1
25
119
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2180/38355/S102SqnRAF19170809v30004.2.jpg
0f26e8c4299edd80c9bd443de3ae042c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
102 Squadron Collection
Description
An account of the resource
Thirty-one items.
The collection concerns material from the 102 Squadron Association and contains part of a Tee Emm magazine, documents, photographs, accounts of Ceylonese in the RAF, a biography, poems, a log book, cartoons, intelligence and operational reports, an operations order and an account by a United States Army Air Force officers secret trip to Great Britain to arrange facilities for American forces.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Harry Bartlett and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-23
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
102 Squadron Association
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Operations order from 4 Group
Description
An account of the resource
Detailed operation order from group to 102, 77, 10, 158, 466, 640, 76, 78, 51 and 578 Squadrons with numbers of aircraft required. Target "Whitebait". Gives detailed instructions, routes, bomb loads, wave orders, fuel loads, window carriage, route markers, Pathfinder target and spoof marking, bombing instructions. List aircraft involved from other groups.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
4 Group Headquarters
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-02-15
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02-15
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
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One page typewritten document
Conforms To
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Pending text-based transcription. Allocated
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
S102SqnRAF19170809v30004
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
1 Group
10 Squadron
102 Squadron
158 Squadron
3 Group
4 Group
466 Squadron
5 Group
51 Squadron
578 Squadron
6 Group
640 Squadron
76 Squadron
77 Squadron
78 Squadron
8 Group
bombing
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Pathfinders
RAF Driffield
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Pocklington
RAF Snaith
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/510/8412/PDunnG1501.2.BMP
505c4b2651ad5389c9a6458077b498ac
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/510/8412/ADunnG150405.1.mp3
d86cd9b1133884331255b8b76f63465f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dunn, George
George Charles Dunn
G C Dunn
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dunn, GC
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Two oral history interviews with George Dunn DFC (1922 1333537, 149315 Royal Air Force), a photograph a document and two log books. He flew operations as a pilot with 10, 76, and 608 Squadrons then transferred to 1409 Meteorological Flight.
There is a sub collection of his photographs from Egypt.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Andrew Panton, the interviewee is George Dunn, Mr Dunn was a RAF Pilot who flew various types of aircraft during the Second World War, the interview is taking place at Princess Marina House in Rustington West Sussex, on the 5th April 2015.
GD: My name is George Dunn, I was seventeen years of age when the war broke out and I was born at Whitstable on the North Kent coast, so I saw quite a lot of the Battle of Britain and being facing the Thames Estuary all the hoards of German bombers that were coming in to bomb London, when the London Blitz started, at, I joined the local defence volunteers, and then that became the Home Guard, and when I reached the age of eighteen I volunteered for aircrew. I was interviewed up at Chatham and I originally registered for wireless operator/air gunner, but they said to me would I consider pilot training, which I agreed, and after a written exam and a selection board, I was advised that I could take up pilot training. First aircraft I flew was a Tiger Moth because I did all my training in Canada, the first place was at Saskatchewan, a little place called Caron west of Moose Jaw and from there I went on to A V Roe Anson’s at a place called Weyburn again in Saskatchewan. When I came back to the UK in September 1942 I was then posted to Chipping Norton which was a satellite of Little Risington on airspeed Oxford’s this was to acclimatise us to the flying conditions in this country, we had been used to flying with full town lights and city lights, but this was of course flying in blackout conditions. From there I was posted to Lossiemouth which was number 20 OTU, and formed my crew, and we did my OTU on Wellington’s.
AP: So can you say a little bit about the Wellington Bomber, how you found it to fly and what you did [inaudible word]
GD: Well the Wellington Bomber I found was a nice aircraft it wasn’t difficult to fly and we had quite an easy course on it.
AP: What about op’s with the Wellington? Can you remember any?
GD: No I didn’t do any operations on Wellington’s
AP: So from the Wellington, where did you go next?
GD: From Wellington’s I was sent to Heavy Conversion Unit which was at Rufforth just outside York, on Halifax aircraft.
AP: And was that your first op aircraft?
GD: No, surprisingly enough, normally if you went to a Heavy Conversion Unit, you had, you flew a certain number of hours and then you were seconded to a squadron where you had to do two operations with an experienced crew, but in my case I was sent to number 10 squadron at Melbourne to do my two second dickey trips as they were called and believe it or not I had not set foot in a Halifax aircraft until that first raid. First raid was Essen, which was rather a heavy place to go to, to start with but we got through that alright and the following night I did my second, second dickey trip to Kiel, so I got two fairly good targets under my belt to start with.
AP: And could you talk a bit about the experiences you had on those trips, I mean did you engage fighters, flak, ack ack searchlights?
GD: What when I was on my own crew?
AP: yes.
GD: Yes, our first trip as a crew was to Dortmund, and right throughout our tour we were fairly lucky we were never attacked by a fighter but we were coned at one stage.
AP: So can you talk about what that means?
GD: Yes, coning is when you initially get trapped by a blue searchlight, a radar searchlight and once that’s on to you the white searchlights form a cone so you could be, you might call it sitting like a fairy on a Christmas Tree, and the only suitable manoeuvre to get out of a coning, is by a corkscrew method, if you can do that then you’re ok, but on this occasion we managed to get away from the cone.
AP: And
GD: Yes if you are coned the thing is, is to keep your eyes on your instruments, don’t look outside because you will get blinded by the light. On the 17th, 18th August 1943 I was based at Holme on Spalding Moor south east of York and on this particular afternoon the first thing we noticed when we got to the briefing room were there were extra service police on the door which we thought was rather unusual, and when we got into the briefing room and they drew the curtains across we saw this red ribbon going all the way up to Denmark up the North sea, across Denmark, missing the North German coast because of the heavy flak and then we saw this tiny little place on the Baltic coast, and we thought what, what’s going on there, what’s this all about, never heard of it. When we were briefed we were only told that it was a secret research station connected with radar, at no time were we given any indication of the real work that was going on there. The chilling remark that was made at the end of the briefing was that the target was so important that it should be destroyed that night, otherwise we were told quite firmly that we would go back the following night, the night after that until it was destroyed, and you can imagine the feeling we had knowing what reception we would get if we had to go back on the night after. After the briefing of course we went back to our usual pre-op dinner or meal, bacon and eggs usually, and eventually to the parachute room picked our parachutes up, and into the crew room, dispose of all our wallets and anything that might identify us, and took off, reached our climbing height, and proceeded through the Yorkshire coast up towards Denmark. Included in the main force was a low number of Mosquito’s which were used as a spoof raid on Berlin, this was to make sure that the German authorities were thinking that the main force was going to Berlin, and of course as we got nearer the main force veered off to Peenemunde, and the Mosquito’s carried on to Berlin. This caused quite a lot of consternation amongst the German aircrew controllers because they weren’t sure where the main force were, and when the German night fighters were alerted they had no idea what was going on, the German ground controllers were in a bit of a state and one German pilot realising what was going on proceeded to Peenemunde without being told, so of course by the time the German fighters had got there the raid was virtually half over. We were fortunate we did our run in from the Island of Roden which was about a five minute run in from the North, and we went in on the first wave, the target was well marked we went in at about seven thousand feet it was a brilliant moonlight night and my bomb aimer got quite excited because this was the first time that he had actually been able to identify the target because normally we were bombing from eighteen or nineteen thousand feet, so this was quite an occasion, and I can remember telling him don’t get too excited just concentrate on what you are doing. So we moved in no trouble at all the flak was very very light we were able to, despite the pathfinder markers we were able to identify our aiming point visually, dropped our bombs and came out without any problem. We were very lucky that we were in the first wave because we were able to bomb and get away from the target before the fighters arrived, in the original plan, four group which I was a member of, was scheduled to go in on the last wave, but because they were frightened of smoke from the ground generators obscuring our aiming point we were reverted to the first wave which was very fortunate but not so fortunate for those who were transferred back from the first wave to the last. There were three aiming points on Peenemunde itself and our aiming point was the living quarters of the scientists and the technicians, and one wag on our squadron said there would be a prize given to the first aircraft back with a scientists spectacles hanging from its undercarriage. Once you begin your final run in you are really under the control of the bomb aimer because he, he’s the one that can only see the actual line of path to the target so he will be giving you instructions, such as, right, left left, right right, steady, until you actually came to the point where he’d say bombs gone. We were only told that it was a, as I said before, a secret RADAR station, and it was some time afterwards before that it was revealed that it was for rocket research. So, of course the best thing was that the day after, it was only after a Spitfire reconnaissance which evaluated the amount of damage that we knew with some relief that we were not going to have to go back that night. The aftermath of course was what was the overall result and it was generally recognised that the rocket programme was put back by at least two months, and in his book Crusade to Europe, General Eisenhower said that the second front would have been seriously compromised had the Peenemunde raid not taken place when it did. It is possible that the raid on Peenemunde could have taken place a lot earlier, because in May 1940 a note was pushed through the door of the British Naval attaché in Oslo, from the writer claiming to have very important information connected with German activities, and if the intelligence people were interested would they put a coded letter or word in the broadcasts that were made usually to the resistance, this was done and another letter was pushed through the door and the sort of information the writer indicated that they had, was to the intelligence people so ludicrous that they thought it must be a hoax, and it was ignored, and it was many many, well this was 1940, it was some years later when snippets of information came through and two German Generals who were in a , they were prisoners of war, were in a bugged room and amongst the things that they discussed was that they couldn’t understand why Peenemunde had never been bombed, this of course brought it to the notice of the authorities and from then on every endeavour was made to secure other bits and pieces of information, to ascertain whether this was true. The final answer to the problem I think was when a WRAF intelligence officer very keenly spotted a launching ramp on one of the reconnaissance photographs, and this really was the, was the result of good reconnaissance, and it really gave the answer that there really was something going on at Peenemunde, and from then on of course a committee was formed Mr Churchill appointed Duncan Sands to chair this committee and eventually after a few meetings it was then that they decided that this would, Peenemunde would have to be bombed. Of course one of the things was how were they going to do it, Air Vice Marshal Cochrane of five group who’s group had been used to some time and distance bombing wanted to go in with about, I think about 150 Lancaster’s, it was also discussed that a small force of Mosquito’s would go in, but Sir Arthur Harris the chief of Bomber Command, he felt that if a raid was going to take place it would have to be successful one hundred percent at the first go, and he made the decision that it was going to be a maximum effort, so all groups of the Bomber Command were going to take part. Consequently almost six hundred aircraft were sent, probably the decision was right because the place was destroyed, virtually destroyed on the first raid. Four days after the raid on Peenemunde, the place was visited by Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, and Albert Speer the armaments manager and they, after a survey Hitler himself decided that the place would not continue to operate, at least on the scale that it had done, and it was then that the whole project was moved to various places particularly the Harz Mountains. Of course the success of the raid was not achieved without some loss and unfortunately the total aircraft loss was forty and two hundred and twenty aircrew were killed, mostly occurred in the last two waves of the, of the raid so as I said before we were very very lucky that we had been moved from the last wave to the first wave, because we were virtually in and out without any problem. Of course the success in some ways of flying on operations is the team work, the crew have got to work together and I was very fortunate I had a very good crew, we originally formed up at OTU at Lossiemouth, it was a question of one person getting to know another. I well remember my bomb aimer coming up to me and saying “have you crewed up yet?” and I said “no” “how about crewing up with me” “yeah sure do you know any navigators?” “Yes I know a navigator” and that’s how it went on, so we finished up with five, and later on we acquired a Mid-upper gunner and a Flight Engineer who was actually allocated to us. We were lucky in this respect because my Flight Engineer’s Wife and Mother ran a pub just outside Horsforth in Leeds so on our nights off all seven of us used to pile into a Morris Eight, and go off to a night out and as you can imagine the customers made a great fuss of us, and we were never short of free drinks. [laughter] I can well remember the only time when my navigator did suffer from, I don’t know what it was, but he suddenly came up on the intercom and said “ Skipper were about ten miles off course” and my reply was “well look we can’t be, I’ve been steering this course that you gave me without any deviation, so get your finger out and get us back on course, otherwise I’ll get the bomb aimer to take over the navigation” this really put the wind up him and he, he got us back on course, don’t ask me why but whether he’d made a mistake with his GEE box fixing it turned out ok at the end. Of course most of our navigation was dead reckoning but the saviour that we had, but it was only I think to about five degrees east that the GEE box from where we could get a fix on our position enabled us to keep to a reasonable course. Of course whilst the aircrew got most of the glory, it was the auxiliary staff that really supported us people like the parachute packers, the ground crew, as far as we were concerned we had an excellent ground crew on our aircraft, everything was tickety boo, the windscreen was all polished they went completely out of their way to make sure that the aircraft we were flying was in one hundred percent condition, and the only way we could reward them was taking them down to the pub on the occasional evening and buying them a few beers, it was our way of saying thank you to them. I well remember that on our last night our very last raid which was a castle, outside the control tower there was a whole host of personnel waving to us a lot of air cadets and when we got to the runway for our final take off the crowd round the caravan way, the crowd outside the caravan the controller which gave you a green light when it was ready for you to take off, and then finally opening the throttles for what you knew was going to be your final operation, and wondering how it was going to go, but of course at that time you were really concentrating on getting the aircraft safely off the ground. I well remember, I don’t know which raid it was but probably my fault we had not secured the front escape hatch properly, and on take off it blew open, my oxygen mask, tube rather was ripped off and I had to borrow the mid-upper gunners oxygen tube, he had rather an uncomfortable flight trying to breathe his oxygen having given up his tube to me, but we did get over it, and we did manage to close the escape hatch with some difficulty, I must take full responsibility for that error. Yes on that final flight when you got the green light knowing that this was going to be your final operation, you had that feeling of great support from those people that were standing there, they knew that it was your final op, and they were willing you to go on and come back safely and that was, that was really comforting, but of course you were more or less concentrating on the take off at that time because that was a very dangerous time for a fully laden, fully fuelled, fully bombed aircraft, until what you reach was known as safety speed, where it was, you were then able to climb to your normal altitude.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Dunn
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-05
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ADunnG150405, PDunnG1501
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:25:12 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
George was born at Whitstable and was 17 when war was declared. He joined the local Defence Volunteers which became the Home Guard. When he reached 18 he volunteered for air crew. He was interviewed at Chatham and sat an exam and selection board to train as a pilot. All of his training was in Canada and his first aircraft was a Tiger Moth. When he returned to England, he was posted to RAF Chipping Norton on Oxfords flying in black-out conditions. From there he was posted to RAF Lossiemouth, operational training unit on Wellingtons. He was then sent to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Rufforth on Halifaxes. George was posted to 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne. He flew operations to Essen, Kiel and Dortmund. On 17/18 August 1943, while based at RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, he took part on the bombing operation to Peenemünde rocket research station.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Canada
Germany
England--Chatham (Kent)
England--Kent
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-08-17
1943-08-18
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
10 Squadron
20 OTU
aircrew
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
civil defence
crewing up
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
military ethos
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Chipping Norton
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
searchlight
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/270/3422/AHeatonSM160322.1.mp3
faf7544445c20c5d8a834bb67cdbf1ae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Heaton, Stuart Michael
Stuart Michael Heaton
Stuart M Heaton
Stuart Heaton
S M Heaton
S Heaton
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Stuart Michael Heaton (b. 1925, 1818543 and 164742 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Heaton, SM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS. This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Michael Heaton at his home in Swiss Cottage London em on the 22nd of March 2016 on behalf of the Bomber Command Archive. Michael thank you very much for allowing you to interview em you, em can I start by asking you where an when you were born?
MH. Yes I was born in Worcester on the 29th of May 1924.
AS. Right and em what, did you have parents involved in the First World War?
MH. No but my parents were living at that time of course but my father was not involved, he was in a reserved occupation.
AS. Oh what, what, what was his occupation?
MH. Em it was em ha, I should know it, it was with a factory in Rugby eh where in fact he met my mother. Em I am just trying to recall the name of the factory but they were making some parts for machines, I just can’t recall the details.
AS. So how did you em, how did you come to be, to join the Royal Air Force?
MH. Of course ah eh I was fifteen when the war started, there was plenty going on very quickly. And eh there was a film I remember, a Holywood film, I can’t remember what the details were but it dealt with eh the crew of a bomber. And eh somehow that had an impact with me and I thought, ‘that is exactly what I want to do when the time comes when I am old enough.’ There was a preparity, prepartity for joining up, for volunteering and I joined the ATC, the Air Training Corps eh which was of immense benefit to me learning about discipline and eh the navigation.
AS. At what age did you join that?
MH. Eh, I was sixteen or seventeen.
AS. And were you at school then?
MH. No eh I was working in a bank in a place called Ledbury in Herefordshire and eh this bank, I was eh educated at Ledbury Grammar School eh which I joined in 1933 and left in eh 1940. And eh the grammar school was also the headquarters for the Air Training Corps. And the two or three years that I was with the Air Training Corps were a tremendous benefit to me both in ways of learning about discipline but more importantly about navigation. And eh when the time came that eh I was eh summoned to Birmingham before eh, before a selection, aircrew selection eh I was already eh quite knowledgeable about em eh navigation and so when I was asked, what would you like to be. That category I told them, to be a navigator. Most boys would go in for to be a pilot only probably to be disappointed because that was overstaffed and eh so I was summoned when I was eighteen to Birmingham for this eh aircrew selection and were there for about two days actually. And at the end of it when I came before the em selectors eh they said to me ‘would you like to join immediately or wait for eight or nine months when you would be sort of called up.’ So I said ‘I would have no hesitation whatsoever I would like to join immediately.’ Went home back to Leadbury, met by my parents in a weeks time I was in the Air Force, that’s how it started.
AS. Where did you do your training?
MH. Well my training which was very long indeed, over about two years. Training a navigator was the longest course of the aircrew officers. So we had to report here in London, St Johns Wood, ACRC, Aircrew Receiving Centre known as “arsey tarsey”or the [unclear] eh and so I reported there at eh [cough] a place just opposite the zoo, London Zoo.And then we were on the go all the time, either peeling potatoes, scrubbing the floors, going to lectures, swimming various things em for about six weeks as far as I can remember. From there we went to our first posting eh on the way to Scarborough on the Flying Scotsman I remember which of course has now come back. And eh that was to the ITW. That was an important first course em all em aircrew went there before they went their different ways. I found it was absolutely no trouble at all because I knew everything they told me through my time in the ATC. So it was immensely helpful in that respect. And the course was about six weeks I can’t quite remember. So do you want me to go on about the training?
AS. Yes.
MH. So having finished that and passed the course we then went to a transit cam, place in Ludlow where we were living in tents out of doors waiting eh for our time to board a ship which would take us to Canada. That was a tiresome place, I found it tiresome anyhow, food was awful etc. From there we went on to Manchester to Heaton Park [unclear] eh and waited there for our time to board the em the Queen Elizabeth. That was a troop ship at that time carrying a huge number of people em to New York. I don’t know how many, there was talk of forty or fifty thousand certainly on, on board the ship you could hardly move. Eh the beds were in layers all the way up with an electric light all the way up. My misfortune was to have one right at the top. Eh I didn’t enjoy the voyage at all, of course there were, there were, there were nothing accompanying us, the ship was very fast. But one thought did think about eh German submarines which were quite active at that time.However, passed without any problems as far as that was concerned. But I felt ill all the time, didn’t know what it was, thought it was sea sickness but it turned out to be em, it turned out to be eh. What is the name of that stuff when you go yellow?
AS. Jaundice.
MH. Jaundice, exactly, jaundice, anyhow I was forced to look at the Statue of Liberty as we sailed into New York. We were treated there with an enormous amount of kindness by the American people. Got bananas which we never heard of course they were not available in this country during the war. Eh I gave the [unclear] so on and so forth and, and from there we boarded a train to take us up to Canada to a place called Monkton on the East Coast which was a sort of receiving station in Canada. Eh and we and I reported sick, that’s when I knew I had jaundice so I went straight to hospital and eh I was there for about ten days or so and eh was then released. So and then from, from that eh receiving centre we were put, we were, we were able to choose actually which place in Canada where we were able to go to. I had met some friends by then and we had wanted to all be together.So most of us managed that and that was in London Ontario. The other place was eh a place near Winnepeg eh, much further eh to the West. So this was a very important eh, eh place to be and high standards were demanded eh and eh threats were made if you don’t do this and don’t pass this you will be off the course and sent home. Eh included amongst that penalty would be air sickness. I was afraid about that because I suffer from motion sickness as a boy and I didn’t tell anybody about it. In fact I found when we got in the air we were so busy I didn’t have time to think about it.So em that was a great relief for me. Anyway this course, the Observers Training Course lasted about four months, about four or five months. And em it consisted of eh well it was like being going back to school really except that the subjects were different. We all lived together in a big sort of Nissan type of a building and time em was divided between em flying or going to this em school. They took em we were er, we were very ,extremely well looked after. I am just looking back, we had absolutely, no, hardly any time for ourselvses. Apart from navigation there were other subjects, meteorology, morse code, armaments to name a few about seven or eight differnent subjects to learn about which we would be examined. And eh it was necessary to get em certain proficiency in them in order to be, to get our brevet.That was, that was available in the end if we passed everything. So there was a certain amount of tension going on, it was very competitive there about eh about eh twenty five or thirty in the class I suppose, eight class, eighty nine A, I remember. The pilots were eh were em not of the Air Force and eh Avro Ansons were the, were the aircraft which was used. We went either as first navigator, we took it in turns as first navigator or second navigator. Got used was getting used to eh preparing a log, doing various tests on eh on board and eh hoping to reach our target at the right time. That was extremely important to do that and hopefully not get lost. I do remember getting lost at night em I had no idea where I was, there were no pin points I could see. Em but the pilot informed me we were near Chicago [laugh]. So many miles off course it was absolutely hopeless. So I thought ‘oh I am not going to pass.’ Anyhow eh it so happened that the commander, the wing commander from time to time flew with eh, with us one by one. And I was very fortunate to have wing commander, I have forgotten his name an extremely nice man. And eh when we were given a target and an ETA you had to arrive exactly at the right time. You got no help with the navigation at all you had to do it yourself. Navigation mainly was by way of pinpoints in order to ascertain the wind eh direction and velocity. That was extremely important to get that right, if you got that wrong you would never get there at the right time or in fact never get there. I so happened on this particular day, it was a fine day, cold, we were in the month of November eh cold but eh very bright and we reached the eh, eh the target exactly on the eta. I do remember the wing commander looking at me and giving me a thumbs up and I thought ‘that was really very lucky that I got there.’ Em do you know the time, I am interested in music eh and eh I play the piano a bit and eh for the Sunday Services. Eh I played well a sort of, more like a harmonium, I think if I remember it and that helped me a little I think. Eh ‘cause I got to know the padre who invited me out to meet his wife and what not. And eh probably the eh wing commander would attend church service so. I was pointed out in some respects which was only a small thing but looking back I think it was quite helpful for me. Anyhow just jumping ahead we did have some time over Christmas, went to Toronto, me some people there, were taken around and enjoyed ourselves. Eh and we were beginning then to think about the end of the course which would probably be around February or March. Eh and at the end of the course that was when the commissions were put out, were granted rather eh and eh, eh there was a big celebration of it. Anyhow, I thought and won’t, remember writing home to my parents, don’t expect me to get a commission it is absolutely hopeless. ‘cause I had been, I hadn’t been so fortunate with my eh flying eh navigation, made several foolish mistakes. Em ground navigation seemed, seemed to be going eh fairly well but I was quite sure that I wouldn’t be selected for a commission. So we came to the end of, the end of the course, I am jumping ahead quite a bit now. Came to the end of the course and we were on parade and our names were called out, mine being one of them and told to stand apart. I thought ‘oh my goodness is this going to be some more trouble?’ One thought and another. But it turned out we were being selected for, for a commission. So I could hardly believe it eh, when, when I heard that was the case. I was the youngest in the class so I thought that was against me to. It was a matter of astonishment for me for this to have happened. We were then left to go to our own devices and send telegrams off to our parents if we wanted to do that and generally jump about and make a noise sort of thing. Eh the award eh we could invite our friends to a big celebration eh where we would be awarded our wings our brevet eh.The band playing and so on. So our friends from Toronto came down I remember and friends we made in London came as well and also it was a very joyful occasion. Then we had leave for em ten days or fourteen days. We went down three of us to New York and had a good time before going back to Monkton in Canada to get ready for the ship to take us back to England. The ship then was the Isle de France and we made eh, we made it safely back to England glad to say. And em we were, had a week leave with our parents when we went home and in our officers uniform. Feeling extremely proud of myself [laugh] and eh and my parents were quite pleased about it I think. From then on eh [cough] eh we to an advanced navigational,advanced navigational course. In a place near Cheltenham I think or Gloucester. Em, it didn’t last very long. And just to get used to navigating over England which is a very different situation from navigating over em Canada.England being far more difficult to navigate. Em then from that place we had an important move eh to eh an aerodrome in Oxfordshire who’s name just escapes me for the moment but that was to crew up. This was a very vital eh matter, it happened eh that eh, it started of in the Officers Mess and it was for, which consisted of eh all, all the groups. Pilots, flight engineer, navigator, wireless operator, gunners and eh, for the, for the captain who was the pilot to select. Well; we were there all in a rather nervous state rather like getting married. Eh waiting for a pilot to come and ask you whither em you would like to be part of his crew. Well I saw a eh fellow and I thought he looks quite a safe type. Pilot officer, he was an extremely important person of the crew because your life depended on him. And eh it just so happened that he came to me and said, eh, he was rather nervous as I was and said eh ‘would you like to be part of my crew?’ Eh so I said ‘yes I would.’ So he said ‘well have a cigarette.’ Since I was a non smoker I didn’t quite know what to do about it. Anyway I thought it was rather unmanly not to have one, so I had the cigarette and was huffing and puffing, didn’t like it very much. Anyhow from that point we both went to a Sergeants Mess in order to fill up the remaining ones. That was again the wireless operator,eh flight engineer, the bomb aimer and the two gunners. The rear gunner and the mid upper gunner, crew of seven which all Lancasters had. Well that took a little bit of time and eh Harold who was my pilot and I, he was very nice. He always used to say to me ‘what do you think about so and so, do you think he would fit in?’ That sort of and our crew came together and we stayed together for the whole of the rest of the time. Of the all the missions were done with the same crew. So having, having got crew that was extremely important we were then going to train on Wellingtons which was a very different matter from being on Ansons. And eh so we had to get used to that and it was at that point to that I first came in contact with radar navigation. At that point, at that time rather eh it was extremely secret and eh, eh we were told without any shadow of a doubt eh terrible things awaited us if we found to be talking about it or in any way discussing it outside of our class. The main, the main radar at that time was GEE, G, double E. Which was a marvellous way of ascertaining where you were. The course lasted, so whilst navigator were learning about this the rest of the crew were in eh, circuits and bumps that’s a very up and down in the Wellington. For a pilot really to get used to a Welling, to a Wellington machine. So I didn’t do very much travelling on the Wellington at that time which I was quite glad ‘cause the circuits and bumps really made me quite, quite nauseous. No sooner were we up but it was time to come down, didn’t like it at all. So I was much happier learning about radar navigation. Em I am skipping ahead, I have forgotten the amount of time we were learning about eh, eh radar. The next station, then we went to was somewhere near eh Leicester, I think was it, I can’t remember. Eh and we were then on Stirlings again it was necessary for the pilot to get use on this big, huge, sprawling eh machine. Eh from navigation course eh we were going on a long trip at night and in the day time, sometimes as far as Cornwall. Sometimes up, eh tried to get eh used to, eh this is for particularly the navigator to get used to eh to using the Gee radar but never forgetting the DR. Eh direct navigation which we had learnt about eh in Canada. We were marked on the logs that we presented eh and from there we went onto another course on Lancasters. A Lancaster Finishing Course again for the pilot to get used to em driving a Lancaster. By this time we, we were, because the next station was a squadron. So we were all anxious of course to get on the squadron and ah we had to pass various tests to do that. Navigation, from the navigation point of view we were marked quite severely on the proficiency, how,we had our logs were examined very carefully. Anyhow all of this was very time consuming of course. We hardly had time to do anything else and eventually from there we were posted to a squadron. This of course was the object of joining the RAF. By this time almost two years had passed with all the various courses as far as I was concerned. The gunners course was much shorter and the other ones to were much shorter. Eh and the squadron was number 50 Squadron which was stationed at Skellingthorpe outside Lincoln, about three miles outside Lincoln and there we stayed until the end of the war. So our training then had finished and I had come to the point when were, it’ the real thing. ‘So should I stop there?’
AS. You started at Skellingthorpe in the squadron can you tell me about, about the missions that you went on, what it was like and what the living accommodation was like?
MH. What the accommodation? Yes, ok so I was an officer a pilot officer eh Howard my em, the pilot was a flight lieutenant. I forgot to mention, he had been a trainer in Canada. Eh and so we went about together a lot eh. We, we had a very cosy sort of a place we were lucky eh the main, we weren’t in with a whole lot of other people, we had a room to ourselves. With a fire lit I remember, it was almost, I shouldn’t say, it was almost like home. We had batmen to look after us or bat women to look after us em [cough] ‘excuse me.’ We being officers of course we had our own mess eh the non commissioned officers the NCOs they had their own mess as well of course. There was a division on the crew with Harold and myself being the only two officers and the rest of the crew being NCOs. But once in the air that didn’t have the slightest difference at all and we were all the same in the air. And em we would go about together too. If we were going into Lincoln for a drink or a night out sort of thing then of course we would go together with the rest of the crew. But on the station we were officers and they were NCOs, there was that difference. And eh the food, the food was very good really eh I don’t, I don’t remember complaining at all about it. We were waited on in the Mess. And em there were frollocks and people getting drunk of course at nights and doing ridiculous things. I suppose that is young men sort of playing the fool and all the rest of it and eh the spirit was “you may as well make hay while you are at work, whilst you have the chance, you might not be here tomorrow.” That, that was not a matter which was eh, dealt, dealt upon, I think it was, we think it was in everybody’s mind.Because one did see empty places in some of the accommodation places when crews had not returned. But I don’t think it was, well for myself eh it wasn’t a matter I dwelt upon. Eh It’s, it’s, it’s difficult, it’s a difficult subject you. Before you went on a raid eh you had to divest yourself of anything that might give your name or any information and put that in a locker. You did wonder, or at least I wondered, ‘I hope I see that again.’ [laugh] because one couldn’t tell. Anyhow we had to have our first operation and this was of course a cause of great excitement for us all and nervousness as well to. The target was Gdynia a port on the Baltic a long way away, long way away for a first, for a first trip. Eh it was at night time eh and eh so we knew we were on a raid that particular night because we were told to report to the briefing room at a certain time, I don’t know what the time was. Probably most of them were late afternoon or early evening for take of. Eh on reaching the briefing room with a whole lot of other crews, the briefing room consisted of all crews sitting round a table in a hap hazard sort of way. Waiting for the commander to come in to tell us what was going to happen. Eh I had all my navigational equipment with me of course, charts, various instruments and all the rest of it in a big bag. And eh we all sat together as a crew and , waited for him to come. Now the, the commander was a man called Wing Commander Jimmie Flint, F,L,I,N,T and he was a well known and,person and continued to be very well known after the war and he lived to be a hundred actually and died only fairly recently within the last couple of years anyhow. He was a man, he was known as “Twitcher Flint,” “Twitcher Flint” a big moustache and eh he would come over and say ‘Well chaps eh, eh you target for tonight.’ Whatever it was, if that target was a long way away a great groan would go up. Eh because it was going to be more difficult and last longer of course. Anyhow this was our first target and eh he would then, various people would come on to give us the directions about the eh course to go there.The track and the course to get to the target and what time it was necessary to get there bye. This, this happened on every target that I was on.So we had to listen. The met, eh meteorological man would come on and eh give his idea what the weather would be. Above all what the winds might be. Of course this was very difficult because nobody was over in Germany to give this information. So we used to regard the wind eh direction and velocity which was given to us as a bit spurious. But anyhow we didn’t have any alternative. So the various, various other people would come sometime to wish us well and then eh it was time to depart for the plane. Now eh the navigator had a lot of work to do at this particular point. He had to plan eh the course and eh get his log ready recording various information. So he was left behind in the briefing room while the rest of the crew went off to the plane. This was always a sort of nervous part I felt. Eh anyhow we had to get this done within a certain time, obviously because we had been given a, we had been given a time for take off and there was quite a lot of work to be done by everybody to do for that time. So after we, the navigators which had remained behind finished their, got all their charts recorded and ready, we went of in the transport. Hardly saying anything to anybody I remember. Sometimes you were the last to be dropped of at your plane and I found out, a very lonely position I must say. Eh dropped of outside the plane, by the time I got there they were revving up, the ground crew were all out.A lot of activity going on the ground eh waiting for me to,to eh get on the plane. I was the last man to get on, I got on, got on the plane over that great hump in the middle of the plane to the navigators cabin. Saying hello to the crew, effectively the wireless operator eh the partition between the navigators cabin and the pilots and the flight engineer and the bomb aimer in front, in front. Almost as soon as I got in eh the pilot wanted, we were all on intercom of course to make sure that was all right and wanted to get going. So I really had to rush pinning down on the chart, getting ready for eh take off. I don’t know how much detail you would like me to go into. Eh for take off we weren’t allowed, the wireless operator and I to sit at our places eh ‘cause in case there was an accident we, we get the worst of it. So we had to go down and squat down between the partition, between the navigators cabin and where the pilot sat, in a squatting position eh until we were airbourne.That happened all the time. There were were always various switches I seem to remember that had to be switched, I really can’t remember the details now but they had to be recorded on my, on my log. As soon as we were airbourne I would be back at the navigators cabin and I was then kept busy all the time until we reached the target. Eh first of all taking off if it, if it was in,in winter of course, darkness came early. But if I could get a pin point or something, well I had Gee of course, I could get some, some eh, eh pin points to put on my chart to ascertain what the wind velocity and direction was which would be helpful to me. As soon as we got near the European coast then the radar was of no use at all because it was jammed by the Germans.They would give you false information which would be disastrous so radar was wonderful up to the, up to the coast but then you couldn’t use it. It was also useful coming back as well. Anyhow from then on it was a matter of eh various legs, legs on the chart which we had given to at the briefing. Eh with order to reach the target, we didn’t go straight there of course, we might go through four, five, six, seven or eight different legs in order to get there. On this particular bombing commission to Gdynia I remember we had to go to Sweden first by various means. Eh, which of course which we shouldn’t have done to get to Sweden and Sweden at that point in Sweden the, the target was, was directly Sotheby. So that is what happened and by that or whatever eh we arrived fairly well on time, I am glad to say which was a huge relief to me. Eh and eh the bombing at the, as soon as we got near, near the target the bomb aimer would then take over the navigation.And he would guide the plane, starboard skipper, port skipper to the actual bombing point and it was up to him then of course to eh, bomb the target. Gdynia was a, was port on the, on the Baltic and as soon as the bombs were dropped everything on the aircraft went up, ourselves included because of the release of the weight of the bombs of course. So I wasn’t used to this, all my navigational instruments went flying everywhere, all over the floor. I should explain that there was a very dark,black heavy curtain eh which joined the eh, em partion between the navigators cabin and, and where the eh pilot sat eh and eh ‘cause I had to have the light on obviously. So I learned a lesson from that to put all the navigational instruments in a bag as soon as we got near the target otherwise you would never find them again. So em quickly to eh give a direction to the pilot making quite sure we were going Westwards and not Eastwards em for the first leg home. There were all the time directions to be given by the navigator to the pilot, eh ‘skipper eh course number,’ Whatever, whatever degree what we,he needed. He eh and I would have eh em a compass inside the navigators so I could tell if he was keeping to that course. That was very important because if comp, if the pilot strayed from the course that was given to him, that seriously affected if we would hit the target. So I would, I would say to him ‘Skipper you are two degrees off.’ Now that irritated the pilot very much indeed once we got back on the ground. Not in the air. He would say to me ‘how do you expect me to keep this course all the time? you don’t realise what a heavy job it is piloting, keeping the course.’ So I said ‘What you don’t realise if we don’t keep the course we won’t hit the target.’ So it was something that happened all the time. But it really was, it really was important that, to do, that he would keep the course. I know it was hard for him and I couldn’t resist it once or twice.[laugh] Well there was the matter of getting home and very important at this point to make sure you were going West and not East for obvious reasons.Then it was the matter of getting back home safely again it wasn’t a direct matter. Eh various legs and all the rest of it and once we got over the, to the North Sea we could use Gee then and home in on Gee and eh and arrive safely. Eh,I just, just mentioned eh I was never very much, my thoughts didn’t go to if we would get shot down and or anything like that. My great fear and it really was a fear, this thing I had dreams about is if we would get lost in the darkness. It was winter time em, very often ten, tenths cloud you couldn’t see anything eh couldn’t you couldn’t have any pin points to [unclear] there was nothing to help you. You had to go on D, direct navigation and, and, and go on what you thought was the right way. All to often we would be flying to a target and the gunners would say ‘oh everybody’s going off to the starboard.’ You think ‘I am not going to the starboard.’ But it caused a certain amount of fear. If you didn’t get to the target on, well if you got to the target on time that was fine, that is what should happen. But it was very, very difficult, only,only a few minutes in a few minutes it was very difficult to do that a long way from home with very little navigational help. Astral navigation was of no good whatsoever because it was too long winded. And the aircraft anyhow getting the bubble and the sextant with the plane jumping up and down.It was virtually impossible and you would probably get a bad reading anyhow.Although we did use it when we were training in Canada as a last resort. But my main fear was getting lost or getting to the target too early in which case you would circle the target which was very dangerous. Or get it too late when the fighters would be up for obvious reasons. And also on, on these raids remembering there were five hundred, seven hundred even a thousand aircraft all bombing at different heights at different times and the, and the chances of, chances of aircraft crashing into each other. That is what was on my mind more that anything else. Also I thought if we got lost, the shame of it all, I would be blamed and eh this worried me intensely I must say.Much more than any sense of danger. Of course it was wonderful getting home and to think we got home safely, we bombed the target and a feeling of exhilaration. The first, as soon as we got of the plane we were welcomed by the ground crew which was always nice. Oh I should have mentioned when we were taking off it was quite customary for the CO to come and see us of, the dentist would see us of, the padre would see us of. Everyone would be waving at us so it was quite nice. Anyhow as soon as we got down the first point to go to was the intelligence and there we were eh quizzed about eh what had happened in the raid. And did we see [unclear] my log was particularly eh necessary.Because we had to make a note of if we saw any planes going down or anything out of the way which had occurred to us had to be marked in our log. So all that information was delivered to em, to them. For the men it was up to the mess for bacon and eggs which was a great treat because eggs we only eat once a week eh and then eh back to our billets. And then next day fine we were on the next night, so I will stop there.
AS. What year was it that you did your first ?
MH. 1944.
AS. 1944 so how many did you do all together?
MH. I’m sorry.
AS. How many sorties did you do all together?
MH. Twenty two we wanted to do thirty because that was the tour. A tour consisted of thirty and we really wanted to do thirty but the war ended to our disappointment.[laugh].
AS. When you were in Skellingthorpe, how much time did you get, did you do, do sorties every, every night or did you have time to rest or were you just waiting for the weather to be right?
MH. Well eh we flew, we flew when we were told to. Eh we obeyed exactly what we were told to do. Yes exactly we had time of. Time of we’d go, we’d go into Lincoln to that pub there I have forgotten the name. I have forgotten the name of it now, a pretty awful pub I seem to remember. Or we would go and see, go to the pictures eh, go and have a supper out somewhere and eh that was nice. We had quite a lot of free time as far as that was concerned. During the day time we had to report to our different sections. I had to report to the navigating sections. Oh by the way to, we had to deliver eh logs to the navigation section and they would be looked at and logged A,B,C or D you know and if they hadn’t been done properly we would be in for trouble. Which I thought was a bit, a bit of unnecessary really for after all, there but anyway that was what it was. There was a good lot of teasing went on and eh it was quite a happy occasion. Eh being in the, being in the mess and getting to know other people. Navigators tended to stick together and each group tended to stick together. But we used to go out as a crew, get drunk and all those sort of things people do or did in those days. I remember it being a socially, happy time.
AS. When you em, how did you hear about the end of the war, when were you told about it?
MH. I think we must have been at the station when we heard about it. Em some people went to London eh, eh I personally made some friends in,in Market Harborough. Met a bank manager there who my family knew his brother and eh they were awfully nice to me I must say and I would go and spend the weekend sometimes with them. Em,sort of a bit like going home. Occasionally we had leave and I could go and for instance on Christmas of that year I was able to go back to my parents. And who were, who were in a state, they were very nervous. They didn’t show it, I only heard about it afterwards. And eh anyhow it was very nice to, I was very fond of them, eh it was very nice to be home again and have proper sheets on the bed.[laugh] and be, and be looked after sort of thing. It was, it was very necessary that you didn’t talk too much about what went on. Eh and especially you shouldn’t write about it eh through your parents or anybody else. A great friend of mine eh from my time at London Ontario, eh made a big mistake in writing to his parents about it. Unfortunately his letter was censored and eh he was had up before the group captain and eh he was all but eh loosing his commission, he didn’t but it was a lesson for him. So, so I had to arrange a scheme with my mother were as I wouldn’t tell her what target we had been on the night before. It was nearly always reported in the newspaper, I used to cut it out of the newspaper and just send this piece of the newspaper to her. So she would know from that and funnily enough only the other day, just before you came. I came across the book that she had kept all these eh cuttings in. So anyhow that is just by the way.
AS. At the end of the war, what happened to you at the end of the war?
MH. Yes, ok at the end of the war was absolutely eh, eh I don’t know, everything suddenly changed all of a sudden em, it was very disappointing in many ways. When we were in uniform during the war the air force, particularly aircrew were regarded with a high, from the public with high regard and eh we were extremely proud of that. Uniform and having a brevet and eh, and being at the squadron we were highly respected. That all vanished as soon as the war was over we were just people again [laugh]. Eh and eh there was a feeling of, well I didn’t have a feeling of relief that the war was over I regret to say. Because I really wanted to complete the tour and, and do the thirty, thirty missions all together.So I was really disappointed and anyhow it was a sort of no mans land type of place. We didn’t know what was going to happen, nobody did. I, I as I say I didn’t go to London to celebrate.But eventually we were given a choice,that we could em, join another squadron which would take us abroad. Because em,a long time had to pass before we could be demobilised in view of the enormous number of people involved. In fact it took me about eighteen months before I was demobilised. So we were [sounds like weren’t] given the opportunity of volunteering em to go abroad in Transport Command. So Howard and I talked about it and I was all for it actually, there was nothing, I didn’t want to go down a mine or, or be a harvester or anything like that. So and I thought there was an opportunity to see a bit of the world so and he seemed to like the idea and the bomb aimer eh, although he wouldn’t be a bomb aimer he would be a second pilot. There would be just four, they would be Dakotas we would be flying, a bit of a come down from a Lancaster. He eh and the wireless operator we decided we would like to do it so we said goodbye to the gunners and the flight engineer. And eh so that was rather sad the crew was broken up actually and I never saw them again. So the four of us were sent up to 10 Squadron which was in a place called Melbourne in Yorkshire and there started training again on, on Dakotas. For me it was easy well very easy indeed I didn’t have much to do and I had almost forgotten pretty much what we do there, what we did there.[cough]. It was to get used to dropping eh materials out of, out of, out of the plane. Eh which I didn’t like the sound of very much. The plane door was open and we had to push things out and get used to that and get used to being in a, in a Dakota. Anyhow and also being on a different squadron which was a Halifax squadron which we thought was going another step down as well. Eh so eventually came a time when we would eh, fly out to India. So that took place from Cornwall and eh I remember my parents were holidaying there. I met up with them there and they saw us of actually. So we flew out to eh India in Dakotas, by stages, by stages from there, the first stage was in,in,in Corsica I think it was. And then to Libya, then to Palestine as it was then, then to em,em East Africa and then to Aden and stopping the night each time. We didn’t do any night flying at all so it took quite a long time to go.Unfortunately from the flight to Aden I developed a sinus which was extremely painful em with the pressure. So I had to stay behind there and they had to get another navigator to take them on to India and I stayed in Aden for a week. The worst week of my life I think, it was just awful feel ill and all alone, heat, humidity, just awful. Anyhow all things come to an end and I eh flew as a passenger to Karachi and then, then eh to Bombay and then was told that 10 Squadron was in Poona only a short way away from Bombay. So we joined the, we joined them there and met up again with Harold of course who by now was a squadron leader, I was now a flying officer, eh and eh the bomb aimer who was a pilot had been commissioned as a pilot officer and the wireless operator, awfully nice guy he was there still as a flight sergeant. And we did trips up to here and there Karachi mainly, mainly and eh then Harold who was quite a bit older, two or three years older than I am was eh demobilised. And returned to Canada where he eh he was married to a Canadian so we said goodbye to him and the bomb aimer to, the second pilot he was called by then. He was an older man to so that just left the nav, wireless operator and myself of the original crew. [door bell rings] Em, so I wasn’t very happy on the squadron and eh, eh there was an opportunity to join another squadron in eh Calcutta, number 52 Squadron and eh volunteers were being asked and Johnnie the wireless operator and myself volunteered to go to 52 Squadron. So they allowed us to go. So we then flew to, as passengers to 52 Squadron in Calcutta. This was to have quite a big effect on my life actually. From 52 Squadron which was a very nice squadron to be on eh, they were flying between Calcutta and Hong Kong. So we then teamed up with a new pilot called Rex Ainsworth who was a very proper pilot with a moustache and eh second pilot Paddy Williamson, four of us. And we flew between Calcutta to Rangoon, to Bangkok, to Saigon to Hong Kong. That was the route, staying of at each place for the night.We all liked Hong Kong so much because there were a lot of things going on there it was fabulous after war rations and so on. Something always seemed to go wrong with the plane at Hong Kong, funny [laugh] Anyhow I left [unclear] and that happened a few times, there were other trips to. Then the squadron moved down to Mingaladon airport, that is the airport for Rangoon. And we were stationed there for a time. Then at long, long last my number for eh came up for,for going home and eh so I went home on,by boat. Took about three weeks, I was home carrying a bottle of whisky and eh eventually to my home to the great joy of my parents and myself and then wondered what am I going to do?
AS. So how was fitting back into civilian life?
MH. Yes that was difficult, that was difficult because we were so used to discipline of the Air Force and how one spoke and behaved and so on. And coming home to civilian. England was in a poor state, this was January 1947. Dreadful winter, one of the worst winters ever recorded and coming straight from, from Burma that was noticeable shall we say. Em getting used to English ways, the country was demoralised. Rationing was worse than it was during the war I think. No idea of a job, I didn’t know what to do, I had been in the Air Force for four years. I didn’t want to go back to the bank eh every thing I saw, the people I thought were lacking in spirit and fed up so what with that and the weather. But, but when I was being demobilised I was told about, there was a course for em ex officers which lasted about eh, eh three I think about three or four weeks,to help you, to help you learn what to do about being a civilian again. I remember this and I thought, the course was at Worcester and only about sixteen miles from where my parents lived, a place called Ledbury in Herefordshire. Em I thought ‘I will go on this course.’ It was a good opportunity, so I went on the course and eh telling us all about accountancy and eh various other subjects and all the rest of it, which is, which is quite helpful. But the main thing about this was at the end of the course, if you were considered suitable, there were offers of various jobs from companies. So I remember BAT, British American Tobacco eh had a job and I thought, ‘I don’t want to stay in England any more it is hopeless, everybody is so down and out, what am I going to do, I had been abroad, I really want something better than this.’ I thought ‘ok I will go abroad again.’ So I applied to BAT and they wrote and said ‘yes we would like to see you, come up to London please.’ So I came up to London and spent two days at one of the railway hotels at their expense and went through a whole lot of questions. And eh seen by a psychiatrist I remember eh, asked all sorts of difficult questions. Hopeless questions just to see how you would react and at the end of it em, eh they said ‘we will get in touch with you.’ At the same time there was another company in Calcutta who were looking for eh a company secretary. I thought oh, well I, I might add I had vowed when I was in Calcutta that I would never in my life, ever [emphasis] return to this city again. It was because of the heat and the humidity and, and poverty and anyhow, so this was in Calcutta. So, so there was a firm with a head office in Coventry Alfred Herbert Leading in Machine Tools [?] So they invited me for an interview as well. So I went to Coventry and eh, and eh there were three or four other people after the same job I think. Anyhow I got an offer of a job from eh BAT at the same time as I did from Alfred Herbert in Coventry. Both very different jobs, there was a snag about both eh. With BAT you had to say you wouldn’t marry before you were twenty five and that you would spent all your working life overseas. I didn’t like either of these at all. Both tying me in. With, with the Calcutta one, the climate and for reasons I have just said I didn’t want to go back there.Anyhow I eventually chose the Calcutta one and I got a job on a four year contract. Went out to Calcutta again[laugh] as a civilian in a very different city for my eyes from what it was before and eh there I stayed for eleven years.
AS. Working for BAT?
MH. No to BAT I said ‘thank you very much I am taking the other one.’ So with Alfred Herbert. It was a good choice, it was a good choice. They had this enormous area of land, the whole of India [unclear] parts of India to cover and Ceylon and, and Malaya and that and Thailand. So it was enormous. And I, I did well there and prospered. I was made a director eh and the only reason I left there really was for health reasons. I really found that my health was suffering because of the climate so I came back after eleven years then had difficulty settling down in England again. But the idea of living abroad now had gone.
AS. When you came back were you working for the same firm?
MH. No, ah it is interesting, when came back, I wanted to go, I went to Coventry eh to see if anything was available and was told ‘we really appreciate what you have done but we are very sorry we haven’t got anything available for you.’ Eh that was a big blow for me because I had hoped maybe to go to Australia where they had a subsidiary company or maybe to Italy. Anyhow,but there was a good reason that they didn’t have anything. Within five years the company was, had been taken over by Government and was, was bankrupt. Alfred Herbert,so Alf, so Alfred Herbert who I met on a couple of occasions at least because his third wife used to live in Calcutta. So that was the sort of common touch and she always wanted to see me whenever I went to Coventry on leave. The four year contract I had with, meant I had to stay in Calcutta for four years. I, I wouldn’t be allowed home in that time eh and eh then I would have six months leave and the next time I went back it was a three[two?] year contract, four and a half years. ‘Are we, are we still on? Oh, can I diverse?Yes.’Once when I was in Alfred Herberts in their factory in Coventry, and enormous factory making machine tools. You couldn’t see the end if you stood up. Because I was a director of the subsidiary company in India eh I was allowed to have lunch with directors and the senior staff in Coventry. So on this particular day eh, I was invited in to have lunch at, at, at the canteen I suppose and they said ‘This is where Sir Alfred generally sits, but don’t worry about it he has gone home and you won’t be in any trouble, just sit there.’ So I was sitting next to the place where Sir Alfred generally sits. Sir Alfred I might add was greatly feared in the whole of the. He had founded the business since I had been, enormously successful for him and eh his word was well, it was wise not to upset him. So there was a general chatter going on whilst you were giving your order for lunch. Suddenly the door opened and in walked Sir Alfred, his Rolls Royce had broken down. So he came in and sat right next door to me. So he said, the waitress came up and eh, so he said ‘I will have this or the other for lunch.’ And then turned to me and said, everybody was quiet at this time of course. ‘Well Heaton,’ he said ‘Tell us something about India.’ Well of course I was enormously embarrassed so I said ‘well Sir eh, it’s very hot.’ [laugh] He saw that I was embarrassed and [laugh] moved into other conversations. Anyhow when, when I had decided to leave and eh he wrote me a letter, personal which I still have eh and asked me what my reasons were for leaving India. And I told him, eh I think he was afraid that I might be, I might know something about some wrong doing or something like that in the firm. And I was very friendly with his grandson actually eh and he thought I would tell him, because he addressed this letter not to the company but to my private residence. Then said when I came home eh that I should report to him. So I had hopes of that but in that time he had died at ninety one. I have a photograph of him in my study that I can show you in due course and you can see from his face the sort of man he was. Well then, when I came home, then I, what am I going to do? How can I can a job? Well, started looking at advertisements all the rest of it. And eh wrote of eh tantalising letters I hoped to eh, to eh various places who I thought would be very happy to have me with my, with my Indian experience and being a director at a young age and all the rest of it. I thought, I had high hopes, I said to my mother ‘don’t worry I will soon get a job.’ I didn’t get a job. Those people who replied to me were terribly sorry, not suitable eh disappointing thing. In the meantime time was getting on and eh, eh I was running out of my leave pay, final pay. And eh, so very disappointing, getting a bit disheartened as well thinking is something the matter with me. And so I was looking in the Telegraph and I saw there was eh, there was a estate agency up for sale, for half sale. So I said to my mother ‘I will go and have a look at that.’ In Surbiton near London. So my mother came with me, we went to Surbiton and so this rather pokey business and half of it was available to me if I bought it for two thousand five hundred pounds, which was quite a sum in those days. We are talking in nine, eh nineteen fifty nine, fifty eight, nineteen fifty eight.Anyhow short of the tale was I thought ‘blow it, yes I’ll pay it.’ So I bought half the company without knowing anything at all about estate agency. But I felt I had to get away from Ledbury and that was, that had been the problem actually. Anyhow I started work with this company. Didn’t like it very much, thought I would have to make a go of it. Found out [unclear] there had been some fiddling about.With the customers deposits being used for paying wages or something. When I asked my partner ‘what is all this about?’ So he said ‘well we haven’t got the money.’ I said ‘you can’t use this to pay.’ So straight away, up to see solicitors, they said ‘you must resign at once and get out of it.’ Which I did, I thought what about my money ‘well you will, see what the best we can about that.’So there I was having bought a house in eh, em, I have forgotten what the place was Hersham, Hersham on Thames and eh back to square one. So then I started asking, answering advertisements and immediately got a reply and got a job straight away, Bush House as a company secretary. I stayed there for one year, there was no, no eh future for me in there. Eh I looked at another advertisement in a, in a print, printing factory also for a company secretary, got that without any trouble. That was sold to Pitmans and new people came in, didn’t like them, stopped there. Moved out of there, got a job with International paints, eh a job much lower than normally I would have taken there. And quite enjoyed it, I thought I must make a move again. I saw an advertisement in the paper em, eh jeweller requiring a company secretary must be about forty, that was exactly my age. I applied for it, then I was asked. ‘Am I boring you with all this? Just stop me.’
AS. Please carry on.
MH. Tizex[?] were the people concerned I had to go to them first and as luck may have it there was a, a Sir Hilary, somebody I forgot. Anyway he was a rear admiral during the war and in the Indian Ocean. So Indian Ocean, I thought ‘oh India.’ So I mentioned ‘Really where were you in India?’ That put me out from other people who were applying for the job, I believe in retrospect. So Anyhow, he said ‘ok I have got to see a lot of people, we will be in touch.’ About a month went past, he rang me up one evening at home, he said ‘are you still interested in the job?’ I said ‘yes I am.’ So he said ‘come and see me again.’ So I went again and he told me more about the job. The job was Ciro Pearls Ltd with eh, with em shops in this country, in Germany in and in America. Eh so widely run. So he said you [pause] ‘look shortlist now six people and eh you will be hearing from them.’ Anyhow I heard from them, present yourself at the shop in Regents Street and I was the last one. Oh Chairman a very nice man, a Russian Vladimir Gorash em. I have got his photograph here to.And eh a few simple questions. In short I went home it was Easter time, I said to my mother ‘I think I have got that job.’and I had. When I got back there was the offer. Well that’s my last, I was with them for twenty five years. Em,and rose to be Managing Director and in time Chief Executive Officer of the entire group. So it was really a good move. So I did a huge amount of travelling particularly in America, East to West Coasts. Em all over in this country,right up as far as Aberdeen. [Unclear] in Germany many[unclear] and in Austria we opened a shop in Vienna another one in Saltsburg. France in Paris altogether about a hundred shops altogether or about a hundred outlets I should say. There em and I retired em when I was sixty five having done twenty five years with the company. Em; did well salary wise eh was almost my own boss pretty well. The eh, the,the Russian Chairman retired and died.And eh I became, became, I took over his job and held that for about eh oh I suppose twenty years going up to that job altogether. So, so it finished, a highly satisfactory, very interesting, the shops were all in the best possible places. I travelled by Concorde or first class. I was expected to, to eh act in a, a certain way and with that came all these props as well. So it was a very interesting job for me. Quite unlike anything I had done previously. I went round the world once and called in on Calcutta to my old place again to in Alfred Herbert and met some of the staff which were still there. So em and since then retirement, just enjoying myself until now[laugh].
AS. Thank you very much as far as your aircrew were concerned you said that you, when you changed squadrons and went over to India you left three of them behind and you never saw them again. Did you keep in touch with any of the other aircrew.
MH. Yes my pilot, yes until he died, he was in Canada.
AS. Was he a Canadian?
MH. No.
AS. But he married a Canadian.
MH. Yes, he was, he was a teacher an RAF teacher there, an instructor. He was an instructor in Canada em then he decided he wanted to take a part in the war.He was in the Air Force as an instructor, he wanted to take part in the war and came back to England and that’s where I met him. But he had married when he was in Canada, this Canadian girl. Em, so he came back by himself leaving her out in. in Canada. She actually did come over with a view of staying in, in this country until the end of the war but she hated it so much that she went back to Canada. So he was without his wife until he went back again. Unfortunately he was on the booze and he died, he was only sixty nine.
AS. Oh right.
MH. The others I have lost touch with.
AS. Right, well thank you.
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AHeatonSM160322
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Interview with Stuart Michael Heaton
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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01:22:28 audio recording
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Pending review
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Andrew Sadler
Date
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2016-03-22
Description
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Michael Heaton grew up in Worcester and was a member of the Air Training Corps. He worked in a bank before joining the Royal Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. He completed 22 operations as a navigator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. After the war he was transferred to Transport Command with 10 and 52 Squadrons in the Far East. Following demobilisation, he went into various jobs and when he retired he was the CEO of Circo Pearls Ltd, where he had worked for 25 years.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
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Canada
East Asia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
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Hugh Donnelly
10 Squadron
50 Squadron
52 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
C-47
demobilisation
fear
Gee
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
RAF Melbourne
RAF Skellingthorpe
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/576/8845/AGoughH150922.2.mp3
c57cda680fc05053c4ed864f4febb674
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Gough, Harry
H Gough
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Gough, H
Description
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An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Harry Gough (1925 - 2016, 1590911 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 10 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-09-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Ok so it’s Tuesday 22nd September 2015 and we are in Tingly near Wakefield and this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre and I’m talking today to
HG: Harry Gough.
AM: Harry Gough. So if you would Harry would you just tell me a little bit about your childhood, and where you were born and what your parents did.
HG: I was born in Dewsbury, er Dewsbury Moor actually. My father at that time was er worked in the steel industry at Click Heaton up to me being probably six or seven and then he er decided to leave that and er go into the licensing trade being er, what is it, er steward at a working men’s club that would be when I was six or seven er.
AM: What was it like being a child working in a, er living near a working men’s club then, where you living there in it?
HG: No no we lived away from it
AM: Oh, Oh
HG: But er at that time, funnily enough we were only on about this a few days ago er the way families were brought up, I think it was when Victor was up er, I was the youngest of seven and the house we had a small terraced house (pause) you couldn’t say it was a one up and one down but that’s basically what it was one large bedroom and a small one at the top of the landing so that was the earliest I remember being there er.
AM: What about the bathroom and toilet, where were they?
HG: Oh no bathroom (laughs) there there were sink in the corner
AM: And a tin bath
HG: Tin bath yeah and a toilet way up the yard and er you prayed every day that it didn’t you didn’t have heavy rain (laughs) er but we moved into a council house at that time when I was seven and er there again seven of us and it was a three bedroomed council house you know people just wouldn’t have that today would they and er from there er went to the local school, broke my leg playing football er recovered from that and we moved into a public house then in Dewsbury the Great (unclear) Hotel in Dewsbury and we were there for two years transferred our interest to Leeds another pub, another two years, or less than two years, back to Morley (unclear) Morley and that another pub eventually er and that when my schooling finished that would be 1939
AM: So how old were you then?
HG: Fourteen
AM: Fourteen
HG: My eldest my second eldest brother he worked in the textiles and he had to work at Putsey and he had to go by bike from Morley to Putsey on the night shift his wage was twenty six bob a week so he’d had enough of that and he volunteered for the army me being the stupid lad, oh no I’m not stupid, er if he was having action I wanted it as well so I wanted to go in the boys army along with him er, my father agreed to it but er mother said no you’re not and that was the end of that up to er 41 and er I joined the air training corps local squadron at Morley and er in there until volunteering for the air force in 43 and er eventually accepted and I did the er air crew assessment at Doncaster and er they were full up with pilots and full up with navigators
AM: Everybody wanted to be a pilot
HG: (Laughs) that’s right (laughs) right well if you got to be a gunnery course that’s it well I wanted to fly anyway so it was August 43 when I eventually went and er signed on down at Lords cricket ground, lad at 18 years old and going to London you know, never been out of his home town I don’t think, occasional holiday but not many of those I kind of remember going on holiday with my parents more than once
AM: How did you get to London then did you go on the train?
HG: Train yeah yeah, I suppose you get on the train and follow the crowd (laughs) er when we were there our initial signing and initial whatever it is medicals and er up to er for a fortnight to three weeks and then back up into Yorkshire to Bridlington
AM: So in that three weeks what were you doing?
HG: er getting kitted out
AM: What sort of things?
HG: Medicals er several injections whatever they call them er but er my sister was stationed in London at the time she was in the WAFS and er we met up a few times at er I think it was just routine things er drills whatever marching to the London zoo for meals and er yeah and I met up with a gunner we met on the first day we were there
AM: What was he called?
HG: Bill Field from Chester we were about the same age and er we were together right the way through to finishing flying
AM: Really
HG: We did a gunnery course did our basic training in Bridlington over to Belfast or near Belfast for gunnery school
AM: What was the gunnery school like what sort of things were you doing there did you have to strip em and put em back together and all that sort of stuff
HG: No no you had to do theory work on the guns but er mainly it was er rifle shooting for the clay pigeon shooting er then up in the Avro Ansons for air to air gunnery
AM: So when you say air to air what were you shooting at
HG: A draw yeah there’d be another Emerson dragging a draw if you were lucky he ate it (laughs)
AM: Did you
HG: Well I got a percentage of it whether that’s true or not I don’t know I think they just put this percentage out to get you through and make sure you had a rear gunner or something.
AM: Mmm
HG: But er that was I finished there New Year’s Eve we left New Year’s Eve in 43 that was it so from August I’d done all the basic training air gunnery training and passed out as a Sergeant air gunner before I was nineteen
AM: Blimey
HG: When you think about that you know think about that lady how stupid can it be but er it wasn’t just me everybody was on it er and after a short period at home then oh we finished up in Scotland on New Year’s Eve at Stranraer bit frightening (laughs) as an eighteen year old a bit frightening
AM: Laughs
HG: But er nevertheless we caught the train early morning and er early morning made our way home. After a few days at home up to er Kinross forest in Kinross in Scotland
AM: Scotland again
HG: That was for er crewing up and er operational training
AM: So how did the crewing up go cos’ you’d already got your mate with you
HG: Yes we stuck together all the time did Bill and I and er I don’t remember er well
AM: Who chose who?
HG: (Pause) I think the pilot chose us (laughs) why he did I don’t know er
AM: Maybe he could see there were two mates together and he wanted…
HG: Yes I think that had a lot to do with it we’d been together as pals and Harry Harrison the pilot er then he’d already met the er navigator Johnny Hall from Bradford from there we all got together Scottish wireless operator Cockney lad for a flight engineer and er I don’t remember where he come from South Midlands somewhere… Leicester and er how long did that last probably January late February early March
AM: So that’s where you flew together as a crew then
HG: Crew yes flying Whitley’s doing all the basic things turning dinghy’s over in the bath (laughs) when you can’t swim it’s er a bit of a nightmare but we got through it er
AM: Why turning dinghy’s over in the bath, in case you got shot down
HG: Yeah in case you got shot down
AM: Or crash landed in the sea
HG: Yeah yeah and er flying Whitley’s er the flying coffin some of the cross countries that we did six hours in the rear turret of a Whitley not very nice but it was enjoyable because that’s what I wanted to do er from there we went to er Marston Moor er heavy conversion unit flying the Halifax Mk 2.
AM: Right
HG: Which you don’t get to know until later that was the worst period of your service flying in a Halifax Mk 2 you were safer flying in the Mk 3 and 4 going on operations
AM: Why was that?
HG: They were very unreliable er basically because of the engine I think er and the tail unit the tail unit of the Halifax changed a great deal and they put revised engines in then and they were a much sounder aircraft
AM: Right
HG: But er we didn’t get none (unclear) you were in a death trap really (laughs) but er we got through that and we floated about then in Yorkshire for some reason (unclear) and Maltby, Driffield just for nightly stays and things like until we got posted to a squadron which was Melbourne ten squadron
AM: And there was ten squadron
HG: Mmm from there well
AM: What was your first operation like then
HG: What was it like
AM: Well can you just, I can’t imagine how it must of felt
HG: (Pause)
AM: I bet you can’t remember (laughs)
HG: No I can’t remember, no I can’t remember (pause)
AM: Bacon and eggs
HG: (Laughs) oh aye coming back to bacon and eggs that’s what that’s what you looked forward to but never when they all went out on operations did I ever think that I wouldn’t get back never never entered my head that I would never get back
AM: Did you have any close shaves
HG: (Pause) I suppose there were one or two where er the fighters were about but er in the main there were I think the biggest (unclear) were the night operations which you know they were a bit backwards at coming forwards at coming up in the dark they’d wait till the Yanks went over in the day light and have a go at them
AM: Have a go at them
HG: But er anti-aircraft fire unnerving but even then never entered my head that er I wouldn’t get back
AM: And you were right
HG: Mmm
AM: What was it like ‘cos you were the rear gunner so as you’re coming away bombs have been dropped?
HG: That’s right
AM: And you can see
HG: Yeah
AM: What’s, what’s happened
HG: Oh the in most cases the place was ablaze down below and er I suppose you think at the time oh great we’ve done a good job
AM: Yeah
HG: It isn’t until later days you know was it all that good you know what damage did we do I mean innocent people were killed but this is years later you think about this
AM: I was gonna say that because at the time you were doing it
HG: We were doing what we would been trained to do and er got satisfaction out of doing it as well but er pub visits at the night when you weren’t on operation a little bit naughty at times but er
AM: I’m gonna have to ask you, in what way naughty
HG: Well I don’t know it er probably drink more than what you should really
AM: You’re still only twenty by this time nineteen
HG: Nineteen yes I finished flying before I was twenty so I were only well at that time you were what you called kids at eighteen you weren’t adults at all you were classed as kiddies really
AM: Did you fly with the same crew all the way through
HG: Yes yes stuck together all the way through thirty three operations
AM: Thirty three, blimey, I can see we’ve got your log book is there anything
HG: Laughs
GR: Well your first operation was a daylight
HG: Yeah it was
GR: According to this yeah Macer Owen
HG: Taverni was it
GR: Yeah Macer Owen…and your last op was Christmas Eve (Laughs)
HG: Yeah yeah fly from the 23rd (unclear) the 24th
AM: And you said to me before about the fact that it was Christmas Eve and that was your last one
HG: Yeah
AM: About your mum and dad
HG: Yeah at the time it never struck me at all that it was any different to any other operation or you know you feel a sense of relief that the operations are over but it was only oh much later that I thought about these things. I don’t know what my parents were really thought about me being in the Air Force and what I was doing what it meant to them but what a Christmas box it must have been if that’s the way they thought about that I wasn’t in danger of being shot down or losing my life or whatever er after that particular time I never mentioned it to them in fact it was after they’d both passed I think my dad thought about it but er
AM: Yeah so what did you do after you finished your operations
HG: Oh dear I got kicked about and er
AM: (Laughs) did you do any training or TU stuff
HG: No I went into air traffic control actually
AM: Ahh
HG: Er when they finally got me settled down at Shawbury which was the number one flying training school was it, that’s where the (unclear) flew from when we went over the North Pole wing commander Mcclurough I think it was er I did a few months there I was there up to er VE day which was in May wasn’t it
AM: Mmm
HG: 45 and on VE day I travelled to Valley on the Isle of Anglesey and I was there until after VJ Day, (pause) VJ day what a night
AM: (Laughs)
HG: There was a black and tan drink then wasn’t there Guinness and beer black and tan
GR: That’s right yeah
AM: Mmm
HG: Still only twenty and I’m drinking black and tans I didn’t eat anything for four days (laughs)
AM: Laughs
GR: Laughs
HG: That’s when I learnt how to drive er air traffic control there was a (unclear) out there are you alright, yes I’m alright, never driven a van in my life (laughs) and there was some…how do I start this thing, (laughs) and away I went, but er bit precarious but er
AM: On a road or
HG: No no on the air field on the air field
AM: Just as well
HG: Yeah (laughs) well from the mess to the er traffic control and whatever to the end of the runway and back and things like that but er and from there not long after VJ Day I went back to Shawbury again well just how long I was there I can’t remember can’t remember and by this time I’d er already got my Flight Sergeant that was late 44 I got my Officer late 45 when I was still at Shawbury and then went to various places then just two or three days stopping at one near Warrington I can’t remember I can’t remember what place it was
AM: I wonder why, why were they moving you about like that?
HG: To find getting a posting you just couldn’t get (unclear) to come out I did want to come out anyway because I had the chance to come out on was it class B release or something because I worked in the textiles before I went in and there was no way that I’m going back into textiles after being in the air force and the excitement that I’d had or the life that I’d had and they kick you about a bit until er they get you a posting and I finally got a posting to er Austria just outside Vienna (Schwechat) but in the meantime for some reason that I don’t know why and I always thought it was a bit unfair you had to re-muster and you lost your seniority rank you were taken down from Warrant Officer back down to sergeant in rank but not in pay you still got your Warrant officers pay and it always hit me that er you know you’ve done this, you’ve volunteered for this, you’ve done your flying you’ve done your duty and everything that’s been asked of you and you’ve been fortunate enough to get through and then they demote you which didn’t seem fair to me at all, er but as I say the money was still there you were a Sergeant with a Warrant Officer’s pay and er went to Vienna (pause) mid July 46 July 46 that’s right er (pause) yeah and I enjoyed that er in air traffic control again er the surrounding area you were in the Russian border so you had to be very careful what you were doing but you were allowed out of camp and there was woodlands and through the woodlands you got to the er river what is it in Vienna come on Clarice what river is it in Vienna
AM: I can’t think I should know and I can’t it’s not erm
HG: I’ll be dammed
AM: No it’s gone I can’t remember
GR: Could be the Rhine
HG: No
GR: The Rhone
HG: No
AM: I can’t remember either
HG: Crazy isn’t it, crazy
AM: I’ll find it after, the river in Vienna anyway
HG: Yeah er out of camp and through this woodland I actually walked on the river it was that cold it was frozen over it was really really cold but er the camp that’s about itas much as I can remember about it other than we often visited Vienna itself not nightly but certainly two or three nights a week and really enjoyable and er the diesel in the truck that took us down would often freeze up so you were stuck there in the middle of the night (laughs) trying to keep warm
AM: Laughs
HG: But er I suppose the most that I remember about that there were three of us myself a Geordie lad ex air crew and a Scotch lad ex air crew and we got to like our drinks a little bit I always remember one afternoon we were drinking in the bar and we drunk that bar absolutely dry
AM: There’s a there’s a thread running through this story isn’t there (laughs)
HG: (Laughs) we drank that bar absolutely dry we finished up drinking port of all things and we sat in this bar and an electric light, (pause) can’t be a fire can’t that and it was and er the electrics in upstairs room had caught fire and er everybody had to bail out of course and this Scots lad he went absolutely berserk and we were just across from the er guard room and er the three of us were taken into the guard room and this guy was given morphine to quieten him down he was really really bad so that was almost the end of my service in Vienna we got kitted out and put in with the airmen for the rest of our stay there but er came back to er Blackpool and we were de-mobbed
AM: You were de-mobbed so you did leave in the end
HG: Yes
AM: What did you do afterwards, not textiles?
HG: Oh dear er I did for a very short period my brother worked in the textiles then my elder brother er and I batted it out (unclear) while the money lasted you know (laughs) er eventually I had to get a job so I went there and er oh I think three or four week I’m not sticking this (laughs) and er what did I do from there oh cigarette people Ardath cigarette people they had er they were based in Leeds and I met Gladys then well we’d known each other years but we got together then and er I was there for quite a while months not years months and then we got married February 48 wasn’t it
GH: Mmm
HG: And er these people kind as they are you know oh yes you can have a week off it’s your summer holiday that’s fine as long as I can have a week off we got married had the week off and went down to Kent on our honeymoon and came back and gave my notice in (laughs) they can’t do that to Harry and er from there I went into engineering in Bradford not a very happy time because I was working with people who’d been er what do they call when they weren’t called up
AM: Erm not (unclear) to subject as if they’d been in a reserved occupation
HG: Like a reserved occupation and you’re working with these guys and (unclear) so that didn’t last very long either (laughs) er and from then I went to the Gas Board
AM: Right
HG: In 49 and er that’s been my life I suppose ever since
AM: You stayed there ever since
HG: The Gas Board er finished and had a period with the water authority and I had one spell in between the Gas Board and the water what was that er what do they call it fibre glass moulds making moulds out of fibre glass and it was the summer of 49 I don’t know if you remember it and it was absolutely scorching I think it was 49 48 48 49
GH: There weren’t many in 48
AM: Late forties must’ve been 48
HG: Yeah around 48 49 really scorching and a perspex roof and you could see all this fibre glass
AM: I was gonna say dust I would imagine it’s
HG: Floating about I though oooh Harry (laughs) get out
AM: You don’t want that on your lungs
HG: That was enough of that so from there I went to an outside job with the water authority and thankfully was able to stay there
AM: Stay there ever since
HG: Until I retired
AM: and you know you said just just going back to the bombing bit for a minute you said that at the time what everybody’s said to me we had to do it that’s what we were there for you did it
HG: That’s right
AM: But later on you did start to think about
HG: Yes you did yes you did
AM: The women and children and what have you
HG: And I think what brought that to my mind more than anything was er Munich ‘cos they really did we never went to Munich but er they really did flatten Munich and there must’ve been thousands of innocent people that died because of that and er (pause) were we doing the right thing that’s the way I thought of it later but er but at the time yes that’s what you joined up for that’s what you volunteered for they want you to do it get it done
AM: And that was to bring the war to an end
HG: That’s right yeah
AM: Excellent, I’m going to switch off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Gough
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-22
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoughH150922
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:30:08 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Gough was born in Dewsbury, he finished school in 1939 aged fourteen, joined the Air Training Corps in 1941 and volunteered for the Air Force in 1943. He recounts his training as an air gunner and flying over the North Pole. After flying operations he was posted to Austria as an air traffic controller. He was demobbed and after the war he worked for the Gas Board and Water Authority.
Contributor
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Carron Moss
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Austria
Great Britain
Austria--Vienna
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Anglesey
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1941
1943
1944
1945
1946
10 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
crewing up
guard room
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Initial Training Wing
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Bridlington
RAF Kinloss
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Melbourne
RAF Shawbury
RAF Valley
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/602/8871/PMannionF1501.2.jpg
c22677c13690661250851232fca97513
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/602/8871/AMannionF150910.1.mp3
0f083b5239e43b2f309588500024a155
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mannion, Frank
F Mannion
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mannion, F
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. Collection concerns Flight Sergeant Frank Mannion (1921 - 2016, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 10 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war. Includes an oral history interview, some details of forced march as a prisoner, notes on some of his operations and a photograph.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Mannion and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Ok. So, it’s Thursday the 10th of September and this is Annie Moody on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre and I’m talking today to Frank Mannion at his home in Glossop. So, Frank if we start off just tell me a little about where you born, your childhood, your parents.
FM: I was born in Manchester. I went to work at Metropolitan Vickers. I served my time as an electrical engineer. When the war started I was still serving my apprenticeship so after I served my apprenticeship I went in to the RAF.
AM: Can I wheel back a bit? Where you born, Frank?
FM: Gorton.
AM: You were born in Gorton.
FM: Yes.
AM: What did your parents do?
FM: My father’s an electrical engineer. My mother’s a dressmaker.
AM: Right.
FM: I had two brothers and four sisters. I’ve only one brother left now. A younger brother.
AM: Right. Where did you go to school, Frank?
FM: St Anne’s, Fairfields in Manchester for a start. And then the secondary school was St Gregory’s in Ardwick.
AM: Oh right. Yeah. How old were you when you left?
FM: Fifteen.
AM: You were. Did you do school certificate then? Or —
FM: I did but I couldn’t tell you where that is now [laughs] yeah.
AM: And then — so straight after school.
FM: Yeah.
AM: That was when you — what did you do straight after school.
FM: I went in to, went to work at Metropolitan Vickers.
AM: As you said.
FM: As an apprentice. Yeah.
AM: At Metropolitan Vickers. What did they do there then? At Metropolitan Vickers?
FM: Well it was what they called electrical scientific instrument maker. Well, basically I was an electrical engineer training in electrical engineering.
AM: So what sort of things did you do then?
FM: Now, you’re asking me.
AM: I’m going back a bit.
FM: All sorts of things electrically.
AM: Yeah.
FM: We were trained from the very basic parts of electrical circuits right through to what they did do. Well, as far as you can go now as you know. We didn’t do nuclear engineering. That wasn’t in the system then but we went through all the system as regards engineering in the electrical side.
AM: Right.
FM: Instrument making and all that sort of thing.
AM: Right. So, then what made you decide to join the RAF?
FM: Well, we were in the blitz a few times in Manchester. In the shelter. And I thought well one of these days I’m going to have a go at this lot myself. And when I finish serving my time I’m going to see about getting in to the RAF. Bomber Command. And train to be a pilot. And that’s what I did do.
AM: Right.
FM: But when I joined the air force they accepted me. I was creditable as regards training for a pilot. Physically and everything else. But then they told me they’d got a lot of young men waiting to be trained. They couldn’t cope with them all so they sent me back to work.
AM: Right.
FM: And after a while they got in touch with me and said they still had a lot of people, young fellas, waiting to be trained as pilots but they were short of air gunners. Was I interested? So, I joined the air force and became an air gunner.
AM: You became an air gunner.
FM: Yeah.
AM: Where did you, where did you go to join up? Can you remember? Would it have been nearby or did you have to travel to it?
FM: St Johns Wood was the place where I — in London.
AM: Right. So that was where you did the first —
FM: Yes.
AM: Training.
FM: Yes. And my brother, my older brother was down there. He was in the REME. Electrical engineers. Mechanical and electrical engineers and he also boxed for, boxed for Southern Command. And —this day or this evening he came across to St John’s Wood and with one or two of the big hefty boxers in his lot and asked the people there could they let me out to take, they wanted to take me to a show which they did do. So, there’s this little Frank and all these big fellas. I think it was Vera Lynn. I’m not sure.
AM: Yeah.
FM: But it was somebody. A well-known singer. Yeah.
AM: What was the food like? I’ve heard different reports about the food at St John’s Wood.
FM: Normal. I couldn’t see that it was any different than —
AM: So, it —
FM: Well food was different in those days as you know. You only got this — so much of this and so much of the other. I mean when you were at — well when I was at home and I got my chocolate or whatever it is — a certificate or whatever it was to get some food I dashed off to the shop and bought some chocolate and ate it. That’s what I did. And we were all the same. But I couldn’t tell you any more about food. It wasn’t very very good.
AM: No.
FM: It was very limited actually.
AM: Yeah. It’s just somebody said they actually went across the road to the zoo for their food and whatever it was he didn’t like it. Anyway, that’s another story. So then, so St Johns Wood. Then where did you go after St John’s Wood? Or what did you do? What — what came next?
FM: I was trained on the Isle of Man. Riccall.
AM: Right.
FM: No. Not Riccall.
JM: Jurby.
FM: Jurby. On the Isle of Man. And from there I think I went to Riccall from there after being trained. Went up to Lossiemouth. Did some more training up in there. Scotland. Came down and I —then I went to Riccall. And that’s where I met my pilot and the rest of the crew.
AM: So, what was that like? Crewing up. Who got hold of who?
FM: Well, we just all stood there looking at one another and, you know, blokes — fancy going with him there. And that’s what they did. And I just didn’t do anything. Waited until there was just myself and another chap left and the other two went with this Canadian pilot. George Kite. And he was a big fella. Smart. Strong looking fella. Never had a lot to say but a very nice chap. The navigator was also Canadian. He was a very nice quiet bloke he was but very nice. We had various wireless operators. Different ones so we had one or two left because they had enough of their operations. One or two were filling in because we were short of one. In the end we got Saunders. Alex Saunders. A Scotch lad. And he was the one that was with us when we were shot down.
AM: Right.
FM: And he was the one that got killed.
AM: Ok. So, when, so you’ve crewed up and then I think — I can never remember the order it comes in. You go for your heavy conversion.
FM: Yeah.
AM: Training after that.
FM: Yes. Yes.
AM: What was that like then?
FM: Well I think we did some of that — well Wellingtons I think. Lossiemouth. And then we went on to Halifaxes doing flying about the country in daytime. You know. In fact, I don’t want to tell too many things about it but —
AM: Oh, you can do.
FM: I’m all on my own at the back of the aircraft. In my turret there. Sat on my own there just doing nothing. At night time it was just horrible doing nothing. Just there. In the daytime you could have a good look around. But the pilot, George Kite, every now and again he’d call me up to the front. He wanted a smoke and I used to take charge of the aircraft. I used to fly the aircraft for a little while he was stood at the side of me.
AM: Is this in training or actually on operations?
FM: This is while we training. Yeah.
AM: While you were training.
FM: Yeah. But this wasn’t supposed to, this wasn’t the accepted thing. But that’s what we did anyway and I suppose lots more crews did similar things. Funny things like that.
AM: Yeah.
FM: We just wanted to make as much of the time we could do. It was very boring to be sat there on your own.
AM: Yeah.
FM: Doing nothing. Being frozen to death. So that’s what he did. He wanted a smoke and he asked, ‘Do you want to come to the front?’ Yeah.
AM: So where were you posted to ready for your first operation?
FM: Oh, that was Melbourne. 10th Squadron. Yorkshire. 4 Group.
AM: Yeah. Beautiful church there.
FM: Is there?
AM: Yes.
FM: Oh, now you’re telling me something.
AM: And can, can you remember the first operation? What it was like. What it felt like.
FM: Well, I’ve got a list of them actually. Well it wasn’t —
AM: But the actual feeling of the first one.
FM: Yeah. Well, we were a bit apprehensive but it was somewhere in France and after that, coming back, I thought well that wasn’t too bad. It was, you know, what’s all the fuss about? It wasn’t too bad. And that was what the first one was like and gradually I got to know why people were getting frightened of going on operations because it all started to come about because you could see aircraft being blown out of the sky. All sorts of things. Collisions. And all that. And it wasn’t very pleasant after that. Very dangerous. And you got to a point where you knew sometime you were going to get shot down. Went on and on and on. And eventually we were shot down on our thirty seventh operation.
AM: What can you remember? Can you describe that?
FM: Well if you want. Eighteen months or so ago. What’s — the Rotary, was it the Rotary love?
JM: Hmmn.
FM: They asked me if I’d go and talk to them about Bomber Command. I’ve never spoken to anybody about it. So, I said, ‘Well yes.’ I went and I had a chat with them. And at the first meeting it got to one point where I was trapped in the turret and I said, ‘That’s the end of my flying comments. That’s the end of my little chat to you tonight.’ And they were so impressed they asked me to go back and tell the rest of it. And I’ve got them both recorded there.
AM: Oh right. I’ll listen to them but tell me a little bit about it now then.
FM: In what way?
AM: Just, well you just said you got trapped in the turret. How come? How did you get, how were you trapped in the turret?
FM: Well, when, after we’d bombed the target, it was a place called Neuss. Next door to Dusseldorf in the Ruhr. A lot of our bombing went down, our crews there. And went through the target area as normal and took a wide turn to be out of the way of other aircraft approaching the target and I thought there was something very funny. There was no nothing. No ack ack. Nothing going on like that. Something queer going on here. And all of a sudden, a bang. It was all ablaze with bullets and things strafing all through. Some right through my turret. And the pilot screaming, ‘Here fellas —get out out out. And that was when we were supposed to get out. The escape hatch is in the very nose of the aircraft and in the tail of the aircraft. The turrets turned around to a point where I can’t get access. I can’t get back into the aircraft and there’s no power. It won’t go so I’m trapped in the turret. Now, the pilot, I didn’t know until after the war, but he obviously thought he could crash land that aircraft in the reoccupied part of Holland. So, this is what I learned after the war but what went on then he must have been under some sort of control. He knew the wireless operator, he could see him, he hadn’t got out. He knew I hadn’t come through the aircraft and so presumably he was trying to give a chance to both of us. And he crashed in Holland and they were both killed. That photograph there shows you where they did crash. There were some trees over a hill. As they approached, the US army there did all they could do to help them but they were both killed there. And that’s where the memorial is. For me — well I tried very hard to get out. I couldn’t get out. I couldn’t get into the aircraft to do anything and I thought the only way now is to get out of the aircraft by the turret but I couldn’t get the turret doors open. It was all damaged. And I tried and tried and tried. I couldn’t do anything about it and I gave up and I thought I hope it doesn’t hurt too much. Then another — what you might call an un operational movement by the aircraft, that the pilot corrected. He was doing all this funny thing and he’s flying trying to keep the aircraft airborne. I thought well come on Frank. You know. Come on. Come on. And I, this time I managed to get my fingers between the two half doors of the Boulton Paul turret and I broke a nail off in the process which is very very painful. And I wriggled my hand through a bit more and a bit more and instead of opening that turret door just fell away. The half fell away. Now, pushed at the other one. No response. So I thought, I’ve got a space. Must be — I think it’s a foot wide. To get out of. So, I had my parachute. I always had mine between me the turret doors. You were supposed to leave it in the aircraft. On the shelf there. I didn’t do that. I don’t think anybody did. And I had this on my shins and when I got to that position I wriggled. Brought the parachute up, put it on the ring and fixed the vest here and I wriggled and wriggled and wriggled until I was halfway out of the aircraft and in the turret and then realised the parachute was too wide to go through the space available. So, I had to wriggle back a bit. Take one half, only one half so the parachute was reverse with my body and then I striddled out again. Hanging and hanging on with everything. Managed to get it engaged on the other hook and I rolled out of the turret and that’s how, that’s how I got out of the aircraft. And by this time, I weren’t far from the front where the U.S. 1st Army were in Holland where they were fighting the Germans there. When I landed I could hear the gunfire. I think probably about fifteen twenty miles away or something like that. When I landed I didn’t expect to land just when I did and I landed very heavily. Not as you would normally land when you’re doing the parachute training. These do. People do. And my left leg was behind me. I’d badly twisted my knee. So, I got a nasty cut on my head. An injury to my shoulder and my back and I just thought — now what am I going to do? Getting myself together fully I heard this noise and I thought there’s something coming. I listen again. And this noise again. It was a bit closer this time. I thought somebody’s approaching. So like all, we were all trained to try and get back if we came down. Shot down. You probably know all about that. I got wriggled up. Got out. Up onto my feet, moved away and I fell into water up to my waist. And then I was stuck in this cold water there and this thing that had made the noise appeared. Big head came over mine. A big tongue came out of the cow. Came licking my head. Anyway, after that I managed to get out of there. I sat against a tree. Squeezed as much water off as I could. And the next day, which was Sunday, I tried to get — I didn’t know what to do. I moved a little. Well, perhaps about a hundred yards or so to a lane and the people — perhaps they were going to church. I don’t know. And nobody bothered about me if they saw me. So I couldn’t get any further so I went back to where I’d been the night before and I stayed there. And that’s where I was when two boys who came in the woods looking for something — that’s where they found me. And then of course I was taken a prisoner then.
AM: Two, two young boys.
FM: Yeah. Yeah. Frightened them to death when they saw me. I must have been a pretty sight to see. And about a quarter of an hour afterwards there were twelve people came to take me in. Nine of them were women. Three were men. One of the men had a pitchfork over his shoulder. I don’t know what he thought he was going to do. Another had a big club over his shoulder. But the women were, they were very good. One of them put my right arm over her shoulder and another one my left arm over her shoulder. And they more or less half carried me to the local jail which was in the square and just below the square. The level of the square. The grill, the roof, the top wall, of the wall of that cell was just level with the square. The square. And they looked after me very well and I was there for some time before I was moved to a place, another place near Dusseldorf airfield and I was put in a cell there. But the one in, the original cell I still had my escape pack inside my tunic so when it was just nobody about. This little space between the wall of the cell and the floor I took it out and I pushed it down there. And it’s probably still there. Anyway, after I’d been moved to this other place at this airfield at Dusseldorf that was a different cell altogether. It was all bare walls and stone bed. Stone floor. Sloping bed. Stone pillow and a little bit of a stone thing in the end to stop you from sliding off. And I thought this is probably the place where they put the bad boys, you know. And these two German Luftwaffe people came in. Now, all aircrew when I was flying had a big white sweater they wore between their flying suit and their tunic. And I was using mine as a bit of a pillow. Well they told me to get up. I got up. And one of these two men, the smallest one, about my size he picked this pullover up and put it under his arm. He was having that. And I thought well you’re not you know. So, I reached out and snatched it back. And he gave me such a good hiding.
AM: Really.
FM: Punched me all over the place. I couldn’t do a thing about it. Anyway, after a while the other one stopped him eventually. After that I was taken through Dusseldorf on the train. They took us to Frankfurt where we were questioned. On the way, it was daytime, on the way through Dusseldorf the air raid sirens went. Just the same as they’d got over here. Just the same sound. And all of a sudden they all scattered and all left for the shelters, and the two guard’s with pistol holders here they took me into the shelter with the others. Well they could see my brevet. My flight sergeant stripes and everything. And one of those soldiers, guards, he put his finger to his lips and he went like that and he said, ‘They don’t like you very much.’ In other words, don’t say anything. You know. Be as obscure as you can be because if they know who you are and what you are they might do something about it. And from then we went to Frankfurt and that’s where I met John Maling. Our navigator. From there we were taken to Bankau. Luft VII. On the way there went a long way on a train. I think to the Polish border and there we went in a truck. A big open truck and there were four armed guards to that truck as well. Apart from the driver. And two of the guards sat in the driver’s compartment with the driver. And two more sat on a bench with their back to the driver. And on the way there that driver did some — I don’t know, for some reason he did a very violent manoeuvre which threw someone off the truck. And well I don’t know if broken bones or whatever. It was the old the bumps and bruises. You went at speed. And when we got ourselves together one of the guards came, that guard came out with us as well and it was funny to see one of the POWs help the German guard up to his feet and then pick his rifle up and give him his rifle back. That’s what happened there. And then from there we went in to Bankau. Luft VII. That’s where it all started. That was when — the Long March from there, after we were there, what — till February I think.
AM: How long? When were you shot down Frank?
FM: September. September 1944.
AM: ’44. Right so you were there how many months? About?
FM: Well about –
AM: About four.
FM: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Four months.
FM: Yeah.
AM: So, then, you’ve given me details here of your —
FM: Yes
AM: Forced trek.
FM: Yes. Yes.
AM: I’m going to give it you back and then you can just tell me a little about it from that. What it was actually like being on the Long March.
FM: Terrible. I had a [pause] I had great difficulty in walking because of my knee. When I was first taken into that first prison they brought a doctor to me and he was muttering and saying things to the guard and he, the guard got hold of me. He said, he got hold of me, me put his arms around me and that doctor took hold my leg and gave it a wrench and pull. I had dislocated my knee and that’s what he was doing. He was resetting my knee but it was very sore. It’s always been a problem since then. And I was having trouble walking, anyhow. I wasn’t fit to walk like that. And John Maling helped me along quite a lot. Like other people there were lots of lads falling down on the way and helping one another up and things. Some didn’t get up and there was nothing you could do about it. On part of that way I know a load of army lads joined us. Their guards had deserted them and they’d nowhere else to go. They didn’t know what to do and they came and joined us and they all ended up with us and eventually we ended up at this place and put in these cattle trucks. A long line of cattle trucks. Not the open type. The doors on the side. And there’d be fifty to sixty men in this truck put in there. Now, you couldn’t sit down. There was no room to sit. You just had to lean on one another. Dear. Our truck anyway. We weren’t allowed out for anything. We were in that truck for three days.
AM: And you weren’t allowed out for anything at all.
FM: No. No. And we were in a right mess as you can imagine. And eventually it did. That train kept moving one way and stopping and going and different things going on. And they apologised afterwards. The Germans. They said that they’d been waiting for an engine. Well, what I think they’d been doing keep taking the engine off our train. Using it for more important things as far as they were concerned. But eventually we did end at Luckenwalde —IIIa. That was a big camp. And in that camp, inside the main enclosure there were separate enclosures where they kept the different nationalities. I mean the USA had their own. The French had theirs. The Polish. The Dutch. They all had their own. We had. And when the big battle came on with the Germans and the Russians well the Russians pushed the Germans. We were in the middle of the battle there. And when the Russians pushed the Germans back westwards and pushed on and on and on they — in charge there. We were prisoners of the Russians. What they did they sent a tank into the camp and ran down some of these enclosures so that we could all mix freely then. Which we did, like. Nothing else to do. And we didn’t know what was going on and there was nothing going on but big space westward. Nothing there. All the armies had vanished. There was absolutely nothing. But we knew that the Americans were at Magdeburg. On the River Elbe. A few miles away. And after some time John Maling said to me, ‘Not much going on here, Frank,’ he said, ‘I’ve had enough of this. ’ He said, ‘What do you think about having a go and getting out of here?’ So that’s what we did. With lots of difficulty we got to Magdeburg, to the Americans and after that everyone looked after us as though we were royalty.
AM: So you just went. You just walked out.
FM: Oh no. No. No. I had to get out under the fence.
AM: Oh right.
FM: One of the big, one of the posts that was a part of the fencing of one of the enclosures. We used that at night. When it was dead of night, pushed it under the fence and levered it. Pulled and pulled and levered until we had a little gap. So we squirmed underneath that, each of us and then we got to this, we walked all the rest of that night and all the rest of the day in the wooded area. Or on the edge of the woods. Couldn’t see anything. We wondered what to do now? We knew that every now and again that the Americans sent patrols in this wide area from Magdeburg. From, you know, they had a base at Magdeburg. And all of a sudden we saw this cloud of dust. That’s what it was. And John Maling ran out waving and shouting. Well, they wouldn’t hear him of course, but they saw him. They came racing over and when they knew what we were well — they treated us like royalty there.
AM: Yeah.
FM: Just imagine what they were like with us. Everybody did after that. We moved from there. We were eventually taken to another place where a DC3 had been diverted to pick us up. That took us to Brussels. From Brussels we were taken to by train to France. Lille in France. And from Lille in France we were taken by another transport to an airfield and this big Lancasters there waiting for us and we flew over the Lancaster. So, I think I’m the only air gunner in the RAF who flew out in his last operation in the rear turret of a Boulton Paul Halifax bomber and came back in the Fraser Nash turret of a Lancaster.
AM: Of a Lancaster.
FM: I think so. I bet there’s not another one.
AM: What was it like when you, when you did get back? Because you, had you been deloused at that, by that time or were you still –?
FM: Oh. The Americans. They deloused us alright.
AM: Did they?
FM: They washed us, hosed us and everything. Squirted powder all over us and one thing and another and put the bits that were there, their clothing on us to cover us and then gave us a great big meal. It was a smasher. A great big plate full of —
AM: Could you eat it though?
FM: Oh well. Chicken. Everything you could think of. Vegetables. And peaches and cream all on the one plate. We ate it alright, yeah. And then we were both violently ill for a couple of days. And they were a bit worried about us but eventually we were alright.
AM: Yeah. Because if you’d not eaten properly for six months or whatever.
FM: No. No.
AM: You’re not going to be able to eat that are you?
FM: No. No.
AM: So, What happened when you got back?
FM: Well we were taken to [pause] name’s on there somewhere.
AM: Oh, I’ve given it to you back haven’t I?
[pause]
FM: I can’t remember the place.
JM: Cosford.
FM: Not Cosford? Not. No.
AM: It don’t matter because I’m just wondering because you’ve got back. So they’ve flown you back.
FM: Yeah. Then they debriefed us.
AM: Ok.
FM: And deloused us and more or less did some of what the Americans had done with us when they got hold of us. Then they sent us to London for the night.
AM: Right.
FM: Both in a hotel in London for the night. And after that we were sent to Cosford the next day. And that’s when we were re-kitted and everything and given a nice bit of back pay and sent home on leave.
AM: And what? How long after that were you demobbed?
FM: Well I wasn’t demobbed just like that. I was, at that time, there was some funny things going on. The Russians were misbehaving. Well they thought they were misbehaving. The allies did. And the, a lot of the Bomber Command boys had left. They were all volunteers and they left. But then they were appealing for them to go back on a, on a short engagement. Three years. And they had too, they had the aircraft, but they hadn’t got the people to fly them then. And they were flying food and all sorts of things over to Holland and Germany but they hadn’t got the people to do it. And that’s why they wanted the boys to go back and do. And with the Russians doing what they were doing what they were getting. They were getting very worried about the Russians. And I didn’t leave the RAF. I stayed in the RAF. And then I applied again and I wanted to be trained as a pilot which is what I was going to be. So, I went. Stayed in re-engagement but after a while I was — this complaint took over me and I had major surgery in the RAF. Then discharged as unfit for flying duties.
AM: Because of your knee.
FM: No. No. This Raynaud’s disease.
AM: Oh. Your other bits.
FM: Yeah.
AM: Right.
FM: So —
AM: Right. Tell me a little more about the memorial. You’ve shown me the picture. And the who — who organised the memorial where you’re plane had —
FM: It was a Dutch chap. I can’t think. Just —
AM: Just where —
FM: A letter.
AM: Where it had crash landed.
FM: Yes. Yes. That’s right. He’d been researching different things and what they wanted to do with this place in Holland they wanted to put a memorial there. Related to what had gone on in the war. And there had been another aircraft crashed there earlier in the war. A twin-engined aircraft. And the names of those two are on that memorial plaque. But they got my name, they got our name from somewhere. I don’t know how they got it. I got a letter through Canada actually. And this chap had got his information from Canada so it was perhaps the relatives of Chorley or something like that. I don’t know. But they invited me over to unveil the memorial. Well I got in touch with John Maling, our bomb aimer. He was living in Essex then. And Jean and I and John Maling and his wife Beryl all went over there and give those photographs to show what we did there.
AM: Yeah. What happened to the — he was the bomb aimer wasn’t he? John Maling.
FM: Yes.
AM: He was the one you ended up meeting in the prison.
FM: Yes. That’s right.
AM: In the prison camp and everything.
FM: Yeah.
AM: And I think you said the pilot was killed when he crash landed it.
FM: That’s right. Yes. And the wireless operator.
AM: And the wireless operator. So that’s four of you. What happened to the other?
FM: Well they got out.
AM: Did they?
FM: Yes.
AM: They got out.
FM: I didn’t, I didn’t meet any of them again. That was the Gordon Chorley, that was the navigator. The flight engineer. The mid-upper gunner. I didn’t meet any of those again.
AM: No.
FM: They were all POWs though.
AM: You’ve shown me the picture of the German pilot of the plane that shot you down.
FM: That’s — that’s what they said. Yeah.
AM: And would you have been happy to meet him?
FM: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
AM: Yeah. What would you talk to him about?
FM: Well I don’t know. It would have been nice to chat to him about his job and my job and one thing and another. You know.
AM: Yeah.
FM: Compare things and it would have just have been nice. They asked me if I’d like, if I’d like to meet him and I said, ‘Yes I would. ’ But I didn’t meet him.
AM: No. That’s a shame. And what did, what did you after then. In later life. Back to electrical engineering.
FM: Yes. I became a maintenance electrician at one of the mills around here and that’s what I ended up doing.
AM: Yeah.
FM: Until I retired.
AM: Brill. What more can I say? I’m going to switch off now.
FM: And I used to think, I could see all this, it wasn’t always the case, but you see these big blazes going on below there and more bombs being thrown down there and I used to think — God. What about all the women and kids? And I still do that. And I still do at nights.
AM: Really.
FM: I have prostrate cancer. I have to get up quite a bit in the night and I don’t get a lot of sleep. I lie awake quite a lot and I think about it. Yes. I think about it a lot.
AM: So still.
FM: Oh yes. Yeah. That won’t go away. I mean they told us when I have mentioned to somebody — well very sad, but it was necessary.
GR: Yeah.
FM: If we hadn’t have done what we did millions more would probably have been killed.
AM: Yeah.
FM: So, I can’t argue about that but it still doesn’t make it better, does it? It’s very sad.
AM: And that’s pretty much what everybody says, isn’t it?
GR: I don’t know if you’ve watched it but they’ve been doing a programme this week —
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Frank Mannion
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Annie Moody
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-10
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Sound
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AMannionF150910
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:36:21 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Mannion was born in Manchester. When he completed his electrical engineering apprenticeship at Metropolitan Vickers he volunteered for the RAF. Initially he was ready to train as a pilot but was told there was a shortage of air gunners so he volunteered for that role instead. After training Frank and his crew were posted to 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne. He was shot down on his thirty seventh operation. Frank managed to finally free himself from his badly damaged turret and he baled out. He severely damaged his leg and he was found and taken prisoner. While he was being taken to prison there was an air raid and he had to share a shelter with the local population. He was sent to Stalag Luft VII at Bankau and then four months later was forced on the Long March. He and his navigator escaped from Luckenwalde and the Russians and were picked up by the Americans before he was repatriated home.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Luckenwalde
Poland--Tychowo
Temporal Coverage
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1944-09
10 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
Dulag Luft
Halifax
Lancaster
memorial
prisoner of war
RAF Melbourne
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/609/8878/PMcNamaraL1502.2.jpg
1a52a0cc7a6a6bd8198d87fbb16b0d28
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/609/8878/AMcNamara150722.1.mp3
d96debe0280ffed1ce08c4e80939bcf2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McNamara, Len
L McNamara
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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McNamara, L
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Len McNamara (1924 - 2020, 1814123, 185344 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 10 and 75 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-07-22
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Ok,so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Len McNamara. And the interview is taking place at Len McNamara's home, in Southport, on the twenty second of July two thousand and fifteen. So Len, if you would just tell me a little bit about your childhood, background, and then how you came to join the RAF.
LM: I was born in Bristol in nineteen twenty four. My father was a chef, or cook as they called them in those days, and he worked at Fishponds, Bristol Mental Hospital, which is at Fishponds, on a very huge estate there, and my mother was a mental nurse. I was the eldest of three boys, I had a normal Elementary School education, went to night school, and when I was, left school at fourteen I was an apprentice plumber. Joined, as most lads I was associated with, joined the Air Training Corps, which had a very strong following in Bristol, and after going through, suffering, seeing the bombing of my home town, Bristol, I decided, if I could, I would like to join the Air Force, and be a member of the bomber squadrons. In December nineteen forty three I volunteered for air crew, and I went down to Euston House in London on a three day selection board, and was selected for air crew, and was told I would be called up later. Um, in March nineteen forty three, on the twenty first, the day I was exactly eighteen and a half years old, I reported to Lords Cricket Ground ACR-
AM: (interrupting) Nineteen forty four.
LM: Nineteen forty three.
AM: Forty three or forty four?
LM: Forty three.
AM: Ok.
LM: Um, after spending about three weeks in London, Earls Court Road, being kitted out and doing elementary field programmes, I went up to Bridlington to Air Gunners ITW. The course up there lasted approximately six weeks, and from there I went down to (pause) um, Elementary Gunnery School which was at Bridgenorth. Actually, did nothing at all there, cos they were just setting it all up and it was just hangers. From there I went to number one ATS at Pembrey, in Wales, did my gunnery course, and we were flying on, doing the gunnery on Blenheims, with Lysanders towing the drogues.
AM: So you, you were shooting at drogues.
LM: Yes, shooting at drogues. I passed out and was presented with merit honours in August of forty three, and from there I went to 10 OTU at Abingdon. At Abingdon it was crewed up, the skipper being Pete Catterswife, who was a Canyan, navigator was a-, from Taunton, and the wireless operator air gunner was an Australian, Bob Wright, and I can't think of anybody else who was crew at that time.
AM: How did you get together? Who approached who?
LM: We just all went into just a big room, and all I remember is being introduced to the crew. I don't know whether it was the navigator, or what, because (unclear), and he was West country, from Taunton. It could have been that. Anyhow, we crewed up there, that's right, navigator (pause), oh, and the bomb aimer, who was an ex Glasgow policeman, Bob McLuer. And I think we spent about two to three weeks at Abingdon, flying on Whitleys, and once the crew, skipper was solo on the Whitleys, we then went out to the satellite airfield at Stanton air, air, Stanton Harcourt. On completion of the OTU we then went up to Marston Moor, and did our conversion on to Halifax. Then they were flying Haliax ll's, which weren't all that clever, but nevertheless, the Halifax was a very well built aircraft, and more crew comfort than some of the others. On completion of the course at Marston Moor, we then went to Driffield on an escape and evasion course. I think it was about two weeks there, doing all sorts of things, getting over barbed wire, crawling through ditches, you name it, and we finished up with an escape and evasion exercise where we were dropped off in pairs on the North Yorkshire Moors, and then had to find our way back to Driffield. One, two of the Australians had a good experience, they got as far as (pause) oh, seaside town. Scarborough.
AM: Scarborough.
LM: And they found an army vehicle which was unattended, and drove back in that. I think the outcome was that it was some army Major's transport. Anyhow, they did that. And we, some of us got to Norton. We jumped on the train there, and when it got, not to Driffield station, to one of the minor stations before, we got out the wrong side and back in to Driffield without being stopped or caught. Um, after doing this escape and evasion, we were posted to the Shiny Ten Squadron in January nineteen forty four at Melbourne, just outside York. There were several crews went there, and we did two mine laying operations from Melbourne. On one of them the aircraft was shot up a bit by ack-ack, but the only comment was 'several holes in the aircraft, no member of crew hurt' (chuckles). From there, one five eight at Lissett were converting to the Halifax lll's, and also they'd lost one flight, C Flight, which went to Leconfield to form another squadron. So there were four of us, new crews of us at Shiny Ten who were then posted to Lissett. And we went there, and were on B Flight. Lissett was a very happy station. Everybody was very sociable, and a good atmosphere all round. While there I was having sinus problems, so I went up to the hospital at North Allerton, and had to go and have a minor sinus operation. As a result of that I was limited to flying below ten thousand feet. At that time I, with my own crew, had completed seven ops, and because of my sinus problems I was grounded from flying on operations, so they had a spare gunner in my place. On one of those trips to Tournai on (unclear) they got shot down. Three of the crew bailed out, the navigator and the flight engineer became prisoners of war. The rear gunner who had taken my place as a spare, he bailed out, but his chute failed to open, and he was found in a lady's, in France, in a lady's back garden, and his chute pack with him unopened. So it was quite a shock for the lady concerned. I have visited where the crew crashed, and also where everybody was found. I went with my son, er two of my sons and a grandson, and we found the local mayor was very cooperative, and showed us everything they could. The crew, the other ones who didn't survive, are buried in a small plot by the War Graves Commission in Meharicourt, and I have made a few visits there. There are quite a few members of 158 buried there, also the famous air gunner VC, Jan Mynarwski is buried there. From then I spent the rest of my time at Lissett as a spare gunner. Fortunately I was in the position of, I did fly with some crews for quite a period. One was Ted Strange. His air gunner, rear gunner had appendicitis, so I flew with them on their last seven ops, and they were a very fine crew, and I got on very well. I then was crewed up with Sam Weller, B Flight commander. Trips with him were few and far between, but I did, I then was crewed up with another Australian crew, and I did their last six ops with them. I did a couple of odd spare trips, and, but very quiet time really. I did fly with one crew, Canadian crew, which I wasn't happy with, and when I got back I said to the (unclear) that I didn't wish to fly with them any more because there was too much talking, and not enough attention paid to the job in hand. He assured me I wouldn't fly with them any more, and I didn't, and tragically, they did lose their lives on an operation not long after. In the October of, correction, in September of forty four I was then crewed up with a Canadian crew, and I flew with them for my last trips, my remaining trips of (unclear). I did, I think it was five or six with them, and then one day we came back form a daylight raid on Cologne, on thirtieth October, that was, and the Wing Commander, Wing Commander Dobson, came out to meet me, and said, 'congratulations, you've finished your tour now, and your commission is through'. The crew only had about three more ops to do to finish their tour, and I said, 'oh, I'll stay with you if you want', and the Wing Commander said, 'you've had enough, done enough. You've had nine months continuous operational flying, you've done your share, you're going to have a rest'.
AM: So that was that.
LM: From then I was posted to Langar, just outside Nottingham, as an instructor. Wasn't enjoying that very much , and a call went out for two second tour gunners, and Tony Dunster was an ex 4 Group gunner like myself, on Halifax's, we were posted, he volunteered, and we went down to Wolfarts Lodge to crew up, and we crewed up, the crew we crewed up with, the skipper was on his second tour, he was a New Zealander, and the rest of the crew, the wireless operator, the bomb aimer and the navigator, and flight engineer, had all been together on their first tour, flying Stirlings, as had the captain. And, I must admit, none of us were very enthusiastic about the Lancaster. Those of us on Halifax's said that the Lanc was a Woolworth's effort, and the Halifax was the Marks and Spencers, In all honesty, the Halifax was more favourable to the crews. It was easier to get around in, and easier to get out of in an emergency. Neither the Stirling boys, nor Tony and I liked the Lancasters at all. One incident we had with the Lancaster, was we were down at, way down in, er, Germany, I can't remember the target at the moment, this conversation, but it was way down, oh, Magdeberg, it was, and we were just doing the run in on the target, and we had an engine go up in flames. Nothing to do with any enemy action, it's just we had a glycol leak which caused a fire in the engine, and the engine couldn't be, it wouldn't feather, so we went all the way back to base with an engine, a prop just windmilling, and got back an hour after everybody else.
AM: Safely, though.
LM: Safely. One of the best jobs we ever did was the Manna Operations to Holland, dropping food. We loaded our crews ourselves, they had like a hammock in the bomb bay, and we loaded everything there, then we went over and dropped the food. And that was the most, the best thing we ever did.
AM: How many drops did you do on Operation Manna?
LM: Two.
AM: You did two.
LM: Yes
AM: How low were you flying?
LM: Oh, practically ground level. It was amazing because (pause)
AM: Could you actually see the people?
LM: Oh yes. As you were flying over there were people in their boats, and that, waving like mad to you, and some of them waving that enthusiastically they could tip over, but it was really fantastic to see it, and doing it.
AM: As a contrast to what you were doing before.
LM: Oh yes. Before, I mean before it was a question of destruction, but this question was saving lives. So, and (pause)
AM: Going back to the destruction, if you like, what, what, what did it actually feel like for you, there in the, as a, you were a rear gunner?
LM: Yeah, rear gunner. Well, actually it's amazing because being the rear gunner you never saw what you were going in to, you only saw it as you were coming out of it. And I was one of the gunners, there was loads of us, we never looked for trouble. Some, you had some people were gung-ho, drawing attention to themselves, but I was always taught, and others did, never draw attention to yourself. Just sit there quietly watching, and keeping your eyes open.
AM: Did you actually ever use the gun?
LM: Never.
AM: Never?
LM: No. I seen them, but you, just you sit there quietly, keeping an eye on what-
AM: But you could have done if you'd had to.
LM: Oh yeah.
AM: And what was it like in the suit, when you were all plugged in? Were you always warm, because it was really cold, wasn't it?
LM: Yes, but I really enjoyed it in the rear turret. You were in a world of your own there, you were your own companion. The only thing, it did get very cold, but then we had electric suits, and something we could never understand, ICW at Bridlington, you had to strip a Browning down, blindfolded. It's all laughable when you think of it, because in the turret it was minus forty, if you'd touched any metal you'd have frostbite, so why did we have to do all that?
AM: But you could, if you had to? With gloves on.
LM: Yes, if you had to. (laughs) But that was er-
AM: What, what do you think about the bombing now? You know, in retrospect.
LM: Well, it's more accurate, isn't it. I mean, you've got all the aids.
AM: No, sorry. I mean about when, when you were actually doing the bombing, dropping the bombs , what, what do you think about that now, in thinking about-
LM: I, I've still no regrets about it at all. Having lived and seen my own city destroyed, with no problems at all. And all I can say, it's like people are on about it all, what all the fuss and bother's about. There has been a book written since then, which I have. Written, I forget the name of the author, but he had, once the Communists had gone from Eastern Germany, and all the records came out, there was a lot going on there, all the equipment for submarines being manufactured there, it was a big staging post for the Eastern Front. There was loads of military there, and we were quite justified. I don't know what, all this outcry afterwards. It's easy to be wise after the event.
AM: And you got the DFC?
LM: Yeah, yeah.
AM: For the number of tours.
LM: Gary has got a letter that shows-
AM: Has he?
LM: Yeah. But there were, I mean, I had, I know I flew with numerous crews, but with the exception of the odd one or two, I was fortunate, I flew with very good, well experienced crews, and some of them had had an horrendous time. In fact, er, can we have just a (unclear).
AM: Yes, of course. (rustling noises)
LM: When Douggie Bancroft, Flying Officer Bancroft, who I did quite a few, they, they got badly shot up, and they landed at Hurn Airport, in, er, outside Bournemouth, and nobody ever understood how they managed to get the aircraft back there. In fact the instrument panel is in Canberra, in a museum in Australia, from that aircraft, and obviously the crew that survived, er two of the crew, they never found, never found their bodies. They reckon they must have fallen through the hole in the aircraft where it was badly burnt. And they all got immediate awards, DFMs and DFCs. They thoroughly deserved it. But they were a fantastic crew that I had the privilege to fly with for the remainder, the rest of their tour.
AM: Yes. So, I'm looking at all the different ones. So you had a Kenyan pilot, Canadian pilots, Australian pilots, New Zealand pilots, English pilot. You went through the lot.
LM: Yes, yes. I was lucky.
AM: Any difference? What were the differences of the nationalities? Other than the obvious ones about language.
LM: Yeah, there isn't no difference at all. They were all first class captains. Very happy crews, and, you can't explain the comradeship with your crew. You were closer than you were with your own brothers. I suppose the reason, you depended on each other for your lives. We had a good social life together, and that's it.
AM: Did you get down to Bridlington, from Lissett?
LM: Yeah, yeah. I've walked back from there many a time.
AM: You've walked? From Bridlington to Lissett?
LM: (laughs)
AM: How far's that?
LM: About eight miles. Eight, ten miles. Yep. Come back many a night in the crew bus, not on the seat, but on the floor (laughs).
AM: You enjoyed it, then?
LM: Oh yes. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
AM: And then, as, after that, you ended up with 75 squadron?
LM: Yeah.
AM: And then, I'm just looking at a sheet of paper here than Len has given me with all his pilots on. So, 75 New Zealand squadron, you were there 'til the end of the European war.
LM: Yes. Yes.
AM: So what was it like at the end, then? What was your last tour? Were they Operation Manna? Er, not tour, sorry, your last operation.
LM: I don't know.
AM: Because the Operation Manna ones would have been, May forty four?
LM: They were May time, weren't they. Because the war finished, I think it was in May. It was May, wasn't it?
AM: Yeah.
LM: I know because everything went mad on seven five squadron at Mepal, but (pause) that was fantastic, because when we come back off leave from seventy five New Zealand, all of us crew, we all used to come back, meet up in London, before coming back to Mepal, and have a night in London. But we used to go to Mepal village. Lovely, all the Kiwis getting to do their war dance in the bar. It was great.
AM: So what was it like at the end, then? What, how did it, for you, how did it end?
LM: It was just like a, really a bit of a let down. I thought we weren't treated very good. I know the New Zealanders were going to go out on, I forget what they call it, they were going to go out to India, and that. They went to Scampton, all the Kiwis, and all the English people, we were shipped up to Snaith, in Yorkshire, just to be selected to ground jobs, and I finished up at Ringway, on the parachute school, to initially, to be instructor. But I thought, 'no thank you'.
AM: No? You hadn't enjoyed it the first time round.
LM: So that was that.
AM: So what did you do.
LM: I can't, I'm trying to think, 'what did I do?' (Pause) Oh, yeah. I finished up, from there I went out to India, that's right, went out to Karachi, and we did nothing. Christmas, it was. Christmas of forty four, that's right. Arrived in Karachi, and there's four of us in a tent there, and we were just doing nothing. We used to go in to Kara-, it was Mauripur Airport. We used to go in to Karachi, and there was a club there, and that. We used to go in gharrys as they called them, the horse drawn taxi there, and we were told not to say anything as they went through some areas, let the driver sort I out, and that was that. But-
AM: How long were you there for? Was that forty four or forty five?
LM: That was forty four.
AM: Forty four. So that was before the Operation Manna, then?
LM: No, it was after everything.
AM: Oh, ok.
LM: Let's see. (pause) The war finished, I finished my tour and ops in October forty four, no, this was forty five, of course it was.
AM: So it was forty five.
LM: Forty five.
AM: I'm just trying to get my chronology right.
LM: No, forty five, it was. We went out to there, and then from there we went across to Ceylon, and then we went up to Kandy.
AM: What were you actually doing?
LM: Nothing!
AM: Oh, right.
LM: We were just shipped out the way. And we finished up at Kandy with a few more bomber, ex Bomber Command people, and then they decided to give us a three months Officers admin course. (chuckles) And then at the end of that we were shipped out to Singapore, we went on the Cape Town Castle, it was. Yeah. From Ceylon to Singapore, and I finished up on the embarkation unit there, working. But my sinus problems came out again, and I went in the hospital there. And the hospital was at Changi, which used to be, as I understand it, was a mental hospital, and of course all the Japanese were in (unclear) all around the beds, cleaning and that. And then I was sent home from there, repatriated.
AM: How did you get home?
LM: They flew me home.
AM: On what?
LM: A York. Flew me home, in stages, you know staging all the way through. Landed at Lyneham. Where did I go after that? Oh, then, (pause) that's right when I got back (pause), I missed that out, yeah, we went through Compton Bassett, and we did a code and cypher course, and we were all told when we went there, irrespective of what happens, you will pass the course, and we weren't, we were allowed to go to the Officer's Mess to collect our mail, and we had to pay the Officer's Mess bill, but all they did, they curtained part of the airman's dining hall off, and gave us that as a lounge with a field telephone to the Officer's Mess if you wanted any drinks. Obviously we never bothered, we always used to go into the local (unclear) and that. I'd forgotten about that, it'd all gone.
AM: I'm dragging it all back out.
LM: Yeah, I forgot all about that. 'Cos we, we went there before we went out to Ceylon, er, out to Karachi, and that.
AM: To go to Ceylon, and Karachi, and Singapore, to do nothing, just-. How many of you?
LM: Oh, there must have been hundreds of us. We were treated like dirt, at the end of the war, irrespective of your rank. We were just shipped out there out the road, out the way. The Navy got rid of all their surplus air crew. The RAF hung on to all of us.
AM: Why do you think they did?
LM: I don't know. I mean, I, because I'm a number, a (unclear) a number, I wasn't demobbed until forty seven. May forty seven.
AM: Could you have been, if you'd have wanted to go earlier?
LM: No. We weren't given the choice. We were all just shipped out, well we all thought personally we were just pushed out the way. They didn't know what to do with us.
AM: Was that RAF in general, or just Bomber Command?
LM: Well, I don't know, it was RAF, to do with RAF, not Bomber Command.
AM: They were still paying you?
LM: Oh yeah, yeah, but it was disgusting. That's right, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's right, I went-
AM: Seems a long way to go to do nothing.
LM: Well, it was, I mean, finished up at, in fact, the Officers Mess, embarkation Officer's Mess was out, Karikal House it was, and it was out by number ten dock gate, and in a beautiful big house and grounds. And a Japanese Admiral died there earlier, he's buried in the grounds of this big Karikal House, beautiful, and huge grounds. But, er, but, it's like the food we had there, it was all dehydrated stuff. And chicken, we used to see them coming in crates.
AM: And then they had to sort of wet it to cook it?
LM: Oh yeah. But, it was horrible.
AM: So what happened when you were eventually demobbed?
LM: I went, I was, we went up, I forget where it was, it was up Lancashire way somewhere, and just went up. A nights stop there. And just give the uniform in, and the suit, and that was it. It's a big laugh, because, because of the weather back here, there was a shortage of vegetables, and that, no potatoes, and all that jazz, but, I can't even remember the name of the camp where we were, when we were demobbed. Somewhere in the Lancashire area, I don't know where it was.
AM: What did you do afterwards, Len?
LM: I went back to finish my apprenticeship. I went back to finish my apprenticeship in plumbing. What happened, you went back and finished it, and you got full tradesman's rate, but the firm was compensated by the government for that. Got my indentures, and that was that. And then, I got fed up. I wished I hadn't of come out. The reason I come out was we were going to get married, and my wife wasn't keen on the service life, as she thought. So, I come out, and I thought, 'I'm fed up with this, I want to go back in'. So I went and they said, 'oh, you'll have to come back in as an airman, because your commission’s gone'. And I thought alright, I'll come back in the air traffic control branch.
AM: So this was after you'd finished your plumbing apprenticeship.
LM: Oh, yes. I was working as a tradesman.
AM: So you worked as a plumber?
LM: Yes, but I was getting fed up with it, and I was missing service life, and I wanted to get back into it. And the pity of it is, once I got back in, with the travel you did, and that, my wife thoroughly enjoyed it.
AM: Where did you meet your wife?
LM: Oh, I met, during the war we were at Bristol, we went out to Bath in the building business, working on bomb damage repairs, and we were doing work, just at the bottom of the road (unclear), and we were working on it, and that's how I come to meet her. She was fifteen and I was seventeen then.
AM: So that was before the RAF, even? You met her before you joined?
LM: Oh, yeah, oh yeah.
AM: And when did you get married? What year did you get married?
LM: Got married in forty seven, June forty seven. We were engaged, and that was that. Well, after I come out, I come out in May forty seven, and we got married in the June.
AM: When you went back in, then, so you did your plumbing, and then you went back in to the RAF, what did you do? What sort of things did you do?
LM: Air traffic control.
AM: You were in air traffic control.
LM: Yeah, air traffic control, straight on. And it was fantastic. Everybody was so kind to me. Don't matter what rank, station commanders, it was just what ribbons I had, and I was better treated then than we were at the end of the war, at Compton Bassett, and places like that. Because they were all wingless wonders there.
AM: So how long were you in air traffic control for? (pause) Ish.
LM: Oh, from fifty three to seventy one.
AM: Oh, right through.
LM: Yeah, I enjoyed it. Lovely. Yes, I trained on GC, ground control approach as a director, what they call a director, on that, and then became a local controller.
AM: Which airport were you based at?
LM: I was at, down at (pause) down at (pause), oh I can't think, it's where all the helicopters are down south, Chinooks and all that, I'll soon tell you.
AM: It's gone.
LM: Odiham! I was just going to pick the tankard up, because when I left there they presented me with a tankard. I was at Odiham, and, oh, that's right, because while we were at Odiham we had a mobile x-ray that come round, and they found Renee had TB. So she went into a sanatorium that way, and they transferred her to one outside Bath. Of course, we had young children, and mother, not, two of my sister in laws lived in Bath, one had the two girls, we had two girls then, and then there was two boys, and mother had the two boys in Bath. So I was then posted to, I'd been at Chivenor, that's right, I'd gone from Chivenor up to Colerne outside Bath, so that's it, they moved me to Colerne on compassionate grounds, because my children were in Bath, and they did that. And then from Colerne, when everything was, my wife was back and that, went up to Dishforth. Dishforth, Dishforth out to Germany, Wildenrath in Germany. So that was that. That's where I, and then I come home from Wildenrath in Germany, and, where did I go? Trying to think. (long pause). Oh God, no, I can't remember where I was when I came home.
AM: Oh well, it doesn't matter. What was it like being back in Germany?
LM: It was lovely. I was at Wildenrath, and the Dutch people we used to go on a roam on, and the German people were alright. In fact, on Wildenrath they had what they called GSO, German Service, and oh they were using what they had, huts and that, as married quarters. It was great. I enjoyed it. I can't think where I was. Oh, of course I was, I was down at Halton when I finished. Yeah, that's right, I went to Halton. I was the sole, all they had a Halton was a grass airfield, and Chipmonks for air experience for the cadets, you know, the apprentices, and I was the sole controller there. It was lovely. Had a fantastic time there.
AM: Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. That was really interesting.
LM: Sorry I couldn't remember names going through.
AM: Oh, don't you worry about that.
LM: But they're all down there, and Gary's got a copy of the recommendation for the DFC.
AM: Thanks, Len. I'll make sure we take a copy of that, then.
LM: Oh, I think I've got another spare copy.
AM: We'll find one. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Len McNamara
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-22
Format
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00:40:20 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcNamara150722
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Royal Canadian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Len McNamara was born in Bristol in 1924. An apprentice plumber, he joined the Air Training Corps and volunteered for aircrew. Discusses his initial training at various stations, the gunnery course he passed with merit and honours, an escape and evasion course he attended, and crewing up with Pete Catterswife, a Kenyan. He flew Whitleys and then then converting to Halifaxes. Len was posted to 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne. He discusses mine laying and bombing operations, aircraft damage, social and service life at RAF Lisset, military ethos and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After sinus problems, he was a reserve gunner going on operations with various aircrews. Len was posted to RAf Langar as an instructor, but volunteered as second tour gunners and was posted to RAF Woolfox Lodge to crew up with a New Zealand pilot on Lancasters. Discusses engine problems, Kenyan, Canadian Australian, New Zealand and English pilots, talks about Operation Manna and discusses 75 New Zealand Squadron. At the end of the war he finished up at RAF Ringway as parachute instructor.
Len was then posted to various locations abroad, did a code and cipher course and was demobilised. He went back to his plumbing apprenticeship, got married, settled in Bath but wanted to get back to service life. He started back as an airman and went into the air traffic control branch serving at different stations in Great Britain and Germany until he retired in 1971. Len was into post war meetings and memorial visits.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Germany
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Cheshire
England--Rutland
Sri Lanka
Singapore
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
10 Squadron
75 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
escaping
evading
final resting place
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Abingdon
RAF Langar
RAF Lissett
RAF Melbourne
RAF Ringway
RAF Woolfox Lodge
recruitment
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/648/8918/PTomlinR1503.2.jpg
5feeef4c71584185da2d1aebf6d7e5b7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/648/8918/ATomlinR150818.1.mp3
109034737a77a609cefe84b0dd75762f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tomlin, Ron
R Tomlin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tomlin, R
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Ron Tomlin (b. 1923) and three photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron. Collection catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, and the interviewer is Annie Moody, the interviewee is Ron Tomlin, and the interview is taking place at Mr Tomlin’s home in Streetly and it’s the 19th of August 2015. So, Ron, can we start with, can you just tell me a little bit about your family and where you were born, and your family background, what your parents did and school and stuff like that?
RT: Right, we was born in a place close to Shrewsbury, it’s called Ford, a little village, erm, I only lived there for a short while because my Father had come back from the First World War and he’d got himself a little van and he got a job with the post office, and then the post office got their own vans and er, so his little job dried up and we, and without his van he really didn’t have any trade apart from the fact he was a bit of a mechanic, he knew a bit about motor cars et cetera, and so they came back to Birmingham and they did their best. But, my Father had been gassed in the First World War and he couldn’t have a job inside because he was always spitting, and in those days people thought this was like a dirty habit, but modern information tells me, that spitting into the fire was the most hygienic way, they didn’t have paper hankies in, they couldn’t wash out, disinfect. We lived in a little back house, erm no garden, outside toilet that sort of thing and erm, this went on, my Mother tried to get her five children educated, my older brother went to grammar school, I went to grammar school but only on my second attempt because I didn’t pass high enough to get a grant for the books, and they couldn’t, my Father was unemployed, my Mother earned a living with washing and things like that, cleaning, and they, they couldn’t afford the extra grammar school fees, but because my older brother had gone, when he'd been there two years, I passed again, I could now go because I could have his books and his rugby shirt and things being passed down and so on, that went on until I was fourteen
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: When I ran away from home, I went to stay at my auntie’s house in, close to Shrewsbury, close to where I’d been born, on a farm, until my Mother bought me back, but I just didn’t want to go back to that grammar school, I didn’t want to learn French, I didn’t want to have a different life to all my friends, because nobody else I knew apart from my brother had gone to grammar school and in the end, erm and in the end that was accepted and I became apprenticed to a carpenter, and I say a carpenter, he was a big firm and he, he fitted out bars, Gaskell and Chambers, after a couple of years of that, I was fed up with that, and I wanted to get more money and the war had just started. I was sixteen, I was able to break the apprenticeship because I got a job doing war work at the BSA factory, and er, so I started working there and it wasn’t long afterwards, erm, one of the things that got me interested in the airforce was that the BSA had an ATC squadron, that’s the Air Defence Cadet Corp which became the ATC, and because this was the early days and because I was interested, I got a fair amount of promotion in that, and so when the BSA factory got bombed in nineteen forty one, I got fed up with clearing up after bombing and went with a couple of friends to join up. Now, we all wanted to be pilots
AM: Of course
RT: And they sent us away to Cardington for a three day test and I was accepted for pilot training, erm the other two, one was thrown out because he had flat feet
[loud aircraft noise]
AM: Because he had?
RT: Flat feet
AM: Flat feet
RT: Medical
AM: Yes
RT: And the other one, he was slightly older than us, he was accepted but into the RAF Regiment, so he didn’t come home with us, he was now in the airforce, he’d been thrown out and I’d been put on deferred service until I was old enough to start my pilot training, came back to Birmingham, I had to do evening institute work, navigation and things of that sort, until in nineteen forty two, late January, nineteen forty two, I was called up, I was now eighteen, erm eighteen and a little, and I went to Lords, the usual place for aircrew, I went to Scarborough, erm I had a problem with my feet, and when I’d finished my Scarborough breaking in, marching and all that, I was put into hospital to have toenails removed because they’d been bleeding, when that was finished and that took some time because I was eventually sent, it went wrong and I was sent back to Birmingham into Selly Oak hospital, I then went back to Carlisle, and I did my twelve hours pilot training
AM: Twelve hours? [emphasis]
RT: Yes, pilot training, at the end of twelve hours, the instructor said, ‘I’m not going to let you take off and land on your own, we haven’t got enough aircraft to let you crash,’ and so, I was placed into aircrew
AM: Right
RT: Sent away to the Isle of Man, and I eventually passed out with an observer brevvy, I’d done that, done navigation, bomb aiming, air gunnery and from the Isle of Man with my brevvy
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: I’d come back to Hastings in England, where I was being trained with advanced navigation, when the school got shot up by German planes, it was on the sea front and they shot out all the windows, and because we were now, some were needed to go, I got posted up to Lossiemouth and, to join a crew
AM: So, Hastings to Lossiemouth, how did you get from Hastings to Lossiemouth?
RT: By train
AM: Right
RT: By train with a warrant and a change of crew or whatever, and this and that or whatever, and from there, I joined up with five other people in what was known as Dibben’s crew, all the names are then, and for about three months we thought we were about to go out over Germany in a Wellington, we thought we were ready to go, we’d been doing a lot of flying particularly at night and we’d been, we’d had all sorts of mishaps, we’d had engine failure in Scotland, we’d had, we’d been shot by anti-aircraft guns over Oxford, we were ready to
AM: [laughs] Sorry to interrupt, what plane were you doing that training in then?
RT: It was in a Wellington
AM: You were in a Wellington, okay
RT: We were the Wellington crew ready to go, but then they said, you are going to be transferred to a Halifax
AM: Right, so at that time there were only five of you because you were a Wellington crew?
RT: There were only five of us, that’s right. So, we went back to Marston Moor in Yorkshire, under a CO who was Leonard Cheshire
AM: Right
RT: And we spent a few weeks learning to fly the Halifax
AM: Sort of, conversion training
RT: And we picked up an extra gunner called Agnew, and we picked up an engineer called Bob Hollinrake, but Bob Hollinrake is waiting for his cremation next Tuesday
AM: Yes, very sad
RT: That’s the last of the crew, yep, so erm, when we were then ready we were posted to 10 Squadron at Melbourne
AM: Right, okay
RT: And we got there in early July and we noticed, at the time I didn’t realise this was happening, but I know from records since, that most of my crew were being borrowed by other crews to go on missions. The pilot went twice, the navigator went twice, the engineer went twice, one of the gunners went once, and I was just sitting waiting for whatever
[loud aircraft noise]
AM: So, at that point, you hadn’t, had you done your first operation?
RT: No [inaudible]
AM: What was that like then, waiting while your mates were off doing operations?
RT: It’s one of the mysteries of life, because I and Louis Ure, the other man that didn’t go, have discussed this many times, we didn’t know, we were never waiting for them to come back, we were never asking them what it was like, we didn’t know, whether we would have been allowed to go if there was a raid on, we wouldn’t have been allowed off the station anyway, so we must have known, but for some reason it’s not in our minds now, so we don’t know
AM: Maybe, your just young and getting on with it
RT: That’s it, but then, late in July, probably the twenty second, twenty fourth of July, as a crew, we went to Hamburg
AM: The first one
RT: The first one
AM: So, what, what did, tell me about the day then, the bacon and eggs and then, did you have bacon and eggs?
RT: We, we always had a nice bacon and egg meal when we came back
AM: Right
RT: Yep, and we erm, I believe we had a good meal before we went, but the day of any operation is from lunchtime onwards, is being briefed, not only are you being briefed as a whole crew, each of your separate trades are being separately briefed about this, that and the other by the master bomber or the chief engineer or whatever, and then erm, in the early evening you are preparing for your trip, you are checked to see you are not carrying this, that and the other, you’re having your meal and eventually it’s time for you to be taken in your little van with the nice WAAF driver, and to your dispersal point, and there’s twenty aircraft almost surely being taking off and it takes a bit of time to get, it isn’t like, you see, twenty fighters taking off in the Battle of Britain, erm, all in dispersal places, they all have to assemble, they all have to fly off and gather on the coast before you set off in your wave
AM: And there’s a lot more men than there were in the fighters in the Battle of Britain, there’s seven of you in each plane
RT: That’s right, yep, and so erm, and then of course you don’t see much apart from the back end of other aeroplanes or something going wrong, because it’s all dark you know, nobody’s got lights on and the radio silence, but so, but when you go to a place like Hamburg which is already burning, you see it from a long way away, and our second big, [unclear] no serious incidents on our first trip to, our second trip was also to Hamburg, two or three nights later and we had a problem, we found that our oxygen system had failed, particularly there was none to the rear gunner who was singing as if he was drunk, and we made contact with our base and were ordered to get down low because of the oxygen, returned to base
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Eject your bombs in the sea
AM: Why was he singing because he was drunk, from lack of oxygen?
RT: From lack of oxygen, yeah, and it wasn’t clear whether the whole oxygen system was failing or just his part, but without a rear gunner protecting us we were too vulnerable anyway and they wanted us to come back, so they bought us back, erm, that was in my memory as being one of the raids, not knowing what time or where it was, but the man who made the film, looked up all the records and assures me that it was on the second Hamburg one we went on, and we were not too far over the sea when it happened according to him, in something like an hour and three quarters we were back home, whereas we would have been six or seven hours across the sea to get back down
AM: What happened, what did you do with the bomb load when you were coming back?
RT: We dropped it in the sea, we ejected it, and we had trouble with that too, we reached the stage where we even considered chopping out the, the last of the bomb bay racks for which we had a chopper, we’d been briefed on that if you had to get rid of them, but it actual fact a lot of shaking about, eventually they all went but not all in one place, but seeing as you was over the sea it wasn’t too bad. Two or three nights later we went back out to Hamburg again, this time no problem, that was a good mission, and so two out of three Hamburg runs were okay, and then this squadron was stood down, they had been on a lot of operations in July and early August and we were given a three day pass, I think they shut the whole squadron down in order to try and bring the planes back up to
AM: Scratch
RT: Because, I mean, on our first two missions that we did see planes sink, we did see planes going down, and these, we did encounter searchlights but the drill was always the same, you know, left, left, [unclear] and whatever, we reckoned we did have a good pilot and no serious mishap. So, having had our three day’s we went back
AM: Where did you go on your three days?
RT: We didn’t
AM: Oh, you just stayed there
RT: We stayed there, we stayed there, we, Louis and I have discovered that whilst we stayed there, the
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: we, the skipper was entertained at the navigator’s house in Staffordshire, and we always ribbed them about this, ‘why did you take him and not us,’ and we always used to take the mickey and that sort of thing, but erm anyway, this has all come out later on
AM: Yes
RT: In those days, none of those things would have probably, so we, we then, soon after we got back off our three day break, we were sent to Mannheim, which is a long trip, not across the sea, down England, right across Paris, right across Germany to Mannheim, seven hours sort of trip, and on our way back one engine overheated and we were forced to shut it down, so when we got back to base, we assumed that we could happily go to bed and we wouldn’t go the next night, the same night we just got back, but around lunch time they woke us up, and said, your aircraft is now suitable and we are raiding Nuremberg tonight, right, and you are required to go, so two or three of the crew, Bob Hollinrake, I think, and the skipper and the engineer, took the plane up and came back and said, its ok, and so we got briefed, and that evening at about quarter past nine, we set off again, right down England, right across Paris, right across, a bit further this time, this was an eight hour, before we got to the target, the same engine packed up again, and so we dropped a little behind the bomber stream because, I think we were in, it was in five waves from memory, and we were in two, so the fact that we were going slower than the rest meant that we were still with them like, just at the end, but we were probably [unclear] it wasn’t too long after that when we’d lost a bit of height because we’d had to come down a little bit past three because a fighter had frightened us, and partly because we were gaining a bit of speed et cetera by coming down. We lost another engine
AM: Same side or?
RT: No, no, one on each side
AM: Oh, okay
RT: And, okay, you can still fly, you can still fly a Halifax on two engines, but we decided we would go back to engine number one that had failed and see if we could get it going again, because it had overheated again, we got it going again, not too long we had the same problem again, and they dabbled with trying to make it three out of four but we never really had more than two. We gradually lost height and when we came back over Paris, we were all on our own of course, we’d now lost the, the other, the shelter of the others
AM: No, you weren’t in the stream anymore
RT: And, technically we were a bit too low, we were around nine and a half thousand feet, that is well in the range of guns, but not hit, and we got out over Dieppe
AM: Yeah
RT: Heading for Beachy Head, which was our right route home because the mines had been swept in order to make a ditching area, but we got hit by something [emphasis] in the wing, we believe it was a German warship, and I’ll tell you why later, but we, the plane couldn’t fly straight and whatever had happened to the wing, and the pilot decided that the only, and we’re still in cloud
AM: Was it still dark at this point?
RT: Oh yeah, it was four o’clock in the morning
AM: Oh right, sorry
RT: And it, yeah, and we’d been going since quarter past nine, it would have been a night out if we’d got back to Yorkshire. It was actually quarter past four when we actually hit the sea, but erm because of his problems with the controls and his decision is he’s not going to make the English coast, he’s got to get himself a good ditching chance, you’ve got to have enough control, to control it when it hits the water, though he did his best, as I say, we believed we had a very good pilot, he did his best, and we got six out I was, stayed with the pilot because I used to fly the second [unclear] and about six hundred feet we came out the cloud, and I said, cheerio to him, and took up my position which is lying on the floor with my feet on the bulkheads, and one of my jobs was to just jettison the two escape hatches, which I did, went down to join the others down there, and it was fairly soon after that, although I think he probably only had one engine going when he hit the sea, he wanted to make sure he got absolutely control over what it, it had to be good, not anything that could suddenly alter, and because we had the perspex nose and the sea was rough, and it was in rain, the nose broke when it hit a wave, in theory, he tried to put the tail in first and fall into the sea, that’s the theory of it, but the nose went so we were suddenly flooded because it, and of course it isn’t just sea water we’ve got, its fuel
AM: Fuel, yeah [coughs]
RT: And the dye that it, the yellow dye the Fluorescein, that they, so we were
AM: Hang on, the yellow dye of?
RT: It’s called Fluorescein, and when the plane hits the water it releases a yellow dye so you can see over
AM: Right, okay
RT: It distinguishes where the plane went in, I mean for some weeks after in Germany we were all yellow, but so, we then get up as quickly as we can, my job was to be first out as bomb aimer, other people have got other duties to do, Louis is supposed to be sending his message and to, I mean now he’s in his ditching position, he’s done all that, the navigator’s supposed to be bringing the charts with him and
AM: Packing his bag
RT: I think he had a big bag which was supposed to be locked on his arms, he claims he got a bang on the head and he didn’t get all his stuff, not able in time, but anyway, I’m at the dinghy, the plane is flat on the sea, I was able to get into the, onto the wing, took the dinghy over because it was inflating the wrong way up, push it into the sea, get into it, and then the others are coming one at a time, the pilot of course is still in his own bit, he’s got to find his way to us, but the dinghy isn’t inflating as it should
AM: I was going to ask you, so the dinghy, who lets the dinghy go or does it do that automatically?
RT: I never thought about it
AM: And its auto, should automatically inflate
RT: It is definitely inflating
AM: Okay
RT: When I first saw it upside down and then I turned it over it was inflating, its only when we got inside and the others started to pile in, and seven of you in one of those dinghies is a bit of a squeeze
AM: You still got your flying boots and everything on at this point?
RT: I’m sorry
AM: You still got your flying boots on at this time? [inaudible]
RT: Oh yeah, all in that, and it’s starting to, it’s trying to float below the surface and it’s starting to fold up like a
AM: Yeah
RT: Air is escaping, it’s only then that we realise that its full of holes, shrapnel, a small piece of shrapnel had gone through when we were hit on the wing, it’s gone through the folded up dinghy, now part of our drill is to find all the items we drop attached to the dinghy by cords, one of which is a knife, one of which is a pair of bellows, one is some food, one is a Very gun, there’s a whole set of things, the first thing we want is the knife, because of our position folded up in the water, not sitting on the water and because we’ve got holes, not only in the air bit, but also in the bottom, the pilot says, we must find the knife otherwise we are going down with the plane, we were attached to the plane, it’s a strong cord, ‘stand up one at a time, because there’s holes in the bottom, take your flying boots off, I don’t want anybody’, and I’m the first one standing up, my job really was to be first in everything. I stand up, first thing is my flying boots are over the side, nobody’s ever admitted to it but if you look in my little museum upstairs, you’ll see most of the crew in later years have sent me cards of flying boots
AM/RT: [laughter]
RT: Because eventually of course I arrive in Germany in bare feet, and I’ve had bare feet for a fair little bit of this nonsense. So, we can’t find the knife, the new air gunner a man we’d never quite got to know as well as the five man crew, Sandy Agnew, he produces a sheath knife from down his flying boot, a thing which we’d always been told, ‘don’t arrive in Germany armed even with a knife, because if you’re armed they could kill you,’ whereas in the Geneva convention they’re not supposed to, he cuts us free. Very shortly after that we see the aircraft slide away, that’s right, so now we start to find these cords and find these things, we find the bellows, we find the bag full of corks, they’re like old fashioned spinning tops, little wooden things with threads on them, different sizes, with different size holes
AM: So, they’re for plugging all the holes?
RT: So, we start plugging the holes, we haven’t got enough for all the things, so people by holes have got fingers in, and things like that, but we’ve got the bellows and we start pumping, we kept that thing going for seventeen hours until we were rescued off the French coast. By then we’d found a little bit of Horlicks tablets, we found a Very cartridge gun, and we were you know, we were sailors now, we were but we couldn’t guide the dinghy
AM: So, you drifted back to the French coast then?
RT: Yeah. We got paddles but it’s a round thing and there’s no way two people can paddle a round thing and it, you know, eventually we’re off the French coast, we know we’re off the French coast at nine o’clock in the evening, it’s like twenty four hours since we left home, and there’s a ridiculous [emphasis] debate going on, can we, can we paddle all the way round to Spain? Shall we risk trying to go up towards all the twenty one miles, or if we get into the North Sea we’ll get lost, you know, et cetera, et cetera. When we see a Spitfire coming, two Spitfires actually, coming back over the coast, we fire our Very cartridge and the one Spitfire comes down, puts his canopy back, starts to wave to us and we’re now getting quite excited, it’s only a matter of minutes until they drop a flying, er flying lifeboat to us or whatever, or a flying boat will come and pick us up
AM: Yeah
RT: But, we were so close to the French coast, we didn’t realise how close we were, because the waves were high enough to hide it from us down there, but the Germans had seen the Very cartridge, and so they start to flash Aldis lamps, ‘identify, identify, identify’
AM: They’re actually [coughs] on the coast or were they [inaudible]?
RT: No on the coast
AM: Oh, okay
RT: And, eventually we flashed back because we also had a lamp, ‘RAF, RAF’ and they came out in a fishing boat with soldiers, armed soldiers, we all had to lie down, because of, we realised that there was a fair bit of risk with that sinking dinghy and we hadn’t got food or whatever, I think we were pleased to be picked up, to be saved as it were, you know
AM: At least you hadn’t drowned
RT: We weren’t drowned, yeah, and a boat came and they took us to a place called La Trémouille [?] which to me until recently is an unknown place in France, we’ve been back there a couple of times et cetera, I’ve had a holiday there. This last week or so, there’s a, a new series, series started on BBC and it’s all based on La Trémouille [?] [laughs] it’s a beautiful little town with all sorts of intrigue going on, you know, but anyway, we’re taken to Abbeville airfield and handed over to the Luftwaffe
AM: Are you still in your soaking wet clothes at this point?
RT: Oh, we are soaking wet, we were put in a little hut just to ourselves, in our wet clothes, we got a blanket each, still in our wet clothes, they locked us in and they gave us a saucepan full of hot potatoes in their jackets which were quite pleasant, and then the following day, a group of people who we believe to be two crews of German bombers, a party just bigger than us, we were seven they were probably nine, maybe ten. We were put on a train, still in our wet clothes and taken off to Germany, the journey took four days
AM: With the, with the German bomber crew
RT: Oh yes, they were in charge
AM: Is that right, okay, yeah
RT: One of those men loaned me his spare pair of boots, which I wore until I got to the first prison camp
AM: Did they fit you?
RT: Yes
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: We, when we arrived in Frankfurt, still with our dinghy, carrying our folded up dinghy, we were paraded on the station and the crowd came and spat at us, [unclear] bombers and all this sort of thing, which we thought was a bit unusual, we’ve found out since, that it was probably normal
AM: Did they try and get at you or were they just?
RT: No, nobody hurt any of us, no, et cetera, then they, the same nine people, they took us from the station to a tram car, one of these door tram cars, one behind the other, they shunted some people out, put us on and they took us to Gestapo headquarters, and outside Gestapo headquarters, the proper name is Dulag Luft
AM: Yeah
RT: Its well known as Dulag Luft now. The German had his boots back, they were his boots, they weren’t mine they were his, the, we didn’t need to explain, exchange, because I had no German, he had no English, he took me things and we went into there, and of course once we got in there, for about a week, we were then separated, we were in solitary confinement, interviewed most days by some German, sometimes we were put back in a cell with another airman
AM: But not your own crew?
RT: Not our own crew, sometimes we were put back with a member of our own crew, but we’d been briefed about all this, it was well known, we just don’t talk to one, if you don’t say anything, you know, but this went on for a week
AM: Did they do the nice guy, bad guy?
RT: Oh, all of that
AM: Cigarettes, all that stuff
RT: The officer with his gun in, gun out, until you’re proved to be, ‘I can shoot you,’ it’s all within, and ‘I don’t accept you’re a prisoner yet’, ‘you are not answering but I want you to’, ‘we are only allowed to give you rank name and number,’ ‘where you went to school’ and so, and so, ‘you attended Mary Street primary school,’ they got all the details, you know, so it, ‘that’s true, that’s a lie’, ‘I could shoot you for telling a lie’
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: [inaudible] but anyway, it went on for about a week and then we were all bought together again
AM: Were you scared, were you frightened, how did you feel about it?
RT: I think, I think I’m a young lad of nineteen, I must be, but the only time I can recall being really scared was while we were waiting to hit the water, you know, saying prayers and whatever, whatever comes into your mind, that’s a completely unknown situation you just don’t know what’s going to happen and, but I’m sure I’ve had a number of scares from Germans and things of that, but none of it is that I can recall in any detail, I’m sure, I’m not claiming to be brave or anything like that, so I think I must have been, but it’s not foremost in my mind. So, ooh, we are then in this Dulag Luft, which is, we were released by the Gestapo and we go into what it’s like, a little prison camp next door, there are English people in charge and they may be collaborators, they may be genuine people working on behalf of newly caught prisoners, I don’t know, but I still haven’t got my boots, and as I enter the compound somebody gives me a tin of condensed milk, and as soon as I got it opened, I scoffed it and I was violently sick, [laughs] but I can remember that in great detail
AM: It’s too rich for your stomach
RT: Well, I mean we hadn’t eaten for some time, you know, and on that train for four days, we’d had a little bit of German sausage and a little bit of bread, once a day, you know, the same as the Germans were having, that’s what they were having, they also [emphasis] didn’t have a bed for four days, you know, they were just in a wooden seated carriage, the same as we were, et cetera, so, okay, you’ve [unclear] then, you’re put on a train, bus carts and I’m taken to No 1 prison camp
AM: Were you still with your other six crew?
RT: Oh, we’re all together
AM: You’re all together
RT: We’re all together
AM: Yeah
RT: And we’re all together for some, that camp was organised into what we’ll call sixes, the food was shared out and you had to be in a combine of six, and so six of the crew were in the combine and one wasn’t, it was the little gunner, the man with the knife, he was in another combine with a Scotsman that he, because he was another Scotsman, so anyway, that was that. That was a nice prison camp, it was organised, it took all the people shot down since the start of the war, were all there, and they’d got a theatre and they’d got football teams with names like Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur, and I’m told that that one or two ex-professionals who’d become aircrew were playing in the teams, I didn’t know the people, and that was a nice enough place, and then somewhere along the line I acquired a pair of American army boots from the stores, the prison camp stores, but then a few months later we were, because it’s now getting very crowded, there were so many English and American prisoners coming in, its nineteen forty three, it’s all happening now and we were put on a train and we were taken to Lithuania. Four days again, same situation, we went to a reasonable camp, just started
AM: That was Lithuania, can you remember where it was?
RT: It was a place called Heydekrug
AM: Alright
RT: In Lithuania
AM: Yep
RT: Erm, we stayed there until, I think we went there in about November, remember I’d been shot down, its, its early September I’m in a prison camp
AM: Yeah
RT: So, I was not there too long in the good camp, then we go off to this very cold place in Lithuania, erm and nice place as I say, large place, four compounds, Americans in one, English there, English there and probably others in that one, and whilst we were there, five crew air gunner, Jock Finney, met his brother in law through the wire, he was in one of the other compounds, he knew he was there, and he persuaded the Germans to allow him to transfer to be with his brother in law and he took the little scotch lad with him, they all went together, and that was it, end, we never saw them again. They survived the war but not [unclear] we were involved in. Now, in about July or just after the invasion in June, we were overrun by the Russian front
AM: So, we are in nineteen forty-four?
RT: They were nowhere near us, but we’re in Lithuania and the Russian front is cutting off that whole section of Latvia and East Prussia, it’s all being, and so the Germans evacuated us by sea from the port of Memel and bought us back in to Swinemünde, a four day trip down in the hull
AM: All of you? How many?
RT: Eight hundred, down, we were on one boat, eight hundred, that was our compound. We know that on the day before, we only know now, on the day before in another boat, the American compound had also made the same route, and when we arrived back in Swinemünde, we were bombed by the American airforce, so we were lying on the truck, cattle trucks and there was a German pocket battle ship firing at them
AM: Would they have had any way of knowing who was on the boat, they just wouldn’t would they?
RT: No, no, no. So, eventually we were on a train, cattle trucks again, another four-day trip, this time back into Poland, at a place called [unclear] now, when we get it, this is known as the run off the road, this is the, which you all, one you must surely have heard about, when we get off the boat, where a lot of us have been manacled, we’re not manacled down in there because we couldn’t climb up the ladder
AM: So, hands rather than feet
RT: Yeah. But once we got off, some were pairs, some were fours, manacled together, and then, I call them the Hitler Youth, it was like a naval brigade of young soldiers with dogs and bayonets, start to chase us through the woods
AM: Yeah
RT: Wanting us to run, now we’re manacled together, and according to one lad, and we’ve each got a little haversack on our backs, which is an old shirt sewed up to make, to carry any bits and pieces that we’ve acquired in our nine months of captivity or whatever, and so, that runs down to your manacle and your stuck. I managed to get my hand out of my manacle because I was quite thin in those days and I’ve avoided any injury, and I’ve run on, I’ve left my other lad, whoever he was, I don’t know the name of who I was manacled to, I don’t think he was one of our group at all, not one of our crew certainly, and so eventually we arrived back in what we believed to be the prison camp, we now know it was a five kilometre run from when they attacked us, and we do know that the worst lad had sixty something bayonet wounds in his backside, prodded, not stabbed, prodded
AM: What where, what were the German guards doing, just letting them do it?
RT: No, they were the ones that were doing it
AM: Right, okay, so they were the guards who the young lads, were the ones, yeah
RT: They were the guards. The documents now say that they wanted us to escape and that on the edge of the woods was machine guns, that’s what the big books now record, we never saw any of that. We stuck together, not because we wanted to stick together, we were just following one another. Now, when we got to this camp, it wasn’t a camp, it was the outside of a camp, there was, we had to go in with a, what you get at a wedding, with a, soldiers, a guard of honour with the soldiers
AM: Oh, yeah, yeah
RT: Who bit you, prodded you, made sure that nobody had got anything, even a toothbrush, and then for some days, we were in this camp, with no huts, sleeping at night on the floor, and outside was a great pile of all our gear. Eventually that got shared out amongst us, toothbrushes, whatever, anything, and it took a few weeks before huts were made
AM: What month are we in now, is it, are we still in winter?
RT: No, this was July
AM: So, we’ve moved back through, yeah, with everything
RT: It was just after the invasion
AM: Of course, in forty-four, yeah
RT: So, the weather is much better, although there was a very nasty thunderstorm where one of, because before we got proper huts we had what we called dog kennels, they were like little sheds about five foot tall, four foot six tall, about ten people could lie on the floor, so at night we’d get into those. One night there was a terrible thunderstorm, two of the huts got struck by lightning, two or three prisoners got killed by the lightning, that must all be documented
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Over a few more weeks, the Russian prisoners, they were like slaves, and they built a proper prison camp and we went into our compound and the facilities there were quite reasonable, a massive toilet block, seventy-two seat toilet block, and so on, and which the sludge of the toilets had to be moved everyday by the Russians
[unknown]: [background talking]
AM: [inaudible] yeah
RT: With their oxen carts, they used to suck it up with a little explosion that caused it to
AM: Okay we’re paused, hang on
RT: Have we stopped?
[unknown]: [inaudible] I just said
[unknown voices]
[unknown] Just a little nibble, its ready but we’re having it indoors
AM: Right
[unknown]: Not bringing it out here
AM: Oh, we’ll come in, can we come in when we’re done?
[unknown]: Do you want to finish all that and then come in?
AM: Yeah, can we?
[unknown]: Yeah okay, fair enough
AM: Alright, right then
[Unknown] [laughter] I hope you are not going into too much detail Ronald?
AM: No, you’re not its wonderful
[unknown] I’m sat here listening and
[unknown] [inaudible] [laughter]
AM: So, cut you off in your prime, off you go again
RT: Anyway, we were in [unclear] which becomes a very reasonable sort of camp, the main occupation, was the guards trying to count us, every day. Every day we’d be forced out of our, I mean at night time, the huts are all on legs, dogs are underneath them, to avoid escaping. You do your own cooking on a little bit of a stove in there with your ration of potatoes or your twenty eighth of a loaf every day, a slice of bread
AM: And if they’re on legs you can’t dig tunnels?
RT: Not easily, you, et cetera, et cetera, and so on, and then in the daytime, they would force us out while they searched the huts and then they would do a count, somebody would manage to sneak through there and spoil the count for them
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: This went on all the time. Is he a bomber? Oh no, he’s just a passenger thing, yes. Have you got him recorded?
AM: Yeah, be alright, as long as it doesn’t drop anything on us
RT: It isn’t too long now, and we coming to the end of January, this is now nineteen forty five
AM: Forty five
RT: And the Russian front comes again, and this time the same routine, but instead of the ship or the train, we just set off walking and it goes on from the sixth of February until I get liberated on about the sixteenth of April
AM: Okay, how did you get liberated?
RT: The British army. By then we’d walked back to [unclear] which is a big, nowadays well-known place, it was so crowded that our column were told they had to go back again, and our column did leave and went back the way they come, most of my crew went with them, but Dibben, the pilot and I, went into sick bay, lay on the floor and said we were too sick to move, and we just stayed there, two days later we were liberated by the British army. We knew the army was getting close because we could see the searchlights in the sky
AM: Who was it that sent the others back?
RT: Oh
AM: Germans or?
RT: Germans
AM: The Germans, right
RT: And, the people in charge of the camp, because the camp was run by Sergeant Major Lord who was a big disciplinarian who had been captured at Arnhem
AM: Right
RT: And whilst I was in [unclear] a British soldier took me into the town to show me the little village, first day out of the prison camp, [unclear] and who should I meet? But Ken Pugsley, the lad with flat feet, who’d been captured at Arnhem as a prisoner and was in the same prison camp. I met him in Germany [emphasis] [laughs]
AM: Five years later
RT: Absolutely. But, on the march, I developed frostbite, I just couldn’t walk [inaudible]
AM: In your feet?
RT: Yeah, I couldn’t keep a, shouldn’t, whether it was those army boots from
AM: Americans
RT: Americans, which were never going, the right size or whatever, but anyway, and so the Germans [unclear] took me on a work cart and with a soldier, put me on a train, took me to a Belgium workers camp, dropped me off, and for seven or eight days, I was fed by a little Belgium school master
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Until he died last year, he corresponded [inaudible words] and a Serbo-Croat prisoner operated on my foot with his penknife which eventually, to release the pus, to allow the thing to get out. They put me on a dressing, on about the seventh, eighth day, we’re now into March, the German soldier arrives back, takes me on the train, puts me back with my crew on the march in a snowstorm with a cardboard box on my foot which lasted about
AM: About a day?
RT: No, not quite
AM: [inaudible]
RT: And so on, and so then, there we are back on the march again until we eventually
AM: It’s a strange mentality isn’t it, that they’d come, dropped you off, get you fixed up, bring you back
RT: Yep
AM: And get you to exactly where you’d been
RT: Now, when I recorded this in my film, I said, that the Germans with their efficiency, took me back to wherever the column had got to, but I now know from looking at my other documents, that for eight days the column stayed in th same place
AM: Oh
RT: Because all the roads ahead, were full up with other prisoners
AM: Right
RT: And, population escaping from the Russians, and so there was nowhere for us, so we are stuck
AM: Between a rock and a hard place
RT: Between the few farms. We had a prisoner on a bicycle, he was known as Percy Caruthers, he was allowed, and he spoke good German, he was a pilot, he was allowed to ride ahead contacting farmers to see if they would put up some prisoners overnight in their barns, provide food or hot water, and because no farm could take eight hundred, he would probably find about five farms in an area, and he would issue a document to say you helped British prisoners of war, and which would stand them in good stead with whoever liberated them, okay and so on, because we’re talking now about Poles and Germans, and all sorts of people because of the war and whatever, and that was the way it was, you know, so eventually I’m liberated
AM: So, you meet the British?
RT: Meet the British and within a few days I’d been fumigated, flown back home and then I was put for two years in Cosford Hospital because of, I was very [unclear] I had no nutrition and I was suffering from dysentery, you know, couldn’t hold food or whatever
AM: Two weeks, so you were two years in, two years did you say?
RT: No, two weeks
AM: Two weeks, I thought you said two years?
RT: No. And I left there on the seventh of May and was home for VE Day, whereas the rest of the crew
AM: They’d had to go backwards
RT: Gone back. They weren’t liberated until after VE Day
AM: Right
RT: And so on, they were, so we arrived back home, erm, even the little ambulance that took me from the airfield down in Hertfordshire to Cosford, called my Mother’s house to let her see me in the back of the, it wasn’t an ambulance, it was sort of a little canvas thing, you know and so on, that was in the middle of the night, because
AM: Did she have advanced warning that you were going to turn up?
RT: No, no, they knocked at the door
AM: [gasps]
RT: And said, ‘we’ve got your son out here’, you know, that would be the first she knew that we’d been liberated and of course it was before the end of the war, and so. And then we, I stayed in the airforce for about a year, the airforce didn’t want me to leave until my future was ascertained. Now, you know about my background of mucking about, this, that and the other, whilst I’d been apprenticed to the carpenter, the bit I fancied was the drawing office, so I’d arranged to get a training course to the draughtsman, and until that training course came through, the airforce kept me on
AM: Right
RT: I was a warrant officer, I got a good salary, I had a nice little flat in Scarborough, I only had to stay in Scarborough long enough to find some prizes for the spa dance every Saturday, and once I’d got my spot prizes I could go home and come back the next week, so
AM: Were you on your own?
RT: Yeah, on my own, yes me on my own with a little flat in Scarborough
AM: Not booking in anywhere or?
RT: No, no, eventually they transferred me to the drawing office at RAF Wittering, but nobody in that drawing office seemed to want, so I used to turn up there on a Monday morning and then catch the first lorry along the main road back to Birmingham for the rest of the week, you know, because they didn’t want me and the airforce were trying to help me. Eventually, my training came, I did my nine months of training and then, for the first job I went to, I was well trained, first job I went to was a good firm, I stayed with them for thirty-three years
AM: Blimey
RT: Yeah, changing jobs all the way through, as a sort of promotion, a good job, that’s where I met Freda
AM: That’s where you met Freda
RT: She worked there, yeah, so we’ve been together not for fourteen years, but for sixty-one years
AM: Sixty something
RT: And so, yeah. Now, when I retired my story vanishes then, I have nothing to do, not true, I met Louis Ure in London nine years after the war, but apart from that, apart from sending Christmas cards to the crew, I had no contact with the crew until I retired, when I retired I went up into Yorkshire to a place called the Rocking Horse shop, because I’d planned to make a rocking horse for my oldest, I was still using my apprenticeship with carpentry
AM: Carpentry
RT: I had always been a bit, you know, and all these little side tables you see there, all of this is, and sheds, fences, all these fences and green house, all that’s is stuff I’ve made, and so, I go to the rocking horse shop and it’s in a place called Holme-on-Spalding-Moor
AM: Yes
RT: Which was twinned to Melbourne. So, I go into the local pub which is called the Bombers Arms which we used to use from Melbourne, and on the wall, was a chart showing that 10 Squadron had just had the 10 Squadron Association dinner, and my pilots name and the bomb aimers name were on there, so I contact the publican and he said, there’s a man at Elvington air museum
[unknown background talking]
RT: Who does Tuesdays and Thursdays, whatever, he’ll be on tomorrow, the secretary to this association. So, I stayed the night in the pub with Freda, I’ve got me bits for my rocking horse, and I go to Elvington, the man on the door says, by the time you get back to Birmingham
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Your crew will be in touch with you, and they was
AM: And they were
RT: And the first reunion was within three weeks, it was at the Prisoners of War Association called Creaky Corps at, who were the people who were in that boat down the Baltic
AM: Yeah
RT: And that became Creaky Corps, Percy Caruthers, the man with the bike, was the chairman, and so, they had, they had a reunion every year, as did 10 Squadron, so within three weeks, we were meeting up in Wellingborough, and we went to Sywell where Percy Caruthers had been trained as a pilot, we always went back there, to the Aviator, a big hotel, and for twenty years we went to those things and when Percy Caruthers was feeling, he’s going to pack up soon, I became the vice chairman because nobody else would take it on, and shortly afterwards, Percy died, and so we went to our first meeting, and the first job I did was to say, I’m not the right bloke to be this thing, I want somebody who really wants to be it, we found another bloke, he came the chairman and he continued, and it went on, you know, he did well, he did well, it didn’t last too many years because the people were dying off, and so, and because 10 Squadron kept going
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: And, Freda and I went to 10 Squadron’s hundredth anniversary this year, we won’t go again [unclear and inaudible words]
AM: How many of the original [inaudible] war veterans were there?
RT: There were one or two including, including ground crew
AM: Right
RT: But nobody that we knew, not one of the people that we used to see year in and year out, and so on, because 10 Squadron is still flying and because they’re still flying, they’ve still got old boys who were youngsters compared to us
AM: Yeah, they were old boys but not as old as you
RT: And, some of their sons and daughters are now, you know, they had to ballot to see who could go
AM: Right
RT: Freda and I, and the pilot’s widow wanted to go and we all got tickets, and we went and stayed in Burford, we did, all the years we used to go there, we used to stay in a pub in a little village called Broadwell, which had five bedrooms, and there were five of us with our ladies
AM: Brilliant
RT: And, for years, and then this publican retired himself, and the people buying it didn’t keep it open as a pub, they shut it down for two years then opened it up as a Swiss restaurant and it failed, so it’s probably derelict now, the house, we are still in touch with the publican who lives down in Devon, you know, et cetera. But that is the story
AM: Okay
RT: As far as the war goes, you know
AM: Wonderful
RT: But the, as I say, the big story is the twenty years that we met after retirement
AM: And enjoyed
RT: Twice a year
AM: Looked back and
RT: And we always went to the reunions and we always stayed another couple of days and we, ah
AM: [Laughs]
RT: And it’s amazing that the things that they, the pilot Dibben and the navigator, the navigator eventually became a publican
AM: Right
RT: And his pub was ever so close to Dibben’s house, so every Friday night, Dibben and the publican told all their audience, related the war
AM: Open the hangar doors [inaudible]
RT: And when Louis and Bob and I joined them, we had to correct all their stories
[laughter]
RT: Yeah
AM: That was wonderful, that was wonderful, I’m going to switch off
RT: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Tomlin
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-18
Type
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Sound
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ATomlinR150818, PTomlinR1503
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Tomlin grew up in Birmingham and was an apprentice carpenter before working in a munitions factory. He volunteered for the Air Force at 18, and after training, flew operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron. His aircraft was forced to ditch in the English Channel and he became a prisoner of war. He discusses the conditions he endured before he was liberated. He became a draughtsman after the war and attended 10 Squadron reunions after his retirement.
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Lithuania
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
Lithuania--Šilutė
Format
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01:08:31 audio recording
10 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
ditching
Dulag Luft
Halifax
prisoner of war
RAF Melbourne
sanitation
shot down
Stalag Luft 6
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/510/8413/ADunnGC170308.1.mp3
0bdeaf205e0caafc4a51fbc886e08f7f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dunn, George
George Charles Dunn
G C Dunn
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Dunn, GC
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Two oral history interviews with George Dunn DFC (1922 1333537, 149315 Royal Air Force), a photograph a document and two log books. He flew operations as a pilot with 10, 76, and 608 Squadrons then transferred to 1409 Meteorological Flight.
There is a sub collection of his photographs from Egypt.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2017-03-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 8th March 2017 and I’m, I’m in Saltdean with George Dunn to talk about his experiences in life, and particularly in the RAF. So what are your earliest recollections of life, George?
GD: I think probably er, when I went to infants school, which was about five and er, that was at West Meads Infant School in Whitstable. From there I went to the Oxford Street Boys Council School and er, I was quite good at football and er, I played and was captain of the juniors, and then the seniors, and er, I did actually get picked for the county but that’s another story, because it happened just after I left school er, where did we go from there?
CB: What did father do? What did your father do?
GD: My, my father was a plasterer, I had two sisters er, one is two years younger than me, and the other one is er, twelve years younger than me, she still lives in Whitstable and the other one lives in er, New South Wales, Australia. I left school when I was fourteen and er, joined Pickfords the removal company as a junior clerk. I stayed with them in, in the, in the following years, I played football for various local sides, and er, I can remember the day that the war broke out. I was sitting round a little radio set that my father had bought with Black Cat tobacco coupons er, we weren’t very well off so that was one way of getting a, getting a radio set. I don’t know how many cigarettes he must have smoked to get it [laughs]. I can well remember, we were all sitting round this radio set on the day that war was declared, anxiously waiting for Mr. Chamberlain to er, make his announcement er, which he did at eleven o’clock I think it was, and it was a funny feeling ‘cos one minute we were at peace, and in the blink of an eyelid, we were at war and of course we were all wondering what it was going to mean, er going on a bit er, when the blitz started on London I used to stand on the er, cliffs at Whitstable and could see all these hordes of German bombers coming up the Thames Estuary. Because Whitstable is on the North Kent coast and er, it was er, it was an awful sight because you knew what was going to happen when they reached London. I also saw a lot of the Battle of Britain er, which er took place obviously mostly over Kent and Sussex, and I think possibly that might have influenced me in why I joined the RAF. The other reasons that I joined is, for one thing I have a fear of drowning, and I didn’t fancy the army ‘cos one always had a picture in the background, the trenches and er, the terrible slaughter that went on in the First World War so I thought well I’ll go for the RAF. When I went up to Chatham, er this, I would be eighteen at that time, this was in January 1941, I went up to Chatham and er decided that I would apply for wireless operator air gunner. We had to do a written, a written exam and er, when I went to the interview, I think there were three RAF officers there, and they said, ‘why have you applied to er, er for a WOPAG?’ So I said, ‘well I don’t really think that I’m sufficiently educated to er, go for anything higher like a pilot’, and they said, ‘well we’ve had a look at your results and we think you are qualified, so would you consider er changing to under training pilot?’ So I said, ‘well yes, I’d be quite happy to.’ I was quite elated to think that er, then er, National Registration Card was stamped U/T pilot, under training pilot. I wasn’t called up until June of that year 1941 and I went down to um, oh prior to that, of course, after I volunteered at Chatham, I did go to Uxbridge to be sworn in, going back to er, being called up, I went down to Babbacombe and spent a week there getting kitted up er, listening to er, lectures on Air Force Law er. and that sort of thing and doing drill, and at the end of that er week, we were then posted to initial training wing, which was number eight at Newquay. That was a six week course which involved er, going back to partially mathematics, basic navigation, Air Force Law, Morse Code, and then at the end of that, I was posted up to a transit camp at er, West Kirby in the Wirral. I had only been there a short while when I was strickened down with appendicitis and peritonitis and er, I was on the dangerously ill list, my parents were sent for to come up because I was not expected to live er, anyway fortune favoured me and I did recover. At the end of that, I was given three weeks, I spent three weeks in an RAF hospital, had two operations and er, at the end of that was given three weeks sick leave er, after which I had to go to RAF Holton for a, a full medical at the end of that they said, ‘we’re going to put you on six months home service, you won’t be able to go abroad.’ Which rather disappointed me because er, there was very little elementary flying being done in England at that stage, nearly all the flying was being done under the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme at Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia and er, lots of places in Canada When I got back to er West Kirby after sick leave, within about three days, I found I was on draft for Southern Rhodesia. Well, I’d always I’d always fancied Canada so I went up to the warrant officer and I said er, ‘can’t send me to Southern Rhodesia,’ showed him my card which said six months home service. So I was taken off draft, spent a few more weeks there just kicking the heels, and then was sent to another transit camp at Heaton Park in Manchester. There again it was a question of weeding gardens, picking up litter, literally didn’t know what to do with you. A few days before Christmas, I suddenly was told I was on draft for Canada, so this time I kept quiet and I was on tenterhooks right up until the day we set sail, which was Christmas Eve and er, on the ship, and we set off. It was a an awful ship er from Norway, it was called “The Bergensfjord” and the weather was atrocious across the Irish Sea, and for thirty six hours I was absolutely stricken down, along with many others, with sea sickness. We were, we were just, people were just laying all over the ship, in the toilets, absolutely prostrate, anyway we finally recovered and we got to, to Halifax Nova Scotia I think it was, er New Year’s Day or thereabouts. From there we caught the train down to Moncton, which was a Royal Canadian Air Force Base, and when we got there that evening, the dining table was a sight to behold. There was butter, sugar, milk, ice cream, steak, you name it, it was there, and we thought if this is what we’re going to get for the next nine months or so, it’s gonna be great. We then went on to er, I was posted to Saskatchewan, which took us three days to get there on, on the train, the seats were just slatted on this train so our backsides had got quite a few dents in when we got there er, it was snowing practically the whole way and quite deep snow at, at er a little place called Caron. There was nothing there apart from the RAF or the RCAF base and er a couple of grain elevators and two or three cottages, it was about eighteen miles west of Moose Jaw, so I did my er, elementary training there on Tiger Moths, which I think was sixty hours, and from there I was posted to a place called Weyburn, which was south east of Moose Jaw, and that was on er twin engine Avro Ansons. At the end of that course, we got our wings and after that we were posted back to Moncton, which included er a week’s leave which I spent with some distant relatives in Toronto, also called Dunn. From there we went up to Halifax again and er, we were shipped back to this country er, arriving here at Greenock, from Greenock we went down to Bournemouth to await a posting er, to carry on the further flying. I went to er Little Rissington and from there er, to Chipping Norton, which was a satellite of er Rissi, and did a er short course on Air Speed Oxfords, which was about I think forty five hours, that was to get used to er the flying conditions in this country because of course, Canada was well lit up, but this country was under blackout conditions so it was quite, quite a change. On completion of that course, I was sent up to er, Lossiemouth er, on er OTU on Wellingtons 1C’s and it was there that we formed our crew, initially of five people. Now the way a crew was formed was quite casual, we were strolling around in a hanger, in my case I um, met up with a chap from Ayr who was a bomb aimer, and he said, ‘are you crewed up yet?’ and I said, ‘no.’ He said er, ‘do you fancy crewing up with me or me with you?’ I said, ‘yeah fair enough.’ he said, ‘I happen to know another Scotsman called er Todd, Jock Todd, he’s a wireless operator. If you like I’ll have a word with him,’ so that was made three of us, we then met up with er, er a pilot officer [phone ringing]. Shall I take that?
CB: So you’ve got your wireless operator.
GD: And er, he said -
CB: And, your bomb aimer.
GD: And he said um, ‘oh I know um, I’ve also met up with pilot office and navigator from Belfast, he’s not crewed up with anyone,’ so we got introduced and er, that made four of us and um, I forget now we, we, we met up with a little Canadian rear gunner er, a little chap called Dixie Dean er, so he made up the five which was all you needed at um OUT. From there we did our, we did our course, and er were then posted to um, Rufforth, which was a Heavy Conversion Unit, Halifaxes er, near York. Whilst we were there er, Reg the navigator knew of another gunner, a mid upper gunner who was er remustered physical training instructor, and er so that made us up with six and then the flight engineer was the only one that was actually allocated. This chap came up to me, his name was Ferris Newton, and he said, ‘er are you George Dunn?’ I said, ‘yes,’ he said, ‘oh I’ve been allocated as your flight engineer,’ so I said, ‘fair enough.’ Well of course it was a bit of a bonus er having him, because it turned out that not only did he own a car but his wife and his mother ran a pub at Horsforth near Leeds, so we used to er get seven of us, if you can believe it, in a Morris 8, that was three in the front and four in the back, and we would go over to er Horsforth from er Rufforth, and er well now perhaps I’m jumping the gun a bit. We didn’t go there then, we waited till we got on squadron, anyway when we got to Rufforth, I’d hardly my feet had hardly touched the ground and they said, ‘you’ve got to go off to 10 Squadron at Melbourne to do your two second dickie trips,’ because a pilot, had to go and do two trips with an experienced crew before he was allowed to take his own crew on operations, but at that time I hadn’t even set foot in a Halifax, most pilots did a few hours flying and then they were sent off, but in my case I was sent off virtually straight away, and of course, of all of all trips, the first one was er Essen, which was probably the worst target that you could er imagine having to go to, probably the most heavily defended town in the Ruhr, so I did two I did Essen that night and Kiel the following night and then went back to um Rufforth to start the conversion on the Halifaxes. And of course, the first thing the others wanted to know, you know, ‘how did you get on George? What was it like?’ so I said, ‘well put it this way, when you go on your first trip make sure that you got a clean pair of underpants with you.’ [laughs] Anyway we, we got through our Heavy Conversion Unit and er we were then posted to 76 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse. Now at Linton, there were two squadrons operating at the same time, 76 and 78. I did five trips, I think it was, from there with the crew and then sadly they said, ‘your um, your whole squadron is going to a place called Holme on Spalding Moor.’ What had happened was that the Canadian group, number six group, was being formed and they were given all the peacetime stations, and this applied to the Australians as well but both the Australians and the Canadians said, ‘look our chaps are not going in to Nissen Huts, if they go do operations on raids over Germany, there going to have something decent to live in,’ so we were shipped out to a Nissen Camp, and the Canadians and the Australians got all the peacetime stations so that’s where we finished. We carried on our tour from Holme on Spalding Moor, and of course during that during that period, when we got the nights off, we would pile in this Morris 8, three in the front and four in the back, and off to um “The Old Ball” at er Horsforth, and of course the locals were very good to us, we stayed overnight er, one or two of us stayed in the pub, the others were put up by some of the customers, they were very hospitable there’s no doubt about it, and of course, we’d go off back early in the morning, the following morning feeling a bit worse for wear. So where do we go from there?
CB: So when you came to the end, did you do thirty ops per tour?
GD: I did thirty, the rest of the crew didn’t because I had two in front of them.
CB: Yes with somebody else, with another captain did you?
GD: When I went to Number 10 Squadron.
CB: Yes.
GD: Yes.
CB: Right, so what happened then?
GD: Well when we finished our tour of course, we were all split up which was a bit emotional, and from the first morning, following our last trip, the following morning I was woken up by the adjutant and said, ‘sorry, but we’ve got a rather sad task for you. You’ve got to take four coffins containing two Mosquito crews which collided nearby, you’ve got to take them to um, York Station to go to their respective er, er towns where they were being being buried,’ er which was a little bit of an anti-climax because you know, there was only one er place beside the driver, the rest of us had to sit in the back with the coffins. So there we were, we were split up, and er I went to um er OTU at Finningley, Wellingtons again, 1C’s, er I didn’t stay at Finningley long because they had a satellite station at Worksop, and er there I was instructing. I did two instructors courses, one on Wellingtons at Church Broughton and another one, a month at the Central Flying School at er Lulsgate Bottom, which is now Bristol Airport. I carried on instructing until I think it was just before Christmas ’45, and er I saw a notice on the er on the board about er, they wanted er Mosquito crews, well I’d already become friendly with a, with a navigator who was in the navigation section at Worksop, and er I said to him, ‘how do you fancy going back on ops, on Mossis?’ He said, ‘I’m a bit fed up with instructing,’ I said, ‘yeah well so am I,’ so we volunteered to go back and er, we were posted to er, Upper Heyford in Oxfordshire, and from there to er, a satellite station at Barford St. John, which was just outside of Banbury. We did short, I did about four or five hours dual on a Mosquito before I went solo and from there we were posted to 608 Squadron, which was a main force Mosquito Squadron at Downham Market in Norfolk. I did a number of trips there, mostly to Berlin, and then a friend of mine who was on a Mosquito met flight at Whitton said, ‘there’s a vacancy come up for a crew with us on a met flight, do you fancy it?’ So we said, ‘yes,’ we weren’t, we weren’t all that happy at 608 Squadron, I don’t know why but the atmosphere wasn’t the same as when it was on Halifaxes, so we moved to Whitton on this met flight, and er I did er a few ops on that and then war, the war finished and then I stayed on er, I stayed on the met flight, we moved to er Upwood er near Peterborough, and then it was disbanded. It was the 1409, the met flight, and it was disbanded, and we went on to 109 Squadron which was being converted to a met flight, er from there, we had very three quick moves, we went to Woodhall Spa, Wickenby, and Hemswell, all within a month, and then whilst we were at Hemswell, there was a request, they wanted to start a met flight er Mosquitos, at er Malta. So they got ten crews together er and er I’d still got my navigator, and we flew out in a Stirling to Malta and when we got there, the er powers that be said, ‘what are you lot doing here? We don’t know anything about you,’ so we, we appointed, well most of the pilots were flight lieutenants, there’s no other rank above that, so we appointed a spokesman and he went and saw the CO, the Group Captain Station Commander, he said, ‘well I don’t know what’s going on,’ he said, ‘we’ve got no idea of what you are doing there, we, we weren’t told,’ so they gave us er, they gave us an old hut on the far side of Luqa Airfield, they gave us an old lorry to transport us so we just spent a lovely six weeks in Malta going to Valletta and Silema, they didn’t want to know us. Anyway they, whilst we were there, I did manage to get one or two ferry trips in er from Italy in Mosquitos, and er eventually they decided that they weren’t going to form a met flight after all, so we were split up, I went to um a, a, a transit camp at El Marso, which was er well, and my navigator which was just outside Cairo and er literally just kicked our heels. We went into Cario most days, sunbathing at er one of the hotels swimming pools, and then eventually I er got a posting to Ismailia and my navigator got a posting to Heliopolis, which is a suburb of Cairo, and when, and when I got to Ismailia, I reported to the er flight commander, who was er Flight Lieutenant Tommy Grace, I said, well told him the story that I’d been through Malta and we’d er we weren’t required after all and er I said, ‘I don’t know what I’ve come here for?’ I said er, ‘what aircraft do you fly?’ He said, ‘we fly Spitfires,’ so I said, ‘well I haven’t flown a single engine aircraft since I flew a Tiger Moth er when I first er started flying.’ ‘Oh,’ he said ‘I shouldn’t worry about it,’ he said, ‘you’ll soon get used to it,’ gave me the pilots notes on the Spitfire. In those days, there was no dual er Spitfires so er I just got in and went off, and what we were doing, basically we were renovating um aircraft, mostly Spitfires for er the Greek Air Force. We testing them and then there were two Greek pilots there and once we passed them, they had to pass them out and then when we got er about ten Spitfires ready, we used to take them over to Athens with a Lancaster escort to do the navigating and er refuel at er Cyprus, and come back to Egypt in a Lanc as passengers, and of course whilst I was there I managed to get a a trip in a Hurricane, a Mustang and various other training aircraft. Harvard, a thing called a Fairchild Argus, er an Auster, a Proctor. it was a free for all [laughs].
CB: How long were you doing that for?
GD: And then er this would be and then it got to um, it would be, I suppose about May and I had a phone call to say I was wanted over at a tented camp, everything was tents, the mess, the living quarters, everything was tents. There wasn’t a building there apart from the hangars and they said er, ‘we’ve got some Halifaxes here that er we want testing, and we haven’t got a, there’s not a Halifax pilot in the area anywhere that we can know of.' Well just a few weeks prior to that, an engineering officer had also been posted from Kasfareet where I was then, to this place at er Kilo 40, which was known as Gebel Hamzi and um, he’s gone to sleep look [laughs].
CB: He’s doing all right.
GD: [Laughs] and er there were some Yugoslav pilots there who er had never flown Halifaxes, so I had to take them up, test these Halifaxes and er pass these er Yugoslav pilots out to fly them.
CB: Where had they come from then?
GD: Don’t know where they come from, er and then of course whilst I, whilst I was there, I got the opportunity of flying a couple back to this country and er also in that time, I flew, I think it was a couple of Mosquitoes back here, er and my last flight in June ’47 was to bring a Halifax back here which I left at er Thetford.
CB: But what was your unit? If you were flying these things and ferrying them, what was the unit? Was it an MU or was it a squadron?
GD: No, no, no, it wasn’t a squadron. I’ll tell you what it was [opens a draw looking for something].
CB: So just get them. So your unit was at Ismailia still but it was actually an MU as well as flying base?
GD: Well that’s, that’s what it was called, 132 MU.
CB: MU yes.
GD: There was no squadron.
CB: No.
GD: No squadron or anything like that.
CB: What I meant was, MU didn’t normally -
GD: Just 132 and 132 MU
CB: Yes. [Pause] So when you, you delivered the aircraft, Halifax or Mosquito, how did they get you back there?
GD: I came back in used to come back in the York
CB: Ah.
GD: Yeah, where are we [flipping through pages of book] yeah came back in the York from Lyneham.
CB: Lyneham. So you’d fly all these planes into Lyneham would you?
GD: No, no er, one, once I went to Gosforth with one and then we’d nip home for a few days leave and er report back to Lyneham for for, ‘cos that was transport command.
CB: Right. So why were these planes being brought back, what had happened to their crews?
GD: I don’t know, you know, I don’t even know why they were there.
CB: Because the Yugoslav pilots were flying the Halifaxes.
GD: I don’t know where they went to, I was only there, when did I go there, October ’46 I went to Kilo 40 [looking through book], yes I was only there for, only there for a short period.
CB: Yes, but what was the reason for you going out to Ismailia in the first place?
GD: Well that was when, that was when we, we didn’t form the met flight er see.
CB: Right.
GD: When they split us all up at Malta, I don’t know where the others went to but my navigator and myself found ourselves at El Marsa, at this transit camp near Cairo.
CB: So when you returned the Halifaxes to Britain, was it just the two of you on the plane?
GD: Oh no, no.
CB: You had a full crew?
GD: No, no, no we didn’t have gunners, just er er wireless op, navigator, flight engineer, and pilot.
CB: Right.
GD: No, no need for gunners.
CB: No.
GD: And then of course we used to have to clear customs er when we got back here in those days.
CB: What were you bringing back - figs?
GD: [Laughs] Oh they were very hot the customs yeah. I brought a Mosquito back once and they were, they were quite thorough, went all through the fuselage and everything.
CB: What did people bring back then carpets or? I mean a serious point because in the Middle East they made carpets.
GD: Well I suppose people, a few people tried to get back cigarettes and booze, usual thing, but er it wasn’t worth it. No they were too thorough.
CB: So that’s October ’46, you didn’t leave until ’47 so what did you do the rest of the time?
GD: Well I was flying, um doing mostly flying Spitfires on testing.
CB: Because at the MU they’d been repairing them.
GD: Yes, yes.
CB: Any hiccups with that, when you were test flying?
GD: No, no they were, they were in pretty good condition, yeah, but I mean, see there’s one there, Halifax in January er I brought it back to Manston for customs clearance and then took it up to Scotland, to a place called Edsel, but for the life of me, I don’t know how I got back from there. Must have been by rail I think, then the next thing was coming back I, I delivered it to Edsel on the 17th January and flew back in a York a week later.
CB: How long did it take in a York to fly to Ismailia, you made a load of stops?
GD: Er fourteen hours, we went to er Castel Benito and then on to El Marsa, Palestine.
CB: Castel Benito.
GD: No Egypt, North Africa.
CB: Ah yes, in Libya, yes. So how did you find those ferry trips, were they exciting, boring or-
GD: Oh boring, nothing to do, I mean they weren’t comfortable.
CB: What sort of height would you fly?
GD: Oh no idea really.
CB: To keep cool I was thinking.
GD: Wouldn’t be, wouldn’t be that high I shouldn’t think.
CB: No.
GD: Probably around fifteen thousand, probably yes.
CB: So what was the most memorable point about your service in the RAF would you say?
GD: Are you talking about an operation? oh I think um, probably the raid on Peenemunde which er -
CB: How did that go?
GD: Well from our point of view, it went very well but er not so, because when we er, when we went to the briefing er that afternoon, the first thing we noted was that there was extra RAF Police on the door, which we thought was rather unusual and er of course when we got inside and everbody was there and they drew the curtains back, we saw the er the red ribbon going right the way up the North Sea across Denmark to keep us clear of the flak on the North German coast. But er when we were in the briefing, you know, they, they pulled the curtains back and when we saw this track and then it finished up at this vague point on the Baltic coast. I mean we were used to bombing from about eighteen, nineteen thousand feet on German cities you know, big areas, and this target and we weren’t told the precise nature of what was going on there, all we were told was that it was a research station connected with radar, but that it was a very important raid as far as we were concerned, as far as this country was concerned. Because we thought, well I mean, it was just five hundred and ninety six aircraft, what are five hundred and ninety six aircraft doing on a target not much bigger than about two football stadiums, where we were used to er, I mean huge areas. What could possibly be there that would warrant a maximum effort from Bomber Command and of course initially, it was gonna, the raid was gonna take place in three waves, two bomber, two bomber groups in each wave. Now initially, 4 Group which was Halifaxes, together with another Group, I can’t remember which one it was, was scheduled to go in last. Our aiming point was the living quarters where all the scientists and the technicians were, but the schedule was changed, we were moved from the last wave to the first, because they were frightened that our aiming point was gonna to be obscured by smoke from the smoke detonators, so they moved us to the first wave. Which as it turned out was very fortunate from our point of view, I mean we, we ran in on our final run in, er the flak was only light and we, we bombed and turned out and came away, but of course when the raid was halfway over, the night fighters arrived because what had happened in, in with the main force, there were about a small force of Mosquitoes I think it was, about eight that went on to Berlin because they wanted them to think that it was a raid on Berlin. So the Mosquitoes veered off to Berlin, we veered left to Peenemunde and of course, over the previous months Peenemunde had got a bit complacent, because at one time, when Berlin was bombed, although it was about um, I think it was about sixty miles away, the air raid sirens and that all went off at Peenemunde and everything was shut down so it interrupted their all their work. But then of course, Peenemunde was never bombed, it was always Berlin, so of course they got complacent, so when we got there that night, they had no idea that was there was going to be a raid, and over Berlin the Mosquitoes had been dropping window, you know the little slips of aluminium which had been previously used on Hamburg, and the night fighters of course were at their usual height, looking for the heavy bombers at eighteen, twenty, twenty one thousand, and they weren’t there and it was er the, the ground controllers were in turmoil they, the -.
CB: The German ones?
GD: Yeah the German ones. The night fighters were saying well where are they, and the ground controllers couldn’t tell them, and it wasn’t until one pilot happened to spot the fires at Peenemunde about halfway through the raid, that they realised that it was Peenemunde that was being bombed. So of course all the night fighters and I mean it was a perfect night, it was no cloud, er moonlight, we, we went in at seven thousand feet instead of eighteen, nineteen thousand, and er of course once the night fighters got there, they had a field day. We finished up losing forty aircraft, nearly three hundred men
CB: Amazing
GD: So that change from us going from the third to the first wave, I might not have been talking to you now.
CB: Yes yes, saved you. So how long was that flight?
GD: Well it was about seven hours forty I think.
CB: Right.
GD: Seven hours forty I think.
CB: Now going over the Baltic and then, first of all over Denmark and then over the Baltic, how close did you get to Sweden?
GD: Oh not that close the, the main place that we had to er miss if possible was Flensburg, that was a bit of a hot spot for flak, seven hours forty, and then we had er, we had a bad hydraulic leak, so when we came back, we were diverted to a place called Wymeswold in er Lincolnshire, we had to leave the aircraft there it was.
CB: Oh, did you.
GD: Yes, couldn’t fly it back.
CB: So you got the undercarriage down by winding it down did you?
GD: No, no we got the undercarriage down all right, we had no flaps.
CB: Oh I see.
GD: We didn’t have any flaps.
CB: Mmm, okay, so that was the most memorable event of your ops?
GD: The only other thing the, the nearest I suppose I got to getting the chop was um when I was instructing at er Worksop. I was in charge of night flying one night and I had a pupil by the name of Flying Officer Jennings, he was quite experienced, he’d come from flying training command, and he was down to do circuits and bumps, and the, it was a bit like this er, the weather was, it was a bit hazy, not bad not as bad as this, and I said to him, ‘well I’ll come with you on the first circuit, just to make sure that the weather conditions are okay for you to carry on.’ er and I’d arranged for, after we landed, for him to taxi round to the take off point where er transport, I got out, transport picked me up and he went off on his next circuit. When he came round and for some reason, he overshot. Now why he overshot I don’t know whether it was, whether he made an error on his approach or whatever I, I don’t know, anyway that was it, never saw him again. It turned out he crashed at er somewhere near Nottingham and at the, I had to go down to the, I had to go down to the Court of Enquiry and eventually it was found that a prop line had come off so -
CB: Was that the implication it destroyed the aircraft because of vibration or the blade hit the pilot?
GD: I don’t know, I didn’t get the full result, all I know a prop line had come off it would I mean er I don’t know whether he had a chance to feather it or so that was that was a bit of a near do [laughs].
CB: Yeah, How did you like being an instructor?
GD: Oh it was all right but it, it got a bit, it got a bit boring after a while, you know, when you were teaching somebody circuits and landings all that, and then you’d have to go on a cross country with them when they were doing there um, er navigation, they were doing their cross countries you had to er sort of sit there for four or five hours.
CB: Now what about the social life surrounding all of this, how did that work?
GD: Well squadron life was actually quite good because there was no er no bull at all, you know, we didn’t have, we didn’t have parades or anything like that. I mean a typical day would be, we’d go down to flights about nine, nine thirty, report to flight commander, have a look up when they decided whether there was ops on that night, you know, and look at the battle order and see whether you were on. And then er you might go and do an air test if er, there’d been something wrong with your aircraft might go and do an air test, or you might go down to the intelligence office, spend an hour down there, you might go on sometimes, we’d do what you call dry dinghy drill. We’d go out to the dispersal and practice, getting out if we had to ditch um, we might go and do a bit of aircraft recognition, go down the parachute section have a look at them packing parachutes. By lunchtime you were free to do what you want, I mean I played football, I played cricket, I played squash, tennis er it was quite um a sort of casual life apart from the er you know the operations and that the rest of it, was, was quite nice.
CB: Now the successful flight of an aircraft is partly based on ground crew, so how did they, what were they like.
GD: We had a smashing ground crew, you couldn’t, you couldn’t have done the job without them. I mean er we used to take them down to the pub for a beer every now and again, but er you know, you relied on them doing their job properly.
CB: And how many planes did they look after, one, two?
GD: Ooh. I would think, I mean the people that looked after our plane were, always looked after that one and they probably have another, maybe another one, another two.
CB: A topic that comes up occasionally is LMF. What experience did you have of that?
GD: Lack of moral fibre.
CB: Yes.
GD: Yeah we did have one chap that er got er turfed off, he was always turning back, flying officer, and always turning back for some reason or the other until they um they cottoned on to him er and he was shipped off to Sheffield, stripped of his rank.
CB: What did they do to make an example of him, at the station. Did they do anything?
GD: No, one minute they were, there the next minute they were gone, it was all very quick. That was the only, that was the only case that I remember that stood out er.
CB: But that was your squadron?
GD: Yeah.
CB: Was it, how many squadrons on the airfield?
GD: Only ours
CB: Only yours.
GD: Except for Linton.
CB: Yes.
GD: Before we split up with 78, 78 went to Breighton, we went to Holme on Spalding Moor.
CB: And how many aircraft would there be in the squadron?
GD: Er probably about thirty.
CB: So four flights?
GD: Three.
CB: Three flights.
GD: A, B, and C.
CB: Ok.
GD: Roughly ten aircraft a flight.
CB: Some of the raids were quite dicey, others were quiet. How many times did you get chased by fighters?
GD: We never got, we were lucky, we never got chased by a fighter. We got involved with flak quite a bit ‘cos the Ruhr, most of my er trips were to the Ruhr, and er that was pretty heavy for flak there.
CB: So on the run in, can you just talk us through how that worked, what was the timespan you had to settle down before on your way in, so how would that work?
GD: You tried, you tried to get on to your course, your final course for the run in, and then for say five minutes roughly, you were in the hands of the bomb aimer, completely in his hands, you know. He would say, ‘right, left, left, steady, steady, a bit more left,’ until he got to the stage when he would say, ‘bombs are gone,’ and then of course, you had to wait, you had to stay on course for your photo flash.
CB: So how was the, the time you had to stay on course depended on your height for the photo flash to drop, so who worked that out, was that prescribed before you set off?
GD: Yes I mean height, height didn’t really come into it because you knew you were going in at say er eighteen, nineteen thousand, I mean you knew that before you started.
CB: Yes that’s what I meant.
GD: That would be your bombing height so the er flash was er, would follow on from there, but you definitely, that was the worst part, making sure that you stayed until flash operated.
CB: So the bombs went, you were some way from the target when the bombs went?
GD: We were still, yes.
CB: Because of their parabola of the fall.
GD: Forward fall, yes.
CB: And photo flash went how soon after the bombs were released.
GD: Approximately half a minute.
CB: Right, so on balance, you’d have to be steady in order to take your picture, for how long roughly?
GD: About half a minute.
CB: Right, and who operated the camera the bomb aimer or -
GD: That was automatic.
CB: Oh automatic, and what did they do with that picture?
GD: Went to intelligence you might, I don’t think I’ve actually got any, any um somewhere, that’s the sort of picture, look that could be taken, that was probably, that was probably er er a flare.
CB: Yeah, blowing in the wind.
GD: Yeah, but you would, you would hopefully try and get ground detail if possible in the flash.
CB: So what about the smoke, to what extent was smoke over the target a problem for you?
GD: Well yeah, I mean basically, I mean, you bombed on the reds and greens put down by pathfinders.
CB: By pathfinders yeah.
GD: And it was, if it was um er, cloud of course, you did, they did air markings which was called whanganui, I think the air markers but of course, that wasn’t all that accurate.
CB: To what extent could you see other aircraft in the vicinity?
GD: You could see if they were close enough and of course, you did see aircraft being shot down as well.
CB: How did you feel about that?
GD: Hard luck.
CB: Yes.
GD: Not us, I mean my friend Dave at Balcombe we were talking about, they were involved in a mid-air collision.
CB: Were they?
GD: With another Lancaster, they lost six foot of their wing.
CB: And still kept flying?
GD: Managed to get back and land safely.
CB: What about the one that hit them?
GD: The what?
CB: What about the one that hit them?
GD: All went down, all killed.
CB: Oh were they.
GD: Yes.
CB: So effectively, the propeller sliced off the end of the wing but that completely jiggered the other aircraft?
GD: Yeah, well they’d got no aileron, you see.
CB: Right.
GD: The aileron went.
CB: Right.
GD: So he had a job, he had a job to er, I think they lost an engine as well I think on that, so they had yeah er, quite a job bringing it back.
CB: So as a pilot, how would you handle a three engine with bad damage?
GD: Well you’ve got, you’ve got trimming tabs which er would allow you to make sure that the aircraft would go the way you wanted it to, er the trimming tabs of course were actually on the ailerons, but of course on one side, they’d gone.
CB: Yes.
GD: Of course you could, you could feather the engine, you see, where the prop, where the prop blades turn, so you got the least wind resistance.
CB: Yes, so er your speed would normally be what?
GD: Halifax, about a hundred and sixty.
CB: Oh, was it knots or miles per hour?
GD: Knots.
CB: Right, so that’s a hundred and sixty, hundred and seventy five miles an hour. Now were the other bombers in the stream at different heights, so was there a level that the Halifaxes flew at, and a different one that the Lancasters flew at?
GD: Yes.
CB: Why was that?
GD: Well you obviously tried to er spread the raid out as much as you could, if you had everybody, if you had sort of six hundred aircraft, all flying at the same height, whereas Stirlings would be down here, Halifaxes would be there, Lancasters would be there, but er there was always a risk of course and it did happen, that er you would get hit by somebody else’s bomb.
CB: Yeah. Did you see any of that happening?
GD: No, well you saw an explosion but you wouldn’t know what caused it.
CB: No, and thinking of explosions, to what extent did you see aircraft shot down from underneath by Germans, German night fighters?
GD: They hadn’t got that when we on [unclear].
CB: Oh they hadn’t.
GD: No schlagermusic.
CB: Schlagermusic
GD: Yeah, no, that came a bit later.
CB: Okay, so I think we’ve covered a huge range of things but after you left the RAF, what did you do?
GD: I went back to Pickfords, I did my um er, B Licence in London and er went to London School of Air Navigation, but there were so many of us on the market and of course, I mean, in my digs alone, there were nineteen pilots and, and they had about five courses running at the same time, I mean the, the civil airlines hadn’t really got going, the people that scored were the RAF pilots that were seconded to British European Airways before they were demobbed, before the war finished perhaps, but er ‘cos they got in on the ground floor. I mean they’d, in fact I went into the gents, I think it was in was it in Malta, and I stood next to my flight commander at er Holme on Spalding Moor, he was with er British European Airways.
CB: Oh, was he, right.
GD: So, so I, I, I er, I tried one or two places to get a job, but er there was nothing doing, so I went back to Pickfords, because they had to keep your job open you see, all, all companies had to keep your job available for you and in any case, they were, they were half the people anyway, the company and I stayed with them until I retired.
CB: At sixty five.
GD: Sixty.
CB: Sixty. What was you doing at Pickfords then?
GD: I was a branch manager.
CB: Right.
GD: Mmm.
CB: Round here?
GD: And we had a travel business as well.
CB: So where were you operating from, from Pickfords?
GD: Well when I came out the RAF, I went back to Hearne Bay for a while um, for a couple of years, and then I was posted up to Lancashire, er stayed there for about six and a half years, and then down to Aldershot, where I was, I was there for eleven years, and then finally down to here, where I retired. I retired early because there was those were when the pressure started being put on people to produce more [laughs], I’d had enough of that, I did, I didn’t stop work, I, I found several, I used to work for other removal companies, doing estimating and er I went up to London, stood in for the training officer that suddenly went back to Australia. I was there for six months doing the, doing their training so er I didn’t actually pack up work.
CB: As far as associations concerned, was there a squadron association running for many years that you were associated with?
GD: No, not, not to start with, er 76 Squadron Association of course is still going today, um did go to one or two reunions and I also went to two Bomber Command reunions.
CB: Yes.
GD: Where the first one I think was run by the Evening Standard or it was at the Albert Hall.
CB: Oh the Albert Hall.
GD: And everyone was shouting, ‘we want butch, we want butch,’ [laughs].
CB: He’d gone to South Africa. So how do you feel about the, getting the position of getting the clasp now for Bomber Command but not having -
GD: Well I mean quite honestly, when you look at it and you see what it is, and it took all that time and all that argument and, and discussion, and when you finish up with not, I wasn’t bothered about it.
CB: Right, how did you feel about bombing?
GD: Oh I mean don’t forget that. What was I, was, I had my twenty first birthday two weeks after I’d finished my tour on Halifaxes and I mean in those days, an eighteen to twenty year old was a lot different to an eighteen twenty year old today. We were a lot more naïve and don’t forget, I’d seen a lot living at Whitstable, I’d seen all these hordes of German bombers going up to London, and of course places like Coventry and Plymouth and er Southampton, all those places got very badly bombed. And er er no I mean war is war, and women and children are going to get killed, it’s unavoidable. I mean if you take er factories, er take the Ruhr for example, if you’ve got factories, you are going to have people living near them, workers and er not all bombs are going to hit the factory. I, I’ve never felt any guilt about it and of course Bomber Command did get a bad press after the war, what with Dresden.
CB: So when the RAF memorial was unveiled, how did you feel about that?
GD: I thought that was something, it was well worthwhile, well worth waiting for.
CB: ‘Cos you were there?
GD: Yeah it was, it’s a marvellous monument, it’s a marvellous memorial. I mean the sculpture is beautiful. No I think it was, it should have happened a lot earlier, I mean not so much for the people that survived but for the fifty five and half thousand that didn’t.
CB: Yes.
GD: Was a lot you know I mean out of a hundred, what’s it, a hundred and twenty five?
CB: A hundred and twenty five thousand.
GD: Over five fifty five and half killed.
CB: Fifty five thousand five hundred.
GD: It’s a big percentage.
CB: Yes 44.4.
GD: Well take Peenemunde for example.
CB: Yes.
GD: You know fourteen aircraft, nearly three hundred men in one night, and that was only one raid in the war.
CB: Good. Thank you very much indeed, really interesting, fascinating actually.
CB: Just as a recap George, in your early days, when you were at OTU and then HCU and then on the squadron, er how did you go through training for evading fighters? Did you have fighter affiliation? How did that work?
GD: Well the only fighter affiliation we had was when we were at, not on the squadron. I didn’t do any on the squadron but on HCU, we’d just go off and then er we knew that somewhere, usually it was a spitfire who would er appear from nowhere, your gunners, your gunners would be on the alert and er give you the instruction you know, ‘corkscrew right, corkscrew left, dive,’ and er I think we only did about two when I was on HCU two fighter affiliations.
CB: But there would always be a corkscrew in the affiliation would there?
GD: Yes.
CB: And in earnest, how often did you have to use er, corkscrew?
GD: Only once, er I’m trying to think which raid it was, um we got, we got coned.
CB: Oh yes by searchlights.
GD: By one of the um, one of the radar patrolled searchlights, and of course, you were like a, like a, once you’re coned with the blue one, all the others come on and you’re like a fairy sitting on top of a Christmas tree and er straight away, you corkscrew out. We didn’t have to corkscrew because of a fighter but only because of the er getting coned.
CB: And that worked did it?
GD: That worked yeah, but um, er it’s not pleasant.
CB: No.
GD: You just sit sitting up there er, you know, as I say with a like a fairy on a Christmas tree [laughs], you know, you’re the focal point and you’ve gotta get out of it as soon as you can, but fortunately that was the only time we had to do it in combat. We, we were lucky on our tour, we had, I would say, I mean apart from the heavy flak which you got er most of the time um, we, we didn’t get attacked by a fighter and um we had probably a reasonably good tour.
CB: Much damage to the aircraft from flak?
GD: Yeah a few flak holes, yeah, nothing serious.
CB: Ground crew reaction to damaging their aeroplane?
GD: Yeah [laughs], what you bring it like that for [laughs], you ought to know better [laughs].
CB: Did it cost you a beer or two?
GD: Yes [laughs], yes.
CB: So with the ground crew, how did the liaison go?
GD: Oh very well, in fact I kept in touch with one of our ground crew after the war, er a fellow called Johnnie, Johnnie somebody, lived in Stoke Newington.
CB: Was he the chiefy?
GD: No, not the chiefy.
CB: And with the ground crew, who was the main, the person normally linking with them in the aircrew. Was it the pilot or would it be the engineer?
GD: Well both really er because you see, you had the engine fitter, the airframe fitter, the instrument fitter, the instrument man, the armourer, so er they were all they were all involved.
CB: Because you were on the fighting edge of technology in those days, so did you have Gee?
GD: Yeah.
CB: And how did you feel about the use of Gee?
GD: Very good, only trouble was you only got it to about five degrees east.
CB: And you didn’t have GH in those days?
GD: No of course, pathfinders of course came in with H2S and Oboe. I mean the marking the PFM marking was good, yes.
CB: And you’d know the colour of the markers before you set off, would you?
GD: Yes, I mean basically you bombed on the reds.
CB: Right.
GD: Or if not the reds, the green back ups.
CB: Would there always be a master bomber hovering?
GD: No the master bomber, there was a master bomber on Peenemunde, Group Captain Searby, and he directed the er he would say, you know, ‘ignore so and so, or bomb so and so, stop, stop the creepback,’ or whatever.
CB: Was the creep a problem?
GD: Pardon?
CB: Was, was creep much of a problem on targets?
GD: Well it wasn’t providing you stuck to bombing the indicators that you were supposed to, but of course there were some crews you know, that er got a bit hesitant, and er just get rid of them quick and of course if you’ve got fires showing up, you might have your red and green markers, but then you might have fires back coming back, but they weren’t marked so er yeah, there were, there was a bit of creepback sometimes.
CB: Did they have to remark sometimes?
GD: Well I don’t know because you see, you were once you’d done your bombing run.
CB: Yes.
GD: You don’t know what was going on other than that, but we didn’t have any, we didn’t have any master bomber, we didn’t have any master bombers apart from Peenemunde. On er the only other time I was involved with a master bomber was er when we went to er, I think it was Kiel er with a Mosquito, we had a, we had a [looking through book] a special camera.
CB: On the Mosquito?
GD: On that particular night we had a special camera, and we had to er report the um weather conditions to the er master bomber
CB: Right.
GD: On that I don’t know when that was, ‘46 [looking through book], and yeah must have been the last, must have been probably the last one, yeah, we were hit that one, there we were hit in, on both nose cones on er Mosquitos.
CB: By flak?
GD: On a Berlin, yeah, flak hits on both spillers.
CB: Oh, on the spillers.
GD: Yes.
CB: So you were lucky not to lose the engines?
GD: Well yeah because if they’d hit the, if they’d have hit the glycol tanks, that would have been it, there wouldn’t have been any time hardly to -
CB: Was there a particularly vulnerable point on the Mosquito?
GD: No not really, only the engines, ‘cos liquid cooled, so if you got hit with a, if your glycol got punctured, then that was it.
CB: So, you did thirty ops on your first tour.
GD: Yes.
CB: How many did you do on Mosquitos?
GD: Fourteen.
CB: And what stopped that?
GD: The war ended.
CB: Right, now you’ve got a DFC, when was that awarded?
GD: After the completion of the tour on the Halifaxes.
CB: On the Halifaxes, your first tour, do you have the citation for that?
GD: Mm somewhere [laughs].
CB: Only I’m just wondering how they worded it you see?
GD: Oh haven’t got it that I know of, it could be somewhere amongst the debris up in the loft [laughs].
CB: So when you were commissioned was that expected or unexpected?
GD: Unexpected I think, mind you, I think most pilots got commissioned round about halfway through their tour, I mean it was quite a, I was just told that I’d been recommended and went up before the group captain and that was it, it came through.
CB: What did he say?
GD: I can’t remember.
CB: You’re a jolly good.
GD: Funnily enough the next time I met him, he was a Group Captain Hodson, and er when I was at Ismailia, for my sins, I was Tennis Officer [laughs], and er the Group Captain there was a chap called Fletcher, and he called me in one day and he said, ‘I’ve got the Air Vice Marshall coming over from 205 Group in Cairo to play tennis with me, so I want you to make sure everything is tickety boo.’ You know, we had a, we had a pro, a pro, a civilian tennis chap there and he said, I want of course the AOC turned up, I don’t know what he came in, whether he came in an Oxford or not, turned up and Group Captain Fletcher introduced me and it was the same Group Captain that interviewed me for my commission.
CB: Small world. So he said?
GD: He did look at me and he said, ‘I’ve got an idea we might have met before.’ I said, ‘yes sir,’ I said, ‘you interviewed me for my commission,’ ‘that’s it,’ he said, ’76 Squadron.’ Air Vice Marshall Hodson.
CB: Thinking of senior officers and operations, how often did Group Captains and even Wing Commanders go on ops?
GD: It’s funny you should say that, we lost two fairly quickly.
CB: Two which?
GD: Two Group Captains, two Station Commanders.
CB: Did you?
GD: The first one was um er I can’t think of this name, I think his name was er, he got bombed in fact I think there might have been three There was one when the squadron was at Driffield and Driffield was bombed and the station commander was killed.
CB: Early in the war?
GD: Would be, yeah.
CB: Battle of Britain?
GD: And er Group Captain Whittley went as second pilot to a chap called um Jock, it’s in the, it’s in the [unclear] book, oops.
CB: The cups gone over, have you got a cloth.
GD: Group Captain Whittley.
CB: This is the squadron history, is it?
GD: Yeah, see the dawn breaking.
CB: Right.
GD: Er [looking through book] Group Captain John Whittley 1576, yeah, Group Captain Garaway was the one that lost his life in the um he was er
CB: In the bombing raid?
GD: Linton, Linton Station Commander, Group Captain Garaway OBE was struck and killed by fragments from an anti-personnel bomb whilst leading a team to extinguish a serious incendiary blade er blaze, and then of course Whittley followed him. Ah yes, another one 76 [looking through book], yes he flew with er a chap called Jock Cary er and er four were killed, Group Captain Whittley, Pilot Officer David and Sergeants’ Davis and Strange evaded capture and then there was a Wilson, just wondered what happened to him. I think there were three Group Captains in 76 who were lost.
CB: Who were Station Commanders?
GD: Yes.
CB: Were they were allowed to fly, encouraged to fly or how did it work?
GD: They were not encouraged to fly really, they would only do one trip, a trip every now and again.
CB: Yes.
GD: You see even the squadron commanders didn’t. I mean the squadron commander squadron leader, he could probably take up to a year to do his tour because he might only fly once a month.
CB: The wing commander.
GD: And the wing commander.
CB: He’d be the wing commander, the squadron commander.
GD: No that was the flight commander, the squadron commander again, he would only fly er our um, our er squadron commander was a chap called Don Smith, oh what’s a name, a squadron commander that left a week, a fortnight before I joined Cheshire, he was at 76 at Linton and he’d just gone when I joined, yeah.
CB: He had an American wife who used to play the piano in the mess.
GD: Yes, yes.
CB: That came from an earlier interview. Right I think we’ve done extraordinarily well.
GD: That was the code name for um, sky marking, nearly all the er code names for marking were New Zealand, you had Paramata um, what else Paramata.
CB: Oh right.
GD: Paramater.
WT: Betemangui here and how did you and I understand the pathfinders went in which were hugely Mosquitos?
CB: They were Lancasters.
GD: They were both.
WT: And they dropped flares?
GD: Yes
WT: On the bombing area on the area?
GD: Known as target indicators.
WT: How long before you, the bombers, followed them in to bomb, how soon after the flares or whatever it was that were dropped, did the bombers actually come in?
GD: Well I can’t answer that right, because er when we, every trip that I went on the target was nearly always alight when we got there, it would only be the people that were actually in the very first wave that would that would know that.
WT: Right.
GD: I wouldn’t think it wouldn’t be long because er you see once the indicators had gone down, the ground people would know that that was going to be a raid so they would want to get the bombs dropping er fairly quickly.
WT: But I mean were they actually flares that were dropped so they’d burn out fairly quickly?
GD: Oh no, no, they kept alight for a while.
WT: And when you couldn’t see the ground you mentioned sky marking.
GD: Sky marking. Whanganui.
WT: How does that work?
GD: Well they were coloured lights in the sky that would hover, which is why sky marking wasn’t all that accurate because you see they -
CB: They would drift.
GD: They would drift, a ground marker.
WT: Don’t flares drift ground markers?
GD: Oh no, because they’d be actually on the ground, they’d be burning.
WT: Yes.
GD: On the ground
WT: No I meant, sorry I’m being a bit pedantic, but if you’ve got quite a strong wind, and okay, they would allow for that, but I mean, they aren’t going to get it right all the time, you could find that the flares have moved away from the target but therefore?
GD: But that would only happen before they hit the ground,
WT: Right.
GD: Wouldn’t it? If you were dropping a target indicator.
WT: Yes.
GD: It could move before it hit the ground but they, they would know the wind and they would that would be allowed for.
WT: So the accuracy of the pathfinders, for what I’m really getting to, who dropped the flares not only was it critical, but they were very accurate.
GD: Yes because don’t forget, they had what they called Oboe which was er direction where the lines crossed and er they um, Oboe was quite accurate and they would, they would drop their target indicator according to the grat[unclear]
CB: This is transmitters sending out a signal in a line that would then converge in the point where the bomb was to be dropped, that was in the later part of the war.
WT: Very good.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with George Dunn
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-08
Type
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Sound
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ADunnGC170308
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:34:14 audio recording
Description
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George Dunn DFC joined the Royal Air Force in June 1941 and initially trained as a Wireless Operator/Air Gunner, before training in Canada as a Pilot. He flew aircraft such as Avro Ansons and Airspeed Oxford.
He tells of his experiences as ‘second dickey’ on trips to Essen and Kiel, before joining No. 76 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse, flying Handley Page Halifaxes. He also spent time on 10 Squadron and was finally transferred to 608 Squadron based at Downham Market in Suffolk flying Mosquitos.
George tells of his trip to Malta, and flying Spitfires that were being renovated for the Greek Air Force.
George flew 30 operations flying Halifaxes and a further 14 flying the Mosquito.
After the war, George returned to his previous company, Pickfords, where he worked as a Branch Manager before retiring at the age of 60.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
10 Squadron
109 Squadron
608 Squadron
76 Squadron
Anson
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
ground crew
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
Master Bomber
memorial
mid-air collision
Mosquito
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
perception of bombing war
RAF Chipping Norton
RAF Downham Market
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
RAF Upper Heyford
Spitfire
target indicator
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/552/8816/AMaddockLyonR160321.2.mp3
a595d15f2a53dcbc9fb8c503f4160890
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Maddock-Lyon, Roy
R Maddock-Lyon
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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MaddockLyon, R
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Roy Maddock-Lyon (- 2023, 2205669 Royal Air Force), his log book, service material, silk escape map and an album. He served as a flight engineer with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne until he was shot down on his 18th operation over Denmark 14 February 1945. Two of his crew were killed but he evaded with the help of the Danish resistance.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy Maddock-Lyon and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2016-03-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Transcription
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CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and we are interviewing Roy Maddock-Lyon today which is the 21st of March 2016 at Lee House in Weedon near Aylesbury. And Roy was a flight engineer and he’s going to talk about his life and times. So, Roy how did it all start in your mind?
RML: Well when I was born I suppose. But yes, I was born. I was born more or less in the time of the Big Depression but my father continued, was working. He was an accountant and he’d served in the First World War. And from then on I went to Runcorn Grammar School. It was then called technical college but it became changed to a grammar school and I was educated there until the war broke out. And Runcorn was an evacuation town so all the young kids were evacuated to Blackpool. I was one of them. I didn’t like it there so I came home but my school up was at Blackpool so I went out to work and I took an engineering apprenticeship and I enjoyed that. And I wanted to be a chemist but there was no vacancies at ICI for a chemist apprentice so I went into engineering apprenticeship. That, I studied, got my Ordinary National and I started getting my Higher National but I’d, it had just developed that the RAF and I thought I’d like to join the RAF. I didn’t think of the army. In fact I didn’t think it was my sort of cup of tea. Neither was the navy. So I went in to the RAF but during that I had an interesting experience. I was with the Civil Service, as it was then called, and I was a messenger in the Civil Service. The role of the messenger you did one night a week and you were there in case of messages, an air raid, and you lost communication and then I had to know where to go. You know, the post office, the police and that. And the interesting case was because Liverpool had been badly bombed there was an organisation known as the Queen’s Messengers. Have you heard of it?
CB: No. Never.
RML: Well the Queen’s Messengers was a relief organisation run by the government and it was stationed in Birmingham and it was a fleet of coaches and lorries carrying relief to wherever there was a damaged area and it was called the Queen’s Messengers. And as the roads were all in blackout and the road signs had all been taken down the messengers had to know the area. So I had to go from the, well the relief convoy was coming up from Birmingham to go to Liverpool and I had to cycle to a place called Helsby outside Runcorn and to get in the front vehicle and guide it to Runcorn and then hand over to the next one because they knew the road and they went on. So it was an interesting exercise and not many people probably know about the Queen’s Messengers.
CB: No. No.
RML: And they was probably there for a couple of days and the next raid, where ever it was, they went off to there and it was a very good relief. So that was all I had to do was sit in the, in the front vehicle and put my bike in there and wait until they got to where I had to hand over and there was this continuous movement. There was about three or four Queen’s Messenger convoys going. All radiating from Birmingham. I think that’s something that could be developed you know because not many people, as you say, nobody knew about them and it was essential to get relief supplies because we carried medicine and doctors and things like that. And so after that I used to do one night a week and then I got a request calling up for an interview and they interviewed me for RAF ordinary and they said would I like to go into aircrew? And I said, ‘Of course I would.’ [laughs] And so they said, ‘Right. Well you’d better go home again,’ because they weren’t recruiting at that building for aircrew. So, I was then called up about a few weeks later. Had to go to Padgate and, where they assessed me for whatever. Pilot. Engineer. Gunner. And I passed with flight engineer and then I eventually was called up to go to Lord’s Cricket Ground and, where I had a fortnight’s equipping and getting into uniform. Inoculations and that. And that, once I passed that at Lord’s I was sent to [pause] yes, Sunderland. Just outside. In a place called Hetton le Hole and I did an amount of training there and then I went from there I went to Bridlington where I was, had other training including parachute dropping. How to get out and open a parachute and drop on the ground. How to fall and do the normal roll. And then I was sent home on leave. And after doing the square bashing and that at Bridlington I was then posted to St Athan where I did type engineering training and then I got type training. I couldn’t go into Lancasters because I was too short. You had to be five foot, over five foot six for an engineer. I don’t know why. But they offered me Flying Boats or the Halifax and so I took the Halifax and I did my type training on the Halifax and I passed that and then was allocated to a squadron. Oh no I wasn’t. I was sent to HCU and that’s where I eventually met my crew of five and then made it seven and whilst at Acaster Malbis I did commando training in case I was shot down and various other exercises and then I was squadroned. Yeah. No I wasn’t. I was sent, sent to HCU then to do my initial training. That was, they was using the very old Halifaxes which were flying coffins because they invariably crashed. So It was a mark ii. Mark i and Mark ii Halifax. I went on the Mark iii eventually and it was a good experience. I had one dust up with the police because I was cycling home. We’d gone out to a party and my navigator was on the cross bar and a policeman stopped me and that was not allowed. To have a crossbar. So, he took my name. I got called up and got prosecuted for that and the magistrate said had I got anything to say. I said, ‘Yes [time that blinking plod?] was in the air force. Not punishing us.’ ‘Right.’ He’d already given me a ten shilling fine. ‘Another ten shillings. [laughs] Have you anything more to say?’ I said, ‘No.’ Blinking — I said he should be in the army or the, yeah, instead of stopping — anyhow, so then I went. So that was my brush with the law. In fact, in the squadron they all thought it very funny. Including the CO. [I hope that bloke had] had some more disasters. Anyhow, I went to my squadron and I’ve written a book here on what I did including photographs. So you can borrow that.
CB: Thank you.
RML: I can get these back wont I?
CB: Yes. Absolutely.
RML: And there was lots of things. The Halifax was a good plane but as a — well fortunately I’d written to the Hercules who made the Bristols, who made the engines and they sent me a calculator how to measure your fuel consumption. So as a result, all the other engineers hadn’t got that. So as a result, I had a good fuel record.
CB: Oh.
RML: One raid I was on using that and we’d got hit with shrapnel and all and I’d had to do the necessary fuel change and we came back to the squadron and we said, have permission to land and we got a, we were damaged, and, ‘Can we have priority landing?’ ‘No, you can’t land here. Go to Carnaby.’ ‘No, we haven’t got enough fuel to go to Carnaby.’ ‘Well too bad. Go to Carnaby.’ And we turned from York on to Carnaby which is Bridlington and as we come in to land two engines cut out. We were just on the, we planted down on two engines. Out of fuel. Thinking I’d have a lot to say about that if it wasn’t recorded because we should have been able to land. But anyhow the two engines cut out and when we taxied around another one went. So, we lost three engines. It wasn’t, wasn’t funny and, you know, all the other planes were there and as we taxied around and we got nose to tail so we stopped our plane in front of another plane and were getting out and as we were getting out there was a heck of a noise and two planes farther back — they were doing the same. The engine of one went into the rear turret of another and just chewed the rear gunner up like spaghetti. It was terrible, and we were walking, you know, got our equipment back to the reception and we saw all this, you know, damage.
CB: Yeah. Frightening.
RML: If the pilot had kept the plane going straight it would have been ok. But no, he tried to accelerate to turn the plane away and that’s what happened.
CB: Dreadful.
RML: The engine, you know, the propeller just churned him up. It was a heck of a mess. It was a bit disheartening.
CB: I bet.
RML: But we, we had other raids to go on. And then one other raid. My pilot was a bit of devil. Having flown the Tiger and other, we came — we was out doing, we were training like Barnes Wallis wants. Low level flying. And we came over Bridlington beach and the holidaymakers dropped to the ground because they thought they was going to be cut up but we carried on from there over the Yorkshire Moors and I don’t know if you’ve been up that area.
CB: Not recently.
RML: Well they’ve got pylons there.
CB: Oh yes. Yeah.
RML: They’re quite high aren’t they?
CB: Yeah.
RML: Yeah. Well what do you do with a pilot that wants to go underneath the wires? At about fifty or a hundred feet. Which is what we did.
CB: Amazing.
RML: He had, he got a severe reprimand for that.
CB: Really.
RML: So, anyway, but yes we did low level. We was training for low level flying. You know a lot of people think that the Lancaster was the only group that could do low level flying. They weren’t. There was other squadrons that was capable of doing a low-level attack because they had to. There was lots of cases. And so when I, well I was eventually shot down. Done eighteen raids and on the eighteenth I was shot down in Denmark. It wasn’t very pleasant because it was February. It was a bit cold. So, when I landed I’d got the old fashioned flying boots which is a disaster because when my parachute opened my shoes decided to continue. You know the ones I mean. They were just sleeves –
CB: Fell off. Yeah.
RML: Oh, they went down so I landed in bare feet. When I didn’t, I looked around, blew my whistle and I couldn’t hear anything because I think I’d gone deaf, you know, with dropping from twenty thousand and so if anyone had blown their whistle I didn’t hear it. But I looked up and I could see there was a farmhouse there so I started walking in bare feet to go to the farmhouse and then I realised that going to the farmhouse I’d be leaving my trail because it was soft ground. So when I got to the farmhouse I walked, turned right at the farmhouse and walked down the road and I came to another farmhouse and it appears that the next day the Germans went to the farmhouse I’d been and there was nobody there. I wasn’t there. The farmer took me in and gave me ham and eggs and I’d got my escape kit and my escape money and I slept in his house that night and he was absolutely panic stricken because he’d got a young daughter and if the Germans had known I was there they, that would have been the end of their life. So anyhow the next morning when I got out of bed the milkman called and the woman was in tears apparently and she said she didn’t know what to do. She didn’t want to give me up but she was worried about her daughter. So, the milkman said, ‘Right. Put him in the hayloft,’ which is what I climbed up in to the hayloft. Burrowed down about two or three feet because the Germans, if they was looking for anybody they’d bayonet the holes to check. I was down deeper than that and at 6 o’clock at night when it was dark the milkman came and brought me some shoes. I take size seven and he took size ten or eleven [laughs]. Not funny. And so, I put those on. Went with him across the fields because he only lived about half a mile, a mile away and the house where I’d stayed the farmer there followed me with a rake levelling off the ground where my footprints had been and so that he was giving me cover and it turned out then this new bloke Johan Helms, he, it’s in the book, he thought, his wife got me clothes because I’d still got RAF uniform on. So, he got me some shirt and trousers, shoes and we went next morning. He said we’d got to get out quickly because there was a train coming and we had to get on the train. So he took me down. Instead of going down the road we went down field-ways because he knew the area, being a milkman. And we get to this station. I just forget the name of the place. [Toulouse?] that was the name of the town. And he — I’d got the money so I gave him my money. He got the railway ticket and to go on the train which we did but as we were waiting for the train there were a couple of SS officers come stalking up and they got on the train with me. In the same compartment. They were talking, yabbering to each other. They’d probably had a girl the night before and they weren’t interested in passengers on the train. So and the train was going from [Toulouse?] to Copenhagen but in Denmark they’ve got an underground system like London Underground and so, we got off at a place called Roskilde. Oh no. The SS officers got off at a place called Roskilde which was German headquarters and then we went on a little bit farther. A few miles. Ten, twenty miles and the train stopped again and we got off because it turned out that we, he put me on to, or we both got on to the Underground which was going around Copenhagen and so, we got on that. When it gets to Copenhagen the train which we’d been on was in the platform and the German troops were searching it and we were on another train and what they, we all thought, and I agree with that the Germans probably realised when they got off the train at Roskilde that what was sitting next to them was one of the RAF people that was escaping. So that was why the train was stopped and, but we didn’t need it. So, they never found me, and I went to a place called Charlottenlund which was, the owner of it was the warden of the equivalent of Kew gardens and it was called the [Forest Botanski Garden?] and this man, who was the brother of the milkman because he’d rung up his brother to say he’s got, got some nice chocolates and I was traded as a box of chocolates. And so, we got there and he er [pause] yes, his daughter, the owner didn’t want me around for obvious reasons so his daughter took me around the wooded area where the trees were and we were walking around there and suddenly two German soldiers come up and she put her arms around me and started kissing me. Not that it meant [laughs] and the Germans probably thought I was her boyfriend so they just walked on, and I was left, and I was then later that day handed over to Professor [Eyg?] I don’t know if his name is familiar. He was the leader of the Underground. The Danish Underground. So, he took me to a safe, a safe house where they took my identity, my photographs and gave me a false identity and, I’ve still got it here. And I just well yeah they gave me, and then again I became another box of chocolates because this group who interviewed me of Danish ladies handed me over to another bloke and his wife and I just went and I had a bath and had a good wash and a shave. And he took me for, he said, ‘I want to take you around Copenhagen in the morning,’ so he did and as we were going down one of the side streets there’s a German road block. So they were checking everybody for their identity. So there was a cinema next door there so we went into the cinema and saw some film which was — I don’t know what it was. And after about a half hour we came out and the road block had gone so we were free so he took me around Copenhagen, around Gestapo Headquarters and that was, and he didn’t tell me what he wanted me to see but he showed me what I could see and that was Gestapo Headquarters and also there was doing, the Germans were doing something. Do you know what Copenhagen looks like?
CB: I’ve been to Copenhagen. Yes.
RML: Well there’s four lakes coming down and at the end of the fourth one is Shell House and what they were doing they was putting trees down next to the lakes and he said, ‘Take a note of that,’ and I just did that. Apparently, when I got back, it’s skipping the order to tell this bit, Air Ministry made one terrific blunder because they were planning a Gestapo Headquarters raid which went a complete success but a disaster because one of the pilots on the Mosquito, I don’t know if you know it, missed the, went down the wrong lane and hit the school.
CB: I know about that.
RML: And wasn’t supposed to
CB: Right.
RML: Because I’d gone back to tell them that the Germans expected it and they hit the school because the pilot, that one pilot had gone sick when I did the briefing and he didn’t know about the alteration and as a result he went down what he was been told, trained for, which was the wrong direction and that was how a whole load of school children were killed.
CB: Yeah. Very tragic.
RML: About a hundred children. More. Killed because of a pilot who didn’t go to the training. Anyhow, I felt very angry to say the least. But because the Gestapo headquarters, they hit it as they wanted to. I don’t know if you remember what they did. They hit the ground floor with the rockets.
CB: Yeah.
RML: And all the Gestapo and SS who were on the ground floor were killed and all the Danish government officers who had been put on the top floor escaped. It was a wonderful success that. And anyhow eventually they decided that I had to get out because I’d got, I didn’t know I’d got this information because for obvious reasons they didn’t tell me. But they got me out and as I said it was February and they put me on a ship that was leaving Copenhagen that night to go to Bornholm and on to Germany and what it was doing it was taking German troops back to Germany. So I had to be on that boat before the German troops came on so and so they put me on the outside of the life boat which was just, the water was down there and when the ship started to sail I had to crawl from outside the lifeboat to the inside of the lifeboat. The lifeboat was sitting on the deck and they put the searchlight on and they couldn’t see me because I was on the inside now. Beforehand when they were searching the ship I was on the outside. And eventually when it had gone out of the port they came and dragged me because I was frozen. Very cold. And they took me down to the captain’s cabin and he was a double agent because as he pointed out to me on the last voyage he found a German revolver and he took it down to them and said, ‘Look. You must have left this.’ And he said it may have been a trick. But anyhow he was, he said, ‘I’ll have to leave you now.’ But he gave me [egg and ham?] lots of food and I was eating that all night and he was entertaining the Germans down below. And after the war I had to go to Denmark to identify that he had actually been a double agent.
CB: Yeah.
RML: Because he was under, the Danish people thought he’d been a traitor. So anyhow, I get off the boat and the Air Ministry or the government had sent somebody down from Stockholm because they were expecting me. They got a message across to say that I was on the boat and the Danes, the escape route — I think — I forget the name of the route, but it had to be closed down because it had been compromised but it was too risky not to take the chance because they had to get me back to Stockholm to Air Ministry urgently. So, the Danes took a terrific risk in getting me on a route which had been blown because the Germans insisted on identities of people going on. It’s in this book it’s described and so they got me off and it was and then in the morning as I say the Air Ministry, the air attaché had come down from Stockholm, met me, took me to his flat and I had a wash and a shave and one memorial episode. He said, and it was night time now, he said I’m going to give you a shock. I said, ‘Well what?’ He went to the window and drew the curtains back and I’ve never seen anything as — you can imagine when we’d had a blackout for four years. Nothing. No light. And Malmo, where we’d landed, was just like Piccadilly Circus. You — the lights were terrific. It was mind blowing. And so that was a shock to me. He then took me to the station and he didn’t come with me. I don’t know why but he put me on the train to Stockholm and I’d only been on, it was a sleeper, night sleeper. I’d only been on the ship er on the train about ten minutes and somebody else came to get in the top bunk and he spoke to me. He said something in German. ‘You’re not German.’ ‘No.’ ‘What are you? American?’ ‘No.’ ‘British?’ Well you couldn’t argue with the fact I could only speak blinking British, so he said, ‘Don’t worry. I’m not going to give you up.’ He said, ‘I’m the German courier from Berlin and I’m going to the German Embassy.’ It’s nice that they have got some people that’s friendly. And so, we sat there and he said that Germany wasn’t so, this was February ‘45. Getting towards the end. And we had a little chat. In the morning he shook me out of sleep and he said, ‘Where are you going to now? British Embassy?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘I’ll get you a taxi.’ So, he got me a taxi, ordered, told him to take me to the British Embassy. This was a German courier. And I got to the German Embassy, er British Embassy and it was fine. So I’m there and then one of the staff at the Embassy said, ‘Do you smoke?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Here’s two hundred gold flakes from the British Red Cross.’ I said, ‘Oh thank you.’ So, I got those and I got sent to a hotel. The Grand Hotel in Stockholm which is quite a good one. It’s a big one. It’s like The Savoy. They put me in and when I’m, I decide to go out and I’d got some cigarettes in my pocket and I was in plain clothes now because they’d taken me to like Harrods or somewhere where they equipped me with a suit, tie, shirt, everything and so, and shoes, everything. I’d got everything I needed. So, I went downstairs and was sitting outside and a Swedish girl came up to me, a blonde and said, ‘Have you got a cigarette?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Can I have one?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Ok.’ I was naïve. Stupid little boy. So she said, ‘You haven’t got a spare packet have you?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Oh, I’ll see you in a minute.’ ‘I thought that’s the worst, you know, she’s taken my cigarettes and gone and buggered off. About ten minutes later she came back and said ‘It’s all fixed.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘The room.’ The packet of cigarettes was getting you a room for the night. So anyhow to be honest it didn’t materialise. So, and so I didn’t take her up on her offer. I was only in Stockholm two or three nights, so I went to the Embassy and it was interesting. The air attaché had got two daughters...
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Roy Maddock-Lyon
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-21
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMaddockLyonR160321
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Denmark
Great Britain
Sweden
Denmark--Copenhagen
England--Yorkshire
Sweden--Stockholm
Description
An account of the resource
Roy Maddock-Lyon was born in Cheshire and when his school was evacuated at the start of the war he began an engineering apprenticeship. He was a part of the Queen’s Messengers, a relief organisation that travelled to bombed cities to take emergency medical and other supplies. He later volunteered for the Royal Air Force and was selected as a flight engineer. When he joined his squadron, he recalls a time when they were refused emergency landing at an airfield and had to fly on to RAF Carnaby. He then witnessed a tragic accident on the airfield. He was shot down over Denmark and evaded to Sweden with the aid of the Danish resistance. He discusses the operation to bomb the Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen.
The interview is incomplete and ends abruptly.
Temporal Coverage
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1945-02
1945-03-21
Format
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00:40:07 audio recording
10 Squadron
aircrew
evacuation
evading
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
home front
RAF Carnaby
RAF Melbourne
recruitment
Resistance
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/847/10843/PGurneyDAE1602.1.jpg
213c9d7ea12cb029557e2d41b837f49d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/847/10843/AGurneyDAE160128.2.mp3
f4cc013d1e7647ff367ff12d43479fde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gurney, Derek
Derek Alec Edwards Gurney
D A E Gurney
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Derek Gurney (1925 - 2018, 31006156 Royal Air Force) and two photographs. He served as a Halifax air gunner on 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Derek Gurney and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gurney, DAE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. I’m in Hemel Hempstead. My name is Chris Brockbank and it’s the 28th of January 2016. And I’m with Derek Gurney and his partner Barbara. And he’s just about to start talking about his experiences from the earliest days through the RAF and afterwards. Derek. Tell me where your family came from and your earliest recollections please.
DG: Good afternoon everybody. I don’t know what to say really but anyway I was born in Hemel Hempstead and I was the eldest of six. And we was over [unclear] one day and funny thing. The R101 come over.
CB: The airship.
DG: A massive thing. Anyway, that was with my granny and of course I was living in Hemel Hempstead. In Apsley. It was [pause] what was it? C of England School and one day the mistress asked for any volunteers in the church in Apsley. Apsley Church. So we were in Apsley Church singing in the carol. Carols. You know. That was two nights during the week and three days Sundays. Keep us quiet. Then —
CB: So, where were you at school?
DG: I was at school in Apsley. Apsley Church. Apsley Church School.
CB: Church School.
DG: That’s it.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
DG: Then come the Easter time they moved the school up to Crabtree Lane. A brand new school. And I was only up there for three months and I started work. I got a job in the printing in Apsley. Apsley Dickerson’s School. And after eighteen months I was getting fed up because the war had started so I wanted to get in engineering. Anyway, I was lucky enough to get a job at De Havilland’s building the Mosquitoes. Marvellous machine. Then come eighteen I had to sign on. Sign my medical for joining up. Anyway, I had to go back there a second time because I had my leg in plaster. Jumped off the scaffolding off De Havilland’s and broke my ankle. Anyway, I was called up December the 20th 194 —
CB: ‘4.
DG: ‘3.
CB: ‘3.
DG: 1943, joined up. We had to go to the St John’s Wood. ACRC. Have new clothes. Having new clothes there. Get your medicals, did PT, uniforms given to us. We had to do swimming, partly drill. Then we were there. We had to move on to Initial Training Wing, Bridlington. That was more [pause] more towards the air force. We had to go to Flamborough Head for our rifle shooting on the range and do the Morse code from Flamborough Head to the beach at Bridlington. From there we come home ready for the next posting which was Bridgnorth. Elementary Gunnery School doing more sitings and pyrotechnics. Run through the guns backwards and forwards. Know how to take the gun to pieces. Sent home again. Right. The next journey was up to Inverness. Gunnery School flying the Ansons. Come all the way and generate, bring your training right up to scratch. Do your dinghy drills, your swimming, your siting. In siting you were in two hangars during the week with the curved screen checking your training of the guns on to film. Coming around with a camera. And there we was on the Ansons. You’d go along the Moray Firth shooting. You’d got to be briefed when you landed. If you saw anything practice for when you go on the [pause] operations anyway. You could see Invergordon across the bay. And there was an Anson err a Dakota down with a troop ship down there. We didn’t know what that was then. But when the war finished I found out it was Montgomery checking the invasion procedure. Well, passed the — you get your brevet and you’re sent home again. Go back. Go backing up to Lossiemouth. Long old ride standing up in the corridor. And we were there and you were there for crewing up. We were all put in a, in a room. You join up. Anyway, we, had a pilot and he was an instructor but he was only one obviously wanted to get into more flying. Mitchells or Mosquitoes. But anyway, in the end he got us. Six of us. No. No engineer come along. So, we do our training with the old Wellington bombers. Enough to put you off. One Wellington blew up and there was another one with its wing off. Fell off. And we went down to see that after we’d been flying ourselves. Went down and had a look. Walked along the coast and there was a body there. We had to go and tell the rescue people then run as quick as we could to the pub because they closed at nine in Scotland. Anyway, go back. Then home. Home. Another posting to [pause] Con Unit.
CB: The Operational Conversion Unit or the Heavy Conversion Unit?
DG: Heavy Conversion Unit.
CB: Yeah. Which was where?
DG: 1652. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. That —
DG: Anyway —
CB: That was at Marston Moor.
DG: Marston Moor. That’s it. Marston Moor. So, we go down to the airfield. There’s a flight lieutenant there going to show our pilot how to fly a Halifax. [unclear] They knew each other. Our pilot taught this bloke how to fly Tiger Moths. So, that was a good start. So, coming through Conversion Unit we was on the Merlin engines. We got through that. Anyway, before we could change on to the squadrons they changed our engines so we had to do the whole procedure again on the Hercules. So that put us right back. Plus a bit of snow. Right. That brings us right up to November. So, we said, ‘Well, we’ve been here six months. Let’s, let’s see Christmas then go back on the squadron.’ So, right. So they let us go on the Con Unit until after Christmas. Anyway, we go to join 10 Squadron, Melbourne. Right next to Elvington. Then we said, ‘Right. We want leave.’ And they said, ‘Well do a couple of ops first.’ So, we had to run through with them being checked out with the others. How the pilot was going with his crew and get passed out by then. So, we’d done a couple of ops. They were in the paper they were. Done a couple of ops and then done our leave. And carried on then doing our time which I’ve got all written down in the book there.
CB: Ok.
DG: My different flights. And anyway we were doing day. Day bombing. And one nasty one was Bayreuth. Terrific one that was. Anyway, we were lucky. That was daylight and we didn’t see anything. Anyway, I think, no and the very last one we could feel something was getting better and we had this setting for Heligoland. Heligoland. It didn’t come off that night. They changed it that night. Flew the next. The next night. The next day rather. It was a daylight trip. Then sent — got another leave and we come back. They’d just been to the other one. Wangerooge. Wangerooge — that was the last trip of the war over our way. And, right, so all we were doing then was putting, putting bombs on the machines and dropping in The Wash. Anyway, we went to get on to the aeroplane that day and they said, ‘You’re going home.’ ‘Let us go do it.’ ‘No. You’ve got to go home now.’ So that was it. They got our kit together, signed out and sent home you know. The crew comes to see us off the station and they sent us home. Right then. Waiting. In the War Office meant give us something so we was called up, up to Lissett to pick a ground trade. Right. Pick a ground trade. Get out the gates. So, I put in for driving. Right. Got the next order. Got to report up to Blackpool. I forget the name. So, driving school up near Blackpool. In training for driving. Two weeks schooling in the British School of Motoring. Small. Small fifteen hundred weights, fifteen tonners, heavy goods, arctics. Right. Pass out. You’ve got to pass out. Sent home for another posting. The next posting [unclear] again. Blackpool again. Get up there. You’re going to Egypt. You take your kit off. Load of kit. Small kit bag. Sent there on a, on board the train. Night train. Funny thing it even stopped in Apsley. I could see my house but being on a troop train going to London. We were sent to North Weald. That’s right. Up there we were waiting. Nothing going to fly us from North Weald. We were just waiting there to catch an aeroplane which was going to be from Devon. Merryfield. They said, well when we were at North Weald they said, ‘Right. Catch the 12 o’clock train from Waterloo. We’ll trust you to get down to Merryfield. You’re going to fly off at 2 o’clock in the morning.’ At 2 o’clock in the morning we jumped on the Liberator. We tried to get two or three drinks but only got one. They had one drink and filled the water bottle with cider. Flew off. Flew off towards India. And after, what was it [pause] Castel Benito. We couldn’t get in to that next place because there’s a sandstorm. That’s further on. Got as far as [pause] what was it? Palestine.
CB: Aqir.
DG: What was that place? That big place in Palestine. Big place.
CB: Aqir.
DG: No. No. The big place where the troops were.
[pause]
CB: Don’t know.
DG: [pause] Of course the interesting bit I met there.
CB: Who did you meet there? Who did you meet there?
DG: The squadron leader from Lossie.
CB: What was he doing?
DG: He was flying a Harrow.
CB: Oh.
DG: Yeah. Good bit to put in.
CB: Yeah. Great aeroplane of the 1930s. 20s.
DG: Well, when I was at school I used to cycle round [unclear] and see them.
CB: Oh, did you? Yeah.
DG: And the Hampdens on the ground.
CB: Yeah.
DG: I was on the bridge.
CB: Right.
DG: What’s that place?
CB: It’ll come back to you in a minute. Ok. So where do you go next?
DG: Right. We got away from Middle East. The Middle East there. We were going to fly towards India so the next stop was Sargodha. Just a two hour fuel up. Carry on to Karachi. Arrived at Karachi. It was dreadfully hot. Very hot. I could hardly move. Three days there on my back waiting for the aeroplane to take us to Poona. Anyway, the aeroplane was a Dakota. Funny thing. It was the old squadron boys were flying so I knew the crew that were going down to Poona. We get down to Poona and I went in to see the CO and asked if I could get a posting here. He said yeah. Yeah. But no. That didn’t work out in the end. And we were sent to Worli the training camp. There we used to have to get up four in the morning to wait for our posting to our destination where we were going to work. Anyway, we were sent to — stop. Stop. Sent to [pause] oh blow me. The one place I forget the name. [pause] I had it yesterday. Five letters.
CB: Well, we’ll come back to it. It wasn’t Delhi.
DG: Tilda. Right. Tilda. Went to Tilda and nobody there. Nobody there. So, we wait for the next train. It took us to Bilaspur. We rung up from the station to the station to get transport. Anyway, come, come and picked us up. They thought it was big load of drivers. They’d come from their work from Delhi. That’s what we were going to join with these sort of people. Anyway, we get to Bilaspur camp. Got into the camp and to our billets. And there we are. Collecting vehicles from different airfields. It was our job to clean them up. Make them fit to be put on the road and take them up to Delhi. Delhi. Which is quite a long way between [Arpora?] Gwalia. Agra. Jhansi. Up. The road up till we get to Delhi. Palham. Is it? Palham. That’s it. Go up there and get rid of the vehicles. Get organised coming down. That’s it. We were at Delhi now.
CB: Right.
DG: Delhi. Get all the vehicles off. Get our train tickets. Go back to [pause] to Bilaspur. That’s going back to Bilaspur. Back to the grind. [pause] At Bilaspur we were there out in the wilds you know. Just mud huts and poor farmers. They didn’t wear feet. Ate with their fingers. There anyway we, he wanted somebody to go. Go to do a trip to Calcutta. And of course us three new, new people, we were given the job. We were sent to Calcutta by train. Pick up these three vehicles and bring them across to Calcutta. Four hundred miles across country. No roads. So we were sent up the Grand Trunk Road and around. Fifteen hundred miles. It’s a long old trip. Took us about a week. And we were driving and one of the, one of the lorries got a bit weak in the motor so we chained them all together. Three together. More, more movement. And then we stopped later on. Smethy said, ‘It’s getting dark here.’ So, ‘No. It’s not too bad.’ Well, it was dark but he’d still got his sunglasses on so that was it. Carried on. Get back ok. Alright. We got back [pause] back. Still collecting vehicles from different places. Wash them down [laughs] I used to have wash them down. They gave me the pump. The Scammel water pump. This Scammel water pump they made for farming. So, being a farmer I had to be awake didn’t I? Sometimes. Anyway, we had a fire. A hut fire. Right. Put that there. Used that. Too much water on so we had big one with a load of water on. Put it in a pit. Filled that up and go back to the fire and put that out. Right. Then we were sent, sent to a posting to 329 MU Calcutta. We get there and we were on a different system. You were picking these vehicles up and taking them to Delhi but some of them were in, still in their cases so we had to put them on the railway. Cases. Anyway, the crane got stuck one day. We tried to pull it out with two Matador diesel lorries but that wouldn’t work so we had to tie it to the train to pull it out. That done the trick. There’s a picture of me in the picture swinging from the crane. Anyway, off, off to Delhi. You form up. A hundred and twenty vehicles. Who’s driving? Who’s leading? Me. We were off. We’re off and funny thing we got an officer that was sent down from Delhi to be in charge of us. And he was in charge. It was Ron from Luton. Anyway, goes on and we stop half way. And there’s a picture of him. Poor Don. I’ll tell you the story later. Carried on up to Delhi. Had a puncture. Had a puncture. Fifty miles out from Delhi. No spares. So, I had to wait. Wait a couple of hours. We tried filling the tyre with, with straw. That got us another ten miles, maybe twenty. Didn’t it? Anyway, he comes along and picked us up. It was ok. We were at Delhi waiting to come home then. Anyway, this Ron, he picks us up for a flight home. So, lovely. 4 o’clock in the morning. Right. We have to go down to Delhi town, be weighed, catch the plane and sent back. Picked up at Dum Dum. Back to work at [310?] MU. Right. [310] MU. We done most of their work. We ended up at Dum Dum airfield. And we, we were just moving around, taking the trucks down to the scrapheap and doing different jobs. I was on the mail. Taking the mail down to, to Calcutta. And taking people on their day off into Delhi. Into Calcutta rather. We had to drive through the village, stopping. No stopping. It’s too dangerous. Right. That’s it. That’s it. That’s all we were doing. Waiting then. Waiting for our posting home. I’d been offered a trip by the Navy but they wouldn’t let me go. All the papers were in Bombay so had to wait for the papers. That’s it. Get back to Worli. Waiting for the, waiting for the drive home. Big boat. Empress of Scotland. Used to be the Empress of Japan. And funny thing they give me the job of looking after the people when they come on the boat and took them all around. Funny old job. Nothing really. Anyway, two weeks. Two weeks on the boat. Get home to Liverpool. In the middle of, middle of the bay there. Waited till the tide was right. Got home. Right. Up, up to Blackpool again for demob. What the place was. What’s the place now? [unclear] town just north of Preston.
CB: Lytham St Annes. Morecambe.
DG: Yeah. Put Lytham.
CB: Ok.
DG: But at Lytham St Annes we were demobbed. I was, I had an overcoat put on. I’d come from the hot place so the other people from England had a raincoat and they told me how [laughs] That’s it. Sent home. Got home. Got home about 8 o’clock at night, I think. Got home. We still going on?
CB: So, when you [pause] We can have a break. We’ll have a break now.
[recording paused]
DG: That’s off.
CB: Hang on. So, Derek just tell us what happened when you finished gunnery school and you got to the OTU. Then people, gunners, elected to be the tail gunner or the mid-upper. How did you become the mid-upper and how did you feel about it?
DG: I felt, ‘Right. If we have a direct hit the turret goes off at the back and you can get away with it.’ You’re dead in the middle.
CB: Right.
DG: But then once you’ve been flying a while. Right. You’re either, the aeroplanes and there all missing or missing there. They’re going to come into the middle one of the ways. But it’s funny that most of the gunners got it because they used to finish up in the back didn’t they? But in the Halifax you got four machine guns but you haven’t got so much ammo.
CB: Oh. Four machine guns in the mid-upper.
DG: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DG: And you haven’t got the deflector like Lanc.
CB: No.
DG: The wheel. We’d got a backlight interference.
CB: Yes.
DG: So, we can come straight through. Anyway, I I fired over the top of the tailplane once one day and said, ‘Are you alright?’ [laughs] Tom. Tom. ‘Are you alright, Tom?’ I thought I’d shot the rear gunner.
CB: So, did some people shoot the aircraft from mid-upper? Did they damage the plane?
DG: No. No. No.
CB: Because the deflector worked.
DG: I think there’s an aerial that, you used to get that down sometimes.
CB: Yeah. Get rid of that. Yeah. So once you got into the job why did you like being a mid-upper gunner?
DG: Well, for my own satisfaction. I knew what everybody, everything — I would have been different in the back. You’re cut off from the rest. You just, just got that. I felt better. I used to ask for bank and search because going underneath. Bank and search. Go one way. Just before the target so there’s nothing sitting underneath us.
CB: Right.
DG: Ok.
CB: So what you’re talking about is you say to the pilot you want him to bank the plane so you can look underneath to see if there’s anything shadowing you. Is that right? So, did you do that each, each raid?
DG: Yeah. But not the daylights [laughs]
CB: No.
DG: You could see them coming in couldn’t you?
CB: Yeah.
DG: Anyway, that Heligoland trip. Heligoland I think. I saw a 163 go over. Way up.
CB: That’s the rocket plane.
DG: Yeah. He went to the back, see. Wasn’t coming down in the middle was he?
CB: No.
DG: He went to the back.
CB: And what did he do?
DG: [laughs] Said good luck to him.
CB: No. No What did he do?
DG: I don’t know. It was too far back isn’t it?
CB: Right.
DG: About four or five miles aren’t they?
CB: Right. Ok.
DG: You was on Lancs, were you?
CB: No. No. I was after the war. So —
DG: Oh, blow me. Yeah.
CB: So, so the question really is with the 162 what did you think it was going to do to you?
DG: 163 isn’t it?
CB: 163 I mean. Yeah.
DG: Oh, find the straggler at the back and have him.
CB: Right.
DG: Once a straggler is on his own because he only wants one lot of bullets after him.
CB: Right.
DG: And he was going to come straight through isn’t he?
CB: Because he’s gliding anyway. Yeah. Ok.
DG: I’m trying to think. Just south of Blackpool.
CB: So, just, just carrying on with being in this turret. The gunners that — what is the role of the gunners and how did you manage your situation? So what did you shoot at?
DG: Nothing.
CB: Right. Why didn’t you shoot at anything?
DG: You could have given the game away.
CB: Right.
DG: Where you are.
CB: Right.
DG: You give the game away and somebody over there says, ‘Oh he’s over here.’
CB: Yeah.
DG: ‘Over there.’
CB: Yeah. Because you’re talking about in the dark aren’t you?
DG: Oh yeah.
CB: Because in the daylight you can’t give the game away.
DG: In daylight you just — that one we saw. I saw one when I was on the ground at Inverness. I was going on guard duty or something.
CB: Yeah.
DG: And I saw it go right over. It was a 410 going back to Norway see. Well, if you think of it Loch Ness. Straight up to Norway. So, he’d done a reconnaissance.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Over the sea.
CB: Yeah.
DG: And gone back to report the boats.
CB: This is a Messerschmitt 410 you’re talking about.
DG: 410. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
DG: He was way high though.
CB: Yeah. So what I’m getting at is what was the policy for gunners when enemy aircraft were around.
DG: If it come too near you shoot at them.
CB: Right.
DG: As I say, ‘Corkscrew go,’ [unclear] And of course he’s got to keep — you know about the gunnery sighting in the back? You’ve got to pick up the different points when you’re doing the corkscrew.
CB: Right. So just describe who calls the corkscrew?
DG: The one that seen him.
CB: Ok. Right. So it’s you or the tail gunner.
DG: Yeah. Me or the tail gunner.
CB: Ok.
DG: Yeah. I say, ‘Give me a dive and search.’ So we’d go.
CB: Yeah. So —
DG: Right. I said, you know we only need to go a little way, ‘Ok. Ok. Pull up.’
CB: Just talk us —
DG: Don’t muck about.
CB: Talk us through the corkscrew. So, you see something. How, how does it work?
DG: He’s something, and he’s watching it and if he gets rid of it and keeps quiet the German that’s attacking you —
CB: Yeah.
DG: He’s got so he’s buzzing off somewhere else.
CB: Yes.
DG: They can see him.
CB: Yeah.
DG: They think they can see him see.
CB: Yeah.
DG: So he’s going to find someone else.
CB: Yes.
DG: Going out over here.
CB: But just let me take you back. So you can see the German aircraft.
DG: No. No. You can — I saw the reflection of some anti-aircraft —
CB: Oh.
DG: Or something. I could see, could see the pipes going up.
CB: Right.
DG: It was only from there up to the top.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Diving starboard go.
CB: Right. So you, you get a visual of some kind.
DG: Yeah.
CB: What do you tell the pilot?
DG: Tell him to dive straight away.
CB: Ok. Left or right?
DG: Starboard.
CB: Always.
DG: Right.
CB: Starboard. Right. Ok. And so he pulls it over to the starboard side.
DG: Yeah and he’s diving down.
CB: What does he do? How long does he stay at that position?
DG: Until he could resume course.
CB: Right. But he pulls it around.
DG: Yeah. You tell him to pull out.
CB: So how far does he go down? He pulls out when you tell him.
DG: Well, as soon as I can. As soon as I —
CB: Yeah. Ok.
DG: I mean to say he’s gone over the top.
CB: Right.
DG: He might fly somewhere else and try to come back to you.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Right. So —
DG: And that dive I put when we nearly had that. Our own kite nearly — I can still see it now. Just the top of the ceiling here.
CB: So you’re —
DG: I can still see it.
CB: You’re flying along and another Halifax — it’s approaching.
DG: Yeah. It comes in.
CB: From the side was it?
DG: He’s coming in.
CB: Or behind.
DG: But then you’re going on. You’ve still got your eyes going and — dive dive. Straight away.
CB: Yeah. But was it coming in from behind or what?
DG: Straight away. Straight across the front.
CB: Oh right.
DG: Just on the front of us. We’d have gone, smashed right into it.
CB: So the pilot reacted really quickly.
DG: ZA. ZA D. D-Dog. And if you ever meet anybody from 10 Squadron ask them about D-Dog.
CB: Was it one of your aircraft?
DG: Yeah. ZA. ZA’s. ZA squadron. I think they went onto Brize Norton with ZAs.
CB: So, you weren’t able to talk to him afterwards.
DG: No. At debriefing —
CB: Yeah.
DG: You see. One of our own. I suppose they’ve all got it down somewhere. It’s all written down in somebody’s history.
CB: Ok. Now change. Going back to the OTU.
DG: Yeah.
CB: You arrived at the OTU. How did you do the crewing up? What was the process?
DG: You were into one room.
CB: Yeah.
DG: You know.
CB: Was it a room a hangar? Was it a room or was it a hangar?
DG: Just a room I think.
CB: Ok.
DG: Just a room.
CB: And how did you? What was the process for crewing up?
DG: Well, just crewing up and asking different people. We had the pilot and, ‘Do you want a couple of gunners?’ And, you know, ‘Ok,’ he said. George. Ernie George. Ernie George. That’s his name. Ernie George. The pilot. The pilot’s crew’s, the crew’s in the book. The crew’s name.
CB: So, who made the decision on the crew?
DG: Well, we just, the navigator gets to him to say hello straight away you know. Of course he’s only one officer. You see we were all non-commissioned and of course once he’d done a couple of ops he’s given the FO straight away.
CB: So the crew joins up.
DG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And how well did the crew get on?
DG: Marvellous. Marvellous. Well, were you in a bomber crew at all?
CB: No.
DG: No. It’s different. It’s different. Not the same language.
CB: So, so when you then went to the HCU you got an engineer. So —
DG: Well, you were all in the same billet see.
CB: Yeah. But you got an engineer at the HCU because —
DG: We had an engineer. A Scotsman.
CB: How did you get a hold of him?
DG: Marvellous.
CB: No. No. How did you get crewed?
DG: He was the oldest one of the lot.
CB: How did you get hold of him? How was he, how did he join the crew? Was he selected or was he just told to join you?
DG: I don’t know. I don’t know. He might have been like us. Looking for a pilot. Nothing else to do with the rest of the crew. It’s the pilot.
CB: Right.
DG: You might say we’re the pilot you know.
CB: Yeah. So that’s what I’m getting at really. In the initial crewing up it’s the pilot who makes the decision is it?
DG: Yeah.
CB: Is it?
DG: Yeah. He might have already got, talked to somebody see.
CB: Yeah. Right.
DG: But that’s what you all missed, didn’t you?
CB: Ok.
DG: Were you flying on the big stuff?
CB: No. On fighters.
DG: So, so —
CB: Oh right. You was all up the bill then.
DG: On the practical, well on the practical side the pilot is making the decision of who’s in the crew but is it because you go to the pilot and ask him and say to him we want a pilot?
CB: You ask one pilot. He said —
DG: Or he comes over to you.
CB: ‘I’ve got gunners,’ you know.
DG: Yeah.
CB: So go to another pilot.
DG: Ok. Right.
CB: And then the engineer joins. So the crew at the HCU worked really well.
DG: Yeah. Everything. Yeah. You’ve got to. That’s why they come up and check. Check your crew. The CO or somebody.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Comes and checks you with a normal flight.
CB: Yeah.
DG: And we were told we was a marvellous crew.
CB: Good.
DG: Well, for one trip we missed it because I think I said to Bob we’d got our engine’s running. I said, ‘I can see oil coming off the trailing edge.’ He couldn’t fix it.
CB: Right.
DG: So we missed that trip.
CB: Right.
DG: And you missed that trip you’re lost.
CB: Yeah.
DG: You was on your own.
CB: Of course.
DG: You wished you’d gone but you could be dead.
CB: Yeah.
DG: It’s funny.
CB: Yeah, because you wanted to go.
DG: A funny feeling.
CB: Everybody else went.
DG: Yeah. Your group.
CB: Yeah. And what was the relationship with the ground crew?
DG: Well, we were the new people on the squadron. We used to get different ones, but I mean to say it’s not easy. They still, they tended the steel. With Weppy I don’t know if he’s a navigator or what. He’s, he used to make them laugh. He, he got a story in that squadron book. It’s all at the back.
CB: Right. So what —
DG: I can tell you about it. It’ll give you a good laugh.
CB: We’ll, look in the squadron book because that’s really helpful. Thank you. So, I’m just trying to establish how the air crew got on with the ground crew.
DG: Oh marvellous. I didn’t try to eat all my stuff in case we got shot down coming through. So, I used to give my chocolate to the ground crew.
CB: When you got back.
DG: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Or whatever we got.
CB: Ok. And what was the ground crew’s attitude towards your aircraft?
DG: Oh marvellous. They knew. They knew we were doing a rough old job. The people that are off probably on a non-compatible squadron because they used to come and see you off as well.
CB: Oh they did. Right.
DG: Yeah. In a bomber, bomber place.
CB: And talking about seeing you off what relationship did the crew have with the WAAFs?
DG: Well the most thing really was the getting in to town and having a good old drink but sometimes perhaps there was the dance.
CB: Just as the crew. Yeah.
DG: A dance on the squadron where you just used to dance and that was it. You danced with her, you danced with that one. Danced around.
CB: Sure.
DG: We were at a dance on the squadron one night [laughs] and the wireless op could be a bit mad. He went and bit the COs tie off. Where’s my, where’s my crown? I haven’t got my crown yet. [laughs] He bit the CO’s tie off.
CB: So, he didn’t get a crown.
DG: No. A dance. And another thing just before Christmas we had, no, no after Christmas. No, no, it was on the squadron. We were supposed to be going somewhere. They were going to move it and they didn’t in the end. And the rear gunner smashed the window in the WAAFs depot. You know, where they had the dance. Their food. The place where they had the food I think. He smashed the window. So the w/op goes and does it. Go to hospital. He’d got this great big bandage on. And he used to, didn’t used to cut his hair. So he always got this long hair. Addy Asquith. He got this long hair. We said, ‘Right. We’re going to get him. Get him when he comes through the gate.’ Up the road in the Nissen hut, ‘Let him get through the gate.’ He went through the gate on the bike.
Other: I haven’t heard half of this.
DG: And another thing you know when I was saying about the jam jar in the working man’s place yeah you got a jam jar. All used to go for a cup of tea, a glass [unclear] someone goes and puts the tin can over the CO’s chimney [laughs] Mad.
CB: Was this the squadron commander who takes it in his stride? Or the station —
DG: Yeah.
CB: Or the station commander.
DG: Well if you know Baildon I think his name was Baildon there. He wasn’t a pilot. He was a navigator when the chap with us was gone. And he was one of my trips. He was in Heligoland. No. When we were shot up and the pilot had to land away. I haven’t done that story with you have I?
CB: Go on.
DG: The Germans come over and started shooting everybody up at certain times.
CB: On the airfields.
DG: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DG: It’s well known wasn’t it? So, a lot of them came over. Anyway, our skipper. Some of them were landing at Melbourne but our skipper landed down at Benson and he come away a couple of days after. And three of us woke up, walked around and around a brick toilet. If you woke the others up they’d moan at you wouldn’t they if nothing happened? But the funny thing about that we’d been held up three weeks for the last night cross country on the Wellingtons with the weather. That’s three weeks. So, we get down to the squadron. Right. We’d done a bit of flying. We flew this night when the dickie, just the pilot flew dickie. Second dickie. And it was an aeroplane shot, a Canadian one shot down and one of the chaps bailed out and got, this guy I know said, ‘Well that was Hazell.’ Another Canadian but he was with him at OTU. But it’s the funny incidents I worked out that he was in the same boat as us. Had to work, had to wait for the nice weather. And he’s on his second dickie. The same as us. It’s funny how you can work that out. And when we was up at Coningsby the other week with the, the other week, or months ago now wasn’t it. I asked the Canadians if they, they’ve nothing to do with —
CB: Canwick Hill.
DG: The wartime people. Well, it’s a big country isn’t it?
CB: Yeah. Huge. Now, if we’re talking about the end of the war with your operations but what experience did you have of LMF? People with LMF. Lacking moral fibre.
DG: In there. In there is a flight lieutenant. Flight Lieutenant Bastard, his name.
Other: Was he?
DG: And he got shot up one night. Shaking. So were the gunners. The Perspex had gone off the mid-upper and the Perspex had gone off the tail gunner as well. There was no bottom on the tail gunner and it missed them. They were going LMF. Anyway, he must have talked them round to them and he was on an op the next night and he got shot up again. Being, it shot the hole in the elsan and up the side of the flap as well. Ray, in the book we used to get, the common, “The Intercom.” You’ve see one of them? “The Intercom.” I found one the other day. Yesterday I think. So in the comment he sees he’s an air commodore now.
CB: Oh right.
DG: It’s the only place I saw his name again.
CB: Right.
DG: He was an air commodore.
CB: But I don’t get the point. He — the plane was shot up.
DG: Yeah.
CB: And there was bad damage.
DG: Oh yeah.
CB: TO the back. The middle and the back with the Perspex.
DG: Yeah.
CB: But where was, what’s the link with lacking moral fibre?
DG: To put it this way they didn’t bring all the Perspex.
CB: Right.
DG: Gone.
CB: Right.
DG: You was. That’s it. You’re going to die.
CB: Ok. But he didn’t refuse to fly.
DG: They would do. He talked them out of it.
CB: That’s. Yeah. Ok.
DG: Yeah. He talked them out of it.
CB: So the pilot talked out talked the gunners out of it.
DG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Because they were lucky to be alive.
DG: Yeah.
CB: In the circumstances.
DG: Yeah. Everybody really.
CB: Right. Yeah.
DG: Well, he might have told them that.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Nice. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
DG: Of course, if you’re going to crash, you know you were on fire the poor pilot stopped there and puts it on automatic pilot.
CB: So, any, did you know of any other experiences of LMF? Did you hear about —
DG: No. But we had a chap when we was at Con Unit. Used to have a shower, get dressed and write a letter home, then go to bed. Come for his second tour.
CB: So, what do you mean by that?
DG: Gone a bit away [laughs]
CB: Right.
DG: Nobody, nobody said anything to him would they?
CB: No. What happened next?
DG: Well, I mean to say we, we was, that’s it, we was on this driving course at Weeton. Weeton the driver’s course. Weeton. And the aircrew making out they’ve got some cuts and taking the fall that they’ve gone [unclear] because they’d been aircrew. Making out they’d got. Making out, but I mean they say if someone goes LMF you see somebody and you don’t see them again.
CB: Right.
DG: You don’t know if they’ve been shot down or what.
CB: Right.
DG: But over the grapevine you hear so and so’s crashed. There was one crashed in the hills somewhere and just the two gunners got out. Another time the two gunners had gone. See that old boy that died that was in [pause] doing the stuff. The Hungarian or something. During the war he had a crash and he was the only one that got out of it. His tail hit a tree and he was the only one that survived. But he was six months in dock.
CB: Because of physical damage or mental?
DG: Physical, I believe.
CB: Ok.
DG: Yeah. He only lived at Tring.
CB: Right.
DG: Jack. Didn’t you, you didn’t meet up with him, did you?
CB: I didn’t. No.
DG: With Bill.
CB: Changing the subject again. Promotion. How did the promotion system work and why were you promoted after the war to warrant officer?
DG: To what?
CB: Well, you were a warrant officer.
DG: Yeah.
CB: How did the promotion timing and system work?
DG: I don’t know.
CB: So, as soon as you qualified as a gunner.
DG: You get your brevet and that’s it.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Put the tapes on.
CB: Yeah. Ok. As a [pause] what rank?
DG: Sergeant still.
CB: Right. How long?
DG: It comes through automatic.
CB: How long? How long before you became a flight sergeant?
DG: About six months I suppose. I got it. I don’t know where I was when I — about twelve months.
CB: And how long before you became a warrant officer?
DG: About around the twelve months or a bit over the top of that.
CB: Right. So you were promoted to warrant officer when you weren’t flying any longer.
DG: Yeah. I was a warrant officer when I wasn’t flying any longer. In India.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Good. Thank you very much.
DG: But still we used to work and that’s it. Nobody interfered with us.
CB: No.
DG: We knew what we’d got to do. No messing about.
CB: No.
DG: I mean to say if you, in Civvy Street you get somebody that’s not the right touch isn’t there but [pause[ we just used to do our work.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Get your crate of vehicles in. In these trucks. Course you, you were wearing what we called mosquito boots. The leg hooks up to there because of snakes.
CB: Yeah. I can imagine. Going back to your early days you were in the Air Training Corps.
DG: Yeah.
CB: When you were at school.
DG: 1187 Hemel Hempstead.
CB: Right.
DG: I was in it when it first started.
CB: When was that?
DG: Cor 19 — it must have been 1952.
CB: It was in the war you were in.
DG: Yeah. And —
CB: 1942.
DG: Yeah. Yeah. Probably in 1941 but —
CB: Yeah.
DG: We used to have the, the meetings at the school up Crabtree Lane. You know Crabtree Lane.
CB: Yeah.
DG: We used to walk down to Dickersons, in to the firehouse, get six rifles and march back up and done a bit of a parade with the rifles. Walk back down to the firehouse and take the guns back. And we had a band as well because I used to play the drums.
CB: Did you?
DG: I’d got this broken ankle in plaster. I used to [laughs] I used to cycle to Watford there.
CB: Played it quicker.
DG: With my broken ankle in plaster. Working. Alright. Well, we was working on flying controls most of the time.
CB: Were you? So what did you actually do at the Mosquito works? The De Havilland works in Hatfield.
DG: No. Leavesden.
CB: Oh, Leavesden. Ok.
DG: Leavesden.
CB: Right.
DG: It was Halifaxes was the other end wasn’t it?
CB: Yeah. Right. So what did you do on the Mosquitoes? What was your role?
DG: Most of the time was on flying controls. Very good.
CB: Right. So how — which part of the flying controls?
DG: All of them.
CB: Right. So from the control column.
DG: From the control you got the all, all the cables were numbered up. Numbered up. The trimmers. And you put your wheels, wheels on. You know. Down in the centre section.
CB: Yeah. So you assembled the flying controls.
DG: We were assemblers. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DG: And one time we was asked to stop overnight. Done a day’s work. Do a night’s work and put the tailplane on. Put the tailplane and the fin. Well you’ve got, got trim trade comes across the —
CB: Right.
DG: Spar there. Trim. And we used to have — put the wax string and the trim tab in the dinghy box. I was small. I could get inside the dinghy box and do the figure of eight wax string.
CB: Right. So you were doing that for quite some time.
DG: Yeah. About eighteen months I think. That’s all.
CB: And then what?
DG: They called me up.
CB: Right. So, why did you go to the RAF and not to the other forces?
DG: I couldn’t get, well, I could have gone in the army but to me [pause] to me I thought well I’ve got two years training. I didn’t know they’d do a small course for about five or six months in gunnery school. I was ready by the summer. I couldn’t go in. Well, I went. Went to the medical place at the school in St Albans. I knew all the planes. So, the bloke that showed me, he wasn’t going to let me go ground crew was he if I knew all those aeroplanes?
CB: Right.
DG: Say, ‘Oh no. They’re full up.’
CB: Because in the ATC you were able to learn a lot of these things while you were an ATC cadet. About the aeroplane.
DG: We took an, we took an Airspeed Oxford cylinder off.
CB: Could you? Right.
DG: And that’s a Cheetah engine isn’t it? With like the things over the top. I can still remember those flaps over the double Cheetah engines. Yeah.
CB: So that, you got in to the RAF. What attracted you particularly?
DG: Nothing.
CB: To the RAF.
DG: I didn’t want to go in it. I didn’t want to join.
CB: No. But you, you had —
DG: Had to.
CB: Yeah. So, you’d rather have carried on in the aircraft works.
DG: Oh yeah. I was really enjoying that. Well, you’re a gunner. You’re doing a job. Alright, you’re a gunner. But I was doing something. I wasn’t learning any more was I?
CB: No.
DG: Well, learning. Still, it was the same in the gliding club. Used to put things together. And somebody used to have, we put a door on the back of this trailer, you know, make a door for it. You know. Alright. Another time another chap in flying a K7. You know the K7?
CB: Yeah.
DG: You do so and so then come and help me. You know. Fly with him in the K7. Go and help him.
CB: So, when you were working in the De Havilland works what did you have to do at night? Did you have to do fire watching sometimes?
DG: No. No. No. No. Probably they got mostly the people that used to live local for that wouldn’t they?
CB: Right. Right.
DG: So much time —
CB: How did you get back to home? Was there a bus or how did you get? On the train was it?
DG: Train. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DG: Well — working there?
CB: Yeah.
DG: Cycle.
CB: Oh, you cycled.
DG: Always cycled. It took us twenty minutes. Ten minutes to get to the Ovaltine the back way and ten minutes to get through to De Havilland’s.
CB: Right.
DG: Because we’d go through the back way. Right the back there’s a little lane going up. It goes down and up. And the policeman on the door. You got, got a pass to get through. So, I was on the other side of the De Havillands.
CB: So, in the Works, the De Havilland’s Works what was the work force? Made up of young people like you? What other people were there?
DG: There was other people.
CB: What type of people?
DG: Some of them come from [unclear] of course a chap, one of the chappies I was working with used to work at Airspeeds’ down at Portsmouth. I mean, I think we’d done some work up there with my brother in law and I met Mick, at least one that I used to work with during the war there. He was on the machine. Well, when, when I come out the air force I went up there and there was only work on the machines and I said, I’ve been three years outside I don’t want to go inside. So, I put in for a job as a carpenter. Done a carpentry course.
CB: Where did you do that?
DG: At Watford.
CB: And then what did you do?
DG: Come out and done carpentry.
CB: Where? For yourself or for a builder?
DG: No. It was a lovely little job. Salford and Radlett. And he was an air force chappy on the ground crew. Me and him used to get on lovely. Used to get on lovely.
CB: So what was his, what did his business do?
DG: It was his business.
CB: Making what?
DG: Houses.
CB: Right.
DG: Yeah.
CB: So, he was a carpenter or —
DG: Yeah. And I come through the course, you know. Do a six months course.
CB: So, what — did he build the whole house or was he still a carpenter?
DG: Well, no. Just the wood work.
CB: He did the wood work.
DG: Went with the brother in law. But he was living in a bungalow and anyway decided he could make it into a house. So took the roof off. Put the roof back on. Then he climbed up a ladder for too long. His wife was moaning. Climbing up a ladder to bed.
CB: How long did you stay with that?
DG: Oh, run out of work. Then I got a job over at Berkhamsted.
CB: What were you doing there?
DG: Carpentry. Carpentry.
CB: For what?
DG: For a —
CB: A builder.
DG: Oh yeah. The carpentry. I forget the company. The company. Anyway, his driver was off one week and the boss was driving the lorry. He said, ‘Can you drive a lorry?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ And it was a Austin tipper. I knew where the tipper was as well because my mate got one and I’d been driving his for a while. Yeah. Just, well, he said, ‘Do you want to drive one day?’ Got a load of gravel from Leighton Buzzard and took it to Ricky. He was driving. He could see I could drive better than him. Right. You went on a driving course you know and a couple of pilots failed driving. Funny.
CB: Strange.
DG: Funny.
CB: Yeah.
DG: But some people don’t go through. Well, we was on a driving thing one night. It was pouring with rain. You’d got the WAAF at the side of you. Just as escort. Night driving thing. And she went to sleep. Into the lorry in front.
CB: So you had an interesting time.
DG: As I said when I came out the air force and got a motorbike. And after a couple of years I got a racing bike and had it on the grass. It was from Brooklands. 1925 racing bike on the Brooklands. And there’s Surtees. Young Surtees. We used to see young Surtees and his dad but he’d be running about. Didn’t want to drive in the sidecar with his dad. And he was racing solo. Grey. Grey. HRD. I passed him. It was the end of the start at Stokenchurch. You know Stokenchurch?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DG: Well I passed him at the bend. Of course he’d got, the bike was too big. I was on the 350, he was on the 500. He went [unclear] on the corner. He’d had it hadn’t he? Mad.
CB: Now, you said you did a lot of gliding. How did you get into that?
DG: Well, the wife at the time. I wanted a dinghy. She said, ‘No. None of us like swimming. Go for this.’ So, I went down and had a talk with them. She said, ‘Have a flight.’ I had a flight. She said, ‘Take it over.’ I wouldn’t because I knew you were flying on the stall but I joined the next. If a woman can do it I can do it.
CB: So you did.
DG: I think in about [unclear] months I was solo. I had yellow jaundice and I was on the sick. Free wasn’t I? Course at the start if that was a good day I used to go over there. But if it was a rough day. She said, ‘Well, you’d better come on the rough day because you’ve got to learn circuits and bumps.’ I didn’t want to stop up, did I?
CB: So, how many years did you fly as a glider pilot?
DG: Was I still flying when you came here?
Other: You told me about thirty years.
DG: I used to fly didn’t I?
Other: Yeah.
DG: Yeah.
Other: Yeah. Yeah. I used to come over with you didn’t I?
CB: Took Barbara up.
Other: No. I wouldn’t go up. I could have gone up many a time but I didn’t.
DG: You must have heard John Jeffries at Dunstable. He’s still flying.
CB: Is he?
DG: Yeah. They wouldn’t let him instruct anymore.
CB: No.
DG: But I suppose he can, easy going to choose can’t he?
CB: Yeah. We’ve covered an awful lot of things, Derek and that’s really interesting. Thank you very much. I think we’ll draw it to a close now because you need a bit of a rest
DG: You could stop here all night couldn’t you?
CB: Yeah. Well, that’s ok.
Other: He’ll be asleep when you’ve gone.
CB: And I might need to catch up with you again. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Derek Gurney
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGurneyDAE160128
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Format
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01:02:48 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Derek Gurney was working at the De Havilland Works before he volunteered for aircrew. While on training he saw one Wellington blow up and another with a broken wing. He was posted to 10 Squadron, RAF Melbourne for his tour. On one operation they nearly collided with another aircraft. After his tour Derek trained as a driver and was posted to India.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
India
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Helgoland
India--New Delhi
India--Bilāspur (Chhattīsgarh : District)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
10 Squadron
1652 HCU
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
crewing up
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Me 163
Operational Training Unit
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Melbourne
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/901/11438/APaineFE160824.2.mp3
78a14c6c091927f90c6934cc58801a9d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jenkinson, Peter and Leslie
Peter Raeburn Jenkinson
P R Jenkinson
Leslie Philip Jenkinson
L P Jenkinson
Description
An account of the resource
111 items. The collection concernes Leslie Philip Jenkinson (b. 1923, 13314603 Royal Air Force) and Flight Sergeant Peter Raeburn Jenkinson DFM (1921 - 1945, 1826262 Royal Air Force) and an oral history interview with Evelyn Paine who discusses the service of her brothers. There are two sub-collections containing a total of 110 items pertaining to each brother. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1764">Peter Jenkinson</a> flew operations as a flight engineer with 166 and 153 Squadrons and was killed 28 January 1945.<br /><br /><span><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1763">Philip Jenkinson</a> flew operations as a mid-upper gunner on 10 Squadron. He was shot down on 6 September 1943 and taken prisoner.</span><br /><br /><span data-contrast="none" class="TextRun SCXW24604530 BCX0" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW24604530 BCX0">Additional information on Peter Jenkinson is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/112119/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Evelyn Paine and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW24604530 BCX0" data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":200,"335559740":276}"> </span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jenkinson, LP-PR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 24th of August 2016. I’m in the house of Evelyn Paine who is the sister of the person we’re doing a proxy interview for — Philip Jenkinson. One of two brothers. And he joined the RAF in 1941 but what are your, Evelyn your earliest recollections of your brother and how did he come to join the RAF?
EP: Well, I’m not really sure.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Well, where, where did the family live?
EP: [unclear] Farm in Falmouth.
CB: Where? In Falmouth. Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Right. So where did he go to school?
EP: At St Breward in North Cornwall because we lived there at the time.
CB: Right. And what did your parents do?
EP: Well, they’d both sort of retired. Mum. They didn’t do anything.
CB: Farming?
EP: No. No.
CB: No. They weren’t?
EP: No.
CB: Ok.
EP: Just retired.
CB: And so everybody went to school locally.
EP: Pardon?
CB: Everybody went to school locally.
EP: Yes. Yes.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And what was that school? Was it a —
EP: A council school.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Secondary school?
EP: No. I don’t think so.
CB: And what age did Philip leave school?
EP: At fourteen.
CB: And then what did he do?
EP: Farming. He went for poultry farming.
CB: And what was he doing as a poultry farmer?
EP: Well, I suppose picking up eggs and cleaning the chickens out and one thing like that I suppose.
CB: And how long did he do that for?
EP: Until ’41 when he went into the air force.
CB: Ok. But before that he’d volunteered hadn’t he?
EP: Yes.
CB: What did he do?
EP: Well, he joined the LDV.
CB: Yeah. What does that mean?
GP: Local Defence Volunteers.
EP: Yes.
GP: Home guard.
CB: What was it?
EP: [laughs] What was it?
GP: Local Defence Volunteers.
EP: Look.
CB: Local.
EP: Local.
GP: Defence volunteers.
CB: Local Defence Volunteers.
GP: Really the Home Guard.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And what did he do in being an LDV member?
EP: I’m not sure. He went off in the evenings to do something. Drills I suppose. Watched the bridges and things like that.
CB: Yeah. They were on guard duty.
EP: On guard duty. Yes.
CB: And did he discuss it regularly with you?
EP: No.
CB: Or did he keep it all very quiet.
EP: Yeah. Keep it very —
CB: Yeah. So the war started and he was still on the chicken farm.
EP: Yes.
CB: So at what age did he volunteer to join the RAF?
EP: In ’41. What age you could be. Twenty three.
CB: Eighteen.
EP: Eighteen. Something like that.
CB: So, what prompted him to do that?
EP: Well, because he was, because he was sent from the farm to volunteer. The three of them.
CB: Ah three. Who were they?
EP: Well, blokes that were working the farm.
CB: Other farm workers.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So what did they do? The three of them.
EP: I don’t know.
CB: And how, how did they decide? You said just now.
EP: I think that —
CB: How did they decide what to do?
EP: I think they, whoever they went to see I suppose.
CB: So there were three of them.
EP: The recruiting officers.
CB: And who decided which of the forces to go in?
EP: I think the person who interviewed them. I suppose.
CB: So what happened? One went in the — you said earlier.
EP: Yes. One in the navy, one in the army and one air force. And Philip was the air force.
CB: Right. So then what did he do?
EP: I don’t really know. He —
CB: They sent him —
EP: Then he went to Reading. I don’t know whether — did he go up to Lloyds?
CB: Went to Lord’s.
EP: Lords.
CB: Because —
GP: Lord’s Cricket Ground.
CB: That was the Lords Reception Centre.
EP: Yes. And I don’t really know what he did after that.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
EP: Now, the thing is one of the ships going to Canada was cut in half with the Queen Mary wasn’t it? Somehow.
GP: That’s right.
CB: Ok. So we’ll come to that in a mo. So, after he joined at Lords Cricket Ground where did he go?
EP: He went to Newquay.
CB: Ok. Which was an Initial Training Wing.
EP: Yes.
CB: And how long was he there?
EP: About three months I think.
CB: And that’s on — down in Cornwall.
EP: Yes. Down in Cornwall. Yes.
CB: And then he was sent where?
EP: To Canada I think.
CB: Right. And how did that happen? How did he go?
EP: By boat. That one.
CB: Which one?
EP: What’s the name.
CB: The Cavina.
EP: Cavina.
CB: So what happened there? There was something about the boats. What happened?
EP: When it was in Liverpool —
CB: Right.
EP: The boat he was going over on was cut in half with the Queen Mary because she ran into it.
CB: Oh. But he wasn’t, he wasn’t on that.
EP: No. No.
GP: Very careless.
CB: Very careless. Yeah. And so what did they have to do?
EP: They waited for another boat. But for how long I don’t know.
CB: No. And when they went to Canada then they went where? In to —
EP: Winnipeg.
CB: Ok. And what happened at Winnipeg?
EP: I suppose he just did his training I suppose.
CB: Ok. So we’re, what was he training to do?
EP: Air gunner.
CB: And so that was a mixture of ground work and air to air.
EP: Suppose so.
CB: And training to be an air gunner what, what did they do there?
EP: [laughs] Fire.
CB: Ok. So how did the training go for air gunnery? What did they do?
EP: I suppose flying and shooting.
CB: Doing what?
EP: Flying and shooting.
CB: Yeah. But on the ground first what did they do?
GP: On the range.
CB: So they did, they did clay pigeon shooting.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Rifle shooting.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And the flying. What was that? What type of shooting did they do there?
EP: Don’t know.
CB: Against a target towed by another plane.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And when he came back from Canada where did he return to?
EP: I’m not sure.
CB: Liverpool?
EP: No. Oh, he went to — yes. He came back to Liverpool.
CB: Yeah. And then —
EP: Then I don’t know where he went from.
CB: Then he, then he went to a squadron.
EP: Yes.
CB: Right.
EP: That would be Melbourne.
CB: At Melbourne. Where’s that?
GP: 10 Squadron.
EP: Yorkshire.
CB: Right. And the squadron number?
GP: 10.
EP: 10.
CB: What were they flying?
EP: Halifaxes.
CB: And where was his position in the aircraft?
EP: Top. Yes.
GP: Mid-upper. Mid-upper.
EP: Mid-upper gunner.
CB: Ok. And so he then went on to operations.
EP: Yes. He did.
CB: And we’re now in 1943.
EP: And he did ten.
CB: Did he?
EP: And then he was shot down.
CB: Yeah. How? How did they come to be shot down?
EP: By, by another plane. By a — what was it? What was the plane that shot down?
GP: Oh —
CB: It was in the night was it?
EP: Yes. Night time.
GP: Yes.
CB: Ok. And —
GP: I’m not sure.
CB: Did they all get out or —
EP: No. Two were killed.
CB: Ok. Who were the ones killed?
EP: The bomb aimer. Not the bomb aimer. The rear gunner and the pilot.
CB: Ok. Do we know why that was?
EP: No.
CB: So —
GP: Sitting in the wrong seat.
CB: Yeah. So the, if the attacking aircraft had approached from behind it’s more likely that that’s how the rear gunner died.
EP: Yeah.
CB: But what about the pilot? What do you know about why he didn’t survive?
EP: Whether he stayed with the aircraft and he crashed I don’t know. I don’t really know.
CB: Ok.
GP: Yes. He may have stayed with it ‘til he was sure they were all out and then it was too late.
CB: Ok. So that’s —
GP: That was the usual pattern.
CB: That was the usual pattern.
EP: And Philip was loose for nine days before he was caught.
CB: Was he?
EP: Yeah.
CB: What was he doing for nine days?
EP: Well, he was hiding during the day and then walked around in the night time.
CB: Where to?
EP: He was hoping to get to Switzerland.
CB: So where was he shot down?
EP: At [pause] oh dear.
CB: Well, let’s start earlier. The raid was on which town? Who were they, where were they bombing?
EP: Munich.
CB: Munich. Right. Ok.
GP: Munich. Yeah.
CB: So this is on the way back is it or on the way there?
EP: It must have been on the way there because they’d jettisoned the bombs and one bomb went into a little church.
CB: Did it?
EP: And destroyed it. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Right. So he got out of the plane.
EP: Yes. With a parachute. But he doesn’t remember jumping.
CB: And he landed ok.
EP: Yes.
CB: So how did he know where he was going to go?
EP: He didn’t. Just hoped for the best.
CB: Right. Ok.
GP: We’ve done it on the map haven’t we? He nearly got, he nearly got into Switzerland. Just this side of the border and got caught.
EP: He got caught in [pause]
GP: Walked around the corner and there they were.
EP: Where was he caught?
GP: I should know this. I can see it on the map but I can’t remember the name.
CB: So, in practical terms —
GP: Nearly made it.
CB: He’d almost arrived. He got caught. Why?
GP: He was, well he just happened, he came around the corner.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Expected, not expecting to see anybody. There was, I think two Germans there, ‘For you the war is over.’
EP: And his bomb aimer. Both of them were together.
CB: Just the two of them. Right.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Ok.
EP: The other two were caught two days afterwards.
GP: He was only a very short distance from the border. Very short distance. Quarter of a mile.
EP: And Kevin, his navigator was caught straight away.
CB: Oh was he?
EP: By a policeman. Which I’ll tell you in a minute.
CB: Ok. So the aircraft itself landed where?
EP: At the farm we go to —
CB: Right. Which is?
EP: At Leeder.
GP: There’s a photo in there.
CB: What? What’s —
GP: Of the cell he was put in.
CB: What’s, what’s the town that’s nearest?
EP: Landsberg.
CB: Right. Landsberg. Landsberg’s the town. Ok. So let’s talk about, they’ve landed. Then what? He’s gone off on his own.
EP: He buried, he buried his parachute.
CB: Yeah.
EP: And then they started walking. And he thinks the first night they went around in a circle because the dogs started barking in the village and he had to sort of dodge. Dodge that.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. So then what?
EP: Then he started walking. Walked. He walked at night time. Hid at night err during the day.
CB: What sort of places did they hide in?
EP: Woods. Or where ever they could. And they did because the bomb aimer didn’t bring any rations so they shared their rations and then they sort of ate, ate carrots. Whatever they could find. Carrots and turnips or anything. And of course they had water from the streams.
CB: So, what time of year is this?
EP: Hmmn?
CB: What time of year?
EP: What time what?
CB: What time of year is this?
EP: September.
CB: Right.
EP: September the 6th, 7th
CB: 1943.
EP: Yeah.
CB: So, when he got caught, the two of them got caught then what happened?
EP: They were sent to a prisoner of war camp. First of all they were put in a cell for the night. And then —
GP: We’ve got a photo of the cell haven’t we?
EP: Hmmn?
GP: We’ve got a photo of the cell he was put in. Yeah.
CB: Ok. We’ll look at the photo of the cell.
EP: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok. So then what? Put in a cell —
EP: He went to the prisoner of war camp.
CB: Where was that?
EP: In Poland wasn’t it?
GP: Pardon?
EP: Poland wasn’t it?
GP: Poland I think.
EP: Poland I think.
GP: Yes. It was. Yeah.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And what rank was he at that time?
EP: I don’t know. He came back as a warrant officer. So what —
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah. So —
GP: [unclear]
EP: Whether he was a warrant officer before he went I don’t know.
CB: Right. And what was it like in the prisoner of war camp for him?
EP: It wasn’t too bad at all. Yeah. They used to bribe the Germans with chocolates and things because first of all you know they gave them a piece of chocolate, ‘Will you please bring me a screw?’ Or something like that. And then they made a wireless with, because once the Germans did something they couldn’t report it so they bribed him.
GP: Crafty.
EP: Yeah. Yes. Philip said the sweets and chocolates were very useful from the Red Cross parcels.
CB: Which parcels did they come in?
EP: Hmmn?
CB: Which parcels did they arrive in?
EP: In the Red Cross parcels.
CB: Right.
EP: Yeah.
CB: How often did they get a Red Cross parcel?
EP: Not very often. No.
CB: No. Ok. So —
EP: Once every three months or even more. I don’t quite —
CB: Do you know what —
EP: They took a long time to get over there.
CB: Yeah. What sort of, what was in the parcels?
[recording paused]
CB: This is a contents statement for the British Red Cross Society parcels. And it says pyjamas, towels, face cloth, toothbrush, warm shoes, scarf, wool gloves, leather — looks interesting. So, he’s in the prisoner of war camp in Poland. How did they occupy themselves during that time?
EP: Doing embroidery and things. He did a lot of embroidery.
CB: What sort of things?
EP: Tea cosies and tapestries.
GP: Gloves?
EP: Yes.
CB: Ok.
EP: Knitting and all that sort of thing.
CB: Ok. So the —
EP: And when they moved they took, everything they’d already done they left behind, they took things that weren’t finished.
CB: You’re talking about the end when they — who, who liberated?
EP: When they moved they —
CB: Who liberated them?
GP: They were moved.
EP: Desert Rats.
GP: To another camp.
CB: Oh they went to another camp did they?
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yes. When they went to, I think he went to four different camps I think.
CB: Did he?
EP: Yeah.
CB: So he was there, because he was there for two years.
EP: Eighteen months.
CB: Eighteen months. Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: So how did they get out of the last camp?
EP: The Desert Rats opened the gate and they all went out.
CB: Right.
EP: The Germans fled. They didn’t see them.
GP: I think they walked.
CB: So what happened? The, the gates were opened. Then what happened? How did he get back?
EP: They just walked out and they — didn’t it? For two days they didn’t do anything. Just stayed there. They had no food or anything. But what happened after that I don’t know.
CB: Right.
EP: Yeah.
GP: I think they walked west.
CB: So, how did he get back to England?
EP: He flew back to England.
CB: Where from?
EP: I don’t really know where from.
GP: Don’t know where from.
EP: Because he wanted to fly back.
CB: Did he?
EP: Yes. He wasn’t, he wasn’t coming back in a boat.
CB: Well, if you’re a flying man you wouldn’t want to would you?
GP: No.
CB: Right. So the RAF programme for that was called Operation Exodus. And many of the crews picked up POWs from airfields in Belgium and took them to the UK.
EP: I don’t know whether he went to Belgium. Don’t think he ever went to Belgium.
CB: Might not have got that far. So when he got back then what happened? What did he do?
EP: He spent a lot time in hospital.
CB: Why?
EP: Don’t know where.
CB: No. Why? Why did he have to go to hospital?
EP: Because he was so thin. Yeah. And he wasn’t all that well.
GP: He wasn’t very nourished. Wasn’t nourished very well.
EP: Undernourished and —
CB: What was the effect of being in the prison camp then?
GP: Losing weight mostly wasn’t it?
EP: Yeah. Losing weight wasn’t it? I don’t think they had much food. He said the bread was put, sawdust in the bread they said.
GP: Fill you up. Yeah.
CB: Ok. So he got back. Went into hospital. How long was he in hospital for?
EP: Oh. Quite a while. You know, now and then.
CB: How long is quite a while?
EP: Oh I don’t know. Three or four months I expect.
CB: Right. And then what did he do?
EP: Then he came home.
CB: Ok.
EP: He came home on leave.
CB: Then what?
EP: And then he went back. Don’t know where he went. To Melbourne would he?
GP: Pardon?
EP: Would he have gone back to his airport. Or where would he go?
GP: That’s when I met him wasn’t it? First. When he came back.
CB: So he went back to his airfield.
EP: I should think so.
GP: Yes. He did.
CB: Which was —
GP: He went —
CB: At Melbourne.
GP: He went back as a load master.
CB: Right.
GP: From 511. From 511 Squadron.
EP: I don’t know where he went then. That’s where you —
GP: Yes. Because I followed him there.
CB: You just happened to meet him there.
GP: I think I knew he was there but I was there and we were both there at one time. I was flying as second pilot and he was doing the freight. We were moving freight.
CB: To where?
GP: From Germany back here.
CB: Oh right.
EP: To, you went to India didn’t you?
GP: Pardon?
EP: India, didn’t you?
GP: Pardon?
EP: You went to India.
GP: I went to India. Went all over the place. Rhodesia, India.
CB: But he didn’t go there.
GP: No. I don’t think. No.
EP: No. I don’t think —
CB: So then he left the air force. When did he leave the air force?
EP: In ’48 I think. And then he went farming. Poultry farming.
CB: Right.
EP: At —
CB: Where he was before?
EP: No. At Swin —
GP: At AG Street’s place.
EP: Yes. Anthony. But where was that?
GP: You remember AG Street? The broadcaster. Farming. He went, he went —
EP: And then he left.
GP: He worked for him. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And he kept, he did that for the rest of his life did he? Or did he do something else?
EP: No. He went farming. I had a farm. And then he came and sort of took over.
CB: Right. So as far as the RAF is concerned then he’s his interest about the crash was rekindled for some reason.
EP: Yes.
CB: What was that?
EP: I don’t know.
CB: What prompted that?
EP: Well, it’s in, he said to me, ‘I’m going to Germany in ’83.’ And I said, ‘Why ever do you want to go to Germany in ’83?’ ‘Because,’ he says, ‘It’s forty years since I was shot down.’ So what he did, he rang up the Air Ministry and asked them where he crashed. And he said, well they didn’t really know but a bloke in Germany will tell you. And Philip wrote to him.
GP: Hans Grimminger.
EP: Hans Grimminger and I think Hans rang Philip up and said, ‘Oh yes. I know where your plane came down.’ And Philip said, ‘Well, I’m coming over in September.’ Same time. September 7th because, you know, the time he was shot down. And so he said, ‘Well, you’ve got to come and stay with me.’ So, we all stayed there and then evidently before we went over there he advertised in the paper, did anybody know about this plane? Which he got so I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you about it.
CB: Ok.
GP: I was speaking to Hans Grimminger this week on the phone.
EP: Wait a minute.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And now we’re looking, we’re looking at the cuttings specifically.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Related to that. Ok. So we’re in 1983.
GP: [unclear]
EP: Wait a minute I’ve got —
GP: Wonderful collection we have.
EP: There’s him in the cell. There’s that one.
CB: So what happened? So, he wrote. He wrote. And did he get responses? Or —
EP: Yes. Yes. Yes.
CB: What did he get?
EP: I don’t know what that photograph’s of.
CB: We’ll stop for a mo.
GP: He was put —
[recording paused]
CB: What — just going back a bit. What happened to the navigator?
EP: He was picked up straight away.
CB: What was his name?
EP: In the village. But he couldn’t do anything with his parachute because it was caught in the barbed wire. So he couldn’t do anything about his. And so evidently a policeman caught him. Rang up his party and said what, ‘I’ve got an airmen here. What do I do with him?’ So they said, ‘Well, if he’s an officer you don’t put him in a cell. You put him in one of your own beds.’ So Kevin was, there’s that’s the, that’s the policeman’s daughter, erm wife.
GP: Yeah.
EP: There’s the daughter who was turfed out of her bed so Kevin could go in. [unclear] so that’s that.
CB: So he went, he was put in that bed. Then what happened?
EP: And then he stayed there for the night and he was told to put his trousers outside the door so he wouldn’t run away. And then he was taken to a prisoner of war camp after that. The next day.
CB: And that was a different prisoner of war camp.
EP: Yes. Yes.
CB: From the others because he was the first to be captured.
EP: Yes. And Philip didn’t see him again until years afterwards.
CB: Right.
EP: Because in ’79 he had a car, a car accident. He came to see us on the way to a sale somewhere or other. He had a car accident and he went in to St Alban’s Hospital, and Geoff went to see him but he wasn’t allowed to see Philip because he was in uniform. They wouldn’t allow him because he’d gone back to the war. And so in the evening when Geoff went to see him he said, ‘Where am I?’ And so Geoff says, ‘In St Albans.’ ‘Oh St Albans. My navigator lives in St Albans. Kevin Murphy.’ So Geoff came here and looked in the telephone book and there was a Kevin Murphy there. So Geoff rang him up and he said, he said ‘Did you serve with Philip Jenkinson during the war?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well he’s in your hospital.’ Kevin went down to see him and he realised he recognized him straight away, Kevin. And they nattered about the war, you know, the plane and one thing and another. I went in the same day. He still doesn’t recollect me going in there but yet he went back all that time.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Extraordinary.
GP: Kevin Murphy. Nice chap.
EP: And there’s —
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there just for the mo.
[recording paused]
CB: It’s just, so back to the earlier comment about 1983. You were put in touch with the Germans.
EP: Yes.
CB: In the area of the crash.
EP: Yes.
CB: Ok. So how did that move on from there? They’ve got a memorial.
EP: Well, the memorial, we saw the memorial first. That’s nothing to do with Philip’s crash. That was the memorial they’ve got for Philip err for Peter.
CB: Oh ok. So that’s different.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So Philip’s one. Ok. So what did they do?
EP: We went, we went to Philip’s crash.
CB: Point.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And what did you see there?
EP: Hmmn?
CB: What did you see there?
EP: We saw the way he crashed and all the photographs. Then we went down to the farm and got some more photographs. And then we had tea there and they were very, very nice. We made friends ever since.
CB: So who were these Germans?
EP: Well, these Germans on the farm. The plane crashed and the old girl she, she remembers the plane and she remembers her brother taking the photographs. So when they saw the advert they looked in the house and found them and gave them to Philip. To which was there —
CB: Fascinating. Yeah.
EP: There’s the farm. And, and Philip had to jettison the bombs and one of the bombs went in that church and destroyed that.
CB: Right. So when, what you’re talking about is the plane, when the plane was hit it hadn’t reached the target.
EP: No.
GP: Jettisoned the bombs.
CB: So they jettisoned the bombs.
EP: Yes. Yeah.
CB: And one of them hit the church.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Which has been rebuilt.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: Right.
EP: About seventy odd it was rebuilt.
CB: Right.
GP: They were very nice about it weren’t they [laughs]
CB: So what in fact was their interest in your coming?
EP: Just I think they were so pleased.
GP: Fascinated to meet somebody —
EP: A crew member.
CB: And so you travelled from England. Did you have somewhere to stay? Or were you looking around.
EP: No. We didn’t have anywhere to stay.
CB: So what happened?
EP: Well, they gave us, we went down to see the memorial. We came back to a sort of hotel which we didn’t know what it was. And they gave us a meal. And then we said we had to find somewhere to sleep. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We have beds here for you.’ So we slept there for the night and then we were told, ‘You’ve got to come here 9 o’clock tomorrow morning.’ Which we were there ready at 9 o’clock and they took us up to their, up to their cemetery.
GP: It’s stuck. It’s stuck here. That’s it.
EP: Where’s — where’s —
CB: And what was in the cemetery?
EP: The stone that had all their names on.
CB: Now wait a minute. So just to recap. In practical terms we had five of the crew getting out.
EP: Yes.
CB: But the pilot and the rear gunner didn’t.
EP: No.
CB: So what’s the significance of this cemetery?
EP: I don’t know whether we’ve got it here or not. Or whether it’s in Peter’s [pause] So we went to their cemetery which they had this stone with all their names on. The pilot —
CB: The two.
EP: Then we went to their cemetery. You know the airmen, you know. The. We’ve done that one. —
GP: The War Graves.
EP: The War Graves. And the seven, Peter’s seven were there and Philip’s two were there. All in the same place.
CB: So, wait a minute. What’s the war graves then? [pause] I wonder how —
[recording paused]
GP: Different thing.
CB: We’ve got a bit of confusion here because of the two brothers. So we’re talking about Philip only.
GP: Yes.
CB: The ‘83 contacts were to do with Philip’s crash but there was no memorial on the site of the crash. Only viewing the site. Separately the two crew who died — the pilot and the rear gunner.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Are buried in a War Grave Commission —
GP: Yeah.
CB: Cemetery.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: Which we haven’t identified just at the moment.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Right. Ok.
EP: Went to —
CB: So after looking at the site. Then what did you do?
EP: Went back to Hans’ place.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Which was about thirty miles away.
CB: Ok.
EP: And then the next day —
CB: That’s where you stayed, was it?
EP: Yes. Stayed.
CB: With him.
EP: Yes.
CB: Ok. Now, the people who went are you and Geoff.
EP: And Philip and Jean.
CB: Philip and his wife, Jean.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
CB: So the four of you then went with Hans.
EP: Yes. Back to their place.
CB: Yeah. And then what did you do?
EP: The next day they took us to the cemetery.
EP: Right.
EP: At [pause] oh dear what’s it called?
GP: Aglasterhausen.
EP: Hmmn?
GP: Aglasterhausen.
EP: No. It’s not.
CB: But it’s the War Graves Commission cemetery.
EP: Yes.
GP: I’m trying to think of it.
CB: How long did it take to drive there?
EP: Oh, an hour or so I should think.
CB: Right. Ok.
EP: Quite a while.
CB: And after looking at that then what did you do?
EP: I think we came home.
CB: Ok. Right.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And reflected on —
EP: We drove, we drove over there.
CB: Yeah. And reflected on the experience.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Right.
EP: Yes.
CB: So, you’re with Philip and his wife. You’ve driven both ways. How did the conversation go after having being in the site and then as you came back? What do you remember about that? Because he’d be reminiscing was he?
EP: Yes [laughs]
GP: Yeah.
CB: So what did he talk about?
EP: It was the crash I think. When the plane came down and —
GP: Yes. In no uncertain terms.
CB: Had he? In what way?
GP: Oh gosh.
EP: He was ready to kill every German until, until we went out.
CB: Right.
EP: And they were so nice.
CB: Yeah.
EP: We couldn’t believe they were so nice.
CB: So he changed his tune.
EP: He changed his mind.
GP: Changed his mind.
CB: Ok.
GP: I was speaking to Hans Grimminger yesterday.
CB: Were you?
GP: On the phone. Yeah.
CB: So on the way back then he was reminiscing was he? About the experience.
EP: Yes. Yes.
EP: Yes. I think he was. Yes.
CB: Anything in particular?
EP: No. I don’t think so.
GP: He was very thrilled that he’d found somebody, Germans that knew what was going on and were very friendly to us. Yeah. I think he was a bit surprised I think.
CB: It tempered his enmity did it?
GP: Pardon?
CB: It tempered his enmity towards Germans.
CB: Yeah. Changed completely.
EP: He certainly did.
GP: He certainly did.
CB: Ok.
GP: [unclear]
CB: So Philip eventually died in 2011.
EP: Yes.
CB: What happened as a result of that?
EP: Well, he wanted his ashes to go to Germany. So we had to arrange, but because because he wanted to be by his crew. He wanted them to be buried by his crew. But they wouldn’t allow it because there was no relations. But as I had a relation there he could, they could be buried by Peter. So that’s what we did.
CB: So we’re coming on to Peter in a minute. Ok.
GP: So they just —
CB: You didn’t scatter them. You buried them.
EP: Hmmn?
CB: You didn’t scatter them.
EP: No. No. They buried them.
CB: You buried them.
EP: Yeah.
GP: We dug a little hole.
EP: Yes. By —
GP: In line with the graves. And put them in a little box.
CB: Right.
GP: Just in front of the graves.
CB: Ok.
GP: You’ve got a picture somewhere haven’t you?
CB: Right. Well, we’ll cover that later.
GP: Yes.
CB: Right. So after quizzing the Sherlock Holmes team we’re going to adjourn for the invitation of a cup of tea.
EP: Yes. Alright.
GP: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re now on the second of our proxy interviews with Evelyn Paine and in this case we’re talking about Evelyn’s other brother whose name was Peter Jenkinson DFM. And he was older than Philip but there were reasons why he joined the RAF later. So, shall we start off please Evelyn with the earliest recollections you have.
EP: Well, I remember his always being ill.
CB: Had he?
EP: Yes.
CB: What was he suffering from?
EP: Well, he had pneumonia and pleurisy and flu and everything else. And one day from school he was sent home because he wasn’t very well and he collapsed. When mum opened the door he collapsed and he was put in to hospital. And then one night when she went there the matron called, she said, ‘I want to see you.’ So she’s saying that she didn’t think he was going to last the night. So when she went back to Peter he wanted to know what she wanted. What matron wanted. And so all mum could say was he wanted, she wanted some clean pyjamas, and she said, ‘I didn’t really know what to say.’ But he survived the night.
GP: Amazing.
CB: And then what?
EP: Well, then, then when he was seventeen or something like that he went up to Bristol Aircraft Company and he worked there for a while.
CB: Doing what?
EP: Making aircraft. Building aircraft. Making the aircraft.
CB: So where was this?
EP: At Bristol.
CB: Right.
EP: Bristol Filton. And then, then when the war broke out he wanted to join the RAF and he went to have a medical but they wouldn’t take him because he was unfit. So of course he went back to the aircraft factory and then he tried three more times and every time he was not fit.
CB: Unfit in what way?
EP: Well, because his illness when he was younger.
CB: Right.
GP: There’s a little bit here you want to say about he was unfit because he couldn’t —
[recording paused]
EP: He had illness when he was young.
CB: And, one of the tests was what?
EP: Blowing the mercury up because when he wanted to join the air force and he couldn’t do it and he tried three times and passed — he didn’t pass. And then he went down to Britannic to do something to a Beaufighter. And when he went to a dance and there he was given an envelope and in it was a white feather which made him see red. And he went back to Bristol and he got a football bladder and blew that up and blew that up until he thought he was fit to blow, so he went to another you know test. Medical.
CB: RAF one.
EP: And the doctors said, if you blow up the mercury.’ He said, I can’t pass you. ‘I have to pass you.’
GP: ‘I can’t fail you.’
EP: ‘I can’t fail you.’ So he managed to. So he was in. Yeah.
CB: So, he joined the RAF.
EP: Yeah. And did all his training and —
CB: Yeah. So he’s started off at Lord’s as usual.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: And then where did he go?
EP: I suppose, was it Athans?
GP: St Athan I think.
EP: St Athans.
GP: Yes.
CB: In South Wales. Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And what did he go there for?
EP: Training as an engineer or something.
CB: As a —
EP: Engineer. Flight engineer.
GP: Flight engineers. Yes.
EP: And then he joined 166 Squadron. And then after that he went to 153 Squadron.
CB: Ok. And what were they flying?
EP: Lancasters. Yeah.
CB: So, you, what — what did he do when he was flying Lancasters?
GP: Flight engineer.
EP: Yeah. Flight engineer. Looking after all the gear, engines and things.
CB: Right.
GP: [unclear]
CB: How many raids did he go on? Operations.
EP: Well, I think, well they say thirty but I think only twenty seven. But we’ve seen the book.
CB: Right. Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And what happened? What happened to him?
EP: He was killed.
CB: Yeah. But what happened to him?
EP: And then they were put in this —
CB: They flew, they went on a raid. What happened on the raid?
EP: He was shot down by a, by a fighter. And then —
CB: What happened to the crew?
EP: They all, they found six at the time. The same night. But they couldn’t find the seventh. But they found him about four days afterwards.
GP: Buried in the snow.
EP: In the, because it was very snowy.
GP: It had been snowing.
CB: And what was the date of this?
EP: 28th 29th of January 1945.
CB: Ok.
GP: Have you seen a photo of the memorial? Yeah. It’s just above the memorial. On the left is where they actually crashed.
CB: Ok. So where is this?
EP: At Michelbach.
GP: Michelbach.
CB: Which is where?
EP: Near Heidelberg.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah. He was on the raid to Stuttgart.
CB: Right. On the way or on the way back?
EP: On the way there.
CB: Right.
EP: Because he jettisoned the bombs.
EP: Right.
CB: Yeah.
EP: So they’d time to get rid of the bombs.
CB: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Because —
CB: We saw where they all dropped.
EP: Oh really. Ok.
CB: Yeah.
GP: The fellow he, the sort of fellow he was he stayed with the pilot and that’s why really. If he’d have jumped out he’d have probably survived.
EP: None of them survived.
GP: None of them survived. But I think he stayed with the pilot. That was his duty.
EP: I read that the pilot was still alive when they pulled him out but he died afterwards.
CB: So, how did the plan come down then? Did it crash land?
EP: Crashed. Crash landed.
GP: He crashed.
CB: And the pilot controlled, did a controlled landing did he?
EP: I suppose so.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Because he was in the plane.
GP: It’s just above where the memorial is. It’s about —
EP: Yeah.
GP: A quarter of a mile away I suppose. Where it actually crashed.
CB: Who, how does it come to have a memorial there?
EP: Because a German went out for a walk in the woods and came across this bit of — well he said a plane but when Geoff and Philip went out there they said no it wasn’t the plane it was a bit of the bomb. And he decided he was going to do something about it with all these men being killed. And he asked the German army whether they could help. So they said, ‘Well yes. We’ll bring you a stone but you’re not to say anything.’ So this stone was carted there and then he did all the wrought iron on it.
CB: So when was this?
EP: ‘72 or ‘73. ’72.
CB: When did you find out about this?
EP: ‘72. ’72.
CB: How did you find out?
EP: Because Geoff was in the ROC and they got letters in the ROC from the, from the RAF. And his colleagues saw it and rang Geoff up and said there’s a memorial being put up for, you know Bristol, or a Lancaster crew and the name is Jenkinson. Is that anything to do with Evelyn’s, your family because he, because my mother lived here with me and he used to come. Les Coffey and of course he knew her name was Jenkinson. And that’s how we found out.
GP: We wouldn’t have known otherwise. No.
CB: So when we say ROC what does that mean?
GP: ROC. Royal Observer Corps.
EP: Royal Observer.
CB: Ok. Right. So then what? So you get to know about it.
EP: Yes. Yes.
CB: Then what?
EP: And then, well we didn’t do anything about it until ’83 when we went out there to see it.
CB: Why was the, what was the reason for the delay from knowing about it and going to see it?
EP: Well, Philip, Philip was farming and Geoff was working.
GP: Yeah.
EP: And then of course —
CB: So you all wanted to go together. Did you?
EP: Yeah. Well, of course Philip wanted to go out in ’83 because it was forty years.
CB: Yeah.
EP: And that was the reason we had to wait.
CB: So we’re talking about Philip being the brother who is on the earlier part of this tape.
EP: Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
CB: And he was looking, on the fortieth anniversary —
EP: Yeah.
CB: Of his own —
EP: Yeah.
CB: Being shot down.
GP: That’s right.
CB: Although —
EP: Yeah.
CB: Five of the crew survived and only two died in that particular instance.
EP: Two died.
CB: Ok.
EP: Yeah.
CB: So when you went out first time that was at the same, it was the same trip.
EP: Yes.
CB: As when you went to —
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah.
CB: To Philip’s —
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: Site. How far away is it?
EP: Oh quite a while.
GP: Quite a few miles. I should think it’s a hundred.
EP: Two or three hundred miles was it?
GP: A hundred and thirty forty miles.
CB: So which site did you go to first?
GP: We went to where the memorial is didn’t we?
EP: The memorial first.
GP: Yeah.
EP: And then we met Hans.
CB: So, to Peter’s memorial.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And who did you meet there?
EP: Somebody. We don’t know quite know what. Who.
GP: Who was that?
EP: There was a, a teacher who spoke English so he was, you know he said that was he was interpreter. And he told us all about it. You know, about the plane crashing and you know —
GP: Yes. I remember that.
EP: The way the bombs fell and —
CB: How did he know? How did he know that you were coming?
EP: Because Jean wrote a letter.
CB: Jean?
EP: Jean. My sister in law.
CB: Right.
EP: Wrote a letter to Michelbach.
GP: That’s right.
EP: But we didn’t know there were seventeen Michelbachs in Germany and they went to fourteen before it went to the right one. And it’s got the —
CB: You mean in your research you didn’t visit fourteen did you?
EP: No. No [laughs] No.
GP: Yeah.
EP: And then, so they knew we were coming but we didn’t know where we were going and we stopped in this little village and we didn’t know where to go. So, we saw an old girl cleaning her windows. And of course she took a bit longer because watching us. And then Philip took the paper up and showed her the paper and she said, ‘Oh, up there.’ So we went up there and found it. We went to a little hut first of all, house which we didn’t realise was a hotel and he took us down to see the memorial where it was. Yeah.
GP: [unclear]
EP: And then we came back and we came back and we met the burgermeister and met this one and met that one. And we met about seven or eight —
GP: They were very very friendly. Yeah.
CB: They got it all organised.
GP: Yes. They did.
EP: Yes.
CB: And how easy is it to identify? Do people know that it’s there? Or only certain people.
GP: It’s a beauty spot you see.
CB: Is it?
GP: Yeah. And as you drive there is the big car park.
EP: Yes. It’s —
GP: And people park their cars to go and walk through this beauty spot and just past that there’s the memorial right by the road.
CB: So who maintains it?
GP: It was beautiful. Yeah. It’s roped off.
EP: I think the Germans have got to look after it.
GP: They look after it very well.
EP: Because we went out there one day and it wasn’t that good. And I wrote to the War Graves Commission and asked them about it. Anything can be done? No. They only look after one thing. And they’re looking after the graves. They don’t look after a memorial. But I think he must, they must have got something done because the next time we went out there it was sort of painted and looked after.
GP: Beautifully.
EP: So whether they’d got somebody to look after it I don’t know.
CB: So what is the memorial made of?
EP: A big big stone.
GP: A big stone. A very grand stone.
CB: Is it granite? Or what is it?
EP: No. I don’t think so.
GP: No. Not granite.
CB: What colour is it?
GP: Like a sandstone isn’t it? We’ve got a picture of it somewhere haven’t we?
EP: You’ve got a picture there.
CB: And how is the lettering done? Is that painted in or —
EP: No. It’s —
GP: No. I don’t think so. I think it’s —
EP: I don’t know what it —
CB: We’ll have a look in a minute. Yeah. Now, that’s where the memorial is.
EP: Yeah.
CB: And does it attract much attention or people ignore it?
GP: Well, I think it does because it’s a big car park and it’s a beauty spot. The car park’s here and you walk.
EP: And one day, one day when we were there two or three people stopped and had a look at it didn’t they?
GP: Yeah. You go, to go to the walk that they go on to look at the lovely countryside there you have to pass the memorial. It’s right by the road.
CB: So that’s where the memorial is.
EP: Yes.
CB: Where are the bodies of the seven crew buried?
EP: At the War Graves now.
CB: Which is where?
GP: Aglasterhausen? No.
EP: No. Durnbach is it?
GP: Durnbach.
EP: Durnbach.
GP: Durnbach Cemetery.
CB: And how far away is that?
EP: Quite a way. But first of all they were put in their own cemetery.
CB: In the local cemetery. And then they were —
EP: In the local cemetery.
GP: Yeah.
EP: That’s where they went And they had a stone there. And then after that they were taken to the War Graves.
CB: And reinterred there.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
EP: And they’re, they’re seven there and Peter’s two are just there. The same row. You know. Just near.
CB: Oh. So by coincidence —
EP: Yes. Isn’t it? And they were sort of killed eighteen months difference.
CB: So two brothers are buried within rows of each other.
EP: No. Philip’s crew.
CB: Philip’s crew.
EP: But his ashes are out there now.
CB: Peters crew but — yes.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. But the two —
GP: Dug a little hole. About that, square. Right in front of the grave and put —
EP: We weren’t supposed to it but we did.
GP: Some of his ashes.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. So when Peter died —
GP: Pardon?
CB: Sorry. So when Peter died.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Sorry, when Philip died you put him with Peter.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes.
CB: But nearby —
GP: Just —
CB: Are the two —
GP: Right in front of — we’ve got a photograph somewhere. Right in front of the two.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GP: Had a hole like that dug.
CB: What I’m getting at is the two crew from Philip’s —
EP: Yes.
CB: Aircraft are nearby.
EP: Yes. Near. Yes. Different rows.
CB: Right. Ok.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So you went to see that. So that’s thirty years ago. What’s been the, what’s happened in the passage of time?
EP: Oh we’ve been, we’ve been over there several times. We go and see the graves and we go to see the memorial.
GP: Its looked after very well.
EP: They take us around.
GP: Yeah.
EP: We went out, the last time we went out there was in 2012 when we took Peter’s err Philip’s ashes out there.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
GP: Yeah.
EP: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
GP: We met an Englishman didn’t we whose something to do with the graves.
EP: Yes. Well that just why — yes.
GP: Yeah. He suggested it. We’d go and we’d dig a little square hole and we’d put his ashes in there.
CB: While nobody’s looking.
GP: And that’s what we did.
EP: Because Philip wanted all his ashes by his crew.
CB: Yeah.
EP: Not Peter. But it wasn’t allowed.
CB: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Evelyn Paine
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APaineFE160824
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:50:13 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Second generation
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Aglasterhausen
Germany--Munich
Description
An account of the resource
Two of Evelyn Paine’s three brothers joined the RAF. She discusses the service of her brothers Philip Jenkinson and Peter Raeburn Jenkinson. Philip Jenkinson trained as an air gunner. He was was shot down on his tenth operation and after evading for nine days, became a prisoner of war. Peter Jenkinson trained as a flight engineer. He was killed on his 30th operation 28 / 29 January 1945 when the plane was shot down by a night fighter near Michelbach, Germany. Philip and Evelyn visited Germany in the 1980s to visit Peter’s grave and visit the memorial to his memory.
10 Squadron
153 Squadron
166 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
evading
final resting place
flight engineer
Halifax
killed in action
Lancaster
memorial
prisoner of war
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/3454/PMcClementsR15020003.1.jpg
cbd931dca507c3c834e1473ae2fbdbbe
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/3454/AMcClementsR151021.2.mp3
7566254d805d96dea97149125640b82e
Dublin Core
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Title
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McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
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17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McClements, R
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1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: So, this is an interview with Robert McClements. My name is Dan Ellin. It’s taking place on the 21st of the 10th 2015 and we are at Riseholme Hall. So, could you tell me a little bit about your early life and how you came to volunteer for the RAF?
RM: Yes. Coming from Northern Ireland there was no conscription but I volunteered for the Royal Air Force when I was about eighteen or nineteen. Previous to that I’d left school at fourteen. I had to do. My father was unemployed and they wouldn’t give him any benefits. Due to that fact I was told to go to work. I worked for a while in a carpet warehouse. I also worked for a while at a window making company called Crittall. I finished up in the Harland and Wolff shipyard. Built, shipbuilding which I can’t remember how long I was there but I did then join the air force. Went to London to AC Receiving Depot. And consequently up to Bridlington in North Yorkshire for some training and that started my air force career. Stop it there.
[recording paused]
DE: So just paused it for a second. Just started again.
RM: Yeah.
DE: Bridlington.
RM: Bridlington. We did more training there. Marching about. Morse code. Etcetera. And finally we went on leave and were posted to Bridgnorth. That was the first time we saw a machine gun which was a Browning 303 and a few turrets. And spent a while getting used to that and shooting them. That went for about six to eight weeks and then we went on leave. From leave we went, I went to Lossiemouth in Scotland where we crewed up with the rest of the crew apart from the flight engineer. My other gunner was a chappie from Southern Ireland who unfortunately got ill and didn’t complete the course. And I then picked up with a chap called Webb as my additional gunner. We went on leave from Lossiemouth — down to, now then, I’ve forgotten.
DE: It’s alright.
RM: That’s that. Yes. So from Lossiemouth we went down to Riccall in Yorkshire where as a crew we then had the pilots being used to four–engined aircraft. We spent time there passing the usual tests and what have you. And finally were posted to 10 Squadron at Melbourne. Just south of York. Finish that for now. On the squadron obviously we were there to do a job. Consequently, after at least a fortnight, three weeks, being retrained again I would say. We did bombing. Machine gunning to the sea. Etcetera. And cross country before the pilot himself was sent on what we called a dickey trip with a crew. To get experience of what he was going to take us into. We then started flying and our first one or two trips were reasonably easy. They were daylight into France. Bomb sites. Troop concentrations and such like. And then consequently we flew on from there and did a full tour including quite a few daylight trips and quite a lot of night trips. We didn’t go to Berlin. We did all the runs in the tour. The Essen [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of the damned place. Anyway, we did all the places in the Ruhr that had to be done.
DE: Yeah. They’ll all be in your logbooks though. That’s fine.
RM: Yeah. They’re in the logbooks.
JM: Chemnitz.
RM: Chemnitz. That was the farthest one we went. That was a long way into Germany. And various other bits and pieces that we had done. But, as I say, the logbooks had them all in. We had a few run ins with ack–ack fire like everybody did. We had a run in with searchlights once. We had a run in with icing up on the wings which was a little bit serious since we fell out of the sky. And due to the pilot and the engineer getting their feet on the dash and heaving on the [laughs]
JM: Stick.
RM: We managed to pull out.
DE: Can you tell me a bit more about that?
RM: Well, it all happens very quickly when these things happens. You haven’t time to think about it. First thing we knew was we heard the ice bouncing off the fuselage. And then Bob said, ‘It’s getting a bit dodgy up here. We’re icing badly. Bale out.’ Well, as soon as he said, ‘Bale out,’ I got out of my cockpit — out of my turret but by that time we were going straight down. I couldn’t move. I was stuck to the floor. But eventually he put the engines through the gate full bore and him and the engineer — they didn’t pull the stick out but they had a real good go at pulling at it and eventually we got out. And that was it. We flew home quite happily.
JM: The plane never flew again did it?
RM: Well the engineer said that the plane was scrapped. I don’t know. I didn’t see it in the scrap heap. But it got a nasty shake up same as we all did. And that was it. That was about the main bits that stand out on the time I flew. Apart from once when we landed on FIDO. Well, most people know what FIDO is. It’s two strips of fire down each side of the runway. It’s very easy to not see it. It sounds silly that but flying up to it we knew FIDO was lit but we didn’t see it until we were pretty close to it because obviously we were in dense fog. Anyway, we got up to it and made a landing. It was a little bit [pause] I think the pilot’s main trouble was settling the kite down in the heat. Anyway, we landed alright. No problem. And that was it. Finished.
DE: They were, they were your two most memorable spots.
RM: Yeah. That was about the most of it. The rest was the usual thing of a bit of ack–ack here and ack –ack there. It was all in a day’s work wasn’t it?
DE: What was, what was that like? Being, being shot at with ack–ack?
RM: Well, at night time it wasn’t so bad because bang, you were past it and it was gone. But in daytime you could see where, if they were getting close to you. Which is a little bit hairy when you say, ‘Well that was six hundred yards away.’ And the next one’s two hundred. You’re waiting for the next one. So you got the nose down then. You were dropping down pretty quick. Anyway, we got away with it. And that was we never able to predict what they had but we were fortunate. They hadn’t enough guns to hit us. Two guns might have managed it but not one.
DE: I see. Some people talked about Scarecrows. Did you ever come across any of those?
RM: Well the word got around there were Scarecrows but I never met anybody that actually say they saw a scarecrow. Sorry. Saw a Scarecrow explode. Usually, when there was a big enough bang like that it was an aircraft that was going up. That was it.
DE: Did you see any of those?
RM: Oh yeah. Well, there was a war on [laughs] yeah. Not a lot but enough.
DE: You mentioned searchlights as well.
RM: Well, we had a run in. We were very fortunate with the searchlights. We were, we were coned. Well, we weren’t actually coned. We were hit by one searchlight and followed by another one. So we had two but by a little bit of colour fudging on the pilot’s part, don’t ask me what he did. But he went up and down. We were out of it and that’s it. We didn’t worry about why we missed them. Or they missed us. We were off.
DE: Ok. And thankful for it.
RM: That was it. Yeah.
DE: You were a gunner. So did you, did you see fighters at all?
RM: Only on three occasions and there was no occasion when I was inclined to go for a fight. They were carrying cannons. We were carrying 303s. So I kept out of the way.
DE: How did you do that?
RM: I didn’t tell the pilot I saw it. Or anybody. It was there above us but nobody could see it and I could see it and I thought as long as he’s there it’s not going to trouble us. That was it.
DE: Right. I can’t say I blame you.
RM: [laughs] No. It was a fool’s game to try and shoot at an 88. I mean all they had to do was get that close, so anyway And several other times I’ve seen fighters and they weren’t going to bother us so I didn’t bother them.
DE: Yeah.
RM: I’d no intention to.
DE: We’ve interviewed other, other gunners who said exactly the same thing as that.
RM: Yeah. I’m glad I’m not alone in that one. No. That was a fool’s game to try and — if you had to fight them you would do but you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t engage in the fight. But there it is. You had to have a go anyway. But nine times out of ten it would be too late. I mean he was shooting from four hundred yards. We’d got two hundred yards. It wasn’t a battle was it?
DE: So do you think he hadn’t seen you or he wasn’t interested?
RM: Well, he was above us. He wasn’t interested. He was, at that time they had upward firing guns so if I could see him he couldn’t see me. So, he was after somebody else. Or in a bomber stream looking for somebody else because we didn’t realise for a while what they were doing. This upward firing gun. I mean rear gunners initially were for, that was the idea. They were coming behind which they did do. Until they got this clever idea. And all they shot at then was your starboard wing which had all the gubbins in it. And once they’d hit the wing they knew they had you. That was it.
DE: So were you the, were you the rear gunner?
RM: No. Mid–upper.
DE: You were mid–upper.
RM: Very exposed. Most people had a bit of tin around them. We had nothing. Perspex.
DE: Yeah. And sitting on top of a big target as well.
RM: Well, sitting on the bomb [laughs] I knew one thing. It would be quick when it happened [laughs]
DE: Did your, did your pilot fly you straight and level or did you do —
RM: No. We went straight and level. We didn’t mess about. If you were going to start weaving about like they did it’s quicker to go that way then that way.
DE: Sure.
RM: No. We’d no fancy ideas of what we were going to do or what we were going to do. We had to fly there and fly back as quick and as quietly as possible. That was it. No chit chat in the crew. Once we were in the plane and we were up in the air that was it. We didn’t chat to each other or natter about. It was business.
DE: What was, what was your crew like?
RM: They were good. We had a good crew. We’d no — let’s put it this way there was no one — anyone ever said, ‘We’ll have to get rid of him. He’s no good.’ We were all — well, how should I put it? We all got on well together. There was never a crossed word in any of the crew. Or any dispute.
DE: Did you socialise together when you weren’t flying?
RM: Not a lot. We did occasionally. I did more socialising with my friend Pepper who was in another crew. How we met we were going to have [laughs] we were going to fight. Him and I. I’ve forgotten what it was. But we’re good friends. And that’s it. Him and I did most of our trips in to York. Although occasionally I would take the engineer. Les. He would come with us. He got quite friendly with my girlfriend’s family did Les. But the rest of the crew were, well the Canadians. The officer. He was an officer was the pilot so he spent most of his time obviously in the officer’s quarters. But we’d go out occasionally for a drink but not — we wouldn’t make a habit like people think we were out boozing every night. We weren’t. When we went out we had a drink or two but we didn’t make a big habit of being every – like my granddaughter said one day, ‘Well, you were always drunk grandad.’ I said, ‘What do you mean we was always drunk,’ I said, ‘You listen to the wrong people. So we never flew when we had a drink. If we were flying we never had a drink.
DE: Apart from when you finished?
RM: Oh when we finished we finished up in the — we didn’t land at our base. When we finished we finished up in a place called Mepal. Which I think was a New Zealand crowd.
DE: Yes. In Norfolk or Suffolk. Yeah.
RM: Yeah. And I vaguely remember at 3 o’clock in the morning in the local fire station with a crate of beer [laughs] I don’t know if I’ve got it written down. Don’t ask me what time we took off next morning or where. How we flew home but we did. And Les, our engineer had a grand getting the rest of the kite started with the trolley acc. Taking the — to get them started. The camp we were on seemed very quiet and not very communicative. So that’s how we got home.
JM: You flew around a bit didn’t you over the aerodrome when you got back?
RM: Well, we just flew around once or twice but not like some of them did. Several would land and they were taking all the toilet rolls we had in the mess and then when came back they threw them all out over the station.
DE: That was a celebration.
RM: That was a celebration. Yeah.
DE: Yeah. For finishing the tour.
RM: Right.
DE: Wonderful. You were telling me earlier about the time when you had some hang ups.
RM: Well, one time we were bombs away. I think it was the engineer used to go and just check they’d all gone. And on one occasion he found that two of the smaller bombs hadn’t gone. So he shouted to me to come and give him a hand and he’d opened a hole somewhere on the floor above the bombs and we started trying to let them go. Which we did. I had an axe and he had a hammer or something and we — but we didn’t hit — we hit something to make them move. And eventually we got them away. Don’t ask me how we did but we — they fell.
DE: And was that over, over Europe or over the sea? Or —
RM: That was somewhere over Germany. Well just off the target. We did away. We tried. We checked them straightaway that they were all gone.
DE: Yeah.
RM: So that’s, that’s what we did. We managed. We loosened them one way or another. I wouldn’t say it was efficient engineering.
JM: What about the hang up when you flew around again.
RM: That wasn’t a hang–up that. Well that was a hang up and the bombers aimers problem. He hadn’t pressed the button or the button wasn’t working. On a daylight. And he didn’t say, ‘Bombs away.’ He said, ‘Oh. Sorry Bob,’ That was the captain. He said, ‘We’ve still got the bombs on.’ So, I don’t know whether Bob said it or the bomb aimer said it but, ‘We’ll have to go around again.’ Which wasn’t a good idea. It was a daylight and as you realise everybody is going in. Straight on then off home to the right. We’d go around this way. There’s only us there. Another bomber stream is over doing their job. So when we got about a quarter of the way around and they started predicting. Fortunately, as I said before they’ve only one gun. So when they shot the first time it would be about, I should think, half a mile away. A long way off. The second one was nearer. And the fourth one was nearer still. So, I think we all said at the same time, ‘For Christ’s sake Bob, get us out of here ‘cause the next one is going to hit us.’ So he did. He put the nose down and we, we got out. That was it. There’s not a lot more. Well there’s nothing more.
DE: Well.
RM: That’s enough.
DE: I’ve got some more questions I’d really like to ask you. The, you’ve been very kind in bringing in your collection of photographs and your logbook. I’d really like you to talk a little bit about the model.
RM: Well, the model aircraft that I have was made by a German prisoner of war at Melbourne. At that time I was in the station warrant officer’s office. I’d finished flying. And like most aircrew at that time, well all aircrew, were posted off the camp. But in our case, the engineer, myself and my other gunner were kept back on the camp. Odd bods. I was sent on a fire, I was sent on a fire officer’s course to a station somewhere near Hull. And when I come back they said, ‘Well you’re the station fire officer now.’ So I went down to the fire station. I had a walk around. Walked out again. I thought well it’s alright. The flight sergeant had been a flight sergeant fireman for the last ten years, I think. So I left it to him. That was the fire officer. We were that time then I went into the station warrant officer’s office. The station warrant officer had been posted elsewhere so my flight engineer and myself were more or less supposedly in control of the office. If you can call aircrew in charge of an office a wise thing to do, fair enough. But we ran it. He ran it. I didn’t. At this time I was involved with my wife in York. So I could spend a lot of time in York. Not being at Melbourne. But on a telephone call I would be back in the camp in half an hour. And if they wanted to know where I was I was on ack site which was about four miles away. Inspecting it.
DE: Right. Ok.
RM: That was it.
DE: Yeah. So tell me about the model.
RM: The model. We were on what they call a site inspection one day. That was going around the billets checking that everything was in order and everything was tidy and there was no, anybody lurking there that shouldn’t have been. And in the corner of the Nissen hut there was a small unit where I think at one time there used to be a corporal in charge of the Nissen hut. But in this case it was empty. And there’s a table and a chap behind it and I couldn’t see him for shavings. And I thought what the heck’s he doing here. And there was another aircraft, RAF chap with him. So he could speak English. I said, ‘What’s he up to?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He’s making this for the [pause] one of the officers.’ ‘What is it?’ He said, ‘A Catalina.’ And I looked at it with a half made Catalina in wood in front of him. So I thought it was a damned good idea if he made a Halifax. Which he did.
DE: A German prisoner of war.
RM: A German prisoner of war that did it. And as I say, he made it out of, I don’t know, scrap from a camp scrapyard. There was nothing else. What he had as tools I have no idea. I should have been a bit more interested in it at the time but I wasn’t. I just gave him the order. Do a Halifax for me. Which he did. As you can see now. And that was it.
DE: And it’s your Halifax.
RM: Yeah.
DE: Yeah.
RM: Yeah. No one else got one.
DE: No. but it’s a model of your aircraft.
RM: Yes. Even the number on it is right. ZAV. Yeah. That’s it.
DE: And the scrap that it’s made from — where do you think that came from?
RM: The camp scrapyard. Nowhere else.
DE: So you think the Perspex is —
RM: It’s off a Halifax or somewhere.
DE: And the same with the bit of aluminium.
RM: Yeah. And the guns you can see are nails. I don’t know whether they was ever in a Halifax but he got them somewhere. Yeah. Including the piece of aluminium that the names are on. That’s off a Halifax somewhere. It’s got to be. Don’t ask me how he managed to do the nails. I don’t know how he did it. Marvellous.
DE: Yeah. It is wonderful. Yeah.
RM: Yeah.
DE: What did he charge you?
RM: He didn’t charge me anything [laughs] I was in charge of him.
DE: Oh right. So it was an order. Make me one.
RM: Yes. It was an order. Well it wasn’t an order not in that sense. I just said can you make me one? I wasn’t going to — at knife point. Oh well that’s another tail isn’t it? I don’t think it wants to go on their though.
DE: What’s that?
RM: We were in the mess one night. Drinking. This was after, I wasn’t flying then and we had some of our people. Air force aircrew that had been prisoners of war were back on the camp. So we were having a drink. You know. Enjoying a drink. I remember George. George, the lad, came from Birmingham. He said, ‘They’ll be having some booze up there.’ I said, ‘Who?’ He said, ‘The prisoners who are up there in the Nissen hut.’ I said ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘They’ll have a good brew going you know.’ I said, ‘So what?’ He said, ‘Making all sorts of beer and wine and stuff.’ I said, ‘So what?’ He said, ‘Do you want to go and have a bloody look at it?’ Well, he said, ‘We ought to raid it.’ Anyway, we finished up, about four of us down where they were in the Nissen hut. Somebody dragged a table out and put a chair on it, says, ‘Have a look through that hole in the roof. That flap.’ So I said, ‘Alright.’ So I went up and looked and right enough he was right. There was all sorts of buckets and tins with various stuff bubbling and squeezing around in it. ‘Yeah. It looks alright to me.’ So I put it down again. He said, ‘What are you going to do?’ I said, ‘I’m not doing nothing.’ Which disappointed him.
DE: Right.
RM: He thought I was going to throw it all out. I thought, ‘Bugger that. They’re happy enough doing that. It’ll keep them out of mischief.’ So I went back to the mess and started drinking again. He wasn’t very happy but I thought, why do it?
DE: Yeah. Why. Why indeed.
RM: They were drinking. They were making a bit of beer. They weren’t making any problems. I thought I couldn’t make any as good at that [laughs] so that was it.
DE: Yeah. Wonderful. So after you did your, your tour and you were working in the station fire department.
RM: Well, I wasn’t there very often to be honest with you. I mean they knew more about fires than I did.
DE: Right. Yeah. When were you eventually demobbed?
RM: ’45 I think it was. To be honest with you I’m not quite sure. That book that I’ve got that the chappy is looking at now. It’s in there.
DE: Service book.
RM: Yeah.
DE: Yeah.
RM: Yeah so, I — that was a rather funny thing. When I went to join the air force as aircrew. I wouldn’t have done anything else. If I hadn’t wanted to fly in the air force I wouldn’t have, I’d have gone back home. Anyway, I got flying and I remember as well they said to me, the officer in charge at Belfast, ‘When do you want to go?’ So I thought to myself, when do I want to go? I had a few pounds to spend. ‘Oh. Next Monday. Monday week.’ So he said, ‘Alright.’ At the end of my time I was on Melbourne until more or less the camp was closed down. And the time came for me to be moved to another camp. So I was sent a travel warrant somewhere down south. To be honest with you I’ve forgotten the name of it. It was well down south. So, when you joined the air force then when you went in you had a chit to say you were signing in. And one to sign you were singing out. Well, I had one for signing out and I was going around and into the office. It must have been a station warrant officer sort of thing. Thinking back now. I had my chit to sign in and it was a WAAF who was in charge. So she looked at it and she said [pause] she saw my demob number on it which was well over the time. She said, ‘You should have been out.’ Well, I knew I was. I said, ‘Yes. I should be.’ And do you know what she says to me? ‘When do you want to go?’ [laughs] exactly the same as when I’d joined up. ‘When do you want to go?’ I said ‘I’ll go now.’ So I went round that camp with signing in and signing out and then I was posted up to near Blackpool. I’ve forgotten the name of the place now. There was a place near Blackpool where everybody got demobbed. And that was it. So that was how I got out.
DE: Ok. I’d like to talk a little bit about what you did after the war but if we can just go, go back. You were working in shipyards in —
RM: Harland and Wolff’s. Yeah. Belfast.
DE: You didn’t have to. There was no conscription for you. You didn’t have to volunteer.
RM: No.
DE: Why? Why did you want to join the RAF.
RM: I wanted to fly. I’d always wanted to fly. My mother knitted me air force blue cardigans and things. I don’t know why I wanted to fly. Never actually bothered about actually flying but I wanted to be in the air. So I thought well I’ll join the air force. And that was it.
DE: It wasn’t anything to do with playing a part in the war.
RM: Well, we had been bombed in Belfast. A lot of people don’t know that. We had been bombed probably once or twice. I think they were trying to hit the shipyard but they dropped one or two bombs. They didn’t interfere much with the production of ships. So [pause] yes that was why I really wanted to join. I just wanted to fly. I thought I would join the air force. They fly. And I got [pause] sorted out with the aircrew in Belfast and they sent us down to London and the usual thing went on.
DE: Yeah.
RM: But that was the only reason. I just wanted to fly.
DE: What was, what was your trade in the shipyards? What were you doing?
RM: I was working with the shipwrights and welding. It was a sort of a bits of all sorts in those times it was. The war was on and anything that was being done was being done. So I did a bit of this and a bit of that.
DE: Ok. Did you witness any of the bombing of Belfast?
RM: I did. Yes. Yes.
DE: What was that like?
RM: It wasn’t very nice [laughs] we lived quite near to the shipyard and my experience bombing I realised that they were undershooting the target. So they dropped, I think, a few odd bombs on the shipyard but they didn’t hit any of the slipways or do any damage like that. No, they ripped a bit out of Belfast which wasn’t a very nice. I mean at that age that I was then I’d never been bombed before. It was just one of those unknown things. You don’t, you don’t realise just at the time what’s going on. You know a lot of bombs dropping and banging but it’s just, you know, you just take it. We had to go down to the country to my mother’s place for I don’t know, about a month I think. While the house we lived in was knocked in to shape. It was mainly glass windows and an odd door blown off but the house was still all in one piece. So it wasn’t what you would call bad.
DE: Where were you at the time when that happened?
RM: At that time they’d built air raid shelters in the street. I don’t know why but they did. The houses obviously weren’t going to be strong enough so they built air raid shelters on the road outside the house. Just brick walls and a concrete roof and that was it. Nothing else inside.
DE: And that’s where you were when you were bombed?
RM: That’s where we were when we were bombed.
DE: Ok. Having, having experienced that what did you think about the job that you were doing in the RAF and in Bomber Command?
RM: I thought it would be a good idea to hit them back. Basically that was what it was all about. Getting back. Getting at the Germans. Because I do remember one of the interviews I had for aircrew. Would I like to go to Japan or Germany? And I straightaway said Germany. So I must have had something against the Germans mustn’t I [laughs]
DE: Ok. I see. So, we jump back about why, why you joined up. If we can just take you back to your time on operations. What was it like on, in the squadron when you—?
RM: The squadron itself was alright. We had no problems with anyone on the squadron. We didn’t, we didn’t appear to have any heavy losses. So, there was nothing. Nothing ever mentioned about oh this is bloody awful or anything. It was, it was — how shall I put this. I was nineteen. First time let loose. So there was nothing to cause me any problems. You know, there was, it was just, it was a way of living. It was like being a cowboy isn’t it? You had to go shooting people up, that’s it, you could. You could shoot them. So we went and bombed Germany. Got our own back. No. We had a good squadron. It was — listening to other squadrons or what people had done and how they were being handled we were very fortunate at 10 Squadron. We had good — good officers. They were all good. I mean, they didn’t change them very often but when they did we always had good officers every time. An officer flew with you as well. I mean, I mean a lot of them were officers but even group captains. If you look at my logbook I think we flew — oh no it wasn’t me. It was [pause] the other — Canadian flew with a group captain as a pilot. They were good. There were no problems. Food was good as well. People say the food wasn’t — you know. People talk about food. We always, we were very fortunate. We supposedly all tell these tales about we had a chef from one of the main hotels in London. He might have been. I don’t know. But we always ate the food. There was no problem eating. We got the best. That was 10 Squadron. We were special [yeah] yeah. And that’s it.
JM: You had special dental care didn’t you as well?
RM: Pardon?
JM: You had special dental care.
RM: Oh yes. Yes. I forgot about that. If you wanted to go to the dentist you always went in the afternoon. Because he ate in the mess at lunchtime got a few whiskies in to him. Steady his hands.
DE: That sounds good.
RM: Well it does good if you went in the afternoon.
DE: Yeah. So apart from the dentist did you have anything to do with the medical officer at all?
RM: Only once. When we were at Riccall converting on to Halifaxes. They thought we were, they slowed down a bit, they hadn’t enough aeroplanes so the aircrew were a bit backed up. So they decided we wanted toughening up so we’d go on a commando course which was really, wasn’t really a full commando course. But a bit of marching about and climbing over sticks and mud and consequently you had to wear boots. Well, at that time we were wearing shoes and the boots we got to go on this commando course of course were somebody else’s boots. Had done the week before. So they were big and they were damp and I got a couple of blisters on my heels. So I thought I’ll report sick. Get out of this. So I reported sick and got out my heels to the doctor my blisters. Then it was [M&D Medicine and Duty]. So I didn’t go sick again.
DE: Right. It wasn’t worth it.
RM: And I never wore second hand boots ever in my life again.
DE: Yeah. I can’t say I blame you. Well unless you can think of anything else to tell me about the time when you were in the RAF in service I’d like to ask you to tell me about —
RM: Well, no, there’s stuff that [I won’t go into] at that time I was running a little old motorbike that I got from my father in law and petrol was rationed. But if you knew where the sump was on the FIDO you could find petrol. Didn’t do the engine much good but it ran on it.
DE: Were they using aviation fuel for FIDO then? So it was high octane.
RM: Well, I was on a two stroke at the time. I think it would have run on anything. But they did tell me that some of it was very high grade. But I thought to myself that most of it would be paraffin, but the experts said no. It was petrol. So I wouldn’t dispute it one way or the other. But what I got I ran on it.
DE: I don’t blame you.
RM: Yeah. Saying that the chap that got it for me he told me that he got it out of the FIDO. He may have got it out of the transport section. I didn’t ask the question.
DE: Yeah. It was just to keep your bike running.
RM: Just keep it running.
DE: So that’s how you could get in to York.
RM: Yeah.
DE: And back out again in —
RM: No trouble. Yeah.
DE: Wonderful. So what, what did you do when you were finally demobbed?
RM: When I was finally demobbed I went [pause] back to Ireland. I went back home. I don’t know how long I was at home to be honest with you. I’d met my wife in the meantime but I wasn’t married then. I wouldn’t have got married while I was flying. Anyway, I finished up back in York and I worked for my future wife’s father who was in the motor business at that time. And I’d just bought a boat to live on. And one of the first jobs I got there was going to the headquarters of 6 Group at Allerton Park on the Great North Road. They had Nissen huts that were being pulled down. And the Nissen huts had been fed the electricity on the proper thick electricity wires.
DE: Cables.
RM: You know. The cables. So my first job was to take two men. Pick up, and go to Allerton Park and dig up three hundred yards of that electric cable. And then take it back to York and have them dig a trench on the riverside down to where his boat was moored. Because at that time the electricity people wouldn’t or couldn’t do it themselves. So being a man of action that he was he said, ‘Well, if we put the wires in will you connect them?’ And they said they would. So I organised that. It was quite a job. While I was there the lord of the manor himself, Lord — what the hell do they call him now? Lord —
JM: Mowbray.
RM: Lord Mowbray come down. He was an old man then. These two fellas. And I’m in the ditch as well. Giving them a hand to get this out. And he says, ‘Young man. What are you doing there?’ ‘What are we doing? We’re digging a bloody cable out.’ I said. No. I didn’t say it that way. I said, ‘We’re just removing this cable.’ ‘Oh’ And that’s it. Off we went. So we did that. When you think of it. Taking up the cable and taking it back and putting it down. Now they'd have a squad of men and an army of post with signs on it not to touch.
DE: Yeah.
RM: Yeah. That’s how I did it then. Yes, I’ll give the corporation their due in York. They connected both ends. No problem. And put it on to the boat with all you wanted on the boat then. We didn’t have to worry about having our own power line. Consequently moved in to the business end with the — well I worked for him. I didn’t move in to it. I worked for him for quite a while. And Iris, my wife–to–be she worked with him as well. Worked for him for quite a while and then we decided that enough was enough and we’d go off on our own to a place called Wakefield. So we started up in Wakefield and that was it.
DE: What were you doing there?
RM: Selling motor cars and motorbikes.
DE: Right.
RM: So that kept me going for quite a while. Well, until I retired. And that was it.
DE: Smashing. Thank you. A couple more things that sort of intrigued me that I’d like you to go back to if that’s ok. Can you explain how, well how you met your wife and why you wouldn’t marry while you were still flying.
RM: Well anybody flying in Bomber Command was a fool to get married. Which was, which was the case of my brother Taffy who went missing. He wasn’t flying in the war then but he was flying and he left a youngster of about six months old behind him. So she had her hands full to start. That’s the way I looked at it. No. That was why I didn’t get married when I was flying. That was, I thought, this is a fool’s game. You know. We didn’t have big losses but you knew there was one missing there and one here, one there. I thought, well that’s [pause] that’s no job. So I left it.
DE: How did you deal with that?
RM: People missing? Just part of the job you know. You’ve got to get back to you’re nineteen. You know. You’re not, you haven’t a lot of worry in your head like if you were married you had. But I hadn’t. I wasn’t married. I had no worries in my head. I hadn’t have to worry about anybody. So it didn’t matter to me.
DE: Ok.
RM: I’m bomb proof. An odd chap. You could see sometimes you’d think he’s worried. He’s [pause] he could be he could be a fella for the chop. And you weren’t always right but sometimes you were right. You could more or less — as if they realised that they were on a number. You don’t know.
DE: Did you have any lucky charms or rituals that you—?
RM: All I had was [pause] I bought it myself funnily enough. A green scarf. Now, I’m an Orangeman and to buy a green scarf in Belfast you were either a Protestant or you’re Catholic. I don’t know why but I bought this brilliant deep green scarf. And I always wore that. So maybe that was a charm. I don’t know. Well I’ve still got it haven’t I?
JM: You have. You lent it to me.
RM: He borrowed it to go on his Peking – Paris rally.
JM: It still works you know. Got me out of a few scrapes on the rally. Especially when the engine blew up. I needed your scarf a lot.
RM: Yeah.
DE: Had you, had you bought it to be something to take with you all the time or was it something you wanted —?
RM: No. I took it for all the time. To get all my gear on at night. You always got bare around the neck so I used to have the scarf tied around my neck.
DE: Did any of the other people on your crew have —?
RM: Yes. The wireless operator had a little teddy bear thing that he had. He talked about that and always looked after it but the rest of the crew I don’t think any of them did. If they had they didn’t say. No. Bob always the pilot used to have a packet or a box of two hundred cigarettes in his battledress pocket. I often thought, ‘If you bale out Bob they’re not going to be there when you landed.’ [laughs] But why worry him.
DE: Fair enough. That’s smashing. Thank you. One question that we ask most of the people that we interview. What are your feelings about the way Bomber Command has been remembered over the past seventy years?
RM: Well up to Green Park it wasn’t remembered at all. That’s the only thing recently that brought in to people’s attention. That was the initial one but I think this one that we’ve got going now in Lincoln I think is a better idea really. The one in Green Park is good but I think what they’re doing here in Lincoln is going to be better because they’re going to build a monument and there’s going to be a Garden of Remembrance where people can walk. And I think it’s more, shall I say, homely. It’s a better feeling for people to go and be able to walk. I’m not saying that because I’m talking to you and you’re going to give me front page [laughs] but that’s what I mean.
DE: Yeah.
RM: I don’t know what —
DE: We might give you front page now you’ve said that on the tape.
RM: Yeah. No. But that’s what I think. The idea I’ve looked at that going to have that building. The Chadwick building. That’s going to be a good idea It’s there on the sight and also you’re going to have a Garden of Remembrance with grass and flowers and things. I think that’s, I think that’s a good thing.
DE: Wonderful. So thank you very much. Unless you can think of anything else you want to tell me we’ll draw that to a close.
RM: No. I think you’ve got it all there.
[pause]
RM: No. I think that’s more than I thought I could remember.
DE: Ok. Well you’ve done fantastic. You’ve talked for just over fifty minutes. What normally happens is I’ll press stop and —
JM: Oh I’ve just thought of something.
RM: Yeah. Yeah. No. I think I’ve got it pretty well buttoned down there.
DE: That’s wonderful. Thank you very very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AMcClementsR151021
Title
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Interview with Robert McClements. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
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00:51:23 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Date
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2015-10-21
Description
An account of the resource
Robert McClements grew up in Northern Ireland and after working in various jobs he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He flew a tour of operations as a mid upper gunner with 10 Squadron. He discusses the model of his aircraft that a German prisoner of war made for him.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Northern Ireland
Northern Ireland--Belfast
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Chemnitz
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Chris Cann
10 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
arts and crafts
bombing
demobilisation
FIDO
Halifax
memorial
prisoner of war
RAF Melbourne
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1876/34463/MTerryD938465-170619-06.2.pdf
6777c53104849b86c3b00714a6303b43
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Terry, Dennis
D Terry
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Terry, D
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. The collection concerns Corporal Dennis Terry (938465 Royal Air Force) and contains documents and photographs. He served as a fitter with 166 Squadron and worked on Lancaster ME746 AS-R2 (Roger Squared).
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Rob Terry and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Corporal Dennis.G.Terry – Fitter IIA Airframe
[squadron crest] 10 Squadron – RAF Leeming 1941 [photograph]
Early in 1941 a 10 Squadron Whitley bomber returning from OPS, landed at RAF Waddington damaging its tail resulting in the bomber being grounded.
I was sent along with other tradesmen and a replacement tail section by road to repair the aircraft and return it to serviceable flight. On arrival at RAF Waddington we were issued with "Temporary Meal Permit" for the airmen's mess.
I am returning this pass to you a little late, for some reason it was never handed back after the repairs to the Whitley bomber were completed.
While waiting for the aircrew to fly us back to RAF Leeming I decided to have a look around the hangers, I looked into one hanger via a side door and noticed a yellow marked four engined bomber with a large "P" roundel on it, I was then approached by an armed guard who promptly told me to leave as this hanger was "Out of Bounds". I realised later when the Lancaster entered RAF service that this aircraft was in fact the Lancaster bomber prototype.
A few months later Lancaster's operated out of RAF Waddington with 44 Squadron.
This memory of my visit to RAF Waddington has stayed with me all these years.
Dennis.
[picture]
[page break]
1941 – Airman’s Mess Pass
Kindly Donated by Dennis Terry
1941 – Airmen’s Mess Pass
Donated by Dennis Terry
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Corporal Dennis Terry - Fitter IIA Airframe
Description
An account of the resource
A note explaining the return of a Temporary Meal Permit Pass.
Creator
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Dennis Terry
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Format
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Two printed sheets
Identifier
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MTerryD938465-170619-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
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Peter Bradbury
10 Squadron
44 Squadron
fitter airframe
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
mess
RAF Leeming
RAF Waddington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/350/3521/PWildR1602.2.jpg
66cc0642d6d7959abaceda5bbae117ec
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/350/3521/AWildR160224.2.mp3
5975d4c3de0bd63b6e78bb45cd3db876
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wild, Ralph
R Wild
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Ralph Wild (b. 1918, 941581 and 184464 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-02-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wild, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrooke, for the Bomber Command Association. I am with Flying Officer Ralph Wild on the 24th of February 2016. We’re in Sheffield but Ralph lives in Canada and we’re doing the interview in Sheffield. So. Ralph, I know we’re in Sheffield, and you’re in Canada.
RW: Yes.
GR: Was you born in Sheffield?
RW: No I was born in Rotherham. Rotherham, Yorkshire. Kimbolton, Rotherham, Yorkshire. 27th of September 1918. And, um —
GR: Just as World War One was finishing.
RW: I was actually in — I was in two World Wars. That’s right.
GR: Yeah.
RW: So I was in the First World War and the Second. Ok. Well in 1938, the present — the Prime Minister of Britain, Neville Chamberlain, went over to see Hitler and thought that he was armed to the teeth and we of course, between the wars, had been demobilising and had nothing whatsoever. Particularly fighters. And so he saw there was a real problem, so he had to correct this. Anyway he got Hitler to give him the Peace Treaty which came back waving Peace and saying, ‘Peace in my time.’ So as soon as he got back again, his aim was to buy time. He knew he couldn’t cope with Germany the way they were right then. And actually, between 1938 and 1939, they built six hundred Hurricanes and Spitfires which the Germans knew nothing about. They thought we were flying all kinds of aircraft but nothing of the air quality, what they had, 109s, you see. And that really was the difference between the Battle of Britain. Losing or winning. That’s what it amounted to. Anyway, they also realised that they had no personnel to supervise the planes and everything else like that, so he brought about Conscription. So anybody that was the age of twenty was automatically conscripted into the Army. And of course, I was one of those. So I went to Derby, I think it was.
GR: I’ll just back-track a little bit to before you was conscripted. So, born in Rotherham. Brothers? Sisters?
RW: I have, I have two sisters. I’m the youngest of three children.
GR: Right.
RW: My sister Nora was born in 1912. My second sister was born in 1915. And I was born in 1918. We’re all three years apart.
GR: Yep.
RW: So I was the baby in the family. Of those two girls. Yeah.
GR: And did you grow up in the Rotherham area?
RW: Yes, yes. I did all my education in the Rotherham area. And then I worked for the Municipality. The County Borough of Rotherham.
GR: Right.
RW: That’s where I worked when I graduated. Anyway, coming back to the thing there. So I went to see them in the army and I said I wanted to join the air force. You could volunteer for the air force and the navy but you weren’t conscripted.
GR: That’s right, yeah.
RW: So. The army didn’t get deferred. So they said, [unclear], nothing to do with us [unclear]. So they deferred me, so I wasn’t called up until later. All my friends that I’d gone to school with had all gone in the army, you see. So I was the only one that went in the air force. But it was a really good thing because I went in, but of course, going in at that level, I could only go, I was only going in for six months you see. And so you couldn’t obviously go for air crew or what-have-you. It was impossible. So I go before the Attestation Officer and he says, ‘What do you know about the barometer?’ I say, ‘You want the Kew or the Fortin type?’ He looks at me and he says, ‘You mean there’s two, son?’ [laughs] This was an officer. I says, ‘Yes.’ He says, ‘Knowledge like that, you’re an instrument repairer.’ So he asked me one question in the air force and I became an instrument repairer. So I became an instrument repairer. So they immediately transferred me and I went to Cranwell. I learnt to become and instrument repairer at Cranwell. So that’s how the whole thing started. Aye, when War started on September the 3rd, I immediately volunteered for air crew. But they wouldn’t accept me for air crew because I was fully-trained ground crew. And ground crew were scarce as hen’s teeth and they said they couldn’t sacrifice me from ground crew. So they said, ‘You stay on as ground crew but we’ll put your name down for air crew and when the situation improves, you’ll get transferred to air crew. Three and a half years later, my air crew posting came through.
GR: Right, we’ll talk about that later. So, yeah. So September the 3rd 1939.
RW: Yeah. So then I was then really transferred. So I was then, on graduation, they sent me up to Church Fenton and I was — They formed 249. Well actually I was sent to 242 Squadron which was a Canadian Squadron as a matter of fact. Which Bader got eventually. But when I got there, they were already — Churchill had agreed with France, that it he would supply so many fighter squadrons to go France to help the French because the French had nothing at all, you see. This is against the RAF personnel, they didn’t want — because they were short of aircraft anyway. And they were going to give these aircraft away, which we lost too many really. Anyway this was what transpired. Now they had the Bristol bomb bay sitting on the airfield when I got there. And they said, ‘Oh. You’re going to go over to France.’ So I had to go straight away to the medical officer to get my ‘flu shots because it’s always, ‘He’s service.’ So I went and got my ‘flu shot. When I came back again, the planes were taking off so I got left behind. So there was me sitting there with 242 Squadron, you see. Nothing to do. So anyway, three days later, 249 Squadron was being formed at Church Fenton. So they dumped me from 242, and made me 249, so I became one of the three instrument repairers at 294 Squadron.
GR: At the foundation of the squadron.
RW: Foundation of the squadron. And when we got there, they had Fairey Battles, Miles Masters, Miles Magisters, Boulton Paul Defiants, Lysanders. It had everything but — they had no fighters. Well, they had Fairey Battles which was absolutely terrible. Oh, well, we had a Blenheim. They had a Blenheim. That’s we had on the squadron. [laughs] And eventually they got rid of all this junk and they sent a full squadron of fighters came in there. So we did all our preparation training there and when we’d finished our training at Church Fenton, they moved us to Leconfield and we all [unclear] from Leconfield. Patrol up and down the North Sea protecting the shipping. The Germans were bombing the shipping, you see, in the North Sea so we had to protect them [unclear] there. And then when we went — Moved from there to Boscombe Down in Wiltshire because we had now to protect Southampton. Southampton was getting more attacks than what the other was. So we defended that. On our squadron was Flight Lieutenant Nicholson, you’ve probably heard of him.
GR: He was to win the V.C. Yeah.
RW: The first fighter V.C. of the war. Anyway, he was on the squadron there and Middle Wallop was the other station. Just the two stations were protecting Southampton. Well after — Do you want to know anything about Nicholson at all?
GR: You carry on.
RW: Ok. Anyway, one of these sorties, Flight Lieutenant Nicholson, he was in charge of ‘B’ Flight and he went up and he was attacked by a German fighter and he was shot at and his plane caught fire. And he stayed with the plane as long as he possibly could and he actually got burnt. Anyway he baled out of the aircraft and when he came down, the Home Guard, as you probably know, was being formed at that time there and they were very trigger-happy and they thought it was a German coming down then so they shot at him. [laughs] And they shot him in the foot. So this caused a bit of an embarrassment, you see. So all in all, it transpired that he got the V.C. Now whether there’s any connection, it’s hard to say. But you’ve got the first fighter V.C. Anyway.
GR: He was one of the pilots that you looked after.
RW: That’s right.
GR: As an instrument —
RW: I was on ‘B’ Flight so he was on my squadron. So, same as Neil.
GR: Tom Neil.
RW: Tom Neil. He was on — I was on his squadron too. I flew his plane. I looked after all these planes that they flew. All these things, yeah. Anyway. As we go to that then, the — I think it was 77 Squadron. Now it was 75 Squadron or 77 Squadron. We were at North Weald. And they got completely decimated and they were down to five pilots and about seven or eight aircraft. That’s all they had left. So they thought it was impossible to regenerate them there, so they kicked them out of there and sent them to Boscombe Down. And we were sent in from Boscombe Down to North Weald then for the [unclear] war. We served in the Battle of Britain in their place the whole time. And I stayed there —
GR: So you was at North Weald during the majority of the Battle of Britain.
RW: Yeah.
GR: Was — Well, I know North Weald was bombed. Was you ever under fire by the Germans?
RW: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we — In fact they dropped, they dropped a land mine and it landed right in the middle of the airfield there and it didn’t go off, so we were all evacuated, sort of thing, ‘till they actually finally got the bomb disposal squad to come over and get rid of it. But, oh yeah, we were bombed. But we weren’t at the station. North Weald was the permanent station but we were sent across the aerodrome to dispersal. It was a mile across, for the field. Right beside the Epping Forest. And we were stationed the whole time in Bell tents. There was about eight or ten men to a Bell tent. Right through the, right through the Battle of Britain. I never heard any —
GR: It was a warm summer, so — [laughs]
RW: A warm summer as luck would have it. But oh, it was pretty hazardous. Anyway we survived that and it was, it was pretty treacherous because the, you know, sleeping in a Bell tent when you had to sleep with your feet to the pole and all we had was a gas mask for pillows. They gave us a tin helmets to put on our head so whenever there was a raid, [laughs] all we did was just put our tin hats over our head and hope for the best, ‘cause you had a canvas cover to protect you, you see. And actually, right alongside there, was these shelters for the aircraft. You know, they had these booths, like and then inside there was actually places like air raid shelters. That’s what it amounts to. But coming out of the station there, Beamish — Beamish. He was in charge of this, this wing commander and he said it was unhealthy, or the medical officer said, unhealthy to go into these things they had, so we were forbidden to go in these things so we had to stay in our Bell tents the whole time we were there. The glorious thing about this was that we had to — The Hurricane didn’t get recognition, of course as you know, in relation to the Spitfire. Just like the Halifax never got recognition in relation to the Lancaster. But the thing is that, in my opinion, the Hurricane out-did the Spitfire in the sense it could turn inside but it was the maintenance was the big thing. Like if our aircraft got shot up at all, well it came down and had holes in it like that, but all the riggers would do, they’d go up to there and they put a thing there, put a plastic — then put a canvas patch over it.
GR: Patch over it.
RW: Put the thing there, and all. It set and they could fly again. Now a Sptifire, if it had anything like that, it had holes in it but it had to be riveted. They had to make a patch.
GR: Panel.
RW: Then rivet this thing on there. So we could actually, we had timed it, we could actually, our planes would come down again, we could refuel them, re-arm them and everything like that and within about an hour and fifteen minutes, we could go up again. Spitfire couldn’t come close. Couldn’t come close. So we really were far more efficient in that sense, than they were. And I say, particularly like, a perfect example is the oxygen. The oxygen bottle in the Hurricane, there was a small panel on the side there, and you just took the, undid four screws like this, took the thing out and the other thing, you had to unscrew the thing, took the oxygen bottle out, threw it onto the ground, got all the new bottles, put it in there, thread there, and they went on, you see, we had twelve aircraft to do you see, when they came down. [laughs]
GR: Yeah. [laughs]
RW: It was just like ants. You see. A mass of bodies there, following the planes, you know. As soon as they came in, you followed them. A fellow chased up into the cockpit and so we did our bit like this. We changed all these bottles. But the amazing part about it was, that if you were in that time, if we lost probably one or two aircraft that day, that same evening, they telephoned to the Hawker factory and say we wanted two more aircraft and the ladies would fly from Hawker Hurricane, these planes, and they flew them straight to our airfield and they were followed by like a Blenheim or something or other, an officer or something, to pick them up and take them back again.
GR: ATA ferry pilots, wasn’t it.
RW: And it was our job then. We had to have that plane ready for 9.00 a.m. the next morning. And of course it had been come from the factory to us and was not airworthy by RAF standards so we had to go in every one of those aircraft and go through it and make sure it, everything worked. And if it needed adjustments, we’d work until it got too dark, then we’d go to bed and about 4.00 or 5.00 o’clock in the morning, we’d get up again. Run out to the aircraft.
GR: And get going.
RW: We had to do it by 9.00 o’clock. It was laid down. 9.00 o’clock, that plane had to fly.
GR: Yeah.
RW: And we did it. Every plane flew off on time. It was marvellous the system they worked out, how these ladies could fly these planes and they were picked up and taken away.
GR: Excellent.
RW: We never lost out at all from the whole thing. And,er —
GR: So you survived the Battle of Britain.
RW: Yep. Survived the Battle of Britain.
GR: And then how did your RAF career progress from there?
RW: Yeah, well. That’s right. Well of course, when it came to, I guess the end of October, the beginning of November, things tapered off and there wasn’t much, you know, compared to what we’d had, servicing the aircraft right through the Battle of Britain. So I volunteered for Overseas Service and I got posted to Crete and so I went home on Embarkation Leave for khaki, pith helmet and full khaki outfits like this. And I went out to the west coast there and I got into this camp and they caught me in the wrong camp. It was like, three — One, Two and Three Camps, like that, and they put me in Three Camp. So when I went into Three Camp, I went out on parade for three days and they never called my name. So after the third day, I thought, ‘There’s something screwy here.’ See. So I went over to the flight sergeant and I said, ‘How come you don’t call my name?’ He said, ‘Who the hell are you?’ He says, ‘You’re on a charge.’ I says, ‘What for?’ He says, ‘You don’t have your white flash on your helmet.’ I said, ‘I don’t have a white flash.’ He said, ‘Aren’t you here as a trainee?’ I says, ‘No.’ I says, ‘I’m ground crew.’ He says, ‘What the hell are you doing here?’ So I should have been in Two Camp instead of Three Camp. So they posted me to Two Camp and I go before the officer. It had been, well for three days, you see. So he takes off his hat and he scratches his head, he says, ‘There’s something wrong here, somewhere. The kid’s been in camp for three days. How could he be able —‘ Well. He says, ‘My system’s — Well, the next boat that’s on it, you’re on it.’ And it came to Canada. [laughs] So that’s how I got to Canada. Instead of going to Crete. So. And the thing was that, the glorious thing was that when you got to — and the sent us up to [unclear] and they took us over on tenders, from the ship, ‘cause the ships were out on the estuary, of course.
GR: Yeah, yeah.
RW: So they had to take us all on one of these tenders, so we went over to — I was finally — we were passed to a French luxury liner. Just been converted. It was being made into a troop ship at that stage in the game, it had just been taken over, so it had swimming pools and everything. It was just exactly the same as it was in peace time. So we travelled First Class coming back over then. Anyway, on board ship with us was about a hundred or so navy men. We couldn’t figure out what this was. Anyway when we got there, they said, ‘All RAF persons go to the starboard side of the ship.’ So we go to the starboard side of the ship. They say, ‘Take off your khaki and put on your blues.‘ We couldn’t figure out what this was, you see. And it turned out, what transpired, so we learned, that the spies were watching the harbour and they saw all these khaki going on board the thing there, so they thought, they guessed, they’re going to go down through Gibraltar. And they were going to warn the submarines, you see, about it. This was what we all figured out. So anyway, we couldn’t figure out what the navy were doing, anyway. But also alongside of us was the ‘Cape Town Castle’. Another ship and it turned out that this was taking back London children from London to Canada. Evacuated them to Canada. This was what it turned out to be. Well anyway, we started out and we get south of Ireland, going like this. We ran into a huge storm. And I mean a storm. You know, the ‘Cape Town Castle’ were completely disappearing in a hole. Masts and everything, just completely disappeared. And then when it came up over the top there, we were going down. The screws would come out of the water like this and as it went in again, the whole ship would shudder when it cleared the thing, and we’d do like the same. It was way past — French luxury liner was doing exactly the same. We came up there and our screws came out of the water and got on the top. The whole ship would shake when the screws bit the water again, like. It was quite an experience. Anyway, we gets three and a half days later, we came back to White Cliffs, you see. We thought they’d brought us back to Dover and it turned out, is what you see ahead of you is Canada. So we arrive in Halifax harbour and four abrest, as far as the eye could see, was World War One American destroyers. Four form of destroyers. And Churchill had just bought this Land Lease business.
GR: Yeah, Land Lease. Yep.
RW: And they bought these things because the Battle of the Atlantic was in full force at that time and in consequence of that, they had to have protection. And so we didn’t have enough ships. We were losing ships faster that what they were making them, you se. So he got all these ships here and this is what these navy men were. Now they were secret dogs [?] in the French luxury liner coming over and [unclear] they had to take these things back and they were, left the — So anyway, we thought, ‘Oh well, now, we’re going to go down.’ Because we didn’t know where to camp there. We were just the next ship. You know. We’re going to it. We thought, ‘Now we’re going to dump them off and we were going to go down, down to Gibraltar.’ Next thing you know, they tell us to go ashore. We go ashore and they put us into, in ‘Canadian National’. Of course the ‘Canadian Pacific’ was passengers and the ‘Canadian National’ was frigate. So they didn’t have many passenger trains. Anyway, we were in this stinking passenger train. They put us in this train. And they locked us in the train. Locked us in the train. They were afraid we might escape, you see. [laughs] So locked us right in the train. So anyway, we get as far as Truro, Nova Scotia, and they allowed us to wind the windows down and the people fed apples to us up there and said, ‘You’re going to go west.’ You see. So we [laughs], we went on this thing there sort of thing. So we get to Montreal, and we get to Montreal. We’re allowed to, because they’d just ordered carriages. No sleeping accommodation. It’s sleeping — for feeding they used to come down this centre of the thing there with vats and you’d have knife, fork and spoon on your plate on your lap, you see. And they slap potatoes on, whereas like this you see, you’d eat on your lap like this. Pretty frugal, I tell you. Anyway, we get to Montreal and they were afraid we might escape so they had military police, arm to arm all along the platform there, ‘cause we were allowed to come out and stretch our legs, you see, because, you know, you’d just sit in the seat.
GR: Yeah, yeah.
RW: All of the time. All of the time. And so, so then we get back on the train again and they said, ‘You’re going to go west.’ Next thing, we come to Winnipeg. When we get to Winnipeg, there’s no military police, no [unclear]. They had Number 2 Air Command Band playing for us on the platform there. Playing, giving us a welcome, you see. Again they said, ‘You’re going to go west.’ So we immediately thought we were going to out to Vancouver then go down through the Panama Canal and go through into Gib that way, you see. It turned out nothing of the kind. So two and half hours later, the train comes to a jolting halt and we look out of the window there, because this is December the 4th 1940 and snow, snow as far as, I say, way in the distance leads to a grain elevator, you see. It turned out to be Carberry. And that’s the station. Of course Greyhound Pacific was a passenger station but the Canadian National wasn’t a station at all. So it was just a little tiny hut which said Carberry on it at the side there. But no station. Nothing. So we had landed there and so we had to, we were disembarked from there, so we had to jump down. There was no platform. We had to jump down with kit bags. Right down, you know, three or four feet. You know, down to the ground. Well it was — They’d dumped all these kit bags. And they were supposed to have transportation to take us to the camp, you see.
GR: The camp, yeah.
RW: But, well, we started to march and we had to boot kit bags up and kit bags down all the way through for about half a mile, I guess. Then finally the trucks arrived and they took all our kit bags. But then we still had to march two miles, and this is December the 4th and December the 4th in Canada is not exactly summer weather. So we had little, you know, wedge hats and ordinary greatcoats and everyone marched to this camp. When we get to this camp there, that was a revelation. We were the first RAF to come to Canada, on December 4th, and we were started in the [unclear], we were the first. The Commonwealth Air Training Plan was being started. So Carberry where we were, was, they had the runways in, they had no hangars but they had the facilities. They had the hospital and the accommodation, that sort of thing, all fixed, and they were gradually building it all up there. And we were being brought over, as ships permitted, you see, to bring six, until we were fully made up and continued to make up the Commonwealth Air Training Plan, in being — So, I say, well anyway, we walked into these huts, and I'd been living in Bell tents for months and they had hardwood floors, they had twenty-two beds. Twin stacking beds. And they had heaters on each end of the thing there, and they were looked after by civilians. Looked after the heating system for the thing there. And of course we’d had no heat at all in there. So. Then you went between, like each type of building and the connecting thing there was ablutions. They had hot and cold running water, baths, showers. Oh, after being — because when I’d been at, in a tent there, when I’d been, as an instrument repairer, you were in three’s, you see, so you had A Flight, B Flight and Maintenance. But on Fighter Command, you never needed Maintenance because the ships never, the planes never were full long enough to go into Maintenance. So the Maintenance man was a spare part. So what we did on the squadron was — I was on B Flight. There was A Flight, B Flight, Maintenance. So the Maintenance man was the spare man and his job was to look after the oxygen. That’s how we worked it, so I say, when a plane came in, you dumped the oxygen bottle, threw it on the ground, you collect all these things there and every morning, every morning at the base, and they’d send a truck over and you’d dump all these empty bottles onto the truck there. And the Maintenance man, the man who was Maintenance that day, he went back to the camp and refuelled all these oxygen bottles. And that third day was the saviour of my life because I’d be able to get washed. Because we had no facilities out there. There’s no hot and cold running water. They used to bring hot water over to us and I say, we had outside biffies and oh. We were really frugal there, I’ll tell you. But every third day I could wash my undies.
GR: And what-have-you.
RW: It was really — You couldn’t wait for the third day. It was — You lived —
GR: So it’s winter in Canada but it’s luxury.
RW: So anyway, when I got to, I say, there. So we lived in this Canadian quarters and we had nothing to do between the whole of December. Nothing to do. ‘Cause, you know, we were not that —
GR: No aircraft, no nothing.
RW: And they started bringing aircraft over. They started bringing Ansons over, like the fuselage separate from the wings and we were supposed to assemble these things there and in the time, in the three months, I think, we made five aircraft. So. You need — How many aircraft do you need? Since I was Flying Training School. So the thing didn’t work at all so they realised it wasn’t going to work because they were sinking so many ships, you see, that they weren’t coming and when they came to us, we had to take an airspeed off and an airspeed indicator from this thing, put it in this plane and — Substituting all round, it just didn’t work. So then the government decided that was for the [unclear]. So they arranged with the American government to get Harvards. And of course America was not at war of course until ‘41, so they were neutral. So they couldn’t give them. They couldn’t supply these to us, so what they did, they flew the planes to the border and left them there. And then they pushed them over the border and we took these planes and flew them to Calgary. That’s how we got the planes. [laughs] So it was fine. And another FTS became the first station there to turn out pilots.
GR: And you was there as instrument fitter, maintenance.
RW: I was instrument repairer.
GR: Ground crew.
RW: I was always senior, you see, because I was, everybody else, I was an LAC. And I came out as an LAC. All these other kids were AC2s. They’d all come in. So of course I was automatically promoted to Corporal. In the meantime, in Britain, they had instrument repairer 1s and instrument repairers 2s. Like when I’d taken the course, it was, that was the only course there was. But then of course as things developed, they started to get all these other things like, they had George, you know, the automatic pilot and things like that which I hadn’t been taught on because it wasn’t part of the set-up at that stage. And so they had to have another course now, because of radar coming into being. So these other people went back on to become instrument repairer 1s. But I was never anything but an instrument repairer 2, so I couldn’t train in Canada as there was no facilities there, so I had to go back again, which I didn’t want to do anyway, or out to [unclear] so they ordered my, they made me an acting corporal. They couldn’t make me a full corporal because this had to be — I had to be a 1, an instrument repairer 1 to get a full corporal. So I went for three and a half years, I was an acting corporal, never got higher, I couldn’t get promotion. But anyway, that’s the way it was. But anyway, it was — The Canadian people were simply marvellous to us. And when it came to Christmas time, I don’t know whether you know this, it’s the custom in the Royal Air Force that all RAF personnel get a week off for Christmas and all the Scots people get a week off for New Year. That’s the custom in the Air Force. So anyway, the Commanding Officer got us all together and said, ‘There’s nothing doing for Christmas, so if anybody wants to go down to Winnipeg.’ So they laid on a military plane. It came from way in the west, picked up all the people and it brought them into Winnipeg there. And when you got to Winnipeg, just before Christmas, they had all this, Women’s Auxiliary in Winnipeg. All lined up on the platform with their husbands and what-not, like that, and you were instructed to give your name and the town you came from. So I was Ralph Wild from Rotherham, Yorkshire, you see. And so I was never claimed. There was about a hundred and some people there picked up and finally a man came up to me and he said, ‘Where are you from?’ And I said, ‘I’m from Rotherham.’ He says, ‘Oh.’ He says, ‘Well I’m from Leicester.’ He says, ‘I was born in Leicester.’ He says, ‘But I’ve already got a Leicester boy but I’ve got a large house.’ He says, ‘And I’ve got two daughters there.’ He says, ‘Do you want to come and stay with me?’ He says, ‘There’s accommodation for you.’ So I said, ‘Fine.’ So I went to stay with them for a week. And I had a ball because they took me to hockey games, they took me to — Oh I had a real, I tell you, for real. They really looked after us. So I get back to camp again one week later, commanding officer gets us together, ‘There’s no change in the arrangements, nothing developing. If anybody’s got any money left and want to go down for another week, you can do.’ You see. So I thought, ‘This is a wonderful idea.’ So I go back, ‘cause I hadn’t spent a penny, on the thing there. And Mrs Hancox, the lady, she says, ‘Anytime you’re in Winnipeg,’ she says, ‘this is your second home.’ And I thought, ‘That’s wonderful,’ you see.
GR: That’ll do me.
RW: So I come back down again and as I get on the platform, I think, ‘I can’t go back to her and say I’m here again,’ you know, ‘for another week.’ So I thought, ‘I’ll go through the assembly line.’ So I went through the assembly line. I was allocated to a man from Liverpool. Mr Ormiston [?], and they were an older couple, so I had a quiet New Year, but it was nothing compared, thing, anyway half way through the week, I’m in Heaton [?] store in Winnipeg and who shall I run into but Mrs Hancox. She said, ‘What are you doing here?’ I said, ‘I’m down for another week.’ She said, ‘Oh terrific.’ She says, ‘I’ve just a bit more shopping and you can come home.’ I said, ‘No, I can’t do that.’ She says, ‘Why not?’ I says, ‘I’m already assigned somebody else.’ ‘Oh.’ She says, ‘I told you could come to me.’ I says, ‘I can’t look the gift horse in the mouth and come two weeks, you know.’ She says, ‘That’s my decision, not yours.’ she says. And it turned out she was very upset. She thought I was looking for something better.
GR: Oh dear.
RW: It hit her straight away I was looking for something else, you know. And it did — it took me three months to convince her that it wasn’t that at all. So then I used to go to her, oh she was marvellous. I say it was a second home to you and I was there for all this length of time and it went on from there. So I think it was [unclear] from one to another. So I had a ball. I say, of course, I met my wife, of course, in 1940, ’41 I guess, I met my wife.
GR: Was she one of the daughters?
RW: One — er — [laughs] No, no.
GR: Oh right.
RW: Oh no. No. There’s a long story there.
GR: So you were actually based in Canada for three years.
RW: Three years.
GR: On instrument fitting, maintenance, yeah, yeah.
RW: I was always a corporal the whole time I was there. So anyway the thing was that we used to go down, every second weekend we were allowed to go down into, anywhere you wanted. Most people went to Brandon or they went to Winnipeg monthly and yes, I had a weekend to stay with these different people, you see, like that. So one of these weekends, it’s one of the fellas that was running the week, he went down and he got allocated, you know, then you went — Stood on the platform, and he got picked up by these people. Every Friday afternoon, there were people, they were waiting, they knew we were coming in you see. And he got picked up by, it turns out that my wife’s family, the Eastons, and they took him and he we was a wine, women and song, you know, you name it, he did it. He could drink and he did it. You name it. And of course my wife’s family were quite staid people, they were quite religious people and no drink at all and blah, blah, blah, so this wasn’t his kettle of fish really, you know. Anyway they took him up to Gull Lake. They had a cottage at Gull Lake you see. So they took him. This was the summer time. So they took him up to Gull Lake and he had this nice [unclear] you see, so when he came back again, he said, ‘Wow.’ He said, ‘I’ve got the perfect place for you,’ he says. ‘Next weekend,’ he says, ‘you go down with them.’ So the next forty-eight, I went down with him. They took me to the Easton’s place, you see. When I went in there and my wife, it turns out, she was a registered nurse and she had certain weekends off as happens, you know, and this one weekend, she had this weekend off. Anyway, sat around the dining room table and I looked across at her, I don’t know what it was, the bell rang and I took one look at her, that was it. I never looked at another girl. It’s the funniest thing I — I can’t explain it, but it was there. It was just something hit. So we got on like a house on — so eventually we got, I was engaged to her and we got married in, June 12th 1943. And so we went on our honeymoon to Niagara Falls and [coughs] and when we came back again, August the 4th, on August the 1st, my aircrew posting came through in 1943, my aircrew posting came through.
GR: So you’ve waited nearly four years, you’ve got married.
RW: Got married.
GR: And then you’re aircrew.
RW: So I then I got sent to Regina there and I became a navigator. And I was, because of my age of course, I’m an old man. Everybody else is eighteen, nineteen, twenty. And of course I’m, by this time I’m an old man.
GR: So your aircrew training took part in Canada.
RW: Yeah. The whole thing.
RW: Yeah, I went through the course, because of my knowledge, of you know, I was experienced before, the experience that I had, obviously, I came out top of the lot. So then I got my commission. So I was posted then back on Bomber Command, and, so that was a bit of a problem, anyway, so, and they sent me back on Bomber Command and they sent me up to Lossiemouth.
GR: So when did you leave Canada? When did you actually leave Canada to come back across the Atlantic?
RW: Well I got, that was in —
GR: Roughly.
RW: In March
GR: ’44.
RW: In March of ’44. March of ’44 ‘cause I got married in ’43 and yes, March of ’44, I graduated as a flying officer. I was top of the class. And so I got preference treatment and I got sent to Lossiemouth.
GR: Was your new wife left back in Canada?
RW: At that stage, yes.
GR: Right, I’ll —
RW: She was a — There’s a story behind that too.
GR: So you end up in Lossie, you’ve arrived in Lossiemouth.
RW: So I arrived in Lossiemouth, yeah. She was back in Canada. And she was pregnant by this time, but anyway I get up to Lossiemouth there and fate, most of my life, fate played a hand. I don’t know what it was. It was there. But I was allocated to these officers’ quarters and on the bed on my left was a flight lieutenant and he was a pilot and obviously quite experienced, you see, and I was navigator here in the second bed and a man on my right was Bert Jenkins and he was a bomb aimer. He was a flying officer too. And he had trained in South Africa. I had trained in Canada. And the pilot had trained in United States. And he went over, trained as a pilot, and he graduated top of his class so they kept him back instructing for two and half years in America, so he came back as a qualified pilot. In fact he became a squadron leader. He took over my squadron. Ted’s squadron. He took over Ted’s squadron. Anyway. So there we were, three men, all — I was twenty-six, Bert was twenty-seven and he was twenty-five. Three men. Everybody else was eighteen, nineteen or twenty. Except us. So we were old men. Old as the whole crew. So anyway, we get together and compare notes and Les [unclear] my pilot, he turned round to me, he said — Well what they used to do is they used to form up crews and they’d actually all assemble in the hangar and get, fraternise around in the hangar there and usually the pilot would select a navigator , the navigator then selected a bomb aimer and he selected a wireless — and they go down the line like that. And you make up your crew. And that was one of the glorious things about the Royal Air Force. Smartest thing they ever did. They could have said, ‘Joe [unclear] pilot, Sam Small navigator, Willie White, thing.’
GR: Yeah.
RW: Here’s your crew. Go to it. And when they get on to the squadron there, the pilot, the navigator, will say, ‘How the hell could they give me such a do-do pilot? There’s no way I’m going to survive thirty raids and they resent the Air Force for putting him with this fella. So the [unclear] Pontius Pilot. They washed their hands. They said, ‘You make up your own crew.’ That’s also — Anyway, I never did go in the hangar. I never got in a single hangar. Les next to me here, he turned and says, ‘Are you crewed up yet?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my navigator?’ I said, ‘I wouldn’t mind.’ How can I get it wrong and fly — I said, ‘Fine.’ He says, ‘Well let’s, let’s compare notes.’ He says, ‘Let’s go down onto the beach at Lossiemouth, there, and we’ll see what —‘ So we — He was Wesleyan, I was Congregational. He was almost identical education to myself and he had been in America and I said that I’d been in Canada and everything we talked about it, it seemed to jive. And we really hit it off, so anyway, we got back again, he shook my hand and he says, ‘Ok. That’ll be fine.’ Now it turned out he made up his crew, being a flight lieutenant he was able to go to HQ and get access to all the records of everybody and he went down to the records [laughs] and picks. He never would admit it. But he picked his crew. So he had an ace crew, believe you me. So anyway. When we — We did the exercises there and the final exercise was a five-hour cross-country trip from Lossiemouth and I went from Lossiemouth to Ballymena in Ireland, down to St Ives in Cornwall, over to [unclear] on the east coast, over to Liverpool and Liverpool back to Lossie. And we took off, went through the clouds, get above the clouds like this, and for the first time in his life, Les never saw the ground for five hours. We were at ten-tenths cloud over Britain. He never — So the first time in his life he’s completely at my mercy, you see, as I told him. We got on fine, but I mean, I guess he was, being senior, he knew what was what, so he — Anything, he could pretty well size up where he was. He used to know where he was. But not when you’re above the top. Anyway when we were coming from Liverpool, back to Lossie, he says, ’Pilot to navigator,’ and I says, ‘Navigator to pilot’ he says, ‘Would you mind giving me a course out to sea.’ He said, ‘I’d like to come in, it’s quieter coming in from the sea,’ he says, ‘to Lossiemouth.’ And I thought, ‘What’s he talking about?’ And it suddenly hit me. Between Liverpool and Lossiemouth is the Highlands of Scotland. And we’re letting down, you see, we’re coming down from — Oh Les. Smart cookie. He didn’t want — he didn’t know about my navigation. [laughs] So I took him fifty miles out in the North Sea, turned him round. We came down through the clouds and came down. I went right over the watch tower. Just like that. We taxied to dispersal, he gets out, shuts engines down, [unclear] navigation again. We began a wonderful, wonderful relationship. We had absolutely — Perfectly. He was the only man I ever knew that when we went on a bombing raid, he always requested from me, which I gave him, a miniature copy of the whole thing. He used to have a board strapped to his knee that was the whole route. So when I, ‘cause as navigators, when we went on a raid, we had to go into the navigation room an hour before everybody else. They’d say, ‘Briefing time, 3 o’clock.’ Or something like that. We’d have to go in at 2 o’clock. And we’d get the whole low-down. Where we went. What was everything. The whole shebang. So we had to plot it out on the charts, for the night plan. I made a chart for him. And that, the whole thing. Where we were going, obviously. So when I used to tell him and say, ‘You’re next course will be one, two, five compass.’ You see. And he’d repeat, ‘One two five compass.’ ‘And that’ll be in two minutes.’ You see. And then two minutes later I’d say, ‘Turn now.’ And he’d turn and he’d do it, you know. Right on time. He’d say, ‘On course.’ And I kept checking. Oh, he was quite a pilot. So I say, we hit it off just simply marvellously.
GR: So obviously you’re at Lossiemouth and you don’t yet know which squadron you’re going to.
RW: No. That’s right. When you graduate from this five-hour cross-country tour, they allocate by two things. They allocate you to a place as a crew and how you operate as an individual in your own line. I guess we all passed, flying colours. So that’s how I got to 10 Squadron. It’s a VIP squadron, you see. Allocated to 10 Squadron, so we were a select crew.
GR: Right.
RW: So when we got to 10 Squadron, they told us straightaway, ‘This is shiny ten. You are on shiny ten now. We have a reputation. And you’re not going to spoil that reputation. If you don’t meet our standards, off the —’ And that’s true. They kicked them off the squadron. Wouldn’t have you. You had to — Ooph. You had to be top.
GR: Yeah.
RW: And you did it. It was your job, you had to do it.
GR: You did it. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the first, the first raid. The first operation you went on.
RW: Well that — The thing is, they teach you so many things, but there’s so many things they can’t teach you. And it’s all a matter of, in other words, who is the most important man in the aircraft? Have you ever figured that out? There’s seven men in the aircraft. There’s a pilot, navigator, wireless operator, flight engineer.
GR: Bomb aimer. And two air gunners.
RW: And your two gunners. Yes, I’ve often been asked, ‘Who is the most important man.’ Have you ever figured out who is the most important man in the aircraft?
GR: It’d be a cross between the pilot and the navigator ‘cause without the pilot, you can’t fly the plane and if you get lost, you need the navigator.
RW: You’re right. But the answer is everybody.
GR: Yeah.
RW: If that tail gunner doesn’t shoot down that fighter, I can be the most marvellous navigator in the world, it’s not going to be a tinker’s damn. I’m gone. So I depend on him. He depends on me. Everybody depends on everybody else. And you make sure. My pilot did. You make sure you does your job.
GR: Yeah.
RW: And that’s the secret of senior crews as far as I’m concerned. You knew your job, you had to be up with it, like in other words —
GR: And you all trusted each other.
RW: Well, like Les and I. If we were going to go to, say go to Dusseldorf, well we’d automatically get books out. We’d go to the library for books about Dusseldorf and about it, you know. And also study the area around there, so if ever we got shot down, we wouldn’t be, it’s, ‘What the hell do we do now?’ You’d have to know where the railways are, you know, and this sort of thing like that, so we did this. Nobody said you had to. But there again, it’s the extra things you did, for your own good. A lot of the fellas, ‘Nah.’ Same as the ditching. We had the ditching. We used to go to Bridlington harbour for ditching. Well when you went to Bridlington harbour for ditching, you had to do it. They used to time you, you see. You had — The aircraft only stays afloat for so long. It goes down. So everybody has their assignment. Like as a pilot, he had bring it in but then the navigator, I had to take a fix that, where we were and I had to get the walkie-talkie [unclear] we got out into the dingy. You know. The bomb aimer — We all had our jobs. And the wireless operator used to press the key, thing there, and that was the reconnaissance thing there, so they’d got to pick up that key, you see. They had to pick up the sound. The key and the whole Monty on that base. All these things and he had so many seconds to do this. And we did, I think six or eight times we went to Bridlington harbour. We had to do one. The requirement was one but he took, he stood there, ‘Not good enough, let’s do it again.’ [laughs] But we did, but we did. But I mean it’s life and death. And he realised, you know, you only get one shot at this thing, you’ve got to do it right. And so, he brought along a lot of those fliers what to do. He was a wonderful pilot really. Really something. So. So on the first raid, he also laid down the law that nobody mentioned anything about anything but the operation of the aircraft.
GR: Yeah.
RW: Period. You never say, just, always, pilots and navigator, navigator, pilot, blah blah. All business, business. As a matter of fact, after a few raids I was called in by the navigation officer, he says, ‘Would you like to fly as second navigator on this thing. This fella’s got a good record but he’s lousy on his trip. There’s something wrong. Could you try that?’ I said, ‘Ok.’ So I went to second navigator with this man. And he was a flying officer too. And we get in the plane there and they’d been flying for a short time there then the bomb aimer chips up there, ‘I was in the [unclear] there last night there. I went to so and so. Oh, I had a piece of tail.’ And so on. He was yapping away like this you see. And they were talking like this all the time.
GR: Just idle chatter.
RW: Yeah. So I stood this for about half an hour and I was getting worried. So I thought this is not right. So I finally said, ‘This is the second navigator speaking.’ I says, ‘I’ve been on so many raids,’ I says, ‘This is the first raid I’ve ever been on when I’m scared stiff for my life that I will get it.’ I says, ‘Unless we can have better co-operation on this plane — Nobody says anything about anything, only the operation of this plane. Unless it relates to the operation of this plane, I want no other idle conversation whatsoever. And I want every one of you to automatically tell me you understand that.’ And I went round through all seven men. Including the pilot. And there wasn’t another peep out of anything. So when we, we went on the raid. Came back again. So when later, I went before the navigation officer, he says, ‘What do you think?’ I just told him what I thought. And he went and looked at the charts and he says, ‘My God, look at this. Wow.’ And you could see that that first thing, he was — ‘Cause he couldn’t help it. He’s trying to concentrate but he can’t help but listen to this stuff. And it turns you off. You’ve got to concentrate on what you’re doing. And from the moment I laid down the law and I flew according to my instructions, he was fine. I saved that kid’s life.
GR: Did that crew make it, do you know?
RW: I never knew.
GR: You never knew, but that —
RW: ‘Cause when I came back again, he turned round to the boy and says, ‘Would you like to change your crew?’ He says, ‘I wouldn’t mind, Sir.’ They took him off. So it just shows you. That’s right. I saved that kid’s life, I’m sure I did. And that’s the way it was. Anyway. Raids, oh, all different kinds of raids. But it was a matter of, again, Les tutored us. The air force had spent thousands and thousands of dollars training you. You had to give back. They didn’t want to waste that money. So you had to give them their money’s worth. So I say, you make sure, if you’re going to do it at all, you must do it well. So nobody did anything but their best. Although we did [unclear]. We just did it.
GR: You survived.
RW: That’s right. Yes, I know. It was probably partly due to that, that this happened because other things — We went on one raid there, they put on the raid three times. They put the raid on and then because the weather was acting up there, they cancelled it. So of course, you know, the tensions had existed, things like that so the bar is always opened afterwards, you know. It’s not going to fly. And they turned round again and they put it on again. So these fellas had been drinking at the bar a bit and of course my crew incidentally, five out of the seven men never drank. And only two men smoked. Can you imagine? One crew. That was just that way. Like, Bert used to smoke. Les and I didn’t of course. So of course there was this rationing, of course. We used to get the coupon once a month so I get a rationing for smoking and a rationing for cigarettes, for chocolate. So Les would get Bert’s chocolate ration one month, I get his chocolate ration the other month but we both gave him our cigarette ration. We used to give it to him, so he had three lots of it. That’s how we worked it all the time. But — On that same basis. But things like that, it was all worked in beautifully, you know, how it all worked together for each other. But I say, on this raid I was telling you about, we put on this raid and after — All briefed again and ready to go, it was scrubbed again. The third time they put it on and it stayed on. So when we came in for briefing the third time, the commanding officer stood up there and says, ‘Anybody that’s been drinking at the bar must organise to go and see the medical officer before he leaves and he’s got something for you. You must all take it.’ And he had a jar, like a gallon jar, I guess, filled with this white fluid. I don’t know what the hell it was. You had this. And anybody that he —, pour some of this and I’ll give it them, you see. Like this. Well it was the custom of course, when you’d been on a raid, the navigator and the pilot always went in to see the intelligence officer and you gave a report on what you’d seen, what you’d done. Anything unusual. You always — Anything unusual. Like, when they had this and they heard music being played and this thing. Now music being played is unusual but it doesn’t mean a thing really. But if fifty or sixty people talk about music —
GR: Say the same thing, yeah.
RW: There’s something different. And they had to figure out what this music was, you see. That sort of thing. And it turned out that they, in the early stages of radar, they were controlled from the ground, you see. Automatically. So when they went up, they said they knew, the ground knew at all time, what height you were flying, what speed you were flying but they had to relay this to their [unclear]. Initially they gave it to them verbally, to tell them what to do, you see. So we had to get around that. So anyway, we get around that, as we had aircraft which had men speaking fluent German. Absolutely perfect German. Absolutely. And so when they called up they’re giving instructions, our man would be, ‘Don’t listen. That’s this —’ The other fella — And of course here you are. Who are you going to believe? The two fellas talking perfect German here. Who do you believe? You’re both on the same wavelength. You know. And so they had to figure out a way to overcome this, you see. So they hit upon the idea that if an aircraft went up like, of course as you know, we used to fly dog-legs.
GR: Yeah.
RW: You fly dog-legs. Which is a dual [?] concept. In other words, a dog-leg helps me as a navigator. If I go from point B to point C, I have to hit it, you know, you’re allowed a two-minute margin. Maximum two-minute margin. You had to be on the target within two minutes. No ifs and buts. That was laid down. So you had to be within this two-minute all the time. So if I’m at point B and going to point C, and I’m not going to make that thing, that point in the required time, what do I do? I alter course before I get to point C and turn my course to the next course, to the next leg, and I cut the triangle. So I get to point D on time.
GR: On time.
RW: Now that’s a job, you see, like that. Now the Germans didn’t, they knew, but you see it put them off because they said, ‘Oh they’re going to go to so-and-so. No. Oh no. They’ve changed. They’re going to so-and-so.’ So they had to advance, they had to tell the fighters ahead of the time, all the time. ‘They’re coming to so-and-so.’ And they had to — So, you know, it served them, they couldn’t figure out exactly where we were going to go. So it worked both ways in that connection. But, as I say, it was this where the intelligence officer had to figure out all these different things. How you got around these different things like that. But —
GR: So what happened at war end?
RW: Anyway this man —
GR: Go on. Sorry.
RW: So when we came back from this raid there, this one man admitted to the intelligence officer, he’d flown about five hundred miles when he suddenly came to. He’s in the aircraft. He’s flown the plane. He’s taken off perfectly. And he suddenly came to. He’s flying a plane. He’d sobered up. [laughs]
GR: God!
RW: Just shows how this stuff, I guess, worked on him. Can you imagine. The man. Instinct. He flew by instinct. And suddenly came to. He came out of it.
GR: Probably had a good flight engineer.
RW: Whatever. It just goes to show these things do happen.
GR: Oh God, yeah.
RW: But one thing leads to another. But as I say, it was all [unclear]. Les said, ‘When you’re going to bomb, you go over the target.’ And, wow, how we got on. Like in other words, how I got separated from the others was, we went to a place called Recklinghausen and we’re going on to the target like this, you see. I always take them to a target point, I like, I guide them to there then the bomb aimer and the pilot and I’ll take over and they go over the target, ‘Left, left, steady, zero.’ That’s nothing to do with me. So I automatically take five minutes. When they’ve gone through the target. You don’t drop the bombs and go. You had to keep on. Going straight and low. Because there’s all these other guys doing the same as you. You can’t deviate ‘cause otherwise you’d cause accidents. So anyway I had to analyse from point so-and-so, and then I had to tell him what course to fly to come back home. Anyway he takes the thing over the target, but the thing is that we’re coming over the target there and there’s three or four different ways you can bomb. You can either bomb through the clouds or you can bomb blind or you can bomb according to what they tell you. You know, they tell the instructor which type of thing and how to set the fuses. So anyway, we’re coming over the target there and he says, ‘Oh.’ He says, ‘I can’t see the target.’ He says, ‘I can’t see the target.’ I said, ‘Do you want me to bomb blind?’ Like, you know. I came round, coming to the thing and he says, ‘Oh.’ He says, ‘Wait a minute.’ He says, ‘There’s a patch of blue sky over the side there.’ He says, ‘Not too far away.’ He says. ‘That’s probably drifted over the target.’ And Les says, ‘We’ll go round again.’ Well, Christ. You know. So he goes round again. He comes round again for the second run-in like this. And we’re going for this second run-in again like this and he goes, ‘Oh,’ he says. ‘We’re not quite over the target. We just missed it.’ Les says we go round again. Well by this time, we’d written it off. So we come round the third time, you see. And it was — We were the only ones there. Everybody else had gone. They’d all bombed blind, you know. Then I went up front and saw it. I could see, oh it was beautiful. And we’d bombed — And of course they can back-plot on this thing there. They tell you exactly where your bombs fell. So we get back to base, you see, and it were reported that we had [laughs] gone around the target three times. And it got to HQ because — And Mahaffey, he goes round to the squadrons there and he picks out people that have distinguished crews and, you know, and they get, as you know, advanced into whatever it was. So then, he came to the squadron, you see, and the squadron, he says, ‘I had a crew last night that went round the target three times. I want to see them right away.’ [laughs] So he came and spoke to us, so-and-so, that’s, so take it from there. So we got selected as Ace Crew sort of thing. So we did improvements from then on, but, so I got taken off to do extra navigation. So we had to do mine-laying, you know. Gardening they called it. And we had to go like from Lossiemouth or wherever it was. We had to go over to the Norwegian coast and hit the coast at exactly the right spot then you turned the aircraft so many degrees like this, and you’d count whatever it was, like that, and you dropped the mines, you see, like this. ‘Cause mines go in the water, eh?
GR: Yeah yeah.
RW: So there’s no sign at all. But then you had to come, back then, brought back, and that was given to the navy and they back-plotted, so you had to be dead accurate [emphasis]. And believe you me, you’re going in at low level and they’re shooting everything but the kitchen sink. [laughs] God. Some of this stuff. Things still coming back, oh ya, ya, ya.
GR: [laughs]
RW: I lived through it. Anyway. So they had to make thing that we had to drop these things there and then they would know exactly where the bomb, they would know what the ship had to avoid and this sort of thing like that. So that’s, when we graduated from that, oh, I’ll never forget that as long as I live though. Oh. And I can just imagine what the Dambusters seen. There’s things coming out —
GR: Low level. Yeah, yeah.
RW: You had to hit it bang on. It couldn’t deviate. You had to hit it bang on. Then turn. Exactly the right thing and drop. But we did it. Les was bang on. He was good.
GR: Yeah.
RW: So anyway. I did my bit.
GR: And the war finished.
RW: Yeah, well then that’s another thing too. When the war ended, my squadron, of course being in Bomber Command, they decided that the rest of the — The Adriatic war was still continuing so my squadron was taken off Bomber Command and changed to Transport Command, so 10 Squadron became Transport Command.
GR: Oh right.
RW: So we were then trained to go out to Burma to drop supplies to the troops in the jungle. In Burma, you see. So we were switched from our Halifax 111s to DC 111s. Dakotas. And we had to practice dropping supplies to the troops and we had to practice jungle things. We had to go back to, what was worse than anything, we had to go flying on, going back to the flying by the stars. Like, that’s one big thing. At the beginning of the war, the big problem was we were using astronavigation. We were using the nautical tables which were what the navy used. And of course the navy go at twenty knots. We’re going two hundred and forty knots. And we had to use these tables to work it and we had to — When you used a sextant, of course, you ‘d, before you went on a raid, you had to check the azimuths for what stars you want to use, you see. You get these azimuths and you put them down on the chart there and get — you take a shot. You go up into the dome and you’d set thing there and you hook it, the star, the aircraft. Oh God, it was pretty grim. Anyway, you take, and it goes for two minutes then the blind goes down. Take the azimuth and go down again. Mark it in my chart there and go and see what the next azimuth was, put this on the sextant. Go back up again. It takes two minutes. Takes a minute to go down, go back again. Another two minutes. Go back down, a minute again for another two minutes. Go back down again. Then I had three shots to work out. Now if I got — Worked all these calculations out. If I got within twenty-five miles of my target, that wasn’t bad navigation. That’s how they navigated at the beginning of the war.
GR: Yeah.
RW: And so in fact they still do. And — On long trips, they had to, by the stars, pointers. And so, oh, I hated that, but when they were using it, you could have the option to take a sextant with you. But I never even took a sextant.
GR: You never bothered. No.
RW: I was never going to use the blooming thing anyway, so, I think it was too cumbersome anyway. But I say, you had all this working to do. And working it all out, and then — Now, they realised, the air force, that things had to change. They had to improve. So the only thing was, they were losing aircraft by, you know, not flying on track, so they first of all instigated this flying, what they called ‘in the stream’. You had a five-mile path through the sky and you had to stay within this five-mile path through the sky. You had a thousand bombers. You see, your rendez-vous point was say, Reading, shall we say. And we’d have to meet at Reading. There’d be three waves of three hundred aircraft in each wave or something. It’s a path, you see. So then you go down there and you’d have to take — That’s another thing too. You were given the time you take from Reading, the raid starts at Reading.
GR: Yeah.
RW: To go to Cornwall, shall we say. But it doesn’t tell me when to leave Welbourn. I had to be there at that time. There’s twenty-four aircraft, don’t forget. Twenty, between twenty and twenty-four aircraft. I can’t think now. You taxi down, you go and get the thing, wait for the red light, you see. And you could be number one or you could be number twenty-four. You don’t know ‘till you get to the end of the runway, what number you are. So number one takes off. And you have to get to Reading. I’m number twenty-four. Now I’ve got to get to Reading —
GR: Same time as him, yeah.
RW: So I had to take that time, so I had to make him go like the clappers. What it was, he had to climb high, to cushion me. You’re taking off and climbing at least five thousand feet. So. Oh. It was hazardous. I mean you didn’t know. You couldn’t do a thing about it until you [unclear]. Oh. So you had to finally get to this place. You had to start with this two-minute, this two-minute margin. You had to take off and keep within it all the time. But it worked. If you did it. But it kept people together, this what they call the five-mile path through the sky. Now the Germans, they did, they had ways of tracking you. They could home onto you. Now what they did was, they rarely came into the stream. If they came and attacked you, the bomber, they’d get the bomber but his tracer would be visible to, for all the other bombers and they’d have a go at him.
GR: Yeah.
RW: And all – Saying, the fighter pilot goes way in to get this fella like that when there’s all these fellas going to shoot at him. So they used to stay on the — They knew exactly what speed you’re flying. Yeah, you’re on radar. They could fly on radar. And that’s where in my situation, I had complete control of other things. Like, everybody had Gee. Some had Gee and H2S. Most of the people had to live by that. Now we had access to all those different things because we had to pick up and get more accuracy. And that’s the secret of the whole thing, but I say, they, so they would follow you. Just after you like that and if somebody drifted out of that five-mile path through the sky, you was picked off just like that. They came along. Followed with you.
GR: Yeah.
RW: Some stupid clot there. So that’s — Navigation, they realised is so critical. It had the five-mile path through the sky which corrected it to some extent, then they had this timing which was very important, and then they had this, after all this, this control like they had at the end and it saved aircraft terrifically. ‘Cause they could find out how many men had been shot down. But I don’t know if you realised that the success rate on — The Lancasters were a more efficient aircraft. They could carry a bigger bomb load, they could carry more accuracy and they were faster. They could fly higher. They had certain advantages over us but they had limitations on other aspects. Whereas the Halfax 111 was better in other respects and it would benefit one way or the other. And, how can I explain it. They had ways whereby you could keep accuracy going with the other. More so than in the Lanc. Also the success rate of evacuating an aircraft was far superior in the Halifax. In other words, I think it was seventeen percent. I think the maximum, like for every Lancaster that was shot down, the chances of success was only seventeen percent, in other words, the exits from an aircraft. In a Lancaster, there’s a big spar, number one. That was their big — They had this big spar, Lancaster and you couldn’t, with fully-clothed and all this thing, with the parachute, get over the spar, get to this thing there. The Halifax on the other hand got rid of three people in the front. Like where I was, where I was sitting, I was facing this wall here, right behind me in the floor was the escape hatch. Right behind me, attached to the wall there was my parachute. So if you said, ‘Bale out.’ All I had to do was to turn around, unhook the thing there, put on my parachute.
GR: And out.
RW: Lift up the thing like that. Out I went. And the wireless operator was right beside me there. He came out.
GR: He did the same.
RW: And the three of us could get out. No problem at all.
GR: Thankfully you didn’t have to do it.
RW: No, but I say, it was there. But the Lancaster didn’t have that chance. The pilot, what chance did he have to get, bale out over the top? But the thing is that the other fellas, they had to go to — oh yes, tail gunner, I guess, he could turn his —. Turn around and go out backwards. But things like that, but the other fellas, I mean the mid-upper gunner for instance, where did he go?
GR: Where did he go? Yeah.
RW: Chance of him getting out there is —. So the chances, as I say, I think was seventeen percent.
GR: Quite a few people I’ve spoken to —
RW: The success rate with the —
GR: Who served on both aircraft —
RW: That we had twenty-seven percent against their seventeen. So that’s considerable really when you think about it. The amount that might succeed and all things like that, so I liked the Halifax. It was, it was a different type of aircraft. I meant the Lancaster was strictly designed as a wartime machine for doing a wartime job, which it did. Whereas the Halifax, really, was a commercial aircraft which had been converted to flying in the wartime. That’s what it amounts to. And. So we had more, a lot more, we had a lot better — My compartment where I was, a little tiny navigation compartment, whereas the navigator in a Lancaster was really cramped, you know. And I had the wireless on my right there. I mean I could, whilst I was doing my wind-finder, I passed the winds, just like this, one piece of paper, to him like that. And he just put these into code and he’d send them off to HQ like that you see. I just had to hand it to him. He put his arm over. There you go. Away it went. Was the way we did it. They had to move.
GR: Move about.
RW: Yeah. So we had advantages over them that’s for sure. But, anyway. We came through.
GR: You came through. Did you keep in touch with the crew after the war?
RW: Well, I say, I’ve got only one alive now.
GR: Yes.
RW: Hugh at Hexham. My wireless operator. He was good.
GR: We’re going to go and see him, aren’t we so —
RW: Yeah, he’s a good kid. But the others of course, they’re all gone by.
GR: Over the years.
RW: One died of cancer and well, Bert, my bomb aimer, he came over to Canada. All my crew came over to Canada and stayed with me. Well, they came over for two of the reunions. Quite a few of them. Les was not a, he wasn’t the type, he didn’t drink at all, of course, he didn’t think that’s in his bracket, so I finally got him to one. I think he went to one. The very last one, I think he came to. But he wouldn’t come to any of the other three. But most of the others did come. But when they came, I used to take them to the Rockies and take them on trips everywhere for a couple of weeks or something like that.
GR: Yeah.
RW: So we hit it — But I say, it was — The wonderful thing about Bomber Command is that, is the camaraderie. Like it’s, as you say, after the war, we all stick together. We’re brothers.
GR: Yeah.
RW: I never forgot. They say, ‘I saved the life of, they saved my life.’ You know. So it’s just one of those things. It’s, you do things instinctively I guess. For survival.
GR: Yeah.
RW: And you can’t change that.
GR: No.
RW: So if you’re all working to the same common cause, you have a fighting chance. But if you don’t, it’s, you know, it’s one of those things.
GR: Right. I shall pause the recorder there.
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AWildR160224
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Interview with Ralph Wild
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01:17:07 audio recording
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Gary Rushbrooke
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Ralph Wild grew up in Yorkshire. He originally served as ground personnel with Fighter Command but he later remustered and became a navigator and flew operations with Bomber Command.
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Cathy Brearley
10 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
C-47
crewing up
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Hurricane
love and romance
military ethos
navigator
RAF Church Fenton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF North Weald
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1142/11698/AStathamR160627.1.mp3
595eec4c7681578967589def030c70b7
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Statham, Rex
R Statham
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An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Rex Statham (b. 1924, 1861640 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 10 and 158 Squadrons.
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2016-06-27
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Statham, R
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Transcription
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AM: Well right. So, first of all we’re here in Luton and it’s Monday the 27th of June 2016. This is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’ve also got Gary Rushbrook with me and we’re talking today to Rex Statham.
RS: That’s right.
AM: So, I’ll tell you what, before we start can you just tell me what your date of birth was Rex?
RS: Yeah. The 25th of January 1924.
AM: 1924.
RS: Yeah.
AM: Right. And where were you born?
RS: In Luton.
AM: You were, you were born in Luton.
RS: Yeah. I think it was 37 Princess Street. I think it was. I’m not quite sure the number. I can’t remember it.
AM: Yeah.
RS: I didn’t see it.
AM: What’s that?
RS: We moved across the road after that.
AM: Right. What did your parents —
RS: When my dad died.
AM: I was going to say what did your parents do? So, what was your early life like?
RS: Well, my father got killed. We moved across the road. I think it was 37 to fifty —no it wouldn’t be 37 but we moved up to 51. That’s where I, that’s where I was born. 51 Princess Street.
AM: And, and then? So, what happened to your dad? What sort of work did he do?
RS: Well, he was in the hat trade. He was in the hat trade. He used to sell ribbons and all that sort of thing.
AM: Yeah.
RS: I don’t know, I don’t know quite what, what, a shop or whatever or if he travelled for somebody.
AM: Yeah.
RS: I’m not quite sure about that.
AM: What about brothers and sisters? How many of you were there?
RS: Never, never had any brothers and sisters.
AM: So just you and you were an only child.
RS: Yeah.
AM: And you said your dad died. So how old were you then?
RS: Yeah. He died. He got, he got knocked off his motorbike. And he died after that.
AM: How old were you then Rex? ‘ish?
RS: Oh crikey. I can’t quite remember. I don’t really know. I was only small. I can only just remember him.
AM: Yeah.
RS: I can’t remember. Probably about five or six. Maybe. Maybe not quite as old as that.
AM: So, so young.
RS: Yeah.
AM: So, what, what was your life like then then with your mum?
RS: Well, when, when he died we moved. After a time we moved across the road. Yeah. It must have been because, earlier because I can remember I wasn’t at school. We moved across the road to live with my grandmother and grandfather. They had a hat factory across the road. We moved into that. In to their place with them.
AM: Yeah. Because we’re talking pre-war so pre-national insurance.
RS: Oh crumbs, yes. Yeah.
AM: Or widow’s pension.
RS: Oh yes. Yeah.
AM: Or anything like that.
RS: Yeah. I don’t think she ever got that.
AM: No.
RS: Yeah. That was that. Moved across the road and I know that, I know that I got, they had to go round and find some place that would let me go, take me. Like a school. Because I wasn’t old enough to go to school because apparently I nearly got run over by a lorry and they saw it and they got me in at some, it was a kiddie’s, a little kiddie’s school. You know. There was no such things as nursery schools in them days. It was a little school.
AM: Yeah.
RS: York House in Luton it was. I can remember that.
AM: So, what were school days like? Did you enjoy school?
RS: Not really. Well, I did and I didn’t. I weren’t a lover of school. I weren’t a lover of it. Definitely not a lover of it. Now, I went to, I went to Wallace Street School in Luton which was an ordinary council school you know. And then I went to the Modern School. I passed the exam to get in the Modern School and I went there. And then after that I went up to a place called Clarks College in London. It was [pause] and then the war broke out. I didn’t, you know —
AM: What, what were you going to do at Clarks College though?
RS: Well, it was just an educational place, you know. I really wanted to go in the Navy. That’s what I wanted to go in. I was absolutely barmy on going in that. I wanted to be an engine room officer artificer apprentice. That’s what I wanted to be but I never got there.
AM: So, what happened? Why the RAF then? How did all that come about?
RS: Well, it, it was during the war. War came along and they was after — and I, well I was working at Hayward Tylers. I was apprenticed at Hayward Tyler’s in Luton. And, I don’t know, everybody else was joining up and all that. And I just wanted to go and join up. So, I went and joined up as ground crew you see.
AM: Why the RAF though after you’d been so mad on the Navy?
RS: I don’t know. I don’t know really, why. And I don’t know. But —
AM: Maybe your mates were joining the RAF.
RS: Yeah. The boy who lived next door was in the RAF. And yeah. I joined up. I joined up as a flight mechanic. And —
AM: Where did you go to join up? Can you remember what, what —
RS: Yeah. Edgeware.
AM: What was the process?
RS: I joined up at the Drill Hall in Edgeware. I had to go up to Edgeware to join up. I had my medical up there and all the lot and then when I got called up, which was quite a long time after I had my medical and that I went, I went to Cardington. And from Cardington I went to Yarmouth on the foot bashing course. And the assault course which we went on. Used to go up and down the [pause] climb up and down the, you know, the funfair.
AM: In Yarmouth.
RS: A lot of nonsense really.
AM: Great Yarmouth.
RS: Great Yarmouth. Yeah.
AM: So, where you staying then? Where were you all in digs?
RS: Oh, we was all in civvy digs. I was in a house in Wellesley Road. I remember that. And the guard room was next door. That was another house. The guard room was the house next door. Yeah. That’s, that was, I remember doing my square bashing. I quite enjoyed that.
AM: Yeah.
RS: And —
GR: Did you know what you was going to be then? Did you know? Had you —
RS: Yeah. I knew I was going, I knew I was going in for, to be a flight mechanic but —
GR: So, as ground crew.
RS: You had to. Everybody had to that.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Initiation course. Initial course. You know.
Other: Could you pass me my handbag. There it is.
[recording paused]
RS: Yeah. I did that. And —
AM: So this is ground crew isn’t it?
RS: Yeah.
AM: So, you joined up.
RS: I joined up as ground crew. You see.
AM: You joined up to be ground crew.
RS: You see. And when, when we left Yarmouth I went to Cosford which was a flight mechanics course.
GR: Right.
RS: And it suddenly struck me that there was people was, as soon as they was passing as flight mechanics they was going overseas. I thought I’m not bloody going to go overseas. I didn’t want to go overseas. So they, they was recruiting for flight engineers. So, I went and re-mustered as a flight engineer.
AM: When you say you re-mustered what was the process then to do that?
RS: Well, it —
AM: You just told them.
RS: Well, actually nothing. You just asked if you could go and they give you an aircrew medical which was a farce really. He just came up and see if you was deaf and whispered in your ear. And I can remember him saying, ‘jam tart’ in my ear. Bloody stupid really. And then we went on this course which was, more or less, pretty much a fitters course but included air frames and that. We went on to that. So I passed out from that as a sergeant and I went from there. That was in Christmas 1943 that was. I went up to, come home, went home, come home for Christmas. And after Christmas I went up to Rufforth near York.
GR: Yeah.
RS: And we, we did our, you know — flying training up there. So, I’d never, never been an aeroplane before. We did our flying training and we was just about to go and be posted to a squadron and the pilot, which was a sergeant —
GR: Had you crewed, obviously you’d crewed up by then.
RS: We’d crewed up. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
RS: We’d crewed up. He said, ‘I don’t want to fly bombers. I want to go on to Transport Command.’ That left us, we was messing about then for about three months doing nothing.
AM: How had you crewed up then?
RS: How was we crewed up? Well, it’s rather funny because they pushed us all in this big hut with all, there was officers and God knows what, all in this hut and they pushed us all in there. You just walked around and anybody you thought you fancied you just —it was a farce really. And we just crewed up. I crewed up with Spivey, you remember John, err Maurice Spivey.
AM: Maurice Spivey.
RS: Yeah. He was in it.
AM: Who chose? Who chose who? Did you choose him or —
RS: Well, no. You just went. You just went and spoke to them and said, ‘Did you want a flight engineer?’ And they sort of said, ‘Yes,’ so that was it. If you liked them.
GR: Yeah.
RS: If they was alright. Where [pause] and we had a, we got a pilot. He was a squadron leader the pilot was. No, a flight lieutenant. Sorry. A Flight Lieutenant Parry it was. And as soon as we got to — we, we passed out eventually after about another — fair while we passed out again. And we went to Lissett. And —
GR: So, this was when you’d been given a squadron.
RS: Yeah. Went to Lissett.
GR: With a new pilot.
RS: Yeah. Flight Lieutenant Parry.
GR: Yeah.
RS: And he, we got on to Lissett and about the second day we got on to Lissett the flight commander of C Flight which we were put in he, he crashed in Bridlington Bay and all the crew got killed. And they made, made Tom Parry up to a squadron leader. And we was the flight commander’s crew. Well, of course that was, that was heavenly because —
GR: So you hadn’t flown any operations yet.
RS: No.
GR: But straightaway you’re —
RS: No. Straightaway. But that was heavenly because you didn’t, you didn’t go on every night. One every night. You had spaces. Long spaces between them, see.
AM: What was your first operation to? Can you remember?
RS: Yes. I can remember. A place called Ferme D’Urville. It was on the night of D-Day.
GR: 5th of June.
RS: Yeah. In fact, when I, when I had to get the information to get that medal I wrote all those French trips out.
GR: Yeah.
RS: I’ve got it in the back room.
AM: Yeah.
GR: So the start of your operations.
RS: Yeah. Do you want to have a look?
AM: We’ll have a look afterwards.
GR: Yeah.
GR: Well we’ll just pause it for a second and we can.
AM: Oh. Alright.
[recording paused]
GR: So your first operation. On the —
RS: 5th of —
GR: 1st of June actually.
RS: I don’t know what that’s —
GR: Yeah. The first of June was to Ferme D’Urville.
RS: It was a gun sight. I remember that.
GR: What was it like though when you were first, when you were in the ops room or you were told — ?
RS: Well, it, it was alright. You didn’t think much about it, you see. The first one. You was a bit thrilled to get on it weren’t you? And it was right on the, right on the Pas de Calais area and it was only about, it was just like, shall we say about, well it was, it was as if the guns were firing over us.
GR: Yeah.
RS: They had to fire over the sea. We didn’t go in, you know we just —
GR: You hardly went over French territory. You just —
RS: Yeah. Only went over it. But then the next one we went on was a bit different. Went to Trappes.
GR: Trappes.
RS: Trappes.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. We lost five aircraft on that.
GR: What, 158 Squadron lost five?
RS: Yeah. It was, I think, I think that was quite a few aircraft lost on that. We went, we went after the marshalling yards to stop the Germans bringing the reinforcements in.
GR: Reinforcements up. Yeah.
RS: Yeah.
GR: And did anything happen to you on that raid?
RS: No.
GR: No.
RS: No.
GR: So even though you lost aircraft.
RS: We just lost aircraft. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. You were alright.
RS: Yeah. That was the first time I saw the Eiffel tower from up above.
GR: Not bombing it [laughs]
RS: No [laughs] We weren’t bombing it. No. We dropped, we went, it was a railway yard just outside Paris.
GR: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. That was quite a famous target that was. Yeah.
RS: Trappes. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: What was it like then actually, actually seeing —
RS: What the Eiffel Tower?
AM: No. The railway yards. Actually seeing them and —
RS: I couldn’t see them because I was engaged in other things.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Right.
RS: I couldn’t, I was, I didn’t see most of the targets.
AM: What were you actually doing then?
RS: Well, I was, the pilot was like sitting in front of me and I was, there was this, like this partition and they, all my dials was at the back on an armour plated thing. And I was in there you know and I’ll tell you I was sitting in there but I had to do other things. We used to, we had Window. I don’t know if you know what Window was.
GR: Yes. Yeah.
RS: It was those metal strips. And it was my job to put them out and they went down the flare chute.
RS: Because that was to jam the German radar.
RS: That’s right.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
RS: But I, what I did most of the time was taking these things out the packet and chucking them down the chute.
GR: Yeah. Did you have to do that on every trip?
RS: Yeah.
GR: So they dropped Window on every trip
RS: Yeah. Dropped Window on every trip.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Now, looking at your list on the 6th of June which was actually D-Day you did two operations.
RS: Yeah. We did one in, one at night. One in the early morning and one at night.
GR: Right.
RS: Yeah.
GR: What was that like? Did you actually see the invasion fleet? Did you?
RS: Yeah. Yes. We saw, I saw the invasion fleet. Yeah. That was, it was about forty mile long.
GR: Yeah.
RS: It was massive. You know.
GR: As though the English Channel was full.
RS: Yeah. In the English Channel. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. I saw that.
GR: And how did the raids go then? Was it, obviously the daylight one would have been your first daylight raid.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. The first daylight. Well —
GR: Was that different? Well, obviously it’s different but —
RS: It was. Yeah. It was, it was quite, you got quite enthusiastic about it really because you’d never done any. You’d never done it before. You know it’s the first one.
GR: Yeah.
RS: When you looked out. Yeah. That was [unclear] I remember that.
AM: What was that like then seeing all that invasion fleet there?
RS: Well, it was, it was quite something. You know, you had a job to take it all in if you know what I mean. There was so much of it and we were, we weren’t all that high.
GR: No.
RS: Because we wanted to get, to make sure to get this gun emplacement. I think we did get it. I don’t know. But they never sent back again so I presume we got it. It’s, it was quite, seeing all these vessels in the Channel was quite, quite something.
GR: Because obviously you knew the invasion was on.
RS: Yeah. You could see these merchant ships.
GR: Yeah.
RS: And then you saw the war ships on the side of them. It was quite, it was quite interesting really.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Could you actually see the men on the beaches?
RS: No. No. No. Couldn’t see that. I don’t think there was anybody on the beaches at that time.
GR: Yeah. The first one, the, your first raid, yeah on the Maisy gun emplacements was, yeah, dark.
RS: Dark.
GR: The daylight was to Chateaudun.
RS: Chateaudun. Yeah.
GR: In the daylight. Yeah.
RS: When, when we went to [pause] where was it? I forget where it was now. We went with Wing Commander Dobson. And he was a pilot. I don’t know if I’ve got it on there. I can remember that. And we was quite low and it was when we, we went to Caen.
GR: Yeah.
RS: And unfortunately they had crossed the river before we got there and we didn’t know our blokes had crossed the river and we dropped the lot. And it went on our blokes as well. It was a bit, it was a bit —
GR: Yes. That was the Canadians wasn’t it?
RS: Yeah.
GR: Mainly.
RS: That’s right. It was.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. When we, when we sort of turned in a circle I looked out. I looked out of the side window and we was, well we was low enough to spot this German ack ack gun in a field. Saw that.
GR: They were, they were shooting up at you.
RS: They weren’t shooting at us. They was shooting up but not us.
GR: Yeah.
RS: At us. But they were shooting up there.
GR: And looking at it you did quite a few operations in support of the Normandy landings.
RS: Oh yes. Yeah.
GR: All the way through to August. Yeah.
RS: That’s right. Yeah. When we went, we used to go after, the Germans had their fighter ‘dromes around there. We used to go and try and bomb the fighter ‘dromes at night.
GR: Yeah.
RS: It was, it was quite, quite good.
GR: And after the Normandy campaign you obviously moved on to —
RS: Yeah.
GR: The industrial area in Germany.
RS: Yeah. We went, we went on to those flying bomb sites which was sort of a waste of time really.
AM: Why was that?
RS: Well, they was only like ramps and that and so small you had difficulty in hitting them. And the V-2 sites, they moved them about. So you —
GR: Yes.
RS: You just dropped where you thought, you know. We were told where to go but —
GR: Yes. The V-1 sites.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Were like the proverbial needle in a haystack.
RS: Yeah.
GR: You know. A small ramp in a —
RS: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
GR: Reasonably large area.
RS: And they could move them about.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. Did that.
GR: And on the operations across to Germany any near misses? Any close calls?
RS: Oh Christ, yes. Yes. Frightened me to death one night. We was going to Hanover. We got to Hanover. We was on the bombing run and a German fighter attacked a Lancaster which did a corkscrew and came up underneath us. There was a hell of a bang and apparently, I didn’t see him but the gunner said they went down because it must have squashed them. And we hadn’t got rid of the bombs. And what, I can’t quite remember, that Lancaster so Stan said was, went down. That, that went down, you know. That must have gone down and crashed. And crashed.
GR: He’d come up underneath the Halifax.
RS: It come up underneath. Like that.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Right underneath our bomb bay.
GR: Smacked into you. Yeah.
RS: And what happened then? There was, oh, there was another bang and the starboard inner engine went flying up in the air. Come up, bolts sheared off and engine went up.
GR: So you lost an engine.
RS: Yeah. Lost an engine. Yeah. Completely lost it. And we, I turned off, I shut off the fuel cock for the —
GR: Yeah.
RS: For the starboard inner. And we, we couldn’t open the bomb doors. Anyway, I pumped the bomb doors and pumped the bomb doors and where the, what do you call it switch, where the handle because the engine driven pump which opened the bomb doors had gone with the starboard engine.
GR: God.
RS: That was, that was driven off the starboard inner engine. And —
GR: Was the starboard outer still alright?
RS: Yeah. That was alright.
GR: That was still going.
RS: That was still going. And I managed to get the bomb doors open and we let the bomb, we dropped the bombs and, but when I went to check we still got the, I think, I think it was the four thousand pounder on there I think and that was still hanging up. And we were trying like hell to get rid of this and we couldn’t get rid of it. Anyway, we came back. We got back over the coast and we was going to land at Woodbridge but we weren’t, I was with this bloke. A pilot. McLennan. He wouldn’t. He said, ‘If you can’t get rid of that bomb you’ll have to jump out.’ Anyway, we, we managed to get rid of this bomb just as we almost got to Woodbridge, on the coast and it went. And we crashed it. We went to get the undercarriage down and of course one wheel come down. The other one didn’t and we crashed in the trees at Woodbridge. And that’s, that was how Maurice Spivey, he broke his fingers.
GR: Yeah. Maurice Spivey being obviously being obviously another member of the crew.
RS: Maurice was the wireless operator.
GR: Yeah. Maurice. Yeah.
RS: Somehow, I don’t know. He lost his fingers. He never flew again. He didn’t.
GR: Right. And that was because you were obviously coming in to land with just the one wheel.
RS: Yeah. No. He — I don’t know.
GR: But then you, you literally crash landed.
RS: Yeah. We crash landed. Yeah. Of course. It tipped over didn’t it? And we went into the woods there. Went into this big wood. I don’t know quite how Maurice got rif, got his fingers but I know he had them and then he had to, they cut them off in the hospital. I don’t know. I think he got frostbite as well because we’d got no, all the glass had gone out all one side of the kite you know. All one side of our Halifax. Where it was damaged with this bloody Lancaster.
GR: Yeah.
AM: What about the rest of the crew? When that damage happened.
RS: Well the mid-upper gunner was alright. The rear gunner was alright. But there was all the papers, you know. The maps and of course it was all like a shower of paper inside so it all blew back. Pat was alright and Geoff was alright. Did you know, did you know Geoff [Heatman?] and Pat [Carroll?]
GR: No, I didn’t. No.
RS: Didn’t you?
GR: I knew Maurice Spivey, but —
RS: Yeah. They were alright.
AM: You know you said you finally got rid of the bomb just before Woodbridge.
RS: Yeah.
AM: So you were over, over the Channel by now and in —
RS: Well, we was at the North Sea. Not far from —
AM: Right. So you dropped it in the sea.
RS: Not far from Woodbridge. We dropped it in the sea. Yeah. Pat managed to, I don’t know quite, I, I was working and trying, you know trying the bomb release. This screw. The big butterfly screw and I couldn’t do it and he happened to. Just was lucky and twisted it.
AM: Yeah.
RS: He got down and had a go twisted it and it just dropped.
GR: It was a good job because if you’d have crash landed with that on board.
RS: Well, we wouldn’t.
GR: No.
RS: We wouldn’t have crash landed.
GR: You would have jumped out. Yeah.
RS: We would have jumped out with our parachute.
GR: Did the whole crew, I mean obviously Maurice was injured. Did the rest of the crew get out all right?
RS: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
RS: We all got out. We’d got, we’d got a spare gunner that night. A bloke who hadn’t, this was his first trip. A rear gunner. I can’t think what his name was now. And —
GR: That filled him with confidence then.
RS: Yeah. It filled him with confidence. He refused to fly again.
GR: Oh right.
RS: And the last time I saw him he was stripped and working in the cookhouse at Melbourne. Oh God, it was quite a, quite a do that night.
GR: Obviously. Yeah.
AM: Sounds it.
GR: But your crew went back flying.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
RS: We had a new rear, another rear gunner because Arthur had, Arthur went sick.
GR: Yeah. So a new aircraft.
RS: Oh yeah, we had a new aircraft.
GR: New rear gunner. Yeah. Yeah.
RS: Oh yeah. That one wasn’t any good. That was a write off.
GR: Yeah.
RS: That was a right off. Yeah.
GR: And you carried on? Did you carry on to do, was it thirty operations?
RS: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Did a full tour.
RS: Yeah.
GR: When did your tour finish?
RS: Well, I’ll tell you. This was rather funny. I went. I had two to do and I went, I went to, I got posted to Melbourne to do the 10 Squadron, to do the last two. And I did one and then the last one I did was the last raid of the war. That was on a place called Wangerooge.
GR: That’s right. Yeah.
RS: I remember that.
GR: So why did —
RS: That was —
GR: Sorry. Why? If you’d done twenty eight operations at Lissett with 158.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Had the rest of the crew done twenty eight or had they done thirty for some reason?
RS: Well, some had done more because you see when, when you’re a flight commander’s crew you don’t, what can I say? They don’t do as many as how can I put it. They do. Tom Parry only had twenty to do because he’d done a tour before. So, that left us with ten anyway. And how can I put it? If, if all the crew, if all the crews, their crews were, you know healthy and that. You was just, you just didn’t have anything to do.
GR: No.
RS: And then they started messing about with these things, didn’t they?
GR: Yes.
RS: And saying that French trips would only, we’d got about three to one German and all that messing about with. But I was going to say on that last raid on Wangerooge I happened to look up, up and there was a Free French bloody Halifax above us and he dropped his bombs and it went and his big bombs went between our wing and the tail plane.
GR: Close call then.
RS: Close call that was.
GR: On the last raid.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Just going back a little bit. How did you feel about, obviously you’d been at 158 Lissett and then oh two more operations to go. Can I fly with another crew at 158? No. You can go to 10 Squadron.
RS: That’s right. Yeah.
GR: Melbourne.
RS: Go to 10 Squadron at Melbourne. Yeah.
GR: On your own.
RS: Yeah.
GR: None of the other crew went with you.
RS: No. They’d all gone. They’d all gone.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Stan Hibbert he, he went. He come back from leave to do his last few.
GR: Yeah.
RS: See. I was on leave when he, Stan finished. You see, we, we when Tom Parry went it was like they, like they took the pilot away from you.
GR: Yeah.
RS: You were spare.
GR: Yeah.
RS: You didn’t, you know.
GR: It just seems unfair to send you to a complete other squadron.
RS: It is. Well —
GR: Just to do two ops.
RS: Well they did. I did my last two.
AM: Can I ask you about, you know when you were talking when you just said they started messing about and France only counted — you had to do three France’s for one German.
RS: Yeah. They did. They started messing about.
AM: When did they start doing that then?
GR: After D-Day.
RS: It was, yeah. Way after D-Day when they started saying that they thought the French trips was easy. Well they weren’t. They were, they were just as hard as what the German trips were but they thought that, the powers that be thought it was a doddle and it wasn’t. That’s what they said.
AM: So they only counted it as a half an operation.
RS: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
AM: Right.
RS: That was the sort of things they did. They, they didn’t play fair with us in a way because what they used to say was Scarecrows when you used to see a lot of fire going up in front of you or on the side of you, you know. They said it was like, what can I say, like a flare which was put up and burst to look like a, you know like an aircraft or something. The Germans put it up. But it wasn’t. It was our blokes being shot down. It was. They weren’t fair. They weren’t fair to you really. We did our bit but some they, they weren’t all that —
AM: Why do you think they did that?
RS: Well, to stop people being frightened. It’s a bit harrowing when you, when you see an aircraft suddenly burst in front of you. Burst in to flame in front of you.
AM: I was going to say I can imagine but I can’t actually.
RS: It is. It’s a bit harrowing.
AM: Yeah.
RS: So they said it was, it was Scarecrows. What the Germans put up to frighten you.
AM: Yeah.
RS: And it bloody wasn’t. It was some of our kites going down.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Amazing really.
AM: So what, after that then, after the last operation, what happened then? So you’re at Melbourne then. Not at Lissett.
RS: Oh what happened then. Oh, that was great. I got sent home for three months. Sent home. Used to get my money through the post. Used to get your wages through the post every fortnight. It was great. And then, oh it, life became quite, quite pleasant. It was, I can’t think [pause] yeah what happened then was we, we was, I had to go back to Lissett for a re-assessment board. And they said, I said, ‘I don’t want to become a, to go back as a flight mechanic or anything like that. I don’t want to do that.’ So, anyway I didn’t hear any more. I got sent back home. The next thing I know I had to go down to Chivenor in North Devon. And I went back down there and we was there for about a fortnight and I got, I got posted up to Stranraer and, and I was on a fitter marines course which was, which when I, when I saw what it was I was quite enthusiastic. We was on these air sea launches. Air sea rescue launches. It was great. It was. And I was a fitter on these air sea rescue launches. And I went for, did the course. We did the course and I got posted up to Invergordon. And oh, it was great up there it was. It was lovely. And then what happened? I can tell you what happened. What was good. We had to [pause] — Alness, it was Alness, it was a Flying Boat Station which was further down, down Loch Ryan. And [pause] that, we had, they closed down and they got refuellers there which were boats filled with petrol and they used to refuel the Sunderlands. And we had to take these, these refuelers down to Dumbarton. We used to go to tow them down. Tow one down on the side of it, you know, lash it to the side of it, go through the Caledonian Canal right up to Dumbarton and come back again. That was a fortnight’s trip that was. But then, then I was engaged in a rather, an effort which I never did find out what, if it was any good to them. They filled a Sunderland up. That was before they took the refuellers away. They fuelled this Sunderland up and took it out in to the centre of the Loch and opened the taps and cocks, let the petrol out and I sat there and shot a verey light picture at it and set it on fire. And then we had to put it out. It was, we, we got these pumps and a water jet on us. Oh, it was.
AM: Why?
GR: Practice.
RS: Practice. What good it did I don’t know. What good it did, Lord knows. I don’t.
AM: I bet that was exciting though.
RS: It was. It was quite good. It was quite good. It was quite good. It’s, it was a bit dangerous and one time when they put the, they got the, put the boat out, our launch right up under the wing of the Sunderland. It could have blown up but it didn’t. But it wasn’t full up of petrol. Just enough to set it on fire and make a — because it was all around the water and everything. We used to spray, spray the water and get, put the fire out on the water. It was quite good. Quite interesting.
AM: And this, has the war finished by this point?
GR: Yes.
RS: Oh yeah. Yeah.
AM: So, yeah.
RS: It had finished yeah.
AM: So why are they doing all this if the war’s finished?
RS: Well, I suppose, I suppose it was for, what can I say? Well, I suppose they were still Sunderland Flying Boats about.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Not where we was anymore because they took them all away after that. But they was down at Calshot and at Pembroke Dock and all around there. I mean, if they had a crash and that the things we did could have been useful for them.
AM: Right. So it was —
RS: But whether it was I don’t know.
AM: It was to learn.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. How long were you up there for then?
RS: I came out in 1947.
AM: So two years.
RS: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: After the war finished.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. It was quite good. I quite enjoyed it.
AM: And were you up there for the whole two years?
RS: Yeah. Come home. I was demobbed from there.
AM: Right.
RS: Invergordon. Went down to, overnight train down to [pause] oh near Liverpool. What was it? Padgate. And got demobbed from there.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Right. So what was demob? What was that like?
RS: Demob.
AM: What did you get?
RS: Well, a bit of a farce. What did I get? I got a suit. Which wasn’t, not really my style. And a shirt and a tie, I think it. And a pair of shoes. But it, you know, I think, I think I wore them for a little was while but then they went in the bin. Yeah.
AM: And what, what did you do after? Once you’d been demobbed?
RS: Once I’d been demobbed. Well, what did I do? Oh, I went to work at Brown and Greaves. I went in the offices in the purchase department at Brown and Greaves.
AM: What was that?
RS: Well, they used to make laundry machinery.
AM: Right.
RS: They used to make laundry presses and things, they used to make.
AM: So, I know that later on you became a chiropodist.
RS: Oh yes.
AM: How did all that happen?
RS: Well, I thought I wanted to do something else so I went to, you know decided I’d try something else so I went to one of these schools to learn to do it.
AM: Why chiropody though?
RS: Well, I don’t know really. I think it was because my late wife had a verruca and she went to this, she went to this chiropodist in Wellington Street in Luton and, you know I went with her and it looked an easy sort of job. And it was, what I thought, it was money for old rope. And so I applied to be one.
AM: So how long was the training for it?
RS: Oh, how long? About three or four months.
AM: Oh, only three or four months. Oh right, I thought it would be several —
RS: Maybe a bit longer than that at that time.
AM: Yeah.
RS: It’s two years or three years now because they turn to other things as well now.
AM: That’s, I thought that’s what I thought you were going to say.
RS: Yeah.
AM: So that’s it then. You did chiropody.
RS: Yeah.
AM: Right through.
RS: I did part one and part two of the course and that was it.
AM: Yeah.
RS: No. Part. It was a little bit longer than that. I think probably all together it was with a part one and two probably it was six or seven months.
AM: Yeah. When you talked about your late wife. What, what year did you get married?
RS: 1947.
AM: So after. After —
RS: Yeah.
AM: After demob.
RS: Yeah. No. Just before demob.
AM: Just before demob.
RS: What was I going to say? Yeah. She died. It was you who took the, I showed you a picture didn’t I?
GR: You did, yeah.
RS: And do you know I’ve lost them pictures and I can’t find them. I’ve got one on the computer. And I can’t find them.
GR: Of?
RS: Of me standing on her father’s houseboat.
GR: Right.
AM: Right.
RS: With her and her young sister.
AM: Yeah.
RS: You took, you took them off to snap didn’t you?
GR: Yeah. And there was the crew. I always remember the crew photo.
RS: Yeah.
GR: With you and Maurice in.
RS: Yeah. I’ve still got them.
RS: Yeah.
AM: You’ll find them.
RS: Yeah.
AM: And I know you went, you used to go to the 158 reunions at Lissett.
RS: Oh yeah. We used to go to that.
AM: Yeah.
RS: Yeah.
AM: Every year.
RS: Well yeah.
AM: Meet old friends.
RS: Until quite recently. Met my, it was about 1964 time. Yeah. We used to go there. Oh year after year. Used to stay in the Ransdale in Bridlington. We used to go up for a week. We used to. We used to have a week. Take a week off. Go up there for a week.
AM: Have you seen the Memorial? You know that, that —
GR: The 158 Memorial.
AM: The 158 Memorial.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Oh yeah. In the church. In the church yard. The cemetery.
AM: It’s near the, it’s, there’s another one that’s the men. A crew and it’s at the side of a field that’s got all the windmills in it.
RS: Yeah. I’ve seen that.
AM: You’ve seen that.
RS: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. Yeah. A good place to finish.
[recording paused]
RS: But at Bomber, at one of those Bomber Command signings a bloke named Ehrhardt or something.
GR: Rolf.
RS: Rolf Ehrhardt.
GR: Ebhart.
AM: Ebhart.
RS: Ebhart. Yeah. He was a German night fighter pilot.
GR: That’s right.
RS: On 110s and he said to me, ‘I might have met you.’ I said, ‘I’m bloody glad you didn’t.’
GR: That’s right. Well, I think we come and picked — me and Mick Cooper.
RS: That’s right. We went to a do, didn’t we?
GR: Yeah. And we picked you up.
RS: Yeah.
GR: And that’s it. You got talking to Rolf.
RS: Yeah. And he sent me a, he sent me a lovely picture of himself as a lieutenant in his uniform.
GR: Yes.
RS: And a picture of his aircraft.
GR: Because funny enough when I looked up your, in my little directory I’ve got.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Obviously I keep all the details. Addresses. And in brackets I’ve put, “Either friend or in contact with Rolf Ebhart,” under your name so I remembered.
RS: Well, he died didn’t he? He was a dentist.
GR: That’s right. Yeah.
RS: He died.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Oh, we used to correspond quite a lot.
GR: Yeah, see. Yeah.
RS: And he was going to come over and then all at once.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Gone.
RS: And now —
AM: And that’s it.
RS: I’m in touch with another one now.
AM: Can I, can I just ask then.
RS: Yeah.
AM: So, how does it, after all these years and you’re talking to the Luftwaffe guys.
RS: Yeah.
AM: What’s that like —
RS: Well, they’re no different to us. In fact, I have a lot of time for the German air force. A hell of a lot of time for them because towards the end of the war Adolf wanted to, they put a lot of these, now wait a minute, towards the end of the war Adolf wanted to shoot all the British airmen didn’t he?
GR: Yes.
RS: And the Gestapo was going to do it or the SS was going to do it and the German Air Force said no. They’re not going to. The German air force took them all into their bases.
GR: Yeah. Because apart from Stalag Luft III which was The Great Escape.
RS: Yeah.
GR: The Luftwaffe was still in control of all the —
RS: Air force.
GR: RAF.
RS: Prisoners.
GR: Prison camps. Yeah.
RS: Oh yeah. That was, I’ve got a lot of time for the German Air Force.
GR: Yeah. Because you met them at that first do at the Aces High when the Germans came across.
RS: That’s right.
GR: There was you. I can’t think who the others were but there were about, there were two or three Germans. Two Germans. Yeah.
RS: And the Germans have never shot, shot you know as they’ve come down in parachutes.
GR: German civilians during 1944.
[recording paused]
RS: My log got, I cut my finger, I had a big scar in my finger and it’s only just recently gone. On my little finger where I caught it on a jagged metal. And there was my, my log sheet and the folder it all got a lot of blood on it but I’ll tell you who’s got that. That’s gone to the air museum at [pause] oh where do you call it?
AM: Elvington.
RS: Elvington.
GR: Elvington.
RS: Yeah.
GR: Yes. The Halifax Museum. Yeah.
RS: Yeah.
[recording paused]
RS: Oh, he did give me a fright. He did. I really did. And he said, he said to me, ‘You can take this dog and walk it for me.’ And I had to take it on a lead and walk it around. Of course, I was, I was, you know, what can I say? They thought I was an idiot walking this bloody dog. That was —
AM: This was around the base you’re talking about here.
RS: Yeah. Around the base. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: So, just tell me again what happened on the plane? He was, he’s the group captain and he’s piloting it.
RS: Oh that was with an air test. That was an air test that was.
AM: Oh right.
GR: Yeah.
RS: That was an air test. What it was, the, the engine went, went wrong. It started spluttering so he decided, I said to him, ‘You want to feather it. Feather the propellers.’
GR: Yeah.
RS: You know what I mean?
GR: I do. Yeah.
RS: The propellers going like that they turn them into wind so the wind blew and it stopped the engine. He pushed the bloody button and instead of pushing it and letting it go he pushed it and held it down and of course it feathered and unfeathered, unfeathered and feathered, and all the oil went out the system. And of course it just flopped round and milled round. Ruined it.
AM: So what happened?
RS: Well, nothing happened because it was him. If that had happened to me I would have been, I would have been in the cart wouldn’t I? For ruining an engine. I’d have been put on a charge.
AM: And what was he? He was the group captain.
RS: He was the group captain.
AM: When I say what happened I mean how did you get back down?
RS: Well, we got another three.
AM: Oh right. So it was only one engine that he — right. I thought you meant all four.
RS: No. No.
AM: Did you, did you only ever fly in a Halifax? The Halifax. You never set foot in a Lancaster at any point.
RS: Yes. I did. I had a flight. It was either a Lancaster or a Lincoln. It was at Cranfield. I went to Cranfield with some air cadets once in Luton. From Luton. And I had a flight in either a Lancaster or, it was either a Lancaster or a Lincoln. I don’t know.
AM: So which did you prefer? That or the Halifax?
RS: Oh the Halifax.
AM: Why?
RS: There was more room in a Halifax to move about. With the Lancasters you had to crouch down and get through the spar, the main spar and all that. With a Halifax you just step over it. That’s why, that’s why I wanted a Halifax. Couldn’t get on with it.
AM: Yeah.
RS: Couldn’t get on with a Lancaster. Oh, I’ll tell you another thing. Group Captain Sawyer took me up in his Tiger Moth.
GR: Oh right.
RS: In Lissett. I was frightened to death. I was. Because he would perform, you know. Show off. He was quite a good bloke actually. He used to, he was, what can I say? Any of the aircrew blokes he, he always used to — sergeant, no matter what you was.
GR: He’d take you up and —
RS: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: He just wanted to show you how good a pilot he was.
RS: Yeah. Yeah, he did.
GR: Looping the loop and things like that.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, our Wing Commander Dobson was alright as well. I can’t think, I can’t think who it was, I had a motorbike at the time and that was when there was a, there was a purge on for people using aircraft petrol in their motorbikes. It was a different colour. And when that purge had finished I had to go in to the adjutant’s office. The station adj, not the, not the aircrew adj, the station adj, and he got a load of petrol in there in bottles and he said, ‘Can you use that?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ He gave me all these bottles of petrol. It was all aircraft petrol so I used all that. Oh, it was, it was quite —
GR: Yeah.
RS: It was. The station adj and the aircrew adj was, well I don’t know. [unclear] him. The station adj, the station commander, the wing commander. They was all ever so good to you. They used to, well, talk to you.
GR: Good.
RS: And they weren’t like the army people — you mustn’t talk to the lower ranks, you know. They used to talk to you.
AM: Did you go out in to Bridlington? Did you have nights out?
RS: Oh Christ yes. I certainly did. Had lots of nights out and plenty of beer.
AM: And?
RS: Well, yeah, I had a few girlfriends but not a lot. You know, I used to go with a WAAF at one time. No, I didn’t, I didn’t have a lot of girls in Bridlington really.
AM: But you drank a lot.
RS: I used to have a few drinks.
AM: How did you get there from Lissett? On your motorbike?
RS: I used to go on the motorbike. Yeah. Or else you could go on a bus. The bus used to stop just outside the camp. I’ve been, I’ve been out there wanting to get a bus and Americans come along in a jeep and picked us up.
AM: Where were they based then?
RS: I don’t know.
AM: No.
RS: I don’t know. Oh, that, that was that was another story that was. The [pause] one night the weather was ever so bad down this, down this area and we had a load of American Air Force people. I think they was Liberators. I think that came up to, and we had, you know quite a few of them land at our aerodrome. They was there for about two days. And when they went, one, when they went to take off one, I don’t know what happened, it was a, I think his undercart collapsed or something. It didn’t crash but they couldn’t take off. They had to fetch it on a wagon and when they took, they’d got the Norden bombsight in it. And they took this Norden bombsight out and they, as the crew stood around they drew their pistols so as you couldn’t go around and get near it. Bloody idiot. That wasn’t, ours was a better bombsight than what theirs was. Yeah, I remember that. Because the people that came to us was based at Cheddington. Down here.
GR: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. Yeah, they all stood around this Norden bombsight with their pistols.
GR: Protecting it like the Wild West.
RS: Yeah. It was a load of rubbish anyway when you compared it with ours. Yeah. Right. Well that’s it.
GR: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Rex Statham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStathamR160627
Conforms To
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Pending review
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00:52:48 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Rex Statham was born in Luton. His father died in a motorbike accident when he was very young. Although Rex had been very keen to join the Navy he volunteered for the RAF as a flight mechanic. When he realised that many trained mechanics were being posted overseas he decided to remuster as a flight engineer. He flew operations with 158 Squadron from RAF Lissett. On one occasion a corkscrewing Lancaster hit their aircraft. Although badly damaged, the crew managed to return and crash land RAF Woodbridge.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
10 Squadron
158 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crash
demobilisation
fear
flight engineer
flight mechanic
fuelling
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
mid-air collision
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Alness
RAF Lissett
RAF Melbourne
RAF Woodbridge
Scarecrow
Sunderland
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1049/11427/ANewhamDF170727.2.mp3
4317e63f3920f92373f45d230b14638c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Newham, Douglas Frank
D F Newham
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Douglas Newham DFC (1921 - 2022, 1337797, 156440 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an observer with 156, 150, 10 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Newham, DF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GT: Now, I’m with Mr Douglas F Newham LVO DFC and Doug welcome and thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for your history and for the history of what you did with Bomber Command to be put forward for the Digital Archives. So, please tell us your story.
DN: Right. My name is Douglas Newham. I was born 13th of November 1921. Consequently, ninety five years of age at the moment. I started my life in, in the RAF by volunteering in 1940/41 and did my first operational tour as a sergeant with a serial number of 1337797. I did my training in the UK. I consider I was very fortunate to do, to do that because right from the word go I got used to flying in weather such as we have over here rather than in the blue skies of South Africa or Canada. So right from the word go I got used to crap weather. Any rate, I did my training in the UK as a navigator observer which was what I always wanted to do. I had no wish to be a pilot. I saw the duties of a navigator as more challenging. Any rate, I did my flying first of all on the dreaded Botha. The Blackburn Botha. And then very quickly they were grounded and we were on Blenheims. The short nosed Blenheim and the long nosed Blenheim for navigation. And my navigation training was from Jurby on the Isle of Man. And most of our navigational exercises were all up and down the Irish Sea and off the west coast of Scotland in glorious, glorious scenery and quite challenging from a navigational point of view. Having finished my navigation, bombing and gunnery training at Jurby, we were then moved up to Kinloss in Scotland, near Inverness. This time flying Whitleys. The old Armstrong Whitworth Flying coffin which looked like a coffin at least. And we finished there our navigation training up there prior to being posted to a Wellington Squadron and that would have been in the tail end of 1941 the beginning of ’42. Strangely enough we were first posted to 156 Squadron which was then still on Wellingtons. And it was the forerunner of one of the Pathfinder Squadrons. As a result of that at a very early stage I was given excellent training on the navigational aid Gee which I loved for the rest of my career. However, that was just as Pathfinder course. 8 Group was being formed and as a consequence of that our crew were posted from 156 to 150 Squadron down in North Lincolnshire. Again on Wellington 3.
GT: Ok.
DN: We stop.
GT: Yeah. Doug, where did you crew up? And who was your skipper and crew please? Could you, can you remember?
DN: Right. We crewed up at our Operational Training Unit at Kinloss in Scotland and I crewed up with a Canadian pilot, Bill Harris. Several years older than, than I was. As a mild diversion at the moment several years after the war I met his sister and married her. So I married my pilot’s kid sister from Vancouver. But that is another long story. Any rate Bill and I and our crew we started our first tour of operations on Wellingtons operating from Kirmington. I remember the first couple of trips were down the north west coast of France. Mining. Dropping sea mines in the channels used by the U-boats. And we dropped mines at probably something like oh five or six hundred feet and encountered a few flak ships. They were very very steep learning curves. I do recall that my [pause] somebody, somebody had suggested to my pilot that unbeknownst to me that it would be safer to do an asymmetric weave. Never to do a regular weave because that could be predicted but to do little bit one way a little bit more that way and then perhaps back. But nothing regular. Well, unbeknownst to me Bill tried this on our first operation. Suffice to say that I think we toured the whole of northwest France but we did find exactly where we wanted to drop mines. Did so and found our way back by which time they thought we were, we were gone because we were about two and a half hours later than we should have been and we were getting a bit short on fuel. Any rate, we carried on. Proceeded with our first tour with further mining operations and then bomber operations over western Germany. Still on the dear old Wellington. Our maximum load was four thousand pounds and we, we had one aircraft that did carry a four thousand pounder. It didn’t even have any bomb doors. It just had an open space and the four thousand pounder was pulled just, just up inside. Any rate, all was going reasonably well there and then there was the allied invasion of north west Africa. Of Algeria. And to our great surprise half the Squadron was sent on this invasion. So we, we flew down to Cornwall. And then from Cornwall down to Gibraltar. And then Gibraltar to an ex-French Air Force airstrip about thirty miles from Algiers. And we had, I think it was twelve aircraft. And our targets were mostly the German ports of Tunis and Ferryville. Then bounced back down the Tunisian coast or over to Sicily. Maybe up to Sardinia. But in the central Mediterranean we were fortunate on one of those operations that we were carrying our four thousand pounder and I did manage to get a direct hit on one of the lock gates at a German port called Ferryville which put the port out of action. Which was rather fortunate. Anyway —
GT: So from that point Doug you’d moved from Bomber Command through to the Mediterranean Command.
DN: Yes. To the North West African Strategic Air Force which consisted of, I think twelve aircraft. Yeah. And our command, commander in chief down there was Jimmy Doolittle who did the Tokyo raids off the carriers. Anyway, so we had started our tour in Bomber Command and then towards the end we went over to, well went down to, posted at away from the UK down to Algiers and moved in to the North West African Strategic. Anyway, came home. Finished there by which time we had lost, well our aircraft was the last remaining aircraft of the twelve that went out there. Most of them I must admit were either accidents or bad weather. Some being shot down. The casualty rate was considerably, considerably less than it would have been had we stayed in Europe. Very much. I mean, we were operating mostly between five and ten thousand feet. We were subject to a lot of light flak but compared to what it was like over Europe in those early days we were extremely fortunate. And recognised it. Germany had a few night fighters out there. Nothing like subsequently developed in Europe. Anyway.
GT: Yeah.
DN: Back to the UK where the crew were dispersed. I was dispersed to Abingdon which was an Operational Training Unit with Whitleys and I was in a Navigation School doing, trying to convert the navigators from their, their early theoretical navigation practices into more realistic operations. Training. Training flights and then more realistic of what it was like over the other side. Now, for some reason, and I have no idea why I was selected to go to the Central Navigation School for a staff navigator’s course. I have no idea why I was picked out. I get to this school and I find that I am the only NCO on the, on the course. They were mostly flight lieutenants and there was one wing commander and I was the lonely sergeant. As a result of that my social life was nil because they were all in the officer’s mess. I was in the sergeant’s mess. So I had, really had nothing else to do but study and I was absolute. I mean I I loved the course. I had, had always hoped as a youth that maybe I might get to university but that was not on in those days. But here I was on what was virtually a university course on navigation and everything to do with it. Astronomy, compasses, radio, tides, astronomy, huge amount of mathematics. And I loved it. I had got nothing else to do. Then I became an absolute bookworm and a swat and it got a bit embarrassing when the only sergeant on the course came out top and I was not very popular with my other course mates. But anyway my commission came through just as I finished that course and I went back to my Operational Training Unit only to find out that one of the conditions of such a course, the staff navigator’s course was that you were obliged to stay in a training position or a staff position for at least a year before you could go back on operations. Any rate I tried to wriggle my way around that and I very nearly got to the Mosquito Met Reconnaissance Flight but it was cancelled at the last moment and I was obliged to stay for that year. However, on the three hundredth and sixty fifth day after finishing the course I was called down to Group Headquarters and offered a job of navigation leader on a Squadron of Halifax aircraft up in 4 Group. So I grabbed that and from, from Abingdon, from my Operational Training Unit went up to Melbourne, just outside York on Halifax 3s. Initially I was not a member of 8 Group and I could only put myself on operations if somebody, somebody went sick. But then one of the flight commanders lost his navigator and he and I then lined up together. That was Squadron Leader Bill Allen who was on his second tour. And Bill and I hit it off precisely. We both had the same view on flying duties. We both trusted one another implicitly and equally the rest. Trusted the rest of our crew. He was a flight commander. I was the nav leader. We both had similar views on our administrative and leadership duties. Bill, for example would always ensure that if there was a new pilot he would never send a new crew up on a long distance difficult flight as their first operation. Whereas some of the other, other flight commanders would take a brand new crew and stick them on anything. I mean I’ve had a little bit of a tussle with one flight commander and indeed with my Squadron commander because we had a brand new crew and they put them on Leipzig which was a ten hour flight. And I objected to this for a new crew. I got overruled and they operated and the crew concerned did a bloody good job but that was, that was lucky. But any rate my own skipper he and I had very similar views and we would not infrequently take lame ducks with us. And any rate we Bill would too, too frequently choose the rough targets rather than the easy targets. But he, he believed in leadership in its, in its true sense. We did, on one occasion towards the end of the war lead a three hundred. I think it was three hundred and fifty or four hundred raid of Halifax aircraft. We were the lead aircraft on a German oil target north of the Ruhr. But in the end we got separated because we were operating more frequently then Group thought we should. They wanted us to stay so that we would remain in our admin capacity for a longer period. Frankly we didn’t give a damn about that. We operated when we wanted to. As a result of which Bill was promoted to a wing commander and moved elsewhere and I was disciplined. However, Bill, I’d say he was a bloody good pilot. He ended up with a and DFC. And any rate I then finished my spell with 10 Squadron during the ’39/45 European war. I would fly with anybody who needed a navigator and chalked up my operations. Anyway, the end of the European war came and the Squadron was immediately, I think it was the second day after the, after the European war was declared over if I remember correctly we converted to Dakotas for glider towing and paratroop dropping for the Malaysian invasion. Well, they wanted to put me in a staff post somewhere but the Squadron was going out on operational duties so I managed to pitch it that I stay with the Squadron. And we went out with, well we converted to paratrooping and glider towing down in Oxfordshire. That was quite entertaining too. We were towing gliders. Let’s see what it’s like to fly in one. These troop carrying gliders that have, I mean they had a descent angle like a brick. They had flaps as big as barn doors. You came down at a hell of an angle. And on the flight I was doing in a glider and we, we disconnected from the tug and the glider pilot stuck the nose down. I was standing behind. I lost all sight of the sky. All you could see was the patch of ground where eventually you hoped you were going to land and he’d get each flap as I say like two bloody great barn doors and very low altitude pull the stick back into his stomach and you’re down. I tried to have a go at seeing what it was like to join with the paratroopers who were, we were dropping. But I got down to the dropping zone and unfortunately the surface wind was too strong so we had to call that operation off. Otherwise I would have had a go at that. Anyway —
GT: Doug, before we leave the European theatre for you just quickly going back to the Halifax. It seemed to be always the third cousin of the four engine heavies. To you guys and where you flew it was she as good as the Lancaster? How did you guys feel?
DN: We on, on the Halifax, we frankly loved the aircraft and thought it was better than the Lanc. We believed it was tougher. It could take more damage than the Lancaster. It couldn’t, it’s true it couldn’t carry the same load and it couldn’t fly at the same altitude but we certainly in the last, the last few months of the war until the Halifax 3 came in with the uprated Hercules engine we were certainly below the Lancasters and we couldn’t as I say we couldn’t carry the same bomb load. Later however in the later marks of Halifax we were damn nearly as good as the Lanc in those respects. It wasn’t as convenient an aircraft for a crew. I mean the wireless operator was sitting almost underneath the pilot’s seat. Feet. In the nose of the aircraft. And the navigator was sitting in front of him. So, to get, if you wanted to get back or even get up towards the pilot’s compartment I had to get out of my seat, walk past the wireless operator and up a couple of steps. So as I say you were way down below the pilot’s feet. It wasn’t as sociable shall we say but I think those of us who were operating on Halifaxes had every much as faith in our aircraft as a Lancaster. There was always rivalry between Lancs and Halifaxes. I still say I’d just as soon fly in a Halibag as I would in a Lanc. Sadly, I never flew in a Lancaster. In fact I never even, no I’ve never even been on board a Lancaster. You know. On the deck. But a Halifax yes. I enjoyed that and had great faith in it. Yeah.
GT: Many of the crews I’ve talked with have talked of how corkscrewing with the Lancaster or the Stirling was was a special art and and most pilots managed it. Some did not. How did the Halifax deal and did your pilot master the art of corkscrewing?
DN: Yes. The early Halifaxes had significant problems in that they, they could get in deep trouble by stalling the rudders. That was when the Halifax had a kind of defect. A fin. And then later, it was in the later Halifaxes it was made into a rectangular fin which overcame the problem of stalling of the rudders. But Bill could certainly corkscrew the Halifax and throw it around the sky like nobody’s business. And he did [laughs] No. I say the Halifax did not have as good a reputation. Bomber Harris for example disliked the Halifax and would have, all his memoirs and books about him indicate that he would, he would have sacrificed a year of production of Halifax aircraft if the factories could have been turned over to Lancasters. But that was not agreed and the Halifax did not, never did have the same reputation. I think a bit unjustified but it was based primarily I think on the fact of it had less bomb load and less range than the Lancaster did. But as far as the attitude of the crews and the confidence in the crews in their aircraft it was certainly equal. Equal to the Lancaster.
GT: Now, Doug it has been made mention that if they lended total production to the Mosquito that having thousands more Mosquitoes and not the four engine seven man bombers they could have saved a lot more air crew but still achieved the bombing of Germany. What’s your opinion on that?
DN: It, I mean statistically it’s true. You’d have had to have had a lot more. A lot more Mossies. It was questionable whether we’d got, whether we got enough airfields because obviously you’d have to have three or four Mosquitoes for every Lancaster or every Halifax. You might not have had some of the precision of the mass bombing that the Lancs and the Halifaxes achieved although with [pause] with Oboe and some of the other navigational aids the Lanc — the Mossies were capable of accurate bombing but I can’t see the big mass raids being conducted by what would achieve the same bomb load per raid as the, as the Lancasters and the Halifaxes. I mean a raid comprising just of Mosquitoes would have been at most six seven of four thousand or five thousand pounds so you’d have had to have had two or two and a half times as many aircraft. And then there would have been the problems of concentration and mid-air collisions and the density of traffic. Have you got enough runways and aircrews in the UK to do that? So no. I think we probably had it about right. Although the Mosquito, Mosquito was a very fine aircraft. Again, I would have loved, I would have loved to have gone in those. But no. My own job as a navigator in a heavy bomber I I really loved it. I think I was good at it. My navigation aids of Gee and H2S and Air Position Indicator. I was paranoid about accuracy. Way over the top and quite unrealistic. I admit that. But I used to fix my position either by Gee or by H2S every six minutes. I had my Air Position Indicator and I was working to the nearest decimal of a minute. So I was working to the nearest six seconds and I was fixing every, every [pause] every six minutes. The reason being if I did it every six minutes I didn’t have to work out how many miles or knots I was doing in an hour. Just moved the decimal point. So I had a, a very very strict navigation procedure and discipline for myself which a number of others on the Squadron followed. I mean if you did a ten hour, a ten hour trip and you were fixing every six minutes, you know. That, you’d be doing ten fixes, ten calculations of ETA and track and distance of track I’d say every six minutes. They’d do that ten times in an hour. If you’re on a ten hour flight you got a hundred. It was a bloody high workload. However, I loved it. That was my job and I loved it. Yeah.
GT: Yeah. Yet the Americans obviously were pretty thick to the last couple of years of the war in the air during the day and I was also made aware that most of the flights of the American bombers only had a navigator aircraft. And so most of the aircraft didn’t actually have a navigator.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Did you have contact with the Americans in any way? And what’s your thought on the fact that they went in with one aircraft with one navigator for a bunch? With your experience on the Halifax there.
DN: I think that was probably misguided. But their whole technique was very different from ours. I mean, we were operating at night because, well we had to. We could not defend ourselves by day against the Germans fighters. We had difficulty doing so at night. I mean we were very near, I believe Bomber Command was very nearly overwhelmed by the German night fighters. Witness Nuremberg. The number we lost there. But the only way we could operate during most of the war was certainly at night where obviously you had to have one navigator per aircraft. When we were operating by day once we got air superiority and I mentioned the occasion that we led a three hundred and fifty or four hundred aircraft on on this oil target it’s true that the others could have followed us. I think it would be, it would be foolish to do so because you had no, no insurance policy. If that one aircraft got clobbered the others would be in trouble. I, I was of the opinion that most of the American aircraft had at least a second pilot was able to to have a fair bit of expertise at navigation but to be honest I’m, I’m not adequately familiar with what the Americans could do. We certainly had, well, to me navigation was an art and I loved it. Yeah. Very different for tactical if you were on tactical target by shall we say smaller aircraft like the Boston or the North American. That would have been a lot, a lot different from my type of navigation. It would have been a lot more map reading than. I mean I was doing mostly, would be by Gee and H2S and traditional DR navigation. Occasionally, very occasionally you’d resort to a bit of astro but Gee and H2S were my, my two main nav aids.
GT: And were they cutting technology for the time? Was, was that, was that really awesome designs and futuristic equipment that they gave you to work with?
DN: I think so. I mean there was other stuff coming along later. The Americans used Loran and I believe some of, some of 8 Group and 5 Group used Loran. They also used GH which I didn’t use. But certainly H2S was, I believe pretty cutting, cutting edge stuff. And they, I mean even in my time they, they got working to shorter and shorter wavelength. They, we had introduced gyro stabilised standards so the aerial scanner was, was stabilised. So you could move the aircraft and the, the Gee pitch, the H2S picture on your screen didn’t change because the scanner itself, the rotating scanner was gyro stabilised. We had variable rates of scan so you could change the speed of scan to take better definition or better accuracy. So we were getting better accuracy because the frequency reduction has got shorter wavelength. We had various variable speed scan and gyro stabiliser and those, those modifications were being introduced while we were operating. So I think that, I mean much of that stuff went on at Malvern which was a kind of centre of, one of the centres of research. And I think they did a bloody good job of keeping up to date. I mean there’s been a lot of criticism about navigational ability and bombing inaccuracy in the early part of the war and there was a government, government inspired survey of this. And results were pretty horrible. I can’t remember the details now but it was less than a fraction of our bombs were getting within kind of five or twenty miles. And I think that was justified but they were in the early days of the war and then at the same time there was a lot of development work going on with new compasses, gyro stabilisers, distance reading compasses, with H2S, with Gee, with the Air Position Indicator. There were lots of developments that were coming along in those early days of the war and kept coming along. And I think the development guys were doing, you know a brilliant job all the time in trying to improve things. Perhaps we in 4 Group didn’t see as many of those clever things that perhaps 5 Group or 8 Group but I think there was a lot. A huge amount of credit due to those guys who were in the development. Equally, on the, some of the radar counter measure stuff which is another one of my interests on how we, how we tried to fox the German radar and the German night fighters. Ok. They, they out foxed us with their upward pointing cannon and Schrage Musik and it was on, but it was on a programme with the BBC some years ago about the see-saw activity that was going on. The Germans would introduce something. We would either counter that or better it. And it didn’t matter whether it was radar or weaponry or tactics it was, it was a swings and roundabouts, see-saw developing, changing all the time. And if you look at some of the, I’d say the German radar and the systems of Fighter Control while they were changing that we were introducing new measures to detect their fighters to make life difficult for them. I mean, we, you probably know we had, we had microphones in the engine nacelles of our aircraft. So if we were over the other side our wireless operators would tune in to the frequencies used by the German fighter controllers. Then blast the noise of the engines on that frequency to drown out. The most brilliant thoughts of all were the Germans realised that we were doing our damndest to mess up their radar and their fighter control system and they suddenly introduced women controllers. So the German night fighters only took notice of a woman controller because they didn’t whether it was a German controller or a British controller. And at one stage we were carrying German speaking radio operators in 100 Group aircraft who would come up on the same frequency and German speaking Brits who would direct them to return to base. The weather was closing in. Or don’t take this vector take another vector. And they were, putting it bluntly they were trying to bugger up the fighter control system by using German speaking Brits. So the Germans overcame that by suddenly introducing women controllers. So the German night fighters only took notice of a woman controller. And within forty eight hours we had British German speaking women who were taking over and issuing conflicting instructions to the night fighters. I think the brilliant thinking that our own people had thought this was what they might do so we’ll be ready for it. And that kind of see-saw of activity and counter activity went on. Well, it wouldn’t have been just in aviation it would have been in anything else. But I found it fascinating.
GT: The crashed aircraft must have fallen into German hands. Do you think that, that Oboe and H2S and similar equipment the Germans managed to analyse that and better their own from it?
DN: Unquestionably. I mean all of those equipment had explosive devices in them with crash switches so that if the aircraft did crash there was an inertia switch inside which would set off the explosives and destroy the critical part of those bits of equipment. But inevitably that didn’t always work and the Germans did get at our stuff and were trying to, well they got certainly got into H2S and discovered, you know the frequencies in use and produced Naxos. I don’t know whether you know they was a, they had a session with the BBC some years ago. There was a German night fighter operating, operating out of Denmark, got itself lost. It hadn’t, it flew south west rather than north east and landed at Woodbridge, one of our emergency airfields down in Suffolk which was virtually running out of fuel. The German pilot and observer radio guy had got themselves completely lost. Our scientists got at it and found that it had got an equipment which was code named Naxos which could home onto our H2S. So the German night fighter could be directed by his ground controller in the general vicinity of the bomber stream and with this Naxos equipment he could home right in on our H2S. And anyway we then developed equipment to home on to Naxos. So some of our night fighters could home onto their night fighters. And it was this, and it’s a fascinating topic this see-saw in technical developments. Fascinating. Yeah.
GT: Now, the, the Schrage Musik.
DN: Yeah.
GT: The upward firing cannons —
DN: Yes.
GT: Of the German night fighters to, to, because the Halifax, Lancaster and Stirling didn’t have a, well —
DN: Yeah.
GT: Ball turrets.
DN: Yeah.
GT: As the B17s, and I’ve been made aware that some Lancasters had belly guns. Did any of the Halifaxes ever been modified with such?
DN: Yes. Yes, but you couldn’t have an H2S at the same time. And they were called Y aircraft. And they had, they, the blister with the rotating scanner that of course was removed and there was a half inch, a single half inch calibre gun on a hand mount with a gunner sitting there freezing his whatsits off. Just looking down.
GT: So, so there was an eighth member of the crew then. Deliberately.
DN: Yeah.
GT: An eighth member.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. And in fact one of my books over there on 10 Squadron operations and I’ve got one or two sample crew lists of before an operation and you’ll find here and there will be a Y aircraft with an extra crew member known as an under-gunner. But it’s not a power operated turret. I never operated on one of those. We always had upper turret, rear turret and H2S. Not that we had a choice. That was allocated by somebody I don’t know. But what my skipper used to do was he would every so often he would drop a wing one way and then drop a wing the other way so particularly the mid-upper could peer over the side and get a better view. And with the rear gunner and the upper gunner cooperating with one another and knowing that the Schrage Musik was around and they could come up from underneath you and with the wireless operator looking at Fishpond and some of the other devices which could detect other aircraft coming towards you. What with that and a bit of extra vigilance as I say. Rolling the aircraft. Somehow we managed it. But it was a very deadly weapon was Schrage Musik. Two bloody great cannons and right underneath you.
GT: With the aircraft and the streams did you ever encounter any aircraft above you that you managed to avoid?
DN: Yeah.
GT: Bombs dropping on you?
DN: Yes. I’ve been underneath an aircraft and looking up into his bomb bay where he probably wasn’t more than twenty feet above us. And you look up there and you could see everything but the kitchen sink up and he’s got his bomb doors open. Edging in to get on to target. And your bomb aimer was down in the nose telling the skipper left left or right and you’d be looking up and seeing a Lanc or another Halifax above you with his bomb door open and everything but the kitchen sink in there. The navigator. The bomb aimer would be saying, ‘Left. Left.’ And you’d tap the skipper on the shoulder and say [laughs] No. And there were, there were a number of occasions of course and the operational research people had worked out what the expected rate of bombs dropping on our own aircraft. In fact, do you know, have you ever heard of Bill Reid? Bill Reid was the last Victoria Cross and a good friend of mine. And Bill got his Victoria Cross on on an early operation and then went back later on a second tour. And he was hit by bombs being dropped from a Lancaster above him and managed to bail out and spent the rest of the war in a POW camp. So I mean it did happen. We knew it. We knew it would happen inevitably. The flight engineer and, and the mid-upper gunner and occasionally the pilot but certainly as a navigator once I had handed over to the bomb aimer I would be up there looking. Adding another pair of eyes. Trying to keep out of the way.
GT: So, in the bomber streams did you, you were in formations of Halifaxes and Lancasters?
DN: No. No.
GT: No. You were just all a mix.
DN: No. You [pause] you had each, each Squadron, each flight, almost each aircraft, not quite, you had a time span when you were, it was your turn to be on target. The raid might be forty minutes in length shall we say? Thirty to forty five minutes depending on the number of aircraft. And each Squadron had its own height band and its own duration on target. So it would have perhaps eight minutes on target out of a total of forty five. And each Squadron would have that. And each Squadron would have its own height band. So you knew darned well and of course the Halifax not having the performance of the Lanc it was generally the Halifax who would be at a lower level. Which would prompt you to keep a good look out. But I mean there were occasions when the aircraft, there might be an aircraft two thousand feet above you and you wouldn’t have a hope in hell of seeing anything coming down. But yes not only mid-air collisions but being bombed by your own aircraft was a known and anticipated factor but again the operational research people, the whizz kids with their mathematics and probabilities way beyond the Squadron activity did work out what was an acceptable risk and consequently worked out what was an acceptable density of a bomber stream. If you got it too dense then yes you’d be increasing the chance of mid-air collision. You’d be increasing the chance of being bombed by somebody above you. And they would adjust the density of the bomber stream to meet those parameters.
GT: What, what was the likelihood of you getting out of the Halifax if it was going down?
DN: Well, I had an escape hatch immediately under my seat. So if I had to get out in a hurry I had to stand up, lift up my, fold up my seat, get my parachute pack and clip it on my chest and kick open the door and just go straight out. Unless, which I’m sure would have happened you were checking. I mean there were four of us in the front end. There was the bomb aimer, the navigator, the radio man. Well, the flight engineer into there. And the pilot. And we were all in a pretty, pretty congested area. And then we, there was an escape hatch above the pilot and this one which was underneath my seat. I don’t know.
GT: Now, Doug, you mentioned earlier about the actual accuracy of the bombing raids. And you likened it with the navigational equipment you had. But the bomb aimer’s role was to direct the aircraft to drop their bombs on target. So was there a correlation of equipment between the navigational and the bomb aiming equipment? Did they combine together or were they totally separate items?
DN: On the actual bombing it was either one or the other. In the early days it was entirely visual and that was from a relatively, relatively rudimentary bombsight where you would, where the bomb aimer would make adjustments for the height of the aircraft and, and the anticipated wind. And then he would look down and get two pointers in line with whatever the target was. Now, later on later developments of the bombsight had gyro stabilised bombsights where much of that mattered. Many of the parameters that were essential for bomb aiming were undertaken automatically. The height would be fed in from a, from an altimeter computer. The speed would be fed in by the same system as would register on the airspeed indicator. And as I say some of those parameters would be fed in automatically. Nevertheless, you would be the bomb aimer and this is what one hoped for pretty well every time was that the bomb aimer could see the target markers, target indicators on the ground and would be instructing the pilot which way to turn in order to get that cross right on that player and then push the tit. Now, if the weather was crap and there was no direct vision then it would be the navigator who would do so either through Gee or more likely and preferably through H2S. And I had my H2S set here and I could, I could, for example if there were a lake or an open space, a known open space in the centre of the city and you, your aiming point you would have calculated back to what was given you at briefing. If you can’t see, get a direct visual sight on the markers then aim for, for one five four degrees, three and a half miles from this park. And if you could identify that park on your H2S which frequently you could do if you were a good H2S operator then you could. You could get yourself to that position in the right direction and then you, the navigator would push the tit. And then it would probably come up, that method probably twenty thirty percent of occasions because so frequently you get over land the bomb aimer couldn’t see the markers. So we had, we had the means of dropping on either H2S or on Gee. Gee was a bit different. But the navigator would, I’d say swap over with him. The bomb aimer ideally, and this would happen in a good crew the navigator would train the bomb aimer to be able to operate the Gee or the H2S as accurately as he could himself. So the navigator could, well could supervise the thing and, and refine it whilst the, whilst the bomb aimer would be following it on on the radar.
GT: Now, you’re initial navigation training. What was that like compared to when you went back as an instructor yourself? Had, had they progressed in those years? Did they move forward with the new equipment? And, and how did you feel then becoming the instructor?
DN: Well, when I trained in the early days it was, it was pretty basic. We were flying Blenheims and you were doing ninety percent of it by visual pinpoints or by bearings or a bit by radio. Perhaps, not very much, by astro. When I went back as an instructor by then Gee had come in. H2S was just coming in. The Air Position Indicator was just coming in. So your techniques were changing. And one of the things I, I did when I was an instructor down at Abingdon was to devise exercises that were, as I saw it, much much more realistic. That reflected the kind of situations and procedures that one would encounter in the nav, in the real. You take, you take a crew or a crowd of navigators through and then you’d say and now you have H2S has gone u/s. What do you do? You know. And [they didn’t really know] [laughs]
GT: And what was the, what was the result? Did they come up with the right —
DN: Well I, I’m pretty damned sure that, that I ended up as an instructor exposing my pupils to a much more realistic situation. In fact, two or three of my my old pupils had said and I’m not trying to spread my own bullshit, did say that, you know, ‘You introduced us to practical navigation.’ I mean, I did, I did love navigation in every aspect and if I wasn’t operating I I think I became a good instructor because I enjoyed it.
GT: So your instructing role actually made, made you a far better navigator then you would have if you’d have just done one tour and then gone away.
DN: I think so. Yes. I say I, my, my period as an instructor was not in the final stages of training of a crew but in a fairly advanced. Advanced stage of their training. And I tried to make that as realistic to the real thing as I could.
GT: So how long did you actually serve with Bomber Command?
DN: How?
GT: How long did you actually serve with Bomber Command in the end?
DN: Well, that would have been nineteen [pause] 1941 until ’45 with, with a break of a few months when I was down in North Africa. But in that period I was still, as an instructor I was still in Bomber Command. Yeah. And I didn’t really come out of Bomber Command until I went out to to India to do glider towing and supply dropping and other silly things. Yeah.
GT: And by the end of your Bomber Command time you had accrued operations. Forty odd. Thereabouts.
DN: I did thirty on my first tour. Then I did my second tour. We had, with my skipper a number that didn’t necessarily go in the logbook. Yeah. My eyesight without going through my logbook over there I can’t tell you exactly how many. But I guess it was somewhere around about sixty five.
GT: And the Squadrons you flew on in Bomber Command?
DN: 156, 150 and shiny 10.
GT: And where were they based at that time please?
DN: 156 was at Warboys. W A R B O Y S that’s in what became 8 Group. 150 Squadron was in Kirmington which is in North Lincolnshire. And then out in a place called Blida in Algiers. Then 10 Squadron was at Melbourne. Just outside York. And then, and then out to India. India and Burma. Yeah.
GT: So —
DN: Oh, and Abingdon was where I did most of my instruction. Yeah.
GT: So your Bomber Command time was up and you received new posting orders. Did you seek something new or was that just the next thing on the rack for you? Where did you move to from there?
DN: Mostly accepted that that’s what was on, you know. In later years I got to get bloody awkward and would challenge it. When I, when I finished on the Halifax they wanted to, because I got my staff navigators qualification when I went to the staff nav school I mentioned earlier they wanted me to go to some unspecified staff post. And for some crazy reason I said, ‘No. I want to stay with the Squadron on operational duties.’ A bit bloody stupid in retrospect but [laughs] one was like that occasionally. Yeah.
GT: So you headed off to Burma then. Was that the next step after Bomber Command?
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were in India on general transport duties because although you went out there to participate in the invasion of Malaysia and we, we knew all about or knew some about glider towing and supply dropping and paratrooping that was off the cards then. But we, we did have a period up in northern Burma where we were supply dropping to some Burmese tribes. When the Japanese, I mentioned where I went with Bomber Command when the Japs were in northern Burma to a large extent they lived off the land and they stole their food, or requisitioned it from the locals. And a number of the British political, political agents who had been in the Burma Civil Service were parachuted into northern Burma and persuaded the locals to burn their stocks of rice which made, made life difficult for the Japanese who then had of course to provide their own food for their troops. So when the war was over the Burmese tribes concerned having burned much of their stocks of rice including their seed rice were on the point of starvation. So obviously the Brits were morally obliged to re-supply them. Well, the army did a lot of this with trucks but in some of the high mountain regions in the extreme north of Burma where the Kachin tribes lived, K A C H I N, it was way beyond the ability to get trucks and there were no railways. So the decision was made to supply them, supply, re-supply them with rice by air which is where we came in. And the terrain up there is very very difficult terrain. The mountains. Some of the mountains go up way over eighteen, twenty thousand feet. But the lower ranges you still had to if you want to get into some of these areas you’ve got to get up to about eleven thousand, twelve thousand feet. And the villages are generally built on the ridges. On the spine of the ridges. They had to go over, go down, spiral down, do your supply drops, climb up and out. And we were flying in Dakotas and we had the rice in sacks. No parachutes. Rice in sacks. In three sacks. One inside another so that we chucked them out of the door, or toppled them out of the door. And when they hit of course the inner sack might burst and the outer sack might tear. The chances of all three going were pretty remote. So we would, we would fly to the area, circle down and then we would stack the sacks of rice up in the — no door. Take the door off the Dakota. Put the sacks up. My favourite position was to stick a sack of rice on the floor on the starboard side and get my shoulders against it and feet against these sacks of rice. And while the co-pilot and the pilot and co-pilot would bring the aircraft down, normally you would come along the ridge. Never go across it because you could never judge the, judge the approach altitude accurately enough, so you would come along the ridge, getting lower and lower and honestly you’d only be twenty or thirty feet above the trees until you came over to the, the centre of the nominated village and a light would change above the door and you’d heave and pop the sacks of rice out and then go around again and do this. And we were engaged in that for about a month. Living in tents on an old Japanese airstrip at Meiktila. And then one particular sortie to a new, new grid, never been there before. There were four of us. Four aircraft and we were number one. So we flew, let down, did our drop and climbed up again and then went back to an advanced base to pick up some more rice and we saw number two aircraft starting to circle down. Any rate, to cut a long story short number four aircraft, we don’t know what happened to him. He never came back. And numbers two and three didn’t come back from their second drop. So out of the four aircraft who was the lucky one? Yes.
GT: And that was 10 Squadron you were with.
DN: Yeah.
GT: And they converted to C47s to go out.
DN: Yeah. Yeah.
GT: To the Burma time.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Ok.
DN: And that, details of that is in the latest 10 Squadron booklet.
GT: Marvellous. So, how long were you in that area for? In Burma.
DN: Came back in ’46. Yeah.
GT: And you carried on in the RAF?
DN: No. No. I would have carried on in the RAF but they would only offer me a short period and I wanted to go. If I was going to go in I wanted to go in for a career and they were hanging up on me. I think it was something like four years. And I said no thank you. So I then applied as a navigator with BOAC. The forerunner of British Airways. And they said, ‘Ok. But wait ‘til you get — ’ I applied while I was in India. So when I came back I applied and they said , ‘We don’t need any more navigators.’ However, I did stay with BA. With BOAC, BA for the next thirty five years in operational posts on the ground out in, oh Cairo, Khartoum, Basra, Kuwait. And then back to this new airport called Heathrow. And then from a series of luck and luck believe you me from what I’ve already told you luck played an extremely important part in my life in the RAF and my survival. Anyway, luck played a bloody big part in post-war and I stayed in British Airways, BOAC, British Airways for the rest of my career and ended up as general manager operations control in charge of minute to minute operations worldwide. If everything went alright I didn’t have a job. If anything went wrong I did have a job. So it didn’t matter if it was crew sickness, aircraft unserviceability, somebody digging up a runway running short of fuel, a war, a bomb warning, a hijacking then that was mine. Which was very exciting. It called on all of my experience and all I knew and I loved the job and I stayed there for the rest of my career. Wonderful job. Best job in the airline. Very exciting. All, if anything went wrong it was mine and I enjoyed it.
GT: What were the airliners that were about at that time when you were? The airliners that they were flying for BOAC at the time.
DN: Well, we had Concorde and we had the Jumbo. I mean when I started it was the flying, the old Flying Boats and the Lancastrians and converted York which was a development of the Lancaster. I mean, by, by agreement during the war the Americans took on the development of civil aviation and a definite agreement that Britain would not do that. So when the war ended we did not have a civil aviation industry. So we adapted the Lancaster to the Lancastrian. We modified it to make a York. We had the Halton which was a development of the Halifax. But the Lancastrian would take, I think it was nine passengers. And we did a cannonball service from Sydney to London and it landed, I think nine times. With nine passengers. And that was the crème de la crème of British civil aviation. I mean we had Flying Boats. Well, you had TEAL. TEAL had Flying Boats down, down under. And we had those when I was in Basra. But it took a, took a long time. And, and Britain didn’t have the money. Didn’t have the dollars to buy American aircraft. Quite a long time before we managed to get ourselves on our feet with, with decent aircraft. But when I left we, certainly we had the, we’d gone through the Britannia. We’d had that. We’d gone through the VC10 and we had by then the Jumbo which was after 707 and then the Jumbo and then Concorde. But that was before we had any of the [pause] what do you call it? The French manufacturer. Anglo French manufacturer.
GT: Aerospatiale.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Before that had really got, got in to many of the civilian aircraft like the Airbus.
GT: Did you have anything to do with the Berlin Airlift? Being involved.
DN: No. No. No.
GT: Not with the airlines you had there.
DN: No.
GT: What about family then Doug? How did you get on with family? You got married. Did you have children?
DN: Yes. Two sons. One who you spoke to and an elder one who lives in London. The younger one he’s lived a very unconventional life [laughs] Has spent more time in the Antarctic than anywhere else with the British Antarctic Survey. More in the Arctic. And the elder one much more conventional. He’s an accountant. Or was an accountant and he now is a senior executive with a manufacturing company. And I mentioned that I had married the kid sister of my, the first pilot I had. So, so we had a [pause] I’ve had a bloody marvellous life. Luck has played a huge, huge amount. Opportunities that have arisen. Sheer luck.
GT: I understand you had some time with the royal family.
DN: Yeah. One of my jobs in BA was any time royalty was travelling for example if the Queen was coming out to New Zealand then I would get a phone call saying now we’ve got a flight coming up for the Queen to wherever. Give me the date. ‘How many?’ ‘Oh, about the usual crowd.’ [laughs] Allow for seventy five and seven and a half tons of baggage. Which way do you want — well for example going to New Zealand, ‘Which way do you want to go? Do you want to go east about or west about? ‘ ‘Well, you know a bloody sight more about that than I do so come up with some suggestions.’ And I, I had, I’ve got a list of over two hundred and fifty flights that I did for members of the royal family. I mean if it was the Queen then [pause] then I would decide which way. What kind of range do we want? Do we want a long range aircraft to do it in a minimum number or perhaps a smaller aircraft? And then gut the inside of the aircraft and divide it up with bulkheads to provide a lounge area, a dining area, a sleeping area and what have you. And all of the arrangements. I mean, it was good fun. And I had a fairly small team who who would get involved in that and we all took it as a challenge. So we had a lot of those.
GT: These were BOAC aircraft that you would do that to —
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: The queen did not have a Queen’s Flight at that time.
DN: No.
GT: Of her own aircraft?
DN: No. She had a number of small aircraft. They were mostly, well in the latter years they were Vickers or, anyway twin engines. Small. I can’t remember it. The old mind. But they weren’t, their own aircraft on the Queen’s Flight were essentially for use within the UK or within Europe. Or if they were going to do a big tour we would position them out there. I mean, I remember we did one where we took the Queen out to New Zealand and then she went from New Zealand to Oz and then up through the Solomon’s and what have you. And the Queen’s Flight I think positioned some of their smaller aircraft for flights between the islands. And then we went then and brought her back. That was, that was quite amusing. Before they went I said to the captain of the Queen’s Flight, ‘Well, what happens if while you’re away there’s an election?’ Because we were in a ghastly political uncertainty at the time. He said, ‘Oh, don’t worry.’ Queen Elizabeth, err Princess, ‘Princess Margaret is authorised to dissolve parliament.’ I said, ‘I’m not worried about that but if while you’re away there’s an election we’ve got to get the Queen back in time to appoint the new prime minister.’ And I remember Archie, Sir Archie Winskill who was captain of the Queen’s Flight, ‘Good thinking, my boy.’ [laughs] So I said, ‘If the election is on the Thursday as it always is you let me know where you’re going to be every Wednesday,’ which included the Cook Islands and Solomons and what have you. I said, ‘You let me know where you’re going to be every Wednesday and I will develop a plan to get home.’ So, anyway I developed these plans. Labelled each one of them with an identification letter. I said, ‘You have a copy in your briefcase and I’ll have a copy in my briefcase so at least we’re ready for it.’ And it was, oh it was a long tour. I remember it was a couple of weeks later I get a phone call. I was at home at the time but I was working on my wife’s rust bucket of a Morris Mini and my wife came and said, ‘There’s Buckingham Palace on the phone.’ And the message merely said, ‘Plan Sierra.’ And Sierra being the identity of when we were going to get her back. And we didn’t exchange another word but on the day there was our aircraft waiting for her and brought her home. And that was the kind of [pause] if you like it was good fun and everything was different. Yes. It was important and you get in trouble if you got it wrong. But no. I’m, it was a very nice simple airline job wasn’t it? Rewarding and it was exciting in a different way as my RAF time. I mean, I was extremely, extremely lucky.
GT: How long, how long were you working with the Queen’s Flight for? Or for the royal family.
DN: For really twenty four years.
GT: And I understand you received an award for your time.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
GT: And that award is?
DN: That was the Royal Victorian Order. I’m a lieutenant of the Royal Victorian Order.
GT: And the letters are?
DN: Does it do me any good? No.
GT: And I understand also you were awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Can you please describe what that was for? And when?
DN: Well, that was for really for my second tour. Not for, not for any specific operation. For whether the citation refers to the standard of the whole Squadron. Navigation standard. The whole Squadron. And gives me credit for that. And and for leading. Leading the whole of the group on one or two operations like the one when we went for the oil target and I do, I can assure you that we were going over the Channel and my skipper said, ‘Doug, come back here.’ So I come from my little compartment in the nose. He said, ‘Put your head up in the astrodome and have a, have a look behind.’ And of course there’s three hundred and fifty bloody aircraft following me. I said, ‘I don’t want to know. Don’t remind me [laughs] Just shut up.’ [laughs] Oh well. No. I was extremely fortunate. I had lots of, lots of good friends. Lots of excitement. But the, I’d say one of which experiences was the way, the way these challenges seem to come out of nowhere and I enjoyed them.
GT: Bomber Harris, your boss at the time came in for a lot of criticism.
DN: Yeah.
GT: Specifically for carpet bombing and for that of bombing major cities.
DN: Yeah.
GT: That’s potentially weren’t strategic targets.
DN: Yeah.
GT: What’s your take on that? From, from being with it.
DN: We were in a situation of total war. It wasn’t a question of tit for tat. We were [pause] it was either them or us. And by then it was obvious that as far as Hitler was concerned he didn’t give a damn about what was right and what was wrong. Whether you should bomb civilians or not. And we were in total war and I for one accepted that. I know that there were times when I pushed the bomb tit and there would be grandma and grandad and the kids down below. Ok. Sorry. We were at war. I have, I regret having to do that kind of thing. I’m not ashamed of it. And if it happened again I’d do it again. I think towards the end Harris, what Harris did think he could do he could do it on his own. And it went, proved that he couldn’t. Nuremberg for example. The Nuremberg raid demonstrated very clearly that we were [pause] that German night fighters got their act together and we were, we were up against it so. But in the, in the perhaps slightly earlier days when we were really clobbering Germany city after city after city yeah. ok. War had descended in to that and I, I have no regrets. No conscience. And I think under the circumstances Harris was right. It cost many many many many of my mates. And others as well. But sorry. That’s war.
GT: Could they have done it any other way?
DN: I don’t think so. No. I don’t think so. We couldn’t, we, the army couldn’t have done it. And we didn’t have the capability of being that precise that we could pick out targets.
GT: Some have said that without the war happening and the methods and the designs of many things in aviation aircraft and your navigation equipment that that the world actually paced forward five years.
DN: Oh.
GT: Very quickly.
DN: Unquestionably. Certainly electronics, communications, navigation aids. A lot of, oh mechanical things must have developed at a hell of a pace. Plastics. Zips. You know, you can think of a billion things that came about through war. Stimulate. It did stimulate development. God, you’re up, you’re up against it. I mean, before I, before I joined the RAF I was in a UK government research, communications research laboratory, and funnily enough developing part of the radar. The ground. Ground defences radar that we had. So as a, as a youth I was exposed to that kind of development stuff pretty well soon after I left school. Yeah.
GT: In your later years you’ve been involved with Air Force Associations. Can you tell me something about the ones that you were associated with and the titles you’ve, you’ve ended up with?
DN: Well, I was very busy with the Bomber Command Association when I was living down near London and near Oxford and I was on the Executive Committee and we were very involved in the, in the Bomber Command Memorial in London. But then when we moved up here that was impractical and I joined, well I was in the RAF Association. So I joined the local branch where we have about [pause] we had I think twenty nine members when I joined the branch. And we now have sixteen. And [pause] we don’t do very much. That’s probably Brian. Is that you Brian?
Other: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DN: When I came up here I joined the RAF Association up here where we had a very small number of members and saw even fewer. And we’re, we’re now up to about seventy members. We, we rarely see more than about a dozen of them. So we’re not able to provide much in the way of social activity and as a result most of, most of our activity is connecting, collecting for the RAF charity. The RAF charity or the RAF Benevolent Fund. So I’ve done my stint of tin rattling. And as I say we have a very small band of loyal, very loyal volunteers. And we’re trying to, desperately trying to make it more active. To get ex-RAF people up here to participate more. We’re, we’ve got a website that will be up and going in the next few weeks. We’re on Facebook. And as I say one of, one of my problems is we collect money for RAF charity. We have problems in finding local people who need it or who will accept help. And it’s a pleasure if we’re, if we can, we can find somebody who, whom we can help. So much of the money goes into an overall pot and yet up here I’m sure there must be ex-RAF people who need help. And one of my ambitions has been to try and get those people to come out of the wood work and let us know they need a bit of help. I’ve found one or two but the number of, out of our seventy members we don’t have more than about ten or twelve people who between you and me get off their backsides to do much. So there we are. Anyway, that’s it.
GT: So currently you’re the president of the Royal Air Forces Association Cockermouth Branch.
DN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
GT: And I believe thank you for your services.
DN: You’re welcome. Yeah.
GT: Is in order. Doug, it has been a pleasure talking with you today. Thank you very much for allowing me to add to the IBCC’s Digital Archive. Specifically of your Bomber Command history and experience, and, and no less at all your experiences before and your time after. And so thank you very much for that.
DN: You’re welcome.
GT: And this —
DN: It has been a crazy life you must admit. Yeah.
GT: And you’ve obviously had a time and your, your willingness to sit and chat with me is —
DN: Yeah,
GT: Is very special. Thank you. On the 27th of July 2017 I’ve been talking with Doug Newham and he, from his house here in Upton Caldbeck in Cumbria this is Glen Turner from the IBCC Archives in Lincoln and the New Zealand 75 Squadron Association secretary. And we’re signing off now. Thank you very much, Doug.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Douglas Frank Newham
Creator
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Glen Turner
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ANewhamDF170727
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Format
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01:33:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas Newham enjoyed his career as a navigator. Over his career he saw the development of technology in his chosen field. He and his crew spent some of their time as part of North West African Strategic Air Force. Following time as an instructor at an Operational Training Unit he started a second tour in Europe. He then went on to operations over Burma dropping supplies. Post war he enjoyed a very interesting career in aviation working for BOAC and BA.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
10 Squadron
150 Squadron
156 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing
Botha
C-47
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancastrian
military service conditions
mine laying
navigator
observer
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Kinloss
RAF Kirmington
RAF Melbourne
RAF Warboys
rivalry
training
Wellington
Whitley
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/9936/OMcClementsR1796607-151021-01.2.pdf
37876773f884cee04f2b153d74f0c5cd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McClements, R
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert McClements' Service and Release Book
Description
An account of the resource
Service and release book of Robert McClements last day of service 3 March 1947.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1947-04-30
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One printed book with handwritten annotations
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
OMcClementsR1796607-151021-010001
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
10 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/10067/LKirrageLG1869665v1.1.pdf
40fdceab62d6e3754a8b5c7930373995
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McClements, R
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
L Kirrage's flying log book for navigators, air bombers. air gunners and flight engineers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LKirrageLG1869665v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers for LG Kirrage, flight engineer, covering the period from 9 May 1944 to 5 July 1945. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Ricall and RAF Melbourne. He flew a total of 36 operations with 10 squadron, 18 Daylight and 18 Night operations. Targets were, Foret-de-Nieppe, Tirlemont-Gossencourt, Brest, Homberg-Heerbeck, Le Havre, Scholven, Kelsenkirchen, Keil, Boulogne, Neuss, Calais, Cleve, Essen, Cologne, Bochum, Munster, Hagen, Soest, Osnabruck, Bingen, Mulheim, Hanau, Saarbrucken, Magdeburg, Stuttgart, Mainz, Bonn, Goch, Wanne Eickel, Chemnitz and Wesel. His pilot on operations was Flight Lieutenant Grant. L Kirrage was the flight engineer in Flight Lieutenant Grant's crew and flew with Robert McClements.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Le Havre
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Goch
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Soest
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-05
1944-08-15
1944-08-17
1944-08-27
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-10-16
1944-10-17
1944-10-23
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-11-04
1944-11-18
1944-11-29
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-22
1944-12-24
1945-01-06
1945-01-14
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-01
1945-02-04
1945-02-05
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-17
1945-07-05
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
Cook’s tour
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Melbourne
RAF Riccall
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/10070/LMcClementsR1796607v1.2.pdf
f8efc45259288361bfa45e77486a57ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McClements, R
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert McClement's Flying Log Book for Navigators, Air Bombers, Air Gunners, Flight Engineers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMcClementsR1796607v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Robert McClement's Flying Log Book for Navigators, Air Bombers, Air Gunners, Flight Engineers’, from 2 January 1944 to 18 February 1945. Details training schedule and operations flown. He served at RAF Pembrey, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Riccall and RAF Melbourne. Aircraft flown were Anson, Wellington, Halifax Mk 2 and Halifax Mk 3. He carried out a total of 38 operations in one tour with 10 Squadron as an air gunner on the following targets in Belgium, France and Germany: Bingen, Bochum, Bonn, Boulogne, Brest, Calais, Chemnitz, Cologne, Essen, Falaise, Gelsenkirchen, Goch, Hagen, Hanau, Homberg, Kiel, Kleve, Le Havre, Magdeburg, Mainz, Mülheim, Münster, Neuss, Nieppe Forest, Osnabrück, Saarbrücken, Scholven, Soest, Stuttgart, Tienen, Wanne-Eickel and Wesel. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Grant and Pilot Officer Moss. Remarks include notes on targets such as oil refineries, steel works, rail centres, marshalling yards, industrial areas, shipping, troop concentrations, airfields, V-1 sites, and dropping supplies. Notes include Operation Tractable, FIDO and one operation was carried out on only three engines. Robert McClement was assessed as 'a quiet and hardworking cadet' at 1 Air Gunnery School.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean
Belgium
England
France
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Belgium--Tienen
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Falaise
France--Le Havre
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Goch
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Soest
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-05
1944-08-14
1944-08-15
1944-08-17
1944-08-27
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-10-16
1944-10-17
1944-10-23
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-11-04
1944-11-18
1944-11-29
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-22
1944-12-24
1945-01-06
1945-01-14
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-04
1945-02-05
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-17
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
20 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
FIDO
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pembrey
RAF Riccall
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/552/10402/LMaddockLyonR2205669v1.2.pdf
1dcb206504c9fe86e71aeb2f698cef0e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maddock-Lyon, Roy
R Maddock-Lyon
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MaddockLyon, R
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. An oral history interview with Roy Maddock-Lyon (- 2023, 2205669 Royal Air Force), his log book, service material, silk escape map and an album. He served as a flight engineer with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne until he was shot down on his 18th operation over Denmark 14 February 1945. Two of his crew were killed but he evaded with the help of the Danish resistance.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy Maddock-Lyon and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Roy Maddock-Lyon's flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMaddockLyonR2205669v1
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers for Roy Maddock-Lyon, flight engineer, covering the period from 12 June 1944 to 2 May 1946. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and post war flying duties. He was stationed at, RAF St Athan, RAF Rufforth, RAF Melbourne, RAF Linton-on-Ouse and RAF Wethersfield. Aircraft flown in were, Halifax, C-47 and Oxford. He flew a total of 18 operations with 10 squadron, 2 daylight and 16 night. Targets were, Essen, Cologne, Gelsenkirchen, Munster, Sterkrade, Duisburg, Hagen, Osnabruck, Bingen, Hannover, Bohlen and baling out over Denmark on operation 18 on 14 February 1945, gardening. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Grayshan. He evaded and returned to duty on 27 February from Sweden.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
Sweden
England--Essex
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saxony
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1944-10-23
1944-10-24
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-06
1944-11-18
1944-11-21
1944-11-28
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-06
1944-12-22
1944-12-30
1945-01-05
1945-01-12
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
1665 HCU
aircrew
bale out
bombing
C-47
Cook’s tour
evading
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
killed in action
mine laying
Oxford
prisoner of war
RAF Carnaby
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
RAF St Athan
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/673/17408/LAndrewsPF181152.1.pdf
4e6693a47e90ded841a6d3ff0ebe5c28
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrews, Andy
Peter Frederick Andrews
P F Andrews
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Andy Andrews (1924 - 2022, 1811552 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 10 Squadron before he was shot down on a mine laying operation 14 February 1945 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by 'Andy' Andrews and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Andrews, PF
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The page for 14 Feb 1945 has the note ‘Attacked by fighter over Denmark, aircraft blew up at 18000 ft, landed by parachute on the island of Zeeland, taken POW, liberated at Moosburg, nr Munich by Americans. Pilot F/O Grayshan and Navigator F/Sgt Berry both killed.’
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andy Andrews’ navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book for P F Andrews, wireless operator/air gunner, covering the period from 16 August 1943 to 13 December 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and post war flying. It also gives details of being shot down and baling out over Denmark and landing on Zeeland and becoming a prisoner of war and being liberated by the Americans at Moosburg, Germany. He was stationed at RAF Yatesbury, RAF Barrow, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Rufforth, RAF Melbourne and RAF Upavon. Aircraft flown in were, Dominie, Proctor, Anson, Wellington, Halifax and Oxford. He flew a total of 19 operations with 10 Squadron; 3 daylight and 16 night-time operations, before being shot down on his 19th operation. Targets were, Essen, Cologne, Gelsenkirchen, Munster, Sterkrade, Duisburg, Hagen, Osnabruck, Bingen, Hannover and Bohlen. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Grayshan. This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form: no better quality copies are available.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAndrewsPF181152
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
CC BY-NC 4.0 International license
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
Denmark--Region Sjælland
England--Cumbria
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saxony
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1944-11-06
1944-11-18
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-11-28
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-01
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-08
1944-12-09
1944-12-22
1944-12-23
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-05
1945-01-06
1945-01-12
1945-01-13
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
20 OTU
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bombing
Dominie
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
prisoner of war
Proctor
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
RAF Upavon
RAF Yatesbury
shot down
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/699/17882/LBeardKC1061851v1.1.pdf
4ad3e52cdaa59c602532ab68a2b155c3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beard, Ken
Ken C Beard
K C Beard
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history with Ken Beard (b. 1921, 1061851 Royal Air Force), his air gunners log book, and photographs of him, his wedding and his crew. He flew 31 operations as an air gunner on Halifax with 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Ken Beard and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Beard, KC
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ken Beard’s flying log book for air gunners
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for air gunner’s for Ken Beard, covering the period from 5 March 1943 to 17 June 1945. Detailing his flying training operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Pembrey, RAF Ricall, RAF Melbourne, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Stanton Harcourt and RAF Manby. Aircraft flown in were, Blenheim, Wellington, Halifax and Whitley. He flew a total of 31 operations with 10 squadron. Targets were, Peenemunde, Leverkusen, Berlin, Nuremberg, Rheydt, Baltic Sea, Meulan-les-Mureaux, Essen, Lille, Karlsruhe, Malines, Mantes Gassincourt, Lens, Aachen, Mont Fleuris and St Lo. His pilot on operations was Squadron Leader Kennedy.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBeardKC1061851v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Mechelen
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Lens
France--Les Mureaux
France--Lille
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Paris
France--Saint-Lô
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Rheydt
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Wales--Carmarthenshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Berkshire
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1943-08-17
1943-08-18
1943-08-22
1943-08-23
1943-08-24
1943-08-27
1943-08-28
1943-08-31
1943-09-01
1944-02-03
1944-02-04
1944-02-05
1944-02-15
1944-02-22
1944-03-03
1944-03-24
1944-03-26
1944-03-27
1944-03-30
1944-03-31
1944-04-09
1944-04-10
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-04-26
1944-04-27
1944-04-28
1944-05-01
1944-05-02
1944-05-07
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-22
1944-05-23
1944-05-24
1944-05-25
1944-06-03
1944-06-04
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
10 OTU
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
17 OTU
20 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Manby
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pembrey
RAF Riccall
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stanton Harcourt
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/510/22829/LDunnGC149315v1.1.pdf
fcfad9b0b8798eadff914a6413250601
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dunn, George
George Charles Dunn
G C Dunn
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dunn, GC
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Two oral history interviews with George Dunn DFC (1922 1333537, 149315 Royal Air Force), a photograph a document and two log books. He flew operations as a pilot with 10, 76, and 608 Squadrons then transferred to 1409 Meteorological Flight.
There is a sub collection of his photographs from Egypt.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
George C Dunn’s pilot's flying log book. One
Description
An account of the resource
Pilot's flying log book one, for George C Dunn, covering the period from 11 January 1942 to 30 July 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RCAF Caron, RCAF Weyburn, RAF Chipping Norton, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Melbourne, RAF Rufforth, RAF Driffield, RAF Linton on Ouse, RAF Finningley, RAF Worksop, RAF Church Broughton, RAF Lulsgate Bottom, RAF Upper Heyford, RAF Barford St John, RAF Downham Market, RAF Wyton and RAF Upwood. Aircraft flown in were Tiger Moth, Anson, Oxford, Wellington, Halifax, Mosquito and Lancaster. He flew a total of 42 night operations, 2 with 10 squadron, 28 with 76 squadron and 12 with 608 Squadron. Targets were Essen, Kiel, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Wuppertal, Krefeld, Mulheim, Bochum, Gelsenkirchen, Cologne, Aachen, Montbeliard, Hamburg, Remscheid, Manheim, Milan, Peenemunde, Leverkusen, Berlin, Munich, Montlucon, Modane and Kassel. His pilot for his first 'second dickie' operation was Pilot Officer Hellis. The log book also contains two target photographs of Berlin and an aerial photo of an airfield.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LDunnGC149315v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Derbyshire
England--Norfolk
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Somerset
England--Yorkshire
France--Modane
France--Montbéliard
France--Montluçon
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Munich
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Remscheid
Germany--Wuppertal
Italy--Milan
Saskatchewan--Moose Jaw
Saskatchewan--Weyburn
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Mannheim
Saskatchewan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1943-04-03
1943-04-04
1943-04-05
1943-05-23
1943-05-24
1943-05-25
1943-05-26
1943-05-27
1943-05-28
1943-05-29
1943-05-30
1943-06-11
1943-06-12
1943-06-13
1943-06-21
1943-06-22
1943-06-23
1943-06-24
1943-06-25
1943-06-26
1943-06-28
1943-06-29
1943-07-03
1943-07-04
1943-07-09
1943-07-10
1943-07-13
1943-07-14
1943-07-15
1943-07-16
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-07-31
1943-08-02
1943-08-03
1943-08-09
1943-08-10
1943-08-12
1943-08-13
1943-08-17
1943-08-18
1943-08-22
1943-08-23
1943-08-24
1943-09-06
1943-09-07
1943-09-15
1943-09-16
1943-09-17
1943-09-29
1943-09-30
1943-10-03
1943-10-04
1945-03-01
1945-03-02
1945-03-03
1945-03-04
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-09
1945-03-10
1945-03-11
1945-03-12
1945-03-13
1945-03-14
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-18
1945-03-29
1945-03-30
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-12
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-15
1945-04-16
1945-04-17
1945-05-11
1945-05-14
1945-05-23
1945-05-28
1945-05-31
1945-06-16
1945-06-22
10 Squadron
16 OTU
1663 HCU
18 OTU
20 OTU
608 Squadron
76 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Cook’s tour
Flying Training School
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Barford St John
RAF Chipping Norton
RAF Church Broughton
RAF Downham Market
RAF Driffield
RAF Finningley
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Worksop
RAF Wyton
target photograph
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/921/22837/LLawsonHA19210824v1.2.pdf
0b31cd5f1a7f8dc2383468fbb1e58e6e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lawson, Homer
Harold Lawson
H Lawson
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Susanne Pescott about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Lawson DFC (b. 1921, 1544881, 177469 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and album. He flew operations as a navigator with 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susanne Pescott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lawson, HA
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Homer Lawson’s observer’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Observer’s and air gunner’s flying log book for H A Lawson, navigator, covering the period from 19 January 1943 to 2 November 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown, instructor duties and post war duties with 77 squadron. He was stationed at RAF Llandwrog, RAF Penrhos, RAF Forres, RAF Rufforth, RAF Melbourne, RAF Balmageith, RAF Kinloss, RAF Full Sutton, RAF Broadwell, RAF Kargi Road and RAF Mauripur. Aircraft flown in were Anson, Whitley, Halifax, Wellington and Dakota. He flew a total of 38 operations with 10 squadron, 6 daylight and 32 night. His pilot on operations was Flight Sergeant Hewitt. Targets were Berlin, Kiel, Meulan le Meureaux, La Rochelle, Trappes, Le Mans, Tergnier, Ottignes, Dusseldorf, Karlsruhe, Essen, Mantes-Gassicourt, Cherbourg, Berneval, Trouville, Ferme D’Urville, The Hague, Mont Fleurie, St Lo, Lorient, Brest, Douai, Rennes, Noyelle en Chausee, Blaineville, Blainville, St Martin L’Hortier, Croixdalle, Heligoland, Mont Candon, Vaires and Bottrop.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Cara Walmsley
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LLawsonHA19210824v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Netherlands
India
Pakistan
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Belgium--Ottignies
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Abbeville Region
France--Bayeux
France--Berneval-le-Grand
France--Brest
France--Cherbourg Region
France--Coutances Region
France--Douai
France--La Rochelle
France--Le Mans
France--Lorient
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Meulan
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
France--Normandy
France--Rambouillet
France--Rennes
France--Saint-Lô
France--Tergnier (Canton)
France--Trouville-sur-Mer
France--Vaires-sur-Marne
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
India--Kota
Netherlands--Hague
Pakistan--Karachi
Wales--Gwynedd
Scotland--Moray Firth
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Croixdalle
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1943-12-29
1943-12-30
1944-01-29
1944-02-25
1944-03-02
1944-03-03
1944-03-04
1944-03-06
1944-03-07
1944-03-08
1944-03-11
1944-04-04
1944-04-05
1944-04-10
1944-04-11
1944-04-18
1944-04-19
1944-04-20
1944-04-21
1944-04-22
1944-04-23
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-04-26
1944-04-27
1944-05-06
1944-05-08
1944-05-09
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-12
1944-06-01
1944-06-02
1944-06-03
1944-06-04
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
1944-06-09
1944-06-10
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-14
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-24
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-06-29
1944-07-01
1944-07-04
1944-07-06
1944-07-12
1944-07-13
1944-07-17
1944-07-18
1944-07-20
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
19 OTU
77 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
C-47
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
mine laying
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Kinloss
RAF Llandwrog
Raf Mauripur
RAF Melbourne
RAF Penrhos
RAF Rufforth
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1484/27714/LCarpenterRB1291451v1.2.pdf
c131c492fd432051e4d11e0b14fc067f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carpenter, Ronald
R B Carpenter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Carpenter, RB
Description
An account of the resource
27 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Ronald Carpenter DFM (149832 Royal Air Force). He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron and with 223 Squadron in 100 Group on electronic countermeasures. The collection contains his log book, documents and photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ronald Carpenter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ronald Carpenter’s observer’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LCarpenterRB1291451v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
India
Italy
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Berkshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Surrey
England--Yorkshire
England--Wiltshire
France--Le Creusot
France--Le Havre
France--Lorient
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Flensburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Koblenz
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Italy--Genoa
Poland--Szczecin
Scotland--Ross and Cromarty
India--New Delhi
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
1953
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-08-11
1942-09-01
1942-09-02
1942-09-04
1942-09-05
1942-09-10
1942-09-11
1942-09-14
1942-09-15
1942-09-26
1942-09-27
1942-10-13
1942-10-14
1942-10-23
1942-10-24
1942-11-15
1942-11-16
1943-01-14
1943-01-15
1943-01-21
1943-02-19
1943-02-25
1943-02-26
1943-02-27
1943-03-08
1943-03-09
1943-03-10
1943-03-11
1943-03-12
1943-04-08
1943-04-09
1943-04-10
1943-04-11
1943-04-20
1943-04-21
1943-05-25
1943-05-26
1943-05-27
1943-05-28
1943-06-11
1943-06-12
1943-06-19
1943-06-20
1943-06-21
1943-06-22
1943-07-13
1943-07-14
1943-08-10
1943-08-11
1944-10-09
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-10-24
1944-11-18
1944-11-19
1944-11-21
1944-11-25
1944-11-27
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-01
1944-12-02
1944-12-04
1944-12-08
Description
An account of the resource
Observer’s and air gunner’s flying log book for R B Carpenter, bomb aimer, covering the period from 16 May 1941 to 30 April 1945 and from 13 November 1950 to 27 May 1953. Detailing his flying training, operations flown, instructor duties and post war flying with 15 Reserve Flying School. He was stationed at RAF Evanton, RAF Cranwell, RAF Yatesbury, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Pocklington, RAF Melbourne, RAF Abingdon, RAF Manby, RAF Blakehill Farm, RAF Oulton, RAF New Delhi and RAF Redhill. Aircraft flown in were Proctor, Dominie, Whitley, Botha, Anson, Wellington, Halifax, Oxford, Blenheim, Martinet, Liberator and Dakota. He flew one operation with 102 Squadron, 28 operations with 10 Squadron and 13 operations with 223 Squadron, 3 daylight and 10 night operations in a radio counter measures role. Targets were Bremen, Le Havre, Saarbrucken, Dusseldorf, Wilhelmshaven, Flensburg, Kiel, Genoa, Lorient, St Nazaire, Nuremburg, Cologne, Munich, Stuttgart, Duisburg, Frankfurt, Stettin, Essen, Le Creusot, Krefeld, Aachen, Coblenz, Mainz, Mannheim, and Mönchengladbach. His pilots on operations were Squadron Leader Debenham, Flight Sergeant Virgo and Pilot Officer Tompson.
10 OTU
10 Squadron
100 Group
102 Squadron
12 OTU
223 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
B-24
Blenheim
bomb aimer
bombing
Botha
C-47
Dominie
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Martinet
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Cranwell
RAF Evanton
RAF Manby
RAF Melbourne
RAF Oulton
RAF Pocklington
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
Whitley