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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/132/1289/PTempleL1501.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/132/1289/ATempleL151027.1.mp3
7e68bfdea2e63e23d0c117e0dcb60971
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Temple, Leslie
Leslie Temple
L Temple
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview and one warrant related to Warrant Officer Leslie Temple (b. 1925, 1893650 Royal Air Force). The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Leslie Temple and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound. Oral history
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Temple, L
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Yes we are, we’re ready to go. Okay, this is, we’re ready to start. The machine’s running I think. Yes okay, so this is Andrew Sadler interviewing Les Temple, Mr. Leslie Temple, at his home in Ilford on Tuesday the 27th of September 2015 for the Bomber Command Archive. Thank you very much for allowing us to interview you Les.
LT: Good.
AS: Can I start by asking you about your date and place of birth?
LT: My birth date is 12th of January 1925 you see. Now I was born in the East End of London, and I had an older – my parents who – my father had come from Poland when he was fourteen and my mother as a young baby when she was born, she came over to England with her mother, and my parents had my brother Arthur. He was four years older than me, Arthur, and he went into the Army. When the war started, he was conscripted into the Army and in 1941 he was sent to France and there lo and behold in France, he was captured and made a prisoner of war. He was a prisoner of war for four years [emphasis] in Germany, and there’s quite a bit of history in his name obviously. But in the meantime, whilst he was away I reached conscription age and living in the East End of London at that particular time – when I was born, I was born and my brother was a bit older [emphasis] than me, so he didn’t sort of used to do the same, same things [laughs] together. He went into the services and then we moved at the beginning of the war to Leyton [emphasis], E10, and from there I was conscripted at the age of eighteen and I was conscripted for the RAF because I had spent four years in the Air Training Core [emphasis]. I was in the Air Training Core, I was conscripted, and in effect I was happy to be going into the RAF and for air, aircrew duties. And I went in initially as a radio operator, wireless operator and in that time, before that time I had been at school in Leyton, E10, at which I was sorted out there because I was always receiving first place in class – and my father was a tailor, and in effect he [laughs] couldn’t afford for me to go on to higher sort of class, school when I reached the age of fourteen and he, I had to go to work. But the fact was, is that I had my school reports there [laughs] of which I have first place in every one, and in that respect the school wanted me to go onto higher school, Leyton County High School, and, but my father I’m afraid in this respect he wasn’t earning much as a tailor and he couldn’t afford for me to go on in school, and I had to go to work. And strangely enough my first job was for the London County Council, Mr. Charles Leyton who I worked for in the office when I left school at the age of fourteen, he was the principle of the London County Council [emphasis]. So he took me into the London County Council and I was worked, worked there for a couple of years. And I found that I couldn’t earn enough to satisfy my parents who it was rather shame that they, you know, things weren’t all that good in those days in the, in the tailoring trade and so on and so forth. So it went on that I found various jobs to improve my mode of being able to live and earn money and I went into the insurance business [emphasis], and I started at a pretty young age in the insurance business, learning the office work and so on and so forth, and then I went into, into the Air Force because the war started and I was taken in as a radio operator, and in effect I had joined the Air Training Core during that period, and I was four years [emphasis] in the Air Training Core, which I did, did quite well, and as you can see here, the history is even in here about me being in the Air Training Core, and they decided it would be good for me to go in as a radio operator into, into the RAF.
AS: Why did you originally go into the Air Training Core, what inspired you?
LT: Well it inspired me because my brother [emphasis] was going to be conscripted in the Army, and I felt that I was capable of handling the things required in the, in the RAF, and I was pretty good at the Morse code and one thing and another in the Air Training Core, and so I applied to, to go into the RAF, and that’s how I was conscripted at that particular time for the RAF. And in effect [paper shuffles] let me see now [continued shuffling, pause]. Ooh, yes [shuffling, pause]. [Reading]: ‘confounding the enemy, the RAF Jewish Special Operators of 101 Squadron, Bomber Command.’ Now in the RAF I was, I did all the examinations and so, learnt the Morse code pretty quickly and so on, and as it got in the book here, [reading]: ‘much of the history of the secret telecommunication of war, against the Germans during the Second World War is still classified and shrouded in mystery, including the radio countermeasures of RAF Squadron 101.’ Now –
AS: So you were in 101?
LT: I was in 101 Squadron you see. Now 101 was a particular – [reading]: ‘it was a great history of the advancement made of telecommunications in the RAF because we were using the special Morse code details for confounding the enemy and also learning what they were transmitting, and we’ – the normal – I went, I went into various [emphasis] stations – I’ll show you, just a moment [pause, papers shuffle]. Well I had it here before, it’s all down here. [Reading]: ‘confounding the enemy in the RAF Jewish [unclear] 101,’ right. Right, my number was 1893650, would you like to make a note [?]. [Pause, continued shuffling].
AS: Good, carry on.
LT: Now, as it says here, [reading]: ‘1893650, Flight Sergeant Leslie Temple, born in 1925 to Jane and Solomon in Stepney, joined the RAF in January 1943 aged eighteen, but has served in the Air Training Core from the age of fourteen. He received initial air training at Bridgnorth in Shropshire, on De Havilland Dominies and Proctors. Radio training at Madley, acclimatisation on B17s at Sculthorpe in Norfolk and a Lancaster Conversion Course at Lindholme in Yorkshire, before being sent as a full flight sergeant aged nineteen to join 101 Squadron.’ I don’t know whether you’ve heard of 101 before, have you?
AS: No, not really.
LT: No, well – [reading]: ‘to join 101 Squadron at Ludford. He’d learnt German at school and spoke fluent Yiddish at home.’ Well you know Yiddish was the language which the foriegn Jews used when they came to London. They couldn’t speak English properly so they were able to speak easily to each other. [Reading]: ‘but the SO work was so secret that they had no idea until he arrived at Ludford,’ – I arrived at Ludford Magna, that was the station that I arrived at. They used to call it not Ludford but Mudford [laughs] it was so, so bad. [Reading]: ‘until he arrived at Ludford why he’d been sent there. He completed thirty missions between 22nd of June against the Reims Marshalling Yard and 28th of October 1944, Cologne.’ So I did my air operations between 22nd of June and 28th of October 1944, on Cologne.[Reading]: ‘other raids from his still prized logbook including Essen, Frankfurt, V1 [?] sites, through concentrations after D-Day, Cahagnes [?], Hamburg and Sholven. Special operators worked intensely on the journeys out and home for several hours, but over the target could only watch. Once the bombers were near the target, it was obvious to the enemy where they were going, so jamming [?] was superfluous.’ When you got near the target you stopped jamming [?] you see, only when you was coming to the target and listening, listening into what the Germans were saying. [Reading]: ‘Leslie Temple explained that the rear gunner in Able ABC Lancasters,’ ABC is you know, Airborne Cigar, that’s ABC – ‘had heavier machine guns than usual because the planes were particularly vulnerable transmitting over enemy bombers.’ Now did you see a thing, Lancaster Bomb, Lancaster Bombers –
AS: Yes.
LT: Ah it’s under, under this book there.
AS: Yeah.
LT: You see now, Lancaster Bombers – the compliment for a crew for a Lancaster was seven, a long was seven. But 101 was the only squadron that had eight [emphasis], and we had eight because we were a special aircrew, squadron which was trans, doing the special operators work, interfering with what the Germans were transmitting to their fighters and so on. Now, the fact that I had a knowledge of the German language , the fact that I had a knowledge of the German language made me that eighth member of the crew, because when I was, when I went to, what’s her name at the beginning, my first squadron at Ludford – I, I had this crew, I joined the crew which I joined because it was time they arrived and I arrived you see, to make up the eighth, eighth member. I did six operations with them, but the skipper, he used to mess about with ladies and so on and so forth, and what happened was he, the crew was disarmed and so on, and taken off [emphasis]. And there was I, left at Ludford without a crew [emphasis]. And I, I had done six operations with them. Well when I was there on my own it was lucky for me that Eric Neilson came in with his crew, and he had seven members of his crew who came to Ludford Magna, to 101, to start operations. So they said to me ‘right, you join him as a special operator.’ Now aircraft in 101, their machine guns were point five. The normal machine gun in a Lancaster and aircraft used by the RAF were 303s. We had heavier machine guns in 101, and it was a wonderful reason that we had [laughs] point fives, because they were very useful on many occasions, and I joined them as a special operator. Now I don’t know whether you know, the Lancaster was converted to a special operation aircraft because when you got into a Lancaster, behind the door on a normal Lancaster was a bed. Well on our Lancasters, 101 Squadron, the bed was taken out and the place was made for the special operators. I had my recording equipment and my equipment to listen, listen in to the German transmissions, and I could hear the German language and I could understand what was going on, and I would transmit that to my skipper when anything was happening that was useful to us. And so we had eight in the crew. Our Lancaster was converted from seven individuals to eight [emphasis], and I was the special operator, and the whole [emphasis] squadron was this way. We all had eight in the crew [phone rings]. Oh, excuse me a minute, is that –
[Tape paused and restarted].
AS: Okay, do carry on.
LT: Right, now I was up to this question – what, have you been over this question of why we had eight, eight members?
AS: Yes.
LT: You’ve been over this, and where they were situated and so on –
AS: Yep.
LT: And so forth. Now where were we up to –
AS: You just told me that.
LT: Yeah. Now when, when I had got my crew, Eric Neilson came in and I joined them. I had done six operations, you see when – you know the tour was at thirty, you were supposed to do up to thirty you see, so I did twenty-three with them, which is in my logbook and, for you to see, and in effect, we were getting on extremely well. I was, you know made[laughs], made right for them, but I couldn’t do the full tour that they were doing, you see. They would have to do the thirty and I would only have to do twenty-three to do. And in effect this, this situation developed where I did the twenty-three with them and I had to come off because I done thirty. I did six and I did another one with another crew, just one, to finish off my thirty [emphasis]. And Eric Neilson had to get another operator you see, so in effect as it says here in this history, that we got on very well together, we had a number of difficult situations to do, but the worst operation we had was on a raid on Kiel [emphasis], where we went to Kiel [papers shuffle]. We took off from Ludford just before midnight, at twenty-three fifty-five for the heavily defended German naval base at Kiel. The Lancaster was blown slightly off course over the North Sea so the bomb aimer had to ask that they, that they fly round for a second time over the target to ensure accuracy, which was always extremely hazardous. As we did not jam [?] over the actual target, I could watch everything from the astrodome. I used to go into the astrodome when we reached the target area, because I had to come off my, my equipment and we started doing our bombing [emphasis], and dropping, and dropping the bombs you see, and as it says here: [reading]: ‘there was a solid curtain burst and hellish flak, wall of searchlights across the sky. Other bombers all around waiting to release their bombs, and predatory German night fighters spitting canon fire. Finally we dropped our bombs on target, but were suddenly nailed by a master searchlight on the way out. Immediately, a dozen others combed us at twenty thousand feet.’ All these other searchlights, we got on a master searchlight caught us in its [laughs] light and the other searchlights came on and we were combed at twenty thousand feet. [Reading]: ‘extremely German flak opened up and we were scarred with shrapnel which simply passed through the airframe, over our two port engines and burst into flames. I feared the worst as I could not bail out over the North Sea at night.’ We were over the North Sea and we had these two engines caught [laughs] fire. [Reading]: ‘our quick thinking Canadian skipper, Eric Neilson, who was given the DFC from this operation, nose a Lancaster down and pulled out of the beam at five thousand feet. The pillar and flight engineer, the pilot [emphasis] and flight engineer managed to extinguish the flames over the North Sea using the internal extinguishers, and despite no power from the directional equipment because of the two cut engines, our skilled navigator used’ –. Now this is – he, our navigatior, he always carried a sextant. You know what a sextant is, for direction and so on and so forth, and [reading]: ‘stars trying to get us home on two engines. We crash landed at Ludford in Lincolnshire and our back at our aerodrome, a special crash landing base at about four a.m. with over a hundred [emphasis] holes in the Lancaster.’ We had over a hundred holes in it, and er – [reading]: ‘after debriefing, I laid on my bed and could not stop shaking for twelve hours. The MO said the best cure was simply to get back up again soon and of course we did.’ No counselling in those days, so that was a pretty difficult situation, which we [laughs], we got, we came back on two engines and crash landed [laughs] and so on and so forth. Now tell, I’ll tell you something that we haven’t written down. The way to get your wheels down in a Lancaster was through hydraulic tanks. Now, if you were out too long, or else [?] they were punctured, the tanks then you couldn’t get your wheels down. The only way you could get down was you had to crash land. So we couldn’t get our wheels down when we got back to our base [emphasis] and the pilot said to us ‘right boys, you’ve got to go and do business [laughs] to pee, to pee in the tanks, the hydraulic tanks.’ So we had to go and pee in the hydraulic tanks, and we managed to get sufficient water to get the wheels down, you know, and that was the only way we could get down safely [emphasis] by doing that. And we just [emphasis] got down, you know, it was a tremendous situation otherwise we were going to have to crash, crash land without any wheels you see, and that was, that thing on Kiel. And that really, on the 23rd of July 1944 was the worst possible trip that we had, and in my thirty operations that was the – because we got shot up and we had, you know, all the situations that developed, being involved with the Germans at that time, but anyway, we managed, managed okay. So is that quite clear to you?
AS: How many more trips did you have to do after that? Where was that in the –
LT: Er –
AS: In the order of them?
LT: That [papers shuffle] that was my twenty-third [emphasis] operation that was.
AS: So you got another seven to do?
LT: Another seven to do, yeah. And you know, it was very, very close. After serving in 101 I was told to take a long leave and thereafter working as ground crew, and [long pause] –
AS: So, so you did your thirty and after that you worked on the ground. You didn’t have to do anymore?
LT: I didn’t have to do anymore, no.
AS: Right.
LT: I worked on the ground –
AS: ‘Cause I read some people had to do another thirty and then –
LT: Oh well that is if you did a straight [emphasis] thirty you weren’t forced [emphasis] to go do a second operation, operational trip. They asked [emphasis] you if you wanted to go you could go, and you found a suitable crew you could go. But I’m afraid that doing thirty trips in a Lancaster at that particular time [laughs] it, it didn’t sit, make you want to go back and have another go [laughs], I can tell you that much.
AS: Were there many people who did thirty, I mean, I mean it was incredibly dangerous wasn’t it?
LT: Oh yes, oh yes.
AS: You must have lost a lot of comrades on the way.
LT: Well, I lost my best pal in the Air Force, a boy named Jack Whitely. We were on a raid going out, and we were circling off the coast, off the English coast, waiting to go out when we saw an explosion in the sky, and what happened was two aircraft had collided because when you were going out, you went to the coast and you all got into your positions. There might have been three or four hundred aircraft, but you all had certain times where you would take off for your target you see, which would put you in a certain position. Well, at some times you got there a little early, you couldn’t go, go off for your operation, so you had to wait. All you’d do is you’d go round and round and round, you see, waiting for your time to come up while you went on operation. Well, at times you were very, very close to other aircraft, especially at night and they were very much a number of collisions. And Jack, real name Jack Whitely who I went through radio school and everything, and as a matter of fact I’ve got information here from his family. They wrote to me, I think it’s in that file there. They wrote to me and you know, because Jack and I we used to be, go to each other’s homes and so on and so forth when we were on leave, and he got killed. They fished him out the, fished him out the sea. And this is the sort of life you had in the Air Force. You didn’t know where you – you made friends but you didn’t know what was going to happen on your next, on your next, next trip.
AS: Your thirty trips, how far, how far apart were they?
LT: Thirty – well in the winter they were further apart than in the, in the summer. A lot depended on, on the weather. I did my, my thirty took me about what, four, four, about five months it took me, yeah. And sometimes it took much longer, it took seven or eight months, and in the summer, if we were completely in the summer weather, well you were that much better off [laughs] as far as getting down quicker. But a lot of boys went back and did second, second tours. But I found myself that getting through one tour was heavy enough.
AS: You’d had your luck, and you were sticking with it.
LT: Yes, definitely [emphasis], definitely.
AS: So when you, then you became ground crew. What did you do with the ground crew, as a ground crew?
LT: Well, when I went back on ground crew I was teaching other boys, you know, carrying on, on various squadrons to teach other boys what you learnt when you [emphasis] were flying, and that’s, that’s what I did, and it, it was 1944 and we were getting towards the end [laughs] of things then. We were finding things that promised, made, we made promises [emphasis] to finish, finish the war then and it, it was a great life at the time because I’d never been abroad when I went into the Air Force. I’d never been abroad or anything like that, and it was a totally, totally different life. And since then it’s been seventy, seventy years [emphasis], seventy years since –
AS: Hmm.
LT: Finishing a tour.
AS: When you did the ground, when you were with the ground crew, was, where were you stationed then? Was that still in Lincolnshire?
LT: Oh yes, yes, Lincolnshire. I think I got [papers shuffle] something here [long pause]. Got here, [reading]: ‘there was little doubt that outside the small circle of 101 Squadron veterans, few knew, few know the important dangerous work of the special [emphasis] operators and their Lancaster crew comrades. Less still, the role of the Jewish SOs,’ special operators, ‘it is to be hoped that this study will bring deserved, if belated recognition to this brave band of brothers.’ Now where did I – [papers shuffle, long pause], hmm.
AS: So how long were you – was it ‘til you were demobilised at the end?
LT: What come off aircrew?
AS: Yes. I mean when you, when you left the RAF, when was that?
LT: I left the – well I was, what, in the RAF nineteen, nineteen, what – just a minute I’ll give you the details, are just here [papers shuffle, long pause]. Hmm, excuse me, looking this up. [Long pause] 24th [?] 1944 [long pause]. [Reading]: ‘from October 1943, Squadron 101 flew two thousand, four hundred and seventy-seven sorties with Airborne Cigar from Ludford Magna. They dropped sixteen thousand tonnes of bombs between January 1944 and April 1945 alone [emphasis], and flew more bombing raids than any other Lancaster squadron in Group 1, losing one thousand and ninety-four crew killed and a hundred and seventy-eight prisoners of war.’ Now, we lost more individuals in our squadron than any other RAF squadron –
AS: Mm.
LT: You know. [Reading]: ‘the highest causalities of any squadron in the RAF,’ 101 Squadron. It’s a good thing for you to have noted. [Reading]: ‘it dropped sixteen thousand tonnes of bombs between January forty-four and April forty-five, and flew more bombing raids than any other, than any other Lancaster squadron in Group 1.’
AS: Hmm.
LT: Yeah. [Reading]: ‘losing one thousand and ninety-four crew and a hundred and seventy-eight were prisoners of war. The highest casualties of any squadron in the RAF.’ It, we were a tough, a tough squadron.
AS: So what date did you, were you demobilised from the RAF?
LT: What date –
AS: Yes.
LT: Did I, excuse me [papers shuffle, long pause]. Well I finished my tour 23rd October forty-four. Now [papers shuffle]. Now, 28th of October forty-four – I started operations [continued shuffling] in June forty-four to October forty-four. That’s when, that’s my whole –
AS: That’s from your logbook.
LT: Yeah.
AS: But when did you actually leave the RAF?
LT: The RAF was in, in forty, forty-five I think. I can’t –
AS: Did you leave immediately after the war finished?
LT: Er, yes [shuffling]. I’ve got a note somewhere when I left the RAF.
AS: What did you do after, after you left?
LT: What did I do?
AS: Hmm.
LT: I became – I had one or two little business activities, but I went into insurance business. I was an insurance broker for many years. I had my office in The Temple. You know The Temple?
AS: Mm.
LT: Smiths [?], Selma [?] and Temple and Company, Temple Chambers, Temple Avenue, East E4, that was, that was what I was involved in –
AS: Did, did –
LT: When I came out the RAF.
AS: Did you find it easy to settle back into civilian life or?
LT: Well, the early days weren’t easy, the early days weren’t easy. But – because I did a lot of cold calling on businesses in those days, a lot of cold calling to build up a basic clientele. But then I, I got known quite well. I had an office in Shoreditch, and then I went up to Ludgate Circus, and then from Ludgate Circus we were doing well with the Norwich Union, and they said to me that ‘we’ve got offices in The Temple.’ They owned these offices in the Norwich Union and ‘we’d like you to come in there and operate [laughs] and we can do business together.’ So that’s the way – until my retirement at sixty-five. Really I retired too early [emphasis]. I could have gone on working and it’s, I mean when you look at it gently, I’m now coming up ninety-one. I’m retired, you know, twenty-six, twenty-six years ago [laughs], it’s, you know to fill in your time over those years it takes, it takes a lot of doing. And I’ve filled in a lot of my time with doing building for other people sort of thing, going, passing on my know how to other people, and that’s the, that’s the way it’s been.
AS: And tell me about your comrades in your crew. You told me you kept in touch with them.
LT: Yes. Well did you see that letter –
AS: I did yes.
LT: From my skipper?
AS: Yes I did. Your skipper Eric Neilson.
LT: Yeah.
AS: Tell me, tell me, tell us about Eric.
LT: Eric’s, Eric was a – well he had his own aircraft in Canada. He he had his own plane, and he wanted me to go out there but I missed it. I didn’t go out to Canada and then things, things happened that are just right. We were writing, phoning each other and so on, keeping, keeping in touch [emphasis]. I kept in touch with about four of my crew. The one you saw the card, just died, Stan Horne my navigator. Kept in touch with him, and with Eric, Eric died pretty early [emphasis] you know.
AS: Did he? And he was the one who was the deputy prime minister in Canada.
LT: In Canada, yes. And you can see in your, in the book there’s some very nice pictures of him.
AS: And this is his memories, his autobiography we’re looking at.
LT: Yeah [shuffling papers]. See there’s our, there’s our crew there –
AS: Oh yes [long pause, shuffling].
LT: Lovely man [shuffling continues]. Life moves very quickly.
AS: And after the war what – I mean how do you think that Bomber Command were treated? Have you got any opinion on that?
LT: On Bomber Command – well no not really. I haven’t got a lot of experience [emphasis] with Bomber Command.
AS: No.
LT: But I’ve kept together, yeah I’ve been going to the RAF club regularly. I still go there occasionally.
AS: In Pall Mall?
LT: In Pall Mall, yes.
AS: Yes.
LT: Opposite the memorial.
AS: Yes.
LT: And go up there and, you know, because it gets to the stage when you’re here, you know, you make friends with someone and then they’re gone, die [laughs] you see. And there’s a session, session, a procession [emphasis] of men dying now –
AS: Hmm.
LT: Because everybody, everybody will, we’ll all go. I don’t know when, how much longer [laughs] I’ve got, you see. But it’s been a great [emphasis] experience in one’s life, to have gone through, gone through all this. It’s – I could go on for, on for days [emphasis] going over, going over things that –
AS: Shall we, erm, well shall I stop the recording, and we’ll look at some of the –
LT: Yeah.
AS: Archival documents –
LT: Did you –
AS: Materials that you’ve got. The book that you’ve been reading from – can I just –
LT: Did you see this letter?
AS: I’ll have a look at it in a second. The book you’ve been reading from is “Fighting Back: British During Military Contribution in the Second World War” by Martin Sugarman isn’t it?
LT: That’s right, yes.
AS: Yes. Okay, thank you very much, I’ll turn the recorder off now, and –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Leslie Temple
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:39 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATempleL151027
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Leslie Temple spent four years in the Air Training Corps before joining the Royal Air Force as a radio operator. He completed a tour of 30 operations with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna, as a German speaking special operator. He describes how having an eight man crew and extra equipment affected the interior of the Lancaster bombers. He reads from “Fighting Back: British During Military Contribution in the Second World War” by Martin Sugarman throughout the interview.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Katie Gilbert
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
Dominie
fear
ground personnel
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Madley
RAF Sculthorpe
searchlight
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/930/11288/ALloydC180823.1.mp3
60d6de38e62fa8e5dab0b4494bb58e06
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lloyd, Colin
C Lloyd
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Colin Lloyd (b. 1933) He grew up in Lincolnshire and witnessed an aircraft crash.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Lloyd, C
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Colin Lloyd. The interview is taking place at Mr Lloyd’s home at Doddington, Lincoln. Also in attendance is Mr Peter Small. Okay Colin, let’s start with this, let’s start the interview. I’ll ask you, just tell me a bit, when and where were you born?
CL: 1933.
MC: 1933. Where was that?
CL: Torksey.
MC: Oh, you were in Tat orksey. So how long have you lived in this area?
CL: Pardon?
MC: How long have you lived in this area?
MC: Oh, we came up here about, well we came to Whisby Moor from Girton 1942, early ‘42 cause dad worked on the gravel pit down here you see and he got a place down there, and we moved there, down there Gravel Pit Lane, that’s how come me and me pal used to go across there where the aircraft was.
MC: Of course, the airfield.
CL: When we could, you know, we was at school some of the time like, you know.
MC: So being born in 33 you were about what, about six or seven, when war broke out, six.
CL: Oh yeah, seven
MC: Do you remember much about that?
CL: I can remember we lived at Spalford then, do you know Spalford? And we lived there, it was a Sunday, wan’t it. I was coming down the stairs when Chamberlain I think it was you know, saying consequently we are at war with Germany and that was, you know, and then of course after that that was it. Then we moved down from there to you lot know it, I shouldn’t, you might, Green Lane do you know it?
[Other]: Yeah.
CL: Between Girton and Spalford, we was there till about early 1942 and as I said, dad got that job here down at Wigsley see and he got a place with it, down the old lane there and then we came there and was there till about 1948 and then they got a new council house like, after the war.
MC: So growing up during the war, what was it like when, what was, you know?
CL: You know, when you’re youths, it don’t really bother you a lot does it, you know sort of thing. I mean I told your pal here about them two Junkers 88s, well, we lived down Green Lane then, that was, you know, just a lane but there was houses down there, but it was rough old sandy hills and that before they made it a bomb dump and of course, they came, like I told you, they came across from the Trent, oh I don’t know, they must have been less than a thousand foot up and I was stood on the dyke bank like, you know, looking, well you know that, you don’t bother, and the crosses was on the wings and the fuselage, but the swastika was on the tail. But you could see the men like I can see you, and they did one sweep over Wigsley and let ‘em have it like, Manchesters there then, and there was some smoke about so whether they set one on fire I don’t know like but then they cleared off but they shot ‘em both down didn’t they?
MC: Did they?
CL: Before they got to the coast like, but you could see the chaps, you know, they must have been about, five or six hundred foot up, that’s all, course that’s how they got in wan’t it, you know, be about six o’clock, five or six o’clock, summer night like and off they went like.
MC: So I mean did you see any more instances involving RAF aircraft?
CL: No nothing like that, but mostly in the early part there, of the war, you got the Halifaxes coming from Yorkshire and they used to follow the Trent I reckon. But the first lot to come was the Whitleys, cause they was slow, wan’t they, you know, and maybe about half hour after you get the Halifaxes coming cause they catch ‘em up by the time they got to the coast I should think won’t they, maybe, form up then like, but that was the early days before, well before they got the Lancasters, I think was it? When did they come in?
MC: Yeah, yeah, that was before the Lancasters, well they still used the Halifaxes at the same time as the Lancasters. So you used to watch them forming up did you?
CL: Well, they was formed up but they came along, you know, going down south, you know, wherever they turned off, and I should think they meet up there and form up you see like, but there was, it was funny, well it wasn’t funny, but young bloke, his parents had the petrol pumps on the main Newark to Gainsborough road there, and he went in the RAF like and he got to be a navigator and he had one ring I think, what would that be, aye, anyway he was a navigator, did quite a few trips from Finningley, and in the end he got clobbered like and that was it. But he was a nice chap, cause I can remember me and another old boy, we used to play about a bit, and he was on leave you see and he gave us a toffee out of his pocket, you know, which was luxury then, wan’t it. But he got, you know, done in the end like but, and that was that like. Then of course we, as I said, dad got the house down ‘ere and we moved down ‘ere in 1942.
MC: So you’ve been here ever since.
CL: Yeah. And that’s it like. Cause that was open, wan’t it, early on I suppose, before that wan’t it, Manchesters here wan’t they
MC: So did you get on to the airfield much?
CL: Well we used to go, there was a young lad lived at, well you know where you turn up to Hykeham, the junction there, well there used to be two cottages there, farm cottages and I was mate out with the son of one of them, we when we wan’t at school, walk up there between the, up the roadway like, and past the guardhouse because the guardhouse was about half way up wan’t it.
[Other]: I can’t remember it.
CL: No. Is there a farm track there, you know when you get over the roundabout, keep going, is there a track going to the right yet? There used to be a farm down there.
MC: To the left.
CL: To the right, going towards Lincoln. And the called the farmer Halsey.
[Other]: There was a farm down there, wan’t it.
CL: Well he had it during the war, this Halsey, you know.
[Other]: [Unclear] My father used to work there.
CL: The RAF blokes, the officers, some of them used to have MGs as you know, and Morgans didn’t they, three wheels, well when they’d been on operation I should think, debriefed or whatever they did, maybe an hour after, some of them used to come out the guardroom there and straight across the road and down there, through the farmyard and on to the Wigsley road you see, to Hykeham, instead of going down to the bottom there and turning right, you know, there’s a short cut to Hykeham, so whether they was living out I don’t know, but most of them was officers cause they got their, well they’d got their flying jackets on some of them, you know like. That’s what they used to do like, because at the bottom was the hospital. The RAF hospital.
MC: Yes, sick quarters.
CL: Yeah. Cause they used to be, well nice weather they used to sit outside and probably got their arm bandaged up, leg or whatever, but the real serious ones I should think they take ‘em to that military hospital at Lincoln wan’t they.
MC: There was one at Nocton.
CL: There was one at Lincoln.
[Other]: St George’s.
MC: Oh yeah.
CL: Because my brother was in there, when he come back from Japan, soldier he was like, yeah. I don’t think there’s any of it left now is there.
MC: Not much.
CL: I don’t think so, no. And as I say we used to go over there but luckily we wan’t over there that day when that bombs went up you were talking about.
MC: You were around then were you?
CL: I was down the lane you see, well, we happened to be off school and was down the lane, at home more or less and but outside and then there was this hell of a bang and you could hear, you know, sommat whistling through the air – shrapnel I should think - and I told you didn’t I, this old farm what used to be there, it was smack in line for the, about three fields off but, smack in line with the airfield if you get me, where they went off and me brother worked for this farmer and he happened to be in the cow shed and there was one or two horses in there and me brother said the blast was that terrific he said that some of the horses got on their knees with the blast, you know, and when they went outside all his windows were out his house, you know. I told you didn’t I he said to me brother Jim like, said come on boy, I’m going over there, see the CO blowing all my windows. Anyway, got over there, and there’d be RAF blokes about wan’t there and he said I want to see the CO and the bloke said oh well we’ll get him for you like, whoever he was. And of course Tom went too, and the farmer said blown all my windows out and everything, and my brother Jim said, the CO said you’re bloody lucky mate he said, you got the blast it’s a wonder it didn’t flatten your house! You know, it went that way. The the thing was I think he rented some of the land off Halsey, and it was grassland between the airfield and there, his farm, the road, Whisby Road he thought maybe some would get shrapnel in you see, but luckily Jim me brother said he was lucky like, one or two of them got a bit but nowt to [unclear]. He reckoned it laid the hedge over, I told you didn’t I, I [emphasis] didn’t see it but my brother did, he said it laid the hedge over, big hedge, it was aye, you know in them days didn’t bother a lot did they and there was this big hedge and some of the blast caught it, it laid it over and then of course it come back again, just shows don’t it.
MC: Yeah. Force of the blast.
CL: You said there was a lot, hell of a lot on it wan’t there, yeah, bombs like.
MC: I should clarify at this stage we’re talking about RAF Sculthorpe aren’t we.
CL Yeah that’s right.
MC: We never mentioned that.
CL: That’s it. Where the roundabout is, I don’t know whether you know but there was a QR stood there, dispersal there, you know, there was two squadrons wan’t there, QR that was, once or twice we used to walk over that, we didn’t go on airfield, but there was crash gates there, where the runway end was, but the ordinary, was just rough old dyke and bits of hedge, you know, further on but it went, well I don’t know, the dispersal was empty a couple times if I remember right, but whether he got shot down or whether, you know, he was doing maintenance, you don’t know. Because we were, when there was, if it was daylight they was going a bit early on a raid like, wherever they went I should think I don’t know, they used to go early didn’t they sometimes, daylight, course they drop the crews off you see, and you’d see ‘em there walking about, and get in like, and crank up and if they was taking off from this end going towards the cathedral we used to be able to watch ‘em, you see like, if they was coming from both ways like.
MC: You could get fairly close to it.
CL: Oh yeah, I should say about from here to that, you know that tree there, maybe a little bit further, not much.
MC: We’re talking about twenty yards aren’t we.
CL: Yeah. Well, lads you don’t bother, as you know, we used to put a finger up, I don’t know whether it’d be the pilot would it or flight engineer, which side would he be on, he was taxiing from Skellingthorpe side, be flight engineer wan’t it.
[Other]: It would, yeah. on the right
CL: Wave to you like and then there was that there trolley on the side you know, and flash ‘em a green mate open up and off they’d go, bloody hell, you know once it started taking off mate swung the next one round and they gave ‘em another, and other chap was only half way down the runway and that’s what happened that night, what I told you, when they blew up, they didn’t get off, well they got off the floor but they was going that way that night, towards over Whisby.
MC: Yeah, yeah
CL: The flight path like. Well, where that there restaurant is now that was the, over the top of that more or less, and it was about, I don’t know roughly round tea time, five o’clock time, daylight, and it was after D-Day, I’m sure it was and it was taking off, and of course one or two went up and we wasn’t there, we was more or less on the Whisby road, not, about three fields off like watching them, you know and anyway all of a sudden there was a bloody great bang and this black smoke went up, you know, course one had come down, he’d got off the runway and over the road and pretty well up the first field, and then whatever went wrong, he went in like and that was it. Course you know what we’re like, lads, off we went, you don’t realise do you? That’s when we, I told him, we found two blokes, well, we see two blokes like, they was in a hell of a mess they was, and there was oxygen bottles, oh I don’t know, a couple of oxygen bottles a fair way from where some of the plane was like, you know, and there was incendiaries smoking, they were about that length wan’t they those incendiary bombs, and they were smoking you know and that but the big bomb it must have blown up because the airplane was you know blown up like, four thousand pounder maybe was it?
MC: Probably, yeah, probably. If it was after D-Day they, that would be the daylight raids when they were supporting the invasion.
CL: Aye. I was going to say it was about five o’clock time, when they was going like, and oh and what they did then, as soon as he came down and blew up, I should think it killed ‘em all, must have done, anyway, the chap behind him couldn’t stop, so he kept going, he had to do and we thought he was coming down, well he went through the smoke you see, and the bloody thing, I’m not lying, it bloody rocked like that it did, you know, there for a bit wan’t it you know, seeing it, [unclear] couldn’t stop you see, cause you know very well, once one had gone when they give ‘em the green, he gave the other bloke a green and all and he was only half way down the runway, you know.
MC: Too late to stop.
CL: Cause we used to go, sometimes late at night, but when it was not dark but just getting dark, you get me, just to see ‘em in day, half daylight, some of the WAAFs and some of the ordinary air force blokes used to be there, you know waving to ‘em see, and you know off they went and that was it. One behind the other, like.
MC: Yes they used to wave them off regular.
CL: Course that way, going over Lincoln, cathedral way wan’t they. Oh aye, but when, that did upset us a bit when you see them two dead blokes, not a lot like, cause you’re lads aren’t you, but you remember it, you know, but we didn’t see any more cause, oh there was a, by the time in minutes like, there was RAF fellers there you see, and we said something to this RAF bloke about these here chaps like, oh he said clear off you lads, no place for you which it wan’t, you don’t realise do you? We was about twelve I think, something like that you see, so we hopped it like.
MC: So did you see any of the airfield, did you get on to the airfield after, you know, after the war?
CL: Well I used to bike by see, going in to town well when the war finished, they wan’t long taking the Lancs away was they, then that stacking sommat on it, I don’t know, big pipes, big bloody great pipes, they stacked them on there they did, and if I remember right, you know as you go now, to the roundabout on the left hand side, is there some old broken down concrete building, rubble? You know just before you turn, can you remember those gamekeepers places?
MC: Gamekeeper cottages.
CL: Well just by there, well that was a bomb wasn’t it. And petrol wan’t it.
MC: And petrol I think, yeah.
CL: Course not so long ago they found oil there, didn’t they.
[Other]: I’m not aware.
CL: Oh! You know when they were doing the roundabout, the second time, bulldozing about there, they reckon they found tanks full of bloody oil, from the war, you know, they was buried wan’t it. Anyway I wondered if it was still there, cause it was there for years, but that was the way in wan’t it to the, cause they used to have a guard on cause when we was lads guard we used to mooch about there and the guard used to tell us off you know, [laughter] you know but you did, didn’t you, you know.
[Other]: You told me you got on to the aerodrome one day with a, in a gravel truck from Wisby’s.
CL: Some what?
[Other]: As a passenger in a gravel truck, there was some -
CL: Oh aye, yeah. Aye well Atkins they call the firm. The had some women driving for them in the war time, they was six seven tonners, you know, well the gravel pit down there, Tealors, where dad worked, they used to go there you see and leave stuff for tea on, and it was a Saturday morning and Mrs Foster you call this lady what drove this one, she said to mam like, if you want to go to town, it’s my last load I’ll pick you up and take you, but we’ve got to go on to the airfield first and drop a load of sharp sand off you see, so anyway she did picked mam up and I went with her, [unclear] and we turned up there and through the guard room and there used to be an hanger there didn’t there, just through there and huts like, RAF ones, and the officers mess that side and anyway she pulled up at the guardroom she said to the sergeant or whatever he was, I’ve got this sand for you know so-and-so, oh he said you want to go through there duck, he said and near that hangar. Of course off we went and we got to the hangar and she said to a RAF bloke where do you want it and he said well tip it near the door, and there was a Lanc stood there and they’re putting this bloody great bomb on it, this four thousand pounder you know, just hoisting it up. Course she said to this air force chap what’s that, oh he said it’s a four thousand pounder. She said well you’d better sign my ticket, [laughter] let’s be off, she said, bugger this! But it wouldn’t have gone off anyway would it, if they’d dropped it, you know, I don’t think.
MC: A weight [unclear] down.
CL: Well they was just hoisting it in. Cause they used to take one four thousand pounder didn’t it, and so many incendiaries didn’t they? You know, full load. Because you see I got called up and I went to Berlin and it was a hell of a mess, you know.
[Other]: See it from the other end.
CL: Aye. They plonked that place, The Russians did an all, because the Russians, the Russians came in from their part where we were stationed at Spandau and they bloody knocked everything down there though.
MC: So when did you go to Berlin? When did you go to Berlin?
CL: It’d be 19, let’s see 1954, ’53. And we’re camp right, you’ll probably not know, you probably will, they called it Spandau jail, well we was opposite that. And it was a three stories high building and I was on the top floor luckily, and do you know who was there in that jail, I’ll give you a guess: Hess. There was Hess and what d’you call it armament minister, Speer, they was bloody big chaps oh bloody, cause we was up the top you see and you could see over the wall, and the, oh and there was a general, I don’t know who he was, he pegged out while we was there like and they used to let ‘em out inside, and as a hunger march if you get me, you know, walking round right, and they let Hess out cause he, I reckon he did about ten year didn’t he?
MC: Hmmm. Don’t know.
CL: Yeah, about ten year. They let him out, and Hess, Hess was the only bloke, oh the other, the general died there, that’s right, war criminal. They let Hess out I think.
[Other]: They let Speer out didn’t they.
CL: Speer out, that’s it, That’s it, and Hess was there. D’you know they had all these bloody blokes guarding the place for one feller, and if he was badly you know, they used to get him in the bloody ambulance, take him down the military hospital, looked after him like a lord, but they’d got all, all these guards round, on the top, electric fence outside, and the Russians did it for three month, we did it three, the Yanks did it three and the French did it three cause it was in four sectors, wan’t it, and they used to give lectures sometimes you know, some of these officers, and they used to say there’s about twenty divisions of Russians over the border, I thought what the hell can you do with that, there was only about three or four hundred of us and a few more others like. Wouldn’t have stood a chance, would you? Not really like, that’s how it was, wan’t it.
MC: So what was Berlin like in those days?
CL: Well it was you know, knocked about bad like, but I mean didn’t seem bothered much, not with us lot, well a lot of the places the pubs was out of bounds, you know, but the one what was near us we could go in that one. I always remember it because [unclear] bloke I told you didn’t I, ex SS sergeant, he’d been in the SS you know, big bloke like you, but he took that on like, but he didn’t bother us, or any bugger else like, it was business, wan’t it. But one night, I don’t know what happened, we wan’t out that night we heard this here well, bloody dogs barking, you know, outside on the road, away from the pub, the pub was about two three hundred yards down like, and they set about this bloke, this American chap these dogs, it appears he’d set the dogs on him like for some reason, I don’t know what, Yank like, one of them was a nasty Alsatian and bull terriers is it, or sommat and they was savaging him like and luckily our guardroom wasn’t far off and the guard went out and bloody murdered him they would, and he was shouting and bawling this here Jerry you know, anyway military police come and they all cleared off somewhere, they worried him, savage dogs wan’t they. I don’t know what happened mind you, you know, sommat in the pub like, anyway. Aye, bit of history isn’t it.
MC: That was National Service was it?
CL: Yeah. Well I signed for three year. I wouldn’t want to come out you see, I told you didn’t I, was going to go over with the battalion to Malaya, but mam and dad was struggling like in them days, as you know, there’s two or three more they’d got you see.
[Other]: Rationing was still on.
CL: I came out to help them a bit like.
MC: So what were mum and dad doing in those days.
CL: Well dad worked in the gravel pit, he worked about forty year, dad.
[Other]: Most of the gravel going for the airfield construction was it?
CL: Well I took a lot to RAF Coningsby, you know when they first did it for the Vulcans don’t you, 1952 was it? No ’53. ’55 that’s it, cause I didn’t come out till ’54, now, ’55, ’56 and they extended all the runways didn’t they, you know, for the Vulcan.
MC: When you came back from National Service.
CL: Pardon?
MC: What, when you came back from National Service, you went working there?
CL: I went back to, I worked there when I was a lad you see, luckily they wanted somebody to drive locos, can you remember [unclear] Hornsby’s Locos, and them down there you see, and Tubbs, take the stuff out and machine it all in took the machine then you took it up the plant you see, and they wanted somebody to drive it and when I left school you see I was lucky to get that, I did that for three year but you know, soon as you, seventeen and a half you all had to register, but if you was on the farm they didn’t bother you, but anywhere else they took you, cause that was it like, the way. When we went to Lincoln for six month there, no six weeks rather and they split us up in the end, there was about eighty of us in the intake and the forty went to Warwick for Korean training and I was in the forty what was sent on leave and we was going to the Sherwood Foresters in Germany, and they gave us a leave like, well it was a fortnight they gave us, but I got a telegram after a week: report back to the barracks, Lincoln for posting to Warwick for Korea. Well when we got to Warwick you see for the Korean training, the lads what we, you know, had gone there they was going to Korea anyway, they was all cheering and shout [laugh], you know, they thought oh lads, it serves you right you buggers like that. Of course we were all trained you know, I went through bloody murder there, didn’t half put it, I mean they put ‘em through it today, but they did, we went to Wales, up to North Wales there, bloody [unclear] up them mountains, full packs and everything, wet through, you know and the sergeants shouting, bawling at you, but I’m kidding you but when you got to the top you couldn’t have done nowt, if a bloody bloke had come and pushed you you’d have fell back, hard out and that was it, but that’s what you went through, in’t it.
MC: Yeah.
CL: We did all live hand grenades, there was big boxes them days, with about thirty in I think, thirty six mils grenade they was and they was all lathered thick with grease, you know, and of course the sergeants they were, knew what was on ‘em, take the mickey out of you. Two apiece lads he said and clean ‘em up and if you’ve left specks on back they don’t go off! The buggers they, rubbing like hell, you know, you would do, you [unclear]. When we’d done it they’d look at ‘em like and say they’re all reet. But he put the charges in you see, cause they’re very ticklish, You screwed the baseplate up and put the hammer down with the pin through and then you took it out, the base plug and put the charge in, it was so long and you had to get hold on it, not the actual part at the bottom, the wire type like, and put it in like that and then screw the cap back up tight, you know, and then it was ready for throwing you know. When we’d done that like, it was right get in that trench they said, they’d forty gallon drums about thirty, forty yards away, you know, and they said we want you to drop ‘em in there if you can, you know, somewhere. Anyway it come to my turn like, he said prepare to throw and when he said that you pulled the pin out, throw the bugger down, you see, throw, and then like that and then he said throw, and when you let go that was it, it shot off and the fuse went off you’d about five seconds. Well I got straight down and the sergeant got hold of me and get your bloody head up and start counting! Cause you had to count to about four, then he says get down and didn’t have the base plug, it always went backwards, the base plug and it was like a metal, you know, and you could hear it go over you, if it hit you like it would go through you, aye. That was the first’n you know I chucked like, but after that I always got down, you know, it, oh it was an experience and that was it.
MC: So when, going back to Berlin, I’m just interested in, you saw Berlin obviously Bomber Command did a lot of raids in Berlin
CL: Oh ay.
MC: I just wondered how much had been rebuilt or what?
CL: Oh there was some rebuilt, but a lot of it was like, I reckon, I told you, we went to Hamburg on a fortnight’s course, but that was from Goslar, you see when we first went to Germany we was the foot of the Harz mountains and it was an ex-Luftwaffe fighter base, you know, the mountains was here like that and half of Goslar was on the hill and half in a flat like and then of course you got the airfield you know and we went there first, and then we did two year there and that’s when they moved us to Berlin. Well we left Goslar at eleven o’clock at night the train, cause we had to go through the Russian sector you see. We was only about two mile out on it anyway.
MC: I was going to ask how you got in to Berlin. By train was it.
CL: So we went you know, round the mountains, and through Leipzig I think it was, the train stopped at different stations, but it said, the bloke, sergeant told us don’t lift the blinds up. I did, I said to my mate, I’ll have a look here, pulled up. I reckon it was Leipzig or somewhere and there was an East German copper on the platform, I think they wore a green uniform and the West German had blue like, anyway he looked but didn’t say owt like, and I dropped it again and we got to Berlin Spandau station at oh, let’s see, about seven o’clock in the morning, we started eleven at night, was a long way, you know cause we went round the mountains you see. When we got there, the CO, Lieutenant Colonel Wilson, he was injured bad in the war, and he had a, his back I think, mostly, he used to, he could walk round like, but he was always bit you know, but if we was going any distance he’d have a jeep. But he didn’t this time, they lined the battalion up like, he had the band there, it was a cracking band the Lincolns was, you know, and off we went, we had about a mile from Spandau station to the barracks like, and he marched in front of us, all the way you know, and the band got all their skins on you know, and Jerries was there, it was about half past seven that was, going through the streets you see, looking out the window, don’t know what they thought like. But he did it though, lad did, yeah.
MC: Yes, so you did three years, in, as National Service, well you signed on for three years did you.
CL: Yeah. Well as I say I was going to come out but with mother being that and dad suffering, you know, not too good yeah, and that was it like, and then I worked on the gravel pit for forty year, driving that thing in the corner there, on the photo, [laughter] sommat similar. They was hard work they was.
MC: That’s a picture of a Bucyrus crane is it?
CL: Yeah. Bucyrus. Yeah, but you know, well that wan’t too bad, it was air control, you got the short levers, but the old fashioned ones we had for the start for donkey’s years, the levers was like arms, you shove ‘em in and out, hard work like, now, you know, which you want it to be, they just touch a lever don’t they and what have you. Aye, that airfield though, don’t know if I tell you, when Mrs Foster see them bombs, that was it! You know, she was oop, sign this mate, [laughter]
[Other]: Wasn’t going to hang about!
CL: And that was it like.
[Other]: Was the airspace round the [unclear] active, was there aircraft all the time?
CL: Oh aye. Sometimes, would it be after D-Day, they was coming back in daylight, in morning, and coming back there were bloody lumps out their wings, bits out the tail you know, engines stopped, cause they’ve got landing lights all round here, you know they put ’em up didn’t they later in the war, and they used to go right round didn’t they, in a circle, give them a bit of an idea I think and if they was going to land this way in, from this way like, which they did sometimes, they was shooting those red flares out and I suppose they’d bring ‘em down first would they, they got wounded I should think on board, you know, but you know, as I say the engines stopped and bits out of the wing or tail, you know, flak I should think, I don’t know.
MC: Yeah. Fighter attack anything like that.
CL: But you knew a chap didn’t you flew from there, didn’t you, what flew from there? He was air gunner won’t he?
[Other]: No, he was an engineer.
CL: Engineer was he. Well he was at the side of the pilot wan’t he. I was looking at that one at East Kirkby you know, there was nowt to see it, where flight engineer was, it was only a little square bit, wan’t it, and drop it down, no lap room was there.
MC: Not a lot of room, no not very comfortable.
CL: They must have been tired when they come back, I mean Berlin must have been what eight hour run there and back, must have been tired, you know wan’t they. You know, well pilot he’s got an armour plate han’t he at the back. Oh no, Berlin, oh I was going to tell you. I went on a course for a fortnight, to Hamburg, that was [unclear] I told you didn’t I. In the middle, I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, since like, but in the middle of the city there’s this big well, like Lincoln is, but a lot bigger, a lake, you know and along there I’ve never seen so much brick rubble in my life, thousands and thousands of tons they took, you know, they really hammered that, they must have done. but on the outskirts where we was, it was hardly touched, you know, the outskirts of it, but it was really gave it some, thumped it.
MC: So they must have been pretty accurate with the bombing.
CL: I bet it was. Mind you, look what they did to London, you know. Thirteen weeks wan’t they, continual bombing, so they say, you know.
[Other]: The blitz.
CL: Aye. We used to go over there regular like, just to watch ‘em. One, it was a light night after D-Day it was about six or seven, maybe eight queuing up like, and then they just stopped and stopped the engines, and they were all seemed to sat in their planes for quite a while, so whatever happened I don’t know. But they stopped the lot like, you know, for a reason, they must have done, cause normally they just ticked over, didn’t they, till the time was right like, so they must, we cleared off then like, and well they wan’t moving and that was it like. But they must have gone later on. Probably sommat wrong was there.
MC: Probably cancelled the operation or something stopped them taking off, maybe an aircraft stopped on the end of the runway.
CL: Yes. They lost a lot of men here though didn’t they.
MC: Yeah.
CL: I read sommat about, not so long ago they dropped the biggest bomb loads from here didn’t they, in the war.
MC: They dropped most [unclear].
CL: During the war.
MC: I think they held some of the records amount of bombs dropped.
CL; I was going to say sommat like that I read.
[Other]: Did you ever meet any of the aircrew off the airfield?
CL: No, that one, only that one what cleared us off like, that one bloke you know when we told him about the fellers, hop it you don’t realise do you, you know. I mean you don’t sort of take it to, do you, you know.
MC: Cause at that age you wouldn’t have got in to any of the pubs anyway, to meet them.
CL: The huts, I don’t know if you knew where they was, where the non-commisioned officers was. Sergeant pilots and navigators, do you know where they was?
MC: No.
CL: You know, do you know when you go where, now then, it’s where, did you know where the old guardroom was? Opposite that lane, where you used to go down that path, well on the right hand side going that way, now, you know, to Lincoln, that was the huts there, and there was sergeant navigators and non-commissioned officers. Officers was farther up on the right cause you could see ‘em through the window playing snooker and that like, you know until the sergeant moved us off like. Cause he was, well the guardroom was there you see, and there’s always somebody on that. But we used to go in there because sometimes they was kicking a ball about, you know, when they wan’t flying and have a bit of a do with them like. I can remember, all them years ago, but I can remember once when I was there, playing, having a kick, they went on the speaker horn aircrew report to the whatever it is, you know, briefing room like, and of course they all cleared off then what was fliers like, you know, and I see them go out that night like you see, you know. All them years ago though, don’t it seem queer. Sometimes I forget things and yet I can remember that. Queer innit? You know.
MC: Well, I think that’s, that’s pretty good, thanks, Colin, that was a great interview and thank you very much for talking to me.
CL: Ah I don’t, yeah well, there was, bloke landed the Lancaster, he must have come back for some reason with his load on. In the morning it was stood in the field, you know where that restaurant is now, it was a field then of course, just a little dyke and a fence, and he’d come back with his load, and we didn’t know like, but he’d gone through the bloody crash gates, and over the road and through the fence and finished up, in, it was ploughed up a bit there at that time, that field and then the ploughing you know, and that’s where it was, course lads you see off they went, when we see it, they nearly got there, and of course there’s an RAF chap on guard, you know, and said, we said sommat, go on hop it lads he said, the bugger’s still loaded up well he was stood there so if it had gone up he would have gone up and all, that was his job wan’t it like, he cleared us off like, you know. Then another time we happened to be down there looking over the crash gate and the one came in from Lincoln way, whether it was doing an air test or sommat I don’t know, anyway, he came in to land and he touched down and he hadn’t been down two three minutes and bloody great bang and his tyre busted and it chucked him, I’m not kidding you, it went like that it did, he couldn’t hold it I think, fair bit of speed on that, he’d only just touched down, and of course he went on the grass so far and then stopped. The tyre was busted like. It was maybe doing air test cause they did they, they used to take off and go round and land in again didn’t they, you know. Oh aye, did you know about them bombs, stick of bombs what dropped down there. Well just before you get to the wood where that house, old house was, they dropped three I think, one night, Jerries. One landed in the field on the left hand side as you’re going down there, another one dropped half way on the road, blew half the road up and half the dyke, and the other one went over the wood, and a land mine it was, and they dropped and just over the wood like, and course it went up, and the landmine, oh hell of a, hell of a big hole and a lot of clay, you know, a lot of clay in the land there.
[Other]: Was that on [unclear]
CL: Aye, them first two was, yeah, cause I can remember ‘em filling that one up, it took half the road up.
MC: That was the crossroads.
CL: Yeah. No, ordinary road like, just before you get to where the bomb dump was, furthest away, end of that wood there, then you get a bit of a field don’t you, and it blew half the road up and half the dyke. Well they filled it up with all sorts: bricks and tins and you know what have you. But the other one in the field it, I don’t know what they did with that, but the other was a land mine and it went over the wood towards the Whisby side, do you get me, over the top and it was solid clay, well it put this place in here, in the war, you know, well it was dropped at night, wouldn’t it dop, you reckon they would be aiming for the [unclear] bomb dump? Well they wasn’t far off it, was they?
[Other]: Bomb dump.
CL: Wasn’t far off it was they. Bloody hell.
[Other]: They’d have had the airfield mapped out.
CL: Yeah. I mean, but, if it had gone, well the bomb dump well I don’t know would have blown the whole lot up wouldn’t it? Ain’t there some places now in the wood?
[Other]: Yeah.
CL: You know as you go down the bypass. What are they? Toilets, or just sheds?
MC: There’s bits of the bomb dump still there.
CL: Oh is there?
MC: Yeah, RAF Sculthorpe, yeah, bits of the bomb dump still there.
[Other]: Some air raid shelters, flash pens, all the roads, the concrete roads still there.
CL: Oh I could tell you another thing, I don’t know if you’re interested. When, when we was at Goslar I got one leave, well, some of them had two, I only had one, anyway we used to catch the train from Goslar to Hanover, then get the main line one from Brunswick to Hook of Holland, you know, leave train, and we was going towards Bielefeld they called it, or Biedefield one of the two.
MC: Bielefeld.
CL: The army prison was there, British Army, you know, anyway [chuckle] we was going in to there from Goslar and the other line was coming from the Ruhr, you know the valley as they called it, and there’s a big viaduct there, you’d have heard about it dozens of times, they bombed it and they couldn’t hit it, could they, well the holes right on the, the holes was there if you get me, round it, but they’d all grassed over, but you could see where they’d hit it, they hit it with a Tallboy didn’t they?
MC: That’s the Bielefeld Viaduct, yes.
CL: Yeah. It made quite a - have you seen it, did you see it?
MC: I’ve seen pictures of it.
CL: Well it made quite a big hole in it, one of Barnes Wallis’ little Tallboys, you know, like they dropped on that ship, whatever it was.
[Other]: Tirpitz.
CL: Yeah. But as I say, all the bomb holes was round, you could tell where the bombs had dropped like, you know, they was grassed over like, you know. Cause it used to come from the Ruhr valley I think, like Essen and all that, cause we went all through them, you see on the train, Essen, it was flattened, that Krupps factory, but do you know, I’m not lying, there was a hell [emphasis] of a chimney stack stuck up, and all round it was flat, rubble, and it was still stood up, aye, at that time, yeah. Well they’d take it down, no doubt because it’d be dangerous wan’t it but, really marvellous wan’t it, you know, all flat round it, massive factory all run up the side of the railway, you know, hell of a factory, aye. But Berlin though, I mean, I know they hammered it, but, I told you about them cemeteries, didn’t I, lot of RAF blokes there, cause we used to from Spandau on the tram, down from Spandau to the main part of Berlin to the picture house and the NAAFI, and there was a sort of a subway of a bit and of course there was a cemetery there, it was war graves commission then like, but got stones up, but it said RAF on some of them, well all of them, but there was names to some, but some had just got RAF Unknown you know, so they would find them. But like I told you, the Germans looked after it, when we was there, they had our uniforms these chaps what was, British Army uniforms, but they’d got GSO on here stands for sommat, what it was I don’t know, they were dyed black if you get me, instead of our colour, they’d dyed ‘em all, but they used to work for the army I think, you know cause when I was at Goslar they used to drive cars about and that for us, you know cause we had to walk, when we wanted to go into town, we had to walk about two miles from Goslar, from where we were like, and they used to stop pick you up like, they wan’t, you know didn’t seem to hold it against you, mind you they were getting money wan’t they, working you know, pick us up and take us in to town like, or if you was coming back take you back to camp like. I’ll tell you, you’ll maybe not be interested but we used to go on route marches and we went to Belsen, we used to go through Belsen you know, that was a village like, before you got there, rough old roads they was, rough as hell they were, like bloody great stones in the muck, you know, when you got off the good road, like. And there was a place there where scrap, where, scrap, must have been because they was engines, railway engines they’d holes in them all over, but there were dozens and dozens on this here line you know, waiting to be took and broke up I think. Well they were shot up like, bloody great holes in the side of the boilers and all sorts like, aye, they’d hammered it a bit like, didn’t them Typhoons used to go for ‘em, aye, shoved a rocket in ‘em see.
MC: Did a lot of damage.
CL: Oh I don’t know, you’d maybe not want to know, but I told you I think, it was operational for a start, wasn’t it, Wigsley cause took the Hampdens from here, they went to Wigsley, but before they finished it - we lived at that Spalford at that time you see, was only just up the road - there was the, can you remember them, Airspeed Oxfords, trainers they was. Well before they done the airfield they was training blokes you know, cause they’d done the runway and they didn’t take much runway, so they’d land in, and then cut off and come back and keep going round and round, do you get me, and that like, and there was a big drain at yon end, Spalford end, big dyke, you know, massive, and when the Hampdens went away it went to one of the training units off of operations, on to training, you know, and there was Lancs there, well one overshot the dyke, they went off the runway and plonked on this here big dyke, you know, course off we went, two three of us, there’s more of us there like, before we got there, you could smell, nobody there there wan’t like, the door was off, and it smelt of petrol. The first thing you could see when the door of this Lancaster, you know where they got in, that time, that one, I don’t know if later time, was the toilet, they had one didn’t they, but it was dead like you know, opposite the door they jumped out, it was theer, but you know, it stunk of petrol like, and there’s nobody about, so they’d overshot I think and then gone back to whatever and then afore that one, the, an Hampden, he overshot there as well and we did get in that. Well, there’s nobody about! The bloody hood was back, it slid back, didn’t it, you know, and the seat, I’m not kidding you, it was like the old fashioned bus seat, double, you know, and then there was a big steps down to the front wan’t there, you know, didn’t open up to ‘em much like, then the thin body, wan’t there. I don’t think there was a gunner at the back was there, not on there.
[Other]: There was yeah, upper and lower.
CL: Ah! Under neath, ah, they was like under. And you know we did get a look in that, a real good look like and then we cleared off like.
MC: Didn’t get any souvenirs then?
CL: No way, never thought of that, they smelt of petrol, or they would do wouldn’t they. We cleared off and got away with it. But there was a mill, when they built the runway facing over there, like that one came across here didn’t it, that one at Wigsley, there was an old mill at Spalford as you went in, you know the old fashioned mill and it was smack in line with the runway. Well you know when they thought it out, you’d have thought they’d have thought of that, wouldn’t you? Anyway I think the pilots complained, I don’t know and they took it down in the end, cause when they went OTU is it, training in unit, there was Lancasters there and all sorts going round, you know aye, and, aye bit of history to it in’t there.
MC: There is.
CL: Well I hope I’ve helped you a bit anyway.
MC: You used to go, get on the train and go down to the French NAAFI club.
CL: Yeah.
MC: That was when you was in Berlin.
CL: Yes, cause I had my birthday, twenty first birthday down there, there was a few of us went. We used to go on the rail car, you know, like the train, but you know the, like underground, but it wan’t, you didn’t go under it, and we used to go down on that from where we was about there and then get back on at night. And we was like [unclear] when we come out. We got on the station like and I said we want to go yon side, we want to be otherwise we shall be in the Russian Zone we go the other. Oh no, no, you know who they are don’t you, oh I said all right and we went to other side, no we stopped where we was, that’s it, and the train came in and we was going to get on and credit to him, to him, this Jerry, he was a guard or sommat like, oh no not that way! Ruski, Ruski, you know. [Laughter] We got out of there, I’ve been telling you now, we had to cross over, we wanted other side you see, to get back and that. But credit due to ‘im. Well one or two of them did go over into the Russian Sector, by mistake, and they kept them about three weeks, you see, oh aye, didn’t do nowt to ‘em, they just locked ‘em up I think. Well I said to ‘em, I said, I bloody told you we didn’t want to be there.
[Other]: Splendid person. Good days of twenty one [unclear].
CL: Twenty one, fancy having it there, where Adolf used to be. Aye, I don’t I can tell you much else mate.
MC: Thanks once again for that Colin, that’s great, thank very much for your time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Colin Lloyd
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALloydC180823
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:03:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Lloyd was born in 1933 in Torksey, Lincolnshire. He recalls hearing Mr. Chamberlain’s broadcast on Sunday 3rd September 1939. His father got a job in 1942 at the gravel pits near Whisby and they moved to that area. Colin describes being close to RAF Skellingthorpe and watching aircraft taking off and landing. On one occasion the airfield was bombed by two Ju 88’s. He also recalls when an aircraft failed to remain airborne after taking off, crashed back down, and exploded. As a young boy, he often went exploring around the edge of the airfield with his friends. They also saw bombers flying overhead towards Europe on operations.
After the war, he got a job at the gravel pits as a crane driver. He completed part of his National Service in Berlin during 1954 and was based in the Spandau Jail where Rudolf Hess and Albert Speer were held. He describes the damage to Berlin caused by the Russians and allied bombing. Colin also recalls visits he made to Belsen, the Bielefeld viaduct, and the Berlin Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
1953
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
Ju 88
Lancaster
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Sculthorpe
RAF Wigsley
Tallboy