1
25
24
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/132/1289/PTempleL1501.1.jpg
ef9ac290edf3a9346f92c6236f7c4df3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/132/1289/ATempleL151027.1.mp3
7e68bfdea2e63e23d0c117e0dcb60971
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Temple, Leslie
Leslie Temple
L Temple
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview and one warrant related to Warrant Officer Leslie Temple (b. 1925, 1893650 Royal Air Force). The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Leslie Temple and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound. Oral history
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Temple, L
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Yes we are, we’re ready to go. Okay, this is, we’re ready to start. The machine’s running I think. Yes okay, so this is Andrew Sadler interviewing Les Temple, Mr. Leslie Temple, at his home in Ilford on Tuesday the 27th of September 2015 for the Bomber Command Archive. Thank you very much for allowing us to interview you Les.
LT: Good.
AS: Can I start by asking you about your date and place of birth?
LT: My birth date is 12th of January 1925 you see. Now I was born in the East End of London, and I had an older – my parents who – my father had come from Poland when he was fourteen and my mother as a young baby when she was born, she came over to England with her mother, and my parents had my brother Arthur. He was four years older than me, Arthur, and he went into the Army. When the war started, he was conscripted into the Army and in 1941 he was sent to France and there lo and behold in France, he was captured and made a prisoner of war. He was a prisoner of war for four years [emphasis] in Germany, and there’s quite a bit of history in his name obviously. But in the meantime, whilst he was away I reached conscription age and living in the East End of London at that particular time – when I was born, I was born and my brother was a bit older [emphasis] than me, so he didn’t sort of used to do the same, same things [laughs] together. He went into the services and then we moved at the beginning of the war to Leyton [emphasis], E10, and from there I was conscripted at the age of eighteen and I was conscripted for the RAF because I had spent four years in the Air Training Core [emphasis]. I was in the Air Training Core, I was conscripted, and in effect I was happy to be going into the RAF and for air, aircrew duties. And I went in initially as a radio operator, wireless operator and in that time, before that time I had been at school in Leyton, E10, at which I was sorted out there because I was always receiving first place in class – and my father was a tailor, and in effect he [laughs] couldn’t afford for me to go on to higher sort of class, school when I reached the age of fourteen and he, I had to go to work. But the fact was, is that I had my school reports there [laughs] of which I have first place in every one, and in that respect the school wanted me to go onto higher school, Leyton County High School, and, but my father I’m afraid in this respect he wasn’t earning much as a tailor and he couldn’t afford for me to go on in school, and I had to go to work. And strangely enough my first job was for the London County Council, Mr. Charles Leyton who I worked for in the office when I left school at the age of fourteen, he was the principle of the London County Council [emphasis]. So he took me into the London County Council and I was worked, worked there for a couple of years. And I found that I couldn’t earn enough to satisfy my parents who it was rather shame that they, you know, things weren’t all that good in those days in the, in the tailoring trade and so on and so forth. So it went on that I found various jobs to improve my mode of being able to live and earn money and I went into the insurance business [emphasis], and I started at a pretty young age in the insurance business, learning the office work and so on and so forth, and then I went into, into the Air Force because the war started and I was taken in as a radio operator, and in effect I had joined the Air Training Core during that period, and I was four years [emphasis] in the Air Training Core, which I did, did quite well, and as you can see here, the history is even in here about me being in the Air Training Core, and they decided it would be good for me to go in as a radio operator into, into the RAF.
AS: Why did you originally go into the Air Training Core, what inspired you?
LT: Well it inspired me because my brother [emphasis] was going to be conscripted in the Army, and I felt that I was capable of handling the things required in the, in the RAF, and I was pretty good at the Morse code and one thing and another in the Air Training Core, and so I applied to, to go into the RAF, and that’s how I was conscripted at that particular time for the RAF. And in effect [paper shuffles] let me see now [continued shuffling, pause]. Ooh, yes [shuffling, pause]. [Reading]: ‘confounding the enemy, the RAF Jewish Special Operators of 101 Squadron, Bomber Command.’ Now in the RAF I was, I did all the examinations and so, learnt the Morse code pretty quickly and so on, and as it got in the book here, [reading]: ‘much of the history of the secret telecommunication of war, against the Germans during the Second World War is still classified and shrouded in mystery, including the radio countermeasures of RAF Squadron 101.’ Now –
AS: So you were in 101?
LT: I was in 101 Squadron you see. Now 101 was a particular – [reading]: ‘it was a great history of the advancement made of telecommunications in the RAF because we were using the special Morse code details for confounding the enemy and also learning what they were transmitting, and we’ – the normal – I went, I went into various [emphasis] stations – I’ll show you, just a moment [pause, papers shuffle]. Well I had it here before, it’s all down here. [Reading]: ‘confounding the enemy in the RAF Jewish [unclear] 101,’ right. Right, my number was 1893650, would you like to make a note [?]. [Pause, continued shuffling].
AS: Good, carry on.
LT: Now, as it says here, [reading]: ‘1893650, Flight Sergeant Leslie Temple, born in 1925 to Jane and Solomon in Stepney, joined the RAF in January 1943 aged eighteen, but has served in the Air Training Core from the age of fourteen. He received initial air training at Bridgnorth in Shropshire, on De Havilland Dominies and Proctors. Radio training at Madley, acclimatisation on B17s at Sculthorpe in Norfolk and a Lancaster Conversion Course at Lindholme in Yorkshire, before being sent as a full flight sergeant aged nineteen to join 101 Squadron.’ I don’t know whether you’ve heard of 101 before, have you?
AS: No, not really.
LT: No, well – [reading]: ‘to join 101 Squadron at Ludford. He’d learnt German at school and spoke fluent Yiddish at home.’ Well you know Yiddish was the language which the foriegn Jews used when they came to London. They couldn’t speak English properly so they were able to speak easily to each other. [Reading]: ‘but the SO work was so secret that they had no idea until he arrived at Ludford,’ – I arrived at Ludford Magna, that was the station that I arrived at. They used to call it not Ludford but Mudford [laughs] it was so, so bad. [Reading]: ‘until he arrived at Ludford why he’d been sent there. He completed thirty missions between 22nd of June against the Reims Marshalling Yard and 28th of October 1944, Cologne.’ So I did my air operations between 22nd of June and 28th of October 1944, on Cologne.[Reading]: ‘other raids from his still prized logbook including Essen, Frankfurt, V1 [?] sites, through concentrations after D-Day, Cahagnes [?], Hamburg and Sholven. Special operators worked intensely on the journeys out and home for several hours, but over the target could only watch. Once the bombers were near the target, it was obvious to the enemy where they were going, so jamming [?] was superfluous.’ When you got near the target you stopped jamming [?] you see, only when you was coming to the target and listening, listening into what the Germans were saying. [Reading]: ‘Leslie Temple explained that the rear gunner in Able ABC Lancasters,’ ABC is you know, Airborne Cigar, that’s ABC – ‘had heavier machine guns than usual because the planes were particularly vulnerable transmitting over enemy bombers.’ Now did you see a thing, Lancaster Bomb, Lancaster Bombers –
AS: Yes.
LT: Ah it’s under, under this book there.
AS: Yeah.
LT: You see now, Lancaster Bombers – the compliment for a crew for a Lancaster was seven, a long was seven. But 101 was the only squadron that had eight [emphasis], and we had eight because we were a special aircrew, squadron which was trans, doing the special operators work, interfering with what the Germans were transmitting to their fighters and so on. Now, the fact that I had a knowledge of the German language , the fact that I had a knowledge of the German language made me that eighth member of the crew, because when I was, when I went to, what’s her name at the beginning, my first squadron at Ludford – I, I had this crew, I joined the crew which I joined because it was time they arrived and I arrived you see, to make up the eighth, eighth member. I did six operations with them, but the skipper, he used to mess about with ladies and so on and so forth, and what happened was he, the crew was disarmed and so on, and taken off [emphasis]. And there was I, left at Ludford without a crew [emphasis]. And I, I had done six operations with them. Well when I was there on my own it was lucky for me that Eric Neilson came in with his crew, and he had seven members of his crew who came to Ludford Magna, to 101, to start operations. So they said to me ‘right, you join him as a special operator.’ Now aircraft in 101, their machine guns were point five. The normal machine gun in a Lancaster and aircraft used by the RAF were 303s. We had heavier machine guns in 101, and it was a wonderful reason that we had [laughs] point fives, because they were very useful on many occasions, and I joined them as a special operator. Now I don’t know whether you know, the Lancaster was converted to a special operation aircraft because when you got into a Lancaster, behind the door on a normal Lancaster was a bed. Well on our Lancasters, 101 Squadron, the bed was taken out and the place was made for the special operators. I had my recording equipment and my equipment to listen, listen in to the German transmissions, and I could hear the German language and I could understand what was going on, and I would transmit that to my skipper when anything was happening that was useful to us. And so we had eight in the crew. Our Lancaster was converted from seven individuals to eight [emphasis], and I was the special operator, and the whole [emphasis] squadron was this way. We all had eight in the crew [phone rings]. Oh, excuse me a minute, is that –
[Tape paused and restarted].
AS: Okay, do carry on.
LT: Right, now I was up to this question – what, have you been over this question of why we had eight, eight members?
AS: Yes.
LT: You’ve been over this, and where they were situated and so on –
AS: Yep.
LT: And so forth. Now where were we up to –
AS: You just told me that.
LT: Yeah. Now when, when I had got my crew, Eric Neilson came in and I joined them. I had done six operations, you see when – you know the tour was at thirty, you were supposed to do up to thirty you see, so I did twenty-three with them, which is in my logbook and, for you to see, and in effect, we were getting on extremely well. I was, you know made[laughs], made right for them, but I couldn’t do the full tour that they were doing, you see. They would have to do the thirty and I would only have to do twenty-three to do. And in effect this, this situation developed where I did the twenty-three with them and I had to come off because I done thirty. I did six and I did another one with another crew, just one, to finish off my thirty [emphasis]. And Eric Neilson had to get another operator you see, so in effect as it says here in this history, that we got on very well together, we had a number of difficult situations to do, but the worst operation we had was on a raid on Kiel [emphasis], where we went to Kiel [papers shuffle]. We took off from Ludford just before midnight, at twenty-three fifty-five for the heavily defended German naval base at Kiel. The Lancaster was blown slightly off course over the North Sea so the bomb aimer had to ask that they, that they fly round for a second time over the target to ensure accuracy, which was always extremely hazardous. As we did not jam [?] over the actual target, I could watch everything from the astrodome. I used to go into the astrodome when we reached the target area, because I had to come off my, my equipment and we started doing our bombing [emphasis], and dropping, and dropping the bombs you see, and as it says here: [reading]: ‘there was a solid curtain burst and hellish flak, wall of searchlights across the sky. Other bombers all around waiting to release their bombs, and predatory German night fighters spitting canon fire. Finally we dropped our bombs on target, but were suddenly nailed by a master searchlight on the way out. Immediately, a dozen others combed us at twenty thousand feet.’ All these other searchlights, we got on a master searchlight caught us in its [laughs] light and the other searchlights came on and we were combed at twenty thousand feet. [Reading]: ‘extremely German flak opened up and we were scarred with shrapnel which simply passed through the airframe, over our two port engines and burst into flames. I feared the worst as I could not bail out over the North Sea at night.’ We were over the North Sea and we had these two engines caught [laughs] fire. [Reading]: ‘our quick thinking Canadian skipper, Eric Neilson, who was given the DFC from this operation, nose a Lancaster down and pulled out of the beam at five thousand feet. The pillar and flight engineer, the pilot [emphasis] and flight engineer managed to extinguish the flames over the North Sea using the internal extinguishers, and despite no power from the directional equipment because of the two cut engines, our skilled navigator used’ –. Now this is – he, our navigatior, he always carried a sextant. You know what a sextant is, for direction and so on and so forth, and [reading]: ‘stars trying to get us home on two engines. We crash landed at Ludford in Lincolnshire and our back at our aerodrome, a special crash landing base at about four a.m. with over a hundred [emphasis] holes in the Lancaster.’ We had over a hundred holes in it, and er – [reading]: ‘after debriefing, I laid on my bed and could not stop shaking for twelve hours. The MO said the best cure was simply to get back up again soon and of course we did.’ No counselling in those days, so that was a pretty difficult situation, which we [laughs], we got, we came back on two engines and crash landed [laughs] and so on and so forth. Now tell, I’ll tell you something that we haven’t written down. The way to get your wheels down in a Lancaster was through hydraulic tanks. Now, if you were out too long, or else [?] they were punctured, the tanks then you couldn’t get your wheels down. The only way you could get down was you had to crash land. So we couldn’t get our wheels down when we got back to our base [emphasis] and the pilot said to us ‘right boys, you’ve got to go and do business [laughs] to pee, to pee in the tanks, the hydraulic tanks.’ So we had to go and pee in the hydraulic tanks, and we managed to get sufficient water to get the wheels down, you know, and that was the only way we could get down safely [emphasis] by doing that. And we just [emphasis] got down, you know, it was a tremendous situation otherwise we were going to have to crash, crash land without any wheels you see, and that was, that thing on Kiel. And that really, on the 23rd of July 1944 was the worst possible trip that we had, and in my thirty operations that was the – because we got shot up and we had, you know, all the situations that developed, being involved with the Germans at that time, but anyway, we managed, managed okay. So is that quite clear to you?
AS: How many more trips did you have to do after that? Where was that in the –
LT: Er –
AS: In the order of them?
LT: That [papers shuffle] that was my twenty-third [emphasis] operation that was.
AS: So you got another seven to do?
LT: Another seven to do, yeah. And you know, it was very, very close. After serving in 101 I was told to take a long leave and thereafter working as ground crew, and [long pause] –
AS: So, so you did your thirty and after that you worked on the ground. You didn’t have to do anymore?
LT: I didn’t have to do anymore, no.
AS: Right.
LT: I worked on the ground –
AS: ‘Cause I read some people had to do another thirty and then –
LT: Oh well that is if you did a straight [emphasis] thirty you weren’t forced [emphasis] to go do a second operation, operational trip. They asked [emphasis] you if you wanted to go you could go, and you found a suitable crew you could go. But I’m afraid that doing thirty trips in a Lancaster at that particular time [laughs] it, it didn’t sit, make you want to go back and have another go [laughs], I can tell you that much.
AS: Were there many people who did thirty, I mean, I mean it was incredibly dangerous wasn’t it?
LT: Oh yes, oh yes.
AS: You must have lost a lot of comrades on the way.
LT: Well, I lost my best pal in the Air Force, a boy named Jack Whitely. We were on a raid going out, and we were circling off the coast, off the English coast, waiting to go out when we saw an explosion in the sky, and what happened was two aircraft had collided because when you were going out, you went to the coast and you all got into your positions. There might have been three or four hundred aircraft, but you all had certain times where you would take off for your target you see, which would put you in a certain position. Well, at some times you got there a little early, you couldn’t go, go off for your operation, so you had to wait. All you’d do is you’d go round and round and round, you see, waiting for your time to come up while you went on operation. Well, at times you were very, very close to other aircraft, especially at night and they were very much a number of collisions. And Jack, real name Jack Whitely who I went through radio school and everything, and as a matter of fact I’ve got information here from his family. They wrote to me, I think it’s in that file there. They wrote to me and you know, because Jack and I we used to be, go to each other’s homes and so on and so forth when we were on leave, and he got killed. They fished him out the, fished him out the sea. And this is the sort of life you had in the Air Force. You didn’t know where you – you made friends but you didn’t know what was going to happen on your next, on your next, next trip.
AS: Your thirty trips, how far, how far apart were they?
LT: Thirty – well in the winter they were further apart than in the, in the summer. A lot depended on, on the weather. I did my, my thirty took me about what, four, four, about five months it took me, yeah. And sometimes it took much longer, it took seven or eight months, and in the summer, if we were completely in the summer weather, well you were that much better off [laughs] as far as getting down quicker. But a lot of boys went back and did second, second tours. But I found myself that getting through one tour was heavy enough.
AS: You’d had your luck, and you were sticking with it.
LT: Yes, definitely [emphasis], definitely.
AS: So when you, then you became ground crew. What did you do with the ground crew, as a ground crew?
LT: Well, when I went back on ground crew I was teaching other boys, you know, carrying on, on various squadrons to teach other boys what you learnt when you [emphasis] were flying, and that’s, that’s what I did, and it, it was 1944 and we were getting towards the end [laughs] of things then. We were finding things that promised, made, we made promises [emphasis] to finish, finish the war then and it, it was a great life at the time because I’d never been abroad when I went into the Air Force. I’d never been abroad or anything like that, and it was a totally, totally different life. And since then it’s been seventy, seventy years [emphasis], seventy years since –
AS: Hmm.
LT: Finishing a tour.
AS: When you did the ground, when you were with the ground crew, was, where were you stationed then? Was that still in Lincolnshire?
LT: Oh yes, yes, Lincolnshire. I think I got [papers shuffle] something here [long pause]. Got here, [reading]: ‘there was little doubt that outside the small circle of 101 Squadron veterans, few knew, few know the important dangerous work of the special [emphasis] operators and their Lancaster crew comrades. Less still, the role of the Jewish SOs,’ special operators, ‘it is to be hoped that this study will bring deserved, if belated recognition to this brave band of brothers.’ Now where did I – [papers shuffle, long pause], hmm.
AS: So how long were you – was it ‘til you were demobilised at the end?
LT: What come off aircrew?
AS: Yes. I mean when you, when you left the RAF, when was that?
LT: I left the – well I was, what, in the RAF nineteen, nineteen, what – just a minute I’ll give you the details, are just here [papers shuffle, long pause]. Hmm, excuse me, looking this up. [Long pause] 24th [?] 1944 [long pause]. [Reading]: ‘from October 1943, Squadron 101 flew two thousand, four hundred and seventy-seven sorties with Airborne Cigar from Ludford Magna. They dropped sixteen thousand tonnes of bombs between January 1944 and April 1945 alone [emphasis], and flew more bombing raids than any other Lancaster squadron in Group 1, losing one thousand and ninety-four crew killed and a hundred and seventy-eight prisoners of war.’ Now, we lost more individuals in our squadron than any other RAF squadron –
AS: Mm.
LT: You know. [Reading]: ‘the highest causalities of any squadron in the RAF,’ 101 Squadron. It’s a good thing for you to have noted. [Reading]: ‘it dropped sixteen thousand tonnes of bombs between January forty-four and April forty-five, and flew more bombing raids than any other, than any other Lancaster squadron in Group 1.’
AS: Hmm.
LT: Yeah. [Reading]: ‘losing one thousand and ninety-four crew and a hundred and seventy-eight were prisoners of war. The highest casualties of any squadron in the RAF.’ It, we were a tough, a tough squadron.
AS: So what date did you, were you demobilised from the RAF?
LT: What date –
AS: Yes.
LT: Did I, excuse me [papers shuffle, long pause]. Well I finished my tour 23rd October forty-four. Now [papers shuffle]. Now, 28th of October forty-four – I started operations [continued shuffling] in June forty-four to October forty-four. That’s when, that’s my whole –
AS: That’s from your logbook.
LT: Yeah.
AS: But when did you actually leave the RAF?
LT: The RAF was in, in forty, forty-five I think. I can’t –
AS: Did you leave immediately after the war finished?
LT: Er, yes [shuffling]. I’ve got a note somewhere when I left the RAF.
AS: What did you do after, after you left?
LT: What did I do?
AS: Hmm.
LT: I became – I had one or two little business activities, but I went into insurance business. I was an insurance broker for many years. I had my office in The Temple. You know The Temple?
AS: Mm.
LT: Smiths [?], Selma [?] and Temple and Company, Temple Chambers, Temple Avenue, East E4, that was, that was what I was involved in –
AS: Did, did –
LT: When I came out the RAF.
AS: Did you find it easy to settle back into civilian life or?
LT: Well, the early days weren’t easy, the early days weren’t easy. But – because I did a lot of cold calling on businesses in those days, a lot of cold calling to build up a basic clientele. But then I, I got known quite well. I had an office in Shoreditch, and then I went up to Ludgate Circus, and then from Ludgate Circus we were doing well with the Norwich Union, and they said to me that ‘we’ve got offices in The Temple.’ They owned these offices in the Norwich Union and ‘we’d like you to come in there and operate [laughs] and we can do business together.’ So that’s the way – until my retirement at sixty-five. Really I retired too early [emphasis]. I could have gone on working and it’s, I mean when you look at it gently, I’m now coming up ninety-one. I’m retired, you know, twenty-six, twenty-six years ago [laughs], it’s, you know to fill in your time over those years it takes, it takes a lot of doing. And I’ve filled in a lot of my time with doing building for other people sort of thing, going, passing on my know how to other people, and that’s the, that’s the way it’s been.
AS: And tell me about your comrades in your crew. You told me you kept in touch with them.
LT: Yes. Well did you see that letter –
AS: I did yes.
LT: From my skipper?
AS: Yes I did. Your skipper Eric Neilson.
LT: Yeah.
AS: Tell me, tell me, tell us about Eric.
LT: Eric’s, Eric was a – well he had his own aircraft in Canada. He he had his own plane, and he wanted me to go out there but I missed it. I didn’t go out to Canada and then things, things happened that are just right. We were writing, phoning each other and so on, keeping, keeping in touch [emphasis]. I kept in touch with about four of my crew. The one you saw the card, just died, Stan Horne my navigator. Kept in touch with him, and with Eric, Eric died pretty early [emphasis] you know.
AS: Did he? And he was the one who was the deputy prime minister in Canada.
LT: In Canada, yes. And you can see in your, in the book there’s some very nice pictures of him.
AS: And this is his memories, his autobiography we’re looking at.
LT: Yeah [shuffling papers]. See there’s our, there’s our crew there –
AS: Oh yes [long pause, shuffling].
LT: Lovely man [shuffling continues]. Life moves very quickly.
AS: And after the war what – I mean how do you think that Bomber Command were treated? Have you got any opinion on that?
LT: On Bomber Command – well no not really. I haven’t got a lot of experience [emphasis] with Bomber Command.
AS: No.
LT: But I’ve kept together, yeah I’ve been going to the RAF club regularly. I still go there occasionally.
AS: In Pall Mall?
LT: In Pall Mall, yes.
AS: Yes.
LT: Opposite the memorial.
AS: Yes.
LT: And go up there and, you know, because it gets to the stage when you’re here, you know, you make friends with someone and then they’re gone, die [laughs] you see. And there’s a session, session, a procession [emphasis] of men dying now –
AS: Hmm.
LT: Because everybody, everybody will, we’ll all go. I don’t know when, how much longer [laughs] I’ve got, you see. But it’s been a great [emphasis] experience in one’s life, to have gone through, gone through all this. It’s – I could go on for, on for days [emphasis] going over, going over things that –
AS: Shall we, erm, well shall I stop the recording, and we’ll look at some of the –
LT: Yeah.
AS: Archival documents –
LT: Did you –
AS: Materials that you’ve got. The book that you’ve been reading from – can I just –
LT: Did you see this letter?
AS: I’ll have a look at it in a second. The book you’ve been reading from is “Fighting Back: British During Military Contribution in the Second World War” by Martin Sugarman isn’t it?
LT: That’s right, yes.
AS: Yes. Okay, thank you very much, I’ll turn the recorder off now, and –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Leslie Temple
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:39 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATempleL151027
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Leslie Temple spent four years in the Air Training Corps before joining the Royal Air Force as a radio operator. He completed a tour of 30 operations with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna, as a German speaking special operator. He describes how having an eight man crew and extra equipment affected the interior of the Lancaster bombers. He reads from “Fighting Back: British During Military Contribution in the Second World War” by Martin Sugarman throughout the interview.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Katie Gilbert
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
Dominie
fear
ground personnel
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Madley
RAF Sculthorpe
searchlight
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/135/2210/AAndersonG161122.1.mp3
03ac4949566b3044c9098c0739cca874
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, George
G Anderson
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with George Anderson (1592437 Royal Air Force).
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by George Anderson and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Anderson, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean McCartney. The interviewee is George Anderson. The interview is taking place at Mr Anderson’s home in Murwillumbah, Northern New South Wales on the 22nd of November 2016. Ok George. Let’s start at the beginning, 1925.
GA: Yeah.
JM: You were born in —
GA: Hartlepool.
JM: Hartlepool. Hartlepool.
GA: County Durham.
JM: County Durham.
GA: England.
JM: In England. Yes. And did you spend, is that where you lived then for the next few —
GA: I lived in Holden Colliery.
JM: Right.
GA: And I was there until I went in to the forces.
JM: Right. And that, what, what —
GA: That was in —
JM: 19 —
GA: 1943.
JM: ’43.
GA: Yeah.
JM: And what, was that the air force in —
GA: I volunteered for aircrew.
JM: Aircrew.
GA: I went before I was eighteen and I volunteered. Went to County, Durham which is the capital of the county and I came back and told my mother I’d volunteered and she said, ‘You can’t go. You’re not eighteen.’ I said, ‘I volunteered for aircrew and they’ve taken me.’ So that was it.
JM: Right.
GA: And of course I went April or something late. You know, they called me up later.
JM: Right.
GA: I had a three day test. I’ve forgotten the name of the town I had to go to for medicals, everything. And that was it.
JM: Right. And that was 1943.
GA: Yes. And then I went to ACRC. Air Crew Recruiting Centre at Lord’s.
JM: Goodness.
GA: The cricket ground.
JM: Yeah.
GA: And that’s where we did our drill. I was there, I was there an extended period because we were doing drill with rifles and I fell over. The bloke in front of me fell and I fell over him. Damaged my right arm. It was twisted. And I was there a few weeks longer in hospital and having treatment. And then went on to oh I thought I’d written that down. I can’t remember where I went to next.
JM: That’s ok. Right. So the, lets — you did schooling though before obviously you went into your, right, before you enlisted. So, which school did you go to?
GA: Oh I went to, I was just elementary and I finished school at fourteen and worked in a grocery store. My parents couldn’t afford to. You had to pay to go to High School in those days and they couldn’t afford to. So I finished school at fourteen.
JM: That’s right. Because I presume that was crossing over part of the Depression years.
GA: Yes. Yes. Oh heck, the Depression. I remember that. You got a penny a week to spend and that was it.
JM: Very tough.
GA: Yes.
JM: Yes. And when you then went to this next lot of training was that for what were you doing, were you doing?
GA: Radio, at Initial Training Wing, ITW.
JM: Yeah.
GA: And then after that it was Radio School.
JM: Radio School. And —
GA: Radio School. I was there for a long time. Radio School.
JM: So did you do wireless operator training?
GA: Yes. Yes.
JM: Right.
GA: Yeah. Yeah. Well you started off I think you had to pass out at twenty six words a minute and actually we, they got to thirty two which is navy, merchant navy speeds. And I managed to pass all that. If you failed you were put on RT, return training, you know, put back three weeks. And if you failed that — out. So I managed to get through that alright.
JM: Good. Good. And where did you go? Was that, after that was then Number 2 OAFU?
GA: Observer Flying Unit. And that was over near [unclear] I’m sorry I’ve got it in my logbook there.
JM: That’s ok. Do you want me to — ?
GA: Do you want me to go and get it?
JM: Yeah. Ok. We’ll just pause while you get it. Are you alright there?
GA: Yeah. Great [unclear]
[recording paused]
JM: Picking up now we found that you were at the EWS, Madley Wireless School in Herefordshire which is where you got your twenty six words a minute.
GA: Yes.
JM: And from there, as we’ve just seen the next posting was in Milham in Cumberland for the Elementary Flying Training School.
GA: Yes.
JM: So there, that was more training there, and you went on to Avro Ansons there by the looks of this. And then after that you went to Number 10.
GA: OTU.
JM: OTU.
GA: Operational Training Unit.
JM: In, in Berkshire in January 1945.
GA: That was in Wellingtons as well.
JM: And you met Ron Pile, a navigator.
GA: Yes.
JM: And you then all became a bit of a crew then for a little while?
GA: Yeah. Yeeah. Mixed up and you know, you found a bomb aimer and somebody said, ‘Oh yeah, I know a bloke that will do this,’ so we became the crew.
JM: Right. And then that crew, you transferred to Stanton.
GA: Stanton Harcourt.
JM: Harcourt. Ok.
GA: What was that? I can’t remember.
[pause]
GA: Was that heavy conversion?
[pause]
GA: Heavy Conversion Unit, 1668.
JM: Yes. That’s right.
GA: Lancasters, yeah.
JM: Yeah.
GA: We had a skipper there who’d been, he’d been shot down earlier. We were his second crew.
JM: And you started training on high level bombing runs?
GA: Yeah.
JM: At this, in your time there.
GA: Yeah. We were, I mentioned we were up in Scotland when the skipper went back to the elsan, you know, the toilet, put his mask on and went back and the bomb aimer took over. We had no engineer then. We hadn’t got him then. And he got the artificial horizon and the wings mixed up and we went into a spin dive.
JM: Spin dive.
GA: We were up over twenty thousand. And the skipper had to pull himself down over there trying to help. I knew nothing really. The skipper finally got us out at about three thousand feet.
JM: That was in —
GA: That was at Heavy Con. I’ll have it somewhere in here. Yeah. We did, on those Heavy Cons we did cross countries. We did bullseyes and we had a bullseye at Green Park. I remember getting mixed, we got mixed, we got mixed up with the flight of the aircraft going out on the bombing raid. That was another incident. We did a, I did a diversion as well, 5th of the 4th. Did fighter affiliation. Lots of circuits and bumps. Yes.
JM: Right.
GA: I haven’t looked at this for a long time.
JM: Well there you go.
GA: I found it the other day when they asked me some.
JM: Right. And so then —
GA: So from Heavy Con I went to 101 Squadron, Ludford Magna.
JM: Yeah.
GA: And that was about April. April ’45. And from there I did the Manna raid on Rotterdam.
JM: Right.
GA: Rotterdam.
JM: Rotterdam.
GA: Yeah.
JM: And what do you remember of that?
GA: Low level. Very low level. I remember throwing chocolate out to some kids on the rooftop. And I remember Tony the tail gunner said, ‘I want to shoot those bastards.’ And the skipper said, this was the Germans, they still had their guns, you know. We had a pact, more or less with the Germans at the time. And he said, ‘I want to shoot them.’ The skipper said, ‘You’ll not or they’ll have us.’ Had three, three Irishmen in the crew.
JM: Right.
GA: Fighters. And, well we just, the food was in sandbags really. It was just, went over low level over race courses or wherever, or football fields and just opened the bomb doors and swoosh. There were no parachutes.
JM: No. Possibly well you were pretty low level so hopefully —
GA: Oh yes
JM: So —
GA: But very low, housetops. We were supposed to be at five hundred. We used to fly on these and we’d fly with a friend, you know. Try and get as close as possible to them. Amazing.
JM: So —
GA: Does that make any sense?
JM: Yes. So after your Manna raid then did you do any other? Did you then do any other bombing raids after that?
GA: No.
JM: No. No.
GA: I did just [unclear] formation. [unclear] I can’t remember what that was. [unclear]. No. I didn’t do any. I didn’t do a bombing raid.
JM: Right.
GA: As I say I was briefed for Berchtesgaden which was the last one that 101 did and we didn’t go because a good crew came back off leave and they were put in our place and we didn’t go.
JM: Right.
GA: Maybe that’s why I’m here today.
JM: It could well be.
GA: I did bombing, bombing, bombing. They were just, we did practice bombing all the time as well as the bombing. Bad storm. All the equipment out to sea. [unclear] We, I did, oh yes — that was something. We were doing bomb disposals, and we had two engines went u/s. Gee was u/s. That’s unserviceable.
JM: Yeah.
GA: And we had fourteen, fourteen five hundred pounds bombs on. We were getting rid of bombs in Cardigan Bay in Wales. Probably in there. And we had two engines went u/s. I got rid of them by using a nail file on the fuses, got rid of twelve or fourteen. Anyway, we’d two left and the skipper suddenly shouted, ‘George, send an SOS,’ which I did. And then he suddenly said, ‘George, cancel that, I’ve got the engine. Another.’ We’d lost the third engine. He said, ‘Cancel that. I’ve got the second engine going, so we were back to two engines. And we pulled back over the Welsh hills below their level. It was getting dark and should have only been about an hour and twenty minutes. The flight was four hours twenty minutes and when we got back to base, Bardney, they didn’t have Bardney, I don’t know, one of them, and the skipper said, oh they got, he got a message from RT. You couldn’t, RT was radio transmission was only ten miles so that we were within ten miles of base before he was able to talk to base. And he said, they said. ‘Divert to the east coast. There’s a long runway, you’ll get in there.’ And the skipper said, ‘Sorry, I haven’t got enough fuel for that. I’m coming into base.’ We landed. We got to the end of the runway and the other engine caught fire and of course we were out, running like hell anyway. That was [pause] yeah. We had two hang ups, a fire, fuel was low. That was A Flight, 189 Squadron. That was it. And then after that we went [pause] I think, oh we went to Bari on the coast of Italy and we picked up the soldiers who had been fighting there. I think twenty or twenty four soldiers and all their kits bags and everything, and they were packed into the fuselage. The first thing we gave them was a spew bag [laughs] of course. A lot of them used them. And we, we did that via Bardney, Operation Dodge that was.
JM: And that, that was in 19 —
GA: 1945. And that was September.
JM: September 1945.
GA: September ’45.
JM: Right.
GA: On the squadron. Oh the August ’45 was when we had the trouble with the engines and the time dropping bombs. Dropping, empty, you know finished bombs. Diffused bombs. Bari. Dodge from Bari to, direct, there was an eight hour trip.
JM: That was to Italy.
GA: Yeah.
JM: Yeah.
GA: And then Bari to Bardney, seven hour thirty. I think I did two of them. Dodge to Bari, that was again, that was October, and then we were there five days and then Bari to base. Manston and Tuddenham, eight hours ten minutes.
JM: So you were actually were five days at Bari base?
GA: In Bari. Yes. Yeah.
JM: Right.
GA: I don’t know why we were. Weather or something. The navigator, Ron Pile, his brother was over the opposite side of Italy and he went off because of the weather. We’d been, we were, the flight was scrubbed to get back to England. And he went off to see his brother who was over on the west coast. And of course we got word to take off so we had to get another navigator. He got back home and got away with it. We were eight days. On the 21st was our first flight to Bari and that was the 21st and on the 29th we came back. On one of those occasions Ron skipped it. And when we got back home they told him, ‘Off you go. You’re on leave.’ Based at Bardney. Based Tuddenham. And I think that was when, that was when the last flight, October 23rd, I flew to Tuddenham. We flew and left the aircraft there. That was finished, no longer.
JM: No longer.
GA: No longer flying. We were grounded.
JM: Right. So then that [pause] but you weren’t actually discharged at that point?
GA: Oh no.
JM: You went on and —
GA: I did stores. Went in to stores. So —
JM: Whereabouts was that?
GA: It’s in there, it’ll be in there somewhere, sorry.
JM: Hold on. I’ll just check.
GA: Sorry.
JM: No. That’s ok [pause] Woolsington in Northumberland.
GA: Yes. Yeah. That was, I wasn’t far from home, that’s right.
JM: Right, right. And then after that you got moved up to Montrose?
GA: Yes.
JM: Right.
GA: I was a warrant officer, I think.
JM: Right.
GA: By then.
JM: So, that was all in August. And in 1947 you finally, at that stage you’d moved to Kirkham.
GA: Yeah.
JM: And Group 54. And you were finally released in ’47.
GA: Yeah. Married in ’47. I had about three or four of my air crew there as well, at my wedding. Our wedding.
JM: Yeah. That’s good.
GA: Sixty nine years ago.
JM: Yes. A long time. A long time. And then, and then I see from these notes that you, then you were working with your father. He bought a business.
GA: Yes. He bought a business.
JM: And you were working with him.
GA: Working for him. Then in ’49 I bought a small business in Sunderland. Retail.
JM: Retail business.
GA: Business.
JM: Yeah.
GA: There was still rationing then, of course in England.
JM: Absolutely.
GA: And I was there until 19, it was right outside the pit. The coal mine, you know, across the road was the coal mines in Southwick, Sunderland.
JM: Right.
GA: And I was there. My navigator came over and stayed with us and talked all about Australia. He’d come out here. He was from London but came out to Australia and talked about migrating. Kept on and on and on —
JM: And what was your navigator’s name?
GA: Ron Pile.
JM: Oh that’s Ron Pile again. Yes. Yes.
GA: Betty’s uncle who lived in Murwillumbah was, had come over to England and he came himself.
JM: So was Betty, she was English —
GA: She lived in Horden. We lived behind the park.
JM: Yeah, that’s right, but you said her uncle. So, what, one of her father’s or mother’s brothers had migrated, had they?
GA: He’d migrated.
JM: Right.
GA: And he came and he talked about Australia. Wonderful place. And we signed up. Went and got the papers.
JM: Became a ten pound pom.
GA: Three months we were given. Couldn’t sell the business in that time.
JM: No.
GA: So we had cousins, ‘Would you sell the business?’ And that was it. We were gone. And we had, our daughter was eleven and our son was nine and that was it. We decided we were going.
JM: Going.
GA: And we sailed from England on our wedding anniversary, 19th of July 1959.
JM: Right.
GA: That was it. The best thing that ever happened.
JM: Yeah.
GA: Came straight to Murwillumbah.
JM: Well I was going to say that was the Murwillumbah connection, because of Betty’s uncle being here.
GA: Yes.
JM: Right. Right.
GA: The original sponsor was Betty’s cousin. The daughter of my uncle.
JM: Yeah.
GA: But they went to Keir Lucas who was a prominent member of an accountants’ in town. Went for a [unclear] test and he was president of Rotary and he said, ‘Let us take over. We’ve got a ship coming out on the 19th of July. All Rotary sponsored.’ So that was it and we were just shew, shew.
JM: Connections as they say, connections.
GA: It wasn’t a favour or anything. It was just he wanted somebody to do for, you know for Rotary.
JM: Yeah.
GA: They wanted more people from England on this ship and Rotary were sponsoring everybody.
JM: Excellent.
GA: And we had a, we got on board and we met, anyway, I’ve forgot her name. She lives here. Rose Boyd. She was coming back after a holiday in England. She got on, she was on board the same ship but she was paying her way. Well [pause] so she was a cane farmer’s wife. He had a cane farm here in Murwillumbah and of course Betty got to know her. We were six, six weeks on board.
JM: Yes. It was a slight —
GA: We sailed so that we arrived in Brisbane for their anniversary. For their hundred in ‘59 they were, that was their hundred birthday of Brisbane.
JM: Right.
GA: And of course we were delayed in Adelaide, Not Adelaide. Perth. We met English people in Perth. In Sydney met Ron. Five of us on the, no, seven of us on the beach at Bondi. August 25th. Nobody else, mid-winter and there we were.
JM: Sunning yourself.
GA: Enjoying it.
JM: Yeah. Yeah.
GA: Amazing.
JM: Amazing. Yeah. So when the boat came did you — you docked in Perth.
GA: Perth.
JM: And then did you continue on the boat round?
GA: Yeah.
JM: Oh ok. Right.
GA: Right around.
JM: Right. And so you docked in Sydney as well did you, did you say?
GA: Melbourne.
JM: Melbourne and Sydney.
GA: Sydney. And then up to Brisbane.
JM: And then to Brisbane.
GA: Delayed in Sydney so that we that arrived for the hundredth anniversary.
JM: Right. Ok.
GA: In Brisbane.
JM: And so from then on —
GA: And Rotary met us in Brisbane.
JM: And then to here, right. It’s unusual that. It must have been because Rotary were organising it.
GA: Yeah.
JM: That it happened that way because that wasn’t the normal sort of.
GA: No.
JM: A lot of people tended go in to Melbourne and get offloaded in Melbourne and came —
GA: Yeah. Yeah.
JM: If they were coming to New South Wales they were on trains from Melbourne up to Sydney.
GA: Yeah.
JM: So that was —
GA: It was all organised through Rotary.
JM: Rotary. Yeah. That’s very interesting. So you got into Murwillumbah in, what?
GA: August.
JM: Late August.
GA: Yeah.
JM: Late August 1959 and you’ve been here ever since.
GA: This cousin lived in River Street and that banana festival which has just been. They drove us, came round to, Betty said, ‘I want to live there,’ pointed to the houses, in. They said, ‘Oh no. This is snob hill.’ Next door was the Withies who owned the saw mill. There was the manager of the, or something or other, doctor, solicitors. It was expensive housing. Two years later, February 1962 I knew somebody who said, ‘Yeah. My mother’s just died and the house is for sale.’ And that was it. I said, ‘Right. We’ll have it.’ It was an old dilapidated house and I was a do it yourself man.
JM: You did it up and yes, marvellous. Magnificent view as you come. Magnificent view. So what did you do, did you do when you, what sort of, did you get into retailing again here or — ?
GA: Yes, the chap that was president of Rotary. They brought us down. He gave me a job. He was the radio and wireless man, and television man in Queen Street, Murwillumbah, gave me a job. I was there a few weeks. And then another Rotarian took me on I was in a grocery shop for a few weeks. And then another Rotarian [unclear] studios. They took me as a, and taught me photography. And that was, I’ll tell you in a minute his name, and I was there for two years. I was photographing for the, for him, for weddings and so forth and also for the newspaper. So I was travelling up to [unclear] and Southport getting these photos of celebrities. And then bringing them back, develop the film and getting them into the newspaper by 5 o’clock, had to be develop and printed, 5 o’clock was the deadline. And I did that for three years. And I did a little bit of photography on my own as well. And then I went into the advertising side, side of the newspaper. And then became advertising manager. And then went and had a heart attack and retired and that was it.
JM: So, I presume that you became a member of Rotary?
GA: No. No.
JM: You didn’t? Oh. Ok.
GA: I was a member of Lions.
JM: Lions, right.
GA: I joined that in 1970.
JM: Right.
GA: And I was a member until 2010.
JM: Right.
GA: Forty years. And although I travelled, as you can see, I travelled the world. No matter where we went I went to a Lions meeting. Never missed meetings. You know, it was always. That was me.
JM: Yes.
GA: And I was always active, active. I stayed active. As you can see, all these tapestries. I did that in my spare time.
JM: You did the tapestries.
GA: All of them.
JM: Goodness me.
GA: I didn’t watch television. I listened and I did my tapestries. I’ve got one now I’m trying to finish.
JM: Yes, amazing.
GA: Chairs. Cushions.
JM: Cushions.
GA: You know.
JM: What lead you to tapestry?
GA: When I had the heart attack.
JM: Right.
GA: Betty was doing tapestry and I was in hospital and they brought this tapestry in. That was it.
JM: That’s it.
GA: I had to do something.
JM: Had to do something because —
GA: I’m a doer.
JM: You’re a doer and you couldn’t just be lying there in bed.
GA: No. No.
JM: Doing nothing.
GA: Which is what I do now. I do nothing now.
JM: I don’t know that that’s such a bad thing in some respects given where you’re at now but —
GA: I’ve got to have this all the time now.
JM: Right.
GA: For my ticker.
JM: Ticker, yeah.
GA: It flares up.
JM: Yeah.
GA: Well, I guess I’m lucky.
JM: Yeah. And did you, I’m guessing that the decision to come to Australia was not one that you’ve ever regretted?
GA: No way. Best thing that ever happened. And the children are, as I say Brenda was eleven and Barry was nine on the day we went to Bondi Beach. He wanted to go to Bondi Beach. He was nine year old. Our daughter lives in [pause] near Tamworth, Manilla, near Tamworth.
JM: Right.
GA: And our son lives at Hastings Point.
JM: Oh ok. So that’s not too far away.
GA: It was a beach house. Brought a block of land, yeah. Frank Cook, the President of Rotary that brought us down and gave us me first job, he said, ‘George, there’s a block of land next door to me. Well, next door but one and it’s going for a hundred and thirty pounds. I suggest you buy it.’ We did. And then in ’79 we bought a house that had got to be moved from Kingston. We bought that and it was cut in two and moved on to the block. We gave that to our son about ten years ago. And this is our daughters so —
JM: Right. Yeah.
GA: Two happy kids.
JM: Yes.
GA: They love the country.
JM: Love the country, yes.
GA: Our daughter went on to the uni and was in the department. I don’t know. One of the departments. Our son, on top of the world and he became a photographer.
JM: So followed in your steps there, initial steps I suppose you might say into the photography side of things, yeah.
GA: Yeah.
JM: And what contact did you maintain? You mentioned that you’d seen Ron Pile.
GA: Yes.
JM: A couple of times.
GA: Brought my second bomb aimer Ken Heaton. They were over there in England and we saw them. [unclear] near Blackpool. We saw them each time we went over. It was good.
JM: Sorry, that was Ken.
GA: Ken Heaton.
JM: Heaton.
GA: He was the bomb aimer. He died about ten years ago.
JM: Right.
GA: I still kept in contact with his wife. I’ve got the name of him there.
JM: Yeah.
GA: You know, I contact her especially at Christmas.
JM: And so it sounds as though all of your crew were, were English?
GA: Yes.
JM: There were no ringings on any of your crew.
GA: No. Irish. Three Irish.
JM: Apart from the Irish but, you know.
GA: Tony. I used to visit Tony when we went over and then when he died I visited his wife. Lofty was our mid-upper. Lost contact with him. Our first bomb aimer, he was, after the war in Europe finished he went back to the west coast of Ireland where he lived. And that was it. He was a policeman. My engineer, he was a pilot. Larry. I lost contact with him. We just, you know. He was a Geordie but we didn’t. He was ok but we didn’t keep in contact.
JM: Contact. No. No.
GA: But the navigator who was the first one I met and crewed up with, you know we met and we decided to be in the same crew. He’s dead now. He had Alzheimer’s.
JM: And which, that wasn’t Ron was it?
GA: That was Ron Pile.
JM: That was Ron.
GA: He lived in Sydney.
JM: Right.
GA: He lived in Sydney.
JM: In Sydney. Yeah.
GA: He was up here once or twice.
JM: And what — just sort of backtracking a little bit. What would you say would perhaps be one of your best memories of your leave or something like that during your postings? Is there any particular event stands out when you were on leave at any time? Anything particularly that —
GA: I think whenever I went on leave — Betty was a nurse in Sunderland Royal Infirmary.
JM: Right.
GA: And of course there was always, I’d get home and she’d be on duty. So I’d go along [whistle] and they’d give Betty the message that, you know, ‘George is out the front,’ of the nurse’s quarters. She’d say, ‘Sorry I’m not off for another two hours.’ You know. And that was it. I mean being at home and trying to be at home together was difficult.
JM: Very difficult.
GA: Because there was always casualties there. And later on, of course when the prisoners of war were coming back from Germany and that, the wounded, she was very busy.
JM: So she nursed a lot of those chaps.
GA: Yes. Yes. And of course I remember the work in England before. I remember the bombing, you know. We were bombed. That was before I joined up. The north east of course got a hammering. I just know that I always had problems going home on leave wondering if Betty would be there or not. You know, if she was working that was it.
JM: Yeah.
GA: You’d have to get a bus. No transport. Later I had, my dad had a van, a little Ford van. I used to borrow that when I was stationed at Newcastle. Travelled down to see her and, you know.
JM: And, in terms of squadron reunions were there any?
GA: No.
JM: No real squadron reunions.
GA: No. No.
JM: At any time. Or anything like that?
GA: No.
JM: And I guess.
GA: Well —
JM: Once you were out of here of course there wasn’t any.
GA: There were squadron reunions you know but I didn’t get. I couldn’t get to them. You know.
JM: That was what, before you came, emigrated or after?
GA: Before.
JM: Obviously you know it wasn’t, it wouldn’t be until in much later in life that you would have been able to get back to any of the —
GA: I was in the Air Training Corps and in the RAF Association but I can’t remember ever being notified of reunions.
JM: Right.
GA: I mean, now I get the Air Mail or Reveille and it’s in there all the time, you know. Reunions.
JM: Yeah.
GA: But I can’t remember or recollect any at the time.
JM: So obviously in terms of out here in, you know, Northern New South Wales there really wouldn’t have been any Bomber Command connections.
GA: There is one up in Surfers Paradise.
JM: Surfers Paradise, right.
GA: But I haven’t managed to get to it.
JM: Right. Right.
GA: No.
JM: That’s all good. And what [pause] what other memories stand out for you from the war period. Anything in particular or just, anything?
GA: No. I’m sorry I’m, I’m just —
JM: No. That’s alright. It’s just, I guess so much of the time was so difficult really. I mean that’s part of the thing.
GA: Yeah, I remember that we always, as a crew, we did everything together.
JM: Yes.
GA: We were, you know, seven of us.
JM: Yeah.
GA: That was it, didn’t give a bugger about anybody else. We, when we went out the aircraft we had, we had bicycles and I think the skipper had a motorbike. We’d have a rope from the motorbike and he’d be, he’d tow us out to the aircraft. We, of course the skipper got promoted to flying officer and we went, in the hut, you were always there, six of you together. Nobody else mattered.
JM: Well, that was.
GA: I mean, that was over the year we were like that. We would go out in the evening. I can’t remember how we got out. Bus or something. All went together, stayed together, went to the pubs together. I used to drink then. And that was it. We were so close. I remember one occasion Tony said, ‘Come here,’ and he got up on to my shoulders to stand beside the traffic lights and he was going dah dah de dah. You can believe it. But that’s —
JM: A bit of a humorous there by the sounds of it.
GA: Yes. Yes. We were pretty, yeah, good.
JM: Pretty good. That’s right.
GA: A good crew.
JM: A good crew.
GA: Yeah.
JM: And of course that’s very much contrasted by all the times you’ve had in Murwillumbah and a very different lifestyle. Very different opportunities.
GA: Yes. Well, I’ve been in different organisations. I was in the Lodge, a Mason, Lions. Now I’m in Legacy. I look after old ladies. They’re all younger than me. All wives of ex-servicemen. Go to [Provost] with Betty. [unclear] That’s my biggest worry.
JM: That’s right. Well that’s all.
GA: Is that enough?
JM: That’s good. Yes.
GA: That’s enough?
JM: That’s enough. Thank you, George. That’s magnificent.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Anderson
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAndersonG161122
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jean Macartney
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-22
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:33 audio recording
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
George Anderson was born in County Durham and worked in a grocery shop before he joined the Royal Air Force in 1943. He flew operations as a wireless operator at the end of the war, with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna. In 1959 George and his family began a new life in Australia.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1945
10 OTU
101 Squadron
1668 HCU
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Ludford Magna
sanitation
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/195/3328/AAllenRM160809.2.mp3
0e0b76b16f6cef1602bcaf97be83a19b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allen, Richard Murray
Richard Allen
Richard Murray Allen
R Allen
Richard M Allen
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Richard Murray Allen (b. 1925, 435362 Royal Australian Air Force).
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allen, RM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DG: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre; my name is Donald Gould, and I'm interviewing Richard Allen at his home in Pymble, a suburb of Sydney in New Souith Wales, Australia. How old are you, Richard?
RA: Ninety one.
DG: And where were you born?
RA: In Brisbane in Queensland (pause).
DG: Where did you go to school?
RA: Well, actually I went to primary school in Mount Iza because my father went there during the depression, he was an engineer in the power house there. We spent eight years there. I did my primary schooling there, and I did my secondary schooling, two years of it in those days, which would be the equivelent of about year ten now, I did that at the State Commercial High School in Brisbane.
DG: And er, Mount Isa's a mining town, isn't it?
RA: That's correct.
DG: What was your father doing there?
RA: He was an engineer in the power house.
DG: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah (chuckles). When war broke out can you remember where you were, what you were doing, how old you were?
RA: Yes, I was fourteen. Nineteen thirty nine it was, and I was still at school.
DG: And when you were at, when you were at school did you have any thought that you might end up in the war?
RA: Yes. I joined the Air Training Corps as soon as it was formed. From memory that would have been about nineteen forty one, and I joined the Air Training Corps, and we were given, apart from marching and drilling, and all that sort of thing, we were given certain instructions in morse code, sending and receiving of course, and meteor-, meteorological education, and other things relative to the Air Force. And I was in the Air Training Corps until April nineteen forty three, and on the tenth of April, which is my birthday, I er was actually accepted by the Air Force and ten days later I was in camp at the initial training school.
DG: Now you left, you finished school in forty three?
RA: No, I finished school actually in nineteen thirty nine.
DG: Oh, I beg your pardon. Oh you, oh you had finished then?
RA: Oh yes.
DG: Oh I see. Right, right. Okay then.
RA: I finished school at fourteen, which was a bit young in those days. Most kids would have finished high school at fifteen or sixteen, but I'd had primary school, because it was a small country town I'd done two years in one, which meant I could finish school a bit younger than most people. So, I joined the Air Training Corps which was formed during the war, about nineteen forty one. Because I always wanted to get into the Air Force rather than the Army, and I knew that when I turned eighteen I would be put into either the Air Force or the Army because there was conscription for home service, but I thought I might as well volunteer and go wherever they told me to go.
DG: Why the Air Force and not the Army?
RA: Oh, I suppose because (chuckles) it appealed to me more. I can't think of any other reason.
DG: No? And did you erm, when you, when you then, when you then joined the er, the Air Force did you have any, any idea as to what you, what you wanted to do?
RA: Oh yes. Everybody wanted to be a pilot (both laugh). But on initial training course there were about a hundred and eighty on the course. Courses were going in about once a month in those days, and there were about a hunudred and eighty of us. I think there were about ten pilots and about, picked from the course, and about er perhaps ten or fifteen navigators, and the rest, the rest were, were appointed as wireless air gunners for further training. Well wireless was easy to me because I could send and receive, er twenty five, thirty words a minute because of my training in the Air Training Corps. Ah. So the wireless course, which was six months, was pretty easy, actually. The gunnery course only lasted a month, then our training was completed in Victoria, and within a month we were on a troop ship to England.
DG: So what place you, you, was all your training in Victoria?
RA: No. The initial training and the wireless training, which was a total of, initial training was one month, wireless course about six months, that was all done in Queensland. The wireless course, the initial training course, my pardon, was at Kingeroy, a country town in Queensland, and Merriburra in Queensland was the wireless course, and then in Victoria was the gunnery course, which was at West Sale. There was an Air Force station at East Sale, that's why I distinguish one from the other.
DG: So, you were then in the Air Force and receiving this training. Did you have any idea where you might end up? Did you know you might go to Europe, or-
RA: Oh yes, almost certainly, almost certainly. Actually, I was selected as a navigator on the initial training course, and then the next day they sent for me and said, 'look, I'm sorry, you were selected as a navigator but we find that you can't go overseas until you're nineteen. That's against the law. So you're going to have to be a wireless operator.' So, I was a bit peeved by that, but, you know, you have to accept your fate from these people.
DG: Yes. And so, when, when did you-
RA: Actually, I got to England before I was nineteen. I reached England in April, I beg your pardon, in March nineteen forty four, before I was nineteen. It didn't seem to matter then.
DG: No. So, you went from Victoria. Where did you go from -
RA: I went on leave for a few weeks, and then got on the troop ship. I came on leave back to Bradfield Park, Sydney, which you'd know well, and we were there for about three days.
DG: Right.
RA: And then on to the troop ship.
DG: And where did you, where did you, where did you disembark?
RA: In England?
DG: Are you- You didn't go, you didn't have training in Canada?
RA: No.
DG: No?
RA: No navigators -
DG: Ah, of course yes, yes. That's right. Yes. (DG talking across RA throughout this exchange)
RA: Navigators went there, and I think the odd pilot, but mostly the navigators. I guess because it was pretty flat.
DG: And what, and what places did you do further training in the UK?
RA: Well, when I got to UK I was given a staff job, at a Pilot's Advanced Flying Unit, up in the Cotswolds, a place called erm, Windrush, and our job up there was to fly at night time with pilots who were converting from single engined to multi engined aircraft. They were actually converting on Oxfords, which weren't a very pleasant aircraft, but we used to fly with the trainee pilots at night time, so if they got lost we could get them a bearing on the wireless to get them back to, to Windrush. I was there for a couple of months and back to Brighton, which was the RAAF holding unit, and then I was posted to operational training at a place called Kinloss in Scotland, and er, just near Fin- which was the aeordrome, just near Findhorne Bay, I believe there's a permanent base there now, and from there we went to Bottesford for operational training, and converting from, from Wellingtons which we'd flown in at operational training, and er (pause) we then went to heavy conversion unit at Bottesford. Perhaps that's not what I said originally, but it was a heavy conversion unit where we converted onto Lancasters, and then we went to, we were there I guess for about a month, maybe a bit more, then over to 101 Squadron, Ludford Magna.
DG: When you arrived -, and what er, you were a wireless operator, what rank were you at that stage?
RA: I landed in England as a Sergeant, and I, after six months you were automatically promoted to Flight Sergeant, and after tweve months automatically promoted to Warrant Officer, unless you'd kicked a Squadron Commander in the shins, or something. (pause)
DG: And er, 101, and that was at Ludford Magna?
RA: That's correct.
DG: And what type of aircraft were you flying there?
RA: Lancasters
DG: Can you tell me just a little bit about your dialy life at the base? What, what did you do?
RA: Not a lot. I'm blowed if I know. I often think about that. (DG laughs) I don't think we did much at all. Unless the, the, the unit was shut down because there was going to be an operation on, and the mess was closed twelve hours before that, I believe it was twelve hours, I think we used to hang about the hut, or talk, or play cards. Occassionally, if we weren't wanted, we'd go into Louth, er, for a few drinks. But, I can't remember what we did normally, other than that.
DG: The rest of your crew, were they, er what nationalities were they?
RA: An English captain, English engineer, I had an Australian navigator, me wireless operator, a Canadian bomb aimer, and two Scottish gunners, mid upper and rear.
DG: I believe that Ludford Magna wasn't, the airfield, wasn't very well drained.
RA: I don't remember, the strip itself was bitumen, I know that, but off the- I think it was commonly called Mudford Magna. Mudford Magna, because it was pretty sloppy, I clearly remember that.
DG: What sort of problems did that cause?
RA: The same problems as slopping about in muddy circumstances normally.
DG: And I understand that there was a fog dispersal system that was initiated there, or trialed.
RA: Yeah. They were still testing it. After May the eighth when the war was finished in Europe, I recall that aircrew was called upon, I think more than one day, to do circuits and bumps and testing this FIDO thing, Fog Intesnsive Dispersal Of, um FIDO, and it was a system where there were two pipelines, one on each side of the runway, and at intervals, at least, the pipelines had oil in them, I presume, wouldn't have been petrol, would have been oil, and they were lit, and the idea was so that if there was a fog the heat would disperse the fog. But I remember that on a couple of foggy days we were given the task of trying this thing, or testing it, or anyway, it hasn't, it couldn't have been a great success because I don't remember ever hearing of it being used anywhere else.
DG: So how, there were lines along the side of the airfield.
RA: Two pipes along the strip.
DG: And, obviously outlets for the oil. How did, how was that lit?
RA: No idea. No idea, I was concerned with, you know, getting set up to do my part on the aircraft while somebody else did that. Some of the ground staff, no doubt, were handling that while we did what we had to do.
DG: If it was a day where you were going to fly a mission, presumably that night, what was that day like, what, what was your routine then?
RA: Well, I can't clearly remember then because, you know, I only did, according to the log book, which is long since list because I, we've moved, according to my log book I only officially did one operation.
DG: Ah, right.
RA: And, er although there was some discussion about that, they wouldn't let us count a couple which we did (pause) which the Flight Commander or Squadron Leader said, no, they didn't count, but anyway. So I have very little memory of what we did, what the day was like. I remember that we had to be at the briefing at a certain time, I remember that we had to pick up our parachutes, I remember being driven out to the aircraft, I remember that we would have been er, you know, I remember putting on my harness, the parachute harness, I can remember putting on my Mae West, and I can remember standing up when the officer came in to brief us, and lots of funny little things, but er, what I clearly remember though on coming back, that was the important, well perhaps before, the important part for me was that we got a little, a ration to take with us on the aircraft for when we were flying, so we had something to nibble, you know, something to eat, whether it was a sandwich, or also Mars bar, and of course I'd never seen a Mars bar, because we didn't have Mars bars in Australia pre-war, that I ever saw, and as a kid I knew a lot about lollies, and so the Mars bar became very important, and that was where I was introduced to them.
DG: Can you remember what the target was?
RA: Yeah, Rotterdam. We were dropping food at Rotterdam.
DG: Ah, right. At what, well what, what, do you remember the date? Or month, year, whatever?
RA: Yeah, it was May the seventh, nineteen forty five.
DG: Ah right. So yes, that would have been very near-
RA: I can clearly remember part of the briefing was that if you fired, er if you were fired on you're not to return the fire, the gunners were not to return the fire, because we were only at five hundred feet, or thereabout, five hundred seems to stick in my mind, which seems pretty low. But I clearly remember as we crossed the Dutch coast, I was standing in the astrodome and shortly after that, and I could see the German light arm placements along the top of a dyke. They were looking at us, and we were looking back at them, sort of thing, but we'd been instructed that we wouldn't be fired on, but in the event that we were the gunners were not to return fire, which er, you know, I didn't approve of much, and nor did the gunners, but nobody fired on us anyway.
DG: Oh that was just as well, it would have made things a bit difficult under those circumstances. There were some, some people who, who had bad nerves, did you ever, and they, they were, they might have said they couldn't, didn't want to fly a mission, or something, and they were accused of having a lack of moral fibre. Did you come across any of that?
RA: When we, when we were at operational training in Scotland we had initially an Irish bomb aimer, and suddenly he seemed to disappear and he was replaced by a Canadian, a Canadian bloke, and it was always a mystery to me because it all, all happened so quickly, and I have since reflected on it and thought well, maybe he did turn it in then because we were constantly asked, or told, that if we didn't want to go on, now was the time to stop. 'Cause later on, you know, would be no good. You'd be letting the other fellows down.
DG: Yes. Yes. Did you, did you? So you didn't have any real first hand knowledge of that?
RA: No.
DG: No. Did you hear about, hear any stories about -?
RA: Ah, we heard stories about it, yes.
DG: How were they treated?
RA: Oh, pretty badly, you know, they weren't shot, but, you know, they were, lost their rank, and were sort of drummed out of the, out of the service, well out of sight anyway. Yes it was well known that if you went LMF you were in big trouble. Yeah.
DG: So, you didn't er, your mission was (pause) pretty uneventful, nothing -
RA: Pretty uneventful except that we were dropping, amongst other things, bags of flour, which was very exciting, but no, we were pretty low, and as we, they, they weren't too sure that when the bomb aimer released flour as he would release the bombs, they didn't seem to be too sure it would release properly, and my job that day, I'd been given a sort of a toggle. I had to lie on the floor of the aircraft as we approached the field that we were dropping the stuff in, and if they thought, if it held up, I was to work this toggle somehow to make it release, and I remember lying on the floor and when the bags of flour hit the airstream the, the, the flour all, well you know what flour's like, it went everywhere and I was covered in flour from the top of my head to the tip of my toes.
DG: Presumably some of the bags got out alright.
RA: They all got out, but it was the rush of air, you know, flour goes everywhere, you can imagine dropping a bag a flour, it hitting a gale.
DG: They weren't in some sort of canisters or anything?
RA: No, just hessian.
DG: But-
RA: We were very low. We were very low, we were right down below the five hundred feet.
DG: Oh, right. Ok.
RA: We were down below the height of the spires and the buildings.
DG: Oh, I see. But still, you know, a bag of flour hitting the ground, even from that height- (unclear, talking over one another)
RA: But when it hit the flip, the slipstream, I can tell you, it went, (chuckles) didn't burst a bag but-
DG: Oh, I see, the bag, yeah, oh, right, because some gets through the hessian. Yes, of course, I see. It's not the (unclear) it's not airtight, I see. Did you drop anything else, or was it just-
RA: No. Well, there may have been, but it was the flour that got me.
DG: Did you see people out coming to-
RA: Oh the field, the edge of the field was stacked with people. Crowds, of people. So certainly saw people, yes. Apart from the Germans we'd seen, we saw.
DG: Were Germans still at their post?
RA: Yes, yes.
DG: They'd just been told to stop firing? They hadn't been-
RA: The armistice hadn't been settled, you see.
DG: Yes, so they hadn't actually been officially captured or under control of-
RA: No, they were debating, they were debating the terms, I suppose.
DG: And it was just a ceasefire.
RA: They were debating what was to happen and there was a ceasefire.
DG: Yes.
RA: Which was a good thing, I suppose, from my point of view.
DG: Oh yes, you'd have been, you'd have really been a sitting duck.
RA: Well, we probably wouldn't have been doing it, at that height, anyway.
DG: Yes, yes. So ah, did, did you, when you were, do, on that mi, on that flight, on that mission, did you know that, that would be the last one you'd fly?
RA: No, no. No.
DG: You didn't know?
RA: No, we got out of the aircraft when we got back in the afternoon, and the groundcrew said, 'the war's over'. It had by then been announced. The armistice was-
DG: You had flown some other missions? That weren't counted? What were they?
RA: Well, we don't know, we were told, we just flew down over France somewhere. I think they were diversions of some sort.
DG: Oh, I see.
RA: You know, making the Germans think there was going to be an attack there, or an attack here. But anyway, they didn't let us count those.
DG: And did anything happen on those?
RA: Ah, no, we saw other aircraft, other Lancasters, which at one stage I remember we were tri- we were having our first experience of a thing called Fishpond, which I was operating, which was a screen which, with wiping, there was sort of a wiper going round at all times. It was supposed to pick up any other aircraft, beneath you, of course, wouldn't do it above, and I remember operating that. It wasn't very efficient. I remember saying to the gunners, 'look I can see something that looks to be suspicious'. I've forgotten whether it was below us or off to one side. But they said, 'ah, yes, it's another Lancaster. We've been watching it for ten minutes', so, you know, I was pretty slow on the Fishpond (chuckles). Anyway.
DG: But of course in those days that sort of technology was all very new, and it wasn't terribly easy to operate, or accurate or, I don't suppose.
RA: No. I seemed to be seeing things all the time, you know (chuckles) I suppose being a bit nervous.
DG: So when, when you'd flown your last mission, erm, what happened to you after that?
RA: Erm, some weeks later we were, we officially came out, see we'd been testing FIDO, we'd, I think we'd ferried an aircraft up to Lossiemouth, er, for, we'd taken an aircraft up to Lossiemouth, and then we brought it back with a couple of other crews that had also taken a couple of aircraft up there. And the RAAF announced, we were told that Australian, all the Australian air force, or air crew, were to be grounded, and they were calling for volunteers to form an Australian squadron to go to Burma. And you could volunteer for that squadron, or you could wait and get the troop ship home, and then go North, because the Japanese war, the Pacific war was still on. So I though, no, I been away from home now for, you know, sort of, eighteen months, more or less, I thought well I'll go home first and then let them do what they want to do with me.
DG: One fellow told me that some people in Bomber Command had received white feathers from the people in Australia. Did you ever hear about that?
RA: No.
DG: No. When you, when did you come back to Australia?
RA: October nineteen forty five.
DG: And what, what happened to you then?
RA: I was sent, I was given leave, told to report after about two or three weeks to Sandgate, RAAF Sandgate holding unit, and I was discharged. December nineteen forty five.
DG: And what did you do then? What did you do for work?
RA: I went back to work.
DG: Right.
RA: We were offered a rehab course, I took a rehab course, in accounting, so, and that was by correspondence so that took me, that was forty five, that took me another five years to complete that, night time, part time, an so on.
DG: Right. And where did you meet your wife?
RA: At work.
DG: Ah, right. What, what, so you, you an accountant or?
RA:Well, I was doing my accountancy, but I was working for a company that sold machines that did accounting, you know, they were accounting machines. Machinery that could handle ledgers, and most accounting is a ledger, so I was working for them, and she was working for them, and there we are (chuckles).
DG: And do you keep in touch with any people from Bomber Command?
RA: They're all gone, they're all gone, as far as I can see. The only had one, the only one in Australia was the navigator, he did, I probably shouln't mention his name, he did law, he'd been a policeman, he did law, and I picked up the paper one day, The Australian, and here his name was, he'd, he'd tickled the trust fund, I believe, so I think he finished in gaol.
DG: Oh dear. How did you, how were you treated after the war? As being with Bomber Command
RA: Alright. No problems.
DG: Yeah, yeah, right. Well thank you very much. That's much appreciated.
RA: Oh, pretty easy, pretty painless.
DG: Thank you.
RA: Not very interesting.
DG: Always interesting. Finish.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAllenRM160809
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Murray Allen
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:28:57 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Donald Gould
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-09
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Murray Allen was born in Queensland, Australia. He joined the Air Training Corps and later volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force on his eighteenth birthday. He trained as a wireless operator in Australia, before being posted to England, where after further training, he flew one operation with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna. He went home to Australia in October 1945, before being discharged in the December that year.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Adams
101 Squadron
aircrew
FIDO
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Oxford
promotion
RAF Bottesford
RAF Kinloss
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Windrush
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/210/3349/ABibbyG150521.2.mp3
f2a9d312c6618b3ce0ce7e9dd06c0d23
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bibby, Geoffrey
Geoffrey Bibby
Geoff Bibby
G Bibby
Description
An account of the resource
One Oral history interview with Geoff Bibby.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bibby, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NB: This is Nicky Barr. It’s the 2nd of January 2015 (different date on audio). We’re recording in the house of Geoffrey Bibby — veteran from 101 Squadron. Its 10 past 6 in the evening local time and we’ll start the recording now. Thank you, first of all, for agreeing to do this. I just wondered if you’d like to give me some background as to how you came to be in Bomber Command.
GB: Originally, I was in the army. New Zealand army. And — but when the Japanese were stopped on Guadalcanal by the Americans they had a whole lot of New Zealand troops in New Zealand and they didn’t know what to do with them. So they gave us the option of either going back into Civvy Street or transferring into the air force if we wanted to. And I always wanted to be in the air force and in particular, as I was reasonably, reasonably ok with mathematics I thought that perhaps a navigator’s job would be quite interesting. And that’s what I found it was.
NB: And what sort of year was — when did that all happen?
GB: 1943. Beginning of ’43.
NB: Ok. And were you put in to Bomber Command or did you select to go in?
GB: No. I did my initial training in Rotorua in New Zealand and then a party of about twenty of us went through to Canada to train in Canada. And all of us, a whole lot of us went to Winnipeg, or Portage la Prairie which is about a eighty miles west of Winnipeg. And we trained there as navigators.
NB: Right.
GB: And so from that moment on I was destined really for Bomber Command.
NB: Ok. And so when did you come over to the UK?
GB: We came over at the end of ’44 and did our initial training. First of all in Wales.
NB: Right.
GB: And then after that in various other airfields until we did our — we went to Blyton.
NB: Right.
GB: And from Blyton to Husbands Bosworth. No. To [pause] from Blyton to [pause] what was our base?
Other: Ludford.
GB: Ludford Magna [laughs] you can see I’m getting old.
NB: How long were you stationed at Ludford? In total.
GB: Probably about a year. Yes. About a year because by the time we got there and then we did a few ops and, but our last op, believe it or not was on Berchtesgaden on April the 25th which is Anzac Day. Which is the real Memorial Day for New Zealanders and it happened to be the last operation that Bomber Command took. Which was bombing Hitler’s headquarters.
NB: Do you remember your first op? How you felt and where was it? Can you —
GB: Well my first op [pause] I think I’ll leave that one [laughs]
NB: Ok.
GB: It’s embarrassing because I’d been out to see my girlfriend the night before.
NB: Right.
GB: And I had to get a taxi back to do my first op [laughs]
NB: An auspicious start.
GB: It was. Yes. Especially if you had to get a taxi and get police permission for the petrol, you see.
NB: Oh dear.
GB: And so but I did get back and I had had a couple of hours sleep before we went out on our first op. But much to our sorrow but delight it was scrubbed about halfway across the North Sea.
NB: Right. And was, was that the whole op or —
GB: Yes. The whole.
NB: Right.
GB: We were ordered to turn around. Drop our cookie into the North Sea.
NB: Right.
GB: And then come back home.
NB: Ok. So are there any ops in that period that are particularly memorable for you? Stick out?
GB: Quite a lot. We did Heligoland and Potsdam. Hanover and all sorts of places like this. But at that stage of course, being the end of the war there wasn’t very much opposition. And I won’t say it was pleasurable, and it wasn’t because there were plenty of night fighters around still. But it was not nearly the bad conditions that Bomber Command had had in 1943 and ’44.
NB: No. No. And what about your, your crew? Can you tell me some of, something about your crew?
GB: The crew were four New Zealanders and the four main crew members were New Zealanders. The pilot, navigator, the wireless operator and the bomb aimer all New Zealanders. We became naturally great friends. There are only two of us left now. And three RAF boys — the two gunners and the engineer. And they’ve all gone as well. So out of those seven there are only two survivors now.
NB: How did you crew up?
GB: We went to a place fairly close to Leicester and a whole lot of navigators were pushed there. Pilots. Every, every crew. There were a lot of navigators. A lot of pilots and this type of thing and we met there, and they said, ‘Right, we’re giving you a week to crew up.’ And there were two commissioned new Zealanders in the mess. So naturally we got together. And then he, the pilot, knew the wireless operator because he’d already been decorated for pulling out a, a chap out of a burning plane in Canada and got a BEM for it. So we thought if he could do it once he could maybe do it again [laughs] So he got it. And then he had a great friend who later became our bomb aimer. So there were four new Zealanders sort of naturally graduated. But we didn’t know anybody in the, on the RAF side. So after five or six days we were actually allocated the two gunners and the engineer. Or not the engineer. He joined us later.
NB: And then straight back to Ludford Magna?
GB: No. We did all sorts of places.
[Repeats 7:28 — 14:46]
GB: About two other airfields before we went to Ludford.
NB: And what were the conditions like on the ground at Ludford because I’ve heard it described as something else?
GB: It was a strange one. The village was right in the middle of the airfield. And all the billets were on one side of the village and the airfield was on the other. So for us to go from our billets to, to, say where we were going to be flying. We had to go right across the village and meet all the people and so on.
NB: And did you, did you find the reception when you got into camp from the villagers was —?
GB: Superb
NB: Really?
GB: Ah yes. They were. I cannot speak. They hadn’t, more hardy about that because they’d do anything for us, you know. And of course the girls were superb.
NB: Was there, was there a lot of romance on —?
GB: A lot. A lot of romance. Yes.
NB: Yes. And social life because obviously —
GB: A lot of us of course, we went away. I found my social life was at a place called Gainsborough.
NB: Right.
GB: And so I used to go there quite a bit. I don’t know why. But later on it was great because she became my wife and we had three lovely kids.
NB: Good. And when did you first meet? Soon after you arrived at Ludford Magna or had you been there a while?
GB: Oh not very long after I’d been arrived at Ludford. I think probably a couple of days.
NB: That quick. Well it was obviously meant to be.
GB: [laughs]It was meant to be.
NB: And so do you know, I know you kept in touch with some of your crew afterwards, but do you know what they went on to do?
GB: Yes. The pilot, strangely enough became a qualified plumber.
NB: Right.
GB: I was very surprised to hear that he was working for Air New Zealand.
NB: Right.
GB: You see. So I thought, oh flying one of these big jets or something around the place. And I came, and I was very surprised to find that he was a pen pusher making sure that everybody had the right number of bog papers [laughs]
NB: Oh dear.
GB: But he was a marvellous bloke.
NB: Yeah.
GB: And oh gosh, and we could not have had a nicer bloke or, and not only a nice bloke but an extremely competent and very — well, he never panicked at all. He was just the perfect pilot to have.
NB: Right. And I know you were involved in Operation Manna.
GB: Yeah.
NB: When we spoke before.
GB: Yeah.
NB: And you said that that stuck very clearly in your mind.
GB: Yes well I did four trips on that. And it was marvellous because the boys, especially the pilots had a wonderful time flying over from England over to Holland. Because they were at last given full permission to fly as low as possible so they flew as low as possible. They were swell hopping.
NB: Right.
GB: Going up like this and swell hopping it. And one chap actually hit the water and broke his prop but we all had to back him up and say that that was done because an aircraft had dropped a bag of supplies on top of the aircraft as he was going in to land.
NB: Is that what they call an honesty of thieves? [laughs]
GB: He was an Englishman by the way. The New Zealanders wouldn’t have done that [laughs]
NB: No.
GB: No. No. No [laughs]
NB: And so do you know what were in the food parcels that you were dropping? Were there any —
GB: Yes. Because our bomb aimer, there was an little peephole going between his position and the bomb bay where all these parcels were. So he thought, I’d better see what these people are getting. So he opened one of the bags but of course he put them all back.
NB: Ok. Yeah.
GB: Yes.
NB: I’m getting a feeling of the naughty side a bit.
GB: No, but you mustn’t. You must remember flying on ops was on occasions hellish. There was no question about it. You know there was aircraft going down. You could see them going down or blowing up. The shells exploding all around you and everything like this. But you had to, to get over that you had to accept that. But to get over that you had to — sometimes you made it a little bit naughty.
NB: Do you remember —
GB: In all sorts of ways.
NB: Somehow, I don’t find that difficult to believe.
GB: Yes.
NB: Do you, do you remember when you were on the other ops? Feeling fearful? Feeling scared? Or did you feel it wouldn’t happen to you?
GB: I think we all felt it would not happen to us. If we thought that we were going to be bumped off or shot down or anything like this we wouldn’t have gone. We all felt that we were bulletproof and that we’d automatically come through. And everybody felt that. Including the ones who were actually shot down.
NB: Yeah.
GB: Otherwise we would never have done it.
NB: No. Did you have any feelings about the results of what you were doing with the campaign? So, I mean, generally amongst the crews.
GB: We had no qualms whatsoever. Because we all remembered Coventry. We all remembered London. We all remembered the Germans had started the war anyway. And we all felt though that what we were doing was shortening the war and therefore we could all go home again.
NB: And after the war? I mean obviously there was, there was some blame laid at Bomber Command’s door.
GB: I personally feel that that was completely and, very strongly say that was completely out of order because it was war. And we had to win the war. And the only way that we could win the war was knocking the Germans out. And this to me was summarised with Chemnitz and what was the other one? The Dresden.
NB: Yeah.
GB: And I personally wasn’t on. My pilot was on Dresden but I wasn’t. But Dresden became the epitome of our almost war crimes and that has hurt every single member of people who have been in Bomber Command. Because, for one thing we found later on that that raid had been organised or requested by the Russians. They wanted, they did not want all those Germans escaping from Russia to get away and form up another army to fight the Russians again. They wanted as many of them to be killed as we could possibly do. And not only that we all at that stage feared that the Germans were not going to, even though they had agreed to sort of finish the war in mainland Germany there was a huge feeling that they were going to set up a gorilla type of war in the Bavarian Alps. And again all of these people should have been stopped from getting down to the Alps and so we had no compunction in going over there and doing what the Germans had done to Coventry and places like that. Doing it to Dresden.
NB: Ok. Obviously there are some highlights in that you met your wife while you were there and you travelled but what would you have said was your lowest moment whilst you served?
GB: The lowest moment? [pause] I don’t think we had any low moments. Obviously, we all knew we had to do the job. We all were keen as mustard to do the job as quickly and professional as we possibly could. Obviously, some of the raids were worse —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABibbyG150521
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoff Bibby
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:25:15 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nicky Barr
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-21
Description
An account of the resource
Squadron Leader Geoff Bibby grew up in New Zealand and transferred from the army into the Royal New Zealand Air Force in 1943. After training in New Zealand and Canada, he flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
crewing up
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
RAF Ludford Magna
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/347/3515/PWatsonPHC1701.2.jpg
1a6dd5111450a588dbfdd0228f3bae68
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/347/3515/AWatsonPHC170123.1.mp3
73879fdb831b3fe83b9751209444c0e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Watson, Peter
Peter Henry Clifford Watson
Peter H C Watson
P H C Watson
P Watson
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Peter Henry Clifford Watson (182029 Royal Air Force), his log book and a photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 101 and 115 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Watson, PHC
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: OK [pause] OK, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jean MacCartney and the interviewee is Peter Watson. The interview is taking place at Mr Watson’s home in Clontarf, New South Wales on the 23rd of January 2017. Peter, you mentioned you were born in 1924 but I don’t know quite where. Where was it?
PW: I was born in South Wales, a very — in a little village near Cardiff.
JM: Right, and did you do all your education in Wales?
PW: I did part of it in Wales and then I went to King’s School, Worcester for four years. That’s a cathedral school in Worcester.
JM: Right and does that mean you were part of the choir there?
PW: I was. Well, yes, a little bit. I was what? I used to sing in the choir.
JM: Right, right and was that the, the latter part of your education?
PW: Er, well actually when the war started they evacuated the whole school to North Wales for one year and then they brought us back to Worcester, and then I finished my, er, matriculation in 1941, and left the school there and then started a training to become an engineer until I was old enough to fly.
JM: Right, OK, and so that was until 1943?
PW: ’43.
JM: When you enlisted?
PW: Yes.
JM: And whereabouts did you do your enlistment?
PW: We did it in London.
JM: Ah, the London Recruitment Centre?
PW: Yes.
JM: Right, OK.
PW: There were about a hundred of us in the, in the one intake and, er, I might mention every one of us wanted to be a pilot. We all wanted to fly Spitfires and shoot down Germans, and get Victoria Crosses, and then end up with a romance with the group captain’s daughter but it didn’t happen that way [slight laugh]. And after a couple days we were told, whether we liked it or not, we had to be trained as air gunners because there was a surplus of pilots and a shortage of air gunners, and that was the last thing we wanted, but we volunteered to do what we were told and that’s what we did.
JM: Yes, indeed and where did you do that? After you, you had your recruitment in London and then after that where did you go?
PW: Yes. We went to, I went to Bridlington in Yorkshire, just for ground training then flying training started at Stormy Down at South Wales for several weeks. And then we went to a thing called an OTU, um, Operating Training Unit, in Tilsbury [?] near Sal— , near Sal— near, er, oh dear, North Wales anyhow. And then we crewed-up and then finally went to a four — four-engine — you were trained on two-engine aircraft, then you finally became a crew member and a seven member crew was formed at the, er, four-engine training centre in Lincolnshire.
JM: Right.
PW: And then because we — when we were sent to our first squadron, er, it was known as a special duties squadron because we carried an eighth member of a crew. Instead or seven, we had eight. The eighth member being a German-speaking person, who had radio equipment, who was carried on board our planes to interfere with the German night fighter system.
JM: Right, so this is 101 Squadron?
PW: 101 Squadron.
JM: And this is in February ’44.
PW: Yes. Ludford Magna.
JM: Yes, yes and because that had the ABC equipment, um, is that right?
PW: Airborne Cigar.
JM: Yes, so that was, um, so you, you were in part of those flights there then?
PW: Yes, I did, I did I think it was thirteen or fourteen flights from Ludford Magna and then we were selected to go and form a new squadron, essentially with Polish airmen, at a place called Faldingworth, about twelve miles away, and we finished the rest of our tour with 300 Squadron.
PM: Right, so, um, how long, how — in the 300, 300 Squadron is the Polish Squadron is it?
PW: Yes.
PM: So how long were you in that squadron for?
PW: I think, I think it was about three months between the time that we’d — I think we’d done, I’m not sure, about fourteen or fifteen at Ludford Magna before we went to Faldingworth and we ended up doing the balance of thirty three trips with, with 300 Squadron.
PM: Right, OK. And so that took you through then to 1945?
PW: Well after, after we had finished our tour we had to be grounded for six months and I was selected for some reason or other to, to go to 460 Australian Squadron at Binbrook, in a non- non-operational unit, because they were doing a special — they were trying to introduce radar operated rear turrets in Lancasters and Halifaxes and’ um, I was part of that study to introduce that and it was called Operation Village Inn. But after that, after six months, I got orders to go back on operations so I went down to Number 3 Group in, in, um, Cambridge, and I forget the county’s name of Cambridge but it was Cambridge, and I did two daylight trips with, with 115 Squadron and then the war ended and then we went on to, er, taking food to Holland and then bringing back prisoners of war from France and Italy.
JM: Right, so that was all part of 115?
PW: Yes.
JM: Yes, right. So 115 was probably what? From about May, May ’45 was it?
PW: Yes, yes, 115, September ’45 until, er, September ’46.
JM: Right.
PW: And then, um, funnily enough I went to Leconfield for a two-week training course where your, your father was but by then it was just a post-war training and they were doing training for gunnery leaders, and then I was promoted to gunnery leader of Number 15 Squadron at Wyton. And that’s where I stayed until I was demobbed but I was a flight lieutenant by then. But then at the end, as a post-war economy measure, every war-time officer was reduced in rank from flight lieutenant to flying officer [slight laugh] so I was finally discharged as a flying officer.
JM: Mm, OK. So that was a little thumbnail sketch of, of your service there.
PW: Yes.
JM: Perhaps we’ll go back and, um, just take a look at each of those three sort of postings. What? You said you had about fifteen missions in 101, um, was that more over Ger— over Germany particularly or —
PW: Yes, essentially Germany and then —
JM: And was your, was your plane dropping bombs as well as jamming or —
PW: Oh yes. We were essentially a bomber but we just carried this extra man and we were honour bound never to talk to him about his job, even though he ate and slept with us, we were honour bound not to because of the secrecy but the aircraft were very obviously — you could tell which aircraft they were because they had big aerials forward of the mid-upper turret and, you know, they could pick us off easily and what we didn’t know at the time was that the Germans were able to hone in on our equipment. We didn’t know this until after the war. They were able to hone in on our equipment and pick us off and, er, hence our losses at 101 were much higher than the average. In fact, I think it was Nuremburg, which was the worst of all the night flights, when we lost 108 aircraft, 96 over Germany and I think twelve over England afterwards and, er, it was, it was a dreadful night but there we are. But yes, that was it.
JM: So, um, that meant, obviously, you were going into some pretty densely populated areas I presume?
PW: Yes, yes, yes. Places like Nuremburg, Munich, Augsburg, Schweinfurt, Brunswick, Berlin. I didn’t do Berlin but Berlin was one of the very populous, very common areas. Hamburg in particular, Kiel canal, where, incidentally we went to bomb the martialling yards but, er, accidentally dropped our bombs a little bit away and it, it landed on the German battleship the Admiral Von Scheer and sunk it. So, I mean how lucky were we? And when I say ‘we’ — the squadron. One of the planes from the squadron dropped its bombs in the wrong spot and sank the Von Scheer.
JM: It wasn’t your actual plane?
PW: No.
JM: Right, OK, well so instead of getting a bit of a bollocking they would — there was a bit of a cheer I suspect.
PW: Yes. Yes.
OK. Yes. Yes. So, um, OK. Then when you moved from 101 to 300 did your whole crew move together?
PW: Yes, yes.
JM: So your whole seven stayed together.
PW: The eighth member stayed at 101.
JM: Eight. OK and was your crew, were all of those eight people, er, English or did you have any other —
PW: We had one Canadian.
JM: One Canadian.
PW: Yes and our special operator later on was, was an Aussie, yes, called Beutel, B E U T E L, Graham Buetel. Yes.
JM: Aha and then in your — you had a number of missions in the Polish Squadron? What sort of — was the emphasis — was there any particular action?
PW: We were just, we were just part of the main force but we didn’t leave 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna until two weeks after D-Day, and D-Day was a particularly interesting project for us because we, we were put onto a special flight to try and imitate a naval fleet going from Dover to Calais to try and make the Germans think that that was where the invasion was going to take place, and we went round in, in sort of square circles for about six or eight hours to try to imitate — dropping window stuff to make the Germans think that that might have been where the invasion was taking place. Whether it succeeded we never found out.
JM: So that was still part of 101?
PW: No, er, that was part of 101 and it was the last but one I think before we left, yes.
JM: Right OK and then in, um, Polish Squadron just normal —
PW: Just normal.
JM: Normal routine flights there. Day and night or just —
PW: No, all night stuff and we took a lot of Polish people as extras on flights prior to them taking over the — on their own flights. You see, the Ger— the Polish airmen were complete for one air— for a particular aircraft. It would all be Polish, but before they did that we used to take them as second dickies and things like that, to get them trained and also to control them because they were a very uncontrollable lot, in the sense that their, their hatred for Germany was so great that there were rumours, and I think it happened, that after bombing in Germany they would go down at ground level and try and shoot at all the searchlights with the rear gunners but that was the sort of emotion that existed on that station and it was very prevalent.
JM: Yes so —
PW: But mostly I think of my flying is with 101 because that’s when the dramas started and I did have a couple of dramas.
JM: As in?
PW: Well, I was extremely lucky. In the first flight that we made we got attacked by a Focke-Wulf 190 over the, over the target, and we got hit a little bit and we hit him a little bit and he came back for a second attack on us. We fired at him again and we saw him — well, we saw him going past at the side of us after he flew to one side and another aircraft watching from the other side, flying parallel with us, saw the pilot bail out, so we were unofficially given the credit of having destroyed him, and it was a particularly nasty experience because we also got, we were hit in many places but none of us were personally hurt and we, we thought after that flight we wouldn’t last more than two or three more flights because it was so horrendous, you know. But then the second night, that was at a place called Schweinfurt. And we went to bomb Schweinfurt because they had a lot of production of ball bearings at factories which they needed for the for U-boats, and the U-boats were giving curry in the Atlantic at the time, and they thought if we could bomb the ball bearing factories the U-boats couldn’t go to sea and they couldn’t sink our ships. That was the sort of theory. But the second night was a night where I’ll always remember because over the target we were coned by searchlights. There would have been fifty of them at least and, er, an explosive, a shell, blew, blew us underneath us whilst we were on our bombing run and it completely destroyed all our hydraulics, and also we were hit with another bomb dropping from an aircraft above and we had about six feet of our wing tip broken off. And luckily our pilot, who was wonderful, managed to keep us stable and fortunately all our engines were OK, but we ended up with our bomb doors open with, with some incendiaries that we couldn’t release and, and we couldn’t come back and land normally. We had to come back and belly land because we had no wheels to put down, we had no flaps and we didn’t know even whether we’d make it because we, when we hit the ground we had all these incendiaries on board, but fortunately they dropped off and went off like fireworks while we skidded on the ground for about half a mile and then finally came to a stop, but we, we never thought that we would survive that night but we did. And, do you know, one of the first people to turn up afterwards while we waited for a crew wagon to pick us up was the Salvation Army canteen and they offered us cups of tea and cigarettes. Oh, they were wonderful and, er, but the emotional part of that is that I had to go into hospital for a short while and while I was there my crew went off with another gunner in my place and they never came back. Well they came back but they crash landed and were all killed so there was I, on my own, and the thing that, I suppose emotionally, and I never forget and it’s still with me, er, we shared a Nissan hut with two crews, our crew and another crew, so after my crew disappeared I was the only the one there with the other eight members of another crew. Two days later they disappeared so I was one, one person in a room of sixteen, in the middle of winter with nothing else to do, and the emotion, and knowing that all your crew were dead. And, er, you didn’t have group therapists in those days. You just had to put up with it and that’s sort of stuck with me ever since [sniff] mm.
JM: Goodness me and, and then they expected you to go off and just happily join a new crew and get on with it.
PW: Well, once, once you were — you were seen as a jinx. If you were a survivor of a dead crew nobody wanted you, er, but there were so many times when crews needed other people that I was eventually put with another crew and within a few days we were all good mates and I, we spent the rest of our tour as a crew very happily. Yes.
JM: And is that the crew — and that crew was also all —
PW: They were all English.
JM: English. Which crew was it that the —
PW: Well the pilot of my first crew was a Sergeant Roy Dixon and, er, I didn’t know until later that the night that he died his commission came through as a pilot officer. He was just a sergeant before and he also got the Distinguished Flying Medal. And I have a photograph here of our aircraft when it landed I could give to you if you like.
JM: That would be very interesting to see that.
PW: Incidentally, in the photograph because of security reasons they ob— obliterated the two aerials.
JM: Of course yes, yes.
PW: Yes. That was, er, that was life but it was tough because our losses and, in fact, at Nuremburg we lost five aircraft. That’s a lot of aircraft in one squadron.
JM: That’s a lot. That’s a huge amount, yes. At least from all those subse— those first two missions were the first two that really —
PW: Blooded us.
JM: Yes, well and truly, and then from there on in you, you and your crew stayed intact for the rest of the course of the — all your other subsequent missions, which is so pleasing given such a horrendous, horrendous start for you. Yes indeed. And, um, and then on that basis I guess nothing compared with those early experiences from 300 and 115 really?
PW: No, no, no, they were much easier. I mean, you couldn’t go on and you couldn’t get away with what we got away with there more than once I’m sure, but, er, and luckily by the time we landed from the flight, because we were flying with our bomb doors open and no flaps and so forth we landed when, after everyone else had gone, had landed. Sometimes, or very often, when you got back to your aerodrome there were twenty other aircraft waiting to land and you hung around for perhaps an hour before it was your turn to land but by the time we got home we were about an hour late —
JM: You were a straggler.
PW: And we went straight in but we weren’t allowed to land on the runway. We had to land on the grass which really was good because it was wet and soaking and —
JW: Made it slippery [unclear]
JM: And flame-wise it was good and we didn’t — we anticipated we might blow up because of the bombs we still had on board but they dropped off instantly, fortunately, and by the time we came to a halt — and I don’t think there was much left in the petrol tanks [slight laugh]. But on our first trip I might have mentioned that the — when we were attacked he hit one of our fuel tanks and set it on fire but we were able to extinguish it with an extinguisher system that they had in the aircraft, which is wonderful. And one of the big, one of the big loss reasons — there were two reasons we lost a lot of aircraft, one was collisions, because when you had seven or eight hundred aircraft all going within half an hour of bombing a place you had to be more, more careful than ever of bumping into anyone else and the only times you could see them was when it was moonlight. Other times, all you could see was the red, red exhausts. The exhausts of the Merlin engines are red hot and the only thing, that’s the only thing you could see on a flying, plane flying alongside you, but you had the rear gunner, the mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator and the bomb aimer all looking because they didn’t have anything else to do until they got to the targets, you see. I mean, the bombers would — the air gunners were looking for fighters but the others were also looking for fighters but as well to make sure you weren’t bumping into any aircraft and we had a couple of near misses. But that was the way things were.
JM: That’s right. Right and with, with this crew, um, you stayed together right through in 300 and 115. Did you stay together for the post-war stuff as well?
PW: Yes. Yes. The war finished in, well in May and then in August we were going to go out of the Far East because Japan was still, still active in the Far East but then in August of that year the war ended in Japan, so we never went but we were kept as a squadron. The Air Force kept a fairly strong force of Lancasters and Halifaxes for at least two years and one of the reasons, probably never written in history, but England was frightened of Russia coming west and we, I think the Government, decided we’d better stay powerful, so I didn’t get de-mobbed for two years after the war had finished. But by then of course I was a gunnery leader in 15 Squadron but we had very, very little to do and very boring in the end.
JM: Yes, so you were actually doing what? Training flights or —
PW: Training flights and things like that. And, er, when the immediate war finished in Europe though we were quite busy. We would fly to France and pick up released prisoners of war. The Americans flew them from wherever in Germany, and Italy, and around there to France and then the Royal Air Force used the Lancs and Halifaxes to fly them back to England. And I, I think we had seventy thousand prisoners we managed to get back. Then after that we flew out to Italy to bring similar prisoners of war who’d been stuck in Italy. We flew them back to England. And we loved those trips because we’d never been abroad and it was the first time we’d flown into a place where it was really hot weather and we could buy apricots and peaches. [laugh]
JM: Because again you were flying in, in spring summer sort of by this stage so —
PW: Yes and really the gunners were really only like only flight lieutenants, yes.
JM: Because you actually had no —
PW: Nothing to do except being sort of stewards for the people and of course it was very uncomfortable where they could sit down in the aircraft wherever they could find a spot.
JM: Well that’s right because I presume they tried to put as many people as possible onto those flights to maximise the, the value of each trip so to speak.
PW: Yes. That’s right. It took about five or six hours to get from Italy back to England and that’s a long time for people not in very good condition.
JM: Well because a lot of them would have had injuries, um, sickness and being in prisoner of war camps they would have been in pretty poor shape generally I would assume.
PW: And, er, quite a lot of them had been originally before the war out in India and they were on their way back to Europe in 1940, ‘41 I guess, and they got caught in North Africa and from there they were taken prisoner by the Germans and sent to Italy, so some of them hadn’t seen England since 1935.
JM: Goodness me.
PW: Yes and there was one, there was one old tough old fella there and we put him up in the nose so he could see the white cliffs of Dover and we flew — he started crying. He couldn’t, couldn’t resist. It was very emotional.
JM: He couldn’t not [emphasis].
PW: No.
JM: Goodness me. When you went did you — was it like a day trip for you in as much in that you went straight back in, loaded the servicemen, and then flew straight back out again or did you fly in and have a day off?
PW: Oh we always had a day off.
JM: Day off, right, OK. So you actually got to see the immediate surrounds of the airfields where you flew in then?
PW: Yes, yes.
JM: What memories do you — any particular experiences that stand out there?
PW: [laugh] Funnily enough, funnily enough, um, the first time we went in it was a place called Pomigliano and it was very much a basic aerodrome, and on the end of the runway was a local road, and when we went in the first time we saw a horse and cart [slight laugh] going across just as we were going in and we missed him fortunately. That’s one thing I remember. The other thing was that, you know, being young and, and flippant, we were only what? 19 or 20 years old. We all liked to smile at the local girls but they all had to be chaperoned and, er, they would always have a mother or father or a brother with them so we had to be very careful there. The other thing is that the fruit that we had never seen before, oh it was beautiful and, er, also, you wouldn’t believe it, but even then the, the Italians were flogging watches, you know, wrist watches, and we’d never seen, we’d never seen this sort of post-war stuff that the Italians were doing and, er, funnily enough, and I suppose it’s OK to say this, but our navigator had a girlfriend and he bought her a watch, and because of customs finding out, he put the watch inside a condom and then put it inside an oil filter in the aircraft until we’d got back to base. So whether, whether he got oil in the watch I don’t know but that was one of the funny things that happened. You were asking for unusual memories and that was one of them [slight laugh]
JM: Yes, gosh that’s — it would have been interesting to know whether he got it out in one piece or not undamaged. Yes and so you had those flights and then subsequent to that you had the Manna flights as well?
PW: Yes.
JM: And how many runs would you have done?
PW: I think we only did only about three.
JM: Right.
PW: Yes, and the first time we went over we had to come back because the airfield or the — I think it was a sports ground, where it had been arranged that we should go and drop, it was full of people and we realised that we would, we’d be bombing people with tins of flour and potatoes and things like that, so we came back and waited until the Germans cleared the thing and then we went in and dropped the food. We weren’t very accurate because we’d never been trained and one lot went into the greenhouses. That didn’t appeal to them very much. But you saw people on, on the roof tops waving sheets and clothes and things just to welcome us because we had to go in at ground level. And one thing that I remember one of the last trips we made was on the VE, er, VE night when there was to be a big celebration in the, in the mess, have a party to celebrate the end of the war, and we had flown so low that we evidently hit the branch of a tree because when we got back we found our bomb door, when we opened it, had a big scar in it and it was a piece of tree in it and so our ground crew were very upset because they were going to miss the party because they had to repair it overnight [slight laugh]. Isn’t it funny how you remember these little things.
JM: Yes, absolutely. And so were your trips there all to the same place in — when you were doing these drops?
PW: Yes.
JM: Which was where?
PW: It was Juvincourt in France and Pomigliano which is virtually I think Naples, in Italy. Yeah, they were was the only two places we went.
JM: The Manna drops I’m talking about.
PW: Oh, the Manna drops. No, I think, I think two were to The Hague. I think one was Amsterdam or Rotterdam. It’s very vague now, yes. I have a photograph of, of stuff being dropped whilst we were doing training in England. We did train for a few days to know how to do it and I’ve got a photograph if it’s any use to you.
JM: Yes, we’ll have a look at that afterwards. Thank you. That would be very interesting. And so then, um, with 115 I believe there were a couple of notable planes in that squadron. Were you ever, um, did you ever hear, were you ever close to any of those pl— notable planes or just —
PW: Well, it was an unusual squadron, um, because with the development of radar we were able to, we were able to go and bomb and have the bombs released from a ground station instead of ourselves and we were able then — I think our last trip, I think it was to Hamburg or somewhere and we were able to bomb half a mile from the front line British troops, and there was a bridge or something they wanted bombed and, and, er, I can tell you now. Can you just pause for a second? [pause] To The Hague and one to Rotterdam. That is food dropping. Then we went to Juvincourt to pick up prisoners, ex-prisoners or war, two trips there, and the last was to Brussels and then we went to Eng— to Europe after, to Italy, Operation Dodge it was called. We went to — oh, Bari but it was actually I think it was Pomigliano. Bari is, is the capital of — it’s on the Adriatic side of Italy. And, er, after that that was the end of our really useful work.
JM: But you were saying about [unclear] the, um, with the bombing with the — from the ground the — that’s using the G coordinates is it?
PW: It was called, um, it was called G2 I think. We flew in formation of three and, er, only one of the aircraft had the equipment on board and as soon as he dropped his bombs we, we dropped visually on his bombs. We saw his going. We knew they were due to go and as soon as he felt his go he pressed a button and we would release ours.
JM: Right and which —
PW: Hamburg I think it was.
JM: Hamburg. [background noise of pages turning] I’m trying to think back. ’45.
PW: Yes. 115. Just April ’45. Just one month before the end of the war. ‘Intense accurate heavy flak,’ I notice here. So that was at Bremen, not Hamburg, I beg your pardon.
JM: Right.
PW: Bremen and we were damaged by flak. It was very, very accurate. But sometimes, you know, you’d feel a bump then — well we didn’t knew where it came from but when you got back home you might find a few holes in your fuselage and, er, on one occasion, it’s rather amusing, the only bloke who got damaged was our bomb aimer and he got, he got damaged. He got a piece of shrapnel into his bottom [slight laugh], not seriously, but he was the only one who was hurt. But frostbite was a problem for the gunners and that was what put me into hospital, um, when they went off with another gunner. It was at Ludford Magna. I’d got a lot pain. It wasn’t severe but it was enough to stop me because you had to be one hundred per cent fit before they’d allow you to fly. If there was anything slightly wrong with you they used one of the spares to take your place. Particularly important was the breathing because, you see, up at above ten thousand feet you had to go onto oxygen, and one of the reasons why the losses were so great with rear gunners was it took so long to get out of a turret, if you had to get out quickly, because if he was on oxygen he’d have to disconnect, then find a bottle of, a bottle of portable oxygen, connect that up then [emphasis] get out of his — and what? He had four pairs of gloves on and, and trying to get out was hopeless. I would say two or three minutes at the earliest he could need to try to get out a rear turret and in the meantime, of course, by then it could be too late. And on that trip to Augsburg that I mentioned we got hit, as well as damaging our hydraulics, er, the bottom floor of the aircraft was blown out and the rear door, which we used for getting in and out of it, was blown out as well so how we, how we got back I don’t know to this day. And he, and Sergeant Roy Dixon, our pilot, he was all of twenty years old. You know, when you think of it —
JM: Amazing, amazing.
PW: So I, so I have a lucky star.
JM: You have indeed and were you a mid-upper gunner most of the time?
PW: Most of the time I was mid upper, on a few trips I was rear gunner. Most of the time I was mid- upper, yes, yes.
JM: So you would have been able to —
PW: Oh that’s an easier place to get in and out of. It doesn’t quite get so bitterly cold because you got a little bit of heat coming back. The people at the front were warmed by the engines. They had a warming system and so forth but the, the rear gunner was the coldest of all.
JM: That’s right.
PW: And I might mention one of the big losses was that the Germans introduced a very clever idea, instead of firing from wing guns, they put a forty millimetre cannon into the fuselage pointing upwards, forty-five degrees, and they would come up underneath and fire at us, and a forty mill— cannon you only need a few things to set the petrol on fire and that would be the end of the aircraft but, you see, we couldn’t see them because we couldn’t look down. The Americans had a belly gunner but we didn’t. We had nothing. We were blind. That’s right.
JM: So that’s why quite a lot of losses were due to that experience.
PW: Yes.
JM: Yes and with, um, your crew after the war did you maintain contact?
PW: No, no. Well you see we came out to Australia two years after I retired from the — well I was demobbed from the RAF and, er, they were all scattered all over the place. We sent Christmas cards but they eventually disappeared. I never kept up after I left, left England in May ’49.
JM: May ’49.
PW: With a three month old baby.
JM: Right. OK.
PW: And when we got on board, on board the migrant ship, the people at the top of the gangway they said, ‘OK Mr Watson you go down that end of the ship and Mrs Watson and the baby you go up that end.’ So three weeks of the trip we were separated. Of course we met during the day but at night — but of course instead of two people in the cabin we had four because they were — anyway we were very lucky to have got that migrant ship, very lucky.
JM: And that was May ’49, so coming, stepping back a little bit, so you were demobbed in, um, ’47 so between, er, from the time you were demobbed did you work or —
PW: Yes, I went back to the company that was training me as an engineer.
JM: Where was that?
PW: In Cardiff.
JM: Cardiff right.
PW: Yes and [slight laugh] I was earning, I was earning five shillings a week, would you believe it. It’s one of those things, like an apprenticeship. I think they called it an articled pupillage? Anyhow, my boss was a wonderful man because in the meantime I had fallen in love with a lovely girl and wanted to get married but on going back to getting back to getting fifteen shillings a week or five shillings a week I couldn’t do that and he smiled at me and said, ‘Look, you get married and I’ll see that you’re alright.’ And he did [slight laugh] and I was with that girl for fifty-eight years and she died in 2004.
JM: Right, right.
PW: Yes and her best friend had lost her husband, and she and her late husband, and Audrey my wife and I had been friends for forty years, and when Audrey died Ruth, the other, the widow, and I got together and we’re together now. And it’s been twelve very happy years.
JM: Very good.
PW: And that’s her there.
JW: That’s her there. That’s right. And so you got married and then made the decision to come to Australia. What prompted that decision?
PW: Er, well first of all I had developed asthma. I’d had a little bit of it as a kid but it came, it came back as a post-war thing I think and somebody said, ‘Why don’t you go to a warm climate?’ Not, not only that I was in an industry that was going to be nationalised, and everyone was very depressed, and even in 1949 rationing was still on. You still had to ration petrol and that sort of thing. And Audrey, my wife, had an uncle, who was very prominent in Australia, and he came to London on a conference and while he was there he came down to see his sister, who was my — was Audrey’s mother, and said, ‘Look if you come to Australia I can assure you we can get you a job and we need new migrants.’ That’s how it all started and never looked back.
JM: Never looked back. No, so obviously —
PW: And our three-month old baby is now sixty-seven and we produced as Aussie but she died in a car accident when she was sixteen. It’s one of those awful things that you have to put up with. So that’s my story as an air gunner.
JM: Yes and that’s — and when you came, when you migrated did you come here to Sidney?
PW: No, sorry, we migrated to Perth.
JM: Perth right.
PW: Yes. We were there for seven years and then I got a job with Caltex Oil as an engineer and I was there for thirty-two years. Not in Perth but a couple of years after I joined them, er, they promoted me to a manager of an installation in Adelaide, and so we moved to Adelaide and we were there for ten years, and after penny died ( she was killed in Adelaide) the company said, ‘Why don’t you come to Sidney and start again.’ And my wife was a very plucky mother and she was fretting terribly and though she resisted coming she knew it was the best thing to do, so we did it, and that was 1967 and we’ve been here ever since.
JM: And did you come here to Contagh or — straight away?
PW: No we were three months in — the company had a flat in Martin Place, Martin, no not Martin. Oh I forget the name of it. Anyhow, Win—
JM: Oh, OK.
PW: And we were there —
JM: Market Street.
PW: Market Street. That’s it, yes. Right opposite the park.
JM: A brilliant park there.
PW: Yes and whilst we were there Audrey was looking for a place. She was the searcher for a place to come and live and she was offered this place and it had been on the market for five months because, as you can appreciate, young people can’t afford to live here and old people don’t want it because it’s so steep but at the time you buy you never think you’re going to get old, do you? So anyhow we bought this place for, would you believe, thirty-five thousand dollars [laugh] but that’s how things were.
JM: That’s how things were back then. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right, yes. So right and as I say — well you just stayed with Caltex through to, until you finished?
PW: Well, I was sort of given a package. When computers came in and they wanted to get rid of numbers and all the oldies, I was fifty-nine by then, they said, ‘Would you please go.’ Sort of thing.
PW: So I retired from there and I started a business of my own which I’m still running.
JM: Oh OK, right. Oh very good, very good, and that’s just a sort of consultancy business I presume?
PW: Yes, yes. It’s to do with finance broking, yes, but for twelve years, the first twelve years after I retired, I actually had a pump agency for an American company and I eventually sold that and with the proceeds I started a broking company ,which I’m still running.
JM: Still running. Goodness me. And going right back to the very beginning when you enlisted, way back in ’43, what was the decision, was there any decision in particular that directed you to Air Force rather than Navy or Army?
PW: Yes, yes. I’d always, you know, wanted to fly and so you vol— put your name down as a volunteer and I guess they kept your name on until you were old enough to be called up. And, and they said, ‘Are you still keen?’ And I said, ‘yes’ and I went up to Birmingham for a test, a medical test, and back to Cardiff and they said, ‘You’re fit enough. We’ll call you up next week.’ And they did [laugh]. It was a great disappointed when we were told we had no choice.
JM: To be an air gunner.
PW: Nobody wanted to be an air gunner. They called it the lowest form of animal life in air crew. But still there we are.
JM: And what — you said you’d always wanted to fly. What was the attraction, of just being —
PW: Well I think, um, the Battle of Britain and the success of our, of our planes then inspired young people like myself and, you know, you were going through the romantic age of what do you want to be when you know you’ve got to go? And Air Force was more appealing than the Army or the Navy. Yes, my sister went into the Navy. Ruth, my partner, she was a WREN. Yes, so we were all in it. And, er, actually we were, before that, in 1941, it’s the only time that Cardiff ever got bombed badly. A few times, I remember there was one bad raid and I was stuck in Cardiff while the raid was on but it was OK. But then I had to walk back to my little village, which was seven miles away, in the dark because the power, all the power had gone off. When I got there I found all the windows and doors of my house had been blown in and what had happened was that a stray bomb, because I mean who would want to bomb a little village, a stray bomb the Germans had dropped about a hundred yards on the other side of the road, on the golf course that we faced, and it had blew it all in but my family had gone to the back of the house into an air raid shelter that they had there and they survived. But we had to evac— evacuate our house because it was unliveable until it was repaired. So we went down to a place called Llanelli, which is about fifty or hundred miles west of there, put up with some friends and eventually got back into our house.
JM: Right. And your family had built the air raid shelter in the garden?
PW: They actually converted the back veranda with steel and stuff and, you know, and when the raid was on it as only my mum and my sister. I was in Cardiff, and my eldest sister, and my elder sister sorry, and my two sisters and my mother and another cousin, who was expecting a baby, but she lived in London and came back to Cardiff, came down to Cardiff to have her baby because she thought it was safer and she ran into — but they survived.
PM: Yes, yes but even in Cardiff though and out, and I appreciate that you’re saying your village was seven miles out of Cardiff, but even then the, um, the normal procedure was to build some sort of — at that time was to build an air — some sort of shelter?
PW: Something safe. I think the main thing was with those sort of things was that falling beams from your house or your roof. You know, I mean, you hear of people hiding under the dining room table because that was protected but, um, and some people put an air raid shelter in their, in their garden, and the Government provided a galvanised iron sort of thing. It was a very easy thing to do but it was the safe, the safest thing you could do.
JM: Mm, yes. So that would have — that was just another sort of —
PW: And it was the only bomb that had ever dropped in the village. Because, you know, I would imagine the like, having the experience later on, you sometimes had the odd bomb that didn’t drop off and you went and released it and it didn’t matter where it fell so long as you got rid of it. So I think that’s probably what happened. But of course the local press said that they were after the, you know, they put all the experienced people have said, ‘Oh yes, well they knew something we didn’t.’ It was wonderful.
JM: Oh dear yes, yes, but as you say that was the only time that Cardiff was actually —
PW: Heavily, severely bombed as a city. Other times it had bits and pieces blown, er, thrown at it but this was the Baedeker [?] raid but it wasn’t successful in the sense that it wasn’t concentrated, it was spread out, but what had happened was that they — it had effected the power supply and everything was in dark and, you know, in January that’s really dark and when I had to walk home seven miles in complete darkness —
JM: And that was January ’43 was it or ‘42?
PW: ’43,
JM: ’43, yes.
PW: Sorry no, ’41, yeah, two years before I went — I was only a school boy.
JM: Right, right, so ’41. Mm, gosh. So that was a very, much of a little bit of a taste of what London was experiencing and all the other cities in England , so —
PW: Yes, yes. I think what had happened was that they stopped bombing London. I think they thought they couldn’t do any more with London and I think they were going to concentrate on shipping ports to try and starve England. That was — they really wanted to starve us into submission, you see, with their U-boats and they were very successful and very close to succeeding I think at times. But anyhow Cardiff is a port, you see. Cardiff is very much like Newport, our Newport here. They produce steel, they produce coal and about the same size but there you are.
JM: Yes, yes. That’s right. Yes, and in terms — you mentioned you didn’t maintain any contacts, er, long term ongoing contacts with your former crew members.
PW: No.
JM: Did you, were you aware of any associations, um, to link up with, you know, in Australia here at any time? Did you became a member of RSL or join in and then subsequently — about the only other organisation would have been the Odd Bods Association because you came here to Sidney in ‘67 I think so —
PW: Oh I’d been in the RSL right from day one and of course I joined 460 Squadron old boys here because although I didn’t operate from 460 I was sent to the Squadron and we used their aircraft for training on this thing called Village Inn. Yes, and actually for me it was six months of very easy living because I didn’t have to fly on operations. By then I was an officer and you were in — and Binbrook was a peacetime built ‘drome so the facilities were very, very good.
JM: Yes, so that was sort of a, a far more peaceful, less stressful, sort of period of time for you rather than the stress of the tour?
PW: Oh there was no stress at all whatsoever. In fact it was very easy living. That was the intention to try and defuse you and, you know, so — by the way my second pilot, who I joined after the raid when Roy Dixon was killed, we kept an association afterwards and he, he left Bomber Command and went into the Fleet Air Arm, and finally he was retired, and he came to my wedding in 1946, er, and but then he went out to North Africa doing something with the shipping company. We kept on for a little while but we’ve lost — I’d have liked to have kept — I regret now that I didn’t.
JM: But communication back then is not what it is today.
PW: No, I think that’s right.
JM: I mean between — only being able to post letters that took weeks to, to get anywhere and you couldn’t make phone calls back then because they cost so much money between Australia and, and the UK and, er, not everyone had a phone back then you know so —
PW: But I always felt though I’d like to have kept in touch with Roy Dixon’s family, you know, but, um, I mean I was — although I was in hospital I wasn’t serious in hospital but I was just not fit enough for flying because of this frostbite thing but, um, when Roy was killed in Norfolk he was able to be buried back in his home, near Doncaster I think it was, and but they wouldn’t allow me to go to his funeral because of the, ‘Oh, why you? Why are you alive and my son is dead?’ Sort of thing. I can understand that and of course you also had the problem with people who couldn’t take, couldn’t take it and they refused to fly after their first two or three missions. Their nerves went. And they were very, very severley treated by the Air Force. They were branded LMF, called lack of moral fibre, and they were sent off nasty jobs and got rid of.
JM: Very difficult times.
PW: Oh very difficult. I think fear, fear kept you together and, and doing the right thing by your mates, you know, kept you together.
JM: And I think, from what I understand, that’s what they used that glue to keep those crews together to, to ensure that moral support within the crew all the time.
PW: Well, one of the things that I haven’t mentioned but it is significant is, how do you choose your crew? And the simple answer is that, er, when you were, when you were — during training and you’d finished, everyone was ready to be put together as a crew, they put you all into a hangar one afternoon and there was probably hundreds of us, after we’d finished our training, the pilots, navigators, bomb aimers and so on and they said, ‘Listen boys you’ve got to form yourself into crews. Go and have a yarn with each other and see if you can match up friendships.’ And that’s all it was and it was the most successful system the Air Force had ever used because you were then with people who’d picked you or you picked them and, you mean, you might see one bloke and say, ‘I like that bloke. I wonder if he needs an air gunner.’ Or a pilot might say, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ If he liked the look of you and I said, ‘No’ or ‘Yes’ and that’s how it went, and you ended up with seven crew, seven members of the crew. One or two of them might have been officers but it didn’t matter. You were all crew together.
JM: Yes, that’s an interesting approach to the way —
PW: Some didn’t like it. It was a very sensible thing to do.
JM: Yes, well I guess it was from the point of view that they knew they were going to keep the crews together so it was important for the crews to each like each other.
PW: Yes, exactly, yeah. And that also built a camaraderie I suppose so you never let your crew down. You were always aware that without you they could be in trouble and each one, perhaps less with wireless operators and bomb aimers, but with pilots and navigators — well, if they didn’t have a good navigator you were in trouble because you’d get picked off. If you didn’t have a good air gunners who picked up enemy aircraft when you should be shooting at him, you know, you realise how important each job was. And, er, and also I found that we were attacked many times but if they find out that you, if you fired at them quickly they would leave you alone because it was awful for them to come in from behind with — you’ve got four guns in the rear turret and two in the mid-upper and you’re firing bout twelve rounds a minute and he’s got to fly into that to shoot at you so he never came in behind you, he came in on a curve. Now, if, if you saw him coming in on a curve and you timed it right and then you turned the same way as he was going he couldn’t get around to shoot you, so if you, if you kept your nerve and did the corkscrew at the right time he’d never get you. Interesting.
JM: Very interesting.
PW: But of course doing a corkscrew when you’re in several hundred aircraft, right?
JM: It was a little bit difficult.
PW: Collision was awful.
JM: Yes. Again comes back to the skill of the pilot and to the lesser extent the navigator.
PW: And more often as not he still had his load on board, his bombs. Never mind. I don’t know how many tons, I suppose four or five tons. I’ve no idea but it was a very heavy load.
JM: It was a very heavy load to take but Lancasters and Hallies were all carrying at that time.
PW: Your husband would be on Hallies I would think?
JM: Not my husband, my father.
PW: Pardon.
JM: My father.
PW: Your father rather.
JM: On Hallies yes. So, yes. So that’s some amazing memories that you’ve shared with me now. I really appreciate your time and, um, your thoughts.
PW: Well, thank you very much.
JM: But there’s probably time to wrap up at this stage. I presume there’s nothing else that you, no particular thoughts that you want to mention. Any other things that you — you mention you do speeches for Probus Clubs so was there anything from those speeches we haven’t covered or —
PW: No I think what we’ve covered is what, what formed my thing. A lot of people ask questions because they had parents or uncles or brothers who said, ‘Did you know Sergeant Jones, so and so.’ You know. But it was a big force, the bomber force, we didn’t — but there we are. I’ve had a very lucky life, very lucky, and lucky in that sense, you know, but and also I was one of the luckiest — we’re not recording now are we?
PM: Yes.
PW: Oh. Well it doesn’t matter but, er, one of the fortunate things was that during the depression of 1935 to ‘38, ‘39 my father retained his job, which was pretty good in those days, which enabled me to be given a decent education and that’s held me in good stead all my life. And that’s why I, one felt that with the education that I had, to have to be an air gunner was a bit degrading because, you know, we were all pipe-dreaming at the time about it. As I said before we wanted to fly Spitfires, the glamour of that, being shot at [laugh].
JM: Yes, indeed, indeed.
PW: But we made wonderful friendships and some of the bravery of some of those fellas was quite incredible. You’ve probably read about it all.
JM: Did any of the — your pilot wasn’t awarded any, um, given any award for bringing that plane home in the way he did?
PW: Yes. He was awarded the DFM but he didn’t know it until he died, you know, when he died it was the same day that his commission came through. So he got the DFM not the DFC. DFM is for non-commissioned, DFC was for commissioned. I got a Polish, Polish award. I forget what it was called now, something, er, but I never bothered with it but it was just some sort of service medal, you know, but there you are.
JM: Very good. Aright well I think we’ll wrap it up if you’re happy with that?
PW: Yes. What’s the time?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWatsonPHC170123, PWatsonPHC1701
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Watson
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:05:04 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jean Macartney
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-23
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Watson was born in South Wales and joined the Royal Air Force in 1943. He wanted to be a pilot but there was a surplus of pilots so he became an air gunner. He crewed-up and flew with 101 Squadron initially, a special duties squadron, and he explains they took an extra crew member who had radio equipment, Airborne Cigar, to interfere with German systems. He describes the first two flights being memorable; on the first night his aircraft was shot by a Focke-Wulf. On the second night, during a bombing trip to Schweinfurt the aircraft was coned by searchlights and was badly damaged by a shell and bomb being dropped from above. He also describes the squadron’s role in D-Day. He later transferred to 300 squadron, a Polish Squadron, to help train the Polish crews. He completed 33 operations. He describes the Operation Manna drops and Operation Exodus, picking up prisoners of war. He was eventually de-mobbed in 1947, by which time he was a Flight Lieutenant gunnery leader. He talks about the discomforts of flying but also the camaraderie of the crews and his distress at losing a crew. They didn’t return when they went on a flight without him. After being de-mobbed Peter returned to a job in engineering but emigrated to Australia in 1949 with his wife and baby.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Kiel Canal
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Christine Kavanagh
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
101 Squadron
115 Squadron
15 Squadron
300 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
crewing up
fear
Fw 190
Gee
grief
military ethos
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
radar
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Wyton
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3516/PWaughmanR1501.1.jpg
ea7d7d15f3b9f96826258b16ff6e1ae6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3516/AWaughmanR150401.2.mp3
55b93fe44cab5a19fbaf370e4af18862
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Waughman, Rusty
Russell Reay Waughman
Russell R Waughman
Russell Waughman
R R Waughman
R Waughman
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Russell Reay "Rusty" Waughman (1923 - 2023, 1499239 and 171904 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 101 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-01
2015-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Waughman, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Rusty Waughman. The interview is taking place at Mr Waughman’s home in Kenilworth on the 1st of April 2015. Mr Waughman was a Lancaster pilot in 101 Squadron.
RW: The old Lanc was a remarkable aircraft to fly. On one occasion I was going on a transport plan target. We were going to Hasselt in Belgium, Northern Belgium, German borders and we were about ten minutes from the target when another aircraft crashed side wards into us and the, the engineer, Curly was looking out of his window. Of course, it was dark and night time, cloud was about and all he saw was this aircraft just closing in and approaching and clout, clouted straight into the side of us. His engines cut through our bomb, bombing position when he was just six inches behind his feet. It cut off our starboard wheel. The mid upper turret which sticks up on top of the other [unclear]. It was Another Lancaster, a mid upper turret carved just behind our bomb bays, cut right through the fuselage, cut a big hole in the fuselage. Most of our tail was damaged. All our electrics went. And there we were, we were sitting on top each other all very closely linked and my controls was just like sitting on the ground, like driving on ice. I had no control of the aircraft whatsoever. The controls just went limp in my hand. I just couldn’t, couldn’t respond at all. It seemed like for, long time but it was only for seconds, only for seconds really and then the other aircraft fell away in pieces. I didn’t see it but the bomb, the navigator and the wireless op said they saw that his top canopy is all gone and he was just falling to pieces. We didn’t see any parachutes opening. So he crashed on the ground. We found we could still — didn’t affect our engines, we found we could still fly. So we got Norman, the bomb aimer, to check the bomb bays and the bomb doors. He’d lost control of the bombs but, er, all the bombs were still there and we could open the bomb doors and seeing as we were only ten minutes from the target so he said we’d press on and we’ll bomb the target. Not realising that having lost our electrics the master bombers had said don’t go in and bomb so we, we [laughs] roamed off on our own. We did hit the bomb, hit the target all be it, it was 4 ½ miles north of where we should of gone. But anyway we hit it, we hit a railway line and of course we had to come back and we were in such a hurry we realised that the major damage had happened at the back end of the aircraft. We realised later that two of the main [unclear] were damaged and had we had to take evasive action we could well of broken up. So I said to Harry, the rear gunner, come up front Harry, bring your parachute just in case but he said ‘no I’ll stop here and keep a lookout.’ These are the sort of lads they are. Anyway we had to do a crash landing when we got back and there was a casualty sadly that night. It was skidding towards the control tower in the dark and all the people in the control tower came out on the balcony to watch this idiot land his aeroplane and one of the little girls jumped back and sprained her ankle and that was our casualty for the night. But the reaction of the crews, I gave the crews the chance to bail out but they said no they wouldn’t do it and they all stuck with me and you realise as a pilot, and a very young pilot for having that reaction from the crew, you know, they were wonderful. And I was so lucky with the crew, all from various parts of life. School boys, council workers, a gunner, myself as I was a little, I was student.
AP: And the age group, average age?
RW: Yeah.
AP: Your age?
RW: Yeah. Well many, many years later for our eightieth birthday we had a reunion in Lincoln. They were sitting in the pub and about four or five of us were sitting round and he said we’ve all had our eightieth birthday. When’s your eightieth birthday Alec and he said it’s not for another two years yet. So he actually joined us when he was seventeen and he was operating with us when he was eighteen. Mind you I was getting on a bit, I was twenty, the bomb aimer was nineteen he had his twentieth birthday, the engineer had just had his twentieth birthday. The navigator was eighteen, Taffy was nineteen, twenty. My mid upper gunner, he was the old man of the crew, he was twenty-six and Harry the rear gunner he was twenty and but you know, it’s, it’s as though we all gelled and we all got on so well together. So much so that we still meet even now. There’s five of us left, our two gunners and the special duty operator had died but there’s five of us left and we still meet every year. And we’ve kept this going all these years and it’s been a wonderful experience. And like most of the crews you end up like a band of brothers. Yes, when you, when you got up in the morning and had your breakfast which was fairly relaxed because most of our, well all of our operations were at night so we were either sleeping late or having a normal day but when you went up to the crew room and looked at the notice board, there on the notice board was pinned the battle order and that, you looked to see if your name was on the battle order. If you saw your name on the battle order you went and changed your underwear. It was a very, tense, tense little situation and just seeing your name there was quite something. But then of course you had to go and, the battle order told you that you were flying, what aircraft you’re flying, the crew you — the crews name and the time of the briefing and the time of the meal, the flying meal. So after you — going off late in the evening you had a flying meal late afternoon which was bacon and eggs, you know, and really had bacon and eggs and sometimes we had beans and they were not the best of things for when you’re flying at altitude when you’re not having any compression in the aircraft. So you, you had your flying meal and then of course you had to go and have a special time to go for briefing. So all the crew assembled, except the navigator went off on his own little special briefing drawing up his chart and then he joined us at the main briefing. And you all sat in a big room, it was smoky, you smoked like a chimney, it was just like, almost like a church with all the benches round about and a big high table at the front, where all the section leaders came and gave the information about the raid. The intelligence officer, the met officer the arms officer, all gave their instructions for what you’re going to do on the raid itself. So, and then on this particular raid the, the uncertainty of the whole thing left a little bit of a, a nervous tension. There was always a bit of tension anyway, so, but this was even more so and having just had to go out to the aircraft, not expecting to go at all you were a little bit tense. And of course you went outside and had the crew bus which drove you out to the aircraft and it was quite a contrast. in the crew room, sitting in the crew room waiting for the — to get onto the crew bus people were sometimes were just silent, just couldn’t talk, didn’t talk at all and others were just the opposite or a little bit hilarious and out of character completely. My little wireless operator said he was always going to come on operations drunk ‘cause he couldn’t stand the atmosphere in the crew room and this particular, a particular night we were waiting to go off and it was — we were all a bit on, on edge and he came up behind me pretending to be drunk he said [imitates someone slurring words] and I turn round and said a very rude word to him but he disappeared and left two little WAFs standing behind me. So this is the sort of thing that the atmosphere that it created. And that was quite a tense little period waiting, so some over expressing themselves and some absolute silence and going out on the crew bus you tend to be a little bit over excited and some over talked and when you got out the aircraft it was the usual system of some chaps had little ideas of getting over the stress and getting through the raid, whereby they’d have a little wee by the tail wheel and some used to sit, kneel down and have a séance, kneel down and have say a pray beside the aircraft. And the — all very, very tense. on this occasion we weren’t expecting to go so we weren’t really expecting to have to get onto the aircraft until the green [unclear] light went up and we had to get going and that was, that was a little bit stressful but you had a job to do and you went and had to go off to do it. The age of my crew we were all very young except one, my mid upper gunner, Tommy he was twenty-six and he was the old man of the crew and all the rest of the crew were nineteen, twenty. I was twenty years old. My navigator lied about his age to join up and he joined us when he was seventeen. He was operating when he was eighteen. But the tension didn’t relax everybody. Norman my bomb aimer, a very dapper little man, he used to come on operations with a crease in his trousers and he, he, he, he liked the sight of the aircraft and the dogs going off and the searchlights. He thought that was great, isn’t that lovely isn’t that nice, isn’t that nice and the crew used to go for Christ sake Norman shut up and this was on — the same effect on the Nuremberg raid where we saw him, mayhem and chaos going on all round about, and he, he wouldn’t say he thought it was nice but he, he thought it was quite spectacular and it was very spectacular and in reflection it was frightening. When you think of our ages, at that age for I was twenty, having been a very naive and sheltered youth, a sickly youth at that, how on earth I got in the air force I don’t know but we were very naive, most of us at that age were very naive. We didn’t have the background or experience of life so we were just doing a job. And it did become frightening. How, how I felt — my first recollection of this being so when you went to learn to fly in Canada it was a big gun hall and you came back and you went onto an Operational Training Unit and picked up a crew and then you went onto the squadron and we went to a Heavy Conversion Unit first and there, er, I was not getting on terribly well because I’ve got little short legs and I had a little bit of a problem keeping these black monsters straight down the runway. My friend who I’d trained with had been parallel for a long, long time he was posted to 101 Squadron and when my turn came a couple of days later when I’d mastered these beasts, er, I said can I go and join the squadron with Paul and the flight commander said well it’s a Special Duty Squadron we only send the best ones there. I said oh thank you very much and that was a bit of a come down but a couple of days later he said right Waughman off to 101 Squadron. So off I went to 101 Squadron. I said have you had a change of heart he said no, he said it’s a squadron with the highest attrition rate in the service and you’ve got the first call on the availability of aircrew. The day I arrived on the squadron my friend Paul had been killed the night before. Then it started to sink in, it really was quite an alarming experience. And, er, the first five raids, first five operations on raids that’s when I had the most casualties, causality rates for new crews, could be anything up to forty percent particularly on our squadron with the special duty operating. But it was, er, quite [unclear] you certainly realised this stuff was serious and of course when you went on operations people used to shoot at you, you know, and you used to think well this is, this is really, this is really something and most raids you nearly always had searchlight activity and on one occasion we were flying over, towards Hanover and we had, we were picked up by the searchlight, the cant really [unclear] control [unclear] searchlight and we were in the searchlight for something like twenty, twenty-five minutes trying to get out of it. With fighters flying all round the place and with the gunners we managed to get out but that was, that was quite alarming and the German night activities were brilliant they really were very, very good and particularly round the Ruhr area where the concentration of industry was and they had their Vicksburg radar which could, could get fighters into the bomber stream and we were attacking the Ruhr this particular night and as we approached the flak was so thick it looked as if you could get out and walk on it. This was one of the old expressions they used. And for the first time, you were always a bit apprehensive and frightened at times, but at this time I, I experienced terror and I’d never experienced terror before and I was, my knees were shaking, I was shaking, I think I was sweating with all that gear, which you did anyway but I really was terrorised. So I dropped my seat so I couldn’t look out and funnily enough, I don’t know why, but I said a little prayer that my mum and dad used to say when I was about six years old by the side of the bed, but I’d never ever said it before and I’ve never said it again until then. it was a little prayer that went ‘now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul will keep’ and the important bit is ‘if I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul will take’ and I said this little prayer. I don’t know why, it just came to me and you know the terror disappeared. I was still apprehensive and frightened but the terror went. And I raised my seat and we carried on. And we had experiences like this later on the operations on the tours but I was never terrorised again so power of prayer, makes you wonder, but I’m sure this affected no end of aircrew like that and sadly some of the aircrew getting into these situations just couldn’t cope and the, one navigator just walked down to the back of the aircraft, he wanted to jump out and the crew had to strap him. He couldn’t talk, he couldn’t speak and when he got back he never spoke and he went to a psychiatric hospital at Matlock and eventually one of the nurses clattered a trio of instruments and he woke up and he said ‘oh Christ they’re shooting us, they’re firing at us, we’re on fire’ and they sorted him out. And that’s the sort of thing that used to affect some of the lads. Sadly the little engineer that I had first of all, he was like that and on our first raid he, he just couldn’t do a thing. He just sat on the floor and shook and sweat, sweated, and on our second raid we had our problems and he just couldn’t do a thing. On the third raid we had engines on fire, particularly the starboard outer, and he just couldn’t do a thing, he couldn’t do anything to help at all so I had to get out, half out of my seat because the [unclear] buttons were down on the left hand side, right hand side and operate them myself. He just couldn’t do a thing. So when I got back I reported it to the wing commander and he said you know he’s got to go and he left that day. we never saw him again. Whether he was made LMF, lacking moral fibre, we don’t know but he should never of been — and people who suffered like this but carried on operating, they were really the heroes of the aircrew ‘cause they knew they were frightened and they were frightened but they carried on. And it says a great deal of credit for them and there was no end like that as well. You see the experience of arriving at a target, you usually saw the target ahead because it had been marked by the Pathfinders and this was where about a couple of them before you actually dropped your bombs, the bomb aimer would take over control, not the actual physical control of the aircraft but you were still flying it but he told you what to do and where to do, and what to do and for that while you were flying pretty well straight and level , it was left, left, right, right, and then as you got up the target you had something like two minutes or a minute and a half dead straight flying with the bomb aimer controlling you and that was quite an alarming time because you are over the target with searchlights, fighters round about, bombs dropping round about you. You’d occasionally see the odd bomb drop past your aircraft with [unclear] and you couldn’t do a thing about it. Or you shouldn’t do a thing about it and you didn’t until the bomb aimer said ‘bombs gone’ but that wasn’t the end of it. To get a photograph of where your bombs burst you carried a photoflood, a multimillion [unclear] little explosive which dropped out of the flesh out of the back of the aircraft which exploded in the air when your bombs burst, so you had a picture where your bombs burst. And at one time they said well unless you got a photograph of where your bomb burst the raid won’t count, but that didn’t always apply. But you had that couple of minutes in the last bit of flying, straight and narrow [coughs] and you couldn’t, you shouldn’t take any evasive action at all and you were just sitting waiting and all round about you’d see all this activity going round about you because on the ground the ground was lit up and [coughs] the ground, ground was bright, quite bright and that’s one of the things the fighters liked because the fighters would get up above you and see your silhouette on the ground.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWaughmanR150401
PWaughmanR1501
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Rusty Waughman. One
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:21:05 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-01
Description
An account of the resource
He discusses a mid-air collision during an operation with 101 Squadron. to Hasselt. He describes what it was like prior to a operation and the feelings experienced by the crew, from seeing the battle orders on the notice board, the pre-flight meal, the briefing and the tension and atmosphere on the crew bus out to the aircraft as well as the rituals that some of the crew undertook.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Great Britain
Germany
England--Lincolnshire
Belgium--Hasselt
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tracy Johnson
101 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
coping mechanism
faith
fear
flight engineer
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
mid-air collision
military ethos
military service conditions
navigator
pilot
RAF hospital Matlock
RAF Ludford Magna
superstition
target photograph
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3517/PWaughmanR1501.1.jpg
ea7d7d15f3b9f96826258b16ff6e1ae6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3517/AWaughmanR150803.1.mp3
4b20ad44c8f089eeec0544eae42cc539
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Waughman, Rusty
Russell Reay Waughman
Russell R Waughman
Russell Waughman
R R Waughman
R Waughman
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Russell Reay "Rusty" Waughman (1923 - 2023, 1499239 and 171904 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 101 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-01
2015-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Waughman, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RW: All wrote a little letter and signed it and sent it to the station commander who interviewed us and said, ‘This constitutes mutiny.’ So, with all our explanations of what went on he accepted that the fact that we’d been left off the draft and the corporal [?] corporal from West Kirby was actually charged for taking bribes to take, put people on, take people off drafts and put friends on. So, there we are. There we are. We’ve got no records, no kit, no nothing so we had to start again. So we didn’t do the, so we went and did our IT, initial training, again at Stratford on Avon which was rather nice, very fine. Nice place Stratford. I think I had my first girlfriend at Stratford. She was a very, she was a nice little girl. I often whatever happened to all these creatures looking back on all these times but there we are. We did our initial training again and from there of course we had to learn to start playing with aeroplanes and to start with we had to make sure that we were alright and worth sending overseas. We had to go to Codsall at Wolverhampton and er on a Tiger Moth just go solo. As soon as you got, went solo that was it finished until you were posted overseas and we went, went over to Canada on the Empire Training Scheme on the little ship called The Battery a converted Polish ship which was very comfortable, very nice. Very congested of course. And we landed at St John’s in Canada, down to Moncton which was the holding unit and then we travelled all across Canada on a public train to Calgary and the little aerodrome there was called Dewinton, which was just south of Calgary. We’d been there, back there since and Dewinton is now a suburb of Calgary which is incredible when you think of it. And that was nice and we were learning to fly on Tiger Moths and the Stearman. The Americans, the Boeing people had sent up sixty Stearman to the air force for people to learn to fly on. So we trained on both the Stearman and Tiger Moths and of course having finished the course I was a bit slow learning so I was, I think they were a little concerned about what the state of flying was. I was, I’ve always been a slow learner and I had a wash out check with the CGI on the station who very kindly allowed me to carry on and really from that time I never really looked back. It was really quite remarkable. And for some reason, I don’t know why, looking back I don’t know why they ever asked it but they said, ‘What do you want to become? What do you want to join? Fighter Command or Bomber Command?’ And you can imagine about ninety nine percent of us said Fighter Command so I was sent to Bomber Command which meant going down, back down on to the prairies to Medicine Hat and Moose Jaw learning to fly on the Airspeed Oxford and we had great times there. One thing we learned there which helped us later on in flying experience was the fact that we used to go off on a cross country with two pilots, no navigator, just one acting as pilot and one acting as navigator and switched over halfway through and we saw on a lake, which looked rather nice, we said, ‘Let’s low fly over this lake,’ which we weren’t allowed to do of course, which we did. Little did we know that there were ducks on the lake which rose up and we clattered through these ducks. I ended up with a duck wrapped around my face. We had six duck in the aircraft. Fortunately, they ended up in the engines nacelles, they didn’t damage the engines and of course when we got back we had a right old rocket from the, from the boss but the fact that we got the aircraft back between us and landed they allowed us to carry on. But I had to go to the dentist the next day on camp and the dentist said, ‘Oh you were the bloke who flew that aeroplane.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We had duck for dinner.’ And then I sat back. And of course that was sort of an experience which helped us much, much later in life, in flying life, which was quite remarkable. And so of course having finished that course you took the little white flash out of your cap which was indicated that you were UT aircrew and took that out and you sewed on your wings in and then, oh, you were a pilot which was quite, which was quite remarkable. And of course you had to get back home so we forgot all about aeroplanes for quite a little while, travelled right back across Canada down to New York where we joined the Queen, Queen Elizabeth to come back home on the Queen Elizabeth and that was, wasn’t in convoy. We just pointed east and set off. It was quite, so new to us. We were so naïve and that was just a wonderful experience except on the Queen Elizabeth there were seventeen thousand others and we had a first class cabin along with eight other people which, you were sleeping in bunks with a chappie’s bottom above you rubbing on your nose, you know. But it was a wonderful experience. Two meals a day and it was wonderful. We lost two people overboard er but the boat didn’t stop they just threw life belts over and, poor souls. But there were Americans, nurses, Americans, Canadians, all coming back, back to the UK. Got back to Gourock up on the Clyde and then of course we had to find somewhere to go and be rehabilitated. We went first of all to Harrogate and then down to Whitley Bay and then back down to Oxford where we had a little rehab course on Oxfords just to get your hand back in again on Oxfords. That was at Kidlington, at Croughton, just outside Oxford. And the course, then of course you had to go to OTU Operational Training Unit and that was an amazing experience when we were flying the Vickers Wellington, the old Wimpy. When we got there of course you had to get a crew. You had a get a five man crew for the Wimpy and the system as I’m sure everybody knows was the fact that they got all the pilots, all the navigators, all the wireless operators a gunner and no engineer at the time and but the, and the navigator and put everybody into this big room and said, ‘Sort yourselves out into crews.’ And they used to go around and say, ‘I haven’t got a navigator. Are you a navigator? Can you fly? Do you want to fly with me?’ and this sort of system is amazing and the system worked. It really was incredible. And my crew had, you had no idea of the background of these people and my crew turned out to be the most wonderful collection of blokes and we flew really as a crew and not just a skipper and bods behind we just, and it worked out wonderfully well. Just to give an idea what they were my bomb aimer up front he was, had a little gypsy existence over in Manchester, a dapper little man, he used to come on operations with a crease in his trousers which was unheard of. My engineer, we had two engineers, I’ll relay about that a little bit when we come to flying. Les, my, I shan’t give his name because it so happened that he couldn’t cope on operations. He was just more or less a young lad working in an office. My navigator Alec, Alec Cowan, he was a real, he was a wonderful navigator, wonderful navigator. He lied about his age to join up. He joined up when he was sixteen and he was operational flying with us at eighteen. We didn’t know at the time. We didn’t find this out until sixty years later which was just as well. We were sitting in the pub at, at Lincoln at our reunion and we were saying, we had just had our eightieth birthdays and we said. ‘Oh we just had our, when’s your eightieth birthday Alec?’ And he said, ‘Well, it’s not for another two years yet.’ So that was the first time we, we found out what he was and he was just really more or less straight from school but he really was a most wonderful navigator. Taffy, a little wireless operator, he was a character. Oh, he was a mad little nut he was. We tried to find out where he was after the war and we discovered that his background was in Aberdare and his uncle had a pub and I think he was helping out in his uncle’s pub and I think he took that up for the rest of his life and I wouldn’t say he was a rebel, he was a wonderful character. His mischief, terribly mischievous bloke and we still keep in touch now. He’s a very, very close friend. A lovely little friend, Taffy. My engineer, I eventually had another engineer. A chap called Curly, Curly Ormerod and he was on the situation where he didn’t fly with his skipper who was shot down and killed and he didn’t fly that night he, because I had to get rid of my first engineer Curly was a spare engineer and he joined us and he was a, worked for the council in Oldham I think it was where he was a trainee engineer and just, only a young lad, he was twenty and my special duty operator because of the special duties he was my special duty operator, he was an Austin apprentice and he wanted to join the air force as a pilot but the waiting list for the pilot training then was quite long and he couldn’t wait that long so he volunteered to join as a gunner. We’ll explain a little more about Ted when we come to what they did in the aeroplane. Tommy, my mid upper gunner, he was a council worker in Rotherham and he was the old man of the crew. He was twenty six. The next one down was twenty. I was twenty at the time which was incredible when you think of our kids at twenty. You know, I’m sure if the same thing happened again now I’m sure the responses from the children, the young youth, would be the same but he was, he was married and he had a bit of leave on the station because his wife produced a baby. So, poor old Tommy, he had rather a tragic death after the war but still that Tommy. And my rear gunner, he was a Canadian. His father, an Englishman who had a funeral service, funeral service which he developed in Vancouver in America and Harry through his father’s English experience although he joined the RCAF he came over and joined the RAF as a Canadian. Again, these lads, you know although these vast different backgrounds we all gelled and we all worked together wonderfully well and what they did with us they kept us alive, you know and it really was wonderful. And I, myself, I couldn’t, I didn’t have any education at all. I went to school but because of my illnesses I went to school to start with at the age of five in Newcastle and then I became desperately ill and I was in bed for six months as a young teenager with TB so I couldn’t take place in sport or anything like that so when they came to doing exams when they did the scholarship in those days I went to school just before I was due to take the scholarship and of course I didn’t pass. So there I was. I was, I couldn’t go to a secondary school so I was sent to what they called a training school for the shipyards and it was a sort of engineering training school where at the age sixteen I started to learn about art and drawing, machine drawing and this sort of thing. It was, I enjoyed the school. It was nice but I had no exam, no exams at the end of it so when I, when I joined up I had no matric, no school cert, no exams at all. So how on earth I was ever passed. The only thing that helped I think when they were testing for the attestation was the fact that I became, I started off on the stage at the Newcastle Rep Theatre for a, for a year a bit while I got a position as a pupil surveyor at an architect surveyors office in Newcastle and there I used to do a lot of surveying work using angles and trade vectors and things which helped in the navigation exams and I think that helped me to pass the attestation exams in London. So there we are. There, you’ve got a crew. But we mentioned Ted, the special duty chap, Ted Manners, but he didn’t join the crew at OTU at all because we only had the five man crew and we didn’t know about, anything about special squadrons then of course and of course having finished at Operational Training Unit on Wimpies we were posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was at 1662 Conversion Unit at Blyton and of course with the demand for Lancaster aircraft and operational aircraft they had very few Lancasters available. The ones they had available were really the ones that weren’t fit for operational flying so we started to learn to fly four engine aircraft on Halifaxes, on ‘Halibags.’ A nice aeroplane to fly but not quite as amenable as the Lancaster from our experience later on but that was, that was nice, that was fine and of course on the station, on the same station they had what they called an LFS a Lancaster Finishing School so when we’d gone solo on the Halibag we went on to join this LFS, the Lancaster Finishing School and this was on Lancasters and they were a different aeroplane all together. It was a wonderful experience and experience we never expected to have in my life. But I had a little problem. Although my height was right I’ve got little short legs and when you’ve got twelve, four engines of twelve eighty horsepower all taking off with each engine, each propeller going around with three thousand revs you get a lot of torque, a lot of swing on take-off and with my little short legs I was having a hell of a job keeping these bloody black things straight down the runway on take-off so I was a little bit later finishing my training conversion than my friend Paul [Zaggy] who I’d trained with, been in parallel with for many, many months. And when we finished, when he’d finished his course he was posted to 101 squadron and when my turn came about two or three days later I asked the flight commander, ‘Can I go and join my friend Paul on 101 squadron because we’d been friends for a long, long time?’ And his response was, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘It’s a special duty squadron and we only send the best ones there.’ And I said Oh God that was a bit of a comedown. Anyway, a couple of days later he said, ‘Right, Waughman, 101 squadron. Off you go.’ And I said, ‘Well what’s this special duties thing?’ He said, ‘Oh you’ll find out when you get there.’ He didn’t know actually from what we found out later. And when we got to the squadron the day we arrived on the squadron my friend Paul had been killed the night before. And that, you suddenly begin to realise this is serious stuff, you know and you didn’t really think about it beforehand but then it became realistic. You did a couple of cross countries to get your hand in on the squadron experience and then we were given a special duty operator. An eighth member of the crew who spoke German, a German speaker operator and he was flying, was using this equipment called ABC. This ABC equipment started down on the south of England where there were fifteen stations with very fluent German speaking operators who could talk to the German night fighter controllers and jam their signals to their fighters, instructions to their fighters but it only had a range of a hundred and forty miles so that didn’t cover the deep penetration raids in to eastern Europe. So, Sydney Bufton, one of the air ministry boffins said well let’s put it in an aeroplane so they put, started putting them in. It took about three thousand hours to fit this equipment in to an aeroplane and quite an expense and this was allocated to 100 squadron. Now, 100 squadron were also having H2S which was a ground scanning radar and the power unit on the Lancaster mean you couldn’t cope with the ABC and the H2S so they chose the next squadron down which was 101 squadron. So 101 squadron became the special duty squadron flying this ABC and what they called the stuff on the ground station was called Jostle and it had a code name of Corona. Hence it became the Cigar and it was known as ground Cigar and of course when they got it stuck into an aeroplane it became ABC which was Airborne Cigar and Bufton wrote to the air ministry saying that in future correspondence all reference to Airborne Cigar aircraft will be known as ABC in future correspondence so hence 101 squadron became the ABC of the RAF which is remarkable. What Ted had, he had a little three inch cathode ray tube where he could pick up the frequency of the night fighter controllers and lock a little strobe on these, on these, on his screen, cover that with the aircraft’s, aircraft strobe, lock that on and he’d locked on to the frequency of the German night fighter controller’s instructions to the fighters. Having decided that on another little switch where there was German speaking because there were Poles, Czechs and things, once he’d decided that he pressed another little button which blasted engine noise out on that frequency and jammed the signals. And it was a wigwog noise woooooo oooo oooo and the Germans called that, they had a name for this and it was called dudelsack and I think it’s quite an appropriate little description ‘cause dudelsack means bagpipes. And so we had this ABC equipment which is wonderful stuff and this started operating in September, in ‘43. We didn’t join the squadron until November ‘43 and on the first raid the first, one of the first instructions that the special duty operator received from the German signals was, ‘Achtung. Achtung. English bastards coming.’ And that was one of the first instructions they had but sadly, one of our aircraft on that first raid was shot down and the Germans had the system right from the beginning but even the [telephones] people knew of the system but they couldn’t really work out all the technology of it at all so that was quite the thing. That was one of the things that added to the attrition rate on our squadron, the fact that the German night fighters could home on to our transmissions ‘cause we were using their frequencies so they could home on to us and the ABC aircraft were used on every major bombing raid that went out and the idea was that our aircraft were staggered every ten miles through the whole bomber stream. We acted as a normal bomber aircraft with a reduced bomb load, only slightly, well I suppose so I don’t think it ever happened actually but the equipment weighed something like [six or seven hundred pounds] plus another operator so it knocked our bomb load down a little bit and we had three enormous aerials transmitters on the aircraft. Two on the top and one under the nose and these were nearly seven foot long. It didn’t affect the aerodynamics of the aircraft whatsoever. We didn’t, we wouldn’t have realised they were there and we just there we were and our first raid, when we went off on our first raid my little engineer, there was something strange about him he didn’t seem really with it at all. Anyway, so we found we were getting in a bit of a mess and got in the way so, with experience I think we could have carried on but being so inexperienced we came back, we aborted the trip. So, we were, this was just at the very start in November of the Battle of Berlin and this was a trip to Berlin and the WingCo wasn’t too happy about it, WingCo Alexander. And our next operation a couple of nights later again was to Berlin and Les, my little engineer, nineteen year old, we had an engine on fire, a starboard outer went on fire and he just couldn’t do anything he just sat on the floor and just shiver and shake he couldn’t do anything, couldn’t do any of his work at all and I had to, the graviner button on the Lancaster is down on the right hand side of the instrument panel and I had to half get out of the seat to cover all this lot. He couldn’t do any of the fuel control systems at all. So, anyway when we got back I reported this to the wing commander who said, ‘Well you know I suppose you’ve done the right thing,’ and Les, this, my little engineer left the squadron that day, that afternoon. Whether he was made LMF which they usually do in those days we never did find out but he never should have been because he never refused to fly and this is what happened to a lot of Bomber Command aircrew who were literally shit scared. They really were and that was really a physical thing as well and these lads who knew what the conditions was never, they’d rather face the guns of Germany rather than have the stigma of LMF stamped on their documents and this LMF stamped on their documents followed them wherever they went afterwards and this information is kept by the record office and isn’t being released until 2035 so by that time none of the people will be alive to get any slur on their character. So we lost our little Les and this is when we got Curly who didn’t fly with Les the night he was shot down so we acquired Curly as an engineer. Wonderful character. Again, another great tease at the, he was a nice man though but we gelled as a crew and really in those days you did become slightly insular because you worked as a crew and trained as a crew and you played as a crew and I must admit we, we drank a lot. Eight pints a night wasn’t out of the way you know and this was part of the relaxation system for the, for the air force. Because of this Harris wrote to all station commanders, again we found out this much, much later, only fairly recently, the fact that a directive had been sent to the station commanders saying that no Bomber Command aircrew must be used on station duties unless it affected the running of the station and intimated that the relaxation activities must be condoned. Which, as far as that was concerned, was young lads full of testosterone was beer and women and it sounds a bit crude but the girls and boys on the station were really wonderful. They were really good companions. They knew what the system was and they complied and they were really lovely. We had one little girl who used to look after us in our little hut, in our little nissen hut which was, which was just a corrugated iron nissen hut and she was a little Welsh girl with a little doggie and she was known as the camp bicycle ‘cause everybody rode it, you know and these are the sort of the things that went but it wasn’t pornography it was just an accepted way of release of stress and one of my friends who I knew very well he used to say, ‘Well, thank God for sex. It’s kept me sane.’ And this was just a means of release of stress on the aircraft. And a lot of it did happen in Bomber Command sadly and it caused people to lose their lives which is rather a shame but you know those lads who flew and knowing their condition like that they were really the bravest of the brave, you know. They really were. Wonderful. And it kept Bomber Command going. But LMF, they didn’t have so many LMF. I think there weren’t a huge number cases of LMF but it was a rotten stigma and of course then having been on the on the, on the squadron with our ABC equipment we were involved very much with the German night fighter system and this was organised by a chap called, oh I’ve forgotten what they called him now, I’ll think of it in minute but he organised that the, all of eastern Europe, western Europe would be split in to five boxes. The Kammhuber. Kammhuber, the Kammhuber Line and this in each box each controller had control of their fighter system and they had a couple of systems there where they had, called Wilde Sau and Zahme Sau which is Wild Boar and Tame Boar and with the Wurzburg radar they could direct a fighter in to the bomber stream and nearly always ME109s and they were the Wild Boar who could go and find their own aircraft to attack and the Tame Boar was with Wurzburg and Freya aircraft systems whereby they could direct an aircraft almost on to an individual aircraft which was quite alarming as it turned out. We had experience of that and they developed a system called Lichtenstein whereby you see these aircraft with German aircraft they nearly all the ME109s with an array of aerials around the nose and they could actually home onto an individual aircraft and because of our ABC equipment we were very, very vulnerable. They could home on to the ABC equipment and the H2S and they developed the system called Naxos and SN2 which was very, very effective indeed and they could home directly on to aircraft and counter, counter measures for our broadcast so we had, they had a system where they could home on to our aircraft. We had a system where we would counter measure their counter measures, counter measure their receptions and they developed a [Frensburg] which counter measured our counter measures and we developed counter measures that would counter measured their counter measures and so on and the electronic wall we learned afterwards really was quite terrific but the German night fighter system was, really was very good. And they had with their, with their Wurzburg searchlights, radar controlled searchlights, radar controlled guns they had what they called predicted flak and predicted searchlights and when you were flying along you’d see this characteristic big blue searchlight appear which would wave backwards and forwards and as soon as it picked you up on the radar it flicked on to you and you were flying in their searchlights and all the searchlights roundabout would come on. You’d have perhaps forty, fifty, sixty searchlights flying with you and you were flying in daylight and of course the night fighters used to get in amongst you then but we had systems of flying. We flew the corkscrew pattern which flying a corkscrew pattern more or less like a horizontal corkscrew. It was bloody hard work when you’ve got a fully loaded aircraft. You lost a little bit of height doing it but it was really effective and the sad thing is when gunners, some gunners saw these things and gave instructions like say, ‘Dive starboard go’ and something like this some of the captains said, well, ‘Why?’ And of course by that time it was far too late but this corkscrew pattern did help enormously to evade the things and on the predicted flak it was quite a characteristic burst of flak. They usually put out a box system of flak where they just covered this area completely with anti-aircraft fire and you had to fly through this box of fire but they had this predicted flak whereby they could send up the shell which would burst in the characteristic sort of development and if you saw this behind you, if you were lucky enough, you knew this was predicted flak so, and you knew it’d take forty five seconds for the Germans to reload their guns, fire their shells and for the shell to burst so you turned off forty five degrees, and flew for about forty seconds then turned back ninety degrees and hope the next one burst behind you. This happened to us once and we nearly ended up in the system for twenty five, twenty minutes just doing this evasion all the time. Similarly with the searchlights, the searchlights I caused a bit of hilarity one night when we got back to debriefing saying that we were attacked by searchlights over Hanover but we were in searchlights for nearly half an hour trying to get out of them which, but with these sort of things happened on raids and so of course there we are we are flying on a squadron and it was daily life of being on the squadron. When you woke up in the morning usually late, after breakfast or early after lunch you went up to flights and on the wall you saw a battle order and could see your name on the battle order and all the battle order told you was A) you were flying, the crew you were flying with, the aircraft you were flying in, and the time of briefing, and the time of meal and when you saw that the first thing you did was go and change your underwear which is, which is, it really was. To say that you weren’t fearful, you know, it was very, it was very anxious, became very anxious because you had no idea where you were going. It was just you were on the battle order that night. So we used to go up to flights and check the aircraft, the serviceability of the aircraft, meet the ground crew, wonderful ground crew I had, and there you’d ask what the petrol load was and what the bomb load was and if you had lots of petrol, not so many bombs you knew you were going a long way. Vice versa if you had lots of bombs and not so much petrol you weren’t going so far so you had some idea what the thing was going to, what the raid was going to be about and then at briefing of course, on the wall, we were all in nissen huts by the way, little tin huts, on the wall they had a big map of Europe covered by a map, a curtain and when you all sat down and all got collected together they drew the curtain back and there was the red line which was a tape showing the route to and from the target and if it was a long distance target, Berlin, Munich, these groans used to go up right through the briefing and then you were briefed by the various section leaders, the met officer, the armament officer, navigation officer and there of course then you had to get out to the aircraft so we went in to the crew room, got our kit on and the girls in the parachute section, [collect your] parachute section, they were great. One little girl one day said, ‘Let me have your battle dress.’ And she took my battle dress off, took my wings off and sewed a lucky three penny piece under my wing. And these are the sort of things that went on. Wonderful characters. And you had a locker where you kept your kit in the locker and when you were flying the rear gunner had what they called a Sidcot suit which was an electrically heated suit but the rest of the crew you could really manage with just a thick jumper and battle dress. Some wore some form of overall but the costumes were really quite, quite ordinary. You had flying boots. We had, originally we had the brown fur lined flying boots and after that we had the escape boots, black escape boots, whereby they had a little knife concealed in the boot where you could cut the top off and leave a little, like a pair of shoes when you got shot down. There we are. We’ve got our kit, we’ve got our kit we’ve got to get out the aircraft so the crew buses arrived and we had to get out in to the, in to the aircraft but the atmosphere was quite electric, you know. They had sort of two sort or reactions. Some people were verbose and talked and over talked which was out of characteristic and some were just clammed up and just didn’t talk at all. So, when you got to out to the aircraft you just checked and went around and did a normal flight check for the aircraft, waiting for the signal to taxi out and of course once you got there, once you got in the aircraft there was no outside communication whatsoever ‘cause the Germans could pick up. In fact with their radar system they knew that the raid was going to take place and they knew the height you were going to fly at, they knew the course you were going to fly and the speed you were flying at but they didn’t know where you were going. So, we were waiting at the aircraft for the verilight to tell us to go and taxi out and of course the other little superstitions, you know the old tale of just a bit of luck you wee’d on the tail wheel. The lads used to wee on the tail wheel. We never did of course but er [laughs]. My rear gunner Harry, being stuck at the back he didn’t feel a part of this the bombing lark at all so he used to take a couple of empty beer bottles with him and when we were over the target his contribution to the bombing was to throw out a couple of empty beer bottles. This, this on one occasion when we were waiting to get on the aircraft the station commander, Group Captain King used to come around and just say, ‘Hello lads.’ Wished them all best of luck. Thinking of a man like that knowing, sending all these lads you know that a third of them aren’t going to come back, you know. What went through their mind must be, must be awful. Anyway, when the group captain saw Harry without his beer bottles Harry explained. ‘Oh I haven’t got my bloody beer bottles.’ He said, ‘Right. Get in the car.’ Dashed down to the mess, got a couple of beer bottles and drove him back again so Harry had them. Whether he drank them or threw them out full we never did find out but Harry had his beer bottles. I had a little, I wasn’t superstitious, touch wood but my cousin Mary, I’m very fond of Mary I think our parents were getting a little bit worried but Mary she gave me a silk scarf, a little RAF silk scarf which I wore on every operation I went on and I wore long johns, used to wear the long johns on the flying and I thought well if I change my long johns I’ll, you know, I’ll change my luck. We had two pairs. One for wearing and one for washing. I never had mine washed and I wore the same pair of long johns for thirty operations and the lads used to say, ‘Well you took them off and stood them up in your locker’ and you can imagine the odour on the aircraft with all this sort of thing going on must have been pretty awful. You didn’t notice it at the time. But another thing I had was my dad, one of the talismans for naval people was a caul and the caul is a sack a baby is born in and my dad was given one of these when he, when he first joined, when he started operations in the navy in the First World War and I was on leave just before I was joining the squadron. They knew I was going to go on an operational squadron and I was standing, I was standing by the stove in the kitchen and my dad came up and he wasn’t a very effusive man and he said, ‘Here’s this,’ and he gave me his caul in a little tin box which I’ve still got and that’s over a hundred years old and he said, ‘There you are. Good luck. I love you.’ And that was really a three hankie job, you know. A wonderful little man. But there we are I had my caul and I didn’t take it on operations but it kept me alive and these are the sort of superstitions you had but we weren’t on because of the job we were doing we weren’t allowed to take any sort of document, photographs or anything at all because of the very secret nature of our, with the work we doing. It was treated very, we weren’t allowed to take any photographs on the squadron at all. We did. And everything was kept very, we weren’t allowed to discuss it anywhere outside but A) our aircraft was parked at dispersal, we were W which was far end of dispersal just by a fence and the main road was just outside and I don’t know what guarding they had on the aircraft but anyway part of the secrecy thing was not having to take any documentation. When we got our sandwiches they were wrapped up in newspaper so they had a good, they could have had a good idea what was going on. So there we were, off on operations and operational flying became to start with you were so inexperienced that you didn’t really realise what was going on and the casualty rate in the first five operations was something like forty percent which was as high as that and it really was. It became quite an alarming thing. We didn’t realise at the time. We only found out this many years afterwards. So our squadron were very vulnerable and once we got past the five operations squadrons, five operations you really became quite fatalistic. You just, you were doing a job and accepted what you had to do and you expected you were going to die and it was quite a strange relationship that you had and you had a bit, a little bit of sick humour and I’m sure folk know of the grim reaper, the old skeletal figure with his scythe and with his scythe you got the chop and we used to say, when you were talking, standing by somebody, put your hand on his shoulder and you said, ‘Death put his bony hand on your shoulder and [live] chap I’m coming,’ you know and if you were in the mess and one of your comrades has been killed and gone you used to drink his health and you used to say, ‘Here’s to good old,’ so and so, ‘And here’s the next one to die.’ So this sort of atmosphere existed. Some people had premonitions you know and my mother, my mother was an old witch really she used to have dreams and things and she had a dream one night that things weren’t going to go right and she tried to contact the station to see what was going on and of course she couldn’t because the station was completely isolated and that was a night when we had an awful lot of trouble. But she had this idea. And one of the girls on the squadron one of the little WAAF officers, on the Nuremberg raid, said to her fiancé Jimmy [Batten] Smith she said, ‘You’ll be over the target about ten minutes past midnight.’ She said, ‘Right, I’ll set my alarm clock and I’ll think of you when you’re over the target.’ She woke up about 11 o’clock, half past ten, 11 o’clock and knew something wasn’t right and she switched on her light and listened and couldn’t find anything, anything about it at all and Jimmy, over the target, as soon as he left the target, just at the time, he was shot down and killed so he never got back. There’s another, our Flight Commander, Squadron Leader Robinson he was a wonderful, he had very, very rapid promotion because our previous flight commander was killed and he was promoted from flight lieutenant up to, straight up to squadron leader within a matter of weeks and he became our squadron commander er flight commander. Wonderful little man. And he had a rear gunner who was seconded from the American air force and this American chappie still had his brown overalls and American flying kit and they were in the mess and the lads were playing crib and poker and he, this Jones a chap called Jones, won the, won the kitty and I can see it now a little pile of ten shilling notes which he won which he when he picked it up he said, ‘Shan’t be needing this.’ And gave it all away. That night, on the raid, on the twenty ninth raid they were all killed. So whether they had these sort of premonitions, you know, it was quite remarkable and one of the bomb, when I came off leave one occasion we only had a short, a few days leave the bombing, the armament officer, only a young lad, he looked strange and I said, ‘Are you alright, Geoff?’ And he said, ‘Well, funny thing happened,’ an aircraft had crashed on take-off and hit part of the bomb dump and he jumped in his little wagon to go out and see what he could do out there and when he got on the perimeter track near where the bomb dump was there was a chap waiting and saying, ‘Don’t go down in there. They’re all dead.’ This chap was covered in blood and whatever. He said, ‘Don’t go down in there. They’re all dead.’ But he said, ‘I must.’ So when he went down to see the, what was going on he found the body of the man he’d been talking to on the perimeter track dead in the hut. So, and within a few weeks he was white haired. And these sorts of strange things happened you know it’s a, it’s a, you didn’t realise at the time all the significance of all these things but there we are. One of the things that happened, on one of the early raids when we went and poor old Bomber Harris, he didn’t like the idea at all but they developed what they called the transport plan whereby they were bombing railway martialling yards, [tank?] depots, station er station signal boxes and train stations to stop goods going down for the pre-invasion, for the German pre- invasion and so this was the transport plan and Harris didn’t like this but we went off on one raid to a place called Hasselt which was on the Belgian/German border, railway martialling yards and we got within about ten minutes of the target. This was all at night. This was all night flying of course in cloud, mainly in cloud and my engineer who was looking out the window said a very rude word, something about fornicating in hades and the next thing we knew this other aircraft hit us slap on the side and we just crashed into this, the two aircraft just crashed together and we were, he was slightly underneath us and his propellers cut through our bomb aimer’s compartment, just behind Norman’s feet. He was lying down ready to bomb. His mid upper, his canopy, the other aircraft canopy took off our starboard tyre, his turret, which was sticking up at the top of his aeroplane carved through our fuselage at the back, left a big hole in the back. We lost part of the tale plane. Lost all our electrics. Harry, the rear gunner was knocked unconscious, only temporary and we were a bit of a mess and thereby we, we were sitting, I didn’t see all this going on but the crew saw what was going on and when we hit this aircraft we were literally sitting on top of it and his propellers were churning through our little bits and pieces and we were in a bit of a mess and afterwards I was asked to write a little resume of what happened in the collision just for purely records sake and to give it a title of the most significant thing that happened, you remembered, on the trip and the most significant bit was sitting on top of this other aircraft with no control over your aircraft whatsoever. All the controls were just limp and wobbly. So, nothing. So, I called this the title of this thing, ‘It went limp in my hand,’ which was highly censored. I wasn’t allowed to do that. So this report went through and in consequence we had to do, coming back, we had to do a crash landing. We had Fido on the station and the Fido system was a sort of a little triangular system with the fuel pipe on the top and the gaps of about ten metre gaps within each section and unfortunately our dud wheel skidded between the gap and the thing and the other one bounced over the top of the pipes and just put a little dent in the top and there was a casualty that night sadly. We were skidding towards the control tower in the dark and we were getting very close to the control tower and all the staff on the control or most of the staff on the control tower and the little girls, came out to watch this idiot bend his aeroplane and as we were skidding towards it one of these girls jumped back and sprained her ankle and that was the only casualty that night but there were sort of talks of decorations and things but it never happened so I was very kindly given a green endorsement in my logbook and mentioned in despatches. That’s in the logbook now still but if it had been a red one it would have been an adverse report but a green one was a pat on the back sort of thing so that was, that was quite nice but there of course that aircraft was written off. As far as the squadron it was written off it had to be repaired and rebuilt but we discovered that two main longerons going along the back of the aircraft were badly damaged and had we to have taken evasive action no doubt the aircraft would have broken up and we realised that a lot of damage at the back because we had a big hole in the floor and I told Harry, the rear gunner, I said, ‘Harry, pick up your parachute, come up front just in case anything else happens.’ And he said, ‘No. I’ll stay here and keep a look out.’ And these are the characters that they were. Wonderful characters. And that wasn’t the only thing that Harry did. We went on one long trip and his electrically heated Sidcot suit failed. He never said a peep, never said a word and when we got back seven and a half, eight hours later getting out the aircraft they said. ‘Where’s Harry?’ ‘Oh he must still be there.’ So I popped into the aircraft, opened his door and there he was sitting with an icicle from his face mask as thick as my wrist down between his legs. He couldn’t move and he’d never said a peep he just kept on doing his job. He was in sick quarters for nearly three weeks and that affected him for the rest of his life. And this is what these poor lads got up to. It really was wonderful. I was so lucky with the lads I had as a crew. Wonderful and very conscientious lads. So there we are. We got back and of course the aircraft had to be taken away and we had to get a new aircraft. Our first aircraft was W with the squadron letters were SR and we had a W, W ABC all the way through. We had W, so we had W and there was a song of the day called. “Coming in on a wing and a prayer.” So I thought. ‘Oh lets,’ and there’s a P O Prune character so I painted on the front of the aircraft this P O Prune character with wings and “On a wing and a prayer” coming underneath and of course that was the one that we crash landed. That disappeared. That went. And we get a new aircraft almost immediately. Well, they got another aircraft almost immediately straight from MU and, ‘What are we going to put on the nose. What nose art were we going to have?’ And when we got out of dispersal to see the new aircraft Jock Steadman or Willy Steadman, Willy Steadman our Scottish in charge, NCO in charge of the aircraft he’d already painted on the aircraft Oor Wullie and Oor Wullie was the cartoon character from the Glasgow Sunday Post and that was the aircraft which gets all the publicity now and we did more operations in the other one than we did than we did in this one but they were wonderful aeroplanes to fly. Really, really were. So, anyway, there we are. We’ve got a new aeroplane and another operation we went on was to Hasselt which was another transport plant target whereby 5 group and 1 group were involved. A hundred and seventy three aircraft from each group. We were scattered all the way through the raid, just our squadron, so we were going to Hasselt which was French had been French military base which was the biggest military base in Europe at the time right on the edge of the village of Mailly and we were briefed to bomb very, very strictly. We didn’t want to kill anybody in the village so we had to be very precise, we were told to be very precise with our bombing so, and we were to assemble at a point just north of Mailly called Chalon whereby you waited there to get instructions from the master bomber, Cheshire who was the master bomber to go and bomb. He was really being very precise as well and he wasn’t satisfied with the marking so when the first group of a hundred and seventy three aircraft from 5 group arrived at Chalon, encircling the beacon, circling the area, it wasn’t a beacon as such but circling the area and being, the aircraft being delayed and delayed and delayed this second group caught up with the first group so there was something like nearly four hundred aircraft milling around waiting for instructions to go in and there just happened to be three German night fighter stations handy and they got in amongst us and it really was chaotic. There really were all sorts of awful things going on. The result of the raid was a very successful raid but the loss was over eleven percent. They sent just under four hundred aircraft and we lost forty two but there was only one aircraft crashed in the village where a French man were killed so that was compensation in a way. So when we were circling this beacon the RT discipline disappeared. You weren’t supposed to talk outside because the Germans knew where you were going, where you were coming from but the RT discipline just went that night and a voice came over the air to the pathfinders, ‘Pathfinders. For God’s sake pull your fingers out. I’m on fire. I’m being been shot at.’ And a very broad Australian voice came over the air, ‘If you’re going to die, die like a man.’ And this was the sort of thing that went on. The problem was that the American force [AFM?]were broadcasting on a similar frequency and it was the signals weren’t getting through as well as they ought to but anyway of course, when we got the order to go in and bomb it was just like Derby Day. All these aircraft ploughing down on the target. It was successful but we had a problem. We’d just dropped our bombs and we’d had an aircraft, something rattle us about with an updraft coming up and that. It was a bit rough but we’d just dropped our bombs and Norman, the bomb aimer, lying down in the front, he didn’t have time to say anything he just said, ‘Oh Christ’ and an aircraft blew up underneath us and turned us over. We were upside down and I can say I half rolled a Lanc [laughs]. So there we were, upside down at eight thousand feet and coming out you just couldn’t pull it out like that because the high speed stalled the aircraft so it took us a little while to come out and we were down to about a thousand feet by the time we sorted things out. Going very, very fast way beyond the [all up] speed of a Lancaster. We were doing nearly four hundred miles an hour. Four hundred knots as it was in those days and, but the aircraft just had scorch marks and a little bit of creaky stuff but there we are. Once you got sorted out you checked on the crew. ‘Alright, Harry?’ The rear gunner. ‘Yes skip.’ ‘Alright, Tommy?’ ‘Yes.’ Wireless op. ‘Alright, Taffy?’ And the response I got was, ‘Blood. Blood,’ and I thought, ‘Oh Christ, what’s happened?’ So I pulled the curtain back and there’s Taffy wiping his head and that’s all we knew and, ‘Oh God, what’s happened to Taffy,’ and Taffy, what happens when you’re flying at those, those temperatures, those heights, temperatures, the lowest temperature we had was minus forty seven and you had an elsan at the back of the aircraft which if you went and used that if you sat down on the elsan like that and you left a bit of your behind, behind ‘cause it was like you’d have an ice cube sticking on your fingers. You couldn’t do that so what the lads had they had a large [fuel] tin with the top cut off which they passed around the aircraft as a pee can and this pee can was kept down by the wireless operator which was the warmest place ‘cause it didn’t freeze when it was down there. And Taffy said now you can still see this pee can arriving with negative gravity and tipping all over him. When we were falling, coming out, recovering from the dive which we got in to and of course when you got back there was no question of going to get cleaned up. You had to go straight to be debriefed and of course he wasn’t exactly flavour of, flavour of the month which was, which was poor old Taffy. Still gets his leg pulled unmercifuly about that.
CB: I’m going to suggest we have a break.
RW: Yes fine.
CB: For a moment. So thank you very –
[pause]
CB: What it’s doing? We’re now recording again.
RW: Yeah.
CB: I’ve tried to do the playback but that didn’t work so we’re recording again now and I’m just hoping everything’s worked because it’s so good and I’m just looking at the numbers.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve come to the point where you were inverted.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Would you just like to describe before we go on to other things just how did you get the aircraft upright?
RW: Well -
CB: Because you can’t turn, roll it. Can you?
RW: Well we had to, to a certain extent with being upside down. You just imagine an aircraft being upside down you had to get it the right way up and the only thing you can do is turn it around so while we were plummeting, plummeting downwards and getting rather fast we sort of half rolled the thing out. Sort of almost like a very poor barrel roll that we flew. So, we were upside down and you turned over and came out sort of in that direction so you didn’t do a full roll. It was sort of almost like a half roll like almost like a half missing out the last bit of a barrel roll.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Coming out but because of the weight it was hard work but you didn’t think of it as hard, you didn’t think of it as work at the time you just sort of had to get out of it. Get it back.
CB: Yes, of course.
RW: Flying again but, and you just couldn’t pull the stick back and get the aircraft flying again because you could develop what they called a high speed stall cause the wing stalls at fourteen degrees and if you’re mushing down it increases the angle of attack very rapidly and you get what was called a high speed stall so this is where the training came in with these other flying, these little experiences we had in training. So, we just really tried to come, come out as gently as we possibly could. You certainly had to pull back on the stick to get control but trying not to mush it down so you really tried to fly it out which we did in the end, going very, very fast.
CB: You say we. Was the engineer helping you?
RW: Yes, well all he could do was pull the throttles back or push the throttles forward apart from being spread, spread across the floor. You know, the poor navigators instruments are all over the place. In that respect think of the navigators instruments all over the place my little wireless op oh he was a little terror and my navigator and he were chalk and cheese, vastly different characters and one occasion my navigator asked for a QDM from the wireless operator and Taffy said a very rude word telling him to go away and Alec looked back and found there was Taffy with his radio set, the old 1154 55 bits of the set on the floor trying to repair it and he couldn’t give him a QDM but he said [?] [laughs] so that was the atmosphere but they were a great crew, great crew. But there you are. We pulled ourselves out and we got ourselves out and we got back with having done the crash landing as I say. But the raid that I think affected us more than anything was the Nuremberg raid. The raid on Nuremberg. It was the raid that really should never have happened but we just discovered this afterwards reading books and things the fact that the, the uncertainty in Bomber Command headquarters about whether it should go on or shouldn’t go.
CB: It was to do with the fog, wasn’t it?
RW: Pardon?
CB: It was to do with the fog.
RW: Yeah. Yeah, well apparently there was a front coming up over Germany and the idea was that the route was going to be clear and the target was going to be er the route was going to be cloud covered and the target was going to be clear but the movement of the front wasn’t right and of course the, all the route was clear and the cloud over the target and the winds were wrong, all wrong.
CB: Oh.
RW: And all the hundred odd mile winds and this sort of thing were going on and nearly all in the wrong direction. Even the pathfinders, even the wind finders didn’t get the right places for the right system for the wind and so some of the pathfinders were marking Schweinfurt and different targets and Alec, my navigator, who was insistent on being a very precise little man he got us to the target and we actually flew to the target but by the time we were flying out the operation was delayed. Put back, put back and put back twice. So, we were going to bomb about five past twelve sort of thing like this. And we went off, a little bit in daylight taking off and we got, when we got to the French German border we’d seen sixteen aircraft shot down and to do what you used to do you used to report this to the navigator and he’d log it so they could get a record of where the aircraft went down and when he got to sixteen Alec said, ‘I don’t want to hear any more.’ So, we didn’t tell him anymore but we saw no end of stuff and coming across we were supposed to come south of the Ruhr which we did but a lot of people went straight over the top of the Ruhr and the carnage there. And just on the controversial long leg, what they called the long leg which was from the French from France right across to northern, north of the target, north of Nuremberg there was a two hundred and sixty five mile leg which was unusual ‘cause you usually had diversions and that sort of thing and it just so happened that there were two German night fighter beacons on the route Ider and Otto and it just so happened that their night fighters were assembling at the beacons all at the right time for them. So, there we were, we were ploughing along. We were very, very fortunate. We managed to keep out of trouble. We did have trouble but nothing drastic so we carried on and what we saw over the beacons was quite considerable. Lots of aircraft being shot at. We could see the tracers, German tracers going on, and this was a raid where the Germans first used the system called schragemusik whereby instead of having guns firing directly at the rear gunner they knew that there was no ventral armament on the Lancaster at all so this very astute German chap said, ‘Well, let’s have the guns pointing upwards,’ so they had two 20mm cannons pointing up, about sixty degrees. So, they used to fly underneath you and you knew nothing. You didn’t know they were there at all until the shells started to fly past. We, we were lucky. On one occasion we saw the shells coming upwards to us just on our starboard side so we managed to take evasive action but we didn’t know what it was, we didn’t know why they were coming up that way until many years later when we discovered they had this schragemusik and one German shot down forty two aircraft using that equipment. He did five in one night which was amazing so this added to the attrition rate of the raid at all. We were very, very fortunate. Alec, the navigation was spot on and we passed a target which we saw in the distance Schweinfurt which was being bombed which we didn’t know it was Schweinfurt then but we said, Alec said, ‘That can’t be right.’ So we carried on and actually arrived at Nuremberg which was cloud covered and we just, Norman had just happened to see a break in the little clouds so we bombed there. I think we bombed Nuremberg. We were certainly over Nuremberg. Whether we actually bombed Nuremberg you can’t really say because we couldn’t take a photograph because of the photoflood. It wouldn’t show anything on the photo apart from cloud but there was a massive explosion on our, on our left hand side which apparently somebody had hit a munition train just outside Nuremberg and this had this enormous explosion so we knew something had happened. And of course we had to come back when it was a long leg. There was some fighter activity on the way back but it was such and the lads when they used to go on these raids the lads, I didn’t get involved but the lads used to have a kitty. They put some pennies in this kitty and the ones who guessed the most number of aircraft shot down or most accurate number of aircraft shot down got the kitty and Curly my engineer got it that night because he said a hundred. He estimated a hundred and when we got back for debriefing the intelligence people were very sceptical about the thing. Oh it couldn’t have happened no its near going to happen but when our squadron records came in we sent twenty six aircraft that night and we lost seven which was nearly a third of the squadron that night. Sixty people, you know, all gone that night and it left it was really strange. It was. We were like zombies, you know. We just walked around. Not upset. Just mind blown and we went back we couldn’t sleep. We just walked around until daylight and the squadron didn’t operate for a little while after that. But what happened with the, when we got back used to go for a flying meal when we, when we got back and when we got back to the mess there were no waitresses there at all. All the meals were left on the counter and a little notice on the wall saying, ‘Please help yourselves.’ And all these girls had gone into the restroom and they were crying their eyes out ‘cause of the losses on the squadron. You know, they really felt the effect of that. Moreso than we did in many respects. Norman, my bomb aimer, who was always girl mad for the ladies wanted to go and console them but the WAAF officers said. ‘No. Leave them to it.’ And so we had to help ourselves to the meal and this was the atmospheres they had on the squadrons you know. The thoughts of the people working. When you think of a squadron where you’ve got something like anything a hundred and eighty, two hundred aircrew you’ve got something like two thousand, two and a half thousand ground staff who without them we couldn’t have kept flying, you know. So they, and they don’t get the credit that they justly deserve and our ground crew were wonderful. Little Willy [Severn] and Nobby Burke and they were part of the aircraft, they were part of the aircrew and I kept in touch with them for many, many years until he died just a few years ago at the age of ninety seven.
CB: Really.
RW: Lived up in Glasgow and Perth, near Perth and when I visited him and his lovely wife Annie he used to sit in his room all by himself just looking out the window and saying, ‘Aye. Och aye. Aye. Och aye,’ and remembering all the things that were going on. We were very, very fortunate on the squadron he was on the squadron for many, many months. He joined the squadron up at Holme on Spalding Moor and he only ever lost two aircraft so we so lucky to be with him. Mind you, we lost an aircraft for him which was, didn’t go down very well. So, but again, again these characters you’d come back with holes and bits missing and they’d be waiting for you when you got back and they’d get these things sorted out and repaired more or less for the, for the next night so, in all sorts of weathers. The, being a dispersed camp we didn’t have any hangars to work in. All the aircraft were stacked outside and, you know, in February ‘44 we had something like three foot of snow and sixteen foot snowdrifts and the station was cut off completely and these lads were working on the aircraft changing plugs, doing servicing on the aircraft. They worked, Willy said they worked in pairs. When one was working and his hands got frozen he went and warmed up. Another chap took over so they were working outside in all these sorts of conditions.
CB: There were hangars but they couldn’t put the aircraft in was it?
RW: Well, there were hangars when they had major things to do. Engine changes -
CB: Right.
RW: And these sort of things. They would take them in for major servicing. [Eight star] servicing, for a major servicing but apart from that they were just kept outside in the cold and the wet and in the war it could be anything.
CB: I’m going to stop there again because we are going to have a cup of tea.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Thank you.
RW: Oh lovely.
[pause]
CB: Right, so we’re back on again now.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And we’re just doing the -
RW: You finished the -
CB: Rerun of the Mailly but I think it’s useful because I’ve heard this, somebody mentioned before.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Of the attrition -
RW: Yeah.
CB: And because of the milling around -
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So why was it that the marking was so delayed causing the traffic jam?
RW: Well the again Cheshire was a brilliant pilot and a brilliant pathfinder and he was a perfectionist and again, forgive me if I’ve mentioned but the briefing that we had as the ordinary aircrew main force was to be very precise with the bombing because we didn’t want to hit any of the village. The village next door to the target. And he was being the same and he wasn’t satisfied with the markers that were going down and he said, ‘Well, don’t come in. We’re remarking.’ So he was re-marking the target to get in to the correct position for, for the [Mailly] raid and because of this it was delaying. It was, saying delayed you’re only talking about minutes. You’re not talking about hours, you know, but five minutes, ten minutes. An awful lot can happen in five, ten minutes and he was waiting until the markers got, really got them organised because there were two marking spots. One east and one west. One on the railway. One on the barracks because it was timed for midnight because this was the time when the people were coming back to their billets and were getting their, and they [wanted to kill the] troops.
CB: Yeah, of course.
RW: Troop concentrations so he was being as perfect as he possibly could and in consequence with the markers not being as accurate as he liked he stopped it and said we’ll remark again.
CB: Because it’s a French target?
RW: Because, well, not so much a French target. The target which was right next door to the French village.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And he didn’t want to kill -
CB: That’s what I meant. Yes.
RW: Didn’t want to kill, bomb the village. So, we were briefed and presumably they must have been briefed as well to be as perfect as they possibly could on their marking so as not to kill French people.
CB: Course.
RW: So this, and this came to light too, many, many years later here, by a little girl who was doing her degree at the Sorbonne in Paris relating to British and American efforts during the war and she came here and interviewed me here and stopped here for quite a little while and had a little chat about the Mailly raid and this sort of thing and she was quite concerned, you know. She was only what twenty, twenty one year old but she was only concerned about the fact that that attitude was taken to stop people, French people being killed. She got a first degree anyway which was rather nice.
CB: You obviously briefed her well.
RW: Yes, we still send Christmas cards to each other. I haven’t seen her for years and years and years. I wonder what she is doing now, whether she is married or what. But she was a nice little girl and I’ve got some pictures of her somewhere in there.
CB: Yeah.
RW: So, yes, so the, that was the result of the Mailly raid and the Nuremberg of course, raid, as well of course had although we’d had a lot of damage on other raids and quite traumatic things on other raids the Nuremberg raid left the biggest scar than any, mental scars was far, far greater than the physical scar and that really got sunk home when you realise what the attrition rates was. And the reports I think say there was ninety six, ninety seven aircraft shot down over the target but there were over a hundred wrecked completed so there must have been about a hundred and sixteen, a hundred and twenty aircraft written off altogether with all those, not all those aircrew but I think there was something like five hundred and sixty five, five hundred and five hundred and fifty aircrew killed that night, one night. The Nuremberg raid. And there were more aircrew killed on that one night then there was in the whole of the month of the Battle of Britain, which, you can’t compare the sort of flying that we were doing but the figures are quite remarkable when you think of what was going on. But being thickies as we were we knew it went on and we didn’t realise the implications of what was going on. We just got on with and had to do a job. But again, we had the trip, we had a little experience which was a trip to Munich. We were briefed for nine hours twenty five minutes petrol and we were given nine hours forty odd minutes petrol to fly on with instructions to land in the south of England if we had problems with getting back with the fuel consumption and it was again the weather wasn’t as forecast so we chugged off to Munich. Rather a long haul. A very long haul. Beautiful scenery over the Alps. We cross the Alps three times it was wonderful. Twice because it was twice the target and coming back we had problems. We lost part of a port wing, part of the leading edge of the port wing, we lost instruments, lost the pitot heads so that caused us little problems. Not exactly flying by the seat of our pants but -
CB: But you had no air speed indicator.
RW: So we were chugging back and as we say the leading edge of the port wing had disappeared somewhere and we’d had icing on the props. That was the amazing, we used to get icing on the propellers. And these were flying, the icing used to fly off and rattle against the side of the aircraft. It was just like flak for hitting the side of the aircraft and I’ve still got a bit of flak that came into my aeroplane. It’s on the table over there. Yes, so coming back it took a lot, lot longer than we anticipated and we were rather slow coming back to the extent that we were coming back over France in daylight and we were getting halfway across France and we saw these two little specks appearing flashing towards us and, ‘Oh Christ, what’s this going on?’ A couple of spitfires. They had been sent out to escort us back. So we were escorted back but with the engineers and navigation and fuel conservation we got back to Ludford having flown for ten and a quarter hours.
CB: Wow.
RW: But again the ground crew had that aircraft ready again for the next night which is, which is, what they get up to is wonderful. So they’re the sort of things that happened on raids. Another story, we came over Stettin one night. We lost two engines, two starboard engines. We managed to get one going half again so we came back from Stettin on two and a half engines.
CB: Was that flak damage?
RW: Yeah. Yeah. That was flak damage yes and when we got back Curly, he was a dreadful tease, he used to tease the WAAFs dreadfully and this poor little girl he teased her so much that when he was having his meal, operational meal she said, ‘I’m not going to serve you with your meal, cheeky bugger. I’m not going to serve your meal.’ He did get his meal of course but she wouldn’t serve him. And coming back off this trip we were so late we were, everybody, the committee of adjustment had been in and started to take our kit away. They didn’t think we were coming back but when we got back we got to the mess and this poor little kid was in tears, ‘Oh I shall never do that again.’ This was the atmosphere of these kids and girls. Wonderful. They were the sorts of things that happened. My last, very last operation was to again a transport plant target which was the original D-Day which was on the 4th 5th of June and like on the briefing we knew we were on the battle order but we had no idea where we were going and when we got out to the dispersal and asked what we were, what the petrol load and bomb load was Willy said, ‘Eeh,’ he said, ‘You’ve got full tanks and overloads and no bombs.’ And you were thinking, ‘Oh God. What’s going on? Are we going to Italy, Russia, whatever.’ No. What was happening we were flying a square circle around the invasion beaches giving false instructions to some of the shipping people imitate a convoy and also reporting on the fighter activity, German fighter activity to report back to help with the invasion and of course the invasion was put back twenty four hours because of the weather. So they took our overload tanks on, put a few bombs on board and we went off and we bombed Sangatte. Didn’t do a very good job obviously. So, that was our very last trip, Sangatte, and when we got back, because of the weather, very adverse weather we were diverted to Faldingworth which is only about thirty odd miles from Ludford, our base and we slept on a chair in the mess for the rest of the night and when we got up in the morning and having breakfast the station commander, Group Captain King arrived and he said, ‘Come on. I’m taking you back.’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got an aeroplane outside you know.’ And he said ‘You’re not touching another aircraft on the squadron. That was your last operation.’ So we just left the aircraft. How they got it back I don’t know but he took us back in his little hut, little, his little van. We went back and that was my last operation and mentioning our attrition rate on the squadron, in early 1944 our attrition rate was something like sixty two percent.
CB: Gee.
RW: Which was, you know, it’s unbelievable when you look.
CB: This is because they were targeted specifically.
RW: Yeah. Targeted. Very vulnerable. A) Because they could home onto our frequencies and B) Because we were on every bombing raid that went out. So there we are. The next morning I had to go and have a little interview with the station commander to give a pat on the back. He was a lovely chap Group Captain King. Curly, my engineer had finished because he’d done an operation with his previous crew he was finished the night before and he’d been out on the booze. Went down in to Ludford on the booze and when I had the interview with Group Captain King the following morning he said, ‘Your bloody crew.’ And, ‘Oh God. What’s going on?’ And he said, ‘Your engineer was down in the pub last night spouting about what he got up to and whatever and there just happened to be an intelligence officer there.’ And he just, no he was just pulling my leg really in a way but he said yes thank you very much for what you’ve done and I was given my green endorsement for the Mailly, for the raid where we had the mid-air collision and he had a curtain covering a chart on the wall which gave the crew statistics on the wall and he pulled the curtain back and he said, ‘There you are. You are the first crew that has finished as a crew for over six months’. Yeah.
CB: Amazing.
RW: And you didn’t even realise then. Appreciate what you -
CB: Yeah.
RW: What the attitude was but it really was remarkable and then of course I wasn’t allowed to touch a Lancaster again ever. Until 1977. Until the 101 squadron had a 60th anniversary of the formation of the squadron and they tried to get, I was asked. Martin Middlebrook was involved and he wrote a book and he was, he used to live not far away and then he was trying to get all of our crew together again and did I know where they were. And I had a few addresses so we managed to find 5 of us and we couldn’t find Taffy, could never find Taffy and we tried to find Taffy and we got in to contact with the people of his uncle who ran a pub and he wouldn’t tell us where he was and we assumed he was either in jail or in hospital but there, he’s still about but he never knew anything about it. But anyway, we had this meeting with five of my crew were there in 1977 in Waddington at 101. The Lancaster was there and at the dinner the previous night the PMC stood up and gave a little chat and said, ‘You’ve got the Lancaster here. It’s had an oil leak it needs an air test in the morning. We’ve got a crew here.’ So we flew in the Battle of Britain Lanc and did about a twenty, twenty five minute air test.
CB: Fantastic.
RW: In the Battle of Britain Lanc which was quite a thrill, quite a thrill.
CB: Amazing.
RW: And it’s wonderful that they’ve kept the thing going.
CB: Yes.
RW: It’s great. So after the war, I stayed in the air force after the war.
CB: Yes excuse me for interrupting but after the ops what did you do then because we’re not at the end of the war?
RW: Oh no. Yes. Yes.
CB: We’re still a year away.
RW: Yes. After the operations, yes normally you were, your crew tended to try and keep as much of the crew together and were posted away and most of the crew were posted to 28 OTU. And I was sent to 82 OTU. I never knew why or found out why. Typing error? Whatever. Anyway, I arrived at 82 OTU which was all Australian station and I was one of the very few Englishmen there as aircrew. One of the only aircrew there as an examiner, screen pilot, and they didn’t think much of this pommie bastard arrived in their midst and it wasn’t exactly a comfortable place to be but I’d only been there a couple of weeks when I had a bit of a problem, a symptom from the flying in the war. I had a perforated ulcer. Again, attributed to stress, whatever. So anyway, I had this haemorrhaging and I went sick, reported to the Australian doc, went sick and he didn’t think much of this whinging pommie bastard so medicine on duty. That was, that was, that was it. We just, and very shortly after that I was posted to Gamston where, which was a Wimpy OTU so I was flying in Wimpies there. Met my first fiancé there which was a lovely little WAAF in the camp. Audrey, Audrey Simms. Again, my luck held out, a lot of luck was involved on the squadron, tremendous lot of luck on the squadron and again my luck held out. My friend, Tommy Thompson, who’d been on operations, same as myself, screened and I was also the sports officer on the squadron and I had to do an air test as well and Tommy said, ‘Well you go and get the sports kit.’ On Wednesday afternoon the whole place shut down in those days for sport so I went to get the sports equipment and Tommy did my air test in a Wimpy and the Wimpy blew up and he was killed. Poor chap. Poor Tommy. And the only way we could recognise him when we found him was his ring on his finger. And he was a Geordie like myself and I was given the task of organising his funeral, went up to his funeral and because he didn’t get married during the war he got married very shortly after the end of his tour. He didn’t get married until after he’d finished his tour and his wife was expecting a baby, lived at Wallsend near Newcastle and of course I had to go to the funeral and there was this poor lass and it was rather sad. Yeah. So, these are the sort of things that happened and the luck you can achieve on these sort of things. So, anyway, because of my sins and flying I was due to go back on a second tour, supposedly on Mosquitoes, in early ‘45 but the attrition rate had dropped considerably at that time and there was a glut of aircrew coming though so they said, ‘Don’t come back on operations.’ So I was sent down to Lulsgate Bottom which was an instructor’s school. So I went down to the instructor’s school at Lulsgate Bottom which is now Bristol airport and I had a nice time down there learning to drink scrumpy which was, which was great. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely place down there. I enjoyed it very much. Again had little problems with the instructing. Flying with the instructor one night and the radial engine, the pot burst and the pistons were coming out through the through the canopy around the engine. So we had a little single engine landing there but that was fine. I ended up there and became an instructor. So the instructing I was sent to be a place called Desborough. I had the choice of going to Carlisle or Northampton so I chose Desborough and I was stationed there as a screen pilot and flying instructor, Wimpies. This story extends a little bit. A very good friend of mine who became my first fiancé her friend she was stationed, became stationed at Wyton, Cambridge and my friend and I used to go and visit her and he, Jock Murray, he was a married man. He had a girlfriend as well, a WAAF at Wyton so we used to go and stay at the George hotel at Huntingdon when she was there but sadly we were sitting on the banks of the river at Earith. I’d already bought the engagement ring and whatever and she said, ‘I’m sorry but that’s it’ and she went off with a married pilot on Wyton, pilot and that was it. I came back to Desborough rather tail, my tail between my legs sort of thing and my squadron commander, he knew what the situation, we were very good friends and he knew what was going on and one of the pilots who had been at Wyton on big stuff he was converting on to Dakotas and that’s what we were doing in Desborough and he came to Desborough to be converted on to Dakotas. He didn’t, I knew him but he didn’t know me and my flight commander, Lofty [Loader] he said, ‘You have him as a pupil.’ So I had this poor soul as a pupil. All the first details in the morning and all the last details at night. He complained to the boss and he said, ‘Nothing to do with me. Get on with it.’ But he was brilliant. He was a good pilot but he didn’t know anything about that at all. And again strange things happened at Desborough. When I was there another crew came through at, which er, yes this other crew came through whereby the pilot had a wireless operator who eventually joined the company I joined after, after the war as a wireless operator and I had to screen the crew on a cross country out over Wales. A claggy night. Not a very nice night at all and his skipper didn’t say, ‘I don’t think we ought to go. The weather.’ ‘Oh it’s all right,’ Well the weather we flew in the war we flew in all sorts of weather. They said, ‘Oh no it’s alright Alfie,’ So, off we went and coming back they asked to get a QDM and he couldn’t on his little set. He couldn’t get a QDM and fortunately I had been to the Empire Radio School and, and, and knew a little about electrics so I went back, got this bearing, give it to the skipper and when we let down there was Desborough the identification lights DE flashing, I said, ‘There you are. That’s how it’s done.’ And I had to give this wireless operator an adverse, not exactly an adverse report but not a very favourable one. He eventually became a director of the company I was working for and he didn’t, he didn’t, he didn’t like me very much at all because I was one of the lower minions in the works and he was a director of purchasing. Not a nice, not a very nice chap. Anyway, there we are so that was, that was little situation but Desborough from there I went and was posted to Transport Command, had to go into Transport Command and there I was flying Dakotas and doing mainly conversion work flying Dakotas. I had some very nice jobs to do and stationed at Oakington. This was in 1947 when I first went to work in Oakington and I was the flying wing training officer for four squadrons 10, 27, 30 and 46 squadrons and this was early ‘48 when the thought of the airlift came into being and this was quite an amazing situation because the squadron as I say had this four, the unit had the four squadrons on board and I was working with all the four squadrons. Then when you are going on the airlift all the aircrew had to be completely categorised and had to have a current incident rating so I was kept very, very busy. One night well one month one day I did something like ten and a half hours flying testing just to get them ready to go on the airlift. So, there we went and when we got them all, got them all off we, the WingCo said, ‘Right have a few days left, go on the airlift for a month and have a rest.’ So that was fine so I thought now do I go home and see my mum and dad or do I go and see my fiancé. I was getting married in October. And I said, ‘Hmmn I’ll go and see my fiancé,’ which I obviously did. Went back on the airlift and when I got to [Rumsdorf] which we were then I went to see the flight commander chappie in charge of the flying and I said, ‘Where do I go for briefing?’ And he said, ‘You don’t.’ He gave me a piece of, a sheet of A4, ten sheets of A4 with all the instructions on and said, ‘Go away and read those, inwardly digest. You’re flying in the morning.’ And that was it. That was it. And it was strange how the flying did, is it alright talking about the airlift?
CB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.
RW: Yeah, because this is forty, a long time after the war but there we are. How the airlift came about was the fact that the Russians had taken over Berlin and they wouldn’t allow any people into Berlin for about eight weeks. So nobody was going in and they really split Berlin in half. They took over the east sector but they had to keep the airlift going, had to keep the situation going because the embassies of the French, British and American embassies there so they had to keep flying going in. They couldn’t stop the flying but they could affect the roads. There were originally six corridors going in but the Russians said you don’t need six. So they cut out, cut the north one out and the south one out and the east one out so they only had three corridors going in. The Americans were doing the, the southern one and we were doing the north one and we all came out on the centre one. But when they started the airlift all this happened in a very, very short period of time. The Americans, a chap called Lucius Clay was in charge of the system flying then in Berlin and he called every possible aircraft back from the states, even from Alaska, to come down to [?] which was the southern part of Germany and, to organise the thing properly he asked a chap called [Tupper, Tupper?] who was in charge of the Burma hump flying over the hump in Burma and he was asked to organise that. The first trip he went on, this was the very, very beginning all, all the Americans were there first and they’d gone off he went off on one of these very first trips and when he got to, got to Berlin there they were going to land at Tempelhof. He found there were aircraft stacked from five hundred feet to five thousand feet and everybody, all the Americans, were clamouring like mad to get permission to land and there was very little organisation at all. Two aircraft, two of the American aircraft had crashed on the runway. One crashed on the runway and was being repaired, and went on the fire and the other crashed and gone over the end of the runway. Nobody was killed but [Tupper Tupper] realised what was going on. He sent all the aircraft back to base even with their loads and got landed himself at Gatow at er [Wunsdorf] and at Tempelhof, landed at Tempelhof and he wrote out orders and all regulations for all flying on the Berlin airlift. Each aircraft had a different speed, different height to fly and all, all went, all went off and when we were at [Wunsdorf] at the time and when you went off you flew to a beacon north of Ber, we flew to a beacon at [?] just north of Berlin where you, when you arrive there you gave instructions, or you were given instructions of how to land and what your load off and we flew in everything. Literally everything in to Berlin because when the Russians took over they closed their frontier and they closed the, all the rail, road and water transport into Berlin and there was something like two million two hundred thousand West Berliners with twenty seven days rations of everything they’d left and they’d taken the generators from the power stations away, they’d taken the gas and that was all rationed and these poor Berliners were left with twenty seven days of nothing. I was very fortunate. I gave a little talk to some aircrew at Leamington and one of the chaps brought along a German lady who had been a little girl, a young little at the time the Russians took over and she was, she spoke English quite well but a very, very strong German accent and she of course she was quite an elderly lady then and she said she and her elder sister, she was young teenager and her sister was seventeen, eighteen and they were walking through Berlin and the Russians came along, a group of Russians came along and they herded all the girls and women they could possibly find into this building. The older sister knew what was going to happen and she hid this young lady, was a young lady, hid her and all the rest were gang raped for the rest of the day and she said, she was telling me that her sister never ever spoke of that again. She couldn’t talk about it. There was something like two million women raped. Two thousand committed suicide. You know, and these figures you know and the Berliners were so appreciative of what we did. We literally flew in everything. Naughty story. When we were on taking a few coal fuel and flour everything in and when you got to the beacon as I say you had to call to get landing instructions and declare what your load was so you could be directed to the correct unloading bay when you landed and the Germans were doing this and they could turn an aircraft around in eight minutes you know. Incredible. So there we were we were going towards this beacon and I said to the wireless op cause I didn’t have a crew I had the nav leader and the signals and I said to Jacko, ‘Call up and get us instructions.’ So he gave instructions and they said, ‘What is your load?’ And he said, ‘Medical supplies. Mainly manhole covers,’ and they were all sanitary towels. It didn’t end there because when we landed we were directed to the heavy unloading bay and we weren’t exactly flavour of the month. We didn’t half get a rocket but there again when you were flying in there was no question of doing an overshoot and going around again. If you couldn’t land you just had to go back to base and start again.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And when you were there they had all your aircraft lined up. Your day was split into three eight hour shifts and you were doing as many raids, as many sorties as you could in eight hours and then you had the next 8 hours off and then you flew in the next 8 hours and this went on seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Day and night. There was only one day it never happened and that was through extensive fog. So, and when the aircraft were lined up the ground crew had to do a pre-flight test on every aircraft and part of their equipment the wireless operators, wireless, ground wireless operators were a pair of bellows and when they got on the aircraft they used the bellows to blow this, the flour and coal dust off the instruments so they could check them. So this was the sort of thing that was going on. When we were at [Rumsdorf] they also had the York there and the payload of the York was something like what fifteen thousand pounds and the Dakota’s about seven and a half and one of our skippers said, Flight Lieutenant Sheehan, he went off in the Dakota and he said, ‘It’s like a brick. It’s like flying a brick.’ And he had an awful job getting it off the ground, an awful job getting it there, an awful job landing it and when they landed it they found they’d put a York load on the Dakota so he was flying at double his all up weight.
CB: Gee.
RW: And it says a lot for the skipper and the aircraft you know.
CB: Absolutely.
RW: You know, these sort of things went on. Amazing. But that was a long time after, after the squadron. And on the squadron looking back and talking to people on the squadron about the squadron about the air force in general they said, ‘Well you know in our group, in one group we were losing seventy aircraft a month.’ Every Bomber Command station lost nine hundred aircrew. You know, it’s amazing the figures that went on like that and a gentleman did some statistics working out how it affected a hundred air crew and of the hundred aircrew fifty one were killed. Twelve were shot down and badly injured, five were badly injured so they couldn’t fly again, three were, so three were killed on landings back at base, twelve became prisoners of war and one escaped to come back and of the remaining of that hundred aircrew only twenty four remained. Nearly all with some medical problem afterwards which, is you know, is -, I had my share. The sort of things that happened they said personally the sort of things that happened to me afterwards apart from this ulcer which affected me for most of my life until I was here at Desborough, at er Kenilworth when I moved in here and one night I had a massive haemorrhage. I couldn’t get upstairs and the doc came and it was a peculiar system he had. I was not allowed food, I wasn’t allowed to get out of bed, I wasn’t allowed to do anything with work and I lived on an ounce of milk and water for six weeks. Couldn’t do anything and I remember sitting down where we are now sitting now watching the television, watching the cricket with the doctor, chatting about what was going on and it was amazing. In consequence I can eat anything, anything at all doesn’t bother me but alcohol doesn’t like me. I can drink it but I can enjoy it for about a week afterwards so you know I don’t drink very much now. I’ve had my share. But this is the sort of thing that happened and what still happens now. One operation we were on going on to the Ruhr and the Ruhr, the old Happy Valley and we were approaching the Ruhr and it really it looked deadly and the flak, there was an old saying, the flak was so thick you could get out and walk on it and it was like that searchlights, fighters going on and the first time I ever experienced terror and it was most peculiar. I’d heard about it but I’d never experienced it and I literally was shaking and really I couldn’t do what I was supposed to do so I dropped my seat so I couldn’t see outside and funnily enough I said a little prayer that I hadn’t said since I was about six years old. Mum and dad used to sit by the side of my bed and say this little prayer which ended up, ‘If I die before I wake I pray the lord my soul will take.’ Why I said it I don’t know, no idea but I said this little prayer and the terror disappeared and I raised my seat and I could just carry on. You’re still frightened of course but all the terror disappeared. And we had similar situations again afterwards but no terror so whether the power of prayer you know whether this happens or not. Some of the lads we used to take the mickey a bit ‘cause they used to kneel down by their beds and say their prayers or kneel down by the aircraft before they got on and said their prayers and thought they were a bit sissy until you had this sort of experience yourself and then you realise there’s something in it. It’s all, I’m sure it was all mental you know. Some of these sort of things happened. When I laid my head down on the pillow even now, not every, if I’ve been reading a books like some of the air force books and service books that come out now, if I’ve been reading these books about aeroplanes and I put my head down on the pillow I can see flak bursting and little sparks flying about. It doesn’t affect me. I’m fine. No problem at all and this sort of thing, you know, just reminds you of the old days and now talking about it so much now it’s almost like a myth, you know. As if you’re telling fairy stories. Did I really do it, you know but yes it does once you’ve experienced those sorts of things you never forget them. They’re always there. And some, some fixed more than others. We had one navigator who, they were badly shot up and some of the, a lot of the crew were injured. The aircraft was on fire and he got out of his seat to walk back to the, the aircraft was still flying, he walked to the back of the aircraft to jump out the back. No parachute. Some of the crew stopped him and said, ‘No. Don’t.’ He couldn’t talk. He couldn’t speak. He was just a zombie completely. Couldn’t speak and when he got back, they got back alright he never spoke. Never spoke at all. Went to the sick quarters for a couple of weeks. Never spoke, could understand a thing and he was sent to the service hospital at Matlock, the psychological hospital at Matlock and he was there for several, a couple of weeks and he never spoke until one of the nurses dropped an instruments in a tin tray and he woke up. He said, ‘Oh Christ, they’re on fire. They’re on fire.’ And he got his speech back again. He was invalided out of the service as you know unfit for flying. He was alright but that experience he had of these weeks of not talking you know and this is the sort of thing that happened to these sort of folks and, you know, when you think of the experiences you had and how bloody lucky you’d been all these whiles. And, your luck. Yes, I think you bought yourself your own luck to a certain extent. In my crew, were such that although vastly different characters, we were all great comrades and great friends. Great friends. And you know this helped enormously the operational flying, in my instructing and examining after the war when Oakington was closed down and all the four squadrons dispersed 30 squadron was posted to Abingdon and having, me being flying wing training, I thought I was out of a job. 30 squadron had taken over a VIP element from 24 squadron and for my sins I was posted to 30 squadron at Abingdon to become the training officer on 30 squadron and to get our qualifications, to get my, I had to go to Central Flying School to be examined and that was quite the thing. The fact that I had an instrument rating and the fact that I had done something like fifteen hundred hours instrument flying I was allocated a master green instrument rating and I became examiner and when I went down to the Central Flying School to become an examiner and a tester, an instructor, the instructor there, Flight Lieutenant Walker, a lovely man, when we finished the [CGI], said ‘There is a book. Take it away. Read the chapters about training and it’s all about what you learn about.’ And it was a book called the “Psychological Disorders of Flying Personnel” and the chapter on training illustrated the fact that you know even experienced people when being examined had a little bit of panic. It’s a bit of the white coat syndrome of the doctor with his stethoscope and things and you couldn’t really operate as you normally could and this was a chapter about that sort of thing. And this psychological business he gave me this book to take back home. And when I got back of course I used to examine all the crews but each crew had to be examined completely once a month. They had to do certain training exercises. One per month and the VIP pilots had to do the same as well but the VIP pilots were like a class apart. They wouldn’t have a, they insisted on having a separate crew room from us roughies and strange things happened with them. One occasion one of the pilots a chap called Van Reinfeld had to do a VIP trip the following day and he hadn’t done a little night, night flying exercise and I said, ‘Well it’s alright. I’ve got a spare navigator. You can do your little trip tonight. I’ll put you on early, you’ll be alright for tomorrow.’ And he said, ‘Well I can’t do it.’ He says, ‘My navigator has gone in to Abingdon and I don’t know where he is.’ I said, ‘I’ve got a spare navigator. It’s alright. It’s only a training trip. It’s not a VIP trip.’ And this chap, the replacement, a chap called Baxter who was a coloured boy wouldn’t fly with him. Refused to fly with him and I said, ‘Well you don’t, if you don’t fly with him you don’t get your trip tomorrow.’ He went to see Squadron Leader Reese the squadron commander and he said, ‘It’s nothing to do with me it’s to do with the training.’ And he went back and I said, ‘Well if you don’t do it. You don’t fly.’ And he went into Abingdon and scoured all the clubs and pubs, found his navigator, came back, flew late in the morning, early in the morning the next day and went off to do his trip the next day and that’s the sort of atmosphere they were. And the principal job of the Transport Command at 30 squadron were again, like all transport was glider towing and paratrooping and there was a big operation called Operation Longstop which was going on at Old Sarum and all the crews had to go down and join in the exercise and of course every pilot had to have an aeroplane. There wasn’t enough aeroplanes to go around and I was given an aeroplane and a pilot to fly with me who was a VIP pilot called [Ria.] He said, ‘I’m a VIP pilot. I don’t fly second dicky.’ And he wouldn’t fly. Refused to fly with me. Again, he saw the flight commander down at Old Sarum and the boss said. ‘Well if you don’t fly you don’t fly at all. Go back to base. Get back to base.’ He sent him back to base and these sort of characters they were an elite apart, you know. Brilliant fliers no doubt about it brilliant fliers and as I say we had to go down to Central Flying School to be examined and when you’re examined if anything went wrong and you didn’t fail any one part of the exercise two of the exams you had to write, reply a hundred percent. Safety and regulations, these sort of things and when you were, one of the exercises you had it do you were given all the met readings from various stations and you had to plot a synoptic chart and give a forecast for the next day, until midnight the next day, which I did and I said possibly get some rain by lunchtime tomorrow and whatever down the south of England and he called a Met man in and he said, ‘Oh that’s not going to happen. That’ll never happen.’ So I didn’t pass that exam so I had to go back, wait another month before I was going to be examined again. Blow me, the next day it started to rain so I rang up old Walker at Central Flying School and said, ‘Have you looked out the window?’ And he said, ‘You jammy bugger,’ he said, ‘I’ll put it in the post.’ So it was a great atmosphere. A wonderful atmosphere and 30 squadron had a wonderful atmosphere. Still has now. Still does wonderful work now. But the flying it left a great character in my life but I was married by then of course and we had a wonderful life with my wife in peacetime air force. Sadly, she became terribly ill when we were at Oakington and she started having terrible haemorrhages and this sort of thing and the, our local doc said, ‘You’d better take her home’ so we took her to her home in Desborough near Kettering and my mother who was a state certified midwife, she’d nursed all her life said, ‘You know the prognosis of this isn’t very great,’ you know and discovered that she had what they called a [? deformed] mole which is a pregnancy like a bunch of grapes and indicative of cancer. And they did scrapes they didn’t do scrapes in those days but they couldn’t find it and it was the cancer was deep seated in the womb and my mum said, you know ‘She can’t live very long.’ She was only about six months, nine months perhaps at the most so I resigned my commission to come out to look after her. Haven’t been, my last posting just about this the time this happened found was AOC far east to go VIP pilot, the AOC in the far east which I had to keep delaying, delaying, delaying because of Pat’s illness and eventually that was cancelled completely so I didn’t go. So, I resigned to come out on the condition that I renewed my qualifications every year and stayed on the reserve until I was, 1960 um and came out and poor old Pat died about ten months afterwards and with my lack of education I couldn’t get a grant to do any, I was hoping for a grant to go teaching but I couldn’t get a grant because I had no certificates or educational certificates. Fortunately, Pat, my wife’s father owned a factory. A packaging factory. So he said, ‘Come and work for me.’ So I went and worked in his factory on the marketing and sales. I can say for twenty seven years I travelled in cardboard boxes which was very kind of him. I got along very well with the old man. He was quite an eminent military man himself. Thinking of that sort of thing when I was at Abingdon, Oakington, I was going to get married and I was told I had to get permission to get married otherwise I wouldn’t get my marriage allowance ‘cause I was a little bit too young. So I was told I had to have an interview with the station commander which a chap called group captain [Byte Seagal] so I went and had an interview with him and my dad because of his health couldn’t do any serious work and he used to work for the Coop looking after the horses for the Coop stables so when we went for the interview with group captain [Byte Seagall], a peacetime group captain trying to get everything back to a peacetime protocol he said, ‘Who are you marrying?’ I said, ‘Well, Pat.’ ‘What does she do?’ And I said, ‘Well she does typing and bit of filing in an office.’ ‘Oh that’s interesting.’ ‘What does your father do?’ And I said, ‘He looks after horses.’ He said, ‘Newmarket?’ I said, ‘No. Coop.’ And this didn’t go down very well at all. And he said, ‘What about your father in law then?’ And I said, ‘Well he was colonel in chief of the Northamptonshire regiment. He got the MC in Gallipoli.’ ‘Ah now isn’t that interesting.’ I said. ‘My mother, my dad was in the navy. He got the DSM in the navy. My mother got the Royal Red Cross.’ ‘Now isn’t that interesting.’ Yes, I can get married. So I got permission to get married. And they were trying to get things back to peacetime protocol but after the war people like myself were asked to go up to Cranwell which was a training, a major training school then for aircrew and just to meet the people, not to meet, just to chat to the students and pupils and met one young man called, oh dear [pause] His dad was the president of the Nuremberg raids. Oh, what did they call him? Anyway, he was, he was his dad was this very eminent gentleman. Martin, [pause] oh dear, old age and memory don’t go very well together. Anyway, this gentleman he was on the Nuremberg trials. He organised the Nuremberg trials for the post war Germans and his son was on the Cranwell course and he eventually came down to 30 squadron and I said to him, you know, ‘What’s the last thing they taught you at Cranwell then?’ And they said, he said, ‘Don’t get associated with wartime commissioned officers.’ Because, in February ‘44 the directive came about saying all captains of heavy bombers had to be commissioned and my commissioning interview was with the accountant who gave me a cheque for ninety quid to go and buy a uniform with. Yeah. What do they call the chappie on the Nuremberg trials? Very eminent man. Very eminent barrister.
CB: Yeah. I can’t remember.
RW: Pardon?
CB: I can’t remember.
RW: No. Can’t remember. Anyway Martin didn’t like this system in the air force at all so he resigned and came out. But that was the sort of thing that was going on in those days and I was very, very fortunate to be able to have a job to work. I stayed and played with cardboard boxes. For two years I had to go to Marshals and be re-examined for, just to keep your hand in that all it was part of the condition for resigning. I did that for two years and the first time I went the instructor there said. ‘Well go on and do the exams and, what did you do?’ I told him what I did. ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Bugger it. Go on. Take a little chipmunk and take off. So I used to fly over Desborough and around the school where I was teaching and [laughs] no that, and I started learning, I taught myself aerobatics because the transport flying which is dead straight and level sort of stuff and I’d never flown aerobatics at all apart from slow rolling the Lancaster. It was great fun. Great fun. But they only did that for two years because they said it’s getting expensive and we’ve got squirty things now and so -
CB: Yeah.
RW: Just keep on the register.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And I was in the reserve until 1960 so really I had a wonderful career.
CB: Yeah, brilliant.
RW: Wonderful -
CB: Can I -
RW: Experiences I’ll never be forgetting and played an awful lot of luck and met some wonderful people and wonderful friends and with my crew when the squadron formed the association from flying together in 1977 the squadron chappie called Goodliffe formed the squadron association and from then on we found all eight of my crew and all eight of us used to meet every year.
CB: Fantastic.
RW: Until 1990 when we all met at Ludford in 1990 and the Coningsby, the Battle of Britain Flight said, ‘Would you come down and do a little exercise down here with a full crew.’ And Tommy, my mid upper gunner, wouldn’t go so we never went and a couple of months later he died so whether he had some sort of premonition, you know.
CB: Extraordinary.
RW: But anyway nevertheless all 7 of used to meet until, and then the rear gunner dies and all eight of us, all six of us used to meet and a couple of years ago my special duty operator died so all five of us -
CB: All five.
RW: Are still round about and very, very different states of health and all creaking a bit. I was being very lucky. I had open heart surgery.
CB: Oh, did you really?
RW: It was only three years ago and got a zip fastener up the front but if it hadn’t have been for again like the services, like with family if it hadn’t have been for family and my mum looking after me with diphtheria when I was a little boy and my daughters and family looking after me afterwards when, when I had when I had the operation for the heart I couldn’t walk, I couldn’t sleep, couldn’t eat and my daughter Catherine who is, she is now the ward manager sister at the coronary care unit at Warwick Hospital she took me into hospital on her day off and did an ECG and a blood test and the cardiologist just happened to be walking past and he said, ‘What are you doing here?’ You know, and he took the blood away and came back and he said your bloods alright but it’s not, you’re not going anywhere. Don’t go home. So within just over a week I’d had open heart surgery.
CB: Gee.
RW: And I was back home again.
CB: Amazing.
RW: Yeah, it’s amazing.
CB: I’m going to stop you there.
RW: Yes, that’s about it I think, Ok.
CB: Because we both need a – [pause] right we’re restarting again after a brief comfort break and the bits I just want to ask you about, Rusty is first of all the ranking system. So you went in as an aircraftsman second class.
RW: I went in as an AC2.
CB: And how did the promotion system work until you were –
RW: Yeah. Well, usually after about six months you were promoted an AC1 and then after another short period of time you became an LAC, leading aircraftman. And I was a leading aircraftman when I went and did my flying in Canada and it was from then after you’d finished and completed your training successfully that was when you were ordered your flying brevvy and you became whatever grant, whatever grade you were going in to. Fortunately, and with a lot of luck involved I became a pilot. And having, became a sergeant pilot. Some, about three or four of the course that we were on we lost about forty percent of the course on washouts. You know, it was incredible because the training was very, very precise. I must say it was very, very good. Looking back it was remarkable. So there I was a sergeant pilot and promotion as an NCO was roughly six months and you got an increase and promotions so by the time I was, got on the squadron I was a sergeant pilot and then I very soon became a flight sergeant pilot and that was in ’43. End of ’43. And in early ‘44 the directive came from the air ministry that all captains of heavy bombers had to be commissioned so I was given the cheque for ninety quid by the accountant and told to go and buy a uniform so there was no formal interview at all. It was just a thing that happened. In consequence, the social class, in a sense, disappeared because there were people commissioned from training and they tended to be a little bit elitist and some of the crews had done previous tours and tended to be all commissioned and usually flight lieutenants and all this sort of thing so they were nearly all a little bit aloof but we were just the roughs. Not like the pathfinders. Gibson and the pathfinder force really didn’t socialise with the NCOs at all. Didn’t speak to them, didn’t talk to them but it wasn’t like that on the squadron. Really, apart from doing your job you were all the same. And the, the, our WingCo was a wonderful man in that respect. He knew everybody’s name on the squadron. Ground crew and air crew. Wonderful man. Old Alexander. Wingco Alexander.
CB: What sort of age was he?
RW: He, he’d be getting on about. He’d be early 30s I think [laughs] so. He died not such a long time ago. A little story about Wingco Alexander which, of course, a little bit about the war. His batman, Ward, a little chap called Ward turned out to be a homosexual and he was sacked from the service because in those days homosexuality was virtually a crime and he was sacked from the service and when I used to go home on leave and my brother was being in the army my mum was nursing a very eminent north country barrister called Lambert, Pop Lambert. Mum used to, got the job to nurse him because she could swear as much to him as he swore at her when she put him to bed and he used to love my, my brother and I and my mum to go down and have dinner with him and it was finger bowls and butlers and things like this so it really was quite out of our class altogether and when we were sitting down having dinner this night and the butler came in with the finger bowls and he looked at me and said, ‘Hello Waughman.’ And I said, ‘My God. Ward. What are you doing here? You were Alexander’s batman.’ And that went on, he went out and Pop said, ‘How the hell do you know him?’ And I said, ‘He was our WingCo’s batman. He was sacked because he was homosexual.’ And the poor soul. Pop gave him the sack a week later. He just wouldn’t have him around and this was the attitude about homosexuality -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
RW: In those days. The lads used to go out queer bashing. You know.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah. There was no gay business in those days at all, sort of thing. But that’s the sort of thing that happened. So, anyway, I was flying, became pilot officer and on the squadron I became towards the end of my tour I got promotion to flying officer and ended my tour as a flying officer and subsequently with the jobs I got as the training officer, again it was timed promotion really in a way. I became a flight lieutenant and most of the screening and examining and training I did then was as a flight lieutenant until I was posted to Singapore and never got there, flying as a VIP pilot AOC Far East. I never got there. Had I, had I gone I would have been promoted to squadron leader. No. I would have got the rank of squadron leader. Which would be temporary acting unpaid. So when I left that job I reverted to my previous rank again so that would be a rank mainly because you were socialising with VIPs but that never came about. So whether I don’t think I would have advanced very far in the air force at that time because I was a Geordie like, you know from up north, a very uneducated man, and I don’t think I would have advanced too far in the service.
CB: Ok.
RW: Although I got on very, very well with the people.
CB: Yeah.
RW: It was great but I think the social side, the social class system would have meant that I’d perhaps have made wing commander but I don’t think I would have got any great senior rank. Again, partly that’s my thought. Whether it would have happened or not. My navigator, he was an educated lad and very good lad you see he lied about his age to join up, operational at eighteen. He stayed in the air force after the war, did very, very well indeed did all sorts of very important flying. He ended up as a squadron leader and stayed in the air force after the war and he was very well thought of in the service. Most of the other lads left the service. Except Taffy. He stayed in the service. He became, he stayed as a sergeant I think all his life and I think he drank his way through the service but er -
CB: And he was always on the ground.
RW: Always on the ground, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes he did, he did fly a second tour. Some of the crews did second tours. He was on the second tour and he was on the last bombing raid that went to the Nuremberg and the Buchenwald raids. And Manna, Operation Manna. Norman, my bomb aimer, he stayed in the air force. He stayed although he had some elevating jobs he never rose above the rank of flight lieutenant because he was out in Burma and he was on the squadron in Burma. This was very shortly after the end of the war and the war was still going on in Burma and he was duty officer one weekend and the Scotch troop was getting knocked about in the jungle so he laid on a strike which was successful and got back. I think they only lost a couple of blokes which was really remarkable. Got everything back and he had to see the CO the next day who said, ‘You don’t, you didn’t have the authority to lay that on’ and he was court martialled and in the, in the court martialling that was it you know but he went on and he eventually when he got back to the UK, got sent back to the UK and he didn’t have a job and he had a friend who knew somebody who knew somebody and he went to work down at, down in Halfpenny Green down Pershore way working on TSR2 and he did some work on TSR2 and then did an awful lot of flying in Buccaneers, err Buccaneers um Canberra’s flying all over America doing line over mapping and this sort of thing. Got himself an MBE. So Norman who now lives in the tax haven Andorra is MBE DFC AFC, yeah. But lovely guy.
CB: Ok so that’s a good intro thank you -
RW: Yeah.
CB: To the awards.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So how did that come about for you and for him as well? How many of the crew were decorated?
RW: Well the sad thing is I’ve still got it but thinking about the decorations for crews and that sort of thing I’ve still got a got a bit of a conscience about the DFC because at the end of the tour of operations nearly every skipper got a decoration and I got a DFC but the crew didn’t get anything and the crew were doing half the work. They kept me alive, they kept us all alive they were doing exactly the same job as I was doing, under the same circumstances. Same risks. The same with all the Bomber Command crew but none of them got a decoration. My engineer Curly did eventually get a DFM.
CB: On the second tour -
RW: But none of the -
CB: Was it?
RW: None of the crew got any recognition whatsoever I think what Harry did was the rear turret and think what rear gunners did sitting watching shells flying at you having a little 303 gun to fire back at a 20 millimetre shell you know um and the casualty rate for rear gunners was, really was something and there was a lot of decorations which should have been. We had one crew which were very, very badly knocked about and from what I gather afterwards the station commander recommended the skipper for a VC which, and the crew did all sorts of wonderful things the skipper was hit three times and all sorts of things went wrong and got the aircraft back but this was turned down and we gather that the reason was that he wasn’t just getting the crew and the aircraft back he was getting himself back as well. So five of the crew got CGMs that night so the decorations system I’m sure it’s the same in all the wars that a lot of people who deserved them didn’t get them because it was unknown. One, one situation whereby unless an action was seen by an officer it didn’t count.
CB: Right.
RW: So -
CB: So the Queens Gallantry Medal.
RW: Yeah.
CB: The CGM.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Was a pretty good award.
RW: Well it’s the next one down from the VC.
CB: Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. The whole crew got it.
RW: Yeah. Yeah. Five of the crew got it.
CB: Yeah.
RW: So you know the awards system obviously they have to have some rules and regulations, you know. I was told by, the by people afterwards after my crash landing getting the aircraft back the thought was the immediate award of the DFC but that didn’t come about.
CB: So when did it happen?
RW: That was in May, March
CB: When you came to the end of your tour.
RW: Oh, it was the end of the tour.
CB: Was it?
RW: Not at the time. Not immediately at the time. It wasn’t until anyway there we are. My DFC was given to me by the postman and there’s a nice little letter in there from King George saying I’m sorry, implying that he’s too busy too busy to see I’m sending it through the post but thank you very much. So, so that was given to me by the postman.
CB: Extraordinary.
RW: Subsequently, when I got I was very fortunate after the war I was awarded the MBE and -
CB: But you got the AFC. So what was that -
RW: I got the AFC.
CB: So what -
RW: I didn’t get the MBE I got the AFC.
CB: The AFC, yes.
RW: Yes, the AFC.
CB: So what was the circumstance of that?
RW: I’ve no idea. I’ve tried to find out but the only thing I’ve ever, people have been able to say meritorious service but I’ve no idea why. I think it was a brown nose job really you know, being in the right place at the right time. I can just imagine from what I’ve seen afterwards the air ministry would be issued so many medals to be issued to the command. Got down to group. Group allocated the medals out. Group was passed out to stations, stations allocated medals out, passed down to the squadrons and what was left for the squadron they had to find someone to give them to and I think I just happened to be at the right place at the right time. So, no reason why I -
CB: No specific event that you can -
RW: No specific event. Nothing -
CB: No.
RW: At all. No. So, it was again poor luck.
CB: What about this other man you talked about who’d been in your crew before who got DFC, AFC?
RW: Oh, Norman. The bomb aimer.
CB: Yes how did he get those?
RW: Well.
CB: Did he get the DFC at the end of the tour?
RW: Afterwards he, he -
CB: Was he commissioned by then?
RW: He eventually ended up on pathfinders.
CB: Oh right.
RW: Yeah, he did a second tour.
CB: Ahh.
RW: Didn’t do a full second tour but he did a lot of second tour on pathfinders and he got his DFC for that and he got his AFC for what he was doing in research down at Pershore down there and his MBE was for the work he did on TSR2 and the, and the work he was doing with the, with the Canberras.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah and Curly my engineer he eventually got the DFM just after -
CB: On his second tour.
RW: After he left us he got the DFM and he from a very lowly back, we’re all from very lowly backgrounds, working class backgrounds his son Paul was at grammar school and there was a thing, a big trip they were going to do, which he could do which would have affected his career quite considerably from the school and Curly couldn’t afford it so he sold his medal.
CB: Right.
RW: To pay for his son to go through school. His son ended up as a very eminent statistician broadcasting, writing articles, touring the world doing this sort of thing and he still brings Curly to the reunions.
CB: Oh does he? So he feels that’s good value.
RW: Yeah. Yes, Yeah but poor old Curly he missed his medal a lot and a chappie called [?] it’s in there he bought Curlys medal.
CB: Oh.
RW: And there you are. He bought Curly’s medal. He was a medal collector and he also involved with [?] he’s a Frenchman working, working with the [6th airborne div] on the invasion things and he bought Curly’s medal and through the squadron he found out that Curly was on the squadron cause he got in touch trying to find out who’s it was and he invited Curly over for several years, every year to get his medal. Well the first year well he couldn’t get his medals back, well he didn’t, he was allowed to wear it but he very kindly let him wear his medal and showed him where his medal was and that’s the sort of thing, the sort of the lads they were. But -
CB: Can I go back to a particular experience -
RW: Yes.
CB: You describe -
RW: Yes, certainly.
CB: And that was the collision.
RW: Yes.
CB: So you’re on top of another Lancaster.
RW: Yeah. Yes.
CB: What happened to that aircraft?
RW: Well I didn’t see it at all. ‘Cause I was -
CB: No.
RW: A little busy keeping flying but apparently his propellers, as I said, chopped through our, just behind the bomb aimer’s feet and the bombing compartment up front. His mid upper, his canopy over the cockpit carved through our wheels and tore the canopy off.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And his mid upper gunner, his mid-upper turret was torn off as well and the boys said they saw Taffy who was looking out of his little window saw the aircraft falling away with the canopy falling off and the aircraft falling to bits so you can’t imagine what happened to the crew in the cockpit and the mid upper gunner sitting on top of the aircraft and they saw the aircraft falling away with no parachutes coming out. Of course it disappeared in cloud.
CB: Ah.
RW: And we were two thousand feet and then they saw the explosion on the ground.
CB: Oh.
RW: They found out afterwards that it was another Lancaster.
CB: Right.
RW: And they were able to identify what Lancaster it was and they were all killed of course. Unfortunately. How lucky can you be?
CB: Yeah and none of your boys saw it coming because you hadn’t got any view of it of underneath.
RW: No. Well the engineer was standing at his little window on the starboard side said he just saw it as it appeared and he didn’t see it at all.
CB: So you were flying straight and level.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And this came up from underneath you.
RW: Yeah. Hit sort of sideways.
CB: Oh sideways.
RW: Sideways underneath.
CB: Which is why you can’t -
RW: Yeah and that’s why he cut across us and we sat on top of him. And that was, and you never thought about it you never thought about disaster at the time you were thinking preservation.
CB: No.
RW: And keeping the aircraft flying. We’ve got to fly. Yeah. Which fortunately it did.
CB: And a different question each of the crew has a different recollection of what was going on because they had different jobs.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You’ve already mentioned the danger of being the rear gunner.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How many times did your gunners shoot at other aircraft? Attacking aircraft in other words.
RW: In a way not as many as the attacks that we had because the idea was you didn’t use your guns unless you had to because it gave away your position so about what a half a dozen times, perhaps.
CB: Yeah.
RW: On one occasion we in the going over Germany we had [five] fighter attacks almost one after the other and if it hadn’t been for the diligence of the gunners we wouldn’t have escaped out of it, you know.
CB: You did corkscrews to get away from it.
RW: Corkscrewed out of it. And once you’ve started corkscrewing it’s no good, no point flying firing your guns.
CB: No.
RW: What did happen I was very fortunate I flew in both the, two of the aircraft who did the, the ton up aircraft who did over a hundred operations. One was in H How which was one of our squadron aircraft and the reason why I flew it was because our squadron was allocated the first two Rolls Royce turrets with the 2.5 guns in the back instead of the four 303s mainly we were the first one of the earliest ones to get it because of the attrition rate on the squadron we were given this the 2.5 and we were, WingCo asked us, well he didn’t ask us he told us to go on this operation and get into a position where the special duty operator could attract the fighter to us.
CB: Right.
RW: So we could try the guns out so we’re stooging along and there we are and Harry called up, he said, ‘Attack starboard quarter coming up.’ So we waited there and he got, when he got in the position where he pressed the guns, pressed the tits to fire the gun it didn’t operate. It didn’t go and we saw sparks flying past but fortunately there were lots of contrails around about so we nipped into the contrails and got rid, got corkscrewing and got rid of the fighter but when we got back the old boss was a bit concerned.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And he said, ‘We’ve got to have to find out what’s going on here,’ he said. And they discovered that they’d changed the anti-freeze grease on the guns and because of that we were told to go out the next night and try them out the next night. Which we did and unfortunately there were ten tenths cloud all over the place but we fired the guns and they worked alright. So that we flew and that was one of the reasons why we had the .5 guns. Because of the attrition rate on the squadron.
CB: Were they also on the mid upper?
RW: No. No, just the 2.5s in the mid upper gunner.
CB: Yeah.
RW: But again you don’t hear much about the mid upper gunners.
CB: No.
RW: But they were just as vulnerable as the others really. They were attacked from behind.
CB: They were an important lookout.
RW: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We were so lucky the diligence of my crew and we were good pals. It wasn’t the skipper sitting up front dictating things. They were telling you what to do.
CB: Yeah.
RW: You had to make the final decision obviously but you were just a crew.
CB: What was the, what was the signaller doing?
RW: [laughs] As little as possible [laughs] he was a wonderful character, very mischievous and he always swore he was going to come on operations drunk and towards one of our last operations we were in the crew room and we were talking and he crept up behind me and patted me on the shoulder [drunken talk imitation] and I turned around. He disappeared and I turned around and I said, ‘You bugger.’ And he’d left a couple of WAAFs standing behind me. [laughs] This is the sort of character he was.
CB: This is an eighteen year old lad was he?
RW: Nineteen.
CB: Nineteen.
RW: He was nineteen. No. He was twenty.
CB: Oh was he?
RW: Around then yeah and this was the sort of character he was and he used to get bearings when nobody else could and he when the skipper wanted a bearing, a particular bearing, he’d get one and there’s an emergency frequency which you had to keep off and he used to get right on the edge of this frequency and pick up bearings that you weren’t supposed to have.
CB: So in practical terms.
RW: Yes.
CB: He was giving bearings all the time.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Was he?
RW: Yeah and again very different from, very different from the navigator and mischievous little devil and I always remember one of the occasions which we remember very vividly was at Waddington after the war when we had our squadron reunion and we’d all had quite a lot to drink and we were getting back into our taxi and we were going to drop him off at his pub, the Wheatsheaf in Lincoln and on the way back he was relating in his very drunken manner how Norman, my bomb aimer lost his virginity to Luscious Lill in Grimsby and there was a policeman walking past the car and wanted to know why. This was the sort of character he was. He drank like a fish and on one occasion we went into Louth to have drink and they used to run a crew bus to run us into Louth and pick us up at half past eleven when the pubs closed and we were coming back and Taffy disappeared. He didn’t know where it was until we had a call from the police station saying we have a wireless operator from your station. A chap called Arndale. He’s in prison. And what he did, he had a skinful, gone down a lane to have a wee and there just happened to be a policeman there and half wee’d on the policeman so they took him in. We were on operations that, had to be on operations that night so I had to into Louth and pay ten shillings to bail him out from the police station to get him back. This was the sort of, wonderful characters and we used to go down the pub and drink enormously playing Moriarty and again, it was a form of relaxation.
CB: Yes sure.
RW: Getting rid of stress.
CB: Just a couple of things about the flying, excuse me.
RW: Yes that’s -
CB: What were you doing when you weren’t on operations?
RW: Well occasionally you did an air test. And perhaps did a little bit fighter affiliation practice being attacked by a fighter but generally your, you were completely relaxed to do whatever you wanted. There was no, no station duties whatsoever. You’d perhaps go up to flight and see what was going on with the others. Down the pub.
CB: But were you doing bombing practice in The Wash?
RW: Yes, there were -
CB: Were you doing circuits and bumps?
RW: I think, I think it was a place called Wainfleet.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Somewhere about The Wash where we used to do practice bombing little eleven and half pound practice bombs you know, practice bombs. Used to drop those.
CB: What height would you be flying when you dropped those?
RW: Oh about eight, ten thousand feet. You weren’t flying at twenty odd thousand feet.
CB: No.
RW: In those days and yes we used to do little air tests and things.
CB: Cross countries?
RW: Pardon?
CB: Cross country for navigation practice.
RW: Err not so much. You did those when you first got on the squadron and you, when you got the feel of the squadron you did a couple of cross countries then but after that no we didn’t have to do any cross countries at all and your relaxation was really resting and down the boozer, down the pub and I used to get into trouble. When we used to live in a nissen hut, little corrugated iron nissen hut and when the condensation, used to get the condensation inside used to run down the ridges and in the winter used to form icicles.
CB: Cause there’s no insulation.
RW: Yeah. No.
CB: No insulation.
RW: No insulation. No.
CB: No.
RW: And all we had was a pot stove in the middle of the room a little cylindrical pot stove which we used to go and try and rob people of their ration of fuel and burn furniture and all sorts of silly things and of course there were no ablutions or watering inside. The ablutions were outside in another hut with a concrete bench with taps on and that was all you had. It wasn’t a, Wimpy built the station in eighty days completely and there were a main roads. There was a main road into the station, a main road with flights, a perimeter track and a runway and that’s about it. And all the rest we were walking around on grass and mud as a matter of fact being called Ludford Magna they nicknamed the place as Mudford which is a -
CB: It was that bad was it?
RW: It was that bad.
CB: Right.
RW: But it was, basically apart from the stress of what was going on it was a happy station and this was reflected on the senior staff. The group captain and the WingCos in that place.
CB: But with the high attrition rate -
RW: Yeah.
CB: How, the senior officers would get shot down as well.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So how did the replacements work? Would it be somebody from the squadron already or would they post in a squadron leader or wing commander?
RW: I think it depended on who was available. Perhaps one of the flight commanders would be promoted or could be promoted and our flight commander, Squadron Leader Robinson he was a fortnight before he was a flight lieutenant but the flight commander was killed and with rapid promotion he is made squadron leader. So he became a squadron leader and it has happened that when a station commander who’d gone on operations, well WingCo Alexander a wonderful man, he used to come and take on a crew that had just arrive on the squadron. Take them on operations. So if there were lost they’d perhaps try and promote somebody on the squadron, from the flight to become station commander or bring somebody in with experience.
CB: Squadron commander you mean.
RW: Yes, squadron leader.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Bring in one of the senior officers to take over the station which didn’t happen on our lot. I know it did, it has happened but then rapid promotion for whoever is on the flight.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Which Robinson was. He became from the -
CB: Yeah. So -
RW: Yeah so this rapid promotion business was well deserved but Robinson became the, the flight commander when he was twenty five, twenty six. Yeah. Well, look at Gibson. He was twenty six, he was a group captain and the group -
CB: Yeah.
RW: Group captain in the service, yeah.
CB: Well did sometimes the station commanders fly on raids?
RW: Not the station commander. I know some of them did. Ours didn’t. Old Group Captain King. As far as we know he didn’t because we didn’t know everything that was going on but the Wing Commander Alexander who was in charge of all the flying as I say a new crew would come on the squadron and he’d take that squadron, take that crew that night. Normally, he did a second dicky trip which was an experienced to get experience on flying but when we started at the end, end of of ‘43 started the Battle of Berlin when the operations were called Gomorrah which was maximum effort err old Squadron Leader Robinson flight commander called me in and said. ‘Right you’re flying tonight.’ I didn’t get a second dicky trip but thinking of that sort of thing we used to have jinx. People in the squadron. Used to have WAAFs, you know, somebody little transport driver if they’d been out with this particular WAAF nearly everybody who’d been out with her got killed so she became a jinx, you know.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RW: And we became a jinxed crew.
CB: Yeah.
RW: We took three different pilots on experience operations and all of them were killed.
CB: Were they?
RW: So they wouldn’t send any more people with us.
CB: No.
RW: Yes. Which is remarkable. So these jinx things did happen.
CB: How many hours did you fly in your thirty by the time you’d finished your tour of thirty ops?
RW: Something like a hundred and eighty three. Something like that.
CB: On, on ops.
RW: On ops.
CB: Ok.
RW: Do you want to see my logbook?
CB: I do. Please.
RW: Yes. When –
CB: We’ll do that in a minute but overall how many by the time you left the RAF how many hours had you flown?
RW: Oh that’s getting on a bit. I did something like two and half thousand hours.
CB: Did you really?
RW: Which, when you compare people flying now are talking about thousands of hours. Thirty, forty, fifty thousand hours. No, two and a half thousand hours I ended up with which was quite a long bit for, for the -
CB: When the Canadian Lancaster came over last year -
RW: Yeah.
CB: The senior pilot there, he’s on airlines, had done twenty seven thousand five hundred -
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Hours.
RW: Yeah. Amazing, yeah.
CB: I’m going to stop there for a moment. Thank you.
[Pause]
CB: Right we’re starting again.
RW: Right from the beginning.
CB: And what I’d like to do is to ask Rusty just to talk about the time from his birth really to a point at West Kirby.
RW: Yeah thank you. Gosh. That’s, well at ninety two it’s a long story. No, it’s not really but I was very fortunate in my bringing up. I was born in a place called Shotley Bridge in County Durham and my dad worked as a handyman on a colliery owner’s estate and there I don’t know whether it was because of the situation or what was going on we lived in a tied cottage and I got diphtheria. I was, I had mucous diphtheria quite a chronic illness in those days and my mum who’d been a nurse in a military hospital nursed me at home with that and mum and dad had quite different careers. My dad was in the navy. He was orphaned as a boy, a two year old boy and brought up by an elder sister who when he got a bit older didn’t want them so he was put in the navy in 1905 as a boy entry and he went through and became a naval diver. And my mum who was a nurse in the, a sister, a matron, assistant matron at a military hospital in Darlington. Went through the war and got herself a Royal Red Cross, Associated Red Cross which was one down from the nursing VC which was a considerable award. She was a wonderful lady. And dad with his naval experience on the Q ships got himself a DFM and he is a leading seaman which was rather unusual in those days ‘cause not very many lower rank NCOs, he wasn’t even an NCO, got a decoration. He got a DFM.
CB: A DSM.
RW: Yes a DSM. DSM, yes.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Distinguished Service Medal and he, having been orphaned, he didn’t have a home to go to and my uncle Stanley was in the navy as well and he brought dad home on leave up north to Newcastle and there he met my mum and my auntie and he married my mum which is, which is lovely but because of his health he couldn’t do any really serious work and he used to do handyman work on the colliery owner’s estate and eventually when he moved in to Newcastle he used to do shift work looking after the stable and the horses for the Coop and in those day they had something like four hundred and sixty horses in the stables. And the nostalgic smell of all that leather was, when I used to go to night schools to try and get some education his stables were just a bit up the road and I used to go and meet him at, class would finish at 9 o’clock, the stables used to finish at half nine. I used to go and meet him at the stables and have a cup of tea by the big stove in the kit room. Smelled wonderfully. Wonderful. And then we had to walk home two and a half miles. No question of buses. Walk home. And dad was, really was a very quiet, unassuming man. Mum was a nurse all her life stayed nursing as her career all her life and she really saved my life on more than one occasion. Nursing me at home with diphtheria and typhoid and then the consequence because we, because we lived in, had no inside toilet, it was only a cold tap and no electricity, gas, paraffin lamps. We had communal toilets outside on The Green at the back I obviously picked up the typhoid from there so my mum went out and set them on fire and burned them down. So there we are. I came back to Newcastle and lived in the city for a wee while and then as a young teenager then I got TB, I had a TB [?] and that kept me down very much so and I was in a wheelchair when I was twelve so my mum nursed me at home with the TB and in consequence my health suffered to the extent that I wasn’t allowed to play sport, I wasn’t allowed to go swimming, couldn’t do all the exercises that my brother used to do and because of the family teeth which weren’t very good and because of the medication I was taking my teeth were in a very poor state so I had all my teeth out when I was sixteen and in those days they didn’t put teeth straight back in away again they waited until your gums got hard and then they put some china teeth in in those days. China porcelain things and that ruined my early love life that did. Mind you I didn’t know what girls were anyway. As far as I was concerned they were the ones that danced backwards, you know, so my upbringing in that respect was very, very sheltered. In consequence I started to go to school when I was about four and a half in Newcastle on the City Road but soon becoming ill I had to stop school and when I did go back to school I was just, just under eleven when you took the scholarship exam at twelve and of course I didn’t pass the scholarship and I didn’t, my brother went to a grammar school. I couldn’t go to a grammar school. I went to a school where you learnt ship working and work on the, work with the prospect of going perhaps in to the drawing offices of the shipyard. All the local stuff. But there again I wasn’t allowed to join the scouts or play sports and yet and yet my dad used to love watching football and we used to go to Newcastle United and watch the football there from an early age, from about eight, so I got quite a bit of fondness for Newcastle United. So, there we are I was a very sickly child with very little education and of course in those days to join the services at the age of eighteen you were called up and you were directed into any of the services that they needed. Even go down the mines and become a Bevan boy which I didn’t relish so I told mum and dad my friend he was going to join up at seventeen and have some sort of choice of services you went into and dad having been in the navy I said to mum and dad I said, ‘I’m going to volunteer and I’m going to join the navy. Volunteer to join the navy’ And they said, ‘Yeah. With your health record you’ll never get in.’ So off I went down to the recruiting centre which was a school and in the navy classroom there was the navy recruiting officer and my own doctor, Doctor Wright and I thought. ‘If I go in there I’ll never get in.’ So, I went next door and joined the air force. And really they were very hard up. This poor chap with no teeth and a heart murmur and varicose veins and covered in psoriasis and I think the air force must have been very, very hard up and much to my amazement after going to West Kirby to sign on where you were attested and signed on and joined the air force at seventeen. And poor old mum wept buckets her poor little lad, her poor little innocent lad going to play soldiers um and of course from then you had to go down to London to ACRC, St Johns Wood to be attestation and see what air crew you were going to be. When you were first signed up and joined up I was told I could train as air crew which was amazing ‘cause, in view of my health. Anyway after being signed on and got the kings shilling, not that I got a shilling but had to swear on the bible down to ACRC where you had attestation where you had medicals and exams. The medicals we used to have were in the Lords Cricket Ground and used to line up just with your underpants on and arms akimbo with your hands on your hips and they were at the side with the hypodermic syringe and pumping this stuff into you and the doc used to come and do what they called an FFI, free from infection, whereby you walked down the front, dropped your trousers and they used to go down and examine you with a little stick and the back, they went around the back, they went around the back and said bend over and made me wonder what on earth was going to happen but there you are if anyone collapsed when you were there or fainted there they just produced all the work on the ground. They just gave the injections on the ground. So we being, being at the Lords Cricket Ground you know and of course the result of that, much to my amazement, I was told I could train as a pilot because when you first went there you were trained as aircrew UT aircrew with a little white flash in your cap to show you were aircrew, trainee aircrew. So there we are I was told I could train as a pilot. And of course from there you had to start learning about the air force so I was posted to Newquay down in Cornwall at the ITW Initial Training Wing where you learned about the air force, square bashing, how to salute and all these sort of things. The admin side of the air force. So having completed that we were posted to, I was posted to South Africa and issued with the tropical kit and off to East Kirby, West, West Kirby at Manchester er at Liverpool to catch the boat to go out to South Africa. And in the billets there when the time came all the people left except eleven of us who were left in the room all Ws. All Walls, Walkers all the Ws left behind and we were left there and the camp disappeared. They took all the men off the camp, all the operating men off the camp and there were just the eleven, we lived off the NAAFI for a week and not knowing what on earth was going on until the next posting that came in and they were all WAAFs. All the WAAFs came in and seeing eleven blokes in their billet you know wondering what on earth was going on. So did we. Then the WAAF officer said, you know, ‘What are you doing?’ Well. ‘We were posted to South Africa and we didn’t go.’ Ah draft dodging. So we were posted down to the B course at Brighton. The bad boys course at Brighton because of the because we were accused of draft dodging and down there we were up very early in the morning and booking in at half past eight at night which we didn’t take very much enjoyment out of this sort of thing and the parades were very, very strict and doubling and running everywhere and we complained to the orderly officer one day at a mealtime telling him, you know we shouldn’t be here. We haven’t done anything wrong and he didn’t believe it and he said, ‘Oh you carry on.’ So the eleven of us, we wrote a letter and we all signed it and sent it to the station commander who had us in his office and he said. ‘This constitutes mutiny,’ which is a court martial offence and when we’d explained to him what had happened he did a bit of an investigation, he said, ‘Oh that’s alright he said, ‘Alright just book in in the morning and come in at night time.’ So we had a few days, four or five day holidaying in Brighton just walking about and spending all our time in [Sherry’s] Bar I think it was and of course then we had to start again. And when we were posted we were posted to another ITW at Stratford on Avon but all our kit and all our records had been sent out to South Africa so nobody knew anything about us so we had to start again so we did all our ITW again at Stratford on Avon and that was very pleasant. We took over most of the hotels for lectures and bedding and I can say I was on the stage in Stratford on Avon which is quite a, quite a thrill mainly as we used the theatre as aircraft recognition. We had to go on stage to point out aeroplanes but that was quite an experience and of course having completed the course successfully there you had to go and prove that we could fly and go overseas so we were posted to a place called Codsall, just north of Wolverhampton where there was a civilian aerodrome where we were, had to go flying Tiger Moths and once we’d gone solo that was it, forgot about aeroplanes. Some of the poor souls couldn’t go solo and they were re-posted. So, fortunately, I managed it and on the Empire Training Scheme where they used to send trainees to South Africa, some to Australia even, some to Arnold Scheme in America. I was posted to Canada on the Empire Training Scheme and this was at a place called Dewinton which is just south of Calgary.
CB: So this is, what date are we talking about here?
RW: This, this was in early ’42.
CB: Right.
RW: Early ’42.
CB: Can I just go back to what you said earlier?
RW: Yeah.
CB: You were selected for aircrew.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But you must have gone through some kind of process that suggested you were suitable for aircrew rather than -
RW: Yeah.
CB: A ground crew job.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was that?
RW: Yes. When you were first signed on, volunteered as air crew, when you went to Padgate to be officially sworn in to the service you did some testing there. You did some examinations there and with, fortunately with my experience as a pupil surveyor doing vectors and things on the ground is a similar sort of thing they did in the air with wind resistance and this sort of thing and that helped me enormously to pass the ground exams and having done that minor exams there you were then told you could train as UT aircrew.
CB: Right.
RW: Becoming UT aircrew PNB.
CB: Yeah.
RW: If you couldn’t succeed as a pilot you could perhaps become a navigator or a bomb aimer PNB.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And I was fortunate to say I could train as a pilot. So we -
CB: Just, just to put that into context. Earlier you talked about your experience of then getting to leave school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did you get in to bring the surveyor?
RW: Ah the well I -
CB: Which was the basis for your selection.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: For aircrew.
RW: I had, the school I went to was a training establishment more than a school. Learning about draughtsmanship and this sort of thing -
CB: Yeah.
RW: To go on the shipyards and you had to leave there when you were fifteen, sixteen. So I left school, no idea of what sort of job I could get whatsoever. So my brother who was, he was a grammar school boy and very highly educated, a very clever lad, he used to work in his spare time at the Newcastle repertory theatre and this Christmas they were putting on a play called “The Circus Girl” and they were short of somebody to take the part of the monkey in the play and my brother said I’ve got a brother who is doing nothing maybe he’d be it so I became a monkey in the Christmas pantomime at the Newcastle rep which was great fun. The devils, they wore a uniform, skin monkey skin with not much else really. The devils used to put itching powder inside that actually. Not very nice. And of course then when the pantomime was finished they said, ‘What are you doing now?’ and I said, ‘Well, I don’t know. I’ve got to look for a job.’ They said, ‘Would you like to stop on?’ So I stayed on the Newcastle rep for nearly a year as an assistant assistant assistant stage manager and with the girls doing quick changes at the side of the theatre you learned an awful lot about life but my aunt who had a very good friend who was, worked, had another friend who owned and ran an architect’s surveyors office said would I like to go and work for them. So I went and worked at the architect surveyor’s office and became a pupil surveyor. I was doing the exams for the Institute of Surveying, ISF, and I passed their preliminary exams but they didn’t count because I didn’t have a matriculation or school cert so I was going to night school four nights a week learning about mathematics and history and I wasn’t getting on terribly well. I don’t think I would have ever qualified completely but very fortunately the war came along and having volunteered to join up I left surveying and became, and joined the air force.
CB: So that’s how you effectively qualified for being air crew.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Yeah.
RW: So the fact that I qualified for air crew, the fact that, not so much my health record although the medicals I had were very comprehensive medicals the fact that the mathematics I was doing for the surveying helped me enormously with the navigation exercises we were doing in the thing so that, I think, helped towards the fact that I was allowed to train as air crew apart from the fact that they must have been very short of aircrew and they wanted somebody [to fill the boots]. Yeah, so -
CB: Just a quick question about your initial training.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How many hours did you fly before you went solo?
RW: When we first went solo at Codsall in Wolverhampton it was about eight or ten.
CB: Right.
RW: Something like that. When we got out to Canada you really had to start again and you were doing sort of fifteen, twenty hours before you really were allowed to go solo.
CB: So I’m just interrupting now because this goes into the early part of the interview because it got missed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWaughmanR150803
PWaughmanR1501
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Rusty Waughman. Two
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:55:47 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-03
Description
An account of the resource
Russell (Rusty) Waughman was born in Shotley Bridge, County Durham. Due to serious poor health as a child his education was interrupted. He describes his training with the Empire Training School in Canada. He was posted to 101 Squadron which was a special squadron with the ABC system. He describes some of the unusual aspects of squadron life such as premonitions and the close connections between everyone on the station. He had many close calls including having to right the aircraft which was flying upside down due to being blown of course by a nearby explosion. On one occasion he managed to keep his Lancaster flying despite a collision with another aircraft. On another occasion the aircraft was again damaged during an attack on Munich. However, as they made their slow progress back they found themselves flying over France in daylight and were amazed to see from the distance two Spitfires which had been sent to escort them home. He also took part in the Berlin airlift.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Canada
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
101 Squadron
1662 HCU
82 OTU
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
C-47
control tower
coping mechanism
crewing up
dispersal
entertainment
faith
fear
FIDO
forced landing
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
heirloom
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Me 109
mid-air collision
military living conditions
military service conditions
nose art
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
perimeter track
pilot
promotion
RAF Abingdon
RAF Blyton
RAF Desborough
RAF hospital Matlock
RAF Ludford Magna
recruitment
sanitation
searchlight
Stearman
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/WhittleG.2.jpg
5db8e5ab7f504e33ee8fdd28593061a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/AWhittleG150626.2.mp3
101772ee338ddf0cb41c285d70c6cb1c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey
G G Whittle
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
2016-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whittle, G
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Gordon Whittle DFM (1923 – 2016, 1397166 Royal Air Force), as well as his log books, photographs and memoirs.
Geoffrey Whittle flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
There is a sub-collection of 25 Air Charts, mostly of Great Britain.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Field and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle, it’s the 26th of June and we are in Ruskington. So if you could tell me a little bit about your life and your experiences please?
GW: I was born in London, the outskirts of London, southern side and, I came from a family, printing background. My grandfather at one time had his own business; my father was in the national press. So I was destined with my brother to become printers as such, em. I was pulled away from school at the age of fourteen to take up an apprenticeship, which were not easily obtained unless you had an insight into the business. So I started off my career path as a trainee printer. The war came along, ‘39 and we were nicely placed when things hotted up in 1940 to be on the path to central London for the bombers. So at that time I was working in London, going in every day and was subjected to the bombing then my firm pulled out to one of its subsidiary operations in Hertfordshire in Letchworth. So I sort of missed that and I missed a further lot of the bombing. I used to get it or see it when I went home for the weekend or a little bit longer. Anyway coming up to the age of eighteen I felt that I was going to be called up. In the meantime my brother who was seven years older than me joined up immediately after the war started and was due to come home for commissioning selection on the day that Hitler started his push. That went by the board and he then became a prisoner of war at St Valerie. He was attached to the Fifty First Highland Division, that leads on to another story of my life. So I decided I was going to be called up, there was no way about it, but so ah, in 1941, so I had no desire to go into the army, no desire to go into the navy, so a sure fire way of getting into the air force and interesting of course, was to volunteer for aircrew duties. So I duly went off in October ‘41 for selection process and I was invited, I think that is the right word to use. Invited at the time to consider training as an observer, this was a precursor to the special navigation, bomber, gunnery thing that took place before the four-engined bomber came in. I was eventually called up in March of 1942 and went through the sausage machine at Regent’s Park and three weeks, what do you call it now boot camp, I suppose at Brighton and then down to Paignton for OTU, for, ITS Paignton in the summer months, it was rather an idyllic time the weather was superb, swimming every day and we had taken over the various hotels and things on the front at Paignton that was just across the beach. Oh, incidentally we were told while we were at St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park that we would not be going overseas for training. That was a little disappointing though as one had thoughts of going to South Africa or Canada but it didn’t in fact materialise. With hindsight one can see why when they were building up the ‘43 force, ‘43 and they wanted more people to go through the machine. Anyway it was from Paignton we went to Eastbourne for elementary air navigation school where we were doing all the ground work. We were eventually moved out of Eastbourne because of the nights we spent standing around the streets when the air raid warning had taken, been given and we moved up to Bridgnorth, I was only at Bridgnorth for two or three weeks and from there I went to West Freugh in Scotland, south of Stranraer on the Mull of Galloway. We arrived there the end of October the beginning of November and we had the joys of Scottish winter, in the winter time at a place called Stranraer. I have no idea what it looks like now, but it was pretty grotty, to use such a word in 1942. We did our flying and I vividly recall we had a great passing out parade there were sixty on the course. Em, great passing out parade at about four o’clock in the afternoon on the 1st of March 1943 and that same night we entrained for various OTUs that we were going to, no leave, nothing like that. So overnight travel from Scotland down to 27 OTU which was at Lichfield where one crewed up pilot and wireless operator, I think that was really the three of us and converted onto the Wellington. That is where I was fortunate enough to be picked and it was absolutely true that one has read we were put into a room, all the various categories and out of that crews appeared. I had a chap he was an old man, I was then twenty, no nineteen he must have been all of thirty four. Bill Walker, he had a lot of experience he must have had three or four hundred hours of flying because when he finished his pilot’s training he went off as a staff pilot at an air gunner’s school, great chap, chartered surveyor and we crewed up and flew the Wellington. Converted onto that on various exercises and trips until we were eventually considered competent enough to move onto the Heavy Conversion Unit which 1656 at Lindholme.
DE: The crewing up procedure, who chose who?
GW: The pilot basically, he went round, would you like to fly? I don’t know what the attraction was other than we were both over six foot tall. It made some difference, anyway that’s how it worked.
DE: Did you feel more confident with a pilot who had got more hours and was older?
GW: I don’t think we even thought about it, it was just nice that you had it. He came along, would you like to fly with me and off we went. I think at nineteen we didn’t question life so much as nineteen year- old as youngsters do nowadays. That was the form and we were going through it. So we moved to Lindholme and converted onto the Lancaster and there we met up with the rest of the crew, the flight engineer, the two gunners, and, no the bomb aimer must have been at Lichfield as well, not sure, can’t remember.
DE: Was that a similar process to get the gunners and engineer?
GW: I think so, they happened, it was a long time ago, a long time ago. We just appeared and we converted onto the Lancaster and did some day flying and did some night flying and I think it was the 21st, 25th of July, no correction 25th of June 1943 we were posted to 101 Squadron. Then they had just moved to Ludford Magna from Holme on Spalding Moor and we arrived as I have said on the 25th of June from Lindholme where we did our first operation two nights later. That was a conversion to squadron life, It was a gardening trip, you know Lavashell, minelaying so one was into the thing. And then we carried on, did various trips. The next major trip was on Cologne and then we were in the very last wave. So one saw the fires burning over Cologne a long, long before we got there but it was good initiation. Then after that it was a variety of trips to the Ruhr, Berlin, Nuremberg, Peenemunde, things like that. I can talk more about [unclear] in a minute. Then on our fifteenth operation that was on Hanover, as we were getting close to the target we were first of all coned by a searchlight and within seconds hit by anti-aircraft fire and by a night fighter which was not funny [laugh]. The port inner engine caught fire, the distance reading compass in fuselage in the back, it took one of the night fighter bullets, we had holes in the aircraft and we also had a small fire in-house in the fuselage. Anyway the flight engineer put out the fire we did a steep dive to port, when I say put out, he feathered the engine and deep dive to port and that fortunately put the fire out in the engine and also shook off the night fighter. Then he went back and started trying to put the fire out in the fuselage with a few bullets going off around him because it was affecting the ammunition trays. We were warned to stand by to bail out, Bill pulled the aircraft up back to about fifteen thousand feet and dropped the bombs and proceeded on. The fire broke out again, the rear gunner had a little problem, the flight engineer and the mid upper gunner pulled him out. We were very restricted with navigation equipment, I lost all my stuff in the dive to port, it just slid off the table. I managed to save my computer, Dalton computer and a pair of compasses, a few pencils and that was it. Anyway we stood by to bail out and being good aircrew we had a little discussion and decided, let’s try to get home, and we did. According to the reports after at the first debriefing the weather was not all that good. We got back, diverted to Lindholme, landed did a ground loop [laugh] finished up somewhere in the nether regions of Lindholme. Scrambled out of the aircraft and had to wait to be picked up. The port wheel had been punctured that was the trouble as we hit the ground we went round.
DE: Obviously the port engine had been hit.
GE: The aircraft was a write off. Anyway that was on the 25th of September, 27th of September, the 27th, the 27th. Three weeks after that the pilot and the flight engineer both received Gallantry Medals, immediate awards. Two weeks after that the wireless operator and myself each received immediate awards of a Distinguished Flying Medal and the other guys, the bomb aimer who was an officer, got the DFC and the two gunners got DFMs so we were all decorated with the immediate awards. The interesting thing about that was that the beginning of November a little later in November I was gazetted as a pilot officer with effect from the 27th of September so in fact I flew as a sergeant but was a pilot officer as indeed was Bill Walker and, so we both received medals as opposed to the officer awards. The interesting thing on that of course was the recipient of the DFC received forty pounds gratuity which went immediately to the RAF Benevolent Fund. As a sergeant we received twenty pounds which we keep and twenty pounds went a long way [laugh]. Anyway that was that and that was a memorable day.
DE: You mentioned the rear gunner had a problem, what was that?
GE: Oxygen mainly and I think and obviously overcome by fumes with the stuff burning was going down into his turret and that probably affected him some, he was recovered they pulled him out and gave him some more oxygen and then he went back into his turret. The pilot lost his controls, they had been severed. So it was all in all an interesting evening but we got back. Anyway we did not do very much flying in October. We were due to go on leave and nothing happened anyway on the next trip that I mentioned earlier I perforated my eardrum in flight and I was whipped off to hospital. Whilst I was there unfortunately my crew were shot down on the third sortie without me near Liege in Belgium on their way to Stuttgart. By that time we had acquired an extra member of the crew, the ABC operator, and so they were shot down and the pilot, the wireless operator and the navigator who replaced me did get out em, the pilot and the wireless operator became prisoners of war and the navigator in fact got back to England. All three of them have since died so I am now the sole survivor of that original crew. And that is why for very good reasons I am so interested in this Bomber Memorial because the names of the crews will go up on the walls and I think that is something they deserve. The wireless operator had a young son he was six months when he was killed and I tied up with his son twenty odd years ago and I normally see him once a year and that is very interesting and I think he likes it as well, it is a connection to his youth and a father he really did not really know. On the trips the interesting ones, Peenemunde which was quite out of the ordinary, it was done on a full moon when of course we never flew. So to be called suddenly to ops in the middle of August or July, I will have to look up my facts, was quite surprising and then usually as a navigator we didn’t get a pre main briefing, nav briefing, when so often we [unclear] our routes and basic stuff, although it was the final stuff before the main briefing the final met forecast so we could produce our flight plan. And when we arrived in the crew room, who should be sitting at the top table, one Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris [laugh]. The briefing took place and there it was when the curtains went back and this red line right across the North Sea a straight route virtually to some obscure place on the northern coast of Germany. And the bombing was at six thousand feet which was unusual. So all of these sort of things were quite intriguing but nobody would tell why we were going there, and so Arthur Harris finished up by saying ‘well I can’t tell you about the target all I will tell you, that it is vital that it is knocked out and if you don’t knock it out tonight you will go back tomorrow night and the night after and the night after until you have knocked it out’. We had the master bomber technique, first time on the main course raid, I must admit he didn’t sound over encouraging the way the markers were going down, the bombs were going down. I did really think on the way back, it was an eight hour trip, something like that em, full moon, saw a couple of aircraft shot down, I was looking out the astrodome. I really thought we would be back the next night and I must admit it was a great relief to get up somewhere around eleven o’clock, twelve o’clock next day to find out the raid had been a success. Great relief, and of course it was a great success from the point of view of slowing down the flying bombs. The impact that would have had on D-Day, let alone the civilian population. But I did experience when I went home on leave the odd V1 and V2 [laugh] not funny especially the V2, you did not hear anything but the bang. The interesting thing about the master bomber technique, they trialled it two or three weeks beforehand with a small force of one hundred and fifty Lancs from 1 Group another hundred and fifty from 5 Group and we were split up onto three targets, Genoa, Milan and Turin. 1 Group had fifty on Turin, the 5 Group had fifty on Milan if I remember correctly and twenty five each went to Genoa. The time of attack was one o’clock, ‘oh one hundred’ on Sunday morning. We were doing quite well, it was a nice night to fly, saw the Alps for the first time in one’s life and I was three or four minutes ahead of my actual time for my ETA so I would do a traditional dog leg sixty degrees one way one hundred and eighty the other, that saved three minutes. Sixty, one twenty and then we were back on track. We arrived at the target, virtually 1 am and the interesting thing was, God bless the Italians that as we were approaching the target it was quite lit up with anti-aircraft fire. Guns going off everywhere, since the first bombs went down they completely stopped [laugh]. We had quite a free run, but it was a long flight back to there and back all over France but that was interesting. As I say we trialled the master bomber technique before it was actually first used. The Berlin trip, well I was asked to do it and on that particular occasion I flew with the squadron commander and, we arrived back about five o’clock in the morning, debriefed and went straight on leave that was our scheduled leave. So I arrived back in London that evening and went out, in civilian clothes. I always changed when I went home and went to our local pub. It was quite intriguing I had a chum there that I met up with who was in uniform, the barman said to him ‘were you over Berlin last night?’ ‘No but he was’, turning to me [laugh]. The barman almost dropped dead to see somebody in civilian clothes, but that was how life was. So what happened after that, I went to hospital, the crew were shot down, came out of hospital. I was grounded for six months and started doing a bit of some instructional work around various places in Lincolnshire. All wartime airfields no longer exist, doing a little bit of navigation and things like that. Then I got my flying category back to eight thousand feet and was sent off for reselection. I went to Eastchurch and I was there on D-Day. I was playing cricket on D-Day, officers versus sergeants watching all these aeroplanes going over wondering what the hell was going on, of course we had no idea. I, asked to go onto Mosquitoes but was told my height restriction would not allow it because the minimum height restriction was twelve thousand feet so I went to Air Sea Rescue, I went down to Cornwall and the aircraft we were flying was the Warwick which was the airborne lifeboat version of the Wellington really and we had a few Sea Otters as well. When the fun moved away from, that part of France, the Cherbourg area the light aircraft moved over to Kirkeville but we were still based in Cornwall. That went on for five or six months and then we were disbanded.
DE: So what did the work entail there, was it patrols?
GW: Standing by more than anything else, I never dropped a lifeboat in my life. We never had to for the main concentration was more to the east than we were. But I say, we were disbanded eventually. So it was back again into the sausage machine and, back for training, I went to [Millom?], did a bit of flying there, then went to Half Penny Green just outside Wolverhampton. And that was then I knew I was going to go into what they called the Tiger Force on Halifaxes and probably glider towing. Then the war finished.
DE: You were on Halifaxes and glider towing because you still had the height restriction?
GW: Yes, as I say I would have done but it never happened, say the war in Europe finished and two or three months of waiting and the war in Japan finished so that was it and like so many aircrew who were non-operational at the time we were invited, what would we like to do? I was still young I was twenty two at the time I thought why would I want to work in an office or that sort of lifestyle? So I opted for the RAF Regiment and I went into the RAF Regiment, went to Germany and trained on armoured cars. I did my basic training, footslogging around here at Belton where the RAF Regiment depot was at that time. I then moved down to Oxford, Boarshill where the armoured car school was and converted onto the Humber armoured car and all the tactics attached to it and then went to Germany as the two I/C of an armoured car squadron. That was interesting, as I say I was a flight lieutenant then and went off. Anyway I was still an apprentice and I was expected to go back to it.
DE: Onto the printing?
GW: Yes back to printing. So I had to take my demob which I did. Went back, decided it was not the life for me so I went round to the RAF Regiment people in London and said, ‘what are the chances of coming back?’ and they said ‘yes we’ll have you extended service commission for four years’. So without consulting my father I gave up my apprenticeship, I cancelled my indentures and rejoined into the RAF Regiment and whilst I was there did a spell at Upavon and then I went out. Yes I did some time at the depot and went out to Upavon and from there I went out to Aden and commanded 4001 Armoured Car Flight. The obvious the Humber car flight and it still exists today in the RAF as a unit. Whilst I was in Aden the wanted, sent out requests for volunteer pilots and navigators to rejoin as aircrew, go back to aircrew, volunteer for aircrew and I did volunteer for that and I did go back. So January 1950 I em, went back into flying duties, finished up in the all-weather world, and funnily enough by that time I got my full flying category back. So that was acceptable and I went into the all-weather world flying Mosquitoes then Meteors. In between times I did the odd ground tour. From the Mosquito I went out to Egypt [unclear]. The pilot I was em, due to join up with, I incidentally when I done my conversion into Mosquitoes I flew with the chap who was taking command of the newly-formed 219 Squadron and then he was going to fly with the nav Leader when got out there, and my chap never appeared so I became station navigation officer. Still did a bit of flying with them then converted to the Meteor and did a bit there. Came home, had a ground tour then went back to flying, went again into Germany as the nav leader of 85 Squadron flying the Meteor and then the Javelin. Whilst I was there my ear blew up again and I perforated it again. So that was the end of my flying. I went to take up my staff college qualifying exam. I then went to staff college in 1959 and whilst we were there were told quite happily by the air member for personnel that the majority of us did not have a full career left in the air force because they were all coming, the younger people were coming out from Cranwell and they had to have first preferences. That was a nice thing to hear, there were about seventy or eighty of us. One or two did get to the top obviously that will always happen. So I went to Fighter Command Headquarters on staff and em, and there I decided to retire, I then had two children and there was eleven years between them and I decided that I would get out and take early retirement. So I retired from the air force in December 1961. Having had such a hatred of working in an office what did I do? I went into banking [laugh]. I saw a friend of mine from air force days who went into it and seemed to enjoy it. It was industrial banking mainly not high street stuff, it was more flowing but it wasn’t my forte. I never objected to the year I spent at it. It made me realise that there was a difference from being an officer in the Royal Air Force with people telling you or you telling people what to do and the discipline attached to it, to mixing with the great British public. It was a very good leveller, I have never objected to that, yeah, although it wasn’t my forte. So whilst I was doing that I thought this is not my scene, let’s look around, see what’s coming up. I saw one or two things and eventually I saw an advert in the paper for management officials in NAAFI the Navy Army and Air Force Institute to train. There was an age limit of thirty I was then thirty five or thirty six so I thought let’s have a go at it and see what happens. My service career will offset the age difference, which it did. So I joined NAAFI as a trainee district manager and retired from it twenty six years later as a departmental manager. In between times I spent em, I finished my training rather quickly as I was sent out to Cyprus on the emergency when the Turks invaded northern Cyprus. Stayed there for four months then I went over to Libya went home then to Libya and I spent eighteen years overseas with NAAFI of my twenty six years with them. Climbing up the promotional tree, started off as a district manager then I became a senior district manager. Then I spent a year on the island of Gan and then onto Singapore from Singapore back of all places to Cyprus [laugh] and went there as a number two to Cyprus. Then back home for a short period and then I had London region, then I went to Singapore. I think I got the sequence right, anyway I went to Singapore twice. First of all, oh, from Gan I went to Singapore on special duties and I was a useful [unclear] for them as I knew the services a lot better than many others and I was doing a lot of liaison work and exercise planning and that sort of thing. Then I went back to Singapore a second time. That’s it from Singapore I had London, interesting working with the Brigade of Guards and all that sort of thing around London. And I then went back to Singapore running the Far East show as the command supervisor. From there I went to Germany as the number two for the whole of Germany and from there into London as a departmental manager. And I retired from there, I stayed on, they were going to retire me at sixty one which was the normal age but I said, I was not ready to go, I was very friendly with the em, I was very friendly with the MD and I stayed on until just before I was sixty five. That’s a long time ago.
DE: When was that?
GW: 1988. When I retired I spent a few months not doing a great deal except getting used to being retired and that sort of thing. We bought a new house in Hampshire, I already had a house in Aldershot which we sold and I bought another one just outside of Hindhead in Hampshire. I always had an interest in local politics but something I could never indulge in because of my in and out of the country all the time. Fortunately I got tied up with the local Conservative Party and became the secretary and things like that. In 1989, one of the two district councillors from my village had to pack up for business reasons. I said I would be quite happy to stand if it was for them, I did and I got elected and that was the next phase of my life. I carried on doing that up until the end of January 19 – no not 19, the end of January 2007 when we moved here, because my daughter and son had both moved to Ruskington. My daughter moved into the army and when her husband retired, a lieutenant colonel he was working in Scotland and then they eventually went back to the house in Hampshire. Decided they knew nobody but had friends here, one day approached us in ’89, ‘we are thinking of moving to Lincolnshire will you come?’ So what do you say? And we said we would, this is what happened. Then my son came up and spent some time with his sister and also bought a house in Ruskington, so we are all living in the village. And we came here in 2007, January 2007, I resigned from my role as district councillor in Hampshire and saw the local Conservatives here and said, ‘can I be of any use to you?’ That’s another story so I have now finished eight years as a district councillor in North Kesteven. And have started my next four years as I have been elected again. So I have had eight elections and got through all of them, and here I am. Really not for the tape I suppose this bit.
DE: Would you like me to pause it?
GW: If you can for a second.
[Recording paused]
DE: Okay so we are recording again. So earlier on you said you didn’t want to join the navy or the army but you wanted to join the RAF. Why not the navy or the army?
GW: I had no desire to live in slit trenches [laugh] I had a pretty good upbringing, you know life was very nice with my family and things. I didn’t really want to go and rough it in the trenches, perhaps I was too fastidious. The thought of going to sea for weeks on end and being perhaps seasick or anything like that I don’t know. I had no interest in them and perhaps I should go back and finish the story of my brother who was a captain, he was a prisoner of war, he contracted pulmonary TB whilst he was a prisoner of war and was due to be exchanged, in 1944, before the war finished. The first exchange they had of prisoners and he had a big haemorrhage and did not come home. But he came back in February 1945 and eh, he was in hospital and he came home he died, in September ‘46. So that was the saga. My brother was as big a chap as I was, an excellent swimmer and he just contracted the disease and I saw him waste away.
DE: Yes, a terrible killer.
GW: I think he attended my wedding, a picture, and that was it, two months later he was dead. So to answer your question there, I had no desire. Don’t forget there was a certain amount of glamour about flying in those days and aircrew were considered to be cuts above some of the others perhaps and nobody knew the scale of losses that Bomber Command suffered. I could never have guaranteed that I would have survived if I had gone on beyond my sixteenth trip, no way.
DE: You wanted to fly then?
GW: Oh yes I was keen on doing it and more so when I got into it, em, I enjoyed the navigation side, I really did.
DE: That was another question em, how did you end up being a navigator rather than any of the other trades?
GW: Well this was the selection process, we had to do one or two tests. I suppose my maths was a little bit better than other people, or what they were looking for at the time. After all the personnel people in London knew what was going to happen in the future and they were planning accordingly. Perhaps there was a shortage of navigators. Remember I started off as an observer and I had to wear the “O” badge and not the “N” badge because we had done a little bit of gunnery, a little bit of bombing, a little bit of photography. Just to get the feel of it, em, when one was flying in Scotland I remember flying past the Blackpool Tower and having to take a photograph and getting that settled and that sort of thing, so we dabbled in the whole lot. It was that before the four-engine bomber coming in, okay the Stirling came in, in ‘42 wasn’t it? The build-up of the Lancaster they compartmentalised, or whatever the word is, we more or less specialised in the particular role. So navigation being the big thing. The bomb aimer up the front dropped bombs, he was also the front gunner and that was it, we had to go through a selection process and took various tests, including a maths test. That was it I was invited to train as an observer, and then actually flew operationally as a navigator.
DE: I see, thank you. You went through in great detail of the times and places where your training was. What was the experience like, leaving home and joining the RAF and the training?
GW: Remember I had left home before and I was living in lodgings in Hertfordshire. So I did use the word remember after the three weeks at Regent’s Park we went and I called it boot camp. Brighton that knocked out any thoughts that you were important at all [laugh]. The drill instructors they were moronic [laugh] without a doubt. I lived in the Grand Hotel in Brighton. We used to parade on the front and of course the AOC of the Training Group 54, that was it 54 Training Group, I can’t remember, was Air Commodore Critchley the great greyhound man and racing man. Nearly all his officers were jockeys, little shorties. We used to parade and these characters would be wandering around making sure we were standing to attention [laugh] then we used to go on drill and the sergeants we had were absolute morons. Lived in the Grand Hotel with none of its splendour. We had our folding beds with three mattresses and I think we had four blankets and two sheets. Every morning we had to make our own beds, and the sheets’ width when we folded them had to be the same thickness as the blankets. So you had blanket, sheet, blanket, sheet, blanket and one blanket round it. You realised within about twenty four hours of getting there that you were never going to sleep in the sheets, because if the bed wasn’t made up the way it was supposed to be. You got back to your hotel, back to your room and there would be the bed all over the place, knocked down by the sergeants, the DIs. Lots of drill, that was boot camp. We lived like that, had to get on with it, the weakest would not survive. Paignton was glorious, I must admit, the West Country was great, the weather was great and life was great. Eastbourne, no problems really except we had many a disturbed night’s sleep, hence the move of the unit to Bridgnorth where we were transferred. Then Stranraer in winter, I can think of better places. Although we were supposed to be the darlings of the world, aircrew cadets, we slept in Nissen huts in double bunks and half the course after we got into the flying side, half the course would be flying at night the others in the morning and there were sixty of us in the hut. It wasn’t exactly glamorous living, the food was awful and then from there it was to Lichfield, don’t remember much about it, I think we got on with more of the job of flying and things. Then Hemswell of course, we were okay, no not Hemswell, Lindholme, the Heavy Conversion Unit, it was mainly flying, we were NCOs, remember up in Scotland and up until graduation we were LACs, Leading Aircraftmen. Then on graduation became sergeants.
DE: Was there a great difference to how you were treated after you became sergeants?
GW: We used the sergeants’ mess, we weren’t restricted as much as when we were airmen. Again [unclear] after the flying, we did not have many administrative duties to do as aircrew. When one was on the Squadron was flying of virtually nothing.
DE: What did you do in your time off when you weren’t flying?
GW: We enjoyed ourselves [laugh] we were young enough to do that. It was on reflection later on in life when one was a little more mature, I had the greatest admiration for my pilot who had a very young son, was married and people like that who were in their thirties and things. We had nothing to lose quite frankly. I can never recall, standing on the peri-track waiting to go out to the aircraft thinking that we wouldn’t come back. There were some that did of course, some just had their problems. But no we really didn’t think that way we didn’t have that responsibility. Okay I had parents but parents are parents aren’t. No we just got on with the job, certainly from my point of view.
DE: Do you think it was different for your pilot having a young son?
GW: I don’t know quite frankly one didn’t talk in that sort of way. We were there as a crew, we lived together except for the pilot, for the, eh bomb aimer, who was an officer he lived in the mess the rest of us lived in a Nissen hut that’s the crew. My pilot was a great smoker, first thing in the morning he would put his hand out of the bed and get a cigarette then light it and then cough and wait for the wake-up call. He em, he’d never smoke in the air, he saw, when he was on his staff job he had a Polish pilot friend who used to get into the Blenheim or whatever they were flying and light up. One day he lit up and going down the runway opening up, the aircraft just went up. Bill’s view was had the aircraft been cleared for smoking then they would have allowed it, because everybody smoked in those days, or virtually everybody. Although he was a great smoker from the first light from waking up in the morning to going to bed, he never smoked in the air. And it used to be great fun because we’d get back, we did the odd nine hours sortie, we would all as we were taxying around to dispersal we would all get back to the rear door to get out to give him the clear run as soon as he had switched off his engines and done what he had to do. He was down that fuselage like a bull in a china shop, out of the aeroplane, over to the edge of the dispersal the great cigarette on [laugh].
DE: So did you not smoke then?
GW: I used to smoke a pipe. My dear father said to me if you are going to smoke, make sure you smoke a pipe. The first time I wore uniform, St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park, we got our uniforms that afternoon, three of us came out of the flats to go the cinema at Swiss Cottage and as we were just leaving the flats up came our young course officer. We threw him up a salute we thought, great stuff this is what you have to do, gave him a salute. He called me back and said ‘young man we don’t normally salute with a pipe in our mouth’ [laugh].
DE: The problems you had with your ears, what were the RAF medical services like, the medical officers in the hospital?
GW: Oh great no troubles at all.
DE: So what was the procedure for?
GW: Well in those days it was powder basically, the second time it was an injection [laugh].
DE: What in your ears?
GW: No it was a sort of type of penicillin we used if I remember. Certainly when I blew it the second time I finished up in hospital in Wegberg. I, used to get an injection for a few days, it was mainly playing it down. I had no trouble with them.
DE: So when the problem first occurred did you first have to report to the Medical Officer?
GW: Oh yes, landed you know I reported, told them what had happened in sick quarters. I can’t remember the time scale but a couple of days later I was off to hospital. I think Northallerton the RAF hospital there. I was there for a few weeks, it was there I was commissioned; I had to be let out of hospital to go down to, to go and buy my uniform and all that sort of stuff.
DE: So apart from when you had trouble with your ears you did not have any contact with the Medical Officer for any other reasons?
GW: No, nothing else wrong with me.
DE: You mentioned one point, I think when D-Day was on, you were actually at the aircrew reselection place at Eastchurch, I have read that this was a rather infamous place?
GW: In what way?
DE: I’ve read that was where people were sent who were LMF.
GW: Could be, wouldn’t know.
DE: Did you ever know or hear of anybody?
GW: Never met anybody, no.
DE: Any rumours?
GW: Possibly, yes possibly one heard about this sort of thing. There might have been some going through and of course they would have been shunted away. No chaps that sort of teamed up with they all went off to other flying duties.
DE: I’m also quite intrigued you – after the war you also got to flying Mosquitoes and Meteors and other aircraft. Which do you think was your favourite aircraft?
GW: Of those three? Oh the Lancaster without a doubt. I wasn’t a happy bunny in the all-weather world, I thought it was a blip chasing job and not a navigation job, but we did the odd navigation exercise and cross countries, n the main chasing another aeroplane, just as a blip on the screen was not my idea of navigation.
DE: Why did you want to get into Mosquitoes towards the end of the war?
GW: Well it was something new, one didn’t realise at the time. The second time I went back I had no choice I wasn’t meant to be back to it.
DE: So why in particular the Lancaster?
GW: Well of course it was the operational time of life. Remember my time on Mosquitoes and the jets was post-war it was only training all the time. Em, the Lancaster was just such a lovely aeroplane, it was reliable, it was fast for its time, mustn’t forget that. And one was doing the job for which one was trained. I was intrigued by navigation. I did do the staff and navigation course later on in life and part of that waiting to go on the course I spent a few hours on Canberras at Basingbourne before that closed down. Filling in time and then I went to Shawbury and did the staff N course. No navigation was intriguing and doing these long flights over to Germany in those days where you did not have all the facilities you have nowadays it was [laugh] it was a challenge.
DE: I suppose it was your job to see that your way should be in the bomber stream and arrived at the right time?
GW: Yeah absolutely. Yes you had it there and you had winds forecast and it was a forecast there was no met coming back from Germany [unclear]. I think the thing was, the only radar the Lancaster had was the Gee box and that used to get swamped by the time we got over Holland, about four degrees east you might get the odd circle afterwards. The big thing was to get as many wind fixes or fixes to take wind strength and things as you were flying over there from UK to Holland and then applying your own thoughts to the met forecast that you received and working on that and then, getting down to N=navigation and time keeping.
DE: Can you describe for me the process of getting a fix for the wind?
GW: Well take it from the radar, you knew the track you were flying, remember you had your map in front of you, your chart, get a fix on the Gee box and it was not analogue, you had to read it on the screen. So speed was of the essence, you get your fix, you plot it on the chart the Gee chart, transfer it onto the other chart. You knew what time you took it, you could work out where you should have been on your course, connect it up to your fix, which incidentally would tell you where you were relative to track and that would give you your wind speed and direction. Now speed is the essence, when you first started training you thought if you could do one, all this within ten minutes it was good going. After a little while on Lancasters and little experience you could do it in a couple of minutes. That was interesting when the war finished I told you I was going onto selection stage again. That we were flying Ansons and we were filling in time, this was at Half Penny Green and flying back on the Anson I could get a fix and read a book [laugh]. Peacetime flying and filling in time, I think I did a three hour cross country and only used one side of a log so completely happy. It is like everything else you become more experienced and more skilful. We weren’t too complicated with em, navigation aids or they could be. So really all we had was the Gee box and astro, we didn’t get any of the other things I think H2S came in and stuff like that. We never got that on 101 Squadron because we were carrying the extra body and extra equipment so the weight factor ruled it out.
DE: You mentioned Harris being at the briefing for the Peenemunde raid, what did you and your crew think to Harris?
GW: [laugh] what a man they called him Butch Harris. As a nineteen year-old two things that stood out at the briefing. First of all when we were all settled in the briefing room, we used to get officers not connected with operations coming in for briefings. I suppose the equipment officer or something like that. First thing he did was to order out anybody not directly connected with the raid. When that happened the curtains went back. He wasn’t gruff, no, another thing intriguing with him, sitting on the stage he had all these aircrew in front of him, what if we had twenty aeroplanes if we had that number, probably a little less, you were thinking in terms of a hundred and forty aircrew plus the various specialists who were also involved. So you had this whole room there, the Commander in Chief Bomber Command. Took a cigarette out of his case got his lighter to light it, it wouldn’t go, perfectly happy he kept flicking it until he did get a light. I thought that to some extent showed the calibre of the man, he wasn’t embarrassed, just got on with it and then at the end you know when he had the final word, his comment you know, ‘good luck chaps, but if you don’t get it tonight, you are going back tomorrow night and the night after’. I don’t suppose really it was until after the war, I read the Max Hastings book on the bomber offensive that one realised how lucky one was to survive sixteen trips. One might have thought then, God if I had known [laugh], who knows but, that’s how it was. It was a phase of life and I have often said it to people, I said it to a lady on Monday with two young children who was flag raising things who was asking me questions. I had to say to her, that 1939 onwards, we were all involved and there was a totally different approach to life from the recent, wars that we have had and God forbid I would have hated to be in any of these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where you could not identify your enemy from anybody else, but it only impacted on a small percentage of the population, i.e., those that were involved and their immediate families and circle and so people like myself and other. My son never served, my son in law he was in Northern Ireland but he didn’t do Iraq he was out before that. It had no direct impact on us and unless you’ve lived in the ’39 –‘45 bubble and the build up to it before and possibly as it started, it is difficult to envisage how people felt. You can possibly see that as a historian.
DE: Oh most definitely, yes. Which kind of leads me to another question. What are your feelings and thoughts about how the war and in particular how Bomber Command and Harris have been remembered?
GW: Badly, Harris was the only major commander who did not become a viscount. He was fobbed off with a Knight of Garter or something I’m not sure. Never got it anywhere [pause] and a lot of that was connected I think with Dresden and people tend to look on Dresden in a romantic light of the city as it was and not what it actually was. It was a major stumbling block for the Russians to move westwards, it was a railhead, it had armaments there and God knows and therefore it was a prime target at that time. It should have been bombed, the fact that it was destroyed, part of the game. People do not talk about Hanover sorry Hamburg and that suffered just as badly as Dresden did. I can recall when I was in Germany in ‘46 having come out of Hamburg in an armoured car, standing on it on the autobahn outside, looking back and its sheer desolation. But we do not talk about Hamburg because it was an industrial port and things like that. So, Bomber Command were badly done by, I’m never certain that we deserved a Bomber Command medal per se. I think what they have done by giving us the bar is on par with what they did for Fighter Command, Battle of Britain. So they didn’t strike any particular gong for the Battle of Britain which after all was the saving grace of the country at the time. They got us through that period when we were most vulnerable to build on things to get to where they got to in the end. They got their bars, I am perfectly happy with the bar I have got on my aircrew Europe. That did differentiate anyway Bomber Command the people who flew up to D-Day. D-Day got the aircrew Europe Star. People after D-Day got the France and Germany. So yes but I do think that Harris got the bum’s rush so to say and I think he deserved more.
DE: Thinking back to the start of your interview you did mention that you witnessed being on the wrong end of some Luftwaffe bombs in London and again V1s and V2s and then you also talked about was it Cologne and looking down seeing the fires burning because you were in the third wave.
GW: On the last wave, yes. As we approached. I didn’t mention it but this is a real thought a real target somewhere about one o’clock, or later. As we were going along before we got to the target I was thinking had I been on leave, I would have been out or thinking about going home em, at about the time we were bombing. So a little wave and I emphasise the word, a little wave of sympathy went through about doing it and then then it disappeared completely. I had no compunction after that at all. There was a war we were doing it, these targets had to be bombed. I do know some people did suffer, I met a chap at a reunion of 101 Squadron two or three years ago. He lives out at Wragby if he’s still there and he was still having nightmares and hated the Germans. I didn’t, I haven’t had nightmares I must admit. I don’t hate the Germans in fact I lived in Germany after the war as a NAAFI official and I had a Berlin operation, I was in charge of Berlin at one stage completely divorced from the Berlin budget and what went on in the zone. I remember I had a lovely secretary Frau [unclear] whose husband was a real German officer from the Prussian side and one day she was going on about being bombed out, he was in Berlin at the time, he lived in the forest, Charlottenberg area and she talked about being bombed out in 1943. I said ‘what date was that?’ and she told me, ‘I went home because I’d been to Berlin’. Next I said ‘I wasn’t over here that night’ [laugh]. That’s how we got on and we kept in touch for many years after I left Berlin. She died several years ago, no I never had any problem. It’s a phase in life and I said to somebody the other day to me the war was very good because it got me out of printing [laugh] which I did not enjoy one little bit. In those days you know young chaps didn’t have a choice in careers, it was virtually sorted out by the parents. You didn’t have the freedom that they have nowadays. To become a printer was way up on top of the working ladder. Not so sure it is nowadays with unions and who knows what, but no, for me it was a release. Also taking the chance that I did because when I packed it up I was only on a four year commission to start with and I got my permanent commission when I was there.
DE: And then got to see a bit of the world a bit?
GW: And see a lot of the world, so very privileged.
DE: Smashing, I think I have ticked all the little notes I have made. Right at the end if you could tell me your thoughts on the memorial itself that we are building.
GW: I think it is a wonderful idea. I first met the Lord Lieutenant when I, shortly after I became a district councillor and we had our annual civic service and I remember going to that. I was a very new boy, this was in 2007 and the leader of the council, Mayor Marion Brighton introduced me to him, because I had been in Bomber Command and we chatted. I remember him saying to me, I think that this was before the London memorial was built, ‘I think it should be here in Lincolnshire, not in London’. So many of the boys took their last steps in Lincolnshire, you know the twenty two thousand, too their last steps in this county. I remember saying to him, “I quite see where you are coming from sir, I called him sir, but at the end of the day London is the capital of the country and a memorial of that sort should be in London’. I admire him because he did not take any action or overt actions until that was up and then he started. I think he has done a wonderful job and he has an RAF background through his father and his grandfather ha, ha. And I think he is still doing it and I look forward to still being here on the 2nd of October. Who is going to do it or is that still hush, hush.
DE: It is still hush hush.
GW: I don’t care, just want to be here.
DE: Thanks very much.
GW: Pleasure, nice to talk to you.
DE: Oh no pressed record. This is Geoffrey Whittle again, same day same place.
GW: The daily routine on the squadron assuming you hadn’t flown the previous night. Usual thing, get up in the morning, breakfast, go down to the flight or the squadron and Ludford Magna, we lived on one side of the Louth Market Rasen road and the airfield was on the other side. So you go down to the, squadron, might be something going on locally, or not very much. But the main focus was on what was going to happen that night, so you’d be waiting for the battle order to come out. Soon as that was out and pinned up you looked to see if you were on. If you were on the op then your day was conditioned. As a navigator, we would more often than not have pre-nav briefings before the main briefing, that would be a fixed time. Go out to the aircraft and meet the ground crew, not necessary the same aeroplane every time eh, check it over, your own little bit. The gunners would go do what they wanted to do. Then back of to lunch. If I had a nav briefing in the afternoon then you would go down and do your pre-flight planning, then back to the billet. Then off course main briefing, meals main briefing that sort of things, off you go. We were flying in the summer time so all our trips were pretty late at night. Take off, your take off time was fixed then off you go and then ninety percent of the time you would be climbing over base to an operational height and the skies over Lincolnshire used to be pretty full of aeroplanes I can tell you. We developed a system of getting out of it. Saw no point in hanging around, circling with all these people doing the same thing, so we, so we used to shoot off west and climbing steadily and my job then as a navigator to get them back at height over base at the right time, then we would set course. Do the op, get back, land, debrief, breakfast, bed. Sometimes bed would not be until five of six o’clock in the morning. I told you earlier on after our Berlin trip there was no bed it was into Louth, getting the train off on leave. That was it and that went on day in and day out. Then of course we did not fly during the moon period, then you were free, you could do what you liked. There was no booking in or booking out at the guardroom, as senior NCOs and officers you could do as you liked.
DE: So where did you go?
GW: Used to go into Louth.
DE: What were the attractions in Louth?
GW: I couldn’t possibly tell you [laugh]. I could actually it was quite innocent I met a very nice young lady whose parents owned the, was it the Kings Head in Louth? It’s deteriorated, it was quite a nice hotel in these days and they also owned one in Boston. She ran the one in Louth and the parents ran the one in Boston and I would go into Louth and stay the night. Separate rooms I hasten to add. There was none of that nonsense going on in these days. Well it did go on but it didn’t go on in my life. So I would go into Louth or might stay in for the evening and go to the mess, whatever was going on, but, we were not restricted, we were free.
DE: Did you ever go to the NAAFI?
GW: Not as a sergeant. We lived on NAAFI food in Scotland I can tell you the mess food was dire, it was so appalling we had to use it. Yes as an airman I would go into the NAAFI but once one graduated if that was the right word, it was sergeants’ mess, you didn’t go to the NAAFI.
DE: Okay.
GW: They were nothing like they are today I can tell you or they were. They don’t operate in this country now.
DE: Yes quite. Okay thank you very much, I shall press stop again.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWhittleG150626
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoffrey Whittle
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:18:13 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle was born in London. After leaving school at fourteen he became an apprentice printer in the family business. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of the Second World War and trained as a navigator. He served with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna. For his fifteenth operation to Hanover, he was awarded the DFM. Having suffered a perforated eardrum on his sixteenth operation, he was grounded for six months. He then flew briefly with Air Sea Rescue. At end of the war, he joined the RAF Regiment on a short-term commission but continued to serve on both ground and flying duties until retirement in 1961. He then worked with the NAAFI (Navy Army and Air Force Institutes), becoming a senior manager, until 1988. He subsequently became a councillor in Hampshire and Lincolnshire.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Peenemünde
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943-06-25
1943-09-27
1944
1945
101 Squadron
1656 HCU
27 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
briefing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
Gee
H2S
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF West Freugh
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/525/8759/PNorringtonAW2201.2.jpg
7686919a7015466f48da7f5869802ecc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/525/8759/ANorringtonAWJ160827.2.mp3
984821193f71d0d37a1129cf4387f750
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Norrington, John
Alfred W Norrington
A W Norrington
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Norrington, AW
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Norrington (1876617 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin, the interviewee is Mr Alfred Norrington although Alfred is often known as John and will be referred to by that name in this interview. The interview is taking place at Mr Norrington’s home in Bramhall, Cheshire. John I wonder if I could ask you to start by telling us a little bit about your life before you joined the Royal Air Force?
JN. Well my life as a young lad, I can remember always wanted to be on the engineering side. I was always keen on pulling pieces, things to pieces and putting them back together again and then oh, the war started and we was under the bomber, German bomber run to London. At night times we’d hear the bombs come down and then we would be in the shelter and I was growing up into the war area as it might be. The bombs were dropping close to us and I used to think to myself ‘when I grow up I am going to get back at you.’ We’d lie in bed at night time, we’d hear the droning of the bombers and the synchronised sort of drone ‘woom, woom’ and we could tell it was Germans. Anyway er I decided I was working away, going to work and I wanted to go join the Air Force. I was working, I was in a reserved occupation, lorry driving and two of my mates came home on leave one was in the Air Force and one was in the Navy. So we decided to go to London for a day out. I thought meself overnight, I’m going to join up, I am going to volunteer at Romford on our way to London. So the following day we got the bus and we got off the bus at Romford. And I went into the volunteering, enlisting place at Romford and I said I wanted to join, I wanted to volunteer for aircrew in, on Lancaster bombers. So they took my name and address and then we continued to London and had a good day. The following day I went to work and my boss said to me ‘where did you get to yesterday?’ I said ‘I took the day off and I went to London and I volunteered to join the Air Force.’ He said ‘Oh alright then.’ About three weeks later, I went home, went to the office for my orders and my boss said ‘I have had a letter from the Air Force about you.’ I said ‘Mmm.’ He said ‘They were asking me if I am willing to let you go.’ So I said ‘Well I hope you said yes.’ So he said ‘I know you want to go, so I have said yes.’ Fast forward about another five weeks and then I got me calling up papers to go to Cardington for medical, oh I was successful there and then it was about another week or two before I got me final papers to go to London to join the Air Force and be kitted out. From there we went to ITW. It was, it was two, one was at near Bridlington and then another one we went up, oh up north, up north near. Anyway, I went through the ITW work and then after that, mind you we had a leave in between and from then we went to St Athans and.
JM. ITW is initial training?
JN. Wing. Yes.
JM. Could you tell us what you did on ITW?
JN. Well, it was mainly discipline, I had to talk about the Air Force er managing of it, the leave, the respects of what you were doing. It was mainly disciplining young men, you know to be subservient to orders from people with authority which was very nice. I thoroughly enjoyed it and then I came home for another leave after then and then from there we went to straight to St Athans. Then for to do Air Force place at St Athans.
JM. St Athan in South Wales?
JN. South Wales yes.
JM. And that was for engineering training?
JN. That was for the engineering training and then we had sort of, in the hangar we had tables. In the hangar there must have been about ten to twenty tables each with an Air Force corporal around each table and around each table there was about four sometimes six students us us, ourselves, you see. And then we would take notes we‘d have maybe a week on electrical systems, we‘d have a week on pneumatics, we’d have a week on flying controls, we’d have a time on er automatic pilots and we’d have time on fuel flows, fuel systems, emergency fuels. Everything regarding the flying of the Lancaster and also you would have emergency drills and then also you would have certain days of physical training. You could do what you wished, whether it was boxing in the gym, running, out running I used to like running, things like that. Weight lifting and then you would go in and then you would follow it up with another subject. Er, you got, the leave occasionally you got to go home and then after well, after what was is it about nine months, oh quite a while, eight to nine months at St Athans we was really trained and then we had the examination and this was really, really serious. But right from the word go I have always been interested in anything mechanical and even remembering when I went for my interview er about joining the Air Force. I sat before a board there was five Air Force officers there and they were asking me what I wanted. I said ‘Engineering, I want to be a flight engineer, nothing else, I am going for that.’ And they asked me, one or two questions, how to time an engine. Well with working on the lorries in the, the garage at home before I joined up, used to, we’d do all our own repairs and I quoted how to time a petrol engine, right from the word go, the sequence of getting the cam, the distributor right, the er valve timings right, things like that and the chap who was leading said ‘That’s very good thank you very much.’ I said ‘Also do you want to know how to time a diesel engine?’ [laugh] He said ‘No’ he said ‘we won’t have that’ he said, ‘there is no diesel engines on aircraft yet.’ But anyway, anyway I was accepted, I got a, not boasting I come out top on the passing out parade and I had to lead it. The flight sergeant of our squad who was just behind me, just to the left. There was, there was sixty on the little squad what I was leading. We had the parade round the St Athan‘s parade ground, there was the air commodore on the flag, under the flag pole to take the salute and I am marching out in front. I was about six paces in front of my squad who were eight across and about twelve back things like that. So we were walking away and the sergeant who was walking just behind me instructing me, he said ‘When you get level with the, the platform that he’s on’ he said, ‘Order eyes squad, number one squad eyes right.’ So I said ‘All right then.’ So we are marching away there and I was leaving it a little bit late and he went, ‘Eyes right, eyes right.’ Out of the corner of his mouth. Anyway I gave the order ‘Eyes right’ and took the salute and the rest it went off like nice. I came out after we passed out we got leave and er I came home and I was telling my father that I led the parade, he said ‘Oh good heavens if I had known’ he said, ‘your mum and I would have been up there on the train.’ Anyway that was work and then from there I went up to Sandtoft I think it was and from there, there was, there was er, what were we doing? [pause] put it off just one second, tape wasting. Erm, talking away about the engineer and oh I have forgot the sequence of it now. We was, there was about twelve engineers, or temporary flight engineers in training went to Sandtoft and then we used to get out onto the airfield and we go on the aircraft, on the Lancasters that were still training and the pilots that were flying them were also training. We used to go on as a spare bod as just for the experience of going up in the Lanc, the Lancaster. The first time I went up it was quite an experience. I had never ever been up in an aeroplane before in my life and I sat in the mid upper turret. It was vacant there wasn’t a mid upper gunner at the time for whatever reason and flying around there and er it was a Czechoslovakian crew or Polish we had loads of those coming over flying. And we flew, we were doing just circuits and bumps and we were going downwind and a bird flew into one of the air intakes on the starboard outer. Of course that was an emergency for the crew, they feathered the engine but the point was they started jabbering in their native language and I thought to myself ‘Good heavens, what is going to happen now?’ Anyway, anyway we went down, they feathered the engine and come in and did a three point, a landing on three engines. So that was my first little experience of what might happen. But I never ever thought that anything was going to happen to me, you know you always thought you was clear of everything. After about five weeks there doing this that and the other, still having discipline and training, map reading and things like that, we sent, got sent to I think Sandtoft, another Sandtoft and from there we, I was crewed up. Went into the sort, one of the huts on the site and all the other crews that had just come in were there to be crewed up. Other crews come in, they had been flying Wellingtons. They got the knack of twin engines you see and they did their training on Wellingtons, but the crews were going on to Lancaster’s. Well they needed then an engineer and that is where they met the engineers. Anyway we was all in this hut and our names were called out and then, ‘Sergeant Norrington’ yes, ‘Sergeant Norrington with Flying Officer James.’ Oh I was just going to say, when I passed out at St Athans and went up to the what’s it’s name school, I can’t quite remember when I got me wing at St Athan, I think I got me wing [telephone rings]. Yeah got me wings and then we got crewed up and, and came out and the crew introduced themselves and things like that. And the following day we went, we were crewed up to go onto a ⸻oh sorry we went at Sandtoft we was converted onto Halifaxes, seemingly the Halifax had a stronger undercarriage than the Lancaster. So everybody going to fly Lancasters had to do their training, I think it was about eight weeks or something like, training on the, on the Halifax. So that was it, while I was waiting when I got to Sandtoft we had to go in and be re crewed, reassessed on the fuel system of the of the; Halifax. Now engines, flying controls everything was identical to the Lancaster which I had learned. Got really into that and then the Halifax had a different size type of system. So we had to learn all about the fuel system, how to change tanks, emergency tanks on, on the Halifax. And that was it, passed out on that and then from there we went over to Hemswell which was the Lancaster Finishing School and that was where we really got into a Lancaster, oh, the feeling was marvellous.
JM. Can I just take you back a bit because you are one of those people who had the opportunity to fly both aeroplanes. How would you assess the Halifax by comparison to the Lancaster.
JN. Oh not a touch, not a touch. It had, the Halifax had quite a few problems, stalling, it used to drop the port wing viciously so you weren’t allowed to try or to learn when you were training, you weren’t allowed to do any stalling moments on the Halifax unless you was above twelve thousand feet, to give you time. But other than that it seemed to be to me, I suppose it was preference with me wanting the Lancaster it seemed to be a lumbering type of aircraft. I wouldn’t say I, I enjoyed the time that I had with it, things like that. I enjoyed the different systems, every time I had to change fuel tanks I had to go back to the middle of the aircraft between the spars. That’s where all the fuel cocks were then go back up again. We passed out we did circuits and bumps and then cross countries, bombing, bombing targets at home and then we were then going to Lanc, Lancaster Finishing School where we got to the Lancaster.
JM. So you were at Hemswell north of Lincoln, not far from Scampton.
JN. Yeah, that’s where the Lanc, where we finished up before we went onto the squadron and er I remember going on, on to, to the Lancaster and there was a second pilot an instructing pilot, ex tour, tour expired pilot who was give, teaching the up comers all of the things like that. So we taxied out and then we pulled onto the runway, we all did all our final checks and then right we’ve got a green from the caravan and so he, he what we used to call him, the spare, not spare, I’ll remember it in a minute. The spare pilot.
AM. Duty pilot?
JN. No, no it will come to me in a minute [laugh]. He said ‘Right, off you go James.’ Lyle the skipper he just opened the throttles right the way up and we did more or less a left hand turn on the engines. So anyway this co-pilot pulled the throttles back, he said ‘Now James,’ he said ‘that’s your first introduction to airscrew torque.’ So he, all right so we taxied around and came back onto the runway that we come on and he said ‘Now when you go when you lead with the throttles, if you open the throttles like that it goes round. The airscrew torque will say goes to the left.’ So what we had to do when we started off, the four throttles like that you started to open up and you finished up with throttles like that. You’d have the port outer flat out, the port inner on three quarters, the starboard inner half - [unclear]what and the starboard outer that would be ticking over. And then the skipper would, we would go forward on a run and then at twenty miles an hour the tail would come up and then the pilot could steer the aircraft with the rudders. By this time then we were about a quarter down the runway and then I as an engineer, used to have my hand behind the throttles and the skipper used to say ‘Full throttle.’ And I would put the stick right way through up to the gate and lock it on with the friction what’s its name. Then we would go up, things like that. The pilot only touched the throttles twice during a flight. The throttles he had command over at the initial run till he got, it was about sixty miles an hour when the tail come up, things like that. And then coming in to land, skipper would just open up until the tail come up and then I would take over, that was it and the rest of the time I would handle all the throttles, the fuel systems, things like that. Then coming into land when we got permission when we come in onto the funnels and it was pancake, then the skipper would have the throttles coming in to until he had got his stall out and then he would throttle back. That was the only two times that the pilot ever touched the throttles, the rest of the time was the engineers.
JM. So you were doing your OTU training at Hemswell, you were learning how to fly the Lancaster.
JN. Yes.
JM. Did you do any of the leaflet raids or any of the other raids?
JN. No.
JM. You never did any?
JN. No, we never come onto that no, we just did the straight, at Hemswell the straight cross country what’s its names – [unclear] things like that and then we went over to the squadron. We was on the Squadron 101 for about three days when we got our first op.
JM. So you were at Ludford Magna?
JN. Yeah we went onto Ludford Magna that’s where we⸻
JM. You were just posted there, it wasn’t a question of choice?
JN. Oh no, no, no choice we just went over, straight over there, I remember getting into the van and all of us. Two or three crews went over there and er, and we did, we did three ops. As I say there was no, looking at that photograph up there in the dark and when we opened the throttles for the first time, the first op and I thought to myself ‘What have I let myself in for here.’ Anyway off we went then down the runway and ah, we did, I think it was four, about four ops and then the skipper called us together and he says ‘They are asking for a volunteer crew to go onto Pathfinders.’ And he said ‘We wondered.’ We just had a coffee outside the NAAFI van, it used to come round, things like that, we’re having a coffee. So all the crew was there, even the special wireless operator, we will talk about him in a moment. Called us together and they said, he said ‘We were asking for volunteer crews.’ But he said ‘I want a hundred per cent agree, agreeance before we go for it.’ Well we all agreed except the wireless operator who was married. He was the only one married amongst us, a Lionel Wright from Screwling [?]near Chatham, he said, oh he said ‘I object to it,’ He said ‘I am quite prepared to do what I signed up to do,’ he said ‘but I have seen what we are going through’., He said ‘so no’, oh, no, he said ‘no, I won’t volunteer for it.’ I forgot to mention the proviso if you could proviso, your tour of operations ceased at three and you went over to do your thirty ops again. For what ever reason that’s what Lionel said, he said ‘I’ve done the three ops’ he said, ‘I know what we are going to go through.’ So he said ‘No I am not going to do that.’ I don’t doubt if those three ops had have counted he might have said yes. But anyway that was it so Lionel said. The skipper said ‘well no, all right.’ He said ‘you know what your mind is and we will take you.’ So we didn’t go on, we stayed on with Ludford Magna. The first op we did it really opened my eyes you know, it is quite frightening to the point of it, you know you just wondered what was going to happen but I was that occupied I always, I never sat down, I always stood up at the front and when I am stood up my head was about the same height as the pilot ‘cause he had a little seat a little bit higher. So it was quite a level talking field if we spoke but it was also through the mike. Even if you spoke through the mike you automatically spoke to the pilot, you see. And then we went on and I managed to take in what I had let myself in for. Er, along the way we had incidents every track, trip, every trip there was something happened what it was happened. Erm, the daylight oh er, the daylight trips, when you do, did the first daylight it certainly opened one’s eyes about on the bombing run. When you think you had all the bombers airport, bombing commands up the east coast right from the north right down to Essex well they were all bombing the same target. They were all leaving at the same time you were about six hundred mile on the coast, they were all going over and they were all converging by the time you get to the target you get all the Bomber Force and hundred to two hundred bombers all over “H hour.” But the first three to four ops in the night we didn’t realise you just went [sneeze] ⸻excuse me⸻ there was only you up there, things like that, things like that. Anyway the first daylight we went, oh it would be frightening there. It was a little incident we was flying along we was on the bombing run and just to our left was eh B Baker from our Squadron, Flying Officer Tibbs. Only – [unclear] like that. Then there was us and then on the bombing run it was quiet. The skipper will not entertain any casual talk, it was strict like that. ‘Cause he said, he always used to say the navigator wants complete silence ‘cause whoever spoke everybody heard you know. He wants complete silence ‘cause he was mustard our navigator. Anyway was flying on at stage one it was Duisburg and along came, off to our starboard wing came a Mosquito things like that and he had a bit of plaque on the side “Associated News Agencies”. Anyway we were going in the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer is going ‘Steady, steady,’ things like that anyway the skipper, and he looked, things like that, the next minute he went up over the top, this Mosquito went up over the top. He came between us and Tibbs, things like that. Anyway as he got to Tibbs we don’t know what happened then. The following day in the paper there was a photograph of this Lancaster dropping its bombs. What’s his name and I think it said ‘The photograph of the war.’ Our special wireless operator David Burnett he, he wrote down to London to the what’s its name about it and asked. They sent two photographs back which I’ve got over there of the bomb and it showed you the bombs coming down from B Baker. It said the photograph of the war in the paper, now if that Mosquito had stayed where it was for another four to five seconds, what have you that photograph would have been Mrs Norrington’s little boy John in the photograph of the war. But anyway he came over and he was right beside Tibbs you could see the air, the roundel, B Baker. And I was having me main ops egg and chips with Sergeant Hewitt his engineer about four to five hours before. It is marvellous how little ones went on like that, so we got that. Another time er it was I forget without referring to it, if I, it was, Guy Gibson was our master not target indicator, not, not, not Pathfinder bomber, bomber, bomber Mosquito. They used to get to the target, mark the target with a parachute and on the end of the parachute was a flare, things like that and we would come along eh we didn’t, we couldn’t bomb indiscriminately we had to bomb on instructions. We were on the bombing run and Guy Gibson came over ‘Strongbow one to strongbow two,’ he says ‘I am at three thousand feet, I can see everything.’ He said ‘give em hell, give em phutt.’ And that was the end of Guy Gibson. What had happened oh his instruction was ‘Overshoot red two, drop the what’s its name down to the TI and then it might drift.’ We used to come along Gordie the bomb aimer, he come along and he would bomb that flare, things like that. Well when the wind drifted it would take it away from the carpet. So then Gibson would come in and say ‘overshoot the red TI by two seconds.’ Or ‘undershoot’ and things like that and that was the way it goes. Anyway that was it we read the paper the following day where Guy Gibson he’d gone and I got the photograph of that raid and they were saying. And also a picture of Guy Gibson’s grave, just inside what’s its name erm.
JM. What do you think happened to Gibson, ‘cause some people say he was shot down by one of our gunners but the general feeling is that he crashed the aeroplane because he didn’t know how to handle the Mosquito, do you ever think ⸻
JN. Oh no,no, no, once I know he was flying the Lancaster he flew the Lancaster “Dambusters” I mean once you fly, flown ‘cause when you’re training you go up from small to big you just don’t go in feet first. He knew what he was doing. I would think, he said ‘I am at three thousand feet.’ Well when you think of all the, all the Lancasters while they are dropping bombs and he is down at three thousand feet. Now whether it clipped him something like that but I mean he landed in Sweden was it about hundred, hundred and twenty five say a hundred and fifty mile away from where he went silent. So what happened then I don’t think I think he had to go down, and he wouldn’t crash land. He, he it’s all, you don’t know what to think. But that was, was what’s its name and when other bomb, target markers they talking around there, you know him and the deputy. You know it’s like they, talking outside a café having a drink of tea you know. Then we would erm, over the target the bombs would go and the Lancaster used to give a bit of a shake. You could feel the bombs dropping away there and then we would turn onto a reciprocal course for home. About half an hour before we got to the target the navigator would always come on and say after, after the what’s its name, after the target, ‘if anything happens head for this direction.’ That direction compass reading and that will be the nearest American forces or English forces to get down and things like that. Then also he would give the skipper his reciprocal course out of the target. It must have been oh maybe about a fifteenth or sixteenth, well through the tour and was approaching the bombing run and coming on, Lancs was coming up either side of us, you could see them and I thought of something, something was wrong, the sequence had failed what ever, I couldn’t put me hand on it. Anyway we dropped the bombs and we carried on and it must have been about quarter of an hour before I realised, ‘reciprocal!’ ‘Jeepers, crowthers, skipper’ said Jim.’ We’d all, everybody in that crew knew the drill before we got to the target where the navigator would give us our reciprocal course pilot to come out and which direction to head. And not one of the crew had remembered it ‘till we got over, well by this time we was about another hundred and fifty miles deeper into the what’s name. So the skipper turned round [laugh] upped the revs, ‘cause the throttle was fully open, the, the gate up increased the revs, he put the nose down and when you got to about a hundred and eighty it used to shake things like that. Come back, anyway we come back and we were that late getting back they got us down a bit of a, things like that. But would you think, you know, everybody had forgotten we would, you are always on the go as I say I was always on the go, looking around, looking up, marvellous that one. Anyway the special wireless operator David Burnett was – [unclear] was known as airborne cigars ABCs things like that. And we was a night trip and he came over the intercom and he says ‘Gunners’ he says ‘keep your eyes open,’ he says ‘there are two night fighters, they are arguing who is going to shoot a Lancaster down.’ The words hadn’t left his mouth [laugh] the mid upper gunner ‘Corkscrew starboard go!’ The skipper, you know never said what, straight down or went down nose down like that and think well, this 88 was coming from our starboard. Wherever they came, you went towards them and you went down, see, and went round, anyway I went up into the roof, hit me head, like that ‘till we pulled out. Pulled out and come over resumed the course and he went round and he come back again and so we did starboard, port down and this port down, another corkscrew. He went over and as he went across the top of us there was a Lanc off on our right wing he must have seen him coming, so he corkscrewed towards him to go down and as he went to corkscrew his wing, his starboard wing obviously went up to give him a tilt and this 88 got him and shot at him in his starboard wing. Anyway he levelled up and the flame, he caught fire in his starboard wing. We was watching him like that he was flying straight and level then and the flames were silhouetting the whole fuselage. We saw the rear turret, the rear gunner go out the back and we saw one, two, three, lost count going out. [unclear] you could only get out the front you couldn’t get out the back door ‘cause you went straight into the tailplane, thing like that you see it went out and then there was a pause and then the skipper came out, the last to come out. He got out and about a couple of seconds and she went down like that. Just so serenely went down but it all went like clockwork, the drill things like that and that was the, the mid upp, the.
JM. Special op.
JN. The [pause] the German speaking wireless op. They were all Jewish or of Jewish descent all of the, nearly every aircraft had one of these Jews and they were ⸻ ‘cause Jew wasn’t a bad, nasty word that people are calling it now, not really that way ⸻ but they had their own war against Hitler and it was their way of getting back and David Burnett he was only eighteen same as me, things like that, but he saved it, what’s it’s name, things like that saw them coming.
JM. Did they serve under their Jewish name or did they change their names.
JN. Oh no there was one, we had, we had two one that was Jacob, what was, I don’t think I got it in me what. Oh it will have it on it on the flight sheet, the bombing order, ops order got that one in there. And David Burnett well that’s an English name and things like that. But the first one we had he was quite a decent guy very rotund very very fat in other words. He used to sit at a table just behind the wireless operator and every op that we had after each op, oh for a starters when we were in the dispersal waiting to take off and Jacob would go round and collect anything he could find, bricks anything that would go into the flare chute. Now evidently when we dropped the bombs, the flare chute, the flare was synchronised with the bomb – [unclear] when he presses his button, the bombs go like and the flare goes down and it takes a photograph of what have we done you see. Well then Jacob used to sit beside the flare chute so after the bombing run the flare chute was empty and what he used to do, he used to throw these stones or these bricks, if you get a half house brick or a good house brick, they go down. He used to say ‘I have my own private war with zee Germans’ he says ‘when we are over zee target’ he says ‘I got dropping bricks onto them.’ So you can think of some poor German walking around clock, stop, stutter, woom [laugh] You know I used to laugh about it, but er⸻
JM. Could you hear them on the, on the intercom because their jobs was to pretend to be German radio operators weren’t they, could you hear that?
JN. Oh yeah. If ever he spoke, when ever he spoke he spoke but what he did on the what’s it’s names would be like, and he also saved us a bit once. Just shows you how, we were coming back and and it was bad weather at Ludford Magna and we were diverted. Now evidently what Lionel Wright our wireless operator he never got the message from base to divert, I think we diverted to Tangmere if I remember rightly. He, he never got it but David Burnett he was listening in and he heard that you know they’d come over, but he never heard Lionel tell the pilot or tell and also the navigator ‘cause he wanted to know anything like that. So he came over and broke in and says you know ‘There is a diversion for us.’ That was it so we went, come back, so that, it was another little thing that, a little anomaly. But er it was always about half an hour maybe, about three quarters of an hour from the target on a daylight and we used to, every now and again the skipper would come over and he’d go, ‘Rear gunner you all right there?’ ‘All right fine skipper.’ ‘Mid-upper?’ ‘Yes, fine skipper.’ Gordie the bomb aimer ‘You all right Gordie down there.’ ‘Oh a bit of trouble skipper me bomb sight should be’ well, he said ‘I have got it to pieces.’ ‘Oh what’s gone?’, anything like that.’ Well first thing I thought, now the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer‘s panel and the skipper’s blind flying panel are both worked by a vacuum. Now on the starboard engine there was and on the two starboard engines, on the two starboard engines there was a vacuum pump you see. And it came in the one on the starboard engine did the pilot, blind flying and the one on the port did the bomb aimers equipment. So and there was a gauge in the middle with a needle, things like that and that was always on for the blind flying panel. You used to look at it and you can see it there so that was it. Anyway Gordie the bomb aimer came on he said ‘it wasn’t on.’ The first thing I did was looked at the gauge well switch the gauge – [unclear] switch the gauge over and it was down. Well I thought, I said ‘What it is your, your vacuum pump on your engine isn’t working Gordie.’ ‘So what are we going to do?’ ‘I’ll switch it over to the other one.’ Now when I did that it def, it robbed the blind flying panel of the gyros you see, so I could only leave it for about two to three minutes. So I told him what I was going to do, obviously I told the skipper, things like that the gyros would do about twenty two thousand rpm in the blind flying panel. So I switched it over to Gordie, I said ‘Put your things back together,’ I said ‘you have got about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes.’ So I switched over to him like that, got it going. I said ‘I am giving you five minutes and then I will have to go back to the skipper‘s to keep his going.’ So for the bombing run I was to and fro ing things like that. That’s another little what the engineer did all the, everything was cropping up.
JM. Did the captain ever train you to fly the aeroplane in the event of him being injured.
JN. No,no I did flying at the ITW in a link trainer and I did some more in between me ops, when I was, when I finished me ops I landed up at West Raynham on MT. Lorry driving Queen Marys that type and I used to I got in touch well got to know the sergeant who was in charge of the link trainer and so I used to go in there. I have got that in me flying log book – I think, one or two. Oh when we were flying the Halifaxes on two or three times we had a dual control one so I used to get in then. Got it straight and level, that’s all I was bothered about then and then er, no I didn’t do any more. There is another time, it was a daylight oh, [laugh] we got heavy flak on a daylight coming up and we were hit, stop [recording stopped] The bombs, we get Flak and it hit the number two tank, things like that and the spray was coming out the back just like a vapour trail and I said to the skipper ‘We have been hit in the starboard wing.’ As I say it was a daylight and unless you, until you have flown at night time in a Lanc you don’t realise how the sparks are coming out. There is such a high compression engine that they are decarbonising are they are flying. So I thought, Oh, spray and sparks coming out. So I said to the skipper ‘I have got a leaky tank’ I said ‘I am going to switch all the gauges over, the tank cocks over to run all four engines off that leaking tank.’ So I got the engine, the radio operator who is sat near the cross feed tank cock in the middle of the fuselage, got him to turn that off. So what I started to do me, me gauges and, and cocks I started running all four engines off that leaking tank. Now there was about two hundred and fifty gallons in that tank but in the tank outside of that there was another hundred and fifteen gallons and that you can’t run off that, you have to transfer. The idea was you had to transfer that into number two tank, so I am running all four engines off a leaking tank and also transferring another hundred and fifteen gallons into a leaking tank things like that. So I cut the revs down to diminish the sparking effect because all that was in my control, all the skipper just had to do what he could. So he is sort of flying skew whiff a bit and then late, like it lasted about forty five minutes before all that fuel had gone dry you see and it seemed like an eternity on there. Anyway I am down off waiting for the red light, when the fuel pressure drops the red light comes on see, so I am waiting for that red light to come out before switching over to a full tank, you see. So I am down here by me cocks, my skipper was here, I was stood beside him and then my gauge, my fuel cocks were here, just round the corner. So I am waiting for the red light to come on to switch over to a full tank you see and anyway the skipper comes on the intercom and he says ‘I hope you’re keeping your eye on my fuel engineer’ he said, ‘I don’t want my engines cutting.’ I said ‘You fly the bloody aircraft’ I said, [laugh] ‘you fly the ruddy aircraft, I will look after this.’ And a couple of seconds later the light came in and so I switched over you see and then all I had to do then was start running off, the outer number two tank and then transfer that, because the skipper is having a job to keep that wing up. Anyway I started when I got stabilised and then I worked out so I said to the navigator ‘How many mile is it to the target?’ So he said ‘Oh, about five hundred.’ Well you could work an estimate out of one gallon per one mile as a rough. I never achieved that, I’ve achieved point nine five but never got to one. So that was a guide so I looked at me gauges so I said to the skipper ‘I said ‘we have got enough fuel to get to the target.’ So he said right and he carried on and little by little that weight came up so it got a bit more easier for him. We bombed things like that and then we turned round. I said to the engineer, said to the navigator ‘How many mile is it to the enemy coast?’ French coast, so he told me I think, ‘about six hundred.’ I forget the actual figures so I said ‘oh, skipper’, I said, ‘We have got enough fuel to get to our coast.’ So he said ‘All right,’ so I kept the revs down , we were coming down slowly and then we were approaching the coast I said ‘We’ve got enough to get home skipper.’ Things like that. Anyway the skipper cutting a long story short he got a DFC for pressing on things like that and when he got it he dedicated it to the crew and things like that, so that was another one that. Erm, another daylight. We got, we got [laugh] have you seen the Mae West haven’t you?
JM. Yes.
JN. Well, big sort of cover round here, well, the astrodome is up there and the wireless operator is sat here things like that and down beside him he used to have his side pack like you got with Very cartridges. He had a Very pistol which was a massive big what’s it’s name it had so much kick when you use it you had to put it into an an into a –[unclear] into the roof and fire it on accounts of the kick. That was decided what’s its name, if we got flak and the astrodome more or less ripped away, things like that. Some flak, some flak had come down [laugh] cut his collar off, things like that, cut his collar off [laugh].
JM. Cut his collar off?
JN. Yeah he used to have a moustache, I never seen a moustache drop so quickly [laugh] all things like that, that chopped that away and when he looked inside his bag, some flak had gone in, now the, the car, cartridges as well about inch, inch in diameter something like that and you get the percussion cap in the middle, there was six of them in there and some flak had, and it had gone right beside the percussion cap. If the flak had hit that percussion cap that would have gone up and it is right beside a fuel line, it went across – [unclear]. So [laugh] he was looking after us that day up there. Oh dear, happening.
JM. John would you tell us about your crew, you talked about a couple of members, could you tell us who they were and something of their backgrounds.
JN. Well for a start, got to know them, obviously we was all different characters. The, the, the skipper he had his little, he was twenty eight, he was working part time, well part ownership of an engineering shop he wanted to fly he joined up and he was learning his training in a Tiger Moth and as a check he is flying over somewhere in Canada there was a chap out duck shooting and evidently the noise of the Tiger Moth scared the ducks, he couldn’t get the, so he shot at the aircraft. So poor Lyle he got some flak in his backside, his back cheeks [laugh] to this day he still got it in, that was a flight coinc, anyway. He came over and they went onto what’s its name Air Speed Oxfords then onto Wellingtons, then onto course. The bomb, bomb aimer Gordie Bullock he came from Northern Canada and he was a gold miner, worked down the mines, things like that, he was quite a character. He was a flying officer the skipper was flying officer and the navigator he Bob, Bob Irvine he was in, he was an academic, Saint, something to do with teaching but not actually a teacher. Those were the three the main crew. Wright, Lionel Wright the wireless operator he came from Strood as I said, things like that. I didn’t know much what he did. Johnnie Walker was the rear gunner he was younger than I and you know, he was just eighteen same as me, he was a bit, a bit of a loner. He never sort of came with us, he was friendly and things like that but he just done his job. Erm, he used to, used to talk occasionally over the what’s its name, skipper would ask him if he was all right you know. And every time, every time we dropped the bombs skipper used to say ‘all right Gordie,’ Gordie ‘all right skipper, bombs gone.’ ‘let’s get the hell out of here.’ [laugh] – [unclear] ‘Bombs gone.’ And the voice used to come from the rear gunner ‘let‘s get the hell out of here.’ Get back home. Erm, another daylight we got flak and down, ‘where was it?’ [unclear] Down the side of the aircraft here there was two rods one did the rudders, the others did the elevators. Two rods about an inch wide, inch in diameter, two rods like that all the way down from front to back, down that side of the aircraft. Skipper, skipper if he did this the rods would go back and forwards with the rudders, you know like that. Anyway got this flak tat tat tat, tat all over the place and then the skipper came over and he called and he said to me, ‘Me controls is jammed engineer.’ So I said ‘All right then I’ll have a look,’ So took me oxygen, put, disconnected me oxygen mask and then put me portable on ‘cause with the oxygen level but then I didn’t have any communications. Didn’t have, didn’t have a portable communication like that. So I unplugged and I went back looking down and as I walked back these two rods, well they used to work like that in runners. Some flak had come through from the outside and it had come up, and it had pierced, and it had jammed between two runners, the two what’s its name things like that. And it couldn’t, that’s what it was you see anyway so I got me portable oxygen bottle and I managed to knock that out, things like that. I’m not, can’t talk to the skipper ‘cause I couldn’t say ‘oh it’s this, I am doing this, I am doing that.’ I managed to knock it out and it went, so then it was free he could tell, things like that. But [laugh] when I said to the skipper you know about the what’s its name ‘you fly the aircraft.’ You know I felt like when I was going to go back in you know ‘I am going back here now you fly the aircraft.’ But when I knocked it out that what it, and I would loved to have been able to get that piece of shrapnel, things like that was stopping it. Erm, ‘cause what he would have had to do is to fly on the trimming tabs you know, ‘cause it would have always have been the opposite, you wanted to have gone up you would have to go down. That was another incident that everything, coming up oh.
JM. Can I just? [Appears to be doing some adjustment to the recorder]
JN. Yeah, yes we come back from an op one daylight day, come back from an op and called up airfield, William Squared [?] airfield what’s its name “Pancake.” So coming in and they said ‘There is a bit of a cross wind.’ So came in Lyle ready for it, anyway we planned, flared out come down and this wind caught us, so Lyle the skipper said ‘Overshoot!’ so first thing I did, open the throttles right away, straight away –[unclear] and then the starboard outer engine cut so next thing I’ve got to feather I said ‘I am feathering.’ Things like, which takes about four minutes, five minutes, seconds, four seconds, five seconds to get the drag off that aircraft and Lyle struggled with it. How he kept it going I don’t know, anyway we had full power on the three engines and that way, and we took off and got up on the circuit. Come out of the circuit so I said ‘Well when we get to the circuit’ I said ‘I will unfeather and then we will do a test.’ So he said ‘All right then.’ So we unfeathered and got that working again and then I started running that starboard engine you know on the fuel flow, things like that and it hesitated once or twice things like that. So anyway we came back into land and after we went in to the crew room, then we had the message that the [bleep] so anyway as I said the red light was still on on our starboard undercarriage, so I said I would do some tests. So behind the, the wireless operator was the hydraulic tank and hydraulic pump for the undercarriage hydraulics. Well when the undercarriage goes down pump down when the jack reaches the end of the travel the pressure builds up so the cut out, there is a cut out on the, on the hydraulic system otherwise the pump will be pumping at nine hundred pound pressure right away. And that cut out used to go ‘bang!’ things like that. So I said to Lionel, I said, ‘we are going to lower the undercarriage, come down’ I said, ‘tell me when you get the bang.’ So he is listening and said ‘Yes, I’ve got the bang.’ So I knew the pump was working and pushing it down. Now on the side there is a call light, every position had this call light. So if I pressed the call light mine everybody would get one and if they weren’t on they’d come on, pay attention to whatever is doing. Well that was in through the what’s its name, through the same switch. This is what I learned at St Athan on the electrics, well I came into being there. Now we had a two speed super charger M Gear and FS Gear to get up to the twelve thousand feet and change gear you know [laugh] well if the selection of that, if it, you never took off in FS Gear you always had to be into M Gear, medium super charge. Now if that was in FS Gear you used to get the red light, things like that. So I checked that and that wasn’t working and, and the other, other one is was the call light and then another light that went back, forget where that one went but I knew that they all went through, all went through this undercarriage switch, the, the hydraulic pump light went through this switch the indicator for the what’s its, undercarriage went down and I knew so that’s what it was. I said to the skipper ‘Well, I think it is the switch on the under cart’ thing like that, So I said ‘It’s up to you whether you, you know.’ So he called up so they said ‘we will divert you to Carnaby.’ Right on the Yorkshire coast. So we diverted over to Carnaby and we were coming in over, the, the you know the funnels lights, the lights of it coming in, they’re in the sea on the what’s its name so we coming in low it’s day light then coming in so the skipper says ‘good job they have got these, good job they have got these lights, because we’ve got paddle blades on the what’s its name if anything happens.’ Bit of a quip ‘If anything happens we’ve got paddle blades.’ We’re coming over the hedge and touch down and he said approaching, the skipper said ‘well all the crew go to the crash positions between the two spars.’ So I said ‘Well, do you mind if I stay here’ because I said ‘when you touch I will cut the engines, if it goes down on fire I will cut the engines.’ And he said ‘alright engineer thanks very much you do that.’ So we came over and sailing down and I looked beside me we were doing, well we could stall about eighty five things like that eighty five to ninety. We’re coming in and there is a fire engine right beside us before we touched down. Anyway Lyle come down and he kept that wing up, landed on the port wing the port wheel ‘till that went ‘till the air speed dropped then come down and we were all expecting whoosh. We just, before that, I cut the engines, cut down just down like that and she landed. Saying to myself ‘quickly!’ caught the engine and kept it running, things like that. But that was all on account of a little micro switch that wasn’t functioning everything like that, ah.
JM. John, as you got to the end of your tour, you did thirty operations.
JN. Thirty one.
JM. Thirty one, was it a time of tension as you got towards the end of the tour?
JN. No not really, no it’s, we got used to it we knew, we knew we all volunteered we knew what we were letting ourselves in for er, but there were loads of frights, I mean to say I wasn’t scared, there’s not any, you know, frightened, you are not where you are crying for your mother and things like that. The worse time, well three or four times where I felt really, really afraid you know was when we was attacked you know by the Junkers and then also when we got the fuel what’s its name. The tension of waiting for that fuel to be used up before a spark ignited it things like that. [unclear] but you knew what you had to do, I never faltered in doing what I do, it was the way I was trained. I was that interested into it you know, and I thought, well I can’t let the crew down. But if you’d made a mistake you were letting seven others go, you know, fall by the wayside. I just put it down to experience we’d be one daylight er, there was one off our starboard wing a Lancaster I’d been having a meal this is what happened on three times at the table having the main op, it was egg and chips that was a treat, main ops meal been having them I’d been at the table various table you know I didn’t sit with who [unclear] every day. The officers they were in their own mess they were, things like that, kept with them. But you get to know the persons, things like that and I been flying and I’ve seen on a beautiful daylight, I have seen one flak come up puff, puff, puff and I seen the one completely obliterated and I thought to myself. It was B Baker I been out, I was having a dinner with them, you just turn round and oh well you go on with it. Erm, collisions we used to get a lot of collisions if ever you get into a bombing run you know was the worst of all. Was on one bombing run and as the Lanc above us to the left oh about twenty feet above us and as I say when you leave the coast you are all sort of converging. So over the target you are gradually converging and this one was coming over and he had got his bomb doors open so I just tapped the skipper on the shoulder, things like that, steady, hold it there skipper, I said to the skipper ‘keep staring like that’ and he got his bomb doors open and as I say he is gradually converging things like that and our skipper was watching, ‘bomb doors!’ [emphasis] ‘bombs gone skipper’. None of this holding for a photograph, went over like that. Now I mean we didn’t see when they came down but we don’t know if they had gone down. We’d been in and seen the bombers, especially at night time, you see the bombers beneath things like that. If you see one between you out like that you know your bombs are not going to hit him but there’s you know somebody behind. Its, over the target it is catch as catch can you are all doing your best. But you used to get the ma, the master bombers in the Mosquitoes, you’d hear them milling around some of the funniest names call signs you know so that they weren’t sort of recognised, one might be. And they talk like you and I talking - [unclear] overshoot. Guy Gibson he was coming out so easily. ‘I am at two thousand, three thousand feet chaps give them I can see everything give them hell.’ And that was Guy Gibson gone.
JM. When you got to the end of your tour what happened to you after that?
JN. After the tour I came home on indefinite leave I got home, I went straight home down to Graves to me mum and dad. I was on leave oh, must have been about two month ‘cause I finished me tour and then you had this rest period. I think it was six months before you were due to go back on ops again you see. Went down there with me mum when I, when I left the squadron to go home they gave me some ration coupons and of course I went out with them they gave me just for so long. So I had to ‘phone up the Ludford, yeah Ludford Magna to send me. Anyway they sent me some more, what’s its name coupons for me mum and then I had a telegram to report to Brackla, Nairn right up Scotland right at the tip. So right they sent the travel warrant things like that, so I went up, caught the train, things like that, I think it took me nearly three days to get up there, all the way through changing and this that and the other got up to Brackla and Nairn was just about eight mile inboard. So I got up there [laugh] and I ‘phoned up the station you know to say I was here, would you send transport for me. So they said, I think it was about eight o’clock at night, maybe a bit less. ‘Oh’ he said ‘we are too busy for you tonight’ he said, ‘book in at the local hotel.’ So I booked into the local hotel and then the following day I got cal. Transport, transport came in for me and when I got to Brackla there was about six hundred expired aircrews like myself, things like that. But they were closing Brackla down, so I was only there for four days and then I went into the office he says ‘We’re gonna send you away’, he says ‘you are back on leave.’ He said ‘Where would you like to go? where would you like [emphasis] to go?’ I said ‘Well I have just had a long leave down at home,’ I said ‘I would like to go to me girlfriend, me fiancé in Bramwell.’ So he said ‘all right then.’ He filled, so I got a train down here and I was here in Bramwell with Nancy, we were courting then. I, I had permission from her Mum and Dad, come down and I was with them for about two to three months things like that. Then I got a call up to go to erm, West, West Raynham, West Raynham well he said, early on when I, I got finished I said ‘what I want to do, I want to go onto MT.’ With being a lorry driver before I joined up I was a, I used to come home from school on a night time. I’d be about twelve, thirteen and in the next road was a haulage contractors. I used to go round there and go out with the lorries, and come and fill them up with lorries, fill em up with petrol. And then of a weekend the governor would ask me if I would like to go in on a Sunday and help the fitter that used to do the repairs on a weekend and clean. I used to clean the parts, I’d get me self three shillings I think I used to have more more spends than me Dad used to get. We’d go in and then of course I was half working on the lorries and things like that. I was in my element and Ben the fitter he was quite a nice chap, thinking about it if I asked him a question he wouldn’t say ‘No, no get that cleaned, I want that clean.’ He would answer me and explaining to me, that’s where I learned to time an engine and things like that. I used to go out with things like that, it was marvellous. And then I said to the governor there that I would like to come when I leave school, ‘I would like to come and work for you.’ Used to go out with him. Anyway I left school on Friday and I started work on the Monday as a tail board monkey, things like that and we used to go up through London to the other side of London with oil and things like that. And the, the bomb the blitz had been going on during the night. We had gone up in the days there had been hose pipes over there. One it was in the paper, one a loc, a bus had got blown up, you might have seen it, on its side we went right by that and that is what inspired me more so. Cor, I would like to get back at that lot.
JM. I want to ask you about that John, you made that your motivation. When you got to the end of the war and you had done your tour. How did you feel about that, did you feel you had your revenge, how did you feel about what had happened.
JN. I felt that I had done my bit. I felt what satisfied or gratified that I had done my bit. I was glad that my boss let me go. Because I thought when I’d gone home on leave, I will give you an example in a moment. I’d gone home on leave and I’d seen other tall young men walking around and I used to think ‘Well why are they not in the service? Why are they not?’ Disregarding your rejecters you know. Conch, contryv [sic] what they call themselves. And then one weekend I got a leave, I came home, I was half way through me tour came home and er, I got a week, a week’s leave. I bumped into two of me school mates Ray, Ray [unclear] Rover? I can’t form it! He was in the Army and he was home on leave, he had been wounded he was and he was on the French Coast and he got wounded he came home. And the other one was a, see their faces he was in the Navy and he was in, he was out in the Atlantic on a victualling ship. The victualling ship used to carry food supplies and they used to rendevous in the Atlantic to feed the Destoyers things like that you see. He was on that and he come home on leave. So I met them I said ‘Well we will go to the Queens.’ To dancing tomorrow night, they said ‘alright.’ I said ‘I will see you in the bar downstairs.’ So I said ‘well let’s wear our civvies, I said ‘alright then.’ So we all three civvies, three young eighteen, eighteen and a half nearly nineteen old. And it was a narrow bar, about as long as this but just as wide and a little bar not much wider than the windows and the door and a table at this end about this length. So we walked in, two boys Ray and George they sat down we’re having a pint so I walked up to the bar. Now I know the manager of the Queens hotel ‘cause he used to be at the dance where we used to go dancing upstairs. Quite what’s its name and he was leaning one side of the bar on our side not behind the bar the barman there and then he had a colleague that was leaning on this sides. So we walked up, I walked up, ‘what you doing.’ ‘Oh three pints please.’ So waiting, he did me two pints, well I couldn’t, I couldn’t manage three, I hadn’t big enough hands. So I went back and dropped the two pints onto the lads and I went back and he was saying this ‘look at that lot there,’ he said ‘my son’ he was saying it so I could hear it. He said ‘Oh’ I said, the first time he said ‘my son’s out on a victualling ship, on a Destroyer.’ On a victualling ship that was it ‘out in the Atlantic.’ He said ‘look at this lot here.’ He was leaning away. So I came back, put the two glasses down and went back for me third one so I said to him, I said, ‘I couldn’t help overhearing what you was saying’ I says, I said, ‘but that chap on the left’ I said ‘he is in the Merchant, he is in the Navy.’ I said ‘and for all you know your son and his victualling ship might have been supplying to him.’ I said ‘the other one there’ I said ‘and he is home and he the war, injured, leave from France.’ I said ‘ he is in the Army’ I said ‘and now me’ I said ‘I’m in the Air Force.’ I said ‘I have just come home on leave.’ I said ‘I am on ops.’ I said. Anyway this chap who was talking he felt that ashamed, not the one who walked away and the owner of the what’s its name, I could tell he didn’t know what to do, didn’t know what to do. So that’s where I was glad, I was glad that I volunteered you know, thought, or probably wouldn’t have thought about it at the time. But if I had remained young working, things like that people might have spoken about me, ‘look at that young man there, my husband’s away you know fighting.’ All little things like that sort of turn over in your mind but.
JM. John, did you keep in touch with your crew once you’d finished your tour and are they still with us or what happened to them?
JN. Yes, yes the skipper sadly died about four, five years ago he was ah he was twenty eight he was. We finished ops and then I retired in nineteen seventy. We kept writing. He came over on holiday, he came over twice him and his family. Now we was here, I was up here then and obviously, he ‘phoned up he was at Chester. He said he would, he’d like to meet us, so we went over to Chester. I said oh, alright then we will go over and see them. So we went over to Chester, my mum was up on holiday me dad had passed away then. So David, Denise he wasn’t married then and my wife who was alive then and me mother we went over to Chester where they were. And talking away there things, we had a lovely meeting there and we took ‘em round. Prior to coming and I knew we was going over to see them so what I did, I saw my gaffer at work and I said ‘I have got my skipper over.’ Things like that ‘what’s the chance of bringing him round?’ I was on holiday at the time so I said ‘like’ so he said ‘yeah’ he said ‘I’ll get a pass for you.’ So, anyway we went over to pick them up and Lyle said ‘There is a little place nearby’ where one of his friends had been over, a lovely little church.’ He turned out to be a lay preacher after what’s name ‘and there is a stream rolling beside it.’ Sounds so tranquil so beautiful ‘and there is an organ.’ He said ‘and my friend said I would like to go and see it.’ I said ‘well alright if we can find out where it is.’ I asked a local, he said ‘just round the corner, some little place.’ We went in there with me mum, David and Denise and it was a lovely church, it was so picturesque, so help me Bob the organ was playing inside the church. That made Lyle‘s day, things like that. So we took him home and then from then I said ‘now we are going down as a surprise.’ So we drove over here, we drove them to Woodford and went in and I took them round the factory, things like that, I introduced them to the what’s is name, my foreman, gee [unclear] eh, eh William Squared was what’s its name MG 139 was their what’s its name. So I said ‘this is where it was made.’ He was over the moon with that, then after that we went out. We took them to a Chinese meal in Hazel Grove and then went back to Chester things like that dropped them off and then came back and it’s four o’clock in the morning after that day when David and I. Now point, best part was David could drive and he used to drive my car. So when we got over there when we sort of drove from the Chester hotel going down, David drove my car and I drove Lyle‘s car and he said ‘the biggest fear John’ he said, ‘I landed in London’ and they went into Tottenham Court Road somewhere to a car hire business.’ And he said ‘they had a Hillman Minx.’ He said ‘they turned me loose in Tottenham Court Road.’ And he had never driven on the wrong side of the road before so everywhere we went I drove his car and he liked it, very nice that worked out and then. I went seventy, I went over there on my own and had a nice entertaining three weeks over there. And then now he has passed away and now his son, no sorry his daughter Carol and her husband they come over. They are teachers, things like so it is nice for David and this they come over and they stay with David and Denise at what’s its name and the mid upper‘s son, mid upper gunner’s son Brian he lives right on the east, west coast of Canada he comes over occasionally he was here about two. So I keep in touch with them but it’s lovely, in my dotage I sit back and reminisce what has happened you know.
JM. John you have been absolutely marvellous this morning, thank you very much for your interview. I think you have really showed me just how complex the Lancaster is and the range of skills that you mastered absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed.
JN. My pleasure, my pleasure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Norrington
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-27
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ANorringtonAWJ160827
PNorringtonAW2201
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:17:11 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
John Norrington was a lorry driver when he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. After initial training, he went to RAF Sandtoft on Lancasters and Halifaxes; he crewed up with Flying Officer James, then was at RAF Hemswell for the Lancaster Finishing School. John was posted to 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna where he flew thirty-one operations in Germany and France until demobilised.
John discusses Czechoslovakian and Polish aircrew, Jewish personnel, and German-speaking servicemen tasked to listen to German radio communications and disrupt them. He talks about civilian and service life, military ethos, losses, plus personal recollections of Guy Gibson.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
Germany
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
demobilisation
faith
fear
flight engineer
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Sandtoft
RAF St Athan
recruitment
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/526/8760/AOrmorodJ170207.2.mp3
01f676b4e0d67a79cb82581d2cf6da36
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ormerod, John
J Ormerod
Curly Ormerod
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ormorod, J
Description
An account of the resource
4 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Omerod (b. 1922, 1694577 Royal air Force) DFM, his log book and correspondence. He completed a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Omerod and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-12
2017-02-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Tuesday the 7th of February 2017 and I’m in Rochdale with George er John Ormerod. 101 Squadron man. So John what are your earliest recollections of life?
JO: My earliest recollections. I can remember being, living in the house which was behind the grocer’s shop and therefore we had electricity which [pause] We lived behind the grocer’s shop and they had electricity and so therefore this house behind them where we lived also had electricity which in those days was, you know, for shops and all that kind of thing. Very few, you know, local houses had electricity. Very few. What? [pause]
CB: What did your father do?
JO: My father was a mule spinner in the cotton industry.
CB: And how many brothers and sisters did you have?
JO: I had two sisters.
CB: And where did you go to school?
JO: I went to school at Balderstone. Balderstone School. A Church of England school. I went there until I was fourteen and then after that the education was more or less three nights a week at night school and from there of course I started work as a, actually as a weaver on looms. Weaving. And from there I progressed into the engineering side of the, of the work and from there carried on learning engineering at night school. [pause] I can’t just —
CB: Okay. So you were born in 1922.
JO: That’s right.
CB: So the war started when you were sixteen.
JO: Yes. Around about.
CB: Seventeen.
JO: Yeah.
CB: What? You didn’t join the RAF then. Why not?
JO: Well of course we weren’t old enough in them days.
CB: Right.
JO: You had to be eighteen you know before you could but eventually when they were starting to recruit I decided I was going to get in and get in what I wanted and that was the RAF. So of course by pushing myself forward I managed to get in.
CB: Were you in a reserved occupation.
JO: [What for?]
CB: Because you were in engineering?
JO: No. Not really.
CB: Right. So why did you choose the RAF and not the army or the navy?
JO: It were just, just one of those things. You know. I preferred it to the others and it was the leading one as far as we were concerned where I lived, you know.
CB: What was the main attraction?
JO: The flying. That’s what I wanted to do. Not to be in the ranks you know. I wanted to be flying.
CB: Were you a fairly active youngster?
JO: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: Keen on sport?
JO: Football [laughs] at one time. We were always playing football.
CB: So you pushed, you said, to get into the RAF. Where did you join up?
JO: A place called Poynton. Somewhere near Preston I think it was.
[pause]
CB: And then what? What happened at Poynton when you got there?
JO: We were allocated out to the various training units and I forget now where it actually was. The training unit. I can’t just remember.
CB: So when is this? This is — we’re talking about when? 1940? ’41?
JO: Nineteen forty — I think it was the beginning of ’42 I think.
CB: Okay. And what trade did you decide you wanted to follow and did they respect that?
JO: Well I wanted to go into engineering. And I got on as a mechanic to start with and of course I went up to, you know, up in the ranks until eventually I got to a warrant officer.
CB: Right.
JO: In the engineering.
CB: Right.
JO: Became a flight engineer of course.
CB: So what, so you became a flight mechanic on the ground.
JO: Yes.
CB: To begin with. And at what stage did you then get to be trained for aircrew?
JO: I would say after about six or eight months. Something like that. I started on that. Of course spent the rest of the time in there as a flight engineer.
CB: Yes. Did you do, you were trained in ground mechanic as a flight mechanic.
JO: That’s, that’s correct.
CB: Where was that done?
JO: I don’t know again now.
CB: And then when you volunteered to fly they sent you to St Athan did they?
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Right. And what did you do there?
JO: Well we did the training actually at St Athan and, for the normal you know —
CB: For the ground trades as well?
JO: But then it was, it was such a big station they were training all sorts of trades there and I actually went back again. You know what I mean. I went as a mechanic and then I later went back later as a, [unclear] for a flight engineer.
CB: Oh right. So after you’d trained initially at St Athan as a flight mechanic where did they send you? You were posted to, was it a squadron or were you sent to something else?
JO: To be quite candid I don’t remember.
CB: Doesn’t matter.
JO: No.
CB: So St Athan. That was —
JO: I’m ninety four now you know.
CB: Yeah. Brilliant.
JO: It takes a lot of remembering.
CB: It does. So from St Athan the course was quite long was it? Some months.
JO: Yes. If I remember correctly it was something like six months you know. Something like that.
CB: And do you remember what the process was because an aeroplane is a complicated machine?
JO: Do I remember what?
CB: What the phases of the training at St Athan were.
JO: Oh they were all about the engines and that to start with.
CB: Right.
JO: And then of course when you started to get working on the engines and that it became learning about the rest of the aircraft.
CB: Okay.
JO: And eventually of course that was what got me onto being a flight engineer.
CB: Yeah. So you’d do engines. Then what? Because the other things would be —
JO: Well the theory of flight. All the rest of it. You know
CB: Right.
JO: So —
CB: Hydraulics?
JO: Hmmn?
CB: Hydraulics.
JO: Hydraulics yes. Pneumatics. The lot.
CB: And what about the electrical side?
JO: Oh yes. Aye. We had to do that and the batteries as well, you know. Working off the batteries. Talking about that I was once working out in India, you know, with the Lanc and it wasn’t made for those climates. And I always remember we were flying along and our eyes started to prickle and it was the batteries that were boiling. You know from —
CB: The heat.
JO: From being in too hot a climate. And we had to disconnect them. [laughs] Oh it was, it was a right, a right game was that. Another thing out there of course, out in India was we had to get on our way early because if you wanted to test your engines it got too warm so what happened later on in the day if you were going to take-off you had to take off without testing or anything. As you were starting the last engine up you were more or less on your way, you know, because otherwise the first engine you’d started had been boiling. [Would have been boiling off coolant?]. So we had to be very quick. No testing. Just get all the engines going as quick as possible and away smartly. Otherwise it were having to get up early to test it.
CB: Yeah.
JO: Very very early.
CB: Yeah. So how high did you have to go before the engines would settle down?
JO: Oh you could settle them at any height. Up to, I think, if I remember correctly, somewhere around about twenty eight thousand was the maximum but we used to fly somewhere around about the twenty, twenty two. [pause] With normal flying you’d fly about ten thousand.
CB: Yeah. Right. So back to St Athan some of the equipment on the Lancasters was getting complicated in that you had Gee, H2S and other more sophisticated items.
JO: Oh yes.
CB: How did they train you on those?
JO: Well we weren’t trained on that stuff. That was the wireless operator that had those. In charge of those. No. The engineer was just on more or less the engines and the operating equipment for ailerons you know and rudders and so forth.
CB: Hydraulics. Pneumatics.
JO: Hydraulics as well yeah for going down.
CB: So if an electrical fault was to appear.
JO: Yeah.
CB: How would that be dealt with?
JO: Well you more or less knew lots of bits and pieces. Put it that way. But not a master of any particular trade really. You had to be, you had to be one that knew a bit of everything otherwise you were no use at all, you know. And you’d to be one who could quickly, you know, understand what had happened.
CB: Yes.
JO: You know. Have sufficient knowledge to deal with it.
CB: So how could you? You talked about disconnecting batteries. How do you disconnect the batteries in flight?
JO: Oh well just —
CB: Where are the batteries?
JO: Pardon?
CB: Where were the batteries?
JO: The batteries were on the starboard side about halfway down the aircraft.
CB: Right. So you could isolate them.
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Did they have a switch to isolate or did you have to literally.
JO: No. You had to disconnect them manually.
CB: Disconnect them. Yeah. So the generators on the engines were creating enough power whilst you were flying.
JO: That’s right.
CB: Okay. So from St Athan where did you go then? Because you didn’t fly at St Athan did you?
JO: No. I didn’t fly at St Athan. No. I can’t remember now.
CB: So the next step would be the Heavy Conversion Unit.
JO: That’s right. We went, we went first on Halifaxes.
CB: Right.
JO: And then off the Halifaxes on to Lancasters.
CB: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
JO: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
JO: And then we were sent to 101 Squadron and I couldn’t remember exactly where that was at the time but we finished up in Ludford Magna.
CB: Yes. Just before that. When you went to the Heavy Conversion Unit the crew had already been formed at the Operational Conversion Unit hadn’t they?
JO: That’s right. They picked the engineer up the last.
CB: Yes. Now how did you get selected for your crew at HCU?
JO: Well it was a matter of getting talking around the room. All the crews with the engineers kind of thing. Got talking with Rusty and stayed with Rusty. We seemed to get on quite well together and he was satisfied with me so that was it more or less.
CB: Was the rest of the crew with him or were the pilots making the selection?
JO: Well the pilot was making the selection definitely but the crew were there, kind of thing.
CB: They were.
JO: But not taking any part in it really.
CB: So how were you introduced to them?
JO: Rusty just introduced me to them as far as I can remember. And, well we seemed to get on together right from the beginning and of course all the years through we all kept in contact with one another which I think is very surprising really. But we were so happy together I think that was the real reason and then of course we went through quite a great deal together really. You know. On our nerves. [laughs]
CB: So your initial experience of flying was at the HCU. So just before we get to the squadron what did you actually do at the Heavy Conversion Unit as a crew?
JO: Well we went off Halifaxes onto Lancasters and then of course we did a lot of cross country runs and everything so that the navigator could use his knowledge and er to show he was proficient at doing these things. And the wireless op of course with his job. And mine of course was seeing that the engines were okay.
CB: And you —
JO: And the main thing really with the engineer as far as the ordinary flying was to, well for all the crew, was to get those engines all in unison where if you didn’t you were getting like a hell of a lot of noise. And on a long trip, on say an eight hour trip or something like that, you know, you’d be shattered with the noise which was enough you know but if you got them humming away together then they lull you to sleep rather than anything.
CB: So how did you synchronise the engines then?
JO: Well first of all you’d synchronise the two on one side by looking through the props and when the props started to look to go back, backwards then you got them two in unison but then it was getting the other two in unison. But then trying to pair them up with the others, you know, so that you got all of them going, you know, similar.
CB: So what did you do to get them to do that because it’s visual but you are controlling something to do it? What is that?
JO: Throttles.
CB: Right.
JO: Yeah. Throttles when you push them backwards and forwards gives the extra revs and so forth and they used to have a gate on it where you pull it down and it could only go so far. Now you only lifted that gate in an emergency. You were taking off or something and one of the engines failed. You lifted it up and got the extra on the field to get up. You know. Only in an emergency like did you ever lift that.
CB: So the, you talked about starting off on Halifaxes.
JO: Yes.
CB: And were they on radial engines or were they on Merlins?
JO: No. They were on the ordinary engines really. The Merlin.
CB: They were on the Merlin. Right. So what was the difference from your point of view between the Halifax and the Lancaster?
JO: I don’t think there was that great a difference really. But of course in those days the preference was the Lancaster.
CB: The layout was different wasn’t it for the —
JO: You what?
CB: The layout inside.
JO: Oh yes. Oh yeah.
CB: For the engineer’s position.
JO: That’s right.
CB: So how different was that?
JO: Well the on the, on the ones are Lancasters. The panel was down on the right hand side behind the pilot on the starboard side. He sat on the —
CB: On the port side.
JO: On the port.
CB: Yeah.
JO: And me on the starboard and that were behind me on the panel. And if everything was running as it should do all the, all the pointers on the gauge pointed to 12 o’clock. All of them. That was when they were all running as they should do. So you just glanced and if there was one that wasn’t 12 o’clock, you know, it hit you right away.
CB: But are these the rev gauges or are they pressure gauges or what are they?
JO: Pressure gauges.
CB: Right.
JO: All the lot. All the gauges on each engine they were there. You know, one below the other but if any one of them wasn’t reading 12 o’clock or near enough 12 o’clock when you were flying there was something wrong so you just looked at the panel and automatically one were out. It showed straightaway.
CB: Now what documentation did you have to complete in a flight?
JO: Oh you did the normal stuff but you got the air miles per gallon. You worked with the navigator and worked it out. How many air miles you’d got for a gallon which was normally one point one air miles per gallon. If you beat that you were doing very well.
CB: It depended on the headwinds.
JO: Oh yes. Well that automatic, you know. In other words the wind’s going back with you and you were trying to go forwards. [laughs]
CB: Now there were quite a few tanks in the wings of the aircraft how did you work out the transfer of fuel between them?
JO: Well the outer ones they carried about just over a hundred gallons each. About. I think it was a hundred and thirteen gallons and that had to be pumped into number two tank.
CB: Which was where?
JO: That was the tank next to it coming in-board. So as soon as you had available space for it you pumped it into the number two which you ran off. Ran off number two.
CB: So going back to this documentation. You were logging the readings at what interval?
JO: At what?
CB: At what interval were you logging readings from your gauges and tanks?
JO: Well, you were, you were logging them in your mind all the time more or less but if you had to make any changes then you put it down on your log.
CB: Right. So the second tank is in the middle of the wing is it?
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Between the engines. And the main tank. Is it called the main tank? Is it?
JO: The main tank. The one nearest —
CB: What number’s that?
JO: Well it would be number one.
CB: Number one. Yeah.
JO: And that nearest to the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
JO: The fuselage.
CB: So where was the fuel being drained from first and was it the main tank and then you topped it up?
JO: You took, as far as I can remember all the fuel being taken to the engines was from number two.
CB: In the middle.
JO: Yeah.
CB: Right.
JO: And the number one filled number two up you know and of course the number three tank. A hundred and thirteen gallons was pumped in to number two.
CB: The one on the wing tip.
JO: Yeah.
CB: Right. Okay. So on a flight starting with take-off what would you be doing?
JO: What?
CB: In the aircraft.
JO: What?
CB: As your role. What would you be doing for take-off?
JO: Oh my role was to help the pilot. In some instances a pilot did like you to take over the throttles and like he’d say what he wanted you to do kind of thing but others would rather do it themselves. It just depended. You know.
CB: How did Rusty do this?
JO: Rusty. He did it himself. You used to follow him up kind of thing, just in case.
CB: Did you put your hand over his glove?
JO: Yeah. More or less.
CB: As he moved the throttles forward.
JO: That’s right.
CB: Yeah. And you talked earlier about going through the gate.
JO: Yeah.
CB: To do that you flick a bar out of the way do you and that enables you to go.
JO: Well it were like a piece of heavy wire.
CB: Yeah.
JO: Used to came out about a matter of about an inch and a quarter.
CB: Right.
JO: And what, that was like holding them and it couldn’t go any farther.
CB: Yeah.
JO: But if you wanted to go farther you had to lift that up to get that extra but if you used it it had to be reported because then you had to have a proper overhaul of the engines because they’d overgone what they should normally do.
CB: So on take-off how often would you need to go through the gate?
JO: Oh you wouldn’t. Never. Unless you really had to do if an engine failed or something like that and you needed the extra. Then you would do.
CB: So when you go through the gate what’s that doing with the engine? It’s doing something to create the power.
JO: It’s going over the normal power.
CB: How?
JO: Yeah.
CB: How is it doing that? Is it revs or is it boost? Or what is it?
JO: Well it‘s boost actually.
CB: Which is the supercharger.
JO: Yeah. That’s right.
CB: How many super —
JO: Plus four.
CB: Plus four. So that’s plus four atmospheric pressure. Four times atmospheric pressure is it?
JO: Yeah.
CB: Right. And did you have to do that occasionally?
JO: No, no. Normal speed like I say. It was only in emergency.
CB: Yeah. So on take-off you didn’t have, there wasn’t a second seat, you had a folding seat to sit on.
JO: That’s right. You leaned against it.
CB: You sat on that did you? Or were you standing?
JO: Well you leaned against it.
CB: On take-off.
JO: Yeah.
CB: Right.
JO: And used to have a bar across that you pulled out and you put your foot on it. I always thought it was a solid bar until one time we made a bad landing. My weight went against it properly and it just folded [laughs]. It was only a hollow, you know.
CB: A tube.
JO: Yeah. And as soon as it got all my full weight on it it just folded up and I finished up in front of the aircraft.
CB: Amazing. Just going back to synchronising the engines.
JO: Yeah.
CB: So revs, getting them right meant that the throttle position wasn’t necessarily the same for each engine. Is that right? Because you had different speeds.
JO: That’s true. That’s true.
CB: Were you also adjusting the pitch differently for each engine or not?
JO: No. No. That normally used you know as a normal setting. Well it did for everything really because you didn’t want messing about with two things on one prop. You know what I mean?
CB: How often did the engines play up?
JO: Oh. Very very seldom. Very seldom.
CB: So when you got to the squadron what happened then? 101 Squadron.
JO: 101 Squadron. Well we were the last. Engineers were the last to join the crew.
CB: At the HCU.
JO: Hmmn?
CB: You joined at the HCU.
JO: Yeah.
CB: Then you went. The whole crew. You went on to the squadron.
JO: That’s right.
CB: At Elsham Wolds.
JO: No. Ludford Magna.
CB: I meant Ludford Magna. Yes. Yeah. So in the squadron how many aircraft were there at that time?
JO: I have a feeling it was somewhere around about twenty two or twenty three aircraft.
CB: And what was the first raid?
JO: The first.
CB: The first op. Can you remember?
JO: No. I don’t know.
CB: Okay.
JO: My son has my logbook.
CB: Right. So, what you did. How many ops did you do altogether?
JO: Thirty one.
CB: Right. Why was it thirty one and not thirty?
JO: I’ve no idea. No idea whatsoever. No idea. But it finished up at thirty one.
CB: So in thirty one ops then some of them —
JO: There was some mix up at the end. What they did at the end they were starting to, they were doing some of the short ones over to France kind of thing you know and they were starting something of calling them a third of an op.
CB: Yeah.
JO: And it was only in this mix up at the end that like you had to do quite a distance to become a full op. Any road I don’t know what happened exactly but it was sorted anyhow. Each one became an op.
CB: Yeah. What were the most memorable ops you went on would you say?
JO: Well I suppose they were all memorable. They all, they all finished up with your nerves. [laughs]. I believe [pause] I don’t know who it was but one of the engineers he actually was down on the ground, well down on the floor in the aircraft scared to death. And of course they had to get him off the, the squadron right away. You know. Out of the way.
CB: What did they call that?
JO: Lack of moral fibre. LMF.
CB: What happened to him? Do you know?
JO: Oh they sent him off to be helped but he, funnily enough I always said to myself he wasn’t the kind of person to be doing the job. The ones that were doing that job kind of thing were [pause] they weren’t a master of any trade but they had a good knowledge of everything. Which, that were really what they had to have and but he, to me he should never have been in aircrew at all. To me he didn’t seem to mix. You know, he was an odd one out.
CB: In what way was he different?
JO: Well manliness and just generally he wasn’t that kind of person, you know. Too soft and that. Not a rough and ready kind of person.
CB: Was he highly educated or —
JO: No. I shouldn’t think so.
CB: But was he a very analytical person?
JO: We got, we got a bloke which we couldn’t, we couldn’t pronounce his name. We all called him Shenai. I think he was Indian.
CB: Called him what?
JO: Shenai.
CB: Shenai. Right.
JO: Yeah. But he was very well educated. Very very well educated and he was funny and all. Years after the war I’m walking through Manchester and going home from work and I turned to this bloke as he spoke and went past you know and he turned around and looked at me and finally we finished up walking back to one another and then I said, ‘Shenai.’ [laughs] And he came up. He was, he finished up on Sunderlands.
CB: Oh.
JO: He was a highly educated bloke. There were no doubt about it. And he went on the Sunderlands.
CB: And he was an engineer.
JO: An engineer. Yeah. Sunderland Flying Boats.
CB: Any other characters?
JO: Not as I can think of. No.
CB: Now what about raids themselves?
JO: Who? Raids.
CB: What, what significant ones stick in your mind?
JO: Well the Berlin ones were always when they were telling you where you were going to go you know. They pulled the curtain back and they’d say, ‘Well. The target for tonight,’ and they’d say, ‘Is the big city.’ Everything would go quiet because bombing Berlin — you can imagine. All the ack-ack guns that they could get from any part of Germany were around there to, to, you know, defend the capital which was funny really because they played ducks and drakes with one another. To get all their ack-ack to protect Berlin and then they’d go to that bombing the outer places. You know, other cities and when they got all the tackle moved to these other places then they started bombing Berlin again. You know it were just part of it. Part of the way they ran the war.
CB: Now in your plane you had the eighth man. The special operator.
JO: We had the special operator. Yeah.
CB: So who was he?
JO: Well he were called Ted Manners.
CB: And how did he fit in?
JO: He fitted in very well. Very well. We met, met his two daughters.
CB: After the war?
JO: Yes. After the war. Yeah.
CB: So what, what was he doing?
JO: He was monitoring all that he heard in German that was applicable to what, you know, what we were doing. Anything at all. Anything he could pick up at all he logged and then all of them from our squadron would later on, they’d be analysed you know and see if they could find anything out from what different ones had heard, you know.
CB: So where did he sit in the aircraft?
JO: He sat behind the wireless operator.
CB: That means behind the main spar.
JO: That’s right.
CB: And did he have a little cubby hole. What was it?
JO: Well more or less just a piece of panelling out from the side of the aircraft like the wireless op did, you know. The wireless op sat there and then he sat behind in the next corner.
CB: And was he screened off?
JO: No. Not screened off. Just —
CB: With a curtain?
JO: A divided position kind of. Partition.
CB: Right. And what equipment did he have?
JO: Well such, similar to the radio bloke. You know. The wireless op. I don’t know exactly.
CB: Yeah. And what was the difference in the look of the aircraft? What did it have on it for him?
JO: In what way?
CB: Well it had aerials did it?
JO: Oh it had. Yeah it had.
CB: And what were they?
JO: But when they were flying they had a trailing aerial.
CB: Oh.
JO: But that had to be pulled in and nine times of out ten they forgot and they lost parts of it by, you know, catching.
CB: Yeah.
JO: When they land but they had that trailing aerial that they worked on.
CB: And what fixtures were there in aerials on the aircraft?
JO: Just the, just the ordinary one. That were it. They could wind it back in, you know. That was —
CB: Yeah but then they have large aerial masts on the aircraft.
JO: Oh they had two special ones. I don’t know exactly how they worked.
CB: How big were they?
JO: A matter of about two foot. They’d two of them anyhow.
CB: So his role was to do what exactly?
JO: Well to log anything he heard appertaining to, well to anything really.
CB: Because he was a German speaker. That was the key wasn’t it?
JO: Oh yes. He could speak German. Yeah.
CB: Right. And what equipment did he have to use against the Germans?
JO: He didn’t use it against the Germans. He was just using it for logging. To sift out and find out anything about, you know, about what had been going on down below.
CB: Did he not have a jammer?
JO: No.
CB: Based on a microphone in the engines to broadcast.
JO: Well.
CB: Into the German night fighter.
JO: Actually nothing of that description was ever told to us you know. He probably had, you know. But I don’t know why but nearly all them fellows that were doing that was German Jews or something like that. And many times they didn’t just fit in. And one of them must have been for the other side because I remember them saying one of them had jumped out and he must have been, you know, not of ours. He must have been for them and somehow or other made his way.
CB: He deserted effectively.
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: On one of the raids. So if they were German speakers what were they doing with that? That was the logging you talked about.
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: But did they speak into their equipment?
JO: No. Not as I remember.
CB: Now thinking about accommodation on the airfield.
JO: Yeah.
CB: At Ludford Magna. Where were you accommodated?
JO: Well we were accommodated in Nissen huts.
CB: The whole crew.
JO: All the ordinary ones, you know. The ones that weren’t officers were stationed on one site and the officer material was in the officer’s mess and their living quarters.
CB: So the NC, was your crew a mixture or was it all NCOs?
JO: It was a mixture. Rusty was an officer. Alec. The navigator.
CB: The navigator.
JO: I was a warrant officer. Me. Made me up to a warrant officer.
CB: While you were still on the squadron?
JO: Hmmn.
CB: And the special ops man? So Ted Manners.
JO: Yeah.
CB: He was accommodated where?
JO: Well I think they were all accommodated together at one period but eventually of course they became part of the crew and was billeted with us you know but at the beginning they were all separate.
CB: How many crews would there be in a Nissen hut?
JO: Two. All down one side and all down the other you know like. Seven on one side. Seven on the other.
CB: And what about eating and enjoying yourself socially? How did that work on the airfield?
JO: Well again officer material all went to the officer’s mess and all the non-commissioned were in your sergeant’s mess
CB: And what happened in the sergeant’s mess?
JO: Well nothing much different at all.
CB: But it was for eating but was there a bar there or how did it work?
JO: Oh there was a bar. Yeah. Bar in the sergeant’s mess and one in the officer’s mess.
CB: And on the airfield did they run entertainments? How did that work?
JO: Entertainments. Yeah. They had various ones. And they had ones where the girls came in from the village. You know, for a dance or something like that.
CB: Where would that be on the airfield?
JO: That were, well it was the mess you know.
CB: Oh in was the mess was it?
JO: Yeah. I remember one time we lost seven aircraft in one night and when we came. When we landed to come back there was no breakfast for us. Nothing going on. All there was were a lot of girls weeping. They’d lost their boyfriends, you know and we were playing bloody hell we weren’t getting our breakfast. Oh I always remember that.
CB: So when you landed you’d always have a breakfast. What would that be?
JO: Oh the full breakfast you know.
CB: A good fry up.
JO: Oh yes. Definitely. Oh we did very well. And always when you were on ops you always had a good fry up before you went.
CB: And when you got back.
JO: Well same again. We did alright.
CB: So these girls were in a bad state because they were the people doing all the catering were they?
JO: That’s right. Yeah. But when we lost that seven one night. Seven aircraft. Of course all the girls had lost their boyfriends and oh.
CB: That was fifty six people.
JO: The station, the station were in a right — you see you never knew how many you’d lost because —
CB: No.
JO: As soon as they knew, they were, new crews were brought in and all the tables were full for breakfast again.
CB: That quickly.
JO: So that you never saw any empty tables. They had it all worked out. You know what I mean. Otherwise you’d have said, ‘Oh bloody hell.’ You know. Well they didn’t. They couldn’t do that because they filled them all.
CB: What was the loss rate of 101 Squadron compared with other squadrons?
JO: I believe it was very high actually in comparison. It was a special duty squadron. When we were flying I probably didn’t? you didn’t think of them as any different, you know. You just did the job as usual [coughs]. I was flying the Avro Yorks after the war. Lancasters during the war and then I was flying on the Avro York which was the first passenger carrying aircraft that was used after the war. You know the first one to be used and I was flying on the run out to Singapore carrying passengers. [pause] We used to do very well out of these VIPs. They always used to be wanting the prices of shares and all sorts and we had a wireless op who could take down commercial, commercial Morse. Well he couldn’t take it down. It came too fast but he could talk it. And he used to listen to it and he’d talk it and the navigator used to put it down in shorthand. And then of course they finished up sending a news-sheet around the aircraft, you know, for the passengers. And then of course when the passengers knew. Some of them would be on to us to get him to do this or get him to do that, you know. And we were always plenty of free drinks anywhere we stopped. [laughs]
CB: Going back to being on the squadron. What would you attribute the higher loss rate to be caused by?
JO: Well just by fighters. Ack-ack got some of them but fighters were the thing really.
CB: So what was it about your plane that attracted the fighters?
JO: Well the fighters nearly always used to try to come up from below because you couldn’t see down anywhere. Only from the tail. And then of course out of the pilot’s side and the engineer’s side they could look down on through that you know. On each side. But of course the pilot couldn’t really look through his side because of, you know, flying the aircraft. The engineer always had a good view of forward and to his starboard side. I always remember we had a crash in mid-air and the one who crashed into us of course with it’s propellers. It must have whipped the engines out. It went down through the clouds and that were the last we saw of him. But the, the damage was to the undercarriage but when I come to put them down, drop them to have a look actually speaking I wouldn’t do anything on the hydraulics until I had to do and then I dropped the undercarriage. And when I did I could see what looked like a pencil mark on the tyre and it was where this other aircraft, the props had gone through the engine nacelle and it had, it had cut the tyre. And I said to the skipper, I said, ‘When you land,’ I said. ‘Land on your starboard wheel.’ I said. ‘The other one,’ I said, ‘It’s flat.’ I said, ‘It’s cut.’ And of course he did do and when the, when the port side went down. Bloody hell it just went around in a circle did the aircraft. You know, nothing there really. Just the shape of the tyre.
CB: So in doing that did the undercarriage then collapse?
JO: No. I don’t think it did actually but we went, we used to have FIDO on our ‘drome and what happened was that we actually went over the top of it all and smashed it all up. You know.
CB: Lucky not to be set alight in that case.
JO: Yes. Aye.
CB: What did FIDO stand for?
JO: I can’t remember. No.
CB: It’s a fog dispersal.
JO: Oh was it?
CB: System isn’t it?
JO: Yeah.
CB: So how —
JO: Yeah, actually that, it were fantastic. It could be, it could have turned foggy down below you know but when they put this FIDO on it was three pipes down each side of the runway. Away from the runway. You know, quite a distance. They pumped this petrol it was like petrol that was suspect with water. Do you know what I mean? So it was like, had to be used up and when they used to light these three pipes down each side of the runway I always remember I only ever saw it once and we were up in the air and they were testing it and we, when we saw it come on it were fantastic. You couldn’t see so well you know, flying but you could see this down below. These flames, you know, and of course when you came down and entered this part it was as clear as a bell in that. It were like going into a big tunnel. Aye. Fantastic.
[pause]
CB: So you had to use it once.
JO: We only used it once but it was a way of getting them down safely you know. Aye. When you went down it was just like going into a tunnel. You could see the burning, you know, like and then when you entered it were just like the Mersey tunnel. You know. It cleared all that inside.
CB: Because the heat cleared the fog.
JO: Yeah. In the runway and it was like —
CB: But you could see it through the fog when you were flying above.
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Right.
JO: It was fantastic. They could always get you back in kind of thing.
CB: Yeah.
JO: Otherwise you’d have been flying blind, you know.
CB: So to what extent was it used by other squadrons at your airfield?
JO: Well I don’t know but it was probably were used on odd occasions you know with other squadrons. Well it would have to be, you know. If fog came down you know unexpectedly. I think it was the only one that had them.
CB: I was thinking of how there would be a traffic jam.
JO: [laughs]
CB: With all the aircraft coming down you see.
JO: Well there used to be a jam weather or not when we came back. We were given different heights to fly at and there was three aerodromes and the flying circle. We were all given different heights to fly and when he came to the centre of the triangle of three ‘dromes you’d to be at a certain height in the centre. When you’re flying you’d drop to another height on the outside of the circle just to keep everybody, you know, missing one another.
CB: This avoided collision.
JO: Yeah.
CB: So there must have been collisions occasionally. Or not.
JO: Or not. Not that I knew of.
CB: Right.
JO: No. No. They’d do that pretty good you know.
CB: You talked about the connection with the other aircraft and it cutting your tyre but what happened to the plane that was beneath you?
JO: Oh that went down. His propellers you see. Any damage to a propeller you just well it’d shake that much that it would rip it out of the wing.
CB: What happened to the aircraft immediately after that incident?
JO: Well of course we stopped in mid-air more or less until it chewed its way through. You know.
CB: So your plane chewed through the plane beneath.
JO: That’s right.
CB: What? Through the wing?
JO: No. No. They chewed at us with their propellers.
CB: Okay. Where else did they chew the aircraft?
JO: Underneath. That’s all.
CB: Just, no. No. Was it just that wheel?
JO: Just that one.
CB: Or elsewhere?
JO: Just that one nacelle with the wheel in it.
CB: Yeah. Right. Okay. But the engine continued running did it or did you have to shut it down?
JO: Oh no. The engines were alright. No, it was them like that would be in trouble.
CB: So what happened to him?
JO: It just went down through the cloud and that were it.
CB: Was it yours? Or —
JO: No. We, we stayed up.
CB: No. Was it your squadron? Or was it —
JO: Oh it was our squadron I believe.
CB: And did the plane, did they just jump out or did it explode? What happened to it?
JO: It just went through the clouds. We don’t know what happened. We never took, they never told us anything.
CB: No. I wondered if by coincidence you’d established what happened to the crew.
JO: Oh. No.
CB: So what was happening? You were flying straight and level were you?
JO: Yeah [pause] and this other one came underneath us.
CB: And was that because he was rising because of dropping his bombs or where in the —
JO: I don’t know how it happened really but it was so as he came across us and he cut the engine nacelle at the bottom.
CB: Yeah.
JO: Well it was where the undercarriage went in.
CB: Yeah.
JO: The nacelle and then his props would go, you know what I mean and then of course his engines. The main plane.
CB: So in the circumstance of losing a propeller what would happen to the aircraft?
JO: Oh well in the first place it’d, it’d rip the engine out of the main plane and well of course you’d be in trouble right away.
CB: Because the plane could fly on less than four engines. What could it fly on?
JO: It could fly on two. They reckon that if you used the overload that it could fly on one but you’d be coming down all the time you know. You wouldn’t have any choice of where you were going to land like. Really.
CB: So here you were flying. Was it towards the target or after you’d dropped your bombs?
JO: What?
CB: This incident.
JO: I can’t remember. I can’t remember.
CB: You would be standing behind the pilot at that time would you?
JO: No. I always stood to his right.
CB: You would. Right. And monitoring the gauges while you were at it.
JO: That’s right.
CB: What other incidents?
JO: We used to have Taffy and Alec. Alec was the navigator. Taffy was the wireless op. And many a time they used to get at loggerheads. Alec was a damned good navigator.
CB: Yes.
JO: And he used to say sometimes, he’d get information from London kind of thing and when he read it he just said, ‘Rubbish.’ In other words it wasn’t to what he’d calculated, you know. And anyhow him and Taffy, Taffy’d give him this thing and he’d say rubbish and Taffy would start arguing with him and then the skipper used to say to me, ‘Sort them.’ And I used to [yell?] at Taffy’s oxygen tube and I used to just disconnect it and when he started singing, “There’ll Be a Welcome in the Hillside,” [laughs] I used to put it back again and he didn’t know what had happened or anything. [laughs]
CB: So you’d say that was a distraction.
JO: [laughs] You know. Whatever like. You know. Rusty used to say, like, you know, ‘Sort it.’ Taffy would give Alec a wind or something what they’d sent and it wouldn’t be what he were getting and he’d just say, ‘Rubbish,’ you know and Taffy’d be saying, you know, ‘That’s what I got.’ You know. ‘That’s what I got.’ He’d say, ‘Well it‘s rubbish.’ [laughs]
CB: So we’ve talked about various crew members. What about the bomb aimer? What, what was he like?
JO: Who?
CB: The bomb aimer.
JO: The bomb aimer. Norman. Oh he was alright. Yeah.
CB: Because he was the one who was —
JO: He actually, I don’t know how it went but he was one who went over to Canada. Aircrew were at the front end of the aircraft. You know, they, they went to Canada, a lot of them to do their training.
CB: Oh originally.
JO: Yeah and [pause] Norman was one I think who was going for aircrew like and he I think he failed and that and finished as the bomb aimer.
CB: PNB. PNB.
JO: What?
CB: Pilot/navigator/bomb aimer.
JO: That’s right.
CB: That was the grouping. So he was originally trained in which?
JO: England.
CB: Yeah but, but in flying are you saying he was pilot trained to begin with but then moved to bomb aiming did he?
JO: Yeah. Aye. He failed so he went in. I was an engineer.
CB: Yeah.
JO: On the ground and finished up as flight engineer.
CB: And we haven’t talked about the gunners. So what did they do during your time in ops?
JO: Well they acted as the gunners but the rear gunner — I always remember they brought out a new turret. You see the ordinary turrets they were all Perspex.
CB: Yeah.
JO: With just slots where the guns could be lifted up and down and of course they could move the turret. You know what I mean. But the only place they could see was through the slots where the guns were because the other used to get frosted up. Well they started with another turret which was open. Open to, in fact the rear gunner he was the best of the lot if anything happened. He could just tumble out of his seat. Unfasten himself and tumble out of the back. So he was, he was alright you know. But this open turret of course didn’t get any frosting. Any frosting up and of course being out in the open like that he could see at any time.
CB: So did they like that?
JO: Hmmn?
CB: How well did they receive the idea of it being open?
JO: Well I just, they just accepted it but I do remember Harry, our rear gunner, he, what happened was his oxygen tube had a certain amount of condensation and it all froze and he got frostbite with it. But it, it didn’t happen very often but you see there were no other squadrons I don’t think that were using that rear turret like we did.
CB: And how often did they fire at other aircraft?
JO: Well normally speaking it was other aircraft that was doing it to us. Fighter aircraft were shooting at us rather than the opposite way around. We didn’t want to upset anybody.
CB: Right.
JO: We wanted to just go out there and bomb and come back and the fighters could only go out so far anyhow. You know, they couldn’t go past half their fuel, you know what I mean.
CB: The British fighters you mean.
JO: Aye. They couldn’t follow us very far because they had to get back again you know what I mean. So once it got to that distance we’d no cover at all, you know.
CB: So how often do you remember being attacked by German fighters?
JO: Oh we were very very lucky. I can only remember once and it, I don’t know why but whether he was short of fuel or what but he did the whats-its-name you know like the cheerio.
CB: Yeah.
JO: With the aircraft you know and left us and I think he’d no ammunition left or something. Or his petrol was down and he had to get back. And he just did that like.
CB: He hadn’t fired at you.
JO: Hmmn?
CB: He hadn’t fired at you first. Or had he?
JO: No. No. He hadn’t fired.
CB: He just came across you.
JO: But he was there you know.
CB: Yeah.
JO: And he just waved his wings and saying like — cheerio [laughs] But if you ever saw one we always used to say to all the others in the crew keep your eyes out on the opposite side you see. You know, if we were looking to port. We’d say like, ‘Keep your eye on starboard,’ you know, because often they used to show themselves. Acting the goat or something you know or doing something trying to attract your attraction so that the others could get in.
CB: They worked in pairs did they?
JO: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: So what evasive action did you have to take?
JO: Well there was, they used to call it corkscrew. It was a way of getting away with it you know but with a bomber you get a fighter and if you can time it at the correct time a fighter would, his guns and the bullets would be going together at about four hundred yards. You know, the guns were like pointing together and so that at four hundred yards if his bullets were hitting at four hundred yards it would rip it to pieces. But the [pause]
CB: So they’d close on you and fire at four hundred yards.
JO: Oh that’s right. Yeah. Now if you could time it at the correct time when they could, at four hundred yards, if you could manage to just start to turn before that time then the fighter’s going at such a speed —
CB: Yeah.
JO: If you start to turn he can’t get around with his guns and he starts to skid. You know he tries to do but he can never get them guns around to you.
CB: Right.
JO: And if it’s timed correctly he could do it all day with him. Let him get so far and then just start to turn but he was going so fast that he couldn’t bring himself around to get his guns on you.
CB: So who in the crew is making the call to the pilot to do the corkscrew?
JO: Well any member of the crew if he was the one who could see it was necessary, you know. The pilot would be ready to take anybody’s orders. You know. Usually it would be me mostly who would be up there with him and I’d be seeing the other side of the, you know, from what he was.
CB: So you are not in a seat and you are not strapped in. What happens to you?
JO: No. I’m standing. He’s sat in. In the pilot’s —
CB: Everybody else is strapped in but not you.
JO: No. Well I had to be free to be able to move anywhere if necessary.
CB: So how did the corkscrew work? It’s called by, let’s say the rear gunner. What does the pilot then do?
JO: Oh the pilot does this corkscrew whatever.
CB: But what is it?
JO: I don’t know exactly but it was a routine of if they had somebody on their tail kind of thing of getting the best way of getting rid of one.
CB: So he’s diving. So you go corkscrew left would be dive fast left.
JO: Yeah. Well he’d say that in the first place.
CB: That’s it.
JO: The one who was giving him the order would say, ‘When I tell you,’ you know, ‘dive port or starboard.’ You know what I mean?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JO: And so when it did happen he’d just be saying, ‘Dive. Dive. Dive,’ you know and of course the bloke had already got his own instructions which way you know.
CB: So how far would he go down? The pilot. Before he changed.
JO: What?
CB: Corkscrew.
JO: I’ve no idea.
CB: Because he’d got to get back hasn’t he? To where —
JO: Oh yeah.
CB: To the track.
JO: Yeah.
CB: That he was on in the first place.
JO: Probably stay at the same height more or less. You know. When he did it.
CB: Right.
JO: He wouldn’t be going down that far you know.
CB: Yeah but you had to practice this before going on ops didn’t you?
JO: Oh yes. He would. He would do. Yeah.
CB: But you were always standing up so for you it was a bit of a —
JO: I was standing up.
CB: You’d be holding on tight would you?
JO: I was standing up. The pilot was sat down. The navigator was sat down. Wireless op was sat down. Of course the gunners were sat up in their turrets.
CB: And the bomb aimer was always lying down was he?
JO: That’s right.
CB: Or was he in the turret at the front?
JO: He was in the turret in the front with his bomb aim.
CB: Right.
JO: His bomb aiming equipment. And he used to give the orders to the pilot. ‘Left. Left. Steady, hold it.’
CB: Yeah.
JO: You know and so on giving the instructions to be able to get his bombs in the correct place.
CB: So how often did the bomb aimer have difficulty in placing it and you’d have to go around again?
JO: Oh no. No. If you did that you were bloody well asking for it. I mean one aircraft going around turning back against all the others. No. No way. No. He’d be better to either go by and turn back, you know or go down and turn back. All them kind of things were automatic, you know.
CB: Just going back to this incident where you hit the other aircraft. What other dramatic events were there during ops for you?
JO: Nothing like that. Nothing else.
CB: What do you think Rusty’s view is of that incident?
JO: Well again Rusty, I mean I watched him. I actually saw on one occasion. I saw this wing. He couldn’t see very far many a time you know depending on the stars and everything.
CB: Because we’re in the dark.
JO: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JO: But I remember the wing just going under ours you know and I forget exactly but it was so as I couldn’t tell him to do anything. If I had said to him like, ‘Climb,’ you know and if I’d said anything to get him up or down well I’d have put ourselves in trouble you know with this other one nearby and I just had to let it go kind of thing. Hope for the best because it was in such a position that if one or the other moved you know from where they were, where they were going they weren’t going the same way. That was going like that. The other one was slightly —
CB: You were going across each other.
JO: Aye. Yeah.
CB: How far away was it from you? Up. Below you. Below was it?
JO: Pardon?
CB: Was it below you? You saw this wing.
JO: Yeah. Going under. Under us.
CB: Yeah.
JO: Going under us. Well he couldn’t go either up or down because if he went down you know your tail went up in the air. If the tail went up before the nose went down kind of thing or vice versa. You’d got to work everything out in your mind you know.
CB: And Rusty didn’t see this wing coming.
JO: Well Rusty is on his instruments and that keeping level flight and everything you know. So he’s watching his instruments all the time. Keeping level flight and all that kind of thing.
CB: Was this close to the target or some way away?
JO: I can’t tell you now.
CB: The reason I ask the question is because the next question is was there an autopilot on this aircraft?
JO: Oh there was an autopilot on. Yeah.
CB: But how often was that used?
JO: Well if you was in a position where you thought there was nothing there you know happening in that respect then you could put it on autopilot which they would do you know because keeping an aircraft handling, you know, all the time I mean it tires them out. I mean they’re holding against it and turning it and all this like kind of thing you know. And using petrol and things like that you know. You’ve got to decide which tanks to use and so forth you know to help the aircraft because if you had to trim the aircraft in any way like to keep the tail up you had to trim it to fly with it up, you know, like then you were creating.
CB: There would be more drag as a result.
JO: Harder to fly. You know what I mean. So you’d use more juice if you did that. So lots of things to think about all the time.
CB: So which part of the controls did the autopilot manage?
JO: Everything.
CB: The throttles as well.
JO: Oh not the throttles.
CB: No.
JO: No. No. But when you put it in autopilot it just did it for them you know and then if anything happened just knocked it out you know.
CB: If he moved the stick that would disconnect it immediately would it?
JO: Yeah. Oh aye. Just knock it off you know.
CB: So after this incident what, the two incidents, what did you talk to Rusty about? So one is when you, after you get back with a punctured tyre. Did you talk through what happened in that incident?
JO: Oh we talked in the air actually.
CB: Right.
JO: I dropped the undercarriage and I could see this like, like a pencil mark you know.
CB: Right through the tyre.
JO: On the tyre. This mark. And of course the thickness of the tyres and that they just look as normal. You know what I mean? And I just thought bloody hell you know it’s hit the engine, it’s in the nacelle that the wheel went up in. I think it, I think it’s actually caught it you know. And so I had to say like, ‘Try to land on your other wheel and watch it for when it drops,’ you know.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JO: Anyhow, I was right. When the other one did finally drop, when it went down, he couldn’t hold it any longer. We just went around in a circle.
CB: It bent the wing.
JO: Huh?
CB: Did it bend the wing or did the wing not hit the ground?
JO: Well we actually hit the pipes.
CB: Oh the FIDO.
JO: Yeah. We hit them.
CB: So you were lucky not to catch fire.
JO: Yeah. Very lucky.
CB: It went straight through did it? To the other side of the FIDO lines.
JO: More or less like kind of bounced over it.
CB: Oh right.
JO: And broke it.
CB: But the plane, the aircraft was flown again afterwards fairly quickly was it?
JO: Oh yeah.
CB: In the one where you’re flying and you see the other plane coming. How did you discuss that with Rusty? The pilot.
JO: Well he been looking forward just like, you know, I would. If anything was coming towards you it would have hit you before you knew what had happened. You know what I mean? It were that fast.
CB: Yes.
JO: You wouldn’t even see it. You would have just hit one another.
CB: So we’ve talked about those two things. Were there any instances where the plane went through extreme manoeuvres?
JO: There was one time when we were down at about four thousand feet I think it was and there was explosion down below and and it, what’s the name, it blew the aircraft in the air. There were no doubt about it. It nearly blew us over, you know, that —
CB: Did it actually turn over?
JO: No. No. No. No, it didn’t.
CB: But it blew it up in the end.
JO: It blew it out, aye, of its position, you know. I think it was the ammunition. An ammunition dump or something that had gone off.
CB: Oh right. On the ground.
JO: Yeah.
CB: What were you bombing that day?
JO: No idea. No idea.
CB: But it did, what did, the plane went up? Then what happened to it? Did it affect its flying?
JO: Oh no. It was alright, you know. It was okay but it really threw it out of its flight. You know what I mean.
CB: But it didn’t turn it over.
JO: No. Oh no.
CB: Do you know of any aircraft that were ever turned over in raids?
JO: No. I don’t. No. [pause] What time is it?
CB: Do you want a break?
JO: Twenty to.
CB: Yeah. We’ll finish shortly. So when you finished your tour what happened then?
JO: We just, we just stayed flying local you know. As far, as far as I remember.
CB: In your existing Lancasters?
JO: Yeah.
CB: But then you moved to something different.
JO: We moved to Ludford Magna.
CB: No. You were at Ludford Magna. So you’ve come to the end of —
JO: I can’t remember where we went to.
CB: But you sent you went to Yorks.
JO: Oh that.
CB: So that was Transport Command.
JO: Oh, Avro Yorks. Yeah.
CB: Was that immediately after that or did you go to something quite different first?
JO: No. No. We went to Yorks and we went on the Singapore run.
CB: Yeah. What squadron was that?
JO: I can’t remember now.
CB: Operating from?
JO: It was Transport Command then.
CB: Yeah. [pause] And from an engineer’s point of view how, what was that like compared with flying a Lancaster?
JO: Well for one thing you were carrying goods and you got to put the goods in certain positions so that as you use your petrol they kind of came more into balance you know.
CB: That was your job?
JO: Yeah. And sometimes even moving a load a little bit you know to try and get rid of that. Having to trim the aircraft.
CB: Now you had to calculate that.
JO: Yeah.
CB: Before loading.
JO: That’s right.
CB: Was that done with you and somebody else or was that your task exclusively?
JO: No. It was done with — I don’t know who it was actually but they always had a bloke there that did it and he’d be saying when you’ve used so much you’ll move this back. You know. Used to have levers to lever it and then fasten it down again you know.
CB: As you used fuel.
JO: Yeah.
CB: What sort of stuff are we talking about and what weight?
JO: What? In what way?
CB: What was the weight of the load?
JO: Well petrol was seven. Seven pounds a gallon I think it was.
CB: In weight.
JO: In weight.
CB: Yeah. But you were carrying petrol in cans were you?
JO: No.
CB: Or was it other things?
JO: No. No. Just in, just in the tanks.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
JO: They could actually carry overload tanks out on the wing.
CB: Oh.
JO: But it was very seldom done unless, you know, it was really necessary.
CB: Where were they secured?
JO: Well on a long, a real long distance you know.
CB: On the wing. Where would they be attached?
JO: Oh at the end of the wing and they used to drop them, you know.
CB: Oh I see. Right. [pause] So seven pounds a gallon.
JO: Seven pounds a gallon. Yeah. Roughly. Seven point something it were.
CB: What were you carrying?
JO: Oh two thousand gallons, two thousand.
CB: No. No. I meant, I meant the load. What was the load that you were transporting?
JO: Oh I don’t remember now. I can’t remember. No use saying I can [laughs]
CB: I’m just thinking of how you can move that around inside safely you see.
JO: Oh. Well it’s like bars made specially. What they get. We could get them and pull, you know other things one way or another. Pass them down.
CB: So this was still wartime. No. This is after the war.
JO: This was after the war.
CB: So between, yeah. Between your ops and going there what did you do?
JO: I’ve no idea.
CB: Did you go instructing somewhere?
JO: Probably. Although I didn’t do a great deal of that.
CB: So you were demobbed when?
JO: I couldn’t tell you.
CB: Okay. And what did you do after the war?
JO: I’m trying to think about the demob. I think it was somewhere around ‘46 I think.
CB: And then after the war you returned home.
JO: That’s right.
CB: So you’re a warrant officer.
JO: Yeah. Talking about that I always remember a bloke called MacDonald. A pilot. And he, he’d been a butcher’s errand boy when he joined up and he finished up as a flight lieutenant pilot. He said, ‘What do I when I go back?’ He said. You know. In other words like how he’d gone up in the world and that and of course he said there’d be pilots but there’d be ten pilots for every one that was wanted you know. It must have been funny for a lot of them mustn’t it?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JO: A butcher’s boy and finishes up like a squadron leader or something.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JO: And then he goes back in to Civvy Street. What does he do?
CB: I’m going to stop there just for a mo.
JO: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: Carry on then. So the war is over.
JO: Yeah.
CB: What did you do then?
JO: I went —
Other: Hello.
CB: Oh we’ll just stop for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: Yeah. So the war finished and you’re a warrant officer without a job.
JO: I’m trying to think. I went bus conducting. I know that. To start with. And then I went bus driving. You know my mind’s not working at all. Mind you I’m ninety four now [laughs]
CB: You got tired of that.
JO: I can’t remember. You know. My brain’s gone dead.
CB: That’s alright.
JO: My brain’s gone dead.
CB: We’ll stop. Thank you very much indeed.
JO: Yeah.
CB: I really appreciate it.
JO: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
JO: Well yeah they more or less were you know.
CB: So the searchlights you got. Did you get caught very often?
JO: Well occasionally you did but you always, I mean, I know it’s a rotten thing to say but anybody down below them you flew over the top to hand the flare on to them.
CB: Yeah.
JO: You know.
CB: Yeah.
JO: The light.
CB: Yeah.
JO: That was on to you. You’d fly over somebody else and hand it over to them. As soon as you saw it going onto them you’d turn fast, you know, out of the way
CB: Yeah.
JO: On to them and they’d stay on the one below? you know.
CB: So when you turned but you changed height as well? Is that where you used the corkscrew?
JO: Oh no. You didn’t use that for that. But that, that was what you did as far as, you know, getting rid of it that way. Fun and games.
CB: So if you were in for how long did you say?
JO: What?
CB: If you were caught in the light how long did you have to get out?
JO: Well more or less the guns were on you as the light was on you. I think they followed one another, you know as the guns were following the light, the searchlight. You know. I think there must have been something like that between them.
CB: Yeah. Well you knew how long it took a shell to get from there to you.
JO: [laughs] Something and nothing.
CB: Did you come back with much flak damage on the aircraft?
JO: Oh little bits. Sometimes you’d hear it like rain.
CB: Oh.
JO: You know. Catching. Just catching you but the thing were if it went in to your air intakes or anything like that. Then you were in trouble with one engine or whatever you know. No. A lot was lady luck. You know. We were there at the right time. You know what I mean.
CB: What was the ground crew’s reaction to bending their aeroplane?
JO: Oh, [unclear] they loved their aeroplane and they loved their crew more. You know. They were very very good the ground crew.
CB: Were they?
JO: Yeah. And anything had happened to the aircraft well you know on a trip oh they were on the job rightaway fixing it up. Making sure you were ready for the next one if necessary. You know.
CB: Yeah
JO: Aye they were good.
CB: Did the chiefy come out drinking with you?
JO: Yeah. Well we used to drink on camp really mostly.
CB: Yeah.
JO: Only on odd occasions did we get, we got down in the village you know but actually going somewhere proper you know. No. We did it all in the village. In fact the group captain once, I forget now where he was, whether it was in the mess but he, he more or less said you could spout as much as you like in a Lanc in the camp but when you go down anywhere else you know keep your mouth shut. Somebody had said something he shouldn’t have, you know. Mind you when you get some beer down you it’s surprising what can happen.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. And how often did you get leave?
JO: I think it was something like about once every three months or so as I remember it.
CB: But when you went out what did you, they took you in a truck or did somebody have a car that took everybody?
JO: Oh no. Mostly a truck you know. A truck into town.
CB: How did you meet your wife? After the war that was was it?
JO: No. Well it was in a way but her brother was with me. He was in the RAF and he came, he came to my home for a weekend and then when I went over to theirs he had a girlfriend and of course I was at a loose end and they were going dancing at the Palais at Bolton and he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Go with our kid. You’ll be alright.’ You know. So I asked her, I said, ‘Would you like to go to the Palais like, with us?’ And she said she would.
CB: This is Doris.
JO: Yeah. And it finished up of course that we got going together then from there and eventually got married
CB: When was that?
JO: Oh I’m trying to think. 1942 would it be?
CB: 1946.
JO: ’46. ‘46. Happy days
CB: Yes. Good. Thank you very much. Really good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Ormerod
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-07
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AOrmorodJ170207
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
John Ormerod left school at 14 and worked in the textile industry before he volunteered for RAF. At first he trained as flight mechanic but later remustered to be a flight engineer. He talks about synchronising props and the German speaking eighth man special operator with 101 Squadron. He discusses the losses on his squadron and a crash landing with damaged undercarriage after a mid-air collision with another aircraft. He also discusses other members of his crew, one man's reaction to a lack of oxygen, and the corkscrew manoeuvre. He flew on flights with Transport Command to the Far East after the war.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Singapore
Wales--Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:35:36 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
101 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
entertainment
FIDO
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
mess
mid-air collision
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
pilot
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
training
wireless operator
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/8839/PFraserDK1607.1.jpg
828f411fd5d597dfada38965fb175eb1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/8839/AFraserDK161104.1.mp3
fee1470852ea916db2fe36f9a192f8dd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fraser, Donald Keith
D K Fraser
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fraser, DK
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Donald Keith Fraser DFM (1924 - 2022, 1566621 Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, photographs and service material. The collection also contains an interview with Sylvia Fraser, his wife. He flew a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 101 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald Keith Fraser and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the fourth of November two thousand and sixteen and we’re with Donald Fraser in Whitchurch in Shropshire to talk about his life and times particularly in the RAF. So, Donald what are the first things that you remember in life?
DF: I was born on the twenty fourth of August 1923, at a small place in Fifeshire called Kincardine-on-Forth. We stayed there, my Father was a gamekeeper along with two of his brothers who had come through the First World War and they took on game keeping as their career afterwards. We were there for two years and moved from there, he got, he had head keepers in an estate in Fifeshire, Moray estates, in order to earn more money and he was head forester there. Unfortunately, he was killed by lightning and I was six-year-old, the family at that time was, I had an older brother and sister and the younger two sisters, so there was five in the family, and he was killed on January the tenth, roundabout there, it be 1911 or something, which meant that, it was sad for the family because at that time there wasn’t the same facilities to get at that time. So, Moray estates were very good, they gave my Mother a house in Aberdour, and she stayed there all her life, but it meant [emphasis] that at the age of eight I used to deliver milk in the mornings [laughs] horse, horse and cart and the same in the evenings, in the summer time, and then when I became eleven, I could no longer do that by the same horse and cart, so I joined the cooperative who delivered the milk at half past six in the morning, so I still had time to do delivery before we went to school, and at weekends we used to do delivering groceries and that for the coop, they also, it was interesting because we were in the, the scouts at that time, and the scout leader was a Mr Fisk who had a large house in Aberdour, and he used to invite some of the scouts to go down in the evenings and weekends to do work in his garden. We got four pence an hour it was in old money, four pence an hour and we got that when we’d enough money to make a pound, which took about sixty hours to get a pound. [laughs] So, I joined school going to Aberdour school, and then at the age of eleven, it was two schools, there was Dunfermline school which if you were taking languages you went there, if not you went to tech log school at Burntisland, one was seven miles away to the west and then it was four miles to the east, so we went there and that. I enjoyed school, school was good and I was usually first or second in the class on maths and technical subjects all the time I was at school, however the school people wanted us to go onto university but that wasn’t on [unclear] so I applied, the situation at that time was very similar to it is now, there wasn’t many applications, there wasn’t many jobs available but I was interested in forestry and trees, and also in mechanics, so I applied to a company in Kirkcaldy to see if there was a vacancy in mechanics, there wasn’t, but I also applied to Moray estates and there was a vacancy as a forestry personnel on the estate, so I took that up and of course I stayed there until I joined the RAF. It was interesting and just what I wanted to do and the staff there was two older men who had a lot of knowledge in forestry and they gave us a good insight onto what was happening, and Moray estates it was just on the south, [laughs] north side of the Firth of Forth, and there they had Donibristle House which was always kept fully organised in case they ever wanted to come back there, they only came once or twice a year but all the staff was there all the time, St Colme’s House where all the information was kept on the estate, and in Aberdour opposite the only really good hotel was the large entrance to the [pause] driveway into the estate itself, marvellous entrance for that and it still stands today and that, so that was that
[Tascam noise]
DF: My, because of my age I was a little bit in front of the other people and I went to school that sort of, almost a year earlier which meant that to join the forces, all the ones I was with, was leaving early because I was that little bit, my brother was eighteen months older than me and I was in the same class as him, and so the time came and we were all leaving to go to the forces whatever it was and people used to start asking, ‘why aren’t you going?’ you know, [laughs] not realising we were younger at the time. So, I volunteered for flying duties with the RAF and had the usual examinations and such, I was given the opportunity to start training as a flight engineer because of my, what I said, my mechanical interests, and that was in 19, July 1942. Again, we, our first call on joining was Blackpool, we went to Blackpool and there we stayed for almost a year because we done the mechanics course and then we carried on to be a fitter’s course. Blackpool was a marvellous place to be, really is, the tower was still open and so was the Winter Gardens they were still open at that time, and lower floors not the top floors and so it was interesting to be there. We used to have bath nights twice a year, I think there was about ten thousand RAF people there at the time, and twice a week you had to come in the evenings and join up to go in for a bath or it was a shower in fact, and that happened twice a week from all the different site places in there, and to get to the baths, and it was one of these quick things, in and out [laughs] and that, and we were stationed Montague Street which was in the south, south shore, and we used to do our training at the [pause]
SF: Amusement, amusement park
DF: At the amusement park which is still there today, and we used to do all the training in there, and we used to go by buses from there, out to a small airfield south of Blackpool, which had been [unclear] been turned into areas for training, and we done our training there, and we used to be run back morning and night, on buses, and the landlady was foreign in our house, and she had to supply our breakfast and an evening meal and they were very good, and they used to make me with the same landlady for a year, so we must have done something right. [pause] After Blackpool we went to St Athans to do our flight engineers course, which was supposed to be a six weeks course. When we got there, we were told it was a two weeks course because they were so short of engineers, they had to put us through, so we were doing a twelve-hour day, and it only took a fortnight to get through that, but and then we went to Lindholme, and when we reached Lindholme there were only one aircraft and that wasn’t a Lancaster it was a Halifax, that’s the only time we’d seen or been inside the aircraft. So, we reached Lindholme our crew was already there and they’d been there for quite some time, to go through the usual rules and regulations to be able to fly the heavy aircraft, and we were crewed up with a WL Evans crew, and I remember him, a way of obtaining these people, engineers and all that was everybody was put in a room and there was the pilots there because it was the engineers they were looking for, and the engineers was a case of, you like me and such like, well it must have been that their eyes met and I think that was how [laughs] we joined their crew, in fact he said that he was given instructions from his crew that he had to be back but he had to be bringing a Scottish person back [laughs] and then we done, I had done five hours, five hours flying time when we reached the squadron, 101 Squadron and that was mid-July 1943. Unfortunately, on the way between the, there was two crews with the name of Evans going to the 101 Squadron at the same time, there were sixty crews going but two of them had the name of Evans, AH Evans and WL Evans, and when we reached the squadron, I for some unknown reason was crewed with AH Evans instead of WL, and they asked what we wanted to do and we hadn’t done any flying so it didn’t matter, after a little we said we’ll just leave it and we’ll go with AH Evans, but the other pilot Wally Evans said, ‘no that’s not your, you’re our crew, and you are going to be flying with us,’ so that’s changing all the paperwork, and that’s what happened
[laughter]
DF: We went on our first and second operation the two, the two crews together and the third one we came back but they didn’t, [pause] and that was more or less, I don’t know how you, how you take that, but it was luck or what it was but we are still here today and the other crew, that was how close it was you know, these days, and we stayed on at Ludford, it took us from July forty three until March forty four to do our tour of ops, thirty operations. Now, do you want anything on, on the operations itself?
CB: Yes, what, the useful thing is to know how the crew gelled?
DF: Oh yeah
CB: How you worked and what ever happened on your operations, because thirty is a lot of operations to have done
DF: It is a lot yeah, but well, somehow we were a very good crew, we all gelled together and I never had a glass of beer all the time I was on the station, I said, I not gonna drink at all until we’re finished, funny enough our bomb aimer was the same, he said he wouldn’t drink, so the two of us, the two of us were non-drinkers, but we decided that if we were going to get through we had to work as a team and a certain thing in any team, you’ve got your medal man, whatever you want to call them, and we decided that we should have somebody that could take over the pilots job, somebody could take over the engineer’s and the wireless operator was the difficult one because it was one of these ones that you didn’t get many people who knew the wireless operators job anyway. So, it was decided that the inflight engineer, I would do as far as I could get training, and that’s where we’re talking about the link training, get training on that and so we could fly the aircraft and bring it in if necessary, only, the bomb aimer had started as a navigator but he was ill for a time so he come off that and he came back in as a bomb aimer, so he had the basic treatment and that, on navigation somewhere, he decided that he’d be the one that would take over the navigation. The gunners that didn’t partake as far as the flying the aircraft, well they were surplus to requirement, [laughs] and the bomb aimer also took over the engineer’s job if necessary so we had a people who could switch from one to the other, to keep the, as far as possible, and it worked, it worked very well really, we done a lot of training, I don’t know what the training is, done training and that and everybody, we done what was necessary, we used to when we went to the briefing, we normally, we went there and after the briefing the navigator and that went to do their necessary things, but asked that we went along with them so as we knew the route, and if it was possible on a very clear night, if there’s any objects that we could give as information to, to the crews, there was a navigator such as a right bend on the river was at an angle, something that was obvious you could find out, you used to say well we are just passing so and so now which gave a little bit in the occasion we were on line, where we were and that helped us I think. The other thing was, we decided that we were not there to shoot down fighters, our job was to get to the target and back again, so our gunners was not to fire unless they were being fired on, and during a complete tour never once did our gunners fire at anything for all the thirty operations. We had some narrow escapes, I think the, which we would call part trips which meant we got them back again without any difficulty and we had probably half a dozen raids, other ones would probably get shot up going over, actually we done twelve operations to Berlin out of thirty so we had a good go at the Germans on this, and to most people that was the most dangerous target to be on, especially for the time and all that, but we found that if we could keep putting in the middle of the formation we were safe, it was the stragglers that got out to the side were surely caught by the fighters or the Ack Ack. On many occasions we had one or two big holes in us but not to do a lot of damage, I think it was on our twelfth operation and we ended up in a large thunderstorm and of course you had to go through them, you couldn’t dive out from it and that, you had to go straight through, and at one time we were at twenty thousand feet, the next minute we were down to about four thousand that was how the, the affected us, and round the, inside the aircraft was all the little electric jumping across from side to side and that, and it was quite difficult the fact that it took the two of us, myself and the pilot, to pull us out of the dive we got in, but we managed it about four thousand feet, that was one of the not so nice times. On our twenty first, again to Berlin, we got hit just going into the target by Ack Ack, we had a fire in our starboard inner engine and all our communications went. One of my jobs was to always look out, out for the gunners and if you’re looking back through the aircraft you could see if the guns were working or not, and this time the mid upper guns wasn’t, it was just silent and just lying in the one situation, so I decided after I looked over at the engines, switched off the engine and that, to go back and see what was happening. So, on the way through I collected a portable oxygen bottle and my torch, went back and as I went past the navigator, not the navigator, the wireless operator, I gave him a touch and pointed back, he came back with us and as we reached the middle of the aircraft, here was our upper gunner just get his hands on the rear door, he was just going out without any parachute or any at all, so it seemed to make a lot of sense and took the two of us up all our time to manage to stop him so, getting the door open, however we did and we got him onto the rest bed in the aircraft and he was okay after that, although he was off ops the next morning, he just disappeared from the station, that was one of the bad nights. The other, very bad one I think was, we were caught, it was the seventeenth of December 1943, it was again [laughs] Berlin and this was supposed to be the easiest flight that we’d ever have, [unclear] the weather was just right, there was a heavy fog over the Netherlands, and when we got to Berlin there was just a nice opening where we could drop bombs, turn and come straight back, so it was a straight in and straight out, which meant of course you only got fuel to do that, so it was I think it was a six inch, six hour trip, which meant thirteen, fourteen gallons of fuel, they hadn’t given you any leeway at all. Anyway, when we started off, when we got to the Dutch coast it was bright moonlight
CB: Ah
DF: And instead of fighters, the air fighters mainly on the ground, were all flying, and I think going out to Berlin there was about fifty aircraft that was shot down, we got to, near Berlin and the weather was thick, completely different to what we’d been told, anyway we bombed and on the way back we had a contact from base saying, ‘we were under thick fog, all United Kingdom, east coast was under thick fog, make your way north to Hull,’ didn’t tell us where to go in Hull, just make your way north to Hull, which we did, and the, as we were going along the bomb aimer shouted out, ‘look out I just passed a barrage balloon.’ So, we thought at first that they’d forgot to take them down, so we decided we’d better go inland off the coast in case there’s any more high up still on the coast line, so we turned round and luckily these beacons, controlled beacons, there was two in that area and one of them came on and said, ‘we’ve found you, we know where you are but we can’t see you,’ and the other one said, ‘well, you must be very close to us because you’re very loud, do you want us to put up a searchlight?’ We reported and said, ‘that would be good,’ which they did, but instead of going up in the air it went along the ground, and the first thing the pilot and myself saw was a double storied farm building just in front of us and it must have been just one of these things that happened. So, the, it meant that we were in a few feet of the ground, so it was, in fact it took the two of us to pull, luckily, we were running with a control booster on, normally you wouldn’t if you’re trying to save fuel you wouldn’t, but for some unknown reason I had it on and the aircraft didn’t splutter it just gradually went up and we managed it just like taking a horse over a high jump, managed to just get it over, and the report from the, the rear gunner and this was afterwards not at the time, he had written for some other booklet they was, but he saw, because he was looking back instead of above, what he saw was chickens running from the coop [laughs] in the farmyard [laughs]
[laughter]
DF: And he was pressed over his guns because of the building up [laughter] and we caught our rear wheel on the gate as we were, [laughs] we went through so we decided that we knew then how high we were
[laughter]
DF: So, we decided we’d go back to base rather than play around because we’d probably pick up some better information there, probably get a lucky break, so we went back again and as we’re going along the bomb aimer shouted out, ‘oh I’ve found a, I’ve found the café that we usually go for a coffee in the mornings,’ so that was good, they said well your just, just below us, so we thought well if we turn we’ll get on to the outer ring of the lights, you know, about three miles out we were of the outer ring and airfield, so we got there but flying then about two, two hundred feet but there, the airfield was so close that they were overlapping
CB: Yeah, yeah
DF: So, we came round here thinking we were going to go into our own airfield, somehow we missed that and we kept on and the, we landed in the end at Wickenby, so we landed, we couldn’t ask permission to land, we landed, we thought we were on our own field, the people said, ‘you haven’t landed here where are you?’ You know, so we both looked at each other and thought we’re on the ground aren’t we, [laughs] and then we heard a second voice come on saying, ’this is Wickenby we think somethings landed on our airfield, we can’t see you the fogs so thick, stay where you are and we’ll be with you sometime when we can pick you up,’ and about half an hour later they came and we were on their ground, we got a nights, had some, what do you call it? [pause] meal at that time and we stayed the night there.
[paper rustling]
DF: In the morning [inaudible] tea, got mess there or something. We had a few holes but not too bad so we decided we’d be alright and safe to take it home to Ludford, anyway we tried to start the engines up, they did, they started up, they ran for about anything from two or three minutes and then they all one by one they faded away that was
[unclear whispering]
DF: End up there, [unclear] anyway that was the worst one I think, after that I don’t think we had many bad ones but the case may as you say we had good ones but in that case some bad ones. So, we finished our tour of operations in March 1944 and we’d done our thirty operations, in fact we’d done thirty-one, one was taken as an abortion but we had dropped our bombs on an air plant in Belgium and after when I looked at our operations I decided that would count as one, so if we hadn’t have been counted we had to make the thirty up, we’d have been on the Nuremburg one the following night, so we were lucky. [pause] The crews just, we just parted at that time and until the end of the war we hadn’t any contact with each other at all, but that’s another story, we did find out for some of the crew the time afterwards. But, anyway I was posted to Lindholme to do instructing, but before starting that I went on an instructors course and got an A1 pass, and I went back there, and that were just before D Day and at that time we didn’t know what was happening, but all the, these aircraft that were used for training on was bombed up, but there was only two people as a crew, pilot and engineer, we didn’t know what it was about, and the two of us that was on the crew was, we found out afterwards, that if anything had gone wrong on the landings, that these aircraft would have been used to drop their bombs on whatever was necessary at that time and it was said that we’d have to drop out, bail out before any plane whatever it was necessary, and coming out before it hit the ground, obviously I don’t think we’d have survived, anyway, you wouldn’t survive at two thousand feet, but that was what was happening at that time, luckily it wasn’t necessary, so we didn’t, didn’t go, the bomb was unloaded later on. And, then we, then moved from Lindholme to Cottesmore, no sorry, Bottesford, Bottesford first, and this was August 1943, and as I said before, I was twenty one on the twenty first of August, and we’d just been there for a week and this was our first night out, we decided to have a run round and see what the countryside was like and there was three of us who went that time there was a Jack Molton who up until a few years ago, we were still met each other up, and another person from Scotland he was Jock, Jock Wright, and when we got to Bottesford we were just on, just off the A1 road, and when we got down to, on the main road we decided to, instead of going left to Newark where you go right to Sleaford it took us, so we travelled along there for three or four miles and there was a sign to Marston on the left hand side, well there wasn’t a sign it was just a road in there, and we decided to go down there, and that’s where we made it down to a little place called Marston and there was a pub just on the corner, and that was the first drink I had from joining the RAF, [pause] and after that we seemed to make that our common meeting place. Bottesford was a nice easy going place compared with what we had just been through, and enjoyed our time there training up the other people coming through, and of course VE Day came at the same time we were there, and I was at Buckingham Palace on VE day in London receiving a medal, it was, went down on, my Mother and sister, and my sister Jane they, they came down from Scotland, I met them on the train at Grantham and we went into London, and I think I remember eleven o’clock was the time when we, it was the King at that time of course and everything was over by, just after lunchtime, but my first time in London was [laughs] all in happy moods and that, and my Mother and them stayed in London because we were booked in for that night and I came home on the train late, must have been early evening, back to Grantham and Sylvie was going to meet me there on a bike, but what, what happened is that Marston was a mile off the main road and then you had the main A1 road to London, London that way and north that way, and she was going to bring the bike and pick me up at the end of the lane, anyway she’d asked somebody who worked in Grantham if they had seen an airman walking, and they said no, there wasn’t any airman, and she’d seen one of the lorries with the back open and quite a lot of airmen on it and when they passed her they gave her a normal wave and all this, you know, so she thought that I had got the transport to road end was going home to Bottesford to change and then come back down again, so she came back home, but half an hour, three quarters of an hour after that, her sister get when she was looking out the window said, ‘oh Jock’s,’ I was Jock at that time, ‘Jocks coming down the road there, Sylvie, Jocks coming down the road there,’ and she said, ‘no [emphasis] he can’t be,’ it was, I’d walked all the way from Grantham. [laughs] That was VE day
CB: Right, let’s stop there for a mo.
[interview paused]
CB: Now Donald as you were 101 Squadron, then you were the eighth, you had the eighth man, so who was he and what did he do and how did you link with him?
DF: Yes, our eighth man was part of the crew, he joined us on the first night that ABC was being used, I’ll have to come back to his name
CB: Yeah
DF: But he, he sat just behind the navigator on the Lanc where normally would be the bed for people getting injured and that, and his place was there, and he worked from there, he was just one of the crew, that’s all, we, we had using his [pause]
CB: So, ABC stood for?
DF: ABC
CB: Airborne Cigar
DF: Airborne Cigar
CB: Yeah
DF: Yes, that’s right and
CB: His job, what was his role?
DF: His role was to jam the German night fighters from contact with the ground with instructions, and he done this by jamming on a certain band, outside on the Lancaster was two long spikes, down the way, one in front of the aircraft and one halfway down, and this was his means of contact, and he jammed night fighters, he could speak a little bit of German but he could understand German, and he just jammed the night fighters from that. Unfortunately, by doing that he left the aircraft, the one he was on, the aircraft so they could be contacted by the German fighters that wasn’t involved in that time, and I would, probably the heaviest losses of Bomber Command
CB: Because, in essence, his transmission created a magnet for the night fighter
DF: That’s right
CB: Which was able to lock onto it, was that right?
DF: Yes, they could lock on to us, but we, we were, say on a squadron with twenty-one aircraft on that night, and got the time going through the clouds, save us twenty minutes would be all going well, on 101 Squadron, every minute along the route of covering
CB: Oh right
DF: Of covering the band going to the target, didn’t always work that way because you can’t get people to navigate to that degree in that night, but that was the obvious thing, it was to cover the whole time that they were in the air, and afterwards of course, the squad er, Bomber Command didn’t fly without 101 being there, so we, we had to do a lot more raids and operations than the other squadrons to keep that
CB: And, it was because it was so easy to detect a 101 Squadron Lancaster, that the losses were higher, is that what you’re saying?
DF: That’s right
CB: Right
DF: Much higher than
CB: Now, what did he actually do?
DF: What did he do?
CB: Hmm
DF: He listened for the German ground crews contacting their air fighters, and he jammed that by using the noise from the engines to do it, and he just jammed the
CB: So, there was a microphone in one of the engines, which one was that?
DF: The starboard inner I think it was, and that’s, so that’s what happened, [laughs] but it worked very well for a time and then of course like everything else it, well [emphasis] it was used throughout the war even on VE Day and all that was used, but generally speaking it done some good at times
CB: So, as the flight engineer, you had other things to look after that were electronic, what about your rear scanning detector Monica, how, what did that do and what did you do about it?
DF: Well, we didn’t have Monica on 101, they talked about it and decided that it wasn’t for 101 they would rather be without it, rightly or wrongly but that was, we had the usual, the others, the usual ones that, what do you call it? the little six-inch strips of metal
CB: Oh yeah
DF: [inaudible]
CB: Oh yeah so you had Window
DF: We had Window
CB: And you had H2S or not?
DF: We had H2S, yes
CB: But no other detectors?
DF: No, not really
CB: Right, because Monica had the same problem
DF: That’s right
CB: Of identifying you and that’s why they didn’t want it, was it?
DF: That’s why we didn’t have enough to carry on with
CB: So, just quickly with your special ops man, how, where, was, how did he integrate with the crew and where was he accommodated?
DF: He was accommodated in a little cubby, coming down here, that’s your navigator, here was the wireless operator, he was the next one down there just in there, same as they had, just a desk and that in there, and that was where, on most of the aircraft, was the bed, the, what do you call the bed now?
CB: Yeah
DF: The resting bed
CB: The resting bed
DF: Was there, so it was taken out and his little cubby hole was put in there
CB: Right. And on the ground, was he in your nissen hut or was he somewhere else?
DF: No, he wasn’t in a nissen hut he was somewhere else
CB: And why was that?
DF: I don’t know, they seemed to keep them apart
CB: Hmm, one suggestion was that if they talked in their sleep
DF: Well, I was going to say, one suggestion was that, if they talked in their sleep it might cause some problems, but we had, we didn’t change our one, we had the same person all the time
CB: So, in a social context when you went out as a crew, did he join you?
DF: He joined us at times, yep, which was, I think better than helped to gel the crew together
CB: And what were the ranks in the crew? Were there all NCO’s or was there an officer?
DF: To start with all NCO’s, after about probably seven or eight, the pilot was upgraded to [pause] pilot officer and such like, and I think he was, no he wasn’t squadron leader, he was lieutenant when the crew was finished
CB: At the end of the tour?
DF: End of the tour, yes, he was the only one
CB: Okay
DF: That was commissioned in that time. We were asked afterwards but I went to fly in the RAF not to sit at a desk and such like
CB: So, how did your ranking go during the war time?
DF: The ranking, I came in as a warrant officer, so ended up as a sergeant, flight sergeant, warrant officer and I remember having an interview with the CO of the, what do you call it?, North Luff, Luffenham airfield just before you were demobbed, wondering if we wanted to stay in the RAF, and he gave us some indication of what could happen, at that time they were very short of engineers, ground engineers and funny enough during the time when I was at Cottesmore and that, I had plenty free time so I took on doing the ground engineer’s exam, and I was probably the only aircrew personnel that ever took it, and I got a rating of eighty one percent, so when I came for an interview, whether wanted to stay on or leave, he bought this up and of course I still said I wanted to go back to civvy street, but they promised probably lieutenant or squadron leader or eventually, or another thing we were interested in was the flying and the, the business side of it, the British Airways which at that time was only from Assyria to India somewhere like, which was not much [unclear] so we decided to come out and take up forestry again
CB: Fast backwards to your Berlin raid, there were all sorts of challenges on the battle of Berlin, er, what about searchlights, how often did you and was there any particular incident that was noteworthy?
DF: There was only one as I say, the blue searchlights that was the one that was the main, we had been caught once or twice with other searchlights, they didn’t cause us much damage
CB: So, what happened on this occasion?
DF: Well, as I was saying, we were caught in searchlights, and if you are caught, there’s three of them usually at a time, if you run out of this one the next one caught you and so on, so you were just held in it all the time, and as I say, rays worked in conjunction with the Ack Ack’s, if you were held long enough the guns could pick you off, and that’s what happened to quite a lot of people, we were lucky that somebody below us took
CB: So, what happened, instead of you what else happened?
DF: It was a Halifax aircraft, it was travelling below us, they never reached the same elevation as Lancasters, and all of a sudden it just blew out the sky, it was caught by, we think was [unclear]
CB: What were the relative heights that day?
DF: They would have been about eighteen thousand, we probably about twenty, twenty-one, the distance in travel on two aircraft
CB: And how many of the crew actually saw that incident?
DF: The gunners, myself, that would be all I think, yeah
CB: Right
DF: We reported it on of course on our debriefing afterwards
CB: You talked about the end of the operation, you were awarded the DFM, how was that communicated to you and how did you feel about it?
DF: I don’t think it was communicated to us, I think the first we knew about it was
[Tascam noise]
DF: When we got it in writing saying you had received it, the DFM and would we go to Buckingham Palace on the date, we didn’t know of course it was VE Day at that time, but that was the first, I was quite pleased with what was happening with, we didn’t even know at that time whether the whole crew had got it or not until later on
CB: So, this, this wasn’t at the end of your operational tour at all?
DF: No, no, it came
CB: How much later was that? Where were you at the time?
DF: I think we were at Cottesmore, it must be about, must have been about six months later anyway, at least that
CB: So, you finished your tour erm, in forty-four, middle of forty-four
DF: Yeah, yeah
CB: Then you went to Lindholme
DF: Yeah
CB: Then you went to Bottesford
DF: That’s right
CB: So, how was that working, that at Lindholme you went to Bottesford
DF: Yes, Lindholme
CB: For what reason?
DF: Well, the tour doing [unclear] at Bottesford, as I say went to Lindholme and from there I did this instructor’s course, and then was posted straight when we came back from that to Bottesford. Bottesford before that had been a Lancaster airfield, but it had also been used on D Day by the Americans, and it was in such a mess, it was windows out and all the holes of the firing through the roof and all that sort of thing, I think it was just them they bought and went
CB: What before they left they?
DF: Before they left
CB: So, what were they using the airfield for exactly?
DF: A holding point for the Americans before they went on the D Day landings
CB: The troops?
DF: The troops, yeah
CB: Right
DF: Yeah
CB: So, that was a bit disruptive?
DF: It was
CB: And the crews who you were training at Bottesford, where did they go next?
DF: They went to wherever the casualties were
CB: It was a, it was an OTU was it?
DF: It was a heavy
CB: Conversion
DF: Conversion, yes
CB: Heavy Conversion Unit, right okay
DF: So, they went to the squadrons which were, was requiring aircraft
CB: Right, okay, good. So, you were there until after the, after VE Day?
DF: Yes, and then we went to, after that we went to Cottesmore
CB: Hmm, hmm. What did you go there for?
DF: The same thing, it was just more or less, seemed to be a transfer, Bottesford was a wartime drome, it was closing down
CB: Yeah
DF: So, we went in Bottesford, went to Cottesmore
CB: Yeah
DF: Which was a, which was a
CB: An expansion period airfield
DF: Yeah
CB: Yeah
DF: And after that we went to North Luffenham
CB: Hmm
DF: Didn’t, time, didn’t spend much time at Cottesmore, then we moved on to Luffenham
CB: Another expansion period airfield
DF: That’s right where ever this, was demobbed from there in 19, end of 1946 that was
CB: So, where were you actually demobbed from?
DF: From, some place in London, [pause] somewhere near Paddington, I can’t remember, but it was a London address, I can’t remember
CB: Okay. Right, so you knew you were going to be demobbed in, well in advance, how much notice did you have?
DF: Well, we didn’t have a lot of notice, say, probably knew about a month beforehand, but prior to that what we had been crewed up to go to the Far East with
CB: Tiger Force
DF: Tiger Force, and we were getting ready for going on the week it was VE Day
CB: VJ Day
DF: It was cancelled
CB: Hmm
DF: So, we didn’t go
CB: Right
DF: Luckily. We’d done our training, we used to train on the, on the Trent, going down with a below the levels, but the Lancaster, below the lower levels that are the size of the Trent
CB: What planes were you training on then?
DF: Still Lancasters
CB: Still Lancasters
DF: But we could get it below the levels, bank levels [laughs]
CB: Yeah
DF: It was just flight engineer and the pilot, just the two
CB: Oh right, just the two?
DF: Yeah, I think it was a bit of
CB: Bravado, was it?
DF: [laughs]
CB: Needed a bit of excitement after everything else?
DF: I think, I think that’s true, but it was also a good way of training for what we might be up against with going out there, nothing about it
CB: So, after VJ day, it’s, that’s still some time before you were demobbed, so what did you do then?
DF: We were still doing training, training was kept going but the, the length of training was, well it was just a five-day week at that time, but what we did was to keep the students employed, we had one old aircraft and we, it was working, the engine was working, so we got the students to dismantle the four engines, I think there was about twenty students, there was five on each, dismantled the engine and had to put it back again, they had to run with [unclear] and that was just kept them going for another month or so, extended the time they were on the unit
CB: So, you had the opportunity of staying on
DF: Yes
CB: And er, what was the offer?
DF: The offer was if we stayed on, we could go in as, we’d get a commission and eventually we could possibly reach the grade of squadron leader, I think that what was said
CB: But, you wanted to do what?
DF: I wanted to go back to forestry. So, we demobbed and we went back to our home in Aberdour, we didn’t, it was only for about a fortnight, before that I had been in contact with the, prior to going into the forces when I was eighteen, I’d been in touch with the Royal Botanical Gardens in Edinburgh, to see about becoming a probationer however, the probationers then was only for gardeners sons, and they could become a probationer, and then they done the full course that you do in the university better then on time, they usually do it in the evening, classes and that it, it’s different from going to university and they done the work in the botanics during the day, but they wouldn’t take me because I wasn’t a son of a gardener, however after the war we tried again and by this time we had some very good friends, one who was the scout master as I said, but he was also in the Scottish, Scottish office during the war, he spent a lot of time in Edinburgh, and he got to know one of the professors in the botanic gardens, and I asked him if he could do anything to help us, which he did, and after being demobbed, for, I think about three weeks, we joined the Royal Botanic Gardens as a probationer. [laughs] One of the highlights of that was, at this time, it’s coming off this altogether, but there was a tree forgotten tree, a lost tree Metasequoia, which botanists from China in 1939 had found just the remains of this tree, had been lost for a century or something like that, and he was going to go back out again and see if he could find anymore but the Chinese, he was Chinese, Chinese obviously during the wartime didn’t have any money or anything to do, so he had said he’d seen it in 1939. In 1944, the Americans decided that they would put, give them money to go out back again to see if he could find it, which they did, and he found the tree and collected seeds from it, the seeds went as normally to various botanic gardens throughout the world, and then the UK, twelve seeds came to Edinburgh University, twelve to Cambridge and twelve to Kew, and I was at the botanic gardens in Edinburgh at that time and I got the opportunity to sow these twelve seeds, and now there’s millions of the trees growing, they were propagated afterwards from cuttings and that, so that was one of the major things I think in that [laughs]
CB: So, that’s in Edinburgh
DF: That’s in Edinburgh
CB: Where you were a probationer
DF: Yeah
CB: How long did you do that?
DF: We, we, the idea was to be a probationer and then either go to the rubber or the tea plantations abroad, or if there was any good jobs going in the UK, take that on, the difficulty in that, that the colonies didn’t want the British people after the war, they were doing it all themselves, so that sort of fell through. In the meantime, the Forestry Commission research branch, and it was a mister [pause]
SF: Edwards, was it?
DF: No, [pause] the one before that [pause] anyway he, he was Scottish research officer for the Forestry Commission, and he came in to the botanics one day when I was there, and when you started botanics you had to do a project, the project that I took to do, I had been looking at [unclear] books from the forestry on that and the Christmas trees at that time were in demand, but they had a problem because it was Norway spruce they used, and generally speaking in the spring, those trees got frost damage which spoiled them, but I found it was two different types of trees, one that flushed early and one that flushed later, and what I done when I got to the botanics, I got two thousand cuttings from each type of tree and planted them in pots, and it was when he came there he saw all these pots lying there and said, ‘what’s going on here?’
[phone rings]
DF: He said, ‘oh let’s [inaudible]
[interview paused]
CB: Story there, so you, you were interrupted by the phone
DF: Yeah
CB: Yeah
DF: So, we had these ready cuttings all in
CB: In pots, yeah
SF: [talking on phone]
DF: He came along and said, ‘what’s going on here?’ and one of the other probationers said, ‘well you’d better ask Donald, he’s across there, he’ll tell you,’ so I told him what we were doing, you know, and said, ‘well, do you want to go into research?’ I said, ‘well, I’ll have to think about it,’ he said, ‘well, we’re at the moment looking for people to come and into the Forestry Commission research, we want to increase it after, we done it after the first World War, and the second World War we are going to [unclear] going to increase the whole policy in forestry, we are going to build up more planting then,’ and I said, ‘well give me time to think,’ so we did take another three month and he came in again and said, ‘well if you wish you can start with us anytime you want,’ I said, ‘what’s the duty like?’ ‘good,’ so we left the botanics and joined them, and the first job I was then, was on the [unclear] department, which was travelling the country picking out various plantations of trees, different ages, measuring them up and getting a volume, which was going to be used for all the tables for the future
SF: [inaudible whispering]
DF: So, we measured all the trees up, we used to do that in the summer and then in the winter we used to go back to the office and work out all this, and these tables are still used today
[background noise, cups rattling]
DF: And, about the cuttings, they were sufficient survived and they were by the Forestry Commission and they were planted in a forest in south Scotland, and last I heard about
[loud cup rattling]
CB: [whispers] I’ll do it
DF: Was that
CB: [whispers] Keep talking
[cups rattling]
DF: In 1995
[loud crash and smash]
DF: They were growing and had reached the height of a hundred feet
[loud footsteps]
SF: Thank you
DF: They’d been planted in twenty-five groups, like a chequer board, twenty-five trees in each group, and the last I heard was as I say, in 1995 was still growing, you could still see the chequered in the air in the south forest
[kettle boiling]
CB: So, this was a beginning of a glittering career for you?
DF: It was
CB: So, where did you move from? In the Forestry Commission they moved you about, to where?
DF: In the Forestry Commission, they well, we didn’t move very far, in the Forestry, this I done forty seven, forty eight until we, as I said, we married in 1948, August seven 1948, and after that I asked for a transfer back to a base, and I was given Tulliallan, now Tulliallan is the same place as where I was born I was born in Tulliallan in some, in 1923, and also at that time the manager of Tulliallan nursery was a Mr Simpson and he bought the chickens and hens that my Father sold to him before he left there to go into Fife, now it becomes rather personal this because eventually, we went back to Tulliallan and then
[phone rings continually]
DF: Mr Simpson had been manager of this nursery and acres nursery when he came out the first World War, now at that time
[laughter]
[phone ceases ringing]
DF: The research, here Mr Simpson was the old type of person and he didn’t think that people should have been not in the war at all, his, his son was an objector to it, so when anybody came round there, all his junior staff was people who hadn’t been during the war, in forestry itself was people that had never been, so when research started there, when they went to ask him for something, he just said, no you can’t do this, I’m not going to do that, I don’t think you are the right people to do that. Anyway, I went there and at that time it was a, Ferguson was the name of the research forest at that time, and we had a meeting with him, ‘what do you want to do?’ so I said, ‘I want to do research on nurseries,’ and he’d got it all here. He says, ‘I don’t think you’ll manage to do that,’ and I said, ‘why?’, so, ‘Mr Simpson won’t give us any land, he’s just dead against us,’ and I said, ‘whys that?’, and he said, ‘I don’t know I think it’s probably because we’ve never been to the war,’ so I said, ‘well I’ve never been let down by anybody before, I’ll go and see him.’ So, the research people had been there probably six months and I went to see Mr Simpson and went into his office and he said, ‘I suppose you’re another one of these people,’ I said, ‘what people?’ ‘who’ve never been to the war,’ I said, ‘well I am, I have been it was hard,’ ‘what were you doing in the war?’ ‘flying Lancasters,’ and he jumped off his seat, came round and shook our hand [laughs] and he said, ‘I remember a Mr Fraser, twenty odd years ago being in a lodge down there,’ I said, ‘that was my Father,’ and he said, ‘yeah, I bought his chickens from him,’ [laughs] and I went back to, [unclear sentence] I went back to the research people and said, ‘look we can do anything we want and [unclear] go through with it Mr Simpson,’ ‘how did you manage that?’ I said, ‘just by talking to him,’ and that, and we became great friends and he’d never been on holiday since he went there, and this year, that was the year we were there, he wanted to go away for three weeks, and believe it or not, Sylvie and I went into his house, and looked after his house while he took three weeks holiday, they, they couldn’t think at that without, and we were even there, oh we used to go round and see him and after we left there, you know, that on the way to go round from Fife to Edinburgh, if it was very bad weather, was round the road and across the Kincardine Bridge and back round the other side and that, and we used to go round that way and see him. And, this night, what 1970s, we called round and his missus said, [unclear] ‘Arthur is, he’s had a stroke but he won’t allow me to get the doctor,’ she said, ‘I knew you were coming tonight,’ so I said, well we weren’t, we just because we couldn’t get back to [unclear] ‘I knew you were coming,’ so I said, ‘that’s alright I’ll sort him out, so I went down, got the keys for the office, phoned the doctor and then he went to stay in one of the new towns near Kirkcaldy in Fife, and we saw him until the end. After he died, it must have been 1980 odd, we went to see her when she went back to the west of Scotland with her son, was this time but he was still a known objector to the war, so that was that, a funny situation
CB: You’ve raised a really interesting point here, that the business of LMF, which we’ll come back to, but here you have the situation of a conscientious objector
DF: Yes
CB: And the effect on his father. So, what was his father’s attitude to his son?
DF: Not very good, he didn’t, he didn’t go and
CB: Did he disown him or did he simply
DF: Well, he ignored him
CB: Have nothing to do with him?
DF: But, as I say, after we went, that same year he went to see his son and he spent three weeks with him
CB: And he did what?
DF: He spent three weeks with him on holiday
CB: Oh, I see, with him
DF: With him
CB: Yes
DF: Yeah, so we had sort of sorted that out
CB: The reconciliation took place because of your?
DF: Yes
CB: Very touching
DF: It is very touching
CB: Hmm
DF: There we are. So, so anyway we joined the team at Tulliallan, we done the experiments there on various things within the nursery itself on, weed control was one of the main things, the cost of weed control was enormous because you had people sitting on seed beds, months and months in the summer, just pulling up weeds, so we tried different chemicals and that until we got the right one that would do that we also wanted to make sure that we grew a seedling large enough in one year to transplant, line out, transplant it out after one year, at the moment, at that time it was taking three years instead of one year, so we’d get a plant fit for a forest planting, because the Forestry Commission was going to increase a lot. As a one, a two-year-old plant and believe it or not, after so many years we managed it and they cut, well the chemicals and that helped to cut down the whole system and that
CB: Did you then do cross fertilisation how did you manage to?
DF: Well, the cross fertilisation was another part of it, from then I stayed there until we got a house there in 1950, stayed there until 52 and then the Royal Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh where I’d been previously, they decided they wanted to do experiments for students on forestry, so this landed me very well, and the Edinburgh university, the university bought a small estate outside Edinburgh, south of Edinburgh called Bush estate, and there was the land where they were bringing all their outside interests together, the veterinary college. The potato industry they were doing [unclear] about potatoes, the horticulture, bee keeping, all the departments at the university had an external department out there, and this forestry also wanted, the university wanted a forestry section there to, so I was posted there as a research forester for south east Scotland, and covered the botanic gardens and the Edinburgh university at the same time. We used to teach the students how to grow trees during the summer and Easter holidays and that, they all had to do so much practical work at that time before you could be, take the course, and then built up relations there, I was there for, too 1971, that’s a long time from 53 to 71. We built up a complete structure of research in that area of south Scotland, as you know south Scotland had probably more
[loud bang]
DF: Dukes and Earls and that, then anywhere in the UK across the borders and that, and they got all them interested in the forestry, and so much so, I think you’re talking about cross pollination and that, one of the things we did during the fifties and sixties was select the best trees in the UK
[sound of footsteps]
DF: And we called them plus trees [pause]
[background noise]
CB: We are just going to pause for a mo.
DF: Bills and all that
AM: Yeah
DF: So, they wouldn’t accept that, funny enough, after time, I used to lecture to the schools
AM: Yeah
DF: [laughs] on forestry and tree breeding and that but they wouldn’t accept
[loud stirring of cups]
DF: The Forestry Commission at our house
[loud bang]
DF: Was down in the New Forest
AM: Yeah
DF: And they used to run courses there every year, and one of the courses was on nursery technique to cover the trade and the Forestry Commission nurseries
[background noise]
DF: And who took the courses? But, me [laughs]
CB: But they didn’t accept you because you didn’t have a university degree?
DF: That’s right
CB: Right, there’s obviously a logic in that, but we don’t know what it is [laughs]
AM: You’re not switched on, are you?
CB: Yes
AM: You’re not switched on?
CB: Yeah, we are
AM: Sorry
CB: Right
DF: So, yes, we went to Bush as we said, it was a covered the whole of
CB: Whole of the UK
DF: The UK
CB: Hmm
DF: And, we had selection for plus trees as we called them, that was the tree which was ten percent
[crockery noise]
DF: Better than the trees round about it in any plantation, the straightness of stem can make it a perfect tree to be ten percent better than the others, and we selected these and put a yellow band around them and then we went back later and collected
[crockery noise]
DF: [unclear] material for grafting from these trees, we grafted these trees onto other plants
Unknown female: [inaudible whispering]
DF: Where we, all this as done for the north of England and that was at Bush nursery, I think, Sylvie helped us and with that, that we used to do a whole day grafting and that, on the nursery, four thousand a year we used to do, and this applied for seed orchards being planted within the UK, but all that grafting was done, and I done the whole lot
CB: Fantastic. Just a final one before we pause again. How did you come to move to the south from Edinburgh?
DF: Well, this is later on. I left the Forestry Commission in 1971.
CB: Yeah
DF: For the same reason as you just said, I wasn’t a UK graduate
CB: Right
DF: And I joined the economic forestry group
CB: Right
DF: Which was the
CB: This er
DF: Largest forester group in Europe as their nursery director
CB: Right, right we’ll stop there now
CB: Because that was a commercial enterprise
DF: That’s right, yeah
CB: Yeah. Okay I’m stopping now
[interview paused]
CB: So, we’re talking about change to a commercial world
DF: Yeah
CB: What was the name of the organisation and how did you come to join that?
DF: The economic forestry group was the name of the organisation [pause]
CB: Yeah, and what did you do? Why did you go there?
[paper rustling]
DF: I fell out with the Forestry Commission research branch after all these years, and the same thing as you were talking about before, not being a university graduate. The northern research station was built in the area of Bush and it was finished in 1969. Now, I’d been running the forestry research in east Scotland for twenty odd years, and people just used to call in as they’re going into Edinburgh if they were wanting any advice and that, and just saw me and went to me again, and the research station came and they bought in all the different people on, what er, entomology, pathology, and bought all these heads of department in and they all had offices in there, but, and the people were coming up from the service when they were meant to research. Reception said, ‘oh can I see Donald,’ and the girl in there said, ‘oh no, but you can see doctor so and so,’ ‘oh I don’t want to see him, when will Donald be in?’
[laughter]
DF: ‘oh he’ll be in tonight,’ you know, ‘oh I’ll give him a ring tonight.’ [laughs] And this happened, and they got so fed up with it in there that, and I also had an office in there, and I had a secretary also, they all had to put the, all their requirements through the, this pool doing the typing and all that, [unclear] so I was getting preferential treatment from everybody, and the head was, was in charge of research at that time and he collared me one day and said, ‘look Don we’ve got a problem here, you are being posted to Perthshire,’ I said, ‘I’m not, what reason? Because I says, ‘there’s no research there,’ ‘no it’s to a unit,’ I said, ‘no I’m not,’ I said, ‘well, I joined the Forestry Commission research branch, I’ve got a note to that effect from JB McDonald when we started, you can’t do that,’ ‘well that’s what’s going to happen,’ and I said, ‘well, if that’s what’s going to happen there’s my resignation there now,’ and I left like that, [laughs] so they didn’t even [laughs]
AM: Bit of a shock
SF: Well it was because Brian was only three, I think it was, and I thought, hmm this is going to be interesting [laughs]
DF: So, anyway the forester group had an office in Edinburgh and we’d been dealing with planning with plants anyway, and we knew them quite well, and I was up there on an interview to become one of their managers, area managers, and we were having this interview and the phone went, and this was their headquarters saying did I know they had a vacancy for a nurseryman to take over their nurseries, running the nurseries, I said, ‘no I hadn’t heard anything about it,’ so they said would you like to
SF: Have an interview for that
DF: Interview on that, and I said, ‘yeah,’ and they said, ‘can you go down to,’ where was it? Just outside
SF: Farnham
DF: No, just below Oxford. I said, ‘yeah, I’ll go down tomorrow,’ so I went down
SF: Oh yes
DF: And had the interview, two days later I got the job and that was the start of it, yeah, but it was a, it was a challenging job because economic forestry group at that time, was doing all the planting, you know you could get grants for planting and all this, and a grant for good one thing was ninety percent of that and
SF: Tax
DF: Tax was more or less you were paying ten p in the pound for your forestry and that, and that’s a lot of people doing it and that, but when I joined them they had all different people growing the plants for them which, we were going to be responsible for giving them the best quality plants at the right price, we had to control all that ourselves, so
[phone rings]
CB: Hang on
DF: So, if we were going to control all
SF: [on phone] Hello, yes
DF: The quality we had we had to have it all in our own hands
SF: [on phone] Yes, I’m here
DF: At that time, they had
SF: [on phone] can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you
DF: Getting, growing procedures to various nurseries throughout, throughout the country, in the north and Northern Ireland, used to grow seven million for them and the various small companies used to supply them with plants, but to me that wasn’t good enough, we were going to be responsible for that, so within two years, at that time we had two nurseries running forestry, one in Scotland in a little mill just outside Perth and one a mile from here just up the road, and that was the two nurseries that belonged to economic forestry group, then another two that was down in Devizes and then Cambridge, which was used for high quality trees and shrubs for the different markets, so we decided that to stop all the contracts we had with Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland decided to take me to court for breaking contracts, which I said, you can’t have no money so [laughs] that, anyway they dropped that so that was seven million we dropped that to sell. Nurses in the north of Scotland was also growing for us, and we cut all these, increased our own volume in our own nurseries, doubled the size of both nurseries and in the end we were growing, the company was using forty million trees a year and I decided we didn’t want to grow forty million and we grew twenty percent less, so we started growing two million of our own stock which gave us a market still market in the [unclear] if it was a bad year for one species we would still be in the market to get that species from other people, and the, that worked very well. The people that didn’t join us afterwards, used to come to say, ‘what provenances of pine do you want?’, I would say, ‘so and so’, ‘oh’, ‘the next time I orders I’ll get that in case you want them,’ ‘so we will probably want them,’ and when it started before that I used to go to the nurseries and say, ‘have you got any Scots pine?,’ ‘yes,’ ‘what origin?’ [laughs] ‘er what origin do you want?’ and I would say, ‘oh [unclear] for the north west,’ ‘oh that’s what they are,’ ‘come off it, can I see your books?’ [laughs] many times it wasn’t the book they give you the sort you wanted, so afterwards we got known as the person that if you wanted anything, contact me, and it was a responsible thing, because we were responsible for the whole of the UK more or less, had we chosen the wrong provenance or anything of these things it would have been disastrous for the private sector and that, because we were selling plants that were planted by our company for their future, you know, but it worked out well. The only time I used to have to, had the possibility of stopping any planting that was being done, if I didn’t think it was the right provenance for that site, which meant a lot of travelling, we used to do fifty thousand miles a year looking at different sites to make sure that the right species and the right provenance was going on. Scot erm, [unclear] spruce was the main species and that was the one that needed all the rain, but it gave the best quality tree in the end, but there was a range of that available from Oregon up to Alaska, right down the west coast of America which meant that if you got, say trees from Washington, half way up, they were very fast growing, but they couldn’t stand the winter frosts on certain sites, on the other hand if you wanted to, to put them on a high elevation to increase your level of trees, get them from Alaska, and you could plant them there, and of course people at that time, didn’t want to have different species but one species on the site, so they could all get off together, so we used to, at the bottom of the valley, probably only put in plants from Washington, and as you go further up Queen Charlotte Islands and at the top just to get the next twenty feet of growth, these high ones from Alaska and that’s what made the difference between these people making a profit and not making a profit. On the other hand, there’s of course, that once they were selected and that, initially the seed was producing something like fifteen, sixteen percent of quality trees per thousand, after the selections were done, and I was talking about plus trees and all that, but that quality went up to sixty percent, and then when the seed orders came in it went up to eighty percent, so eighty percent of the plants planted on the hillside was becoming timber size instead of sixteen percent a few years back, and that’s what saved the UK
CB: Amazing
DF: It is
CB: The erm, you worked on continuously did you or did you, until what age?
DF: I worked on until, I was still working when I was eighty, eighty odd
CB: Right
DF: And even when I retired I joined Booker, who was in agriculture and forestry and became their advisor on forestry for, until they pulled out in two hundred, two thousand and two, I think it was
CB: During your long career in forestry, what papers or books did you produce in support of the cause?
DF: None in that really, no, it’s all just making profits for the company
CB: Yeah. Can we go back now to the wartime? Your experiences include twelve raids on Berlin which at that time was a very difficult time
DF: Yeah, it used to
CB: How did you, how did you feel about those raids?
DF: Well, it was always said at a few, and this came from an office, used to say us, when you joined them, I think they used to say, ‘what do you intend doing?’ and said, ‘flying for thirty ops,’ and said, ‘you’ll be lucky,’ so I said, ‘why?’ he said, ‘well the normal time here is five weeks,’ I said, ‘oh that’s a lot of nonsense, surely,’ so he said, ‘well, we’ll wait and see, but you’re on Berlin tonight,’ and I said, ‘yeah that’s all alright, you know,’ ‘well, if you do Berlin once, you’ve done alright, if you do it twice, you’ve done very good, you won’t do a third time,’ I said, ‘why?’ ‘nobody’s done a third time,’ I said, ‘well I’ll proper show you,’ and that’s the attitude we took. I, I knew, and that in fairness, but if I could get that airplane off the ground with five or six tons of bombs on board, and standing on that in the aircraft with two hundred gallons of fuel in your wings, if we could get off the ground, we’d come back again, and that happened
CB: You were clearly hit by flak quite a number of times?
DF: Yes, oh we were
CB: Did you get engine out more than once?
DF: We had engines out, two, yeah, I would have to look up the book but probably three or four times, once we had two out on the same side, on the starboard side, but we managed to get down and that, and once our undercarriage got hit and it wouldn’t come down but just by doing that, quite a high pull up, it came down, it locked and that allowed us. These things you [unclear] as you went along
CB: Sure. What were the ways of getting the undercarriage down if the hydraulics didn’t do it?
DF: There was a hand, hand
CB: Was that a pneumatic pump or was it a?
DF: It was a hand, yeah you just pumped it back and forwards and that, it wasn’t a very good way of doing it, but I think we all knew how to use it once and other times
CB: One other time?
DF: Yeah
CB: So what sort of damage, other damage did you get to the aircraft?
DF: Well, we often had our communications cut off, but somehow on three or four occasions I managed to get our intercom going again which was the main thing, because even if our oxygen was gone we could come down to ten, ten thousand feet and cope without oxygen so that was alright, you knew you could, the cables were running inside the aircraft, so you, you could sometimes spot where you could do it, and I always carried extra, whatever we could get, bits of string and wires and all that, very good, join up things and that
CB: So, what sort of repairs did you have to do when you were in the aircraft on, on sorties?
DF: It was only small things like that, you could only do, it means sometimes you would see where there was a break in the pipeline, as long as you knew where the pipes were running and that, that’s one thing we studied correct a lot or the heating to your different persons, I mean the, all the heating went into the, underneath the navigator’s seat, it all came from ducts in the engines to there, and he of course would occasionally turn it off because he got too hot, and the other [laughs] members suffered because of that, but the main thing was the mid upper and rear gunner was to, suffered, because temperatures of minus forty, if their suits didn’t work there was a problem
CB: The heated suits?
DF: The heated suits, yeah
CB: As the engineer, what was your, the aircraft is ready to go, brakes off, gathering speed on the runway, what are you doing as the engineer during that period
DF: Well
CB: As you get airborne?
DF: We, we split that up between the pilot and myself
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: The pilot revved up the engines, as soon as they were at their peak I took over the four throttles
CB: The throttles? Right
DF: And he took, because that was a, took hold of the steering
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: And he looked after that, I looked after the engines and the programme to push up there, the throttles, and if we was up we weren’t going to get off on time, I would put it through the gate up to the, which I didn’t like doing because it didn’t do any good to your engines
CB: Right, okay
DF: But occasionally
CB: So, this is an important point really because here you are going along needing to get airborne, how soon did you take the throttles after you started rolling?
DF: Just as soon as it started rolling
CB: You did
DF: Yeah
CB: Right, and so you would advance them slowly?
DF: I’d advance them, and advancing the starboard, that little bit
CB: Starboard outer?
DF: Yes, the starboard
CB: To avoid swing?
DF: To avoid a swing
CB: Hmm
DF: And keep it going like that
CB: And then all of them would be level?
DF: That’s right
CB: So, could you take off without going through the gate?
DF: Occasionally, yes if
CB: If you were fully loaded?
DF: Yes, if we weren’t going too far
CB: Hmm
DF: You know
CB: Oh right, so lighter fuel load? Okay. So, when you say going through the gate, what does that actually mean? In terms of, to the engines?
DF: It meant it was going through, up to a different level of speed, the engines were going up, the
CB: So is this
DF: Screaming, screaming at you
CB: Is this purely throttle or have you got a super charger coming in?
DF: Super, it was a super charger coming in
CB: Hmm
DF: Yeah, but I didn’t like doing that
CB: No. So, in practical terms you can get off with that, how soon would you return to ordinary engine power?
DF: When we were off the ground, the next thing we’d be together round the garage shop
CB: Right
DF: And, as soon as that was up then we’d pull our engines back, just too sufficient to keep travelling up to a certain height at the speed which the navigator wanted us to be
CB: Right
DF: You know
CB: So, you take off, you’re out of the gate, what are you doing about engine synchronisation, how are you dealing with that?
DF: Yes, that, that was one of the things that caused a lot of problems, you couldn’t get them synchronised, it took sometimes a little bit of working on them, one and the other to get them, but once you got them synchronised
CB: How do you do synchronising?
DF: Just by listening to the engines, just
CB: And you were adjusting the pitch?
DF: Yeah, a little bit but just touching your throttle now and again, just watching them, yeah, you were level or the noise was acceptable
CB: Hmm,
[unknown coughing]
CB: Because in practical terms, synchronising is avoiding vibration
DF: Yeah, yeah, that’s right
CB: Hmm
DF: But, it could, it was done correct, but going well
CB: You talked about erm, the mid upper gunner in one situation, so what was that? Could you just describe the event and what happened?
DF: Yes, the mid upper gunner, that’s when we lost him, that was, that was a trip to Berlin, I think we were probably half an hour away from the big city itself
CB: On the way there?
DF: And, on the way there, yes
CB: Right
DF: And, we were hit by flak
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: We lost the starboard inner engine, it went on fire, and we lost all the communication in the aircraft itself, and the, nobody could hear anything at all, and that, so as I said before, I used to take on the job of watching the gunners, because you was looking out the side window and that, you could see the turrets swinging
CB: Yep
DF: Backward and forward, and this day his wasn’t, it was just steady and not moving, so after sorting out the engine problems and that, cutting off the engine, I decided as I said, to go back and have a look and see if he was alright, I thought he’d just hadn’t any communication and he was just wondering what to do, you know, and was sitting in the turret waiting for things to happen, so, as I say when we got back I tapped the wireless operator and he came back with us, and we met him just going out the back door you know, his hand was still just on that, opening the door, which I managed to, well, the way we done it was, I hit him over the arms, was the oxygen bottle I think, otherwise I think he would have beat us you know, and then we got him back onto the bed and that was it
CB: What was his composure or lack of it, what did it look like?
DF: [sighs] A man that was determined to get out, that’s what it appeared to be, and I think what happened, he must have thought that, he had seen the engine on fire, he’d heard nothing throughout the aircraft itself, I think he thought that the orders had been given to abandon the aircraft, but because he probably thought he was the only one that was cut off from the, not hearing, and he was going to make himself out, but he forgot to take his parachute
CB: Hmm, so you and the wireless operator grabbed him, what did you then do?
DF: We, we bought him back to the middle of the aircraft
CB: To the couch?
DF: To the couch
CB: Hmm
DF: And put him there and if I remember right, we put a strap round him just to keep him on the couch and that, and of course we, it had to be reported when we came down, and that was
CB: Right, so when you got down, what did you do first then?
DF: First down, we, we asked for an ambulance and that took him to the
CB: Sick quarters
DF: Sick quarters
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: And, as I say we didn’t see him after that
CB: Right
DF: We just reported it. The, the, one thing, he’d been taken to hospital and that was the end then
CB: What was the reaction of the rest of the crew, including the pilot?
DF: Not very good, we didn’t think it was necessary, we thought he should be back maybe after two days or something like that, but then we were told that he wouldn’t be back and we weren’t very happy about it but there’s nothing much you can, you can do
CB: No
DF: He’d done twenty-one ops, so I think he was, there couldn’t be much wrong with him if he’d done twenty-one, it wasn’t as if he’d only done one, you know, but there we are that’s how it goes [pause]
CB: And er, to what extent did you as a crew, know what happened to people who were classified LMF?
DF: We didn’t know at all, and I don’t think, somehow, I don’t think we wanted to know
CB: No
DF: To be honest. We, I don’t think we took in what we saw in the morning when we went in for breakfast, when all the empty tables
CB: Empty seat
DF: Empty seats, I don’t think we really took in that was another, well it was two crews, three crews, four crews probably, but for ages that would two men, later two people like yourselves, you know, I don’t think we took that in, probably didn’t want to take it in
CB: No. So, it was a topic that was discussed later or not?
DF: It was one that was never discussed
CB: Right
DF: No, and even when we landed at Wickenby after that, the only two people that knew, a few of us alone was myself and the pilot, we didn’t tell the rest of the crew, but no we never discussed that at all
CB: The [pause] remaining ten ops, you had other people come in, was it ten different people, was it
DF: No, it
CB: Only a small number and how did they integrate?
DF: They integrated very well, there was one came in for four or five, he was just finishing his tour, and then another one, I think on the same situation and I think about two to finish off the tour between them, and it got
CB: How would people like that be on their own?
DF: Probably they were sick the night the aircraft went out and the aircraft was lost
CB: Ah
DF: With a different gunner on or whatever he was, yeah
CB: Right
DF: And that’s why we wouldn’t fly, leaving one of our, without our whole crew
CB: Yeah
DF: Or giving a crew member to another crew
CB: Right
DF: We’d rather all go and that, that was the same situation, but we didn’t get that, so good
CB: But erm, in terms of background knowledge of what happened to LMF people, what did you understand was their fate?
DF: [pause] Something I’ve never thought very much about, but I knew they were taken off operations, I didn’t know what happened to them after that, I probably didn’t want to know [pause]
CB: Okay. Thank you very much
[interview paused]
CB: So, we talked about a huge range of things and one of the points is that you mentioned is that as soon as operations finished, the crew was dispersed, so during war time you didn’t actually meet up at all, but after the war and with the formation of the 101 association, what links did you have with former members of the crew?
DF: Well, the first one was with [pause] the wireless operator. I’d written a small article for the association booklet and his son phoned us up the following week, and said, ‘was I the Donald Fraser who flew with my Father during the war?’ and I said, ‘yes I was,’ and he said to me, ‘well, he’s not very well at the moment but if you’re ever down this way,’ that was to Exeter, ‘call in, and if he’s in good health, we’ll go and see him,’ and I said, ‘well yes, if we come down to Woolacombe,’ that’s just who the lady was on the phone, Sylvie was talking to her, and we said, ‘yes, if we come down we’ll call in,’ which we did, and he was in reasonably good health, and we went to see him and saw him at home, and his wife, and we stayed there about two, two and a half hours and it was an unusual meeting and that, because we hadn’t seen him for probably seventy years, and then we met him the following year, and the year after that his son phoned us to say his father had died, so we went to his funeral and represented the squadron at his funeral
CB: And in those conversations with him, did you open the hangar doors or were you talking about other things in life?
DF: I think we were talking about other things in life
CB: Rather than your war time experiences?
DF: Yeah
SF: I think so, I don’t think you really touched on
DF: No, no. Then funnily enough, some weekends we’d go to a small airfield just outside Shrewsbury here
SF: Sleap
DF: Known as Sleap
CB: Oh, Sleap yes
DF: Yes, and this time, just about Christmas because I was showing them what the Christmas lunch was like during 1943, and I showed them, then this other person that was there said, ‘can I have a look at that?’ I said, ‘yes you can,’ which he did and he said
SF: Yes, but it was because all your crew had signed
DF: Yeah, I was going to say
SF: That
DF: They’d all signed
SF: The brochure or didn’t
DF: The menu
CB: Yes
DF: And they said did they all sign that?’ and I said, ‘yes,’ and he said, ‘well, that one there, Grant, he’s one of our family,’ I said, ‘how do you know that?’ ‘because the way he writes his w and his g’s, ’the whole family used to give him problems at schooling on not using the correct way of writing,’ so it worked out
[paper rustling]
DF: That
CB: That’s Jimmy Grant
DF: That’s Jimmy Grant
CB: Yes
DF: Worked out that the person we see here was, Jimmy Grant was his uncle, and he was [laughs]
CB: Amazing
DF: And we saw him last weekend
CB: Did you? [laughs]
SF: Yes
DF: [laughs] He comes and does a lot of the work within the small, we’ve got a small
SF: Museum
DF: Museum there, he does a lot of work within the museum, framing up things and putting things in [unclear] and all that sort of work, so [laughs]
CB: Perhaps a final question, you said that at the end of your tour, you didn’t know that you had all been awarded DFM’s
DF: No
CB: And, it wasn’t until later that you had a notification, so the first question is, how did that get communicated to you?
DF: Well, it was only to me the one, I didn’t know the whole crew had got it
CB: Right
DF: Until this day, I would never have known, if it hadn’t been, since then we’ve met up with these crews and looking at the photograph of our rear gunner, Len Brooks, who is in there, he told us what happened, when we came, was near to the ground and that, about the chickens and that
CB: Yes
DF: He was in another book and his photograph was there along with one or two others, and I saw the DFM
CB: DFM
DF: Was on
CB: Right
DF: His tunic, so I knew he’d got it also
CB: So then, fast forward to when you went to the palace. What was the process that you went through in order, because this is VE Day?
DF: Yes
CB: And, you go to the palace before the
DF: That’s right
CB: Decoration has been made
DF: Yes, absolutely
CB: So how did that unfold as a day?
DF: As a day, we got the, well I got the train from Grantham, my Mother and sister and that was on it before that, and we got into London about nine o’clock in the morning, and we had to be at Buckingham Palace at just before eleven, which we took a taxi obviously to there, we were there in plenty of time, and there was rows and rows of people taken into a large room, and sat there for a time, and then just on eleven o’clock, the King himself came into the front of the room, and they started then, started to call out names, and we went forward and met him, the usual thing, handshake and ‘what did you do, which squadron were you with?’ I replied, ‘well, 101,’ you know, ‘good, a good squadron,’ something else he said but I can’t remember, just [unclear] and then we got it pinned on and that was it, you know. We, after that, I think, must have been half past twelve or one o’clock, something like that, we left there and I took my sister and Mother to the hotel where they were staying overnight, and I made my way to the station to catch the train back to Grantham and I got there, I suppose early evening didn’t I [laughs] and had to walk
SF: Ooh, no, it was the middle of the afternoon
DF: Was it? Oh, I must have got an earlier train probably a train at three o’clock or something
CB: Did they give you a, how many people were there and were they mixed forces or only airforce, in your batch?
DF: No, all airforce
CB: Oh
DF: No, they were all airforce
CB: Did they give you refreshments afterwards or just say that’s it?
DF: As far I, I can’t, I don’t think we did get any refreshments at all, I think we just did that for a small time, whether that changed because it was VE day or not, I don’t know, but London was wild with
CB: And when you walked out of the palace, then what was the reception?
DF: It was a wild place and there was people everywhere just, mostly just having a good time and that, and of course it got worse as the day went on, well, well we didn’t go back to squadron for I think two days after that
CB: Oh. So, you walk out of the palace, how did you feel about that?
DF: Oh, a little bit of excitement, but quite pleased, I can’t remember much
CB: The pride of Mother and sister
DF: Hmm
SF: And your aunt
DF: Hmm
CB: Thank you
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Keith Fraser, One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-04
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFraserDK161104
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Fraser grew up in Fifeshire, and worked in forestry until he volunteered into the RAF in 1942, aged eighteen. He trained as a flight engineer and completed a tour of operations with 101 Squadron. He recalls operations to Berlin, being hit by anti-aircraft fire, how the mid upper gunner tried to jump from the aircraft, and landing in the wrong airfield in the fog. After he completed his tour he became an instructor, and before he was demobbed he was offered a commission but decided to return to forestry work. He talks extensively about his career working in forestry until his retirement in his eighties and about meeting up with some of his crew seventy years after the war.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:59:40 audio recording
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
Lancaster
RAF Bottesford
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/592/8861/PJoynerJH1601.2.jpg
ff67cf547f2ebab0feec8e670ac8638a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/592/8861/AJoynerJH161021.2.mp3
89510ebc25c0e353bb7aacf9484870fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Joyner, John
John Howard Joyner
J H Joyner
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Joyner, JH
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with John Joyner (1924 - 2016, Royal Air Force), his memoir and scrap book. He flew operations as an air gunner with 189 and 101 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Joyner and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So let’s just make, make sure we’ve got the sound up. So this is David Kavanagh on the — where are we? 21st of October 2016, interviewing Mr John Joyner. [background noise] And the thing is, if I keep looking over like this I’m not being rude, I’m just making sure it’s still working.
JJ: Of course.
DK: ‘Cause I got caught out before and it suddenly stopped.
JJ: How long is the interview?
DK: As long as, as long as you like.
JJ: Go on. Carry on.
DK: What, what I’d like to ask you ask first of all, and I always ask this question, is, what were you doing immediately before the war?
JJ: What was I doing before the war? As I may recall that, um, I was working at a warehouse, at the Co-op, the CWS in London, and like a lot of other people I joined various organisations. In my case I joined the —
Ann: ATC
JJ: ATC. That’s right, the Air Training Corps.
DK: Air Training Corps, yep.
JJ: And we had the opportunity to fly then, you see, which was most interesting, apart from which it, extended my education, things like algebra and geometry and stuff I’d never encountered before. So it was like an extra, extra-curriculum for me. Most useful.
DK: So, what aircraft types did you fly in the ATC? Go up in the ATC?
JJ: In the ATC I think — you have the advantage of me now because you have this recording but let’s see —
DK: Would it be the Tiger Moth, would it?
JJ: That’s right. The Tiger Moth, yes, yes, yes. ‘Cause that was a dual seater, the Tiger Moth, and then we went on to four engine aircraft, two engine aircraft, and that was the Wellington. And that was when I had my head in the astrodome in the fuselage because we didn’t have a mid-upper turret. Our rear gunner, sadly dead now, was smaller than me so he was sort of, fell into the, fell into the nomenclature, the title of rear gunner, he could fit nicely into that space.
DK: Was height a big consideration when you were —
JJ: I think so really rather than somebody or other because you’d have to fold yourself to get into the turret. There wasn’t a great deal of room there.
DK: Just stepping back a little bit. What made you want to join the RAF? Because were you called up? Or what made you — as opposed to say the army or navy?
JJ: Again, that’s in the narrative that I provided but I think it was interesting, thought provoking, you know, flying.
DK: Did the Battle of Britain have any influence on you?
JJ: I think not. But you see, after all, I think I spoke about 1940. Well this was of course, that was of course, the Battle of Britain. When Britain came face to face with the enemy and you just wanted to take part and there were so many interesting things to do.
DK: Yeah. Was it, was it — how did you feel then about joining the RAF? Was it, I mean, you’d seen the Battle of Britain. Was it — did you want to be a fighter pilot or, was there anything that sort of drove you to —
JJ: I just wanted to take part.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: I wanted to take part. At the time, of course, the idea of going into aircrew seemed distant but as to — no, it was the idea of joining the RAF to begin with. I think maybe because, perhaps, the local branch was rather more for me. But I think it suited me more the idea of possibly flying rather than marching up and down.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: Mind you, commendable as these other services were and are. Yes.
DK: So, can, can you remember your first posting in the RAF, because you would have done your initial training, where you went to first of all?
JJ: Yes, well, because you see, it was decided that it’s in that account. But we were all sent to a place called Heaton Baths, swimming baths, and the idea was that we swam up. Those who could swim, could swim a length, and they were posted to Scotland where there were no swimming facilities. Whereas, if I’d used my head and not been able to swim I could have gone to Sutton Hoo, Weston Super Mare, or somewhere like that, I forget. It’s in the book somewhere.
DK: So, you showed you could swim and then they sent you to Scotland? [laugh]
JJ: That’s right. The swimmers went up there.
DK: It seems strange as it’s the Air Force. I can understand if you were joining the navy or something. [laugh]
Ann: Extraordinary, isn’t it?
DK: So, can you remember whereabouts in Scotland you went?
JJ: Oh yes. At St Andrews.
DK: St Andrews.
JJ: St Andrews. Actually at the university.
DK: Oh, right, okay.
JJ: Oh yes. It’s in there. We were billeted at a place called Rusacks Marine Hotel. That was first of all and then on to the university itself, which by that time had been taken over by the RAF. So we used to do our — we used to do our marching up and down the seafront there, jumping from one concrete block to another, and then eventually we were, we were posted to — let’s see. Yes, I think that was when we went to — they suddenly decided that we should all go for selection to Manchester.
DK: Right.
JJ: And so regardless of the fact that one of us had actually soloed, they made us all air gunners.
DK: So did you actually, um, take part in pilot training?
JJ: Well, only in as far as the, as the second pilot in a, in a Tiger Moth. That’s all.
DK: Right.
JJ: Not in the heavier stuff at all, no.
DK: So you were then allocated as a gunner?
JJ: That’s right.
DK: Yeah. So, did you then go off for gunnery training at that point?
JJ: Oh yes, yes.
DK: And can you remember where that was?
JJ: Yes. That was in Wales.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: For the moment it escapes me.
Ann: Stormy Down, was it?
JJ: Pardon?
Ann: Stormy Down, was it?
JJ: Stormy Down. I think that would be right. Yes, I suppose so.
Ann: Sorry about me interfering.
DK: No, that’s okay. Don’t worry.
Ann: You see, John’s old and some things he can’t remember.
DK: It’s okay.
Ann: But I can remember. I’ve heard it so many times that I can come in with the odd name occasionally.
DK: You see, what we can do with the recording — obviously we won’t have a rough cut like this —
Ann: No, no, no.
DK: We’ll edit the bits out and, you know, we’ll just —
Ann: It’ll just be a story.
DK: A story, yes. Please do, you know.
JJ: Voices. Voices from the past.
DK: Voices from the past. That’s what it is. All our yesterdays. But what I was going to say is, so, for the benefit of the recording I know you’ve written it down, but what did the gunnery training actually involve?
JJ: Well, we sat in darkness to identify silhouettes of enemy aircraft and had to make a note of these, you know, because we were going to spend most of our time in the dark because by that time Bomber Command was flying at night, but not during the day, do you see?
DK: Yeah.
JJ: And so, we sat in there and then we went up in the, I think you mentioned the plane I was in, a dual, dual —
DK: The Avro Anson, was it?
JJ: Yes, that’s right. There was room for three gunners in there and we each fired into a drogue pulled by some unfortunate plane, de Havilland or something or other, and the idea was that we painted the nose of our bolts of ammunition with wet paint.
DK: Right.
JJ: Each of us is in primary colours so that these poor WAAFs, when the drogue was finally dropped over the airfield, they could identify how many hits, if any, you’d made on the drogue.
DK: And, how, how was your gunnery? Was it any good?
JJ: Well, it’s difficult to say because, you see, I can’t remember about my prowess but what I did do is that when I went finally for the interview, which is also in that account, they asked me a question about, not about gunnery, but it was about some superficial enquiry which I couldn’t remember. So they said, ‘Do you want to be a, do you want to be an air gunner?’ So I said, ‘Yes, please.’ So they said, ‘Right, you’ve passed.’ Because they closed down the Welsh station because it was going to be used for a — German officer POWs. So they wanted a nice, nice tidy finish. So I went on there. I don’t suppose it affected my skills as an air gunner in any way but, you know, that was all they had to —
DK: So, at that point you’d become a newly qualified gunner then?
JJ: That’s right, an air gunner.
DK: Air gunner.
JJ: It’s, it’s in the book.
Ann: If I’d known that’s what our lives depended on. All a shambles. [slight laugh]
DK: Well, this is the thing. The stories are coming out now.
Other: Oh yeah, I bet some of them —
JJ: We all had our wings and we met and posed for the camera in Trafalgar Square, London.
DK: Ah, so at that point then as a newly trained, newly trained air gunner, where was your next posting, the Operational Training Unit?
JJ: Well, I can’t remember, but what we did they piled us all in one enormous room and then the pilot just picked people out at random, who he wanted in his crew.
DK: How did you feel that worked? It’s very unusual that you were all piled in together and had to sort yourselves out. Did it, did it work well?
JJ: Well, hopefully. I mean but, you see, where is it now? There were forty seven casualties, deaths, on Bomber Command training, so clearly there was some of the skills, some of the skills were not as sharp as they might have been or, alternatively, they met with some terribly bad luck, you know.
DK: So when you’re in this big hall and you’re sorting the crews out, this pilot approached you, did he? He came up to you?
JJ: As far as I’m aware, yes.
DK: And can you remember his name, the pilot?
JJ: Oh, MacQuitty.
DK: Sorry, could you say that again?
JJ: It’s in there, yes, MacQuitty. He was —
DK: MacQuitty.
JJ: He came from —
DK: Sorry. What was his first name?
Ann: Tasmania.
JJ: Tasmania.
DK: And what was the first name?
JJ: MacQuitty It’s in there.
DK: It’s in there. MacQuitty.
JJ: Okay? Yes. MacQuitty
Ann: His surname.
JJ: Okay?
DK: Yes. MacQuitty and he was Tasmanian.
JJ: Yes, that’s right. Now, of the crew, when I organised the reunion in 1999, we were all there bar two, the wireless operator, who was dead, and the skipper, who was dead.
DK: MacQuitty.
JJ: But the remaining five of us: flight engineer, navigator, myself, mid upper, and rear gunner. So it was a very good effort.
DK: Can you, can you remember their names now, the whole crew?
JJ: Oh yes, it’s all there. It’s in the book.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: Sorry but —
DK: No, no. Don’t worry. So once the crew‘s got together with MacQuitty which — can you remember where you went to then, which Operational Training Unit?
JJ: Yes, that’s right. OTU. It’s on there. Excuse me, could I?
DK: Sure.
JJ: Is it there or not? Oh, it’s in the other one [background noise]
DK: [pause] Yes. It says the OTU.
JJ: Upper Heyford.
DK: Upper Heyford.
JJ: That’s right. Yes. And as you see, apart from these four there’s another two at the back, Waddington and, Coningsby. Yes. But do carry on.
DK: Sorry, and I mean — so, so once you’re at the Operational Training Unit, can you remember which type of aircraft you trained on there?
JJ: Oh, it would be the Wellington.
DK: Right.
JJ: Yes, because that was the first aircraft we used as a crew. But of course I didn’t have a mid-upper turret. I used to stand with my head in the astrodome and I was supposed to be looking out for — trying to avoid a collision with other aircraft on the circuits and bumps, you know, because we were all going round and round this airfield, landing and taking off, you see.
DK: Right, and, and did you decide with the other gunner as to who would be the mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner?
JJ: No. It was decided for us.
DK: Oh right. So, you, you were told you were going to be the mid-upper gunner.
JJ: I think the choice was limited. He was a slighter, less taller person than me and yes, that was the way it just worked out, that’s all. The others, of course, the others were trained crew members. They’d been to Canada and all sorts, you know.
DK: So, the pilot was Australian?
JJ: Yes.
DK: Were the other rest of the crew all British?
JJ: Yes. The navigator was English, the — as you say, [unclear] British. The bomb aimer was a Scot and so was the engineer, was a Scot.
DK: So after training at the OTU can you remember where you went to then?
JJ: Well, that would have been the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DK: Right.
JJ: Going from Wellingstons into Lancs? Yes I think so, yes, Lancs. But then of course we had a four engined aircraft and I had a turret. And one anecdote that’s perhaps not in the book is that the rear gunner, who had a heated suit found his leg was burning so he asked to leave the turret and come forward and he passed under me in the mid-upper turret, and I reported him passing through, and the skipper put the aircraft in quite a [unclear] down, in a nose dive down to oxygen level. He’d got a short circuit in his heated suit which was burning his leg. But he recovered fully and off he went again.
DK: You never had that problem with — did you used to wear a heated suit as well?
JJ: No. I don’t think so. I had fur-lined Irvin jacket I think. Yes, no, no, I had a - No, I think it was only the posh members up the front who had Irvin jackets. No, I just had an all-over suit.
DK: Sort of overalls?
JJ: That’s right.
DK: So, at the Heavy Conversion Unit then, that would have been your first sight of the Lancaster, was it?
JJ: Yes, it would have been.
DK: So what did you think once you saw these huge —
JJ: Pardon?
DK: What did you think of the Lancaster when you first saw it?
JJ: What did I think? Impressive. Certainly impressive is the word. A lot more room than I experienced before. And, yes, it’s a beautiful aircraft, we always felt. In spite of all the problems that they’d had with other aircraft in the past, heavy aircraft, you know, multi-engined aircraft, it was a beautiful aircraft and it was highly regarded by aircrews.
DK: Yeah. Did you feel safe, safe, in there or —
JJ: Quite safe but actually personal safety — excuse me. [pause] I thought I had a handkerchief somewhere.
Ann: I’ll get you one.
JJ: No, it’s alright dear. It’s alright. I’ve got one.
Ann: Have you got one?
JJ: Yes. [sneeze] Pardon me. Personal safety didn’t come into it. Somehow or other you just took part, you know. That’s right.
DK: I guess when you’re younger like that it’s a bit different.
Ann: Gung-ho.
DK: You’re a bit gung-ho.
Ann: Yes.
JJ: Well, you didn’t sort of — no, I don’t think there was any question of fear. No. We just were together.
Ann: [unclear] happen to me.
JJ: We were always together, you see. Sort of a [sneeze] as I say a unified confidence.
DK: Did you find you bonded very well with your crew?
JJ: Oh yes, yes, yes. I think it would have been a problem otherwise but, —
DK: So you all kind of, you all trusted one another to do —.
JJ: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Because, you see, when you think of the, although the bomb aimer could go into the nose to his couple of Brownings in the nose of the aircraft that wasn’t primarily his job. He was down there to drop bombs so, consequently, the rest of the crew depended on the mid-upper and rear gunner to defend the aircraft, you see, but of course this wasn’t always practical if you got a determined group of fighters attacking from different quarters.
DK: Mmm, and did that happen on a number of occasions then?
JJ: No, we weren’t attacked.
DK: You weren’t attacked.
JJ: No, I did report a, what I took to be, a Focke 190 when I was in Germany. I had a German but it fell away. Now, you could say, whether this chap had thought discretion was the better part of valour, bearing in mind he saw the two turrets were moving in his direction..
DK: That’s probably what it was. He saw you [laugh]. He saw you and scarpered [laugh].
JJ: That’s right. But you see otherwise, otherwise he would have been going into quite a hail of Browning 303s, you see.
DK: So, just stepping back a bit, after the Heavy Conversion Unit, is that when you were posted to your operational squadron?
JJ: That’s right, yes.
DK: And which squadron was that?
JJ: Sorry?
DK: Which squadron was that?
JJ: Well. It’s difficult to say I’m afraid, at this stage.
DK: It mentions 101 there. Is it?
JJ: Yeah, 101.
DK: 101 Squadron. Can I —
JJ: Possibly.
DK: Is it okay to take a look? It’s got here 189 Squadron?
JJ: Yes, again it could well be, I’m not sure. Can I just have a quick look?
DK: Yeah, sure, yeah.
JJ: Thank you. [pause] It’s a good will bin. Where am I? 920. Can you see a date on there? Telegram.
DK: Telegram, so that’s ‘Report to RAF Station Upper Heyford by twelve hundred hours, 5th of September.’
JJ: Could you see a date on the stamp?
DK: Oh yeah, 31st of August 1944?
JJ: 19 —
DK: 1944.
JJ: That sounds reasonable.
DK: So this was to your operational station then?
JJ: Yes. I think so. Yes.
DK: So initially you were based at Upper Heyford?
JJ: Yes.
DK: Yeah. So it was the squadron there.
JJ: Yeah.
DK: So can you remember the other stations you were based at? Upper Heyford and —
JJ: Well again I’m afraid they’re listed on there.
DK: Were you at Ludford Magna by any, at any —
JJ: Where?
DK: Ludford Magna.
JJ: Oh yes.
DK: Ah right, okay, so in that case then I’m assuming it was 189 Squadron at Upper Heyford, and 101 at Ludford Magna.
JJ: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. There’s, just for the recording here, I’ve got 16 OTU and yeah, 16 Operational Training Unit, 189 Squadron, and were you, were you at Bardney for a while?
JJ: Bardney, yes, yes. I don’t know why we were moving about quite a bit but we were.
DK: So you were at Bardney, Upper Heyford, Bardney, and Ludford Magna.
JJ: Yeah.
DK: Does that sound right? Okay?
JJ: Yeah, yeah.
DK: That makes sense.
Ann: Having listened to this, are they all like this when they’re talking?
DK: Yes.
Ann: ‘Cause they’re old men you see.
DK: Yeah, I know. [slight laugh] Don’t worry, don’t worry.
Ann: It’s a lot of remembering to do isn’t it?
DK: It is. Yes.
Ann: Well, I’m just wondering how he compared with some of the others.
DK: Just, just the same. I mean, I have difficulty remembering what I did this morning. [slight laugh]
Ann: Yes, yes. Well I do too, especially the detail that you’re asking there. I just wondered how he fits in with some of the others you’ve heard.
DK: You will find some things are remembered very clearly.
Ann: Yes.
DK: I mean, I’m very bad at, for example, remembering names.
Ann: I’m wonderful.
DK: That’s the thing.
Ann: I never forget.
DK: So, so, while John can obviously remember the station names, not always the number of the squadron. With other people it can be the other way round.
Ann: Other way.
DK: They can remember the number of the squadron but not the name of the station where they were based, so —
Ann: But what they miss out then are you able to find out? Pick out?
DK: So yes, yes. We’re hopefully, hopefully doing that as we go through it.
Ann: Yes. Yes. ‘Cause by the time you’ve listened to a few you’ll be able to match up.
DK: What I can do is, um, now I know it’s 189 Squadron and I knew 101 was at Ludford Magna, you know, I can confirm that, that’s were the squadrons so, you know. So that’s okay.
JJ: Wait, there’s another. Wait a minute there’s, there’s more. Just a minute, excuse me [cough].
Ann: Would you like any more tea?
DK: Oh, could I please? Is that okay?
Ann: Do you want any more John?
JJ: No thank you dear. Oh, that’s our skipper.
DK: Okay.
JJ: There’s grandfather.
DK: Who’s known as Mac.
JJ: Mac. That’s him. [pause]
DK: So can, can you recall how many operations you actually did?
JJ: No, I did just two.
DK: Just two, yep.
JJ: Because, you see, we flew into France first of all and then we flew into Germany as they were crossing the Rhine, the, our British armies, you see.
DK: Right.
JJ: And it was then when we got back — don’t forget, you see, we were, we weren’t technically members of the squadron and we got back to, to the squadron base where we were just about to be, go on, as a member of the squadron, when the skipper was taken off because of the loss of his second brother.
DK: Right.
JJ: So we became, what they called, a headless crew.
DK: So he, he lost both his brothers then?
JJ: Yes.
DK: So they took him off operations?
JJ: Took him off and put him on, um —
DK: Was it transport?
JJ: Yes, something like that.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: Sorry, I can’t find this. I’ve got an account somewhere or other. Excuse me.
DK: That’s okay. I’ve got it here.
JJ: No, I don’t think so, never mind. But I had a chronological account.
DK: It’s okay. I’ve got that. I’ve got it here. That’s the one.
JJ: Oh yes but I also had a chronological account.
DK: Oh right, okay.
JJ: Where we were but I can’t find it at the moment. Here we are.
DK: Ah, right. Okay. So the two operations you did then. Can you remember where they were to?
JJ: Yes. Again, that’s in the account.
DK: There was one to Germany, wasn’t there?
JJ: That’s right. Yes. So, I think in the margin I’ve put a note.
DK: That’s right. Yes. I did see that.
Ann: There we are.
DK: I’ve got Strasburg and Saarbrücken. Does that sound —
JJ: Sorry?
DK: Strasburg and Saarbrücken.
JJ: That’s it.
DK: Yeah. So, I’m just reading your account here, just for the recording. It says, ‘Our first operation together was into France and then into Germany, which was Strasburg and Saarbrücken.’
JJ: Yes.
DK: Yes, OK. So, this is a diversion with the main bombing at —
JJ: That’s right, yes. We were dropping Window, which you know about.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So was, was that just dropping Window? Did you just drop Window and no bombs or was it —
JJ: No, we didn’t drop any bombs at all.
DK: Just Window. So it was a diversion to the main raid at —
JJ: That was the main thing, yes. Have I been a satisfactory interviewee?
DK: You’ve been very good.
JJ: Thank you.
DK: Trust me. You may not think so but there’s a lot of information.
JJ: Is that your tea sitting there?
DK: That is. I’ve got another one. [slight laugh] There’s a lot of interesting information there.
JJ: Oh good. Um, well —
DK: Once you’d — just going back to your pilot then. Just — obviously he was taken off operations. What, what did you do then as a crew because obviously you —
JJ: We went back to what they called a holding unit because we were what they called a headless crew, so we went back to a holding unit and then we picked up a new skipper, who’d been a pre-war pilot.
DK: Oh, right.
JJ: Harrison his name was and, I think he’s there somewhere. Anyway, Harrison was the — and we continued with him until the — well I think we — I’m not sure whether we were de-mobbed after a while, obviously at the end of the war, but of course it was still a few, still a while to go. We were used in various capacities, I can’t remember the close details.
DK: No. I noticed on the account there that you flew some of the POWs, not POWs, some of the army, was it the army men back?
JJ: Oh, that’s true. Well, that was post-war, you see. Well, post, post fighting, shooting war, and, yes we flew out and brought them back to England. That’s right.
DK: So, that would have been Operation Exodus.
JJ: I suppose that’s what it was called. Yes, yes, yes.
DK: And was that to Italy?
Ann: Yes.
JJ: A place called Pomigliano. That’s right. Yes.
DK: Yeah, yeah, okay.
JJ: Did he get a second cup Ann?
Ann: Yes. He’s got a second cup.
DK: Very nice, very nice thank you. So, okay.
Ann: So you’ll know the whole story of the war won’t you by the time you’ve finished.
DK: Oh yes. Definitely.
Ann: Won’t you? Because you were only a little boy weren’t you? No, you weren’t alive then.
DK: No, I wasn’t alive.
Ann: You wasn’t alive.
DK: Well, I was born in ‘63 so —
Ann: Do you find it interesting?
DK: Oh yeah. Definitely.
Ann: Do you?
DK: It’s very interesting. Okay, so we’ll probably wind up there. I mean, that’s probably good enough. Just one final query. How do you look back now, after seventy years, at your period in the RAF in Bomber Command? Is it something you —
JJ: I haven’t really thought of it before but with satisfaction, with satisfaction, because I felt that I took part, even though it was in a minor capacity, but I took part and if I hadn’t been there somebody else would have had to be there. And we did some interesting and useful jobs. It’s difficult to say how valuable they were, in retrospect, but due to the limited numbers of trips that I actually made they have to be limited. But I mean you see some of these chaps, they did tours of ops, you see.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: Two or three tours of ops and they got the chop at the end sometimes, you know. Ridiculous. But, no. Then finally made redundant and that was it.
DK: So, what were you doing immediately after the war then? What career did you go into? Did you stay in the RAF?
JJ: No. I was — we had two weeks leave in which we were given our civvy clothes, I think, and a Trilby hat, and [laugh] yes, and back home again and went back to where I was more or less before, you see.
DK: Okay, okay.
JJ: At the Co-op and you just got on, but a very small cog in a big wheel, but nevertheless we were there.
DK: And just one final question. Just going back to your role as a gunner, what was your, this might sound a silly question, what was your actual role there? Is it just to keep an eye out of any problems or —
JJ: Oh yes. Attacking aircraft. You couldn’t do — you never fired at the ground or anything like that. It was to — you could fire. I’m not sure. I don’t think we could go through 360 degrees but through about most of it, in a wide arc, you see. Well you could fire independently of the rear gunner and, as I’ve explained there, yes we could probably give directions to the pilot to say, ‘Dive left,’ or, ‘Climb right,’ or something like that, you see, ‘Climb starboard,’ so as to increase the angle at which the fighter would have to occupy to follow behind the Lanc.
DK: To make it more difficult for the fighter to fire on you.
JJ: That’s right. Because they had to be in line with it. They couldn’t manoeuvre their guns.
DK: And from your two operations can you remember the flak at all coming up? The anti-aircraft fire.
JJ: Oh, you could see distant flak but we weren’t involved. We didn’t have any, as far as I remember, flak actually near our aircraft [cough] because, after all, we were a diversionary unit.
DK: Yeah.
JJ: So we were on — literally there but not on the sharp end, as it were, because that’s where they were crossing the Rhine into Germany.
DK: And what was your feelings once you’d landed back at base?
JJ: Euphoria, I suppose, and let’s go and have a pint somewhere or other, you know.
DK: So, post-war then, you’ve, you actually stayed in touch with your crew then, did you?
JJ: Well, what happened was, I get in touch, I kept in touch with the rear gunner. Why? I can’t remember. However, and so we spent cycling holidays together and all sorts.
DK: Okay.
JJ: Poor man was the last to go but the other people I wrote. Again, Justin’s got all this. There’s stacks of correspondence where I wrote to the, the police.
Ann: To try to trace them all.
JJ: Pardon?
Ann: To try and trace them all.
JJ: Yes, I wrote to the police to find out where our navigator had gone to because he’d been a policeman. And, yes. Some were more copious —
Ann: One worked in a bank didn’t he? So you wrote to a bank?
JJ: Well, that was Bill Jones.
Ann: Yes.
DK: And what was Bill Jones? He was the —
JJ: He was rear gunner.
DK: Okay. Rear gunner.
JJ: But the navigator, he went to lecture at Police College eventually, yes. And, er, I’m afraid these accounts are somewhere in those records Ann.
Ann: That my son’s got.
DK: Right, okay.
JJ: You see?
Ann: Do you want them? Would you like us to find them?
DK: Sure, yes, if you could. Yeah. I’m sure the IBCC would be interested. What we can do is take a copy of them.
Ann: Yes.
DK: For the books.
JJ: Would you find it tedious to go through all of it?
DK: No. I wouldn’t [laugh].
JJ: You wouldn’t?
DK: I find it very interesting.
JJ: Sorry?
Ann: Do you?
Dk: Oh yeah.
JJ: You would find it interesting?
DK: I’d find it very interesting, yes. I know the IBCC will.
JJ: Well, I’ll tell you what, let’s cast our bread upon the waters Ann.
Ann: Yes.
JJ: Literally. I’ve trusted this chap with my log book, right? I’ll ask Justin to bring back a whole bundle of stuff. Right? And then give it to you. How’s that? You can take a look through it.
DK: Yes. I can look at them again later. Okay, well what I’ll do, I’ll stop the recording there but thanks very much for that. That’s marvellous.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Joyner
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-21
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AJoynerJH161021, PJoynerJH1601
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:35:20 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
Description
An account of the resource
John Joyner was working for the Cooperative Wholesale Society in London and joined the Air Training Corps aged 16 in 1940. He later joined the RAF and trained as an air gunner, initially on Wellingtons and then on Lancasters as the mid-upper gunner. He discusses his training with 16 OTU. He was posted to RAF Upper Heyfield with 189 Squadron and flew two operations dropping Window before their skipper was taken off operations leaving them as a 'headless crew'. He was involved with Operation Dodge repatriating Army personnel from Italy. He returned to work for the Coop after demobilisation. He kept in touch with his rear gunner and organised a crew reunion in 1999.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
101 Squadron
16 OTU
189 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bardney
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Upper Heyford
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/603/8872/PMarchantT1501.1.jpg
7633a576a05d3d628f8ab4f5aab3c311
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/603/8872/AMarchantT150715.2.mp3
a088003f0ff9542450c26653477e41c9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marchant, Thomas
Thomas Chas Marchant
T C Marchant
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marchant
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Thomas Marchant (1604589 Royal Air Force). He flew operations in Transport Command and Bomber Command as a flight engineer with 101, 7, and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
My name is Tom Marchant I was a Flight Engineer on Transport Command as well as Bomber Command. (slight pause) You may wonder why and how I got to be a Flight Engineer. I was only a young lad eighteen or nineteen , nineteen when I was actually operating, eighteen when I actually joined up. I couldn’t wait to get to fly. Now if I go back, I saw the Zeppelins fly over and I saw other aircraft flying around and I always wanted to be up there. I knew that as a working class lad from a working class family I could never afford to fly. I used to make my own aircraft, model aircraft, that flew from plans and with balsa wood and tissue paper and I used to fly my own aircraft and used to wish I could go up with them. I am just dying to fly, I wanted to fly. So actually when the war came along I was, em, I was er, what? fifteen or sixteen when it started and I couldn’t wait till my eighteenth birthday so I could volunteer for the RAF.
I hadn’t much education, just a basic education and I left school at fourteen without any qualifications, because I used to play about and play Jack the Lad and all the rest of it. So I thought I wouldn’t have a chance to get in the RAF but I thought I would have a go. I went, I was about seventeen and a half. I went and thought I could get away with saying I was eighteen. They started by asking me questions , how many degrees in a circle and things like that and of course I didn’t even know how many degrees there were in a circle. So I thought I had to do something about it. Suddenly I woke up, I went and got books from the library, I bought books, which you could do in these days for aircrew instruction and I got my head in these books and really started to educate myself and by the time I went, em, when I was just gone eighteen I volunteered again. I knew a lot more than when I first went and to my utter joy I was actually accepted to be aircrew. You can’t believe, to me it was almost like saying you can go to heaven and I just couldn’t believe it. Anyway em, I was eventually called up after about three to four months and em, (pause) I was sent to em, er, a camp under canvass, somewhere outside Warrington. From there we went to er, Blackpool. We went into digs at Blackpool which of course there were plenty going on in these days no em, holidaymakers, so that was the place and I went to Squires Gate airfield where I was trained, say training, er.
I ought to go back really because I did not have any formal education it was a problem getting a job. My parents weren’t very, they weren’t very helpful to me. I had a stepmother because my real mother died of consumption as it was called in these days, eighteen months after I was born. So I had a stepmother who never had any other children so I was a loner in effect, which in a way was a good thing because, em, I learnt to stand on my own feet so that helped in one way. When I went into the RAF I was quite happy to be amongst em, other lads which I didn’t have very much in my younger days em.
Any way well get back to, we went to Squires Gate and I was enlisted first was accepted as a em, Wireless Operator Gunner em, but before I was actually called up and joined the RAF I was re delegated to be a Flight Engineer because em, the four engined aircraft, bombers, were taking two Pilots and they were loosing two Pilots in one go, so they introduced the idea of Flight Engineer and I just had a basic training at Squires Gate airfield. While I was there I had to be on guard duties and I was out on the airfield on guard duty em, with a rifle and all the rest of it and I saw these ATC kids getting in an a a Anson aircraft and being flown off. So I said to the Sergeant who was on charge of us when I came off duty “can I get in there and get a flight, I have never been up in an aeroplane and I am supposed to be a trainee aircrew?” and he said “yeah you go over and join them.” So I did and I had my first er, en, flight in an Anson which are normally used for training Wireless Operators and people like that. Anyway we took off from Squires Gate and we flew round Preston Cathedral, I’ll never forget it and it was the first, I was on cloud nine. Anyway so I had more impetus in my er, my studies and I eventually, after I did my square bashing at Blackpool and er, em, the introduction to well what you call engineering. I think we filed a few bits of metal and whatnot and were shown bits of engines.
Anyway I went to St Athan where all Flight Engineers went to I understand. I er, em we learnt a bit more there I suppose and then I was passed out as a Flight Engineer.I couldn’t believe it, it was incredible really from being a hall boy in private service, scrubbing floors and then, then eventually footman in private service serving meals to people I’m suddenly in the RAF, I’m flying. I can’t put over, I can’t even think how it affected me, I just couldn’t believe it. I didn’t care if I was going to get shot at. I was only nineteen and em, I just couldn’t wait em, and eventually I passed all the Flight Engineer training and I was posted to an operational squadron. Oh no, sorry, go back. Was posted to an OTU Operational Training Unit at Dishforth where we flew in Halifaxes at first and then we flew in Lancasters, em. I think I’m missing something else out here. Of course we had to join up with a crew who had been flying Wellingtons,er, which is just a five crew aircraft and,er, this crew before they could go onto four engine aircraft had to pick up their,er, mid upper gunner and Flight Engineer and I don’t know how it was sorted out. We all got together and we got together and formed our crew and I had,em, I had an Australian pilot,(slight pause) no we had a Canadian navigator later on. So we had an Australian pilot and all the rest of us were British, English er, em, then we went onto Dishforth where we did our training on Halifaxes and then Lancasters. I just fell in love with the Lancaster, I was loving every minute of it, absolutely loving it. We went on cross country and I, it, I can’t describe. I’ve always loved flying, always will do eh, to get into the air and got through the clouds and then at night time you go above the clouds and you see the brilliant stars. . I never forget the stars that are in sky, you never see them now. Although he was an Australian he wasn’t your archetypical Australian, he was a sober sort of lad he didn’t drink and he didn’t smoke, all the rest of us did em, but that was his strength in a way, he was very level headed and he was very and he was strong as an ox. We was very lucky. I think it helped a lot, you have got to have a lot of luck but you have to have a certain amount of skill and he as we started flying with him, we got to know him and put our trust in him and he was a very good pilot.
Anyway comes our first op, all slightly nervous and apprehensive. I remember it well it was to the Happy Valley as they called the Ruhr in those days, far from happy for some and em Gelsenkirchen we went to, industrial town in the heart of the Ruhr. We did get shot up a bit, we got a little bit of flack holes and em, er, one of the pipe lines got broken but it was nothing much, no problems, all the engines working properly and we got back ok. That was a start of a series of raids on Germany, they were all on Germany I didn’t get sent abroad at all. So we went on, from 101 squadron this time from Ludford Magna we used to call it Mudford Magna because it was carved out of the Lincolnshire Wolds and made into an aerodrome not long before we got there and it was mud. I always remember the hut we were given, we were given hut number something or other and when we got there, there was a big painting of a chop, chopper there and we all knew what chop meant well you can imagine that did not inspire us very much. Anyway it turned out not to be true for us anyway. We quickly learned that a few people had been in there and not come back again, it all helped to make you cheerful when you went on you first op I suppose. Em, we survived the first op which was Gelsenkirchen that I have said and we went on. The next really impressive one was Hamburg, now Hamburg was the one where there was a fire storm. The first fire storm that was created and that was done I think on the first raid. There were three raids on Hamburg and we went on all of them and I always remember the one because the met said there was a front and it would clear Hamburg before we got there but we all knew what met was in those days they did not have satellites in the sky em, it was just by guess and by God to a certain extent. Anyway when we were approaching Hamburg on the second night er, we couldn’t get above the clouds and er, we could see sheet lightning and all sorts of lightning, anyway Bob decided to press on er, and we started getting lightning flashes right across from one engine to another, big flashes it was absolutely frightening, much more frightening than flack, em, electric lights going all around the canopy. It really was frightening and we still pressed on but we and we got into this culo, cumulous nimbus we started getting thrown all over the place.Bob decided to jettison the bombs and turn for home, but when he opened the bomb doors and we dropped we were thrown sideways and the bombs dented up the bomb bay doors and so we got quite a bit of draft in the aircraft going back. Anyway we survived and we got back home again (slight laugh) and that was another experience with something different that the sky can throw at you, probably more frightening than flak actually.
Eh, anyway the next one, the next sort of notable one we went to was Peenemunde, which was er, its up on the Baltic, on the side of the Baltic where the Germans were developing a rocket, eh, rockets which were eventually going to hit us later on. As opposed to the, eh, and the V1s which were the buzz bombs that went brrrrrrrr, you could hear them coming, I was in London when they first started using them. Anyway they were developing rockets there which were going to be the first rockets that anyone had used er, in warfare and this Peenemunde place was the place where they were er, developing them. We didn’t know this, we, it was highly top secret we weren’t told that this was a rocket place, we were told that it, that they were developing new types of radar which could home onto us. A story which eh, we all swallowed but it made us very determined to get of this place em, because it would make it easier for them to shoot us down, that was the sort of story we were given. We were attacking it in moonlight, it was the first trip we’d been in moonlight, we didn’t normally fly in moonlight and em, er , we were going to bomb it around six or seven thousand feet which was a long way lower than we normally bomb, from normally twenty one thousand feet and em, a full moon but the Germans didn’t really know that we knew about this place I don’t think and it wasn’t very heavily defended, there was just one or two searchlights. Er, I did a picture of this which shows one searchlight which is pretty well accurate. Anyway that was a reasonable success, it wasn’t as big a success as they thought, it did get rid of a few people and and it did slow up their production of these weapons for about five or six months. They eventually moved it all to a place in Germany, underground. Er, em, anyway then we started to what has been called the Battle of Brit, Berlin and we went to Berlin and er Nuremberg. I’m just going to read you from my Log quickly. We went to Berlin, Berlin, Manheim, Munich, Hanover, Munich again and then, and then after that we volunteered to go onto Pathfinders because I hadn’t really mentioned it, but our Navigator at that time wasn’t really up to the job. He took us back over London once from one of the raids and we got, we saw balloons going past us. The Mid Upper Gunner said “Hi skip I have just seen a big balloon” and we were amongst the London barrage balloons and ah, anyway I just remembered, that was frightening that was, anyway, full boost, full throttle ‘cause we were starting to come down for base. Anyway we thought if we volunteered for Pathfinders the Navigator wouldn’t be up to it and we were right. We landed up with a Cambridge educated whizz kid, little, we used to call him Brem. He was a little fellow but he was a fantastic navigator and I think that is another reason that we perhaps survived when we did. So we were lucky to have this navigator and eventually we went to Berlin, we actually went there fifteen times but we set off times but em, on two occasions we had engine problems or we had some sort of problem which made it not really feasible to carry on, so, so.
When we joined Pathfinders of course we had to do extra navigation, we had to do a lot of cross countries at night time and I used to love these cross countries jomits because we could see all the stars and on odd occasions we would see the Northern Lights. Oh, and going back when we went to Peenemunde we went right up north and we could see the lights of Sweden, Stockholm or is it Oslo, my geography. Anyway we could see the lights in Swindon(think he meant Sweden), I had forgotten that. Talking about the Northern Lights of course they are fantastic thing em, so I was still enjoying my flying. I was scared wittless actually over the Target but the target areas themselves were fascinating, there’s flares, there’s searchlights there’s puffs of black smoke all over the sky from flak, it’s, I’ve done paintings of, of raids but you can’t capture it, you really can’t capture it. The sight is incredible and em, er as far as firework shows they leave me cold, I’ve seen the biggest firework show on earth and I don’t know what else I have to say. You see, other than the fact that being aircrew I didn’t have to work on aircraft. The ground crew had a horrible job they had to patch up the aircraft when they came back and when they were at the, on the eh (pause) the perim, eh “what’s off the perimeter?” (someone suggests dispersal) dispersal, they had to work on dispersal points in all weathers. Freezing cold in the winter and we were tucked up in bed then. I mean providing you didn’t get shot down or you didn’t get injured and you came home safely, it was a dawdle. You just em, got scared to death on the op but when you were nineteen, (laugh) “that was a long time ago” it’s all an adventure er, em, it’s exciting in a way. It’s hard to describe unless you’ve been em, but can you imagine as a nineteen year old lad who has had a very boring life before and dying for something different, that I got it in mega bucks and it was a great. Em, and I am sorry to say this, to me, ok there were things that you tend to overlook. The odd nasty things that happen and discomfort in nissen huts and er, that sort of thing but to me I, I, just loved it. I’m sorry but that is the way I say it, I can understand how lots of other aircrew didn’t and they had a terrible time and when I see and read about other peoples’ experiences er, I had a walk in the park really in comparison.
Anyway on the last trip we had was what we thought was going to be a dawdle, which was marshalling yards just outside Paris. This was on the day, the night, the night, of D day and we were bombing marshalling yards and lots of other people were bombing gun emplacements on the south, the north French coast and that sort of thing, but our job was to blow up this marshalling yard just outside Paris called Juvisy . We were Master em, going to be acting Master Bomber which meant we did Master Bomber em er, a few times once you got well into Pathfinder. Being a Master Bomber you direct the bombing and you stay over the target till it all, till it’s all over and telling people not to bomb certain TI’s or certain markers. There wasn’t much doubt about this, it was well lit up and we again. It was one of those low level attacks I think we went in at six or eight thousand feet and I can remember seeing em,er, trucks going up in the air and whatnot and I did feel for any French railway workers down there which I’m sure there were, but that’s war. Anyway we thought that’s great we’re on our way home and we just about left the target when suddenly this ME110 appeared right up beside us, incredible, and before the Mid Upper Gunner could peel round on him he just peeled of. Of course after that we were waiting for the coup de gras. We thought and Bob really started throwing it about like the Spitfire he always wanted to fly. He was a real beefy bloke and he started throwing it about and em, we started doing this for about twenty minutes or so and we thought we hadn’t seen him again and we settled down again and he was just doing a bit of a weave and suddenly, pow! We got hit, feel everything juddering and em, we suddenly went into a dive. He’d hit the, he’d hit the elevators, the Rear Gunner, very lucky chap, he survived. He said “all the elevators have been hit” well we didn’t have to be told that(slight laugh)we felt that. The plane went into a bloody dive and I thought “bloody hell we’ve had it now.” Anyway old Bob being a beefy bloke he really held it back and we tried em, what did we try. Anyway we used the trimmer but it didn’t make any difference em, er, I was helping him pull it back and I remember I had my tool, all Flight Engineers had a tool bag with them, don’t know what they were supposed to do with them half the time. We weren’t going to crawl out onto the engine and start doing things. Anyway eh, I got a piece of thin nylon rope in my tool bag, I don’t know how it be or was there. I don’t know why I should carry this but I had it and we tied er, we tied, or tied a piece of it round one of the circles in the formers of the aircraft. There a lots of holes of course and we put it in there and put it round the yolk, round the upright part of the control column and that gave us quite a good purchase. Then just as we sorted that out we noticed the outboard starboard engine had started to smoke and flames started to come out of it so we eh, feathered that, pressed the fire extinguisher and fortunately the fire extinguisher worked, which it apparently didn’t on Paul that Just Jane from East Kirby. Anyway our fire extinguisher worked so everything was, but of course when all this was going on we were expecting to get the coup de grass, we though he would be back to finish us of. Somehow or other our luck as a crew held and we got back to Manston which is right on the edge of the Kent coast. Em and the landing of course, we weren’t sure if the wheels would go down em but em, he tried the flaps and the flaps worked and he tried then just before, he said “we could do a belly landing if necessary” with the wheels up and everything. We tried the undercarriage and incredibly the undercarriage worked, then the other tricky bit was the pressure required to flare out and hold it on a proper approach er angle and flare out. It wasn’t one of Bobs best landings but it was, you walked, they say if you walk away from a landing that it, your lucky if you walk away from a landing that’s a good landing, and it was. After that we should have done another couple of trips to make up for the two that were aborted but they stood us down and we all went our different ways.
I eventually went up to Lossiemouth and I em er I did instruction on dinghy drill which fortunately I never had to do myself but I had to learn how to do dinghy, I had to learn dinghy drill and then I showed it to operational people, OTU people who were going to have to go on ops. Well we never had that when I went to OTU. But em.and that was at Lossiemouth swimming pool, I always remember that, I enjoyed that. I got to fly, I still wanted to fly they had Wellingtons up there I think and they had other aircraft and I used to get flights er, when they were doing test flights, on any aircraft I would go up in it, I still loved flying, always have done and em er. After that I had to revert to what I was supposed to be which was an Engineer, but all they gave me was changing all the plugs on a Napier Sabre which was about forty eight plugs and that kept you busy for a bit. They didn’t let me loose on anything that was em very important. Em but and I always wanted to and I kept applying to go flying again and I got a job on transport, I got posted to Transport Command and it was a period when we thought we might have to, oh no sorry, the Far Eastern war was still going on. The Japanese war the er the Yanks hadn’t er yet bombed with the Atom Bomb and the Japs was still fighting and we was going to have to send Big Wigs out to the Far East and they were going to be flown over by a civilised version of the Lancaster, called the Lancastrian and for that you had to learn how to load certain loads. It was like civil aircraft, you had to load the aircraft properly with certain loads and whatnot, so we had to do a course on that. Then we eventually flew a Lancastrian and only a month or so after that after we got into this the Japanese war just stopped. The er the Yanks dropped there second Atom Bomb and they surrendered and so there was no more use for these Lancastrians to go out to the Far East.
So then I got, then was trouble flaring, possible trouble with Russia because they had overtaken Berlin and all the rest of it and everybody knows about the Berlin Airlift which I wasn’t on. I would like to have been on that. I was em then put onto Halifaxes and we were towing we were towing gliders and dropping parachutists over the Salisbury Plain we also had to drop ten pound guns and a jeep and they were all strapped under this Halifax, they took the bomb doors off and they strapped these thing on, and you had to drop them on the Plain. Those were the dodgiest piece of flying I think I ever did I think I would liked to have gone back on ops actually. Because they struggled off, off I think it was ridiculous really, they struggled off the end of the runway and if you had anything like a cross wind with all that underneath you sticking out. I can remember being really frightened on take off with that stuff but I must have been a very lucky bloke. I had another good skipper he was a Scot er. Anyway that was Transport Command, you are only interested in Bomber Command aren’t you?
Question by interviewer. “So when you were on Pathfinders?”
Yes of course before we were on Pathfinders, before we actually operated as a Pathfinder we had to do a lot more cross countries and night time cross countries which I used to like. It’s so lovely looking at that starry sky and em everything and very often it was semi moonlight because we did not operated on moonlight towards the end of the war. We did not operate on moonlight because you would get shot down so easily which we demonstrated when we went to Paris but em (pause)oh I get er, and when were on those cross countries that was when I used to get into the driving seat, the skip he’d put it in, you could put the Lanc into automatic you know it could fly itself but of course that is not quite the thing to do when you are operational. He’d put it in automatic I’d get he’d swap seats and I would fly it and I would turn, I knew how to control and aircraft anyway because I was so keen when I was a lad I learnt all about airplanes and em at first the crew said “hey you are not letting him in the seat are you?” (laugh). I took to it quite well and the Navigator would give a course to turn onto and I would turn onto the course and everybody was happy. I was happy, I was happy as Larry because I was flying the airplane, you know, hands on. Not many people have had hands on, on a Lancaster so it has always been one of my things.
From that when I came out I wanted to carry on flying but I had got married and em we were paying a mortgage on a house and you can’t afford to fly. I got a job, not a very not a well paid job, I had a job with Lucas actually in the press shop, not in the press shop actually, doing, getting materials up for them and everything. Then I went in the gas board, kids came along, eventually grew up and once I got, I started getting promotions and a bit more money I still got this feeling I wanted to fly and I wanted to fly the aircraft myself. The next thing the cheapest way of doing that is join a gliding club and er, I joined a gliding club near Grantham at er, Saltby where Flying Fortresses had taken off if you remember, didn’t they, from Saltby and there was a gliding club there which I knew from a friend. I went there and I started gliding. In no time at all I was sent off solo. I done quite a bit of gliding I got the Silver C which is staying up for five hours and er doing fifty K , it was all the fives. It was making a height of five thousand feet and fifty kilometres and five hours up and fifty kilometres and making five thousand feet, that’s right. I went beyond that but got my Silver C in gliding but there are days when you can’t fly anyway, you can be launched and you can take a launch up to fifteen hundred two thousand feet but if there are no thermal or anything at Salby anyway you just came down again. Anyway some friends of mine said “why don’t we get a motor glider?” he heard about a motor glider that was going, a Faulke motor glider he said “you can fly anytime then” and they do thermal as well. I have stayed up for three or four hours in a Faulke you know. We em went to so, and from there this was over a period of a few years, five six years and em you had to pass a test to fly the motor glider which was half way on to getting your private pilots license, but to do that you have got to have a proper single engined aircraft like a 150, Cessna 150 and em, of course that costs, that costs money. Then I was flogging my pictures and whatnot and got a better job. I got a company car that was another thing, I got a job with a company car in advertising driving all over the place and em, I got a company car and they were very easy about, they paid for all the petrol whither it was for me or not. I mean you would not get a job like that these days. (laugh) I was very lucky and from, from then you may not know Burnaston it’s where they make the Toyotas now and that’s just outside of Derby on the A38. That was an aerodrome during the war. They had all sorts there, it was a primary trainer, it’s only a grass strip, it’s a good sized grass strip and they eventually flew em what it’s names off there, didn’t they Pete? “Argonauts” yeah and Dakotas and things and it was sort of Derby, it turned into Derby Airport of course. Then it closed down for a while and Jack, what’s his name, Jones he opened it up, didn’t he? I helped, I just retired then when they started opening up Burnaston as an aerodrome again and I went and helped mark out the runways with a concrete,no it was a white, white chippings to line the runway to mark out the runway to make it commercially acceptable again for flying. They got em (pause) “terrible loose my words.” Em Cessna 150s which are a two seater private aircraft which are a very popular aircraft who want fairly cheap flying. Of course to fly one of those, to hire one out and fly it you have got to have a proper pilots license. That is the first step on flying really a PPL as it called and em er, I started flying these Cessna’s but I couldn’t afford to fly them very much as it was quite expensive to hire out an aircraft and I had got my share in this motor glider anyway. I wanted to add to my flying experience in effect I would like to have gone and done instrument flying so you could fly at night but it all costs money and time. When you are a family man you have to consider your wife and what not so. You are restrict, restricted to a certain extent. I did what I wanted to do to a, you know and I have been very lucky really, very lucky.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Thomas Marchant
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-15
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMarchantT150715
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:51:12 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Tom Marchant had always wanted to fly and at eighteen joined the RAF as a Wireless Operator Air Gunner but was remustered as Flight Engineer after his initial postings to Warrington and Squires Gate Airfield, Blackpool. He describes his very first flight in an Anson aircraft from Blackpool. His next posting was to St Athan where he passed out as a Flight Engineer and was posted to an Operational Training Unit at Dishforth in Yorkshire where he flew in Halifax and Lancaster aircraft and met the crew he would fly with. On completion of the OTU he and his crew were posted to 101 Squadron based at RAF Ludford Magna where they completed a number of bombing operations over Germany. The crew successfully volunteered for Pathfinder duties and had to complete further training in navigation and cross country flying. On these training sorties he actually flew a Lancaster.
On completion of operations Tom went onto instruct dinghy drill at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland and from there went on to join Transport Command flying Halifax aircraft. After the war he left the RAF but continued to fly gliders and motor gliders from Salby (ex USAF bomber station) near Grantham. He eventually went on to gain his Private Pilots License.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
101 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
fear
flight engineer
ground crew
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancastrian
Master Bomber
Me 110
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Dishforth
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
training
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/951/9529/PPetrieIFP1801.1.jpg
603fc627e20cb4957ccaccc321b96fc9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/951/9529/APetrieIFP180926.2.mp3
c9c02b67bd9df95a599e70b6c9a17f06
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Petrie, Ian
Ian Fabian Prosper Petrie
I F P Petrie
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ian Fabian Prosper Petrie (1919 - 2019, 425170 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Petrie, IFP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JB: This interview is being carried out for the International Bomber Command Centre in the UK. The interview is Jennifer Barraclough. The interviewee is Mr Ian Petrie. The date is the 26th of September 2018 and the interview is being done in Mr Petrie’s home near Auckland, New Zealand in the presence of his son, Robert Petrie. Ok. Mr Petrie, thank you very much for taking part. Could you tell me just a little bit about your life before you joined the RAF? Where you come from. A bit about your childhood.
IP: It was the end of the Depression. The end of the Depression and I was, it was hard to get work and I was only sixteen and I got a job through family in Newmarket doing, cleaning cars. Keeping cars spotless for sale because cars didn’t sell much these days. And this day a boy that I went to school with went past and saw me and he, I called him and he said, ‘Oh, how much do you get?’ And I said, ‘Oh, two pounds a week.’ ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘Out where I am we get a basic rate of 5.10.’ Five pound ten. ‘But,’ he said, ‘We make up to twelve, even fourteen dollars with overtime. And he said, I said ‘Do you think I’d get a job there at the end of the day?’ He said, ‘Oh, give it a try anyway.’ So, I went out and I got the job. I was getting quite big money but it was a very bad environment. They were, you know gambling and real, real hard lot of people that you worked with. So, I stayed there for a while but it’s a long time ago to recall. The [pause] Oh, that’s right I [pause] With all the carry on I had, I had developed a drinking problem. Drinking too much. And anyhow, the big outfit that I worked for, the medical man there, he sent me in to a specialist in town and they said to me, they said, ‘Well, you —’ They said, ‘If you don’t stop drinking alcohol you won’t live until your fifty.’ So, I had to make a decision then to make a complete break and cut out drinking altogether. So, I did that. I gave up the job with the big money because I was wasting it all and I went to work out of it bit cutting tea tree firewood in the bush. And from there went from one sort of job up to another and I saw the, you know, something about the Air Force that you know the, they were recruiting people as flyers and I thought oh God how unbelievable if you could, you know, fly in an aeroplane. You didn’t, I didn’t know anybody in those days that had even been up in an aeroplane. So, I thought oh, I’ll, I’ll volunteer and see how I get on. So I volunteered for the Air Force and they put us through a lot of different tests and I was, for some strange reason I was selected and I did my, you had to do fourteen hours before you got, went solo and I did my fourteen hours and it was just coming up lunchtime and the, I reported in and the, the head man of the station was there. ‘Oh, you’re, you’re ok. You passed.’ He said, ‘Come back after dinner and we’ll give you your next posting.’ And anyway, I told everybody I’d passed but went back after lunch and he said, ‘Look, I’m sorry. You just missed.’ And there was one, one instructor that I knew that I’d, didn’t do well with him because I didn’t like him and we weren’t getting on and I was flopping the plane down and [unclear] And he put in a bad word so I missed out. I felt, oh so disappointed. Anyhow, most of the course were, only a few were selected and I was put in charge of the group that was sent back to Rongotai and I was pretty upset and I thought, oh I’m going home. To hell with this. So when I got to, to Wellington I got all the, everybody’s papers out and I gave them away to the other bloke. I said, ‘I’m going home.’ So I, I just hopped on a train and went home. So I was absent without leave for two weeks and then a telegram come to my parent’s home saying I was to report immediately to Rongotai. They, they knew what had happened. I’d gone AWOL, you see with disappointment. But unfortunately, or it could have been fortunately, you don’t know because it, it put me back in the selection and you know, going on to next step. So the boys that I got on with they all went ahead. And, I was then, you know slowly coming, coming behind them. So that was it, and it was, it just went on from there. But there was a lot to it but I’m not going to talk about that. A lot to it. Anyway, the only thing, the one thing that, the one thing that counted was that I actually survived. I did. I was there, you know, when the war finished. I was, I was, I think I did my last, my last trip the day the war finished. I I when you, when you were on a bombing run and you dropped our bombs you took a photo. Everybody kept back and that photo was there and it gave them an idea where you, gave you an idea where the bombs actually dropped. Some of them were a mile away. But they didn’t want them all dropping in the one place anyhow. But anyhow the, I got back and we just went on from there. And you went at that, at that point they established the Empire Training Scheme where you were trained over a period as, and you started in Canada and you went to do a course and you went through the course but finally about three months or three weeks or something and when you finished you then waited until there was another one opened. So, you could be waiting for six weeks or a couple of months just, just on the station. You know, just working around the station doing the odd thing. And I did a lot of running in those days. I was a very fit man, running and weight lifting and other [unclear] So we went on from there and I eventually ended up in this particular flight and the, there was a sergeant in charge of it. His name, I’ll never forget it because he was part Yugoslav like myself. Ivan Yanovic and he, he went on to become quite an outstanding flyer. Well, one of the men did nearly fifty, over a fifty trips. But Ivan did, Ivan was on his, you did thirty. That was a tour of operations. Thirty trips. And then they asked for volunteers. They were short of crews and they asked for volunteers to do an extra five trips. So, Ivan volunteered like a lot of us did and he got, right on the thirty fourth he got shot down. It all started when someone went missing. It was strange how they, how the news went around so quickly that so and so had had it, and he was, he was lost. And had all sorts of stories about him. How, that they’d hung him and all sorts of things because you know you could understand the people that were being caught in the bombing how, how targets were all industrial targets that were, that were manufacturing for the war but the, poor Ivan he got it. So, Ivan Yanovic. A really fine man. Yeah. But there we go. That’s how it went on from there. You were, it was, it was just sheer luck. Every man I’ve spoken to that went through it they agreed with me that it was just sheer luck whether you got caught or not. You went over in a, in a group and the, you had every, every twentieth flight you had to do what they called, it was a line overlap. That meant you had to fly straight and level to take three photos and they put them together and that told the story of what was done in damage. But you, nobody wanted to line overlap because they knew that the people on the ground were looking for them. If they could get, get a person in their, their sights for just a short time they could bring them down. So that was it on my last one. My last one on Berchtesgaden was a line overlap so it was, that was like that and it was sheer, sheer luck or bad luck. Nothing different. But there we go. It was, that was the, the way it went and it was spread over quite a long period as I say waiting for a course that had to take a stand and doing its operational training. So you always think of it and it always comes back in memories how, how lucky you were. Just plain. Just plain luck. That was all there was to it but we, we had a, we had a fairly good career really, I suppose. And it was wonderful too. To have done that at all. The day that it finished I got up very early in the morning and I went down to what we called the flights. The bomb aimer’s section. I went in and all over the walls were the photos you’d taken because you took one automatically but the, as I say there was that one, one day in the month and that the twentieth day you did three in a row. A line overlap. Which meant flying straight and level between photos which was a dangerous, a really dangerous time because they could pick you up on the ground and they were waiting for that. So, ours is the, our last, our last trip was a line overlap. And I went to the flights this day. I took about seven or eight photos that I’d taken, they were just stuck up with, there were drawing pins on the all over the walls and I ripped out about seven or eight of mine and took them down and I, I kept them and, but the next day all of that stuff was destroyed. Everything was destroyed. They burned it all straightaway. And so I, I didn’t know but I had one of the few, few photos of the actual operation. So, it was, I didn’t learn about it until I was applying for a job and, I think it was in Panama or somewhere and they asked me if I had any flying experience. And I said, ‘Yes. I was with Bomber Command in the war and I have some photos.’ And they said, ‘Oh, could we see them?’ And they, I said, ‘Yes, I’ll go —’ I brought, I brought them in and I gave them to him but he happened to be, him and another man were writing a book on Bomber Command and this was the only photos they ever, ever got. Yes. So, I didn’t know. I gave them over to him and I got some of them back but some of them I don’t think I got back. But they couldn’t believe their luck that some of them hadn’t been destroyed. I’ve got them. I still got them. Still got the line overlap because those were, those were the days of, you know you, you just took things as they came. You knew that when you went down we were, in the morning as we were going out and we usually went at night but, but you would go down on a cold bloody morning and you’d be carrying all your junk with you. You’d get there and you would then put on, put on an outfit. Where you had slippers that you put on your feet and they had wires running up in to a tunic that you put on. And when you got in to the aircraft you plugged that in to the aircraft system and that kept you warm. They were heated otherwise you were bloody well frozen. So it was, and then in the air it even went down to your hands. Yeah. So you were, you were and of course even with that it was all open, you know. The air was pouring in. You had a chute there that you were to drop the Window in. They called this paper that they, silver paper, they called it Window. Have you ever heard that expression?
JB: No.
IP: Window. When it burst open it would have hundreds of these little sheets of, of silver paper and each one would show up on the on the screen and the people that were defending the place and whereas if you didn’t have it they could pick you up and send, you know probably eventually get you. And it was a risky business. But anyway, with Window it made a huge difference so you, you sat there and tried to put all your settings on. Oh, you had I think two big screens with all sets of switches and all a purpose to try and, you know get everything straight. And you had to put all these settings on to hopefully deliver your load where it was supposed to be but it was a hazardous bloody thing. So, you, you [pause] that was how it went. You went down. You had to, you had to be as you went down you’d be, ‘I wonder if this will be the last one or —’ ‘How, how we’ll get on tonight?’ They would, because the, at that time the, the old aircraft weren’t, weren’t that reliable and they could pack up and if your, if your oxygen packed up you didn’t know you were passing out. Didn’t know, it was just like going to sleep. The aircraft would then just fly on [pause] What’s that Rob?
RP: Just water for you dad.
IP: Pardon?
RP: Just water to clear, clear your throat.
[pause]
RP: There you are.
IP: Thank you.
RP: I’ll put it there.
IP: Ok.
IP: It was a wonderful feeling when you came back and you were able to have the run down the runway and you knew it was behind you. You’d get out and I’d sometimes, I’d sleep. On one occasion I slept for twelve hours. I slept for twelve hours. I was so tired and I suppose it was nervous tension as well. Another time I passed out. You don’t know it’s happening and I’d, I thought, I thought it was fear. I actually thought it was fear. I felt this strange feeling coming over me. I kept saying to myself, ‘They will never get me up here again. They’ll never get me up here again. They’ll never get me up here again.’ And immediately after that I passed out. So it was quite dark and the next thing I knew something was hitting my hand. I opened my eyes. It was daylight. I’d passed out when it was dark. It was daylight and I’d, I’d actually lost consciousness and laid there and when they got well clear they were on the home run and they were clear of it. They went, they went down to about ten thousand and I I recovered. I recovered at that ten thousand feet. I was probably breathing oxygen but it was, it was a strange, strange, strange experience. Especially, you see you never knew it was happening. You didn’t know it was happening and it just just happened but the [pause] but that was it. It was a, it was [unclear] you went up because that was your job and occasionally you’d get somebody would refuse to go back. Just occasionally. And the, they would then had take them out. So he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t be punished in any way. They would just take them out and get somebody else in but, they didn’t, they tried to keep the crews together because you all knew each other and that sort of thing. But it was a strange sort of existence. So, you got, you got over it and you were [pause] there were big losses but a lot of them were accidents. A lot of accidents and others they don’t know what happened. They just, they just disappeared but perhaps they were flying over the, you know in training flying over Northern Canada. Oh God. A vast area and even if they had found them they they couldn’t have reached them. But it was a pretty, pretty risky job. There you were you were lost in with the others and as I say they didn’t, there was no, no punishment if they, if you didn’t fly. If you refused to go. They just put you aside and you’d be, you’d eventually lose all rank and everything. But there it was. We, we stuck at it and did, worked to the end of the war anyway. Yeah. So that was it. That was the, that was the story really. So, I don’t know if that’s what you want me to tell you or —
JB: Definitely.
IP: Hey?
JB: Thank you.
IP: Yeah.
JB: That was lovely.
IP: Yeah.
JB: Yes
IP: So, we, we were lucky. We survived and you wondered how. I think of the real, the fine men that, really fine men that you know went missing and you know there was at the time they were, they made a lot of it but in no time they were soon forgotten. There was nothing. Nothing to be gained from it. Just to hopefully stay alive and you know, get on to another way of life and I, I don’t know what to say about it. There was a, an experience that I’d had and I I just wonder what about the poor kids. The poor young people, you know that were growing up. And I sometimes wonder why. Why they sent the young ones that had only turned twenty one. Why they sent them away quickly first. It seemed to be bloody unfair to me. They had no say in who was to go but they were, they were the first to be sent and if you didn’t, didn’t go you were sent to a special camp and you served a punishment. But it was so, to me looking back now it was so unfair that the young ones that had nothing to do with who was to go were the ones, the first to be sent. Only twenty one. Yeah. So, there we go. There it was. So, and of course with myself I didn’t. That was only after a while that I thought of flying and I thought gee it must be wonderful. You know. To fly. So I, I volunteered for the, for the Air Force. I’d already passed for crew of a Lancaster. But anyway, I applied and they gave me a, an opportunity to train as a pilot and as I say I only, I only just missed out. But anyway, if I’d have been successful I’d have been there within, dead within a year so what, what happened was I ended up still alive at the end of the war. I’d survived it. All those years. All those different places where you, you know where we went to and you had any had special travel and all that. So that was it. I think of it but I guess there’s a lot more to it than what I just told you. The, the doing the paperwork was, was an effort for me. For a lot of young people who were, you know trained in [unclear] they got through it very quickly but I had never had that training. I never went. I never went to what was called a secondary school. I left school Class 6. I never went to school again. Left school at fourteen had had no other [pause] I went to, went to a, oh do you think [unclear] accounts. I had no other education at all. It was, I guess at the, at the time they were, they were I had met before and interviewed who, oh somebody said to me, ‘Oh, why don’t you apply for pilot?’ I said, ‘Oh, I wouldn’t be no hope.’ They said, ‘Yeah. Give it a try. You don’t know unless you try.’ So, I thought oh well, I’ll try. So I, I applied and I went to this interview and the, that’s right I was married and they said, ‘Is your wife expecting a child?’ And I said, ‘No, she’s not.’ And the chap who was interviewing me said, ‘Oh, we’ll give you a call and let you know how you got on.’ And I went away I thought not a hope. That was it. Then I got a call to say that I had passed. Yeah. So I went, even though I’d never been to even a secondary school. And so I went on from there and I had to probably work a lot harder on it, on the book work part of it but from there you went, went to a flying training and once there quite a number of steps that you took. You would go on for bloody years because you were put in, put in to, in to a class or a group or and they would you had to take your turn where there was a vacancy for that particular group. Sometimes it would be two or three months. But, you know. So you’d be on the station just doing, you know just doing work around the station before you went back on to the flying again. So that was it. It was, it just you know happened and I don’t know. I can’t tell, I wouldn’t say whether I wanted it or didn’t want it or had thought of getting out of it but that that actually never entered my mind. Except the one occasion when I ran out of oxygen and I thought they will never get up here again [laughs] but that was lack of oxygen. But there we are. So that was it until the end and the, the last one, my last operation was the end of, right the end of the war and I did what was called a line overlap. And that was when you took those three photos and you had a real good picture of everything that was going on. But there we are. You, you do think of it at times and wonder about it. There we are. I hoped, I hoped it would never happen but we couldn’t do anything about it. But there we are.
JB: Ok.
IP: So that’s it love.
JB: That’s about it. Thank you.
IP: There’s nothing much I can tell you.
JB: Thank you very much. That was perfect.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ian Petrie
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jennifer Barraclough
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APetrieIFP180926, PPetrieIFP1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:38:14 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal New Zealand Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Ian Petrie found himself struggling to find employment in recession hit New Zealand when he saw the advertisement to fly with the RNZAF. He couldn’t contemplate the thrill of flight at a time when opportunity for such travel was rare. He was unsuccessful in his attempt to become a pilot and went absent without leave out of disappointment. He eventually rejoined the training programme and was posted to the UK. He was very aware of the casualty rates and the fact he survived purely by luck. On his last operation it was his aircraft that took the line overlap photos. He went to the hut the next morning where the photos were displayed and took his own as mementoes just before they were all destroyed.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
New Zealand
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
101 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
RAF Ludford Magna
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/719/10114/ABorthwickS180306.2.mp3
2ff5ec8d7ba556eaacdc93f61495839b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Borthwick, Sidney
S Borthwick
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sidney Borthwick (b. 1925). He flew operations as an air gunner with 101 Squadon.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Borthwick, S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: Ok. So, there we are. So, this is Andrew Sadler interviewing Sidney Borthwick at his home in Staines on Tuesday the 5th of March 2018. Sidney, can you, you were telling me about how you signed up in to the Air Force. Can you tell me about that?
[pause]
SB: It’s a bit indistinct now but there were recruitment areas in every town weren’t they? Staines. No. Where was it?
Other: West Hartlepool?
SB: But I’ve always had something wrong with my left arm. A tumour on the bone shaft of my left arm or something. The kind of thing that when you were in the playground at school. They’d just maybe let you out of lessons and you were all mad and you were chasing each other and they used to grab me and it was right where this tumour was on my, on my left arm. And it was like something on the bone that when they did things like that it wobbled about. I’ve still got it [laughs] It’ll only be, it’s long forgotten now you know but I was in the playground. I had to be very careful in the rough and tumble of [pause] what was that famous thing we used to play? Tig or something like that.
Other: Tag.
SB: Tag, and —
Other: And did this affect you for going in to the —
SB: Well, they used to grab my left, my arm you see and under there somewhere there was like a nodule or something. A tumour on the bone shaft of my left arm.
Other: But did that affect you joining the Air Force?
SB: Well, yeah. Oh, yeah. You had to keep your mouth closed about that, you know. So I think I probably went somewhere in this area to volunteer and they thought [pause] So I thought, well I’ll go to another place. There was another place. I forget the name of it now. I’ll go up there. I went in. Wanted to volunteer, you know. Here I am. ‘Yeah. Yeah. Fine. You’re in.’ [laughs] So a lesson in life that sometimes you’ve got to [unclear] [laughs] Yeah. So, yeah.
AS: And how old were you then? Was this before the war or after it had started?
SB: Doesn’t say anything in here, does it?
Other: You’ve always said that you lied about you age.
SB: I haven’t seen this in ages.
Other: You always said, dad that you lied about your age. If you had to be eighteen you were only seventeen but you put your age forward to the point that I always remember mum always said she never really knew what you were at a birthday because you kept it up.
[pause]
SB: Sergeant Brooking. I wonder how he is nowadays.
[pause]
AS: Can you tell me anything about the training that you did? How did you come to become a gunner?
SB: How come?
AS: How did you come to become a gunner?
SB: Well —
[door chimes interrupt recording]
SB: If you volunteered. A lot of people said, you know. ‘I want to be up there.’ You see. But I wasn’t like that. I knew I had limitations so I thought well there’s plenty of appendages on there, you know. You can be a bomb aimer, a mid-upper gunner and all the rest of it. So I didn’t cast my line and I always lived with the thought that one day they were going to walk up to me and say, ‘Are you Sid Borthwick?’ And I’d say, ‘Yes.’ And he’d say, ‘Yeah. Well, we know all about you. Bugger off.’[laughs] So, yeah I think I went [pause] [unclear] place. What’s it called? I forget now.
[pause]
SB: So, I learned pretty quickly when to keep my mouth shut and things like that. You, you lived in fear when your turn would come. They had a thing that spun around. I forget what it was but it was part, part of your volunteering. You passed these things and I thought I don’t think I’ll ever get through that but yeah. Be like mum. Or be like dad, keep mum. So, the less you say that can [pause] they could put up against you afterwards the better.
AS: Can you tell me about the training you had?
SB: Training?
AS: Yes.
SB: Well, yes. It’s all written down in the book.
[pause]
SB: Units at which served. ACRC. Aircrew Recruitment. St Johns Wood. In brackets I’ve put Lord’s. So, is there a big err St Johns Wood? What is the name of that?
AS: The Cricket Ground. Lord’s Cricket Ground.
SB: 4th of January 1944. And then I went to Bridlington, Bridgnorth. Stormy Down. And then Ludford Magna. Christ almighty. Catterick. Christ, I was up in Blackpool. I remember that. I had a good time up there.
AS: Can you tell me where you were posted?
[pause]
SB: I was at ACRC. At obviously, Air Crew Recruitment, St Johns Wood and I’ve got here Lord’s. 4th of January ’44. So there must have been a place up there where you went. [unclear] Upper Heyford. Scampton. Bottesford. Ludford Magna. Catterick. Kirkham. Blackpool. West Kirby. Demob. Off.
AS: Can you remember how you came to be a gunner?
SB: Capabilities. You know in your own mind. You know what you could take on without [pause] Although I always remember at school I was always in the back row. Of course, it gives you good pretensions that, you know. I don’t know what your school was like. Your headmaster sat down there and in the front row you had all the dummies as we used to call them, you know. People as thick as two planks. They were, you can imagine him standing there thinking how am I going to drum anything in to this lot? And I knew from that, the seating in the classroom how I was doing, you know. If you got yourself in the back row away from, the master used to sit in the front with the big cane didn’t he to see if you were awake. And I knew from that what I was capable of or what I thought I was capable of. So I might have diminished myself in certain respects but it gave me a line that I wanted to be above possibly. And without any, what did you call it educationally? You got secondary education, was it? The first. Secondary.
[pause]
SB: Yeah. I wasn’t going to set the world on fire.
AS: Can you tell me anything about the training you did to become a gunner?
[pause]
SB: It’s not very clear to me actually.
AS: Can you remember where you were? Where you were stationed? You said, you said something. You read from your logbook you were in Scampton. Can you tell us something about that?
[pause]
SB: Yes. This this is the book they give you when you join. You join up. Certificates of qualification etcetera. [pause] And then it goes all the way with you through. Red ink for night flying. Blue ink for daytime. Stormy Down. Yeah. Old Anson. I remember that.
AS: Could you tell us about that?
[pause]
SB: I couldn’t get on quick enough. It was, it was like taking a lad from the streets and I’m talking now a long time ago.
[telephone ringing]
[pause]
AS: Did you go on many missions? Can you tell us about some of those?
[pause]
SB: What? In the real war you mean?
[pause]
SB: Do you remember Concorde?
AS: Yes.
SB: Concorde BOAE. Passenger proving flight. Two hours up the Bay of Biscay. That was Concorde. A brand new aeroplane. [pause] ACRC. That was the old Bridlington. Then to Bridgnorth. Then to Stormy Down. Upper Heyford. Scampton. Bottesford. Ludford Magna. Catterick. Kirkham. Blackpool. Training. I was shoved off to India when they’d finished with me.
AS: Can you tell me about that?
[pause]
AS: What did you do after the war? Did you manage to settle back in to civilian life?
SB: Yeah.
AS: Was it difficult or easy?
SB: I’ve got in here Blackpool. Retraining [pause] as an equipment assistant. So it sounds like my flying days are over. Remustering training because when, when the war ended they wanted, well the lads who had been up where ever fighting the war. Serving. They all wanted to come back to England. Be in Blighty again. So lots of people like me, probably midway let him go on. So, the next thing I know I’m up in Ceylon. I’m posted overseas. Mind you it was wonderful. You’d never see [laughs] Never see them in your lifetime. Sitting here kind of thing. It’s the place to be. You see the ladies picking [pause] oh what the hell do they call them? Actually, you know the things are actually growing up there. You go from the, one day dropping bloody bombs all over the place. A couple of weeks later you’re in a foreign country. Why? Well, those lads had been up there so they’re due to come home and we need to replace them, don’t we? Yes. Off you go then. Next. [unclear] you’re sitting ladies in the, where was it? Ceylon? [pause] And they’re picking, yeah what the hell was it? What is tea like? The plant. A shrub isn’t it? [pause] Mind you, for a single bloke it was a good life.
AS: What were you doing in Ceylon? Why did you go to Ceylon?
SB: Because the government sent me there, I suppose. I didn’t volunteer for it. I just, as I say it was the time of life like that. The next thing I know I’m sitting on a bloody great liner with my feet over the edge. ‘What rank are you?’ ‘Flight sergeant.’ ‘Right. Well, you see all these squaddies sitting on this liner with you? Right. Tell them to get their feet back in. Inboard. They must not sit on the edge with their feet dangling over.’ [laughs] I thought, well I’ll tell you it was the way of it was a weird old thing, yeah. A couple of days later you land somewhere and the ladies are picking tea and things like that.
AS: Can you tell me anything about the Lancaster because you were on Lancasters, weren’t you?
SB: I was on Lancasters. Yes. A rear gunner on a Lancaster.
[pause]
Other: Can I do you another coffee?
AS: No. I’m fine thank you very much.
Other: Yeah? Can I switch this off, dad? It’s quite warm. Can I take your tea?
AS: Can you tell me anything about your squadron reunions that you, can you tell me anything about your squadron reunions?
[pause]
SB: I don’t think there are squadron reunions.
[pause]
AS: Can you remember being at Scampton, because I think you were at Scampton, weren’t you? In Lincolnshire.
SB: What?
AS: Scampton. Were you in Scampton?
[pause]
SB: It’s funny when you look at these things. Things you, because the Dutch refused to cooperate with the Germans. They were starved.
AS: And you went and dropped some food for them, didn’t you?
SB: Yeah.
AS: Can you tell me about that?
SB: Well, as I remember it we just went on to the runway, opened the bomb doors, right and rammed in as much stuff as you could. Not giving a lot of thought to what it is and we just kept doing that and then said to the skipper, ‘Pile on a bit more. Not a lot but a little bit more.’ And these because the bomb doors came down like that kept closing them down. Closing them down. Closing them down. Closing and they kept ramming stuff in to give to these people who were starving because the Germans, the Germans wouldn’t give them any food, would they? Because, because the Dutch refused to cooperate with the Germans they were starved themselves. Yeah.
[pause]
SB: I often wonder because we never kept, I mean if you flew all this time with all these people when you were demobbed that was it. Well, really —
[pause]
AS: Good.
[pause]
AS: You’ve got a good number of videos about the war, I think.
SB: “Imperial War Museum. The Official Collection. Royal Air Force at War.” Mind you, you’ve got to have plenty to, I used to have these. Yeah. There’s the lads bombing up. The front turret of a Lancaster. Crew positions of a Lancaster. [pause] I’m not quite sure if that’s my position there. Rear turret in a Lancaster. Yeah. [pause] “The story of the Lancaster bomber.”
AS: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Sidney Borthwick
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABorthwickS180306
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:40:45 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Sri Lanka
England--London
England--Blackpool
England--Lancashire
England--Cheshire
Netherlands
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney enlisted on 4th January 1944 at the Air Crew Reception Centre, Lord’s cricket ground. He was accepted despite a tumour on his left arm. Sidney was a rear gunner on Lancasters. After trained at Blackpool, he served at RAF Bottesford, RAF Bridgnorth, RAF Bridlington, RAF Catterick, RAF Kirkham, RAF Ludford Magna, RAF Scampton, RAF Stormy Down and RAF West Kirby. He recalls operation Manna. When the war ended, Sidney had an overseas posting to Ceylon.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1944-01-04
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
101 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Bottesford
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Catterick
RAF Kirkham
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Scampton
RAF Stormy Down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/10351/PFraserDK1607.2.jpg
828f411fd5d597dfada38965fb175eb1
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/10351/AFraserDK170906.1.mp3
6e80c8e10b6e853c39c6a101482fe2b7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fraser, Donald Keith
D K Fraser
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fraser, DK
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Donald Keith Fraser DFM (1924 - 2022, 1566621 Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, photographs and service material. The collection also contains an interview with Sylvia Fraser, his wife. He flew a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 101 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald Keith Fraser and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 5th of September 2017 and we’re in Whitchurch talking to Donald Fraser whom we’ve, DFM whom we’ve spoken to before. But in this case there there’s a particular interest that we haven’t really had the opportunity of covering which is how the aircrew got on with the ground crew and what was happening on the ground. So, Donald what were your impressions of ground crew?
DF: Well, my impressions of ground crew firstly I’d like to say about the whole ground staff rather than the ground crew. They were very good and the fact that on a station the size of Ludford the total personnel would be around about two thousand five hundred out of which two hundred and fifty or thereabouts would be ground crew. It was about ten percent. And it was that ten percent that got the most publicity and the credit for what was happening.
CB: Aircrew.
DF: Aircrew.
CB: Yeah.
DF: But without the support of the ground staff this would not have been possible because the dedication and the help that they gave to the aircrews to make sure that everything they needed to go and do whatever they were going to do and come back needed their help. And also, to make sure that everything they required was there for them to have the best chance of returning home. In twenty four hours most stations had something happening. They never stopped. There was always some work to do and one of the one’s that I think done a marvellous job was the catering staff whereby they had to produce two hundred, two hundred and fifty meals at close notice to make sure that the aircrew again had this before they went on their operation. And this may be changed later or earlier and they always had to have some ready which they did, ready for us to have. And this went through the whole staff. Parachute staff had to make sure that that was all perfectly and had all been checked and so on and including the staff that worked on the, the [pause] I was going to say the ground crew who operated the bombing up of the aircraft. A very important job but a very dangerous job because these were heavy bombs and they could cause quite severe damage if they fell off or came in contact with staff themselves. Also, the staff that filled the petrol into the aircraft their selves they also had a hard job. This all had to be done on time before the aircraft could move and the bowsers held two, two thousand five hundred gallons of petrol. Each aircraft that was being fully loaded took two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons. And these, all jobs, remember that all these jobs had to be done outside. The aircraft all the time stayed in the open so in the middle of summer they had the high temperatures to take care of and all that. In the winter it was the reverse. Snow, sleet, temperatures below zero but they never seemed to worry about that. They’d done the job. Made a lovely job of that and made sure that all was ready for again the aircraft ready for taking off as it should be.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
DF: Yes.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. Restart now.
DF: Most, most of the stations, well the aircrew were flying from were built as during the war for [pause] to use against the Germans they and as long as the runways and the, anything to do with flying was correct I think it was fair to say that the staffing and that was forgotten about in such that the accommodation for on most of the stations was Nissen huts. One hut for a flying, one AA aircrew in each Nissen hut. The only heating they had was one stove in the middle of the room and the chimney went up through the top. In the summer they were very hot and we had visitors such as field mice and earwigs and they caused quite a lot of problems to us. In the winter we had the opposite. Cold. Imagine coming in in the early mornings without any heating on and then if there was any condensation it dripped down the curves of the Nissen huts on to your beds. Not very, very conditions, very good conditions to be under. The toilet and washing facilities were possibly anywhere from twenty yards to fifty yards away from the Nissen huts their self and most of the time the water was cold other than warm. And finally, the messes. The sergeant’s mess and that was at least a half a mile away from the Nissen huts. Also being in a big Nissen hut and with no paths to them that hadn’t been made because of the timescale and the necessity to get everything ready for the squadron flying. And at Ludford they got the name of Mudford rather than Ludford because the normal run of things was rubber boots was the only thing you could use to be safe to take from one place to another. Stop there a minute.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: I’ll ask you the question. You spoke about drips of condensation. Why was that?
DF: Because there was no insulation around the double layer of metal round the Nissen hut itself. It was very unusual and very cold to be under these conditions.
CB: And that’s why it was so hot in the summer.
DF: It was hot in the summer also.
CB: Right.
DF: The conditions were —
CB: Ok. Yes, thanks.
[recording paused]
DF: And I want to talk about our own ground crew. The squadron policy was that after a crew had done a number of operations, probably four, five, then they were given their own aircraft and their own ground crews to look after them. And as far as we were concerned we, after completed seven operations we went on leave on the 16th of October, returning a week later and then we were told by the CO that a batch of new aircraft was coming in to the squadron and one of them was for our crew. X2. So X2 became our new Lancaster. I was delighted because to have a new aircraft where the engines hadn’t been in any way in trouble with any people not knowing what they were doing or some, from the start it was ours engines. We would look after them and make sure they weren’t over revved or such like and that that so when we came back off leave we were told that and I said to Wally, our —
Other: Pilot.
DF: Pilot. I said, ‘I think we’ll go down and have a talk with the ground staff who are looking, going to look after our aircraft.’ So, we asked where the standing area was and they told it was near the perimeter fence line just on the corner. So down we went and we said who we were. We’d come to have a chat with them about the future and our aircraft of X2. The ground crew were made up of five people. Four flight, four engineers, fitters and one person in charge. Mac. He was a flight sergeant. So, he said, first of all, ‘Where do you come from?’ I said, ‘Scotland.’ He said, ‘I know that but where in Scotland?’ ‘Fife.’ ‘Oh, that’s alright then.’ He said to the lads, ‘We can live with that, can’t we?’ I said to him, ‘Where do you come from?’ He said, ‘Lanark.’ I said, ‘Oh, that’s alright then. We’re both not far apart. We’re both in the central belt so we’ll get on fine together.’ So, he said, ‘I’m sorry for the state we’re in.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘All, our overalls are dirty and wet and that. But —’ he said, ‘We’ve been waiting for the new aircraft.’ I said, ‘What difference does that make? A new aircraft.’ He said, ‘Well, when we get the new aircraft here the aircraft face away from the fence line and what we do is we wash our overalls in a bucket of petrol and then hang them up on the fence and when new ones start up the engines the heat from the engines it dries our clothes. So we were waiting for your aircraft to come here so we can get our clothes dry, and that.’ And he then said, ‘Well, what do you do? Are you a crew that work as a team?’ I said, ‘Yes, very much so.’ I said, ‘What about you? Do you do the same as the ground crew?’ He said, ‘Yes, we’re very determined. Our main reason for being here is to make sure that this aircraft, any aircraft we have is fully looked after and ready to fly when the pilot wants it.’ So, that’s good. And he says, ‘Have a look in our little hut at the back there and you’ll see what I mean.’ So we went around, had a look in his hut and there was a mixture of components for aircraft. Wheels. There were two or three wheels, there was parts of undercarriage, there was hydraulic parts, everything you could think of was stored in there. I said, ‘Why would you get all this here?’ he said, ‘Well, we brought a lot of it with us from our last station but every time aircraft is going for breakup we try to take off whatever’s useable in case we need it to put on aircraft because if we don’t it takes so long to get new parts from headquarters that the aircraft would be out of air —
Other: Condition.
DF: Condition for a few days. So, we make sure that we have all these parts available and we can keep the aircraft in the skies.’ ‘Well, that’s good.’ So he says, ‘Can we work as a team?’ And I said, ‘Well, I think we will do. I think you’ve made a very good start to help us. We’ll do that.’ So he said, ‘Well, we’re expecting the aircraft to be in tomorrow morning.’ I said, ‘Oh, that’s good.’ ‘But,’ he said, ‘We should have to look through it all to make sure it is all in the right order.’ I said, ‘Well, what about if ops is on?’ He said, ‘Well, that, it will go on ops if ops is on, you know. It will be your aircraft for tomorrow night but we’ll try and do what we can beforehand to make sure that everything has been checked.’ He said, ‘It should come alright from headquarters but sometimes there’s odd things that doesn’t work properly.’ So, the next day operations. It was our eighth operation to Leipzig and the aircraft did come in about lunchtime so the ground staff had [two to three] hours to look at it. They’d done their best. They said afterwards, ‘We haven’t hadn’t done it all. But we think we’ve done all the main things so it’s, as far as we were concerned useful to go in the air.’ So that’s what happened. We unfortunately found it started up all right, we got in to the air fine but after a time we had certain troubles. Electric troubles. Also troubles with the communication between staff, crew staff within the aircraft. So we decided that in that condition we couldn’t make it to the main target so decided to bomb a small target in Brussels in Belgium which was a operational workshop for the Germans. So, we bombed that and returned to base. When we got back the crew and ground staff was waiting for us and said, ‘You’re back early.’ We told them what had happened. ‘I told you.’ Mac said, ‘I told you we might not get it done. Now, I know what we’ve got to do. We’ll have it ready for you tomorrow.’ So that was the finish of that one. We continued helping him as far as we could because we had come to an agreement that when we came back from ops if there was any problems that we’d leave a note in the aircraft saying check this and check that. Or that if we had used the oxygen bottles or that also to make sure they would replace them because I think one of the problems was that the checking of these things especially the oxygen bottles was done by shaking it and there could be a spot in it or they could be almost full. So by getting them to replace them as long as they’d been used, to replace it made sure that there was oxygen there because these bottles were supposed to last fifteen minutes but I think in some cases they’d been used the [pause] when we’d had the aircraft the previous night or previous time ops was on and they’d been checked right enough but just by shaking them and there was probably only a few minutes of oxygen left in the bottles. So that alone was a good thing when you had your own aircraft because we would make sure that tiny things appeared to be small things but probably very important things at the end of the day. Everything went well for a long time and then our ground crew was helping us all they could. We came up to one of the worst Berlin raids of the war. It was on 17th of December and it was called Black Thursday. The problem was thick fog on return from Berlin all up the east coast of England and the, I’m not going into full detail on this but we found that there was no place near our own station to land. We were sent up to Hull. Hull. And there we came across the barrage balloons which had never been, well we thought they hadn’t been brought down. Thye were still at five thousand feet. They had been brought down but we didn’t know that and we took, we come off the coast thinking we’d be inside and there would be no balloons there. Anyway, we got a check from manned beacons saying that they knew where we were but they couldn’t see us and one asked subsequently to put up a bit of a searchlight up for us which we said yes. The searchlight instead of coming up in to the air went along the ground and what the pilot and I saw was, in front of us was a two story farmhouse and how, what happened after that, we don’t know why it should have happened but what must have been dist, a further distance than we thought because as soon as we saw it the first thing we saw was the house by fully, engines up to the full and pulling, two of us pulling the stick back then shoot up and we managed to take that. It was just like going over, taking a horse over a fence that he didn’t want to go over. And our rear gunner said what he saw was, first of all he was forced forward on to his guns which was funny because he was looking at the back of the aircraft, not the front, what he saw was chickens and hens running across the farmyard. So, we decided that, well we knew what height we were at. We were at four or five feet. Actually, when we pulled up our rear wheel caught the garden gate and —
Other: The farm gate it was, wasn’t it?
DF: The farm gate and that. So we decided we would make our way back to base which we did and as we were travelling along our bomb aimer said, ‘Oh, I’ve seen something. It’s the café we often have our cup of coffee in the morning at the station.’ So then we knew where we were so we decided this time we were about two hundred feet. We knew what height we were at but decided to ask base if we could come down. They said, ‘If you can you can try but we would suggest that you won’t have much chance.’ Anyway, we decided we would do that but in Lincolnshire at that time there were so many —
Other: Stations.
DF: Fields, stations in there round about that the three mile outside rim [pause] Distance from the aircraft outside ring were so close that they overlapped and as we were coming around thinking we were still going to land at our own station we had missed and crossed over on to the next station’s outer ring which was Wickenby and again we managed to see the airfield. Very risky. But we managed to get down there and we were on the ground and called up our own station saying we’ve landed. They said, ‘You haven’t landed. You haven’t landed here. Where are you?’ We looked at each other and said, ‘Well, we’re on the ground, I think.’ And then we got another voice coming on saying, ‘This is Wickenby Airfield. We think you’ve arrived. Arrived with us. We don’t know but there’s something landed on our runway. Stay where you are. We can’t see you. We’ll come and pick you up when we can.’ Which they did. We had the night there. The aircraft in the morning was still where we had left it. We decided we would start it up and take it home. We started the engines up. They ran for two or three minutes and then begin to cut out, each one in turn. That’s all the fuel we had. So, we had to be refuelled and got back to base. When we got back to base Mac, who was in charge, ‘Where have you been?’ I told him what had happened and said could he have a look at our tail wheel? ‘Have a look at your tail wheel? Why?’ I said, ‘Well, I think we caught it on your farm gate.’ He said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘Yes. We caught it on the garden gate.’ ‘Well, the next time you want to go through a gate make sure you open the thing first.’ That was all that he said to us.
Other: It wasn’t quite as polite as that, was it?
CB: Is that right? [laughs] Yes.
DF: Yes. He said, ‘We think we heard you go across last night. You were late. We think we heard you pass over the airfield.’ He thought it was us anyway because of the noise of the aircraft but, he said, ‘The rest of my crew said it wasn’t and then we heard an aircraft had crashed in the higher slopes past Louth. So we decided it must have been you and we went to bed.’ So that was that. Stop there.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: So when you landed after an op then you talked to the ground crew. What forms had to be filled in?
DF: Well, as far as we were concerned there was no proper form. There was a piece of paper which sometimes there was no ground crew there. Other times there was. If there wasn’t we would just leave another paper on the, in the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
DF: They would pick it up when they came in the morning. If there was we just put in likely, probably, “Have a look at the hydraulics,’ or ‘The wheels are taking a long time to be pulled up or put down,’ or, ‘We had trouble with the communication line between us and the rear gunner.’ Or ‘His heated suit’s not working.’ That’s the sort of thing we put on there. Just common things.
CB: So how would it be that sometimes the ground crew met you when you came back. Other times they didn’t. Why was that?
DF: I think it was just, I don’t think they had need to meet us at all. But our ground crew seemed to want to have somebody there just to make sure the aircraft did come in and what was required of it.
CB: Yes. I was just thinking that you must have had equipment failures or various little challenges on the way. How was that communicated? Was it you and the pilot or the pilot or just you?
DF: That was done usually at briefing.
CB: Which followed the —
DF: Which followed the —
CB: The landing.
DF: The landing. Yeah.
CB: Right.
DF: At the briefing. Then —
CB: With the intelligence officer.
DF: That’s right and all the crew was together so all the crew had their say. And I’d probably say, ‘Well, we had trouble with — ‘This and that and I think the air gunner would say, ‘Yes. My suit wasn’t working.’
CB: Yeah.
DF: Or the navigator had some problems. But each member of the crew told the —
CB: Right.
DF: Intelligence officer.
CB: Ok.
DF: What the problems were and also they told the crews there, intelligence people what they’d seen on the route.
CB: Ah.
DF: If they’d seen —
CB: Yeah.
DF: An aircraft go down, if there was any parachutes from it and if we could have a check where it was then that probably helped the intelligence people to know where the aircraft had to come down and things like that. And that was all said at the debriefing which could take up to a half an hour and an hour sometimes depending on how much damage or such was done to the aircraft.
CB: At the debriefing with the intelligence officer, it was always an intelligence officer doing it, was it?
DF: Yes.
CB: Or sometimes an NCO?
DF: No. It was always, as far as we were concerned always an intelligence officer.
CB: And what was —
DF: Sometimes male. Sometimes female.
CB: Yes. What was the process? You go in and sit down. Then —
DF: You’d go and sit.
CB: The captain starts it does he?
DF: Yes. You go in to the briefing room and you were called up. One left. The next one come. Funnily enough we were landing nearly always first. We had a technique that when we came across the English coast normally we would, from there the pilot would get on and say, ‘Permission to land.’ Even though we were probably thirty miles away. And we got that permission and that gave us the first chance because you were stacked up if you were later.
CB: Oh right. Gamesmanship job.
DF: Yeah. So, I think it did, it meant that they got to know us, I think.
CB: Yeah.
DF: But we, by this time we were getting to be the crew that had got near to the end of their operations so they lifted that from us you know and I think nearly every time we were first down which gave us the first choice of the briefing.
CB: Very good.
DF: So —
CB: Ok. Hang on.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. Starting again.
DF: Yes. Well, what we were talking about was the 17th of December. Christmas day came along. Not much later. We had flown the night before and arrived in to the station about 5 or 6 o’clock in the morning and we were debriefed and then went to, to bed. Getting up about 1 o’clock for Christmas dinner and that. Afterwards, I decided that I hadn’t seen any of the ground crew so I thought I’d take a walk out to the aeroplane. And when I got there there was Mac standing in front of X2 and the first thing he said, ‘Isn’t she beautiful?’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘The aircraft. Isn’t she a lovely machine?’ I said, ‘Yes, she is.’ And I said, he said to me rather, ‘How many ops have you done on, with her now?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ He said, ‘Well, I can tell you. You’ve done twelve.’ I said, ‘Oh, you’re keeping note.’ He said, ‘Yeah, because the last few aircraft I had most of them had only done one or two and that was the end of them but you you’ve done twelve on it so we’re getting along nicely.’ So, I said, ‘Well, I just came to see what was happening. Have you had a look at the hydraulics yet?’ ‘Yeah. I’ve repaired them.’ And then by this time our pilot, Wally he came up. He said, ‘I thought I’d find you here.’ So he said, ‘Is the aircraft being checked over?’ I said, ‘Yes, it is. It’s ready for an air test.’ He said, ‘Well, how about us doing it today? If ops are on tomorrow we’ll be alright because I don’t think there will be on Christmas day.’ So we decided to call up Control, got permission to do an air test and I said to Mac, ‘Are you coming with us?’ He said, ‘No. I haven’t got a parachute.’ I said, ‘Neither have we.’ So, he said, ‘Oh well, I’ll come.’ So we got off and Lincoln Cathedral was only about twenty miles away so we went over the top of it and we looked down at it. A marvellous sight to see the Cathedral there standing on the top of the ridge and Lincoln below it, you know and I said to Mac, ‘How about take my seat and have a look around?’ So, he did. And I think you could see tears coming from his eyes. And I thought then well we probably wondered what the war was about but seeing that I think we knew it was the right thing to do. So, we carried on and done our check. Everything was well, landed and when we got out we hugged each other. And then we decided it was alright. Come away from the aircraft and that, that was Christmas Day, you know.
CB: But how did it effectively, that you just agreed with you and the ground crew that it was ok.
DF: Yes.
CB: You didn’t have to fill in anything to do?
DF: No. No. No. No.
CB: Because it’s a mixture of pedantic form filling.
DF: Yes.
CB: And —
DF: But on this occasion, no.
CB: Yeah.
DF: As long as the, there I gave you. It was right.
CB: Right.
DF: On the thing so then the [pause] I think the next day we were, we were at Berlin and the next thing that happened, well during January and February things went well. There was no problems at all with that and the crews, the ground crew had done all they could to help us all the way through and the great group of lads done their best for us. I think the next time was on the 1st of March. Ludford was under three feet of snow and there was ops on that evening. So, by lunchtime we knew there was operations on. So, there was a plan that we needed to clear four hundred yards of runway so everybody on the station irrespective of the size or type or anything were expected to give a hand to clear it with shovels and spades and that except one and everybody did it except one man. One. A Canadian. A flight lieutenant. He said, ‘No. It’s not my job.’ So anyway, everybody put their hand in to it and they managed to clear that amount. That was the plan was that if they could do that the aircraft could take off and they would be refuelled and bombed up at Wickenby which was alright.
CB: Just down the road.
DF: Just down the road. So that’s what happened. We were the first plane to take off. Managed it. The two after that managed it. The fifth, three after that managed it. The fifth didn’t. It swerved off the runway into the bank of snow and completely stopped any more from taking off. That was four aircraft which was important because we were the only aircraft using ABC and the result was that the four of them, that again the raid was to Berlin. It meant that four 101 aircraft was in the line of the aircraft travelling out and travelling back and gave sufficient coverage to make it safe for the rest of the aircraft. Otherwise, I don’t think the raid would have taken off without some cover at that time. And we landed again at, back at Wickenby and came back to base two days later. But the following morning the CO came on and said to the whole staff about the excellent job they had done the night before. Congratulated them all and said it was a success because the aircraft had taken got off and that, you know. Except the one Canadian and we heard later that the CO had taken him out at midnight and made him work two hours clearing snow while he went back to bed. That was our last operation on the 1st of March. And we stayed on the station for another two or three days after that because the new rear turret by this time had been put on the aircraft and we were the first one to use it on that raid.
CB: This is with the 2.5.
DF: 2.5s.
CB: Yeah.
DF: And the, after that we stayed on to air test it for high elevation flying and that and we stayed on two days on the station to do that. So, and after that I went down to see Mac and his squad before we left the station because we were then finished operations and when he, when he saw us, he said, ‘Well, what are you doing after you have some leave and that?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t know yet. I’ll probably be instructing.’ So, he said, ‘Why can’t you be an instructor here?’ I said, ‘Well, I can’t. I have to do what I’m told to do, you know.’ He said, ‘Well, you could do it from here because a lot of these young people coming through need some help, you know.’ I said, ‘Well, I can’t do anything about that.’So, he said, ‘Well, if you do another tour we’ll be there to help you again.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s fair enough. Hopefully, it will be six months from now.’ You know. So that’s how we left it. But there’s one thing I hadn’t said yet was that we had an engine failure on one of the operations. I think operation sixteen. It didn’t show up when we were flying but when we come back we had been damaged by flak and that and somewhere when they checked the engines over decided that they were too badly damaged from flak even though it was still running so it had to be replaced. It was replaced and when we started it up it was running, slow running but was far too high. It was very strong and and that. It wasn’t cycling down. Just a low rev.
CB: What’s your low, slow running rev rate? Revs.
DF: I couldn’t tell you that off hand.
CB: Roughly.
DF: Roughly it was very very slow. Just ticking over, and it wouldn’t come down to that so I said to the ground crews, ‘You’ll have to check that over.’ And they said, ‘Well, does it make any difference?’ I said, ‘Yes. It could make a big difference. The difference between the time that it stands on the, getting to the take off point and —'
[telephone ringing]
CB: We’ll stop there. Just a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: And what
CB: I mean what —
DF: With us —
CB: What causes an engine to need to be replaced.
DF: Just if it’s really badly damaged and the insides of the engines were, you know the whole thing.
CB: Damaged by flak.
DF: Damaged by flak or damaged by —
CB: Fighter.
DF: Yes. Or on fire.
CB: Oh.
DF: Again, the same thing. Either flak or that you know. That, and of course if you use a fire extinguisher on there then it goes all through the engines. Then it is a replacement engine.
CB: So, in case of the problem with the Lanc at the BMF what were the sorts of faults? They’re talking about some kind of swarf what sort of faults would you find in a Merlin engine?
DF: Difficult to say but I think the lack, probably the lack of oil in the working in the engines itself that, you know the insides were all cut separately out and I think the wearing away of that by the lack of fuel, lack of —
CB: Oil.
DF: Oil and things like that. That sort of thing. That’s the most common thing.
CB: What would that be? Low pressure oil pump. Or —
DF: Probably that. Not pressure of the —
CB: Or an oil leak.
DF: Probably either. Yeah.
CB: So the case of the two where you had to have them changed what was the cause to the —
DF: Well, one was fire in the engine which everything was more or less ruined from that point of view and the other one as I say was the one that was hit by flak but it didn’t show on the outside of the engine or the working of the engine but it did. It was then decided they would replace it. But as I was saying the slow running, it’s on again now, is it?
CB: Yes [pause] We’re running.
DF Good. The slow running was far too high.
CB: Yeah.
CB: So I said to the ground staff they had to get that down. They said, ‘Well, we’ve done all we can.’ I said, ‘Well, it’s still up. Get it down.’ And then Mac said, ‘Well, there’s another we’ve just replaced down at the, one of the other aircraft has just been replaced by a the new engine and it’s the same. Its engine’s running fast.’ So I said, ‘Can I have a look at them then?’ ‘What, you have a look at them?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Why not?’ You know. ‘Well, if you think you can do anything.’ Remember I had been on a carburettors course earlier on. Just after I had finished at Blackpool. So I decided to have a look and one of things I remember what the old man said who was there, ‘Don’t take everything you see as being correct.’ That was what the old man said on this course. So I got up to the stands and looked at the engine and looked at the bars that came, joined up the rods that joined up all the parts and for that and I picked up the [unclear] Well, they looked the same but if I changed that one to another one as I’d done on the course we’ll see what happens. So I changed them around. They were both almost the same level and left, changed them round and I said to them, ‘Try the engine now.’ Which they did and they got the revs right. This batch that came out from headquarters or where ever they were made with the rods placed in the wrong part of the aircraft.
Other 2: Crossed over.
DF: Crossed over, yeah. So, Mac said, ‘Oh, I can’t go and tell these people that it was you that found it.’ I said, ‘Well, you take the credit for it. You say you found it.’ They were happy about that so he did. He went down and said, ‘Well, we found the problem. Change —’ so and so, ‘And they’re alright.’ So, when we were leaving he said, ‘Well, I must say I learned a lot more about carburettors and that from you than I ever knew before.’ He said, ‘I’m going to take it on.’ He said, ‘We’re saving fuel.’ He said, ‘We are saving fuel.’ He says, ‘Probably by saving that little bit of fuel will probably save some people’s life.’ And I said, ‘Yes. Probably our own for that matter.’ Because we had only had two or three minutes of fuel.’ ‘Well, yeah.’ He said, ‘Probably the means of saving your whole crew, you know. And that’s how we left. We parted at that.
CB: Yeah.
DF: And that was the end of our ground crews at that time.
CB: Altogether.
DF: Yeah.
CB: So, when you got to the end of the tour what did you do with the ground crew? Did you go and have a drink? Or —
DF: Went and had a meal together.
CB: Right.
DF: And the, of course, I wasn’t [pause] I hadn’t touched a beer all the time I’d been flying. Never touched any alcohol.
CB: Yeah.
DF: But that night I think we had one or two.
CB: As little as that.
DF: As little as that. Yeah. So that was the end of that. So —
Other: You had a great Christmas dinner at the, on the station, didn’t you?
DF: Yeah. We had. Well, it was a sad, is that still on at the moment?
CB: Ok. So, we’re going to pause for a bit.
DF: Pause on that and just —
[recording paused]
CB: Right. So, let’s just talk about that. So, first of all, your crew. Were you all NCOs or was there a mixture of commissioned?
DF: To start with we were all NCOs.
CB: Right, and so was the ground crew always the same one?
DF: Yes. All the —
CB: So —
DF: All the time on, on X2.
CB: Right. So —
DF: From our eighth operation onwards.
CB: Right.
DF: It was the same crew.
CB: So, in practical terms there was this, a continuity even though some of your crew got commissioned on the way. So —
DF: The pilot only.
CB: Only the pilot. Ok. And to what extent did you, what shall I say indulge in social activities together? I mean what would you do as a ground crew and air crew together?
DF: We didn’t do very much on that at all. We’d meet in the mess now and again but as I say I wasn’t drinking so we didn’t have any beer at all. But the other thing was that during, we always flew during the dark nights when the moon was up then. Then it was more or less a fortnight of less flying put it that way. Just it was just the odd flight, so —
CB: Less flying because —
DF: Because there was the moon.
CB: In other words you could be seen too easily.
DF: Too easily.
CB: And you needed cloud cover.
DF: Yeah.
CB: On the way.
DF: The darkness cover.
CB: So, you wanted the target clear.
DF: Yeah.
CB: But the transit in cloud.
DF: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DF: Or at least dark anyway, you know. But during these days the pilot and I always had a morning time where we had a half an hour, an hour together in, in the cockpit.
CB: Oh right.
DF: Talk about things and that. And occasionally Mac, he would come in and have a chat with us also because not so much to do during these times and one of them was I remember Wally saying to me, ‘Can you swim?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Neither can I.’ So, I said, ‘Why are you asking that?’ He said, ‘Well, if we have to come down in the sea what would we do if we can’t swim?’ I said, ‘Don’t come down in the sea.’ He said, ‘Well —'
CB: Sounds like a good move.
DF: So, Mac come and said, ‘Well, I can’t swim but I wouldn’t think about coming down in the sea anyway. I would stay in the aircraft.’ I said, ‘Well, you’re right, Mac. I would stay in the aircraft also.’ So, Wally said, ‘Are you saying that even if you wanted to or had to come down in the sea you wouldn’t come out?’ I said, ‘No. I’d stay in the aircraft.’ So, he said, ‘Well, why do we need these Mae Wests?’ I said, ‘As far as I’m concerned, we don’t.’ So, he said, ‘Well, would it not be better for us, yourself and that to have the jackets? You know, the leather jackets.’ I said, ‘Well, if we could get one at a reasonable price it would be.’ So, Mac said, ‘I know where people sell them fairly cheaply, you know.’ I said, ‘Well, can you get them easily?’ He said, ‘Oh yeah. I can get a couple of leather jackets for you.’ I said, ‘Alright.’ So, Wally said, ‘Ok then. We’ll replace the Mae Wests for a jacket then.’ So that’s what we did. When we told the rest of the crew they said, ‘Oh, I think we’ll keep our Mae Wests in case we come down in the sea.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s all right.’ I said, ‘I don’t think we will come down. The idea was that we would try and make the shore and that was it. So he often came in just for a chat you know and something just to help things along.
CB: Did your crew do a pairing job? Were there two aircraft that they had a responsibility for or just yours?
DF: Just ours.
CB: Right.
DF: Just the one. Yeah. Just the one.
CB: And how often did you come back with damage to the aircraft?
DF: Most.
CB: And what was their reaction to their aeroplane being damaged?
DF: ‘You bring it back. We’ll get it ready for the next day.’ That was all that was said. ‘You bring it back. We’ll do it.’ I said, I said, ‘Well, if we can get off with the bomb load on we’ll bring it back.’ And that’s what happened. I was sure of that. If we got off the ground we’d bring it back again.
CB: Yes.
DF: And that, so they were quite happy with that. And they did. They got it back in good condition for us.
CB: Now, now this is a variation of what we’re looking for but it does tie in and that is the role of the flight engineer on take-off is what?
DF: The role on the, on take-off from our point of view and our crew point of view was that the pilot looked after the running of the aeroplane itself. Keeping it on the right line and after revving up and letting off the brakes the throttles was passed over to me and I opened the throttles remembering to open the outer port side slightly more than the others because the Lanc always swerved to the —
CB: To the left.
DF: To the left. And that —
CB: The torque of the engines did it.
DF: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DF: That’s right. So we, that’s what happened. Soon as we came to the end of the runway or near the end of the runway if we were a bit short I would then put it through the gate to get the extra revs from the engines.
CB: Yeah.
DF: And the, as soon as we were in the air I dropped that back because that was when I was saying that we knew what the engine would do. You know, they were our own engines so we knew what was happening.
CB: Yeah. Getting through. Getting the revs is putting the throttles.
DF: It’s the certain level of the gate.
CB: Yes.
DF: Pushing the throttles through this gate and that gave you the next —
CB: And how many settings beyond the gate?
DF: There’s just the one.
CB: Just the one. And what does it actually mean going through the gate?
DF: Just giving you extra power from the super —
CB: From the super charger.
DF: The super charger. Yes.
CB: Right. So it’s opening up the supercharger a bit more.
DF: That’s right. But you didn’t want to do that for long.
CB: No.
DF: Because it was screaming at you, you know.
CB: Right.
DF: That’s why I say having control of your own aircraft —
CB: Yes.
DF: You could look after the engines better than somebody —
CB: Yeah. So that’s leading me to the question what’s the ground crew’s interest in how much you put it through the gate? Do they want to know that?
DF: No. No. They never asked us. No. No. Of course, I think some pilots had done that all the time.
CB: Oh.
DF: It was just full revs. They wanted to get off the ground. We were just taking care of engines.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
DF: And that.
CB: Ok. Just pause there again.
[recording paused]
CB: When did you come in to the squadron?
DF: July 1943. And to me it was a great time to, to join 101 Squadron. A squadron which received all the latest aids such as Window, ABC, FIDO and rear gun turret. That was all things that were just coming into being and we seemed to get all these things as early as anybody else and it was the time when the Battle of Hamburg had just finished and the Battle of Berlin was just starting. A great time to be there. It was a happy squadron considering the working and living conditions as we talked about earlier on. And even although it was only approximately five percent of my life it was a time which I would never have, [pause] I was pleased that I flew with 101 Squadron and wouldn’t have missed it for anything. And also changed my life for the future completely, the war did and that and the, allowing us to have a much better, happier, enjoyable life after the war which I don’t think would ever have happened if there hadn’t been a war and as I say I took up forestry and I think it, even for Sylvia too it was a good life. It wasn’t a job. It was a way of, way of living and it was better than a good way of doing it. So we enjoyed ourselves and happily we had taken up that position at that time. That’s all I was going to say on that you know.
CB: Ok. Just quickly on a couple of other things you were getting the new technology. That meant the ground crew had a part to play in that to be sure that it was working, so how did they deal with that?
DF: They had to do —
CB: Did they have special training like you?
DF: Yes. They that that special training. There wasn’t one for each aircraft. There was the three or four covered, I can’t tell you just how many but three or four covered the planes and they went from one to the other doing these jobs and if there was two or three different assessing had to be done. It was probably two or three people. One doing this and one doing that on the planes.
CB: Did you also have the tail warning radar Monica?
DF: We did but we didn’t because of ABC coming in. We lost that. We had that and we had fitted other things.
CB: Because of weight.
DF: Because of weight. Yes. Because the, what do you call it, the ABC was about, I don’t know, a couple of hundred weight or something.
CB: Oh, was it? So, do you want to just describe what was ABC?
DF: ABC was a —
CB: I mean, effectively it’s an electronics package, isn’t it?
DF: Yes. And person [pause] it’s difficult to say. The operator who could speak German breaking in to the German lines of communication between ground crews and fighters.
CB: Yeah.
DF: And stopping the, getting information back to them by jamming the, the whatever, what do you call it, line we were on and that by using the noise of the engines and that was what it really was. Just a jamming programme to —
CB: So, there was a microphone in the engine which they broadcast the sound from —
DF: Yes. That’s right.
CB: To jam the German —
DF: The German —
CB: Fighter communications.
DF: The communication between the ground crew and the fighters.
CB: What I was getting at was whether that wouldn’t work all the time so it had to have work done on it. Did they have a, did that introduce a new specialty in ground crew to deal with it?
DF: Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course, every aircraft had it, had it all had to be checked. The radius for it was supposed to be fifty miles. It could cover fifty miles out.
CB: Oh right.
DF: That was why the four aircraft was sufficient to cover.
CB: The whole a bomber stream.
DF: Bomber stream. And that. But it was successful but the effect was that by doing the jamming the aircraft could then be picked up by other fighters who wasn’t in the same range as the ones that were being jammed and they could pick off the Lancaster. That’s why 101 squadron had the heaviest losses in Bomber Command.
CB: So effectively although in practical terms ABC was emitting signals as well as receiving signal.
DF: Signal. Yeah.
CB: And it was the radiation effectively from that that the German fighters locked on to.
DF: Locked on to. That’s right.
CB: Yes
DF: And as I say even though they flew on every, on most raids it was possible but they had the highest losses and flew far more operations than any other squadron.
CB: With the, with the special operator running this and the gear itself that put a lot of weight in. What did that do to your bomb load?
DF: It didn’t affect the bomb load. What they did was to take out the [pause] like the heavy metal support behind the pilot’s seat. The pilot’s head rather. These things were taken out instead of dropping the bomb load.
CB: Yeah. We’ve covered lots of things. Catering. But what about the medical side?
DF: Funnily enough we never come against them. I think only once one of our crew, [unclear] once one of our crews they had an earwig which had [unclear] got in to his ears and they couldn’t get it out so they had to go to the hospital to get it taken out. And the other one of course was the mid-upper gunner when we lost him on the flight to Berlin with what they said was lack of moral fibre.
CB: He did what?
DF: Lack of moral fibre.
CB: Oh yes. Right.
DF: I think we talked about that.
CB: We have. Yes, but it’s a link. Yes.
DF: So —
CB: Yeah. Now, some of the times the aircraft would come back damaged and on fire.
DF: Yes. We’ve had a —
CB: So —
DF: Engines on fire.
CB: Yes.
DF: But that, we had two occasions we had up to a hundred holes along the wings and the fuselage.
CB: So, when the plane came in to land in those circumstances was it followed by ground crew?
DF: No.
CB: To the [pause] Fire crew and ambulance.
DF: No. No. They didn’t. We didn’t. Well, I know about what the damage was anyway. In fact, on one occasion we had done a [pause] we were caught in a thunderstorm and couldn’t get out of it and we were pushed from twenty thousand feet down a bit and up again. The last time we did in a power dive to get away from it and to pull it out we were down to about four thousand feet by the time the two of us had to pull back on the stick and when we landed and looked at the aircraft the rivets along the front, underneath the front of the wings had sprung.
CB: So, they had to re-rivet that.
DF: Re-rivet.
CB: You mentioned earlier about damage with flak.
DF: Yes.
CB: How did they mend that?
DF: Mostly it was just a cover they put over.
CB: Aluminium or fabric?
DF: Well, in some places it was fabric. Other times it had to be aluminium because on the wing or on the main job [pause] but they seemed to get done very quickly. I mean I never watched them doing it but they seemed to —
CB: But how would they do that? How would they make it attached because they didn’t, they wouldn’t have glued it?
DF: No. I think it was rivetted it. Yeah. I’m sure it was rivetted but as I say I can’t be sure on that.
CB: Right.
DF: Because I never had the time to watch them.
CB: The other one we didn’t talk a lot about is air traffic. So, what did you call them then? That’s a post war name, air traffic, isn’t it?
DF: Yeah.
CB: What were they called in the war?
[pause]
DF: This is the control between the control and the —
CB: Well, aircraft in the air and on the ground. So that was the watch office, wasn’t it?
DF: Yes. And we had to call. Call sign. Well, I can’t remember it now. 101 Squadron was known for its good library. I think our sign was [pause] I don’t think I have it.
CB: We’ll perhaps come back but so for take-off how would they communicate with the aircraft from the watch office?
DF: Usually just X2 proceed to end of runway. Then —
CB: But on the RT or did they use an Aldis lamp?
DF: Always, occasionally it was from the, the inwards. Other times it was just by the Aldis lamp. Mainly by Aldis lamp. Just a green light was given.
CB: So, the Germans couldn’t pick up that there was a take-off about to happen.
DF: Take off. That’s right.
CB: But when you returned to the field then what?
DF: It was by name. Just like a like K.
CB: But on the RT.
DF: On the RT.
CB: Yes.
DF: The pilot would just get on and say, ‘X2, permission to land please.’
CB: Yeah.
DF: And then they would just say yes to whatever it was. And then as you got near to land you would probably get another saying X2, height three thousand feet or five thousand feet depending on the number of aircraft that was in the, circling to land.
CB: So, you come in to the circuit. We’re in the dark. What do you do first thing?
DF: Well, put on lights. You could use the lights in the dark over the airfield. And that’s the first thing that went on but other than that you were just watching.
CB: Who put down the undercarriage?
DF: I did.
CB: Right.
DF: Yeah. It was just the pilot said, ‘Undercarriage down.’ And push. Push down and that’s it. Or, ‘Undercarriage up,’ just and he used the flaps of course obviously but one thing about him, he was, he was good at landing at night but in the day time he was —
CB: A bouncer.
DF: A bouncer [laughs] I think the reason was that in the night when we were getting almost on the ground I would pull the throttles back and we just got in nicely but during the day, he was controlling it during the day so — [laughs]
CB: [laughs] Right. We’ll stop there. Yes.
[recording paused]
CB: So, the fuelling up and the armoury, rearming of the aircraft would be done before you arrived, would it.
DF: Yes. That’s right.
CB: How would they do that?
DF: They had done it. Part of their job during the day they would fill up with the petrol depending on the lengths of the operation. You got two hundred gallons was the average. Whatever was the average rate of juice by a Lancaster. So, if you were doing six hours you got twelve hundred gallons plus an extra hundred gallons.
CB: Spare.
DF: To spare. That’s how it was worked out. That was all done by the ground crew before we’d take off. And the ammunition and that was also determined by the armourers before we —
CB: Right.
DF: Got in the aircraft. But having said that never once did our gunners fire a shot during the whole —
CB: Didn’t they?
DF: No. Except testing their guns. But other than that their policy was don’t get involved with fighters unless they attack you personally.
CB: Yes.
DF: Because as soon as you do you open yourself up to not one fighter but half a dozen fighters.
CB: So, what you’re saying is their job was to defend the aircraft but not to attract opposition.
DF: It wasn’t our job to.
CB: Shoot down other aeroplanes.
DF: Other —
CB: Right.
DF: Fighters or that so we didn’t do it. The only time we’d done it was on the last raid when we were on the, the new turret at the back. We were told by squadron, ‘Tonight if you see fighters fire on them because they’ll be taken so much by surprise.’ There was only six aircraft had it on and went out but the Germans didn’t know that so —
CB: Had what on?
DF: The guns.
CB: Oh, the big guns.
DF: The big —
CB: The new .5s.
DF: .5s.
CB: So, you could reach them. Yes.
DF: So, we could. And it shook up them more than it shook up Lancasters.
CB: Yes.
DF: And that was the only time that our gunners fired.
CB: Right.
DF: A shot.
CB: And they really were firing at fighters.
DF: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Did they, did they get them?
DF: I don’t think so.
CB: No.
DF: But instead of letting them go and saying out in the aircraft, ‘Fighter. Port. 11 o’clock.’
CB: Yeah.
DF: Or whatever it was. That, that was said but there was no action taken.
CB: Right.
DF: That night. As soon as that was said the guns went off. I think it shook them quite well.
CB: Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Fraser. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-06
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:59:40 Audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFraserDK170906
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Fraser completed a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 101 Squadron. He discusses the importance of ground personnel, his crew, his operations and the conditions at RAF Ludford Magna. He describes having to stop his mid-upper gunner from jumping from the aircraft without his parachute, and being lost in fog when returning from an operation. He also discusses the role of the eighth man in 101 Squadron crews jamming German radio signals with Airborne Cigar.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-12-17
1943-12-25
1944
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
Nissen hut
RAF Ludford Magna
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/766/10767/PDallDKM1601.2.jpg
b5df8b4400540f0c29cf975e92f689ee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/766/10767/ADallDKM161122.1.mp3
c8a57d5afd9ee10d16615f0067dd4195
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dall, David Kenneth McKenzie
D K M Dall
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer David Kenneth McKenzie Dall (b. 1924, 1320652 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dall, DKM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Tuesday the 22nd.
DD: 22nd.
CB: Of November 2016. And we’re in West Hendred with David Dall who was a 101 Squadron man and talking about his life and times. So, what are the earliest things you remember about your life, David?
DD: Well, the first thing I remember was out in Nyasaland. Now Malawi. My father was a tea planter. He used to take me around the tea estate on the back of his motorcycle inspecting stuff. And from there I sort of grew, grew up a little bit more. God. This is very difficult.
CB: We can start again.
DD: Sorry.
CB: Don’t worry.
[recording paused]
DD: My earliest recollections was living on a tea estate in Nyasaland. Now Malawi. I used to go around — I used to go across to my father’s factory most days accompanied by my boy who looked after me. An African whose name was Kaios. That went on ‘til I was about five or six, I think. And I was sent then to the convent to start my education in Limbe. Just outside Blantyre. I stayed there until I was about eight and then came over to this country when my father and mother separated. I was then, I spent one year acclimatizing, being acclimatized to schooling in this country. I went to Streatham Grammar School. And from there I went on to a public school in Suffolk called Framlingham. And I was there until 19 — was it — ‘42. And then my grandmother, my grandmother who was my guardian decided because of air raids around Suffolk that I was to go back to her but she lived in London. And of course the bombings was on at that time 1941/42. Sorry. Not ’42. ’41. Eventually she decided that it wasn’t worth staying there and she managed to buy a house down at Redhill in Surrey. I went down there and although I didn’t do any schooling I stayed there until I was about what seventeen and a half. And because of contacts my grandmother had with the RFC people during the First World War I got to know all the stories about the RFC now the RAF. And it sort of, you know I wanted to join up as soon as possible. And in 1942 I volunteered but I was seventeen. Seventeen and three quarters then. I volunteered for the air force but they turned me down. So I sort of thought about it and eventually I decided to go up to another place and volunteer there. And I got in. That was Croydon. It was, you know it was so busy there you could flannel your way through. So I was accepted there although I was three months under age. I waited and eventually I got a communication from the RAF to go for my interviews in Oxford. The main, the main part of that was in the medical side which I passed. And they sent me back and said wait. And the next thing I knew I was in. I started off — I think it was at Cardington. Yeah. I went through the basics there and got my uniform and all that sort of business. And I had volunteered for aircrew which I, you know I passed in my medical. Wait a minute. Can you stop it a second?
[recording paused]
DD: Not yet.
CB: So we’re just doing an alteration now because it wasn’t Cardington.
DD: No. It was Padgate.
CB: So where did you go to the ITW?
DD: Yeah.
CB: At? Padgate was it?
DD: I didn’t, I have to, I hadn’t — can you switch it off again.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
DD: Cut that. It was from, where did I go? God, I can’t remember. It’s taxing my —
[recording paused]
CB: Back with Madley.
DD: At Madley, I started, I did my first part of the wireless course. And then when I completed that I was posted as, to sort of a holding place at Pengham and Tremorfa in South Wales. From there I went back to Madley to do my, to commence my flying on Proctors and Dominies. When I finished there I went to Manby and did the gunnery course where I got my sergeant stripes and felt very good [laughs] I then went to Millom in Cumberland to do my AFU. And from there when I passed out there to Whitchurch and then on to the satellite at [unclear] to fly on Whitleys and train there. After we finished there and crewed up we then were sent to a holding unit at Boston. And from there we received our engineer and rear gunner to complete the crew. We did a — and went to —
CB: That was at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
DD: The Heavy Conversion Unit. Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: And once we passed out there we went to Ludford and there we did —
CB: Which squadron was that?
DD: 101 Squadron at Ludford.
CB: And what was special about 101 Squadron?
DD: It was an ABC Squadron.
CB: Airborne Cigar.
DD: Yeah. Cigar.
CB: What did that mean?
DD: Well, it meant that we had to have an extra member in the crew who understood and spoke German.
CB: Right.
DD: I’ve told you that.
CB: Ok. What happened when you arrived at Ludford?
DD: When we arrived at Ludford we had to do a little bit more training and eventually we were informed that we were going to carry an extra member of the crew who spoke German and understood. His job mainly was to jam up night fighter stations and ground stations. After, after, after we finished our initial training there we were then unfortunately set onto the worst trip of all. Berlin. We did two Berlins on the trot. And we had a break and we did our third Berlin. And then we did, gradually went through different bombing raids until one I most remember was Nuremberg where unfortunately we lost seven aircraft. Which meant we lost fifty six people. And from there on we had quite a good run with the trips until we reached our thirtieth mission. We thought we were finished but that was the night before the night of D-Day and we volunteered for one extra trip. But there’s one trip I do remember. When they first started using the blue searchlights. We were in the front coming after we had bombed, on the way back we were suddenly caught in this blue searchlight and the next thing we knew we were diving straight to the ground to try and miss all the searchlights coming up. The blue lights. We ended up about two or three hundred feet off the ground. Yeah. That was from the height of about seventeen thousand approximately. I know my rear gunner was blinded by the searchlights as we passed through them going down. He just couldn’t see anything. He’ll tell you that too. That was a rather a nasty trip but going back to our last trip, coming back it was a most amazing sight. Oh, we did two trips around Europe drawing fighters away from the coast. You know, for D-Day. For the landings. When we’d completed those and we were returning to England we saw the invasion forces coming in and it was the most marvellous sight I’ve ever seen in my life. The hundreds and hundreds of ships in the Channel. It was beyond belief to see what was going on down there. And eventually we landed back at Ludford and that was us finished. That’s it.
CB: When you were on the ops to draw the fighters away how did — was that daylight?
DD: No. Night.
CB: That was night.
DD: Night. Yes. All night trips.
CB: So what was the, were you bombing on that?
DD: We did a bombing raid. Yes. As far as I can remember. Yeah. We did. Yeah.
CB: And how effective was the drawing away?
DD: Well, apparently very few fighters and bombers hit the beaches, you know. The numbers were, mind you they were, they didn’t have a lot of fuel for the aircraft in those days. The Germans didn’t have the fuel and they were running down. So in a way we helped a bit but not a great deal I don’t think.
CB: So, when you went on the raids other squadrons would assemble and then get into the bomber stream.
DD: We were spaced out.
CB: How did your 101 fit in to the bomber stream?
DD: Well, 101 was fit, was spaced out in the bomber stream. From the beginning to the end.
CB: Right.
DD: I don’t know what distances apart they were but different heights and different levels. But the one thing I do remember on the night of Nuremberg all the aircraft that we did see shot down. But we were told afterwards that they were oil bombs that blew up in the sky to, you know to frighten us. I think there was something, something there you could look into actually. But we thought, we were told that all these big sort of bursts of flame were oil, ack-ack and things. And you know at the time it really worried us actually.
CB: Did it?
DD: Because we thought it was all the aircraft going down.
CB: How many did you see go down yourselves on that raid?
DD: I never, I didn’t count them but it went on and on all night. Going to the target and coming back. But we were very lucky. But we were lucky we had what was called Monica which picked up, you know it couldn’t really differentiate between a fighter and a bomber except that the bomber was a bigger blip on the screen to the fighter.
CB: So this was a rear looking radar detector.
DD: Yeah. And which, which I was monitoring all the time. As soon as I picked up one I’d inform the pilot what to do. You know, whether to turn port, dive port or, you know, climb or something like that. But they were very basic. It was a very basic thing but it did help. And —
CB: So when you saw all these planes exploding.
DD: We thought were planes.
CB: Yeah. How did you think — what did you think about that?
DD: Well we were a bit shattered.
CB: Were you?
DD: I think the morale in the crew went down a little bit.
CB: Did it?
DD: But — and we weren’t really told much about it when we got back to base.
CB: And did, when you got down to debriefing after a sortie what did you do?
DD: Well, we told them all about it. Of course they were interested in that because they didn’t realise how many aircraft had been lost actually at that time. But the morale on the squadron the next day was rather low.
CB: Was it?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Because they lost ninety.
DD: We’d lost seven. We lost seven aircraft.
CB: Ninety eight. Yeah. You’d lost seven. Yes.
DD: Yeah. On that.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That was fifty six people and the messes were empty. Well, not empty but you know really reduced and it affected us a little bit that.
CB: Now, your crew came from a variety of places. What, where, where —how many were Brits and how many were Canadian?
DD: Well, we had three Canadians.
CB: Who were they?
DD: The pilot, the navigator and the bomb aimer. And the rest were British.
CB: Right.
DD: Although I was allowed to wear the Rhodesian flash. I got permission for that from Rhodesia House.
CB: That was good.
DD: Yeah. Because you see it on one of the photographs.
CB: Yes.
DD: You see my Rhodesia up there.
CB: Right. And how many of the crew were commissioned?
DD: One.
CB: And —
DD: Just one.
CB: Who was he?
DD: The pilot.
CB: Right.
DD: The navigator was commissioned after the tour finished I think. Yes. He got his commission just after.
CB: And how many were decorated at the end of the tour?
DD: Oh. The Canadians were. We weren’t.
CB: Right. What did they get?
DD: DFCs.
CB: Right.
DD: Or DFCs and DFMs. But the English crew we got nothing.
CB: No.
DD: Nothing at all.
CB: Ok. How well did the crew gel?
DD: Very well indeed. We all, when we were doing our training and our sort of air tests and all that sort of business we each took each other’s jobs. We learned them that way.
CB: There was a purpose to that. So what was it?
DD: In case. In case we were, you know someone was killed or wounded or something like that. We could take over. Someone could take over the job. But we went through all of them. We didn’t have much to do with the engineer. At least I didn’t. But I sort of knew the navigator’s job and did a bit with the bomb aimer. And of course gunnery I knew. And that’s the way we sort of carried on. You know, we kept on learning about each other’s jobs and I think that’s the reason why we got through.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Because we, you know we knew our jobs so well. Plus the fact that we had a very very good pilot. He was good. There was no doubt about that.
CB: What age was he?
DD: He was the oldest in the crew. Twenty four I think.
CB: Oh really old then.
DD: Yeah [laughs] he was. We used to think of him as the old man.
CB: Yeah. Now, you were a wireless operator. So, what, what was your role? What were you actually doing on the sorties? On the operations.
DD: On the operations I was taking the wind speeds because as, the wireless operator used to do a lot of work with the navigator. We were getting wind speeds from back in the UK from Group. And not only that we were monitoring on this Monica so you know sort of one side the other one there. Doing that sort of business. We were trained in Gee. You know —
CB: Which was the plotting system.
DD: The plotting system.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Yeah. And I used to help the navigator with that as well when I had a quiet period. Giving him some readings as and when he wanted.
CB: Because that’s how he found on the lattice because it was a lattice system.
DD: Yeah. Aye.
CB: So that’s how you were following where — your location.
DD: Our location on the ground. Yes.
CB: And how far was that effective away from base?
DD: It was quite — initially it wasn’t very good. But it gradually got better and better more or less each trip we did because information was coming in all the time and someone was looking into that.
CB: And when you were — the Monica was designed to alert the crew to the appearance of night fighters.
DD: Mainly the pilot.
CB: Yeah.
DD: As soon as I saw anything that came up on the, on the screen I would tell the pilot to dive port or dive starboard depending on which area the aircraft was coming in and get him sort of aircraft port quarter.
CB: Right.
DD: Starboard or something like that. Whichever way it was the pilot would dive down and do his, you know — squiggle [laughs]
CB: Do a corkscrew.
DD: The corkscrew. Yeah.
CB: You had to hold on when he did the corkscrew.
DD: You certainly did. Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: Straight. Ray, Ray was a very energetic pilot I would say.
CB: You had, as a signaller you had regular communication at a timed space. How did that work?
DD: Timed space. Every fifteen minutes I would have Group. And then we could listen out for any other information that was coming in.
CB: Which would be what?
DD: Well, mainly to do with, well the wind. The windspeed was the Group one. When we got far away, you know some distance away from England we just kept to the Group and listened out to them for any information.
CB: So —
DD: Because as I say normally it was every fifteen minutes but if anything special came up it would come in between.
CB: Now, you and the navigator were also yourselves were you measuring wind speed?
DD: Well, he was.
CB: How did he do that?
DD: I didn’t do the windspeeds. The navigator did all that. One of the things I used to do was to stand in the astrodome to check out, you know aircraft. You know, when I wasn’t looking on the Monica. If it was quiet I’d be looking around and see what was going on. Sometimes you know if we were flying a bit low from there you could pick out features on the ground. If, if there was any light down there. See what — from the astrodome I could see any ack-ack. You know. Where it was bursting. Where the searchlights were. That all came into it. You know, you were talking all the time either to the skipper or the navigator.
CB: And how often did you see other aircraft near you while you were on the op?
DD: Not, not a lot until you got to the bombing stage. When you were on the run in. Generally the aircraft were all coming closer and you’d see people up there, down there. In fact one night we just missed a load of bombs that came out of an aircraft above us.
CB: Did you make the call? Did you? To the pilot.
DD: No. WT silence.
CB: No. No. But I meant did you tell the pilot?
DD: Oh, yes. Yes.
CB: About the aircraft above.
DD: Well he saw. Everyone saw it.
CB: Oh right.
DD: Except the rear gunner. He was out of it [laughs]
CB: So, in that circumstance what does the pilot do? Does he, if it’s ahead does he throttle back or does he move? I mean, it’s —
DD: Well, as far as I remember he kept steady. Steady on that route.
CB: And just hope it didn’t hit you.
DD: Well, you could see them coming down. More or less by the time you got to that spot you know you were clear. You could go through. But it didn’t happen very often but it did happen occasionally.
CB: There’s a, there’s a famous picture somewhere of a Lancaster with no rear turret.
DD: Yes.
CB: Because it had been —
DD: Yeah. Hit it.
CB: Demolished from bombs from above.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So this was a constant.
DD: It was a worry.
CB: Yes.
DD: But not only that actually. The prospect of a collision over the target was very real.
CB: Right.
DD: You know. You know, if you’re flying slightly off course and coming in you could sort of hit each other.
CB: Yes. Did your pilot tend to fly slightly on the outside and then move in or was he always tried to be in the middle of the melee?
DD: He was generally in the middle. Once or twice we had to go around again. Which wasn’t very pleasant.
CB: You mean you didn’t drop the bombs. You went around.
DD: We didn’t drop the bombs. No.
CB: Or if you were too soon.
DD: The ack-ack was too strong and we had to move away.
CB: Right.
DD: And go around again.
CB: Right.
DD: And redo our bombing raid.
CB: So you were looking out for the flak. Were you looking for the flak boxes?
DD: What do you mean flak boxes?
CB: Where they had concentrations of flak in a particular height or a particular area.
DD: Oh yes. Yes. Well, at that stage you were looking forward. To see, you know any boxes as you say. If you saw it dead ahead which obviously the pilot could see as well you didn’t say anything. But if you saw it off to the side then you would inform him.
CB: Right.
DD: Or even if it was behind you.
CB: Because he couldn’t see it.
DD: Because over the bombing, the bombing run, my job was actually to be in the astrodome to see what was going on around and inform everyone.
CB: During the bombing run.
DD: During the bombing run. Until we actually got to the bombing run. Even then when you came out of the bombing run well Ray always used to make a swish down. Out of the way.
CB: Get to the —
DD: Get to below the bombing, bombing height. So we went down about two or three thousand feet to get out and then he’d start climbing up a bit. But it varied actually. He, he decided what he did then. We didn’t of course.
CB: But he would turn left or right after releasing the bombs?
DD: Not always. Sometimes he went —
CB: Just straight on.
DD: Straight on and down. You know. Gently going down. Watching out for other aircraft if they were lower. Especially when, if the Halifaxes were low, or the Stirlings. You couldn’t go down to their level of course. You only went down about two or three thousand feet.
CB: Still.
DD: It was a bit different to that flak level which, you know it helped us sometimes because we, sometimes the rear gunner would say flak was on our trail. You’d see it bombing you know. Getting there. Because there were so many guns around. Well especially Berlin. There was something like sixty thousand guns. We never liked that [laughs]
CB: No.
DD: That was one of our horror trips.
CB: How often did the aircraft get hit?
DD: We weren’t hit at all actually. We were lucky in that respect. As I say the fact we had such a good pilot. He knew what to do exactly. Get out of the way of things.
CB: And did you experience any night fighters behind you on any occasions?
DD: On Monica. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
DD: But when you gave the order for the pilot to do something he got away from them [pause]
CB: So you never got shot at by a pilot, by a fighter.
DD: We did one night. The attack was starting but we’d picked it up on Monica and we got out of the way. He lost us. As I say Ray was such a good pilot he knew where to go and get out of the way of everything.
CB: How did the crew respond to Monica? What did they think about it?
DD: They liked it. The gunners. The two gunners loved it. You know. We could tell them exactly where to look.
CB: Right.
DD: Because when you’re looking into the dark all the time you can’t see. Your eyes get a bit blurry. But if you know where to look, concentrate on that, it was a big help.
CB: Now, you’ve got the eighth man in the aircraft. To what extent did you link in with him? Because he was using electronic equipment.
DD: Yeah.
CB: And you were the radio man.
DD: Yeah. Well, I I if I could pick you know in a quiet run anywhere if I could pick up a night fighter station anywhere I would inform him. I didn’t have a lot to do with him. They were kept separate to us.
CB: Was he always the same man?
DD: No. No.
CB: Or did it vary?
DD: No. Different one. Although we had one bloke I think we flew about three or four times with. But that was rather unusual. But he liked our crew apparently. And as I say they were a thing on their own.
CB: What did you know about them?
DD: Nothing. We were kept separate from them.
CB: Did they speak to the crew in any way?
DD: Oh, when we were in the aircraft occasionally but not during a flight.
CB: Right.
DD: They were completely on their own.
CB: So where were they sitting? So —
DD: They were sitting just behind the main spar. They had, I think there were three transmitters and two receivers. And they sat there. Opposite the rest bed.
CB: And where was their aerial? What was it like? And where was it?
DD: Don’t know. We had nothing to do with it.
CB: No. But it was, it was sticking out of the aircraft.
DD: There was one sticking out, yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DD: But we, we knew nothing about it.
CB: That was the ABC. The airborne cigar. Wasn’t it?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: I think so.
CB: So on the ground then to what extent did you fraternise with any of the special ops people?
DD: We didn’t. We didn’t fraternise at all.
CB: Why was that?
DD: Well, they were kept separate from us completely.
CB: In, in what way?
DD: Well, we just didn’t meet them.
CB: They lived somewhere different did they?
DD: Probably. We didn’t know anything. Once we got back on the ground and we went for debriefing we didn’t see them again.
CB: Oh. Did they go into debriefing or were they —
DD: No.
CB: They were debriefed separately.
DD: I can’t remember seeing them.
CB: Right.
DD: Maybe one or two did. I don’t know. But they were a law unto themselves as far as we were concerned. We had nothing to do with them.
CB: So they were German speakers. How many of them did you think were not Brits anyway?
DD: Well, we didn’t know how many there were but we had a few that were Brits. When I say a few I think over the whole course we probably had about three or four. The rest were foreigners mostly.
CB: Native German speakers.
DD: Well, yeah. Well, there were a lot of Poles, Czechs. No, we didn’t have much to do with them.
CB: No. Going to your earlier time when you crewed up how did that work?
DD: Very well indeed.
CB: So what happened?
DD: Well, we were put into this room and all everyone was milling around and talking to people. A couple of people asked me, you know if I was, you know wanted me to join them. I wasn’t. Actually, I saw Ray. I liked the look of him.
CB: The pilot.
DD: Yeah. So eventually I made my way across to him and had a talk. He brought in the navigator and we got on well the three of us. And that was it. We crewed up.
CB: And then there was the third Canadian. I mean did they get together because they knew —
DD: The bomb aimer.
CB: They were Canadian or —
DD: Yeah. Probably.
CB: Just coincidence.
DD: Yeah. He, he joined in at the end I think. There was a bit of a mish mash of things but you know, you’re all milling around and —
CB: Yeah.
DD: If you liked the look of someone or thought you they might be a good, you know crew mate you got on to them. But it was a strange affair but it worked well really. Then we, we all gelled. Yeah.
HD: A good job you did.
CB: So that was at the OTU. But how many crew were there then? That wasn’t the full.
DD: No. We had the pilot, navigator, bomb aimer and one gunner.
CB: Yeah. And then you.
DD: And me.
CB: And you were a wireless operator/air gunner.
DD: Yeah.
CB: What was the brevet you were wearing at that stage?
DD: At that time it was the AG bridge.
CB: And you had a flash on your sleeve.
DD: Oh, you had a wireless.
CB: Showing you were a wireless operator.
DD: Yeah. Aye.
CB: Right.
DD: And then that changed did it? Later.
CB: Well no. Not until I came, after I came out.
DD: Right.
CB: And then you —
DD: They had the signals badge then.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
DD: I didn’t get that. I was a W/op AG. You see, I had the two jobs.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So —
DD: But the ones that came in afterwards. They all wore, the wireless people —
CB: Yeah.
DD: All wore Ss.
CB: So, were you pleased to keep the W/op AG?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Rather than a signaller.
DD: I was.
CB: Right. There was a better badge of respectability.
DD: [laughs] Well, I suppose it was in way. It meant you —
CB: Well, you’d done more hadn’t you?
DD: You were an older member.
CB: Yes. Established member.
DD: Aye.
CB: So, when you got to the HCU then the flight engineer came. So how did he and the rear gunner, how did they get selected?
DD: Oh the rear gunner was selected in the mish mash. We got him there.
CB: You were short of one. One gunner.
DD: Yeah. Mid-upper.
CB: Yeah. Mid-upper.
DD: Mid-upper.
CB: Ok. So how did you get him?
DD: He was sent to us.
CB: Sent to you.
DD: Sent. Yeah.
CB: Right. What about the engineer? How did he come into the —
DD: He was also sent to us.
CB: Oh right. No choice.
DD: No choice.
CB: Right.
DD: No.
CB: And how did that do? How did they gel with everybody else?
DD: Well, at first we weren’t very happy about it. The mid-upper gunner — it took a little bit longer to get to know him because he was a very strong Welsh chap. Very taciturn. We didn’t know quite what to make of him at first but eventually it turned out that he sort of relaxed a bit and he was, he was ok. You know, he gelled alright then.
CB: And the engineer?
DD: The engineer was a Cockney from London. Arthur Moore. He was, [laughs] he was a strange chap but we liked him.
CB: And then —
DD: But he wasn’t really part of the original crew.
CB: No. That’s what I meant. Yeah.
DD: It took a little while to get used to them both but eventually they did. They gelled in with us.
CB: And had he been trained as a flight engineer or had he originally been a flight mechanic? An air mechanic.
DD: No. He was trained as a, as a flight engineer.
CB: Right.
DD: Didn’t know a lot about him. He kept himself to himself. But I can’t — no. He was, yeah he was trained as a flight engineer. I’m pretty sure about that. Smithy can confirm that.
CB: Now, thinking about the social side. So how did, how did that gel?
DD: Well, we had a motorbike.
CB: Oh.
DD: And sidecar.
CB: For all seven of you. Yeah.
DD: There’s a photograph of it.
CB: Yes.
DD: We did one night get seven on it and got stopped by the police [laughs] It was a night out in Louth. Oh dear.
CB: It must have been a good one. Yes.
DD: It was a good one that.
CB: Yes.
DD: I can’t tell you. We were hanging out all over the place [laughs] But normally it was quite ok.
CB: Yeah.
DD: If we went into Louth to go in the cinema or something like that we used to get a taxi mainly. But this one night I don’t know why. I think, we didn’t go in on it. We came back on it, I think.
CB: Who did it belong to then?
DD: Pardon?
CB: The pilot? Did it —
DD: It belonged to, the navigator had some relations in Wolverhampton and they gave him the bike.
CB: With the sidecar.
DD: With the sidecar. And he brought it back to the squadron. Yeah. We had some good times there.
CB: What happened on the airfield? Did they have dances on the airfield? Or did you —
DD: Oh there were very few dances. Very very few. Normally when you had a stand down well you either stay in the station or went off into Louth or something like that.
CB: Market Rasen?
DD: Occasionally. Not so much. Mainly Louth we went into.
CB: Any other places that you would consider?
DD: Grimsby.
CB: Grimsby.
DD: Yeah. Cleethorpes.
CB: Have a fight with the sailors.
DD: No. Didn’t have any problems up there at all. Yeah. It sort of mixed quite well actually from what I remember.
CB: Well, places like North Coates were Coastal Command so did you link —
DD: No.
CB: In any way with them on a social?
DD: No. Not at all.
CB: Didn’t come across them.
DD: No. No. I can’t remember anything about that.
CB: No. So you got to the end of the tour. Thirty one ops. Is that right?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Because you did the extra.
DD: Thirty one there.
CB: Then what happened?
DD: Well, we just [pause] well for about a week after we finished and then we were all sort of posted off different places. We didn’t — mainly we, mainly we didn’t see each other again. I did meet up, when I was attached to a Canadian OTU I met up with the skipper then.
CB: Where was that?
DD: That was Gamston near Retford.
CB: So, when you were at the end where were you posted immediately after?
DD: Well, I was posted to Gamston.
CB: Oh you were. Yeah.
DD: There was a bit of a mish mash that happened from there on. We were sort of posted around. When the OTU closed we were sent off to Peplow. We were there for about a week and then oh we went all around different places for a about week or two weeks’ time ‘til eventually — where did we get to? Oh, I finished up at Gamston. Again.
CB: Again.
DD: Yeah. On ferry flight. We were ferrying the old Wimpies.
CB: Where did you —
DD: Down to Little Rissington.
CB: Oh yeah.
DD: There were hundreds down there.
CB: They were breaking them up.
DD: Breaking them up. Yeah.
CB: And what did they do? Take you back with an, in an Anson or something.
DD: No. Three aircraft used to go down.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Two were delivered. One brought us back.
CB: Right.
DD: It was alright until we had some bad weather and we landed at Cranwell and they didn’t want us there [laughs] We were all scruffy, you know. In our flying gear and everything. We had to go in to the mess like that and people’s faces were looking down at us. Oh God it was terrible. Oh dear. I shan’t forget. I was flying with, the pilot was a Flight Lieutenant Bristow. He was a Canadian and he and I really got [laughs] got on well. But the way they treated us. They couldn’t get rid of us quick enough. Although you know we’d landed on the grass airfield and this this Wimpy had sunk in. They didn’t like that. They didn’t like anything about us.
CB: So when is this? This is late ’44.
DD: This would be oh ’45.
CB: ’45.
DD: ’45. Anyway, we got out. We collected. We didn’t even stay the night there. We went off as soon as we could.
CB: Yeah. So —
DD: We were supposed to stay the night because of the weather but they, they pushed us off.
CB: Yeah. So, I meant to say late ’45 because the war had ended then. Had it?
DD: Yes. Because we were doing the ferrying and it had all finished.
CB: Yeah.
DD: And the Canadian OTU, they closed down and all the Canadians went back.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That’s where I met up with my skipper.
CB: Right.
DD: Because he came down there for three days. And —
CB: By coincidence was it? Or did he come to say hello?
DD: No. No. He was posted there because that was a holding unit before they went off.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
DD: To where ever they were going.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Yeah. I didn’t see him again until nineteen — no 2002.
CB: What happened then?
DD: Well, in between he’d, I was out in Africa. He was flying. He started off, he was in the, he joined the Canadian Air Force out there flying Sabres in Germany and then when he came out he joined a civilian — he became a civilian pilot. And whilst I was in Nyasaland and Rhodesia he was, he was coming to Zambia to try to catch each other. He tried many a time to get hold of me but we always seemed to miss each other. And in my second, in my second tour with the air force when I was out in Hong Kong he used to get a flight to Singapore. But I didn’t know that. Oh I just tried to get hold of him.
CB: So, fast backwards or where we were just with Gamston. That was where they were repatriating the Canadians.
DD: The Canadians. Yeah.
CB: What was your role there? Just delivering aircraft was it? For —
DD: Well no. I was only, only there was an OTU going on.
CB: It was still running.
DD: It was still running.
CB: Right.
DD: And we were getting English people in and I was an instructor there.
CB: Before you did the —
DD: No. The ferry flight came first and then we went back to the OTU.
CB: Right.
DD: That was it.
CB: And how long did that go on for?
DD: Not for very long because it closed down. And then —
CB: Then what?
DD: Eventually I was sent to Brize [pause] not Brize Norton. To Finningley. Bomber Command Instructor School.
CB: And you were training instructors were you?
DD: Well, yes. People who had finished their tours. This included pilots navigators and navigators. We had to teach them to be instructors. We had a few wireless people but not many. But their jobs were to go out then and teach others.
CB: And how long did you do that for?
DD: Oh, I was there for about a year. And then I, you know, the war had finished and it was getting a bit iffy so I decided, you know I’d come out and go back. My father wanted me out there.
CB: So when did you actually leave the RAF?
DD: The beginning of ’46.
CB: You were demobbed in the normal way.
DD: Well, not in the normal way. No. I got a class B discharge.
CB: Right.
DD: Which was an immediate. You know immediately coming out.
CB: Yeah.
DD: I had to wait three — I think it was three months until I got posted out to the Palestine Police stationed at Jenin.
CB: So you’d volunteered then.
DD: I volunteered for it. Yeah.
CB: As you were serving out your demob leave was it that you volunteered?
DD: No. No. I didn’t get any demob leave. I got a demob suit and all that sort of business but I had volunteered to transfer. That’s why I got a class B discharge.
CB: Yeah. To the police.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So the motive of applying for the Palestine Police was what?
DD: To get to Africa.
CB: Right. How was that going to work?
DD: Well, it was more or less although it was semi, it was more or less half. Half civilian and half [pause] not army but what do you call, what do you call it?
CB: What? Military police?
DD: Semi-military and half civilian. But you could, you know if you didn’t like it you could buy yourself out. That was the idea. Buy myself out and then I could get down to [unclear] and up to Nyasaland.
CB: So what role was yours in the Palestine police?
DD: I was only just a British constable. Just a basic.
CB: So they gave you training there or in Britain?
DD: Well, I didn’t have any training at all because I ended up in hospital.
CB: Why was that?
DD: I got Blackwater Fever?
CB: Oh. How did you get that?
DD: Well, the boats that used to come up from [unclear] had, you know sometimes they had mosquitoes in and they’d got a chap off the boat who was down with Blackwater Fever. Brought him to the hospital I was in. Probably the mosquito that had bitten him then bit me. I got it. So I was invalided out. And that was that.
CB: To where?
DD: I was invalided back to this country. And that was the end of that.
CB: So that was the opposite way from what —
DD: Yeah.
CB: You wanted to go.
DD: And that, it took me another three years before I could get a boat. As I told you. I got a job with the African, not the African Lace Corporation err what were they? They were tied up with the African lace. They used to send people out to do jobs in Africa. So I got a job with them because you know one of the people who, the person who wrote to me was a friend of my father’s. Had lived out in Nyasaland.
CB: Right.
DD: So he got me out there.
CB: But it took three years to do it.
DD: Yeah. It did.
CB: What were you actually doing in that time?
DD: Oh I got various little jobs you know. You know, I didn’t do very much. I joined actually a chap who did landscaping and a sort of a gardening job because I didn’t want to be inside. I got a job with him for a while.
CB: Where was that?
DD: That was Redhill.
CB: You were staying with your grandparents, were you?
DD: Yes. My grandmother.
CB: Right.
DD: It brought some money in. It wasn’t a well-paid job but I knew, you know eventually I was going to get back to Africa. So I couldn’t go for a decent job until after I’d been there a year. I did get a job with a garage.
CB: Doing?
DD: In Redhill.
CB: Doing what?
DD: Well, I was —
CB: The electrics was it?
DD: The electrics. Yeah. I was, I was looking after the batteries you know. The batteries and things like that. And then you know I got this. I kept an eye out for anything going in Africa and my father was trying to get me out there. But eventually I saw this advertisement in, “The Times.” Wrote off. Got the job.
CB: What was it?
DD: Oh, just a store keeper in a — working in a store. So it got me out there and —
CB: Where?
DD: Out to Nyasaland.
CB: Right.
DD: And I didn’t fancy that work at all. Obviously. So I repaid. I’d saved up money then and I repaid them and I bought myself out. And joined my father. That was it.
CB: And what was he doing then?
DD: He’d retired but he’d bought this place down in Rhodesia and no sooner than I did that —
CB: This was tobacco.
DD: Tobacco. Yeah. As soon as I did that I joined him. Got stuck in. Yeah.
CB: So how was that, how was that managed? Was there a professional manager?
DD: No, my father was looking after it.
CB: He was still doing it.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Right.
DD: He was doing it. But I gradually sort of started taking over the curing and sorting of the tobacco and selling it on the, in the auction houses. And after I’d been there a second year there we hit the highest price ever known because we managed to get some American tobacco seed which was called Hicks. And that produced a larger leaf and a brighter leaf which we, we managed to get an ounce of that. An ounce of seed. Grew that. And we were the first people to hit a hundred pence on the auction floor. At a hundred pence, you know, a pound. And then [pause] a little bit later that was, then my father passed on.
CB: Oh. So —
DD: I couldn’t afford, I hadn’t got the money because we were still paying. Paying out on the tractors and things. I couldn’t afford to, you know stay there.
CB: What? To keep it rolling.
DD: No. So I sold up and came back to this country.
CB: So when you sold up was it a ready market for other —
DD: Oh yeah. It was a good market.
CB: Right.
DD: Yeah. But actually you couldn’t get a lot of money back but we managed to just about break even. That was it.
CB: Because you’d — the tractors and equipment were on loans were they? So —
DD: Yeah. And all the fire equipment for the barns was expensive stuff.
CB: Right.
DD: Which you couldn’t buy outright. You had to buy, you know it was like a never never.
CB: Yeah. So, what are we talking about now? That’s — it took you three years to get out there.
DD: Aye.
CB: So, that was 1949.
DD: Yeah. ’49. And I was there ‘til ’54. Wasn’t it?
HD: Well, I met you in ’56.
DD: ’55.
HD: Was it ’55?
DD: ’55. Yeah. ’54 I came back to this country. Yeah.
CB: Ok. So what did you do then?
DD: Oh. Various jobs. I had a couple of jobs. One job I did or two jobs actually. One I lost the job because my son was born. I met Hilda and we married and had our first son and because I took a day off I lost the job.
CB: Oh.
DD: Yeah. Do you remember that?
HD: Was that when I had Jan?
DD: Yeah. When Jan was born.
HD: Yeah. You took a day off didn’t you?
DD: I was working at — what was it? Fields. And because I took a day off without telling them because Hilda started having Jan the night before. The Sunday night. And —
HD: You took the Monday off.
DD: I took the Monday off and I was sacked. Just like that.
CB: A bit severe.
DD: Yeah. It was severe. I thought —
HD: I wouldn’t happen today would that. Would it?
DD: Oh God no.
CB: So what did you do then?
DD: Well, I got a job. Where was it? As a salesman didn’t I? But I didn’t like that. Anyway, you know I could see there was no future in what I was doing so I decided you know the air force was. So, I went in and looked into that. They said they’d have me back.
CB: When was that?
DD: That was when?
HD: 1959 that was.
DD: No. ’58, wasn’t it? When I started. ’58. Because ’59 I went back in.
CB: And what did you do? So, you left the RAF as a warrant officer.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Originally. And with all the trappings of that. When you returned what did they do about your rank?
DD: My rank? It went down to corporal.
CB: Oh. And what were you doing?
DD: Well, I went, I didn’t have to do the basic training. I went straight in and went to Hullavington where I was on — was it — was it Parachute Servicing Unit.
CB: Parachute School.
DD: Yeah. I went there.
CB: And what were you doing there?
DD: Well, as a corporal I was a checker for the parachute packers.
CB: Checking the quality of what they’d done.
DD: Yeah. Yeah. I was there for about a year wasn’t it? About a year. Then I went to Watchfield.
CB: And you got a quarter did you? Because you were married. You got a quarter, did you?
DD: We got a quarter. Yeah.
CB: As a corporal.
DD: As a corporal. Yeah.
CB: What was that like?
DD: It wasn’t too bad. At Bicester. Was it?
HD: No. It was quite nice.
DD: Yeah.
CB: At Bicester?
DD: Well, we were at Bicester when it first — sorry.
CB: Hullavington.
DD: Hullavington. We went from Bicester, I went to Watchfield and then down to Hullavington didn’t I? That was it. And then I went back to Watchfield.
CB: Right. So, Watchfield. What was going on there? Because it used to be the Air Traffic School in the war.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So what had happened?
DD: They were dropping. Well, it was a training ground for dropping MSPs and also troops.
CB: What’s MSP stand for?
DD: What is it? Referring to parachutes MSP is a Medium Special Parachute.
CB: Right.
DD: The heavy duty ones.
CB: Right.
DD: Dropping Land Rovers and such like.
HD: From Watchfield —
DD: Yeah.
HD: We went to Netheravon.
DD: Oh that’s right. Netheravon. Oh God. Yeah. I’d forgotten about that.
HD: We didn’t go to, we didn’t go to Hullavington until after we had [unclear]
DD: That’s right. We went from —
HD: Watchfield. The first time.
DD: We went to Netheravon.
HD: Netheravon.
CB: And what happened there?
DD: I was running a parachute unit.
CB: And what rank were you by this time?
DD: I was sergeant.
CB: Right. So, were you a sergeant at Watchfield?
DD: Yes.
CB: Right.
HD: You got made up at Watchfield.
DD: Aye. I went to Netheravon. I was there for how long? About —
HD: About nine month.
DD: Nine months and then we went to Hong Kong.
CB: Ok. And you were still a sergeant or have you got promoted again?
DD: No. I stuck to sergeant.
HD: You did ask to get a commission though didn’t you?
DD: Yes.
HD: To go for a commission.
DD: Out in Hong Kong we had our own little parachute unit you know. To look after the aircraft coming in.
CB: Right.
DD: I had a small staff there. We were there for — what? Two and a half years. And then we came back to Hullavington. That’s it. Yeah.
CB: So the parachute section out in Hong Kong. Did that require more common re-packing of parachutes because of the climate?
DD: No. We didn’t. No. We didn’t. We kept emergency equipment for any aircraft coming in. That was the main job there.
HD: Yeah. It was very interesting out there because the Vietnam war on at that time wasn’t it?
DD: And we used to get all the Americans coming up from Vietnam.
CB: Vietnam.
DD: Yeah.
HD: And the bombs going all around the island.
DD: Oh yeah. Whilst we were there you know the Chinese started playing up a bit. And I was official machine gunner.
CB: Oh.
DD: One machine gun we had there [laughs]
CB: Where did you keep that?
DD: Well, I didn’t keep it. It was kept in the armoury. But I would have to go on the top of the roof and sit there with it. That was my job.
CB: What kind of gun was that?
DD: It was a Lewis gun.
CB: With a rotating drum.
DD: Yeah. That’s all. Oh it was, it was a funny place that.
CB: That was on the airfield.
DD: Not on the airfield. It was just on, it used to be the old seaplane unit.
CB: Oh.
DD: And, oh and then I took over the running of the cinema. It was, it was a glory job.
HD: But you had a lot to do with, I mean when that plane landed didn’t you?
DD: Oh yes. When we had the emergencies.
CB: What sort of things?
DD: Oh.
CB: With aircraft you mean?
DD: With aircraft. Yeah. They’d lost an aircraft out at sea and they thought it was shot down by the Chinese. And we had an Argosy out there that I had to go on it and be a sort of an observer.
CB: Out at the crash site.
DD: No. We couldn’t find it.
CB: No. But you went out as an observer.
DD: It was, yeah.
CB: To find the crash.
DD: To try and find it. See any wreckage or anything.
CB: Yeah.
DD: But we found nothing at all. I don’t know what happened there but it was something to do with some — we found out later it was something to do with some spies that had been on the plane. And that’s why they wanted to find the wreckage and find them I suppose.
CB: Yeah.
DD: I don’t know.
CB: What sort of a plane was it?
DD: An Argosy.
CB: Oh right.
DD: It was not stationed there but it had been there for a couple of weeks. It was due to go out the following week and they just asked for people to go on the plane to observe.
CB: Because they needed lots of eyes to see.
DD: Yeah.
CB: So, how long were you in Hong Kong?
DD: Two and a half years.
CB: What was the quarter like there?
DD: Well, we had, we started off in civilian flats actually in the town.
CB: Oh.
DD: And then eventually we got a bungalow on the airfield.
CB: Yeah. Air conditioned?
DD: No. Fans [laughs]
CB: So, two and a half years later you returned to the UK. Where did you go then?
DD: Hullavington.
CB: Right. And what’s your new role there?
DD: I took over the, I was in the office then recording stuff. Numbers of parachutes packed and all that sort of business.
CB: Because you were the specialist parachute person.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Right. How long did that last?
DD: I did a bit of time study there as well.
CB: Oh right. They sent you on a course did they?
DD: No. They knew I’d been on a course. When I, you know, when I was at Bradford I’d been on that course. Time study. I had it in my background so they got me doing that. Working out times for the packing of parachutes.
CB: Then what? So, you were there at Hullavington how long?
HD: Nine month. It was usually nine month everywhere we went really.
DD: And then we went to — where was it?
HD: Watchfield again.
DD: Watchfield. Oh yeah. Back doing the same job as before.
CB: Right.
HD: Then about nine month there and we went back to Hullavington.
DD: Yeah. And then got posted to Brize. Didn’t we?
HD: No. We were never posted to Brize. We went to —
DD: Not Brize.
HD: To Abingdon.
DD: Abingdon, yeah. To Abingdon, Sorry.
CB: Ok. And what happened at Abingdon?
HD: Oh we stayed there for —
CB: It was a transport base by then wasn’t it?
DD: Yeah. More or less the same. I was running, they were sending, I was attached to the parachutists. The parachutists again. We used to get the supplies up from Hullavington and then issue them out to troops. That was about it actually.
CB: So when did you retire from the RAF?
DD: ’81.
CB: Ok. And where did you retire from?
DD: From Brize.
CB: Ok. From Brize or Abingdon?
DD: Brize.
HD: Well, I I stayed in Abingdon.
CB: Yeah but you —
HD: Because I I didn’t want to move the boys.
DD: We had quarters in Abingdon but I was working at Brize.
CB: Yeah. After Abingdon. Ok. And so you’d done a total of how many years in the RAF?
DD: Was it four years during the war and twenty two?
CB: Afterwards.
DD: Second tour.
CB: So, they gave you an RAF pension for that.
DD: Yeah.
CB: Based on —
DD: That’s why, one of the reasons why I went in.
CB: Yeah. Based on which rank?
DD: Based on a sergeant. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
DD: They didn’t count the wartime because I was out longer. I was out too long. Although, when I was out I did join the Reserves and I was flying at Redhill. You know, just the little Ansons and Tiger Moths.
CB: Doing what?
DD: Nothing. I didn’t. I wasn’t, it wasn’t full time. I was part time.
CB: No. No. But what were you doing? You were flying the aeroplane, were you?
DD: Yeah.
CB: Piloting it.
DD: No. No. No. No.
CB: No.
DD: No. I did get to. I started learning to pilot. Yes. In fact, I flew from [pause] in a Tiger Moth from where was it now? Somewhere down, somewhere in Devon back to [pause] that was my only, not solo. I wasn’t solo. I had a pilot you know a chap who was with me.
CB: Yeah.
DD: He was teaching me though.
CB: How long were you in the Reserve? It was the RAF VR rather than VRT.
DD: Yeah. RAF VR.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Until I went out to Africa. And they wanted, actually they wanted me to come back.
CB: So, you left the RAF in ’81.
DD: Eighty. That was ’81 yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DD: And I didn’t have anything more to do with the air force then.
CB: No.
DD: That was the finish.
CB: Right. What did you do after then as a job?
DD: Oh. I got a job with a newspaper firm at Eynsham.
CB: Oh.
DD: That was it wasn’t it?
CB: What did you do then?
HD: Yeah.
DD: I was on security. Sort of — that’s all I did actually. There was two of us there.
CB: For how long?
DD: Was it — how many years?
HD: Not long. You weren’t there all that long. About three or four years.
DD: Oh, it was more than that.
HD: Was it?
DD: Yeah. It was about seven or eight years.
HD: Was it?
DD: Of course it was.
HD: I can’t remember.
DD: [unclear] went bankrupt and his brother took over. Went on there. Yeah. About eight years.
CB: And then?
DD: That was it. I retired.
CB: So, how was it that you went back up to Lincolnshire?
HD: Yeah. Well we bought the house from —
DD: We bought a house up there.
CB: You liked the air.
DD: Well, actually we got a council house in Abingdon.
HD: And we had this buy to, you know the buy —
Other: Right to buy.
HD: Yeah.
Others: Yeah.
DD: So I bought that one and with the proceeds of that I bought the house up in Mablethorpe. That was it until the family wanted us. Wanted us back here.
HD: You took ill didn’t you? And he couldn’t — I couldn’t, I had no support up there.
CB: No.
HD: So my family was still in Abingdon. So we came back down here didn’t we?
DD: Yeah.
HD: They wanted us back down here. So, although we got quite a bit, we did make some money from the house didn’t we?
DD: Quite a bit.
HD: But it wasn’t enough to buy down here so we had to go back into council again. I mean so we put the money in. We put the money away.
DD: If you wanted we could buy this one.
HD: Oh, we could now but we’re not going to bother.
DD: No.
HD: And so we’re quite reasonably off you know.
CB: Yeah.
HD: We’re not wealthy but —
CB: Comfortable.
HD: We’re comfortable.
CB: Comfortable.
HD: Yeah.
DD: At least we can leave the children something.
CB: Yes.
DD: See, if we’d bought another house it would have meant selling it again and all that sort of business.
HD: Yeah. We didn’t want to go through all that.
DD: Whereas we can leave them quite a good amount. So they’ll be set for life then.
HD: And they don’t have the bother of, you know with us.
CB: Yeah.
HD: They can hand it straight back. So that’s our life. Let’s hear yours now.
CB: Very interesting. Thank you.
[recording paused]
DD: Searchlight business.
CB: Yeah. Could you just go back to the blue searchlight? I’ll do it because of the, because of the searchlights they used blue lights. What was the significance of that?
DD: That was the master searchlight. That was going more or less all the time. Waving around but being controlled from the ground.
CB: By radar.
DD: By radar.
CB: Right.
DD: And when they picked up an aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That would show up somehow. You know. We didn’t know too much about it but then the searchlights around it they were, you know. I don’t know how many there were around it. It would come up the beam to catch that plane. But we were — my pilot was crafty. He would [unclear] he went through it.
CB: Straight down.
DD: Straight down. We never got caught again.
CB: So did he give a, make a call before he dived so deeply?
DD: No. He didn’t say a word. He just [unclear] Just like that. We were hitting the roof. Oh God. Peter will tell you that. He has a vivid remembrance of that.
CB: So this wasn’t designed as a joke. It was because he needed to take action quickly.
DD: No. It wasn’t. No joke. No. His reaction was amazing.
CB: So, what you’re saying are you is that when the blue light illuminated your aircraft it was necessary — how quickly did you need to respond to that?
DD: Well, you waited until the searchlight started coming up. They went up, you know. Shining through the blue light.
CB: Yeah.
DD: To try and catch you.
CB: Oh, I see.
DD: So if you went [unclear] you did that you could bypass it. That was at the beginning. I don’t know whether it worked later. But it was a standing joke in the squadron about that. I think other aircraft, other aircraft behind us, you know must have seen it and possibly they did the same. Some of them. I don’t know. But we were one of the first to hit the [laughs]
Other: What sort of angle of descent was it?
DD: Pardon?
Other: I mean you said [unclear] straight down.
DD: Well, as far as I know it was straight down.
Other: Oh really.
DD: And then he gradually brought it out of the dive and we ended up about two hundred feet from the ground.
Other: Oh.
CB: Oh you went as far as that.
DD: Oh yeah. Right down to the ground.
CB: Right.
DD: And then we skimmed all the way back to the coast.
CB: Oh. This is after dropping the bombs.
DD: After dropping. Yeah.
CB: Yes.
DD: After dropping the bombs. Yes.
CB: Did you get coned by a blue light before the target?
DD: No. No. We were once or twice in ordinary searchlights but we got out of them. But that blue. That was a nasty bit of work. It caught a lot of people.
CB: Now, when, just going back to the bombing run, the bombing run is a sequence of lining up then dropping the bombs. Bombs gone. But then a photograph had to be taken. So —
DD: Yeah.
CB: How did you feel about that delay? Before you —
DD: It was accepted.
CB: Yeah.
DD: We couldn’t do anything about it. You had to have proof.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Because if you didn’t have that proof they wouldn’t allow you to take it as an op.
CB: Right.
DD: It wouldn’t be counted. So everyone had to do that really.
CB: So what was the delay? Assuming you were flying at eighteen, twenty thousand. What was the delay?
DD: The delay was around about [pause] Oh I would say about, depending on the height actually it wasn’t long because a Cookie went down very quickly.
CB: That’s the four thousand pounder.
DD: Yeah. Four thousand pounder. To be quite honest I couldn’t, I couldn’t tell you. It’s under half a minute.
CB: Yeah.
DD: It wouldn’t be more. Around about that.
CB: So, the key is that you’re trying to capture the explosion of the bombs on impact.
DD: Once it went off then you were —
CB: Yeah.
DD: You could go. But it wasn’t — sometimes it was alright. Other times you know you were a little bit worried about it.
CB: The sequence was though was it that the bombs went.
DD: Bombs went.
CB: Then, then the flash went.
DD: Then the flash—
CB: Down.
DD: The flash went at the end of the bombs.
CB: Right.
DD: Bombs. And it took about a half a minute I suppose.
CB: Ok.
DD: Somewhere in that region. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t swear to it but it was somewhere in that region.
CB: In your time on operations or perhaps any other time but what was your most terrifying experience?
[pause]
DD: I think it was that blue. Blue light. Blue searchlight. Because that was really frightening. Where you just, you were sitting there, you know going along normally and the next thing you knew you were up there [laughs] and looking down. Looking down at people. And it was amazing. Well, Peter was the opposite way around. He was looking up. Didn’t know where he was.
CB: No.
DD: But I think that’s about the most frightening thing.
CB: What was the most pleasant memory that you had about being in the RAF?
DD: Most pleasant.
CB: Was it during the war? Or afterwards perhaps.
DD: It was after the war. Finningley held an airshow and of course the Lanc was a sort of a main thing there. There were other aircraft but the Lanc was a bit of the — but they did a four-engined over shoot. Three-engined. Two. And we were supposed to do a one-engined. Yeah. Mind you that’s alright and the Lanc would fly on one. You know, if you were high. Mind you were dropping all the time down.
CB: Dropping down all the time. Yeah.
DD: Yeah. But they were going to do this over the runway and I was in that with the wing commander. And when he said, ‘I’m not going to do the one,’ [laughs] that was the most pleasant. Because had you, I was worried about that.
CB: A sigh of relief.
DD: Aye. I think that was the thing that really stuck in my mind. We did, you know the two engine. That was alright. No problems. But when he said one. Do you know I was really chuffed.
CB: The final thing is we didn’t really talk about after the war and keeping in contact with the crew. Now, your rear gunner is the one, Peter Smith is the one you’ve kept in contact with.
DD: Yeah.
CB: What about the others? Did it fall away or did you never have?
DD: It faded away actually. I met my pilot in 2002 because he came over here. Oh it was great seeing him again. But the others —
HD: Peter.
DD: Oh Code. You know the warrant officer. Warren. Warren Code. He died. Passed on. And also the bomb aimer. So those three you [pause] those three you know we had no contact with but Peter went over to America, to an aircrew meeting of some sort. I can’t — he’ll tell you that anyway. He’ll give you all the info. He met up with most of the crew there.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Except the English ones. He met up with the two Canadians.
CB: Yeah. I meant that there was no link with the British side.
DD: No.
CB: Other than Peter.
DD: No. We lost track completely.
CB: Yeah.
DD: I think that happened a lot of cases actually.
CB: It did.
DD: In the end. I think in a way you were glad you were finished with the air force in a way.
CB: What was people’s attitude at the end?
DD: Oh. Not very good. Aircrew were looked down on.
CB: Were they?
DD: Yeah.
CB: By whom?
DD: The populace.
CB: What, what started that do you think?
DD: Well, it more or less started about the bombing of towns. That was mainly their idea. They didn’t like that idea. We shouldn’t have done that. It should have been military targets all the time. But that couldn’t happen in the war. But aircrew were looked down upon.
CB: Were they?
DD: Yeah. And some of them had quite a rough time.
CB: Did they really?
DD: Yeah. Churchill ignored us.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Bomber Harris was kicked out. Went to south Africa. Yeah. He felt it too.
CB: I’m going to stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: One thing we didn’t ask, David was you were trained as a wireless operator which was a real skill and after the war you might well have followed that up as a, in relevant areas. Why didn’t you use your new skill there?
DD: Well, there were too, there were too many things going on in my mind at that time. Going back to Africa and how to get there. I didn’t want to tie myself down. I had to be free to be able to go at a, you know, quickly.
CB: Yeah.
DD: That was the main reason. I wasn’t really keen on being a wireless operator actually. I would have preferred being a gunner. I would. Because that’s what I volunteered to do. But they said no. Wireless operator/air gunner. So that was that. I was really forced into that. As I say I wanted to be a gunner.
CB: Yes.
DD: I’d have enjoyed that more.
CB: You weren’t alone with that requirement but what, what was it that attracted you most to the thought of being an air gunner?
DD: I think it was my grandmother who did this actually. During the First World War she had a lot to do with RAF sea people. And in fact one of them, what was his name? Ball, I think. Used to be a visitor to my — he shot down one of the zepps. And she was always telling me stories, you know. They told her. And it as a youngster I grew up on that. And I always fancied the idea of flying anyway. So when the war came along you know that’s the first thing I thought of.
CB: You felt you wanted to give it to them directly.
DD: More or less. Yes. Yes. Because whilst I was in London we had a, I’ll have to tell you this. My grandmother owned a very old Victorian house. You know, one of these three storey high things but it was attached to the next part. You know. It was split into two houses. And one particular night the bombing raids were on and I was always shoved down under the stairs. You know, by the gas meter and always the smell of gas. Horrible. Anyway, there was a lull and I wanted to go to the toilet. So I went upstairs to the first floor. Went to the toilet. Whilst I was sitting there a aircraft came over and dropped a bomb which landed just the other side of the next house. Cracked the pan. I ended up on the floor [laughs] That’s what happened to me.
CB: A bit of a mess then?
DD: It was a bit of a mess [laughs] I hated the Germans after that.
CB: Of course. Who wouldn’t?
Other: Disturbing the dethronement seems to the height of ignorance.
DD: It was terrible that. I was frightened actually.
CB: So, in the bombing in general because you were there before you joined the RAF what was your feeling about what was going on?
DD: Well, I hadn’t really formed any thoughts but I thought then if they can do that to us we can do that to them. That was my idea really, I suppose. In a way. Knowing that people in you know in London had died as they had I suppose I wanted to retaliate. You know kids ideas are a bit different to what you think nowadays obviously. But I’ve never really thought about it but that’s, that’s I suppose that’s the way I thought.
CB: To what extent did you have contact with people who had been in the raids? On the receiving end.
DD: Well, in our street, or in my grandmother’s street there were about five or six houses that had been bombed. People we knew had died. I suppose that was in the back of my mind as well. You know a lot of things went on when you were a youngster. Especially in raids. Yeah.
CB: What was the general public attitude during the raids?
DD: People who were in houses, I think they were a bit frightened you know. Well obviously. But people who managed to get shelters, you know like the underground I think they didn’t think so much about it. But then there was that case of one shelter being bombed wasn’t there? That was terrible.
CB: Cannon street. Yes.
DD: Cannon street. Yeah.
CB: So, did you grandmother have a shelter in her garden?
DD: No. Not in the garden. No. She had one of these things that went under the table.
CB: Right.
DD: It was sort of a box about this high. You had to lie down to get in to it. But she had that. Because she was then about eighty something. She couldn’t have gone outside because most of them got water in them and no, she couldn’t have. She couldn’t have done that. But actually I put myself in. I went in there one night to try it. I didn’t like it. It was claustrophobic. Very claustrophobic. Because, you know it was so low really when you come to think of it. And you’d got all this wire. Wire netting around it and then the heavy iron on top and below you. They weren’t nice things.
CB: They were designed simply to avoid being crushed.
DD: Yes. More or less. Yeah. Or being caught in masonry.
CB: Yeah. That’s what I —
DD: At least it gave you some leeway. Give you some air.
CB: Yes.
DD: The idea was good. But I wouldn’t have fancied it. Staying in one. Even though there was the gas in that under stairs. I hate the smell of gas. Although gas in those days seemed to be much stronger than it is nowadays.
CB: Well, it’s a different type of gas isn’t it?
DD: Yeah. It was —
CB: One other point about aircrew is you were in the, of the, based on the time, well fed.
DD: Oh we were. Yes. Very well fed.
CB: So, what was the food generally?
DD: Well, it was more or less not, we didn’t have fancy food. It was straightforward nutritious food.
CB: Before an operation what did you get then?
DD: Oh eggs and bacon [laughs] and when we came back as well. In fact you got more or less egg bound the number of eggs you got. But everyone else only had, they would have one a week or something like that. I think my grandmother had one. One a week.
CB: The civilian population had one a week.
DD: One a week.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Something like that. I don’t think it was more than that. But we used to get cheese. And we used to get milk. Aircrew used to get a pint of milk a day and you used to go into the mess and go to the bar and say, ‘I’ll have my milk.’ You’d have that one then, one sort of lunchtime. One in the evening. Of course, when you went on trips, on ops rather, you would get your chocolate, Horlicks tablets, wakey wakey pills and some fruity sweets. Every time. And I never used to eat many of them at the time. I’d probably take them back and give it to people.
CB: And, right and what did you drink? Coffee or tea? Or what was it?
DD: It’s wasn’t a lot of, there was some coffee. You generally got that at the debriefing.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Coffee. It was generally tea you drank.
CB: In a flask was it? [pause] Because it was pretty cold up there.
DD: No. I didn’t get a flask. Do you know I can’t remember what we did there. We did have a drink but I can’t remember what it was now. It might have been coffee. To keep you awake. Because those wakey wakey pills you wouldn’t take them until you were getting near the actual target.
CB: Right.
DD: You’d take one then. And that would get you through the target and then one on the way back.
CB: Because the trips were how many hours?
DD: Oh it was varied. I think the longest we did was coming up to eleven hours. Ten and a half. Eleven. That was the longest.
CB: Where was that to?
DD: Now, where was that now? Oh God. Down the east. The east part of Germany. Where the hell was it now? Do you know I can’t, I can’t remember the name.
CB: But on the Baltic coast area.
DD: More or less up nearly up to there. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Stettin or — you didn’t do Peenemunde.
DD: No.
CB: It’s a pity your logbook was stolen isn’t it?
DD: I know.
CB: Because that’s an absolute travesty.
DD: I’ve been upset all my life over that because it was all written out nicely and signed by you know wing commanders, group captains. We had all sorts of people signing them. I’ve always regretted that. But you’ll be able to get an idea when, if you go and see Peter.
CB: Yes.
[recording paused]
DD: Well, one night when we bombed we didn’t lose the Cookie.
CB: It didn’t go.
DD: It didn’t go.
CB: So the Cookie was the big four thousand pounder.
DD: Yeah. The bomb. We were flying. Now, where was that? We were flying — not Nuremberg. Next one up there. Coming back from that district and we were flying north of Switzerland. The bomb aimer had to, you know come back.
CB: Stuttgart was it?
DD: It could have been Stuttgart. It think it might have been. Yeah. He had to release the bomb but when that bomb hit the ground there was the most massive explosion. We never knew what it was.
CB: It had hit something.
DD: It hit something.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Of course, there was no photoflash or anything but yeah it was interesting that. We never did find out what was, what it was.
CB: No. Now, did you ever return to Germany after the war?
DD: No. I didn’t go back.
CB: And did you go on any Cooks Tours that they ran after the war?
DD: No.
CB: To see the bombing.
DD: Oh, now on the, with the Lancs.
CB: Yeah.
DD: We took ground staff across to show them. Flew around France and Germany.
CB: From the —
DD: From the place up north [laughs – pause] I’ve forgotten the name again.
CB: But when you [pause] what Granston?
DD: No. No. No. Not Gamston.
CB: Gamston I meant to say.
DD: Finningley.
CB: Oh Finningley.
DD: From Finningley. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
DD: We took —
CB: In Lancasters.
DD: Two or three trips we did actually across there.
CB: So, what, who were the people you were taking on the trips?
DD: Ground staff.
CB: Your own crews.
DD: Well, no we didn’t have our own crews then.
CB: No.
DD: That was only on the —
CB: So, they were, what sort of people were they?
DD: Well, anyone.
CB: Anybody on the airfield who was interested.
DD: Anyone on the airfield who wanted to go.
CB: Yeah.
DD: Really. More or less.
CB: And when you got over you would fly at a higher level would you and then well you —
DD: Well, normally. Yes. Come down.
CB: And then ten thousand. Then come down.
DD: If we were flying over the Ruhr we’d come down fairly low and let them see.
CB: Yes.
DD: Especially Cologne.
CB: Yes. What height would you fly over there?
DD: Oh, a couple of thousand feet.
CB: Oh, I see.
DD: Right down.
CB: So people could see.
DD: Oh yeah.
CB: And what was their reaction to that?
DD: A bit aghast. You know, they wouldn’t say very much. Probably they did say something when they got back on the ground.
CB: Yes.
DD: But you couldn’t talk very much.
CB: No.
DD: When you were up there. But I think they were a little bit shocked.
Other: At the devastation.
DD: Yeah. And that’s one of the reasons why I think aircrew were looked down on after the war. Not looked down on but, you know, ‘You bombed civilians,’ and that sort of business. But I heard one person say that. Which wasn’t very nice.
CB: And of course the factories were in amongst the civilian population.
DD: Of course they were. Yeah.
CB: Because people didn’t commute.
DD: They didn’t realise that.
CB: No.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with David Kenneth McKenzie Dall
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ADallDKM161122, PDallDKM1601
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:30:58 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
David Dall spent his early life in South Africa. He moved to the UK as a child to live with his grandmother and continue his education. He was enthralled by the stories his grandmother told him about the Royal Flying Corps during the First World War and so when it came time to volunteer it was obvious where he would apply to the RAF. He had wanted to train as a gunner but was posted for training as a wireless operator/air gunner. He was posted to 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
fear
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Hullavington
RAF Ludford Magna
searchlight
shelter
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/791/10772/PDaviesRS1801.1.jpg
00f54a2d24961e60d3f61e60a9f314ac
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/791/10772/ADaviesRS180201.2.mp3
800ef8d99ba90c254a8396ffd80dc2df
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davies, Ronald
Ronald S Davies
R S Davies
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ron Davies (1921 - 2020, 186892 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Davies, RS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is-
RD: No just-
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott and I'm interviewing Ron Davies of 101 Squadron today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s digital archive. We’re at Ron’s home and it’s the 1st of February 2018. Also present at the interview is Ron’s son Peter. So, first of all, thank you Ron for agreeing to talk to me today. So, do you want to tell us what life was like before the RAF for you?
RD: My father was a farmer, and he’d been in the first war and suffered from a lot of damage and, so when the second war [pauses] broke out, I was furious to find I was in a reserved occupation. I felt I wanted to emulate what he’d done. In the event, I did join the air force, which [chuckles] almost came to blows with my father, but it was something I had to do and something which I’ve never regretted. And so, at the age of eighteen in the spring of 1940, I joined the air force as a pilot UT. Went to No 1 ITW in Newquay and then to No 8 EFTS in Anstey near Leicestershire, and I was there when Coventry was bombed and we were just ten miles from Coventry, and Anstey was a small pre-war flying station, and relied on the outside private people to maintain and train the planes. After Coventry of course, the place wasn’t closed down but our course finished, and we were then sent to Manchester, were eventually posted to Canada- Sorry, to America, because we were supposed to be trained as co-pilots onto the Sunderlands, flying boats. Now, are we coping? I spent- First of all, four months in Atlanta and trained on Boeing-Stearmans and from there, the- We went to Jacksonville Academy and we went onto fly the Vultee Valiant, which was greater because America was neutral, their standard of flying was much higher and with less pressure than England. When we finished onto that, we went onto Cessnas, twin-engine planes, and just a month before the end of the season and we had an unfortunate accident and we were- Both the co-pilot and myself were dismissed and we were sent back to Canada. Here we were lost, and suffered because we’d been in an accident, we were sent down to the hospital for check-ups and they kept us there as attendants. So [chuckles] having joined to fly we were now almost slaves in this unfortunate place. Then came Pearl Harbour and we- Suddenly everyone realised that our time was being wasted so we were then re-trained as navigators and I went over to Port Albert, which is just outside Goderich and I spent twenty-six weeks training on navigation and astro and all the things that entailed to it. Eventually we managed to get back to England and by now England was full of aircrew. We’d been away for so long and were sent to an army barracks in Whitley Bay, and we spent nearly three months there and to escape it we managed to get onto a consignment of bomb aimers who were being trained at Millom, and I think I've already told you that twenty-seven of us were posted to 10 OTU in Abingdon to fly Whitleys and then Halifaxes. But to help a colleague I switched to flight- To go to 28 OTU Wymeswold. From there we moved to the satellite which was Castle Donnington, and we completed our OTU on Wellingtons and we did two nickels which were flying over France with leaflets, and then we went from there to Halifaxes on Heavy Conversion Unit at Blyton. We did six weeks on those. From there we went to Hemswell which was No 1 LFS, Lancaster Flying School. We did ten days on that, and then we were rushed to 101 Squadron where we picked up an eighth member who was Keith Gosling and we arrived at 101 the last week in May of 1944, and we remained there until the 6th of November, during which time I completed thirty-one operations and another seven abortions. So altogether it was the equivalent of quite a lot of trips. We- During that time, Keith Gosling was lost and his replacement was a man called Roy Hall, and he stayed with us for the rest of the tour.
SP: So, Ron do you want to tell me a little bit- You had an eighth crew member, so obviously your eighth crew member Keith Gosling, you said was lost, do you want to tell me a little about what happened to Keith?
RD: Ey?
SP: Do you want to tell me a little about what happened to Keith Gosling then, you said he was lost so?
RD: He was lost with Flying Officer Meier[?]. Because, there were more crews than there were special operators, occasionally if the special operators own crew wasn’t flying then had to stand in, so he stood in and it was- Unfortunate thing, it was Meier’s first trip, and then I don’t quite know.
SP: So, Ron obviously there’s some details about Keith which we’re going to cover at the end, so do you want to carry on with where you were up to with your tour?
PD: If we- Can I just-
RD: The eighth member was a German speaking operator of a special equipment called ABC, airborne cigar and this was a jamming device which detected correspondence between the ground and the, and the enemy aircrews and their idea was so that it would give us a little bit of breathing space by jamming this. The unfortunate off-shoot of that was that the transmission itself was a warning device to the aircraft, so 101 Squadron itself suffered much more greater casualties than the average squadron. The invasion assistance that we were giving began to wane and we started going back to Germany again, and flying to many places. I don’t want to say too much about that, but could almost really wrap over and say that we finally finished our tour on the 4th of November and at that point- Ah, just remembered something else, and we were flying F-Fox and the first one was lost on the 12th of June and the second one was lost on the 30th of August, with another crew flying it because we were stood down that night and in the meantime we had to fly other planes until we had a replacement, and we finally had the third Fox, so there were three foxes all together. On the 12th of September and at the same time we finally had a replacement for our mid-upper gunner whom we’d lost on- Well he wasn’t killed, but he just didn’t fly again after Reims and that’s were Flying Officer Ken Gibb DFC with seventy-five operations under his belt came into being. So, can we- A new F-Fox came and that was NF936, and we finished our final trips in that, but- On the 2nd of November. But Paddy the engineer had been ill on one of the trips and he still had a trip to do, and two members of the crew refused to fly anymore operations, and we seemed to think that it was a shame for Paddy to go on his last trip on his own, so I volunteered to go with him and we flew our last trip on the 4th of November, Paddy and I, and at the same time, the crew in our hut, whose captain was Flying Officer Edwards, took over our F-Fox, and we planned to have an extension on the sergeants mess license for when we came back to celebrate. Unfortunately, F-Fox didn’t come back, and the whole of the crew were killed, so we cancelled the extension and it seemed a shame really that on our last day we lost our plane, our hut mates, it was a bit distressing. In the meantime, during July, I'd been on a trip and I had arrived late at the briefing through a fault on the intercom, and I was hauled before the CO and threatened with expulsion from the aircrew and told what an unpleasant character I was, and the final words of the CO when I left the interview was, ‘From now on, you will be under my personal observation’, and I then went home on leave after the completion of our tours and when I arrived I found a telegram addressed to Pilot Officer Davies, so he must’ve forgiven me because he’d recommended the commission. From then on, we went to flying training at a place called Angle in South Wales and we were flying with four crews from 617 Squadron, and they were all- Two had expired from- And we flew for six months on this experimental work and the work was to bomb or- To train the bomb site to cope with eastern conditions and the idea was to bomb the Japanese fleet, and we finished that tour by the end of May. At which time we returned to- We were seconded to coastal command, when I returned to 101 Squadron a character there called Gundry[?] White with whom I'd also blotted my copy book, when he saw me coming back, he made sure that my existence was short and sweet, and I found myself posted to the Far East, and within a month I was at Mauripur which is just outside Karachi, in a transit camp waiting to join the Tiger Force which was the name for Bomber Commad in the Far East. Fortunately for us, before that happened, they dropped to atom bomb and then the hydrogen bomb and at that point I was posted to Dum Dum in Calcutta, and from there, from there I spent seven days on an American liberty ship and ended up in Singapore on my way to Kuala Lumpur. There was so much chaos in Singapore that- And there was no transport available, and so I ended up helping to rehabilitate prisoners to come back home, and when that happened the whole station was posted to Changi- We were at Kallang sorry, and Kallang was to be handed back to the civil authorities and we were all to go to the RAF. But within- I being the youngest of the officers there was left to- With thirty people to tidy everyone up and hand it back to the authorities. But, before that could happen, after four days the runways at Changi were declared unfit and unsafe for four-engine aircraft, and so I stayed for the rest of the war in Kallang with these thirty people and our job was to refuel all the aircraft which were coming through and in particular, we had twenty-five Japanese prisoners of war come every day and it was my job to see that all these people were done. At the, at the end of my time, I was then demobbed in June 1946. I went back to the main base in Singapore and that night there was a NAAFI show with Tommy Trinder and I thought, ‘That’ll be a fitting way to finish’, and when I got in the very first person, I saw was Gwen Lansing-Green[?] who was the daughter of our landlord back home, and I had to go twelve-thousand miles to see my next-door neighbour. You can make as much as that as you wish. We arrived home after six- We went from Colombo which then was Ceylon, Bombay, Aden, Suez, Gibraltar and Liverpool and that was the end of my service, and that was in the book, then everything finishes and it starts again fifty-two years later when I- By this time I’d lost touch with all the crew, and it was fifty-two years later when I was reading a paper and my pilot was writing a story of his accident and from that I wrote to him, we were reunited, and then started all the galivanting to- Back to bomber land. Does that fill in?
SP: That’s great Ron, I think if we just want to go back to a couple of bits you mentioned during your time during the war, you mentioned that obviously you were special operations and Keith Gosling, you said he went on a different flight to you at some time. Do you want to tell us what happened to Keith?
RD: Yes, well now that I can tell you, that I answered the pilot’s letter and then that is where we began to find out all the information about Keith Gosling, and it really goes on- It’s very long winded because it took about twenty years to find all this out. Well, the one word for it is a cover-up. No one wanted to disclose, in fact, I doubt the air force really know, that their only Canadian air force covered everything up, and when you read the stories that we found out, most of this happened because the Canadian government were more concerned with paying a widows pension to someone who wasn’t a widow, and most of the investigations are concerning that, and the fact that a plane, six men were killed, many, many facets of information passed over to the enemy, and if I tell you that the Stasi people were concerned and that’s what- Meier[?] was a member of that.
SP: So, what actually happened? Do you want to tell us what actually happened?
RD: Well, it all started with Keith Gosling’s friend who was called Sam Brookes and they both trained together and they both received their commission together and they both came to 101 Squadron. Now, on the first visit back to Lincoln after I'd met up with the pilot, the- 101 had this mad idea of having two nights for a reunion, and one night would be in Lincoln, or an RAF station on a Saturday with a dinner, and the following would be on the Sunday afternoon when we would go to the church in Ludford and the first night, or the first visit we had and the reunion was being held in Waddington, and we stayed at the Premier Inn or some such, who provided a courtesy coach to take us to Waddington and sitting next to me was Sam Brookes and of course, as you know from your father's experience, whenever two airmen get together it’s always, ‘When were you here? What crew were you with?’, and Sam Brookes case, ‘Who was your special operator?’, and I said, ‘Oh, Keith Gosling’, struggling- ‘That’s strange, we’ve just come back from France where Keith was buried’, he said, ‘And there weren’t seven graves, there were only six graves and Keith Gosling was named as the pilot’, he said, ‘very strange’. But by that time, we’d got to Waddington and we said, ‘We’ll talk about this when we get back’. Unfortunately, for us, we got carried away a bit and that night there were a changeover of chairmen and Air Vice Marshall Eric Macey was handing over to Air Commodore Jim Uprichard, and they start- One was a pianist and the other was a cellist and so you can imagine, half-past one in the morning and the sing songs are going and the drinks are flowing, and we sudden realised we’d missed our bus. So, we never saw Sam Brookes again, in fact, I never did see him because in the shadow of the bus, you don’t really recognise and nothing ever happened from that, and it was three years later before Sam Brookes met our pilot. Now, our pilot had amnesia and he couldn’t remember anything and so, he then wrote to me to tell me all about Sam Brookes and to try and carry on this conversation and from then on that’s how they approached me and not the pilot because, I wouldn’t say my memory’s good, but I can remember a lot of things that happened at the time and I had all the dates in my log book to cover them. And so, that is why I was approached at the last meeting as to what I thought of Keith because Fred, with the best will in the world could remember Keith Gosling but he could never remember that he’d flown with us as a crew member, so it was all these odd- And that is why my- Or I was asked for a second opinion if you like. So-
SP: So, Keith actually went on another operation, what actually happened on the operation when his crew was killed? What actually happened on the operation that Keith was on when his crew was killed?
RD: They flew to Homberg, and- Have to think about how much I can tell you without breaking confidentiality. They flew- And everything I tell you now is conflicted, every evidence is conflicted. When the raid was over, they should’ve come over Holland and the North Sea back to Ludford, but they actually were flying over Belgium, I think it was- I can’t remember the name of the, of the town at the moment. But the bomb aimer bailed out, and when he was interrogated back in this country, they asked him why he bailed out and he said he’d bailed out because he thought the plane was going to crash, but on further interrogation he admitted that all four engines were running and so his explanation didn’t quite fit in. Now, the plane then continued flying away from England and it actually crashed at E-V-R-E-U, Evreu, which if you look on a map is half-way from Belgium to the Alps and at that point, how a pilot could get out of a plane and leave all six members in and how it remained static, but of course, the bomb bays were already- The bomb hatch was already open from the bomb aimer leaving, so all he had to do was get out, and once he got out the plane- He obviously hadn’t put it onto automatic and so it just crashed. Now, that was the first part, and the second part was, the bomb aimer, when he was interrogated, they found he was unfit for further flying activities, and yet he’d been a person, very convivial, until he went on that trip, he was a very natural person. He went back to Canada, and this- Within three years and he disappeared mysteriously in a boating accident, and no one could ever interrogate him again and the pilot, Walter Meier, he was eventually in East Germany and in 1972, he was found in a gas filled room, asphyxiated, and the coroner deemed that there was a fault on the flu system, but again, a mysterious death. The whole thing, and without telling you anymore that’s as far as I can go but, I think it has to be mentioned.
SP: Yeah.
RD: Now, we’ve covered up to fifty-two years after being demobbed, and that started my life back at Ludford, back at Lincoln, back at Coningsby, Brize Norton, covered the whole lot really.
SP: So, what did you do after you were demobbed? What did you do after you were demobbed Ron what did-
RD: I was unemployed for months and months, you see, once you went abroad this country had a year to get itself sorted and they made sure that those who had the good jobs were not going to let anyone in. Eventually, by this time my son had been born and we had a flat in Llangollen and the only job I could get was in Crewe. So, I bought a motorbike and I travelled from Llangollen to Crewe in the worst winter of the war, so I came back from one-hundred-and-twenty in the shade to minus-twenty day after day. In fact, I think, I read somewhere once, where it was forty days of snow, and I rode this stupid motorbike all that way and then eventually I managed to get into the textile industry and managed to keep my head above water, just about. But, during this time, I haven’t told you this but, whilst I was on the observers course my eyesight went and I couldn’t see [emphasis], and they took me off the course and it was only by sheer luck I managed to find a squadron leader who would pass me fit. I wasn’t really, but he did and then half way through my tour, my ears went, and I’ve suffered with both my eyes and my ears ever since. In fact, last month I had two visits in one day at the eye clinic and I had a cold so I had to cancel them both. I still suffer all these- Health problems if you like, maybe I would’ve suffered them anyway but-
SP: So obviously you worked in the textile industry after and did you do that until you finally retired, or?
RD: Yep.
SP: Yeah?
RD: I didn’t retire till seventy-nine. Well, I couldn’t, my first wife died in 1976, and I, I married again and the second wife had vascular dementia, and then my daughter came here- Oh I had a bad fall and I was in a wheelchair and my daughter came to live with me and she was diagnosed with cancer and then that went. So-
SP: How did it make you feel coming back from the war and being unemployed and having to fight for a job really after all you’d done?
RD: Well, it is so difficult to try and explain. One day, I had an interview in- On the East coast for a job and I left Llangollen at quarter-to-eight in the morning when the first bus, and I finally got to Leeds at four o’clock in the afternoon, too late for the interview and so I rang them up and I stayed the night on a station, the Salvation Army, you could stay there for about two shillings and I caught a bus the next morning, the conductor finally showed me where this place was, it was about a miles walk and I was walking along the road and a chap comes back in the opposite direction and we both said, ‘Good Morning’, ‘Morning’, and then about another ten yards and this voice said, ‘You’re not going for the jobbers oil executive are you?’, well, yes I was, he said, ‘Well, I wouldn’t bother if I were you’, he said, ‘I’ve just taken a car back and it’s got bullet holes in’, ‘Bullet holes?’, he said, ‘Well the job is, you go round farms and you sell oil to tractors and it’s rubbish’ he said, ‘And then not only that but you have to go back the following month to try and get the money’, and this farmer had fired his shot gun at him so I turned back. Well, I- Again, I had to stay the night in Manchester and I got back three days later and the first question ‘Did you get the job?’, and I can only tell you that’s how bad this country was, there was just no work, the employment was eleven-million, that’s all and we had thirty-million. So, it gives you some idea. There were at least three million people looking for jobs and you were just one of many. But worse than that of course, the air force had its name tarnished by the Dresden affair which had been bought up by all the political correct people, and that was another reason that- That’s why for fifty-two years I didn’t want to know about the air force or the war or anything else, and it took the whole of one's capabilities to try and keep your head above water, to try and move on. It was a job to stand still, and the first two or three years I bought a house in Crewe and we were so hard up, whilst I'd been in the Far East, we bought rugs and they all went to the auction room, everything we could sell, just to try and pay your bills, and then- It is not something you’re able to communicate to people today, and so, if I don’t talk very much about it, there wasn’t very much to talk about [emphasis].
SP: I think it’s interesting because I think people are- Would be surprised that with such high regard that you’re all held with now in Bomber Command that it was so different at the end of the war and you had to find so much to get jobs.
RD: [Chuckles] Well, Dresden, I make a big thin of Dresden in my book, and I show examples of just what the Americans did ten times worse than what we did, and never any castigation at all. But then, that’s my pet hobby.
SP: And again, you know, for people listening that book ‘From Landsmen to Lancaster’ is the one that explains it in detail isn’t it, by yourself on there.
RD: Yeah.
SP: Just going back to your time with 101 Squadron, tell me about your crew, who you had, I know we’ve talked about one of them but tell me a little bit about your pilot and your- The rest of your crew and your-
RD: Yeah.
SP: Ok, so do you want to talk me through your crew Ron? Yeah?
RD: That’s myself, that’s Paddy Ore[?] the engineer, that’s Titch Taylor the wireless operator, George Williams the rear gunner, Fred James the pilot, Jim Coleman the navigator, Ken Gibb the second mid-upper and that was Roy Hall the second wireless operator-
PD: Special, special.
RD: - and I have all their letters and how they-Oh, he, he also couldn’t get a job after the war and he went back in the air force and he flew five tours of operations on Hastings which was the future of the Halifax.
SP: Yeah, that’s right. And you say a few of them from Canada? You had quite a few Canadians in your crew?
RD: George, he had a tremendous- He never married, and he died in 2009 and he worked on the early warning system in Siberia [chuckles] so none of us really- Fred became a teacher, well that was just about as much as he could do because of his amnesia and-
SP: And how did you crew up? Where did you crew up and how did you crew up?
RD: We crewed up at Wymeswold and really that’s- It’s so involved that- There were four crews who were- We considered ourselves friendly because mostly were Canadians and Australians but in Castle Donnington within two months there the Australians in our crew were burnt to death, the Canadians in the next hut they were also burnt to death. We had two plane crashes in ten nights, and when we were at Blyton, we had another plane crash. So altogether before we ever got to Ludford Magna we’d lost about twenty odd people, and I was reading somewhere that eight-and-a-half-thousand people were killed in training alone. Well, tend not to think of these things, I don’t know- With all the other things going on whether they detract from it really.
SP: So, do you- You crewed up pretty quickly then as a team?
RD: Well, what would you like me to say? Just tell-
SP: Just tell how you crewed up, yeah? Can you remember who spoke to who and-
RD: Well, that was at 28 Wymeswold, 28 OTU Wymeswold, which is just outside Loughborough. There would be about a hundred people and for three or four days we just talked, and I mentioned Walt Reif[?] as the Canadian, he in fact was [chuckles]- The more I talked, the more I bring in complication. Walt Reif[?] was a German, he was born in Germany, emigrated to America, naturalised America, they wouldn’t take him into the air force and so he went over the border to Canada, joined the Royal Canadian Air Force and ended up the same way, and his bomb aimer was also born in Germany and he was naturalised Canadian and ended up, if you like, also- We had an Argentinian, as a pilot and his name was- What as it?
PD: [Unclear]
RD: Peter?
PD: Highland, Highland [emphasis]
RD: Peter Highland, Pancho, and Chris Cockshott who was a trainee pilot with me and he was the co- He and I were flying the Cessna when we crashed and we were both kicked out and we stayed together for a long time and we met up again in Ludford Magna and he was killed on his third op, on the- In a F-Fox which we should’ve been flying. So, the more I talk about these things the more involved it gets and then I told you that on the last night of our flying we had- Flying Officer Edwards crew, well the navigator there, he came from Mauritius and his name was Tedier[?] and he was the one and only person from Mauritius who joined Bomber Command and was killed in action. So, I'd forgotten all these things. Going back to crewing up, well I crewed up with Fred first and then Fred found George Williams and Jim Coleman and a man called Eric Smith, that started our crew and Titch Taylor of course also. But Eric Smith didn’t like Fred, he found he was too authoritative (being Canadian) and so as we finished our term at Castle Donnington, Eric broke his wrist and he was given the option of having a rest and then joining us later or joining another crew, and he said, ‘Don’t take offence Ron, but I can’t stand Fred so I'm going to join a Canadian crew’, and he did, and he was killed on his first op. But- So if you go back then that was actually three crew members who didn’t make it but to try to avoid too much confusion, I haven’t mentioned too much of it, in fact I don’t think I've mentioned that in the book at all. Oh yes, I did, yes, yes.
SP: So obviously you did the crewing up, but you were also involved with D-Day?
RD: Sorry?
SP: You were involved with D-Day, were you? Around D-Day, do you want to talk a little bit about your role within D-Day operations.
RD: Well we didn’t know it was D-Day, we just were sent on a trip and we flew for seven-and-a-half hours and when we were coming back, we could see the English Channel was black with ships and we reported all this at the briefing and it was two hours later when we were in the mess when we finally found out that there had been the invasion, and from then on, we were- All leave was cancelled and for three weeks we weren’t allowed off the station. We were just standing by and it was during that time we went to Reims, and when we crash landed at Thorney Island normally a plane would come and take you back, but because all the planes were on stand-by we had to come back by train, and that was another story. We were in London as the V-1 bombs were dropping because we- It took us two hours to get from Havant to Waterloo, and then- I can’t remember the reason, but we couldn’t get a direct trip to Kings Cross so we went part on the underground and watched all the people getting their beds out and then we got the last train from Kings Cross and that was with difficulty, the whole of London was trying to get out. We got into, where was it? We got into Lincoln, we finally got transport back to Ludford, got back into Ludford at half-past-ten, which is exactly forty-eight hours after we’d taken off, and by lunch time next day, we found our names on the board for an op that night, but then it was cancelled and I went over- I used to keep my pilot training up by going on the link trainer, and I went over to the squadron where the flight were to do this and I was suddenly told I was to fly with an air test, with a pilot and so we flew over Liverpool, checked all the Gee equipment and whatever, and we got back to Ludford at seventeen-fifty, I checked my watch, seventeen-fifty and because it was a scratch crew I was flying as the joint navigator and engineer, and I said to the pilot when we got back, ‘If you fly over the control tower I'll fire off a [unclear] cartridge and they’ll change the runway because it’s a short runway’, ‘Nonsense, nonsense’ he said, ‘We’ll go in’. So, he landed, and he hit the runway bounced thirty feet, shot across the perimeter track in between- Across the main road and we ended up in a haystack, and all the equipment we’d been testing was scanners underneath the aircraft, they were all smashed. He still didn’t speak and we were walking back and this boy came up and said, he was about eighteen I suppose, pimply faced youth and he said, ‘My bicycle was in that hut that you’ve crashed’, and the pilot looked, ‘Go and thank Christ you weren’t on it’, and that was all he said, and for that we were both ordered to write an essay and appear before a court as to our actions on why this accident had happened, and after three days it was all cancelled. I was sent on leave and when I got back this pilot had gone so [chuckles] it’s only when you sit down and work it all out and you realise why I didn’t want to think about it for fifty-two years.
SP: Yeah, and just going back to D-Day, you said you flew, what was your role on D-Day? What was 101 Squadron doing? What was the role?
RD: We weren’t bombing, we were flying with- The special operator was jamming the equipment over the fighter stations so that they couldn’t get the information to- Of what was happening.
SP: That’s great, and then you talked about Reims and you said you had to land- You had to crash land on the way back, do you want to tell me a little bit about the trip to Reims?
RD: Well, we had two engines shot out so we landed with- We landed with just two engines and we did a ground loop because all the port undercarriage was ripped away and, and in my book, I mention that the pilot in his résumé of what happened that night, and he said that we were attacked by three different fighters and we ended up at zero feet flying over the tree tops and that’s how we were saved really, and he heard all the canon fire crashing into the front of the plane and thought I would be a bloody pulp, that was his expression. Fortunately that wasn’t the case. But the whole of the front of the plane where I was, it was almost unrecognisable, and the plane never flew again, it was written off. That was just one, we had about four similar episodes, but that was the first one and the first one is always the worst one, after that you become a bit blasé about it all. But the other thing about many of it was really the weather, we were sent in weather that was really never fit to fly, but needs must. They had to keep the pressure up. It’s easy to understand now, it wasn’t quite so easy then
SP: And then on your crash landing, you had a problem with where you wanted to land wasn’t it? Was there some other planes?
RD: Well, it saved our lives, had we landed on the runway and done that we would probably of done the- Thorney Island has a sea wall and that was where Tony Benn made his mistake, he said his brother crashed into a sea wall, so when I told him Thorney Island, he said, ‘No, you’re wrong’, and I said, ‘Well, you can’t be right on both. If he crashed on Tangmere, Tangmere doesn’t have a sea wall, so he couldn’t of crashed into it, it had to be there’, and he also said that his brother was taken to Chichester hospital, well Chichester’s right next to Thorney Island, so that stood me in good stead.
SP: So you were coming in- You were wanting to land at Thorney Island but two Mosquitos were in front-
RD: They said, ‘You can’t land here’.
SP: Right.
RD: And then the pilot, well, he had no option. We didn’t- We had a fuel leak, we couldn't climb any further and, in any case, there was the- These V-1’s were taking off, they started on the 16th of June and the incident I'm telling you about was the 22nd, so I think I mention in the book, at seven-thirty in the morning when we were starting for breakfast and it was the first of seven raids of the day. So not only did we crash land at Thorney Island but we found ourselves in the centre of the first attacks of these things which was a-
SP: So, from what you were saying to me earlier, the- They’d said you couldn’t land on the runway because the Mosquito was in problem so you landed on the grass but the Mosquito actually crashed.
RD: We landed on the grass, which is level. Thorney Island was a coastal command station and it was quite vast, it was pre-war when space was- Cost nothing. So, it- That helped to save- The fact that we were landing on grass instead of concrete made a big difference.
SP: And the Mosquito that crashed was Tony Benn’s brother?
RD: Yes
SP: Right, so yeah, so that’s the link into the Tony Benn story, it was his brother.
RD: Did Tony Benn have a, a navigator with him?
PD: Yes.
RD: Yeah so-
PD: I think all the Aussies had navigators.
SP: Yeah so they crashed on-
RD: Tony Benn and his navigator were killed.
SP: Tony Benn’s brother, yeah and his navigator.
RD: What they had-
PD: Michael Ben [unclear]
RD: -was a malfunctioning altimeter.
SP: Right.
RD: And he didn’t know his height and so they sent another Mosquito up to bring him in and we listened to all that, that was the part which perhaps I didn’t emphasise. We listened to the whole caboodle and after they crashed, we still had to get down if you like, it doesn’t help.
SP: No, so that was Michael Benn who crashed with his navigator and then you listened to that ok, yeah. Is there anything else, Ron, that stands out that you want to make sure you cover?
RD: Have I missed anything Pete?
SP: Ok Ron, well thank you very much for sharing all of those storis with us today, it’s been a privilege-
RD: Well, thank you for coming.
SP: - to meet you, so thank you on behalf of International Bomber Command.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ronald Davies
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ADaviesRS180201, PDaviesRS1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:57:47 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
Singapore
United States
England--Cumbria
England--Lincolnshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Warwickshire
Description
An account of the resource
In spring 1940, Ronald Davies joined the RAF to train as a pilot. Following initial training, he was posted to America but was dismissed after crashing a Cessna. Following Pearl Harbour, he trained as a navigator in Port Albert, Canada, but upon returning to England he completed a bomb aimer course at RAF Millom. Davies formed a crew at RAF Wymeswold and trained on Wellingtons and Hallifaxes, before converting to Lancasters at RAF Hemswell. He joined 101 Squadron and completed thirty-one operations between May and November 1944. He describes completing operations during D-Day, and crash-landing at RAF Thorney Island when returning from an operation over Reims, then travelling back to RAF Ludford Magna by train as V-1 bombs dropped over London. In May 1945, he was posted to Singapore where he remained until he was demobilised in June 1946.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
10 OTU
101 Squadron
28 OTU
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Ansty
RAF Blyton
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Thorney Island
RAF Wymeswold
Stearman
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/828/10814/PFreemanR1801.2.jpg
bee4e64fb2e686498699c522ead3d620
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/828/10814/AFreemanR180312.1.mp3
dfcfd17e510a1bd603ffdddd8c3cb840
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Freeman, Ralph
R Freeman
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Ralph Reginald Freeman (1923 - 2019, 1523700 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He trained as a pilot and later flew as a flight engineer.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Susan Abbott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Freeman, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Let’s try that again. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Ralph Freeman at his home on the 12th of March 2018. So, if I just put that there.
RF: Yeah.
DK: So, first of all then, if I was to- What were you doing immediately before the war?
RF: Before the war?
DK: Before the war.
RF: I was working for the BBC on the transmitters, and I was away from home because I was- I had to go into [unclear] which is too far to go to travel, and I was held back for about six months because it was in a so-called reserved occupation, and I often wonder what would have happened if I'd have got in when I volunteered. But as I say they held me back for about six months.
DK: So, can you remember which year this would of been?
RF: Yes, it, it was 19-
DK: Do you want to have a look at that?
RF: I’ve got my [paper rustles] 1942.
DK: 1942. So, what made you then, want to join the air force? Was there any particular reason?
RF: Well, I was- I hadn’t done any flying but I was in the ATC, very keen to fly, and as a- As I was in the ATC for some time and then, I volunteered for air crew. But as I say I was held back about six months before they let me go.
DK: So, what did you want to do as air crew then, were you hoping to be a pilot?
RF: I wanted to be a pilot [laughs] which I did achieve actually.
DK: Right, so can you remember going to the recruitment office?
RF: Yes, I can, I’ve got all the dates here.
DK: Oh yeah, if you want to go through those?
RF: All those, yes. I went to London ACRC on the 1st of March 1943, and I was there just over a fortnight. Then I went to Brighton, and I was in Brighton about three weeks.
DK: What were you doing in Brighton?
RF: Square bashing mostly [chuckles].
DK: What did you think of the square bashing then? Was that-
RF: I didn’t mind it, because we used to do what they called a continuity drill, where you count in numbers all the time and- Making various rules, I thought that was quite good. But, most- Funny really because there’s always somebody who took their own direction [chuckles] but, we finished up quite well on that sort of thing. So that’s what we were doing mainly in Brighton. But then, we were billeted in The Grand Hotel, which was bombed.
DK: Ah ok, yes, yes, remember that.
RF: Yeah, I can remember that very plainly, and then from there I was right to ITW at Newquay and I was there for just over three months.
DK: So, what were you doing there? Can you remember what you were doing at Newquay?
RF: Oh, at Newquay, ITW, Initial Training Wing, mostly classroom lessons. Theory of flight and controls and all that sort of thing.
DK: So, at this point you were still hoping to be a pilot then?
RF: Oh yes, oh yes, I was still hoping to be a pilot, and we finished that and from there I went to Cambridge, just for a fortnight where we had some training on Tiger Moths.
DK: Right.
RF: I wasn’t there very long.
DK: So, would that of been the first time you flew then?
RF: Yes, on the Tiger Moths, yeah.
DK: And what did you think of that then?
RF: I thought it was marvellous [chuckles] yeah.
DK: So, you only sat in the back as a passenger then?
RF: Yes, I didn’t solo then until much later on when I was on a sort of, in-between thing. Of course, I got to solo on a Tiger Moth then, yeah, and then from there- Try to see what I'm doing. Yes, went to Heaton Park as a holding- That was a holding centre for- Before we went abroad for training. I was there about three of four weeks, and then we went to Canada, in October ‘43.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
RF: Oh yes, yeah. It was a troop ship, it was the Mauretania, we went on the Mauretania and came back on the Queen Elizabeth I.
DK: Oh right.
RF: And, it was unescorted because the speed and the zig-zag [unclear] them, there was no startling[?] of runts[?] on that.
DK: So, was there many on board the Mauretania?
RF: Yes, it was quite a lot.
DK: What were conditions like on the ship then?
RF: Not too bad, not too bad. I think I had a lower bunk. I think there was about four bunks and I had a lower one but, the main thing I remember was the fact that you could go and buy sweets and things because they were all rationed at home and we thought that was- You could get chocolate and- Thought marvellous [chuckles] and- So it was quite a pleasant trip that really, but we didn’t do very much in the way of any lessons or training or anything, it was just the journey. Then, we got to- Went to Moncton which was a holding centre in New Brunswick, and from there I went to Manitoba for my EFTS flying, that was the first flying course I was put on, and at the end- That was about three or four months and eventually went to a service flying training school in Manitoba, service, was there about seven months.
DK: And this would’ve all been practical flying experience then?
RF: That’s right, yes, yes, a lot of flying and I got my wings then, at the end of that course.
DK: Can you remember what it was like then, when you first went solo?
RF: Yes, I can, I can. We were doing circuits and bumps and eventually the instructor- We pulled up outside the flight control and he jumped out and said, ‘Right, go and do one by yourself,’ and I just- I’d done plenty of it and I said- I thought it was marvellous by myself and I did these circuits and bumps no bother [chuckles]. So that was- I’ve got a record of it in here.
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft you were flying?
RF: Yes, it was a Cornell.
DK: Right, yep.
RF: [Paper rustles] My first solo was on the 16th of November 1943, yeah, and we finished that course and then I was- Went to service flying training on Ansons because they- At the end of the EFTS they graded you as to either single engine or multi-engine, and I wanted to get on single engine but wasn’t lucky.
DK: Did you see yourself as a fighter pilot then?
RF: Yeah [laughs] everybody does.
DK: So, when they said multi-engine, was that a bit of a disappointment to you? Or you just-
RF: Not really, not really a disappointment, I didn’t fret over it at all, and then we went to- [unclear], yep. EFTS, flying Ansons, yes, and I came back to this country, I was abroad about just over a year, about thirteen months.
DK: So, what was Canada like then because obviously there was the blackouts and rationing in England, what was it like when you got to Canada?
RF: Oh, marvellous, absolutely marvellous. The people were really- Well, they’d do anything for you. We- If we had a free weekend, or anything like that, they would give us an address to go to and a private house and you’d be looked after and fed and shown around, and they were most hospitable people, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it was really pleasant.
DK: Was there much to do in your off times there, did you go into the towns and?
RF: Yes, yes, we used to get forty-eight hour passes and that sort of thing, and as I say, we’d be given an address or a couple of addresses to call at and they’d put you up and feed you.
DK: What about the weather though, was it cold?
RF: It was cold, but it was a sort of a dry cold, and we had to have ear protectors because of cold. But it was- As I say, it was dry, so I coped with that alright.
DK: So, you’ve come back then, on the Queen-
RF: On the Queen Elizabeth I, yes, that, that was about six days I think, and-
DK: Can you remember where you docked when you got back?
RF: Yes, when we left, we left Greenock in Scotland.
DK: Right.
RF: And when we came back, I think it was Liverpool. I'm pretty sure it was yeah, and, where are we? Yes, went to Harrogate, to Harrogate at a sort of a holding centre for a couple of weeks, and then I went to Brough in Yorkshire and that’s where they had the Tiger Moths, we had a mess around with those for a bit.
Dk: So, you were flying on the Tiger Moths there, were you?
RF: Yeah, just before- We got our wings in Canada you see.
DK: Yeah.
RF: But I got back and hoping to get onto a squadron, but instead of that they sent me to St Athan in Wales on a flight engineers’ course.
DK: Oh right, so did- Was there a reason why you didn’t end up as a pilot rather, as a flight engineer?
RF: Well, they said that there was a glut of pilots at that time
DK: There was too many?
RF: Too many of them, and we were sent on this- Oh we had a choice, you could either go as glider pilots or we could go to St Athan and train as flight engineers, which is what I did.
DK: Presumably if it was the gliders, it meant you’d be transferred to the army?
RF: Yes, more or less, yes.
DK: Yes, so you wouldn’t of- You didn’t want that then?
RF: I didn’t, I didn’t fancy that, no. Some of our flight went and I never heard what happened to them, but there we are.
DK: So, you got to St Athan then-
RF: Got to St Athan and it was about a three-month course.
DK: And what were you doing there then?
RF: We were training to be flight engineers on Lancasters, and from there were went to conversion units, to be crewed up.
DK: Right, so can you remember which conversion unit you were at?
RF: Yes. Bottesford.
DK: Bottesford.
RF: Nottinghamshire, yeah.
DK: So that’s where would’ve first met your crew then?
RF: That’s right, yes. Apparently, I was crewed up twice, and I can’t quite remember the reason. So, I was there longer than usual.
DK: So, what was the crewing up process, how did you meet your crew?
RF: Well, as far as I remember, it was meeting in a large hall with various flying types you know, like pilots, bomb aimers, and navigators, wireless operators and gunners we, we just sort of got round talking to each other and if we liked him, what they looked like and if they liked us, we said, ‘Well, what about crewing up together,’ you know, so it was quite a short process really.
DK: So, it’s quite hap-hazard then?
RF: Hap-hazard, yeah.
DK: No formality to it?
RF: No, no.
DK: Which is quite unusual for the military, did you think that worked well?
RF: Well, it- Yes, I was quite happy with my crew yes, and I think- Yes, you all fitted together quite well.
DK: And can you remember the name of your pilot then?
RF: Yes, Reynolds- He finished us as a flight lieutenant, but he was a flying officer when I first got to know him.
DK: So, you all got on very well together then as a crew?
RF: Mm-hm.
DK: So, is that when you're training on the Lancasters started then?
RF: That’s right, yes.
DK: So that would’ve been your first time on the Lancasters?
RF: Yes.
DK: So what did you thing of the Lancaster as an aircraft?
RF: Very good, very good, we didn’t have any trouble with it at all.
DK: No vices?
RF: No, not really, no.
DK: So, could you just say a little bit about what the role of a flight engineer was, just for somebody who doesn’t-
RF: Yes, well, mainly to do with the fuel and the various tanks, booster pumps, that sort of thing, making sure that we changed over at the right times, because we used different fuel tanks on the Lancaster, about four or five I think, and looking after hydraulics, that sort of thing, checking. But, the main, main job I think was looking after the fuel, and checking the pumps and-
DK: So, where abouts were you positioned in the aircraft?
RF: On the right-hand side, next to the pilot.
DK: Right.
RF: And had a blank row, which was on my right for the fuel. We used to keep checks on the fuel and if the tanks, the tank you were using was getting low, you used to start the booster pumps on the other, next tank and swap over.
DK: Did you help with the take off at all, or was that down to the pilot?
RF: Yes, in as much as the throttle, the throttles and looked after the undercarriage and that sort of thing
DK: Right.
RF: And then, [unclear]. Then, controlling the throttles all the time, synchronising the engines, and maintaining the shooting speed or climbing, whatever was needed.
DK: So, so you had to work very closely with the pilot?
RF: Oh yes, very closely.
DK: Did you have to kind of second guess once you got to know each other?
RF: Oh yes, yes, we were very- Quite close, yeah, got on very well with each other.
DK: So after the heavy conversion unit then, you’re now fully trained crew-
RF: That’s right.
DK: Where did you go then?
RF: We went to 101 Squadron, although it was at Bottesford, that’s right. Yes, went to 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna, they called it Mudford Lagna because it was all muddy.
DK: So I've heard [chuckles].
RF: And we were there for about three months or so and then they moved to Binbrook which was more or less a permanent base which was much better.
DK: With the same squadron?
RF: With the same squadron, yes, and I went there on the 10th of August ‘45. I didn’t actually do any service- Any operational flying because I was bit too late coming in you see. By the time I was- Got onto the squadron it was the 6th of July 1945, just after the end of the war.
DK: Right.
RF: So, I was very lucky I suppose in that respect.
DK: So, your crew never did any operations then?
RF: No, no.
DK: What was Ludford Magna like then, ‘cause it’s in the middle of nowhere isn’t it?
RF: More or less, yeah. Yes, it was, it was muddy there’s no doubt about it [chuckles].
DK: Did that affect flying at all as you landed?
RF: Not- No, not really, no, it- I, I had purchased a motorcycle in those days and I stored it in a farmer’s barn nearby and this allowed me to get home if we had any weekends and that sort of thing.
DK: So, did you and your crew socialise together then?
RF: We did yes, quite a bit.
DK: So what did you used to do?
RF: Go down the pub and drink [laughs]. The skipper, he had a motorbike at that time before I got mine, and believe it or not, it will take seven people [chuckles] on the way back [emphasis] from the pub [laughs].
DK: Probably wouldn’t want to do that now?
Other: No [laughs].
RF: Yes.
DK: Was there anything- Were you ever told anything about 101 Squadron, because they were doing some special duties there? Were you ever-
RF: Yes, we- Well as I say, by the time we got there, the war had finished. We did a lot of cross-country flights and we did trips to Italy and fetch back some Middle East people who had been in the army there.
DK: Yeah, Operation Dodge.
RF: Is that what they called it?
DK: Yeah.
RF: Yeah, I don’t-
DK: 101 Squadron though, they had some special equipment on-
RF: They did, yes that’s right.
DK: Did you ever see any of that at all, or was it quite sort of secret?
RF: Well, I, I did yes but it was mainly operated by the wireless operator so I didn’t have much to do with it so I didn’t know very much about it really.
DK: So, you weren’t really told then about the specialty [unclear]
RF: No, as I say, the war was over and, I suppose there wasn’t any need for us to know about it.
DK: So, you’ve done the operation- Not the operation, you’ve done the flights to Italy to pick-
RF: Yes, we did, quite a few flights to Italy and one to Berlin.
DK: Oh right.
RF: And brought back- I think we used to fetch back about nineteen soldiers at a time, sitting on the floor.
DK: What sort of condition were they in, presumably they hadn’t been home for a few years?
RF: Oh, they were over the moon, you know, they didn’t care about where they sat, and they all wanted to see the white cliffs, so we let them come up-
DK: Up to the cockpit?
RF: Yeah.
DK: You say you did one trip to Berlin-
RF: One trip to Berlin.
DK: You actually landed in Berlin then?
RF: Yes.
DK: Did you get a chance to look round Berlin at all?
RF: Yes, we did, yes. We were there a day or a couple of days, and I went to Berlin and saw the wall, and-
DK: Presumably it was all ruined, the city then?
RF: I don’t actually remember seeing much of ruins at all. It looked to be a thriving city and, I didn’t see much in the way of damage at all.
DK: So, was there suggestions then that you might be going out to the Far East?
RF: Yes, there was, yes but the atomic bomb kettled all that you see.
DK: Right was that kind of a blessing in disguise then?
RF: Well, depends what side you’re on doesn’t it? [chuckles]
DK: So, had you had any training to go out in the Far East at all?
RF: No, we hadn’t had any, any training but I’m sure that was where we would’ve finished up, if it hadn’t been for that, and I-
DK: So, you finished the war at Binbrook then?
RF: That’s right, yes, and after that they sent me to a maintenance unit at Stoke Heath, 24 MU, and put me in charge of a gang of about five AC2’s and our job was to break up aircraft. The aircraft was supplied in very large pieces, and we- It was our job to get them broken down so they would fit on garbage trucks to be taken for scrap, which was- I didn’t like that job at all.
DK: Do you know what sort of aircrafts were being scrapped?
RF: They were American aircraft, that’s about all I can tell you.
Other: That’s alright then.
RF: But what sort of aircraft they were I don’t know, and I finished my service there and I came out on the 6th of December 1946.
DK: So, what was your career post war then?
RF: Oh, as I say, I was working for the BBC before I went in, on transmitters, and when I came back, I applied again for my job which I got, but they sent my onto a small transmitter in Wrexham, a local transmitter just for the area, in a couple of sheds it was [chuckles] and I didn’t enjoy that very much, and I wanted to get back home into the North East, but I couldn’t get back to the North East but they transferred me to a shortwave station in Skelton in Cumbria and that’s the nearest I got to home.
DK: So, this is still with the BBC then is it?
RF: Still with the BBC yes, but I could see no chance of getting back home so I chucked that job, and I went into radio servicing with a local TV, radio and TV shop.
DK: So maybe they should’ve had you as a wireless operator then?
RF: Well, that’s what I was frightened of [chuckles].
DK: Oh, you didn’t want to do that? So, all these years later, how do you look back on your time in the RAF?
RF: I, I look back on it as a very good time, I thoroughly enjoyed it, mainly because of the flying I suppose.
DK: And did you stay in touch with your crew at all?
RF: Pardon?
DK: Did you stay in touch with-
RF: I stayed in touch with the skipper, yeah, Bob Reynolds.
DK: Bob, Bob Reynolds?
RF: Mm, until about a year or so ago and then we- I don’t know what happened but we just sort of let it tail off, so I don’t really know if he’s still alive or what.
DK: Ok, well that’s, that’s marvellous, I think we better have a break there, but I think if you’re happy with that I’ll turn the recorder off
RF: Oh good.
DK: But, thanks very much for that.
RF: At- I remember telling- Came in and pulled up over the cliffs, and shot straight up passed this, while we were doing-
DK: Oh right, so you were parading on a promenade?
RF: In front, yes on the prom, on the road in front of The Grand Hotel, and he was flying so low that he had to climb very steeply to get some altitude, so he wasn’t able to fire us or anything because guns were pointing the wrong way you see[chuckles].
DK: So, it was German Focke-Wulf?
RF: It was a, yeah, 190.
DK: Right, so how did- What did- Did you all scatter or were you all-
RF: Well, it was over so quicky, we didn’t do anything [chuckles]. Because the [unclear] down Binbrook and we went and they had the FIDO petrol things.
DK: At Woodbridge?
RF: Yes.
DK: What was it like [unclear] at Woodbridge with the FIDO?
RF: They had petrol pipes each side of the runway which they lighted, and it cleared the fog and when you came in for the landing, you felt the lifts straight away from the heat from the petrol.
DK: Oh right, was that quite frightening, cause you’re landing in flames in effect?
RF: Yeah, yes, bit dodgy.
DK: Bit dodgy.
RF: [Laughs]
DK: So you were actually still flying Lancasters into 1946 then?
RF: Yes.
DK: And it’s got here some SABS bombing, S-A-B-S?
RF: Oh yes, that was-
DK: Can you recall what SABS bombing was?
RF: Oh, S-A-B-S, um.
DK: I think it was a specific type of bomb site wasn’t it?
RF: I’m not sure, I can’t really remember. I know it was a special range we flew to, to drop these bombs but they were only little things. I forget what the S-A-B-S stands for [unclear] that’s right.
DK: Right, the bombing range?
RF: Yeah [pause] 1946.
DK: So, the last flight was, April the 7th 1946?
RF: Yes.
DK: Ok then, we’ll put that-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph Freeman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFreemanR180312, PFreemanR1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:33:05 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Wales--Glamorgan
Manitoba
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Freeman volunteered for the RAF in 1942. He began initial training in March 1943 and was posted to Manitoba in October, where he qualified as a pilot after training on Cornells and Ansons. Upon returning to Great Britain, Freeman was remustered and completed flight engineer training on Lancasters at RAF St Athan, before forming a crew at RAF Bottesford. The crew joined 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna on the 6th July 1945, but moved to RAF Binbrook in August, where they undertook flights to Italy under Operation Dodge. For his final posting, he completed maintenance at RAF Stoke Heath and left the RAF in December 1946.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1945
1946
101 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Cornell
FIDO
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bottesford
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/874/11114/PHollierM1701.2.jpg
2d2bff42122046751c24c3477c3ffe25
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/874/11114/AHollierM171016.1.mp3
1cffc294b38a22c75f045c3808219b63
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hollier, Marian
M Hollier
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Marian Hollier (b. 1926, Royal Air Force). She served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Wickenby and RAf Ludford Magna.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hollier, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right, I think we’re ok. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs. Hollier on the 16th of October 2017. I’ll just put that down there and if I keep looking down, I’m just making sure it’s working. Yeah, we’re ok. Could I just ask you then what were you doing immediately before the war?
MH: I was in, it’s another funny thing, I was in the accounts department of the George Wimpey company who built most of the aerodromes, so of course, I knew everything about aerodromes all over the place but I did belong to the Women’s Junior Air Corps and in there I learnt Morse. And my father was a telegraphist in the First World War, so I suppose the radio bit hereditary, so I decided that I was about coming seventeen and a half I will join the RAF
DK: Did, was Morse something that came easy to you?
MH: Yes, so I, that’s what I joined the RAF, which we were sent to Wilmslow in Cheshire for the six weeks square bashing and injections and what have you and then went to Blackpool for three months on a radio course doing the Morse and then after three months we were sent to Compton Bassett in Wiltshire to finish the course. And from there I went to, oh dear, my mind’s gone
US: Ludford?
MH: Where did I go to first?
US: Ludford
MH: Ludford,
DK: Ludford Magna
MH: Ludford, sorry about that [laughs]
DK: [unclear]
MH: My mind’s gone.
DK: That’s right, we’re [unclear]
MH: But I wasn’t there at Ludford Magna all that long but one did have a scare there one night, I was busy taking a Morse message and my colleagues just dived underneath the benches there oh my god but I had to keep on doing the Morse and so finished and I said, [unclear] what’s wrong with you lot? The Germans had followed our aircraft in and strafed our headquarters.
DK: Oh, right
MH: So that was a bit of a scare
DK: So Ludford Magna then, whereabouts were you [unclear], were you in the control tower there or?
MH: No, no
DK: Right
MH: We had our headquarters in the main building
DK: Ah! Alright, ok. So, what would’ve been your role there? You are sitting there and you’re receiving messages or you’re transmitting them?
MH: Yes, receiving message for aircraft coming in and yes, and they strafed the headquarters, so that was scary and then I suppose I must have been there for about six months or so and I was transferred to Wickenby because Morse was coming to an end then so that wasn’t necessary so they put me into the wireless section, the radio section and that was doing the daily inspections on the Lancasters and that’s where I met my husband and there again we had a scare because the Germans who liked to come in after our aircraft and start bombing but this particular day some chaps said to my husband would you like to change shifts with me? So he said yes, I don’t mind because they used to have to go out, when the aircraft were coming in and going out they used to have a radar van that used to go round the airfield, so this chap said, oh, thanks, anyway the same thing happened, the Germans came in our aircraft and the bomb dump went up and this poor chap was killed, he had changed with Eric for this to go out somewhere, so that was scary.
DK: If I can just take you back to Ludford Magna, did you know anything about the squadron there, 101 Squadron?
MH: Yes
DK: Because they were special squadron, weren’t they, with radio countermeasures?
MH: Yes I don’t think I knew a lot about Ludford Magna
DK: No. They didn’t mention anything about what the squadron was doing
MH: No, no
DK: No. Ok, so, you’ve gone on to Wickenby then and you said that Morse wasn’t being used so much. You’re now transmitting by radio, is that what’s happened? You, at Wickenby
MH: Yes
DK: You are using radio now instead of Morse
MH: No, we’d be doing the daily inspections on the aircraft
DK: Ah, right, ok, right. So what would that involve then?
MH: Go onto the aircraft and testing the headphones and all the radio equipment, was it, 1154, 1155, I think they were [laughs] and
DK: So
MH: But of course, I wasn’t trained to do that so I only did menial jobs on the aircraft
DK: And that would be after the raid
MH: Yes
DK: Would these be the following morning, so you’d go out to the aircraft and then
MH: Yes, and do an inspection on them before they went off again, but I mean, they used to come in and go out and sometimes there was no chance that you could do an inspection on them
DK: And then so, what did the inspection sort of involve then? Did you take the radios out or are you inspecting?
MH: Yeah, just to see if they were working alright
DK: Yeah
MH: That sort of thing
DK: Yeah. And how long were you at Wickenby for then?
MH: From forty, I did write it down somewhere, can’t remember what I’ve done with it,
DK: [unclear]
MH: Don’t think that’s in there, I was there from about March ’44 until about September ’45 and then I got sent to Sturgate on 50 and 61 Squadron and that was just in looking after headsets and that sort of thing, nobody was interested in doing anything at the end of the war [laughs] and then, have you ever heard of Ralph Reader?
DK: I haven’t, no, no
MH: Well, he did gang shows for the forces and then at the end of the war he decided he would do a gang show involving all the people who were involved in the war, all the services, the fire people, the police, everything and it was going to be held in Royal Albert Hall and they were asking for people who lived near London if they would like to come and do it and so that we could work in the week and at weekends we could go home and that’s what happened with many because I lived in Middlesex
DK: Right
MH: So, and then we were based at Epping during the week and that went on for about three weeks so that was something interesting after the war and a lot of people don’t remember
DK: No
MH: Because if you weren’t involved you wouldn’t remember. And then I got sent to RAF [unclear] at Eastcote in Middlesex which was near my home, so we got billeted out and a friend of mine that I was at Wickenby with, she got sent to Eastcote and we were allowed to go home to my mother and father at the week, every week and they, we got billeted there
DK: Yeah. So how long were you in the Air Force for altogether?
MH: From beginning of February 1944 until November 1946, because I got married 194, September 1946, so I had to come out anyway
DK: You had to come out with, if you got married, did you?
MH: But I did enjoy my life in the RAF
DK: Just going back a little bit, you mentioned a bit earlier about the ground crew, did you see much of what the groundcrew did on, at Wickenby?
MH: No, not really, because you just stayed in your own section.
DK: Ah, right
MH: But, one thing is when I was at Wickenby, somebody came up and said to me, you’ve got to see one of the officers, so I said, what for? No, I can’t tell you, she says, you’ve gotta come with me, so I got to this office and said, [unclear] the officer, and he says, I understand your name is Taunt, T-A-U-N-T, so I said, yes, that’s right, it turned out he was a long distant cousin of mine. No, I didn’t know him, I didn’t know him at all and they owned the red bus company in Birmingham and his wife bred Bedlington terriers [laughs], that was funny. But a lot didn’t happen to me, not [unclear] exciting, did some exciting things [laughs]
DK: So what did it feel like then when you used to see the aircraft going off on the raids? How did that?
MH: Well, we all, if we were on duty we would be out there watching everything,
DK: You were, yes
MH: Yes, yes
DK: So can you recall what actually happened then as you watched the aircraft take off?
MH: No, not really, just hoping they would all come back.
DK: Did you use to wave to them?
MH: Yes, yes, yes, but when we went on this trip to Canberra, I got talking to two gentlemen there and they were looking at this aircraft so I said, you are looking very lovingly at that aircraft, yes, he said, we were on this squadron during the war, I said, oh yes, were you? Whereabouts? Oh, you wouldn’t know whereabouts, so I said, well, try me, so he said, well, we were in a place called Lincolnshire, I said, oh yes, and whereabouts in Lincolnshire? Oh, he says, that’s no good, we were only in a village, so I said, well, tell me the name of the village then, he said, Wickenby. And he was there in ’45 when I was there
DK: Yeah, And they were Australians, were they?
MH: They were Australians, yes
DK: Oh, right
MH: And he wrote a book of poems, his name is Jeff Magee and he wrote a book of poems and he sent us a book of poems and every year when we used to go back to Australia we used to meet up with him but he’s gone now
DK: Do you, can you recall what type of aircrew he was? Was he a pilot or?
MH: Oh, he was a pilot
DK: He was a pilot, yeah
MH: Yes, yes and his friend was a gunner
DK: Right
MH: And they both survived but it was amazing to go twelve thousand miles
DK: And bump into
MH: And to meet up with these two people
DK: You didn’t remember each other from Wickenby then?
MH: Sorry?
DK: You didn’t remember each other from Wickenby?
MH: Oh no, no, no, but it was funny that all this business of this chat, chat, chat to think that we were at Wickenby at the same time during the war or after the war I should say
DK: So were you actually with 626 Squadron or
MH: With 626 and 12
DK: And 12, alright, ok
MH: Yes, yes, we did both squadrons,
DK: Right
MH: The radio school did both then
DK: So the radio school there wasn’t allocated to one or either of the squadrons
MH: No
DK: You just did both squadrons on the base, yeah
MH: Both, yes
DK: So what was it like living on the base there, did you have much of a social life?
US: [unclear]
MH: I didn’t
US: I think you did, [unclear] the story you told me, I think you did
MH: [laughs] we
DK: [unclear]
MH: No, one thing that we did have was the Americans, they were, they [unclear] Scunthorpe
DK: Right
MH: And they used to send a truck down to take the WAAFs for dances
DK: Right
MH: But I didn’t go on one of them, no, I didn’t like Americans [laughs], my son-in-law is American
DK: Oh right
MH: No, they were up to no good [laughs]
DK: So did you manage to, apart from the Americans, did you manage to get off the base at all? Did you go to the pubs?
MH: Oh yes, I took my bicycle with me all over the place and it’s amazing now to think that from Wickenby or Ludford Magna to Louth was, is a long way but we used to cycle and then, when we had time off, when I was at Compton Basset, I lived, my grandmother lived in Berkshire, which is not all that far from Compton Bassett, with my mother’s home is round there, so I used to skive off and one day I did skive off and I left my bed, cause we used to have to make our bed everyday but this day I left the bed and put that bolster in the bed and skived off overnight and I got caught [laughs] and spent some days peeling potatoes in the canteen [laughs]
DK: So how, when you are on the base then and the aircraft have all gone off on their operations, did you wait for them to come back?
MH: Well, only if we are on duty because at Wickenby the WAAF section was on one side of the airfield
DK: Right
MH: So unless we were on duty, no
DK: So, the WAAF section then was quite someway
MH: Yes
DK: From the rest of the base?
MH: Yes
DK: Right
MH: Yes, cause when we see it now, you know the road that we come in, that right-hand side was where all the WAAF was
DK: Alright. That’s at Wickenby is that as you got to the control tower
MH: Yes
DK: So, you were on the right on the road there
MH: Yes, yesh
DK: Right. So how, when you did see them come back how did you feel about them as they all came back damaged aircraft and things?
MH: A bit tearful you’ve, because they, in the section we had a list of the aircraft that were going out and coming back and some of them didn’t come back, didn’t know what happened to them, dreadful. Their choice, flying
DK: So, how did you feel once it was all over then and the war came to an end?
MH: Elated, glad it was over. We, my husband and I, when he was my husband then, we skived off, got a train to Grantham, and cleared off home and came back a week later but we didn’t get any jankers for that [laughs]
DK: So there was a bit of a celebration then, was it, for the end of the war?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: Yeah. And how do you look back on your time now [unclear]?
MH: I loved it, yes, I loved being in the Air Force,
DK: And was that your main role then, just the radios?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And can you still do the Morse now, if you [unclear]?
MH: I could do it, that’s where my Morse key that I had when I was at Ludford Magna is there
DK: Oh right, right
MH: And they hadn’t got one
DK: And it’s on display now
MH: It’s on display, yes, yes
DK: And you say you received messages then you would
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And what sort of messages were they?
MH: They were all in code
DK: Right, alright, ok
MH: Yes, but we didn’t do the code, we had to pass that on for somebody else to do
DK: So you wouldn’t really know what the message was
MH: No
DK: Right, ok, so
MH: When it was in code
DK: So it’s in code and then it’s deciphered elsewhere
MH: Yes
DK: Right. And if you transmit to them, was that in code as well?
MH: That in code
DK: So you pass the code
MH: Yes
DK: So the message you are sending out, you also [unclear]
MH: Yes, you wouldn’t know what the code was, no, no
DK: Did you sort of [unclear] that and wonder what you were saying or?
MH: No, I was young, wasn’t I? Seventeen and eighteen [laughs]
DK: So, once the Morse finished then, you were transmitting by radio? Presumably that wasn’t in code then
MH: Say that again
DK: Once Morse had finished, you said radios came in, you weren’t speaking in code then
MH: It was all in code, didn’t have anything in plain language
DK: Oh
MH: I didn’t
DK: Right
MH: No,
DK: Ok
MH: I liked the Morse code. When I came out and we moved to Horsham in West Sussex, I joined the Air Training Corps
DK: Right
MH: And taught them Morse, that happened for a little while, why I don’t know
DK: It’s not used very much now, is it? It’s not used today.
MH: No, well, they had what they called Morse lip reading and then, oh, what else did they have? There is the same as the aircraft, they change as well because they had a blister under the aircraft radar, and my husband one of the first people to go on a course for that
DK: H2S
MH: Yes, that radar
DK: Yeah, H2S
MH: At Yatesbury
DK: Right. So, he was, he worked on the radar [unclear]
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
MH: Yes, yes
DK: OK, well, I’m happy with that if you’re ok
MH: Not very interesting.
DK: It’s very interesting, if you ask me. You’ve got a photo here. Right, this is
MH: That’s Wickenby
DK: Right, this is just for the recording then, so
MH: That is a, on the back of this, that’s the radio section
DK: Alright. So, just for the recording here, we’ve got a picture of a Lancaster with
MH: Yes
DK: Are you in this?
MH: Somewhere [laughs], I think I’ve circled where my husband and I are [laughs]
DK: Oh, ok. So this is the signal station at RAF Wickenby, June 1945. So, assuming that sort of something taken for the end of the war, was it, a sort of souvenir?
MH: Well, I suppose so
DK: Yeah
MH: I can’t remember.
DK: So, it’s got the names of everybody on here, can’t see your circle
MH: So, how old’s your dad then?
DK: Oh, he’s ninety next year, be ninety next year
MH: A bit younger than me [laughs]
DK: Yeah. He would’ve, as I say, he would’ve caught the very last year of the war [unclear] he was called up
MH: Yes
DK: He was nineteen then, as I say, failed his medical to get in the Navy and ended up in the factories. I can’t see you here, see if you can point yourself out. Ah, right, ok, so you’re third one in from the left, front row. Ah!
MH: [laughs]
DK: Oh! That’s a wonderful photo there.
MH: What a change! Thank you
DK: So, just for the recording then, I got two photos here, that’s [unclear] good so and this is your husband
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah, and what was his name? What was his?
MH: Eric
DK: Eric, Eric. Yeah. So he was signals as well then. Yeah. Just for the recording here, I say, it’s a photo of a Lancaster from the signal section RAF Wickenby June 1945 and the aircraft is coded PH0, PHO, that’s for 12 Squadron and is that the squadron leaves the field? Is that the squadron right at the bottom there?
MH: Oh, that’s the, oh no, that’s the, that’s on the badge
DK: The crest, on the crest, so that’s the 4 Squadron crest
MH: I have been down to Brookwell, that’s where my mother’s home is, I’ve been down to Brize Norton and taken over the airfield by one of the workers there and had coffee in the officer’s mess
DK: Cause 101 squadron is still going, isn’t it?
MH: Yes, yes, yes, that’ll be, that’s a hundred years
DK: Yeah, I’m not too sure about 12 Squadron though, I don’t think, is 12 Squadron still going, do you know?
MH: No, 12 Squadron is, no, only 101
DK: Nor 626 either
MH: Uh, no
DK: No, no
MH: But I noticed that 61 Squadron was mentioned the other day. I can’t remember in connection with what. Because I thought to myself, oh, I was on 61, oh, something to do with that body that they found somewhere
DK: In Holland
MH: The aircraft that got lost
DK: Yeah
MH: That was 61 Squadron
DK: That was a wreck in Holland, wasn’t it?
MH: Yes
DK: Yes
MH: That was where I was in Sturgate was on 61 Squadron
DK: Right, alright. Cause I think they found the remains of one of the crew, don’t they?
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
MH: Yes, yes, I think it was the pilot cause he’d told all the others to jump out, didn’t he, and he didn’t.
DK: Right, right, yeah. Ok, let’s, let’s stop that there. I’ll ask the question again. Did you ever get to fly in a Lancaster?
MH: No, I didn’t [laughs]
DK: And there was a reason for that. What’s the reason?
MH: Yes, uhm
DK: You did flights to Germany?
MH: Yes, they were sending flights over Germany and I said to my husband who was my boyfriend then, I’m going on one of those, he says, if you go on one of those, I won’t marry you [laughs], so I didn’t go on one. And we were married for fifty-eight years [laughs]
DK: Did he go on one of those trips?
MH: No, I didn’t, no
DK: He didn’t either
MH: No
DK: No
MH: No [laughs]. When, going back to Brize Norton, an uncle of mine was at Brize during the war when they had the Wellingtons pulling the Horsa Gliders
DK: Oh right
MH: And apparently, they had to hold onto the back end of the glider before it took off and he held on and he fell and got killed and that was at Brize Norton.
DK: Right. Yeah. So, have you had many family members that have been in the RAF?
MH: No
DK: Right
MH: Only me.
DK: Right.
MH: My brother went into the navy, my father was in the army
DK: You mentioned your son-in-law, is it, he’s at Coningsby?
MH: My son-in-law
DK: Yeah, alright, ok
MH: With his husband
DK: Right, and he was at RAF at Coningsby?
US: No, he was in the United States Air Force
DK: Oh!
US: He served in, during the Vietnam war
DK Oh my!
US: He was in, think he was in Laos
MH: He gets teased. If anything goes wrong, he says, I’ll stay in America again, he doesn’t mind [laughs]
DK: So, what did he do in the US Air Force?
US: He was on, as far as I know, cause he doesn’t talk about it a great deal, he was on the helicopters, in the back end of the helicopters with a machine gun
DK: Oh right!
US: To, cause they used to go and pick up the downed pilots.
DK: Right
US: And he was one of the people that, you know, was protecting the people that were
DK: Going and pick’em up
US: Going to pick’em up
DK: Oh right, cause someone I know, I’ve never met him, but he’s the son of somebody who fought in, who served in RAF Bomber Command, who was a pilot but he has since gone back to America, lived there and he served in Vietnam on the helicopters doing a very similar job. Yeah. So where did you meet him then?
US: RAF Bentwaters
DK: Right. So you were
US: I was civil servant, yes.
DK: Right
US: And he was still serving time, I mean he was, he was actually military place
DK: Right. Spent time in Vietnam, interesting
US: Well, I think again, it was a case of joining the Air Force before he was
DK: Drafted in, yeah
US: Before he was drafted
DK: Drafted into the army, yeah. Ah, well, right, just for the recording again, there’s this lovely photo of your wedding
MH: Honeymoon paid for by the RAF in the Isle of Wight [laughs]
DK: Ah, that’s very nice, I’ve just come back from the Isle of Wight funnily enough, I was [unclear]
MH: Freshwater [laughs]
DK: Freshwater, yes, we went there. Very handsome chap. I like the way the flairs are in color
MH: Yes, you didn’t get things in color in those days
DK: No, no
MH: They all had to be hand done afterwards
DK: Lovely photo. And did your husband stay in the RAF?
MH: No
DK: Alright
MH: He wanted to
DK: Alright
MH: He was an architect, but I said no, I didn’t want my children to be sent to boarding school in this sort of and keep on moving here, there and everywhere so he went back and then got his degree in architecture
DK: Ah right. Did he tell you much about what he was doing cause you mentioned he was working on the radar?
MH: No
DK: Alright, so he never really talked about that
MH: No, he wasn’t very talkative about other things, was he?
DK: Alright.
MH: He would be a good friend, cause he wouldn’t tell anyone anything [laughs]
DK: But you knew he was working on the H2S radar then, yeah
US: His wing
MH: was part of the section
DK: Right, yeah, yeah
US: We were talking to a lady cause my mother got invited to one of the memorial flight
DK: Right
US: And we were talking to the curator there and she said, you know, how interesting it is talking to people after the war, how some people are quite happy to talk about it and it doesn’t bother them and other people just
DK: Just don’t
US: Just don’t want to
DK: We’ve actually found that this was part of this project there’s a lot of people now who obviously, you know, got to a great age are only now talking about it so when you ask about how many, you know, are still surviving, a lot of these people haven’t mentioned it but we identify them and then for the first time they are talking about what happened, you know, for understandable reasons they haven’t spoken about it before. Sometimes the families haven’t been interested and sometimes they just obviously found it too difficult to talk about and you know, it’s sad and understandable but you know hopefully now we are capturing some of those stories before it’s, you know obviously it’s too late. Cause some people say, well, why didn’t you start this project twenty years ago when the memories were fresher? And perhaps we should’ve done and [unclear] we would’ve done but they didn’t want to talk about it twenty years ago
MH: I’ve still got my father’s diary that he went into the army in 1916, was eighteen in 1916, and I’ve still got his diary written in pencil and still readable
DK: Yeah
MH: Of his time in the army and I’m just wondering whether records in any of the Army things might cause that’s no good to me, nobody wants them
DK: Yeah, it might, you can’t, does it mention which regiment he was with? Because there’s regimental museums, they might be interested probably
MH: Yes, oh right, I think I didn’t give it, I gave you something, didn’t I?
US: I’ve got a few bits and pieces of [unclear]
MH: I think I’ve got a
DK: Because there’s
MH: A little disk upstairs somewhere
DK: Because there’s similar projects to the Bomber Command one where if there is research into this particular regiment like us they might want to copy it, you keep the original document but they, cause now you don’t really need to hand over the original document, they just make a copy of it electronically and the family gets to keep the documents, so it might be worth looking into
MH: It’s very interesting reading and exactly as you see in these pictures with all the margin, he had, a bullet went in his neck and he lived until he was seventy-nine, but he had mustard gas
DK: My grandfather on my mother’s side, he was gassed in the First World War, he lived to be ninety-nine but he was, I think it was phosgene gas that he was wounded and he collapsed and had a label on him and he said, oh, you’ve got a blighty wound, you know, you’re going home and then my grandfather on my father’s side as well and his brother so my great grand uncles all fought in the Western Front
MH: I like hearing about people’s experiences during the war because I’ve got a friend that lives on the estate, he’s coming up ninety-three, and he was in the Red Berets
DK: Alright, yeah
MH: What are they called?
DK: The commandos
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah, yeah
MH: Yes, and he can tell me a few stories
DK: Ah, right. But once again, there might be a project where his stories are being captured, cause I know old history’s now is really a big thing really
MH: And I keep meaning to try and go to Ypres because an uncle of mine got killed in the first week of the First World War and a couple of years ago friends that live at Brize Norton they found his grave
DK: Ah, right
MH: And but I haven’t managed to get there
DK: Hopefully, you’ll get to see it
MH: So
US: Did you, did you have any Polish people on your squadron?
MH: Can’t hear you
US: Did you have any Polish people on your squadrons?
MH: Yes, no, no
DK: Oh, right, ok
MH: Oh no, not allowed, at Faldingworth, have you heard of Faldingworth?
DK: Yes, yes, yeah
MH: That was part of the number 1 Group at Faldingworth and when I got transferred from Ludford Magna to Wickenby which isn’t that far, we stopped at Faldingworth so they said you gotta stay in the van, what do you mean I gotta stay in the van? WAAF are not allowed to get out on a Polish squadron
DK: Really?
MH: The men are always after them [laughs], but you could always get lipstick and nylons and this sort of thing
DK: From the Polish
MH: And silk stockings and, yes, we swear that they used to land somewhere and pick these things up [laughs]
DK: So you have no idea where they got this stuff from then? You’ve got no idea where the Polish were getting the nylon from?
MH: No, no, no, no
DK: So you never actually met any Poles then, no?
MH: But they were always very nice [laughs]
DK: Yeah
MH: But you weren’t allowed out of the van [laughs]. But I don’t know whether there were any women on that squadron at Faldingworth, I didn’t know much about it but I know it was all Polish fliers there
DK: Yeah. So, when you were allocated to a squadron or a base, you really kept within that, did you, you didn’t really mix with people from other squadrons
MH: Well, I think so, I did because it was still Lincolnshire when I went to Gainsborough
DK: Right
MH: To Sturgate so I just stayed in and of course they used to, when you went from, you finished your course and they said, where do you want to go? Everybody put near home, well, you never ever got near home it was miles away [laughs] cause I was in Middlesex
DK: Did you manage to get home much though while you
MH: No,
DK: Served, no
MH; No, no
DK: So, you weren’t granted leave for the weekend or
MH: No, not very often, might get seven days now and again, and you would get days off, but you would just stay locally, well unless you were like me and skived down to my relatives [laughs]
DK: Ok, well, I’ll stop that there but thanks very much for your time. Put that back on again, the radiation cells, so they were all
MH: They were valves
DK: Right. So, was part
MH: Nothing electric
DK: So, was part of your role then changing the valves?
MH: Yes, yes and on the aircraft it was the same
DK: Alright. And this might sound an odd question, but did you take the whole radios out? You had to pull them out presumably.
MH: It could’ve done but I didn’t because they were too heavy
DK: Right. Right
MH: But there will be a receiver, what’s the other thing?
DK: Transmitter
US: Transmitter
DK: Yeah. And then all the valves that you had, did you use to change the valves?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And could you tell if the valves needed changing?
MH: Can’t remember, long time ago [laughs]
DK: But it was good technology because it worked
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
US: I mean, my dad used to build his own radios, didn’t he? Papi used to build his own radios after the war
MH: Yes
DK: Yes, yeah
US: Locked in boxes
MH: He really wanted to stay in, no, I wasn’t going to have my children taken away from me [laughs], go to boarding school
DK: It’s understandable. Ok
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Marian Hollier
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHollierM171016, PHollierM1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:38:19 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Marion Hollier served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force from February 1944 to September 1946. Before the war she worked in a construction firm, The George Wimpey Company, which built aerodromes. She learned the Morse code in the Women’s Junior Air Corps. Tells of her father who served as a telegraphist in the First World War. Later on, she joined the Air Training Corps. She was trained at RAF Wilmslow, then Blackpool on the Morse code, before moving to RAF Ludford Magna, with 101 Squadron, and from there to RAF Wickenby with 626 and 12 Squadron. At RAF Wickenby her duties included radio transmitting and carrying out inspections on aircraft. While she was stationed at RAF Ludford Magna, she witnessed enemy aircraft strafing headquarters.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945-06
101 Squadron
12 Squadron
626 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Wickenby
training
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1024/11396/PMcNallyC1701.1.jpg
6310003475cf7e95c88b2684552d9a48
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1024/11396/AMcNallyC171005.2.mp3
84d65a83800162abf7e90dc460624074
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McNally, Charles
C McNally
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Charles McNally (1922 - 2021, 1566660 Royal Air Force). He flew operations with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McNally, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach. The interviewee is Charles McNally. The interview is taking place at Mr McNally’s home in Broughty Ferry on the 5th of October 2017. Charles, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed. Could you tell me a little about your life before you joined the RAF?
CM: I was a boy who was born in Dundee but at two year old went to Airdrie because my father was an Airdrionian. My mother was a Dundonian. At eleven we came, I came back to Dundee and went to school in Dundee. And at fourteen, having left the school with six day school Highers which was quite unusual at that time I then joined the Post Office as a telegram boy. That was in August 1933. In June 1936 I applied to become a telephone engineer and was accepted for, in, as a youth in training apprentice with the Post Office Engineering Department in June 1936 as I’ve said. I spent the next three years up to the, up to the start of the war working on Post Office engineering work which at that time was Reserved Occupation and more likely required as a civilian than as a member of the armed forces. I was the only son of Thomas and Margaret McNally and we lived at that time Perrie Street in Dundee. My father who wore glasses and was a grade four [pause] grade four soldier was in the RAMC in the First War but no more than a private. So we had, we’d no real history of of wartime activity. And it was only when the war started and things got a bit difficult in Britain that the thoughts turned to well, why don’t I join the forces and see if I can do my bit for Britain. And that’s exactly where we are up ‘til 1941. And in 1941, at the age of nineteen I applied to be enlisted in, in one of His Majesty’s Forces. Preferably the Navy because I enjoyed, I enjoyed living beside the sea and I enjoyed the sea. But as at that time, as at that time being in a Reserved Occupation I have documentary proof that they refused to allow me to go into the Armed Forces and that’s the way it stood for some time until in 1941 they came out with the [pause] what would be the word? Came out, came out with an instruction that people in Reserved Occupations could apply to be in the Air Force but only as pilot or navigator and in the event of not being able to succeed in any of these two posts would be returned to their, to their job. And I have all the documentation to prove that. So eventually I was, in 1941 allowed to join the Air Force and in September 1941 I had my original exams and medication in Dundee and then following that with a further examination in Edinburgh. The, again I passed a grade one and I also passed to be fairly high marks I think because I was passed as an observer radio/pilot. Observer radio being the number one choice because of the, partly apparently because of the interview that I had it was more acceptable for me to go in to that particular post which was very difficult. A very difficult one. A very, a very what would be the word? A very prestigious post because I think navigator observer radios were navigators. They were also wireless operators and in some cases they were bomb aimers as well. And eventually I think that the observer radio eventually became navigator bomber wireless. However, I was put on, put on deferred service then and I was enlisted as 15660 Charles McNally in the [pause] Friday the 30th of January 1942, and given an RAF VR badge 69510 which, to put in your jacket to let people know that you were then a member of the Royal Air Force but on deferred service. And that’s how it stood until I was eventually recruited in nineteen, later in 1942 and joined up the 19th of October 1942 as, for training as, as a pilot. Clearly, they didn’t require any more observer radios. Now, do you want me to go on from there?
JS: Yeah. So, so what happened then?
CM: Well, I was recruited in to the Air Force and joined the RAF as RAF VR as it was. You wore a VR badge even though you were in the RAF. And I was enlisted at Number 1 Royal Air Crew Centre at Lords Cricket Ground in London, 19th of October 1942. From there, after three weeks initial training, all the various jabs and inoculations, boots and all the rest of it I went to Number 1 ITW in Babbacombe. Number 1 ITW was the special place as I understood it and I was posted to A flight. And I think we were the only flight in the whole of the Training Services in the Royal Air Force that wore a white belt rather than a traditional Air Force blue belt and kind of stood out. But at the same time our drill instructor was such a hard man that he made sure we as well as having the white belt we had to be the best soldiers as well as it were and it was pretty hard going. But halfway through the course at Babbacombe there was a flight, a test coming up. It was into, immediate halfway through the course and I thought well I’m not going as I usually did for a couple of pints of scrumpy but I went to another hotel for supper. We were living in small hotels in Babbacombe. I saw a light at the, what I thought was the door and I walked towards and it wasn’t. It was a light from a window in a gunny and I fell down it. That would be in December. And I finished up with, in RAF Wroughton with two cracked transverse processes of my spine. So I spent my first Christmas lying on boards in RAF Wroughton, Swindon until I, until I recovered. And going back to, it was a bit frustrating because it hindered me a bit. It was frustrating trying to get in the Air Force and it was frustrating again to have this. So I went back and I think it was C flight I went back in to and eventually finished up ok with the exams and so on and the, was then posted to Heaton. To Manchester. And we were in digs in Manchester and went to Heaton Park for, to see how everything was going and I can remember everybody sitting in this big hotel, this big hall at Heaton Park and your names came out as Joe Smith, bomb aimer, Charlie Young, navigator and then when your name came out Charles McNally, pilot it was [laughs] hurray. You didn’t shout out but internally it was. It was hurray. And that’s how from there we were taken to Gourock, just outside Glasgow and went on the original Queen Elizabeth to Canada for training. We arrived at the transit station at Moncton in New Brunswick and from there moved on to number 535 EFTS at a place called Neepawa. N E E P A W A. About fifty miles or so outside Winnipeg in Manitoba. Successfully passed. Oh, before that I should have said, I should have said while, before going to Canada after coming out of ITW being on pilot training then I went to number 3 EFTS for a Grading School to see how I could perform as a pilot and I soloed in under nine hours there so all was well. And that was why when I got to Heaton Park I was told I was going for pilot training I was really, thought I would get it anyway. So having got that far from EFTS where we flew Tiger Moths I went to 35 SFTS at North Battleford where we flew Oxfords. Oxford 5s. Very nice aircraft. Easy to fly. No problem. You did the usual training. Daytime. Night time. And it went quite successfully. So, back to Moncton again waiting for a ship. I came back to Britain on the Nieuw Amsterdam. That was the Nieuw Amsterdam which is no longer. More or less the old Amsterdam I think has been dead for years. But it was, it was very [pause] going out on the Queen Elizabeth it was only four days to the other, it was doing over thirty knots and zigzagging so no, no escort. But coming back with the Nieuw Amsterdam it took six days in horrible weather with a Corvette escort. And the Corvette escort you could hardly see it. It was under the waves most of the time. It was shocking. It was March weather and we came back to Britain and again ran into frustrations. I was posted to Harrogate which was a transit. A transit camp. One of the hotels, the Imperial Hotel I think it was in Harrogate. And, we from there we stood around again. We were sent out on courses to, I remember one course we did was more like a commando course at a place just outside Whitley Bay. And I’ve got a picture of it with myself with a tin helmet on and a rifle with another friend of mine Jimmy Jackson, another Dundonian who was on the course with me. Again, the only help, the only positive that came out of that was apart from the work during the day was having a few beers at night. So, and then I was posted to Brough in, near Hull and I was flying Tiger Moths there with, it’s in the book, was flying Tiger Moths there taking people, sergeants, navigators on training flights. I was getting nowhere. And eventually in Autumn of 1944 I was offered my Class B release because as a volunteer it was quite easy for them to just to let me go. Well, that didn’t suit me one little bit so I thought how am I going to get into Bomber Command? Having trained in two, two engines I was quite capable of flying even four engines because it’s the same procedure. Just a couple of more engines. But you know I was getting nowhere with that so I said to them, ‘Well, I’ll retrain as a flight engineer if you wish. So they said, ‘Yes. If you want.’ So I went and did a flight engineer’s course and then was posted to the squadron as flight engineer second pilot. So although I wasn’t at the controls I, from time to time I had the feel of them and in an emergency it would have been easy for me to, to take over. But on the second flight [pause] from, the first flight was to Chemnitz as I recall it. That was the same night, February the 14th, I think that was the same night of the second raid on Dresden. Chemnitz was about forty or fifty miles south of Dresden as I recall it and the bomber force split in two. The, we went down through France and rather than straight over through Germany [pause] And the flight, the flight was a circuitous route.
[pause – pages turning]
It took eight hours fifty five minutes. All on a bar of chocolate and a flask of coffee. So it was, it was quite a long haul and, but it went without, without incident. And then on our second operation to Dortmund that was a shorter flight but regrettably coming back one of the engines packed in and we couldn’t make out what was wrong with it so decided to feather the engine and fly back on three. Which any pilot would be capable of doing in a normal circumstances. In fact, they were trained to do. To fly on three. However, coming back and almost, on on the circuit to the airfield for some unaccountable reason I recall saying to the pilot, at that time I was sitting beside him, the pilot was, sorry, Pilot Officer Kerr and he came from Arbroath. He, I said to him, I can recall at the last minute saying, ‘Jim,’ we were more or less on equal terms although he was the skipper, I said, ‘There’s nothing on the clock.’ And suddenly we hit ground. Fortunately, it was a ploughed field. I’ve got pictures of it. So on the whole we were all relatively free from accident other than the bomb aimer who was at the front got the most of the impact and he broke, he broke an ankle or leg or something. But we lost him anyway. So we got seven days leave. That was the February the 20th. We got, we got some seven days leave and I believe at that time that was about the time of the crossing of the Rhine. It was about March. March. Somewhere in March. But when we come back on March the 3rd we did three engine landings. Obviously we should have done that before. And then went on back to Chemnitz again. And then Kasel from there. That was in March. Early March. So after that it was really plain sailing. Nordhausen. Kiel. By the way the Admiral Scheer was sunk on that raid. The German battleship. And then there was [pause] near the end April the 14th I, they were short of a [pause] a the flight engineer and I volunteered to go with a Flying Officer [unclear] to Potsdam. This was eventful. Fortunately, it was near the end of the war but we were caught in searchlights. And again fortunately there was a bit of ack ack but there was no, there was no fighters in the air. So it was just a question of releasing the bombs and diving down via Leipzig to get, to get away. And as we dived down the searchlights began to just dim and forget, switched off. Following that we did Heligoland. That was the, the operation to the German I think where their submarines were under concrete hiding, you know. And that was, that was a fairly easy trip. Four hours twenty minutes. And then we went to Bremen. Now, I remember Bremen. The mission was abandoned. There was as I said cloud over the, the point of dropping but as we were told later we were too early. We were going to be bombing Bremen to make it easy for the troops to, to get in. And by the time we got there the troops had arrived. So, as we couldn’t see them —
JS: Yeah.
CM: Just decided let’s not. That was some of the, some of the raids. And then after that we started dropping food to the Dutch. I’ve got, I’ve got a nice letter and a little badge. A little medal from them. And the first one of that was April the 30th. A week or two before the war finished. That was the Hague. And then we did Rotterdam twice on May the 3rd and May the 7th. And then on May the 11th we went to Brussels and brought, repatriated some ex-POWs. And that concluded that part of the operation. Well, at that time the thought was that we would have to go to Japan so there was a lot of training done. There was a lot of training done in anticipation of that. And I think, although it’s not shown here, I’m not sure I think they were going to put the Lancaster in to larger wings with bigger tanks and it was going to be called the Lincoln. But I don’t recall much about that. However, on July the 9th we went to Hamburg, Heligoland, Kasel, Dusseldorf the Möhne Dam etcetera with, with ground crew. And this was to let them see the damage that had been done. I can recall the Hamburg especially. There was nothing standing. So, I don’t know whether, there’s one here — Operation Ramrod. I can’t think what that was. So, then we went in September. In September we went to Pomigliano In Naples bringing troops back from, from Italy. We did that on one, two, three, four occasions. So that was fine. 7th 10th 21st 27th and after that, just after that I was offered my, my release because 101 Squadron disbanded on the 1st of October. And I was offered my release again. But having had, this is the important part, having had my spinal injury I thought something I should do just to make sure I’m ok before I leave the RAF. So I volunteered to become a PTI, Physical Training Instructor. So I did three weeks at Cosford and eight weeks at St Athan, and in January ’46 I was posted to RAF Hospital Northallerton as the PTI for the staff. Not so much the patients. Mainly the staff. And I was in charge of the cricket team, the football team and also cross country and so on. So it proved to me that although I’d been through all this and had the problem with my back which again, it did, it was with me for some time after the war. And my right leg. I felt the right leg wasn’t as good as the left but it did prove to me that I was capable of going back to work. And I went back to work in September to the Post Office Engineering Department and within two weeks was at the local Tech doing my night classes for promotion which came along in time. That was virtually the story of the war.
JS: Good. You mentioned when we spoke before we started the interview that, that 101 Squadron was involved in the electronic counter measures.
CM: That’s correct.
JS: Is that something that your plane did?
CM: Yes. I can recall it vividly. The thing, I think we had him twice. One of the times, the one time that stands out in my mind is we were all crewed up and suddenly this car arrives with a gentleman in it. We didn’t see who he was. It was dark. He got into the plane. Sat behind his curtain with his equipment. We never saw him. Never spoke to him. Never said a word. Did the, did the, he wasn’t with us when we crashed. It was, must have been later. He left the plane first before us before we de-crewed and went away in a car. We never ever saw him. But he had a, he sat behind a curtain underneath the mid-upper gunner with his equipment. And it was pretty cold in there. I think he must have had a flying suit on like the gunners. But we never ever saw him and, but we were pleased that when he was with us we had no incidents. No.
JS: You — how was your crew? I’ve heard stories about crews being formed by everybody just being put in a big bunch and sort of saying go sort your crew out yourself.
CM: No. We went to, after I’d finished my course at St Athan as a flight engineer we went to a place at Huntingdon [pause] Hang on [pause – pages turning ] Get it in the back here. Babbacome, Heaton Park, Ludlow, Manchester, Moncton, Harrogate. Of course was Harrogate. Harrogate. Harrogate. Tempsford. Huntingdon. AMU. A 10. No. That must have been later. Sturgate, Lindholme. Heavy Conversion Unit. Yeah. We went to a place. RAF Sturgate in Lincolnshire. Never heard of it. Now, looking back but that’s where we were all put together and we chose. We chose who we would fly with. And the pilot then was Jim Kerr from Arbroath. I think he stayed on the Air Force. Did very well. But I thought, well he’s a Scotsman. He’s just down the road from where I live. Perfect combination and that’s how I got to fly with him. And he was very good because I had the odd chance of flying the Lancaster. In any emergency I could have. I could have performed. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that. That was it. And then we went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Lindholme in January 1945. And I joined 101 Squadron, Ludford Magna on the 29th of January 1945 when I left Lindholme. And I was there on, I was there until 30th of September 1945. That’s when I went to St Athan. And then Northallerton. And I was demobbed on the 3rd of September 1946, the [pause] I remember I’ve got the, I’ve got the information here. I got a train ticket to Uxbridge. And I remember getting a lovely suit and hat and jacket and coat and so on. All very well. But that was, that was my career. It was a bit stuttered because I was frustrated from the beginning trying to get in. And then I was frustrated because I wasn’t taken up as an observer radio. And then I was frustrated having passed as a pilot that I couldn’t fly as a pilot and, although fortunately I did get the opportunity but not officially.
JS: Yeah.
CM: But in the event of an emergency I would have quite easily flown the aircraft. There’s no difference between two and four. Just two engines. The procedure and everything else was the same. So there we are. That was it. And the Lancasters I flew were a Lancaster 1, the Lancaster 3 and the Lancaster 10. I think of the Lancaster 10 as I remember it had the number five, .5 bullets in and had they had, they had the bigger turret. Aye. So there we are. I do have, funny enough I do have [pause] Where is it? That was a, that’s an interesting picture.
[pause]
JS: And who drew that?
CM: Sorry?
JS: Who? Who drew the picture of you?
CM: Now, the person that drew that was a, I was sitting in class and his name was Dougal Garden and he was an illustrator with the Courier in Dundee and he handed it to me later and said, ‘There you are.’ That was me. Yeah. I could show you a lot of other pictures if you’re keen to see them.
JS: Once we’ve finished chatting that would be really useful.
CM: Ok. Now, I also during the time, I can’t find it —
JS: Well, let’s, let’s have a look when we’ve finished chatting. You mentioned your pilot from Arbroath. You’ve mentioned your pilot from Arbroath.
CM: Ah huh.
JS: So, how, how was the rest of your crew made up?
CM: Norman Gill was the navigator. Charlie Williams was the wireless op. The two gunners were, Albert Edwardson was one of the them. The rear gunner, he was an old boy. An older boy with two children of which at the time I thought, what are you thinking about, you know, becoming an air gunner when you’ve a family, about thirty years of age. We were all in our early twenties. The bomb aimer was the fellow that got injured. His name was Francis. I can’t remember his first name now. And he was a Canadian. That was the first of it.
JS: And, and how did you get on as a crew?
CM: Oh, had no problem. Very well. Yeah. Ah huh. Och aye. Even after the incident with the flap pancaking in a ploughed field. We just went back to business again. Yeah.
JS: That’s great. You mentioned when we were chatting earlier that the base you were at was, was equipped with FIDO.
CM: Ah huh.
JS: So, how often was that used and was it in use any time that you were there?
CM: It was. It was used quite a lot actually. What it was was that two strips, two strips along the main runway with holes in them and there was petrol and they set it alight and immediately the heat from the petrol cleared, cleared the air quite considerably. It was no problem. In fact it was a dream for some aircraft that couldn’t land on their own, on their own ‘drome. Even I recall Americans come again. I can remember one of the American, an American gunner and he, he was quite adamant. He said, ‘I don’t care what was behind me,’ he said, ‘Whether it was a Lancaster, a Stirling, or whatever. If anybody got close to me they got the guns.’ They were, they were still gun happy [laughs] But it was, it was a boon. Although we were four hundred feet above sea level in the Lincolnshire Wolds the fact that these petrol jets cleared the air was, and it was quite easy to land in between them. No problem.
JS: That’s great. So after you demobbed you went back to —
CM: Yes.
JS: The Post Office. Telecoms. And there was some retraining after that. Is that right?
CM: Yes. Well, not a lot but there was a bit but I went on courses of course with the Post Office Engineering Department to a place called Stoke. No. Stone near Stoke. That’s where we spent in some cases seven or eight weeks and you never got home at weekends in those days, you know.
JS: That’s great. So coming out from Bomber Command after the war how do you think as a Bomber Command veteran you were treated after the war?
CM: I think I was treated fairly well. I was never ever, never ever approached to say I’d done anything wrong. Oh, no. No. Oh, no. The, the feeling that I, the feeling was, and it was although some folk thought it was a bit immoral to go and bomb towns the feeling was for people who were in this country and had suffered with the German bombs, the V-1s, the V-2s it was a delight every time they put the news on and found there had been a thousand bomber raid the night before. It gave them heart that we were taking the war to Germany and we were getting somewhere. And that was the feeling. And it was a feeling. It was the correct feeling because Bomber Command at that time was the only force that could make any real impact in the war. Although maybe it didn’t impact tremendously on the production and all that sort of thing. Mentally. Mentally it had a tremendous achievement. Tremendous. Yeah. In fact, even now coming back at this late stage in my life if anybody you meet who knows you’ve been in the war as a pilot and as a flight engineer they’re always delighted to know you’ve done this for us. Well, in a way there’s a funny incident about that. Anyway, you’re putting your life on the life for Britain at night while other people are lying in their beds sleeping. But there was one occasion. You see in the 21st of March 1945 the lady I was due to marry was going to be posted abroad so we decided to get married. And we got married on the 21st. She was in the ATS and she was a corporal going to be promoted to sergeant and sent to Italy. So at short notice we decided we would get married when she was billeted in Carlisle. We got married and had, I got seven days notice from the Air Force for a, for a [pause] what’s the word? [pause] Seven days notice for the, for the wedding and thereafter the honeymoon and so on.
JS: Leave.
CM: Leave. That’s the word I’m looking for. But my wife, she got fourteen days. Now, for seven days she came to Ludford and I got permission to live off base and we lived in a, with a woman in a bungalow. I don’t recall it very because it was one these old fashioned ones you had to pump the water up at night to get water and so on but being off base I wasn’t too involved in anything. And I was walking in the village with my wife at that time of seven days, eight days. And suddenly the station wagon pulled up, ‘Charlie, you’re flying tonight.’ Now, I had to leave my wife in the street. At that time, in the middle of a little village and say, ‘Cheerio darling. All being well I’ll be back tomorrow.’ At the same time being a widow, being a wife one week she could quite easily have been a widow the next. But that was life as it was and that was, that’s a personal thing. Yeah. Yeah. You know. You’re leaving this lady you’ve just married. I cannot remember what the raid was but, no. Looking back it must have been hard on her.
JS: Absolutely.
CM: Sorry?
JS: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s great. Thank you very much.
CM: And when you come back really, just at the end when you come back you’re like a coal miner because you’ve had a mask on for eight hours and you’re like nothing on earth and you think as if you look terrible. To go back to my wife looking like that was [laughs] after debriefing and so on, you know. But that was, that was the story of my life really. Quite, quite eventful really. A bit stuttery and a bit frustrating because I wanted, I’ve got the documentation here from the office telling me I couldn’t join in the forces. And then the offer of getting in as a pilot or navigator. Passing as an observer radio which was a very high class pass. Finished and they didn’t need observer radios so they trained me as a pilot. Got my pilot’s and got back to Britain as a pilot and then found I wasn’t needed as a, for further training as a pilot and offered my release. Now, that was the last thing I wanted because inside in me at twenty one the only thing I wanted to do was hit the Germans. So the one way I could do it was to rebrand as a flight engineer. So I was trained in both capacities. And I suppose in a way there’s not many like that in the Air Force today. Or was at that time. I don’t recall in the class at St Athan when we did the engine, the course on engines any other pilot. I think they were all just recruits.
JS: Great.
CM: But that was it. Thank you.
JS: Thank you very much. That was magic. I really enjoyed that. That was really really good. So, I will stop this.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Charles McNally
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
James Sheach
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMcNallyC171005, PMcNallyC1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:41:43 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Charles McNally spent his childhood in Dundee and Airdrie, Scotland. He began work at the Post Office as a Telegram Boy before joining the engineering department. This meant he now worked in a Reserved Occupation and he struggled to get permission to volunteer for the RAF. He eventually secured his release but had an unusual route to securing his posting. He began training as an observer radio. He then went on to train as a pilot. He eventually became a flight engineer and was posted to 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna dealing with electronic counter measures. Charles married while he was still on operational flying. On honeymoon he was walking through the village with his new wife when he was collected for an operation that night and effectively left his wife at the roadside not knowing if she would soon be a widow.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942-10-19
1945-01
1945-03-21
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
FIDO
flight engineer
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
love and romance
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Oxford
physical training
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
RAF Sturgate
RAF Wroughton
sport
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1128/11651/PSmithAP1801.2.jpg
5005da2dc1fa3c5fe6b15887d2696a7a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1128/11651/ASmithAP180103.1.mp3
6e18c214c8d145f8259a33f8e0f4ec50
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Arthur Peter
A P Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Peter Smith (1923 - 2018, 1808854 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, AP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Arthur P Smith who is usually known as Peter today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Peter’s home in Kent and it is Wednesday the 3rd of January 2018. So thank you, Peter for agreeing to talk to me today. Perhaps to start the interview you could tell us about your background. Where and when you were born and what your family background was.
PS: Yes. Right. I was born at Wateringbury just outside of Maidstone and my mother and younger sister were working on a farm I’m afraid but that was the way it was in those days. And I stayed there at school at Nettlestead and Wateringbury until I was nine. And then we moved to Paddock Wood where my mother had two sisters because my mother had about nine or ten sisters altogether. So we were all trying to get roughly together. And I went to Paddock Wood School from nine until I was fourteen which was the time in those days practically everybody left school. Boys and girls. And when I was fourteen, in Paddock Wood they had a wood work shop where lots of younger boys could learn woodwork which was quite a good thing in those days and we carried on doing that for two or three years. Then the war started I’m afraid, and you would not believe it but we started making army huts. And I’ve never seen so many army huts in all my life which were going all over England. So of course they were calling up, all the boys for service life and they had to have somewhere to live which was, that was where our army huts were going. And we carried on doing that as, all the time I was there. So then in 19 — the beginning of ’41 a friend of mine, we decided to join the Air Cadets but we had to go to Tunbridge Wells which was a fair cycle ride during the blackout in those days. So we had to go on a Sunday and one day in the week. So, but in the middle of June to July we happened to be going on a Sunday lunchtime and all of a sudden there was a, well it was a dogfight between Germans and English right over our heads at a place called Matfield. I shall never forget it because we sat on the side of the road for about two hours listening to the Battle of Britain and we couldn’t believe it. All of a sudden there were horrible chink chink clink clink and a pile of ammunition hit the road which luckily didn’t hit us so we did worry too much about it. But that went on for sort of two or three hours then. We just sat there until it finished. But in 1941 we, we joined in those days was the Air Defence Cadet Corps. But in 1941 they started the new ATC which a new squadron started at Tonbridge. So we could go there by train so we didn’t have to cycle to Tunbridge Wells anymore. So I joined that and because I’d been in the Air Cadets for quite a long time I found myself being a sergeant very soon. It was only for mostly drill and that sort of thing. So, and then I stayed there ‘til March. March ’43. But in the meantime in the middle of ’42 I’d had a medical but they said because at the moment we haven’t got room for training we’ll put you on deferred service which they gave you a little silver badge which you wore but two people still kept asking, ‘Why aren’t you in the service?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m waiting to go,’ so which I did in March ’43. So, as most people know when you joined aircrew in London it’s so many things to do. Medicals. What you know? Do you know? What you’ve got to know. And we had two weeks in London and then I went to Bridlington for six weeks doing all sorts of training. Aircraft recognition, Morse Code and drill and how to take a gun to bits and put it together and all that sort of thing. And then I think I think I had a weeks’ leave from that and then I went up to Bridgenorth for another six weeks training which was a bit more advanced than what we’d already been doing. And then I finished that six weeks and then they decided that they had a new Air Gunnery School at Dalcross, just outside of Inverness. So I ended up there for another six weeks where I did my six weeks air gunner’s course. So when it ended up, it was a beautiful summer that year and I remember we used to go out flying and the weather was so lovely I don’t think ever once did we have to cancel anything because the weather was beautiful. And all in all by the time we finished I went from an AC2 joining the Air Force to four and a half months and I was a sergeant air gunner, and most people couldn’t believe it because I had a job to believe it as well. But, and then we came home, had some more leave and then I went up to Lichfield which, I think is in Lincolnshire. And I just couldn’t believe it because we went at this, you know and there was about four or five hundred different air crew. Pilots, navigators, wireless ops, bomb aimers. Everything. And everybody was just wandering around smoking, chin wagging, coffee when you could find one. And then I was standing over at a tree looking out over the woods and these two Canadians came over. A pilot and navigator, and they came over, started chatting and the pilot said, ‘Hey mate,’ something like that, because he didn’t know my name, ‘Would you like to fly with me? Or my navigator, and we’ve got a bombardier over there so that’s three Canadians. Would you like to fly with us?’ So I didn’t know any better so I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll fly with you.’ ‘Ok,’ he says, gave him my name and everything and they took it down and went over and saw, there was a couple off officers sitting at this table writing everything down. And then they said, ‘Oh, well, come and we’ll introduce you to the wireless operator.’ And then that, at the moment was all our crew which was five. Just the navigator, pilot and bomb aimer, wireless op and me, the other gunner. And then they said, ‘Right. All get in a lorry,’ and went to a little sort of well it’s just a little aerodrome called Sleap which was the OTU where we started to learn all our air [pause] I don’t know what you’d call it. Instruction I suppose. And we were flying Whitleys and the pilot said, ‘Well, I like them,’ because they’d got two nice, I believe, Merlin engines I think. I think, but and they had a rear gun. And we did where the pilot and I, I can’t remember how many circuits and landings we did but I know we kept on for about a week. Circuits and landings about ten times a day for a week and then we started doing sort of small cross countries for about probably an hour. Then we kept doing that and then we started doing bombing trips as well so the bomb aimer could get some time in and the wireless operator. We all did sort of different jobs just to get more, well so we knew what we were doing. And then we did that. We was there for about six or seven weeks. And they found out that we got so many crews they didn’t know where to put them. So I think I remember we went home for about two weeks again. Then we went back. We went back to the same OTU for a week. And then they decided to send us to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was a Halifax and the pilot said he was a bit annoyed about that because he didn’t want to fly on a Halifax. He wanted Lancs. And so we did four or five weeks in this Halifax. Mostly circuits and landings again for about a week. And then we started doing more bombing trips, and trips for the wireless operator and a lot of more cross countries but all our flying was over England. And we did, oh quite a few cross countries and then I can’t actually remember the time but I think it must have been sort of October perhaps something like that. Maybe November. But then we got another week’s leave because we got so many crews lined up we didn’t know what to do with them. So we had another week and then we went back to [pause] Oh God, I can’t remember. No. It wasn’t Coningsby. No. I can’t remember the name but we went back to another Conversion Unit which was a Lancaster Finishing School which made the pilot happy. So we got back to there. I think it was somewhere around about the beginning of November which we started doing cross countries, bombing trips for about four or five weeks. And then we had another weeks holiday and then we ended up back at, or back at Ludford Magna which we didn’t know was a bomber station in those days because it hadn’t been going, only I think since about the middle of July and we went there just before Christmas ’43. Then we did another few cross countries, bombing trips, all in training. And then they said to my pilot, ‘You’re going on a second dickie tonight.’ So, I don’t know if you know but Canadians had a Commissioner in London. So if you didn’t agree with some things you used to go and see the Commissioner and they would sort it out you hoped. Anyway, my pilot said, ‘I’m not going.’ And he wouldn’t go because, you don’t probably know but quite often if that pilot went on a trip with a operational crew it was always surprising the number of pilots went missing. And the crew were left at home with no pilot. So that crew either had to get another pilot or start training again. So anyway my pilot said, ‘I’m not going,’ which he didn’t go. So about two or three nights later they said, ‘Right. You don’t want to go on a cross country. You can go on a raid.’ So that’s the 27th of January we went to nine hours to Berlin. And we’d never been out of the country before and that was the first trip. They said, ‘You’ll be alright. You can have a rest tomorrow night.’ Of course we didn’t. We just were just sort of thinking about getting up when we got called in. ‘You’re going to Berlin again tonight.’ So, which we did. And then we had a weeks’ leave from there. And then we came back. Then I think, I think we did another Berlin. I think we did about three in a row and then we started doing Schweinfurt, all the —
[recording paused]
CJ: So you’ve got your list there.
PS: Yeah.
CJ: Of the raids you went on.
PS: Yeah. Yes. Well, I have a list here of all the raids we did. And we did the first three were Berlin. And then Leipzig, Stuttgart, Schweinfurt, Augsburg, two more Stuttgarts and then two to Frankfurt. And then we did a fourth Berlin. That was middle of March. And then Essen. And then we went to that horrible Nuremberg where we had the worst night of the war as far as Bomber Command went because we lost ninety six aeroplanes of just Bomber Command. And we lost seven aeroplanes from Ludford Magna which was, the old sergeant’s mess was a bit quiet on the next morning, 30th of March. I’ll never forget that one. And then after that we started doing a few to France. Another one called [unclear] Aachen, and then we went to Cologne. Dusseldorf. Karlsruhe. Another one to Schweinfurt and [unclear] Hasselt, Cologne, Duisburg, Dortmund and two to Aachen which was back in Germany. Then we did two in France. A place called Trappes. And then on the thirtieth of, our thirtieth trip we went to do the big guns at Calais which was quite a nice trip. Only just over three hours. We were home, back to bed in four hours. Lovely. And then the next night we thought well we’ve finished our thirty. That’s us finished. But they, after that which was the 5th of June they said, ‘You haven’t finished yet because you’ve got one more. Everybody.’ And that was a special duty operation which we thought well what special duty? So this night, the only night we didn’t carry any bombs but all the aircraft were filled with Window which was a type of paper which was used to interrupt or stop the German radio from working properly. But so we spent all night going from Dover to Paris dropping this Window all night which, well it wasn’t quite all night, it was only six and a half hours but, but all two squadrons were just going backwards and forwards all night dropping this Window. Then when we decided to go home we couldn’t think, we got the other side of London and we saw sort of hundreds of aeroplanes all going the other way. Going towards France. So we didn’t quite figure it out until we got back and landed and then they told us that the, all the troops and everything had gone across the Channel and were invading France. We didn’t see anything ‘til we got home which was, well we thought it was quite good. But in that time I was at Ludford Magna we lost seven hundred and thirty nine aircraft from the time we were landed. And we lost five thousand two hundred airmen in our time.
CJ: Yeah. And did you talk about that much on the base or was it something you just —
PS: Oh, you didn’t talk about it at all. No. You just [pause] well we were lucky in one way because we had six NCOs. Only one officer. Only the pilot was the officer. And we were lucky in another way that we had a small hut. Just us six. So it was just us. Well, and as I say the pilot used to spend most of his time with us and just go home to bed. You know, eat or drink sort of thing. But other than that we sort of lived in that hut on our own you know. Yeah.
CJ: So, how did you pass your time on the base when you weren’t on ops?
PS: Well, I used to play a lot of badminton. I know I couldn’t play all day but and they took, we took over one of the hangars, or we had two badminton courts painted on the floor sort of thing, you know. And there was four, five, six of us who quite often played badminton. And I I got my bicycle there as well and quite often, well quite often but maybe once or twice a week I used to cycle out for the day, you know or to [pause] I can’t remember the name of the village now but we went to, you know riding around just for something to do. There was two or three of us used to cycle around because it was alright cycling in those days because you didn’t see only about four, four cars a day because they just wasn’t about which was quite nice. And there was plenty of places to cycle and quite little tea shops. All, even in war time there was little tea shops around. So all in all with badminton and cycling we didn’t do too bad. And the navigator and I always, if possible we went to church on Sunday morning. And we were the only two in our crew. But we thought that was quite nice. We thoroughly, we really enjoyed it, but on a Sunday morning and there used to be always quite a few local people there. A very good church service.
[pause]
CJ: So when you were going on a raid, on ops how were you told and how did you prepare for it?
PS: What happened? What happened? Even though, if we’d been on a raid the night before we didn’t used to get up until lunchtime. So we’d always go to lunch but normally if you got up for breakfast there’d be a notice on the board, “Meeting at 10 o’clock,” which everybody had to go to. Every flyer had to go to. And you would see around about there’d be policemen around about making sure that odd people can’t get in anywhere. And then you’d all go to the crew room and the CO and that would walk in and mention ops tonight. And then he’d say, ‘Make sure you have your meals and everything,’ And there’d be another meeting at probably three hours before you went on a trip. So you went to the meeting and the navigation people and the bloke in charge of the weather.
CJ: Meteorologist.
PS: Yeah. And he would tell you what the weather was going to be like. Possible to where you were going. And there would be a big notice across the top of the board where you were going which used to make you wake up a bit. And they’d tell you all the different places roughly where you’d go over or around and then they’d tell you what bomb load you’d got and what petrol load you’d got, because if you were only going sort of the middle of France or the entrance to Germany you never took a full bomb load which was twenty one thousand two hundred and fifty four petrol. Which quite often you didn’t take a full bomb load. And then you would, about two hours before you went you could go and have supper which was always egg and chips for supper. Every time. Same old thing. Egg and chips. And then quite, that’s it. You’d get a lift on a lorry to take you to the crew room. Then, being the gunners, the two gunners we had to wear more cold weather suits than anybody else because the front five of the crew were, being up in the front of the aircraft they got hot air from two of the engines which we didn’t have in the two turrets. But just before I went there they’d arranged to have electrically heated flying suits, or a suit you wore under your outer suit which had wire to your arms and legs and you had slippers on which were electrically heated and gloves and your body waist coat. But you never had nothing around your legs. Only the wire that went to your feet. By the time you’d got all your gear on, four pairs of socks, I’d got a nice pair of silk stockings and ordinary shoes and a great big pair of flying socks as well. By the time you’d got them on you had a job to walk. And the suit was a great big suit that you wore over the top of everything. And I always used to wear a silk scarf because I always sort of felt I, my head was always cold. But I never felt cold in my hands and feet which was a good thing. But then one night we, we’d come halfway back and you found the oxygen wasn’t working. So we managed to get the oxygen bottles and stick them on but my ears really froze so bad that the lobes were frozen more or less for about a week before they came back into real circulation which I, which I didn’t fancy very much. But then another night we came all the way back from Berlin with no rear turret because the outer port engine used to work the rear turret which of course the engine didn’t worked. The only time we had ever had anything go wrong was that one engine when I couldn’t use the turret. Other than that we had thirty one trips with nothing really went wrong. Absolutely superb aeroplane. And I always think we had a really good pilot which I’ll show you what he did in a minute. But, and other than that I don’t think we never got attacked once. Saw quite a few fighters but we were told unless they actually attacked don’t let them know where you are. You want to come back. So I never fired my guns once at all. Only just to test them sort of thing. Never fired them at anything. But quite often over the target, because when you looked over the target it was like a beautiful big bonfire which it was, and you could see lots of fighters criss-crossing the raid and quite a few Lancaster’s as well but what I was more frightened about than anything was running into another aeroplane. A Lancaster. I wasn’t worried about anything else because unless you sort of have been there and seen the number of aircraft that you’re all flying the same way. I mean sometimes we were having eight hundred more aeroplanes all going the same way and all being over the target within sort of thirty, forty, fifty minutes. Which is a lot of aeroplanes going the one way and, but luckily enough I mean quite often you’d see a great big bang where you know two aeroplanes have collided. I mean you saw more of that than you see of anything going wrong really. That was more frightening than anything else because I just didn’t fancy, well I didn’t fancy falling out the aircraft where you don’t know where you’re going. So there again we were so lucky. Yeah.
CJ: So what would your responsibilities have been as the rear gunner then if you were attacked?
PS: Well, if you were attacked well it all depends. They used to sort of, they didn’t sort of come down they always came up under your back side. And it was a thing to keep your eyes open sort of level down because if a fighter was coming up he was probably coming up from the darkness wasn’t he? And you’ve got to try and see him before he sees you. But, and if he did it’s your, to attack and tell the pilot what to do. I mean if they sort of come around to the left you’d want to go to the left. You’d tell the pilot, ‘Corkscrew left,’ you know, sort of thing as quick as possible. Or right or whatever and just well just hope for the best every time. But as I say we were just so lucky that it didn’t happen. But as I say we, we were never attacked once and everything all those trips over to Germany but just well you think there’s thirty there and we was never attacked once. You can’t be much more lucky than that can you? I don’t think you can anyway.
CJ: So, what happened to you and your crew when you’d done your thirty first op?
PS: Well, we had two or three days together and then we all had, I can’t remember, I think we had about a fortnight’s holiday. We went, I can’t remember where we went back to but I went back to —
[pause – pages turning]
CJ: So you went back to where?
PS: Yeah. So when I finished there I went back to 27 OTU Lichfield which was another trainee OTU for trainee aircrew which was Wellingtons. And I was there for well, where are we? [pause] I was there, I was there for three months and then they eight or nine aircrew they came in one morning and said, ‘You’re all going to learn to drive. You’re going to Blackpool.’ So we said, ‘Oh lovely. That’s alright.’ But one or two of the blokes could drive anyway but then we all went anyway. But in the end ended up ten of us went to Blackpool to learn to drive. Because I didn’t know how to do it but two or three had already driven. But in there we used to go down the, where all the lorries and things were about 8 o’clock in the morning. And then we’d have perhaps two hours being told all what makes a lorry and car go, and all how to repair it. How to take a wheel off. Everything. Everything about a car. But we had like two hours every day and then we’d go and have two hours driving around the aerodrome. Well, it wasn’t an aerodrome. It was a driving school. We’d have two hours driving round and then after lunch we’d have another two hours learning how to put the lorry together. Then in the afternoon we’d have another two hours driving through Blackpool. There weren’t many cars about in those days but we did this for six weeks. Oh, God it was shocking but in the end we all passed because they just used to say, ‘Drive.’ You were just told what to do and we did it and they’d say, ‘You pass.’ We didn’t have like it is now. But we all did that and then they said, ‘Righto.’ We’d got another week’s leave and when you came back they said oh I’m going to RAF Gravely which is in Norfolk, not too far from Cambridge which was a PFF Lancaster squadron and a Mosquito squadron and we were, you know just joined all the, all the other LAC drivers and that. But most of us were ex-aircrew and when we used to drive around because we used to pick up the aircrew which were going on ops. We used to drive a mini bus and take them out to the ops. A lot of these aircrew said, ‘How do you get a job like this?’ Which was quite laughable really because we’d already, us, had already done our tour, but they didn’t know that. But we used to explain to them what we’d already done and you know of course they didn’t like it very much but as I said, ‘Well, you finish your ops you can get a job like this.’ But, and we used to go to the other side of Cambridge and get a load of bombs in a lorry. We used to think it was hilarious in those days. Get a load of bombs and drive them back from Cambridge to Graveley. Oh, my goodness. So I had about, about three months there and then they said, ‘Oh, you’re going back to OTU.’ I said, ‘What on earth for?’ ‘Well,’ they said, ‘You’ve got to get up to date with what you know.’ So I went back to an OTU. I think that was back to Lichfield. And I was there for two or three weeks and then I got posted to another squadron, another OTU and much to my amazement I ended up with three Australian aircrew who hadn’t been on any ops. So of course when I found out I’d got myself another crew with three Australians and the other gunner was a boy I’d known in the Air Cadets in Tonbridge before joining aircrew. And anyway we started our training on Wellingtons and we did about three or four weeks training and they dropped the first, well we, we were told we were going to Japan before, when we started. And then they dropped the first atom bomb but that was only three or four days before they dropped the second one wasn’t it? If you can remember. So anyway they dropped the second one and within two or three days all the war in Japan was finished wasn’t it? And within a fortnight the three Aussies were on their way home because we, they said we don’t want them anymore. So they were all back home after about three or four weeks after that. And then [pause] I can’t remember. Oh yeah. Then they decided because this is sort of nearly the end of ’45 wasn’t it? And they said, ‘Oh, we’re sending you to Cranwell.’ I said, ‘Why the Dickens are we going to Cranwell?’ They said, ‘You can learn to be a teleprinter operator.’ So I said, ‘Right.’ They said, ‘You can get a ground job now. You won’t have to fly anymore.’ So anyway I did this. There was about ten of us. All ex-aircrew learning to use a typewriter. So we had this. I think it’s about seven or eight weeks I think training and to be this teleprinter. And then in the end there was a Scotsman which was, he was about six foot six tall, massive, and another Londoner, flight engineer and we were posted to 19 Group Coastal Command in Plymouth. So goodness gracious me. We went to this place and there was three airmen and of course nearly all the other operators were all WAAFs. About twenty of them, you know and it was Coastal Command. A place called well Mount Wise, or something. Mountbatten, which was in Plymouth Harbour. It’s Coastal Command. Anyway being us, us three men they decided they wouldn’t let us work at night so in the end we ended up only doing about three or four shifts a week because they didn’t want us at night. They wouldn’t have three airmen with the WAAFs at night. I mean, I know there was only probably about four or five WAAFs at night but a dozen or so in the day because there was a whole row of teleprinters. So I was there for just over a year and I think it was about one of the best, well Devonshire weather I’ve ever known. It was beautiful. And what we used to do if we wasn’t on that day we’d go down the road, we’d get on the first bus that came along, pay a shilling and when we got to that shilling we’d get off and walk home. That’s what we did every day. Yeah. It was just something to do. But the weather was just absolutely fantastic. And then I was there for Christmas ’46 and I got, oh God [pause] not laryngitis. What’s the other thing you get in your throat? Oh God. There was something wrong with my throat and the doctor said I’ll give you, no, not penicillin. Yeah penicillin. And of course that really upset me so I had to come off of that. But something else he give me and I’ve never had anything wrong with me throat since that day. You would not believe it. Never had this what it was. Not, laryngitis I think it was. Yeah. I was going to have it done and it didn’t and then he told me, he said, ‘Whatever you do never take — ’ no, it wasn’t paracetamol, it’s Penicillin. He said, ‘Whatever you do never taken penicillin anymore.’ So I never have. In all, I’ve had different things. And so I’ve never taken penicillin anymore. So it doesn’t cure everybody. But whatever the other thing that it was. And then in January we had this horrible fog and that’s when I went to London and got demobbed. Then I had another three weeks paid. Three months paid holiday which was very nice. That’s my life, near enough.
CJ: So what did you do after demob?
PS: Well, I had another mate. He’d, he’d been in the RAF but he didn’t fly. And about June or July we decided, we used to, he got a motorbike and started, got a motorbike and we used to drive around on a motorbike for two or three months. Nothing else much to do. But then we decided to go fruit picking. So of course the middle of Kent there was plenty of apples, pears, plums and I think, I think we did plums and pears I think first and then we went to apple. But we made a fortune because you used to get paid at so much a bushel. Well you could pick a bushel of big apples in ten minutes and then you got so much for it you know. Cor we made some money. We used to make ten bob a day and then go home. Which was a lot of money in 1947. Cor it was wonderful. Course then we had this motorbike and we would sort of do a half a days work and then go to the seaside. We had a wonderful time. And then come to, coming up to Christmas my father had been a male nurse in a mental [unclear] and he said, ‘Why don’t you give it a go?’ So I don’t know if you know, ever heard of Chartham. If you know Canterbury. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s where he’d been. So I went there and got talking to the boss and he found my father had been there before the First War because my father went in the Army as a, well a rifleman. He was a first aid bloke as well. You know, he did it all sort of thing and he got away with it alright but then he got rheumatic fever. That’s the only thing. Which didn’t do him any good, and I say I had three years a mental nurse. That’s where I met my wife. So from there on it was us. But I didn’t mind the work but I just couldn’t be, stand being indoors in the end because quite often you’d be indoors for a whole week. Indoors, you know. Not, not in and out doors but indoors looking after patients, you see. After three years I decided I couldn’t stand anymore so I, I, then we got married and then another friend of mine he rang up. He said, ‘We want a cowman.’ And I thought oh my God. I didn’t know anything about milking cows. So we went to this farm because it had a nice, a nice little bungalow and everything and learned all about milking cows. But then they decided to set up after a while to sell the milk that we produced. Then in the end we used quite often I’d milk the cows, have my breakfast and go and deliver the milk. So we had, and in the end we had three milk rounds and I used to do, sort of this one this week, that one then. Milk it, deliver it and everything else. So we did that for ten years. Well, I know people say, you know farm work and all that sort of thing but it was quite interesting. You know, it was interesting. You know. Say milking. Looking after, looking after the cows, doing all the milking and bottling up and everything and delivering it and keeping everything running. And we made it work too because it was, well it was a big farm because we had our own cows. All outdoors as well and, well they had to be indoors in the winter. But we had ten years there. And then after that another, another friend rung up and he said, ‘We want a baker’s roundsman in Chatham.’ Well, and of course, God what am I letting my insides for?’ But he said, ‘Come and have a look.’ So I did and the pay was about four times I was getting on the farm. I was on this estate for twenty years delivering bread. This estate and another estate. It was alternate days, you know. Then the baker showed up in the end. Then I went to work for BP over the Isle of Grain. I did four or five years there. And then that packed up. That sold up. God, what did I do after that? I can’t remember. I can’t. You know what —
CJ: Coming back to the RAF.
PS: Yeah.
CJ: Did you manage to keep in touch with some of the crew that your flew with? I think —
PS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he and I are the only two left now. The rest are all dead.
CJ: So some of these are Canadian you said are in the crew.
PS: Yeah. That one. That one. That one. Then my navigator he said, ‘We’re coming over to England in the summer.’ I forget, somewhere in the summer. Anyway, we lived, we lived here and he came over. He and his wife came over for four weeks and of course I’d, I had a car so we went about. I looked after him for a week and then they went up to the Midlands somewheres. Somewheres near where that motorbike came from. They went up there three weeks. Then they came back. Then in, I forget when it was but then in 1980 he said, ‘Why don’t you come over? We’ve got a big reunion in Toronto.’ So, oh yeah I managed to get three weeks off from the bakery so he said, so, there was only Margaret and I, so we went to Saskatchewan and they picked us up at Toronto and we went to [pause] oh God. Anyway, we went to this Saskatchewan and we went to this mess. There was five thousand people in a room. Men and women. About three thousand men and women. And it was wonderful. It really was. A big meal. Plenty of people to talk to and you would not believe but one of the people there was the chief of the German night fighters. He was there for a, yeah he was. Cor, he was quite a well-known name but he was a chap, the bloke in charge of the German night fighters. He was there on holiday. And I say that was really good. And then about forty two we went to Canada again for a month’s holiday. And then ’84 we had another big reunion. About, about another, you know five odd thousand. My navigator, he’d got a little, nice big buggy we could all sort of sleep in it if we wanted to, but we didn’t. He took us right across, right across Canada which was absolutely fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyed it. And then we went and stayed with them again. Then my wife’s sister decided to go to America. To her daughter. So in the end we went four weeks to Salt Lake City. And cor it’s a place that is. Believe me. And so we had a, going around there, and we had another in the end he got a sleep van. What do you call it?
CJ: A camper.
PS: Camper. Oh God, my bloody brain. And so we went half way across salt err Grand Canyon. Well, it’s the big Grand Canyon. All up in the mountains, everywhere. Played snowballs in June and all that sort of thing. We had a lovely time again. And soon after they all went and died so we didn’t go anywhere.
CJ: So while you’ve been talking, just for the listener we’ve been looking at a wonderful photograph of you and your crew.
PS: Oh yeah.
CJ: Around a motorbike and sidecar. So you used this when you were on the base did you?
PS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course he, well he got in touch with his friends in, I think it was Birmingham I think, and because he knew they’d be, apparently he’d known them before the war or something. And anyway —
CJ: So on the photograph this is the gentleman sitting actually on the bike.
PS: That’s the navigator.
CJ: Yeah.
PS: The pilot in there as well. We used to get, quite often got four on it. Then we went out to dinner somewhere, you know.
CJ: Yeah. And how did you manage to find the petrol to keep it going when it was so scarce?
PS: Well, I don’t know. We just used to park it behind as I say that’s not our hut, but we had a little hut. We just used to park it behind the hut and every time we went and got it it had petrol in it so it must have made it in the night. Well, it worked alright. And as I say we quite often got four on it no trouble.
CJ: So, so for the listener when they see this photograph online you’re the gentleman in the middle row. Sorry the back row in the middle.
PS: The middle. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s as I say this is the flight engineer, and he was the radio operator. That was the mid-upper and I was the tail gunner and there’s the bomb aimer.
CJ: So coming back to Bomber Command after the war. Do you have any opinions on how Bomber Command were treated after the war?
[pause]
PS: No. Because, because we, well we had a big Bomber Command Society thing. Aircrew Association. And well, right up right up to about a few years ago we were going. But we had over a hundred in Maidstone but they’re nearly all dead now. I’ve got a book in there it’s about eighty odd signatures. Well, not signatures. I used to take our Standard. And there’s eighty odd signatures there from the hundred odd we had. I mean when we used to have dinners and dances we had a hall full. I mean up ‘til last year we probably got four, five, six of us go to a local pub in Maidstone. Yeah. Well, we haven’t been this. Didn’t go. The last six months we haven’t been. But we’ve still got four or five of us, you see. Yeah.
CJ: And have you been able to visit any, view any Lancasters in museums?
PS: Well, as I say I’ve been to [pause] oh golly.
CJ: Duxford is it?
PS: Well, I say Duxford. I’ve been there. And the one in London. What’s the one in London?
CJ: Hendon.
PS: Hendon. I’ve been there. Yeah. Oh, I’ll tell you another one I like is East Kirkby.
CJ: Just Jane.
PS: Pardon?
CJ: Just Jane.
PS: That’s it. Yeah. Well, quite often when we used to have the reunion in Lincoln we used to have the dinner in Lincoln and then we’d go to Ludford for a service and that. But when we went there we used to go to stay with my wife’s sister at Newark and, you know because we could drive home from Lincoln to Newark no trouble. But then we used to go to, on the Monday, always on the Monday we’d go to East Kirkby and spend the day there. Then if I, two or three times I met my wireless operator there. And then this other bloke Rod Moore I think they might have let you know about this thing, he’s there. And we used to spent the day there and I got to know the two brothers. But one died didn’t he?
CJ: The Panton brothers.
PS: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Well, the two. I’ve got a book there signed by them somewheres. By the two brothers and the, and the sister. And I got there one day and he said, ‘Come on,’ so we went over, got in the aircraft, got in the aircraft for about two hours. Just sitting around, you know looking. I got down the rear turret. And then when I had my eighty fifth birthday a lot of my friends, because we had a lot of these, a lot belonged to our aircrew by then. Still. They all put two or three or four quid in a pot and we got enough money to go up to East Kirkby, sit in the turret and go around the airfield. Yeah. Because it’s, I think it was, I think it’s about a hundred and twenty pounds, a hundred and thirty pounds in those days just to ride around the airport. As you probably know. Get four engines going you soon get rid of a couple of gallons of petrol. But we used to go around. I’ve got a photograph somewhere of my daughter because she ran around. She ran all the way around the bloody airfield behind taking photographs of me sitting in the rear turret. Yeah. Cor, she ran some miles that day. But as I say I sat in the back. We got there on this, I think Monday morning and the man who had already signed to sit in the turret didn’t turn up. So I already told them the day before if anything goes wrong I want to get in the turret which I did. But it, it was a .5 turret. I don’t know if you know the difference. You probably do. But, but it wasn’t as good. I had the first .5 turret at Ludford, at 101. The, the boss man he knew two brothers from the local village who were mechanics and they made a .5 turret. It was about two or three inches wider than the old .5 and what was good about it you could just about get two people in it and you could sit on the seat and you’d got no glass in the front. The whole front was clear. You didn’t have to bale out the back. You could bale out head first straight out the, and you didn’t have to have one of these sit ons, well it was but you didn’t have one of the old clip on parachutes. You could have one of these sit on ones and you just sit here like that and if the worst comes to the worst head first straight out the back and you was away. Really super. But the .5 turret at East Kirkby is not the same gun as I had in Ludford because the one I had in Ludford was up here like this. But the one they had in East Kirkby was the guns were in front of you. In the way. And you had a job to get in it because the was the seat was different.
CJ: So when you’re saying a .5 turret for the listener that doesn’t know the difference the original guns were .303.
PS: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. There would be four guns in a normal Lancaster are 303 but when we got the .5s they were bigger guns, bigger ammunition which was the American type like they had in all their Flying Fortresses. They had all .5s. Yeah. It’s quite good actually. They made more noise too.
CJ: How did it feel to be sitting in the turret again?
PS: Yeah. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. Good. When it was going around the airfield it didn’t half go around every time. I don’t know how my daughter kept up because she ran all the way around. Yeah. Yeah. She got some good photographs. But I was going to [pause] there’s my pilot.
CJ: Well, I think we’ve covered everything today, Peter. Thanks ever so much for talking to us today.
PS: Oh, it’s my pleasure.
CJ: For the —
PS: It’s nice to see you. It’s nice to talk.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Peter Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Johnson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASmithAP180103, PSmithAP1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:12:33 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Smith was born in Kent and attended school until he was 14. He started working for a woodwork shop and when the war began, they started building army huts. In 1941 he joined the Air Cadets. He recalls how one Sunday he and a friend saw an aerial dogfight which they watched for two hours. They heard and saw spent ammunition landing on the ground close to them.
In 1942 he attended his RAF medical and was given deferred service. He was called up in March 1943 and attended various training courses to become a rear air gunner. Posted to RAF Lichfield he formed up with his mainly Canadian crew before moving on to an Operational Training Unit flying Whitley’s. At a Heavy Conversion Unit his crew moved to Halifax’s and finally Lancasters. In November 1943 they were posted to RAF Ludford Magna with 101 Squadron. Their first operation took place on 27th January 1944 to Berlin. Peter lists the German towns he was sent to on operations, including Nuremberg in March when the squadron lost seven aircraft. His thirtieth operation was against large guns at Calais. Normally the end of a tour, they were asked to carry out a special duties' operation on the night of 5th June 1944. They flew back and forth between Dover and Paris dropping Window, foil strips, out of the aircraft. It was not until they returned to the station that they were told it was part of the invasion of Europe.
He describes what he did in his spare time and the preparation for operations. Over the thirty-one operations he flew, Peter says that he never had to fire his guns even though he did see some night fighters. Only on one occasion did their aircraft have trouble, when one engine stopped working and there was no power to his rear turret. He describes the various roles he had after completing his tour until he was demobbed in January 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Staffordshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943-11
1944-01-27
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
101 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Normandy deception operations (5/6 June 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lichfield
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Sleap
training
Whitley
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1161/11720/ATilleyF150710.2.mp3
e161f12593f172f41d4f00d0934023e7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tilley, Frank
F Tilley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Tilley (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tilley, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Frank Tilley. The interview is taking place at Mr Tilley’s home in Hitchin, Hertfordshire on the 10th of July 2015. The initial part of this interview covers Mr Tilley’s story of two 617 Squadron attacks on the battleship Tirpitz.
FT: Of the operation beginning we were briefed for some three hours at Woodhall Spa. Followed by a casual flight lasting about two hours to Lossiemouth which would be our advanced base. We, in fact were allocated not Lossiemouth but Milltown which is about ten miles further along the east. The Milltown was a fairly scrappy temporary aerodrome I would imagine. I think it had one runway which headed straight out to the North Sea and actually terminated at the water’s edge. The third attempt, which was our second, took place on the 12th of November. So that once again, the day before — the 11th of November we were awake fairly early. An early morning briefing. Three hours at Woodhall Spa. We again flew to Milltown where we were ensconced and the aircraft were obviously completely re-fuelled and topped everything up to the last gallon sort of thing. And meanwhile we attended the final briefing which took place at Lossiemouth. RAF Lossiemouth. The briefing was exactly similar to all of the other briefings where the target’s identity, the target is identified. There’s maps on the wall. I think the most important part of any briefing is for the navigators. In particular with the Tirpitz problem. The route had to be carefully designed to avoid us getting trapped by the German radar. And the object was to get us as close to the target as possible without being identified. Now, this briefing ended with the, ‘Good luck, chaps,’ as usual. And it was then that they mentioned that the Germans had, since the second attempt, had moved two squadrons of Messerschmitts to Bardufoss which is about forty miles from the Tirpitz. We then had our legendary flying meal of egg, bacon and chips and generally wasted our time I suppose chatting away there until the, gone midnight. Around about 1 o’clock in the morning we were summoned to the coaches to take us the ten miles to Milltown. When we arrived at Milltown it was pitch dark night. Absolutely freezing cold. To the extent that when we arrived at our aircraft it was being sprayed with de-icing fluid along the wings to remove the frost which was rapidly forming. Joppy and I and the rest of the crew boarded the aircraft. There were numerous checks that we had to take before starting the engines as all the other members of the crew did their particular duties as far as preparation were concerned. Now, around about I suppose 2.30 in the morning of the 12th Joppy and I would have started the engines and gradually warmed them up. Meanwhile continuing to do our engine checks and other auxiliary types of checks that we have to do. At 3 o’clock we were ready to take off and taxied our way to the beginning of the runway. Just near the, the colloquially called the caravan. From which one, when they were ready they would give you a green aldis light. Joppy and I would open up the throttles to full power. Three thousand revs per minute. Release the brakes. And this aircraft, now weighing some ten thousand pounds over the, all up weight, trundled down the runway into the North Sea. At about ninety five knots we were running short of runway quite rapidly. Joppy hauled the aircraft into the air and we were airborne. It was a question of wheels up. Later on, flaps up. I adjusted the throttles to the proper cruising level. Maximum fuel economy. And roughly at about six hundred feet over the North Sea we made our way northwards. Heading out over the North Sea, over the Moray Firth and kept the Shetlands on our port side. And some short distance past the Shetlands the Gee box navigating equipment no longer functioned because it was designed for the whole of Europe. Thus the navigator’s job began, began to get rather difficult. He had to navigate using what we called dead reckoning by taking astro shots from stars and obtaining wind drift which is a sort of combination between the navigator and the guy in the rear turret. And myself I, I had to go down, open the door at the back of the aircraft and when asked I tossed out a flame float which the rear gunner would then sight his guns on the flame float and he was able to read a protractor reading from the rim of his turret. This would be relayed on the intercom to Basil, the navigator. Thus we were able to keep on track and navigate where exactly we were. At something like sixty four degrees north, we turned to starboard heading straight into Norway. We now had to start climbing to ensure we got over the Norwegian Alps of some five thousand feet. We flew into Norway, over the Alps and continued in that direction until we entered Sweden. Into Sweden we then turned port again and headed north. All the way up Sweden keeping as low as poss, as the territory would enable. Would allow. Thus we eventually reached the rendezvous point which was a long narrow lake in Sweden. When we arrived there we realised that the rest of the eighteen members of the squadron were gathering and circling which was quite remarkable when you think they all arrived there on dead reckoning within about fifteen minutes of each other. At a, a couple of green verey cartridges shot out from the Wing Commander Tait’s aircraft, told us to follow him towards the Tirpitz. The attack was now beginning. He carried on at low level and then at the correct time the navigator would indicate to Joppy, the pilot and we began climbing to our allocated bombing height which in our case was fifteen thousand two hundred feet. Now, at this point we reached our altitude and Lofty, the New Zealand bomb aimer, alerted us that he could see the Tirpitz in the dim distance some thirty odd miles away. And he relished the idea of sighting it and doing a bombing run at that particular angle. The rest of the squadron appeared to be veering off to starboard. They obviously had a different track. Lofty kept us on this track for several minutes as we got closer and closer to the Tirpitz. The indications from his bombsight would tell the pilot whether to move left, right or carry on this particular course. My job was to control the aircraft’s speed as precisely as possible and also make certain that the altitude was steady as well. We were not going down or up but everything had to be made exactly correct. And this carries on until the bomb automatically released. This is the automatic stabilised bombsight. By now the Germans had decided to welcome us. The anti-aircraft guns were busy shooting up anti-aircraft shells to us which were bursting just in front of the aircraft. Or it seemed like just in front but they had our height absolutely dead right. Remarkable really. And, so we had to press on regardless of the flak until the bomb was released. And even then we still have to remain exactly the same level and same speed while the automatic cameras photographed the descent of the bomb. The five and a half tonne Tallboy armour piercing bomb. Eventually we were able to close the bomb doors which switched off the camera and thankfully dived away out of the flak. We dived down and kept diving down to reduce our height. Headed back down south over the North Sea and levelled out at something like six hundred feet again. And I began re-tuning the engines and adjusting the throttles for maximum fuel economy. In other words our maximum cruising levels. At this point I was somewhat perturbed to find that the port outer, the engine was not, not responding to the movements of the throttle. At fifteen thousand three hundred feet it was obviously set at something like plus seven boost which is supercharged effect. There it was down at sea level still running at plus seven boost which would be consuming fuel at a fair, a fair rate. Quite unnecessary for us. And so we had to make our way back to the British Isles using only three engines. This meant the aircraft does not, does not fly quite so efficiently. And when we got near the British Isles, near the Shetlands in fact, I alerted the pilot that we were running very short of fuel and I did not think we would be able to reach Lossiemouth. Not safely anyhow. Thus the pilot, Joppy, he called up the airfield at Sumburgh Head, Shetlands, asking permission to land. Now, the runway there was not designed for four engine bombers. It was just about adequate for the light aircraft that were using it for Fleet Air Arm purposes etcetera. And we made attempt to land on three engines. We overshot for the first one. We came in too high so it was a matter of opening up the throttles to full power again. Flaps half way up. And we regained our height. Soared over some rising ground which is just south of the Sumburgh Head. Did another circuit and this time Joppy made a perfect landing on the three engines and we stopped just nicely at the end of the runway. We piled out of course. The aircraft was shunted to the fuelling depot where the tanks were topped up for us and the local, local people at the Sumburgh were excellent. They welcomed us with open arms. Told us of the success of the sinking of the Tirpitz and provided us with welcome coffee and sandwiches. While this was going on I decided I’d have a go at repairing the link that was obviously broken to the port outer engine. I referred to the engineering officer for some trestles but trestles did not exist at Lossiemouth. They weren’t designed for four engine bombers. So I borrowed only the next best thing which was a ladder. I removed the engine cowling which is on the port side of the engine and lo and behold there was this link just dangling there. For the life of me, after all these years I cannot remember the detail of how I did it but somehow or other I managed to reconnect the throttle link with Joppy back in the cockpit and responding to my, my calls. We, he exercised the throttle just to test it out and yes it was okay. So, we now had four good Merlin engines once more. I replaced the cowling. We said our goodbyes. We restarted the engines from the internal batteries and, and off we went. And as we had sufficient fuel we decided to fly straight down to our base at Woodhall Spa where we were debriefed and given our legendary returned flying meal of which we were very grateful. We were. We were, the bomb aimer, Lofty, he said, ‘Do you know what lads?’ He said, ‘I’ve just worked it out. We’ve been on our feet non-stop for thirty six hours.’ Well, we were very very tired but quite elated that at last we’d sunk old Churchill’s beast for him. And that’s really the end of my Tirpitz story.
[recording paused]
FT: The problem the squadron had to solve for this attack was one of getting there and back. Now, if you took a straight line from Lossiemouth to the Tirpitz and back you could probably do it. You were just about two thousand one hundred miles. But like I mentioned earlier we had to take careful action to avoid radar which meant an indirect route in fact. As you know which we went into Sweden and then flew north. So, this added quite a few air miles to the problem. And there would be insufficient fuel. When you think a Lancaster basically carries two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons of fuel and a Lancaster, fully loaded performs about one point one mile per gallon. So, there you have it. We really, the fuel situation basically would be too marginal. Thus we needed to take action. Firstly, extra fuel. They removed the rest bed behind the rear spar. I beg your pardon, behind the front spar. Between the two spars it was. They removed the rest bed which also contained the oxygen bottles. There were twelve oxygen bottles normally. They removed eleven. Left us just one. In that space they installed a Wellington tank of some two hundred gallons. It was a long, rectangular shape. And on top of that a Mosquito tank of fifty gallons. Now, this meant we had added weight. So, you now have to go and start reducing weight. Firstly, they removed the entire mid-upper turret. Guns, turret, the lot and blanked in the space in the roof of the aircraft. They removed the armour plate from behind the pilot’s seat. They took out the guns from the front turret and reduced the ammunition for the rear turret down to some four hundred rounds. Thus the, the sort of equilibrium was kind of re-established. While the aircraft were away at the maintenance unit having these modifications carried out they removed the standard Merlin engines and replaced them with Merlin 24s. The most powerful engine available at the time. They also fitted paddle bladed propellers which theoretically enables the engine power to be used in the form of additional thrust. Now, the, just a word about the added fuel tanks. This entailed quite a lot of what you might call amateur plumbing. You can just imagine connecting two extra tanks and feeding them into the standard fuel system of the Lancaster with various stop cocks available. Thus the job of the flight engineer was somewhat enhanced because we had to juggle with the pumps to pump the fuel around, keep the aircraft balanced and make certain that the engines were not starved of fuel at any point in time. The, I must say that despite the joints being perfectly sound you cannot stop the odour from that hundred octane from leaking out. And the aircraft smelled quite strongly of hundred octane which is rather unpleasant. Especially when you’re living with it for some thirteen hours. And if there was a spark heaven knows what would have happened. Or if we’d been attacked and there was a tracer shell, we’d have gone up in flames in no time at all. But I always felt a bit apprehensive before we, before a trip but I suppose that was just me. Some guys carried it off as if they were going to a Christmas party. I don’t remember us mentioning it on the aircraft. I mean you would have thought we would have been chatting but we weren’t.
AP: Right.
FT: It was very quiet. It’s like that really. You get on with your own job and concentrate like hell on what you’re supposed to be doing and there was no loose chat or anything like that. But, well that’s the way we were anyway. So, we did our, you’d think it would have been the obvious thing to do to turn right but we turned left. We went to port and swung right around in an arc and that’s when I was able to look out when we completed the arc, to the port side. And I just caught the last glimpse of the Tirpitz and she seemed to be starting to list. And then it was full power and dive down and get the hell out of here because, well naturally, we thought the fighters were waiting for us. But that’s a miracle. How we, how we’re still here I don’t know. I don’t think many of us would have got back.
AP: No.
FT: Remember this is daylight. And if a Lancaster gets attacked by a Messerschmitt in daylight there’s only one winner and it’s not the Lancaster. I mean, our guns were .303. They were like peashooters and the range was about a hundred yards. Well, the Germans had cannons. And their range was three hundred yards. It’s a well-known fact. I mean we were outgunned right, all the time. We had, we had no real defences. Not the Lancaster.
AP: So —
FT: I think really, now I’m at this age I think about how lucky we were. Perhaps more often than we did when I was twenty one. We never even mentioned it really. We just did our job. We landed back in, eventually at Woodhall Spa. Got debriefed. And then, as you probably heard we got thirty six hours leave and Sir Archibald Sinclair turned up and did his stuff. And Basil and I went to my place, I lived in North London and spent the night with me and we went to the theatre in the evening.
AP: Did you —
[recording paused]
AP: Ok. So, we’re ready to go. This is coming back.
FT: Ok.
AP: Yeah. This is the raid on Pölitz on the way back.
FT: 21st of December.
AP: 21st of December 1944.
FT: That’s it. Well, the weather. You couldn’t design worse weather. Lincolnshire, 21st of December 1944. We were briefed to go to Pölitz which is near Stettin and bomb the oil refineries. And our bomb aimer, Lofty Hebbard was off sick but there was a flight lieutenant bomb aimer who needed one more operation to complete his double tour. Forty five trips. And he, he asked Joppy if he would be, he could be Joppy’s bomb aimer. Well we were quite honoured to be, Skip- if you like, accompanied by such a veteran bomb aimer. But the thing, the briefing was done, we boarded the aircraft. I think it was drizzling with rain and very, very limited visibility and I think we spent about two hours in the aircraft waiting for the signal to taxi out to take off and it was cancelled. We went back to the flights, what we called the flights, again. De-kitted ourselves. A couple of hours later it was back on. So, out we trooped again on to the buses to our aircraft. Got everything revved up. This time away we went. We took off in almost blackness. It was filthy weather and visibility was really down but we took off and the journey to Pölitz was virtually uneventful. We did our bombing run, as far as I’m aware quite satisfactorily and headed for home. Now, I believe that on the way home some of the aircraft could pick up radio messages to say that if there were any doubts in their minds they could divert to Prestwick in Scotland if they had sufficient fuel. I didn’t think we did have enough fuel so we headed back to Lincolnshire. We looked at Woodhall Spa and the fog was absolutely dense and thick. So we headed for Ludford Magna nearby. There was what they called a FIDO installation whereby the runways are transversed with burning fuel which lifts the fog and you fly into a sort of tunnel of clear air. Unfortunately, when we called up for permission to land so were dozens of others doing the same thing. We were not even sure whether our, our message had been received. There was certainly no response. We, we were zooming around. Just cruising around waiting to make some progress towards a landing when there was a tremendous bang on the left hand side of the aircraft. I looked out to port side and in time to see the port wing just outside of the port outer folding up to a vertical position. Meanwhile the gauges, engine gauges were dancing around. The needles were dancing around and the skipper was saying, ‘Full power.’ He didn’t need to say it either. I’d already tried it and we were quite unable to get any response from the aircraft at all. So Joppy started calling base saying, ‘T Tare crashing. T Tare crashing.’ And Joppy said to all of us, the crew, ‘Ditching stations. Ditching stations.’ Now, ditching station means that you then leave your position you’re normally at. You dive over the front spar and take up what they call a crash position. Well, the thing happened such a long while ago and it was so horrible that I can only remember unplugging my headset and presumably diving over the front spar. I don’t even remember that. Soon after that, or it must have been almost immediately we, we hit the ground and the aircraft going from, what shall we say a hundred and eighty knots down to zero certainly puts a bit of a strain on things. And when I came around I found I was fastened to the floor. And I realised that my parachute harness somehow had got wedged into something on the floor. But I was able to release myself by turning the release mechanism on the parachute harness and punch the big disk and got free. I sort of dragged myself to my feet and then sort of fell back down again. I realised that my right leg was broken. I saw Basil to the left of me. I must, there must have been some light. I think what it was, the fuel, the fuel lines which ran across, laterally across the front, rear of the front spar had obviously been fractured or made to leak and they’d ignited. So there was burning fuel across the floor which made us, if you like, need to get out of the wretched place. And I said, I saw Basil holding his head and shouted to him, ‘Wake up Basil. Let’s get the hell out of here.’ And that was the last time I saw him for a while because I then, somehow or other, hopped, and it’s funny really. In the training, my escape, my escape hatch was just above the wireless operator’s position. Just to the rear of the astrodome. And when I think of it now I must have been daft because I could have easily dived over the rear spar, made my way backwards to the main door. Instead of which I reached up, released this hatch and hauled myself up on my arms and then extricated myself from the aircraft by falling over backwards down to the ground. Now, imagining that the aircraft was about to blow up with all these fuel, fuel leaks all blazing away there like blow lamps and I crawled away to a sort of safe distance on this muddy field. Well, after a while Basil, who’d got out okay from the rear door, he had, bless his heart, rushed around to the front and extricated Joppy, the pilot who was, whose legs were badly injured. They’d been caught up in the rudder pedals and he had multiple fractures of both legs. So, Basil did a stirling job in carrying Joppy to a safe place. Now, a little while later the wireless operator, how, that was Cookie, Gordon Cooke, how he got out I shall never know but I presume he just did what was sensible. Went over the rear spar and out through the door. Now, the mid-upper gunner was Bob Yates but since he had no turret because the aircraft was still in the same uniform as when we did the Tirpitz there was no mid-upper turret for him but I suppose Bob wanted to clock up another operation on his logbook so he just came as a passenger. And I never did see him. I don’t know what happened to him but he was dead I’m afraid. And then, I think I mentioned about Cookie. Cookie found me lying on the ground. Cookie was able to walk but he’d got a rather nasty burn on his back of his hand and he’d also bruised his innards from when he’d impacted on his radio set. So, he was a little bit incoherent. That accounted for us two anyway. The dreadful tragedy is that this long-serving, two tour Flight Lieutenant Arthur Walker was killed instantly I should think because he was down in the bomb bay in the bomb aimers compartment unfortunately. He should not have been there. He should have taken up ditching station. The rear gunner, Tommy Thompson survived with a fractured back. And we then found ourselves eventually in hospital. And by the time I recovered from my injuries and went to convalescent the war in Europe was over. I went back to the squadron and was told that I could be made redundant because they didn’t need me anymore. And I then went into the waiting for discharge syndrome. Which was pretty boring. And there ends my career. Well I, my RAF career was fairly short and the operational career was even shorter. So I’ve got nothing to be very proud of but when I look back I must say I, I feel so thankful that I got through the war. There was several, several times when we could have got, got killed and, but we didn’t and we got through it. And for that I’m very very thankful but also quite glad that I only did a little bit but what I did they’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Tilley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATilleyF150710
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:36:23 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Tilley was a flight engineer with 617 Squadron. He took part in the operation to sink the Tirpitz. He explains his flights and briefings before the operation at Woodhall Spa, Milltown and Lossiemouth. On their return from sinking the Tirpirtz, they had an engine problem affecting the power and fuel consumption. As they were perilously short on fuel they diverted to RAF Sumburgh. There Frank was able to repair the aircraft and they returned to Woodhall Spa. The bomb aimer proudly proclaimed to the crew that at that point they had been on their feet for thirty six straight hours. Frank was returning from an operation on Pölitz in December 1944. when they were again perilously low on fuel but found Woodhall Spa was fogged in so they had to try Ludford Magna which had FIDO. While waiting for permission to land there was a loud bang and one wing collapsed. After the resulting crash Frank managed to get out of the aircraft with a broken leg. The navigator was able to rescue the pilot whose legs were badly damaged. Two of the crew were killed in the crash.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Norway
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Norway--Tromsø
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Scotland--Shetland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-12
617 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
bombing
crash
FIDO
flight engineer
fuelling
Gee
Lancaster
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Milltown
RAF Sumburgh
RAF Woodhall Spa
target photograph
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2468/11768/AWhymarkR171103.mp3
d15b6bbb5d4a4b59a1d617d0068cd018
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whymark, Jack
John Percy Whymark
Description
An account of the resource
X items. <br /><br />The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Jack Whymark DSO DFC (1920 -1945, 616289, 53481 Royal Air Force) and contains a<span>n oral history with his son, Robert Whymark. </span><br /><br />He flew operations as an air gunner with 103 Squadron and was killed 04 October 1945 during Operation Dodge. <br /><br />The collection was donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Graham Thurlow and Robert Whymark and catalogued by Lynn Corrigan. <br /><br /><span>Additional information on Jack Whymark is available via the </span><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/230288/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-03
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whymark, JP
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
[his log book, correspondence, documents, objects and photographs].
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RM: Tactical.
JM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin and the interviewee is Mr Robert Whymark. And the interview is taking place at Mr Whymark’s home in Little Haywood in Staffordshire on the 3rd of November 2017. Robert, could you please tell us a little bit about your background and your awareness of your late father’s service.
RW: Right. Thank you, Julian. Very firstly my thanks to the IBCC for this opportunity and all the volunteers that are doing the work. I’m Bob Whymark. Only son of Jack, or John as he was christened. He was also known as Johnny. Flight Lieutenant John Percy, but we don’t talk about that, Whymark DSO DFC RAF. He was an air gunner. Robert is a name slightly out of the family tradition. I’m not sure where that come from. I don’t know of any others but the surname is originally Breton I’m told. We could claim 1066 and all that if we did the connection. There was a Robert de Whymark who was the Sheriff of Southend in 1086. They say everybody’s descended from a royal so we might be Harold the III’s lot. He was a big friend of William the Conqueror. However, more realistically we are immediately down from a load of farm labourers in Norfolk and Essex. I’ve gone back about mid-1700s. My dad’s father went to school with my other gran, my mother’s mother in the1890s in the village. My dad was born 10th of January 1920 in Grays, Essex. He had a sister nine years younger. He seems to have been quite bright because he got a scholarship to Palmer’s Boys College for secondary education. His first job was at the Bata Shoe Factory in Tilbury which was seven miles each way on a push bike. Rain or shine. Character building as we called it. He joined the Royal Artillery Territorials when he was fifteen, 1935 to ’38. And then he went into the Air Force in October of ’38 as a ground crew mechanic armourer. He went to St Athan for a mech’s course. I followed twenty-six years later in 1964. His first posting was 17 Squadron Hurricanes at Debden and Martlesham Heath. He was also on the Allied Air Strike Force in North West France, Le Mans, Channel Islands. The same time as Dunkirk was going on. He had to burn the Hurricanes as they French wouldn’t give us any fuel. He was evacuated in July 1940 and went air gunner for safety reasons as he told my mother. He’d gone to school with my mother. They had boys and girls separate schools with a fence between them of course. His best friend was somebody called Mervyn who married Eve who was my wife- my mother’s best friend. There’s more on that at the end of this tale. So, he went aircrew. Evanton in the Cromarty Firth was an air gunner’s training place and Salisbury Plain. There were two areas there. Twenty-four hours of flying time later he was put on first tour with 149 Squadron at RAF Mildenhall. December ’40 to April ’41. He was a Wellington rear gunner. He did fifteen ops from December to March over Europe. The first five all ended in some sort of tears. One with two crash landings, one shot up by anti-aircraft fire and two diversions for fuel. Then there was an outbreak of peace until operation number fifteen over Cologne where they were coned in searchlights for six minutes. I spoke to a guy who’d been coned at twenty thousand feet for about four and he said he’d never felt so helpless in all his life. After that 148 Squadron was formed in Kibrit which is on the Suez Canal. They also went to Malta. This again was on Wellingtons. April to September ’41, he did two hundred hours for a tour so that ended up as thirty-nine ops. He did twenty-four ops in North Africa. A lot of Benghazi’s and Malta in the thick of their bombing. They were actually bombed by a Junkers 88 on landing and ran off into the quarry which snapped the Wellington in half. People who know how they are built, which is rather like the Forth Bridge know that was quite an achievement. They also discovered when they got back one time that a shell had gone through the fuselage side to side. Didn’t explode of course. Nobody noticed. He then came home by troop ship from Suez, stopping off at Aden, Durban and Trinidad. He then had about two hundred hours of instructing duties at RAF Manby and West Freugh near Stranraer February ‘42 until October ’43. This was while the Battle of Berlin was on so he may have been rested from that or else I wouldn’t have been here. He did have one off operation mid-way November ’42. They used to take training troops and boost up the number of crews for some raids. He was detached to RAF Syerston, 106 Squadron. There was an American pilot who’d come up through Canada and over, Joe [Curtin?] He had a DFC from his first op which was while he was on pilot training. They’d been hit by a phosphorous shell in the cockpit and it blinded him for a while. The flight engineer kept it going and then he landed it. He got another DFC later on before he was killed. This was Guy Gibson’s squadron before the Dam Busters. Their op was to Danzig. Or Gdansk Harbour. It was ten hours fifty-five minutes in November of ’42 as a rear gunner. He went into Leconfield for fuel. So, it was fairly tight because it was only twenty minutes hop over to Syerston, between Newark and Nottingham. Back to West Freugh. Promoted to warrant officer and then at the end of that was commissioned. His second tour was from February ’44 to May ’44. Quite quick. 10 squadron- 101 squadron, sorry. RAF Ludford or Mudford as it was called, Magna. He did twenty ops in less than three months. The last one was his number sixty, the night I was born, 20th of May ‘44. He got a DFC for this tour. The first one was to Leipzig and there were seventy-nine aircraft missing which is about three hundred and fifty-three men, I think. No. Four hundred and fifty-three, I beg your pardon. He then flew in DV290 Lancaster five times. Once to Berlin, seventy-three aircraft were lost then which is four hundred and seventy-five people. The same, same as Afghanistan over fifteen years. Now, while those deaths were obviously terrible it does give a perceptive. Four hundred and seventy-five in less than eight hours. The Nuremberg raid — he should have been killed twice on that — ninety-seven aircraft were lost including the photo Mosquito the next day, plus eleven that crashed in UK on recovery. So, about six hundred and fifty people there. He’d flown in DV290 so many times he wrote it down again for that raid. It crashed at Welford near Newbury. They were all killed. Over the target they were nearly hit by a Halifax on its bombing run. He had to side slip. He also had a do at Aulnoy which was a railway yards in North East France. They were coned for nine minutes at six thousand feet with, “accurate flak” as he put it. A night fighter pilot got seven aircraft in two sessions there. He was cruising the searchlights. When the ack-ack stopped our crews knew that night fighters would come in. He must have been down refuelling when they were in the lights. Nobody knows how they got away with that. Another tactic the night fighters did was to attack the mid-upper gunner first as he couldn’t help the rear gunner. They did say that the rear gunner was the loneliest job in the aircraft, and I’m sure it was, but the mid-upper wasn’t that mid, it was quite well back and he could fire backwards. So, they took him out first if they could. The only time he’s recorded attacking anything was at over Schweinfurt where they were attacked by a Junkers 88. He said he fired three hundred and eighty rounds and hits on the fuselage. He didn’t claim anything and they were damaged by flak. He then did a gunnery leader’s course. And then third tour, which nobody could make you do, was from September ’44 to October ’45. That was on 103 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds. The main runway is now the slip road up to the Humber Bridge. It’s almost all Severn Trent Water. A heavy gravel type company operates on the main field and there’s a big industrial estate. One hangar is left. The big one. They can’t get that down. He was a mid-upper gunner on all of these trips. He was gunnery leader so he didn’t have a dedicated crew but was still busy. He started daylight ops then as well. He did a few Manna, Exodus and Dodge operations. That was dropping food to the Dutch, Exodus was re-pat of prisoners of war and Dodge was bringing people back from Italy. He did eighty-one ops but as he was grounded in January by the big boss he didn’t record all of them. Two or three veterans I’ve spoken to have said he was probably up to ninety-five or ninety-seven. His DSO citation says that he flew with weak or disturbed crews. Not a good idea I don’t think. There was a Canadian crew. [ Sachs?] was his name. It doesn’t say whether they were weak or not but he flew with him six times on the trot. Then he changed crews and they both went off to Dessau near Berlin and Sachs was shot down. His DSO for this tour was one of eight hundred and seventy to the RAF. As he was not a captain it was very rare, if not unique for a flight lieutenant to get that medal. Probably the leadership element came from his appointment as gunnery leader. He was then killed October, yeah October the 4th of 1945. This was a Dodge operation. He and the pilot were going mental doing admin, the pilot said. I’ve got a letter from him to his nephew. They picked up nineteen women passengers at Glatton or Honington, Peterborough Airport now. It was a filthy night. Many aircraft turned back to Istres, Marseilles, as did they after an electric storm and engine trouble, they radioed. I’ve spoken to crew members on this operation and they confirmed the weather. I’ve spoken to the navigator of the other aircraft that was with them and they were the last to talk to the aircraft. They were posted missing. Nothing was ever found. Six crew, seventeen ATS and two nurses were lost. A week before, twenty-five passengers, male, had been, went missing. Same area — plus a crew of six of course — same weather conditions. And a month later the same numbers. So, three Lancasters, ninety odd people all vanished within six weeks. No trace of any of them ever found. One of the girls was a Lance Corporal May Mann. She was engaged to a Warrant Officer Basil Henderson who was on General Alexander’s staff. And this is where Mervyn comes back in. He was waiting in Naples, Pomigliano for my dad. Basil was waiting for his fiancé. Basil had been the filter warrant officer for General Alexander’s staff and Mervyn had spent the whole of the North African Campaign trying to get past him. Basil eventually met my mother through correspondence over this accident and they got married in 1948. I was four. I remember Mervyn turning up, took one look at Basil, he spoke just like Lionel Jeffries, and he said, ‘Oh gawd,’ he said, ‘I don’t suppose you’d let me in here either.’ That’s my first memory. That’s the family link if you like. Basil died in 2008, my mother in 2014. My dad of course, when he was twenty-five. He would have been ninety-eight in January. I’ve been through his logbook, I think he should have been killed about thirty-seven times properly. All raids were difficult, in fact even flying was because of crude navigation equipment — not the navigators — technical problems, maintenance was difficult, weather, and they used to say, lastly, the enemy. But he had some scrapes and lucky escapes by changing crews or aircraft or what have you. They say that for every one hundred aircrew, fifty-one were killed on ops, nine were killed in UK training type crashes, three were seriously injured, twelve were POWs, twenty-four survived. Now, if you’re very sad you’ll have totted that up to ninety-nine. I can only assume that the one spare bloke went AWOL or something like that. However, that’s the basics of his story. I — all I know is that I have no memories of him. Luckily, he met me. I know many people who were killed, their fathers were killed before they were born etcetera. So, we had a little bit more than they did.
JM: Thank you. Thank you very much.
RW: Alright. That was —
JM: Was, was your decision to join the air force in any way influenced by your father’s career?
RW: Yes. About fifty percent. I was at grammar school. I did two years in the fifth form to achieve four GCSEs. Mainly because of these guitars we’ve been talking about and I was trying to be Eddie Cochrane really, and I missed any sort of technical training. I was too old for an apprenticeship. I had a couple of years at the telephone manager’s office, telephone engineering, and then went in the Air Force as much for the education as my dad. But certainly, that was that. My stepfather had no problems about talking to me about it. He said — I remember him when I was four saying to me, ‘I want to marry your mother but I’m not going to make you change your name because of your dad.’ Well, I didn’t know anything about him then of course. But I found out later on. Mervyn, my dad’s best friend from school was a big help. He tidied up some puzzlement I had about this last accident because my mother had the idea that my dad had been pulled out of bed because somebody had broken their leg playing football or something. Well, he’d obviously had time to arrange it. In fact, they were all up at Brigg on the Monday. On the weekend before they had a big dance, probably for VJ-Day. She was up in Brigg, stayed probably at the White Hart. They all piled off back on Monday morning. He telephoned her to say that he’d be down on the Saturday. Of course, they took off on Wednesday, crashed on Thursday morning. The pilot was a big friend of his. He’d just been picked to be Bomber Harris’ personal pilot and he’d done some — he’d got a lot of hours but there’s not much about him, so I don’t know what he was up to. He may have been slightly clandestine. He’d written a letter to his family, I think they were in Leeds, and he said, ‘We’re going mad, Jack and I, so, we’re off to Naples’, he said, ‘I’ll see you on Saturday for my great coat.’ Right, he had a very young brother who didn’t have any kids ‘til he was about thirty-seven. So, he had a nephew of the pilot who’s the same age as some of my kids. He’s about fifty now. And all he knew was, his uncle — he thought he flew Lancasters, and he found the 103 site so he wrote to David Fell, the historian then. He passed it all to me and we emailed and I said, ‘Your uncle’s service number was —’ this that and the other. And it was weird talking to this lad. That I knew more about his uncle than he did. Now, we’d been brought up in just south of Middlesbrough because Basil was a Durham lad originally. He was living down in Harold Wood at this — during the war. ,He moved back up north. I said, ‘Where are you?’ to this nephew of Jeff Taylor’s, the pilot. And he said, ‘Oh. We’re in Thirsk.’ Which was about eight miles from where we were living. And he came over one Christmas Day and he had a crew photo and this letter. It’s a bit poignant. And I helped him a lot I’m glad to say. I’ve got a pile of research from all the veterans on 103 and other historical branches. They had my dad down as second pilot in one letter. So, I queried that, and they said, ‘Oh, he may have been in the bomb aimer position,’ because this last — these Dodge ops were part of bringing back the 8th Army who were about to mutiny. It was called Dodge because some cretin at Air Ministry decided they’d dodged D-Day by daring to be overseas for six years all through North Africa. I hope he was —had it explained to, you know. So, that’s what they were doing there.
JM: So, the nurses that were on board. The women that were on board. Do you know what they, what they were doing? What was their role?
RW: Seventeen were in the ATS. Army auxiliary.
JM: Territorials.
RW: Territorial girls. They were sort of secretarial I believe. And drivers maybe. They were all — they’d been right through the North Africa Campaign from Tunisia right through. My stepfather was at Dunkirk. He got off the last ship from a jetty. Didn’t have to do any wading out. Because he was a Durham lad it upset him because the Durham Light Infantry were left as a rear guard. He wouldn’t talk about that. I persuaded him to give me his medals to get mounted and we found he’d been mentioned in despatches three times. Which was — he was in the Supply Corps.
JM: Very unusual.
RW: So, that was one down from a decoration frankly and so on, but he was well thought of. He didn’t get back from Italy until 1946. They lived in Warwick Road opposite Earl’s Court and we moved. That was my first sort of basic memory is up from Chadwell.
JM: Can I —
RW: Yeah.
JM: For the tape. Can I just clarify, my understanding is that on occasions the Lancasters might well be full of Italian POWs going home, and when they got to Bari or to Pomigliano then there would be British servicemen coming back to the UK.
RW: Yes.
JM: And it was this route that these ladies were on when the aeroplane went down. It was the return journey.
RW: No. Going.
JM: They were going.
RW: Going.
JM: Right. So, they were going out to Italy.
RW: Yeah. It has been put in some research that was, not stolen from me, but passed on without my knowledge. I corresponded with a Canadian guy who’d been at Elsham in ’42 and he wanted to know if anybody knew anything of that era. I said, ‘Well, I don’t but you might be able to help me.’ Told him that story briefly and he crossed it over that we were coming back. They were coming back.
JM: That’s fine.
RW: But they were actually going out.
JM: Yes.
RW: Now, the army I’m convinced had lost these girls. They’d been up to Liverpool twice on, for a troopship which would have had to come right out around the outside of Ireland because of the mine fields that were still about. They weren’t reported missing ‘til this troopship docked a fortnight later. The army would not release any information. Basil, on the staff of General Alexander couldn’t find anything out. And his — this girl’s mother, Mrs Mann, she put an advert in the paper and my mother was told about that so they corresponded. I’ve got a lovely letter from Mrs Mann about this and she’s saying ‘We couldn’t find anything out. We’ve written to everybody.’ And my mother was able to put her in the picture immediately. In fact, this Mrs Mann was more — as — concerned about my mother losing her husband of course. And so on. They were living near Harold Wood.
JM: Another aspect of it which is interesting and I don’t understand clearly is we are now in peacetime —
RW: Yes.
JM: It’s the October of 1945. The war has been over some months and yet the Lancasters were still carrying gunners. Why was this? Because you would have thought that had they not had those there would have had room for more passengers.
RW: Yeah. I’m not — I don’t think they’d removed the guns but that wouldn’t have affected the number of passengers. My dad was basically doing admin. I think he was virtually on a jolly as we call it.
JM: Right.
RW: Hence this bomb aimer’s position. Crowd control or what. I’ve seen how they load up the Lanc for that when I was instructing at Cosford. They’ve got a museum and there’s a big clump of them in the middle and then they go front to back for weight and balance. So, fifteen was in the bomb aimers position. It would be a cosy little fit. Sixteen was right at the back by the toilet you know. Which was no fun. There were nineteen passengers. So, there was a number fifteen. So, it’s nineteen to one whether my dad was sitting next to the, this ATS corporal, my stepfather’s fiancé. Which would have been a bit spooky.
JM: Yeah.
RW: Her middle name, funnily enough, was Eleanor. Which my stepfather said he never knew. He had her shoe brushes as a souvenir which was what you used to do. My mother was Eileen and my dad called her Eileena. And he always said that if he knew he was going in he’d shout her name out. Now, she says that on the day, Thursday morning, she sat upright in bed thinking she’d heard his voice. And then they got a phone call that night from a friend of his at Elsham. He said, ‘Look, they’ve gone missing. I’ve asked them not to send this awful telegram,’ which they did. He said, ‘I’ll come and see you. I’m on my way to Ramsgate. I’ll drop in on you at Grays,’ near Tilbury, in Essex. Now, that’s a bit of a trek by train and stuff for him so that was very good. He turned up on Saturday morning with my dad’s father and it all came out. He’d got the full chapter and verse by then.
JM: Yes.
RW: But the army would not tell anybody anything for some time.
JM: My understanding is that the passengers in the Lancaster would sit on simple seats and they had no oxygen which would have —
RW: Yes.
JM: Limited the height at which they could fly at.
RW: Yes.
JM: Is that correct?
RW: Yes. And the heating wasn’t brilliant either. But they were both — there were two of them with passengers from Honington. I beg your pardon. That should be Conington. It was because of Honington and Coningsby they called it Conington. I hope I’ve got that right. Yes. It was an American B17 base so they knew. The, Glatton, was on the other side, there was a grass strip for Spitfires and such. Different accents. Yeah, they were sitting on rudimentary canvas seats or their kit bags. You’d think something like that would have floated up to the top but it didn’t. Three times.
JM: Do you have a theory as to what caused your father’s aircraft to crash?
RW: They did report to the other guys that they were down at two thousand feet. I went off the point there because I spotted that mistake. They were down at two thousand feet. They were in a filthy electric storm. The other two, ten minutes behind. The other aircraft was in pitch black but clear, if you understand that. They could see Corsica so they knew they were that far. They crashed off Cap Corse which is the north point of it. There are sort of pot holes in the sea so there’s — the three other crews saw an explosion or fire on the sea, they knew what they looked like of course, and they plotted a latitude longitude which I’ve plotted myself. There was a misprint in one of the reports which made it east-north-east of Cap Corse which was too far, too close to Italy. It was the other way, west-north-west. And that was that. But as I say, they were both low down. The rest of them — there was about twenty aircraft up that night going — they went over high level because they were on oxygen and whatever. Yeah.
JM: So, it might well have been weather related.
RW: Well it was —
JM: The electrical storm may well have been a factor.
RW: Yeah. They were struck by lightning. Or, they did report engine trouble so they were turning back to Marseilles they said.
JM: Robert. Thank you very much.
RW: Ok.
JM: Is there anything you wish to add? You’ve given us a very, very, thorough account.
RW: Right. Good. Thank you very much. No. If anybody wants to get in touch by all means. I’ll pass my — I’m on record with the IBCC people. And, Julian, I’m sure will be able to —
JM: Yes. Absolutely.
RW: Tidy up the link.
JM: Yes.
RW: But I’ll be delighted to help anybody with any further information or questions.
JM: Thank you very much on behalf of IBCC. Thank you very much Robert.
RW: Thank you.
JM: Thank you.
RW: Cheers, Julian.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Robert Whymark
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWhymarkR171103
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:30:54 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
North Africa
Poland
France--Cape Corse
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Leipzig
Poland--Gdańsk
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945-10-04
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Whymark’s father John ‘Jack’ Whymark took part in three tours of operations. Initially Jack was trained as a mechanic and was posted to 17 Squadron at RAF Debden and RAF Martlesham Heath. He then volunteered for aircrew and trained as a gunner. He was posted to 149 Squadron, 106 Squadron, 103 Squadron and 101 Squadron. He was killed when his plane flew into a storm en route to Italy as part of Operation Dodge.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Emily Bird
101 Squadron
103 Squadron
106 Squadron
149 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
Hurricane
killed in action
Lancaster
missing in action
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Debden
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Manby
RAF Martlesham Heath
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Syerston
RAF West Freugh
Wellington