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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/7/13/ADerringtonAP150715-01.2.mp3
2af1448baa606754816904ab2f0786c3
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Title
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Derrington, Arnold Pearce
Arnold Pearce Derrington
Arnold P Derrington
Arnold Derrington
A P Derrington
A Derrington
Description
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Two oral history interviews with Dr Arnold Pearce Derrington DFC (- 2016, 187333 Royal Air Force), a navigator with 462 and 466 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Derrington, AP
Date
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2015-07-15
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and I am conducting an interview with Doctor Arnold Pierce Derrington and we are in his house in Cornwall and we are going to talk about his experiences over the years in the RAF but starting off in his early days and then after the war with his civilian career. Today is the 14th July 2015 and I’m asking Derry to start in the early days. What was your background Derry and how did all of that progress?
DD: Well I was a child in Devon. I came to Cornwall at the age of eighteen months to live at St Erth. That’s still my model village and I was there until about 1930 and the family had grown by then and we moved to Marazion near St Michael’s Mount and I had my childhood days there. Very happy memories of Marazion and I still see friends from there and still hear from there.
I had a friend living nearby in a place called [?] and he was a navigator too. He’d been a clerk in an agricultural merchants and the, he went into the air force, and did a tour with Coastal Command and was posted to Rhodesia where he was an instructor. When he died eventually I spread his ashes from a lifeboat in Mounts Bay. But he and I were childhood friends. We were little rogues really because his father was a policeman and the father was very incensed sometimes. Some man came to him and said someone’s put water in the petrol of my motor tank in the tank the petrol tank of my motorbike and it turned out that we two boys had done it. Very embarrassing for the policemen. That boy’s sister is still alive. She visits me occasionally.
And at Marazion I was at the county school at Penzance and never dreamed I’d be flying. I saw Alan Cobham’s Air Circus. I’ve got his little notebook here. It’s in that blue container there. Do you have it? Alan Cobham’s book. That’s it. And I have a very dear friend I haven’t seen for seventy seven years. I went to that air display with his parents. And that was an air display that flew around with trailers behind the planes saying where the display was taking place and we were talking recently about that actual airfield which is between Marazion and Haile and my mother said, ‘Don’t you dare go up flying’ and I was offered a free flight and I did say no but within ten years I’d done a tour and got a DFC. It’s amazing how things go on isn’t it?
Now, where do we go from there now? I was at Marazion in the LDV or Home Guard and when I went to college at Exeter I decided to join the LDV there. And after a month or so the University Air Squadron was opening up in Exeter and I joined that and I was at St Luke’s, Exeter which was a teacher training place and until the last two or three years there were a few of us around but I’m the last one of them still going strong. One of the chaps Archie Smith from St Austell was on the county council with my wife. She was a councillor and had a very good career about it. She ended up with an MBE.
Well I went on then to University Air Squadron from this Home Guard lot there and I’ve even got a greeting telegram somewhere from a relation congratulating me on joining this University Air Squadron. I could dig that out if you want to see a picture of it I expect.
And well it was good training. We had a, a, a commanding officer called Searle who was the head of the physics department at Exeter and he had an adjutant called Crosscut and the main chap we met from an interesting flying point of view had the Croix de Guerre. He was a rear gunner. He was badly scarred.
And from the University Air Squadron I was attested in Weston Super Mare in June 1942 and that same month I joined the air force at Lords Cricket Ground. Our first payday, first money I’d earned in my life cause having been University Air Squadron I was a leading aircraftsmen and we were very superior indeed to the AC plonks. They only got a half a crown a day. And after a short time at Lords I was posted to Manchester to await overseas posting but they discovered that I needed corrective goggles so I was sent down to Brighton Aircrew Dispersal Wing, ACDW and had a very happy time there staying in a huge great hotel, sleeping on rough beds at the Hotel Metropole. And there was another one The Grand there was well and the [air?] parade still took place in those days and we saw some of the rather shaky soldiers who came back from there.
And from ACDW I was posted to grading school Ansty near Coventry. I was made into, well I did fly in a Tiger Moth but I was made into as a navigator and I’m very glad I was because it kept me going during the very horrible times that we were doing operations. I had my head down getting on with the job. I did look out a time or two but it was so horrific I got back to my base very soon and from the grading school I went to Blackpool waiting for overseas posting and from Liverpool I sailed to South Africa. It wasn’t straightforward because we were afraid of the submarines that might have damaged us so we went across the coast to America and then back again to freestone, Freetown and then from Freetown down around the Cape to Durban. We didn’t get off the boat at all. I was on gun duty on oerlikons.
When we got to Durban we went to a transit camp called Clairwood and there we were thrown an empty linen case and told to stuff it with grass because that would be our palliasse bed and the toilets, they were like huge great egg racks. I think there was accommodation for about eighty. And they fed us very well. It was very nice. The novelty of South Africa was interesting indeed. I met very interesting people there who worked in the Red Shield Club and they invited us into their homes and there was one family called Thornton who had a son same age as myself training as a doctor. I’ve heard from him right until recently when he died. And when I moved away from East London to Durban, Durban to East London we did some training in the air force work there. I went up there to do night flying at a place called Aliwal North and that was a place outside the town of Queenstown. It was a very strange volcanic rock there with a big flat top called [?] and there was [?] Association and I was a member of that for a long time and correspondence kept on.
And I met a dear man who was flying beside me called Harry Dunn. Because my name came in the alphabet first before his I was graded as first navigator he was graded as second navigator. And well I did turn out to be a better one than he did because I came top of the course. But Harry came to me when we went to our next stage up at Queenstown almost in tears. He said, “My maths is no good at all. Will you coach me?” Harry was out with the girls and drinking and didn’t bother at all really. He was good company but very happy go lucky.
And well we both got through and he came back with me on the same troopship back through Tufik (?)in the Red Sea. And the Germans were still in Italy and we had a lot of women and children on board who were being repatriated from India. They were service families. And they weren’t going to take any risks. When the Germans were clear, after a fortnight in Tufik we came back through the Mediterranean and home in time for Christmas 1943. And we were very popular because we brought back things which were normally rationed.
I bought a lovely Omega watch in East London for seven pounds ten shillings and well the same watch these days is nearly two thousand pounds. I lost that but that’s another story. I’ve bought another Omega since. I navigated on that one all the way through. They issued us with proper watches but I was delighted with my Omega. And I believe I had to hand wind it. I’d rather forgotten but recently I’ve seen the certificate when I bought the watch and apparently it had to be handed in to be oiled every year. Well mine never got any oil on it at all and I navigated on it pretty well. I was very happy with it. Delighted with my Omega.
Now where have we got? Oh yes. We were posted after Christmas leave, to West Freugh to acclimatise to British conditions and we flew up and down the Hebrides. Very fascinating indeed. I saw Iona which has a church which is the same pattern as our village church here in Pendeen - cruciform. And after going to this unit at West Freugh Harry got posted off to Transport Command and I was posted to Bomber Command. We were told, ‘write your wills. You won’t be here in six weeks time.’ I thought I’d find out how Harry’s going on. No reply. Wrote his parents – no reply. So I thought, well that’s it. I still have a lovely photo of him.
And I went on from West Freugh to, let’s see, OTU at Moreton in Marsh. Operational Training Unit. And that was on Wellingtons. In the meantime Harry had gone to Canada and became a fur merchant after the Transport Command experience as a fur merchant like his father was. And twenty or fifty years later on his conscience was pricking him because he had borrowed a book from an old aunt living near Bath and he came back to England from Canada to take this book to her. She was dead. Had an uncle ten miles away. Went to see him. He was dead too. So he thought I’m so far west I’ll go down Penzance and see old Derry. He didn’t tell me he was coming. I didn’t know where he was. I hadn’t forgotten him. And that day my wife and I were taking an old lady to hospital so we weren’t there in order to see him and Harry caught the train back to [?] to stay or he hoped to stay with a [sugar bidder[?]] there that he played rugby with before the war. When he got to the a [sugar bidder[?]] house he was out but the caretaker said, “Come on in and have a meal. He’ll be back in the morning.” and he was telling his tale of the book and going down to Penzance to see an old navigator friend. And that caretaker said was that navigator called Derry Derrington. He said, “How did you know that?” “I sat beside him on thirty one operations in bomber command. He was my navigator. I was his bomb aimer.” That dear boy has died since but his wife is still alive.
So after being at West Freugh Operational Training Unit there we crewed up, six of us, because we only had Wellingtons. We weren’t on a four engine outfit so we needed a flight engineer later and we gelled as a crew very quickly. Our pilot was an Australian called Les Evans, a dairy farmer’s son and he came from a place called Kingaroy in Queensland. And Les Evans was a very good pilot. He had been an instructor. We were all good chaps. We were never, there never was as good a crew as we are. Charlie will think so too. Charlie was friendly with another gunner called Dennis Cleaver and those two had crewed up together and they were looking for somebody to join and my pilot, Les Evans chose me for his navigator. I was delighted. Didn’t care whether he was Australian or Chinese or whatever he was. He was a dear old boy.
And after Les Evans, he and I were together, we chose the oldest wireless operator we could get and that was Tom Windsor. Tom was thirty one. We thought he was our grandfather [laughs] and Tom was a good old boy with the girls. One of the joking things which Charlie and I still talk about he used to say, “I’d like as many shillings,” and what that definitely meant we don’t quite know but we could guess all sorts of things. We were quite youngsters really in our early twenties. Tom was thirty one.
And well, we had Jonah who was in antiques with his brother. I was a trainee schoolmaster just qualified. Tom Windsor was a bookies clerk and Charlie and Dennis, the gunners, were both fitters and there were six of us. And we did OTU work at Moreton in the Marsh on Wellingtons and that was good. I saw my area where I live here from the air for the first time. I had been to see Alan Cobham’s Air Circus and did a flight - very limited indeed, but this was very wonderful to see our area from the, I suppose it was about ten thousand feet.
Well from the OTU we were posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit to get used to a four engine aircraft and we picked up an engineer who had been on the Queen Mary - Jock. Dear boy. Scotsman. A wee haggis we called him and he was good. In fact we had the most hair raising experience when we were doing a flight near the Isle Of Man because he had to change the petrol tanks over every so often in order to balance the aircraft, trim it up properly and he needed to go to the elsan and whether he was there longer then he should have done or what we don’t know but two engines cut out on us and I as navigator had to hold the escape hatch open, I did, ready for the crew to bailout and we got, Jonah, no Jock the engineer came back quickly, switched the right tanks over and she picked up and there we were again but we were very dicey indeed in those days.
Well we started our tour of operations. We were posted from our Heavy Conversion Unit to Driffield in Yorkshire just about twenty miles north of Hull. A lovely peacetime station. And the pilot did a second dickey, that is to give him experience. In the meantime we did all sorts of training to keep us well and fit. And on from there we started our own tour. And the first trip was an easy one cap griz nez. It was to do with army cooperation.
The second trip is one that was probably the most momentous in our lives. It was to a flying bomb site. Now on our back from leave we’d gone through London. We’d seen the headlines - Pilotless Aircraft over England and well those were the V1s and we didn’t know what that would mean and we were told this was a highly secret operation. We were not to talk to anybody about it at all and we were going to hit this target over, in daylight, at minute intervals. And as we were going down the country toward Beachy Head some silly bounder flying alongside us pressed the wrong button and what the crew were saying among themselves mentioned the name of the target. And that was [?] for the Germans. My pilot could see that every other aircraft was being shot down and he climbed an extra two thousand feet after Beachy Head [?] and did a shallow dive on the target. That gave us that bit more speed and we got there that split second before the minute was up but the flack came up and the Germans shot down one of their own fighters on our tail. Oh the gunners were quite screaming about it and we really felt we were getting acclimatised.
Well we got back from that we knew we’d got an aiming point. I’ve got a reconnaissance photograph of it here. It’s in my file which I’ll talk to you about later. That big fat file there is a list of all the things we did. All the, and I think it’s quite unique because the Australians were such a happy go lucky mob they didn’t collect them from us to shred them like most other people had done. I’ve got a complete unique set of operations and I know that we did well. We were good at wind finding and we did PFF support because we used to broadcast the wind that we found that was used by the master bomber.
Now where did we go from there? Well we did thirty one ops. Mainly over the Ruhr - Happy Valley, Flak Alley - all sorts of names for it and we got hit a time or two but we luckily came back and a lot of our dear chaps didn’t. I got back from a week’s leave and found seven complete crews wiped out. And they were dear boys. They were a jolly lot. They were mad as hatters. Motorbikes going around the mess, footprints on the ceiling. My speciality was doing forward rolls on the top of billiard tables or else in the fireplace. I’ve been told this later but I don’t remember it. And one chap flying with us he was the navigation leader he smoked his pipe through the side of the oxygen mask which was a little bit risky I think what do you think? Would you fancy doing that?
CB: No.
DD: No. No sensible person would I’m sure. In the middle of my tour I came home once and I thought I I’ll go up and see how my dad was getting on and I found him lying dead in the garden beside a bonfire. He’d had a stroke at the age of fifty four. That was, I was the oldest one of four children and my brother and I are the only two in our family now left but that was a great shock to me. It was the first dead person I’d seen and I was very saddened about it. I determined I wasn’t going to do any more flying when my tour was up although we were invited to be PFF people but I explained that I was the eldest of four and I couldn’t go back again and it wasn’t held against me. I was with a very fair lot.
The Aussies were a mad, happy lot. I got on wonderfully well with them. They were dears. And I never knew them do a bad, evil deed with anybody at all. They were wonderful. You’ll see pictures of some of them and some of the targets we had in my main logbook there.
Well we did get through our tour. I say the general thanksgiving every day for our creation, preservation. Preservation deeply underlined because we were preserved from all sorts of horrible things and we were able to save ourselves and our country by what we did. My Charlie, the rear gunner has a grandson I think it is who’s a Member of Parliament. There’s a photograph of him up there and I’ve got a letter of his in my general logbook here saying, ‘If I can do a much for the country as you chaps in Bomber Command then I shall feel I’ve done well.’ He’s a Doctor of Medicine as well as a Member of Parliament and I believe he had an increased majority at the last election. Charlie’s very proud of him. Charlie comes down this way on holiday occasionally. He was staying at a place called Mousehole not far from here with his, this man’s brother owns it and Charlie and his wife were down and we had some wonderful times together.
Earlier on I was talking about my friend in Canada who was, who met my bomb aimers crew over in Effingham near Goring and when this Harry came at one time he gave me my computer. Do you know it?
CB: I do.
AS: It’s a whizz wheel.
DD: A Dalton.
AS: A Dalton computer, yeah.
DD: A Dalton mark 3. While we were training as navigators this was our bible AP1234. There is an AP4567. I’ve seen it but I can’t get another copy. Anyhow, where I got this I don’t really remember but it was a precious book.
Well the tour was horrific. I wouldn’t have missed it for the world but I wouldn’t wish anyone else to have done it. And the crew were magnificent. We never had any quarrels or arguments. Les was a wonderful leader and well the mid gunner was a bit dicey sometimes but he was a jolly old boy and he loved singing too. We got on well. Talking about singing I’ve got a list of some of the ribald songs we sang.
We had lots of waiting around and because I live in the sticks down here in West Cornwall it took a long time to travel from Yorkshire to Cornwall. Twenty seven hours usually, stopping in London overnight very often, that I couldn’t come home on a forty eight hour pass. The time would be spent all with travelling and I passed my time away by doing this. This was my engagement present for my wife. This I did on an engineer’s bench in Air Force Station Driffield. The Song of Songs. In the back it says where it was done. Bound and written out by Arnold P Derrington between October and December 1944 at Driffield. I’m very proud of the title page of it. And I gave this to my wife and it will be my daughter’s eventually and this is the main title page. There.
CB: Wow.
DD: The Song of Songs. And I have bound a book before under ideal conditions but that was done on an engineer’s bench. The leatherwork as well and it’s very precious as you can imagine.
CB: What prompted you to do that?
DD: Pardon?
CB: What prompted you to do that?
DD: Well the language in it is very lovely and I felt it was a suitable engagement present for my wife.
[pause]
I’m wondering what is the next thing to talk about?
CB: Would you like to have a break?
DD: Hmmn?
CB: Would you like to have a break?
DD: No.
CB: Ok.
DD: No.
CB: So you said it was horrendous on operations so could you describe a typical operation that was hairy please?
DD: I got a diary which is totally illegal. There’s a black book over there somewhere. That’s it I think
[pause]
Yes diary of an RAF career after the 20th June ACRC etcetera. A tour of operations. An illegal document. Well its written, there’s quite a bit of detail there and I used it on one occasion for the people who are writing a history of our squadron. You see a book there, a big heavy book. That’s it. And my grandson Adam, who is going to have this stuff was so delighted he bought a copy for himself and, I was given a gratis copy and the two chaps who wrote it one is called Lax he was an ex air commodore and the other man there, a hyphenated name he was a chemistry professor very near where my daughter who lives in Australia. I’ve never met these two chaps but I’ve just had phone calls from them and with extracts from our diary and other things o sent them they got fifty references to us as a crew in that book. What’s it called again?
CB: To See the Dawn Again.
DD: To See the Dawn, yes. Well number, operation number eighteen. After much lighting, lightning the usual restless night I woke to a lovely morning. No signs of movement. Today is St Luke’s day. What happy memories it recalls. Possibly too many of us over the world - Canada, Africa, India, Gib West Indies and dear old England. Have I longed to, how I’ve longed to be on the cliffs today. Hanging around in the morning. FFI in the afternoon. Promise of pay then wait. Nothing doing. Draughts and roll call. Detailed for more, for move off tomorrow. I can’t read my own writing. Five weeks have elapsed since I heard from Helen and another five weeks will pass before I hear anything more. [?] I hadn’t done any operations that day.
CB: So this was a diary that you kept in addition to your logbook was it?
DD: Yes my logbooks are rather scruffy looking things.
CB: Yes I saw it on there.
DD: The South African one.
CB: Right.
DD: If I’d had it in England it would have had a rather nice blue cloth cover instead of a plain cover like that.
CB: Right ok. What prompted you to keep the diary?
DD: Oh just being [fussy?] and breaking regulations sort of thing.
[pause]
DD: I ought to be reading my own writing but I can’t.
CB: Well off the top of your head though what would you say was the most hair raising experience you had in a raid?
DD: Well even in the last raid we did. It was the 27th of December and we were going to the Ruhr and I’d had flu and I didn’t feel like flying at all. It wasn’t a case of LMF and it wasn’t a case of jitters it was a case of finishing near the end of the tour but I just did not feel well. My pilot Les said come on you’re alright you’ve always done well for us so far on previous occasions and off we went and I got taken sick and Jonah was sitting next to me the bomb aimer and I could tell him what to do when I couldn’t do it myself. And then I passed out and the heating failed at minus forty four. And we had to come down and I just vaguely knew what was happening. We had to come down to ten thousand feet because of the oxygen shortage. The heating had failed and the oxygen failed as well. And we had bombs being dropped by our own chaps up above and they were shooting at us down below and the fighters on our tail but I was able to work out the courses for the pilot. I’m sure you all know what the preparation is beforehand and there are estimated courses and things which one should take and as a navigator I’d worked that out in the briefing beforehand and I just read off from those and applied variation and deviation and gave the pilot those courses and we got through where we were going and whether we hit the target or not I don’t know because I handed over to Jonah, the bomb aimer. And on the way back I was feeling very unwell indeed and this was all due to the flu business I think. Anyhow, we did get back and thank God for that. That was a very hair raising situation to be in. I didn’t like feeling unable to do the job I had to do.
It was a very necessary job but a very horrible job and when I think we were trained to kill it’s a very revolting thought but if we didn’t do it we would have had much worse done to us as a nation and so I was very grateful to have got through my tour and because we were the only pommie crew amongst a lot of Australians they didn’t discriminate against us. Maybe we were favoured all the more I don’t know but they were dear fellows. We loved the lot of them and a very sad time it was when some got lost. There’s a recording of so many names of people who were lost after an operation.
That was a bit hair raising. Anything else you’d like to ask me?
CB: Yeah in practical terms was after the pilot was the navigator the most worked member of the crew?
DD: Oh yes and I was glad I was occupied like that. I didn’t see some of the horrible things that were going on but I had to record things. I had to give him new courses if need be and my main job was wind finding and I was able to do that well and our winds that we found were picked up, were broadcast so PFF could pick them up. And we were helpers of PFF we weren’t direct PFF people but PFF support was the denomination that we were given.
CB: So what is PFF?
DD: Pathfinders.
CB: Pathfinder right.
DD: Yes. They could wear a very special little golden wing.
[pause]
There’s a little map showing Elvington and such places we were talking about. You’ve got it alright?
CB: Yes thank you yeah.
CB Now on your plane.
DD: On?
CB On your Halifax did you have H2S?
DD: Oh yes.
CB: How did you use that?
DD: Yes.
CB: How did you use it?
DD: Well there was good screen to pick up the shape of towns and if a town had particular projection on one corner we could take a bearing on that and know where we were and I’ve got one chart in my, the big book which you can look at later on and I’ll show you a map which was specially adapted for H2S work. Gee was our main help and I’ve a Gee chart there. That gave us position line and we took a fix every six minutes and that was very handy because six minutes is a tenth of an hour and we could use the decimal point to move whatever our speed was. It was my job to find out what speed we were going. If we were getting to a place too early we’d have to do a dog leg beforehand. Do you know what that means?
CB: Just a weave.
DD: It was an equilateral triangle.
CB: Oh right.
DD: And you flew sides of it instead of a third and you just dodged with a piece across the bottom and you could lose two minutes or three if you would but that if you did that you were taking a colossal risk because you were crossing the main stream coming along. We were pretty close to each other sometimes.
CB: You couldn’t see them could you?
DD: No and there were times when you felt the slipstream of other aircraft almost as if the plane had hit a brick wall. She juddered because of it. Can you imagine that?
CB: How did you do your wind finding?
DD: Joining up the position on the ground to the position in the air and taking the vector that you got between the two you could work out the speed and the direction of the wind. The angle between the air position and the ground position gave you the direction of the wind. The length of the vector a quarter of the time you’d been working in the air you could work out the speed. It was done, this computer, are you aware what it was like? We had a red and green end on the pencil. It’s a laptop.
[pause]
DD: Had you seen one of these? No?
CB: No.
DD: No? Well speeds are set like that, went around that way and you put your wind on and you take a reading off against this point here and you know what angle we were working on.
CB: So this is the navigational computer mark 3, the Dalton Computer.
DD: And this was the circular slide rule converting centigrade to fahrenheit. Nautical to statute miles and so on. And my dear old friend on Transport Command brought that home from Canada for me.
CB: Oh did he? So it wasn’t standard issue in -
DD: Yes.
CB: The RAF? Was it?
DD: Oh yes.
CB: Oh it was. Right.
DD: Have a good look at it.
CB: Yes.
DD: And in that navigation manual there it tells you how to use it.
CB: Yeah.
DD: It talks about the duties of a navigator as such in that book too. The Navigator’s Bible.
CB: So back on operations a lot of it was the Ruhr. How did you actually find the target?
DD: Oh well the Pathfinders had been ahead normally and dropped flares. In daylight of course. It was a matter of the bomb aimer having taken near the target he’d then take over when we were say within ten miles of it, whateve,r and the target, when the PFF marked it, they had different methods of dropping flares. One name, I almost get nightmares about it - Wanganui. That was the name of an island near where Pathfinder Bennett lived. I’ve seen it from the air. Charlie Derby who you’ve met had been right around the south island of New Zealand and so had I. We went out at different times and stayed with Les Evans and his family. Les Evans has been here and stayed with us too. And Wanganui was the, when they dropped three different colours of flares and the master bomber would be overhead circling, looking down at the target and he’d give the bomb aimer instructions, drop your bombs to the right of the yellow flares or whatever. Yellow flares, red flares and green flares. Those were what we used.
And just to explain that Les Evans was an Australian but he emigrated to New Zealand.
DD: He married a New Zealand girl.
CB: Oh right.
DD: And he moved to Auckland.
CB: Right ok. So when you weren’t on operational flights what were you doing?
DD: Well keeping, getting as near to the right track as possible to the next turning point and we didn’t fly directly there. I can show you some little dots on little charts I’ve got there. Show you the operations we did and I’ve drawn them on straight lines but we never flew directly to the targets. This was in order to fox the Germans and we did all sorts of zigzags and shapes like that. And we also dropped window. Do you know what that is?
CB: Yeah.
DD: There’s some bits of window in my main big heavy blue book there. One of the wireless operator’s jobs used to throw out leaflets, propaganda leaflets. One thing which is rather saddening I had a lovely collection of leaflets and on one occasions when I was talking to a group somebody pinched them. I’ve got a few leaflets left but not the main lot that I did have.
CB: A collectable item.
DD: I suppose so yes.
So when you’re flying to the target you’re in a stream.
DD: Yes.
You’ve no idea where the other aircraft are. You said there were a number of issues, things that happened and you were glad you weren’t watching them because you were navigating so what sort of thing was that?
DD: Well it was up to the gunners and the bomb aimer went down into the nose. And they were keeping their eyes open for other aircraft too. We had no lights on of course as you can imagine and the pilot of course was alert to see that he was avoiding any other aircraft and you could feel the slipstream of other aircraft sometimes. It was quite a jolt at times to feel that but I still stayed at my post as navigator recording what was said by other people if it was necessary to record it and also making sure that I could easily feed the pilot with the course to steer once we’d been to the target.
I have rather an interesting business happening. Every October I go to a place called Porthleven and that’s where Guy Gibson was and I was flying at the same time as Guy Gibson but not actually on the same operations as he was and the people of Porthleven, he was there as a boy they’ve got a plaque up on a wall near the town clock which is away on a wing beside the harbour and because I’m a flying fellow I get invited over to it each year and they come and collect me for it and it’s a wonderful occasion. Very heartrending. And people reminiscent of their experiences of Guy Gibson as a child living in the town. Porthleven is about thirty miles from here I suppose. Out towards the Lizard Peninsula.
CB: As a crew, as a crew you did everything together.
DD: Oh yes.
CB: So when you weren’t flying what were doing?
DD: Writing that book you saw. Difficult to say. Ordinary sort of things. We visited local towns and did a bit of shopping. We weren’t a drinking party.
CB: Did you have many tasks to do on the airfield though?
DD: No.
CB: When you weren’t flying?
DD: Orderly Officer sometimes.
CB: Ahum.
DD: I was orderly officer on one occasion and a boy came up to the table and collected his pay, a corporal, and he’d been a boy at school with me. This was when I was at the Operational Training Unit and I got a message over the tannoy would Corporal Mitchell report to the Ordinary Officer. Got the fright of his life. Sounded terribly officious and when he saw me he just melted completely. And he was a boy with me at St Erth. His father was a carpenter and the president of the little band in the village and he was in that band.
CB: Now as you finished your operations.
DD: Oh yes.
CB: Then what happened?
DD: I got posted to Operational Training Unit as an instructor at Moreton in the Marsh and I decided then it would be a good time to get married and we lived in a village called Blockley which wasn’t far from the airfield there. It was an interesting little village. The plumber was called Mr Ledbetter.
[laughs]
The butcher was called Balhatchet. The chemist was called [Milton?] and I might think of a few more in a minute but, and the vicar was called Jasper. I was confirmed in Blockley.
CB: And what did you actually do as an instructor? Did you -
DD: Well, I didn’t fly then.
CB: Go up in the Wellingtons much
DD: I was a ground instruction.
CB: Right.
DD: And the young fellows who were going through were just needing, they were glad of my operational experience and one student who came through was a squadron leader who’d been with me in South Africa. He was a regular I think. I can’t think of his name now.
CB: And why would he be there?
DD: Oh to take a tour of operations. He hadn’t done any operations beforehand. He, he’d been a navigational pilot instructor. I can’t think of his name at all.
CB: No. So he was a pilot instructor as a pilot.
DD: Yes.
CB: But why was he getting navigation -
DD: He wanted -
CB: Training from you?
DD: To do a tour.
CB: Right.
DD: A tour was normally thirty one.
CB: Ahum.
DD: I believe Charlie who you met he had to do an extra one and he did it with a crew he had some illness or had flu or something and couldn’t go on operation with us and he said that they were a ropey lot. They were smoking. They were falling out among themselves and they were no, no sense of duty at all. But we were a very agreeable wonderful lot together and it was an experience that I can’t define. Closer than brothers. Our lives depended absolutely on each other and we relied on each other totally. Absolute trust. Absolute frankness.
CB: So what was your feelings at the end of the tour when you were all dispersed?
DD: When I was?
CB: When everybody was dispersed to other places.
DD: Well we wanted to keep in touch. We kept in touch with each other. I went to Dennis’ wedding at one time down at Llanelli and Dennis was a good old singer as I was saying. He had been a rather broad Oxford dialect beforehand. Now he’d become quite a little Welshman.
CB: So how long were you at the OTU as an instructor and what happened at the end of it?
DD: Well I was approached by someone who said, “You are an experienced navigator. Would you like to become a full time navigator?” I took the staff end course at Shawbury which was not far from Shrewsbury and right near there a place was called Church Stretton and the hill Caradoc which is the bungalow name here was overlooking where we were flying from. And the doctor who lived in this house before me came from that home district and he named this house after that hill called Caradoc which is a [?] in Shropshire.
Church Stretton has been rather precious to me because I had an aunt who lived there. She had a Breeches bible and she gave it to me which I’ve now handed to my son. My grandson Adam who will receive all my air force stuff he was married to a girl who came from there so we went back there to his wedding. And so church Stretton has been a little bit meaningful to us.
We had very good instruction there and I flew up to Reykjavik in Iceland. Went up on astro and came back on LRN Long Range Navigation.
CB: When you said you went up on astro that was because you were using the astrodome.
DD: Yes.
CB: And the sextant
DD: It wasn’t very, it wasn’t very accurate.
CB: But using a sextant.
DD: Oh yes.
CB: How often?
DD: A proper sextant.
CB: How often did you use sextants?
DD: Very rarely.
CB: On operation?
DD: I got I knew how to use one but it wasn’t used very often because it did need really precision and Gee and H2S gave us that. We could be much more precise than just map reading and well we were so high sometimes map reading wasn’t so easy and of course sometimes there was no character in what the land was below us.
CB: So how did you feel about using Gee because -
DD: Oh Gee was ideal. Yes the Gee screen gave us the position lines which we plotted and the more the angle between two position lines got nearer to a right angle the more precise it was. If it was shallow and less then say fifteen degrees it was little bit too inaccurate so we attempted to get position lines that would do that. In the book that I’ve got there the big heavy one you can look in that. Maybe you’d like to turn over a different pages in that and talk to me about that.
CB: Yes.
DD: But we, I stayed there after Shawbury, went back to Moreton in the Marsh again and I think I was offered the chance, “Would you like to come back in to the air force. Full air force.” No I didn’t wish to. I wanted to settle down to married life and family life and I did but I did ATC cadet work and that was very rewarding indeed.
CB: So -
DD: One of my cadets is still a local farmer here. He was a farmer’s boy and he was such a good cadet he was given something that in 1950 or so was a great privilege - a free flight to Singapore. I still see him and he still remembers the joy of being able to do that sort of thing. He went back to farming again.
CB: When were you demobbed and where?
DD: In September 1945. And my son David was born in that month as well. I was demobilised, where was it now? Harrogate I think. I’m not really sure. Harrogate I think.
CB: Right. I think in a moment we’ll pause for a break but just talk to me please a little more about H2S because that was sort of a mixed blessing.
DD: Well it was very good. H2S - just a code name for it, gave you on your screen a fluorescent picture of the ground below and towns stood out more so than anything else and if a town had a particular projection you could cotton on to that in order to get a bearing from it. And you’d rotate the screen [phone ringing] in order to – can you answer it please?
Tape mark 5308 the telephone begins to ring and the interview answers it for the interviewee – not transcribed.
Tape mark 5348 TAPE THEN REPEATS UNTIL MARK 1.47.20
CB: Derry we were just talking about the fact you were on 462 and then 466 squadrons
DD: Yes.
CB: At Driffield. Could you just explain how that evolved with the two squadrons?
DD: Well I started off with 466 all together but, and then 462 had been in the western desert and were posted back to England to take special duties. They were going to have a station of their own later on so we were transferred from 466 to 462 for that interim time. When 462 was built up to be a good squadron size then we were posted back to 466 and I can’t remember the name now but 462 went to not Swanton Morley
CB: Foulsham
DD: Faversham was it? That’s it so they were posted to that. They were a complete squadron on their own and you can read about it in the book by Mark Lax and the professor of chemistry. It’s possible that Mark Lax may be coming over to see me in late autumn this year. I’ve invited him. Whether he will or not I don’t know.
CB: So what’s his involvement with the squadron?
DD: He was just interested writing its history.
CB: Right.
DD: What his Australian Air Force career was I don’t know but he was an Air Commodore.
CB: And what age is he?
DD: Oh I should think middle fifties I should think.
CB: Right.
DD: They’re both younger than we are.
CB: So that covers that extremely well thank you very much and what were, oh final point. What were special operations?
DD: They might have been gardening which of course is laying mines in shipping tracks that was called gardening - code name for it. It could have been dropping food to needy people in certain areas that were damaged, overseas that is not in England. Those were their special duties.
CB: Right.
DD: They weren’t torpedo dropping but I did have a friend who was on Swordfishes dropping but that would have been a special duty but that was left to the RNAS which later was embodied in the RAF.
CB: Thank you. I’ll stop it there and pick up later.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Derry Derrington
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Dr Arnold Pearce Derrington grew up in Cornwall and joined the University Air Squadron at Exeter. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 and completed training at RAF Ansty, South Africa, RAF West Freugh and RAF Moreton in the Marsh, where he trained as a navigator on Wellingtons. He was posted to RAF Driffield where he served with 462 and 466 Squadrons. Most of his operations were over the Ruhr. He discusses H2S and Gee in detail. He was later an instructor at RAF Moreton in the Marsh and was demobbed in 1945. He kept a diary of his time in Bomber Command.
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-14
Format
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00:56:20 audio recording
Language
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eng
Identifier
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ADerringtonAP150715-01
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
South Africa
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Warwickshire
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Wigtownshire
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
462 Squadron
466 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
love and romance
memorial
navigator
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Ansty
RAF Driffield
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Shawbury
RAF West Freugh
sanitation
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/19/43/PAutonJ1503.1.jpg
fcd84ad8b587a4e098652670dd63b4c8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/19/43/AAutonJF150608.2.mp3
6ee59b7c7d75a4b3e1001264485de6ae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Auton, Jim
J Auton
Description
An account of the resource
26 items. The collection relates to Sergeant Jim Auton MBE (1924 - 2020). He was badly injured when his 178 Squadron B-24 was hit by anti-aircraft fire during an operation from Italy. The collection contains an oral history interview and ten photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jim Auton and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-30
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Auton, J
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Well Jim, perhaps we could start with your date and place of birth please?
JA: Yes I was born at Henlow, my father was an officer in the RAF and he happened to be stationed at Henlow when I happened to be born.
CB: And what date was that?
JA: That was the 13th of April, 1924
CB: And what do you remember about your childhood?
JA: I remember when he was transferred to Cranwell, I started infant school at Cranwell and we had to walk across the aerodrome to school, and there were about twenty of us and we were told to walk in groups together and if you see an aeroplane coming in, stand still [emphasis] so he can avoid you and we used to see aeroplanes coming in to land on the grass field, they were bi-planes of course and we’d wave to the pilot and if he waved back to us that made our day because pilots were our heroes and we all wanted to be like daddy and join the RAF when we were old enough and next to the school playground there was an aircraft dump, old fuselages, they’d taken the engines out and the instruments but we’d climb into the cockpits and stand there and go ‘dud dud du du’, we were shooting down Germans when we were five years old, we knew the Germans were the enemy, I don’t think our government knew at the time.
CB: So you have happy memories of your childhood in Cranwell?
JA: Yes, and then of course we, he was stationed at Manston and we could go in the workshop and see the fitters working on the planes, they never told us to shove off, and we liked the smell of dope on the aircraft on the canvas and, but when they took an aircraft to the butts to synchronise the guns, they’d jack up the tails to get the plane horizontal and we’d stand around with our fingers in their ears while they were shooting into the pile of sand in the butts, and then when an aircraft broke down we used to rush out across the aerodrome to help the man, help the men push it and for kids it was marvellous, we loved aeroplanes.
CB: So do you think that’s what started your desire to join the air force later on?
JA: Well you see I was brought up on RAF stations, RAF camps and I didn’t know any other life, we were isolated from the outside community, we had free medical treatment, free dental treatment, we were in married quarters most of the time where even the crockery was provided, all the linen and everything, so our whole life was in the air force until we were adults, so naturally we all wanted to be pilots when we grew up, and when the war was announced I thought ‘oh good they’ll need more pilots now’ [slight laugh]
CB: So off you went to volunteer.
JA: Well when I was seventeen I couldn’t wait, I went to join up, and I registered as a pilot but I found later they put me down pilot navigator or rather pilot observer as it was in those days so they could change me any time they wanted, and I started flying training as a pilot and then when they introduced the four engine bombers they didn’t need two pilots, so they would have a pilot and a bomb airman who had done some flying training and he in an emergency would be able to take over from the first pilot so the bomber was a second pilot, but and [slight pause] I started flying in England but the German intruders flying over us, over England were shooting us down in our training planes, so the Government opened the Empire Air Training scheme.
CB: Where did you do your initial training?
JA: At Ansty near Coventry and then after much delay because flying schools were all full and there was a waiting time, I was sent to South Africa as a navigator and I trained there as a navigator, but I wasn’t very keen on being a navigator so I also trained as an air bomber, because I knew air bombers would be allowed to pilot the plane, in an emergency, and even during training the staff pilots would allow me to take out over and fly the Oxfords and Ansons because that’s all I wanted to do really and so I trained as a navigator and a bomb airman.
CB: What about your journey down to South Africa?
JA: That was marvellous, hundreds and hundreds of them on a small Liberty ship. We were told you mustn’t be below decks during daylight, so we had to stay on the top deck in all weathers and there wasn’t room for everybody to sit down, so if somebody stood up you immediately sat in that place and some of the troops perched on the ship’s rails until they broadcast anybody falling over will drown because the ship will not stop to pick anybody up, so we couldn’t sit on the rails so we had to stand up sometimes for ten, nine or ten hours, during the day, we were fed twice a day, seven in the morning and seven in the evening and the food was like an airways meal on a tray and it wasn’t enough to keep us alive and I asked the crew, it was an American Liberty ship and the crew were Filipinos and Negroes and I asked them ‘do you have this terrible food that we have?’ and they said ‘no we’ve got plenty of food’, they said ‘if you come and work in the kitchen for us, we’ll let you have our food’, so I spent couple of weeks washing up dirty dishes until the heat got too bad and I went back on the troop deck again, but during my time in the kitchen I was allowed to sneak some food out for my friends [slight laugh] who didn’t work in the kitchen, that was all unofficial of course.
CB: Was it better food in the kitchen or just more of it?
JA: More of it and better.
CB: So they were keeping you on starving rations basically?
JA: Yes, yes, eventually the doctor said I was suffering from severe physical debility but that was much later, we were on this ship for six weeks and they warned us we were in shark infested waters and the ship wouldn’t stop for anybody falling over board, but it was quite an interesting voyage except the sun was dreadful in the tropics and there was no shade, and the officer in charge of troops thought that we were cadet officers because we wore a white flash in our caps but we weren’t and when we got to Sierra Leone Freetown somebody must have told him we were not potential officers and he said ‘right, you’ll have to do all the duties’, fire picket, fatigues, peeling potatoes and all sort of things like that and guard duty for the rest of the voyage, another three weeks and my name beginning with an A, I was one of the first to be chosen for guard duty and it was a stinking hot day and we were anchored off Freetown to re-fuel and I found a hatchway and a collapsible chair and I sat in that hatchway and dozed off because I’d had no sleep, we couldn’t sleep on the deck as it was too hot and the smell of the engine oil, and I dozed off and suddenly I was awoken when the ship’s officer came round on his inspection with the ships warrant officer and they bellowed at me ‘what are you on? sleeping duty?’ and I said ‘yes, sir’ because I didn’t like to say no to anybody in authority and they said ‘you’re under arrest in five minutes’, ‘oh dear’ I thought ‘I’ll be all on my own in prison’, the brig, the ship’s prison was below the water line, it was nice and cool and I wasn’t on my own, there were eleven other air crew cadets in there with me and the police who looked after us took us round for dinner wearing their caps and then they said ‘you keep your mouths shut and we’ll go round again’ and they took their caps off and we had a second dinner, so being in the brig wasn’t so bad, except we were locked in and we were below the water line and there were submarines about, so we thought if, if a submarine hit we’ll certainly drown like rats in a trap but it didn’t happen of course.
CB: It must have been quite a relief to get to South Africa after all that?
JA: We anchored off in Table Bay about quarter of a mile from land and the dock workers had a big lump of rusty steel plate and they wrote on it in chalk: ‘plenty of food, plenty of women, plenty of booze’ [laughs] and the next day we docked in the harbour and we were told you will be discharged tomorrow, and there was nearly a riot because we’d been cooped up for six weeks and eventually they said ‘Ok, you can go into town but you must be back at midnight so we all went into town, it was paradise, things we hadn’t seen for years like pineapples and peaches and plenty of food and so we goaded a kind of a restaurant run by volunteers for service men and some old ladies served dinner, so we had a three course dinner and when we finished they said ‘would you like anything else’, and we said ‘could we have it again please?’, so we had another three course dinner, then we had half a dozen bananas on the way back to the ship [laughs] and we brought a coconut, it was paradise, but at flying school wasn’t so funny, the day we arrived we were told that five aircraft had crashed and twenty five air crew had been killed, that’s five pilots and two navigators in each plane and two bomber men in each plane, five men in each plane and the reason was the staff pilots had been low flying round a hospital where somebody’s wife was working and all five crashed (these would be Ansons?) they were Ansons and they, we were told report those pilots for low flying in future but we didn’t do that because we liked low flying because stooging about high up isn’t much fun, but low flying is exciting [clears throat].
So after training in South Africa [coughs] for nearly a year we went up by stages through central Africa, Rhodesia, Kenya, Tanganyika, Uganda, the Sudan to Egypt where we found we were going to live in the Heliopolis Palace Hotel, marvellous [emphasis] but when we entered we found there were no beds, no furniture of any description and we had to sleep on the marble floors and our kit had been left behind in South Africa so we only had the clothes we were standing up in, so I wrapped my shoes in a towel to use as a pillow and lay my uniform down on the marble floor and slept on that, I found that I had to sleep on my back otherwise my hip stuck into the marble and it hurt [slight laugh] and then, I was then sent to Palestine where there was a war, the Jews and the Arabs were fighting each other and both sides were fighting the British Palestine police and while I was there they blew up the radio station and they blew up hotels, and people were fighting in the streets and I thought ‘I haven’t got into the war yet but I’m going to get shot by our own police’, and they had said to us, because we each had a revolver, ‘hand in the revolvers in the armoury, so I went down to the armoury which was in the cellar of the hotel and I handed my revolver in, and I saw the men there were mounting twin machine guns on a platform to be carried on a lorry, so it was a war, but then we were then transferred to Lidder, after going back to Egypt and wasting some more time sleeping in the western dessert on the sand, we had to empty our shoes thoroughly because there was scorpions in the dessert and the sand was almost too hot to walk on and the authorities had laid a tarmac path but it never hardens and it was like sticky toffee so we couldn’t walk on that [slight laugh]
CB: And this was part of your flying training or were they just moving you from place to place?
JA: Moving us around, and then we went to Lidder for a conversion course, onto Liberators, about a five week course.
CB: Were you expecting Liberators?
JA: No, when we saw that we were going to fly Liberators, we thought ‘they are American planes, why haven’t we got Lancasters?’, ‘cause we knew about Lancasters we thought they were marvellous, Liberators were unknown and didn’t even know that the RAF had Liberators and we thought they’re gonna send us to Japan because the Americans had Liberators so we were a little bit frightened of that, because we thought we should be helping defend Britain, we thought the war in Japan is an American affair and we shouldn’t be anything to do with that, but after we’d been shuttled around in Egypt to Palestine for a bit we went to Algiers by air, nine hours, and we thought we were on our way to Italy, when we got off the plane we saw a French flag and we said ‘what’s this place?’ and a French airman said ‘it’s Algeria’ or at least he said ‘it’s Maison Blanche’, we said ‘where’s that?’ he said ‘it’s Algeria, it’s North Africa’ and we said we’re supposed to be in Italy but there was nobody to ask, we could ask any questions and he said ‘you can go to a hotel here and sleep in huts in the grounds’, and then you should go to Algiers’s downtown about twenty miles and report to the RTO, transport officer, we went to see him the next day and he said ‘oh bomber crews, you’ll be here for ages, you’re low priority’, he said ‘only fighter pilots are priority one’ and our navigator said to me ‘we are priority one, I’ve read the documents’ but I said ‘shut up, it’s nice here’ so I said to him ‘the French people don’t seem very friendly’ and one of the gunners said ‘no wonder, we’ve just sunk the French fleet in Iran, so [slight laugh] after three weeks we said to the corporal in the RTO’s office, ‘I think you ought to have another look at our documents’ and he stood and talked on the telephone for a few minutes, kept us waiting because we were so insignificant, a low priority, then he looked at the documents and nearly had a fit, he said ‘you’re priority one, you should have left the same day’ he said, ‘you’ll be on a plane this afternoon’, so we fly to Italy in a freight plane with a load of boxes and an aircraft wheel that wasn’t properly strapped down, it kept shuffling around and nearly run us over, we were sitting on the floor and when we got to Italy, no customs, no immigration, nothing at all, nobody to tell us where to go or what to do, so we, first thing a service man does when he goes somewhere new is look for a tea and a bun [laughing] or what’s called a ‘shy and a wad’ and there was a little sort of canteen with Italian girls serving and they were laughing and joking, I expected Italians to be hostile like the French but they were so friendly, I thought we’re gonna like it in Italy and they kept saying ‘capiche, capiche’, and I said ‘no, no cabbage thank you, just tea and a bun’ and they said they were saying ‘do you understand?, capiche’ but we didn’t know that, but we thought they seemed nice [laughs] hope there are going to be some women where we’re going.
CB: Is this around about Naples was it?
JA: It was in Naples, and then we were transferred to Portici to a, to a holding centre, and there were people there who’d done a tour of operations and they were going on a rest period, and they were so dejected, haggard and ill looking, and they wouldn’t talk to anybody and we thought it must be terrible on a squadron, that it was demoralising to see them, anyway we stayed there a few weeks and then we were sent to Foggia by train, and you understood that Foggia is a big aircraft base, there were thousands and thousands of Americans there, with Liberators and Flying Fortresses, B24s and B17s, and we had liberators but other squadrons, some of them had clapped out wellingtons obsolete or obsolesce wellingtons so the liberators were a bit better except they weren’t new machines, they were machines that had been damaged and done a tour in the American Air Force and were now in a sort of scrap yard called a maintenance unit, and the pilots would go and ferry them to our squadron and if we were lucky we’d get the one in reasonable condition but most of them had got terrible faults, some of them had even got twisted airframes, and engine troubles common, and our fitters worked in the open air, there were no hangars, and sometimes they worked through the night in all weathers, and we were reliant on them to keep us alive.
CB: Now your crew, there was the seven of you as in a Lancaster but in this Liberator is that right?
JA: Yes, when I talk about how when I won the war I always say ‘I didn’t do it alone, there was seven of us’, and three of them were Scotsmen, one was from the Shetlands, and it took me a few, few days to learn to understand them on the intercom, because the intercom system is not very clear, it’s like a poor telephone system, and their Scottish accents were very guttural and I knew my life depends on these fellas, so I had to learn [slight laugh] to understand them and the skipper was very pleased when I joined the crew because up till then he was the youngest member, he was twenty-one and I was twenty and of course as I trained as a navigator and as an pupil pilot I was a useful member of the crew, and I’d done a gunnery course so I could do anything if anybody was killed or injured, I could take over from them, I couldn’t land a Liberator of course but I could keep it in the air long enough for the others to jump out and I said, I think I was bombing I think it was Budapest and the flak was so thick I thought we couldn’t get through it without being hit, and I looked over the side and it was like black velvet, the sky was so dark and I thought I’d jump out if I dared but I had no faith in my parachute and as I said to a Polish pilot I knew, he had parachuted safely and I said ‘ I think I’d jump out if I dared, but I’d be scared’ and he said ‘you wouldn’t hesitate if your arse was on fire’ and he was speaking from personal experience.
CB; So, you were with this very close-knit group, you were a good team, a good cohesive team?
JA: Yes, yes, you see when we arrived on the squadron nobody would talk to us because they couldn’t be bothered with new boys and when we became senior crew, we couldn’t be bothered to talk to new crews because on average they were only doing seven trips before they got shot down, and it was bad enough if our friends got shot down, but we didn’t care much about strangers being shot down so we didn’t really want to make any friends, because it would be traumatic when they died.
CB: And what were the conditions like at Foggia?
JA: The conditions were absolutely terrible, we were in a field, there were no gates, no fence, we were in a field with one solitary brick building, and that was the orderly room, the medical offices office and something the commanding officer used, he lived in a caravan, we lived in little four man tents, bivouac tents, you couldn’t stand up in them and we had no beds, we had to make our own beds out of bits of packing cases, and I had the side of a packing case with a strut across the middle, in the middle of my back, most uncomfortable, covered in cardboard, the mid-upper gunner, had a sheet of corrugated iron, I said ‘that’s why, that’s why he walks so funny’ [laugh]
CB: But you’d have the heat, you’d have the rain, it must have been terrible.
JA: It was, we’d have the side of the tents rolled up and the end flaps were open because the heat was so intense and we’d get a couple of hours sleep at night, but we couldn’t sleep more than a couple of hours so we’d get up and walk around, and when the sun came up it was unbearable and there was no shade anywhere, there was a place that we called the dining room and it was a roof on six poles with no sides and we sat on forms at trestle tables, and the cook, had an outside kitchen arrangement made out of oil drums, and the first thing I noticed was his black arms and white hands, he was twenty-one, he never wanted to be a cook, we called him Gladys because he was a nice boy.
CB: And was the food any better?
JA: The food was terrible, you see sometimes the food didn’t arrive, the food was brought to us by a lorry from somewhere distant each day, only enough for one day and after everybody had had a bit of it on the way there wasn’t much left for us, and there was hardly enough to keep us alive and sometimes the food didn’t arrive at all and we’d have nothing to eat for twenty-four hours and one day we said to Gladys our cook ‘ God for Christ’s sake Gladys, find something, there must be something left over’ and he scratched around and he found an onion, a raw onion each and a mug of tea, and that’s what we had and we had to do a nine hour flight, on an empty stomach and of course I smoked twenty cigarettes on every trip because it took away the hunger pangs, and then the medical officer discovered that the cook was using some sort of cans of meat and vegetable stew that had blown, and most of us got severe enteritis and people couldn’t control their bowels and there were no toilet facilities in the air, so people were doing it in their trousers, and sitting there on it for the rest of the trip, and some of the crews were yellow with jaundice, we didn’t know if it’s contagious or what caused it but we were living in what they called a malarias area, there were boards around the perimeter of the field we lived in, saying ‘caution, malarias area, malarias area, area’ and everyday a bowser arrived, a tanker of water but we couldn’t drink the water, it tasted of chlorine it was terribly strong, so we could only use it for washing ourselves and trying to wash clothes but we had no washing powder, we’d save little scraps of soap and put a shirt in a tub and leave it for three weeks to soak [slight laugh] and then rub it, and then rinse it and lie it in the sun, and in the hot sun it was dry in about an hour and we had nothing to eat except a mug of tea twice a day, and when we came back from operations we went to the debriefing tent, and there was a billy can full of lukewarm tea there and half a dozen mugs, they were never washed they were just recycled, we dipped them in the lukewarm tea, but if we were gone for more than five hours on a trip, we were given five boiled sweets which we promptly ate on the ground before we took off, and we were given a gallon of tea between seven of us, in a thermos jug, but that got cold, we’d saved it for the return trip and Jock the wireless operator used to bring the tea round for us cold, cold as ice, and about once a month we got what we called a tuppenny bar of chocolate but it was tropical chocolate and it never melted and in the air, I would put a piece of chocolate in my mouth and chew it and it became like gravel and then it became like dust and then I swallowed it but it never did melt, and one day some, some things arrived at the cook house, we thought they were bails of straw but they were dehydrated cabbage and that’s the worst thing you can have when you’re flying because our stomachs swelled up and we had to loosen our belts and our flying clothes because our stomachs were expanded enormously and we farted furiously throughout the trip.
CB: Did you have proper flying clothes in all this?
JA: We had flying clothing, we just recycled, the only ordinary clothing we had were ones left behind by casualties and of course lots of it was very old and our kit bags were still somewhere in Egypt or South Africa, following on about three months later and when I was in South Africa, I brought thirty oranges for a shilling, no for three pence, you couldn’t buy less because they were in a net, thirty for a ticky it was called, a threepnee bit [sic], and my kit bag wasn’t quite full so I put thirty oranges in there thinking the kit bag would come with me but it followed on three months later and the oranges were well ripe by that time [laughs] they were putrid, and we were allowed to wear civilian clothes in South Africa, provided we wore our service cap, we could buy bush shirts and nice clothing in the gents’ outfitters, so if we took our caps off we looked like civilians, and that was good quality stuff and when that eventually arrived in Italy we were very pleased because we’d been dressed like scarecrows up until then with all sorts, I had a brown battle dress, it wasn’t khaki it was brown, a sort of teddy bear material, I don’t know what air force or army that was from, maybe Greek or something, and it was a bit big for me so I could wear two battle dress blouses, two pairs of trousers, two shirts, two vests and three pullovers, because sometimes it was twenty below in the air and then I’d wear my flying suit, going to the toilet to urinate was a bit difficult because I had so many clothes on, I couldn’t stretch my penis long enough in the cold air to have a pee in the pee tube, which was on the side of the fuselage with a tube leading out of the aircraft but usually they were blocked up with cigarette ends [laughs]. The Americans had had ashtrays in their Liberators, they smoked in the air, smoked cigars in fact but the RAF took the ash trays out so of course we smoked in the air, nobody knew and I would smoke twenty cigarettes during a trip and now and again I’d feel like another cigarette but I’d already got one alight and then I’d think, ‘what did I do with the last cigarette end, did I stamp on it? did I drop it?’ and I’d switch a torch on which had a bit of brown paper over the glass, inside the glass because that was regulation and try and find the cigarette end on the floor somewhere and, once we took a fitter with us to another airfield and he nearly had a fit when he saw me light a cigarette because you are not allowed to smoke within so many yards of an aircraft but it was alright, it was, smoking was less of a hazard than the flak, we were carrying a ten thousand pounds of bombs and thousands of gallons of fuel, petrol and oil and pyrotechnics, photo flashes, incendiary bombs so –
CB: A cigarette was the least of your problems –
JA: A cigarette was minor.
CB: What did you make of the Liberator as a plane?
JA: Well when I flew it, because I could fly it when the automatic pilot backed and the skipper said to me ‘you can take over if you like’, it was like, it was like steering the Queen Mary, if you wanted to change course you had a wheel instead of a joystick and you’d turn the wheel and wait and nothing happens for a few seconds and then suddenly it moves, and if you don’t turn the wheel back quick enough its gone too far, so it’s too sluggish and, of course my instrument flying, I only took over at night, my instrument flying wasn’t good enough, most of my instrument flying was in the link trainer under the hood, and instrument flying was tedious and I could only stand about half an hour at a time, then I was glad when the skipper came back and took over, we were all sergeants, we liked that, because it was awkward sometimes when there was officers in the crew, in one crew the tail gunner was an officer well that seemed silly because a sergeant in that crew was a skipper and he was in charge in the air but he had to salute the tail gunner on the ground, well he should have done if they hadn’t abandoned saluting, but there was so many American officers because all of their bomb aimers or bombardiers were commissioned and the navigators and the pilots, so they always, when they talked to me they always addressed me as lieutenant because they thought I must be an officer being a bomb aimer, bombardier, and I would say ‘no we’re not one, we’re sergeants’, but you see we didn’t wear rank badges because we hadn’t got any, when we qualified at flying school, they didn’t give us any sergeant strips and when we got to the squadron nobody was wearing any rank and the commanding officer said ‘you should wear rank badges’, we said ‘we haven’t got any’ he said ‘chalk them on’, chalk them on, well that seemed so silly we didn’t bother, we said ‘we can get some from the Americans’ he said ‘you’re not allowed to wear those’, so we didn’t wear anything.
CB: Did you get on well with the Americans?
JA: Yes, oh yeah they were lovely fellows, we went to a, about twenty miles away to Foggia, was a ruined town, it had been bombed by the Germans, the Italians, the British and the Americans so there wasn’t much left of it, but there was a bath house where they had shower baths, and when we had a day off we’d hitch a ride on a lorry, lorries were conveying chalk from the quarries and we’d hitch a ride on the back of a lorry carrying limestone, and then we’d get very dusty on there, the drivers were all American Negroes and they’d say ‘where you going, down town Foggia?’ and we’d say ‘yes’, ‘get aboard’, so we’d climb up on the limestone and go to the bathhouse which was a small with half a dozen cubicles which were meant for one or two people but there were always four or six people pushing in trying to get wet, under the water, and we’d be sitting there waiting to go in with our towels and our soap, all naked, and soon as someone came out we’d push our way in and try and get some water, and after the war I was invited by the Hungarian government to go, go to a meeting in Budapest, they’d invited all available flyers of every air force that was active over Hungary during the war, well Hungary was allied with Germany and I’d bombed Hungary but the Hungarian air force was very kind to us, they took us flying, you know in their aeroplanes and there were five Americans standing there, there were only two of us they could find from England, but I said to one of the Americans ‘do you remember the shower baths in Foggia?’ he said ‘yeah I must have seen you there’ but he said ‘I didn’t recognise you there with your clothes on’[laughing].
CB: So let’s turn to your missions, your operations, what were you involved in while you were there on your long range bomber?
JA: Well we could put most eighty aircraft in the air, RAF, Liberators and Wellingtons but the Americans could put up six hundred, or nearly a thousand, they flew during the day, we flew to the same time at night and of course we had the same opposition say for sixty planes as they had when they flew six hundred so our casualties were much higher than Americans but I liked the Americans, we got on well with them, they had a camp in a field not far from us and we went to visit them once, to compare their facilities with ours and they had tents with wooden floors and wooden walls and they had stoves, we had nothing like that, we didn’t have running water, they did, they had electric light, we didn’t, they had decent food, we didn’t, they had flak jackets to protect them when they were flying, we didn’t, they had an ice cream plant for making ice cream and when the weather was very hot, they used to take the ice cream up to about fifteen thousand feet to freeze it and they had a cinema on their site, we didn’t, so we felt really rather ashamed of our conditions compared with theirs ‘cause they didn’t know how bad ours were –
CB: I’m surprised there wasn’t mutiny but I suppose –
JA: Well we had some desertions, we didn’t, we felt mutinous but we didn’t actually mutiny, and our attitude was we want to get this bloody war over and beat the Germans, and get home, but after forty operations we should have six months instructing or some other job and then come back and do another forty so not many people getting through the first forty and by the time we’d done twenty we knew we wouldn’t survive, we were the most senior crew on the squadron, we lost the flight commander and all the senior people off the squadron and when people much more experienced than us were failing to come back, we thought ‘we haven’t got much chance’, and so we reconciled ourselves to the fact that we will die but everybody’s got to die sooner or later and we thought ‘we are gonna die now instead of when we are ninety-nine’ so that cheered us up the fact that everybody has got to go sooner or later anyway but what did worry us, is the thought that we’d be severely wounded and blinded and badly burned, that sort of thing and having to live with that from the age of twenty for the rest of our lives, we didn’t like that, we had been stationed in Torquey as raw recruits, and there was a hospital there for burned air crews, air crews that had had their faces burned off and they were disgusting to look at, and horrifying, and we didn’t want that to happen to us, it was very demoralising and it was happening to other men, it never happened to us, you know, we couldn’t understand how we keep getting away with it, the plane was hit, engines were knocked out, we were landing on one wheel and two engines and all sorts of things like that, but none of us were hit yet and we went on to, the skipper had done one air experience trip, before we started operating, so he was one ahead of us he’d flown with another crew for experience, we didn’t like that ‘cause we thought ‘if he gets bumped off we’ll have a strange pilot’, and anyway we went on, watching other people dropping like flies until our, until my, my thirty-seventh trip, and I was bombing German troops in Serbia, they were evacuating from Greece and the Greek islands, back through Yugoslavia, back to the home land, to defend Germany, and we were stopping them, and no matter how much we bombed them they never really took to it and they hit me, filled me full of shrapnel.
CB: Before we get to that Jim, your first operation I believe were against oil plants in Bucharest, is that right?
JA: The first one was an oil refinery in Fiume, that was an Italian port which is now Rijeka which Fiume and Rijeka mean river, and it’s now Yugoslav, Croatia now, and I know that oil refinery well, and I know a woman who used to go to school across the bay when I was bombing that oil refinery and I thought what a terrible thing it was she lived nearby and when I went past on the bus sometimes after the war and I thought I could’ve killed her and I would’ve hated to kill her she was such a nice person and, after the war I knew a lot of Germans, the German airmen, pilots, ‘cause I speak fluent German and they always thought I was German, they used to say ‘but your father’s German?’, and ‘no, no he’s English’, well your mother is German ‘no no’, ‘well where did you learn English?’, I was the head of the German department of import export firm for years and I had to learn German at school anyway, and I had a private tutors for languages after the war and, I even spoke Italian during the war, fifteen years after the war I opened an office in Milan, and I put a man there who was a Venetian, rather posh Italian, superior you know, and I said ‘hey Franco, have you changed the language?’ and he said ‘why?’ I said ‘well during the war we used to speak differently’ and he said ‘no we haven’t changed anything’ well he said ‘after Mussolini, we didn’t call people voy we said lay’ and I said ‘no it’s not that’ I said, I only speak these days when I’m on my monthly trip to Italy, to supervise the office, I only speak to bus conductors and waiters and people like that but they speak differently to the way I spoke, so I started talking to him in Italian and he said ‘for God’s sake don’t talk to the directors of Fiat, what you speak is Neapolitan dialect’, well I didn’t know that and I thought well if it was good enough for the girls in Sorrento, it’ll have to be good enough for the rest of the Italians, he said ‘you speak like those little black fellas down in the south’, ‘cause you know there was snobbishness between the north and the south but I liked the southern Italians, they were all nice jolly people you know, I’ve even got some distant relatives that are Italian, my, my grandmother’s sister married an Italian during the first war when the Italians were on our side, and they settled in England and had a multitude of children and I knew them all.
CB: So the operations, some of which were in Ploiesti in Romania, and they had a fearful reputation.
JA: It was the most heavily defended target in the world.
CB: You were bombing these oil plants, especially the one at Ploiesti at night obviously?
JA: Yes, yes it had tremendous defences you know, because it was the oil that was vital, what really finished the war was lack of petrol, they got, they’d run out of fuel for the tanks and the aircraft so all the war we should have only really been concentrating on oil refineries, oil fields.
CB: So the operation in October to do gardening or mine laying as it was properly known, mine laying in the Danube of which you reported was the most frightening episode that you’d ever been.
JA: Well the first time that we dropped mines in the Danube, we’d been told they are secret and you must make sure you drop them in the main stream, the Germans must not get the secret of the mines, they lie dormant for three weeks and they don’t go off until the second ship passes over them, so they are virtually un-sweep able, the Germans used to fly over them with special aircraft with a big magnetic ring on it to try and explode them, they’d gun barges adrift to go over them and nothing, they couldn’t sweep them and, within a few months we’d stopped a hundred percent shipping on the Danube, which was conveying oil from Ploiesti back to the German forces, so it was a very important thing and the fighter defences were enormous, we’d seen planes shot down every few minutes and that was a bit frightening, I used to think ‘I hope there’s not somebody I know in it’, because a plane would fly along beside us for seconds, it seemed like ages, on fire, and slowly descend in a curve and explode on the ground, and we were told, ‘don’t be distracted by crashes’ but you can’t stop looking at them, wondering ‘whose that?’ and thinking ‘why don’t they get out, don’t see any parachutes’, what we didn’t know was that the Germans had upward firing guns, and they’d creep underneath the plane in the dark and fire into the belly of the plane and nobody would see them, so the gunners didn’t open fire and wondered ‘why didn’t the gunners open fire on that?’, nobody told us about it, this was the secret.
CB: No, they were doing this to Liberators? They were certainly doing it to Lancasters weren’t they, they were doing this to Liberators as well?
JA: Yeah and you see we had no ball turret underneath, the RAF took out that bull turret, we hadn’t got a gunner for it anyway and then we had a gun turret in the nose but they took all the guts out of that, to decrease the weight, so we had no guns in the front turret, we had no gun underneath that could’ve seen these upward firing guns and we didn’t carry a lot of ammunition, mining the Danube we would use all our ammunition, immediately I’d drop the bombs, I would rush back to the beam position where I’d got two machine guns, one on either side, there was no gunner for those so in the event of an attack I would use those or when we were mining the Danube, I’d drop the mines, rush back there and use those guns to strafe the shipping on the water or any insulations on the banks, the banks were two hundred feet high, and the Germans used to stretch cables from bank to bank so we had to fly below two hundred feet so we normally went to a hundred feet in the dark above the water, and then we thought we’d be safe, except there was flak barges with barrow balloons and we couldn’t see the cables from those because the barrage ruins were too high up above us and you can’t see a cable in the dark, we were going too fast anyway and, I remember one time there was a man on a barge firing at me with an automatic rifle and I gave him a quick skirt, squirt from the machine gun as I went by, I would’ve like to have met him after the war if you lived to discuss that, you know I didn’t mean it really you know, I’d say ‘I’ve got nothing against you personally’.
CB: But if you’re going to fire at me, I’m firing at you, what was your bomb load on something like this?
JA: Ten thousand pounds, you see we couldn’t carry a big bomb like the Lancaster because we’d got the cat walk going down the centre of the plane, so the bombs had to be hung in rows one above the other on either side of the cat walk, so the biggest bomb we could carry was a thousand pounds, so we carried ten of those, ten thousand pounds, which is plenty anyway and we’d carry pyrotechnics, lots of incendiaries as well.
CB: And what was your job if there was a hang up, and the bomb hadn’t been released?
JA: I had to go along the cat walk, in the dark, with no parachute, and no oxygen, and holding onto the railings in the roof and skidding about on the ten inch wide cat walk, with the, the slipstream would take away my weight so I had a job to keep on my feet and when I got to the bomb which was usually the one right to the back, I would stand on the cat walk with one leg and kick it and it would never fall off, so I had to swing then holding onto the hydraulic pipes, which were not meant to be swung from they are only about an inch diameter, I’d hold them with two hands, my wrists would go like jelly, you know, I’d swing and kick with both feet and when the bomb eventually fell off it was like my stomach went off with it, ‘cause there was always lights twinkling on the ground and thousands of feet below, and one slip and I’m off to the ground you know, seconds to live, that was terrifying. The only other terrifying thing was throwing grenades when I went on an infantry tactics course during training and, swinging propellers, on tiger moths, on a wet windy and muddy day, I thought I’ll swing in to the propeller and get my head cut off, but when I was in South Africa a chap did walk into a propeller, a navigator, and it threw his head over the hangar, so propellers were a danger, you couldn’t see them rotating, they were invisible.
CB: So now you were also involved in what was known as the Warsaw uprising or the support of that, that’s right isn’t it Jim?
JA: Yes but to go back to the mining of the Danube, the first time we mined the Danube, I said to the skipper ‘we’re too low, we’re much too low’ and he said ‘we’re at a hundred feet’ and I thought ‘we’re bloody not’, I could tell by the droplets of water we’re not at a hundred feet, when we got back to base the compass was, the radio compass was checked and we’d been at thirty feet in the dark, if we’d touched the water we’d have been gone, so that, it was terrifying yet there was no, there was no pay off, if you dropped the bombs you’d see the explosions and things, you’ve done something but you dropped mines that are not going to go off for three weeks or more then there’s no, the stress is there, there’s no release from the stress except machine gunning like mad, and then of course on the way back you would get attacked by fighters so then I was stay by the beam guns or as the Americans call them the waist guns, and that was quite exciting really firing those, but the reflector sides illuminated, were too bright, they were meant to be used during the day and I couldn’t see through them at night so I switched them off and I fired watching where the trace goes ‘cause every fifth bullet it was a tracer, so I fired a gun like squirting a hose, and they’d burn out about I don’t know whether it was six hundred yards but up to that time I could see where they were going, firing like watering the garden it was, with a hose pipe [laughing] anyway you were asking me about?
CB: Supporting the Warsaw uprising, dropping the supplies?
JA: Yeah, I’d bombed a place in Hungary, we were pretty tired, it was the second of two nights we’d been in the air, and we eventually got back in the tent to go to bed and within three hours a runner, a runner arrived from the orderly room and he said ‘you’ve got to report for briefing’, we’ve only been in the tent for three hours and we were told you’re going on a secret operation, fly down to Brindisi, we didn’t know what it was all about, and in Brindisi we went into a hut and there was a big map on the end wall and it showed a tape going from Brindisi to Warsaw, we thought well it’s nothing to do with us, the Poles are on our side we’re not going to bomb Warsaw, but then we were briefed and told we’re not going to bomb, we’re going to drop supplies of explosives and ammunition and guns for the underground resistance fighters who were fighting in the city against the Germans and, they were expecting the Russians to arrive any minute so on the 1st of August they’d started to fight, and they were doing well for a few days, and the Russians stopped their advance so the Poles were on their own so they appealed for help, apparently Winston Churchill was in Italy checking the arrangements for the south of France invasion which was imminent and he said, ‘we must help the Poles, we went to join the war on their account, we can’t stand idly by’, our air officer commander told us this later and, so he said we should go with the special duty squadrons, there was an Polish squadron and an RAF squadron dropping supplies but they’d lost so many men so they couldn’t continue so three liberator bomber squadrons were called in to do the supply dropping, they said ‘you must, you must drop from below six hundred feet and the poles said ‘two hundred, otherwise the parachute containers will drift away’ and they said ‘we’ve been there, it’s safer at a hundred feet because then the Germans can’t bring the guns to there because at a hundred feet you’ve come and gone quickly’, but they said ‘there’s one building still standing and that’s sixty meters high, so don’t fly into that in the middle of the night’, when we got to Warsaw, the whole city was on fire, gun fire and everything was burning and we’d been told a particular street and squares where we were to drop the supplies but nothing was recognisable so I remembered them saying, Zoliborz, a district of Warsaw is still in the hands of the insurgents, well that was a few days ago and I thought there doesn’t seem to be any fires, or no fighting going on as far as I could see, we fly around for fifty minutes and planes were getting shot down all around us and I’d eventually counting the bridges, I knew where Zoliborz was, I dropped the supplies there and I said to the wireless operator, ‘we must be bloody mad you know flying around fifty minutes’ and he said ‘well we’re not going all that way to drop them in the wrong bloody place’, I thought we’re all crazy, the psychiatrist reported that we were crazy, in their official reports, which I read after the war, ‘they must be crazy and they all think it won’t happen to them’, it’s insulting, we knew it was going to happen to us sooner or later, why shouldn’t it happen to us, it did happen to me in the end, fortunately it wasn’t quite fatal [laughing] .
CB: Glad to hear it, so that was your philosophy really to imagine that you had been killed already basically?
JA: Well we knew that we would die eventually anyway, so it’s like people ask you ‘when did you have your holidays?’, when you’ve had it, doesn’t matter if it was June or September, its gone, so doesn’t matter when you die really, if you’ve got to die anyway what’s the date matter, we had to tell ourselves that sort of thing, but we had superstitions, we had lots of superstitions, my friend Deakey (?) the navigator, he had a lucky shirt and he couldn’t fly without his lucky shirt and if it was dirty he had to wash and dry it quickly ready for flying that night, we only fly once without his lucky shirt and we got lost, and that was on the way back from Warsaw, we went twice to Warsaw and each night we lost thirty percent and by the third night we’d lost ninety percent, ninety, the air force pretended it was seventeen percent but everybody knows it was ninety percent and there are plenty of documents saying it was ninety percent and our air officer commanding Sir John Slessor wrote a book in which he [said] the time of the Warsaw uprising was the worst time of his career and he mentioned it was ninety percent but after the war, Stalin had to be appeased so we didn’t want to tell, didn’t want to emphasize anything we did that he didn’t agree with, ‘cause Stalin was anti-Poles and he’d stopped his army to allow the Germans to polish off Warsaw, and Hitler said eradicate Warsaw, it was to be razed to the ground and he gave an order ‘all inhabitants to be killed’ and the new German commander who wrote a book after the war, he said ‘you don’t mean women and children?’ and he was told ‘yes’ [emphasis], the whole population is to be killed, that’s what was going on when we were flying over there, and we were told ‘if you get shot down near the Russian lines, they will shoot you, especially if you are dressed in blue’, well of course we were dressed in blue we were in the Air Force, so it was a bit late to tell us that now and, while we were flying to Warsaw we were being shot at by the Russians and the Germans because they didn’t agree with us helping the Poles, the Poles got a medal, the Germans got a special badge, the Russians got a medal, I’ve got one of them as a souvenir, and we got nothing, we got no recognition.
CB: Andy your pilot comes over as very calm.
JA: Yes, he was very determined, he was very stubborn and of course he was the skipper, he was in charge but I always felt that I was in charge you see and when we were lost on the way back from Warsaw, Deakey the navigator called me up and said ‘Jimmy can I have a word with you’, well I thought there’s something wrong and I just asked him a little while ago, ‘do you want a pinpoint?’ ‘cause I would navigate by map reading all the way there and back you see, but I hadn’t bothered because he, I said ‘do you want a pinpoint?’ and he said ‘no, no I’m alright’ now he says ‘can I have a word with you?’, so I scrambled up the front to the nose compartment and the tears were dripping off his chin and he said ‘I don’t know what country we’re over’, I said ‘give me the typographical maps, I’m shit hot at map reading, I could tell you in a few seconds where you are’ and I said ‘we’ve got no maps for this place whatever it is’, when we should be over the sea, we’re over land and when we should be over land we were over the sea of course we were over the Greek islands, they’re all messy you know, the little bits and we’ve got no map for that place and I didn’t know until after the way why we hadn’t got a map, the reason was he’d got diarrhoea and he’d used the map because there wasn’t any toilet in plane, and he wrapped it up and chucked it out down the flare shoot, that’s where the map was the Germans had got it, bit messy, and the plane had been on fire, the wireless operator had the wireless set in pieces and he was in his element putting it together, you know mending it, he was busy and I, went up the front to have a chat to the skipper with Andy, and I said to the flight engineer, he pushed past me to look at the fuel gauges, they were like a gauge on an oil tank, like a domestic oil tank, visual gauge with a bubble in tubes, I said ‘how we’re doing?’ he said ‘empty’, I said ‘we can’t be empty we’re still flying’ he said ‘yeah but I don’t know how long for’, we’re flying over aerodromes with German planes with black crosses on, they’re freight planes but we daren’t try and land there otherwise the you know the ground defences open up on us, so I said to Andy ‘we’re heading to the mountains’ and I said to him ‘land on this road’ I said ‘these strong, straight roads’ I said ‘we’re just flying over one now, look you can land here, that’s what I would do if I were you’ and he said ‘I think we’ll press on’, I thought ‘you’re mad, press on, [emphasis] we’re flying into the mountains and we’re out of fuel, and in any minute all the engines are going to cut out’, anyway he was right and we did press on and we got eventually over the sea and the radio operator had got the wireless together again and he always used to stand up and point when he was listening on the radio and he started waving his arms about and pointing and he said its Brindisi and we were facing the runway, we running up to Brindisi and we went straight in, if there had been anybody in the way we couldn’t have done round the circuit because when we got to the end of the runway the, all engines cut out, out of fuel, so we told the duty pilot where we were and that we were out of fuel, so they put some fuel in and flew back to Amendola near Foggia, of course we’d been gone so long we couldn’t still be in the air, our trip was eleven hours and forty minutes plus over an hour going to Brindisi over an hour coming back so we were so tired, I’d already dropped off to sleep for the last half an hour and when the plane landed I was still asleep and the ground crew got in and stirred me with a foot to wake me up, I was just dead tired, I’d been in the air longer than I’d been on the ground for about three days and no sleep at all you know (tired, hungry?) yeah but we were always hungry.
CB: And then you’d have to have the debriefing?
JA: Yes, that didn’t take long because we were always a bit impatient at debriefing, we’d answer questions, we didn’t volunteer any information and always something had gone wrong with the plane, like the guns didn’t fire, the oxygen cylinders were empty, all sorts of things, one engine cut out, two engines cut out and the ground crew would run out to us soon as we landed and they’d shout ‘any snags, any snags?’ and we’d swear and shout and say ‘this went wrong and that went wrong’ using lots of ‘f’ words but then we’d never report the snags, because we relied on those lads and it wasn’t their fault, the planes were clapped out anyway and they’d work through the night perhaps maintenance and they couldn’t get spares and some of the things they did were, were fatal, and they couldn’t help it, one of them said to me, ‘I don’t get very close to the air crews, I don’t make friends with them because’ he said ‘if a plane goes missing I’d wonder if I did something wrong or whether I’d forgot to do something’ and he said ‘I’ve been on a squadron a long time and lots of planes have gone missing and I always feel it might be my fault’ so he said ‘I don’t like to get friendly with air crews’, I can understand that, when I used to go to the, we weren’t allowed to take anything with us like a bus ticket or money or anything like that, and so I had a little wallet and I used to hand it to the sergeant fitter, ground crew fitter and I’d say ‘take that Jake and if I don’t come back you can keep it’, and he’d take it but he didn’t like touching it really and when I got back he’d shove it at me as soon as he could ‘cause he didn’t want anything to do with dead men’s property and I can understand that you know, he was squeamish and when I got wounded he was the chap who lifted me up and carried me out of the plane.
CB: So what happened on that your final operation obviously, what was it the thirty-seventh out of forty?
JA: Yes
CB: And what happened Jim?
JA: When we were told the target would be undefended, and for the first time ever you can bomb anywhere in the town, it’s just full of Germans, so I dropped a stick of bombs at predetermined intervals, and I hit about two or three blocks of flats right in the middle, the next one between two blocks of flats, the next one a road and rail junction, and then I said to the skipper, ‘hold this course for half a minute because we’re going into mountains now’, and we were low you see because the visibility you had to come down very low, ‘cause of the cloud, and just as I said that the tail gunner said ‘it’s flak, it’s stern’ and WOOF [emphasis to express being hit], and it’s a sensation like if you’re playing football and the football is wet and heavy and somebody kicks it and it hits you straight in the face, it’s a numb sensation at first and then comes the pain, well this was like a puff of wind, like being hit with something but no pain what so ever and then floods of blood, I seemed to be bleeding to death, and I felt for my parachute pack because I thought we were getting shot down but I was the only one hit actually, we were hit in one engine and me and the navigator wrote in his diary; ‘Jim’s eyeball is hanging out on his cheek’ [laughs] actually it wasn’t, I’d got a lump of Perspex because all the Perspex had become shrapnel, and there was a piece about four inches long stuck in my eyeball and of course all the blood was running down my face because I was hit in the head and the face and everywhere and the blood running down this Perspex made it look as though my eye was hanging out you see so he couldn’t look at me, so he tapped me on the head and I could see he was talking, we had throat microphones, American throat microphones, it were very efficient and he was telling the crew I’d been hit, I crawled under the flight deck and when I stood up in the well, the back of the flight deck, the wireless operator had got all the first aid kits open and he wanted to put one on my face but he was hesitant to do it and I thought ‘do it, do it’, but of course there was this four inch long piece of shrapnel stuck in my eye, and it wasn’t until it fell out that he could put bandages on and then he bandaged everything that was bloody including my right arm which was badly damaged and my left arm which I’d used to investigate my other wounds and that wasn’t damaged but it was very bloody so he bandaged that as well, he bandaged everything and then he said ‘I’ll give you a shot of morphine’, I said ‘I’m not in pain’, I had no pain what so ever and that frightened me because I thought, if you get your legs chopped off you don’t feel any pain, because the body reacts as though you get shock but you don’t feel pain and I thought I’m dying, I must be dying and I said ‘I’m not in any pain I don’t need morphine’ and he got some out the first aid thing and I’d got my eyes shut and he stuck the thing in my arm and the morphine came like a marble, raised up, it didn’t disperse and when we landed he said to the ground crew ‘I’ve tied a label on him saying I gave him morphine at twelve o’clock, but I know now that I shouldn’t do that because he’s got a head wound’ and ‘oh Christ he’s killed me instead of the Germans’ [laughing].
But anyway, all we did all the time was sing and tell jokes, and it was like a rugby club –
CB: In the military hospital?
JA: No on the squadron, we weren’t morose and we weren’t miserable, in fact everything was hilarious and because we had to keep flying it didn’t matter what we did, hooliganism didn’t matter, drunkenness, it didn’t matter, because we were either up in the air or we had a group stand down when we’d have two of three days off due to so many casualties, waiting for new crews and new aeroplanes, and we’d get drunk and forget everything you see, and if, if unexpectedly we had to fly after a night a free night in the mess and drunkenness, we’d have a headache like you’ve never experienced and I went to the medical officers little cubby hole and there was a youth leaning up the doorpost and I pushed past him and I was opening boxes and things looking for an aspirin and I said to this fella, ‘do you know where they keep the aspirins?’ and he said ‘yeah’ and he told me and I said ‘you know your way around?’ and he said ‘yeah I’m the medical officer’ [laughs]
CB: So you found yourself in this hospital?
JA: Yeah when, after we landed, I was put on a stretcher, propped up in a sitting position on some blankets, some blankets behind me and it seemed to take ages and the flight engineer said ‘what’s the bloody delay? Get him to hospital’ and they said ‘we’re checking the first aid kits’ which all had been opened and used and they said ‘there’s a pair of scissors missing’ and that’s why they were delaying and he said ‘if you don’t get him to hospital right away I’m gonna bloody do the lot of ya’, and he was a tough Shetlander and that made them pull their socks up, and they put me in the ambulance to go seven miles, no twenty miles into Foggia to the general hospital, military hospital, and the skipper said ‘I’ll come with you’, well he shouldn’t have, he should’ve gone back to be debriefed but I was glad he came with me, ‘cause I didn’t know what I looked like, I didn’t know if my ear had been chopped off or whether I’d got a complete nose ‘cause I knew a piece of shrapnel had creased the top of my nose and the bottom, I didn’t know how bad things were and he said I can show you and he and he got a little stainless steel or chrome mirror in his pocket and he showed me but that’s very distorting and I thought ‘bloody hell look at that’, and I heard the nurses talking and they were talking as though I was already dead and one of them said ‘he must have been a good looking boy’, he must have been? [emphasis] I’m still here, you know, and they stripped me, cut all me clothes off and I felt a bit embarrassed because I’d borrowed a pair of long johns from the tail gunner and I was stripped down to my long johns and I felt that was a bit embarrassing because long johns were a bit silly aren’t they, and then the skipper went back then but he had to hitch hike back and he was in his flying kit you know, and when he got back he got a bollock-ing ‘cause he should have gone straight back not gone to the hospital with me, and anyway he got over that and they decided as he’d done one more trip than me anyway and they couldn’t manage without me and they hadn’t got anyone to replace me, the crew could stop now and go for a rest period, and after a few days they did go, and so there I was in hospital four and a half hours, and a chap from the squadron had sprained his wrist or something and he called at the hospital, to see the medical officer at the hospital and he said, the medical officer said ‘we’ve got a chap from your squadron in here’ and he said ‘oh I’d like to go and see him’ and he said ‘no you better not he’s just recovering from four and a half hours on the operating table so you won’t be able to talk to him yet’, and I came round and it was evening but I couldn’t see and I was bound up like an invisible man, just all bandages and I could see a white apparition by the bed and I thought ‘I’m alive’, surprisingly and I muttered, [clears throat] ‘could you tell me if they’ve taken my ear off?’ and this thing said ‘what are you here for?’, and I said ‘I’ve been wounded’, and she said ‘well you’re have to wait until the day staff comes on, I don’t know anything about you’ so I had to wait the rest of the night to find out whether I’d got a nose and whether I had only got one ear and that worried my because in the day of short haircuts I thought I’d look a fool with only one ear [slight laugh] isn’t that silly and, of course I was blind in one eye and the, every hour they dropped penicillin in my eye, it was icy cold, they said ‘you’re lucky, you’re being treated with this new penicillin, new’, I’d never even heard of it and I said ‘can you warm it up, it’s cold’ they said ‘we keep it in the refrigerator’ [slight laugh], anyway, after a few days I was totally blind because my left, my left eye had been alright, well reasonable but then I was totally blind in both eyes and I heard them muttering about cross infection in the ward and I had to lie flat on my back for a month, thirty days I wasn’t allowed to sit up or move due to the eye treatment, they said ‘we’ve healed eyes before but usually they get an infection in the end and we have to remove them’ and I thought well if I can’t see with it it doesn’t matter, I might look alright with an eye patch, a talking point and they transferred me to another ward, they lifted me up flat, put me on a stretcher, wheeled me away, and all the others in the ward had thought I’d died and I said well nobody talked to me anyway, they said, ‘well when your eyes were bound up we didn’t know whether you were awake or asleep’, well I didn’t know what time it was or what date it was or anything and I used to doze off and come back to consciousness again all the time and I never knew whether it was morning or afternoon or evening and I used to listen to what was going on, are these night time sounds or day time sounds, very difficult to tell. Anyway I then after a while when I’d recovered a bit I had more operations on my eye under local anaesthetic, terribly painful, they picked out bits of steel, bits of Perspex and a piece of wood and the chap said to me, ‘what wood was there in the air craft?’ I said ‘well it was made of aluminium’ he said ‘well you’ve got a piece of wood in your eye, a tiny piece’, then I remembered, there was an air blower near the bomb airmen’s position and it would blow in my face so I used to put map over it and stand the astro compass box up against it and it was made of wood and of course that had been shattered and a piece of wood obviously went in my eye, and when they cut my clothes off in the hospital I’d got three pullovers on, lots of clothes you know, multiples of everything and two of the pullovers were air force issue but one I’d brought at Marks and Spencer’s before I joined up and I thought ‘steady on that’s my pullover they cut in half’ you know and that watch that got took off I brought that you know, got no compensation, but anyway it was terrible in the hospital because nobody had any time for me, I don’t know whether they were opposed to the bomber offensive or what it was.
CB: So what nationality were they, the nursing staff?
JA: British, in that hospital they were British, in a second hospital they had Italian nurses that was a bit better but the British nurses were quite cruel really and, except for one, she used to be on night duty and she’d come and sit on the bed and talk to me at night and bring me a cup of tea, I think she fancied me [laughing] and anyway when I could stand up, because I felt very dizzy, it was very difficult to stand up after being about six weeks in bed and I’d only got blood stained clothes on, ‘cause one battle dress was though the rats had eaten it, it just fell open, as I’d got more than one battle dress on, one of them weren’t too bad and, but it was all blood stained and my flying boots were all caped with blood and I felt stupid you know I wanted to have proper clothes, and I felt very truculent and resentful, and the nurse came round and she said ‘lie to attention’ [emphasis] and I said ‘what does that mean?’, she said ‘both arms above the sheets down by your sides, feet together, head straight’, [coughs] I said ‘I can’t do it’, can we wait a minute [pauses] and then got it up gradually from twenty to eighty percent.
CB: So you’re still in the hospital, how long were you in the hospital?
JA: Three months and I was transferred then to a place called Torre del Greco to another hospital, and we’d got Italian nurses there, very pretty, black hair and uniforms, white dresses with a red cross on their chest and their English was a bit faulty and they’d come round every day and ask me ‘lavatory?’ [puts on an accent] and I’d say ‘what’s that?’, ‘lavatory?’ [in accent again], that’s all they could say and I’d say ‘I don’t understand’, and then they’d write something down and go away and I was there for a month and then I was discharged and told you’re on twenty four hour stand by to go back to England wounded, never happened, after a few weeks, they put red crosses on my kit bags and loaded them on board a ship, I had a two week visit, sorry a two week voyage back to England through the, past Gibraltar, through the Bay of Biscay, submarine alert all the time, no beds no chairs and I sat on a form leaning on a table for two weeks.
CB: Still of course not a hundred percent?
JA: No I was ill, very ill and every now and then submarine alert and I’d got to scramble up on deck in a life vest and over coat and have to stand there in the drizzle and rain until the submarine alert was over, and I wasn’t treated as an invalid at all, I was just with the other troops, nobody had a bed, nobody had a chair, if some of them if they were lucky they could climb on the table and sleep on the table but I couldn’t get on the table so I had to sit on the form and lean forward on the table all night, and we put into Liverpool and we spent twenty four hours in the docks while the customs went thoroughly through the ship examining everything, I thought some people have been abroad for several years, what the hell are they looking for? and we’re all British anyway, and then I got off the boat and I had to carry two kit bags with the red crosses on, all to the station put them on the train unaided, I thought ‘what they hell are the red crosses for?’, and I reported to the Air Ministry with me two kit bags and they said ‘you’ve been sent back because they haven’t got the right facilities for treating you in Italy’, so I expected to go back into hospital again but they gave me five weeks leave, didn’t give me any money, they didn’t ask me where will you go on your five weeks leave but they said ‘every week report here again’, well my, fortunately my father was at an Air Ministry unit at Harrow and my parents lived in Hillingdon on the outskirts of London, so I could live with them, the morning after I arrived there, in my funny garb of odds and sods and I hadn’t got a proper uniform, I heard the first time of Doodlebug what we called pilotless planes (B1) I had heard about them, didn’t realise they were so noisy, I knew when the motor cut out they’d come down and one came over and the motor stopped and I said to my mother ‘what do you do?’ she said ‘don’t do anything’ and she went outside to peg some washing on the line and it just dropped at Greenford, which was not very far away from [pauses] not very far away from where we were living and then the rockets came and they were terrifying, the V2s, the rockets, because you’d hear terrible explosion and then hear them coming and in the newspapers and on the radio it was saying ‘gas mains exploding all over London’, well that was a lie, my father knew what they were and he was told ‘don’t evacuate your family as it will cause panic’ so he had to stay there, couldn’t tell his family the danger, it was quite silly during the war because when the Germans bombed a town we weren’t allowed to know which town it was, on the radio it would say ‘bombs were dropped at random’ and we thought ‘Random must be totally destroyed by now because its bombed every night’ [laughs], anyway my father said ‘haven’t you got a proper uniform’, I’d got this brown battle dress which I wore with a blue shirt and a black tie and a hat that had collapsed with a badge I had brought in a bazaar in Egypt which wasn’t a regulation badge, an air force badge it was sort of a souvenir thing bought in a bazaar ‘cause someone had stolen my badge and, he sized me up and brought me a tunic anyway but I was wearing a flying badge and strips on this brown thing and I was hoping people would ask me ‘what the hell are you?’ but nobody ever asked and I was passing military policemen, they should have said ‘excuse me, what air force are you in?’, nobody ever asked because there was so many foreigners in London of different armies and air forces that everybody looked different, anyway I realised I wasn’t, on my weekly visits to the Air Ministry, I wasn’t seen by what I would call proper doctors, I was seeing men in white coats, now psychiatry was in this infantry or psycho analysis and we were prime subjects for it because we were all bloody crackers, you see, so they asked me all sorts of questions, not about my injuries, no medical treatment but things like ‘do you like girls? What sort of girls do you like? Do you dream? What do you dream about?’ so I made things up, course the chap was writing things all down in long hand, ‘what sort of girls do you like?’ I said ‘girls with red hair’, well I had only known one girl with red hair, I nearly said to him girls who do or girls who say yes [laughing] but ‘what do you dream about’ so I made it up a dream and told him and it would amuse me to see him scribbling it all down, no medical treatment what so ever then I got a telegram, report to Innsworth, and I said to my father who’d worked his way up you see from being a corporal in the first world war to being a squadron leader, acting wing commander and he knew all the ropes, I said to him ‘god I could do with a few more days leave’ and he said ‘well send them a telegram’, I said what will I say?’ he said ‘wedding’, so I thought telegram style is quite ambiguous you see, and instead of saying ‘I request extension of leave for my wedding’ I just said ‘for wedding’, so it could be anybody’s wedding, they said forty eight hours granted and report to Manby in Lincolnshire, well I still hadn’t got proper uniform and everything, just one tunic my father had given me, this funny cap and other odd things you know, and I had to buy everything I needed to make it up, you should have three of everything, three pairs of trousers, three tunics etc. I had to buy it from the stores and a 664B which it the payment on clothing on repayment form, I can remember even the name of the form, form 664B, and I had it stopped out of my pay, so I was looking for a job, nobody knew what I was there for, there were people on a course, officers training courses and I said, they said ‘are you an instructor’ I said ‘I don’t know, can I look at your books?’ they showed me the books and I said ‘no I don’t know any of this stuff, it’s all up to date, you know I don’t know it so I can’t be an instructor’, ‘are you a pupil?’ I said ‘no I’m off flying so I can’t be a pupil’, I got pally with the armourist officer and I said ‘I’m sick of just hanging about, three weeks and nothing to do and have you got anything I can do?’ and he said ‘well we need someone to take charge of the low level bombing range but it’s night work’, I said ‘well I’ve got nothing to do during the day or during the night so I might as well be working at night, sleeping in the day’, so he gave me a squad of blokes and WAAFs and I was in charge of bombing range so after another three or four weeks he said ‘guess what, your documents have come through and you are attached to my section anyway, what would you like to do?’, I said ‘well what is there?’, he gave me two or three options and said ‘there’s a detachment on the coast with three bombing ranges, have a ride out there on the ration lorry, see if you like it, you can take charge of one of the ranges’, so I thought well anything to get away from the real air force, get away on a detachment.
CB: Your eyes were alright now were they?
JA: No, no I still couldn’t see out of my right eye, but they said, they introduced peace time regulations and things you see after the war had ended, and they said annual musketry, everybody must attend so I went to the rifle range and I fired off so many rounds and I didn’t get any bullets on the target at all, so they said ‘something must be wrong there, will you do it again?’, well I couldn’t see the target never mind hit it, and I was trying to use my left eye with the rifle on the right side you see and that’s impossible, anyway I was in charge of the bombing range for a year or two and I was sent for by the commanding officer, he was an air commodore and he said ‘air crews are allowed to take trade training’, and I said ‘well I don’t need any because I’ll be demobbed in about six months, demobilised, don’t need any trade training’, I said ‘what is there anyway?’, he said you’re only allowed to take group one or group two trades and I said ‘what are the group one’s and group two’s?’ he said ‘there aren’t any’, I said ‘well what is there then?’ he said ‘well if don’t volunteer for one of these I’ll damn well send you on one’ he said ‘there’s plenty of openings for cooks’, I said ‘oh I’d like to be a cook’, I thought you’re in the warm and you can get plenty to eat if you’re in the cook house, I said ‘I’d like to train as a cook’ and he was furious, he said ‘that’s a group five trade, you’re not allowed to take a low trade’ well I thought well it’d be nice you know in the winter in the cook house [laughing] so he said ‘I’m sending you on a photographic course’, so all the other people, I was in charge of the course of twenty five men because I was a senior man, and the others were people who had joined up to fly but before they could start training the war had finished so they got to go onto ground jobs, and the ones on the course were amateur photographers and they knew everything, well all I knew was you point a camera and press the thing and you send it off to Boots, and when it comes back it’s prints and how they do it I don’t care, but now I had to learn all about it, take photographs of things moving and you know all sorts, people walking, cycling, aeroplanes taking off and all that, I learned quite a bit actually and then I was transferred to Benson, near Oxford and I was put in charge of the photographic section, well I was the most naive photographer in the world because I wasn’t even interested, but I was put in charge and they were doing an air survey of the United Kingdom and Scandinavia, and doing hundreds of feet of film and it was all going through machines and it was all automatic, well I’d never seen such machinery and the photographic officer was always sliding off somewhere and he’d put me in charge and disappear and when he came back he’d say ‘hundreds of yards of film have been ruined’ and ‘how did that happen?’ and he said ‘you didn’t make them clean the film’ well I didn’t know they had to clean the film [slight laugh], so it wasn’t too bad because there was a lot of women there, WAAFs, they were quite jolly and I used to open the section at nine o’clock in the morning and they’d say ‘right we’re go off to breakfast now’ and we’d go down by the river, the Thames and have bacon and eggs and stroll back when we felt like it, and I hadn’t got the faintest idea, some of the people knew what they were doing and some didn’t you see, I didn’t know at all [laughs], so eventually I was demobilised from there and it took place at Uxbridge and I was given a chalk striped suit, like Max Miller I felt, and a hat, I’d never worn a trilby hat and we looked in mirrors in our civilian clothes and laughed like hell because we’d never worn anything like that before and when we come out the demobilisation centre there were chaps hanging around offering you two quid for the box of clothing, I offered them the hat, they didn’t want that, they wanted coats and trousers, ‘cause clothing was rationed you see, and the thing I would have really like to keep was an over coat because they had good overcoats in the air force and I hadn’t worn an overcoat you see, so I went to a market and they were selling second hand clothes which weren’t rationed and I brought a sailor’s overcoat [laughs].
CB: Did you keep in touch with your crew after the war?
JA: Up until the time they died, yes, except the one from the Shetlands who emigrated to New Zealand so we lost touch with him, but the rest of us stayed in touch until they all died, one at a time, not all together but they got heart attacks and cancer and things and I think that was through the stress they had during the war.
CB: You became a very successful international businessman after the war.
JA: I did, yes, I devoted all my time to educating myself, I attended a technical school, it was a commercial and technical school, they had commercial boys who did short hand typing and book keeping and technical boys, I was one, we did metal work and wood work and higher mathematics’ and science, advance subjects you know, we didn’t do the nice subjects like art anymore and scripture and things you know, easy subjects, we didn’t do that.
CB: There is one point I wanted to ask you, you were awarded the DFM, the Distinguished Flying Medal –
JA: Yes.
CB: Did you accept it?
JA: No I didn’t, I got a message, chaps used to come into town, my old friends who’d trained with me and were still on the squadron and they’d come in they said, one of them said, ‘see you got a gong then?’ and I said ‘I don’t know anything about it’, he said it was on DROs, daily routine orders, I did know about it because an officer appeared one day in the hospital and he sat on the bed next to me and I couldn’t see him, I couldn’t recognise him properly, because my eyes were badly affected and he said, in a very pompous way he said, ‘I have honour to inform you, that you have been awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal’ and it was as though I could hear a radio on in the background, it didn’t sound like me at all, and I heard myself saying ‘tell them to stick it up their arse, I don’t want a bloody medal, I want some clothes, I want a shirt and a tunic, and some trousers, I want some shoes’, because they hadn’t provided me with anything and another thing that upset me was a bitch had had puppies on the squadron, in the tent lines, and I’d got one of these puppies and that was the only thing I’d got in the world, I’d got the rest of the crew but I didn’t own them and the only thing I owned was this little Italian dog, he was a kind of Labrador and I used to save a bit on my plate from dinner or breakfast and bring it back for him, put it on the ground and he’d lick the plate clean, and the next morning I’d go to breakfast, forget to wash the plate and I’d remember later ‘oh god I forgot to wash the plate’, because it was always so clean, you see he’d licked it clean, and the lads came to the hospital and they said ‘the CO’s had all the dogs shot’, ‘what, why’d he do that, shot all the dogs?’, ‘cause they were good for morale those dogs and I used to look forward to my little dog you know when I came back from my trips, it might be the last day of my life, and he shot it, and that’s why I didn’t take the DFM, why I told them to stick it up their arse, now years after the war when I moved to Lincolnshire from London, where I live now, I was in Lincoln when I met somebody who turned out to be a flight commander from the squadron, and he was not the same flight I was in, we had A flight and B flight, he was the other flight and he said, I didn’t know him on the squadron ‘cause he came after I’d you know done most of my trips, he was the new boy, and he said ‘do you know the CO is still alive, he lives in Norfolk’ I said ‘no, I didn’t know that’ he said ‘I’ll give you his details, his telephone number and address’, so I phoned him and I said ‘I’d like to come and check a few things with you ‘cause I’m writing a manuscript for a book and the sort of things I’ve heard, I heard that you were a group captain dropped down to wing commander because you wanted what the Americans called some combat time, we thought you must be bloody potty,’ because he was non-compassionate at that time you see, I said ‘there’s certain things I’d like to check with you whether it’s true or not’, I went to see him, I said you never talked to us on the squadron because we were sergeants, he said ‘well I couldn’t because you were so much more experienced than me’ he said ‘I kept a low profile’ and I said ‘well you won’t remember me but I’ll tell you something now and it’ll remind you who I am’ and I told him about the DFM and where it should be stuck and he was flabbergasted, I had come back from dead you know to haunt him and he’d got a couple of dogs there you know, young two dogs, and how would he feel now if I shot his dogs –
CB: Did you mention that to him?
JA: I didn’t no, I just told him I was so embittered and outraged that I didn’t want the bloody medal but of course it was a mistake, looking at the Antiques Roadshow one day, I saw a few ordinary medals being auctioned and a DFM, and the DFM made about six thousand pounds or something put together with the other medals and I said to my wife what a fool I was I should’ve taken it, but it was involuntary you know when I said it, it was as though I wasn’t speaking, I was listening to somebody saying it, and I was in a bad way of course, I’d got no short term memory, for many months, I didn’t dare tell anybody because I wanted to get back on to flying you see, I thought you can fly with one eye, I’m not interested in anything else only flying, they wouldn’t have it, and [pauses] I was eventually, I was on this photographic course and coming out of a darkroom into the sunlight I couldn’t see I was blinded, my eyes are streaming, so I was sent to an army doctor in Aldershot, and he said to me ‘you’re up to British army standards’ and I said ‘maybe I am because you’re calling up people with one eye now’, they were towards the end of the war they called up people to serve with one eye. And I went back to my unit, one day I was called for by the medical officer and he said ‘you should have had a medical board last year’, I said ‘I did have one’ and he said ‘why do you say that? Nothing in your records about it’, I said ‘I went to Watchfield and I had a railway warrant for myself and a party of airmen and I was in charge, ‘and what do alleged happened?’, I said ‘well the medical officer who gave me a board he said ‘what’s your condition?’ and I said ‘about the same’ and he said ‘right we’ll leave it at that then, same’ and he said ‘I can’t understand you saying that’, and I said, he was flicking over pages in a file, I said, the pages are numbered, I said to him ‘there’s one page missing’ he said ‘it’s nothing to do with you’, I said ‘well it’s my records it’s something to do with me, that’s the page that gives you know, details of my last medical board’, he said ‘I’m a squadron leader, I’m competent to conduct medical boards, you are A1’, and I thought I can’t be A1, what’s their game, I thought, well they don’t want to pay me a pension for not being A1, so nothing I can do about it, I left the Air Force and I signed on with a panel doctor just before the National Health Service came into being, and he said I’ll just check you over while you’re here and he said ‘good God man you’re in a terrible state, what the hell has happened to you?’ I said ‘I was wounded when I was flying in the Air Force’, he said ‘well you should get a pension’ and I said ‘I can’t get a pension, I’m A1’ [laughs] he said ‘the bastards’ he said, ‘they shouldn’t be allowed to get away with it’, he said ‘I’ll get some British Legion forms and fill them in for you, you sign it and send them off’, so that happened, I took a day off, I thought this is a waste of time and they said ‘yes you are due for compensation’, gave me nine shillings a week, nine shillings, I didn’t need nine shillings anyway within two years I was an armour men’s designer working for the Ministry of Defence and from there I progressed upwards until I was managing director or chairman of three companies at the same time and I was making an awful lot of money.
CB: How do you look back at your time in the RAF? is it with –
JA: With disgust, you see when I was a child, daddy was in the Air Force, all his friends were in the Air Force, they were my heroes, we were, Douglas Bader was stationed on there and he used to come to my father’s house and I saw Lord Trenchard, he was going by in his car on the aerodrome and people who became very famous later and I admired them, they were all my heroes, Amy Johnson and Jim Mollison, all those people you know, civilian pilots, I didn’t know any other life so naturally I joined the Royal Air Force and when we were living at Cranwell, that time 1929 and then again just before the war, the Royal Air Force was known as the world’s finest flying club, it wasn’t very big, only about thirty thousand men in the RAF, they would join with no rank and they’d go out in seven years with no rank, there was no promotion, you see there’s no expansion until late 1930’s and everybody seemed to know everybody, my father knew every commanding officer throughout the world, and he was well known, when I was in the RAF people remembered him you know and they’d look at my name and they’d say ‘have you got any relations in the service?’, and my brother was in the RAF and he said ‘I always say no, ‘cause we don’t want to let the old man down’, ‘cause he was a bit of a scallywag, and anyway, I used to forget to draw my pension of nine shillings a week, forty five pence nowadays and it would go on for about three months and I had to write away for it, and I let things slide ‘cause I was making an awful lot of money, I was eating in the best restaurants in the West End and hotels all over the world, staying in the best hotels.
CB: What do you think you would’ve done if you hadn’t gone in the RAF?
JA: God knows
CB; Do you think you would have just brought your success as a businessman you just have brought that forward as it were and you would’ve started it straight away?
JA: I don’t know.
CB: Or did you need your time in the RAF to form and develop?
JA: I think the RAF made me very aggressive and when I went for a job after ready for coming out of the RAF, I was in uniform and I had an interview with the personnel manager of an engineering firm and he said ‘what were you doing in the Air Force?’ no ‘what were you doing in the war?’, well I was dressed in uniform, I’d got a flying badge and medal ribbons, I thought it was pretty obvious what I was doing, I said ‘I was flying in the Royal Air Force’ ‘oh’ he said ‘not much use to us is it?’, I was very aggressive at that time, the war had made me a bit loopy, and I felt like I wanted to knock his head off but I thought just a minute he’s right, I’ve learnt how to fly an aeroplane, how to drop bombs, how to blow people up, how to shoot people, I’ve learnt nothing that’s of any use to a civilian employer, he’s right I’ve completely wasted my time, if I been a cook or a lorry driver I would have something to contribute, but that made me determined to overtake all the people who hadn’t served in the war so I started at the bottom in a factory, and I went to evening classes and I had private tutors, I spent all my money on tuition, I got language teachers, I leaned Latin, I learned Russian, and I perfected my German and within two years I was head of the German department in import export firm with only Germans working for me, because I was an engineer and a German speaking Englishman, so I’d got an advantage there, and the cold war had started, and I thought either there’s going to be a war with Russia or eventually the Soviet empire is so big there will be a demand for things –
CB: that’s where you did most of your trade –
JA: So I learnt Russian so I could negotiate contracts in Moscow in Russian –
CB: Tenacious, determined.
JA: Well I was determined to do better than everybody, I went for an interview ,when I first came out of the Air Force, because I understand the government were giving grants to ex-service men, and I went for an interview and they said ‘what were you doing before you joined the Royal Air Force?’ and I said ‘well I was in school until just before’, they said ‘were you not studying for a profession?’, I said ‘I was only seventeen when I joined the air force, I was studying higher mathematics and subjects that would get me through the selection board to be a pilot’, I said ‘the town was being bombed and I thought by joining the Air Force I could help to stop that’, they looked at me, they were thinking you simpleton, they said ‘we only give grants to professional people’, so few weeks later I made another application and the attitude to me was humiliating or intended to be humiliating, so I got, I was fed up with being humiliated so I told the interviewee off, I really told him off, in words, you’ve never heard before and the second man who was sitting with him, when I left, rushed out with me and jumped in the lift and he said ‘thank you for doing that’, he said ‘that was wonderful the way you told him off, I’ve had to sit there for weeks listening to his rudeness’ he said ‘you really fixed him’. When I got a job as an armours designer, because I’d been in the Air Force and been shot, not because I knew anything about designing [slight pause], all the other people in the department had gone straight from school, into the ministry and they’d all got a free education and got a higher national certificate which is what I wanted to do you see, so I thought they’ve never been in the service and they’re the same age as me and they’re well ahead of me, got their qualifications, I’ll beat them, I’ve got to be better than them, so that’s what drove me on, I was inferior and I became superior ‘cause I had to, I had to do it, I spent all my money on studying, spent all my time on studying.
CB: Well that’s been a fantastic story Jim, thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jim Auton
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Jim Auton grew up on Royal Air Force stations and joined the Royal Air Force at seventeen. He trained as a pilot navigator and bomber at RAF Ansty near Coventry, then in South Africa under the Empire Air Training Scheme. He trained on B-24s at Lidder and after travelling up through Africa was stationed at Foggia in Italy, where he started his operations. He describes the tough conditions there, as well as the operations in which he participated, such as targeting an oil refinery in Fiume, now known as Rijeka in Croatia and Ploiesti in Romania. He took part in mining operations in the Danube as well as secret operations to drop supplies in Warsaw to support the uprising. Whilst on his thirty-seventh operation, he was injured and describes his time in hospital, the journey home and his ground jobs in the Royal Air Force after the war. He also relates why he turned down a Distinguished Flying Medal, and recounts his post-war career as a businessman.
Creator
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Clare Bennett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-08
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Emma Bonson
Heather Hughes
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eng
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AAutonJF150608
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02:13:37 audio recording
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Great Britain
England--Warwickshire
Croatia--Rijeka
Danube River
Egypt
Italy--Foggia
Poland--Warsaw
Italy
Poland
Romania--Ploiești
Croatia
Romania
Danube River
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
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Sound
Temporal Coverage
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1944
animal
B-24
bombing
coping mechanism
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Medal
fear
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
RAF Ansty
RAF Benson
sanitation
superstition
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Warsaw airlift (4 August - 28 September 1944)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1010/BBriggsDWBriggDWv1.1.pdf
4ed57d765e8a8fd48923aeec0ce8532a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Briggs, Donald
Donald W Briggs
D W Briggs
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
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2017-03-27
Identifier
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Briggs, DW
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with flight engineer Donald Ward Briggs (1924 - 2018), his logbook, memoirs and 16 wartime and post war photographs. He completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying from RAF Upwood. Post war, Donald Briggs retrained as a pilot flying Meteors and Canberras. He eventually joined the V-Force on Valiants and was the co-pilot for the third British hydrogen bomb test at Malden Island in 1957.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Donald Briggs and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Don Briggs A brief description of Wartime service
How it all began
1939 saw a rapid build up of the armed forces. The Royal Air Force were recruiting ground servicing personnel in large numbers. I was a 15 year old schoolboy and saw my chance to learn Aircraft engineering so applied to take the Aircraft Apprentice entrance examination. I passed OK and two days after World War 2 was declared I was on my way to RAF Halton No. 1 School of Technical Training. There is little doubt that the harsh discipline coupled with excellent theoretical lessons in Schools (known as Kermode Hall after the well known aerodynamicist) and many hours filing pieces of metal in workshops, turned boys into men. Later in the course we worked in teams stripping down and reassembling many types of aero engines. At the end of training (which was reduced in length due to the demand for Engine fitters) I passed out as a Fitter 2E.
My first posting was to RAF Finningley where I worked on the engines of Wellington and Hampden bombers. The Rolls Royce Vulture engines in the Avro Manchester were giving trouble which meant I assisted with several engine changes.
My next posting was to RAF Upper Heyford where I was promoted to Corporal at the age of 18. There I worked on The Wellington MK3 with more powerful Hercules engines. After carrying out rectification on an aircraft if an air test was necessary I usually asked if I could accompany the pilot.
After approximately two and a half years I decided that more excitement was needed so I volunteered for Aircrew. The President of the selection board said I had passed all the aptitude
[page break]
tests for pilot training. However there was little demand for pilots at that time (Mid 1943) and in view of the fact that I was already a Non Commissioned Officer aero engine fitter all I needed was the three months Flight Engineer’s course and I could be operational in less than six months. So I became a flight engineer by passing the course at RAF St. Athan.
During the crewing up procedure I was fortunate in meeting the captain of the crew that I was to fly with. He was Flying Officer Bill Neal with his crew and they had already completed a tour of operations on Wellingtons. Bill explained that they had been selected to join the Pathfinder Force and what our duties would entail. Our first step was to convert onto the Halifax Mk1 at RAF Lindhome[sic]. During our training sorties Bill Neal gave me a “potted” flying lesson and I handled the controls of an aircraft for the first time! We completed the course of 30 hours then went on to convert onto the Lancaster at RAF Hemswell. I did the night convertion [sic] on my 20th birthday. After attending a short course to learn the Pathfinder procedures we joined No. 156 Squadron at RAF Upwood near Peterborough.
As a new crew we had about two weeks of training to complete during which time I took on the additional role of bomb aimer and dropped practice bombs at a nearby bombing range. Also during this time Bill Neal vacated his seat (there were no dual control Lancasters on the squadron) and allowed me to fly this superb aircraft.
On completion of this training we were declared Operational and 11th June 1944 saw our crew on the Battle Order. The target was the vast marshalling yards at Tours in the South of France. The Germans were routing most of their reinforcements through here to the Normandy battle front.
[page break]
What were my feelings about starting operational flying? Well firstly I volunteered for aircrew and I was fully committed now – there was no turning back. Destiny would decide whether or not I survived. Secondly I was fortunate in joining a very experienced crew and they all made me a welcome addition to the crew. They had not flown with a flight engineer previously. I should explain that in Pathfinder crews the reason the flight engineer took on the extra duty of visual bomb aimer was that the primary bomb aimer operated the H2S radar. No. 156 Squadron were primarily a Blind Marker Squadron which meant that if no target indicator flares were seen cascading the radar operator would release Red T1’s. The Master Bomber would then know that the markers were dropped blind and the target had not been visually identified. On this first operation we were about to fly, we were part of The Illuminating Force and carried twelve hooded parachute flares. The master bomber or his deputy would then be able to identify the aiming point visually. Our first ten operations would be mostly dropping flares. On this first operation to Tours I received my baptism alright as we had two night fighter attacks just before the target which Bill Neal corkscrewed to shake them off. Also the Marshalling yards were well defended by heavy predicted flak and searchlights. So it was a great feeling to be safely back on the ground at our Upwood base.
Our crew flew several sorties in support of allied ground forces on the battle front where we dropped sticks of 14 X 1000lb from only 400ft! Needless to say the aircraft shook with the blast. We also attacked V1 launch sites in the Pas de Calais area. They were well camourflaged [sic] so the technique was that six Lancasters formated[sic] on a Mosquito Bomber equipped with “OBOE” a very accurate blind bombing system. When his bomb doors opened the Lancs also did so, followed by bomb release by all the Lancs when we saw the bomb leave the Mosquito. Thus we achieved a bombing
[page break]
pattern which should have rendered the buzz bomb site unusable. This must have saved many lives in and around London! My first German target was Hamburg (13th OP!) which was heavily defended but we came through the barrage unscathed. Night fighters were in the area and although we saw several bombers going down in flames we were left alone. A sickening sight knowing our comrades would meet their end in a fireball from bombs and fuel. We made a note of the position and got on with our own job.
I gradually became used to flying on operations but there was always that nagging thought that the worst might happen and I may not be climbing down the ladder again. Most of our operations from August 1944 were German – we were even sent to Rhur targets in daylight! Several oil refineries were on our list of targets – the German war machine became more ineffective during the final months of the war mainly due to fuel shortage. Our longest flight in the Lancaster was to Stettin (8hrs 30 mins.) and we landed back at base with barely enough fuel for a diversion!
After completing 40 operations (end of my first tour) I became Pilot Officer Don Briggs and was able to join the rest of my crew in the officers mess. I was given a couple of weeks end of tour leave then pressed on with Skipper Bill Neal for a second tour who had now flown two tours and was awarded the DFC. We flew deep into the heart of Germany attacking oil targets at Stettin, Leipzig, Mersburg, Chemnitz and Dessau. In March 1945 we attacked Nurnburg for the second time and were lucky to survive three night fighter attacks. Our rear gunner had amazing night vision and saw the enemy first thus enabling Bill Neal to take evasive action successfully. We were told at debriefing after a safe return to base that the Germans were using jets at night for the first time.
[page break]
During a daylight operation to Kleve in October 1944 we had a flak burst on the port wingtip which damaged the aileron quite badly. Our skipper with his amazing piloting skill brought us back to a safe landing back at Upwood!
I pressed on into my second tour with Bill Neal apart from one operation with another crew, as their flight engineer had completed his tours of operations.
I’m happy to say that despite several very close shaves I came through 62 operations unscathed. Lady luck was certainly on my side!! Bill Neal pressed on with another flight engineer and notched up just short of a hundred ops! He was awarded the DSO, DFC, and the French awarded him the Croix de Guerre. I am eternally gratefull [sic] to Bill for getting me through the most dangerous period of my life. He made sure that my operational record was recognized resulting in the award of the DFC in July 1945.
A few statistics
French Targets 24
German Targets 38
Night Operations 41
Daylight Operations 21
41 operations in “our own” Lancaster GT – J (NE 120)
Oil refineries 3
V1 Sites 5
Battle Front 5
Marshalling Yards 4
[page break]
Rhur Targets 10 (4 in daylight)
My last 30 operations were all German targets
It was a massive relief to have survived and great to be able to enjoy end of second tour leave with my parents and four brothers.
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Title
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Don Briggs, a brief description of wartime service
Description
An account of the resource
Describes wartime service from 1939 to 1945. Joined as Halton apprentice in September 1939. Posted as fitter engine to RAF Wittering working on Wellington Hampden and Manchester aircraft. Followed by tour at RAF Upper Heyford working on Wellington where he often accompanied pilots on air test. Volunteered for aircrew in 1943 and trained as flight engineer at RAF St Athan. Crewed with then Flying Office Bill Neal and his crew who had completed their first tour. Joined 156 Squadron Pathfinders and declared operational on 11 June 1944 flying operations to support Normandy invasion forces. Describes pathfinder blind marking operations and mentions engagement by two night fighters. Describes operations against V-1 bomb sites formatting on oboe equipped Mosquito. Explains that most operation after August 1944 were day and night operations to Germany. Completed 40 operations and volunteered to go onto a further tour with his crew. Awarded Distinguished Flying Cross and commissioned. Completed 62 operations. Memoir ends with a statistical breakdown of operations.
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Donald Briggs
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Six typewritten pages
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eng
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Text. Memoir
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BBriggsDWBriggDWv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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1939
1943
1944
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
France
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
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Sue Smith
David Bloomfield
156 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Hampden
Lancaster
Manchester
Master Bomber
military service conditions
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oboe
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Finningley
RAF Halton
RAF Hemswell
RAF St Athan
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Wittering
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1011/BBriggsDWNealeWv1.1.pdf
517c696d7b7ef0bf110c35395391be88
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Title
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Briggs, Donald
Donald W Briggs
D W Briggs
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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2017-03-27
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Briggs, DW
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with flight engineer Donald Ward Briggs (1924 - 2018), his logbook, memoirs and 16 wartime and post war photographs. He completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying from RAF Upwood. Post war, Donald Briggs retrained as a pilot flying Meteors and Canberras. He eventually joined the V-Force on Valiants and was the co-pilot for the third British hydrogen bomb test at Malden Island in 1957.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Donald Briggs and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed document
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[underlined]Tribute to a Pathfinder Captain [/underlined]
Squadron Leader William G. Neale DSO DFC Croix de Guerre
1912-2001
It was April 1944, and I had just completed the Flight Engineer training course at R.A.F. St Athan S. Wales. Shortly after arriving at R.A.F. Lindholme near Doncaster to commence training on the Halifax bomber, about twenty or so of us new Flt Engineers attended a “crewing up parade”. The crews were lined up in sixes awaiting the additional member to make a full crew of seven. The pilot in each crew broke away and approached our group. I was asked for by name and stepped forward to meet Flying Officer Bill Neal. He know from my training records that I had some limited flying experience through accompanying pilots on air tests following engine changes etc. Bill explained that his crew had all completed one tour of ops and they had been selected to go to a Pathfinder Squadron directly after four engine bomber conversion. He explained what it all meant and what the duties of a Pathfinder crew would be. Bill asked me if I would like to join his crew and I accepted without hesitation. And so it was that fate decided that I should sit alongside this outstanding pilot for the next twelve months!! All the crew were commissioned officers but Bill promised that he would do his utmost [?] to get me commissioned after completing a tour of ops. That evening I received my “initiation” into the crew at one of the local “watering holes”!! I was not allowed to buy any beer!!
As our training on Halifaxes proceeded I quickly realized my extremely good fortune in becoming part of this very experienced bomber crew. In fact on our first night navigation exercise, an engine suffered a burst coolant header tank, quickly overheated and had to be to[sic] shut down and the propeller feathered. Bill calmly and skilfully carried out his first night landing on three engines! Of course he must have done numerous single engine landings as a flying instructor on Wellingtons.
[underlined]William G. Neal (Bill to all the crew) First impressions [/underlined]
I was approaching my twentieth birthday and Bill was almost twelve years my senior. His mature friendly nature and jovial personality transmitted a feeling of well being in all who came into contact with him. I personally regarded Bill as my mentor and felt that he was the one who would get us safely through the war.
His leadership qualities were of the highest calibre, namely: great courage, example, coolness under fire, tenacity, professionalism, and the ability to maintain high morale in his crew. Above all, Bill was a superb pilot!! We were all encouraged to stay fit and healthy and our skipper set a good example by playing squash regularly!
[underlined] Operations and Training [/underlined]
[page break]
Having completed training on the Halifax, the next stage was our introduction to the magnificent Lancaster. This was accomplished at the Lancaster Finishing School RAF Hemswell nr. Lincoln. It was only a short familiarisation course, both day and night flying, and Bill was immediately “at home” with this superb aircraft! So now we were all set to join The Pathfinder Force and proceeded to the PFF Navigation Training Unit at RAF Warboys nr. St. Ives Cambs. (only five miles from RAF Upwood). It was a very short course lasting only four days. We flew a training sortie each day consisting of navigation and practice bombing. During this course I was taught how to use the bombsight, how to give corrections to our pilot, and after practice in a synthetic trainer, dropped smoke/flash bombs on a nearby bombing range. The reason for the flight engineer having to become the visual bomb aimer in a Pathfinder crew, was due to the normal bomb aimer or observer being fully pre-occupied on his radar (H2s). He would probably have to mark the target indicators (Ti’s) if the “Master Bomber” called for them.
On the 25th May 1944 we arrived at Royal Air Force Upwood to join No. 156 (PFF) Squadron.
[underlined] Our First Crew on PFF [/underlined]
[underlined] Flying Officer W.G. (Bill) Neal [/underlined]PILOT and CAPTAIN (one tour of ops on Wellingtons and recent flying instructor at RAF Harwell, Oxon)
Sergeant D.W. (Don) Briggs FLIGHT ENGINEER (ex NCO aero engine fitter)
Pilot Officer Alan Lewis NAVIGATOR (one previous tour of ops)
Flying Officer George Hodges 2nd NAVIGATOR and H2S RADAR OPERATOR (one previous tour of ops on Wellingtons)
Flying Officer John Carrad WIRELESS OPERATOR (one previous tour of ops on Wellingtons)
Flying Officer “Jock” McViele [?] MID UPPER GUNNER (one previous tour of ops)
Flying Officer “Paddy” Kirk REAR GUNNER (one previous tour of ops)
The settling in period for the crew before commencing operations, was about two weeks of intensive training flights. These involved mostly radar navigation, practice bombing, fighter evasion which gave Bill some “corkscrewing” practice (we had a Spitfire making simulated fighter attacks from astern). Needless to say the gunners had their guns safe!! They were able to get live firing practice later on a sleeve being towed by special aircraft – even I had a go after being shown how to operate the guns in the front turret!!
During our training on the Halifax at Lindholme, Bill had very kindly given me an introductory flying lesson (I had never handled an aircraft in flight before!) After taking my place in the pilot’s seat, he showed me how to maintain the correct nose altitude for level flight and how to use the roll control to level the wings also make gentle turns. Once we were established on the Squadron we had a training commitment in navigation and bombing to fulfil. This was necessary in order to “hone” our skills and maintain the very high standards demanded of PATHFINDER crews. During most of these flights Bill and I would change places and under his close supervision, I would take control of the big Lancaster – what a fantastic feeling! By
[page break]
giving me plenty of handling practice, Bill, being a very responsible captain was ensuring that someone was capable of flying the aircraft in emergency. Thus I can take pride in saying that my first flying lessons were given by the excellent Bill Neal!! It’s worth noting that no Lancaster on the squadron was equipped with dual controls, which is why it was necessary for the pilot to vacate his seat to allow me to fly the aircraft.
We were now declared “fully operational” and on 11th July 1944 Bill called us together and said “we’re on the Battle Order for tonight chaps”! We lost no time in getting our flying kit on, then carry out a thorough check of our aircraft that we would be flying on the raid and by a short air test. The aircraft would then be prepared for the operational sortie by our ground crew (they were a dedicated band of men and took great pride in their own Lancaster). The fuel load was usually maximum. Then last of all would come the bomb load on special trolleys quite often towed by a W.A.A.F. The bombing up team would then winch the bombs/flares/Target Indicators into the bomb bay.
After a few hours rest in the afternoon it was time to attend a mass briefing. The target for our Op No. 1 was to be the marshalling yard at TOURS in Southern France. With all the flight planning completed we sat down to a good pre flight meal then made our way to the locker room. The air gunners had to wear plenty of warm clothing, as the outside air temperature at twenty thousand feet could be -10oC[?] and very little heat from the aircraft system reached the turrets. Both gunners were issued with electrically heated thermal suits and gauntlets. The rest of the crew wore thick rollneck pullovers under the battledress jacket and of course everyone wore fleece lined suede flying boots. Each crew member had his own parachute harness and chest[?] type parachutes were issued separately. We then boarded coaches and were dropped off at our own aircraft. The ground crew were already at the aircraft and the Form 700 (servicing record) was presented to Bill for signature. After the obligatory external inspection including an inspection of the bomb load and removal of safety pins, each crew member took up his position in the aircraft. It was my job to start all the engines when our skipper gave the order, and we had a precise time to start taxying. To see twenty or so Lancasters in a stream round the perimeter track was a thrilling sight!! There was always a crowd of station personnel by the side of the runway to see us off (lots of W.A.A.F.’s!!) It was vital that each bomber took off precisely on its allocated time. When it was our turn, Bill entered the runway lining up the heavily loaded Lancaster as close to the end as he could. At the end of the navigator’s countdown, Bill used to say “OK chaps as the earwig said – EARWIGO”!! as he advanced the throttles to full power accelerating down the runway for a perfect take off. Ask my ex Lancaster crew member and he will tell you what a wonderful sound those four Merlins made at full power!! I suspect the “earwig” saying was not only routine but superstition also, but it was part of every operational take off for our crew.
Once we had set course and were climbing to operational height the “butterflies” disappeared as we all had plenty to do. The flight engineer’s log had to be completed every half hour, recording all engine gauge readings and that fuel usage was according to plan. It was vital not to show any light in the cockpit. Bill’s flight instruments were dimly lit by u/v lights directed on to the luminous dials, and I had to use a torch with a very small hole in the blacked out glass when filling in my log.
[page break]
Both navigators worked under black out curtains. We had a very strict microphone discipline in a bomber crew. If a mic. Was left ON after saying something there was a hissing noise caused by oxygen flowing into the mask[?]. It was essential to keep the intercom quiet in case the gunners reported a night fighter and called “corkscrew (port or starboard) GO”. Our skipper Bill was a strong chap and could certainly throw a Lancaster around!! On my very first op with the crew I had my “baptism” in the form of two fighter attacks. Paddy our rear gunner saw the fighter before he could get in close and during the violent corkscrewing the four brownings in the rear turret made a noisy “clatter”. This was exciting stuff for the new crew member!!! In both attacks the fighter’s shots went wide and he broke away.
On this sortie and several more night ops to follow we were part of the “illuminating force”. This meant that we were one of the first to arrive at the target and would drop a stick of very bright parachute flares to enable the Master Bomber to visually identify the aiming point. He would be either a Lancaster or a Mosquito at a low altitude and would then drop cascading target indicators (mixed reds and greens). Further pathfinder aircraft were required to “back up” the marking by dropping more TI’s. Later in our tour we took on this role. Although anti aircraft fire (flak) on our first series of French targets was not intense, German targets were very heavily defended. Our first German target was Hamburg (op no. 13!!) and as we prepared for our bombing run the barrage of flak looked terrifying. Just as I was having doubts whether we could get through it, Bill said “don’t worry it always looks worse than it really is and the puffs of flak you see are the ones that can’t do any harm”. I felt slightly better!! The flak guns were radar predicted and the Germans had developed accurate height finding equipment. To make their job more difficult we used to fly a “weaving” course initially until the actual bombing run when the aircraft had to be held steady apart from small left and right corrections from bomb aimer to pilot. This is when we were most vulnerable to predicted flak and being "coned" by searchlights. Even after bomb release we still had to maintain heading until over the target and the photograph taken. This was a great relief to all the crew as it meant that Bill would usually dive for a few hundred feet then climb again and so on, until well clear of the target area. Our route away from the target was always planted to keep us clear of heavily defended areas, however, the threat from night fighters was ever present. Some ME110 fighters were fitted with upward firing canon. The pilot would fly formation below the bomber (in a blind spot to the gunners) and fire upwards with devastating results. In our Lancasters at the bomb aimer’s position there was a rearward facing perspex scoop through which we used to drop bundles of “window” (each containing millions of thin strips of silver foil to fog the enemy radar screens). I used to spend as much time as possible with my head down looking through this perspex in case a fighter was underneath.
One of the most sickening and demoralising sights was to witness a bomber aircraft being shot down. The bomber would be spinning down in a mass of flames and when it impacted (possibly with a full bomb load) there would be a massive explosion and fireball. Our navigator would make a note of the time and position, then we tried to put it out of our minds. Throughout our operational tours this experience was to be repeated many many times. We felt great sadness at the loss of our comrades, but thankful that we were spared.
It was a relief to be back over friendly territory on the way home and once we were
[page break]
crossing the North Sea the gunners could relax slightly. The aerodrome lights of Upwood were a most welcome sight and the controller had his work cut out fitting all the returning Lancasters into the circuit. Bill invariably brought our machine in for a well judged landing, tired though he must have been! Our ground crew were there on the dispersal to greet us climbing out of our trusty Lancaster and were always keen to know which target we had bombed. WAAFs with mugs of hot coffee laced with rum and the Padre having a chat as he handed out American cigarettes!! Then followed a debriefing by the intelligence officer and other specialists. Many times I remember walking back to the Mess for breakfast as dawn was breaking!
Some ops were very long flights (see record of operations following) and one might well ask “how did you stay awake and fully alert the whole time”? Well we had the option of taking “wakey wakey” pills as we used to call them. They were actually Benzodrine tablets (a stimulant) and most of us took them.
The remainder of our operation followed the general pattern previously described, however, we flew many daylight ops particularly in support of our ground forces on the Normandy Battle Front. We also attacked flying bomb sites in the Pas de Calais area using a special method. Six Lancasters flew close formation on a Mosquito equipped with “Oboe” (an extremely accurate blind bombing device). At the same split second the bomb left the Mosquito every Lancaster released its full load of bombs. Thus the V1(buzz bomb) site was totally obliterated possibly saving the lives of many Londoners. Ops 2, 3 and 4 were carried out on successive nights but were all fairly short trips to targets in France. On 14th October 1944 we flew a daylight raid on Duisburg in the morning, and with hardly any rest, attacked the same target that night! The target was an armaments factory in the Rhur and was heavily defended.
After completing my first tour (40 ops) having already had my commissioning interviews, sure enough exactly as Bill had promised, my commission came through. I was now able to join Bill and the rest of the crew in the Officers Mess.
At this Bill had completed[underlined] two tours [/underlined] of ops and decided to keep going as did Johnie Carrod, George Hodges, and of course myself (I wanted to complete two tours also). However, Alan Lewis (nav), Paddy Kirk and Jock McVitie (the two gunners) decided to “call it a day”. Thus our crew became:-
Flight Lieutenant (later Sqn. Ldr.) Bill Neal DFC Captain
Pilot Officer Don Briggs Flight Engineer
Flight Lieutenant George Hodges DFC H2S Radar Operator
Sergeant …..? Archer RCAF Navigator
Flight Lieutenant John Carrod DFC Wireless Operator
Flight Sergeant (later Warrant Officer) …..? Patterson (Mid Upper Gunner)
Flight Sergeant Eric Chamberlain Rear Gunner
And so we pressed on! From then on every op except one was a German target. We flew some very long trips (two of them were over [underlined] (eight hours)[underlined] Our longest flight was to Stettin
[page break]
On the Baltic coast – almost to Russia – eight and a half hours! That was stretching a Lancaster endurance to its limits I seem to remember.
We bombed Chemnitz and Dessau in Eastern Germany and of course on 13th Feb.1945, we were sent to Dresden. The firestorm was an awesome sight.
On the 24th March 1945 I flew my last operational sortie with Bill – it was a daylight raid on a Rhur target!
No words can do justice to the piloting skill, leadership, and fearless tenacity, coupled with the ability to maintain high morale, of our Captain, Comrade in Battle, and good friend, William G. Neal – Bill to all of us in his Lancaster bomber crew.
It was an honour to be part of his team, and I shall be eternally thankful that he got me through the most dangerous era of my life. Sadly, Bill Neal died on the 22nd November 2001. I shall miss him enormously.
[underlined] RECORD OF OPERATIONS [/underlined]
OPS 1 11th June 1944 Lanc III “J” (NE120) TOURS (M/Yards) 5hrs 55min.
OPS 2 15th June “ Lanc III “B” LENS 2hrs 20min.
OPS 3 16th June “ Lanc III “A” RENESCURE 2hrs 05min.
OPS 4 17th June “ Lanc III “H” MONTDIDIER 3hrs 30min.
OPS 5 24th June “ Lanc III “K” MIDDEL STRAETE 2hrs 15min.
OPS 6 27th June “ Lanc III “J” OISEMONT 2hrs 30 min.
OPS 7 2nd July “ Lanc III “J” OISEMONT 2hrs 50min.
OPS 8 7th July “ Lanc III “J” VAIRES (M/Yards nr PARIS) 4hrs 25min.
OPS 9 10th July “ Lanc III “J” NUCOURT 3hrs 00
OPS 10 12th July “ Lanc III “J” TOURS 5hrs 05min.
OPS 11 14th July “ Lanc III “J” PHILIBERT 3hrs 05
OPS 12 18th July “ Lanc III “J” CAGNY (Battle Front)
Wg.Cdr.Bingham-Hall Sqn. 2hrs. 50
OPS 13 28th July “ Lanc III “F” HAMBURG 4hrs 55
OPS 14 30th July “ Lanc III “K” BATTLE FRONT (Low level) 3hrd 05
OPS 15 3rd Aug. “ Lanc III “J” BOIS De CASSAN 3HRS 35
OPS 16 5th Aug. “ Lanc III “F” FORET De NIEPPE 2hrs 05
OPS 17 7th Aug. “ Lanc III “J” BATTLE FRONT A/P 5 2hrs 45
OPS 18 9th Aug. “ Lanc III “F” FORT D’ENGLOS 2hrs 20
OPS 19 12th Aug. “ Lanc III “D” RUSSELSHEIM (nr FRANKFURT) 4hrs 20
OPS 20 15th Aug. “ Lanc III “J” EINDHOVEN Airfield (Holland) 2 hrs 55
OPS 21 16th Aug. “ Lanc III “H” KIEL 5hrs 25
OPS 22 18th Aug. “ Lanc III “E” CONNANTRE (M/Yards) 5hrs 20
OPS 23 25th Aug. “ Lanc III “J” RUSSELSHEIM 7hrs 20
OPS 24 29th Aug. “ Lanc III “J” STETTIN (Our longest flight) 8hrs 30
OPS 25 31st Aug. “ Lanc III “D” LUMBRES 2hrs 35
OPS 26 15th Sept. “ Lanc III “J” KIEL 5hrs 05
[page break]
OPS 27 16th Sept. “ Lanc III “J” MOERDUK Bridges (Holland) 2hrs 55
OPS 28 20th Sept. “ Lanc III “J” CALAIS Area A/P 6B 2hrs 10
OPS 29 23rd Sept. “ Lanc III “J” NEUSS (DUSSELDORF) 3hrs 30
OPS 30 25th Sept. “ Lanc III ”A” CALAIS Area A/P IC 2hr 55
OPS 31 26th Sept. “ Lanc III ”A” CAP GRIS NEZ (CALAIS) 2hrs 30
OPS 32 27th Sept. “ Lanc III “A” CALAIS A/P 11 1hr 50
(Our shortest Operational Sortie!)
OPS 33 5th Oct. “ Lanc III “K” SAARBRUCKEN 5hrs 00
OPS 34 7th Oct. “ Lanc III “J” KLEVE (Flak damage to port wing) 3hrs 20
OPS 35 14th Oct. “ Lanc III “J” DUISBURG (RHUR) 3hrs 30
OPS 36 14th Oct. “ Lanc III “A” DUISBURG 4hrs 10
(Twice in one day!!!)
OPS 37 18th Nov. “ Lanc III “J” MUNSTER (Plt. Off. Don!!) 3hrs 50
OPS 38 28th Nov. “ Lanc III “J” ESSEN (RHUR) 4hrs 30
OPS 39 30th Nov. “ Lanc III “B” DUISBURG (RHUR) 4hrs 25
OPS 40 5th Dec. “ Lanc III “J” SOEST M/Yards (End of my
First tour of ops!) 5hrs 40
OPS 41 6th Dec. “ Lanc III “J” OSNABRUCK 5hrs 15
OPS 42 29th Dec. “ Lanc III “J” COBLENZ 4hrs 15
OPS 43 2nd January 1945 Lanc III “J” NURNBURG 7hrs 40
OPS 44 4th Jan. “ Lanc III “J” ROYAN (Nr. Bordeaux) 5hrs 05
OPS 45 5th Jan. “ Lanc III “J” HANOVER 4hrs
OPS 46 14th Jan. “ Lanc III “J” LEUNA (Morsburg) Oil Plant
(Diverted Tangmere – fog at Upwood) 8hrs 05
OPS 47 16th Jan. “ Lanc III “J” ZEITZ (Oil Plant Nr. Leipzig) 6hrs 30
OPS 48 28th Jan. “ Lanc III “0” STUTTGART
(Flew with Flt. Lt. Williams) 6hrs 00
OPS 49 7th Feb. “ Lanc III “J” GOCH (Bombed from 4500ft) 4hrs 40
OPS 50 8th Feb. “ Lanc III “B” POLLITZ (STETTIN) 8hrs 05
OPS 51 13th Feb. “ Lanc III “J” [underlined] DRESDEN [/underlined] 7hrs 45
OPS 52 1st March “ Lanc III “J” MANNHIEM 5hrs 05
OPS 53 5th March “ Lanc III “J” CHEMNITZ 7hrs 40
OPS 54 7th March “ Lanc III “J” DESSAU 7hrs 50
OPS 55 8th March “ Lanc III “J” HAMBURG 5hrs 15
OPS 56 12th March “ Lanc III “J” DORTMUND 4hrs 25
OPS 57 15TH March “ Lanc III “J” MISBURG Oil Refinery 6hrs 20
(Nr. Hanover)
OPS 58 16th March “ Lanc III “J” NURNBURG (3 fighter attacks) 6hrs 50
OPS 59 19th March “ Lanc III “J” HANAU Nr. Frankfurt 5hrs 45
OPS 60 20th March “ Lanc III “H” HEMMINGSTADT (Nr. Heide
30 miles South of Danish border) 4hrs 35
OPS 61 22nd March “ Lanc III “J” HILDESHIEM (Nr. Hanover) 4hrs 25
OPS 62 24TH March “ Lanc III “J” HARPENERWEG (RHUR) 4hrs 25
[page break]
[underlined] NOTES [/underlined]
Operations printed in RED were flown at night. Those printed in GREEN were daylight operations.
[underlined] Forty one [/underlined] operations were flown in Lancaster “J - Johnnie” (that would be “Juliet” in present day international phonetic alphabet).
The most concentrated months were August 1944 (eleven sorties), and March 1945 (eleven sorties)
Author: Flight Lieutenant Donald Ward Briggs, DFC RAF (Retd.)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tribute to a Pathfinder captain
Description
An account of the resource
Tribute to Squadron Leader William G Neal Distinguished Service Order, Distinguished Flying Cross, Croix de Guerre, 1912-2001. Describes how Don Briggs met and was crewed with Bill Neal’s crew who having completed one tour had been selected for a second on Pathfinders. Describes training as well as Bill Neal’s piloting and leadership qualities. Notes that Bill Neal gave Don Briggs the opportunity to learn to fly. Describes first operation on 156 Squadron Pathfinders to Tours in France in great detail including being engaged by night fighters. Describes various Pathfinder techniques and attacking V-1 bomb sites formation on Oboe-equipped Mosquito. Describes operations over Germany with reference to ant-aircraft fire and night fighters. Explains that some of the crew including Neal and Briggs volunteered for a further tour completing a total of 62 operations. Ends with a list of all 62 operations.
Creator
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Donald Briggs
Format
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Eight typewritten pages
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Identifier
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BBriggsDWNealeWv1
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
France--Tours
Germany
France
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1944-06
1944-07
1944-07-18
1944-07-30
1944-08
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-15
1945
Contributor
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Sue Smith
David Bloomfield
156 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
bombing up
crewing up
debriefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
fear
flight engineer
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Me 110
military service conditions
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oboe
Pathfinders
perimeter track
pilot
promotion
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
searchlight
superstition
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
target photograph
training
V-1
V-weapon
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/114/1173/ADelfinoG171029.1.mp3
82938fcfa0094b054fdc2fa441873da9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Delfino, Giovanni
Giovanni Delfino
G Delfino
Description
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One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects her wartime experiences in the Milan and Cremona areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-29
Identifier
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Delfino, G
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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ST: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre, l’intervistatrice è Sara Troglio, l’intervistato è Giovanni Delfino, e l’intervista ha luogo a casa dell’intervistato in [omitted] a Carate Brianza. Oggi è il 29 Ottobre 2017 e sono le ore 17. Volevo chiederti un po’ della tua vita prima della guerra, dove abitavate, appunto, ciò che ti ricordavi sul tuo quartiere.
GD: Allora, come ha già detto l’intervistatrice, sono Giovanni Delfino, classe 1933, ai tempi del racconto avevo undici anni, undici, dodici anni, perché parliamo del ’44-’45. Precedentemente all’avvenimento devo dire che la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era situato in Via Petitti al numero 11, che era una via adiacente alla Via Traiano che confinava con gli stabilimenti Alfa Romeo del Portello, i primi stabilimenti che erano stati fatti a Milano. Fino a quel momento, io la guerra l’avevo diciamo così sentita un po’ da lontano perché i miei genitori avevano provveduto a farmi sfollare nella zona di Cremona da nostri parenti dimodoché io ad un certo momento quando c’era un incursione aerea su Milano li sentivo solamente per sentito dire, oppure quando succedevano di notte da questa distanza che erano circa 60 chilometri, io vedevo i bagliori delle parti delle case incendiate eccetera perché essendo campagna tutta piatta si riusciva a vedere i bagliori da Milano. Caso vuole che ormai considerando che la guerra stava finendo, i miei genitori decisero di ritornare a casa e qui successe il fattaccio, successe il fattaccio perché dunque la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era adiacente ad un convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù, circondato da altissimi muraglioni alti, alti, alti, e intorno c’eran tutte, vuoi l’Alfa Romeo, e vuoi piccole aziende e altra campagna cioè prati, più che altro coltivazioni di ortaggi, eccetera eccetera. Dico questo perché una particolarità, tutte le siepi che circondavano queste ortaglie erano diciamo, luogo, diciamo, di ritrovo degli operai di queste ditte, piccole ditte che, finito l’orario di mensa, si mettevano per quei pochi minuti che rimanevano ancora a giocare a carte o a dama all’ombra di queste siepi. Il giorno che sto per raccontare era un giorno, non mi ricordo bene se luglio o agosto, era sul mezzogiorno. Gli operai erano tutti sotto queste siepi a giocare, eccetera eccetera. Io ero appena tornato da, dalla spesa, dall’aver fatto la spesa con mia mamma, che si trovava sull’androne del caseggiato insieme ad altre persone perché sotto c’era un bar, e insieme a un ufficiale dell’aereonautica militare italiana. Io ero lì che guardavo, curiosavo e la, come fanno tutti i bambini, questi operai che giocavano a carte, a dama, eccetera eccetera. A un certo momento, suona il piccolo allarme. Il piccolo allarme, allora c’era il piccolo allarme e il grande allarme. Il piccolo allarme veniva dato quando le squadriglie erano distanti abbastanza da Milano. In quel momento lì invece cosa successe? Successe che, con questo piccolo allarme, l’ufficiale che c’era insieme lì a mia mamma che stava chiacchierando, sentendo il rombo così degli aerei, guardò in alto e già a una certa distanza, essendo anche pratico, insomma, del mestiere [laughs], vide che c’era questa squadriglia altissima, altissima no, di Liberator, dice, famosi Liberator, e il caposquadriglia aveva fatto, aveva iniziato a fare una manovra, diciamo così, di circoscrizione della zona che, a detta dell’ufficiale dell’areonautica, era un segnale per, diciamo, l’inizio del bombardamento. Al che, l’ufficiale gridò subito: ‘Bombardano, bombardano!’, mia madre, immaginare lo spavento, io, come tutti i bambini che quando vengono richiamati dalle proprie madri, no, ci mettono una, due, tre volte prima di decidersi a rispondere, a obbedire, come sentii il grido di mia mamma, partii come un razzo e arrivai di volata, percorsi questi cinquanta, sessanta metri, quelli che potevano essere, arrivai sotto all’androne della casa. In quel momento arrivavano le prime bombe. Lo spostamento d’aria buttò mia madre, l’ufficiale ed io giù per la tromba delle scale, verso i rifugi, che normalmente una volta si chiamavano rifugi ma, insomma, erano quello che erano, erano le cantine, e fortunatamente in fondo alle scale c’era un mucchio di sabbia, che veniva messo per gli incendi, eventualmente spegnere gli incendi, e io ero davanti, dietro c’era mia mamma, l’ufficiale, e giù tutti a capo di collo e io mi infilai con la testa dentro nel mucchio della sabbia, mi ferii la testa, infatti sto facendo vedere ancora la cicatrice all’intervistatrice. E finisce così, frastuono, polvere, e devo dire che a distanza adesso di anni, ragionando adesso dai miei ottantaquattro anni, devo dire, sinceramente, che io non provai grande spavento perché probabilmente la situazione era stata così rapida, traumatica, improvvisa, imprevedibile, eccetera eccetera che non aveva lasciato il tempo di pensarci troppo, giusto? Alla fine, passa, passa il bombardamento, si esce. Spettacolo, allora sì, incominciamo ad avere una sensazione, così, non più di paura perché ormai non c’era più la paura ma di accoramento perché la strada era ormai tappezzata di macerie. Avanti di noi c’era una casa proprio che era sul limite della Alfa Romeo proprio, di quattro piani con, abitata da molti miei amici e ancora una casa di quelle vecchie, fatte di mattoni, non cemento armato, era letteralmente un cumulo di mattoni, un cumulo di macerie con sotto tutte le persone. [pause] Per fortuna la nostra casa, sì, aveva le persiane abbattute, finestre e i vetri rotti eccetera ma era ancora in piedi, non aveva subito danni, qualche scheggia eccetera perché? Faccio una piccola premessa doverosa. A quei tempi gli Alleati sapevano che, per esempio, l’Alfa Romeo aveva adottato per gli stabilimenti, per esempio di Pomigliano d’Arco a Napoli eccetera, il sistema di costruire i reparti sottoterra, per proteggerli dai bombardamenti. E allora loro, i bombardamenti, adottavano un sistema. Anziché usare bombe dirompenti, usavano bombe perforanti, le quali entravano sottoterra, e esplodevano, non alla quota diciamo zero, ma sottoterra. E così fecero anche per questo bombardamento, no. Questo per noi fu una salvezza perché, salvezza con una concomitanza anche di destino perché ad un certo momento, guardando poi la disposizione delle buche delle bombe di questo bombardamento a tappeto, vedemmo che quella bomba che in teoria, in pratica doveva arrivare su casa nostra, si era spostata di circa una cinquantina di metri, forse di più. Era andata a finire in una delle ortaglie. Andando a finire in una delle ortaglie, aveva perforato il terreno, aveva tirato su terra a non finire al punto che al terzo piano della nostra casa, sopra di noi abitava il padrone di casa, che aveva un terrazzo e con la terra che arrivò sul terrazzo riempì i vasi di fiori, non buttò via la terra, questo per dire. E questa è stata una fortuna, perché praticamente non c’è stato spostamento d’aria. Piccola premessa, piccola anzi parentesi, più che premessa, la vicinanza del convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù gridò, ci portò anche a dire, è stato anche un miracolo perché c’aveva protetto. Benissimo, prendiamo tutto per buono, l’importante che non ci era successo niente. Però, questo è un fatto che, mi dispiace quasi dirlo che, perché è un po’ macabro. Voi dovete pensare che le finestre della mia abitazione guardavano proprio su queste ortaglie, dove c’erano le siepi con quegli operai che stavano lavorando, che stavano giocando a carte eccetera eccetera. Non se ne salvò uno perché quella famosa bomba che è arrivata nell’ortaglia, sì, ha salvato la mia casa ma purtroppo non ha salvato gli operai. Bene, io non so per quanti mesi non mangiai più carne, ecco la storia macabra, perché dalle finestre di casa mia ogni tanto si vedeva il carro funebre del comune che andava a rovistare nell’ortaglia, non so cosa facessero però si vedeva che tiravano su delle cose, le mettevano dentro in sacchi di plastica e poi se ne andavano, basta, vi lascio pensare cosa potevano tirare su, senz’altro non carote e patate. E questo insomma è stato la mia esperienza bellica attribuita alle incursioni aeree. E voi dovete pensare, un particolare che può essere così anche di alleggerimento a questo racconto, in una, una dei crateri delle bombe che, essendo un bombardamento a tappeto, praticamente di bombe ne avevano sganciate un bel po’, era proprio vicino a casa nostra, no, e quando ci sono stati gli Alleati, da noi c’era un insediamento della Croce Rossa e allora c’erano degli italo-americani che si erano fatti amici dei miei genitori, venivano da noi a prendere il caffè, erano dei militari di Boston, mi ricordo ancora, no, bravissime, bravissime persone, no, e ovviamente io su suggerimento loro andavo in una delle buche di queste bombe, allora c’era qualche buca era adibita a raccolta di rifiuti diciamo umidi, e questa buca invece era adibita a rifiuti invece cartacei e lì c’era tutta la corrispondenza, le buste della corrispondenza che ricevevano i militari americani, e io, appassionato di filatelia, andavo a raccogliere dentro nella busta, [laughs] nella buca della bomba, andavo a raccogliere queste buste per togliere i francobolli che sono ancora qua nella mia collezione che quando li vedo mi viene un senso di, così di commozione perché a ottantaquattro anni ci si commuove anche per, guardando dei francobolli. Ecco questo per dirvi, questo bombardamento a tappeto cosa aveva prodotto, nel male 90% e nel bene 10% per i francobolli del Gianni Delfino, che sarei io.
SR: Prima mi parlavi di tuo papà e del suo lavoro in Alfa Romeo. Volevo chiederti.
GD: Sì, ecco sì, mio padre, noi abitavamo proprio vicini alla Alfa Romeo perché era abitudine, abitudine, si cercava chi lavorava in questi stabilimenti di metter su casa vicino per essere comodi, per non avere tanta strada da fare così. E mio padre aveva, ha lavorato la bellezza di quarantun’anni in Alfa Romeo, era un capolinea sulle dentatrici Gleason, di modo che io ho sempre mangiato pane e ingranaggi a casa mia, perché il suo da fare è raccontare, io ero figlio unico, era raccontare, a lui piaceva molto mettere al corrente, metterci al corrente di quello che succedeva sui posti di lavoro, sulle evoluzioni tecniche della costruzione degli ingranaggi eccetera eccetera, che, considerando che erano in Alfa Romeo, erano di altissima qualità perché sappiamo che l’Alfa Romeo allora insomma era una delle prime ditte italiane in fatto di costruzioni di automobili.
ST: E vi parlava anche della vita in fabbrica magari come succedevano, cosa succedeva durante i bombardamenti lì o episodi di resistenza?
GD: No, [unclear], se, ecco, quando avevano sentore di qualche allarme, sulla Via Renato Serra che era una via proprio che tagliava in due praticamente lo stabilimento dell’Alfa Romeo, avevano costruito degli enormi rifugi antiaerei di cemento armato, saran stati, avranno avuto minimo minimo un venti metri di diametro, dentro c’era tutta una, chiamiamo una scala a chiocciola, dove gli operai entravano, e poi man mano, tu, tu, tu, tuck, si sistemavano tutti seduti su questa scala a chiocciola eccetera; questi rifugi erano fatti anche con una punta conica, con una punta d’acciaio, proprio la cuspide in acciaio per fare in modo che se arrivasse, arrivava qualche bomba eccetera, era portata a scivolare via, insomma, non poteva dare l’impatto su questa. E questo è uno delle caratteristiche diciamo che mi ricordo. Poi, tu cosa, cosa mi chiedeva lei, scusi?
ST: Ti chiedevo se appunto lui magari parlava di, come reagivano gli operai durante i bombardamenti.
GD: Ah, niente, no, guardi, ormai c’era un’assuefazione tale che a un certo momento niente, non dico che quando c’era il bombardamento ‘oh che bellezza, così non lavoriamo!’, però insomma non è che si, oddio, gli operai la preoccupazione erano per i familiari a casa perché loro si sentivano superprotetti in questi bunker no, però purtroppo, come abbiamo visto, se ci fosse stato un operaio che aveva dei parenti nella casa di fianco alla mia, eh, vi lascio ben immaginare quale poteva essere stato il suo stato d’animo alla sera quando sarebbe uscito dal suo rifugio e fosse andato a casa sua ecco. Questo non, eh, niente.
ST: E i tuoi genitori parlavano della guerra o del regime, si scambiavano opinioni politiche quando erano in casa, anche davanti a te?
GD: Sì, sì, sì, sì, non è che si, cioè per quanto potessi capire io a dodici anni però a un certo momento qualcosa capivo anche perché posso dire perché tanto non è un segreto, mio padre non era di idee di regime. [background noise] Diciamo, sei possiamo dire all’opposto, abbiamo detto tutto. E a tal riguardo io potrei, mi piacerebbe raccontare un fatto molto, molto significativo, che elude da quello che è i bombardamenti, l’incursione aerea così, però è un fatto umano molto interessante. Il reparto di mio padre era decentrato a Usmate, un paese qui nella periferia di Milano. Mio padre così, forse, così, godeva di grande stima da ambo le parti, dalla direzione che senz’altro politicamente non la pensava come lui, dagli operai che politicamente qualcuno anche pensava come lui, e da, diciamo dei gruppi, diciamo partigiani, ecco, diciamo il termine giusto come deve essere, anche perché mio padre faceva parte della Brigata Garbialdi, parliamo chiaro, Garibaldi prima civile, non armata non, però questo cosa gli faceva fare? Voi pensate, quando era il giorno di paga, mio padre prendeva la bicicletta, mettevano le paghe in una borsa di cuoio normale che veniva messa a cavallo della canna della bicicletta, come si fa quando si mette dentro la merenda, oppure la colazione eccetera, e lui partiva lemme, lemme da Milano, prendeva la Gallaratese, trac andava verso Usmate eccetera eccetera a portare le paghe. Voi dovete pensare che, strada facendo, spesso e volentieri incontrava partigiani, che saltavano fuori un po’ da tutte le parti. Non l’hanno mai fermato una volta. Primo, perché sapevano chi era, poi perché, onestamente, erano partigiani onesti. Perché uso la parola onesti? Perché dobbiamo essere consapevoli che, a quei tempi, l’onestà non è che era una bandiera che tutti sventolavano; l’onestà era un piccolo vessillo privato che ognuno, alle volte cercava quasi di tenere di nascosto, per non farsi vedere troppo onesto. E allora probabilmente lui ha avuto la fortuna di incontrare sempre queste persone che, conoscendolo ed essendo onesti, non l’hanno mai fermato e non gli hanno mai portato via una lira. Lui arrivava sempre sul posto e portava le paghe agli operai di Usmate. Questo è un fatto molto molto importante e significativo perché purtroppo si sentono tanti racconti non belli di persone che approfittavano della loro idea politica e del loro grado, soprattutto idea politica, per fare anche nefandezze. A me piacerebbe, se è consentito, poi casomai sarà l’intervistatrice che taglierà, perché ad un certo momento io in questa intervista avevo fatto una riflessione, ero stato preparato dalla signorina Troglio, perché io, in mezzo a queste cose qui, così tragiche, volevo dire due cose significative, molto molto belle, che io devo cercare di non farmi prendere dalla commozione, intanto che le racconterò. Allora, noi avevamo undici dodici anni. Non è che si patisse la fame però ci si arrangiava come ragazzi a, insomma, a cercare dove, noi per esempio andavamo in queste ortaglie, che dicevo, a prendere, a rubare, a prendere le zucche, poi a fette le portavamo in questa casa di quattro piani, cumulo di macerie che vi ho descritto, c’era un fornaio e noi le portavamo quando il forno era spento però ancora caldo, portavamo le fette di zucca verso le tre, quattro del pomeriggio e poi le andavamo a prendere alle sette, alle otto, perché erano belle cotte e ce le mangiavamo. Ecco, questo per dire un particolare ma questo qui è un particolare ameno. Ma invece quello che ho detto che mi dà commozione ancora è questo. In Viale Certosa c’era tutto il filiare di platani. Ora, a un certo momento il comando tedesco aveva dato ordine di abbattere il platani, probabilmente non era, era per una questione di approvvigionamento di legna da ardere perché chiunque vi insegna che se c’è un filare di alberi e ci sono dei mezzi militari ci tengono a non abbatterli perché essendo nascosti dietro gli alberi gli aerei non li vedono. Perciò sarebbe stato assurdo un bel viale alberato, andare ad abbattere gli alberi quando, però abbiamo capito che era perché anche loro poveretti insoma c’avevano bisogno di legna da ardere. Bene. Particolare bellissimo, bellissimo, cioè noi arriviamo davanti a questo albero, noi siamo in due o tre amici che siamo lì a guardare abbattere l’albero con le borse della spesa in mano. C’è un tedesco con l’ascia che sta abbattendo l’albero. Ovviamente saltano via le schegge di legno, noi ragazzi raccogliavamo le schegge di legno per portarle a casa e accendere la stufa. Questo giovane tedesco, soldato tedesco, me lo ricordo ancora, faceva apposta a far fatica a fare le schegge più grosse per far in modo che noi, anziché le schegge piccole avessimo dei pezzi di legno più grossi da portar via, questa è una cosa che io, mentre la sto dicendo, mi sto commovendo, perché è una cosa che, niente, con questo io non sto difendendo il soldato tedesco tout court. No, per l’amor del cielo, eh, lungi da me, niente, sto riferendo un fatto mio personale che è molto, molto, molto importante. E il secondo fatto, e io ho già detto che nella mia famiglia, avete già capito le idee politiche quali potevano essere, però in quel momento, noi dobbiamo ricordare che negli anni ’40 eccetera, si era tutti infollarmati [sic], si era molto tutti, io ero un figlio della lupa, dico la verità, avevo la mia divisina anch’io, no, eccetera, e io mi ricorderò sempre un altro fatto importantissimo. Di fianco a noi, di fianco a questo convento delle suore c’era anche e c’è ancora un, diciamo, un ricovero eccetera, un’opera, dove erano ricoverati gli orfani, degli orfanelli, erano gli orfani di Padre Beccaro, esiste ancora eccetera. , Benissimo, a un certo momento c’era la scritta sopra, c’era scritto, ‘Opera derelitti di Padre Beccaro’. Derelitti è una parola italiana normale che vuol dire ‘abbandonati’, non è un’offesa, no? Bene. A un certo momento, arriva il Duce, arriva il Duce, tutto il rione in subbuglio, tutte, non tanto gli uomini perché erano al lavoro ma tutte le donne coi figli: ‘Arriva il Duce andiamo a vedere cosa farà questo Duce!’. Io me lo ricordo ancora adesso, come mi ricordo il tedesco là che faceva, io me lo ricordo ancora arrampicato su una scala, mia moglie, mia mamma eccetera, con le lacrime agli occhi insieme ad altri, io no perché io non capivo, perché io avrò avuto sei, sette anni, otto anni, quello che è, e avevano preparato, solo la parola, la parola ‘derelitti’ era stata tutta inbiancata. E lui, me lo ricordo, io chiudo gli occhi, me lo vedo ancora sulla scala, col pennello di vernice nera, che ha scritto ‘piccoli’, ‘Opera piccoli di Padre Beccaro’, ancora adesso se andate a vedere, c’è scritto ‘opera piccoli’ adesso fatta bene ovvio, aveva fatto togliere la parola ‘derelitti’ perché non voleva, ecco. Parliamo chiaro, è propaganda, cioè non sto dicendo che in quel momento lì il Duce si è svegliato una mattina e preso da un rimorso, ‘oh, io devo andare’, no, quello no, propaganda eccetera, però sono quelle cose che, cioè riflettendo adesso, dico ma, pensate un pochettino cosa può fare un regime per riuscire a imbonirsi eccetera, le persone. Oh, lì c’era una massa di donne che piangevano perché vedevano il Duce che stava scrivendo la parola ‘piccoli’ e infatti bisogna dire, è un fatto che non è riprovevole, anche encominabile perché insomma uno che tira via la parola ‘derelitti’ e ci mette ‘piccoli’, insomma tanto di cappello, giusto? Se l’avesse fatto un prete, sarebbe stata la stessa cosa. Ecco questo è il secondo fatto, diciamo così ameno, leggero che volevo mettere insieme al bombardamento.
ST: Ma, volevo chiederti, a scuola, com’era la vita a scuola durante la guerra, se avevano parlato di bombardamenti o vi parlavano della guerra in corso.
GD: No, dunque, allora devi pensare questo, io premesso, io un certo momento, nonostante le idee eccetera però si era presi dentro in un canale, io ero un figlio della lupa, avevo la mia bella divisina, ci tenevo a andare alla Scuola Pietro Micca di Via Gattamelata a fare le mie riunioni eccetera tutto così eccetera e non sono mai diventato Balilla perché siccome sono sfollato di modo ché non ho fatto in tempo. Io la terza, la quarta, la quinta l’ho fatta a Castelleone in quel di Cremona, perciò a un certo momento là per me la guerra non esisteva più, il fascio non esisteva più, cioè, ero ben lontano là, vivevo in mezzo ai campi contadini, per me insomma ormai, per me la vita era con le mucche, i tori, i cavalli eccetera eccetera, no, ecco. E perciò direi che mah, sì, io a un certo momento, più che la guerra in sé stesso, eccetera eccetera, ricordo due o tre fatti, proprio rapidissimi, così, per esempio, i fascisti scappano da Milano, c’erano i giovani della X Mas eccetera, eccetera, che mi ricordo che passavano da Viale Certosa, quel viale dove avevano abbattuto gli alberi e, io dico adesso alla mia età, con una paura addosso, perché chissà che paura avevano, erano, passavano coi camion, e sparavano sulle finestre perché non volevano che la gente si affacciasse a vedere che loro stavano scappando. Questo me lo ricordo perché casa mia, praticamente, Via Petitti è all’inizio era dopo c’era Viale Certosa perciò io da casa mia vedevo le case di Viale Certosa e quando sono passati sentendo il crepitio delle armi mi avevano detto ’Sì, sono i giovincelli del fascio che stanno sparando sulle finestre, perché probabilmente si vergognano per vedere che stavano scappando’. E invece l’altro fatto, l’altro fatto invece increscioso che mi ricordo, mi ricordo quello l’ho visto io,l’ho visto non visto fare ma visto dopo, quando hanno incominciato a fare le epurazioni che in Via Poliziano hanno preso la Ferida e Osvaldo Valenti, che erano i due attori, e a un certo momento li hanno fucilati lì sul marciapiede. Quella è stata una cosa che, ecco, io ricordo più, diciamo mi ha fatto più effetto il dopoguerra che la guerra, perché il dopoguerra per esempio c’era l’ingegner, faccio un nome, l’ingegner Gobbato. L’ingegnier Gobbato è un ingegnere dell’Alfa Romeo, bravissima persona, detto da mio padre, guardi, una cosa eccetera, ma era fascista, perché per forza, là tutti da un certo grado in sù, dai capi in sù dovevano essere per forza iscritti al fascio, perché altrimenti vivevano male, no? E a un certo momento si vede che qualcuno ce l’aveva su, dopo l’epurazione, a un certo momento l’hanno trovato in mezzo alla neve, fuori dell’Alfa Romeo, ammazzato eccetera, no? Ecco lì sono cose che si ricordano, si ricordano molto, molto, molto, molto, per far capire un pochetto cosa vuol dire cosa sono le, come si può dire, le vendette personali. E io posso dire che sotto di noi abitava un fascista. A un certo momento è stato preso e portato a San Vittore. Era una brava persona. Dopo un po’ di giorni è tornato a casa. Questo per dire che non era tanto perché uno avesse l’iscrizione al fascio o non al fascio, tutto dipendeva dall’indole della persona, una persona poteva essere malvagia o persona buona, e persona, e questo sono i vari ricordi. Oddio, questa è un’intervista che è partita con un tema ben preciso e cioè incursioni aeree eccetera eccetera, la RAF minga la RAF eccetera eccetera. Niente, potremmo farla un’altra, io ho aggiunto qualche particolare, potrei aggiungere altri particolari interessanti di vita bellica però su un altro tema, cioè il tema: vita bellica di un ragazzo eccetera eccetera. Si potrà fare un domani eccetera perché ci sono dei.
ST: Se vuoi anche ora.
GD: Degli altri, degli altri, ci sono degli altri avvenimenti importanti, per esempio, uno devo dirlo, devo dirlo perché.
ST: Racconta pure tutto quello che vuoi.
GD: E’ più forte di me. Allora, mio zio, anzi se la qui presente eccetera vuole anche con il telefonino filmare, riprendere un attimino quello che sto dicendo eccetera eccetera, mio zio era carrista sui carri armati M11 e diciamo zona di El Alamein, tanto per intenderci, carri armati M11 erano carri armati. L’M, avevano l’arma in torretta, poi furono trasformati in M13 con l’arma nello scafo, cioè praticamente fissa nello scafo, non nella torretta. Ovviamente con i carri armati inglesi bastava un colpo ben assestato che partiva via tutto, erano degli scatolini e io devo dire che mio zio era carrista, lui era capocarro a parte che a capocarro lì erano dentro in due o tre mi sembra, non è che come adesso sono dentro in cinque sei. E in una battaglia, mi ricorderò sempre, mi disse, stavano andando, a un certo momento colpiti da altri carri, a un certo momento un colpo tremendo, deve immaginare il frastuono tremendo eccetera eccetera tutto, a un certo momento, lui, il cannoniere era sopra di lui, lui era nello scafo, il cannoniere, e lui a un certo momento [screams] a cominciato a gridare, prende la gamba del cannoniere e gli dice, uè te, lo chiama per nome, cosa è successo, e gli è rimasto in mano la gamba. Praticamente il colpo aveva portato via la torretta, il cannoncino e mezzo cannoniere. Questo è stato il trauma di mio, al punto che mio zio è saltato fuori dal carro, si è spogliato, si è messo in mutande, si è messo con le mani alzate, e ha sperato che non ci fosse nessuno che lo colpisse. È stato fatto prigioniero. Ecco, questo non è per vigliaccheria, questo per dire come ci si trova. È stato fatto prigioniero, portato in Africa, bla, bla, bla, bla, tutto eccetera eccetera eccetera, rimpatriato, ehm, parte la nave, siluro, tutti mezzi morti, mio zio fortunamente aveva il mal di mare, era andato in coperta e si era addormentato su un rotolo di corde, giusto, e questo l’ha salvato perché è stato buttato a mare, è stato la bellezza di dodici ore a bagnomaria in acqua e poi è stato salvato dagli inglesi. Portato ancora in campo di concentramento, in Africa così, faceva il cuoco, stava benissimo, eccetera, eccetera. Precedentemente, voi dovete pensare che, per la sete, arrivavano a bere l’acqua dei radiatori del carro armato. Non gliene fregava niente se il carro armato poi si fermava, piuttosto che morire di sete bevevano l’acqua. E infatti mio zio poi dopo reduce a casa così, quando è deceduto, è deceduto anche perché aveva lo stomaco un po’. Ma il fatto invece bellissimo, bellissimo, uguale a uno di quelli che mi ricordo, è: io sono sfollato a Castelleone, ritorna mio zio reduce dalla prigionia, siamo in questo paese, la prima cosa che fece, mi ricordo guardi anche, me lo sento adesso, mi prende, mi porta fuori in campagna, c’era una roggia che si chiamava la Seriola, si chiama la Seriola, è un affluente del fiume Serio che incrocia sopra la Seriola, ci sono dei canali in cemento per portare l’acqua, eh cosa fanno, mica possono, allora facevano i canali, fanno i canali in cemento. E c’era uno di questi canali in cemento con dentro l’acqua corrente che se la Seriola era non so a diciotto gradi, lì l’acqua sarà stata a dodici gradi, forse a dieci. La soddisfazione di questa persona, reduce, arriva a casa, saluta i parenti, la prima cosa che fa, prende il Gianni, che ero io, andiamo in campagna, andiamo alla Seriola, ci spogliamo e in mutande dentro a bagnomaria nella corrente, a sentire quest’acqua fresca, fresca, freddissima, gelata. Io a un certo momento seguivo lo zio, e, cioè vabbè, non è che, mi piaceva, mi piaceva il fatto, non tanto perché io sentivo freddo ma io mi ricordo la soddisfazione di questo uomo a essere al suo paese, vivo, e immerso nell’acqua gelida, bella corrente, che avrà sognato non so per quanti anni, per quanti anni, per quanti anni. Bellissimo, bellissimo, sono dei fatti questi che sono, sono indimenticabili, indimenticabili, indimenticabili. E io torno a dire, la mia memoria ormai è quella che è: non mi ricordo quasi cosa ho mangiato a mezzogiorno, però questi fatti qui sono indelebili nella mia mente e mi fa tanto, tanto, tanto piacere perché io, come tutti i vecchi, chissà quante volte le ho già raccontate a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, magari annoiandoli anche, mi fa piacere che questa volta così ho potuto lasciarli a una persona che magari ne può far tesoro, insieme ad altre testimonianze.
ST: Volevo farti un’ultimissima domanda.
GD: Sì. Dica.
ST: MI parlavi appunto dell’attivitò partigina di tuo papà. Lui in fabbrica era sabotatore quindi? Cosa?
GD: Sì, ah allora, [laughs], a un certo momento, dovete pensare anche questo: quando si parla di sabotaggio, sabotaggio non vuol dire mettere un ordigno esplosivo, far saltar per aria qualcosa eccetera. Sabotaggio c’è anche il sabotaggio intelligente. Il sabotaggio intelligente, che è molto pericoloso perché può essere frainteso come un finto sabotaggio. Cioè, lui essendo un capolinea perciò a un certo momento aveva anche una responsabilità verso gli operai, doveva stare attento anche che gli operai non facessero delle cavolate di loro iniziativa, però loro a un certo momento, se c’era, a un certo momento avevano capito che c’erano dei pezzi che facevano, che non c’entravano niente coi motori Alfa Romeo, erano dei pezzi che venivano fatti poi incellofanati tutti, oliati, eccetera, erano pezzi di V1, venivano mandati in Germania. E mi ricordo perché me ne portò a casa anche qualche dopo la guerra erano rimasti in magazzino, e mi diceva: ‘vedi, questi qui sono pezzi che facevamo per lavoro’, in modo che potete immaginare il controllo dei tedeschi come era, [makes a rhythmic noise], com’era pressante, no, eccetera, in modo che bisognava stare attenti di, se c’era da fare mille pezzi, cercare di farne ottocento, non cento, però ottocento, insomma duecento meno. Per fare questo, le macchine dovevano andare non troppo bene, però non potevano essere manomesse col dire ‘Ah io faccio bruciare il motore elettrico, la macchina non va più!’. No, deve essere sempre il solito bullone semisvitato, il solito dado che manca, il solito filo che si è spelato e ha fatto un po’, e non fa più contatto ma basta riagganciarlo e la macchina riparte, però intanto si perdono le ore, eccetera eccetera, ecco questo era stato fatto, questo mi raccontava che loro sabotaggio ne facevano, però era un sabotaggio, infatti non c’è mai stato in Alfa Romeo una rappresaglia e che erano curati perché, dovete pensare che uno degli azionisti dell’Alfa Romeo era Benito Mussolini, figuriamoci no. Eh, e questo è quello che mi raccontava dei sabotaggi che facevano quando si erano accorti che facevano i pezzi per la V1. E io li ho visti, bellissimi, tutti incartati in carta cellofan, tutto oliato, tutto per bene in scatolette, tutti, sì. Questo, ecco l’unica cosa di sabotaggio che posso dire è questo, altro non saprei. Abbiamo finito? Finito? Alla prossima puntata.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Giovanni Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
Giovanni Delfino was at first evacuated to the Cremona area, where he could see the glow of the distant bombings. He then came back to Milan only to witness a bomb nearly missing his house and killing factory workers. He describes the gruesome sight of undertakers picking up maimed bodies and scattered humans remains: the scene was so shocking that he avoided meat for a while. He recalls wartime episodes: being hurled into a cellar by the blast wave and landing on a pile of sand; stealing pumpkins from a nearby plot and covertly baking them in a ruined house oven; searching for stamps in a bomb crater; the public execution of the actors Osvaldo Valenti and Luisa Ferida; an act of kindness of a German soldier and post-war revenges. He retells his father’s wartime experiences as Resistance runner and Alfa Romeo factory worker: slowing down war-related production; manufacturing V-1 parts destined to Germany, a description of the factory shelter. He mentions his uncle’s wartime experience as tank man, mentioning harsh conditions, a gruesome combat episode in North Africa, surviving torpedoing and being picked up by the Royal Navy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sara Troglio
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-29
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:41:14 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ADelfinoG171029
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Cremona
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Resistance
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/18/1559/LDarbyC1897788v1.1.pdf
fcd4a4bcfdac0e065595002419fce2ec
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Darby, Charlie
C Darby
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Charlie Darby (b. 1924, 1897788 Royal Air Force), his logbook, a poem and two photographs. Sergeant Charlie Darby flew 30 night time and daylight operations in Halifaxes with 466 and 462 Squadrons from RAF Driffield as a rear gunner.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Charlie Darby and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Darby, C
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Charlie Darby’s observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Creator
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Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
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One booklet
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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LDarbyC1897788v1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Belgium--Saint-Vith
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Le Havre
France--Watten
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Jülich
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Koblenz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Netherlands--Oostkapelle
Netherlands--Westkapelle
Germany
Netherlands
France
Belgium
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-24
1944-08-25
1944-09-09
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-09-30
1944-10-15
1944-10-23
1944-10-29
1944-10-30
1944-11-02
1944-11-04
1944-11-16
1944-11-18
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-12-06
1944-12-21
1944-12-26
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Sergeant Charlie Darby, air gunner from 22 January 1944 to 16 January 1945. Charlie Darby was stationed at RAF Castle Kennedy and RAF Driffield where he flew Anson, Wellingtons and Halifaxes Mk 2 and 3. He took part in 30 night and daylight operations over Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands: Saint-Vith, Boulogne, Brest, Calais, Le Havre, Watten, Bochum, Bottrop, Cologne, Düsseldorf, Gelsenkirchen, Hannover, Jülich, Kiel, Koblenz, Ludwigshafen am Rhein, Magdeburg, Münster, Neuss, Oberhausen (Düsseldorf) Sterkrade, Opladen, Osnabrück, Wilhemshaven, Oostkapelle, Westkapelle. His pilots on operations were Flying Officer Evans and Flight Lieutenant Stuart. Operations include V-1 sites and army cooperation, with details on anti-aircraft fire, searchlights and attacks by Me 109 and Me 110
1658 HCU
21 OTU
462 Squadron
466 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Me 109
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Castle Kennedy
RAF Driffield
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Riccall
searchlight
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1564/PBriggsDW1701.1.jpg
0ddb6a37aec4aa568c806c57545b57bd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/1564/ABriggsDW170327.1.mp3
154ae8a60c9fc85e03bb0d4e30404e55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briggs, Donald
Donald W Briggs
D W Briggs
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-27
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Briggs, DW
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with flight engineer Donald Ward Briggs (1924 - 2018), his logbook, memoirs and 16 wartime and post war photographs. He completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying from RAF Upwood. Post war, Donald Briggs retrained as a pilot flying Meteors and Canberras. He eventually joined the V-Force on Valiants and was the co-pilot for the third British hydrogen bomb test at Malden Island in 1957.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Donald Briggs and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PJ: My name is Pete Jones. I’m interviewing Flight Lieutenant Donald Briggs DFC. Other people attending are Sandra Jones, Pete Jones and Ann Kershaw. It is Monday the 27th of March 2017 and we are in Mr Briggs’ home in Freeland, Oxfordshire. Thank you Donald for agreeing to be interviewed for the IBCC. Donald, now tell me about your early years before you joined up Bomber Command.
DB: Right. Thank you Peter. Well, I was brought up in a small village called Lealholm which was about ten miles from Whitby on the north east coast and my parents ran the village post office and general stores and I, I used to help out while I was a teenager and that sort of thing and then I went to, I went to Whitby County School, a good grammar school and I did five years there but I decided that having seen some advertising literature for the air force and apprenticeships at RAF Halton, and so I applied and then I sat the entrance exam and got through all right, and this was as things were building up towards World War Two. And so the Royal Air Force were recruiting ground servicing personnel in pretty large numbers. At this time I was a fifteen year old and so I saw my chance to learn all about aircraft and what, how you put them together and so on and so I applied for the examination as I said. And I joined at Halton on two days after the war was declared. And that was on the 5th of September 1939. And so there is little doubt that the harsh discipline at Halton coupled with excellent theoretical lessons in schools, and the schools were known as Kermode Hall after the well-known Kermode, the aerodynamicist and he used to teach there actually, and many hours filing pieces of metal in workshops. And it turned boys into men and later in the course we worked in teams stripping down and re-assembling many types of aero engines and at the end of the training which was reduced a bit because of being wartime, and there was a great demand for fitters out in the units, in the fighting units. So my first posting was at RAF Finningley which is about ten miles from Doncaster. And I worked there on the engines of Wellington bombers and Hampden bombers and the Rolls Royce Vulture engines in the Avro Manchester and they, they gave a lot of trouble and er, which meant there were several engine changes that I assisted in. And the next posting was to RAF Upper Heyford where I was promoted to corporal at the age of eighteen. Now there I worked on the Wellington Mark 3 with more powerful Hercules engines and after carrying out rectification on an aircraft if an air test was necessary I usually asked if I could accompany the pilot. Which I did on several occasions and after approximately two and a half years I decided that more excitement was needed so I volunteered for air crew. The president of the selection board said that I had passed all the tests to become a pilot, but the waiting list for pilots was pretty lengthy and also there was a little demand, this was mid-1943 and the commanding officer of the board interviewing, the selection board er he, he said, ‘Now look you’re already a technician, a fitter 2E,’ he said, ‘And what we need is flight engineers,’ and so he said, ‘You want to, you’ll be on operations within six months. You do want to fight don’t you?’ And of course I had to say, ‘Yes. Of course I do,’ and that’s how I became a flight engineer, by passing the course at Royal Air Force St Athan in Wales. Now, during this crewing up procedure when I finished my training I was sent to Lindholme near Doncaster. I was fortunate in meeting the captain of the crew that I was to fly with. He was Flying Officer Bill Neal with his crew and they had already completed a tour of operations on Wellingtons. Now Bill explained that they had been selected to join the Pathfinder force and what our duties would entail. Our first step was to convert on to the Halifax Mark 1 because these were ex beaten up old war, operational aircraft that had seen better days, and so we had to train on them and during our training sorties, Bill Neal gave me a potted flying lesson so that the very, very first aircraft I flew was the Halifax. And that flew alright and I got the hang of how to fly straight and level and do gentle turns and so on, but we completed the course of thirty hours and went on to convert on to the Lancaster at RAF Hemswell, north of Lincoln. Or nearer to Gainsborough actually. I did the night conversion on to the Lancaster on my twentieth birthday, would you believe? And after attending a short course to learn the Pathfinder procedures we joined number 156 squadron Pathfinders at RAF Upwood near Peterborough. And as a new crew we had two weeks of training to complete during which time I took on the additional role of bomb aimer. I was taught how to run up on the, set the bomb sight up to start with and, and then how to run up and give corrections to the pilot, running up to the dropping point, aiming point. And we dropped practice bombs at a nearby bombing range which I seemed to get the hang of quite, quite well. And also during this time Bill Neal vacated his seat. There were no dual control Lancasters on squadrons you see, just a single set of controls in the left hand seat for the captain, but he allowed me to fly this superb aircraft, the Lancaster. And on completion of this training we were declared operational and on the 11th of June 1944, we saw that our crew was on the battle order. All a bit, a bit terrifying for a new chap like myself. The target was vast marshalling yards at Tours in the south of France. The Germans were routing most of their reinforcements through here to the Normandy battlefront. Now, on this particular trip we had a couple of night fighter sightings and attacks and Bill Neal being a terrific pilot he corkscrewed and got rid of them. The whole secret was if you had a rear gunner with such good night vision and if he saw the night fighter before he saw you, then you stood a fairly decent chance of getting away without, without disaster. Well, firstly I volunteered for aircrew and I was fully committed now. There was no turning back. Anybody that did turn back were, were called lack of moral fibre and they were, they were given the most terrible mucky jobs that you could ever imagine. And so, but anyway I stuck with it and destiny would decide whether or not I survived. And secondly I was fortunate in joining a very experienced crew and they all made me a welcome addition to the crew. They had not flown previously with a flight engineer because the Wellington didn’t need one and so on. I should explain that in Pathfinder crews the reason the flight engineers took on the extra duty of visual bomb aimer was that the primary bomb aimer operated the H2S radar, and a lot of our targets relied on this for identification and running up and so on. Now 156 Squadron were primarily a blind marker squadron which meant that if no target indicator flares were seen by the master bomber, he would call for blind markers to be dropped and they were reds which is where we came in. And they would be seen cascading and so on, and give an initial aiming point for the main force of bombers running in. The master bomber would then know that the markers were dropped blind and the target had not been visually identified. But on the very first operation we were about to fly we were part of the illuminating force, and we carried twelve rather large hooded parachute flares. And you drop all twelve together and that was like turning the target into a daylight. The visually illuminated target so they were able to, to identify the aiming point, the master bomber. We had a master bomber and his deputy and he had a dicey job. He used to go right down to about four thousand feet and circle around and a very dangerous job. Some of them didn’t make it and were shot down. And on the first ten operations mostly dropping flares, and on — I was mentioning earlier about the run in to the Tours marshalling yards we had two night fighter attacks and we thought actually that — we heard later that these were night fighter pilots that were training down in France so they weren’t sort of fully, fully operational like their counterparts in, up in Germany and Holland and so on. And so it was a great feeling to be safely on the ground back at our Upwood base and I often used to say to my colleagues, my — well between us we’ve said we climbed up that ladder of the Lancaster at the back end where you board the aircraft, not knowing whether we’d ever be in the position to come back, climb down it again on to terra firma so — but happily I did that sixty-two times. Gratefully rather, I survived those to, climb down that ladder again. And I, our crew was sent on Allied support for the ground forces on the Normandy battlefront and we dropped sticks of one thousand pounders, fourteen bombs in a rapid stick of bombs from only four thousand feet. And the aircraft shook very badly with the blast as you’d expect at that height, and we could see the blast rings coming up from other people’s bombs as well. And we also attacked the V1 launch sights in the Pas-de-Calais area. And the, we formation, six Lancasters formatted on a Mosquito aircraft which was equipped with this very accurate blind bombing system called Oboe. They, they used that for, some of the Pathfinder squadrons used it for marking targets as well. So that when his bomb doors opened we opened ours and when we saw the bombs leave his bomb bay we hit our bomb release button and, as you can imagine that was a lot of bombs going down, usually finishing up in rendering the buzz bombs site unusable. And that must have saved a lot of lives in the, around London. And my first German target was Hamburg, and that was our thirteenth op. And it was quite a, quite a dicey town. Very heavily defended of course as always was Hamburg, being a major port and ship building and that. But we came through the barrage unscathed. My skipper always used to say, ‘What you see in the sky is what’s been, the flak bursts and they’re not going to do us any harm. It’s the ones you can’t see that er.’ But anyway, night fighters were of course were in the area, and we saw several bombers going down in flames, and erm, it was a sickening sight and we, er, sort of sympathised with our colleagues and comrades. They would meet their end in a fireball from bombs and fuel when they hit the ground. It was a sickening sight but we made a note of its position and we got on with our own job. And there wasn’t much else you could do. [pause] Bill Neal, my skipper, always said to me, ‘Don,’ he said, ‘when we’ve finished our tour of operations,’ not if but when, he said, ‘I’m going to put you up for commissioning and,’ he said, ‘Then you can join the rest of us in the officer’s mess.’ So I said, ‘Oh well that’s good. Pleased to hear that,’ and sure enough that’s what happened. After I’d done forty operations and about the end of my first tour and I had an interview with Air Vice Marshall, Don Bennett up at Pathfinder headquarters and he was satisfied and so I became Pilot Officer Don Briggs. And erm, so the — I carried on with Bill because he was awarded the DFC because he’d already, that completed two tours of operations having done one before I met him. So what one more tour and of course usually, certainly a skipper got the DFC. And, but I’ll just tell you during a daylight operation to a target called Kleve in October ’44, we had a flak burst right on the port wing tip. And it, we thought it was really the end, you know, because it was that close. And it damaged the aileron quite badly on the port side, but we still had, skipper had control of the aircraft well and with his amazing piloting skill brought us back to a safe landing back at Upwood. But there was substantial damage, the aileron was, was in a terrible mess. And I pressed on in to my second tour with Bill apart from one operation with another crew as their flight engineer had completed his tour of operations. And one of which was with the squadron commander, one of these battlefront operations, and I had the gunnery leader, the squadron leader was — I was on the bomb sight at the front, and he was in the front turret with his legs, and one of his legs was in plaster. He’d, he’d broken a leg or done something, and in plaster, and this was rubbing on my ear as I was trying to aim bombs and he was swivelling around the front turret which normally wasn’t manned at all. And so that was about it. I’m happy to say that despite several very close shaves, I came through sixty two operations unscathed. Lady Luck was certainly on my side. Bill Neal pressed on with another flight engineer and notched up just short of a hundred ops and he was awarded the DSO and he’d already got the DFC. And the French awarded him the Croix de Guerre, and I’m eternally grateful to Bill for getting me through the most dangerous period of my life. He made sure that my operational record was recognised resulting in the award of the DFC in July 1945. I’ve got a few statistics here which are, to save boring everybody, the number of French targets that we did was twenty-four but German targets exceeded that. Thirty-eight we did to German targets. Forty-one of those were night operations and we did twenty-one daylight operations some of which were daylight ops on Ruhr targets in the hell’s, what do they call it? Hell’s valley or something? Happy valley. That was it. And forty-one of those operations we had our own Lancaster which was GT J-Johnny. And so we flew that and of course that meant our own ground crew and we got to know them pretty well. Of those ops we did three raids on oil refineries, because the Germans were desperately short of fuel towards the end of the war and you can’t run a war machine without fuel. And the V1 sights we did, five of those attacks I was telling you about and five on the battlefront and, and then four on marshalling yards. Ruhr targets. Yes ten. We did ten of those and four in daylight, and my last thirty operations were all German targets. Now, it was a massive relief as you can imagine to have survived all those ops and great to be able to enjoy end of second tour leave with my parents and four younger brothers. I’m the eldest of five. So that ended my wartime contribution to the, to the war effort and I, after the war I was selected for Transport Command and flew on Yorks as a flight engineer going out to India and the Far East. And did that for a couple of years and then was posted to the Empire Test Pilot School at Farnborough and I got some valuable experience there. Only the very, very best of pilots were selected and of course we had exchange officers from America, from the United States Air Force and also the US navy. They sent a representative to the, representative to the empire test pilots course. And a lot of those test pilots that I flew with under training they became, you know, top test pilots for the different companies. And so a very interesting three years out, flying Lincolns and things mostly. And after that I was posted to Manby in Lincolnshire where I met an ex-Pathfinder wing commander and he advised me if I wanted to take pilot training, re-train as a pilot, I should write him a letter which I did. And he must have found it fairly satisfactory ‘cause he, he had me to London, to Hornchurch for a selection board and I passed everything there, all the aptitude tests and so on. And very soon in the summer of ’51, late summer, I started training as a pilot at RAF Ternhill in Shropshire and that was — I enjoyed every minute, every minute of that. It was wonderful. And so er, I passed out from there, graduated and awarded those prestigious pilot’s wings that, all RAF pilots remember being presented with their wings. And so I’ll lead on later to describe my, what, what the, what my path through the peacetime air force was. Right. Now. In the August of 1951, I was allowed to start my conversion to retrain as a pilot. And so I promptly, having got furnished accommodation for Edith and we had two children then and, in Louth, and I used to travel across to Ternhill in Shropshire. So the first two weeks of the course naturally was ground school and exams and all the rest of it. And then we started flying, and the aircraft then for training was the Percival Prentice which was a lumbering old thing, but you could do, you could do sort of basic aerobatics with it and so I went solo on that. My instructor sent me off on my own after about four or five hours. Something like that. And then I did sixty hours on the jet, Percival Provost and then I went on to Harvards and that was a wonderful machine to fly. A very big powerful five hundred and fifty horsepower engine in front of you and not easy to see when you’re flowing out for landing. The engine gets in the way, you’ve got to sort of look over the side a little bit. Anyway, I loved flying the Harvard and completed the course and did my final handling test and so on and graduated for my pilot’s wings presented by some air vice marshall and so I’ve still got the photograph. I trained with a lot of chaps that were engineering officers and they were sort of doing a seconded tour in the general duties flying branch just before going back on to engineering. And so from there it was a question of advanced training over at Oakington in Cambridgeshire, and the Meteor was the standard trainer for jet conversion. I had a French instructor of the French Armee de L’air, and George Golee [?]sent me on my first solo in a Meteor Mark 7 and that was enjoyable and went very well. And the, then working my way through the course — the one thing that I didn’t enjoy too much was at night climbing above thirty thousand feet unpressurised and I had a pretty bad attack of the bends. And ask anybody what the, what that’s like and all your joints, it’s the nitrogen that comes out in the joints of your, everywhere knees, ankles the whole lot, so you can only spend a few minutes above thirty. However, and down we came, and the one thing about the Meteor was when you’d been up high everything used to mist up on the inside so you’re sort of rubbing frantically to be able to see out for the landing. However, that was ok and I passed my final handling test with the wing commander, chief instructor and he seemed quite pleased with my performance and he, on landing, after landing offered me the chance of going straight back to Central Flying School to become a flying instructor. Like what we would call in the service creamed off. Creamed off CFS. Now I politely declined and said I was flattered and so on, but I would like to proceed to a Canberra squadron. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Yes, that’s fine just I was giving you the chance, you know.’ So that’s what I did, and I proceeded to Bassingbourn to convert on to Canberras, and in those days there was no dual controlled Canberra. You just had to ride alongside someone on the, what we used to call the rumble seat, and er, see what he did and make a note of the speeds and everything, and then on the second trip he would climb out and look up through the hatch and raise his thumb and say are you happy, and all the rest of it and off I went. Well I think somebody else had control, namely the almighty I think had control of that Canberra on take-off. They er, it was so steep, but anyway. I enjoyed my first, first solo and certainly strange having to fly an aircraft where you’d never handled the controls previously, anyway. And so from there I was posted right up to Lincolnshire to, to join 10 Squadron. We were just forming the first Canberra squadron at Scampton. And we, straightaway I was made a flight commander and in charge of all the servicing and so on, on the eight Canberras. And so we, we got on pretty well and the Canberra’s a wonderful aircraft to fly. Quite light on the controls and plenty of power there and so on. And we did lots of exercises, and I always remember on my first early night flying we were, couldn’t land back at Scampton because of bad weather and we were diverted down in to Cornwall to then St Eval which is just near, just north of Newquay. And the trouble with St Eval is that the runway is up high on the cliffs and you come, you come right in on the approach and this was at night and remember, and I hadn’t flown at night for quite some time and coming in over these cliffs and the runway itself had a great big hump in the middle so you could only see half of it when you touched down. And then happily the final half of the runway came into view as you went over the hump. But I got away with it alright, and so and then of course we spent the night and went back to Scampton the following day. My, my time at Scampton involved quite a lot of diversions. There was once we were diverted up to Kinloss in Scotland. And the Canberra had a fairly good performance for, for the time in the air, endurance as we called it. And so during that time on Canberras my boss was, he was an ex-flight commander over at Binbrook on Canberras, and he was promoted and took over 10 Squadron. And Punch Howard [?] was a great Mosquito night fighter ace and he used to go over these German night fighter airfields and fire off the colours of the day and join in the circuit and shoot down two or three night fighters by doing so. And for this he got the DFC and the DFC and bar as well. And so he set up a formation display team and he gave me a check for my formation flying, and he was happy so I joined his team. And we used to give displays up and down the country and there was one in particular when the National Air Races were on at Coventry airport. And so we gave this display and they gave us a good write up in the flight magazine and also a very congratulatory letter from the president of the Royal Aero Club, which I’ve still got a copy. And so that was, that was my forte if you like on 10 Squadron and from there I, we were actually moved over to East Anglia to, to 3 Group at Honington, RAF Honington near Bury St Edmunds actually. And so I spent about three or four months there before they suddenly came up with a posting and I was to be one of the first pilots to join the new V bomber force on Valiants. The, the courses were starting at RAF Gaydon near Leamington Spa, and so I joined as a co-pilot for Squadron Leader Arthur Steele, who later became air commodore. And so we were posted initially to 138 Squadron at Wittering and Edith was — we actually couldn’t get married quarters, they hadn’t built, they hadn’t finished building them so we lived in an old country hall called Rushington Hall. And so the, it was a wonderful old place, and we had one wing of the place to ourselves and it had a lounge half the size of a hangar. And the boys used to ride around on their tricycles up and down the corridors in this thing, this place. But it was, it was good and then by the time we’d spent three or four months there we were given a married quarter at Wittering and we, there we stayed in that for a good five or six years. Then 138 Squadron was the first squadron to form on Valiants of course but then they were forming a new squadron, 49, 49 Squadron to do the Grapple operation. That was the H bomb trials in the pacific from Christmas Island and our crew, Arthur Steele that is, and myself and the rest of the crew, were selected and in the April, sorry in the March of 1957 we all flew out to Christmas Island via Canada. Goose Bay first and then Edmonton, Alberta and then down to San Francisco where we spent a couple of days, and were able to do some sightseeing and exploring in the good old San Francisco. And then the big leg from there to Honolulu was against headwinds normally and we could work out that providing that the headwinds weren’t greater than sixty knots we were ok. We had enough fuel to get there and a little bit to spare. But and as it happened on the day the winds were lighter than that so we were fine. So it was, Arthur Steele was a good skipper. He used to share the landings with me and if it was my turn come hell or high water I would do it and the one at Honolulu was at Hickam air force base and you come right in over Pearl Harbour on the final approach. So that was, I couldn’t look for very, very long I’m afraid, just a quick glance. And so we had a lovely time and it happened to fall on St Patrick’s Day when we were in and of course there was a big, the Americans celebrate that pretty well and we had, they entertained us very well in the officer’s club. And a couple of days later we flew down the thousand mile leg to the south of Christmas Island. Now, the runway had been built by the army, The Royal Engineers and they’d made a good job of it. It was quite a, not a tremendously long runway, but it was long enough just over two thousand yards. And that’s where we prepared for our H bomb drop. So we saw the first one, Squadron Commander Ken Hubbard he dropped the first and Dave Roberts the flight commander he dropped number two and it was our turn for number three. So we’d all prepared and done the drills and so on, the dropping drills. Now, I want to emphasise that we didn’t drop these H bombs and they went into the sea. They burst at eight thousand feet. So there was no, no fallout like some of the previous tests had done by well, say the Americans perhaps or the Japanese they, well, no the Japanese didn’t have it in those days. However, the, there was no fallout and the, but we took ours, it was on June the 19th ‘57 and the yield wasn’t quite as much as the scientists wanted but it was good enough and they were, the British government were then able to specify, say, Britain now can become the, have the facility of nuclear deterrent. The nuclear fallout, nuclear bomb. And so there was to be a fourth, but that was cancelled and we all came the reverse route and flew home. And flew back to Wittering and so that was, that was Operation Grapple. And so we, we settled down and then I, after that, shortly, short time after that I became a captain on the Valiant and posted back to 138 Squadron. [pause] After completing my tour as a Valiant captain which I enjoyed very much, I used to get trips out to Nairobi and did Salisbury which is now called Harare, I think. And er, Germany. I did several trips there with the Valiant and my co-pilot was an ex-fighter pilot, been stationed in Germany so he was able to show us how to get on there in our leisure time. We then, I was posted to Gaydon, as I said and became a ground school instructor on the Victor mark two. Wonderful aircraft, well built and it had all the then high tech, what was high tech in those days, you wouldn’t call it that now. And I used to teach that, and for doing that they allowed me to do first of all the pressured breathing course, because the Victor two would go up to fifty-two, fifty- three thousand feet and if you had an explosive decompression there you were, you were automatically on pressure breathing to get down to forty thousand as quick as possible. So having completed that which, which, which was a bit rigorous, I was able to do the flight simulator on the Victor two and then fly with the OCU instructors. OCU being Operational Conversion Unit which was at Cottesmore. So I, I enjoyed about six flights from either the captain’s seat or the co-pilot’s seat and enjoyed very much flying the Victor and streaming the great big parachute on landing. And you’d swear that somebody had clamped the brakes hard on when you streamed that, fantastic thing and I was later to come across it of course on the Vulcan. So that was the Victor two. Now, from there I was decided to do the central flying school course at Little Rissington. Near Bourton on the Water that was and so I did the course and qualified and became a flying instructor and was posted to Syerston, which was a flying training school near Newark in Nottinghamshire. And there I, I was checked out by the standards people, and allowed to instruct on the aircraft. And my first bunch of students, there was one of them who was particularly good material and tremendous potential and I could tell the way he was flying I only had to show him something once and he had it off pat, absolutely as good as I could show him. And that gentleman was called Brian Hoskins and he later, in later years joined the Red Arrows. He was a member of the team to start with when they were flying the Gnat and then he became leader, and converted them from the Gnat on to the Hawk which they use now of course. And so he led the Red Arrows for, for a couple of years so I’m rather proud of the fact that I helped train him and taught him his first aerobatics and formation flying, which was pretty essential for being in the Red Arrows as you can imagine. So, anyway I enjoyed my tour and I was promised to have a double tour on instructing on the Jet Provost, and I was just enjoying every minute. However, that was not to be. Because I, because I had previous V bomber experience they posted me up to Finningley, where I was to do the Vulcan course. The Vulcan Mark two and so once, once I was trained and finished the course as a Vulcan captain and I went to, you say, call it solo if you like but strangely enough I had an American colonel for my co-pilot on my first trip in a Vulcan. And first trip as captain anyway and he he’d done a tour in Vietnam had this chap, so a very accomplished pilot. And so after that I had to do a short spell of a year or so in the flight simulator, because having an instructor rating of course you need to establish familiarity and the checklist and emergencies in the flight simulator before they actually did the flying. However, they said, ‘Well don’t get too downhearted about it,’ he said, ‘When you’ve done this short spell in the simulator we’ll groom you for stardom Donald and you’ll be given the flying instructor course on Vulcans.’ And that’s how I became a Vulcan flying instructor initially, and they cut, I had to cut my teeth on some young co-pilots who were converting from the right hand seat to the left hand seat just for, they were from squadrons of course. And it meant that they were fairly flexible and they could, providing their captain could, could fly from the right hand seat they would, they would do that. And so and then I went on to take a whole crew, a full crew. And I trained some fairly senior officers, the odd wing commander that was taking over a squadron or a station, a group captain who would be taking over a Vulcan station and so give them the course and and I had some, I had some nasty experiences at night particularly with training, training co-pilots. And they failed to recognise that in a Vulcan once you allowed the speed to fall the Vulcan was, became a high drag machine and it dropped out of the sky very quickly. And so of course being instructors we could recognise this fairly quickly to take control and save the situation as it were. And I had to do this on more than one occasion. At night particularly. Sorry. [recording paused] After completing my tour on the Vulcan OCU as an instructor, I was given my own crew. And we were posted out to Cyprus on to Number nine squadron and I was to become the squadron QFI and then carry out normal duties of a squadron crew as well. So that was wonderful. Edith and I flew out on a VC10 from Brize Norton and the rest of my crew found their way out there somehow. And one of my crew, his wife played the piano, and I’ll just tell you this. You can have a good laugh. She, they managed to even to fly this piano out to Cyprus on some transport aircraft, a Belfast or something. And so anyway, we settled down and we had a very nice hiring in Limassol itself and that was until a married quarter came up and, which it did. After about three months we moved up on to the base into a very nice married quarter and there I continued my, my tour on the squadron and it was very enjoyable. We were able to — if we weren’t flying in the morning we were free to go at about one o’clock and after lunch we were on the beach taking in the sunshine and the nice, in the lagoons swimming. Swimming by the rocks and so on, in the crystal clear water. It was lovely really. It was like a paid holiday. And so that’s how I finished my air force service. I came out in 1973 and I was given a nice send off in the, in the officers mess, dining in night. And so we, Edith and I we’d bought a Volvo car and I was hoping to get it in duty free, but to get a car in from overseas duty free you’d got to have it over a year and I’d only had this Volvo about six months so I knew I was going to have to pay duty on it. However, we drove home. Got the ferry to Athens and then we drove, various little ferries from a place on the mainland to Corfu. And we spent three nice days in Corfu and then on to Brindisi and we drove up the east coast of Italy to, past Venice and up to almost before you cross the St Bernard’s, St Bernard’s pass. There was no tunnels in those days. And that’s how we got home for a series of ferries and arriving home and we still had our place in Doncaster and we sort of tried to settle down as civilians, which was rather strange because when you become a civilian after thirty-five years of air force service you, you feel you’ve lacked that sort of cushion, that cocoon. You’re cocooned in a, in a sort of safe situation in the services and you’ve got to, you’re out in to the big, big world out there to try and make a living. Well I started off by trying to sell insurance from door to door and I got blown out of many a place and without selling anything. And so that turned out to be a dead loss and we tried looking around for a post office and we found one in York. We actually had bought a property now, a new bungalow in York which was very nice. And we ran this post office for, oh I guess about three or four months, and we were going to buy it from the present owner and he must have fallen foul of the head post master of York because he said that, ‘If you sell that,’ he said, ‘I’ll close it down.’ And so we couldn’t, we couldn’t have that and I settled into an insurance office job which wasn’t very exciting. Now, some member of the family was doing a course at Kidlington Airport near Oxford and he said, ‘Donald, why don’t you get yourself down there and get a commercial licence and they want you as a flying instructor,’ and I did just that. It took me about three months and I finished up as a commercial flying instructor on the Oxford Air Training School. And there I did fourteen years and trained many pilots for the commercial airlines, British Airways included, Aer Lingus, British Midland, Singapore Airlines and many others. And it was very enjoyable and rewarding. The, the ones I didn’t have much joy with were the Algerians. They were a bit of a peculiar lot but, however I retired then after fourteen years and I still went on flying at RAF Halton, where my service life started of course in 1939. So I joined the Microlight Flying Club and they immediately enrolled me as their chief flying instructor so I did a bit more instructing on microlights, and not the weight shift, I wouldn’t fly those. These microlights were proper stick and rudder aircraft and so on. And so I was happy with that, and it just so happened I trained a couple of air marshals. They came through and wanted checking out on microlights so, so I flew with them and a very nice situation. And I went on flying those until I was eighty four and then I thought well I’ve just about had enough. I think I’ll. I’ll give it up now, the flying, and so I haven’t flown since and we are now in 2017. So, so, [laughs] right. However I’ve had a very, very enjoyable flying career and I’ve got a lot, a lot to be thankful for. So that’s the end of my little broadcast. Thank you.
SJ: So did you have any, in all the times you were flying, did you have any lucky mascots or superstitions.
DB: Oh well no, not really. I tend, you tend to sort of get into a habit so that you know if you do something — I can’t give you a quote somehow I can’t sort of think of much that, that would, would do it. But I think you know you make preparations. It doesn’t matter what sort of flight you do you’ve got to prepare for it and otherwise you know if you just go leaping off without checking anything. Now, you see some of the material I could give the people who are coming after this. I’ve got one that the BBC did on me. They came out to Halton and checked. I mean I don’t want to waste time now showing it to you. I could, it only runs for about three minutes anyway but it was on BBC South Today and Geraldine Peers have you, do you remember her?
SJ: Yeah. Know her.
DB: She started, she introduced it and there was Jeremy Stern did the interview.
PJ: You’re quite a celebrity then Donald.
DB: Oh yeah. Well, I was at the time.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: I don’t think many people would remember it but the, and then they edited it and Frank Sinatra, “Come Fly With Me,” you know, it sounds, it sounds quite good and you see me take off in the latest microlight. It was a lovely craft called the Sky Ranger.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And I mean we, my brother Malcolm helped to build it. He did all the instrument layout of that. You’ve flown in that with me haven’t you?
AK: Yes.
DB: No, you flew in -
AK: I flew with my head down.
DB: I’ve forgotten. That was the Thruster we flew in.
AK: Oh right.
DB: I don’t think you ever flew in that Sky Ranger. No.
AK: And never again.
DB: Oh I taught you. I gave you a potted flying lesson Ann.
AK: Yes. For free.
DB: Yeah. All for free. So -
PJ: When you were in the Pathfinders.
DB: Right.
PJ: To get in to the Pathfinders were you told that you were going in the Pathfinders? Were you transferred or did you volunteer because I’m not sure?
DB: No. The way it worked, Peter is that I, like a bunch of other guys that had passed out from St Athan as flight engineers we all had to obviously go on to bombers or transport. Some of them even went on to Sunderland Flying Boats and Coastal Command and so on. However, I, we all went on parade and there was the crews, crews that were going to do the course were six people. There was the pilot, navigator and bomb aimer, the wireless operator and two gunners. Six people. All we were shirt of, short of was a flight engineer. So Bill Neal strode up and down, and I don’t know what it was but he just caught my attention and I sort of nodded and he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Tell me about yourself.’ So I said, he said, ‘Have you done any flying?’ I said, ‘Well yeah a few with air tests, you know, flying in Wellingtons and that sort of thing on air tests but not, not all that many hours,’ but so, and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’re probably just the chap we’re looking for. Do you want to come and fly with us?’ So I said, ‘Well, yeah. Thank you,’ and he said, ‘We’ve all done a tour of ops so experienced crew and he, ‘cause he’d been instructing down at Harwell. There was an OCU at Harwell and Hampstead Norris was their satellite and so on. Bill Neal this was. So anyway and he said, ‘By the way,’ he said, ‘We’re not going to the main force.’ That would have been 1 Group or 3 Group. He said, ‘We’re going to Pathfinders.’ 8 Group and he said, so I said, ‘I don’t know. I’m not the wiser,’ I said, ‘Tell me about it,’ ‘Well,’ he said, and then he went on to describe, you know we, we will be doing this that and the other and helping to mark, find the targets. Good navigator and we did have a good navigator and find targets first and then mark them or help the master bomber to mark them. But when that first crew had done a tour they all left and we got, not all of them, sorry, the two gunners left and the navigator, that’s the first, what we would call the plotter, not the H2S operator, George Hodges, he stayed with us. Johnny Carrod, the radio, the wireless operator, he stayed, and so we had to find two gunners and a new navigator. Now, the gunners we were lucky, because there was a guy called Eric Chamberlain and he had hawk eyes. He could see in the dark this guy. He could honestly. His night vision was amazing. He could, he would see the night fighter before the night fighter saw us. And then, but the Canadian, the navigator was a Canadian flight sergeant and he was thrown in at the deep end. He had no operational experience at all and the first, he got us lost on the first trip! And I had to get them out, Bill Neal thrust a map in my hands and I said, I said, ‘I’m not,’ it was at night I said, ‘I’m not ruddy good at map reading,’ [laughs] But it so happened that we were running up on the, what they called the Frisian islands, the Dutch islands and there was one in particular that I recognised that was the shape on the map. And I was able to give him a pinpoint on that and actually the target was up in Northern Denmark. Well it was German occupied of course as you know but, and that’s how he, but he improved and he wasn’t bad, you know later on. His name was Archer, and I can never remember his first name but he was a young Canadian. Yeah.
PJ: Did you stay in touch with the crew after the war? Any of your crew members?
DB: Just, just Bill Neal I’m afraid. Johnny Carrod died fairly young and his house was burgled and he lost his DFC. That was stolen. And you know you can buy the odd whatever it is like theatre replica or something.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: But -
PJ: No.
DB: It’s not the same as the original. I was going to get mine to show you.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And [coughs] excuse me. But George Hodges, he, he, er, I spoke to him on the phone but I never actually saw him because he never attended our reunions did George so, and that was it really. I lost touch with all of them really.
PJ: Did you -
DB: Except Bill Neal.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Bill Neal and I met at the Hendon museum. At the RAF Museum at Hendon and we had a full day touring around. Pictures taken near that Lancaster which says, “No enemy aircraft -
PJ: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Shall penetrate German airspace.”
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Old Goering you see.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And we had our pictures taken with that.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And all the hundred odd bombs on the side, you know, painted on.
PJ: Is it, is it a fallacy you all, that the whole crew stuck together and when you went out you all went together to the pub? Is that - ?
DB: More or less oh -
PJ: A fallacy? Because -
DB: Somewhere I’ve got a picture of my first car which was a little Austin seven tourer and I bought that from a Canadian who was finished his ops and was off back to Canada. And I bought that car for thirty-five quid and it was a tiny little two seater really but people used to sort of get, we had the whole crew on that [laughs]. Can you imagine the springs [laughs].
PJ: Brilliant.
DB: And to start it all you had was just a blade. You could start it with a screwdriver.
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And I had the keys in my pocket and I parked outside the pub and when I went outside it was gone. Somebody had stolen it and they’d obviously had a blade of some sort, a knife maybe and just turned the thing and started the engine and away and they stole it. But it was found abandoned up near the airfield, near Upwood main gates or somewhere. Rotten devils.
SJ: You said that the red markers were blind markers. They had green markers as well.
DB: Oh yes.
SJ: What were green markers for?
DB: Yeah. The green markers were what we called backers up and we dropped some of those but you dropped them on mixed reds and greens. Mixed reds and greens were dropped by the master bomber and the primary visual marker. And they actually had identified the target visually by this time but TIs didn’t last forever. They needed backing up you see and so we, we were able to back them up by dropping just the greens on their own. Now 156 were basically a blind marker squadron so if that master bomber had got to the target but he wasn’t happy with the actual identifying the aiming point, he would call for blind marking. And this is where George Hodges on his H2S would drop the reds, red TIs. But when I was down the front on the bomb sight if mixed reds and greens were going down then I would go click, click, click, click and deselect the markers and just drop HE. We became really like main force and I would just, just drop the bombs on, on the markers that were already, but that was, that was what the three things and they called this a Parramatta. Bennett had his own various names for the -
PJ: Yeah.
DB: And the, we even had sky markers. Where the, if the, if the target was obscured by a thin layer of cloud or something like that they used to drop what they called sky marker flares. They would go off more or less the same or just a couple of thousand feet below the height of the bomber stream but there was one thing about an air, an air, a sky marker and that is if that’s the target and let’s say this is the blind marker, you had to bomb on an exact heading because if you didn’t, if you came in on a heading like that, and you dropped there you would, you might have this in your sights but the bombs would fall over that side, over there. So you had to be, you had to run in on an actual precise heading when you bombed on sky markers. And that was another thing that, but we only had to drop them a couple of times that I can remember. George Hodges having to drop sky markers. But they had, I know that Bennett, he went around his office and he said something about, he was asking various people what they would call a certain attack you see. I think the Parramatta one that he decided was by a New Zealander. It sounded a little bit New Zealandish that. And there was another one. What was the other one? That — he asked this young WAAF clerk, and she gave him a name and that’s what he called, what was it? That was the overall sort of marking plan. I can’t remember the name. It’s so long ago now but yeah that’s that was what Bennett did. And he used to come around and visit you know after, not every, but he used to get around a lot of the bomber stations and he came to Upwood to the debriefing, he was there for debriefing. And he always used to ask you, you know, ‘Who dropped the bombs?’ And, ‘Did you see the target?’ And did you do this, that and the other? And I used to try and give him the best idea that, that I could. He was always quite approachable you know. Bennett. And then another night he’d be down at Graveley, you see, debriefing them from 35 Squadron and all these other path — Oakington was a Pathfinder station you see. Little Staughton, that was another one, and as I say I’ve got a list of them upstairs. Can you think of anything else?
SJ: No I think you’ve covered it.
DB: Have I?
PJ: Yeah.
DB: Well I hope I haven’t bored you stiff and just before you go come and look at this big picture I was telling you about and you’re welcome to come out.
PJ: Anyway, Donald.
DB: Sorry.
PJ: On behalf of the IBCC -
DB: Yes.
PJ: I’d like to thank you for allowing us to interview you. Thank you.
DB: Alright. Right. Right. Ok. Did you want, have you recorded that?
PJ: Yes.
DB: Oh.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Briggs
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Briggs was born in Lealholm near Whitby in Yorkshire. After school, he became an apprentice with the Royal Air Force. He trained at RAF Halton in 1939 and became an engine fitter working on Wellingtons and Manchesters. He volunteered for air crew in 1943, qualified as a flight engineer and completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders at RAF Upwood. After the war he retrained as a pilot and took part in the H bomb tests at Christmas Island. Later he became a flying instructor and trained aircrew to fly Vulcans. After he retired from the Royal Air Force he became a commercial flying instructor. He continued to instruct and fly microlights until he was eighty-four years of age.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pete Jones
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Format
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01:08:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABriggsDW170327
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-27
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
France
Germany
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Christmas Island
United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1943
1944
1945
1957-06-19
156 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Harvard
Lancaster
Lincoln
Manchester
Master Bomber
Meteor
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
pilot
promotion
RAF Halton
RAF Upwood
target indicator
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/151/1580/PGildersleveG1601.1.jpg
962e75a62a1d0544811bf754c89d96c6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/151/1580/AGildersleveG160905.1.mp3
92b3c008a57715600343bf1fbef3cd7c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gildersleve, Gladys
G Gildersleve
Paul Gildersleve
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. The collections consists of one oral history interview and two photographs all related to Gladys Gildersleve (b. 1924; 2030715 Royal Air Force). She began her training as a Women’s Auxiliary Air Force member at RAF Morecambe. Her first posting was to barrage balloons at Swansea Docks. Gladys eventually re-mustered as an instrument checker and was based at a number of bases including RAF Shenington. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Paul and Gladys Gildersleve and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-05
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gildersleve
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PJ: My name is Pete Jones. I am interviewing Gladys Gildersleve who was in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force. Other people attending are Sandra Jones and her son Paul Gildersleve. It is the 5th of September 2016 and we are in Gladys’ home in Middleton Cheney, Oxfordshire. Thank you Gladys for agreeing to be interviewed for the IBCC. Gladys, tell me about your early years.
GG: Ok. It starts off before the war. I worked in a firm called GC Laboratories and two or three girls got together and said, ‘How about we go and join up?’ One girl wanted me to go in to the Land Army and I said ‘no because I didn’t like the smells.’ I couldn’t stand the smell. So the other girl said, ‘Well I’m going in the WAAF,’ and I said, ‘That sounds like a good idea,’ so we do that and we go to the place to join up. Take your particulars down. ‘You’re fine. You’ll hear from us, go back to work.’ A letter comes. You can’t go because your firm won’t release you. So that was upsetting. A few weeks later the letter came, ‘They’ve changed their minds. You can go.’ So we went up to this place in Edgeware and signed all the forms. They told us when to go, what to do, went back home, packed up, said goodbye to everybody, to work, home, went back ‘Oh it’s the wrong day. Sorry. You have to go home and come back again tomorrow.’ So tomorrow came and we did go and we got taken up to Bridgnorth where we had to collect all our gear, everything I had, coat, they provided underwear, stockings and shoes, everything and then we were joined by the side of a big open land and the mess site was across the other side and this big sergeant said, ‘Once you’ve got your stuff go across to the mess, get something to eat.’ So that’s what we did. We went across and then he shouted at us to ‘Stop!’ That we were walking on hallowed ground apparently. It was the parade ground and we didn’t know it was hallowed and we stood there frozen and then he shouted off, ‘Don’t you dare walk on that again. If I catch you you’ll be on a charge.’ That means we have got to pay.’ And he said ‘You’ve gone so far, carry on.’ Well would you go around if somebody said go across? Anyway, we got something to eat and we did walk all the way back to our billet. The next morning we got sent to Morecambe and it was August ‘42 and the holidaymakers there were having a whale of a time. They lined up along the promenade every morning and I realised why. To watch us learning to march and do our drill and this first day we were marching along and a women touched my arm, she said, ‘The others have gone the other way.’ They’d turned around and gone back and we didn’t hear and we were just [laughs] and I said, ‘Oh we’d better turn around,’ so we turned. The sergeant never came up to us and shouted. And then the next day it was gas capes and you had to fold them right. If you did you pulled the cord and it just dropped down over you but if you didn’t fold it right it didn’t come down and there’s two young girls, silly little things they were, they didn’t fold it right, they had an arm here, it was around their legs, of course we were all having hysterics instead, and we were supposed to be marching at the same time. Then we had to put the gas mask on, the big ones with the big pipe, everyone was blowing raspberries out the side and we’re laughing. The holidaymakers had a whale of a time. They must have, you know, you wouldn’t have known there was a war on at all and we had no lectures, nothing. So we didn’t know what it was all about. We thought it was a laugh you know and we really enjoyed it. And then we had all our injections and everything else and then we got told where we were going to go and you couldn’t choose. Well you could tell her what you wanted to do but they took no notice and they said me and this other girl we were going to be on the balloons. So they sent us to Swansea docks and we, our billet was between Swansea docks and Cardiff docks and the railway run right by the side of our billet so if they decided to bomb there we’d be right in the middle and it was on this great big expanse of land, all black tarmac and black fence up there, not a light to be seen and we got there about mid-day and somebody who’d been allocated as a cook or something was cooking lunch and the sergeant said, ‘Eat your lunch,’ she said, ‘And then we’ll sort out who is going to go on guard.’ She said to us, ‘You two can go two till four. So I thought oh we’d better hurry up and eat our lunch. ‘Not this afternoon,’ she said, ‘It’s tonight.’ The middle of the night. ‘Ooh. I can’t go out in in the middle, never been out in the middle of the night before.’ She said, ‘Well you’ve got to go. You’ve got to do it.’ So we went out and it was pitch black. You couldn’t see a thing. We had a little torch and it just shone a light. We huddled up in a corner and then we saw a light coming across, it was just going across, moving all over the place so we run and hid. We didn’t know we had to challenge them. So we were hiding and it was coming nearer and nearer then this woman called out, ‘Where’s the guard?’ ‘Oh my God, it’s the duty officer.’ This great big tall Italian officer as she bellowed at us. [laugh] ‘Where were you?’ ‘Well we were hiding.’ She said, ‘That’s not what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to challenge me.’ Well we didn’t know. We weren’t told. We were just told to go on guard. So, she let us off because it was our first time and then we had to look after the phone and every so often they would ring the phone and say, ‘Check the tension on the cable,’ so this night we went and I climbed up the winch, in the winch to check and I kept saying, ‘There’s nothing on it. It doesn’t say anything. It can’t be right’. So she come and had a look. No. It still said no pressure on it. So we said, ‘Well we’d better have a look at the balloon,’ and it wasn’t there. It had gone and I said, ‘Well somebody’s got to phone and tell them that the balloon’s gone,’ so she lost the toss so she had to tell them. And they said, ‘Never mind dear. We’ve lost a lot tonight. They’ll send a new one tomorrow.’ So the next day we had to pump this balloon up [laugh] and then they decided they’d finished with the balloons. Then I was allocated as an instrument repairer and went to Melksham. It was like being at school ‘cause you sat on long benches and there was all instruments there in pieces and you’d got to learn what the pieces were and where they went and you had exams at the end of each week and you could move up a class. One class two or class two then class one. I got a one at the end so that wasn’t too bad and then we got sent, I came up here to Edgehill from there. There sometime and then another place [unclear] Great Horwood, oh lots of villages all around here, everywhere around here and then we got moved on somewhere else and when the war finished they said we can all go home so we got on our bikes, rode up to Banbury, never got any money so you didn’t have a ticket so you all climbed on the train coming up to London and at one point they put the guard out on the platform, he managed to get back on, and just walked through saying, ‘Behind. Behind. The one behind had got the tickets,’ and you run then we got back and then you got the feeling they’d finished with you. They didn’t know what to do with you. Surplus to requirements. So we got shifted all over the country. We went up to Rutland, Chester and all places like that. As they started to demob you had to go by initial and it took a year for me to get demobbed and they sent you around and you just keep going, you might spend two weeks in one place, just get to know people and you move on and as one lot were moving out they were then moving the next lot in. Then you might end up when you got back and eventually you got out. You had to go to Birmingham then and then we were told we had to send all our gear back. Couldn’t keep anything of it. Your shoes, tights, the skirts, the tops, everything and yet the men got a suit given them for nothing. And that suit they could keep. All they wanted, we felt they wanted to get rid of us. And then we used to have fun when we were on the planes. We had to get in and check the, all their instruments, make sure they were working properly and check their oxygen. Make sure they were all full of oxygen and their bombsight, you had to check that to make sure it was accurate so they would hit the target. Nine times out of ten they didn’t of course and they always said it was our fault. Never pilot error. It was always our fault but it couldn’t be our fault because you wouldn’t dream of signing the book to say you’ve done it unless you’d done it right. But we used to have fun. The men thought it was fun. We were in there working away. Somebody would take the ladder away so you can’t get out. It’s too far to jump down so you wait till they let you out. Another time they started towing the plane. They towed the plane all the way on the other side while we’re still in it so we had to walk all the way back and our bikes weren’t there, they were on top of a Nissen hut so you had to get someone to get it down off the Nissen hut. There was four sections, A B C and D. We was in D over on that side. We had a Nissen hut for us, and the electricians and another group of people, I can’t quite remember who they were and right behind our billet was a five bar gate. You opened that gate in a country lane and it led right into the village of Shenington, [?] house, a big house on the corner and it was full of airmen and WAAF. She used to do jam sandwiches. She cooked breakfast. Where she got it all from we don’t know but we used to nip down there for a bite or one person would go and fetch the lot back and it was great. We had lots of fun, you know. I think that’s about as much as I can remember. Just going from place to place after that until it was time to come home. So whether or not that’ll satisfy you or not I don’t know. If it’s quite, not quite what you wanted to hear.
SJ: How did your parents react when —
GG: Not bothered. They weren’t bothered [laugh]
SJ: No.
GG: No. But when I read out, my twin sister oh she was a brrr, I told her what I was going to do and I said don’t tell anybody but when I got back everybody knew. ‘We know what you’ve done’ [laugh] and I felt as if I was guilty that I could’ve done it without telling anybody. No. They weren’t bothered.
SJ: No.
GG: But no, but it was good.
SJ: So did you have any superstitions or any lucky mascots?
GG: No. No. They weren’t, it was a training airfield. It wasn’t a combat area.
PJ: Operational.
GG: They were just training them but they sent them off on little bombing missions to, you know to learn what they’re doing.
PJ: Yeah.
GG: Because these cocky youngsters come in, think they’ve got smart uniform and got their wings on their shirt and they'd think they were so good and yet some of them were useless. So, but every time a plane came in we had to go out and check it all and if there was anything wrong with the — one of the instruments we used to have to take it out and take it down to our main office where there were people there that would either repair them or give us a new one to put in, so it was all backwards and forwards and there were so many things you forget what you did because it’s all in the back of your mind, it’s gone, and it’s just all the silly things you did. More the fun. It was hard at times and you were at a loose end. There wasn’t anything to do. Especially if you’re in these little towns and nothing going on and just used to get on with each other and make your own fun.
SJ: What did you do in the evenings then?
GG: Well that was just it. There was nothing to do so we’d either sit and chat in our billets or when we had the NAAFI you could go in there because it had reading rooms, games rooms, all sorts. Separate rooms that you could go and sit over there and there was always tea and coffee on the go, you’d help yourself. But they had, they had some shows come and if it was terrible they would all shout out, ‘More.’ You know, they want more but usually it was terrible. [laugh] But when the NAAFI place was built they used to have big bands come and have dances there and that was good. But Saturday nights well you see, we used to go down to Tysoe village and meet up with the soldiers from Cardington. They’d come across, meet in the Castle Pub, have a drink, then all go across to the village hall to a dance. That sort of thing. That was only once a week so the other times there wasn’t really a lot to do especially if you were in one of these out of the way places like down Swansea docks. We never went off the site. There was nowhere to go because you know it was all just bare ground. But we used to get lifts, when we were at Melksham we used to get a lift on anything that was going in to Southampton or somewhere like that. It could be a funeral car, a fire engine, a lorry. Whatever was going and they would stop and give you a lift, there were no buses or anything. And that’s about it. I don’t remember much more.
SJ: So how long were you in?
GG: Four years altogether.
SJ: Yeah.
GG: Eighteen when I went out and twenty two when I came out. I joined in the August ’42 and the war ended in August and I came out in August ’46. So everything was August. The thing is it took a year after the war before I could get demobbed and there was others behind me. My letter was H so you can imagine how many behind me there must have been. So, I don’t know if they did they same for the men or not. Whether they took them by alphabet but they did us but you got the feeling all the time they didn’t know what to do with you. They were trying to get rid of you. Each place you went they were trying to get rid of you as quick as they could, you know. Move you on. ‘Cause there was nothing for us to do. They were gradually taking down all the planes. They were coming out of use and there wasn’t really anything for us to do. It got a bit boring towards the end. You had to make your own fun you know or die of boredom, you know.
SJ: Yeah.
PJ: Yeah. The air balloons then. Were they filled with gas?
GG: The what?
PJ: You know the balloons then. Were they filled—
GG: Yeah.
PJ: With gas or —
GG: No it was a sort of air stuff. You had to pump stuff in to it.
PJ: Yeah.
GG: I don’t know quite what it was. Sometimes it came on a lorry already done which was a better way for us, but we still just had to still connect it to all the gadgets on the ground all the hooks and things. I had my thumb dislocated one time because the wind blows it and you can see the shape of my thumb now. That’s my war wound. Now I’ve got arthritis in that. Had to go to a medical place to have it seen to and they’d had no training these girls. They’d just gone into the Medical Corps and she strapped it up in a sort of elastic bandage so after two weeks it had to come off. Instead of cutting it as you should do she pulled it bit by bit, dislocated it again. So then she had to fetch the MO then. Panic. And he said, ‘These girls have had no training, disgusting. No training. Nothing.’ So he did it but did a different sort of bandage. He said, ‘When it’s time to come off I’ll see to it for you.’ So he did. You just cut down a strip. I kept saying, ‘You’re pulling it out. I can feel it going.’ So now as you see it’s bulging there and it’s twisted. I could claim damages I suppose [laughs] I’ve left it a bit late I think. [laughs]
PJ: Have you stayed in touch with any of your former colleagues or —
GG: No —
PJ: Over the years.
GG: We all went separate ways. I mean the girl I started off with on the balloons I didn’t see her again until I was moving on waiting to be demobbed and I — but by then she’d got her own group of friends there and you can’t just walk in then and that’s how it seemed to be. Depending on your initial you see. The girl I joined up with, I never ever saw her again. I don’t know where she went. [unclear] So really I was on my own right from the start. You get to know somebody and with them for quite some time and then they suddenly move you and you all go in different directions. Even though you’re doing the same job they send you to different places. One we— where was it, Sealand in Chester special [?] for the RAF and then the Poles came there. They, they even printed their own coupons and selling them. They got caught of course. But the way they ate, they used their fingers. They didn’t use knives and forks. So there was a lot of complaining and they moved them into their own section of the place then, oh put me right off them. Perhaps I shouldn’t have been saying that but [laughs] but when you get to my age you don’t care. If it’s there you’ve got to say it. And that’s about it I think. I can’t think of anything else unless you’ve got questions to ask.
SJ: What did you do when you came out of —
GG: I went back to my old job.
SJ: the WAAF.
GG: I went back to my old job. Because it was a reserved occupation they had to keep my job for me, but I changed my job before. I was making little sort of little anode, a piece of metal and you had to put it on a machine [unclear] flange each end that was part, I don’t know what it was part of but it was all —so I went into the office. Taught myself to type. That sort of thing. So I did better then. They had to give me a job so I got this job and I stayed there till I left to have the children and that was it. So that was very lucky really. Yeah. Yeah.
SJ: Anything that you want –
PG: Didn’t you keep in touch with a friend that used to send you Christmas cards or something every year?
GG: Oh I used to, oh Mabel. That’s right. She left — her boyfriend came home early when the war finished and they let her leave to go home to get married. I used to write her Christmas and birthdays. Then one year the card came back ‘unable to deliver’ and I never ever found out what that meant. I never heard from her again. I can’t understand — it sounds a funny thing to say. Could say gone away or something like that but unable to deliver. It sounds strange. That was up in Yorkshire. Then I thought oh perhaps they’d pulled these places down where she lived and she’s gone somewhere else but then her daughter knew me because she’d come to stay with me. I thought well if something happened she could have, she could have let me know. So often now it comes to me I wonder what did happen to her ‘cause I couldn’t understand the unable to deliver. And I checked the address, double-checked and it was the right address and everything, so what it meant I don’t know. So but that’s the only person that I did keep in touch with. I don’t know what happened to the others. Shame really because you get to know people and suddenly they’re gone but, there we are. Not to worry. Too late to worry isn’t it?
SJ: Did you have any experience of bombings?
GG: Pardon.
SJ: Did you have any experience of bombings —
GG: No.
SJ: Where you were stationed?
GG: No. Not in any of them. I think we might have been too far off their map where they wanted to bomb. Here it would be quite some way in. Away from London and the big things. I mean, we were an open target. Sometimes the Lancasters used to come in when they’d been on a raid suddenly they would come in so we would be loaded with Wellington bombers, Lancasters and everything. Yet you’d never see a plane. You used to stand and watch them go, the Lancasters go out on a trip. Count them going out then you’d count them coming back in you know and this horrible feeling of oh you know there’s quite a lot missing, but none of it got bombed around here. Amazing. Don’t well [?] understand it. None of the stations I went to really had anything. So really we didn’t know there was a war on. Some places they never had any, anything at all. So there we are.
PG: Didn’t you have an experience with a V1?
GG: Oh no that was when I came home on leave. Yeah. I came home on leave and I was standing on the corner of the road waiting for my bus. Got as far as Ealing Common waiting for my bus and this thing went over and suddenly it stopped. I didn’t know what it was and the people at the bus stop, they all run. Where they have gone? Somebody come out, ‘Quick. Quick in here.’ I said, ‘Why? What’s up?’ ‘You don’t know where that’s going to land.’ And all of a sudden boom! I thought oh my goodness me whatever is it? She said that’s a V1. A V1 bomber. I’d never heard anything like, had nothing at all down here, you know. It was a bit of a shock. While I was home I could hear a plane so I opened up the bedroom window hanging my head out and there was all Anderson shelters in the garden and this one plane came and he was shooting at every one as he went, you could hear the bullets going. My mother, ‘Shut the window.’ ‘Why? I’m watching the plane.’ And I thought then what miserable rotten devils to go, just to shoot, it would only be women and children in them and all they did going along and shooting at them which I thought was terrible. I mean where I lived we had more bombing than they had around here. Amazed at — and of course a lot of farmers, I think this house where we got all our food stuff they must have had their own farm where they picked their own food, made their own jam, that sort of thing. That’s how they would have been able to do it otherwise I don’t know how they would have got the coupons to get food, but all these airmen, I mean there were masses of us there and sometimes the place would be bulging at the seams with everybody that was in there, and I don’t expect that even one of them should be there. If there was an inspection there’d have been trouble.
SJ: Where was that again?
GG: That was up here. Edgehill. Or Shenington as they called it. They make out they don’t know what you mean when you say Edgehill because it’s Shenington [unclear] you know. I have to try and remember that it’s Shenington. But no just an old couple, a mother and daughter. They did very well. Everybody was very thankful that they were there, otherwise you couldn’t go off in to the mess just when you wanted to. You could only, when it was your lunchtime. That sort of thing. Some of the food was alright and some wasn’t alright [laughs] but there was always the NAAFI to buy somethings so you didn’t worry. We got by. Yes. Yeah.
SJ: Any other stories you can tell us?
GG: Not really, that I can think of [laughs].
PJ: How long were you working on the planes then? What period of time?
GG: Well, when did the balloons finish? I think they finished about ’43 I think. They weren’t long. Weren’t there all that long cause that’s the only place I went to, the balloons. No. So it would have been from then ’43 till ’46 when I came out? Two or three years. Three years in all.
SJ: When you said they lost some balloons –
GG: Yeah.
SJ: Did they just escape?
GG: Oh yes. It’s such a tension on it that the cable snaps and it just goes. A funny thing, I saw something on the telly the other day. A film about the V1 and it’s coming along, zooming along, and it cuts right through a balloon, and the balloon floats — Oh I said, ‘that must be my one.’ [laughs] Now my daughter’s just got a job working at a place and the name of the thing is printed on a balloon. You can see it flying in the town and she tells this manager at her first interview, ‘My mum lost a balloon during the war.’ He said, ‘I hope it doesn’t run in the family.’ [laugh] I said, ‘Fancy telling him.’ They all know about them. I’ve told them all these stories to the children, the grandchildren — and I have a laugh myself sometimes. I can see the funny side of it you know, and the youngsters today they wouldn’t believe that this old lady went doing these sort of things you know. Things that — never ask for a late pass. You’d just go out and when we came back from dances we used to ride our bikes halfway down, pick them put them on our shoulder, walk on the grass behind the guardroom and then get on again the other end and carry on cycling. That would be about midnight. We weren’t even supposed to be out. But [laugh] I think they must have known. They couldn’t possibly not know could they? That happened every week we used to do that, but as I say you remember all the fun bits and all the bad, boring bits are just gone. Just wiped from my mind. It was over seventy years ago. Seventy four years since I joined up. My God. How am I still here? [laugh] I don’t know many of us are left but people are living longer these days aren’t they? Yeah.
PG: Didn’t you have some friends, some girls who did parachute packing?
GG: Oh one girl, yes they all — one girl was a parachute packer and she volunteered to test her one out that she’d packed. Oh my God she was brave. She went up and she did do a jump with it. How lucky it opened up. [laugh] It could have been a disaster. I don’t think I could have done that. That was a responsibility wasn’t it? To do, to do that up. Well ours was just as bad. If our instruments were wrong, our altimeters and things like that they could have been up the creek but, it was like the bombsight because you have to lay down. It was like a thick Perspex there and a light on it and you got elongated cross. You’d got to make sure that lined up exactly otherwise they’d miss their target which they did anyway so I mean, so it didn’t matter but at least we knew it was right before they went so they couldn’t blame us. No. And then there’s — what was that they had on the wing? They called it a pitot-head. Comes out and it’s a long sort of tube thing. I can’t remember what that’s for but you had to make sure that it heated up alright so whether that was to help with frost on the wings or not I’m not sure.
PJ: No.
GG: I can’t remember now. No. I can’t think of anything else now. My brain’s wearing out or mine’s everyone’s tired it’s having a bit of a rest [laugh] is that good bad or indifferent? Is that what you wanted?
PJ: Well thank you Gladys for agreeing to be interviewed by the IBCC. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gladys Gildersleve
Creator
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Pete Jones
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-05
Format
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00:28:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGildersleveG160905
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
England--Lancashire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Gladys Gildersleve was working for a laboratory when she decided to join the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force. She began her training at RAF Bridgenorth and at RAF Morecambe. Her first posting was to barrage balloons at Swansea Docks. She eventually re-mustered as an instrument checker and was based at a number of stations including RAF Shenington near Edgehill. She experienced a V-1 bomb when at home on leave. She also recounts an aircraft that strafed near her home.
demobilisation
ground personnel
military living conditions
military service conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
RAF Melksham
RAF Morecambe
RAF Shenington
strafing
V-1
V-weapon
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/168/2224/SRutherfordRL146342v1.2.pdf
31f3fffa8b158091d3eea3fd06b57b91
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rutherford, Les
R L Rutherford
Robert Leslie Rutherford
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. The collection contains four oral history interviews with bomb aimer Robert Leslie "Les" Rutherford (1918 - 2019, 146263 Royal Air Force), his prisoner of war diary, material about entertainment in the Stalag Luft 3 Belaria compound and a photograph. Les Rutherford served as a despatch rider in the army, he was evacuated from Dunkirk and volunteered to transfer to the RAF. He became a bomb aimer with 50 Squadron and completed 24 operations. He was shot down over Germany on 20th December 1943 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Les Rutherford and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-09
2015-10-05
2015-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rutherford, RL
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[front cover]
[picture of a red maple leaf]
A WARTIME LOG
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
R. L. Rutherford.
P.O.W. 3276
Captured 20.12.43
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
A WARTIME LOG
A REMEMBRANCE FROM HOME THROUGH THE CANADIAN Y.M.C.A.
[underlined] F/O R.L. RUTHERFORD. R.A.F. 146342 P.O.W. 3276 [/underlined]
Published by
THE WAR PRISONERS’ AID OF THE Y.M.C.A.
37 Quai Wilson
GENEVA - SWITZERLAND
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
CONTENTS
[underlined] PAGE [/underlined]
1 SAGEN CREST BY SELF
3 ALL TALK-NO FLY “ “
5 P/O PRUNE “ “
7 I WANTED WINGS “ “
9 LANCASTER “ “
11 SPITFIRE “ “
13 HALIFAX “ “
15 WELLINGTON “ “
17 GOON UP “ “
19 KITCHEN TROUBLE “ “
21 TUNNELLING “ “
23 GERMAN FILM ACTRESS “ A. E.ADAMS
27 BOMBER COMMAND “ SELF
29 MUSTANG 1. “ M. WILSON
31 CANNY TOON “ SELF
33 KRIEGIE VISION BY BOB HAMILTON
35 KRIEGIE’S ON THE LOOSE? “ D. CODD
37 NO REST FOR THE DEVIL “ T. HUGHES
39 ESCAPE “ SELF
41 COTTAGE NEAR DORCHESTER “ J. RUSSELL
43 IN MEMORIAM “ SELF
45 SQUADRON CREST “ “
47 THE CAMP “ J. RILEY
49 SWING IT “ SELF
53 WATER COLOUR “ D ATTWOOD
PAGE
55 PRISONER OF WAR BY SELF.
58 LUCKENWALDE “ REV BENNETT
60 CAPTAIN OH MY CAPTAIN - GLAN EVANS
63 ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS. J.D.HILL
65 PORTRAIT “ KAWALERSKI
67 CARICATURE “ A.L. ROSS.
97 HEBREWS 13X8 J. REID V.C.
110 DIARY
106 SBO’S LETTER TO RUSSIANS
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[row of leaves] 1 [row of leaves]
[hand drawn picture of the Sagan crest]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
3
[hand drawn picture of the Stalag Luft 111 Belaria crest]
[underlined] RLR 9/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
5
[hand drawn picture of a prisoner of war, P/O Prune}
By Les. Rutherford.8/44
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
7
[hand drawn picture of Donald Duck in flying gear behind a barred window.]
[underlined] I WANTED WINGS
RLR 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
9
_ _ _ _ OUT OF THE NIGHT _ _ _ _ _
[hand drawn picture of a Lancaster bomber]
[underlined] LANCASTER
RLR 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
11
_ _ _ INTO THE SUN _ _ _ _ _
[hand drawn picture of a Spitfire]
[underlined] SPITFIRE
RLR 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
13
[hand drawn picture of a Halifax bomber]
[underlined] HALIFAX RLR 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
15
[hand drawn picture of a Wellington bomber]
[underlined] WELLINGTON] RLR 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
16
[underlined] GOON :- [/underlined] was the P.O.W. slang for a German. Some of the guards used to walk round the camp looking for trouble - trying to catch P.O.Ws. doing things they shouldn’t i.e. making tunnels, forging passports, listening to radio etc.etc.
[page break]
17
[hand drawn picture of a P.O.W. at an open window holding a piece of wood with a nail in it, whilst a prison guard lies on the floor below him.
[underlined] GOON UP!!
RLR 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
18
[underlined] The Kitchen [/underlined] was a small room at the end of each hut containing a stove and a washing - up sink. Each room was allowed two periods of half - an - hour each day to be shared with another room. In other words room 18 shared with our room (17) and we cooked our grub at 11.30 - 1200 and 6.30 - 7.00 PM each day normally the stove was always rather crowded especially when we made to have 18 to a room instead of [underlined] 12. [/underlined]
[page break]
19
[hand drawn picture of a P.O.W. at a very overused stove}
[underlined] KITCHEN TROUBLE
RLR {/underlined] 8/44
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
21
[hand drawn picture of a prison guard walking in the rain whilst under his feet a prisoner is tunnelling.
[underlined RLR [/underlined] 8/44
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
23
[hand drawn picture of a German actress]
WINNIE MARKUS
A GERMAN FILM ACTRESS
[underlined] A E Adams [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
27
[underlined] BOMBER COMMAND [/underlined]
[Various R.A.F. sketches around the poem “Lie In the dark and listen” by Noel Coward.]
Lie in the dark and listen,
It's clear tonight so they're flying high
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps
Riding the icy, moonlight sky
Men, machinery, bombs and maps
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece lined boots
Bones and muscles and minds and hearts
English saplings with English roots
Deep in the earth they've left behind
Lie in the dark and let them go
Lie in the dark and listen…..
Lie in the dark and listen
They're going over in waves and waves
High above villages, hills and streams
Country churches and little graves
And little citizens worried dreams
Very soon they'll have reached the sea
And far below them will lie the bays
And cliffs and sands where they used to be
Taken for summer holidays
Lie in the dark and let them go
Their’s is a world you’ll never know
Lie in the dark and listen…..
Lie in the dark and listen
City magnates and steel contractors
Factory workers and politicians
Soft hysterical little actors
Ballet dancers, reserved musicians
Safe in your warm civilian beds
Count your profits and count your sheep
Life is passing above your heads
Just turn over and try to sleep
Lie in the dark and let them go
Theirs is a debt you’ll forever owe
Lie in the dark and listen….
Noel Coward
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
29
[hand drawn picture of a Mustang aircraft]
[underlined] MUSTANG 1 [/underlined]
With best wishes to R.L.R.
[underlined] from Maurice Wilson [/underlined]
11 AUG 44
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
31
[hand drawn Newcastle coat of arms]
[underlined] CANNY TOON [/underlined]
[hand drawn picture of the Tyne bridge in Newcastle]
NEW TYNE BRIDGE. NEWCASTLE - ON - TYNE
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
33
[hand drawn picture of a young lady in a seductive pose]
All the best Ginger - Bob Hamilton
Bilaria [sic] 1944
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
35
[had drawn picture of two bloodhounds on a leash]
[underlined] KRIEGIES ON THE LOOSE? [/underlined]
All the luck & keep those guitar strings twanging! [underlined] David A Codd 8/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
37
[hand drawn sketch of two men with one recklessly clearing a table of pots while the other has a speech bubble saying “CLEAR THE TABLE GINGER”]
[underlined] NO REST FOR THE DEVIL [/underlined]
Best of luck Ginger.
Tommy Hughes
Belaria
Aug 1944.
[page break]
[blank page]
39
[underlined] ESCAPE [/underlined]
[drawing of a lookout tower]
[drawing of a lorry]
IF YOU CAN LEAVE THE COMPOUND UNDETECTED AND CLEAR YOUR TRACKS NOR [sic] LEAVE THE SLIGHTEST TRACE AND FOLLOW OUT THE PROGRAMME YOU’VE SELECTED NOR LOSE YOUR GRASP OF DISTANCE, TIME AND PLACE…
[drawing of train carriages]
IF YOU CAN WALK AT NIGHT BY COMPASS BEARING AND RIDE THE RAILWAYS IN THE LIGHT OF DAY AND TEMPER YOUR ELUSIVENESS WITH DARING TRUSTING THAT SOMETIMES BLUFF WILL FIND A WAY…
[drawing of an escape attempt]
IF YOU CAN SWALLOW SUDDEN SOUR FRUSTRATION AND GAZE UNMOVED AT FAILURE’S UGLY SHAPE REMEMBER AS FURTHER INSPIRATION IT WAS AND IS YOUR DUTY TO ESCAPE…
[drawing of a German officer]
IF YOU CAN KEEP THE GREAT GESTAPO GUESSING WITH EXPLANATIONS ONLY PARTLY TRUE AND LEAVE THEM IN THEIR HEART OF HEARTS CONFESSING THEY DIDN’T GET THE WHOLE TRUTH OUT OF YOU…
[drawing of a prison cell]
IF YOU CAN USE YOUR “COOLER” [SIC] FORTNIGHT CLEARLY FOR PLANNING METHODS WISER THAN BEFORE AND TREAT YOUR FIRST CALCULATIONS MERELY AS HINTS LET FALL BY FATE TO TEACH YOU MORE…
[drawing of a sign pointing to England]
IF YOU SCHEME ON WITH PATIENCE AND PRECISION IT WASN’T IN A DAY THEY BUILDED [sic] AND MAKE ESCAPE YOUR SINGLE SOLE AMBITION [underlined] THE NEXT TIME YOU ATTEMPT IT YOU’LL GET HOME. [/underlined]
COMPOSED BY: - FLIGHT LIEUTENANT E. GORDON BRETTEL R.A.F. WHILST IN DETENTION AT GROS HARTSMANNDORF THIS OFFICER WAS ONE OF THE 52 RAF OFFICERS WHO LOST THEIR LIVES AFTER ESCAPING FROM STALAG-LUFT III (SAGAN) IN APRIL 1944.
[underlined] RLR [/underlined]
[underlined] 9/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
41
[hand drawn picture of a thatched cottage by a stream with a man with bicycle looking on]
Cottage near Dorchester
Best wishes Les - Jim Russell.
[page break]
42
DESIGNED BY R. L. RUTHERFORD.
IN MEMORY OF THE R.A.F. OFFICERS WHO WERE SHOT AFTER ESCAPING FROM NORTH COMPOUND, STALAG LUFT 111, SAGAN, ON MARCH 24 1944. 4 OTHERS WERE KILLED LATER.
[page break]
43
[an elaborately decorated, colourful page including the R.A.F. crest]
ihs
He giveth them wings that they might fly on high and breathe a purer air.
St Francis
In Memoriam
BERKLAND P/O CAN — BRETEL E.G. F/L ENG — BULL L.G. F/L ENG — BUSHEL R.J. S/L ENG — CASEY M.J. F/L ENG — CATANACH J. S/L AUS — CHRISTENSEN P/O N.Z. — COCHRAN D.H. P/O ENG — CROSS T.H.D. S/L ENG — ESPELICH H P/O NOR — EVANS B. P/O WELSH — FUGLESANG P/O NOR — GOUWS LT. S. A. — GRISMAN F/L WELSH — GINN A. P/O SCOTS — MADE A.M. P/O AUS — MAYTER M. F/L ENG — HUMPHRIES P/O CAN — KIERATH R.V. F/O AUS — KIRWNARSKI F/O POL — KIRBY-GREEN S/L ENG — KOLANDOSKI F/O POL — LANGFORD F/L CAN HALL C. P. LEIGH T.B. P/O ENG — Mc FARR C. LT. S.A. — Mc TILL G. P/L CAN — MARCINKAS F/L LITH — MILFORD H. P/O ENG — MONDSHEIN J. P/O POL — PICARD H. P/O BEL. — POKE P.P.J. P/O MAORI — SHEIDHAVER P/O FR — SKOMSYIKAS P/O GR — SWAN C.D. F/L ENG — STEVENS R. L.T. S.A. — STOWERS G. F/O ARG — STEWART C. P/O ENG — STREET O. F/O ENG — VALENTA E. F/L CZECH — WALENN G. F/O ENG — WILEY G. F/O ENG — WERNHAM J. F/O CAN — WILLIAMS S/L AUS — WILLIAMS J. F/O ENG
[underlined] RLR 10/44 [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
45
[hand drawn picture of R.A.F. 50 squadron crest]
[underlined] RLR [/underlined] 1944
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
47
“THE CAMP”
[hand drawn picture of the P.O.W. camp]
“All the Best Kid - Hoping this does not revive to many bad memories J. W. REILLY. 11/11/44
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
49
[hand drawn sketch of a couple dancing with music notes around them]
SWING IT
TO LEN WHITELEY AND HIS BELARIA ORCHESTRA
50
[sketch]
[page break]
[missing pages]
53
[hand drawn coloured drawing of coast road with church in the background]
D. Attwood
[page break]
55
[underlined] Prisoner of War [/underlined]
IT IS A MELANCHOLY STATE. YOU ARE IN THE POWER OF YOUR ENEMIES. YOU OWE YOUR LIFE TO HIS HUMANITY, YOUR DAILY BREAD TO HIS COMPASSION. YOU MUST OBEY HIS ORDERS, AWAIT HIS PLEASURES, POSSESS YOUR SOUL IN PATIENCE. THE DAYS ARE LONG, HOURS CRAWL BY LIKE PARALYTIC CENTIPEDES. MOREOVER, THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE OF PRISON, EVEN THE BEST AND MOST REGULATE OF PRISONS, IS ODIOUS. COMPANIONS QUARREL ABOUT NOTHING AT ALL AND GET THE LEAST POSSIBLE ENJOYMENT FROM
[page break]
54
EACH OTHER’S COMPANY. YOU FEEL A CONSTANT HUMILIATION AT BEING FENCED IN BY RAILINGS AND WIRE, WATCHED BY ARMED GUARDS AND WEBBED BY A TRIANGLE OF REGULATIONS AND RESTRICTIONS.
WINSTON CHURCHILL
Written by Winston Churchill while P.O.W. in Boer hands during Boer War.
[Page break]]
[Missing pages]
58
[underlined] LUCKENWALDE [/underlined]
WERE EDGAR ALLEN POE ALIVE TO SEE THAT GRUESOME PLACE
WERE [sic] NOUGHT BUT EVIL VERMIN THRIVE
AND BREED AT FEARFUL PACE.
THEN EDGAR WOULD, WITH AWFULL [sic] SKILL
DESCRIBE THE FILTH THAT HAUNTS ME STILL
[underlined]
THE SORDID REEK AND STENCH THAT SEEPS
INTO ONES VERY SOUL
THE LOATHSOME BUGS THAT NIGHTLY CREEP.
FROM EVERY LITTLE HOLE
‘NEATH EDGARS PEN AND EDGARS BRAIN
WOULD COME TO LIFE AND LIVE AGAIN
[underlined]
THE SORDID REEK AND STENCH THAT SEEPS
INTO ONES VERY SOUL
THE LOATHSOME BUGS THAT NIGHTLY CREEP.
FROM EVERY LITTLE HOLE
‘NEATH EDGARS PEN AND EDGARS BRAIN
WOULD COME TO LIFE AND LIVE AGAIN
[underlined]
[underlined] AG LANG. [/underlined]
AND YET MUSIC THRIVED. THANKS FOR THE GIT’ GEN GINGER. KEEP JUMPING WHERE EVER YOU ARE. ALL THE BEST
[underlined] REX. [inserted] musical note [/inserted] BENNETT [/underlined]
[page break]
59
[transferred ink from page 58]
[page break]
60
[underlined] WITH APOLOGIES TO WALT WHITMAN AND OF COURSE [/underlined] R. RIPLEY.
OH CAPTAIN, OH MY CAPTAIN OUR FEARFUL TRIP IS DONE,
WE’VE STALLED AND DIVED, TURNED AND CLIMBED,
BUT I THINK THE FLAK HAS WON.
THEY’VE HIT US LEFT AND CENTRE,
AND I THINK YOU’LL SEE OUR PLIGHT
IF WE KEEP ON FLYING LONGER, THEY’LL HIT US IN THE RIGHT
THE PORT ENGINE’S BURNING BRIGHTLY,
THE STARBOARD’S POPPING LOUD,
THE TAILPLANE LOOKS LIKE FALLING OFF,
AND WE’RE DOWN BELOW THE CLOUD.
THERE ARE SEARCHLIGHTS ALL AROUND US,
FLAK, BOTH FRONT AND REAR,
AND EVEN WHEN THEY MISS US
THEY’RE STILL TOO BLOODY NEAR.
TWO FIGHTERS COMING AT US,
ONE ON EITHER BEAM.
AND IF THIS IS NOT A NIGHTMARE,
IT’S A BLOODY AWFUL DREAM!
By D. R. Greig
[inserted] All the best Ginger Glam Evans. F. A. [indecipherable letters] Luckenwalde March 30 th ’45 [/inserted]
[page break]
61
[blank page]
62
[blank page]
63
[sketch of a prisoner of war pulling a sledge in the snow]
“Onward Christian Soldier – The March, Jan. 1945”
James [indecipherable word] – Luckenswalde – March. ‘45
76
[double underlined] THE BAND [/underlined]
[underlined] LEADER [/underlined] - - - [underlined] F/O LEN WHITELEY [/underlined]
[double underlined] DANCE AND THEATRE ORCHESTRA [/underlined]
[underlined] 1ST TRUMPET F/O L. WHITELEY [/underlined] [underlined 1ST ALTO SAX. F/O R. RYDER [/underlined
[underlined] 2ND “ F/O MCPHERSON [/underlined] [underlined] 2ND “ “ F/O J. HUNT [/underlined]
[underlined] 3RD “ F/O W. GROGAN [/underlined] [underlined] 1ST TENOR SAX F/O J. MOSS [/underlined]
[underlined] 4TH “ F/O SMITH [/underlined] [underlined] 2ND “ “ F/LT P. VALLIANCE [/underlined]
[underlined] 1ST GUITAR F/O R.L. RUTHERFORD [/underlined] [underlined] BASS. F/LT H. HANLON [/underlined]
[underlined] 2ND GUITAR W/O A.E. ADAMS. [/underlined] [underlined] PIANO F/LT D. CODD [/underlined]
[underlined] DRUMS J. JAGGER. [/underlined]
[double underlined] CLASSICAL ORCHESTRA [/underlined]
[underlined] 1ST VIOLINN [sic] F/O P. PADDOCK [/underlined] [underlined] 1ST CLARINET F/L D. MILMINE [/underlined]
[underlined] 2ND “ F/O E. DOBIE. [/underlined] [underlined] 2ND “ F/O J. MOSS. [/underlined]
[underlined] 3RD “ F/L J. BATTLE [/underlined] [underlined] CELLO F/L J. HILL [/underlined]
[underlined] 4TH “ F/O R. RYDER [/underlined] [underlined] FLUTE F/O G MACCRAE. [/underlined]
[underlined] 5TH “ F/LT. J. HALL [/underlined] [underlined] BASS F/L H. HANLON [/underlined]
[underlined] TRUMPET F/O L. WHITELEY [/underlined] [underlined] PIANO F/L D. CODD [/underlined]
[double underlined] SWING OCTETTE [/underlined]
[underlined] TRUMPET F/O LEN WHITELEY [/underlined] [underlined] PIANO F/L J. HILL [/underlined]
[underlined] CLARINET F/O REG RYDER [/underlined] [underlined] TENOR SAX F/O J. MOSS [/underlined]
[underlined] GUITARS F/O R.L. RUTHERFORD [/underlined] [underlined] & [/underlined] [underlined] W/O A.E ADAMS [/underlined]
[underlined] BASS F/L H. HANLON [/underlined] [underlined] DRUMS F/O J. JAGGER [/underlined]
[double underlined] TANGO SECTION [/underlined]
[underlined] ACCORDION. F/O REG RYDER [/underlined] [underlined] TENOR SAX. F/O J. MOSS [/underlined]
[underlined] GUITARS. F/O R.L. RUTHERFORD [/underlined] & [underlined] W/O A.E. ADAMS [/underlined]
[underlined] BASS. F/L H. HANLON [/underlined] [underlined] DRUMS F/O J. JAGGER. [/underlined]
[page break]
77
[double underlined] THE THEATRE. [/underlined]
[diagram showing theatre layout]
[underlined] ENTERTAINMENTS OFFICER [/underlined] [underlined] WING COMMANDER W.B. MEHARG. [/underlined]
[underlined] SETS DESIGNED BY [/underlined] [underlined] F/O D. BLACK AND F/O F. ALLEN. [/underlined]
[underlined] SETS BUILT BY [/underlined] [underlined] F/0 T.W.E. HUGHES AND [blank] [/underlined]
[underlined] LIGHTING BY [/underlined] [underlined] S/L DESTERIDGE [/underlined]
[underlined] MUSICAL DIRECTOR [/underlined] [underlined] F/O L. WHITELEY [/underlined]
[underlined] MAKE-UP BY [/underlined] [underlined] F/LT. C. BUCKLEY. [/underlined]
[line]
[underlined] MARCH. 24TH [/underlined] [underlined] PRODUCTIONS [/underlined]
[underlined] “SPRINGTIME FOR HENRY” [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY [/underlined] [underlined] F/O P. JACOBS AND W/O LAWRENCE [/underlined]
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O P. JACOBS. [/underlined] [underlined] F/O J. FREEMANTLE [/underlined]
[underlined] W/O W. LAWRENCE [/underlined] [underlined] F/O R. ENGLAND. [/underlined]
[5 lines]
[underlined] 27TH MARCH. 44. [/underlined] [double underlined] “ROPE” [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCER [/underlined] [underlined] F/L J. HALL. [/underlined]
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] F/L J. HALL. [/underlined] [underlined] S/L PESTERIDGE [/underlined]
[underlined] W/O LEES. [/underlined] [underlined] F/L P. VALLIANCE [/underlined]
[underlined] D. BLACK. [/underlined] [line]
[7 lines]
[underlined] 2ND MAY. [/underlined] [double underlined] “HAYFEVER” [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY :- [/underlined] - - - - - - [underlined] W/O. LAWRENCE. [/underlined]
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] B. KENNEDY [/underlined] [underlined] S/L PESTERIDGE [/underlined]
[underlined] F/L G. SPROATES [/underlined] [underlined] J. FREEMANTLE. [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O P. CORYTON. [/underlined] [underlined] LT. T. MAYS.
[underlined] S/L ANDERSON [/underlined] [underlined] F/O J. JAGGER [/underlined]
[underlined] W/O H. THORNE [/underlined]
[page break]
78
[underlined] 24TH MAY [/underlined] [underlined] ARSENIC AND OLD LACE [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY [/underlined] [underlined] F/L J. HALL.
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] F/L C. BUCKLEY [/underlined] [underlined] F/L NICHOLSON [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O P. DAULBY [/underlined] [underlined] S/L BELL [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O J. RUSSELL [/underlined] [underlined] S/L HUGHES. [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O S. GRAHAM [/underlined] [underlined] F/O J. LAUNDER [/underlined]
[2 lines]
[2 lines]
[underlined] 12TH JUNE [/underlined] [double underlined] REVUE [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY [/underlined] [underlined] F/L J. HILL. [/underlined]
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] S/L ANDERSON. [/underlined] [underlined] F/O B. KENNEDDY. [sic] [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O WHITELEY [/underlined] [underlined] F/O R. RYDER [/underlined]
[underlined] W/O WAINWRIGHT [/underlined] [underlined] F/L C. BUCKLEY. [/underlined]
[underlined] W/O T. LAWRENCE [/underlined] [underlined] F/O J. FREEMANTLE. [/underlined]
[underlined] F/L D. BLACK. [/underlined] AND [underlined] F/L A. LONGILLE. [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O C. PITCHFORD [/underlined] CHORUS [underlined] W/O R WAGSTAFFE. [/underlined]
[underlined] 28TH AUGUST [/underlined] [double underlined] SOMEONE AT THE DOOR [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY :- [/underlined] [underlined] F/O. P JACOBS. & W/O T. LAWRENCE [/underlined]
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O P. JACOBS. [/underlined] [underlined] F/O T. GRIFFITHS [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O P. DAULBY [/underlined] [underlined] F/L C. BUCKLEY [/underlined]
[underlined] T. LAWRENCE [/underlined] [underlined] W/O RYDER [/underlined]
[line]
[underlined] 11TH SEPTEMBER [/underlined] [double underlined] BAND SHOW [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY :- [/underlined] [underlined] LEN WHITELEY. [/underlined]
[underlined] WITH [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O P. JACOBS. [/underlined] [underlined] F/O J. ROSS [/underlined] [underlined] W/O R. WAGSTAFFE [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O J KENNEDY [/underlined] [underlined] F/O R. RYDER [/underlined] [underlined] F/L A. LONGILLE. [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O A. DARLOW. [/underlined] [underlined] F/O L. WHITELEY. [/underlined] [blank line]
[underlined] 3RD OCTOBER [/underlined] [double underlined] FRENCH WITHOUT TEARS. [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY:- [/underlined] [blank line]
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
[underlined] F/O J. FREEMANTLE [/underlined] [underlined] S/L ANDERSON [/underlined]
[underlined] S/L J. PESTERIDGE [/underlined] [underlined] F/O J. LAUNDER [/underlined]
[underlined] F/L J. AYR [/underlined] [blank line]
[2 blank lines]
[double underlined] MAJOR BARBARA [/underlined]
[underlined] PRODUCED BY:- [/underlined] [underlined] F/L P. VALLIANCE [/underlined]
[blank line] [underlined] 21ST OCTOBER [/underlined] [blank line]
[3 blank lines]
[3 blank lines]
[page break]
79
[underlined] RECORDS [/underlined]
[page divided into two columns]
[first column] [underlined] HEARD [/underlined]
RECORD SESSION. BY HARRY JAMES.
PRINCE CHARMING. BY HARRY JAMES.
ANVIL CHORUS BY GLENN MILLER.
YES INDEED “ TOMMY DORSEY.
STRING OF PEARLS “ GLENN MILLER.
THE WORLD IS WAITING “ GOODMAN QUARTETTE
AFTER YOU’VE GONE “ BENNY GOODMAN
WHY DON’T YOU DO RIGHT “ BENNY GOODMAN
STORY OF A STARRY NIGHT “ GLENN MILLER
[second column] [underlined] RECOMMENDED [/underlined]
LOVE ME OR LEAVE ME BY GOODMAN [deleted] QUARTETTE [/deleted]
ST LOUIS BLUES. BY GLENN MILLER
MOONLIGHT SONATA BY GLENN MILLER
ROYAL GARDEN BLUES “ GOODMAN [deleted] QUAR [/deleted] SEXTETTE
JAZZ ME BLUES “ KRUPA’S ALL STAR BAND
TRUMPET CONCERTO “ HARRY JAMES
SLIPHORN JIVE “ GLENN MILLER
CLARINET CONCERTO “ ARTIE SHAW
BENNY RIDES AGAIN “ GOODMAN ORCHESTRA
SMO-O-O-TH ONE “ GOODMAN SEXTETTE
THINGS AREN’T WHAT “ JOHNNY HODGES
WHERE OR WHEN “ GOODMAN 6 WITH PEGGY LEE.
SUNNY SIDE OF THE STREET “ LIONEL HAMPTON
YOU’R’E [sic] BLASÈ [sic] “ SUNNY DUNHAM
LET’S DO IT. “ GOODMAN WITH PEGGY LEE
IF I HAD YOU “ GOODMAN SEXTETTE
[page divided into 4 columns]
[underlined] THE THEATRE (CTD.) [/underlined]
[across first and second columns] THE ASTONISHED OSTRICH
PRODUCED BY F/O P. JACOBS & W/O LAWRENCE
[underlined] CAST [/underlined]
F/O T. GRIFFITHS F/O B. KENNEDY
W/O T. LAWRENCE F/O J. NORMANDALE
F/O J. FREEMANTLE.
[line]
GEORGE AND MARGARET.
[line]
MR. CORN COMES TO TOWN
[line]
THE FIRST MRS FRASER
[line]
[underlined] DEC 26TH [/underlined] FANFARE.
[line]
TONY DRAWS A HORSE
[line]
[across third and fourth columns] [underlined] FILMS. [/underlined]
DIXIE DUGAN
80
[underlined]RED CROSS PARCELS CONTENTS[/underlined]
[underlined]BRITISH[/underlined]
1 tin CORNED BEEF 1/2Lb
1 tin MEAT GALANTINE
1 tin POWDERED EGG EQUIVALENT 2 EGGS
1 tin NESTLES CONDENSED MILK
1 TIN MARGARINE 1/4Lb
1 PKT SUGAR 1/2Lb
1 BAR CHOCOLATE 1/4Lb
1 tin BISCUITS
1 tin PROCESSED CHEESE 2ozs
1 tin COCOA
1 tin SALMON
1 tin JAM
1 PKT TEA 2ozs
[underlined]CANADIAN[/underlined]
1 TIN POWDERED MILK
1 tin SPAM
1 tin CORNED BEEF 1/2Lb
1 tin [deleted]BUTTER[/deleted]JAM 1/2Lb
1 PKT COFFEE
1 PKT SUGAR 1/2Lb
1 tin SALMON
1 tin SARDINES
1 tin BUTTER 1/2Lb
1 PKT BISCUITS
1 PKT CHOCOLATE 1/4Lb
1 PKT CHEESE 2ozs
[underlined]AMERICAN[/underlined]
1 tin POWDERED MILK
1 tin CORNED BEEF 1/2Lb
1 tin MEAT PATÉ
1 tin MARGARINE 1/2Lb
1 PKT BISCUITS
1 tin JAM 1/4Lb
1 PKT CHEESE 1/2Lb
1 tin SPAM
1 tin SALMON
1 tin SOLUBLE COFFEE
1 PKT SUGAR 1/2Lb
1 BAR CHOCOLATE 1/4Lb
60 CIGARETTES
[underlined]NEW ZEALAND[/underlined]
1 tin CONDENSED MILK
1 tin HONEY
1 PKT PEAS
1 PKT SUGAR 1/2Lb
1 tin CHEESE 1/2Lb
1 tin CORNED BEEF.
1 tin BUTTER 1/2Lb
1 tin JAM 1/2Lb
1 tin CAFÉ-AU-LAIT
1 PKT TEA. 1/4Lb
1 BAR CHOCOLATE 1/4Lb
[underlined]GERMAN RATIONS FOR 1 WEEK[/underlined]
1/4Lb SUGAR
2ozs JAM
2ozs CHEESE
2ozs MEAT
1oz. SAUSAGE
POTATOES
VEGETABLES
1/4LB BARLEY
1/4Lb MARGARINE
1 1/5 LVS. BREAD
[page break]
81
[underlined]TYPICAL P.O.W. RECIPES: SWEETS.[/underlined]
[underlined]CAKE[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
4 tins ENGLISH BISCUITS
1 tin 1/2Lb MARGARINE
1 tin EGG POWDER
5 TABLESPOONS SUGAR
SALT
Crush BISCUITS to a fine powder and place into a bowl. MELT MARGARINE and mix into flour adding SUGAR and a pinch of SALT. MIX the powdered egg and add to mixture. KNEAD thoroughly Line baking tin [deleted]and[/deleted] with greased paper and place mixture INSIDE BAKE in a moderate OVEN for 25-30 mins. RAISINS may be included in mixture if required. When cool, ICE with a mixture of 1 BAR CHOCOLATE and 1 TABLESPOON MARGARINE WHICH has been melted to a smooth paste.
[underlined]PANCAKES[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
1 PKT CANADIAN BISCUITS
1 tin POWDERED EGG.
MILK.
Crush BISCUITS to a fine powder and place into a bowl. ADD MILK [deleted]and mix[/deleted] gradually, stirring until you have a fine paste. MIX EGG and add to mixture. Place a little cooking fat in a frying pan and melt. Pour in 3 Tablespoons of mixture. FRY UNTIL Golden brown. ENOUGH FOR 20 PANCAKES.
[underlined]FRIED BISCUITS[/underlined]
Place Canadian biscuits (one biscuit per man0 into a bowl of water and soak for 10-11 hours. WHen[sic] thoroughly SOAKED slice[deleted]d[/deleted] biscuits and spread inside with jam. Place in a well greased tin and bake in moderate oven for 20 mins. Serve with milk sauce. The biscuits can also be fried individually as for PANCAKES.
[underlined]BREAD PUDDING[/underlined]
There are many varieties of this dish but the following is most common:- GRATE GERMAN BREAD into crumbs and place into a bowl. Melt 1/2 of MARGARINE and add to crumbs. ADD 1/2 PKT RAISINS or Prunes (or both) and 2 or 3 tablespoons SUGAR. Mix thoroughly. IF MIXTURE is still too dry add MILK. Place into a grease tin and bake for 25-20 mins in a a moderate oven. SERVE with MILK SAUCE.
82
[underlined]TYPICAL P.O.W. RECIPES: SPREADS.[/underlined]
[underlined]CHEESE SPREAD[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
1 PKT AMERICAN CHEESE
1/4Lb MARGARINE
MILK
CUT Cheese into small pieces and place into saucepan with a small amount of milk. Heat until cheese is melted. then[sic] add MARGARINE. STIR continuously until mixture is nicely smooth. Add more milk making mixture fairly liquid. Empty into a tin to cool and set. IF tomatoes are available skin about 4 or 5 and add to mixture before adding MARGARINE.
[underlined]MEAT SPREAD[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
1 tin Rose Mill Pate.
1 tin MEAT GALANTINE.
1 CHOPPED ONION.
1 TABLESPOON MARGARINE
CHOP the PATÉ and GALANTINE into small pieces and place together with ONIONS and MARGARINE INTO SAUCE PAN. HEAT UNTIL a think paste is made. Stirring continuously. PLACE INTO A Tin to cool or serve hot as required.
[underlined]PRUNE SPREAD[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
BOILED PRUNES
SUGAR
MILK.
Stone PRUNES AND PLACE INTO A SAUCEPAN. ADD Sugar and a little MILK. IF ORANGE POWDER IS AVAILABLE THIS MAY BE ADDED TOO. BOIL FOR ABOUT 10 MINUTES THEN LEAVE TO COOL.
[page break]
83
[underlined]TYPICAL P.O.W. RECIPES.[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
POTATOES
CORNED BEEF
BOIL and Mash the potatoes. Add 3 tablespoons of POWDERED MILK and a little MARGARINE. TURN INTO A Greased baking dish and mould into shape of a box. Shred the corned beef and mix with a little milk tomatoes may be added if available. Place meat with potatoes and bake in a moderate oven until potatoes are golden brown.
[underlined]HOT-POT[/underlined]
INGREDIENTS:-
POTATOES
MEAT (SPAM or CORNED BEEF
Cut the meat into small pieces and lay in the bottom of a baking tin. Peel potatoes and slice into thin Fritters and lay over the meat. Poor in enough water to cover the meat and place on top of stove unit water boils then place in oven for about 30 mins until potatoes are browned.
84
[underlined] Menu for Christmas Dinner
Belaria 1944
Room 17 Block 15. [/underlined]
[missing] inserted menu is missing [/missing]
[page break]
[two missing pages]
87
[double underlined] Christmas Day Belaria 1944. [/double underlined]
For some two or three months before Christmas food was laid aside so that on Christmas day we could have a day of reasonably good meals. Unfortunately on November 17 the Germans ordered that all food stores must be liquidated and so we were given three days to eat our existing store. They allowed us however to keep a large Red Cross box (Container for 8 ordinary Red Cross parcels) in the Vorlager, to be drawn out 1 week before Christmas. The issue 51 Christmas parcels (American) came on 23RD DEC. and a list of contents the [sic] recipes for the cakes and puddings, and menu for the day follows.
[double underlined] American Christmas Parcel [/double underlined]
[underlined] Issue:- 2/3 of Parcel per Man
Contents [/underlined]
1 Tin Christmas Pudding 16oz
1 Pkt Dates 16oz
50 Cigarettes
1 Tin Turkey 14 oz
1 Tin Cherries 9 oz
1 Pkt Playing Cards
1 Tin Vienna Sausages 4oz
1 Tin Salted Nuts 7oz
1 Game (Chess, Checkers, etc.)
1 Tin Chopped Ham 4ox
1 Tin Mixed Sweets 12oz
1 Face Cloth.
1 Tin Cheese 4oz
4 Pkts Chewing Gum
1 Tin Jam 6oz
1 Pkt Tea 1 1/2 oz
2 Fruit Bars
1 Tin Honey 8oz.
12 Soup Cubes
1 Pipe + 2oz Tobacco
1 Tin Butter 4oz.
[double underlined] Recipes [/double underlined]
[underlined] Christmas Cake
Ingredients:- [/underlined]
10 Pkts American Biscuits
1/2 Loaf German Bread
1 Lb Sugar
1/2 Lb Turkish Fruit
1/2 Lb Prunes
1 Lb Raisins
Nuts from Prune Stones
Milk : Salt
1/2 Lb Margarine
[underlined] Directions: [/underlined]
CRUSH the biscuits into a fine flour and grate up the bread. Place into mixing bowl. Melt the margarine and add to flour. Mix thoroughly. Add the sugar, fruit, and raisins. The prunes should be boiled beforehand, chopped and stoned. The stones should then be cracked and the nut taken from inside. These should be chopped and added to the cake mixture. Add a pinch of salt and if the mixture is too dry, add milk. Mix thoroughly. Grease two large baking tins of equal size and turn mixture into them. Bake in a moderate oven for 1 hour – 1 1/2 hours. Make an icing by melting down 1/4 chocolate and 1/2 tablespoon of margarine, and a little water. Ice one of the cakes with this icing and when almost set, place the other cake on top. Make a white icing by taking 1/2 sugar, and enough very thick klim to cover the cake. Mix up into a very thick paste and boil for a short while. (2-3 minutes) Lay the icing smoothly over the cake.
WEIGHT approx 12-14 lbs.
[page break]
88
[underlined] Christmas Pudding
Ingredients:- [/underlined]
10 Pkts American Biscuits
1 Loaf German Bread
1 Lb Sugar
1/2 Lb Margarine
1 Lb Raisins
1/2 Lb Prunes
Salt : Klim.
[underlined] Directions:- [/underlined]
Crush the biscuits and grate up the loaf and place in mixing bowl. Melt down margarine and add to flour. Add sugar and mix well. Boil the prunes and stone and chop finely. Add Raisins and Prunes and a 1/2 teaspoon of salt. If mixture is too dry add fairly thick Klim. Mix thoroughly. Grease 4 bowls and turn mixture into these. Cover with cloth and boil for 4 1/2 – 5 hours.
[underlined] Angel Cakes
Ingredients:- [/underlined]
4 Pkts American Biscuits
1/4 Lb Margarine
1/4 Lb Sugar
Salt : Klim
[underlined] Directions:- [/underlined]
Crush the biscuits down to a fine flour and place in mixing bowl. Melt margarine and add to flour. Add sugar and a pinch of salt. Mix thoroughly. Grease an individual cake tin and turn mixture into [indecipherable word]. Bake in moderate oven for 30 minutes. When finished allow to cool. Make a mixture of very thick Klim and sugar. Slice the top off each cake in such a manner as to leave a hollow in the cake. Fill the hollow with the Klim mixture. Cut the top into two pieces and stick into the Klim so that it gives the appearance of wings. Enough for 12 cakes.
[underlined] Mince Pies [/underlined]
Make the same mixture as for Angel cakes, but bake in the form of a cup. Bake in moderate oven for 15-20 mins. Make the filling from Chopped date, Chopped Prunes, raisins, a little [deleted] chop [/deleted] grated carrot and sugar.
Boil in a saucepan with a little water and fill up cakes. Makes 12 pies.
[page break]
89
[blank page]
90
[underlined] A TYPICAL DAY AT BELARIA [/underlined]
[underlined] 9.00 AM [/underlined] First hot water issue. Hot brew in bed by cooks.
[underlined] 10.00 AM [/underlined] Appell. Parade outside to be counted by Goons. Usually lasts 15-20 mins. After Appell, the room was cleaned out generally and the cooks began to prepare lunch or peel potatoes in readiness for dinner. The rest of the chaps did odd jobs that needed doing. Usually spent reading or arguing. Hot water for “dobie” issued as 10.50. Usually wait for this water As shave.
[underlined] 12.30 P.M [/underlined] Hot brew water issue. Lunch (3 slices of toast, spreads & coffee). Afternoons usually spent in visiting libraries or visiting different people, or once again just sitting around reading or arguing.
[underlined] 4.00 P.M. [/underlined] Afternoon Appell. Immediately after appell, there was a hot water issue for tea. Tea was usually just that, although sometimes we had a slice of toast.
[underlined] 7.00 P.M. [/underlined] Evening period on above. Dinner prepared. Usually consisted of:- Potatoes, whatever vegetables the goons gave us, and either Spam or Corned Beef. A sweet was usually served – either barley or something prepared from biscuits.
[underlined] 10.00 P.M. [/underlined] Time on stove to boil water for evening brew. This was usually followed by a game of bridge. Lock-up was at 10.00 too.
[underlined] 12.00. [,underlined] Lights out.
[line]
[underlined] REVIEW OF LIFE AT BELARIA [/underlined]
As can be seen, the most of the day was spent reading, arguing, or doing odd jobs such as washing, shaving, bed-making, darning and sewing etc. I usually had band rehearsals for 1 hour during some part of the day, and immediately before a show sometimes four or even five times a day, (playing with different sections). The Red Cross parcels were issued on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, then when the goons brought in the order prohibiting stores of food, they were issued one each day. The food had to be turned out of the tins and the empty tins returned immediately. Bread was issued on Tuesday and Friday. Barley was issued already cooked on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. The rest of the rations, sugar, jam, cheese etc came in on Saturday afternoon.
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[underlined] LIFE AT BELARIA CTD. [/underlined]
During the summer months, the weather was unusually good and there was lots of sunbathing. Sports played were, Cricket, basketball, hockey and six-a-side soccer. There were also a volley-ball court and two deck tennis courts.
During the winter months, the weather was very miserable and cold and most of the time was spent indoors. The main sport was skating and ice hockey.
A certain percentage of each officer’s pay was deducted each month, equivalent to what was paid us by the Goons. This money was used for canteen issues (tooth paste, soap, brushes, etc. bought from the Goon canteen. It was also used to buy theatrical equipment and hire costumes for the different plays. In the early spring a large amount of seeds were bought and a plot of ground allotted to each mess to be used as a garden. The resulting crop of tomatoes, onions, lettuce, parsnips, carrots etc. was most surprisingly good.
The food question was always very ticklish, no-one ever having food enough to say that he was happily satisfied, especially when the parcel issue was cut by half. The method of cooking and messing was as follows:- When we first arrived we were placed in rooms of eight. This later went up to 10 and later again to 12. Two of the mess did the cooking and everything concerned with cooking, (washing-up, preparing etc) for 2 days at a time. Two periods were allotted on the stove which was in the kitchen at the end of the block. Due particulars periods were 2.00 P.M - 2-45 P.M and 7.00 P.M. – 7.45 P.M. A light meal was served for lunch and the main meal was dinner at 7.45.
On the whole life at Belaria, although monotonous and boring could have been very much worse.
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[underlined] A TYPICAL DAY AT LUCKENWALDE [/underlined]
8.15 AM Hot mint tea. Rise, wash and breakfast (cup of mint tea and 1 slice of bread)
9.00 AM Appell. After appell there was nothing to do except be on our beds and talk, (usually of food).
1.00 P.M. Soup and Potatoes issue. 1 Cup of soup and about 4 medium potatoes.
4.30 P.M. Appell. Immediately following appell. another issue of mint tea.
7.00 P.M. Supper. Four slices of bread & butter.
10.00 P.M. Lights out.
[underlined] REVIEW OF LIFE AT LUCKENWALDE [/underlined]
Life at Luckenwalde was just one long, boring, miserable time. Food was short, quarters were bad & conditions were bad. Most of our time was spent lying on our beds playing cards or talking of what we would do and what we would eat when we got home. The food issue consisted of 1/5 of a loaf of bread per man 1 cup of soup, 4 medium sized potatoes, 2 cups of mint tea (one at 8.15 AM and the other at 4.45 P.M) approximately 1 oz of margarine [underlined] or [/underlined] a spread of some description and sugar and salt. It was a big day when the Norwegians from another compound sent us 250 parcels, enough for 1/5 of a parcel per man. The M.O. from across the wire (where the N.C.O’s from a camp on the Polish frontier are stationed} raised a scream and said that he had men dying on their feet over there. We offered him 30 parcels for his sick to which he replied that the sick couldn’t eat anyway that it was the others he was worried about, and he thought that all the parcels should go over there. After careful enquiries the Group Captain decided that they were no worse off than we were and so the parcels were issued to us. Each parcel contained 1/2 lb rolled oats, 1/2 lb sausage, 1/2 lb syrup, 50 biscuits; 1 lb sugar, 1/2 lb butter, 1/2 lb cheese.
This had to be shared among 5 men. It wasn’t much but it seemed terrific to us on the present rations.
There were very, very few books and these had to be carefully issued. The method was to give one book to 10 chaps to read. It had to be returned in 5 days so usually about 3-4 chaps read it and the rest did without.
We lived in a barrack block, containing 150 men. These were divided into messes of 20. There was very little room for moving about, and everything including eating was done on our beds.
Then came the great day. On March 7th a train-load of parcels arrived at the station and on the 8th we secured a full American parcel each. It was a terrific day. Chaps didn’t make allowance for the
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fact that they had been on such short rations and made themselves sick. It was really surprising for the first few days how little it took to fill us. However we soon settled down to it. Then came the Rhine crossing, and the terrific advances which followed. Optimism reached a new high in the camp as the Allies came nearer, and everyone waited expectantly for the expected Russian offensive to start.
On March 9th a rumour came in from a reliable source stating that we were moving to Munich on the 11th. We prepared to move. The rumour was confirmed the next day and we actually marched to the station and entrained on the 12th.. However the goons told us on the night of the 13th that we should be returning to camp the next day. They said that owing to the repeated objections of the SBO they had decided not to move us. We ourselves could think of lots of other reasons. However the experience was quite enjoyable. Most of the boys had brought along their blowers and smokies and cooking went on all along the siding. One chap in our box car kept a fire going all day with continuous supply of hot water for brews. A good effort. We moved on the morning after we arrived there to another siding along side a road, and despite the goon attempts to stop it, trading started immediately. Of course after a while, we had the usual set of fools who offered more cigarettes than anyone else and sent the prices rocketing. A loaf of bread was being bought for 100 cigarettes. (When we arrived we could get it for 20.)
On returning to camp we found most of the bed-boards missing but luckily I had slung my bed and had no bed board worries. Terrific rumours of how far the Americans were from us. During the week following everyone was tense & hanging on every
Ctd. on PAGE 98.
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[underlined] EXTRACTS FROM LETTERS RECEIVED BY P.O.W.’s. [/underlined]
1st Letter from Fianceè [sic] --- Dear Jack, - You were posted missing for a month so I got married –
- First party of repatriated prisoners arrived home badly maimed, praying you will be among the next -
- I hope you are not being extravagant with the pocket money you get –
Prisoner received a Red + sweater with name & address of donor. He wrote thanking donor. Following is part of reply – I am sorry that it went to you. I meant it for some-one [sic] on Active Service. –
We had 2 repatriated prisoners home last week --- At 8.30 they were under the table --- they were revived but were under another table at 9.30.
- I hope you are [crossed out] enjoying [/crossed out] behaving yourself at the dances and not drinking too much beer.
- P.O.W a year – received a letter congratulating him on joining the armed forces.
- Darling – I just had a baby, but don’t worry, the American officer is sending you cigarettes each week.
- Letter from mother of Canadian P.O.W. – “German P.O.W.’s in Canada are issued with flannels to play tennis – are you?
- Letter from fiancée of Air Crew P.O.W – “I would rather marry a 1943 hero that [sic] a 1940 coward.
- Take care of Andy when you are out drinking – He is so wild.
- Are the German girls good dancers.
- From fiancée to P.O.W:- “Darling – I married your father [symbol] mother.
- When your brother heard you were P.O.W he rushed right out and joined the Home Guard.
- Please do not write to Bill any more, he’s been dead 2 years.
- I wonder if you are as tired as I am of this war.
- On Jap war “You chaps will have plenty of opportunity to make up for wasted time.
- From nurse in M.E. “I am hoping to go on leave in March if this whole thing has blown over by then.
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- You were smart to get yourself parked in Germany for the duration. Look what wonderful stories you will have to tell your children
- You must n’t forget there’s a war on –
- From Fiancee [sic] to P.O.W. “Although I am now married I want you to know that I think the world of you and you will always be near and dear to me.
- By the way I am now a fully-blown engaged girl.
- I hope you are keeping fighting fit dear. I am saving some mistletoe and a couch for you so please come quick.
- It is very good of the Germans allowing their prisoners to correspond with their relatives. By the way, do you want me to send you any money or anything.
- Twinkle, Twinkle little star
Went for a ride in a motor car,
What I did, I aint admittin’
What I’m knittin’ aint for Britain.
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96
[blank page]
97
[double underlined] HEBREWS 13 v 8. [/underlined]
[picture of man with bowl, spoon and fork]
Best of luck – [underlined] ‘Ginge’ [/underlined]
Yours ‘Jock’
F/Lt. William Reid V.C.
Belaria Stalag Luft III
[underlined] Germany [/underlined] 25.1.45
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news item. Then came the big day. APRIL 21. At about 1.00 PM. All the guards left the camp, and the Russian prisoners just ran riot. They were running along outside with sacks of potatoes, clothing and all sorts of odds and ends. One defence scheme went into operation and was soon running smoothly. On the morning of the 22nd we saw our first Russian forces when tanks and lorries entered the camp and took away the Russian prisoners. Everyone was in high spirits and, of course, rumours were rife. The Americans were reported to be only 7 Kms away. However, on the 23rd we were told that we were to remain here until the Americans arrived which should be in about 4-5 days. The link up took longer than they expected however and in the meantime a terrific reaction set in. The chaps were all keen to be home and could talk of nothing else. The food situation improved tremendously and we received personal parcels from the unclaimed store. Wireless sets were requisitioned from town and every block had its own wireless set. Everything possible was done for our comfort during the remainder of our period at Luckenwalde.
The link up took place after what seemed like months of waiting on the 24th. We received the news on the 26th – 5 days which seemed as many months, after our liberation. 5 days of [indecipherable word], rumours, excitement and most important better food.
The Repatriation Committee, all Russian, arrived on the night of 28th. They brought with them 50 lorries, full of food, and on the staff were 20 women. This staff had handled other camps which had been freed but when they arrived here, they said that our position was unique, in that we were the first they had handled who may go home. West instead of by Odessa. They didn’t know when they arrived just how we would go, but they promised that there would be transport from the moment we left the camp, in other words, no more marching.
The on 3rd May two American War correspondents showed up in the camp and they said that they didn’t know we were here until some of our boys arrived at their H.Q. This browned us off no end. We were all sick of sitting around waiting to go home. Here we were two weeks after liberation and as far as we could see, no nearer home. Spirits in the camp were lower than ever they had been before. After the visit of the correspondents there was an
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99
almost mass evacuation of the camp. Everywhere chaps could be seen getting ready to leave the camp to make their own way to the American lines. It was so boring at the camp that this attitude of “anything to get out of here” was quite understandable. There was so much to lose by going that Frank & I decided not to go but to see the thing through to the end. Fortunately on the afternoon of the day following the Yank’s visit, two armoured cars and 3 jeeps came to the camp and told us we were to be taken out unofficially the day after and preparations were made to move out! Unfortunately the Russians refused to allow us to move as they had been given no authority to allow us to go. The SBO resigned his post as Officer 1/2 the whole camp and said that he would command the British troops only. (A copy of his letter will be found on Page 106). Stirring scenes were witnessed when the lorries left empty on the morning of May 7. The Russians refused to allow anyone to board the lorries and the few chaps who managed to get abroad as the lorries were passing were unloaded further down the road and brought back to camp. It was announced later in the day that when actually asked to show the official permission to evacuate us, the American officer admitted that they were doing it unofficially so once again we had to swallow our disappointment and settle down again to wait. The VE. day celebrations were heard over the wireless all day and we listened in silence broken occasionally by some caustic comment. We were a bunch of very disappointed ex-Kriegies. The war was over officially but from our point of view we were still prisoners.
On May 12 we were told we were to move to the [indecipherable word] the following day. We moved into a hut which had no beds, but managed to find enough double tier bunks for our room. It was certainly much brighter than our other accomodation [sic], but we had to put in quite a lot of work to get it cleaned up after the Frenchmen.
The at last came the great day, MAY 20th when we were taken out to the American lines across the River Elbe. On the night of the 19th the siren sounded the recall signal at 8.30 and it was announced that our repatriation papers had been signed and that we would probably move off the next day. The next day (which was Whit Sunday) saw the arrival of the lorries. We boarded the lorries at 12.30 and after a troublesome journey owing to road demolitions etc. we arrived at the Elbe and were transferred to American lorries and taken to a camp near HALLE.
And so ended a period of Kriegie life full of events. We experienced all the emotions of sheer misery, joy, expectancy, frustration, disappointment as never before. I have never, repeat never, been so glad to leave any place as I was to leave Luckenwalde.
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[underlined] Highlights of Belaria [/underlined]
[sketches of camp life]
[underlined] “Lousy Communique [/underlined] [sketch of a large man and a small man walking away]
[underlined]’Shoot’ [/underlined] [sketch of man throwing a basketball at a basket behind the SBO’s back]
[underlined] Circuit Bashing [/underlined] [sketch of a soldier marching under a cloud in the rain]
[underlined] ‘Water Up’ [/underlined] [sketch of men walking towards a building with pitchers and pails of water]
[underlined] “The Cooler” [/underlined] [sketch of a guard pointing towards a door while a man with a bowed head walks towards a second guard]
[underlined] Belaria Air [/underlined] [sketch of a man with a sewage tank]
[underlined] SIX A-SIDE SOCCER?[/underlined] [sketch of a football match with a brawl in the centre of the pitch]
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101
[underlined] Highlights of Belaria Ctd[/underlined]
[sketches of camp life]
[underlined] Abort Equipment [/underlined] [sketch of man with a peg on his nose]
[underlined] Bed-time [/underlined] [sketch of man climbing into top bunk stepping on the head of the occupant of the bottom bunk]
[sketch of man asleep in bed dreaming of food]
[underlined] Bath-day [/underlined] [man singing in in bath tub]
[underlined] Wash-up Time [/underlined] [man standing at table full of crockery]
[underlined] “I’m only half the man I was – ruddy half parcels. [/underlined] [sketch of half a soldier]
[underlined] New Purge Arrival[/underlined] [sketch of rows of men]
[underlined] Two Hours Later [/underlined] [sketch of group of men gathered around asking questions of a seated man]
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102 Highlights of Belaria [underlined] Ctd [/underlined]
[sketches of camp life]
[underlined] APPEL THROUGH THE YEAR. [/underlined] [sketch of a man and the climate for each month of the year]
[underlined] RUMOURS [/underlined] [sketch of five men and the sequence of a rumour]
[underlined] Night School [/underlined] [sketch of three men at a table playing cards while another looks on]
[underlined] The Abort Serenaders [/underlined] [sketch of three men playing bagpipes, saxophone and clarinet]
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103
[blank page]
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[pages 104 and 105 missing]
106
Copy of the letter sent by the Senior British Officer to the Russian Commandant on the occasion of the latter refusing to allow the British and American Prisoners of War to be evacuated by American [indecipherable word].
FROM: Senior British Officer Stalag III A.
TO: Russian Commandant 1/2 Repatriation. Stalag III A.
MAY 7 1945.
In order to avoid misunderstanding I am putting into writing the principle statements which I made at our conference last night.
The situation of the British at this camp is now as follows. From 22nd of April, I, at the request of the Russian authorities, have been responsible for the administration and security of the entire camp of 16,000 mixed nationalities. The work of the camp during this time has been carried out mainly by British and American officers and men. It should however, be appreciated that owing to Russian orders, confinement to camp etc., we have had to continue to all intents and purposes, as prisoners. That these orders were a military necessity is, of course clear, but nevertheless, the result has been a lowering of the spirits of all ranks. It is important to understand and make allowances for the mental attitude of prisoners of war who have been liberated but are still denied their freedom.
The food situation up to yesterday, was precarious and the daily ration, even though assisted by American supplies, is still grossly inadequate. It is realized that the Russian authorities overcame great difficulties in providing food at all under harassing circumstances, but it will also be agreed that the supply organisation of this camp performed most of the work. Furthermore, the camp has become even more [inserted] over [/inserted] crowded owing to the influx of Italian refugees. The problems of sanitation are considerable and the general health is threatened.
In spite of all this, the Russian orders were obeyed, and control was maintained up to the 5th of May. On that day, an American officer representing supreme allied H.Q. arrived with instructions to evacuate the Americans and British in that order. His credentials were not accepted by the Russian authorities here, who stated that they could not allow such an evacuation to proceed since they had no order on the subject. An ambulance convoy which also arrived on this day was allowed to evacuate all American and a few British sick.
Yesterday, the American representative from Supreme Allied H.Q. returned with a convoy to carry out his orders. Capt Tehekarov, acting as deputy for Cap Medvedev, who was sick, refused to allow him to proceed with his duties. Later, when an attempt was made to proceed with the evacuation, armed force was used against American troops to prevent their leaving the camp.
No doubt this whole affair is due to a misunderstanding, but the situation created is extremely serious. In spite of continual assurances that we were to be repatriated with the least possible delay, we now see the Russians actively preventing such repatriation. It is impossible for me to explain or justify such action in the eyes of my officers and men. I warned Capt Medvedev on May 4th that such a situation was likely to arise, and that if it did, I could not be responsible for the circumstances.
Last night I was informed for the first time that the chief obstacle to our repatriation was that the registration was not complete. I have repeatedly offered to undertake the whole task of registration. I could have completed it by now if my offer had been accepted. In any case, I cannot believe that the Russians intend that vital interests should be threatened for the sake of a mere formality.
As SBO here, I am responsible above all else for the welfare of my officers and men. This welfare is seriously endangered by the present situation. I therefore demand that the position may be clarified without delay, and that our repatriation may be proceeded with immediately. Failing this I must ask to be enabled to communicate with my Government. Finally I must point out that the present situation renders my position as S.A.O. untenable. I therefore resign that position and from now on must be regarded as responsible only for the British [line]
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110
[Underlined] DIARY [/underlined]
[Underlined] 1943 DEC 20TH [/underlined] Shot down over target (Frankfurt-on-Main) at 7.35 by J.U.88. Aircraft exploded and nose was blown off. I lost consciousness for a short while and came to, to find myself in the nose on my own. Only one hook of parachute fastened but no time to fasten up second, so just pushed clear and pulled ripcord. Only in chute for about 1/2 minute so estimate that I fell from 20,000 to 2 – 3,000 feet before getting clear. Narrow squeak. Knee injured by explosion. Had no control over chute and landed in a wood, backwards. Damaged knee a little more. Lay for a short while to get breath back and then buried my equipment and parachute beneath some bushes. The raid was still in progress and incendiaries and shrapnel were falling all around. I could hear the “cookies” rushing down too. After burying everything I set out walking West. Walked all night without incident, passing through several small towns. Just as dawn was breaking found myself in fairly large town. Several people around but no-one took any notice of me. Wandered round for some time trying to find my way out of the town. One person spoke to me as he passed and I just grunted back “Guten Morgen”. Found my way out at last and found myself on the banks of a very large river. Lay down beneath some bushes and pulled branches over to cover myself. Camouflage effective. Several people passed close by and didn’t see me.
[Underlined] DEC 21ST [/underlined] Lay up all day. Took out my escape maps and discovered that the river was the Rhine and decided on my route for escape from Germany. Ate a Horlicks tablet every four hours. Few exciting moments when party of Germans came along with a dog and dog began sniffing around my hide-out, but some-one called it and it ran off.
When darkness fell, began to walk again. Walked until about 2.20 AM and then began to look for a barn or a haystack to sleep. Challenged suddenly by two sentries. Said Guten Morgen” [sic] and tried to pass. They let me go for a short while until one of them shouted something else. I didn’t know what he said so just carried on. They ran after me and shone a torch on me. After jabbering a few questions they realised suddenly that I was R.A.F. They shot back the bolts of their rifles and ordered me to put my hands up. I did so and they took me to their headquarters. I had been wondering what sentries were doing away out in the country. It transpired later that they were guarding a Halifax which had crashed there. After close questioning and a glass of beer and two slices of bread and cheese, my knee was bandaged and I was taken to bed, with an armed guard in the room beside me.
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[Underlined] DEC 22ND [/underlined] Wakened at about 7 A.M. and taken to “Gulag Luft” at Frankfurt-on-Main. Only incident en route was an old civilian who recognised me as R.A.F. and very kindly came up and spat in my face. There was nothing I could do so I just smiled and said “Danke” at which he flew into a terrific rage. I thought he would hit me but the guards moved him on. I didn’t blame this chap when I saw Frankfurt. It was a shambles. Arrived at “Gulag Luft” and placed in a small cell. 8 feet by 6 feet. Had to undress while all my clothes were searched. Had escape money tucked into toe of flying boot and it was not found. At 12.30 was given a bowl of soup. At 4.30 was given two slices of bread and butter and a cup of mint tea. Terrible stuff. Nothing further
[Underlined] DEC 23RD [/underlined] Wakened at 9. AM by guards and given 2 slices of bread and butter and a cup of mint tea. Bowl of soup at 12.30. Bread and butter and mint tea at 4.30. [deleted word]
Civilian came in during afternoon and said he was from the Red Cross and gave me a form to fill in saying that if I filled it in right away it would be sent off and the folks at home would receive news that I was a P.O.W. so much soon. [sic] The form required to know details such as target, squadron, station etc. so I just refused to fill it in. I signed my name, number and rank, and crossed the rest out.
[Underlined] DEC 24TH [/underlined] Wakened with the usual two slices of bread and mint tea at 9 AM. Soup at 12.30. Bread & mint tea at 4.30. German officer (I think) came in during [deleted word] [inserted] morning [/inserted] to ask for details of squadron and the raid etc. Told him my name and number and refused to say anything else. He almost pleaded with me saying that if I told him, I would be sent to another camp among my comrades for Christmas Day. In the afternoon was taken out to a big office to be interrogated. Chap there asked me for details again and once more I refused, upon which he said that they knew my squadron etc but just wanted to check that I wasn’t a spy. He asked me how Squadron Leader Parks was getting along on his second tour and why we were called the bullseye squadron and lots of other questions which I refused to answer. He then told me that our c.o. had been shot down the same night as I had and that some of the crew were there. I still said nothing. He said that if I would give them just a little information I would go into a camp where I would be among my own friends but I still kept quiet, and was eventually taken back to Cell 61. Brought
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From my cell at about 7.00 P.M and taken to a corridor where there were a lot of other chaps among them Tommy Hughes who I knew well and his “second dicky”, Peter Boyle Personal belongings were returned and we were taken to a separate place through the barbed wire. We went into a barrack block there and found places to sleep. Tommy and I slept together on the top of a double tier bed.
[Underlined] DEC 25. [/underlined] Taken this morning to the transit camp on the other side of Frankfurt. Christmas dinner waiting for us when we get there. A lovely meal including a small portion of Christmas Pudding and biscuits. Sing-song in the dining hall at night.
[Underlined] DEC 26. [/underlined] Reported sick after breakfast and admitted to hospital with water-on-the knee
[Underlined] DEC 31 [/underlined Saw New Year in on my own. Could hear the sing-song in the blocks but no-one in hospital.
[Underlined] 1944 [/underlined]
[Underlined] JAN 8 [/underlined] Left Frankfurt in cattle trucks en-route to Sagan. Stalag Luft III
[Underlined] JAN 10 [/underlined] Arrived Sagan. Taken to Belaria camp. Moved straight into hospital. The rest of the boys are saving my place in the room, Three of us from our room of eight in hospital.
[Underlined] MARCH 22. [/underlined] Left Hospital.
[Underlined] MARCH 29. [/underlined] First Bandshow. Played with Tango Section and swing section
[Underlined] MARCH [/underlined] 24 Big escape from North Camp. 81 escaped.
[Underlined] APRIL 10TH [/underlined] Germans announced that 50% of the officers who escaped had been shot. Intense indignation in camp. Germans sent to Coventry.
[Underlined] APRIL 13TH [/underlined] Memorial service for officers who were shot. Great excitement immediately following service when British tommies were seen to be patrolling the wire and manning sentry boxes. Union Jack flying in Vorlager. Turned out to be film show. Lots of fun messing up one of the scenes at main gate.
[Underlined] APRIL [/underlined] Received first mail from home.
[Underlined] [Deleted] MAY [/deleted] JUNE 4TH [/underlined] Leon and [indecipherable word] left the mess and Frank and Ken arrived.
[Underlined] JUNE 6TH [/underlined] Allied invasion of North France.
[Underlined] JUNE 7TH [/underlined] Room numbers went up to 10 with arrival of Ham and Chuck in new purge.
[Underlined] JUNE 30TH [/underlined] Room number up to 12 with arrival of Peter and Henry
News that Montgomery forecasts end of war in autumn and Churchill promises, lights in London for Christmas.
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113
[Underlined] JULY 20TH [/underlined] Attempted assassination of Hitler. Germans withheld news from Camp until 22ND. All Germans adopted “Heil Hitler” salute in place of military salute.
[Underlined] AUGUST 12TH [/underlined] First film in camp. “[indecipherable words]” – a third rate film. Heat terrific, though wearing only shorts.
New purge arrived in evening including Jock Reid V.C.
[Underlined] AUGUST 13TH [/underlined] Goon guard shot at one of boys who accidentally touched warning wire while walking round circuit. Bullet passed through his hand.
[Underlined] AUGUST 15TH [/underlined] New allied landings in South of France between TOULON and CANNES.
[Underlined] AUGUST 17TH [/underlined] Weighed on kitchen scales. Weight 11st 10lbs.
[Underlined] AUGUST 21ST [/underlined] New purge arrived and Jack Meek came into room to replace Peter Pearson who moved to Room 7.
[Underlined] AUGUST 24TH [/underlined] Weighed on kitchen scales. Weight 11st 8lbs.
[Underlined] AUGUST 30TH [/underlined] Saw Comedy thriller “The Man at the Door”. Very good acting.
[Underlined] AUGUST 31ST [/underlined] Weighed on kitchen scales. Weight 11st 7lbs.
[Underlined] SEPTEMBER 2ND [/underlined] Frank and I commenced messing on our own.
[Underlined] SEPTEMBER 11TH [/underlined] Owing to difficulties in supplying Red Cross parcels from Geneva, existing stock being issued at 1/2 parcel per man per week, instead of whole parcel.
Sports field closed from today. Extension to camp being built on it. Walks outside camp starting today. 30 men at 8 AM, 30 at 10.15, 30 at 2.15. Length of walk approx. 1 1/2 hours.
[Underlined] SEPTEMBER 12TH [/underlined] Chaps on one of todays [sic] walks raided orchard. Terrific “stink” kicked up by Goon farmer.
[Underlined] SEPTEMBER 13TH [/underlined] Another walk incident!! Note found addressed to Group Captain after afternoon walk had left saying that one of chaps intended to commit suicide, while on the walk. Goons chased after the walk on bicycles and recalled them before threatened suicide took place. Culprit taken to hospital.
[Underlined] OCTOBER 5TH [/underlined] “French Without Tears” at camp theatre in evening. Very good.
[Underlined] OCTOBER 18TH [/underlined] Received first personal parcel together with Steve & Pat. Lots of Chocolate. Couldn’t be better.
[Underlined] OCTOBER 27TH [/underlined] Birthday. Had a two tier cake. Saved 1lb chocolate
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from personal parcel to make icing. “Wizard” bash!
[Underlined] OCTOBER 29. [/underlined] New purge – general opinion that war will last till spring.
[Underlined] OCTOBER 31 [/underlined] “The Astonished Ostrich” at theatre in evening. – very good.
Jack Normandale astonished camp with his impersonation of a woman.
Extension to compound opened today.
[Underlined] NOVEMBER 4 [/underlined] First meeting of “The Music Society of Lower Silesia”. First performance of “Stringing Along”.
[Underlined] NOVEMBER 5 [/underlined] Received second personal parcel. Lots more chocolate. Big bash.
[Underlined] NOVEMBER 12. [/underlined] Second meeting of “Music Society”. No fires in theatre. Could hardly play for the cold.
[Underlined] NOVEMBER 17 [/underlined] Goons ordered that all food held in store by people in the camp must be eaten by 20TH otherwise it will be confiscated. Terrific meals with lovely “brews”
“George and Margaret” at theatre in evening – excellent.
[Underlined] NOVEMBER 18 [/underlined] Largest new purge in camp to date, mostly Americans, the first in Belaria. 72 Americans; 22 R.A.F. “Ham” went to new extension. Gordon arrived.
[Underlined] NOVEMBER 22. [/underlined] New purge – mostly American. Steve left room to work in hospital. Bill arrived.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 1 [/underlined] “Mr Corn comes to Town” – Canadian revue in theatre, good.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 7. [/underlined] Second film show in camp. Marlene Dietrich and Randolph Scott in “The Spoilers”.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 14. [/underlined] Frank’s wedding anniversary. He made a super cake consisting of a layer of cake, a layer of raisins, another layer of cake, layer of chocolate, layer of cake and chocolate and raisins on the top. A “Wizard” effort.
4 [indecipherable word deleted] three tier bunks in room to replace six two tiers.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 19 [/underlined] A new Christmas hamper of food from Vorlager. This hamper was food which we were allowed to store from the ‘bash’ of NOV 17. Made the Christmas Cake.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 20 [/underlined] Made one dozen Angel Cakes and one dozen mince pies.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 21 [/underlined] Made large tart to be filled later with chocolate.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 22. [/underlined] Iced the Christmas Cake.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 25. [/underlined] Breakfast before Appell. Porridge, bacon and sausages. Christmas Cake with tea. No-one ate their full portion. Much too large. Dinner at 7.30. Soup, Turkey, potatoes (roast and creamed) carrots, peas
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Christmas pudding with thick Klim sauce. The Christmas parcels (American were issued on the 23RD and contents will be found on page 80) “Fanfare” the Christmas show should have opened at 9.30. but owing to a misunderstanding we were locked in the barracks at the normal time (10.00) and so the show was postponed until tomorrow evening.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 26 [/underlined] Opening night of “Fanfare” 2 1/2 hour show.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 28 [/underlined] New Year’s Eve is to be a special night for the show with the start at 9.30 and finishing with the entry of the New Year. Three invitation seats given to each member of the band. Group Captain and Senior Officers decided that these should be withdrawn in favour of a list drawn up by them and so band say that if this happens, the show will go on at the normal time (7.00PM).
[Underlined] DECEMBER 30 [/underlined] Theatre now cleared up. Everyone will go and the band win their point.
[Underlined] DECEMBER 31 [/underlined] Fanfare at 9.30 carried on until 12.00. Not locked in barracks until 2.00 AM. Lots of fun and games, as far as possible.
[Underlined] 1945[/underlined]
[Underlined] JANUARY 1ST [/underlined] Last night of ‘Fanfare’.
[Underlined] JANUARY 17 [/underlined] “Tony draws a Horse” in theatre. Very Good.
[Underlined] JANUARY 20 [/underlined] Terrific surge in optimism in camp. New Russian offensive brings them today within 100 miles of Sagan. Lorries containing civilian refugees and luggage beginning to pass camp.
[Underlined] JANUARY 23 [/underlined] Refugees passing camp all day long. mostly [sic] in horse drawn carts.
Red Cross parcel issue back to one full parcel per man per week. Future supply of Goon rations-doubtful. Preparation for march in full swing in case we are moved out. Kit bags being converted to haversacks and packs. Special cake made from barley. Klim cocoa and sugar.
[Underlined] JANUARY 25 [/underlined] Nearest point of Russian advance now only 50 miles from us. Gunfire heard at frequent intervals during the day. Refugees still pouring along the road.
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[Underlined] JANUARY 26. [/underlined] 20 R.A.F. N.C.O.s arrived at 11 P.M. from camp on the Polish Czech frontier. They were among 1500 evacuated from there 8 days ago - had been on road since. Tonight’s [deleted] sick [/deleted] arrivals were sick who did last two days of trip to Belaria by rail. Rest of party still on road somewhere living on infrequent Goon rations and finding rough going through snow and ice.
[Underlined] JANUARY 27 [/underlined] At 9 P.M. given 1/2 hour’s notice to move. Packed all kit, available food (very little) change of clothing, shaving kit. 3 blankets. Paraded about 10 P.M. hung around in snow for nearly an hour then sent back to barracks. Big industrial effort on sleigh making. Surplus cigarettes burnt, gramophone records broken so that the Germans couldn’t use them.
[Underlined] JANUARY 28 [/underlined Paraded again at about 5.30 – snowing – finally moved out of camp at about 7 AM. – about 1100 of us. 80 sick left behind. One Red Cross parcel per man issued on leaving camp.
Passed through SAGAN where many civilian refugees on roads. Passed EAST and NORTH compounds which had been evacuated around 4AM. Marched [number missing] KMS and reached village of SORAV late in afternoon, where we were billeted in barn to sleep. Boots soaking wet from days [sic] march in snow – froze overnight. Learnt that total destination is 70 KMS.
[Underlined] JANUARY 29 [/underlined] Started marching again at 8AM. About mid-day Frank and I fell in with Jack and George who were dragging a sleigh. They wanted someone to share in the pulling so we were only too glad of the chance and put our kit on the sleigh. Going very much easier. Marched [number missing] KMS reaching village of [name missing] where we bedded down for the night in barns.
[Underlined] JANUARY 30 [/underlined] No marching today. Spent day repairing sleigh, cooking, bartering cigarettes for bread and resting. Reported sick. Blisters on feet and one chilblain. Rumour that we are entraining at SPREMBERG. Goons issued 1/2 cups of boiled barley per man in the morning.
[Underlined] JANUARY 31 [/underlined] On the road again. Pretty rough going over hills. Few minor calamities with sleigh. Covered [number missing] KMS. Arriving at MUSKAV in evening. In barns again. Had first wash since leaving BELARIA.
[Underlined] FEBRUARY 1ST [/underlined] No march today. Heavy thaw during night continued during day. Ground unfit for sleigh pulling tomorrow. Goons issued 1/2 cup of barley per man and 1/5 of a loaf per man.
[Underlined] FEBRUARY 2 [/underlined] Set out today on what is promised as last lap of journey to train. Americans taken separately to a different destination. Sleigh abandoned and kit carried on back. Goons provided a horse and wagon to carry Red ross parcels which were issued at BELARIA. Weather fine for walking. Walked [number missing] KMS. Spent night just outside SPREMBERG in barns. Goons issued 1/7 of a loaf per man.
[Underlined] FEBRUARY 3 [/underlined] Marched to Panzer training school barracks at SPREMBERG where we were given first respectable meal of march, a bowl of pig swill, refreshing if not appetizing. Joined by about 400 of the chaps from EAST COMPOUND. Left in
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afternoon for station. Entrained in cattle trucks, 45 men to a truck. Goons issued 1/5 of a loaf per man.
[Underlined] FEBRUARY 4 [/underlined] Train left SPREMBERG late last night and arrived at LUCKENWALDE about 6PM today. Most uncomfortable journey ever. Not enough room to stretch legs so spent the night in cramped position. Train stopped frequently during day often for 1/2 hour to 1 hour. During these stops scrounged hot water from engine driver for brews.
Marched from station to camp (5KMS) arriving about 7 P.M. waited outside in rain for 1/2 hour and finally taken in. Promised a hot meal which did not materialise. Goons insisted that all 1400 of us should have a hot “de-lousing” shower and a search before passing into compound. Air-raid delayed the proceedings somewhat, but managed along with Frank to be in first batch for showers. Following search was very slipshod. Finally got to bed at 3AM. the most uncomfortable I have ever been in. Bed-boards, a palliase and very, very little straw.
[Underlined] REVIEW OF THE MARCH [/underlined]
It was good to get away from barbed wire for a few days. Unfortunately my shoes were a little tight on the first day and I had a couple of blisters and a chilblain at the end of the day’s tack. I wore flying boots for the rest of the journey until the last day when it was dry and I managed to get my shoes on again. Sleeping in the barns was rather comfortable, and after a day on the march very welcome. The weight of kit to be carried, conditions underfoot, insufficient food and the low physical reserves of strength after 5 months on half parcels, were the main snags. The Doc’s main worries were, Chilblains, blisters, rheumatism and stomach troubles, the latter particularly after the 24 hours in the cattle truck. Frank and I usually ate 2 slices of bread for breakfast, 2 slices during the day and two in the evening. The evening slices were the big meal of the day, being spread with corned beef or pilchards whereas the others had cheese or jam. Luckily we managed to barter bread for cigarettes en route so that the bread lasted out. We usually managed two hot brews during the day. German civilians usually good-hearted enough to bring out buckets of water for us as we passed. On the whole we had our fair share of “hardships” and it left us in no condition to stand up to a further march particularly as we have no decent food to build up our strength again. There are no Red Cross parcels and we live entirely on German rations which consist of 1/5 of a loaf, 1 cup of soup, either margarine or spread enough for about 8 slices of bread – per day. Sugar is issued at infrequent intervals and we have hot mint tea twice per day. The bread ration works out at 5 slices per man.
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We also receive about 4 medium sized potatoes, boiled in their skins. So that our menu for the day is:- Breakfast. – 1 1/2 slices bread & marg. Cup of mint tea.
Lunch – 4 potatoes, and 1 cup of soup.
Tea - 1 1/2 slices bread & marg Cup of mint tea
Supper – 2 slices bread & marg
The chief pastime is to talk of food we will eat when we get home.
Every day is so alike that no-one ever knows what day it is without thinking hard first. Almost everyone in the camp has a cold and rheumatism [sic] coughs, colds etc., are common – a reaction from the march.
[Underlined] FEBRUARY 23 [/underlined] Big day today. Norwegians who are in a separate compound here made us a gift several days ago of 250 of their Red Cross parcels. After lots of discussion as to whether they should go to the N.C.O.s over the wire (who are supposed to be in a bad way but who can still exchange food for cigarettes over the wire) the parcels were finally issued to us today. We had 1/5 of a parcel per man, not much, but it helps out quite a bit. They contained Cheese, biscuits, sausage, honey, sugar, oats and butter.
[Underlined] MARCH 1ST [/underlined] Came in like proverbial lion with terrific wind and rumour of parcels
[Underlined] MARCH 2ND [/underlined] Wind up to gale force. Rumours of parcels all day long, ranging from 1/3 of a parcel to commence in 2 days time, to 1 whole parcel to commence next Monday. S.B.O. [Senior British Officer] had block commander’s meeting in evening and dispelled all rumours by saying that nothing of parcels was known at all.
[Underlined] MARCH 4 [/underlined] Frank’s birthday. Saved up a little bread so that for the evening meal we could have 4 bread & potato pancakes, and four slices of bread with Patè & marg spread.
Snowed heavily all morning and most of afternoon.
Have had sirens each of past 12 nights, regularly between 8 & 9 P.M. Sometimes after lights out too. Air raids every day, sometimes twice a day. Can see the evening raids, besides feeling the concussion and blast of bombs.
[Underlined] MARCH 6 [/underlined] Told that we were having an issue of 1/2 an American Red Cross parcel each, tomorrow.
[Underlined] MARCH 7 [/underlined Americans told on parade that there are 25 truck loads of parcels at the station addressed to them. Later in morning 1/2 parcel issue cancelled as they were just on loan from the French. Goons promised that 900 parcels would be delivered today so arrangements made for Americans to be issued first then the rest to us the issue being 1 full parcel per man. The Goons failed to fulfil their contract however, and only brought in 500 so that only the Americans got parcels. However we hope to get ours tomorrow.
[Underlined] MARCH 8 [/underlined] A Great Day. We received a full American parcel each in the afternoon. Terrific “bashes” all over. Frank & I had two slices of bread spread with jam & cheese for tea. For supper we cut the bread a little thinner so that we got seven slices. The supper menu was:- 1/2 the potato ration mashed & fried, and a whole tin of spam (between us,) then the bread spread as follows 1, jam: 2 Cheese 3. Cheese & jam, 4 Cheese & Rose Mill Patè; 5 Coffee cream (Klim, sugar, marg & coffee)
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then one biscuit spread thickly with chocolate cream (same as 5 with chocolate). So full that the biscuit had to be left until 1 hour later. So warm during night that I couldn’t sleep. (General complaint.) Lovely to feel absolutely full once again.
[Underlined] MARCH 9 [/underlined] Announced during morning that the next parcel issue is to be on Monday or Tuesday [underlined] if [/underlined] we get any co-operation from the Goons. Frank & I decided to go easy in case co-operation lacking, and make parcel last another week at least. Can always have another “bash” if we do get an early issue. The policy seems to be to get the food in as quickly as possible and build us all up again. Terrific rumours of more parcels arriving. No confirmation, but hoping. Norwegians have received some dried fish which they have shared with us. Being issued (cooked) on Monday or Tuesday.
[Underlined] MARCH 14 [/underlined] Second parcel issue. Should have been yesterday but Goons slipped up again. Photo check on Appell in morning. Kept us out there for 2 hours. Wizard trifle in evening. Filled me, completely
[Underlined] MARCH 15 [/underlined] Goons say that if we stop trading over wire we can have parcels every fifth day. American bombers over camp today on way to some target east of Berlin. Lovely sight.
[Underlined] MARCH 17 [/underlined] Another parcel issue. Frank & I are really having some good meals now. A firm favourite is the Whipped Cream Sundae for which we had to do some trading to get extra KLIM.
[Underlined] MARCH 19 [/underlined] Parcels spirits damped. Told that there are only 2 1/2 parcels each left in store and so issue now will be every 10 days.
[Underlined] MARCH 26 [/underlined] Another parcel issue today.
[Underlined] MARCH 28 [/underlined] G/C MACDONALD; W/C PARCELLE; S/L WILLIAMS and GEORGE from the cookhouse left for NUREMBERG to be repatriated to ENGLAND. This is an expression of gratitude from the Germans for our good behaviour on the march from Sagan.
[Underlined] MARCH 31 [/underlined] Parcel issue today instead of Monday owing to the fact that Monday is a holiday for the Germans. Frank and I have been saving a little food during the week so that we can have a “big bash” tomorrow (Easter Sunday) Spent today preparing. Iced three cakes and made a big whipped cream sundae each.
[Underlined] APRIL 1 [/underlined] EASTER SUNDAY. Frank & I had our “big bash”. For breakfast we had each:- 2 slices fried bread. 1/2 tin sardines, 1 slice Spam, and a small potato & Rose Mill Patè cake. This was followed by a cupful of boiled barley. For lunch we had 1 cup of soup followed by coffee and a piece of cake. We entertained Reg to tea when we had coffee & cake. For dinner we had 1 1/2 day’s potato ration, 1/2 tin Spam, four slices of bread & spreads, and trifle. Frank also ate his last piece of cake but I could only eat a small slice. Left the rest until tomorrow. The trifle was made in a cut down Klim tin (about 1/2 size) and consisted of a layer of coffee cream, one of chocolate cream, layer of cake mixture made from biscuit, marg, sugar and chocolate; a layer of chocolate and raisins, a layer of whipped cream, and a thin layer
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of Pineapple cream. Returned to bed absolutely full.
Meeting of the “Geordies” during the afternoon to discuss our post-war dinner.
[Underlined] APRIL 9th [/underlined] Rumours of move on Wednesday to a camp near MUNICH
[Underlined] APRIL 10 [/underlined] Rumour confirmed. We are to be ready by blackout tonight to move at five minutes notice.
[Underlined] APRIL 11 [/underlined] Still at Luckenwalde but a list of marching orders has been posted. Our barrack is to parade for identity and search at 9.30 AM tomorrow.
[Underlined] APRIL 12 [/underlined] Left barrack at 9.30 and went on to parade ground where we were identified and had German blankets taken from us. We were then marched to Vorlager to be searched, after which we marched to the station. Stayed in the station yard for quite a while before entraining so boys had the “smokies” going. Small incident when civvie chap wearing a swastika in his buttonhole found one of the boys with a “smokie” near some benzine barrels, and knocked him over and threw smokie on to the rails. He then tried to move us by yelling and shouting in typical German fashion but boys just ignored him. Soup and spuds came down from the camp at 12.30. Later in the afternoon we entrained 40 to a waggon. No signs of moving off. Frank bought two knives for four cigarettes. Issued with 1/2 parcel each.
[Underlined] APRIL 13 [/underlined] Still in the station. Moved a little later to a siding alongside a road. Trading started despite goon attempts to stop it. Spent a very enjoyable day. Weather exceptionally good. Attack by Thunderbolts on a target South of us. Luckily we have our wagon roofs painted over P.O.W. Told at night that owing to repeated protestations by the S.B.O. we were not to be moved after all. Returning to camp tomorrow. News of American advances put everyone in most optimistic mood. Expecting to be freed at any time.
[Underlined] APRIL 14 [/UNDERLINED] Returned to camp. Terrific raid on Potsdam at night. Lovely sight.
[Underlined] APRIL 15 [/underlined] Received 1/2 parcel to make up issue on train. Thunderbolts seen over camp.
[Underlined] APRIL 16 [/underlined] News still very good. Rumours that Russians have started an offensive confirmed. Opinion divided as to whether we shall be freed by Russians or Americans. Betting 6-5 on the Russians.
[Underlined] APRIL 17 [/underlined] Thunderbolts bombed target S.W. of camp. Judged to be 15-20 miles away
[Underlined] APRIL 18 [/underlined] Marauders over camp escorted by Mustangs. First glimpse of T.A.F.
[Underlined] APRIL 19 [/underlined] Rumour came in late at night that Russians had broken through just S.E. of us and that the Commandant intends moving the whole camp West tomorrow morning.
[Underlined] APRIL 20 [/underlined] Rumour of last night proved false. Forts over in in great force in morning bombing targets North, North West and due West of camp. Gunfire
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heard at night from North-East, East and South. S.B.O. addressed all barracks at 10.30 telling us that latest information received by him placed the Russians 20 miles N.E. and 15 miles East while in the South they had reached JUTEBORG. The last seemed very unlikely
[Underlined] APRIL 21 [/underlined] Morning spent very quietly, but just after soup the defence scheme came into operation. The goon guards all evacuated camp and chaps were running around all over the place. The defence scheme worked very smoothly and everything was soon under perfect control. At night there was lots of artillery fore and some small arms fire. Just after we got to bed a 190 came over and opened fire on the woods just by the camp. Shook us up a bit.
[Underlined] APRIL 22 [/underlined] Woke to find Russians entering camp. Rumours that Americans are near at hand. Lots of rumours as to how we shall be taken out of here. Information given out at night as to what the S.B.O. had been doing all day. Apparently the town is in charge of a Russian Major who has detailed a Captain to look after the camp. When asked about the electricity and water he said it would be seen to at once (They had both been off since yesterday). He said that there was plenty of labour in the town. He also said that they would take over a village and take all their cows etc. to supply meat for the camp. We are to share food equally with the Russian troops. So on the whole the situation is much rosier. We are not to move until the Americans arrive which should only be a matter of days, but oh! what long, long days.
[Underlined] APRIL 23 [/underlined] Meat, potatoes and bread coming into camp all day long. Informed that I should be on guard from 4 AM – 6 AM in the morning. Reported for briefing at 8 P.M. Complete farce, still no water or electricity. Drawing all our water from pool behind the camp. Camp shot up again.
[Underlined] APRIL 24 [/underlined] Wakened at 4 A.M to do my guard. Spent last part of guard finding German store. Managed to get a steel helmet – my first souvenir. Funeral for some Russian prisoners who died of starvation.
[Underlined] APRIL 27 [/underlined] Still waiting for the link-up. General Ruger has been to Marshal Koniyev’s headquarters and received the impression that we were definitely to remain here until the link-up takes place. The one topic of conversation is “when will the link-up be”. A Russian major [indecipherable word] visited the SBO two days ago accompanied by a beautiful girl interpreter, and a [deleted] y [/deleted] bodyguard armed with a tommy-gun. While the general was with the SBO. the guard posted himself outside
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the door on guard. The Russian girl later gave her impression of the camp. She said that the living quarters were disgraceful as accommodation and that under the conditions the British & American officers were remarkably smart and remarked on their cleanliness and bearing. She said that in previous camps which she had visited the prisoners had left the camp immediately the Russian forces arrived and billeted themselves in private houses inflicting a large amount of damage by looting and wilful plundering. None of these, happily, were British. Ours was the first British camp she had visited and she (and all the Russian officers) were amazed and pleasantly surprised to find the place under such perfect control. In all other camps they had had to install order and form an administrative staff whereas here all this was done when they arrived. In all they were most favourably impressed. It appears that the Germans in town have plenty of water but haven’t built up a sufficient head of pressure to supply the camp so the town major sent for the mayor of the town and told them that it would be very unfortunate if this was not done. The mayor appreciated the point and we expect more water almost immediately.
At 8 P.M. news came of the link-up and spirits went up accordingly. American officers have been seen in Luckenwalde and an American War Correspondent accompanied by an American girl passed through on his way to Berlin.
[Underlined] APRIL 28 [/underlined] Repatriation Committee arrived in camp late at night. Brought with them 50 lorries of food. The staff consisted of 15 officers, 20 Women, and 200 other ranks. The whole staff was Russian. They had no news of how or when we return home.
[Underlined] APRIL 29. [/underlined] Todays [sic] local news bulletin gave details of a meeting between the Russian officer in charge of the Repat. committee (Capt Medvedev
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and the Senior Allied Officer. The Captain has brought his own wireless station for direct contact with his Commanding General’s H.Q. at Marshal Koniyevs H.Q. He was surprised and gratified at our organisation and administration and hoped to arrange film shows, concerts, lectures and dances while we await repatriation. He was horrified by conditions in the camp which he considered depressing and very overcrowded. He intends inspecting the neighbourhood for better accommodation.
Following a battle to the E. of Luckenwalde last night 18,000 Germans surrendered.
An Englishwoman (Mrs Thomas of Blackheath) and her 2 Children have arrived in the camp after a 4 day journey from Berlin. It is reported that in spite of being under fire several times, and the fact that their feet are blistered, the spirits of John, aged 10, and Diane, age 7 are not affected.
A later local news bulletin gave details of a meeting between the S.A.O. [Senior American Officer] and General Famin [sic], who is Senior Russian officer in charge of repat of POWs in this area. He had no news of our return -but his own opinion was that it would be Westward, but there is no immediate prospect. He has decided to move everyone with the exception of the Poles and Italians to the Adolf Hitler lager, a German officers’ rest camp, 6 miles from here on the road to Juterborg. It is reported to be a show-place built on luxurious lines in a woodland setting and complete with sports stadium, baths, showers, swimming pool, cinema and excellent living quarters.
[Underlined] APRIL 30 [/underlined] Frank went walking today and he and Reg ran into a party of Germans armed to the teeth, hiding out in
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wood about 1/4 mile from the camp. They had commenced retreating from Guben a fortnight ago, had broken up into small parties and spent 5 days without food, sleeping during the day and moving West during the night hoping to reach the American lines so that they could surrender. They said they would be shot if they surrendered to the Russians. One of them was only 17 but had been in the army for 2 years. Luckily they weren’t hostile and after a while allowed Frank & Reg to leave.
Tonight’s local news bulletin reported that French, Yugoslav [sic] Italian, Belgian and other foreign workers were being directed off the roads into the Adolf Hitler lager. A guard of Americans is being sent to guard that part of the camp allotted to the British, American and Norwegian personnel.
Captain Medvedev had today been apprehensive of a German attack on the camp, but reported after a reconnaissance that though there were many Germans in the vicinity of the camp, an attack was not now likely.
Lots of mortar and machine gun fire around the camp after dark.
[Underlined] MAY 1ST [/underlined] Mortar and machine gun fire continued today. One shell landed in camp but did no harm. Luckenwalde has been declared a war zone. Russians are mopping up the many German troops who are trying to reach the Americans. The Russians have renamed the Adolf Hitler lager – the Joseph Stalin Camp now popularly known by the boys as Joes’ Palace or Joe’s Place. The possibility of an early move there are reduced by the local military situation and the flood of refugees moving into the place.
News from home today of a circular issued by Home Office on “V” day celebrations. Hopes of being home for this great day fall lower as each day passes.
News flash after lights out – Hitler is dead.
[Underlined] MAY 2. [/underlined] The S.A.O. has called off our move to Joe’s Place and
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withdrawn all the guards. The place is now apparently a shambles swarming all over the place with foreign workers who are looting and wantonly destroying valuable material [deleted] elf [/deleted] left by the Goons. Apparently they have destroyed all the films, and projectors. Typewriters have been smashed with crowbars and the whole thing is just wanton destruction. Forced to move from our intended quarters, they took beds and every moveable object with them. Things which had to be left, such as wash basins etc., were smashed. These parties are armed and there was little that our guard could do against them. One of the guard was fired on while riding a cycle.
B.B.C. announced tonight the cessation of hostilities in Italy where German forces have surrendered unconditionally
[Underlined] MAY 3 [/underlined] This morning’s news announces the capture of Berlin which surrendered to Russian forces at 3 P.M. yesterday. All the recent good news – the deaths of Hitler and Mussolini the capitulation of Italy, the surrender of Berlin – arouse but little enthusiasm here where our main thought is repatriation. Our attitude just now is “In spite of it all, in spite of our liberation, we are still behind barbed wire, and none the wiser as to when we shall be home. Take us home and we’ll start cheering.
Was on guard at night, bid [sic] two shifts one from 10PM -12 and the second 4 A.M.-6AM.
Two American war correspondents arrived in the camp. They say that they knew nothing of us here until some of our boys who left the camp turned up there. They are going back tomorrow and taking back Capt Beattie, another correspondent who has been with us since we got here. He is flying to Paris to see General Eisenhower and give him details of us here together with a nominal roll.
[Underlined] MAY 4 [/underlined] An eventful day. Two armoured cars and three Jeeps arrived at the camp. The Americans in them told us that their C.O. a colonel was making unofficial arrangements to have us taken out of here by lorry. Consequently we packed our things and made
[Underlined] Ctd Page 140 [/underlined]
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[Map showing German towns and cities and the border with Switzerland]
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[Map showing towns and cities in Germany and the border with Holland with a scale]
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[Map of German towns and cities with Berlin in the centre showing ranges from Berlin.]
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[Map showing German towns and cities and a scale]
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[Underlined] The Question of Food [/underlined]
During the stay at Luckenwalde we lived entirely on German rations. These consisted of 6 slices of bread per day, 1 cup of soup and either margarine or some type of spread, enough for about four slices of bread [inserted] and four medium sized potatoes. [/inserted]
At this time the main topic of conversation was food and everywhere could be heard discussions on favourite foods. Frank and Reg and I discussed various dishes [deleted letters] and Frank and I decided that when he came to stay with me as he intends, when we get home, we will try some of these dishes. We decided to draw up a menu for one week and when he comes, to stick to this menu for the week as far as rationing permits. And so here we have the menu for food of which we dreamed:-
[Underlined] MONDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST. [/underlined]
[Underlined] PORRIDGE [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED LIVER: BACON: EGGS: TOMATOES: [/underlined]
[Underlined] BISCUITS: TEA OR COFFEE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER [/underlined]
[Underlined] COLD MEAT: FRIED POTATOES: PICKLES: BEETROOT: [/underlined]
[Underlined] STEWED APPLE AND SUET PUDDING WITH CUSTARD. [/underlined]
[Underlined] COFFEE [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] DOVER SOLE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] CAKES: SANDWICHES. [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER[/underlined]
[Underlined] PIG’S TROTTERS: COCOA [/underlined]
[Page break]
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[Underlined] TUESDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST [/underlined]
[Underlined] CORN FLAKES [/underlined]
[Underlined] HAM: EGGS: TOMATOES [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER [/underlined]
[Underlined] STEAK AND KIDNEY PUDDING: CAULIFLOWER: CREAMED POTATOES. [/underlined]
[Underlined] JAM ROLY-POLY. [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] HOT MINCE TARTS: TOASTED MUFFINS: [deleted] C [/deleted] [/underlined]
[Underlined] CAKES AND BISCUITS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER[/underlined]
[Underlined] FISH AND CHIPS [/underlined]
[Underlined] WEDNESDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST [/underlined]
[Underlined] PORRIDGE [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED KIDNEY: BACON: EGGS [/underlined]
[Underlined] BISCUITS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER. [/underlined]
[Underlined] LANCASHIRE HOT-POT [/underlined]
[Underlined] PANCAKES WITH JAM. [/underlined]
[Underlined] BISCUITS AND COFFEE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED SKATE [/underlined]
[Underlined] CAKES AND BISCUITS [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER. [/underlined]
[Underlined] WELSH RAREBIT. [/underlined]
[Underlined] THURSDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST [/underlined]
[Underlined] CORN FLAKES [/underlined]
[Underlined] JAM OMLETTE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED STEAK AND ONIONS: CHIPS: [/underlined]
[Underlined] APPLE FRITTERS AND CUSTARD [/underlined]
[Underlined] BISCUITS AND COFFEE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED KIPPERS [/underlined]
[Underlined] SANDWICHES: CAKES: BISCUITS [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER [/underlined]
[Underlined] FISH AND CHIPS [/underlined]
[Page break]
135
[Underlined] FRIDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST [/underlined]
[Underlined] PORRIDGE [/underlined]
[Underlined] STEWED KIDNEYS AND FRIED BREAD [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER [/underlined]
[Underlined] COLD HAM: GREEN SALAD WITH BOILED EGGS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] STEAMED PUDDINGS AND CUSTARD [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRUIT SALAD AND CREAM [/underlined]
[Underlined] CAKES AND BISCUITS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER [/underlined]
[Underlined] FISH AND CHIPS [/underlined]
[Underlined] BISCUITS AND CHEESE [/underlined]
[Underlined] SATURDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST [/underlined]
[Underlined] CORN FLAKES [/underlined]
[Underlined] HAM: FRIED LIVER: EGGS: TOMATOES [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER [/underlined]
[Underlined] STEWED NECK OF MUTTON [/underlined]
[Underlined] CHOCOLATE AND RAISIN TART WITH CREAM [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED SOLE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] SANDWICHES: CREAM CAKES: BISCUITS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER [/underlined]
[Underlined] FISH AND CHIPS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUNDAY [/underlined]
[Underlined] BREAKFAST [/underlined]
[Underlined] PORRIDGE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRIED KIDNEYS: HAM: EGGS: TOMATOES. [/underlined]
[Underlined] BISCUITS. [/underlined]
[Underlined] DINNER. [/underlined]
[Underlined] YORKSHIRE PUDDING: ROAST LAMB: ROAST POTATOES: VEG. IN. SEASON. [/underlined]
[Underlined] STEAMED FIG OR DATE PUDDING WITH BRANDY SAUCE. [/underlined]
[Underlined] TEA [/underlined]
[Underlined] HOME BAKED CAKES; SCONES AND BREAD. [/underlined]
[Underlined] FRESH CREAM CAKES: JAM AND SPREADS [/underlined]
[Underlined] SUPPER. [/underlined]
[Underlined] COLD MEAT SANDWICHES [/underlined]
N.B. Try to work in:- baked herrings, Millionaire pie
[Page break]
136
[Underlined] The Question of Food (Ctd) [/underlined]
Whilst these discussions were taking places [sic] many new dishes were heard of and a list of these with a description as close as possible is prepared below.
Bacon or Ham, fried with honey or syrup.
The syrup is spread on the ham, thinly, before frying.
Tomato delicacies. Cut the top [deleted] atoes in two [/deleted] and scoop out the inside. Mix the inside with either, cheese, chopped meat or anything similar Heat and fill up the [deleted] halves of [/deleted] tomato.
[Underlined] Ice Cream Cake [/underlined] Take a piece of fruit cake and cover with ice cream. Freeze as hard as possible in refrigerator. Prepare meringue mixture and cover the cake. Place in very hot oven for 1 1/2 minutes.
[Underlined] Ice Cream Fritters [/underlined] Dip a piece of ice cream into pancake mixture and drop into boiling fat for 1 1/2 mins.
Boil an egg and cut off the top. Scoop out the yolk and mix with butter and milk, and place back in the egg.
[Underlined] Buck Rarebit. [/underlined] Welsh rarebit on toast with egg broken over grilled. Bacon may also be added.
[Underlined] Coffee Cream Money [/underlined] Cream 2oz butter & 2 Tablespoons of sugar in a warm bowl. Add 1 beaten egg, 4 tablespoons of milk, 3 tablespoons of coffee essence, with [sic] cake or crushed biscuit enough to thicken mixture. Beat fiercely in warm place till quite smooth and pour into mould.
[Underlined] Sham Virginia Ham [/underlined] Mix 1/2 lb finely minced ham or spam, with 1/4 lb of flour and enough milk to make a stiff dough. Shape into flat cakes, dip in brown sugar and fry or bake in butter. Serve with fried egg on top and baked beans.
[Underlined] Porridge Fried [/underlined] Fry thick cold porridge in hot butter. Serve with jam, honey or sugar, surrounded by fruit (banana slices or fritters etc) Cover with cream.
[Underlined] Butter Scotch Pie [/underlined] Bring to a boil a mixture of 2 cup of milk, 1 cup brown sugar, 4 tablespoons butter, 1/2 tablespoon vanilla, pinch of salt. Beat 3 eggs in 9 tablespoons of milk and mix into a paste with 3 1/2 tablespoons of flour. Mix butter and egg mixtures together beating to evenness. Stir till thick. Pour into pastry pie.
[Page break]
137
[Underlined] Blueberry Fritters [/underlined] (with lamb) Take 3 tablespoons of sugar, 1 cup of flour, 1 1/2 tablespoons of baking powder, 1/3 teaspoon of salt. Add 1 egg beaten with 1/3 cup of milk and stir till smooth. Add 1 cup of blueberries. Drop from spoon into baking pan of boiling fat. Drain on paper and dust with fine sugar before serving with meat.
[Underlined] Kidney Omelette [/underlined] Chop kidneys very fine. Put 1/2 into saucepan and crush. Add water to cover and simmer for 1/2 hour. Fry remainder of kidney for 5 mins with finely chopped onion and butter. Add to saucepan, with 1 teaspoon of sherry or teaspoon of ginger powder. Stir and leave to simmer. Make ordinary omelette and fold in kidney and gravy. If necessary, use flour to thicken gravy.
[Underlined] Blueberry Muffins [/underlined] Sift 2 cups of flour, 3 tablespoons of sugar, 1/2 teaspoon salt and 4 teaspoons of baking powder. Add to this slowly, 1 cup of milk beaten with one egg, and 2 tablespoons of melted butter. Add 1 cup of ripe blueberries and bake in greased pan in oven.
[Underlined] Champagne Cider [/underlined] Add 1/5 pint of brandy to 1/2 gall cider and 1/5 cup honey. Let it stand for 2 weeks. After bottling let It stand 1 night before serving.
[Underlined] Blackberry Brandy. [/underlined] 1/2 pt blackberry juice boiled to half with 3/4 lb of sugar. Add to 1 qrt of brandy, 1 tsp of glycerine and 1 tsp of gum arabic.
[Underlined] Egg soup [/underlined] Beat 2 eggs in basin. Boil 1 pint of stock and add 1 tablespoon lard or oil, 1 tablespoon of soya bean sauce. Pour over beaten egg and stir gently till egg is cooked.
[Underlined] Golden Drop [/underlined] Take 1 thick slice of bread and scoop a tablespoonful out of centre. Fry side with hollow. Then turn and break an egg into the hollow and fry.
[Underlined] Stuffed Potato [/underlined] Bake a large potato. Cut off one end and scoop out [missing words]. Mix with cheese, chopped ham, or meat and place back into [missing words] oven to heat. Serve with what is left of potato after [missing words]
[Missing words] pastry mixture as for Cornish Pastie. [Missing words] ocolate in centre of a round of pastry [missing words]
[Page break]
138
[Underlined] Pineapple Float [/underlined] Line Pie dish with thick pastry. (puff) Bake, and pour in thick chocolate. Place full slices of pineapple on top and allow to set. Serve cold with thick cream.
[Underlined] Single Sue [/underlined] Place layer of broken sponge cake about 1” thick in greased pie dish. Cover with thick sweet creamed rice. Another layer of sponge cake covered with boiled figs and dates. More sponge cake and thick layer of jam. Cover with sponge cake and bake in oven till brown. Serve with sweet chocolate sauce.
[Underlined] John Tommy Nelson Cake. [/underlined] Line pie dish with puff pastry and bake. Cover with thick layer of black treacle mixed with bread crumbs. Cook for 10 mins. Cover with layer of chopped dates & raisins & nuts. Cook for further 10 mins. Serve hot with cream.
[Underlined] Tolga Rice. (Date & meat [/underlined] mixture. Cook 2 lbs of rice in milk. Flavour with vanilla. Add 1 lb chopped dates, pieces of chopped mutton, 2 chopped red peppers, 1/4 lb ginger. Mix in mutton gravy mixed with 1/4 lb of honey.
[Underlined] Oyster Omelette [/underlined] Take 1 doz eggs, 1 doz oysters, 1 cup diced ham, 1/2 cup diced onions, 1 cup toast breadcrumbs, chopped parsley salt & pepper. Fry oysters etc first, then place in egg mixture & fry as omelette
[Underlined] Flesh Pancake. Dip [/underlined] ham into very thick pancake mixture & fry.
[Underlined] Millionaire Pie [/underlined] Take 3 unopened tins Nestles milk, place in saucepan & boil for 1/2 hour. Open tins & mix milk with 3 beaten yolks of eggs. Pour mixture into pie shell. Beat whites of eggs, add sugar and apply over top to form meringue mixture. Bake in oven till brown.
[Underlined] Tommy Tiddlers [/underlined] Prepare as pastry a pancake batter. Take previously fried sausages, cover with pastry & fry in deep fat. Serve with creamed potatoes & fried onions.
[Underlined] Manchester Pie [/underlined] Line pie dish with
[Bottom part missing as with previous (torn) page]
[Page break]
139
[Underlined] Baked or Steamed Apple & Chocolate Roll [/underlined] Prepare pastry, Roll out and cover with chocolate. Roll up. Roll out second piece and cover with chopped sweetened apples. Place chocolate roll on top and roll up together. Steam for 2 hours or bake in hot oven for 45 minutes. Serve hot with custard. [Indecipherable word] be made with jam & other fruit.
[Underlined] Crepe Suzette [/underlined] Make pancakes in ordinary way. Spread with jam and roll. Place in oven for 5 mins. Serve hot with cream.
[Underlined] Cheese & Potato Pie [/underlined] Cook potatoes & cream with milk & butter and large amount of grated cheese. Place layer on bottom of greased pie dish . Layer of sliced tomatoes, potatoes: cover with strips of bacon. Place in hot oven till bacon is crisp. Serve hot.
[Underlined] Chocolate Soufflé [/underlined] Take whites & yolks of 12 eggs; beat with chocolate and heavy cream, to whipped cream consistency. Add icing sugar and place in deep dish. Bake for 5 mins in very hot oven. Serve at once
[Underlined] Marrons Glacé [/underlined] Boil Chestnuts (in jackets) for 5-10 minutes. Shell & skin. Use double amount of sugar. Pour over chestnuts. 1/4 lb of butter, 2 pts milk. Place in pan and boil until whole thing is syrup. Remove and let dry on cooking board.
[Page break]
140 Ctd from 125
[Deleted] Ctd from 125 [/deleted]
ready for the move. Details were given later. There are 75 lorries coming tomorrow and they are to make 2 trips taking 25 each truck. 30 of these lorries have been allocated to the British- 15 to the N.C.O.s, 10 to the Army and 5 to the officers. We are to take 10 Norwegians and 15 British in each of our trucks. The list of order of going will be prepared according to length od P.O.W. service etc.
News received of German Army’s capitulation in Holland and Denmark.
[Underlined] MAY 5 [/underlined] Main convoy did not arrive, but a convoy of ambulances came and took away all the American and a few of the British sick. An American Captain arrived too and said that the main convoy would be here tomorrow.
Received an issue of 1 Canadian parcel to a mess of 20 and a few American “K” rations. Constituted enough for one meal per man.
[Underlined] MAY 6 [/underlined] 22 of the trucks arrived during the day, but the Russians refused to allowed [sic] anyone to leave. When some of the Americans began to load up, the Russians fired over their heads to prevent them going. The situation is beginning to look serious. We are all pretty well browned off. After all, here we are, two weeks after liberation and still kicking our heels around here. Our Red Cross food is all out and the Russian rations are none too reliable. We are hoping that something is done very quickly.
[Underlined] MAY 7 [/underlined] 100 lorries arrived in Luckenwalde today. The Russians still refused to allow us to go. Amid all the confusion of rumours etc., came the news that the war was over. No-one was the least bit excited in fact I should say that the chaps in this camp were about the most miserable in Europe today.
The SBO sent a letter to the Russian o/c and later left in a jeep for Sagan (H.Q. of Marshal Koniyev) a copy of which can be found on Page 106. Reg King managed to get away on a lorry which left this evening.
[Underlined] MAY 8 V.E. DAY [/underlined] The day for which we have waited so very long, and a day full of events for us here. The lorries which came to take us out of here have returned to the American lines empty. Several attempts were made to jump the lorries and indeed some chaps succeeded, only to be ordered off further down the road. Some lorries left early this morning
[Page break]
143
taking a lot of the boys with them. We were informed by the Russians that anyone found outside the boundaries of the camp in future will be treated as civilians and will be interned. It appears that the Americans definitely had no official order to evacuate us and were using their own initiative. And so we now have to wait until the Russians are ready to evacuate us in their own way. A Russian colonel had a series of conferences with the SBO and returned to his H.Q. late at night to report that we were all ready for evacuation, and so once again we settled down to wait.
All day long we heard over the wireless reports of the celebrations in England and these succeeded in making us even more miserable than before. We think that we could easily have been home for these celebrations. It only means that our celebrations are postponed however, because we shall have ours upon our return.
I had my first swim of “Konegiedom” when I swam in the lake just by the camp.
[Underlined] MAY 9 [/underlined] The SBO held a parade this morning to thank us for behaving so well. A convoy of Russian lorries arrived at the camp and while no one knows the exact reason for their arrival, it is hoped that they are here to take is away immediately the official permission comes through.
A message was broadcast before the news from England this morning to Stalag Luft I at Barth telling them that they must remain where they are, so apparently they are in the same position as we are. They have my sympathies.
[Underlined] MAY 12 [/underlined] French refugees moved from Vorlager to Joseph Stalin Camp. We are to move into Vorlager tomorrow.
[Underlined] MAY 13 [/underlined] Moved into Vorlager. The huts were in a filthy condition and we had lots of cleaning out to do before actually moving in. There were no beds in our hut and the Frenchmen had been sleeping on straw. The straw was flea-ridden so we took it all out and burnt it. We managed to find enough two tier beds for our room but had to examine them very carefully as most of the beds were swarming with bed-bugs. The beds we have however, were clean enough.
[Underlined] MAY 15 [/underlined] B.B.C. news said that there were still over a million prisoners still in Germany most of whom were in Russian occupied territory, so now we begin to see why we are so long in being repatriated.
[Underlined] MAY 18 [/underlined] Reg Ryden came to see me today about forming a band. We [indecipherable word]
C.T.D. PAGE 150
[Page break]
144
Joe Brown
23 Houndslow [sic] Av.
Houndslow [sic]
[Underlined] Middlesex [/underlined]
M Reid
12, Greenwell Place.
Govan.
[Underlined] Glasgow. [/underlined]
[Page break]
145
W.A. McILROY.
“FINNIS”
DROMARA.
Co DOWN.
N. IRELAND.
TEL. DRO: 101.
John C. Bridger
1, Broadway
Tynemouth.
Tel. N. Shields 74.
Robert C Forrester,
33 Cairnie Loan
Arbroath,
Angus,
Scotland.
L. Whitely
10, Ladysmith St,
Shaw Heath,
Stockport
Cheshire
REX K BENNETT,
82 GRACEFIELD GDNS
STREATHAM
LONDON
SW16
STR 1809.
Joseph LA FORTe
721 UNION ST
BKLYN, N.Y.
F.G. SMITH,
30, Yeovil Close
ORPINGTON, Kent.
The HATTON PRESS, Ltd,
72-8. Fleet St. London, E.C.4.
Advertising. Books. Optical Products.
WESTON CRAIG
8, LOUDON ST.,
HARTON COLLIERY,
SOUTH SHIELDS.
DOUGLAS HARRISON,
8 ST. GEORGE’S CRES.
MONKSEATON.
[Page break]
146
[Signatures]
[Page break]
147
[Signatures]
148
F/O E A WRAKE,
3, Drive Mansions,
Fulham Road,
London, S.W. 6.
[Indecipherable name] F/L
Windsor
Ontario
Canada
[Indecipherable word] Pincher Creek
F/O H.R. Mossop D.F.C.
Elloe Lodge
Holbeach
Lincolnshire
H.K. Hamilton F/L J9934
Apt. 502, Claridge Apts,
1 Clarendon Ave,
Toronto, Ont.
Canada.
F/O A.P. Hennessy.
84 Church Street
Kensington
London W. 8.
F/O J Meek
83 Jamieson Ave
Toronto Ont
278 Washington Ave
Winnipeg Man.
P.V. Boyle.
Dinver
Portpatrick,
Stranraer,
Scotland.
F/Lt T D Hughes.
16 Clerkdale St
Walton
Liverpool 4
E. H. Stephenson
22, Clarendon Gardens,
Wembley
Middlesex
1st LT. G. E. Gallagher
2341 Kemper Lane
Cincinnati
OHIO
U.S.A.
A.K. Baker.
“Stocker’s House”,
Rickmansworth,
Herts.
P.& O. Coryton
The Rectory
Bonchurch
Isle of Wight
[Page break]
149
William W. Fannon
113 Boston St.
Guilford, Conn.
U.S.A.
TED. WOODE
8 HORSLEY TERR.
TYNEMOUTH,
NORTHUMB’D
Wm J. Murdock
709 – 2nd Ave.
LAUREL
MISS. USA.
GRADON GLEN-DAVISON
8. WINDSOR TERR
NEWCASTLE-ON-TYNE. 2.
J.H. Moss
8, Munden Grove,
Watford,
[Underlined] Herts, England [/underlined]
W.J. NICHOLSON (Nicky)
23 WHITBY ST.
NORTH SHIELDS.
W. Reid
97 Swinton Crescent,
Baillieston
Glasgow
26.1.45. Scotland
Arthur E. Adams. “ZEKE”
49 Fullbrook Road
Walsall,
Staffs.
R.M. KING
C/O BIRCHFIELD
MIDDLE GREEN
LANGLEY
SLOUGH
BUCKS
Graham J. Macrae,
Windgarth,
Andover Road, North,
Winchester,
Hants
G.K. CHAPMAN
19, OSWIN TER.,
BALKWELL,
NORTH SHIELDS
NORTHUMBERLAND.
REGINALD E. RYDER,
97, BRADFORD ROAD WEST,
BATLEY, YORKS.
TRAIN TO LEEDS, GO OUT OF CENTRAL STATION & TAKE 1ST TURNING [indecipherable words] BUS TO BATLEY PARK GATE ( indecipherable words]
[Page break]
150
a few musicians and had a rehearsal. At the rehearsal we were asked to play for a [sic] RAF. dance the next night. So we will have to do a lot of work tomorrow to get everything on trim.
Rumours still fly around and every day brings fresh rumours of when we shall move, but we never seem any nearer moving.
The food situation is terrible. While we have plenty of bread, we have no margarine, sugar or brews. We have had little odd issues of spreads but these are [underlined] very [/underlined] small - a very little jam and cheese. The cheese is mostly in tubes but we have also had cheese powder which has to be mixed with water. The soup comes up regularly each lunch time, but on the whole the diet is very unappetising, just bread, cheese and water for every meal.
[Underlined] MAY 19 [/underlined] Just before our dance was due to start, the sirens sounded the recall signal and it was announced that the repatriation papers had been signed and that the Russians [underlined] hoped [/underlined] to start evacuating tomorrow. Naturally with such good news, the dance went with a terrific swing and was a great success in spite of the fact that there were only 35 women and about 300 men. It finished at 2 A.M. and by that time the boys were almost played out. Still, it was great fun to play at a dance again.
[Underlined] MAY 20 [/underlined] True to their word, the Russians rolled up with their trucks at 10 A.M. By 1.30 we were all aboard and ready to go. The journey to the ELBE was hampered by demolitions etc, but we arrived at the river at 6. PM. We dismounted and marched across a pontoon bridge to the other side where American lorries were waiting for us. These took us to a camp near HALLE where we arrived at about 11.30 American time (12.30 Russian time). [Deleted] We passed [indecipherable word] [/deleted] On the journey south we passed through several villages, all of which showed signs of having been the scene of fighting. Some were very badly damaged.
On arrival at the camp, we filled in a small form, were formed into groups of 25 and taken to billets. After a wash-up we went to the dining hall for a meal of Spaghetti and tomatoes and lovely [underlined] white [/underlined] bread and good strong, sweet coffee, after which we retired to bed about 2.30 A.M.
[Underlined] MAY 21 [/underlined] Wakened for breakfast at 6 A.M. Breakfast consisted of rice, and stewed fruit. The rice was lovely, rich, sweet, unbelievable. We also had white bread and a large portion of [indecipherable word] & butter. After our breakfast we came back to the barracks to sleep and await evacuation
[Page break]
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We received an issue of 40 cigarettes; I oz bar of chocolate and a box of matches. In the afternoon we saw a “flick” ‘[indecipherable word] was a Lady’. In the evening we had to collect some Red Cross things. I had a handkerchief: a pipe, 2ozs tobacco; 1/4 lb chocolate, a packet of chewing gum, a tooth-brush and tooth paste. We then went to see another film. Laurel & Hardy in “Looking for Trouble”. For dinner at night we had pork chop, beans and spinach. Rice (creamed) and fruit. A lovely meal.
[Underlined] MAY 22 [/underlined] Went for breakfast at 6 A.M. After breakfast one of the boys and I walked round the airfield to look at the Goon a/c. All had been destroyed, the cockpit in each having been completely burnt out. Very interesting nevertheless. Came back to hear that we were on 3 hour readiness and liable to leave after lunch. Nothing happened however and in the evening we went to the films to see a skating & musical film.
[Underlined] MAY 23 [/underlined] [Deleted] I [/deleted] Still on stand-by. A few chaps got away today but the weather clamped down later and it stopped any more going.
U.S.O. show in afternoon. Very good. Film in evening, Charles Laughton in “Suspect”. Very good.
[Underlined] MAY 24 [/underlined] Weather still bad this morning. Frank and I had a walk around the airfield. Came back and went for [indecipherable word]. Film in the afternoon “Having a lovely time”. Pat O’Brien, Carole Landers. Not very good. Weather cleared up about 5 o’clock.
[Underlined] MAY 25 [/underlined] Raining heavily when we rose at 6 A.M. but cleared up about 10 A.M. Just as we went to lunch at 12 a lot of aircraft arrived and we were told in the dining hall that we should probably be leaving this afternoon. In the afternoon we were marched to the airfield where the planes were loading. We joined the queue and were second in line when the last of the aircraft took off. So one more great disappointment was added to our list. Each one seems to get worse. This time it was annoying because a lot of chaps who came in the night after us got away today. We are very cynical now and believe nothing we hear until something happens to confirm it.
[Underlined] MAY 26 [/underlined]
[Page break]
[Envelope with contents]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Text
Text. Diary
Artwork
Map
Photograph
Text. Poetry
Identifier
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SRutherfordRL146342v1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Title
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Les Rutherford's prisoner of war diary
F/O R.L. RUTHERFORD. R.A.F. 146342 P.O.W. 3276
A WARTIME LOG
Description
An account of the resource
Prisoner of war diary of Les Rutherford, captured the 20 December 1943 and then detained at Stalag Luft 3 (Belaria). It consists mostly of sketches and cartoons but also information on camp life, photographs and German newspaper cuttings. The diary includes the crests of Sagan, Stalag Luft 3, Belaria camp; 50 Squadron. Cartoons of various events and characters. Drawings of Lancaster; Spitfire; Halifax; Wellington; Mustang I aircraft. Selection of poems by different authors about Bomber Command, Escape and Luckenwalde. Memorial to those shot after escaping from Stalag Luft 3, Sagan. Drawings of the camp and its accommodation. Details, photos and programmes of shows held at the prison camp. Details of the contents of the Red cross parcels from Great Britain, Canada, the United States and New Zealand, including German rations for one week. Menus for several meals including Christmas Day. Description of a typical day at Belaria and Luckenwalde. Extracts from POW’s letters. Day to day diary of life in the camps including the march from Sagan to Luckenwalde, passing through Sagan, Surau, Muskau and Spremberg thence by train to Luckenwalde. Maps showing the river Rhine and its tributaries and maps showing Berlin area and the rivers flowing around it and also shows the American and Russian fronts prior to liberation. Name and address of several fellow prisoners of War. Autograph pages of fellow prisoners. Pasted newspaper cuttings are about V-1, death notices, photos of British airborne troops that had landed behind German lines but been captured, two titles of German newspapers both dated 3 September 1944 but with no editorial or news content, a report of the best performances from 1944 Swedish Swimming Championship. There is a cartoon showing the Grim Reaper advancing on top of an American Tank with the word ‘Famine’ across his chest: while another cartoon shows a brutish USSR in the form of a gorilla destroying four men representing East European countries while Churchill and Roosevelt look on and comment on the beast’s playfulness. A clipping exhorts Germans not to gossip because it helps the Allied bombing attacks. The diary was kept at the Lincolnshire Archives until August 1987, when it was withdrawn by the owner.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Les Rutherford
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alan Pinchbeck
Dianne Kinsella
Sally Des Forges
Jon-Paul Jones
Jan Morgan
Emily Jennings
Laura Morgan
Ashley Jacobs
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Poland
Germany--Luckenwalde
Poland--Żagań
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
50 Squadron
arts and crafts
bombing
displaced person
entertainment
escaping
evading
Halifax
Lancaster
P-47
P-51
prisoner of war
propaganda
Red Cross
shot down
Spitfire
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 3
the long march
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/106/2232/LBriggsDW56124v1.1.pdf
bd80d29b93944ac5a20236df4e418bc8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Briggs, Donald
Donald W Briggs
D W Briggs
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-27
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Briggs, DW
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with flight engineer Donald Ward Briggs (1924 - 2018), his logbook, memoirs and 16 wartime and post war photographs. He completed 62 operations with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying from RAF Upwood. Post war, Donald Briggs retrained as a pilot flying Meteors and Canberras. He eventually joined the V-Force on Valiants and was the co-pilot for the third British hydrogen bomb test at Malden Island in 1957.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Donald Briggs and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LBriggsDW56124v1
Title
A name given to the resource
Donald Briggs' log book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One handwritten booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-06-11
1944-06-12
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-17
1944-06-24
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-07-02
1944-07-07
1944-07-08
1944-07-10
1944-07-12
1944-07-13
1944-07-14
1944-07-18
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-03
1944-08-05
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-12
1944-08-13
1944-08-15
1944-08-16
1944-08-17
1944-08-18
1944-08-19
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-08-31
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-11-18
1944-11-28
1944-11-30
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-29
1945-01-02
1945-01-03
1945-01-04
1945-01-05
1945-01-06
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-03-01
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-09
1945-03-12
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-19
1945-03-20
1945-03-22
1945-03-24
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Cambridgeshire
France--Bayeux
France--Caen
France--Calais
France--Lens
France--Royan
France--Saint-Lô
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dessau (Dessau)
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Goch
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Koblenz
Germany--Leuna
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Soest
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Zeitz
Netherlands--Eindhoven
Poland--Szczecin
Germany
Netherlands
France
Poland
England--Sussex
Germany--Mannheim
France--Montdidier (Hauts-de-France)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Cap Gris Nez
France--Nucourt
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Briggs served as a flight engineer with 156 Squadron Pathfinders flying Lancasters from RAF Upwood between 27 May 1944 and 31 March 1945. The incomplete log book includes 62 daylight and night time operations to French, German, Dutch and Polish targets: battle fronts, Bayeux, Bois de Cassin, Chemnitz, Coblenz, Caen, Cagny, Calais, Cannantre, Cap Gris Nez (Calais), Disemont, Eindohven, Foret de Nieppe, Fort d’Englos, Harpenerweg, Hemmingstadt, Hildersheim, Lens, Lumbacs, Middel Straete, Miseburg oil refinery, Moerdish bridges, Montdidier, Nucourt, Nurnburg, Pollitz, Royan, Royen, Saint-Lô, St Philbert, Bochum, Chemnitz, Dessau, Dortmund, Dresden, Duisburg, Essen, Goch, Hamburg, Hanau, Hannover, Kiel, Kleve, Koblenz, Leuna, Mannheim, Münster, Neuss, Osnabrück, Renescure, Russleheim, Saarbrucken, Soest, Stuttgart, Szczecin, Vaires near Paris and Zeitz. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Neal, Wing Commander Bingham-Hall and Flight Lieutenant Williams.
156 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
flight engineer
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 3
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Upwood
tactical support for Normandy troops
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/194/3326/PAdamsHG1704.1.jpg
980d8be504d2da9355ce447405cd8c1f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/194/3326/AAdamsHG170215.1.mp3
041f97f2eedf07da91f07fc45cf06065
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adams, Herbert
Herbert Adams
H Adams
Herbert G Adams
Description
An account of the resource
88 items. Collection concerns Herbert George Adams DFC, Legion d'Honour (b. 1924, 424509 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 467 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, photographs of people and places, several memoirs about his training and bombing operations, letters to his family, his flying logbook and notes on navigation.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Herbert Adams and catalogued by Nigel Huckins and Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Adams, HG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RG: This is an interview with Herbert Adams for the International Bomber Command Centre on Wednesday the 15th of February 2017 at his home in Kooringal, Wagga, New South Wales, Australia.
LD: The name of the interviewers.
RG: Interviewers are Rob Gray and Lucie Davison.
LD: Alright. All good. Ok.
RG: Off you go.
LD: So, you were born near Gulgong.
HA: That’s right.
LD: New South Wales.
HA: Yeah.
LD: Were you born in town or on a farm? Or where?
HA: No.
LD: What kind of area did you grow up in?
HA: My father had a stock and station agency and carrying business in Birriwa.
LD: Yeah.
HA: Very small. You wouldn’t see it now if you went through it [laughs] but it was a prosperous little district. I went to primary school there. One teacher school.
LD: And did you work there or did you leave?
HA: No.
LD: Leave home to go to work before you signed up?
HA: When I was old enough I went to high school at Mudgee for five years — where I boarded. And in 1938 dad sold the agency and bought a farm at Mendooran.
LD: Oh yes.
HA: And that’s where I reckoned I lived for a while because after I came back from the war they were still on the farm. And in fact, they sold the farm at the end of the 1946 drought and moved into town. And my brother and I took up share farming at Mendooran.
LD: Right.
RG: That town being Mudgee or —? That town being Mudgee or —?
HA: Not Mudgee. It was Mendooran, sort of east of Dubbo. South of Coonabarabran.
RG: Right. Ok. Yeah.
HA: We did that for three years and then I took on carrying for about a year and a half. Carting cement from Kandos to Sydney.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And then I bought a sports store in Mudgee.
LD: Oh right.
RG: Ok.
HA: Where I strung tennis rackets and fixed cricket bats, sold toys and stuff like that for seven or eight years. Got married and had three kids there. Didn’t know what to do with myself when I sold the sports store so I went to teacher’s college in Sydney for a year.
LD: Oh. Wow.
RG: Ok.
HA: Boarded with me sister. Left my family at Mudgee and got appointed to Mudgee to teach.
LD: Well that was handy wasn’t it?
HA: Well [laughs] we were asked to give preferences of where we wanted to teach and I said ‘Mudgee. Mudgee. Mudgee.’ And they said, ‘Well you’re married and an ex-serviceman and you live there. If necessary we’ll move someone.’ Which they did.
LD: Oh.
RG: Oh. yeah. Very good.
HA: They moved a first year out. A young fella.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Our From Mudgee to Muswellbrook or Maitland or somewhere over there.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And I taught junior maths and, senior and junior biology for five years.
RG: Right. Ok.
HA: At the same time, I did a degree from Armidale by correspondence.
RG: A degree in —?
HA: Just a BA degree with a major in maths and education. Tried to get a science degree out of them but they wouldn’t agree to an external student.
RG: Oh for science.
HA: Getting a science degree even though I could have had more science units.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Than what they could provide from Armidale.
RG: It’s odd isn’t it? Perhaps it required laboratory work or something at Armidale or something like that.
HA: I don’t know, just one of those regulations.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Regulations you can’t undo.
RG: Yeah. I was going to say with your service background to put down Mudgee, Mudgee Mudgee you were liable to be sent to Coonabarabran or somewhere. Anyway.
HA: Yeah. So, I taught at Mudgee there for five years and then I resigned and joined the air force a second time. Came to Wagga.
RG: Oh. Ok.
LD: Oh right.
HA: As an education officer out here at Forest Hill.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Oh excellent.
HA: Which I did for just on three years.
RG: What were you teaching in the air force?
HA: First two years — adult trainees.
RG: Yeah.
HA: It was basic maths, physics and [Electrical] tech.
RG: Yeah.
HA: In the second year I was teaching fellas who didn’t want to be instructors to be instructors [laughs]
RG: Yeah. I was one of those. Yeah.
HA: It was an experience.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And I learnt more about teaching in that year than I did at teacher college. For sure.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Yeah.
HA: And then —
LD: That must have been most interesting. Going back into the air force again after all that time.
HA: It was, yeah, because I was straight away a flight lieutenant.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And I did Anzac Day addresses and things like that.
RG: When was that? When did you go back into the air force?
HA: ’65 ‘66. ’67.
RG: Right. So, twenty years after you left.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LD: That would have been fascinating.
RG: Have we got — sorry. Have we got Bert’s date of birth? Anywhere?
LD: Oh. No. What’s your date of birth, Bert?
HA: 23rd of the 2nd ’24.
LD: Ok.
HA: So, I’ll be ninety three next week.
LD: Wow. So, did you work before joining the air force the first time?
HA: Yes. I worked in Sydney for a year and a half. The local government department in Bridge Street.
LD: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Didn’t like it much. Didn’t get much money.
RG: This was as a clerk or —
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Junior clerk. And when they brought in compulsory service for the army I was very keen to get in because six shillings a day was big money.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Like, I was paying board in Sydney and train fares and had nothing left. I couldn’t even play hockey because I didn’t have enough money to go and play hockey every weekend.
RG: Right. Yeah. So that, what year was that that you —?
HA: 1941 and 1942.
RG: So, so you were called up in —
HA: ’42.
RG: ’42.
HA: Yeah.
LD: So, you were called up in to the army initially.
HA: Yeah. Yeah.
RG: Where did you go to?
HA: Went to Dubbo and did the infantry training for a month and then was invited, if you could drive a truck, to go to Moorebank near Liverpool and do a motor-school for a month.
RG: Right.
HA: A lot of stuff with Bren gun carriers.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And internal, whatever you call it. A written exam at the end of it. We had lectures at night and that sort of thing. Some of the fellas could barely read and write and they were in the army. I’d finished High School with good passes.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yes.
HA: I came top of the course.
LD: Yeah.
HA: I was invited to go to Sydney Tech College for six months and come out as a warrant officer instructor.
RG: Right.
HA: At aged eighteen.
RG: Ok. That was advanced promotion.
HA: I thought about it very seriously.
RG: You would have done. We’re talking about six shillings being good money.
HA: Anyway, I was already on the reserve for aircrew so when that came up I got out of the army.
LD: Oh right.
RG: So, did you volunteer for the reserve for the aircrew? Did you do that before you joined up? Or —
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
HA: As a matter of fact, when Air Training Corps first formed, late in 1941 I think it was.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I was one of the first in.
RG: Right.
HA: And that was supposed to get you a month or two precedence on the, on the waiting list. There was a big waiting list for aircrew.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Eight months. Something like that.
RG: So did you do — we’ve read Andy, sorry, Adrian Child, sorry Ray child — Charlwood sorry.
HA: I’ve read two of his books.
RG: Yeah. And his way, he did it he came in through the ATS got assessed, got accepted, sent home and then came back later and did some training and then got sent home again and then went and did his specialist — his navigator’s training was it? Did something similar happen to you? Did you like get accepted and sent home again?
HA: No. Air Training Corps was only part time stuff up at Ashfield. Never got any uniform.
RG: Oh. This is not the ATS —this is Air Training Corps. Yeah. Ok. Sorry. Yeah. Different.
HA: Sorry. Wrong thing.
RG: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking of the ATS. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Yeah. Where we were up to?
RG: So, Ashfield.
HA: Ashfield.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah.
LD: So, which ITS did you end up going to?
HA: Bradfield.
LD: Oh right.
HA: Number 2.
LD: Oh my God. That’s where Ken was.
RG: That’s where Ken was. Yeah.
LD: I have a relative who was there.
HA: Yeah.
LD: Ken Glover.
HA: I’ve got an idea as I can remember that name. I was in 32 course for a start.
LD: I’m not sure what course he was in.
RG: No. He —
LD: I haven’t been able to find that out.
RG: He became a rear gunner. He was in 463. And he was killed on Christmas Eve ‘43 over Berlin.
LD: He started out in 207 Squadron.
RG: Yeah. He started out in 207 RAF.
HA: Yeah. He was a bit earlier at Bradfield than me if he was on Berlin raids.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah. He left [pause] he left Australia like January ’42.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah.
RG: ‘43. He was killed at the end of ’43.
LD: Oh, I’m getting mixed up.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
HA: Yeah. There may have been another Glover that I met somewhere along the way.
RG: I’m sure there were scads of them really. Yeah.
LD: Yeah.
HA: I actually had a time. I got the mumps while I was there and went out to Prince Henry Hospital. Came back and I found myself in 33 course. And then they said, ‘They need more fellas at the training places. We’re going to do a rushed course so that you can go out with 32 course again.’
RG: Yeah.
HA: ‘Providing you’re quick enough at Morse.’
RG: Yeah.
HA: And because I’d been in the Air Training Corps I was fast enough at Morse.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah.
HA: So, I ended up with 32 course at Bradfield. And then came to Cootamundra.
LD: Yes.
HA: 1 AOS. I didn’t even get inside the gate. We were throwing kit bags up on to a truck and I collapsed and found myself in hospital.
RG: As a result of the mumps?
HA: Woke up the next day with terrible trouble with appendicitis.
RG: Oh, ok. Yeah.
HA: I was delirious for a few days and a bit lucky to survive I think because penicillin was, luckily, available.
LD: Yeah.
HA: In those days.
RG: Yeah. And only just available too. Yeah.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And so, I was in the hospital for a month with a hole with a rubber tube gushing out rubbish. Finally sent home, I think for Christmas, still with a hole in my belly. And —
RG: So, this is Christmas ‘41
HA: ‘42
RG: ‘42.
HA: ‘42. Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And they said, ‘By the way you will have to come back to hospital next year and have your appendix out.’
LD: What?
RG: They hadn’t done it.
HA: They didn’t take it out. All they’d done was drain all the muck out of it to treat it.
LD: Oh of course. They needed to drain everything ‘cause if they tried to operate with —
RG: The poison would have got into the bloodstream. Yeah.
LD: Yes. Yes.
RG: Lucie is an ex-nurse so.
HA: Yeah.
HA: My wife’s an ex-nurse too.
LD: We’re good people [laughs]
HA: So, I came out of hospital and did some time with 35 course and helped in the sick quarters for a while.
RG: This is filling in time before the next observers course.
HA: Yeah. Then I came down to Wagga.
RG: So, you didn’t actually get to Cootamundra at all. You were posted there but didn’t get there.
HA: Oh yes. When I come out of hospital I was put on to 35 course.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And I went to lectures and did one flight with them. And then they said but you’ve got to go and get your appendix out so I came to the RAAF hospital out here at Forest Hill which hadn’t long been opened and had my appendix out. And went back and fooled around until 38 course started.
LD: [laughs] They must have been wondering if they were ever going to get rid of you.
RG: Yeah. So instead of three months it was nine months.
LD: Oh right.
HA: At Cootamundra.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Mind you that kept you out of the worst of it.
HA: It may have kept me out of going to the islands or somewhere like that, you know.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Yes. Yeah.
RG: Or the Battle of Berlin as well. Yeah.
LD: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Anyway —
LD: Did you end up doing any of your training overseas or was it all done in Australia?
HA: Up to the wing stage — in Australia.
LD: Right.
HA: I did bomb aiming and gunnery at Evans Head for two months and then astro nav at Parkes for a month. And then after a bit of leave we got on a boat and went to San Francisco.
LD: Do you remember the name of the ship?
HA: The Mount Vernon. I think.
LD: Ok. Yeah. Did you go via New Zealand?
HA: No. Non-stop.
LD: Oh. Ok.
HA: And we got our sea legs I think because it was calm for the first week or so and then there was a big storm.
LD: Yeah.
HA: There were logs floating around in San Francisco harbour.
LD: Right.
RG: Did you leave from Sydney or Melbourne?
HA: From Sydney.
RG: Sydney. Yeah. By the way when you said you did one flight with 38 course.
HA: 35.
RG: 35. What sort of aircraft?
HA: Ansons.
RG: Ansons. Yeah. Ok.
HA: It was Fairey Battles at Evans Head and it was Ansons again at Parkes.
RG: Right. Yeah.
HA: Astro.
RG: Yeah.
LD: So were you happy to be a navigator or would you have preferred some other role? Because you said you did the gunnery course as well. Did you have any choice in this or —
HA: While we were at Bradfield park they asked us towards the end of the business which you’d like to be and nearly everybody wanted to be a pilot of course. The day that they did the coordination test I was at the dentist and so I missed that.
RG: [laughs] You had bad medical trouble there didn’t you [laughs]
HA: I had a lot of trouble with my teeth.
RG: Oh dear.
HA: And the test was to sit in a seat with rudder pedals and a joystick with a screen where somebody made a dot move around the screen at random and you had to chase it with your feet.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I knew I’d made a terrible mess of it. Partly because when I was a kid I had a flivver which you steered with your feet. If you wanted to go to the right you did that which is just the opposite.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: To what you want to do in an aeroplane.
RG: Sorry a flivver.
HA: A flivver.
RG: What’s a flivver? What —
HA: Well it had a handle on it like the trikes that they had on the railway.
RG: The ones that you cranked. Yes.
HA: Yes.
RG: Oh ok. I didn’t know they were called flivvers.
HA: Yeah. Anyway, so, I knew I made a mess of it so when they came to ask me what I wanted to do I said navigator. They said, ‘Why don’t you want to be a pilot?’ And I said, ‘Well I made a mess of the coordination test and I’m pretty good at maths and stuff.’ I didn’t tell them that a lot of fellas say, ‘I want to be a pilot,’ and they say, ‘Oh well. You can be a rear gunner.’
RG: Yeah. [laughs] Ok.
LD: Yes.
HA: So, I got in first.
RG: That was a smart move.
LD: Yes. Yeah. They were getting to be short of rear gunners, weren’t they? Very sadly.
HA: So, we got on a, oh there was only six hundred of us on the ship. Most of the people were American servicemen who were either ill or wounded. Coming back from the Pacific.
LD: Yeah.
HA: And so, when we got to San Francisco they said, ‘There’s sixty of you navigators,’ or observers as we were then. We had an O wing, ‘Who thought you were going to Canada to do a six months reconnaissance course. That’s been scrubbed. You are now going across to Britain for Bomber Command.’ So, we had to —
RG: Oh. So you might have ended up doing reconnaissance flights in Mosquitos, I presume. Or something of that nature.
HA: Probably in Liberators across the Atlantic I would think.
RG: Oh ok. Ok.
LD: Right.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Anyhow.
RG: Yeah.
HA: That was scrubbed and we got on a troop train and went across America to New York and got on a ship called the Isle de France.
RG: Ah yes. Famous vessel.
HA: On Christmas Eve.
RG: That’s Christmas Eve forty.
HA: ’43.
RG: ‘43 yeah.
LD: Oh right. Yeah.
RG: That was the night Ken was killed.
LD: Yes. Yeah.
HA: It got as far as the Statue of Liberty and broke down.
RG: [laughs] That was the French.
HA: And we thought thank goodness because we were right down below the waterline at the stern with the sides coming down like that.
RG: Oh yes. Yeah.
HA: And had to climb through round portholes all around.
RG: Hatches. Yeah.
HA: Vertical ladders to get up to the next deck.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Anyhow, they kept us there overnight. They gave us some sandwiches I think and then the next morning they said, ‘You can wait until we give you some more sandwiches and some pay. Or you can do without that. Go straight into New York where there’s likely to be people taking you home for Christmas dinner.’
LD: Well there’s an option isn’t there?
HA: So, three of us went out to a very nice double decker house in Mount Vernon for lunch. We thought Christmas lunch, you know. Christmas lunch came time and there were plenty of little nibbles and plenty of drinks. This went on all the whole afternoon until about 7 o’clock at night and they brought out the turkey. Us three all said, ‘Well yes, we wouldn’t mind a second helping,’ [laughs]. He took us to his factory the next day. He had a factory that made, amongst other things, handkerchiefs. He gave us some handkerchiefs each.
RG: You don’t happen to remember the family name by any chance, do you? A big ask I know but —
HA: Richie, I think. Richie.
RG: Richie. Ok.
HA: And took us to his club. We offered to buy a drink after he’d bought us one. Everything’s done with chips.
RG: So, you can’t possibly. That’s a polite way to do it isn’t it?
HA: Took us back to our camp at Fort McDowell or Fort Slocum or something. I’ve forgotten the name and we had a few more days in New York. Went to Madison Square Garden and saw an ice hockey match for the first time.
LD: Oh wow.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Went to Jack Dempsey’s Spaghetti Bar.
RG: Ok. Yes. Sorry. Sorry Bert, I was just going to say, I know you said it was a camp. Fort Slocum or wherever it was. Was that like a transit camp for Commonwealth personnel or was it a US army camp or —?
HA: I can’t remember.
RG: Ok.
HA: I can’t remember. It seemed to be a useful sort of a camp.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Could have been [unclear] or that sort of thing.
RG: Yeah.
LD: I have read that Australian servicemen in the States, because there were a lot of people like you who were, you know, kind of in between places who ended up staying there for a couple of weeks or something were very welcome and, you know, never had to buy a drink and so on. Is that — is that your experience?
HA: They were very generous. The Americans.
LD: Yeah.
HA: Yeah. We didn’t buy a drink the time that we were with him of course. I can’t remember other Americans shouting us drinks while we were in New York but in Denver one day, we had a couple of hours in Denver and a fellow came up to us and said, ‘You’ve strange uniforms.’ We had Australia across here. ‘I didn’t know Austria was on our side.’ [laughs]
RG: [laughs] Did you point out that Hitler was an Austrian [laughs] Anyway, yeah.
HA: So, we talked to him a bit about Australia then and [pause]
LD: I have, I’ve also read about the Australians being mistaken for German POWs. Did you, did you have that experience?
HA: I think that could happen. I got mistaken for a policeman a couple of times in London. In the blue uniform.
RG: The blue uniform, yeah. Of course.
LD: Oh of course. The darker blue.
HA: Yeah.
LD: Yes.
HA: And because we’d been to London a few times and used the Underground I knew my way around London fairly well as far as the Underground was concerned. So if somebody said, ‘How do I get to —,’ such and such. I was able to say, ‘That way.’ [laughs] Didn’t let on I wasn’t a policeman.
LD: Fair enough.
HA: Yeah.
LD: So, did you have a safe trip across to Britain after all that. Did you have any problems?
HA: No. No. On New Year’s Eve we boarded the Queen Elizabeth.
LD: Oh. Right.
HA: And it had, it had been partly furnished for passengers before the war but it hadn’t been finished.
RG: No.
HA: There were parts of it were still open hold.
RG: Yeah.
HA: With stacks of —
RG: She came straight from the shipyard. Straight in as a troopship. Yeah.
HA: We got a cabin and there was —
LD: Lucky you.
HA: Eighteen of us, I think, in a cabin, with a little toilet corner in it. Most everywhere there was six feet on a wall with three bunks.
RG: Three bunks. Yeah.
LD: Ah yes.
HA: There were six walls altogether including the corner of it.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah.
HA: We had a great time there. Used to sit on the floor and play cards.
LD: Did you have to — did you have to act as lookouts on the Queen Elizabeth?
HA: No.
LD: Right.
HA: No. We did boat drill which was a bit of a hassle because there was over twenty thousand troops on it. Two or three of the top decks that were open to the weather had three bunks up the wall. Bolted on.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Americans took twelve hours on, twelve hours off on those bunks.
RG: Wow.
HA: So they could fit more people in.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Oh my goodness. Yeah. I’ve read about the hot-bunking. I didn’t realise it was to that extent.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Two meals a day because it took four hours to feed them all.
LD: Yes. Yeah.
HA: Four hours to clean up and then another one.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LD: I also read that the meals were more than a bit basic.
HA: They were, they were alright.
RG: This was a British, this was a British ship. Not an American one. Different. Yeah.
HA: Yeah. We had good meals on the boat. On the trains across America too. It was a bit strange. They’d ask for volunteers to go and count the stuff through the corridor sort of thing. I never had to do that. But they’d arrive with a stainless streel tray, plate, with five compartments on it. You’d put meat there and vegetables there, vegetables there, vegetables there, fruit salad there. And then they’d get a ladle and put what we reckoned was plum jam and put it all over the plate [laughs]
LD: Oh.
HA: It may have been chutney I don’t know.
LD: It sounds awful.
RG: You’re right to separate everything and then join it up with — yeah.
LD: So, did you have the Pullman carriages?
HA: Yes.
LD: Yeah.
HA: Yes. A little compartment with enough people for four. And yet they only put three in it because at night time they had a negro porter came in and made up a double bed at the bottom.
LD: Yeah.
HA: And pulled down —
LD: Yeah.
HA: One at the top which I got in. Being wintertime, each morning I’d find icicles hanging down from the ceiling where the fellas underneath would be warm because they were steam heated.
RG: Yeah. Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Yeah. So did you get to see snow on that trip as well?
HA: Yes. For the first time. We pulled up in marshalling yards at Chicago for about an hour and a half, I suppose. Nowhere near the platform but there was railway lines forever.
RG: Yeah.
HA: We saw it was snow on the ground so, ‘Oh, we’ll get out and have a snow fight.’ So, we got out and had the snow fight for about five minutes and it was minus thirty.
RG: Yeah. Chicago in the winter.
HA: We got back in again pretty quick.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah. No. That’s, that’s my relative’s experience as well. Was seeing the snow for the first time.
HA: Yeah. It was the first time I’d seen snow.
LD: Yeah.
HA: Going across the Atlantic in the Queen Elizabeth after about three days they said, ‘There’s reputed to be a U-boat pack waiting out there somewhere so we’re going to go up near Iceland somewhere and we’re going to go flat out.
RG: Yeah.
HA: So, put your warm clothes on.’ We’re not going to — we’re going to turn the heating off and go as fast as we can.’
RG: Yeah.
HA: We met some of the crew in Glasgow. Greenock. They took us for a tour of the ship later and said that they got over forty knots.
RG: Wow.
HA: That night going up.
RG: She was fast. I didn’t realise she was that fast though.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Wow.
LD: So, did you, did you land in Greenock?
HA: Yeah.
LD: Yeah. Ok. Yeah.
RG: Yes, I suppose if you’ve got the threat of U-boats you’ll find the, you’ll find the extra knots.
HA: Yeah, they put all the steam they could get in to it.
LD: So, once you arrived in the UK where did you go to then?
HA: By train to Brighton.
LD: Brighton. Ok. And were you there for long?
HA: I think about three weeks.
LD: Right. Yeah.
HA: We did a little bit of training. I think the main thing we did was learn the stars of the northern hemisphere.
RG: Oh course. Yeah.
LD: Of course. Absolutely. Yeah.
RG: They didn’t teach you that while you were here?
HA: No. No.
RG: I mean even theoretically. That’s funny. I suppose a lot of you would have ended up in the Pacific theatre so, yeah.
HA: There’s enough to learn one lot at a time.
RG: Yeah. True enough. Yeah.
LD: Yeah. No. I remember the first time I went to Europe, you know, looking up at the sky and going —
RG: It’s all different.
LD: All the bases of my life were gone. It’s quite strange and it would have been even more so for you because that’s —
RG: Your trade.
LD: Yeah . That would have been really interesting for you.
HA: At Brighton there was two big hotels. The Metropole and The Grand that were taken over by the RAAF as a holding centre. And again, when we left to come home. Same place.
LD: Oh right.
RG: They’re both on the seafront aren’t they?
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah. I can remember the Metropole.
HA: When I went back to Europe in ‘94 and took a trip down to Brighton and had a look at them and they’ve dolled them up. They’re both nice looking hotels.
RG: Yeah. They’re both there though. Yeah.
HA: They were very basic then.
RG: Yeah.
LD: And was Brighton all — ‘cause I know Bournemouth had all the razor wire on the beaches and things like that. Was the same sort of protections there in Brighton?
HA: Yes. One of the, I think both of the piers had a hole cut in the middle of them so that they couldn’t —
RG: Couldn’t land on the end.
HA: Get on to one end and come ashore sort of thing.
LD: Were there any air raids or anything while you were there?
HA: Yes. There were air raids while we were there.
LD: Yeah.
HA: For a start we used to go down to the basement and they didn’t seem to do much harm so after that we didn’t bother. We just stayed in our bedroom.
RG: That would have been also around the time of the V1s and V2s.
HA: Yes.
RG: Did you have any experience of those? Or —
HA: Once or twice when I was in London on leave we heard one or two come over and we actually heard one stop one night and thought oh, this is going to be a bang.
RG: Oh dear.
HA: And sure, enough there was a bang not far away.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve heard people, Londoner’s I’ve met, who said that they were far more frightened of the V1s than the V2s because of that. You’d hear. In the buildings you couldn’t see them. You could hear them and when they stopped it was, ‘Where is it going to fall?’
HA: Yeah.
RG: Whereas the V2 was the crash and if you heard the crash — well you were still alive. So that was —
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I don’t think there was any V2s ever landed when I was in London. They were frightening.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Yeah.
HA: And I don’t think there was any of the London guns landed in London when I was there either. You’ve heard about the London guns. The V3.
RG: That’s the V3. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I have heard about it. I didn’t know they actually fired on —
HA: Yeah. They fired a few.
RG: Oh ok.
HA: But nowhere near what they wanted to.
RG: No.
HA: They were going to finish Britain off with the V2s and V3s.
RG: Well by that point they were disappearing back away from the French coast weren’t they?
HA: Yeah. That’s right.
RG: Yeah. You’re talking January ‘45.
HA: Yeah. So the London gun got bypassed.
RG: Shuffled back. Yeah. Became a Calais gun or something [laughs] as far as you could reach.
LD: So which OTU did you end up being sent to?
HA: Lichfield.
LD: Yeah.
HA: Before that we went to an AFU At Llandwrog. In North Wales.
RG: Wales.
LD: What was an AFU?
HA: They called it an Advanced Flying Unit.
LD: Oh right. Yeah.
HA: Avro Ansons again. That was mainly to familiarise navigators and bomb aimers I think with map reading in Britain.
LD: Oh right.
HA: Which was altogether different to the Riverina
LD: Just a little [laughs]
RG: [unclear]
LD: Not to mention the stars.
RG: Yeah. And at Lichfield — that was an OTU.
HA: Lichfield it was a fairly popular OTU where we crewed up and —
LD: Yeah.
HA: Flew Wellingtons.
LD: Right.
RG: For training.
HA: For training.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah.
LD: So how did they crew you guys up? It seems to have been a little different in different places.
HA: They gave us two days to hang around in the hangar and hang around in the mess drinking beer and find ourselves a crew.
LD: Right.
RG: Right. But that was a five man crew wasn’t it?
HA: Six.
RG: Six. In a Wellington.
HA: Six I think.
RG: Six. Yeah. Ok.
HA: Yeah. Even though Wellingtons only had five in the crew.
RG: Yeah.
HA: You crewed up with six and the rear gunner and the mid-upper gunner took turns in the rear turret to practice.
RG: Oh ok.
LD: Oh right. Ok. Yeah.
RG: But you’re still one down from a Lancaster though ‘cause that was seven.
HA: Yeah. No engineer.
RG: No engineer. Right.
HA: So, Syd Payne and I who’d done our training in Australia together as observers and he had been a — started off as a pilot. Did Tiger Moths at Narromine and got scrubbed on Wirraways at Uranquinty I think. So, he looked like a valuable bloke to have in a crew. Somebody who could fly.
RG: Fly. Yes. Of course.
HA: And we were both navigator — bomb aimer, sort of thing and he trained.
RG: Tossed a coin to see who did what.
HA: He trained as a bomb aimer just across Anglesey from where Llandwrog was. So, we’re looking around for a pilot.
RG: Sorry. Did you two decide between yourselves who was going to be the bomb aimer and who was going to be the navigator?
HA: Before we’d even got there because he trained as a bomb aimer AFU.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I trained as a navigator AFU.
RG: Yes. Oh of course. That was before Lichfield yes. Of course. Yeah.
HA: Before Lichfield.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: So we got together and we found a pilot with a wireless op attached. And they were both Queenslanders. Both same age as us. All twenty years old. And after looking at a few others, sort of thing, I think the pilot decided that, yes, we would do him sort of thing and so we were thinking about a rear gunner. And a pair of gunners. Looking around and then a pair of gunners came and found us [emphasis] They turned out to be fellas who came first and second in their gunnery course.
RG: Nice.
HA: So, they, they had the pick of the mob sort of thing. So they picked us luckily. We got on well with them so —
RG: Both Australians. So —
HA: Yes. All Australians.
RG: Yeah.
HA: The rear gunner was from Sydney. In fact, we had a connection. I don’t know whether he’d married already a girl that I knew in Mudgee.
RG: Oh. Ok.
HA: Or married her after.
RG: After the war.
HA: One or the other. And the other fella was a farm worker from Western Australia who was elderly. He was twenty five.
RG: Oh gosh.
LD: Oh. Poor old man. You’d have to help him on with a stick.
HA: And they were both teetotallers.
RG: Oh. Ok. Ok. Maybe that’s why they came first and second in their gunnery course.
HA: And they were good shots. The bloke from Western Australia had done a bit of clay pigeon shooting, well live pigeon shooting against kangaroos and stuff.
RG: Yeah.
HA: You know. So, he knew about leading.
RG: Yeah. And they used clay pigeons to the train the gunners. Yeah.
HA: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. So, they were good shots by the time we got together and of course we did a lot more training. One of the things we did at Lichfield in our training was do a bullseye.
RG: Yes.
HA: Several reckoned it counted as an operation. Others reckoned it counted as half an operation. Yeah. They got all the training planes together. Not only from Lichfield but a heap of them and flew up as if you were going to Wilhelmshaven or something like that. Up in the Baltic. When you got nearly there you turned around and came back while the rest of Bomber Command went to Munich or somewhere.
RG: Oh, you were the decoy force.
HA: Diversion decoy. Yeah.
RG: Diversion. Of course. Yeah.
LD: This is the first time I’ve actually been able to confirm what a command bullseye was.
RG: Yeah. Lucie’s relative, Ken mentions in his logbook about a command bullseye but they did these over London.
LD: But they did these over London. Yes.
RG: But and he just says command bullseye and we’ve asked the other veterans and none of them have known what it was. They didn’t do it. So —
LD: I’ve only found one reference to it in the research.
RG: Yeah.
LD: That’s really good. I’m really pleased [laughs]
HA: We did another one when we were on Stirlings. We did another bullseye.
RG: Oh that was still on Wellingtons wasn’t it?
HA: This was still on Wellingtons. Yeah.
RG: Yeah. And then you went over to Stirlings did you?
HA: Yes. Our next move after Lichfield was Swinderby.
RG: Oh yes.
HA: Near Lincoln. And I was on Stirlings.
RG: Yeah. Where you found an engineer at that point.
HA: Yeah. That’s where we got our engineer.
RG: Was he appointed or did you find him?
HA: He was just appointed to us and he was a man of forty four.
RG: Wow.
LD: Really.
HA: He’d been a policeman for years.
RG: Yeah.
HA: In Birmingham and Coventry.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And those sorts of places.
RG: So he was RAF.
HA: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: I didn’t realise.
HA: He was born in Scotland. His parents lived in Ireland. When we went on leave he had to change in to civvies to go over to Ireland.
RG: To go to Ireland [laughs]
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yes.
LD: So, did you do anything other than kind of like a spoof raid on the bullseye. Did you drop leaflets?
HA: No.
LD: Or anything like that?
HA: No. We just stayed over the sea all the time.
LD: Right. Ok.
RG: Ok.
HA: And the other one we did in the Stirlings I think we only went about as far as the Dutch coast. It was quite a short trip compared with the one that went nearly to Wilhelmshaven.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yeah.
RG: So how long were you on Stirlings for? And again, this is just training isn’t it? On the Stirlings.
HA: Training. Yeah. We trained there for about a month I think.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: It was mainly circuits and bumps and that sort of thing for the pilot more than —
RG: Get used to the four engines.
HA: Probably did about a couple of cross country’s and that sort of thing.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Some bombing. Fighter affiliation for the gunners.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: So, the bullseyes. Were they both at night?
HA: Yes.
LD: Yeah. So that would have been training for you as a navigator as well wouldn’t it?
HA: Oh yeah.
LD: Sort of doing the real thing. Yeah.
HA: Oh yeah. Had to find our way there and back. But when we got to Lichfield I think, on OTU, on the Wellingtons we first had Gee.
LD: Yes.
HA: Which was a tremendous help for navigators. You could get accurate fixes whenever you wanted them.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Up as far as the enemy frontier sort of thing. They jammed it after that. If we could get an hour or two when we were on an operations of good fixes before Gee gave up. And they also had APIs which you don’t seem to be in the literature much. Air Position Indicators.
RG: No.
HA: They were the best thing going for —
RG: How did that work?
HA: When we were at Cootamundra or AFU we were expected to keep a manual air plot. Every change of direction or speed or height made a difference to the air plot each time.
LD: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Then if you found a fix you could find a wind.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And that depended on the pilot sticking to the course that he was told to be on.
RG: Yeah.
HA: The speed he was told to be on and the height he was supposed —
RG: So pilot’s actually —
LD: Pilots don’t always do that.
HA: Navigation was very much a — perhaps. But with API they had a distance reading compass down the back that was half gyro and half magnetic.
RG: Yeah. Gyro magnetic compass. I know those. Yeah.
HA: And that came via the nav table through a control called a Variation Setting Control so you could set the variation on that.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And change it as you went across Europe.
RG: Yeah.
HA: From 11 around Lincoln to about 3 at Berlin or something like that.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: And deviations.
RG: Yeah.
HA: They’d swing the compass every now and again on the ground. Give you a deviation card.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Generally only one or two degrees.
RG: Yeah.
HA: So the true directions would come out on the repeater compasses for the navigator and the pilot.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And the bomb aimer.
LD: Right.
HA: And the API had true directions going to it and then from the air speed indicator which didn’t give true airspeed by any means when you, as you went higher. The indicated air speed might be a hundred and sixty mile an hour and the true air speed be two hundred miles an hour.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Thinner air. That’s going to —
HA: Thinner air. So that was accounted for as well.
RG: Wow. That’s —
HA: So the API had got true directions and true speed.
RG: Yeah. And altitude to make that variation. Yeah.
HA: Just had two knobs on it.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Two little windows.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And the normal thing we did for a start was to set the latitude and longitude of the airfield and as you flew along any time you wanted to find out where your air position was it was there. You just wrote it down. Latitude and longitude. Popped it down on your chart.
RG: And that was quite accurate.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Wow. Ok. So that were, that were in Lancs and Stirlings obviously. And Wellingtons.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Ok. So was this must have been, was this something that sort of came along later in the war? Do you know?
HA: I think it probably came in in late ’43.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I would imagine.
RG: Ok. Yeah. You’re right. I haven’t come across that either, but, yeah.
LD: Did you get — because from what I’ve read there was a lot of technology happening there around all sorts of things but, you know, including navigation.
HA: Yeah.
LD: Did you find there was a lot of changes in the equipment that you used and were you actually trained in those changes?
HA: Yes.
LD: Or did you just kind of wake up one morning and get on the aircraft and find it was new.
HA: We had — Lancasters were fitted with H2S when we got to Waddington.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And we used them in training on [pause] between — between the Stirlings and going in to the squadron we did a Lanc Finishing School. I think that’s where we first saw H2S on the planes.
RG: Yeah.
HA: All the planes had H2S at Waddington. And we used them for training exercises but we were forbidden to use them on operations because the Germans could home in on them with their fighters.
RG: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
HA: And so the only time we ever used H2S over Germany was on a daylight trip to Wilhelmshaven when they expected to have a lot of cloud over the target and so for the first time we ever got directions like this — ‘If you can’t see the target you can use H2S or you can drop your bombs when you see another one drop their bombs.’ [laughs]
RG: [laughs] Gosh.
LD: That’s precision bombing.
RG: Yeah.
LD: So you’re all sitting there going can any of us see the target? Who’s going to drop a bomb first?
HA: In our training with H2S the bomb aimer used to come and sit alongside the navigator. Both fiddled with H2S and so he came up and we were deliberating about where we were going to aim at sort of thing and we finally said, ‘Oh well, that’ll do.’ When we pressed the bombing tit two other Lancs dropped theirs.
RG: [laughs] Not sort of what you’d expect is it?
HA: We don’t know what harm we did.
LD: Might have killed a couple of sheep.
HA: Anyway, that was H2S. Gee didn’t change except as, as the allies crept up through France and so forth.
RG: Went further out.
HA: They opened up two more Gee chains besides the ones that were based in England.
RG: Yeah.
HA: One was called the Reims. One was called the Ruhr. And the other thing was after about two months, I think, Loran was fitted to the Lancs.
LD: Sorry. What was that?
RG: Loran.
HA: L O R A N long range air navigation.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Which related to Gee in that it measured time differences between the emitter and the plane. And that chart with curved lines in different colours. Same as Gee. But apparently it was only effective at night time because instead of getting direct radio signals they were bounced off the ionosphere at night time.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: It had an extremely long range. Covered all of Europe. And when they came out to the Pacific it covered all the Pacific area.
RG: Really important in the Pacific. Yeah.
HA: So we trained with Loran while we were on the squadron and actually used it about halfway through our tour. Used Loran when Gee ran out.
RG: But was it as accurate as Gee?
HA: Not as accurate.
RG: No.
HA: And a bit more cumbersome to use because you tuned into one station and got one partition line at a time and then you had to tune into a second one.
RG: Get the second position line.
HA: Get the different and then transfer further along.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Parallel ruler and muck around. So it was a bit slower. I think it was accurate enough. Good enough to find the target anyway.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Were you mostly on, at 467, on daylight operations at that point or still mostly night time? Night operations?
HA: We got back to mostly back to night time by that time. This was September when we started and D-day was back in June.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Sorry that was September. What year?
HA: ‘44.
LD: Thank you. Just to –
HA: We finished in January ’45.
LD: Right. Yeah.
HA: So we did a few daylight trips. The first and third ones were fairly big raids on le Havre and Boulogne in daylight. Big armies.
RG: Army support. Yeah.
HA: In both those places and they had side-tracked or bypassed them with the Canadians and British armies.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And finally, they decided it was about time they cleaned them out, sort of thing. So dropped a lot of bombs on various parts.
RG: Yeah.
HA: It wasn’t area bombing like there was on towns in Britain, in Germany. It was specific things.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Like oil dumps, E-boat pens. Stuff like this.
RG: Transport links and stuff like that. Yeah. Tactical. More tactical.
HA: Tactical stuff.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: They didn’t want to kill too many Frenchmen.
RG: No. No. Exactly.
LD: No. One doesn’t.
HA: So, we did that in daylight.
LD: That’s right.
RG: So that was on your first and third trip.
HA: First and third trips. Yeah.
LD: How many ops did you complete?
HA: Twenty nine.
LD: That’s a good number.
HA: Pardon?
LD: That’s a very good number.
HA: Yeah. Well I think the bullseyes might have counted to make it thirty.
RG: I was going to say, Bert, it varied over time we noticed that the number of ops you had to do to do a, you know, to do a tour.
HA: A tour varied.
RG: Yeah. In your period it was how many?
HA: Thirty to finish.
RG: It was thirty still. Yeah. Ok.
HA: When we started it was thirty six because it had been made thirty six around D-day.
RG: Ok.
HA: With so many short trips.
RG: Of course. Yeah. Yes.
HA: And then a month or two after D-day they broke it back to thirty three.
RG: ‘Cause you were going back on the raids on Germany then.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And then after we’d done about fifteen or twenty trips or something like that they said you only have to do thirty from now on.
RG: That was a bit of a relief.
HA: Yeah. But there was some longer trips coming up.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: We did one long trip to Trondheim in Norway.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Wow.
HA: Almost eleven hours.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And they put a smokescreen over the target and so the master bomber said, ‘Well, you can take your bombs home.’ So we did almost eleven hours with a full bomb load.
RG: Wow.
LD: Did that count as an op for you?
HA: That counted as an op. Yeah.
LD: Because you didn’t drop any bombs.
HA: You’d only to go to the target and be on the op. Yeah. We did a couple of —
RG: You said you brought the bombs home.
LD: Yeah.
RG: You didn’t land with them did you?
LD: Yes. That’s what I was thinking.
HA: Yeah.
RG: You did.
LD: Wow.
RG: I thought the standard practice was to ditch them in the sea if you were —
HA: Only if you had too much weight.
RG: So —
HA: I think earlier in the war they might have ditched them but we brought our bombs back three times I think.
RG: Ok.
LD: Oh my goodness.
RG: So when you say too much weight you had too much fuel still in and there was like a maximum weight that a Lanc could land with.
HA: Yeah. Yeah.
RG: Oh. I see.
LD: Well, you wouldn’t have had much fuel left after a trip to Norway. Would you?
RG: No. That’s right. It would have been light enough I suppose.
HA: I wrote a bit about this later one time. We were the only one to get back to Waddington with our bombs on. The others either landed in Scotland or ditched their bombs in the Atlantic.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And then got back to Waddington. But we didn’t bother. We came all the way back and had eighty gallons left.
RG: Eighty gallons. Don’t go around the circuit once or twice [laughs]
HA: It’s not really enough to go around again.
RG: No.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Wow. Ok.
LD: It doesn’t kind of sound very safe landing with the bombs but —
RG: No. No.
LD: But obviously you managed it.
HA: Yes. I believe —
LD: And the big one would have only been a cookie in that case wouldn’t it? You wouldn’t have had —
HA: Yeah. I don’t think we had a cookie even then. I think we only had about eight or ten one thousand pounders. I could find out in the logbook.
RG: Yeah for that range you would have only had a small one. You’d need more fuel and less bombs for that range.
HA: They actually, like, we were two squadrons taking off from Waddington. So there would have been about forty planes. As you turned at the end of the runway, on the perimeter track to get on to the runway they had a petrol tanker there to top up the tanks.
RG: [laughs] Fair dinkum.
LD: Oh my goodness.
HA: They knew it was going to be touch and go you see.
RG: Wow.
LD: Wow.
RG: That must have been close to one of the longest return — one of the longest return raids of the war surely.
HA: For ordinary squadrons.
RG: Yeah.
HA: But the fellas who did the Tirpitz raids —
RG: Yeah.
HA: They did thirteen, fourteen hour trips.
RG: Yeah. They had modified aircraft though too didn’t they? Yeah.
HA: They threw out the turrets.
RG: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
LD: Because that’s what I was going to ask with these raids was the crew or the aircraft modified in any way for those, for that long trip.
HA: No. No.
RG: The standard. Still must have come close. I mean there were some squadrons, some raids I believe where they flew across, dropped their bombs in east bloc Poland and then went on and landed at Russian airfields, refuelled and came back out.
HA: Yeah. They did the same with some of the Italians targets early in the war I think.
RG: Yeah. Flew down to North Africa. Yeah. Yeah.
LD: So did you guys know, well no, you didn’t know in advance did you? About where you were going? But how did you feel when you realised you were going to Norway?
HA: We feel pretty happy about it because we thought that’s going to be a safe target.
RG: Yeah.
HA: There’s not going to be anybody shooting at you all the way.
LD: Fair enough.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Actually it was a nasty trip for navigation. There was what they called an occlusion up in the North Sea where a cold front and a warm front got together.
RG: Yeah.
HA: It was raining. And the wind was variable and we were supposed to find our way up there after Gee ran out. For about another two or three hours flying after that. The bomb aimer gave what we thought was a pinpoint crossing the coast of Norway that turned out to be wrong. And he gave another one later on and he thinks it was right. But anyway we finally found the target. Then we had to fly for two or three hours without any aids coming back because it was ten tenths cloud. Still raining.
RG: And you were over the sea the whole way.
HA: When I finally got the first Gee fix we were fifty miles north west of where we should have been.
RG: That’s not bad.
HA: The wind had changed that much.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: In four or five hours.
RG: Yeah. But you’re over the sea almost the whole way too.
HA: Over the sea most of the time.
RG: So if you ditched —
LD: You’ve got no points of reference have you?
RG: No. And if you ditched, you had to ditch you were in deep trouble.
HA: Yeah. Anyhow. We were heading, had a slight headwind at that stage which had been pushing us up that way. We increased the speed a bit because of the headwind and then after about an hour of finding Gee fixes I found the wind had changed to almost the opposite. Anyway, we said, ‘Skipper you can slow the plane down a bit now. We’ve got a bit of a tailwind.’ And so he and I and the engineer did some calculations. We’d already decided we’d land at Lossiemouth or Leuchars or somewhere. In Scotland. But after we did the calculations the skipper said, ‘I think we can give it a go to get back to base because of the tailwind.’ Maybe the other fellas didn’t do that workings. But anyhow we cut it fine.
RG: Yeah. So you started ops with 467 in September.
HA: Yeah.
RG: First and third raid. On your second raid. Where was that to?
HA: Stuttgart. Night raid. In between the skipper did a second dickie to Pforzheim. I forgotten where he went. Somewhere like Stuttgart I think.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And then the next night he went.
RG: Went out on a —
HA: Stuttgart on his own with us.
RG: What was your, how did you, what was your experience of the first raid? You know. The first German raid really. First. Stuttgart. How did you —?
HA: No problem much. The navigator stayed in his blackout curtained room with the light on and I seldom went out and looked at the target.
RG: Ok.
HA: So I left it to the rest of them to do all the looking out and so forth. Our gunners, bomb aimer and engineer all were very good at keeping a lookout.
RG: Good lookout. Yeah. I suppose the resistance from fighters and so forth was slowing down a bit by then wasn’t it? It was still there but —
HA: You’ve heard about Schrage musik.
RG: Schrage musik. Yes. Yes.
HA: That was something that took a great toll of bombers.
RG: Bombers. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Right up to the end of the war I think. When we finished our tour. In the next two months Waddington lost both their COs and one of their flight commanders. All experienced fellas on second tours.
RG: Ok.
HA: Sort of thing and, we think, all to night fighters with their upward firing guns.
RG: The guns. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Some of the some of the German aces were reputed to have shot down over a hundred, sort of thing.
RG: There were a few who got — yeah. Yeah.
HA: It was pretty dangerous.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
LD: I have seen — I think it was a Lanc with, there were modifications, not official ones but just ones that were done in particular squadrons with like, an observation point underneath. I remember seeing the ones with like the little round dome underneath.
RG: Yeah. Like an astrodome.
LD: Yes.
RG: But on the bottom of the fuselage.
LD: Yes, but underneath. So, I have read about you know some aircraft that had these unofficial modifications to watch out for Schrage musik. Did you have anything like that in your — ?
HA: No. We weren’t even told about it.
LD: Ah. That’s what I was wondering as well.
HA: You know, I’m sure the authorities knew about it. Probably months, maybe more, before we flew. They didn’t tell us about it. I think it was probably to keep the morale up.
RG: Morale. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: What they did tell us to do was to do banking searches and —
LD: Banking searches?
HA: Banking searches.
LD: Yes.
HA: Like earlier in the war, before Window, the searchlights and ack-ack were mostly radar controlled and so if you flew straight they would drop onto you and so the technique was to —
RG: Swerve.
HA: Just weave. Go a few — half a minute this way.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Half a minute that way. Sort of thing.
RG: So, predictors couldn’t predict in curves.
HA: Window came in and their radar wasn’t able to lock onto planes. The technique was to put up a barrage of flak and in daytime it looked pretty horrible with all these black puffs in the air. They’d hang in the air for a long time so it looked —
RG: Looked worse than it probably was. Yeah.
HA: So anyway, the technique was to straight, go straight. Don’t weave. Get through it as quick as you can. And all the time we were over enemy territory our pilot was quite religious about the banking searches. They could make the plane do that. Without it changing direction.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Yes.
HA: He’d say, ‘Down port.’ The gunners would have a good look underneath and say, ‘All clear port.’ Roll it over.
LD: Right. Yeah.
HA: ‘All clear starboard.’
RG: Ah ok.
HA: We would do that for hours.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: And we never got shot at by a fighter.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: A couple or three times a gunner saw a fighter and we started corkscrewing and we weren’t chased on any of those occasions.
RG: Yeah.
HA: The general opinion was that if a German fighter saw you doing a corkscrew they’d give up and look for somebody else.
RG: Someone easier. So, you never actually got attacked by a fighter.
HA: Never. No.
LD: Were you ever hit by flak?
HA: Oh yeah. Lots and lots of times. Sometimes a lot of holes. A couple of daylight lowish level ones we got holes from machine guns from the ground.
RG: Wow. Ok.
HA: Walcheren Island. We bombed Walcheren Island three times. Short daylight raids.
RG: Sorry? Whereabout?
HA: Walcheren Island.
RG: Oh sorry. Yeah.
HA: Scheldt Estuary. The first time this was what I was going to tell you about. 617 Squadron landing with their bombs on. I think they did there. We went. 5 Group sent about a hundred planes to Walcheren Island and the aim was to break the sea wall and flood the island and we did a run at about, I think about six thousand feet or something like that and drop seven bombs in a close stick and come around again and did another seven. In the same place. Hopefully.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And a hundred planes did that and they opened it up, the front of the island. Got a picture in The Sun and the next day, sort of thing, “The RAF floods an island.” Apparently 617 Squadron was standing by with tallboy bombs.
RG: Yeah.
HA: In case.
RG: Just in case you didn’t manage it.
HA: And they brought them home.
RG: Wow.
LD: They brought home Tallboys.
HA: Twelve thousand pounds.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Wow.
RG: I’d be terrified landing with a bloody Tallboy underneath.
HA: Yeah. Well, I don’t know if they brought them home and landed with them or whether they junked them somewhere else, you know but they didn’t need to use them on Walcheren Island.
RG: Actually sorry, one of the first chaps we interviewed — Arthur. He was, he did, he finished his tour in ‘45 and then was posted to an experimental unit experimenting with a blind landing aid which he told us a bit about and he said it was very very effective. He was there when the war ended.
HA: Yeah.
RG: But he, before he left his squadron he went down to the intelligence officer’s hut and nicked some of the photographs that he had taken himself on one of those raids and he gave us the photos and you could see the bombs striking the seawall. That was in Holland though. There was another one trying to break a dyke in Holland but at low level and — yeah. Arthur’s photos. Yeah. I forget what squadron he was with now but —
HA: The next two raids we did on Walcheren Island, they were both daylight, were on the big guns that were stopping the Canadians from going along the bank.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And stopping the navy probably from coming in as well although the estuary was mined and the navy had one go at it before and said, ‘No. It’s too dangerous.’
RG: Yeah.
HA: So, we were trying to bomb these big guns and they were pretty impervious to bombs I think but it ended up being a fairly hairy sort of a thing because we would go over and they’d say, ‘Oh yes, well the weather’s not too good. You might have to fly at six thousand,’ and you’d get there and have to fly at four thousand or something like that. And so, there was a lot of anti-aircraft fire.
RG: A lot of flak. Yeah.
HA: Small arms stuff even.
RG: Yeah. Four thousand feet. You’re not very high are you?
LD: I’ve read about bomb aimers keeping some of the Window and putting the Window on the bottom of their aircraft and lying on the Window to stop —
RG: A bit of armour.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Using the Window.
LD: To protect them from the flak.
HA: I’ve never heard of that.
LD: I I guess these were kind of individual things that people —
RG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
LD: Systems that people developed themselves.
RG: Did you have a mascot or a, you know, a token or anything.
HA: On the side of the plane.
RG: No. A personal one. A personal one.
HA: That one of us carried? No. None of us seem to have been too superstitious.
RG: Ok.
HA: A lot of them were but —
RG: Do you know of all the chaps we’ve spoken to most of them have said that? That they didn’t do it.
HA: No.
RG: Yeah.
LD: And yet you read such a lot about it don’t you?
RG: Yeah.
HA: About the only superstitious thing we did was we’d all pee on the tail wheel before we took off.
RG: [laughs] Yeah. I believe that was a common one.
LD: Was that very easy? In those flying suits.
HA: It was not. No. I can’t, I can’t ever remember using the toilet down the back of the plane during any of our trips.
RG: The Elsan.
HA: The pilot did it once.
LD: From the sound of things, you wouldn’t have wanted to use it if you could avoid it.
HA: Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you were above ten thousand feet you’d have your oxygen on for a start. So, you’d have to disconnect that. Get a hold of a portable oxygen bottle, go down, climb over the main spar which was about this high.
RG: Yeah.
HA: The pilot went down once on a daylight trip. I forget where it was to. So, I got to fly the plane for half an hour.
RG: Oh right.
HA: Straight and level.
RG: Yeah.
LD: And what kind of, we’ve heard about the — that the meal you’d had before an op. Was that still happening for you?
HA: Yes. Yes. But one of the early things you find out about being on an op on a night somebody would have said 2154 and that would be the number of gallons that a plane would hold and you’d say, ‘Oh well, it’s a long trip.’ And then the next thing they’d announce that the flying meal would be on at 3 o’clock. Something like that. And then a briefing at about 5 o’clock. That sort of thing. It would all lead up to actually take off time.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. It was quite a long period.
LD: So how far ahead would they kind of lock down the station? You know, set the security measures in place.
HA: I’m not too sure. I think it would probably be twelve, fifteen hours. Something like that.
LD: Right.
HA: Maybe a bit longer.
LD: Yeah. Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
LD: And did you guys get the wakey wakey pills too?
HA: Yeah. They gave them to us and I never used them once I don’t think. I don’t know if anybody else in the crew ever used them. Maybe the gunners did because they’d be tested on some of the long trips for staying awake.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: In the dark.
RG: Yeah.
LD: How did they do that? Test them,
HA: They’d be stressed.
RG: And tested as in stressed.
LD: Oh right. Ok. Not examined.
HA: I used the wrong word.
LD: No. No. That’s fine. I just took it the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah. Examined. Yeah. That’s what I meant.
RG: So, your crew. You had the same crew throughout all twenty nine?
HA: Throughout. Yeah. No replacements. No.
RG: Yeah. Have you got their names and so forth?
HA: Yeah.
RG: I mean you probably almost certainly remember them.
LD: Yeah. But it’s got all this. Maybe it’s written in there.
HA: Our pilot was Peter Gray-Buchannan. With a hyphen. His elder brother had done two tours as a rear gunner earlier.
RG: Wow.
HA: Over there.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Gosh. He was a lucky man wasn’t he?
HA: Have you heard of Doubleday and Brill?
RG: No.
HA: From Ganmain. They’re both fairly famous men. They both enlisted from Ganmain early in the war. Both went over there and did at least two tours. Maybe three. Both were wing commanders with the DSO and a couple of DFCs. That sort of thing. Billy Brill was CO of our squadron when we arrived. And I’ll tell you about the DFC now.
RG: Yes. I was just about to come to that eventually.
LD: Yes, it’s on my list.
HA: When we got to the squadron Bill called all eight of the new crews that had arrived from training into his office and amongst other things said, because we were all, nearly all flight sergeants, ‘All you flight sergeants who were thinking of applying for a commission don’t bother until you’ve done twenty trips. And then if you keep your nose clean you get recommended.’ He didn’t say, ‘Most of you won’t make twenty.’ [laughs] But anyway, that was his — so when I had done twenty trips I applied for a commission and Bill — Bill had been moved on and we had a new younger CO called Douglas. And he took it upon himself to sort of decide who was officer material and who wasn’t, sort of thing. One of the questions he asked me was, ‘Are you going to be any more use to the air force with a commission?’ And I said, ‘No. I can’t say that I will.’ I didn’t give him the right answers anyway and he didn’t recommend me.
RG: Yeah.
HA: So —
RG: That’s a fair answer though Bert. I’ve got to say. I have to say.
HA: When we got towards the end of our tour. I think probably only with one trip to go. It may have been two. The group captain called me in one day and said, ‘I’ve a bit of a problem. I’ve got one CO who recommends you fellas when you’ve done twenty trips and you’ve looked after yourself. And the other fella says yes or no to some of them.’ And he said, ‘The RAAF hierarchy requires that even if the CO says no it has to come to me. It’s not final.’
RG: Yeah.
HA: ‘So that’s my problem. Are you a good navigator?’ ‘Oh, I think so. I’ve lasted this long.’
LD: You’d done at least twenty trips.
RG: Yeah.
LD: You must be good.
HA: That was the end of the interview. So apparently on that day he approved me for a commission and so sometime later I got, in the mail, a letter saying that I’d got a DFC and I was a pilot officer.
LD: Oh.
RG: So, you didn’t make pilot officer or —
HA: Yeah.
RG: Oh. Ok
HA: Yeah. So I was a pilot officer dated from the day that I saw the group captain.
RG: Because as an airman you would have got the DFM wouldn’t you?
HA: Yeah.
RG: So, maybe they were going to give you the DFM and they went, ‘Oh God, he’s a pilot officer, we have to — [laughs] Did you get the DFM DFC for any particular —
HA: No.
RG: Just —
HA: I could show you the citation but it’s just a standard one that they gave to most people. The pilot got one with the same wording apparently.
RG: Right.
[pause]
HA: That’s fairly standard I think. There’d be hundreds of those. Came in a nice little case.
LD: Oh, it’s not there anymore though.
HA: It’s there.
RG: It’s on there.
LD: Oh, it’s a beautiful box isn’t it? It’s lovely.
HA: Yeah.
RG: You’ve got the Bomber Command clasp.
HA: Yes. I only got that one last year.
RG: It’s recent isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
HA: It was a bit of a hassle because I filled in all the forms and so forth. Sent it to England. And they sent it back, they sent back word, ‘No. You don’t apply there. You apply at Canberra.’ So, I had to go through it all again. Copies of stuff from the logbook and all that.
LD: So how, how was it presented to you?
HA: It was just sent in the mail. It wasn’t. There was no, no ceremony at all.
LD: Right.
RG: There’s an interesting thing on the back of it I’ve just noticed. It’s got on it that it was obviously first issued in 1918 and it’s got George Rex on it and then 1945 is just stamped in at the bottom.
HA: Yeah.
RG: That’s you know, that’s interesting that they keep — yeah.
HA: Yeah.
RG: I suppose originally when they did they first design they didn’t think they’d need it again.
HA: Yeah.
[pause]
HA: A local federal MP gave out those sort of things at one stage.
RG: Oh, the sixtieth. Yeah.
HA: Yeah. Just a medal .
RG: Yeah. World War Two. Yeah.
HA: And I was sitting with some other fellas that day and they had a Bomber Command medal on their chest. And I said, I asked them, I said, ‘Where did you get that?’ And they said, ‘We bought it.’ You can’t get a Bomber Command medal. They haggled with the government over there for years about getting one and they were never approved. The best they could do was a clasp. But apparently —
RG: Did Fighter Command get one? They got one, didn’t they? Fighter Command.
HA: I don’t know. Battle of Britain got one I think.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Yeah. The Bomber Command one. That sort of — there were problems with that with the political ramifications of Bomber Command. After the war.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: That became quite unpleasant.
HA: Yeah.
LD: To say the least.
HA: Yeah.
LD: I just checked out the squadron before we came.
HA: Yeah.
LD: And — yeah. So, you talked about the support of ground operations during the D-day landings at that time and so on. It said that 467 participated in the raids on Peenemunde.
HA: Yeah.
LD: Were you there then?
HA: No.
LD: Ok.
HA: It was a research station for the V2s and V1s.
RG: And V1s. Yeah.
LD: Yes. It was a fascinating raid. I’ve read a book about it. it’s pretty amazing. And were you involved in Operation Manna and bringing the POWs back from Europe?
HA: No.
LD: And dropping supplies and so on.
RG: No. You’d finished by then, hadn’t you? You finished in January.
HA: I’ll tell you why I wasn’t. As soon as I finished my tour our pilot got transferred to Transport Command and I got transferred to Training Command. And I was an instructor at a Con Unit.
RG: Whereabouts?
HA: At Wigsley. Near Waddington.
RG: Yeah. Ok.
HA: And we were getting crews ready to go to squadrons that were going to be in Tiger Force.
RG: Tiger Force. Yeah.
LD: Right. That’s what else I was going to ask about because it said 467 was involved in that.
RG: Yeah.
HA: So, I was an instructor right up until they dropped the atom bomb.
LD: Right. Right. Fair enough.
HA: Yeah.
RG: And were you still at Wigsley right to the end?
HA: Still at Wigsley.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And I stayed on at Wigsley for another couple of months after that and did a bit of ferrying. We ferried some Stirlings over to Northern Ireland and some Lancasters down to Southern Britain. Did a Cook’s Tour over some of the targets we’d been in Germany. But generally sort of loafed around.
RG: Cook’s tour.
HA: Alex talked about that. Yeah.
RG: Yeah. With a Cook’s Tour? Was that. Ok. Yeah. Well Alex was going over, he was a pilot. He’s living up at Orange. He was going over specifically to photograph the damage. Is that the same thing? Yeah.
HA: No. No. They just put a heap — a heap of interested fellas.
RG: It was literally a sightseeing tour.
HA: Like a real Cook’s Tour. I don’t know how many. A dozen or something like that in a Lancaster. I took my box brownie and took a few photographs.
RG: But did you land anywhere on the continent or just went out and came back or —?
HA: Somewhere I’ve got where we went. I think it’s probably in the logbook where we went.
RG: Oh. Bound to be. Yeah. Yeah. No. Alex said they were photographing the damage for analysis purposes. Cook’s tour. Base — Brentwood. [unclear] [ Cape Gris Nez, [ unclear] Aachen. Turin. Cologne. Krefeld, Duisberg — it was a tour wasn’t it? Ham. Munster. Wesel. Eindhoven.
LD: Ray, can you read them out loudly for the tape?
RG: Oh yes. Ok.
HA: Start at the with the ones inside Europe.
RG: Yeah. Well, Cape Gris Nez, [unclear] Maastricht. Aachen. Turin. Cologne. Krefeld. Duisburg. Essen. Ham. Munster. Wesel. Eindhoven. Turnhout. Ostende. [unclear] Calais. Cap Gris Nez,
LD: Wow.
RG: Yeah.
LD: That’s comprehensive.
HA: Yeah. It was good. Yeah.
RG: It must have been an odd feeling flying over and knowing that no one was going to shoot at you.
HA: Yeah. Oh yeah. We had a look at the Dortmund Ems Canal. I don’t know if that’s even mentioned there but —
RG: Dortmund. Not the canal itself is mentioned but no.
HA: The Dortmund Ems Canal was a place where Bomber Command did a lot of damage. I think we might have been one of the first raids where they actually breached the canal walls and let the water out and stranded the barges but there was ten attempts at it I think. Altogether. Some of them didn’t work. We did two on the Dortmund Ems Canal itself and another one the Ems Wesel Canal which was nearby. Both night-time raids. And because of its importance it was a very dangerous target to go to. The ack-ack was fierce. Had plenty of searchlights and usually we seemed to have to, for one reason or another, do orbits when we got to the target. Either because cloud was too — we had to come down through cloud to find it or one time they had trouble with the marking and so, they said, ‘Do an orbit until we can get it properly marked.’ ‘Do another orbit.’ ‘Now you can come and do it,’ sort of thing. That sort of business happened.
RG: Yeah.
HA: So, and we did, finally did a daylight one on New Year’s Day to the Dortmund Ems Canal. And I met a fella after the war, playing golf, who’d been in our same squadron and was on the same raid and they got one engine on fire for a start and I wrote in my logbook, log and chart of the day, not the logbook, I’ve got a lot of logs and charts.
RG: Oh ok.
LD: Wow.
HA: “Aircraft on the starboard beam going down on fire. “ Dot dot dot. “Gone.” That was them.
RG: Oh right. Ok.
HA: They didn’t go down. They got down to about four thousand feet and got control of the plane and started off staggering back. Then it got another engine on the same side on fire and kept going. This fella was the bomb aimer and he said he put a piece of rope around the rudder pedal to help the pilot try and keep it straight. They staggered along and got fired at repeatedly because they were on fire but they got as far as the front line. To where the Americans were. And all bailed out successfully.
RG: Wow. Ok.
HA: The pilot was last out and he managed to get out apparently and got a DSO for it. Straightaway.
RG: Well, it sounds like he deserved it too. Yeah. You also did a raid here on the Lützow the battleship?
HA: Oh yes that was probably something special.
RG: Yeah [unclear] special target.
[LD excuses herself]
RG: Well there’s a daytime raid. Bergen as well.
HA: Yeah. Bergen was an interesting one. That was one of the ones where they said, ‘Bert, you ought to come out and have a look at it.’ This target. Most targets I didn’t want to come out of my blackout curtains. But Bergen there was four thousand feet mountains.
RG: On either side.
HA: And in between there was a valley where I, as navigator, was able to get on a Gee position line and keep between the two mountains and come down because we were supposed to bomb at twelve thousand or something but they said come down to the cloud base. Four thousand. We came down to three thousand eight hundred I think before we got out of the clouds. And then we snuck up a little bit. Just skimming under the clouds to the target and they’re shooting from downstairs. They’re shooting —
RG: From above. Yeah. Wow.
HA: He said, ‘You ought to come and see this. We’re being shot at from above as well as below.’
RG: God. Return from Marston Moor. So yeah, I was going to ask that. On any of your trips did you come down somewhere else?
HA: Yeah.
RG: Come back
HA: Quite a few times. I don’t know how many. Two or three perhaps. You come back from Europe and Waddington and all the inland bases would be covered with fog.
RG: Ah ok.
HA: So, they send you somewhere on the coast to land there.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I remember one time we got in a tender then and they drove us back and got lost. And so, we wondered around. It was a really cold night. Looking for, looking for Waddington.
LD: That’s just what you need I imagine.
HA: No signs up anywhere, you know.
RG: I can just imagine some of the conversations you guys would have with the drivers of the tenders, you know. We got all the way back from Germany and you can’t find bloody [laughs] Waddington.
HA: I think one of the navigators finally got in the front with him [laughs] I remember there was a town with a five way intersection where he didn’t know which one to take and he went backwards and bumped into a lamppost and about two hours later he bumped into the same lamp post [laughs] So, we were lost.
LD: Oh dear. Might have been easier to leave it ‘til daytime.
HA: Other times you’d stay. We stayed the night at one of those places too and then just flew back the next day.
RG: Yeah. I had a friend in Canberra. He’s dead now. He was a pilot in Stirlings and then — he was a flight sergeant and his navigator was a sergeant and he said there was a notice up one day saying volunteers for special operations. Instant promotion. Up one rank and he thought, ‘This is a good idea. What do you reckon?’ It was Pathfinder force.
HA: Yeah.
RG: So he converted over to Lancs for that. But he said when he was on Stirlings they were doing a navigation exercise. And it was a daytime one and they flew over another field and one of the, one of the crew was an RAF guy. He lived in the village nearby and he said, ‘Skipper can you put us down there?’ He said. So, they did. They put him down at the airfield. Went and had lunch in the mess and went back out. Ducked off home to see his mum, you know. Came back. And he said it would have been all perfect. He said, ‘I was taxiing up the runway, got to the end to turn on to the runway and clipped his wingtip and broke the navigational knob at the end on a post at the end of the runway. So, when he got back he had to explain how he managed to break it in the air.
HA: Yeah. He was in big trouble.
RG: Did you ever do anything like that? Your —
HA: No.
RG: No.
HA: We came back from a trip one time. I forget which one it was but when we got back to Waddington you couldn’t see the circuit lights. You could see the runway. It was very bad visibility and so the pilot said, ‘I’ve got to land this like a Tiger Moth. We’ll just get around the runway and then come in like that.’
RG: Side.
HA: And the fella that was in the caravan with the green and red light, sort of thing, at the end of the runway. He said afterwards, he said, ‘You fellas almost took my caravan off. Coming down like that.’ And then they closed the, they closed the place down. After that everybody else had to go over to the coast.
RG: Bert could you explain, sorry. The circuit lights. Can you explain how that, that worked?
HA: Yeah. They would have the runway with the runway lights and then they’d have circuit lights going. I don’t know. Half a mile. A mile around or something like that.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Almost touching somebody else’s.
LD: Right.
HA: ‘Cause there were so many of them.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And when you came back wanting to land you’d come in on the right hand side, sort of thing. And you’d call up the girl on the microphone. Tell them who you were. “Mozart dog to slagwort.” They’d say, ‘Go to channel two,’ or something like that. She’d tell you to stay at four thousand. So you’d go around again. Then she’d say, ‘Prepare to land.’ You’d go around. You’d have to say, ‘Wheels,’ at a certain place and come around and then lining up with the runway. You’d say, ‘Funnel.’
RG: Funnel.
HA: Yeah. And if you got the green light from the bloke in the caravan you could land.
RG: Right. Ok. Ok. So with the circuit it was the same diameter with the aircraft stacked in the altitude?
HA: Yeah. Yeah.
RG: So, you had a whole bunch of aircraft circling.
HA: She used to stack you up at four thousand or three thousand. Something like that.
RG: Ok.
HA: So, you wouldn’t run into one other.
RG: And you were all going anti clockwise, I guess.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Well it’s a very responsible position isn’t it?
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah. All done by WAAFs.
RG: Yeah. ‘Cause you would have had aircraft coming back and straggling back really wouldn’t you? All over the place.
HA: Yeah. Sometimes.
LD: And she would potentially be triaging to see who’s going to land before others because of problems.
HA: If somebody had damage they would get priority and they’d leave you stacked up there.
RG: Yeah. I heard, I heard, sorry, it was earlier in the war. I think it was about ‘42 that the Germans were using intruders raids. They tried to get in to the circuits. Get an intruder in to the circuit. A night fighter. Was that happening later in the —?
HA: Yes. When I was at Wigsley. I was duty navigator up in the tower one night and some ME110s came in with the bomber stream coming back and got across the coast without —
RG: Without being detected because they were in the stream. Yeah.
HA: And they came to Wigsley and a couple of the other Con Units. They shot down two training planes at Wigsley.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I don’t know how many they shot down altogether. Five or six I think. They went to Waddington and machine gunned the mess. Had a go at the bomb dump without [laughs] without any damage. Bomb dumps are hard to —
RG: Yeah. They’re well protected.
HA: That was some experience.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Because the people in the control tower — it was probably a duty pilot and a duty wireless op as well as a duty navigator and somebody in charge of it. A bit of a flap on. You know, what do you do with planes being shot down?
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Turn the runway lights off for a start.
RG: Yeah. And then what do you do with the stacked aircraft in the air. Redirect them?
HA: Tell them to look out.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah. That was, that was a strange one.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause I thought later in the war I wondered whether that still happened because the Germans had lost so many aircraft.
HA: Yeah. That would have been, that would have been probably March or something like that. 1945.
RG: Yeah. It was between January and May so, yeah. Wow. So still that late.
LD: So were they using FIDO for you to land with at night?
HA: Only on certain ‘dromes. We didn’t have it on every drome.
LD: Oh right.
HA: There was only a few FIDO ‘dromes.
LD: Yeah.
HA: It was terribly expensive.
LD: Oh, that’s, that’s what I thought. Looking at it it must have been just in terms of fuel.
RG: Did Waddington? Did Waddington have it?
HA: Used up hundreds of gallons of petrol.
RG: Waddington didn’t have it?
HA: No.
RG: No.
LD: No. I sort of wondered how effective it was too. With all that petrol burning there’d be smoke and everything as well as well as, as well as the lights.
HA: Probably turbulence. I should think it’s probably very difficult for pilots to land in.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Hence what, hence what Arthur was doing. Yeah. [unclear] he said it was very accurate by the way.
LD: Yeah.
RG: He said you could land a Lancaster almost hands off at night without any trouble whatsoever.
HA: Oh well.
RG: Then the war ended.
HA: Good planes to fly apparently.
RG: I’ve heard that. Yes. The pilot. A couple of pilots we’ve spoken to have said that. Yeah. They really liked them. Arthur all this stuff. This is obviously very precious. Have they got copies in Evans Head or anywhere else? Or are there any copies of it?
LD: I think there’s a book here too Rob.
RG: Oh. Ok.
LD: Yeah.
RG: Because what I was going to say was if we can manage to get copies of all this stuff — if you’re happy to do that. Put them in the archive as well.
HA: I’ve got the other logbook here somewhere I think. Yeah. I might have it down here. I have another logbook that you could take perhaps. It’s got all the stuff in it for the operations. I copied them out. I’ll find it for you. Probably downstairs somewhere.
RG: If we could copy them. I mean we could copy them here before we go and bring them back to you today.
HA: Well you’re welcome. Yeah.
RG: Yeah. Thank you. I guess we could go to the library or somewhere.
LD: Office Works. If they’re open.
HA: That book right there.
LD: This would be fabulous.
HA: I was telling you about the crew that got shot, well they caught on fire.
RG: Yes.
HA: Their navigator produced this book afterwards about their experiences.
LD: Oh. It’s not yours. I just saw it was from a navigator. I didn’t realise it wasn’t yours.
HA: No. It’s not mine. It’s about their crew’s experience and so forth.
RG: [unclear]
LD: Oh, is this is what you were talking about?
HA: It’s got little bits. See. That’s some of —
LD: A copy of the logbook.
HA: Some stuff out of my log and charts of the day. I lent it to him and he got it put it into the book.
LD: Is that what you were talking about with the copy of the logbook?
HA: No.
LD: Ok.
HA: No. That was just to emphasise that our tour — I think twenty four out of our twenty nine trips were just with 5 Group. We only did about five trips with, big trips with seven or eight hundred of Bomber Command.
LD: Oh yes. Oh you weren’t part of those really huge bomber streams then.
HA: Not as, not as a rule. Mostly we were just 5 Group.
LD: Yeah.
HA: And on some of those little daylight trips only half of 5 Group, you know, about a hundred planes.
LD: Right. That’s a big change from earlier in the war, isn’t it?
HA: Yeah. Yes.
LD: Yeah. Arthur. Sorry Bert. That’s Rob getting the names mixed up when we arrived.
RG: Yeah. Sorry. And I just called you Arthur a minute ago. Sorry about that.
LD: Very bad of me. What sort of experience did you have with the Committee of Adjustment. Did you, within —
HA: Were they the fellas that decided on LMF and that sort of thing?
LD: Yes. Yeah.
HA: Never had any experience of it. No. I heard about it.
RG: Oh, Committee of Adjustment were the guys who cleared the crews who were missing. Cleared their possessions and stuff out.
HA: Oh yes. Yeah. We had another crew in the same room as us. Sixty on one side and sixty on the other side. Both about the same time. And the navigator of the other crew was a good friend of mine because he came from Tooraweenah and he said I’m the only fella that’s ever, he’d ever met in the air force that had ever heard of Tooraweenah let alone been there and had a drink in his father’s pub. And they got shot down on their twentieth trip. So, we got woken up a couple of hours after we went to bed by the service police coming in and asking us if we would just mind looking on when they were sorting out their belongings.
RG: Witnessing that. Yeah.
HA: If there was anything that we particularly wanted to do something with to send to their parents or something like that. But we didn’t find anything that we wanted to. They just took the lot.
RG: Ok. So they just bundled everything together and took it.
HA: In the middle of the night sort of thing. It would have been 4 o’clock in the morning or something it was.
RG: Right. Ok. ‘Cause we’ve heard different — different stations seemed to do it very differently.
HA: Yeah. They were Air Force Military Police.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause other stations they used just airmen and —
LD: Sometimes the chaplain.
RG: Sometimes the chaplain. Yeah. Alex Jenkins, the pilot from Orange. He got shot down and he was the sole survivor. He was in a German military hospital, a Luftwaffe military hospital. Only for a few weeks actually before the British army overran the place in Holland and so he was sent back and he said when he got back all his kit was gone and he had to go down to London.
LD: At the dead meat factory, he described it as.
RG: Yeah. The dead meat factory with all these steel boxes with all the kit in it. He said there were just thousands of them in this warehouse. He had to go in and say, ‘That’s mine. Get it out.’ Yeah.
HA: There’s a few things that I’ve put aside that might be worth your while copying if you want to.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Because you could maybe photograph.
RG: Photograph these but — yeah.
LD: Those. Yeah.
RG: [what I could do with it] actually, we will take copies of those. Thanks. Bert, this chap because this is his book not yours is he still around or is he —
HA: No. He was four or five years older than me. I played golf with him for a few years here at Wagga.
RG: Right.
HA: But he’s gone now. He’d be a hundred, I think, nearly, now. Sam Nelson.
RG: Is there family around or anybody because what would be good is if we could get a copy of the book for the archive but the other thing too for books like this and we did it for another chap at Orange who was a navigator. An RAF guy. He’d written a book about his time in a prison camp and we’re trying to get these things into the National Library because they’ll take them just like that.
HA: You can take that as long as you like.
RG: Would it be alright though ‘cause it’s not you know.
HA: I’ve read it.
RG: No. I was thinking like, if the family might object. I don’t know. Should we notify the family that it’s? Is there any way to contact?
HA: The navigator himself. I think he’s probably gone.
RG: Yeah. He’s gone but — the family —
HA: I could tell you one little snippet about them. His crew were part RAF and part Australian.
RG: Yeah.
HA: At one time they had a reunion in Australia. Went over to Canberra. At the time that the G for George had just been refurbished.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Put back in to the museum and was all roped off. And they went up and I think Sam himself said to one of the attendants, ‘This is our crew that flew in Lancasters and we’ve just had a reunion. How about letting us get in?’ And they held it up and let them get in.
RG: Yeah. Actually, this chap from, Alex from Orange. He did the same thing. It was only – we spoke to him last year and only a month or so before he’d been down to the war memorial. It was the last time he could go down because he was getting a bit frail and he got down there and they put on a lift thing to get him up to the door. He got into the fuselage and he got up to the main spar and the two young guys were in attendance, and they said, ‘Do you want to go any further?’ And he said, ‘Yeah. I want to get over that main spar just one more time.’ And he said, ‘It took quite a while,’ he said, ‘But I got over the damned thing and he got up to the cockpit.’ [And he got the gun ] in the cockpit and he stood on it but on his way out he was coming down. He looked through one of the windows on the side and there’s an ME262 over in the corner. And that was the aircraft that shot him down. Not the same aircraft obviously but yeah and he said that was a bit of an odd feeling. But he said that anybody who had ever flown in Lancasters would understand that. That he just wanted to get over the main spar just once more. They had to help him back across but if he could only get over one way. You know. Yeah.
HA: I can remember — one thing I didn’t mention before. You asked me about damage to the plane. Quite a lot of holes sometimes. If they weren’t too big they just patched them over, you know, But down where the rear gunner slid in to his turret there was a piece of, probably a piece of plywood or something like that that he sat on and then slid in to his turret. One time we came back there was a hole the size of your fist through that. It would have missed the rear gunner by that much. And another time the pilot put his ‘chute in and they inspected it. I don’t know if they always inspected it. Probably they did but anyway there was a lump of shrapnel.
RG: Wedged in the parachute.
HA: In his seat parachute.
RG: And he was sitting on that.
HA: He was sitting on it. It didn’t get through the parachute [laughs]
RG: So none of your crew was ever wounded?
HA: No.
RG: No.
HA: No.
RG: Lucky.
HA: We were lucky.
RG: Yeah. So, with your time at Training Command — because the training losses were really high weren’t they? Guys killed in training. But in, was that with, was there a squadron that you were with at Wigsley or was it a training squadron that was, or just an ATU?
HA: I don’t think they called them a squadron. It was just a unit.
RG: Yeah. Ok. But did you lose any aircraft or any people under training? Apart from the ones shot down by the ME110s?
HA: I don’t think so. When we were on Stirlings we had a hairy experience. There had been a lot of rain and dirt alongsides of the runway was soft and there was a Stirling came in trying to land in a crosswind. Put one wheel off the runway, skidded out into the mud and we went out and helped to dig the bomb aimer out of his turret which he shouldn’t have been in because the mud had pushed him up over the guns.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: Like a bulldozer.
RG: Yeah.
LD: Not much space in there at the best of times is there?
HA: No. So the next day we’re doing a three engine practice landing in a Stirling with, obviously no bombs and not much petrol sort of thing. So you can understand what happened. You’re not supposed to come, once you get below a thousand feet for a three engine landing you should land. So our skipper’s coming in. Same cross wind. Knows about what happened the day before. Got down almost to the deck and said, ‘I’m going around again.’ Pushed the three throttles forward. Told the engineer to start the other engine. The navigator’s doing his usual job calling out the airspeed so he doesn’t have to worry about that.
RG: Yeah.
HA: The stalling speed is about eighty apparently and I’m calling out, ‘Sixty five.’ [laughs] ‘Sixty five.’ ‘Sixty five.’ The pilot’s hanging on.
RG: [laughs] Jesus.
HA: By the time I got to the end of the runway the other engine had started up and because we had flaps down too it took a while to get up in to the air again.
RG: To get the speed up. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: That was touch and go.
RG: Yes. I should say so. So, what about when you were — the other time in the UK between ops. On leave. Did you have any leave as such while you were there?
HA: Oh yes.
RG: On your squadron
HA: Yes. You normally got six days leave every six weeks while you were on ops.
RG: Oh ok. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: A bit less if a few others got killed because they had a waiting list, you know. It was your turn.
RG: Oh yes. I heard about that. Yes. Yes.
HA: So it might be only five weeks.
RG: Yeah. I’ve heard about that. So where did you do on your leaves? You went in to London obviously a few times.
HA: Oh I’ve been to London. Yeah. I went up to Edinburgh one time. Took a girl to the pictures one time in the middle of summer. I was thinking I might have a kiss afterwards. It was still bloody sunny. The sun was up at 9 o’clock 10 o’clock at night. They had double summer time on.
RG: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, you’re not trying to photograph that logbook are you?
LD: Yeah.
RG: Oh it’ll take forever.
LD: No. It wouldn’t take that long but I can’t, the shadow of the camera keeps, the shadow of the phone keeps going over it.
RG: Bert, if we could borrow this stuff.
HA: Yeah sure.
RG: We’ll photograph it and or copy it and then bring it all back to you today.
HA: Ok. That’s fine. Yeah.
RG: We can do that. That’s cool.
HA: I was going to say about leave.
RG: Leave. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
HA: I think after about our twenty trips we had leave and by that time I had a car and the skipper had a car. His was twenty pounds. Mine, I think, was thirty or something like that.
RG: What was yours?
HA: A Morris. Morris Minor. No. A bit bigger than a Morris Minor. It was a little narrow thing but a sedan with high windows.
RG: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HA: Morris something or other.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
HA: A Morris Ten I think it was called. He had a Ford. And we decided we would do some touring down towards Devon and that sort of thing. Together. So we found somebody. I think the engineer might have put us on to an aunt or a niece or something like that and an address we could give down there. Where you couldn’t get to it by train.
RG: Yeah.
HA: And so you could petrol coupons to go.
RG: Oh ok. I was wondering. I was going to ask you about that. Yeah.
HA: Yeah. So we took off and we stayed at places like Stow in the Wold.
LD: They have such funny names some of them don’t they?
HA: Yeah. So we had a nice tour down that way.
LD: Did you have any family in the UK or anything? That you were able to visit?
HA: No. No. Some people did. Like Charlwood.
RG: Charlwood. Yeah. He went to the town of Charlwood to look up his ancestors. Yeah.
HA: When we first got to Brighton the first lot of leave we had there from there they had a scheme called the Lady Ryder Scheme.
LD: Oh yes. I’ve heard of that.
HA: Where they would send you for a week to somebody just to let you settle in to Britain, sort of thing and so I was sent up to a place not far from Windsor to a lady’s who was Mrs Adams.
RG: There you go.
HA: That’s probably why they picked her.
RG: Yeah.
HA: When I got there she’s got this lovely two storey house and she said, ‘I’ll just show you around the house and you can look after yourself. I’ll give you the key because my daughter’s having a daughter or a son or something and I won’t be here. Just help yourself.’ I never saw her again sort of thing.
RG: A bit pointless wasn’t it really. Not helping you to settle you in but still.
HA: But she said, ‘If you go to this little village. I think it was Taplow or somewhere there’s a woman here who likes seeing Australians. Margaret Vyner. Was that the name of the, yeah that’s right. Margaret Vyner was this Australian actress who liked seeing Australians.
RG: Ah ok.
HA: So she gave me her address and I went around there and was made welcome and she was married to an English actor called Hugh Marlowe who was a big handsome fella who’d played The Saint in one of the movies.
RG: Oh ok. Yeah. Yeah.
HA: I hadn’t been there very long and in comes an army captain with a case of brandy that they knew. I can’t just pick his name out from memory now but he was a very famous English actor.
RG: Not David Niven.
HA: David Niven.
RG: You’re kidding.
LD: Oh really.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Right.
HA: Back from North Africa.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
LD: Handsomest man in the universe I think.
HA: Yeah. A big name. So they got stuck in to the brandy and started talking about acting and all this sort of stuff and I said, you know, like, you don’t want me in the way. I snuck off back to Mrs Adam’s place.
RG: Oh well. You could say you met David Niven anyway.
HA: Yeah. And then the next day I decided to go to London. Got into a carriage. David Niven and a heap of others were in the same carriage. And he was there — [laughs] I said, ‘G’day,’ and he said, ‘G’day.’ And that was it [laughs}
LD: He’d had a big night had he?
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah.
RG: What about demob? What happened with demob? So you were there for a couple of months. You were there right up to VJ Day you said. In Training Command.
HA: Yeah. Finally we, we got sent to Brighton to spend some time waiting for a ship to come home. Got in a game of hockey at one stage which was the first time I had a game of hockey over there. I was very keen on hockey at high school. We played at Bournemouth in snow. Sago snow or something. They used a red ball instead of a white one [laughs] But yeah we put in some time at Brighton and then finally got on the Aquitania.
RG: Oh yes. Ok.
HA: Came home around South Africa.
RG: So that was what September or something? Or October. In 1945 still though.
HA: Late 1945.
RG: Yeah.
HA: About November or December ’45 or something like that I think.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Fair bit of waiting around for a ship.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. They were pretty busy. A lot of people to move.
HA: I went home to Mendooran and somewhere on the demob business in Sydney they did aptitude tests and that sort of thing. IQ tests I suppose and said — [pause] It’s lunchtime.
Other: Yes.
HA: In a bit I suppose. Well these people are going to leave very shortly.
RG: We’ll finish this off very quickly and you can have your lunch. We’ll just finish it off very quickly now.
Other: Ok.
RG: We’ve got to the end now.
Other: That’s alright.
RG: Five — ten minutes.
RG: Yeah.
Other: He can talk.
HA: I’ve got a pretty good memory.
RG: You do actually. Yeah.
HA: Where were we up to?
RG: Aptitude tests and IQ tests.
HA: ‘Oh yes,’ they said, ‘You can go to university and do virtually what you want to. Whatever you like.’ I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t want to go back to the public service. That’s one thing. So I elected to do Ag Science. Which I did. And I think only forty of the one hundred or so people who lined up for it passed because half of them were ex-servicemen and the place was overcrowded and they weren’t — didn’t have the facilities for big numbers that they should have had.
RG: Whereabouts was that? Sorry. That was at —?
HA: Sydney Uni.
RG: Sydney Uni. You said you only did a year of that.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Yeah.
HA: I thought to myself it’s a four year course. I’d used up nearly all the money I’d kept from the end of the war. What am I going to do for the next three years? Talked to a couple of fellas who had just finished fourth year Ag Science. They said, ‘The best we seem to be able to do is get a job with the Agricultural Department at about eight pounds a week.’ I said, ‘No.’ Dad had just sold the farm because of the drought and he had a bit of spare money. He said, ‘I could stake you some the money to start share farming.’
RG: That’s you and your brother did that.
HA: So we went share farming and made some money.
RG: Yeah. Yeah. And that was it.
HA: That was it. I did a bit of truck driving and had a sports store and then went back to, oh, went back to uni by correspondence while I was teaching at Mudgee.
RG: Yeah.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Is there anything else you’d like to add or any questions for us?
HA: If you’d like to read through those you’ll find some interesting stuff. I’ve written some three pages in the last couple of days of things that I’ve sort of —
RG: Ok.
HA: Thought were important.
RG: Yeah. Well we’ll definitely, we’ll take copies of those definitely. But we’ll let you have your lunch now.
HA: Yeah.
RG: Thank you very much for that.
LD: Can you just sign this here. This is just to say that —
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AAdamsHG170215
PAdamsHG1704
Title
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Interview with Herbert Adams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:53:42 audio recording
Creator
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Rob Gray
Date
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2017-02-15
Description
An account of the resource
Herbert Adams grew up in New South Wales Australia and joined the Air Training Corps as soon as it was established. He later joined the Royal Australian Air Force and after training, he completed a tour of operations as a navigator with 467 Squadron. He describes crewing up, flying operations in Lancasters and his experience of avoiding aerial attack. He recalls the use of navigational aids including Gee, API and H2S. He then became an instructor at RAF Wigsley. He discusses an occasion when Me 110s attacked the airfield. He talks of a Cook's Tour over Germany when others photographed the after effects of the war. He was demobilised back to New South Wales and later taught for the RAAF.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
California--San Francisco
United States
California
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
467 Squadron
5 Group
aircrew
Anson
bombing
control caravan
Cook’s tour
crewing up
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
fuelling
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Lancaster
Me 110
military living conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
promotion
RAF Lichfield
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Swinderby
RAF Waddington
RAF Wigsley
sanitation
service vehicle
Stirling
superstition
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/201/3336/PBaileyJD1607.1.jpg
d2e2e272e830d018ca52ba02b0e5dcc4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/201/3336/ABaileyJD170113.2.mp3
9586bf522a95037287e44517f779c934
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, John Derek
John Derek Bailey
Bill Bailey
John D Bailey
John Bailey
J D Bailey
J Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with John Derek "Bill" Bailey (b. 1924, 1583184 and 198592 Royal Air Force) service material, nine photographs, a memoir and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 103 and 166 Squadrons from RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Bailey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-07
2017-01-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Bailey, JD
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is a further recording with Derek Bailey who was a bomb aimer with 166 squadron. It’s Friday the 13th of January 2017. Interview taking place in Blenheim Close, Hinckley. During the course of it there may be some sounds in the background as I’m in the process of copying a number of documents from Derek but we’re just talking about the fact that Derek was only twenty years old when he first signed up. That’s right isn’t it Derek?
JDB: No. Eighteen when I first signed up.
HB: Yeah. And that was, that was when you went to, where did you go to sign up?
JDB: Leicester.
HB: You went to Leicester.
JDB: On my eighteenth birthday I got on my bike and went down to Leicester to Ulverscroft Road and signed up.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Went home and told my mother and she burst in to tears.
HB: Oh that’s right. Yes. Yeah. ‘Cause where we finished, where we finished the interview last time we’d just got to sort of the end of the war and we talked a little bit about the guy coming and asking you if you would go and join his crew.
JDB: That’s right.
HB: And we never got on to, never got quite into that. That was, that was something to do with the Far East wasn’t it Derek?
JDB: Yes it was.
HB: Right.
JDB: We got, do you want me to go into it?
HB: Yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Well, the guy who came. At the time I was a bombing instructor up at Lossiemouth and one of the flight commanders came into our office and said, ‘I’m going back on ops. I need a bomb aimer. Who’s coming?’
HB: Right.
JDB: And so I volunteered myself and I joined his crew.
HB: What aircraft was, was that in?
JDB: Sorry?
HB: What aircraft was that in, Derek?
JDB: It was Lancasters.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But at Lossiemouth -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We were flying Wellingtons.
HB: Right.
JDB: Being an OTU and we, he came and enlisted me into his crew and then we got posted down to Swinderby to join Tiger, Tiger Force. The reason we went to Swinderby was that it was a conversion unit, a Heavy Conversion Unit and my new skipper had to do a conversion because he’d done his first tour on Halifaxes and needed to convert to Lancs.
HB: Right.
JDB: So that’s where we were and we got to Swinderby, we did the course and were in Tiger Force and then the war ended.
HB: So, so what was Swinderby like?
JDB: What was it –
HB: At that time of the war.
JDB: Well it was a Heavy Conversion Unit with Lancasters and it was just like any other Heavy Conversion Unit where people from OTU went to Heavy Conversion Unit and converted from Wellingtons to Lancasters.
HB: Yeah. How long had you been, just going back a little bit because you obviously finished your operational tour with -
JDB: 166.
HB: 166 and from there, I presume you had a bit of leave, that’s when you went to, after you’d finished your operational tour -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Where did you go then?
JDB: Lossiemouth.
HB: And that so it was straight to Lossiemouth to the OTU.
JDB: Yeah. That’s right.
HB: And what were you doing at the OTU?
JDB: I was an instructor.
HB: Right.
JDB: A bombing instructor.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I did several courses. I was an expert on the mark, oh Christ, where are we going now, saying I remember things. Mark 14 bomb sight and what other course did I do? I did the Mark 14 bomb sight, I did the actual bombing instructor’s course and there was something else which I can’t remember at the moment.
HB: Was it, would you have done, would you have done any special training to go, before that, to go to the HCU?
JDB: No. No. Not, for Swinderby you mean?
HB: Yeah.
JDB: No. No. That was just out of the blue.
HB: So you were, you were instructing at the OTU at Lossiemouth.
JDB: That’s right.
HB: Who was, who was the chap that came and asked you? Can you remember his name?
JDB: Yes. His name was, oh Christ, his name’s in my logbook actually.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: If you look in my logbook under Swinderby when you get to there and his name will be there. He took a duck in in seniority. He actually went from squadron leader back to flight lieutenant to take off his -
HB: Right.
JDB: The course at Swinderby.
HB: Was that Johnson?
JDB: Johnson. That’s it.
HB: Flight Lieutenant Johnson.
JDB: That’s him.
HB: Right. Yeah. Got him. Yeah. And it’s, and you’re shown all the way through to ‘45 your duty is air bomber.
JDB: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. Yeah so was it, what was, what was he? Was he a bit a character was he?
JDB: Who?
HB: Johnson.
JDB: Well, no not really. He’s just, just another Lanc pilot.
HB: Yeah. No. I just wondered how, sort of out of the blue he’d come.
JDB: Well, he -
HB: You know.
JDB: We’d got quite a few bomb aimers up at Lossiemouth and he got about, I don’t know, five or six to choose from.
HB: Yeah. I just wondered how he’d, he’d obviously, he’d obviously put his name up to go on Tiger Force.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And it’s just it’s always intrigued me this business of how they got crews together. You sort of get the impression he suddenly thinks right I’ll go to Tiger Force and, oh I need a crew.
JDB: Yeah. That’s right.
HB: I’ll go and have a walk around and get a crew.
JDB: Yeah. Well he did.
HB: That’s pretty well what happened.
JDB: That’s exactly what he did. That’s what he did. He went around each section.
HB: Right.
JDB: The navigation section and sorted himself out a navigator, he sorted me out as a bomb aimer.
HB: Right.
JDB: Now. Oh I know, yes he got the gunners there and the wireless op. They were all sorted out up there and then we had to wait till we got to Swinderby before he got a flight engineer.
HB: Right.
JDB: And then, the input flight engineer we got, would you believe was a youngish, in fact he was a bloke I knew, I went to school with.
HB: Never.
JDB: He was recruited as our flight engineer and he was a pilot.
HB: Right.
JDB: Yeah because they were now getting a surplus of pilots you see and so this guy, I can’t remember his name but he was recruited as our flight engineer and he was, like I say he was a, he was a trained pilot.
HB: And you’d been to school with him.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Where would that, which school would that have been?
JDB: South Wigston Intermediate.
HB: Wow.
JDB: I can’t remember his bloody name.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: He was in the ATC with me at Wigston.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah ‘cause that’s right because yeah I remember you telling me now. You joined the ATC.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. And then when it, when it came the chance to, to join up, yeah. So you’ve all got together at, or the majority are together. You got to Swinderby. You’ve got a flight engineer. So, was there, like special training for Tiger Force at that point? I mean what was -
JDB: Yeah. Well the only bit of special training that I remember was, for Tiger Force, was that we were using a different navigational radar system. Instead of Gee which we used -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Over Europe we were using, I think it was Lucan? Locan? No. It was a long range Gee if you like.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Radar system and that was the only bit of training we got. We needed that to get to the bloody Far East in the first place.
HB: Yeah. So, so, where, where would you, where would you have been based had you actually got out with Tiger Force. Where would you gone to?
JDB: We were going to Okinawa.
HB: Oh right. Right. Yeah. Because obviously the Yanks had -
JDB: Well the Yanks were making Okinawa base ready for us
HB: Right.
JDB: And that’s where we were going.
HB: Right. It makes, it makes sense to do that. Yeah. And how, so how far did you get into that training before you were all stood down then?
JDB: Well we finished our course and then coincidentally the war ended as we were about to be posted to a squadron.
HB: Oh right. So oh of course you’re still on an HCU aren’t you?
JDB: Yes. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So when you finished with 166.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Went to Lossiemouth. Instructor. But you were instructing on Wellingtons.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Did you not have to do any sort of conversion back for that? To go back on Wellingtons?
JDB: Well I did, I did a specialist course as an instructor you know because what we used to do as an instructor apart from delivering the odd lecture was to fly as a screened, a screened bomb aimer, fly with them to check that they were going through the procedures correctly and doing what they should be doing and they were all Free Frenchmen. We were training Free Frenchmen up at Lossiemouth.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Oh right. ‘Cause, ‘cause there weren’t that many French bomber squadrons were there?
JDB: No. Well they were in 4 Group.
HB: Yeah. I think the French, one of the French squadrons I know about was based at Elvington.
JDB: That’s right
HB: Yeah.
JDB: They were. They were. Have you been to Elvington?
HB: I have.
JDB: Yes.
HB: I have. Very interesting.
JDB: Interesting isn’t it?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: That’s, so, right. So the Free French came to you for the training and then you get hijacked for Tiger Force and then as you say the war ends.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So how did, what was the process of you dispersing then back -
JDB: Well -
HB: From that?
JDB: Well, before I left Lossiemouth, before I actually left there to go to Swinderby we started flying the Wimps down to Hawarden which is near Chester.
HB: The Wimps being?
JDB: Wellingtons.
HB: The Wellingtons. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. And we, we took three down and brought one back with other crews in. Well not the entire crews.
HB: Right.
JDB: And so we ferried the aircraft. They were, I must say they were all disbursed with almost, almost undue haste.
HB: Right.
JDB: Really.
HB: Oh right. ‘Cause, yeah, so you, you flew out and flew these lot back.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Did you, did you ever do any of these Cook’s Tours?
JDB: No. I didn’t. No. Of course I wasn’t on a squadron then you see.
HB: Oh so. Right. I thought it was just something that happened, you know.
JDB: No. The squadron aircraft did the Cook’s Tours.
HB: Right.
JDB: Lancs. I don’t think they used any Wimps or anything.
HB: Yeah. ‘Cause I did speak to a guy who he was ground crew with Halifaxes and he did a Cook’s Tour in a Halifax.
JDB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: All down around the Ruhr and -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Around there. Oh right. So where did you actually, where were you stationed when you were actually demobbed then Derek?
JDB: When I was what?
HB: When you were demobbed. When you were, when you were -
JDB: When I, ah, I was stationed at Headquarters Tech Training Command.
HB: Oh right. Oh right. And what, and what rank did you have then?
JDB: Flight lieutenant.
HB: You were flight lieutenant then. Right. Right. And where was that at? Where was that based?
JDB: Brampton.
HB: At Brampton.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Right. Interesting. So the demob comes -
JDB: Yeah, well the demob. What happened was we were posted from, oh it was a ring around but we were posted from Swinderby. Went to, where did we go? Blyton I think. And they said, ‘What do you want to do?’ Well on the list of what do you want to do was Bomb Disposal Western Europe and that was getting rid of stocks of bombs so I thought well that, that suits my trade. I’ll put myself down for that and I did and I found myself sent to, I found myself being designated an equipment officer and I was sent to Bicester to do the course.
HB: Oh right. So yeah. Right. I suppose yeah so you’re going to go, you’re going to go to Europe.
JDB: No. I didn’t.
HB: Or wherever to get rid of bomb stores.
JDB: Oh yeah. I think they were dumped at sea.
HB: Yeah. But you never actually got to do it.
JDB: No.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: No. Well that’s sod’s law isn’t it? You know.
HB: Always the way.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Always the way. Yeah. So, so that doesn’t happen.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And you’re going to leave the RAF. What, what –
JDB: Well no. No. I’m not going to leave the RAF.
HB: Right.
JDB: What I’d done I had actually signed on for six months past my demob date. My number.
HB: Right.
JDB: And in the meantime I’d applied for an extended service commission with a view to staying in the Royal Air Force.
HB: Right.
JDB: But in fact I didn’t hear anything and I was talking to the peace staff guys at command headquarters and they were saying, ‘Well you know we can’t rush things. We must, you know.’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got to make my mind up. I have got to make my mind up whether to leave the service or there won’t be a job for me where I, where I had a job before the war,’ sort of thing and and the day came when I had, I had to make a decision because my employer or potential employer had said, ‘Well look Derek if you’re going to sign on for any more time in the service we can’t keep your job for you.’ You know. ‘You, either you come back now or you don’t come back,’ and so I had, for various reasons, I decided that I would leave the, leave the air force. Which I did.
HB: Yeah. And how did you feel about doing that? Was that -?
JDB: Well I tried to go back again.
HB: Did you?
JDB: Yeah.
HB: When was that?
JDB: And I failed. Shortly afterwards. Not too long afterwards. I applied, I applied to start again sort of thing and I went for an interview to London to to air ministry as it then was and one of the questions the guy asked me was, ‘Well you’ve applied for a commission as an equipment officer.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, why?’ I said, ‘Well because you don’t want any more bomb aimers now and I would have liked to have been a pilot but right in the early days I was told I couldn’t be a pilot for an eyesight defect.’
HB: Right.
JDB: And so this guy persisted and said, ‘Well, why didn’t you apply when you re-applied? Why didn’t you apply again for a pilot?’ I said, ‘Because I thought it was a waste of time.’ Anyway I didn’t get it so -
HB: Oh right.
JDB: And by then, by then I’d come to the conclusion that I’d be better where I was anyway so that was the end of that.
HB: So we’re back to Civvy Street and -
JDB: Back to Civvy Street.
HB: And if I remember rightly you were working in the transport industry -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Weren’t you?
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So what was that like?
JDB: Well, it was, it was right in the middle of nationalisation.
HB: Right.
JDB: The company was being nationalised and blah blah blah and you know, eventually I ended up with a private company. I applied for and got a job with them and within about six months I was made a director of that company and that’s what I did for my entire working life then. I was a company director in road transport and, until I retired.
HB: Yeah. When did you actually retire Derek, from that?
JDB: When did I?
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Oh I was in my seventies.
HB: Blimey.
JDB: I’d already taken my pension. I was taking the pension and I was still working.
HB: Right. Right. So you’ve gone back to the transport industry but you do come back to the, was it, it was the ATC wasn’t it you came back to?
JDB: The what?
HB: The ATC.
JDB: No. Oh yeah. Do you mean as far as the uniform is concerned?
HB: Yeah because -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: At some stage you went back in to –
JDB: Yes I did. Yeah. After. It was a few years afterwards. There was a gap and a bloke came to me and said, ‘I’m with 1F founder squadron of the ATC in Leicester.’ It was a bloke I knew.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And he said, ‘I need someone to teach our air cadets air navigation. How are you fixed?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t know. Tell me more.’ Anyway, to cut a long story short I said ‘Ok I’d give it a go,’ so I did and I went to 1F and then a little while later I went to see a bloke on business and I was wearing an ATC tie and this guy said to me, Des Starbuck his name and he said to me, ‘Are you in the ATC?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘Well I run the Coalville squadron and I’m desperately short of adults. How, do you feel like helping me out?’ So, so I, I sort of said, ‘Well I wouldn’t mind.’ And so the CO of 1F, he wasn’t very chuffed when I told him I wanted to leave his squadron but Coalville suited me better.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Anyway I, so I went to Coalville and when I’d been there a few weeks old Des Starbuck said to me, he said, ‘Hey look, Derek, come on,’ he said, ‘You might as well get back into uniform and do the job properly.’ And I said, ‘Well alright. I’ll give it a go.’ So I did.
HB: Right.
JDB: And as I’d been commissioned before it was a very quick process. All a matter of filling a form in really.
HB: Oh right. Right. Yeah.
JDB: So -
HB: So, what year, what year, what year would this be Derek?
JDB: Well, it would be, I retired when I was fifty six and I did twenty years so it was nineteen, no, fifty six, and fifty do a bit of working out here.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I retired when I was fifty six.
HB: Right.
JDB: So that means, and I was born, born in ’24.
HB: Yeah. So that’s 1980. Yeah.
JDB: I’ve lost myself.
HB: 1924. Plus -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Plus fifty six.
JDB: Yeah. Well that’s when I retired.
HB: In 1980.
JDB: 1980. That’s when I retired.
HB: Right.
JDB: Twenty years I served so it was 1960.
HB: About 1960.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: All through the interesting years then.
JDB: Yes.
HB: All the youngsters with nothing to do and wanting to do things.
JDB: Yeah. That’s it.
HB: Brilliant. Right. And now, and were you able to bring your wartime experiences to the ATC?
JDB: Oh yeah. To some extent. The experience of the Royal Air Force was, was very helpful.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: So I was teaching them. I was teaching them air navigation because that was a subject for the ATC and some various other ones as well. I’ve got one of the textbooks still.
HB: Yeah. Did you actually fly with the ATC?
JDB: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah. What sort of flying did they do?
JDB: Chipmunks.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Gliding and if you went to an RAF base for camp probably get a flight in whatever aircraft they were operating at the time.
HB: Oh right. Right.
JDB: I had, I had trips to Malta, Germany and I took the first ATC camp to Cyprus. I was camp commandant.
HB: Oh right. When would that be Derek do you think?
JDB: It was Cyprus.
HB: Yeah. That would still be in the 60s.
JDB: I can’t remember exactly now. It, I must have some record somewhere. What happened was we used to have annual summer camps for selected cadets in Malta.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And then when we withdrew from Malta we weren’t able to have the summer camps there and so they decided they’d try Cyprus but it was bit of a problem because of the cost.
HB: Right.
JDB: But anyway we did Cyprus and as I say I took the first camp there and it was very good, very successful and it’s a plum, I don’t know whether they’re still using it at the moment because of the, there must be a lot of actual operational flying going on from there at the present time with the conflicts in the Middle East.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: So -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I don’t know.
HB: I just, one of the things that I thought of after we spoke last time Derek, because, because of the way you trained.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And we went through quite a few of the operations that you flew on but I don’t think we actually talked about when you were flying operations.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What a, what a sort of a typical, your job typically running up to and then going on the operation. I mean you’d obviously get called for briefing.
JDB: Yes.
HB: So having been called for or given a time for briefing what would your job do then until such time as you took off on an op? What would, what would you actually be doing?
JDB: Well the first thing to do, you’d go to the mess and have a meal.
HB: Oh right [laughs] yeah. Don’t forget to -
JDB: And then we go down to the flight, down to the briefing room at the prescribed time and go through the briefing.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Until time to go out to the aircraft and then carry on from there.
HB: So what would your relationship be with the armourers?
JDB: Well I’d see the armourers earlier in the day.
HB: Right.
JDB: I used to go and see how many, how many bombs we’d got on board and how much petrol. Then I could guess where we were going. [laughs]
HB: Oh right. Right.
JDB: Roughly. If you’ve got a full load of juice.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And a minimum load of bombs we’d be going on a short range one.
HB: Right.
JDB: And conversely of course. And then we would sometimes sit out on the, on the dispersal in a little shed they’d got there and having a chat with the armourers while waiting for take-off time.
HB: Did you, was part of your job actually checking the bomb load and checking the actual bombs?
JDB: No. It wasn’t. Nothing. Just checking they were on board. They were on. What was said were on. That’s all really.
HB: So how would you do that? Would you actually go to the bomb bay?
JDB: Just count them. Have a look.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: I mean sometimes the bomb bay was full and sometimes it wasn’t.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: The only, the only exception to the general run of things was when we were doing a bit of mine laying.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And then they would put the mines on board. The naval petty officer was in charge of that and they’d load the mines on to the aircraft. Usually six of them. Six two thousand pounders. And then they would close the bomb doors and they were on for, until release where they were meant to be.
HB: Right.
JDB: They were never taken off and taken back to the bomb dump. Bloody things were magnetic and acoustic mines.
HB: Oh right. So how, how, I mean I suppose obviously there’s safety measures within the aircraft.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Particularly if they’re magnetic so once, once, once you’ve got them on the aircraft and you’re ready to take off you just, your job then is just to –
JDB: Drop them where they’ve got to be dropped.
HB: Drop them where they’ve got to be dropped.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So you know, there’s no, you don’t go back during the flight and check everything and all of that.
JDB: Oh no. No. No.
HB: No. So –
JDB: I can’t get at them.
HB: No. No. So when you’ve taken off. You’re flying across to the target. Just can you just explain to me, say you’re about a mile, two miles out from the target and you’re going to start lining up for your bomb run. What, what’s the process then that you’re going through?
JDB: Well, when we’re approaching the target you would, the navigator had control and then when we were sort of whatever distance we decided we were away from the target he’d hand over to me and I’d be down the nose and start a visual, you’d have to have visual approach. We start the approach up in the cabin, on the H2S which is a radar system.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: It’s a ground mapping radar.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And I would get, we’d locate, locate the point on the coast or whatever datum we were given and we would have to do an approach on that point and when we were directly overhead that started the countdown and from there I would be telling the pilot to steer a certain course from that point and I would have the bomb doors open and then we’d, after the sort of ten minutes or whatever time we’d got we’d, I would say after ten minutes, ‘Change course onto -’ whatever it was, if he needed to change course that was. Change course and start counting again to the, how many seconds and then I would release the weapon.
HB: Right. Right.
JDB: Or weapons. As the case -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: May be.
HB: Right. And that’s, don’t forget your tea Derek.
JDB: Oh I hadn’t forgotten it. Thank you.
SB (Wife of John): I’ll just make a cold drink.
HB: So, right, so you and this all the, all the systems obviously when you’re on the bomb run coming in.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Are you physically, are you physically controlling the aircraft or are you telling the pilot what to do?
JDB: Telling the pilot.
HB: Right. So at no time do you actually take over control of the aircraft for the actual bombing.
JDB: No. No. I could do. I could have done if needed to but generally speaking if I was going to do the drop on radar and not visually then I would probably control the aircraft then.
HB: Right. Right. And you’d, had you got sort of electronic controls in your position?
JDB: Well some aircraft did and some didn’t because there weren’t, everybody didn’t drop mines, didn’t do mine laying. So, yeah, usually I would tell the pilot when to, when to do turns and whatever. That’s all.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: The actual release of the weapons I would have control of at all times.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Oh that’s, yeah, sorry. I just, I thought after the last interview I suddenly thought we’d talked about various bits and bobs.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: But we never actually went through the process of -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: How, how you actually did your job. So you’ve pushed the button or flipped the switch or whatever and the bombs have gone.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What’s your job then on on the flight home?
JDB: On the flight home. Well, close the bomb doors and secure the aircraft and that’s it. That’s me done unless I need to use the H2s for navigational purposes.
HB: Right. So, what would be that, that would be an assistance to the navigator.
JDB: Yeah. That’s right, yeah, give him bearings or whatever.
HB: Right. Right. And then it’s home for tea and another meal.
JDB: Yes. That’s right.
HB: Right.
JDB: Egg, bacon and chips.
HB: The staple diet.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Brilliant. Brilliant. Right. Well I think probably that’s covered the bits I wanted to try and cover Derek.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: If that’s alright with you.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What, I think when we spoke last time you said you’d have a bit of a think about it for me. Sort of things, things where you got a bit of a fright or something that was really really silly that happened.
JDB: I told you about, about [Abbeyville] didn’t I? When we bombed the flying bomb site. The second operation with 103 squadron.
HB: I can’t remember that one, I don’t think.
JDB: Well, we, our first operation, very first was against Stettin up on the Baltic. Nine and a half hours airborne in a Lanc which is not funny.
HB: No. No.
JDB: And anyway that’s the first operation but we, but as far as attacking defences was concerned it was a doddle you know. Nothing to it really. Anyway, second operation we go in for briefing and it’s a flying bomb sight and it’s only just in France which is obvious for a flying bomb site to be. It’s the right place. And it wasn’t far and we thought, oh this is a piece of cake. Anyway, we get briefed and I think, I’m guessing now Harry but I think we were briefed to bomb at something like six thousand feet which is pretty low.
HB: Oh yeah.
JDB: And we went over, we got over there and we were over, nearly over the target area and there was ten tenths cloud so it was a question of well we can’t see the bloody ground let alone the target and then we get the master bomber on the blower saying, ‘Main force. Ground not visible. Descend to three thousand feet.’
HB: Oh.
JDB: ‘Descend to three thousand feet. No opposition.’ And that were his very words and do you know who that was?
HB: Go on.
JDB: Then wing commander. Later a group captain, VC man.
HB: Oh is this the Leonard Cheshire?
JDB: Yeah. Cheshire.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Leonard Cheshire, who was the master bomber.
HB: Ah
JDB: Amazing isn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Anyway, there we were. Anyway, we said ok and we broke cloud and as luck would have it well it wasn’t luck it was a bit of skill in fact we broke cloud heading straight for the target and suddenly bang bang bang and I was looking out of the front at the time and two shells burst right in front of us and so so we were on the bombing run then.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: So I pressed, I pressed the tit and nothing happened so we peeled away and I I told skip, ‘Nothing’s happened. I’m going to change the fuse.’ So he did an orbit left and I changed the fuse, nothing happened again so we decided to bugger off and then suddenly the rear gunner says, ‘We’re on fire skip,’ he said. Looked out the back and said, ‘We’re not on bloody fire at all. That’s something else.’ And anyway we got away and it transpired that what he’d thought we were on fire and smoke was pouring backwards was vaporising bloody hydraulic oil.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: Yeah so from that point on we’d got no hydraulics. The bomb doors were open and we had no hydraulics. Anyway, we climbed away and started heading back for the, back to the North Sea and we flew into cloud of cunim and we lost, the skip lost his, lost some of his instruments. He had no altimeter.
[phone starts ringing]
HB: That’s alright
JDB: Alright.
HB: That’s alright. I’ll just pause.
JDB: Alright.
HB: I’ll just pause. I’ll pause it while.
[machine paused]
HB: Right. Just recommencing after that.
JDB: Doing that.
HB: Yeah. So, so is this the one where you came through the cloud to Wolds?
JDB: Through the cloud?
HB: To, was it to the Wolds.
JDB: Yeah. We came. No. No. No. No.
HB: That was a different one wasn’t it?
JDB: No. No.
HB: So you’ve -
JDB: We went into this cloud and skip said, skipper said, ‘Christ I don’t know whether we’re inside out or upside down or what,’ you know. ‘Prepare to abandon’. That was the only time I heard that said during my career. ‘Get your parachutes on and prepare to abandon.’ So we carried on and we came out of the cloud and de-iced and the instruments reappeared and we were all right so we ploughed on up the North Sea to the dropping zone and there I got the wireless op to help me and we, I had two pieces of wire about eighteen inches, two foot long with a hook on the end to trip the release mechanisms and drop the bombs manually. Which we did. Dropped them all in the bloody sea and got back late and then it’s a question of well we’ve got no hydraulics. What about the undercart? Well you can actually blow the undercart down with compressed air but you can only do it once and you can’t get them back up again.
HB: Oh no.
JDB: So we blew the wheels down and we’d got no brakes of course so we, we did a circuit, landed and rolled and couldn’t stop, you know and just rolled just to the end of the runway and then got it away and it was full of bloody holes the thing was.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But that was that. A bit of a come back to earth lads.
HB: Yeah and was anybody hurt on that?
JDB: Sorry?
HB: Was anybody of the crew injured on that?
JDB: No. Would you believe? No. Nobody. The shell must have been just below the shrapnel to knock out wiring and pipes and things and leave the vitals intact.
HB: Blimey.
JDB: So it was quite a, quite a thing.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But we didn’t have any other major scares.
HB: So basically, so basically, Leonard Cheshire brought you down and you got bracketed pretty well straight away.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Right. I bet you didn’t buy him a drink in the bar.
JDB: He wasn’t on our bloody squadron.
HB: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. Well I suppose he’d flown, he’d flown over the target and those German gunners were not stupid. They didn’t shoot at one aeroplane. They just waited till they got several of us there.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And, you know.
HB: What, what was, I mean it’s something that we always ask and I didn’t really go in, much into it in the last interview.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What, when you were actually on the squadron, you were on 103 and then predominantly you were with 166.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What, what was your social life like? What, how, what did you do for a social life?
JDB: Well when we first went to the squadron it was just after, not long after D-Day and we were confined to camp. We weren’t allowed off camp for a while because of short notice calls.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And then after that we used to get, you were allowed off, you had [limited bus], let you go into Scunthorpe for the night or whatever and that was about it but the main social life was around the village pub.
HB: Right.
JDB: Which is still there. The Marrowbone and Cleaver.
HB: Oh yeah.
JDB: The Chopper.
HB: Yeah. I think you mentioned that last time.
JDB: Yeah. I did.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Did you ever have any socialising on the actual airfield or was that just not allowed?
JDB: Sorry not with you.
HB: Did you have any sort of like dances or anything like that on the airfield itself.
JDB: Oh they had occasional things like that in the, in the WAAF mess once in a while yeah but generally speaking there wasn’t much social life. Mind I had my problem with my, my face as well didn’t I? I think I told you about that. No?
HB: Oh was this when, did you have, you had like a rash or something didn’t you?
JDB: Yeah. That’s right
HB: Yes.
JDB: Yeah
HB: You did. Yeah we went, we covered that in our first interview.
JDB: I think I told you about that. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Oxygen mask dermatitis.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: It -
HB: A bit of a risk that one.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: But right, right. [coughs] Excuse me. Well, I’ll tell you what Derek I think we’ll just finish it there ‘cause it’s what time is it? Nearly 12 o’clock.
JDB: Don’t worry about it.
HB: I’ll just -
Dublin Core
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ABaileyJD170113
PBaileyJD1607
Title
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Interview with John Derek "Bill" Bailey. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:49:33 audio recording
Creator
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Harry Bartlett
Date
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2017-01-13
Description
An account of the resource
Part two of the interview with Derek Bailey, a bomb aimer with 103 and 166 Squadrons.
Towards the end of the war, Derek did various bomber instructor courses and became a bombing instructor at RAF Lossiemouth on Wellingtons for Free French aircrew in 4 Group. He was an expert on the Mark XIV bombsights. He would deliver some lectures and fly as a screened bomb aimer to check they were following the correct procedures.
On the invitation from a flight commander, Derek volunteered to join Tiger Force at RAF Swinderby, a Heavy Conversion Unit onto Lancasters. They trained on a different navigational radar system, Loran, to get to Okinawa in the Far East. However, war then ended.
Derek was posted to RAF Blyton where he was designated as an equipment officer for bomb disposal in western Europe. He went on a course at RAF Bicester. Derek was demobilised when stationed at Technical Training Command headquarters at RAF Brampton. He had wanted to stay on in the RAF but did not want to lose his job with his employer.
Derek describes a typical day on operations and his role as bomb aimer, as well as a difficult operation to Abbeville in which Leonard Cheshire was the master bomber.
After the war, Derek was a company director in road transport and was very much involved with the Air Training Corps.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Oxfordshire
Scotland--Moray
France
France--Abbeville
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
103 Squadron
166 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bomb disposal
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bicester
RAF Blyton
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kirmington
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Swinderby
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/209/3348/ABellJR150727.2.mp3
9d02f41eac38212c78457bf9772c6f97
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bell, John Richard
John Richard Bell
John R Bell
John Bell
J R Bell
J Bell
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Wing Commander John Richard Bell DFC (-2024). He was a bomb aimer with 619 and 617 Squadrons in Flying Officer Bob Knights’ crew.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bell, JR-UK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The interview is taking place at Mr Bell’s home in Storrington on 27th July 2015. During this interview Mr Bell recounts his experiences as a bomb aimer in 617 Squadron.
JB: I and my crew begged Wing Commander Cheshire when we asked if we could join his squadron and he was sat in his office, very nice man to talk to, we were an experienced crew and he still wanted to know why we wanted to join his squadron, so we told him that we would like to be flying a little lower, nearer the ground, but he said ‘oh, but we’re not going to be doing that any more, we’re operating normally’ which of course they were but they were operating mainly over targets in northern France, practically to the build up to the invasion obviously and one installation that I remember on operation was against the [unclear] works at Limoges which was the first time that Leonard Cheshire had marked the target with his own flares and, er, having found that marking was essential he came over the factory at about two to three hundred feet and dropped twice, to drop flares on the target and to ensure that the French workers in the factory could get out and get into the shelter, the word being that we should try to avoid killing French workers during our bombing campaign. He was a very compassionate man and very easy to talk to and very good, very easy to get on with, he didn’t stand on ceremony and he didn’t order you to do things, he just asked you to follow him, whatever he was prepared to do, he was an exceptional man, an exceptional leader. Early in 1944 the Allies became aware of [unclear] reconnaissance of some large structures, concrete structures being built in the Pas de Calais area of France. They did not know what they were at that time although they suspected they were something to do with the V weapons programme which had been discovered after the attacks on Peenemunde. Following the attack on Peenemunde it was known that the Germans were developing two weapons, a rocket programme and also a pilot’s - aeroplane programme carrying, each carrying one tonne of explosive warheads. The V1 launch site was discovered in the Pas de Calais area early in 1944 and also at that time the two large concrete structures which the Allies were not sure of their purpose but felt they were probably connected to the rocket – V2 Rocket programme. The V1 sites were attacked by Bomber Command throughout the next three months of 1944 and the construction of the - what became known as the V2 programme, the two sites, one in the Eperlecques Forest and one near Saint-Omer at [unclear] were watched as the building progressed but they were large concrete structures and could not be attacked, although they were attacked with conventional weapons but not put out of action until the 617 Squadron was equipped with the Tallboy in June 1944. The site at [unclear] near Saint-Omer consisted of a chalk quarry with a cliff at the far end of the quarry and on the top of the cliff we saw the construction of a concrete dome, obviously built there to protect the workings within the cliff. 617 Squadron were assigned to attack it on – several times in June and July, I think about four times altogether, mainly because of cloud interfering on two occasions and Tallboys were used to destroy all the facilities of the site and in fact one landed close to this concrete dome which obviously destroyed the foundations of the structure. One of the operations I was on was the 17th July 1944 and it was a clear day and we approached the site from the north-west and from a long way away I could see quite clearly, from the bomb aimer’s position, the dome covering the installation in the quarry. We approached at the normal speed of close on one hundred and eighty to two hundred miles an hour and at a height of around eighteen thousand feet. I signed up er [pause]
AP: It’s OK John, just keep -
JB: I switched on the bomb sight and carried out all of the normal procedures for the bombing run and directed the pilot to - on the bombing run. This took some time, we were on the run for at least five minutes and the - I had the dome in my bomb sight for all of that time and at the appropriate moment the bomb was automatically released. It was a clear day and I saw the bomb – the Tallboy going down and I followed it all the way down to the target and it exploded just beside the dome, there was an enormous explosion, so that was recorded as an almost - a direct hit and in fact I did shout out ‘Bullseye’ to the crew to let them know that we’d had a pretty good hit.
AP: And the consequence of what happened, about what it did, can you talk a little bit about what – later on you discovered that -
JB: Later, much later, we discovered that the foundations of the dome - the supports of the dome had been severely disrupted and it had tilted to one side. Obviously the site was then unusable, other Tallboys had bombed the whole of the site and the whole facility was useless by then. On the 25th of July 1944 the squadron continued its attacks on the V weapons sites in the Pas de Calais, we bombed the first V2 site that we’d seen at the Eperlecques Forest and this was a large concrete structure which would have taken a great deal of destruction by Tallboys to put it out of action. It - there were several direct hits on the target on that particular day and eventually the installation was put out of action by our attacks and only the oxygen-producing facility was maintained there. Both sites were never able to launch V2s as they were programmed to do. A third construction site was discovered at a village called Mimoyecques, also in the Pas de Calais area, and it was noted that there were a number of concrete underground installations with a pattern of openings in the tops of the structures. The purpose was not known although it was thought that they were – it was going to be used for the launch of some sort of rocket projectile. The whole site was bombed by the main force of Bomber Command and also by 617 Squadron and their Tallboys were able to penetrate deep into the earth and destroy the foundations of these concrete structures, thereby putting it out of action. It was only discovered - the true purpose of the site was discovered after the Armies – the Allied Armies moved through following D-Day and found that it was a site designed to launch projectiles with a warhead of several kilograms towards London and the number of missiles that would have been launched could have been as high as three thousand a day. The intention of the site was to bombard London with projectiles from these - from this supergun, each carrying a warhead of around thirty kilos of explosive and the intention was from the number of projectiles that they could launch would result in some three thousand shells, so-called shells landing in London every hour and the destruction of the site obviously saved London from an enormous barrage of artillery from long range. This site at Mimoyecques was extremely difficult to bomb because it was all buried underground and there was very little to see on the surface except two concrete structures but er – and of course the whole of the site had been bombed pretty heavily by the normal weapons by aircraft from Bomber Command and the United States Airforce so the 617 crews had difficulty in seeing the site but nevertheless were accurate enough with their Tallboys. On July 6th 1944 617 Squadron aircraft, led by the CO, Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire, attacked the site at Mimoyecques with Tallboys and completely destroyed the site. This operation on the V3 site at Mimoyecques was Wing Commander Cheshire’s one hundredth bombing operation throughout his bombing career from 1941 onwards and he was stood down from bombing following that day, he was then awarded the Victoria Cross for completing all the operations and for his valour in doing so and his leadership and he was followed in command of the squadron by Wing Commander [unclear] Tate, Wing Commander Tate. In 1941 Barnes Wallis who had given great thought to the bombing of various targets in Germany, particularly those underground or buried installations, and he saw the need for a bomb other than a blast bomb, which was currently in use, a bomb to penetrate the earth and explode below causing some sort of an earthquake. His thought at that time was for a very large bomber flying at forty thousand feet and carrying a ten tonne bomb which of course was quite impractical at that time, but in 1943 the launch of the Air Ministry brought out his project again and asked him to design something that could be carried by perhaps the aircraft of the day, the Lancaster, and so he designed what became known as the Tallboy and he designed it in three sizes – four thousand pounds, twelve thousand pounds and twenty-two thousand pounds, all at that time called Tallboys. The four thousand pound was tested and was found not to be as stable as they thought it should be so the fins on the tail were turned to five degrees from the vertical and this helped to - the bomb to spin as it was dropped thereby giving it great stability and the twelve thousand pounder then became known as the Tallboy and the twenty-two thousand pounder was called the Grand Slam, the twelve thousand pounder was issued to 617 Squadron immediately after D-Day and the first operation was against the Saumur tunnel on I think the 9th of June 1944 and the – it was a complete success in destroying the tunnel and from then on the squadron operated almost solely with Tallboys and later with the Grand Slam, the weapons being central in the destruction of the V weapon sites and any other installation that had been buried below the ground. It had also of course - was later found very – found to be the ideal weapon for destroying bridges and canals so a great weapon by Barnes Wallis again used by the squadron. On the 5th August 1944 we carried out a daylight attack on the U-Boat pens at Brest. This was in bright daylight, sunny day, and I can remember dropping my Tallboy onto the area of the pens and I think it hit fairly close by. My memory of the day is that there was an enormous amount of flak, very heavy flak over the target area but we were, we were not hit, we escaped. My job in the crew in the Lancaster was as a bomb aimer and also as front gunner if need be and my job was to guide the pilot towards the target and then to concentrate on dropping the bombs on whatever the target was and dropping them as accurate as possible and my abiding picture of the whole of all the operations I did, particularly those over Germany at night, was of approaching the target area - the city that was under attack or was about to be attacked and to be met with a wall of anti-aircraft fire. The German gunners would fire their shells into a box at around twenty thousand feet, which was the height we were aiming at, aiming to be at, and we just had to fly through that. It was a pretty awesome sight to behold some miles before we reached the target but by concentrating on what we had to do we just had to ignore it, there was no way you could ig – you could dodge anti-aircraft shells, you just have to fly through them and hope that you’re not going to be hit even by a small amount of shrapnel which of course could damage a vital part of the aeroplane but we were very fortunate that all our operations – that we got through all of them unscathed. Following the raid on the German dams 617 Squadron later became, became used to operate on many other targets for which it was equipped with a bomb sight, a new bomb sight, the stabilising automatic bomb site, also known as SABS. This was a precision-built bomb sight and it was not, it was not used in any other – by any other squadron, mainly because it was difficult to build and very few were actually made. The invention and design of the Tallboy weapon by Barnes Wallis was the – a most important weapon that arrived at the right time in 1944. It was the only weapon that could have destroyed the targets against which it was used, conventional weapons at that time were blast weapons and would have had little or no effect on the structures that the Tallboy attacked and it was, it was essential of course to use it against targets which were buried underground and also, er, heavily armoured targets like battleships, the [targets ?] could never have been bombed by anything else other than a Tallboy so the Tallboy was really the crux of the whole bombing campaign from 1944 onwards to, to hasten the end of the war by destroying those targets which the Germans hoped to use to counter the invasion forces, it just was the [emphasis] weapon that was needed at the right time. The Tallboy was carried in the bomb bay and supported in there by a strap which had – the connection of the strap was electrically operated by the bomb sight at the critical moment. The top of the bomb had a hole drilled in it and in the roof of the bomb bay was a metal plug and the plug was – so when the bomb was hoisted into the bomb bay it married up with the plug and the strap was fitted underneath it and that secured it into the bomb bay. At a critical moment the bomb sight automatically triggered the release mechanism for the bomb, the strap separated and the bomb dropped out. The wireless operator’s job was to go back and wind in the two straps – two parts of the strap. The one thing about the Tallboy was that it was expensive to produce and they could not be produced very quickly so they were in limited supply and we were told that if you can’t drop the bomb, if you can’t see the target, don’t drop it, just don’t drop them all over France said Leonard Cheshire and we were instructed to bring them back which we did on several occasions when cloud obscured the target and – or smoke and if we couldn’t see it clearly then we would bring the Tallboy back and landing with a twelve thousand pounder was not funny and one had to be very careful – the pilot land very carefully which he did of course and there were never any accidents with them as there were never any accidents with the crews that brought back the twenty-two thousand pound Grand Slam when they couldn’t drop it so the aircraft was built to carry it and we never had any problem with it. Following the raid on Brest on the 5th August I completed – that completed my 50 missions constituting two tours of operations that I could retire from operating now and attend to further duties in training other crews in the training, training line. The squadron went on to other targets on U-Boat pens and military and, and naval targets throughout the rest of the war.
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Identifier
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ABellJR150727
Title
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Interview with John Richard Bell
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:21:47 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated T Holmes
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Date
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2015-07-27
Description
An account of the resource
John Bell completed 50 operations as a bomb aimer with 617 Squadron before becoming an instructor.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Mimoyecques
France--Saint-Omer (Pas-de-Calais)
France--Saumur
Germany--Peenemünde
France--Watten
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Contributor
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Gill Kavanagh
617 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of the Mimoyecques V-3 site (6 July 1944)
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
bombing of the Watten V-2 site (19 June 1944)
bombing of the Wizernes V-2 site (20, 22, 24 June 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Tallboy
V-1
V-2
V-3
V-weapon
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/211/3350/ABirchM150811.1.mp3
822228d299830315ec5ea07056aa17ac
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Title
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Birch, Marjorie
Marjorie Birch
M Birch
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marjorie Birch (b.1924).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Birch, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TJ: This is Tina James I am here in *** Waddington with retired GP Dr Marjorie Birch and she is going to tell us a bit about here experiences in wartime London. So Marjorie can you tell what year you were born.
MB: Yes I was born on the outskirts of London on, in the 29th of June 1924 so I am ninety one now so I can’t complain I haven’t had a good run.
TJ: So your father was he involved in the First World War?
MB: Yes he was in the Royal Flying Corps and a lot of my uncles were in the Army and one or two of them were injured but very lucky no one was killed so you know a fairly big family (interrupted)
TJ: Did they used to talk about their experiences?
MB: No.
TJ: Not even your Father.
MB: No not much at all no. I don’t know why we didn’t question them at the time, I mean looking back I ask why didn’t I question them, you know. No I think in the First World War a lot of them were you know, pretty well upset about everything they say and were not very keen to talk about it were they. No they didn’t, no.
TJ: So where did you grow up?
MB: Well we moved when I was quite small to a place called Bexley Heath which is in Kent and they built eh a lot of new houses. You know we had a spell in Lincoln where a lot of the villages you know building,a lot of building going on. It was a semi detached house with a garage sounds although it was small but the rooms were quite large and we had quite a big garden. Mind you the soil was awful, my Father had a lot of trouble to grow anything much at all. Em anyway we moved there in the thirties I think I would be about, oh I had a Sister who was em, eh how many, emmm, eighteen months younger than me, I have to think. We were pretty close but that’s all we were.
TJ: Just the two of you.
MB: Yes, and my Father was in the Civil Service and he worked in County Hall on Westminster Bridge. Its still there in various departments and ended up by being in charge of the whole of the Fire Force during the War. So when the Fire Fighters were having a terrible time, he was in charge. Anyway em, so we moved to Bexley Heath and we went to em, first of all eh Eirwith Grammar School which I don’t think I don’t know if it is still there,it is probably a Comprehensive now. Because our rent paying area, that was where you went to Grammar School and so em, but it was a mixed Grammar School and after a couple of years they decided to make it just boys only. We were transferred to Dartford Grammar School which was a girls Grammar School. The boys, there was a boys Grammar School incidentally [unreadable] just in passing, not at the time I was there. So then we were there after the war started and because we were in an area where they bombed, the bombers used to come up the, up the Thames to bomb London and we could see them and hear them. Em because they thought we were in a dangerous area we were offered evacuation and em so my Father said yes you can go but you must have a billet together, he wouldn’t have us separated. So I remember, it would have been in 1940, in the summer I think it was June, going to Waterloo Station and I have never seen anything like it, there was just children. The whole station was full of children, varying from little ones with their Mothers eh to, I was then eh sixteen, yes I was doing my [unreadable], The little ones had labels round their necks as you probably know, and trains coming in and filling up and going out. We didn’t know where we were going, we had two teachers with us.There would be about thirty of us to start with and a couple of teachers, we had to take something to eat and drink. Anyway we’d pack on the train and nobody knew where we were going, sounds absolutely amazing, but somewhere to the south. We ended up in Exeter which is a very nice town of course. When you go all day in the train, it was very slow, it took us all day, I think we left about seven O’clock in the morning. Everybody was absolutely fed up, you know, tired and hot, it was a hot day. So the next thing you, you know, we were met by a couple of people who were in charge of finding billets and they got the numbers that were coming, presumably. And we were herded onto the platform and we had to go round with these people and the teachers, going round Exeter dropping off children. You were more or less lined up and they came, and the people who said they would have evacuees came along and chose. Needless to say my Sister and I were the last because most of them expected young children, I think they were a bit taken aback because we were as old as we were. Anyway eh finally we ended up with a Welsh couple in their middle age I would say, who hadn’t any children. They were very nice eh and in Countess Weir which is outside Exeter a very pleasant place to live. Well as I say they were very nice, we, we have always been shown to do a bit of cooking and stuff so we helped out when we could. She had her own ways, they were Welsh and she was lovely really. Anyway em there was er there was going to be, it would be at the cricket ground in Exeter, the Ashes you know were going on at that time and there was a match being played in Exeter. So the husband said to us “do you like cricket?” I was very keen on cricket, we didn’t play it as school, but, you know I liked, I liked it because some friends always took me to the cricket when we lived in Bexley Heath. Anyway so off we go and we walked down the new bi pass to wherever the ground was and at that time there was a large convoy of Americans coming. I thought I don’t know about the dates but they were definitely Americans. And em they were non stop, there were lorries there were cars, jeeps, everything. And you know what they are like, they were all whistling and so what, I was sixteen. This upset the host of house because he weren’t used to having any children or anybody like that. So they approached the teacher and said we were much older that expected and he was embarrassed and so we had to be found another, another billet. This time it was with eh, eh a young woman who was married to a chap in the Army, he must have been very young, she had a two year old child so she was very nice as well, so we used to help her as much as possible. But the child I am afraid, well you can understand it because the husband had been posted missing and she didn’t know if he was dead or alive or whatever. And she slept in her mother’s bed and I say she was about two and half and her Mother was still breast feeding her plus an ordinary diet, in other words the child did as she liked. Well we had a nice bedroom during the day, we had our books and stuff in the bedroom, during the day she allow, she couldn’t lock the door. She was in our bedroom pulling all the books, some of text books were school books tearing out some of the pages, I mean. We would say “well look we will try and put everything out of her reach.” But it was absolutely hopeless, but were there, I think we were there a year or two, a year and a half perhaps, oh now we couldn’t have been because, no I meant months, we were there about three or four months and in the end it got so difficult that we said to the Teacher, we said to her you know “we would like to help you,” because she needed the money, “but we really, we can’t do this these books aren’t ours” Anyway what ever we did it didn’t work. So we were found another billet and this was a couple who lived in Countess Weir in an old monastery, it was absolutely fantastic, divided into two houses and it was right by the river and eh, the husband worked for the gas board and the wife was quite a bit older than him and her Sister and she owned a local paper, you know eh, I don’t know what it was called I can’t remember. Anyway she was a fantastic cook. So we were there for the rest of the time we were evacuated and eh and she eh taught me quite a lot of cooking things which was very nice. And eh, we came back in 1941 because we went down in 1940, came back in ’41. By which time my eh, we’d moved from Bexley Heath down to a small village outside Maidstone. Well it was a small holding, very nice, lots of fruit growing. We had ducks and geese and everything down there, it was really lovely. My Father obviously had to travel up to London everyday. Anyway we moved there so we had to go to Maidstone Grammar School, so I was going there for my higher schools as it was called, in other words A levels because of course I was em applying for University. So we had, so when I got my A levels I applied to all the Medical, I wanted to do Medicine at Top Woman. In those days there were three which were all Women and didn’t take any men. There were Guys, not Guys, Kings and UCH which took half a dozen, so I applied for them all.
MB: What did you parents think about you going into Medicine?
TJ: Well my Father, who was quite strict, he said “girls want to do Careers that are paid the same as men not less.” So he said “you’ve got a choice of Medicine, Dentistry, Accountancy and Law so you had better choose.” In those days it was strange, you know we used to accept things like that. Anyway I had always been quite interested in medicine and had my appendix out when I was thirteen at eh, eh oh dear, one of the London hospitals, it will come to me. I was very impressed and I liked, I liked this and I thought yes I like this, this is good. Eh and my Sister was absolutely bonkers about animals so she wanted to be a Vet. So we both had to take our A levels obviously to get into University. When I was talking about applying for Medical School I heard afterwards that UCH and Kings who were mostly men and half a dozen women. Oh with our application form, when we submitted our application form we had to send in a photograph. Apparently the Consultants looked at the photograph, chose the prettiest girls and that was that.[laugh] Anyway that was the story that went round and naturally I didn’t get in, but I got a place at Royal Free. In my days it was known as the Royal Free for freaks and frumps. I can tell you it wasn’t freaks and frumps in my year there were some goers I can tell you. I mean in London apart from all the other things there was a very ongoing social life, because they had all the Foreign Embassies with all the Troops around and we used to get invitations to all sorts of things, it was quite interesting. Anyway eh so there we were, I went up to the Royal Free, must get this right. I went up in nineteen forty, forty one, forty two, I went up in forty three. I went up in forty three that’s right and em, so em and when you went you had a list of University Properties in London where you could get digs, you know. So I got a room, you only got a room, I mean there was nothing specific like the modern Universities, it was a case of going in where you could get anywhere. Anyway I was in a house with three stories in a place called Argyle Square in a place opposite Kings Cross Station. Well one side of the Square was in the Square, one side was the local red light area, [laugh] they got several houses there. I remember looking out of the window one day, oh I was right on the top floor and I, and I am, the other girl [unreadable] was in the other room and we became great friends. We were friends all the time we were at University. Anyway I remember looking out of the window one day and I could see the prostitutes talking to the American soldiers. I mean you really saw life in the raw. Anyway that was just in passing so, we were in these digs, it was run by a very old New Zealand lady who apparently had been in the New Zealand Hockey Team and she had come over on a tour, this was before the war and eh, met her husband who was in the Navy and em,em he was killed and she was old so it must have been em just before the war and em, she was in charge of the rooms.She had a room right down on the bottom, there were two rooms on the top and three, then another three and another three and the old ladies room right at the bottom. For all these people we had one toilet, we had a bath which was actually in the conservatory at the back of the house, so from my window I could see in [laugh] you see. The whole setup was frightful really but we did have a bathroom em in the premises in, at the Medical School. Now I must explain, the Medical School attached to the Royal Free was called the London School of Medicine and it was in Hunter Street.That is where you had to do your second MB, which is the second lot of exams you took before you before you went into the, into the Hospital and into the Wards. Its quite different now we did Anatomy and Physiology, we had a really thorough grounding. And by what I, I have spoken to the Medical Students at the modern day, you know at the moment and frankly I am not impressed with their training at all, its entirely different. I don’t think they are getting the grounding we had. Anyway, so this took two years, you really had to get down to it, you didn’t have time to have a social life at all, it was really hard slog. Anyway we knew we were there to work, anyway this particular friend of mine lived at Orpington and she used to go home at the weekends, you know it was nice of here to get out of the digs really. I know every Saturday morning eh I used to go down to the local, they called it eh the British restaurant, they had these British restaurants in London where for a shilling, I think it was a shilling, you could have a jolly good lunch. You know rationing was so tight and we had to, you did get a lunch and at the Medical School and em, we had no facility, we just had a gas ring you know to heat up water, so know things were pretty primitive. Anyway I used to go down and get a good lunch at the British restaurant. Anyway one day I was sitting there and a piece of pudding came flying through the air and hit me in the face and there was this old boy saying “bloody rubbish, bloody rubbish,” he was saying because it was the pudding and the food was pretty awful. He was so upset with his pudding he just threw it across the room, unfortunately I was sitting in the wrong place. Anyway that happened.
Anyway you want to hear about the bombing. As soon as we got there the worst of the Blitz was more or less over because we were there in, what did I say, forty three we went didn’t we, yes. Well they had a Blitz, the Blitz was the year before really. But they were still bombing and everytime the siren went, wherever we were, if we were in our digs this old lady used to shout up the stairs “Come down” she was, she wanted us all to come down and go down in the cellar, there wasn’t anywhere else.We got so fed up every night going up and down, when it, the siren went, we just didn’t bother, ‘cause really. I mean we could hear the bombs dropping, we were very lucky, we didn’t actually all that near. But in the morning when we walked round to the Medical School, you could see houses that had been bombed. I mean this is, and the strange thing is people were going to work in their normal way with their cases and so on. After that nights bombing, stepping over the rubbish and just going to work as you would on any other day. People would say why? Well that was all they knew, they got their jobs and they just wanted life to be as normal as possible. And if you happened to have a hit and you were in the house, well hard luck. A lot of people used to go down to the Tube Station which was just down the road from our digs, I, I only went there once, well I didn’t, I went in the Tube early and all these people were lying on the platform rolled in blankets and so forth, it was absolutely crowd. I mean the underground trains were running as normal and all these people on the platforms, it was very difficult to get on the train without treading on someone. Anyway they went in every night and stayed in there, it was so stuffy, so smelly you can understand what I mean. Anyway that’s what used to happen, other people had their shelters, but in London you see there were only yards at the back of the houses. We didn’t have any eh kind of shelter at all. I mean in the suburbs and that they had their Anderson Shelter and their all, you know, but we just didn’t have anything like that. At the Medical School there was nothing there, if there was a raid on we just used to carry on, I mean it sounds ridiculous but we did and we were very lucky. Until, I am going to think if I, there was one little incident em, after one raid eh, some young girl was found in the street, you know, dead. They collected people after a bombing raid to see if people were there, needed attention, if they were dead. So they were taken to the mortuary and they were all free, those that were near and this young girl attracted the attention of the man in the mortuary who’s job it was to take the clothes of all you know eh the dead bodies. He thought, why has she got her knickers on inside out because girls don’t put their knickers on inside out. They were very careful when the PM came and they found that someone had been trying to abort her, you see, she was pregnant and they found that she was damaged. That is obviously why she had died, not from the bombing. Anyway the Police had been trying to find a professional abortionist who they knew had been working in the area. Because they had the address of where this young girl’s body was found,they actually caught this chap because obviously she had died when when he tried to abort her and put her, put her out on the street after the bombing raid. And they caught him, that was just a passing, you know.
TJ: That was very interesting.
MB: Yes these sort of things happened.
TJ: I bet he never thought that he would get caught, if her knickers had been on the right way out.
MB: They did PMs on, but after a bombing raid, the standards I don’t know or comment on that. They didn’t expect to have a gynaecological examination. That attracted a do, so little things like that. Anyway I was just trying to think if there was anymore em. But what I was saying, the ordinary bombs were dropping and what I was going to, I have forgotten to say when my Sister and I were in Exeter, my own house, before we moved to Bexley Heath had an incendiary bomb on it, and my Mother picked it up, well she tried to wrap it in a rug, it was in one of the bedrooms and throw it out the window. She burned her hands and arms really quite badly. That was a brave but rather a silly thing to do I suppose. But some of those incendiary bombs, I don’t know what dates it was, if you approached them, I mean they were burning, they would blow up. She was lucky it wasn’t one of those. Anyway that was in passing, you know well. Oh I forgot to say, I’m sorry about this, while we were er, in Exeter well er one night there was a tremendous bang and er, a landmine had dropped, they had tried to hit the barracks in Exeter. It had landed very near to where we were in digs, that was what, that was when they young[unreadable] what it was. So that was very unpleasant and also one night we saw this glow in the distance and that was the night that they bombed Plymouth. Plymouth had a terrible night and day when they were bombed. We did see the light from Plymouth and that’s I don’t know how many miles from Exeter but anyway we could see it. We knew something was going on, but that was in passing. So where have we got to.
TJ: You were doing your anatomy and physiology.
MB: That’s right, so there we were in the middle of a … can’t say it, anatomy and physiology, we were having a physiology lecture. We had a lecturer in physiology, nobody liked her she really was a rather unpleasant woman and she used to swear at us. I mean in those days it was terrible having someone swear at you. We were young ladies we weren’t used to, well you know what I mean. Then see everybody disliked her. Anyway in the middle of her lecture there was a God Almighty bang. A rocket had landed on a Presbyterian, I think it was Presbyterian church right next to the Medical School. Our anatomy department was demolished, we were very lucky there was only one student in there, of course she was killed, the rest of the College we were ok. Well the ceiling didn’t come down but the rest of the ceiling on us, well we were standing there and my first thought was, well my Father at County Hall probably had heard that it had got pretty near the Medical School, or on the Medical School because of the Anatomy part. So I thought I had better go, dash down to Kings Cross to get a taxi to let him know. In those days we didn’t have phones or anything like that, so I had better go and see him to tell I were alright. Anyway as I went up to the [pause] oh, well to get my coat, into the cloakroom there was this unpleasant Lecturer, quite a bit of plaster had come down on her head and she was bleeding quite profusely from the scalp. She said to me “oh Miss Hurst, Miss Hurst” oh I had forgotten to say eh, my pre marriage name, my name was Hurst, so when I married I became Birch. We haven’t got there yet, sorry. Anyway “oh help me help me” so I thought poor old girl. So ran the tap in basin and put her head down to clear all the blood to see what was going on, she got a lot of little cuts and abrasion but nothing serious, so I rather enjoyed putting her head under the tap and clearing it all of. Anyway then I found a towel somewhere and wrapped it in the towel. I said “I must go you must see, you know check if everything is all right” presumably she did. Anyway I did go down to Kings Cross and got a taxi. It sounds ridiculous, I mean life went on whatever and you know people can’t understand that, but it did. Anyway I get a taxi to County Hall and go into my em Fathers Office and his Secretary was sitting and she said “Oh my dear whatever is the matter?” I hadn’t looked in the mirror but I had got plaster in my hair, I had got a bigger, one or two, nothing much, I was absolutely filthy. [laugh] Oh I said we had a V2 on the Anatomy Department. “Oh my dear” she said, I said “I’d better see my Father” “Oh yes go in.” Do you know what my Father said “you are in a mess why did you come like that?” I thought so much for caring what had happened to his Daughter, obviously he hadn’t heard. Anyway his Secretary was lovely, she took me into the cloakroom and cleaned me up as well as she could do, So that was that, so anyway,so we, we lost our Anatomy Department so we couldn’t function anymore so we were sent down to Guys. Now Guys was male only you see, no women and what a fuss. We thoroughly enjoyed it and so did the male students but the Consultants were saying, one old boy I can’t remember if he was a Surgeon or what he was “we have never had women walking out ward bababababa.” We always thought it was a great joke. Anyway you never had, these ah, anyway this Lecturer who we all disliked, because we all came down to Guys. She stayed at Guys for the rest of her, and apparently she mellowed, everybody said she was a different women when she went down, stayed in Guys and did,lectured at Guys.
TJ: Perhaps it was the plaster falling on her head.
MB: Eh It was the male surroundings, that was what I heard in passing, so there we were at Guys and eh we were very, very lucky when you think about it. If they hadn’t stopped the Rockets London would have really suffered, I mean they were dreadful, there was no warning it was just this terrible bang. Oh I forgot to tell you I did an edited course in Anatomy because I hated it and I wasn’t doing very well. So in the first two years we had a holiday, we had a holiday in the summer, before we started Clinical because when you started Clinical you did three months of ENT, three months of skins, three months of every department of Medicine you did three months because that’s when you were learning about it. Anyway well, before I started that, where did I get to. I know, I was doing this extra course in Anatomy because I had not been doing very well in our Anatomy exams. So what I did, we were living in a, I used to catch the train from where we lived to London Bridge and then catch the bus to the Royal Free [possibly means Guys] in Gravesend Road. One day we were sitting there and we were coming into London Bridge, there were two other people in the Compartment on the other side. I looked out of the window and there was this Buzz Bomb you know the V1 travelling exactly parallel to the train. I knew as we approached London Bridge the track curved round. I thought my God that is going to cross straight over the line, you know as we come into London Bridge. And I never knew, I knew what people knew by paralysed with fright I couldn’t speak. I was trying to tell the people “look, look” and you couldn’t hear it because of the noise of the train, the trains, the trains made a lot of noise. It was about as far, I am not very good a measuring, as my fence.” can you see my fence?” about as close as that.
TJ: That’s about twenty feet.
MB: That’s where it was, it was very close and I thought “Oh my God” and I just sat there paralysed with fright and these two completely unaware. Suddenly if I had, had a camera, we didn’t have anything like that in the War. It turned on its side, went down, blew up a couple of houses. The train swayed really badly and I thought it was going to come off the rails, swayed from side to side because of the blast and stayed on the rails and carried on. And when I got to London Bridge I couldn’t get out. My knees were going clickty, clicky, I couldn’t tell the other people what they’d missed,they’d no idea, completely oblivious of all this drama. So when I got to Guys a friend said “God you look awful are you all right?” Well I said “Oh deary Oh me” If fait hadn’t have turned the damn thing there it could easily have done it on the line and blown us all to bits. Sorry about that I am a bit out of. So where have we got to, oh yes the V2 and going to Guys. Well it was ok down at Guys we had quite a good time and then eh. From there eh doing the Clinical it didn’t have enough things going on in the Hospital, we had Emergency Hospitals in those days. We had to go, my friend and I down to Letchworth, because we had to do three months ENT at an Emergency Hospital and three months skins and three months something else. So we went down there and we had digs in Letworth and em so we got away from the bombing. And eh that was ok and we were alright and we had nice digs with a local shopkeeper. So we were a alright and we always had plenty of butter and stuff like that and we were always short of food and we did alright. When we were there we eh, we used to get invites from the local RAF stations and eh we had an invitation, for the dances I mean. And I went to one dance, oh eh we went to one at the Emergency Hospital and the RAF Crew would come you see. Snobs we only sent invitations to the Officers Mess. Anyway em and that is how I met my Husband, he was one of the Aircrew, he was a Navigator in Bomber Command at that time and eh and that’s how I met him. And eh, so this would have been about nineteen forty five I would think. I must tell you, on D Day I happened to be in Kent at home for some reason and I saw the planes pulling all these gliders on their way to France. I have never seen such a sight in all my life and I thought to myself “these poor men, sitting there in those gliders, waiting for them to crash” They are supposed to land gently but you know what I mean, that is absolutely terrific. I mean how brave were they, I am not saying anybody else wasn’t but that was really [interrupted]
TJ: And there was a lot of them?
MB: There were a lot, the whole sky was absolutely full of them, so that, that was interesting, I, I never forget that, but I felt so, it really struck me then, I mean. Oh and the other thing, I forgot to tell you in the thirties, this is going back a bit. The Zeppelin the R101 was being built at I think it was Bovington or Cardington one of the places in, in Hertfordshire where they were experimenting with Zeppelins, this was in the thirties. This R101 was going over to France, so we had a, it came right over our house. What amazed me it travel it travelled really low, you could see the little, I think its called the basket and the people in it. And you know and it and you know it was going so slow and the old propeller was going like mad. I thought we if they are shooting at it, they couldn’t miss it. Anyway they weren’t , the War hadn’t started. Apparently that night, I don’t know how long after that it crashed in France and they were all killed. I don’t know how many people were in. I always remember that as a child, that would have been about nineteen thirty six, not quite sure. You know sorry I ought to put things in no I.
TJ: No it doesn’t matter, so lets go back to D Day did you get news on what was going on day to day?
MB: Well, it was very difficult ‘cause we were at, what forty four em, no I must have been at home so we didn’t. Well you got the news, the Radio news and they said they announced I can’t eh, I can’t tell you how it was, how it was put because obviously they have got recordings of what they em of what they were saying on the Radio. But they did tell you that em, didn’t give you any details I don’t suppose they knew very much at first.
TJ: But you did know there had been an Invasion.
MB: Yes, we knew it was on. I knew when I saw the gliders I knew you see. I think the Government were trying to keep it very secret when they were preparing all these thing. But I mean, I don’t know how many of these gliders landed successfully without them being killed. It was a sight as I say I shall never forget. Yes eh I am just trying to put things into chronicological order, it’s a bit difficult. Sorry where did we get to? Oh yes we were in digs in Letchworth and then we came back to the Free to continue our Clinical, because you had to do every part of Medicine and then you took your Finals and that was that. Then you took your house jobs and everything else. So came back to Guys and I was feeling really rotten, you couldn’t put your finger on it but anyway in the end they found I had a Pleural Effusion. Eh I hadn’t had a cough or anything like that. Anyway in those days anything in the lungs like that must be Tubercular because there was a lot of tuberculosis around at that time and after the War and eh, all my X rays were clear but no “you must take a year they did in these days, they’d take a specimen of the pleural effusion of you lung and inject it into a guinea pig because guinea pigs were very sensitive to the, to the tubical bug and I knew a lass in the path lab and she let, said to me “your guinea pigs very healthy” so I didn’t have TB but they wouldn’t accept they said “you must take a year off” so I went down and stayed in my Parents house at, near Maidstone for a year. So I lost all that, all the friends because you are together for about five years and you become like a club, you know. Everybody knows everybody else and its really nice because you feel part of a group, we stayed together. Well,of course when I had to take it out, I missed everybody especially my particular friend. ‘Cause they were a year ahead, so they qualified a year before me. I qualified in 1949 finally and, but I was married in 1946 which as a Student was very unusual in those days, because when my Husband came out of the, when he was demobbed we managed to get or find a flat in London in Balm. Well finding a flat in London after the war was like gold dust. Anyway we decided we would get married because we got a flat. In those days you didn’t live together, so we got married in a[laugh] in eh eh Wandsworth Registry Office. We queued up at quarter to nine in the morning and there were marriages going on twenty minutes each. Next one please, next one please, next one please[ laugh]. My Father had strongly disapproved of my Husband to be because he didn’t have enough money according to him. He didn’t come to the wedding my Mother came and my Aunt and Uncle from Orpington were wonderful, they really helped me because my Mother would have to come up by train because she was, were living near Maidstone then. Anyway she brought some of the things she managed to get from the country as far as food and everyone,well there was Bills particular friend my Husbands particular, my particular friend from Guys, my Aunt and Uncle, my Sister and my Mother. Oh no of course not I’d forgotten, my Husbands Parents she didn’t approve either so they weren’t going to come either. I was a sickly girl from the south because they lived in. Oh I must tell you this, when we were engaged, we were engaged in the year before, nineteen forty five my husband to be said eh “you must come up and meet my parents” they lived outside, in a village outside Halifax in Yorkshire. So I brought some photographs of my Family so they could see. So there was one of my Sister and myself, gave it to my Mother in Law to be and she said “is that your Sister” and I said “yes” “she’s very pretty isn’t she” I said “yes” then there was a long pause and she said “you are not a bit alike are you?” [laughs] So that was how we started a glorious friendship. Anyway because they were Yorkshire they were both overweight both eh his Father and Mother. But my Husband was tall, quite different, I mean there were some tall people apparently in his Fathers family but his parents were rather dumpy and overweight. Eh when they saw me they did not approve, I was a sickly girl from the south, I was rather slim, in fact I have always been a bit thin. So anyway that started and over the years, oh I won’t tell you about when we got married, you wouldn’t want to hear all that. ‘cause we went up and lived in Yorkshire. My Husband did some of his house jobs in Bradford Royal Infirmary and I did a Casualty job there and Philippa our first child was born. You don’t want to hear all that but eh I just remembered about my Mother in Law.
TJ: So was your Husband had he started his Medical Training before the War.
MB: No when he came out he said eh Aircrew could get grants for University ‘cause he didn’t really want to go back into the Civil Service he only done a year anyway. They offered him his old job which actually was in London but he said “no I am going to do Medicine” I said “are you sure?” because by then I was half, I was doing my Clinical by then. When we were married I was still doing my Clinical but we got this flat in London and he got eh what? I got a small grant from the Grammar School, they did have grants for going to University. So I got a small grant given the condition that my Father paid the same amount. I don’t think it was very much, anyway he agreed to it. So anyway that was how I got, how we got the money and then he said “I am going to apply for a grant, I tell you because I am going to do Medicine” I said “are you sure.” So he applied on the grounds of outstanding em oh eh outstanding bravery or something like that because he was given the DF eh DFC no DFM because when they were awarded they were still not eh em that hadn’t been given their Commission, that was it, when the appoint. But the Canadians, Australians and all the others who were in his Crew, they were all given Commissions straight away so they were all given the DFC. But because the English, there was Bill and the Rear Gunner who was English, because they were English they weren’t give their Commissions, till six months after, so they lost out on that, which is typical really isn’t it? Anyway er where did we get to?
TJ: He started to do Medicine.
MB: Yes so eh he applied for a grant, they said no he didn’t , he didn’t qualify. So my Father said to him because we were living with my Parents then em em, “well go and see your MP” So we went up to Halifax to see the MP there and he said I, “I’ll see what I can do, because you were decorated you are entitled to a grant” Anyway he did and he was given a grant, we were fine then. So we had a small grant, I think we paid eighteen shillings a week for our flat and we had an income of three pounds a week which we thought was really jolly good. So then he applied for Medical Schools and because he had been in the RAF he was accepted for all, for all the the you know London Hospitals. When he went for an interview to Guys there was a Surgeon there called Tony Bear who has written a book, very ancient now and he said to Bill “ do you play rugby boy” he said “yes I played rugby at school and I played rugby for the RAF” “right he said your in” [laughs] So I am not saying he got in at the others that was Guys because . he went to Barts, St Marys and all others and I tell you he was accepted for them all so he had a choice. He decided to go to Guys and eh he did play rugby all the time he was there. But I got fed up when Phillipa was born in nineteen fifty and eh I got fed up with him coming home every Saturday night in an Ambulance because he was always injuring himself. [laugh] I said “now you’ve got a family you have jolly well got to stop playing rugby, you know” He loved his rugby so that was it. Anyway he, he was in Bomber Command as a Navigator and he was offered a place in the Pathfinder Force as he always said “the em, the em Navigators in the Pathfinder Force were the crème de la crème” We were, I was offered this you know, offered this place in the Pathfinders so he took it. He was in Mosquitoes, he was in 109 Squadron which was one of the Pathfinder Force, eh Squadrons. Em and eh they had the very modern radar called Oboe which actually, what they did was lead the whole Bomber Group in, into the Target and drop flares at right on the Target. Because this Oboe absolutely pin pointed the absolute, say you were bombing a factory, and pin pointed that factory. The idea was to stop killing eh civilians if they could. So they would drop flares and the main Bomber Force would come behind them and drop the Bombs hopefully on the factory or whatever, whatever the Target was. So that was quite interesting and eh in the Mosquito they had a Pilot and a Navigator, not like the Lancaster which he was in which I think they had eight in the Crew. Anyway so eh I only saw the Mosquito once when they were celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Pathfinder Force and they, there was a little seat, two little seats and I said to my Husband, how did you fit in, because he is tall with long legs. He said, I had a small Pilot [laugh]. He was a New Zealander. Anyway so that the War, when he demobbed, he was still on Mosquitoes. Oh and he was on the raids that took part to, to Holland Manna it was called.
TJ: Operation Manna.
MB: That’s right he was on that quite a long time, well for the whole time it was going. That was his last presumably, Operational time. So that was, that was interesting yeah em yeah em I don’t, I do think of odd things I can tell you about, but its.
TJ: I am wondering what did your Sister do, did she become a vet?
MB: Oh well first of all she didn’t manage her A Levels, she was a practical girl. I mean she wasn’t so good on the academic so that disappointed her. So what she did, she got a place at em, eh, oh it’s a College off Nottingham University, Agricultural College, its got a name, anyway she got accepted for that and done a degree in Dairying instead. ’cause she hadn’t got the appropriate A levels to be a vet. She would have been a jolly good vet but there you are. She didn’t have the academic you know. Anyway that’s what she did and when she was at Nottingham University she met her Husband who got a degree in agriculture. And they went out to Tasmania eventually with their six children and I always remember when they emigrated. We were all in a hotel the night before they sailed, because in those days you went by ship. And someone said “I see you are going to Tasmania, are you going to populate it then?”[laugh] and actually she’s go she has Grand Children and Great Grandchildren out in Tasmania so you can say they put their share in populating Tasmania yeah. So that was right and she is still there and she rings me up and we are both staggering on She is only a year, eighteen months younger than me.
TJ: What is she now eighty nine.
MB: Yeah she had her ninetieth this Christmas and she wanted me to go out, she was having a jolly big party out there, so, I couldn’t face the flying there, its such a long way.
TJ: And what about your special friend from Guys, did you keep in touch with her?
MB: She married when she was on an anaesthetic course she met a Rhodesian who had been in the War and and married and she went out to Rhodesia. And then when all the trouble started they moved to South Africa. And then from South Africa they moved back here, so I, and they live near Malvern so Bill and I went to see them when they first moved in and they came to stay with us. So it was lovely to see, to see her again. And she is still living, her Husbands died and eh Bill died in nineteen, no in two thousand and two and her husband died about the same time. And we keep saying we are going to get together and we don’t, she said to meet her in London. I don’t think in my present state, I am gradually loosing my sight, that I would be able to manage London, not on my own, you know I would have to go with somebody. And eh so I don’t know wither I shall see her again or not, we keep in touch. And I was going to ring her up and verify some of the [unreadable] [laughs]
TJ: You did some, obviously you did your House Jobs.When did you decide to go into GP work?
MB: Well when were, when we were married we, we were in London first and then we moved to, Bill decided to go into Public Health instead of going into General Practice. In those days they had a Medical Officer of Health, well he, he got a job as a deputy in Watford and soon got another job in Lindsey. And he was going for interviews all the time we were living in London then. And em he came home one day and said “I’ve got job in” he’d been for interview because I lost count where he’d been. He’d been to Devon and Cornwall and various these things. I said “yes I’d quite like to live in [unreadable]. Anyway he said “I’ve got a job in Lindsey” I said “where the devil is Lindsey I’ve never heard of it” [laugh]. And he was a, Medical, Medical Officer of Health in Lindsey and then the Medical Officer at Kesteven was going, so he got and that’s what, that was his job and eh.
TJ: And that’s when you went into GP work?
MB: Oh yes, and then we moved up to Lincoln, that’s what I was thinking. We moved up to Lincoln, we moved up to Lincoln in nineteen sixty and we lived in Heighington for thirteen years and then we moved to Waddington, and then em what was I going to say. As soon as I came to Lincoln I had been casualtying for a while from eh just daily, not a, not a resident in the eh eh.
TJ: Lincoln County.
MB: Yes, Lincoln County, so eh I did that a couple of times a week that was all. Because the children were still, oh we had four children and, and we had, you know trying to do, to do everything was difficult. But I did do some General Practice and in the end I went into a Practise with three other men down at St Catherine’s and em, but I was only part time there. And em so em what, no I hope to get this right, yes and then em no I was working full time for about eleven years and then, then I argh when I left there after I worked for eleven years and I worked part time, doing surgeries basically for other practices. So I didn’t do a lot of General Practice because it was a bit difficult with four children. We got them going to school and going to University and all that, you know.
TJ: Did you ever, going back to the War years again, did you ever do any casualty work in London?
MB: No not in London no.
TJ: You didn’t have to deal with Bomb Victims?
MB: Not people who had been damaged in bombs, well you, it would be routine when you were on, wouldn’t it? You were on in the morning and you would get the aftermath of what had happened in the night. No I didn’t not in London.
TJ: It was a good job then really.
MB: Mm well I qualified in, what did I say forty.
TJ: Forty nine Mm.
MB: So em, and then we moved up here you see, no we moved to Hemel Hemstead first then we moved up here in nineteen sixty. So when you think I, I haven’t done a great deal of work really but em I say it wasn’t very easy with the four children. So anyway.
TJ: So you are going to be invited to the official opening of the Spire in October.
MB: Yeah that will be nice and Phillipa my daughter, the oldest one is coming with me so yes that will be very nice. But I mean we belong to the 109 Squadron Association and we used to go to Bedford. They had a weekend in Bedford every year where everybody used to get together. That was very nice but it is still around a bit it’s a, they don’t go, well I think they do go to Bedford. It is very difficult because everybody is gradually dying off you see. Em, I don’t go anymore but yes they were very nice weekends. Oh and the other thing we used to do was go to the Pathfinder Ball, they had it near Christmas every year in London. Be either the Dorchester or somewhere with the RAF Dance Band and we would have a weekend in the RAF Club and that was really enjoyable, we really liked that. You know because we used to enjoy ballroom dancing. Bill was a good ballroom dancer because he had had lessons, when he went to London in the Civil Service he went to Madam So and Sos Dance School to learn how to ballroom dance properly. He was a good dancer I just had to follow him really. So eh, no they were lovely weekends those Pathfinder Balls and em as I say you had everything, the RAF Band. And eh we used to know a lot of eh the Squadron people in the Association. I’ve lost touch now, they still send me the little magazine they have, because they, they have a meeting at the ex, oh he has died now. The CO of the Squadron in his home, you know in eh, its Hertfordshire or somewhere like that, I don’t know, I’ve never been. They try and get together you know, some of them.
TJ: Well thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us.
MB: Well I don’t think it was that interesting really.
TJ It is was fascinating.
MB: Do you think?
TJ: Yes absolutely fascinating. I’ll just add, I don’t think I put it at the beginning it’s the 11th of August 2015. Well thank you Marjorie very much.
Dublin Core
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ABirchM150811
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Interview with Dr Marjorie Birch
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:07:26 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated T Holmes
Creator
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Tina James
Date
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2015-08-11
Description
An account of the resource
Dr Marjorie Birch was born and grew up in London. She was evacuated with her younger sister when war was declared. She later trained as a medical student in London. She describes her accommodation opposite Kings Cross Station and the bombing. She married a navigator with the Pathfinders in 1946, before moving to Lincolnshire.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Kent
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
Coverage
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Civilian
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
109 Squadron
bombing
evacuation
fear
home front
incendiary device
love and romance
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oboe
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
shelter
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/218/3358/PBruhnKC1601.2.jpg
b0c77fbb6618767952dab43db30881d6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/218/3358/ABruhnCK160430.2.mp3
321d7a40559b9dbb0b3d5005882da99b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bruhn, Clarence Keith
Clarence Keith Bruhn
Clarence K Bruhn
Clarence Bruhn
Keith Bruhn
C K Bruhn
C Bruhn
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Clarence Keith Bruhn (437927 Royal Australian Air Force) documents, photographs and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 463 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Keith Bruhn and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bruhn, CK
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Keith Bruhn who was a 463 Squadron navigator during the Second World War. It’s the 30th of April 2016. My name’s Adam Purcell. We’re in Novar Gardens in the suburbs of Adelaide. That’s, that’s the spiel. Let’s begin. Can you tell me something Keith of your early life? What you were doing growing up and how you came to join the air force?
CKB: Well, I attended Unley High School and quite a few, the other, you know in older classes had been joining the air force. So when the, when I turned eighteen, I left high school at seventeen and studied accountancy for the interim before joining up and then having turned eighteen they sent you a letter that you had to report to so and so and so. So I thought — oh I will. There was quite a few of the blokes I knew were joining the air force so I decided that rather than join the army they were supposed to travel on their stomachs weren’t they? The army or something. And the navy had a girlfriend in every port and I didn’t think I could handle that [laughs]. Anyway, and also a few of the people in our area we lived at Hawthorn and you’re a Melbournite are you?
AP: I am.
CKB: Yeah. So you wouldn’t know our Hawthorn. You’d know your Hawthorn. Anyway, I decided to join the air force. I think I was about seventeen and a half then. I applied and we did, went along to the [pause] you know went along at night school to study a bit in preparation. And then the call up came and we, I was picked to go to Somers. You know Somers? Down there on the Mornington Peninsula is it?. Yeah. That’s where we did our ITS. From then we, well at the selection committee I sort of thought everyone wanted to be a pilot so I thought if you were refused that you sort of automatically became a air gunner or, or a wireless operator perhaps. And I was pretty good at maths so I decided I think I’d like to be a navigator. So I mentioned that to the selection committee and I was made a navigator. So that worked out all right. [laughs] From ITS at Somers we went down to the Air Observer’s School at Mount Gambier. That would have been probably three or four months. You don’t really want to know what happened at some of these? It might take —
AP: Oh definitely — tell me everything. Tell me the whole story.
CKB: Anyway. Oh nothing much. Yeah. Well, well actually I can remember one thing at Mount Gambier. The staff pilots at a lot of these places were a bit [pause] what did they used to call it? Well, they were daredevils anyway. Some of them. Anyway, we were on a navigation trip somewhere up to Northern Victoria there where we had a do, write down what we saw, you know. And coming home this pilot decided he’d give, there were three or four navigators. There was an Avro Anson and he decided to give us all a bit of a thrill. So we came back via the Glenelg River and he came down to below tree top height. I can still remember there were ducks flying all over the place and I thought [laughs] and anyway that was — I can still remember that because I think that would have been our probably first or second flight in a — and we thought ooohh you know.
AP: First or second flight ever you mean?
CKB: Well, yes in the air force anyway. I had been. That’s another story I won’t —
AP: That’s alright.
CKB: We won’t go into —
AP: I’ll ask about that later.
CKB: I had flown before and yeah it would have been probably — I can’t exactly remember. First, second or third flight. So that was a story at Mount Gambier. From there we went to — there was a Bombing and Gunnery School at Port Pirie and that’s where we got our wings. That was [pause] oh end of ’43. Yeah. 1943. From there we ended up, we went over to Melbourne and we were stationed on the MCG. Now, I’m going to brag here. That was sort of a holding place where you moved on from and the curator there decided he’d prepare a pitch for us and we got a bit of sort of scratch team together. I think we, everyone bowled one over and batted one over. And I thought well the cricket pitch was a crossways on the MCG. As you probably know. And that’s the shortest boundary. And I thought I reckon I can hit a six on this. So first ball I had a swing and missed, I think. And I think it was the second ball I managed to collect. It just cleared the fence. So I can brag and say I hit a six on the MCG.
AP: Excellent.
CKB: Anyway, the next ball I had another swing and got clean bowled I think. So that was a bit of fun there.
AP: Where at the MCG did you actually stay?
CKB: Yes.
AP: [unclear]
CKB: That was a staging camp before you moved on. You know.
AP: So while you were, while you were at this staging camp where did you sleep? Like where was your accommodation?
CKB: [laughs] Under the grandstand. Yeah. They had you know a big open area as you went up through the, yeah, and they just had stretchers there and I don’t know how many. It would have been a hundred. A hundred, I suppose, of us. And the, and the bars we all had. Where the bars were set up that was our mess and I think we were there probably a fortnight. And then we had entrained we had no, oh the funny part about it was we were issued with tropical gear. Uniforms. As well as a normal winter uniform. And then we were entrained and headed north. So we thought oh we were issued with tropical uniforms so we thought we were going up somewhere up New Guinea or somewhere. Or the islands or somewhere. So we ended up in Sydney and once again went to the staging area camp. At Bradfield Park I think it was. For probably a week again and hopped on a train up, further up north and ended up in Brisbane at Indooroopilly I think it was. There was a camp. A tented camp there. Stayed there a week and still wondering. We didn’t know any idea where we were going. No one told you anything. So there, we were there for probably a week and the next minute we were told that we’d get all our gear together. We were heading for a boat. So we ended up down, I can’t remember whether it was a victory ship or a [pause] what was the other ships they made? Anyway it was a Yankee. American boat. And there were a lot of Americans, injured Americans were going back to the US. So about a hundred of us logged on there with about a few hundred American servicemen who had been injured. And a story — we took off. The story about that. There was one bloke. An American. I remember this. He couldn’t go down to the mess. He had, he was missing both legs and one arm. So the whole journey they set him up on the deck and he sat there the whole journey. They brought food to him and he played [pause] what are they? Craps I think they call it. And he just sat there with the dice and that’s what he did the whole journey. The poor beggar. And I can still remember that. Anyway, so we ended up, we still didn’t know, well we sort of knew, because each day they had a map on the side of the boat and we could guess how many miles, daily miles they did. They showed us where we were going so that would have taken, I don’t know, probably about a week or a fortnight. So we ended up in San Francisco. And then over there we went to another staging camp where all the Americans went before they were choofed off to the Pacific. Angel Island I think it was called. In the San Francisco Bay. And an interesting thing there, Angel Island was there and as we caught the ferry in to San Francisco we passed Alcatraz. That was a bit of an interesting point. So we were there about a week and then entrained. Headed off [pause] well we knew we were going eastwards. You can’t go westwards. Yeah. Well, that was Pullman carriages. This was all knew to us, you know. The negroes were, they’d pull our beds down at night and I mean these sort of things didn’t happen in Australia. That was all new to eighteen year olds, you know. And that was quite enjoyable I suppose because these negroes attendants were happy blokes. They were very, you know, laughing all the time and carry on. So eventually we went, well on the way I woke up one morning and looked out the window of the train and, ‘You are now passing,’ — it was all snow outside, ‘You are now passing the highest railway point in America.’ I think it was fourteen thousand feet. I think it was. Over the Rockies. That was just a thing you notice. And we ended up in Chicago, in these cattle yards because there were trains going all over America during the war and you had to stop sometimes. We’d stop overnight, and it we could hardly sleep because the cattle bellowed all night. You could hear this bellowing of cattle right in the middle of the stockyards. So then we eventually ended up in New York. Crossed the river to another staging camp I suppose it was. And we stayed there another week and had a few days in New York. We were looked after. I think they were Jewish people. We stayed a few nights and had breakfast. And that was the first time I’d ever heard of, ‘How would you like your eggs? Sunny side up?’ [laughs] That’s the first time, the first time I’d ever heard that expression. So we were there a couple of nights and then went back to the camp a few more nights and then back again. And we were, I can remember looking across the other side of the river where the liners were and there were big boats everywhere. We still didn’t know what boat we were going on. Anyway, it turned out to be the Queen Elizabeth so — I don’t know whether you know the story. When that was built it was never fixed out as a liner. The war came so they made it, turned it into a troop ship virtually. So there were about a hundred of us and seventeen thousand Americans got on board. And, you know on the trip over to England we never saw one American. We saw where they slept. You know, like the decks. And on the side of the decks — one, two, three, I think there were about four layers of stretchers and I don’t know how many decks would have been on there. There would have been six or seven and you know, there was about two hundred yards. So they were up and gone and they had their stations to go to during the day. By the time we, we were camped in, I don’t know there were rooms. What they would have been I don’t know, and there were about a dozen of us in each of these. In sort of decks too. And the meal times were twenty four hour meal times. You had your time to go down to the meal. It was just twenty four hours of serving meals to serve everyone. So eventually we ended up in [pause] Gourock. That’s the Glasgow port and got off the boat there and a bit of a story there. We all lined up on the railway station and there were Scottish — I think they were church, some church ladies. Guild or whatever they were called were serving morning tea or whatever it was. They were asking us what we’d like, and we couldn’t understand a word they were saying in their broad [laughs] Scotch accent. Like, you know, ‘Do you want milk in your tea?’ Or things like that. It took a while. Mind you going back, going through or go back to San Francisco it was almost the same story. Their accents were, I can remember we went into a restaurant, had a meal and there were three or four of us and this gum chewing waitress came along. ‘Where are you all from?’ And we said, ‘Australia.’ She stood there. It was ticking over. ‘Oh where’s that state?’ As much as to say, you know what, in America, what? That’s just a side thing. Yeah. Well I’m back to Glasgow and the next minute we’re down at Brighton. Well, originally, before us they used to go to Bournemouth but that got a bit dangerous apparently. They were bombing that before we got there. So we went to Brighton for about a week or two. Then we, by this time we got over there the attrition rate had dropped fairly well and there was a bit of a backlog of, you know, so they chooked us off to an aerodrome just outside Guildford. A grass aerodrome for the pilots and navigators to get used to the countryside. We flew Tiger Moths. Map reading and all this sort of thing in Tiger Moths. And I even learned, being a navigator, to fly a Tiger Moth because there were English pilots learning to be instructors they, so I got to take off and land, but I didn’t do solo or anything like that. That was a bit of fun. We used to take off, you know a couple of hour journeys every now and then and that was for another week or two I guess that was. Now, where did we go next? Oh we went up to Navigation School up in Scotland. Can’t think what that was called. Anyway, up on the west side of, west coast of Scotland and when we went on leave we could catch a bus up the west coast up, and we used to do a pub crawl. We’d drop off at every town, have a couple of drinks and then catch the next bus up to the next [laughs] and there were about six towns, so I think we had a pint or two in each. Not that that was much because English beer wasn’t like our beer, so. I mean they’re the sort of things, I mean, oh I’ll get back to the fun side of it before we got in to the nitty gritty. You know, you, well you had to have a lot of fun. At this stage we didn’t know what was ahead of us anyway. So that’s what we used to do up there. And then we went to the Operational Training Unit at Lichfield. That’s right. Yeah. We were getting nearer and nearer now to operations on Wellington bombers. And while we’re there we did quite a few, dropping Window raids, to get us used to, you know the Window. Yeah. We’d go out over the English Channel and into France a bit and drop these before the other bombers. To confuse the enemy I suppose. We did quite a few of those and then later on we did a few in Wellingtons. A few decoy raids further into France to get us all used to it. And finally we did our OTU and finished that. Then we were posted to a Conversion Unit for pilots. A lot of the pilots had only been flying twin engines, so they had to convert to four engines. So we converted there to Lancasters then, and I don’t know how long we were there. Probably a month but that was mostly for the pilots anyway and the navigators didn’t do much really there. So eventually from there we got posted to Waddington. This is early February ’45 so we were getting, you know, within three months to the end of the war virtually. That’s how long. It took us almost a year by the time we arrived in England to get to a squadron. So we were there a while before. Then we did our first op. And then the last op which was the third to last op that the squadron did on April, oh it must have been April the 16th I think it was — we were shot down over Stuttgart I think it was. Anyway, I’ve got the report of that raid here. That’s the [pause] that’s our report. That great big report there. I’ve looked through all the reports and we got the biggest mention. I don’t know whether that means anything. But we — this was after D Day so the emergency ‘drome that night was Juvincourt. That was just north east of Paris a bit. Or near Reims. So we headed for there and we had trouble maintaining height so we dropped all the bombs. Everything we could drop. We still couldn’t actually — we were shot at twice and the first time we were shot at as far as the powers can be can — would all what we said and what clues they had they worked out that an aircraft from Skellingthorpe was the ones that had shot at us. So we were virtually, well they suggested that we were probably shot at from friendly fire and that put an engine out. But about another quarter of an hour later we were shot at with one of those upward firing ME210s, I think they were. Anyway, that was a quarter of an hour later. That put another engine out. We were down to two engines at this stage. So we were on, we were going to bomb a roller bearing works at Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. So we only really got to Stuttgart. And that’s where we were shot at. So the pilot was down to two engines and he couldn’t maintain height so he decided we’d turn around and head for Juvincourt. So all the navigation aids were gone so all we were back to was the P6. The pilot’s P6 compass. That was the only aids we had as far as [unclear] I thought I’d look approximately where we were, and I thought I’d get the directions to Juvincourt and I looked at my star maps and I found a star that was approximately on the course we were supposed to take. So I said to the pilot, ‘Well head for that star and get your course on the compass.’ And I had my fingers crossed. Anyway, blow me down, about, oh I don’t know how long it took us but we eventually got to Juvincourt. They said they could see. This was about 6 o’clock in the morning I think. ‘We can see the lights. The lights of the runway.’ So I thought thank goodness for that because there was no way we would have made even the English Channel. We were losing height all the time. Anyway, we were down to about seventeen hundred feet at this time and the pilot, he had his left rudder roped up because he couldn’t, something had broken, you know. Had broken. But he had to do a right hand turn in order to land, I think it was and he found he couldn’t do it. And according to, I’ve just read it before but I’ve forgotten a lot of it. I can’t remember which— the right wing, or [pause] was still on fire. And near where one of the tanks and the pilot, there was flames, and he said, ‘She’s going to go up any minute. The whole thing.’ So we all, he told us to get out smartly. So we all managed to jump out. I’m the last one out. I looked at the pilot. I said, ‘Are you ok?’ He said, ‘Yeah, I’m ok.’ So I went. And he got out and busted his leg a bit. Eventually we all, we all ended up headed for the [pause] most of us landed within oh, I don’t know, 5ks of the Juvincourt I think. And I remember coming down. We were, I looked down, I could see, oh before this we were supposed to count to three before we pulled our rip cord. I counted to one and a half I think and pulled mine and anyway my chute opened and I was floating down. I looked down and there was a canal and I thought this will be good I’m going to land right in the middle of the canal. And we were told that if we want to move we pull on something. I’ve forgotten what you do but I pulled the rip cord somehow and managed to miss the canal by about fifty yards anyway. But in the meantime I’m doing this there was a bit of ground mist and you couldn’t really see the ground and I’m sort of doing this. And the next minute whoop we’d hit the I’d hit the ground [laughs] and being no wind that’s the worst, that’s the worst landing you can make. If there’s a breeze you can almost run with the [laughs] anyway I remember my kneecaps went past my ears I think. So we got down and eventually everyone dribbled, dribbled in. The pilot — he’d done his leg in. The flight engineer — he was a nervous wreck I think. They had to sedate him. He ended up in hospital. I can remember going to see him. They’d sedated him because he was a shaking mess. It affected him a fair bit apparently. Oh, what happened we were about five Ks from the aerodrome and this was 6 o’clock in the morning and they were all warming up to go and do their strafing or whatever they did and I headed for the noise and I’m walking along. Out of the corner of my eye I see a negro standing there. About six foot six tall with a carbine in his hand. He was on guard duty you know. There was an American transport company on the outskirts of the aerodrome. And I thought I’d better go over to him otherwise I might get a [unclear]. So I went over and introduced myself, ‘I’ve just been shot down. I’m an Australian.’ And he looked at me. I think he thought now is it Austrian or what? Anyway, I said, ‘Oh will you take me to someone in charge?’ Yeah. So we walked along and I noticed he kept walking a bit behind me. He wasn’t quite sure who I was, and he had this carbine sort of [pause] Anyway, he eventually got back to the camp, where they were all camped and he took me to the officers where they were having breakfast and here they were. You know they hadn’t that long gone, probably a few months they’d taken over the airfield and here were all these Americans sitting down to bacon and eggs. You have it. Where probably the English were having bully beef or something. And he said, ‘Oh you’d like some breakfast.’ And I said, ‘No.’ I was a bit churned up myself, you know with all this going on, and I said, ‘No, I’m not —' And eventually they took us to this aerodrome. There was an RAF representative there. Like I said all the crew eventually dribbled in from wherever they’d landed. I think one of— the mid upper gunner had landed in a tree I think, so he’d had a bit of fun. But most of us were not too badly hurt. So we were there a couple of days and there was a flight sergeant in charge of whatever — for the RAF there and he took us, drove us to where the aircraft had crashed. And apparently it had come down reasonably level like this, right across a Frenchman’s potato patch. And apparently, according to this flight sergeant he wasn’t very happy. There was a great swathe of, you know, he’d only, he’d probably only just planted it all. No it was up. What I remember they were up about that high. But there were bits and pieces lying everywhere. Bits of my maps lying everywhere. And there was no sign of any engines or anything. They’d apparently dug in to the ground because it was fairly soft, the ground I think. So that was alright. So the next the next thing this bloke took us on a Cook’s Tour around the area and there was a village, I forget the name of it and he was, he had a girlfriend whose father owned one of the — what do they call these drinking places. Bars. The French call their bars. I don’t know. I forget. Anyway, he took us there. The French owner was very happy to see us and he went down the stairs and came up with a clay pot of Cognac. Cognac. And he said, ‘Oh we kept this down here especially, you know for when the war was over,’ sort of thing. I thought, I remember afterwards saying to myself I bet the Germans had a bit of that too. Who knows? You don’t know. But I think but this flight sergeant was on with the daughter. Oh and another thing that happened. Parachutes. I hope the powers that be aren’t listening. I’ll be up for a charge or something. He went around to collect all the parachutes and we were supposed to bring them [pause] well supposed to bring them back. Anyway, we eventually found ours and this flight sergeant, he was on a good thing. He knew all the [lerks?] he was, he said, ‘Leave it with me. I can —,’ You don’t have to, you know, I forget the words he said but he ended up with it but what he was doing was making money out of. They were making shirts or whatever out of these. So I had to claim that I couldn’t find my parachute. Which some of the others did too and they couldn’t find their parachutes so that was all right. But he was on this, he was on a good thing this bloke. And another thing he took us down to, we were about twenty k’s from Reims which was Eisenhower’s headquarters. General Eisenhower’s headquarters. So we went for a trip down there. And that that’s where I first came into contact with their, what we call them [unclear] They were just toilets, you know, in a park. All they were, were for men, all they were sort of a grill sort of thing. You could see their feet underneath and a bit of a trough and [laughs] in the middle. We’d never struck anything like that before. So eventually we ended back at the aerodrome and I think it was about three days later they came and came and got us from a squadron in a Lancaster. Took us back home. And by the time we’d reported all the accident and all the, whatever went on we went on leave for about ten days I think it was. By this time the war was nearly over so we didn’t do any more trips. The war finished. And all those who’d done their tours, probably they were alright. All those who hadn’t finished a tour — we went on to Tiger Force. Changed from 463 to 467 Squadron. So we were there. We shifted to Metheringham which was only about ten k’s from Waddington. One thing about that — I had a photo. I don’t know what happened to it. When we shifted all the ground staff had bicycles that they used to drive around and there were about twenty of them. So when we shifted they put all their bikes in the bomb bay. And I had a photo of the bomb bay full of bicycles. And it was only a five minute trip virtually. By the time you’d taken off you were there. So we shifted our Tiger Force training there for — by that we were on so called embarkation leave in August. In August. I think they knew the war was going to end. We went down to Newquay in, in Devon I think it is. Newquay. The Australians, it was good surf down there. All the Australians used to go down there to surf. So we ended up down there and the war with Japan finished so we did the town over that night. I can remember one chap had a motor vehicle and we were, there was about a dozen of us hanging from a motor vehicle screaming up and down the main street of Newquay. And the locals must have thought we were all nuts because their war had been over for six months and they thought what’s going on here? I can still remember that. But we were due to transfer — what they called them — long range Lancasters. That was the pre-runner of the, I forget the name. Lincoln bomber. That’ right. Yeah. And we were due to fly them out to Okinawa. Or not Okinawa. There was an island fifty miles, fifty k’s east of Okinawa that the RAF were going to operate from and the Americans were going to operate from Okinawa. That was the story anyway. I think that’s right. But thankfully that never happen. I wasn’t looking forward to bombing Japan. I think it would have been a different story to bombing Germany if you’d baled out. I don’t think that would have been much fun. So that’s probably my story in the air force I suppose. Eventually we went back down to Brighton waiting for the boats. Which boat to. This was about October ’45. I can remember there was one bloke. He liked to do seances. He liked to get us all together to work out what boat we were going to go home on. So we had the seance. There were only about four boats I think, operating, and he knew the names of them all. So here we were with this and he’d been putting our hands towards whichever side [laughs] if you believe in seance. But he was dinkum about them. He sort of — but no. We had a quite I think we were there for about a month waiting for a boat and we used to go up and play a few golf links up east of Brighton. We used to go up there and play golf. That was good fun for about a month. And eventually we got on the Athlone Castle which was a South African boat, headed off through the Mediterranean. Through the Suez. Ended up in Bombay where we picked up [pause] there was quite a few, you know servicemen coming in from Burma and all around. One of them was Vic Richardson. Do you know Vic Richardson? Vic Richardson the cricketer.
AP: Yeah.
CKB: The Chappell brothers’ uncle.
AP: Oh.
CKB: [laughs] Yeah. He was one of them. We knew Vic very well reasonably well. We lived near him at Hawthorn. He was one bloke who came on board. An interesting thing in Bombay those days all the beggars from I don’t know how far around in India knew that all these boats were coming in with servicemen. And they’d apparently come into Bombay, and anyway we had a day to go and look around Bombay. But we had to walk of course, and it was about a two kilometre walk I suppose, and I reckon it took us two or three hours to walk through this wall to wall beggars that were lining the road with their hands out like this. But eventually we got back to I suppose was the main part of Bombay. But we had an hour or two there and then we decided we’d go back a different way. So we took some back streets and I can remember the bloke’s everywhere you went there were these little droppings everywhere apparently. All over the — there was a park area and apparently, they just used to go over to the park area. Do their business. In various stages of the dryness, some were quite dry [laughs] and that was another shock that you know, you don’t see that every day of the year. So that was an interesting little episode there. Eventually we got back to Perth. This was about December the [pause] about four days before Christmas I think we arrived in Perth. And a few of the, got rid of a few of the chaps, were offloaded in Perth. We had Christmas Day in the great Australian Bight heading for Melbourne. We didn’t call in to Adelaide. There weren’t enough getting off I don’t think. Called in to Melbourne and we were home. Then I had to catch the Melbourne Express back here. So virtually when you think about I had an around the world trip. Went, went that way and came home that way. So, you know, you think about it we were eighteen year olds who probably hadn’t been out of the state or, you know. It was all, sort of, you know, something to do. It was an experience. And I mean it had its moments but I often think three years in the air force I reckon I aged ten years. You know. With that experience. So in the end went on leave when we got back. Eventually we were called in to find out what was going to happen. Wanted to keep in the air force. ‘Do you want to stay in the air force?’ ‘No. No I don’t want to stay in the air force,’ [laughs] and then we were demobbed so, and that was the end. Oh going back to when the war ended over in England it’s a funny feeling that there was a mixture of [pause] a mixture of relief and disappointment if you know what I mean. You’re doing something and all of a sudden you’re not doing it. And I can remember, I suppose all the others were the same but at least we had, we continued on in the Tiger Force so it wasn’t so bad. But I can remember even when we got in to the Tiger Force I thought do we have to be doing this. Everything was dropped. But it was an interesting time doing Tiger Force because it was very relaxed and most of the time we played cricket or, or football. I can remember we’d got one football match arranged but they didn’t get enough for AFL type football so there were probably a third of them were rugby players. I can still remember going for the ball and the next minute whoosh [laughs] these blokes came at you and you’re flat on the ground [laughs]. That was, that was, I mean you can imagine a game of football. A mixture of rugby and Australian rules. Crazy. Oh dear. Yeah. And then we played quite a few cricket matches. What’s the name of the RAF station? Their headquarters virtually. Down there. I forget the name of it now. Two or three times we went down there and played matches. But in between we went on training. Mostly the training was, all they did was, navigation wise because we were going to go overseas. Mostly away from where we were to be stationed. We took off from Metheringham. Went straight out the Bay of Biscay for approximately the same time it would have taken us from the island to Japan. About four hours I think it was. Only using dead reckoning navigation and you had to fly back doing the same thing and hope that you were near where your base was because that’s what it was going to be like where we were going. So that’s all our training consisted of virtually and [pause] but that’s about it I think.
AP: Alright. We might go and fill in a few gaps.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: If you’re alright with that.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: Going back to the beginning where were you when you first heard the war had been declared and what did you think at that time?
CKB: 1939, I was in [pause] ’37 — third year at high school, Unley High School. Yeah. I can remember it. When was that? September wasn’t it? Was it September?
AP: Yes, September the 3rd
CKB: Yeah. I can remember it. I can even remember sort of discussing, you know, discussing it with your fellow pupils, but I don’t know. I think it’s sort of we might have said, ‘Oh well,’ and the funny thing about that was, leading up to the war, just going back with my name. I can remember the history teacher. I got praise for being a very good speller. And he said, ‘Oh you’ll, where did your parents come from?’ And I’m sitting there and war’s imminent. My mother I think came from East Prussia somewhere. My father’s, no, not he. They didn’t come but their parents came. And my father’s parents came from somewhere in North Berlin. Mecklenburg. There I am sitting in this class where [pause] but, you know there were a lot of people of German, German names in the war. When you think of it half the Americans were of German descent. So I mean I could have been, we could have been bombing some of my people I’m related to or something way back or something. But I mean that’s war. I mean I had no compunction in joining up. You’re living here. I was Australian. My parents were Australian. So I mean you’re that. Yeah as far, as far as that goes, at school, I can’t remember. We just talked about it I suppose. But I can’t ever remember like the teachers saying much about it. You just went on with school. That was ’39. ’40. I was leaving. ’41 leaving honours. Yeah. Life just seemed to go on when we were kids. But I knew then, you know, as I said the ones ahead of us like David Lester was two years. He went to Unley High too. He was two years ahead of me. We knew he’d joined up and there were a few others that were already joined up in the air force. Yes. One of those things.
AP: Can you remember much about the actual process of enlisting?
CKB: Sorry?
AP: Can you remember much about the actual process of enlisting? So where you had to go to do the interviews or to sign up. Or the actual process.
CKB: Oh well that’s a bit of a story. When I, you had a form to fill out when I enlisted, and I listed — I knew my mother had diabetes. Somehow I’d written down that both parents had had diabetes and when I went for my medical without even — they just, because both parents I’d put down. They didn’t even carry on with the interview. And then I thought [pause] no. No. No that’s not right. I think they, I think I did take a urine sample. Gave them a urine sample. But they didn’t even bother with it, they just, because I’d put down both parents and I was rejected. Course I was a bit disappointed so I complained about it. They said, but they said both your parents. ‘No,’ I said, ‘No.’ There was only my mother. I had to talk a bit, fairly well out of that. I eventually talked them into having a urine sample and that was clear. So I was alright. So I nearly didn’t make it because of that. But like I said I was only about seventeen and a half then I think. And then a couple of nights a weeks we had to go to the teacher’s college to these lectures and the funny thing about it one of the lecturers was our physics teacher at Unley High. So we just carried on, you know. Virtually they were just talking about what flying was about and the navigation side of it and I mean it wasn’t — but there were a lot of, probably lads who weren’t as educated as I was perhaps or had probably had only done kind of intermediate grade or something like that. So I suppose they just had to, probably needed more [pause] you know a little bit more training but that was for about six months. I can remember we used to go in, I used to go in with — I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of Bonds tours. No. You wouldn’t. He was on the air board actually Bert Bond. And they lived just up the road from us and Max Bond who joined up with me he, he his father was Bert Bond who owned this, and he was on the Air Board and he — I’m getting back to my first flight now. While we were waiting to be called up there was, on South Road there was what they called Castle Plaza Shopping Centre. It was named after, there was a castle, a castle like residence there and a bit up the road was a box thorn covered paddock and Bert had carved out a bit of an airstrip there and he had a Fairchild. He’d imported a Fairchild plane out. And so when we used to, every weekend when the first trip, Max said, ‘Oh come on, we’ll, my father’s going to go up for a bit. He’s going to shoot up some friends we know in the Adelaide Hills.’ I thought oh, shoot up? That’s a bit of a worry this shooting up business. So anyway, we hopped in and away we went, and I’m a bit apprehensive about the shooting up business. And anyway all he did was a few tight circles and waggled his wings and that’s all it was [laughs] I sort of imagined that he was going to go down and that sort of carry on. So we did that two or three times. That was my first trip in an aircraft. So I had been in an aircraft before I actually joined up. But I’ve even got a photo of that aircraft. It’s now over in Temora.
AP: Oh fantastic.
CKB: It had been kept here for quite a few years. And then it was a bit of a wreck I think apparently. And this bloke [pause] Temora is a [pause] what is it? It’s a sort of, I think they have — I’m not sure. Anyway, it ended up over there and they put a new engine in it and it’s flying. So that after how long? Seventy years. Yeah. I can show you if you’re interested.
AP: Oh yeah.
CKB: I can show you that. I think it’s, I think it’s in here somewhere.
AP: I’d like to have a look at that.
[pause]
CKB: It’s the first time I’ve looked at some of this stuff for a while.
[pause]
CKB: This is some of the stuff that happened while we were over in London for that Memorial a couple of years ago.
[pause]
AP: You can have a closer search through it in a little while perhaps.
[pause]
KB: Hey? I’m sure it was in.
[pause]
CKB: Oh well maybe it wasn’t. No. Can’t see it.
AP: That’s alright.
[pause]
CKB: Yeah. Oh well. Yeah. I’ve got all this stuff about that Memorial. That Annette had sent over.
AP: Oh yes. Yeah. That’s what this whole project’s for.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. She’s making the initial approach to people.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: So can you tell me something of, as an Australian in England, particularly a young Australian in England, what did you think of wartime restrictions of the civilian population of just generally life in England?
CKB: Well, it took us, yeah well see the point is there were no restrictions on us like there were the local population. We were eating food that they wouldn’t, wouldn’t see so much of especially when we were flying on ops. We used to get, you know, like fresh eggs and things like that which the local population — but I mean there were restrictions here when we left so that side of it, you know like meat rationing and whatever, but I don’t know we seemed to take it. Going into London you’d see all the buildings sandbagged up. I mean by the time we’d sort of got over there anyway all the mess from the blitz had virtually been cleaned up. There were, there were like empty blocks overgrown with grass and things like that. But I know when we first arrived in Brighton there were still a few odd raids coming over. We could hear the crump crump of the bombs in London from down at Brighton. And occasionally an odd plane or two would fly over. A German plane and things like that but most times we were on, on the camps you know, and we, it’s only when we were on leave that you’d mix with the — apart from going to the local pub perhaps wherever we were stationed. I don’t know. We just sort of took it all in our stride I suppose. I can’t [pause] I think we were [pause] we as far as I was concerned what I liked most wherever we were was just hopping on a bike and going to a local pub or something and having a pint or two or something like that. And we were, we were only eighteen. When we were at home we weren’t allowed to drink so I mean these things were all, you know, that’s what I’m saying. Aging, you know from eighteen you’re doing all these worldly things sort of that you wouldn’t have done if you were at home and there wasn’t a war on and things like that. So, no, there was part of growing up during wartime I suppose. No. In a sense it was all, you know, exciting. I suppose it was to other, you know, eighteen, nineteen, twenty year olds but like I said once you got to the squadron you sort of [pause] you knew that there was always a few who didn’t get back. But by the time we got there it was a lot better than whereas they were losing perhaps anything from five to ten percent a raid they’d only lose the odd plane occasionally towards the end of the war. But we were unlucky. I mean the last weeks of the war, you know but I don’t know how far, with all this going on that we mightn’t have made it. It was pretty iffy there for a while. But it was over my head to a certain extent because I was too busy navigating if you know, that was one reason why I even picked being a navigator. I thought well at least you had, you were working all the time and you’re not, you know, whereas if you’re an air gunner you’re sitting there and you’re looking around you. You’re doing your job but you know. And the wireless operator — the same thing. He had his job, but it wasn’t all the time but a pilot was. His job was, you know, full on. And my job was to, head down and make sure you’re, you’re getting there alright and you but even the navigation later on was totally different to the navigation earlier in the war. What they used to do they’d just say you’re going to bomb somewhere and the navigators or each individual plane used to work out how they were going to get there. You know, they just, but in my time, it was all, you know you had your times were strictly put down that you took off at a certain time. You timed that point was you had to reach by a certain time over target was that time. Not that you could always do it dead on time, but it was all strict because there were that many planes in the air. You could take anything from five hundred to six hundred planes flying to the one target it had to be regulated to a certain extent. But early in the war it was just Rafferty’s rules. They had no idea and the navigation aids weren’t available like they had later on.
AP: Apart from the last one that you’ve already told me about do any of your other operations stick out in your memory in particular?
CKB: Now, we [pause] when we before we did this raid our only operations were virtually limited to even leaflet dropping raids over Holland to get used to — this raid was virtually our first.
AP: Was it? Wow.
CKB: Yeah [laughs] Well, first full raid. Yeah. But we’d, even at OTU we’d done quite a few. We were lucky we didn’t have to do it when they called a thousand bombing raid earlier. They brought them in from training just to build the numbers up. But we didn’t take part in any of those, thankfully. We took part in Window dropping raids to get you used to get you flying in to France and that. No. We were, I was lucky. Who knows if I’d got there another month or two earlier I mightn’t be here now. I mightn’t have got back. So I mean that was what the war — we had a bloke who, I forget his name [pause] put it all on computer. Every raid that 463 and 467 did and there were some, some did their full thirty trips without one incident. You know, they went over, didn’t strike any fighters they, you know they went through the searchlights. A bit of anti-aircraft fire and but they didn’t report in these, didn’t report. They just went, came back, nothing happened. And yet you get someone else. See, what happened — I think once the, once, by the time we’d flown much of France had been, so all the fighters that the Germans had spread over France were concentrated in a smaller area. So even though they might have been a smaller, smaller lot but they were more concentrated so in effect it wasn’t getting any easier I would imagine and they were starting to get desperate I suppose. So that’s what happened. But I mean that was all experience. And even that, when I think back of it you know I — you did everything automatically. You’d think just jumping out of the plane like that. I mean you just, don’t — no panic. We’d been trained what to do so I mean you just do it. But I mean just how close you were to I can remember looking down when the upward firing things came up. There was a big hole in there and there was a big hole up there. Well that hole was only that far from [pause] sort of thing. And I also remember looking down when the pilot was trying to land the floor of the aircraft was awash with glycol fuel which was the fuel for the hydraulics. And I sort of thought then well, even with the you can probably put the wheels down, but would they lock properly, or —? So I mean all these things. If he tried to land and the undercarriage might have collapsed and who knows what. So you don’t sort of think. We did the best thing by jumping out of the aircraft because a lot of things [pause] as a matter of fact in my own mind I thought we should have jumped earlier. What was being fed to me. What was going on I thought well I think we should be [laughs] —
AP: Getting out.
CKB: Getting out. Now I mean, my biggest fear was what if we get to the — we’re losing height and what if we get to the English Channel. That was my biggest fear was crossing the English Channel. I didn’t want to [laughs] even ditching is not a nice thing but having to bale out over water I thought, I think we were better off. But anyway, but I mean the pilot, that’s their decision as to what to do so —
AP: How far inside the allied lines was Juvincourt?
CKB: Sorry?
AP: How far inside the allied lines was Juvincourt? Like how far away was the front line at this point. Or were you already well and truly over nominally friendly territory for like for a while before the aircraft crashed?
CKB: Probably — I’m just trying to think. Juvincourt. I think they’d got to the Rhine. So virtually nearly all of France was [pause] by this, oh yeah well it would have been I think. Yeah. I think [pause] I can’t — I don’t really know. You see the Americans were mostly down south. The British were doing the push mostly up north. I know, Montgomery, he wanted to, he got to the Rhine and he wanted to push into Northern Germany. He wanted to but the Americans held him back. They said no. But they were doing mostly their push. You see what, I think what happened they were trying to beat the Russians, or do.
AP: Right.
CKB: Trying to get as much territory before the Russians. I mean that — there was a lot of funny business went on behind closed doors when you think of it which has come out after the war that you didn’t know then. You knew nothing then about what was going on. But you get the feeling that it was all to do with they knew Russia was, you know, coming over. Yeah it was it’s like the bombing of [pause] you know that last raid they did in February.
AP: Dresden.
CKB: Dresden yeah. Apparently, that was only because Russia, they were forced into it because Russia wanting it to happen apparently. I mean really when you think in hindsight but you don’t know. They could have stopped bombing months before the end of the war. But you don’t know do you? It’s easy in hindsight to work these things out but, and even the good that the bombing did there’s big arguments over that. Whether they did any, shortened the war or what it did. You know, killed so many civilians and all this going, you know but they forget that the Germans did the same to England. So I mean they started out by bombing the wharves but then it gradually [pause] It’s like the, when we used to go on leave in London there was a place in Gloucester Road that was for the Australians to go and stay. It was about a four storey building I think. Anyway, in the event of air raids you’re supposed to go down. There were cellars down below. We used to go out on to the roof to watch when the V1s were coming across. The doodlebugs. And we’d have bets as to where, where they were going to land. You’d see the flash. You’d hear the sound of like chaff cutters coming over, you know. And it would be probably half a dozen a night you’d see. And we’d have bets. Is it going to go there? Is it going to there? And we’d sit up there. That was the poor beggars are underneath the when we dropped. That would be a frightening thing. You’d hear this noise coming over and then they’d cut off and you’d think where was that going to land? But yeah, I never saw any damage from those because they were very – it wasn’t like a bombing raid. They were spread out all over the, you know. It wasn’t sort of like a very accurate sort of —
AP: Fairly, fairly localised as well because there was only one. One sort of small bomb load dropped in one spot. That’s it.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: You could be in the next street and not know.
CKB: Could have been. Yeah. I mean the accuracy of it wasn’t very, very great. I mean they couldn’t pinpoint a target in any way. They just put enough fuel in to cover a certain distance and then it cut out.
AP: Did you encounter any V2s that you know of?
CKB: No. No. No, we were, I don’t think I was ever in London when, they were sort of, after the V1s weren’t they? I can’t [pause] no I don’t think we, I don’t think we went down to London on leave when they were I don’t think they were that many of them anyway. They’d attack there fairly heavy and the fighter bombers they really got stuck into the you know where they took off from. They knew quite a few of the places. They could pick them out where they were, but they didn’t do anywhere near the damage that they thought they were going to do. Thankfully. But I know they had thousands of them ready to go. I mean Hitler thought he could win the war with those.
AP: We’re talking about London. What sort of things did you do on leave in London. What did you do to relax I guess?
CKB: Well, it was, as far as I was concerned we used to, two or three of us always used to get together and it depended who you went with. What their ideas were. Mostly it was just taking in the sights of London and like I suppose we — there was a lot of, you know, we’d call in to a pub and have a few beers. By this time a lot of the places were opening too. Like places, you know, there were cinemas. Cinemas. More of them were opening. I can remember going to a few shows. I can’t quite remember what they were now. But I remember one thing in England. They were allowed to smoke inside their cinemas and I can remember we went somewhere — you could hardly see what was going on. Getting back to that — when we landed in Fremantle in Perth coming home. That night a lot of them went to the pictures. As soon as they got in they lit up. I wasn’t smoking at this time. I used to smoke a bit. Only because we were issued, virtually issued with them. They lit up and they were smartly told to put their cigarettes out. Yeah. I can remember they used to smoke. Well everyone in those days over in England used to smoke. It was, it was, I don’t know, like I said, I remember trying. We used to get issued with so many cigarettes. They were mostly American origin, you know. Lucky Strikes or whatever they were. And I thought — I got one of these cheroots. These big cigars. I thought I’d try those, and I forget where we were. Anyway, I lit up and laid down on the bunk and smoked for about, smoked half of it I think for about ten minutes and I thought it’s alright so I stubbed it out. Went to get up off the bunk and fell over. They were, you know these great, they were about that thick these, you know these big cheroots that the Yanks used to suck on. Because I wasn’t, I didn’t, no I didn’t used to smoke before I joined the air force at all. It was only the fact that I occasionally I’d [pause] even when we were issued with them. I used to have, when we were on leave mostly I used to take a packet of cigarettes with me. It never got to me.
AP: So if you didn’t smoke them what did you do with them?
CKB: Pardon?
AP: What did you do with them if you didn’t smoke them?
CKB: Gave them to someone else I suppose.
AP: I’ve heard, I’ve heard about other people using them as a sort of a currency.
CKB: Yes. Yes. I believe that. Oh yeah. That would have happened I’m sure.
AP: Put a packet on the bar and the drink would for free all night.
CKB: Yeah. Yes. That would happen. But there were a lot of things I didn’t get into. Like that. I mean, I remember when we went on leave there would always be a packet of contraceptive on your bed before you went out. Half the blokes used to blow them up on the train and hang them out the window [laughs] and let them go. But some of them, it’s a funny thing what I can remember. It was always the unmarried ones who used to brag about what they used to do and it was the married ones that kept very silent. So, I don’t know what they got up to. I don’t know [laughs] The married ones were married back home not the ones that were married [laughs]
AP: Yeah.
CKB: No. I wasn’t, I wasn’t in the least interested in the female side of things. I was more interested in being over there in England and you know, taking in the, you know the country itself. Yeah. And when we’d go on leave we’d go all over the shop. I think we saw more of England than most the locals would have seen.
AP: In the same way that when they come over here and see more of Australia than I’ve ever seen.
CKB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: [unclear] years. Very much so.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: Alright. Getting towards the end of my list here how did you find re-adjusting to civilian life after three years of being in the air force?
CKB: Yeah. I think I found it a bit hard. Mainly because I hadn’t thought about it much if you know what I mean. I thought, ‘What am I going to do now?’ So what I did was — nothing. You know, I had a, we got back in January. New Year’s Eve pretty well. And I just relaxed for a couple of weeks and then two or three weeks and sat about not thinking about much and then my sister was working in the office of Yalumba Wines and they needed — I was studying accountancy and I was going to three nights a week that’s what I was studying at the School of Mines or whatever it is. And, you know relaxing. That was at night time study. And my sister said, oh we need a office, or virtually an accountant, to keep the girls in check. There were about four typists and receptionists. So I thought oh well I’ll go there. So, I ended up there for about four years. In Yalumba Wines. And my wife, Margaret was the receptionist so that’s where I met her. So we got married and then yeah, I got into that job and still kept studying accountancy. And I gave that job up. I thought couldn’t see much future there so I thought I’d give the banks a go so, to get a bit of experience in banking. So I joined the Commercial Bank for about three or four years I think I was there and anyway in this meantime we had farming property up, just up north at Saddleworth and it had share farmers on it. So the share farming agreement had finished so in the end I decided I would go up there and do the farm, on the farm because I would have been involved in it anyway once dad, he got to old so we decided to go up there and we were up there for thirty years. Retired. We’ve been down, retired for thirty years now. My years have been in thirty years. Thirty years living in the city. Had the war. Thirty years up in the farm. And thirty years retired virtually so that’s I’ve had a fairly varied life I suppose which I enjoy. And I can’t envision working in one job. I was probably after the war you were, I think a lot were like that. A bit unsettled. They probably couldn’t settle down to one, you know. Your whole lifetime doing one jobs. I like to vary things. Even on the farm when we were up there I liked to do things in a different way just to find out if they worked better. You know, it’s something like that. Try something different. Didn’t always work out but it was —
AP: So you’ve told me that the three years that you spent in Bomber Command you felt you aged almost ten years. What’s the legacy, do you think, of Bomber Command? For you personally and overall. And how do you want to see it remembered?
CKB: So [pause] what was that again?
AP: So what, what’s the legacy of Bomber Command, both for your personally and overall?.
CKB: Well I know it’s going to — see even I can remember when there used to be I’m going to talk about Adelaide there used to be Bomber Command dinners besides squadron dinners. As a matter of fact I went to Bomber Command dinners before I went to squadron dinners but then we moved to the country and that sort of stopped but the — I can remember at one of the Bomber Command dinners there was someone, they got someone from the air force to talk about like there’s no longer Bomber Command. It’s, you know, that’s gone. That’s finished. ‘There’s no longer bombers that are, you know doing what you chaps did,’ but I think it’s like as we all pass on what will happen to it? It’ll all just go won’t it? It’ll disappear.
AP: I hope it doesn’t disappear entirely which is one reason why we’re here collecting these interviews now, I can assure you.
CKB: Yeah. I’m just thinking that it’s a good thing that Annette and that lot. She does a good job I think to keep it running over in New South Wales isn’t it? Is she’s in Sydney.
AP: Yeah.
CKB: So I think, you see it’s a bit like the RSL. I know that the Vietnam lot it’s all the Vietnam war now rather than the Second World War of course but it would be nice to, you know, as far as I’m concerned get involved in it as much as we can but like I said age but if it’s going to keep going in any form it’s up to younger people though isn’t it? Like you, you know. So if that’s the case — good. Yeah. I’d like to see it you know kept in front of peoples. You take Anzac Day there. They’re thrashing that and that was a mistake. And I don’t know whether Bomber Command was a mistake like some like to say it shouldn’t have happened the way it did but it would be interesting to know what the outcome of the Second World War would have been in Europe if it hadn’t been for Bomber Command. I mean Fighter Command they probably saved Britain in 1940 sort of thing. The fighters. Oh well it’s, c’est la guerre. It’s part of the war. No. I’d like to see it carry on in some form and I’m sort of on the younger edge of [pause] there will be a lot more gone before I’m, I’m the younger group of them and the majority of them will be in their middle nineties now. I’m only ninety one.
AP: Only ninety one.
CKB: Yeah [laughs] and I consider myself reasonably fit but I have my problems. My old legs give out occasionally. My back gives out occasionally. But I, you know, getting back to the war like I said how luck played a part in Bomber Command. Like I said there were blokes did a whole tour without one incident and I can’t understand why that can happen. We, we’ve got in 463 Squadron Peter Giles used to come along to our meetings and, I forget — oh it was a Berlin raid. That’s right. And they were I don’t know whether it was flak or what happened, but the plane exploded, and he was blown out of the rear gun [pause] he can’t even remember putting his parachute on. Anyway, he, he ended up on the ground. His parachute had opened. He ended up in a snowdrift. It was in January or February I think. He was the only one who got out of that and he just died a couple of years ago. He was in one of the Stalags out east and they were released when the Russians were coming. And he, he would have a story to tell because even when they were released and there were hordes of them were moving west and in the middle of winter. And they were even strafed by our own planes because they thought that they were all the enemy sort of, you know. And he would have had a story to tell. And they hardly had anything to eat. They started off with guards with them. Eventually they, as the Russians kept coming and they just disappeared, and they were on their own. Just eventually made it back to [pause] I don’t know whether it was the American lines or somewhere. I know of quite a few instances where planes had blown up and they had no idea what happened. You know.
AP: Yeah. Luck is —
CKB: Luck comes into it an awful lot.
AP: One of my interview subjects wrote a book about his war service. He was actually a liberator pilot, but he called it the survival of the fortunate.
CKB: Oh yeah.
AP: For exactly that reason. He managed to avoid Bomber Command. That was one piece of good luck. There were a couple of others that happened. So, yeah, very much.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: And there was joy that people in the same raid, same operation who had completely different experiences on that raid.
CKB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Some ran into heavy flak and fighters and some floated through.
CKB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: So –
CKB: Yeah, it’s got nothing to do with how a good a crew you are or what —
AP: Might have something to do with that. But –
CKB: It’s just, yeah. Oh there’s lots of stories of, you know the books I read that spare crews had gone and one chap’s even done two tours so he was a high ranking bloke thought he’d like to do one more trip or something and that’s the end of him. I mean how long do you test your luck anyway?
AP: Yeah.
CKB: If I’d one tour I don’t think I’d be worried too much about volunteering to another. I’d think my luck had swung my way for long enough.
AP: Yeah [laughs]
CKB: Yeah. Oh I can remember even at OTU we had a few close calls that weren’t that bad but, you know. I was surprised. I was reading somewhere where how many were killed in training. It was tens of thousands in aircrew. I mean your luck’s there all the time but once you start flying but when you think it’s an unusual thing to be doing anyway up there, and you’re reliant on your ground crew as well. How good they do their job with the aircraft and all that. As a matter of fact they’ve got probably they should be complemented more probably than the people who flew the planes. I don’t know. The ground crew. The jobs they did to keep the planes flying. When you consider the state that some of the planes used to come back in. They’d fix them up. Keep going. I know there would have been a lot of accidents through, you know, people killed through bad things that happened on the ground. Ground staff. Ground crew. But that’s just part of it. That’s another thing where luck comes into it I guess. It’s all. I suppose it’s the same with any, whether you’re in the army or the navy. The same thing. Luck comes into it. You take the navy. The Atlantic. Coming over where the U-boats were, or [pause] luck came in there a fair bit too. Yeah. It was all — luck came into it. I mean you go back and whatever happened previously your time frame of what you were doing where you were determined what happened in the future doesn’t it? If this hadn’t happened or that hadn’t happened, what would have happened? It would have been totally different. So that’s — yeah.
AP: Very nice. Alright. Do we have any, any final thoughts?
CKB: I don’t know. I think. I just hope oh one thing I think is that they go on about the atomic bomb but I’m sure if it wasn’t for the atomic bomb there would have been another world war with Russia or whoever. I think that’s the only thing that stopped it. The threat of the atomic bomb. I know it’s a bad thing but I think it stopped, you know, a world wide war. I mean who’d want to start an atomic bomb war or an atomic war. The whole world would be wiped out. I think they’re used, countries only use it for their own to stop, you know they used it as a blackmail threat, ‘If you do this I’ll do that,’ or something like that and stop these little things from growing into big things I guess. And that’s my thought on the atomic bomb anyway. Well, what is it now? Hydrogen bombs is it or —? I mean who wants to load themselves up. In that you know that’d be a stupid thing to do I mean. Any country now that — the only trouble with that is if it gets into the hands of a crazy person that’s where a threat could be that they don’t care what they do. They just go ahead and — don’t know [laughs]
AP: Absolutely. Certainly saved you guys from Tiger Force as well.
CKB: Sorry?
AP: Certainly saved you guys from Tiger Force.
CKB: Yeah.
AP: Right.
CKB: Yeah. I think it is I don’t often talk that much about it at all but it’s good to talk about it I suppose.
AP: I’m very glad you have for the benefit.
CKB: I was a bit worried about whether I’d have anything interesting to say.
AP: Plenty of interesting. I think we’d got about five minutes in and I went oh that’s interesting already.
CKB: Yeah [laughs] but as far as the war goes you’ll find David Lester’s a lot more probably interesting. I don’t know what he state of health is now. I think he’d probably still alright. He can remember most things. Frank as I said he’s his eyesight’s his main worry.
[background chat with visitor]
AP: I think we’re just about to finish off here with the recording so thank you very much.
CKB: Yeah. No. That’s fine. Yeah.
AP: It’s been an absolute pleasure.
CKB: Yeah. Good yeah.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ABruhnCK160430
PBruhnKC1601
Title
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Interview with Clarence Keith Bruhn
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:48:55 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2016-04-30
Description
An account of the resource
Clarence Keith Bruhn's parents were of German descent. He grew up in Australia and joined the Royal Australian Air Force. After training, he flew operations as a navigator with 463 Squadron. On one operation his aircraft was hit by friendly fire from another Lancaster and by a Me 210 with upward firing guns. He navigated the captain to Juvincourt and baled out over liberated territory.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
France
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
entertainment
Lancaster
military living conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Lichfield
RAF Metheringham
RAF Waddington
recruitment
shot down
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/271/3424/PHenwoodP1701.2.jpg
5bd36850f41a574b0a6cb559380241aa
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/271/3424/AHenwoodP171125.1.mp3
7d85bbdcc9253696b663f18de3fe16fd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Henwood, Priscilla
Priscilla Henwood
P Henwood
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Priscilla Henwood (b. 1921, 21397/2618 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Henwood, P
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Margaret Carr. The interviewee is Priscilla Henwood. The interview is taking place at Priscilla’s home in Helderberg Village, Somerset West, South Africa on Saturday the 25th of November 2017. Priscilla, thank you so much for seeing me today. I really appreciate it. Would you like to tell me just a little bit maybe about your early life, where you went to school and your family.
PH: Thank you, Margaret. Thank you very much for taking time on your two day visit to come and visit me. I feel very very honoured. Truly honoured. And it’s lovely to meet you and your family. My early life. Well, my early life. My brother and I were twins. Our parents lived in, were stationed. Well, my father was stationed in the Royal Air Force, or Royal Flying Corps in Palestine in the 1916/17 I suppose. And then my mother was stationed in Salonika in Greece — working with the Queen Alexandra’s Imperial Military Nursing Service Reserve. And they all wore grey and scarlet and they were very, very elite nursing sisters. Anyway, she was there until the end of the war and then she went. She somehow managed to go from Salonika to Palestine to meet my father whom she’d known before in her early life in — down in the New Forest. And so they were married in 1919 in Cairo. In the riots. Always riots in Cairo. And I see today two hundred, six hundred people have been killed in Cairo. This is today. Saturday. In November 2017. It’s a tragic country. Anyway, they were married there and went back. Eventually they went back to England. And my brother and I were born at Farnborough. One of the first RAF stations in, in Hampshire. Royal Flying Corps. We were born in October 1921. And my father was stationed near. Then, it all changed then and people were re-routed and reconnected. He left the air force and eventually we lived in London. All sorts of post war problems that we recognise today. They were the same problems back in 1920s and ‘21s. In fact they call the 1918 to 1939 “The Long Armistice.” And so anyway there we were living in Sussex for a while and then my brother and I grew up in London. In Maida Vale and St John’s Wood. And we had a happy time visiting, with going to museums. The Science Museum or the, always Westminster Abbey, the unknown warrior. And so we, we went and we grew up there. I went to school in Maida Vale and then to secretarial College. My brother went to school at Monmouth. And then just before the war in about 1938 I had a great friend whose father was in the War Office and he recognised this war was coming. He recognised that women were going to be recruited in to munitions or farmer’s labourers and all sorts of things. So he arranged for my friend Joan Morgan and myself to join the 600, City of London Squadron. That was a fighter squadron in London obviously. And they wore, they wore red and scarlet cloaks. Or their cloaks were lined with scarlet. They were an elite but they were stationed at Hendon. And this is a bit, this is an interesting part. We used to, I used to go about once a week. I never actually went down to Hendon but they had meetings in the HAC headquarters and at Finsbury Barracks in London. And the idea was that we were to be as a group. We weren’t really the WAAF yet. We were going to be the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force and we were going to do exactly what everybody had done in the first war. We would go with the squadron, 600 City of London Squadron. We would go and be typists or telephonists or cooks or drivers, or whatever. Medical assistants. And so then we went to various lectures. Very interesting people from the first war. And learning about how it would be in trenches and stations in Europe when we were conquering Europe. But it was not to be. The training went on. My brother was in the Royal Fusiliers in that time. So we were pretty well prepared for the war when it came. In fact, I was called up before the war. And we went. We were then based at Finsbury Barracks in London and did recruiting. The great thing was we used to recruit young women for the air force and then they’d say, ‘Yes I want to be, I want to be in the air force. I want to be in the secret service. That’s what I want to be.’ So we said, ‘Well that would be nice.’ I said, well we must have, one of the first things we had to do is to go for a medical. And there at Finsbury Barracks we used to take, one of those places to be — ‘No. I can’t go for a medical today. I was out at a party at the nightclub all last night. So can I come back and have a medical later?’ [laughs] In fact one particular person did come back and had a medical and she passed. And the big passing was that I remember my [unclear] — fit, brave one, mentality alert. And so we were launched. And so I did various tasks in Finsbury Barracks. Including working on the telephone exchange at Clerkenwell. And then in October 1940 I was posted. And I went off with a rug in a rug bag and ready to go to the trenches really. That’s what we thought would happen. But anyhow off we went to Royal Air Force Station Bassingbourn. B A S S I N G B O U R N. Which is near Royston in Hertfordshire and Cambridge. And that was an Operational Training Unit for Wellington bombers and we, I was in the equipment section and typing on a Royal machine. And you see, I mean, they said, ‘You’re setting that machine on fire.’ There was a lot of nonsense going on. We were all very young. And one of the people who was stationed there was Hope Embry and her husband Basil Embry became a most highly honoured and significant member of Bomber Command. And he survived the war. I think you can read more about Basil Embry. But he was a lovely person. Obviously, I was all of seventeen and thought I was, I’d conquered the world, you know. I had arrived. But he was, I suppose much older. Probably twenty five you know. And there was Corporal Bates who was in charge of equipment in this Operational Training Unit and he used to tell us a story of how he was in charge of, of parachutes. And his parachute, what it did, what happened was they decided to change where the parachute, they had the rip cord here but then they decided it was awkward, and fear. And he used to tell us this gruesome story of a pilot who used his parachute, forgot it was on this side and they said he’d scratched himself to nothing on the way. We always used to be horrified by that story. And so it was very, very interesting and we saw the Wellington bombers. We met a lot of sergeant pilots. There was one man called Wally Walsh who was from Toronto. And I remember another, Len Day from London. There was several of them. And what we used to do as we became a little more used to Royal Air Force life we’d walk up to the pub at Royston. It was probably not as far as Royston — Bassingbourn. A local pub. Well I always remember before I left to join the air force or to go to Bassingbourn my mother said, ‘Now, Priscilla, you may, you must be very careful what you drink.’ She said, ‘You may have a shandy. Ginger beer shandy. You may have a little sherry, but no cocktails. Don’t you ever have cocktails,’ and since then I never had a cocktail. Now I never drink cocktails [laughs] but it was all very innocent. Two or three of us used to go with these dear men. They were just that much older than us. They never took advantage of us. We all went up to the pub and had a shandy and played shove ha’penny and had a lot of laughter. And those were those early days of the war, before Christmas in 1939. And then I went, I remember I went home for Christmas. Some of the, some of these pilots had had a car and one of them drove a lot of us up to London where my mother was now living in a flat. And so that was the first Christmas of the war. And my brother came down, still in the army, from wherever he was stationed. Bushey I think. And so life was very interesting and we learned a lot. Bassingbourn. And it was very, especially good for me because my, my cousin was still at University in Cambridge. And so I could cycle to Cambridge. In fact one day I walked from Bassingbourn to Cambridge. This was lovely. It was fun. So we did that. And there was talking about photographic interpretation. There was a Photographic Interpretation Unit at Benson just near, and I had never went to Benson but I met people who were there. And it was wonderful work they did interpreting a little dot in the sky. In those days with no, no modern facilities. And they did wonderful work those photographic people. And then we used to go into Royston. So then, in May 1940 a message came, or a signal came. My name was Welsh then. W E L S H. That was my maiden name. I meant to tell you that going to Cambridge I met, I’d already met him but I met Paul who I was eventually to marry or who would marry me. But he was a great friend of my cousin. They were having their last year at Cambridge and then they both went off. He into the army and Paul was, who I married, into the navy. But that’s another story. Anyway, that was so, I didn’t waste much time when I was at Bassingbourn. But I enjoyed every minute. It was all an education. Like a university education I suppose. And so then I was stationed, sent to London to the Air Ministry War Room. W A R room. In, in Whitehall. Near the [pause] I think it’s a, not the Home Office [pause] I can’t remember but it was that end building at the end [unclear] at Whitehall. And the Spanish, the St James’ Steps, King Charles Steps below, in to Green Park. Anyway, I went there as a rookie little WAAF and was put in to a correspondence. What do you call it? Just give me a minute.
MC: Secretarial. Typing and —
PH: Just put this thing off a minute.
[recording paused]
PH: Well, I was in the room where all the correspondence came. And in those days in The Air Ministry in 1940 it all came through on tubes. Like you have at the grocer’s shop or the haberdashers. You know ,they all had these tubes coming in, down and these messages would come in. So really it was a very responsible job because extraordinary messages came. One actually I remember was Amy Johnson. Amy. She was the wonderful pilot. And she had been, some said she’d been shot down into the Thames but she, she had crashed in to the Thames in London at that time. That would be about probably June 1940. So this, then I was to be there in the Air Ministry War Room for the next year and actually it was May 1941. We used to go up to, walk up to Westminster to Trafalgar Square for lunch. And Myra Hess played and it was quite peaceful. Then of course the Blitz started. And so then I had very interesting work then but we seemed to just take it in our stride because we did twelve hours on, twelve hours off in the War Room. And we’d have just a, right down in the bowels of the, of the War Rooms. The War Office I’m sure. And we used to have time off and we’d go up and amongst the ramparts of the building. Churchill and Clemmie would be walking about too because he had his secret place down below. Quite close to where we were. And the whole idea, object of the War Room, Air Ministry War Room was to supply the Cabinet War Room with up to date information. So all the correspondence came in and then we distributed to the, to the necessary parts. One of the very important parts was stats. Statisticians. How many tons of bombs had been dropped. Tons of bombs and then piles of bombs I think they called them in America. So stats was very important. And somebody was working at the back at the war room on them and it was very interesting because they were also working in the Battle of Britain. So messages were coming in and they’d, rather like the cricket scores. Twenty four for two. Six for eight. You know. They were counting it all. So that was a very interesting time for me. But then suddenly when I could go into all sorts of details but there was a great feeling of, of confidence and hope. You know, we never thought of any other way but we did realise that by then, by 1940, the end of 1940 just before the Blitz ended, the big Blitz ended there were no more planes. No more pilots. Just one more and suddenly Hitler had a brainstorm and decided he was going to attack Russia. Do something extraordinary. So my part as a WAAF, I was still a WAAF, they suddenly said I must go on a corporal’s course. I said, ‘Oh that’s lovely.’ I can’t remember where I went to that course. It may have been to Alnwick for that. I know I went to Alnwick in South Shields later but, so I did a corporal’s course and came back with these two stripes and was sent. I can’t, I can’t remember. Oh yes. I was sent to Tangmere but to be down in a little GCI station, Durrington near Tangmere. Anyway, I wasn’t long on that course and somebody said I must go on an officer’s course. Oh I know. Sorry. I did go from that corporal’s course. I went up to Chester. To Cheshire. To Honington. RAF. That’s it. From the corporal’s course that other bit. I never went, I didn’t go back to the War Room. I was sent to RAF Honington in, in Cheshire. Near Liverpool. So there I was with a, with a very nice sergeant. Woman sergeant. And she and I became great friends. And we had a big challenge at, as you were, it was not Honington. Honington was where my bomber friends went. It was Hooton Park in Cheshire. And that’s where I was stationed for, from April 1941 ‘til about July I think. And my promotion to sergeant came through and then in the same correspondence I was told I must go to an officer’s course at Loughborough. I remember saying, ‘Can’t I be a sergeant first and then go to Loughborough?’ They said, ‘No. You must stay as a corporal then you go to Loughborough.’ So I went to do the officer’s course at Loughborough and I was there for six weeks I suppose, whatever. And somehow or other I passed and I went to, I was posted to Tangmere. But going back a while I haven’t said enough about that time that I was in Bassingbourn. Can I go back to that? Because these, I told you about these, these chaps who were, they were all sergeant pilots and very fine men. Then they went off to — one went to Honington in Bomber Command and the other one went to Marham. I think he was 215 Squadron in Honington and 9 Squadron in Marham. Also up near Bury St Edmunds and there they flew and then I lost touch with them really but I know that Len Day went to Malta with Bomber Command. And while he stayed in London and then as war went on one lost touch. But I knew they did wonderful work. But I never really found out what happened to them but these people were the salt of the earth and so steady. And so that that time in in Bassingbourn which I just spoke about earlier made a very strong impression on me. It was a short time really but it was, it gave me inspiration and confidence and as I said earlier one always felt secure. They weren’t, there weren’t problems. At least I never found them. Probably there were too. So now I go back to my arrival at Tangmere. The day I arrived at Tangmere everybody was in mourning because Bader, the famous legless pilot, had been shot down that day. That was in August 1941. And there’s this famous story about his legs. They wanted to, the Germans said they’d give safe passage for his legs. And Fighter Command said not on your life. We’ll bring them over, as it was [laughs] if you catch us you catch us. We don’t want any special courtesies. We’ll just bring his legs. And they did. They flew them over. I think they parachuted them down. And Bader went on to have an extraordinary career too as a prisoner of war. But it was very interesting for me to be at Tangmere. There were Hurricanes and Spitfires and they’d had a tremendous bashing in the Blitz and a lot of people were killed and a lot of WAAF were also injured. And some of them were, were honoured with medals for bravery in that Blitz. But this was in 1940 when I was in London. So I, I went after that so all was so called peaceful then. There was no more bombing there. And then they, they had, this was what I was saying earlier. It was a little station near Ford, near Arundel, also in Sussex. Down from Tangmere. And I was put in charge, only having been on a course as an adjutant. And I was put in charge of this little station which was GCI and doing, working in radar. This favourite vital work. So we had this little office down below then, up at the top of the hill where these people were working on the radar. And wonderful things that came from, from that radar time. Interception and all that and I knew the [pause] when I was at Durrington it was probably early in 1941. There was a, it would be probably September ‘41 there was a warning that the Germans were coming to Durrington. They’d be parachuted in to, to get the people who were doing the radar work up at the top of the hill and kidnap them and take them back. And so they said, ‘Now, you people here below who are looking after them, you are going to be getting issued with Tommy guns so that you can protect your people.’ And along came a Home Guard. A Home Guard chap with a Tommy gun and he said to me, ‘I want you to learn to fire a Tommy gun. When the Germans come you’ve just got to pick this thing up and go boom, boom, boom and he’ll be dead and then you,’ [laughs] and then I put it on my shoulder and tried and I couldn’t do a thing with it [laughs]. I said, ‘I’m very sorry but you’ll have to have a bigger chap than me to protect these people.’ So there was a lot of laughter about that and of course the, again Hitler changed his mind and they didn’t come. So then, when I was there in Durrington and got married in the middle but that’s another story. A lovely time. It really was. My brother was, by that time, in the air force and he’d been shot down in the North Sea but rescued after two days and my husband Paul had been in the Malta convoy. He’d been in a Russian convoy but at this time he was in a Malta convoy relieving with The Ohio which was a ship with supplies for Malta. And anyway while he was in this convoy in Italy somewhere they were very upset. They were bombed by an Italian plane which was very interesting, and they said the plane was badly hurt, the ship was destroyed. They’d lost a whole keg of sherry they’d been given somewhere. That upset them. Anyway, he, he survived and we were married in 1942. In the war. Again near Cambridge, near Bassingbourn. So I was stationed. I went on to be stationed at Durrington and then went on another course and my, my husband left South Shields in his destroyer, a new destroyer to go to the Far East and he was away for three years. And I was on another course at Alnwick and enjoyed that. And I was stationed. Then I was sent to Biggin Hill. Stationed at Biggin. Again as adjutant. Sailor Malan was a famous South African pilot. And a lot of the Free French Air Force were there. And they were famous because they had at Biggin Hill, the squadrons there had shot down a thousand bombers. There was a tremendous publicity stunt with the papers. There was a big ball at the Dorchester to which we all went. All the, all the Windmill Girls were given open invitations to come to Biggin Hill for that weekend so there were high jinks with the Windmill and the other, I suppose night club characters would come. And Biggin Hill was the talk of every Sunday newspaper and everywhere in the world. They shot down a thousand planes and all the wonderful men which of course they were wonderful men. There was no doubt about it. And then they were to have a reception at [pause] in, at Biggin and Lord Trenchard was to come. Lord Trenchard, one of the founders of the Royal Air Force. Royal Flying Corps. And he came and the pilots told me that he, he came very much in his military Royal Flying Corps sort of uniform I think. Very impressive. He came and he said, ‘Good day gentleman,’ he said, ‘I come here to give you one message. It’s the bomber’s boys who is going to win this war. Good day gentlemen.’ And he turned and left. All the deflated people who were not really. That was, that was the big thing was the bomber boys who were going to win this war which of course we remember very well happened. And that, the tragedy of that was that the bombers did the job they had to do as we well know with, and I had many friends there and people to do with it and the casualties I knew. But after the war they were treated like [pause] like rats had left the ship. It was disgraceful. And people said, ‘They bombed Dresden. Dresden. With all that china. Look what they did,’ and I’d say, ‘Well Dresden was a route for those bouncing bombers to go thorough.’ They were, they were transporting all these bombs to go through to wherever they did. So those bombs were based before they bombed. These wonderful men who of course I can’t even think of the names as I’m talking but everybody knows them and they, well they saved, saved England really. Saved the world. And we all said if it had not been done, if the bombing had not been done successfully we would all be speaking German today in England. Nobody really saw that. People still don’t realise the precarious critical situation we were in because Churchill would always talk and buoy us up and life went on. And those bombers and the fighters. We all needed each other. And the Coastal Command and Transport Command, and balloons we all needed but it was the bombers who were the vital factor in any war. And their bombing saved Britain and to me it is, one feels ashamed that they’re only now being recognised and still people say, ‘But they bombed Dresden. How could they dare to bomb Dresden?’ Never mind they bombed London and would have absolutely finished us if they’d had their way. So, so where did we go from there? Let’s have a rest.
MC: Do you want me to turn this off for a short while?
[recording paused]
PH: I’m talking with Margaret about Bomber Command and at Hucknall and Scampton and others that I can’t remember, some of those. I was never actually stationed again on a Bomber Command station but we knew about them and recognised them and honoured them and a lot of the, it was an extraordinary life they lived because they lived in a nice cosy little English town where they’d be in tea rooms and life would go on and the station, people stationed nearby and some of the pilots —
[doorbell rings. Recording paused]
MC: Ok.
PH: Can you go back to what I said?
[recording paused]
PH: I was probably talking about, have you been to the War Room in in —? Cabinet War Room in —
MC: In London.
PH: King Charles’ Steps there. And you know how they said there’s nothing more. There’s nothing we can do. And then Hitler, you know, we believe in prayer. I don’t know, we’d had, we’d had a World Day of Prayer and suddenly Hitler changed his mind, we don’t know. I don’t know. I’m not telling anybody what they should or should not do or how they should be but there is something more than we know. It’s not just, it’s not just the computer and wireless and all these wonderful new ways of [pause] somebody said I’m watching a good film. Somebody gave me a stick. You get a stick and you put it in your television and then you watch a film. So we’ve got all these wonderful contraptions and things but we still can’t regulate the weather. We can’t regulate the tides and we can’t regulate the eclipses of the moon and the sun. And what happened two thousand years ago at such a time suddenly happens again two thousand years later, whatever, at such a time. There’s something more than even our brains can do. But so there we are. So I was talking about the faith and they had the, there was faith. We couldn’t have managed without faith in those days of war and I think maybe we might have done better in these last ten years if we hadn’t been prohibiting people from praying at the school. And you mustn’t mention Jesus and you mustn’t talk about Christmas. You talk about the holiday. Anyway, somehow and then other people come and say what’s what about this God? He doesn’t do anything for us. Well poor chap he doesn’t get much chance. He’s not allowed. So I’m not into religious talk but I do believe in faith and I do believe that it was the faith and prayer that brought us through that war. Maybe without, it would have happened, but we haven’t come through very well this lot. So where are we back to? Can you just stop a minute?
[recording paused]
PH: And then the pilots would get married and their wives would come down and stay in the local hotel or boarding house or get a house and next to the RAF station so they’d live a normal sort of life. But then at night time they’d hear boom boom. The bombers going off. Counted them and when they came back five, six, sixth where’s the sixth? And they’d be off to the station to see if their husband had come home. So there was an extraordinary artificial but normal life living right in a war. Yet going as I say, you would go to the flicks. Everybody went to the flicks in those days, and going to the pub. So that I think the wives and the mothers really suffered. Even if they were in a town where they didn’t have a husband or son or somebody they heard the bombers going off and they would listen for them to come back and there would be one short or none would come back or something. And they would be very much aware of these people. So there was a strong [pause] a feeling of rationing, of letters to the Far East. Air letters we did, air letter cards we wrote. And they would be they would be minimised and sent off. And I think that people like myself who were privileged to be in the air force it was a full interesting life. We were all in it together. But for the mothers with the children and the one egg and a couple of potatoes a week and maybe some, a bit of meat — it was, it must have been terrible. And those cold, cold winters. One, one good thing that came in the war at that time was Lord Woolton and his feeding. All those children. They were very bonny — the wartime children. He had a special orange juice sort of proceeded so that all every child had on their ration card — orange juice. No bananas. They didn’t know about bananas in those days. So that the children were well cared for but the mothers had a terrible time. And other people who came into the war at that time and did a lot of, a lot, a great job, were the land girls. And the Land Girls were often employed on, on farms and learned to milk the cows and to make up the hay and all the rest of it. But some of them of course were misused and used as maids. They would milk the cows and then come on in and make the breakfast for the farmer and his wife and his children. And they’d wash up afterwards and then go back to the fields. So the Land Girls were magnificent and did a great job. And the other people I always feel we’d never, they’d never been, to my knowledge, been recognised as they should have been were the mechanics. When those fighter planes landed the mechanics were there. They bashed, probably had some shooting, and the pilot would go off and have a shower and had some breakfast. Meantime this chap would be working on his plane so it was ready and he could take off again. Take off. And it’s the same with the bombers. Those chaps who looked after the — the engineers and the, all the people who worked on the planes. One has never really heard enough recognition of them, or for them. I think that is something that is missing. Maybe you could mention that to your people in Bomber Command. And Fighter Command too. Because they were, they were on the job and of course suffered terribly when their pilot was killed. And they, you know became, you know mates. Worked together. Worked on the plane. And so that was that. So then I told you I was, I did the officer’s course at Loughborough and I went to Tangmere and then did where I’d been. I’d put Hooton Park as well. But then I went to Biggin Hill. I told you this and as I said Sailor Malan was there. And Churchill lived nearby at Chartwell. And Sailor Malan’s wife was there too and she had a baby and Churchill was the baby’s godfather. He was there. It was a wonderful station Biggin. In spite of it being rather choked off by Lord Trenchard telling them that it would be the bombers who would win the war. Separate from Biggin Hill I went, I was sent on another course. Of course they loved to send us on courses. So it was very like being at university but you’re not. And a lot of legal work too. Not that I can remember any of it now, as you can hear. I can’t always remember the names of the stations but from, from Biggin Hill I went on this course and it was and I went to Shrewsbury, Shropshire. To Montford Bridge. And that was another training station. Rather like Bassingbourn had been originally. And I was stationed there as adjutant near another big RAF station — Oswestry. All near Shrewsbury. And the, and at Montford Bridge there were Czechoslovakian and Polish pilots all waiting. Doing circuits and bumps waiting to go. To go off, to fight. They were waiting to go off but the weather was dull all the time. and they were frustrated. And the Poles and the Czechs were not good friends so there wasn’t always a very good atmosphere there. But they were lovely. They used to call me — the Poles used to call me mamushka [gihana?] — little mother. And I, because I had to sort of tell them what to do. ‘Oh Adjie, can’t we do —?’ They wanted to fly but they couldn’t. They nearly went mad because the weather was so bad. And that was in, I’m talking now about 1943. October. That sort of time. And while I was stationed, while I was stationed there I had a phone call to say that my brother had been — it was an accident I think in a Mosquito night bomber and his plane had crashed. And he was alright but his observer wasn’t, and he went to try to rescue him and he was also burned. That was my twin brother. November 1943. Seventy something years ago now, just this week. So then somehow or other I didn’t apply so I left Montford Bridge and I went back to the Air Ministry of War Room in 1943, November. And I was in the Far East operations and was there ‘til the end of the war. ‘Till ’45. But my job there was to monitor signals that came in. And they came in then for one and we had to read them and work out the tonnage of bombs that had been dropped. This was all in the Solomons, in the New Guinea. All near Australia. All the fighting of the Japs which were impossible really. We’d never beat them as it seemed. Anyhow, we had to have this report ready by four in the morning to go through to Churchill to go to the Cabinet War Room where Churchill would be with, of course, all his people. And it had to be accurate. And I remember I made a mistake of saying Zagreb was [pause] and they were dropping bombs, dropping bombs on Zagreb which was west of, of the ocean. Of course it was east. Whatever it was I got it wrong and Churchill in amongst all the other things he picked up this mistake and it came back. He didn’t miss a trick. But it was very interesting time in the War Room with the Far East and the war going on in Italy. That was a new one. Remember we were fighting in Italy. That was an unnecessary tragedy too. And that was the time when I was in London of the bomb. What did they call them? Dropped bombs. I can’t remember. They came through silently and they dropped.
MC: Oh I know.
[pause]
MC: I know what you mean. Yes.
PH: I had a few adventures with that. And we were stationed in London again and it was a very exciting time in a way waiting. Waiting for D-day. Buzz bombs they were called buzz bombs. And they were the ones that were boom boom boom and then you heard them when it stopped that’s where they dropped. And then they had an even worse bomb that just came silently and it just, you didn’t know and the next thing was chaos. I experienced a bit of that when I was living by then at, when a whole group of us WAAF worked for officers all together in Chelsea. We had, there was a flat and somebody else had a room and we all used to get together. And there was quite a bit of bombing then in the night again. And I remember one of our, one of our friends had a flat in Chelsea. She had a lovely flat upstairs which she’d had for some years, it was her home. We were down, we were down below. A couple of us were down below in more the basement. So we would all come down to the basement for the night when the bombing was on. And then next day we’d go up onto the, into her flat when the sun was shining. And a big fruit to have in those days was rhubarb. We’d always have rhubarb. And I remember we had rhubarb at the top of the nook for pudding and he used to call them — we always heard, none of us had had babies but we always heard that the, after your baby you have a wonderful sort of party. You forget all the pain, all the problems, and just sit down and enjoy it. We used to call them our post baby, post bombing breakfast. Then I can remember going back again. Way back to when I was in the War Room in 1940. Again, we were caught one night going somewhere. A friend had had a flat in Ebury Street in, near Victoria Station. So the bombing was pretty hard that night but she had one of these records playing the Warsaw Concerto which had just come out and some Beethoven and boom, boom, boom you know, the sign from France when the code Beethoven’s fifth. So I can remember those days. We were really in trouble but it was alright. We were all in it together. And that’s, as I said earlier was how I felt sorry for the mothers who were left behind with the children and rationing and clothing. Maybe their own sick mother with them. Their diets were not easy. Neither, as I’ve said earlier, were the lives of the people that maintained the aircraft and the ships and the guns in the air force. We have a very fine young woman. Well, she’s not young any more, she’s my sort of age. She was on searchlights in London, and in the park and they used these lights all the time. And that must have been a big, big strain because they were right out on Hyde Park and I suppose Regent’s Park with these lights going, so they were a certain target for the bombers but she survived it all. She’s written her book about it. Then came, going back again now to the War Room and there was D-Day which we were all involved in in the War Room of course. And still the Japanese war going on I was very much involved in that. There were reports coming in. And we, the [unclear] then there was that sudden war. Somebody decided to fight in Holland between Holland and Germany and a lot of casualties there. I can’t, I’m trying to think of the name. We can probably think of it afterwards. But where the army obviously were involved. I’ll think of it, and tell you later but it was in, it was in Christmas 1944 because the, it was D-day was June ’44. 6th of June. But this was another little war that somebody seemed to start and it was on the Holland/German border, and we had a lot of casualties. And then after that came, came May and the end of the war. And I remember we were all, we were, I was on duty in the War Room that night and so we phoned Buckingham palace and asked, ‘Would the king and queen be out?’ And they said, ‘Yes.’ So we all went down to Buckingham Palace.
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AHenwoodP171125
PHenwoodP1701
Title
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Interview with Priscilla Henwood
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:00:01 audio recording
Creator
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Margaret Carr
Date
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2017-11-25
Description
An account of the resource
Priscilla was encouraged by a friend’s father to join the 600 Squadron in anticipation of the war. She was called up and was based at Finsbury Barracks, involved in recruitment. Priscilla also worked on the telephone exchange at Clerkenwell.
In October 1940, she was posted to RAF Bassingbourn, an Operational Training Unit for Wellingtons. Hope Embry, wife of Basil Embry was stationed there.
Priscilla was sent to the Air Ministry War Room in Whitehall and received correspondence in pneumatic tube system. She recalls an extraordinary message about Amy Johnson crashing into the Thames. She would see Churchill and his wife. They provided the Cabinet War Office with information, including statistics.
Priscilla went on a corporal’s course and was stationed briefly at RAF Hooton Park. After promotion to sergeant, she was sent on an officers’ course at Loughborough and then posted to RAF Tangmere and the ground-controlled interception (GCI) radar station at RAF Durrington. Priscilla was put in charge of the GCI station near RAF Ford. She did another course at Alnwick and was then made adjutant at RAF Biggin Hill.
Priscilla expresses her disappointment with how Bomber Command was treated after the war. She praises the land girls and mechanics, who were often overlooked.
Priscilla went to RAF Montford Bridge and was an adjutant at RAF Rednal. She returned to the Air Ministry War Room in 1943 and was involved in the Far East operations until the end of the war, monitoring signals. On D-Day they all went down to Buckingham Palace.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cheshire
England--Sussex
England--London
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1941
1943
1944
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
600 Squadron
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
faith
ground personnel
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Biggin Hill
RAF Hooton Park
RAF Tangmere
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/3442/PKirbyH1511.1.jpg
f2f26de792cac70f6b6c69e353b3a563
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/3442/AKirbyHVA160611.2.mp3
77fbbeda6cb538a1fc8c3a042b4c080b
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Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kirby, H
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TO: This recording was recorded for the International Bomber Command Centre digital archive which owns the copyright for this performance. OK, so what year were you born in?
HK: 1923.
TO: And, er, where were you born?
HK: In Kilburn. Kingsgate Road, Kilburn.
TO: I live near there. I live near there at the moment. I’m in West Hampstead.
HK: Oh, right. OK.
TO: And, er, when were you a child were you interested in aircraft?
HK: Not particularly no, although we did go to the Hendon Air Mus— display on occasions, um, but not, not particularly interested when I was young.
TO: What, what kind of aircraft did they have at the display?
HK: I think they were, er, sort of two-winged planes, yes. I can’t really remember much about it.
TO: Right and were your parents in the First World War?
HK: Yes, my fa— yes, my father was in the Army but he managed to survive.
TO: Did you, er, did he ever talk about his time in the war?
HK: Very rarely. We did go to the, er, an Army museum somewhere and he did explain a bit what he did but not very much.
TO: Is that on? And, er, when did you leave school?
HK: When did I leave school? At sixteen. We had moved to Kingsbury by then and I went to Kingsbury County School.
TO: And, er, what were your favourite subjects at school?
HK: Maths.
TO: And, er, did you use maths in your first job?
HK: No, not really, no. My first job was in the accounts department of London Electrics Supply. That was in Waterloo but, er, maths didn’t really come into it much.
TO: And, er, in the 1930s did they, did the papers talk about what Hitler was doing in Europe?
HK: I think they must have done but I wasn’t really interested at that time.
TO: And did you go to the cinema much?
HK: Yes, quite often, yes. I usually went with my mother and brother. My father wasn’t terribly interested.
TO: Do you remember any specific films you saw? Are there any films you remember seeing?
HK: Not really, no. I remember seeing some silent films early on but, er, I remember a film called “Rin Tin Tin” about a dog but I can’t really remember much about it.
TO: I have heard about that film but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it but my grandmother mentioned it to me once. And, er, do remember hearing about the Munich Agreement?
HK: Oh, yes, yes. That was 1938 was it? Yes, oh yes. I was a bit older by then.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
HK: I’m not sure whether it was just to delay things or not or whether he really thought it would be appeasement. But, er, I just don’t know.
TO: And after the agreement were people making preparations for war?
HK: Yes. Oh, definitely, yes. They seemed to think it was definitely coming by then.
TO: Was there any preparations you were involved in?
HK: No, not until the war started and then we dug the garden for allotments but nothing much at the time.
TO: And do you think Britain could have made better preparations?
HK: I don’t think so, no. Oh, possibly got in a better store of food [slight laugh]. I don’t know.
TO: But were you surprised though when you heard that war had started?
HK: I think we knew it was coming. Yes. Yes. I heard the, um, broadcast by Neville Chamberlain.
TO: Do you remember how you felt when you heard it?
HK: I really felt that, er, we’d have to — well, I don’t really know at that time. I was only about sixteen so — but apprehensive probably.
TO: And did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
HK: I had some uncles in the First World War. Oh, a younger uncle, um, was in the fire service and then he went in the Army. Yes. That was all at the time.
TO: And, er, did, how did you feel when you heard that France had been defeated?
HK: Well, I thought we had our backs to the wall by then, yes. So, er, had to get down and try and preserve ourselves.
TO: Do you think France let Britain down?
HK: I don’t really think there was much they could do at the time. Germany was too powerful.
TO: And, er, when war had started did you think it would be a short war or a long war?
HK: Well, I had hoped it would be a short one but I, I really don’t know. I didn’t really have an opinion then.
TO: Were you living in London when the Luftwaffe started their bombing?
HK: In Kingsbury, yeah.
TO: And can you remember any specific occasions?
HK: We did have a, a bomb came down in the road but it didn’t explode but, er, it damaged houses, they — I think the toilets cracked or something and there was a house about three doors away that was more damaged and they had to leave it. But no, no explosions took place.
TO: Did you witness any aerial battles at that time?
HK: Oh yes, at the time, yes. I was quite interested.
TO: Were you worried that the Luftwaffe might win?
HK: What, what’s that?
TO: The Luftwaffe might defeat the RAF. Were you worried?
HK: Well, I suppose I was worried but, er, we seemed to have the upper hand at the end of the Battle of Britain.
TO: What did you think of RAF leaders at the time, like, er, Dowding?
HK: Well, I can’t say I had much opinion at that age, no.
TO: OK. Do you remember what kind of rations you had? [sound of rustling papers]
HK: I couldn’t say definitely but I knew we had rations. Things were in short supply, yes?
TO: Did you have better rations though when you were in the Air Force?
HK: Yes, definitely.
TO: And did you, did you have an air raid shelter where you lived?
HK: We had the indoor one, the Morrison shelter, yes. I don’t think we ever used it really.
TO: Would the Morrison have been much use do you think?
HK: The shelter?
TO: Yes.
HK: Well, it, it would have been but as I said I don’t think we really used it much.
TO: And as there much bomb damage near where you worked?
HK: Where I worked? Quite a bit, yes. This was up in Waterloo.
TO: And were you worried that Britain might surrender?
HK: I don’t think I was. No, I don’t think I was, no. I, if I thought about I thought we’d probably succeed which we did eventually.
TO: And did you ever see anyone behaving badly during the Blitz?
HK: I can’t that say I did. No.
TO: Do you think people pulled together?
HK: Yes.
TO: So, when exactly did you come to join the Air Force then? [sound of rustling papers]
HK: This is a bit of a long story. Two school friends and myself tried to get in early on flying duties. They got in, eventually became navigators, but I was turned down. I wasn’t fit for flying duties at the time but I was called up in ’42, initially trained as a, a flight mechanic, er, went on to do a training as a fitter and, um, while I was doing the courses they were calling for volunteers to become flight engineers. This time I passed the medical and eventually became a flight engineer.
TO: Do you remember what kind of medical tests they gave you?
HK: Well, I remember sort of blowing in a tube and holding the mercury up and the colour blindness test. I don’t really remember much else.
TO: Was there a certain, was there a certain kind of educational test you had to do?
HK: I’m pretty certain there was but I can’t remember it.
TO: And did your maths play a role with you being selected as a flight engineer?
HK: I think it helped, yes. [sound of rustling papers]
TO: And would you — did you ever consider trying to be a pilot or navigator?
HK: I did but, um, eventually when I was called for the medical, um, I did explain I had originally applied and they said at that time I was quite fit to become a navigator but as that was going to take longer I thought I’d persevere with being flight engineer.
TO: Once you got into a certain role, like flight engineer, could you reapply to be something else?
HK: Yes, certainly. Yes.
TO: And what did you relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
HK: My mother was very apprehensive, yes. But I don’t know what else, no.
TO: And so, er, can you describe a bit more about your training for being air crew?
HK: Yes, well after I’d become a fitter I was posted up to Binbrook and did six months, mainly repairing airplanes, and after the six months I was posted to St Athan to do my training as a flight engineer. Eventually I passed out, went to the heavy engineering, er, heavy aircraft place at Winthorpe where I crewed-up. The rest of the crew were all Australian. So, er, then we went to Waddington on 467 Squadron initially and later, after about sixteen operations we were transferred to, um, 97 Squadron, a Pathfinders squadron.
TO: And do you remember the first time you went up in a plane?
HK: Yes. That, that was when we had the old Stirling planes for training. That was the first time I went up, yeah, but I don’t really remember much about that.
TO: What did you, er, think of the Stirling?
HK: I think they were really clapped out by then. This was in, yes, early ’44. Actually, on the — my pilot’s first, um, solo on the Stirlings he couldn’t get the wheels down. I had to wind them down by hand which was a long job but then the, um, port one wouldn’t lock so we were advised to go to, um, one of the air, air stations that were — had damaged aircraft. That was in Suffolk somewhere. I forget the name and, er, we went there and the undercarriage collapsed on that, collapsed on that side. We spun round but no-one was hurt. Then the instructor came down with another aircraft and made my pilot fly it back. That was all the excitement we had on that station.
TO: Were most bombers, did most bombers have the same layout inside?
HK: No, not at all, no. They were quite different. The flight engineer on a Stirling was way back. I’m not sure what it was on the Halifax now but, er, with the Lancaster it was next to the pilot.
TO: I, a couple of years ago I spoke to a chap who had been a navigator in Lancasters and he said in the Halifax you had, the navigator had a separate office downstairs or something.
HK: I believe so, yes.
TO: Did you have a particular favourite aircraft of the war?
HK: A favourite one. Well that was the Lancaster. No doubt about it.
TO: Was it, was it, was it, did it feel different flying a Lancaster, flying in a Lancaster to other planes?
HK: What?
TO: You said you were flying in a Lancaster. Did it feel different on board a Stirling?
HK: Yes, yes, it was much better, yes. I can’t really remember much about the Stirling.
TO: Were you ever aboard a Halifax?
HK: No.
TO: Or a Wellington?
HK: No. No.
TO: OK. OK. So, er, when you were sent to the squadrons what, what did — were they mainly Lancasters?
HK: Yeah. They were all Lancasters where we were, at Waddington and then Coningsby.
TO: And as the flight engineer what would your duties be aboard the plane?
HK: Well, to assist the pilot in taking off, um, keeping an eye on the engine temperatures and oil pressures all the time, um, keeping a lookout on the starboard side, um, and doing any repairs which were possible on board. That was about it I think.
TO: Could you please describe the procedure for taking off in a Lancaster?
HK: Well [clears throat] initially we had to check, um, go round the aircraft and check the outside, then inside we had to run up the engines in turn to see how they were, watch there no significant [unclear] as they called it and, er, then we taxied to the start off point, run up the engines with the brakes on until we got the green light and then we were away. The only trouble was on one occasion, as we were going round the runway, um, the brakes failed and the pilot managed to guide it by the engines and at the start off point we couldn’t run up against the brakes as was normal. We just got to the start and pushed the throttle forwards and went off. But we got off OK then coming back we went — I’m trying to remember the name of the place where we first went with the, er, the Stirling, but they’d got a long runway so we flew there and so they repaired the brakes and we flew back.
TO: How reliable was the Lancaster?
HK: Very reliable generally, yes. We did have a bit of trouble with the intercom now and again but no, generally very reliable.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
HK: Yes, quite, quite friendly yes but, er, I think I ought to have been more friendly at the time but I was young, young and they were older people so, er, I, I don’t think I got as friendly as I should have done.
TO: How old were the people you were with?
HK: The, the ground crew? Oh, I reckon in their thirties, um, most, most of them I think were regulars. [beep sound]
TO: And what about the crew aboard the bomber. How old were they?
HK: Well, I was the youngest. The pilot was twenty-eight. I was just, just turned twenty-one. The bomb aimer was also early thirties and, um, the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator were quite young, um, mid mid-twenties I suppose but I got on very well with them.
TO: Did, were you, were you allowed to be friends with the — sorry, what was your rank?
HK: Rank? At the time I was just a sergeant, then flight sergeant and eventually warrant officer.
TO: Were there any rules about who you could be friends with?
HK: No, not, not really. I went about with some of the crew, yes. Of course though we were kept separate at the station, the officers and the NCOs separate.
TO: Was there ever any friction between the crew of the bomber?
HK: Not as far as I was concerned no. Never heard any.
TO: What did you think of Arthur Harris?
HK: I think he was just the man for the job at the time, yes.
TO: And, er, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
HK: Oh well, they — fortunately we didn’t have much of a contact with them. On our first, very first operation we were coming back and the rear gunner suddenly shouted to corkscrew and there was a plane. It was a twin-engine plane coming up behind and it let off a burst, and one bullet went through the rear turret and went through the rear gunner’s clothing and cut off his heating supply, which he was very aggrieved because it got very cold but we got back safely. The attacking aircraft I saw over— overtook us as we dived on the corkscrew and we never saw it again. So that was really a sort of a foretaste of what could have come but we were quite fortunate. We never saw any single or twin-engine aircraft again.
TO: And how do you feel about the Churchill deciding to order the bombing of Germany?
HK: How about —
TO: Churchill ordering Germany to be bombed?
HK: Well, I think it was war-time. I must say that in all our briefing we were all briefed to bomb military targets, um, not just towns, but at the time the accuracy of bombing was such that towns were destroyed, um, acc— well, not accidently, but I think the powers that be knew what was going on but, um, as I said we, we were briefed to bomb targets.
TO: I’ve, I’ve, er, I read, listened to an interview with Harris where he defended the tactics he used and he says that anyone who wants to criticise him for ordering the bombing of towns has never looked out of a window because if they had done they would know the cloud conditions over Europe means you can’t hit individual targets.
HK: That’s right, yeah.
TO: And were there ever any occasions where aircraft were damaged by the weather?
HK: By the weather?
TO: Like snow or thunderstorms?
HK: No, I don’t think so. Well, not as far as I was concerned, no.
TO: And, er, you just mentioned briefings. How did the briefings work?
HK: In what way?
TO: Well, how many people would you have in the room? Were you shown maps or photos?
HK: Yeah, well there was a big map at the front and with the target route marked. The pilot and the navigator had a separate briefing initially and then we all went together to the main briefing. I suppose, depending on the number of planes that were going, about seven crew, um, there must have been sort of getting on for seventy, possibly, in the main briefing, yeah. [clears throat] The commander got up and gave a brief talk and then the chief navigator and bomb— bomb— bombing instructor all gave a brief talk and we went for a pre-operational meal and got ready.
TO: What did you do to prepare yourselves for the mission?
HK: Well, just went, um, to the equipment room and got our parachutes and got dressed and waited around for the time to, to go off.
TO: And as you got on board the plane were you feeling nervous?
HK: Tiredness more than nervous, yes.
TO: And was there anyone who was actually showing any fear or were they all keeping it, keeping it to themselves?
HK: I think they were all keeping to themselves, yes.
TO: Do you know of anyone who during the war who wasn’t able — who just felt too nervous to get on board the plane?
HK: I don’t know of anyone, no. I knew there were people who decided they couldn’t go on but they were got off the stations as quickly as they could.
TO: So, if you can please could you describe your first ever mission over German?
HK: Well, as I said the first ever mission was the one in which we got shot at but survived that. The, er, worst trip was on the VI storage sites in France. This was a daylight raid and the mid upper gunner said, ‘There’s a Lanc immediately above us just opened his bomb doors.’ But before we could do anything we felt two thumps and one of the bombs went through the port wing and took away the port undercarriage and so I shut down the engine on that side because it was immediately behind the engine and, er, we came home on three engines and landed but our pilot decided to land on the grass runway, which we did, and again no one was hurt.
TO: Were you worried the plane would crash when the —
HK: Oh yes, yes. It came down. Our pilot was very successful in landing it. We did a belly landing because we lost all the hydraulics. We couldn’t get the other undercarriage down, couldn’t use the flaps on it. We just had to come in but, um, yeah, we were quite fortunate.
TO: And incidents like that ever — after that incident, were you reluctant to go on more missions?
HK: No, no, no. It was just a job.
TO: So, you mentioned that — was it VIs you were bombing?
HK: Yes, the VI storage sites, yes.
TO: Sorry can you describe what they are? I’m not familiar with them.
HK: The VI, the Doodlebugs, yes. They had storage places for them. This was at Trossy Saint Maximin. I don’t know where that is now but it’s in France somewhere.
TO: And what kind of pay load would the, would your Lancaster carry?
HK: Well, initially it was, er, thousand pounders and the incendiaries and then when we went to Pathfinders it was — we dropped flares initially to light up the target area as well as high explosives.
TO: Do you remember what kind of military targets you were generally after?
HK: What, um — the canal, Dortmund-Ems [?] canal, railway sidings, bridges, harbours, all sorts of things.
TO: And did you ever hear how, how successful your missions had been?
HK: Well, they did display photographs afterwards so we could see. I — definitely some of them were definitely successful. But, um, I don’t remember a lot about it, no.
TO: OK. So, was your first raid over Germany in 1943?
HK: No. ’44.
TO: OK and had you heard about the thousand bomber raids that —
HK: Yes. I had, had read about them, yes.
TO: And how many planes would generally accompany your Lancaster?
HK: I think it depended a lot, um, possibly upwards twenty, fifty, possibly a hundred. I, I don’t really know.
TO: Was there, were there any points on board a mission where you could relax to a degree?
HK: Well, we relaxed to a degree once we were on the North Sea on the way home but, um, we still had to keep a look-out. But, er, we didn’t really relax until we’d landed.
TO: And what was the procedure for coming into land?
HK: We had to call up the station and were given directions as to what height to circle and sort of gradually come down and then told we could go into land.
TO: Were landings scary at all?
HK: No, I don’t think so. I don’t recall.
TO: So, the incident where you mentioned with the — where had to shut down the engines, could, did you have control, does that mean you had control over the engines as you were the engineer?
HK: Yeah, it was, yes. I, I’m not sure I got the order to shut it down but I did it anyway because as the bomber had sort of taken all the bits behind the engine I thought there was a danger of petrol coming and catching fire and so that’s why I shut it down.
TO: But was the rest of the aircraft still working fine?
HK: It was, yes, yes. As I said we’d lost all the hydraulics. We couldn’t operate the flaps or what was left of the undercarriage but, um, the pilot did a good job.
TO: So, how many people would you normally have aboard the bomber?
HK: Seven altogether.
TO: And can you describe the conditions in general aboard the bomber?
HK: There wasn’t a lot of room I know that. Yes, well we had to get from the door up to the front of the aircraft, over the main spar and, er, but once we were in position it was quite OK.
TO: And how was morale in general amongst the crew?
HK: Generally pretty good, yes, yeah.
TO: And did your squadron suffer heavy losses?
HK: Occasionally yes, yes. I can’t recall any particular case but we did lose certainly some.
TO: Did you hear much about the American bombing of Germany?
HK: I didn’t hear much about it, no.
TO: And did the, your friends in the plane, did they talk much about their lives at home?
HK: Which, the friends?
TO: Your fellow crew members on the plane?
HK: Not a lot, no, no.
TO: And did the Lancasters get new bombs as the war went on?
HK: Sorry, did —
TO: Did the Lancasters get new bombs as the war went on?
HK: I suppose so. I don’t really know.
TO: And, er, were there any — do you remember any occasions where you were over major German cities?
HK: I remember going to Munich and Hamburg a number of times. We never went to Berlin but, er, yes. I don’t really remember much about that.
TO: Was there heavy anti-aircraft fire?
HK: Oh, plenty, yes. We could see them exploding in the air, yes.
TO: Did they ever come near the plane?
HK: We were fortunate. We didn’t have a lot of damage. We did have some shrapnel damage but not a lot, no.
TO: You mentioned was it the tail gunner who got the heating supply cut off? Did he seem traumatised at all by that?
HK: I don’t think he was traumatised but, er, he certainly remembered it because, um, when my wife and I went to Perth in Australia where he lived, we managed to meet him, he was telling my wife about it. He was most aggrieved about the heating supply going off [laugh].
TO: Was his reaction to it pretty normal?
HK: I think so, yes.
TO: And I’m sorry to ask this but do you know of anyone who died during the raids?
HK: During the Blitz, yes, distant, well, distant friends of my parents moved to a place. I lived in Kilburn initially and then moved to, um, a place near Barking and then one of the girls who was my age, um, was out doing fire watching or something but she was killed and, er, the others, one of the other sisters was wounded but I don’t know anyone else really close.
TO: Did you know anyone who, anyone in RAF who died on raids over Germany?
HK: Yes, yes, quite a number from the squadron we were on, yes.
TO: Did you ever talk about them?
HK: Not a lot, no. I remember we had two people from Ireland. One was a young chap, probably my age, and the other was a bit older and the older man was on his last mission, got shot down and killed, and this young chap was really upset about that. But, um, I don’t remember much about anyone else.
TO: And did you hear about the attack on the Ruhr dams?
HK: Heard about them, yes, yes.
TO: Did that have much effect on morale?
HK: I think it probably did but we were quite, um, happy that they had done it but we didn’t know a lot about it at the time.
TO: Do you think the raid was successful? [bleep sound]
HK: It was successful I think, yes.
TO: And were there any occasions when your squadron dropped leaflets?
HK: I can’t recall dropping actual leaflets, no. We did drop the window over — you’ve heard about that. Yes, but I don’t remember about leaflets, no.
TO: Can you please describe what the procedure was for deploying window.
HK: Well, there was the chutes near where I was and it was just unpacking the, er, packets and dropping them sort of shortly before went into Germany. But, er, I don’t think we had them all that much.
TO: Do you think window was effective?
HK: I think it probably was, well initially anyway. Later on I don’t know. There was a chute next to my position where I could drop them through.
TO: So it was your duty and not the bomb aimer?
HK: Yes.
TO: Can you explain how, what impact window had on the Germans?
HK: Well, initially it upset their radar quite a bit but then eventually they got used to it and I think that was probably why we stopped.
TO: I’m not sure if you’re aware but I think that just before Hamburg when they first used window Germany actually had developed the same thing but didn’t want to used it on Britain in case Britain used it on Germany. So both sides had window but both sides didn’t want to use it. [slight laughter] And you mentioned you only saw that twin-engine plane on that one occasion, did you ever see other German planes?
HK: In the distance, yes, yes, or near a target we saw a couple way below us. I don’t remember seeing any, any more, no.
TO: When you saw them were you worried that they would come near you?
HK: Was I what?
TO: When you saw the planes below you were you worried that they would come and attack?
HK: Well, they were well below us. I, I don’t know what they were doing but they were coming cross-wise but, um, two of them together, but whether they were after a particular target or not I don’t know.
TO: And were you sat in the cockpit the whole time?
HK: Yes, well mainly, yes.
TO: What would you do if you had to move around the bomber?
HK: Well, we had portable oxygen bottles we had to take. I did have to go back to the rear gunner once because his, um, the fluid was leaking from his supply line that operated the turret. I managed to put one of these circuits round because it, it had come off the supply, but he had to be very careful ultimate.
TO: Can you describe what kind of equipment you — sorry, what kind of clothes would you wear on board the bomber?
HK: A very thick jumper, um, some form of outer coat of some sort. I don’t really remember. Then a Mae West. I remember it was very bulky getting through the aircraft at the time.
TO: And did you wear an oxygen mask at all times?
HK: Yes. Pretty well all the time, yes. [cough]
TO: And where did you keep the parachutes?
HK: The parachutes. Well, my parachute was stored just behind me. The pilot had a, er, sit-on one as did the rear gunner I think. The rest of the crew had the parachutes as near as they could get them.
TO: And did the Lancaster have escape hatches?
HK: Yes, yes. There was one by the bomb aimer down in the front and then there was the door at the back and hatches in the roof.
TO: Were you ever told what to do it you ever had to bail out?
HK: Well, yes. We had to practice getting out.
TO: How did that practice work?
HK: Well it wasn’t in the air. It was on the ground, just getting through the front hatch.
TO: Were you ever worried about being shot down?
HK: I can’t say that I was particularly worried, no?
TO: And what kind of instruments did you have in front of you when you were sat in the cockpit?
HK: Well, the instruments at the side were the oil pressures and temperatures etcetera. In the front you had the normal — you know, I can’t really remember. I know we had the, um, all the knobs for pressing to cut off the engines but I wasn’t so much concerned with the flight controls as the engine temperatures and pressures that was at the side.
TO: Can you remember what would happen aboard the plane when you reached the targets and had to drop the bombs?
HK: Well, the bomb aimer gave directions and, er, and had to fly straight and level for a certain length of time and then he said, ‘Bombs gone.’ And immediately closed the bomb doors and got off as quickly as we could.
TO: Did your Lancaster ever carry a cookie?
HK: That’s the four thousand pound. Yes, I think it did on occasions but I can’t really remember now.
TO: Could you actually feel the bombs leaving the plane?
HK: Did —
TO: Could you feel the bombs leaving the plane?
HK: Oh, well when they were dropped yes. We did sort of go up quite suddenly.
TO: And were there any times when engines, when, not when damaged but when the engines just malfunctioned without warning?
HK: No, no. The engines were pretty good on the whole, yes.
TO: Merlins weren’t they?
HK: Merlins yes.
TO: [unclear] And did you ever go on — were your missions mainly at night?
HK: Mainly at night although we did do some daylight ones. These were mainly, as I said, over the storage sites of — in France.
TO: Did you prefer daylight or night missions?
HK: I think night because we couldn’t see what was going on.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you?
HK: Yes, we could especially when we were doing dropping the flares, yes.
TO: And can you explain, can you explain what the, how the other Pathfinder missions worked?
HK: Yes, there was Flare Force 1, which was — went out early when the bombing was due to start and we dropped flares then, er, if necessary, the master bomber called out for more flares and then there was the Flare Force 2 which was sort of circling around and then came in and dropped the other flares, and that’s really mainly what I can remember.
TO: When did they actually invent the Pathfinders, if you like?
HK: I think it came into force in 1942 because, um, they were worried about the, er, the bombing wasn’t very accurate at the time and, er, I think it did improve with the Pathfinders.
TO: So just to make sure I’ve got this right, the Pathfinders dropped the flares and the other main bombers would follow the flares?
HK: That’s right, yes.
TO: And was Pathfinding just as dangerous as other bombing?
HK: I think it was but we didn’t know much about it at the time.
TO: I don’t know if you can answer this question but how long did the missions tend to last, usually?
HK: From about five hours up to about ten depending on where the target was.
TO: How far into Germany would you tend to go?
HK: I think the furthest was a place called — I’ve got the, er, name of the place here.
TO: Do you want me to get it? Shall I get it? [background noises]
HK: No. [background noises] Yes, Trondheim in Norway but I don’t remember what the target was? That was ten hours.
TO: Would that have been the Tirpitz? The Tirpitz?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Would that have been the battleship, Tirpitz?
HK: Yes. Yes.
TO: Because that was around Trondheim or Tromso or something when it was sunk by 617 Squadron I think when they were dropping Barnes Wallis’s tallboys.
HK: Yes, yes. I think that was the longest one, ten hours.
TO: So, so were you on a pathfinding mission for the Tirpitz do you think?
HK: Yes. I, I don’t really remember what we were doing over Trondheim.
TO: I could be entirely wrong when I say the Tirpitz but I know that the RAF did go after it and finally got it in November 1944 so, so I don’t know if that’s adds up or — did you hear about the sinking of the Tirpitz though?
HK: Yes, I heard about it, yes.
TO: And do you feel glad to have had a role in it be destroyed?
HK: I, I don’t remember much about that raid, no. I think we had to go to Scotland and refuel before we took off but I don’t, don’t remember much about it.
TO: And what do you think about the bombing of Hamburg in 1943?
HK: We didn’t hear much about it at the time, no, so I can’t really say.
TO: And what about the bombing of Berlin?
HK: Well, there again I said we never went to Berlin so there again I can’t really say.
TO: And what about Dresden?
HK: Well, Dresden we were briefed to bomb the railway sidings. There, there was supposed to be a lot of German concentrations ready to go to the Eastern Front, er, which was what we did. We didn’t really know at the time how the town was devastated.
TO: Were you still on Pathfinders at that point?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Were you still on Pathfinders at that point?
HK: Oh yes, yes.
TO: So did Pathfinders actually carry bombs or just flares?
HK: We did carry bombs as well, yes.
TO: And were some cities more heavily defended than others?
HK: Yes. Those in the Ruhr were quite heavily defended, yes. Others not so much.
TO: Was Dresden heavily defended?
HK: That I can’t remember. I don’t think it was, no.
TO: When, was the, was the, was the AK 88 the main anti-aircraft weapon the Germans have?
HK: Yes.
TO: Were the crews afraid of it or was the firing generally inaccurate?
HK: I don’t know that we thought about it all that much and just hoped it didn’t get too close.
TO: Did you ever — I know you were at night but could you ever actually make out other RAF bombers nearby?
HK: Not usually, now and again, yes, we saw — yes. Some got very close.
TO: Was that — you probably don’t know but was the, the bomb aimer or pilot of that was above you when it bumped into the wing, do you think they would have been reprimanded for what happened?
HK: I don’t think they would have known because the bomb aimer would have been looking forward. I don’t suppose they realised what was happening but we never found out who it was.
TO: Would you hold it against them if you found out then?
HK: It was just one of those things. I don’t think they — well they obviously didn’t do it on purpose.
TO: How much do you think a Lancaster could take and still get home?
HK: Quite a bit, yes. I have pictures of the hole in the Lancaster the bomb went through if you would like to see it?
TO: We can see that later. Can we see that later? I’d love to see that. And ss the war went on did you, did you think the bombing campaign was being successful.
HK: I think, as far as I was concerned I thought it was, yes.
TO: And was there anyone claiming that the tactics weren’t working?
HK: I didn’t hear any, no.
TO: And, this is a strange question probably but when you’re, or not when you’re on missions but when you’re just sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft, did you ever get the chance just to admire the view down below?
HK: Yes, um, on one of the missions to Munich we were briefed to fly over the Alps and it was moonlight and that was a sight to see I must admit and, er, when we went to some of the eastern European count— towns we had to fly over Sweden, which was all lit up, and that was a sight to see as well. They did, well, we were told they would shoot at us but not to be too near. I don’t think anyone was shot down over Sweden.
TO: My, the navigator I mentioned earlier he mentioned that there was a crew of his that used to fly over Switzerland and said the Swiss would fire anti-aircraft guns but they would deliberately fire them too far away so —
HK: I think that was the same with Sweden, yeah.
TO: Was that strange to see towns that were lit rather than in black-out?
HK: Yes, it was certainly a sight to see [laugh].
TO: And did your plane, did the navigator, or not necessarily the navigator, but did your plane ever get lost, as in not sure where they were going?
HK: No, I don’t think so, no. I don’t recall that.
TO: So, again there was a pilot whose plane got lost because the navigation equipment got broken or something. Was it quite cold on board the plane?
HK: It wasn’t too bad where we were up near the front but it got cold further back but the mid gunner and the rear gunner had a heated suit but yes it was pretty cold back there.
TO: Do you know any Lancaster gunners who successfully shot down fighters?
HK: No, I don’t know any definitely, no.
TO: Do you think they were much use against fighters?
HK: I think so, probably helpful in, in keeping the fighters away, even if they were just looking out.
TO: Did you carry any food aboard the plane with you?
HK: Yes we had some rations. On the long, long operations but I don’t remember much about what we had except they were — we did have tins of juice, er, vacuum flask of coffee, some food of some sort but I don’t remember what it was.
TO: Do you remember if anyone had a firearm aboard the plane?
HK: No.
TO: And were you ever given instruction on how to evade capture if you were shot down?
HK: Oh, we did had some instruction, yes. Try and keep low and if we were over a country other than Germany trying to get hold of some local people if we could.
TO: Did anyone on board the plane actually speak German?
HK: Not as far as I know, no.
TO: How many missions did you go on during the war?
HK: Forty-four altogether.
TO: Was that a lot by RAF standards?
HK: Well, with the Pathfinders the normal tour was forty-four. You did the normal thirty and then there was another fifteen so we were one short of the total.
TO: How often would you go on a mission would you say?
HK: Sometimes it might be two or three times in a week. Other times it might be sort of a few weeks before we went on an operation, depending possibly on the weather or the targets, I don’t know.
TO: When you were on bombing raids could you ever see the fires below?
HK: I remember seeing when we were over some sort of harbour. I don’t know where it was. I saw one of the ships that appeared to be burning but it might have been a smokescreen. But apart from that I, I don’t remember because, er, we were usually the first in and then away.
TO: So, when, when you did go on missions were you told to — were you generally aiming as you said earlier only for certain targets, like the railways?
HK: Yes, we were always, um, given a briefing like that, not just a town, but definitely some sort of target.
TO: And was there anyone in the crew who just deliberately didn’t pay attention in the briefings?
HK: I can’t say that I know, no.
TO: Because I was just thinking well that if a gunner was at a briefing they probably thought it doesn’t matter what I’m doing. I’ve just got to shoot at the planes.
HK: I suppose they were.
TO: I don’t know.
HK: I suppose the gunners were at the briefings. I can’t remember.
TO: That’s just speculation by me. They might have been very interested but, sorry, it’s just that I think that’s what I would have done if I was a gunner. And what kind of entertainment did you have in the squadron?
HK: In the squadron? I can’t say that I remember much about any entertainment [slight laugh] at all, no. I suppose there must have been some but, no, it’s not something I remember.
TO: Did you ever go out to pubs or dances?
HK: The crew weren’t very, er, pub-minded and neither was I. We did go on some outings, um, some of the crew together. When we were doing the training for Pathfinders we went into Cambridge and out there. In truth there we had more interest in museums, which suited me, yes.
TO: Which museums did you like?
HK: I don’t remember now [laugh] but I remember going to some and — yes.
TO: I was recently in a few museums myself and looking round the Lancaster they have, or rather the Lancaster cabin, that they have at the, in the Imperial War Museum. I think they put it back as far as the navigator’s positon so you can, you can see into where everyone was sitting, sort of thing.
HK: Oh yeah.
TO: And other than the other ones you’ve mentioned to me already were there other missions that you remember very clearly?
HK: I think I’ve told you the ones that, er, I really remember but, um, I can’t say that I remember any others. We were quite fortunate really over all.
TO: You mentioned earlier on that — was it a gunner? One of the gunners shouted, ‘Corkscrew,’ when the plane, the fighter arrived. What kind of basic manoeuvres did the planes have?
HK: Well, we immediately dived and up and around and that’s why it’s called a corkscrew and, anyway we dived in one direction and up in another and so on but, er, we didn’t have to do that much and, as I said, the plane overshot us and —
TO: I remember reading I think that even though the Stirling wasn’t as good as a Lancaster it was decent at turning or something when it came to manoeuvres.
HK: It was too heavy I think.
TO: It was quite good at climbing but wasn’t good at turning or something.
HK: Oh yeah.
TO: Were you ever — was there any time when they brought in new equipment and you were confused by it?
HK: Yes. We had some new equipment, some cathode ray tubes, um, which the bomb aimer used to sit next to the navigator and assist him with the navigating and, er, that was towards the end of the war and, um, I was doing the bomb aiming then.
TO: So, what did you do as a bomb aimer?
HK: Well, the — I merely had to go down into the bay and press the tips when the graticule showed the marker but the bombs were all pre-set to go off at a particular time, um, but that was all done by the bomb aimer. He set up the equipment initially and all I had to do was press the tip when the target came into view.
TO: Was that to drop, release the bombs then?
HK: Yes.
TO: OK and did you do that often?
HK: I did about four or five times towards the end of the war, yes.
TO: And did you find out roughly how much damage the raids were causing?
HK: No, not really, no. We did have pictures taken by the later aircraft going over but I can’t say that I recall.
TO: And was there ever any occasions where your plane had to return early before it reached the target?
HK: No, apart from the fact that once we were all recalled because the target had been overrun by our troops so, um, but no, we, we carried on although I said once when we had the intercom equipment went the — we were told not to use it because the, the rear gunner, pilot were in contact but it was too weak to let anyone else but we decided to carry on anyway.
TO: So, how did the, er, communication work aboard the aircraft?
HK: Well, we had the speakers in the, er, speakers in the helmets plus microphones and you had to switch on the microphone if you wanted to speak. That’s all, pretty well.
TO: Was it very noisy aboard those planes?
HK: It was very noisy, yes, yes. So when we didn’t have the intercom it meant really shouting at the pilot.
TO: Was the noise mainly from the engines?
HK: Yeah.
TO: Were there any other occasions when you went to a target and found it was too cloudy to see the city?
HK: That I can’t really recall now, no.
TO: So, just going back, I’m keen to go back this one, the one over France with the VIs, did you actually get the chance to drop your [emphasis] bombs at the time?
HK: Yes. We did drop them, yep.
TO: So, so if I get this right. So even though you had a hole in the wing you were still able to go on with the mission or had you already dropped them?
HK: No, we hadn’t already dropped them. We were on the bombing run and we did actually drop them but, er, I don’t remember much about it, no.
TO: That’s fine, fine.
HK: I know we had to and I was watching out of the — because in case the wing was moving up and down more than it should but, er, fortunately we didn’t have to — if it had gone [laugh] we wouldn’t have done anything about it anyway.
TO: Would the, er, the pilot of the plane, would he ever be speaking to other aircraft in the squadron?
HK: Would he be?
TO: On the radio, would he ever speak to other aircraft?
HK: I don’t think so. Not generally no, no, I wouldn’t think so, no?
TO: Was it possible to communicate with them?
HK: It would be possible I think [unclear] had the necessary permission to do so. I don’t think it was normal, no.
TO: And did you ever attack coastal targets?
HK: Yes but I don’t remember where but I know we did have some, er, harbours and shipping there.
TO: What did you think of the — I know you weren’t on it — but what did you think of bombers like the Halifax?
HK: Well, some people that, er, flew the Halifax thought they were OK but I, I don’t think they had the — I don’t think they were as good as the Lancaster anyway but it is a matter of opinion.
TO: I do remember reading that a Lanc, a Halifax couldn’t carry a cookie because they didn’t have the space.
HK: Couldn’t carry them because of the load, no.
TO: So, er, did you hear about how — other events of the war, like the invasion of Normandy?
HK: Only on the radio I think. I don’t think we heard a lot internally about what went on.
TO: But when you heard that Normandy had been invaded did you think the war was in its final stages?
HK: Well, certainly thought so. We hadn’t actually started operations then. We were still at the Heavy Conversion Unit when we heard all the planes going over one night and, er, we realised what it was, yes.
TO: So, did you ever drop bombs around Normandy?
HK: Drop bombs?
TO: Around Normandy to help with the invasion?
HK: Oh yes, yes, yes.
TO: Was that area less heavily defended than Germany? Was there less anti-aircraft fire in Normandy than Germany?
HK: Oh yes, less, definitely less.
TO: And did you hear of events like Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
HK: Heard about it only on the news.
TO: And do, did you ever hear about other cases that happened where, where planes got damaged by overhead bombs?
HK: Not at the time. Although I believe it did happen on occasions.
TO: I know it happened to William Read, one of the VCs in Bomber Command, I think on a Norway mission or something.
HK: Yeah.
TO: And were there, was there anyone you know in your squadron who was shot down and became a prisoner?
HK: I didn’t know of anyone, no.
TO: And at the time of the war were you aware that Bomber Command had a fifty per cent casualty rate?
HK: Bomber Command?
TO: Had a fifty per cent casualty rate?
HK: No. We didn’t know at the time, no.
TO: This is a slightly odd question but if had you known at the time would you have volunteered for the Air Force?
HK: Maybe not but, er, once I was in — yes, it, it became just a job. I didn’t really didn’t take much notice. We didn’t hear of the, the losses at the time. I didn’t realise they were so great.
TO: Do you think they might have been keeping it quiet deliberately?
HK: I think they would, yes. I think that was definitely.
TO: Did you hear about, er, certain stories about the war and just dismissed them as propaganda?
HK: Yes, I’m not sure. I don’t remember any, no.
TO: And was there, was there a, a certain type of single-engine German fighter that was very feared by the crew?
HK: Oh, the Messerschmitt but, um, I didn’t think we were worried one way or the other, no.
TO: [background noise] So I’m just seeing which ones are nice. I’m just seeing which ones are nicer.
HK: [slight laugh] Thanks.
TO: Did you ever regret joining the Air Force?
HK: No. No. It was, in a way it was a university to me.
TO: And when, when you joined the Air Force was it possible, did you get a choice as to what duty, whether you went to Bomber Command or Fighter Command?
HK: It would have been Bomber Command, yes. As I say, when I was called up initially I was trained as a flight mechanic and, er, it was mainly for the Bomber Command.
TO: Do you remember when you receiv— received your call-up papers?
HK: Well, I only vaguely remember, yeah.
TO: And do you think there was a reason why, do you think there might have been a certain reason why you were put in the RAF and not the Army?
HK: I don’t know whether it was the education at the time. I don’t know. It may have had something to do with it, yes.
TO: Do you think you were properly trained enough before you were sent on missions?
HK: I think so. We had quite a good training, yes.
TO: And did you feel ready for war when it finished?
HK: Yes, I think so, yes.
TO: And were you ever stationed anywhere other than Britain?
HK: No, no.
TO: Do you know of anyone who was sent abroad?
HK: I know that some in [beep noise] [unclear] Association Branch were abroad. I didn’t know at the time but heard about it afterwards.
TO: And were you ever escorted by allied fighters?
HK: Only, only once I remember. That was when we were coming back on three engines. The rear gunner said, ‘There’s two single-engine aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter.’ But only a couple of seconds later he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires.’ And one of them did escort us back to the coast.
TO: Do you think maybe the pilot of that Spitfire could see the damage on your plane?
HK: Probably. Well, could see we’d only three engines going, yeah.
TO: I think there was one time, I was reading about it recently, during the war a German fighter actually saw a damaged American bomber and deliberately decided not to attack it because he could see how damaged it was and let it fly back. How did you actually feel about Germany during the war?
HK: Well, we knew it was the enemy and we had to do what we were instructed to do. I didn’t really think much about it at the time.
TO: Did you ever feel animosity against the German people?
HK: No. I can’t say that I did.
TO: Were any of your airfields ever attacked by German bombers?
HK: Not while I was there, no.
TO: And did any of the airfields ever run short of bombs or fuel?
HK: I don’t know, no.
TO: Sorry, I’m asking difficult questions here. And how many squadrons were you in during the war?
HK: Well, operational squadrons, two. That was 467 Squadron at Waddington and then 97 Squadron at Coningsby.
TO: Were there any times when actually your bombers were asked to attack German armies?
HK: The armies, German armies?
TO: Yeah.
HK: No, I don’t think so, no.
TO: And do you remember if the airfields you were stationed at had anti-aircraft defences?
HK: I think they must have done but I can’t say definitely.
TO: After Dunkirk were people in Britain afraid that Hitler would invade?
HK: I think they were yes, yes. Yes, we were very fortunate with the, er, the Battle of Britain fighters.
TO: Do you actually feel glad that you’d been put in the RAF?
HK: I what?
TO: Glad you were called up for the RAF?
HK: Glad it wasn’t the Army. Yes, certainly.
TO: Do you know anyone who was in or have any friends who were in the Army?
HK: I didn’t know anyone though definitely there were some from school who were in the Army, yes, joined the Army. Also at the time I think quite a few of them were called up for the RAF but I didn’t keep in contact.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
HK: Possibly what was known as the Battle of the Bulge was quite important at the time but I can’t say that I knew much about it at that time. I only read about it later.
TO: Was there heavy snow in Britain at that time?
HK: There was quite a lot of snow. We had to clear the aircraft and the runways.
TO: Did that ever effect operations much?
HK: I think it must have done to a certain extent but I don’t know details.
TO: OK. So what do you think was the best plane that the RAF had, in general?
HK: Well, as far as the Bomber Command was concerned the Lancaster but of course during the early part of the war the Hurricanes and Spitfires were the best.
TO: Did you know much about Wellington bombers?
HK: I didn’t know much about them, no.
TO: Was there ever any bullying in the Air Force?
HK: What?
TO: Bullying.
HK: What? Sorry I’m not with you.
TO: Was there any bullying in the Air force?
HK: Bullying? I didn’t know of any. No, I can’t say that I did.
TO: And were there particular songs the crew liked to sing at all?
HK: There was one that the bomb-aimer came out with. It was an Australian one presumably. I don’t know if you’ve heard it. It was about a — yes, something like “I put my finger in a woodpecker’s hole. The woodpecker said, ‘God bless my soul, take it out, take it out, remove it.’”And then it was, “Put it back, put it back, replace it” and it went on like that but I’ve never heard it before or since.
TO: I’m afraid I’ve never heard of it. [slight laugh] I guess I was lucky. Was most of your, was anyone else in the crew Australian?
HK: They were all Australian, yes.
TO: And did they, did anyone bring any kind of souvenirs aboard the plane, like personal possessions?
HK: I don’t know of any, no.
TO: Were you allowed to, I don’t know, decorate your own plane at all, that you could bring, I don’t know, if you wanted to bring an ornament with you could you bring that onto the plane?
HK: We could have done, yes, yes. The only things we were not allowed to take was money or things that could, um, easily tell the captors if we had to bail out where we’d come from, in case we had to try and have an identity of some other country.
TO: Were you ever told what you — did the RAF ever tell you how much information you could give if you were ever captured?
HK: Yeah. Name, rank and number. That was all we were supposed to say. [pause]
TO: So, when did the Lancaster actually become the main bomber of the RAF?
HK: It started in 1942 and it gradually built up from there so it was definitely the main plane of Bomber Command by the end of the war.
TO: What did you think of the bombers the Americans were using?
HK: Well, they — I think they did quite a good job but the aircraft weren’t any patch on the Lancasters. They couldn’t carry the, the load but, er, going as they did all alone at daytime I think they were very brave to do it.
TO: Did, er, did your squadron ever try and fly in formation when you were on missions?
HK: No, no formation. I know that when we went on to the daylight raids we were just more or less in a gaggle, not as a formation.
TO: Were there any ever any times when a bomb you were carrying failed to be released?
HK: Yes, there was one, which unfortunately got stuck up and we brought it back. We didn’t realise it at the time but no, no damage was done.
TO: So, what did they do with that bomb then?
HK: Oh, released it. It was up to the armourers. I think they released it and took it away. I don’t know what happened to it. It was a five hundred pounder apparently.
TO: Did you ever attack ships at all while they were at sea?
HK: Not at sea, no.
TO: [background noise] Sorry, you’ve answered a lot of my questions. I’m just trying to find some other ones. Did anyone, did the pilot try and tell anyone what would happen if he ever happened to get killed?
HK: Well, I was the one that had to take over it as necessary and I on training flights I was able to take over the controls and keep the plane more or less straight and level although the rear gunner said when I did it was more like a switchback [slight laugh]. But that was all.
TO: So, did the Lancaster have two steering columns or just one?
HK: No, we just had the one so I would have had to get the pilot out of the, his seat and get in myself.
TO: Was he allowed to teach you to do that?
HK: Yes.
TO: And would you have been able to land it at all?
HK: I don’t know [laugh]. I wasn’t taught how to do that.
TO: So, I’m just a bit puzzled why, why wouldn’t they teach you to land if you ever happened take over. It seems to kind of defeat the object of teaching —
HK: I think it was just that I had to try and keep it in the air while the rest of the crew got out.
TO: How did it feel to be in control of the plane though when you had it?
HK: I quite enjoyed it.
TO: Did you get a sense of pride doing that?
HK: Yes.
TO: What’s your best memory of your time during the war?
HK: I suppose the best memory was, um, when I heard that I was medically fit to fly.
TO: So, er, do you remember why they turned you down during your first medical test?
HK: I was slightly short sighted in one eye. At the time, um, that was quite important but it ceased to be important when I wanted to be a flight engineer, although as I ended up doing bomb aiming I don’t know. [laugh]
TO: Well did it ever, did your eyesight ever effect your performance?
HK: No, no. It wasn’t bad enough.
TO: Do you know whether the gunners had to have the same education as the other members of the aircraft?
HK: I don’t think they did, no. I’m sure they didn’t.
TO: Did you ever meet any famous people during the war as in senior commanders or leaders?
HK: I don’t remember, no.
TO: Did you listen to the radio very much?
HK: Quite a bit, yeah.
TO: And again, sorry for asking you this, but was the scariest thing that happened to you during the war?
HK: I think it was when the bombs came through the wing, yes.
TO: Did you think the plane was going to crash or did you think it could survive?
HK: I wasn’t sure whether the wing was going to fall off or not [slight laugh] but, er, so we were fortunate. Another few inches one way or the other it would have hit the front or rear spar.
TO: So, how far, how close to the fuselage was the hole?
HK: Well, it wasn’t very far away. It was the inner engine that got hit or just behind the inner engine. No, it couldn’t happen at a better place actually [slight laugh].
TO: And did it send a big shock wave through the aircraft when that happened?
HK: Well, certainly, yes. There was a big thump, yes.
TO: And when they said the Lancaster was overhead was everyone expecting a bomb?
HK: Well, we were expecting it but we didn’t have any time to do any manoeuvres. As soon as the mid-upper called out we heard the bumps. That was it.
TO: Did you think for a minute you might have to bail out?
HK: I thought that might be a possibility, yeah.
TO: And what about when you saw the German night fighter?
HK: Well, we were glad to see it disappear but, er, yes —
TO: Is there anything else you can add about that mission, about where you were going at the time?
HK: No. I can’t really remember.
TO: That’s fine. So, when — you mentioned as the flight engineer you might have to take over from the plane sometimes. Was it hard to learn how to take over or was it quite easy?
HK: No. We had training on the Link trainer so I knew what to do.
TO: So, did you volunteer for the Pathfinders or were you assigned?
HK: I heard after the war that the pilot, my pilot, had volunteered because he got extra pay for being — but whether that was true or not I don’t know but yes he volunteered first and we all agreed to go.
TO: Did you get extra pay for that?
HK: I think we did but I can’t remember that but I think we did.
TO: What was the average pay in the RAF?
HK: It was a few shillings a day I think. I don’t remember that, no. I know some people can remember these details but I don’t.
TO: That’s fine. And how do you feel about Japan and Germany today for the war?
HK: I think we should have lost the war [laugh] and we would have been better off than — yes. I don’t know.
TO: And why do you think that?
HK: Well, Germany and Japan seem to have done very well but—
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
HK: Probably wasn’t but I don’t know how things would have turned out if it —
TO: And what did you think of the memorial that they built in Green Park a few years ago?
HK: It’s a very good memorial, certainly. I wasn’t able to go up to the unveiling.
TO: They’re having a service in a couple of weekends there and going to be recording that as well. Did you hear about the holocaust?
HK: I can’t say I did during the war, no.
TO: And do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
HK: I certainly think so, yes. I think Harris was given a bad, was bad, er, treated badly. That was — everyone thought Dresden was his idea but in fact it came direct from Churchill originally.
TO: Did you ever happen to meet Harris after the war?
HK: No, no.
TO: And do you think the RAF played a critical role in Britain’s victory?
HK: Oh, definitely, yes.
TO: And do you think there was anything that happened to you during the war which affected you later in your life? [beeping sound]
HK: Oh, yes. I think the fact that, um, I did some technical training during my life in the RAF was — before I was called up I was working at the, er, an accounts department in Electrics Supply but after the war I wanted to do something more technical and the GEC were advertising for people in their, um, research laboratories in Wembley and I applied and joined and came a patent agent so, yes, it made quite a bit of difference.
TO: And what did you do in your career after that?
HK: Well I trained as — initially I got a science degree and did the patent office, patent agent examination and I actually stayed with the research laboratories, um, until I, my official retirement and then I went on a couple of days a week after that until they moved the whole thing to Chelmsford and I decided that was enough.
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what, what was the saddest thing you’d say that happened during the war?
HK: During the war? That I can’t really say. I suppose the saddest thing was, um, losing a very close cousin, who I was sort of brought up with, and caught diabetes and there wasn’t so much they could do about it at the time and she died. But that was during the war. It wasn’t anything to do with the war itself. I don’t know of anything connected with the war but it was so sad.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing the day the war ended?
HK: Yes. I was at, stationed at Coningsby, um, then we were sent home on leave, um, but the rest of the crew as they were all Australian were called back before me to be sent back to Australia, so I never really got a chance to say a proper goodbye, and it was only after the war when I went to Perth and saw the rear gunner’s name in the telephone directory that I got in touch with him. So, I don’t know if there’s anything else.
TO: So did everyone who were on that bomber meet again would you say?
HK: No, no.
TO: Did you get involved in any of the VE Day celebrations?
HK: No. I don’t remember any, no.
TO: Or did you listen to Churchill’s victory speech?
HK: I’m sure I did, yes, but I can’t remember it.
TO: Were you bothered by the fact that he didn’t mention Bomber Command?
HK: He what, sorry?
TO: In Churchill’s victory speech he didn’t mention Bomber Command.
HK: Oh yeah. I read about that afterwards, yes.
TO: But did that bother you when you heard the speech?
HK: Well, I can’t say I remember if I heard the speech. I must have missed it. I don’t know.
TO: And how do you feel today about your war-time service?
HK: Well, my particular service, I think I was quite fortunate and overall I had quite a reasonable time.
TO: Have you ever watched any films about the war?
HK: Some, certainly, yes.
TO: And what do you think of them?
HK: Some of them are quite good otherwise some aren’t.
TO: Any ones in particular that you liked?
HK: I think the one, the first one about “The Dambusters” was excellent, yes.
TO: And, er, do you think the atomic bombs were necessary against Japan?
HK: I think overall probably, yes, but if it had gone on we would have lost many more people, both Japanese and American and our country, so I suppose it, it was necessary. I think in a way it was a pity because it really put a shadow on nuclear reactors. I think if it hadn’t happened there wouldn’t have been quite an outcry on reactors that there is today.
TO: Were you involved in nuclear reactors after the war?
HK: Not directly but, um, the — our department was involved in patents for nuclear reactors and they did quite a bit of work.
TO: And, er, how do you feel about Britain’s involvement in events like Iraq and Afghanistan?
HK: In?
TO: In Afghanistan and Iraq?
HK: I think we probably should have kept out. I don’t think it really helps in any way. I just think it’s just made things worse.
TO: Is there anything you want to add at all about you war-time service?
HK: No, I don’t think so. I was quite fortunate overall and had quite a reasonable time.
TO: OK. Or is there anything you want to add which was important to you at the time which you‘ve not mentioned?
HK: No, I don’t think so, no.
TO: OK. Well, er, thank you very much for telling me about your experiences. It was really fascinating.
HK: I hope it’s not been a bit too boring. I couldn’t remember lots of things.
TO: It’s not boring at all. It’s amazing. No, no. What you could remember is amazing. Can I just, er, there is something I showed to another RAF veteran and you can either read yourself or if you want I can read it out for you now. This is a speech that Arthur Harris gave at an RAF reunion in 1977.
HK: Oh right.
TO: And he just basically talks about the role, basically pointing out, explaining what Bomber Command did and why it was so important now. If you like I can read it out but if you’d rather read it yourself out in your own time you can, whichever you prefer.
HK: Can I?
TO: Yes. You can read it out now if you want.
HK: Well, can I keep this?
TO: Of course. That’s why I bought it for you.
HK: Right, thank you.
TO: If you want to read it now you can or if you want me to read it out I can, whichever.
HK: Yeah. Well, I’d like to read it later.
TO: OK. OK. Right, thank you very much.
HK: Not at all.
TO: Sorry, I should have explained at the start, er, as an introduction that I’m supposed to do but because I was, because I was getting so many interviews done I forgot it. I just wanted to end by saying that we’ve recorded this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name’s Thomas Ozel and we were interviewing Mr Harold Kirby in London on the 10th of June 2016. Sorry, that’s the 11th of June. Thank you for this.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AKirbyHVA160611
Title
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Interview with Harold Kirby. Two
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:04:49 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Tom Ozel
Date
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2016-06-11
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Kirby grew up in London and worked in an accounts department before joining the Royal Air Force. He served as a fitter with 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook before remustering as a flight engineer. He flew two tours of operations with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons. He describes the Stirling that was used for training and also the Lancaster in which he flew on operations. He also describes the preparations before an operation and the procedure for landing. He explains how window and how flares were used by the Pathfinders. Harold gives an account of an incident where his Lancaster was damaged by another Lancaster dropping its bombs from above but otherwise says his crew were very fortunate. After the war, he worked as a patent agent until he retired.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
156 Squadron
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
briefing
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
military ethos
Pathfinders
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/PPennLE1701.1.jpg
824abb2c2b7f455b204aa46be93d7f9a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/316/3473/APennL170622.1.mp3
0620d580b7438a89e75829dd538816b6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Penn, Lawrence
L Penn
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Lawrence Penn (b. 1922, 413929 Royal Australian Air Force) his log book and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron part of the Second Tactical Air Force.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Lawrence Penn and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Penn, L
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MaCartney, the interviewee is Lawrence or Lorrie Penn. The interview is taking place at Mr Penn’s home in Mosman, New South Wales, on the 22nd of June 2017. Also present is Mister Penn’s wife June. Ok, Lorrie, I’ve look at some details on your background and I see you were born in Cremorne.
LP: Yes, I do.
JM: And indeed as we were having a little chat to start with before we started the interview, you mentioned you were born in Cremorne,
LP: Cremorne, yes.
JM: In Murdock Street,
LP; In Murdock Street.
JM: In what street, yes, so that was obviously at home
LP: It was a proper hospital in those days but not now of course
JM: A proper hospital back then, was it? Right. No, ok, and that was in December 1922?
LP: That’s right. 27th, two days after Christmas, it was a dreadful time to be born.
JM: Indeed, indeed. And, did the family live round here so that you then went to school around here?
LP: Yes, I did at Cremorne initially then we, after about six years of age we went to Adelaide and then we went up to Cairns and then down to Coffs Harbour so I had, it was after I came back from Coffs Harbour that I had a couple of years at Trinity College and then went to Shore for three or four years,
JM: Right.
LP: And finished my education there.
JM: Finished at Shore, ok. In moving around, quite a bit of the countryside there in just what you’ve said, how did you find different parts of Australia? Do you have any particular memories that stand out for you in your early years of going around the countryside at all?
LP: Oh, I enjoyed it all, perhaps that’s where I gave them my interest in overseas, finding out what was going on overseas.
JM: And did you keep any friends at all down the track from those early years or?
LP: No, probably, as a country down from the other states but from Shore School lifelong.
JM: Right, yes.
LP: Just about, I outlasted them all I was [unclear]
JM: Yes, I guess that would be getting almost to the case now and so you did your intermediate at Shore.
LP: Yes, I did.
JM: And then
LP: And then left Shore and went into a bank as a bank clerk there until the war began.
JM: Right. Did you do leaving certificate as well?
LP: No, no.
JM: Just intermediate.
LP: Just intermediate.
JM: Intermediate, right, ok. And so you left, well before we go into your banking role, were you involved in sports or?
LP: Usual things.
JM: School.
LP: Yeah. Football and cricket. The main, think I did a bit of tennis.
JM: Bit of tennis, yeah. And around where were you living with you going to Shore were you sort of in this area or?
LP: Yeah, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: Still Cremorne, Southern Street. Cremorne.
JM: Cremorne, ok. And so, did you then go to scouts or Air League or anything?
LP: In the school cadets, school cadets and after I left school I didn’t join, I just did tennis club after school.
JM: Tennis club, right, ok. And then into, let me think, so then you would have been probably started work being then in the Depression years.
LP: It’s been about 1938, ’37, ’38 when I left school and went straight into getting a job with the bank.
JM: Ah, yes, that’s true, that’s true, yes, so you were still at school in the Depression years potentially.
LP: I was in Coffs Harbour I think during [unclear].
JM: Coffs Harbour, right. Ok.
LP: My father was a theatre manager.
JM: Oh, ok, so.
LP: That’s why we went from state to state virtually and then when he retired, he finished up writing The picture show man, his experience because his father was also started off producing, not producing films, but showing films all around the rural areas up the North Coast there.
JM: Right, right.
LP: And my dad wrote a résumé of what happened to his youth and so forth and they made a movie out of it, they called The Picture Show Man.
JM: That’s right, that’s right, indeed. Uhm, so that would have been, picture shows would have been very much a discretionary expenditure so with the Depression that would have been quite a tough going for your father.
LP: It was tough going, yes. He was educated mainly in Tamworth there, in Tamworth, lovely town up the North Coast.
JM: Indeed. So, then when you, the family, your father retired, then is that when you came back to Sydney?
LP: Yes, well, Dad entered the army when the war started out, entered the army as a private and finished up as a Major, going through Lieutenant Colonel when he was finally discharged and Dad had a bit of trouble, just trouble and he had, he was medically discharged then.
JM: Ok. And, so then you went into the bank when you left school?
LP: Yes.
JM: And which bank was that?
LP: It was called the English Scottish and Australian Bank then,
JM: Yes.
LP: But it’s the ANZ now.
JM: ANZ, yes, the Esanda, wasn’t it its original name, the Esanda?
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, that’s right. Ok, so, you were, whereabouts were you based in the bank? Were you in the city or just?
LP: The first job was at the Spit Junction.
JM: Spit Junction?
LP: Yes [laughs] Very handy.
JM: Oh, ok, very handy, very handy.
LP: And then I went to the hill office after a year and a bit, to King George Street in the city of Sydney and did a little bit of relieving going to different banks when they were on holiday, the South was on holidays. I wasn’t very high up in the bank at all.
JM: Oh, you were only fairly young at this stage, I mean, Goodness gracious!
LP: [laughs] But, no, it is a dreadful thing to say but it was a fortunate thing for me was that the war started really because it made such a, I wouldn’t have met June.
JP: No. [laughs]
JM: Well, I think there are a lot of
LP: Because I met June in New York in, June was a child evacuee from England and she was only seventeen when I met her and I was nineteen and I just got my wings in Canada and we went to New York on leave
JM: On leave, yes.
LP: And met her there. Well, she met me really, because she picked me out a crowd of
JP: I was having lunch in this Hotel Edison and they asked me, the management, who would I like from that group of airmen over there, who could just come and have lunch with us. And I looked at all the faces and I picked Lorrie.
JM: Oh my Goodness gracious!
JP: He was invited over to have lunch with us
JM: Oh my goodness!
JP: We were both [unclear] management.
LP: We had only about a week to leave in New York. Then I went over across to England on the Queen Elizabeth then and of course won the war [?] over there but of course we didn’t have any correspondence between us for two years. It was just by accident that I met June when they, [unclear] girls were brought back to England after being evacuated.
JM: Right. We will come to a bit more detail about that shortly let’s just, you’ve got a little bit of to, we’ve got to go from your, when you were with the bank and then the war started and so then you enlisted, in September ’41, I see,
LP: That’s right.
JM: So, where, at Bradfield Park, I can see this, so that’s the normal enlisting place for most people there?
LP: Yes.
JM: So, and you did nearly three months at Bradfield Park.
LP: That’s right.
JM: But perhaps before I go a bit further, what made, was there any particular factor that caused you to actually go into the, choose the Air Force to enlist into or?
LP: I was always interested in flying. I remember Dad showed me a free joyride trip to an aircraft that was doing some pleasure flights around Manly and we went up there and that
JM: Sparked your interest.
LP: Sparked my interest.
JM: So that would have been what, do you remember how old you were when that was? Fifteen or so? Maybe earlier?
LP: It would have been earlier than that.
JM: Earlier than that?
LP: It would be about ten, I would say.
JM: Oh my goodness! So that didn’t prompt you to join the Air League at all?
LP: No, because I was still in Shore, at the Shore Grammar School and in the cadets, the cadets were mainly interested in the uniforms and these rifles, they would take their rifles home and all that sort of thing.
JM: And did you do any sort of like officer training in the cadets or?
LP: Yes, but I didn’t advance [unclear], no.
JM: You didn’t advance. Ok. And so, you had, so when came time to join up, then obviously Air Force was going to be the one that you were going to.
LP: Yes, I was going, definitely wanted to join the Air Force.
JM: Right, ok. And so, off to Bradfield Park and then off to
LP: Narromine.
JM: Narromine for your Elementary Flying Training.
LP: That’s right. Went solo there.
JM: Yes.
LP: Twenty courses and there were fifty of us on twenty course and there was only two of us left.
JM: My goodness me, yes.
LP: And this, do you know Tony Vine at all?
JM: No, I don’t know Tony.
LP: Anyhow, he is an ex naval submarine commander actually and he does a lot of commentating on Anzac Day for the ABC over the year and he took an interest in me and he rounded up and got all the stories of the whole twenty, I will show you the book afterwards that he’s written, released that only a couple of months ago.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Down in Canberra.
JM: Right, very interesting, I’ll have a look at it afterwards, yeah. So, Narromine, then back to Bradfield Park for
LP: The Japanese just came in then.
JM: Ah, about 40, yes
LP: We were all ready to hop on the ship and go to San Francisco, the war came in, they didn’t know what to do with us at the time so we went back to Narromine.
JM: Narromine.
LP: Where we refreshed the course. Things got straight and out what was going to happen and we went back and joined the ship and went to San Francisco, as First Class passengers, wonderful [laughs].
JM: Yes. And you were actually in Sydney then when the Japanese came into the harbour?
LP: I think I was still in Narromine.
JM: Still in Narromine, right, ok.
LP: Yes, still in Narromine waiting the war, so.
JM: Right.
LP: With the Japanese.
JM: But when the submarines came into the harbour at [unclear], you weren’t in Sydney.
LP: I wasn’t here, still in Narromine, pretty sure, yes.
JM: Ok, so off you went to, uhm, to San Francisco and.
LP: Yes, and we went by train up to Vancouver, a lovely, quite an eye-opener how lovely it was that trip and then from Vancouver to Edmonton.
JM: Yes.
LP: And we were held there for oh, four to five weeks I think in Edmonton, Canada.
JM: Ah yes, about four weeks looking at the dates here in your logbook, here at the record of service, yes, it was 9th of May until the 6th of June.
LP: That’ll be right, yes, that’ll be right.
JM: So, so what were you doing, any training there in?
LP: No, no, we were just being held there to. We had the medical, the Canadians were very keen to get the medical condition of whatever arriving there so we had dental and all sort of things, x-rays and things like that. Sports.
JM: Yes, a bit of sports to keep you active, I suppose.
LP: Keep us fit, yes. Waiting on a posting to a service training school.
JM: Right.
LP: Which was Dauphin, Manitoba.
JM: Whereabouts?
LP: Dauphin was just north, northwest of Winnipeg.
JM: Right. And how, was that another train trip?
LP: Yes, it was. Over the Rockies and a wonderful trip.
JM: And that would have been quite an experience then to see some of that scenery.
LP: Oh, it was. It was then.
JM: Yeah.
LP: Jasper and up very, many thousand of feet we had to go through the Rockies to and then down on the plains, from then on east of there of course it was flatter than a pancake until you got to the East Coast of Canada pretty well.
JM: Yes, yes, and what training did you do at Dauphin?
LP: At Dauphin? That was a service training school, and that’s where I got my wings, we had to, we were there for [unclear] several months and it was quite hot in Canada in summer.
JM: Yes, that’s right, June through to almost the end of September, so, you’ve got peak summer conditions, so, I guess therefore it was not dissimilar to Australia in that regard.
LP: Yes, in that regard it was.
JM: And how, how did the training go over there, was there?
LP: Oh yes, It went very well,
JM: And there were Canadian instructors presumably [unclear]
LP: Yes, I had Canadian instructors, we were training on the [unclear] aircraft, twin-engine aircraft and very nice aircraft.
JM: Right, and so, you did, you were flying with the instructor and then finally I presume you did your solo flight to get your wings?
LP: Yes. That’s right.
JM: Yeah. And how was that experience? What was your?
LP: Ah, it was wonderful, it went very well, went very well.
JM: Good. And that completely confirmed for you then that you were doing what you wanted to do.
LP: Oh, just, they wanted to because I topped the flying amongst our group. Then they wanted to send me to Prince Edward Island to go onto Sunderland flying boats and I, cause I wanted to get onto Spitfires and I went and saw the CO and set my foot and he more or less agreed that, alright, we’ll take away the Prince Edward Island job and commission went with that too but when I went to the other, when I went to the other service training school, the commission didn’t go with that posting [unclear] but we were posted to the Saint John, to a near field, Pennfield Ridge it was called and that was near Saint John, near the East Coast of Canada onto Venturas.
JM: Right.
LP: Now, these Venturas were twin-engine, like a big Hudson aircraft.
JM: Right.
LP: And, they were a bit heavy handed [laughs], heavy to handle but did alright but in the meantime they were, can I go on to what happened to Venturas?
JM: Yes, you can.
LP: Because they started off on, in England they were sent across, on operations and the first sortie over the English Channel into France that was then [unclear] two boxes of six and one Ventura came back out of the tour. Now, what really happened was normally was daylight bombing and normally bombing between ten and fifteen thousand feet because we were after the V1 sites mainly then [unclear] hours but normally we had a fighter escort Spitfires and Hurricanes which would be up about twenty thousand, twenty five thousand feet looking after us but they, the escort didn’t turn up, so the German fighters had a pretty good
JM: Picnic.
LP: Pretty good go at the Venturas.
JM: Venturas
LP: And that’s why after we got to England we did a conversion onto Mitchells, B-25s,
JM: Right. Ok, so.
LP: We’re getting ahead of.
JM: We just try, I find it easier if we can sort of keep it in sequence in that way, bearing in mind sort of when other people are listening, you know, at other times, it makes it a little bit simpler for them. But that’s not say that if you suddenly think of something we can’t accommodate that because it’s better to get it all. But, so, the Venturas, so you were training on these Venturas and at Pennfield Ridge, and then, as well as that, you followed that on with some about a month and a bit at Yarmouth.
LP: That’s right, at Yarmouth, in, we had to cross the Bay of Fundy to go down to, Yarmouth was still in Canada. There is a Yarmouth in England too.
JM: Yes, that’s why
LP: That’s why my parents thought that’s we’re gone to.
JM: Yes, that’s why a bit, wanting to just clarify what that, yeah, so, there’s Yarmouth in Canada and so, what did you do down in Yarmouth, more Ventura training or?
LP: Yes, more Ventura training.
JM: Ventura training. So, did you actually crew up at this point?
LP: Yes, when we got to Pennfield Ridge we crewed up.
JM: You crewed up there. So, how many because I’m totally unfamiliar with the Ventura, how many were on your crew on a Ventura?
LP: I had to choose a pilot and an observer who was not a pilot, a navigator and bomb aimer. And wireless air gunner and straight gunner.
JM: So, in terms of a Ventura, is it like, did they have, was it like a mid-upper gunner or rear gunner or?
LP: Mid-upper gunner.
JM: A mid-upper gunner. Right, ok. And
LP: Oh, sorry, it was only the straight air gunner was on the Mitchell and he was on one of those gun positions [unclear] down below
JM: Oh, like, down below
LP: Down below and underneath
JM: A lower, right
LP: The Ventura didn’t, it only had the top turret.
JM: Top turret, right. So what did wireless operator run that as well as the radio?
LP: As a gunner
JM: As a gunner
LP: As a gunner, and
JM: Wireless
LP: Wireless man, too.
JM: Wireless, right, ok. So, you had one, two, three, four, five crew on your Ventura.
LP: Ehm, one, two, three, four, actually, three, four because we didn’t have the straight air gunner.
JM: So you had a pilot, observer, navigator
LP: Who was all, observer, navigator was all, all one
JM: All the one, ok. So, pilot, navigator, observer, bomb aimer and wireless air gunner.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes. Ok. And so, how did you go about your selection of your crew? Did
LP: They were all brought into the hall and we’d just say, would you like to come with me and you’d pick somebody if they were agreeable and that was it.
JM: And were they all, what nationalities were they?
LP: My observer, who was also the
JM: Navigator
LP: Navigator, was a New Zealander.
JM: Right.
LP: There’s with him and the straight air gunner, no, not the straight air gunner, the wireless air gunner
JM: Wireless.
LP: Was a Canadian
JM: Right. And bomb aimer?
LP: That was the observer’s job also. The observer was a navigator and bomb aimer.
JM: And what was he? Ah, he was New Zealander.
LP: He was a New Zealander and the wireless air gunner was a Canadian.
JM: And, so, that was your crew, you went then as a crew to Yarmouth.
LP: To Yarmouth.
JM: And did your additional training
LP: Yes.
JM: In Yarmouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: So then you got after that, any particular memories that, any particular experiences any of these training flights that stand out, any near misses or any interesting visit, interesting side trips as a result of [laughs]?
LP: Not really. I was lucky, the Venturas had the most powerful engine going at the time in the Air Force at two thousand horse power, a radial engine, and had a habit of catching on fire. Luckily I didn’t have that experience myself but we did a lot of formation flying at Yarmouth too, and we’d go out, ehm, select one doing the [unclear] for about half an hour and then change over so. The [unclear] Grant-Suttie was the captain of the leading aircraft I was formating on him and he had an engine failure and we were on a steep turn at the time and I, because he reduced speed because of the engine failure, I pulled off, I suppose I could so but our, my left wingtip hit his tail plane and my left wingtip came up like that, bent right up
JM: Bent right up
LP: Bent right up and of course when I landed and they asked about the other aircraft, the other aircraft, alright, I said, as far as I know, yes, Captain, I’m [unclear], he’s still ok, and I saw him land then and never got into any trouble, I don’t know whether he got into any trouble enough but
JM: But still the engine failed, I mean.
LP: The engine failed and it was down that they weren’t very good engines.
JM: Gosh, well that was an experience to
LP: Yeah, that was an experience.
JM: And again sort of required your resources to manage your way out of it, so.
LP: When you’re in a [unclear] like that and he wants to bank further because the engine fails
JM: So, probably more than forty-five degrees you’re talking about, judging by the position of your hands there, yes.
LP: Is very, I couldn’t do anything except try and sort of get my speed behind his, and we were very lucky that all this more or less still kept together and my wingtip hit his tail plane and, well, it squeezed up against, you say, because there wasn’t any big collision, we were so close anyhow.
JM: Close anyhow.
LP: So.
JM: Gosh! So, that was that experience and that was probably about the only one that you had.
LP: That’s the only one I had.
JP: Bird strike. The bird strike.
LP: Oh no. That’s way.
JM: That’s further down the track, is it? Ok.
LP: Way down the track. This is in the Air Force, I’m still training in the Air Force [laughs]
JM: We’re still, we’re back in Canada here. But whereabouts to sort of go to Halifax and uhm, I presume that’s probably but some of your experiences that’s at Yarmouth and then. So you moved both to Halifax and [unclear] and that was
LP: That was like a holding.
JM: Holding.
LP: Holding spot there and then we actually went by train down to New York
JM: Yes.
LP: To get on board the Queen Elizabeth. Right next door was the French one that was caught on fire.
JM: Fire.
LP: What was the name?
JP: Oh, that French ship. Yes, I remember that.
LP: About the same size as the Queen Elizabeth. Huge French.
JP: It wasn’t the Normandy?
LP: Normandy. That’s it! Good one! Is the Normandy, yes.
JM: Yes.
LP: It spend quite a long time in the New York wharf area.
JM: But when you went down to New York is when you had a week’s leave and when you.
LP: We had the weeks’ leave from Dauphin. That was where I did the [unclear]
JM: Oh, from Dauphin, ok, so whilst you were in Dauphin that had you the week’s leave, right.
LP: That’s right, isn’t it?
JP: Yes.
LP: From Dauphin.
JM: Dauphin, so
LP: [unclear] I got my wings, it wasn’t [unclear], no, because we didn’t have leave and we came before we went on board the Queen Elisabeth. Some memory?
JP: I can’t remember.
LP: You can’t remember, I can’t remember.
JM: No, that’s alright, well that’s
LP: Got in touch with you when I went to New York. No.
JM: No, so was probably around August or something that you had your leave in ’42, went down from Dauphin down to New York so
LP: I don’t think we were allowed so when we were embarking or anything like that.
JM: Right, ok, so that and how did you find your week in New York?
LP: Well, initially.
JM: Yes, that initial.
LP: With June.
JM: Yes, with June.
LP: Oh, we had a lovely time. We saw
JM: So, you met June at the beginning of the leave as opposed to
LP: Yes
JM: So, you had the whole week together basically
JP: I was just having lunch and he was the guest of management and I was guest of management.
JM: Guest of management, yes, no, but it was basically towards the, more as at the start of his leave so you then had a week, more or less a week together. Oh, that was wonderful.
LP: No, not all the time. But I went down to this hotel called [unclear] and the other one, he got his wings too, and we both went to this hotel Edison in New York because we could have two meals for the price of one [laughs]. And, oh, we were looking forward to it, we weren’t flush then.
JM: Oh, that’s right. Exactly, you were payed.
LP: And that’s when June sorted a group of airmen and said, oh, I’ll pick him.
JP: Pick him [laughs].
LP: So it’s all her fault.
JM: It’s all her fault, that’s right. And so, I guess, how long had you been in New York at that stage? June, you had some idea?
JP: Oh, I’d only been in New York probably about a year.
JM: A Year. But still at least you had some knowledge, say you were able to take
LP: You were fifteen, didn’t you?
JP: Fifteen, going, closer to sixteen.
LP: Ah, were you?
JP: Much closer to sixteen. Yes.
LP: June was about the, she was more of us in charge of the other girls going over
JP: That’s right.
LP: And she did three years, they been and she’s been living in New York about a year.
JM: A levels, you did your A levels.
JP: I did the leaving that took everybody four years, I did it in fifteen months.
JM: My Goodness me!
JP: And how I did it was that, where I was as a like a primary school but we had, the older ones, we had a separate cottage and this cottage, these lovely ladies would come and
LP: The Gool [?] Foundation
JP: The Gool [?] Foundation and they’d come and you know they talked me up when I wanted to do my homework for night now where was I? Uhm, what was I about to tell you?
JM: Well, we were just saying that you had, you’d been there about twelve months so that you had some idea about, you know, where to take Lorrie and
JP: Where to take Lorrie and everything and they just sort of got somehow round that we got in touch with each other
LP: When? After.
JP: I don’t know how we did it, whether it’s through my mother.
LP: No, no, no, I happened to be, this is after a two year period after I got to England.
JM: England.
LP: When we first left each other, I think I wrote one letter saying how lovely
JM: [unclear]
LP: I got one letter back, nothing for two years, I happened to be on leave in London and [unclear] officer by then and reading the paper and there was a little part in the paper that said, a lot of these girls were returning as they had been evacuated and gave the address of the headquarters there and I thought, oh, I might go, see if June [unclear] maybe and maybe I might pop in and see and she happened to be there at the headquarters when I popped in.
JM: At that particular time that you went and visited. How a coincidence.
JP: I was getting my papers to get on entertaining the troops had to join ENSO, which was Entertainments National Service Association.
LP: Join the straight, part of a straight play.
JP: Part of a straight play. And, you know I just had this, getting all this information and when Lorrie walked into the building and here you go.
JM: Well, there you go!
JP: Meant to be.
JM: Meant to be, that’s right. And so you became part of the entertainment, troop entertainment.
JP: Yes, I was always in, so, I went to a theatre school as a child through [unclear] and then we went to New York and then I had a very good, I had the best drama teacher in the world at that time called Frances Robinson-Duff and she gave me a free scholarship to attend her school and from there, well, I went back to England, the best way for me to use what I knew in theatre was to join the Entertainment National Service Association, which was a group that entertained troops in straight plays and things like that all over England and Scotland.
LP: You went up to the Orkneys at that time.
JM: Gosh! Yeah, so you, well.
JP: Unfortunately everybody would have been in the newspaper and I would have been in the [unclear] but Noel Coward who was like in charge of us, he was very conscious of keeping our privacy, he didn’t want that for us so he stopped that otherwise I would have had, you know, newspapers galore on what I was doing. It’s a shame.
LP: If June had stayed on , Noel Coward would have made sure that she had a good part.
JM: Gosh!
JP: No, he was like a father to me. Was fabulous.
JM: Amazing, yeah. Ok, we’ll come back to that because that obviously fits in with the story a bit further down the track, uhm, at the moment we just got you into England [laughs]
LP: Queen Elisabeth [unclear], because no escort at all
JM: You had no escort for [unclear], no.
LP: And one night, the Queen did a very quick, one hundred and eighty, three hundred and sixty degree turn because they knew there was a submarine, they were told there was a submarine after them, so I’m glad they had plenty of speed.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So you just did a massive turn around, you didn’t go by, there was one, I must check that, yes, there was one trip that actually went via Greenland. But because again a submarine concerns so did you either on this, on the Elisabeth did you meet, some of the chaps did watchers, did you do any, bridge watches or?
LP: Not on the Queen Elisabeth. But going from Australia to San Francisco, they loaded up guns and [unclear] as well because the war, looked like the Japanese could have come down from there on our way.
JM: But you didn’t do any bridge watch, some of the chaps did bridge watchers from the bridge. But no, so you just did some gunnery work, gunnery preparations on that over to San Fran, right, ok. So you ended up, from Halifax you ended Myles Standish, Bournemouth.
LP: Myles Standish, wasn’t that?
JM: That’s the departure before you went to
LP: Boston, wasn’t it?
JM: That be Boston, yeah, when you got onto the Elisabeth.
LP: Boston, we were held there for a few days and then went to New York onto the Queen Elisabeth.
JM: Yes, just, and so then into Bournemouth.
LP: Yes, held there for quite a while.
JM: About nearly two months basically in Bournemouth, so what sort of things were you doing in Bournemouth?
LP: Mainly parade and get a sport but we were bombed here.
JM: Really?
LP: We were bombed from the low level Focke Wulf, they got under the radar, they just fly over the water and it was a Sunday. If it hadn’t been a Sunday, half of us wouldn’t have been here because the parade ground was bombed. [unclear] my friend there, he got, [unclear] damaged, one thing or another, quite a few killed, civilians were killed at Bournemouth. Sunday the hotel was bombed, they couldn’t, they didn’t rescue anybody out there for a couple of days or two but they were having a great old time down the cellars [laughs].
JM: Down the cellars, well, at least they were safe, I suppose. And so, did your crew that you had been with, your New Zealander, your Canadian, they were all, they came across with you together on the plane, on the boat to Europe? And you’re at Bournemouth together?
LP: Yes, yes, no, I may have, my memory, I’m not too sure now whether it was just my observer and myself together and the wireless air gunner and the straight air gunner, we might have got together after the conversion onto Mitchells, I can’t quite remember that now.
JM: That’s alright, that’s ok. And.
LP: So, after we went after to Bicester.
JM: Towards had, no had two western first?
LP: Sorry?
JM: Tour western? Two western?
LP: Yeah, that’s right.
JM: Two western?
LP: Close to Bicester.
JM: Yeah well, in your entry you had two western then Bicester.
LP: Conversion onto the Mitchells [unclear].
JM: Mitchells.
LP: Two Western.
JM: And how did you find the difference between the Mitchell and the Ventura?
LP: Ah, beautiful aircraft, compared to the Ventura there’s no, hard to compare, the Mitchell was a beautiful aircraft.
JM: It was.
LP: I got a good one too, no, the aircraft varied but mine
JM: There were still two engine, weren’t they?
LP: Still two engines, yes.
JM: Yes. And what, you say they were beautiful aircraft, in what way?
LP: Well, we did a lot of formation flying again there and they were very responsive, very steady, fully aerobatic, not that we did any aerobatics with a bomber but they were capable of doing it. And Liberator, do you know the Liberator at all?
JM: No, not really, no.
LP: That’s a four engine.
JM: Four engine. Had another American one.
LP: The same that made the Liberator
JM: That made the Liberator
LP: Made the Mitchell
JM: Mitchell.
LP: And they are very similar, very similar. Matter of fact, those that went on to Liberators first went on to Mitchells to get the feel. Must show you, there probably a bit out of order but.
JM: Well how about we come back to that later on.
LP: Yeah, we’ll getting a bit thirsty
JM: Oh, ok, we will have a little bit of a.
LP: I mean, you, you must.
JM: No, no, I’m fine but we will just pause while you. We shall just continue on now with Lorrie has just shown me the book that Tony Vine has written on the history of the group of
LP: Group 20
JM: 20 course at Narromine.
LP: There were 50 of us.
JM: 50, so I’ll come, so I’ve seen the chapter on Lorrie which I will come back to afterwards. So, you were at
LP: [unclear]
JM: At Bournemouth.
LP: Yes.
JM: Sorry, then you went to Two Western and you were onto your Mitchell training here now.
LP: Yes, conversion onto.
JM: Yes, so, do you remember your crew there?
LP: Same.
JM: Same. Did you pick up an extra chap now?
LP: That’s where I think where I got the straight gunner, which was Starkey, he was another Canadian.
JM: Another Canadian.
LP: So I finished up with a New Zealander and two Canadians.
JM: Yeah, right, ok, and so from there, any particular experiences that come to mind when you were doing your conversion to your Mitchells?
LP: No, I think they, just the instructors started climbing up to twenty thousand feet and he wanted to demonstrate without our oxygen masks on and most of the chaps sort of passed out but I was very whizzy but I didn’t actually pass out. But, that’s one of, just off the top of my head, [laughs] not worth mentioning really.
JM: Right. Still showed you what would happen if you
LP: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask.
JM: If you didn’t have your oxygen mask, that’s right. So from there, uhm, off to Fulsome
LP: Swanton Morley?
JM: No, Folsom, briefly to start only three days, so, it was just a transit by the looks of the dates and from there Swanton Morley, so, Swanton Morley was you first posting, that was your when you were posted to 226 Squadron.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yeah, so this was.
LP: Which is an RAF Squadron.
JM: An RAF Squadron, yes, that’s right. And so from, so you arrived at 226 in August ’43.
LP: That’d be right.
JM: August ’43, August ’43, ok and that’s when you started your operational activities?
LP: Yes, from Swanton Morley.
JM: Yes, ok and so, uhm, so mostly your ops were over Northern France, sort of?
LP: Yes, northern France, Holland and, mainly on the V1 sites, we didn’t know, they didn’t tell us what we were actually bombing, cause a big secret at the time. It just what they called a V1 bombing and nothing else, other things too but because these launching sites were right on the coast, crossing over, the flak was very heavy, just hop in and hop out as quickly as you could, drop your bombs.
JM: And so here you had, how many, need to go back to your, we go to the
LP: Operations?
JM: Operations, here, what sort of missions, ops?
LP: Well, as I was saying, they were mainly V1 we were
JM: V1.
LP: We were doing daylight bombings.
JM: Daylight bombings, yes, good, ok, so, any, how many times, do you have?
LP: Thirty ops was a tour.
JM: A tour, yes, that’s alright.
LP: A tour and at the end of the thirty ops I was asked to, would I do another ten ops, which I volunteered to do.
JM: Yes. So, that’s your assessments there, September, yes, so your first ops, your first ops started on the 19th of September basically by the looks of that and through there, lots of flights in between time affiliation flying and then November you really started doing, you really started into the ops, that’s 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, yep, 40th operation cooling [?]. So, what’s, any particular ops stand out in terms of, uhm, where, you know, little bit of flak here, we see in January, cloud over target did not bomb, so, French coast, cloud, what sort of, what sort of memories do you have of those ops there?
LP: There, only the amount of flak that was put up to just like the black cloud [unclear]
JM: Black cloud.
LP: And I got hit quite, my observer got shrapnel in his knee from the flak and my straight air gunner, he was up in the top turret and he, quite a big thing hit him behind but luckily it was the flat end that hit him, if it would have been the sharp end the side of, he probably would have been
JM: He probably would have been into trouble.
LP: Yes. Luckily the captain’s seat had armoured plating about that thick [unclear] at the back
JM: Right, so you were reasonably protected from.
LP: Yes, and we always wore a normal helmet, not helmet, see, metal hat, you know, we called it, we didn’t wear a cap so
JM: No, no.
LP: But, the ordinary ground soldiers a metal thing because of the flak, it might help us if a bit of metal came in.
JM: That’s right, and the injuries of those two chaps sustained, were they?
LP: They were in hospital
JM: They were in hospital, I say, it didn’t cause them to miss any ops or one or two ops that you had a substitute crew for or?
LP: No. [unclear]
JM: No, they didn’t miss
LP: We kept the same crew all the way through.
JM: All the way through, right, ok. And, did you have escorts? You said there was lots of flak, so did you still have escorts to provide you a bit of protection or?
LP: Well, as I said, the escorts were [unclear] fighters up to twenty thousand feet, we were bombing between ten thousand and fifteen thousand feet. Daylight bombing and so the escorts could see us from, but that be about ten or fifteen thousand feet
JM: Between you
LP: Between us and if any German fighters showed up they, with the height advantage,
JM: They would be able to come in down over the top of them and try to pick them off
LP: Yes. Keep them. They were herding us along quite nicely. But unlucky with that first Venturas when they didn’t show up and they eleven out of twelve were shot down.
JM: That’s right. So, how bigger Squadron was 226?
LP: It was quite a big squadron and there were about three or four at different stations, airfields, and for instance this called Halliday, was when I met June at the hotel, he was at another airfield, I can’t remember the name of it now, about three or four, there was even a Polish squadron, they made part of our wing, what they called our wing, and they were dreadful in that, they didn’t believe in, they flew straight in and low [laughs] all the time, because, you know, we were told, and it’s pretty true, that if you kept on a straight level flight for ten seconds or a little bit more than ten seconds, without changing your course or your height, you‘re bound to be knocked down. So we did a lot of course changing and height changing.
JM: That’s right. And whilst you were at the base there, uhm, what, at Swanton Morley, you would have some leave, what sort of things did you do whilst you were on leave at Swanton Morley?
LP: We were lucky that there was an organisation that, I’m trying to think of the organisation there that offered to take you into different homes in different parts of England and myself and a good friend of mine, Jack Barrel [?], who is another pilot, we both decided on going up to the Lake District and we loved it, we met a magnificent family up there, he was a soldier from World War I and he at the Battle of the Somme he had a leg shot off and his wife was a lovely Hewardson missy, Hewardson.
JP: They were lovely people.
LP: And that’s where we went up for our honeymoon, up to Kendal, Lake District, and we went and visited them, we just stayed at that hotel at Kendal in Lake District.
JM: Right. Gosh! And did you get back to them a couple of times?
LP: Yes, yes.
JM: So whilst you were at Swanton Morley, so having made the contact with this family, the Hewardsons, did you say it was?
LP: Hewardsons.
JM: Hewardsons, yes. And they, so you then went back.
LP: Very much [unclear] like part of the family up there. Made us very welcome, looked after us magnificently.
JM: Yes, yes, it’s interesting how these bonds did form and how much someone else has commented to me that you know how what an unknown contribution those families really made because of the support and the care that they gave, the service chaps was.
JP: It was amazing.
LP: Of course, something like Miss Macdonald and something about [unclear] and somewhere on the [unclear], was quite nice people, didn’t know them at all but that’s what the organisation was called.
JM: Right, so then you continued to
LP: We left Swanton Morley and went down to Camberley in tents. We were just about to go, D-Day was just about to come up.
JM: Yes, that’s what I’m going to say. What about D-Day, yes?
LP: Well, actually I just finished my tour, they called it, there’s a tour and a half but they called two tours tour because it went on to the extra ten ones, so I was on leave on D-Day.
JM: Right.
LP: In London I think.
JM: Right.
LP: But I then went on to the second [unclear] communication Squadron from there.
JM: Right. Right. So, so you finished your tour at, in beginning of June, before June basically, wasn’t it? It’s the tour the eleventh, that’s May 23, was basically the last op you did there? That when you and then you had your, you’ve been given your assessment on the 11th of June, which of course is after D-Day, so that’s why you were on leave for, well, on D-Day, so, yeah. So, you went, where did you have your leave? Were you down in London or were you up, up north?
LP: London, London on D-Day.
JM: Right, right. And were you in London at that point, June, or?
JP: I think so.
LP: Must have been.
JP: I must have been, yeah. Yes, I must have been, yes. We must have been together.
LP: I don’t know whether you had come back from America at that stage, do you remember what month it was that you came back? It wasn’t, I think it was after June that we met up again.
JP: We had a patch of two years so we didn’t see each other.
LP: Yes.
JM: Right, right, ok. So, could have been as part of that time there. Yes.
LP: Because I know what I mean, we got married on January the 4th, I remember that.
JP: 1945.
JM: Right.
LP: 1945.
JM: January 4th 1945 we were married.
LP: And we weren’t, it took a while before I [unclear] enough courage to ask her to marry me [laughs].
JP: Yes. And we were [unclear] together like three months before that. And before that I was in, I must have been in America.
JM: Yes, yes, yes.
LP: And I was at, based at Northolt.
JM: Yes. Because you, in June you switched to Ansons so did you do a conversion course to the Ansons or was it similar to, from the?
LP: No, hardly necessary. Just another [unclear], the two on the Ansons, the Anson was twin engine, but is only used as a communication aircraft really.
JM: Right, ok, so this was the start of your other Squadron posting, was it?
LP: Yes.
JM: And what was that Squadron called?
LP: 2nd TAF communications squadron.
JM: Right, and so that was Northolt.
LP: They had [unclear]
JM: Yeah, ok. So, that was. So actually you were at 226 moved to Hartford Bridge from Swanton Morley.
LP: Yes, that’s right, yes, that’s right.
JM: So, you’re still flying there, you’re still flying ops at that stage.
LP: Yeah.
JM: It’s just that you change bases there.
LP: Yes.
JM: Yeah, ok. So, with the TAF on communication, what was that involving?
LP: Mainly, flying quite higher people from on aerodrome to the other. Ten days after D-Day I was flying across the Channel with generals and
JM: You were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters.
LP: Yeah, but [unclear] you’re getting too far ahead, June.
JP: Am I? Ah, but that’s what you were doing.
LP: But we were doing a lot of work based in Northolt, flying to different airfields in England, mainly carrying VIPs from one place to the other, carrying some mail from one place to the other, but I think I ran about the tenth, ten days after D-Day which would be, what, 16th? I was flying across the Channel with VIPs.
JM: Right.
LP: And then shortly after the whole communication squadron went across [unclear] and we were based in the beachhead, close to the beachhead, beachhead.
JM: Right. So, that was, yeah, so you were in France and then Belgium. So, from, in August, you had one month in France.
LP: Yeah.
JM: And then three months in Belgium.
LP: That’s right. Yeah. And during that three months, a part of, got three or four weeks, myself and two other pilots were attached to Montgomery’s headquarters and do take his majors up to frontline and get information back and bring that back too.
JM: Right, so. That, August, yes, so, looking at your logbook again, yes it doesn’t quite give us the details it, just tells that you went like in August you went to a whole pile of interesting, Elson [?], Chartres and in another flight you had Reims, Saint Mo [?] and return, so you were obviously visiting forward posts in there to pick up information and then drop staff and that sort of thing there, so, yes, how was that as an experience compared to your fighting operation shall we call?
LP: It is virtually called a rest period, rest period really but we were open to enemy attack at any time.
JM: Did you have any escorts at that time? How many of you were, you just a single plane?
LP: A single plane.
JM: A single plane, so didn’t have any escort or anything like that. You and your rescue were on your own resources in terms of keeping watch for anything.
LP: Yes, well, I didn’t have a crew then.
JM: Oh, ok, you were only.
LP: When I left the squadron, finished the operations, that was the end of the crew.
JM: Right, ok.
LP: So, it was just you.
LP: And other pilots, they were all.
JM: Just a mix of second pilots, just like a two, two men crew running.
LP: Well, wasn’t even a two men crew. We were flying lighter aircraft and it was the one crew flying the passengers virtually.
JM: Oh, ok, so you didn’t actually even have like a second pilot or anything, was just you as the pilot and the passengers that you were ferrying.
LP: Even the Anson which was twin engine thing, you just flew that by yourself. I even accepted that the time I had Prince Bernard [?] in Canada he, we were in Brussels at the time, and he wanted to go to Eindhoven and I was chosen to fly him there in the Anson and he and his couple of aids there and general, a couple of generals there and they sat down in the back and he wanted to sit up alongside of me and Prince Bernard [?] and took off and the old Anson in those days, you had to wind the undercarriage up and it took off and he said, oh, I’ll do that and he wound the undercarriage up for me [laughs]. Very nice chap.
JM: And did you ever meet Montgomery?
LP: I can’t say that I actually met him. No, it’s a wonder I didn’t because as I say there were three of us with these light aircraft attached to his headquarters and one Sunday morning, it must have been a Sunday morning and the English Townsend, Johnny Townsend, were having a bit of a rivalry amongst us and we went up, and we had a bit of a dogfight, you know, [unclear] treetop level and we were doing [unclear] and having a real good older, I won by the way because I and he admitted that I was coming inside him on the turns [unclear], we landed and very shortly after there was a VIP attached to Montgomery that came up and said: ‘What have [unclear] I had a lot of trouble, you’re in a lot of trouble because there was, Montgomery was very religious type of chap and he was carrying out the church parade and of course we were flying [laughs].
JM: The church creating a racket.
LP: And disturbed his church service and we weren’t very popular then [laughs].
JM: Oh dear, oh dear.
LP: So, that’s one incident that happened.
JM: And so, it was quite a different experience than for you to be doing.
LP: We [unclear] as a rest period, weren’t nearly in so much danger really, except we often had to keep our eyes open all the time because we were as far as the aircraft went, we were very much on top of the Germans, from D-Day on the German Air Force didn’t trouble us very much.
JM: So, what, you had quite a number of flights in that capacity. So you went through until December ’44 was the end of Belgium and then from there you were down to Brighton and obviously you had some leave at that point because if you then went and got married in January, beginning of January ’45, your time in Brighton was December ’44 to February ’45 so you had some leave and you got married. Where were you married, in London?
LP: Yes. West Hampstead, wasn’t it?
JP: West Hampstead.
JM: Right. Right. Very good.
LP: And then we had the honeymoon up in Kendal, in the Lake District [laughs].
JM: Back with the Hewardsons again.
JP: Yes.
LP: That’s right.
JM: Yes, so that [unclear] marvellous and so, then you came back on the Rangitiki.
LP: Rangitiki, New Zealand ship.
JM: And did you come, you wouldn’t have come as well?
JP: [unclear] travelled.
JM: Travelled together.
JP: It was terrible because English [unclear] was good. But not the Australians. It was terrible.
JM: No.
LP; A well, I can tell you something about that. The Australians they couldn’t take their wireless back with them, but the New Zealanders did and when we got on board, and the New Zealanders were there [unclear] I was very hurt about that. Yes, would have made a big difference.
JP: [unclear] went first, it was several months before I was pregnant which he didn’t know about.
LP: I didn’t know about [unclear].
JP: Until I saw him again and it was terrible for me cause I had to wait in England for months.
LP: And June was very lucky to be allowed to travel being pregnant.
JM: Yes, well, there was a cut-off time before they.
JP: I got
LP: June had the influence of her grandfather.
JP: My grandfather he was head of the [unclear] shipping company.
JM: Oh, ok.
JP: And only through him did a get a birth I mean cause they’d never allow somebody expecting a baby on the ship anyway during the war.
JP: There were a couple of others that I know of that came through as pregnant, when they were pregnant but yes.
LP: But June was, Richard was born in October.
JP: Several months when I came.
LP: By the time we landed in Sydney, you were what? Seven months pregnant?
JP: Yes, seven months pregnant.
JM: Yes, seven months. And so then you were finally discharged, so you came through on the Rangitiki and then you were discharged
LP: October.
JM: October ’45. Yes. Just saying a bit of note here that is going to sort of jump out of sequence here which but when you were in 226, so you finished up in June, June ’44 we said, wasn’t it? That was your last op, yes, that was last op ’44, so were you, which plane were you on one plane only when you were in 226 or did you fly two or three different planes?
LP: No, only Mitchells, I only flew the Mitchells there and I had my own aircraft.
JM: You had your own aircraft, yes. No, it’s just that I noticed when I was looking up 226 to try and find out a little bit about 226 because I’d never come across 226 previously and one of the notes there said that there was a P for Peter, was a distinguished plane in 226 because it was the only Mitchell that completed one hundred ops. And I didn’t know whether you had ever flown on P for Peter or whether you would, if you’d happen to remember any one who might have flown on P for Peter.
LP: I can’t quite remember either. Does it tell you the aircraft?
JM: It probably does if I actually go back and have a look.
LP: When I was on leave towards the end in my tour, while you are on leave somebody else couldn’t fly your aircraft.
JM: Yes.
LP: And somebody did and the undercarriage didn’t come down when it went in to land, so he landed without a nose wheel, because Mitchells had nose wheels, he did a, he got his crew to go down the back and he finished his landing alone and he kept the nose off the ground all the time, got the ground crew to come out to pull the nose wheel struck down and they did but they didn’t [unclear] and when they were towing it away it came down
JM: Collapsed.
LP: It crashed. Oh, I was so annoyed. I did get another aircraft, a newer aircraft with newer engines, but it wasn’t nearly as nice to fly as the, H for Harry, I’ll bet you’ll find those.
JM: Well actually no, you, all you got is numbers so, I haven’t got any letters unfortunately.
LP: I’m sure there’s H for Harry anyhow.
JM: H for Harry, was it, there you go, no, there’s no letters, there’s just numbers, so. But anyway that’s alright.
LP: H, I’m sure there’s H, wasn’t Peter.
JM: Wasn’t Peter, right. So, back in, you were discharged as we said in December.
LP: October.
JM: October ’45, sorry, and because you arrived, which is a long time after you arrived back, cause you arrived back in March ’45 so.
LP: Yes, we refreshed the course [unclear]
JM: Oh, did you?
LP: Yes, on Oxford and then we went down to East Sale to do a pre endorsement on Beauforts.
JM: Right, because I suppose at that stage they were concerned about, you might have been going off to Asia, were you? For
JP: Yes.
LP: Yes, but before that I was going to go from the Beauforts on to Mosquitos at Williamtown.
JM: Right.
LP: And then the war ended.
JM: Ended.
LP: I wanted to get on to Mosquitos to [laughs]
JP: Yes. That was his love.
JM: Right.
LP: Yes, well I, yes, initially it was Spitfires but at the end, towards the end Mosquitos were lovely aircraft.
JM: Right, right. So did you actually fly?
LP: Mosquitos?
JM: No.
LP: I didn’t even get the posting to Williamtown.
JM: No, no.
LP: East Sale, you know where East Sale is?
JM: Yes, down Victoria.
LP: Victoria. That’s where the beau fighters were.
JM: Beau fighters were.
LP: No, not beau fighters, Beauforts, Beauforts.
JM: Beauforts, Beauforts. Right.
LP: And I did finish the course there and as I say the war ended then. [phone ringing] Thanks June.
JM: So, yes, so, well, that’s interesting that you had all that extra training [unclear]
LP: Excuse me, I gotta, he’s gonna call me back.
JM: Go back, so, then having done all these extra bits of training it never came to anything as such and the war ended so you were finally discharged in October ’45.
LP: Yes.
JM: And by which time June had arrived I assume, yes, yes.
LP: Yes, produced our son.
JM: Yes, your son.
JP: I had him at October 9th 1945.
JM: Right, right, so that was just before you were discharged, ok, uhm, and you were in Sydney here at that point.
JP: Yes.
LP: No, no, you were up at Burrell.
JP: Up at Burrell? Oh, sorry, I, when you said Sydney I meant Australia. Yes, I was up at Burrell.
LP: No, my parents were retired in a place up at Burrell, near [unclear], Gloucester Way.
JM: Ok, right, so there.
JP: So basically I was when I had the baby.
JM: Right, right, ok, so, that would have been a bit of a shock to the system and the whole country town there.
LP: It was, no telephone,
JP: I got on the phone and said to people in England and New York, I said, well look I’m up here, there’s no phone, no electricity, no toilet inside [unclear] [laughs].
JM: Dunny is down the back.
LP: Was a bit of a shock.
JP: [unclear]
LP: But I had told her what to expect.
JP: Oh yes, I wasn’t, you know, [unclear], I did it with fun.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: Was lovely, June settled in there beautifully.
JP: Oh yes, no, they were lovely to me. When I first arrived, of course being a little English girl, I was all white,
JM: White, that’s right.
JP: And just, they went, ah, [laughs], who’s this? Where does she come from? [laughs]
LP: And June could make up beautifully and she looked lovely anyhow but all the local girls [unclear]
JP: Who’s this? [laughs] Where did she come from?
JM: That’s right, yes.
JP: What planet? [laughs]
JM: Yes, exactly. And so, when did you start your chartered business? You showed
LP: The air taxi.
JM: Air taxi out of Bankstown.
LP: Yes.
JM: Was that the first thing you did after the war?
LP: The first job that I went into, organized setting up the air taxi. I met a chap, a country chap that he and his wife looking for something of interest, they were pretty well off and we got on very well together and we went down to Canberra and saw Dragford [?], who is a politician and he managed to get two light aircraft from the RAAF at Richmond. So we got hold of [unclear], picked one up, all [unclear] up nicely and start to operate from then.
JM: So did you, whereabouts in Sydney were you living at this point? Were you out near Bankstown or were you travelling out there?
LP: Yes, yes, there was another airport chap that I got to know, at Dauphin quite well, and his parents were living at Bankstown at the time
JM: Right.
LP: And they put us up there until their daughter was born and then
JM: Yeah, right.
JP: [unclear] was born.
JM: Right, right.
LP: Yes, very kind of them.
JM: Yes, yes. So, and you, I think you said three or four years did you have your charter business for?
LP: Ah, about a year and a half.
JM: Year and a half was it? Right.
LP: It was all, because before we went broke.
JM: Right.
JP: Did the guard man threaten to put out some cost, which would put us out of business?
LP: Yes, I said we’re gonna charge [unclear] in air mile
JP: And then they were gonna put it up. And that would have put us out of business. So we had to give it away.
LP: I interviewed [unclear] and Mr Butler, whose Butler Airlines at that stage, he thought we could combine quite well but as [unclear] couldn’t carry on. I even took a couple just to keep this going in, even took a couple of jobs with [unclear] I think it was and the other place, in George Street down the hill.
JM: Down the hill?
LP: Down the hill from George Street near central.
JM: Oh, Mark Foyes?
LP: No, in George Street.
JM: Oh, George Street.
LP: George Street, was a well known
JM: Hordens?
JP: Hordens? Anthony Hordens?
JM: Anthony Hordens?
LP: Anthony Hordens? Yes, I was in, I didn’t smoke, so I got a job in the smoking factory.
JM: Oh, in the tobacco section.
LP: Selling cigarettes and so. Because they always had their battered up tins of cigarettes, fifty, used to be the old fifty tins in those days. And any ones that got battered, they virtually sold them and at this stage I was keen to get into Qantas so I used to do, every week go down to the recruitment place in Qantas and with my tins, battered tins of cigarettes and the recruitment officer, he was a smoker and he bought these battered tins from me every week which is quite [unclear]
JM: Had a little bit of a discount.
LP: Yes, a big discount. So, I think that helped me get into Qantas.
JM: Nothing like a little bit of encouragement.
LP: Exactly, exactly.
JM: For favourable, to view your credentials favourably.
LP: Yes.
JM: Well I mean, you did have the right credentials, let’s face it, so, I mean, that, yes.
LP: There were so many ex Air Force men who wanted to get in
JM: Yes, but they had the pick of the whole field, really.
LP: They did, they did.
JM: So, yes, yes. So, you joined up into Qantas in?
LP: Yes, 28th of March I think it was, 1948.
JM: Right, ok. So, then you started, you were doing domestic or international?
LP: No, international. At the same I was applying to TAA at the same time and they both came and said, come and see us. But the idea of just flying up Sydney, Melbourne, Sydney, Melbourne didn’t really appeal to me.
JM: Taxi run.
LP: And Qantas sounded a lot nicer to me. Don’t say good for June I suppose. Because overseas
JM: Because overseas, periods of absence, yes.
LP: We got two, sometimes three up to Japan because the Korean War had started then. And we took on the Skymaster DC4 we used to fly up to there and the troops landed there and their air force up there, [unclear], and you’d be up to three weeks away, probably because you had to wait for [unclear] ex-service people.
JM: Right. And so how long were you with Qantas for?
LP: Thirty years.
JM: Thirty years. Gosh!
LP: Yes. Thirty years with Qantas.
JM: So, you would have seen quite a number of changes in that time. Obviously, with different planes and
LP: Start off on the DC3 and then went on to the Skymaster DC4, the Superconny, Super Constellation, wasn’t very long and then went on to the 707, Boeing 707 and then the last five years I was on the Jumbo 747.
JM: 747, yes. And have you flown on the A380s at all?
LP: Yes. I have, as passenger.
JM: As passenger. Yes, yes, well that would have been a change again. From the 747.
LP: Like going to [unclear] on the [unclear]. Amazing.
JM: That’s right. And so, once you retired from Qantas in ’78, anything, did you do anything in particular after?
LP: Oh yes, I bought a farm. [laughs]
JM: Bought a farm, right.
LP: Yes, that’s why we just sold, that’s why everything in the dining room down there is chock-a-block. My son also owns another property out in the country and he’s had a big shed that with nothing in there and that’s chock-a-block.
JP: That’s chock-a-block. We’ve got stuff out there that [unclear] what we’re gonna do.
LP: And my son also has a place at [unclear] that’s painting off
JP: That’s his [unclear]
JM: Oh, it’s beautiful.
LP: Two people there during the night.
JM: Oh my goodness!
LP: Great grandchildren.
JP: The artist just did that for us.
JM: Lovely!
JP: That’s the back of the house.
LP: We’ve got the others to go down there and paint it.
JM: Paint it, gosh!
LP: Oh, he’s got a beautiful place!
JP: Oh, it’s beautiful.
JM: And whereabouts is your farm?
LP: At Burrell, near [unclear].
JM: Oh, back in, family, back in where your parents were, so, right.
LP: What happened was in about 1977 [unclear], no ’74, was that Dad came, he said, why don’t you buy the land around us, it was off the sale but 160 acers all together and buy that and when we go, it looks like they were going to go fairly soon, we will leave you the little house and leave you, make a nice little property for you when we go. So that’s what we did. I’m just about to buy a lovely home at Lake Macquarie.
JM: Oh, ok.
LP: Wangi Wangi.
JM: Wangi Wangi, yes, yes.
LP: It’s a waterfront [unclear] a little pathway.
JM: Yes, yes.
LP: People like to use the pathway on the other side of this bay and Dad came up with this offer and I can see we could help them at the same time and we changed over.
JM: Lovely. Oh, that’s a beautiful area up there I mean.
LP: It is.
JP: Magnificent.
LP: My mother came from this little township called Burrell, [unclear] Newcastle.
JM: Yes, that’s right. So, you had a very varied and interesting life.
LP: Very much so.
JM: And during, from your wartime experiences would you say there’s any one sequence of events that stays with you perhaps more than others or? One event or?
LP: Can’t say, can’t say. No, can’t say anything. I, we, the CO just before at the end of the tour recommended me for a DFC and then when he left the new CO came in, he called me and he said: ‘Oh, look, here’s this recommendation for a DFC, he said, well, I don’t know anything about you, but can you tell me what you did so we can write up a citation with, I said, I couldn’t think of anything, really [laughs]. And he said: ‘You write what you think might be the best thing in [unclear] the DFC, I said, oh, I thought is not a war to go on yet and I said, just leave it. And he wrote in and I got mentioned a special [unclear] left at then. But an AFC, an Air Force Cross I could have written down something and then because, you know, in formation with head boxers and six, I don’t know if you had, one leading aircraft had one formation on this side and then another one over there and then another one down here with two chaps, you’d have six aircraft all in one box of six, you’d re following me there?
JM: Yes, I am.
LP: And if you went up through cloud then, the idea was everybody to alter course 30 degrees for [unclear] and then climb up through the cloud and break through the clouds up and open it all the aircraft all over the place there and form one again [?]. Well, we had one chap, a fairly high air force official came to our squadron, he said, you know, the fighters, they four made up the fighters coming a lot closer and they form up and they go through the cloud in formation so the CO heard about that and he got a flight Lieutenant and said, give it a try and I’d hear about this and so the next time this went up through the cloud and I stuck in and kept formation all the way up through there and the other chap, that, this flight Lieutenant, he couldn’t do at the end the breakaway so I came up, oh, I was the only one that kept in formation. Well, [unclear] I could have written up something about that, an AFC. That’s the only other experience I can pass on to you.
JM: And what about down the years, did you manage to stay in touch with your New Zealand and Canadian crew chaps or?
LP: Not the Canadians, the, we went to a holiday, a bit of a holiday over in New Zealand and I met up with my observer then. Oh, by the way that business of flying through the clouds, after they found out that it could be done, after that all the operations, that they went up through cloud, we all formed up and went through in formation.
JM: You stayed in formation.
LP: After [unclear]
JM: So you brought about a change of procedure so to speak.
LP: Yes.
JM: And so the chap, Dennis, Dennis
LP: Lez Witham.
JM: Lez Witham.
LP: Lez Witham was my observer.
JM: Right.
LP: He was at Duneaton [?].
JM: And so you managed to keep in contact with him a little bit.
LP: A little bit.
JM: Post war.
LP: He became a, bonds, he was a
JM: Stock broker.
LP: Stock broker, yes, he became a stock broker.
JM: Right. Interesting.
LP: [unclear] when you get old, you can’t remember names [unclear].
JM: We’re talking about so long ago and so many thing have happened in the years [unclear] that’s quite, But the fact is that, you know, those experiences, the nitty gritties of the experiences stay with you and while some of the finer details may not necessarily be there, the whole overall experience is very much still part and parcel of you.
LP: But names of people [unclear] I mean you can’t and June is even worse than I am, terribly [unclear]. I told you about five times I don’t take milk in tea and I like milk in my coffee and but she asks me every time [unclear]
JM: Ah well, she is always planning for a change of taste, that’s what it is. [unclear] And did you keep in touch with any of, like training type people that you were trained with or did you make up, come because of being in Qantas you would have met up with a lot of service personnel, did?
LP: Not Air Force,
JM: Not Air Force.
LP: But of course, except my wireless air gunner, he married and we had a few [unclear] from her and sometime years ago now and she used to correspond a bit [unclear] and as I say, the observer, New Zealand observer we but the straight air gunner, no, he didn’t, didn’t hear anything from him. He was a character, he was only a short stocky Canadian, he was a real toughy [unclear], he was a good air gunner, [unclear] I liked the chap, I liked him.
JM: Well, that’s what you want, you want someone who is good at, everyone had to be good at their own jobs. That was part and parcel of the survival of the crew, I think, wasn’t it?
LP: Yes.
JM: Yes, so, and that you may not necessarily be best of buddies but you were able to work together and have that cohesion that was required to be a good team, to survive.
LP: I never had any trouble with my crew at all so very good, very good.
JM: I know it’s hard work so I do appreciate you were sharing some memory, many memories with me.
LP: It’s hard work trying to remember [unclear] no, I enjoyed it because it brings to day sort of [unclear] quite a few [unclear].
JP: Lovely memories.
LP: I wish I had this Mitchell, we had the whole squadron in front of a Mitchell and where that photo is.
JM: It’s in one of your boxes. You’ll find it one day, it will turn.
LP: Tony Vine has got, he took a lot of photos
JM: Photos
JP: We’ve got a lot of boxes in there.
LP: Yes, but he took a lot of photos to
JM: To put into the book.
LP: Yes, to put into the book.
JM: Well, if nothing else, we might wrap up then if there is anything else, unless there’s anything else that you can think of, that you want to mention.
LP: Can you think of anything else, June?
JP: No, no.
JM: So, we’ll wrap it up as I say and I.
LP: June wants to bring up the bird strike business with the Qantas of course but.
JP: Oh, not really. We’ll leave it.
LP: Ok. You brought it up, you brought it up.
JP: I know, but, definitely yes.
LP: We had a bird strike on a Jumbo Jet taking off from Sydney and it looked like we lost two engines on one side, during take-off. Luckily, number 4 engine came good again, otherwise it looked we were going to ditch in Botany Bay.
JM: Interesting.
LP: We came good [unclear] jettison, we were going to Singapore at the time, with about 300 passengers on board. So, we dumped our fuel and while we were dumping our fuel, of course that takes some time, [unclear] on the ground and engineering and they prepared another aircraft while we were dumping to go on to London eventually and Philip, Prince Philip, he’s been a night.
JM: Have you been sick?
JP: Yes, he’s been in hospital. For two days.
LP: And actually in 1963 we had a basing with Qantas, a four year basing in London to fly from London to New York and in 1963 the Commonwealth Games were on and he opened them, but I flew from London to New York.
JM: Oh good!
LP: And there’s a photograph over there that he gave to me heading up on the flight deck landing into New York.
JM: Into New York, he was like that,
LP: Yes.
JM: Even though he was a naval man. But he, I think he was very interested in
LP: He had a helicopter, so I [unclear] fly a helicopter, I asked him, when I first saw him, was I asked him, how as it like to fly a helicopter, he said it was like rubbing your head in [unclear] or vice versa. He was very down to earth, very down to earth, Prince Philip.
JM: That’s interesting, yeah, so, obviously you landed successfully back in Sydney and by which time the plane, the new, the replacement plane was ready so you just walked off and did you then crew that, fly or did they say that you’d done enough hours, that you had exceeded your hours by the time?
LP: I’d flown him from, you’re right, I’d run out of flight time. Actually we’d flown from London to New York and then [unclear] arrival on the minute and they reported right back to the CO to London, couldn’t imagine, can’t imagine how I came from London to New York and arriving on schedule to the very minute.
JM: A feather in your cap then for managing to do that, yes, that was wonderful.
LP: So there’s one of the things that come to mind.
JM: Mind, yes, so, four years in London would have been an interesting experience, so you
JP: Ah, it was wonderful. It was really possibly one of the best times of our life, with young children [unclear] growing up.
LP: We had a lovely double story home in [unclear] Water,
JP: [unclear] Water.
LP: Near the park.
JP: Pardon?
LP: Near the park.
JP: Yes.
LP: What’s the name? Buckingham, not Buckingham.
JM: St James?
LP: Windsor Park.
JM: Windsor Park. Right.
JP: Near Windsor Park. Ah, it was absolutely beautiful. We had the most wonderful four year posting, and the kids were the right age, weren’t they?
LP: Yes.
JP: Just entering their teens.
LP: And we would take them on holiday, over to, over to Europe.
JM: Over to the continent. And around and they gave you a chance to see your family again, I presume.
JP: Oh yes. No, it was absolutely fantastic. Couldn’t have asked for a better posting than that. No, we loved that.
JM: Would have been a lovely time for four years.
LP: I could have extended that posting for another two years except that our son and daughter, our son was eighteen and our daughter was
JP: Sixteen or something.
LP: Sixteen or seventeen. I thought that if we stayed another two years, they’ve never gone back to Australia.
JP: Back to Australia. You know, they would have got [unclear]
JM: Yes.
LP: So we came back and of course my parents weren’t very well.
JM: Very well by that stage, so [unclear]
JP: We did the right thing because it was for your parents mainly. Yes, no, it was the right thing to do.
LP: Yes, so, all. No, could we offer you a bit of afternoon tea now?
JM: Thank you, we will just wrap up here though, and just formally say once again thank you Lorrie very much and June for your contributions, it’s been so thank you indeed.
LP: It’s lovely talking to somebody that’s interested.
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APennL170622
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Interview with Lawrence Penn
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:48:11 audio recording
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Pending review
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Creator
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Jean Macartney
Date
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2017-06-22
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Penn grew up in Australia and worked as a bank clerk before he volunteered for the Air Force. He flew 40 operations as a pilot with 226 Squadron. After the war he had his own air taxi company and also flew for Qantas.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
United States
England--Norfolk
New York (State)--New York
New York (State)
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
226 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
bombing
crewing up
love and romance
mid-air collision
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
pilot
RAF Hartford Bridge
RAF Swanton Morley
RAF Turweston
rivalry
Second Tactical Air Force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Ventura
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/318/3475/APughA160625.2.mp3
4a2607dfd0ac35fbffecc7cae5c11a55
Dublin Core
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Title
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Pugh, Alan
A Pugh
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Alan Pugh.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Pugh, A
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AdP: Set that up. Just tap this to make sure it’s working. Alright. Get rid of that, sit down, pick up my list of questions and we’ll go. So, like, like I did last time I’ll just do a short introduction.
AlP: Yeah.
AdP: To set the scene.
AlP: That’s alright.
AdP: And we’ll go from there. This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Alan Pugh who was a navigator in training at a Heavy Conversion Unit when the war ended. It’s the 25th of June 2016. We’re at Alan’s nursing home in Warragul in Victoria. My name’s Adam Purcell. Alan, we might start somewhere in the beginning. Can you tell me something about growing up and your early life and first job and schooling and things like that?
AlP: I was at school here. I was born and bred in Warragul. No. Sorry, in Colac, Western Victoria of ordinary parents who — my father was, worked in retail and he was, during the war a sergeant instructor in the Volunteer Defence Corps and was therefore quite keen that I, as a teenager growing toward eighteen in the 40s, early 40s, should go to my choice of the RAAF. And I had been two years by that time in the Air Training Corps once it started up in 1941 or something like that. And I wanted to fly. I just wanted to fly. And so in the process of the period between sixteen, my age of sixteen and eighteen, I did have the opportunity of going to an air force station. It was the south side of Melbourne. Laverton. Which was a service [pause], servicing facility I suppose. And I got the opportunity there for a weekend exercise and had a ride. A ride, I thought in, in an Avro Lanc. No. Not a Lancaster. An Avro Anson. And as I, as I flew over my home town which is only less than a hundred k’s away I had the excitement of seeing my home environment in this unfamiliar sense and that thrilled me to the back teeth. And so I was destined to go in to the RAAF and hopefully aircrew, if they’d accept me, in 1943. January 1943 found me at work. I’d left school. The family economy was not strong. And other members of the family. So I resumed my education by correspondence in the year eleven. By that time also I, I was admitted in the ATC. Air Training Corps. And quite rapidly studied the airmanship, Morse code, aircraft recognition. All those things we did but even, even as well as drill. So in September 1943, my birthday, eighteenth birthday arose. But just before then I received a letter from the military forces telling me that I would need to report to the army base out at western [pauses] Western Melbourne. West Melbourne. What was it Adam? Do you remember?
AdP: West Melbourne.
AlP: The big suburb out there. It’s our big suburb.
AdP: Not Footscray.
AlP: No. It’s further out. Further out.
AdP: Oh right.
AlP: Anyway.
AdP: No. I don’t know.
AlP: I wrote back, and I said that I’d already indicated to ATC that I wanted to join the RAAF and I’d wait for their call up. I received another letter back from them to say that if I don’t receive a call up by, I think it was 7th of October 1943 the first letter stands. I still report to the army base. Fortunately, I got my letter from the RAAF and very early in October I fronted up in Melbourne to, with a bunch of other country lads and city lads who had just recently turned eighteen and we were interviewed and some of us selected to report to Somers, Number 2 ITS, on such and such a date. Which was very, very close to that date. And so we did. And so I was interviewed. Did all the medical tests. All the ones. The intimate ones as well. And Number 46 course commenced during October. And there I found myself AC2. The lowest deck of the RAAF. AC2 Pugh, AH. 438436. Next to me was AC2 Salmon, Ralph — who received the number 438438. And we still see each other periodically these days. We remained friends all that time.
AdP: What, where were you when you heard that war had been declared and what were you doing at the time?
AlP: At school. I was at school. I was probably only second or third form then. The headmaster, AB Jones called us to school assembly. So we went all out in to the quadrangle. Lined up to be told that war has been declared and as of that date Australia, or Britain, the Prime Minister of Britain had declared war on Germany. And as of that date we also were at war.
AdP: What were your feelings when you heard that?
AlP: Pardon me?
AdP: What did you think when you heard that?
AlP: I don’t know what I thought about that. We were all muttering, ‘War. War.’ It’s something. World War One was history we were being taught. Many stories we knew, and we didn’t know what to expect. Hadn’t thought about our own involvement. But our parents. What we got from our parents was pretty much what we, what we thought. This is terrible but we’ll have to do it. Go through it all over again. My dad himself was very quick to offer his services if there was to be a Dad’s Army. But because of us kids and mum he wasn’t prepared to, to enlist. He was over age.
AdP: So, alright, can you, can you tell me something about the interview? The medical process that you were talking about. Briefly.
AlP: No. I can’t remember very much of it. It was, it was height, weight. Stethoscope stuff. Looking at our teeth. I know I had, had to have a couple of fillings very early in my time at Somers. The short arm inspection was the intimate bit. And do I have to describe that? Or would that –?
AdP: Please go ahead.
AlP: It’s an examination of one’s genitals to see that we weren’t [pause] that A) we were male and B that we didn’t have a noxious disease. A noxious disease. I call it noxious. That was a periodical through our career. A warning. Incidentally, of course, also we received, I received the injections for, against smallpox. What do we call that? Vaccination. That was done as well. That’s as much as I remember, Adam.
AdP: So what memories do you have of Somers and your training that you did there?
AlP: Somers. I remember arriving. This bunch of sheds. Cabins I suppose they were. They had belonged to the education department. And moving into there there was a, I seem to remember that there was a Tiger Moth elevated on a pole in front of us and there was an emblazoned sign —RAAF. Number 2 ITS Somers. In there we were soon allocated our uniforms. Full uniform. Plus battledress. Plus forage cap of course. Blue dress uniform. Several shirts. Tie. Underwear. Several underwear. Socks and shoes. And the notorious bag of straw. The pallias. Then we were taken around the various areas. Shown the features including the parade ground which we frequently frequented and the [pause] I don’t think there was a parachute section there. No. That wasn’t. That was later. That was later in the course. There was no need for parachutes because we weren’t — there was no flying at ITS. Then in the classrooms it was a bit much more of ATS. ATC rather. Air Training Corps continued day after day. Study at night for a certain amount of time plus drill. Plus some rifle training. And several route marches along the shore of Somers being a bayside suburb. And I remember the drill instructor. A disastrous boy. I won’t use the other words because there might be children listening. But he was one of those members who exercised his anxiety and anger against trainee aircrew. I heard the rumour that he was a failed candidate himself. So this was his revenge. This may not be true. May not be true but I know he didn’t like two or three of us and exercised some discipline. The boy corporal. I remember, and we almost worshipped the squadron leader Hubert Opperman who was our physical training. Head of physical training. Hubert Opperman was world champion cyclist. Australian world champion cyclist. And Australian being world champion cyclist in a number of areas prior to the war. And I used to watch him in the Warragul — sorry in the Melbourne to Warrnambool race. Annual road race. A hundred and eighty miles. As he travelled through Colac because we would watch every year. Watch that race. The contestants going through. There were contestants from several parts of the world. Hubert Opperman. Big name.
AdP: What did he do? He was a drill instructor or a PT instructor or something?
AlP: He was — no. He was in charge of all that. So I’m not sure what he did but he did operate the exercise class for us with fitness tests and so on. But he didn’t do the work out of the, out on the drill. Drill ground.
AdP: Yeah.
AdP: I don’t remember much else. Indeed, I can’t remember the name of the CO. Nor any of the other officers. The teachers. Those who led the classes. The classes were comprehensive. Maths and more Morse code and more aircraft recognition stuff. That was where we had to learn a vast number of aircraft, I think by the time. By this time Japan was in the war. With a little bunch of [toras?] So we had to recognise American, British, Italian as well. Aircraft. And get to recognise them in part of a second. They were flashed on the screen and we were tested for progressive growth on that. Improvement over the period of the three months.
AdP: What happened at the end of that training?
AlP: The end of the ITS training? Well, among other things we were, in the very last stage they took us, gave us the opportunity of getting of getting onto the link trainer. The link trainer was a device that you sat in and you used your hands, your feet and your eyes to, to focus. Each of these, your impulse, each of your limbs controlled a light. And this, as I remember it, and this could be a bit vague the, as we set in motion a simulated movement but actually we were just rocking around and our, our hands, each hand controlled a light. We had to focus that on another moving post. I don’t know what the moving thing was. It was something on the wall. It maybe was another light. We all, we tried that. That tested our hand and eye and foot coordination. I didn’t like it. I thought this is something I don’t want to be part of. What else have we got? But they gave us the choice actually. Do you want to be pilot? Do you want to be a navigator? Do you want to be a wireless operator? No one offered to be an air gunner. We all wanted to be one of those three I guess. I think most of the guys wanted to be a pilot. I liked the academic aspect, if you can call it that, Adam, of the study and the work. We had some prelimary work on map reading and navigation. Map plotting and so on and I rather liked that. So when it came to the choice of what we wanted to be I was amazed that I wanted, that they gave us a choice. And I said, ‘Please sir, I choose to be a navigator trainee.’ We were called, it was called air observer at the time. Alias navigator/bomber. Navigator/bomb aimer. And that would be probably a second last week we were at Somers. The last week we were summoned to parade in our chosen [pause] where we were advised before this [pause] after that, after that, that period. The last week we were advised whether or not we had achieved our choice. And I had. I’d achieved mine. And just before the end of the week we were paraded in our, in our chosen trades. There were thirty two of us from that course, 46 Course, Somers who wanted to be navigators. Two of them were Dutch. One a mixed-race Dutch Indonesian. And they were told that, ‘You will be staying in Australia. You remainder thirty. You are on final leave as from now and you’ll be going to Canada. And you will be, you are to report to,’ such and such a spot. A place in [pause], it was in, at Spencer Street Station. That’s right. We were to report such and such a date, at such and such a time at Spencer Street Station early in January. This by the way by now we were in, we were in December. We went on final leave. Sent home to tell our parents. Took me five days before I could tell my mother. She hinted at it. Dad wasn’t at all worried. Dad was a very loyal Australian would-be soldier. And then he accompanied me to Melbourne that day. That date. We got to Spencer Street Station. Got on the Sydney Express. Said a tearful goodbye and off to Sydney for embarkation to Canada. Got to Sydney and there was a slight change of plan. And the change of plan was that we were leaving from Melbourne. Oh well, I thought. There were no perfect organisations in the world. There was only one perfect person and that was a long time ago. So we were, I think only a day or two in Sydney and back. Back to Melbourne and we left the train at Flinders Street. Or Spencer Street it would have been wouldn’t it? And entrained then or bussed I suppose it was. We were bussed to Melbourne Cricket Ground. The last time I was in Melbourne Cricket Ground I was standing on a wooden box watching a test match between England and Australia.
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Seven years earlier. I was eleven. Here I am now. Eighteen. With the privilege of sleeping on the concrete stands at the cricket ground. The Grandstand of the cricket ground. And with, again with a cursed pallias to sleep on and given four days, indicated that in four days we would be leaving fully equipped with the, to go, to go, to be embarked from Port Melbourne but this was secret. We were not to let anybody know. It was too be highly secret. We were, the day before we, we left by train we were given a message. We were the day before we would rise at 4am and we would, I don’t think we even ate. We were to pick up our gas masks, our eating irons, our equipment and our bag of course. Our sausage bag. Have you seen the sausage bags Adam? The long.
AdP: The kit bag.
AlP: The kit bag. Yeah. And marched across the cricket ground. Around it perhaps, would have been. Around the cricket ground to the railway line which ran the further, this is the southern side of the Melbourne Cricket Ground. And that was the southernmost line through Flinders Street Station. It was late but never mind. We, we all embarked, and the train took off on a very halting journey to, through Flinders Street Station. Still a bit dark, but not quite as dark as had been. The idea was to be we were travelling in secret. And by the time we were travelled through the main traffic stream in South Melbourne it was 8 o’clock. Full daylight and traffic everywhere and people waving and seeing us on the train and, ‘Good bye boys.’ ‘All the best boys.’ All this sort. The most publicity we could have got. Down to the ship on the port at Port Melbourne. It was the USS Hermitage. An American. An American troop ship. And a pretty old ship. And on, on board we encountered some American GIs. A lot of them. A lot of [pause] quite a few Chinese civilian refugees and some Russian civilian refugees on different, different decks from us. We were given a small portion of one of the first deck I think. Upper deck. And then there was quite a lot of, below decks, a load of Lascars. Indian seamen. Merchant seamen on their way to America. Probably to pick up new, new ships. Whether they’d lost their ships. Whether they’d been sunk or what we didn’t know. We didn’t have any relationships with them. They were kept away from us. In fact everyone was kept away from us. We were about, well besides us Victorian members from ITS, navigators and bomb aimers and wireless operators we had the ones from Sydney as well. Maybe some from other states. I don’t know. We all came back in the trains anyway together. Back from Sydney to Melbourne as I described earlier. And on one bright sunny January morning we made our way out of Port Phillip into Bass Strait on our way to the US. California. January 1944. A hot and beautiful summer. And very soon we started a rather haphazard course. Zig zag course. And within a few days it was getting cold. And then it got quite cold and we couldn’t understand it. We were going to California. We reasoned it out of course that our course was taking us south of New Zealand and it wasn’t until we noticed, noticed clearly that we were on a north east.
[background voices regarding blood pressure tests]
Other: Hello. Alan, it’s Meredith.
AlP: Meredith. Yes. Meredith. Nurse. This is my friend Adam. He’s interviewing me again.
Other: Gents, I’m really sorry to interrupt. I know you’re right in the middle of stories but Alan I do need to do your blood pressure again and go through those questions that we ask.
AlP: Yes.
Other: Because I’m just about to ring the doctor. Sorry.
AdP: No worries. I’ll cut it out later. I’m quite used to it.
AlP: You’re happy to stay Adam?
AdP: Yeah. No worries. If you’re happy with that.
AlP: I had a fall this morning. Not a major one but I skinned my toe.
AdP: Oh bugger.
Other: Alan, can you tell us where we are?
AlP: Where we are? Yes. We’re in my room in Fairview Homes at Fairview Village. And in Warragul.
Other: Well done. And what’s today’s date?
AlP: Today’s date is Saturday the 25th of January.
Other: Oh will we change the January bit?
AlP: Yeah. I’ve just been talking about January. I’m sorry. January 1943 I’ve been talking about. Let’s call it June.
Other: Alright. Good. And what season would that be?
AlP: What season?
AdP: That’s going to confuse him to.
AlP: It’s as cold as it could be. It must be winter.
AdP: We’re just talking about on the boat. On the way from Australia to the US when it was summer in Australia and then it was getting cold and they couldn’t figure out why. That’s literally what we were talking about as you walked through the door.
Other: Oh and so here I am. There’s no doubt here why it’s cold.
AdP: No.
AlP: No doubt here.
The sun is too far away from us.
AlP: Yeah.
Other: Now.
AlP: Yeah.
Other: You forget that sort of travel where you actually experience the changes as you go.
AdP: That’s right.
Other: Whereas you now get teleported from one side to the other and bang you’ve gone from summer to winter.
AdP: Well if you imagine the heat on this ship.
Other: Of course.
AlP: The heat of — the heat of January.
Other: Yeah.
AlP: The heat of January.
Other: Yes.
AlP: And the ship was heading in a southerly direction. We couldn’t understand why. Well we were dodging enemy, enemy shipping.
Other: Ok yeah. Yeah.
AlP: So we went right south of New Zealand.
Other: Yes.
AlP: And then gradually ending up towards America.
[Background chat and blood pressure checks etc]
Other: Well, it’s obviously an exciting story because your blood pressure is up a bit.
AlP: That’s right. I hope the blood pressure is down a bit. Not too far down though.
Other: No. Up a bit Alan. Up a bit.
AlP: Is it?
Other: Yes. It is.
AlP: Probably it’s because I’m excited talking to my friend.
Other: Yeah. That’s what I mean. Yeah. It’s all good.
AlP: It’s not every day I have a microphone pinned on me.
AdP: No.
Other: Adam are you doing this for your studies?
AdP: It’s a project for a group called the International Bomber Command Centre in the UK.
Other: Oh right.
AdP: They’re developing a digital archive of oral histories and scans of photos and logbooks and all that sort of stuff.
Other: So you’re an historian.
AdP: I’m not an historian. I’m actually an air traffic controller. But that’s another story. But deeply interested in the Bomber Command sort of idea and they got very excited when they found out that I lived in Melbourne because they said, ‘We don’t have an interviewer in Melbourne yet.’ So now I’ve done twenty three of them.
Other: Oh wow. So you would have heard some extraordinary stories.
AdP: There are some astonishing stories out there.
AlP: Oh yes.
Other: My, this gets a bit convoluted but it’s my sister’s father in law so my brother in law’s father. Whichever way you’d like to look at it. He was, well he not a commander. Who sits in the tail? A navigator?
AdP: The tail gunner sits in the tail.
AlP: Tail gunner.
AdP: Rear gunner.
Other: So he was a tail gunner. And in, is it G for George?
AlP: G-George yes that’s the famous.
Other: Yeah. That’s right. Because they restored it.
AdP: Yes.
Other: And he was the tail gunner for —
AdP: Very good.
Other: Yeah. So unusual in the fact that he could tell the story. That’s not so usual.
[interview resumes]
AdP: Where were we? We were zigzagging. It was getting colder.
AlP: It was getting colder. We came up and we stopped and we soon learned from word of gossip that we were at Pago Pago. Refuelling. Pago Pago was part of the port of Samoa. A Samoan port. Samoan America. American Samoa I should say. Samoa is an independent nation. It was a British colony. Part of it was American. Two islands. The second island was Pago Pago. So we were refuelling there so we realised we’d been south of New Zealand. Up here and we were now into the mid-Pacific. And we zigzagged all the way across there until we arrived in California another two and a bit weeks later having only once been alarmed that there was, could be enemy shipping around. Because as Japan was in the war they had a number of submarines known to be in The Pacific. And Germany had, from the beginning of the war and around the Australian coast even and sunk a lot of allied shipping with their raiders. Their war ships disguised as, as traders. Trading boats. Very humble trading boats. They were, they had, one of their bases was on the island of Goa which, the Portuguese positions off the coast, off the west coast of India. There’s a great story about that. About how [pause] oh it’s not my story. So we, we got through safely and landed there and went on to an American base, military base and stayed there for three days before we were entrained then to go up to, up to the east — west coast of California. Up into the next two states to the edge. To the border of Canada. Vancouver. To the city of Vancouver. That’s at the — British [pause] sorry. I’m trying to think it was the province of Canada it’s [pause] Never mind. Anyway, Vancouver was the city where we left the American train which was luxury. We’d had black American staff cleaning our shoes each day. Not that they got dirty because there was nowhere to walk. We stayed on the train all that time. We then entrained across to, across Canada on Canadian National Railway I think it was. On our way to drop off the bomb aimers, the wireless operators who would be trained at Calgary. At Calgary, we changed trains and headed north to Edmonton. Still in Alberta. The southern, the province of Alberta where we navs and bomb aimers were to do our training at Number 2 Air Observers School. 96 Course, Edmonton, Alberta. That took us a couple more days to get there. Big state. Big states those, those provinces. And that’s where we started in. By this time I guess we were to February, and perhaps late January and where ever we looked from the time we got out towards Calgary it was snow. There was snow. On top of that at Calgary there was more snow. It was snow from one region to another. There was snow for the next three months. How, we thought, can you learn to navigate over snow? There was nothing else, we thought, to be seen. Certainly not from the train. That was the reaction. Is that useful or not?
AdP: That was very useful. I like it. Ok. So how did you learn to navigate over snow, is the obvious question?
AlP: That was a good one. Well. Yes. We were now part of the Empire Air Training Scheme of course. We’d known a little about this in our, in our indoctrination. Here we gathered together with New Zealanders, with Canadians, with Brits who’d been sent over from Britain to Canada for their navigation training and their ITS. So we were all, we thought there would all be a bunch of eighteen years olds but we weren’t. There were fellows who were Australians in our, among ours number, we learned this on-board ship, who had been in the Middle East. In the army. In the AIF. And they had re-enlisted in the air force. They wanted to fly. There were new Zealanders also of the same category who’d been away. And they were, some of them were of a commissioned rank. And they were reduced to working with us AC2s. By this time we were LACs by the way. By the time we’d graduated from ITS we were promoted to LAC. Leading aircraftsmen. Interesting thing about the New Zealanders, by the way we all wanted to keep our own uniforms and our uniform being dark blue uniforms stood out like dog’s hind legs and but the New Zealanders they kept theirs too. Canadian kept theirs. And the British of course had the original. But the New Zealanders kept their rank as they were training. As did the Australians. Now, the Australians, their rank was a military rank. Whether they were lieutenants or captain or what. I don’t think they’d be any higher than a captain. They lost their, temporarily lost their rank but it was being held for them for when they graduated. If they didn’t graduate I suppose they’d still get it back. The New Zealanders kept their rank right through and they ate with the officer’s in the officer’s mess which didn’t worry us too much I suppose. So we started in a pretty luxurious kind of a station compared to what we’d been used to in ITS. We had real beds and sheets. We had our own shower rooms and so on. And then, and the sports facilities were very good. And being winter there was an ice rink. That was the tennis courts were covered over and the, and we were able to learn to, learn to skate. I’m not sure whether that was part of our training or part of our recreation. Studying we moved in to refreshments of stuff we learned at ITS. Then quickly moved into navigation and bomb aiming and the learning of the principals and the use. How we used the mathematics into, into our study now of the navigation in reality. It would include, by the way, astro navigation. So we were doing night flying as well as day. Day flying. So we used our maths, particularly the trigonometry for understanding triangulation which you need to, to navigate. You get, you need three points of reference and whether you are on the land or whether you’re land based with your, with your map reading. Or we learned map reading of course as a very basic principle. But to navigate you need three points of reference and you draw a line from those and where those three lines intersect is where you are on the land. Same principle when you’re doing astro navigation except you’re looking upwards rather than downwards. We didn’t have any radar there. We had, of course we had Morse code for the wireless operators to work on. I think we, I think we must have had staff wireless operators. We had staff pilots because there was no pilot training at Edmonton. Certainly had staff pilots. And they took us on their chosen pre-selected courses. A cross-country programme using a triangular one. We even, despite the snow, we did find points of reference. They were often wheat silos that could be identified from reference material that we had. There was a vast amount of wheat produced in Western Canada. Middle of Canada as well. We did a lot more practicals. Practical stuff on, on the ground in a simulated flight condition. A room set up with your desk and your implements which included [pause] straight, a straight rule. This is metric, metric by now. No. It wasn’t. No. No, it wasn’t. A ruler. A compass. A thing we called a computer which was actually a box, rectangular box with whatever inside. We didn’t ever know. But you pressed buttons and pulled levers and that showed on a screen where we were from the references we’d taken from this map reading or this site. Site thing. Of course I didn’t mention the, the [pause] instrument we used for photographing the stars.
AdP: Sextant.
AlP: Yes. The pause] what did you say?
AdP: A sextant maybe.
AlP: The sextant. The sextant of course, yes, the sextant. And we had a series of maps of course and we had, with our log book beside us and from here, from — the principle was that we read off our positions by taking into consideration wind velocity and direction. And which is, I think to say the direction is part of it. No it’s not. And our plotted course and see the variation. The difference between our course as to whether we instructed the pilot to fly and the actual track which we were to follow. So if, depending on the strength of the, of the velocity of the, of the wind we would allow a certain number of degrees to port or starboard of the one plotted on the track so that the wind would take us back and relocate us on, on course. When we say on course we really meant on track. And of course because there was an interval between the different readings of these sites we we’d seen on the map. The reference points. We had to plot our airspeed. Or what we believed was our ground and what we believed was our ground speed along the, along the track to make the appropriate adjustments and then still plan to be within three minutes of the, of ETA. Estimated time of arrival at the given point that we were on track for. So that, when the, in the Avro Anson was not very difficult because it wasn’t a very speedy. We travelled around about a hundred and forty, a hundred and fifty knots. I think. I don’t know. Do you know any better than that Adam?
AdP: That sounds about, about reasonable I think.
AlP: Yeah.
AdP: Something like that.
AlP: Yeah. So of course that became a bit easier in some respects. The ground was daylight flying as the snow melted. And it melted quite quickly. To our amazement.
[someone enters the room — recording paused]
AdP: Where weren’t we? The snow. The melting snow.
AlP: Yes. Melting snow. So the time was going past very quickly. Our bomb aiming testing was being, would also be included. Then again decided completely whether we’d all be, which of us would be navigators or bomb aimers. But that there was a chosen aiming point sometimes was connected with this exercise. Flying a navigation exercise. Sometimes just straight out from base. We dropped flour bombs would you believe? Twenty five pound flour bombs. And they, why they used flour because? Well they would break of course but they would leave a mark and that mark could be measured by ground staff from the point of, from the aiming point. The distance from the aiming point. And we were qualified. We were marked if you like by that, by our score on how close we were to that aiming point. That’s about all we did. Whether we did that at the end of an exercise. A navigation exercise or separately. It did vary. With, with astro navigation we did a lot more study. We had to night study in that. Because the earth is continually moving on its orbit and in relation to the rest of the stars of the firmament and the, and the various, and the North Star in particular varies. I think there’s four degrees in a year. Let me get this right. Four degrees either way of the North Pole. The North Pole is not strictly north anyway. And we were given logbooks. Remember the logarithm books you had at school? We were given those. That sort of book. And they made it, gave every, the relationship of every major star and the North Star and earth at any minute of the hour of the day in a particular month. I think, I think it’s as accurate as I can give it. But every day you saw something different. So we’d be out on a Monday night, for instance, out in the, in the airfields with our sextants and shooting three stars. The North Star first. Another one would be [pause] oh golly. Let me think of this a moment. The constellations I can remember clearly in view in my mind’s eye including the one we see here as the pot. It’s the only one that can be seen. The north ones we can see from here.
AdP: That’s right.
AlP: Anyway, we’d see two other stars. One to our north. North east and another perhaps to our south east of us or south west. And, and take the reading off the sextant and then plot. Plot it and then on across a map of our territory, of northern Canada. And then two minutes later plot one of the other ones. Plot that across the map. And I’m blowed if I can remember now where the third one — how, how we used that little log book to to tell us where we were exactly. You’ll have to go back to your friends with all the navigation equipment.
AdP: Yes.
AlP: He’ll tell you. It just escapes my mind. You know, we learned that. We spent weeks of that in the latter part of our course in, in Edmonton because it was going to be important in Europe we thought. So it was told. And we did our night flying and with, with that sextant again out through the blister on top of the Avro Anson. We had, we had a better and more modern sextant, a sextant. It plotted sixty shots in a minute. It took sixty shots and when we plotted it, plotted the average of that on to our chart I can remember doing that. But when we did flying and the aircraft was moving you don’t get a perfect cross. So you can try and get a cross like that and how big it is or how small it is depends on the weather. How much you’ve being buffeted by the wind. So it was a bit haphazard. We, so we, this took us now well into June and we had our examinations in June. I finished up in hospital just about the time of the examination. I’d had an accident. Not a flying accident. An accident on the ground and injured my leg and I was admitted for a few days. So I had a little bit of extra time to study. Went through, did our exams and came the time of graduation. A party was held. It was great. We’d been saving up the liquor, the alcohol, for some weeks. And I didn’t drink. Those who did didn’t need it evidently. So the party was held and we had friends in Edmonton that we invited and came but the graduation ceremony was before that. I had some photos of all the graduates and I’ve lost them since my wife died and we closed up our house. Sold our house. And I don’t know where those things, some of those things went. Anyway, I graduated as a navigator with an N wing and sergeant’s stripes. Two or three of our team, of our course graduated as pilot officers. Maybe. Maybe more than three. They were the ones who got the best marks in the course. In the written course I guess and their performances over their charts. Their charts were all examined at the end of your flights and you were marked on those too, no doubt. So I was ready to leave Canada as a sergeant navigator. A week later we were, went by train to Toronto and down to New York for some furlough. Some leave. A week in New York. In New Jersey where we were hosted by American people. Great fun. Great time. We were robbed by taxi drivers. We were travelling in a group in a taxi. Charged each one for the fare on the meter, lousy. That was the only bad thing I’ve got to say. Climbed. Climbed the Empire Building. Empire [pause] what’s it called?
AdP: Empire State Building.
AlP: Empire State Building. Taken up there on the lift. Got taken up in the actual head of the Statue of Liberty. Climbed the ladders inside that. These were privileges. Really great. Then at the end of that time we went back by train. Back down to Halifax in, what’s the state? What’s the province?
AdP: Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia.
AlP: Nova Scotia. That’s right.
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Down to Nova Scotia. On board a big ship. A very big ship. A lot of troops. A lot of American troops and a few, quite a few Empire Air State, Empire Air Training people from different places. Courses terminating about that time. And we zig zagged across the North Atlantic to arrive in, by this was summertime now of course. July. August. It was, it was early August we arrived in, at Liverpool in Manchester. Near Manchester of course. And from Liverpool bussed across to a holding station called Padgate. Well known. It’s a suburb. Quite a big suburb of Manchester. A Mancunian friend of mine knows it well. We were there for two weeks. No. We were there for one week. Why would they hold us here for? We want to get to the war. We’re here for the war. We were trained. We were quite excited. We didn’t see any effects of the war yet. And then we were summoned and entrained to go down to London. That’s when we saw the effects of the war. It was appalling. We, it’s quite a long journey from, from Manchester to London and we passed through a lot of towns. Saw some damage. But London. The thing is, that grieved us most there was, it still brings tears to my eyes. We weren’t going to stay in London. London we were only passing through. We were going to Victoria Station to go down to Brighton, and every station we passed through on the underground there was lined along double decker bunks. On every platform of every station. People bombed out. We had seen a little of the bomb damage at Euston. Was it Euston Station? I think it was where we embarked. Where we disembarked we saw a bit of damage there but by the time we got in to [pause] to Victoria we saw a lot more outside. Above ground. Down to Brighton. Down there for two weeks. Why? Holding us there at the two hotels. The [pause] Royal and the, I forget what it was. Air force property, RAF property for the duration of the war. And there was some damage in Brighton. There was some damage in most places I guess. We, the Blitz was long since over but the V1s were about. And we could go up and sit on the top deck of the, of the hotels, and we did this, watching the V1s go over, the buzz bombs, filling in time, filling in time. Eventually we got told to go on leave in London. Somewhere we could go on leave and I chose to go to London. I wanted to see more of the damage. I wanted to see St Paul’s. I wanted to see all those things that we’d learned about at school. And then I saw the damage, extensive damage around St Paul’s. Man. And, and along the river. Well, we took off. We were entrained after that two weeks to go up to north east England. Up to [pause] to do a commando course. Again, we were saying, some of us we were together from Somers, still together, quite a few of us. And what are we doing here? This commando course. The town, I can’t think of the name of the town but it was a town. It had a lot of damage as well but the air force had taken over quite a bit of it for accommodation for the commando training and other army uses as well. We got halfway through that course and we were called back and they said, ‘You’re leaving tomorrow and you’re flying. You’re going across to North Wales.’ So can you imagine? Manchester, London, Brighton, up here to North England and across here. A triangle. I used a triangle for navigation. And there we went back, back on to a little place called Llandwrog. Got to say it properly —L L A N D W R O G. Welsh town. Welsh township nearby. This air force station again had Avro Ansons and it was an Advanced Flying Unit. AFU. And we had to do a refresher on what we had. All our flying, navigation flying in, in Edmonton, but much compressed. Started off with day flying and, and map reading. That was easy enough. And even, even reading day flying using points of reference because there were so many of them in the North West Wales, North Wales and the Western England. Manchester, Lancaster, Lancashire and those, those counties. And I’m not sure, I don’t think I did any astro there. Three weeks or four weeks there and we were, we were discharged if you like. Taken out of there, going to Number 17 OTU. Operational Training Unit of course. Now where was that? [pause] It was in the north, in the Midlands. I can’t think where it is but you’d find it easy enough.
AdP: 17 OTU is it?
AlP: 17 OTU.
AdP: I can’t remember off the top of my head.
AlP: And there we, we met a lot of Canadians, Americans, sorry Brits, more Australians, Kiwis and so on. And the day after we arrived, like two days after we arrived we were told to gather at, our group anyway, we were told to gather at such and such a hangar. Went over to the hangar there. A crowd of blokes around there, and quite a lot of Australians. They said, ‘You can find yourself a crew there. Pilots have a look. Have a look around you pilots and see if you can find yourself a crew.’ That’s how, and that’s how we were mustered, gathered there. We picked out. An Australian bloke came over to me and he said, ‘Have you got anyone to fly with? Have you got a pilot to go with?’ I said, ‘Not yet. I’ve only just arrived.’ He said, ‘Where were you trained?’ I told him where. He said, ‘Are you alright?’ ‘Yeah,’ I said, ‘I’m alright I think. I got very strong marks.’ ‘Would you like to join me?’ I said, ‘Ok. Yeah. Thanks.’ So then he gathered his bomb aimer and his wireless operator and two gunners just likewise, six crew. So we started flying in a couple of days time and we were told, and it was lousy weather even though it was now September. It was lousy weather. We were told to, not to fly if we caught a cold. Too many people were catching cold. Our crew were dead keen. We wanted to get ahead and I caught a cold. And so stupid me. And my ears blew out. One ear did. My right ear blew out. It was so painful it was awful and I got deafened. And of course had to report sick and I was grounded. Grounded for six weeks. I said goodbye to my crew, they gathered another navigator. They moved on. So six weeks. I don’t know what I did. I don’t remember what I did. I just floated around at that time. Reporting sick, reported until I was well enough and there was another mustering of trainees at the hangar. And I gathered. I gathered. I was summoned to gather with them and an Englishmen, tall Englishmen named Johnny Bulling, Flight lieutenant, approached me. I thought, flight lieutenant? He must be good. He must have a lot of experience. And I said, ‘Yes, sir.’ He said, ‘You can drop the sir.’ He said, ‘Have you crewed up yet?’ I said, ‘Not yet sir. I’ve been on a crew. I’ve done some flying but I was grounded through a bit of illness.’ He said, ‘Want to join me?’ I said, ‘Thank you.’ And that’s how he gathered his crew. Jock someone or other. I’m trying to think of his surname — pilot officer bomb aimer. He gathered him in. Bernie Alden Hogan, Australian sergeant wireless operator or air gunner, gathered him in. And then two Londoners, Ernie, no, not Ernie. Peter and [pause] who was the other one? I can’t think of his name. The other one was about thirty years of age. He was much the older of our crew. They gathered. We gathered them in. And the next day we were doing circuits and bumps in a, on a Wimpy. And that’s how our crew started.
AdP: What did you think of a Wellington?
AlP: Pardon?
AdP: What did you think of the Wellington?
AlP: I thought it was a lovely big aircraft. That’s what I thought at that time. I had heard bad stories about it. But it was a bit cramped in my space but what I started to learn was that funny instrument. It looked like, I was going to say, with a small TV but it was a small screen. What was that? It was called a Gee. What that’s about? That’s when I started to learn about the Gee navigation. And the other one there was the one with the [pause] that transmitted a signal and brought back another picture of the land underneath. Well that was wonderful. It makes it a lot easier to do your map reading. Except you couldn’t use it over enemy territory because it transmitted a signal and you, you were a sitting duck. So, but it was handy once you got back to, back home base. And then we started to learn Gee navigation and I loved it. It was great stuff. I mean you could, you plotted these three signals. Do you understand it at all Adam?
AdP: Only, only very vaguely.
AlP: Well it has three transmitters. One in the southernmost England, one in the Midlands and one in the north.
[recording paused for lunch]
AdP: So we’re resuming after lunch. We were talking about Gee I think.
AlP: On reflection Adam I think we might have been introduced to it over at Llandwrog. At AFU. Just introduced so that we knew that there was more to it than we’d been doing in Canada. There was no mention that we were doing any astro navigation. So when we got to OTU and went out with my first crew and then, of course after I was grounded, my second crew. Six weeks interval is a long time in a war. In an air war anyway and I mean think of the time that was wasted by the time we landed. It probably amounted to about twelve, fourteen weeks lost battle time if you like. Lost purpose time. Anyway, I guess we did strengthen our muscles a little bit with our course of body training at commando course. So, I’m with my second crew now. Johnny Bulling’s crew and we were given a lot of a programme ahead, a lot of cross country flying. Incidentally, I should remember about 17 OTU. I can’t think of the name of the station. The satellite station was Silverstone. Now, Silverstone has since been a motor raceway for many decades. So if you find out what county Silverstone’s in, Silverstone Raceway, you’ll find where Number 17 OTU is and what county. I have a feeling it might be Lincolnshire, but no I’m not sure really. So then it was, by this time it was October. Weather’s getting bad, quite bad. We were flying in rotten conditions. Wind, rain, sleet and snow. So on. And we finished at OTU. Actually by this time we’d moved over to the satellite. I don’t know why that happened. Anyway, we did. And we were sent on leave. Sent on leave. Six weeks. Six days I think. So Johnny said, ‘What you are going to do?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. What do you reckon?’ He said, ‘If you’d like to come over we can go to Devon and get warm because this is shocking, this stuff.’ I said, ‘Right we will.’ So we went off on leave. I went off with him and the other Englishmen went off to their home places no doubt, and Jock the Scotsman. And I don’t know what Bernie did. I think he had a girlfriend somewhere. And so we went to London. We said we’ll stay over in London for a night. Go to a show. So we, we, got digs, a room, a room in somewhere out at Earl’s Court, which is West End. And spent the night there and that night I bounced out of bed. I remember clearly I landed on the floor. ‘What’s wrong?’ A V1, V2 — the second rocket. The long ones, the big self-propelled, landed. Sent out from the coast of Normandy and landed into London. They sent, they sent hundreds of those. This is, this is the successor to the V2s which were less efficient, still pretty nasty. And it landed not far from us evidently and it was a heck of an explosion and it bounced me out of bed. So, I don’t think I slept any more that night waiting for the next lot to come. Fortunately that landed in the Thames somewhere. I can’t imagine which direction it came from. Anyway it was said many of those V2 rockets landed in less serious or less serious targets than the Germans hoped. The next day we headed south, down. Took the train down to Devon and we stayed there at a — walked and looked up the street. Walked up the street. Found a hotel. Found we could get a room there and we stayed there for six days. Swimming on the coast down at the beach. Actually that afternoon we stripped off. Johnny put on, put on civilian pants and I didn’t have any civilian pants but I had my spare uniform pants so I didn’t worry about it. Went down and laid down on the beach and did a bit of sunbathing. The tide came in on us. We got wet but anyway we worked that out in the night. The next day we went walking. We did a lot of walking that week. It was excellent. I’ve written a story about our encounter with a land, a groundsman, who caught us walking through these fields. He was [pause] we were heading back in late afternoon, heading back to the hotel in the township. And we were running a bit late. We had walked a bit too far and we were walking and this fellow came around the corner behind a hedge with a shotgun cocked over his arm and he said, ‘What be thee doing?’ Well, we got a shock you see. And we said, oh Johnny said, ‘We’re just walking back to our hotel. We’re on leave.’ I don’t think we were in uniform. We were probably only in trousers and shirt. It was lovely weather. Beautiful. And he said, ‘Well thee can’t be doing that here. Now get thee off this land.’ And I got cheeky. I said, ‘Why? We aren’t doing any harm. We’re only going to walk in a straight line. It’s too round about on the road. We get back quicker this way. In time for dinner.’ ‘I don’t care what thee be thinking. Get thee off this land.’ I said, ‘Who said we should get off this land.’ ‘This be my lord’s land. Now get thee off.’ And we did. We did. Very, very belligerent he was. But I thought well if they can be that belligerent as civilians we should win this war.
AdP: [laughs] Love it.
AlP: So we returned to our given destination which was 1661 HCU at a place called Winthorpe. Do you know it?
AdP: I do.
AlP: You know I lay awake for an hour last night trying to think of that.
AdP: Oh dear.
AlP: I did. Winthorpe. I thought of all sorts. Winthorne? No that doesn’t sound not right. What sort of –? And I think that’s, what county’s that in? Can you remember?
AdP: It’s near Newark.
AlP: Near Newark is it?
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: New Castle.
AdP: Nottinghamshire maybe. I don’t know.
AlP: New Castle.
AdP: I’ve no idea.
AlP: That’s the castle that’s on one of the brands of cigarettes. So there we were. We lined up there and I saw my first Lancaster.
AdP: What did you think the first time you saw a Lancaster?
AlP: Wow. What a machine. I still think of it. I saw it in London a couple of, four years ago. Saw it in Canberra again. G for George. I don’t know. So we did circuits and bumps the next day and Johnny hadn’t, I think he’d seen them before but he hadn’t flown them before. So we went around and around around and around. I was sure we had to swing the prop for that for the, for the compass. I don’t think. I think it was an advanced compass. Anyway, we got inside it and I thought it looked, it was massively crammed, my gee it was cramped. And I was overwhelmed again. ‘Am I responsible for this aircraft? Am I? Have I got the authority on this wonderful machine?’ I was, even now I’m enthralled and we set off to do circuits and bumps and then did our position. Got filled in with our positions on the aircraft to — we added another member here by the way. This was when Peter Smith came in, went to our crew as air [pause] well virtually co-pilot but he was called —
AdP: Flight engineer.
AlP: What was he called?
AdP: Flight engineer.
AlP: Engineer. Flight engineer, Flight engineer, that’s right. We had slightly different positions. I was sitting right behind the pilot as the navigator and the wireless op behind. Funny thing in our crew, you know. We were the two Australians but we weren’t good buddies. I don’t know why but he was less than friendly but he was co-operative and we had to work a lot together. But Jock, the Scotsman, the co-pilot, the err the bomb aimer, he was very co- operative. The air gunners were wonderful young blokes. Johnny and I got on very well. I must tell you. Go back to when we were in London. We were walking along the street together. Along Fleet Street actually up from Australia House. I went to see if there was any mail for me. The mail was sometimes delayed as we were moving around. And walking along and we were stopped by a corporal with a service policeman arm band, ‘Excuse me sir,’ he said to Johnny, ignoring me, ‘It is not permissible for an NCO to walk with a commissioned officer.’ And I was ready to explode. And Johnny said, ‘Quite right corporal. You are quite right. Flight Sergeant Pugh you will fall in behind and at my command we will quick march. Quick march.’ So we walked up Fleet Street marching. He did it. He did it. We got around the corner and stopped it. Wondered what people thought of these stupid fellas. We can’t win a war with these sort of fellows. Anyway, we were —that was just one digression. He was a good artist. He used to do portraits and he was excellent. He did, he did a book of illustrations for his job, his profession. And we used to write. Write poems together. Write songs together. Make up songs as we were going along. We saw one fellow come along the street that day. A little civilian in some sort of a suit. He had a tiny moustache like a toothbrush, and he held his head upright. And Johnny said, ‘There’s that fellow that looks like he’s got a smell under his nose. And I said, there was current song then, “I’ll walk alone.” I don’t know if you know that song, “I’ll walk alone”, a war song anyway. And so we, and we added the lines as we walked, “I’ll walk alone because even my best friends won’t tell me, yet I know they could smell me. It seems I have BO. Oh yes I know. I’ll walk alone.”
[someone enters the room. Recording paused]
AdP: We were talking about, oh you were telling me the song about BO.
AlP: Oh yes. I’ll walk alone because even my best friends won’t tell me. Even though they could smell me. It seems I had BO. Oh yes I know. I’ll walk alone. Although though I try my own preparation. Still I smell like a station. Or like a zoo. What can I do? No one will come near me. And I wonder why. Sometimes I smell myself. I’ve no one to cheer me. So until I die I suppose I will always be on the shelf. I walk alone. I walked alone until somebody told me at last boy. Now at last I have a wife boy. I am not alone.” That was paraphrased on a song, “I walk alone until you come back from the war” and that sort of stuff. So it was pretty, pretty cheeky of us. And we did this walking along the street in London. No wonder they won the war. They wanted to get away from us. Are you still there Adam?
AdP: I’m still here. Certainly am. What other sorts of things did you get up to on leave?
AlP: On leave? Well we had dates with girls. We certainly did that. We found there’s a Cricklewood Palace somewhere out in North London. It was a very popular dance hall and whenever I was in London I’d go down there. I met a girl there and she was, I found her interesting and she worked in one of the big retail stores in London. One of the big names. And as I was working in Coles I was part of the Coles organisation. At that stage just an ordinary hand in a country town but going back to being in the management training plan. So she and I got friendly. And when I went down to London I’d pick her up and we’d go to a dance out there together. It was a very popular place but unfortunately one night a brawl broke out. We were a bunch of, I don’t know, a bunch of Brits and Australians and there was some, we were all in uniform and there was a brawl against some Americans. The Yanks of course were subject to being attacked. Sometimes they attacked some of us if we gave them any cheek. It was unfortunate. There were two wars going on. There were a lot of Americans in Britain at the time. Some back on leave, some back wounded, some ready to go out to the front again. They lost heavily in the war. But you know the biggest single unit loser in World War Two? [pause] Bomber Command. We lost more men and crews in proportion to our numbers. I think, I think it was there were a hundred and twenty five thousand members of Bomber Command. That might have included ground staff, I’m not sure. You might be able to check.
AdP: No. That’s aircrew.
AlP: That’s aircrew.
AdP: Aircrew only. Yeah.
AlP: I’ve heard of fifty two [pause] fifty two thousand. Fifty five thousand perished. There were ten thousand Australians among those. And four thousand, no four hundred, no. Wait a minute, four thousand two hundred of us didn’t return, so that’s forty two percent. Fifty five percent was the loss ratio for the, it might have been less than fifty five out of a hundred and twenty five. Over fifty percent anyway. We were the biggest losers in proportion. What else did we do on leave? We cycled. We went on, went on trips up to the Lake District. Things like that. Sometimes together as two or three of us. Sometimes alone. Met a lot of interesting people when you go with your peers. Played tennis when we could. Played cricket when we could. I went to the first test match after the war. We’ll talk about it a bit later. But you ask a question.
AdP: Where did you — where and how did you live on the stations?
AlP: We lived in Nissen huts mostly. They were comfortable. We had blankets. Didn’t have sheets. That I can recall anyway. The ablution huts were commodious. We had sports facilities there and of course there was, we could, there was no drill required of us unless we misbehaved. Once we were in combat mode. But we, we had the sergeant’s mess of course and the officer’s mess. We, we made friends across, across the barriers of nation. You know we had English friends, New Zealand friends, even though they weren’t necessarily of our own crew. But Johnny and I and our crew often went out as a group to a pub, and say outside Newark for instance. As a full crew there at one of the pubs in Newark. I remember one day, one night we were there and sitting on the hob beside the fire in the, in the bar were two old gentlemen in uniform. In the red jacket of the Chelsea Pensioners. Do you know about the Chelsea Pensioners? They were down in London. North London. Is Chelsea in North London? I’m not sure. But anyway there’s a Chelsea Pension House and old, some, how they qualify to get in I don’t know but former servicemen from World War One inhabited that place. And they could travel around the countryside if they were fit but you’d often see them in London walking in the city. Anyway, these two fellows were sitting there, sitting there by the hob of the fire with the half pot in their hand and a poker in this hand, poking the fire. Loud hissing. And drink their warmed beer, warm mild, not bitter, mild. And so Johnny photographed one of them. Not photographed, he drew one of them. He always carried a pad in his jacket pocket.
AdP: Oh wow.
AlP: And oh it was, it was so good. And so he would, we’d go to other places and he would do drawings. Artistic. Artistic work. I lost track of him, I lost track of my whole crew. I’m sorry about that. Yes. There were plenty of dances in the villages and towns as well and pubs were very popular.
AdP: What, what sorts of things happened in pubs apart from Chelsea pensioners with their pokers?
AlP: Well [laughs] you didn’t see many of those. Well, sometimes there were disputes, a little too much drink. There was a tendency among aircrews to live now for tomorrow we may die. We weren’t like that. And we weren’t total abstainers by any means. But we were [pause] we had our eyes on the future. It was said and I think Bernie, the other Australian in the crew, he spent less time with us in, on leave than anyone else did. Jock was a little bit heavy on the whisky. He loved his whisky but he was a Scotsman. He was probably brought up on the stuff. We didn’t see a lot of offensive drunkenness. It sometimes happened in the mess. A bit of disputing went on. I’m not sure why. It’s too far back to remember.
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Motivations. Anyway.
AdP: What — you’ve mentioned earlier briefly that you did one operation.
AlP: Yeah. That came —
AdP: Tell me about that.
AlP: Well that’s coming up shortly.
AdP: Alright.
AlP: We was looking forward to linking up, I think the squadron that was on, co-habited our airport — airfield was 217. An English squadron. You might check that. I’ve got a feeling it’s the, we were certainly I wasn’t going to be in one of the Australian squadrons. Incidentally did you know that the Australian squadrons were not as self-governed as the Canadian Squadron?
AdP: Yes.
AlP: You knew that.
AdP: Yes.
AlP: That was a pity. I wonder why. Anyway, that’s beside the point. So we, we had a series of cross-country’s to do. Much the same as AFU. OTU rather. But we were across to the Irish Sea. Out a bit to the, into the North Atlantic. Sometimes down to Scotland and that way. Sometimes. And up The Channel. But never, never in to enemy occupied territory. But to be looking, what I was looking forward to was the forthcoming and necessary bullseye over London. Have you heard about that?
AdP: Yes. Yeah. Tell us. Tell us more about it.
AlP: Well, we were to go out on this exercise over to the Irish Sea. Up, out again to the North Atlantic to points of, no points of vision, just points on the, on the radar. Out and then across towards the Bay of Biscay and then to another focal, another point of time and place. And then over the coast, south coast of England, not far from Brighton and Hove. More nearer Hove. And it was a given ETA at each point. As we were flying out over the Midlands and out towards Ireland I asked Bernie for, for a position. He said, ‘I’m in a mess here.’ I looked around and he’s got his radio in pieces. He said, ‘Something’s melted here.’ And so I reported it to skipper. Skipper said, ‘Shall we? Shall we continue? Do you want to continue navigator?’ We were all very formal in the air. I said, ‘What do you think Bernie?’ He said, ‘Give me a little while. See if I can get it together.’ So we got out almost to the west coast of England and he said, ‘I can’t do it.’ So the skipper said, ‘How’s your, how’s your Gee box?’ I said, ‘It’s working fine skipper. It’s ok.’ He said, ‘What about H2S?’ That’s the one with the picture on it. Bringing the picture up from the ground. I said, ‘Yeah. It’s fine. Is fine.’ He said, ‘Well we can’t use it too close over the water.’ I said, ‘No. I realise that. It would only show you lots of waves.’ I said, ‘We’re alright on the Gee. It’s ok.’ ‘What’s your recommendation?’ I took a deep breath. I said, ‘I suggest we proceed and we’ll go by dead reckoning.’ ‘DR it is then.’ And then we took it, we arrived at a point out in the Irish Sea. Hopefully, it was the one we wanted. I was confident on my charts that it was and I gave him the change of course. And the weather was good. Not a lot of heavy wind. We were flying at eighteen thousand. Sixteen or eighteen thousand and it can be tricky up there. It can be quite different from down low. It can be quite contrary in fact. So, anyway, we went down below in due course, another hour and a half or something. Maybe two hours. I’ve forgotten now. The next point out in the middle of the Atlantic you see because nowhere else could be seen anywhere. Everyone reported water. Water. So my ETA was, was accurate I felt. And so we headed off towards the Bay of Biscay. This might be different. And anyway it turned out almost flying due east. Two seventy to that point. Turned again. Now was the test. We were on ETA down to the coast of England near, as I said, near Hove. ‘See the coastline?’ ‘Yes. I can see the coastline.’ Surely took bearing on the actual physical bearing, visual bearing on the point where you expected to cross and we were within the three minutes of ETA after flying for, I think it was five hours. What a sigh of relief. So I let the skipper know all was well. The crew were relaxed. We had nothing other than dead reckoning. And then to London. Well, I don’t know whether we changed height but the London was to counteract the balloons which were always there and they were put up. The lights. Searchlights. And as we were getting towards south London we started to see the searchlights combing the sky. Quite a lot of them. And then we saw some fighters. We could see flashlights in there. There were fighters in the air and we had to dodge all this, get through to drop a photographic bomb if you know what I mean, over Green Park. The centre where the target of London. Right near Buckingham Palace. You know where it is? And we, so Johnny said, ‘Prepare for evasive action,’ and we started evasive action. Right. ‘Down to port,’ down we’d go port side. ‘Levelling out. Forward. Ahead fifteen thousand. Fourteen thousand. Climbing to starboard.’ This was yelling. We were all getting, we were all hearing this and this was anger. We were going to be five times G. Five gravity. Five times gravity, and we got through it. It was a magnificent experience but horrifying, but [unclear] was going up and down like this. And then up and down like this with a ,with somebody and we were dropped, Jock dropped his photo. Took his camera shots over the target and then returned to base. Thank heaven that was over. And that was as exciting as it was going to be I thought except until we were just called out to go out over enemy territory because those searchlights are horrifying. Terrifying. We were graded on that, I don’t know, I forgot the score but we did quite well evidently. Particularly as we did it without really navigation check-ups on the way. See my heart’s pounding already. It was a few days later we were called to join a squadron. I don’t know whether it was 217 or what. We were making, making a raid over Southern Germany. Now, you mentioned earlier that someone had done a raid over — your uncle?
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Over Berchtesgaden.
AdP: Berchtesgaden. No.
AlP: Berchtesgaden.
AdP: That was another of my interview subjects. Yeah.
AlP: Oh was it?
AdP: Yeah.
AlP: Now I don’t know if it was there. It was somewhere over the southern Ruhr it was going to be I guess and the weather had turned foul. It was now. I’m trying to think back to my logbook because I’m so sorry I lost that. I think it must have been April. And so we loaded up, bombed up and gone through out processes ready for the real thing.
AdP: And you were in a Lancaster by this stage?
AlP: Yeah. The Lancaster.
AdP: Yes.
AlP: Oh yes. In a Lancaster. We were briefed. Had our charts in front of us. Taken to our separate briefings of course. We always were. And brought back as a crew for crew briefing. Then into line and we become part of an attack. I think probably a number of squadrons and their satellites like we were a satellite. And we flew up, up to a fictitious point at ten thousand feet somewhere over the North Sea, or maybe over Holland. Then a change of course on a very bad night. Not only a bad night. Pitch black. Pitch black night. No moon, which of course a moonlight night is too dangerous for a, for you being a target to stop. But it was nothing. It was bad weather. We changed course heading [pause] heading south from there with the somewhere about two, twenty three thirty degrees something like that. East. And southeast. At, to twenty thousand feet and then joined. We must have been, we must have had, but we acted independently because we joined a flight group there and then changed course for the target and then got the call back. We were trip aborted, and so we were out by this time. Out by about two hours I guess. And skipper took the, the bomb aimer, the wireless operator took the code message and passed it on to the skipper. It was a great disappointment. We were there. We were scared. We were dead scared. No doubt about that. It was going to be out first trip but there was no option. So I had to set a course to come back and I’ve forgotten — it was a deviate, a deviant course. And I think we were just sort of grieving this all the way back. And one thing we had overlooked or didn’t know. We should have been aware of. Even though we had IFF on our aircraft, all our aircraft. Identification Friend or Foe. What had been happening while the Luftwaffe attack force or defence force was much depleted they were still shooting down aircraft. They had new tactics. They were flying with their FW190s with guns, cannons pointing upwards. They’d fly under our aircraft going or returning from attacks, from bombing raids. There was one of the things they were doing. And even with depleted numbers they were successful. They were very fast with their 109s, ME109s of course. And there was rumours they had a faster one but the 190s were fast enough. But what they were doing was following and getting into, into returning groups. Flights and squadrons. By now a bit, perhaps being a bit careless and not looking out, the gunner, not a lot to look at. And they were picking off returning aircraft crossing The Channel. And so we were approaching a town and we could see the lights of home sort of thing. Some lights over in Britain. Then suddenly Peter, the rear gunner yelled out, ‘Skipper, there’s someone, there’s someone firing verey lights here. I’d better report.’ Johnny said, skipper said, ‘Well what are they? Green or red, rear gunner?’ ‘They’re white skipper.’ ‘White. There aren’t white verey lights. They’re not verey lights gunner, that’s tracer.’ We’ll scramble. And we did scramble and we avoided it. If they were tracer, if they were attack aircraft. I don’t know what else could they be? Johnny couldn’t think of anything else. We scrambled to another airfield. We got a message out. They lit up for us with searchlights. No. Not searchlights. Lights of the trucks and so on outlined the airfield. The airstrip. And the next day we flew back to base and we weren’t reprimanded. So then it wasn’t long after that came May the 6th. Or was it the 5th. Anyway, the word was getting around things were, things were but they were much more shorter trips. And they were, the attacks were along the, along, I think enemy ground forces. And we didn’t get another trip. Word came out Hitler had suicided. Then the word came out — Admiral Donitz was it became the vice chancellor? He took over and he surrendered. And our crew were told well actually you may now accept to disarm. Not disarmament. To [pause] you may return to civvy life. Demobilisation. And they just broke our crew up like that. The Australians — they sent us to a place called Worksop which was further over. Cambridgeshire way I think. And we were told that Australians, the Australians on our HSU, HCU I should say or were English squadrons. Navigators, probably navigators, bomb aimers, wireless operators taken to special school for a secret training school. Ours was training for navigation and we were to be retrained for the war against the Japanese. And so we were given leave then for a time. A few weeks. I think a fourteen day pass and we were able to go to London. We went on VE day. Actual VE day. We were in a vast crowd of troops and civilians of many nationalities. Air force, navy, military forces travelling from all corners around to Buckingham Palace. And I can remember walking up the [pause] what’s, what’s the big, big parade up into, up into Buckingham Palace. Anyway, up to the threshold of Buckingham Palace. And there were hundreds. Seemed to be hundreds of thousands of us all around Buckingham palace waiting for the king and queen and the two princesses to come out. We spent hours there cheering like mad, waving our flags and I looked around and there were so many air force uniforms with so many different badges on their shoulders. Not only us from the Commonwealth or from the Empire but there were pilots, and air gunners and all kinds. Ground staff. They were there too. From the European nations. Those that had managed to get out of Europe before Hitler had conquered their country and they were still able to fight on. So that was the end of that. And we went down to Worksop to do the study. And we were six weeks into the course and by this time now we were in to April/May. May/June/July. The, the war was weakening in in Southeast Asia. And then we got the word in early August, an atom bomb had been dropped. We heard that this atom bomb was going to be something in the future. We heard about this. Then we heard another one. We were still in the workshop in this place. In this school. And the message came Japan had surrendered. The end of the war. The Englishmen out of Bomber Command well certainly some of them might have been, stayed and been trained for going to Burma. But we were certainly not going there. And we were then equipped with paintbrushes and tools and anything to fill in our time on demolishing or painting or building at this station. Incidentally, we had already celebrated with a bunch of Australians the night before VE day at somewhere just near [pause] near the airfield. Near HCU anyway our 1661. The castle. Where the castle was. Anyway, they gave us leave again to report back to, back to Australian headquarters, Australia House and where we collected our pay book. [unclear] sorry. Again. And we got, our mail was gathered to there. And then they told us we could get, join a, join in a find a job. A civvy. [unclear] speech is getting [unclear] a civvy course. And I got a job in an [pause] a course. An office in a big factory in the Elephant and Castle. A big, big factory. And they were short of staff and that’s was nearly two months of pay, extra money. I was able to opt to be employed. I was living at the home. An Australian House place that they appointed for. Now my voice is going. My voice is going. And it was, wasn’t until November. Then again focus on another [pause]. Ship. A ship.
AdP: We might, we might leave it there. We’ve been going for a while now.
AlP: I’m sorry.
AdP: That’s alright.
AlP: I’m losing my [pause] Anyway, I trained, ship home. Home in January again. Again [unclear] away. With my family. Home. And I was back to my job. A month later. My home. Civvy job. Boy. It took a hard job getting over the same job. The home job. Home to my mum and dad with my bike. At work. Back to [unclear]. Leave it at that. You’re right. Adam.
AdP: That’s a good idea. So thank you very much. Shake your hand.
AlP: Thank you so much.
AdP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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APughA160625
Title
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Interview with Alan Pugh
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:12:20 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2017-06-25
Description
An account of the resource
Alan was born in Western Victoria in Australia. After two years in the Air Training Corps, he asked to join the Royal Australian Air Force. He was selected to go to Somers No. 2 Initial Training School on No. 46 course. Alan chose to be a navigator/air observer. He was sent to No. 2 Air Observers’ School in Edmonton, Canada, as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme. Alan details the training he received in navigation and bomb aiming, including astronavigation. He describes his equipment and navigation in practice. After graduating as a sergeant navigator, he sailed to the UK.
After a holding station in Padgate, Alan went to Brighton. En route, he witnessed the devastating effects of war in London. He saw some V-1s in Brighton. He did a commando course in the North East before going to RAF Llandwrog, an Advanced Flying Unit. He learnt Gee and H2S navigation systems. Alan was posted to No. 17 Operational Training Unit on Wellingtons. Because of illness, he had to crew up a second time. The satellite station was at RAF Silverstone. Alan recounts some of his activities on leave.
Alan was posted to the 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe where he first encountered Lancasters. A flight engineer was added to their crew.
Alan discusses the large losses of Bomber Command and also Australians.
He details a “bullseye” exercise to London when the radio malfunctioned and Alan had to navigate by dead reckoning. A few days later, they had to abort an attack on the Ruhr. They were almost hit from below on their return journey.
When Germany surrendered, the Australians were sent to RAF Worksop. Alan spent VE Day in London. After the atomic bomb on Japan, Alan briefly found a job in London before sailing back to Australia.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--London
Wales--Gwynedd
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Canada
Alberta
Alberta--Edmonton
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
17 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
fear
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
mess
military living conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Silverstone
RAF Turweston
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Worksop
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/324/3480/ARodgersR170220.2.mp3
67c5ef52bd3e8e546995b948eeec9b4c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Rodgers, Ronald
R Rodgers
Description
An account of the resource
Two items, An oral history interview and some photographs concerning Ronald Rodgers (432573 Royal Australian Air Force). He served as a mid upper gunner with 460 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ronald Rodgers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rodgers, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MacCartney, the interviewee is Ron Rodgers. The interview is taking place at Mr Rodgers home in Southport, Queensland on the 20th of February 2017. Ron lets –
RR: And the spelling of it is R,O,D.
JM: R,O,D. Yes, we’ve got that yes, yes. Now we’ll start at the beginning Ron.
RR: OK.
JM: Back in 1924, and you were born in Cowra?
RR: Yep.
JM: And did that mean that you spent some time in Cowra or your early years?
RR: I grew, I went to school in Cowra. And then I joined the, it was in those days the Union Bank, which became the ANZ afterwards.
JM: Um.
RR: And then I was seventeen by this stage and I was transferred to Caloundra, which was a town twenty miles away. And I worked there until I went into the air force. Well actually I got called up for the military first and I reported to the military area zone at [unclear]. And as soon as I told them that I had an application in for the air force and I was just sort of waiting on the reply, they discharged me in two days, and I went back.
JM: Right. Well just before we go a little bit further there, let’s just go back a little bit. So, your time in Cowra. You did primary school and high school? Did you finish at the Intermediate Certificate or did you go through to the Leaving Certificate?
RR: Yes, finished at the Leaving Certificate.
JM: Leaving Certificate, you did your Leaving Certificate?
RR: Did the leaving certificate, yes.
JM: Right, OK. And your parents, were both, were they in town or?
RR: Yes. my Father was a local builder.
JM: Right.
RR: And he was, he’d been building there for, since the early 1900’s.
JM: Um.
RR: Had built a lot of homes in Cowra over the years. And he died a couple of years after this period. When I, by this stage the bank had appointed me to – oh that’s right, no I was going into the air force.
JM: Right.
RR: So, I went straight into the air force.
JM: Um.
RR: And I was in the air force until I came back.
JM: Um.
RR: After the war.
JM: Yeah, but in terms of the, you finished your Leaving Certificate and then from having done that you went into the bank at the local branch of the bank there and then?
RR: Yes.
JM: You did?
RR: Had a few months there.
JM: Had a few there and then they put you off to Coonamble?
RR: Yep. Caloundra.
JM: Caloundra, sorry my apologies. And then you had the call up but you had, you’d sent off your application for the air force. Why did you choose the air force, why did you want to go into the air force?
RR: Well I’d been involved in the ATC.
JM: Right. The Air Training Corps, what from?
RR: From about when I was about fourteen.
JM: Right.
RR: And I had my heart set on being a flyer.
JM: Um.
RR: I finished up I didn’t fly much. I started Tiger Moths.
JM: Um.
RR: But each instructor had about five pupils and so they were looking to get you out very quickly. And I can always remember I’d had one flight out to the satellite drome and they came and said ‘The chief scrub inspector wants you to fly him back to Malanda’. And I said ‘OK’ and I can always remember this, as I was coming into land there wasn’t a Tiger Moth in the sky. And suddenly I looked at this area, part of the landing area, and there were nine Tiger Moth’s all coming in at once. And the instructor said to me, he said ‘If you land in a white pegged area you’re scrubbed’. And sure enough, there was ‘planes coming in, I moved over and I landed in a white pegged area. That was the last time until Margaret took me on my birthday a few years ago on a Tiger Moth flight. That was the last time I’d flown a Tiger Moth.
JM: Um. And this is when then you were in the Air Training Corps?
RR: Yes, I’d signed up.
JM: Yeah, for the air force yeah.
RR: For the air force yeah. And it was only a matter of a couple of weeks and I went to Lindfield in Sydney, in Bradfield Park.
JM: Um.
RR: Which was the induction area for aircrew.
JM: Um.
RR: I did training there and then I was sent out as a prospective pilot.
JM: Um.
RR: Because this one error that fixed me. And then I said ‘What happens now?’ They said ‘You’re being transferred to No2 Wireless School at, what was the name?
JM: Parks?
RR: Yeah, Parks.
JM: Um.
RR: Yeah. To do a wireless course. I’d studied Morse ‘cause my bank manager had been a first World War guy. And they did Morse and he sort of got me going on Morse and I’d obviously topped the course in Bradfield Park. And so, out of seventeen who were scrubbed out of, there were about fifty in the course, we all volunteered for straight gunners. And everyone except me was posted. I was down posted, you know I had to do a wireless air gunners course at the Parks. And I was the only one. I went to Parks, and the other seventeen I think there were of them. And I did the gunnery course with them and then went back to Parks, and I did the course, which took six months. And amazingly enough, my closest friend there, he’d been in the next bunk to me at Bradfield Park, and I got to know him well. And we became close friends and he was my closest friend and today I’ve just read an article, he got killed in a crash and he’d written – and he’d done twenty ops and every op that he did he wrote a full story. And Bomber Command have been printing his story for the last flight he did and the one today in that flight magazine, it’s his sixth trip. So he’s, there’s still fourteen –
JM: To go.
RR: To go. And they’re putting in one a month.
JM: Um.
RR: But it was amazing the pilot, how, we got split up once we got to England. And I picked up the paper one day, and there’s a photo of this pilot who escaped without a parachute. And it turns out he was the skipper of the crew that Mac was flying in.
JM: Um.
RR: And suddenly the, I forget what the aircraft was, an Anson or something, it exploded and blew this guy, the pilot, out into the air without a parachute.
MM: Parachute.
RR: At twenty thousand feet and amazingly enough as he was falling through the air he hit something in the air. ‘Cause some of the them had got out. And grabbed onto it and it was the mid upper gunner who was coming down in a parachute. So, he came down with him in his parachute. And it’s amazing, my doctor treated him after he came back, after the war for the injury to his legs.
JM: Legs.
RR: And he died only about a year ago. And of course, Mac came down and his parachute was on fire.
JM: Oh dear.
RR: And it, he was killed when he hit the ground.
JM: When he hit the ground, on impact?
RR: But that’s just a side issue.
JM: A side yeah. Well I mean the point is you were just saying about how you had been doing your training with him. Yeah, so having done your training at Parks, you then more or less went to preparation for departure and went up to Brisbane?
RR: Yeah. I went to No2 wireless air gunners course at Parks.
JM: Yes, but after that.
RR: For six months. After that I know they just moved us out of a tent.
JM: Um.
RR: And I can always remember the mud and stuff. Onto a liberty ship which was [telephone ringing], had brought some American troops to Australia on its first, its maiden voyage.
JM: Um.
RR: And we were loaded onto that ship. And there were about eighty of us I think we were. And we went, we got let off at Alcatraz.
JM: Um. And –
RR: I didn’t go in the prison.
JM: No.
RR: We were in a, there was a camp right opposite on the other side of the bay.
JM: Um.
RR: And I’d volunteered to fly as a straight air gunner, although I’d done my wireless course and had got my wags, wings and all that sort of thing. But I still decided to carry on as a straight air gunner. And I finished up, I’d been to 460 the Australian squadron.
JM: Um.
RR: I did a Morse, Reuters Morse course at Yatesbury and then I went, volunteered, went to Yatesbury in Wiltshire and volunteered again to fly as a straight air gunner.
JM: Um.
RR: And I’d been at Binbrook for three months or something, that’s with the Australian squadron.
JM: Yeah, that’s when you in the 460, so when you got to Binbrook was when you were posted to 460 Squadron? Yes?
RR: Yes. That was 460.
JM: Um.
RR: And then I got wings, I went to Yatesbury, which is Reuters wireless school.
JM: Yep, yep.
RR: And I did fairly well in that. And I still volunteered to fly as a straight air gunner ‘cause we wanted to get it over and done with and get home.
JM: Home, that’s right yeah. So that’s OK, so you got to, you did all your, you did –
RR: Conversion.
JM: You got to Binbrook as 460?
RR: I went from Binbrook to Winthorpe where we converted onto Lancasters.
JM: Yep, um. So, you didn’t do any operational work at Binbrook? Didn’t run any, didn’t do any operational flights?
RR: No.
JM: Ok, so.
RR: Only, I was flying one flight from Binbrook. One morning the call woke me up at seven o’clock in the morning, and said ‘Get straight up to the Adjutant’s office, there’s a Lancaster waiting outside to take you to….’ And I’ve forgotten the name of the squadron which up was up at, which was up near Newcastle.
JM: Um.
RR: And, Newcastle upon Tyne, and they flew me up. ‘Cause they’d picked me because of my Morse knowledge.
JM: Yep.
RR: And I was going to be. I was interviewed and I looked at all the equipment in the Halifax. There was sort of special equipment, and the last thing that the guy said to me, he said ‘Right, there’s a Lancaster waiting to take you back to Binbrook, and we’ll contact you within seven days. ‘Cause you qualify for this job handling the electronics on the –
JM: The Halifax?
RR: On the Lancaster, no Halifax, Halifax.
JM: Yep.
RR: It was ‘cause I think there were only three Halifax’s with this equipment in them. But in that week they had a couple of crashes and lost the whole crew. And so the next thing I heard, I’m posted to Morton in the Marsh.
JM: Um.
RR: Which was Wellington.
JM: Right. So you had to do –
RR: OTU Squadron.
JM: Right, yeah.
RR: So I was [unclear] Morton in the Marsh. And we, and from there, we moved to, at the end of the course, we were moved to –
JM: To Winthorpe?
RR: To Winthorpe.
JM: For Lancaster conversion is that right?
RR: To Lancaster conversion yeah.
JM: Yep, so that’s in –
RR: And we did the Lancaster conversion, and we got a report that we were a real good crew and they were going to recommend us for Pathfinders.
JM: Um.
RR: Anyhow suddenly the Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki.
JM: Um.
RR: And we’d moved only a few weeks before to Skellingthorpe.
JM: Um.
RR: And to, oh what were they called? I keep forgetting the name of it.
JM: Tiger Force?
RR: Tiger Force.
JM. Yeah.
RR: Yeah we were moved to Tiger Force.
JM: Um.
RR: In fact there’s a photo out in the office there of our course. ‘Cause there were, there were, sixty squadrons of Lancasters going to bomb Tokyo. And we were due to leave in two days time to fly to Tokyo up by the Arctic Circle, and the Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki, and that’s –
JM: And that was the end of that?
RR: And that stopped it all. But we’d done about five months flying in Tiger Force.
JM: Right, yeah.
RR: And within six weeks we were on our way home.
JM: Home. So basically you just – it was all training as such. You didn’t actually then do any operational missions –
RR: Oh, when we were doing at the conversion unit, which put us onto Lancasters –
JM: Yep.
RR: We did our, I’ve got the logbook down here.
JM: Um.
RR: And between Morton in the Marsh and Skellingthorpe –
JM: Yeah.
RR: We’d done about eight hundred hours flying. And we were flying every day.
JM: Um. Flying every day.
RR: And we were doing diversions.
JM: Um.
RR: And it’s amazing, just been looking into it. [unclear] getting the letter from Bomber Command. And there was one operation that we did, which was a, it was a bogus operation on Tokyo.
JM: Um.
RR: It was the diversion, and we were mainly flying diversions all over the Atlantic but no bombing.
JM: No.
RR: It was all this sort of flying. And so that’s my history really.
JM: Yeah, no. And of course you didn’t, with the way that all turned out you didn’t then have to do any of the pick ups and returns of the servicemen from Europe back to the UK? That, others did that?
RR: Oh, we did that.
JM: You did do that?
RR: We did that. We were put on a ship, and there was about a hundred of us. Australians, all Australians, about a hundred or so. They put us onto a ship, and the Chief of the Air Force in England was on the wharf. And all these blokes were coming off the ship and shouting and performing and. Anyhow they rounded us up and got us all back on the ship. You wouldn’t believe it and down this [unclear] of Spain it broke down completely. And we had to come back and they sent another ship down to pick us up to take us back and we were another six weeks in England. And then we came via Suez Canal and Taranto, Italy. We went around Italy and ‘cause they were picking up a few New Zealanders there. But yes well it was a very interesting exercise. And actually within two days of the Americans dropping the atomic bomb on Nagasaki the Japanese surrendered. And so suddenly everything had stopped and we were still flying for another month or so. We were just, we were flying over Europe, doing reconnaissance because they were worried that the Germans were going to start again.
JM: Um. Was there also a concern about the Russians at all at that point, or?
RR: Yeah, the Russians. The Russians came in, in fact the Russians released quite a lot of Australians that were, or Jews I think they were, that were in jail there. But that’s all the Russians. The Russians soon got out of the action there they wiped the Germans out. But that finished up being a very interesting period. And of the crew there’s only –
JM: When did you, because you’d had a lot of changes, once you were crewed up, when did you?
RR: Crewed up.
JM: Crewed up. Was it when you were at the Wellington OTU, was that when you were crewed up?
RR: Yes, yes.
JM: Right. And so who did you have in your crew? All Australians in your [unclear] yeah?
RR: All Australians.
JM: A mix of sort of west and east or?
RR: No, they were all Australians and we had a excellent pilot and the only Englishman in the crew was the engineer.
JM: Right.
RR: You’ll see in those photos, only seven of them in photo. Although I think there was one with only six. But yes so, we did a tremendous amount of flying.
JM: Flying um.
RR: Amazing.
JM: You said eight hundred hours I think didn’t you?
RR: The two together. I’ve got a copy of the logbook, pilot’s logbook.
JM: Right, yeah.
RR: And there’s about eight hundred. We did about eight hundred hours flying between OTU and the conversion. CSF.
JM: Going into the Lancasters?
RR: Yeah, Lancasters. But we did, I think we did, about three hundred hours I think in Wellingtons. There’s a note on the, in the logbook there, that the total was round about eight hundred flying hours.
JM: Um, gosh. And so, this pilot, well your crew, the whole crew that you were on. Did you stay together as a crew and then return home as a crew?
RR: Yes, yes.
JM: Yes, OK. And did –
RR: Out of that crew there’s only the pilot and myself left alive.
JM: And who’s the, is the pilot, was the pilot?
RR: The pilot was Wal Goodwin.
JM: Goodwin, yeah right.
RR: And we think there’s only the two of us out of the crew, others have died.
JM: Yes.
RR: ‘Cause the navigator and the bomb aimer were both, I think ten years at least older.
JM: Yep.
RR: The rest of the crew. And the pilot he’s just turned forty, sorry, ninety-four.
JM: Yep.
RR: And I’ll be ninety-three in August.
JM: August, yeah. And how, what, even though you were doing all this flying as training, were there any particular events, or sequence of events, that sort of perhaps stood out for you? That stay with you more than others? Couple of things, anything to mention?
RR: One of our flights over the North Sea we lost an engine and went into a dive and the pilot was getting ready to bail out. And we were out in the middle of the North Sea and there was no way of getting the dinghy out or anything. That was probably the worst experience.
JM: So, what did the pilot manage to recover at the last minute or?
RR: Yes. It got into a steep dive and the pressure on the jets, or the propellers, started the engine up again. And we were OK. We had one other –
JM: In the Wellington or the Lancaster?
RR: No, in the Lancaster.
JM: In the Lancaster, um.
RR: ‘Cause they used us in training for patrolling the North Sea, we did everything except drop bombs really.
JM: Um. ‘Cause I presume you were monitoring ship movements and that sort of thing were you?
RR: Yeah, yeah. In fact, I’m just reading a book about the, what’s it called, [unclear] I just bought it home. Guy that lent it to me, is our gardener lent it to me. It’s about eight hundred pages but it’s all about Bomber Command and their attacks on the Turbots. And thinking of the Turbots I went back a second time and found that it had a great hole in the side and the Turbot was sunk. Was sunk there and that was the end of it.
JM: So that was one when you lost that engine. Anything else that stays with you more than any other?
RR: No. We had a couple of tricky landings you know? They lost power and we came in round on the strip a couple of times. Only a couple of times, but in fact he was such a good pilot that one of the flights we came back, and it was in the daytime. We landed and we went into the briefing room and suddenly a person run in the briefing room and said ‘Is the pilot called Goodwin here?’ and we said ‘Oh yeah, Wal.’ And Wal stood up and he said ‘You’re wanted in the tower, some top-ranking officer wants to talk to you.’ And what it was, this guy was the top, one of the top half dozen in the air force. And he called him into the tower and said ‘Right’ he said ‘I just want to congratulate you,’ he said ‘That is the best landing I’ve ever seen made by a Lancaster.’
JM: Goodness.
RR: And from that we were recommended for Pathfinders. We were lucky we were a top crew and if the Tiger Force hadn’t suddenly happened we would have been posted to, to do, I’ve forgotten, I’ve lost track of what I was talking about now.
JM: You would have gone off to Pathfinders.
RR: Pathfinders.
JM: Yeah.
RR: Yeah. As a crew we would have been –
JM: Moved on.
RR: To Pathfinders.
JM: Yeah. And what about your leave times? You probably had various, quite often you would have had patches of leave, what sort of things did you do while you were on leave? Did you go anywhere? Did you end up with a particular place that you enjoyed going to or did you go to many different places, or?
RR: Well mainly we went on short breaks, somewhere the – there was one when we first got to England. We’d been there about three weeks I think it was and they said ‘ You’ve got five days leave.’ And a group of us, four or five of us, went off and stayed in a hotel in London, and that night was the most V1’s and V2’s they had over London in the whole time, London was very bombed.
JM: Bombed.
RR: And it was quite amazing. And we were there for two nights watching them.
JM: Um, um. And presumably the hotel you were staying in didn’t get any damage?
RR: No, no, no. ‘Cause they were going for certain targets and it was all round central London. But the other thing which happened to myself and I think three or four of us, the first night we were in Brighton, we were in two old hotels. Something and the ‘The Grand’ was the name of them. And that’s where we were living and this first night, and there was an air raid on London. And we all went down and got in the air raid shelter and when it was over we came back and went to bed. And next thing there’s a guy shouting at us. And he said ‘Get your uniform on, I’ve got a job for you.’ And there were four or five of us and I don’t know whether you know Brighton but the cemetery’s in very close. And he said ‘I want you to pick up a German who’s in the cemetery’ and we walked round, about eleven o’clock at night. And when we got into the cemetery there was this German in a parachute stuck in way up in the tree –
JM: Was he alive still?
RR: He was dead.
JM: He was dead.
RR: Obviously his ‘chute hadn’t opened properly and we had to get him down and have him taken away, yeah.
JM: Gosh, that’s a bit of an introduction to –
RR: Yeah, well we’d only been there –
JM: What two days in Brighton? Gosh –
RR: The other thing that I haven’t told you about, which is, and I’ve talked on this at luncheons and this sort of thing. Oh yes, yeah the Queen Elizabeth, when we came to get on the Queen Elizabeth, there were about eighty Australians and there was a band with about sixty or eighty in it and they played. And we marched down the side of this ship, and all we could see was a great hole in the side. And when we got in we found out it was the Queen Elizabeth. And the Queen Elizabeth, I’ve got all the records there somewhere. There were twenty thousand American troops on it. And they’d all loaded before us. And we came in and went into the area that was the, had been the middle stage, never been finished properly. And we were in a double cabin, and there were seventeen of us in the cabin. We slept on the floor with palisses, OK? So that night suddenly all the doors close, this sort of thing and we sailed off. And we’re out at sea two days and suddenly there was a great clanging of bells and this sort of thing. And they said ‘Everyone wherever you are on the ship.’ ‘Cause it was all colours, say if they wanted to use yellow that line down there would be yellow.
JM: Um.
RR: And that one over there would be red something. And we’d been picked out because we were all in gunnery and we were given a badge with a big ‘G’ on it. And so they said ‘Everyone stay where you are on the ship don’t move.’ And next thing all the guns on the grilles have opened up firing and unbeknown to us at the time ‘cause the gunnery on the Queen Elizabeth, there were three or four fat guns. And there was the gunnery crew, who were military, was over eight hundred. And all these opened up and there was a German Condor aircraft which had been tracking us since we’d pulled out from the wharf, and he was working in with a submarine group of eight or ten subs. And they were out in the North Sea, and we were only two days out, waiting for us. ‘Cause they were on the attack straight away out of the Condor aircraft. Took off because there was that much firing of flak and this sort of thing. It disappeared and they put a warning over the loudspeaker ‘Everyone, where you are stay there and hang on.’ And the boat did a ninety degree turn. Found out, I’ve since, met up with a guy who was pulled into the bridge whilst this was going on, and he said they’d got up to thirty-five knots and did this right angle turn and we went to Greenland. And we had a day aboard in Greenland. Then we went to Greenock in Scotland [unclear] day or couple of days. But Queen Elizabeth could have been sunk, it was quite amazing.
JM: It would have been an incredible number of lives lost.
RR: Oh God.
JM: You said there were twenty thousand Yanks on board, and then.
RR: Yeah, yeah.
JM: All the Australians and everyone else, and then all the gunnery guys.
RR: Yeah. I can always remember, another guy and myself were in the corridor kinda the mall, and this giant black guy pulled us up and for some reason or another, I don’t know why. And it was the bloke who was world heavyweight boxing champion. Trying to think of his name, I can’t think of his name. I knew it well, but he was on the ship for the whole trip. Can’t think of his name, memory is going a bit. But he was patrolling.
JM: Right.
RR: He said to us ‘Stay there, don’t move’.
JM: And you wouldn’t be arguing with him. [laughs]
RR: No. And they hunted off this Condor.
JM: Condor yeah.
RR: Which is a big aircraft. But we were just lucky. And what happened after we got to England. The Americans had sent several destroyers out after the subs, and they broke up the sub pack. And they captured a hundred I think. A couple of crews and it’s amazing that it could quite easily happen to someone like him, he was the world heavyweight boxing champion.
JM: Um, yeah.
RR: Oh, I know his name as well as anything.
JM: Oh well it’ll come back. So, when you were flying were you aware of anyone in the crew that carried a particular good luck charm or had any particular suspicions that they sort of?
RR: No, funny none of ‘em.
JM: None of them?
RR: No.
JM: So, they’re all pretty laid back and –
RR: Yeah they were all –
JM: Happy, confident in each other abilities all the time so didn’t have any need for?
RR: Yes it’s amazing. Of course out of the lot of them. Lot of German aircraft in the area but I think once they saw what ship it was and they would know they had flak guns they just backed off.
JM: Yeah. But as I say when you were flying, in all the hours of flying that you did you didn’t have any of your crew members had any good luck charms with them?
RR: No.
JM: No. And we were talking about when you did your leave and you talked about the time that you went to London and there was that heavy bombing.
RR: Yes.
JM: Any other times that you were on leave that stand out for any reason? Where you did something special or something funny happened to you?
RR: We got a group of us, about thirty of us I suppose, all Australians out of this intake. We got sent to Whitley Bay.
JM: Um.
RR: To a, like a, it was a military course.
JM: This was in June 1944?
RR: That would have been June ’44.
JM: Yeah.
RR: And, oh, can’t think about it.
JM: You went to Whitley, a group of you went to Whitley Bay?
RR: Oh yes. Whitley Bay and did this course. It was a, it had a name for it, I’ve forgotten the name. And the last day in it, I can always remember I had conjunctivitis in one of my eyes and so I went sick. And of course in the group of six or eight that we were in was a fella named Lenny Richards. Always remember his name. And we knew it was grenade throwing today and I said ‘I thnk I’ll be sick’ this conjunctivitis so I didn’t go. So, of course they were all having a joke that Lenny would drop a grenade or something, but he didn’t kill anyone. Anyhow I run into him one day years later, just off Martin Place, he was working for one of the typewriter companies –
JM: Um. That was a coincidence. And so when you were sent, eventually got going and got back to –
RR: Australia.
JM: Australia, you were discharged then?
RR: Yeah, and –
JM: In March 19 –
RR: Posted to Newcastle in the ANZ Bank.
JM: Yeah. So you discharged in the March of ’46?
RR: Yeah, that’d be right.
JM: Yeah, so then you what, went straight back into the bank?
RR: I went back into the bank at Newcastle.
JM: Um.
RR: In fact, I finished up marrying, my wife was a Newcastle girl.
JM: Um, so you met at Newcastle?
RR: Yeah, yeah. And then I was transferred to Oxford Street in Sydney in ANZ Bank. And then I got moved back from there to Head Office in Martin Place and I was Personnel Officer for New South Wales. Then after I’d done that for twelve months or so I became Methods Officer and was just driving round all the branches checking up on their equipment and this sort of thing, did that for [unclear]. Ran into several years, yes.
JM: So then did you retire from the bank or did you?
RR: I retired from the bank.
JM: Um.
RR: I retired from the bank in um, hard to think, around nineteen, about 1970 I think it was. I’d been to Newcastle staying with people that we’d known for years. I didn’t know that he was an alcoholic and he had a real estate business at Burley Heads. I finished up buying a half interest in it, and I did that for a couple of years. And Hookers had one office in Surfers’ Paradise and they wanted to get rid of the manager and they approached me from Hookers in Sydney. They flew me down and talked to various top guys and by the time I got back they’d offered me the job of managing the Hooker office in Surfers’ which had about ten or twelve staff. And I did that for several years and then resigned and came to the Gold Coast. I had this half interest business with this other guy, I found that he did all the drinking I did all the work.
JM: Work.
RR: But oh yes, pretty good life really.
JM: Um.
RR: And when I eventually sold out of here I had a job offer running Hookers. I’m trying, I’ve forgotten, years get away, so had a pretty good life really.
JM: Um, well that’s good. And it means that you’ve been able to do quite a lot. You mentioned that your pilot’s still alive. So, have you maintained, when you first came back did you maintain contact with the crew?
RR: Yes.
JM: All of the crew sort of?
RR: Yes. In fact, actually the rear gunner, his son had a job in the war memorial.
JM: Oh right.
RR: And he’d been there quite a few years.
JM: Um.
RR: So, he said ‘Well G-George is going to be refurbished, reconditioned and they’ll be taking it out. Why don’t you as a crew organise a couple of days? Come down to Canberra,’ he says ‘I’ll organise you an inspection on G-George and getting in,’ we finished up having two or three hours early in the morning, climbing all over G-George. Quite amazing.
JM: Would have brought back some memories to see George?
RR: Yeah.
JM: Not that it was in your unit, your squadron I should say. But that’s, well George was in 460.
RR: Yes. 460.
JM: So, there’s a relation. Like when, so you were in 460 briefly but so was George flying, being flown then when you were in 460?
RR: Yeah, when I was at 460 G-George was in that period. Was a period, three or four months I think it was I was there as specialist operator studying, it was to study the equipment that they were using then. But G-George had flown out to Australia by then it was just on display.
JM: Yeah, that’s right. And so as you say all the rest of the chaps have now passed away?
RR: Oh yes.
JM: But you still, where’s Wal Goodwin, is he?
RR: He’s in Melbourne.
JM: He’s in Melbourne is he?
RR: Yes, he’s two years older than I am. He’ll be ninety-four, he’s probably turned ninety-four now. And he’s fit and well. And it’s –
JM: Do you know if he’s been a member of Bomber Command or Odd Bods or anything?
RR: Him?
JM: Yeah.
RR: I would think he would, he seems to have a close contact in the veterans’ affairs. He occasionally used to get things that veterans’ affairs were sort of handing out, that sort of thing. But I talk to him at least every two or three months.
JM: Right.
RR: Particularly on birthdays and that sort of thing.
JM: Um.
RR: But the bomb aimer and the navigator were both at least ten years older than us. And the rear gunner just died he was the same age as myself, and he died only three or four months ago. And the, we had an Australian guy, brought into the crew as the engineer and he came from Adelaide and we’ve never heard a word from him or, he only sort of came in at the last bit.
JM: Last bit um.
RR: Last few months. So, I don’t know what’s happened to him.
JM: And he didn’t, did he travel home with you at the same time? In the same group?
RR: Came home in the same group.
JM: Yeah. But he didn’t sort of maintain any contact?
RR: Maintain any contact, no, it’s amazing really that we’ve lost track. Well we know that the navigator’s dead, the bomb aimer’s dead, the pilot’s alive and so that leaves us three gunners and one other the engineer who was an Australian, an Australian pilot, who they gave him an engineers course and he flew with us a couple of months or so.
JM: Months yeah.
RR: Yeah.
JM: So, you mentioned you do talks, have done talks in the past? Is there anything else that you would perhaps mention in those talks we haven’t covered now?
RR: No, I don’t think so. I think I’ve pretty well covered everything.
JM: Yeah, and maybe a bit more?
RR: Um?
JM: And maybe a bit more?
RR: Yeah, yeah. I got those couple of forms here.
JM: Of yes, well we’ll do those in a minute but –
Unknown: Coming down the stairs, I heard that you forgot Shorty.
RR: Huh?
Unknown: You forgot Shorty. Your wireless operator.
RR: Oh, Shorty died.
Unknown: Didn’t mention him.
RR: Yeah, Shorty died. [garbled mixture of voices] that was the other one I couldn’t think of.
JM: Yeah, right. So that’s all good.
RR: Yeah.
JM: Alright well if there’s nothing else that you –
Unknown: Would you like a cup of tea or cup of coffee?
JM: Well we’ll just finish the record. We’ll sort out the paperwork and that.
Unknown: You haven’t finished recording? I thought you might have done.
JM: That’s OK, no, no it’s alright we’re just wrapping up now. So, I’ll just formally thank you Ron very much for sharing all those memories with us. It’s very much appreciated and it’s just wonderful that you could give us the time and make the effort to do so.
RR: Good, no problem.
JM: Thank you.
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Interview with Ronald Rodgers
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:07:56 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Jean Macartney
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-20
Description
An account of the resource
Ronald Rodgers joined the Royal Australian Air Force aged seventeen, having previously been in the Air Training Corps. He trained as an air gunner and was posted to 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook but did not fly operationally. On discharge in 1946 Roy worked in banking, retiring in 1970.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dawn Studd
460 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Halifax
Lancaster
RAF Binbrook
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Yatesbury
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/346/3514/AWarwickT170322.1.mp3
66e6c6203dd7a036ea9519f720f4f66c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Warwick, Thea
T Warwick
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Thea Warwick.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Warwick, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Rod Pickles. The interviewee is Thea Warwick. The interview is taking place in Mrs Warwick’s home in Portesham, Dorset on the 22nd of March 2017. Max Warwick is also present. Good morning Thea. Could you start by telling us where you were born and your early childhood experiences please?
TW: I was born in Rotterdam on the 13th of August 1937 and the war didn’t start until 1940 as we all know. My father was called up in 1939 to help with the, with the army although he didn’t have any experience. He was stationed at a small airfield in [unclear] and because I was only more or less a baby my mother wanted to see my father so we went over there and stayed in a farmhouse. While we were staying there I got the measles so that meant we couldn’t go home. During that week when, when we were stuck there they bombed Rotterdam. And we didn’t know whether our house was still standing so luckily it was OK when we came back. So that was my earliest memory of the war. My father came back, I don’t know exactly when, but when he came back out of the blue he was very thin and he had dysentery so quite an ill man. And after that, after the bombing there, there wasn’t much going on to be, to be honest. The war or the hardship started before the Hongerwinter that is where I remember most and also there were things going on. There was a lot that year on the 10th of November 1944 all men were called up in Rotterdam and, and you had to be between seventeen and fourteen, forty. You had a days notice, so my father packed his little suitcase and went with our neighbour to the park behind our house where they were supposed to go. When they were inspected they told my father, even though he was forty, you’re too old you can go home. The neighbour was thirty-eight years old but he, he had a visible goitre so the Germans said “you can go home”. So luckily he came home after hours and I remember the joy we had. Thank goodness my father came home because my mother would’ve never coped with what was going to happen next. While, while this was going on with regard to [unclear] there was a little Jewish chap who lived in our street and he hid but the Germans found him because after the time — after the [unclear] that particular afternoon when all the men were supposed to be in the park the Germans came to every house to see if there were any men hiding. Luckily they got so fed up with going up and down the stairs they didn’t go up stairs they just went to the front door and asked my mother if there were any men, of course there wasn’t. Now, later on in the war when some — most, most of the men came back who were picked up in our street except for two who found another lady while they were in Germany and that was very sad and caused a bit of a scandal [laughs] I remember that all because it — then, then of course things got really bad. My father, there was no more food and we moved into the smallest room in our house. He had bought a dustbin lined with concrete which was put up in the corner of the room with a pipe going through the window outside we had a table and four chairs in there and that’s where we lived. I used to go to the park and try to find wood and also had a sieve with me and some tools because the path in park were made with a sort of coal like an anthracite and I used to scrape it off in bits and put them in the sieve, you know and then take them off home.
RP: This was for fuel obviously?
TW: Yeah, yeah because — well we had to burn whatever we could find in the dustbin, you know. We had no electricity, no gas. Luckily we had water. That was all we had left. Then one day I found a great big branch, branch of a tree and it was very heavy and walking home, carrying this tree and there was a man that lived there who I happened to know. He came up to me he said “I’ll have that”. He took it off me, I ran home crying and my father said he would — I will get it back and he called his neighbour up and the two men went up to his house and he gave it back without any problem. I mean, you know, we were all so desperate [laughs] it’s all become basics hasn’t it. In the morning my mother had to look through all the blankets for fleas because when you have no proper food the bugs come and there were a lot of fleas in the blankets every morning. Not only that we had lice on our heads. We were taken somewhere to some sort of hospital and I remember they cut my hair very very short. I was almost bald because of the lice and was given some sort of stuff, you know. These are all the things I remember and of course we had to walk everywhere, you know. Then my father went to, to the harbour to see if he could find anything to eat and then there was— in the winter and there was snow and ice and he had a bicycle and he fell, fell over on the ice and broke his arm. Anyway he managed to get home, had his arm in a sling and he rigged up some sort of contraption in that little room we were in in the corner to exercise his arm. Anyway that got better. Then he decided to go away for a few days at a time to go to the farmers to try and see if he could get food from them, but you see money was not worth a penny, you know. It was worth nothing, so all we had of value was then used to buy food in exchange and I tell you some of the farms got very rich during the war. We also had an allotment and that was fine and helped us out in the years before 1940 to the Hongerwinter. Of course when people got very hungry they went to the allotment and stole all the food and even the little summer house that was on there was completely gone. People took it home for burning, you know. And also every tree in the park went it was bare, it was totally bare.
RP: Goodness.
TW: Then the government tried to grow some food in open public places like corn and potatoes to try and feed the population, you know. Well that helped a little bit but it wasn’t really good err I will have to stop for a minute [pause] err yes and also we had to learn soup kitchen and I always had to get [unclear] and we found the biggest saucepan we could find, it was about that big, and I had to walk for about two miles with the pan to the soup kitchen and I was about six then. I think my mother let me — the things I did when I was six in those — she didn’t care anymore because after the war she was extremely strict with me, I couldn’t do this that and the other but in the war I think mentally she had, she had given up, you know. So I went to this [laughs] soup kitchen and one day we had a soup so called, it was a grey mass, you know and of course then I had to carry that all home and another day I went with my little neighbour who was the same age as me and we heard there was another — we could get a meal in a church somewhere we walked for miles to that church and on the way we found a great big bundle of money laying in the street so we started to count it and then because we were so young and naive we asked a passer by what we should do with it [laughs] and he said don’t worry I will bring it to the police station, yes, you know. Never to be seen again [laughs]. Oh we were so innocent.
RP: Did you not keep one note?
TW: No, nothing I mean we — [laughs]. Then of course, I didn’t have shoes anymore that was a thing so my father repaired the shoes as much as he could. Instead of soles he put rubber underneath from tyres, you know.
RP: Oh yes.
TW: And in the end he couldn’t repair them anymore so he bought me a pair of wooden clogs, you know, the Dutch clogs so that was in the Hongerwinter and there was a lot of snow and we still had to go to school. Yes [laughs] and I remember and they didn’t fit very well so he put some straw in them, you know and every fifteen yards or so I had to stop because snow used to pile up underneath because it was wood you see so I would struggle to school.
RP: They would become heavier?
TW: Yes, yeah you could walk and I had to take the snow off. And then of course when we went to school in the end there was no coal because each classroom had a huge burner in the corner and it was enormous and there was nothing. So we used to sit there with our coats on and every time when the sirens went we had to rush out of the school straight into the — what’s it called, the — underground what’s it called?
RP: The subway?
TW: No, no.
RP: Cellar?
TW: A cellar, no, no they were specially built for everybody to hide in. You had them in this country. Anyway.
RP: So while all this all this was going on obviously you were only six so you would not be aware of why you were cut off. Were you aware of the fact that the allies had advanced past, past Holland?
TW: No I wasn’t [unclear] to that. This was my — what I personally — my experience my memory, you know.
RP: So I wonder all this time that obviously the population looking for food what were the Germans doing were they starving or were they —
TW: No they were well fed. And of course, you know, in the street where we lived we had a Jewish family living who was a Rabi and one day he disappeared and the following day he had [unclear] that went in there which were called christenings[?] and we had another two sisters living further in the road who were fraternising with the German Officers they were collected by cars every time but I tell you a bit more about them later. Then my next door, we had four, eight families living in my — where I lived and my other neighbour he was in the resistance and also the one that lived on top and one day the Germans had a tip off that he was home I don’t know which one they were after the first neighbour or the one that lived on the top. The one that lived below luckily wasn’t home the other one that lived at the top was able to escape over the roofs and those Germans came in our house and stood on the balcony for hours on end pointing a gun down the gardens because they thought he would escape through the gardens but no he escaped over the roof. Anyway my first neighbour who lived below he — they did find him and they killed him. You know, with all these — although it was only a little street a lot happened there so can you imagine, you know.
RP: It must’ve been terrifying.
TW: Yeah. Right I’ll stop. [rustling of papers] That was in the summer it was before the Hongerwinter and we had quite a nice warm summer and my father somehow had secured a load of potatoes but we had to collect them ourselves. So from where he worked he got up a hand cart with a lid on it so my mother who was pregnant, so that must have been in the summer of forty-three, we, we left very early and walked for five hours to get to the river where this boat was supposed to be. So we had to wait a long time there and in the end we were able to fill the hand cart with potatoes and then we had to get home because there was curfew. We had to be home before dark. We just made it in time and of course I got very tired and I was able to sit in the cart, you know, because my mother didn’t want me, to leave me at home in case there was a bombardment [coughs] back so it was almost dark when we got home and we unloaded the potatoes. We threw them in the hallway until it was all finished and then locked the door and lights out and then we went two flights up. We had another room at the top of the house which wasn’t used and had a wooden floor and all the potatoes were spread out over the floor so they would keep you see, didn’t go rotten and then my father said “Make sure you don’t tell anybody we’ve got those potatoes.” I remember my mother boiling a big pan full of potatoes that night that’s all we had to eat [laughs]
RP: Do you still like potatoes?
TW: oh yes, yes [laughs] yeah, yeah.
RP: [laughs] it’s just that I thought with eating so many you might have decided that you were never going to eat them again.
TW: No. I have to stop here a minute [rustling of paper]
RP: OK.
TW: We, we woke up about seven o’clock with an almighty explosion and my mother had a sort of very large bed called an Alisa Bowl, French word for it, it is so four people could sleep in it and for safety we all slept in that room, anyway there was this explosion and my father went straight out of the house to find out [coughs] excuse me, what happened and a V-1 had gone wrong in about maybe half a mile away from us and it landed on block of houses, you know. So he came back and he collected us and we all went to have a look and it was so sad. I remember it so well because people did have nothing left, they just sat in a field nearby with nothing, you know and apparently according to this book here this
V-1 was fired from [unclear] and was supposed to go to Antwerp. We thought it was going to England because most of them were, you know. We had V-1s and V-2s and we could tell the difference because of the sound they make. So that was all very sad. I’ll stop here a minute. My father during the war worked for the electricity supplier in Rotterdam near our house a huge building and it was the highest building at the time apart from a church about sixteen stories high and of course it was near the harbour. So the Germans took charge of that so there was [unclear] as well and my father was a night porter there during the war and they used to give it [unclear] with string and annoy him just for their own pleasure ,you know, ‘cause there was nothing else to do and when he was at the end of his shift they’d give him a huge plate of food to take home but he had to go on his bicycle but how he got home every time I really don’t know. We’ve still got the plates. My sisters still got the iron plates. They’re about that round and that high [coughs] Let’s stop for a minute. [long pause] Yeah, on the 9th of April 1945 somehow we knew about a food drop. My parents knew I don’t know how they got to know this but we went to the top of our house which had a flat roof and we waited for the planes to come and when they did come they flew very low and we saw the parcels being thrown out of the planes and we had a sheet there and we used to wave, we waved, at the pilots it was extremely emotional. Unfortunately whatever we got from the food drop wasn’t very much in the end because the distribution was very difficult. There was no petrol everything had to be delivered by horse and cart to the shops and we didn’t — and on the 13th of May that was after the war we actually got some tins of corned beef, corned beef and some biscuits. That’s all we got from the drop I suppose the rest had already disappeared, you know, somewhere.
RP: I suppose the Germans helped themselves as well did they?
TW: Of course, of course.
RP: So what — do you know what they were dropping beside the corned beef and biscuits? Do you know what they were dropping?
TW: We don’t know what was in it but according to the book here there were chocolates in it and everything but we never got it.
RP: You never saw any chocolate?
TW: No all the good things had gone. So only biscuits and tins were left but the Swedish Government sent us white bread. That was one loaf for every family and it tasted like cake.
RP: So how did they supply that the Swedes?
TW: Well we were told — it comes in the local shops the food shops we had they always sell food. The problem was we had to queue for hours on end. The way we used to queue I used to queue an hour then my mother and then my father because it was only a bag and we went home.
RP: So on shifts then? That’s something new, shift queuing but I suppose because Sweden was neutral they could sail in couldn’t they?
TW: Of course.
RP: They could sail in to Rotterdam?
TW: Well I think, well I don’t know how they actually managed to —
RP: Well whatever way they —
TW: Well it was after the war so they could have come by ship.
RP: They could have come by ship.
TW: Or by plane even, yeah.
RP: But, but you actually saw the aircraft come in when you were on the roofs then?
TW: Oh yes, oh yes never forget it. Makes me cry every time.
RP: So I mean — I suppose somebody somewhere got the food I guess so —
TW: Yes I think.
RP: What about your neighbours were they, were they able to get some?
TW: Well we, we all went to the same shops so I suppose, you know, they got the same as we did. I’ve got some more about food talk. The distribution was very slow and between the 1st of May and the 13th of May four hundred and eighteen people died from starvation and we were liberated from the 5th of May so can you imagine so they didn’t just — nearly at the end of the war lots of people were dying of starvation. You saw people drop in the streets it was awful. [coughs] Do you want to know about the liberation?
RP: Yes, yes please. So at what point did the Germans surrender in Holland then? Was it the same day as —
TW: Well it’s all a little bit vague but the official day actually they say was the 6th of May when they did it, liberated, not the fifth. I don’t know why they are saying this and then the Canadians, the Canadians came in. I’ll never forget that day. They came in their tanks row after rows, rows all afternoon rolling in with tanks then went to the centre of the town and of course everybody went out to celebrate and of course the Germans just disappeared. Then when the liberation came well the people had street parties everywhere, flags were hung out, bunting everywhere I don’t know where they got the flags from. My neighbour who was a pianist his piano was carried out of the house in the street and we learnt to dance the hokey pokey and this went on for days on end.
RP: I can imagine.
TW: And every now — after that everybody must have been too exhausted to party anymore. And then came the revenge. The two sisters that lived in our street and were friendly with the German Officers were dragged out of their house, their head shaven, tarred and feathered then put on a horse and cart and driven through the neighbourhood collecting others on the way. The Quizlings[?] living opposite us disappeared overnight. Then after that I can’t remember very much. I think it came back to normal.
RP: So at what point did the food supply return to normal do you think? Did it take a couple of years or —
TW: Oh well, we, it was the same of everybody else we had rations.
RP: So you had ration books same as this country?
TW: And err [coughs] I believe the rations in England lasted longer than ours.
RP: Yeah, I think it was about 1953 in England the rations stopped.
TW: Yes because coffee was always rationed wasn’t it?
RP: Yes and strangely enough bananas.
TW: Bananas ,God, I remember seeing a banana and an orange I’d never seen one before.
RP: I think I saw one about 1953 but yeah, yeah. So do you know how many drops were made in Holland then because —
TW: I think it was a one off. It was a very dangerous exercise. They couldn’t have done —
RP: Because the Americans also came by as well didn’t they? They had an operation to supply as well. Probably two different parts I think. They called theirs, they called theirs Chowhound , Operation Chowhound but I think that might have been to different cities not to Rotterdam.
TW: Well Rotterdam was the worse and then next came the Hague and then [unclear]
RP: Yeah, so they might have been dropping elsewhere. I know the one I showed you he did one drop on the Hague I know that.
TW: Yeah, Yeah.
RP: But the Americans also came in afterwards and I think they may —
TW: Well I was too young to actually know the ins and outs, you know. If I’d been older I probably would’ve known.
RP: So did you — so ten years later after the war did your parents talk about it or was it forgotten?
TW: Never
RP: No.
TW: Obviously, I mean we never asked somehow. We should’ve done because, you know, they could’ve answered a lot of questions. No we never talked about it. It’s only my sister two years ago wanted to know because she didn’t know anything [coughs]
RP: Is your sister still in Holland?
TW: No.
RP: No. So is there anything I should need to tell them because that’s been fascinating but — I mean when you said about the four hundred that wasn’t the total [unclear] was there more over time than the four hundred do you think?
TW: Well it was the highest in one week.
RP: In one week? So it was a weekly thing so —
TW: Oh yes.
RP: So it could’ve been thousands?
TW: Oh. If it hadn’t been for my father I don’t see we would’ve made it. My mother was useless. She was suffering a [unclear] which is very — your legs swell up and —
RP: Oh yes.
TW: You know, and she just mentally was out of it completely.
RP: Well that’s been fascinating and really, thank you for telling us all that. It’s been a pleasure listening.
TW: I think that’s it.
RP: It’s been fascinating and thank you very much indeed because it’s a little known story and I think it will be valuable information. So thank you very much for that. You did twenty-eight minutes. There you go.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWarwickT170322
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Thea Warwick
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:28:56 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rod Pickles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-22
Description
An account of the resource
Thea Warwick was seven years old and living in Rotterdam during the war. She recounts what is was like during the Hongerwinter. Walking for miles to soup kitchens and talks about other examples of how they obtained food. They moved into the smallest room of their house to try and keep warm and had to go out searching for wood to burn. She recalls waiting on their roof for planes to drop food parcels and remembers being woken up by an explosion which was a V-1 landing on a block of houses about half a mile away from them. She remembers the Germans searching for their neighbour and standing on the balcony of their house pointing guns down the gardens for hours on end. She recalls the day of liberation and when the Canadian tanks rolled into her town. An explanation is given how everyone in the street celebrated.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Netherlands
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tracy Johnson
anti-Semitism
bombing
childhood in wartime
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
round-up
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/275/3620/PHughesAM15010003.1.jpg
3ed59b25af25e5b8bd2944ad586e4b57
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/275/3620/PHughesAM15010004.1.jpg
2c14687e203bd37abaa4af1c6d600cb3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hughes, Angas
Angas Hughes
Angas M Hughes
A M Hughes
A Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
29 items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Angas Murray Hughes (b. 1923, 417845 Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook, prisoner of war identity cards and dog tags, two memoirs and 21 photographs. Angas Hughes flew 32 operations as a bomb aimer with 467 Squadron from RAF Waddington. One of the aircraft he flew in was Lancaster R5868, S-Sugar, now at RAF Hendon. He was shot down in September 1944 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Angas Hughes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Hughes, AM
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined]F/Bomb Depot at St. Leu. d'Esserent 30 miles north of Paris[/underlined]
Debris and blasted trees litter the approach to the tunnel entrance. The entrance itself appears to have been cleared since the attack by R.A.F Bomber Command. The group of people standing just in front of the tunnel entrance were so taken by surprise by the low flying Mustang that they did not have time to run for shelter.
C4566
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
F/Bomb Depot at St. Leu d'Esserent
Description
An account of the resource
Low level oblique aerial photograph of a narrow road leading from the bottom left up a valley to the centre where it meets the square entrance to a tunnel in a hillside. To the left of the valley and above the entrance are trees.
Format
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One b/w photograph
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
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PHughesAM15010003, PHughesAM15010004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Creil
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Claire Monk
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
aerial photograph
P-51
reconnaissance photograph
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/367/5826/PCavalierRG17010018.1.jpg
0dcd06a6a98b46979b8f225140f85d38
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cavalier, Reginald George. Album one
Description
An account of the resource
57 items. Photograph album showing pictures taken during Reginald George Cavalier's service as a squadron photographer. It includes material from his photographic course training in 1940, and service with 76 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George, and with 88 Squadron and 226 Squadron with 2 Group and 2nd Tactical Air Force at RAF West Raynham. The album also includes target photographs, images of Christmas parties, visits by VIPs including Eisenhower and the King, as well as captured German ordnance and aircraft in France, the Netherlands and Germany.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cavalier, RG
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomb damaged V-1 site
Description
An account of the resource
Photographs 1, 2 and 4 are of airmen standing and sitting on a V-1 launch ramp.
Photographs 3, 5 and 6 are of airmen standing on the badly damaged concrete protection at the site.
Photograph 7 is of four airmen standing in a large bomb crater.
Photograph 8 and 9 shows airmen inside a damaged bunker with a rail track. Captioned: 'V.1. Site, Northern France.'
'137 Wing, Shq Photographic Section March 1945.'
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1945-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Nine b/w photographs on an album page
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCavalierRG17010018
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
bombing
ground personnel
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/283/6693/LJonesTJ184141v1.2.pdf
5748d2448d5ea2cadc0c3e9a2aadc8de
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, Thomas John
Tom Jones
T Jones
Description
An account of the resource
62 items. An oral history interview with Peter William Arthur Jones (b. 1954) about his father Thomas John Jones DFC (b. 1921, 1640434 and 184141 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs, correspondence, service documents, aircraft recognition manuals, medals and a memoir. He flew operations as a flight engineer on 622 Squadron Stirling and 7 Squadron on Lancaster. <br /><br />The collection also contains an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2566">Album</a> of 129 types of aircraft. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Jones and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-12-04
2017-12-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jones, PW
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Jones’ navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book for Sergeant Tom Jones from 17 August 1943 to 27 August 1945. Detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Served at RAF Mildenhall, RAF Warboys, RAF Oakington, RAF Nutts Corner, RAF Riccall and RAF Dishforth. Aircraft flown were. Stirling, Lancaster, Oxford, C-47 and York. He flew a total of 11-night operations with 622 squadron and 51 operations with 7 squadron pathfinder force. 18 daylight and 33-night operations on the following targets in France, Germany, the Netherlands and Poland: Aachen, Amiens, Aulnoye, Berlin, Biennias [sic], Cabourg, Cagney [sic], Chalons sur Marne, Chambley, Dortmund, Duisburg, Emden, Essen, Falaise, Fougeres, Foret de l'Isle-Adam, Franceville, Hannover, Homburg, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Kattegat, Kiel, Le Havre, Lille, Liuzeux [sic], Ludwigshafen, Lumbres, Montrichard, Mt Couple [sic], Mantes, Normandy battle area, Oisemont, <span>Œuf-en-Ternois</span> [sic], Renescure, Rennes, Schweinfurt, Skagerrak, St Martin d’Hortiers, Stettin, Stuttgart, Tergnier, Thiverny, Tours, Valenciennes, Venlo aerodrome and V-1 sites. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Phillips DFC, Wing Commander Lockhart and Wing Commander Cox. The log book is well annotated with comments about events during operations.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LJonesTJ184141v1
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Skagerrak
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
France--Amiens
France--Cabourg
France--Chambley Air Base
France--Falaise
France--La Pallice
France--Le Havre
France--Lille
France--L'Isle-Adam
France--Lumbres
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Montrichard
France--Nord (Department)
France--Normandy
France--Nieppe Forest
France--Oise
France--Oisemont (Canton)
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Rennes
France--Somme
France--Tergnier (Canton)
France--Tours
France--Valenciennes
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--Venlo
Northern Ireland--Antrim (County)
Poland--Szczecin
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
France--Châlons-en-Champagne
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Œuf-en-Ternois
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1943-09-21
1943-09-22
1943-09-27
1943-09-28
1943-10-02
1943-10-03
1943-10-04
1943-11-18
1943-11-22
1943-11-23
1944-01-30
1944-01-31
1944-02-20
1944-02-21
1944-02-24
1944-02-25
1944-03-01
1944-03-02
1944-04-09
1944-04-10
1944-04-11
1944-04-12
1944-04-18
1944-04-19
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-04-26
1944-04-27
1944-05-01
1944-05-02
1944-05-06
1944-05-07
1944-05-21
1944-05-22
1944-05-23
1944-05-24
1944-05-25
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-31
1944-06-01
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-11
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-17
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-07-01
1944-07-04
1944-07-06
1944-07-08
1944-07-12
1944-07-15
1944-07-16
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-21
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-04
1944-08-06
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-13
1944-08-28
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-01
1944-09-03
1944-09-05
1944-09-06
1944-09-09
1944-09-10
1944-06-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
1657 HCU
622 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
C-47
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Dishforth
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Nutts Corner
RAF Oakington
RAF Riccall
RAF Stradishall
RAF Warboys
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/442/7861/PTwellsE15070064.1.jpg
1fc40d09963c4091b813ff79f1a2d33a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/442/7861/PTwellsE15070065.1.jpg
90ef4a6756bdc840900c78de970685d6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/442/7861/PTwellsE15070066.1.jpg
0ec30fea4a141ce6ca9313cfec47b159
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Twells, Ernie. Album
Description
An account of the resource
A scrapbook containing photographs and documents of Ernie Twells' wartime and post-war service including squadron reunions. The photographs and documents are contained in wallets in a scrapbook. The wallet page has been scanned and then the individual items rescanned. The scans have been grouped together.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Twells, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
15
Wartime pilot is praised
Dambusters’ pilot Bob Knight has paid tribute to the war service of Mr. Ernest Twells of 2 Abbott Street, Long Eaton, who died recently.
Mr. Twells, who served in the Royal Air Force as a Flight Engineer during the 1939 to 1945 conflict, joined the famous 617 Squadron just after the daring, bouncing bomb raid. But he flew with Mr. Knight on precision raids of pinpoint German factories, U-boat pens, V1 and V2 rocket sites and other special targets.
OWED LIVES
Aged about 34 at the time, Mr. Twells was affectionately referred to as ‘Dad’ by the rest of his crew – the average age of the Dambusters being between 21 and 23.
Speaking of him at a funeral service, Mr. Knight said the crew of his Lancaster bomber ‘Thumper’ knew they owed their lives to Ernest Twells.
“It was,” he stated, “due to his thorough and immaculate knowledge of the flight engineering that we never run short of fuel, even on our longest diversions.”
Originally from Wilford, Mr. Twells, who leaves a widow, Mrs. Doris Twells, a son, Ernest and a daughter, Margaret, first came to Long Eaton in 1937 to work as a race twist-hand at Byard’s.
Rising to management level in his work, which he returned to after the war, Mr. Twells joined the RAF auxiliary in 1938 and was called-up for active service at the outbreak of war.
AWARDED DFC
Serving first as an engine fitter, Mr. Twells was promoted to sergeant and then to flight engineer.
His training in Lancasters began early in 1943 when he served with 619 Squadron at Swinderby and later at Woodhall Spa, from where he took part in 30 raids over Hamburg and Berlin.
While in the Dambusters’ team, Mr. Twells served under the command of Group Captain Len Cheshire and, together with the rest of the team, was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for taking part in 70 operations over Germany and other enemy territory.
He was among the crew which sunk the German battle cruiser Tirpitz, sister ship of the Bismark, in the Norwegian Fjiords.
A keen member of the international Dambusters’ Associations, Mr. Twells had attended reunions in many parts of the world, including Canada and Australia.
[page break]
[Crest of Buckingham Palace]
BUCKINGHAM PALACE.
I greatly regret that I am unable to give you personally the award which you have so well earned.
I now send it to you with my congratulations and my best wishes for your future happiness.
[signature] George R.I. [/signature]
Flight Lieutenant Ernest Twells, D.F.C.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ernie Twells' Obituary and letter from the King
Description
An account of the resource
Ernie Twells' obituary detailing his life before, during and after the war.
A letter from the King awarding Ernie Twells his Distinguished Flying Cross.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
A newspaper cutting and printed sheet on a scrapbook page
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PTwellsE15070064, PTwellsE15070065, PTwellsE15070066
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Laura Morgan
617 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter engine
flight engineer
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
ground crew
Lancaster
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Swinderby
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tirpitz
V-1
V-2
V-weapon