the next day the Luftwaffe came across in force and shot up all the aircraft in this area where we’d landed in Brussels. So we lost our aircraft, our Lancaster completely that time. And we got a new one when we got back. Back to Scampton. That was the December. December 1944. So we’d have that until the war ended. That was in May 1945. After that we were split up and I went to Crosby near Carlisle to navigate for the longer distances over the Pacific against the Japanese. But before the course was finished the Japanese surrendered and instead of going out to fly, to operate there I was sent out to be a navigation briefing officer. By that time I was commissioned and at Karachi near Mauripur. Karachi. And all the planes were bringing back Army personnel by aircraft so all the planes went through Karachi and they were briefed about the various risks involved on the way back. Where not to have a forced landing because the natives were hostile. And I was there about a year. A year I think it was in Karachi. Again, a very enjoyable experience. After that I got back home. I was demobbed. Went back to Edinburgh University. Completed my law degree and joined my father in his business, legal business in Lockerbie. I met my wife to be at a dance in Lockerbie. She was in the WAAF but we didn’t, we didn’t meet in the Air Force so I met her at this dance and we got married a year later. And after that my life was uneventful but very happy.
JS: You, you spoke about being in Brussels and being given some money to go.
IH: Yeah.
JS: And do Brussels if you like.
IH: Yes.
JS: For the evening. How was it then? Because I mean it couldn’t have been liberated for particularly long before that time.
IH: Oh no. No. It was very bleak at that time. There must have been some shops but there was no, no light. No nightlife. I suppose we spent our money I suppose going to some local pub or would be. I don’t remember having anything having a meal of any sort. And certainly the, we’d spent the night in an old German barracks which were very primitive. Just a night but again at that age you don’t, not at all conscious of any, any, any discomfort. Took it all in [pause] took it all in our stride.
JS: That, that must have been quite a rare experience though for someone in your squadron to end up if you like having to put down on the continent.
IH: Oh yes.
JS: And then come back because to a certain extent you were on the right side of the line so to speak.
IH: Yes. Yes. Yes. That’s right.
JS: Ok. As a, as a Bomber Command veteran how do you think you were treated after the war when you came back?
IH: Well, very well indeed. No complaints at all. We were demobbed and given a suit of clothes. A new suit of clothes. I think a hundred pounds. And things were very different. Very strict, strict rationing then and there was strict rationing for about seven or eight years afterwards. But again, these hardships don’t mean much to you when you are in your early twenties. You just accept them. No. We were very well treated when we got back. And so I was very glad I joined the RAF in preference to the Army or the Navy. It was a very exhilarating time.
JS: You, you mentioned when we spoke earlier about Churchill’s attitude to Bomber Command and, and the end of the war.
IH: Yes. Yes, indeed. Well, Churchill had authorised or instructed I should say the bombing of Dresden. Up to that time the, the Germans had been bombing British cities, killing a lot of people and there was a great animosity towards the Germans and a great support for the RAF. For the bombing operations they carried out. But once the war ended I think it’s a slight change. The criticism of the bombing of the German towns especially Dresden. And I was a very keen supporter of Churchill during the war. I think he did a marvellous job. I was slightly disappointed at his lack of support for the Bomber Command at the end. And I think however it was understandable. He wanted, Churchill was keen to get back in to power in parliament and he thought that too much support of the bombing of Germany might damage his chances of being successful. But, and that, that was I think quite understandable. So, but no I was a keen supporter of Churchill really and that was, and I understood his reason for what he did.
JS: When you went to Karachi did you have a choice to be demobbed before that or was that just where you were sent?
IH: No. Just where I was sent. Yes. At that time. Yes. I ‘d been switched to Transport Command at that time and we were being demobbed in groups according to when, how long you’d been in service and I had a year after the war ended before I was demobbed. My turn. When my turn came up.
JS: But, but the thing you were doing in Karachi was predominantly to do with if you like that flow of, of prisoners and service personnel coming home then.
IH: Exactly. They all, they all I think came through Karachi and Transport Command at that time was taking them back home.
JS: And, and what sort of aircraft were doing the majority of that work?
IH: I think they were mostly Liberators. Big American planes in Karachi. In Transport Command. At that time I remember I was sent to Cairo for a few days to check up on the, the route and that was a Liberator I was on. And I found Cairo an interesting place. It [pause] the, then I came back to, went back again to Karachi and eventually we were demobbed. We came back. Yes. By, by sea it was. We flew out to Karachi but we came out by sea through the Suez Canal and that took quite a long time in these days. I can’t remember. Quite a long time. Going out to Karachi took, took about three days. Various stops in North Africa. But coming home of course by sea was a very pleasant experience. It was all over then.
JS: So, so what, what sort of ship did you come back on? Can you remember?
IH: I can’t remember the name of it. Like I can remember the name of the boat going out to Canada. The Mauretania. But I can’t remember the name of the boat, the ship we came back in. It was a passenger, a passenger liner. That’s all.
JS: Great. That’s been super.
IH: That’s great.
JS: Thank you very much for sharing.
IH: That’s a great pleasure.
JS: That’s been very —
IH: It’s been a great pleasure.
JS: Very, very interesting.
IH: A great pleasure indeed.
JS: Thank you very much. I’ll stop this.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ian Henderson
Creator
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James Sheach
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHendersonIG171017
Format
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00:35:43 audio recording
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Alberta--Edmonton
Belgium
Belgium--Brussels
Great Britain
Germany
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Urft Dam
Pakistan
Pakistan--Karachi
England--Lincolnshire
Alberta
Temporal Coverage
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1944-12
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
Description
An account of the resource
Ian Henderson was born in Lockerbie and studied law at the University of Edinburgh for two years before joining the Royal Air Force. He travelled to Canada onboard the RMS Mauretania to train as a pilot, after two months near Edmonton on Oxford and Anson aircraft, Ian transferred to navigator training. He joined 153 Squadron at RAF Scampton flying Lancasters. Ian’s crew included Pilot Donald Legg from South Africa, Wireless Operator Russel Rawlings from Canada, Bomb Aimer Dave Jones from Wales, Upper Gunner Andy Anders from England, Rear Gunner Jack Beat and Flight Engineer Jack Ross from Scotland. He recalled an operation on the Urft Dam in December 1944 where his aircraft P–Peter suffered an engine fire due to anti-aircraft fire and they carried out a forced landing in Brussels, then under Allied control. After a night spent in an ex German army barracks his crew flew home to RAF Scampton aboard a transport aircraft. His damaged Lancaster was destroyed on the ground at Brussels in a Luftwaffe attack shortly after. Ian described using both Gee and H2S navigation aids, with Gee being jammed by the Germans for perhaps 50% of the duration of an operation. On the 13/14 February 1945 Ian took part in an operation on Dresden, he described how to the crews it was just another operation. Crews were briefed that it was at the request of the Russians who feared German troops were amassing in the area. When they were around 90 miles from the target Ian recalled being told there was no need to navigate further as the fires from the burning city were clearly visible. Ian was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal. On completion of 30 operations Ian was commissioned and transferred to Transport Command as a navigation briefing officer. Posted to Karachi he briefed crews making the journey from the Far East to Great Britain on known hazards they could face. Returning back in 1946 he resumed his studies at the University of Edinburgh before joining his father’s law firm in Lockerbie.
Contributor
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Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
153 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Distinguished Flying Medal
forced landing
Gee
H2S
Lancaster
navigator
Oxford
pilot
RAF Scampton
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1056/11435/AOwenA150603.2.mp3
c12ac4f6e9a9a8007ac138b17d654e1f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Owen, Taff
Aneurin Owen
A Owen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Aneurin 'Taff' Owen (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Owen, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right, so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Kavanagh, myself. The interviewee is Mr Owen. The interview is taking place at his home on the 3rd of June 2015. So, if you’d like to just describe your early life.
AO: Yes, well, my very early life started, of course, in Wales, as you might imagine with a name like Aneurin Owen.
DK: I was going to say. [slight laugh]
AO: And, um, it was near Dolgellau near a little village called Penmaenpool, that was our nearest point, near the farm. I was a farmer’s son and we farmed there in them days. And I can recall going to, walking about three miles to school, each way that was in those days with — in all weathers, but the thing was then, most children did in that part of the world in them days. Also, um, I was very lucky, I always thought, in them days. I had a wonderful teacher, er, a primary school teacher. We used to get to school wet through sometimes and she used to slip all our clothes off and get them dried for us with one of these old fashioned stoves, you know, the old tortoise stoves we called them and, er, she was brilliant with our — with us, certainly with me, and some of the other farm children. But I suppose looking back as well in that time — I left there about ten years of age or nine years of age, nine and a half — and, um, just before a year or two before I left, I came across my very first sight of an aeroplane which was flown in the very early days. I don’t know whose it was but he used to travel from Dolgellau to Barmouth on the Mawddach estuary to — all along the river there, and he used to look down from the cockpit, an aircraft flying with, along there, with an open cockpit. I assume it was a Percival Gull type of aircraft, something like that but I don’t know, of course, now what it was. I don’t know, even know, who it belonged to. But that, er, was my very first experience of seeing an aeroplane close too, I suppose. The very first one. Then we left there after Depression, the Great Depression, 1929 and ‘30, early 30s. I came to this farm in about 1934, nine years of age, took a farm in Husbands Bosworth and, er, we started dairy farming from there, from then onwards, because obviously dairy farming was an important event after the Milk Marketing Board just came into being in those days and gave us a monthly income. But, er, one of the jobs I had to do before going to school, of course, here, going to, to the school at Lutterworth, was to milk two cows in the morning and two when I got home from school, and most of the time it was my own [slight laugh] but, er, it wasn’t a very pleasant job, actually, to do either before going to school, I found, because it was a dirty job. The cows were dirty and you had a job to get yourself cleaned up again in time for catching the school bus you got in those days. But, er, it was a job I didn’t care much for, like, because me and my father didn’t get on terribly well, er, in those days. Well, er, one, if you didn’t do your job properly then you got a thick ear for it [slight laugh], for not been doing what you were told. But going back to the flying, the first aircraft I saw, of all things, I saw in about 1936 here, flying up above the valley was an autogyro. That was the first time I ever saw one and I think he was on his trials run. I think it about 1936, no later than 1937 anyway, and he used to come along the valley from Market Harborough to Rugby and then follow the line but the autogyro — I can’t remember now who designed it. It was wing commander somebody, wasn’t it? I can’t think who it was exactly but going from — and then, that period as well, what really fascinated me was being able to see Amy Johnson. She used to come with the, with the, their flying circus team to do, well, flying demonstrations and flying trips for people, I think, which were about ten shillings a time, something like that but it doesn’t sound much money today but it was lots of money in those days. And I used to go an watch them at an airfield just near Husbands Bosworth and, er, I’m trying to think, Alan —.
DK: Cobham.
AO: Cobham. It was his flying circus. It became an annual event, and of course one of the people who came was Amy Johnson with him.
DK: Oh right.
AO: And, er, I got to see them flying their aircraft. I assume he used to do these events for financial reasons, to help them go on their world tours, they used to do probably as well. To get enough money for that. But it fascinated me to watch these aircraft taking off and I thought that’s the life for me, sort of thing, at the end of the day but that was only around about 1936. Yeah, 1936 the Tomahawk, would have been and then onwards, as I say, I didn’t get on terribly well with my father. My father was a strict parent I suppose, er, in lots of ways and, um, so I decided, I thought well I won’t stick it with farming, I’m going to do something else in life. And of course the Air Force, at that time, wasn’t in my mind as such but I wanted to do something different to farming so I thought I’d go — I was friendly with a guy named George Briggs from Bradford, who were wool merchants, and I decided to go there as an apprentice in the wool trade but, of course, by 1938, ’39 time, you could see the war clouds are looming and the expansion of the military forces as well, so things looked a bit different altogether at that time, and anyway, by 1940, my father died all of a sudden in — he had a heart attack and he was only thirty-seven years of age. But I’d still made my mind up, I wasn’t going to stick to farming but I think that was probably a mistake in some ways, as far as my mother was concerned, but, er, I made my mind up and that was it, and once I was old enough, I volunteered for the Air Force, you know. That’s what — and then by the time I was about seventeen and a half [cough], excuse me, er, I volunteered for — well, I was in a reserved occupation, of course, being in the farming side, so I could only go into air crew or submarines. But, er, submarines I didn’t fancy, didn’t — I wasn’t any good at swimming anyway [slight laugh].
DK: Yes. I can understand. [slight laugh]
AO: But at the back of my mind, I just wanted to go — flying was in my mind, you know, as far as that goes, so off I went to — I was supposed to volunteer. It was on a Sunday and I went to Leicester, I think it was to start with, and found the recruiting office was closed but I’d cycled to Leicester from here but there was a notice there saying the Hinckley office would be open, so I cycled to Hinckley and volunteered from there and, in the meantime, I also joined the Air Cadets in Lutterworth, yeah, Lutterworth branch that was, and we were able to go from there to, um, to an ITW to fly in a Tiger Moth on one or two occasions. That was at Desford, that was, which is a ITW, Initial Training Wing for — at that time and, within a short period of time anyway, I got my call-up papers come through and I had to go to Cardington for an interview there and do medical tests and so forth, to see if I was suitable for air crew and I passed that alright but unfortunately they found out I was under age. I was only, I was about seventeen and three quarters.
DK: Did you have to be eighteen then?
AO: Yes. I had to be 18, yep, so I came — they sent me back home from there until I was eighteen in November. And, anyway, I had Christmas at home that year, 1942 that was, and they called me up in, um, [inaudible] my papers came before Christmas, to report to Air Crew Receiving Centre in London, at St Johns Wood, of course, Regents Park, so that’s where I went to have further tests, be kitted out there, and also to have more exams and medicals there and, unfortunately, they found out that I had a lazy eye, so that restricted me to some parts of the air crew section, so that’s why I went out a wireless operator in the end. WOPAG they called them as well. And from there, of course, I can’t remember how long exactly, three or four weeks there, I suppose, by the time I was kitted out and initial square bashing you might describe it, and discipline, and Air Force law and that sort of thing. And we went on to, um, Bridgnorth, into ITW, Initial Training Wing, where we did quite a lot of square bashing in there and also Morse code and, er, radio equipment, basic equipment that was really. The Morse code was the most important thing there because you had get to, to be assessed at eight words a minute to pass there fairly quickly and then, er from then we had to do eighteen words a minute, but you only got one chance. If you failed you were out, sort of thing, you know, so that was it. You didn’t get a second chance. I don’t remember many having a second chance anyway at all. About three months there, it was altogether, in early 1943 and, er, we moved then to, to the Radio School in Yatesbury in Wiltshire. I think it was Number 2 Radio School, yeah, Number 2 Radio School, I think it was. That was quite a big unit that was there and, of course, we had to learn all the theory of radio and everything else there and also continue, of course, with our Morse code and, er, coding system, plus the procedure of Morse code as well, which was important of course. And then we had quite a long time there at Yatesbury, unfortunately, because the, um, this course was about a year-long altogether, after the theory part and then the practical part of it. We did a bit of flying then, eventually in Dominie aircraft bi-planes. That was our first part of flying in there and then we continued then as we progressed further, we went on to Proctors. And they had three different airfields there at Yatesbury. They had the main one for the Dominies on the main airfield, then another one which was called Town End, the Proctors used to fly from there, and then another one on occasion we had to go, which was miles away, was at Alton Barnes in the, in the Wolds, in the Downs, the Wiltshire Downs. Three airfields operated from there, actually, altogether and we used to be able to take a cook with us to Alton Barnes, because the local crowd [inaudible] there. We took a cook from the cookhouse with some meat and potatoes and they used to cook it for us, you know, in there, out in the open field with all mud [inaudible] early type of bake house, sort of thing, they had in there. And then after I finished, after Radio School — unfortunately, I did catch chicken pox in there and that set me back quite a bit. I was about nineteen, I suppose, eighteen or nineteen there. Again it was ‘43, late ‘43, that was, and I caught chicken pox and that put me on the sick list for quite a few weeks, you know. I’d be in the isolation hospital for a while as well so that when I came back from leave after sickness, sick leave, I had to go back and do another the course. Because I’d missed so much when I was sick, so I had to go back on another course then. But eventually I travelled from there to, of all things, from Calne in Wiltshire up to Scotland, at West Freugh, which is near Stranraer, which is an initial flying unit and gunnery school as well there. I was still doing gunnery, of course, at that stage, as well, in those days.
DK: Was the idea then, as a wireless operator, you were also an air gunner?
AO: Yes, there was, yeah. WOPAG, yes. Although there was a signaller’s course, but I think they did drop the air gunnery bit eventually but we were still doing it then, air gunnery course, yep. Yes, um, we travelled from Calne. I always remember that journey really well because, well, I’ll go back and tell you one thing I should have mentioned to you in London. I got fed up in London because of the air raids, I had to go in the shelter every night I was there so I was glad to see the back of that and, of all things, when I left Yatesbury, er, we caught the train in Calne and there was a carriage of us, of, of us, travelling up to Scotland. I can’t remember the number, actually, but the carriage was pretty full anyway and, er, we got as far as Bristol and got caught in an air raid there, so got stuck there for two or three hours in the, in an air raid. And so, we eventually moved to the next stop was Crewe where we had refreshments and then carried on to Carlisle, further refreshments there, then on to Stranraer where they picked us up. We didn’t get there until about twenty-seven hours later, it was, the journey took us altogether. And, er, we were rather late getting back into camp, to West Freugh, and there was police there. There was transport for us there that picked us up at the station. Then from West Freugh, I suppose — I’m trying the think how long we were there for, er, about two months I suppose it’d be, roughly, there, yeah. And I finished the — I think I did more gunnery there, probably, than anything else. We did do quite a bit of wireless work, flying out over the Atlantic, over Northern Ireland on the radio, in the Ansons there. And, er, one situation was, we had an engine failure with, with no land in sight anywhere so we had to go back to the nearest airfield there was and it happened to be Tiree. We was, we was stuck there for about five days whilst they flew another engine out that had gone US with us, you know. And, er, then after then we finished there and I went to my first OTU, on to Wellingtons at Peplow, in Shropshire. That would be around about 1945, August, early August in ‘44 that would have been. Yeah, we were in Peplow for — we started training then, more or less, straight away in Peplow and, um, unfortunately I’d been there a week or two and my sister got killed in an accident, you know, so I had some leave at that time to come home for a few days and then I returned to Peplow, but not long afterwards — let’s see — the airfield was rather, one of the boggiest sort of places, very — and it wasn’t very suitable for the aircraft or they didn’t seem to be and they decided to close it down and they moved us to, well, to various OTUs all over the place and ours was the one to, our group went to, er, Lichfield, which was 27 OTU, that was. And as a matter of fact, that was a very good base to get to because they were mostly Canadians and Australians there and, of course, the food was a lot better than what we’d been used to. Obviously they were getting a lot more imported food from somewhere, anyway, for them particularly, the Canadians there. And it was a very good base to work, and my flight commander was an Australian as well, Squadron Leader McIntyre. I’ll always remember him. And that’s where we finished our OTU with him. Not long after being in Lichfield, I was having problems, or we were having a bit of problem with the navigator a little bit, because my fixes and bearings that I was getting on the radio weren’t, tying, tying up completely with the position the navigator was getting on his, on his Gee chart and I thought it must be me. I kept double checking everything I was doing and couldn’t find what I was going, doing wrong but, anyway, one morning coming back after a training flight — quite a long flight it was, about 4.30 in the morning we got back — and, er, the navigation officer was waiting outside the aircraft for us and he said, ‘I want you all in my office.’ he said, ‘Before you have your breakfast.’ And, er, he said to the navigator, he said to go through his chart again, with his fixes and that, and what he was getting on this Gee, Gee reading. You had to get two readings and you got different coloured lines [inaudible] on the Gee chart and he was going along each one with a pencil and then coming back again, taking quite some considerable time really, whereas he should, should be able to do it a few seconds but he was taking quite a long time doing it. He said, ‘What are you doing that for?’ He said, ‘I can’t see the different coloured lines.’ And that was the answer to his problem, you see.
DK: I’m assuming he was colour blind or —
AO: He was colour blind, yep. Yeah, he was colour blind, yeah, and —
DK: I mean it should have been identified earlier, in his medicals?
AO: Yeah. In fact they checked his records, the, the, er, navigation leader checked his records and, of all things, it was recorded in his medicals and he was only to be trained as a navigator but, of course, when he, when he joined up it didn’t matter. I suppose that he was colour blind but, of course, when Gee came out, it did and he just couldn’t tell the difference. The reds and greens, I think he was confused completely you know.
DK: Yes. Colour blind is reds and greens.
AO: And he just could not — and that’s why it was taking such long a long time then, of course, to get his fixes. By, by the time he got his fix sorted out, we’d travelled probably another ten or twelve miles or more, yeah. So we had another, er, a spare navigator then. He, he had come from Pep— yeah, from Peplow with us actually, he had been, and he was the sole survivor of a mid-air crash in Wellingtons. He was a fly— flying officer and he was a very, very — well, probably one of the best navigators I ever flew with. He was a very good navigator. He was a maths teacher, I think, before the war and, er, Flying Officer Junior, Jock Junior his name was, and he only flew a few trips but his nerves broke down again with him on, er, one very bad night, we had on a cross country trip and it was very wet, gale force winds were blowing, and we had a bit of trouble really getting back to base because we were facing a head wind of over a hundred miles an hour, sort of thing, in this gale, you know, at that height and unfortunately he cracked up completely after that. So, so we had to get another navigator then, that was our third one, to start all over again and this — we’d already been in OTU, how long now? I’m trying to think back now, probably, er, six weeks probably, another month or two, yeah, we’d been in OTU nearly three months at that stage. We should have been finishing it nearly. We got an Australian navigator then and that seemed fine but, of course, had to go through the whole course again with the navigator and, er, it was the end of the year or early January before we finished our OUT, then, at Huddersfield. Early January ‘45 that would have been. And we went from there then, at that period, into a Conversion Unit, Heavy Conversion Unit. He wants the name there.
DK: OK. OK.
AO: Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme, onto Lancasters, and that was a different aircraft altogether, you know, a different world completely from the Wellington. I wasn’t all that keen on the Wellington because we’d had so many problems and so many losses at OTU, [inaudible] the casualty rate was horrendous sometimes.
DK: Was that your first close-up of a Lancaster then, was it?
AO: Yeah, in Lindholme, yes it was.
DK: What was your first impressions when you saw it?
AO: Yes because it was a very big aircraft too. Your first impression as you walk up to it, you know, a massive thing. And the first flight or two I had — it was a different thing altogether. It was a beautiful aircraft to fly in, comfortable and —
DK: Did you feel more confident?
AO: Oh, far more confident. A lot more, yes. The Wellington had been, been troublesome. We’d had lots of problems with them, you know, maintenance-wise, where probably the aircraft were worn out, most of them, as well but there was a lot of problems with them. And as soon as you got in a Lancaster — I remember one of the first flights I had to do very early on, was with another pilot who was taking another trainee pilot with him. For some reason they got me as a wireless operator because he couldn’t fly multi-engine aircraft. They had a wireless operator, of course, in them days. That was one of the [inaudible] you had to be, so they got me out of the office somehow and I went off with them on this flight and I always remember the, the feathering engines in turn for practicing and it was still a stable aircraft, you know, altogether and they feathered, I think it was, it was three engines eventually, and then the very first one that they started, failed to start so they had to get the other two started quickly —
DK: At one point you were flying on one engine?
AO: On one engine, yes. But it was still, it was still manageable that was, that aircraft, yes. You would, er, you would probably have travelled, according to the instructor, quite a distance but losing height gradually, it would have gone quite a long way on the one engine. But, anyway, they got the other two engines going and we made a landing on three engines with no problem at all. And I heard them saying that the balance was — wasn’t a lot different to the full engines from losing one engine there on the one side and, possibly, if you lost both, both engines on one side I think it wouldn’t, I think the aircraft would still be manageable but you’d trim it, you know, to being able to fly it reasonably straight and level, yeah, but it was such a big improvement, you know, from the Wellington. It was a very big step, it was. And then, eventually, from Lindholme, we went then to — how long were we there, at Lindholme? I’m trying to think now, um, probably about a month or so I should think, at Lindholme. Yeah, it might have been longer, might have been six weeks, I should think, there at Lindholme altogether, because it was January, or late January, when we got there to start the training. And then at that stage, of course, there seemed to be a lot of air crew coming through the training system at that stage as well. There was a lot of us about and, er, I suppose they were looking for a base to send us to and they sent us to Sturgate for a short period, and it was a holding unit for air, for air crew. We were there only a few days. It didn’t seem many days before we were posted to Scampton, to 153 Squadron. But we settled in there very, very quickly, there was no — well, going from Lancaster to Lancaster, there was no problem. It was a good base, Scampton. Well it was one of the pre-war bases. A good building, good accommodation there, the food was excellent as well there and we were well looked after. And we had a Canadian wing commander, squadron commander there, er, Wing Commander Powley and, er, he met us, introduced himself to us as soon as we got there. But a lot of new crews came in, in March that — and I think it was the worst, probably the worst period in the history of the squadron, March and early April. We lost, in March alone, we lost seven Lancasters and the crews and there were two more Lancasters that were struck off charge. They were so badly damaged they weren’t worth repairing. As a matter of fact, my, a friend of mine, a Flight Lieutenant Wheeler (he was a pilot), I remember him saying — I think it was about that period when he had a third, very bad mishap. He was shot at by night fighters and I think the third one, I think he had to leave it. He had to make a forced landing back of the lines in Belgium and got back about three days later. And I remember, what was his name? Flight, Flight Lieutenant Baxter, the engineering officer, er, going out the mess one morning and having breakfast where Wheeler was, and his crew members with him, or two or three of them were, having breakfast there and he tapped, and Baxter tapped him on the shoulder just as he was going out and said, ‘Wheeler, if you’re going to carry on like this I’m going to start charging you.’ He said. [laugh] I always remember that bit. And then, of course, our very, our first raid — well, I’ll go back to where we were losing these aircraft and Powley then decided to put his name down on the next battle order and, er, I think he felt morale probably getting — people were getting a bit jumpy, all these losses in, in one month. And, unfortunately for Powley, he took John Gees crew and he was shot down, well, a few days later. Early April that was, in, er, on a mining trip. And on another aircraft, Flight Lieutenant Winder was with him, a deputy flight commander. He — they were both lost. Two out of five aircraft went and two were lost and he was one of them and then, a few days later, we, er, I went on a Kiel raid then, that was our first trip out that was on —
DK: That, that was your first operation?
AO: Our very first trip, yep.
DK: How, how did you feel before that as your first operation? Can you remember your sort of feelings of —
AO: Yes, I was just feeling anxious to get on with the job as much as anything, get the war over with, sort of thing because we could see the war was coming to an end, at that stage, and we’d just started as well having, er, lectures on survival. And the Tiger Force were planning to go out there, to the Far East, of course, at that time. It would have been just about that period it would have been, early April time, I suppose when we —
DK: So, um, Tiger Force was actually mentioned quite early on then, before the defeat of Germany?
AO: Well, before the defeat of Germany, definitely, yes it was. Yes, we were having it on — the plan was once Americans, I think if I remember rightly, it was a long time ago now, but once Okinawa was cleared, you know, of Japanese that was, sort of, one of the nearest islands we’d get to get near Japan. That was the idea of it, I think, initially. We wouldn’t have very far to travel from Okinawa.
DK: So, you were always expecting, after Germany, you’d go out to the Far East?
AO: Yeah, within a short period of time we thought, you see, yeah, within —
DK: Sorry, I’m interrupting there, but back to Kiel as your first raid and after that —
AO: Yes, after that. Yeah, the first raid, as I say, we went to Kiel and, um, I always remember that, because obviously, the first one very well and we were carrying, I think, twelve or fourteen five hundred pounders and a four thousand pounder and then it might have been four two fifties, I think it was, two fifty pounders. They were armour piercing bombs. The idea was, we were after the submarine pens ideally [cough] and then I remember the approach of it very well. We hadn’t met much ak-ak fire on the way, one or two, particularly as you turned. We turned different legs, zig zag course, of course. We didn’t go direct to Kiel but did a zig-zag course to it, of course, and we did come across ak-ak fire in one or two places we weren’t pleased with, but getting to Kiel seemed very quiet and I could see the time was, zero time was coming up for our target time, and there was no sign of the master bomber and there was nothing at all, and I could see pretty well in the dark, but there were no markers or anything going down and there was the one searchlight, a stationary searchlight, immediately in front of us. I always remember it was a master searchlight which has a bluish tinge to it and, um, I thought, ‘I don’t like the looks of that at all.’ It was directly in front of us, in our flight, and a few miles ahead and before we got to it, it went off, switched off, and blow me, immediately we got over it, it switched itself back on again and we were caught right in the middle of the beam and, of course, the other searchlights came on to us and we were caught in the beam. But at that stage we’d started our bomb run from the Kiel canal and we were going up to the submarine pens, but still no markers going down. But just at that point, as well, everything seemed to happen at once. The master, master, bomber’s voice came over to bomb the centre of the greens. We saw the markers going down and he said immediately bomb, bomb the centre of the greens, so we carried on with our, er, bombing run, got it completed and, of course, once the bombs had gone, been released, from the Lanc, I felt the four thousand bomber go because that was under my feet because I was standing on my — on the seat above me. I felt that actually go because the aircraft just went.
DK: Could you feel the aircraft go?
AO: Yeah. We had several probably, and two or three under my feet and then, um, we went to corkscrew immediately after. We didn’t have time to take a photograph of the actual — from a photoflash and, er, we corkscrewed out of that one and we dropped about two or three thousand feet and, for some reason, all the searchlights went off all of a sudden. The master searchlight went off. Whether the power plant had been hit, that’s the only thing I can think of, but why would a power plant supply all the other different searchlights as well? I don’t know why they went off but they did.
DK: You’d think there’d be a separate supply, wouldn’t you?
AO: Yeah. You’d thought so but I don’t know, never did find out. But I was just glad to get out of the master searchlight. That was the main thing because he’d locked on to us, you see, with a radar controlled searchlight. And then from, as I say, once that had gone off we gradually pulled out of the, er, pulled out of this corkscrew and gradually climbed back on to course again to fly, to fly over sort of Denmark, to the North Sea. And while pulling out, oddly enough, we were flying back over Denmark, over Kattegat, and it was just where our squadron commander was shot down a few nights before. I didn’t know that at the time, I found that out afterwards. And then we got back, you know, and no aircraft were lost, not in our squadron, anyway, that night, but there was a few, quite a few others got shot down but we all got back safely. And then, er, I eventually carried on from there to — I was going to say, on the Tiger Force but, er, we were still having these lectures, not many, just a few. I can’t even remember how many we had now but there were a few of them. And mainly if you were shot down in the jungle, what to eat, what not to eat, jungle survival, in other words. And then, on the, around the 21st the April, I’m pretty sure that was about the right date, when Lord Trenchard came to visit the base, you know, to give us a pep talk, supposedly. Well, at that period we were still doing some practice dropping of food supplies for Holland, you know, for the Manna drops. We, we were certainly doing them at that stage. We’d just about got it sorted out by then because there was some mistakes made. One of them was, a week or two before Lord Trenchard came — I’m trying to think of the guy’s name, Flight Lieutenant — oh dear, dear. He only died two or three years ago. His name will come to me in a minute. Langford, his name was. He went off to do a demonstration at an airfield to show some top brass how it was done, and he went badly wrong, unfortunately.
DK: Was that dropping food?
AO: Dropping the food supplies that was, yep. I don’t know what sort of containers he was dropping because I wasn’t there at that point, but I know it went badly wrong. I don’t know what happened but, er, he nearly dropped it all on the staff car and all the brass had to run for their lives [laugh] and get out the way. But anyway, by the time Lord Trenchard came, about 21st of April we’d got it and we gave a demonstration for him in the morning, er, and I’m trying — now I can’t remember whether we had our parade before then or after. Oh, I think it was after then, we did this demonstration for the food dropping for him, the Manna drop, when Lord Trenchard came for that bit for the day and I remember we had to put our best uniforms on, of course, you know, all these buttons and brass, badge and everything else, all of us to greet him on the parade ground and he inspected us on, on the parade ground. Late in the morning that was, and we gave a demonstration for him which went very well, on food dropping, to give him some idea how it would work. Then, after lunch that day, he, um, he give us this talk in the station cinema. He had, he had — by then there was another squadron at Scampton, 625 had arrived, only, not many days, or a week or two before. So there was two squadrons based there and we all had to pile into the station cinema and he, um, gave us this pep talk to congratulate us on the work that we’d been doing and so forth, and then he said, ‘Anybody think [inaudible] time on Tiger Force, I’m afraid you won’t be going off, not, not immediately’ he said, ‘because if the Russians don’t stop in Berlin, Bomber Command will be the first line of defence, you know, as a reserve there, so we’re holding you back into reserve for that period.’ So, I thought, ‘Blow me. That’s my Far East trip has gone to pot now then.’ That’s the first thing I thought straight away.
DK: Was there a, a genuine worry, then, that the, the Russians would have kept going west?
AO: Well, there was, there was quite a bit of talk in the mess about it which — and there was, there was a fear of it, that the Russians would not stop there. They’d keep going west. And, er, I think Patton had got that idea as well and I think he was prepared for it, General Patton. I think he was —
DK: How did that make you feel then, that there could have been a continuing war, not just the Germans but the Russians and then the Japanese?
AO: Yes, we thought the European war would never be done because I could see the Russians would have taken some beating, although at least by that stage we had a lot American fighters for protection at that stage as well, which was quite good, er, and in quite large numbers as well and also the latest Spitfires, of course, with the Griffin engines and that in them. They were a better aircraft altogether for defence and escort and that’s why I thought going to the Far East, I thought it would have been fine going to the Far East because, obviously, the defence of Japan was nothing like the Germans had and also the Americans had a very good escort, a fighter escort there. But anyway, that had to go to pot, that idea, out of our heads anyway. And we didn’t have a lot more lectures after that regarding the, the Tiger Force. It went very quiet around I remember. I don’t remember having many after because that put the tin hat on it, I suppose you might say.
DK: Obviously Tiger Force never came about because of the dropping of atomic bombs, did that make you sort of feel — how, how did that make you feel that the war wasn’t going to continue in the Far East?
AO: Well, you see, we were still hoping to go to the Far East, of course, until the atomic bomb was dropped but, er, when things settled down in Europe as it — much better than they anticipated I think, at the time, because if the Russians still kept going it would have been a huge problem obviously. But, er, of course, at that stage the, military-wise, we were pretty strong and the Americans were, of course, at that stage so that we just couldn’t see the Russians making much of an advance with the opposition that we’d got in front of them, particularly the air power as well on our side at that stage, and anyway we were still hoping to be able to go to the Far East, oh, right until probably end of, end July, early August. When was the atomic bomb? Middle of August, something like that.
DK: Early August the bomb was dropped.
AO: Once they dropped the atomic bomb and that was it. I thought, ‘That’s it, the war’s finished now.’ That’s —
DK: How did you feel at that point, relief?
AO: Yes, I suppose. I don’t know the feeling I had about that because we were quite happy, I certainly was, I was quite happy with the Air Force life. I hoped to stop in it for quite a while.
DK: How many operations did you actually do over Europe?
AO: I only did seven all together, yep.
DK: And were Manna drops —
AO: Manna drops as well, but the Manna drops, the very last one actually was on May the 8th , and if you look on, on the internet you can find out through Pathe News records there’s a Lancaster flying over St Paul’s cathedral on VE Day morning and, oddly enough, it’s got to be us going over St Paul’s because when — after briefing that morning, I remember my pilot said, ‘I’ve just had a word with the squadron commander,’ he said, ‘and I’ve asked him for permission to fly over London this morning to see if there’s any celebrations going on.’ And he said, ‘Yes, no problem at all, so long as you behave yourselves, you know.’ And, er, we flew down over London that morning, early morning, and you can find out on, on the internet these days and it’s got to be Lancaster ‘C’ Charlie from 153 Squadron. I’m pretty sure it’s that one and we were on our last journey to Holland, on our very last trip on VE Day morning, and of course the end of the war came back and I don’t remember —
DK: Just going back to the Manna drops do you remember, um, seeing the Dutch people?
AO: Oh yes, the Manna trip, very much so, yes, particularly on the — well, the first one was a race course in, um, in the Hague was the very first one, and then, yes, the last one wasn’t — and then the rear gunner said next time I’m going to take my camera and take some shots, you see, because we were flew very, very low level at that stage. You can read the time on the church clock as we went by, you know. We were low enough for that.
DK: The only reason I say that because I met, a few years ago, a Dutch lady, who was a girl at that time, and she was in awe of the RAF coming over dropping the food. She was only eight or nine at the time and she said she was reduced to eating tulip bulbs and daffodil bulbs and said, you know, seeing the planes come over and the Germans who were still there not firing on you. That was a huge relief to her.
AO: Yes. Yes, they had the ak-ak guns silenced. You can see the guns traversing round following us, you see, but they didn’t fire and, um, I saw several Germans of course, with their rifles on their shoulders, you know, bicycling about on the roads and that. I saw two or three of those about and, er, as I said, but the Dutch people there, how they didn’t get injured I’m sure. They were running on the fields, picking food sometimes, and the food was dropping round them, some of them, particularly in Rotterdam that was, more than the Hague I think, if I remember rightly, because the next three drops was at, at Rotterdam it was and the last one of the war was on VE Day morning was at, er, at the Hague, that was the racecourse at the Hague, yeah. But there was, they were waving to us, you know, and cheering like mad, the Dutch people were, and rushing on the field, on the edge of the food, picking this food up and it was still dropping from the air.
DK: It must have been a marvellous sight, seeing you come over, dropping the food?
AO: Yeah, it must have been for them to see all these aircraft coming close together, you know, and very, very low level, about two hundred feet or —
DK: What she said to me, she said that what, what really gave them confidence was looking, seeing the Germans not firing on your aircraft and knowing it would all be over soon.
AO: Yeah, but the biggest shock I had really, on looking back on that, was how much of Holland was under water, been flooded and it was dreadful, it really was. Why the Germans did that, at that stage of the war, when the war was more or less lost, and then to breach the dykes like they did. It looked to me as if half of Holland was under water, you know, but you could see vast areas of it, just farm houses, you know sticking up, and that’s where they were. Yeah.
DK: So the war’s ended now, um, how, how did your RAF career go on after that? Were you in the RAF for much longer?
AO: I stayed in till the following year. We, we were fortunate because we were — they picked several crews out. I think it was, how many? Eight or ten crews, to do field trials, or user trials, on H2S Mark 4. Yeah, we went, started on that, just about when the atom bomb was dropped there. Once the end of the war came then we were transferred under that, more or less straight away, to do that work and then the Squadron, 153 Squadron and 46 was disbanded in September, I think it was, September ’45 and I don’t know what happened to a lot of the crews but we were, the ones that had been chosen to do the field trails on H2S Mark 4, we were transferred to 12 Squadron at Binbrook.
DK: And was this your entire crew that moved over so they were all the same guys?
AO: Yeah, Ted Miles our navigator, was an Australian and —
DK: So you got yet another navigator [slight laugh]?
AO: Yeah, we had to get another navigator at that stage, yep, and Mark Bass, he went but, oddly enough, I think just before the end of war, as I understood it from [inaudible] I had been recommended for a commission, and also my navigator had as well, and he was — but, of course, the end of the war came and the Air Force more or less put everything on hold regarding, er, any promotions at that stage because, obviously, there was a lot of surplus crews about all over the place, all over the world virtually, and then the Australians and Canadians, the bulk of those would be going home. Well, Mark, my navigator, he went to, to pick his commission up. His was, er, carried through. He had to go to London, I suppose, to the, to the Australian — what do you call the —
DK: The embassy?
AO: Well, yeah. Not the embassy, you called them. Well, I’m trying to think what they called them in them days, but anyway, he picked up his, um, commission up and he, he didn’t come back to squadron again. He, you know, more or less went straight back to Australia on the next boat home I think, so he didn’t stay here long at all. So, unfortunately, we didn’t see him to — see him before he went, you know. We assumed he was coming back from London but that wasn’t the case, unfortunately, and then we had another navigator, of course, from then onwards, and another spare one, because all, as I say, nearly all the Canadians and Australians went back. But our signals leader, who I was very friendly with, was a New Zealander but he stayed on to the end, until the squadron disbanded. But what happened to him after that I don’t know because we went off to Binbrook and he went in another direction somewhere and, er, we stayed there at Binbrook then until ’46 before the trials had finished, all these H2S trials.
DK: Where were the trials done then? The H2S Mark 4 trials?
AO: Yeah this was, this — we finished the trials. Most of them were — well, we went all over the country doing the trials, all over the place, in all weather conditions as well. Also taking a lot of photographs of the screen itself to record the various towns and cities all over the country as well.
DK: Just in the UK?
AO: Mostly in the UK, yeah. And, er, when that was finished some — I came out then. I was under, under Class B, because they wanted me back home, unfortunately. Class B was a reserved occupational status again. I should have came back and agriculture came back very early compared with some of the other crew and they stayed on. They were on Lincolns then, flew on Lincolns.
DK: How did you feel about leaving the RAF at that point?
AO: I wasn’t very happy, no. No, well, I was quite happy where I was. I was doing a flying job there, which I thoroughly enjoyed, flying quite often, not every day but quite very often anyway and I was quite happy to stay in the Air Force and, er, I was considering a life probably in the Air Force but anyway they wanted me back home again. Let’s see, my father had died 1940, then my sister in ‘44 and I think it left my mother in a rather tight hole, so there was nothing for it but for me to come back home farming and I then stuck to farming the rest of my life.
DK: So how old were you by the time the war had finished then?
AO: I’d be twenty-one in, um, in end of, end of November ‘45.
DK: Not even twenty-one? [slight laugh]
AO: [slight laugh] Yes, yes.
DK: So, from then onwards was, has your life been on the farm?
AO: Yes, mostly I’ve been on the farm since then, yep, but same farm. I came to this house here, I came here in 1957 I came here, so I’ve been here ever since.
DK: Have you, have you remained in touch with your crew at all or —
AO: Yes. I keep touch. As I say, my navigator died about four or five years ago but I was constantly in touch and went to visit him in Australia as well. And my pilot is still alive. He lives in Majorca at the moment, but unfortunately the poor chap’s got Parkinson’s disease and he’s very, very deaf as well, probably due to the Lancaster engine noise, probably. I don’t know. And the other, the rear gunner, I was in touch with him. I picked — I lost contact with him altogether. He was in the farming world and I picked him up about — not far from Duxford, he lived in the end of the days but his life was a bit of a tragedy. He’d been adopted and his life was messed up completely and going from one place to another and had a lot of problems with family life and he died a few years ago. I did go and visit him a year or two before he died. And then the rest of the crew I haven’t been touch at all with them. I say, I knew, once, the bomb aimer, Norman Kirkman. He was a professional footballer before the war. I think Preston or Burnley, one or the other. Preston I think it was, and he came to, er, visit on a weekend in Leeds with my old pilot. But me and the pilot, old pilot and navigator, were the only ones in touch all the time, constantly in touch, while we could and were healthy enough to travel about. And Bill Edmonds came from Australia each year for several years to the reunion in Lincoln.
DK: Do you still attend the union— reunions, the reunions for your squadron, do you still attend those?
AO: Yes. We used to travel — when they first had them at the war. They started the reunions more or less after the end of the war and I missed the out first ones few to start with and they used to travel about to different parts of the country each year, er, in February-time. And then my first one was about, around about, 1956 I went to Doncaster. They had one there. And from then onwards it — a great lot of guys to be with, of course, been with them during the war years and they were good company to be with, all these fellas, you know. And, um, from then onwards we went to — oh, we went to Grimsby twice, er, Grimsby, then Cleethorpes, er, and then we decided then travelling was so bad in the winter, February-time. We were caught in a very bad winter there and we decided to have it a bit later in the year, in May, and stick to Lincoln and have it in the — what was the Grand Hotel in Lincoln. Because The Saracen’s Head was the place we used to mostly to congregate mostly in Lincoln of course, near the bridge there but it’s not any more. I don’t know what it is these days now. The other place we’d congregate, if you could get through the door, because it was packed with aircrew all the time. But then I stuck to farming life then for, for right up until twenty years ago, twenty-odd years ago. I retired then when I was sixty-five, twenty-five, twenty-six years ago coming up now it is, yeah.
DK: How do you feel now looking back after all these years about, you know, your period with the Air Force and Bomber Command is it something you, you know, you look at with pride and [inaudible]
AO: Yes. It was, it was a period of my life I wouldn’t have missed it for anything, that period of my life, yep. It was a good eye opener and also for me to meet an awful lot of people, you know.
DK: OK. I’ll stop there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Taff Owen
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-03
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AOwenA150603
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:52:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Aneurin ‘Taff’ Owen was born neat Dolgellau, near Penmaenpool in Wales, and joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18 in 1942. Taff was a farmer’s son and as such was put into a reserved occupation, so some of the areas of the Royal Air Force were not open to him. He became a wireless operator/air gunner after his training in 1942. He tells of his sighting of his first aircraft at the age of nine and of seeing a travelling flying circus, which fanned his love of flying. Whilst he was training, he flew in Dominie biplanes before progressing onto Proctors. He tells of flying in Ansons and going to 27 Operational Training Unit in RAF Lichfield flying in Wellington bombers before serving in a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Lindholme on Lancaster. He then transferred to 153 Squadron based at RAF Scampton. His tells about his first trip which was an operation on the submarine pens in Kiel and he tells of his training for Operation Manna and the food drops into the fields in Holland. He also says that the image on Pathe News showing a Lancaster flying over St Paul’s on VE Day is the Lancaster he was in at the time. He tells of catching chicken pox and having to repeat his courses, his problems with a navigator who was colour blind, and the heavy losses experienced at the Operational Training Unit. After the war, in 1946, despite wanting to stay in the Air Force, he returned to farming, retiring when he was 65 years of age.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Kiel
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-08
153 Squadron
27 OTU
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
demobilisation
Dominie
Gee
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military living conditions
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Lichfield
RAF Lindholme
RAF Peplow
RAF Scampton
RAF West Freugh
RAF Yatesbury
recruitment
searchlight
submarine
Tiger force
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/901/11438/APaineFE160824.2.mp3
78a14c6c091927f90c6934cc58801a9d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jenkinson, Peter and Leslie
Peter Raeburn Jenkinson
P R Jenkinson
Leslie Philip Jenkinson
L P Jenkinson
Description
An account of the resource
111 items. The collection concernes Leslie Philip Jenkinson (b. 1923, 13314603 Royal Air Force) and Flight Sergeant Peter Raeburn Jenkinson DFM (1921 - 1945, 1826262 Royal Air Force) and an oral history interview with Evelyn Paine who discusses the service of her brothers. There are two sub-collections containing a total of 110 items pertaining to each brother. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1764">Peter Jenkinson</a> flew operations as a flight engineer with 166 and 153 Squadrons and was killed 28 January 1945.<br /><br /><span><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1763">Philip Jenkinson</a> flew operations as a mid-upper gunner on 10 Squadron. He was shot down on 6 September 1943 and taken prisoner.</span><br /><br /><span data-contrast="none" class="TextRun SCXW24604530 BCX0" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW24604530 BCX0">Additional information on Peter Jenkinson is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/112119/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Evelyn Paine and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW24604530 BCX0" data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":200,"335559740":276}"> </span>
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jenkinson, LP-PR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 24th of August 2016. I’m in the house of Evelyn Paine who is the sister of the person we’re doing a proxy interview for — Philip Jenkinson. One of two brothers. And he joined the RAF in 1941 but what are your, Evelyn your earliest recollections of your brother and how did he come to join the RAF?
EP: Well, I’m not really sure.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Well, where, where did the family live?
EP: [unclear] Farm in Falmouth.
CB: Where? In Falmouth. Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Right. So where did he go to school?
EP: At St Breward in North Cornwall because we lived there at the time.
CB: Right. And what did your parents do?
EP: Well, they’d both sort of retired. Mum. They didn’t do anything.
CB: Farming?
EP: No. No.
CB: No. They weren’t?
EP: No.
CB: Ok.
EP: Just retired.
CB: And so everybody went to school locally.
EP: Pardon?
CB: Everybody went to school locally.
EP: Yes. Yes.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And what was that school? Was it a —
EP: A council school.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Secondary school?
EP: No. I don’t think so.
CB: And what age did Philip leave school?
EP: At fourteen.
CB: And then what did he do?
EP: Farming. He went for poultry farming.
CB: And what was he doing as a poultry farmer?
EP: Well, I suppose picking up eggs and cleaning the chickens out and one thing like that I suppose.
CB: And how long did he do that for?
EP: Until ’41 when he went into the air force.
CB: Ok. But before that he’d volunteered hadn’t he?
EP: Yes.
CB: What did he do?
EP: Well, he joined the LDV.
CB: Yeah. What does that mean?
GP: Local Defence Volunteers.
EP: Yes.
GP: Home guard.
CB: What was it?
EP: [laughs] What was it?
GP: Local Defence Volunteers.
EP: Look.
CB: Local.
EP: Local.
GP: Defence volunteers.
CB: Local Defence Volunteers.
GP: Really the Home Guard.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And what did he do in being an LDV member?
EP: I’m not sure. He went off in the evenings to do something. Drills I suppose. Watched the bridges and things like that.
CB: Yeah. They were on guard duty.
EP: On guard duty. Yes.
CB: And did he discuss it regularly with you?
EP: No.
CB: Or did he keep it all very quiet.
EP: Yeah. Keep it very —
CB: Yeah. So the war started and he was still on the chicken farm.
EP: Yes.
CB: So at what age did he volunteer to join the RAF?
EP: In ’41. What age you could be. Twenty three.
CB: Eighteen.
EP: Eighteen. Something like that.
CB: So, what prompted him to do that?
EP: Well, because he was, because he was sent from the farm to volunteer. The three of them.
CB: Ah three. Who were they?
EP: Well, blokes that were working the farm.
CB: Other farm workers.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So what did they do? The three of them.
EP: I don’t know.
CB: And how, how did they decide? You said just now.
EP: I think that —
CB: How did they decide what to do?
EP: I think they, whoever they went to see I suppose.
CB: So there were three of them.
EP: The recruiting officers.
CB: And who decided which of the forces to go in?
EP: I think the person who interviewed them. I suppose.
CB: So what happened? One went in the — you said earlier.
EP: Yes. One in the navy, one in the army and one air force. And Philip was the air force.
CB: Right. So then what did he do?
EP: I don’t really know. He —
CB: They sent him —
EP: Then he went to Reading. I don’t know whether — did he go up to Lloyds?
CB: Went to Lord’s.
EP: Lords.
CB: Because —
GP: Lord’s Cricket Ground.
CB: That was the Lords Reception Centre.
EP: Yes. And I don’t really know what he did after that.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
EP: Now, the thing is one of the ships going to Canada was cut in half with the Queen Mary wasn’t it? Somehow.
GP: That’s right.
CB: Ok. So we’ll come to that in a mo. So, after he joined at Lords Cricket Ground where did he go?
EP: He went to Newquay.
CB: Ok. Which was an Initial Training Wing.
EP: Yes.
CB: And how long was he there?
EP: About three months I think.
CB: And that’s on — down in Cornwall.
EP: Yes. Down in Cornwall. Yes.
CB: And then he was sent where?
EP: To Canada I think.
CB: Right. And how did that happen? How did he go?
EP: By boat. That one.
CB: Which one?
EP: What’s the name.
CB: The Cavina.
EP: Cavina.
CB: So what happened there? There was something about the boats. What happened?
EP: When it was in Liverpool —
CB: Right.
EP: The boat he was going over on was cut in half with the Queen Mary because she ran into it.
CB: Oh. But he wasn’t, he wasn’t on that.
EP: No. No.
GP: Very careless.
CB: Very careless. Yeah. And so what did they have to do?
EP: They waited for another boat. But for how long I don’t know.
CB: No. And when they went to Canada then they went where? In to —
EP: Winnipeg.
CB: Ok. And what happened at Winnipeg?
EP: I suppose he just did his training I suppose.
CB: Ok. So we’re, what was he training to do?
EP: Air gunner.
CB: And so that was a mixture of ground work and air to air.
EP: Suppose so.
CB: And training to be an air gunner what, what did they do there?
EP: [laughs] Fire.
CB: Ok. So how did the training go for air gunnery? What did they do?
EP: I suppose flying and shooting.
CB: Doing what?
EP: Flying and shooting.
CB: Yeah. But on the ground first what did they do?
GP: On the range.
CB: So they did, they did clay pigeon shooting.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Rifle shooting.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And the flying. What was that? What type of shooting did they do there?
EP: Don’t know.
CB: Against a target towed by another plane.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And when he came back from Canada where did he return to?
EP: I’m not sure.
CB: Liverpool?
EP: No. Oh, he went to — yes. He came back to Liverpool.
CB: Yeah. And then —
EP: Then I don’t know where he went from.
CB: Then he, then he went to a squadron.
EP: Yes.
CB: Right.
EP: That would be Melbourne.
CB: At Melbourne. Where’s that?
GP: 10 Squadron.
EP: Yorkshire.
CB: Right. And the squadron number?
GP: 10.
EP: 10.
CB: What were they flying?
EP: Halifaxes.
CB: And where was his position in the aircraft?
EP: Top. Yes.
GP: Mid-upper. Mid-upper.
EP: Mid-upper gunner.
CB: Ok. And so he then went on to operations.
EP: Yes. He did.
CB: And we’re now in 1943.
EP: And he did ten.
CB: Did he?
EP: And then he was shot down.
CB: Yeah. How? How did they come to be shot down?
EP: By, by another plane. By a — what was it? What was the plane that shot down?
GP: Oh —
CB: It was in the night was it?
EP: Yes. Night time.
GP: Yes.
CB: Ok. And —
GP: I’m not sure.
CB: Did they all get out or —
EP: No. Two were killed.
CB: Ok. Who were the ones killed?
EP: The bomb aimer. Not the bomb aimer. The rear gunner and the pilot.
CB: Ok. Do we know why that was?
EP: No.
CB: So —
GP: Sitting in the wrong seat.
CB: Yeah. So the, if the attacking aircraft had approached from behind it’s more likely that that’s how the rear gunner died.
EP: Yeah.
CB: But what about the pilot? What do you know about why he didn’t survive?
EP: Whether he stayed with the aircraft and he crashed I don’t know. I don’t really know.
CB: Ok.
GP: Yes. He may have stayed with it ‘til he was sure they were all out and then it was too late.
CB: Ok. So that’s —
GP: That was the usual pattern.
CB: That was the usual pattern.
EP: And Philip was loose for nine days before he was caught.
CB: Was he?
EP: Yeah.
CB: What was he doing for nine days?
EP: Well, he was hiding during the day and then walked around in the night time.
CB: Where to?
EP: He was hoping to get to Switzerland.
CB: So where was he shot down?
EP: At [pause] oh dear.
CB: Well, let’s start earlier. The raid was on which town? Who were they, where were they bombing?
EP: Munich.
CB: Munich. Right. Ok.
GP: Munich. Yeah.
CB: So this is on the way back is it or on the way there?
EP: It must have been on the way there because they’d jettisoned the bombs and one bomb went into a little church.
CB: Did it?
EP: And destroyed it. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Right. So he got out of the plane.
EP: Yes. With a parachute. But he doesn’t remember jumping.
CB: And he landed ok.
EP: Yes.
CB: So how did he know where he was going to go?
EP: He didn’t. Just hoped for the best.
CB: Right. Ok.
GP: We’ve done it on the map haven’t we? He nearly got, he nearly got into Switzerland. Just this side of the border and got caught.
EP: He got caught in [pause]
GP: Walked around the corner and there they were.
EP: Where was he caught?
GP: I should know this. I can see it on the map but I can’t remember the name.
CB: So, in practical terms —
GP: Nearly made it.
CB: He’d almost arrived. He got caught. Why?
GP: He was, well he just happened, he came around the corner.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Expected, not expecting to see anybody. There was, I think two Germans there, ‘For you the war is over.’
EP: And his bomb aimer. Both of them were together.
CB: Just the two of them. Right.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Ok.
EP: The other two were caught two days afterwards.
GP: He was only a very short distance from the border. Very short distance. Quarter of a mile.
EP: And Kevin, his navigator was caught straight away.
CB: Oh was he?
EP: By a policeman. Which I’ll tell you in a minute.
CB: Ok. So the aircraft itself landed where?
EP: At the farm we go to —
CB: Right. Which is?
EP: At Leeder.
GP: There’s a photo in there.
CB: What? What’s —
GP: Of the cell he was put in.
CB: What’s, what’s the town that’s nearest?
EP: Landsberg.
CB: Right. Landsberg. Landsberg’s the town. Ok. So let’s talk about, they’ve landed. Then what? He’s gone off on his own.
EP: He buried, he buried his parachute.
CB: Yeah.
EP: And then they started walking. And he thinks the first night they went around in a circle because the dogs started barking in the village and he had to sort of dodge. Dodge that.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. So then what?
EP: Then he started walking. Walked. He walked at night time. Hid at night err during the day.
CB: What sort of places did they hide in?
EP: Woods. Or where ever they could. And they did because the bomb aimer didn’t bring any rations so they shared their rations and then they sort of ate, ate carrots. Whatever they could find. Carrots and turnips or anything. And of course they had water from the streams.
CB: So, what time of year is this?
EP: Hmmn?
CB: What time of year?
EP: What time what?
CB: What time of year is this?
EP: September.
CB: Right.
EP: September the 6th, 7th
CB: 1943.
EP: Yeah.
CB: So, when he got caught, the two of them got caught then what happened?
EP: They were sent to a prisoner of war camp. First of all they were put in a cell for the night. And then —
GP: We’ve got a photo of the cell haven’t we?
EP: Hmmn?
GP: We’ve got a photo of the cell he was put in. Yeah.
CB: Ok. We’ll look at the photo of the cell.
EP: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok. So then what? Put in a cell —
EP: He went to the prisoner of war camp.
CB: Where was that?
EP: In Poland wasn’t it?
GP: Pardon?
EP: Poland wasn’t it?
GP: Poland I think.
EP: Poland I think.
GP: Yes. It was. Yeah.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And what rank was he at that time?
EP: I don’t know. He came back as a warrant officer. So what —
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah. So —
GP: [unclear]
EP: Whether he was a warrant officer before he went I don’t know.
CB: Right. And what was it like in the prisoner of war camp for him?
EP: It wasn’t too bad at all. Yeah. They used to bribe the Germans with chocolates and things because first of all you know they gave them a piece of chocolate, ‘Will you please bring me a screw?’ Or something like that. And then they made a wireless with, because once the Germans did something they couldn’t report it so they bribed him.
GP: Crafty.
EP: Yeah. Yes. Philip said the sweets and chocolates were very useful from the Red Cross parcels.
CB: Which parcels did they come in?
EP: Hmmn?
CB: Which parcels did they arrive in?
EP: In the Red Cross parcels.
CB: Right.
EP: Yeah.
CB: How often did they get a Red Cross parcel?
EP: Not very often. No.
CB: No. Ok. So —
EP: Once every three months or even more. I don’t quite —
CB: Do you know what —
EP: They took a long time to get over there.
CB: Yeah. What sort of, what was in the parcels?
[recording paused]
CB: This is a contents statement for the British Red Cross Society parcels. And it says pyjamas, towels, face cloth, toothbrush, warm shoes, scarf, wool gloves, leather — looks interesting. So, he’s in the prisoner of war camp in Poland. How did they occupy themselves during that time?
EP: Doing embroidery and things. He did a lot of embroidery.
CB: What sort of things?
EP: Tea cosies and tapestries.
GP: Gloves?
EP: Yes.
CB: Ok.
EP: Knitting and all that sort of thing.
CB: Ok. So the —
EP: And when they moved they took, everything they’d already done they left behind, they took things that weren’t finished.
CB: You’re talking about the end when they — who, who liberated?
EP: When they moved they —
CB: Who liberated them?
GP: They were moved.
EP: Desert Rats.
GP: To another camp.
CB: Oh they went to another camp did they?
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yes. When they went to, I think he went to four different camps I think.
CB: Did he?
EP: Yeah.
CB: So he was there, because he was there for two years.
EP: Eighteen months.
CB: Eighteen months. Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: So how did they get out of the last camp?
EP: The Desert Rats opened the gate and they all went out.
CB: Right.
EP: The Germans fled. They didn’t see them.
GP: I think they walked.
CB: So what happened? The, the gates were opened. Then what happened? How did he get back?
EP: They just walked out and they — didn’t it? For two days they didn’t do anything. Just stayed there. They had no food or anything. But what happened after that I don’t know.
CB: Right.
EP: Yeah.
GP: I think they walked west.
CB: So, how did he get back to England?
EP: He flew back to England.
CB: Where from?
EP: I don’t really know where from.
GP: Don’t know where from.
EP: Because he wanted to fly back.
CB: Did he?
EP: Yes. He wasn’t, he wasn’t coming back in a boat.
CB: Well, if you’re a flying man you wouldn’t want to would you?
GP: No.
CB: Right. So the RAF programme for that was called Operation Exodus. And many of the crews picked up POWs from airfields in Belgium and took them to the UK.
EP: I don’t know whether he went to Belgium. Don’t think he ever went to Belgium.
CB: Might not have got that far. So when he got back then what happened? What did he do?
EP: He spent a lot time in hospital.
CB: Why?
EP: Don’t know where.
CB: No. Why? Why did he have to go to hospital?
EP: Because he was so thin. Yeah. And he wasn’t all that well.
GP: He wasn’t very nourished. Wasn’t nourished very well.
EP: Undernourished and —
CB: What was the effect of being in the prison camp then?
GP: Losing weight mostly wasn’t it?
EP: Yeah. Losing weight wasn’t it? I don’t think they had much food. He said the bread was put, sawdust in the bread they said.
GP: Fill you up. Yeah.
CB: Ok. So he got back. Went into hospital. How long was he in hospital for?
EP: Oh. Quite a while. You know, now and then.
CB: How long is quite a while?
EP: Oh I don’t know. Three or four months I expect.
CB: Right. And then what did he do?
EP: Then he came home.
CB: Ok.
EP: He came home on leave.
CB: Then what?
EP: And then he went back. Don’t know where he went. To Melbourne would he?
GP: Pardon?
EP: Would he have gone back to his airport. Or where would he go?
GP: That’s when I met him wasn’t it? First. When he came back.
CB: So he went back to his airfield.
EP: I should think so.
GP: Yes. He did.
CB: Which was —
GP: He went —
CB: At Melbourne.
GP: He went back as a load master.
CB: Right.
GP: From 511. From 511 Squadron.
EP: I don’t know where he went then. That’s where you —
GP: Yes. Because I followed him there.
CB: You just happened to meet him there.
GP: I think I knew he was there but I was there and we were both there at one time. I was flying as second pilot and he was doing the freight. We were moving freight.
CB: To where?
GP: From Germany back here.
CB: Oh right.
EP: To, you went to India didn’t you?
GP: Pardon?
EP: India, didn’t you?
GP: Pardon?
EP: You went to India.
GP: I went to India. Went all over the place. Rhodesia, India.
CB: But he didn’t go there.
GP: No. I don’t think. No.
EP: No. I don’t think —
CB: So then he left the air force. When did he leave the air force?
EP: In ’48 I think. And then he went farming. Poultry farming.
CB: Right.
EP: At —
CB: Where he was before?
EP: No. At Swin —
GP: At AG Street’s place.
EP: Yes. Anthony. But where was that?
GP: You remember AG Street? The broadcaster. Farming. He went, he went —
EP: And then he left.
GP: He worked for him. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And he kept, he did that for the rest of his life did he? Or did he do something else?
EP: No. He went farming. I had a farm. And then he came and sort of took over.
CB: Right. So as far as the RAF is concerned then he’s his interest about the crash was rekindled for some reason.
EP: Yes.
CB: What was that?
EP: I don’t know.
CB: What prompted that?
EP: Well, it’s in, he said to me, ‘I’m going to Germany in ’83.’ And I said, ‘Why ever do you want to go to Germany in ’83?’ ‘Because,’ he says, ‘It’s forty years since I was shot down.’ So what he did, he rang up the Air Ministry and asked them where he crashed. And he said, well they didn’t really know but a bloke in Germany will tell you. And Philip wrote to him.
GP: Hans Grimminger.
EP: Hans Grimminger and I think Hans rang Philip up and said, ‘Oh yes. I know where your plane came down.’ And Philip said, ‘Well, I’m coming over in September.’ Same time. September 7th because, you know, the time he was shot down. And so he said, ‘Well, you’ve got to come and stay with me.’ So, we all stayed there and then evidently before we went over there he advertised in the paper, did anybody know about this plane? Which he got so I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you about it.
CB: Ok.
GP: I was speaking to Hans Grimminger this week on the phone.
EP: Wait a minute.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And now we’re looking, we’re looking at the cuttings specifically.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Related to that. Ok. So we’re in 1983.
GP: [unclear]
EP: Wait a minute I’ve got —
GP: Wonderful collection we have.
EP: There’s him in the cell. There’s that one.
CB: So what happened? So, he wrote. He wrote. And did he get responses? Or —
EP: Yes. Yes. Yes.
CB: What did he get?
EP: I don’t know what that photograph’s of.
CB: We’ll stop for a mo.
GP: He was put —
[recording paused]
CB: What — just going back a bit. What happened to the navigator?
EP: He was picked up straight away.
CB: What was his name?
EP: In the village. But he couldn’t do anything with his parachute because it was caught in the barbed wire. So he couldn’t do anything about his. And so evidently a policeman caught him. Rang up his party and said what, ‘I’ve got an airmen here. What do I do with him?’ So they said, ‘Well, if he’s an officer you don’t put him in a cell. You put him in one of your own beds.’ So Kevin was, there’s that’s the, that’s the policeman’s daughter, erm wife.
GP: Yeah.
EP: There’s the daughter who was turfed out of her bed so Kevin could go in. [unclear] so that’s that.
CB: So he went, he was put in that bed. Then what happened?
EP: And then he stayed there for the night and he was told to put his trousers outside the door so he wouldn’t run away. And then he was taken to a prisoner of war camp after that. The next day.
CB: And that was a different prisoner of war camp.
EP: Yes. Yes.
CB: From the others because he was the first to be captured.
EP: Yes. And Philip didn’t see him again until years afterwards.
CB: Right.
EP: Because in ’79 he had a car, a car accident. He came to see us on the way to a sale somewhere or other. He had a car accident and he went in to St Alban’s Hospital, and Geoff went to see him but he wasn’t allowed to see Philip because he was in uniform. They wouldn’t allow him because he’d gone back to the war. And so in the evening when Geoff went to see him he said, ‘Where am I?’ And so Geoff says, ‘In St Albans.’ ‘Oh St Albans. My navigator lives in St Albans. Kevin Murphy.’ So Geoff came here and looked in the telephone book and there was a Kevin Murphy there. So Geoff rang him up and he said, he said ‘Did you serve with Philip Jenkinson during the war?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well he’s in your hospital.’ Kevin went down to see him and he realised he recognized him straight away, Kevin. And they nattered about the war, you know, the plane and one thing and another. I went in the same day. He still doesn’t recollect me going in there but yet he went back all that time.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Extraordinary.
GP: Kevin Murphy. Nice chap.
EP: And there’s —
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there just for the mo.
[recording paused]
CB: It’s just, so back to the earlier comment about 1983. You were put in touch with the Germans.
EP: Yes.
CB: In the area of the crash.
EP: Yes.
CB: Ok. So how did that move on from there? They’ve got a memorial.
EP: Well, the memorial, we saw the memorial first. That’s nothing to do with Philip’s crash. That was the memorial they’ve got for Philip err for Peter.
CB: Oh ok. So that’s different.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So Philip’s one. Ok. So what did they do?
EP: We went, we went to Philip’s crash.
CB: Point.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And what did you see there?
EP: Hmmn?
CB: What did you see there?
EP: We saw the way he crashed and all the photographs. Then we went down to the farm and got some more photographs. And then we had tea there and they were very, very nice. We made friends ever since.
CB: So who were these Germans?
EP: Well, these Germans on the farm. The plane crashed and the old girl she, she remembers the plane and she remembers her brother taking the photographs. So when they saw the advert they looked in the house and found them and gave them to Philip. To which was there —
CB: Fascinating. Yeah.
EP: There’s the farm. And, and Philip had to jettison the bombs and one of the bombs went in that church and destroyed that.
CB: Right. So when, what you’re talking about is the plane, when the plane was hit it hadn’t reached the target.
EP: No.
GP: Jettisoned the bombs.
CB: So they jettisoned the bombs.
EP: Yes. Yeah.
CB: And one of them hit the church.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Which has been rebuilt.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: Right.
EP: About seventy odd it was rebuilt.
CB: Right.
GP: They were very nice about it weren’t they [laughs]
CB: So what in fact was their interest in your coming?
EP: Just I think they were so pleased.
GP: Fascinated to meet somebody —
EP: A crew member.
CB: And so you travelled from England. Did you have somewhere to stay? Or were you looking around.
EP: No. We didn’t have anywhere to stay.
CB: So what happened?
EP: Well, they gave us, we went down to see the memorial. We came back to a sort of hotel which we didn’t know what it was. And they gave us a meal. And then we said we had to find somewhere to sleep. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We have beds here for you.’ So we slept there for the night and then we were told, ‘You’ve got to come here 9 o’clock tomorrow morning.’ Which we were there ready at 9 o’clock and they took us up to their, up to their cemetery.
GP: It’s stuck. It’s stuck here. That’s it.
EP: Where’s — where’s —
CB: And what was in the cemetery?
EP: The stone that had all their names on.
CB: Now wait a minute. So just to recap. In practical terms we had five of the crew getting out.
EP: Yes.
CB: But the pilot and the rear gunner didn’t.
EP: No.
CB: So what’s the significance of this cemetery?
EP: I don’t know whether we’ve got it here or not. Or whether it’s in Peter’s [pause] So we went to their cemetery which they had this stone with all their names on. The pilot —
CB: The two.
EP: Then we went to their cemetery. You know the airmen, you know. The. We’ve done that one. —
GP: The War Graves.
EP: The War Graves. And the seven, Peter’s seven were there and Philip’s two were there. All in the same place.
CB: So, wait a minute. What’s the war graves then? [pause] I wonder how —
[recording paused]
GP: Different thing.
CB: We’ve got a bit of confusion here because of the two brothers. So we’re talking about Philip only.
GP: Yes.
CB: The ‘83 contacts were to do with Philip’s crash but there was no memorial on the site of the crash. Only viewing the site. Separately the two crew who died — the pilot and the rear gunner.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Are buried in a War Grave Commission —
GP: Yeah.
CB: Cemetery.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: Which we haven’t identified just at the moment.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Right. Ok.
EP: Went to —
CB: So after looking at the site. Then what did you do?
EP: Went back to Hans’ place.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Which was about thirty miles away.
CB: Ok.
EP: And then the next day —
CB: That’s where you stayed, was it?
EP: Yes. Stayed.
CB: With him.
EP: Yes.
CB: Ok. Now, the people who went are you and Geoff.
EP: And Philip and Jean.
CB: Philip and his wife, Jean.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
CB: So the four of you then went with Hans.
EP: Yes. Back to their place.
CB: Yeah. And then what did you do?
EP: The next day they took us to the cemetery.
EP: Right.
EP: At [pause] oh dear what’s it called?
GP: Aglasterhausen.
EP: Hmmn?
GP: Aglasterhausen.
EP: No. It’s not.
CB: But it’s the War Graves Commission cemetery.
EP: Yes.
GP: I’m trying to think of it.
CB: How long did it take to drive there?
EP: Oh, an hour or so I should think.
CB: Right. Ok.
EP: Quite a while.
CB: And after looking at that then what did you do?
EP: I think we came home.
CB: Ok. Right.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And reflected on —
EP: We drove, we drove over there.
CB: Yeah. And reflected on the experience.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Right.
EP: Yes.
CB: So, you’re with Philip and his wife. You’ve driven both ways. How did the conversation go after having being in the site and then as you came back? What do you remember about that? Because he’d be reminiscing was he?
EP: Yes [laughs]
GP: Yeah.
CB: So what did he talk about?
EP: It was the crash I think. When the plane came down and —
GP: Yes. In no uncertain terms.
CB: Had he? In what way?
GP: Oh gosh.
EP: He was ready to kill every German until, until we went out.
CB: Right.
EP: And they were so nice.
CB: Yeah.
EP: We couldn’t believe they were so nice.
CB: So he changed his tune.
EP: He changed his mind.
GP: Changed his mind.
CB: Ok.
GP: I was speaking to Hans Grimminger yesterday.
CB: Were you?
GP: On the phone. Yeah.
CB: So on the way back then he was reminiscing was he? About the experience.
EP: Yes. Yes.
EP: Yes. I think he was. Yes.
CB: Anything in particular?
EP: No. I don’t think so.
GP: He was very thrilled that he’d found somebody, Germans that knew what was going on and were very friendly to us. Yeah. I think he was a bit surprised I think.
CB: It tempered his enmity did it?
GP: Pardon?
CB: It tempered his enmity towards Germans.
CB: Yeah. Changed completely.
EP: He certainly did.
GP: He certainly did.
CB: Ok.
GP: [unclear]
CB: So Philip eventually died in 2011.
EP: Yes.
CB: What happened as a result of that?
EP: Well, he wanted his ashes to go to Germany. So we had to arrange, but because because he wanted to be by his crew. He wanted them to be buried by his crew. But they wouldn’t allow it because there was no relations. But as I had a relation there he could, they could be buried by Peter. So that’s what we did.
CB: So we’re coming on to Peter in a minute. Ok.
GP: So they just —
CB: You didn’t scatter them. You buried them.
EP: Hmmn?
CB: You didn’t scatter them.
EP: No. No. They buried them.
CB: You buried them.
EP: Yeah.
GP: We dug a little hole.
EP: Yes. By —
GP: In line with the graves. And put them in a little box.
CB: Right.
GP: Just in front of the graves.
CB: Ok.
GP: You’ve got a picture somewhere haven’t you?
CB: Right. Well, we’ll cover that later.
GP: Yes.
CB: Right. So after quizzing the Sherlock Holmes team we’re going to adjourn for the invitation of a cup of tea.
EP: Yes. Alright.
GP: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re now on the second of our proxy interviews with Evelyn Paine and in this case we’re talking about Evelyn’s other brother whose name was Peter Jenkinson DFM. And he was older than Philip but there were reasons why he joined the RAF later. So, shall we start off please Evelyn with the earliest recollections you have.
EP: Well, I remember his always being ill.
CB: Had he?
EP: Yes.
CB: What was he suffering from?
EP: Well, he had pneumonia and pleurisy and flu and everything else. And one day from school he was sent home because he wasn’t very well and he collapsed. When mum opened the door he collapsed and he was put in to hospital. And then one night when she went there the matron called, she said, ‘I want to see you.’ So she’s saying that she didn’t think he was going to last the night. So when she went back to Peter he wanted to know what she wanted. What matron wanted. And so all mum could say was he wanted, she wanted some clean pyjamas, and she said, ‘I didn’t really know what to say.’ But he survived the night.
GP: Amazing.
CB: And then what?
EP: Well, then, then when he was seventeen or something like that he went up to Bristol Aircraft Company and he worked there for a while.
CB: Doing what?
EP: Making aircraft. Building aircraft. Making the aircraft.
CB: So where was this?
EP: At Bristol.
CB: Right.
EP: Bristol Filton. And then, then when the war broke out he wanted to join the RAF and he went to have a medical but they wouldn’t take him because he was unfit. So of course he went back to the aircraft factory and then he tried three more times and every time he was not fit.
CB: Unfit in what way?
EP: Well, because his illness when he was younger.
CB: Right.
GP: There’s a little bit here you want to say about he was unfit because he couldn’t —
[recording paused]
EP: He had illness when he was young.
CB: And, one of the tests was what?
EP: Blowing the mercury up because when he wanted to join the air force and he couldn’t do it and he tried three times and passed — he didn’t pass. And then he went down to Britannic to do something to a Beaufighter. And when he went to a dance and there he was given an envelope and in it was a white feather which made him see red. And he went back to Bristol and he got a football bladder and blew that up and blew that up until he thought he was fit to blow, so he went to another you know test. Medical.
CB: RAF one.
EP: And the doctors said, if you blow up the mercury.’ He said, I can’t pass you. ‘I have to pass you.’
GP: ‘I can’t fail you.’
EP: ‘I can’t fail you.’ So he managed to. So he was in. Yeah.
CB: So, he joined the RAF.
EP: Yeah. And did all his training and —
CB: Yeah. So he’s started off at Lord’s as usual.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: And then where did he go?
EP: I suppose, was it Athans?
GP: St Athan I think.
EP: St Athans.
GP: Yes.
CB: In South Wales. Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And what did he go there for?
EP: Training as an engineer or something.
CB: As a —
EP: Engineer. Flight engineer.
GP: Flight engineers. Yes.
EP: And then he joined 166 Squadron. And then after that he went to 153 Squadron.
CB: Ok. And what were they flying?
EP: Lancasters. Yeah.
CB: So, you, what — what did he do when he was flying Lancasters?
GP: Flight engineer.
EP: Yeah. Flight engineer. Looking after all the gear, engines and things.
CB: Right.
GP: [unclear]
CB: How many raids did he go on? Operations.
EP: Well, I think, well they say thirty but I think only twenty seven. But we’ve seen the book.
CB: Right. Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And what happened? What happened to him?
EP: He was killed.
CB: Yeah. But what happened to him?
EP: And then they were put in this —
CB: They flew, they went on a raid. What happened on the raid?
EP: He was shot down by a, by a fighter. And then —
CB: What happened to the crew?
EP: They all, they found six at the time. The same night. But they couldn’t find the seventh. But they found him about four days afterwards.
GP: Buried in the snow.
EP: In the, because it was very snowy.
GP: It had been snowing.
CB: And what was the date of this?
EP: 28th 29th of January 1945.
CB: Ok.
GP: Have you seen a photo of the memorial? Yeah. It’s just above the memorial. On the left is where they actually crashed.
CB: Ok. So where is this?
EP: At Michelbach.
GP: Michelbach.
CB: Which is where?
EP: Near Heidelberg.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah. He was on the raid to Stuttgart.
CB: Right. On the way or on the way back?
EP: On the way there.
CB: Right.
EP: Because he jettisoned the bombs.
EP: Right.
CB: Yeah.
EP: So they’d time to get rid of the bombs.
CB: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Because —
CB: We saw where they all dropped.
EP: Oh really. Ok.
CB: Yeah.
GP: The fellow he, the sort of fellow he was he stayed with the pilot and that’s why really. If he’d have jumped out he’d have probably survived.
EP: None of them survived.
GP: None of them survived. But I think he stayed with the pilot. That was his duty.
EP: I read that the pilot was still alive when they pulled him out but he died afterwards.
CB: So, how did the plan come down then? Did it crash land?
EP: Crashed. Crash landed.
GP: He crashed.
CB: And the pilot controlled, did a controlled landing did he?
EP: I suppose so.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Because he was in the plane.
GP: It’s just above where the memorial is. It’s about —
EP: Yeah.
GP: A quarter of a mile away I suppose. Where it actually crashed.
CB: Who, how does it come to have a memorial there?
EP: Because a German went out for a walk in the woods and came across this bit of — well he said a plane but when Geoff and Philip went out there they said no it wasn’t the plane it was a bit of the bomb. And he decided he was going to do something about it with all these men being killed. And he asked the German army whether they could help. So they said, ‘Well yes. We’ll bring you a stone but you’re not to say anything.’ So this stone was carted there and then he did all the wrought iron on it.
CB: So when was this?
EP: ‘72 or ‘73. ’72.
CB: When did you find out about this?
EP: ‘72. ’72.
CB: How did you find out?
EP: Because Geoff was in the ROC and they got letters in the ROC from the, from the RAF. And his colleagues saw it and rang Geoff up and said there’s a memorial being put up for, you know Bristol, or a Lancaster crew and the name is Jenkinson. Is that anything to do with Evelyn’s, your family because he, because my mother lived here with me and he used to come. Les Coffey and of course he knew her name was Jenkinson. And that’s how we found out.
GP: We wouldn’t have known otherwise. No.
CB: So when we say ROC what does that mean?
GP: ROC. Royal Observer Corps.
EP: Royal Observer.
CB: Ok. Right. So then what? So you get to know about it.
EP: Yes. Yes.
CB: Then what?
EP: And then, well we didn’t do anything about it until ’83 when we went out there to see it.
CB: Why was the, what was the reason for the delay from knowing about it and going to see it?
EP: Well, Philip, Philip was farming and Geoff was working.
GP: Yeah.
EP: And then of course —
CB: So you all wanted to go together. Did you?
EP: Yeah. Well, of course Philip wanted to go out in ’83 because it was forty years.
CB: Yeah.
EP: And that was the reason we had to wait.
CB: So we’re talking about Philip being the brother who is on the earlier part of this tape.
EP: Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And he was looking, on the fortieth anniversary —
EP: Yeah.
CB: Of his own —
EP: Yeah.
CB: Being shot down.
GP: That’s right.
CB: Although —
EP: Yeah.
CB: Five of the crew survived and only two died in that particular instance.
EP: Two died.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: So when you went out first time that was at the same, it was the same trip.
EP: Yes.
CB: As when you went to —
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
CB: To Philip’s —
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: Site. How far away is it?
EP: Oh quite a while.
GP: Quite a few miles. I should think it’s a hundred.
EP: Two or three hundred miles was it?
GP: A hundred and thirty forty miles.
CB: So which site did you go to first?
GP: We went to where the memorial is didn’t we?
EP: The memorial first.
GP: Yeah.
EP: And then we met Hans.
CB: So, to Peter’s memorial.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And who did you meet there?
EP: Somebody. We don’t know quite know what. Who.
GP: Who was that?
EP: There was a, a teacher who spoke English so he was, you know he said that was he was interpreter. And he told us all about it. You know, about the plane crashing and you know —
GP: Yes. I remember that.
EP: The way the bombs fell and —
CB: How did he know? How did he know that you were coming?
EP: Because Jean wrote a letter.
CB: Jean?
EP: Jean. My sister in law.
CB: Right.
EP: Wrote a letter to Michelbach.
GP: That’s right.
EP: But we didn’t know there were seventeen Michelbachs in Germany and they went to fourteen before it went to the right one. And it’s got the —
CB: You mean in your research you didn’t visit fourteen did you?
EP: No. No [laughs] No.
GP: Yeah.
EP: And then, so they knew we were coming but we didn’t know where we were going and we stopped in this little village and we didn’t know where to go. So, we saw an old girl cleaning her windows. And of course she took a bit longer because watching us. And then Philip took the paper up and showed her the paper and she said, ‘Oh, up there.’ So we went up there and found it. We went to a little hut first of all, house which we didn’t realise was a hotel and he took us down to see the memorial where it was. Yeah.
GP: [unclear]
EP: And then we came back and we came back and we met the burgermeister and met this one and met that one. And we met about seven or eight —
GP: They were very very friendly. Yeah.
CB: They got it all organised.
GP: Yes. They did.
EP: Yes.
CB: And how easy is it to identify? Do people know that it’s there? Or only certain people.
GP: It’s a beauty spot you see.
CB: Is it?
GP: Yeah. And as you drive there is the big car park.
EP: Yes. It’s —
GP: And people park their cars to go and walk through this beauty spot and just past that there’s the memorial right by the road.
CB: So who maintains it?
GP: It was beautiful. Yeah. It’s roped off.
EP: I think the Germans have got to look after it.
GP: They look after it very well.
EP: Because we went out there one day and it wasn’t that good. And I wrote to the War Graves Commission and asked them about it. Anything can be done? No. They only look after one thing. And they’re looking after the graves. They don’t look after a memorial. But I think he must, they must have got something done because the next time we went out there it was sort of painted and looked after.
GP: Beautifully.
EP: So whether they’d got somebody to look after it I don’t know.
CB: So what is the memorial made of?
EP: A big big stone.
GP: A big stone. A very grand stone.
CB: Is it granite? Or what is it?
EP: No. I don’t think so.
GP: No. Not granite.
CB: What colour is it?
GP: Like a sandstone isn’t it? We’ve got a picture of it somewhere haven’t we?
EP: You’ve got a picture there.
CB: And how is the lettering done? Is that painted in or —
EP: No. It’s —
GP: No. I don’t think so. I think it’s —
EP: I don’t know what it —
CB: We’ll have a look in a minute. Yeah. Now, that’s where the memorial is.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And does it attract much attention or people ignore it?
GP: Well, I think it does because it’s a big car park and it’s a beauty spot. The car park’s here and you walk.
EP: And one day, one day when we were there two or three people stopped and had a look at it didn’t they?
GP: Yeah. You go, to go to the walk that they go on to look at the lovely countryside there you have to pass the memorial. It’s right by the road.
CB: So that’s where the memorial is.
EP: Yes.
CB: Where are the bodies of the seven crew buried?
EP: At the War Graves now.
CB: Which is where?
GP: Aglasterhausen? No.
EP: No. Durnbach is it?
GP: Durnbach.
EP: Durnbach.
GP: Durnbach Cemetery.
CB: And how far away is that?
EP: Quite a way. But first of all they were put in their own cemetery.
CB: In the local cemetery. And then they were —
EP: In the local cemetery.
GP: Yeah.
EP: That’s where they went And they had a stone there. And then after that they were taken to the War Graves.
CB: And reinterred there.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
EP: And they’re, they’re seven there and Peter’s two are just there. The same row. You know. Just near.
CB: Oh. So by coincidence —
EP: Yes. Isn’t it? And they were sort of killed eighteen months difference.
CB: So two brothers are buried within rows of each other.
EP: No. Philip’s crew.
CB: Philip’s crew.
EP: But his ashes are out there now.
CB: Peters crew but — yes.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. But the two —
GP: Dug a little hole. About that, square. Right in front of the grave and put —
EP: We weren’t supposed to it but we did.
GP: Some of his ashes.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. So when Peter died —
GP: Pardon?
CB: Sorry. So when Peter died.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Sorry, when Philip died you put him with Peter.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: But nearby —
GP: Just —
CB: Are the two —
GP: Right in front of — we’ve got a photograph somewhere. Right in front of the two.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GP: Had a hole like that dug.
CB: What I’m getting at is the two crew from Philip’s —
EP: Yes.
CB: Aircraft are nearby.
EP: Yes. Near. Yes. Different rows.
CB: Right. Ok.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So you went to see that. So that’s thirty years ago. What’s been the, what’s happened in the passage of time?
EP: Oh we’ve been, we’ve been over there several times. We go and see the graves and we go to see the memorial.
GP: Its looked after very well.
EP: They take us around.
GP: Yeah.
EP: We went out, the last time we went out there was in 2012 when we took Peter’s err Philip’s ashes out there.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
GP: We met an Englishman didn’t we whose something to do with the graves.
EP: Yes. Well that just why — yes.
GP: Yeah. He suggested it. We’d go and we’d dig a little square hole and we’d put his ashes in there.
CB: While nobody’s looking.
GP: And that’s what we did.
EP: Because Philip wanted all his ashes by his crew.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Not Peter. But it wasn’t allowed.
CB: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Evelyn Paine
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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APaineFE160824
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:50:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Second generation
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Aglasterhausen
Germany--Munich
Description
An account of the resource
Two of Evelyn Paine’s three brothers joined the RAF. She discusses the service of her brothers Philip Jenkinson and Peter Raeburn Jenkinson. Philip Jenkinson trained as an air gunner. He was was shot down on his tenth operation and after evading for nine days, became a prisoner of war. Peter Jenkinson trained as a flight engineer. He was killed on his 30th operation 28 / 29 January 1945 when the plane was shot down by a night fighter near Michelbach, Germany. Philip and Evelyn visited Germany in the 1980s to visit Peter’s grave and visit the memorial to his memory.
10 Squadron
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
evading
final resting place
flight engineer
Halifax
killed in action
Lancaster
memorial
prisoner of war
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1111/11601/ASaundersJ170609.1.mp3
9eb6de7875d7e6d31dad307ae215e888
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Simon, Francis William
Frank Simon
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Jillian Saunders about her father, Francis William Simon (b. 1917, 2211910 Royal Air Force), his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 153 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jillian Saunders and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, some items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Simon, FW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right. I’m just going to pop that there but just ignore it. So, today it’s Friday the 9th of June. The day after the election 2017. And this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m with Jill Saunders today and we’re at Jill’s home at [ buzz ] Whiston, in Rotherham. And Jill’s going to talk to me about her mum and dad and their experiences during the bomber war. But then we’ll also come on and talk a little bit about Jill’s experiences since with regards 153 Squadron and also with regards to research into a specific plane. So I’m going to start off, if that’s ok Jill just to ask you a little bit about what you know and what you can remember about your mum and dad’s childhood. Perhaps we’ll start with your dad first. How old would he, can, can you remember what year he was born?
JS: He was born, he’d have been, he’ll be a hundred in, next month.
AM: Ok.
JS: So he was born in 1917.
AM: Right. Ok. So just towards the end of the First World War then.
JS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: Where was he born?
JS: He was born in Salford. His mother died when he was twelve. And his father died about eighteen months later.
AM: Right.
JS: Of a heart, of, well no. His mother died, she’d had an operation for, to have her tonsils out and they left a swab in and she got septicaemia and she died. Which he never got over. And his father I’m not supposed to know it but he was found hanging in the outside loo about eighteen months later.
AM: Right.
JS: So my father was actually brought up by his much older sister, Margaret who he idolised. She was his mum virtually.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And he lived with her until after the war. Until he got married.
AM: Did he have brothers and sisters?
JS: No. No. No, he didn’t.
AM: No. So did Margaret.
JS: Well he had his sister. Margaret was his sister who brought him up.
AM: Of course.
JS: Yeah.
AM: But you said she was considerably older than him.
JS: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That’s alright.
AM: I’m thinking aunt rather than sister there.
JS: Her son, Les died last year, in fact. He was eighty. He was my cousin obviously and he thought the world of his Uncle Frank and Auntie Peggy. And told me once how, I think it would be in November ’44 he’d be about ten or eleven, something like that. He went to school one day. They were preparing for the Christmas concert and they needed some gold paint for something so the teacher said, ‘Anybody got any gold paint?’ So he said, ‘I’ve got some at home, sir.’ ‘Go home and get it then.’ And when he got home his mum, that’s my dad’s sister Margaret was there making tea and toast for a full seven aircrew who were all sitting around on the living room floor. So, young Les walked in and sort of wow. And they made a fuss of him and he had some tea and toast. And it was the naughtiest thing Les ever did in his life. He didn’t go back to school. They took him to Bellevue for the afternoon.
AM: The zoo.
JS: Yeah. And funfare as it was in those days. And he thought that was great fun. And you know they all made much of him and he remembered my dad and all his crew until the day he died which was last year.
AM: Yeah. It just shows you doesn’t it? So did your dad go to school in Salford?
JS: Dad went to school in Salford. Yes. He was Salford born and bred. Proud to be a Salfordian. And started work. He got an apprenticeship as a fitter.
AM: So, did he leave school at fourteen or —
JS: I don’t know what age he would be.
AM: No. Because it was usually the fourteen for school certificate.
JS: Something like that. He was bright though. Totally wasted. And he was a brilliant engineer. And I think he served his time at Reynold’s. Reynold Chain. That was in Trafford Park, I think in those days. In fact, he worked at the time with Harold Goodwin the actor who was in a lot of war films including, ‘Bridge over the River Kwai.” Little man. He was in quite a lot of war films. And every time one of these films came on TV my dad would go off. ‘There he is the little so and so.’ He was a conshy. He wouldn’t go in the war.
AM: Ok.
JS: But he made all these films afterwards which really wound my father up.
AM: I can imagine.
JS: So, yeah. So he, as I say he served his time as a fitter. In his latter years he was such a good engineer his nickname was Two Thou Frank because everything had to be done to two thousandth of an inch or less. He was just meticulous with everything. The paperwork. You know. He drove me mad with my homework. You know. I had to underline my answers and it had to be neat. He was just that sort of guy really.
AM: So what, so if he started work and apprenticeship.
JS: Yeah.
AM: As a fitter.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What year would that be then? ‘Ish?
JS: I don’t know.
AM: Or am I, obviously pre-war.
JS: It’s pre-war. Yeah. And I know he was a Volunteer Reserve.
AM: Right. So, so this is when?
JS: Because I’ve got his little VR badge. And I think he moved onto AV Roe’s working there and was classed as Reserved Occupation.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So, he was actually older and later joining the fray.
AM: Right.
JS: Than most his contemporaries —
AM: So he actually worked at AV Roe as an, as and engine, a fitter.
JS: Which is where, where he met my mum.
AM: An engineer. Yeah.
JS: Yeah. And he finally got his call up papers and kept for years his one way ticket. His rail ticket. Which —
AM: Yeah.
JS: I threw it out of course. He called it his one way ticket. So, yeah. So then he, he trained for the, they wanted him, they were short of engineers in the RAF and it was the obvious place for him to go really. He trained at St Athan as most of them did. Then he, I’ve got his logbook there. He went through various places but ended up in 166 Squadron at Kirmington.
AM: Ok.
JS: And then in October ’44 he’d crewed up with six Australians at Kirmington.
AM: Right.
JS: Formed a crew, and they were sent down to Scampton to form 153 Squadron with a number of other crews.
AM: Did he tell you anything about the crewing up process? And how they, how that particular —
JS: Yeah. He didn’t, he didn’t but the two guys in his crew that I spoke to and that I met in 2006 did in that they were all just more or less shut in to a room and said form yourselves into a crew. Now, I don’t know whether my dad picked them or they picked him but he ended up in an all Australian crew apart from himself.
AM: I think that was what was in my mind. How did he end up with six Australians then?
JS: Whether the six of them had got together and we need an engineer he’s the only one left. I have no idea. I don’t know who would. Whether the skipper picked them all or who knows.
AM: We’ll never know.
JS: No. No.
AM: But from there they would have gone on to —
JS: So they started ops, I think late October ’44.
AM: They would have gone to Heavy Conversion Unit.
JS: They did that before. He did that before.
AM: Ok. So then the crew.
JS: If you, if you can stop that I’ll go and get his logbook and —
AM: We’ll have a look at that afterwards.
JS: Yeah. Alright.
AM: Oh, well hang on. So what I’ve got here in my hand is a copy of Jill’s dad’s logbook. Jill’s got the actual logbook. And once they’d crewed up and were actually ready to start operations they moved from 166 Squadron to 153 Squadron. Jill, have you any idea why? Why did they move squadrons?
JS: They were just for, as far as I’m aware they were just actually forming a new squadron, 153.
AM: Right.
JS: And I, I don’t know that it was only 166 that was sent there or whether there was others sent there as well to make up the squadron. I could find that out for you. I only need a phone call to Bill Thomas and he would tell me.
AM: Yeah. No. It’s just interesting.
JS: Yeah.
AM: To wonder. Because obviously I’m looking. I’m looking at [pause] I saw the training and the familiarisation. The circuits and landings. All the rest of it. The night bomber. Fighter affiliation. Diversion and bullseye. Almost all with Pilot Officer Mettam.
JS: Yeah.
AM: As the pilot. But for some of them, and we’re in Halifaxes at this point as well. So, Pilot Officer Mettam. Was he one of the Australians then that became the —
JS: Yes.
AM: The final crew.
JS: He was his pilot.
AM: Right. Ok.
JS: Right the way through.
AM: Yeah.
[pause]
AM: So what we’re looking at now is that in —
JS: Also had to do dual and solo. The flight engineer had to be able to fly.
AM: Right. Yeah.
JS: Himself.
AM: Yeah.
JS: In case anything happened to the skipper, of course.
AM: So then in September 1944 when the training had finished that was when they moved the following month in October ’44 to 153 Squadron. So he was based —
JS: At Scampton.
AM: At Scampton. And did he, what did he tell you, if anything, did he tell you anything about the operations? Any stories. Any — or just what it was like.
JS: He — no. He only told me about coming back with the full load on. But I subsequently found out a couple of stories from the skipper and tail gunner when I met them. The tail gunner was a real comedian. Apparently, when they all got back and went for their bacon and eggs Ned didn’t. He went straight to the parachute shed to chat the girl’s up who were folding up parachutes. But that was what Ned was like. He said they were coming back, I don’t know whether dad was with them or not at the time, from one op and he said they were on fire. He was in the rear turret and there were sparks and all sorts flying and they were coming down and he could hear them jettisoning fuel, and you know and preparing for a nasty. And he got on his mic and said, ‘Are we baling out, skip?’ And Mettam, in his voice, ‘No. That won’t be necessary,’ And brought it down sweet as a nut. He also, then Mett himself did tell me once they were diverted to Manston. I don’t think it was the one that dad was on because I’m sure he would have told me but he overshot at Manston which is very, not like Mett but the problem being that as he overshot he hit a ploughed field and the furrows instead of going the way he was going went the opposite way. So I said, ‘Well, what happened?’ He said, ‘Well, the nose dug in,’ he said, ‘And it flipped over.’ Completely flipped over from the back end over the front end. I said, ‘What the hell did you do?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We all got out and scratched our heads, looked at it, laughed and hitched a lift back to Scampton.’
AM: What happened to the plane though upside down in the ploughed field?
JS: That’s right. It wasn’t their problem was it? So, yeah, I mean I did found out a little bit from them two. Dad didn’t speak a great deal apart from he did tell me a few times about the time he came back with a full load on and I think that must have really frightened him. Having to land with a full load that they had been trying to get rid of for a few hours.
AM: Did, did he ever say anything about what he saw as the differences between, because looking at it most of the training was done on Halifaxes and then right towards the end of the training in September they went on to Lancasters.
JS: That’s right.
AM: Did he ever talk about the difference between the two?
JS: No. He only ever spoke about Lancasters.
AM: Right.
JS: He never mentioned Halifaxes at all to me. I think like most of them he was in love with the Lancaster and still are.
AM: And that was the one he did all his operations on.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So. So, I’m looking at the logbook and the first operation was to Essen. And then a couple of Colognes. Nights. A fair mix actually. Mainly, mainly night. Mainly night operations. Cologne. Dortmund. Düren. [unclear] Freiburg. And did he ever say anything about the operations. How he felt about them or —
JS: The only thing he did tell me about was having his bacon and egg and them saying, ‘Flying tonight, sir?’ Which when I watched the “Dambusters” film and having eaten in the mess at Scampton I found it very difficult to actually eat in there. To even go through the doorway. It was just, yeah it sent shivers down my spine.
AM: I think you said, so I’m looking at the operations and we’ve, let me just find the right page. I think in total he did —
JS: I think it was nineteen. I think.
AM: Nineteen.
JS: I think it was nineteen.
AM: Yeah.
JS: I’m trying to find out because they were, they were transferred as a crew down to 582 Pathfinders at Little Staughton in January ’45. Dad was admitted to hospital in Ely in February ’45 and mum did tell me that he, he had done an operation in Pathfinders.
AM: Right.
JS: But there’s no record of it anywhere.
AM: No.
JS: And I think that’s perhaps because he was, didn’t get his logbook filled in and was whipped in to hospital quickly.
AM: Right.
JS: I don’t know.
AM: Because, yeah because on the logbook as you say it shows the last one as number eighteen in January ’45 over the Bay of Biscay. And then you said he was ill.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What, what was, what was wrong? What happened?
JS: He took bad with stomach ulcers and in those days if you had a stomach ulcer they cut you vertically from top to bottom and removed all sorts of things. And he suffered for the rest of his life.
AM: Right.
JS: With duodenal ulcers. I mean today you take a course of antibiotics. I did myself only a few months ago.
AM: How long was he in the hospital? You say he was in the hospital in Ely.
JS: Ely.
AM: Yeah.
JS: In Cambridgeshire. Yeah. Because he was taken from — he was taken from Little Staughton which is Cambridgeshire way isn’t it? And I presume Ely was the biggest hospital.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Looking at the photographs of him just after the war and on honeymoon painfully thin and gaunt. It had obviously, the war and the operation had really taken it out of him.
AM: Well, you know it’s a huge operation.
JS: Yes. Yeah.
AM: And he wasn’t tall to start with. Five foot seven and a half I’ve read on his, on his commencement papers.
JS: Yeah.
AM: So, obviously then he was that was it he didn’t fly again.
JS: He was. Yes. He then went into, he was made to, made to go in the Home Guard.
AM: Because he left. He was actually discharged in May ’45. So then he went in the Home Guard. Any stories about that?
JS: No. He just found it all very amusing and like little boys playing with sticks over their shoulders. Just like Dad’s Army, in fact.
AM: And he would be quite a bit older than them.
JS: Yes.
AM: Well, older than the young ones.
JS: Of course.
AM: Obviously then there’s old.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Old ones as well.
JS: Yeah. And I think he was one of the few that had actually seen action.
AM: Yeah. He would have been twenty eight by then. Which was actually quite old for a flyer.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: So, tell me a bit about your mum and then let’s come back to your mum and dad together. Tell me a little bit about your mum’s early background and where she was born.
JS: Mum was born in Kendal in the Lake District. A country girl. She was one of nine in a small house up there. Left school reasonably early. She was born in 1920.
AM: If she was one of nine did she ever describe to you, talk to you about what sort of house they lived in?
JS: Oh, my God. Yeah.
AM: Go on. Tell us about that.
JS: I’ve been in there.
AM: Oh, you have.
JS: I have.
AM: Describe it for me then.
JS: Just an ordinary [pause] well they were all grey stone built.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Got to be in grey stone in Kendal. Just an ordinary semi with three bedrooms and a downstairs toilet. They did have an indoor toilet and a little bit of a bathroom downstairs off the kitchen. But very small and there was five boys and four girls. And they all had crazy senses of humour. She’s often told me about how they were all tops and tails in bed and many a night the boys would sneak in when they had just gone to sleep, crawl under their bed and just lift the bed up. Frightened them to death. They, they were all she had one brother who she came in one day, she ran in from the garden because she could hear her sister screaming. And her brother had a roped down on to the kitchen table with a carving knife dangling on a rope wrapped around the light fitting swinging. Lowering it like a [laughs]
AM: As you do.
JS: Yeah. And those were the sort of things. They had to make their own fun.
AM: Well, yeah.
JS: And they sort of tortured each other.
AM: The television. Sitting in front of the television.
JS: That’s right.
AM: Where was she in the age range? Somewhere in the middle? Top or bottom?
JS: She was right in the middle, I think.
AM: In the middle. Right.
JS: In fact, the youngest of them mum always said our Lenny was born, she was on the change when she had him. He was the first to die in actual fact. My mum was the last one to die. She died three years ago. She was ninety four.
AM: So she left school at fourteen.
JS: Yeah. And as you do in Kendal you go to work at the K Shoe Factory which later became Clarks. And she was there with all the girls doing piecework. She did piecework all her life and quite happy.
AM: Describe for the tape what piecework is.
JS: Piecework is, you get paid for, per item. So the more items you do per day the more money you get. So it had a great impact on her life because her idea of doing something well was doing it as fast as she possibly could. She went to the gym which she did in her fifties and sixties it was, ‘I’ve finished,’ in ten minutes flat because she’d just tear around like a lunatic. Everything she did was at break neck pace because she was used to being on piecework. She later went on, she carried on for the rest of her life as a machinist. And worked for a number of years making nurses uniforms.
AM: It’s just piecework’s not a phrase you would hear now.
JS: No. No.
AM: And of course —
JS: I don’t know what they’d call it now.
AM: When you said she did piecework.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. It was the only thing.
AM: So, so back to she worked at —
JS: Yeah.
AM: The K Factory.
JS: She worked at Ks. And then the war broke out so she would be about nineteen. Nineteen and a bit. They were obviously stopped from making shoes into more useful footwear and she ended up on flying boots for the RAF. And she told me how as the flying boots went along the production line and they all did their little bit to them and all the girls to relieve the boredom and because they felt they had to, no. They wanted to. Slipped little notes in the boots as they went along in front of them. Little slips of paper. You know, “God bless the RAF.” “Good luck.” “Stay safe.” All that sort of thing.
AM: Nowadays it would be have my mobile number.
JS: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So then after a while there she was all her brothers and sisters were doing their bit in various places, she was sent down to Manchester to work in the munitions factory in Trafford Park. And while she —
AM: Did she have a choice of what war work she did?
JS: No. No. She was just —
AM: Quite the opposite. That’s where she was sent.
JS: She got a notice that’s where she was going and that’s where she went. And then once she was sent there of course there was a little bit of room left in the home where she was brought up so her mother, my grandma then had to take in evacuee children. She had two little boys. One didn’t last too long. And then the second one was from the North East. A pale sickly child and of course nice fresh air and good food as far as, well to what he’d been used to his parents came to visit him and didn’t recognise him. So, yeah mum’s now in, I think it was AV Roe she was in. It was, she was making parts for Lancaster bombers and she was doing something with a bit of metal. I don’t know what it was and in came a load of airmen and dad was amongst them. They were obviously all engineers. As part of the training learning how it was all put together and their eyes met over, I don’t know whether it was a lathe or something like that and that was that. they started going out together. And they got engaged. He sent her money to go and get a second hand ring somewhere. He wouldn’t get married until after the war. She used to go home at weekends, I think. Now and again. And her sister, my auntie did tell me that whenever she saw dad by this time was on ops and whenever she got up in the morning and read the newspaper and it said a thousand bomber raid over so and so again last night. Apparently, the colour just drained from her face and she wouldn’t eat her breakfast and couldn’t do anything. And they all left her alone until she got a telegram because dad always sent her a telegram when he, as soon as he got back. After he’d his bacon and eggs I suspect. And as soon as she got the telegram she was alright. But he wouldn’t get married ‘til the war was over. And his war was over when he got [pause] well when he came back of the Home Guard I suppose after he’d been discharged from the RAF.
AM: You were telling me some stories about your mum. So when she’d moved to Trafford and was working at the AV Roe factory obviously she would end up in digs.
JS: Oh yes. That was the only thing she would ever spoke about. I mean she never spoke about the work or the girls or anything. It was just the horrible digs she was put in and there and it was bed bugs and fleas and it was filthy dirty and icy cold. And she couldn’t wait to go home at weekends. She hated it and she was lonely and she was a very timid soul. A very nervous person. You know to be taken from her nice comfortable country existence like that to be sent to a big city to have to do that and put up with all the bombing and everything else. I remember when it was D-Day she said, she said they knew it was brewing and that morning she said all through the night they’d heard aircraft going over. She said it was just a constant drone all night long and they knew that something was, was happening. And that morning the hooter went in the factory, Everybody to the canteen,’ and they all lined up in the canteen and the guy said to them, ‘Let’s just say a prayer for the lads. This is it. This is D-Day,’ and she said they all just you know had a few minutes for the, for the boys.
AM: Sorry that gulp was me sipping water. So then obviously you said he sent this telegram every time he got back.
JS: Every time. Yeah.
AM: From ops. I’m just trying to piece together in my mind so she’s still there working when he was in hospital in Ely as well.
JS: Yes. She must have been.
AM: She must have been, mustn’t she?
JS: She must have been. Yeah.
AM: And then come the end of the war he’s in the Home Guard.
JS: Yes.
AM: Well, not the end. From his discharge which was in May ’45.
JS: Yes. He went into the Home Guard.
AM: He’s in the Home Guard.
JS: In the Manchester area again, I presume. I don’t know for sure but I presume it was in his home town. I think it was in Salford.
AM: And she would still be in Trafford Park or would she have moved back up to Kendal.
JS: I have no idea when she moved back. I’ve no idea.
AM: But obviously they’d got engaged by then so —
JS: It was all go then. Yeah.
AM: So when did they get married? ‘ish?
JS: Well, I was born in ’49 and I think they’d been married two to three years before they had me. 18th of April err 27th of April.
AM: Where did they end up living?
JS: She moved down to Salford to be with him. They moved in a, oh it was an awful house. I can remember it even as a kid. It was four back to backs next door to the school. And when it rained we had buckets everywhere. It was cold. It was damp. The toilet was a hundred yards away in a block with three others to go with the other three houses that were back to back with.
AM: Just explain what back to back, what you mean by back to back.
JS: Well, these were, it was two semis and then attached to them at the back of them was another two semis. So it was a square block of four properties.
AM: And that means that the windows were only on the front because the —
JS: That’s right.
AM: Back wall is the dividing wall.
JS: Two walls.
AM: Between the two properties.
JS: Two walls.
AM: Which is why we call them back to back.
JS: That’s right.
AM: It’s like four in a square as you say, isn’t it?
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And torn up newspaper for loo roll. I can remember my mum always going mad that, ‘Mrs Garforth, next door has been using our toilet again. I can tell.’ [laughs]
AM: So the toilet was at the end of the —
JS: The toilets were along the side. So [pause] let me see. You’ve got the four houses there.
AM: You’ve got your four houses in a square.
JS: Back to back.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And there’s a bit of a garden here and the road there.
AM: Right. So in the front of each house.
JS: And there.
AM: There was a garden but then at the side of them —
JS: No, there wasn’t. No.
AM: No.
JS: The front of that house and this one were on the, on the road.
AM: Oh right. Ok.
JS: Right. This was ours. This one here. And the front door was here.
AM: Right.
JS: So it was on the corner and was that one. And the toilets were there.
AM: Right.
JS: Difficult to explain.
AM: And were there four separate toilets then?
JS: And so we had to go from, yeah.
AM: Ok.
JS: In a row. So we had to run from here.
AM: But you were further away.
JS: The furthest away.
AM: Because you were furthest away house from there really.
JS: Yes. That’s right.
AM: From the toilets.
JS: And that was Mrs Garforth’s. And our toilet was quite handy for her [laughs] And my primary school was here.
AM: Right.
JS: The school yard gate was there.
AM: Right.
JS: So whenever they couldn’t find me as a two year old I was in the school yard playing with the kids. And the teachers knew me and they’d take me in to class with them at two and three years old.
AM: I’m trying to think. 1949. Would rationing still be on?
JS: Yes.
AM: It would, wouldn’t it, then. So no sweets or anything like that.
JS: Oh no. No. No. You were lucky if you had clothes on your back. Times were really hard. Tin bath in front of the fire.
AM: Yeah. Once a week.
JS: By this time my dad was working at the power station. At Agecroft Power Station. And he used to go off on his bike. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of Agecroft Brew, but it’s about one in one. Cycle down there to do his stint at the power station and then have to cycle all the way home and many a time we didn’t see him. I didn’t see him for days on end because he’d go to work and then it was can you do some overtime? So he’d go straight into overtime and then during the overtime there’d be a breakdown so he could be there for forty eight hours. And there was no phones or anything.
AM: No.
JS: He’d go off to work and we really didn’t know when he was coming back.
AM: Did your mum work? Or was your mum at home.
JS: Mum was working full time as a machinist. Yeah.
AM: Oh, you said she worked her whole life [unclear] Yeah.
JS: Yeah. So the next door neighbour was the caretaker of the primary school that I’ve just described and they became great friends. And she was the grandma that I never had was Auntie Nellie. She babysat so that they could both go to work. She was a wise old soul. She virtually brought me up.
AM: So how long did you live in in those houses?
JS: We lived there until I was about seven.
AM: Right.
JS: And then we thought we’d hit the big time because we were granted a council house a couple of miles away. And I mean it was the business, you know. We’d made the big time.
AM: Indoor bathroom. Indoor loo.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Nice big garden. It was in a state and dad set to and he made it lovely. It was his pride and joy. But in those days the rent man came on a Friday or whatever it was. You had to pay him in cash. No pets. You did as you were told else you were out. No benefits. No nothing in those days.
AM: No. Well yeah. Its, I’m just trying to think what year National Health came in. ’50. I can’t think.
JS: I think there was national health but there was no benefits as such.
AM: No.
JS: I mean you were privileged if you got a council house and you made sure you paid your rent. And you had to be, you had to be a good upstanding family with a full time job and able to afford the rent. There was no housing benefit or anything. If you couldn’t afford the rent you couldn’t have a council house. Times are different now.
AM: So then you grew up.
JS: I grew up.
AM: Got married. Moved away.
JS: Yeah.
AM: Your dad carried on working. I think you said your dad died.
JS: He carried on working. He worked hard all his life. Yeah. And then he had a heart attack in ’73. Died in ’73. He was only fifty five. It should never have happened.
AM: So quite young.
JS: Never have happened.
AM: Relatively speaking.
JS: I mean in this day and age they’d have put a stent in and he’d have been alright.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Again. And the care was dreadful. Within ten days his back was covered in bed sores. I didn’t believe him. I thought he was joking. Then he leaned over and I saw his back. It was raw. Absolutely blistered from top to bottom.
AM: It’s just how things have changed. When you do look back at something like that it makes you realise how much things have changed.
JS: I saw him the night before he died and he was fine. He’d watched the Cup Final. Manchester United. He was made up, buzzing. ‘Look at, they’ve moved me up here.’ ‘Well, that shows you’re getting better. Look. Your charts back.’ ‘Yeah. Ok.’ And then I got home and I got a phone call 6 o’clock the next morning, ‘It’s the hospital here.’ I said, ‘Is it my dad?’ ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘Is he dead?’ She said, ‘Yeah. There’s nothing you can do. We’ve told your mum on the phone to get down there as soon as you can and then come here at 9 o’clock for his things.’ Well, by the time we got to my mum’s house she was running up and down the stairs just completely hysterical. They just told her over the phone and she was on her own. And we got there and he was still in his bed with the curtains around. Oh, there’s a bag with his things in. Sign for it. Sign for a post mortem. Come back tomorrow.’ And my husband said, ‘No. You’re not doing a post mortem.’ ‘But we’re — ’ He said, ' No. He’s dead. Peggy, don’t sign.’ I’ve never seen my husband be like that before. It was quite barbaric really. He didn’t deserve it. He worked long and hard all his life. He had a really tough life.
AM: So, tell me a little bit now about you and afterwards and 153 Squadron and and your relationship and what you do.
JS: Yeah. Well, because of dad’s discharge from the RAF Mett, his skipper was his hero and dad was all set for going back to Australia with him after the war. But of course because he was hospitalised and everything he lost touch with them all. And he tried ‘til the day he died to find them all but they were all Australian and there was no internet and phones or anything in those days. And he spent hours in the library but he wasn’t able to come up with anything. And on and off from thereafter I kept having a dabble myself and then the internet struck up and in 2006 I got hold of a guy who was on the internet, down as a representative for 153 squadron. And his phone number was there so I rang him and I said, ‘Is that Bill Thomas?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘153 Squadron.’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ I said, ‘My dad was with 153 Squadron.’ And he said, ‘Just a minute. What was his name?’ And I told him and he said, ‘That’s right. Came down from Kirmington. 166.’ I said, ‘Yeah, that’s right.’ He said, ‘Yeah. His skipper was Hal Mettam.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Hang on a minute,’ he said, ‘I’ve got Mett’s phone number here. Do you want it?’ Well, I couldn’t believe it. I really couldn’t believe it. I sat on it for two or three hours before I rang him and he, he was quite curt with me when I, when I rang. He was a bit off guard. He was moving house. He was about to eat his dinner and that was that and I put the phone down. Well, he put the phone down. And I thought well at least I’ve spoken to the guy and I set to and I wrote him a letter. Enclosed a few photographs and my contact details and I stuck it in the post. I got home from the work the following night and this Bill Thomas called me again. He said, ‘How did you get on speaking to Mett?’ So I said, ‘Well, it was a bit of a weird conversation really.’ He said, ‘Yeah. He was a bit aloof.’ He said, ‘I’ve got another one for you.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Another member of his crew.’ I said, ‘Oh, go on then.’ ‘Ned Kennedy, his tail gunner.’ I said, ‘Yeah. That’s right.’ He said, ‘He lives in Scarborough.’ I said, ‘Oh wow.’ And he gave me the phone number. I said, ‘Scarborough?’ He said, ‘Yeah. Scarborough, New South Wales.’ I said, ‘Oh right. Ok.’ So I waited ‘til the early hours of the morning and I thought right I shall ring now, because of the time difference. A little lady answered the phone and she put me on to Ned and he said, ‘Hello.’ I said, ‘Is that Ned Kennedy, 153 Squadron?’ ‘Yes. ‘I said, ‘Do you remember your flight engineer?’ He said, ‘Frank. Yes.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m Frank’s daughter.’ ‘Well, bugger me,’ he said in a broad Australian accent. He said, ‘You sound just like your dad. I can hear him now saying “Want a cup of tea, skip?”’ So, cutting a long story short I got home again the next night and lo and behold there was an email from Mett, the skipper which took me by surprise. Apologising and saying yes he did remember and everything. And, and we kept in touch. And in May ‘07 Mett came to the reunion. I went to the first reunion. And Ned, very sick, in a wheelchair got on a plane and came over from Australia and we all met up at the reunion and there wasn’t a dry house in the house.
AM: Where was it? Where was the reunion?
JS: It was at the Holiday Inn in Lincoln. Prior to that they had them at another hotel in Lincoln and we had it then at that hotel for three or four years and I started to get involved. And now we have it at the Bentley.
AM: So, how did you get involved in doing more?
JS: I got involved, particularly. There was one year we went and one of our vets was taken poorly the day before as happens because they’re all getting elderly and said he couldn’t make it and the staff at the hotel were insisting we paid for his room. And the secretary at the time was, ‘Oh. Ok then. Yes.’ And started to write a cheque. And they were also insisting that in future years all these veterans must be insured in case they couldn’t come. And being the rubber gob that I am stuck my two penneth in and said, ‘No. You are not being paid. You can’t tell me you did not sell that room last night.’ ‘Well um —' I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘There’s no way you’re having money out of us,’ I said, ‘These guys are veterans. They’re OAPs,’ you know, ‘Stop taking the mick,’ I said, ‘And regards insurance you can stick it.’ And they were sort of oooh. And then one or two people said, ‘Good on you, Jill.’ De de de de de de. Bill Thomas, in those days used to write a newsletter three times a year handscript and send it out to people. I said, ‘I’ll type that out for you Bill if you like.’ ‘Oh, will you?’ And it just sort of snowballed from there. I was elected to take over from madam who was saying yes to everything. And I started typing the newsletters for him and adding a little bit and then it got to the stage where I was actually doing them. And then arranging they decided after that particular incident to move hotels for the reunions. And we moved and I took over the bookings of that and then, you know as the vets have sort of either died or not been able to, to keep up Bill Thomas who was the secretary decided we should have an honorary secretary, an honorary treasurer and what have you. The next generation down. So that was how I got the post of an hon sec.
AM: That was you. So do you still have an annual reunion?
JS: Yes. We had it last month.
AM: How many Second World War veterans have you still got?
JS: Well, on the books we’ve got [pause] about half a dozen or so. Maybe more.
AM: Yeah.
JS: But we only had three show up this year. In fact one of them with his family came over from Majorca. He lives in Majorca now and he comes quite often. He’s a case is Jack, er the year before we went to the BBMF and we were having a look around and he got in the Lanc and he was sat in the pilot’s seat. He was a pilot. He’s the only pilot we’ve got left. He sat in the pilot’s seat and as we were walking away he was walking with his two sticks. I said, ‘Did you enjoy that, Jack?’ He said, ‘Aye. But I couldn’t remember where the undercarriage switch was.’ He’s got a wicked sense of humour. A very nice chap. The other one is Taf Owen. He did a Manna drop.
AM: Aneurin.
JS: Hmm?
AM: He’s called Aneurin.
JS: Yeah. We all call him Taf. Yeah. He did Manna drops. He’s our president. And Les Jenkin. Les [pause] Oh God. I forget his surname now.
AM: I’ll find out off you after if they’ve all been interviewed.
JS: Yes. Yes. He has. Les. Oh. my goodness. Well, his daughter’s treasurer anyway.
AM: Yeah.
JS: So —
AM: Tell me a little bit about the research you’ve been doing into a specific Lancaster.
JS: This specific Lancaster.
[recording paused]
AM: Well, tell me. So go on. So tell me about the plane.
JS: Right. Right. As part of my role as hon sec I decided one year a few years ago that we should get a bit more high tech and develop a webpage and a Facebook page. So I started them off and we’ve had all sorts of contacts come in via both. We’ve picked up a lot of new members. Particularly this last year. I think it’s because a lot of people going into their genealogy and stuff now. And things are beginning to tie up. Coincidences are happening. And, you know we had a couple meet up at the reunions whose fathers were, flew together and that sort of thing and it’s been, it’s almost spooky at times. Anyway, sometime last year via our webpage I got an enquiry. I was contacted by a guy in Germany called Roland. ‘I have some pieces of an aircraft. One of your aircraft from 153 Squadron. Would you like them? I found them in the forest.’ And he gave me the number of the aircraft. He’d done a little bit of research himself so, ‘Yes please.’ So arrived a box full of pieces.
AM: And I’m looking at —
JS: Yeah.
AM: Exactly that.
JS: Yeah.
AM: A box full of pieces.
JS: Yeah.
AM: From, blimey.
JS: They smell weird.
AM: I will take a photograph.
JS: Yeah. Well, I’ve got. I did take some photographs. Somebody reckoned that that particular, we thought that was leather but he was thinking it was part of the self-sealing liner for a fuel tank.
AM: Ok.
JS: Anyway, after a bit of research I discovered that this particular aircraft, it went down in March ’45. It was on a raid to Nuremburg with a crew and it was their first operation. And it was fully loaded with a four thousand pounder and fourteen hundred and seventy incendiaries and it was hit by a night fighter. It was virtually vapourised. But this gentleman in Germany has done a lot of research. He’s been and found their graves. He’s sent me all the information he’s got plus photographs of the crash site plus a report from the local mayor about the incident which I’ve had translated. And I’ve managed to find relatives of [pause] how many members of the crew now? I think it’s, well it’s four lots of relatives I think I’ve managed to contact who’ve become members. Yes. There we are. One. Two. Three. Four lots. So, that is still ongoing. We, at our AGM discussed it, wondering what to do with it all and seeing as the pieces are so small first refusal on the pieces has been to relatives or descendants of any of that crew. And the rest we thought we would take the most convenient bits and put them in a little presentation box. A glass fronted thing with a document which I’m trying to pull together of what exactly happened to it and give it to them at the Scampton Heritage Centre to put with the other 153 stuff that they’ve got there. That’s as it is at the moment. I’ve made lots of notes but we’ve not put a document together and we’ve not had a presentation.
AM: And did, did you say your dad had flown in that plane?
JS: Yeah. Yeah. And part of my research shows that my father flew in that, in that particular aircraft on one occasion. I think it, did I say it was October ’44 and it went down in March ’45. There’s also Tom Tobin who you have on your records. It was his, his favourite aircraft. He did about fourteen ops in it before it went down.
AM: But not that one.
JS: I’m in touch, regular contact with his daughter in Australia. A Douglas McCourt also flew in it on March the 2nd. I’m in contact with his son in South Africa. And Doug is ninety five and still going strong. And there is another. You have Peter Baxter’s memoirs on record. His son, Mike Baxter is in our Association because his father was the engineering officer for 153 and he actually flew in it as well. And he says in his memoirs, “We flew in Lancaster W-William. Appropriately numbered with my initials PB642 Peter Baxter.” So yes. It’s quite incredible really tying it all together. We’ve got a couple of photographs of members of the crew. We’re still trying to find more. As I say I’m still pulling it all together.
AM: Those pictures of the graves at the back.
JS: These are pictures of the graves.
AM: Where are the graves?
JS: At —
AM: Durnbach.
JS: Durnbach War Cemetery. And this is where he found the pieces. These are photographs of where he actually found the pieces of the aircraft.
AM: Given that there were that many, I mean you describe it as virtually vapourised.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Given that there were that many incendiaries on them.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: It sort of makes you wonder.
JS: Yeah. Tiny little pieces.
AM: What went in the graves.
JS: According to, according to the mayor in his report he says [pause] where is it? [unclear] Yeah. That, that’s what Tom [pause] Tom Tobin was in it. Flew fourteen ops in it or something. I’m just —
[pause – pages turning]
AM: Yeah. it’s, it, it is absolutely fascinating to look at the, to look at the photographs of where he dug the pieces up from.
JS: Yeah.
AM: It actually looks like wood smell.
JS: It is.
AM: It’s come down in woods.
JS: I’ve got the actual crash site and a map with it plotted on it. As I say, I’ve really got to bring all this together.
AM: Yeah.
JS: That’s my ongoing project at the moment.
AM: Yeah. but although you describe them as quite small pieces, which they are there’s quite a lot of it.
JS: Yeah.
AM: There’s a whole box of it.
JS: Well, there’s two boxes arrived. I mean one box arrived within days. And another one a few weeks later.
AM: How did he know?
JS: I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean most of that information in there in the graves and everything all tallies up and he, there’s a lot of Germans now doing this.
AM: Oh yeah.
JS: With metal detectors.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And then following it up and researching it.
AM: Yeah.
JS: And that’s what he does a s a hobby etcetera. But I found it particular spooky when I opened the box. It was just a cardboard box. It had leaves and mud and twigs and things in it as well. And the smell as I opened the box and as I touched a piece and thinking dad’s flown in that.
AM: Yeah.
JS: We just, we both just stood there and we actually shivered.
AM: A little shiver.
JS: There’s one place. Is it that page?
AM: Your dad could have probably told you.
JS: Yeah.
AM: What they were and where they were from.
JS: Like this one we worked out that this piece we worked out at the AGM that that’s got to be part of the one of the seats because they’re screws rather than rivets. Right. So it would have been screwed into the wood.
AM: So I’m looking at a piece of metal that’s maybe eight inches long.
JS: Yeah. And you see that’s the interior colour paint.
AM: And maybe about, yeah, about three quarters of an inch wide. You can see the green paint on it and the one, two, three, four, five, six screws with the screw heads. And on the other side of the metal where the screws have gone through it, the whatever it was and it looks like some sort of leather seat cover.
JS: That would have been a washer of some sort on the other side with it being screwed you see.
AM: It’s, I will take some photographs of this. It’s fascinating.
JS: As I say we decided in our infinite wisdom that that would be part of a seat.
AM: Yeah.
JS: Because it will have been screwed to something wooden which would be a frame for a seat.
AM: Yeah.
JS: As opposed to rivets in, in other bits, you see.
AM: Crikey. So we’re looking at a Lancaster with rivets through it here and I wish I could bring Rosie the riveter in. I’ll tell Jill about Rosie the riveter later.
JS: That would be interesting. You know they’re quite heavy.
AM: It is absolutely fascinating.
JS: Yeah.
AM: To look at and think what, what they are and what they were
JS: We’ve scoured them all to try and find numbers on them but you can, you can feel the different metals. [unclear] probably a bit of shrapnel judging by the weight of that.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s absolutely fascinating looking at all these. I’m going to switch the tape off now and then take some photographs.
JS: When it first arrived —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jill Saunders
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASaundersJ170609
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:53:45 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Jill Saunders’s father Frank Simon was born in Salford in 1917. He served an apprenticeship as a fitter before joining A.V. Roe. He had joined the RAF volunteer reserve but as he was in a reserved occupation, he was only called up in 1944. He trained at St Athan as a flight engineer and was subsequently posted to 166 Squadron, based at RAF Kirmington, in October 1944. The remainder of his crew were all Australians. They were one of the crews sent to RAF Scampton to form 153 Squadron. Altogether, Frank flew 19 operations before his crew were transferred to the Pathfinders at RAF Little Straughton in January 1945. However, he became ill and was hospitalised in February 1945. It was while working at A.V. Roe that Frank met his future wife, Peggy. She was born in Kendal in 1920 and had worked at a shoe factory before being conscripted to a munitions factory in Manchester. They married after the war. Frank worked at a power station until his death at the age of 55 in 1973. Peggy lived into her 90s.
In about 2006, Jill made contact with the 153 Squadron Association and through it, with two of Frank’s former crew. She became involved in the running of the Association and remains Honorary Secretary.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Manchester
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
final resting place
flight engineer
Home Guard
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Kirmington
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/868/27101/LHendersonIG19220504v1.1.pdf
9cd39ce6bc2aedc73f96559d333eb1a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Henderson, Ian
Ian Grant Henderson
I G Henderson
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Ian Henderson DFM (b. 1922), his log book, a diary of operation, a memoir and a photograph. He flew operations as a navigator with 153 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ian Henderson and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Collection is NtA.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Henderson, IG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Description
An account of the resource
Ian Grant Henderson’s navigator’s log book covering the period from 28 June 1943 to 9 Aug 1945. Detailing his flying training and operations flown as navigator. He was stationed at RCAF Edmonton (2 AOS), RAF Bishops Court (7 OAFU), RAF Peplow (83 OTU), RAF Blyton (1662 HCU), RAF Kirmington (166 Squadron and 153 Squadron), RAF Crosby-on-Eden (109 OTU). Aircraft flown in were Anson, Wellington, Halifax, Lancaster and Dakota. He flew a total of 11 operations with 166 Squadron and 21 with 153 Squadron, total 32 plus one leaflet drop (Blois) and one recall (Neuss). His pilot on operations was Flight Lieutenant Legg. Targets were Calais, Saarbrucken, Emmerich, Duisburg, Stuttgart, Essen, Cologne, Wanne Eichel, Duren, Dortmund, Urft Dam, Royan, Bonn, Bottrip, Heligoland Bight (mining), Politz, Dresden, Chemnitz, Mannheim, Misburg, Bremen, Harpererheg, Paderborn and Lutzkendorf. This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Terry Hancock
Cara Walmsley
Title
A name given to the resource
Ian Grant Henderson’s navigator’s flying log book
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1944-07-04
1944-07-05
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-09-28
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1944-10-14
1944-10-19
1944-10-20
1944-10-23
1944-10-24
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-02
1944-11-16
1944-11-19
1944-11-20
1944-11-29
1944-12-03
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1945-01-05
1945-01-06
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-03
1945-02-04
1945-02-05
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-12
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-21
1945-02-22
1945-02-28
1945-03-01
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-21
1945-03-24
1945-03-27
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LHendersonIG19220504v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Alberta--Edmonton
England--Cumbria
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
France--Calais
France--Royan
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Paderborn
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Germany--Urft Dam
Alberta
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
1662 HCU
83 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
C-47
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
mine laying
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Blyton
RAF Kirmington
RAF Peplow
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30219/PBaxterPD1603.1.jpg
269ae946a7ac6fd3c358dc40637950e4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30219/PBaxterPD1604.1.pdf
cae1294e067caaf9ed3ced696b021002
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[photograph]
No. 153 SQUADRON, R.A.F. STATION, SCAMPTON
June 1945
Pamore Ltd., London, W.C.1.
[page break]
Back Row
6
Sgt Den L Bolton
Rear Gunner
(in Spike Malone's crew)
From Rochester, Kent
5 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 4 operations credited
Aug 1945: Transferred to 'Y' Flight, No 12 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, to test H2S Mark IV radar device
Stayed in RAF; was posted away and worked in Pay Accounts
8
Sgt. Jock Burns
Bomb Aimer
(in Spike Malone's crew)
From Kirkcaldy, Fife
Trained in Canada
5 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 4 operations credited
Aug 1945: Transferred to 'Y' Flight, No 12 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, to test H2S Mark IV radar device
9
Sgt Les Pitt
Bomb Aimer
(in F/Lt R C Cooper's crew)
From Portsmouth
28 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 3 operations credited
Worked at Portsmouth dockyard
died of asbestosis, c. 1993
20
Sgt D M (Blackie) Black
Wireless Operator
(in Spike Malone's crew)
5 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 4 operations credited
Aug 1945: Transferred to 'Y' Flight, No 12 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, to test H2S Mark IV radar device
Very good snooker player; always beat Vic Townsend
Went to Australia after the war; came back to Dundee; Manager of a jute mill.
'He married a widow with an existing family, and they had some more’
d. 2003
Row 3
15
F/S Ken Foley
Navigator
(in Johnnie John's crew)
6 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' Flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 3 operations credited
Aug 1945: Transferred to 'Y' Flight, No 12 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, to test H2S Mark IV radar device
Shared a room with Vic Townsend in the Sgts Mess at Marham.
Qualified as a Chartered Accountant; emigrated to Canada
16
F/S J Hall
P/F Engineer
(in Johnnie John's crew)
6 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' Flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 3 operations credited
Aug 1945: Transferred to 'Y' Flight, No 12 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, to test H2S Mark IV radar device
'As a skilled Building worker he got an early release'
18
F/S Jack Garnham
P/F Engineer
(in Spike Malone's crew)
5 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' Flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 4 operations credited
Aug 1945: Transferred to 'Y' Flight, No 12 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, to test H2S Mark IV radar device
'A real character. Older than the rest of us. A regular who had re-mustered from Ground Staff (Engine Fitter). Was a 'Halton brat' (boy entrant). Trained as a Pilot, but like a large number finished up doing the Flight Engineer's job – an excellent one too, with his background. Wonderful company – quite a ladies' man!'
Row 2
17
F/S Noel J Read
Navigator
(in P/O M F A Ryan's crew. Ryan, from Canada, was invalided out in Feb 1945 after 1 operation; replaced by F/O MA Ramsden, from NZ)
18 Feb 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, B' flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 5 operations credited
'Nice chap. Suffered from a stammer which he overcame very well'
d. c.2000
18
Sgt William (Bill) I P Nelson
Flight Engineer
(in P/O F A Ryan's crew. Ryan, from Canada, was invalided out in Feb 1945 after 1 operation; replaced by F/O MA Ramsden, from NZ)
18 Feb 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, B' flight, RAF Scampton
Jun 1945: 5 operations credited
When Jack Garnham was posted away Bill became Flight Engineer on Spike Malone's crew.
'He was one of the leading lights in organising the Y Flight Doomies Reunion, which started in 1946. By all accounts these were somewhat riotous occasions, with Bill on the piano...'
d. pre 1990
Front Row
14
F/Lt Peter D Baxter
Flight Engineer Leader
from Birmingham; previously at Halton, Cosford, Penrhos and St Athan before doing a full tour from Wickenby with 12 Squadron. Later moved to 50 Squadron at Waddington
16
(?) Turner
Navigation Leader
17
Jack Day
Radar Leader
Acted as Assistant Navigation Leader
From Oxford
'Jack had done a full tour, including a number on Berlin, in another Squadron when things were really tough ... a lovely chap
Worked at Barclays Bank
20
G Rodney
Squadron Commanding Officer
25 Apr 1945: Berchtesgaden (C, LM550; aborted, S/I Engine failure)
30 Apr 1945: Manna (3rd X, RA545)
3 May 1945: Manna (3rd J, NX556)
7 May 1945: Manna (4th A, NX573
21
(?)Lloyd
Station Commander
29
F/Lt R C Cooper
Pilot
28 Apr 1945: Posted in to Squadron 153, 'B' flight, RAF Scampton
4 May 1945: Manna (2nd W, RF205)
7 May 1945: Manna (3rd X, RA545)
Jun 1945: 3 operations credited
('Was Les Pitts' skipper')
PBaxterPD1604
Jun 1945 Part 2
1 of 1
17/08/2020 13:56
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
No 153 Squadron photograph
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Panoramic landscape photograph (stitched together from multiple images) of 153 Squadron at Scampton, dated 06/1945, PD Baxter is Front row, 14th from the left. Spreadsheet (on three tabs) identifying some of the individuals shown in PBaxterPD1603.tif and giving career details.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Excel sheets Peter Baxter
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-06
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One photograph and a series of Excel spreadsheets.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD1603, PBaxterPD1604
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-06
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
153 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30220/PBaxterPD1601.2.jpg
011a141603c7d41c84c5ef3183623376
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Peter Baxter
Description
An account of the resource
Photograph of Peter with flight engineer brevet and flight lieutenant rank, trees in background
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD1601
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
12 Squadron
153 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
ground crew
Lancaster Finishing School
RAF Scampton
RAF Wickenby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30245/MBaxterPD52604-160712-28.2.jpg
705abeb3c555dc9c2c7ee00d84130d46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HALTON
1 S of T.T. HALTON 8 Months
2 S of T.T. COSFORD 1 1/2 Years
9 A.O.S. PENRHOS 2 1/2 Years
4 S of T.T. ST.ATHAN 3 Months
12 Squadron WICKENBY 10 Months
1667 H.C.U.FALDINGWORTH 3Months
1 L.F.S. HEMSWELL 9 Months
153 Sqdn. SCAMPTON 1 Year
50 Sqdn. STURGATE 4 Months
50 Sqdn. WADDINGTON 7 Months
TOTAL 8 Years 8 Months.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Units Peter Baxter served at
Description
An account of the resource
Typwritten list of the units and the length of time that he was stationed there.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Baxter
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBaxterPD52604-160712-28
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Staffordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jan Waller
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
12 Squadron
153 Squadron
1667 HCU
50 Squadron
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster Finishing School
RAF Cosford
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Halton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Penrhos
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
RAF Sturgate
RAF Waddington
RAF Wickenby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30247/MBaxterPD52604-160712-26.1.jpg
891e9da60c4abf375bed3960e12a6952
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined]153 Squadron CREW LIST 1st June 1945[/underlined]
O.C. Squadron W/Cdr G.F. Rodney Pilot.
Squadron F/Eng Leader F/Lt P.D. Baxter F/Engineer.
Squadron Bomb Leader F/Lt R.F. Thompson Air Bomber.
Squadron Nav. Officer F/Lt J.A. Turner Navigator.
Squadron Sigs Leader F/Lt R.W. Stewart W/Operator.
Squadron Gunn Leader F/Lt J.T. Weaver Air Gunner.
[underlined]’A’ FLIGHT[/underlined]
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] S/L Flynn
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Lygo – Sgt Richins
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] Sgt Mayhew – Sgt Blackwood
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] F/L Pettitt – Sgt Miles
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/L Langford
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] Sgt Thomson – F/O Rea-Taylor
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O McDonald – F/S Jones T.
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Hallam – Sgt Hawkins
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Sharp
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] Sgt Broughton – F/O Andrews
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/L Morrison – F/S Calderbank
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Evans – Sgt Peacock
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Penman
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] Sgt Nicoll – F/O Downes
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Colman – F/S Brown
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] F/O Richardson – Sgt Pepper
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/L Kilnor
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Spinks – Sgt Bridger
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] Sgt Corcoran – Sgt Barker
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Mepstead – Sgt Pinkham
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/L Speed
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] P/O Whittingstall – F/O Meadows
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Bates (N.Z.) – P/O Hill
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Fowler – Sgt Mitchell
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Parker
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] P/O Taylor – F/O Howling
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Coxon – F/O Edwards
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] F/S Craig – F/S Lewington
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/S Birch
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Sutherland – F/O Taylor
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Batt – Sgt Smith
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt McKachnie – Sgt Simpson
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Heaton
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Evans – Sgt Kirkman
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] Sgt Farren – Sgt Owen
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Crossott – Sgt Gist
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Douglas
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Short – Sgt Watson
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/S Ward – Sgt McDougall
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Randall – Sgt Simmonds
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Conley
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] Sgt Ledsham – F/O Taylor
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/L Alexander – F/S Hauxwell
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Beswick – Sgt [indecipherable]
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/S Oldcorn
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Dickinson – Sgt Vaughan
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/S Melville – Sgt Davies
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Brady – Sgt Cowley
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined]P/O McClellan
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] Sgt Cracknell – Sgt Heathcote
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Johnson – F/S Emmott
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Moragran – Sgt Luke
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Brown
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Martin – F/O Hasdell
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/S Hollyer – Sgt Worston
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] Sgt Cooper – Sgt Francis
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Adams
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Brown – F/L Lake
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Sawyer – Sgt Winters
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] W/O Watt – F/S Braycott
[underlined]Pilot/Captain[/underlined] F/O Fawcett
[underlined]F/Engineer – Air Bomber[/underlined] F/S Pearce – F/O Pasley
[underlined]Navigator – W/Operator[/underlined] F/O Lindsay – F/O Edwards
[underlined]M/U/Gunner – Rear Gunner[/underlined] W/O Espley – W/O Shaughnessy
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
153 Squadron crew list
Description
An account of the resource
153 Squadron A flight crew list as of 1st June 1945.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-06-01
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Typewritten list
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBaxterPD52604-160712-26
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-06-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
153 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
Lancaster
navigator
pilot
RAF Scampton
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30257/MBaxterPD52604-160712-25.1.jpg
3b8c5c070e9d9e8dfe98f3e4c74576df
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined]NO. 153 SQUADRON ORDER OF BATTLE NO. 22[/underlined]
Officer i/c Flying: W/Cdr. F.S. Powley, D.F.C., A.F.C. Date: 11.11.44.
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 1 – B – NG218 – F/O Bishop
Flight Engineer – Sgt Syme
Air Bomber – F/O Clarke
Navigator – F/O Jackson
W/Operator – Sgt Lott
MU/AG – Sgt Bolak
Rear/AG – Sgt Dash
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 2 – C – LM550 – F/O Capper – F/O Blackmore
Flight Engineer – Sgt Sparvell
Air Bomber – F/Sgt Bale
Navigator – P/O Morris
W/Operator – Sgt Luckraft
MU/AG – Sgt Nutt
Rear/AG – Sgt Ramsay
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 3 – D – PD636 – F/Lt Jones
Flight Engineer – Sgt James
Air Bomber – Sgt Cullen
Navigator – F/Sgt McDonnell
W/Operator – Sgt Williams
MU/AG – Sgt Trafford
Rear/AG – Sgt Simpson
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 4 – E – LM754 – P/O Searle
Flight Engineer – Sgt Robonson
Air Bomber – Sgt Wavish
Navigator – Sgt Thomasson
W/Operator – Sgt Hunt
MU/AG – Sgt Flavell
Rear/AG – Sgt Craig (AMQ. 39)
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 5 – G – PD168 – P/O Potter
Flight Engineer – Sgt Woolley
Air Bomber – F/O Thomas
Navigator – Sgt Boyle
W/Operator – F/Sgt Askew
MU/AG – Sgt Smith
Rear/AG – Sgt Hambrook
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 6 – H – NE113 – P/O Schopp
Flight Engineer – Sgt Davies
Air Bomber – F/O Leckie
Navigator – F/O Etherington
W/Operator – Sgt Taylor
MU/AG – Sgt Pratt
Rear/AG – Sgt Cuthbertson
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 7 – J – PB633 – F/O Groves
Flight Engineer – Sgt Clay
Air Bomber – F/Sgt Selkirk
Navigator – P/O McDonnell
W/Operator – W/O Kirby
MU/AG – F/Sgt Healey
Rear/AG – F/Sgt Foot
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 8 – K – PB472 – F/O Wheeler
Flight Engineer – Sgt Morandi
Air Bomber – F/O Durman
Navigator – Sgt Fish
W/Operator – F/Sgt Turner
MU/AG – Sgt Hodges
Rear/AG – Sgt Scott
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 9 – L – PD380 – F/O White
Flight Engineer – F/Lt Baxter
Air Bomber – F/Sgt Amy
Navigator – F/Sgt Blackmore
W/Operator – Sgt Cameron
MU/AG – F/Sgt Cardy
Rear/AG – Sgt Brilliant
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 10 – O – PB638 – F/O Willis
Flight Engineer – Sgt Horner
Air Bomber – F/Sgt Cumming
Navigator – F/O Boyce
W/Operator – F/O Pringle
MU/AG – Sgt Stewart
Rear/AG – Sgt Sandys
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 11 – P – NG189 – F/Lt Legg
Flight Engineer – Sgt Ross
Air Bomber – F/O Jones
Navigator – Sgt Henderson
W/Operator – F/Sgt Rawlings
MU/AG – Sgt Andrew
Rear/AG – Sgt Beat
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 12 – R – LM750 – F/O Williams
Flight Engineer – Sgt Dickson
Air Bomber – Sgt Taylor
Navigator – P/O Duignan
W/Operator – Sgt Crookes
MU/AG – Sgt Heath
Rear/AG – Sgt Carter
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 13 – S – LM752 – P/O Mettam
Flight Engineer – Sgt Simon
Air Bomber – F/O Saladine
Navigator – W/O Barton
W/Operator – F/Sgt Evans
MU/AG – F/Sgt Lockyer
Rear/AG – F/Sgt Kennedy
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 14 – T – NG201 – F/Lt Dury
Flight Engineer – Sgt Woods
Air Bomber – F/O Dickinson
Navigator – F/O Brand
W/Operator – F/Sgt Bourke
MU/AG – Sgt Gallacher
Rear/AG – P/O Strange
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 15 – U – NG184 – F/O Jones
Flight Engineer – Sgt Jenkinson
Air Bomber – F/Sgt Fletcher
Navigator – F/Sgt Dormer
W/Operator – Sgt Milburn
MU/AG – Sgt Coles
Rear/AG – F/Sgt Ferguson
Detail – A/C Letter – A/C No. – Captain – 16 – X – PD378 – F/O Gibbins
Flight Engineer – Sgt West
Air Bomber – Sgt Shield
Navigator – Sgt Cole
W/Operator – Sgt Craddock
MU/AG – Sgt Gough
Rear/AG – Sgt Mitchell
Spare Gunners: Sgt Shilliday (P/O Byer’s Crew) Sgt Frank (P/O Byer’s Crew)
Duty W/Op (Air): W/O Crew (P/O Byer’s Crew)
F/Eng: Sgt Thompson (F/O Langford’s Crew)
Sgd. F.S. Powley
Wing Commander, Commanding,
[underlined]153 Squadron, R.A.F.[/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Order of Battle No 153 Squadron
Description
An account of the resource
Order of Battle number 22 for 11 November 1944, shows Peter Baxter although acting Flight Engineer Leader scheduled to fly as a member of Flying Officer Whites crew. According to Peters record of his service ' I Flew with Nine Wing commanders', the operation was cancelled.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBaxterPD52604-160712-25
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-11
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-11-11
153 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
Lancaster
navigator
pilot
RAF Scampton
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30282/BBaxterPDBaxterPDv1.1.pdf
577eb11ecf5974b8a0c61795657b59c5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
I Flew with Nine Wing Commanders
Description
An account of the resource
The detailed and wide ranging story of Peter Baxter's service in the RAF from an Airframe Apprentice to Flight Engineer Leader.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Baxter
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Book in .pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Memoir
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BBaxterPDBaxterPDv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Lincolnshire
England--Buckinghamshire
Wales--Glamorgan
England--Staffordshire
Wales--Gwynedd
Germany--Berlin
Italy--Milan
France--La Rochelle
Europe--Frisian Islands
Germany--Essen
Germany--Düsseldorf
Italy--Turin
France--Lorient
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Nuremberg
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Paderborn
Italy
Great Britain
Germany
France
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
12 Squadron
153 Squadron
50 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
Battle
Beaufighter
Blenheim
bombing
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
crash
crewing up
debriefing
dispersal
Distinguished Flying Medal
Do 217
entertainment
final resting place
fitter airframe
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 3
He 111
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
mess
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
nose art
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
pilot
promotion
RAF Cosford
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Halton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
RAF Sturgate
RAF Tilstock
RAF Waddington
RAF Wickenby
recruitment
target photograph
training
Whitley
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30334/PBaxterPD16020058.1.jpg
c74e5725b307f7a13990a9aebe84afa2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Osnabrück
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Taken on a post war 'Cooks Tour'. Shows severe damage to buildings. Information on photograph, 'T3 SCM. 30/5/45//7" OSNABROOK 2,000' F/LT LANGFORD C. 153.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-05-30
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020058
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Osnabrück
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-30
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30335/PBaxterPD16020055.1.jpg
0629ffcea922dcaf07c55fc347dff315
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30335/PBaxterPD16020056.1.jpg
d928f953549a0647b64e7f2d4cdde852
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30335/PBaxterPD16020057.1.jpg
e2da355173c7b0d9a114f216af91037f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Peter Baxter at Pompeii and Napoli
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Photographs taken on Lancaster flights to Italy as part of Operation Dodge to repatriate Allied service personnel. One is of a ruined bakery, the other two were taken at Pompeii.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-11
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three b/w photographs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020055, PBaxterPD16020056, PBaxterPD16020057
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Naples
Italy--Pompeii (Extinct city)
England--Lincolnshire
Italy
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-11
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30338/PBaxterPD16020049.2.jpg
fff9ba7df0394125ce8ec2a2c85d7ec7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30338/PBaxterPD16020051.2.jpg
2af81976c3c12e5827cc311ac6280b78
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Napoli
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Two photographs taken when Peter was in Naples for the first of his two trips to Italy as part of Operation Dodge to repatriate Allied service personnel, the first is at the beach and the second is in the city.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two b/w photographs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020049, PBaxterPD16020051
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Naples
England--Lincolnshire
Italy
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-07
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30369/PBaxterPD16020044.2.jpg
57325fcd283513244aa26ecd20abbc6b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30369/PBaxterPD16020045.2.jpg
e92e7d89338be571e1719e592fbecda1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30369/PBaxterPD16020046.2.jpg
ca34f93db669b6fe49ce94ca770f9d81
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30369/PBaxterPD16020047.2.jpg
a98cc2538459ba5bfbf79d25fd51fdbf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomb damage
Description
An account of the resource
Four photographs of damage to German cities taken on two of the 'Cooks Tours' flown by no 153 Squadron.
The first has the caption 'T3 SCM 30.5.45//7" HAMM 2,000'. F/LT LANGFORD C.153 and shows Hamm railway marshalling yard with tracks running from lower left to upper right. Extensive bomb damage over entire area with several areas totally obliterated. At least 15 lines of goods wagons of various lengths, several lines of which are broken by bomb craters with wagons on their sides. Farmland to top of photograph bordering marshalling yard. One railway building to top right.
The second has the caption 'T24 SCM. 2.6.45//7" 2,000' F/O MORRIS Y153 and is described as being of Essen, showing the devastation to the buildings. Significant road running parallel and close to left hand edge of photograph is partially elevated on viaduct and is broken at a point very close to the top of the photograph. Another smaller road passes beneath it at right angles. Nearly all buildings seen are without roofs. Large church is seen lower right. Old city gate, with round towers is to the top right corner leading to a large oval plaza.
The third has the caption 'T24. SCM. 2.6.45//7" 2,000' F/O MORRIS Y153 and is of the Krupp works at Essen. Factory buildings in various state of disrepair as a result of bomb damage. Some totally destroyed with roofs missing and walls reduced to ground level. Route of railway sidings can be seen running top to bottom either side of main building, with another joining from the lower left. Track has been largely destroyed with just sleepers visible in places. Some railway wagons can be seen on these sidings. Prominent building in centre has bays running left to right. First bay shows little bomb damage whilst to the lower right side of this building, a gantry crane is positioned above a railway siding into the building. Bays beyond this one have “saw tooth” roofing. Factory chimney visible in lower left corner.
The fourth has the caption 'T24. SCA. 2.6.45//7" 2,000' F/O MORRIS Y153. No location is given, but in the centre, is the cruciform ruins of a burnt out church (possibly Christuskirche Altendorf) with remains of its steeple on the right. Whole area is completely covered in bomb craters, with all buildings reduced to ruins, several to the extent that original outline plan cannot be identified. Road has been cleared running from upper right to lower right.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-05-30
1945-06-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Four b/w photographs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020044, PBaxterPD16020045, PBaxterPD16020046, PBaxterPD16020047
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamm (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-30
1945-06-02
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated (cumulative polygon)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Stuart Cummins
153 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
Cook’s tour
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
reconnaissance photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30370/PBaxterPD16020042.2.jpg
ebae6922a7853a95bb690640ca2e0de7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30370/PBaxterPD16020043.2.jpg
35888aa2d8f0bba2e15ab3eb9ac53874
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
To Peter with the Best from “Tobin’s Gangsters”
T P Tobin Australia
R.C. Muggleton.
A.B. Tilson.
W Dolling
R W Maloney.
P P Rollason.
PS Smart.
Taken 18.4.1945, after crews’ last trip of their tour, to Heligoland.
[inserted] 18 EVERRITT AVENUE
FULHAM GARDENS
SOUTH AUSTRALIA
5024.
(6 MILES FROM ADELAIDE)
TP Tobin
23/7/75
STRATFORD ON AVON [/inserted]
[inserted] ADDED ON MAY 15th 1990
MY FIRST VISIT TO PETER & JOAN’S HOME
72 MIDHURST ROAD
KINGS NORTON.
GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN YOUR AUSSIE PAL
(TP Tobin Ex 153 Sq. Tom) [/inserted]
[Page Break]
[photograph]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Tobin's crew
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Tom Tobin was an Australian captain on no 153 Squadron and a friend of Peter. The photograph shows the Tobin crew after their last operation of their tour, to Heligoland. The reverse has crew signatures and also records the visit of Tom to the UK in 1990.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-04-18
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph and reverse
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020042, PBaxterPD16020043
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04-18
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Claire Monk
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30371/PBaxterPD16020041.1.jpg
b985e4c7e1c8f4c31b26e3e8ffb49bba
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Peter Baxter with crew
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Photograph is of the crew before Peter's last operational flight to Paderborn.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03-27
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020041
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Paderborn
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03-27
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30372/PBaxterPD16020039.1.jpg
2ab0289c384422dddb600b3bfd863446
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30372/PBaxterPD16020040.1.jpg
d9325860d18230c5405adc411019674e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
153 Squadron
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Two photographs, first is of A Flight, second is of B Flight in March 1945 at R.A.F. Scampton. Peter is back row no 5 on B Flight photograph.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two b/w photographs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020039, PBaxterPD16020040
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30373/PBaxterPD16020038.2.jpg
744ad03f967cad8f5dfbbbb318793e8d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[photograph]
SHIPS FROM SUPPLYING FOOD TO STARVING HOLLAND
KNEELING MAINTENACE CREW OF OUR PLANE ‘W’ WILLIE
SEE SNOW ON GROUND.
BACK LEFT TO RIGHT
YORKY DOLLING (REAR GUNNER) BOB MUGGLETON (BOMB AIMER) TOM TOBIN (PILOT) PADDY MALONEY (MID UPPER GUNNER) PETER SMART (ENGINEER) PETER ROLLASON (WIRELESS OPERATOR) PADDY TILSON (NAVIGATOR TAKEN PRIOR TO TAKE OFF FOR MUNICH 7/1/45
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Tobin and crew
Description
An account of the resource
From information provided by the donor. Tom Tobin was a friend of Peters on 153 Squadron. Photograph shows Tom's crew and two of the ground crew before an operation to Munich. Names of crew hand written on photograph.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-01-07
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photogrph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PBaxterPD16020038
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-01-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Claire Monk
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
153 Squadron
aircrew
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
RAF Scampton