2
25
256
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/442/7870/PTwellsE15070083.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/442/7870/PTwellsE15070082.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Twells, Ernie. Album
Description
An account of the resource
A scrapbook containing photographs and documents of Ernie Twells' wartime and post-war service including squadron reunions. The photographs and documents are contained in wallets in a scrapbook. The wallet page has been scanned and then the individual items rescanned. The scans have been grouped together.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Twells, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Flight Lieutenant Bob Knights
[italics] Pilot who bombed the Tirpitz three times and became a training captain with British Airways [/italics]
[photograph]
Knights (third from left) with his crew from 619 Squadron at Woodhall Spa on December 20 1943, just before taking off for a raid on Frankfurt
FLIGHT LIEUTENANT BOB KNIGHTS, who has died aged 83, flew his Lancaster bomber of No 617 Squadron on the three major attacks against the [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] that culminated, on November 12 1944, in the sinking of the powerful German battleship which had dominated British and American naval strategy in the European theatre.
With a firm foothold on the European continent, the Allies were anxious to deploy their naval forces to other theatres, but the threat posed by the [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] prevented this. Churchill pressed incessantly for the destruction of the “beast”, as he called her. Bomber Command and the Royal Navy had mounted many attacks against the battleship, and some damage had been inflicted; but the ship was still capable of making dangerous forays against the convoys to Russia.
In September 1944 Lancaster bombers of Nos 9 and 617 Squadrons were sent to attack the battleship with the 12,000-lb Tallboy bomb and mines. [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] was moored in Alten Fjord in the extreme north of Norway, beyond the range of the Lancasters operating from Scotland, so the force flew to Yagodnik, near Archangel, on September 11.
Knights and his crew were were [sic] accommodated on a houseboat, where bedbugs were their main companions. Four days later, Wing Commander Willie Tait, the CO of No 617, led the force to attack the battleship, but their efforts were thwarted by a dense smokescreen. Knights lost an engine over the target and returned to Yagodnik with his bomb still on board.
The Germans moved [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] south to Tromso, which put her just within range of the airfields in northern Scotland, from where another attack was mounted on October 29. The bombers faced heavy anti-aircraft fire, but Knights was able to drop his bomb, which landed very close and rocked the battleship. He remained circling the target as other bombs fell around the ship. Reconnaissance photographs suggested that the battleship remained intact, but, unknown to the Allies, she had sustained sufficient damage to render her no longer a threat.
On November 12 the bomber force carried out their third attack, this time in perfect weather.
Knights dropped his Tallboy, which was “a very near miss”, then descended to low level and flew around the ship, which he saw roll over on to her side after three direct hits. Short of fuel, Knights landed at a small fighter airfield at Peterhead. It was his last bombing operation of the war.
The crews of Nos 9 and 617 received a number of decorations, with Knights being awarded the DSO.
The son of a carpenter, Robert Edgar Knights was born on January 18 1921 at Fulham, London. He attended Fulham School for Boys, where he excelled at football. He played for the London Schoolboys’ XI that won the Schoolboys’ cup at Stamford Bridge, Chelsea, in 1935. He volunteered for service as a pilot with the RAF and was called up in March 1941.
Knights was trained in America under the “Arnold Scheme”. When flying over Florida, his instructor managed to get them lost and Knights was forced to bale out – a farmer thought he was a German.
After returning to England to complete his training, he was forced to bale out again, badly injuring his hand, when his aircraft crashed through the roof of a barn. He was commissioned six months later.
In June 1943 Knights joined No 619 Squadron flying the Lancaster. Soon afterwards the Battle of Berlin began, and Knights made eight attacks against the “Big City” – Bomber Command’s losses were particularly high. On another occasion he was en route to bomb Hamburg when one of his engines failed shortly after reaching the Dutch coast, and he would have been justified in turning back; but he pressed on and bombed the target successfully. Within six months he had completed his tour of 30 operations and was awarded the DFC.
He and his crew were due for a six-month rest, but decided that they wanted to “do something more challenging”. They volunteered for service with No 617 (Dam Busters) Squadron, and, after an interview with Leonard Cheshire, No 617’s CO, they were taken on.
Cheshire had developed low-level target-marking techniques with No 617 and, with the arrival of Barnes Wallis’s new Tallboy bomb, the squadron specialised in attacking pinpoint targets such as concrete U-boat and E-boat shelters, aero-engines works and the V1 flying bomb sites.
During the lead-up to the Normandy invasion, Knights bombed tunnels, rail marshalling yards and bridges to block German reinforcement routes to the invasion area. The Tallboys, dropped with great accuracy on the target markers by Cheshire and his fellow marker-crews, caused devastating damage. Once the Allies were firmly established in north-west Europe, No 617 turned its attention to the [italic] Tirpitz [/italic].
After flying 67 bombing operations, Knights was rested, and in June 1945 he was seconded to BOAC to fly converted Lancasters on routes to the Middle East and Australia, which the airline was re-establishing.
Knights left the RAF at the end of 1946 to join BOAC, and over the next few years he flew the Argonaut and the Boeing Stratocruiser, the latter on the North Atlantic route. After a spell on the Britannia, Knights converted to jets; he flew the inaugural VC 10 flight to Montreal in 1966. Later he flew the Boeing 747 and was one of the fleet’s training captains. He retired from British Airways in 1976.
A very modest man, Knights gave strong support to RAF charities. He was president of the Guildford branch of the RAFA and a long-standing member of the Aircrew Association. He developed a keen interest in bell-ringing and became captain of the bell tower at St Peter and St Paul at Albury, near Guildford. A good golfer and tennis player, he was also a lifelong supporter of Fulham FC.
Bob Knights died on December 4. In 1947 he married a serving WAAF, Helen Maloney, who survived him with their two sons and a daughter.
[page break]
[previous page repeated as entry in scrapbook]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bob Knights' Obituary
Description
An account of the resource
The obituary of Flight Lieutenant Bob Knights. It details his operations on the Tirpitz, his early life, his training in Florida, his time with 617 Squadron and his role with BOAC after the war until his retirement in 1976.
Format
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A newspaper cutting from a scrapbook.
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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PTwellsE15070082, PTwellsE15070083
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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France
Norway
Russia (Federation)
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
pilot
submarine
Tallboy
Tirpitz
V-1
V-weapon
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/201/8347/ABaileyJD161207.2.mp3
3d78aa3a379aecd3a869c35e82fac2d1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, John Derek
John Derek Bailey
Bill Bailey
John D Bailey
John Bailey
J D Bailey
J Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with John Derek "Bill" Bailey (b. 1924, 1583184 and 198592 Royal Air Force) service material, nine photographs, a memoir and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a bomb aimer with 103 and 166 Squadrons from RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Bailey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-12-07
2017-01-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Bailey, JD
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive between Harry Bartlett, volunteer interviewer and Mr John Derek Bailey who is normally known as Derek and in the RAF was known as Bill. Pilot officer. And his service number was 198592 and Derek was born on the 2nd of February 1924. Right, Derek. Obviously, we’re interested in what you did before the war as well. So, you know, what, what, where did you actually live before the war?
JDB: I lived on Railway Farm and Shackerdale Farm at Wigston.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: You’ll know where Shackerdale Farm was.
HB: Yes.
JDB: Because it’s near to where you now live.
HB: Yes. Yes.
JDB: But it’s now gone of course.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Their farm is a housing estate.
HB: Yes, absolutely.
JDB: On both, both sites actually.
HB: Did you, did you go to school in the Wigston area, Derek?
JDB: Yes I did. I went to, I went to school on the Saffron Lane Estate at a junior school and I did the, them days eleven plus exam which I passed and I got accepted to go to the Gateway School in Leicester and then the authorities found or discovered that where we lived on the farm which was then Railway Farm at the time which is up alongside the cemetery.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Was actually in the county of Leicester and not in the city. So they wouldn’t let me go to the Gateway School.
HB: Oh dear.
JDB: So, so I therefore ended up going to South Wigston Intermediate School and there I remained until I passed the, there was a school leaving examination. It was called the EMEU, the East Midland Education Union and I passed that and I was then fourteen and a half and I was supposed to stay at school ‘til I was fifteen but because I’d passed this exam and finished they let me leave school in August and I went to work as a trainee draughtsman which is what I wanted to do, at Constone, in South Wigston and then the war started of course. I left school in 1938 and then I was still working there at Constone and the building materials, the reconstructed stonework that Constone manufactured became a sort of luxury building side, side stream thing and they finished up building air raid shelters mainly which minimised the need for a draughtsman so I, I got a bit fed up and I decided I’d like to leave and you had to go to the Labour Exchange. You couldn’t just do what you wanted in those days and so I went and they allowed me to leave Constone and I was sent to Fred Edling at Blaby to work there and I got on very well with Fred. I did a bit of draughtsmanshiping for him and -
HB: What did he do? What was that firm doing?
JDB: He was road transport.
HB: Right.
JDB: And he was the first, first haulier in Leicester, Leicestershire, to have a low loader and doing what you might call heavy haulage and I got on alright there. Very well. And so on my eighteenth birthday, I’d already made my mind up about this because I was in the Air Training Corps when it was formed in 1941 and I decided I wanted to go into the air force. You had to be eighteen. And on my eighteenth birthday I got on my bike and went down to Ulverscroft Road in Leicester and enlisted in the Royal Air Force and I went home and told my mum I’d just joined the Air Force and she burst in to tears of course.
HB: Yeah. Well you would wouldn’t you?
JDB: Yeah. And anyway so it was now I did the various acceptance tests and all that sort of thing and then they said, ‘Ok, you’re in,’ and I was given, I got a letter actually from Sir Archibald Sinclair who was the secretary of state for something or other, air I suppose and I was given what was called deferred service and so I was sent, I was, I was given a number and everything, sent home to carry on doing what I was doing until they sent for me and so -
HB: So when, when would that be, Derek?
JDB: Well I joined on the 2nd of February of course and they gave me this deferred service to wait until I was called so I was working for Fred and he, he said to me, he had an office in London as well, in Deptford and he said, the manager down there was, got called up, so he said to me, ‘Would you go down and run London office for the time being ‘til you go?’ And I was only eighteen mind.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Anyway, I said, ‘Yes.’ So one Monday morning on to one of his lorries, as a passenger of course and off we went to London and I’d been down there for, I can’t remember a time, a few weeks anyway and I said I’d like to come home for the weekend so he said ok so on one of the lorries again, back home and when I got home there was a letter waiting for me from the air ministry and it was to give me joining instructions to report to Air Crew Reception Centre at Lord’s Cricket Ground.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: On the 27th of July 1942. You can never forget some of these dates can you?
HB: No. No. No. I wouldn’t have thought. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. The 27th of July.
HB: They’re important.
JDB: I reported, reported to Lord’s Cricket Ground and that started my RAF career then. So do you want me to just go on?
HB: Derek, whatever you want to tell me. I’m, I’m enthralled now. I mean when you went to the, to Lord’s Cricket Ground.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Did you do tests to decide what branch you were going to go in or –
JDB: Oh no.
HB: Did you just get brought in?
JDB: No. I should have told you that. When I joined and I went over to Birmingham for attestation as they called it and medicals and God knows what and I had the medical. They said, I wanted to be a pilot you see and they said, they did the medicals and said, ‘Sorry. You can’t be a pilot but you can be a navigator.’ I said, ‘Well why can’t I be a pilot then?’ He said, ‘Because you’ve got a defect in your eyesight. You -
HB: Oh.
JDB: It’s a convergency problem and you would probably try to land an aircraft about twelve or fifteen feet off the deck.’
HB: Right.
JDB: And so –
HB: Not something you want to do.
JDB: No. No. That’s right. ‘So you, so you’ll have to be, you’ll be a UT navigator.’ So that’s what I went to be. Now then. We got to Lord’s Cricket Ground. There, we were there for I think it was either two or three weeks. It wasn’t long and you got all your jabs for this, that and every other bloody thing and oh this one, I remember one morning we were on parade. Now, I was among those who were one up because we’d already done the drill.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We could do that.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We didn’t have to be taught and so on and one morning we were on parade and some sadistic bloody corporal calls out names, ‘Right. One pace forward the following. Bailey JD.’ I went, ‘Yes,’ and that was me and about another two guys and he said, ‘You’ve volunteered to give a pint of blood.’ I said, ‘Oh. Oh thank you very much corporal.’ Oh no. No. That’s alright. You know so, I said ‘What do you want a pint of my blood for?’ He said, ‘Well you’ve got an unusual blood group and they need your blood to group other people’s blood.’ But, now I don’t understand that. But -
HB: No. No but -
JDB: Anyway, that’s -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: What was said.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And that was just one of the things.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
JDB: Then we were marched off to the cinema to watch gory VD films and -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: You know, keep clear.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And all that sort of thing and then after I think it was about three weeks, they said, ‘Right you’re being posted now to await your next posting. You’re going to Ludlow to a camp until you’re posted to Initial Training Wing,’ and we went to Ludlow which, there were three wings there of all UT aircrew.
HB: UT’s under training.
JDB: Under training.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: UT air crew and there were so many airmen in Ludlow that they only let one wing out on the town each night. Not that that prevented us doing so but anyway that was, that was Ludlow. So it was three weeks at Ludlow and then the posting came through and I was lucky. I got a nice posting to, I’ve forgotten the number of the ITW now but it’s in, it’s in, I’ve got a record of it somewhere and off we went by train to Ludlow and we got, yeah we got off the train, ‘Fall in, pick up your kit,’ kitbag on your back. March down to, I was billeted in the Torbay Hotel on the seafront.
HB: Oh.
JDB: On the harbour. It’s not called the Torbay Hotel now but it, you can still see where it was written on the wall and there we were and we were at Torbay in Paignton until New Year’s Day would you believe and in that time we did various subjects like, well all sorts of subjects. Meteorology, air navigation, armoury, gunnery. The Browning 303 machine gun, the mainstay of nearly everything.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I remember a corporal armourer giving a lecture on the Browning 303 machine gun. He’d got one on the desk in front of him and he said, it was his party piece, he starts off saying, ‘This is the Browning 303 machine gun. It works by recoil action. When the gun is fired the bullet nips smartly up the barrel hotly pursued by the gasses.’ [laughs]
HB: I like it. It was a good description.
JDB: I always remember that Harry.
HB: Yeah. Good description. Yeah.
JDB: It was a party piece that was.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Anyway -
HB: So this, this was New Year’s Day. 19 -
JDB: New Year’s Day 1943.
HB: ‘43 right.
JDB: Yeah and I hadn’t my great coat on up till that day.
HB: Oh.
JDB: And we were posted from there to Brighton and it was like going to the bloody North Pole.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Compared with Paignton and then we were, and Brighton was a holding unit. You’ll hear that word a lot actually.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Holding units while waiting to go somewhere else and we got there and we marched up and down and roundabout and all that and, and one day whoever it was, I can’t remember, probably a sergeant or flight sergeant got us on parade and said, ‘Right, now then, the air ministry have invented a new trade in the air crew trades and it’s called an air bomber.’ Instead of a navigator dropping the bombs as well he hadn’t got time to do that so we now have got a trade called air bomber and the air bomber will be the second pilot, he will be the radar navigator, he will drop the bombs and various other things. The Daily Sketch had a full front page and it said, “This guy’s job is no joke” and it listed our full list of jobs. [laughs]
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Anyway, this guy who had gone on parade said, ‘The air ministry have invented this new trade. Now, anybody who would like to volunteer to move from UT navigator to air bomber we will guarantee a quick posting instead of being sat here for weeks on end,’ And so, so of course Derek Bailey was one of those who stepped forward.
HB: Right.
JDB: Very quickly and within a week we were on our way to Heaton Park, Manchester ready for embarkation to Canada.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: And -
HB: So, how did you, so you went to Heaton Park.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Got booked in there, and then from there you went to Canada.
JDB: Went up to go to Glasgow to board ship.
HB: Oh right. So you went from Glasgow. Right.
JDB: Yeah from Port Glasgow. It was on a ship called the Andes and the minute it left the Clyde I was seasick and I was seasick till I got off in Halifax.
HB: Oh no.
JDB: Nova Scotia.
HB: Oh dear.
JDB: Yeah. Anyway, so then we were in Canada. We went from Halifax, Nova Scotia on the train to Monkton.
HB: Right.
JDB: New Brunswick. Which was a massive camp for all air crew who went to Canada for training. Went through Monkton and came back through Monkton.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: It was a massive place.
HB: So, what, what was its purpose? Just a –
JDB: Just a transit camp.
HB: Just a transit to get you in, get you sorted.
JDB: That’s it, get you with some extra bits of kit.
HB: Right.
JDB: Like, we got there in the winter of course and it was bloody cold you know and if you were to walk around without your ears covered up they’d be frozen.
HB: Oh dear.
JDB: Anyway. So that was it the. Eventually they got us on a train and sent us out to Carberry in Manitoba to another, which was an, which was a training station. Pilot training. And they just sent us there to be housed until they were ready for us where we were supposed to be and we got to Carberry and we, and every so often on the way over through Ottawa and Montreal and where else did we go? Where the train stopped and they took some bodies off with scarlet fever.
HB: Oh dear.
JDB: And we got to Carberry and we’d been there about a day and I got my sore throat and whatever and I’d got it, scarlet fever, along with others and I spent five weeks in hospital just feeling alright and doing nothing but you know. I went from, they took me, took us from Carberry to a place called Brandon in Saskatchewan in an isolation hospital. You know scarlet fever is highly, what’s the word I want?
HB: Contagious.
JDB: That’s it. And, and there we were. Then we got two weeks leave, sick leave, after the five weeks. Myself and another bloke from Manchester we got five weeks, no, two weeks sick leave and all the pay for the five weeks as well had accrued and off we went on the train to Winnipeg and had a holiday in Winnipeg.
HB: Oh dear.
JDB: Yeah. Lovely.
HB: I bet you enjoyed that.
JDB: Oh we did.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We did. I learned to skate among other things. Anyway, and then eventually we got posted off to Picton, Ontario which was number 31 Bombing And Gunnery School and that’s where we did our first bomb dropping and air firing of, not a Browning, it was Vickers gas operated -
HB: So -
JDB: Machine.
HB: When you got to Picton -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: The, were, were you actually going up in aircraft?
JDB: Oh yeah. When we got to Picton that was the start of the serious business of training.
HB: Right.
JDB: And we were, you were learning bomb aiming and air gunnery.
HB: Right.
JDB: We used to do, the air firing was shooting at drogues towed by Lysanders. I don’t know if you were aware of what they are.
HB: The, the, yeah. Yeah.
JDB: A Lyssie.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. High wing and over the top.
JDB: That’s it. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. And -
HB: So where were you firing from? What sort of, were you flying from an aircraft?
JDB: From a, from a Bolingbroke which is a Canadian built Blenheim.
HB: Right. A Bolingbroke.
JDB: Bolingbroke. Yeah. It was the same, same aircraft.
HB: Right.
JDB: But Canadian built as a Blenheim.
HB: Right.
JDB: Oh and the bombing we did from Ansons.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Ansons. With ten pound practice bombs.
HB: Right.
JDB: We did eight in an exercise normally.
HB: And how often, how often would you expect to sort of go up and do that in your time there? Would that be every couple of days?
JDB: I count them in my logbook.
HB: Right. It would be sort of every few days would it?
JDB: Oh yeah. Yeah. And then when we finished at Picton, that part of the training, we were moved to Mount Hope which is at the end side of lake, what lake is that one? No, not Erie. Lake Ontario.
HB: Lake Ontario. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. Of course it is. So Picton is sort of one side of Toronto, in the, Picton [island in the lake].
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And Mount Hope was the other end at Hamilton. Mount Hope is now Hamilton Airport.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
JDB: And they have, they have, I’ve been there in the last few years. They have there the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum I think they call it and they’ve got a load of aircraft there including one Lancaster.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: Which are all flying examples. They haven’t got any statics. They don’t have, don’t want static aeroplanes. They want aeroplanes that can fly and so that’s at Mount Hope and we did our navigation part of the training there and having completed that we then got our wing, our single wing. It, it was what used to be called a flying arsehole. The old brevvy was. You know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And then having got that presented on wings parade I think, I think we were back in England, we got back to England and the air ministry decided that that was going to be abolished, that wing, and we were going to have a single wing like other trades and it would say, it would have a B in it so that’s what I’ve got and -
HB: So when, so you finished your training.
JDB: At Mount Hope.
HB: At Mount Hope.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And then you came back through Monkton.
JDB: Back through Monkton.
HB: And you got back to England.
JDB: Well we got back to, yeah. There were about a dozen of us put on to the ship, the Mauretania, when we came back and we were put on and we were sergeants now. We got promoted to sergeant at the same time as getting the wing.
HB: Right.
JDB: And, yeah that’s right and we were put on the ship and we were sent, well there were, I think about a dozen of us. The OC troops was a squadron leader and we were his crew and we said, ‘What are we here for?’ He said, ‘Well tomorrow we’re embarking a load of American,’ you know, their Pioneer Corps type.
HB: Right.
JDB: You know, engineers or whatever you call them and these Americans all came on board and that was a joke if ever you’ve seen one. We got them all. They didn’t know where they were going. They thought they were going to Iceland and then they said, they were saying to us, ‘Well, where do we pick up the convoy then?’ We should have said, ‘What convoy.’ [laughs]
HB: Oh dear, oh dear.
JDB: Oh dear. ‘Well we just go and nip off smartly and keep out the way of bloody U-boats if any.’ And so that was that.
HB: So was the Mauretania. Was that a liner?
JDB: It was. Yeah. It was quite a -
HB: A big.
JDB: Modern liner.
HB: Right. Yeah.
JDB: That was. Funnily enough a pal of mine who lived in Hinckley and he died recently but he, I told him I’d been on the Mauretania he was an avid cruiser and he produced a photograph of the Mauretania for me.
HB: Lovely. Lovely.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Oh that’s very -
JDB: Yeah
JB: So where, what sort of dates are we talking about you getting back to England then?
JDB: It was not long before Christmas 1943.
HB: Right. Well that’s a good long time then.
JDB: We were there, we were over there nearly a year.
HB: Blimey.
JDB: Within a year.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And I came home. We landed in Liverpool and we went to Harrogate which was a holding unit, another holding unit. Holding unit for air crew returning from abroad.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: After training. Pending posting to the next training unit so there we were at Harrogate, over Christmas actually. But just before Christmas as I say we went home on leave in December and we got, I got, I think we got about a week’s leave so went home in December and I went home and saw my grandad in Wigston in Bushloe End.
HB: Oh right, yeah.
JDB: And, I think he was in Bushloe End still. No they weren’t. They were in Manor Street, they lived in Manor Street then and my grandad he was eighty five and he said to me, ‘Hello boy,’ he said, ‘I’ve been waiting for you to come home.’ And within a week he’d passed away.
HB: Oh.
JDB: And I went to the funeral while I was home.
HB: Oh.
JDB: Amazing. And then we went back, back to Harrogate and we were billeted in the Grand Hotel overlooking Valley Gardens in Harrogate and waiting where to go and then we, we, we got moved to another little holding unit as part of the, I’m trying to think of the name of the place between Preston and Blackpool.
HB: Padgate?
JDB: Who?
HB: Padgate?
JDB: No.
HB: No that was further up wasn’t it?
JDB: No the -
HB: That was Blackpool.
JDB: No that was further down. There was -
HB: Preston. Blackpool.
JDB: There’s a prison there now. I think it might be an open prison.
HB: Oh.
JDB: On the camp where we were and I’ve forgotten the name of it. It begins with K. Oh never mind anyway it doesn’t matter very much. I could easily find out. It’s about half way between Preston and Blackpool.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And we were stuck there for a few weeks and then got posted to North Wales to near Pwllheli and Ansons. It was a, it was an Advanced Flying Unit and it was equipped with Ansons and we did the bombing in, in the cove off, off the, just off the coast by Pwllheli.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And that was only a few weeks, you know. Went and did a bit of infra-red bombing and one thing or another.
HB: I was just going, I was just going to ask you Derek about the bomb sights because the time you went in for the training they must –
JDB: They were Mark 9 bomb sights up till now.
HB: Yeah. Right.
JDB: Ok.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: If you want to know more about that I can tell you but –
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But they were Mark 9 bomb sights up to that, up to this point.
HB: Right.
JDB: Then when we’d done the bombing bit we went to the 9, number 9 OAFU Observer Advanced Flying Unit. We were split into two parts. The bombing bit was at, just outside Pwllheli at, I forgot what it was called now. Aber some bloody thing. It would be in Wales wouldn’t it?
HB: Abersoch.
JDB: No, not quite as far -
HB: No.
JDB: As that. Anyway, we got moved then to Llandwrog which is Caernarfon Airport as such now and we’d got Ansons again but in the navigation role and we just roamed around the Irish Sea. They had an infra-red target on the end of the pier at Douglas on the Isle of Man and various other places and -
HB: So an infra-red target. What, what would that have been?
JDB: Infra-red, well a camera with, an infra-red camera pointing upwards and if you flew over it with an open shutter camera you get a trace.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: You know, you could work out where your bombs would have fallen.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And various other types of funny targets they used as well and anyway that was at Llandwrog and then they put, one morning we went in and they’d put a list up of various OTU’s, that’s Operational Training Units that you could express a preference for which you went to.
HB: Very nice.
JDB: Would you believe?
HB: Yeah, very nice.
JDB: And so you’d got found, on this list one was Desborough and I thought that’ll do me. That’s not far from home. So I put down for Desborough. When, when we came to be formed up to go and they said, ‘Righto. This group here, you’re going to Peplow aren’t you?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. I thought we were going to Desborough.’ ‘Well. Well, it’s Peplow.’ Anyway, off we went to Peplow and I still thought we were going to bloody Desborough. Anyway, we ended at Peplow which happens to be over by Newport, Salop.
HB: Yeah
JDB: Shropshire.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Where my daughter now lives. She lives just by there. Anyway, we got to, we got, finally got to Peplow. There we were. The next day there was a load of aircrew there just arrived. Pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, engineers, oh no we didn’t have a flight engineer at that stage. Gunners and so on and we were all, all were put in to a hangar, a big hangar and wandering around like bloody lost sheep and he said, ‘Right sort yourselves out, get yourself into crews of seven.’ And that’s how we -
HB: And that was it.
JDB: Formed a crew.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Somebody came to me and said, ‘I’m in George Knott’s crew. Can you join us as a bomb aimer?’ I said, ‘Yeah, ok.’ And that was it. Just so. Just like that.
HB: And these were blokes, you’d not, obviously not met any of these other guys other than the bomb aimers.
JDB: Well no.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We just met for the first time.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: All of us. So we did and then we had, then we did our training there.
HB: So, so in that hangar from that day.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You came, all came together as a group of seven.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So that’s your pilot.
JDB: I think we had seven at that stage but we only had one gunner on Wellingtons you see. So that -
HB: So you were crewing up for Wellingtons.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Right.
JDB: Oh that’s what we were crewing up for.
HB: Right.
JDB: I think we only had one gunner. We picked a second gunner up somewhere else and then when we got to Heavy Conversion Unit. Yeah. That was our next move. We went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Sandtoft up near Doncaster.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
JDB: Which is, which was, a Halifax, equipped with Halifax 2s and 5s. Merlin engined Halifaxes and the bloody accident record there was so bad that it was named Prangtoft.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Instead of Sandtoft. Yeah.
HB: Because, because it was a while before they changed the engines wasn’t it?
JDB: Well yeah.
HB: In the Halifax.
JDB: Yes and 4 Group which was the only group to operate Halifaxes. They, they got Halifax 3s which were radial engined.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And they were a superb aeroplane but they were useless at the others. Bloody terrible things. They were nice and comfortable for the crew.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But the performance was, left a bit to be desired.
HB: So when you went to the Heavy Conversion Unit -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Did you carry on with Wellingtons or did you move to the Halifaxes?
JDB: No. Moved straight to the Halifaxes.
HB: You went into the Halifaxes. Right.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Halifaxes and then when we’d finished on conversion to Halifaxes we then got posted to Lanc Finishing School to do only a week for the pilot to convert from Halifax to Lancaster. And -
HB: Right.
JDB: The Lancaster was a superb aeroplane. Still is.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Superb. We got, went on this and they gave you, gave us a familiarisation flight and, for the skipper and I can always remember going on this flight. We did a ninety degree turn in to two dead engines you know, them down.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Without losing any height.
HB: Blimey.
JDB: Superb aeroplane it was and that was at, and I’ve been trying to think of the name of the bloody place and I can’t at the moment, where we did that but it was about halfway between Lincoln and the Humber.
HB: Would it be in your logbook?
JDB: Yes. It would.
HB: Here you are. Let me have a look and I’ll see if I can find that. So what date are we talking about roughly there?
JDB: I can’t remember.
HB: Oh. This is, yeah this is it this is marked air bomber. Air bomber, navigation. Wow.
JDB: Yeah [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We never used the term air bomber really. It was a bomb aimer.
HB: It was, I was going to say it was something I hadn’t come across until I started doing this.
JDB: Well it was a B on the brevvy for starters.
HB: Yeah. Right. Hang on a minute. Where are we? That’s obviously Canada that is. ’43.
JDB: Yeah it would be on a bit Harry.
HB: ‘43 and we’ve got 83 OTU at Peplow.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. That’s all on the Wellington and then we’ve got Sandtoft at Doncaster.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You did a bit of night flying at Sandoft then.
JDB: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah. Where are we now? C flight. Hemswell.
JDB: Hemswell. That’s it.
HB: Hemswell. Familiarisation. Yeah.
JDB: Number 1 Lanc Finishing School.
HB: Yeah. Yes. Yes. I found that now.
JDB: Yeah. And from there we went to 103.
HB: Right. Because you had a pilot there, that was your Lancaster there was SCF2 and BCX.
JDB: There was the one that we got shot up. That was the second trip.
HB: Right. Yeah so that, so that takes you through, that takes you through to August ’44.
JDB: That’s right. Yeah. It was after D-Day.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Just after D-Day.
HB: Yeah. Blimey. Oh right yeah now it really starts doesn’t it?
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Elsham Wolds.
JDB: Yeah. Look at that first operation at Elsham.
HB: Yeah. 11th of August 1944. I’m reading this obviously Derek because, because, you know, your eyes aren’t so clever now.
JDB: I can’t even see it.
HB: And the pilot officer was Knott. Pilot Officer Knott. Air bomber. Cross country. That was, so that was your training flights.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Cross country air-sea firing and then, what? There’s one here. I’ve seen this before and I’ve never thought to ask about it Derek. It’s got the 24th of August 1944 and it’s got Knott and your duties as air bomber and it’s got Y cross country. What does the Y mean?
JDB: Y. Oh it was, Y cross country. It was, it was a radar.
HB: Ah.
JDB: Now what were we using ‘cause we were using Gee and -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Y. I think it might have been the start of H2S.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve heard of H2S so -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: That would be like the forerunner then. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. I think so. Something, something like that.
HB: Blimey and then yeah, you’re right. Then it’s your first operation and you’re straight in to Stettin.
JDB: Yeah. Just look at that -
HB: Stettin.
JDB: First operation. The time.
HB: Nine hours twenty five.
JDB: Nine hours twenty five minutes airborne.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: In a bloody Lancaster.
HB: At night. Yeah.
JDB: At night.
HB: Blimey, that, that is a, is a long -
JDB: That’s a long drag.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Believe me.
HB: Mind you, Stettin, Stettin was always a good -
JDB: Stettin. Yeah we went up over Sweden to get there. That’s why it took so long.
HB: Did the Swedes not complain?
JDB: Yeah they did.
HB: Did they?
JDB: They fired. They opened fire but they’re flak was at about ten thousand feet and we were at eighteen.
HB: Oh right so they did, so the Swedes -
JDB: They were very -
HB: The Swedes actually opened fire on you.
JDB: Oh yeah they were very accomo, they had to you see
HB: Yeah.
JDB: They were very accommodating.
HB: Yeah. What are, now what are you trying to say Derek [laughs] are you trying to say they were either bad gunners or they perhaps the -
JDB: No. I’m saying that they were very accurate gunners.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And made sure the flak didn’t go up near us.
HB: [laughs] I understand that. Blimey. So that, and that and that was with a five hundred pound LD, seven cans thirty pounds and seven cans four pound incendiaries.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: That’s a good load, that’s a good load. It’s still -
JDB: It is on that maximum range.
HB: Yeah. I was going to say that is on a long one like that.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And then your next one is [Argonville?].
JDB: Yeah. We got shot to pieces.
HB: Yeah and you say it’s shot to pieces right.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You tell me what you, what you remember of being shot to pieces and I’ll tell you what you’ve written in your logbook.
JDB: Damaged by flak haven’t I?
HB: Yeah. That’s all it says.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What happened there then?
JDB: Well at [Argonville] it was a flying bomb sight and we, that first trip when we went to Stettin it was, it was a doddle apart from weariness. We didn’t have any opposition apart from anti-aircraft fire which was sporadic to say the least and then we thought oh [Argonville] it’s only in France bloody hell piece of [?] it was. We got, we were briefed to bomb as I remember I think about seven thousand feet and we got over there and the target was cloud obscured. Couldn’t see it at all so the, and it was a master bomber raid so the master bomber called us up and said that, ‘Target obscured by cloud,’ called main force you know.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Descend to, descend to, I can’t remember exactly but say four thousand feet or five thousand feet, descend to five thousand feet or whatever it was. ‘No opposition.’ That was the master bomber who turned out to be, I understand the master bomber was Mr VC himself as a wing commander. What’s his name?
HB: Guy Gibson.
JDB: No.
HB: Cheshire.
JDB: Cheshire.
HB: Len Cheshire.
JDB: Correct.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Wing Commander Cheshire. So anyway we descended, we broke cloud and there were bloody shells bursting around us.
HB: Crikey.
JDB: I was looking out the front of the aircraft and there were two shell bursts right in front of me. And so I was down the front, down the nose, ready to drop the bombs and Paddy the rear gunner shouts, ‘We’re on fire skip,’ and we weren’t on fire. It was all the hydraulic fluid buggering off and we, we sort of over flew the target. I pressed the tit and nothing happened and so we did a circuit and I changed the main fuse and I pressed the tit again and nothing happened again so we couldn’t drop the bombs so we, we left the target area and started to make our way home. We were going to come up the North Sea and drop the bombs so, this was all my job you see. My responsibility. So I got the wireless op to help me and we, once we got over the dropping zone in the North Sea I got with me my piece of wire and dropped all the bombs manually.
HB: Oh.
JDB: Into the North Sea.
HB: Yeah
JDB: And then we then we realised we’d got no hydraulics so we couldn’t, we couldn’t do anything with the undercarriage or the flaps but you could, you could blow the undercarriage down by compressed air.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
JDB: But you could only do it once and once you’d done it you’d done it, you know and then -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: They were down –
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And they had to stay down so we made our way back to, towards Elsham and we were flying with, I think we put the wheels down at some point. I can’t remember, and we were going to do a flapless landing and, you know, which we did actually.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And we did, we did a bit of a hairy landing, rolled down the runway and hoped we could stop because we’d got no brakes either. No brakes and whatever and eventually we got the aircraft to the end of the runway and rolled it on to dispersal and a shell had burst just under the bloody bomb bay. God, we were near to it you know and all the wiring had gone and the hydraulic pipes had, were fractured and that’s where all the hydraulic fluid had gone and –
HB: That was -
JDB: Well that was that.
HB: Somebody was sitting on your shoulders that day weren’t they?
JDB: Well yeah that’s right. And then George went into briefing and got a right bollocking. He said, ‘You only just missed the bloody sergeant’s mess when you came in to land, Knott.’
HB: That’s George, that’s George. Is that Pilot Officer Knott? The pilot. George
JDB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Blimey.
JDB: He was not a happy chappy.
HB: I’m not surprised. So who, who were, what were the names of your crew on that one Derek?
JDB: The crew, there was my, there was George Knott was the skipper.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I was the bomb aimer of course. Ron Archer was the nav.
HB: The navigator.
JDB: Yes.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
JDB: Wally Williams was the flight engineer. Gus Leigh, I sent him a card today and I hope he’s still alive. He lives, he lives in Ripon.
HB: Right.
JDB: And where was I?
HB: Gus.
JDB: Gus. His name’s not Gus it’s Wilf.
HB: Wilf.
JDB: But we always called him, he was always known as Gus.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: In the air force. Anyway. Wilf Leigh, he was the wireless operator. He was the old man of the crew as well as it happened.
HB: How old was he then?
JDB: Well I was twenty one, I think. No I wasn’t. I was twenty -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: When I did my operations. He was about well I’m not quite sure. I think he was about six years older than me.
HB: Oh a real old fella then.
JDB: Well, yeah. I mean I can account for all of my crew except the gunners.
HB: Right.
JDB: I’ve never been able to find them. Anyway, I’ll tell you about him later.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But where, where was I? Yeah. That’s it.
HB: So you have Gus Leigh
JDB: Is the wireless op.
HB: Which gunner? He was the wireless op.
JDB: Jock Gregg, John Gregg was the mid upper and a little, little guy called, was the youngest member of the crew actually was Paddy Anderson was the rear gunner. He was only a small chap. Fitted in to the rear turret quite nicely. Yeah.
HB: [laughs] Right. And this was, that, that was, the Lancaster designation for that one was PM Papa Mike.
JDB: Yeah. PM was the -
HB: And then it was.
JDB: Designation letters -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: for 103.
HB: For 103 yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So that, and that was N. The letter N for that. Would that be for Nan in those days?
JDB: Nan, yes. N.
HB: N-Nan. Yeah. Yeah. ‘Cause I’d forgotten ‘cause you’d gone into that and by now.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You were then posted obviously to Elsham Wolds.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Into 103 squadron then.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So at some stage George Knott between Hemswell and Elsham Wolds he got promoted to pilot officer.
JDB: Yes. That’s right.
HB: So that was, that was another party then was it?
JDB: No. He was, he, it was automatic promotion up to flight lieutenant.
HB: Right.
JDB: George was a, what happened was while we were at Sandtoft George was then a flight sergeant. We were an all NCO crew.
HB: Right. Yeah.
JDB: And George got sent for while we were at Sandtoft to see the station commander and he went in to see him and he said to him, ‘Right. Flight sergeant, you are, you are to apply for a commission. The air ministry have decided that captains of four-engined aircraft shall be commissioned.’ So George said to the station commander, ‘But I don’t want to be commissioned sir. I have an all NCO crew and I’d like to stay with them.’ And he said, ‘It is air ministry policy Knott. You will do as you’re told.’
HB: Blimey. Yeah. I mean that’s, that’s not exactly, that’s not an argument you’re going to win is it?
JDB: No. Are you alright?
HB: Yeah. I’m just, I’m just making sure that we’re on track with the recorder ‘cause it did let me down once so I’m very very cautious of it. Making sure it’s working right. Yeah. It’s working fine.
JDB: And there we are.
HB: Yeah so then, I mean looking at this you’ve got quite a few daylight operations.
JDB: Yes.
HB: And there was one here caught my eye which was Cap Gris Nez.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: The only Gris Nez I know is sort of the Channel Islands.
JDB: No. Cap Gris Nez is near Calais.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Right
[Door opens.]
JDB: Hello Henry.
Other: Hello grandad.
JDB: Hello George.
HB: Here’s the boys. I tell you what we can do. We, ‘cause you sound like you need a drink.
JDB: You’re alright Harry.
HB: We’ll just pause it a minute.
[machine paused]
HB: Right. Resuming, resuming the interview.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And we’re looking at, its now round about twenty to four.
JDB: Blimey.
HB: And today is the 7th I forgot to say that at the beginning. It’s the 7th of December.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: 2016
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You see I was getting excited ‘cause you got your logbook out. So, right, so you did obviously things like Le Havre and Calais.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Were all in, all in support of the drive forward in to Europe.
JDB: Yeah. All in support of the troops on the ground.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: ‘Cause if you recall all of those things the channel ports were sort of all bypassed by the ground forces and surrounded.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And sort of tidied up afterwards.
HB: Right.
JDB: And not, not a pretty sight at times, I can tell you.
HB: No. No they must have been quite difficult on that one. So, yeah, so there was, so we’re going through from August the 11th ‘44 when you start with 103 and we get to the 28th, yeah 28th of September ‘44 and that’s, and you summarise that. You’ve done, blimey, one two, three, four. You’ve done well over ten daylight, thirteen, fourteen, fourteen daylight ops there and then we come to the 19th of October and you’re joining 166 squadron now.
JDB: Yes. That’s right.
HB: At Kirmington.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So -
JDB: Well -
HB: What was Kirmington like at that time?
JDB: What do you mean?
HB: Well what was it like as an airfield then? ‘Cause it’s -
JDB: Oh it was a perfectly functional airfield. They had got rid of all of their Wellingtons and were fully equipped with, with Lancs and the reason we went there was because they had to form a new A flight at Kirmington and they pinched two crews from 103 and we were one of the two.
HB: Oh right. So you didn’t volunteer for it obviously you were just -
JDB: Oh no. No. We just were told just do it.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: You know.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And Kirmington was a more pleasant place to be than Elsham because Elsham was up on top of the Wolds you know going towards the Humber and the road from Barnetby up to the Humber Bridge goes through the middle of the airfield.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. And there’s a water works up there where there’s a big memorial to 103 and 576 squadron. They shared that airfield.
HB: Yeah. ‘Cause I mean here you’re doing, you’re back on doing, well you’ve got a six hour night operation there to Essen. That’s what, that’s October ‘44 and you’ve got, oh you got hit again then on an operation to Cologne.
JDB: Where?
HB: Cologne.
JDB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Again another one of those little simple statements. “Aircraft damaged by flak,” you know.
JDB: Well yeah. Not badly though.
HB: Oh that was a bit better was it that time?
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. But what’s intriguing me here is -
JDB: Sorry.
HB: What’s intriguing me Derek is there’s another one to Cologne the following night and you’re taking off at twenty seven minutes past five and it’s got, you’ve written in your logbook. “Aborted. Rear gunner unconscious.”
JDB: Yeah. He was. We did a crew check. A crew check. No response from Paddy. Went down to him and he was out cold and I think it turned out to be a trapped pipe, oxygen pipe or some bloody thing.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: I can’t remember exactly.
HB: So that, so obviously that that was abortive. I mean, how far you were in to it? Can you remember?
JDB: No. Not far.
HB: No far. Oh right.
JDB: Didn’t count.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Didn’t count for the count up, you know.
HB: Oh right. Oh dear. Oh right yeah ‘cause yeah that’s I see what you mean two hours fifteen minutes and it was five hours forty for the previous one. So, so then, I mean, blimey you still did some fairly lengthy ops didn’t you?
JDB: Oh yeah once we got over to Leipzig area doing [Moritzburg? Loren?] and things like that.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: They were all a pretty long way.
HB: Got Freiburg, seven, seven hours fifteen.
JDB: Freiburg.
HB: Freiburg. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah. That’s in, down in the south of France. Down near the Swiss border.
HB: Right. Yeah. But you still, I see even you have still got these gardening operations dropping mines.
JDB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HB: What, ‘cause did they not count?
JDB: Oh yes they counted.
HB: They counted then did they?
JDB: Oh yeah. One of them was a long distance. We went up to Oslo Fjord with one.
HB: I’ve got one here marked it just says operation, ops gardening Norwegian waters. Six one thousand eight hundred pound mines.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And that was six hours forty five, that one.
JDB: Yeah that would be the one up Oslo Fjord.
HB: So, what, what was the threat there, Derek? Do you know?
JDB: What do you mean?
HB: Well you were mining off Norway.
JDB: Well we were mining in the Kattegat and the Skagerrak. We were mining channels, shipping channels which were taking troops and goods from Germany to Norway.
HB: Ah.
JDB: That was the thing. The danger to us there was flak ships mainly.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. [pause] Yeah, Yeah.
JDB: Say nothing Sue. Thanks.
HB: You’re very kind. Thank you. We’ve just had out refreshments delivered. Absolutely superb. Thank you. There’s just one little thing in here just caught my eye and that’s, where are we now? [coughs] Excuse me. November 1944. The 28th. You’re flying AS G-George and you’ve got flying officer Knott, George Knott. And then you’ve got a Flying Officer Yates.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And you’ve got written in there fighter affiliation Y bombing, practice bombing Alkborough.
JDB: Yeah. That was a non-operational. It’s blue.
HB: Yeah. Oh right.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: ‘Cause it just said -
JDB: A training flight.
HB: It just says six bombs and then it says sixty five yards dash twenty thousand.
JDB: Sixty five yards area at twenty thousand feet.
HB: [cough] Excuse me.
JDB: He was George’s buddy.
HB: So what would he just have been?
JDB: He was another pilot.
HB: Yeah. Just for the hell of it or -
JDB: I don’t know why.
HB: Would he be observing?
JDB: I can’t remember why they were both together. I’m sure.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: I don’t even know what we were doing. I can’t remember that.
HB: Right. And then the following, the following day you go to Dortmund and again one of those, “Aircraft damaged by flak again.”
JDB: Oh that was a gaggle flying day.
HB: A gaggle flying day [laughs]. Go on then. You’re all flying in a V formation? No?
JDB: Well, we went in to briefing. I remember this one, we went to briefing and the CO stands up there and says, ‘Right gentlemen today you will be gaggle flying as an experiment.’ We said, ‘Yes. Alright. What’s gaggle flying then?’ He said, ‘Well what you do you all take off as normal then we want one of the squadron aircraft to formate on another one of the squadron aircraft. Say you got two and all form up in twos like that and then all the twos, when you’re all ready, sort of close in together carefully and that’s called gaggle flying and the reason you’re doing that is because we’re having a bit of a charmed life at the moment but we’re going to get bounced if we’re not careful.’
HB: Right.
JDB: So we’ve got to be, we’re practicing some defensive formations.
HB: Ah right.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Right. That, that makes, that makes sense a bit now.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So this was a way of bringing you together.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: To increase your fire.
JDB: That’s it.
HB: Your fire power as a defensive thing.
JDB: Yeah. And it was a bloody disaster I might say.
HB: Was it?
JDB: Yeah. It was on that day.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Because, if I remember, was the, was the target Dortmund?
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Well we got into this gaggle flying thing and we had the lead aircraft had got three, I think, flight commanders probably but they painted the tail fins all bright yellow on the three leaders and they formed up into a Vic.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: To lead the formation. Everybody then packed in behind them you see.
HB: Oh blimey.
JDB: That was the theory.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: So we start off and it was daylight of course. We went over the Rhine and, no we didn’t, before we got to the Rhine we detected that we were I think it was three minutes early, going to be three minutes early on target so the lead navigator ‘cause being in this bloody gaggle we had to follow the leaders you see and the, the leader decided that to lose the three minutes we were going to do a dog leg. A three minute dog leg. You do, if you’re flying there you do a forty five degrees three minutes, forty five degrees back and join up where you were and then you’ve lost two minutes or three minutes whatever it was.
HB: Right.
JDB: So, so we’re doing this dog leg and where does the apex of the dog leg take us do you think?
HB: Oh no.
JDB: Straight over Dusseldorf.
HB: Oh my.
JDB: Bang. Bang. Bang. You know.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And there were bloody aircraft going everywhere you know. I saw, I saw a Lanc go across and take a tail off another one.
HB: Oh no.
JDB: Oh yeah. It was, it was dreadful. You wouldn’t do gaggle flying at night anyway you see would you?
HB: No. Well, it sounds dangerous enough in the daytime.
JDB: So I don’t know whether they did any more gaggle flying. I didn’t.
HB: Yeah. So was that, was that, so that would be your squadron plus -?
JDB: It was probably the whole of 1 Group I should think. At least.
HB: Right.
JDB: I could find out. It’s in the diaries.
HB: Oh no. No. Worry not. Worry not. Yeah. Yeah. Oh right ‘cause -
JDB: While I think about it.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Can I just tell you Harry?
HB: Yeah.
JDB: The “Bomber Command Diaries” which I’ve got.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I’ve told you about.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: It was out of print when we looked. Now the other week Sue and I went to East Kirkby.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Right.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And they’ve got a good bookshop in there.
HB: Yes they have.
JDB: As you know I’m sure.
HB: Yes they have. Yes.
JDB: And blow me what did they have there a soft back “Bomber Command Diaries” so it’s in print again.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But in soft back.
HB: Yeah. Like we, like we were saying earlier on what I’ll do, what I’ll do is I’ll check with Dr Dan Ellin who runs the oral history.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And the digital project. I’ll check with his office and with Peter Jones who you spoke to on the phone.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: But I’m fairly confident that that’s been mentioned before.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So I’m fairly confident they’ll have a copy.
JDB: Sure to have been –
HB: Yeah but if they haven’t then obviously -
JDB: Yeah but they’ve got, they’ve got it in soft back at East Kirkby.
HB: And that’s, yeah, oh right well I’ll point him at that if we’re missing one of them
JDB: Yeah. Anyway -
HB: Yeah ‘cause we’re leading up here we’ve come to December ‘44 and we’re leading up to this business at St Vith.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: For the Battle of the Bulge. I mean, I’m looking at this and you’ve gone what one two three four, you’ve gone four night ops, not too many days apart and I think your last, your last one in your book, in your logbook on that one is -
JDB: [Sights?]
HB: C mining off Kattegat. That was a night flight.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: But you got diverted to Lossiemouth.
JDB: Wait a minute. Oh no that was the, that was the Oslo Fjord one when we got diverted Lossiemouth.
HB: Right.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Right. ‘Cause that again, I mean that’s damn near six hours.
JDB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: That one and then you had, you had one that you had because you had to fly out of Lossiemouth base obviously.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: But then you had one which was abortive on the 21st of December. You only got an hour in the air on that one.
JDB: Oh that was, that was sea mining.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Yeah it was, the H2S was U/S.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: So we couldn’t do it.
HB: I mean just, the H2S is the, in the aircraft what purpose does the H2S have?
JDB: Well it’s ground mapping radar.
HB: Right. Right.
JDB: It was essential for sea mining because we used to use a identifiable spot on the coast or whatever which was a good return on H2S on screen. You get a good return and you can identify and that’s a datum to start from where to drop your mines.
HB: Right.
JDB: Normally. As it happens that one on Oslo Fjord it was a visual because it was in a channel. An island in the mainland that we were mining. We did it visually.
HB: Right. And then on the 26th we’ve got the Battle of the Bulge going on.
JDB: Yeah St Vith.
HB: Yeah and that’s four hours ten minutes.
JDB: Yeah. Well it was a fairish way you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Nearly in the Ruhr isn’t it? Not far from the Ruhr valley.
HB: And this is, this is the, this is the op we were talking about earlier where you’re at Kirmington.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And just take me through it again because this is, this is intriguing to me. You’re actually still lining up and the airfield is covered in fog.
JDB: Yeah. The whole of Lincolnshire was under a blanket of sea fog which had rolled in and it was there for a day or two.
HB: Right.
JDB: And you know we got up on, got out of bed early, very early, like 3 o’clock on Boxing Day being, still being under the influence a bit and I remember George -
HB: You’d had a good Christmas, you’d had a good Christmas.
JDB: Climbing up the ladder to get in to the aircraft. It wasn’t our aircraft actually. It was Alan Yates’ aircraft. Ours, ours was already got some mines loaded on it and once they were loaded on to an aircraft they were not taken off.
HB: Right.
JDB: Until they were dropped. So old George climbed up the ladder to get in and it slipped and he fell and it sobered him up.
HB: So you’d all been on the beer the night before then.
JDB: Well it was Christmas Day.
HB: For Christmas. Yeah.
JDB: We’d got a truce supposedly.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: And then there we were hurtling over frozen France.
HB: So, so you go out first thing in the morning, get the aircraft ready.
JDB: No. Well, it was ready. No -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: We went straight to briefing.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: When you got up, you get a bloke come in, at that time in the morning a corporal come around the hut saying, ‘Wakey wakey get your feet on the deck,’ you know.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Briefing at so and so. And everybody did, you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Went and sat in the aeroplane and waited to hear some verey cartridges go off which were white ones. Scrub.
HB: What, what could you on that one, the first one on that day then what could you see from the aircraft?
JDB: Nothing.
HB: Absolutely nothing.
JDB: No, could just, you couldn’t see anything. It was absolutely dense and, but it was only about two hundred feet off the deck you see.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: It was like a blanket had been rolled down.
HB: Yeah. So that one got knocked on the head. That was -
JDB: Well it just scrubbed.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And you go back to the buses would take you back to the, we went back to the mess, I think, not even to the briefing room.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And then they’d say briefing again, re-briefing or, I can’t remember we had a re-brief or we went straight to the aircraft.
HB: Yeah and the second time obviously the aircraft is still bombed up and ready.
JDB: Yeah. All ready to go.
HB: And was that AS B Baker?
JDB: Well it wasn’t our aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: It was Alan Yates.
HB: Yeah sorry it’s in your book here AS B Baker. Yeah.
JDB: Baker. We considered to be ours was AS Charlie.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed there’s a lot of AS Charlie in there.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Definitely. Yeah. So, so you’ve gone back to the aircraft and it, and it’s still covered in fog.
JDB: Yeah and we sit there and think are we going to get another scrub? We did have another scrub. We had two scrubs as I remember and then eventually we got there. Eventually we were waiting for the scrub and it came time to start engines and this time there was no scrub so we started the engines and then we see a marshaller with two bloody lamps doing this in front of him, ‘follow me,’ sort of thing
HB: So he was circling his lamps telling you to get in behind.
JDB: Yeah. Telling us to get going and we followed him to the end of the runway.
HB: Oh blimey.
JDB: And set the gyro up to the heading and let it go.
HB: So you’re actually taking off on a compass bearing as opposed to -
JDB: Yeah. That’s right. Absolutely.
HB: Visual.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Blimey. I bet that was a bit -
JDB: Yeah. It all worked alright as it happened. Yeah.
HB: I like that phrase. It all worked alright and there were, there were, I mean obviously no problems for yourself but I presume everybody else got off as well did they?
JDB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HB: And you say it was only up to about two hundred feet.
JDB: Yeah. You know. Sort of, we got off the deck and started climbing out and we were still on full boost and we were out in clear sky.
HB: Oh lovely.
JDB: Absolutely clear. Wonderful.
HB: So when you looked down all you can see is –
JDB: A blanket of fog.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And then, and then obviously the op starts. You’re off to St Vith.
JDB: Went down over the south coast somewhere. I think we crossed over the coast somewhere round about Brighton I should say.
HB: Yeah. And then what would you do? You’d sort of turn up a bit wouldn’t you?
JDB: Yeah. Yeah we did, we sort of -
HB: Go up to it.
JDB: Yeah. Went across the channel and then sort of turned left and headed towards Belgium I suppose.
HB: Yeah, because you had quite a, quite a good old bomb load on there.
JDB: Yeah. Well it was a short range, you see you used to measure it. If, if we went to the aircraft and we said, we would say to the armourers or the ground crew, say ‘How much petrol have we got on boys?’ They’d say, ‘You’ve got a full load skip.’ And say, oh in that case we’ve not got many bombs and we’re going a long way.
HB: Right.
JDB: If we’d got a full bomb load like seven tons it was a full bomb load and the minimum fuel. You wouldn’t be going very far.
HB: So you, you always had a rough idea.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What you might expect before you even got to the briefing.
JDB: Well if we’d been out to the aircraft.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And checked. Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: In fact the last one, our last raid was to Zeitz, which was right over by Leipzig and you know being your last trip we thought oh bloody hell but then again we were getting well on over that way then.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was going to say because it’s pushed on now I mean, I mean St Vith I’ve given you that photograph of the Lancaster actually -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Involved in bombing St Vith. I mean it looked, it looked fairly clear as a target.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So I’m presuming, it’s like you said, I think you said to me on the phone that it was frosty and bright.
JDB: Oh yes it was.
HB: All the way.
JDB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: All the way but you still managed to get yourself damaged by flak again.
JDB: Well we didn’t. No.
HB: Which is becoming a bit of a habit Derek.
JDB: We didn’t. No. I’ll tell you what there weren’t much flak at all because any flak that was coming up was a bit sporadic and it would be from their, you know their ATH which could be used as ground artillery or anti-aircraft.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: But, no there wasn’t much at all. It was when we got back we were in the circuit at Binbrook and we were going around and I was looking out of the window and it was on the starboard side and I was looking out the window I said.
HB: On the what side?
JDB: Starboard.
HB: On the starboard side.
JDB: Yeah
HB: Right.
JDB: I said, ‘Hey Skip, there’s a bloody hole in the wing.’ So he said, ‘Where?’ I said, ‘Well, between the two engines.’ And he said, ‘How big is it?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. About six inch across I suppose.’ He said, ‘Oh we’ll have a look when we get down.’ So when we landed we parked on the bloody grass somewhere. They had Lancasters parked everywhere at Binbrook.
HB: And that was because -?
JDB: It was the fog still.
HB: This is the business where Binbrook was sticking up out of the fog.
JDB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
HB: The only one you could get in.
JDB: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: So we got out and had a look at this bloody hole in the wing and it was a nice neat hole on top and underneath it was a jagged metal hanging down so obviously a shell had gone up and come down and gone through the wing coming down.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: And it didn’t explode.
HB: Oh that was lucky.
JDB: So we were dead lucky again.
HB: So how far away would that hole be from the fuel tanks then?
JDB: Right between them. It might have been clip on.
HB: Blimey. That’s another -
JDB: I’ve got a model of a Lanc somewhere with the fuel tanks in.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: So –
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I could show you a bit.
HB: Yeah I mean it’s, I mean that’s that’s another one like the other one goes off right next to the bomb bay and that one goes through right through.
JDB: Right.
HB: Right through the fuel tank. Do you want to grab your tea Derek because it will be getting cold?
JDB: Oh yeah. That’s alright. I let it get cold.
HB: Can you reach it? Do you want me to grab it?
JDB: No. It’s alright I can reach it.
HB: Right.
JDB: No problem.
HB: Yeah. ‘Cause that, I mean as I say the bits and bobs I’ve read about the St Vith raid was it, was it was, it was very accurate and it -
JDB: Well it should have been. It was in broad daylight.
HB: [It didn’t stop?]
JDB: At about I think we bombed from about ten thousand feet which was only about half our normal operational bombing height.
HB: Yeah. That’s, yeah that’s, that’s pretty, pretty tight there. And then we’re in to 1945.
JDB: I’ve got some battle orders. I don’t think I’ve got one for that. It tells you. Have you got any battle orders?
HB: I’ve seen them. I’ve seen them and they’ve got, they’ve got quite a few but I mean that’s that’s something, you know like I said we’ll come on to after we’ve -
JDB: Oh some people have got a load of them.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. When we’ve had a bit of a chat I’ll explain to you in more detail what we do about copying stuff and that.
JDB: Fair enough.
HB: But yeah I mean I mean we get to January and it says here this is to certify that Flight Sergeant Bailey JD has completed his first tour of operations.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: At 103 squadron Elsham Wolds and 166 squadron at Kirmington.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Blimey. So that’s what 44.35 hours with 103 and 130 hours 10 minutes with 166. One hundred and seventy four hours.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Which is a fair old time in the air that, Derek.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What of that, of that as you obviously, you know you’ve come to the end of your tour. What, what was you feeling at that time about how Bomber Command were doing or how things were going?
JDB: Well I don’t know. I didn’t have any particularly hard feelings as far as I recall. I went home on leave and I had my twenty first birthday.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: No. I’ll rephrase that. I went home on leave, indefinite leave pending a posting.
HB: Right.
JDB: Somewhere else and eventually I got a gram, report 90, I think 90 OTU isn’t it at Lossiemouth?
HB: 20.
JDB: 20 OTU.
HB: Yeah two zero OTU.
JDB: Yeah, that’s it.
HB: It says Wellington.
JDB: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Report Lossiemouth forthwith and so I spent then my twenty first birthday, all of it, travelling from South Wigston to bloody Lossiemouth.
HB: Oh dear. Well it’s, you know, I mean everybody else has a party. You were on a train. I suppose -
JDB: Well we all did it and I -
HB: Yeah.
JDB: You know, you wonder, well if I’d taken another day nobody would have even known.
HB: No. I was curious Derek because obviously we’ve got to, you know, early 1945.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And D-Day has happened and -
JDB: That’s right while well we -
HB: Heading for the Rhine and everything else. I just wondered how, you’ve done, you’ve done your tour, you know, you, you’ve spent that time in the air, and I was just was wondering how, what your reaction was. Like, you know your tour’s finished and how did you feel in yourself that things were going to go?
JDB: Well a bit of relief I suppose.
HB: Yeah. And what did you think the future held for you at that point? ‘Cause obviously the war’s still going on but -
JDB: Well, well what happened was I went to Lossiemouth as I would say and I was teaching. I was a bombing instructor. I did various courses and all the rest of it and I became commissioned and I was in the bomb plotting office one day and in, one of the flight commanders walked in and said, ‘I’m going back on ops, who’s coming? I want a bomb aimer.’ You know. And I said to him, I stepped forward and joined him and we got a crew together and we went off to Swinderby to join Tiger Force and we were going to Okinawa. That was what I thought at the time.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And then, I must have been bloody mad.
HB: Well I was just going to ask you the question Derek. You know when this, this sorry I’ve forgotten, I’ve forgotten the name your said that came in and said, ‘I need a bomb aimer.’
JDB: Oh you won’t know that. It was one of the flight commanders.
HB: Oh right. So, so nobody actually sort of -
JDB: Well he’s in there actually, as a pilot then when I was at Swinderby.
HB: Right. We’ve got Yates, Lomas, Kennedy, Richards. Oh no. That’s, you’re still instructing there I think.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: I think you’re still instructing there, Derek. Where are we? Hang on. Yeah. Circuits and landings. Ah 1660 Conversion Unit Swinderby.
JDB: That’s it.
HB: Johnson.
JDB: That’s him. Johnson.
HB: Flight lieutenant Johnson. Yeah.
JDB: Johnson.
HB: Because the question I was going to ask Derek was I mean I’ve heard of Tiger Force and I’ve done a little bit of reading about it but this guy comes in and says, ‘I’m looking for a bomb aimer,’ and did you actually, anybody, sort of think to sit people down and say, ‘Look. We’re forming Tiger Force and we’re going to go out to the Far East,’ or was it all just you know well sort of word of mouth. A rumour or something.
JDB: Well I don’t know. I mean it got whispered around I suppose. I mean Tiger Force was basically number 9 squadron.
HB: Right.
JDB: Well, it was, no, start again 5 Group.
HB: Right 5 Group. Yeah.
JDB: 5 Group became Tiger Force and this guy knew. He got to know somehow or other and he decided he wanted to go back on ops.
HB: Right.
JDB: And he was a squadron leader and to go back on ops he had to duck a, duck a rank. He went back to flight lieutenant.
HB: Flight Lieutenant. Oh right so ah that explains it then because it threw me. So he’s, he’s a wing commander.
JDB: No. No.
HB: Sorry a -
JDB: A squadron leader.
HB: A squadron leader but because he wants to carry on operationally.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Right. He then comes down to flight lieutenant -
JDB: Yes.
HB: While you’re at 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby.
JDB: Yes.
HB: Blimey because I mean, I’m looking, just looking in your logbook here so it’s all you know back to the trade.
JDB: That was Flight Lieutenant Johnson.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Oh that that makes sense now. That makes sense now. Lots and lots of cross country training and night, and a lot of night flying there.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: On that one.
JDB: We had to do that conversion because he did his first tour on Halifaxes.
HB: Yeah. Ah right. Yeah. That explains it then.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: That explains it. Yeah. And that takes you up to the 5th of September 1945 and then we’ve got 7th of September 1945 you’re signing, you’re signing that off and that’s your summary for number 1 course.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: I don’t know. It’s quite a lot of, there’s quite a lot of stuff in there Derek. It’s, I mean, we’re, I’m sort of skating over it a bit because I know, you know, you’ve written various things about your time there. I mean one of the things I’m interested in and the archive is interested in is you come, you come to, you come to the end of your time operationally.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You’re sitting at, where were you? I’ve forgotten where you were now? You’re still at Swinderby.
JDB: No. Operationally?
HB: Yeah.
JDB: No. I was at Kirmington.
HB: So you went, so, yeah. You finished at Kirmington on your tour of operations.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: You then go to Swinderby to do the conversion.
JDB: No.
HB: ‘Cause -
JDB: After, after Kirmington I went to Lossiemouth as an instructor.
HB: Ah right. Right. Yes. Sorry. Yes I’ve turned, I’ve turned two pages over in your book, in your logbook Derek. Unforgiveable really. Yes. That explains it and then from Lossiemouth you end up at Swinderby. So you come, you come to the end of that time and the war in Europe’s finished.
JDB: Yeah and the Japanese war.
HB: The Japanese, the Far East has finished. What did you, what was your feeling then? You’ve come to the end of it all. You’ve survived.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: How did you feel about all that?
JDB: Well, I wanted, at that point I wanted to stay in the Royal Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
IJDB: I didn’t want to come back to Civvy Street and I applied for a extended service commission.
HB: Yeah. Sorry -
JDB: So -
HB: That’s me knocking the table. Sorry mate.
JDB: It’s alright.
HB: Yeah, you, so you applied for -
JDB: An extended service commission.
HB: Right.
JDB: I was, at the time, when I, when I got to this I was, I became an equipment officer, made redundant aircrew and became an equipment officer. So I applied for an extended service commission and I couldn’t get an answer from air ministry despite being at a command headquarters and having access to the [peace tap?] that I still couldn’t get an answer so I had to make up my mind if I was going back to civvy street or not at that point and I was under threat from my employer who would have been, or my potential employer again, about, you know, saying, ‘You either come now, don’t you dare sign on for any longer. Either you come back now or there will be no job.’
HB: Right.
JDB: So I had to make my mind up and in the end I opted to come out. Yeah.
HB: So that would have been mixed feelings really then wouldn’t it?
JDB: I was, like so many other people Harry, I was confused.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I must say. I was confused.
HB: You know from other people I’ve spoken to it was the majority of people found it a difficult time. I mean in the wider context, I mean you’ve taken part with Bomber Command in, you know, a major part of the European war, and the theatre of war so what was, what were your feelings, what were your feelings about your part in all that?
JDB: I don’t know. I didn’t really consider it.
HB: Right.
JDB: I didn’t feel, are you talking about the guilt?
HB: What, however you felt about it.
JDB: No.
HB: You know, I’ve heard so many different -
JDB: No. I never felt any guilt whatsoever.
HB: Right.
JDB: Because I thought we were doing what was demanded of us to do and what we needed to be done.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And no more than that.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: But I know that some people did have reservations and, I don’t know. It’s a very very difficult question that, Harry.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: It really is.
HB: What, what did you think about any sort of support or the government’s view, after, afterwards?
JDB: Hereafter. Well there was a bit of cheating went on wasn’t there? I mean you’ve not mentioned the dreaded word have you?
HB: No. Go on. You carry on Derek.
JDB: And the dreaded word is, clever of me isn’t it? I can’t even remember the dreaded bloody word. What raised all the Cain about bombing? Where was it? In Eastern Germany.
HB: The target.
JDB: Yeah. The target. Yeah.
HB: Dresden.
JDB: Dresden. Thank you. That’s what caused all the trouble at the end was Dresden. I never bombed Dresden. I finished long before that. But if I’d been given orders to bomb Dresden I would have bloody bombed Dresden. End of story.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: To be honest I didn’t know enough about Dresden at the time.
HB: No.
JDB: I didn’t know enough, much about a lot of the places that I –
HB: No.
JDB: Plastered. But I mean the talk about Dresden and all the rest of it you could equally pick on places like Freiburg, or Freiburg which is in my book.
HB: Yes.
JDB: There was, the casualties in Freiburg were nearly as horrendous as, as Dresden and that was not for the type of place it was but they got it wrong. Somebody got it very very wrong on an intelligence basis because Freiburg was meant to be packed full of troops defending the Rhine.
HB: Right.
JDB: At it’s southern end.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And it proved not to be the case but it was very lightly defended. It was, it was, as far as Bomber Command was concerned it was an easy target really.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And I do think that some people, including me had certain misgivings about that when we knew but we didn’t know at the time. We didn’t know. It was just another target but it was afterwards when they released information that you thought well that really, really wasn’t quite right you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: But what can you do? You can’t put the clock back.
HB: No. That’s, that’s true. That’s true.
JDB: And whether any other places came up like that I really don’t know.
HB: No. I mean it obviously you’ve come to the end of your RAF and you’ve made that difficult decision to -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: To pick up your civilian life again.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: So, what, you come back to Leicestershire to start working for, was it Edling?
JDB: Edling
HB: Yeah
JDB: And then we had nationalisation of the transport industry if you recall.
HB: No. I’m still a bit slightly a bit young for that Derek.
JDB: Yes.
HB: But yes I have read about it.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: And so -
HB: So by now you’re twenty, twenty two.
JDB: What? When I came out?
HB: No. Yeah twenty, just trying to work it out. Twenty -
JDB: I was twenty three.
HB: You were, yeah twenty three.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Sorry. So you’re twenty three. Footloose and fancy free. You’ve got your demob suit and your RAF half a wing.
JDB: [laughs] Yeah.
HB: And what’s, what’s Bill Bailey doing, doing now? What’s he, what were you -
JDB: What? Now, Bill
HB: What were you looking forward to then? You’ve picked up your civilian life again.
JDB: Well I was working in the transport industry. I moved on to another company. I spent forty years with Star Roadways. Over forty years actually and that’s it. What one might call a normal life I suppose.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I spent twenty years in the Air Training Corps.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: After I’d, after a spell. I retired when I was fifty six so, and I did twenty years so I must have been thirty six when I got talked into doing the Air Training Corps.
HB: Because you, ‘cause you got, you got a rank through the Air Training Corps didn’t you?
JDB: Oh yeah. I retired as squadron leader.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I got a letter from the air ministry. Well it’s not the air ministry is it? But thanking me for my service.
HB: Just, just stepping back now into the war just two quick sort of questions for, just for you to have a think about. Tell me. What was, what was the silliest daftest thing you can remember?
JDB: The daftest?
HB: Yeah. In your, in your service, in your operations.
JDB: That I did.
HB: Well whoever, whatever.
JDB: Oh.
HB: As long as it’s clean mind.
JDB: I think, I think [laughs] I require notice of that one.
HB: Well that’s why I don’t tell people.
[pause]
JDB: Oh dear. I don’t know. The daftest thing. There must have been some.
HB: Yeah. Did you, did you all go out as a crew to the pub when you were on stand down?
JDB: Well, we did in, especially up at Kirmington yeah.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Because there was nowhere else to go other than the pub in the village.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Which was called the Marrowbone and Cleaver. Commonly known as The Chopper. And -
HB: How did you get down there? Bike. Bus.
JDB: Well no it was only -
HB: Anything with wheels.
JDB: [a bit?] away from where we, where the huts were. We were in Brocklesby Wood in nissen huts. It was a, what did I, I don’t know.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: I can’t think off-hand of any particularly wild thing.
HB: We’ll perhaps, we’ll perhaps leave that one and -
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Let you come back to that.
JDB: Except when I gave a girl a lift from Barnetby station back to camp on the cross bar of my bloody bike. I got talking to her on the train coming from Lincoln.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And apparently she was going to Kirmington.
HB: Was she a WAAF then or –
JDB: Yeah she was a WAAF.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: She became a good friend and I mean that. Only.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Only that. Wouldn’t have anything else I think.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: The WAAFs were very cagey actually you know.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And rightly so.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And I think it was that you put yourself in the position of a WAAF if you started getting to a very serious situation she’d probably think well Christ I might get pregnant and he might get killed next week.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: You know.
HB: Yeah. What was, when you, I mean you moved off Wellingtons and you moved on to lancs?
JDB: Yeah.
HB: What was your relationship with your ground crew like?
JDB: Very very good.
HB: Did you always have the same ground crew?
JDB: Well, when we were at Peplow on Wellingtons no I don’t think we got to know the ground crew hardly at all. Really.
HB: Right. Right.
JDB: On the squadron it was different.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: You were more a team there, there and one of our ground crew was on leave when we did our last operation but he came, he came back from leave to meet us, to see us when we arrived back from our last trip -
HB: Wow.
JDB: That’s the sort of guys they were and funnily enough, where was it I got posted to? Bloody hell.
HB: Was that - ?
JDB: Oh I know. When we got posted to Lossiemouth. That’s right. I and my skipper both got posted to Lossiemouth. When I went up there to be an instructor George went as well and when I got there after that long trip I went down, down the road in the morning and there was an officer coming towards me so I slung one up as you do and then I realised it was my skipper. Yeah.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: And then I met a bloke, a bloke did the opposite to me later on and, an airman, and he turned out to be our bloody engine mechanic.
HB: Oh right he’s air mech.
JDB: And I couldn’t believe it. Ginge we called him.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And he turned out he’d been posted somewhere and he was the bloody camp postman. He’d been made redundant.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: Wow yeah.
JDB: I can’t remember where that happened now.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: Oh dear.
HB: Did you, did you manage to keep in touch with your crew after the war?
JDB: Now, that is a very very, what’s the word I want? I don’t know? A funny question because we didn’t.
HB: Right.
JDB: For a, for a long time, no. George, George the skipper he died quite young. He got a DFC by the way, he did.
HB: Did he? Right. Yeah.
JDB: When he’d finished a tour of ops a captain gets a DFC.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And apparently, I didn’t meet him but George died quite young. He was a rugby player rugby league. Played at Wakefield. And he died. I kept in touch with my navigator for quite a number of years. He, ‘cause he emigrated to Canada and he worked in a hospital in Ottawa.
HB: Oh right.
JDB: And I did meet up with him. He used to come over to the UK every year and I did used to meet with him and we used to have squadron reunions up at Hull and I met up with. I’ve got some photographs actually.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: About, how many of us were there? There was myself, Wally, Wally Williams we located and he was my, the flight engineer. He had a bloody hip replacement operation and it killed him.
HB: Oh dear.
JDB: Ron died a few years ago in Ottawa. The mystery is I’ve never, I’ve not been able to find any trace by any means of the gunners. The two gunners. And quite recently I’ve come to a conclusion that it’s possible because during our tour they, I know that Paddy missed a couple of flights with us and we had to take a spare bod and I think it might have applied to both of them. Now if it did when we finished our tour of operations they would have to stay there on the squadron and finish their thirty operations.
HB: Oh right. Yes.
JDB: Spare bodding with somebody else.
HB: Yeah.
JDB: And it may be that they did that and were lost.
HB: Right.
JDB: I don’t, I really don’t know and it’s, I’ve tried all manner of ways of trying to find them and I can’t.
HB: You know, I mean there are one or two bits and bobs now on the internet. We can, we can perhaps have a little look into but well that’s, I thank you for that Derek. Yeah.
JDB: Oh and you know and otherwise, oh Wally Williams we found late on and then he had this hip replacement and died and then his wife lived in Chichester and I’ve not heard from them for a few years so I think she must have passed away as well.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JDB: Who else was there?
HB: You got -
JDB: Oh Gus I think is still alive. Up in Ripon I think.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s the one you just sent the card to.
JDB: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: What was his name? Wilf?
JDB: Leigh. Wilf Leigh.
HB: Wilf Leigh. Yeah.
JDB: L E I G H.
HB: Right. Wow. That’s made. What, what I want to do Derek is I’m going to finish the actual interview now.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: But obviously there’s some other bits and bobs and I’d like if possible to come back.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: In the future to speak to you again.
JDB: Yeah.
HB: And we’ll record that and we’re just going to have a look through your bag of goodies today. So it’s now twenty to five. It’s, we’re fortunately we’re still on the 7th of December 2016. We haven’t gone around the clock so I’m just going to terminate the interview at this, at this time and then there will obviously be a phase two.
JDB: Yeah. Ok
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Derek "Bill" Bailey. One
Creator
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Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-12-07
Format
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01:57:37 audio recording
Identifier
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ABaileyJD161207
PBaileyJD1607
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
John Derek ‘Bill’ Bailey volunteered for the Air Force when he was 18 and trained as a bomb aimer in Canada. When he arrived he caught scarlet fever and spent five weeks in an isolation hospital. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 103 and 166 Squadrons from RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
103 Squadron
166 Squadron
83 OTU
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
Bolingbroke
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing and Gunnery School
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
crewing up
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lysander
Master Bomber
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Swinderby
RAF Torquay
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/509/8411/ADobleRG151117.1.mp3
445d6be24eaf87a7eca4d9a422544675
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Doble, Ronald George
R G Doble
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Doble, RG
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. An oral history interview with Ronald George Doble (3030256 Royal Air Force) his log book, service documents and photographs. George Doble served as a wireless operator / air gunner with 97 Squadron
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Andrew St.Denis
Sergeant Ronald Doble – 3030256. Was born in London and initially served in the Air Training Corp, No,336 Squadron before joining the RAF aged 18, towards the end of WWII. Starting training for Radio Operator and Air Gunner, but switching to focus on Gunnery, this was on Wellington’s at Morton-in-Marsh. Completing training at No.1660 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Swinderby and then No.1653 HCU at RAF Lindholme, both in Lancaster’s the war in Europe had finished. Joining No.97 Squadron at RAF Hemswell, flying in Lincoln’s he flew as a rear gunner and took part in equipment tests such as Rebecca/Eureka, Radio Navigation equipment. After leaving the RAF Ronald entered an apprenticeship as a panel neater, building body’s for Talbots and Sunbeams at Rootes Group.
Factual ‘CV’
20 August 1945 – 9 November 1945: No 2 Air Gunnery School at RAF Dalcross – Aircraft: Wellington.
10 November 1945 - 1 November 1946: 21 Operational Training Unit at Moreton-in-Marsh – Aircraft: Unknown.
1 November 1946 – 9 November 1946: 1660 HCU at RAF Swinderby – Aircraft: Lancaster.
10 November 1946 – 26 March 1947: 1653 HCU at RAF Lindholme – Aircraft: Lancaster.
27 March 1947 – 1 July 1947: 97 Squadron at RAF Hemswell, Lincolnshire – Aircraft: Lincoln.
Biography
Born in Hammersmith, London to a working-class family, Ronald George Doble recounts his service in the RAF before leaving in 1947. Doble left school, aged thirteen, to work behind a guillotine cutting metal. Upon witnessing the bombing of London during the Second World War, Doble joined the fire watchers, tasked with dealing with the fallout of oil bombs before making the choice to join the RAF, beginning at the Air Training corps. Soon after he was sent to Grove court air crew receiving centre. Here he recalls a memory of a group of him and his new friends playing around with a mess tin which flew through the window and fall onto a flight sergeant with fifty men on parade. Doble was then sent to Yatesbury, where he was picked up as a wireless operator air gunner, undergoing a nine-month course.
Finding that there was no longer any use for his position, Doble went to Clapham, London where he took an educational course in preparation for taking the aptitude test at RAF Regiment Locking. Upon passing the test, he was posted to the Initial Training Wing at Bridgenorth. Once completing training at Bridgenorth, Doble was moved to Dalcross Air Gunnery school before proceeding to move to Moreton-in-Marsh, 21 operational training unit, then to the 1965 HCU and then finally ending up in Hemswell in Lincolnshire. However, when he and other gunners began to be de-ranked, they made the decision to leave the RAF and chose to continue an apprenticeship in Filey, making Sunbeams, Talbots, and Humbers Bodies. Within this job, Doble would get lead poisoning before being left without a job and finishing his career as a panel beater on car repairs in Haddenham.
This collection including an oral interview, with reference to stories ranging from attempting to carry a piano out of a building during a bomb attack and getting stuck and running out of oxygen whilst attempting to do a drogue firing. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/8411 There are also multiple photographs detailing the different services he was part of and the men he served with, as well as some of the aircrafts he flew. One such photograph shows Doble as well as other RAF airmen being introduced to King George VI and his family with an ‘x’ added by a fellow airman to show Doble amongst the men. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17743 The collection includes an article about a Bomb Aimer and Navigator who refused to fly, destroying their maps in the process. Despite being allowed to fly after this event, they did so again and was ultimately charged with Lack of Moral Fibre. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17746 Finally, Doble’s log and service and release book shows his service across his entire career as well as the aircrafts he flew in each place, something which he explores within his oral interview. Upon his release, Doble was described as an ‘extremely capable and efficient worker… of a very pleasant and cheerful nature’, and once again his interview serves to reflect the type of man he was and still is. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17747
Amy Johnson
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: So this is the introduction to the interview that I’m having with Mr Ron Doble. My name’s Chris Brockbank and we’re at [omitted] Haddenham, and we’re going to be talking about his experiences, er, in training and, er, in life in general with the RAF and what he did afterwards and he was with 97 Squadron. So Ron, would you mind starting please with what your earliest recollections were, your family and how you came to join the RAF?
RD: Well I was born, er, in London, in Hammersmith, um, from a very working class people, my family, er, my father was a driver on the Great Western Railway and my mother was an ex— believe it or not, nun, who was kept by the nuns and ill-treated etcetera, which is something, but there you go, um, and she left or got out of it and met my father and they both got married. Then I was born and that was it. I lived in Richard’s Street, which was, um, very near the Gaumont British Studios where the film stars used to come and I used to look down there and see some of them getting out of their cars, very interesting actually. From there I, I left school, at, er, just nearly fourteen and the war had just started. I didn’t do a great deal regarding that but I joined the ATC, Air Training Corps, 336 Squadron it was, and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there [cough] beg your pardon and, um, during this time of course the war had just more or less started and, er, all we could think about was, or all I [emphasis] could think about, was to get into the RAF and do flying and be a great heroic person [laugh] and shoot down thousands of aircraft and how wonderful it would be, not realising really it would have been a nightmare in some cases, maybe not for the likes of me myself personally but for the likes of people that I know, have known and known very well, great friends. I then went to — oh dear, where did I join up in London?
CB: At Lords.
RD: Yeah. Went to Lords, had a bit of breakfast, got kitted out with the stuff and then sent from there to Grove Court [background noise] to Grove Court which was, er, Air Crew Receiving Centre and while we were there we were put to really rigorous, um, oh dear, discipline [emphasis] but being all youngsters, of course, you always had a bit of fun altogether, sort of thing, and one thing or another, and it was a great laugh in a way. In other ways it wasn’t but there you go. So what happened, one of the things that happened there, we were put into rooms next to each other, this lot in this room and us lot in this room, and we thought we would go and have a little mess around with the other lot, not anything violent or anything like that, just a laugh. So away we went and, er, somebody joined this mix-up, er, picked up a biscuit, a set of biscuits, which were three mattresses that were on the bed for you, for your sleeping, and he, he just got into this crowd of guys all messing around but within that was a mess tin and, unfortunately, the mess tin took off and went through a window, and we were all flabbergasted so we all shot to the window and looked out, low and behold, the grass and things had fallen on a, a flight sergeant with, with fifty guys on parade down below. So we thought, ‘Oh my God.’ So we went to our rooms quickly but that wasn’t not quick enough because the next second up come the flight sergeant, Chiefie we used to call him, and, um, we were all put on a charge. So that was a good start [laugh] for the start of our — whatever. Anyway we were marched in front of the, um, guy in charge of the place, group captain, and it was quick march, quick march, left right, left right. Walked in and saluted and he said, ‘Right disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful going on. This is not what we do or should do.’ So he said, ‘Therefore I’m giving you five days confined to barracks and each one of you will pay threepence halfpenny for all the damage that you’ve caused.’ So we thought, ‘Right.’ Left, right, left right and out we went, and that was the end of that. The confined to barracks was nothing really, let’s face it, because we weren’t allowed out or went on relief from there for the period of time we were there which was, er, about six weeks. [cough] What happened then was we were sent to — that’s right, Yatesbury. I was because I was picked as a wireless operator air gunner. This was a nine month course, um, which was to take me nearly to the end of the war. But anyway, what happened then was we all, well not all of us, part of us went off to Yatesbury. We did a radio course and learnt the Morse code and things and then we were suddenly told that they didn’t want radio wireless operators anymore. So that curtailed my training there and we were sent back, typical business, but sent back to Scarborough which was another receiving centre for aircrew. And while we were there the powers that be thought, ‘Right we’ll give them something to do.’ So they put us on a so-called aptitude test and this aptitude test was to determine whether you were fit and able to be aircrew or other things, OK? So away we went. We had to march so far, run so far, swim. Swimming, by the way, um, I should always remember being in the little place where you changed and then waiting to see whether they gave you a slip, and the slip was like a little loin cloth to cover your vital parts up but the flight sergeant came along and said, ‘What the hell are you waiting here for some of you guys.’ And we said, ‘Well, where’s the slip? He said, ‘No bloody slip here.’ He said, ‘You get in that water.’ He said, ‘And the swimmers will help the non-swimmers.’ So we all jumped in and did our bit and then got out [cleared throat]. We had various, various things, mental things as well. One of them that really struck me was the fact that put in front of you was, was a box, in the box was squares of wood, painted on top was half black and half white and you had so many seconds to turn these things round to see how many you could do, and what surprised me quite a bit was that some of the guys turned them round completely so at the end of it there was hardly any score, which was amazing really. Anyway, that went on and then we were told, ‘Right, you’ve done that. You’re going to Locking, RAF Regiment place, Locking.’ We got there and we were kitted out with army stuff and boots and gaiters and given, um, a rifle — and, er, didn’t know what to do with it but, um, anyway while we were there we were put to different things such as crawling through tunnels [background noise] and one thing or another. So we got through that and then posted on the — at Scarborough posted on a notice board would be exactly what you, your aptitude made of what you were capable of. But I must stress that when you joined up you knew what you were going to be, or supposed to be, if you passed the test, but with this thing you went to it and it was just luck of the draw, that’s all I can say. Because some of us got through and much to my amazement, I was really chuffed, I got through as an air gunner, fine, three-month’s course, yeah? So — but some of them didn’t get thorough, didn’t reach these — full [?] marks so they were designated, believe it or not — don’t forget that we were all volunteers — they were designated to be Paratroops, um, down the coal mines or in the Army and then there was a big clear out then. And then we were posted to ITW, Initial Training Wing, at Bridgenorth.
CB: Right, we’ll stop there just for a mo. [interview stopped at 0:13:42:9 and restarted 0:13:45:07]
RD: Before we went to ITW, sorry I’m getting a bit mixed we were sent to [ cough] Clapham, in London, Wandsworth and we were put on an educational course [slight laugh] and we went to the — we were stationed at Victoria Rise, which was a, a block of, um, rooms on the hill, and we were marched from there to the tram and the tram took us down to Wandsworth College and we went in the College and we’d do four or five hours learning different things, which was, which was quite good actually and, of course, big head here put his foot in it again because on, on the desk [cough] beg your pardon, was a, a pressure thing, what do you call it? A U-tube and he was showing us the way you, you varied the pressure. So big head here thought, ‘Oh well, I’ll have a go at that.’ So instead of blowing carefully I went there and went like that and the whole lot of mercury, well part of it, shot out the top of this tube and went all over the place and mercury is like little ball bearings. So we got all the lads to go round and pick up all these little ball bearings and put it back in the tube before the teacher come back. We thought it was funny but I didn’t at the time. Just something, one of the bloody stupid things I normally did. So there we go. So what happened then was we were there and we done that and then we were going on to ITW but, a big but, during this time we were sitting there and all of a sudden this aircraft, er, came over and it was quite low and quite noisy. And we thought, ‘Oh good God, I wonder what that is.’ And the thing cut out and went down and we were on the hill and then we just saw a big bang and, er, that was the V1. So the V1 thing started coming over then. What happened then was the course was abandoned at the college, as normal, and we were given, four of us, each, each of us four, four lads were given a truck with a driver and we were told to go to these bomb sites and help out with rescuing people or helping in general. Well, regarding rescuing people that was ridiculous really. I mean, you’re walking over, er, debris and stuff and, er, I know it sounds awful but it [background noise] probably did more damage than [unclear] anyway we were taking off of that and told us that, um, we’ll be responsible for all valuables and moveable objects in these bombed out buildings, er, and one instance was whilst we went to a four storey building, we looked around for valuables, we took those and I must impress none of these guys, none of us kept one penny of anything that we found but [cough] it was handed over to the van driver so, OK, and he had to report back and hand that in, um, anyway we got to the — one of the points was we got to the top story of this four [cough] four-storey building and there was a grand piano there. So we were told we’d have to move the grand piano and the only way you could move the grand piano was to put it out of the shattered window. There was no frame or anything and lower it down on straps. Well, the guy that was with us was supposed to have been a removal van, man so we put the strap around. It was one strap and a couple of ropes and we, we managed to lift this piano up and put it on the ledge of the window [cough] and then the guy said, ‘Right give it a little push and then we’ll lower it down.’ So we gave it a little push and, low and behold, the piano just disappeared down. The ropes went through our hands, we couldn’t hold it, and it hit the bottom of this place in the area and made a lovely booming sound but that was the end of thing. So really and truly we didn’t achieve a lot there. But we did, we did help, I must admit we did help. So then we were, we were went to ITW at Bridgenorth, Initial training Wing Bridgenorth, and then we did our ITW there and then from there I went on to Dalcross I think, which is now Inverness.
CB: Airport.
RD: Dalcross, um, I forget the name of the — similar[?] something — Air Gunnery School and that was really something, that really was something, but by now of course the war was getting very close to the end. So got in these Wellingtons and, er, it is most odd but I got a picture up there, you can see later, you probably know anyway they were just, er, lattice work and fabric [cough] but very very strong, very reliable, anyway I got in that, my first time in there I was given a suit and, er, all the bits and pieces. And away we went and we had to do drogue firing, and, er, air to sea firing and also, er, camera work with Spitfires and Hurricanes, um, that’s right, yep. Spitfires and Hurricanes, um, that’s right, yep. Well, this course was to me the, the height of what I had to achieve because I didn’t want to fail this. This is what from a little lad in the ATC up till then I had to get in that Lanc or whatever and do, um, some work. So anyway the end of that came and I did very well, um, and they made a new idea of, of drogue firing which was called a quarter cross under. And, amazingly enough, I got a hundred and sixteen hits out of six hundred rounds and another one I got what? Thirty-two hits I think. It’s in the logbook. And when I got — passed all the tests and I did very well actually and, er, the guy handing out the wings congratulated me on my scoring, sort of thing, so I was quite chuffed about that. From there we went to Moreton-in-Marsh which was 21 Operational Training Unit and again on Wellingtons but these were really doing the job, flying around and God knows what. So I’d only done about twenty odd hours at Dalcross and nothing high altitude so when I got there I was put amongst a pool of half a dozen guys and there was a chap there called Squadron Leader Corbesley [?] and, and his crew [cough] and they were well into their course but their gunner was sick with appendicitis so, low and behold, out come the boss of the gunnery section and said, ‘Right Doble, you done well on the final test you can do well on this I’m sure.’ So he put me in the crew with Pete Corbesley, um, oh I forget their names now, bless them. The bomb aimer Ted Heywood [?]— anyway, so away we went. Now this flight was a high altitude bombing flight and also a night-time drogue firing. Right, so I’ve got all the kit on and everything and I’d never done this before. It was a four hour or five hour trip [cough] oxygen and all the rest of it. So in the turret I got, which was good. I managed to get in that. That was OK, lovely, and away we went on our, on our, on our, um, job. We did the bombing and all the rest of it and then I had to do the drogue firing. Now, nobody had told me much about what to do because I’d missed that part of the course or I’d been shoved in halfway through. What I had to do was to get out the turret, put the little emergency bottle on, put the drogue down the flare chute and let it out on a winch, and then get back in and look for the drogue, which was — had a little light inside, fire at it when I’m finished, come back, wheel it in and do it. Right, I went out, I got in the turret, looked and I thought, ‘That’s funny, where’s the drogue?’ And then I saw this thing doing a complete circle behind the aircraft [slight laugh] and the drogue had gone out there and hadn’t streamed so it was just like a parcel. And when I looked and this thing’s whirling round I thought, ‘My God.’ All I could think was whether it would cut the tail off. Obviously it couldn’t but I thought, ‘Oh gee whiz,’ so and the skipper said, ‘You OK gunner?’ I said, ‘Yeah I’m just starting now.’ So I fired a few rounds and all the rest of it and then I quickly got out, put the bottle on and had to wind this thing back. So I wound it back and then I had a nice silk scarf and that got tangled up winding in the wings. So I had to wind it back a bit and get the scarf out and fiddling about and then suddenly I felt a bit woozy but anyway I managed to get the drogue in, undid it and — yeah and then I thought, ‘Right I’ll get back in now.’ But I felt a bit odd. So as I tried to move I couldn’t really move properly and I looked down and this little bottle I think had, I think they had about fifteen minutes, I’m not sure but I think they had, um, and it had run out. So there so there I was stuck halfway down at the end of this dark tunnel, um, gasping for breath and there are things on the side where you can get it in but you can’t really see them. And lucky enough [clears throat] the navigator pulled his curtain back and had a look and I said, er, you know, ‘Can you help me, you know?’ Sort of thing. So he come down and looked and said, ‘Oh yeah,’ and plugged it in and said then I was OK. I got back in the turret and away we went. We did the job and got back and I thought, ‘My goodness me. That was the [clock chimes] first long range high altitude trip and it was a nightmare.’ [laugh] All because of my own fault possibly but there you go. That went on there and there was another a bit of a thing. The Wellies were getting a bit old by now and, um, one little thing was in the turret I felt a bit of wet and God knows what and when I looked the hydraulic pipe had broken and saturated me with hydraulic oil. So that was one thing and, um, the next thing was, on another trip we did, um, I was in the turret and a big cloud of smoke and stuff come up through the turret and I thought, ‘Oh my God. It’s going to catch alight.’ [clock chimes] So I quickly got out the turret and I said to the skipper, ‘Skipper, it looks as if the turret’s on fire.’ [slight laugh] I mean, I know it sounds funny but it’s not funny, it’s not [slight laugh]. So he said, ‘Well is there any flames? I said, ‘No, no, no there’s no flames.’ So he said, ‘Right, well stand by it and see what happens.’ And then I said, ‘Oh, it’s alright now.’ The smoke had disappeared. So he said, ‘Oh good.’ He said, ‘OK then. Carry on. Get back in your turret.’ Well, I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’m not getting back in there.’ I said, ‘Because if it’s on fire this thing might fall off or something.’ I said, ‘No, I’ve had enough of that’. So he said, ‘Yeah, OK gunner come up front.’ So I went up front and it was a twin flying thing, a Wellington with twin controls, and I sat in there in the — this seat and the skipper was there and [cough] I finished, finished that. He let me fly the thing but I couldn’t ruddy fly it, you know. I sat there and he said, ‘OK, you take over governor and see how you get on.’ So it was night time so I didn’t know what to do. I thought, ‘Well if I hold the stick still then the thing just goes.’ So I held the stick still and then all of a sudden all the dials started going round. Well my little brain said, ‘Oh blow me, I’m over speeding, there’s too much power.’ You know, so I leant forward to get the throttles and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘Well I’m throttling back.’ ‘Don’t do that.’ He said [cough], ‘Look out there.’ He said, ‘And you’ll see the horizon, even though it’s dark.’ He said, ‘Where’s the horizon?’ And of course the horizon was up there [unclear] long way down so he, he sorted that out and we landed and that was the end of that. OK. [background noise]
CB: Yeah, you only had yourself to look after.
RD: Absolutely, you know, it was your responsibility. If something happened well that’s it. It was just bad luck. But getting back to my opinion about it all was the fact that — I know for a fact that lots of these aircraft were, were, um, destroyed. I mean, Nuremburg I think was one and another one, Leipzig, um, where you got ninety-five aircraft knocked down in one night.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Um, that is one of the reasons why we went on all this business to start of my career, if you can call it that. They wanted air gunners. Oh and something I missed out by the way —
CB: That’s OK.
RD: I’m sorry about that.
CB: No don’t worry. We can pick it up. What, what did you miss out?
RD: Well, what happened was, when we were at St Johns Wood, at the ACRC, um, they called for volunteers but air gunners. Now we were all different grades. Well, obviously I went down ‘cause I wanted to be an air gunner and so, being stupid, [noise] it’s only a three month course or something like that and I’ll be on operations, um, so we all queued up and along came the groupie [?] and he talked to some and talked to some and he come to me and he said, ‘How old are you son?’ I said, ‘Eighteen Sir.’ He said, ‘Well bugger off!’ And, er, I went with a few of the others, you know. So he was quite human, put it that way. I mean I was only a kid wasn’t I? Let’s face it. We were all kids, high spirited and, er, mind you we learnt quick, well I [emphasis] didn’t. The people that did these ops, hundreds of ops and things, tours, they were incredible people. The other thing that strikes me as well — can I go on? Was the fact that, as you know, if you didn’t do the op — [background noise]
CB: Now here’s your tea Ron —
RD: Yes, thank you very much.
CB: So some of these people —
RD: [noise] Shall I carry on? So, some of these people, as you know, I’ve known an instance of a guy who done thirty ops and he was told he’d got to do an extra five, um, you know, before he was taken out and he said, ‘I’m not doing it.’ He said, ‘ I’ve had enough. I’ve done my bit and that’s it.’ And that’s where this business of LMF comes in and they were sent to Eastchurch, where the LMF place was, and they were demoted, AC2s, and, er, I don’t know, just, used as spare parts I suppose. But it was awful really, absolutely terrible, um, and quite a few, quite a few did that. I don’t know and that’s, that’s what gets me [emphasis]. If I’d done quite a few ops, how would I have felt? I don’t know now. I would love to have known but you don’t know. But there you go. Anyway, where were we? Oh yeah, OTU. So we finished up at OTU. My pilot, by the way, was a squadron leader. He was quite important and he was a Spitfire photo reconnaissance pilot originally and he was on a high flying operation over Italy at the time and he was, er, shot down and he was captured by the Italians and put in a prisoner camp. But the, the Italians surrendered and left the Germans there but when this happened he got away and he was transported back to England, believe it or not, and that’s when he came onto the OTU for multi-engined aircraft to go back, back to that and he was getting on a bit as well, so that’s it. So from there we went to 1653 HCU. I can’t quite remember.
CB: At North Luffenham?
RD: It was Lindholme, Lind— I don’t know. Some of them we were — one of them in there in my book we were sent to the Heavy Conversion Unit there and then moved halfway through to another operational place, airfield.
CB: OK. 1653 was North Luffenham.
RD: Yeah, was it? Oh well, I might have it wrong, I might even have it wrong, it was North Luffenham. But anyway, from there we went to, um, a squadron, that’s it, in Lincolnshire.
CB: Just before we get on to that could you just explain what you please did at the HCU?
RD: Oh, yeah, well what we did at — sorry. Obviously — what happened at the Conversion Unit was, you come from Wellingtons, which were rather a sparse looking aircraft, but ground [?] crew very reliable, to the Lanc which got a bit more room, er, the turrets weren’t much better than the old, er, Wellington, um, and what we did there was, um, touch and go and all the rest of it. And then, um, high flying and bombing etcetera and when we finished that we went on to squadron, I think it was — yeah, the squadron I was at was Hemswell in Lincolnshire. Hemswell, that’s right and when I got there I my pilot [unclear] and the crew but he had a heart problem, poor old boy, and, er, he was demoted from squadron— from wing commander down to squadron leader, sorry, and, er, we never saw him again. So I was left again without a crew. So again I’m the spare Charlie. So we all sat in the gunnery place and then along pops the gunnery leader and said, ‘Right, Doble, you’re flying with so and so. Right, Doble, you’re flying with so and so.’ And I flew away with Squadron Leader Bretherton. I think this is a well-known name, I’m not sure, but he was a nice guy. [clears throat] But all this time, all this time, things are moving regarding the air crew itself. Um, a — and I can understand it really, with the sergeant ground crew were sharing their mess with youngsters, sergeants, um, with nothing like their service or whatever. And it wasn’t, wasn’t a very happy scene at that time and they were obviously looked at, it was looked into and the powers that be said, ‘Well, as from — whatever date it was — you won’t be sergeants any more, you’ll be gunners in grades. There’ll be Gunner 2 and Gunner 1 and Master Gunner and your rank would not be there. It will be there but it will be a crown with, um, G2, G1 or Master, Master Gunner.’ And that was equivalent to sergeant, flight sergeant and warrant officer. The war had ended and I still hadn’t got into it and that was — that did it for me as far as I was concerned [cough]. I was pushed from pillar to post, didn’t do a great deal of flying and I got a bit fed up. So I thought, ‘Right I’m going to leave.’ So I left. We all got together actually and said we were fed up with this business and, I don’t know, about twenty of us decided we’d leave the RAF and — oh sorry, during this time the thing that came out was you could serve three years or five years if you wanted to, early on, and we had all signed up for three years and you were given fifty pounds a year for the three years, for a five — no, for the three years, that’s right. So we signed up, fine. Sorry, this is before things happened, sorry, before the squadron. Sorry about that. So we’d all signed up so what happened when we got to Hemswell, the war had ended, we were messing around and we all decided then — they’d de-ranked us and we were fed up with it. So we thought, ‘Right what we’ll do we’ll leave.’ And there was a clause in the thing that you signed that said if you had an apprenticeship, um, you could say that you want to continue with your apprenticeship and you’d be let off the signing up [cough] so about twenty-five of us turned up outside the office and we all marched in one by one into the boss and we all said, ‘We want to continue with our apprenticeship serg.’ And there was no messing about. It was, ‘OK that’s it, OK that’s it.’ And that was the end of it. I was sent to Filey, near Scarborough, kitted out with my suit and trilby hat and stuff and, er, released from the RAF. And then I came home and I was fed up really, I really was and, um, the other thing was coming back into Civvy Street was most strange because I was only a kid when I went in and I’d lived with loads of people and then suddenly bumph you’re out and you were on your own. And living in London there wasn’t much going on there as far as I was concerned and money was tight. So, um, that’s what we did.
CB: Where was your apprenticeship? Where was your apprenticeship?
RD: Oh sorry, yeah, that was at Rootes, Rootes Group in Acton, and we were making Sunbeams, Talbots and, um, Humbers bodies and during this time I was there, of course, I was working on all these things. I was a panel beater. And, er, there was lots of lead used on these old bodies. They don’t use it now, but what it was was when they were assembled they were hand assembled, so there was no real strict conforming, so when they came off the body with the doors the doors wouldn’t fit. The body was all weird. So it all had to be jacked out and messed about and then the joints were, were spot-welded, so that had to be covered with lead and I got the job of, amongst other guys, finishing lead so I did that and, um, got lead poisoning. So what happened then was my teeth started feeling awful and my gums — and I couldn’t at a piece of bread. So I went to the hospital and they said, ‘Well there’s only one thing for it. We’ll have to take all your teeth out.’ So they took all my teeth out and by then Rootes, Rootes Group had shut down their production on Talbots and we were out of a job but my union [emphasis] had taken up the lead poising business because there were others obviously. There were some that were really bad. They could hardly walk with this business. It got into their bones. So, um, that was it and then what happened then was I got a letter from the union with a cheque and the cheque was for a hundred pounds which I suppose nowadays would be — what, a thousand? And that was it, in settlement of my claim but obviously some of the old boys never made it I don’t — anyway that was it. So we left that. What did I do then? [cough] Um, oh that’s right, I took up motor cycling. I mean, that was good. My little bike was passing cars on the road and the rest of it. So I took up motor cycling. I met my dear wife and she used to sit on the back and terrified but she liked it. But we had good fun and I met lots of people and I, I got a job, er, as a panel beater on car repairs in Haddenham, where we are now, across on the estate, industrial estate, and I did that until I retired. And then when I retired I took up the Air Crew Association and I met some lovely people. Ah they were great guys. They are now [emphasis]. Look at, look at my mate here, you know. They are, they’re so helpful and lovely, all of them. And that’s what I done and I became the welfare officer. At one time we’d left [unclear] when I was squadron bomb aimer and, er, we used to go round all the guys and cheer them up or have a chat, exactly, more or less like you guys are doing really, all voluntary, but well done and absolutely loved doing it. And then, er, as time went on and I gave that up. I used to organise lots of trips, didn’t I? And one of the trips I, I managed to get was I wrote to, um, the Mem— Memorial Flight, Lincoln, and they wrote back and said, ‘Yeah, come up and we’ll give you a flight.’ So I went up with two of my mates [cough] I think that’s [unclear] there and, low and behold, and we got a trip in a Lancaster, which was quite nice. What else did we do?
CB: I’m going to stop it there because your drink is —
RD: Oh yeah —
CB: [background noise] Now after refreshments we’re just picking up on a few things now. So Ron, er, it’s difficult to understand when you haven’t experienced it what it was like in gunnery training. What was the first thing they did to teach you how to shoot from an aircraft?
RD: Right, so what they did was, um, you first go on the rifle range, obviously, at the gunnery school and then you would go to a turret, um, which was fired into the butts and then you sat in that and, er, you operated it and you fired it and that was fine. Then you were taught, um, the amount of deflection you gave to each aircraft, so you had to learn — yeah, really — I still — you had to learn the wing span of the aircraft. So you had to identify the aircraft. If it’s an ME109 — I forget now, I’ve got it somewhere, it’s thirty-odd feet, and then you had to, um, in your mind, give a little bit of leeway or whatever there and then the other thing was — it was silly really, in my opinion, but I’m, I’m probably wrong, but all the training was done by what they called curve pursuit. That’s what they called it. It’s in the book somewhere.
CB: And what did that mean?
RD: Curve pursuit — it meant you fly here and the aircraft would come here, the Spitfire or Hurricane or whatever, and supposedly a German aircraft, and it would come round and then it would —
CB: In a curve.
RD: Start firing and then break down or break down that way. So you had to give your deflection and it would be — I forget now, um, anyway you had to gradually bring it in to the, to the dock and the dock would be when that’s right astern.
CB: OK.
RD: But the attacking aircraft would never get into that positon because they come along that like and then they dived down and away. They wouldn’t make a dead, a dead shot.
CB: OK but if I can just ask you another question there though because these are technical phrases really? So what do you mean by deflection?
RD: Well deflection is when the bullet leaves the gun you got — it’s got to go from there to the aircraft and also the aircraft is moving at a speed so you’ve got to fire —
CB: Ahead of it.
RD: In front of the aircraft all the time and gradually decreasing it, you get what I mean? There’s the sight there. It starts off there, um, and you’re gradually decreasing the, the deflection until its zero right behind you.
CB: Cause as it gets close —
RD: But you get —
CB: Yes but the further away it is the greater the deflection because the bullet has to go further.
RD: That’s right and then the bullets wouldn’t strike anyway really. The proper, proper range, where you can do damage really was two hundred yards but you opened fire at six hundred yards.
CB: Rihgt, OK. And how many rounds were there in — for each gun?
RD: Oh, there were hundreds. There used to be in the old aircraft there used to be a can and they’d fill it up but these aircraft, the Wellie as well, they found there was not enough bullets so in the aircraft hallway up there’s a big, um, storage thing —
CB: A drum.
RD: A steel box, steel box, and they’re laid like that, flexible links [cough] and they’d go down this chute onto the power, power roller sort of thing, right, that drags them along and it would go along there, quite a good, a nice job, under the turret —
CB: This is the rear turret?
RD: Yep. And then to the guns so you’d have one, two, three, four, four of each, and once you’d put them in the breach and locked it down then, when you fired, the strength of the round going in pulled the bullets along so, you know, they just kept feeding in, sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, OK.
RD: [cough] Very uncomfortable, um, and the controls were like a motorbike controls, um, left, right, up, down and triggers. No heating, um, but they did have one plug which would be for an electric suit and if you were lucky enough you got an electric suit. They did have them but they were a bit troublesome. But anyway, on this particular night, I had an electric suit and we did a high, high trip and it was absolutely freezing cold, um, your eyes ice up and you got to watch the oxygen because, er, your spittle sort of goes in the oxygen tube and then it ices up, so you got to make sure it’s clear by cracking it, you know, so you can breathe. How many people passed out or whatever I don’t know but that’s what you had to do, um, what else was there?
CB: So the gunsight itself, what is like that?
RD: Oh yeah, it was the old-fashioned one —
CB: Was a circle, was it?
RD: It was just a little round thing like that with a hood, that’s all, with a sight that’s projected by light at the bottom, know what I mean?
CB: So there was spot in the middle of it, was there?
RD: A dot in the middle.
CB: Yeah, a dot.
RD: And a circle.
CB: Right and —
RD: And when the aircraft got close, um, you got it right on the outside and you gradually decreased it. It was all luck of the draw really. And then — oh, yes, that’s right, the electric suit — so this one — another drama — I plugged in the suit and, er, when you’re high up you tend to sweat a little bit, believe it or not, just on the back of the neck and things and, of course, this bloody suit when I moved my neck like that it was going [buzzing sound] it was sending a small charge through. Oh dear and this part here was beautifully warm, really, really, really warm. This was there so I had to keep turning it off and get freezing cold, turn it on and get it warm and everything. Anyway what happened when I got back I complained, took it off, and low and behold, my jumper had — a big polo neck thing had a ruddy big hole in it [laugh] and it went through that and it went onto my battle dress [laugh]. It didn’t burn my skin but what was happening it was shorting out there [cough] and burning my clothes [laugh]. That was another saga and that was it.
CB: You were lucky not to get fried.
RD: Well yeah [laugh] but it was, it was so damn cold. It really, really was.
CB: So what temperature would it have been outside?
RD: Jesus, I don’t know, I don’t know, minus twenty?
JL: Probably more than that, depends what height you were at.
CB: More likely to be minus forty.
RD: Forty yes, you know, that is —
CB: But very cold anyway.
RD: That’s bloody cold. But one plane I flew in at the Conversion Unit had been an ex-squadron Lancaster, it’s time had expired or whatever, and it been sent to the Conversion Unit and I saw pictures of this as well, it did happen. The visibly with perspex and the turret visibly really is very limited because the guns were there, the sight’s there, and you’ve got panels, so what they did they cut the hole, um, glass area off —
CB: The back.
RD: So yeah. So when I got in this thing you were literally sat there with nothing, just obviously the guns and stuff, but, um, cor that must have been bloody cold but they did it. Thing is they had to do it, didn’t they? Because, you know, they were losing aircraft left, right and centre. And the other thing is, the silly thing that I think is, um, quite a while before, um, these ops become more frequent, um, they were losing aircraft. They couldn’t understand it. What was happening, as you all know now probably, was the fact that they had these Messerschmitt would, would up and firing cannon at an angle. Well, you’re sitting here and you can’t see down there, and these things used to come along like that and just blast the old cannon into the aircraft. And that’s it, you — well they’d always put it into the wing, not to the fuselage, because with the bomb load they could kill theirselves — put it into the wing, engine caught fire and that’s it. They knew about this but the thing was to put a turret in — the first Lancaster, the very very first Lancaster built — I don’t know whether you know this — but there was an under turret. But the powers that be, they were on about bomb load, so they took the turret out and made more space for a bomb bay [cough] so they were coming underneath there and doing that. So, um, one squadron, I think it was 77, a Halifax Squadron, um, they cut a hole and put a .5 drill on the mounting, um, to make sure that they could see what was going on underneath but I don’t think that was very good. But that was where most of the casualties were, underneath, firing, not direct, not this silly curve pursuit thing. They wouldn’t do that, that was daft. Then the Lanc, er, the Lincoln was a stretched Lanc really, very nice, different, a little bit of comfort and in the turret totally different. There were 2.5s [cough] pardon, two half inch Browning and, er, a little desk. It was amazing really. You could put your hands out and a single column which fired by a button on top and you could do all this and that would do all that instead of doing all this and the sight was, um, what they called a gyro-sight. It was on the front — was — it had ME109, FW190, Heinkel 111 and the idea was you identified the aircraft you turned this thing round to whatever aircraft you identified, which would feed into this system, the wing span, and the sight itself would be, I think — let me think, yeah, diamonds, yeah, you understand?
CB: Yep.
RD: Little white diamonds, one in the middle, and when you moved the turret these diamonds in this screen would, would — were black. You know what I mean? You know, you would start off there, they were black, and when you come astern it would — and that was the gyro-sight, which is quite successful really, but how many were shot down like that I don’t know. It was quite a nice sight and the heating was incredible, there was heating as well, um, quite comfortable actually, very good [cough].
CB: OK. Just going back to gunnery school, how did they teach you to do deflection shooting before you got in the turret?
RD: Well — no —
CB: Clay pigeon?
RD: Yeah.
CB: So how much of that did you do?
RD: That’s it.
CB: How much of that did you do?
RD: It was quite a bit and you know it’s the usual thing you’d start behind there so the clay went out like that. You had to deflect, you know, because the thing’s dropping isn’t it? Fire and then you go on the quarter which is again, er, more or less, a detraction and then on the beam, which would be, um, full [?] deflection and then on the spar [?], which would be going the other way, you do less. It’s quite — you know, it was fairly easy because you didn’t sight it. Well people must know, you just covered the clay, you know what I mean? And — but you had to follow on and that was the thing.
CB: It was to [unclear]
RD: So many, you know, so many would sight it up and stop and pull the trigger and, of course, it was too late but it was the flow. That’s it.
CB: And that, that taught you the importance of flow?
RD: Yeah. So that was it.
CB: And fast forward when you went to 97 Squadron.
RD: Sorry?
CB: You went to 97 Squadron. Did you — so was the war in Europe over by then?
RD: Yeah. We were called the —
CB: The Tiger Squadron.
RD: Tiger Force.
CB: Tiger Force.
RD: But of course that fell through, didn’t it? I think, I think it was a good thing too because the Lincoln wasn’t, wasn’t sorted for that sort of thing. You know, um, what the [unclear] forces were doing — they were doing — what two or three thousand miles, fifteen hundred miles, you know? And the old Lanc — well, it, it was alright. And of course what the fuel you put on then it lessened the bomb load and that’s why they did away with this under-turret and why didn’t fit one. They knew what was going on. I know for a fact. I‘ve seen photos of the Lanc wing with bullet holes in it and they put rods through and it shows you that the, the cannon shells were going in at an angle underneath the aircraft.
CB: Did they, um, tell you about that?
RD: No.
CB: What do you understand about scarecrow?
RD: Yes, well that didn’t take place. I’m sorry, it didn’t take place, in my [emphasis] opinion. I’ve spoken to many people and seen different things [clock chimes] and, er, no they were flames, explosives. They’d been hit in the bomb bay and, er, just — but they thought they were scarecrows, big, big, big guns firing scary things up them and big explosions, you know. But that’s in my opinion. I mean, I’m just saying.
CB: There was, there were lots of different situations in, obviously, in the war but how did you get on with the people who joined up with you and did you keep in touch with them for a period?
RD: Yeah, I kept in touch. I’ve got a photo there, see. Yeah, I had great friends. Fred Davies, he was a Welshman, he was a nice guy. Yeah, there was no, no animosity, nothing, right? None whatsoever, in, in my lot, put it that way. [clock chimes]
CB: The crew went together well?
RD: No animosity or anything. Really lovely. [clock chimes]
CB: And as far as mates were concerned, how many of those did you lose on the way?
RD: Well, I lost two, that’s right, yeah, two gunners, well two crews and that was the course at OTU.
CB: What happened to them?
RD: [clears throat] Well one of them was coming into land on the runway and at night. [clock striking] This was the thing, at night, and, er, it landed short and went in the forest. I’ve got some pictures of that somewhere and, er, smashed a tree [?] and that was it. And the other one was a friend of mine and Sandy and I go to Botley because that’s where they’re buried. And this crew — they were nice. There was Robin, Robbie I called him. He was rear gunner and there was the navigator. The pilot was called Ferdinando and they also had on board instructors so I should think there was probably on board five —eight people. And what it was, we, we, were on the way back to the aerodrome at Morton and a big weather front came in and we were told — it said by radio, you know, watch it there’s a bit dodgy weather and we managed, believe it or not, got in fine. We landed, perhaps because we’d got a good pilot, Pete, you know, he’d done it before. And while we were standing there waiting for the truck to come along and load our stuff in, in the distance on the hill — it was only six hundred foot high, apparently, they found out afterwards — there was a big red glow come up and died down quickly and we all thought, ‘What the hell’s that?’ And, er, I thought no more of it. And then in the morning of course when, when we went for breakfast there was, um, pictures of this and there was the Lincoln [?] and they were all killed and Robbie was too. He was a great character. Yeah.
CB: So next you went to the HCU and the HCU you went to 97 Squadron but the war finished. So how did everybody feel about that?
RD: Well we stopped [laugh] sorry. That’s the reason why I left anyway [cough]. Not only that they’re demoting you and bringing in these new grades and chucking you in — you hadn’t got a mess then I suppose. I don’t know where you went. They didn’t have a gunners’ mess, whatever, I don’t know. You just felt let down. You know what I mean?
CB: Let down because —
RD: Well I was —
CB: Because you hadn’t seen the action, is that what you meant?
RD: There was that to it but it was the way you were treated after the war — it was, it was just falling to bits, you know, I mean, as you say, the aircraft — the economy [?] of it was time-expired bloody Lancs and squadrons. The Wellingtons were well on their way out really. And also the morale was there. I mean, when you’ve got a group of guys together and they’re doing something, you know, dodgy [laugh] flying and — you don’t know what’s going to happen, put it that way. Then you become very close but then, as I say, look at myself. I was told to fly with them and fly with them and fly with them. I didn’t even know the crew. Then when Pete left so there was nothing, as far as I was concerned, and the war, that had ended, and I thought, ‘Well, what is there?’ And they started coming out with these aircraft that could — jets, you know. Oh yes, that’s right, sorry. There’s a little thing I must tell you as the fact that when we was there on the Lincolns we were told that there would be an exercise with Canberra’s, you know, so we got in the aircraft, I got in the aircraft and that was it. Then these Canberras were going to do a diving attack on our aircraft. So I’d got this gyro-sight, so the Canberra was way up there, carrying on the same course, and I’m looking at that and thinking, ‘Right, when you come down I’ll get you.’ And, er, he came down. I went like that and the gyro-sight toppled, get what I mean?
CB: Absolutely.
RD: It was, it was too quick. So that’s another thing, I mean [laugh]. Useless, isn’t it. What can you do?
CB: Sure.
RD: You know, you get the 262s, you know, and had you got plenty more of them they could have done a lot of damage.
CB: What sort of experiences were fed back when you were in the HCU? Because a lot of the crews had been on operations. So what did you get from that?
RD: Well they were quite happy, you know, really, I suppose but, um, I never doubted that, they’d done their tour or whatever, um, yeah, we were alright. But of course the thing is, with the older people in the RAF — I’m not talking about peacetime, wartime as well — the older people in the RAF. I mean, we were, we were at a dance, er, I forget where it was. Anyway, I was — I’d got my buddy [?] and things. It might have been Morton or somewhere and [cough] the guys were having a few beers like everybody else and enjoying it, lovely, and then in the morning we were told to go to the cinema, all sergeant aircrew to go to the cinema. So we went to the cinema and there was the CO and he said, ‘Right.’ He said, ‘I’ve never seen such a disgusting display of behaviour by all you people at this dance.’ He said, ‘You should be ashamed of yourself.’ And I heard it at school as well. They used to tell me, ‘You’re nothing like your fathers and your people before you.’ ‘You’re a disgusting young people and to pee in the middle of a bloody dance floor.’ He said, ‘It’s just the top of the thing. That’s disgusting.’ So we thought, ‘Yeah, that’s nice isn’t it? That’s typical of what’s going to go on.’ So we left there and it turned out it was a ground crew sergeant that pissed on the floor. So there you go. Not that I’m saying anything about the ground crew. They were lovely. We all had our moments, I must admit.
CB: How did the air — the crew of your aircraft get on with the ground crew?
RD: Lovely, yeah, but then again you didn’t see a lot of them unless you walked around and spoke to them. Yeah, they were fine, um, but you read reports of course that they were not fine, you know. They were — you know there’s a bloke, his statement I got upstairs [cough] written by some — in my opinion — brain has gone — about ground crew, he said they — a whole list of it, they hated us, they did this, they did that [cough]. It’s all rubbish. That’s how it, um, came about, you know, by their state of mind. Obviously they must have had a bad time or something like that and that was it. I don’t know whether that’s —
CB: Did you keep in touch with your crew after the war?
RD: Yes. Yeah. I’ve got some photos there —
CB: I’m going to stop this now. [background noise]
RD: All the pictures that you see of the Lincoln now. They’ve taken the gun turret out, mid-upper, I don’t know why.
CB: Just on this topic. We are talking now about gunnery again about equipment. How did you feel about using point 303s instead of .5s? Because the Lincoln had .5s.
RD: I used to think at that time that was, that was OK because, um, if I remember rightly, I think at six hundred yards, no four hundred yards, you get an area of a twenty two foot six square.
CB: A cone.
RD: So, you know, you’ve got a chance of hitting but a little 303 like that [cough] on the under plate on the front of these aircraft would just bounce off unless you got a lucky hit, which they did, they did at times, I must admit they did. But the 20 mill that was alright, my God that was — phew, bloody hell, that was a thing that was. And to load them you had to get in the turret and, and drop a, an arming tool down a hook and you had to drop it down to the breach, hook on the 20 mil cannon shell, and then pull it up, um, into the breach.
CB: This was the belt, the belt of shells.
RD: But the thing was you had to be very careful because some of the shells were impact used and if you got hold of it and pulled it like that you could blow yourself up. [cough] I think they discontinued those anyway. But they did with the turret. It was too much. I was as deaf as a post anyway.
CB: Ok. Thank you. I’m going to stop it now. [interview paused at 1:23:14:01 and restarted 1:23:16:2]
RD: Now we’ve glossed over [background noise] what you did after leaving school before joining the RAF. So you left school at fourteen Ron, what did you do before you joined the RAF and where did you live?
RD: At fourteen I went to Rootes and they were building, at that time, the stern frame and the centre section, wing centre section, of the Blenheim and, um, my first job there was to put behind a guillotine, which I had visions of one of these French guillotines coming down and chopping my head off, but it was a machine obviously and it cut metal, and I was the holder-upper on the guillotine, and my job was to go behind the guillotine. The guy operating it was there and I used to hold it and, er, it would cut and then I would put it down and cut, put it down and —
CB: This is aluminium sheet is it? Sheet aluminium?
RD: Alclad.
CB: Alclad.
RD: Alclad. Yeah, I used to do that and then there was guys going round with rivets and the rivets had to be normalised and, um, they were put in salt baths for a certain amount of time and all us guys had trays and at certain times of the day, and when I was free from this guillotine, you were given these rivet, rivet boxes and you had to go round to each guy, take his old rivet box and give him new a rivet box and that would go all the way through the cycle so that the rivets were always soft, yeah? And would harden with age. And then I was offered a job, sheet metal work, right, and I was taken on by the union as a, as an apprentice for sheet metal work and I used to do a bit of riveting and a bit of this and a bit of that, and shaping things and that, and, um, I think that was — that went on for — oh how long? Three years, that’s right, three years. By that time I could do a pretty good job at, um, panel beating. I was knocking out dents or whatever in the aluminium stuff and that. And then of course the end of the time came and, er, I got my calling up papers. I went to — what’s the name of the place? The house in London?
CB: What, to Lords?
RD: No. It’s a building. Oh God, Air Ministry RAF place — it’s got a name. Anyway, I went to there and that’s where all the things, medicals were done, and I went to that and then in my log book you’ll see A3B, A3B, NL what it was I got to do this thing, the length of leg, and I think it had to be thirty, thirty inches, yeah, and when they shoved me up — it was very crude in a way. They shoved me up against a, a back wall and then they would measure your leg length and mine was twenty-nine. So I got one guy pushing me back like this and the other guy pulling my legs to try and get the extra inch but it didn’t work out. So I could, according to that, I could never be a pilot because I didn’t have the leg length [cough]. [unclear] Of course, er, there was a little guy who used to fly, um, Kittyhawks and stuff and I used to take him to the Air Crew Association and, um, his job was to liaison with people, with these aircraft, and I always remember a little tale he said was, er, when he was in the Far East, he was told to fly from — I don’t know where it was, Libya to Malta, and he was told in — where the headquarters were — but this was a special message for the admiral in Malta, so he said, ‘ I’ve just come from a trip.’ And they said, ‘No you cannot worry about that, get in the aircraft and do this job because it’s very, very important.’ OK, gets in his Spitfire, flies off and lands in Malta and he said, ‘I’ve got a very special secret message for the admiral.’ So he had — was escorted to the — I don’t know where it was, the naval base, and went in front and saluted and gave the admiral this, er, this envelope [cough] and, um, the admiral went over there near the window and sort of opened the thing, ‘Oh, jolly good, jolly good, yeah. I bet the odds on that will be really great.’ He said, ‘OK, you can go and get yourself a meal now.’ And it was a tip. [laugh]
CB: For racing.
RD: For horse racing in Malta.
CB: [background noise] Ron was, um, in London during the war before he joined the RAF so what was it like Ron when you were in London and experiencing the air raids?
RD: I was only fourteen at the time [clears throat] and the war started. The sirens went and everybody panicked and run around, and got under tables and things, but then it was the all clear. And then nothing happened at all for quite some time, until one day above, in the sky above us, and over London itself there were vapour trails, loads and loads of vapour trails, and aircraft way up high, and then a smudge of smoke from where we were on the horizon. If you got upstairs and looked out you could see a smudge of smoke and that was when they first started bombing the docks and they caught fire, several of the granaries and other places along there, which really made a blaze, and all this was going on in a relatively small area of London called the East End [cough]. Unfortunately, that is where the real English people were, the cockneys, the, the miners, the coal — you know, the dockers, all sorts of things, and, er, living a very frugal life. But these bombs came down and wiped out a lot of the East End and then the fire got even worse and you could see the red on the horizon. I thought it was a good idea but — it’s silly again — but me and my mate said, ‘Let’s have a bike ride up there and see if we can see what’s going on somewhere.’ But we, we rode up there through London itself, near the East End, and then we were turned back because the police were there and God knows what, um, and then at night, they started to bomb at night, and this went on for, oh dear, four or five months maybe, maybe more. But every night, without doubt, without any problem, the siren would sound and then the bombers would come over. Then in the morning when it got light the all-clear would go. There was no guns, nothing. They just came over and did what they did. Then one night, one particular night, we were all there and waiting for the sirens to go and the sirens went, and we had an Anderson shelter in the garden and we went down there, sort of thing, and then the guns started. You never heard [cough] anything like it [chime] and all the guns down south were created in London, you know, mobile guns and everything and, um, they just fired hundreds of shells up in the air but they didn’t, they didn’t, they couldn’t target anything. They didn’t know anything about where they were or anything. They just fired everything and the idea was, apparently, I found out, was to raise morale of people — ‘cause every night they sat there and the bombs were coming on top of them and nothing was happening. So this, er, lot went up and — but they still carried on bombing and, er, we had a few two roads up that, um, dropped and killed some people and then they hit the gas, a big gasometer there, which was quite something that. That went up in a big flare [chimes]. It was a good mark but quite frankly I didn’t see, where I was in the west of London, I didn’t see a great deal. The one thing they did drop was an oil bomb which was a barrel full of crude oil with a detonator on it and that come down in Shepherds Bush Green. It didn’t do any damage but it made a mess, black muck everywhere. I can’t — that’s it as far as I was concerned, er, and then I joined the ATC and through that I used to cycle to the ATC and come back. And then I joined the fire watchers [slight laugh]. They brought out a thing, dousing the incendiaries, because this is what, what caused so much problem in London and everywhere, thousands of incendiaries came down, burned the roof and burned the place out. So they brought out voluntary fire parties and what you did you got together as a neighbourhood and you were issued with a stirrup pump and a bucket and, er, told how to put these fires out by laying on the floor and pressing the thing and one thing or another but if you pressed — put water directly on it it would just explode so you had to be very careful [cough]. So I did that for a while and then, as I say, I joined the ATC and used to go there and then the bombing receded then because that was the time, I believe, that the Germans were going into Russia. They wanted all their aircraft over there, most of them, and that was it. Then I joined the ATC. The V1s that caused — I’ve spoken to you about, at Clapham, when we were on the preliminary air crew training course, er, that was another sort of thing. Oh and by the way, um, when I was home, home in London I had a five-day leave — Chiswick was quite near us — but there one tremendous great explosion and, er, it blew some houses down and things and, er, people didn’t hear any aircraft or anything. And that was the actual first V1 rocket that hit the, hit the ground in London.
CB: First V2.
RD: V2, sorry, V2, yeah.
CB: Were there many refugees from the east of London coming your way. What happened with them?
RD: They all went in hotels and things along what they call Bayswater Road, which runs along Hyde Park, and they were all put in there, loads and loads of them, quite a lot from Malta to help them out, um, very good actually. They really looked after them I must admit, um, what was I going to say? Oh, the other thing is, what surprised me was after the war, er, Malta had, had been saturated with bombs and so many killed and this place was just wrecked. But they began to build it up and there was a guy apparently, I think called Mintoff, which was the president of all of them, the boss, and he asked our government for a million pound to help with the job and it was refused. Typical politics I suppose I’m afraid. But that’s life. Thank you very much.
CB: Thank you Ron. [recording device stops at 1:39:12:6 and restarts 1:39:17:01] This is just a summary of Ron’s situation. Even though he joined the RAF on 31st of January 1944 at Lords and Grove Court he never became operational during the hostilities. He’d chosen to be an air gunner and, er, was sent on a wireless operator course, with a view to then going to air gunner. However he ended up being shunted from pillar to post instead of actually going to, er, straight squadron operations. So various training he undertook included RAF regiment and educational training. He eventually left the RAF in 1947.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ronald George Doble
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-17
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Sound
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ADobleRG151117
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Doble grew up in London and joined the Air Training Corps and the fire watchers when war was declared. He volunteered for the Air Force when he was 18 and trained as an air gunner. He talks about the conditions in his turret and the mishaps he had with his crew. Ron was never operational and left the RAF in 1947. He then returned to his former job as a panel beater were he stayed until he retired. When he retired be became involved in the Air Crew Association.
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Cathie Hewitt
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
1947
Language
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eng
Format
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01:40:15 audio recording
1653 HCU
21 OTU
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
displaced person
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Dalcross
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Yatesbury
Scarecrow
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/522/8755/AMannA160130.1.mp3
d2a90089f5928af7fb99f9c211eae77a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mann, Alan
A Mann
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Mann, A
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Alan Mann (b.1926). He was an apprentice at De-Havilland during the war and experienced bombing in 1940.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Alan Mann and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-01-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GC: Right. This is an interview that’s being conducted for the International Bomber Command. My name is Gemma Clapton. The interviewee here today is Alan Mann and it’s being conducted in Bromley in Kent on the 30th of January 2016. I know you didn’t serve in the war but tell me a little bit about life during World War Two as you recall it.
AM: Well, I was, first of all I was, I was born in 1926 and so when war was actually declared it was 1939. I was about twelve years old. Really too young to do much in the war but I went to, I was educated at Brockley Grammar School for about three months until the Munich Crisis which was 1938 and the school was evacuated to Robertsbridge. I didn’t go and for several months I was without a school and then I took an exam to go in to the South East London Technical College which I did for three years. After that I joined the Redwing Aircraft Company at Croydon as an apprentice and I wasn’t very happy with that. I was repairing Wellington fuel tanks and saw that the RAF at Kidbrooke were advertising for apprentices so decided to try my luck with them and at the age of fourteen I joined the RAF at Kidbrooke which was the Number 1 Maintenance Unit. We were repairing aircraft engines and goodness knows what and also half of it was the Balloon Barrage Centre. The Number 1 Balloon Barrage Centre where they were producing and repairing balloons and whatever. The most important thing they had a band there called the Sky Rockets which I used to go and see at rehearsals and got to know them quite well and got to like the big band music. Anyway, I joined at fourteen and my first job was repairing Merlin engines and I worked with a Rolls Royce fitter who was ex-army. He was 8th army. A little interesting story there because he was invalided out of the 8th army. He was in tanks and he had a medical and the doctors said to him, ‘Yes. Well, you’ve got Gonorrhea.’ And he said, ‘I’ve got what? I’ve not been with a woman for ages.’ He said, ‘I’m sorry. You have. And as a result of that you won’t be able to fight in the army anymore.’ Anyway, it turned out to be Gunner’s Ear. So, that was it. That was his story in the army. And anyway I stuck that repairing Merlins for two years. I was then sixteen and I wanted to be an aircraft designer. We all did in those days. The youngsters. Either an aircraft designer or a fighter pilot. I wanted to be an aircraft designer so the head of Kidbrooke at that time was a Wing Commander Clapp and I don’t know how I actually got to see him but I know I was sixteen at the time and he summoned me in to his office and he sat there in his wing commander’s uniform with all his medals and goodness knows what and eventually he said to me, ‘And what do you actually want?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m sorry. I’m a bit unhappy with my apprenticeship. I’ve been repairing Merlins for two years. I can almost do it backwards now.’ And he said, ‘Well, you know, what actually do you want to do? We can, you’ll get qualified as a ground engineer.’ And so I said, ‘Well I don’t want to be a ground engineer. I want to be an aircraft designer.’ And he sort of smiled and said, ‘Well I do know somebody at Bristol Aircraft Company.’ And I said, ‘I don’t want to join them. They can’t make aircraft.’ He said, ‘Well who do you want to join?’ I said, ‘de Havilland’s.’ He said, ‘They’ll never have you.’ I said, ‘Why is that? He said, ‘Well their very exclusive first of all. They prefer university people. And not only that it’s three hundred guineas for a three year course.’ That’s a lot of money. Well at that time the average salary was about four pounds a week so it was a lot of money. Much more than my dad could afford. Anyway, we hummed and hahhed and he said, ‘Well if you want to write to de Havilland’s I don’t mind. You can certainly write to de Havilland’s.’ So I thanked him, came back and wrote to de Havilland’s. I didn’t hear anything for about six weeks or so and then I was summoned to Stag Lane, de Havilland’s’ at Stag Lane, for an interview. And I remember that one of the people that interviewed me was Hearle who was one of the founder members of de Havilland so he was quite an important director and we had a little chat. He said, ‘Why did you want to join de Havilland’s?’ and I was off. They couldn’t stop me. My father was a compositor working for The Evening Standard and his boss was Lord Beaverbrook and Lord Beaverbrook eventually became Minister of Aircraft Production, a very successful Minister of Aircraft Production and his son was Max Aitken. A very competent fighter pilot. He had shot down fourteen and eventually ended up as a Group Captain DSO, DFC and goodness knows what. Anyway, my dad used to keep me in touch with what Max was doing and Max was a fighter pilot at our local airfield. Incidentally, I lived at Lewisham and our local airfield was Biggin Hill. So we used to cycle along as school kids to Biggin Hill and my dad used to, well he was a bit of a journalist as well. He used to go along to Croydon pre-war and interview the people that was arriving and departing. I was more interested in the aircraft naturally and so I got to know the aircraft quite well at Croydon. That’s pre-war. The Hercules, the Handley Paige HP45 which were flying at the time and at the same time was the de Havilland Albatross which was a wonderful looking aircraft for that time. An airliner. And I subsequently found out that eighty percent of the aircraft at Croydon at any one time were built by Geoffrey de Havilland’s aircraft company and engined by Frank Halford. Frank Halford I got to know because my dad used to take me to Brooklands Racing Track pre-war and Frank Halford, Major Frank Halford, he was in the RFC during the Great War. Major Frank Halford had designed his own racing car and engine and he was winning a lot of competitions at that time so I got to know the Frank Halford the engine designer and also de Havilland’s for the famous aircraft he was building. Anyway, to cut a long story short I had a letter from de Havilland saying that they would be willing to take me and I went in to see the Wing Commander Clapp and he also knew that I’d got this letter and he hadn’t any objections. So he transferred the last of my seven year apprenticeship, the last five years to de Havilland’s and I started work one year at [Vanden?] Court learning how to use files and things like that and eventually got my first job at Stag Lane under Major Frank Halford. I stayed there for about a couple of years. In fact I suppose I would have been about seventeen to eighteen at that time and I was working on the first production jet engine which was designed by Frank Halford. It was at that time called the H1 and subsequently became the Goblin. The Goblin was the engine that started off in the jet aircraft and ended up in the first Comet airliner. So that was that and then after my apprenticeship I was – oh well no, no, I missed out a bit. During my stay at Stag Lane I was summoned to another meeting with de Havilland’s. It wasn’t Geoffrey de Havilland. It was Nixon and Hearle again and they offered me a studentship which was at that time the three hundred pounds for a three year course. They offered me, there was about nine students appointed each year from the trade apprentices and I was offered one of these positions as a student and didn’t have to pay. The problem was I was still living at Lewisham and had to commute from Lewisham to Hatfield during the war which was a bit of a job. I had to clock in at Hatfield at 7.30 in the morning, do a fifty hour week for the princely sum of eighty five pence salary. So that was that. That was my wartime experience I suppose. Early wartime experience. But at that time while I was still at school we used to cycle to Biggin Hill. This was early 1939/1940 and we used to watch what was going on. We used to see the Blenheims flying in from Biggin Hill. Incidentally, Max Aitken, who I mentioned earlier was a Blenheim pilot and he was flying at that time from Biggin Hill. I think it was number 601 Squadron but I can’t be sure at this stage and we used to cycle from school quite regularly to see what was happening. And during the early part of the Battle of Britain, I remember it was August the 30th. Do you want to stop it now?
[Recording paused]
So it was August the 30th and Biggin Hill had already been bombed but I didn’t know anything about that at the time so we cycled as usually, as usual. We ended up where the runway would be now but there wasn’t a runway. It was just grass airfield and it was the start. Number 21 would be the runway roughly where we looked down on to the runway and as I said we used to watch the Hurricanes being refuelled by hand and there were still some old Gloster Gladiators and Gauntlets there and a Magister we saw but I can’t remember any Spitfires. Anyway, we were sitting there. This would be about 6 o’clock on a Sunday afternoon when suddenly we saw about twelve, which we thought were Blenheims, coming over quite low and then suddenly there were machine guns, bombs and goodness knows what and we were staggered actually. We didn’t expect anything like this. Nothing like this had ever happened before and suddenly the whole of the airfield was ablaze. There were people running around, there were firebells ringing. Prior to that there was no warning at all of anything happening and they turned out to be Junkers 88s. Anyway, that was that. That was quite a harrowing experience but back to the beginning of the war because really this was my war.
GC: That’s alright.
AM: Alright. Sorry about that. That was my knee knocking I think, or something. Anyway, going back to the beginning of the war again. My war really started with the school being evacuated and I was watching the guns being erected at Biggin Hill. The 3.75 naval guns being erected. Sandbags everywhere and this talk of the Munich Crisis. I was very worried because at that time I’d been with my father to all the Empire Air Days from about the age of five at Biggin Hill and I was aware that in 1939 all we had was a few Hurricanes and the Squadron I think at that time was Gauntlets and I was aware that the Germans had the new Messerschmitts. The Messerschmitts 109 and a whole lot of bombers. Junkers, Dorniers, Heinkels and goodness knows what and all we had was the ancient, really, biplane planes which were adapted from World War One. We had Hampdens and Blenheims and Fairey Battles and goodness knows what. There was a Wellington. Wellingtons. I’m talking about 1938 the last Empire Air Day which I think was in about March or April of 1938. I was there and I had just seen at that time the Spanish War was on and I’d just seen the news bulletins of the Germans bombing a Spanish village. I think it was Guernica or something sounding like that and I knew what was going to happen if the Germans started bombing us. It was just chaos and all we had at that time was a few Hurricanes, Gauntlets, Gladiators and Gloster Gauntlets and I wasn’t very happy at all that we were going to actually win anything. However, we had quite a spell of nothing happening at all which did give us a chance to recover and more or less that was the beginning of my war because I was then twelve years old as I’ve already believe I said, when I actually started the, my war but later on because I could remember what it was like when I met these famous people that had actually done something during the war I was able to relate to them. And these were mostly old people in wheelchairs and things like that. They were huddled up. I used to go over to them and say, ‘What did you do during the war?’ And out poured the stories which I had to record and this was really the bit that I enjoyed in the war. More?
[Recording paused]
Well we covered. It was the 601 Squadron. You see, I remember that. [pause] See my difficulty is that yes I lived through the war but I met a lot of people. Frank Halford. I actually worked with him on this engine there but Frank Halford is the important bit not me. I’m just, I’m just writing about it and I get this feeling that I’m a bit of a hypocrite. I’m saying what I did during the war. In actual fact what I’m doing is relating what other people did during the war.
GC: Ok. Well we’ll take it on a different tangent. As a young man. A teenage boy. What were your emotions of the war? What were, how did it effect how you thought?
AM: Ah. Ah well yes that’s all in here because you see there was a little bit there that while I was in the design department I was fine. I was happy. When I went into the workshops these were all the conscript women and these conscript women were all the young women who had suddenly left home and they were all together. No men. And their language was all sex. And I, as a young boy, was embarrassed. So what happened? As we went by these girls, who were only a few years older than me, eighteen, nineteen and twenty, used to get their breasts out to show us you see and I ran away scared. Now how I can I put that in to writing? But when I’m with Maurice we had the same experience. Maurice worked in another, he was at Stones but with a whole lot of women and they were exactly the same there as my people at de Havilland’s. So my first impression of women was they weren’t very nice. Haven’t changed very much over the years. [laughs]
GC: Tell us. You say about the women obviously were, had a different, different part of the job.
AM: Well you see mentally when you look at the women they were going [unclear] talking about the night before but doing whatever they had to do you see. When I joined them because I had to spend six months there I used to make one bit which was interesting. Then I had to do the same thing again and again until I’d got a bucket full of bits that I was doing and I thought I’m bored. But these women would do that day after day after day and all they would be talking about is what they did last night with their girlfriends because there weren’t any men. So they were a whole lot of lesbians which I didn’t know very much about at the time but only when, but when you look back these were all young virile girls without any men.
GC: Eye opener.
AM: So how can I put that in print? I have done because that is a separate me when I’ve been writing about the philosophy of life as you’ve got that little about my family there. And you see that all. We’re all talking about evolution being through bodies but it’s not. The evolution is through the life because I went down to my grandad and if my grandad walked in today you wouldn’t think he was a prehistoric monster. He looks just the same as we do now but look at his life. So the evolution is achieved. That’s another side of me. We don’t want to put that on tape do we?
GC: It’s all on tape. It’s what we take out [laughs] but I mean tell us about, I mean, you was at de Havilland during the war so you must have seen a lot of changes.
AM: All through the war.
GC: From the start of the war to the planes that finished the war. Can you tell us a little about that maybe? The evolution of the planes.
AM: No. No, because when they made me a student they put me with the propeller side of the aircraft. So I, de Havilland’s had a runway right through the middle. This side was the aircraft company. That side was making propellers and so I was on to the propellers side but I was in the design of the propellers rather than the manufacture but I used to pop out and see what was going on. No. I haven’t done very much at all when you look at it. You see this is really what puzzled me because I was, as I said I joined with, with, Maurice [came with my?] deputy and I had about nine people working for me at that time. Maurice joined as a senior draughtsman. I joined as a section leader when I went back to de Havilland’s. You don’t really want to hear about this do you? Well I was working with, with Maurice on the alternators for the Lightning aircraft. General Aircraft Lightning when I had a phone message to say that George Brown, who was the chief designer of de Havilland’s rather like Roy Chadwick was for Avro. So a very senior man. I had a phone call. Not from him but from his secretary, would I come to see him in the morning? And I said to Maurice, ‘What have I done wrong? What’s happened? Why would he want to see me?’ And Maurice said, ‘Well I don’t know. We’ve been doing alright. We’re doing everything we should be doing.’ And Maurice would tell you If he was here now, he would say that, you know, ‘You were so worried.’ Anyway, I went up to see him. There was a room with all these names, all the famous people sitting around the table including George Brown and George Brown said, ‘Oh hello Alan. Come in.’ Alan? You know, what’s all this? So they were talking, they said, ‘As you know we’ve just been awarded the contract for the intercontinental missile The Blue Streak.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ I had read about it in the paper and he went on talking and I thought why has he brought me all the way up here just to let me listen to all this. I’ve read about all this in the paper. And he said, ‘What we’d like to do is appoint you as group leader of the re-entry head,’ which is the pointed end of the missile. [laughs] I said, ‘What? I don’t know anything about missiles or anything like that.’ And he said, ‘No but we think you’re the right man for the job.’ And I said, ‘But I don’t know anything about it and he said, ‘No. We will give you the professional people and we just want you to keep them in control.’ And I came back and Maurice said, ‘What was all that about?’ And I said, ‘I’ve been promoted to group leader.’ And he said, ‘What,’ you know and [laughs] I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well you don’t know anything about missiles.’ Anyway, they gave me seventeen professionals. All university people. All famous people in their rights and I was their boss. I don’t know how I ever got it but I kept the same people for five years which is incredible isn’t it? So looking back I don’t know how. I’m not a very interesting person. Come on. Let’s face it.
GC: Alright. That’s ok.
[Recording paused]
AM: As I said I lived in Lewisham and was going backwards and forwards to Hatfield but we had the Blitz and that was dreadful. I, my father had converted the garage er the garage, the, what do you call it? Where we put the coal. The cellar. That’s the word I’m looking for. Converted the cellar, into sort of an air raid shelter. He’d strengthened it and he’d put ladders down in which we could sleep on so when the Blitz started in September 1940 in Lewisham the Germans were bombing East London at that time. It started off and some of the bombs started to fall on Lewisham and Lewisham became a target because of the junction. The Lewisham Junction. Anyway, in November 1940 I remember it quite well. It was pouring with rain, very cold and we had been playing a game of Monopoly in the evening before retiring and we listened to the 9 o’clock news read by Alvar Liddell or somebody like that. They used to announce the names so that the Germans couldn’t give us a bit of duff gen. They used to announce, the announcer was Alvar Liddell or whoever but anyway, we went down to the shelters, er to the cellars as usual. My uncle. I had a pet dog at that time called Raf. It was named after my brother who’d joined the RAF so we called him Raf, this dog, my pet dog and had my uncle and aunt staying with us. They lived at Brockley and they had been bombed out I think a week or two before so they were staying with us and we retired to the cellar as usual. There was my mum, my dad and my aunt. My uncle decided he was going to have a smoke so he was in the garden with my dog, pet dog and that was alright. We, I went to bed in sort of old trousers and old shirt and all the rest of it. Couldn’t get to sleep because this particular night it was very heavily with the bombs falling and the anti-aircraft guns. Dad used to say that we stood more chance of being killed by a bit of shrapnel then we did by being hit on the head with a bomb. Anyway, about 3.30 in the morning there were a sudden, not an explosion, we didn’t hear anything. It was so difficult to put in to words. One minute we were laying there and the next minute there was chaos. Dad was saying, ‘Is everybody alright?’ The lights had gone out. We had — Dad had rigged up some electric lights. That had gone out. I could smell gas. I was feeling wet. I didn’t know where the water was coming from and I couldn’t move. I had something on my, my legs. My dad was saying, ‘Is everybody alright?’ Mum said, ‘Yes.’ I’d got something on top of me and my aunt was saying, ‘Oh I’m wet. There’s something all on top of me.’ And suddenly there was a commotion and my uncle arrived on top of my dad and we sort of laid there stunned. I could smell gas and I don’t know how much we laid there, how long we laid there but eventually somebody shouted, ‘Anybody down there?’ And my dad said, ‘Yes. We’re down here.’ And there was some scrabbling and somebody helped me out and I remember standing in the road, pouring with rain feeling bitterly cold not knowing quite what had happened and ending up really gaining consciousness at Catford Snooker Hall where somebody was offering us some dry clothes and a cup of tea and a bun. And I looked around and mum and dad and everybody was there, my uncle. We had a few bruises and cuts and things and I said, ‘Where’s my dog?’ And there was no dog. Anyway, my, we went back the next morning to see. Dad said, ‘Lets go back and see if we can recover anything.’ There was absolutely nothing. There was no cellar, no cellar door. There was just a heap of rubble and I looked for my dog and we never found the dog and I said to my uncle, ‘What happened?’ And he had quite a story. He was in the garden smoking and he heard this plane coming dropping bombs and we had a saying that if the bombs got louder you knew that you were in the line of damage and he heard these bombs getting nearer and nearer and made a dive to the cellar door and he said he just about got to the cellar door when the bomb must have hit. And anyway the next morning there was no cellar door. We couldn’t even see where the cellar was. And how we survived that I’ve no idea. So that was my story of the Blitz. And other little incidents I suppose. I remember cycling to Kidbrooke when I worked at Kidbrooke. We had — I was cycling with dipped headlights. We had silly little headlights that were all covered with bits of metal so hardly anything ever shone on the, on the ground and I was busily cycling along and suddenly ended up in a great big hole which a bomb had just dropped and I got out of this hole helped by other people. Covered in mud with a bent bike and finished the journey on foot. So that was really my story of the Blitz except I could go on. There are so many, so many little incidents that are just coming back to me. My mum used to go shopping on a Friday afternoon and I remember that this was towards the end of the war I suppose when they were dropping V2s and V1s and she had gone to go shopping in Lewisham Market on a Friday afternoon when I think it was a V1 buzz bomb had dropped and the whole of Lewisham Market was just demolished. It was nothing there and it had happened just a few hours or so before my mother had gone shopping and she came back extremely worried. Incidentally during the war she was a school teacher at the Docklands School and one of her famous pupils was Tommy.
Other: Steele.
AM: Tommy Steele who at that time I think was six or seven years old. So yes she remembered him and I don’t know whether he remembered her. So many little stories that come back but none of them now seem to be very important. So where did we get to? We got to. Oh we’re —
GC: Tell us some more stories ‘cause, no they are interesting.
AM: Just the stories.
GC: Just the little snippets of life.
AM: Right. Well, my brother joined the air force. He was seven years older than me so when I was twelve he was about eighteen or nineteen. Something like that. Anyway, at the beginning of the war he couldn’t wait to go and join the air force so he, like my father was, he was an apprentice in the printing thing and he went to enrol with four of his friends at that time, school friends and got in to the Air Force Volunteer Reserve. They, all the other three of them wanted to become air crew so they became air crew. My brother didn’t want to do that so he became a fitter and eventually he went to South Africa at Oudtshoorn which was a maintenance unit and where they used to teach the empire. Our pilots used to go over there to, to train and another little story there as well because he was at Oudtshoorn which was three hundred miles from Cape Town and we used to hear occasionally from him. Mum used to write every week but we heard about once a month from his story and then bits were cut out of his letters where the censors had just not blue pencilled it out, they’d cut it out. So we had little letters that were virtually shreds and didn’t make a lot of sense. Anyway, to cut a long story short we heard that he’d got engaged to a girl in Cape Town. How he ever got to Cape Town we don’t know but she was the daughter of the owner of the Cape Argos which was the principal newspaper of Cape Town at that time. So suddenly my brother was mixing with a very wealthy family and he married her out there. Sylvie. And we had all the letters and things from the family and eventually when war was finished my brother came home but not with Sylvie. She couldn’t get on the, on the ship so eventually she came to England on a merchant ship and it took months for her to reach us but she never did because she died on board. We never knew why but we, it was rather sad, I had to go with my brother to Southampton to, she was buried at sea but what we got was the presents that she was bringing for us so it was all rather sad. I’d got presents and mum and dad and we never met her but she seemed a very nice person. So that was my brother. When he, while he was in South Africa he, I’m going backwards a bit now. My brother was a bit of a health freak. He used to go to Catford. There was a training centre at Catford where boxers were training and at that time we had a famous boxer called Tommy Farr who was training to meet Joe Louis who was the world champion and my brother used to train with Tommy Farr. Used to run at Blackheath. And history tells that Tommy Farr actually went the distance with Joe Louis and a lot of people thought Tommy Farr had actually won but as it was in America Joe Louis was given the verdict. Anyway, to cut a long story short while my brother was in South Africa he said he was sparring with a boxer which he thought was very good. The boxer was his PTI instructor, Physical Training Instructor, and my brother wrote to us and said that he wouldn’t be surprised if this chappy wasn’t one day a world champion and he was. It was Freddie Mills. Freddie Mills became the light heavy weight champion of the world. So that, that was another story. Nothing to do with me but it was all part of, of the family. What else happened after that I don’t know? Let’s go back to when I was a student at de Havilland’s. A student at de Havilland’s. I was, de Havilland’s at that time was split up into two section. De Havilland Aircraft Company. Three sections actually. De Havilland Aircraft Company, de Havilland Engine Company and de Havilland Propellers Company. I had joined the de Havilland Aircraft Company first of all. Then transferred to de Havilland Engines and eventually transferred to the new company which was de Havilland Propellers. So while I was there the chief engineer was George Brown and the chief draughtsman was a man called Bleasby and we were producing the propellers for the aircraft. Now there’s an interesting story there because I’ve read in a book about the Spitfire that the Hurricane and the Spitfire had gained valuable miles per hour by the fitting of the Rotol propeller. In actual fact it wasn’t a Rotel propeller it was a de Havilland propeller. The people from de Havilland’s went to Biggin Hill and altered all the fixed blade props of the Spitfires and Hurricanes in to the new constant speed air screws giving the Spitfires and Hurricanes about another eight miles per hour which was very important at those days. So it wasn’t, as everybody will say, Rotel. It was de Havilland’s. So I was transferred over to the propeller department and actually finished my apprenticeship with the propeller department. The, oh I met one or two people. One flight test I actually met Mary Ellis and Lettice Curtis, two of the ATA pilots over there. I don’t supposed they’ll remember them but a little story there that Mary Ellis actually, I asked Mary Ellis to sign some papers for my friend Maurice Green and he still has her signature on it. Whether she remembers or not. I don’t know how I managed to get it because I was only a young boy at the time and anyway there you are. That’s another story. At that time I was working. The ATA pilots were bringing in the aircraft and I was helping to replace the propellers and on one instance I was replacing the propellers on a Lancaster in thick snow when I actually fell off the wing onto the snow. Luckily there was about two foot of snow. I was ok but I didn’t go back and do too much more work that day. That, I think, if my memory is correct was the winter of 1947 and it was quite a journey I had from Lewisham.
[Phone rings. Recording paused]
AM: Yeah. A little story there that I used to go from Lewisham to Hatfield. Lewisham to London Bridge by Southern Railway. London Bridge down to the Northern Line through to Edgeware and then get a Green Line bus from Edgeware to the end of Manor Road which was about a ten minute walk from Manor Road to actually clock in at Hatfield at 7.30 in the morning. And if we were more than five minutes late we had to explain why we were late but it was a two and a half journey average to get to Hatfield. So I had to leave quite early. Anyway, on this particular day that I fell off the wing of this Lancaster, not that day but that week when it was thick snow we got to, as far as Edgeware to get the Green Line bus and there wasn’t any buses running so we decided to walk the thirteen miles from Edgeware to Hatfield which we started off in snow blizzard. Walking along the A1 we were hailed by some Land Army girls and said, ‘Would you like a cup of coffee?’ And, ‘Yes we would.’ So we joined them for a cup of coffee, had a little chat and then we went on. We actually got to de Havilland’s, if I remember correctly, about half past twelve and just in time for lunch. We had lunch and they then suggested we got the mail van back to Edgeware which we did. But I was, as I said, when I was at when I was at Kidbrooke I was very interested in the Sky Rockets band conducted by Paul Fenoulhet and I got to know them all quite well and eventually I joined a jazz club and we used to enjoy jazz and met quite a lot of the originators of jazz. George Webb and people like that and eventually ended up with John Petters Jazz Band at Chichester. Once a year they had a Jazz Festival at Chichester at Richardson’s Camp. Holiday camp. Chalets. There was about two hundred and fifty people and on this occasion we, we were there and my wife Joyce said, ‘Oh let’s go and have a sit down for a moment.’ And the room was quite full of people but there was an empty table at the end. A table with two women sitting. Two vacant seats so Joyce and I joined them and it wasn’t long before I said to one of the women, ‘What did you do during the war?’ And she said, ‘Oh we were in the Land Army. I said, ‘Oh yes. That was good.’ So I related my little story and they had a little giggle and would you believe it they turned out to be the two women that offered us the coffee on the A1 way back in 1947. And we knew it was them because we chatted about the little intimate things that they wouldn’t have known if they hadn’t have been there. So there’s another little story. So, so that was that and then the other little story there again. I had to take the Higher National at Hatfield University to become a member of The Royal Aeronautical Society which they insisted all students became members of The Royal Aeronautical Society so I became a student first of all and then was promoted to graduate. So I became a graduate and as a graduate we had to take the National Higher er Higher National Certificate but because I lived at Lewisham they allowed me to go back to my original school to do the Higher National in Mechanical and Structural Engineering which I did in 1947. 1947 I met a friend of mine that, not a friend of mine but somebody that we could have a chat to. He wasn’t in my class actually he was in another class, a class beneath me and we used to meet at the break time for a little chat. I used to look forward to that because we were talking about aircraft and the war and things. Anyway, when eventually I got my Higher National I lost track of him. He went his way, I went my way and eventually I re-joined de Havilland’s having left de Havilland’s. I’ll come to that in a minute, what I did when I left de Havilland but I rejoined de Havilland’s in about nineteen fifty something or other and this was in London and I joined as a section leader on the alternators for the English Electric Lightning fighter. This was to do with the airborne missiles and I worked there for about a year and eventually de Havilland’s decided that because I had so much work I had to have a deputy so they said, ‘Oh we’ll get you a deputy,’ and they did and in walked Maurice Green as my deputy. So we became reunited and we worked together on the alternator section and I had about nine people, I think, working for me. A secretary and all that sort of thing. Maurice was my chief designer really on that and I was sitting behind a desk watching all these people doing the work. Anyway, I had a telephone call and it was from George Brown’s secretary asking me to go to a meeting the following day and Maurice said I went quite pale and said to him, ‘I wonder what I’ve done wrong.’ And he said, ‘Well I don’t know.’ He said, ‘We seem to be doing everything alright.’ So I went with a great deal of trepidation to the meeting, met by the secretary and the secretary ushered me in to the board room and there were all these people sitting there. There was Hearle again and Nixon and George Brown and they were all chatting as I was standing by the door and George Brown looked up and said, ‘Oh Alan. Come over here. Take a seat.’ I thought what’s all this? Still sort of wondering what I’d done wrong and George Brown said, ‘Oh you’ve probably read in the paper that we’ve just been awarded the contract for the intercontinental two thousand mile rocket. The Blue Streak. It wasn’t call the Blue Streak at that time. It just had a number but it was subsequently The Blue Streak and I said yes and he was telling me all about it and I thought I wonder why he’s brought me all the way up here when he could have, if he wanted to talk to me we could have talked on the phone or something. Anyway, eventually what he said what we would like you to do is to become the group leader on the re-entry head. And I thought I don’t know anything about missiles. Why has he chosen me? And I said, ‘I’m sorry I,’ you know, ‘I don’t know anything about missiles or anything.’ ‘No. No. No. We’re going to give you some experts and you know you’ll have people who know all about stress and things like that but what we want you to do is to head the team.’ And I was trying to think of some excuses and I said, ‘Well I don’t, you know, I’m just about getting married and you know I don’t want to travel backwards and forwards to Hatfield again.’ He said, ‘Oh no. No. If you’re interested in taking the job we’ll give you a special section in London. We’ll do this re-entry head bit in London.’ And I said, ‘Well yes I suppose that’s alright. I’ll do it,’ still in a bit of a daze. I remember when I got home my wife said to me, ‘What happened? Did you get the sack?’ I said, ‘No. I didn’t get the sack. I was promoted. I’m group leader.’ She said, ‘Oh. How much more money are we getting?’ I said, ‘We didn’t talk about money,’ I said, ‘We just talked about the job.’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ So she said, ‘Well surely you’ll get some more money. Are you going back to Hatfield?’ I said, ‘No. They’re going to give me an office in London.’ And they did and we kept the same crew. I had seventeen mainly university people. They were all experts in their particular skills. Aerodynamics, stress and all that and I once again sat behind the desk and let them get on with it and I kept the same crew for the five years. Maurice didn’t join me. He became in charge of the airborne missiles which subsequently became the red top which was the missile that the English Electric Lightning had. Well anyway, the re-entry head carried on and we had twelve missiles ready for firing when Duncan Sandys called us to a meeting in the canteen and announced that he was going to suspend it straight away when we had all these missiles. We’d spent all the money and everything, got these missiles finished and it was cancelled and I was made redundant alongside three thousand other people overnight. And there was an article in the Daily Mail I think. There was a programme on Panorama. Yes. That’s right. A programme on Panorama about why was The Blue Streak cancelled? And there was no reason given at all except after the war engineers weren’t valued and the government wanted to spend the money on vote catching things such as education and the National Health and it’s my feeling that at that time we had one of the finest engineering teams in the world and we’ve ended up now with a substandard education and a substandard National Health. I don’t think that was any good at all but there you are. I’m not a politician. So, so that was that. Anyway, I was made redundant from de Havilland’s and at that time I think I’d got married, nineteen forty, yes I had married my girlfriend Joyce and had to get a job quickly so I got a job selling cigarette machines which was quite odd because I didn’t smoke and suddenly, this was on commission and I hadn’t a clue what I was doing and it wasn’t any good so that was that. So I then had to seek something else and joined [Saban Hart and Partners?] and was put with Saunders Rowe in their [Saban and Hart’s?] London office. They were consulting engineers. Saunders Rowe were there and I worked on the Princess Flying Boat and the SR1 flight of aircraft until Duncan Sandys cancelled both of those and once again I was out of work. So I then joined Humphreys in Glasgow as a draughtsman on civil engineering work. I think all this is out. I’ve got the dates all wrong but it doesn’t matter. It all happened sometime or other in my lifetime. And eventually I joined an old established company called Hayward Tyler but this was after the war and very little to do with the war. So, I have got a few notes here and probably reading a few notes would make more sense than me just, just rambling on. One of the things that did worry me was that if we’d actually gone to war in 1938 at the time of the Munich Crisis we wouldn’t have had any decent aircraft to fight at all. While we did have the Hurricane and Spitfire I felt very very sorry for the bomber pilots because they only had antiquated aircraft. The most modern aircraft was the Wellington bomber. The other aircraft, Fairey Battles were shot down like nobody’s business. The Blenheims were absolutely useless. Hampdens and all the motley of aircraft. It was terrible really sending the bomber people to to fight with obsolete aircraft. What a lot of people don’t realise that during the Battle of Britain we only talk about the glamour boys, the fighter boys, and they did a remarkable job but they did have modern aircraft. They had the Hurricane and the Spitfire. The bomber people had the antiquated Hampdens and even the Wellington bombers. Their first daylight visits they were shot down. Very sad and a lot of people don’t realise that we lost more bomber people during the Battle of Britain. Something like seven hundred bomber crew were lost during the Battle of Britain as against about five hundred fighter pilots and people don’t realise that. While they were fighting the Battle of Britain we were bombing the invasion barges and everything. All the German communications and everything like that. We only talk about the actual people fighting from Biggin Hill and all the rest of it. We forget about the Merchant Navy and everything else. We even forget the people themselves because when Churchill at the time of Dunkirk when we hadn’t, when we’d lost our army, Churchill wanted to continue the war and I think he only just scraped through when Lord Halifax wanted to talk about the best surrender terms that we could get and it really was the spirit of the people of that time that backed Churchill. Churchill was just saying we will fight on. ‘We’ll fight them on the beaches.’ We’ll fight them everywhere but he didn’t tell us what we were going to fight them with. We had a Dad’s Army and people laugh about that. We were parading up and down with broomsticks but I remember that very well. We were going to fight them with broomsticks and things like that but it was the spirit of the people. When you remember that France had a, I think it was a bigger army than Germany and they just wouldn’t fight. I heard stories from the pilots at Biggin Hill that were actually at France during the early part of the war with the British Expeditionary Fighting Force. When the sirens went we used to get into our aircraft to fly. The French people used to say. ‘What’s the point? We’ve lost the war anyway.’ And they carried on playing cards or whatever they were doing and they just would not take off. We had to take off. And then of course something like three million French people just laid down their arms and gave in. First sign of bombing Germany everybody gave up. Then they bombed Paris but when they bombed us we just go annoyed. We thought that wasn’t fair. So I think it really was the spirit of the people that actually helped win the Battle of Britain. And this brings me back now to the museums when I go and see the relics at a museum what is lacking is the spirit of 1940 that I miss. I look at these relics and I think that these relics once contained a life and it’s this life that I relate to more than the relics. I remember seeing a Spitfire. I think it was at Manston. It was a relic. It was just a half of a Spitfire and while I was looking at this Spitfire I got the funny feeling that I was being watched and the feeling I got was that the pilot was actually trying to tell me something. I know that sounds odd but I had many experiences like that. I remember being, after the war, trying to get a Heritage Centre built at Biggin Hill to remember the fighter pilots that lost their lives. Fighter pilots and the aircrew and even the civilians that worked there that died during the war there at the most famous fighter ’drome in the world. The number one fighter ’drome hasn’t got a Heritage Centre. Hasn’t got anything. So for nine years I worked with a team of people trying to get a Heritage Centre built. We eventually got planning permission after nine years and it was all volunteer work. We all did, everything was volunteers except when we had to employ the architect the chairman of the company paid for the architect’s fees. He eventually spent something like fifty thousand pounds of his own money and Bromley council gave us the land and we had got the design and planning permission to build this Heritage Centre. Unfortunately there was a chapel. Now the story of the chapel, the Biggin Hill chapel was that during the war during the Battle of Britain there was no chapel. We had a padre and the padre was there really to listen to people’s woes and things like that. Wasn’t a Christian, wasn’t Muslim, wasn’t anything. He was just there to give us some sort of spiritual guidance. Unfortunately, well there wasn’t, as I said there wasn’t a chapel there during the Battle of Britain. The chapel was actually built about 1943 and that was burnt out and then they built another chapel in 1956 that hadn’t got, sorry —
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Interview with Alan Mann
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Gemma Clapton
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-01-30
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Sound
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AMannA160130
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Mann was born in Lewisham, London and left school aged 14 to begin an engineering apprenticeship at RAF Kidbrooke and with de Havilland. He describes being bombed and what it was like in the workshops. After the war he had a career with de Havilland.
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Julie Williams
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Kent
England--London
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1940
1947
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00:59:41 audio recording
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
memorial
perception of bombing war
RAF Biggin Hill
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/PKirbyH1511.2.jpg
f2f26de792cac70f6b6c69e353b3a563
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/AKirbyH150710.1.mp3
415d0a343bc572167309ea13248509d0
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
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Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Kirby, H
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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NM: So, this is a recording from Harold Kirby in Pinner, my name is Nigel Moore doing the interview, and this interview is taking place on July the 10th at Mr Kirby’s home in Pinner. So, Mr Kirby, thanks for doing this, and can you tell me something about your life growing up and life before the RAF?
HK: Yes, I’m, I was born in Kilburn, and my parents moved out to Kingsbury when I was eight years old, and I went to Kingsbury County School there. At the time we moved, 1931, it was all countrified there and we had to walk across fields to Burnt Oak to, for shopping, but soon got built up. So that was my early days, and then I got married after the war and lived in Kingsbury for a while until we moved out to Pinner in 1960, that’s right.
NM: So, what about your upbringing and childhood and pre-service life as a youth?
HK: I was not very outgoing at the time, but I had a special friend, Tony, who was more outgoing and he involved me in lots of activities, but I can’t say that I did very much exciting at those days, although we did used to cycle ‘round quite a lot, both of us. So, that was, up to the war, really. [Pause] and, certainly –
NM: Okay. How did you come to join the RAF?
HK: Ah, well, I, my two school friends and myself wanted to fly with the RAF, they were accepted but I was turned down on medical grounds, they became navigators and went off, and then I was called up in, ah, August 1942, and was first, after the initial square-bashing, went to, was posted to Halton, to train as a flight mechanic, one of the first inputs of conscripts to be trained at Halton, yeah. Well, after I’d passed out as a flight mechanic, I had sufficient marks to go straight on to do a fitter’s airframe course, also at Halton, and during the time there, I, we were asked if we would volunteer to become flight engineers, they were getting a bit short, which I did, passed the medical that time, and, but initially, I was posted as a fitter to 460 Squadron, which was at Binbrook, although initially, we and three others went to place called Brayton and found that the 460 Squadron had moved to Binbrook two weeks earlier [slight laugh] but eventually, we were taken there over, stayed there overnight and then taken to Binbrook, and I was there for a bit, six months, mainly repairing aircraft, until I got a call to go to the Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer. I, after I’d passed out from there, I was posted to heavy conversion unit at [pause] Winthorpe and I was, I crewed up with an otherwise all-Australian crew, and one thing that happened there was – this was on Stirlings – on the first pilot’s [pause] flight by himself without an instructor, we couldn’t get the wheels down, and it was my job to wind them down, which I did successfully, but the port undercarriage wouldn’t lock, so we were asked to fly to Woodbridge, you heard of it? It was placed where they had especially long, long runways and also facilities for dealing with crashed aircraft. Well, we duly got, would crashed, Woodbridge, crashed, ah, landed, but the port undercarriage gave way and we spun ‘round, no-one was hurt, and the instructor came down immediately and made my pilot fly back. Other than that, that, everything was okay, and we went to the Lancaster flying school, and eventually landed up at 467 Squadron, which was then at Wadd – Waddington. The, ah, yes, on the first operation, we were coming back, and the rear gunner suddenly shouted ‘Corkscrew!’, and the pilot immediately took action, dived, and a twin-engined aircraft overtook us and flew off in the distance, we didn’t see it again, but he initially, he shot at us, and a bullet went through the rear gunner’s turret and his clothing and cut off his heating supply and he was very aggrieved about that because it got a bit cold! [slight laugh] Anyway, we got back safely. Then, on the [pause] yes, the eleventh operation, it was a daylight one at Trossy Saint Maximin, the, it was a storage site for V1s, and we had done the bombing round and the mid upper shouted, ‘There’s a Lanc above us just opened his bomb doors!’ Before we could do anything, we heard two thumps, one was louder than the other, and a bomb went through the port wing, took away the undercarriage and the – shut off the engine, so I, well, I, I had to keep a look-out because the, I’m sure the wing was mov – waving more than it should do, anyway, we, with three engines, we got left behind. At one stage, this was over France, the rear gunner said ‘There’s two single-engined aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter,’ he said to the upper gunner, ‘I’ll take the first, you take the second,’ but seconds later, which seemed hours, he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires,’ [slight laugh] and one of them escorted us back to the coast and we decided, or at least the pilot decided, to land at Wittering, which, at that time, had a grass runway, and we’d landed there and he got told off for making a big groove in their run – runway. So, but that was the, really, the main thing that happened there. Then, on the sixteenth operation, or after the sixteenth operation, we were posted to 97 Squadron, the Pathfinder Squadron. After the war, I had some correspondence from a pilot’s son, this was well after the war, and in it was a cutting from a newspaper which a pilot had a long [?] talk with a reporter, and he said then, whether it was true or not, that he actually volunteered to become Pathfinders because of the increase in pay, but I don’t know if that’s true or not, but all the crew joined him and we went on to the 97 Squadron, but nothing really much happened there, we were quite successful in getting back what with [?] the time, and in the end we managed forty-four operations altogether. [Pause] Well, after the war finished, we were sent on end-of-tour leave because we’d practically finished the second tour, and, but the rest of the crew were all recalled before I was, to go off back to Australia, so I never really had a chance to say a proper goodbye, but after that [unclear], they were, we were given opportunities to choose what we wanted to do; I chose a radar mechanic’s course because it was a nice long one and sounded interesting, that was at Yatesbury, and I eventually completed the course, was posted to West Ruislip, where I was put in an office and didn’t any, do any radar mechanicking! [laughs] And, but I was fortunate that I was able to live out, live at home, ‘cause my parents at Kingsbury, and commuted until I got my demob, which was six weeks or so later, I’m not sure of the actual date, and so, that is my war service.
NM: Okay, can I take you back to your days in Halton?
HK: Yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about your days training as a fitter.
HK: Well, we were lost in [?], up the hill on one side of the main road, and every morning, we walked down, or marched down, to the, the workshops on the other side of the main road. That, that was about all, except that there was one amusing instance; because there, there were no youngsters there at the time, they had some drums which they thought could be used, and they asked for volunteers to train as, as drummers to help us down the march. It, they got instructions, that went off quite reasonably until the instructor thought, the, the bandmaster or whoever it was, thought we could practise by ourselves. Now, one of the chaps was actually a drummer in a small group, and he decided to invent a, a rhythm, which wasn’t the one that we were taught, and it went – oh, how did it go? Anyway, it was the first time that we did it, we, it was a conga rhythm [laughs], I think it’s the first and only time that a squad’s been conga’d down to the workshops! [laughs] But, apart from that, Halton was quite reasonably enjoyable.
NM: And was it while you were at Halton, or was it while you were at Binbrook on 460 Squadron, that you volunteered to become a flight engineer?
HK: It was while we were at Halton we were asked if we would volunteer, yes.
NM: So you first of all went off to Binbrook on 460 Squadron?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You first of all went to 460 Squadron?
HK: 460 Squadron, yeah.
NM: At Binbrook. Tell me a little bit about, about Binbrook.
HK: Well, then again, it was for, fortunately a, a peacetime station, so we were quite comfortably billeted. Well, that, that, of course, was an Australian squadron as well, so I, I did quite well in knowing the Australians. Each morning, went to the hangars and carried out any repairs and inspections that were necessary, quite enjoyed that, really. Yes, there was a sergeant there, Australian sergeant, apparently he was colour blind, and he, he was telling me that initially, he, he was asked to put camouflage on an aircraft, and when his instructor saw it, he said ‘If you could see that as I could see it, you’d have a fit!’ [Laughs] Yeah, but that, that, sorry, he was quite, quite a good chap [unclear], but –
NM: So, you went from Binbrook to Saint Athans to train -
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: As a flight engineer.
HK: That’s right.
NM: Describe your training.
HK: I, actually, initially, there are few of us, instead of given instructions on a Lancaster, we were started to give us instructions on a York aircraft, but I think it was decided that that sort of job would be given to people who’d already been flying, so we then transferred and did the rest of the course on, on Lancasters. It was [pause] well, was quite enjoyable, I can’t say that there were any real troubles there. [Pause] I’m sorry, I –
NM: That’s fine, that’s okay.
HK: Unless there’s something specific, it’s difficult to remember.
NM: Right, okay, no, that’s absolutely fine, that’s fine. And you, how long did you spend in Saint Athan training, and what type of year was it, and time of year?
HK: It was in December, it would have been ’43, and we were there ‘til about May, I think, in ’44, and then we went to, as I said, to train, initially on Stirlings, before going onto Lancasters and then the squadron.
NM: So you crewed up at the OCU at Winthorpe, did you say?
HK: Yes.
NM: How did the crewing up process go? How did you end up with the crew that you ended up with?
HK: Well, it was just the usual way, and, in the RAF, from, we were in a large hall, and Bill Ryan, the, came up to me and said, would I like to join his crew? And he came, well, then, he introduced, introduced me to the rest, and we got on quite well.
NM: So you were the last to join the crew, were you?
HK: Yes.
NM: And were they an all-Australian crew?
HK: All-Australian, yeah.
NM: And you were the only Englishman there?
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: So, why do you think he asked you? Why do you think he asked you?
HK: I have no idea! [laughs] Perhaps I was the last one, I don’t know, but we got on quite well, actually. I was the youngest, Bill Ryan was twenty-eight, I think. [Pause] The [pause] bomb aimer came from Queensland, he was about thirty-three, wireless operator was not much older than I was, I, I did have pictures of them [sound of leafing through pages].
NM: We can come onto that afterwards, if you want.
HK: Afterwards, yeah. [leafing sounds continue] Give some names.
NM: Let’s go through their names on the record and we can look at the photographs after the interview.
HK: Yeah, right.
NM: So, you go through the names.
HK: Hmm, yes.
NM: Talk, go through the names and describe the names.
HK: Yes, well, there was Bill Ryan, Les Sabine, the navigator, he came from New South Wales, as did Johnny Nichols, the wireless operator, and Jim McPhee was bomb aimer, Norm Johnstone, the mid upper gunner, and myself, and then there was Jim Newing, but we always called him Bert so we didn’t get mixed up with Jim McPhee, the bomb aimer, he was the rear gunner, he came from Perth in western Australia, and, although I lost touch with the crew after the war, some fifty years later, I and my wife went to Perth, and I looked up the telephone directory, there was H.W. Newing, which was his name, and the telephone, and I rang up on the off chance and said ‘Have you ever been to England?’ and he said ‘Yes, who’s speaking?’ I said ‘Harold Kirby’ and he immediately said ‘Oh, our flight engineer!’ [Slight laugh] And he was able to come to the hotel and we had quite a long chat, unfortunately, we had to go off the following day, but by then, I had his address and telephone number, and we went back to Perth all summer, few years later, and he came and took us to meet his wife and have lunch, and so, that, that was very nice. Unfortunately, he’s passed away.
NM: Okay, sad to hear that. So, you went to Lancaster flying school, you say, after you, your?
HK: Yes, at Syerston, that was.
NM: That was, okay, at Syerston. And how long were you there for?
HK: Oh, just a matter of a week or so, I think. I don’t, I can’t remember that.
NM: So, you then joined 467 Squadron at Waddington?
HK: That’s right.
NM: Tell me about squadron life in 467, what was that like?
HK: What was that like? I think I was glad I’d been to 460 Squadron and got used to a lot of the Australians, so it didn’t come as a bit of a shock, but [pause] apart from those two instances that I mentioned, I think we were quite fortunate, getting away unscathed.
NM: So, can you describe general operations, then, on 467 at Waddington?
HK: Well, I, the pilot and navigator, this before an operation, they had a, an initial briefing, and then after that, the rest of the crew joined them to have a general briefing. We were – then we all had to get ready for going off, we had a, a meal beforehand. Coming back, we were debriefed, and contrary to, contrary to what other, I’ve read about other squadrons, we never got rum or anything like that, we just got coffee, and then we went to bed and waited for the next operation. I do remember that, on one occasion, I slept for about eighteen hours non-stop, virtually, that was after two or three night operations on the trot.
NM: So, when you found you were being posted to Pathfinders at –
HK: Yes.
NM: - Coningsby, at 97 Squadron, what was your feeling?
HK: Really, nothing much, we, I didn’t know much about them, and I just wanted to keep with the rest of the crew, suppose.
NM: So, was – how did Coningsby and the Pathfinders differ from a main force station at Waddington and 467?
HK: I can’t say that it was terribly different, different. We were quite fortunate in, again, that, as Waddington was, and Binbrook beforehand and then Coningsby, they were all peacetime stations and we were very comfortably housed, not like some squadrons who had to cope with a lot of mud [slight laugh]! Oh, yes, at Coningsby, we had to be capable of taking over some of the other tasks, such as, I was asked to keep the aircraft on the straight and level for a while, presumably in case the pilot couldn’t hold it, which, that was what I did, although the rear gunner said it was more like a switchback than straight and level [slight laugh]! Then I had to learn the Morse code and do some gunnery practice, and also bomb aiming, so that, that was quite a change. In fact, towards the end of the war, the normal bomb aimer went and helped the navigator with the screens that they had then, and I did the bomb aiming, so it, that was a change. [Pause] Can’t say that there’s much more to add.
NM: So the extra training that you had, then, for, for flying training for straight and level flying and for gunnery and Morse code and bomb aiming, what, how did those extra training comes about?
HK: I remember the bomb, bomb aiming, there was a sort of a, a map that sort of moved on the floor and we were practising sort of with the bomb sights, and then also, in, there was a bombing range at Wainfleet in the Wash, I think I did a, a few goes at that, and then as far as gunnery, we dropped a flare in the water and I was in the nose turret and had a go and see if I could shoot that, and so [pause] I do remember once, I think this was at, at Waddington, for some reason, the brakes failed as we were taxiing ‘round, and the pilot was able to steer by controlling the engines. The normal practice when you start off is to keep the brakes on and push the throttle forward to get maximum speed, power, and then suddenly take the brakes off and shoot off. Well, this time, we had no time to do that, we got slowly to the take-off point and got the green lights and pushed the throttles forward and, fortunately [laughs], took off okay! And then, again, we thought we’d go back to Woodbridge, which we did, and I repaired the brakes and we got back to base. [Pause]
NM: What did you feel about the different roles that you were asked to play, then, between flight engineer and gunnery and bomb aiming?
HK: Well, I quite enjoyed it, the change, yes.
NM: So your crew, altogether, did forty-four operations?
HK: Yes.
NM: And you all stayed together for the whole time?
HK: No, all except the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator, they decided they wouldn’t go on to the second tour, and so we had spare chaps to do that, but I can’t really remember much about them.
NM: How did the crew feel about losing two stalwarts and getting two replacements?
HK: Well, don’t think we were terribly happy, but that was, you know, if they didn’t want to go on, well, that was it. I preferred to carry on rather than go to a training squadron because that could be a bit dicey sometimes.
NM: What would you say about life in Bomber Command overall?
HK: Overall, I had quite a good time, really. [Pause] No, I don’t think I would have chosen anything else, I was quite happy with what I was doing. Bit dicey at times, but that was it.
NM: Do you keep, keep in touch at all with, or – you’ve spoken about the rear gunner you’ve met in Australia, do you keep in touch with squadron associations, reunions?
HK: Oh, I, I kept up with the squadron association, and Path – not, yes, Pathfinder Association, while it was still in force, and then I belonged to the Aircrew Association, we had monthly meetings, and –
NM: Were they locally here?
HK: That was at, that’s at Hemel Hempstead, but there’s another ex-Pathfinder who flew in Mosquitos who lived in Hatch End, and we take it in turns to drive to Hemel, but we were quite fortunate, really, because a lot of the branches had to close because lack of members, but as it’s open to post-war fliers as well, we’ve got quite a few in, in our association, and they help to keep the thing going, in fact, I think all the, apart from one, are post-war fliers, or the, I’m trying to say, the people that control, the – sorry, I, I get mixed up with words sometimes [laughs]! Yeah, but anyway, we keep going.
NM: Okay, that’s fair [?]. How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the war?
HK: Not very well; in fact, I think in the end, we were quite happy to get the memorial. [Pause] Lot of work has been done to get it organised.
NM: Okay, shall we call it a day there?
HK: Hmm?
NM: Shall we finish the interview there? Are you happy with that, or was there anything else you’d like to talk about with your time in Bomber Command?
HK: I think I’ve covered most things. [Pause] I was telling you about my two friends that joined up before I did, both got shot down, one unfortunately on the Nuremburg raid, and the other one, who was on Stirlings, got shot down over France but parachuted to safety and was looked after by the French until he was – the Americans came. But, so, I was quite fortunate, really.
NM: So, did you find out about your friend’s loss during the war, or was it after the, only after the war, did you find?
HK: It was during the war, yes, I kept in touch with my particular school friend’s mother or parents and heard when he’d got shot down; they didn’t know what had happened to him at the time, of course, yes. [Pause] So I did keep up with that school friend after he’d come back from – to England. One peculiar thing happened was, at the time before he got shot down, he, he’d sent me a picture of him and a bomb aimer, his bomb aimer, and I was showing this to my crew, and my bomb aimer said ‘I know that chap, we’ve been doing training together in Canada!’ But he stayed on to do some training others and so he, he didn’t come, get to this country until well after my school friend’s bomb aimer had come here, but both the bomb aimer and my friend were the only two that managed to get out of the aircraft when it was shot.
NM: And you finished up doing a radar mechanic’s course?
HK: Yes.
NM: After the war.
HK: Ah, yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about that.
HK: Well, that was quite enjoyable, learning how the radar worked, and after the war, instead of going back – well, I did go back for a while to my original job, which was in an accounts department, in an accounts department in an electric supplier, I decided I wanted to do something a bit more technical, and the GEC at the time were advertising for people for their laboratories, and I went along and got a job in their patents department, and trained – well, I did evening classes, got BSc, then went on to do the patent agent’s exams and stayed there until I retired, retired in ’83 but went on and did five more years part-time, until they moved the whole place to Chelmsford, I decided that was enough [slight laugh].
NM: And you’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Yes.
NM: Okay, I think that’s probably a very good note to finish on.
HK: [Laughs] Yes!
[Recording beeps: interview paused and restarted]
NM: Just continuing the interview with Mr Kirby.
HK: Yes, there were a couple of instances which I remember now, not actually connected with the enemy, but we were due to fly to Munich to bomb something at Munich, and we had to, we were rooted over the Alps in moonlight, which was a beautiful sight to see, and then another occasion, we flew to one of the eastern countries, oh, I could tell you exactly where it is [sound of leafing through pages], and we had to fly over Sweden at the time, and, yes. No, I can’t [pause as HK continues leafing through pages] Ah, Politz. Yes, I had to fly over Sweden, which was quite exciting ‘cause it was all lit up, they did shoot, but we were told that not to worry, they weren’t going to shoot at us. [Laughs] But those are just two instances I happen to remember.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Kirby. One
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
Format
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00:42:44 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKirbyH150710, PKirbyH1511
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Kirby joined up the Royal Air Force encouraged by two friends, but ended up training as a flight mechanic at RAF Halton on medical grounds. Harold became them airframe fitter, volunteered as a flight engineer, passed the physical but was then posted as a fitter at RAF Binbrook for six months with 460 Squadron. He was then at RAF Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer, then to RAF Winthorpe Heavy Conversion Unit with an all-Australian aircrew. Harold recollects a crash landing at RAF Woodbridge, followed by attending Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Syerston. He was then posted to 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Discusses bombing operations over France V-1 weapons sites, a bomb falling through a wing, and crash landing at RAF Wittering. Harold was eventually posted to 97 Pathfinder Squadron at RAF Coningsby, owing to his array of skills and multiple qualifications. Discusses post war training as radar mechanic, employment at the General Electric Company and reunions with his Australian aircrew.
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Language
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eng
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
crash
crewing up
fitter airframe
flight engineer
flight mechanic
forced landing
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mechanics airframe
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Halton
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Wittering
RAF Woodbridge
recruitment
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/620/8889/PPaineGH1616.2.jpg
c7fb40cc6f0bfbe3e8dfa9843065b6cb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/620/8889/APaineGH160726.1.mp3
924472391843693055dda8d9ecb5466d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Paine, Geoff
Geoffrey Hugh Paine
G H Paine
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Paine, GH
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Geoffrey Paine (1925 - 2019, 1894345, Royal Air Force) documents and photographs. He flew as a pilot with 100 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Geoffrey Paine and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-20
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and it’s the 26th July 2012 and I’m speaking with Mr & Mrs Paine, Geoffrey Paine the pilot and we’re in Croxley Green and we’re going to talk about the life and times of Geoff in the RAF and other activities. So, what are your earliest recollections of life Geoff?
GP: My earliest recollections of life? Oh, when I was a small boy do you mean? [Laughs] I lived at Gerrards Cross which is just down the road from here so I’m a, almost lived here all my life, yes always have, telephone [telephone ringing] always have done to be frank. [Telephone ringing]
CB: I’ll stop it just for a moment.
PP: I’ll go and get it.
CB: It gets.
PP: That was timed wasn’t it?
CB: I was going to say, yeah.
GP: That’s better, yes.
CB: Yes.
GP: So in Gerrards Cross I went to school first of all at —
PP: Not leaving a message, so can’t be important.
GP: I went to school first at High Wycombe Royal Grammar School and then I went down to Cornwall and went to Falmouth Grammar School, and of course when I was there the war was on and I volunteered for the RAF, I was in the ATC, Air Training Corps, down there I was one, actually joined the Air Training Corps when it was probably first formed quite early on and I volunteered for royal air force and as soon as I was eighteen I was whipped into it. [Laughs] No trouble at all. And then now where did I go first? Oh my goodness me I went to London first and then I was sent down, we had about, when I signed up in London, we had about three or four days in London and then I went to Aberystwyth, and we were billeted on, in hotels on the sea front at Aberystwyth and we used to have our lessons in the University Aber, Aberystwyth and our drill on the sea front of course, there was a great lovely big sea front there you could drill on, hard standing and then I volunteered of course for the RAF and my first recollections really I went to grading school, didn’t I, I think, I think perhaps it was grading school, No 6, yes, of course I went to an ITW first an initial training wing and then I, was on 20th September, at Aberystwyth, it was a nice place to be, billeted in the Belle Vue hotel, little hotel we were all in hotels there, we did all our drill on the sea front and we used their swimming pool, we had to go up to the swimming pool on a very cold morning, and the first time we went there we were all non-swimmers, we had to climb to the top diving board and jump in, and we were fished out with long poles, and there was one chap couldn’t do it, ground staff, [laughs] he wasn’t allowed to join aircrew, amazing. I felt sorry for him because he was very, completely gobsmacked he was. It took a bit to jump in because they’re quite high the top boards, and they had this great big long pole, and you grabbed hold of it and they pulled you in and you soon learnt to swim, I mean within a couple of days you were swimming the length of the pool so it was a good way to start, I think.
CB: Yes.
GP: A good way to start that. That was Aberystwyth, gosh, what did I do then?
PP: Well you’ve got it all written down old man, use your notes, use your notes!
CB: I’m just going to stop it a moment.
PP: Yes, go on.
GP: Elementary Flying Training School, Ansty, I went first, I did my first solo at six and a quarter hours, which was quite early I think ‘cause me instructor was leaping about, he’d beaten everybody else getting me in the air [Laughs]. Then I went to ITW at Cambridge just for a short time this was, they moved you about just to fill up time. Then I went to 100 Sqn, RAF Waltham, and there I packed thousands of blooming incendiary bombs. They were going on big raids then from Waltham and it was a continuous packing of incendiary bombs, thousands they, the whole place, must have put Germany on fire I think. Then what happened then? Bomb damage repairs Hornchurch, [?] where did I get to? Heaton Park, 18th of July ’44 and then Hornchurch, bomb damage repairs, and then Kew, bomb damage repairs, and then Hendon, again bomb damage repairs, and then I was put on a boat, the ‘Andes’ to go to Cape Town and from Cape Town you go on that beautiful train all the way up to Bulewao, I think it took three days, two days and a night I think and we went to RAF Guinea Fowl to start our elementary flying training on Cornells and then from there I went to RAF Ternhill to fly on Harlands, and then I think it was getting a bit near the end of the war. Twenty-five, five, forty-five, oh my giddy aunt yes.
CB: OK, we’ll stop again a mo’. Could you just explain the bomb damage repair you were doing, so what was the scene?
GP: Well we, there were about I think twenty, twenty-five of us, and we had a chiefie, you know an RAF sergeant.
CB: Flight sergeant, um.
GP: Nice old chap, and a lorry and when a bomb had dropped and blew all the tiles of roofs, blew the windows in we were piled off, given a place to go and there we had all the necessary stuff to, yellow calico stuff, to nail to the window to keep the wind out because all the glass had gone, we put stuff on the roofs, if there were tiles we put tiles, if not we put tarpaulins on the roofs just to make the place habitable, habitable after the bombing, that’s what happened then.
CB: So some of this was in East London?
GP: Yes it was, it was in East and West, and West London too, yes.
CB: And what about Hendon, that’s an airfield, so?
GP: Yes.
CB: What happened there?
GP: I went to Hendon just for a few days. They’d had a, a doodlebug had landed in the evening when they were all having showers and things right onto an accommodation block.
CB: An RAF billet block?
GP: And we had to clear the site which meant clearing human remains as well, it wasn’t very nice at all. It meant shovelling bricks, shovelling it on a lorry and off it all went, that was it. A complete barrack block got a direct hit, unbelievable really they picked that one building out on the station.
CB: Amazing. And what with the human remains this was a sensitive thing but what did you do with them?
GP: Well, you find yourself a hand with a bit of the, bit of the —
CB: The bone, yes.
GP: A bit of bone sticking out, you didn’t know whose it was.
CB: No.
GP: You just put it in a pile, no way of finding out at all.
CB: So what did they then do with those?
GP: I think they were buried somewhere ‘cause they didn’t know whose they were. They knew who’d died in the blocks obviously but the remains you couldn’t really match them up, impossible. Didn’t find any heads or anything, mostly arms and legs and bits and pieces like that. Not very pleasant but it was as if you were in another place, it didn’t mean much because there was no body with it, just an arm or a leg, wasn’t very nice at all. Oh gosh what did I do after that?
CB: So going on from there you were on the ‘Andes’ yes?
GP: Yes.
CB: Which route did that take and how long?
GP: Oh, it was lovely we called in on the way, it was a posh boat the ‘Andes’, a cruise ship and we called into, what’s it called half way down?
CB: You didn’t go via Canada?
GP: No, we didn’t, no. [unclear]
CB: You went in the west coast of Africa did you?
GP: Of Africa, I’m trying to think.
CB: OK, and who were the people being transported, were they only air force or?
GP: Only air force yeah, I’m trying to pick it up on here. All here, near Gwelo. Yes, that’s right. It was back a bit, arrived at Cape Town.
CB: Yeah.
GP: We went on this nice boat to Cape Town on 1st March.
CB: 1945?
GP: Then we were heading for Southern Rhodesia.
CB: Yes.
GP: I think it took two and a half days to get to Rhodesia.
CB: OK.
GP: Two days and a night. Each carriage had bunks to sleep six so we arrived in Bulewao on 4th March and spent twelve days there to become acclimatised, being so high up above sea level I think it was, I think it was about six or seven thousand feet above sea level.
CB: How did they acclimatise you?
GP: Well just a matter of —
CB: Exercise or?
GP: Matter of doing a few marches, they used to take us out and drop us out on the bush and we had to find our way back and you had to be very careful because if you didn’t pull your socks up or your trousers down you got ticks sticking in your knees all over the place because they used to be on the undergrowth and they’d burrow into your skin.
CB: Yes.
GP: And —.
CB: How did you get them out?
GP: With a cigarette if you had a cigarette, you’d put a bit of heat behind them and they reversed their way out, that was better than doing it any other way otherwise they left the beak in there didn’t they you see? So you got a cigarette behind them and they soon came in reverse [laughs]. Yeah, oh gosh.
CB: And how did the flying go when you were there, you were flying Cornells?
GP: Cornells, well the weather of course, every day was like this, beautiful weather, beautiful weather, lovely flying, and it was, the airfield was out, well out in the countryside and we did a lot of low level flying. We used to beat up the native villages, I can see them all now cowering underneath their little shelters. They lived in thatched roof, you know rough little places, we were pretty horrible to them really. [Laughs]. We used them as a target, we didn’t hit anybody but we used to go in very low and —
CB: Yeah.
GP: And then what else, I think, the war finished and we were shuffled off down to Cape Town and we were there for several weeks, we had a wild time because we climbed all the, well I climbed all the mountains. As you know Cape Town goes all the way round, I climbed all the mountains there, I used to live on the mountain. We’d go to Muizenberg and we’d learned to surf, lovely surf at Muizenberg and the people there were ex-pats who’d moved out there before the war and they were very nice, if they saw you coming down the mountainside they’d call you in and you’d have coffee and cakes and goodness knows what, they looked after you which was jolly nice. We were there for some time before they shipped us home again you see, it was really like a nice holiday really.
CB: What was the ship like that you returned on?
GP: A bit rougher than the one we went out on, we went on the ‘Andes’, came back on the ‘Reina del Pacifico’, which was a bit of, I think the ball had blew up in Belfast when we came back, it was a real old tramp steamer, [chuckles] packed with RAF people coming home.
CB: So we’re talking about May 1945?
GP: May ’45 yes.
CB: And you then went where?
GP: I went to, can you find it below, yes this is it here, yes. I went to RAF Ternhill, on the 25th May we went to Ternhill.
CB: What did you do there?
GP: I’m trying to think, um.
CB: That would be where you the advanced training. [Dialogue confused with interviewer].
GP: Flying Harvards. Yes I was flying Harvards there. I went solo in three hours forty minutes which was quite good and received my pilot wings and along came VJ day, got my pilot wings there and then a victory in Japan day and the second world war —
CB: Yeah.
GP: All flying training ceased.
CB: OK.
GP: We all returned to Cape Town to await our boat home to England, four wonderful weeks in Cape Town climbing the mountains.
CB: So that’s what you did earlier?
GP: Yeah.
CB: So if I just interrupt you again?
GP: Yes.
CB: We come to the end of the war but in the war you were in the Air Training Corps but you were also in the Observer Corps were you?
GP: Yes, no.
CB: That was later?
GP: That was later.
CB: OK, so we’ll come to that in a minute.
GP: Yes.
CB: OK I’m just going to stop for a moment. We’re just doing a correction here, because it’s not Ternhill in England, it’s RAF Thornhill, before coming back. Let me just.
GP: Yes, we went down to —
CB: So after Guinea Fowl then where did you go?
GP: We went down to Thornhill.
CB: Right.
GP: Another RAF training school, No22 Flying training School at Thornhill, and on, along came VJ Day, that was on Harvards, but along came VJ Day and all flying ceased and we were just enjoying ourselves, put on a train and sent back to Cape Town. And when we got to Cape Town there was no boat. We saw the boat going out, we missed the boat, and so we had about four or five weeks in Cape Town to do what we wanted so we climbed the mountains, I did, I climbed up the mountains went all along the back behind Cape Town [Colossal?] and then down over, it was interesting, coming down Oloch[?] you had to get down on to the main road if you wanted to get back to where camp was and there were all these people who, ex-pats who’d built lovely houses there, obviously moneyed people, and they used to welcome us with open arms, ‘Do come in’, used to open a little gate and they’d give you cakes and tea, coffee and drinks if you wanted it. We had rather a nice time, four or five weeks there, before we came back on the boat to come home. And we got on this tramp steamer I called it, ‘Reina del Pacifico’ it was a rough old boat, a lot of people on it, very much overloaded, I’ve got pictures of it here we have, we kept. We stopped at Mafeking going down through, that was interesting coming down to South Africa and —
CB: On the train?
GP: Yes, I got off the train there ‘cause the train was there for a while. They were changing engines so I said to the driver ‘How long are they going to be?’ he said ‘Half hour, three quarters of an hour’ so I went down to have a look at Mafeking and there, there’s Rhodes.
CB: Statue?
GP: Cecil Rhodes statue. Which was quite interesting.
CB: Yes, yes.
GP: And this was when we spent time down to Cape Town and I spent my time climbing mountains there.
CB: So on this boat then, ‘cause you’re going back on the boat.
GP: Yes, back on the boat.
CB: What was that like?
GP: Yeah.
CB: What was that like?
GP: A bit overcrowded.
CB: Um.
GP: But we came out of Cape Town and then we came up the coast and we called in at St Helena which was interesting because Napoleon had been banished there.
CB: Yes.
GP: And the people came out, and I remember buying my mother a tea cosy made out of local raffia or something. [Laughs]. Had quite a good time really. Now what else happened, what happened after that, oh gosh?
CB: So then where did you dock when you got back?
GP: Liverpool.
CB: Um. And where did they send you when you returned?
GP: Trying to think, Liverpool.
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo’ hang on.
PP: Dad.
CB: Right so you’ve landed at Liverpool then what?
GP: Yes, we went to, went down to West Kirby in October ’45. I don’t think we did very much there at all, we were just swanning around, didn’t know what to do with us and then they sent us to Stansted. Stansted was an airfield that had closed and we were put in the hangars and lorry loads of equipment from closing airfields came in and what we did we built little bivouac’s underneath some of this equipment and hid there, nobody knew we were there, otherwise we were given a job. So, we were there for about four or five weeks, hiding away [laughter] otherwise you would, they just gave you something to keep you out of mischief I suppose really. And then 28th November ‘45 I went to number, Bircham Newton, No27 FSTS Bircham Newton, and then I went to Little Rissington, 6FS, solo flying training school at Little Rissington on the 18th January ’46, then I went to Ternhill where I got my wings on 3rd September ’46, quite a long process wasn’t it?.
CB: What were you flying then?
GP: Harvards. That was in Harvards.
CB: So all three of those you were flying Harvards were you?
GP: Harvards yeah.
CB: Right.
GP: [Indistinct]. Kirton-in-Lindsay, oh I flew everything then, doesn’t go on there. I flew Oxfords, Hansons.
CB: So how did you convert to twin engine?
GP: No problem at all.
CB: Yeah, but where?
GP: Gosh, where’s my logbook, where’s my logbook?
CB: OK, we’ll look at it in a moment.
GP: I can see in my logbook —
CB: But you had a good time with these other ones, flying single?
GP: Oh yes, excellent time.
CB: Yeah OK, we’ll stop there for a moment. So, from Kirton-in-Lindsay which is in Lincolnshire you went down to Oakington?
GP: Oakington yes.
CB: And what did you do there?
GP: Oakington? I think I did a little bit of local flying.
CB: On what?
GP: What was that in? Gosh, um, has it got it there Pete?
CB: But what was happening at Oakington which is in Cambridgeshire?
GP: Yes it was a flying training school and um —
CB: For? ‘Cause you went on to Yorks there?
GP: Yes, I went onto Yorks there. Gosh it’s difficult to think of it all now.
CB: OK.
GP: How it all pieced together now.
CB: OK, well never mind. So you went onto Yorks?
GP: Yeah.
CB: And what position were you flying there?
GP: Second pilot on Yorks.
CB: But you’d never been converted to twin-engine or four-engine?
GP: No, no, I just sat in the right-hand seat and enjoyed myself.
CB: Yes. And what did the captain get you to do as the second pilot?
GP: Well, keep an eye open, [laughs], I used to go back, I used to leave my seat and go back in the back and fill in the logs ‘cause you always had this great big log to fill in. I used to keep the logs in the aircraft and then when I finished that I’d sit back next to the pilot again.
CB: Yeah.
GP: But it was a bit of a swansong really.
CB: And the pilot what was his experience before being on Yorks?
GP: Well, he’d had been on Lancasters.
CB: Had he?
GP: Yeah.
CB: And a Lancaster only had one pilot so he was quite happy?
GP: Flt Lt Horry, ‘Horrible Horry’ they called him.
CB: Did they?
GP: And he flew the last York into the museum.
CB: At Hendon?
GP: At Hendon, yes. Horry, I got on well with him, they used to call him ‘Horrible Horry’ but he wasn’t, quite a nice chap, I had a very easy time.
CB: And where did you go in the Yorks?
GP: Oh, we went route flying. You flew across alongside the Andes, the um, —
CB: So you went down through France?
GP: Yeah, through France, and then you turned left along the Mediterranean and you called in at various places.
CB: Would you stop at Orange?
GP: I stopped at several places there.
CB: In France?
GP: And what amused me at the RAF stations there in North Africa, we still had German prisoners of war, and the German prisoners of war would be given a big stick to keep the natives from coming in and robbing the things on the station, that was his job, yes, he had a big pole and that would keep the natives out, and he used it too [laughs]. ‘Cause they’d come, they’d pinch anything, they’d pinch anything. Oh dear, yeah.
CB: So your re-fuelling stops would be how long?
GP: Oh, sometimes we’d have a night, sometimes we wouldn’t have a re-fuelling on the gain, and we’d get as far as India, go up to Karachi and we used to land at Suez down the bottom there, and I used to love it there ‘cause you could hire a boat there and go sailing on the big lakes down the bottom there, and I used to go up to Karachi, we used to fly up to Karachi.
CB: Did you fly via Aiden?
GP: No, I don’t think I went to.
CB: So you went to Iraq did you, through Habbanya?
GP: Yeah, yeah Habbanya. Cor, it’s all a bit of mist at the moment.
CB: That’s OK and this was doing what?
GP: I was second pilot.
CB: Yeah, but what was the ‘plane doing?
GP: Yorks. Carrying freight.
CB: Freight.
GP: Freight, yeah we didn’t carry, well we carried a few, odd people who wanted to fly back, in fact we brought my brother back from, on one occasion, from Cairo, he came back in the aircraft with us.
CB: And what, what, you delivered freight to Karachi?
GP: Yes.
CB: What did you bring back?
GP: Freight came back as well. I can’t tell you what came back I suppose they were packing up the stations, and the important stuff we would fly back home. Then they moved us from, God where we flying from then?
CB: ‘Cause we’re talking now about the time of partition aren’t we?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Between Pakistan and India?
GP: It’s all in the distant past now for me.
CB: We’ll stop there a mo’. So, this delivery system you were operating was from RAF Lyneham?
GP: Yes.
CB: In Wiltshire.
GP: That’s right.
CB: In the aircraft could you just describe what was the crew? This is a transport version of the Lancaster so what did it carry in crew terms?
GP: We had a first pilot, we had me second pilot, and I was sitting in the right hand seat really as a lookout in a way, and we had a wireless operator and a navigator, that’s all we had and we’d fly down, call in at various places in North Africa.
CB: But you had an engineer?
GP: Flight engineer.
CB: Yes, flight engineer.
GP: We’d stop at various places in North Africa and unload freight, or load freight, a lot of freight came home because they were closing the stations when we came back, they were loaded with all sorts of stuff, stations, getting rid of it, getting it home.
CB: What sort of accommodation did you get on the route? So your first stop is Castel Benito?
GP: Well I’m thinking about Malta, ‘cause we went into Malta, I went into Malta.
CB: Yeah.
GP: I had nice accommodation there, very, very hot and humid in Malta, I didn’t like it at all when I was there, very humid, terrible. In fact one day I spent the whole day sitting on the edge of the shower it was so blimin’ humid, it was awful. On other occasions Malta was very nice, we just happened to get the weather that’s all. I did nothing but act as second pilot really.
CB: In North Africa, were you in tents or were they proper buildings?
GP: Oh I’m trying to think, trying to think. No, we were in proper buildings, we were in proper buildings, hard to place it now.
CB: Um.
GP: Yes, we were in proper buildings there, I don’t remember being in tents at all, I don’t remember being in tents.
CB: And how busy was the route? And you’re the lookout how often did you see?
GP: Well it was pretty busy because really because there was a lot of freight coming back. Some, little bit going out, but a lot of freight coming back from closing stations and so forth, so we used to have a lot of freight on-board. I would be up with the pilot and then once we got airborne I’d go down the back and fill in the log, we had a great big log to fill in, what we’d got on board and everything else, I used to do, keep the log. Then come back home, it’s all misty parts [laughs] —
CB: Yeah, yeah. So after flying in Yorks without training on twin or multi-engine.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Where did you go after that?
GP: Oh crikey.
CB: Did you go for twin-engine training?
GP: Where’s my logbook?
CB: So you went to Valley?
GP: RAF Valley.
CB: In North Wales?
GP: Yeah North Wales, that’s right it was very nice there.
CB: So what did you do there?
GP: [Laughs] Skive most of the time on the beach. [Laughter] because we had um —
CB: This was September ’46?
GP: The airfield was quite near the beach.
CB: ’47?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Yeah, was nice there. Cor gosh, it’s a job to remember it was a long way back.
CB: But the flying training was twin-engine training was it?
GP: Twin-engine training.
CB: In Oxfords?
GP: In Oxfords and Ansons yeah.
CB: So how did that go?
GP: And Ansons yeah.
CB: How did that go?
GP: It went very well really ‘cause there were a bunch of us, there’s a photograph of us in there I think, all pilots and navigators. Or is it in this one?
CB: Well, we’ll have a look in a minute. And the point of the question is you’d had experience on multi-engine?
GP: Yes.
CB: So I wonder how well that prepared you for twin-engine training?
GP: Fine, ‘cause I went onto Wellingtons.
CB: From?
GP: Middleton St George.
CB: Oh right.
GP: And flying UT navigators, they were all UT navs, I used to end up with sometimes one, sometimes two or three navigators in the back, and a wireless operator. Used to fly every day or every night.
CB: And then you went to Swinderby?
GP: RAF Swinderby.
CB: 201 AFS?
GP: Yes.
CB: So were you instructing there or what were you doing?
GP: What was I doing in Swinderby?
CB: ‘Cause you were on Wellingtons?
GP: Yes.
CB: And you were on familiarisation for a while, but what was the purpose of that?
GP: I did a bit of flying there. Can I have a look at —
CB: Yes, we’ll stop there for a minute. So, you went to Swinderby to the advanced flying school for Wellingtons?
GP: Yes.
CB: Then you went to RAF Topcliffe, which is clearly a nav school and you’re flying on Ansons?
GP: Yes.
CB: So.
GP: I was learning to be a staff pilot then.
CB: Right.
GP: So I could fly anything, Ansons, Oxfords, Wellingtons.
CB: Yes. OK.
GP: Used to mix it up.
CB: Right. So, um, at Topcliffe you were doing what?
GP: Topcliffe?
CB: So this is the No1 Air Navigation School and you’re flying on Ansons so.
GP: I think I was a staff pilot.
CB: You were a staff pilot OK.
GP: Yes.
CB: So you’re flying in an Anson, who else is in the Anson?
GP: Um, wireless operator.
CB: Um.
GP: And probably a training navigator to train, [unclear].
CB: Yeah.
GP: They were UT navigators.
CB: Right.
GP: So they used a couple, they used UT navigators, sometimes two UT navigators and one staff navigator.
CB: OK, who was the instructor?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah, and were you being trained at the same time?
GP: No, I was just flying.
CB: Right, OK, right. So from there you then went onto Wellingtons again?
GP: Wellingtons.
CB: And this time you were at Middleton St George.
GP: Middleton St George, yeah I spent most of my time there then.
CB: So talk us through that, what was that, what were you doing there?
GP: Flying UT navigators all over the place, every day, every night.
CB: Right.
GP: I was a staff pilot there so.
CB: OK.
GP: I had my own wireless operator.
CB: Um.
GP: Forget what he was called now. He’s there somewhere.
CB: But the practicality of it is that that kept you busy for quite some time?
GP: Oh yes it did, until I finished I think.
CB: OK. So, when you, you were the captain of the aircraft, except when you had to be checked out occasionally?
GP: Yes that’s right.
CB: So that takes you to the end of your flying training by which time you’d done eleven hundred hours?
GP: Yes.
CB: So your biggest, where was your biggest hour accumulation, flying hours?
GP: Probably flying out to India.
CB: And on these Wellingtons you put in a few hours?
GP: No that was on, not Lancasters, on —
CB: On the Anson, on the Wellington?
PP: Yorks?
GP: No, Yorks.
CB: Yorks to India. Yeah, no, no, but this.
GP: Second pilot of Yorks.
CB: But at the end you were doing the training of navigators?
GP: I was training, UT navigators, in the back. Usually a staff navigator and UT navigator.
CB: Yeah, at Middleton, OK. ‘Cause you started there at six hundred and eighty four hours, and you finished up with eleven hundred hours.
GP: Yeah.
CB: That was pretty good going.
GP: There was a lot of flying see.
CB: And how did you feel about flying like that?
GP: No problem I loved it, I did, I enjoyed it, I really enjoyed it.
CB: And the navigators were telling you where to go so sometimes it wasn’t right.
GP: Which course to go on. I dozed off one night, I’d been on nights, I dozed off and got a tap on the shoulder, ‘Excuse me sir’.
CB: And to what extent could you fly on auto-pilot, or was it just trimmed for stability?
GP: Oh you could, almost entirely, almost entirely you could fix it.
CB: But you did have auto-pilot?
GP: We had auto-pilot, yeah.
CB: Yeah. How reliable was that?
GP: Very reliable, yeah, very reliable.
CB: So this is how you could catch up on your sleep?
GP: We kept an eye on things, you just sat there, you were just a passenger on the aircraft. Aircraft flew itself really.
CB: Yes. And where were the sorties, because Middleton St George is on the north east, close to the coast, did you fly?
GP: Well we used to come right down over the country, down to the, down to Cornwall and the Isle of Wight and up, up again up the east side, yeah we did all sorts of trips.
CB: By then we’re talking about peace time, so everything’s illuminated so to what extent could you check where you were without the navigator helping you?
GP: Well you could ‘cause you, as a pilot, you kept a check on where you were. You knew what course you were flying, or you knew the main places you could identify on the route and it was normally anti-clockwise, you’d go down across Wales and then across to the east coast then up, nearly always that way round.
CB: Right.
GP: For some reason or another, I don’t know why.
CB: So that was No2 Air Navigation School at Middleton St George?
GP: No2 Air Nav yes.
CB: So you come to the end of your time?
GP: Yes.
CB: What rank are you then?
GP: Pilot three.
CB: Right. As what rank?
GP: Well it’s equivalent to a sergeant pilot really.
CB: Right.
GP: But um.
CB: What had they done to the ranks?
GP: I was a pilot four, that was equivalent to a corporal ‘cause they changed it all you see.
CB: Right.
GP: And when the SWO found out I was still in the sergeants, I’d been in the sergeants mess, but because they changed the ranks he said ‘You can’t come in here now, you’re only a corporal’ but I went to the airmans mess and had a far better time in there I can tell you.
CB: At what stage was that?
GP: God only knows.
CB: Was that close to your leaving the RAF or many years?
GP: Yes a couple of years I think.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Yes, you can see from my logbook.
CB: OK. So, you’ve come to the end of your RAF term, how many years had you signed on for?
GP: Three years and four years reserve I think it was.
CB: Right. So, you came out of the RAF in ’49.
GP: Yes.
CB: What did you then do?
GP: Farming, [laughs], took a farm. Then what did I do then? I went in the Observer Corps didn’t I?
EP: ’61 you went in the Observers.
GP: Royal Observer Corps.
CB: OK, what prompted that?
GP: I became a commander in the Royal Observer Corps and —
EP: You went full time ’66.
GP: What was that darling?
EP: You went full time in ’66.
GP: Yes I went full time in ’66 yes.
CB: Fine. And how long did that last?
Unknown: [Indistinct]
GP: Three years was it?
EP: No until you retired.
GP: Until I retired yeah, yeah.
CB: Aged what?
EP: Sixty.
GP: Sixty, when I was sixty.
CB: And while you were in the Observer Corps what was your task?
GP: What was?
CB: What was your task? What were you doing?
GP: Pilot.
CB: No excuse me, I’ll stop it.
GP: Oh sorry, Observer.
CB: So as part of the history here —
GP: Yes.
CB: How did you come to meet your wife Evelyn?
GP: Well —
CB: And when did you marry?
GP: I met Phillip, her brother, first and we had motorbikes, and he took me home.
CB: What was he doing?
GP: He was um, he was in the RAF still, and I was in the RAF, but he took me home, and I met Evelyn then, and oh gosh, it’s a long story isn’t it?
CB: Go on.
EP: That was in ’45.
GP: ’45. 1945.
EP: When you came back from Rhodesia.
GP: I’d come back all sunburnt from Rhodesia, yeah. [Laughter]. Yeah that right, and we got, we just clicked didn’t we, we just got on so well. I think, never had any arguments.
CB: Well there you are.
GP: And her family were very nice to me, your father was very nice to me. He was a funny old chap her father but he was very nice to me indeed, in fact he gave you away, came up the aisle with you to me.
CB: Lovely. And he was a farmer was he?
GP: Oh no.
CB: Oh no, what did he do?
GP: Well I don’t know, [laughs], practically nothing I think. He’d um —
CB: So when did you marry?
EP: ’48.
GP: 1948. Twenty sixth of August, was it? 26th? 1948. Yeah, and he gave her away.
CB: OK.
GP: Doesn’t sound right somehow does it, how can he give you away?
CB: Well I’ve just done it twice.
GP: Yes.
CB: It relieves the financial pressure you might think.
GP: That’s right, that’s right.
CB: Doesn’t work that way at all.
GP: We’ve always got on, never had any upsets as far as I can remember.
EP: Show you the letter.
CB: I’m just stopping a moment. Now here we have a letter from the Queen which ‘gives her great pleasure to send you her best wishes on your sixty-fifth wedding anniversary on twenty-sixty August 2013’.
GP: We’ve got, we’ve got two haven’t we from the Queen? The other one’s hanging up there behind the lamp.
CB: Yes. That’s really nice.
GP: We’ve met the Queen.
CB: Yes.
GP: She’s very nice.
CB: You went down to Buckingham Palace did you?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Was there a garden party?
GP: Garden party.
CB: How did that go?
GP: We went to the garden party. At one occasion my nephew drove us there and the car conked out going down Whitehall [laughs] and we walked into Buckingham Palace. [Laughter].
EP: But we met her at Bentley Priory, that’s where you met her ‘cause we went to [?]
GP: Oh yes, I was in charge at Bentley Priory so I had to meet her didn’t I?
CB: Right. So now what we need to do if we may is talk if we may about your time in the Observer Corps.
GP: Yeah.
CB: So how did you come to join the Observer Corps and where?
EP: Because we were farming.
GP: Yeah, we were farming —
CB: Where?
GP: In Cornwall.
CB: Down in Cornwall, yeah.
GP: Who did I meet?
EP: You met, you went haymaking at next door neighbour.
GP: Next what?
EP: You went next door neighbour, helping with the harvest.
GP: Yes.
EP: And a ‘plane flew over and you went over to have a look didn’t you?
GP: That’s right yeah, ‘Are you interested in aircraft?’, I said ‘Yes, I was a pilot’.
CB: Yeah, and how did the conversation go after that.
EP: He said he had a post on his farm didn’t he?
GP: Yes that’s right he did. Who was that? That was um —
EP: Stevens.
GP: Stevens yes. Yes, he said ‘I’ve got a post on my farm’ that’s right. Um, he had these underground posts every, every four and a half, or five miles.
CB: Right. OK.
GP: They’re still there most of them.
CB: Yeah, hang on. So, this chap’s farm was where you started was it?
GP: That’s right down in —
CB: Where was that?
GP: Down in Cornwall, Pelynt in Cornwall.
CB: OK.
GP: And there was an underground post there. Um a bunker.
CB: Right.
GP: And we had a crew of ten.
CB: Right.
GP: So we’d man it with three at a time so you had a succession of people manning the post.
CB: So what did this compromise, the underground?
GP: The underground, you had a bomb power indicator, you had a battle assembly pipe outside which would record the over pressure of a bomb if it dropped and you would record it on a dial, BPI. BPI - bomb power indicator.
CB: Right.
GP: And then outside you had a pin hole camera, 360 degree camera with a cover on it and you had to load up sensitive papers in that, take it up, put it on its stand outside. If a bomb went off then it would record the height, the size of the weapon and the angle from the post, so you knew exactly, you know you could pass all this information onto your headquarters which were down Truro and they could plot it all on a big map and knew exactly what was going on. It was quite clever really.
CB: So this was with a landline reporting?
GP: Yeah. Landline.
CB: On a landline?
GP: We had radio back up but mostly landline, but um —
CB: So this is Observer Corps, so people were out observing how did that work?
GP: Royal Observer Corps, and they’re from down underground. You had a bomb power indicator underground so if a bomb went off immediately you had, the bomb power indicator would show you how many pounds pressure there was.
CB: Yes, right.
GP: How big a bomb was, and then you waited about three minutes and you went up the ladder, got outside, lifted the lid of the ground zero indicator which was a pinhole camera.
CB: Right.
GP: With four pin holes.
CB: OK.
GP: And you’d lift the lid off, took out the papers to come downstairs and then sent the readings through to headquarters and they could plot that bomb and you had several posts call the same bomb and you’d get several angles they knew exactly where the bomb was, if it went, if you had one.
CB: So what sort of bomb was this supposed to be?
GP: Well a —
CB: A nuclear weapon or an ordinary bomb?
GP: A nuclear weapon probably yeah.
CB: But the Observer Corps itself during the war.
GP: Yeah. The eyes and ears of the RAF.
CB: Were doing something different was it? Was that doing something different?
GP: Eyes and ears of the RAF.
CB: Yes. They would be working above ground during the war.
CB: Right.
GP: Spotting aircraft, saying where they were going and what they were doing, and then we went to the nuclear phase where they built all these bunkers, they’re still there ‘cause they’re solid concrete underground, most of them are still there.
CB: Right.
GP: One or two of them have been excavated but most of the are still there, if anybody’s got the keys they can go down them.
CB: So what distance are they apart?
GP: It’ll be eight miles.
CB: Right, and where are they in the country?
GP: Eight to ten miles. [?]all over the country.
CB: Right.
GP: Everywhere. There was one at Pelynt, where was the nearest one to Pelynt?
EP: I’ve no idea.
GP: Oh, um, trying to think now. They were about every eight, between eight and ten miles apart.
CB: So you were doing this part-time to begin with were you?
GP: Um.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes I was to begin with.
CB: At what point did you change to full-time?
GP: God.
EP: ’66.
GP: ’66 was it?
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah, she would know [laughs]. 1966 – full time. Yes I became an observer commander so I had quite a responsibility, then I got posted to Preston, Lancashire but I still kept my home here.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Came home on Friday nights, and went back on the two minutes past seven in the morning to get into the office before anything started happening, yeah.
CB: So at Preston you’re now a senior man, what were you doing there?
GP: Preston, well we had, I had a headquarters there, quite a big headquarters, longer than this garden with offices all the way up with staff, ‘cause you had a local area, had a whole area. There was an area Commandant who was a spare time who didn’t really do very much except have a rank but he didn’t do anything, I was the, I was the one that did the work at Preston.
CB: How long did that last?
GP: ‘Til I retired didn’t it?
EP: Five years.
GP: Five years.
CB: Yes. And from Preston where did you go?
GP: Home.
CB: No.
GP: I was sixty then.
CB: Oh you were sixty. So how does the Bentley Priory part fit into this?
GP: Oh, Bentley Priory.
CB: I’m just going to stop a moment. So, from Preston you came to Bentley Priory?
GP: Yes, I did.
CB: Before you retired, what did you do there?
GP: Well I was in, oh what was I, I was in an office there, and I’m trying to think what I did there, cor dear.
CB: The Queen?
GP: Queen’s visit, we had a Queen’s visit to Bentley Priory.
CB: What did you do about that?
GP: We have observers from the whole of the country down there, bought them all down by train and we had a big garden party at Bentley Priory and I remember I went round one way with the Duke and somebody else went round the other way with the Queen, ‘cause we criss-crossed just to introduce to one or two extra people, special people on the way round, that sort of thing, Bentley Priory.
CB: And what was the significance of the event.
GP: [Exhalation of breath].
EP: Wasn’t it the closing down of ROC was it?
GP: I think it was.
PP: Anniversary?
GP: I don’t know, yes I think it probably was that we were anticipating being closed down, the ROC, and we had just this royal garden party and we invited the Queen.
CB: Yes.
GP: And the Duke.
CB: Right.
GP: The Queen, the garden party was split in two places with the, if you know Bentley Priory out the back is a fountain. One half was that side and we were the other side. So the Queen went round one side and we took the Duke round the other and he was hilarious [laughter], he really was the old Duke of Edinburgh, but we got a lot of fun, a lot of fun with him [laughs].
CB: Well he had a lot of background with the military.
GP: Yeah, yeah, he did.
CB: OK. Thank you. Now in the Observer Corps the people needed to be trained?
GP: Yes.
CB: And what did you do on an annual basis?
GP: On an annual basis we would have a big camp at an RAF station that was being closed.
CB: Right.
GP: And um we’d have a week, I think it was a week there, and observers come from all over England to do training there, which was quite good, but I used to go as a full-time staff and help do the training. It was quite good fun really.
CB: What was the training that they had?
GP: Aircraft recognition, mostly aircraft recognition, God, it’s hard to think.
CB: ‘Cause we’re talking about the Cold War time aren’t we?
GP: Yeah, we are.
CB: And um, so aircraft flying very high that’s no good, but so what were they looking for?
GP: They were still looking for aircraft, I’m trying to think.
CB: No more.
GP: Trying to think. There was still low level flying as well, you know it wasn’t all high level. Um, gosh.
CB: Because as well as recording the data.
GP: Yeah.
CB: About nuclear blasts they had to have training for that presumably?
GP: Yeah, we, trying to think about it now. Yes, we used to have exercises which were all planned, co-ordinated so that a post which was perhaps ten miles away would have a reading and a time, and a post which was ten miles away would have details of the same blast but different timing and different angles, you know the whole thing was co-ordinated as if the real attack had come, nuclear attack had come. Massive, massive, awful, awful to contemplate really, but the whole thing was planned nationally so that all the posts, all the stuff fed in would have co-ordinated properly you know? Quite a big job really. Quite a job, a lot of planning went into it.
CB: And where was this information fed to?
GP: Fighter Command, Fighter Command mostly I ‘spose, yeah, and local defence. Surprising we had scientific officers at each group headquarters, they would work out the fall-out, the radioactivity levels and so forth as if a bomb had really dropped and so we had scientific officers there, they weren’t in the Corps but they were scientists recruited to do that job. Great big screens, two big screens. Long range board and another big screen, and you’d plot on the back and the scientific officers would read the front but you’d plot on the back.
CB: Like fighter screens, and where were these regional headquarters located?
GP: God, all over the place. Oxford, big one at Oxford.
CB: On airfields or separate?
GP: No, separate from airfields.
CB: Right.
GP: One at Oxford, there was one here at.
EP: Watford had one.
GP: Here at Watford, the bunker is still there at Watford, and it belongs now to the vets doesn’t it? They use it down below ‘cause I went down it one night, I used to, when I was down at Horsham I used to come home and I used to go and check on the headquarters here at um —
CB: At Watford?
GP: Yeah. And I went in one night, a bit on leave, I came and couldn’t understand a light was on. So, I went in to put the light out and I could hear noises, der, der, der, der and I thought hello, I said ‘Somebody’s here’ so I walked on and there was a bloke there and what he was doing, he was preparing training material for his crew using all the tape and everything you see. So, I crept down there and I didn’t let him hear me coming and I walked up to him and tapped him on the shoulder. I’ve never seen a bloke jump so high in my life [laughter]. He didn’t think anybody could get in you see, because he had the key. He was using it, he shouldn’t have been using it really, using it to prepare all his training stuff for his crew. That was very funny and I was able to creep right up to him and tap him on the shoulder, I’ve never seen a bloke jump so high in my life. Frightened him to death [laughs], yeah, and that’s still there, that building. If you went to see the vet she’d probably let you in, if you said you’d — gosh when you think the money that was spent on it all.
CB: Yeah. Well this also linked in with the RSG’s didn’t it, the Regional Seats of Government?
GP: Yes, yes it did, that’s right the RSG’s. Yes, it was an interesting time really, in another few years it will all be forgotten nobody will know what it was all about will they?
CB: We’ll have to do research into that as well.
GP: [Laughs].
CB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Geoff Paine
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-26
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Sound
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APaineGH160726
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Geoff Paine attended High Wycombe Royal Grammar School and Falmouth Grammar School, joined Air Training Corps and volunteered for the Royal Air Force at eighteen. Upon competition of initial training he was posted at RAF Waltham (100 Squadron) then at RAF Hornchurch, RAF Heaton Park and RAF Hendon. He served in a bomb damage repair unit, and reminisces a V-1 weapon exploding onto an accommodation block at RAF Hendon. Geoff continued his training in Africa (Cape Town, Bulawayo, Thornhill) flying Cornells and Harvards. He qualified as a pilot near the end of the war but after august 1945 flying activities ceased. Back in Great Britain he was stationed at RAF West Kirby, Stansted, RAF Bircham Newton, RAF Little Rissington, RAF Ternhill, RAF Oakington, RAF Lyneham, RAF Valley, RAF Swinderby, RAF Topcliffe where he flew Yorks, Oxfords, Ansons and Wellingtons until he was demobilised in 1949. He subsequently went into farming and joined the Royal Observer Corps first part-time, and eventually progressing into full time role of observer commander retiring at sixty in 1966. Discusses Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh’s visit, Cold war bomb testing and observation roles.
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Great Britain
Wales--Anglesey
Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe--Gweru
Zimbabwe--Bulawayo
South Africa--Cape Town
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cheshire
England--Essex
England--Gloucestershire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Manchester
England--Norfolk
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
South Africa--Mahikeng
South Africa
England--Lancashire
England--Bishop's Stortford
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00:54:12 audio recording
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1945
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Cornell
demobilisation
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
Flying Training School
Harvard
incendiary device
Initial Training Wing
Oxford
pilot
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
RAF Ansty
RAF Bentley Priory
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Grimsby
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hendon
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Lyneham
RAF Oakington
RAF Swinderby
RAF Ternhill
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Valley
recruitment
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/649/8919/ATophamG151018.1.mp3
d9dd7b21999e4ca110c30531867ac913
Dublin Core
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Title
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Topham, Gordon
G Topham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Topham, G
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Gordon Topham DFC (3005086 Royal Air Force) his pilots DFC citation and two photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 166 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So, this is Annie Moody and I’m here on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre.
GT: That serves you right for a start.
AM: In Lincoln.
GT: Yes.
AM: And I’m with Gordon Topham, who is in Woodton near Bungay, which in turn is near Norwich. And so, I’m going to be talking to Gordon today. We’ve got all sorts of bits and pieces. We’ve got Gordon’s logbook and school stuff and everything. But first of all, Gordon —
GT: That shows you what a —
AM: Right.
GT: Goody, goody I was, look [laughs]
AM: I’ve got it. I’ve got a report here that says the work, his, “Work and conduct have given every satisfaction. He is one of the most capable boys at handicraft that we have ever had”. Anyway, so where, where were you born, Gordon?
GT: Where?
AM: Yeah. Whereabouts.
GT: Where was I born? Salisbury.
AM: Oh right.
GT: My father — he was a steam man. He was in the Army. He learned to drive steam wagons, so, when he came out — this, you know, wheels were virtually not thought of. You had to push things around then, didn’t you? Well no, you wouldn’t know. And anyway, he took steam on as his trade when he come out the Army, and it was going around tarmacking roads. Well in those days, most roads were sort of hard core or something like that, and they were just getting the modern roads up, which were sort of single road traffic, and he used to travel quite a lot. Well, he was one of fourteen children at Salisbury, one of which died in the war, and of course, with joining the company he joined with, they had to travel all over the country. Roads, roads, roads, roads, roads. Tarmacking and, you know, in that business, he drove a steam wagon and that was the thing that did the tarring and the boiling and everything else. So, we travelled all over England, you can say, and he ended up at Wallasey in [pause], where’s that?
GR: Merseyside.
AM: Yeah. Merseyside.
GT: Merseyside, yeah. And from there, I’ve got a picture somewhere when I was knee high to an gnat and I’d got an identical steam wagon that he had, you know, a little toy. A pity I haven’t got that photo at the moment, but I’ve got a photo somewhere of him taking me with this little tractor.
AM: Where did you go to school then, if you were all over the country?
GT: That was when I just started.
AM: Right. Ok.
GT: And from there, that was all infant stuff and things like that. So the first place we settled down was in Norwich, a company there, he got fed up with tracing all over the place so he joined this company in Norwich. I’m trying to think of the name of them now, Trowse anyway, and from there he operated all around Norwich, doing maintenance with roads and steam and things like that. And that’s the first school, to say I’d got a permanent school was Trowse School, but all the others [pause], I always went to school, you know. Where ever we went they would, well the schools weren’t like they are now but, but we were accepted everywhere, go and see the Head, he’s coming, you know. So as a youngster, I went through the school ‘til normal, didn’t know anything different. If we changed villages or something, he’d do the villages around about Norfolk, we’ll say, and anything like that. And of course, we had a varying education, you could say, and we ended up, as I say, in Norwich. I went to Thorpe Hamlet School in Norwich and that’s the first school I had where I was permanent.
GR: Settled.
GT: Settled yeah.
AM: Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters, Gordon?
GT: I had a brother, they tell me, before me, and he didn’t live.
AM: Right.
GT: So, I’ve got to say yes, I did but I didn’t.
AM: But not, yeah. Didn’t grow up with you.
GT: No.
AM: How old were you when you left school? Ish?
GT: Fourteen.
AM: You were fourteen.
GT: Those were the days —
AM: So what did you do?
GT: Went to Edward J Edwards contractors, where my father took over the first Priestman excavator from Hull and they bought this excavator, and once again, I had a piece of paper but I lost it now. For the first time, that was delivered on a railway truck and Mr Totmer got this new machine and it gravels like a huge, you know, definition of a, made it sound, a huge great machine. It was only a Priestman cub, it tore at hedges and things and tore them pieces. Went to ponds and ripped the whole pond up. A big write up in the paper.
AM: So what was your role then?
GT: Sorry?
AM: So, what did you do then, in that.
GT: Well I was then still at school, wasn’t I?
AM: Oh right, yeah, sorry. I mean, once you left school though. What did you do once you left school?
GT: With the background, he knew the people around about, and Edward J Edwards said, ‘Your boy want a job? Come on. Put him in here’. And that was maintenance in Edward J Edwards.
AM: Right.
GT: Well it was Edwards J Edwards and Harry Pointer were two of the only contractors around then and Harry Pointer said, ‘Well I could do with him, because I’m solely plant’, not lorries and things which the other one was, so I transferred to him. My father was friendly with both of them actually. And that’s where I started, at Harry Pointer’s.
AM: Right.
GT: On plant hire, which was the first thing they had there after the lorries. They had lorries and things like that, first of all.
AM: Yeah.
GT: He built Norwich Football Ground.
AM: Oh, did he?
GT: The new one, yeah.
AM: Crikey.
GT: Anyway, there [pause], where did we go next?
AM: So, you’ve started there at fourteen.
GT: Yes.
AM: And leading up to eighteen.
GT: Yes. I’ve kept there, and they moved up to Aylsham Road.
GR: Had war broken out by then?
AM: Just.
GT: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: War had just broken out.
AM: Just.
GT: Yeah, and of course, that had just broken out and I suppose the big man, I want to fly, I want to fly.
AM: Is that what you fancied doing then?
GT: Yeah.
AM: Because before, so as a fourteen, fifteen year old in Norwich.
GT: Yes.
AM: Do you remember the bombing then ‘cause there was quite a lot of bombing in Norwich, wasn’t there?
GT: Oh yes. Yes.
AM: What was that like then, being on the end of that?
GT: Well I wouldn’t say it was like Coventry or anything like that.
AM: No.
GT: It was very minor.
AM: But there was though. Quite a bit of bombing.
GT: Yes. Yeah, and mainly at St Andrews, the plane, around there, the factories and things, they got those. But, yeah. And from there, the war was on then and that’s when I joined the RAF as a cadet. You know the —
AM: Right.
GT: What do you call them?
AM: So, before you were eighteen you joined up as a cadet.
GT: Yes, yeah., and that was an evening thing that you could [unclear]. So, when I was eighteen, seventeen, about seventeen I think, I went to evening classes and things like that for the ATC. Then I joined for the RAF and that was a case of, yes, you’ve joined. You’re, what did they call them? Reserved service, or something or other.
AM: So, you —
GT: So, I joined that and just waited until they said, ‘Right, you next, come in’. I went to Cardington and joined the RAF from there, from there I went to London. I think it’s all in that book actually.
AM: To Lord’s Cricket Ground.
GT: The large, yeah, Lord’s Cricket Ground. Used to eat in the zoo.
AM: I believe so.
GT: That’s where [laughs] yeah.
AM: I’ve heard stories about the food in the zoo.
GT: Yeah, yeah. So that was where I was, where you had your jabs and things like that and free, sort of, in the RAF. From there I went to Usworth in [pause], Usworth, right up North. In —
AM: Is it in Yorkshire? I’m not sure where that one is.
GT: No. Go up North. One.
GR: Northumberland.
AM: Northumberland.
GT: You go up North.
GR: Newcastle. Durham.
GT: Durham.
AM: Durham. Near Durham.
GT: And there for, I think it was about six weeks initial training.
AM: So that’s like square bashing and stuff like that.
GT: Dead right, dead right, yeah. There was hardly anything there. That was in the middle of winter. You had tents and things like that, just to harden you off, I suppose. It was really, cold taps, outside to wash, and from there went to St Athans.
GR: Yes. A lot of people.
GT: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
GT: And from there, St Athans, we went to Bridlington for training for, you know, the de de da da de da.
AM: Oh, the wireless operating.
GR: Morse.
AM: The Morse.
GT: Yeah, yeah. I went through most of the things that you’d need in the RAF, you know, you didn’t go to a gunner school or this, that and the other. You had a little bit of everything as an engineer.
AM: Right. How did they decide you were going to be an engineer?
GT: I did.
AM: You decided that.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Right.
GT: There was a panel when we joined up. They had this panel of a half a dozen big commander, and, ‘What do you think you’re clever about?’ Of course I said that I joined, I was plant hire and stuff like that, and heavy machinery, and I think they decided that I’d be a engineer. And that’s what I was rated at from there. Flight engineer. But of course, you had nothing to do with flying then, that was purely St Athan’s training. Well with the training I had, there’s paper boys and all that, joined up and I was an engineer anyway and to tell them more than what they were learning, so, I had an easy, well, not an easy run there but anything to do with engineering, they seemed to latch on to me. So, I had a good time there and I’ve got some things in there from that. So what was it? Dates and things. I can’t —
AM: So once you’d done that, yeah, some of the dates are in your log book
GT: Yeah. When was that?
AM: On what date did you go to — hang on. So that’s the first page. So, your air acclimatisation.
GT: We’re in the, yeah, we’re in the Con Unit then.
AM: Right.
GT: Learning to fly.
AM: So, what was that like then? So, you went from the, doing all the on the ground learning, if you like.
GT: Yes, yeah, and we had to go to whatever they put us on to, then from whatever aircraft we were going as training, so that’s when we started flying actually. But I was flying as a flight engineer then.
AM: Right.
GT: And —
AM: So at that point, have you been, you haven’t crewed up yet or anything like that have you? Or have you?
GT: Well, yes and no. That’s, I think you can read more into that, than what I can tell you.
AM: Here we are. So, what I’m looking at now in Gordon’s logbook is that he passed his flight engineer course at St Athan in July 1944.
GT: What’s the —
AM: And then from, yeah, so that was July 1944.
GT: Yeah.
AM: And that was from there.
GT: Yes.
AM: You went to Lindholme in Yorkshire.
GT: On what?
AM: On Halifaxes.
GT: Halifaxes. That’s right.
AM: Halifaxes.
GT: Yeah. And on a Halifax, the flight engineer sat that way on, and you were traveling that way and you do all the machinery, you know, the engines and everything, used them from the side. They decided that when they got the Lancaster, what was that odd guy sitting there doing nothing? We’ve got a spare pilot here. Doing less than if he was [laughs]
AM: Right.
GT: So, they decided that the flight engineer should be second pilot. So, then I went on flying courses and things like that and — no. First of all, I lost my mother, and you get six weeks free, you know.
AM: Bereavement leave.
GT: To sort things out there. And so, when I came back which, there will be a break there somewhere from when I left Lancasters. Halifaxes in to Lancasters.
AM: Yes. ‘Cause that’s July.
GT: Yeah.
AM: And then by September, looks like the first Lancaster. At Hemswell.
GT: Hemswell, that’s right, yeah, for training on Lancasters.
AM: And that was flying with Pilot Officer Nicklin.
GT: That’s right, and I stopped with them in the training and that’s where I started operating, didn’t I? Somewhere there?.
AM: When did you crew up then? When?
GT: Well, whatever those dates are there.
AM: Hang on, let me just put that there for now. So, right, so you crewed up with Pilot Officer Nicklin then.
GT: Yes, yeah.
AM: Got you. Right. I’m with you.
GT: That’s where we decided who should be what.
AM: And you completed your crash landing and dinghy drills and your parachute drills.
GT: Yeah.
AM: I’ve got the certification of that there. So then —
GT: Can use them [laughs]
AM: So, you were at Heavy Conversion Unit by the time you were on Lancasters then.
GT: Yes.
AM: Yeah.
GT: Yes.
AM: And I’m just looking at your first operation. So tell me what it was like, getting ready for that and the actual operation. What can you remember about the very first operation?
GT: Funny thing, you know, people say, ‘Oh you must have been terrified on the first’, and all that, but you didn’t. You took it as a matter of that was your job to do that and you just got in an aeroplane and did it.
AM: Yeah.
GT: So, there was no fantastic, you know, ‘Oh dear, here we go’. or anything like that. So that’s that started. Is it? What’s the first one.
AM: Emmerich. Stuttgart.
GT: No. That can’t be the first one.
AM: Is that not the first one. Where am I looking?
[pause]
AM: Yeah I think it is.
GT: Yes, that’s it. Operation. Emmerich.
AM: Yeah. Emmerich.
GT: Emmerich. Oh yes.
AM: Yeah.
GT: That’s right. Stuttgart.
AM: To Stuttgart.
GT: Yeah.
AM: And then quite quickly after that. So we’re in October.
GT: Operations. Yeah.
AM: Yeah, we’re in October ’44.
GT: Yeah.
AM: You went to Essen.
GT: Essen, yes.
AM: For your second one.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Sighted vertical rockets.
GT: That can’t be the first one, can it?
AM: No, that looks like the second or third one.
GT: Circuits and landings. [pause] Just general flying, cross country bombing. Emmerich, yeah. And that there’s — what date is that? 4th of the 10th ‘44.
AM: Yeah.
GT: To Emmerich.
AM: Yeah. So those are your first ones to Emmerich.
GT: Emmerich, yeah.
AM: And then to Essen.
GT: No, Stuttgart isn’t it?
AM: Stuttgart. Sorry.
GT: Yeah.
AM: And then Essen.
GT: Yeah.
AM: And I’m looking at what you’ve written in here, sighted vertical rockets. So, I don’t know what that would have been.
GT: Well that’s the V1s, you know.
AM: Oh right.
GT: The ones that went straight up and down on to London.
AM: Right.
GT: ’Cause we had to say exactly where we saw them, so they could bomb them out. Stuttgart. Fighter, air to air firing, Essen. Well, that’s Essen there.
AM: Yeah.
GT: Oh yeah. Emmerich. I’m getting the two mixed up.
AM: Ah right.
GT: Cologne.
AM: Flak damage.
GT: Three times to Cologne, Cologne, and flak damage on that one.
AM: What can you remember about the actual flights then? What was it like?
GT: Like flying an aeroplane. Honestly.
AM: Yeah.
GT: You know, you’re doing a job.
AM: What’s it like when you get the flak and —
GT: You get the Yanks, ‘Hey boys, look at this. Hey boys, look at that’. There was none of that. We would fly in an aeroplane, fly, you know, to keep it in the air. And that was a job to do and you were doing it.
AM: And you did it.
GT: No, I never remember any of the Yankee films at all or any of them. So, you know, that was, that was the run of the, you’d been trained for it and so you did it. I think that’s probably what, why we got through it. Because we were trained ready for it and didn’t do the, ‘Hi boys. Hi’ this and ‘hi’ that.
AM: You just went and did it.
GT: Yeah, that’s right. So, Cologne, Cologne. I’ve got some pictures somewhere of Cologne Bridge over the river.
AM: We’ll have to see if we can find them after. And then we’ve got Dusseldorf.
GT: Dusseldorf, yeah.
AM: Bochum.
GT: Bochum, yeah, all of them straightforward.
AM: Yeah. More flak damage at Dortmund.
GT: Dortmund, yeah.
AM: And then when you went to the, I don’t know how you pronounce it. [unclear]
GT: [unclear] yeah.
AM: You were diverted back to Waterbeach. Why would that have been then? ‘Cause then you diverted to Waterbeach and then you flew from Waterbeach back to your base.
GT: Ah, that’s where we landed. We’d been on the [unclear], coming back. I think there was fog in there or something so we had to divert to Waterbeach.
AM: Would they have had the FIDO? That FIDO landing stuff then if it was foggy?
GT: No, they had that at Scampton, didn’t they? Not Scampton, the airport near Scampton.
AM: I can’t remember.
GT: The big one where the AWACS was stationed, yeah. Trouble is Waterbeach. That was just Waterbeach just for a landing.
AM: Right.
GT: Probably fog. Fog or something like that.
AM: Ok.
GT: And Freiburg, yeah, that was the next one. Seven hours, thirteen flying.
AM: Hang on. Two pages.
GT: Yeah, Merseburg, oil plant, bombed that and that was an eight hour flight. That’s a long flight then. Scampton to base because we, once again, fog. Fog was a devil in those days. You know, the old smoke about and London used to black out, didn’t it? So, we got diverted there to Scampton to base, to Scampton, then went back to base.
AM: Then back to base.
GT: Yeah, and Essen. That was a hot spot that was.
AM: In what way? What do you mean by hotspot?
GT: Well, all the factories for armaments were built there, Ludwigshaven. That’s another one, yeah. Fighter combat, oh yeah. That was a JU88. We got caught out with them but that didn’t last long.
AM: Did your, did your gunners actually shoot at, fire at them?
GT: Oh yes, they had several goes, they were chuffed if they could get a shot. But in the air, things like that were - pfft - and that’s all over. So you don’t get big, once again, like the Yanks, ‘Hey boys, look at that one right there’, [laughs] so, anyway.
AM: Because they were flitting about. They were faster than you I guess. Aren’t they?
GT: Well they used to fly in formation. We didn’t, we just, you know, we were at the point where we were going along and —‘Look out’, That was your old man, ‘Look out there’s another one’, ‘Another one’. ‘Cause that’s pitch black, no lights or anything. And there never was a thousand bombers in the air. They used to say a thousand bomber raid, but there’s around, sort of, about eighteen and eight. Thousand, yeah, about eight hundred.
GR: Yeah.
GT: At that time, but with, we’ll say London Airport now, if that has two or three aircraft at the same time, there’s all hell let loose. But with eight hundred of you doing this.
AM: All in between each other.
GT: Yeah. Look out, up and down.
AM: Did you have any near misses?
GT: Oh many, many, yeah, same with on the targets. There was no, ‘you go in first’, ‘You go in’, ‘Come on, so and so. You go in’. That was a case everyone for themselves. So you’ve got to say you were bombing up, down, around. So, there was bombs coming down over your wings. And one night, there was a whole stick of bombs come right across ours, missed our aircraft. It’s luck as well as the skill, you know. And anyway, we got through that. Where have we got to now?
AM: You had a Munchengladbach. Oh, hang on. Before that one. Stettin Harbour.
GT: Oh, Stettin Harbour yeah. Is that the —
AM: It looks like you landed in Scotland.
GT: Oh this, yeah. That was the panic one, when everything in this country was covered in fog, so, we had to land. The only place we could get was in [pause], what’s the name of the big aircraft.
AM: Crail is it?
GT: No, that was where we ended up.
AM: Oh right.
GT: We shouldn’t have gone there. But anyway, diverted to up North, by the time we got up North we were running short of fuel and couldn’t find the station because of the fog, so we were cruising around. Now, I think that’s the biggest scare we had there because —
GR: What date was that Gordon?
AM: December ’44.
GR: Yeah. That was quite an infamous raid where Bomber Command should not have gone out that night.
GT: Yes.
GR: Because of the weather.
GT: Yes.
GR: They knew. They thought the weather would turn.
GT: Yeah.
GR: And I think, if I’m right, Bomber Command actually lost about fifty or sixty aircraft.
GT: Yes.
GR: Due to the weather conditions.
GT: Yeah, yeah.
GR: And the fog and having to crash land.
GT: Yes. Well when we landed in this, or when we arrived in this country, you couldn’t see a thing, just a blanket of fog. So, we got this diversion to, oh, the number one aircraft in Scotland. What’s the name of it?
AM: No. You’ve got me. I can’t remember.
GT: You expect me to remember all this and you can’t remember one [laughs]
AM: It says Crail because then you had to fly back from Crail to base.
GT: To get, yeah.
AM: It says Crail in Scotland.
GT: Yeah, that was right. But that isn’t where we were going.
AM: Right.
GR: Lossiemouth.
GT: Lossiemouth, isn’t it?
AM: Yeah.
GT: Yeah. That’s where we were going, yeah.
AM: Well done.
GT: That’s what I was trying to think of, yeah. We were supposed to be going to Lossiemouth and had just enough to land there. Well, we’ve got to find Lossiemouth for a start, but I’ll always remember we were going along and we got the whole crew on looking out, because it wasn’t too good then, the visibility, and I was sort of looking out the side and making sure. Where are we? And the navigator was panicking, he couldn’t get a fix on it. Anyway I was going along it, the Highlands, you know, to go up to Lossiemouth and I thought, I don’t know, I’m sure there shouldn’t be sheep under a tree [laughs] so panic stakes. I think we’re a bit low. So, anyway, we missed them and we were hunting high and low, that was really locked in then, so we were getting low on fuel as well. So we said, well there’s only one thing, set her out east, last bit of land we see, panic, down, you know. Leave it, let us look after ourselves, but it was just coming to the coast and there was a pundit light in the sky, through the fog, you know. A pundit light. Every aircraft has a pundit light. And, of course I don’t know who saw it first, one of us did, so we said, ‘Don’t let that go, keep on’. So, went around the pundit light and that’s all you could see. We’d come down and we could hear someone say something about, ‘One thousand. One thousand’, well, one thousand, so, they were trying to tell us there was a thousand feet runway, or yard, runway.
GR: Yeah.
GT: And that was, you know, we couldn’t get it in there, we couldn’t get head nor tail of what they were trying to tell us. So, we were round and round and the pundit light must be here somewhere and saw a runway, dumped in the runway, stopped dead, and just sat there, in fog, waiting for somebody or something to happen. The WingCo came out, ‘Hi boys what are you doing here?’ Well we landed, well as you know, that’s a flight, an RAF station built for the aircrew, Air Force. The —what do you call them? For the small fighter aircraft.
GR: Oh, a fighter base.
AM: A fighter.
GT: Yeah, well for aircraft. Air, Air base.
GR: Yeah.
GT: To be landing on aircraft and things like that, and this Crail was a place that used to train for that.
GR: Right.
GT: So it went straight out over the sea, and when they land, that was like landing on an aircraft carrier.
AM: Oh right.
GR: Yeah.
GT: So anyway, he said, ‘You’re on an aircraft carrier’.
GR: No, a training, so —
GT: That was just training flight.
AM: A training flight.
GR: But it was the length of an aircraft carrier.
GT: Right.
GR: So it was practicing short landings.
GT: Yeah, even then the fog had got so thick, you just couldn’t move.
GR: No.
GT: And anyway, they said, ‘Leave the aircraft where you are’, that was in the middle of the runway, but the runway, ‘We’re doing some repairs on it and it’s out of action at the moment’, so that was a bit rough. So anyway, they took us off to see if they could find some, this was the middle of the night, well early morning, so everyone was in bed and they couldn’t find anywhere to leave us and then we were sort of [pause], ‘Is it daylight yet?’ And I know, we all sort of got fed up with walking around, and got there and I went in the hangar, well we were in the hangar, actually, and there was a concrete verge in this hangar, and I thought, I’d got my big coat there, I know where I’m going to sleep tonight. I went and laid in the hangar and went off. I don’t know where the others. Well, sort of went here, there and everywhere. But there was no one about. That was Christmas, so they’d all gone. And that’s where we spent the night. Well from there —
GR: Do you know what happened to the rest of the squadron that night? Did they all go to different bases and —
GT: Well, they all went to different bases.
GR: Yeah.
GT: And some didn’t make it, I suppose.
GR: Yeah.
GT: And [pause] where are we up to?
AM: Yeah. When you, when you flew back from Crail to your base, it was actually on Christmas Day.
GT: That’s right.
AM: Yeah, 25th of December.
GT: Yeah.
AM: 1944.
GT: Yeah. Yes, I remember that, and being a Lancaster on a air, on a sea based runway.
GR: Air base, yeah.
GT: That was quite a thing to have, you know. All there, they all wanted to see our Lancaster and everything like that, then we got, time, they’d done the holes in the runway and it was time, as you say, it was Christmas Day and so, yeah, it was enough to get back home now. Home was Kirmington and they’d put us down as missing, you know, lost, but anyway we set back for there. They gave us some petrol and you know, cheerio, get off home, seat. And so, when we left there, the big boys together, you know. They’d been, they were talking to us and saying, oh what a big aircraft, all like that, everybody there was interested in the Lancaster, they’d never seen one before. So we went, took off, and we decided, well, I suppose we did decide to give them a shoot up on the air base. These are the things that go in your mind. And of course we give them a —
GR: Flypast.
AM: A flypast.
GT: Yeah, yeah.
GR: Waggle the wings.
AM: Waggle, yeah.
GT: And that was a great thing in those days, and they was chuffed as hell about that. So that’s when we got back home there.
AM: So, yeah. An hour and twenty minutes to get back.
GT: Yeah, and we knew where we were going then.
AM: And still in December, you’ve Münchengladbach, an abortive one because of engine failure.
GT: Yes, we had three engines and one was a bit dodgy at that, so we came back, and I think that’s the one we dropped the bombs in The Wash. Here.
AM: Yeah.
GT: ’Cause, well we couldn’t land with them on, so we landed and so we dropped them there and come home, abortive. So we didn’t do that one, did we?
AM: No, that don’t count does it?
GT: No.
AM: Dotted line for that one.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Instead of a proper line.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Scholven/Buer oil plants and range bombing.
GT: Who?
AM: Scholven/Buer. It’s near Gelsenkirchen.
GT: Oh yeah, yeah, oil plants, yeah, I’ve passed there. I can’t name it either.
AM: No, there’s so many.
GT: Nuremberg.
AM: Yes, that’s another.
GT: So, in January ’45 now.
AM: All these are in the Ruhr.
GT: Yeah.
GT: Where people say they did these trips but a lot of them were all little places, Freiburg and places like that where, you know, anybody could have gone in and bombed them.
GT: Yeah.
GT: But the ones with the red, they’re all in the Ruhr. Armament businesses, you know.
AM: Yeah, yeah. They’re all again —
GT: Mind you —
AM: Ludwigshafen.
GT: Ludwigshafen yeah.
AM: Wiesbaden.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Dresden.
GT: Dresden, yeah.
AM: That’s your furthest one, nine hours thirty.
GT: Yeah, Dresden, Dresden, Dresden.
AM: That was the one that caused all the trouble wasn’t it?
GT: Oh yes, yes. I knew there was something about it, yeah, that’s right.
AM: Did you, did you know anything about the trouble it was causing at the time? Or was it only afterwards.
GT: We knew it was a pottery place, you know, it was a marvellous for pottery, Dresden pottery was the thing. But there were still armaments there, there was still people there that worked in the armistry business, that was done for a purpose. No one will ever know who did it, Churchill or what, but yeah, we did the snags there, yeah. Where have we got to?
AM: That was, so that was February 45.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Chemnitz.
GT: Chemnitz.
AM: Jet aircraft sighted.
GT: Oh that was the first jet aircraft we’d seen, yeah, ‘cause they got it before we did, and this thing attacked us but the thing was, that it was so fast that they couldn’t keep long enough to do any damage. ‘Cause that’s – pffffftt - you know.
AM: Yeah.
GT: It was panic stakes then, but that’s, there was nothing dangerous about it. Well they could have been if they had been able to control it.
AM: I’m just looking at this one just before it where, Politz near Stettin.
GT: Stettin.
AM: And it says collision.
GT: Ah.
AM: With cables.
GT: Ah, now, that’s the one.
AM: An aircraft severely damaged. Tell me about that one.
GT: Where did we go from there? Did I have a piece of paper on the back here?
AM: Oh, is it the one where your pilot was —
GT: Yes, yes the —
AM: I’ve seen.
GT: Which ones there. That’s the general one they sent out to all of us with the aircrew thing itself.
AM: What actually happened?
GT: Well. If I can find this one. [pause] Must be the other, is there?
AM: That’s your school one.
GT: Oh, I’ll put that —
AM: Looking at this one though, the one about your pilot.
GT: Yeah.
AM: So it was the 8th, the night of the 8th and 9th of February ’45.
GT: Yeah [pause] it’s here somewhere. Oh here it is. That’s where he [pause]
GR: I think it’s this one, it tells you it’s when you took off, this particular one, on taking off you became airborne and your aircraft got caught in the slipstream of another aircraft.
GT: That’s it. That’s it, yeah.
GR: Which made it temporarily uncontrollable.
GT: Is that the actual citation?
GR: Yeah, and then having the misfortune to strike high tension cables.
GT: Ah, I took over with my start, didn’t I?
AM: Can you remember what it, what it felt like when that happened?
GT: Yeah. Well that’s what we’re sort of getting around to, isn’t it?
GR: It is that. Book, it’s that. Yeah. And I think that’s detailing.
GT: Yes, yeah, the original one.
AM: It doesn’t matter because this tells us the story.
GT: Yeah.
AM: So you were caught in the slipstream of another aircraft.
GT: Yes.
AM: And became temporarily out of control.
GT: Yes.
AM: Having the misfortune to strike the high tension cable that broke but Flight Lieutenant Nicklin, so he’s flight lieutenant by this time.
GT: Yes.
AM: By superb handing of his aircraft regained control.
GT: That’s the usual bumph isn’t it, yeah.
AM: But your major navigational aid was completely unserviceable.
GT: Yeah, yeah.
AM: But you did still go to the target.
GT: Yes, now, what happened, it was raining and bad weather that night, been abortive three times and the third time, you know, you sit on the end of the runway, waiting to take off and there’s a chap in the caravan at the end gives you a green or a red, you know. A green is get out of it [laughs], so three times that was a red, go back to the station. to the dispersion, and the third time it was another blooming raining day. Well I was getting a bit fed up of sitting there a couple of hours each time, another raining day, and — green. Green. Eh? In this? So anyway we took off, I think there was about twelve aircraft took off on that, and in Lincolnshire, the orders were keep low, hedge hop. Because radar shines like that from Germany, and they knew exactly when you were taking off, you know [pause] the depot. So, anyway, if you keep low, they couldn’t get this radar on you. Well, we took off in a big stream, we were too low, so we hedge hopped to over the Lincolnshire coast and normally, you know, just a hedge hop trip. We got a bit too low and Lincolnshire is covered in blinking high tension cables, the big old pylons and big lines. Well, anyway, I’m going forward a bit now, but let’s come back, nicely going along, you know, bad weather, we sort of couldn’t really see anything using the navigation and what not, and all of a sudden, there’s a terrific crash and all the windows turned green. You couldn’t see through them. That was the electricity going through.
GR: Oh God. Yeah.
GT: The aircraft, and there was a hell of a bang, but, ‘What the hell’s that?’, ‘What was that, gunner?’ you know, the rear gunner, and he said, ‘Well there’s some high tension cables all flashing on the ground behind me’. Of course, that was, we’d gone right through. Luckily the middle of the pylons, the actual, the actual wires themselves. Had we have been either way a little bit, you know how the big old pylons are.
GR: You’d have hit the pylon and —
GT: We’d have hit the pylon and we were chips. Well why we weren’t chips, I don’t know but we sort of shook our heads and the windscreens all cleared up. And we were looking trying to see what, the gunner was the chap who told us, you know, what was behind. It was all on fire on the ground. So we pressed on and the old aircraft was doing a bit of shuddering and the engines running, we were still flying, we had a little check-up on it. The fuel was still there, we hadn’t lost any fuel, and so we decided to carry on to, where was it? Was it Stettin?
AM: Politz.
GT: Politz.
AM: Near Stettin.
GT: Yeah, that was near Stettin that.
AM: Yeah.
GT: That’s mining, mining job, and as we got over the coast and went on the job, did the mining, come back. When we got back on the ground and looked at it, there were all the propellers were sort of knocked back, they were all out of line in other words. Not to that degree but, and the engine coolers, which you put them up and down to cool the engines.
GR: Yeah.
GT: And they’re the lowest things on the aircraft, and all those were missing, and the radar. That was, what this was, the aircraft with the radar on the bottom, they used to have a turret at the bottom, then they did away with the turret and made that radar. So that was a piece at the bottom.
GR: Yeah.
GT: That was gone, missing all together. I think all the bits are in there.
AM: Yeah.
GT: But that didn’t look too good in other words, and had we have known or been able to get out and see, ‘No, we’re not going anywhere with that’. But we did, we got there and got back again and that was what all the hoo-hah was about.
GR: Yeah.
GT: So —
AM: So your pilot was recommended for an immediate DFC.
GT: Yeah, yeah, even though it was his fault we hit them [laughs]
AM: And that, and it was quite a long, it was a long flight. It was eight hours thirty.
GT: Oh yes, yeah.
AM: Yeah, and that was, and that, so by February ’45, then you did Dresden and Chemnitz.
GT: Yeah.
AM: And at that point you’d completed your first.
GT: First.
AM: Tour.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Your first thirty ops.
GT: Which, boys together, they send you home for six weeks, a rest, but when you come back, you join another crew, or get crewed up again and get another aircraft and like that. But we all sort of said, well, we’ve all stuck together, a nice little pile of us, you see, so we said we’d carry straight on which you’ll find —
AM: You did.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Because your thirtieth was on the 14th of February.
GT: That’s right.
AM: And then, by the 1st of March.
GT: Yeah.
AM: You were up again.
GT: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. So we did the second tour straight away instead of waiting, I think that was six weeks, when you broke up and then had another crew.
AM: And he’s got a DFC by his name, in your logbook now, look.
GT: Oh yes. Yes, yeah.
AM: So you went to Mannheim.
GT: Mannheim, yeah.
AM: Dessau.
GT: Dessau, yeah.
AM: And that —
GT: They were all Ruhr ones.
AM: Yeah, that’s where you saw the Junkers JU88 again.
GT: Yes, yeah.
AM: And your very last one was Dortmund.
GT: That’s right, yeah, Dortmund.
AM: Flak damage.
GT: Yeah.
AM: So that was the 12th of March.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. So, thirty six operations altogether.
GT: Yeah.
AM: So then when war finished then, you were telling me about, you were still at Kirmington, but no one knew you were there.
GT: Oh, when, when the war finished, yeah. All the aircraft had to go back, you know, it was storage and what not, and we’d finished operations then, so our aircraft was redundant anyway, so they took that off us. Then the pilot who went back to New Zealand, and we sort of broke up then but we was, there was three, was it three or four? Three, I think it was, engineers, somehow or other, we got forgotten about and we were living in the NAAFI, in sort of luxury [laughs] and anything they wanted to do on the aircraft, we got aircraft, we got lorries coming in. We want three loads of so and so from the so and so area, we organised that, put them on. Somehow, we got we were the only aircrew, or the only airmen there to control the whole aircraft, the whole airfield.
GT: Yeah. Where were we?
AM: So, you were at Kirmington, holed up in the NAAFI in luxury.
GT: Yeah, yeah. We were in charge of the whole, you know, in charge and we were there to break the whole, to close the whole thing down. Lorries used to come in, wWe used to say, ‘You want a thousand blankets in this lorry’, and want this and that. No, I shan’t tell you what we did with the other blankets [laughs] but we hadn’t got enough to fill a lorry so we cut them in half, ‘course the villages, they were having a whale of a time. They were taking blankets and electrical bits, and bits out of this and bits out of that. So, anyway, that’s, they decided, oh where did you come from, and that’s when we got diverted to, sent to Scampton, on this 617. Is it?
AM: Yeah, 617.
GT: Yeah, and that’s where we dropped the Dambusters two.
AM: So, I know you’ve told me a little about that before but tell me again. Where did you drop them?
GT: Out to the Irish Sea. The other side of Ireland, on the Irish Sea.
AM: And it was the remainder of the bombs from the Dams raid.
GT: That was the last two that was bleeding in the, in the bomb dump and they wanted to get rid of them.
AM: Right.
GT: Quickly.
AM: So these were the bouncing bombs.
GT: Yeah.
AM: Did they bounce when you dropped them then?
GT: Didn’t see that part [laughs], I know they went off.
AM: No, when you dropped the last two I mean.
GT: Yeah, that’s what I mean. We just dropped them dead, just to get rid of them and that’s when the whole sea, actually didn’t see them hit the sea but the whole sea was – zzzzzz - for miles around.
AM: Gosh, and you were telling me a little bit about when you met your wife.
GT: Well I met her in the RAF. Her father was the farmer there and he had a dairy farm, and, well there was the dog. That’s right.
AM: Oh the d —
GT: She loved dogs.
AM: Right.
GT: And I used to go up to breakfast every morning and she’d be delivering the milk, and that was all. She was always after the dog. So, you know, I know all about him and we got to stop and talking and the next thing, I was having boiled beef and carrots at the farm. And all through the do I was on, she lived, her bedroom, you could see right across the runway, all the dispersals and she used to, at night time, this was when things got serious, and at night time, she would watch all the aircraft come in and go to dispersal and those that didn’t come in, you know, they were the chops. And so she never used to go to bed at night time ‘til she’d seen our aircraft in the dispersal. In the —
AM: Come back.
GT: Yeah. So that’s, that was the thing but nothing serious until, until I finished operations and then we got married at Kirmington Church, which is the local church, which is —
AM: I can see your wedding picture there.
GT: That’s one, yeah, there’s one of the church there somewhere.
AM: So when did you, when were you finally demobbed. I’m just trying to find it here in your logbook.
GT: Now I wouldn’t have been demobbed. They tried their hardest to keep me in the RAF because I was doing quite a good job then at Scampton, not Scampton, Binbrook, and they wanted me to stop in the RAF. They promised me all sorts of things, I was going to get a PO and you know, pilot officer and that, and then you’d go this and train people to do that and what not. But the firm that I’d left to go there said, ‘We want you back and we’ve got, we made, there was six houses at Guardian Road for you to come back to’, because they knew I’d got married then, and our first child, after that was over and so, you know, ‘What are you going to do? We can’t keep this empty for a long while. And, when are you coming back? And are you coming back?’ The RAF were saying, ‘You’re a key man in Binbrook. Stop in here, you’ll be, you know, God almighty and go all over the world’. Well, married and one child on the way then, we decided that roaming around the world, I’d done enough of it, so packed up the RAF went back to my old job.
AM: Right.
GR: And that was round about July 1947.
AM: ‘47.
GT: ‘47 was it?
GR: Yeah.
GT: And that was on Guardian Road.
AM: So it was more than two years after the war finished though.
GT: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Any regrets? Are you glad you did that?
GT: Yes, very glad we did it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, alright it’s a glamourous job in the civilian RAF but that isn’t like making a life for yourself, is it? Just a glamourous thing to be, travel the world and not knowing where your head is going to rest next time. So there’s pros and cons for either way, but my main thought then, was family life, settle down, do my job that I know I do and carry on from there. So we accepted the house and that’s where I was for about twenty one years.
AM: And you were still only about twenty two then.
GT: Yes. I was.
AM: Twenty two then. Twenty two or twenty three.
GT: Yes. I suppose I was.
AM: It’s amazing isn’t it?
GT: Yeah. From there I had [pause], what was it? I started at Harry Pointers, they put me on to Pointer contractors, then I got on the Pointer Plant Hire, and then they sold out to Readymix and Readymix kept the plant hires for a while and then they come to, well, they got a little gang of us together in the plant hire and, ‘Look, we’re selling out. We don’t want plant hire’. They wanted gold out of the ground, gravel and stuff like that.
AM: Yeah.
GT: And they’d sell for business and what not, so they didn’t want plant hire at all, so they said, ‘We’ll set you up, and if five of you will get the, all the five various, you know, the plant hire’, well there’s several different sections of it, ‘and the five of you will be directors. We’ll give you the’, aircraft, the aircraft, the cranes, the big old cranes and, you know, ‘You can take the company from us’. Well, they give us a very good deal and because the house was mortgaged and everything else and fingers crossed, but luckily that came out all right. So that’s when we turned into Quinto. Crane and plant.
AM: That what I’m looking at.
GT: That was five of us.
AM: Quinto crane and plant limited. Gordon Topham, Engineering Director.
GT: That’s right. Yeah.
AM: And on that note, I’m going to switch my recorder off.
GT: Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gordon Topham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATophamG151018
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:00:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Topham was born in Salisbury, but his family settled in Norwich, Norfolk and he joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 17, qualifying as a flight engineer in July 1944. Gordon’s father used to drive steam wagons and was involved with tarmacking roads - Gordon went into working with machinery, thus aspiring for a flight engineer role. Upon completion of his wireless operator training at RAF Bridlington, he was transferred to a heavy conversion unit then moved to RAF Lindholme - where he flew Halifaxes – and then to RAF Hemswell, for conversion to Lancasters. Gordon tells of his experience on his various operations, including Stuttgart, Essen, Emmerich and Freiburg, bombing oil plants, munitions factories, sustaining anti-aircraft fire damage and his encounter with a Junkers Ju 88 fighter. Whilst on an operation to Essen, he and Pilot Office Nicklin spotted a V-1 site and reported its position so it can be attacked. He also tells of landing in fog, either at his home or diverted to others including Crail in Scotland. Describes its runway out over the sea, as to simulate landing on an aircraft carrier. Gordon also talks of the time they had to fly at low altitude because of German radar - he and his pilot were ordered to hedge hop over the Lincolnshire coast when they hit high-voltage power lines. They had not lost fuel so they carried on to their target, Politz, near Stettin. He also tells of the damage to his aircraft on the return leg. After the war Gordon returned to his company after marrying. Later he became the engineering director at Quinto Crane and Plant Limited.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Fife
Scotland--Crail
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Freiburg im Breisgau
Poland
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb dump
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bouncing bomb
flight engineer
Halifax
incendiary device
Ju 88
Lancaster
pilot
RAF Bridlington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
training
V-1
V-weapon
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/651/8922/PTweenR1501.1.jpg
055b54dce19d8322e090e3b8902969b3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/651/8922/ATweenRC150909.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tween, Reginald
R Tween
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tween, R
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Reginald Tween (b. 1925, 3005992 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 514 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GC: Right. This is an interview being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name’s Gemma Clapton. The interviewee here today is Reginald Tween who was flight sergeant.
RT: Sergeant.
GC: 514 Squadron. The interview is taking place at his home in Heybridge Basin on the 9th of September 2015. Right, how did you get started in the war? How did you join up?
RT: Well when we were youngsters, we were always interested in models, especially model aeroplanes, and we carried on from there. I joined the ATC, and that was my ambition, to join the Royal Air Force to fly. Being in the ATC as a top cadet, blowing my trumpet a bit, I had two flights at Hornchurch Aerodrome while I was in the ATC, so I knew what flying was like.
GC: So you wanted to fly. Not Army or Navy.
RT: No. No. No. No. No. Flying was the one interest, yeah [unclear]. Do you stop it?
GC: Yeah.
[recording paused]
GC: So you did the acc. Now, you’ve just —
RT: ATC.
GC: Act.
RT: ATC.
GC: ATC. You’ve got me at it now.
RT: Auxiliary training.
GC: Tell me a bit about before you joined up.
RT: Well we was always in to making models, making model aeroplanes and flying them. There was a group of us, a brother included.
GC: Did your brother serve? Did you —
RT: Yes. On — he failed the medical for flying so he had to serve in the Meteorological branch.
GC: Was he jealous?
RT: A bit, yes, because we’d both looked forward to flying so much.
GC: So, as a member of the ATC, what did you see of the war before you joined Bomber Command?
RT: Well, all the fighting going on overhead, and the oil works being set ablaze and all that sort of thing. The whole war was going on overhead, bombs dropping at the end of the garden where we lived and that sort of thing.
GC: Where did you live at this time?
RT: Chadwell, which was two miles from Tilbury, and we stood out at the back door, watching what was going — did like to see what was going on, even with the shrapnel pinging down. And an anti- aircraft shell landed in the back garden on the point of the house, blew half the garden into the front road. Another, another time, there was a land mine dropped a couple of miles away and blew the back door off of the house.
GC: So did these things make you want to serve more?
RT: Not particularly, no. We were, we were so keen to start with. I do remember one time, this is later, when I was on leave, I saw the V2s rocket being launched from Holland, saw the vapour trail of the rocket come up and over and then it landed in London. Because we had the report a couple of days later, that the rocket had landed so and so.
GC: So obviously where you were, which is Tilbury, which is not far from East London.
RT: It’s a direct line from Germany to London.
GC: Yeah.
RT: They used to fly right overhead. And the diesel engines — you could tell them a mile away, with a certain hum, hmmmmm, all the time, couldn’t mistake them. Then, when I was at work at Purfleet, West Thurrock, I’m cycling into the works entrance, and a Junkers 88 came over and dropped a bomb right over my head [laughs] which landed at the Van den Burg and Jurgens, where they were making all the margarine. Killed a couple of people.
GC: So did all the young men just want to serve? Did they believe it was their duty to serve?
RT: In the ATC?
GC: Yeah.
RT: Oh yes, all the youngsters. Yes. Yeah. And we said they started it, we’ll finish it.
GC: So, once you decided that you was going in to the Air Force, how did, how did your training start and where was you based?
RT: Oh, I joined up in London, St John’s Wood.
GC: Whenabouts? When?
RT: Oh I can’t remember. Forty, must have been ’43, and then we went from there to Torquay. Did lots of training there.
GC: When —
RT: Then —
GC: Sorry.
RT: Yeah, then to a station near — just south of Cambridge, Wratting Common. W R A T T - Wratting Common. Then from there we went to Feltwell, further training, near Cambridge, and Lakenheath. No, not Lakenheath, Methwold. Methwold.
GC: My granddad lived there. At Feltwell.
RT: Yeah. And then from there, we went to the squadron at Waterbeach and started operational flying from there. In August, August, I was looking at it, August the 3rd was my first flight. Operation.
GC: So, during your training, did you want to be a flight engineer or did your training just to lead you that way?
RT: I was also mechanically minded. Everybody wanted to be a pilot obviously, but my education let me down, so as soon as they knew, they asked me questions about engines and various things. They said, ‘Right. Flight engineer’, so that was that. I accepted it, no qualms. I wasn’t good enough for a pilot and that was it. Yeah. Everybody can’t be a pilot, obviously, and I had a — well, I won’t say a wonderful time but it was, something. Well it’s one of those things, I mean, a lot of lives were lost. But I never — the furthest I’d been from home was a week’s holiday in Clacton before I joined up. In those days, a Sunday School outing was to Maldon once a year.
GC: So we’ve gone as a flight engineer. Tell me about your first op then, if you can remember it. Can you remember?
RT: Yeah. The flying bomb sights, in — near the Pas de Calais, near, near Calais, just across the channel. Actually, I’ll go and get my logbook [pause]. Every, all the cricket matches. We flew from Cambridge, all the way to Cornwall at, say, four hundred foot, and everybody lay flat on their face. Three hundred Lancasters in one mass. And the cows were jumping the hedges, the farmers must have gone berserk after. Then the tail gunner saw everybody getting up again. We flew at a hundred foot over the Atlantic and it took us nine hours, there and back, and we bombed coming in from the south, to catch them unawares, they were only sweeping from the north. And on that trip, the skipper said, ‘Swap seats’, and I flew the plane for twenty minutes, down off the Channel Islands, coming back, and I had another flight at the controls on this second trip which was a day later, for twenty minutes. And the rear gunner, he’s saying, ‘Get him off there. I’m getting sick here’. because I was going up and down [laughs], oh dear. On one of those trips, I had to shut one engine down. We had trouble with the hydraulics and oxygen U/S, but we weren’t climbing very high, so that was ok [pause]. Our sixth operation was to Stettin, in the Baltic. We come back flying over Sweden, that was a nine hour flight also, and seven, eight and nine trips were bombing barges and troops in Le Havre. We were down to two thousand feet due to the weather. Two were shot, two of our aircraft were shot down. All baled out. That was daytime. Now, the tenth trip saw two Lancasters collide and blow up over France.
[pause]
RT: On the fourteenth trip, to Duisburg, we had two Lancasters following us which were to drop their bombs when we dropped ours, as we were the senior crew. As we approached the target, there was a stick of bombs coming down on the starboard side, so I nudged the skipper, he looked out and saw the same thing on the port side. So with that, he put the nose down slightly to get away from the bombs which were dropping just past our wingtips. With that, the radar picked us up. The next thing, there was a terrific thump and the aircraft stood on its nose, we were heading straight down. When I picked myself up and I looked back and the two behind had just blown up, completely disappeared. All I could see, was red flame, black smoke, nothing, just one huge bang. When I looked at the speedometer, we were doing four hundred miles an hour, more or less straight down, so the skipper yelled, ‘Give us a hand’, and we managed to pull it out of the dive and regain our height again. Then a couple of minutes later, the bomb aimer comes staggering up from the nose with his helmet off, torn off, his mask, and a huge strip of skin off his, I could see bare skull right across his head. Blood everywhere. Oh, a terrible sight. So I managed to bandage him up, took him back, laid him on the bed and then he said, ‘You’d better have a look to see if the bombs are gone’. So I had to lay down on the floor, amongst all the blood, looked in the bomb bay and half the bombs hadn’t dropped, so that was another shock. So the skipper then said, ‘Well you’d better, better drop them soon as you can’, so I went back with a special lever we had and I dropped the bombs as we flew back across Germany. That was, that was the most unnerving trip we had out of the whole lot. On that same trip, Richard Dimbleby flew with one of the other planes from our squadron, which was a very unusual thing, for a civilian to be allowed on to a plane to fly, but he did anyway. So that was that.
[pause]
RT: Oh, and the twenty fifth operation was to Dortmund. I’ve got here, ‘Jolly good trip. First kite to bomb. Tons of flack. Twenty five holes’, so that was that. On the twenty eighth operation, ‘Very good show. Tons of flak. Very accurate. A few holes. Two Lancasters shot down that we saw. Two five hundred pound bombs loose in the bomb bay’. When the undercarriage was selected down, there was two bangs and the two bombs were laid on the bomb doors, so we had to fly all the way out to the North Sea, open the bomb doors and just let them fall into the water. It didn’t explode and that was that. [pause] That’s it. Right. So my last, my last trip was on the 16th of the 12th ’44, Siegen. Distance, nine hundred and fifty miles. ‘Fairly good attack. Tons of flak en-route. None over the target. Ten tenths cloud all the way. Roads and rail. Hedge hopping on the way back as a last trip, with toilet rolls thrown out over the aerodrome as we celebrated our last operation’ [laughs].
GC: So how many ops in all did you do?
RT: Twenty-eight. I was, I was sick for one, had a cold, so you can’t fly with your ears blocked up. Yeah, so that was that. Then we went on indefinite leave after our operations finished [pause]. All told, I flew a hundred and forty-five hours in daylight, sixty six hours at night, so we had more daytime flights than we had night time flights actually.
GC: Was it safer day or night do you think? Was there a difference?
RT: I used to like to be able to see where we were going in daylight. It was, it was, because our navigator, he only saw one target, he was cooped up behind his curtain. We said, ‘Come and have a look at this, Les’, and he came out, took one look and dived back in [laughs], he wasn’t interested. But I used to fold, fold my seat up and be ready, looking out, around, up and down. On one trip, we were coned with searchlights. We had an awful job getting away from that because once you were in searchlights, usually that was curtains, because they could zone in onto you then, but we put it into a steep dive, or the skipper did, and we managed to escape, which was very lucky. I do remember it was so bright that I could fill out my log sheet with the petrol, without using a lamp. It was like daylight. Oh it was unnerving. Oh dear. Terrible.
GC: Someone told me that they were happier with the guns going, because the guns meant that the night fighters weren’t up. If the guns weren’t firing.
RT: Oh yes. Yeah. We only had two, bags of fighters, two MEs after us. That was at night. There was only one more when we were with, had fighters to contend with, but it was the flak. We was going into briefing and they would mention there might be six hundred light guns and maybe eight hundred heavy guns in the target area, so everybody started biting their nails, and [laughs] oh dear, yeah. See the black puffs, there was so many shells bursting, it was like flying into clouds at times, even though it was a clear sky. In the daylight, all these puffs filled the sky with smoke. Quite unnerving, yeah. Right, so that was it.
GC: I’ll turn that off for a second.
[recording paused]
RT: A Nissen hut down by the River Cam, away from the airfield for safety. We used to go swimming in the river when we weren’t flying. Oh, one special occasion, we were told not to leave the camp under any circumstances as there was a possibility of operations that night, so the pilot decided he wanted to go and see his girlfriend in Cambridge, and he went. Lo and behold, we had the call to operations, so we went to briefing, had our meal, had everything. In the meantime, we had to tell the squadron leader in charge of the flight that we were short of a pilot. So he gets in his car and goes off to Cambridge, one of the gunners showed him the address, and brought him back. He came back just in time to get in the aircraft and take off, otherwise he would have been court martialled. Oh dear. So we’re telling him where we’re going, what we’re going to do and everything else, as we’re flying there. Oh dear.
GC: So it was a close unit.
RT: Oh, he nearly had the chop there. Oh dear, he would have been thrown out, dereliction of duty and all the rest of it. Disobeying an order. Oh dear, yeah, but it all turned out right in the end. Good job they had a car handy.
GC: So did you [pause], can you describe what it was like to fly in a Lancaster?
RT: Absolutely exhilarating to me. That’s, that’s what I spent my youth dreaming about, flying, and I’d been up twice in the ATC, so didn’t have any trouble, sickness or anything. Lovely. Terrible thing you have to have a war to get flying in. But I was, I enjoyed every moment of it.
GC: And what was the Lancaster like?
RT: Cramped. Our parachutes were stowed under the navigator’s table, so you hadn’t a hope in hell of getting it if there was any damage to the aircraft, because once you turn over or something like that, you just can’t move. Because when we were training over the Thames Estuary, we had a Spitfire doing fighter affiliation with us, in other words, mock attacks, and I’m standing up alongside the pilot, and all of a sudden as we dived and pulled up, I went blind, with G forces, and it was a very strange feeling. Quite a few seconds and then my vision suddenly came back. And I wondered, I couldn’t move my hands or my feet, I was glued in place with the G forces. Oh, it was amazing. The only time I ever had that effect. It might have been better if I’d have been sitting down. It wouldn’t have happened because they have G suits now to stop that, stops the blood draining out of your head, yeah. But it was very peculiar, yes.
GC: Can you remember the sensations of, for example, a bombing sortie over a city? Can you remember the noise? The smell, those kind of things.
RT: Well you didn’t get anything outside because it was so noisy in the aircraft, but at night, I looked up on one trip and I could see a row of red-hot exhausts, just above our head. If I’d have stuck my arm out of the top, I swear I could have touched the plane. It was a big shock because there was no good in dropping down, we might have done the same to the one underneath. Oh, it was very, very dodgy, very dodgy, especially when we were flying in solid cloud. You didn’t know who was next door or above or below you or anything, and then when we flew through cumulus cloud, the bumping and the disturbance, oh terrible. It would shake your teeth out nearly, it used to [laughs].
GC: I suppose it must be a different kind of flying, because these days, we have a lot of technology and equipment. You literally did it on —
RT: Well on — instrumentation in those days was very basic, very basic, yeah. Nowadays they’ve got an instrument that tells them how many miles they’ve flown, because when I’ve been up in the cockpits, on foreign holidays, I’ve asked to see if I could go up in to the, on the flight deck, and I told them who I, what I’d done and that, and I said, ‘Well what’s that then?’ ‘Oh that’s how many miles we’ve flown’. Oh. Dead easy, yeah. GPS, global positioning these days, you can’t get lost, but we had to find our own way. Well when you were in a mass, you just follow the leader, but at night, it was different. Everybody had to navigate then because there was no lights at all. No, no.
GC: So, is there one operation that sticks out in your memory?
RT: Well, that one where the two blew up behind us. That was a sight, oh dear, terrible. Just there one second, gone the next, yes. But at least they didn’t suffer, they never knew anything about it. Just one big bang and they were gone. But that aircraft we were flying, that never flew again because it was so bad, it damaged our tail plane. They seemed to think that if we’d have flown much longer, it would have fallen off of ours, so we were lucky there, very lucky, yes.
GC: So the ground crew were as protective of the planes as we hear.
RT: Oh yes. Yes. Yes, the same crew for the whole period of flying. Actually, we flew three different aircraft. One was time expired, it had reached its maximum flying hours, and the next one was written off, didn’t fly again, and then we finished up with the third one, so we were quite lucky actually.
GC: Can you tell me a bit about life after the war? How did you hear that the war had ended? What was your emotion to that?
RT: Well everybody was very pleased because we were on six months leave, ready to go to the Far East, so that meant that we were finished flying for good, while I was on five weeks leave, and that was it.
GC: Would you do it again?
RT: If — if need be, yes. We were doing it for a cause, a good cause. He had to be stopped. And as Bomber Harris said they started it, we’ll finish it. I never had any qualms about dropping bombs on cities. They started it, I mean I used to see them flying up. Well they dropped bombs where I lived anyway, houses up the street, so we were only giving them back what they started. Oh yes.
[recording paused]
RT: It was like sitting in a bus, they just go up and your ears pop, but when we did our two low flying trips, that was flying. Two hundred and twenty miles an hour at four or five hundred foot, everything flashing by underneath you. That was when, when you had to be careful and watch what was coming up ahead, but when you’re up at thirty thousand feet, people go from A and B, they don’t know what’s on the way. I used to like to be looking out the window when we flew abroad, but other people would be either asleep, reading books. I had my head glued at the window to see what was passing underneath, night or day. Oh yes.
GC: So, you were a bit of an adrenalin junkie then.
RT: Oh, for flying. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We used to have a huge kite. We built a huge six-foot wingspan model and it used to run up the wire on a gadget we made. Hit stop at where the kite was and then drop and glide all the way back, because we had huge fields where I used to live, and we’d have to run like hell to retrieve the glider before someone else found it. I used to go cycle to Hornchurch Aerodrome, which was six miles from home, and we used to watch them testing the Spitfire’s cannons, firing at the railway sleepers. Wood, pieces of wood flying everywhere. They left the tail up so it was horizontal. Oh dear. Now it’s a housing estate where the aerodrome used to be. Hornchurch. Yes.
GC: So why, that brings the question, why Bomber Command and not Fighter Command. Why the bombers?
RT: Well I wasn’t clever enough as a pilot, so the only thing left was crew, and the fact that I was mechanically minded, obvious to us, was a flight engineer, which I quite enjoyed. Sitting there filling my petrol log out. Every time I altered the engine speed, I had to work out how much petrol we used from each tank, in case the instruments were damaged. Every quarter of an hour I think that was, yeah.
GC: So, it’s like we said. It’s not technical, it’s mathematical and instrument based.
RT: A lot of it, yeah. Actually, sitting alongside the pilot, he only flew it. I used to do the revs. Same as when we took off, he’d start it off, then he used to say, ‘Through the gate’, I’d put the throttles — the last bit, three thousand revs maximum, then you’d say, ‘Throttle back’. Once we were airborne, flaps, speed, all the controls I operated, which was like a second pilot on an airliner actually, yeah. And we were supposed to be able to fly it straight and level in case the pilot was injured. I think I could have flown it, but I don’t know about getting down. I’d have flown back, got them to bale out and then ditched it, I think, oh dear.
GC: They would have taken that off your weekend rations, would they?
RT: Yes. Oh dear. Yeah. Yes, but out of twenty-eight trips, I only ever saw three parachutes. Of all the planes that either blew up, a wing blown off, just spiraling down, nobody, nobody could get out, so having a parachute wasn’t much good a lot of the time. No. You had to find it, then clip it on and then try and bale out. It wasn’t on. Too difficult, no. And those that were spiraling down, they knew what they were heading for obviously. It wasn’t quick, they could see it coming. Yes, it must have been terrible.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Reginald Tween
Creator
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Gemma Clapton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-09
Format
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00:36:27 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATweenRC150909, PTweenR1501
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Reginald joined the Royal Air Force in 1943, becoming a flight engineer with 415 Squadron, Bomber Command. He tells of his love of making and flying model airplanes, and that although he wanted to be a pilot, his love of anything mechanical, made him an easy choice for a flight engineer. Reginald tells of joining the Air Training Corps, watching the V-2 rockets coming over his home in Tilbury and their effects. His first operation was on 3rd August and it was to target the V-1 sites near the Pas de Calais, and he had operations to Stettin and Duisburg. He tells of two Lancasters that were shot down. Reginald flew 28 operations with Bomber Command (145 hours in daylight operations and 66 hours during night operations).
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Germany
Poland
France
England--Essex
England--Tilbury (Thurrock)
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Duisburg
France--Pas-de-Calais
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-08-03
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
514 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
flight engineer
Lancaster
mid-air collision
RAF Waterbeach
shot down
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9237/PBarnesR1701.1.jpg
3e4f8d44c9f6217fb8174f979017bf4d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/692/9237/ABarnesR170803.1.mp3
e1632569838eaa6a9f6a2e8d0a0159cd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Barnes, Robert
R Barnes
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Robert Barnes (b. 1923) He flew operations as a flight engineer with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
2 Interviews
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barnes, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, I’ll just introduce myself. So, this is David Kavanagh interviewing Bob Barnes at his home on August the 3rd 2017. So, if I just put that down there.
RB: Right.
DK: I might occasionally look at it. It’s just to make sure it’s working.
RB: Yeah [laughs]
DK: So, what, what I wanted to ask you first of all was —
RB: Sorry. If I have, if you —
DK: No, that’s ok.
RB: If I don’t hear you properly it’s because I’m hearing a bit —
DK: Ok. Ok. What, what I wanted to ask first was what were you doing before the war?
RB: Well, I was in the last year at school and living in London. We were evacuated to Duke of Sutherland’s place near Guildford.
DK: Right.
RB: Thirty of us. They thought, they were expecting girls but but anyway we had the year and I came back to London. And I joined the ARP as a messenger and I did about a year on that. And then the Home Guard. Both the infantry and rocket sites.
DK: Right. Do you know how old you would have been then?
RB: Well, I left school at sixteen. And so, sixteen to seventeen I went to a Government Training Centre and was on engineering. And then I did a year or so with a machine tool firm who were renovating machine tools. And then 19 — [pause] I actually volunteered in 1943.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: And I went to Cardington for an initial test.
DK: Was, was there any reason why you chose the RAF? Was there any particular reason?
RB: Well —
DK: Rather than the Army or Navy.
RB: No. The only reason, all my friends had gone in to service. Some had been lost. And I thought, well the Air Force, to be honest I was in a Reserved Occupation and you only had three places to go. As an artificer in the Navy. Which meant below decks.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Which I didn’t fancy. Or down in the mines which I didn’t fancy that either.
DK: No.
RB: So, just left the Air Force. But just really all my friends had gone in the services and I thought it was time I went. Signed on in, at Lord’s Cricket Ground and we had about six weeks in Regent’s Park area. Billeted in flats. We had our meals in the Zoo. And then I had six months, I think it was six months at Torquay.
DK: Right.
RB: And then on to St Athan for the engineering course. And then ’44, I went to Swinderby on the initial introduction to flying. And we were on Stirlings for that.
DK: Right. Had you met your crew at this point?
RB: No. I hadn’t got, I was just coming to that.
DK: Oh. Ok. Sorry.
RB: No. They allocated the engineers to the crew at Swinderby.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: And —
DK: So, they’d already crewed up then.
RB: That’s right. Yes. And then we went over to — I forget the name now. Over for the transfer to Lancasters.
DK: Right. Was that the Lancaster Finishing School?
RB: More or less. Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And I think, I forget how long I was there but then we went to, to Skellingthorpe.
DK: Right. Just taking you back a bit. What did you think of the Stirlings as an aeroplane?
RB: Well, I suppose it’s like every. With the Lancaster I was happy. I’d go anywhere in that. And I suppose to anyone who flew in Stirlings they’d have the same attitude. Although it was a bit more vulnerable than —
DK: Yeah.
RB: And my main memory of the Stirling was if we went to a height where it was cold we had pipes with heating coming through and sticking them down your jacket [laughs] But anyway that was the time when D-Day was going.
DK: Right.
RB: And then from Swinderby we went. I went to Skellingthorpe and stayed there ‘til the end of the war.
DK: And that was with 50 Squadron.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And our skipper was a flight lieutenant in [pause] He was a flight commander at the time and then he became CO. And of course as a crew we didn’t fly all that many operations. We did eighteen together.
DK: Right.
RB: But if someone was ill on another crew then we did the extra trips.
DK: Can you remember the pilot’s name?
RB: Yes. He was Flight Lieutenant Flint when I, when I joined. And then he went to wing commander and he became CO of the squadron.
DK: So, he was the CO of 50 Squadron.
RB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Wing Commander Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: Oh right. What was he —
RB: I think he was well known although I didn’t realise at the time. He had a George Cross for rescuing a navigator in a Blenheim, I think it was.
DK: That’s what I thought. Yeah. I recognised the name when you said.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And —
DK: What was he like then?
RB: Sorry?
DK: What was he like?
RB: Well, he wasn’t a person who you made friends with but he was fair. And strict as far as the flying went.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And as a crew we worked pretty well worked together. We were a bit of an odd crowd. One from, the navigator was from Liverpool.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember — can you remember the crew’s name? The navigator’s name.
RB: MacLeod.
DK: MacLeod. Yeah.
RB: Then the two gunners. Tombs and Johnson.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Tombs was a Cockney and I think Johnson came from the Midlands somewhere. And the bomb aimer. He was also from the Midlands.
DK: Right.
RB: He was another Johnson, I think. And myself.
DK: Right. And the wireless operator. Can you remember?
RB: The wireless operator. Yeah. [pause] I can’t remember at the moment. But it might come back as we go through.
DK: Ok. So, so you got on well as a crew then did you?
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah. Yes. The —
DK: Did you, even though he was the CO of the squadron did you socialise at all?
RB: Various. He didn’t socialise with us but on occasions when we were stood down we’d perhaps go in to Nottingham and have a night out.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And that would be the rest of the crew. Not, not the navigator. But the bomb aimer and the gunners.
DK: So, get — could you just talk a little bit about what your role was as the flight engineer? What your job was?
RB: Well, the training they gave us at St Athan was completely new to me because I knew nothing about engines and that was the main part of the course. But in the air we were responsible for the fuel side and according to the book, in the handbook that we got we were supposed to know everything about the, all the aircraft.
DK: Right.
RB: But I, I don’t think we learned all that [laughs]
DK: But you, you knew the important part about the engines and the fuel.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And watching the instruments. See. Keep an eye on them. Make sure they were going alright. We had one occasion when we were running up for, in the morning before going on a raid. And we’d started up the engines. And of course I was looking at the instruments and then I suddenly looked downstairs and the ground crew was jumping up and down. And we’d got steam up from a valve for the coolant that had got stuck.
DK: Right.
RB: So we had to shut that down. But apart from that they [pause] we didn’t really have much problem with the aircraft itself. The ground crew did a good job.
DK: Did you still go on that operation with the coolant problem?
RB: With the —
DK: The coolant.
RB: Oh No.
DK: No.
RB: No. They settled that in the —
DK: It wasn’t fixed for you to then take-off.
RB: No.
DK: No. No.
RB: No. We were ok. And then that more or less happened all the way through. The only time that [pause] I went on a briefing side for one operation and I went out to the runway where they, where they had the waving the aircraft off. And we had the 61 Squadron. One of their aircraft it went off and then it circled around and for some reason something had gone wrong and they landed down. Everything went up. The only, the rear gunner was left on the edge of the crater. So, overall my view of the operations was that it was a bit of a lottery whether you survived or not.
DK: So how many operations in total did you fly?
RB: Eighteen.
DK: Eighteen. Can you remember any of the targets?
RB: The — ?
DK: The targets.
RB: Well, that was a problem really in those days because bombing was not an accurate thing. They’d mark the site.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And if the flares got put out or the wind took them away so you had a creep affect. And whether you hit the actual target or not was a —
DK: No.
RB: You wouldn’t know.
DK: Were most of your operations in daylight or, or night time?
RB: I’ve got a logbook here.
DK: Ah. You’ve got the logbook.
[pause]
RB: That’s all the training.
DK: Right. That’s all — so, you were with 1660 Conversion Unit then.
RB: Sorry?
DK: 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit.
RB: Yes.
DK: 1660.
RB: Yes. Oh sorry.
DK: So, that’s at Swinderby.
RB: Syerston.
DK: Syerston.
RB: Swinderby then Syerston.
DK: Right. Ok. So, Syerston and then Swinderby.
RB: Yes.
DK: Right. Ok. So, there’s your pilot there then. Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: Flight lieutenant then.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So in green is the war operations then. So, red. Red’s at night isn’t it? And green —
RB: That’s night.
DK: Red’s night and green is daylight.
RB: That’s daylight.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, that’s 19th July ‘44. That’s in France. Creil. C R E I L. That says PFF Pathfinder Force poor.
RB: [laughs] I’ll just get my other glasses.
DK: Ok.
[pause]
RB: Getting blind as well as deaf.
DK: I can, I can read it to you. It’s ok. So, just going through this then we’ve got 19th of July 1944.
RB: Yes.
DK: War operations. And it’s a flying bomb dump near to Creil in France. And it says PFF poor. So, that’s Pathfinder Force poor.
RB: Yes. That’s, that was the, I forget what that was now. PFF. I think that was to do with if enemy aircraft were around.
DK: Right. Was that the Pathfinder Force?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Was that the Pathfinder Force?
RB: The — ?
DK: Pathfinder Force.
RB: I can’t remember now.
DK: You can’t remember. I think it probably is. So, then you’ve got —
RB: Let’s see where that was, shall we?
DK: So you’ve got PFF poor there but the next raid PFF good. I think that’s, that is the Pathfinder Force.
RB: Flying bomb.
DK: Yeah.
RB: That might be the Pathfinders. I’m sure. Yes. Yes.
DK: The Pathfinder. Yes. Yes.
RB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: That’s saying PFF is poor.
RB: Yeah.
DK: PFF good on that one.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So the next raid is 20th July ’44 and it’s the railway marshalling yards in Belgium.
RB: Yes.
DK: PFF good. And then July the 24th.
RB: St Nazaire.
DK: St Nazaire. Oil storage dumps. July the 25th St Cyr Airfield. That’s C Y R.
RB: St Cyr. Versailles.
DK: Yeah. Versailles. Cyr. St Cyr Airfield. July 26th — that’s the railway junction and marshalling yards in France.
RB: Yes.
DK: And the 31st of July war operations.
RB: Reims.
DK: Reims. Reims. Yeah. Good results it says.
RB: Yes.
DK: And carrying on. So August the 16th —
RB: Yes. Stettin.
DK: Stettin. Built up area. So, August the 19th the Pallice. La Pallice.
RB: Oil storage.
DK: Oil storage. And then August the 31st — flying bomb dump again.
RB: I can’t remember where that place was.
DK: All on the French coast somewhere. For the, for the recording —
RB: Yes.
DK: I’m not going to try and pronounce this but I’ll spell it it’s B E R G E N E U S E. That’s somewhere in France.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, you landed back at Ford then. You didn’t get back to base.
RB: Yes. Well, on that operation we had the wing commander’s bomb aimer with us. And we were just coming away from that site and there was a single shot and as luck would have it the bomb aimer caught shrapnel in his head. And that’s why we landed at Ford.
DK: Was it, was he ok?
RB: Well, I didn’t keep up in touch with him. It’s like everything else. People were injured or went on a flight. Once they’d gone.
DK: That’s it.
RB: That was it.
DK: So, you got a replacement bomb aimer presumably.
RB: Well, that was on the way home fortunately.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok. So, then 24th of September 1944. Target — defensive enemy positions at Calais.
RB: Yes.
DK: And that time you were diverted back to Westcott.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So then, 6th of October. Target — Bremen.
RB: Bremen.
DK: Built up area. Yeah. And then the 1st of November. Target — Hamburg. Synthetic oil plants.
RB: Yes.
DK: Then 4th of December. Heilbronn. That’s H E I L.
RB: Heilbronn. Yeah.
DK: H E I L B R O N N. Heilbronn. So, that was the area bombing then. The target area. Then 30th of December —
RB: Yes.
DK: That’s, that’s Germany again isn’t it?
RB: That was when the troops were advancing on.
DK: I’ll spell this for the benefit of the recording. It’s H O U F F A L I Z E.
RB: I think on that because the troops, they weren’t sure where the troops were.
DK: Yeah.
RB: We, we went, we were briefed for the operation and then it was called off. We then had breakfast. Bacon and egg. Brought on again. Back to the mess for another meal.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And this happened three times [laughs]
DK: You had three breakfasts.
RB: Yeah. We were egg bound by that time.
DK: So, so the target was German troops in salient.
RB: Yes.
DK: So it was tactical bombing of the German troops.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And just here it says here on the 30th of December operation, it says severe icing conditions.
RB: Yes.
DK: So, did that cause any problems to your aircraft?
RB: Not really. We had the heating system which helped to get rid of it. But you can hear the bits flaking off.
DK: And then 4th of January 1945 war operations. Target — Royan. R O Y A N. South West France. German troop concentrations. And then again, 6th of January German troop concentrations in the salient. They were being hammered a bit weren’t they? So, 13th of January 1945 — Politz. P O L I T Z. Oil refineries. 14th of January — Marsberg. Oil refineries again.
RB: Yeah. They were two long flights.
DK: Politz is in Poland isn’t it? I think.
RB: Sorry?
DK: Politz. Isn’t it in Poland?
RB: I’m not sure exactly where but it was certainly —
DK: Well, in the east. Yeah.
RB: It was in the east.
DK: Yeah.
RB: In the eastern area.
DK: And then on the so that’s the 13th to Politz and then the 14th to Marsberg
RB: Yes. Merseburg.
DK: Merseburg. Sorry. Merseburg. Merseburg. And it mentions here concentrated flak. Diverted.
RB: On that one we were Window crew. So, you went around once dropping the Window and then came back to do the second trip.
DK: So, you dropped, so you dropped your bombs on the second time around?
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: So, you had to go over the target twice?
RB: Yes. And then with two long trips.
DK: Yeah. Well the one on the 13th of January. That’s eleven hours five minutes. And the one on the 14th of January that’s ten hours [pause] So, I think that’s all of your operations there, isn’t it?
RB: There was bringing ex-prisoners back.
DK: So, that was your last operation there then. So, then you went on to Operation Exodus.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Do you, do you remember picking up the Prisoners of War?
RB: On that one.
DK: Yeah. The 26th of April 1945.
RB: That one we were actually service crew.
DK: Right.
RB: So we didn’t bring anybody back on that one. But on this one we brought.
DK: So, there’s another trip.
RB: Yes.
DK: Brussels again.
RB: So, we stayed the night at —
DK: Yeah.
RB: Westcott.
DK: So, on the 26th of April ’45 it actually says you returned with twenty four ex-POWs. So, what sort of states were they in?
RB: Well, they were very quiet. We didn’t really have a lot to do with them. We just kept in touch with them. Seeing they were alright on the flight. But they were quiet on the main.
DK: Yeah. So another Exodus then on the 6th of May. So, at this point the war has ended then.
RB: Yes.
DK: You did a trip to Italy then after the war has ended.
RB: Yeah. That was to bring more [pause] more troops back.
DK: Troops back. Yeah. That was Operation Dodge, I think, wasn’t it? Bringing the army —
RB: Yeah.
DK: Back from Italy. And then that’s it. So, that was your last operation here. Well, not operation. Your last flight I should say. 28th August 1945. So, did —
RB: We had, that was one of the few occasions when we had any problem with the aircraft. The wireless operator had smoke coming from his area.
DK: Oh right.
RB: And we thought we were going to have two or three days in Pomigliano.
DK: Right.
RB: But they did the dirty on us and got it ready [laughs]
DK: Would you have liked to have stayed a bit longer then?
RB: Yeah. Well, we went to [pause] because we were near Sorrento.
DK: Right.
RB: And we hitchhiked to a junction. And then we got another hitch to Sorrento. We had a meal there. And I, we had, we didn’t see a lot of Sorrento but the main thing there’s no sand there. It’s as a result of the Vesuvius eruption.
DK: Oh right. Ok. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
RB: And there was all dust really.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
RB: But —
DK: So that was on, that was on the 27th of July 1945.
RB: Yeah.
DK: And you come back from Italy then with twenty.
RB: Twenty persons.
DK: Twenty passengers. People on board.
RB: Ex-soldiers.
DK: So, they were soldiers.
RB: Yes.
DK: Coming back from Italy. Yeah.
RB: And I was with another pilot.
DK: Oh right. Yeah. So, that’s Flight Lieutenant Lundy. So had Flint left by this point then? Because you did the Exodus —
RB: Yes.
DK: Once with Flint there.
RB: Yes.
DK: But the Dodge flights were with Lundy.
RB: I’m just looking to see the other pilots we were with. There was one. That was another one.
DK: So you’ve got Groves. Flying Officer Syd Groves, Flying Officer Wells and Flying Officer Boyle.
RB: Boyle.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So it’s eighteen operations.
RB: I think the rest were — there was Flying Officer Wells.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Another. Another officer there.
DK: Arden. Yeah. So you flew with a number of different pilots.
RB: That’s right, yes.
DK: But did you have the same crew and just a different pilot or were they –
RB: Sorry?
DK: Did you have the same crew and a different pilot?
RB: That was at the beginning.
DK: Right.
RB: We did the twelve. Well, yeah the twelve operations with our own skipper.
DK: Right.
RB: And then the rest were these.
DK: Right. Ok.
RB: Odd ones.
DK: So, the first twelve were with Flint.
RB: Yes.
DK: And then the other six with various other pilots.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Were you, were you ever attacked by German fighters at all?
RB: Sorry?
DK: Were you ever attacked by German fighters?
RB: No. The only time when we took evasion action we weren’t sure. and we had the rear gunner — he gave a warning and we did a corkscrew. But apart from that — no.
DK: And can, can you recall the aircraft being hit by flak at all?
RB: Well, as I say there was that one when the bomb aimer got hit. And I myself because, because we had the blip. The [pause] on the windows we had the, where you could look out and see down.
DK: The blister.
RB: That’s right. Yes. And I was looking out at, we had some flak coming up and I felt a little something going, graze the head. But that was the nearest I had to anything to do with the flak.
DK: So you got hit by a little piece then.
RB: Just a little bit. Yeah. So I was dead lucky.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But after all it was all dead lucky really. I knew you had the — you were given a course in the briefing and you had to turn at certain points etcetera. And some pilots, they get ahead of time so they wanted to lose it and they’d be flying across the stream. No lights at all.
DK: No.
RB: So whether anybody got put down by a crash or —
DK: A collision.
RB: Collision. I don’t know. But it could have happened.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then we had another. The aircraft had returned from the, from an operation and they still had their bombs on board. And the ground crew were putting this aircraft to bed and something happened. Up it went and the ground crew were killed. So you never knew from the time you took off ‘til the time you got back to bed.
DK: So, that happened at Skellingthorpe, did it?
RB: That’s right.
DK: The aircraft exploded.
RB: Yeah.
DK: And a number of the ground crew killed.
RB: That was the ground crew. Yeah.
DK: So how do, how do you look back in your time in the RAF now then?
RB: Well, it was certainly interesting. But I don’t think bombing as such is the beginning and end of a war. And there’s Johnny Johnson, the bomb aimer, he got the MBE or OBE.
DK: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
RB: And I thought myself because I’d had the clasp for Bomber Command and I thought that was a better idea because that was for operations.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I always thought that the MBE and all those Birthday Honours were for services to civil life and of course I had reservations about —because things weren’t accurate. There were probably innocent people getting killed.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And, and there was an aspect that, well you got on with the job. You couldn’t do anything about that but at the same time I didn’t feel it was quite right. And having seen some of the bombing in London when we were living there and some of our friends got bombed. Nothing to do with the war. So from that aspect I’m not sure about bombing at all.
DK: No.
RB: But there we go. It was a job they wanted done.
DK: Yeah.
RB: You did it.
DK: So what was your career? Did you leave the RAF at that point then or —
RB: Yeah. I left. I only did four years. The two years of the war. That’s 1943 to ’45. And then I had a spell at Hereford. And then there was an admin course. And then I got posted to West Africa. And I was there for a year.
DK: Right.
RB: And when I came back the — that was demob time.
DK: And what, what was your career after that? What did you do?
RB: I’ve been a draughtsman for most of the time.
DK: Oh right.
RB: On the electrical side. I joined what was [Bridge Johnson Hewstone?] when I came back. No. I went to Napier’s first of all. And I was doing drawings for design etcetera. And it was then I went to Bridge Johnson Hewstone because Napier’s were getting rid of a few people.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then I was with [pause] they, they moved to North London. And then they closed that down. They moved up to Blackpool.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I was redundant then. I went to an electrical. Honeywell Electrics.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And then we were living in Hertfordshire at the time. And the [pause] then I got a job at Luton Airport with Hunting Aircraft.
DK: Oh right.
RB: And then they moved. So, and I finished up with the, an Italian firm Snamprogetti on, they were petrol installations.
DK: Right.
RB: And I was there and that was the finish of work in ‘87.
DK: So, just going back a little bit now if I may. I asked you about the Stirling.
RB: Yes.
DK: And what it was like to fly. What was the Lancaster like to fly?
RB: It was, I suppose one would say it almost flew itself. It wasn’t a comfortable position as far as the engineer was concerned but —
DK: Yes. As a flight engineer did you used to sit down or were you standing up?
RB: Yeah. We had a seat.
DK: Yeah.
RB: That you could fold up from the side.
DK: Right.
RB: You sat beside the —
DK: Pilot.
RB: The pilot yes. And you had the undercarriage and throttles which we helped with the take off.
DK: So, so when the pilot’s taking off then you’re helping with the throttles.
RB: Yes.
DK: And would you raise the undercarriage when you were up or would he do that?
RB: Yes. Yeah.
DK: You’d do that?
RB: As far as the throttles were concerned the pilot did the initial take-off thing, but you followed him up and when he got to the stage he was wanting full blast then you finished it through to the end.
DK: Right.
RB: And after that he, apart from synchronising the engines the pilot had control.
DK: Control. So on your right then you’ve got all the various dials.
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: And what are those dials telling you then? Are they —
RB: That was fuel contents. I forget what the rest did. That was the main thing that we were interested in.
DK: So your job is always to make sure you’ve got enough fuel to get back.
RB: Yes. Because you had to transfer fuel through from one tank to another at one stage.
DK: Right. And what about landing though, did you help the pilot land at all? Or —
RB: With the flaps. He’d call for the flaps and you’d operate that one. But apart from that the pilot was in control.
DK: Yeah. So, were your pilots very good then? Were they? Mostly?
RB: Well, some took a few chances I think [laughs] There was one, whether he actually did it or not they reckoned he did the loop the loop in the Lancaster but I take that with a bit of salt.
DK: You mentioned just before I put the recording on about somebody who was smoking.
RB: Yes. But that was the navigator but —
DK: Because you’re not allowed to smoke on the aircraft are you?
RB: Well, certainly not with our skipper.
DK: No.
RB: Well, it was so silly really. I mean, you had this main spar and the navigator sat just forward of it.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And there was a valve. So if you had a leakage goodness knows what would happen.
DK: Oh right. So the pilot smelled the smoke then did he?
RB: That’s right. Yes.
DK: Did he tell him off?
RB: Yes. And he was, he was another flight lieutenant.
DK: But I am correct in saying that regardless of rank the pilot is always in charge isn’t he?
RB: Well, yes. As far as we were concerned. Yes.
DK: Yeah. So you might have other crew that outranks him but the pilot’s still in charge.
RB: Could be. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I don’t think it happened very often.
DK: So you were quite pleased with Flint then. You thought he was a good —
RB: Sorry?
DK: You thought that Flint — Flint was a good pilot.
RB: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah.
DK: I know who you mean. He’s the holder of the George Cross isn’t he?
RB: Sorry?
DK: He’s got the George Cross.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yeah. I only realised that [pause] I was looking at an Antiques Roadshow I think it was and they were at Lincoln Cathedral. And he was there with the, with these medals that he’d got.
DK: Oh right. So did you stay in touch with the crew after the war?
RB: No. The only, I did at one time. They, they were doing a Memorial at Skellingthorpe.
DK: Yeah.
RB: And I offered help but they didn’t take it up. And when they had the actual ceremony I went up there but I didn’t get involved in —
DK: Right.
RB: In anything, and I met the squadron navigator who had been on 61 Squadron as well as 50. And I saw the skipper. He was marching up with the crowd to a meal or something and I waved to him [laughs]
DK: That was —
RB: That was the only time that I actually saw him to speak to.
DK: So you did — that’s Flint you waved to.
RB: That was Flint. Yeah.
DK: Did he wave back?
RB: Yeah.
DK: Oh.
RB: Well, he shouted out, ‘Are you coming up for — ’
DK: Yeah.
RB: But I wasn’t sure whether I was going to make it or not.
DK: No.
RB: But the only other time I saw him, when they did the Memorial in Green Park in London.
DK: Right.
RB: I went up to that.
DK: Right.
RB: And it was quite a hot day and —
DK: Yeah. I was there.
RB: Were you?
DK: Yeah.
RB: And because I was a bit daft really. I didn’t have any hat or anything. And I I wasn’t feeling all that well and in the end so I didn’t get a chance to speak to him but —
DK: That was a shame.
RB: But he was in a invalid chair. A bit hunched up then. And I think it was either that year or the following year that he died. So I didn’t get in to speak to anybody after that.
DK: No. What did you think of the Memorial at Green Park?
RB: Well, it’s quite impressive.
DK: Are you pleased Bomber Command are being recognised now after all these years?
RB: Well, yes. It’s fair enough. I mean fifty five thousand people gone. And —
DK: But obviously there’s the two big Memorials now. There’s the Green Park one.
RB: Sorry?
DK: There’s two Memorials now. There’s Green Park and the new one in Lincoln.
RB: And the one in Lincoln. Yes. Yes. The one, the one I saw in Lincoln my friends were going up to Leeds and I said , ‘Would you give me a lift to somewhere near Lincoln and leave me there and you go on up.’ And they said, ‘No. We’re not going to do that. And they went up to the actual site.
DK: Oh right.
RB: Of course it wasn’t open to the public.
DK: Right. You saw it close up though did you?
RB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Well, it stands right out.
DK: Yeah.
RB: There’s a hotel nearby which —
DK: So, you haven’t actually been yet then to see it close up.
RB: No.
DK: Oh. I’ll have to try and arrange something then.
RB: Because they are running the tours for them.
DK: Running the tours.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: I might do that at some stage.
DK: Yeah. I’ll have a word with them when I get back. Because obviously we’ve got the main opening in April so hopefully you can come along to that.
RB: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Oh, ok then. I think that’s that’s everything. That’s been very interesting.
RB: No exciting moments.
DK: Trust me it’s all very exciting. I always like the logbooks. How do feel looking back at this thinking that was you?
RB: Sorry?
DK: How do you feel looking back in this logbook thinking that was, that was you? You did that.
RB: I’m sorry?
DK: How do you look feel looking in the logbook knowing that you did that?
RB: Well, I’m glad I did it. If only we sort of remember all the people who I’ve known and lost. And after all you’d have surviving these is a matter, as I say of luck. You can be on the last flight. Gone. Or you can come into the squadron, you do your training, go on the first flight.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Never got to know them.
DK: Yeah. Can I just —
RB: But I may have got some photos of the crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
[pause]
RB: Some misguided person sent me that book [laughs]
DK: For the recording it’s, “How To Fly a Second World War Heavy Bomber.”
RB: [laughs] It covers the Stirling, Halifax and —
DK: Yeah. As if you didn’t know.
[pause]
RB: Now, there’s the training flights.
DK: Right. Ok. You’ve got a photo here. It’s, so it’s A flight, 4 Squadron.
RB: That was at Torquay.
DK: Number 21 ITW.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Torquay.
[pause]
DK: Oh, there you are. RG Barnes.
RB: Yeah.
DK: So, you’re one two three four five six seven. One two three four five six seven. Is that you there?
RB: That’s it. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh right. Ok.
RB: That’s the crew.
DK: That is. Yeah.
RB: That’s skipper.
DK: So that’s, that’s your Lancaster there.
RB: That’s right. Near
DK: That’s T.
RB: Well, we flew in different aircraft all the time. There’s no one aircraft allocated.
DK: Because 50 Squadron’s codes were VN, weren’t they?
RB: Sorry?
DK: 50 Squadron’s code were VN.
RB: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Yes.
DK: Oh wow.
RB: That’s another one.
DK: [unclear] That one. LN29. Oh, they’re great these photos are. So, can you, can you name the crew here?
RB: That’s the bomb aimer.
DK: Bomb aimer.
RB: Johnson.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Navigator — Macleod. That’s me.
DK: Right.
RB: Skipper.
DK: So, that’s, that’s Flint.
RB: Flint. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
RB: Tombs. That’s Johnson. And I still can’t remember the bomb aimer’s name.
DK: Or was that the wireless operator?
RB: Wireless operator.
DK: Ok.
RB: Yeah.
DK: Right. I know the [pause] Yeah. That’s, that’s T as well isn’t it? The reason I mention this is you know the Royal Air Force’s Lancaster that’s still flying?
RB: Yes.
DK: Well, they’ve painted it in new codes as 50 Squadron’s VN T. So, I think they’ve put it in the markings of your old aircraft.
RB: Oh.
DK: VN T. I’ll ask them.
RB: The only time I’ve had a [pause] we had a neighbour where I was living in, before coming here and he was an engineering NCO at Abingdon. And they were renovating a Lancaster there.
DK: Yeah. It would be the same one.
RB: So, and he said, ‘Would you like to come over and have a look?’ So —
DK: Did you go on board?
RB: [laughs] Yes.
DK: Right. What did you think seeing it again after all these years?
RB: Sorry?
DK: What did you think seeing it again after all these years?
RB: That brought back memories.
DK: Ok. I’ll turn this off now. I think we’ve said enough but thanks very much for your time on that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Barnes. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarnesR170803, PBarnesR1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:49:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Barnes was working in a Reserved Occupation and so knew the only way he could join the RAF was to volunteer for aircrew. Before he volunteered he was also a member of the ARP and Home Guard. Robert trained as a flight engineer and was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. Robert’s pilot was James Flint DFC GM DFM who became the Commanding Officer of 50 Squadron.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Merseburg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
50 Squadron
Air Raid Precautions
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
navigator
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Swinderby
RAF Torquay
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/702/9284/PBeecherC1801.2.jpg
18ffd29fc10d9f9907ac3f2987ae60a3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/702/9284/ABeecherC180614.2.mp3
32ee770cb5e904374684c288885d2c5e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beecher, Charles
C Beecher
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Charles Beecher (b.1925, 3040139 Royal Air Force). He served as a wireless mechanic with 578 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Beecher, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Good morning. This is Gary Rushbrooke for the IBCC, and Lincoln University. It’s the 14th of June 2018 and I’m in Selby with Mr Charles Beecher. Charles we’re in Selby. Was you born in Selby or —
CB: No. I’m a native of Wakefield in the West Riding as used to be.
GR: Right.
CB: Born in Wakefield. We came with my family, my wife and children to Selby. My work brought me here in 1962.
GR: 1962.
CB: And living here, a Selbyan [unclear]
GR: Yeah.
CB: When we first came here oh, you’re not a Selbyan until you’ve been here at least twenty-five years which seemed a long time.
GR: But it flies by. Yeah.
CB: But we’ve been, I’ve been here now fifty-five years, fifty-six years.
GR: So, born in Wakefield. Brothers and sisters?
CB: An elder brother, Robert. Two years older. He was in the Army in the last war. Did three and a half years North Africa, Italy, Europe, and so on. He was a signalman on the railway so they said, ‘Right, you’re, you’re in the Royal Corps of Signals in the Army.’
GR: Yeah.
CB: And so he got an early release back here because of his occupation, he was [unclear] so he was eligible.
GR: And obviously you were brought up in Wakefield. School in Wakefield?
CB: Yes. Ings Road Central. I, I just didn’t pass my Eleven Plus apparently so they, I got the next tier down, which was a Central School, Ings Road Central in, in Wakefield itself.
GR: Yeah.
CB: The school is now gone of course. A big shopping complex has taken its place.
GR: So, if I remember rightly born in 1925.
CB: Yes.
GR: So, at school and growing up in 1930s Wakefield.
CB: Very much so. Yes.
GR: Yeah. What age was you when you left school?
CB: Fourteen.
GR: Fourteen.
CB: Yes. I was fourteen in 1939. May.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And I started work in the beginning of September. Virtually the day the last war broke out.
GR: Broke out, yeah.
CB: Yeah. Early September.
GR: Early September.
CB: I remember it really very clearly.
GR: What did you, what was your first job? What did you do?
CB: I was a junior, an office junior with, let me recollect. Yes, a textile company. Loads of textile companies, factories in those days, all in the West Riding.
GR: Yeah.
CB: This was Target Knitting Wool. It was a big, a big concern. Made a massive range of knitting wools and the like and I started off in the time office. Office junior.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Recording the employees. I think we had about two hundred and fifty. Something like that. Mainly female obviously and I used to record the times and all the wages.
GR: The wages and things. Yeah.
CB: And I got promoted into a higher grade, a different office, where I was until I was called up in the Air Force.
GR: Right.
CB: Immediately. Well, about three weeks after my eighteenth birthday.
GR: Yeah.
CB: As I said earlier, I had volunteered twice through my Air Training Corps service with 127 Squadron in Wakefield.
GR: Yeah.
CB: A very good squadron, and all my mates and so we did aircrew training — theory of flight, ICE, electrics, navigation, astronomy, the whole range.
GR: Sounds like air training.
CB: Yeah.
GR: Cadets. Air Training Corps. Yeah.
CB: Very interesting, and we, we lightened the occasion by having social events with the Women’s Junior Air Corps, which was the young lady’s equivalent.
GR: Yeah.
CB: That’s where I met my wife actually.
GR: Right.
CB: In those days.
GR: Just going back a little bit so when war broke out in September ’39.
CB: Yes.
GR: And you were just starting work.
CB: Yes.
GR: Was your brother called up straight away? Or what was it like — ?
CB: He was called up earlier.
GR: Right.
CB: Yes. Being two years older he was called up virtually two years before I did.
GR: Yeah.
CB: I think. Yes.
GR: So, he’d be about 19 —
CB: Yes.
GR: ’40, 41.
CB: Yes. He saw service in North Africa through to Italy.
GR: Yeah. What was it like in Wakefield? Wars broke out. You’re a youngster of fourteen, fifteen years of age.
CB: Yes.
GR: How did the war affect you? You know, was it —
CB: Not a, not a great deal of course. Not like the Battle of Britain days.
GR: No.
CB: When obviously, the people of the south of England were affected.
GR: Were affected by the bombing.
CB: Yes,
GR: Yeah.
CB: No. Life went on.
GR: Yeah.
CB: We just kept in touch with the way the war was going which wasn’t very good.
GR: No.
CB: It was one setback after another and, and of course we had Dunkirk.
GR: Yes.
CB: I recall clearly my father, our father was in the First World War in the Army for almost three years I believe. He survived and came back, and married my mother. Our mother, who was a lass from Cambridge.
GR: Right.
CB: After the war finished, the First World War finished she came north from Cambridge looking for work, domestic, and met dad I think in about 1920. Just after the —
GR: After the war finished.
CB: War finished, and they married in ’21.
GR: Right.
CB: Bob was born in ’23 and I was born in —
GR: ’25. Yeah.
CB: ’25, of course.
GR: Yeah
CB: And so, I’m mixed. I’m half Cambridge and half Yorkshire.
GR: And half Yorkshire. So, yeah. And you were saying about you joined the ATC. What made you join the ATC? So, obviously 1940/41.
CB: Yeah.
GR: You’re keeping an eye on the war.
CB: I was very good friends with a very lively young fella, Sammy. Sammy Holmes. I remember him well. A great, great friend of mine at work. He was in one of the other offices and we got on very well. And I think he was that little bit older and he joined the 127 Squadron and he talked me in to joining. And, yeah we had great times and he went on to become, he was trained as pilot apparently and very, very sadly I learned quite some time later he was killed in, he was changed to a glider pilot.
GR: Right.
CB: And he ended up in the Far East as a glider pilot and lost his life in a glider crash.
GR: In a glider crash. Yeah.
CB: In India.
GR: Oh dear.
CB: Sadly.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Samuel Harry Holmes. Such a lovely fella.
GR: So, he got you in to the ATC.
CB: He got me in to the ATC.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And yeah, we had good times. We had parades through town quite frequent. Sunday morning parade. Church parades with the other militaries and so on. I, I bought myself a cornet and joined the band.
GR: Right.
CB: Which was good. We had some good outings there. He was that bit older and he, he volunteered as all of us did.
GR: Yeah.
CB: In the squadron. Oh yeah. Aircrew. Aircrew yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Trained for aircrew. We’re going to be pilots or navigators.
GR: That’s what, that’s what you wanted to do.
CB: Or navigators or —
GR: Yeah.
CB: If the worst came to the worst, wireless operator.
GR: Operator. Yeah.
CB: Or, or a lonely air gunner.
GR: Gunner.
CB: Yeah. But it wasn’t to be for me. My eyes were just not up to it.
GR: And, so did you —
CB: I joined, you know bottom of the list is the air gunner, ‘Can’t I be an air gunner?’ ‘Not with your eyesight,’ they said.
GR: So, from ATC you actually volunteered.
CB: Twice actually.
GR: For aircrew duty.
CB: And then rejected. So, I thought well, they’ll call me up in three months at eighteen anyway.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And as I say. I was called up about three weeks after.
GR: Called up by the RAF obviously.
CB: By The RAF.
GR: Yeah.
CB: But the danger there was you’d be called up. You can either be in the Army, the Navy or the Air Force, or you could be a Bevin Boy.
GR: Yes.
CB: In the mines, of course. The West Riding, Wakefield were all mines, and I thought, oh dear. I don’t fancy that.
GR: I think it was one in ten.
CB: Yes.
GR: One in ten went down the mines.
CB: Ah yes. I thought I’d been in the ATC for eighteen months —
GR: So, your call up was a general call up. It wasn’t though when you said you couldn’t get in to the RAF, you just waited to be called up and by chance it was the RAF.
CB: Yes. I think the fact I’d been with the ATC.
GR: The ATC.
CB: For eighteen.
GR: Yeah.
CB: I think that was my biggest influence.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And done the eighteen months training with them as it were, and so yes that’s how I —
GR: Can you remember where you had to report to?
CB: Oh, very clearly. The BBC at Doncaster.
GR: Right.
CB: I reported there at as I say just after my eighteenth birthday with lots of others just joining up, and a motlier assortment [laughs] and we were in this little dormitory room with metal bunk beds and I was on the top one. And I, I recall pretty clearly sitting on the edge of the bunk bed in all these strange surroundings, strange people, everything strange and for a few seconds I was homesick. The only time in my life I’ve been homesick.
GR: Right.
CB: And I thought, ‘Come on Charles. Pull yourself together.’
GR: Yeah.
CB: You’re in the Air Force now and it went as quickly as it came. And, yeah from there they took us down to Cardington.
GR: Yeah.
CB: The kitting out place. So, I spent maybe a couple of days down there, or maybe a bit longer and up there I was posted to Skegness to do the initial training. Square bashing.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Nine weeks, I think.
GR: Nine weeks. Yeah.
CB: At Skegness, by which time it was getting into autumn. A bit wintry. A bit cold. And we were billeted in these small hotels. Guest houses and what have you. Oh, this is nice. Yeah. Not bad at all. We went in to this small place. I can recall. I know just where it is. Went back to have a look at it many years later with my wife. It’s still there.
GR: Still there.
CB: Just off the, just off the beach. Not far off. And, ‘Oh yes. This is fine.’ I think there was six of us in this small place. Yeah. The place was bare. Absolutely. No doors. The doors had been stripped off, chopped up for firewood from the earlier people who had been there in the winters.
GR: Right.
CB: And they’d chopped the doors off. Everything that would burn, everything wooden had been stripped off. No carpets of course. No this. No that. Just the bare essentials. Bunk beds. Metal beds.
GR: Yeah.
CB: So that was a bit of an eye opener [laughs] and the winter was coming on and, but we all survived of course.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Had to. The NCOs were a bit variable. Some were pleasant. One or two were rather nasty.
GR: Right.
CB: And on a couple of occasions I got cross with, one was a sergeant, one was a corporal and I got a right old rollicking from, from them. That’s, that’s life, Charles. Get on with it. Yes, did nine weeks I think it was. And from there I got posted to a holding station in Shropshire waiting to go on. ‘You’ve been allocated to a wireless mechanic’s course.’ I thought yes, fair dos.
GR: Because that was my next question. Up to this stage you didn’t know what you were going to be doing.
CB: No. I didn’t.
GR: No.
CB: It was a case of wait and see and I thought oh, wireless mechanic. Yes. I’ll settle for that.
GR: Yeah.
CB: But it was a waiting job to go on the course, which turned out to be at Number 8 Radio School in South Kensington in London. So, I spent [pause] oh possibly the best part of the, at least two months in this [pause] it was an RS station. Wait a minute.
GR: Like a small training camp or —
CB: Yeah. It was an airfield actually. We were on the edge of. But that was it. Yes. Yes. I’m in sequence now. Yes. Waiting to go on the course.
GR: Yeah.
CB: But the first part of it was in Leicester. They had a Radio School there at, at the big Civic Centre there.
GR: Right.
CB: And we were billeted out with civilians. There were four of us. There was Jock, Taffy, and myself, and a Lancastrian.
GR: Right.
CB: A Liverpudlian. I remember he had a right old Liverpudlian accent.
GR: Accent.
CB: Smoked like a trooper.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And we were there billeted with Mrs Cheney, Mrs Cheney.
GR: Was she the landlady?
CB: She was the landlady and her, her very subdued husband. We hardly ever saw him. They were an elderly couple.
GR: Yeah.
CB: They’d be in their early sixties. Around about sixties.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Now, they, if I might digress just.
GR: Yeah. You —
CB: They had a daughter. She was slightly backward, I think. Pleasant enough. Typical of the people in those days. And of course, she’d had young Air Force lads in for quite some time prior to us arriving.
GR: Yes. Yeah. She —
CB: And one, one not very nice young fella obviously, he’d, he’d got the daughter, I can’t remember her name, he got her in to bed. Got in her in the family way and he got a posting up to Scotland.
GR: Right.
CB: And she used to write to him and contact him about the baby that was coming. No response. He didn’t want to know did he?
GR: No. No.
CB: Of course. I don’t know how that worked out but I recall she was very, she got very distressed and, ‘He hasn’t replied to my letters. No. I don’t understand why, why he doesn’t, doesn’t respond.’ So that was part of my learning curve as well.
GR: Right.
CB: Of life. And so, we were there about three months. Yes. We used to go into this, I can’t just recall the building.
GR: No. And was this learning how radios worked?
CB: That’s right. Yes. Very good instructors.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Very good instructors. And then we got a transfer to Number 8 Radio School for the final four or five months, something like that of the course, which went well. We were similarly in the small hotel immediately behind the Albert Hall and that was good. We, we did the training. We did physical exercise. We did sports just across the road in Hyde Park.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Football and running and what have you. Very pleasant. And the course went on.
GR: And this would have been probably what early 1944.
CB: Yes. it would have been. Yes.
GR: Had the V-1s and the —
CB: Correct. Yes.
GR: Started dropping. Yeah.
CB: We used to do fire watch drill duty on the roof.
GR: Right.
CB: Of the buildings. Lots of people did. Factories. Because the, the bombs were coming down.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And the incendiaries. So everywhere had fire watch to put the incendiaries out. And one of my mates had been on the previous night and he was, he was full of it, ‘Oh, I’ve seen, we’ve seen this plane. It was low. Flying low and it was on fire. And it came from the East there and it went over the west side there getting lower and lower, and we don’t know what happened to it but it was, it’s a small plane.’ I said, ‘Not a bomber or nothing?’ ‘No. No. A small plane. And of course, we learned very, very shortly —
GR: A doodlebug.
CB: That, that was one of the early doodlebugs.
GR: Yeah.
CB: The V-1s.
GR: Yeah.
CB: It was the plane on fire.
GR: Yeah. The jet coming out of the back.
CB: Yeah. The back. He thought it was a plane. But, and in the succeeding weeks and two or three months the number of V-1s coming down got more and more.
GR: More. Yeah.
CB: And closer and closer. We had two or three close. Very close to where we were billeted.
GR: Yeah.
CB: In the area. In fact, if we were in Hyde Park there you could, you could hear the [noise] And, ‘Oh, there’s another one coming over. There it is.’ Yeah. Up at about, not too high, you could make them out.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Probably about three to four thousand feet.
GR: It was when the noise stopped you had to worry wasn’t it?
CB: Yes.
GR: Because that was it.
CB: Then silence. Oh hell. Ah. Its over there so it won’t be coming down here. But we did, we had quite a few or several I recall that, was it down Cromwell Road? Only a hundred and fifty yards from, two hundred yards from where we were billeted. It had come down on this block of flats and made a hell of a mess and had quite a lot of casualties, civilian casualties. Because we used to pass it on the way down to the dining. The dining area.
GR: Right.
CB: Where we used to eat. We used to form up, march and march down the road to our meals and we used to pass it, you know
GR: Yeah.
CB: It came down there. And I think seven or eight people lost their lives. But yeah, so, the powers that be after a period of this. Maybe two or three months, whatever decided it was getting a bit too close and they said, ‘Well, you’ve two months to do on your course. We’re sending you up to Cranwell to finish your course.’
GR: Right.
CB: So, that’s what happened. They shipped us up to Cranwell to complete our course for a couple of months, from where they said, ‘Right. You’re finishing your course. You’ve all passed out. Would you like posting somewhere near home?’
GR: Very nice of them.
CB: Yes. They seemed to be standard in, at that time which I thought was very, very generous of them. Well, I was very familiar with RAF Pollington as it was known then.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Later known as RAF Snaith.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Not to be confused with Pocklington.
GR: Pocklington, which was the other one. Yeah.
CB: And so, I said, ‘Yes. Pollington please.’ ‘Yes. No bother.’ So, that was after about two months at Cranwell. I thought, ‘Oh, I’ve been to RAF Cranwell. Yeah. The home of — ’ [laughs] So I ended up on the train at Selby station. This would be July, August time.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And they picked me up from the station on the pickup truck. Took me out to Pollington. Stopped at the guardhouse at the gate, main gate, and I was sat on my own with all my kit, kit bag and bits and pieces, and a sergeant came out and said, ‘Don’t get off. Don’t get off,’ he said. I said, ‘How’s that? I said I’m posted here you know, sergeant.’ He said, ‘I know that but you’re not staying here.’ ‘But I’m posted here.’ ‘Doesn’t matter. You’re not, just stay on the truck for a while. You’re going up to RAF Burn.’ I said, ‘Where on earth is that?’ I’d not heard of it.
GR: No.
CB: Of course. And, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘It’s about seven miles up the road.’
GR: Oh right.
CB: He said, ‘It’s not far away. You just stay there.’ So about twenty minutes later off we went. So, I was posted to 51 Squadron at Pollington. I was on site for about twenty minutes and then I ended up at 578, RAF Burn.
GR: RAF Burn.
CB: And I was there until, oh virtually Christmas. Christmas Eve ’44.
GR: Right.
CB: The end of December. Yeah, I recall I was posted abroad. I got my posting abroad. They must have thought he’s had it cushy enough for all this time [laughs] we’ll ship him abroad.
GR: What was life like at Burn before we move abroad?
CB: A bit primitive.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Yes. Obviously, it was a, and in the wet weather as it got into the winter cold. Cheerless.
GR: Yeah.
CB: I remember the Nissen, Nissen huts dripping with condensation. It was a real blessing if some of the other, I think there were [pause] Do you recall how many were in each Nissen hut? Something like [pause] I’ve been asked this once or twice. Something like twelve would it be?
GR: I would have thought a bit more but —
CB: Maybe so.
GR: But no. If your recollection is twelve.
CB: No. It’s a vague recollection. Yeah. I was going to say maybe fourteen.
GR: Yeah. Did you have your own aircraft to look after? Or did you service —
CB: I was allocated to A Flight.
GR: Right.
CB: Of about eight aircraft.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Which on the circuit going clockwise around the perimeter track we were A Flight. The first. First flight.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And then further around B Flight. And further around to C Flight.
GR: Right.
CB: Yes. I was introduced to the wireless department. WT section as it was. Wireless Transmitter section. To the sergeant, the corporal and I think there were about four other wireless mechanics. Experienced of course. I was.
GR: Junior.
CB: A bit raw behind the ears as it were, fresh from training school but settled in well and we used to go around after breakfast on our bikes, our bicycles. Bike round to the, and check each of the eight or nine aircraft.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Test the equipment. See if there’s been any reports or any faults or shortcomings on the equipment by the appropriate aircrew and yeah, that, that was the daily routine.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Which, but going around the perimeter track we obviously passed the end of the main runway which ran east to west, I think. Roughly east to west. And I remember one time we were busy chatting the three or four of us biking around there. And —
[telephone ringing. Recording paused]
CB: Aircraft servicing.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Well, one thing that sticks in my mind is you were not allowed to switch the aircraft power source. The accumulators.
GR: Yeah.
CB: For fear of flattening them because the equipment took a fair bit of juice. Under no circumstances, unless nobody was looking of course.
GR: Right.
CB: On the odd occasion, a quicky you might do, but you had to look around at the other parked aircraft or the big trolley, accumulator trolley. They were heavy devils. Big wooden things with big batteries in. Took two or three of you to pull them around. Oh, the damned things. A hundred and fifty yards up there on [laughs] on one of the other parking sites and you had to pull the damned trolley all that way. And then the cable was a massive heavy thing. You had to lug that and plug it in to the aircraft for the power supply, and that’s one thing I remember.
GR: Yeah.
CB: So, we used to test the equipment. The other thing that stuck in my mind is all the mechanics were testing all the aircraft. They were calling flight control, ‘This is BB for Badger, checking the equipment. Are you receiving me?’ If control were in a good humour —
GR: Yeah.
CB: They’d say, ‘Yeah. Receiving you loud and clear. Roger out.’ If, ‘Oh good God we’ve been doing this all morning. We’ll let them, let them keep calling in,’ And you’d keep calling in. No response. The equipment isn’t working.
GR: Oh dear.
CB: Then you, then you realise they were not responding. So, it was a bit of a problem but we survived it.
GR: Yes.
CB: But I thought, yes and we, we do the eight or nine aircraft.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And checked everything was ship shape including the 1154/55 the main equipment transmitter to receiver which had the short range 11/96 TR.
GR: Right.
CB: And they checked the aerials. Check every, every bit of the equipment and then move on to the next one.
GR: Yeah.
CB: So that was the routine as the winter weather came on.
GR: Did you get to know the crews or —
CB: No. A bit of a disappointment we never because they’d been on operations.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Almost certainly at some time in the night and they were sleeping it off at that time. They’d probably got back from ops what 3am, 4am, 5am.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Had their bacon and eggs which was standard.
GR: Yeah
CB: With, with air crew and obviously gone to catch up on sleep and recover. Because I, when I was earlier on with the ATC at Pollington we used to, we had, I spent a couple of separate weeks camping there with the on the base.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And they used to take us to training and show us various things and in between one or two of my mates from Wakefield, we used to bike over, about twenty, twenty-two, twenty-four miles not, in those days you didn’t think that was too, ‘Oh, we’re biking through to Pollington, Charles. Do you want to come?’ ‘Yeah.’ If we’re lucky we can wrangle our way on site and if we’re lucky we might see some aircrew going up.
GR: Yeah.
CB: For a test flight, and if we’re lucky they’ll say, ‘Ok. Come on then.’
GR: Yeah. Yeah. Get on board. Yeah.
CB: If we we’re unlucky they would say, ‘No. You can’t come up. Bugger off.’ Sort of thing and —
GR: And were you lucky?
CB: Yes. I had occasions.
GR: Oh good.
CB: And, of course in those days 150 Squadron flying Wellingtons.
GR: Right.
CB: Before the Halifax came on site.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And I remember very very clearly how absolutely horrendously noisy and vibratory they were. Everything vibrated.
GR: Yeah.
CB: With the engines, and the noise was atrocious. And I thought many times afterward I don’t know how those poor aircrew felt stuck eight or nine hours to, to on a Berlin trip.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Operation. Eight or nine hours of this boom, boom, boom. Yeah. I know. It was bad enough the ack ack and the night fighters.
GR: Night fighters. Yeah.
CB: And then to survive that. Yeah, they certainly earned any medals they got.
GR: They deserved it.
CB: So, yes, originally, I flew a bit with Wellingtons.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Which was very instructional.
GR: Yes.
CB: With the geodedic construction.
GR: Construction. Yeah.
CB: Which was interesting. I recall one time. I think it was the second time we went up and I went up with a mate called Tubby, Tubby Johnson.
GR: Right.
CB: And we were walking from the fore part of the Wellington on this narrow walkway hanging on to the rope to steady you. There’s no, nothing solid at all. The walkway, and hanging on to the rope and [coughs] excuse me. Tubby was in front of me. The aircraft lurched and he lost his footing and he slipped off the walkway on to this, and his feet ended up on the escape hatch.
GR: Oh.
CB: The escape hatch gave way, didn’t it with his weight? He was sort of roughly three, maybe three or four yards ahead of me. A short distance ahead of me and I saw this happening. He lurched and I was hanging on and he was, he was hanging on with his feet, on what was the escape hatch which had disappeared and he was halfway, or part of the way through the escape hatch. So, I lurched forward. Grabbed hold of him, and helped him back in to the aircraft. And, and then again one of those things that sticks in your mind. That was somewhere over Selby, I think.
GR: Somewhere over Selby.
CB: Yeah. I have a vivid recollection of approaching Selby. Oh, it was a beautiful abbey. Selby Abbey, in what might have been a bit of sunlight at the time.
GR: Yeah
CB: Three times in the Wellingtons. Yes. And by the time I’d done my training course and got posted back to Burn it was four engine Halifaxes, of course.
GR: Halifaxes. Yeah.
CB: Which seemed massive black things, you know and our, our billet in the Nissen hut was very adjacent to one of the Halifaxes, and I looked at it and thought by Jove they’re big. In fact, I took my wife to an event at Elvington, and we had a look at the, we didn’t manage to look around the, I said, ‘That’s the Halifax, Amy love. I said, ‘That’s the one that I worked on years ago.’ She said, ‘Isn’t it a big one?’ I said, ‘Well, it’s pretty big,’ I said, but compared to the jumbo and so on, I said, ‘It was big at the time.’ So, yes I did something like June till, till my posting abroad and I ended up at the PDC at Blackpool.
GR: Right.
CB: In digs there waiting to go on the troop ship from Greenock, Glasgow to the Middle East.
GR: That’s where they were going to send you, was it? The Middle East.
CB: That’s where I ended up. Yes. it was the big question. ‘You’re going abroad.’ ‘Oh, where am I going?’ And this was Christmas ’44.
GR: ‘44. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So, we, along with some of my mates, we ended up at Greenock on board the —
GR: One of the troopships. Yeah.
CB: Yes. They Duchess of, the Duchess of [pause] Canadian. The Duchess of Canada.
GR: Oh right.
CB: Yeah. Later burned out. Some years, a good few years later, burned out.
GR: And where were they sending you to?
CB: I ended, we docked at Alexandria in Egypt.
GR: In Egypt. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. From where they, they disembarked us on to a troop train. Cattle trucks. Very basic.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Cattle trucks. And we went down the canal side to Al Fayah, I think it was.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Somewhere down the, down the Canal there to the, another PDC. And I spent, with my mates waiting for a posting I think I spent about two months there.
GR: Right.
CB: Just hanging around waiting for a posting which turned out to be East Africa Command, and they flew us down off the Nile at Cairo in a, what was a civilian, it was the equivalent of the Sunderland. It was a civilian earlier version of the Sunderland.
GR: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: The Empire Flying Boat.
GR: Boat. Right.
CB: It was the, oh I should know the name but — so yes we took off from the, the Nile at Cairo.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Landed at Khartoum. Spent overnight in Khartoum, and then from there we flew down to Lake Victoria. Kisumu. Landed at Lake Kisumu. And they shipped us down from there down to Nairobi. RAF Eastleigh, Nairobi.
GR: Was the war still on then or had the war finished?
CB: Let me gather my [pause] yes. The war had finished whilst I was in Egypt.
GR: Right.
CB: Because, then again, I recollect yes that was May. May time, wasn’t it, of course.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And we got an invite, oh the war’s over and everybody was chums and the officers invited us other ranks because at that time I was still AC2.
GR: Right.
CB: And we got an invite in to the, that evening to the officer’s mess for a drink or two and I said, ‘Oh, I can’t come. I can’t come. No. I’m on duty at the blanket store.’ Issuing blankets to the people coming and going.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And taking them back in and so on. And one of my mates, he said, ‘Don’t worry,’ he said. He said, ‘Fred will, he’ll look after things. Join us in the officer’s mess for a drink of two.’ Which we had of course, and I wasn’t used to drink at that age of course, and in those circumstances and I got a bit worse for wear and they helped me back from the officer’s mess back to the blanket store. And much to our alarm the duty officer was there, wasn’t he, at that blanket store. And he was having a look around and shouting his head off, ‘Who the hell is in charge here?’ And my, I was supposed to be in charge. Tiddly on duty. Oh dear. I’m in trouble now. My mate jumped in and says, ‘I’m in charge sir. Yes. I’m in charge. Everything’s fine. Everything’s under control. No problem.’ And he hid me around the corner out of sight. And we got away with that one so —
GR: Got away with it. Yeah.
CB: And the orderly officer went and I had a couple of hours sleeping it off.
GR: Good lad.
CB: And I remember, yeah I met him later in East Africa and I thanked him profusely for getting me out of that one.
GR: How long did you stay in East Africa?
CB: Virtually two and a half years.
GR: Oh right.
CB: Quite long. The, they were starting not long afterwards demobbing people of course.
GR: Yes.
CB: Obviously. The war was over. Back to Civvy Street, and we thought well how long are we going to have to wait. And the story went because you, you were allocated a demob release number and when your number came up at [unclear] you knew you were back home and I seem to remember my number was 44, 45. But in those days of course the numbers were very low so you just got on with it. I was posted to RAF Eastleigh. Mainly on the transmitter stations there. But they had, they had an anti-locust flight with a couple of aircraft. Did anti locust spraying.
GR: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: The Locusts from, flocks of, swarms of locusts came in from the north. From the Sudan.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Into Northern Kenya. Devastated the crops. So they had a couple of Baltimores. American Baltimores —
GR: Yeah.
CB: With massive tanks, five hundred gallon tanks in the fuselage and they used to spray the locusts, the flocks of locusts and I was allocated to the anti-locust flights for a time. And we, they also had the meteorological Spitfire, and a Mosquito. I remember one time I was called out from, I’d been, I’d been for a meal and the sergeant came and said, ‘You’re a wireless mechanic aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes, sergeant.’ ‘Right. Follow me.’ I thought now what was the problem? He said, There’s the pilot here of the Mosquito. He wants to take you up in the, in the Mosquito.’ I thought oh.
GR: That’ll do.
CB: Interesting.
GR: Yeah.
CB: So long as he doesn’t do too many loops. And then somebody said, ‘Hang on,’ He said, ‘You’re a wireless mechanic aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes, a wireless.’ He said, ‘Oh, I wanted a damned wireless operator. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m, I’m ruddy well fed up,’ he says, ‘Control. The wireless operators in control here,’ he said, ‘While I’m doing my manoeuvres, throwing the plane all over the place and he’s having to try and do his Morse and they’re complaining bitterly that the quality of his morse is bloody awful.’ He said, ‘What the hell do they expect?’ He said, ‘I thought I’d get one of these control wireless operators in the plane and take them up.’
GR: And show them.
CB: And show them what they’re up against. And I nearly got the job [laughs] until he realised. He wanted a wireless operator. So, I was, I was saved the day there fortunately. But yeah, that went on. As I say I was allocated for a while with the anti-locust flight and they flew us up country to where this big swarm was coming in in an Anson communications plane.
GR: Yeah.
CB: They used to fly up to the Sudan and down to Rhodesia on communications work. I never got a flight actually.
GR: No.
CB: But some of my mates got down there. They used to say, ‘Do you want a nice wrist watch bringing back?’ They’re very, very cheap down in Rhodesia.’ And for many, many, many years I had a lovely watch, wrist watch that they brought me back from Rhodesia.
GR: Rhodesia. Yeah.
CB: Very, very cheap. Swiss and, yeah anyway they flew me up to El Dorado, Northern Kenya to this little encampment, and a day or two later this Baltimore came over. In the meantime, we’d been out in the jeep and with toilet roll we’d marked out the area, the perimeter area of the locust flight which had settled.
GR: Right.
CB: And with the communications the plane would come over and they’d, with this five hundred gallon of DDT.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Which is now not used of course. Illegal. But it was very commonly used there and, yes, he sprayed this massive swarm outlined by the toilet roll on the ground and we, we did a foot check later and the results were very good.
GR: Ah.
CB: We, in the camp was a professor somebody or other studying the effects of this, and he had a young whizz kid assistant with him and we had, we had the meetings in the evenings to discuss the success or otherwise of the operation. But it was a hell of a job.
GR: Yeah.
CB: I recall we, we, had to drive up to the camp from Nairobi and we drove through the —
[phone ringing recording paused]
CB: Sorry?
GR: A friend of yours.
CB: No. Actually, I’ve got the home visit with the eyesight people.
GR: Oh right. Yeah.
CB: I find it very difficult to get in and they were offering home tests and that.
GR: Yeah.
CB: All my life from the age of fourteen I’ve worn spectacles. I’ve been short-sighted.
GR: Same as me.
CB: But when I had my cataracts done about three and a half years ago the surgeon at Goole said, ‘Would you like to be long-sighted?’ I thought about it. I said, ‘Can you do anything about it?’
GR: Yeah.
CB: ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘When I put the new lenses in — ’
GR: Yeah.
CB: ‘I can convert you to long sighted.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah. Ok.’
GR: That’ll do.
CB: So, I’m long-sighted now. I wear reading specs.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: But I thought well my eyesight’s not quite as good. I’ve got these home visit people in and prescribe something.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And he wants to come and see me with the specs in twenty minutes. So, he’s coming again some another day.
GR: So, when did demob come around for you?
CB: Well, I said I did two and a half years. I shuttled mainly on ground transmitters, but on any aircraft that happened to require servicing.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Lockheed Hudsons, DC, through the Dakotas and any other incidentals. I was at Nairobi for some months, then they posted me down to RAF Mombasa.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Port Reitz, the old German base, which had been a very, very busy airfield in the war days, and I spent some time down there, and then I got a posting out to Mauritius. Oh, Mauritius.
GR: It can’t be bad.
CB: It can’t be bad. And I spent three or four months out in Mauritius on the transmitter station.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And, and then back to Mombasa. Down to Dar Salaam RAF, back to Mauritius and then I should have, and I ended up back in Nairobi. I was shuttling.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Every three or four months. Did two and a half years, I think. Roughly.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And I’d been on duty on the transmitters, night duty at Nairobi. Eastleigh. Came off duty about 6 o’clock. My mate saw me in the dining room there, ‘Oh, you lucky devil, Charlie. You’re off home.’ I said, ‘Am I? News to me.’ ‘Oh yeah. It’s on the notice board. Your name’s there. You’re on the aircraft tonight. This evening.’ I said, ‘Oh hell’s bells.’ Because you got all manner of kit from all manner of department.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And you had to take it all bit, back bit by bit and get it signed. The signature clearly on your release chit.
GR: Yeah.
CB: If you didn’t have a full set of signatures you were in trouble. And I had to go from A to B to B to A all the way around. I was doing that at early evening. The last ones. The flight out was on a Liberator.
GR: Yeah.
CB: A converted Liberator with canvas seats. I think we flew out about 10 o’clock. I just made the flight but it was a bit of rush job. Yeah. I came off duty at six. ‘You’re going home.’ And I said, ‘Yeah, you’re right.’
GR: Yeah.
CB: So, I’d done two and a half years which was rather long.
GR: Yeah.
CB: The story was, I don’t know how true that when the war finished, ‘Oh we’ve got thousands of wireless mechanics. Get rid of them to Civvy Street.’ And they released them by the, by the thousand. And —
GR: Yeah. But not you.
CB: And then they realised they’d released too many so instead of getting some released each month you could go two months without getting any of your wireless mechanics. So, your number was very slow coming up. So, so, are you alright for time?
GR: Yeah. Yeah. We’re alright. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Good. So, yeah. I flew from Nairobi. We landed at, back in Cairo and from Cairo we flew non-stop to Heathrow which was in its very early days, of course in those days.
GR: Yes. Yeah.
CB: I remember oh Heathrow. I know Heathrow. Is this it? It was a muddy. Clapped out. I thought this isn’t a main airport. But it was the early days of Heathrow and it had rained. Rained quite a bit and everywhere was muddy and not, not very nice. But glad to be home, back in England after two and a half years so —
GR: Yeah.
CB: And from there where did we go? Oh, good Lord.
GR: So, this would be 1948. Would it?
CB: ’47.
GR: ’47.
CB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Got the train up. Oh, it’s a bit vague is that.
GR: Oh, it don’t matter.
CB: Yeah, a bit vague.
GR: But you were literally straight out the RAF then.
CB: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Yes. I got a posting to RAF Warton or Kirkham which was another PDC dispersal and release centre, and I was demobbed from there.
GR: Right.
CB: And then ended up back home fairly shortly after.
GR: Yeah. When did you got married?
CB: The following. Twelve months later.
GR: Yeah. Because you met your wife during — ?
CB: Yeah. And we had corresponded. I said, ‘Would you like us to write, love?’ ‘Yeah. Yeah. That would be nice.’ And when I joined the Air Force, she joined the Women’s Land Army.
GR: Right. Yeah.
CB: And she did, she did virtually four and a half years in the Land Army in North Yorkshire. Ripon and Knaresborough and Keighley area and so on.
GR: And what did you end up doing when you left the RAF?
CB: I went, well, I was in like everybody got a reserved guaranteed, you could get your old job back.
GR: Your old, did you go back to the —
CB: I went back to the textiles.
GR: Oh right.
CB: I went to the knitting wool and picked up my job there. It had been held by the wife of a young fella. He’d gone in the Army so his job was secure, and he came back and his wife was in the office and [unclear] and I got my job back. I was with them for about three years and I got moved around and got a promotion, and I thought well I’m not getting anywhere fast here and I applied for, and by which time I’d bought a motorbike for a bit of mobility, and I got a job at Drighlington towards Bradford with a factory that produced iron and steel cables. Wire. Wire. Wire pulleys.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And wire drawers. And I was with them for about four years and there was a change in the main. It was run by two brothers, and the main brother ran the business side.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Died of a heart attack, and things changed quite a lot. His brother was on the technical side. Had no idea of business at all and spent too much time drinking the profits.
GR: Oh dear.
CB: And, so I got a job with, you won’t have heard of them, William Freeman and Company Limited.
GR: Yeah.
CB: “Super sealed and super made.”
GR: Yeah.
CB: Rubber and plastics manufacturers in Barnsley.
GR: Right.
CB: By which time I’d got, of course I’d married and we, we were living in Sandal in Wakefield, which was on the Barnsley side.
GR: Yeah.
CB: And I was with them for ten years until I decided that I could do with a change. The managing director there, he was a bit of a b a s t a r d. I stuck it for ten years.
GR: Ten years and that was it.
CB: He, oh, he was nasty. Nasty. And —
GR: So, your wireless operator engineering bit from the war never really stood you in any good stead.
CB: Didn’t really make, there were so many about, you know.
GR: Yeah.
CB: Television was coming in.
GR: Yes.
CB: And people said, ‘You’ll be alright. You’ll be able to get into telly.’
GR: Yeah.
CB: Not that I’d done much in Wakefield in [unclear] a mere relative in those days of course and so but yes, a number of my friends followed on with their wireless and went into television.
GR: Yeah.
CB: But I thought well it’s a bit crowded.
GR: You don’t always like to change.
CB: So, I took to office management and accountancy.
GR: Oh. Good.
CB: And I’d been doing, earlier on I’d been doing evening studies in accounts, and I got a qualification and so I ended up with this firm in Barnsley for ten years. And then in 1962 —
GR: You moved up to Selby.
CB: I moved to Selby.
GR: Yeah.
CB: I said to Amy, I said, and I saw the job advertised and it seemed to fit my qualification with Yorkshire Dyeware and Chemical Company. They wanted an office manager with accounts experience.
GR: And that was you.
CB: And so, I applied and to my surprise I went for interviews and they offered it to me.
GR: That’s good.
CB: My daughter, our only daughter had just passed her eleven plus so she could go to the high school here.
GR: Yeah.
CB: For girls. That fitted. My wife, I got a job which fitted. And my wife said, ‘Oh yeah, lovely the place. It’s nice and quiet here. A bit different to Wakefield, I guess.
GR: Oh yes.
CB: But of course, Wakefield since then to now has changed immeasurably. Like everywhere.
GR: You’re better off in Selby.
CB: Yeah. And so just came here and stayed.
GR: Good.
CB: Stayed. That’s where —
GR: That’s we started and that’s where I’ll —
CB: I did seventeen years with them and —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Charles Beecher
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABeecherC180614, PBeecherC1801
Format
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00:58:52 audio recording
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Beecher was a member of the local Air Training Corps in Wakefield before volunteering for the RAF. He was unsuccessful in his application for aircrew because of his eyesight and trained as a wireless mechanic. Part of his course was in Kensington, London where he experienced V-1 attacks. The final part of his training was at RAF Cranwell. He was posted first to RAF Burn where he had the responsibility of servicing the wireless equipment on A Flight. He was then posted abroad to RAF Eastleigh in Mombasa. Charles and a colleague were on board a Wellington aircraft on one occasion when walking through the aircraft his colleague fell through the escape hatch and Charles had to rescue him by pulling him back inside the aircraft.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Kenya
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Yorkshire
England--Wakefield
Kenya--Mombasa
Kenya--Nairobi
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
578 Squadron
ground personnel
RAF Bourn
RAF Cranwell
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/689/9430/MBarkerR[Ser -DoB]-151001-01.pdf
b48880a1d568ec27ce83eae2a8005d70
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barker, Reg
R Barker
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. The notes for a talk given by Reg Barker to the Haywards Heath Historical Society on 24 June 2014 and an account of his Lancaster being shot down during an operation to Kiel on 20 August 1944. Reg Barker flew as pilot on Halifax with 76 Squadron and Lancaster with 635 Squadon.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Barker and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Barker, R
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] TALK TO THE HAYWARDS HEATH HISTORICAL SOCIETY at FRANKLANDS HALL by REG BARKER – JUNE 24, 2014 [/underlined]
As a veteran of Bomber Command I am very lucky to be alive. As you know, more than 55,000 of our less fortunate colleagues lost their lives in WW2.
At last, we have a superb memorial in Green Park in London to remind everyone of their sacrifice.
I like to think that the Memorial also recognises the 55,573 families who lost a son, or a brother, or a father, or an uncle. These families still grieve today for the loved ones whom they lost.
In December 1943 I was a guest at two weddings attended by 3 other Bomber Command Air Crew. In the following months, all 4 of us were shot down over Germany. 2 of us were killed and 2 of us survived as Prisoners of War. [underlined] THAT WAS THE REALITY for us Air Crew! [/underlined]
In spite of the losses, our Morale [sic] was very high, because we knew we were doing an important job to help bring an end to the long struggle to defeat Hitler and the Nazis and to [underlined] win the war! [/underlined] If we had [underlined] LOST [/underlined] our Country would have been INVADED, the Jewish population would have been rounded up and sent to CONCENTRATION CAMPS – where they would have been worked to death – or starved to death – and Men & Boys between the ages of 16 and 6 would have been sent to Germany as SLAVE-WORKERS, producing weapons of war, GUNS, AMMUNITION, AIRCRAFT and TANKS for HITLER’S GERMANY.
[page break]
[underlined] 2 [/underlined]
I volunteered to join the R.A.F. as Air Crew on my 19th Birthday. After initial training in this Country, I was sent across the Atlantic to Canada. There I was issued by the Canadian Air Force with a grey flannel suit. Was I going to spend the War playing GOLF in Canada? No, the plan was for me to travel to the United States, supposedly as a CIVILIAN, because at that time the U.S. was a Neutral Country. Neutral? Their President Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a great friend to this country and the U.S. Air Force was training R.A.F. Pilots. How neutral was that?
So I was fortunate in being sent to the Southern States of Georgia & Alabama to be trained as a PILOT!
After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour on Dec. 7, 1941, the United States entered the War and needed to expand their Air Force. So after I had completed my Pilot Training and been presented with my Silver Wings, I was told by the R A F that I was to serve with the US. Air Force as a Flying Instructor at Napier Field in Alabama, where the sun shines throughout the year!
During the following 12 months, I taught 26 American and R A F Cadets to fly the HARVARD, a advanced trainer which was great to fly and fully AEROBATIC!
As an Instructor, I was allowed to take to the skies in a Harvard at any time. So I gained a lot of extra flying experience.
[page break]
[underlined] 3 [/underlined]
I have always felt that I was extremely privileged to be the right age to be trained as a PILOT – and to end up flying the AVRO LANCASTER – The most successful R A F bomber of W W II.
The Lancaster’s performance, its ruggedness, its reliability and its sheer charisma endeared it to its crews, who felt proud to fly this famous aircraft.
In a letter which he wrote to the head of AVRO after the War, our Commander in Chief, Sir Arthur Harris, said:
“Without your genius and efforts we could not have prevailed, for I believe that the Lancaster was the greatest single factor in winning the War.”
More than 7.000 Lancasters were built- and half of that number [inserted] 3,500 [/inserted] were lost on operations against the enemy. Sadly, there are only 2 still fling in the whole world – our own Battle of Britain Memorial Flight Lancaster – and the Canadian Lancaster which flew here in August [inserted] 2014 [/inserted]. They have [inserted] been [/inserted] flying together at Air Shows around the country. Did any of you managed (sic) to see them flying together? I saw them at Eastbourne - & I must say they did look like 2 elderly ladies compared with aircraft of today!
[page break]
[underlined] 4. [/underlined]
In September 1940 – when the Second World War had been going for a whole year – and the R A F FIGHTERS had fought off the German Luftwaffe in the BATTLE of BRITAIN – our PRIME MINISTER – Sir Winston Churchill – stated :-
“The FIGHTERS are our Salvation – but the BOMBERS alone PROVIDE THE MEANS OF VICTORY.”
• Bomber Command was the only FORCE which operated against the enemy from the day war broke out, right to the very end of the War.
• Bomber Command played an [inserted] ESPECIALLY [/inserted] important part in weakening the enemy in the run up to D-Day, by bombing their AIRFIELDS, damaging their RAILWAYS, destroying their wireless and RADAR stations and attacking their heavily fortified GUN BATTERIES on the coast.
• Bomber Command also played a very import part in deceiving the enemy, making Hitler believe that our Armies would invade the French coast near Calais; and thus give our Armies tune ti get asgire & establish themselves in Normandy.
• We were very effective in putting an end to the VIs, the DOODLE-BUGS which caused so much damage to London & the South-East in 1944.
[page break]
[underlined] 5. [/underlined]
Our four engined heavy bombers – Lancastsers Halifaxes and Stirlings – all carried a crew of 7.All 7 members worked closely together and we became a TIGHTLY-KNIT TEAM. As PILOT and CAPTAIN, it was my job to [underlined] fly [/underlined] the AIRCRAFT, but I depended on all the other members of my CREW to play their part.
We depended on our [underlined] Navigator [/underlined] to work out the course for us to fly – and the speed – to ensure that we would arrive at each night’s TARGET on time. The [underlined] FLIGHT-ENGINEER’S [/underlined] task was to monitor the behaviour of our 4 engines. Our [underlined] WIRELESS OPERATOR’S [/underlined] job was to keep in touch with our base in ENGLAND.\our [underlined] BOMB AIMER’s [/underlined] vital role as we approached the target was [inserted]to [/inserted] peer through his BOMB¬SIGHT and call instructions to me to ensure that he could release our BOMB LOAD at exactly the right spot:-“LEFT-LEFT, RIGHT, STEADY.”
When SEARCH LIGHTS were coming dangerously close or our 2 [underlined] GUNNERS [/UNDERLINED] thought we were about to be attacked by an ENEMY FIGHTER THEY WOULD SHOUT “CORK-SCREW PORT GO”. Having carried out this manoeuvre, the Pilot realised that the gunner was rather agitated, so in order to calm him he said “It’s alright Ginger, keep calm, GOD IS WITH US”! In a desparate (sic) voice, the Gunner replied “God may be up your end, but there’s a blasted Junkers 88 Fighter up this end!”
[page break]
[underlined] 6. [/underlined]
When I was flying 4 engined bombers – if a violent manoeuvre was needed to keep us out of trouble, I pretended I was doing aerobatics in a HARVARD. On one such occasion, a cannon shell from the ground hit our rea turret, but because our air craft was tilted at 90˚ with our wing vertical to the ground, a cannon shell went sideways through our rear turret without exploding!
It made a large hole, the size of a dinner plate in the Perspex on each side of the turret. My rear gunner saw a blue flash as the shell passed in front of his face, but he was unhurt. If the shell had hit the rear turret from beneath, it would have exploded and sent us all to our deaths.
On Operations we flew Halifax Bombers with 76 Squadron based at HOLME – or – Spalding Moor in Yorkshire and later we were chosen to fly Lancasters with a Pathfinder Squadron, No.635, based at Downham Market, in Norfolk. It was when we were flying as Pathfinders, five minutes ahead of the MAIN FORCE, that we were eventually shot down.
That happened on Aug. 26th 1944, the day after the Allied Armies in France had liberated Paris, after it had been occupied by the German Army for more than 4 years.
Our target that night was the German Naval Base at KIEL.
[page break]
[underlined] 7. [/underlined]
[underlined] KIEL was an important TARGET because it was where the German SUBMARINES were based. [/underlined]
Much of Britain’s FOOD came from other countries in SHIPS. Enemy submarines sank so man ships that there was a severe shortage of some foods. The Government therefore had to introduce FOOD RATIONING, which meant that each person was allowed to buy a fixed amount of food each week
In 1941 the RATION was 1 egg a week, and TEA, SUGAR, BUTTER and MEAT were also rationed. Lots more foods were rationed later, including SWEETS! There were NO BANANAS at all throughout the War.
Not only were German submarines such a serious threat to our FOOD SUPPLIES, after D.Day when our Armines in France had to be supplies with EVERYTHING by SEA, they were a serious threat to the ships which had to cross the Channel each day.
[page break]
8.
After we had successfully bombed our target, we set course for home.
Suddenly there was an explosion, a vivid flash and the aircraft was thrown onto it’s back. I managed to regain level flight, but soon realised that the cables to the tail plane were damaged and that I could no longer control the aircraft, so I gave the order to bail out.
At almost the same moment, the nose of our LANCASTER plunged [inserted] VIOLENTLY [/inserted] downwards and the aircraft went into a vertical spinning dive. Our four Rolls Royce Merlin engines were now driving us at a very high speed headlong towards the earth.
The reason for this calamity, as I learned later from our Rear Gunner, was that the whole tail section of our aircraft had broken away from the fuselage. His turret was still attached to the TAILPLANE, but he had NO ENGINES – and NO PILOT! Fortunately he was able to climb out of his turret and descend to earth by parachute.
Because the aircraft was spinning furiously, I was lifted out of my seat and pinned hand up against the cockpit roof along with 3 other members of my crew.
Such was the “g” force, that it was impossible to move so much as my little finger – and it quickly caused me to black out, to become unconscious.
[page break]
[underlined] 9. [/underlined]
THEN A MIRACLE HAPPENED!
[underlined] I found myself in the Sky [/underlined] – regaining consciousness in the cold night air – and I could see my blazing aircraft close by!
Instinctively IO tugged at the RIPCORD and as my parachute blossomed above me, I could see that I was about to drop into the tree tops, which were FLOODLIT by my BLAZING Aircraft.
As I landed in the TREES, my LANCASTER crashed a short distance away. I climbed down through the branches and landed safely on a cushion of leaves.
Overhead I could hear the main force of bombers making their way home to England and wistfully – I thought of the air-crew breakfast of eggs & bacon to which they were returning!
An excited crowd quickly surrounded me, each and every one of them grabbing my tunic or trousers, holding me as tightly as possible, no doubt so that each of them could claim to have captured the English “terror flyer” which they called me.
After being captured I spent five days and nights in solitary confinement. I was interrogated each day and I was subjected to various threats, but I stuck to the rule of disclosing only my name, rank and number – and this was eventually accepted by each of my interrogators.
[page break]
[underlined 10. [/underlined]
How did the enemy manage to shoot us down without our having any warning? Years later I learned that [inserted] JU88 [/inserted] German fighters were able to hone in on our H2S Rader Transmitter. I also learned that they were equipped with upward firing guns. Instead of attacking us from above and behind [inserted] AS WE EXPECTED [/inserted], they were able to position themselves directly below us, where they were completely hidden from our view. The Germans gave this system the code name “Schrage Music” [sic], meaning Jazz Music. Many of our Bombers were lost this way. It has always been a great sorrow for me that while 5 of us survived [symbol] as Prisoners of War, 2 members of my crew lost their lives – my Bomb Aimer and my Upper Gunner.
THAT NIGHT, my Squadron lost 3 LANCASTERS of the 16 which they had sent to bomb KIEL. This was a loss rate of almost 20%, together with 21 experienced Pathfinders.
The remaining mystery is how the 4 of us who were trapped UNCONSCIOUS under the cockpit roof could have had such a miraculous escape from certain death. Perhaps the centrifugal force, the “G” force, created by the spinning aircraft caused the Perspex roof to give way under the combined weight of our 4 unconscious bodies – and to hurl us out into the sky. We quickly regained consciousness in the cold night air, just in time to be saved by our parachutes.
[page break]
[underlined] 11. [/underlined]
I spent the last 9 months of the War in a prison camp – STALAG LUFT 1 – where there were 9,000 air crew from many nations – Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Poles, Czechs, - as well as huge numbers of R.A.F. from this Country.
During the early months of my captivity, we POW’s received a Red Cross Food parcel every week. They were a real life-saver! However during the last 4 months of the war, we received [underlined] NO [/underlined] parcels! We had to survive on the German ration of 1 bowl of thin potato soup each day – with 2 or 3 slices of Black bread. By the time the Russian Arrived to liberate us on May 1st 1945, we were really starving! That was a day of great rejoicing!
The Russians found a huge store of Red Cross parcels and issued each of us with 4 parcels! So for the next 2 weeks that it took to organise our return to England, every day was like Christmas Day!
Having flown to German in a Lancaster, I was flow home in an American B.17, a Flying Fortress. We landed at Ford Airfield, just along the coast in Sussex.
[page break]
[/underlined] 12. [/underlined]
After the War the Irvin Parachute Co. presented me with a gold caterpillar brooch. This is a constant reminder that I owe my life to the caterpillars which had spun the silk thread from which my parachute was manufactured. I wear my caterpillar brooch with Gratitude and Humility!
If you have been to see the Memorial, you will have noticed that in W W 2, we Air Crew were 9 feet tall. We have all Shrunk a bit since those days!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Talk to the Haywards Heath Historical Society
Description
An account of the resource
Opens with mention of Bomber Command memorial in Green Park and 55,573 despite killed, moral was high due to belief that winning was vital. Tells story that he was guest at two weddings in 1943 with three other members of Bomber Command and that all four were later shot down with two killed. Tells of training in United Kingdom and southern United States and that he was kept on as an instructor for a year after his wings award. Says he was privileged to fly Lancaster which was rugged and reliable and quotes congratulatory latter from Sir Arthur Harris to the head of Avro. Mentions 7000 Lancaster built and 3500 lost in operations. Mentions that Bomber Command was only organisation to fight throughout the war and talks of its contribution to war including D-Day preparation, deception operations and V-1 attacks. Outlines the role of all seven members of the crew and how they operated as a team, especially when attacked by fighters. Tell story of being hit by an anti-aircraft shell while in 90° bank. States that he flew on Halifax with 76 Squadron and then Lancaster with Pathfinders. Shot down on an operation to Kiel. Explains importance of Kiel as submarine base and effect they could have on on British food supplies. Describes events when shot down where tail with rear gunner was detached from fuselage and he was pinned in cockpit by g force. Describes miracle escape, parachuting and reception on ground. Later found out that was shot down by Ju-88 which could home on H2S and had upward firing guns. Five of his crew escaped aircraft and two were killed. Describes life as prisoner of war in Stalag Luft 1 and repatriation on B-17 to RAF Ford.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Reg Barker
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-06-24
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Twelve page handwritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBarkerR[Ser#-DoB]-151001-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
United States
Great Britain
England--Sussex
England--Haywards Heath
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany
Germany--Kiel
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Des Forges
635 Squadron
76 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-17
bale out
Caterpillar Club
H2S
Halifax
Harvard
Ju 88
killed in action
Lancaster
memorial
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Downham Market
RAF Ford
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag Luft 1
submarine
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/84/9858/MCluettAV120946-150515-15.1.pdf
45257601be1228d48e7ba6965f8d72ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cluett, Albert Victor
Albert Victor Cluett
A V Cluett
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
68 items. The collection concerns Leading Aircraftman Albert Victor Cluett (1209046, Royal Air Force). After training in 1941/42 as an armourer, he was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Swinderby and then RAF Skellingthorpe. The collections consists his official Royal Air Force documents, armourer training notebooks, photographs of colleagues, aircraft and locations as well as propaganda items, books in German and Dutch and items of memorabilia.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Albert Victor Cluett's daughter Pat Brown and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cluett, AV
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cartoon notebook
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Air Force notebook for workshop and laboratory records containing a large number of hand drawn wartime cartoons including aircraft caricatures. On the cover '547557 AC2 Johnson' and '1209046 LAC Cluett 1940'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One notebook
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MCluettAV120946-150515-15
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
animal
Anson
arts and crafts
Beaufighter
Defiant
Do 18
Fw 190
ground personnel
Horsa
Hudson
Hurricane
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lincoln
Lysander
Martinet
Me 163
medical officer
Meteor
military living conditions
military service conditions
Oxford
P-47
Spitfire
Stirling
Typhoon
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/9859/LAtkinsAH418514v1.2.pdf
2442259ebfd050afd9ef5293f8203e96
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Atkins, Arthur
A H Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. An oral history interview with Arthur Atkins DFC (d. 2022, Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook and 23 photographs. Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the RAAF. After training he flew 32 operations as a pilot with 625 Squadron from RAF Kelstern.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Atkins, A
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending additional content
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Arthur Atkins’ flying log book for pilots
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for Arthur Atkins, covering the period from 12 November 1942 to 12 July 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAAF Benalla, RAAF Somers, RAAF Malalla, RAAF Ascot Vale, RAAF Point Cook, RAAF Bradfield Park, RAF Brighton, RAF Andover, RAF Greenham Common, RAF Long Newnton, RAF Lichfield, RAF Church Broughton, RAF Boston Park, RAF Wescott, RAF Blyton, RAF Hemswell, RAF Kelstern, RAF Sandtoft and RAF Gamston. Aircraft flown were, DH 82 Tiger Moth, Wackett, Anson, Oxford, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He completed a total of 31 operations with 625 squadron, 15 night and 16 daylight. Targets were, Orleans, Foret de Croc, Caen, Saumerville, Wizerne, Kiel, Russelsheim, Tours, Le Havre, Rheine-Salzbergen, Saarbrucken, Fort Frederik Hendrik, Essen, Ardouval, Stuttgart, Le Landes, Pauillac, Fotenay le Marmion, Stettin, Ghent-Terneuzen Canal, Raimbert, Frankfurt, Calais, Emmerick, Duisberg and Koln. His pilot for his first 'second dickie' operation was Flying Officer Slade.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAtkinsAH418514v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Berkshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Derbyshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Staffordshire
Belgium--Ghent
France--Calais
France--Calvados
France--le Havre
France--Les Landes (Region)
France--Orléans
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Saumur
France--Forêt du Croc
France--Tours
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Salzbergen
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--Breskens
Netherlands--Terneuzen
New South Wales
South Australia
Victoria--Benalla
Victoria--Point Cook
Poland--Szczecin
Victoria
England--Sussex
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Pauillac (Gironde)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1943-11-13
1944-07-04
1944-07-05
1944-07-06
1944-07-07
1944-07-12
1944-07-13
1944-07-18
1944-07-20
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-27
1944-08-02
1944-08-04
1944-08-05
1944-08-06
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-17
1944-08-18
1944-08-19
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-08-31
1944-09-05
1944-09-06
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-27
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1944-10-11
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-10-23
1944-10-24
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1662 HCU
1667 HCU
27 OTU
625 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Andover
RAF Blyton
RAF Church Broughton
RAF Gamston
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lichfield
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Westcott
tactical support for Normandy troops
Tiger Moth
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/871/10039/EHobbsFJStorerB4409XX-0001.1.jpg
7eb808e0b31e831c152c66308f4b9230
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/871/10039/EHobbsFJStorerB4409XX-0003.1.jpg
5625ad3607890e7e3c20efbf9736d4d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/871/10039/EHobbsFJStorerB4409XX-0002.1.jpg
0f508219ae2960dc717ae754f8faee2c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hobbs, Frank
Frank James Hobbs
F J Hobbs
Description
An account of the resource
69 items. The collection concerns 1262633 Flight Sergeant Frank James Hobbs a wireless operator with 630 Squadron, RAF East Kirkby, who was killed while on operations in a Lancaster on 16 March 1944. The collection contains his log book, official and family correspondence, official and personal documents, photographs of aircrew, family and his grave and some items of memorabilia. It also includes correspondence from a French gentleman who was witness to his aircraft crash and who returns recovered personal items belonging to Frank Hobbs. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Barbara Storer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />Additional information on Frank Hobbs is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/110858/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hobbs, FJ
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] 1944 – 1 [/inserted]
TUESDAY
32, SOUTHCROFT Rd
TOOTING.
S.W.17.
DEAR BARBARA
I WAS EVER SO PLEASED TO RECEIVE YOU LETTER ON ARRIVING HOME FROM WORK TO-NIGHT. SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT YOU AND PAT ARE GOING OUT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND BEING A GOOD GIRL TO AUNTIE CON.
I BET YOU WERE PLEASED WHEN YOU FOUND THAT STONE WITH THE HOLE IN IT – I THINK YOU HAD BETTER KEEP IT FOR LUCK.
[page break]
I AM QUITE WELL DARLING AND LOOKING AFTER MYSELF. IT’S A GOOD JOB THAT YOU HAVE BEEN AWAY THOUGH AS WE HAVE HAD QUITE A LOT OF WARNINGS.
I HAVEN’T HAD ANY GOOD NEWS FROM DADDY UP TILL NOW DEAR BUT I KEEP ON HOPING AND FEEL SURE WE WILL SOON HEAR NOW.
I AN [sic] JUST GOING TO HELP AUNTIE MARY MAKE OUT BED IN THE SHELTER SO MUST SAY CHEERIO DEAR. GIVE AUNTIE CON, UNCLE RUSTY, PAT AND ANGELA MY LOVE AND KEEP ON BEING GOOD DARLING.
LOTS OF LOVE. FROM MUMMY
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
[page break]
[underlined] From [/underlined]
Burnham-on-Crouch
(June/Sept) 1944 – Sent away when VI’s started
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Mrs Hobbs to her daughter
Description
An account of the resource
Letter addressed to daughter Barbara stating that she was pleased to receive letter and hopes Barbara is being a good girl for her auntie. Writes that she is well but they have has a lot of warnings and she is glad her daughter is away. She has heard no news from daddy but keeps on hoping, She concludes stating she is off to make bed in the shelter. Note 'From Burnham-on-Crouch (June/Sept) 1944 - sent away when V1s started'
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
K Hobbs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944
Format
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Two page handwritten letter and note
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
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EHobbsKMStorerB4409XX
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Essex
England--Burnham-on-Crouch
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06
1944-07
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
David Bloomfield
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/368/10061/LDeytrikhA1381508v1.1.pdf
7a86e4150408629425043aa853221a9d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Deytrikh, Andrew
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Wing Commander Andrew Deytrikh (1921-2016, 1381508, 111248 Royal Air Force), his log books and three photographs. After training as a pilot in 1941, Andrew Deytrikh flew Spitfires on 66 Squadron at a number of locations until July 1944 when he joined Vickers Armstrong as a production test pilot. After the war he served on 604 Squadron Auxiliary Air Force flying Spitfires, Vampires and Meteors. He finished his air force career as a wing commander air attache in Finland.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Andrew Deytrikh and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Deytrikh, A
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrew Deytrikh’s pilots flying log book. One
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for Andrew Deytrikh, covering the period from 20 May 1941 to 1 February 1944. Detailing his flying training and operational flying. He was stationed at RAF Brough, RAF Montrose, RAF Grangemouth, RAF Portreath, RAF Zeals, RAF Ibsley, RAF Skeabrae, RAF Church Stanton, RAF Redhill, RAF Kenley, RAF Perranporth, RAF Hornchurch and RAF Southend. Aircraft flown were, Tiger Moth DH82, Master, Hurricane, Spitfire, Magister and Whitney Straight. He carried out convoy patrols, interceptions, army co-operation, scrambles, Fighter affiliation and bomber escorts with 66 squadron. Targets attacked, and bomber support targets were, Cherbourg, Caen, Abbeville, La Pallice, Amsterdam, Schipol Aerodrome, Courtrai, St Malo, Poix, Bryas, Gosnay, Beaumont-le-Roger, St Omer, Boulogne, Brest, Le Touquet, Brussels, Beauvais, Arras and Calais.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Belgium--Brussels
England--Essex
England--Hampshire
England--Somerset
England--Surrey
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Abbeville
France--Arras
France--Boulogne-Sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Caen
France--Calais
France--Cherbourg
France--Gosnay
France--La Pallice
France--Le Touquet-Paris-Plage
France--Poix-du-Nord
France--Saint-Malo
France--Saint-Omer (Pas-de-Calais)
Netherlands--Amsterdam
Scotland--Angus
Scotland--Orkney
Scotland--Stirlingshire
England--Cornwall (County)
Belgium--Kortrijk
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LDeytrikhA1381508v1
66 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
B-25
B-26
bombing
Boston
Flying Training School
Fw 190
Hurricane
Magister
Me 109
Me 110
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Brough
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Kenley
Spitfire
Tiger Moth
training
Typhoon
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/275/10063/LHughesAM417845v1.2.pdf
b342f70b6f3bea68f97cea8b2c7ffee6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hughes, Angas
Angas Hughes
Angas M Hughes
A M Hughes
A Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
29 items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Angas Murray Hughes (b. 1923, 417845 Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook, prisoner of war identity cards and dog tags, two memoirs and 21 photographs. Angas Hughes flew 32 operations as a bomb aimer with 467 Squadron from RAF Waddington. One of the aircraft he flew in was Lancaster R5868, S-Sugar, now at RAF Hendon. He was shot down in September 1944 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Angas Hughes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Hughes, AM
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angas M Hughes’ Royal Australian Air Force observer’s air gunner’s and wireless operator’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Australian Air Force observer’s air gunner’s and wireless operators flying log book for Angus Murray Hughes, covering the period from 24 October 1942 to 26 September 1944. He was stationed at RAAF Mount Gambier, RAAF Port Pirie, RAAF Nhill, RAF West Freugh, RAF Lichfield, RAF Swinderby, RAF Syerston and RAF Waddington. Aircraft flown were, Anson, Battle, Wellington, Stirling and Lancaster. He flew a total of 31 operations with 467 (RAAF) squadron, before being reported missing on operation number 32 to Karlsruhe. He flew 13 Daylight and 18 night operations. Targets were, Poitiers, Aunay-sur-Odon, Chatellerault, Gelsenkirchen, Limoges, Prouville, St. Leu D’Esserent, Thiverny, Courtrai, Stuttgart, St Cyr, Caen, Laroche, Siracourt, Troissy. Givors, Gilze-Rijen, Stettin, L’isle Adam, Darmstadt, Brest, Le Havre, Boulogne, Bremerhaven, Rheydt, Dortmund-Ems Canal and Karlsruhe. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Millar.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-14
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-19
1944-06-20
1944-06-21
1944-06-22
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-06-25
1944-07-04
1944-07-05
1944-07-07
1944-07-08
1944-07-09
1944-07-20
1944-07-21
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-30
1944-07-31
1944-08-01
1944-08-03
1944-08-05
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-15
1944-08-16
1944-08-17
1944-08-18
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-09-05
1944-09-10
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-17
1944-09-18
1944-09-19
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-26
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
South Australia
Victoria
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Staffordshire
Belgium--Kortrijk
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Caen
France--Châtellerault
France--Givors
France--Le Havre
France--Limoges
France--L'Isle-Adam
France--Marne
France--Normandy
France--Oise
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Poitiers
France--Saint-Cyr-sur-Mer
Germany--Bremerhaven
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Rheydt
Germany--Stuttgart
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
Poland--Szczecin
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Aunay-sur-Odon
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LHughesAM417845v1
1660 HCU
27 OTU
467 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
Battle
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
bombing of the Creil/St Leu d’Esserent V-1 storage areas (4/5 July 1944)
bombing of the Pas de Calais V-1 sites (24/25 June 1944)
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
missing in action
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lichfield
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF West Freugh
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/665/10069/AAdamsCB170802.2.mp3
70f515073c186da3731f0b76d4da4eef
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adams, Cyril Bristow
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Cyril Bristow Adams (1921 - 2017, 1429890 Royal air Force). He served as an engine fitter with 49 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Adams, CB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Cyril Adams today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Adam’s home and it is the 2nd of August 2017. Thank you, Cyril for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Sue Ford, his daughter. So, Cyril can you tell me your date of birth, where you were born and something of your early years with your family?
CA: Well, I was born 9th of December [pause] which — 1921. I lived with my father and mother and sister and grandma in a house in Battersea, London. Unfortunately, it was bombed and they were killed. I was in the Air Force at the time so probably I was lucky.
JH: And what were you actually doing though in the years before the war as a young boy?
CA: Well, I was apprenticed. Well, after school I was apprenticed to an engineering firm until I joined up in 1941.
JH: And where was that?
CA: We went to where the airships —
JH: Cardington. Cardington.
CA: Cardington. That’s where it started. And [pause] well from there you go to — you were introduced to the ways and wherefores of the Air Force and they send you away to do some training in, and square bashing and all that sort of business. Then I went to [pause] a place called — oh what’s it called? Where they do — I was on a fitter 2 course. Where I became a fitter 2E. AC2.
JH: And was the training in various places? I mean, did you move around?
CA: I moved around. I went to [pause] Scampton with 83 Squadron as a fitter 2. 49 Squadron. That was at Scampton too. And then I went to a Heavy Conversion Unit. 1661. Which was at [pause] where we played bridge. What was that called?
SF: Swinderby, was it?
CA: Swinderby. Yeah. And when I was at Swinderby I got, I went overseas to — I left Bomber Command. I went overseas to Transport Command at Lydda in Palestine. And I was there for — to the end of the war.
JH: So, what year was that then? Do you remember?
CA: Well, it was 1944 to ’46. And then we came home on what they called the Medlock Route which was, we came by lorry across the Sinai Desert into Egypt by the Bitter Lakes. And from there we went by boat to Toulon. And then by train across France to Calais and then Dover and then up to where we got demobbed. That’s roughly what happened.
JH: And what aeroplanes did you actually fly in throughout the war? What? Were they all the same?
CA: Hampdens.
JH: Right.
CA: That was the first lot. And then we had Manchester which was the forerunner for the Lancaster. And then we had Lancasters with 83 and 49 Squadron. I left there. They became a unit and I went to 1661 Conversion Unit where we built up engines from, for the Lancaster and Stirlings. When I was abroad I worked — it was like, Lydda was a Transport Command aerodrome and we serviced aeroplanes that were going out to the Far East. And it was quite pleasant in Palestine. We had the trouble with the Arabs and Jews but, well it’s history isn’t it?
JH: And what was your actual job, if you like? When you were —
CA: I was a fitter 2.
JH: Yeah. All the time. All the way through.
CA: On the engines. Yeah. I became a corporal, acting sergeant. Which I fulfilled the job of looking after and the daily running of the maintenance on the planes that came through. Or planes that — I was on a squadron as well.
JH: Do you remember any particular operations that you did throughout the war with — you know?
CA: Well, I can remember the German Navy going up the English Channel. That’s the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst. Planes I was on, they went in to bomb it and they were damaged. I can remember the Peenemunde raid which was in Poland which where they were trying out all the V-1s and V-2s. And I can remember the first thousand bomber raid which took place while I was at Scampton.
JH: Did you have many crews? Did you change crews very often?
CA: Well [pause] we had like a engine fitter, aircraft [pause] like an aeroplane fitter and they were on probably two planes. They used to do the maintenance and then that’s while I was on a squadron.
[pause]
JH: Were you anywhere where you had any near misses through your, you know, flights or —
CA: Misses?
JH: Any?
CA: Well, we, when you did a, any work on the aircraft they went up on what they used to call a night flying test and you had to go with them. Just as a, it was posted, issued out with parachutes and you went up with the plane and checked everything was alright with what you’d done. While it was flying. These amounted to, well they varied from half hour if it was quick job or if they went a bit further could be an hour. So, I could see the idea that if your work wasn’t up to scratch you were — you reaped the benefit [laughs]
[pause]
CA: It, it was a, well we wouldn’t say it was a really hard life. But you were out in the elements all the time and most of the work was done out on the dispersals. But some of the work was done in a hangar. Engine changes and things like that, as and when they came up.
JH: How many of you would be working on —
CA: Pardon?
JH: How many of you worked together? You know, on a job sort of thing. How many of you?
CA: Oh, the ground crew I should think was about fifty for a squadron. And we used to march from the hangars out to dispersals. Used, used to have a transport listing circulate the aerodrome and they used to get lifts out to where ever you were wanted to work.
JH: Did you actually have much leave? You know.
CA: Well, leave. We got —
JH: What did you do?
CA: A week. A weeks’ leave every three months. And seven days. And then you’d, if you were lucky you could get a forty eight hour pass. But as most of that was taken up in travelling it didn’t seem much point really because most of it was done with hitchhiking you know. The forces seem to be well catered for on the lifts they got. There weren’t many cars on the road because of the petrol shortage. But there was always lorries that you got a lift in.
JH: And where did you go when you went on leave anyway?
CA: Well, went in to London. The family were there until they were killed and then after that we — I got the wife accommodation in a nearby town and I used to go there you know. Whenever I got a pass.
JH: When did you get married then?
CA: 1942.
JH: How did you meet?
CA: Well, before I joined up. About 1940. We met at — we both worked at Harrods. I was in the, on the, in the engine room because they generated all the power for the shop from the engine room. Diesel generators and steam boilers. And they had a hundred and forty lifts which were maintained. A lot of them were goods lifts as opposed to what the customers used. And while I was there they fitted in an escalator. And when the, when there was an air raid the girls that did the — on the switchboard went down to the shelters and the lads who worked on the engineering side used to go up to the exchange and work the switchboards up there ‘til the air raid was finished and we swapped back again.
JH: And what did your wife do there then if she was working there?
CA: She was working there for a time and then in haberdashery. And then she went and worked for Selfridges after that until our first child was born. And that’s my, that’s Susan’s brother and he was born in ’44. It was very, it was a very fortunate birth because she was in St Thomas’ at the time that the V, V-1s destroyed our house. So — and that was that.
JH: And then what? You finished in ’46 was it?
CA: Yeah. Finished in ’46. In November.
JH: Were you in touch with any of your old mates? Crew mates, you know. Or squadron mates.
CA: Not since. No.
JH: No.
CA: I haven’t been in touch.
JH: No.
CA: Well, the chaps I used to work with on the squadron some of them came to my wedding but after that everybody split up and went, you know different places.
JH: And after that? You know, when you’d left your squadrons and what did you do sort of then in later years then?
CA: What?
JH: Work and —
CA: When I came back into England I went to get my old job back but the, the recompense wasn’t very good. So, I got a job with [pause] with the Vestey organisation. And I became eventually their chief engineer. I had to study at night school to get where I wanted to go but eventually got there.
JH: Where you based then? Where was this?
CA: This was — I lived in Battersea. Then we had what they used to call [pause] accommodation that was bought by the government and then you were able to live as, as a family in the house that the government had bought. And then I got a — after about two years, that’s when Susan came along. We went to live in Shaftsbury Park Estate which was an estate mostly of terraced houses. And then we moved out of London where we bought property in [pause] in Hertfordshire.
JH: So, did you still work at the same place or was this after all this?
CA: Oh, I worked all over the place.
JH: Oh. Right.
CA: I worked in Northern Ireland. A place called Carrickfergus. And then I went to work in Nigeria for the same firm doing much the same job.
JH: What — did your family go with you or —
CA: On one occasion they did. But not the children. It was just the wife because they were growing up and they were at the teacher’s training college weren’t you? And my son John was — he joined the Stock Exchange. And I didn’t really benefit from that [laughs] Unfortunately, he’s died since but [pause] we had our moments. And that — I was working in Peterborough when I was made redundant in ’81. And we lived in a place called Deeping St James which was just on the corner of Lincoln and Peterborough. Lincolnshire. Not Lincoln. And then after that I — my daughter, who lived in St Neots, near St Neots she thought when my wife died in ’98 [pause] she thought it would be better if I came down nearer to where she lived. And I’ve had this flat and I’ve been here, well eighteen years now. So, that’s, that’s me.
JH: Did you ever fly after the war? You know, have you gone into aeroplanes on holidays.
CA: No. I didn’t. No. I didn’t do any. Only as passenger. That’s all.
[pause]
JH: There aren’t any particular exploits that you remember? That —
CA: Pardon?
JH: Can you remember any particular exploits that happened? Any of your, you know, through your war years. Do you remember?
CA: Well, I did mention some of the bombing raids that I was servicing the aeroplanes that took part in it previously. No. I don’t think there was anything outstanding really.
JH: You didn’t feel in danger particularly. You know, from —
CA: Oh, we came under fire several times when I was in Palestine. The, the Irgun Zvai Leumi. That’s a terrorist group. A Jewish terrorist group. And, and I was taken prisoner by the 6th Airborne Division and kept in a compound overnight until the adjutant vouched for me that I worked for him. So, that was — well it was —
JH: Quite scary.
CA: Part of the job that. What I was used to.
SF: You formed a Cycling Club, didn’t you? Out there.
CA: What?
SF: You formed a Cycling Club out there.
CA: Oh yeah. We had cycling. I was always a cyclist. And we [pause] the place I was at at Lydda we formed a cycling club and we used to tear around the roads doing time trials in Palestine with the — and the Arabs knew what we were doing. They used to throw stones at us knowing we wouldn’t stop. So, we got the help of the Palestine police. They marshalled the route that we were on so that put a stop to that. These were bikes that we bought in Italy and sent out because being in Transport Command you could utilise the aircraft for, for well for your own purposes sometimes. The, and we were able to buy fruit and stuff that the civilians in England hadn’t seen for all, all the war. And we got that sent back by bomber — well, they weren’t Bomber Command. They were Transport Command. They used to run a service and all the Prisoners of War that were out in Far East came through our aerodrome in transit to — they were flown home. It took us three months to get home but they had bigger. They had the opportunity of flying so they took it I think. And they weren’t in very good condition either some of the poor devils. Mostly from the Far East. Japanese Prisoners of War. So that’s, that’s my story.
CA: Ok. Is there anything else that you can think of that he might mean to add or —
SF: I can remember him telling me what it was like to come home on the train. How uncomfortable it was going through France.
CA: Oh yeah. We used to travel by train. They used to be old German carriages, and with wooden seats. And they used to stop in a siding for hours and hours while the rest of the railway went rumbling by. And also they had places where you could use washing facilities. Not showers but washing facilities and food. It was all arranged on this Medlock Route across France. When we got to Paris the, all the bridges were down [pause] and we, they were all temporary bridges that were built for trains to go across. And they weren’t very stable. I can remember that.
JH: Why was this called the Medlock Route? What, what —?
CA: Well, it was [pause] we got a boat across the Mediterranean from Port Tewfik. Up the Canal and in we went. The boat we were on broke down and they towed us in to Malta. And we transferred on to another boat but we weren’t allowed to go ashore so we didn’t see much of Malta. And we went off between Sicily and Italy. Saw Mount Etna and other volcano islands. And eventually we got to the South of France and we went into transit camp there until we got the train. Took three months to get home.
JH: I can imagine.
SF: I also remember dad telling me about when he went up to Cardington when he was a young lad or man. And he had, they took you to big hangars there.
CA: Yeah. We slept in one of the airship hangars.
SF: Slept on the floor.
CA: Really draughty old places they were. But that was where they gave you brown paper and string to wrap all your civilian clothes up and sent them home and issued you with a uniform. When we got back they issued with civilian clothes. The other way around when we got to the demob centre which was near Birmingham.
SF: And mum went up to live there for a while, I think.
CA: Yes. She did.
SF: Because she had been bombed in London and you had a room somewhere. Was it Grantham? I can’t remember now.
CA: We had a room there. Yeah. We had to move the bed to open the door. Still it was a place to live. That’s in a place called Newark, Notts. And I used to cycle into, to Swinderby from Newark. It was only about ten miles and used to, sometimes used to get passes for weekends and things like that. While I was there at Swinderby I was in a Nissen hut complex on the side of a river. And there was no [pause] facilities for washing or anything like that. So we used to wear Wellington boots and go down and shave in the river and wash. And it was all good fun that was. Right.
JH: Ok. We’ll just, just pause for a moment then.
[recording paused]
JH: I’d like to thank you, Cyril today for allowing me to record this interview. Thank you very much.
CA: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Cyril Bristow Adams
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Judy Hodgson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAdamsCB170802
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:41:36 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Northern Ireland
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Peterborough
England--London
England--St. Neots
Middle East--Palestine
Nigeria
Great Britain
Great Britain
England--Huntingdonshire
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril was born in London in 1921 and lived in Battersea with his relatives; he met his wife in 1940 while working at Harrods. His family were killed by bombing after he joined up. Cyril enlisted at RAF Cardington in 1941 and was trained to be a fitter, then joined Bomber Command at RAF Scampton working on Hampdens, Manchesters and Lancasters for 83 and 49 Squadrons. He got married in 1942 and lost his house to a V1 while his wife was in St. Thomas’s hospital having their first child. Cyril was transferred to RAF Swinderby to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit working on Lancasters and Stirlings before being posted to Transport Command serving in Palestine from 1944 to 1945. After demobilisation he worked in Northern Ireland, Nigeria and Peterborough. After being made redundant and losing his wife in 1998, he moved to St. Neots to be closer to his daughter.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1998
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
49 Squadron
83 Squadron
bombing
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
RAF Cardington
RAF Scampton
RAF Swinderby
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/10070/LMcClementsR1796607v1.2.pdf
f8efc45259288361bfa45e77486a57ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McClements, R
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert McClement's Flying Log Book for Navigators, Air Bombers, Air Gunners, Flight Engineers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMcClementsR1796607v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Robert McClement's Flying Log Book for Navigators, Air Bombers, Air Gunners, Flight Engineers’, from 2 January 1944 to 18 February 1945. Details training schedule and operations flown. He served at RAF Pembrey, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Riccall and RAF Melbourne. Aircraft flown were Anson, Wellington, Halifax Mk 2 and Halifax Mk 3. He carried out a total of 38 operations in one tour with 10 Squadron as an air gunner on the following targets in Belgium, France and Germany: Bingen, Bochum, Bonn, Boulogne, Brest, Calais, Chemnitz, Cologne, Essen, Falaise, Gelsenkirchen, Goch, Hagen, Hanau, Homberg, Kiel, Kleve, Le Havre, Magdeburg, Mainz, Mülheim, Münster, Neuss, Nieppe Forest, Osnabrück, Saarbrücken, Scholven, Soest, Stuttgart, Tienen, Wanne-Eickel and Wesel. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Grant and Pilot Officer Moss. Remarks include notes on targets such as oil refineries, steel works, rail centres, marshalling yards, industrial areas, shipping, troop concentrations, airfields, V-1 sites, and dropping supplies. Notes include Operation Tractable, FIDO and one operation was carried out on only three engines. Robert McClement was assessed as 'a quiet and hardworking cadet' at 1 Air Gunnery School.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean
Belgium
England
France
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Belgium--Tienen
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Falaise
France--Le Havre
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Goch
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Soest
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-05
1944-08-14
1944-08-15
1944-08-17
1944-08-27
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-10-16
1944-10-17
1944-10-23
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-11-04
1944-11-18
1944-11-29
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-22
1944-12-24
1945-01-06
1945-01-14
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-04
1945-02-05
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-17
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
20 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
FIDO
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pembrey
RAF Riccall
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/883/10084/AAtkinsonG180802.2.mp3
c407b87d274b13d28e2b821e283853b7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Horton, Arthur
Arthur Leslie Horton
A L Horton
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection includes an oral history interview with Gordon Atkinson, letters from Canada and a Canadian soldier, and photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Gordon Atkinson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Horton, AL
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: Right. So, this is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre with Gordon Atkinson. My name is Dan Ellin. It’s the 2nd of August 2018. Gordon, again can you tell me a little bit about where you were born and brought up and your early life please?
GA: I was born in Flixborough in 1938. August 1938. My parents worked in the steelworks. Well, my father did. And we went to school in Flixborough village school, Church of England school and was brought up there and lived there. Grandfather was a keeper and you know there was a [pause] where we, my memories of the war time were seeing the aeroplanes coming over. And my parents took us out to watch the red sky in the north east from us and it was Hull that had been badly bombed and was on fire in the evenings and such like and it was frightening times in some respect but we got on, and had to get on with it. And —
DE: What else did you see?
GA: It was, it well when I got a bit older and seeing things you know when I was three or four or suchlike you remember things better then. And it would be later on, just before D-Day when there was thousands of troops in the area probably practising for the D-Day landings. And my mother had three cousins from Canada that came over. Two were in the army and one in the RAF. And it was probably in 1944 when I was about five years old that they must have had a weekend pass and, not at the same time but one, he with the soldier he came and visited us. And then Lesley. We knew him as Lesley. Arthur Lesley came over. He was based in Linton on Ouse in the RAF. He was a wireless operator/air gunner. I think on Halifax bombers. And he came over one weekend and, to stay with us and that was the last time we ever saw or heard from him. And it was later on that we found out that he’d perished somewhere on a mission coming back from Belgium and presumed lost in the North Sea somewhere. And it was his parents who emigrated to Canada in about 1913 on the Empress of Ireland and it got sunk in the Gulf of St Lawrence in a fog patch when it crashed with a Norwegian collier ship. And it was some six months after it had sunk that my parents found out that he’d, that they’d arrived safely when they got a postcard to say that they’d arrived safely. So that had been a worrying time for them. And they had three sons and a daughter and it was my mother’s cousin who corresponded the rest of her life with my mum and kept her informed with what had happened and where they were. And that was sort of the war for us. When we used to go out, did I say that before that the bombers coming over about a, probably a thousand raid bombers they used to come up from South Lincolnshire and Suffolk or whatever it was, congregate out over the Humber and probably waiting for a fighter escort and coming down from the north. Newcastle and Northumberland and all such as that. And then in the morning you’d be able to go outside and see them coming home with their engines failing and bits dropped off and everything like that. Coming home on a wing and a prayer I think they called it. And that’s some of the, some of the biggest memories that we’ve got of the war. Occasionally we saw the odd Doodlebug passing over and most of them went over the Trent and probably heading for Sheffield or Rotherham or somewhere in the Midlands and such like which was a frightening sound which you never forget. Like you never forget the sound of a Lancaster and that. It still you know, puts the hair on the back of your neck up somehow. I don’t know why it does that but it still does to this day. But the other year when I was getting excited seeing two bombers flying together. I said to myself well, get some time in, you know. We’d seen them a thousand at a time.
DE: Yeah.
GA: Hope they never return but it was an exciting time seeing all these amphibious vehicles crossing the Trent practising for when they got over to Germany across the bigger rivers of the Rhine and such like that they would have to pass over.
DE: So what was that like?
GA: Well, to kids at that age it was very exciting seeing all these churned up roads that these track vehicles had churned up and everything. And the soldiers. He was, I think he was in the Canadian artillery. We’ve still got three letters he wrote to my mum thanking her for, for small food parcels and cigarettes and tea. And he asked on one occasion that rather than send sugar would she send saccharine because they were on the move all the time. And he said at Christmas, at New Year he was, the letter came from Holland. And then it came from a bit further in Germany about three or four weeks later. And then a month later than that he said, ‘We’re on the move every day,’ sort of thing, ‘We don’t know who is going to get there first. We couldn’t care less. But it’s probably the Russians who will get to Berlin first.’ So in a matter of a month or two he’d travelled through Holland and through Germany to get in striking distance of Berlin. That was in ’44 sort of thing. Towards the end of the war.
DE: Yeah.
GA: And he made, the two soldiers made it home safely but poor Lesley didn’t sort of thing.
DE: Yeah. And those are some of the photos that you’ve got of him.
GA: Yeah. Yeah.
DE: Yeah. The photo of Lesley’s got a shotgun under his arm hasn’t it?
GA: Yeah. Anybody, came to our house that was from out of the town or city they would really looked forward and loved being able to go out and shoot themselves a rabbit, you know. And we had access to that being [paused] Well, my father was a rabbit catcher for a one or two of the farms and my grandfather was a keeper down on Normanby Estate, he was, sort of thing. All his life. So we was never really starving but we ate rabbits in every way you could think of. You know. Rabbit pie, rabbit stew. Rabbit. Yeah.
DE: So what was life like in the village growing up then?
GA: Well, we, it was fun. I mean the farm yards was our playground. You know, you’d walk a mile to ride back on a horse and cart or something like that. And it’s, in the summertime you all congregated in the harvest field and there was a butcher’s or anybody there with a shotgun shooting rabbits because it was desperately needed in the town. The steelworkers were short on meat rations and everything like that so everybody was really appreciative of, of a rabbit or anything like that they could get as extra. And it was basically all. That was what you made your fun out of sort of thing. You helped where ever you could and you know even at a young age, not at five I don’t mean but you know as you grew up and that and lived and worked on and around the farm. I mean most of your schoolmates were farmer’s sons and things like that so it was a way of life. Has been all my life sort of thing so, which I’ve enjoyed anyway.
DE: Yeah. Was there electricity in the village?
GA: There was just beginning to get. Half the village. There had been a few new houses built just before the war and such like and I was fortunate to be born in to one and, but a lot of the other farm cottages still had no electricity and earth closet toilets that they emptied once a week. The dilly man used to come around and empty the slops out of those and such thing. Which wouldn’t have been a very pleasant job but somebody did it. So that’s sort of how you remember that. And most of the implements was horse drawn. There was one or two tractors beginning to get into the village but not many. But every farm still had the horses and such like. You used to get to ride on them coming back from the field. And things like that were the highlight of the day.
DE: So what was, what was school like?
GA: Flixborough School I quite put up with it. I enjoyed it sort of thing and, you know it was, it was sort of one small classroom with about five or six different years in. There was four in, four in our age group and then there’d be maybe one younger and one older. There would be four or five or six or seven depending on just how it fitted. But we was all in the same thing and we were given different work rotas to go on. Miss Hall was the teacher who looked after us and there was one for the two, the really young ones. There was a Miss Morris with a wooden petition between, in the room. And I think one thing we remember we’d be nineteen [pause] it would be just after the war but we had a really really bad winter in 1947 and Miss Hall used to come from Burton on the school, on the service bus every morning. And we was waiting to go into school there this particular morning and the snow was falling and very deep and it had been drifting. Anyway, Miss Hall never turned up off the, buses couldn’t get through so we all had a slide down the footpath like a sheet of glass and everything like that. About 10 o’clock Miss Hall turns up. She’d walked all the way from Burton. Two or three mile. And she’d dropped down off the road where the drifts were about five or six foot deep and walked through where there was a long wood between Burton and Flixborough and she’d walked there. And there was a pot bellied stove in the centre of the room and that was the only heating with an iron guard around it. And we sat there all day with Miss Hall’s bloomers steaming in front of this pot bellied thing [laughs] because she’d been wet up to her waist nearly. It amused us lads which you can imagine. Lasting memory of Flixborough School that.
DE: Right.
GA: She got through and, we didn’t like her at the time but I must say that she did more for my education than any other teacher did when I amazed everybody by passing my eleven plus and went to Scunthorpe Grammar School. I didn’t do much good there. It was Latin and algebra. I still haven’t found much of a use for it and but then I left there and started on the farm and did a course at Riseholme which I enjoyed. Did my National Service and I’ve been on the farm ever since. So —
DE: So what was it like at, at Riseholme?
GA: Well, I’ve, I enjoyed it because I knew from when I was three or four years old I wanted to be farm working or a farmer and such like and that’s all I was ever interested in. And anything to do with farming I would absorb it. But all this other stuff it, it’s just beyond me. So when I came back to Riseholme and we learned about all the different livestock procedures and the arable and all the new technology that was coming in because in those days the world wanted us to get us off rationing and produce all the food we could. You know. Plough every bit up you can. And, and it’s gone from one extreme to the other. Now, they pay you to grow rubbish, you know with these different set asides and things like that and so called environment things. I don’t know how much land is down to environmental different ways of doing things and there’s still no livestock.
[recording paused]
DE: Just paused and we’re back recording again now. So after, after your time at Riseholme then what happened?
GA: I did my National Service which was everybody did that in those days. And I had no option where I went. I just put down my preference and I was fortunate I got in to the RASC rather than an infantry regiment. And I did driver training after a fortnight in Aldershot I didn’t, I got posted then to Yeovil and we did driver training there and square bashing half a day and driver training all around Somerset and North Devon which was quite enjoyable. Then I was posted up to Retford to train as a tank transport driver. And we did a course there learning how to handle bigger vehicles. And then when the list went up to where you were going to be posted to two thirds of them went to, I think it was Paderborn in Germany. And I was posted to 19 Company which is still, it is now a prison camp between Retford and Worksop but that was 19 Company RASC in 1958/59 when I was there. And we got detailed out. You got a detail and you went out with a Diamond T tractor on a Dyson trailer and to go to either Tilbury or Manchester or Liverpool docks and pick up a tank and then move it to, they called them Central Vehicle Depots. And they were enormous set ups with thousands of vehicles and that. Some, there was Ashchurch and Tidworth on the Salisbury Plain. We took a lot of stuff down to Tidworth and Ludgershall on the Salisbury Plain. It was quite enjoyable. You only did a twenty five mile an hour and so you did about sixty mile and you went from one town to another and lived out of transport cafes and slept in your vehicle and you know you was a free range heavy haulier. That’s what it was and quite enjoyable. And if you thought there were some parades going on in camp that you was going to get back for you broke down so that you didn’t get back in time [laughs] You learned to work the system. But, yeah we did quite a bit of training in Sherwood Forest recovering tanks out of ponds and things like that as part of the training in those days. And then after I came out of the army I started with a young man who’d started farming in Flixborough. Then he got another farm in Waddingham and I’ve been with him ever since. I’ve got my gongs for long service from Lincolnshire Show. I think fifty years service. Fifty five or something like that. So, and even now I just go cut his grass in the orchard once a week and things like that.
DE: Right.
GA: So yeah it’s a life I’ve enjoyed. I would do it again but it would be totally different now.
DE: Yeah.
GA: With the technology that’s took over now.
DE: Yeah. I imagine. Yeah.
GA: Yeah.
DE: So how come you you’ve come here today with, with Helga?
GA: Well, we tried to trace Lesley’s, when the IBCC was opened up we heard it on Radio Lincolnshire and so we thought we’d have a ride over and see if we can locate him. And with the help of the very helpful staff there they found that he was Arthur Lesley rather than Lesley as we’d always known him and they found which tablet he was on. And we went there and put a poppy on it. And while I was there I told the lady there that Helga was at the other end of where all this was setting off from. And she seemed very interested and would Helga give her an interview? And that’s where we started from. How we’ve ended up here.
DE: Okey dokey. Smashing. I’m just thinking is there anything else that you’d like to tell me while the tape is still, still going?
GA: I can’t really think of anything in particular but unless you can prompt me anyway.
DE: No. It’s totally out of sequence because we’ve just been talking about last week but what can you tell me about your memories of VE Day?
GA: It’s, it was a big party in the Parish Hall at Flixborough and everybody’s mums and aunts and uncles they all produced some sort of food, you know. And there was a table full of food and drink and everything like that and it was a joyous celebration for everybody and that would be the Parish Hall in Flixborough where anything that happened in Flixborough was in the Parish Hall or the pub, sort of thing. The pub was open. That was before my drinking time but occasionally they used to put a film show on in the, in the Parish Hall occasionally. There was that one, “Ol’ Man River.” Was it, “Sanders of the River.” I can remember seeing that film. I can’t remember his name. Paul Robeson sung that, “Ol’ Man River,” and that and I can remember seeing that there and one or two other films over the months or years sort of thing and that was the heart of the activity. And it, you know it’s just a small isolated village like all villages were you know and news spread slowly between one village to the other. There weren’t many vehicles about and that. Pushbikes was one of the main means of transport.
DE: Before we started recording you were talking to me a little about the explosion.
GA: Oh yeah. That would be, was it ’73/74? It was when Nypro blew up. I was living and working on the farm at Waddingham as well as looking after the farm at Flixborough, the arable side. But we was chopping sugar beet out at twenty miles away at Brandy Wharf on the Ancholme Bank and we heard this rumble and we thought it’s going to be a thunder storm. Anyway, we carried on there and then when I went up to the house I had a landline telephone in those days and I got a phone call and said, ‘Did you know Nypro had blown up?’ I said, ‘No idea.’ And he said, ‘Is your mum all right?’ And I said, ‘No, I don’t, I’ve no idea. I shall have to try and find out what we can find,’ you know, ‘What’s happened.’ And anyway I did a few phone calls. Then I found out that my mother had gone, my cousin from Winterton had been down and fetched my mother who would have been eighty. Yeah. Eighty years. No. She, well in her seventies anyway and she’d been set in the front of the fire. I think she was watching snooker on the telly and that and all of a sudden the soot all came down the chimney and covered everything. And so she went out and got a shovel full of sand and put on the fire and then found out the front door was at the top of the stairs and the kitchen window was laid out on the lawn. And in a bit of confusion and I don’t know just how she sorted it out but sooner or later she got picked up and took up to Winterton to my cousin. But, and then on the Sunday we were allowed in it was, I don’t know it’s something you’ll never ever see again but the sky was black and there was curtains blowing out like a ghost village. You know. There was curtains blowing out of broken windows and everything. Because on the farm where I worked like there was hundreds or a thousand pigs in one place or another and we knew they hadn’t been fed on a Saturday evening so we went down to try and sort something out. We had a generator that we could put on because we’d no electric because we needed that to work the feeding system for the pigs. A liquid system it was with the, the fattening pigs. And these pigs was all up and down passages. There weren’t many dead pigs I don’t think. Maybe some of the very very small ones had got perished because of the infrared lights going out but the bacon pigs and anything reasonable was all running about. But the walls were down and they was all mixed and muddled up so we hadn’t any way to, we just poured this food on to the floor anywhere and everywhere we could and let them help themselves. So it was a terrible job. All the tiles was mixed in with the grain and so you couldn’t grind the next crop to feed up because we did all the milling and mixing. And so there was no electricity. We had to buy in food ready made sort of thing for them. And a lot of hard work to try and get things any, back to any sort of normality. And then it took months and months to get finally sorted out. And Mother’s house, the blast lifted rooves and put them back wrong and all the windows had blown in or blown out and it was, can’t believe what devastation it was you know.
DE: So how far away was the explosion from your mother’s house?
GA: It was just down the hill from my mother’s house. You know. Less than a mile sort of thing. And when you imagine the damage was happening four, five, six miles away and the row of houses that was downhill it devastated them. You know, not structurally, the walls hadn’t collapsed but they was beyond repair sort of thing. They didn’t think it worth repairing them. And I say it took absolute months to get, everything had to be redecorated and all the windows put back in and rooves re-roofed and it took terrible, terrible, months, years anyway to get sorted out again. And on the farm and that it was the same with all the farm buildings and that needed all re-roofing. And it caused a lot of work and worry. I think it was the largest peacetime explosion there’d been wasn’t it? Yeah. Then they knocked it all down. Cleared the site and rebuilt it. And then it was redundant in a few years and they knocked it down again. That was progress for you wasn’t it?
DE: Well, smashing. I think they’ve finished next door so we’ll wind that up. Thank you very much for —
GA: Right.
DE: For giving us your time.
GA: Of interest to somebody then.
DE: I’m sure it has. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gordon Atkinson
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAtkinsonG180802
Format
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00:24:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Atkinson lived in Flixborough, Lincolnshire. As a young boy he recalls seeing aircraft gathering over the River Humber in the evenings ready to fly out on bombing operations. In the morning he watched them come back, some with bits dropping off them and others flying on fewer engines. He also described seeing the red sky at night after Hull had been bombed. V-1s were sometimes seen and heard. He says that at times it was quite frightening, but you had to get on with life. During the build up to D-Day in 1944, thousands of troops were seen in the area practising for the landings, and later for the advance across Europe. His mother had three Canadian cousins, who came over during the war. Two were in the British army and one in the Royal Air Force. Arthur Lesley served as a wireless operator/air gunner in Halifaxes from RAF Linton on Ouse. The two army cousins survived the war, but Arthur was lost over the North Sea returning from an operation. Gordon describes life in the village during the war with plenty of fun around the farms, rabbit shooting to add to their food rations, and the VE Day celebrations in the village hall. Only about half the houses had electricity and most had outdoor closets which were emptied at regular intervals. After the war he completed his education in Scunthorpe before going to Riseholme College to study agriculture. After undertaking his 1958-59 National as a tank transporter driver, he returned to farming as his lifelong career. He also describes the explosion of the Nypro plant at Flixborough in 1974 and the effect it had on his mother’s house and the farms in the village.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Flixborough
England--Lincoln
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945-05
1947
1958
1959
1974
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
childhood in wartime
Halifax
home front
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Linton on Ouse
V-1
V-weapon
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/682/10085/ABaileyB-J180605.2.mp3
0d5e52bdb8fd6803ecd26159f05218e1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, Brian and Jenny
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Brian Bailey (b. 1928) and Jenny Bailey (b. 1930) and documents relating to Jenny's father Charles Goy service with the National Fire Service.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Brian and Jenny Bailey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bailey, B-J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FCB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. The people who are being interviewed are Brian and Jenny Bailey. The interviewer is myself, Cathy Brearley. The date is Tuesday the 5th of June 2018 and the interview is taking place at Brian and Jenny’s home in Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire. So, Jenny, I’ll start with you then. How old were you when war broke out?
JB: Eight.
CB: And do you remember when war was actually declared?
JB: Yes. On the Sunday. I can remember very clearly. My mum wrote a letter to my grandma who lived at Louth and we took it up to post at the end of the street and I saw this lady crying and I couldn’t understand why. Yeah. And that’s always stuck in my mind. Yeah.
CB: Did you ask your mum why she was crying?
JB: She said it was just because the war had started.
CB: Yeah.
JB: But didn’t say any more. Yeah.
CB: So, at that age it wouldn’t really —
JB: No. No.
CB: And what was your father doing in the way of work when —
JB: He was a joiner. Yeah. And he went to, out to black out the hospital. They did the blackouts.
CB: Yeah.
JB: They did all the whole hospital there. Yes. Yeah. He was, he worked there at, for Wilkinson’s for a long time and then he, they drafted him down the, down the docks because he was too old to be, he was too old to join up, wasn’t he?
BB: Ship repair.
JB: Yeah. He went in to ship repair work. Yeah.
CB: Yes.
JB: He was posted in to that.
CB: Right.
JB: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And did he do any war service? He did —
JB: He was fire. Fire. In the Fire Brigade. Yes.
CB: Auxiliary Fire Service. Yeah. And how often did he have to go out on duty?
JB: Every time the air raid went.
CB: Yeah.
JB: Yeah. And then of course he was called on if there was any big raids during the day where he was working. He went on there. Yeah.
CB: Did he ever say anything about what he’d seen or his experiences at the time?
JB: Yes. Some. Sorry, some of the, the bombing that had happened and the fires that he went to do sometimes were a little upsetting.
CB: Yeah.
JB: But he didn’t say a lot about it. No.
CB: No. So, at that time your mum was looking after you.
JB: Yeah.
CB: While he was out as a fire fighter.
JB: Yeah. That’s it.
CB: And did you have an Anderson shelter?
JB: Yes. Which we helped to build. Well, the hole to put it in. Yeah. We had to dig it all out. Yes. And we had an air raid shelter and we used to go in there every night when the raids came.
CB: And how often was that? How often were the raids?
JB: Oh, most nights for a long long time. We did have a lot of raids. Yes. And they used to sleep then in the air raid shelter and the next morning had to take the water out the sump because it was all full of water.
CB: So, what kind of comforts did you have in the Anderson shelter for your nights there?
JB: Well, dad had built some bunks and I don’t know, I suppose we had a bit of bedding. I don’t, I can’t remember that. I remember going in there every night and then, then of course when the raids really started out we came and watched all the searchlights from the bombs that were over the bridge which was on the sands. And when they were sort of like in a cross watch the German planes being bombed and brought down. We thought it was great.
CB: So, you could see the searchlights.
JB: Oh yes. They were very good like that. They crossed.
CB: Crossed.
JB: Yeah. Yeah. When they’d got the plane in the middle of the cross that was when they got them. Yeah. And then we could always hear all the shrapnel coming down on the roofs making an awful noise and, I don’t know where that’s gone. We haven’t got any now.
CB: You had some shrapnel that you’d saved.
JB: Oh yes. We had a lot. Thought it was lovely but it’s just disappeared now [laughs] Yeah, but it was quite a noise when it rattled on all the roofs you see. When this shrapnel came down.
CB: It must have been terrifying overnight.
JB: Yeah.
CB: In a shelter as a child.
JB: Yes. I think it was. Just seemed to accept it and that. I don’t know. I must have slept in the shelter because I mean I was up in the morning. Then do an ordinary day. So, yeah, but I remember. Oh, I can remember so clearly standing outside and hearing all these bombs. All these guns going off there because it is a lot. There were a lot of guns over there. Yeah.
CB: And there was a lot of bombs on Grimsby and Cleethorpes wasn’t there?
JB: Yes. Yes. We went to have a look at, there was a, called Hope Street and it was just about downed all the way from one end of the street to the other. It was completely bombed. That was very very bad. Yeah. Yeah, I think that was the same time as the Bon Marche was done when my dad, he was on there during the day and he got soaked from the rain. Not from the rain. From the water for the fire. You know, putting the fire out. Yeah. Because it was a full day there. It was a big, that was a big air raid. Yeah. We had quite a few air raids, didn’t we?
CB: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
CB: And what about rationing? Do you remember?
JB: Yeah. I didn’t have many sweets [laughs] I can remember that. Not many sweets. We had the dried eggs. Mum used to bake with the dried eggs and then after the war the first time I’d seen a banana and didn’t know what it was. And then we had banana sandwiches forever more [laughs]
CB: And people made a lot of their own clothes as well, didn’t they?
JB: Yes. Yes. My mum made all my clothes. Yeah. Of course, you only had so many coupons that you could use so sometimes you could get some second-hand clothes and use that material, you know. Unpick it and use that material. And she did a lot for other children in the street and that with their clothes as well. Yeah.
CB: So, she did that to earn a bit of extra money then.
JB: Yes. Yes, she did. Yeah, because there wasn’t a lot of money during the war. I remember we weren’t very well off at all. Not until my dad went down, down the docks and was working like a shipwright. Well, it was a shipwright, I think, wasn’t it? Shipwright. And he got more money. Never had so much money then as all the time because we weren’t very well off at all.
CB: What kind of ships did he work on?
BB: Damaged warships mainly.
CB: Damaged warships.
JB: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
JB: He was there all the time, wasn’t he?
CB: Yeah.
JB: Yeah. And during the war, yeah before he was sent down the docks he was still on the money and when they didn’t work they didn’t get any money you see. In the winter, being a joiner, in the winter, bad weather they were laid off and there was no money. There was no, no money for us or for my mum so during the time she had to, in the, what in the summertime she had to save money enough to keep us going during the winter when he was off.
CB: Yeah.
JB: But then when he was sent down docks that finished and so there was plenty of money. Yeah.
CB: And they only had you.
JB: Yeah.
CB: As a daughter.
JB: That’s it, yes.
CB: No other children.
JB: No.
CB: No.
JB: No. They waited six years for me [laughs] Yes. Is that alright?
[recording paused]
CB: So, Jenny, did your mum do any war work at all?
JB: No. She was a teacher before the, before she got married and then when she got married you’re not allowed to teach because they wouldn’t have any married women.
CB: Yeah. And what about the other local people in your area where you, the part of Cleethorpes where you were growing up?
JB: Yes.
CB: What was the main occupation then?
JB: Fishermen.
CB: Fishermen.
JB: Fishermen. Yes. And I was most of their family are grown up and had gone to the war, like in the Wrens and all in the Forces and of course, being the youngest I went amongst the family and I was brought up with them a lot. Yeah.
CB: So, you grew up with the —
JB: Fishermen.
CB: Fishermen’s families.
JB: Yes, yes and I got, you got all the superstitions because they were very superstitious. And of course, I still remember all those superstitions.
CB: Oh, tell me about those.
JB: Oh, one if you did if a husband went out to trawl.
BB: Friday.
JB: No.
BB: Oh dear.
JB: Went out. Went to sea.
BB: Yeah.
JB: To fish. Yeah. Well, you don’t wash on that day. Never when they go out because if you do you’re washing them out and they’ll never come back any more.
CB: I see.
JB: Yeah. I can’t remember any others. There was so many superstitions that they had. Yeah. And they stuck to all those superstitions. Yeah. And my dad’s best friend he took the trawler down to —
BB: Dunkirk.
JB: Yeah. Dunkirk.
CB: Did he?
JB: Yeah. To rescue them. He went three times. Yeah. So, it was quite a big thing because going up the Humber it’s not very wide and you’re going right the way out there in this little trawler. Yeah, because they’re not as big as, then they weren’t as big as what they are now. Yeah.
CB: How much notice do you think those trawlermen had for Dunkirk? For the evacuation.
JB: Not much.
BB: Not a lot.
JB: Not much time at all.
BB: Not a lot.
JB: No.
BB: I think probably about only a week or ten days. Something like that.
JB: Yeah.
BB: When the cry went out for the help from the small boats to go there so they could get in on the low water where the, on the shallow water where the bigger boats couldn’t go. So, the small boats went in to the, in to the shore, loaded up, back out to the bigger boats, offloaded. Repeat the journey. And so it went on. All the while being bombed and strafed by German aircraft. It must have been horrendous. It really must have been horrible.
CB: Yes. Yeah. So, Grimsby and Cleethorpes were quite badly bombed during the Second World War.
JB: Yes. They were. We got a lot of bombs. And from where this Fuller Street Bridge was at the end of the street we could go at the top of the bridge and you could see Hull where it was all, because very badly bombed and it was just like a, oh just fire all the way up in the sky from all these bombs that you could see from the top of the bridge. Yeah. I always remember that. But yes, we were badly bombed in lots of places.
BB: And the next one.
JB: Yes. I was going to school. I went to school on my bike and when I got to call for Mavis, my friend her house had gone. It was all bombed and I didn’t know. And this air raid man he wanted to know why I could go on there. Nobody had bothered me. I just went. That was it. Yeah. But she fortunately was saved and had got in somewhere else. So —
CB: Where had she gone to?
JB: Still in Cleethorpes. Across the road, a little way away. They had, did have, owned another house so they went in with these people for the time being. Yeah.
CB: So, as you arrived at the house and saw it, well —
JB: Gone.
CB: Flattened.
JB: Yeah. I just didn’t know what to do. I think I must have gone home. I don’t know what happened then but, yeah.
CB: Very frightening.
JB: It was quite a shock that. Yeah. It really was. That stands out in my mind. I can still see the big hole there that it was semi-detached and you know one side was alright and the other one had gone.
CB: Were many children evacuated?
JB: Yes. Quite, quite a lot. And mostly more or less from Grimsby more than Cleethorpes. I don’t know why. Yeah. A lot went to Louth and Spilsby and that area but a lot, mostly went to Louth.
CB: Brian, you’d said that school was suspended when the war broke out.
BB: Oh yes. School premises were taken over by authorities for various reasons and oh, it must have been the best part of nine months before they at long last got something organised and then until I was fourteen years of age school was mornings one week and after, and afternoons the following week. And so it went on. It, it was strange. And one silly thing I remember in particular. Air raid warning. Now, our school was one side of what is known as Town Hall Square in Grimsby. Our nearest shelter was the other side of the square. Air raid warning. Right. Scramble for the shelter. We were halfway across the square when the bombs went off a half a mile away. We were lucky the bombs were half a mile away and not in the square. But, oh yeah, that sort of life went on in those days. And then of course at fourteen I went to a different school and that was full time. But thirteen years of age I joined the Air Training Corps and learned a lot of things. Bits about Morse code and navigation and that sort of thing. We would be taken out to school playgrounds on Sundays to do the marching up and down to get up and down. To learn all that sort of thing. About once a month on Sundays we would be taken out to RAF North Coates which is oh seven or eight miles south of Cleethorpes on the Humber, on the Humber Bank. Coastal Command aircraft. Bristol Beaufighters, torpedo aircraft. We saw those. We were allowed to go and sit in the pilot’s seat would you believe? And we saw all sorts. We saw in the workshops where they were preparing ammunition, preparing the guns and all that sort of thing and on one occasion we even saw the damaged remains of a Mosquito aircraft which had crash landed on the edge of the airfield because it had been damaged in flight. On other occasions in the Air Training Corps, we would go to, for a week’s camp on an RAF station. And one in particular I remember we were taken to the command post at the edge of the runway where the man in charge would give a green light to each bomber in turn to go and take-off. And then when they’d all gone, in bed, in this caravan woken up again to greet them all coming back in the morning. And we were taken on a, on a truck to go down the runway with flame [pause] Yes, a flaming torch to light up the watering cans type of thing which were full of oil to form runway lights.
CB: That’s FIDO. F I D O. FIDO. Isn’t it?
JB: No. FIDO. It was something. FIDO was done to try and get rid of fog.
CB: Oh, fog dispersal. Yeah.
JB: Yeah. But these on a lot of these RAF stations they had no electricity down the runway and these were paraffin flares they used to use to light up the runway for the incoming aircraft.
CB: So, you had to light them up individually.
JB: Oh yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JB: Yeah. We went, went in a little van and hop out, light that one up, hop back in. Go around [laughs] For a, you know, youngster of sort of fourteen, fifteen years of age that sort of thing was very exciting. But home life it was strange. My home at that stage was about a mile and a half north of the main runway of RAF, what was known as Grimsby/Waltham. So, when they were taking off in that particular direction firstly in the early days they were Wellington bombers. Then they became Lancaster bombers. You’d see them struggling up in, up in to the air [coughs] excuse me. Only perhaps a sort of a quarter of a mile away from the bottom of your garden and to see the way they struggled to go some of those aircraft it was frightening.
CB: With a big bomb load.
JB: Oh yeah. I mean, when you think about it. And then ultimately and of course as, as we found out when we visited your site in Lincoln eight, over eight hundred men flew out from that airfield and never came back.
CB: You’re mentioning the Chadwick Centre and the Memorial Spire with that on it.
JB: That’s right. Yeah. In much later life when I eventually was, after the war finished because I was that much too young to be involved I was called up and I spent three, nearly three years in the RAF. Most of it at Binbrook. And whilst I was there I did manage on one Saturday morning to go flying in a Lancaster.
CB: Wow.
BB: My head was still thumping on Monday morning. How those crews ever managed to stick it for eight or nine hours at a time I would, never could understand and I haven’t, can’t understand to this very day. But, oh dear. Memories like that stick in your mind.
CB: I imagine. Yes. Was that service part of National Service?
BB: No. It was in the interim before National Service. National Service was fixed at two years. I was called up in 1946 when the original conscription rules still applied. So, I went in. I didn’t know, I had no idea when I was coming out. It was what were known as age and length of service. So having been called up early in 1946 I got home a few days before Christmas in 1948. Spent most of it in an office pushing a pen. But even that, I did, hopefully I did my bit. Somebody had to push a pen.
CB: Why was it that you chose that rather than any of the other services? I suppose you’d done your Air Training Corps hadn’t you? So —
BB: Well, Air Training Corps took me on to RAF. And of course, it had all been a bit of brotherly animosity I suppose between my brother and I. He was in, he was in the Navy and came back with gold braids so you had to be very careful if ever you were out, out in the street with him. And I didn’t want any of that. But as I say I had been, I had been RAF. Air Training Corps. So, RAF was the choice.
CB: Yes.
BB: And there we are.
CB: And you said as a thirteen year old in the Air Training Corps you weren’t entitled to have a uniform because they were only given to fourteen year olds.
BB: At fourteen years. Yeah. But we did. We did get one. We managed to get them before we were fourteen but one other thing that sticks in my mind from that time was being down the bottom of the garden one tea time to feed the one or two chickens that we were, we had at that time and the sound of an aircraft coming and I looked up. There was a Heinkel 111 coming across. Not more than about a hundred and fifty feet up and I could see the crew. See the outline of the crew inside it. I went inside that, inside that chicken hut a bit quick. Out of sight. But you know those sort of silly things that stick in your mind.
CB: And do you think the Air Training Corps was good preparation for when you did spend time in the RAF?
BB: Well, yeah. You’d, you’d learned a certain amount of discipline. The routine of marching in, and that sort of thing which helped when you first did your first six weeks of so-called square bashing. But beyond that no because they weren’t looking for people with knowledge of navigation and Morse code and that sort of thing.
CB: But you got your badges in the Air Training Corps.
BB: Not now. No.
CB: No.
BB: No. They all, they all went back with the uniform when it was handed in. When you, when you, when you ceased being with the Air Training Corps all your uniforms went back in.
CB: But you said to me earlier that it was because you ‘d got the badges that you got your uniform earlier than you might have done.
JB: That’s right because they had to be sewn on. There was somewhere all the badges were sewn on and we’d nowhere to sew them was our argument and that’s, that’s how we won that one.
CB: And they must have ranks in the Air Training Corps.
JB: Oh yes. The ranks within the Air Training Corps were exactly the same as RAF and you were [pause] quite what the basic, you couldn’t call them an airman. You’d call them a cadet. An Air Cadet. But then of course you could be a corporal cadet, a sergeant cadet and so on but by the time you got to sergeant cadet you were call up age so you vanished into the RAF.
CB: And your brother Peter, he was older than you.
BB: Oh, he’s seven years older than I.
CB: So, he was in the Navy.
BB: He was in the Navy. He started as, in the sick bay as an attendant. Sick bay attendant. And then for whatever reason managed to get transferred to the Fleet Air Arm. Went to Canada for training and came back from Canada with gold braid all over his sleeve and then had an accident playing rugby and was invalided out as unfit. So as far as I’m aware he never fired a shot in anger. He spent some time in civvy street as it was known and then was recalled to the Fleet Air Arm in time for the Korea crisis.
CB: Oh really?
BB: Then of course he eventually returned to civvy street and carried on a civilian life for the rest of his life. But —
CB: It must have seemed strange to you as a teenage boy with your older brother disappearing off to Canada.
BB: Well, it was one, it was the sort of situation in those days where a serviceman would go and he would seem to vanish from the situation. From the day to day life and letters were a rarity coming from overseas like that. And I had very little to do with, oh for what, two, three years or more. Never saw him because he was away in Canada. And then again, the age gap was such that his interests were vastly different to mine and he was away and carrying on his civilian life. He got, he was married and got a child long before I did. I mean, Jenny and I married in 1952. He was married in 1944. You know. So —
CB: And did you have any other brothers and sisters?
BB: Sorry?
CB: Did you have any brothers and sisters?
BB: No. No. There were just the two of us. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: And then just coming back to Cleethorpes and Grimsby and this area there are two Humber Forts aren’t there? In your area.
JB: Yes.
BJ: Yes.
CB: Can you tell me about them?
[pause]
BB: The only thing I can really say about those that they were built First World War and a net was stretched between them to prevent submarines access.
CB: Oh.
BB: And of course, they had the usual complement of guns and whatnot. During the, in between the wars the nets were all removed but when the Second World War started those nets were reintroduced and between the forts and the shore there were concrete blocks. Rectangles probably measuring six feet, six foot cube.
CB: Right.
BB: And a row of those from fort to shore on both sides of the river. And there was, I believe a gap somewhere in the middle to allow our trawler fleets and our other, and naval vessels access in and out. And then of course it was all removed at the end of the Second World War but the forts are still there. They’re semi derelict. They’re not put to any practical use at all.
CB: I think one’s for sale, isn’t it?
BB: I think so. There’s been all sorts of bright ideas of having them as sort of holiday lets and recuperation centres for the drug addicts and all sorts of things but nothing has ever really ever happened. Would you agree with that Jenny?
JB: Yeah. I don’t, I’ve not heard anything.
CB: No.
BB: But they’re still there today and occasionally when, if you, if we’re down on the Promenade strangers might ask, ‘What are they?’ But that’s a bit of a rarity anyway.
CB: I imagine they, in the Second World War they would have been a good gun position.
BB: Oh, I imagine. Yes, indeed.
CB: That must have lit the sky up. Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
JB: It would.
BB: But all the way down the coast —
JB: Because of course they, during, during the beginning part of the war they chopped part of the pier off. The end on the pier off because they didn’t want the Germans to go, come up on the pier and if they cut it off it wouldn’t be able to —
CB: They couldn’t land the aircraft on it.
JB: No. No, they were thinking of coming up the Humber and then —
BB: Using it —
JB: Walking up the pier.
CB: Oh, I see. Oh, access by land. Yeah.
JB: But I mean, I don’t think they would have waited to have got on the pier. Because they chopped quite a bit of the pier off.
CB: I think that happened in other places. I’m aware that happened to some on the south coast as well.
JB: Which to me was a bit of a stupid idea because they wouldn’t be waiting to come up. They’d come up the other way wouldn’t they?
CB: I know the ones on the south coast they were deliberately destroyed.
JB: Oh yeah.
CB: By the locals there and Home Guard so that they couldn’t be landed on by, by the aircraft coming over the Channel.
JB: I think this was when they were thinking that we would be invaded.
CB: Yes.
JB: I think it was that way they thought.
CB: Yes.
JB: That’s why cut the end off.
CB: Yeah. So, there wouldn’t be a landing.
BB: But here it was done in case they wanted to bring landing craft up and off load the men on to the pier. Well, which was a daft idea. You don’t do that. You offload them straight out and on to the sands and up. But one of the strange things about Cleethorpes Pier during the war having removed a section to avoid, to obviate walking access if you like there was a café at the far seaward end and one night that got on fire and nobody knew how that got on fire because there was no way of getting down to it. Strange. That was a strange one that one.
CB: And there were Americans, Air Force based in the area as well, weren’t there?
JB: Yes.
BJ: Yes.
JB: Well, we had German, German prisoners of war in the woods, didn’t we?
BB: Yeah. Oh yeah. We were, we were thickly populated by American troops. I mean they were all over the town.
CB: Whereabouts were they based? Which was their base?
BB: Well, some were based just off the, now then. Yeah. The A46 as it comes through Grimsby and heads for Cleethorpes. There’s a wooded area there and the Americans were there for a while. Their Air Force bases were north of Grimsby and Immingham. Further up the, up towards Hull on the south side of the Humber Estuary and we used to see them around but one of the sights we used to see if we ever went down the main street, the main shopping street in Grimsby were the crowds of these American forces people at one of the little shops. What’s the word I’m looking for? A laundry. A laundromat. And they would go there and they would, they’d take turns to go in, take their trousers off, have their trousers pressed, put the trousers on, come back out again. And they used to queue up in that little shop there in Freeman Street. Oh dear.
CB: And how were the Americans on the streets in Grimsby and Cleethorpes viewed?
BB: Well, again I mean we I suppose we just tolerated them you know. We put up with them.
JB: Well, the elder people, the elder people were busy going out with them.
BB: Oh yeah.
JB: They had a lovely time.
CB: There was a lot of romances were there?
JB: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: Oh yeah. I remember.
JB: They had a really good time. Yeah.
CB: The silk stockings.
JB: Oh yes. Yes. The nylons for the first time.
BB: Chewing gum.
JB: Yeah.
BB: That was another favourite.
JB: That’s it.
BB: But one thing that happened in here in in Grimsby there were clubs for the American boys. The whites went in the one up there, the blacks went in the one over there.
CB: Really?
BB: Socially they were not allowed to mix. Just as it was in, way back in America at that time.
CB: And that would have been unusual here.
BB: Oh, it was. I mean it was a thing unheard of here. But then again until the coloured Americans came over here during the war coloured people were a rarity.
CB: In this area. Yes.
BB: Yes. In this part of the world.
CB: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
BB: There really —
CB: Was there a sense that the British were pleased that the Americans were joining forces with us?
BB: I suppose looking back in hindsight over all these years we couldn’t have done it without them.
CB: No. We —
JB: Well, we didn’t know a lot about the Americans. We weren’t old enough to go out with them. No.
BB: Well as children of course. As children and early teenagers.
JB: We couldn’t.
CB: No.
BB: These sort of things —
JB: No.
BB: Didn’t occur to us. But you know all these years later and you think about, think back about them. Yes. They were a necessity. I mean we could, we could never ever have built enough aircraft, tanks, and other aircraft and ships to be able to carry on on our own. We needed the help that came not only from America but from all the Commonwealth countries, Australia, South Africa, Canada, you know. We couldn’t have done without those. No way. If it hadn’t been for those people coming in and help I think jolly old Adolf would have had his way. But thankfully he didn’t.
CB: Indeed. What about conscientious objectors? I know there was a lot in the First World War and people were given badges to wear if they were on home leave or if they were exempt or injured out so that they wouldn’t be given the white feather.
JB: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah.
CB: Did that happen a great deal during the Second World War?
JB: I don’t remember.
BB: I’ve no idea.
JB: I don’t think we were old enough to understand sort of thing.
CB: No. No.
BB: It’s something we, we couldn’t comment on because we just didn’t, we didn’t meet up with it did we?
JB: No.
BB: No.
JB: Well, we weren’t old enough were we? When you think.
BB: Well, no. I mean —
CB: I suppose it also depends on people’s ages in the sense of whether they were too old to be conscripted or too young.
JB: Yes.
CB: And therefore, people either were exempt for age.
JB: That’s it. Yes.
CB: Or they served.
JB: Yeah.
BB: Yeah.
CB: As opposed to anybody objecting. Being a conscientious objector.
JB: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. In many respects amongst all the other memories we have I’m thinking about, I’m talking of my own experiences. Jenny can probably come up with something very similar from the area that she lived in in those days. Next door but one there were two brothers. Again, they were older. They were my brother’s age. One was, they both went in the RAF. One was a fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain. The other one became a navigator. The fighter pilot survived the war and became a school teacher. The navigator stayed in the RAF and several years post-war was killed in a flying accident. Next door but one beyond them again there was two boys. Similar of age group to my brother and I. The elder boy, paratrooper was sent to Arnhem and didn’t come back. I mean that was in the space of what half a dozen houses. Go around the corner and there was the eldest boy in the house and another family down there. He went and didn’t come back. Those are the sort of things that this interview with you are dragging up from the back of the grey cells you know. Whether these sort of recollections will mean a great deal to the younger generation.
JB: I think they’re more for the what happened to us. How we felt things during the war.
BB: Yeah.
JB: Aren’t they?
BB: But —
CB: I think it’s an important part of our history and there’s a lot of these sort of stories that are listened to by young people and in schools and part of education programmes. Visits to the Chadwick Centre.
BB: Yeah.
CB: And other memorials and it is being kept alive which is important.
BB: Yeah.
CB: So what would happen, obviously mourning the loss of a family member or family members would be very different because so many people died overseas. Obviously, somebody dies here today you know there’s a funeral.
JB: Yeah.
CB: And there’s a mourning isn’t there? But I guess in wartimes and when people died overseas there wouldn’t have been any sort of memorial event.
JB: No.
CB: At the time.
JB: No. That’s quite true.
BB: No. The only thing that I can comment on and this is because I’ve been reading about it recently would be an aircrew didn’t come back and within a couple of hours of knowing they weren’t coming back ground staff at their base station would go to wherever their bed space was, clear all their gear out, swap the bedding and probably the next night a different, different set, different crew of men would be sleeping in those beds. Their personal effects parcelled up and sent back to their families. That’s, you know, that’s the only thing I can really say about what you, the question you just asked.
CB: And I imagine there are memorials in Grimsby and Cleethorpes obviously to honour those—
JB: Yeah.
CB: Who served and died.
BB: Oh yes. Yeah. In several churchyards there are groups of graves. I mentioned North Coates earlier on. There‘s a, the church there is on a corner in the village and just over there they are. Men that died or came back wounded and died or were dead when the dead, they were buried there in that village. And another village halfway between here and Louth just off the village square there’s a grassed area and on that grassed area there is a circle of paving and inset in to that paving are the names and ranks of seven members of a crew of a bomber which was flying around near that village, giving aircraft a tech practice to a fighter which was the case. You know, the fighter comes in and the bomber does his evasive. The bomber took the evasive and a wing snapped off.
CB: Oh.
BB: There were probably only five, you know probably weren’t above a thousand feet. They hadn’t a, hadn’t a chance to get out. And it crashed a few, you know very, only a few hundred yards from the village and the Memorial is there in the village square. That village now has an annual Forties day or weekend and we always go, don’t we to that and have a look at it and it brings back a few memories.
CB: I imagine. I was going to ask you about that. Yes.
BB: Because of the people who have the memories of, you know the Forties Association and all these various things and they will come along with the jeep and the lorry that we managed to keep in working order all through the years. But when, when we go Jenny and I, we always sort of walk around and just pay our respects at that particular little memorial.
CB: It’s a very big annual event, isn’t it?
BB: It is.
CB: And quite rightly so.
JB: Yes. I think so. Yes. I do.
CB: And they put on an air display as well, don’t they?
JB: They do. Yes. Yes.
BB: Yes. There’s one scheduled.
JB: I think there’s got to be something like this though for the young ones because when we’ve gone there will be nobody else to say anything will there?
CB: That’s right. That why it’s so important to capture —
JB: Yeah.
CB: Your memories now and they are listened to.
JB: Because they won’t, well there can’t be that many more years for any of us can there?
CB: No. But there is a lot of interest.
JB: Yeah.
CB: A lot of interest. And a lot of students, historians, researchers, academics. But there’s also a lot of young people.
JB: That’s good. Yes. Good. Yeah.
CB: And Grimsby and Cleethorpes was the first towns to be bombed by the butterfly bombs. The anti-personnel bombs.
JB: Yes. We were.
BB: Yes. Southampton was the other one.
CB: Right.
BB: They were the only two places.
CB: Yeah.
BB: One other thing we experienced too was the V-1. There was just one, maybe two nights. The V-1s, a load of V-1s were brought and dropped from aircraft out, out beyond the Humber, coming in off the North Sea. And we remember them coming over here and going inland. None of them fell locally here that I, I can recall. But the, the butterfly bombs. Oh, they were finding them tucked away in gutters on top of premises for years after the end of the war. And that particular night it caused quite a lot of havoc around Grimsby. We had trolley buses in that, in those days. The trolley, the power lines were down and a friend of mine and I on that following morning we were on our bikes and off going to have a look round to see what had happened in town and I can remember cycling in in the centre of town and coming across a number of little sandbag enclosures. Only probably three feet square. A couple of, two and a half three feet high and as you cycled past you looked down and there was a butterfly bomb in the bottom. And you know, again we’re talking very early teenage and the implication of, you know what they, what they were and what they could do just didn’t register.
CB: So those bombs were different in that they didn’t explode on impact.
JB: No. They were very different.
BB: No. They didn’t explode on impact. It was when you moved them. Somebody moved them off they went.
JB: Or walked into them.
BB: Oh yeah, I mean people would sort of walk along and they would —
JB: And this is why, going down the [unclear] that’s why so many were killed, I think. Because you see you didn’t, we didn’t know anything about them at all. We were the first ones so of course when it happened it was too late to tell anybody then wasn’t it?
CB: And I suppose if there’s a lot of rubble that’s being cleared.
JB: Yeah.
CB: You came across them in that way.
JB: Yeah. This is it.
BB: Oh, and then —
JB: And they got into some peculiar places, you know.
CB: Yeah.
JB: They really did. Because they weren’t very big.
CB: No.
JB: So —
BB: Oh no. It’s not very big but oh there were tales —
JB: It seems a long time ago now though, doesn’t it?
BB: Oh, it is. It’s an awful long time ago but no it’s [pause] this discussion today has stirred up a lot of memories for both of us.
CB: It tends to do that.
JB: Yeah [laughs] yeah.
BB: Some things which you’ve, you’ve forgotten. Almost totally forgotten, you know.
JB: You must have seen an awful lot over the years.
CB: I’ve heard lots of stories.
JB: I bet you have.
CB: And my mum being a child.
JB: Yeah.
CB: In London.
JB: Yeah.
BB: Is that still, is that —?
CB: Yes. She [pause] it was part of my mum’s stories and my grandparent’s stories.
JB: Yeah
CB: Were a part of my childhood.
JB: Yeah.
CB: But obviously for future generation it‘s different.
JB: Yes. That’s it.
CB: But thank you ever so much both of you.
JB: That’s alright.
CB: For giving us this interview. Really, really fascinating and very interesting to hear how it was for you as children growing up.
JB: Yeah. It was different.
CB: And young people.
JB: Yeah. Very different. Yeah.
CB: And in this particular area as well it shows that —
JB: Yeah.
CB: You know, it was literally everywhere that was affected. So, thank you ever so much.
JB: That’s alright.
BB: And thank you to you for your patience in listening to us.
JB: Yeah [laughs]
CB: You’re very welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Brian and Jenny Bailey
Creator
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Cathy Brearley
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaileyB-J180605
Format
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00:49:33 audio recording
Coverage
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Civilian
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Brian and Jenny Bailey were children during the war and witnessed the bombing of Cleethorpes and Grimsby. They could also stand on a local bridge and see Hull in flames. Jenny recalled walking with her mother on the day war was declared and seeing a woman crying in the street. When she asked her mother why she was crying she was told it was because of the news of the start of war. Her father worked as a fireman and was also employed in the docks. She recalls seeing Hope Street reduced to rubble. One day she went to call on her friend to go to school together and found her friend's house was destroyed. She describes the superstitions of the fishermen and their families to ward of tragedy.
Brian’s house was a mile and a half from RAF Grimsby Waltham and could see the airfield clearly. Eight hundred aircrew from this airfield were killed on operations. The air raid shelter for his school was across the square and once as the air raid siren sounded they made their way across the square as bombs began to fall a half a mile away. Brian joined the ATC and took great pleasure in the activities of his squadron including time spent on the airfield lighting the paraffin lamps on the runway to guide back returning aircraft.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Hull
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
RAF Grimsby
shelter
superstition
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/688/10096/ABaptisteDMM170504.2.mp3
1dc27df23af9a2bfa31f201bae8fd069
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baptiste, Daphne
D M M Baptiste
D Baptiste
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Daphne Baptiste (b. 1921) and a wedding album. She worked as a civil servant in the air Ministry.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daphne Baptiste and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Baptiste, DMM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Thursday the 4th of May 2017 and I’m in Epsom with Daphne Baptiste who experienced the war as a civilian and married an Army officer later on in the war. But Daphne, what are your earliest recollections of life?
DB: My earliest recollections are, date from when I was four years old and I can remember I hadn’t started school, my mother was on her knees in our little house in Becontree. She was washing the kitchen floor. She had the bucket and a mop there and was on her knees at the time and suddenly we heard two loud bangs and I rushed to her side, a four year old frightened of these two loud bangs. And I said to her, ‘What’s that? What’s that?’ And she said, ‘Shhh. Just be quiet and I will tell you in a moment.’ And that’s when I had my first history lesson and she told me about the First World War and how we now respected people who had given their lives in the First World War and remembered them on November the 11th each year to give them the respect that they deserved. That’s my earliest memory. My other earliest memory is being taken to hospital with diphtheria. Again, I was four years old and my mother had lost her own brother when he was two and a half years old with diphtheria. It was a serious illness and you can imagine how distraught the family were at the thought that I also might die from this children’s serious illness. I didn’t fortunately. Obviously. And, but I came out after seven weeks in hospital not having had any visitors other than my father standing outside the large ward window looking at me as he cycled from Becontree up to the City of London to join his fire station where he was on duty at that time. That would be 1925 I suppose and [pause] but I came out of hospital unable to walk. My parents had to hire a little old pushchair and took me away on holiday with the rest of the family and, and I soon regained the ability to walk but just for a while that was the result of diphtheria.
CB: So, what did your father do as a job?
DB: My father was a fireman. He had been in the Navy for two years at the start of the First World War. He’d been invalided out with an injury. He’d been crushed by some machinery I think in the engine room and invalided out. He wanted to marry my mother. They had met and he wanted to marry her and she wouldn’t marry him until he had a job so he joined the London Fire Brigade. She wouldn’t marry him still until her brother could come home from the Army. This was First World War. Her brother was on the Somme, fighting in the Somme and she used to tell us when we were children that she prayed every night of her life that her brother would get a blighty one which meant a slight wound. A small wound. Enough to bring him home. And he did. He was wounded in the arm and he came home and he was able to be, he was able to give her away at her wedding to my father. So, and my father stayed in the London Fire Brigade all through the war. The First World War. Rescued children from a burning building. We think probably set on fire by German Zeppelins. We’re not sure about that but they were certainly active at that time and he rescued six children one by one from this burning building. The adults and children on the ground floor were killed in that fire but he managed to get six children out from the first floor and was given the medal of the OBE after the First World War in recognition of bravery, gallantry which was a cause of pride in the family at the time.
CB: So then in the interwar years while you and your siblings were young what was happening then?
DB: With my father and his career? He stayed in the Fire Service and I can’t think which particular year that would be, nineteen, late 1920s possibly he was promoted to be in charge of a fire station. And because he had had even two years experience in the Navy they gave him the Fire Boat Station at Battersea Bridge. On the corner of Battersea Bridge, and so we the family all moved to Battersea. Lived on the bridge, on the corner of the bridge there and had opportunities to go on the fire boats and see what went on there. And then seven years after that he, a new Fire Brigade Headquarters was built just by Lambeth Bridge opposite Millbank and the Houses of Parliament and he was given command of the fire boats there and remained there until his retirement. Right through the war he was in charge of the fire boats from Westminster to Chiswick. Had a very lively war. They were not only trying to deal with fires along by the riverside, the docks and, and the oil fires but also they were often called out to relay water from the Thames even up to two miles because the engines couldn’t always get through the roads. The roads were too heavily bombed. And so that certainly happened when there were fires at Piccadilly. I think that was possibly one that a couple of miles of hose laying. I suppose a man could get through guiding the hoses through. I’m not sure how it happened but [pause] but it did happen. And he was allowed to retire, 1944 when the worst of the raids were over although we were still having V-1 and V-2 raids but not so frequently as during the war we had raids every night. And when we came up out of the shelters of the Fire Brigade Headquarters the shelters were simply bunk beds that were provided for us in the basement and we would see the firemen running through the basement to where ever their appliance was. Their, their engines or whatever. We thought that was quite exciting when we were teenagers I suppose, one has to admit. But, but it was, it was a very lively time. We understood that because the Fire Brigade Headquarters had been built on a raft, I think that’s a building term, right by the river every time bombs fell in the river and they did, they were dropped in the river. That was a guiding light for German bombers very often especially if there was a moon and bombs would be dropped in the river and the building, the whole building, nine floors would shake but we didn’t ever have one broken window because it just moved. The vibration.
CB: So, he was looking after the river between Westminster and Chiswick.
DB: Yes.
CB: A lot of the bombing was further east.
DB: Oh yes.
CB: To what extent was he drawn in to that?
DB: Oh yes. In fact, he, no this is going back through the war. He almost went to Dunkirk but the Fire Brigade Headquarters people decided that they would send over to Dunkirk the fire boats as far as Blackfriars or Cherry Garden. I’m not sure which was the final one. But that they must retain some fire boats in London in case bombing started there. It hadn’t started there then and so my father wasn’t sent there but, but certainly he was at the docks, he was at the oil fires and, and where ever they were called upon to go and they very often drew all the fire engines and fire boats to all over different parts of London. I can remember there was Raphael Tuck’s Christmas Greetings Cards building next to us. Next to the Fire Brigade Headquarters. That was burned to the ground and people could be quite rude about that and say it was next to the Fire Brigade Headquarters what were they doing when that building was on fire? But every engine was out, every fire boat was out dealing with fires at different places. They certainly were called upon to travel quite widely in, in and around London.
CB: So which floor were you on? Living.
DB: We lived on the sixth floor. Sixth floor. There were nine floors all together and the night of the very big City fire my sister and I went up on to the roof, that’s above the ninth floor and looked across to the city and we could see the whole of St Paul’s Cathedral surrounded by flames there. The city had suffered very much in that. In that raid. And the only firemen left in the headquarters were a few, no engines again but they were up on the roof with stirrup pumps and buckets and as incendiary bombs fell on the roof they would go and put them out from their stirrup pumps and buckets. Put the fires out before they could get a hold on the building.
CB: And as children what did you, how did you feel about this huge perspective of fire?
DB: This was before the war, you mean?
CB: No. In the war.
DB: In the war.
CB: So, you’re watching. You’re watching the fires burning.
DB: Well, children. You see I was seventeen, eighteen, upwards then.
CB: Yeah.
DB: My sister was two years younger. A year and eight months —
CB: Yeah.
DB: Younger than I was. And you didn’t enjoy it. I used to think to myself if we survive all this I’ll never grumble about anything ever again. Well, of course I did. I have [laughs] But, but that was how you felt at the time. You didn’t know whether you would survive the night. You didn’t know whether you might be surrounded by fire even where you lived. Certainly, when I worked in the Air Ministry in London and I did first aid duty for the Air Ministry and was called out to raids. We took shelter probably once every two weeks. Slept in the basement again with these huge pipes that supplied water I think to the whole building and I used to wonder and was frightened at the thought of it. What would happen if the building was bombed and those pipes burst and we would be down there? What would happen to us? Yes. You were quite frightened but nevertheless you just had to get on with whatever was needed. I can remember coming up in the mornings and walking across rubble from some of the bombed buildings. It wasn’t, it was a difficult time to live but somehow you were given the strength to get on and do what you had to do. And we were very relieved when the time came that the bombing started, when it stopped every night even if you had one night’s rest you were thankful. And then after a break of course when the V-1s started and that was another different experience.
CB: 1944. Yeah.
DB: And they were still coming over to our country even when my husband had taken part in the Normandy landings and was wounded and came home. That was still going on. And then later on I was working when the first rocket, the first V-2 fell. I think that was in Chancery Lane. I was working in High Holborn in another Air Ministry building and I think that fell in Chancery Lane not that far away. It didn’t do us any, it didn’t do our building any damage but we were quietly working and suddenly heard this tremendous bang. It was a loud bang when the first rockets came over and, because we didn’t know what it was. And then you gradually began to, the news percolated through that it was the Germans latest weapon of war and, and we had many of them after that. That was 1944/45, I suppose. Going towards the end of the war.
CB: Going back to your father and the early stages of the war Dunkirk was the end of May, early June 1940. Then the bombing started seriously in London in the autumn.
DB: Yes. September.
CB: So, to what extent did your father describe what he was doing fighting the fires?
DB: He didn’t really talk a lot about of it at home. He was very very tired because it was constant. It was every night. At the beginning of the bombing he was out for three days and nights without sleep and because he was the officer in charge all his men came and went, did their day duty or their night duty and then went home and had a break. But for those first three days and nights he was on the fire boat the whole time and I think he was going to be going out again and my mother was absolutely distraught about that and went to see the chief officer [laughs] and said, ‘You can’t send him out again.’ And he didn’t. He gave him a night’s leave to come home and sleep and I suppose a subordinate officer took over. But then it happened again. Every, every night but at least a break in between and I mean we did hear over the years different things that might happen but, but he didn’t ever go in to any detail. Whether he thought it would be distressing for us. We would hear the buildings that he’d been to like Piccadilly and relaying hoses. We would hear that sort of information but nothing, nothing of the suffering. We would hear if any of his men had been killed. One or two I think were sent overboard from the boat in to the river and were not always able to be rescued although they could all swim. But, but no. We didn’t hear a lot about the suffering from my father.
CB: But the loss rate of civilians and of fire crews was quite considerable.
DB: Certainly, all the land crews I think maybe the land crews did have a greater number of casualties than the Fire Boat crews because some who might have been knocked in to the river would have been able to swim to the shore and be rescued. However, that was. But land crews, yes my own brother was a fireman stationed in the East End of London and the East End suffered very heavily. And one night there was bombs were dropped and I think it was a laundry fire and he, I think all the generator boxes were blown up all down the street that he was in, helping to put out the fires and he was blown in to the middle of the road and he, every bone in his foot, in one foot was broken and he spent the next year in hospital. The Fire Brigade or the Ministry of Defence, whatever it was then were trying out a new type of treatment that they had discovered through the Spanish Civil War where they had discovered people injured by the roadside who not been able to be rescued for a long time and their wounds had healed in their own gangrene. And my brother’s foot went gangrenous and he was taken in to hospital at Ripley in Surrey and they tried this, this treatment on him putting plasters on, I think once a month. However long it was. Leaving it on. And those wounds were left in their own gangrene and he had to be moved in to his own ward because his wounds and what came from his wounds was affecting the throats of other patients and so he was put in a ward on his own. And, and those plasters were put on for a year and then at the end of the year the doctors said to my parents because he wasn’t married, my brother, he was still at home and they said, ‘Now, your son’s wounds have healed but if we leave things as they are he’s going to be more of a cripple with that foot than without it. So we want you to make the decision, you and your son whether he should have that foot removed.’ And my brother was engaged to be married at the time so the fiancé was brought in to that too and my brother did decide to have the foot just below the knee. His leg was taken off and, which was very sad. It left him disabled of course for the rest of his life but —
CB: So, just putting that in to context the Spanish Civil War was 1936 to ’39.
DB: Yes.
CB: Were there people from the civil war who were part of the medical staff?
DB: I wouldn’t know. I don’t know that. No. I’ve no idea. We just heard that it was a discovery that they were trying out for raid conditions in our own country.
CB: Yes.
DB: But instead of them just being left by the roadside these people who were injured he was in hospital and being supervised.
CB: Yeah.
DB: Looked at all the time. But it was a strange, well, it was a very strange experience. And my sister and I used to cycle from Lambeth Bridge to Ripley to go and visit him. And at one stage there were lads who had been injured as part of aircrew in the same hospital. I don’t know quite how that happened but they were put out in the open air in the summer weather. I think they had injuries where they felt fresh air was beneficial to them. But, but for my brother that was the end of his war.
CB: Yes. This is before McIndoe really got going.
DB: Yes. Yes. Well, that was later. That was penicillin, wasn’t it?
CB: Well —
DB: Yeah. Fleming and McIndoe.
CB: No. But this is to do with the burns really.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So, going back to your father with the boats.
DB: Yeah.
CB: You talked about the sorts of fires including oil.
DB: Yes.
CB: So, what was the real problem with boats? Was oil the real danger that caused a lot of concern. Burning on the surface of the water.
DB: I think. Well, I think it was because they, possibly it was more relaying of hoses. I mean there were obviously fire engines around because this was Shell Haven. Thames Haven and Shell Haven.
CB: Right.
DB: But certainly, I don’t know how near they got to those. But it might have been in a hose laying capacity. I really don’t know all that.
CB: Okay. So, you were born in 1921.
DB: Yes.
CB: At the end of the year. You decided, at what age did you leave school?
DB: I left school when I was just seventeen.
CB: Right.
DB: I’d gone in to the sixth form. I’d done one term in the sixth form but decided it was an unsettled world. We hadn’t, hadn’t started the war but, but I didn’t want to carry on with education. I wanted to go out to work but and so I took the Civil Service exam. But I also started at St George’s College, Red Lion Square to get more qualifications and hoped to get in to the executive grade of the Civil Service and perhaps from then to the administrative. But I would have settled for the executive I think then. But of course, the war started and they closed all of those institutions for a while. They opened them later but at that time I was looking ahead to marriage and family and didn’t really, and wouldn’t have continued with education.
CB: But you said you joined in January ’39.
DB: Yes.
CB: The Civil Service.
DB: Yes.
CB: What made you choose A) the Civil Service and, B) the Air Ministry particularly?
DB: Well, you know in those days it wasn’t the affluent society that it became later and you always felt that security was the big thing and the Civil Service had a very good reputation. You reckoned that the Civil Service had slightly higher wages than other types of work. That it was interesting work. Administration. All of those things appealed to me. My parents were not affluent. We had security and the Civil Service was another, it was a secure future. You felt you were paving the way to a secure future for yourself and I liked administration. I wanted to do that. I had to put down if I had a preference for any department what would it be and I put down the Civil Service. I put down one other, I can’t think what that one was now because I thought the Civil Service Air Ministry would be a particularly interesting job. The, the Air Force was only really just growing at that time. And, and that I felt would be good and that I might have time, might have the opportunity of going abroad with the, with the Air Ministry. What I didn’t know was that in those days they didn’t send young women abroad with the, with the Air Ministry. So I wouldn’t have had those opportunities. But the war started anyway and that, that put an end to that. But yes, I felt that would be an interesting life.
CB: And how did they train you to begin with?
DB: Oh, you were put in to a department and under your superior officer. He gave you a sort of training but you, you started work. I mean it was quite a modest job. It was a clerical officer and as I say I hoped to get to be an executive officer quite soon because you could take the exams quite quickly. The internal exams. But, but everything changed with the onset of war. But, but you were working straightaway on, on your own work. I think as I stayed with them for a year or two I think my particular responsibility was examining negotiations and agreements for providing water supplies and sewerage disposal facilities for Air Force stations all over the country. That could be big airfields, it could be small premises and so you were dealing with, corresponding with supply authorities for those facilities and also for councils if the councils were involved. Borough councils, county councils, whatever. So, you were dealing with those authorities all the time. So, I got to know a lot about the different airfields. All the names of them. And even to this day when I hear the name of an Air Force station that still exists I immediately think of the size of the file. It might be like that. Bovingdon. All sorts of them all over the country or down to small premises like that.
CB: And the airfields themselves were, they were building them brand new.
DB: Some of them. But some of them were old Air Force stations from before the war. Yes. But a lot of them were new. The thick ones tended to be the older ones. And certainly, all of East Anglia was like one big airfield.
CB: Where was this run from?
DB: Where was —
CB: Where was this office of yours?
DB: The first year of the war I was in Harrogate. We were evacuated to Harrogate. To the Ladies’ College. We worked in Ladies’ College at Harrogate. They evacuated the Ladies’ College pupils to a safer place in the country they thought but they gave it to us, the Air Ministry. And really Harrogate was filled with civil servants and Air Force personnel and we had a social life up there. I was billeted with a railway family up there. And when I, when the raids started and we weren’t getting any news of how our families were faring back in London and I put in for the transfer back home the man of the house where I was billeted, who was a senior engine driver on the LNER railway, he said, ‘Would you like a ride on the footplate?’ I said, ‘Yes please.’ So he gave me a ride on the footplate from Harrogate to Knaresborough, a little local village up there which was exciting for me. And then I came back to London but, and in Harrogate they were very kind, the people we were billeted with. And one day the air raid sirens went. Well, so that must have been just at the start of the raids, I think. Well, nobody ever expected Harrogate to suffer any air raids but the lady of the house, well it must have been a weekend because the lady of the house grabbed hold of the three of us girls, seventeen year olds, and said, ‘Come under the stairs. Come under the stairs.’ And she dragged us under the stairs because she said that was the strongest part of the house. A very modest little house. And dragged us under there and I think there were three bombs dropped from one aircraft in the grounds of a hotel I think up in Harrogate. And I think that was, they were the only bombs that I think Harrogate had during the war but it certainly created excitement at the time.
CB: So, you got back to London but how? How did you convince them to send you back to London?
DB: Well, I just said my family were here and where they lived right by Lambeth Bridge and the centre of all the bombing. That it took five days for us to get letters or to be able to make a phone call. We couldn’t make a phone call home and I said that, you know I wanted to be back with the family. Hopefully to work in the Air Ministry in London. Of course, there was some of the Air Ministry in London you see. It was that the I went to [pause] now was it Ajax House? Victory House? One of the big houses in the Kingsway I went to first of all and travelled to work daily. Bus or tram or whatever it was. They didn’t question it.
CB: You were billeted with your parents when you were in London then. You lived at home.
DB: Living at home. They didn’t call that billeted [laughs]. But yes, and that was when we had all of the bunk beds in the basement of the Headquarters and [pause] and didn’t know what we would find when we got up in the morning. Whether it would be rubble as I say. We often did walk over rubble in different parts of London. We got to work. I mean I think probably the hours were a bit intermittent. It depended how long it took us to get to, to work. I think there was still a tramway that went underground up to the Kingsway. Near Bush House.
CB: Yeah.
DB: And —
CB: It’s still used. The tunnel.
DB: It’s still used.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. The roadway.
DB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So you didn’t use the tube because of the —
DB: No.
CB: The roadway and the bus was more convenient.
DB: Well, there wasn’t, the nearest tube to us was Westminster tube station which would have meant walking over the bridge and to the station which was right by the Houses of Parliament.
CB: Yeah.
DB: Big Ben. And that would have taken longer I suppose. We could get buses outside the Headquarters. Buses ran from Albert Embankment there right through to, to the West End. To the City.
CB: There’s a classic picture of the Blitz with a bus in a big crater. Did you see that sort of damage?
DB: I don’t know that I saw that. I remember hearing about it. We had friends. Now, this man was in the police force and he was, you know he had a reasonably responsible job in the police force and I think he lived in Balham and he was out overnight with the raids happening and got back home in the morning off duty to find that his wife and three daughters had been killed. Their house had been bombed and I think that was when Balham had quite a lot of bombing. That part of London. And I think the tube station at Balham, I think a bomb went down the shaft to it. I have a feeling.
CB: A ventilation shaft. Yes.
DB: Was that right?
CB: Yes.
DB: Yeah. And [pause] Yes. There were some horrific incidents. That must have been awful for him.
CB: When you were in Harrogate you were doing your airfield work but what did you do when you returned to London?
DB: Well, I was trying to work out [pause] yes, because it must have been a different branch. It might, it might even be that that part came because I’d been in the Air Ministry for a year before I came back when the raids started. And it may even be that I started with something smaller in Harrogate and took on the airfield work when I came back. I’m not, really not too sure about that now. No. I can’t think.
CB: What sort of people were working with you?
DB: What —?
CB: Sort of people were working with you?
DB: Oh, well, they were mainly young women and middle-aged women and men. But we also had, I remember there was one young man who was about twenty eight and he was a conscientious objector. So he was given leave to not be part of the armed services but I think he had to do nine months in prison for that. But I know there was quite strong feeling because people used to feel is this fair because he is showing what he can do in the civilian job and therefore he will have an advantage when the men in the services come back home. There were all sorts of feelings about conscientious objection, that sort of thing during the war. If there were people in reserved occupations. They would call them reserved occupations. He was a nice enough chap and if he was, if he was sincere in what he believed you know you couldn’t blame him but but the people there who had loved ones fighting in the active services did feel strongly about it.
CB: So, did this effectively be expressed as abuse?
DB: Oh, they would talk. I don’t know how much they expressed it to him but certainly they would talk about it to one another and say how they felt about their own loved ones being away, in danger, losing perhaps seniority for when they came back and that would affect their promotion. Yes. There were prejudices.
CB: Did he describe any experiences of his own of people?
DB: I think he was a bit of a loner.
CB: Criticising him.
DB: He was a bit of a loner, I think. For those reasons really.
CB: And did he do extra tasks like fire watching?
DB: Did he or did I?
CB: Did he?
DB: Did he? Not that I’m aware of. I did. I did fire watching in Harrogate and I did first aid of course in London. I did fire watching on the roof of the Air Ministry. The Ladies’ College when we were in Harrogate. I thought that was the thing to do because my father and my brother were in the Fire Service. But when we came back to London I wanted to do first aid and I did British Red Cross and St John’s Ambulance courses in order to help me to do that.
CB: And then to what extent did you put that into action?
DB: Well, I, I didn’t have to do any serious dressing of wounds or anything. I think bandaging and as I say I saw this one really nasty incident. But they drew more than one first aid party to them in case people couldn’t get through obstruction in the roads. And we were the second party to get there on this occasion and there were people just ahead of me already dealing with the wounded but that was where I was standing behind ready to take over. For instance, if those people had fainted or anything in their, you know treatment of the injured. And that was where I did see the open head wound. Very dark wounds of this one particular lady and I did hear afterwards that she had died and I wasn’t surprised. She looked, she was unconscious but I didn’t actually have to deal with it myself.
CB: What sort of wound was it?
DB: Open. The whole of the head was open.
CB: Blown the back of the head had it? Yeah. And how did you feel about that?
DB: How did I feel about it? I just felt at the time I wasn’t capable of thinking. I was waiting to see if I was going to be needed. But afterwards even during those days I thought how awful that young women like me or anybody had got to see that because it, it was pretty awful.
CB: The secondary shock caught up with you. We’ll pause just for a mo.
[recording paused]
DB: I was thinking just now when you said, you know, you’re doing alright I thought if I had been the age or near the age that I am now when those, some of those things happened I would have probably taken more in. Be able to interpret them in a different way. It very much relates to the age that you are at the time and the experiences you’ve had previously. So that you don’t quite know what to expect I should think when you are, you are doing all these interviews. But, and, and I don’t know whether I am, whether I am interpreting everything correctly. I’m, I’m trying to be totally honest.
CB: Well, it’s the recall that is important.
DB: Yes.
Other: Yes. Yeah.
DB: Yes.
CB: We want to know.
DB: Yes.
CB: How you felt about it.
DB: Yes, well that —
CB: As you remember feeling about it.
DB: That’s what I’m trying —
CB: Yeah.
DB: To do as I go.
CB: In today’s perspective.
DB: And it’s a long time.
CB: Yes.
DB: It’s a long time ago.
Other: It is a long time.
DB: But —
Other: I think it’s fantastic that you remember.
DB: Well —
Other: Absolutely fantastic. I can’t always remember last week.
DB: Well, no but that’s true. They say that don’t they? The short term memory.
Other: Yeah. Goes.
DB: I find now that I can lose a name. The name of a person, name of a place.
Other: Yes.
DB: I can’t just grab hold of it straightaway.
Other: Would you like another cup of tea now?
DB: No.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve covered a lot of things but what I’d like to do is just to step back in a way because —
DB: Yes.
CB: I mentioned early on I’d like to know what your education was and how that worked and then how that impinged on your career so, what, what did you do when you got in to the more senior part of education?
DB: Well, I was never very senior because I went in as quite a lowly level of clerical officer intending to take the examinations.
CB: No, but at school.
DB: Yes. This was at school. But when I was at, it depends really where you want me to start.
CB: Okay.
DB: I went to a London Elementary School. From there I took the Junior County Examination. I passed at a high level but elected not to take up those top grammar Schools. Went to the normal London Grammar School. It was a grammar school in Clapham and and worked for matriculation examinations at sixteen, the equivalent of GCSEs now, I suppose and passed those. And went in to the sixth form intending to do what was called Higher Schools Examinations then but had decided whether it was anything to do with the world being very unsettled, it was the time of Munich and all of those things. I don’t really know. But I decided I didn’t want the lengthy education. That I would go out to work. Chose the Civil Service and, and would work my way up within the Civil Service. Now, when I was at school I was quite able at the academic studies and at sport so I could have gone either way at school. It was a good education. It was a good grammar school. Also, when I was at school I did have the opportunity of sitting for a scholarship. Just for a Saturday morning scholarship to Trinity College of Music and I passed that and I used to travel as a ten year old actually on the bus from Battersea Bridge to Hyde Park Corner, change the bus at Hyde Park Corner. Everybody worked Saturday mornings in those days so with all of the working population I would then get the bus and go up to Selfridges, walk down beside Selfridges to Trinity College of Music and did three years of music education there. It was mainly piano and theory. I didn’t do the singing there. I did that later on when I was older when I wanted to do singing tuition and did that and in my life have done quite a bit of singing. That was my interest. Coming back from Trinity College of Music, Saturday about 1 o’clock all of the crowds coming home from work in the morning it was a real scrum at Hyde Park Corner where I had to change buses. No queuing for buses in those days. That didn’t happen until the war. So, everybody was rushing for their bus at Hyde Park Corner. There was quite a lot of elbowing as I remember but, and do you know you’d hesitate these days to let your ten year old do that sort of journey in London on her own. There was one other little girl that, we were often together. But that’s the way it was. We did that journey on our own and got back for the rest of Saturday to my home by the bridge. My mother who had thought when my father got his own fire station command was going to have a nice country station like Streatham, she thought. That’s not so countrified now I believe, because we had Phillips Paper Mills one side of the road and Morgan Crucible Chemical Company the other side of the road. Down a side road. So we were really right in the heart of London and it was actually at, when I lived at Battersea Fire Station there that I met my husband in the church youth group. I was fourteen, he was fifteen and we weren’t boy and girlfriend then. In fact, I think we both had other eyes for other boys and girls but it was a good healthy start to to growing up and, and we kept in touch. We kept in touch when I was at Harrogate. He was at his OTC, Officer’s Training Corps at his school. He went to Sir Walter St John School in Battersea and and did his training for OTC and therefore he went into the Army when he finally left school and we got to the wartime years. And first of all they sent him to the Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry. Then they picked him up for, for Sandhurst and he did his training at Sandhurst. Wasn’t the lengthy training they do now at Sandhurst but that’s where he met and it was while he was there that he came home on leave, asked if he could stay with my parents. His mother had already moved to the West Country with her husband. And my parents didn’t know what to say. I didn’t know what to say. I wasn’t in love with him at the time [laughs] And, but anyway they said, ‘Oh, yes. We can’t refuse him.’ And so he came and stayed with us for his leave and that was where our life story began. Our love story began if you like. My father sent one of his men to Victoria Station with me to pick up my husband. We went back to the Fire Brigade Headquarters and he stayed there with us and, and that was it. That was the future assured.
CB: So, then he, in his Army experiences he then landed at D-Day.
DB: Yes.
CB: What happened there?
DB: He was, he was drafted to the Lincolnshire Regiment. Really, he chose that because he was at Sandhurst with a Lincolnshire boy, man and they talked about what they would put down as their first choice when they left Sandhurst and my husband didn’t know. My husband was born in Canada of an American father and, and met the mother in the First World War. That, and that was how Don came, they went back to Canada and Don was born in Canada. But this young man that he trained at Sandhurst with said, ‘Well, why, if you don’t know what to choose why don’t you put down for Lincoln’s Regiment? He said, ‘I’m going to put that down because it’s my home county and we could stay together, you know, the rest of the war.’ So, Don said, ‘Yes. Alright. I’ll do that. That’s as good as any regiment.’ So, he put down for the Lincolnshire Regiment and they were drafted to different battalions and never met again the rest of the war. He didn’t even know if he survived the war. But of course, my husband made many friends in the Lincolnshire Regiment during the war. And in fact we went to most of the Lincolnshire Regiment reunions after the war which was why when we were talking I said to you we went to most of the reunions every September after and through the war and went to a number of reunions in Normandy. When he was drafted to the battalion, second battalion the Lincolnshire Regiment he did normal infantry training with his company and then he said to me that they wanted to send him on this intelligence course at the School of Military Intelligence at Matlock, I think it was. And so he went to Matlock. I was on holiday with my parents and my sister in Devonshire in 1943 and we had become engaged by then, Don and I and expected to be engaged for possibly three or four years. Wait for the war to finish. We didn’t even have the Second Front established then but we waited. We would wait for the war to finish. He would get established in civilian life and so we would have to be engaged a long time. Well, he started at the School of Military Intelligence and I received this letter when we were on holiday in Woolacombe and the letter said, ‘If I pass this course I will get my third pip, be a captain. And I’d like us to be married before I go abroad.’ And I thought what on earth am I going to say to my parents? They think we’re going to be engaged for four years. So, I spoke to my mother first. I thought she would be the easier one and she said, ‘I don’t know what your father will say.’ [laughs] Spoke to my father and he said, ‘Ridiculous.’ But they all rallied around, you saw the picture of the wedding and gave me coupons for my trousseau. And we had a wedding and a wedding reception and photographs. Everything as I say except for wedding bells which we couldn’t have. Then of course, within nine months of that marriage he had landed in Norway, err in Normandy. I’ve got to gather my thoughts. And so, and many experiences stem from that. But we survived. We survived the war. We were the lucky ones.
CB: How did he get wounded?
DB: Sorry?
CB: How did he get wounded?
DB: They were about half a mile inland, if that. A quiet road. That was where they established their Brigade Headquarters. As I say he was brigade intelligence officer and he was, he’d had to go with the brigadier inland to the village of Herouville [?] This was where they landed. Herouville.[?] But the village itself was about a mile inland and they’d established that, the regiment had got that far and they established a Divisional Headquarters in a big office there next to the church and Don had gone with the brigadier to sort out the next move because I think German Panzer divisions were moving up to where they were and they were going to have to change all their moves. Make a different strategy. He came, he went up in the scout car, they came back in the scout car. Don stayed with his little band of brigade IO people telling them the next plans. What they’d got to do next. And it was while they were sitting there in a little dip in the roadway that this either mortar fire or artillery fire there’s some question now about which it was. They, we, we always understood it was mortar fire three hundred and fifty yards away but now there’s some suggestion that it may have been artillery fire. Whichever it was it landed in the midst of them, this little band of I think a dozen of them, this brigade IO headquarters and half a dozen of them were killed and half a dozen were wounded. The brigadier was one of those who was wounded too. And we kept in touch with him after the war. We saw them every time we went to Scotland. He was in the Scottish part of the Third Division. This was the Third Infantry Division and [pause] but of course it meant Don was put in the assembly area for bringing back to England. Did I tell you that story about the medical officer? The medical officer came round, dressed his wounds which were all leg including the femur, fractured femur and he put him back with others who were also wounded and said to the medical orderly, ‘I want you to take this officer down to the beach tonight for embarkation in the morning back to England.’ And the medical orderly got it wrong and took the man next to my husband down to the beach that night. The medical officer came back and said, ‘You’ve taken the wrong man down. Never mind. Leave it now but get him down first thing in the morning. I want him on that.’ On the, on the ships. So in the night, that night the German bombers came over, strafed the beach and all of those including the man next to Don, all of those who were down on the beach were killed. But Don wasn’t killed so, but taken down the next morning. So, the next morning the small ships came in and took these officers and people who, including German prisoners who were there on to the small ships and the small ships were going out in to the bay, the bigger part of the bay to the big ships to get them back to England. While they were on the small ships German bombers came over, Stuka bombers this was, came over and started dive bombing the small ships to stop them getting out to the big ships. The big ships who already had their, you know thingummies to get them on board that was already down but they had to put up these big gates. And in the meantime, the small ships which were being piloted by men of the, of the Third Division, and it was a little corporal and Don said he was absolutely wonderful because he would watch these Stuka, Stuka bombers coming and getting to the top and when they got to the top they started dive bombing. And as soon as the little corporal saw that he put the tiller hard over and the bomb would fall one side of them. They would come around again, go up again and as soon as they got to the top they would start dive bombing and the little corporal put the wheel hard over the other side. It fell the other side of the ship. He said, ‘If he did that once he did it twenty times and saved our lives.’ Including the lives of the German prisoners. But then they went away. The dive bombers went away and they were able to get the little ships out to the big ships and get them back to England. But, so he had about three escapes all together. Once with the Canadian officer. Once with the assembly area.
CB: How long was his convalescence?
DB: Well, he was in hospital six months but he was given, his leg, it was on traction and subject to dive bombing by wasps he always said. Wasps which kept coming round and dive bombing. Picking up the scent of all that was going on with his leg. But anyway, after two months and he was having physiotherapy and the doctors came up and said, ‘Sir, you are not exercising your leg enough. It’s not healing quickly enough.’ And my husband said, ‘I’m doing as far as I can. I cannot bend it further.’ ‘Well, you’ll have to try it.’ And my husband finally convinced them that he was doing as much as he could. So they decided to give him x-rays again. They took him out to x-ray him and found that the spike of his broken femur was sticking in a muscle. That’s why he couldn’t move it.
CB: Jeez.
DB: So, convinced they took him to the operating theatre again and cut off that spike and of course he had to start healing all over again and that took another three to four months. That’s why he was in hospital so long. But that was the only, well sort of, I suppose it was a sort of a convalescence. And I can’t remember when he was actually posted to Nottingham but from there he was posted to Nottingham and, and we were living there. That was when I left work and went up to join him. He, he rented a house that was opposite one that his uncle and aunt lived in. They happened to live in Nottingham and they said, ‘People opposite us are moving. They want to let their house. Why don’t you get Daphne up here?’ Which we did. So that was the end of my career and I was what? Twenty three then. Whatever it was. He was twenty four. And we were up there when the atom bombs were dropped and that brought a very quick end to the war of course. And then in that October he was posted to Cairo to do this advisory job really. And, and it was the, that next year that our son was born.
CB: How long were you in Cairo?
DB: He was in Cairo.
CB: Oh, he was.
DB: Yes. Not I. No.
CB: Right.
DB: There was no normality yet.
CB: No.
DB: That wasn’t really civilian life. He was there from October. I think it was eleven, thirteen months, I think. He went in the October and I think he came back the following month and I think he was demobbed the following November. So a year and a month.
CB: Okay.
DB: And then we were up in Blackpool. Or just north of Blackpool. He in the Civil Service. Me with our small son. He managed to get two rooms up there for us so we lived there. We were making all sorts of plans about the next summer going to the Isle of Man to see the TT races. He was very keen on the TT races on the Isle of Man so [laughs] But it didn’t happen because he took the next exam and passed that and was moved back to London. And then we stayed with my parents until we got a little house in Epsom ourselves and where we lived for seven years and then moved here and have been here ever since.
CB: That’s very good. How did you parents come to Epsom anyway?
DB: That was through this officer of, of the Lincolnshire Regiment whose parents lived in Epsom and managed the building firm. Managed. Owned the building firm that built many streets in Epsom. And that officer, John Roll was killed in Normandy in the July. He survived the first month or so but he died in the fighting in, I think it was Chateau Beauregard Wood. The woods around there. And Don wanted to see the parents to give his condolences. Talk about him. He always said John Roll was the best Christian young man he ever knew. A lovely young man, and he was engaged and he died. So Don went to see him. And I think my parents were probably looking at estate agents then to see if they could find a house that they could move to when my father did finally leave the Headquarters which he was due to leave then. And that was when Mr Roll said, ‘I have a house in Epsom that has been leased to the Epsom Fire Service and if they will let, let it, release it back to me your parents can have it to rent.’ And that’s exactly what happened. They did release it to him. Mr Roll let my parents have it, next to the park in Epsom. We lived with them until we got our own house. And that established the pattern for the future. I’m still here.
CB: Very good. Right. We’ll stop there. Thank you very much indeed.
[recording paused]
CB: Yes.
Other: You mentioned something —
CB: So, you, a couple of things to pick up on. Your first child was your son.
DB: Yes.
CB: His name is —
DB: Anthony.
CB: And then you had a daughter.
DB: Avril.
CB: Avril who’s ably —
DB: We stopped there.
CB: Avril is —
DB: We thought we’d have four.
CB: Right.
DB: And we decided to stop.
CB: Ably assisted today by David.
DB: Absolutely. He’s a treasure.
CB: Yes.
DB: He’s a treasure.
Other 2: Is it worth, I don’t know whether it’s worth mentioning or not but, but mum’s father you know I think because of what went on in the war actually got a sort of creeping paralysis disease didn’t he? I mean, I don’t know whether that’s worth mentioning or not.
CB: Right. So, what were, what —
DB: No. I don’t think so David.
CB: No.
DB: Because we did discover an earlier, his father seemed to have something like that.
Other 2: Oh, right. Right. Okay.
Other 3: It’s probably genetic.
DB: I guess it was something genetic.
Other 2: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So, so, in summary what you’re saying is that your husband was finding it more difficult to get around in later years.
DB: Not my husband. No. My father.
CB: Your father, I meant to say. I meant to say your father.
Other 2: Yes. Yes.
DB: My father did find it —
Other 2: Yes.
DB: Very difficult to get around.
CB: Yes. Yes.
Other 3: From his early fifties.
DB: He was very badly disabled.
Other 3: Not later. From his early fifties.
CB: Early 50s.
Other 3: From about 1963.
DB: Not the 50s. It would be ‘60 Avril. ‘60s.
CB: 60s.
DB: Yeah.
CB: And then a story about what your husband was doing in the —
DB: Well, it was —
CB: With the D-Day plans.
DB: They did a lot of training in Normandy. A lot of the invasion training. He always said he got his feet wetter off the coast of Northern Scotland than he did when he landed on D-Day.
CB: Right.
DB: Because he jumped on the back of a Sherman tank to land on the beaches at Normandy. But anyway, from Scotland getting ready for the trip across the Channel they moved down to the south of England. Hambledon. Near Hambledon Somewhere near. That part of, of the south coast and because he knew he was within reach of Epsom he thought it would be a good idea to take the, if he, if he got the weekend off duty to come up to see me. So, he borrowed a motorbike from the unit down there and rang me. Asked me if I could meet him at the Anchor Hotel. Anchor Hotel. Royal Anchor Hotel, something like that, at Liphook, Hampshire. I took the train down there, met him there and he booked a room for us. First time I’d ever slept between coloured sheets [laughs] and I promised myself when we got our own home after the war I would have coloured sheets. Silly things you do really. Anyway, we spent the weekend there and then of course he had to go back south. He told his, and I had to come back home, I was working still with the Air Ministry he told his fellow officers about this lovely weekend and he’d achieved it. Hadn’t told any of them before he came away and so a number of them tried to do the same the next weekend and the military police got to hear about it and came up and arrested them all and took them back before they’d had the weekend there [laughs] And it wasn’t Don. It wasn’t dad that had told them. That was just the way it was. I think, yes so I think there were too many of them. And within, I think it was within a couple of weeks of that time he had a motorbike again down there. This time officially. Legally. And he came up to London. He was being sent with revised plans of the Normandy invasion in an old laundry box and he’d got to get them across to Tilbury to see the generals there about the revised plans there. And so he brought these plans up in this old laundry box and we slept in my mother’s spare bedroom up there of course with this revised plans of the Normandy invasion under the bed. I mean, I wasn’t allowed to see them of course. I mean he was totally honourable in that way but I don’t know that anybody else knew that and I don’t know that you ought to put that in really [coughs] sorry.
CB: I don’t think it will be too sensitive.
DB: Sorry?
CB: I don’t think it will be too sensitive.
DB: You don’t think it would.
CB: No.
DB: No. Probably wouldn’t.
CB: No.
DB: Well, there we are. I’ll have to leave that to you.
CB: What was the most memorable thing about your experiences in the war?
DB: Oh, well, I I think I would have to say [pause] because they went over on the Tuesday for the landings and I didn’t hear another word until the Saturday. I didn’t know whether he was alive or dead. And on the Saturday, because it took a couple of days to get him back to England, on the Saturday I, I was at work. Again, we still worked on Saturday mornings. My sister phoned me from the Headquarters and said, ‘You’ve got a telegram, Daph.’ And straightaway she said, ‘But it’s alright.’ Because you see being a wife I had the first telegram. ‘But it’s alright,’ she said and she was choked and I was choked hearing this. She said, ‘I’ll read it to you.’ And of course, I’ve never forgotten he just said, ‘Wounded. Now in hospital. Writing. Love Don.’ But it wasn’t the official telegram. That came later. The War Office telegram. He had got the sister of the hospital, Botleys Park, he had got her to send that telegram to me as a personal telegram from him. And of course, my boss at the office packed me off home straight away. ‘Go on. You go home. You’re going home.’ And so I went home because I would obviously want to go down and visit him. I knew it was in Botleys Park. Must have. I don’t know how that news got through but anyway I went down to see him Saturday and Sunday and —
CB: Finally —
DB: That was the most memorable news because I knew he was alive.
CB: Yes.
DB: I knew I’d got a future. And he never saw active service again you see. He was —
CB: No.
DB: That was the end of his active war. Other than that as far as my own experiences perhaps in some ways seeing the horrors of the war and feeling that I would never want to do that again.
CB: During the Blitz.
DB: Yes. Yeah. And, and this lady whose head was open. And I think all of these things influence your thinking for after the war.
CB: Yes.
DB: How you feel about war itself. Now, I’ve got a young grandson who quite thinks about going in to one of the services and I think I don’t know whether I want him to. But —
CB: You mentioned the V weapons earlier. V —
DB: Yes.
CB: What was people’s reaction, first of all to the V-1s?
DB: Well, we were puzzled. We were totally puzzled. We didn’t know what it could be. What is this thing? It’s something different. Then of course very quickly they did get news out. We didn’t know. And the barrage balloons were up of course and we were hoping that they would catch these sort of aeroplanes in them and bring them down and there was more a widespread dispersal of where these things were falling. It’s where a lot of them fell around Epsom you see. It was horrible. And my own experience of being caught in that locked air raid shelter opposite St Thomas’ Hospital. I didn’t know, you never knew where they were going to fall. They were just making this noise and, until it stopped and then you didn’t know whether it was going to fall on you when it stopped. You didn’t know that it would go on a bit further over the river like it did with me. It went over the river. Or you didn’t know whether it would fall before then. There were so many question marks with all of this which left a great insecurity about life generally. You didn’t [pause] you didn’t know whether any moment might be your last moment. Your last conscious moment. Despite all that somehow you had an optimism that you would survive like I did when I saw the people lined up on the railway station saying good bye to their loved ones. I amongst them. Dispersed all along the railway station platforms. As the as the chaps went off to wherever they were stationed and you didn’t know whether that was the last time you would see them. So there was so, there was so much insecurity and yet you hoped. You carried on hoping. You believed. I believed we would come through. I believed we would win the war. Even in Harrogate where Harry Schofield the chap I was billeted with he got very depressed and I would go around singing, “It’s a Lovely Day Tomorrow.” [laughs] and I’d say ‘It’ll be alright. It’ll be alright. You’ll find out. It’ll be alright.’ But you got, you did get depressed at times when it went on, dragged on so much and you knew that the war could not finish until we had gone in to Europe. So we knew that was still ahead of us. Nothing could happen. We couldn’t plan the future until that happened and we’d retaken Europe.
CB: The V-1 you got some warning because the engine stopped. It wasn’t supposed to but that’s another matter.
DB: Yes.
CB: But the V-2 you couldn’t hear it arrive.
DB: No.
CB: Until after it had arrived.
DB: That’s right. Until the bang happened.
CB: What was the reaction to that?
DB: Well, that first one happened, as I say I was in High Holborn and it fell in Chancery Lane. And again, to begin with because it was the first you didn’t know what it was. This terrible explosion. You didn’t know whether it was an unexploded bomb suddenly going off. One that had been dropped a year before perhaps because this happened too. Bombs would suddenly explode. And so you waited for news and, and I think we again they got the news through quite quickly that it was another V weapon that the Germans had, had invented. And, and we didn’t know what, whether there would be many. Whether it was a one-off thing. We guessed there would be more. Of course, if they’d been successful in getting it that far then it must be possible for them to get more that far. They came from certain fields in, on the continent and we were told that the RAF were bombing those places and of course but they were well fortified. I think some were at, no. it was the submarines that were at la Rochelle. They were more Northern Europe —
CB: Yeah.
DB: These V weapons. You probably know but certainly we were doing our best to bomb where they were being made and, and fired from. A lot of time you spent waiting to know more. And then when you knew more waiting to hear the next development or to feel or to suffer the next development yourselves. Hoping that it wouldn’t be your loved ones. You knew it could happen where they lived or where they worked. There was, there was so much uncertainty all the time.
CB: The V-1 by nature of its arrival created more blast at surface level. The V-2 descending vertically had high penetration and had less blast. From a public point of view which one was more terrifying?
[pause]
DB: That’s difficult to answer because there seemed to be more of the V-1s. There probably were.
CB: There were.
DB: The V-2s I think were over more quickly. Therefore, they haven’t left as big an impression on me as the V-1s did. But on the other hand you shook probably with belated fear when the V-2s happened. But then you said to yourself it happened, it’s done. For that one it’s done. There may be more. But with the V-1s you went through a longer process of hearing it. Not knowing how near it was or where it would stop or where it would fall when it did stop. So, in that way I would think the V-1s were more frightening for me. It wouldn’t be the same perhaps for others.
CB: Okay. Good. I think we must stop there. Thank you very much indeed. Absolutely fascinating.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Daphne Baptiste
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABaptisteDMM170504
Format
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01:22:45 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Daphne joined the Air Ministry at 17. She initially joined the Civil Service as she believed it would be a safe job with high wages. Throughout the war, she was stationed at Ladies College in Harrogate and was in charge of supplying water to many RAF stations. Daphne recalls her experience of the war as a civilian, as her father was a firefighter in London, she recalls a large amount of the Blitz. She mentions working with a young man who was a conscientious objector and describes how he was viewed at the time. During the Blitz, she was both a fire watcher and a first-aider. She also gives information regarding her family's experience during the First World War, including Zeppelin bombing. She recounts her memories of seeing St. Paul’s cathedral is surrounded by fire, seeing firefighters running to put out fires and the anxiety of not knowing if she would wake up in the morning. She recounts one or two deaths and many injuries in the fire service, including her brother, another fire-fighter, who was injured one night, and left disabled. She ends the interview by remembering marrying her husband, a Canadian born army officer, just before the D-Day landings, in which he was injured. She went a long-time without any communication, wondering if he would return.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Harrogate
England--London
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1943
1944
1945
bombing
fear
firefighting
home front
love and romance
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/700/10101/PBeasleyDG1727.1.jpg
3e6476a4caca883b605d7c511cc297fb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/700/10101/ABeasleyDG180326.2.mp3
d30a8491f63c56f32a83d26c6d06fe2d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beasley, Doug
Douglas George Beasley
D G Beasley
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Doug Beasley (b.1925, 1876732 Royal Ar Force) and photographs of aircrew. He flew operations with 76 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Doug Beasley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Beasley, DG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. So, it’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Doug Beasley at his home on the 26th of, where are we? March 2018. So if I just put that there.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking over I’m just making sure it’s working.
DB: It’s working.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Right. Yeah.
DK: It is. Sometimes get caught out with the batteries going or something.
DB: They’re quite good those aren’t they?
DK: They are nice. A very handy little —
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Little bit of kit that. Right. So, if I can just ask you —
DB: Yeah.
DK: What were you doing immediately before the war?
DB: Well, I, I was still at school when war was declared but in, when I was [pause] yeah I left school and when I was sixteen I started work in, in a company called British Glues and Chemicals Limited.
DK: Oh right.
DB: And I was studying really accountancy. I also was in the Air Training Corps immediately I was sixteen. And that meant that as soon as I was eighteen I went to, to the Aircrew Reception.
DK: Right.
DB: Selection.
DK: Yeah.
DB: People.
DK: Was the Air Force your first choice then?
DB: Oh yes. Yeah. Well, I was in the Air Training Corps.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And the, three months later I was in the RAF. And the reason was, I was accepted as pilot, navigator, bomb aimer which everybody wanted to be and they said, ‘But it will be at least a year before you join up.’ And I said, ‘Well, all my friends have gone into the RAF as well.’ And the new position of flight engineer was just coming in.
DK: Right.
DB: And they talked, well I don’t say they talked me into it but you acted as second pilot anyway.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so —
DK: If I could just take you back a bit.
DB: Yeah.
DK: What was the first things you had to do when you joined the Air Force? Because presumably there was a bit of square bashing going on or something. Or —
DB: Well, yeah, the first thing was I joined up at of all places Lord’s Cricket Ground.
DK: Right.
DB: And thirty thousand of us turned up there. And as I’m a cricket fan I’m part of the history of Lord’s, you see.
DK: Oh excellent.
DB: So, and we —
DK: You, have you ever been out to bat there, Doug?
DB: Hmmn?
DK: You’ve not been up to bat. No. No.
DB: No. No. No. Nothing like that but —
DK: That’s what I always wanted to do.
DB: There’s a special plaque up in Lord’s Cricket Ground.
DK: Yes. I’ve seen that. Yeah.
DB: So we were there for three weeks and then funnily enough I was, I then went to the Initial Training Wing which was [pause] I found all these things.
DK: Ok.
DB: Which was at Torquay.
DK: So if just say this for the recording then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So you were at Number 3 Initial Training Wing.
DB: Yeah.
DK: C Flight of number 2 Squadron. And that was in October 1943.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So whereabouts are you then? Are you —
[pause]
DK: Ah.
DB: The names there as well.
DK: You haven’t changed much.
OJ: I couldn’t find him earlier [laughs]
DK: So they were all sort of the same age as you then were they?
DB: Well, no they weren’t.
DK: Oh right.
DB: I was explaining to my grand-daughter a lot of them were policemen.
DK: Oh.
DB: And they were not allowed to join until they were thirty years old.
DK: Right.
DB: So I found myself, all that back row were policemen basically.
DK: They do, and now you’ve said they do look a lot older don’t they?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And —
DK: So how old would you have been in October ’43?
DB: I was just, I was just eighteen then.
DK: Eighteen.
DB: Yeah. Eighteen and a quarter. Yeah.
DK: So presumably they couldn’t join earlier because they were in a Reserved Occupation.
DB: Yeah. They couldn’t join earlier.
DK: Yeah.
DB: No. I mean we were you know the younger ones. I don’t know how many were in the same category as me but I always seemed to be about the youngest at the moment, you know.
DK: Right.
DB: But I think it was because of this Air Training Corps I was in. As soon as I was eighteen I was interviewed and then three months later I was in the RAF. And that was when I joined up to Lord’s Cricket Ground you see.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So 3 ITW was based where?
DB: Torquay.
DK: Torquay. Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And we were there for about six weeks I think. Yeah.
DK: And what used to happen at Torquay then?
DB: Well, that was, that was when they really [laughs] they really, you got, you got a pretty awkward flight sergeant looking after you and they were basically getting us absolutely fit. There was a lot of running going on etcetera. But it was your initial training for the RAF.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. On that.
DK: Was it something you took to well at the time?
DB: Well, yes. Well, there’s a lot worse places than, to be than Torquay. So that was quite interesting. Yeah. And then after that I started my basic training which was at St Athans.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Which was one of the largest, well I think it was the largest place in the, outside Singapore. Something like that anyway. And I was there then for, oh that was quite intensive training. Yeah.
DK: And was that training to be a flight engineer?
DB: Oh yeah. Very definitely.
DK: So you didn’t, you said you tried to join as a pilot.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Bomb aimer. Navigator.
DB: Yeah.
DK: But was turned down for that then presumably.
DB: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t really turned down. I could have taken it if I was prepared to wait twelve months.
DK: Right.
DB: But as I mentioned most of my friends had joined the RAF.
DK: Right.
DB: And, well I didn’t want to miss it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I know that sounds a bit foolish but —
DK: So, what was the training like then at St Athans? What did you have to do?
DB: Well, it was, it was very comprehensive really because I wasn’t ever trained as an engineer. But of course the most important subject you had to be good at was mathematics because in the air you did everything.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And so there was a lot of basic training on engines and stuff like that but what, what was really always mentioned was it’s what we had to do in the air.
DK: Right.
DB: If things went wrong. And of course there was a lot of basic training because the pilot and myself were the liaison group with the engineers. Ground engineers. So it was pretty intensive. The training.
DK: So, at St Athan did they actually have aircraft that you worked on or was it all parts?
DB: Yeah. Well, there were aircraft there but part of the training was we went to Speke Airport.
DK: Right.
DB: Where at that time they were producing Halifax aircraft which I was on, and so we saw, saw them in production then and I think we spent about three or four days there.
DK: Right.
DB: Really learning all about the thing. And, and that was the first time I saw a lady pilot, you know taking off.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because it was an airport.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Well, it still is. Liverpool Airport now. So that was quite an interesting background. And then after that I went straight to the Heavy Conversion Unit. I mean, and that’s, that was immediately on to four engine aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the flight engineer, we were all flight engineers there in the Heavy Conversion Unit and I think I was there a good two or three months ahead of the crew.
DK: Right.
DB: Because the ordinary crew went to Operational Training Units, and what happened was then they came to the Heavy Conversion Unit and we flight engineers all lined up and, and the respective pilots came along and —
DK: Picked one of you.
DB: Picked. Well, it was quite interesting with mine because he was a Canadian and he was thirty one years old. And he just said, ‘What’s your name?’ So, I said, ‘Beasley.’ He said, ‘No. Christian name,’ you see.
DK: Right.
DB: So I said, ‘Doug.’ He said, ‘My name’s Doug.’
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we had something in common straight away. And so it was a funny form of selection.
DK: Yeah.
DB: What crew you were in.
DK: Do you think that, do you think that worked well then with the pilot just coming up and choosing his flight engineer?
DB: Well, it did as far as we were concerned. Yes. I know of no complaints at all. We all, we all got on very well. The two gunners were British. One was Welsh.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And one was English.
DK: Can you remember your pilot’s name? Doug?
DB: Yeah. Kerr. K E R R.
DK: Kerr.
DB: I’ve actually as a matter of interest I only found this the other day myself but it’s, I’ve got somewhere here photographs of them all. All —
OJ: I thought I’d be nosey.
[pause]
DK: Oh wow.
DB: That’s, that’s the same as that one.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: That was one of my pals. That was when I first joined up.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But that was the, that was the pilot. Kerr. Pilot Doug Kerr. This was July 1944.
DK: Just, just for the recording.
DB: Yeah.
DK: That’s Kerr. K E R R.
DB: K E R R. Yes.
DK: Dg Kerr.
DB: The navigator was Alec Marshall.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And then that was the bomb aimer. Jerry Lowe.
DK: Jerry Lowe. Yeah.
DB: The wireless operator was Mel Magee. And these, these were the two gunners.
DK: So the two gunners.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The mid-upper gunner was?
DB: Vic Hewitt.
DK: Vic Hewitt.
DB: Yeah. And Wally Hearn.
DK: Wally Hearn.
DB: Yeah.
DK: That was the rear gunner.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So I only found this the other day.
DK: Wow.
DB: So that was quite interesting.
DK: That’s superb that.
DB: I think, I think it just goes on to all sorts. Well, I think there’s another one here. This is with the crew.
DK: Right.
DB: That’s me there. And this was another part there. This is the —
DK: That’s the Halifax in the background there, isn’t it?
DB: That’s right.
DK: This was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: Yeah. That’s right.
DK: The Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: I’m just saying this loudly for the recording.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Oh wow.
DB: So, and then the, you were at Heavy Conversion Unit for, well I was the lucky one. I had already had experience of the Halifax and they hadn’t you see.
DK: No. So what had they trained on then before?
DB: Well, they were, on Operational Training Unit was on Wellington aircraft.
DK: Right.
DB: And so there was six of them in the Wellington. Training. And I just didn’t go into Wellingtons at all. I went straight on to the, where the flight engineer had to be you see. Yeah.
DK: So was it the Heavy Conversion unit then the first time you actually flew?
DB: Yeah. Yes. And I was flying with, with well the trainee flight engineer people.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. And it was quite a hectic course you know because you were then taught how you had to handle the four-engine aircraft. Eight petrol tanks and all the, everything the flight engineer should know basically. So it was, it was quite a course. And then I, the rest had done ordinary flying but they hadn’t flown in a Halifax before.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we had a trainee. An instructor for the pilot.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But nobody was with me. I was, I was on my own.
DK: You were on your own.
DB: Right from the word go.
DK: So how did you feel then when you had your first take off in a Halifax?
DB: Well, I had done.
DK: Yeah. Done it before. Yeah.
DB: I’d done plenty of flying before.
DK: Yeah.
DB: With, with the instructors.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so I did, you know but that time well I was I had to know it all, you know. And, and then the first time I flew with the crew I mean the, the rest of them they didn’t know what the flight engineer was for or anything particularly.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So that was when we started to form as a complete crew.
DK: Right.
OJ: And was that still when you were eighteen?
DB: Yes. I was. No. I was nineteen.
OJ: So you were nineteen then.
DK: Nineteen now.
DB: Nineteen.
OJ: Flying a plane at nineteen.
DB: No. I was nineteen by then. Yeah. Yeah.
OJ: Gosh.
DK: So your pilot then was quite, for most of the pilots quite a bit older then if he was in his thirties.
DB: Yeah. They called him pop.
DK: Yeah.
DB: He was naturally —
DK: The old man of thirty.
DB: Naturally grey haired.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he was, he was a wonderful character. Extremely good and we, you know while we were at Heavy Conversion Unit we learned our business really. What it all meant.
DK: So at Heavy Conversion Unit what were you doing? Were you going on cross country flights?
DB: Oh yes. We were doing day flights. Night flights.
DK: Yeah.
DB: The lot. And even one, one was dropping leaflets over enemy territory. Not, not anything too serious but in the end it counted as our first op.
DK: Right. Right. So your first operation was from the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And then of course what happened after we finished at Heavy Conversion Unit which I think it was August ’44 we then went to [pause] well, Holme on Spalding Moor.
DK: Right.
DB: Which was the 76 Squadron base. Previously 76 Squadron were in [pause] I said the name of the [pause] but it’s a famous —
DK: Linton on Ouse.
DB: Linton on Ouse.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the famous one there was Leonard Cheshire you see.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So we were we were quite a famous Squadron because of him.
DK: You didn’t meet Cheshire there then?
DB: No. But at Holme on Spalding Moor, in the Memorial Gardens there is a special thing for him.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. That’s at Holme on Spalding Moor.
DK: Right.
DB: No. We never met him because by that time when I was flying he was, he was in the Pathfinder.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Pathfinder Force. And, and of course as you know he was in the crew that dropped the atom bomb.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And I think that was what made him do the work he did afterwards. So we then went to the Squadron and in pretty rapid time we, we did our first operation.
DK: Right.
DB: Which I think I —
OJ: One of these.
DK: The logbook.
DB: The logbook.
OJ: That.
DB: That’s the one. I think it was [pause] it was August I think if my memory is right.
[pause]
DB: 17th of August.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And these, these were the sort of —
DK: Right.
DB: Before. And that was our first operation on the 27th —
DK: So is that first op?
DB: So we were there say from the 7th, after about a week.
DK: Is this a week?
DB: No. I’ve, this is when I was just flying as the engineer.
DK: Right.
DB: No crew.
DK: So just for the recording then —
DB: Yeah.
DK: When you were at the Heavy Conversion Unit you were flying Halifax 2s and 5s.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And they were with the Merlin engines.
DB: Yeah. They were.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And then we went to the radial engines. So this is when I, my own crew, there’s the Marston Moor.
DK: So just for the recording again.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: It’s 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at Marston Moor.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And, you know this is where I was learning my stuff. Second engineer.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Every time. And I flew with those people there. And then this was when I started doing the real, real —
DK: With your crew.
DB: Real. Yeah.
DK: So that’s between the 4th of July ’44.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And the 7th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh, no. Carry on. It’s the 12th. It’s the 12th, the 12th of August.
DB: Right through to that, yeah. We did about sixty one hours one way and another.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: In the Heavy Conversion Unit and they counted that one as an op you see.
DK: So your first operation then was the French coast.
DB: Yeah. 12th of August. Yeah.
DK: A bullseye.
DB: We were dropping leaflets and stuff like that.
DK: So that’s referred to as a bullseye.
DB: Yes. Yeah.
DK: This one.
DB: Yeah. It —
DK: Ok.
DB: And then this is when the real —
DK: Right.
DB: This is when we converted to the Halifax 3 so we had —
DK: With the radial engines.
DB: Yeah. You know, those first parts were basically learning.
DK: Yeah.
DB: With the radial engines.
DK: Did you find much of a difference between the Merlin-engined Halifax and the Bristol Hercules?
DB: No. Not really. The basics were the same as far as the flight engineer was concerned. I mean our main responsibility was looking after the fuel and keeping the balance of the aircraft right. So we were, we were, well I was always pleased. There was always plenty to do. You know.
DK: So that —
DB: Yeah.
DK: So the fuel systems were similar.
DB: In both.
DK: In both aircraft.
DB: Yes. Yeah. It was just the engines that were different.
DK: Yeah.
DB: There has always been an argument that the best aircraft of all was the Lancaster with radial engines. The Lancaster 2.
DK: 2, yeah.
DB: But well I noticed even last night they kept mentioning the Lancaster all the time and, but it’s the, it’s one of those funny things. It was the Spitfire all last night. No mention of the Hurricane, you know.
DK: The Hurricane. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: This always upsets us a little bit.
DK: Yeah. I’m not surprised.
DB: But that’s the way it goes and then —
DK: So you joined 76 Squadron on the 17th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And you’re flying your first operation on 25th of August ’44.
DB: Yeah. And that was —
DK: So that was an operation to Watten.
DB: Yeah. That was the, this was the V-1. The V-1 unit.
DK: I’ll spell that for the recording.
DB: That’s in Calais.
DK: That’s W A T T E N.
DB: Yeah. Watten. And, and that was, in fact you’ll notice it was in daylight, which was most unusual and they always say the first one is, is can be fatal. A lot of people went on their first op and this was quite hairy. We, in my diary we saw three aircraft shot down and we were hit by anti-aircraft fire and we lost an engine. So that was a good start, you know. And anyway we survived it and —
DK: So you came back on just three engines.
DB: Three engines. Yeah. And of course when we got back, when you land damaged it’s the pilot and myself with the ground crew and it was quite frightening, you know. What we saw there. But I’ve never forgotten what my pilot said. He said, ‘Well, one thing I’m pleased about is, we all did what we had to do.’ And I’ve never forgotten that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But that was really what crews were all about.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, so it was a good baptism in a way.
DK: Did you find that because of that danger you kind of bonded then as a crew? If you’re doing your, your part.
DB: Well, it did, it did a lot of good. Yes. I mean we all got to know each other reasonably well but not, not in, not in actual duties like that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So, yes it did do a lot of good because it paid off, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
OJ: And you were saying three planes got shot down. Were you the only ones that came back? Or how many others? How many others went out on that?
DB: Well, we didn’t lose any in our Squadron but there were three we saw shot down.
DK: From other Squadrons.
DB: We had to take evasive action when we lost an engine. Well, I mean it momentrally things aren’t right. You know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And you know I’m, I’m saying to the pilot, ‘Feather the engine,’ and he does what he has to do but of course we’re taking evasive action as well and we found ourselves going over Dunkirk and I think I’ve mentioned that in the diary and we saw another one shot down there and so we were lucky.
DK: Yeah.
DB: We survived it. The first one.
DK: And that was flak that damaged the engine.
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. I mean it was very, I mean they were heavily defended those V-1 sites and this was when it was really at its peak. The V-1s. And we did a lot of, a lot of French flying in those early stages. Yeah.
DK: So, obviously it’s just after D-Day, isn’t it, so?
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: So your, so your next operation then was two days later. The 27th of August.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And that was to —
DB: And that was a place called Homburg. Yeah.
DK: Homburg. Homburg.
DB: And again that was a daylight one as well. And then you’re, there are all sorts of things here. There was Le Havre, look. We went there.
DK: So, Le Havre on the 10th of September.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. I’ll just read these out for the recording.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So the 10th September Le Havre. 15th of September Kiel.
DB: Yeah. That was the first German one. Yeah.
DK: 20th of September Calais.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 23rd of September Neuss. Near Dusseldorf.
DB: Yeah. Near Dusseldorf. Yeah.
DK: Near Dusseldorf. That’s N E U S S.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Then where are we? 25th of September.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Calais.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then 26th of September Calais again.
DB: Yeah. So it was quite, quite a busy month one way and another. Yeah.
OJ: Can I just take a look at [unclear]
DB: Yeah. And then we go in to sort of October.
DK: Ok.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Can I read those out for the recording?
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So 7th of October was Kleve. 9th of October — Bochum. 14th of October — Duisburg. 15th October — Wilhelmshaven. 25th of October — Essen. 28th of October — Westkapelle.
DB: Yeah. Its Walcheren Island.
DK: Walcheren Island. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then 30th of October — Cologne.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then the 31st of October — Cologne again.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And those, those were all at night then were they?
DB: No. Where it’s in red they were at night.
DK: Oh right. Sorry. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So it was pretty hectic going. And then November.
DK: So, November then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 2nd of November — Dusseldorf.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Another back there. 6th of November — Gelsenkirchen. 16th of November — Munster.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 21st of November Sterkrade. S T.
DB: Sterkrade.
DK: Sterkrade.
DB: Yeah.
DK: S T E R K A E E and then 29th of November — Essen.
DB: Yeah.
DK: I’ll get back to those in a moment.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So what was, what was it like then? Operations actually over Germany?
DB: Well, all, they were always heavy flak. You were lucky if you didn’t get anti-aircraft fire and, of course it always looks a lot worse at night. Although having said that that first operation we did where we lost an engine it wasn’t much fun in daylight when when, when you’re under a lot of pressure. The main problem at night was, I mean I think there was one of those, I think it was one of the Cologne ones where we were the thousand aircraft and the mind boggles. A thousand aircraft over the target in twenty minutes.
DK: Yeah.
DB: You know, its —
DK: Could you, could you actually see much at night though from your aircraft?
DB: Well, at night time there were no lights on or anything like that. In daylight sometimes you were supposed to be flying at say twenty thousand feet and sometimes the aircraft couldn’t get up to that. Not necessarily your own. So you could have some below that if the aircraft wasn’t as good as, we were lucky. We had fairly new aircraft. These Halifax 3s. So sometimes we seemed to be above but it was not much fun if they opened the bomb doors.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And a lot of that happened of course and hit aircraft below them. So none of the German targets were, were easy, you, you, because the fighter force was pretty engaged at that stage, you know. So there was very seldom. It was either heavy anti-aircraft fire and of course where the fighters were concerned they tend to come up underneath you.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. They were, they were quite good.
DK: Can you recall actually seeing any German fighters?
DB: Oh yeah. We were hit by one. I’d have to look in my diary —
DK: Yeah.
DB: To see which one it was but we, we were attacked by a night, a Junkers 88. In fact, if you go in there.
OJ: Do you want me to have a look with me?
DB: What are we up to?
DK: Up to 29th of November.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. If you —
OJ: That’s December.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. I can’t remember. It’s in the diary.
OJ: November the 18th or was it November the —
DB: Well —
DK: Would it be in the logbook somewhere?
DB: Yeah. It’s in the, no it wouldn’t be in the logbook I don’t think.
DK: [unclear] ok.
OJ: That’s in to November.
DB: If you can —
DB: That’s November 6th
DK: Oh, here we go. It is in the logbook actually. 12th of January 1945. Attacked by Junkers 88.
DB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That’s when it gets [laughs] Yeah. Well, that’s good I put it in there. Hanover. Yeah. I thought. I said Cologne didn’t I? So that was pretty, pretty you know it was mainly German targets and it was about that time when we, you know a tour of operations was thirty.
DK: Right.
DB: But the weather was so bad and I really genuinely mean that. Terrible the weather was. And we took off sometimes when, when we shouldn’t have done one way and another. And, and we the weather, the weather was so, so bad that what they did instead of doing thirty they brought in a points system. So you had three points for French targets, four points for German targets and because of that instead of doing thirty we ended up doing thirty eight, you see. And this was all because of the bad weather. The replacement crews couldn’t come in. And if you look at the last eight that we did and you’ve got to remember psychologically we’d got away with it —
DK: Yeah.
DB: For the thirty. And this coincided with the Ardennes Offensive and we, that was, you know that was before we’d done thirty. When the Ardennes Offensive was on. We went to a place called St Vith, and it was, we were going to take off on the Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and finally took off on Boxing Day because of thick fog. And we took off in thick fog because we had to go to St Vith. It was so critical. This was when the Germans were —
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Getting the upper hand. And it was, it was very heavily defended but it was a daylight as well and we, I think well we saved the day for them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because it was the railway station we took and they were reinforcing.
DK: Right.
DB: Reinforcing the troops.
DK: And that was to support the American troops on the ground was it?
DB: Well, yes.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And it was very difficult. And when we got, when we were going back we still couldn’t land at Holme on Spalding Moor because the fog was still thick, and so we got diverted to East Fortune and I always remember it. We’d never been to East Fortune. This is in, in Scotland and I, I remember saying to the pilot, ‘There’s no going around again,’ because it was pretty hairy. We were on, we were, you’re not ever quite empty but it was quite serious. Anyway, he was a good pilot and we landed.
DK: So you were down to your last drop of petrol.
DB: Yeah. And in fact we had thirty gallons left. Which is nothing in a four engine aircraft.
DK: No.
DB: And then we went back and the weather was, was, that would be around Christmas time when we did the St Vith one.
DK: Yeah.
DB: When we had to go. Then we got onto the last date and again it was, it was, the weather was unbelievably bad. And this was when the Russians were asking Bomber Command to help them out and because, you know they were winning but they didn’t have the heavy bomber force and we were, we were attacking troop concentrations and everything else. And the trip we did was a place called [pause – pages turning] Let me just get the page. These were the last eight there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: We, we went to, to Böhlen which, we were the diversionary flight for Dresden.
DK: Right. Yes. Yeah.
DB: And it’s only recently I realised that. So look at that flying time. Eight hours twenty minutes you see.
DK: Eight hours twenty minutes in the air.
DB: Yeah. And so sometimes when you’re the diversionary raid that is to draw the fighters away. But it, I don’t think they were expecting it. The Germans. So in a funny sort of way we, we got away with it. Then if you notice the next night, again to help the Russians, eight hours.
DK: To Chemnitz.
DB: Eight hours five minutes again.
DK: Yeah.
DB: So those last ones, this is, I mean we were on borrowed time in my book. But you know you notice there that there’s the thirty eighth one. So the last two were daylight ones.
DK: Right.
DB: So it’s —
DK: So then just go through them. Böhlen was on the, where are we? That was on the 13th of February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then Chemnitz on the 14th of February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And then the last two. 23rd of February — Essen.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 24th February.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Near Dortmund. Kamen.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. That was our last one.
DK: Both daylight.
DB: Then. Yeah.
DK: So what was it like flying daylight at that stage?
DB: Well, the last two were daylight. I mean Essen is always a worry because it was very heavily defended etcetera and they weren’t, I mean the Germans were suffering a bit then with, there wasn’t much fighter opposition towards the end. But funnily enough saying that after I finished flying, I don’t know whether this has been mentioned before but I think it was in April our, our Squadron were badly affected. The Luftwaffe made their last, and they followed the bombing, bombing fleet back to bases and quite a few of my friends they were shot down over, over our own ‘drome. And I think in total we lost about twenty aircraft that night but that was the last fling of the Luftwaffe.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They never gave up.
DK: No. No.
DB: Unbelievable really. So that virtually covers the flying part. But the other thing which is relevant is after I finished flying I became an instructor at Operational Training Units.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And this is where it was Wellington aircraft and it was where my crew trained. All of them. And that, that was interesting. And I think it was in 1946 it was my first time I’d ever been to Southampton and I was nominated to be the air sea rescue officer.
DK: Right.
DB: And the course was at Calshot, near here. And it’s something I’ll never forget because it was about a month’s course and of course you realise what you didn’t know when you were flying. But on the, towards the end of the course we were all told we were going to have some very important visitors, and it was McIndoe’s.
DK: Right.
DB: The famous surgeon.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And what he’d arranged is we were all aircrew on this course, and this was part of his mental treatment and we were told, each one had a gorgeous nurse with him, and I think it was a coachload that came. And I’ll never forget it as long as I live. It’s very difficult talking to people who haven’t got a face basically. But they were talking as, as if they because that was his secret. He said, ‘You’re no different now than you were before.’
DK: Yeah.
DB: And mentally he’d got them and they were conversing and of course it was very clever, with other aircrew. You know. And it was very upsetting for all of us.
DK: Yeah.
DB: As you can imagine. But that was something which is very relevant to the flying.
DK: Did he —
DB: To experience that.
DK: Until that time then it hadn’t really crossed your mind about what could happen then and the dangers and the fires and whatever.
DB: Well —
OJ: Did you kind of not think about it?
DB: I think it’s it —
OJ: Yeah.
DB: I think its [pause] yeah.
DK: [unclear]
DB: Of course we’d lost, we’d lost crews.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And funnily enough it was only just recently — three aircraft were lost and in three cases they were sharing our billet. The crew.
DK: Right.
DB: And that’s pretty awful you know but you’ve got to remember they weren’t dead. They were missing.
DK: Right.
DB: I know now what’s happened to them but you didn’t know. So it is very difficult to [pause] I think it’s because you think it’s never going to happen to me, but it comes pretty near to it when you’re asked to leave the billet and then they collect all their belongings.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And the same night there’s a new crew in.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It’s very very difficult to comprehend that sort of thing.
DK: How did you get on with the new crew when they came in? Did you, was it more difficult to make friends with them then?
DB: Well, no. No. Well, you were just aircrew.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And, and I mean they were always in awe of us if, particularly when we’d done about twenty five. They always reckoned if you could get to twenty you stood a chance.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Did you find then, did you feel you were more confident then, the more operations you did?
DB: Well, now it’s very, yes you’re more confident as a crew. Yeah. Because you knew each other inside out.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Sort of thing. But I wouldn’t say you were any more confident because it might be your turn.
DK: Yeah.
DB: You know. And I always felt sorry for the ones who had done twenty plus and then went missing.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That sort of thing. And the worst ones for us were that last eight. And look, look where they were. You know. So that made it worse.
DK: Can I just take you back to, as I say this is the 5th of January 1945.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And this is Hanover and you’re attacked by a Junkers 88.
OJ: That’s Jan 14th.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So you’re in Halifax 3 NA218.
DB: Yeah. What date was that?
DK: It was the 5th of January. January 1945.
DB: 5th of January.
OJ: That’s Jan 14 —
DB: Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. Hanover. Yeah.
DK: Do you do you want to read it out?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yes, I will do.
DK: Yeah.
DB: “Tonight our target was Hanover. This was a trip on which we were over enemy territory for quite a long while. Everything was ok until we started our run up.” That’s to the target. “A Junkers 88 attacked us from a head on position and slightly below and raked us with machine gun and cannon fire. It was shaky for a minute or so and we were hit but nothing vital had been put out of action. On return we found damage to the wings, fuselage and starboard rudder. In places it was just like a pepper pot. When one shell went right through the starboard inner air intake but by some chance it never hit the propeller. We considered ourselves very lucky as nobody was hurt. The flak was moderate at the target and we dropped our eight and a half thousand pounds of bombs through cloud.” So it, but one remarkable thing was I sat behind the pilot and, and the bullets, we heard them, you know. They were that close. And the pilot was just a slight bullet —
DK: Grazed.
DB: Grazed.
DK: Grazed. Yeah.
DB: So that was how close it was.
DK: Yeah. And that was in his neck.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That was how close it was. But of course we didn’t know that ‘til, in fact he didn’t really know it until we got back that he was bleeding a bit, you know. But that was a bit shaky because again you had to take evasive action and if my memory is right we went down from about twenty something thousand feet to about ten thousand feet taking evasive action. And of course at the end of that you don’t know quite where, where you are and the navigator eventually gave a course and it, it turned out to be a reciprocal course which is easily, easy to do. But fortunately one of the gunners said, ‘I think we’re going the wrong way,’ [laughs] and [pause] it wasn’t a joke at the time.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But we, we successfully, that’s why you know, you rely a hundred percent on your crew and it was all put to right in no time at all. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And of course I come into my own when, something like, because sometimes what I think it was on that particular one we couldn’t make contact with the rear gunner and that was my job. I was the roaming one, you know.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: And had to go. But everything was alright you know. But so it was tricky. Yeah.
DK: So when you can’t hear anything from the rear gunner what do you have to do?
DB: Well, I just go down and I’ve still got, you know I’ve got all my equipment including the intercom and all that and when I, when I got down there I think in in the excitement he’d obviously taken evasive action and his thing had just come out.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. So it was nothing to worry about.
DK: Right.
DB: But it wasn’t easy. I had to go up and down the plane a few times because once we had [pause] well, it could have been quite serious. We, we, you know when the bombs have gone and on this particular one there was one sticking. And that’s again, I have to be the one who goes down to the bomb bays and in this case it wasn’t noticeable at all. And then, also to make certain that all the bombs have gone when you get over the Channel on the way back you open the bomb doors again and, everything all right. The next morning, ‘Will Flying Officer Kerr and Flight Sergeant Beasley report to the commanding officer’s, immediately.’ And we didn’t know what it was for. And this this was when this thousand pound bomb had, was somehow icebound or, or I don’t know what it was. And of course after we’d you know opened the bomb doors and everything else and of course what happens is when you landed at night they don’t open the bomb doors ‘til the morning.
DK: Right.
DB: And the ground crew immediately spotted this.
DK: So the thousand pound bomb was still in the bomb bay the next morning.
DB: Yeah. It was hanging loose.
DK: Loose.
DB: And of course, I mean we, you know you’re not quite on Christian name terms with the commanding officer but he’s a pilot like.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Like an aircrew like yourself and he said, ‘Well, I can’t say you’re inefficient,’ he said, ‘Because you’ve done —’ I think it was about twenty odd ops we’d done. And he said, ‘These things happen.’ But it was a bit disconcerting you know.
DK: So you wouldn’t have known. Well, you didn’t know you were landing with a bomb on board.
DB: Yeah. Well, we landed with a loose con. Yeah. Yeah. Or probably that loosened it but it certainly wasn’t visual to spot it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you visually see the bombs? Was there something you looked down.
DB: Well first of all the bomb bay was open and then you get a pretty good view. You knew where the bombs were.
DK: Right.
DB: Supposed to be. It wasn’t easy. It was quite easy to make a mistake and the saving grace was always opening your bomb doors over the ocean.
DK: So if there were any hung up they’d drop.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They, and we never, we’ll never know to this day what the real story was but we ended up with one loose one in the bomb bay.
DK: I bet that gave the ground crew a bit of a shock the next morning.
DB: Well, they were very nice about it because [laughs] because you know what anybody says the ground crews were unbelievable.
OJ: Did you have —
DB: There’s no other word for it.
OJ: Different ground crew or was it the same one each time?
DB: Oh, it was the same one all the time.
OJ: So you had a really good relationship with them.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And of course when you finished your tour of operations it’s a real, real good booze up. All. Everybody. Yeah.
DK: As, as the flight engineer then did you have to, did you want to know all about the mechanics of the aircraft? So did you talk closely —
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: To the ground crew about what they were doing?
DB: Oh yeah. I had a working knowledge of everything.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So as they were working on something you would know about it.
DB: Yeah. What happened was if there was something wrong with the aircraft it was the pilot, myself and one of the ground crew who, who went up. You know. You’d see in my logbook it’s quite often that we, when we were having the aircraft tested.
DK: Right.
DB: And no, they, I, I always felt well one of my friends from the Squadron now he was ground crew and they had one night when the, when their, when the plane didn’t come back and he was, he was making the comment, he said ‘We always wonder where it was something we hadn’t done,’ you know. That was the relationship between them.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And it must be very upsetting.
DK: That must be difficult for him. That —
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: He was thinking had you done something wrong.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your, the crew itself did you used to socialise with them at all? Did you?
DB: Oh yes. We went everywhere.
DK: What did you used to do off duty?
DB: There are photographs.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I think in there somewhere where, where we’re all out, I don’t know I think it’s in this one but —
OJ: On the razzle [laughs]
DK: On the razzle [laughs] in pubs and things.
DB: No. But we were, we were socially I don’t think it’s in yeah there’s, there’s where we were fumigating the billet at seventy —
DK: Right.
DB: So, that’s when we first arrived there. And they were nissen huts. I never lived in anything other than nissen huts.
DK: So, what, what were you actually fumigating for then? Because there would be —
DB: Well, because it was a nissen hut which, which was awful.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It looked awful. Yeah.
DK: Nasty bugs in there.
DB: And they were very cold.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Yeah, and so, you know all the crew were —
DK: So there was nasty bugs in there was there?
DB: That’s right. Yeah. You know. There’s where we were out on the river.
DK: Oh wow.
DB: Having a —
DK: So just for the recording its —
DB: Yeah. We all, we all —
DK: You’re off duty at Knaresborough.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: And that’s July 1944. So you’re in a boat there are you? A rowing boat.
DB: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are you there?
DB: I’d be there somewhere. Unless it was me took the photograph.
DK: The photo.
DB: Oh. There’s me there.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. But so we we were always together and —
DK: Can I?
DB: The other remarkable thing about it was we, we and you will probably find this goes on we had six, seven days leave every six weeks.
DK: Right.
DB: When we were flying. And the bomb aimer and the wireless operator they always came to our house. We lived in Welwyn Garden City then, and they always came to our house and my sister was only talking about it the other day. She was fourteen at the time I think, and she said the wireless operator as soon as he came in he’d put his photographs up on the mantlepiece. He said, ‘I’m in a home now,’ you know. And she remembered this, these things very vividly.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And my father always enjoyed them turning up because with them being Canadians they had all sorts of goodies. And it was funny. Our crew. It’s most remarkable. Three, three didn’t drink, and four didn’t smoke. Including myself. That was most unusual then, you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Most unusual. So my father did very well with cigarettes. Yeah.
DK: So where would you go on your off duty times then? Where did you used to go on your off duty times then?
DB: Well, mainly York.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Because York, when we had a stand down it was York where we mainly went to. Sometimes we went to Goole. And Market Weighton was another place near. And the village. The village was quite good at Holme on Spalding Moor. There was a very good pub there. In fact, when we have our reunions we still go there.
DK: You go there. To the same pub.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s still a good pub.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I could just go through the log book again.
DB: Yeah, by all means.
DK: Just to say. I think we got up to the 31st of October didn’t we?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Oh no we didn’t we got to November here. So just for the recording again then so just carrying on the 17th of December ’44, Duisburg. 26th of December it’s —
DB: That was, yeah that was the Ardennes Offensive one.
DK: The Ardennes Offensive.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, the 29th of December — Koblenz. 30th of December — Cologne. 1st of January 1945 — Dortmund. 5th of January — Hanover where we know you were attacked.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: By the Junkers 88. So the 14th of January Saarbrucken. I’ll just whizz through these if you don’t mind. 1st of Feb Mainz, 2nd of Feb Wanne-Eickle.
DB: Wanne-Eickle. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Bonn. That’s a well-known one.
DK: Yeah. 4th of Feb — Bonn. 7th of Feb — Goch. 13th of Feb —
DB: That’s a long one.
DK: Böhlen.
DB: Yeah.
DB: Böhlen near Leipzig.
DB: Yeah.
DK: In support of the Dresden raid.
DB: Yeah.
DK: 14th of Feb Chemnitz. 20th of Feb near Dusseldorf. 23rd Of Feb — Essen. 24th Of Feb Kamen, and that was the last.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The thirty eighth.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And so, and that’s total flying here. Total. So operational flying hours. That’s your total flying.
DB: Yeah.
DK: So, well that’s seventy nine hours five minutes daylight, and a hundred and twenty two forty night time. That’s a total two hundred and one hours forty five minutes.
DB: That’s pretty, pretty good.
DK: In thirty eight operations.
DB: Yeah. It was quite funny.
DK: Just put that down for the recording.
DB: I’ve never looked at the [pause ] my wife and myself we, we had, in the rubber business we were, and we were going of all place to a rubber conference in Essen.
DK: Right.
DB: And on the way there we, we stopped at a place called Munster. And I [pause] and the cathedral there was badly damaged and they had an arrangement with the Coventry one.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
DB: And I said to my wife that I was flying at that time, and do you know that was the first time I’d looked in my logbook. I fact, I had job to find it. Yeah. And I was on it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: The Munster raid there and it, it was, that was I had been to Germany on business but I’d not been to where I’d been.
DK: On [unclear] yeah. Yeah.
DB: Well, I went to Cologne.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because they were the main. They were the difficult ones.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Cologne. Essen. Well, they were all difficult but you remembered that you, if Essen came up on the board you weren’t very happy to go there because it was heavily defended you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So how did that make you feel then? You were going to Germany on business.
DB: Well, I —
DK: Is it something that was in the back of your mind at the time when you were there?
DB: No. I think the worst was over. You know. When I went, it could have been almost twelve months after the war ended when I I’m talking about.
DK: Yeah.
DB: In fact it could have been longer than that, and things were almost normal back in Germany by then. It was, it was probably later than what —
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It would have been. It would be in the 1980s. Well, that’s a long time.
DK: A long time afterwards. Yeah.
DB: After the war you see. So things were getting back to normal. But I, I was, you do get brainwashed you know. You hated the Germans and I very much disliked the Japanese because one of the neighbours where we lived in Welwyn Garden City he came back and well just looking at him was enough. Terrible. And but they were brainwashed as well, weren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
DB: So were the Nazis, so, and you can still see it really.
DB2: If I can just intervene a minute.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: We went to the church in in Munster. Or part of the Cathedral. And part of it had been bombed. Was it the entrance? Entrance lobby that had been bombed?
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DB2: And [pause]
DB: Yeah. That was Munster was it? Yeah. I’ve mentioned that.
DB2: Yes. Well, it’s on my mind. Munster.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DB2: A university town.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
DB2: For two reasons. But it’s a university town and the Cathedral had been bombed.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Part of it.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: And over the, you know a sign had been put up, “May we forgive each other as He forgives us all.” He.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: The capital H.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: Forgives us all.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Which I thought was rather beautiful.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
DB2: And the, the students, the university students were some of the most beautiful people I’ve ever seen. Men and women. They were supreme examples of the human race.
DB: Hitler Youth.
DB2: And yes.
DB: Yeah.
DB2: They were obviously the start.
DB: That’s right. I’d forgotten that. Yeah.
DB2: The start. The start of another of Hitler’s dreams you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB2: Yes.
DB: Well, at the end of the war when the war was ending we were warned that the, the main if if you crashed or whatever happened you, if you were picked up by the Luftwaffe you were alright. If you were picked up by the Gestapo you weren’t.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And if you were picked up by the Hitler Youth you weren’t.
DK: Yeah.
DB: They were absolutely brain washed, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And they were fighting right to the end. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: If I could just ask just very briefly what would a raid actually involve? When you got up in the morning what sort of procedures did you go through?
DB: Well, first of all you were warned that we were flying.
DK: Operations were on.
DB: That operation was on. And you didn’t know where you were going of course. And then you, in other words you had you had to be aware that that evening or whatever daylight whatever it was you were flying so you took the suitable precautions and then you were called for briefing.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And we had separate briefings. All, we went to the engineer’s department. The navigation department. We never knew where we were going but we all, and the gunners we were told what the bomb load was and everything else, but we never knew the target until we actually went into the actual briefing. And then sometimes it was, and none of them were good news but some were better than others [laughs] you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. So that was basically the procedure.
DK: Yeah. And then you went out to your aircraft at that point.
DB: Oh yes. You went out to your aircraft and of course it [pause] there was a very good article. A book just written. Been written for the, you know with this anniversary.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And he, in the book it says that in the aircraft the main people who were working all the time were the pilot, the flight engineer and the navigator.
DK: Is that the Patrick Bishop book?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And I’d never looked at it that way but I was glad because I thought well I was occupied most of the time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And I was. The only time I wasn’t occupied was when we were over the target and I was up in the astrodome. But you know all the petrol was right.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Alright, when we lost an engine that gets a bit difficult. But —
DK: Yeah. Was that, on the Halifax I’m not too sure. Whereabouts are you in relation to the pilot?
DB: Yeah. I’m sitting right behind him.
DK: Right behind him. Right.
DB: And the idea behind that and this was the, normally if I’d have been in a Lancaster all the time I’d be sitting next to the pilot you see. But it was very clever in the Lanc, in the Halifax. I was sitting immediately behind him. And the bomb aimer assisted him on take-off, you know. And then there was a clear entrance all the way down the aircraft so that if anything went wrong the crews could get out much easier than they could in the Lancaster, you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: It annoyed me a bit last night. I don’t whether you watched.
DK: I did. Yes.
DB: The programme.
DK: Yes.
DB: It annoys me every time. It was Lancaster.
DK: Yeah.
DB: No mention of the Halifax.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And then it went on to Spitfire. No nothing on the Hurricane. And then it went on to, no mention of a Wellington aircraft.
DK: No. No.
DB: Which was a very critical one.
DK: And then when you looking on later our next door neighbour here he flew —
DK: Do you want to just —
DB: And he flew, he flew Victors. Next door. No mention of the Victor. The Vulcan bomber.
DK: Really?
DB: Yeah.
DK: Is that a neighbour who flew Victors then?
DB: One of my neighbours. Yeah.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. My next door neighbour here.
DK: Oh right.
DB: This is, you know after.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he flew in just as awkward circumstances and it’s always the same. I mean, I’ve nothing against the Lancaster but funny enough it’s been proven that the Halifax was a much more versatile aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I mean it served on Coastal Command. It took paratroopers.
DK: Pulled gliders.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And it even dropped off spies in various places.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And, and, there was in fact there was an article the other day about the Halifax where one crew they, they were right out in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere and they attacked this U-boat and sunk it, but the U-boat also put the Halifax down and they were, six of them got out and it was somebody local here as it turned out.
DK: Oh right.
DB: They, six of them were in the dinghy for eight days and survived. And how they [pause] they were trying to get, get fish. And when I did this course you know on this air sea rescue the thing, the last, well one of the last days we were there we were in the Solent and they put us in a dinghy at 8 o’clock in the morning. This was in March. And left us. And we were there ‘til it went dark. So that was one day, and then the air sea rescue boat came out and picked us up. And that was enough for me.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: It was enough. I thought to myself how can, but of course you’ve no choice have you if your shot down. Yeah.
DK: I noticed that the TV programme last night didn’t even mention Coastal Command, did it?
DB: No. It didn’t.
DK: And the U-boats that were attacked and all the rest of it.
DB: That’s right. No. It was, it was a good programme but not —
DK: Yeah. The usual suspects.
DB: Yeah.
DK: The Spitfire, the Lancaster and the Vulcan.
DB: And of course the, the thing that annoys us most of all was, was, they had to mention Dresden. You know. That’s automatic. Particularly with the BBC, you know. And that’s unfair as well. And in fact one of the things I did for a friend of mine he, he, he was talking about Dresden and etcetera and the last magazine that came out from Bomber Command was the truth about Dresden. I don’t know whether you’ve read —
DK: Yeah.
DB: The last Bomber Command. And I’d written about the last eight for this friend of mine. And of course we were on that. On the raid indirectly. On the thing.
DK: Yeah. On a diversionary.
DB: And I think this article said they first of all claimed it was three hundred and fifty thousand were killed and in the end, I mean it’s it was a terrible number but it was twenty five thousand, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. But all these do-gooders they don’t understand do they?
DK: No.
DB: But what I like was the Dambusters pilot, err bomb aimer who’s the only one left now.
DK: Yeah.
DB: What’s his name?
DK: Johnny Johnson.
DB: Johnny Johnson. Yeah. His article. He was, he’s fed up with it. I don’t know whether he was on the raid.
DK: Yes. I’ve met him a few times.
DB: Yeah. Well, he always says, ‘Were you there?’
DK: Yeah.
DB: And of course they never were. ‘Did you know the circumstances at the time?’ ‘No.’ ‘Well, keep your bloody mouth shut.’ You know. And, and I thought well I couldn’t put it better myself.
DK: Sums it up doesn’t it?
DB: Yeah. It does. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. Well that’s great. Just one final question. I think you’ve really answered it there but all these years later how do you look back on your time in Bomber Command?
DB: Well, I’m glad I did what I did. You know. I don’t think I’d want to do anything else.
DK: No.
DB: At all. And I did what I wanted to do which was to serve in Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So I’ve no regrets at all about it.
DK: Did you stay in touch with your crew after the war?
DB: Well, we did up to a point. In fact, I found, found a letter from the navigator and the wireless operator but with I think the answer is that you want to forget the war when it ends. And the first time I ever thought about it was, it was in the 1980s I think it was, and we’d, we had a place in Spain. In fact, we’ve still got it but we, we were on our way back and we stopped at a hotel. We came in at Plymouth and we stopped in this hotel and there was a fella there who, he had the aircrew [pause] what did they call, they called it the Aircrew Association you see. And I said ‘What’s all that?’ And he, he said, ‘Well, the Aircrew Association’s just been formed.’ And this was in the 1980s you see.
DK: Right. Yeah.
DB: And that was the first time it had ever registered. And I said, ‘Well. I was in the aircrews,’ and I said, ‘How do I apply to get in to the Aircrew Association?’ You see. So he told me how to do it. And they kept saying he was too young that fella [laughs] A nice compliment. So, but anyway I wrote and thanked him so he knew it was genuine, you know.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Because they check you out at the Air Ministry. So and, and so I joined the Aircrew Association and then not long afterwards I got a phone call again saying, ‘We’re now forming the Squadron Association.’
DK: Right.
DB: And that was how the 76 Squadron Association, and this was in the 1980s. So it’s only resurfaced since that.
DK: After then.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Did you leave the RAF soon after the war then?
DB: Yeah. I left in 1947.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. And funnily enough I think I said in what we talked I ended up in Swinderby. That was the last station I was on. And in the Operational Training Unit there.
DK: Right.
DB: So can’t be much nearer to Lincoln can it?
DK: No.
DB: Than that. Yeah. So I know I know Lincoln quite quite well. So I I was thinking of staying in the RAF because I was invited, invited to because anyway the remarkable thing was I’d also heard that the Halifax had been converted. I forget what they called it. The Hastings or something like this, and it, it was commercial flying. And all they needed was a pilot and, and navigator and, and first engineer.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: Like a second pilot I would have been. So I applied for this job and he said, ‘You’ve got all the qualifications,’ he said, ‘But we can’t appoint you.’ So I said, ‘Why is that?’ He said, ‘You’re not old enough.’ And you had, you had to be twenty four then.
DK: So how old were you at the time?
DB: Twenty two.
DK: So you were twenty two. You’d flown thirty eight operations.
DB: Yeah.
DK: In Halifaxes.
DB: Yeah.
OJ: And how many hours?
DK: Yeah. Well just operational over two hundred and one hours.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And they wouldn’t let you fly the civilian version.
DB: Yeah. They were most embarrassed.
DK: Right.
DB: But that was the rule. The ruling at the time. And funny enough, well I ended up alright anyway but if if I’d have flown with them I’d have eventually ended up with BOAC.
DK: So you could have carried on.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Flying with the airlines.
DB: Funnily enough you know when the Squadron Associations were formed one of my best friends who was in the same flight as I was he knew my pilot extremely well and he went on that, and I told him. And he said, he said, ‘I only just made it, Doug,’ as well. You had to be twenty four. Yeah. Unbelievable.
DK: Absolutely.
DB: Yeah. And I’ve never forgotten that. So I could have carried on flying but I went to the accountancy work.
DK: I think it was the Halton. The civilian version.
DB: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: The civilian version of the Halifax.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. So it was quite interesting to be. So —
DK: Bonkers isn’t it?
DB: You talk more about it now than, I mean from 1940, well when I came out let’s say 1950 to 1980 you never really really talked about it. I was in the RAF Association but the only thing I remember there was they did the Dambuster film. 1953. And that was a story in itself really. One of my friends there, all you had to be was in 617 Squadron you see and he didn’t serve on the Dambusters raid but he was in 617 Squadron, and we had another fella who was a member and he said he was on 617 Squadron, you see. So again you had to do it through the Air Ministry and all this.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: And this fella who was the chairman at the time he said, ‘We’ve got a problem, Doug,’ he said, ‘This other fella. He’s never even been in the RAF.
DK: Oh.
DB: So,’ he said, ‘You’ll have to help me out when he comes in.’ So he duly turned up, and this Harry, Harry Nutall his name was, he said, ‘Have you had your invitation yet to the premier of the Dambusters film?’ ‘No. No,’ he said, ‘I can’t understand it.’ So he said, ‘Well, let me tell you something,’ he said, ‘You’re not going to get an invitation. You’ve never been in the RAF.’ And we never saw him again. And it just shows that some —
DK: Yes.
DB: I think they kid themselves to believe it.
DK: Yeah. Walter Mitties. Walter Mitties they’re called.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And I’ve never forgotten that.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And that was the only time really it came to life. Because after that again it all went back.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But now it’s, I mean you know the Bomber Command Memorial in London.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Is quite something isn’t it?
DK: Have you, did you get to the unveiling of that?
DB: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Well, all the family came to that.
DK: Yeah. I was at that.
DB: That was a memorable moment that. Yeah.
DB2: You couldn’t get him away.
DB: That was quite something wasn’t it?
DB2: Yes.
DB: Yes.
DK: So what are your feelings on the new Memorial then?
DB: Well, I think it’s going to be good. I’m looking forward to seeing it but I’ve made up my mind as well that, you know at one time we, we weren’t going to go to the official one and now I’ve got the feeling well I should go you know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
DB: Sort of thing. But I want to go again because this time it’s more important because that Memorial must, must be quite something. To see all those names on.
DK: It is. Yeah.
DB: Yeah. It’s very emotional I should think. Yeah. And funnily enough one of my, one of my, well best pal, in fact I’ve got his, you know looking through this stuff. He flew when it was much more dangerous than I was. He was on the Nuremburg raid.
DK: Right.
DB: And he survived. He survived that and he went to Ceylon afterwards. It just says, “Ceylon Air Force,” and I’ve just found a letter from him where it was dated September the something 1945, and then there’s a note on there. Went missing in October that year. And I am concerned that his name goes on this board.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. Because I’ve got his name, rank and number. He was a warrant officer like I was you know.
DK: So that was, what year was that then?
DB: ’45 when he went missing.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. But he’d served a full tour. Yeah.
DK: But the war had ended though presumably.
DB: Well, yes it had because he was obviously sent to the Far East.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: To carry on there. So he’d started there but he just went I don’t know where.
DK: Yeah.
DB: I never got the detail.
DK: I know this is a bit of an issue at the moment.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Because those on the Memorial are those that served with Bomber Command within the UK.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Those that went to the Far East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: And even the Middle East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aren’t included. If that’s where they were.
DB: Yeah. I read that article about that.
DK: Even though they might have served in the UK. I know we’re trying to get around that.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Not get around it. That’s the wrong phrase. But to include them.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They want to include those that were in both the Middle East flying bombers. And Italy. And then the Far East.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So at some point, all being well he should appear on there.
DB: Yeah.
DK: But not, unfortunately not at the moment.
DB: No.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. because he was serving in the Far East you see.
DK: Can you —
DB: Because we were, we were —
DK: Can you remember his name?
DB: Yeah. I’ve got his, I’ve got his —
OJ: Is it in the office?
DB: Can you just.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Look on the desk in there Tavie. You’ll see a letter in there from him.
DK: Cool.
DB: And his name rank and number is all on there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: He was a warrant officer like I was. He finished his tour of operations. He did the Nuremberg raid so he, he was always about six months to a year ahead of me.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. And he —
DK: They went —
DB: There’s a letter from him which is dated September ’45 and then I heard in October.
DK: Right.
DB: He went.
OJ: He knows exactly what he’s talking about.
DB: His number is on, on here. Everything. Yeah. That’s, I think that’s my, that’s his writing.
DK: Right.
DB: And I think that’s my sister’s writing, but I’ll have to find out. But I think here is his, yeah his full rank and number are on there you see.
DK: Oh right. So —
DB: Yeah.
DK: That’s warrant officer JE Topple.
DB: Topple yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember what JE stood for?
DB: John. John Topple.
DK: So, he’s, for the recorder he is Warrant Officer John E Topple.
DB: Yeah.
DK: T O P P L E.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Service number 1874884. And he was with 99 Squadron in Ceylon.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
DB: But he’d done a full tour of operations before.
DK: Right.
DB: Yeah. In the UK.
DK: He went missing out there.
DB: Yeah. But you know he was on when it was at its worst.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
DB: So I feel I his mother and my sister were only talking about it the other day. She always thought he’d knock on the door some time, you know. Yeah. But so I don’t know the circumstances but —
DK: No. But he went missing in September 45. Or October.
DB: Yeah. Went missing October the 7th 1945. So —
DK: Right.
DB: I don’t know what he was doing out there particularly.
DK: 99 Squadron then were flying the Liberators out there.
DB: Oh, were they?
DK: So he was on the four engine bombers.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So they stayed in the Far East for quite some time after the war.
DB: Did they? Yeah. Yeah. He was still active service. Well, I was still really until 1947 really. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: That’s even more of an issue actually because it’s actually someone on bombers in the Far East.
DB: Yeah.
DK: After the war has ended.
DB: Yeah. But —
DK: Officially. Though still on active service. Yeah.
DB: Yeah, but he served in. I forget what squadron he was on in the UK.
DK: Right.
DB: But he did a full tour. He did his thirty ops anyway. Yeah.
DK: Well, it’s something, certainly something we need to look into.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. But I feel it’s my duty to, you know. You know.
DK: I know this is you know the Memorial round there and the names on there it is expanding.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Because a lot of the records only showed those who died on operations.
DB: Yeah.
DK: While the aircraft was in flight.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Some of those who died when came back.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Aren’t included.
DB: No. I know that.
DK: So, that’s why some records say fifty five thousand.
DB: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: But our records are showing fifty six thousand.
DB: Yeah.
DK: It’s increasing.
DB: Yeah. I think in our book which is, you know there’s a 76 Squadron book. We’ve got, we’ve got everything in there.
DK: Yeah.
DB: And I know we were about seven hundred. Over seven hundred casualties.
DK: And that’s one Squadron.
DB: One Squadron.
OJ: That’s scary.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Ok. We’ll press on.
DB: Quite a lot of detail as well.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it’s been good for me to go through everything.
DK: Excellent. It’s been great for me. I’m rather conscious of how long we’ve been but thanks very much for that.
DB: Yeah.
DK: Just for the recording can I just have your name.
OJ: Yeah. I’m Octavia Jackman.
DK: And your grandmother’s name?
OJ: Doreen Beasley.
DK: That’s excellent.
DB: Oh you’re still there.
OJ: I’m still there.
DK: Ok. Well, thanks very much for that. I’ll switch the recording off now.
DB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DK: So that’s completion of a tour of 76 Squadron. February 1945.
DB: Yeah. Well, that [pause]
DK: So who’s, do you remember who that is there?
DB: Yeah. That’s the, that’s the navigator.
DK: Yeah.
DB: That’s the wireless operator. Pilot. Rear gunner and myself. I don’t know where the other two are on it.
DK: Yeah.
DB: Yeah. But I don’t know where that photograph is now.
DK: Right.
DM: With the —
DK: With the ground crew.
DB: Wait a minute.
OJ: Which one?
DB: I had it’s it’s I did I did find it. Is this some old photographs?
OJ: That’s your whole envelope of photographs. And you’ve got —
DB: Yeah. I think. I think [pause] No. That, that’s 76 Squadron, you know dinners, and all that sort of thing. But there is one somewhere of, of all the ground crew as well.
DK: Yes. It’s unfortunate it’s not in the album isn’t it?
DB: Oh, wait a minute. I’ll tell you where it is. It’s in my other room.
OJ: Do you want me to go up?
DB: It’s in there isn’t it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Doug Beasley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABeasleyDG180326
Format
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01:21:34 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
At the start of the war, Doug Beasley left school at 16 to start work. Initially a member of the Air Training Corps, he was sent for aircrew selection when he became 18. There was a 12-month wait to enlist as a pilot, so he opted to become a flight engineer. He joined Number 3 Initial Training Wing in Torquay, after spending three weeks at Lord’s Cricket Ground, in October 1943. Many of his fellow intake were ex-police officers, older as they were not released from the police until they were 30 years old. After six weeks he was posted to RAF St Athan for basic training as a flight engineer on Halifaxes, then to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Marston Moor. It was here that he was formed in to a flight crew when they transferred from their Operational Training Unit. At this stage they were flying the Halifax II and V. It was with this unit that he flew his first operation, a leaflet dropping operation over France on 12th August 1944. He joined 76 Squadron at RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor flying the Halifax III. He describes in detail many of his operations, mainly over Germany. One in particular occurred in January 1945 when his aircraft was attacked by a Ju 88 night fighter. Though struck by many bullets and cannon shells nothing vital was damaged though the pilot’s neck was grazed by a bullet. After completing his tour of operations, 38 rather than the normal 30, he became an instructor with an operational flying unit flying Wellingtons. In 1946 he became the Air Sea Rescue officer attending a course at RAF Calshot. He left the RAF in 1947 to return to civilian life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Torquay
England--Devon
England--London
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Yorkshire
France
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Essen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10
1944-08-12
1945-01
1946
1947
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
1652 HCU
76 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Lancaster
McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Marston Moor
RAF St Athan
RAF Torquay
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/986/10536/MWhybrowFHT170690-160926-22.2.jpg
896ee0917d52d0e6981f765e830adff6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whybrow, Frederick
F H T Whybrow
Description
An account of the resource
49 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Fred Whybrow DFC (1921 - 2005, 1321870, 170690 Royal Air Force) and consists of service documents, photographs and correspondence. After training in the United States, he completed two tours of operations as a navigator with 156 Squadron Pathfinders. After the war he served in Japan and Southeast Asia. He was demobbed in 1947.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Anne Roberts and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Whybrow, FHT
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Very Draft texts for Eulogy and Obits
Short Obit
The death is announced of Frederick Thomas Whybrow DFC (Fred) of Pwllmeyric, Monmouthshire after a short illness.
Varied and Distinguished War Record
Auxillary [sic] Fire Service 1940/41 during Blitz fighting fires around his family home in Greenwich.
Called up 1941, selected for Aircrew Training (he’d rather have joined the Navy)
Training in US in 1942. Passed as pilot but qualified as Observer (2nd Pilot and Navigator) as the training programmes had produced excess pilots but too few navigators. Troopship breakdown on return
Operational Flying in Europe 1943-44 all in Pathfinder Force (PFF) 8 Group Bomber Command
- Two full Tours of Operations with the same crew comprising 105 combat sorties
- 156 Squadron
- Formed 582 Squadron
Participated throughout the Battle of Berlin (156 Sqdn suffered highest lost rate in PFF or Bomber Command – check)
Attacks against French transport infrastructure pre and post Normandy Invasion Direct operational support of allied ground forces leading to breakout from beachhead. Operations against V1 sites.
Damaged by British AA fire on way to raid. Claimed one German Nightfighter Hit by bombs from other aircraft over Berlin or Leipzig, (I reckon Leipzig if so, his cousin killed on the same raid). Aircraft extensively damaged, nose destroyed and cockpit glazing shattered, all charts and instruments lost. Journey back to UK made with crew members in turn laying in front of pilot to shield him from the 180 mph wind. All crew hospitalised with frostbite. Crew already had DFCs and award of another medal to this all NCO crew was not made a point made later in book ………………………
Following completion of second tour appointed as aircrew trainer. Met Isobel in Blackpool whilst in transit. Subsequently selected for RAF Tiger Force intended to bomb Japan in 1945/46. Celebrated VE and VJ Days on Troopships, the former in the Indian Ocean the latter as a member of UK Occupation Forces in Japan 1945-46. Landed at Hiroshima early in September 1945 immediately following surrender. Put in charge of re-conversion of an aircraft engine plant to rayon production. Left Japan once production restarted and began a sequence of postings around British possessions and SE Asia where he accumulated a number of valuable items unobtainable in the UK. Finally demobbed in 1947.
Long career in local government in Kensington where he became well known
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fred Whybrow draft Obituary
Description
An account of the resource
The Obituary describes his service and civilian career from training in the United States to his 105 operations. Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. He met his future wife, Isobel in Blackpool. Served in the Far East and demobbed in 1947.
Format
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One typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MWhybrowFHT170690-160926-22
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Japan
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
Japan--Hiroshima-shi
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
David Bloomfield
156 Squadron
582 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Distinguished Flying Cross
firefighting
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
observer
Pathfinders
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/10573/BWhittleGGWhittleGGv1.2.pdf
4366a07d114b2ea1d93d31fa5bb69f5a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey
G G Whittle
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
2016-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whittle, G
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Gordon Whittle DFM (1923 – 2016, 1397166 Royal Air Force), as well as his log books, photographs and memoirs.
Geoffrey Whittle flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
There is a sub-collection of 25 Air Charts, mostly of Great Britain.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Field and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sqn. Ldr. Geoffrey Whittle, DFM RAF (Ret’d)
On reaching the age of 18 in September 1941I volunteered for aircrew duties and was accepted for training as an Observer. Called up in March 1942 I undertook all of my training, which was brief to say the least, in the United Kingdom. Flying training was undertaken in Scotland during the months of November 1942/February1943, not in the best weather conditions but a very good introduction to things to come.
Passing out at a wings parade on 1st March 1943 I left that evening for 27 OTU Litchfield which started the following day. There I crewed up with my Pilot and W/AG and converted to the Wellington aircraft. That was followed by conversion to the Lancaster at Lindholm in Yorkshire. It was at Lindholm that the full crew complement was made up.
At the end of training in June we were posted to 101 Squadron based at Ludford Magna, a wartime airfield near Louth. At that time I had completed 200 flying hours one third of which was at night. Our first first operation,two nights after joining the Squadron, was a mine laying sortie to La Rochelle and our first raid on Germany was to Cologne.
As part of Bomber Command we took part in operations against Berlin, Nuremberg, Turin and Peenemunde, the German Flying Bomb Research Establishment which put back the German Flying Bomb attacks on the UK by several months.
On our 15th operation against Hannover, near to the target the aircraft was caught by searchlights attacked by a night fighter and ground AA fire all within seconds which resulted in severe damage that included an engine fire and also one within the fuselage. We managed to evade our attackers attack the target and get home. As a result all the crew were decorated with immediate awards of 2 Conspicuous Gallantry Medals, 1 DFC and 4 DFMs.
Unfortunately, on our 16th operation I suffered a perforated eardrum and was hospitalised. On their 19th trip flying with a replacement navigator the crew was shot down and 5 of the crew were killed, The Pilot and WAG survived and became POWs.
Whilst in hospital my Commission was Gazetted back dated 27th September.
After six months ground duty I returned to flying with a height restriction of 8000 feet to became part of the Air Sea Rescue Service before being earmarked for the Tiger Force scheduled to go to the Far East (which never materialised due to the war ending). In the years after the war (with a full flying category restored) I served in Aden, Egypt and Germany in a variety of roles.
I attended the RAF Staff College at Bracknell in 1959 and was then posted to Fighter Command HQ at Bentley Priory from where I took early retirement in the rank of Squadron Leader in December 1961
I initially went into banking but decided the life was not to my liking so joined NAAFI as a Trainee District Manager. During my 26 years with the Corporation I spent 18 years overseas serving in Cyprus, Libya, Singapore, Berlin and Gan and visiting several other countries like Nepal, India and Bangladesh. My final appointment was as a Departmental Manager at NAAFI Headquarters in London from where I retired in1988.
Settled in Hampshire I became a District Councillor in 1989 for East Hampshire, and after moving to Lincolnshire in January 2007, I became a District Councillor for North Kesteven Distrct Council.
Now living at Ruskington where both my son and daughter also reside I have been very lucky to have had a varied and interesting career, seen many parts of the world and now live in a lovely village with my family nearby.
Reflecting on my time in Bomber Command I had the upmost admiration for those older aircrew who had families (my pilot was 33 years old with a family). I was young ---and if not flying just enjoyed life.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sqn. Ldr Geoffrey Whittle, DFM RAF (Ret'd)
Description
An account of the resource
A brief memoir of Geoffrey Whittle's wartime service. His training started in March 1942 in Scotland. One year later he converted to Wellingtons, then Lancasters at RAF Lindholme. He was then posted to RAF Ludford Magna. On his 15th operation over Hanover they were attacked by a night fighter and anti-aircraft fire but they managed to return. After the war he served in Germany and the Middle East. He left the RAF in 1961 and worked for the Navy, Army and Air Force Institute overseas until he retired in 1988.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoffrey Whittle
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BWhittleGGWhittleGGv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Hannover
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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Two typewritten pages
101 Squadron
27 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Conspicuous Gallantry Medal
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Lancaster
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Operational Training Unit
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Lichfield
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
Tiger force
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/996/10627/PTitmanEA1801.1.jpg
6cf1a77777a4844aa558eb13b275fbb0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/996/10627/ATitmanEA181005.2.mp3
10df5247e71f7c8267808fc5c93f5b58
Dublin Core
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Title
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Titman, Nancy
E A Titman
Edith Annie Titman
Edith Annie Swift
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Nancy Titman (b. 1918), two information leaflets and a Conservative party news-sheet. See Nancy Titman 'Swift to Tell: Life in the 1920s - 30s'.
Collection catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Titman, EA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So, so that’s working ok. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre Interviewing Mrs Titman at her home on, well it would be, well that’s the 5th of, the 5th of October 2018 and daughter —
MA: Yes. Marion.
DK: Marion Ashton, her daughter. Right. Ok. I’ll just put that there. So, what I wanted to ask first of all and I hope you don’t mind me saying this for the benefit of the recording but you’re one hundred years old.
NT: Yes.
DK: So, you were born in 1918.
NT: Yes.
DK: So, that was towards the end of the First World War and did your family, father or uncles serve in the First World War?
NT: I lost an uncle in the First World War.
DK: Right.
MA: And Marion’s been to his grave. Haven’t you?
MA: Yes.
DK: Right.
MA: And something about Aunt Et.
NT: Yes. And my aunt was a nurse. A sister.
DK: Right.
NT: At the Horton Hospital in Epsom which was a huge military hospital.
DK: Right. So, your uncle then, where was he killed? Do you know where it was?
NT: I can’t remember.
DK: On the Western Front somewhere, was it?
NT: Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely.
MA: I think so —
NT: Marion’s been.
MA: His grave. But I’ve forgotten now.
NT: Yeah. Yeah. Never mind.
DK: Yeah. So, as you were growing up then and it’s, it’s end of the First World War, 1920s, do you have any reminiscences going back that far of, of —
NT: No. We, I can’t remember. Nobody talked very much about the war. No.
DK: That’s what I was going to say.
NT: But we always had the Memorial at church and big parades, you know. Armistice Parades. Ever such a lot of people. Ever such a lot of men obviously been in the First World War when we were kids.
DK: Yeah.
MA: Didn’t you say they would only talk about it really, really when they were old —
NT: Oh yeah.
MA: And about to die. Then they probably would say something —
DK: Yeah.
MA: About it.
DK: So, whereabouts were you born then? Which town?
NT: I was born here. About five hundred yards from here.
DK: Oh, ok. So —
NT: I’ve not moved very far.
DK: So, have you lived here all your life?
NT: Yes. I’m a native.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
MA: She’s well known.
DK: Well — [laughs]
NT: Yeah. Yeah. You can’t, you can’t have a better spot.
DK: So, are you one of the oldest in the village now then?
NT: I think, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Probably.
DK: So, growing up here then what was it like? Well, we’re talking about eighty years ago. Over that time.
NT: You can hardly believe it was the same now. When you think back, you know. I’ve written stories in the book.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was so primitive really because we had an outside lav and no water in the house. We had a pump in the yard.
DK: And what were most of the people working here? Were most of them working on the farms?
NT: Most of them worked on —
DK: Yeah.
NT: In some way. They were connected with agriculture in some way.
DK: So, what, what were your parents doing?
NT: My father was a cattle dealer.
DK: Right.
NT: And I used to go out with him in a pony and trap around the fields and we used to count. Count the heads. How many sheep, how many cattle because they used to move them from one field to another to go to market. You know, on the way to market.
DK: Right.
NT: It was good. I had a good childhood. Went to school across the road here where, where Marion went. Where we all went.
DK: So, what was the name of the school then?
NT: That was the Cross School.
DK: Right. And where —
MA: Because you’ve seen the stone cross.
DK: Yes.
MA: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MA: It’s right next, its right next to it.
DK: Right next to it. Yeah. And was it a good school?
NT: Yeah. There were about five or six teachers weren’t there? There were about —
DK: Yeah.
NT: Two, two teachers at the infant school.
DK: Right.
NT: And about five in the —
MA: Primary.
NT: Cross School and that was the education department of Deeping St James.
DK: Right. So, the town then was a lot smaller then.
NT: Yes. Well, I think it was about fifteen hundred population.
DK: And how long did the pupils stay at the school for? Did they leave at —
NT: Oh, until they were fourteen.
DK: Fourteen.
NT: That was it.
DK: And that was the same with the boys and the girls.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And of course, a few people lucky enough to pass the Eleven Plus and got a scholarship to Spalding or Stamford.
DK: So, did you leave at fourteen then?
NT: No. I left at eleven. I got a scholarship.
DK: Oh. Ok.
NT: I went to Stamford High School then.
DK: Right.
NT: Then I went to Peterborough Training College to train to be a teacher.
DK: Right. And, and was that something you’d always wanted to do then?
NT: Yeah, there wasn’t much. There wasn’t much open to you. You’d either be a nurse or a teacher.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Or something like that.
DK: So, what did the boys go off to do when they were fourteen?
NT: Well, most of them worked in agriculture or an office or something like that. Depending on their —
DK: Yeah.
NT: Or apprenticed to be a carpenter or a mechanic or something.
DK: Right. So, did you see teaching as something to get away from what a lot of other people were doing?
NT: Well, yeah. Earn a living.
DK: Earn a living. Yeah.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So where did you train to be a teacher then?
NT: At Peterborough.
DK: Right.
NT: It was a good. It was a good college. It was a church college and we were the last. We were the last students because they closed it after we left.
DK: Oh right. So, you have happy memories there then.
NT: Very. Very.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It’s all in this.
DK: Yeah. I’ll probably need a copy of the book.
NT: You’ll have to. You’ll have to read the book [laughs]
DK: Read the book. So, so we’re talking about now — ? Where are we? Sort of nineteen —
NT: Yes. Getting a job.
DK: We’re talking of —
NT: This is where the story starts.
DK: Right. Ok then. Do you want to tell us about the —
NT: Well —
DK: The job then?
NT: When, in 1938 I passed the, you know, got the [pause] became a teacher. Went to get an interview for a job. Went to Cambridge to an interview and doing —
MA: It’s all in there.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
NT: Then had to go to London for a medical exam to County Hall.
DK: Right.
NT: Which was by Westminster Bridge. Near where the wheel is now.
DK: I know it well. I used to work across the road from there.
NT: Anyway, this going for the medical or coming back I’d be walking down Whitehall thinking I was the bee’s knees.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Somebody gave me this leaflet and this is the one I’ve lost.
DK: Yeah.
MA: Really mad.
NT: You know. What to do, and war was coming. There was, warning you about it and you weren’t to gossip and all this and to be ready for it and so on which, it was a good leaflet, wasn’t it? It was a real good leaflet. I’m so annoyed I’ve lost it.
DK: So, this leaflet was handed out to you.
NT: Yes.
DK: By a total stranger.
NT: Yeah. That’s right. Somebody.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was 1938. And then of course I got a job at Everington Street in Fulham. That was, that three-storey school. You know, all those in London.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Those. There used to be a big playground and we had senior girls at the top and infants at the bottom.
DK: Right. Oh right. Ok.
NT: And we had.
DK: That was in Fulham.
NT: The head mistress was Miss Bolton.
DK: Right. So, you’d have been twenty years old at the time then.
NT: Yes.
DK: So, was this kind of your first time away from home?
NT: Yes.
MA: Yes, she was quite excited, weren’t you?
NT: Yes.
MA: Being in London instead of being —
NT: I was thrilled.
MA: In Deeping St James.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I stayed with a cousin for a week or two just to get me started before I found some digs.
DK: So, what, how did you find the difference living, being born out here and then going to the big city in London?
NT: Well, it was different, of course but I enjoyed it [laughs] Yeah, it was interesting.
DK: So —
NT: Everybody was kind.
DK: Yeah. So just going back to this leaflet that was being handed out down Whitehall. Was that an official leaflet?
NT: No. I don’t, well I don’t know it was official. I don’t think it was really. I suppose it must have been. I don’t know. I can’t remember now.
MA: But you didn’t think much of it but you kept it.
NT: Yeah.
MA: We can look it for it again.
NT: I mean, looks —
MA: She’s still got it somewhere.
DK: Right. Ok.
NT: Lots of people have been and asked about war. I had a lady who was writing a book and I gave her lots of bits but I’m sure I didn’t give her that.
DK: No.
NT: And I’ve been through every scrapbook and I can’t find it.
DK: So —
MA: It’s bigger than this wasn’t it?
NT: Yes.
MA: Was it about that size?
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yes.
MA: Yeah.
DK: So, so 1938 then this would have been the time of the Munich Crisis.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Were you aware of what was going on in the world at the time then?
NT: Not particularly. No. We knew. You tried, you tried not to believe it because you didn’t think it was real because Mr Chamberlain had assured us everything was going to be alright after his visit with Hitler, you know.
DK: Peace in our time.
NT: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
NT: So, you know like you carry on with your life don’t you and you hope for the best.
DK: Yeah.
NT: But then we knew because we, we had to do gas mask training and all this.
DK: Yeah.
NT: All these things. We knew it was coming later on.
DK: And, and, this might sound an odd question now but when you were with your work colleagues. The other teachers. Did you talk about the world situation and the fact there might be a war or was it something you kept —
NT: Didn’t talk about it very much. We tried [laughs] tried to think it wasn’t going to happen.
DK: Right. So, what were you actually teaching at the school then?
NT: Infants.
DK: Right. So, it was a wide range of subjects.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Were they well behaved?
MA: Well behaved? They were in those days.
NT: Oh, they were. They were very well behaved. Ever so good.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I don’t think, I can’t remember anything bad happening. They were all good kids.
DK: Right.
NT: You know, they must have been but you forget about that, don’t you?
MA: When you told me the story about being evacuated. I, I always think that they would cry.
DK: Yeah.
MA: And not want to —
DK: And they were —
NT: But they didn’t.
DK: So, just for the benefit of the recording not everybody knows what Infant’s is because I think they’ve changed the description now. So how old were the children? Between what age group? Were they five?
NT: The ones that I taught?
DK: Yeah.
NT: Oh, about five. Just after reception. Six. Five or six.
DK: Five and six. Right.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Ok. And how, how did your lessons go? Were you, were you there and —
NT: Yeah. I can’t remember now. You know what you just.
MA: You could play the piano as well.
NT: Oh yeah.
MA: So they could sing.
NT: We used to sing a lot and stories and all that. Taught them to read and write as you always do.
MA: Basic math.
NT: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And, and even the children at that age did they understand anything? That there might be a war coming?
NT: No.
DK: So —
NT: They wouldn’t bother about it all.
DK: No. So going back.
NT: Expect they’d have to.
DK: Sorry.
NT: Go in these blessed masks. Gas masks, which weren’t very good. Smelled horrible, and ugh.
DK: So, did you have to show the children then how to put the gas masks on?
NT: I think, I think we went to a centre. I can’t remember now. I think we went to a centre and had a go at it, you know. I don’t —
DK: Yeah.
NT: I can’t remember those things very much. It’s all gone hazy.
DK: Yeah.
MA: It’s a while ago.
DK: It is now. So, moving on to the following year now you’re still in London. 1939 and the war starts. Can you remember your, your feelings then of how it got to you?
NT: Oh, we were a bit apprehensive I can tell you but you just had to accept it because what could you do? Nothing. Well, you just accepted it.
DK: So, did you remain in London for the beginning of the war period?
NT: No. We were evacuated on the 1st of September.
DK: Right.
NT: And war started on the 3rd and it’s in my little story —
DK: Yeah.
NT: We went to wait. Wait for the transport, I suppose. We waited in, in the school hall.
DK: Right. And this is the school in Fulham.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: This is the school in Fulham. We waited in the church hall and the kids had got all their bags and things.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I had a rucksack. I thought I was the bee’s knees. We didn’t take much with us obviously.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And we waited there. I was a girl you see. I was the young teacher. Miss Bolton was fifty seven. We thought she was —
DK: Ancient.
NT: You know [laughs] One foot in the grave. And she was a funny little lady but she was kind. And she said, ‘My dear,’ she said, ‘I want you to go up to town.’
Other: There you go. Thank you very much.
NT: Thanks very much, Keith.
[recording paused]
DK: So, just, just going back there then.
Other: The order’s come, sorry, the order, I’ll make a —
NT: It’s alright.
DK: So, you’ve had to evacuate then. Were the parents there when their children were going?
NT: The parents didn’t come to the station. We went from, we went from school in Fulham Palace Road.
DK: Yeah.
NT: In buses. I think we went to Sudbury. And the parents weren’t with them then.
DK: Right.
NT: We’d just got children. I don’t remember the parents at all, and we got to Sudbury. I haven’t told you the story.
DK: Yeah. Go on.
NT: And that’s the best bit though.
DK: Do you want to tell it now then?
NT: I do.
MA: Tell it mum.
DK: Yeah. Fire away.
NT: About Mrs Bolton. We were waiting in the hall with all our gear and ready to go and Miss Bolton said, ‘My dear, I want you to nip down to Hammersmith.’ She said, ‘They won’t be here for us for a long time. You nip down to Hammersmith. Make haste and get me twenty pounds out of the bank.’
DK: Right.
NT: ‘We don’t want to get stuck in some God forsaken place with no money.’ So, so I had to go to Hammersmith on the bus. I was the girl, the runner and get this twenty pounds. I hope nobody, I hope I manage to get back with this money alright. Anyway —
DK: Quite a lot of money back in those days.
NT: I got back with the twenty pounds in time and Miss Bolton went in to her staffroom and stitched the money into her stays [laughs] You don’t believe me, do you?
MA: He does actually.
NT: Absolutely —
DK: No one was going to steal it from there, are they?
NT: See, twenty pounds was a lot more than I got for a month’s wages.
DK: Really. Really. So —
NT: So anyway, that was it. So off we went on the bus to Sudbury and we got on the train and they’d all, they were quite happy the children were and the guard was walking up and down and I said, ‘Where are we going, please?’ He said, ‘I can’t tell you my dear.’ He said, ‘I can’t tell you’ He said, ‘But I think it might be somewhere in Northamptonshire.’ And I thought oooh, we might be going to Deeping. Anyway —
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was Brackley.
DK: Right. So even when you were on the train then it was all secret and you didn’t even know where you were going.
NT: Yeah. It was just, it wasn’t funny but —
DK: No.
NT: It was just as if we were going on a trip. What else could you do?
DK: And so, you had the headmistress there.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And yourself. Was there any other teachers?
NT: Yeah. We had a lot. Quite a lot.
DK: Right.
NT: Ever such a lot. But when we got to Brackley there was a row of little buses and we all had to change. Different buses. And Miss Bolton wasn’t in our, our lot. My friend and I, we got in the, we were in the last bus and we got to a place called Twyford. But no, they were quite good.
DK: Yeah.
NT: The children were quite good.
DK: And what accommodation did the children get?
NT: Well, farms and we got a council house where a lady, a new council house and the lady was very houseproud. She wouldn’t have any children so we had to go there but some of the people didn’t want the children very much.
DK: No.
NT: But —
MA: But they didn’t have a choice. They had to.
NT: Oh, they had them. Yeah. We went to the village hall and they got some lemonade.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And bits of food there for the children and there were ladies there choosing which one they wanted.
DK: So, what about the children themselves? How were they reacting to this? Did they —
NT: I don’t remember.
DK: Did they see it as a big adventure?
NT: Yeah. They just take, they just —
DK: Yeah.
NT: Have to don’t they? They just took it in.
DK: And, and for some of the older children were any of them being chosen because they might be able to work on the farms?
NT: Oh, no. No. No.
MA: They weren’t.
DK: None of that.
NT: No. They weren’t old enough for that.
DK: Right. Yeah.
NT: No.
DK: So —
NT: We liked it. Then we had quite but first of all nothing happened at all and we got all these children shoved in to the village school. We had to take it in turns. The village children had the morning and we’d have the afternoons for teaching because there wasn’t enough room. Then gradually the mothers came from London and fetched the children home because nothing was happening. So, we were left with the twenty or twenty four something like that and we more or less integrated with the children then.
DK: Yeah. And where were you actually staying then?
NT: I stayed with the lady in this, in this council house.
DK: Right.
NT: But I didn’t like her very much and after a while I moved with a teacher. One of the teachers.
DK: Right.
NT: That was alright. That was better.
DK: So, the school moved but where were the lessons taking place?
NT: In the village school.
DK: In the village school there. So those that had come from London were then mixing with the local children presumably.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And, and how long were you evacuated for?
NT: Well, I went home after about a year and a half I suppose. Mum wasn’t very good and I’d had enough anyway so I wasn’t too sorry to go.
DK: So, and all the children were evacuated for that period as well.
NT: Well, most of them. Most of them but quite a lot had gone home but there were some still there.
DK: Right. So, you were out of London so when the Blitz had started you missed all that.
NT: Yeah. Actually, actually the Blitz was going on while we were there. We could see the light of London from sort of Aylesbury time. We were near Aylesbury in Buckingham. You could see the glow in the sky from London burning.
DK: Really?
NT: Yeah.
DK: And did you have any other memories of that period?
NT: No. We didn’t have any bombs or any raids. It was too, too isolated.
DK: Yeah. So, you’ve gone home after a year and a half.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And but what was the reason for that then? What was the reason for you going back?
NT: Just that my mother wasn’t very good and they just needed me. And I tell you I’d had enough really. It was very isolated.
DK: Yeah. And, and so what did you do after that? Were you teaching somewhere else?
NT: Yeah. I went to Spalding.
DK: Right.
NT: From [unclear] maybe?
DK: So, you moved back.
NT: A little while and then I got a bit of country living then. We got butter and eggs and things. Mind you we’d been alright for food in, in Twyford. I’d been no problem.
DK: So, and can you remember much about sort of the rationing and the, the lack of food?
NT: Rationing didn’t hit me until I went back to teaching in Hayes in Middlesex in 1943.
DK: Right.
NT: And then it did.
DK: And, and what was the ration then? What were, what were you entitled to?
NT: My friend and I, my cousin and I lived together and we used to have a little pot. We put a pound each in the pot for housekeeping. Our rations like butter and sugar and the things that were rationed came to three and eleven pence. So, by the end of three weeks when Mitch had got a day off from the telephone exchange we used to take ourselves to London.
DK: Right.
NT: And we had a real treat out of the change out of the pot.
DK: So, all the rations —
NT: Yeah. My, my yeah you had, you had to queue for everything.
DK: Yeah. And you could only get that with the ration card presumably.
NT: Yeah. Ration card.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
NT: Ration books. Yeah.
DK: And, and did you kind of feel hungry at the time, was it?
NT: No. We weren’t hungry. We’d always got enough of something. I can’t remember. I can’t remember where we got bread. It’s just gone out of my head.
DK: Yeah.
NT: But I can remember these rations and my, we used to give my auntie who lived nearby we used to give her the meat ration so it helped her with the family and we used to go —
DK: Right.
NT: And have Saturday and Sunday dinner with her.
DK: Right.
NT: She was a wizard at making Yorkshire pudding with dried egg, and making dinners out of nothing really.
MA: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: But she had to queue for everything.
DK: Yeah. And, and you said come 1943 you’ve moved to Hayes.
NT: Yeah.
DK: In West London.
NT: Yeah. We went. I lived in West Drayton.
DK: I know, I know West Drayton well.
NT: Yeah.
DK: It’s, well, I was born and brought up in Hounslow and Southall.
NT: Yeah.
DK: So that’s my area.
NT: Yeah.
DK: So, what school did you go to in Hayes then?
NT: I went to Pinkwell School in Hayes. Do you know Pinkwell?
DK: Yeah.
NT: Do you?
MA: She hasn’t found many people who know.
DK: I know where it is.
NT: It was a big, it would have been an open-air school and there was classrooms in a sort of big quadrangle with a veranda inside.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Every room opened on the veranda. You couldn’t, you know, you had to go on to the veranda if you wanted to go anywhere. So, if you wanted to go to the dining room or anywhere you had to go out of the veranda and go to the loo down the yard, you know. Down the veranda. It was all, and then we had to fire watch there. That was the fun. Fire watching.
DK: Right.
NT: So, there were three of us. There were fifteen of us on the staff there. They were all, we were all fairly young. There were two older ladies and all the rest were in our twenties and we had two men. The boss and Mr Miller. He was the, a bit elderly, about forty I suppose he was and they, they ran the school. Boss was exactly like Arthur Lowe. Just exactly like and he behaved like him too. He was pompous.
DK: So, you’ve gone back to Hayes.
NT: Yeah.
DK: In West London then. Did you see much destruction there of —?
NT: Not too much. Not too much.
DK: Bomb damage.
NT: But of course, we had, we had to go into shelters for the Doodlebugs.
DK: Do you remember seeing those? The Doodlebugs or —
NT: We heard them though.
DK: Right.
NT: And the noise. [laughs] and I, because I was a bit excitable Mitch used to say, ‘Don’t you talk. Don’t you say anything.’ We used to hold each other’s hands and she used to say, ‘Don’t say anything because I’m just as frightened as you and it’s no good you saying, “Oh Mitch. Oh Mitch.
MA: What did they sound like then?
NT: [humming]
MA: Oh right.
NT: [humming]
MA: Yeah. Spooky.
NT: It was alright when they were doing that but when they stopped you had to worry if it was going to fall on you because it could have done.
MA: Yeah.
NT: Then you heard this [noise] the earth shaking. Oh dear, I’m saying all this rubbish.
MA: Rubbish [laughs]
DK: So, how long were you at Hayes for then?
NT: I stayed there until 1946.
DK: Right. ‘Til after the war has ended then. So, is there any other memories you have of being in the London area at that time? Do you remember the servicemen who were about?
NT: Well, there was, everywhere you went there were uniforms. Everybody seemed to be in uniform. You know you went on the Tube to work, and all, everybody was in uniform. It was, it was a strange time but we were quite happy. We helped each other and went to school on a bike and slept on the floor in the staff room, and you know and made a little breakfast before the children. It was funny. Really funny.
DK: Do you remember meeting any Americans?
NT: We kept away from the Americans.
DK: Ok. Fair enough.
NT: My cousin Mitch was on the telephone exchange and she used to come home with lurid tales of what the Americans said to the girls on the phone.
DK: Oh dear. So, do you remember much about the, do you remember much about the war when it came to an end?
NT: Oh, do I? That was my day of days. We went to London for the victory.
DK: Right.
NT: I’ve never had such a lovely day. Oh, we were so happy. It was wonderful.
DK: So whereabouts in London did you go?
NT: We went to parks, and went to Buckingham Palace. We went everywhere.
DK: So, you were in the Mall then, were you?
NT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: We just went dancing all around, and changing hats with the sailors and all that. It was fantastic. I’ve never known such a day. It was just like a cork coming out of a bottle. Everybody was so happy, you know. You couldn’t believe it.
DK: Yeah.
NT: The blackout was terrible. I think that was one of the worst things of the war. Everything was black. When, when you went on a train you know, everywhere was dull, and just a glimmer of light and perhaps there was a soldier there with a blooming rucksack and you had to get over them to get to the train. It was awful.
DK: Yeah.
NT: When we used to, if I came home used to get to Peterborough. Perhaps the train would get nearly to Peterborough. You thought oh good. And then it would stop for goodness knows why. And then eventually you got there. Got the last bus home, and they were only small buses and a little man, the bus inspector used to say, ‘Move down the bus. Move down the bus,’ and it was already packed with people. ‘Sit on anybody’s knee. Sit on anybody’s knee.’ And we did. Any fella was sitting on a man’s knee. Nobody seemed to be nasty, you know. There was —
DK: No.
NT: It was lovely. It was a lovely spirit about in the wartime.
DK: Is that something you think is missing a bit now then? Wartime spirit.
NT: No. No. You just go on, but it was nice in a way.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Yeah. We, we made, my cousin and I used to go to London. We used to look around the shops and find, we’d probably find that it looked a bit like sheeting with a hem each end, and we used to buy that and make tennis dresses out of it. We were sewing and knitting all the time you know to make do and mend.
DK: Yeah. So, on VE Day did you see the royal family?
NT: Didn’t hear.
DK: When you were outside Buckingham Palace did you see the royal family?
NT: Oh yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And we saw, we went, when we were in Whitehall and heard Mr Churchill’s speech.
DK: Oh right. So, you were there for that.
NT: We were, and my cousin said, ‘Keep hold of my hand,’ She said, ‘Because we should get lost.’ And I’ve never been in such a crowd in all my life.
DK: Right.
NT: When we moved off you could feel people pressing on you. You know. You couldn’t get your breath properly and we got right down to Westminster Bridge before we felt —
DK: Yeah.
NT: You know, it was such a crowd you can’t believe it.
DK: I’ve seen the photos of that. That was at the top of Whitehall, wasn’t it and Churchill is on the balcony.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Of one of the Ministries.
NT: Yeah. It was. It was War Office or somewhere. It was.
DK: Yeah.
NT: It was absolutely incredible. It was such a relief. You can’t believe it was such a relief.
DK: So, I look at one of those photos I might see you down there somewhere.
NT: You’ll see me there. You’ll see me there. Yeah.
DK: Oh right.
NT: Yeah. I’ll tell you. I’ve told these kids about these wonderful days of days.
MA: Oh yeah.
DK: So, did —
MA: I should think so.
DK: Do you remember what Churchill actually said in his speech or —
NT: No. I only heard it on —
MA: Too many glasses of wine.
NT: Yeah. Yeah. No. It was, it was great relief when it was over because we really we couldn’t believe it was ever going to be over. You know. You couldn’t.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And my husband in the desert he said they just didn’t think war would ever be over.
DK: So, when, I should have asked about this. When did you actually meet your husband then? Was it —
NT: Oh, I knew him before he went. I met him in Deeping.
DK: Oh. So, you knew him from here before the war.
NT: Yeah.
DK: So where did he serve then?
NT: Where did —
DK: Where did he serve?
NT: In the desert. In the Eighth Army.
DK: Right. So, he was gone for years then.
NT: Yeah. We didn’t get married until ’45.
DK: Right.
MA: Tell the story about him coming back when he was coming. What happened when he was coming back?
NT: What about?
MA: When daddy got all the presents. What happened to him? When dad was coming back.
NT: Oh, when he came back and he went from, from North Africa, no Italy he’d been in Italy.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And when he came back, he was on tank transport. He was driving tank transporters from Birmingham to Leith Docks.
DK: Right.
NT: When he got to Stamford and there were no bypass in those days they’d got to get the tank transports through these little towns. The shopkeepers used to come out, ‘Ahhh.’
DK: Oh dear.
NT: They didn’t think they could possibly manage it. It was such a job.
MA: I meant when he was coming back from the war.
NT: Yeah.
MA: And he’d got all the presents for the family.
NT: Oh.
MA: What happened to him when he —
NT: Well, he got, he got shipwrecked in North Africa.
MA: Yeah. That.
DK: Oh right.
NT: Yeah. He got shipwrecked. Well, the ship that he was travelling on got, and he said they got all scraped up their legs getting rescued off this ship. He described it later climbing up the ship, and all his presents that he’d bought to bring all got sank of course.
DK: Oh dear.
NT: And, and the spurs that he got for his dad because his father was a jockey. Had been a jockey.
DK: Oh right.
NT: And he’d got these spurs off a German general or something.
DK: Really.
NT: He said, ‘You don’t need them,’ you know.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Like the squaddies used to, and he got these from this German prisoner, and he was so proud he was going to bring these home to his dad.
DK: And they were lost at sea as well.
NT: Oh yeah.
DK: Oh dear. So, what, what did he do in the Eight Army? Was he driving?
NT: Driver.
DK: He was a driver. Basically, the tank transporters.
NT: Well, he didn’t he didn’t have trans in those days, he just drove lorries.
DK: Right.
NT: Lorries in the desert. Went up and down with Wavell and you know.
DK: Yeah. And then went on to Sicily and Italy presumably.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
NT: [unclear] senorita.
DK: So, when did the shipwreck happen then? Was he on his way back or —
NT: I think that was Tobruk where it went, where the ship went down.
DK: Oh, so he was at Tobruk.
NT: Yeah. Oh yeah, of course he was in Tobruk.
DK: Right.
NT: That’s the bag up there.
DK: Yeah.
MA: Which date was that mum? Was it right at the end of the war?
NT: 1941 to —
No. No.
NT: Yeah.
MA: It was the first break he’d got for some time. He’d been working his socks off, hadn’t he? That was his first break and then that happened. Yes, he was exhausted.
NT: They’d had, they’d had a rough time in the desert really.
DK: Yeah.
NT: Anyway —
DK: Did he, did he talk about it much?
NT: No. He used to tell us the funny things.
DK: Yeah.
NT: The one nasty thing he told, he told us really had haunted him was he’d had to transport lorry loads of dead Poles.
DK: Yeah.
NT: And they were covered up but they knew who they were because they’d got brown boots on.
DK: Right.
NT: It used to haunt him.
DK: It’s a difficult job that one, isn’t it?
NT: Yeah. Anyway —
DK: So, when he came back then what, what was his career after that?
NT: Oh, he went, he went working on the land for a bit.
DK: Right.
NT: With a threshing set. And then he went to the engineering works at Peterborough.
DK: Yeah. And, and what did you do after the war? Did you remain in teaching?
NT: I kept teaching.
DK: Right, so —
NT: Well, I minded the kids first and then my —
DK: So, when did you retire from teaching then?
NT: 1979, was it? Yeah. I think.
DK: Yeah. Right. Ok.
MA: You say you’ve been retired more than you actually taught now.
NT: Lovely. And I get far more money in pension than ever I earned.
DK: That was the year I left school actually. So, so what did you retire as? Did you, did you make it to headmistress or were you just a teacher?
NT: No. I was deputy head.
DK: Deputy head. Oh right.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And what school was that at then?
NT: Deeping St Nicholas. Very little school just up the road.
DK: Right.
NT: On the way to Spalding.
DK: So, your career then.
NT: Yeah.
DK: Came back here.
NT: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve been here.
NT: I’ve always lived here.
DK: You’ve been here ever since.
NT: We like it here, don’t we?
MA: It’s a lovely place. Yeah.
DK: Just one final question then. I think we’ve got most of that then. All these years later how do you look back on the wartime years?
NT: Well, I look back on it with a bit of affection in a way. There was, it was a hard time but it drew people together, you know, and it was a very hard time but I was very lucky because I didn’t have any hard things to deal with.
DK: Yeah.
NT: I do. I quite look back on quite affectionate, but it was sad in a, very sad.
MA: The uncle who died didn’t his parents die soon afterwards because it was —
NT: Afterwards. Yeah.
DK: That was the uncle who died in the First World War.
NT: Yeah.
NT: Yeah.
ME: Yeah.
NT: I didn’t know him.
DK: Right.
NT: What else can I tell?
DK: What about children today? Would you like to still be teaching them today?
NT: No. I would not.
DK: No. Fair enough.
NT: Don’t start me on that. Don’t start me on that.
DK: We’ll skip over that.
NT: Oh dear. We were just saying weren’t we? We were just saying when children were the bottom of the heap when I was young. Now they’re like princesses and lords aren’t they?
DK: Yeah.
NT: Pampered. Not good.
DK: Not good, is it?
MA: We did as we were told.
DK: Yes. Yes. So, did we.
NT: Well, you had a good childhood.
MA: Oh yes.
NT: You weren’t treated —
MA: But we did as we were told.
NT: Yeah. Well, you —
DK: Ok then. Well, I think we’ll finished there unless there’s anything else you want to say. Or is there anything else you wanted to say? Or are you happy with that?
NT: No. I don’t think so.
DK: No.
NT: No. It was nice of you to come.
DK: Oh, no. Enjoyed it. Well, I’ll switch this off then. Thanks very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Nancy Titman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATitmanEA181005, PTitmanEA1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:34:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Nancy Titman was born in 1918, and grew up in Deeping Saint James, Lincolnshire. At the age of eleven she won a scholarship to Stamford High School and did her teacher training in Peterborough. In 1938 she attended an interview in Cambridge, had a medical in London and her first job was teaching infants in Fulham. At the start of war, she was evacuated away from London with the children, with whom she continued to teach, and remembers seeing the glow of fires from London burning during the Blitz. She returned to Spalding and continued teaching, and in 1943 moved to Hayes. After the allied victory she remembers celebrating the war’s end in London and hearing Churchill’s speech. She married in 1945.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
bombing
evacuation
home front
V-1
V-weapon