1
25
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1409/43997/ATaplinJA880609.2.mp3
ce1338ceb3ea72f9cbb39e7d692cf4af
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Taplin, J A
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Taplin, JA
Description
An account of the resource
128 items. The collection concerns Flight Sergeant John Albert Taplin (b.1919, 1268696 Royal Air Force) and contains correspondence, documents photographs and two audio interviews. He flew operations as an air gunner with 408 Squadron before he was shot down and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Kevan Taplin and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with J A Taplin. Two
Identifier
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ATaplinJA880609
Creator
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Stevenage Heritage Project
Date
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1988-06-09
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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01:33:11 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending OH transcription
Pending review
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
John volunteered to join the RAF in 1940 wanting to become aircrew as a wireless operator as he had an interest in early radios. While awaiting his aircrew application to be processed he did his initial training at Blackpool and then onto RAF Yatesbury to train as a ground wireless operator. He was initially posted to Group headquarters at Huntingdon as a ground wireless operator. John then went back to Yatesbury for a wireless mechanics course and then moved to RAF Horsham St Faiths to 139 Squadron with Blenheims, while he was there he was locally trained and flew as an air gunner.
He then went back to Yatesbury for an aircrew wireless operators course then on to Penrhos for an Air Observers and gunners course. From there John went to 10 OTU at Abingdon, while there he flew on one of the 1,000 bomber operations in a Whitley flying from Stanton Harcourt.
Having finished his course John was posted to 10 Squadron at RAF Leeming, still on the Whitley, the squadron converted to the Halifax, John flew in the Halifax II fitted with Merlin engines. The squadron then moved to RAF Melbourne, in Sept/Oct 1942 John’s crew were posted to Leeming to a new squadron No 408 (RCAF) as part of 6 Group.
On an operation to Hamburg 2/3 February 1943 John’s aircraft was badly damaged and the crew baled out, he recounts the difficulties of bailing out from an out of control aircraft. He landed in a tree and evaded capture for three days.
As a prisoner of war, he exchanged identities with a soldier. He was also on one of the long marches from January to April.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943-02-02
1943-02-03
1945
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
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Trevor Hardcastle
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Wiltshire
Germany--Hamburg
10 OTU
10 Squadron
408 Squadron
6 Group
aircrew
bale out
Blenheim
bombing
evading
ground personnel
Halifax
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Horsham St Faith
RAF Leeming
RAF Melbourne
RAF Yatesbury
shot down
the long march
training
Whitley
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/PWebbLP1601.2.jpg
8d383cb13e5d542084f5bb97a0e790e4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/PWebbLP1602.2.jpg
582edc8348383d4840c77d8fb850fd8d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/AWebbLP161024.1.mp3
cf99d1beff0f84f2291e3486524ef69e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Webb, Lacey Peter
L P Webb
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Lacey Peter Webb (1925 - 2017, Royal Air Force), service material, aircraft drills, engineering notes, photographs and propaganda leaflets. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 427 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Webb, LP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I just make sure it’s working. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr. Lacey Webb at his home on 24th of October 2016. It seems to be working. I’ll just leave that, just move that over there. If I just leave that, leave that there
LPW: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down, I’m only checking to make sure it’s still working. It’s ok. So, what I like to know is first of all, before joining the Royal Air Force, what were you doing?
LPW: I was assembling furniture.
DK: Ok.
LPW: In a factory in the local town.
DK: Ok and then, what made you then want to join the RAF?
LPW: Well, when you think, I was fourteen, I was actually fourteen and fourteen weeks old when the war started. So I was a, brainwashed really by the war, I mean, all my teenage life was interrupted by the war from thirteen when I used to read the papers and so forth and of course when the war started, I was fascinated by the bomber operations.
DK: Ok.
LPW: And as I grew old, as I, they became my heroes and I wanted to become a member of Bomber Command.
DK: Alright, so it wasn’t seeing the fighters in the Battle of Britain.
LPW: No, no, it’s. And then, when I got seventeen and three quarters, they called us up. We signed on, then, men they called us then and I went up to Norwich for my medical and then of course you have to state what you would like to force you to join I said the Air Force, aircrew, you did a little test, they took about thirty of us in the room and asked us how many beans make five, you know quite simple little questions. They sorted through quite a number actually and then I went to Cardington and I actually met an interesting chap on the way down the bus from Bedford station down to Cardington, chap sat next to me and he said he’s going down. He says he’s going for an aircrew medical but he wasn’t [unclear]. He was a meteorological officer and he was going for a medical and he said he was Bob Hope’s cousin, cause he said he came from Bath, I think, which is Bob Hope’s hometown I think. Anyway, we were
DK: Not many people realise Bob Hope was actually born in Britain do they.
LPW: Not really and anyway I done my thing there and I think there’s about sixty of us. When we went for our interview on the third morning, there were just four of us left. Amazing, I was amazed,
DK: So the others had all been
LPW: Failed, as soon as you failed you were gone.
DK: Thank you.
LPW: I think they were pretty ruthless about selection. And I went in and met the old boys, us three RAF and they all had their gold braid and they asked me what, you know, what I would like to be and I said, I’d like to be a pilot. Of course, they looked at my educational qualifications, they said, you’re not quite up to that, son, but they said there’s a new trade as flight engineer and you take the place of the second pilot. And that’s how I became to be a flight engineer.
DK: So what form did the training take after that then?
LPW: What, when I joined up?
DK; Yes, once you
LPW: Well, I went, cause we all went to Lord’s Cricket Ground when we were first called up. I think three weeks at St John’s Wood and my [unclear] at St John’s Wood, believe it or not, was in the honour guard for the Queen Mother, was the old Queen Mother, the Queen at the time she was visiting the YMCA at the aircrew reception centre. And that was a private house set back and what happened was that the NCO in charge of the squad had done a bit of drilling and so forth, he selected about forty blokes out of the hundred and twenty, more or less the same height, and cause we had our, hadn’t changed our uniform, so some of us were short blokes head, the great coat came down, half way down the thigh and the tall chaps, they [unclear] tall policemen, about seven or eight policemen, they came half way up the thigh, you know. And some had hats that, flapped round their heads. Anyhow these chaps who were in charge of the squad lined us odd bods outside on the road, to keep the crowds back, I suppose and the real squad, he took off somewhere until the Queen went into the YMCA, they was supposed to come and line the garden down to the road when she came out. Of course, they got lost somewhere in the maze and so they brought all us odd bods to perform the guard of honour as you would say. Well, I’m sure that when her Majesty walked past us and she looked at us, I’m sure she was smiling and she thought to myself, what an odd lot of bods it was.
DK: Couldn’t believe what she was seeing.
LPW: Yeah. You imagine, you know, all the different, because when they gave you, you all got the same thing, you know. But there you go.
DK: So once you’ve done your
LPW: Three weeks down there.
DK: You’ve done initial
LPW: I went to Bridlington for six weeks initial training and
DK: Was that most of your square bashing there, was it down at Bridlington?
LPW: Yeah, and then we done aircraft recognition and we pulled the Sten gun to pieces and put it together and all that sort of stuff. And then, at the beginning of January we went down to St Athans and that’s where the training started, you know.
DK: As a flight engineer.
LPW: Yeah. First of all, they explained to us what a nut was and what the washer was, you know, it completely started right from the scratch
DK: It was very basic stuff.
LPW: Terrific rarely when you think about it, I just found this book of mine which was, which I done my course on and you want to have a look at that, at this quite extensive really.
DK: So, just for the benefit of the recording here, I will sort of go through what’s in here so. So, it’s got the Hercules six, which is the engine. So, it’s all the power outputs for that type of engine, leading particulars, degree of supercharging, oh wow, that’s all the engine though and so it’s got diagrams of the cylinders and crank shaft.
LPW: Is everything is in there.
DK: So.
LPW: All the diagrams, they draw those.
DK: So, you had to draw these
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Engine oil pressure pumps
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh wow.
LPW: I mean, when you look at that, we had a six months course, I know it wasn’t all on,
DK: Not just on the engine.
LPW: But they gave us two weeks to learn to pick up on a Lanc, completely different engine, airframe and everything
DK: So the work on the, the training on the Hercules was the assumption you could go on the Halifax.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So we got
LPW: We’d actually done [unclear] training in the last six months, really.
DK: So I got here Clarks viscosity valve
LPW: Six weeks.
DK: Do you remember the Clarks viscosity valve? [laughs]
LPW: Yeah. I just found that out this morning, I thought, I will have a look at it.
DK: This is, this is marvellous. You got a diagram inside the Halifax there which you’ve drawn
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Oh, wow.
LPW: Interesting, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. One thing the centre is doing is they are making copies of things like this, I think this is something that they’d be really interested in. I’m gonna have a think about that, I could get it copied it for you and get it to the centre there. Very in depth, isn’t it? Hayward compressor, oil temperature gauge, oil pressure gauge, so, these are all diagrams that you
LPW: Yeah, we had to draw those, yeah.
DK: Oh, I know they’d be interested in this. Ok, so, I’ll just put that back down there. So, that’s your, so that was your training all at St Athans. So, how long did the training at St Athans last?
LPW: Six months.
DK: Six months. And then after that where did you, where were you posted to then?
LPW: Well, apart from one of us, I’m pretty certain that I was sent to [unclear] for about two hours and then they sent us to a different conversion unit.
DK: Right.
LPW: And I went to Topcliffe. Conversion unit. And I was there for about and that was where I joined the crew because the crew, originally, as you know, they’d done initial training the other six together. They come to heavy conversion, pick up the flight engineer, then we’d done about a month there.
DK: So that’s where you first met your crew then, at Topcliffe.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And they were all Canadian?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So they’d trained in Canada and then come over.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: I know it was quite normal that the Canadians didn’t seem to train flight engineers.
LPW: They didn’t. Well they, at the end of the war, I got my screening leave, went back, walked in the section, who should I see, the Canadian trained flight engineer.
DK: So they did towards the end of the war then.
LPW: But you know, the Canadians financed and serviced the whole group
DK: The 6 group.
LPW: I don’t think the British public ever realised that.
DK: So that was the first time you met your crew then. Did the pilot choose you or did you go up to them?
LPW: Well, we were in a room and certainly this chap, or two of them came and said, you’ve been recommended to us as a flight engineer and that was the pilot and navigator. And that’s how we met.
DK: And what was your impression when you first met the pilot and navigator?
LPW: Well, I thought, seem very competent, you know. They were chaps. I suppose the pilot was about twenty-six and the navigator was about twenty-eight.
DK: So they were quite a bit older then, weren’t they?
LPW: Yeah. I mean, from what the rest of the crew said, in the mess
DK: So this is the crew here, is it?
LPW: That’s the pilot and that’s the navigator.
DK: So, can you remember the pilot’s name?
LPW: Yeah, Phil Millard.
DK: Millard. And the navigator?
LPW: Cyrus Vance.
DK: Cyrus Vance.
LPW: Yeah. His name was Pigger Vance, he was American. Well, he went to America when he was three years old.
DK: Alright.
LPW: And his brother was shot down over Berlin.
DK: So that’s the navigator Cyrus Vance. And remember this one?
LPW: Yeah. Pigger Vance.
DK: Pigger Vance. Yeah.
LPW: Gordon Upwell, he was the wireless operator. That was me there.
DK:
LPW: John Nookes and Bill Smith. He was the mid upper and he was the rear gunner. Myself there and there and the same there.
DK: Alright.
LPW: And that was in my heyday there.
DK: So that’s you, so, so the pilot was Peter Webb?
LPW: No, pilot was Phil Millard.
DK: Oh, sorry. Sorry, I’m getting confused.
LPW: Yeah. Actually, they screened me. They’d done 34, I’d done 36. I had to screen them at the same time.
DK: So how many operations did you actually?
LPW: Actually, I did 32.
DK: Thirty-two.
LPW: Although the tour was thirty-five at the time. I think they threw the two trips in that we had to abort. They had plenty of aircrew at the time you see.
DK: So you then met at Topcliffe and where did you all move on to then? Is that when you joined the squadron?
LPW: No, we got posted to the famous Lion squadron, and, 427, at Leeming.
DK:427
LPW: At Leeming. One thing about my Air Force days. I always went to a sort of a modern camp, Topcliffe and Leeming were pre-war stations. And in St John’s Wood we went in a proper hotel in St John’s Wood and at St Athan a hut camp had all the modern facilities and never did go on a satellite. Some chaps had a hard time on satellite ‘dromes and Nissan huts and so forth.
DK: So the stations you were on weren’t all very well built.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Is that ok if I have a look at the logbook then? So looking through, so you did thirty two operations
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Starting off with the Halifax.
LPW: Yeah. Cap Gris Nez was my first one on the 27th of September. Is it still legible?
DK: Yeah, yeah, so, twenty, that’s daylight, isn’t it?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So, 28th of September?
LPW: 28, was it?
DK: Pilot was Millard. And the aircraft is ZLV. Cap Gris Nez
LPW: [unclear] Although we didn’t bomb, they called us off before we bombed.
DK: Ok. Just going through here then.
LPW: Yeah. What was the next one?
DK: Cross countries, sea searches there.
LPW: Yeah. On squadron
DK: Return from Bury St Edmunds. Oh, here we go, sorry, operations Dortmund.
LPW: Yeah. Was that the second one?
DK: Yeah, looks like it.
LPW: What was that one?
DK: That says cross country.
LPW: Oh, right. Yeah.
DK: So I think the second one here was I think the 6th of October.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: ’44.
PLW: Dortmund.
DK: Dortmund. And it says, thirteen hang ups. So, the bombs didn’t drop.
LPW: And the undercarriage didn’t come down when we came in to land, the pilot on the downward leg, he said, load was showing red red, what are you going to do, Peter? So I got my hacksaw out, the old training came in well, cut a little piece of copper wire and released the pressure, the oil from the piston and down came the
DK: And the undercarriage came down. So that was from the Dortmund operation, was it?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying thirteen hang up bombs and couldn’t get the undercarriage down.
LPW: As we had a little bit of trouble to take off. We got caught in the slipstream [unclear] plane ahead of us and that swung us off and the pilot overcorrected it. And went slowly across the intersection of the runways and even today, I can see people jumping down off aeroplanes to stand and watch, some on the wing of a plane jumping. When we got back, they said we just went over the bomb dump.
DK: So that was the Dortmund raid as well, was it? So next operation was the 9th of October and it’s Bochum and mentions fighter attack. Were you attacked?
LPW: Just think, I think the gunners saw something and they, the pilot went into a corkscrew.
DK: So the next one was an early return.
LPW; Yeah.
DK: And then Duisburg, which was a daylight, wasn’t it?
LPW: Yeah, Duisburg, twice in twenty four hours.
DK: So there was Duisburg, daylight,
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then Duisburg again [unclear]
LPW: Yeah, one Sunday morning, we got there just early, eight, ten o’clock time
DK: In fact, one of the veterans I interviewed last week, his name was Ray Park, 218 Squadron, he was on both the Duisburg raids.
LPW: Was he?
DK: Yeah, he mentioned that it was a daylight and then a night time [unclear] on that raid.
LPW: Yeah. Then we got back to bed, they got us out of bed again, to go to Stuttgart, but the pilot complained and they took us off the raid.
DK: So you should have done Stuttgart after that. Then on the 23rd of October, Essen.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then, 25th of October, Homburg.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And 2nd of November, Dusseldorf.
LPW: Yeah. A lot of training as well.
DK: Yeah. Not the cross country, it was a local flying
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Then you got, St. Vith here
LPW: St. Vith, yeah, Boxing Day.
DK: St. Vith.
LPW: Yeah. But, you know, when they, Ardennes, defence when the Germans broke through, we bombed the cross roads, Boxing Day.
DK: Yeah, so that was the 26th of October. You put here a note, excellent prangs.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that went well then.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that was in daylight as well then.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then flak damage to ailerons.
LPW: Yeah. If we finished that, we had to go up to Russia, it tells you in there where we went to
DK: Alright.
LPW: We couldn’t land at Leeming it was fog, when we took off, that was down twenty feet, we got above, it was a lovely day once you got above
DK: So then you got Ludwigshafen.
LPW: Ludwigshafen. Mannheim and Ludwigshafen. One either side of the river.
DK: Yeah. So here, 6th of January 1945, mentions that you blew a tyre on the end of the runway.
LPW: Yeah. That was a day of disaster, really was [unclear] somewhere. Daylight raid? We were the spare crew and suddenly I said, off you go and off we went. Turned, just as we turned on the runway, the tyre burst. Now, the golden rule about turning the plane, you never clamp the inside of the wheel tight because you grind, hold it and the wires that reinforce the tyre break. And will allow and the pressure comes on the tyre. And your [unclear] bursts and we got into the spare plane and the time we got there we were about five minutes late of the end of the raid. The pilot said we carry on here and the Lanc formed up on the side of us about hundred yards, level with us. I often wondered about this and we were about and on the bomb run and suddenly this Lanc blew up, it’s a Pathfinder, all the different flares caught fire, just [unclear] and after seeing you know the Dam Busters film, where Gibson after he dropped his bombs, he flew down beside the other to take the flak away from the, I often wonder if that chap would have done the same for us, you don’t know do you. On the way back we were, half and half on our way there was a terrific thump. Someone said, what was that? And the rear gunner, he said, that was a Jerry fighter, this Jerry fighter went just over the top of us, and that was the air pressure gave us a terrific thump, so that was the day of, could have been.
DK: So that was all on the 6th of January 1945.
LPW: Yeah. Could have been a day of horrors, couldn’t it?
DK: So originally on aircraft W, blew the tyre at the end of the runway and changed to L.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And bombed five minutes late. [file missing]
So, David Kavanagh again. 24th of October 2016 interviewing Mr. Lacey Webb at his home. This is the second of two, working ok. So, just going back to your logbook. As you say, you did thirty two operations then.
LPW: Two aborted.
DK: Aborted.
LPW: One just after we got off the deck. One trip. Is in there somewhere. You went up the North Sea, designated area, and dropped the bombs. By the time we dropped the bombs and used up the fuel, we were, had the right amount of weight down for landing.
DK: Got one here. Operation to Magdeburg.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that was the sixteenth of January 1945.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: This is number four tank, port stuck, number four tank cocks [unclear]
LPW: What happened done all my pre-flight checks, you’d operate all the fuel cocks and everything you know and the fuel cock on number four was stuck, couldn’t move it and as it happened the OIC (Officer in Command), the warrant officer OIC, the flight, was actually in our dispersal. And he personally got up on the wing and eased this cock, made it work, that’s the one we took off on. Turned it off, we were always given a fuel system before we took off, when we, you know, the golden rule was one tank, one engine, in danger areas like take off, landings and so forth and the target area. Went to turn it on, won’t move. So we were then there’s a hundred and thirty gallons left in there and spare overload is always a hundred and twenty five extra in case of emergencies. So then I had to work a system where we were, a hundred and thirty gallons, that was locked away and then we worked on another system and kept the engine revs and boost pressure down so we just got enough to get back.
DK: And then it says you jettison two clusters east of Hanover, among searchlights.
LPW: Yeah. We had two hang ups and we stirred a hornet’s nest as soon as we dropped, we got predictable flak.
DK: So you’re still flying the Halifax then into 1945.
LPW: Yeah. At Magdeburg, I remember now, looking over the edge of the thing, I said to the pilot, oh, look all those little lights down there. And cause we had, we were loaded with incendiaries, he said, what they are Peter are houses on fire. Rows and rows and rows of them.
DK: And I got, first of February, Halifax U and then ops to Mainz.
LPW: Yeah, Mainz. Yes.
DK: Mainz. And it says, terrible weather on return journey.
LPW: Yeah. They had a little electric fire [unclear].
DK: We got one here that was abandoned. It’s 17th of February, ops to Wesel. Called off by master bomber.
LPW: Yeah. They were fantastic people these master bombers, cool as cucumbers.
DK: So what was the role of the master bomber then?
LPW: They were to tell you what bombs to, you know, new TI’s (target indicators) go down, which to bomb and so forth and I was watching a film the other day called Appointment in London about a bomber crew and well, with Dirk Bogarde took over the master bombers role and obviously [unclear] and that bomber command, that master bomber was given instructions [unclear] and always on one raid. The master bomber was issuing instructions very quiet, you know, controlled. And suddenly he said, I think they used to call themselves Tarpat, Tarpat 1 to Tarpat 2, he said, we’ve been hit, he said, take over, Tarpat 1 to Tarpat 2 take over, Tarpat, I just can’t as if they might have crashed or exploded or something. Very tragic at the time. But they were really wonderful blokes, these master bombers
DK: Can you remember which particular raid that was?
LPW: Not really, no.
DK: No. Very tragic.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So now you’re all of the raids that were into Germany, weren’t they?
LPW: Yeah. Cause the tragic thing was when you’re over the target, planes are getting hit by other plane’s bombs. You know, I mean, navigation was a perfect art, you’re all, you know, converging on the target, some overshoot the turning point by a minute that’s three miles at a hundred and eighty. We used a hundred and sixty, I think, on the run in.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: And then if you turn early and I mean early so when you come to target you’re all sort of coming and we had a plane just below us, used to bomb in two hundred foot layers and the bomber he said watch out for [unclear], you know, he said, I can see him, I can see him, he says, watch him, watch him, and of course when he let his bombs, you know the trim of the plane you actually lift up and our bombs went the same time as the other bloke, cause he came up and we came up and [unclear] and sideslip away. It wasn’t until we finished the tour on to that night and we went in the mess and had a bit of a booze up with another crew who just finished, that turned out that was their plane.
DK: So you were from the same squadron then.
LPW: Cause that was the only thing about, we were both same squadron, the same hut, the same time, you see, different levels.
DK: At night, could you see much of the other aircraft, normally?
LPW: Not much, you could feel them.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: When you’re doing dog-legging, that’s a dangerous time again, lots of, they always reckon they allowed for least one crash but if you’re early, cause the, the weather forecast is never accurate, couldn’t be accurate the, you know, the speed, wind speed and the direction was never a hundred percent accurate so, if they got the wind speed and direction, if you were early, get all bombers certain time, it would dog leg. You know minute, minute to do a minute and you did minute the other way and when you start dog-legging, cause all the other people had done the same, they all believed of course of the weather forecast, so suddenly you can feel the slipstream of another plane and you know, never see them.
DK: So just go stepping back a little bit. What was your role then as a flight engineer, if you take a normal operation?
LPW: Well, you were then responsible for all the mechanical and electric drives, and make sure everything, all your tests and so forth, but you assist the pilot in take-off and landing. Until he gets the wheel up, only the throttles would control the direction the plane but as soon as he gets the wheel up, then he can the rudders and will control direction and then you take and open the throttles up and that’s what it’s all about. And other than that and the Halifax, the main job was the fuel system, six six tanks in the wing, you know, and two engines, all different and we had a little computer and it gave all the different heights and engine settings at different speeds and all that in little [unclear] places and then you turned these things round and so you know that you’re using point nine eight gallons per engine for so many minutes, you calculate that on the fuel and so you know exactly how much fuel you got in each tank and when to turn them off, that sort of thing, that’s what the flight engineer is, mainly was.
DK: So, I noticed here towards the end of February, 23rd of February you were then on Lancasters.
LPW: Yeah, we then converted on Lancs, yeah.
DK: So, actually it was a mix, wasn’t it, cause 23rd of February on Lancasters but 24th of February back flying on Halifax.
LPW: Oh yeah, possibly, yeah.
DK: So it was check out on the Lancasters, local flight to a place, to Dortmund and 24th was back on a Halifax. So what was your impressions then of the Halifax against the Lancasters?
LPW: Completely different planes altogether. Halifax, we loved the Halifax, I had my own panel on the Halifax. The pilot sat here, an armour plate behind him, behind the pilot but I had a panel with all those gauges and that on. On the Lanc, you sat beside the pilot but my feeling about the Lanc was claustrophobic to me, very narrow, and all cramped up and we didn’t like it. But of course we were Halifax men but it was a marvellous plane.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: Wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
LPW: I mean, the amount of weight they carried and the distance they went, nothing else was touching it.
DK: So, can you remember how many operations you did on each?
LPW: That’s a little bit wrong there.
DK: Cause it’s got here twenty eight ops on Halifaxes and four on Lancs
LPW: yeah, that’s actually should have been thirty and two.
DK: So, thirty on Halifaxes and two on Lancasters.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So your last operation then, let’s just have a look, is on, it’s a Lancaster then, Lancaster U,
LPW: 20th
DK: 20th of March 1945.
LPW: Yeah. That’s just the day before they crossed the Rhine I think.
DK: Right, and that was to Hemmingstedt.
LPW: Right. In Sweden. No, Denmark, not Sweden, Denmark.
DK: To the south Danish border. And you put here, very excellent prang.
LPW: We were then excellent you see [laughs].
DK: And it says here first back and first to land. So, after your operations then, what did you go on to do then?
LPW: Well, we got a ten-week screening leave and then back to the squadron and two day I was posted to Catterick, that was an aircrew assessment centre, reassessment and well, all aircrew went to assess what they could do on the ground and we were there for three days. I did get down to football with their station team and they sent me home on indefinite leave and I was at home on D-Day, V-E Day and I think on the 13th of May I was posted to the Isle of Man as a UT (under training) flying control assistant and that’s where, that was a navigation school on Isle of Man and we were there till the June of ‘46 and we came back to Topcliffe where I’d done my conversion unit as, cause a Canadian [unclear] took over Topcliffe as a navigation school.
DK: And but at that point did the rest of your crew had they been sent back
LPW: Oh yeah, sent back. I mean, they, in the three days I had come back off leave, the rear gunner told me they’d already gone except him, all the squadron, back.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then?
LPW: Don’t know, I think February ’47, I think.
DK: And did you go back to the furniture making?
LPW: No. That was my
DK: So Sergeant L P Webb from first of November ‘43 to 12th of March 1947 and [unclear] he was employed largely on clerical work, discharged duties exceptional manner.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: [unclear] duties, carried them out very satisfactory by the squadron leader, so that is dated 7th March 1947.
LPW: And it cost me a three drinks to get him to write that
DK: [laughs]
LPW: Cause you know, they demoted us as aircrew.
DK: So what
LPW: Did you know they demoted all aircrew?
DK: So, what rank were you when you were in aircrew then?
LPW: I reached the dizzy rank of warrant officer. I got my crown after nine, what the hell I got it for I never did know. You automatically got your crown after nine months, twelve months, you see. My past date on the end of July ’44 gave me three stripes and suddenly when I got to the Isle of Man, I was called up in front of the CO, he, I’ve only been there a day, he said, you’re improperly dressed, sergeant, he said, you are actually a flight sergeant, and in that time I was home on indefinite leave, I’d been promoted to flight sergeant. So I had, and now I had three months as a warrant officer and next time it was a twelve weekend and then they demoted all aircrew to sergeant and some of them. If I just stopped in another six months, I would have been demoted to my ground rank, which would have been aircraftsman second class, flying control assistant UT. If I had been in the ground staff the time I went in, I’d had been at least an aircraftsman first class and maybe an LAC leading aircraftsman, that was the unfair part of it all.
DK: It was very unfair, isn’t it?
LPW: Yeah, but I think some chaps I met who, I mean, quite a few had done two tours of ops, in the heavy in the early days when there was, I mean they had no chance of finding the target in the first two years of the war because there was none of these electronic gadgets and then there was days when they were bombing Berlin and the Ruhr and so forth, you know, when they took the heavy toll on them. I met these chaps, one booked on three tours, he’d been a warrant officer for about three years, he signed on for a little extra time, he couldn’t tear himself away from the Air Force, got demoted to sergeant, you know, pretty tough one.
DK: So what was your career then after you came out of the Air Force?
LPW: I then, I don’t know whether it was psychological but I thought I’d like to get into the building trade. So, I took the course on brick-laying and worked for a local firm, went and worked for a big firm in Norwich.
DK: Did you sort of think that at the end of the war you wanted to do something constructive rather than destructive?
LPW: Yeah, I think so. I don’t know whether it was psychological or what it was, you know, I had been part of a destructive force, and
DK: So, how do you look back now on you period in Bomber Command?
LPW: I thought is marvellous. I thought that was a really great time, to tell you the truth.
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crews at all?
LPW: Yeah. Yeah, the bomb aimer, I’ve been over to Canada two or three times, to stay with them and I’ve been over to see us, he passed away now.
DK: Which one was the bomb aimer?
LPW: Not the bomb aimer, the wireless operator.
DK: The wireless operator. What was his name?
LPW: Gordon, Gordon Upwell. Ever such a nice chap he was. Ever such a quiet speaking fellow.
DK: So you actually went out to Canada to meet up with him. And did you stay in touch with any of the other?
LPW: No.
DK: Ok. I think that’s probably enough, we have probably spoken more than enough, but thanks very much for that. I’ll turn the recorder off.
LPW: [unclear] Period really.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Lacey Peter Webb
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWebbLP161024, PWebbLP1601, PWebbLP1602
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:45:50 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Michael Cheesbrough
Description
An account of the resource
Lacey Peter Webb remembers his role as a flight engineer in the Royal Air Force during the war and flying thirty operations on Halifaxes and two on Lancasters. Retraces his training in various stations, among them St John’s Wood, where he was selected to the be part of the Queen’s guard of honour. Tells of the selection process and the crewing up. Remembers when, on the way back from an operation over Dortmund, they couldn’t lower the undercarriage. Discusses the role of the master bomber. Explains the difficulties in coordinating bomb drops among aircraft of the same squadron when approaching the target. Tells of his life after war and how the entire crew was demoted.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1945-01-06
1945-01-16
1945-03-20
427 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
RAF Leeming
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/924/11167/ALeithJM170112.1.mp3
58862b6cf0fd639127eb573cee163a3e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leith, James McKenzie
J M Leith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer James Leith (b. 1924 186914 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 429, 624 and 148 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by James Leith and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Leith, JM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Flying Officer James McKenzie Leith at 2.30 on Thursday 12th of January 2017 at in his home in Fulwood, near Preston, Lancashire. So, Jim, if that’s alright to call you Jim, just for the record please would you confirm your date of birth and where you were born please.
JML: 21 5 ‘24. Bathville, Bathgate.
BW: And that’s near —
JML: Scotland.
BW: Glasgow, Scotland.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Yeah. What was your family life like? You had mother and father at home. Did you have brothers and sisters?
JML: Yeah. Two brothers.
BW: And were they —
JML: And two sisters.
BW: And were you the youngest or were you right in the middle or the eldest?
JML: Middle. Yeah.
BW: And what was your home life like in Glasgow or Bathvale? Was it a nice little village, you’d say?
JML: Yeah. A very good village because my grandfather was the local policeman.
BW: And where did you go to school?
JML: Bathgate.
BW: And did you stay in Bathgate throughout your school years?
JML: Yeah.
BW: And —
JML: I left school at fourteen.
BW: At the standard age.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And what did you then go on to do?
JML: I went working at the local swimming pool. Learning the people on a course of course first to get trained. Then learn people how to swim.
BW: And so you —
JML: Came it came in very handy later on I can assure you.
BW: So you were a swimming instructor in that respect.
JML: Yeah. Well, I was training to be a swimming instructor. Yeah.
BW: Ok. And how long were you doing that for?
JML: Probably two years. Yeah.
BW: And after that did you remain at the swimming pool or did you go on to another job? Did you take a job elsewhere?
JML: I went in the forces. Into the forces after. From being there. The swimming, the trainee swimming instructor.
BW: So you’d have been only sixteen.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And did you join the RAF first or was, did you join another branch?
JML: Well, I was in the Air Training Corps etcetera. Yeah. Stayed with them for, I don’t know. Quite, quite some time. The ATC as it was called.
BW: And were you always interested in joining the RAF then?
JML: Oh yes.
BW: As a young boy.
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: What attracted you to it?
JML: I don’t know. I just, I just liked it. My brother was in the army. My elder brother. He was in the army. And my sister who was older than me as well, only just, was a trainee nurse. So next in the, on the list was Jamie. And I, and as I say I went the ATC and I was quite happy we got into the RAF when the time came. Yeah.
BW: And what specifically did you intend to do in the RAF? Were you initially trying to be a pilot or or —
JML: No.
BW: In the [unclear] or something.
JML: I was just going to be in the RAF and leave it to them. Definitely.
BW: And so you joined before war actually broke out.
JML: I went in the —
BW: Because you were only [pause] Or was it just as war had started? It was ’24, and you were sixteen. Yes. So it would be 1940, wouldn’t it? So war would have started while you were —
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: Just joining up.
JML: Definitely. Yeah.
BW: So, was the, was the onset of war something that compelled you to volunteer more than the interest or was it just everything came together?
JML: Yeah. In general, I joined the ATC. The Air Training Corps. I joined that and eventually got in to the RAF.
BW: And where did you sign on? In Glasgow?
JML: Edinburgh.
BW: Edinburgh.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And what happened from there? Where did they send you for training? Do you recall?
JML: London, funnily enough. From one capital to the other. London.
BW: Do you know whereabouts at all? Or not?
JML: No. Don’t ask me that. No.
BW: Ok.
JML: No.
BW: And so you, did you apply at that time to be aircrew or did you once in the Air Force stick at a ground trade or as a mechanic or something or did you want to go as aircrew?
JML: Aircrew.
BW: From the start.
JML: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Do you recall where you did your aircrew training? Your gunnery training.
JML: Yes. Let me see now. That was under [unclear] Stormy Down, Cardiff.
BW: Stormy Down.
JML: Yeah. Stormy Down.
BW: Ok. Yeah.
JML: Have you heard of that one?
BW: Yeah.
JML: Yeah. Stormy Down. Yeah.
BW: And as an air gunner what aspects of your training can you, can you recall that you had to do?
JML: Well, being in the aircrew and training at Stormy Down I just automatically seemed to slot in and become an air gunner. And we used to fly out over the Bristol Channel towing, towing a drogue behind an aircraft and the air gunner flying in Whitleys.
BW: Whitleys.
JML: A Whitley. I think it was a Whitley if I remember rightly. And the rear gunner there shooting at a drogue as it went along to try and pass the test that your eyesight was good etcetera and you could see alright. Yeah. That more or less was it, I think. Probably there about, I would think at least two months. Maybe even more. Training. Yeah.
BW: And did you do any ground training with the guns at all?
JML: Very little. Very little during the period when we were at Stormy Down because it was all mostly in the air. Firing from the ground came later somewhere else but I’m trying to think where it was but I can’t think at the moment. On a beach somewhere. Somewhere in Yorkshire. Probably at Bridlington.
BW: So from Stormy Down you moved up to Bridlington to do some further gunnery training.
JML: Air gun training, yeah. Definitely.
BW: Ok. And then Dalton and Lyneham —
JML: That’s right.
BW: I believe.
JML: Yeah. That’s, that’s further training there. We went on to aircraft.
BW: And at this stage did you crew up with the guys that you were going to —
JML: No.
BW: Follow through with training?
JML: We just went with anybody.
BW: Ok.
JML: Because most of them were training as well. Yeah.
BW: And from your training as a gunner which seems to have finished at Lyneham do you recall what happened after that? Did you go to a Conversion Unit?
JML: Where did I go from Lyneham? [pause] Yeah. Yeah. We moved on to —where did I move on to? A Conversion Unit. Bloody hell.
BW: That’s alright. If it’s, if it’s escaped your memory don’t worry. But I’m just curious if you met your first crew at the Conversion Unit or whether you met them when you got to your squadron.
JML: That was it. It was a right mixture at the time [pause] Yeah. We crewed up at, yeah. We more or less became a crew eventually at the Conversion Unit.
BW: And can you recall who your fellow crewmates were?
JML: Yes. The first original ones were, there were the three Canadians. The pilot, flight sergeant [pause] now then. Charlie Bois. C H A R L I E B O I S. I think that was how you spelt it.
BW: Ok.
JML: Charlie Bois. And the navigator was Jim Cameron.
BW: Jim.
JML: Jim.
BW: Yeah.
JML: Cameron.
BW: Cameron. Ok.
JML: Canadian. The bomb aimer was Joe Senecal. S E N E C A L. Now then.
[pause]
BW: You have a wireless operator and a couple of gunners in there.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Of which one, one is you.
JML: I’m trying to think of the [pause] I think what was he called? I’m thinking about the flight engineer [pause] Well, I think it was George Messenger. Because he was with us a long time so George was probably there then.
BW: Ok.
JML: Mickey Neville, wireless operator.
BW: Davy Lambert, gunner, along with me. That should be seven, I think.
JML: Yeah. That’s right.
BW: Yeah.
JML: So Davy would be the mid-upper.
BW: That’s him. Yeah.
JML: And where were you based with 429? Do you recall?
BW: Yeah. This is all in my head and it’s just all rumbled up. I’ll get it. I’ll get it in a minute.
[pause]
JML: It’s a bugger, isn’t it?
BW: Do you think it was in Yorkshire?
JML: Oh aye. I never moved until I went abroad. I was there all the time.
BW: There were a couple of bases. One at East Moor and the other at Leeming.
JML: Leeming. That came up. That. Leeming. Leeming Bar it was called in them days.
BW: And what was your accommodation like there? Your barracks.
JML: Oh good. Yeah. More or less nissen huts. Yeah.
BW: And what were your arrangements? Were you all in there as a crew or were you all in there as gunners?
JML: Different. Different. Yeah. The crew, the crews were in the mess together. Not there, not in Bomber Command where I was, no. It was just a mixture.
BW: And did you socialise together as a crew?
JML: Oh, just so so because as I say we were, this was a Canadian squadron so they more or less, they more or less kept together and the RAF lads like myself and Mickey Neville and that. So, we did. We did socialise I suppose. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Because we were always at the at the sergeant’s mess was the sergeant’s mess and everybody mixed in there. Sergeants. Officers went to their own mess. But our crew of course at the time were all either a sergeant or flight sergeant apart from Jim Cameron, the navigator. He was a flying officer. Canadian. So he was the odd one out.
BW: How did you get on as a crew?
JML: Very good. Yeah. Really good. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: How did you all meet? Were you all put in to a large room together to sort yourselves out or, or not?
JML: No, you just, it was actually, probably two. Two to a room at the time. Aye. And at the time, at that time, apart from Jim Cameron, the navigator who was a flying officer all the rest of us were either sergeants or flight sergeants. And of course we were all more or less all together all the time.
BW: Did you get the opportunity to go off base and socialise? To go in to the nearest town?
JML: Oh yeah. Definitely.
BW: Have a few beers.
JML: Yeah aye. I mean, we were quite, quite the [pause] the Canadian lads probably kept together more than with the RAF lads. We more or less kept to ourselves. Mickey Neville and Davy Lambert etcetera. When I think about it now. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: Why do you think that was? Was there, was it a cultural thing?
JML: No. It was just —
BW: Or just circumstance.
JML: Yeah. No, no reason why not. Yeah.
BW: So thinking now about your operations and what you were going to do describe for us how you would be briefed. What sort of things would lead up to the start of a mission and what would you do yourself when you got to the aircraft?
JML: Well, briefing used to take place probably very late afternoon. Depending, depending on the take-off time. And of course each, each section had their own briefing. Apart from when all the crew members were together at the main briefing. Then after the main briefing the sergeants, gunners etcetera went to the gunnery officer. The navigators went to their. So in actual fact the main briefing would take place with all the crew members together at one time. Then after you had been told etcetera where you were going the officer in charge said the gunners or the wireless operator and that would call more or less their own briefing and give you information about what they thought you should do when you got on board the plane. And that was what I can remember anyway. It’s hard to remember. It is.
BW: I know. So, thinking now, at this point you’ve been briefed on your operation and you’re presumably driven out to the aircraft at dispersal. What would you do as a crew from being dropped off? What sort of, did you have any good luck rituals or checks that you would do when you got into your position in the aircraft?
JML: No. No. Not really. When you got on board of course like there was seven of you. Three or four, four at the front approximately. You all take your positions etcetera. Mid-upper gunner of course is middle turret. The rear gunner, myself, in the rear. And then the skipper would call up to make sure you were all in your position and you’d checked everything and you were quite happy. That you were ready to go. He did that with all the crew.
BW: And how did it feel when the engines started and you were on your way sort of thing?
JML: Well —
BW: Taxiing out.
JML: That didn’t seem to bother. It was just like taking off again, you know. The only thing that was going to be a bit different when you crossed the Channel but other than that it was just straight forward. Yeah.
BW: And I believe you had an eventful first sortie. You’d been briefed to go. First operation. You’d been briefed to raid Stuttgart.
JML: Stuttgart. Yeah.
BW: And describe for me what had happened when you’d taken off.
JML: Oh, we’d had an uneventful trip. No trouble at all. Across the Channel, over France etcetera heading towards Germany. We had no bother at all. Occasional flashes of flak somewhere but other than that there was no bother at all until we got near the target area and then it started to brighten up a bit if that’s the right word. We didn’t see any night fighters. Plenty of flak. And then when we got to the target area the flak was very strong and there, unfortunately we were hit and the pilot had to turn off one of the engines because that was hit very badly. And so we’d three engines, so we [pause] he just dropped the bombs where we were which was somewhere near the target and turned around and headed for home. But by that time he’d decided to take drastic action and he cut off the engine altogether so we were flying on three engines and headed for the target. Well, away from the target to get back to England which was a good trip all the way actually. No problems at all apart from the plane seemed to be losing a bit of height etcetera. But other than that we had no trouble at all getting back to the coast. By that time we were, I think we might have been struggling regarding fuel because the pilot had asked the navigator to find out the nearest aerodrome as we were crossing the Channel which he did. And we headed, headed for that particular, that particular aerodrome. I cannot, I can’t think of the damned name of it now. But that’s where we headed for but, and we got there and got permission to land. And the pilot made an attempt to land but as he made the attempt to land another aircraft which I think was a Lancaster was underneath us so we opened up the engines and headed back out over the sea. And unfortunately, I don’t know what happened but a minute or so after we’d attempted to land the pilot was shouting, ‘We’re going down. We’re going down.’ And a few seconds later, I’m still in the rear turret, the plane hit the sea and it, I think it broke up mid-way along, mid-way along the thing but by that time I’d only just got out the turret and was thrown up. Thrown up the plane. I don’t know if I was semi- conscious or not but I found myself in the middle of the aircraft and presence of mind, I don’t know why I stood up. I was standing in the middle of the aircraft. Well, there was a handle and that handle released the dinghy. I probably didn’t realise it at the time. So I pulled the handle anyway and could see the actual dinghy come out the wing and inflate itself automatically. Of course that didn’t bother me because I mean having been used to water in civilian life I wasn’t bothered at all. So, I mean, I scrambled out. I scrambled out the plane somehow and managed to keep pulling on the dinghy to get the dinghy right out. And Davy Lambert, the other gunner had climbed on the wing of the plane and between us we got the dinghy going and Davy got in the dinghy. And then we, I was still sitting on the, on the wing and then I got in to the water itself and started to shout out names etcetera to find out where everybody was like. And eventually we all got in to the dinghy. I was last in because I was quite happy in the water. I wasn’t bothered. Water didn’t bother me. We got them all in to the dinghy and fortunately they, on the land they knew that the plane had gone into the sea somewhere and an air sea rescue launch picked us up within the hour. So it was very very quick. Quick. A very, very quick hour. But everybody was alright. Nobody, nobody was injured even though the, even though the plane was in a mess and as I say we were picked up within the hour so that was it. Our first trip. Brilliant.
BW: And this was November 26/27, 1943.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And presumably you’d come back at night.
JML: Pardon?
BW: You’re still night time.
JML: That happened —
BW: So this has all happened in the dark and the cold.
JML: 4 o’clock in the morning it was. Approximately.
BW: So, it’s pitch black.
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: And freezing cold water.
JML: It was bloody cold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But as I said water didn’t bother me so I was alright, you know. I was more interested in what was happening to the rest of crew if they couldn’t swim. As it happened most of them could swim so [pause] And the plane hadn’t really broken up like I thought it might have done. So the wing was still there with it. With the, where the dinghy was. And we were all quite, well, I wouldn’t say quite happy in the dinghy but at least we were all in the dinghy and very quickly picked up by the air sea rescue lads. Pitch dark mind you. But we were making enough noise for them to find us. But it was no bother.
BW: And so I’m assuming that the rescue launch was using a searchlight to sweep the sea to look for you.
JML: Sea. Right.
BW: And it was only from signalling or shouting while you were in the dinghy that they could try and locate you.
JML: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because we’d no lights or anything. No. Nothing at all.
BW: Amazing.
JML: Yeah.
BW: So, what happened when you got on board and were taken back to base? Were, were you debriefed at all any further or —
JML: Well, we, as I said it was right down south. I can’t. I can’t remember any debriefing to tell you the truth. I can’t remember any bit of it because obviously we’d landed at this place down south when we should have been up in Yorkshire. So, we stopped there anyway. I think we stopped there. A little bit of a stop there that day and I think it was the next day [pause] that’s right. We were only there a day and then we were, made our way back to Leeming in Yorkshire. By train of course. Got the train in to, got the train into London and then we headed back home over to, to Leeming. Yeah. I think that was it anyway. Near enough.
BW: And did any of the senior officers wonder where you’d been?
JML: They knew. They must have got notified like that, over what, I can’t remember the registration. It doesn’t matter. There were [pause] no. I’m just trying to — anyway, they knew anyway that something had happened to us and that we were alright. And I can always remember that I had it and I can’t find it. I think it was, I think it was 6 Group, I think, if I remember rightly. The Canadians. 6 Group. And when the, when the Group paper came out the next day or a couple of days later I can see the headline now. It had it across it. The headline of the paper was well [pause] all the Canadian squadrons had a name. We were, we were the Bison Squadron. And on the headlines of the paper in red, “Bison boys launched on maiden trip.” That was the first trip we had done and in the paper that was the headline. And it gave a, what had actually happened to us, you know and what annoys me is I have an old typewriter upstairs and up to a few years ago I’d got the newspaper itself. I got the front page of it from wherever it was like. We all got one I suppose. I kept that for years. That’s what I was trying to find. And on the old typewriter upstairs I made a typed copy of it. Of what it said. I can’t find it. So that that was our only trip with Bomber Command.
BW: But you became a member of the Goldfish Club as a result.
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Did you get a badge?
JML: It’s there. It’s the yellow one. The smallest.
BW: So this is like a what we now say is a credit card sized.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Piece of card that says on it Goldfish Club Membership Card 1942 with the emblem on and details you as, “Sergeant J McK Leith. James McKenzie Leith qualified as a member of the Goldfish Club by escaping death by the use of emergency equipment on 27th November 1943.” Fantastic. And the design of this card, it says is based on the unique waterproof card issued during World War Two.
JML: Yeah. I can’t remember who sponsored that. I can’t think of his name. One of the richest men in Britain.
BW: I can only think the Duke of Westminster but there’d be others of course.
JML: I can’t remember his name.
BW: The sig.
JML: We got though —
BW: The signature on it is Charles Robertson.
JML: Aye. He’s the one organised the thing, isn’t he?
BW: Robertson.
JML: You got a payment you know from it. This chap I’m talking about.
BW: Right.
JML: You got, you got seven days leave after you ditched and you got paid by whoever it was that started this Goldfish thing. What was he called? Bloody hell. Anyway, he was one of the, he was one of the richest men anyway and he, I think you got seven days leave and you got seven days pay which he paid. That’s if I remember right properly. I don’t know if you’ve heard that before or not.
BW: I haven’t but I’m sure you’re right.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And so you arrived back at Leeming and you’re all dried and back to normal.
JML: Oh yeah. Not, not long back to normal.
BW: And what happened? What happened next?
JML: Oh dear [pause]
BW: Did you continue any other operations or sorties with the Bison Squadron?
JML: They decided, when I say they decided, they got there the squadron commander, a wing commander at the top decided that the pilot Charlie Bois, he was called [pause] it was, that’s right we were still fit to fly the Halifax. He wasn’t very tall, wasn’t Charlie Bois. Fairly small. That’s the pilot I’m talking about. And anyway, they decided that he was still alright for flying. But about a month later we, we were we had some time off actually flying. And then we got [pause] It would be about a month before we were picked to go on another. Another bombing raid. I can’t remember the date. The details. But the [pause] got on the plane at the dispersal point and somehow or other as we left the dispersal point, by the way this is, we were still into November December and it’s gone dark of course at four or 5 o’clock like, you know. And somehow or other at Leeming there was two squadrons. We were the Bison Squadron and the other squadron was the Lion Squadron. I can’t remember the number of it but it was the Lion Squadron. And on this particular day we were going on this other flight which would have been our second flight. As we taxied at our dispersal point an aircraft from the Lion Squadron coming down the [pause] I can’t describe it.
[pause]
Now, this aircraft from the Lion Squadron coming around the perimeter track, and we coming, coming out of our own dispersal point and this aircraft from the, the Lion Squadron hit our aircraft as we left the dispersal point. Very [pause] really damaged the planes and mind you we all scrambled out and we were all right. And the lads from the Lion Squadron they were alright as well. But the two aircraft were a right mess. So that, that flight was cancelled completely. And after that I don’t exactly know what happened but that Charlie, as I said he wasn’t a very big bloke he was taken off flying bombers. I don’t know who decided it, but somebody decided he’d be better flying lighter aircraft so he was taken off the squadron and what happened to him after that I’ve got no idea. But the RAF lads that was myself, the mid-upper gunner, the wireless operator and, no that’s, that’s right. We three RAF lads were sent to another unit and I think it was Dishforth. Dishforth. Either Dishforth or Driffield, one or the other to await being crewed up with another pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. That’s it. Yeah. Now then, as I say it was either Dishforth or Driffield but it doesn’t matter. That was another Conversion Unit and we went there in, we were now in to December. I don’t know why but for some unknown reason we three, Mickey Neville, Davy Lambert and myself were at that unit for oh a long, long time. I think they’d forgotten about us. But eventually [pause] I’m just trying to imagine how we got crewed up again. I can see it all but [pause] Anyway, we got crewed up again but I just can’t remember. I can remember the pilot. Pilot Officer Proud. P R O U D. Another Canadian. And I think we must have still kept the three other Canadians as well. But thankfully time was flying past.
JML: You must have been in the unit well into the spring of ’44.
BW: This is what I’m trying to remember. I’m trying to remember exactly how it came about. As I say we got this, this bloke called Pilot Officer Proud. I’ll never forget his name. I was just trying to remember where. [pause] Anyway, to cut a long story short Pilot Officer Proud hadn’t flown on any operations at all. So we went to Linton on Ouse. Does that ring a bell?
BW: Yes. That’s in Yorkshire.
JML: Yeah. That’s right. We teamed up with Pilot Officer Proud. That’s it. More or less with the same, the same crew as previously apart from the pilot. But the crew stopped the same. Right. I’m trying to think of is it, did I say Dishforth?
BW: You said it was, it was either at Dishforth or Driffield. And I think there was a Conversion Unit at Dishforth. But you then moved from there once you’ve met your new pilot to Linton, Linton on Ouse. So it sounds like you’ve been assigned a new pilot and are ready to be transferred to a new squadron.
JML: I’m trying to think which one it was actually. 429 Squadron. 429 624148. What you find in there? 429.
BW: After December ’43 at Dishforth it was 426 Squadron for the remainder of the war. And then at Linton.
JML: Linton on Ouse.
BW: 426 must have moved from there. From Dishforth to Linton as well. So if you’ve gone from those two airfields it’s possible you’ve been with 426.
JML: I’ve got them here.
[recording paused]
BW: So you met and crewed up with Pilot Officer Proud again.
JML: Correct.
BW: And he was from 408 Squadron. That’s what you’re saying.
JML: No. That’s where we got him but he hadn’t flown on any operational trips when we crewed up with him. We’d only done one but he hadn’t done any at all. Right. Now, he went on an operation as a second pilot with 408 Squadron. Now, where they were going I don’t know but they never came back. It was lost with all the crew including Pilot Officer Proud. So we never flew any operations at all with Pilot Officer Proud unfortunately. I had a hectic time for a bit. Flying.
[pause]
JML: Now, why have I put that there?
BW: So, Pilot Officer Proud went up on an a operation as a —
JML: Second pilot.
BW: Second pilot and never came back.
JML: Yeah.
BW: You then returned to Dishforth. To the holding unit.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And your new pilot who you met was — ?
JML: Must be Lawrence.
BW: Lawrence.
JML: Toft. T O F T.
BW: And was he an officer?
JML: No. Not then he wasn’t. He was a flight sergeant.
BW: Flight sergeant. Ok. And so you’ve now got, you personally have moved onto your third crew.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Now. And what happened with Toft? You called him Tofty. Is that right?
JML: Lawrence.
BW: Lawrence.
JML: Or Lawrie. Yeah.
BW: Did you do much training with him?
JML: No. Because he had already done three trips I think with, back to the, what did they call the squadron earlier when we ditched in the sea. He came from that squadron.
BW: 429 Bison.
JML: 429. Yeah. And we went to Dishforth, wasn’t it?
BW: Yes.
JML: What, what, when was that? What?
BW: That would be spring 1944.
JML: What was that with?
BW: So you were there several months between the holding posts.
JML: I went with him.
BW: And it was a while because you thought they’d forgotten about you all. And you then would have been assigned your crew roughly Spring 1944.
JML: Yeah. As I say we got Tofty. That’s right. Then we went [pause] Yeah. We got Tofty.
BW: How would you describe him? What sort of a person was he?
JML: Very clever. I did try to think. Mickey Neville, Davy Lambert, myself. That’s the three of us. I’m just trying to fit in the other. He was actually Canadian that one.
[recording paused]
BW: So your crew now.
JML: Yeah.
BW: If I read these names out to you. Flight Sergeant A J Toft.
JML: That’s right.
BW: Flight Sergeant Johnston.
JML: Johnston. Yeah.
BW: Sergeant T S Jones.
JML: That’s him.
BW: Sergeant G H Messenger.
JML: George.
BW: That’s George Messenger.
JML: George Messenger.
BW: Sergeant Mickey Neville.
JML: Mickey Neville.
BW: M R Neville.
JML: David Lambert. Yeah.
BW: And sergeant D P —
JML: That’s the one I couldn’t remember. He’s Canadian the [pause] I’ve lost him again. Jones. Tommy Jones is it?
BW: Yeah.
JML: Tommy Jones.
BW: Yeah. Jones. T S Jones.
JML: Bomb aimer. Yeah. That’s the one, that’s what I’ve been trying to think about.
BW: And he was your bomb aimer.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And he was Canadian.
JML: Right. Yeah.
BW: And what sort of a guy was he?
JML: Very queer but can’t account for that. Not queer, queer.
BW: Quirky perhaps or unusual.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And so what was going to be your next mission with them?
JML: We went abroad.
BW: You were sent abroad to 624 Squadron. Is this right? To Libya.
JML: Hmmn?
BW: Did you go to Libya? You say you went abroad.
JML: That’s right.
BW: You were posted to 624 Squadron.
JML: Blida.
BW: Blida, Algeria.
JML: Yeah. B L I D A. Blida.
BW: And this is now special duties.
JML: That’s right. I just couldn’t think of that bloody bloke’s name. Jones. Tommy Jones. Anyhow.
BW: And how did you end up as a crew being posted there? Did you volunteer or were you picked?
JML: Just, were just sent. Yeah.
BW: And what was that base like? What was Algeria like?
JML: It was actually quite good. In fact, very good actually.
BW: Did you fly out there or did you —
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: Travel by ship.
JML: We took a brand new Halifax out to that place. Different to the one that we had but they changed the tail on it. Made it a square tail instead of that way and it was a new one. Brand new. We picked it up at a place called, Hurn is it? Hurn, near Bournemouth. Yeah. We took that with us.
BW: So was this a brand new Mark 5?
JML: Yeah. It would be. Yeah.
BW: Mark 5 Halifax.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And you flew it from Bourne.
JML: That’s it.
BW: To Blida.
JML: To Blida.
BW: Blida.
JML: Yeah. So we got on to special duties instead of Bomber Command.
BW: And what sort of things were you doing on special duties? Do you remember what sort of operations you were tasked with?
JML: Yeah. Either dropping agents or dropping supplies to the French in Southern France.
BW: Did you get to talk to any of the agents at all?
JML: Not allowed. No.
BW: What were your briefings like at this stage then? When you, when you joined this brand new squad, well for you it was a brand new squadron, what were your briefings like now as regards preparation for a mission? What were you told about it?
JML: Well, briefings briefly consist of whether you were dropping agents or dropping supplies and that was more or less, and of course whether you were going to Southern France or anywhere you were going. But at no time were you allowed to have a conversation with any passenger that you were taking because it was all top secret. And that was more or less the briefing. Yeah.
BW: Were you able to find out anything about the agents that you were tasked with dropping or the cargo that you would carry as supplies? Was any of that ever made known to you?
JML: No. No.
BW: So —
JML: Definitely not.
BW: So if the pilot ever knew he wasn’t even able to discuss it with you as crew. If the pilot knew he wasn’t able to discuss it with you as crew then.
JML: No. Definitely not.
BW: And what were these operations like in comparison to the couple that you had flown with Bomber Command? Was there a difference for you as a gunner? Were you, did you feel it was a better environment or less hostile for example or what?
JML: A lot less hostile because —
[pause]
BW: How was it being in the rear of this Halifax this time? Were there, were the missions quieter in that you didn’t fly over heavily defended targets? Is that right?
JML: Yeah, yeah, yeah the, the flights from Blida in North Africa mostly went to Southern France and of course you flew most of them over water of course and once you reached the coast you then had to find where the agents were and nine times out of ten they were in the, in the mountains. And the mountains were the biggest, the biggest drawback we had.
BW: And you were still flying at night on these missions.
JML: They were all night. Night. Yeah. All night missions. Yeah.
BW: And from 624 you moved on to 148 Squadron.
JML: [unclear] Yeah. 148.
BW: Which would be, which would be flying from Italy.
JML: Brindisi.
BW: And doing the same sort of work.
JML: Exactly the same, dropping supplies or agents, yeah.
BW: And from Italy you presumably saw out the rest of your service with 148 Squadron. At what stage were you sent back to the UK?
JML: I’m trying to think how long we stopped in there. We flew back to, to Cairo [pause] to await transport to the UK. And that was it.
BW: And was that 1945? Or would it be after do you think?
JML: No. No. I’m trying to think when we, 1944 we were flying, was that 1945? Would it be ’45 or was it late nineteen — ? Oh, it must have been ’45. ‘44 we flew out of from England, did the tour. Yeah.
BW: And how long did you stay in the RAF after the war?
JML: Not so long. I can’t think when I came out.
BW: Would it be 1946—
JML: ’46, I think.
BW: When you were repatriated and left at, in 1947. Discharged on 28th of September 1948.
JML: As long as that did I wait?
BW: You’ve come back to Wheaton or Kirkham.
JML: Kirkham.
BW: In 1946.
JML: That’s it, yeah.
BW: And that’s when you met a WAAF.
JML: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: What was her name?
JML: Hmmn?
BW: What was her name?
JML: Margaret Iddon. You want her surname.
BW: Your, your girlfriend at the time. In 1946. What was her name?
JML: Margaret. You want her, do you want her —
BW: What —
JML: You want her surname as well. That’s it. Margaret Iddon. I D D O N. Oh well, no, I’m getting confused. Sawford. Sorry. S A W F O R D I think. Sawford. That’s, that’s your mum’s name isn’t it, Margaret?
Other: Yeah. I knew you’d mentioned Iddon and I thought well I’m not in on this.
JML: It’s amazing how I get confused Margaret.
Other: Never mind.
BW: And what happened after? After you were demobbed?
JML: I went working for [pause] as a salesman for Jackson, the tailor.
BW: And how long were you there?
JML: A long time. ‘Til maybe about, probably 1965 or ’66. More or less to retirement, near enough.
BW: And what do you think of the commemorations taking place at the moment Bomber Command? It’s been a while since the veterans have been commemorated but now they’re being honoured, if you like for their service. What do you think?
JML: Well, yeah because we were having this place what’s it called again? I’ve forgotten the name.
BW: Lincoln or Hyde Park. The Memorial at Hyde Park.
JML: Well, I think that’s the [pause] that one at the Arboretum. Is it the Arboretum?
BW: Oh, yes the National.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Memorial Arboretum at Stafford.
JML: Yeah. I’ve been going there for the last ten years on and off. Obviously we’ve got, we’ve got a spot there.
BW: Are you glad the veterans of Bomber Command are being remembered?
JML: I suppose so. Yeah. Because I mean they [pause] I’m just trying to think if there’s a proper thing.
BW: There’s a Memorial in London.
JML: Yeah. Yeah. I got an invite to that but I didn’t go.
BW: And there’s now this Centre in Lincoln.
JML: Yeah. The only other one I know about is this one at the Arboretum which is where the Special Duties have their place.
BW: Alright. Well, that’s, that’s all the questions I have for you, Jim.
JML: Thank God for that.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
JML: Yeah. Well, I’m sorry I can’t give you as much as I wanted to do, you know.
BW: That’s alright. Thank you very much.
JML: I’m trying to remember things, you know.
[recording paused]
BW: So, this is Brian Wright interviewing Flying Officer Jim McKenzie Leith on the afternoon of Thursday the 12th of January 2017 at his home at Fulwood, Preston in Lancashire. Now, Jim you’ve kindly told me that you were born the 21st of May in 1924 in Bathville near Glasgow and you were the middle brother of five. You had two brothers and two sisters. And that you left school at fourteen and you had been a member of the Air Training Corps prior to joining the RAF in 1940. And following your initial training as airman and then trade training as an air gunner you joined 429 Canadian Squadron in Yorkshire based at RAF Leeming. And you described for me your first sortie when you were returning from a raid on Stuttgart on the 27th of November 1943 and were forced to ditch in the, in the Channel. And you recovered from that. After a period of time on holding squadrons at Dishforth you were then sent to Bilda, sorry Blida.
JML: Blida.
BW: Blida, in Algeria in 1944. And you were first on 624 Squadron and this is a special duty squadron that I’d like to ask you about. You flew a brand new Halifax out. And how did it feel to join this new squadron? Were you aware of the sort of things you were going to do when you arrived in Algeria?
JML: No idea. No idea at all.
BW: And when do you recall your first operations with this squadron? What sort of things did you have to do?
[pause]
BW: You were dropping supplies and agents in to Southern France, weren’t you?
JML: Yeah. Definitely.
BW: You couldn’t talk to these guys who you were flying.
JML: No. Well, we mostly dropped supplies. Very seldom did we drop agents. Just occasionally. But the briefing etcetera was quite plain enough as you were flying, flying across water all the time ‘til you got to Southern France. And then you had to find out the position where the agents were but mostly they were in the, in the mountains and so the thing was to make sure that you got your position right because if you didn’t, depending on the weather would you be able to make your drop or not because most of Southern France there was mountains all around where the agents were in secrecy waiting on supplies coming etcetera.
BW: And do you recall what the pilot had to do or you as a crew had to do on the approach to the drop zone?
JML: It was very important actually approaching there because obviously there was different signals. We did signal which we would flash to the ground and if we were in the right position we got a flash back from the ground. But it had to be matched up with the letter or number or whatever it was you were expecting because obviously there was plenty of Germans around on the ground as well and they got the message that we were sending down which was the letter of the day. Which of course changed by the way at different places. And of course the Germans would try and find out and flash a letter back hoping that it was the same as the one we were expecting and we would drop the goods. But nine times out of ten of course the letter we got flashed back was the right letter. But occasionally there were times when you got a different letter. And of course you knew right away that it was the wrong area and you would definitely not drop any ammunition or anything else, or agents depending what you were dropping that particular day.
BW: And were there occasions when you didn’t get the right signal?
JML: Oh, definitely. You’d get the wrong, the wrong letter of the day, you just ignored it.
BW: And did you experience any ground fire let’s say from the Germans? Were they, did they attempt to shoot at you if they thought you were going to approach?
JML: Very very, very occasionally.
BW: And did you have to fire your guns back at them?
JML: Very seldom. Very, very seldom.
BW: And do you recall what sort of height you would be when this was taking place? Were you at low level? Or were you —
JML: The drop, the drop zones were very, very difficult because as I said nine times out of ten they were in the mountains and depending on the weather etcetera it was very difficult to judge the height of the mountains. And especially in the Pyrenees where most of the agents were in hiding. Very very difficult.
BW: And on the times when you had to drop agents by parachute were you able to speak with them at all?
JML: No, nobody was allowed to talk to any of the agents in the area. In the plane or out the plane. It was taboo. Not allowed.
BW: And so you never knew the names of the people you were —
JML: Definitely not.
BW: You had on board.
JML: No.
BW: I understand some of the agents were occasionally dropped in handcuffs because they had potentially been in prison. One veteran from 624 told me of an incident where that happened. Did that ever take place with you at all? No.
JML: Definitely not. No.
BW: And what were the facilities like at Blida?
JML: The what?
BW: What were the facilities like at Blida?
JML: Oh, quite, quite good. Quite good. Some of them had tents. But we and our crew were very fortunate. We’d quite a good billet. A nice wooden billet.
[pause]
BW: How long were you with 624 Squadron? Do you recall?
JML: I would say three months. Three months. Maybe four.
BW: And you and your crew had been posted to the squadron from your previous unit in England. So none of you had volunteered for special duties.
JML: No. No.
BW: You were just posted as a part of a routine squadron.
JML: Definitely.
BW: Were you given any extra money? Were you paid any extra for these?
JML: No.
BW: Operations. No.
JML: No.
BW: And were you trained or given any briefings on resistance to interrogation if you were forced to land or were captured in France?
JML: No.
BW: After your service with 624 you moved on to another special duties squadron, 148.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Where were they based?
JML: Brindisi.
BW: In Italy.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And you were, where were you flying missions to in in Europe from this base?
JML: All the [unclear] countries, Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece. All around All around the Balkans.
BW: And the same question I suppose. Were you ever able to learn anything of what these operations involved in terms of supplies? The type of supplies you were dropping or agents.
JML: Not really. No. The only time we were advised on ammunition etcetera was special operations to Poland, and Warsaw where the uprising was taking place and they needed, they needed ammunition of any description.
BW: Can you tell me what you understood of the operation that was briefed to you about this? What were you told about flying to Poland on this particular occasion? This would be August 1944.
JML: Yeah. Well, the uprising was taking place but, but they were fighting a losing battle because of the number of Germans that were actually occupying Warsaw at the time. And the [pause] they were very short, the Polish Resistance regarding food and ammunition etcetera. So it was very, very difficult.
BW: And do you recall how many flights you had to make in support of the Poles in Warsaw?
JML: I think we made four trips in all to Poland itself especially during the month of August forty — it would be ’44, would it?
BW: That’s right.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And was it noticeably heavier in the aircraft because of the load you were carrying or —
JML: No. No. Definitely not.
BW: How would they carry out this sort of drop? Were the supplies positioned in the bomb bay?
JML: Yeah. Normal. Yeah. Carried them instead of bombs. And in the interior. The interior of the plane as well. Yeah. It was very, not much room at all in the plane because it was always packed with either kit bags or [pause] well, and it depended how much we could take apart from what was in the bomb bay.
BW: And your pilot was a Lawrence Toft.
JML: Ahum.
BW: What do you recall of him?
JML: Lawrence was a very, very quiet fella. Very quiet. But what he did say it made you think that he knew what he was doing and he had great faith in the rest of his crew because his crew had great faith in him.
BW: And did you feel on these missions that it was any more dangerous than what you would have done flying over Germany?
JML: The trips to Poland, especially to Warsaw were very difficult because we were flying in to a city and flying in very low to make sure that what we were carrying dropped in the right spot because if they weren’t dropped in the right spot the Germans could get to them before the Polish partisans. Very difficult.
BW: And over the city you would be getting signals from the rooftops instead of —
JML: Yeah.
BW: Of the country.
JML: And we were flying very, very, very low. About three hundred feet above the city. And most of the partisans at that particular time in Warsaw were more or less short of ammunition, short of food, more or less short of everything.
BW: And I believe there were enemy troops positioned on the roofs of the city.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Firing at you as you approached. Is that correct?
JML: Oh definitely.
BW: What do you recall of your sight of the city when you were flying over it? What kind of things could you see?
JML: There’s lots of parts as well. The city itself in parts was just a mass of flames. Some parts of it wasn’t but most of it, and there was a lot of activity. You could see the gun flashes and I think most of them were from the Germans fighting the partisans on the ground. There wasn’t much activity in the air. Quite a bit sometimes but mostly it was on the ground.
BW: And was your target Napoleon Square?
JML: That was it, the centre of Poland.
BW: And so the three or four trips that you made were they over a week or over a couple of days or —
JML: A week. Yeah. A week to ten days, definitely. Some, some were right into the heart of Poland. The city itself. A couple of them were on the way in. Where the partisans were doing their best.
BW: Did you see any other supply aircraft at the time?
JML: No.
BW: Were you flying —
JML: No.
BW: With other aircraft from your same squadron?
JML: There were other aircraft supposed to be there like we were there but I never saw any other planes.
BW: And were you ever, was the aircraft you were in ever hit by ground fire at all? Do you recall any of that?
JML: Oh yes. Hit by the flak. But only very light. Yeah.
BW: Did any of it come near you?
JML: No.
BW: And were any of your fellow crewmen hit at all or injured?
JML: No. There was no hits, no injuries fortunately. Yeah.
BW: So you came back from these operations pretty well unscathed.
JML: More or less. Yeah.
BW: And there were no issues with the aircraft when you landed. Nothing had been disrupted.
JML: Oh yeah.
BW: With the undercarriage for example.
JML: Oh yeah. Yeah. There was marks and that on the plane that had been hit by anti-aircraft fire etcetera but nothing, nothing serious.
BW: Could you feel it when the aircraft was hit?
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And what was that like?
JML: That was only light. Very [pause] how can I can’t describe it? It was very very light anti-aircraft fire.
BW: Presumably like machine guns or rifle fire and things like that. And were you debriefed in the sense were you given information about how successful the drops had been at all?
JML: Oh yes. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: And what sort of things were you told?
JML: As regards the drops etcetera the actual drops that were done were very successful. There was quite, quite a number of aircraft took part in these special drops. I think in one night, I think it was sometime in August, the squadron did lose over a, over the two nights I think they lost four aircraft. Which were either shot down on their way in or shot down on their way back but they lost four.
BW: Did you know any of these crews?
JML: No.
BW: Were you able to befriend or did you get to know any of the other crews while you were stationed at Brindisi?
JML: Not really. We more or less stuck to ourselves, you know. When you’ve got seven of a crew, you know we were all quite friendly.
BW: And were there any other squadrons based with you at Brindisi at the time?
JML: Not, not on Brindisi. There was a [pause] there was a Polish squadron there as well but there wasn’t there wasn’t many of them. Just a few. I can’t remember the number of it but they were based at Brindisi the same as we were.
BW: Were they flying Halifaxes like you?
JML: Yeah.
BW: It must have been quite important for them to be flying supplies into their own, into their own country.
JML: Oh, very much so. Yeah.
BW: After the uprising had finished were you continuing to fly with 148 or did you stop at that point?
JML: No. No. We started, carried on. Back to dropping supplies into Northern Italy where the partisans were and also still supplying Yugoslavia, Greece, Albania which were still occupied by the, by the Germans.
BW: Did you ever land in these places to offload supplies or not?
JML: No. We had, had two or four small aircraft which were stationed at Brindisi and they would. They would fly in to take a couple of secret agents in and land on a bit of land where they could get out and then the small aircraft would take off again and come back to Brindisi.
BW: Were they Lysanders?
JML: Yeah.
BW: The small ones.
JML: That’s the ones.
BW: Did you ever speak with any of the pilots there?
JML: No.
BW: Or crew.
JML: No. No. It was very hush hush.
BW: And once you’d flown these missions and I think it went up until the end of ’44 when the squadron ceased what happened then?
JML: I think just before the end of the, around about Christmas time etcetera we, we were told that we had now done x number of hours which was a tour of operations completed and we as a crew we were being stood down. And we were being sent down to Cairo for a rest period.
BW: How long were you there? In Cairo? Do you know?
JML: Oh, I’ve no idea. Probably a couple of months or so, I think.
BW: What are your memories of your time with the squadron in 1944 and in Cairo when you were off duty?
JML: Yeah. There was four of the crew were still together and myself, Davy Lambert, Mickey Neville and Larry Toft. We, we four were together in Cairo. What as I say happened to the other, the other three I don’t really know.
BW: Because your other three were Canadians, weren’t they? You had Flight Sergeant Toft who was your pilot.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Flight Sergeant Johnstone.
JML: Yeah. He was a Scotsman. Yeah.
BW: Sergeant Jones. Tommy Jones —
JML: Yeah.
BW: Was Canadian. Sergeant George Messenger.
JML: He was a, yeah engineer.
BW: And as you say Sergeant Mickey Neville and —
JML: Davy Lambert.
BW: Davy Lambert.
JML: Jock Johnson, the Scotsman he’s, he stopped with the squadron. Why I don’t know but Jock stopped there. And I’m trying to think what [pause] oh, and George Messenger. He stopped with the squadron. That’s the two isn’t it? They would have stopped with the squadron but they wouldn’t be allowed to fly for a certain amount of time because they’d to have what they called a rest. A rest before they started on their second tour. But other than that I lost. I lost. What Jock Johnston or what George Messenger did I’ve no idea. We other four were kept at Cairo for quite some time. And then Lawrence, the pilot was told that he was going to start flying Dakotas. So we didn’t really know whether he was very happy about it but that’s, that left three of us. And we three were posted home. We had to stop in Cairo ‘til we got information to pick up a ship and prepare to, prepare to sail home.
BW: And would that be 1945 when you —
JML: ’44. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That would be January/February. That’s it, yeah. Definitely.
BW: And do you recall where you were sent to? Where you arrived back in the UK?
JML: I think we landed at Liverpool. Definitely.
BW: And from there I understand you were posted to Kirkham camp near Blackpool.
JML: That’s right. Eventually. Yeah.
BW: And what happened while you were there?
JML: Just, that was, that was the, while we were there the war finished completely. And it became a demob centre.
BW: And you stayed in Lancashire because you met a young woman.
JML: Stayed there awaiting to get demobbed. Yeah.
BW: But you then met a young woman.
JML: Yeah. Aye. Margaret. Yeah.
BW: And so your relationship with her continued and you were married.
JML: Yeah.
BW: But only after a very short time. How long?
JML: I don’t know. Probably six months or something like that. Time I was there we got married. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: And you didn’t fancy staying with the RAF.
JML: No.
BW: And what, when you left did you go on to do then?
JML: I worked for the — what did that come under?
BW: Were you a salesman?
JML: Yeah. I was a salesman but I’m trying to think what I did. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, I became a salesman. I worked for the Burton Group. That’s the best way to put it down. As a salesman.
BW: And did you ever go back to Scotland? Did you ever consider resettling to Scotland?
JML: No. No.
BW: And so you’ve lived and worked in the Blackpool and Preston area for the rest of you time after the war.
JML: Yeah. Until retiring. Until retiring. Yeah. Definitely.
BW: And do you still attend the reunions for your squadron? Do you meet up with your friends?
JML: Aye, we have done until the last twelve months or so but I’m afraid that we’re only got down to two or three. That’s all. They’re the ones that used to go to [pause] what’s it called? The aerodrome.
BW: Elvington? Elvington?
JML: No.
BW: Was it an airfield near here?
JML: No. I’m talking about —
BW: Or the Arboretum.
JML: Not the Arboretum. No. Bloody hell, it’s wild, deary, deary dear. Down near, down near Wolverhampton that’s still going. What’s that big aerodrome?
BW: Cosford. Cosford?
JML: No.
BW: Near Wolverhampton. No.
JML: No. It’s still going there. The aerodrome’s still going. They all land there now. Everything lands there. That’s silly that I can’t remember that. Deary dear.
[recording paused]
JML: Did we say Brize Norton before?
BW: Yeah. At Brize Norton.
JML: Their number is 4624 so they adopted us.
BW: I see.
JML: And the [pause] and they used to go there every twelve months for a reunion.
BW: Until they decided it was —
JML: Well, it got —
BW: Elevated to an operational base and higher security status so it prevented you going.
JML: Stopped us going. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Right.
JML: And your latest award was the Legion d’Honneur. Is that correct? You received the medal from France.
BW: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh aye. Yeah. That’s on there somewhere.
JML: When did you receive that. Was it last year?
BW: I got it through the post but you could have it presented so when we ended the trip to [pause] oh bloody hell.
Other: The Arboretum.
JML: What’s it called? The bloody place where we got it.
Other: The Arboretum.
BW: Where?
Other: The Arboretum.
JML: The Arboretum. Aye. Yeah.
BW: So you had a little presentation while you were there.
JML: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Good.
JML: There was only two of us. You could have it presented or you could have it sent. But Joe, you know, this [unclear] it was his idea that while we were going to the Arboretum that we would have it done then but you didn’t need to do that. You’d just said you’d have it like and you’d get it. The only one I’ve spoken to that got his medal was Stanley. He lives right down south. He was a dispatcher as well you know and he had his presented by the local [pause]
BW: And was he on your squadron as well?
JML: Oh aye.
BW: But you never met him while you were serving in Italy or Algeria.
JML: No. I didn’t know him. No.
BW: Ok. That’s all the questions I have for you Jim. So, thank you very much for your time.
JML: It’s alright.
BW: For your recollections.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Very much appreciated.
JML: We had a good trip to France didn’t we?
Other: Yes. We did. Yeah.
JML: Bob and I and Margaret.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
JML: Somebody wrote, it must have been some paper. I don’t know which one it was. Wanted to meet somebody from the RAF and that that had done a drop in this place in France. Somebody from, was an ex, I think it was an ex-RAF man himself. Buck. A Frenchman of course. So, Stanley, the one I was talking about, the wing commander’s wife of what do they call it, squadron.
Other: [unclear]
JML: At Blida, somehow or other got in touch with us. The person who had put this advert on to me. Anyway, she and her husband and the one I just mentioned, Stanley were trying to find out who actually made the, made the drop. Anyway, we couldn’t find out because as we said it was top secret unless you knew the special names and that etcetera. But anyway they decided to go so Bob and I and Margaret plus Sally Ann and her husband and Stanley went to France to this village.
Other: Sigoyer, it was called.
JML: Sigoyer, that’s right love, you know. It was unbelievable. You’d thought we’d won the war, won the war on our own wouldn’t you. The way they looked after us.
Other: Yeah. They did very good.
JML: It was brilliant. That was three years ago now since we been there.
Other: Maybe more. Four now.
JML: Pardon?
Other: Maybe four.
JML: Maybe four. Yeah.
Other: They took us they took you to one of the canisters that had been dropped.
JML: Oh, aye. Definitely. Yeah.
Other: To the Resistance.
JML: Yeah. It was, it was a good trip was that. Yeah.
Other: The mayor of Gap and all the fire, firemen and all the services from the, from the town and the village. All came out and sang and they had a commemorative service.
JML: Took us in a truck. Another truck.
Other: [unclear]
JML: Another truck or what they called it, didn’t they? Up the mountain.
Other: Yeah.
JML: To where the actual drop was done.
Other: Yeah.
JML: Where the men used to hide. Yeah. It was very interesting.
BW: I bet you’d have rather been in the aircraft though than on the ground with the Resistance though, wouldn’t you?
JML: Oh. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. The, the girl that received the message, this, talking 1943 probably ‘43 maybe ’44. The BBC used to send messages out in code, and this woman who was the owner of the hotel, wasn’t she love? The daughter it was. My age now. But when she was, I think she was either fourteen, fifteen she picked the message up on the BBC that there was going to be a drop. It’s all in code you see. A certain a night, you know. So she was there, this lady. Told us all about it, didn’t she? Can’t remember what the code was. It doesn’t matter.
Other: I think it was something like the leg has fallen off the chair.
JML: Oh, that was it. Aye. It was code anyway.
Other: Something like that.
JML: Yeah. And it was ready for picking up or something like that. That was the code for that area.
Other: It’s a bit like something off, “Allo. Allo.”
JML: Yeah.
BW: Do you recall the lady’s name?
JML: Oh, no. No. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: So that’s, that would be a very unique experience to have met somebody who you dropped supplies to.
JML: Oh aye. I mean they took us in this four wheeled drive thing up the mountain as far as you could go. We had to walk the rest of the way and showed us exactly where the drop was made. And we were high up of course but in the valley below the mountain there were some caves and that’s where all the stuff was hidden away from the Germans. It was very interesting. Really interesting. Yeah.
BW: And they managed to survive in conditions like that?
JML: Yeah.
BW: Under occupation.
JML: Yeah. You’d have thought we won the war on our own the way they treated us. They were fantastic. Bob and Margaret still keep in touch with the school teacher. Get a card from her every now and again. Yeah. Oh, they really made a right good do of it.
BW: Brilliant.
JML: But the [pause] when we went to the France as a group, the special duties, they made a big song and dance about it. It was good. It was quite a [pause] there must have been about a dozen. A dozen or more went on the thing, but Brize Norton, the aerodrome, they supplied a guard of honour. Quite a, quite a guard of honour. And that was, that was well, the village itself were alright. They gave us all a medal of some description. I don’t know what it was. From the village. And we got the — what do you call it?
Other: Freedom of the town.
JML: Freedom of the town as well, you know. Gave us a medal for the freedom of the town. I’d like, I’d like to have gone back there as well but I’m getting too old for that sort of thing. Travelling. Old age catches up. Yeah.
BW: Right. As, I say that’s, that’s all the questions I have for you, Jim. So thank you very much again for your time.
JML: I’m sorry I couldn’t find —
BW: That’s alright.
JML: More of the stuff I thought I’d kept for you to see.
BW: That’s alright. Thank you.
[recording paused]
JML: And we just got on, we got on the river. And we just flew low following the river. We knew the river went into Warsaw after we’d made our way across [pause] what are the bloody mountains called? On the way in to Warsaw. After that it was very very, well, all hilly and that but somebody told us, one of the Warsaw blokes said, ‘Just get as low as you can on the river itself,’ which is the Vistula, ‘And that will take you right into the heart of Warsaw.’ So, well Laurie the pilot, as soon as we had crossed the mountains just put the nose down and got as low as he could and followed the river right into the heart of Warsaw. Yeah.
BW: So this was how you found the target?
JML: Yeah.
BW: I think, are they the Tatra Mountains because one of them, are they the Tatra Mountains in Poland. I think. But anyway, you come over the mountains, drop the nose, drop the aircraft down to presumably —
JML: River height.
BW: Fifty or a hundred or less.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And then after a certain distance because of course you’re following the river a little bit you see the outskirts of the town and you count the first of a series of bridges up the river.
JML: That was us. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Do you recall how many bridges? Was it three? Four?
JML: I think it was the third bridge but I’m not very sure you know. Yeah.
BW: Find the third bridge and turn left.
JML: And then that was the heart. That was the heart of the city. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: So, you, as the pilot was flying in obviously straight and level over the river he’s going to have to climb to make the turn over the, over the bridge. Otherwise he’s going to dip the wing into the river, isn’t he? So —
JML: Yeah. Well, what Lawrence did he, he knew what he had to do his job so what he did instead of dropping the parcels etcetera, etcetera, etcetera he didn’t. He carried on a bit further up the river because he knew where his target was. And when he turned around to drop the stuff in he knew then, what he told us about, he was on his way home. If he dropped the things on his way in it would have meant he would have to turn and then turn around and head for home. But Lawrence didn’t. He carried on, came back to the target area, flew over the target area, dropped what he had to do and he was on his way home then and I could, that’s what I said, I’m in, I’m in the rear turret as we were leaving and it was just a mass of flames. The city itself. I could just see it, you know. Yeah. But that’s what he did and that was, that was why we got away with it, you know because a lot of them got, when they got in got shot down unfortunately over the target area.
BW: So this is because the Germans or even the let’s say pro-German forces and possibly even the Russians knew which route the supply aircraft would come in.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And so Lawrie was avoiding that.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Flying further up the river.
JML: Just went straight on. Yeah.
BW: Made the turn over the city.
JML: Yeah.
BW: Instead of over the river.
JML: Yeah.
BW: And came straight over the target, made the drop and was straight out.
JML: On his way out.
BW: As opposed to having to turn over the target.
JML: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: That’s a smart move.
JML: It was a smart move. Definitely. Yeah. But there was a lot of politics involved in that part. The story goes that, well it’s in writing that Stalin wouldn’t allow the RAF planes to land in Russia. So whether that’s right or not I don’t know but that’s the story. That’s the story anyway and that’s why they lost so many bloody aircraft. Instead of being able to just go in, drop the bombs, turn into Russia and drop. Go on Margaret.
BW: And that was the profile you flew each time on those drops was instead of following the expected route you fly further up the river and make the turn later.
JML: That’s what Lawrence did, anyway. Yeah [pause] She’s off again. Aye.
BW: And even though it was at night you were able to see vividly the flames and flashes over the city.
JML: Terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Terrible. Well, we were flying that low, you know. I mean in Bomber Command you’re twenty thousand feet in the air. Fifteen thousand feet in the air. We were just above the drop. I think it was three hundred feet. I think it was. Either three hundred or four hundred feet and then we dropped the, dropped the stuff. Yeah.
BW: Right. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with James McKenzie Leith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALeithJM170112
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:11:41 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
James McKenzie Leith was a swimming instructor before he joined the RAF. He trained as a gunner and was posted to 429 Squadron at RAF Leeming. On their first operation their aeroplane was damaged and they attempted an emergency landing but this was interrupted and they ditched in the sea. James deployed the dinghy and directed the crew to safety. He became a member of the Goldfish Club. His second pilot went on his second dickie trip and was killed in action. They got another new pilot and were deployed to 624 Squadron on Special Duties and then on 148 Squadron also on Special Duties dropping supplies and agents into occupied areas. When dropping supplies during the Warsaw Uprising James had a very close view of the burning city.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Egypt
France
Great Britain
Italy
Poland
North Africa
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Algeria--Blida
Egypt--Cairo
England--Yorkshire
Italy--Brindisi
Poland--Warsaw
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943-11-27
1944
1945-08
1944-09
1945
148 Squadron
429 Squadron
624 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
ditching
Goldfish Club
Halifax
RAF Dishforth
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Stormy Down
Resistance
training
Warsaw airlift (4 August - 28 September 1944)
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/907/11149/AKemleyHJS171031.1.mp3
e690f4a5c8a38b4ff8027e68aa34a380
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kemley, Bob
Harold Joseph Sydney Kemley
H J S Kemley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bob Kemley (b. 1921, 128489 Royal Air Force) He flew operations as a navigator with 427 and 432 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kemley, HJS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RP: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Rob Pickles, the interviewee is Bob Kemley. The interview is taking place at Mr Kemley’s home in Sherborne, Dorset on the 31st October 2017. Also present is Carolyn Millier.
BK: My daughter
RP: The daughter of Bob. Good morning, and welcome Bob, thank you for inviting me to your, your home.
BK: My pleasure.
RP: Um, would like to start really I think, if you could tell us a little bit of, when and where you were born and what led you to joining the RAF, if you’d like to start at that point?
BK: I was born in Lewisham, in London, South East London, where I stayed until I was eighteen or nineteen, then I joined the air force in, when, 19 [pause] 40? Can’t remember now you know.
RP: Can you remember what persuaded you to join the RAF?
BK: No, I was just attracted by it, yes.
RP: What, the, the usual reason, [laughs]?
BK: Yes, yes. Just trying to recall where I started, I know I was at - I had to go to Lords for one thing, for the interview or something, Lords Cricket Ground, um, then I did my ITW at Aberystwyth, on the Welsh coast, um, went to OTU at Gaydon which was a satellite of Wellesbourne Mountford in the Midlands, then I was posted to 427 Squadron at Croft in North Yorkshire.
RP: What year would that be? Can you remember?
BK: Oh lord [pauses] ‘41, ‘40? ‘41 I think.
RP: Ok, and this was, this was a new squadron?
BK: Oh yes, yes, and then it moved down to um, oh, what’s south of Middleton St. George? I’ve forgotten these places, near Thirsk and Northallerton, I’ve forgotten what it was called now, oh Leeming [emphasis].
RP: Oh RAF Leeming, yes, yes, yeah.
BK: Yes, and that’s where I stayed until, I joined the squadron outside York, 42- The 427 was in Leeming, and then I went to 432 Squadron, I was the navigation officer.
RP: You were the navigation officer, can you remember the first raid that the squadron went on?
BK: [Pause] My first what?
RP: Your first raid was to where?
BK: Oh to St Nazaire and then secondly to Lorient, the channel ports at that time, um, where am I, let me just find it [pause] yes, then I started at Germany, Kiel in March “43, then Duisburg, Frankfurt, Duisburg again.
RP: And these were all on bombing operations?
BK: Oh yes.
RP: On bombing operations.
BK: In June ‘43, it’s written down to Le Creusot in the South of France, that was a long trip but a good trip that, er, all - They’re all Germany then Krefeld, Guggenheim [?], Wuppertal, Gelsenkirchen, went to Gelsenkirchen several times.
RP: Did you do a full tour on the squadron then? Did you do the thirty sorties?
BK: I did thirty-four.
RP: Thirty-four, that’s -
BK: Yes, shot down on my last one.
RP: Really? Whereabouts?
BK: Er, south of Chateauroux[?], in France.
RP: So how were you rescued?
BK: I walked to, Bayeux, and met the Americans, I walked to Avranches that’s right at the bottom of the Cherbourg Peninsula, then I met the American army coming down from Saint-Lô.
RP: This was post D-Day then?
BK: Oh yes, yes and er, then they drove me to Bayeux, and the air force then flew me from Bayeux to -
RP: What happened to the rest of the crew?
BK: They all survived but, I never saw any of them again.
RP: Really?
BK: No, no we all went different directions I suppose, where we were posted.
RP: But you didn’t sort of stay as one after the crash?
BK: Didn’t have the chance because -
RP: Because the Germans -
BK: - they posted me to Northern Ireland, dreadful place, took me a long time to get out of there.
RP: But on the crash that you had in France then, once you’d left the aircraft did you all go off in-
BK: Oh yes.
RP: I see, so you didn’t stick together?
BK: It was the middle of the night and dark, and so you had to make you own way.
RP: Oh I see, you make your own - oh right.
BK: Yes, you couldn’t go searching for them.
RP: No, no, ok, well that’s, that’s quite exciting really isn’t it, or were you just- Is it just another- Something else that happened? Did you find it exciting?
BK: [unclear] I always remember the walk in the morning at dawn, lovely morning it was, I enjoyed walking the way I was going, and then, um -
RP: That’s a long way home that isn’t it.
BK: A lad joined me, a Frenchman, and he looked after me for a couple of days.
RP: Oh that was nice. So from- If that was your, your last tour on the Wellington, we’re obviously into June, July “45.
BK: Oh I was onto Halifaxes then
RP: You’re onto Halifaxes then, so what squadron was that with?
BK: 432 Squadron.
RP: And where were you posted then? Was this in Ireland? You said you went, posted -
BK: Over to Nutts-
RP: Knutsford?
BK: Knutsford, is it called? Quackers Bend I used to call it.
RP: In Northern Ireland?
BK: In Northern Ireland
RP: Oh its, no, or is it called, I know the one you mean.
BK: Is it Nutts Corner?
RP: Nutts Corner, that’s it, Knutsford’s in Cheshire isn’t it, yeah, Knutsford yeah, of course it became the airport didn’t it?
BK: That’s right, yes.
RP: It became the airport, yeah.
BK: The main airport there.
RP: But you didn’t like that particular tour then?
BK: No [laughs].
RP: So how did you escape from Ireland then?
BK: Um, I have no idea, how did I- Where did I finish up afterwards? [paper rustles] Have I got it in here? These are all my ops [pauses], oh I was at Shawbury yes, I was on the south at Shawbury, the navigation school as it was at the time.
RP: Oh, so you were, you were a tutor really?
BK: Yes, yes, I was there for quite a time.
RP: And what aircraft was that then, did you? Or a mixture?
BK: Oh I didn’t fly there.
RP: You didn’t fly?
BK: No, not -
RP: It was just a ground school?
BK: Yeah.
RP: So they’re learning principles I guess.
BK: But I was mainly on Wellingtons at that time.
RP: So did you do any sorties on the Halifax?
BK: Any what?
RP: Any sorties on the - You mentioned you flew Halifax, did you do many sorties with them?
BK: Um, oh quite a few, yes, yes, I finished up- I’d done thirty-four and I was shot down, yes.
RP: So what rank were you at that time then?
BK: Flight lieutenant.
RP: You were flight lieutenant, did you finish you career RAF as a flight lieutenant or?
BK: Oh no, no.
RP: Were you a -
BK: I came out in “45.
RP: Yeah, and were you a flight lieutenant when you left?
BK: Yes.
RP: Ah right, ok. So what was your- We’ve looked at your first sortie, so what was your last wartime sortie then, can you remember that one?
BK: Yes, I was shot down on my way to Stuttgart, [unclear] Saint-Paul, Le Mans, oh yes this was the time when we were attacking, the German bases in Northern France, Coutances, [unclear], Le Mans, yes, then back to Germany there.
RP: So if you had to choose between a Halifax and a Wellington, which aircraft did you prefer, or a Lancaster?
BK: I liked them both.
RP: Yeah.
BK: Only did a couple of flights on a Lancaster, didn’t like the Lancasters, not good for a navigator, but, both Wellington and the Halifax were ideally situated for the navigator.
RP: In what way?
BK: Plenty of room.
RP: Ah, room for your maps and?
BK: Oh everything, yes lots of room.
RP: And you had -
BK: Easy access out, I was the first one out when we had to jump, because I opened the escape hatch [laughs].
RP: So, in that crash then, did you actually- Were you- Did you parachute down?
BK: Yes.
RP: You didn’t actually crash with the aircraft?
BK: Oh no, no, no.
RP: No, you jumped out.
BK: Yes, yes.
RP: Ah right, I was going to say, I just wanted to -
BK: We lost our two port engines, they were on fire we had to go, yes.
RP: Right, so was that from ground fire, or had you been attacked?
BK: Fighter
RP: Fighter, yeah.
BK: Yes, I was afraid the fighter might - Of course we were illuminated by the fire of the crash, I could see all the other parachutes, I was the first one up being the navigator over the hatch and um, I could see them all easily, [unclear] in a big circle.
RP: So that was the- This is just to clarify, that the crash that you jumped from was a Halifax?
BK: Yes.
RP: Ah right, ok and that was on 432 Squadron?
BK: Yes, yes.
RP: Ok, so between the Halifax and the Wellington, what was your total number of sorties then?
BK: Thirty-four.
RP: Oh it’s thirty-four combined?
BK: Yes
RP: Oh I see, combined, that’s still quite a lot, because if you did ten you were thought to be lucky weren’t you?
BK: Five.
RP: Five was it? Five, even worse, I thought it was ten, so if you did- Well, in which case obviously everyone wanted to fly with you I would guess?
BK: Yes, er, no, no.
RP: [laughs]
BK: I had a good crew.
RP: Did you keep the same crew, on the Wellington, and then on Lancaster?
BK: Not really, because I became the navigation officer of the squadron, and when I flew then it was with the wing commander, which I- I did a fair number with them but, obviously you couldn’t take all the group leaders, navigator, bomber, and that in one aircraft, yes [pauses], good days.
RP: Yes, would you do it again?
BK: Oh happily, yes.
RP: Yes, everyone I interview says that, they all say they’d do it again. No I mean, obviously in your case it was some interesting times there, but er, what- When you’d finished with the Halifax, why did you move to the Lancaster then? Was that just part of your navigation training or?
BK: No, it was just - No I can’t remember. I only did a couple.
RP: Yeah I just wondered why, if it was a special case, that you were testing something?
BK: Oh I moved to a squadron that had been on naviga - on Lancasters and they then converted back onto Halifaxes.
RP: Oh right.
BK: So I was back on Halifaxes.
RP: So you joined them just as they were changing to Halifax, I see ok, no I just thought it might’ve been special ops or something, that was all. So, you weren’t persuaded to stay in the RAF, when the war ended then?
BK: Oh no.
RP: You didn’t -?
BK: No, I wanted to come back out.
RP: So, what did you come back out to then?
BK: Well, I was in the Ministry of Defence when I joined up.
RP: Oh right.
BK: So, I returned once I’d come, yes.
RP: Ok, so what was your career after that then, what were you?
BK: Er, I stayed with the Ministry of Defence until I retired, yes.
RP: Where was that? Where were you working with them?
BK: Oh, all over the place, I finished up - Do you know I can’t remember these things, where was I?
CM: You finished up at Bicester.
RP: Oh, at Bicester.
BK: Oh yes that’s right.
RP: Yeah, there’s an RAF station there at Bicester, yeah.
BK: Yes, that’s right dear, yes in “45 wasn’t it?
RP: That was a fair old time with MOD then, one way or the other, a life time of ministry of defence [laughs]
BK: Oh well after that too, I was with them before I joined the forces just as a civilian, I went back to where I was, yes.
RP: But obviously, during the work with the MOD you were still involved with the RAF then?
BK: Oh yes, no, no afterwards.
RP: No?
BK: Um, I went to Bath, yes, it was the Admiralty.
RP: Oh yes, yeah the offices.
BK: Or ‘admirality’ as they used to call it in Bath [chuckles].
RP: Ok, well no, I think, yes the log book is something to treasure though, thirty-four sorties is something to, er -
BK: Yes, I’ve got all my logs.
RP: Yes well we’ll have to have a look at that then.
BK: Pardon?
RP: We’ll have to have a look at that, so, er - but obviously from your point of view they were, there were happy memories of good times, of good friends?
BK: Oh lord yes, yes, wouldn’t miss them for worlds.
RP: No.
BK: Yeah, they were good years.
RP: Yeah ok, I mean the -
BK: I’m sure everybody says the same.
RP: Yeah, in the end, despite when you hear all the stories of what’s happened to them, er, I think people still look back on it with, er, you know, happy memories.
BK: Indeed, yes.
RP: Some friends lost I think but obviously friends survive.
BK: That was inevitable but um, [sighs] you got used to that, sometimes you had to expect it yourself.
RP: Yeah, but, the only time you suffered though was when you had to bale out, otherwise you’d gone through all those sorties untouched basically, and even then, I suppose were you injured on the drop?
BK: No.
RP: No, you weren’t.
BK: No, straight-forward jump.
RP: So, you knew what to do, ok.
BK: Yes.
RP: That’s an amazing story, and we’ll have a look at the log book so, for now thank you very much, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Kemley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rod Pickles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AKemleyHJS171031
Format
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00:15:38 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Bayeux
Northern Ireland--Antrim (County)
Great Britain
Description
An account of the resource
Upon joining the RAF in 1940, Bob Kemley trained as a navigator and completed thirty-four operations on Halifaxes, Wellingtons, and Lancasters. He joined 427 Squadron based at RAF Leeming, before moving to 432 Squadron as a navigation officer. On his final operation, the aircraft was shot down, forcing the crew to bale out, and Kemley managed to make his way to Bayeux to fly home. He was later posted to RAF Nutts Corner followed by RAF Shawbury, before resuming a career with the Ministry of Defence after the war.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1945
427 Squadron
432 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
evading
Halifax
Lancaster
navigator
RAF Leeming
RAF Nutts Corner
RAF Shawbury
shot down
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/AFranklinRH180615.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Richard
R Franklin
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Richard Franklin (b. 1923, 1319873, 178702 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a wireless operator / air gunner and later retrained as a navigator.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Franklin and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Franklin, RH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SW: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Sue Walters, the interviewee is Richard Franklin. The interview is taking place at Mr Franklin’s home in Cople, Bedfordshire, on Friday the 15th of July 2018.
RF: I’m quite happy to do this interview and to tell Sue my life in the RAF, particularly in Bomber Command. I knew, when the war broke out, that I would have to go into the services one way or another because I was still, I wasn’t in a reserved occupation, I lived on the farm but I wasn’t actually working on the farm and after the men who, some of the men who worked on the farm teased [?] me about life, what life would be like in the army, if I joined the army, they had served in the First World War, in the trenches and it was horrifying to hear them. So, I decided there and then that no way if I could possibly help it would I go in the army. I didn’t want to go in the navy because I, I’m no sailor and I got see sick when I went on an outing with school down to Poole Harbour. So when the recruiting office opened in Bedford, for the RAF, I went along and I volunteered to join the RAF as aircrew. And from then on my life was taken over by the RAF and I have no regret whatsoever. Unfortunately, a lot of my friends in Bomber Command lost their lives but I was one of the fortunate ones, I survived the war without any undue injuries and then I was so enjoying life in the RAF after the war, when I was travelling out to the Far and the Middle East that I signed on for a further five years and I would’ve signed on for until I was pensionable age, entitled to a RAF pension, had not a tragedy in my family persuaded me to go back home and join the family on the farm. Which is what I did and I’ve been since 1954, which is when I left the RAF, I’ve been a farmer in the village of Cople on a farm, that my father, my grandfather rather took on in 1901. I, my father took the farm, I took it on from him. I have now retired and my son is running the farm and that is the story of my life [laughs]. I did 34, I think it was 34, 44, 34 raids over Germany. 30 was the number of raids you do and then you were what they called “tour expired”, that meant you were finished flying on raids for the time being and I did my 30 and apart from one raid, when we got shot up by a German fighter and were in dire straits, we could’ve crashed into the English Channel or crashed because of the damage to the aircraft and the fact that we couldn’t get the wheels down, the undercarriage down to land but fortunately we had a very good pilot and a very good flight engineer and they got us safely back to England and nobody, nobody in the crew was in anyway harmed at all but I was one, I was the fortunate member of my squadron who survived a whole tour and was happy to stay in the Air Force for the time, for, till after the war. We had bombed Frankfurt and had left, dropped our bombs on the markers that were marking the target and had left the target area and the gunners were relaxing and we were on our way home and all of a sudden there was this God almighty explosion and the starboard outer engine caught fire and a night fighter had come up and they had guns that came up and fired on the underneath of the aircraft and it set the starboard outer engine on fire and fortunately the flight engineer and the pilot between them managed to extinguish the flames and feather the engine and we was, managed to get home on three engines but the fuel tank on the starboard side had been ruptured and we were desperately short of fuel, we knew that and we knew that we stood a very good chance of coming down in the Channel so we all put our Mae West on ready to abandon aircraft if we did but I was in, the fact that I was the wireless operator, I was in touch with the rescue services all the while home, they kept passing frequency beams onto us so they knew where we were. The air sea rescue were alerted but we made it back and then we were told to go to an aerodrome Lakenheath, near Cambridge, where they had sufficient fire tenders and rescue appliances to rescue us if we crashed. We couldn’t get the undercarriage down, so we had to land on the grass, on the side of the runway, fortunately it was a smooth landing and we all climbed out unharmed and that was it, that was the only near go to being killed that I had in the whole time I was in the RAF.
SW: Off you go.
RF: We were met by the station commander, the Group Captain, when we climbed out of the aircraft, and set down and he shook us all by the hand, and said: ‘Well done, chaps, go to the mess and have a good meal and I will see you in the morning’. Which we did. And we were issued with the railway warrants and with our flying gear and all that, with our parachutes, which we had to take with us, we tracked all our way back to Leeming, in Yorkshire, to our airbase, yeah. The one feature of that episode that I have always felt sorry for was the fact, that the flight engineer, who was engaged to a lady who was pregnant, decided that no more would he fly on operations and he went to the Squadron commander when we got back to our base at Leeming and said he was not going to fly anymore and that immediately court martial offence, he was told, you are going LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, you volunteered to do it when you joined the RAF, you’ll be placed under arrest. He was placed into the guard room and that’s the last we saw of him. Until many years later, when I was serving in Transport Command, I met him out in a place called Sharjah, in the Persian Gulf. I was on my way to India and that was a terrible place, it had no facilities and he was, came up to me and said: ‘Hello, Sir’. I said: ‘Who are you?’ and he introduced, I knew straight away who he was and I said: ‘What an earth are you doing here?’ And he said that he had been reduced to the ranks and sent out here as an AC2 to clean aircraft toilets and clean aircraft out as they ferried through and that was his punishment. It was because of him and the pilot that we got back to UK from this bombing raid safely and in one piece and that was the way he was treated. Simply because his future wife had persuaded him not to risk his life again. And one of the reasons I was quite happy to go to the Bomber Command Memorial in Lincoln, because I was told that the names of all the people who were killed or missing were inscribed on the plaques in this memorial and the lady in the desk behind the reception just asked me for this fellow’s name. All I could give her was his name and his address, his home address and she found his name and his permanent address and she gave me a leaflet, telling me on which panel his name was inscribed and also a leaflet which told me when he had been killed, the night he perished along with all his crew and where he is buried and I know now that he is buried in a grave on the outskirts of Berlin along with his six other crewmates. 34 raids as a sergeant. I ended up as a flight sergeant at the end of the raid and then I went into Transport Command, I did a navigation course and I became a Flight Lieutenant, I was commissioned and went to became a Flight Lieutenant and I left the RAF in 1954. I’ve got three logbooks but they’re not all, uhm. These are the ones, that’s, that’s the second raid I went on, that’ll be to Düsseldorf and that’ll be, that was the third one with Berlin and then Frankfurt and Stuttgart and so on. We had to [unclear], then Leipzig, then Frankfurt again, that’s when we got shot up, then Berlin on again, another on Berlin again, Stuttgart there, Frankfurt again, Frankfurt twice in three, twice in three and once on the 18th and again on the 22nd. And Berlin again, then Essen and then this is prior to the second front opening, we were bombing in France, gun emplacements, Villeneuve, Le Bourget, Lens, Düsseldorf again, Karlsruhe, Villeneuve again, Gent, Bloen [?], Louvain, [unclear], Aachen, Bourg Leopold, operation [unclear], and my last, that’s it, my last operation was Arras, that was my thirtieth bombing raid and the second, the second front on the 5th of June we were bombing in Merville, France gun emplacements [?] and that’s when the second front opened. So, that’s and after that I went, I was what they called screened and I became an instructor at Stratford. When I finished my training as a wireless operator, I was posted to 427 Squadron which was an all Canadian Squadron in 6 Group based up on Yorkshire and they were, their standard of discipline was far more lenient and lax, than would have been if I had been on an RAF station and I quite enjoyed my time with the Canadians.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Franklin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sue Walters
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AFranklinRH180615, PFranklinRH1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:16 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Franklin served as a wireless operator and flew 34 operations in Bomber Command over Germany. Describes the only operation on which he risked being killed, when his aircraft was attacked by a German night fighter over Frankfurt. Tells of their flight engineer being accused of Lack of Moral Fibre. Mentions bombing various targets in preparation for the opening of the second front in France. Was posted to 427 Squadron.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
aircrew
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
forced landing
lack of moral fibre
memorial
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Leeming
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/760/10757/ACulkinJ170913.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Culkin, Jean
J Culkin
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Jean Culkin, née Dodds (b.1924), photographs and documents. The collection also contains an album of photographs and newspaper cuttings. Jean Culkin grew up in Sunderland and worked in a reserved occupation. Her husband, John George Mackel Culkin, served as ground crew.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jean Culkin and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Culkin, J
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CH: This interview is being conducted for the international Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt. The interviewee is Jean Culkin. Also present is Sue Kendall, Jean Culkin's daughter. The interview is taking place at [buzz] in Washingborough. Ok. Thank you for agreeing to be, agree to be interviewed, Jean. I just need to say the date is the 13th of September 2017. If you could start by telling me something about you early life, and your family and where you were brought up, please.
JC: I was born in Sunderland. I can't remember the name of the street. I think it was Rosewood Street and it was the West End of Sunderland. I had a sister, my mum and dad. My dad worked for Ringtons and they sent him when I was five years old from Sunderland to Newcastle. I went to school at Newcastle. I left school when I was fourteen. I left school on the Friday and on the Monday I was working. I had to go down to the Bureau and they used to say, ‘What would you like to do, Jean?’ ‘I’d like to work in an office.’ And sure enough that's how I started. Tea girl in an office when I was fourteen. And of course, the war was just around the corner. I didn't want to join the Services. I was a home girl really and that was it. But I left school on the Friday and I started work the following Tuesday in an office as a tea girl. Then you go from that, sort of doing invoices and teaching me to type. I got fed up with that job. I was there for a year. Applied for another job and went on from there. I went to typing school. That was about eight months. I wanted to do shorthand but I couldn't remember all the figures. The alphabet is entirely different and that was it. That’s how I finished. In an office as a typist. There was five or six of us typists, two manageresses and the boss and it was a sweetie factory. And you couldn't be called up because sweeties, sugar that came under the rationing so some of the girls wanted to join the Services and the boss man said, ‘If you want to go you'll never come back.’ Because once you were in this job its government. Yeah. Food. And that was it. I was there. I left when I was twenty one. Yeah. That’s all.
CH: When you were twenty one, what year was that?
JC: I was born in ’24. ’45. No. Was it thirty, ’45?
CH: So, you were working in the sweet factory during the war.
JC: The war was just around the corner. Yes.
CH: The war hadn't actually started.
JC: No. But it was on its way, you know. That’s why some of the girls wanted to join the ATS, the WAAF —
SK: But when the war started you used to sit with a bucket of sand didn’t you? In the dark.
JC: Sorry?
SK: When the war started in Newcastle and they were dropping bombs you had to sit in the factory with a bucket of sand.
JC: Yes.
SK: On your own through the night.
JC: Yes. That’s right.
SK: In case a bomb dropped.
JC: In case [laughs] What I would have done, I couldn’t even work a stirrup pump properly.
SK: No.
JC: You know. The pump. But I’m still here so I must have got through it.
CH: So, when the war started —
JC: Yes.
CH: Where were you working?
JC: This was at the sweetie factory. Yes. Yes.
CH: And you stayed working there throughout the war, did you?
JC: Yes. Yes.
CH: Could you tell me a little bit about working there? What you did.
JC: It was, well the orders used to come from upstairs where the factory was because they had a van that went out to all the sweetie shops and they used to take orders, go back up here and give it to all the guys that made the toffee and the sweets. And halfway through the week one of the ladies would come down and say, ‘Right, this order is for this shop.’ This shop. This shop. Now, the boss used to say, ‘Right. You do that. You do that, and you.’ So we had sort of, you know your own section to do. Yeah. Now —
CH: Did you work shifts?
JC: No. No. It was nine ‘til five. 1 o'clock on a Saturday. Yeah. No half days. No. No. It was quite, quite interesting.
CH: So, during the war did you see much of bombing?
JC: Well, yes because in the garden we had an Anderson air raid shelter and we’d just probably just go to bed about nine, half past nine, 10 o'clock, just get nice and comfortable. Mom and dad were in the front bedroom, my sister and I were in the bedroom and the siren would go and my dad would say, ‘Right. Up.’ Just leave your nighties and dressing gown on and run down the stairs, the back stairs into the Anderson shelter. But my mum would say, ‘Just a minute. I've got to get the case.’ That big, with the policies. Full of policies for the house. Yeah. Anyway, there we were freezing cold. ‘Right. Go on. Get in the shelter.’ And we’d [coughs] excuse me we’d sit in there until the all-clear went. And eventually my dad thought, ‘Right, we'll have to make this comfortable.’ So then he got some cushions from somewhere and we had cushions to sit on instead of the wooden seat and you could sort of lie down. The all-clear would go maybe three, four, 5 o'clock and you’d think, ‘Oh God. Right. Can we go up now?’ ‘Yeah.’ My dad wouldn’t let us leave unless that siren said mmmmm. Go upstairs and my mum said, ‘Right. It's nearly time to go to work.’ Pointless going to bed. It’s 7 o'clock in the morning. Go in the bath and get washed, changed, clean your teeth. Toast. Cup of tea. Off. My sister to the fruit shop at the top of the street where she worked and meto Cowper and Dodsworth where I worked. The sweetie factory.
CH: Cowper and —
JC: Cowper and Dodsworth.
CH: Dodsworth.
JC: Yes. Yes. We never saw Mr Cowper. He lived in Jesmond and he was very rich. We went up there one Wednesday afternoon. Miss Tomlinson, the boss said we’d been invited to Mr Cowper’s house. Jesmond. And we went and, oh it was beautiful. Beautiful. And they had a swing in the garden. The girls would say, ‘Can we sit on here?’ ‘Can we sit there?’ And we had glasses of lemonade and we were there for about two hours. And then Miss Tomlinson, our boss said, ‘Right, girls. We’d better go now.’ Yes. So we all got on the bus and came back to Cowper and Dodsworth and finished off what we were doing. That was Mr. Cowper. Very posh, you know in those days.
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: Yeah. We never saw him at work but it was Mr Dodsworth in the office.
SK: Probably just counting the money.
JC: And Miss, there was a door there, Miss Tomlinson, our boss lady. She was here. And then the typists here. Shorthand typist there and there was Stella McQueen. She was the youngest. She was fifteen.
SK: I wonder where she is now.
JC: She came in one day, she’d only been there about four months and she came in one day and she said, ‘You know my brother. He’s eighteen. He's just been called up for the Air Force and he’s been posted to the Middle East.’ ‘My God.’ I said, ‘What's his name?’ ‘Steve McQueen.’ You can't forget Steve McQueen. And by this time I was writing to your dad. I got a letter and he said, ‘You wouldn't believe it Jean but I've got an airman here called Steve McQueen and he says he has a sister that works with Jean Dodds. In the Middle East.
SK: Oh, wow.
JC: Because Jack’s squadron was with Monty. You know, they were behind. Monty was on, all the Halifaxes were here. Now, how's that for a coincidence, eh?
SK: Yeah.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. That was it.
SK: Didn’t he meet somebody who knew Auntie Anne who lived in Schimel Street? Dad.
JC: What? In the RAF?
SK: When he was away he met somebody.
JC: I don’t know.
SK: And he said his sister lived in Schimel Street and that he had —
JC: Is that how they got —
SK: Somebody Dad was with in the RAF who, who knew. Knew Schimel Street. At the top of the other end, I think.
JC: I can't remember that, sweetheart. No.
CH: Can we go back to when you were working in the factory?
JC: Cowper and Dodsworth. Yes.
CH: Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
JC: The delivery man, yes. It was horse and cart. Well, couldn't get petrol. Yes. And his name, the driver, Ambrose and Ambrose used to come to the office every morning at half past seven because there was always somebody around and say, ‘Right. I'll be back in an hour. If I can have my order sheet. As soon as I get the order sheet I’ll get the sweeties from over there in jars. So I can put it on my van.’ With the horse. Yeah. Yeah. I think he was about seventy, Ambrose. Yeah. But he was lovely. I’ll always remember him. Nice old man. Yeah. Load the back of the cart with all the jars of sweeties and paradise fruits and peppermint, you know, bon bons. Yes. Yeah. What else can I tell you? It was nine to five. An hour for lunch.
SK: How much did you earn?
JC: Seven and six. What’s that today? I mean, but in those days you know, I mean, I think my dad was on about two pound ten shillings a week. The rent at Rothbury Terrace, seventeen and six a week. I don’t know. Upstairs flat you see.
CH: What did your father do?
JC: He worked for Ringtons Tea. He was, there again a van. They had the van. If you get the tea packet out I’ll show the lady, and the horse. And he used to start, he had to be, 7 o’clock he used to start work. He used to get to the factory, go around the back and the young boy would give him the horse and my dad would come down with the horse and the van there and he’d have to put the horse in to the van and kit it all out and what not. Yeah. And then the van boy who was with my dad would say, ‘Right, we're off, Mr Dodds, are we?’ Sure enough, yeah. He’d have his order for where he had to go. Gateshead. You know. All around. Heaton. Yeah. And he’d be out. I often wonder, he used to get terrible chilblains because he used to have to knock on doors. He used to wear mitts. My mum made him mitts but they didn’t get rid of the chilblains. Yeah. And he used to have to be out on the street at 8 o'clock and he’d get back about 7 o'clock at night. As you did in those days, you know. It wasn't a nine to five job. And I used to think, my God in all the rain because there was no front on the front of the van in those days. It was just the horse and the boy by him, you know. Helping him. Yeah. He must have got soaked. That's why he had blooming chilblains. Yeah.
CH: How old were you when you met Jack?
JC: Sixteen.
CH: Could you tell us a little bit about meeting him?
JC: Yes. I can tell you an awful lot.
SK: You’ll hear his life story.
JC: I lived in [laughs] I lived in Newcastle. Right. And I had a cousin, my cousins all lived in Sunderland and Dorothy, she was three years older than me, she wrote to me. No telephones in those days. She wrote to me and said, “Why don't you come through this weekend? I've got some friends coming.” We used to play Newmarket. Cards. I said yeah. I wrote back and said, “Alright. I’ll come.” So, I packed my little case. That was on the Saturday, 2 o’clock and went to Dorothy and she said, ‘Wait, I've got some friends coming tonight. There's Danny Culkin and he's got a nephew. He’s in the Air Force.’ I said, ‘Oh, OK.’ ‘He doesn't know anyone here. So, you know, play Newmarket cards. Snap. Anything.’ And sure enough Uncle Danny came with another friend and Jack. And Jack. Oh my God. That was it. It went [pat pat]. But he was so shy. He really was so shy. Really. There's some photographs in there you can see. He, he had three sisters. You’d think he’d be used to women but he was with boys you see. He joined the RAF at fifteen. It was all boys, and he was just very shy. I met him twice. He didn't know me. Not really. He knew my name playing cards and what not. And then eventually you see, the war was coming on and Dorothy wrote and she said, ‘Do you know what, Jean? I think, why don’t you come through this weekend? I don't know how long Jackie will be here.’ Because his uncle said he might be going soon. ‘Where are they going?’ ‘I don't know.’ So I did. I went for that weekend and funnily enough Dorothy said to me, ‘I'm washing my hair tonight, Jack so I can't take you to the bus stop. I'll tell you what. Our Jean will take you.’ Oh God. Pouring with rain outside. Head square, riding mac on and we walked. It was only a ten minute walk to the bus station because he had to go to Durham. You see his squadron was at Durham. He’d finished his training by the. And then the bus came for Durham. He said, ‘Oh, I have to go.’ Then he gave me a kiss. And he sat on the back seat on the bus and he just waved like that. And that was it for the next three years.
SK: Five years [laughs]
JC: Five [laughs] Three and a half years I think because then Dorothy had written to me and said, ‘Hey, how’s about, they’re always on —’ because her fiancé who was taken prisoner of war, Ralph in Germany. He'd only been in the Army, he was called up, he’d only been I think eighteen months and he was a prisoner of war. So Dorothy said, ‘Tell you what, Jean. Why don't you write to Jackie Culkin because I'm writing. I'll send you his address.’ So, I thought, ‘Yeah. Ok.’ So I started writing. And that was it. For the next three and a half years. At the start he didn’t know me. I knew him. He didn’t know me. And that was it. And we’d been writing how many? Two years. Two years, because he was away what, three, three years, wasn't he? So, two years we'd been writing and then he said, “Why don't we get engaged? By proxy.” Yeah. Alright then. So, we got engaged by proxy.
CH: How old were you both then?
JC: Twenty. And Jack was twenty one. Yeah. Twenty one and a half. There was eighteen months between us. And we had the proxy engagement party at my cousin Dorothy's house and Jack’s mum, a wonderful cook, she made cakes. My mum made scones. Rationing, you know. And that was it. I didn't have a ring so Jack’s, Nanna Culkin said, ‘Look, Jean, here, take mine off.’ Gave it to dad and he put it on my finger. He said, ‘Right. You’re now engaged to my son.’ Lovely. But I hadn’t seen him. I mean, it was just writing. You see, I think when you write letters you open your heart out, don't you? And that was it. Then of course how long did I have to wait? It was another eighteen months before he came home because don't forget he was in the Middle East and the war was not, and eventually Shirley the youngest sister wrote a letter and said, ‘Our Jack’s coming home so you'll have to get some holiday.” Which I did. God. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. It must have been worse for him because Nanna Culkin, she was a wonderful cook and I think she spoiled him when he first came, you know. After the war. After the desert he wouldn't eat. And I could never ever buy a tin of corned beef. He used to say, ‘Jean, never ever buy corned beef. Bully beef.’ That's what they lived on. He wouldn't have corned beef in the house [laughs] He wouldn’t. Yeah. So that was it more or less. I had to go through to Sunderland of course and he got there on the Saturday afternoon. I thought he would open the front door. Don't forget I hadn't seen him all this time. Just writing. But he hadn’t and it was his sister that opened the door. ‘Oh, come on in Jean’ I had my little attache case for my whats, my nightdress, no pyjamas I think in those days, dressing gown blah blah and his mam came through. She said, ‘He's not well.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘He's been sick all night. He’s killed the goldfish.’ ‘Pardon?’ The goldfish was in a bowl in the main bedroom and he was sick. There was nowhere to be sick. So when he came he said, ‘I've killed Goldie.’
SK: I think it was nerves because it was such a long time.
JC: It was because, you know what nanna was like for cooking and I think she gave him too much food and he hadn't been used to food. Anyhow, I had to sleep with the girls in that room and Jack was in the main bedroom and nanna and grandad were in the spare room and of course nanna, you know what she was like. Up in the morning. ‘Our Jack, come on get up. Jean’s already up.’ I got up, went to the bathroom, changed, you know. Cleaned my teeth and whatever. Did my hair.
SK: And you still hadn’t seen him.
JC: No. I still hadn’t seen him. I was in the kitchen where the cooker was there. Nanna was doing the breakfast and he came down clunk clunk clunk. Oh my God. He just came over and just said, ‘Oh, how are you?’ And just kissed me on the cheek. That was, so Nanna said, ‘What do you want for breakfast, son?’ He said, ‘Nothing. Just toast.’ And he was looking at me and you see it was just writing but he used to say when you write to someone you pour your heart out, don’t you? And that was it. We had toast and a cup of tea and mum said, ‘Right. Go for a walk. Dinner,’ this was Sunday, ‘Dinner is on the table at 1 o'clock.’ And when she said 1 o'clock, she meant it. So, she said, ‘Go on. Take take your girlfriend out.’ So we had Thompson’s Park and he was actually holding my hand. Yeah. And then he said, ‘Can I kiss you?’ I said, ‘If you wish.’ And that was it, and he looked at his watch and he said, ‘Five to one. We’d better get home.’ Because it was only a ten minute walk and of course the dinner was on the table and all the family were there, you know. His sisters and two brothers. That was it. And then I was going to help Aunt Anne wash up. You know, do the washing up and mam said, ‘No. Go on our Jack. Get out. Get yourself down to Seaburn by the seaside. Fresh air.’ And we spent the afternoon at Seaburn. Walking in Seaburn.
SK: But then unfortunately the two families didn’t get on, did they?
JC: Not really. At the time, don’t forget we were engaged, weren’t we and my dad said, ‘Right, we’ll make —’ There was still rationing going on, ‘We can have a little wedding, you know. It’ll be, we can't afford a lot. At Newcastle, St Gabriel’s?’ ‘Yeah. That’s right.’ Jack said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. I don’t mind.’ Through to Sunderland and mum said, ‘No. No. You’ve got to get married in the church at the end of road.’ And I said, ‘Well, my dad wants, I've lived in Newcastle and all my friends are there.’ No. Arguments started. Your dad had, he'd gone back to wherever and that was it. He said, ‘I can't stand this, Jean.’ He used to come home every other weekend because you only got so many railway warrants a year, didn’t you. ‘I can’t stand this.’ So, he came one weekend. He said, ‘I’ll be at Sunderland this weekend. Ok?’ So, I thought, ‘Right. Yes, ok. I’m going through. See what’s going to happen and I got there and there’s Jack’s sister and mam and his other sister sitting by the window. You know, on the settee. And he said, he looked awful. I said, ‘What's wrong?’ He said, ‘I've had a busy week at work.’ He said, ‘But can I speak to you privately? Is it alright mum? I’m just going to take Jean upstairs. I’ve got something to say.’ And I thought, ‘That’s it. It’s off.’ So, we went upstairs, sat on the bed and he closed the door and then he said, ‘Don’t say anything.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Shush.’ And then he opened the door. He thought somebody might have gone upstairs listening. So, he said, ‘Don’t get upset. I said downstairs the wedding is off for the time being. It isn't. It’s on. We’re getting married August the 21st, Weston Super Mare Town Hall. I’ve got a special licence. I’ve booked a room in a farmhouse just on the outskirts of RAF Locking.’ Which was the Air Force then. ‘So that’s it. I’ll send you your ticket.’ How the heck he did that from Weston Super Mare I don’t know but he did. So, I got the, I got the train. I packed my case and I had it for two weeks holiday and my mom said, ‘Right. Send us a card when you get there to make sure you’re alright.’ So, I said, ‘Yes. Alright.’ Got the bus from Simonside [unclear] to Newcastle Central. I think it was the 10 o’clock train to Bristol Temple Meads because Jack said he’d meet me there at 4 o’clock when the train got in. And I’d got my case and this and that with me and I thought, ‘My God, what if he isn’t there? I’ve got ten shillings in my purse and he’s not there.’ I thought, Oh God. And it was hours, you know. The 10 o’clock train got in to Temple Meads at four and sure enough he was there. Oh, thank God. So, I said, ‘What now?’ He said, ‘Right. We’ve got to get the bus to Weston Super Mare.’ Now to RAF Locking it’s the village. t’s actually, it’s a farmhouse and she rents out rooms so we’ve got that for the next week. And then we’re off to Bournemouth for a week. Ok?’ ‘Alright then.’ So, I take my little case in and Jack said, ‘Right. We’re getting married on the Wednesday so I’ll see you —’ This was Saturday. Sunday. He said, ‘I’ll see you on Monday morning. I want to bring my civvy stuff here because I’ve got to lock up and clear from the station.’ So, I said, so I was all by myself in this strange place but the landlady was very nice. She took me around where the farm was, you know. It was growing apples and stuff and whatnot. I wasn’t in the least interested but you’ve got to say yes. Yeah. So I was in B&B for two days and then your father came with his civvies and what not. He wouldn’t get married in uniform. I said, ‘Oh, please.’ ‘No. No. No. I wear a uniform all day.’ Hmmn hmmn. And he wouldn’t. He just had his best suit on, you know. RAF tie. He left me there, and then he came on the Wednesday morning. We were married at 3.15. He came and he put his case in and his uniform ready to go back to work and what not and on the morning of the wedding I didn’t see, I saw him that night and he said, ‘Right. I’ll see you tomorrow.’ And he came, we were married at quarter past three and he came at 12 o’clock. The lady made him a cup of tea and whatnot. You know, the landlady and whatnot and then we got the bus into Weston Super Mare to the Town Hall. We had to be there at 3.15 and the best man was a corporal. He was getting married on the following Wednesday. So we went, and he had his fiancé. She wanted to meet me. So we go in front of the registrar and he said, ‘Right. Yes. Alright. Sergeant Culkin?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘And you are Jean Dodds.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘And you are —’ What was his name? Oh God. I can’t remember his name now. I can’t remember the best man’s name but he was, he was a corporal. Yes. That’s right. And the registrar and, oh Florence, his fiancé was there as well. She was one of the witnesses, and the registrar said, ‘Right. Yes.’ And he said to Florence, ‘How old are you, Florence?’ She said, ‘I’m eighteen.’ He said, ‘You can not be a witness. You’re eighteen. You’ve got to be twenty one.’ You did in those days. So the registrar said to one of the clerks, ‘You’re going to have to get somebody.’ So we walked down the street and this man, ‘Can you register the wedding with us?’ And he came in. Who he was I don’t know. Yes. And that was it. We got married and the registrar said, ‘It is exactly the same as a church wedding. We’ve got no hymns, we’ve got no bells and we’ve got no confetti but it is legal. Oh, and by the way the Bishop of Bath and Wells is in the next office. Would you like him to officiate?’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ And Jack said, ‘No. Would you get on with it please.’ And he wouldn’t have the Bishop of Bath and Wells. Next door. I thought well this is it, you know. I thought it was just the same as the church wedding but there’s no hymns, no bells, no nothing. But it is legal. Yeah.
CH: So nobody knew you were getting married.
JC: No. So we got outside and John, the best man, John Turner, he said, ‘Right. I've got to go. I've got to see where Florence is. She's around here somewhere.’ So off they went. He said, ‘I’d better take a photograph.’ We didn't have a camera. So, he took the photograph. Otherwise, we wouldn't have that photograph. So off they went and your dad said, ‘I'm starving.’ And I said, ‘I'm absolutely parched.’ He said, ‘First of all there’s a Post Office over there. Let’s go over, get a card each. One to your mum and dad and one to my mum and dad.’ Which we did. “Dear mum and dad, arrived safely. Yes, Jack met me at the station. Oh, by the way we were married at 3.15 this afternoon. See you in two weeks. Love Jean and Jack.”
CH: Wonderful.
JC: So this, this is what he wrote to his mum and dad. A card. That was it.
SK: Nanna would have loved that.
JC: Eh?
SK: Nanna Culkin would have loved that.
JC: [unclear] Well, she’d have been, you know. So we did and I said, ‘Now what?’ He said, ‘Oh, let’s go and have something to eat.’ So we had, remember Fortes? The catering people? Before your time. Fortes. Yeah. There was a cafeteria. Straight in there. Tea for two. Steak, egg and chips. Brown bread and butter. White bread and butter. No, I don't think we had a cake afterwards. No. Don't forget things were still rationed.
SK: You didn’t have any money, did you?
JC: No. I had, I think I had ten shillings and your father had forty. Forty quid. A lot of money.
SK: But luckily dad found some jewellery, didn’t he?
JC: No. It was a cigarette box. We’d had, we finished with Locking. The village of Locking. Then we had to get to [pause] where was it? Bournemouth. That was it. We had to get to Bournemouth. So we had to get, I think we got the bus to Bournemouth because we had a room for four days, five days, I think in Bournemouth. Yeah.
SK: Where did dad find the —
JC: Oh, yeah. That was, we were out one morning walking and we said, ‘Right. Let’s go and have a cup of tea.’ It was all tea in those days not coffee and he, he knocked something and I said, ‘Well, that’s shiny. What the heck’s that?’ And it was a cigarette case. Picked it up, opened it, nothing inside. So, he said, ‘Hey, I know. What if I find a jeweller shop? Maybe we could sell.’ I said, ‘Can’t you take it to the police?’ ‘No. Finders keepers.’ So, we went into this little shop and they said, ‘I’ll give you —’ I think it was five pounds. So, we had five pounds. Yeah. That made us rich. I didn't have any money left by then but your dad had his fiver.
SK: Didn't dad by a silk shirt or something?
JC: Oh, that was, that was our last day at Bournemouth. There was a sale on at this gent’s shop. We were looking in the window and he said, ‘Oh, look at that shirt.’ It was silk. Brown. A very light brown with a little stripe in. I think it was about three pounds. Something like that. I said, ‘Oh, go on. Get it.’ So he, yeah he got, out of that money that we got for the cigarette case we went to the cinema with that and we were able to eat. Don't forget we were only B&B. Then he bought this shirt. Yes. Silk shirt. It was lovely. It was a fawny brownie.
SK: So, somebody’s probably at home now saying oh that silk shirt —
JC: Yeah. That shirt. So that was Bournemouth. Yeah. That was it.
SK: Well done, mum.
JC: Do you reckon?
[recording paused]
CH: OK. Jane, if you could tell me something about your husband, Jack. Please.
JC: Yeah. He was born in Sunderland, 14th of May 1923. He had three sisters and two brothers. They lived in a council flat in the East End of Sunderland. His dad was a tugboat skipper. He used to bring the big ships into the River Wear, you know and he was on, I suppose shift work. He couldn’t, he didn’t, never had a nine to five job. Yeah. Dad was lovely. Yeah. As I say three sisters and two brothers. Two brothers. So six children altogether. Yes. But the flat was so small that his two brothers had to go and live with an auntie. Aunt Anne at the other end of town. It was only a two-bedroom flat you see and you can't have boys and girls sleeping together. No good. Yeah. Then he went to a local school and then he went to Sunderland Junior Tech. I think he was fifteen. Yeah. He was fifteen when he was [pause] Yeah he was fifteen years old and he told me that he was coming out of the gate at night, you know, after school and there was this man standing giving out leaflets and he gave it to all the boys. All these boys got a leaflet. So when he got home mum was, ‘Empty your pockets.’ Marbles and everything and there was this piece of paper in there and she had a look in there and said, ‘Oh, I'll let dad have a look at this.’ So when dad came in from work about 8 o'clock that night he said, ‘Oh, look they’re wanting, it’s the Royal Air Force. They’re wanting apprentices. What do you think about that, Jack?’ He said, ‘No. I want to be a draughtsman. I want to go to sea.’ He said, ‘Well, no. Look. Look. What I'll do I'll write a letter to this address and tell them blah blah blah and we may get a reply. We might not.’ Sure enough the next week there came a reply and it was a railway warrant. He'd never been out, he’d never been out of Sunderland. He was fifteen. First time on a train on his own. Down to King’s Cross to see the RTO which is what it said on this paper and the RTO took him to the other side of the station and he got a train to RAF Halton. And that's when it all started. He met other guys and what not. I think he was there for about two weeks. Did PE and just, they were just talking about the RAF and what they wanted to be, you now. He had a medical. He passed the medical. And then they said, ‘Right. You can go home now and we’ll let you know.’ So getting home he told mum and dad and they said, ‘Oh, that’s it then.' Sure enough a week later there was a train warrant for RAF Halton and that was the beginning.
CH: And how old was he then?
JC: I think he was sixteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. So, from the very beginning because the very first time I saw him before he went to war he had sort of silver thing on here and that was to say he was an apprentice. Part of the uniform. Because I used to think that's funny, normally you get stripes or what not but it was on the arm. Yeah. And being shy I didn't like to ask him, ‘What’s that for?’ That's about it, I think.
CH: Did he tell you much about his time at RAF Halton? He was known as a Halton brat wasn't he?
JC: That's right. Yes. A brat. Right. There's a lovely photograph in there if you want to look at it. Yes. All boys. All boys. Yeah. He enjoyed it. I think at the first week he was actually there I think they went into this huge hall and there were these guys sitting at a table and as you came you know along here you sat there and they’d say, ‘What would you like to do if we accept you in the Royal Air Force?’ He said, ‘I like cars. I like bicycles.’ ‘Engineering.’ And that was it. So he was put on a course for airframes and engines. That was it, you know. Did all his training there and everything. Getting up the PTI used to come into the room where all the guys were sleeping. I think it was six o'clock. ‘Right. Out of bed, shorts on, toilet, we're going for a run.’ Summer and winter 6 o'clock. And he ran, I think for about a mile. Get back. Straight into the shower. Get your work clothes on, your overalls and then have breakfast and then go to your classroom. And that was it until about 5 o'clock at night. Then probably have homework, then have dinner, change of clothes, have another shower, change of clothes, and then do your homework ready for the next day. And that was it. Yeah. So a busy time. Yeah.
CH: So, did you know Jack then when he was apprentice?
JC: Not really. Not really. I knew with my cousin I knew of him you see. His name and whatnot but that was about it. No.
CH: Did you meet up with him when he came back on leave?
JC: Yes. Of course, in those days leave was few and far between, you know. A forty-eight if you were lucky. And there was one weekend I was through at my cousin’s because she had written me to say, “Jackie Culkin is coming this weekend. You’d better come because you might not see him for a month.” So I went that weekend and the usual thing, you know playing cards, you know and whatnot. And that was the last time I saw him until three and a half years later. He didn't realise at the time that was embarkation leave. But of course, you can’t, you don’t say anything, you know. Yes. That was embarkation leave. Yeah. So that was when I started writing. I thought I’d carry on because my cousin, her fiancé had been taken prisoner so she said, ‘I’ll write to Ralph, Jean but you’ve got to, you know start writing to Jack.’ And he told me the last time he saw England, because two of the guys were quite well to do and they had a car, a two-seater racing car and so one of them said, ‘What will we do with this?’ And the corporal in charge the whole lot said, ‘Nothing we can do. It’ll just have to stay in the hangar.’ ‘But where am I going? I’m going overseas.’ ‘Sorry.’ So they just had to leave the cars.’ And of course, they weren't there three and a half years later, were they?’ Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the story Jack told me. Yeah.
CH: What do you know about Jack's time in the RAF war broke out?
JC: Not a lot. But you see it was all Yorkshire. He was on the bombers. The Halifax bomber. It’s the same as the bombers here. I was told the name Halifax. Lord Halifax was a Yorkshireman, and they had these big bombers and they said, ‘Right. What are we going to call this one is the Halifax.’ Because Lord Halifax had a lot of money and he backed them. That’s the story that your dad told me.
SK: But he went off to Italy. Or North Africa?
JC: Yes. Yeah. He went, because Monty was with the 8th Army. I think they were behind the 8th Army. I’m not sure. Or they perhaps they loaded the aeroplane up, dropped the bombs and then Monty would come up. He was with the 8th Army. He was attached to them. Yes. Definitely.
SK: And then he went to Italy.
JC: Yes. Yes.
SK: And which side were Italy on then? Our side? Was that when they, because dad liked the Italians, didn't he?
JC: Oh yes. He loved Italy, yes. He liked the Italians. They were very friendly. Very friendly.
SK: Were they on our side then?
JC: Oh definitely. Yes. But don’t forget Italy capitulated in the beginning. Oh yeah, they were very kind because when they were in the desert if they were near a farmhouse one of the lads would say, ‘Right. Geordie. Jack, I'm going to that farmhouse, see if we can get some eggs.’ So what the RAF lads used to do, they used to get these food bags from the UK and it was tea bags and of course these had all this tea, the lads in the hangar had the tea and then the dried tea bags they would take to the farmer and the farmer would give them six eggs for one tea bag and little did they know the tea had already been done. That was cheating, wasn’t it? Honestly. That’s what he told me [laughs] So, that was awful. You shouldn't do that. He said, ‘No. When you're young and in the middle of the desert waiting for Monty to do something.’ Yeah.
CH: I’m just looking at Jack’s notes that he made.
JC: Yes.
CH: It says that in 1939, when war with Germany was declared he was transferred back to RAF Halton to finalise the shortened apprentice training.
JC: Yeah.
CH: And he passed out as an Aircraftsman First Class.
JC: Yes.
CH: And he was not classified as still under eighteen years of age and not eligible for [man’s] service.
JC: That's right. Yeah. He was still a boy entrant.
CH: And then in 1940 he was posted to Number 4 Group Headquarters at Heslington Hall in York.
JC: Yeah.
CH: And it says after a cup of tea he was sent to Number 4 Group, Bomber Command Communication Flight, Rawcliffe Lane, Clifton, York.
JC: Rawcliffe, yeah.
CH: And it says here, “Apprentice J Culkin became a popular airman to take around on site visits to look after aircraft and to do starting drills. Eventually most staff officers took an interest in showing the apprentice how to fly and allowing him to take the controls of most of the flights. He became a very good flyer.”
JC: Yes.
CH: And on the 2nd of July he was re-classified Aircraftsman First Class and now classified to carry out the duties of Fitter 2 on engines on all —
JC: Yeah.
CH: RAF aircraft.
JC: Yeah.
CH: He worked on flight aircraft including the Westland Lysander, a Hawker Hurricane, Supermarine Spitfire, Albatross, the Bristol Blenheim, the Bristol Botha, Handley Page.
JC: Yes.
CH: And then on the 3rd of December he was posted to 35 Squadron RAF Leeming in Yorkshire which was the first squadron equipped with the Handley Page Halifax bomber.
JC: Yeah.
CH: Did he ever talk much about flying the Halifax?
JC: No. I think he enjoyed it. I think he enjoyed it. Yes. Because he knew that the lads that he worked with were good engineers. He knew that aeroplane would fly. Definitely. Yeah. He was good to the lads.
CH: Do you know what was actually his role?
JC: What? As an aircraft fitter? Teaching. Teaching them to use the tools properly. You know. Because we were stationed in Germany weren't we? What was the first when you went to boarding school.
CH: Hildesheim.
JC: Hildesheim. It was RAF Hildesheim, wasn’t it? And that was the Army Air Corps and we were the only RAF people, all the others were Army and Jack had to train some of the Army boys how to service the helicopter. And they used to come to work in hobnail boots and he’d say, ‘There’s no way you're getting on that aeroplane with those boots. Go back. Get your plimsolls on.’ Yeah. Hildesheim RAF Hildesheim] yeah. We were the only RAF people there. What was dad? Sergeant. Flight Sergeant then.
SK: Flight sergeant.
JC: Flight sergeant I think he was. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, Major Begby, in charge of the whole lot we were coming back to the UK and he said, ‘Look Jack. Why don't you come with us?’ ‘What?’ ‘Join the Army. You’re a sergeant now. If you join the Army now in six months you’d be a staff sergeant. Then you’d get warrant.’ I think Warrant Number 2 and then you’d go Warrant Number 1 he said. He came home. He said, ‘What do you think, Jean. What about the Army?’ I said, ‘The Army? No. I want to stay with the RAF. I like the RAF.’ And with the Army you move in a battalion. With the RAF, you’re single, you know. You know, you’re posted. A sergeant posted here. Corporal posted there. But you’re not in a group so you’re with the same people all the time. I said, ‘No. I like the RAF.’ So that was it. We stayed with the RAF.
CH: I’m just going back to Jack’s notes. It says in 1941 he sat and passed the Trade Test Examination and was re-classed leading aircraftsman and is now heading a modification team working on such projects such as fitting all squadron aircraft with propeller de-icing systems.
JC: Yes.
CH: Modifying air intake and modifying engine controls and the station was bombed on several occasions with the station commander being killed.
JC: That would be in Yorkshire. RAF. Dishforth? No. [pause] It doesn't say does it? No.
CH: It says he flew, so he was posted to 76 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George.
JC: Yes.
CH: County Durham.
JC: Yes. Yes.
CH: And he flew with the squadron to Tain in Scotland with a full bomb load aboard.
JC: Yes.
CH: Waited several days for the weather to clear and for the squadron to bomb the German pockets battleship. The Tirpitz.
JC: Yes.
CH: It was hard work and long hours.
JC: Yeah.
CH: And he was now in charge of a maintenance crew responsible for one Halifax bomber.
JC: That’s right.
CH: And then in 1942 he mentions a court martial. Would you like to tell me something about that?
JC: All I know about this he was one minute late. It was his turn to do guard duty and he was one minute late and the corporal in charge said, ‘Right. I’m going to charge you, Culkin. You are one minute late.’ ‘But corp, I was working on an aeroplane.’ Anyhow, the Group Captain found out about this as it goes in orders and he had the two of them in front of him and he said, ‘Do you know what corporal? The thing is this young boy is working on an aeroplane. Perhaps he's got one screw to fit in. One minute late. Admonished. No. You go back to work, Culkin.’ That was it. He could have been court martialled for one minute late. But they had to be like that, you know.
SK: [unclear]
JC: As your dad, I mean, you know you’ve got two stripes on your arm. Wow.
CH: It actually says this happened on his nineteenth birthday.
JC: Yeah. His nineteenth birthday. Yes. Just before he went overseas.
CH: That was in May and then on the 10th of July all the squadron aircraft and selected crews and personnel took off in the early hours for a mission in the Middle East and he was one of them. They planned to fly and land at Mersa in North Africa.
JC: Yeah.
CH: Via Gibraltar. It took a few days to service the aircraft and load the bombs, fly back to base by flying over southern Italy and bomb the Italian fleet at Taranto. Over the Alps and back to base. A total tour of sixteen days. Did he ever talk about that much?
JC: No.
CH: No.
JC: Not things like that. No.
CH: If we go forward a little bit to when you got married which year, what year was that in?
JC: 1946. Yeah.
CH: So, the war had finished.
JC: Yes. Yes.
CH: Would you like to carry on about your life together then?
JC: It was, it was wonderful. Not a lot of money around. I mean the pay wasn't very good. He was stationed at RAF locking and we had to live in rooms. I’d never been away from home any length of time. He eventually got us the first set of rooms. There was a bedrooms and the use of the kitchen. That was on the main road in Weston Super Mare. We were there for about two weeks. Jack used to go on his cycle, go to work and I used to just potter around in the bedroom and then think, oh, I'll go for a little walk. We were there for two weeks and then the landlady decided, ‘I'm sorry but you're going to have to go. I've got summer visitors coming.’ ‘Pardon? We've only been here two weeks.’ ‘Well, I’m sorry. You've paid the rent so you know, you can go.’ And we had to go and find accommodation. Little did we know that this was a council house on the main road and you're not supposed to sublet. So someone had obviously said mmm mmm because seeing Jack in uniform. Yeah. So somebody said. So, then we had, he had to go back to the mess and find out the roster where rooms, you know were. We did eventually get a couple of rooms but oh living with someone. Having your bedroom which you had to keep tidy which was fair enough. Use of the kitchen. Oh. Which the landlady put some money in the gas and I'd come in, ‘Oh, you can’t use that. That’s mine. You can come in half an hour and use your area.’ Oh, it was awful but you're young you know. Twenty two nearly. That was it. So we had three lots of rooms while we were, no married quarters in those days. Then eventually I found out I was pregnant. I thought oh great. Jack said, ‘Do you want to stay at Weston?’ I said, ‘No. No. I want to go home to my mum.’ So we came back. Yes. Oh, and then he had to go to RAF Locking and continue. I think he was teaching there. I’m not sure. So I stayed at home and went to see the doctor and whatnot and Dr Goodman says, ‘Get on there. Let me have a look.’ And my mum was standing by me. He felt my tummy. He said, ‘Yeah. When was your last period?’ January the what? 5th. Just a minute. October the 12th your baby is due.’ So, I said, ‘Ooh hospital.’ He said, ‘Oh no. Well, you're late. When you get pregnant you’ve got to come and see me ASAP. You can’t leave it two times, three times. You can’t. We’re all full up. I’m sorry. You’re having the baby at home.’ I said, ‘Oh, ok then.’ So, mum was with me and she said, ‘That’s alright.’ So Dr Goodman said, ‘There’s a midwife lives in your area. I’ll send her. Her name is Mrs Bowmaker so she’ll come and see you. Probably tomorrow.’ And that was it. So she was born at home. It was lovely because Mrs Bowmaker just lived around the corner. She was our local nurse. Yeah. Remember names. It's amazing. She was lovely. She really was.
SK: When did you join dad again then?
JC: After you were born. I think it was the end of January. You are born October. It must have been January, February because where was he posted then?
SK: Debden.
JC: Yes. RAF Debden. That’s right. And we got a married quarter. Yeah. Our first married quarter.
SK: But I can remember before, where was it we had to queue outside in the cold for food? That horrible place.
JC: RAF [pause] RAF Croft which is just on the outskirts because your dad was posted to Padgate. RAF Padgate, and just on the outskirts, RAF Croft waiting for the married quarters to be built in, it was Canberra Square. That was the married quarter we got. We had to live at RAF Croft. Oh, John was in his pram wasn’t he?
SK: You were like Nissen huts, weren’t they?
JC: That’s right. Yeah. They were Nissen huts.
SK: Awful. And we used to have to queue outside.
JC: We had to. Yes. Breakfast we had to eat with the airmen. All the people, RAF people coming back from overseas. Wives you know and sisters and brothers and all coming back to RAF Croft. Nissen huts they were literally. And we were given two rooms in a Nissen hut because we had two children. Group captain’s inspection every Thursday morning and I think did you go to like a Kindergarten?
SK: I just remember queuing for food, mum.
JC: Yes.
SK: With the [twins]
JC: We had to go to the main mess hall, didn’t we? Because John was in the pram wasn’t he?
SK: I can remember mounds of coke and coal.
JC: That’s right. Yes, that’s right.
SK: You had to queue and go nearer and nearer the [unclear]
JC: Yeah. I know.
CH: So this Nissen hut. This was for you?
JC: Yeah.
CH: Or families.
JC: Families coming back from Egypt and you name it. Coming back from overseas. Aden.
CH: Do you remember which year this was?
JC: Our John. What year was —
SK: I can remember queuing [unclear]
JC: John was, you must have been four five. Five. He was five. What year was that?
SK: In fact, you said that a lot of the women whose husbands weren’t there were doing things they shouldn’t be.
JC: That's right because they were dumped there. The wives and kids were dumped there you see
SK: And dad was court martialled nearly there wasn’t he?
JC: Yeah, because he ah that was because we had a smelly drain. We had two rooms, didn’t we? We had a drain outside and he said, ‘This is disgusting. This really is.’ So he went to his superior and he said, ‘Right, we’ll see what we can do for you sergeant.’ They didn’t do anything about it.
SK: The families officer came around didn’t she?
JC: Yes. Yeah. Wondering what we were complaining about and the smell was awful because it was all the nasty stuff you know.
CH: What facilities did you have in the Nissen hut?
JC: We had a table and four chairs. A dining table in one room. And in the other room was, Sue was in a bedroom. Was John in the same bedroom because he was a baby then. I can’t remember.
SK: I can’t remember. All I can remember is queuing for food.
JC: Food. Yes. Because we had to go to the mess hall for food. There was no cooking facilities in the Nissen huts. None at all. So we had to be up and be at the mess hall for seven, 7.30 when the corporal behind, you know, the cooks used to say, ‘Right. What do you want?’ Bacon, egg blah blah blah. ‘Oh, and you’ve got a baby. I can give you an extra pint of milk,’ because John was a baby. Yeah. And it was awful wasn’t it really. Did you, you didn’t —
CH: Did you have shared toilets?
JC: Well, the toilet was right at the end of the Nissen hut. Yes. We shared a toilet. All these people coming from the Middle East and whatnot you know.
CH: And how long did you live in that for?
JC: Well, we were waiting for a married quarter at Padgate. I think we were there about five months. Four months. Five months.
SK: I can remember moving in to Padgate.
JC: Yes. Padgate. Brand new quarters. Canberra Square. Lovely because Sue was about six.
SK: No, not that old. I’ve got a picture on my [Gresham] Flyer haven’t I?
JC: Oh yes. Yes.
SK: With John on the back. John would then be about two I suppose.
JC: Two. Yes.
SK: I’d be about five.
JC: Well, there was three and a half years difference roughly but yes. Eventually got a married quarter. It was lovely.
CH: What year was this then that you moved to Padgate?
SK: I’d be [ ]
JC: You were about —
SK: ’53.
JC: Yeah. You were.
SK: Fifty —
JC: Were you eight or seven?
SK: No. Not that old.
JC: Eh? Were you older?
SK: It was when dad went to Aden.
JC: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CH: Ok. So you were at, moved into married quarters at RAF Padgate.
JC: Padgate. Yes. Yeah. Brand new married quarters. Beautiful. I think we were there for about eighteen months weren’t we? And then your dad was PWR. Right. Preliminary Warning Roster. So he was put, he had to go and get his jabs and whatnot and he was going to go to Aden. Khormaksar. It was either Steamer Point or Khormaksar and he was going to Khormaksar. I’m not sure whether they had a helicopter there or [pause] I don’t know what the aeroplanes were really. He was there what —
SK: We were supposed to join him weren’t we?
JC: Yes. We were joining. We were supposed to be. It was a two year tour. You had to wait one year for a married quarter so if the wives and families went out it would be twelve months. Jack was there for about six months but before he went away he said, ‘Right You have your inoculations. Leave the children because [TBT] was a nasty one. It makes you feel ill. So I thought, ‘Right.’ I’ll go up to the Medical Centre and have my inoculations. What not. The children could have theirs later. He’d been out there I think six months if that. Sue’s birthday was coming up October so mam came down. Auntie Mary with Steve and Alan. Nana Culkin came. October the 12th. Your birthday. Great. So we’d all been in to town. We did some shopping. Cakes and blah blah. Came back and there was a notice on the letterbox.” Urgent.” I though oh good. We’ve got a married quarter. Went in. Emptied the shopping. I thought, oh I’ll open this. “Dear Mrs Culkin, sorry to inform you —” I thought, what? “Your husband is seriously ill in hospital. The CO will get in touch with you.” I thought, oh my God. So mum, Jack’s mum said, ‘It’s alright. Auntie Mary and I will look after the kids. You go and see someone.’ So it was only about a ten minute walk to the actual entrance to the offices and whatnot. The headquarters. So I went around there, saw the corporal. He said, ‘Oh, I’ll see if the groupie is in and he will see you, Mrs Culkin.’ So I waited for about ten minutes. Then the group captain, ‘Would you come in please.’ So I went in, sat down and he said, ‘I had a signal from Khormaksar this morning. I’m sorry to tell you that your husband is seriously ill.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘He’s had a stomach ulcer that burst.’ He said, ‘I’m getting more information. You got the telegram?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well, I’m on the wire all the time. I get it before you.’ So I said, ‘Yeah. What happens now?’ He said, ‘Well, have you had your innoculations?’ I said, ‘Yes. I’m up to date. I had them before my husband left.’ He said, ‘Because maybe this week I could fly you out. It depends. Who could look after the children?’’ That’s ok. Somebody would.’ So he said, ‘Could you come and see me tomorrow at 9 o’clock? I’ll have another signal by then.’ I said, ‘Yes. Certainly.’ So I came home. That was Sue’s party. So I went around the next morning. He saw me straight away. He said, ‘Right. Sit down.’ I thought, oh this is terrible. He said, ‘No. There’s been a slight improvement. He’s taking tablespoons of goat’s milk.’ No cows over there. It’s goat’s milk. ‘He can’t eat anything but he’s having these tablespoons of goats milk. He’s been unconscious for over twenty four hours but now he’s coming around,’ from whatever, you know. The MOs quite worried about him but we’ll keep you in touch.’ So the group captain said, ‘I’m not flying you out. I don’t want to do that now. Come and see me tomorrow at 9 o’clock if you will.’ I said, ‘Yes, certainly.’ I went around and he said, ‘Good news Mrs Culkin. He’s much better. He’s not taking food but he’s drinking milk. It’s goat’s milk. No cows in Aden.’ So, he said, ‘I’ll be on to them again sometime tomorrow. But you can come and see me tomorrow any time. Whatever time you wish. I’ll have time for you.’ And so I had to come back and tell the family blah blah blah. Mary had to get home because the boys had to do schooling and what not. I think Nanna Culkin had to go home. So there was just Jean and Sue and John. I went and saw him the next day, the groupie and he said, ‘Good news. I'm not flying you. Your husband has gained consciousness and we don't know whether he is going to finish tour out there. I said, ‘Oh, we’re probably near the top of the housing list.’ He said, ‘Oh that’s the by and by. No.’ And sure enough the next day the corporal came around the next day. ‘Sorry, Mrs Culkin, ‘I don't think you're going to Aden.’ ‘I’m not going. Oh, that’s sad.’ He said, ‘Don’t be sad. It’s an awful place. If you see the group captain on Friday he’ll fill you in.’ So I had to go and see him again on Friday. He said, ‘You're not going out. We’re going to get your husband back.’ I said, ‘Back. I thought I’d enjoy it out there.’ ‘No. No. No. No. So, you'll just have to stay in your married quarter and we’ll let you know when your husband’s home.’ He’d probably come home by I don’t think aeroplane because in those days aeroplanes didn’t fly as much for families. I think he was coming home on the Empire Windrush. He came, that's right. Oh you were at sea for —
SK: Was that the one the one they used for the West Indians?
JC: No. It blew up eventually. The Empire Windrush. Yeah. The next. Your dad got home from the Empire Windrush. Right. And he had a months leave. He had to go and see the doctor. The MO. Sick quarters every other day because of his tummy and what not. But the next time the Windrush came it blew up. So he missed it. Yeah. Yeah, he missed it.
SK: That was good luck there then.
JC: I know. I know. Then he was put on lighter duties. I think its A4G4 something it’s called. When you’re not A1 you’re A4G4. So he was on the bottom because of his tummy ulcer and he thought My God. Now, I’ve got to get myself fit to be A1, which he did. Then that was it about Padgate I think.
CH: What job was Jack doing then?
JC: Sorry?
CH: When he came back from Aden what, what job was he doing?
JC: He was, at Padgate he was teaching the old apprentices. Aircraft apprentices. One level to another doing modules. Is that what they’re called? Yes. He was teaching. Yeah. That was a good job because he was eight until five. 8 o’clock until five. Another job it would be God knows when he’d get in. but it was a school for the young apprentices. Yeah.
CH: So, he came back from Aden —
JC: Yes.
CH: Where did he go to after that? Did you stay at Padgate?
JC: No, because we got another posting after that didn’t we?
SK: It must have been, was it Odiham?
JC: It could have been RAF Odiham. That’s where the choppers were.
SK: Odiham.
JC: RAF Odiham. Hampshire.
SK: 11 [unclear] Road.
JC: Eh?
SK: 11 [Unclear] Road.
Was it 11 [unclear] Road. Yes. Yeah. Nice married quarter. Yeah. Very nice. We had a married quarter. Very nice because she went to school there and John started school there didn’t he? Yeah. And we hadn’t bought, we hadn’t had a car then. Didn’t have enough money so I said to your dad, ‘How about me going to work? John is now seven. At school.’ So he said, ‘Alright. I’ll go in to HSQ this afternoon and see if there’s anything going.’ He came back that night and he said, ‘Would you like to work in HSQ?’ I said, ‘Yeah. What?’ He said, ‘You've got to see the Warrant Officer on Monday morning.’ ‘Oh okay.’ I went and saw the Warrant Officer and he said, ‘Have you worked in an office before?’ I said, ‘Oh yes. I've always worked in an office.’ He said, ‘Well, what we’re looking for is a movements clerk.’ I said, ‘Yeah. Ok.’ So he said, ‘Can we see you 8 o'clock Monday?’ ‘Yes.’ So I went and saw him and he said, ‘Right, Mrs Culkin you are working in this room. The orderly room. You are our movements clerk.’ No WAAFs in those days. Not in all the camps. No. No. All airmen. So I was in this room. There's my counter. There's my desk and I've got all these four airmen behind me and the flight Sergeant, my boss was up there. I went and I thought oh my God. ‘Right. Come in Mrs Culkin. Now, have you used a Bradshaw’s?’ I said, ‘What’s a Bradshaw’s?’ ‘Its a timetable for trains.’ You know. ‘And then you’ve got timetables for buses. You’re a movements clerk.’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘What will happen, we get a note from HSQ for boys who are being posted. First of all they’ll come to see you. You are movements clerk. You will already have a letter for me, your flight sergeant to say where these men are going and you’ve got to write out a warrant for which train. You look up the train times, what time they get there, if they change and you will give them a bus warrant. They might need a bus to get to the railway station.’ ‘Yes. Alright.’ God, this was my first day. I’ll die. I can’t do it. I said this to the AC1 behind. ‘I can’t.’ He said, ‘Can I call you Jean?’ I said, ‘Yes, of course you can.’ He said, ‘That’s it. You’re now a movements clerk. Yeah. Ok. So —
CH: That was a lot of responsibility.
JC: It was, yeah.
CH: To make sure they were on the right train and in the right place.
JC: Yeah. The mail used to be brought in to the next office and it was all sorted. And then Movements. I’d get my pile here and think oh yeah. Oh my God. And then you’d got to go to the Cardex and find the airman, get his card out, put it down here, get your pad. Where does he work? Oh yeah, he’s in hangar number five. Corporal so and so. Account number 5. “Come to see movements clerk ASAP.” Put that in the mailbox and the maily, the corporal would go around and then you’d see these guys. ‘Where am I going, Jean?’ ‘I’m sorry. I’m sorry.’ Where am I going?’ ‘Oh, yeah. Oh you’re going there. Oh. Oh not overseas. No. Not yet. No. You’re not PWR.’ Preliminary Warning Roster. ‘No. You’re not. No. You’re going the other end of the country.’
SK: Could you arrange for them to have better postings then?
JC: Oh no. Oh no. That came from HSQ. No. That was nothing to do with me because some of the maybe a corporal airman, ‘I don’t want to go there, Mrs Culkin.’ ‘I’m sorry.’ You know. And then don’t forget I had the Cardex. So whenever they moved I had to move from one hangar to another and then when eventually, when they eventually left the station that was blocked there. You put their card in there so they’d gone gone gone. They’d probably gone somewhere else you see.
CH: Gosh.
JC: It was very good. It was 8 o’clock until five I think. An hour for lunch.
SK: That’s probably why your memory’s so good now.
JC: Do you reckon?
SK: Yeah.
JC: Oh, it was fun. I mean movements. I’ve got photographs. I was showing you last week. There’s me in the front and the lads behind me.
CH: This was at RAF Odiham.
JC: This was RAF Odiham.
SK: Odiham.
JC: Yes. Yeah. That was a new quarter wasn’t it. Hampshire. Yes.
CH: Gosh. Do you remember how long you stayed at that station for?
JC: Was it three and a half, four years?
SK: No. Not that long because I had to go to boarding school because you went to Germany.
JC: Oh yeah. We were Preliminary Warning Roster. We got our posting to Germany, didn’t we? RAF.
SK: Was that ’58 ’59?
JC: Yes. About ’58. Yes.
SK: Does that tie in?
JC: Yeah, because she was eleven.
SK: If you were eleven and you were in the RAF and you were posted to Germany.
JC: Yes.
SK: You had three big boarding schools.
JC: Yes.
SK: You couldn't go to day school.
JC: No.
SK: You had to go to boarding school because John Hamley went as well didn’t he?
JC: That’s right.
SK: I went to Prince Rupert School in Wilhelmshaven.
JC: Yeah. Because the school only taught to the age of eleven so Sue had to —
CH: So you went to Germany with your parents.
JC: Oh yes.
CH: And you were in boarding school in Germany.
JC: She could have either gone —
SK: Because John was younger.
JC: Yeah.
SK: He went just to the day school didn’t he?
JC: If Sue had wished they said you could either go back to the UK, stay with grandparents in Sunderland or grandparents in Newcastle. But, ‘No. I don't want to do that. So she went to Wilhelmshaven. Boarding school. Yeah.
SK: Which some years earlier had been a big SS base.
JC: Yeah. It was.
SK: On the south coast [unclear]
JC: Was it the Navy? Was it the —
SK: Yes. It was the deepest what do you call it? Harbour.
JC: Harbour. Yes. Wilhelmshaven.
SK: Where all the warships used to come in.
JC: That’s right.
SK: It’s great in the summer but very cold in the winter.
JC: In the winter. But board.
SK: I slept in the old billets I suppose.
JC: Yes.
SK: For the German Navy.
JC: Oh God. Broke our hearts. Never been away from home before and you were, how far were you? Two hundred miles was it?
SK: Two, two fifty something like that.
JC: We couldn’t see you for six weeks because the head said, ‘No. If you come and see the children you’ll upset them. So can you leave it for six weeks?’ So we went up after six weeks but she was fine. We thought oh God. Oh, John thought it was great.
SK: He was at home.
JC: I’ve got my mum and dad all to myself. My sister’s gone away weee [laughs] yeah.
CH: And how long were you in Germany?
JC: Two and a half years. This was when Major Begby who was in charge. Army Air Corps, it was. That’s when he said to Jack, ‘Look, your promotion. What are you? Sergeant? Flight sergeant? If you come to us Jack you’d be a warrant officer two, warrant officer one. Then you’d go for your commission in about five, six years.’ So, ‘I’ll have to go home and ask Jean. See what she thinks.’ He came home and he said, ‘Hey, hows about joining the Army?’ I said, ‘Padron?’ ‘Yeah. Look, we move in battalions. Not like we do. Singly.’ I said, ‘No.’ The Welsh Regiment was there then and the girls, everybody knew each other all the time but you used to know oh yeah. Oh yeah. ‘We’re all going there. Great.’ Mates forever. In the RAF you don’t do that. You make new friends. I said, ‘No, Jack. Do you want to go in the Army?’ He said, ‘Not really. I’ll tell Major Begby tomorrow.’ Yeah. Ok then. So we didn’t go in the Army. Anyhow, the Army go on schemes and the guys are away for about three or four months at a time because the girls, we all lived in, it was a block of flats then, wasn’t it? And the girls they were lovely. Welsh Regiment weren’t they? They could all sprechen sie Deutsch and the girl next door said, ‘Have you been to Germany before Jean?’ I said, ‘No.’ ‘So you can’t sprechen sie Deutsch.’ I said, ‘No.’ She said, ‘I’ll tell you what when they kids have gone to school I’ll take you shopping.’ ‘Yeah. Ok.’ The first thing I learned was kleines weiβes brot bitte. A small white loaf please.
SK: [unclear]
JC: I know. And then she said, ‘Right. We’ll take you to the butcher’s shop. But you get by and it was two and a half years, wasn’t it? And it was wonderful. Yeah. It was absolutely wonderful because the Army Air Corps were good. And I think there was one Royal Navy petty officer. It was funny that. The Army, Navy and Air Force all at, what was the Navy doing with the RAF and the Army? Never knew. But he was a petty officer so he must have been good.
SK: May have got the wrong movements clerk.
JC: I hope not. Not guilty my lord. But Hildesheim was nice. Yeah.
CH: Then it was RAF Leconfield.
JC: Yes. After that posted to RAF Leconfield.
CH: 1961.
JC: Yes. Yes. Sue went to [pause] What happened there? Had you finished?
SK: Longcroft School.
JC: You went to Longcroft. Did John? John was still at school wasn’t he?
SK: I don’t know where. He’d be on camp I think.
JC: Yes. Yeah. Could have been. Yeah. So, Leconfield.
SK: And then on to —
JC: That was Yorkshire. Leconfield wasn’t it?
SK: Then where? Then to here.
JC: What?
SK: Was it Scampton or –
JC: Scampton. Waddington. We went to both didn’t we?
SK: Then to Germany. You went to Germany.
JC: Oh yeah, we went to —
SK: Oh, did you go to Hong Kong? No. You went to Hong Kong.
JC: Hong Kong for a tour. Yes. That’s how, of course we went to Hong Kong. That was lovely. We had a choice. Jack, I think your dad was at Scampton. Waddington. I’m not sure. He saw the movements clerk and he said, ‘The thing is Jack you’ve got a choice. You’ve got Singapore. Hong Kong.’ ‘What do we do?’ So he said, ‘Tell you what. Go home. Discuss it with the family. Let us, let us know tomorrow.’ So he came home that night and talked about it and I didn’t mind either. I don’t know whether it was you said Hong Kong or John. I don’t know. Anyhow, posted to Hong Kong two and a half years. And Sue said, ‘Ok. I’ll come with you but I’m not sure whether I’ll like it.’ And we said, ‘It’’ll be alright, Sue,’ you know. ‘Meet new people.’ Because you were twenty then weren’t you? Twenty. Yes.
SK: Twenty one.
JC: Twenty one. She had her twenty first in Hong Kong, but John, ‘Oh yeah. I’m all for it.’ That was it. So, two and a half years. But after six months.
SK: Yeah. I came back.
JC: Sue couldn’t stand the heat and the crowds and, ‘Dad, I want to go home. I’ve had enough. Can I go back to Lincoln?’ Went to stay with two friends didn’t you. ‘Oh, you can’t go on your own, Sue. You’re only twenty one. Please stay.’ ‘No. No. I’ll buy a wig mam before I go.’ Do you remember you bought a wig?
SK: I did.
JC: You did. Why? I don’t know. You had beautiful hair. Anyhow —
SK: The humidity.
JC: That’s it and the crowds of people. You couldn’t, not used to it.
SK: It was the humidity I think.
JC: But there again you had a job there didn’t you?
SK: A good job.
JC: She had a good, the Hong Kong Electric Light Company. Typist.
SK: I was PA to the boss.
JC: Yeah. She had, do you know what. She was earning more than her father who was a warrant. She was.
SK: [unclear] what I was earning here. I had a super job. I don’t know [unclear] but I did.
JC: ’No. I can’t stay dad. Really. I don’t like it. It’s too, I can’t stand the heat.’
SK: Yes.
JC: That was the spring.
SK: And that’s then end of the story. We ended up here.
JC: Yes. Yeah. She came back and that was it. Met Jim. Jack was due to come out of the RAF.
CH: Ok. Right. So the final base was Waddington.
JC: RAF Waddington. Yes. That was a nice posting. Of course, the children had grown up. I was more or less just doing housework, you now. I’d more or less finished work on camps. On any camp. I thought oh my God. And then we had to think about coming out of the RAF. We knew that these bungalows were being built so we came down. Saw the boss man, put down a deposit and then we got this bungalow. No. That's about it, I think.
CH: That was in the 1980s.
JC: 1980s. Yeah. 1980s. Yeah. I think that’s about it because I think Sue had by then met Jim.
[background voice]
CH: Interview paused for a moment.
[recording paused]
CH: Ok. So, interview restarted. You were just going to put the deposit down on this bungalow.
JC: Yes. Jack was due to come out of the RAF at fifty five. And that was about it, you know. He said, ‘Right. I’ve got to come out some time.’ Because he loved, he loved his job. He loved looking after the lads. The airmen thought the world of him. When we were at RAF Gutersloh the group captain said, ‘Right Jack, when you get back to the UK that will be your last tour so we want to do something special here.’ He said, ‘Oh, please no.’ He said, ‘It’s just a little party.’ Because he got on with all the lads whatever rank, you know. Anyhow, I was working at RAF Gutersloh as well. They wanted someone in the, I don’t know, we did ordering. My friend Carol and I did ordering. Airmen used to come in, Air Publications, ‘Right. Jean, I want this. Can you get me this booklet?’ Every Monday morning a pilot would come in, ‘Can you get me this booklet? This booklet.’ Because all the orders used to go to RAF Bruggen. They arrived there at the weekend and on the following morning they’d be back. They’d be flown back to Gutersloh so all the officers and airmen could come in and get their books and whatnot. I did that for about two years and I loved every minute of it, you know. It was absolutely wonderful. And there was, I must tell you this, Carol, my friend her husband was a corporal. We used to take sandwiches to work and she said, ‘Jean, I'll take you to the Corporals Club.’ I said, ‘I can't. Jack’s a warrant.’ She said, ‘No. We can have a cup of tea. Bring your sarnies and we’ll sit and have a natter and I can say hello to my husband. He’s over there. He's a corporal.’ ‘Yeah, ok.’ So we were having our sandwiches and I’m sitting back listening to all this going on. A lot of lads, you know having sandwiches and natter natter and who walks in the door but Jack in uniform. If he had his hat on like that I knew there was trouble. So he goes straight, he could see me. He couldn’t miss me and I thought oh my God. I thought he’d come for me. No. He’d come to two lads a the counter and he said, ‘What do you think you’re doing?’ You know you're working on blooming helicopters, aeroplanes and you're drinking beer. My office. 2 o'clock.’ I thought oh God. I didn't dare look at Jack. He was so stern. Anyhow, I got back to work and that night he picked me up at five, I finished at five and I said, ‘What was that?’ He said, ‘I couldn't look at you love because I would have laughed but when I put my hat on straight like that they know they're in trouble.’ I thought, ‘What happened?’ He said, ‘I got back to the office, got back to my desk, took my hat off and put it on the side and I said, ‘Right. You two stand there you stupid nincompoops.’ So I put my hat on like that, I said, ‘What the hell do you think you're doing? You're working on choppers. Drinking beer. 12 o'clock. You’re working on engines for Christ’s sake.’ Yeah. And he really really told them off. ‘Sorry sir. We shan’t do it again.’ He said, ‘You do that again I’m going to really report you to the CO. The CO knows nothing about this but he will do.’ And he frightened the living daylights out of them. That told them. He said, ‘But you’ve got to teach them. You can't drink beer when you're working on aeroplanes.’ You know. And that was it. Yeah. I said to Carol, ‘I’m never coming to your club again.’ [laughs] But I'm still in touch with Carol. Yeah. Her husband, when they got back to, they came back to England the year before us. Oh, she was lovely. She comes from Liverpool. And she'd been back a year and then she found out she was pregnant. She had twin girls. And the twin girls I think were two year old and he met somebody else. He, he was an electrician. He came out the RAF, got this job in this factory and the boss of the factory was Swiss, a Swiss lady and it was love at first sight so got a divorce from Carol. So I still write and she says, ‘Jean, never mention his name to me again.’ Because the girl twin girls are now twenty, twenty five years old and got children of their own. We write every month I suppose and she says, she often says in her letter, “You know, my dear friend I can't believe we've been writing from 1970 when we got back to the UK. It’s wonderful.” You know. Yeah. Once a month we write. I haven't seen her. Our Sue says, ‘Why don’t you get a telephone number?’ I say, ‘Sue, if I start talking to Carol I’ll never, I’ll never get off. I mean we write pages and pages Can you imagine the telephone bill?’ No. We keep it as it is. Yeah. Carol, bless her. Carol.
CH: You mentioned Jack —
JC: Yes.
CH: On his final posting they were going to do a little do for him.
JC: Yes. Yeah. Oh, at RAF Gutersloh. Yes. Yeah. I’ve got pictures of that as well. I think they’re in there. I’m not sure. And they said he said we came home on the Thursday night. He was leaving them on the Friday because we had to get back to get back to the UK. He said, ‘There’s something happening at work.’ I said, ‘There’s bound to be.’ He said, ‘Have you heard anything in Air Publications?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well, some of the officers come in? Haven’t they mentioned?’ I said, ‘No. Nobody has said anything. Why would they tell me?’ He said, ‘I’ve got a funny feeling.’ I said, ‘Yes. Ok. God, stop worrying about it. We’ve got packing to do when we get back home and get the boxes ready for going back to the UK.’ Right. So, he said, ‘Ok.’ Came back and that was the Thursday and on Friday he dropped me off at my office, Air Publications and I knew there was something going on because I had, one of the officers had been in. He said, ‘Don’t you dare say anything.’ I said, ‘Promise. I won’t say a thing.’ And he, Jack knew there was something was going on months beforehand because the airmen were disappearing. They got through their work but he thought this is very odd. What the hell are they doing? But they kept up to date with their work, you know and eventually on the day of leaving, because he dropped me off at work at 8 o’clock that morning and I thought I wonder what’s going on. I know. I’m going to ask my flight sergeant if I can walk up to his hangar. And do you know what these lads had built? A wooden helicopter. There’s photographs in there and he’s standing on the steps with a group captain here drinking because the groupie said, ‘You know forty years is a long time, Jack. All the best and I hope you enjoy Civvy Street.’ Yeah. So they said, ‘Right chief. Get in.’ And they pulled him in this chopper right around the airfield. Stopped at every, everything. ‘Bye Jack. Hope you’ve enjoyed your forty years.’ Yeah. Yeah. And it was absolutely wonderful and when he picked me up that night it was lateish. It was half past five, 6 o’clock. He said, ‘Did you know anything about it?’ I said, ‘No. I knew nothing about it.’ I was sworn to secrecy. He said, ‘Did you know they were going to build that little chopper?’ I said, ‘No.’ All out of wood. You see one of the corporals would say, ‘Right. I’m going to disappear for a half an hour. You cover for me.’ And they’d go in to another part of the hangar. This, yeah. It had wood, it was all made of wood. The wings there, two wheels there and two wheels at the back and a little seat inside. And there’s a picture there of Jack on these steps and the groupie standing with a glass of champagne on him [unclear] Yeah, but forty years is a long time and he said, ‘Right. Where are you going Jack?’ And he said, ‘I think I’m in Lincoln somewhere. I don’t know. Waddington. Scampton. I think it might be Scampton.’ He said, ‘Well, good luck. All the best.’ Yeah. I think we went to Scampton first. Yes. Went to Scampton and then Waddo. Yeah. To finish off, you know. But it was good. Open Air Days over here when Jack was at Scampton or Waddo because if you were in uniform, you know Sue and Jim and the boys were only this and no entrance fees. ‘Right. Come on.’ You know. Well, now I think its about, is it about twenty, thirty pound to get in Open Day? It’s quite a lot. But it’s all for a good cause, you know. I mean, I watch it on telly. Absolutely wonderful. All these things that are going on. When Jack and I were in it there’s only a little few sort of little offices where they had cups of tea and sandwiches and biscuits but now it’s ginormous. Which is fantastic, you know. Yeah. So that was the end of that.
CH: Some wonderful happy memories.
JC: I know. Absolutely. And I’ve still got them.
CH: Yes.
JC: Which is good, you know. As I say to our Sue your body might give up but this is the most important part isn’t it, you know. I can say, ‘Help. My legs won’t move today, Sue.’ She’d say, ‘Yeah, alright mum.’ But you see when we left Hong Kong John was what? Seventeen. And our Sue, she was in England, couldn’t stand the heat. And of course, it came for us coming back and he’d finished schooling out there. He was just on seventeen and he said, ‘You know what, Dad, I don’t want to go back to the UK.’ ‘What? What are you going to do?’ He said, ‘I like Hong Kong. I like the life. I've got come nice school mates out here. We've all left school now, passed our exams and done this, that and the other. Do you think I could stay out for a couple of years?’ ‘Oh John. I don't like leaving you.’ He said, ‘I'll tell you what I'm going to look for a job. We have got a month before you get back so I’ll try and get this job. If I don’t get it I’ll come back to the UK with you.’ Damn me. He got this job at Rediffusion. Hong Kong Rediffusion. He came in for his lunch that day. It was only a half an hour. He could walk. ‘Mum and dad if — ’ we had a television about this big, in those days black and white, he said, ‘Watch that tonight. You might see something.’ I said, ‘The news? We know the news. Hong Kong news.’ He said, ‘No. Watch it.’ ‘Ok.’ So he said, ‘I’ll see you about 10 o'clock tonight.’ ‘OK.’ So, the 6 o’clock news came on and it was from RAF. What? ‘And we are now training some of our pilots —' What they do is take you out in an aeroplane, drop you in the water. You’ve got the thing, your life jacket on and whatnot and somebody comes and rescues you. And John says, ‘They’re trying me.’ They were trying him that day. ‘John, will you jump out?’ ‘Ok.’ Our John jumped out and that’s where he was on telly. Yeah. So he came up to the mic and he said, ‘That was the first jump I’ve ever done from RAF Kai Tak. Thank you.’ That was it. So came in that night. ‘I thought the likes of that by God it was scary but luckily I had the life jacket on and everything. Can I stay? Please? I finished my schooling. I think might have a job, you know.’ ‘Where?’ ‘RTHK.’ ‘What doing?’ ‘Television. Look we did all that today and I did most of the camera work.’ Oh God. And that was it. That was John in Hong Kong and that. He didn’t want to come back. Sue couldn’t get back quick enough. She couldn’t stand the heat. It was hot, you know if you’re not used to it. And he’d been out there about three or four years and he sent us tickets for a holiday. First class. BA. Yeah. It was a lovely. Lovely. But by then he’d met Flora and what not. He’d met her. She was in Miss Hong Kong blah blah blah and I think she came in second. And of course that’s Flora. That’s her birthday thing. And he met Flora because with RTHK they were taking photographs and whatnot and he asked her for a date and that was it. They've been married, she's fifty six this year so they've been married, they've had their Pearl wedding anniversary. Yeah. Because Justin is now, their elder son is twenty nine and Emma is eighteen. No. Sorry. She’s twenty one. Yes. And she’s just started university in Beijing where her brother is. Because Justin he got a job in Beijing. He’s marketing and he’s just had a good promotion. He’s just come back from Shanghai. Because now with those phones he can talk to his mum day or night can’t he? I haven’t got one of those phones. Because when she was here yesterday she said, ‘Oh, Justin wants to say hello.’ I said, ‘Oh, hi Just.’ He said, ‘Are you alright nanna? Your hair looks different nana.’ I said, ‘I know. It’s age, you know Justin [laughs] All the curls have gone.’ He said, ‘No. You look good. I’ll see you at Christmas.’ I said, ‘Are you?’ He said, ‘Yeah. We’re coming for Christmas.’ So he's coming and Emma’s coming because Emma’s just started Uni there learning Mandarin. No more Cantonese. It’s all Mandarin because the Chinese took over didn’t they? When we left how many years is that? Quite a few. So you’ve got to learn and our John’s been there all this time and he can not speak Cantonese or Mandarin. ‘I’m not learning that. If they can’t speak English they can’t speak English.’ But you know. So that’s about it.
CH: With Jack and his career in the RAF.
JC: Yes.
CH: You’ve travelled and stayed all around the world.
JC: I know. And I met people, wives who said, ‘Travelling? What? You're moving again?’ ‘Yeah. What about you?’ ‘No. I'm not moving my two boys.’ This was a corporal’s wife. ‘No. My boy’s education comes first. No. My husband can go anywhere he wants.’ And I used to say, ‘No way.’ Jack would say, ‘No way. I’m not putting you down. I want you with me. Why get married? What's the point? Why get married if you're going to leave your wife in a house because of education?’ I mean our Sue and John have done well in their education no matter where we've been they've gone to schools or colleges you know. It's been great for them. I mean we've got Flora now and two lovely grandchildren. Where is Emma? There's Emma. And there’s Justin.
CH: A wonderful family.
JC: I know. Just how old is Justin now? Gosh. Thirtysomething. Our Emma's twenty one. There’s nine years between them. They wanted, isn’t it amazing when you want children, you can't have them then all of a sudden, ‘I'm pregnant.’ Because there's nine years between them. No, but it's great. It’s lovely.
CH: So how long have you lived in this bungalow?
JC: 1974, I think. Jack was leaving the RAF so we had to have somewhere to live and start getting furniture, you know. This is not the same furniture we had when we moved in. Yes. Yeah. And we thought, ‘My God. The garden.’ There was a hell of a garden at the back and at the front. Jack and I used to do it and then of course I lost him. So, our Jim said, ‘Don’t worry mum.’ He loves gardening and he only lived at the top of the hill. Jim does all the gardening. Bless him.
CH: But when did Jack pass away?
JC: 1999.
CH: ’99.
JC: 1999. Yeah. He didn't see the New Year. You know. The centenary. No. We were at my sisters at Albrighton just on the outskirts Birmingham. She said, ‘Jack and Jean why don't you come up for four or five days?’ So Jim said, ‘It’s alright dad. You're not driving. I’ll take you.’ So we went for the weekend. That was Friday and Saturday. It was great. We went out with my sister and brother in law in the morning because Sue and Jim had come back here. And it was on the Sunday afternoon we'd been walking around, you know looking at various things in their village. Got back and Mary had done dinner for us. Spaghetti Bolognese. Really enjoyed it. It was great. I think it was about 10ish and Jack said, ‘Oh, do you mind if I go to bed? I feel ever so tired’ I said, ‘I shan’t be long.’ He said, ‘No. Don’t be long’ So right. So Mary and Bob went to bed and then I went to the bathroom, washed my hands and what not and he said, ‘Do you know I feel a bit odd.’ I said, ‘Do you? Are you too hot?’ he said, ‘No. Not really.’ So, I said, ‘Alright then. You go to that side of the bed and I’ll —’ It was a double bed. It was a six footer. And I think it was about 1 o'clock in the morning I heard him make this funny noise and I thought what the hell was that? I said, ‘Are you alright?’ And his head went like that. I thought oh my God. I got up and put the light on. Mary was in the downstairs bedroom with Bob and I shouted like hell. ‘What?’ I said, ‘Mary, can you dial 999?’ ‘Why?’ ‘Jack’s not very well. Please please hurry up. Hurry up’ So the ambulance, they couldn't find Albrighton. They couldn't find the village and I mean when we eventually got to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham they said you’ve got about four minutes, you know, when you have one of these attacks. It was a massive. He never had heart trouble in his life. Never.
CH: How old was he?
JC: How old was he when he died, bless him? Well, he was two years older than me so, I think he was seventy, seventy five. About seventy five. Yeah. I was about seventy three. Yeah. Seventy five. Just enjoying retirement, you know from the RAF and whatnot. But it was quick. By God it was quick. So we had to, eventually had to get in the ambulance. The ambulance chap was working on him but I thought ahum. There’s something wrong here. And the driver shouting to the back, ‘Can you hold tight please?’ So quick. I mean it was 2 o'clock in the morning. Luckily no traffic around. We got to the hospital and they worked on him but the doctor, lady doctor came in and said, ‘I’m sorry, Jean.’ I said, ‘Oh my.’ In shock. Then of course we had to get in touch with Sue and Jim at three or 4 o’clock in the morning. They got up, got dressed, came straight down you see. Luckily Jim being in the police force he said, ‘Now, what's going to happen mam because we're in a different county there’s going to be a young policeman,’ he said, ‘I've just spoken to him and he's going to take notes.’ He said, ‘He’s just going to ask you a few questions and just answer yes or no.’ Which I did. And then the doctor came in. A female doctor. She was lovely. She said, ‘You’re from Lincoln, aren't you?’ I said, ‘Yes. We live in Lincoln.’ She said, ‘I’ve just done four years in Lincoln Hospital.’ I said, ‘Oh that’s amazing.’ She said, ‘But I’m ever so sorry. There was just nothing we could do. It was a massive coronary.’ Whatever. And that was it. It was terrible coming back home. Jim driving and me in the back. Sue there. And oh God. Sue couldn’t get over it because dad’s favourite. But there you go. That’s life and I thought oh. And that was seventeen years ago almost. What do you do? You can't give in, can you?
CH: What a wonderful life you had.
JC: I know. Absolutely.
CH: Absolutely.
JC: Wonderful. I’d do it all again.
CH: And fantastic memories. I’d just like to, we’ll end it there.
JC: Yes.
CH: But thank you so much.
JC: Yes.
CH: So much for telling your story.
JC: No. You’re most welcome.
CH: It’s been wonderful.
JC: Thank you ever so much.
CH: Thank you very much Jean.
JC: Very kind of you. No. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jean Culkin
Creator
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Cathie Hewitt
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACulkinJ170913, PCulkinJ1702
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
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Jean Culkin grew up in Sunderland and worked as a tea girl and then a typist in a reserved occupation. She discusses her life and her wedding to her husband, John George Mackel Culkin. He was an apprentice at RAF Halton before becoming a fitter (engines). He served with 35 Squadron at RAF Leeming before being posted overseas to North Africa and Italy. After the war Jean accompanied her husband on postings to Germany and Hong Kong.
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eng
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Civilian
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China
Germany
Great Britain
China--Hong Kong
England--Somerset
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
England--Yorkshire
England--Newcastle upon Tyne
England--Weston-super-Mare
Germany--Gütersloh
England--Durham (County)
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01:40:34 audio recording
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Julie Williams
35 Squadron
4 Group
76 Squadron
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
home front
love and romance
military discipline
RAF Halton
RAF Leeming
RAF Locking
RAF Middleton St George
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/627/8897/APettyD160831.1.mp3
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Petty, Doug
Douglas Petty
D Petty
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Petty, D
Description
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11 items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Douglas Petty ( 1923 - 2023, 189456 Royal Air Force) documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 429 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Douglas Petty and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2016-08-31
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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GR: Right, this is Gary Rushbrooke for the Bomber Command centre, and, we are today with Flying Officer Douglas Petty, it’s the thirty-first of August and we are at Doug’s home in York. So, er, right Doug, can you tell me a little bit about yourself, I know we’re in York, er, was you born here or?
DP: No, I was born in Shildon in County Durham but I was serving an apprenticeship with a garage in Darlington that erm, primarily looked after customers, wealthy customers from North Yorkshire who had either Bentley or Rolls Royce cars, and I’m telling you that because that’s why I ended up as a flight engineer
GR: Ah
DP: Erm, I decided when I got, you were allowed at that time, to stay on if you were in an apprenticeship until you had completed your five years, whereas otherwise you were called up at eighteen. So, at twenty years of age I knew, that I was then going to be taken into the forces in one form or another, so, I decided that I would rather volunteer for the force I wanted to go to, which was the RAF rather than being told I was going somewhere else, and the interesting thing about that, was that I was a twin and my brother Alan said, ‘oh I’m not going to bother’, he said, ‘I’ll just go were ever they send me’, and of course he got recruited into the Army which he didn’t really like. [laughs] But anyway having done that I’d volunteered for the RAF
GR: Were they, what I was going to say, you said you got a twin brother, erm, any other family?
DP: Yes, I’ve got a sister whose seven years younger than me and my parents of course, they’ve been dead for quite a number of years
GR: Yeh, and I believe, I know we were just having a look earlier, that er, your dad was in World War one
DP: Yes, he was in World War one, erm, he also [emphasis] did quite well, he came, he was, he came from, not a farming, he was a farmer’s labourer’s son and had never seen anything else other than working on someone’s farm, and he volunteered to go into the army in the first World War and, because he was so good at what he was doing, within two years he was a sergeant and within a year after that he was a lieutenant and so he’d done very well. But, one of the interesting things about it, I only found out all of this when I looked into his history after he died, because he never talked about any of it or told us anything about it, so I made up my mind when that happened, I thought well, this is silly I said, because people in the future want to know what happened in the past, so I made sure since then that I made sure that my records, and all that I’ve done are recorded at Leeming in particular and also Elvington
GR: Yes
DP: And of course, now they are going to be at Lincoln
GR: Yes, yes, ah that’s good. So, yes you were an apprentice?
DP: I was an apprentice and I was working on Rolls Royce and Bentley cars, so when I went along to volunteer for the RAF, the recruiting officer said to me, ‘What do you want to do, Petty?’, and I said, ‘I’d like to be a pilot’, and he said, ‘What’s your records?’, so I told him, told him what I’d been doing, and he said, ’You’re not going to be a pilot, you’re going to be a flight engineer’. [laughs] So, I went to London for initial training, etcetera, then to Torquay
GR: Right, would this be nineteen forty-two, forty-three?
DP: Nineteen forty-two
GR: You joined up in nineteen forty-two?
DP: Well the end of forty-two, beginning of forty-three, er went
GR: And from volunteering and going to the recruiting office, did they send you straight to London, or?
DP: Straight to London
GR: Oh, right yeh
DP: Where you erm, you were fitted out with uniform, and er all the various details and what, what service you wanted to do and things you want to do etcetera, it was all sorted out there. Then eventually then, from there, those of us who were going to be flight engineers, erm, well all ranks and all sections in the air force, we all went to Torquay for initial training where you were marched up and down with a little white flash in the top of your cap [laughs] and for quite a period of time. And from there I went to St Athan, in South Wales, where they were training flight engineers. I was there for six months, roundabout six months, undergoing training, but that was very interesting, they got us on engines, we had an instructor called Professor Tizard, and he was a wonderful man, he knew his engines inside out, both radial and inline engines, but he also had another thing which he practised and that was physiotherapy [laughs] and if anyone complained that they had a bad back and anything like that, amongst the students, he would just say, ‘right clear all the stuff off the table lads’, he said, he used to put the lad, whoever it was on there and then start kneading his back, [laughs] but anyway it was a good training. And from there I went on leave for a short while, and then I was posted up to North Yorkshire, erm, to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Topcliffe, and that’s when you met the crews you were going to fly with, and of course we were told at the time that this was all Canadians, so as a young lad, a twenty year old, you wondered who on earth you were going to meet, people from a place like Canada, which in those days was so far away it was remote
GR: Yes, yes
DP: But, you, the important thing was, you were totally allowed to mix with anyone and everyone until you eventually found people that you could mix with and talk to, and to me, in retrospect, I think that was one of the most important things that they ever did. Whether the RAF did it, as well as the Canadians I don’t know, but certainly the Canadians did it, you had to find your own crew
GR: Yes
DP: Yes, and find your own friends
GR: I know other people I’ve spoken to, yeh, when they were crewing up, they were literally all put in a big room and you just went round
DP: And chatted to people
GR: Like a pilot would come up and say, ‘what do you do?’, ‘I’m a rear gunner’, ‘oh do you fancy being in my crew?’, so yes, the RAF did
DP: Yes, oh well
GR: Exactly the same
DP: That’s interesting to know, because then, I’ve chatted to other people and no one’s ever said that directly to me
GR: Oh, definitely, yeh
DP: But, the Canadians certainly adopted the same system
GR: But when the Canadians were there, so you were there at Topcliffe to crew up, were the other six already a crew?
DP: They were already a crew, they had come from, Canada as a crew and training on of course, on twin-engine aircraft so they didn’t need a flight engineer. So, you trotted around until you met the six who were all together and then of course we started our training
GR: So, they adopted you, they were there looking for a flight engineer and they thought, we’ll have this one
DP: We’ll have this one, yes
[laughter]
DP: They used to make fun of my, a great deal of fun of my accent in those days, because I had a Durham accent, which sort of lengthened [laughs] the erm, some of the words but erm, they used to take the mickey out of me, but never mind, I got my own back in many ways [laughs]
GR: We’ll come to that
DP: It was good, because you got to know each other and you got to know, everything about each other and what went on. Now, after we completed at Topcliffe doing our training at the Heavy Conversion Unit, we then went to Leeming as a crew, and there you started doing your, virtually training again in actual fact, erm, as a crew, and one of the things that they did which was slightly different I think, to the RAF, was that most of the Canadians, trained for the particular post that they filled, whatever it was, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer etcetera, so you didn’t have, shall we say, bomb aimers or navigators who trained as pilots
GR: Right
DP: So, the consequence was someone had to be trained to fly the aircraft, so the first thing that they started with the flight engineer, was that you had to do so many hours on a link trainer, so I did something like thirty hours on a link trainer and then when we started training flying, I had to do landings, I had to land the aircraft to make sure there was someone available if anything happened to the pilot
GR: To the pilot
DP: So, I also learnt to fly the aircraft [laughs]
GR: Which is good, so in theory a second pilot
DP: Yes, yes, yes, of course as I said the Canadians didn’t have anyone who failed in one course, it was just the way they did things I suppose?
GR: And this was on Halifax?
DP: This was on Halifax’s then, yes. Originally of course on Rolls Royce engines, but later on, when we got on the squadron, we also flew Halifax’s with the Bristol radial engines. People have asked me many a time which I preferred, the inline engine or the radial engine, and I think obviously for one important reason I preferred the inline engine, and people have asked me before about this and have said well why what’s the difference, and I said well stop to think about it for a moment, I said because if you had an inline engine which was about four, four and a half feet long and the carburetor was at the back of the engine, I said, the air coming in onto the engine when you were flying, was warm by passing over the engine, so, there was very little problem with the carburetor, but, I said, with the radial engine which was only about eight, two feet eighteen inches, two feet from front to back, I said, the air had very little chance to get it warm, so, I said, quite often when you were coming back after you’d dropped your bombs, and you were doing a gradual descent with the engines throttled back, I said, you get your carburettors icing up, on radial engines, and I said, on one occasion we came, er, we were dropping back and we’d got two engines, er, two carburettors iced up, so I said, the only thing we could do then, was level out and increase the revs to heat the engines up again and eventually get them freed again, so we had, but on one occasion, in fact, we had to come back with one engine permanently feathered because it just wouldn’t unfreeze, wouldn’t, the carburetor. The carburettors in particular, was the Stromberg carburetor on those engines, which seemed to be quite susceptible to freezing if you didn’t make sure that didn’t get the engine warm enough to stop that happening. Erm, and we came back on that occasion, er, I think if I remember rightly, and I can, and I was doubtful about the height, but if you were below something like three or four thousand feet, as you came over the English coast, you had to fire off the colours of the day to let them know that you were
GR: Otherwise the local defence, anti-aircraft
DP: They think you might be opposite, so, that was another job the flight engineer did if you were coming back with engines feathered or faults and you’re low, was to make sure the colours of the day went off as you came over the coast, [laughs] to let them know that you were friendly [laughs]
GR: So, going back to Leeming, you were posted to 429 squadron
DP: Yes
GR: Erm, when was you first, how much training did you do at Leeming before first operation?
DP: Erm, we landed, we came, landed at Leeming on [pause] early March and we did the first operation at the end of March, so we were
GR: About a month?
DP: About three weeks
GR: Three weeks
DP: Yes, with training there, er, of one sort and another, and of course with me having to do something like thirty hours on the link trainer as well to make sure I could fly the aircraft, [laughs] and then we eventually, and then of course the thing that happened then, was that each member of a new crew went with an experienced crew on an operation. Erm, and people often say to me, why did you do thirty-one ops and I said well, because I went on one with another crew, and I said, as did all the rest of my crew, and I said, my pilot went on his, and when he came back he said, ‘that’s it, I’m not doing anymore’, [laughs] and he was as far as we know, he was sent to Sheffield to the detention centre for lack of moral fibre
GR: Oh right
DP: But we never heard of him again, quite honestly
GR: So, the original pilot, the six of them?
DP: That was it
GR: He just did one and?
DP: So, we had to go back again to the Heavy Conversion Unit, and our pilot that we flew with Mitch, Robert Mitchell, he’d come over on his own because he’d been training other pilots in Canada, he was a particularly good pilot and had spent quite a bit of time training new pilots, and then came over on his own, so the reverse happened. Instead of six people looking for an engineer, it was six people looking for a pilot [laughs] So, anyway again, we
GR: Was that unnerving at the time, the fact that, that pilot had come back and?
DP: Well, we hadn’t flown with him on any operations, so in a sense it wasn’t
GR: Right
DP: I suppose if we’d flown any operations, but as we were each going with an experienced crew, we erm, we didn’t know that fact that he just didn’t have the courage to carry on
GR: So, on your first trip, you know as, with the experienced crew, can you remember where you went to, do you remember what the raid was, or what it was like, what did you feel about it?
DP: Well, I’ve got my records but, erm, I’d have to look at it to find out which one it was
GR: Oh, no worries
DP: As far as I can remember [pause] no I can’t
GR: No
DP: I need to look at my records to see where it was, it wasn’t a particularly long one anyway
GR: No
DP: Now, one of the things that happened to us, and I think this is interesting really, is that our bomb aimer turned out to be particularly good. I mean there’s probably more people know at that time if you got within five miles of the target, they considered that you’d done extremely well, [laughs] but our bomb aimer was extremely good at making sure that we were at least somewhere near the correct aiming point, so much so, that they decided on squadron that we were an ideal crew for mine laying. So, we did nine operations mine laying. [laughs] Now, this is totally different to bombing because bombing is at nineteen to twenty thousand feet, mine laying you were down about six hundred feet
GR: And was that as a single aircraft?
DP: No, there was often, probably four, or half a dozen aircraft mine laying, and of course it was in the Norwegian Fjords and the Baltic, where we were doing this, and quite often you’d be given the target where there was probably, obviously a German battleship, loitering and hiding, waiting to come out and attack, convoys in the, in the, on the way to, between Russia and us
GR: Yeh, so this would be, this was, March nineteen forty-four, weren’t it?
DP: Yes, yes, or just after it
GR: And that was going up to Norway when the Tirpitz was laid up?
DP: Yes, yes
GR: And they were doing a lot of mine laying, to prevent the Tirpitz coming
DP: That’s right
GR: Yeh
DP: So, we did nine of those, and they were, well, exciting as well as interesting because it was on one of those that a JU 88 attacked us, and the mid upper gunner managed to shoot him down. He came in from above because we were obviously, we were flying so low, but this fella came in from above to attack us and the mid upper gunner got him and shot him down, and of course there was this big shout of glee from the upper turret, ‘I’ve shot the bugger’, [laughs]
GR: I’ve got him, did you sustain any damage or?
DP: We had some, he’d had a go at us and there was a few, one or two holes in the fuselage, but nothing serious. So, when we got back, the, well, at the end of doing the nine, mine laying, because we did further bombing raids after that, we ended up then with the pilot, the navigator, the bomb aimer, the mid upper turret, the mid upper gunner all with DFC’s, we had four DFC’s in the crew, and I was, I mean, also and I got rewarded for it in the sense that I was then called to see the C.O. and told that I was going to be commissioned
GR: Right
DP: I suppose that was because they wanted to keep the DFC’s for themselves, you know, for the Canadians, well obviously I would understand it if they did, they didn’t want to give any that were, they could allocate too, to anyone else
GR: You can understand, yes, your bomb aimer was very good and obviously got the DFC for that, your mid upper gunner if he shot down a JU 88 and they tended to get an award, but er
DP: But I was quite happy, so we ended up in actual fact, with six commissioned officers and one sergeant who was the radio operator [laughs]
GR: Ah, right, yes
DP: Oh dear, but they were a, they were, I can think. One of the things about the mine laying trips which erm, I really liked the Norwegians for, and so, also the Baltic as well, was, when they heard you coming you’d see lights going on in all the houses, obviously they’d give you, they’d guide you in to what you wanted to do, and then after you’d dropped your mines and you were coming out, you’d see the lights had started to go out again as the German troops went round
[laughter]
DP: Oh dear, but of course with us flying at about six hundred feet to drop mines, I mean, the anti-aircraft guns weren’t any use, so they had to rely on fighters to do any attacking, and they did a lot of damage I must admit did the German fighters, because there was four of us went from 429 Squadron on one particular raid and out of the four we were the only ones to come back
GR: Oh, right
DP: They got three of them, the fighters, but of course you are doing a long run in on a steady course, at six hundred feet, and the bomb aimers saying, ‘steady, steady, steady’,
GR: Were these daylight or night time?
DP: They were both
GR: Both, yeh
DP: Yes, we could lay mines at night as well which was a good thing, but er, you were doing a lot of flying at about six hundred feet on a steady course, so you were very, you know, very prone to the German fighters
GR: You would be, yeh
DP: Having a go at you, at least when you were on the normal bombing raid you could take evasive action by corkscrewing and things, but on mine laying, you couldn’t, not at that height. [laughs] So, it was a case of flying straight and level for quite a long time, a relatively long time, you know, maybe twenty minutes or so you see, so erm
GR: And, when you said, out of the four of you that went, you were the only ones to come back, did later on, did you find out exactly what happened to the other three, or?
DP: They were shot down
GR: They were all shot down?
DP: Yes, they were all shot down, yes, yes, but what happened to them, erm, whether they landed on land, or whether they landed in the water, I don’t know
GR: You don’t know?
DP: I was never able to find out
GR: Were they all from the same squadron, 429?
DP: Yes, yes, all from 429
GR: That’s a big loss in one night
DP: It is a big loss, isn’t it, yes, three aircraft
GR: And probably makes you think twice
[laughter]
DP: Yes, yes
GR: So, then you went back on bombing operations?
DP: Well, they were mixed all the way through, they weren’t done totally separately, and they were mixed all the way through, erm
GR: ‘Cos how long did your tour last, if you started roundabout end of March forty four?
DP: We did the last one in March forty five
GR: Oh, right
DP: So, we did twelve months, but of course there was the break in between going back to Heavy Conversion Unit, and back again
GR: Ah
DP: That’s why it took so long to do thirty-one operations [laughs]
GR: And, were they all on Halifax’s, or?
DP: No
GR: No
DP: Er, again in retrospect, you’d think why on earth did they do it? But, we had three operations to do to the end of our tour and then they converted us on to Lancasters. Why they didn’t leave us to finish off on Halifax’s, I do not know, so we had that break when we spent almost a month converting to a Lancaster and learning to fly a Lancaster, and then to do our last three operations [laughs]
GR: Well, I must admit it does seem, strange
DP: It was strange wasn’t it, it was yes
GR: Although, it gave you, er, not an experience but yeh, you are somebody who actually flew both aircraft
DP: Yes, I think in actual fact, if you think logical about it, it was probably because they wanted to get, they’d been told by the Air Ministry that all the Halifax’s were going out and they were sending Lancasters in. So, it was a case that they were having to convert you, rather than just doing it out of awkwardness [laughs]
GR: And what did you feel about the two aircraft? I know we spoke briefly before the recording, but er, which aircraft did you prefer?
DP: Well, as I said before, I think I preferred the Halifax purely and simply, although it wasn’t as fast as the Lancaster and it couldn’t carry as big a bomb load and couldn’t fly quite as high, it was easier to move around in, and I think probably in retrospect that made you feel safer, knowing it was easier to get out of, if you needed to do so. Because of the problem with that, I mean, getting back over, well one of the things that I liked about the Halifax as well, as a flight engineer, was the fact that [coughs] you would sometimes get hang ups, and the bomb aimer would say, ‘number’s one, three and seven haven’t gone’. So, it was the flight engineer’s job to go down the fuselage straight away, and take off sort of a twelve-inched diameter metal cover where each bomb was, there were turn buckles on the top, took them off, put your hand down and then manually release them, and then put that cover back on, do the next one and get rid of the next one. And, we’d been on a daylight raid and we were coming back, and the bomb aimer, on the way back and we were descending, erm, flying, and he said, ‘we’ve got three hang ups’, and that was the most we ever had, and of course, I had to nip down the fuselage and take these three circular covers off and trigger them with my hand, and get rid of the three of them, and the bomb aimer then said to the pilot, ‘bombs gone, you can close the bomb doors’, now, ‘cos you’re flying with the bomb doors open of course, which slows you down and erm, so I put the covers back and when I got back I plugged into the intercom again, and he said, ‘you did very well Doug’, I said, ‘what do you mean?’, he said, ‘you dropped them on a little village’, [laughs] oh, dear, dear, dear. Yes, and that was a Sunday daylight raid so somebody was probably sat out with their lunches [laughs] but you don’t know what you’re doing with them, you had no idea, do you?
GR: No
DP: No idea, yes, erm
GR: So, thirty-one operations over the period, forty-four into forty-five
DP: Yes, yes, just about twelve months from one to the other, yes. So, whatever happened to our first pilot, of course, we will never know whether he was just sent back to Canada or, erm, I would imagine probably from hearing of other people that went to Sheffield with lack of moral fibre that they were immediately demoted, I think that’s normally what happened to them, and they were. I think quite often, that I’ve heard from other people that sometimes they make people who’d simply been put on ground duties or something like that?
GR: Yeh, literally working in the kitchens whatever they, not the worst job, but you know they’d be demoted to probably to AC2 or something like that, and just, yeh
DP: One of the things that, always tickled me was that on 427 Squadron, they started the habit, erm, [laughs] on their last operation, everybody would use the Elsan toilet and then the flight engineer would throw it out over Germany, [laughs] until everybody got told off, [laughs] about all these disappearing Elsan toilets
[laughter]
GR: So, did you do that on your last op?
DP: No
GR: No, no
DP: No, we’d all been told off about it before then, but it was 427 Squadron that started that habit
GR: And, over the period of the thirty-one operations, any close calls or?
DP: Erm
GR: Obviously you were attacked by the JU 88
DP: Oh, yes, yes by the JU 88, yes, we got shot up quite a bit on one, and it was anti-aircraft fire more than anything else, and in fact, erm, I was up beside the pilot fortunately, on the Halifax and because we were going into the target, and that’s where I was, beside the pilot, and not on my engineering panel. On the Lancaster, you were sat there anyway because the engineering pilot was immediately on the right in the second pilot position, but on the Halifax, it was behind the pilot, on the panel there, and I’d left my panel to be with the pilot while we were going into the target, and when I went back to my panel to check again, there was a lump of shrapnel in the engineer’s panel. It had come through the Perspex cover and it was quite big, it was about two inches long, from an anti-aircraft shell, and it had come through the Perspex and it was stuck in the panel, And, I kept it for many, many years as a souvenir [laughs] of that particular raid, but where it is now I don’t know, it probably got lost when we moved houses at some time, but er, I used to show that to people and say, ‘look, that nearly hit me’, [laughs] but it didn’t because I wasn’t there in actual fact, I wasn’t there
GR: So, what did it feel like to get back, after your last operation and you knew that was it?
DP: A great deal of relief I suppose, and yet at the same time, people have asked me this question so often before, and what was it like, what was it like on operations? And, obviously I was relieved, pleased, but I suppose it was in many ways, first of all let me go back a bit
GR: Yes
DP: At Leeming, it was a permanent station, so they had houses, two rows of houses on the station for staff, and what they decided to do there, was that the permanent staff on the station, lived in the mess’s, and the houses were allocated to crews. So, a crew, no matter what your rank was, lived together in a house
GR: Right, which is different to a lot of bases
DP: Oh, yes
GR: So, you had your own house?
DP: We had our own house, and there was seven of you in a house and there was two rooms downstairs, there was three, two rooms upstairs and a bathroom, so normally two people would share a room, and you lived together there, and you worked together, so, you knew everybody intimately and you had to learn to live together, didn’t you?
GR: Yes
DP: The drawback to that was, we very quickly found out, that you’d probably be in the mess, then you’d walk back to your house and you’d see a vehicle outside, next door or a few down the road, with ground crew loading luggage into it, and you knew very well that that was a crew that had gone, and their luggage was taken, and even if you hadn’t been told that an aircraft had been lost, the fact that you saw this happening, you knew one had. I think to me, that was one of the things that was wrong, the fact that you’d got to know that a crew had been lost, by the fact they were taking all their personal belongings out of the house
GR: But, that obviously happened on every other base where, wherever?
DP: But, it must have done, yes, yes, but it had to done and that was the end of it, it had to be done, yes
GR: So, yes, so, so, yes, a feeling of relief when your operations finished, erm?
DP: Yes, yes, definitely, and the fact that I had only just got married, in the February, and we finished at the end of March, [laughs] that also was an additional reason for a feeling of relief
GR: So, did you, did you meet your wife during the course of the war, or?
DP: yes, when I was at St Athan in South Wales, where I was training as a flight engineer, erm, that was interesting as well because this happened to be a Sunday or something like that, and a friend of mine and I had set out, and we said, ‘oh come on we’ll go into Cardiff and have a look round there’. So we got on a train and went into Cardiff, and we came out of the station, and the first building, in those days anyway, was just outside the station concourse, and was the YMCA, and, oh we’ll’ go there and have something to eat or something like that, so we were going up the stairs to the YMCA which was on the top floor, and coming down the stairs was two young ladies, [laughs] and we started to talk to them, and they said what are you doing today and we said we are just in town, we are going to have something to eat and then have a look round. They said, well, would you like to go to a party? [laughs] we said, what sort of? they said, we are having a party at this other girl’s house, June Ranbury, her name was, and mine was Betty Edwards, and we said yes, we don’t mind going to a party the two of us, so they took us and we had to get on the bus and go to this person’s house. When we got there, the girls said, we have decided which one we want, and this June Ranbury wanted me and the Betty Edwards said she’d have the other fella, but anyway erm, there was some discussion when we got there and we decided that they’d made the wrong decision and that I preferred Betty Edwards and he preferred the other one [laughter] and that’s how we got together
GR: And that’s how it worked out
DP: That’s how it worked out, yes
GR: So, was Betty in the services, was she?
DP: No, she was in the Royal Ordnance factory, and that always tickles me because she was eighteen-year-old, eighteen years old, and she was put on a, trained to work a lathe, turning gun barrels for tanks, an eighteen-year-old girl turning gun barrels for tanks, [laughs] and that was an interesting life at that age because they used to work twelve-hour shifts, twelve hours day for a fortnight, twelve hours nights for a fortnight, turning gun barrels, erm
GR: I think that’s what a lot of people forget, erm, obviously, the majority of the men, and some of the women, were off fighting
DP: Yes, yes
GR: But the whole country was, erm, was working to make that possible
DP: To make it happen, yes
GR: Erm, and yeh, all the young girls went in to some sort of, whether it was making uniforms, making armaments, and they were doing something, working on the land to produce the food, so
DP: She had some stories, some interesting stories, I’ll tell you about that because, they had people come from various organisations, when it was their meal break, in the middle of the night or the middle of the day, to talk to them, obviously, erm, encouragement to keep on working, and she said on two occasions, they had a Russian airman come to talk to them who could speak English
GR: That’s good
DP: Yes, what they were doing in this country I’ve no idea, but she said they used to say, it’s great that we are comrades and that sort of thing, she said, she will always remember that, and she said, how we used to cheer them and this sort of thing, the fact that they were all so involved in the war
GR: So, you carried on a romance, you got married in February, finished your ops in March, what happened to you then?
DP: Well, I decided, that I liked being involved with aircraft, so I applied and I joined what was then, the Department of Civil Aviation
GR: Right, is this after you were demobbed or while you were still?
DP: After I was demobbed
GR: Right
DP: Yes, yes
GR: Sorry, I’ll go back. Where were you on VE Day? So, if you finished March forty-five, May forty-five, can you remember where you were, on leave or?
DP: I was on leave, but I can’t, I’ve tried and tried to remember what we did, my wife and I at that time, but I just can’t remember what we did, but anyway
GR: But, when was you demobbed, I presume you were demobbed in ooh, forty-six, forty-seven
DP: Yes, I was demobbed in [pause] when was it, I’ve got the date somewhere?
GR: I know you said you got sent to India, didn’t you?
DP: Yes, I came home from India in the March, which was, the country was deep in snow, and I had, I suppose something like six weeks leave, so it was April to the beginning of May, when I actually, officially left the RAF, and that’s when I decided that I liked being involved with aviation, and it just so happened that they were looking for a mechanical engineer at Cardiff Airport, and I applied for it and I got the job. Cardiff Airport at that time was at Pengam Moors, and I can add a little story to this which is interesting. Because, because it was at Pengam Moors, the runway was only a single runway, one end of it was over Cardiff and the other end was over the salt marshes. So, because there was a possibility of aircraft running off the end of the runway, we were equipped with airbags, large airbags and a compressor which was used to rescue these things, and I hadn’t been there very long, when a phone call came from Bristol which was the headquarters, to say that Bill Pegg had put the Bristol Britannia down in the mud on the River Severn, because he had an engine on fire, and this was in February, and because I was the nearest airport, with airbags, would I take a couple of men and go there and to help to rescue this thing. So, off we went in February, and I took two men with me, and we got across to the other side of the Severn, on then, what was a ferry at [unclear] which was part of the way across, and it wasn’t far away from where he’d ditched the aircraft. So, we got there and there we were in February three of us, wading about in mud, for two days, while they took, while they, all the staff from Bristol, took the seats out of the aircraft, and then we filled the fuselage with airbags and inflated them, so when the tide came in, the thing floated, and the army had come with a big crane, they hauled it to the side so they could then lift it out, onto the hard surface where we were able to get our airbags out then, and get back to work again and at least I got a letter of commendation from the Managing Director of Bristol Airways for helping to rescue their plane [laughs]
GR: Rescue the aircraft
DP: [laughs] Yes, and another thing which is interesting. I moved from there to London airport as the engineer in charge, and in those days, there was two of us because there was a central area and there was a north side, and in those days all the equipment on an aerodrome belonged to Civil Aviation. Now, it belongs to the airlines themselves, but in those days, it belonged to Civil Aviation, so they had to have someone there to look, to be in charge of looking after it. I was given the central area, where we had fuel bowsers, steps and tractors, all sorts of things, equipment like that, and the interesting thing which that I think they probably got rid of years ago, was my workshop was in the central area but it was underground, so, it was down a long ramp into the workshop and back out again with everything. In nineteen fifty-five, I think it was, fifty-five or fifty-six, Russia decided that they would like to introduce passenger flights from Moscow to London, so they were told by Civil Aviation that they would have to send an aircraft over and it would have to undergo certain tests and one thing and the other, to ensure that everything was okay, and it was a Tupolev, what was it, a Tupolev 1, 0, something, it was an ex bomber anyway, and it had been converted to a civil airline, and they’d taken all the innards out of it and put seats in it, it could seat about thirty people I think, if I remember rightly. Anyway, it arrived, this is the important thing, and as the engineer in charge of the central area, I was charged with making sure it was re-fuelled and everything was done necessary. So, when it finished, I went up to the aircraft, and the crew incidentally, could all speak English, I got hold of the engineer and I said right, ‘we are ready to refuel your aircraft’, he said ‘no, no, no’, I said, ‘why, why not?’ ‘I need to test the fuel first’, he said, and the tanker was in three compartments, so we had to get some steps so we could get up there and take a sample of each compartment and take it back on his aircraft and test it, to make sure that we hadn’t tampered with it, and then eventually he came out and said, ‘yes, okay, you can refuel the aircraft’, [laughs] So, we got it refuelled and got it all ready for take-off, and then the boss there said, well when it does the, or the Civil Aviation said, for this trial it has to have a full passenger load, to take off, and it had to fly out on what was green one in those days, which was the main approach and take off way out and fly out over Europe which was Brussels and back again, and land with a full passenger load, you see, to make sure everything was okay, so Douglas made sure he was one of the passengers [laughter] So, we got on this aircraft, this Tupolev 104, erm, and there were two hostesses on board, and we were only flying I should think, about an hour and a half out over Europe and back again to land, and during that time we were fed with caviar and champagne [laughter] and, back it came and it was accepted so they started. So, I think, whether any of the other people, or any of the twenty-nine or so who went on that are still alive, I don’t know, so I am certainly one of the very few people on a
GR: The first Russian
DP: Russian aircraft
[laughter]
GR: I thought you were going to say the aircraft was that bad or that dodgy that you couldn’t get any passengers and
DP: No, we did alright, yeh, no, I mean in those days when you were young, you didn’t think of the danger of it, but er, it was just an experience that’s all to fly on a Russian aircraft in those days
GR: Oh, God, yeh
DP: Without a doubt
GR: I know you were telling me before and it was just a little story, that when you finished at the airport, you went to be a forestry engineer?
DP: Yes, yes
GR: Erm, and there was a story about ploughing a field?
DP: Oh, yes, yes, well it was, it was, the mechanical engineer for the North of England, based in York, and that’s what, why I still live in York, for all these years, erm, [pause] and we at that time, the Forestry Commission was very busy throughout the country, Scotland in particular, and the North of England, acquiring land and planting it erm, to get softwoods for papermaking and that sort of thing, because most before that had been imported from places like Canada and places like that, erm, and the government had decided that we really ought to have far more of our own produce for paper, trees for paper, rather than importing it all. So, large areas, vast areas of land in those days were acquired and the North Yorkshire moors was part of it and a lot of planting was done over the years, but, unfortunately, in one sense, one area was where, when we were flying during the war, was used as a practice bombing area on the North York moors, and it had been marked out with a great big RAF roundel about, probably about thirty feet across, and we used to drop eleven-pound practise bombs. These were all recorded, a camera on the aircraft recorded where you’d dropped them and that, to see whether you’d managed to hit this big target [laughs] and you were only flying at about five to six thousand feet dropping these eleven-pound practise bombs, but consequently the whole of that area was scattered with these things, so when it was decided, when I joined the Forestry Commission, that this area had to be planted. Ploughing was done between two foot six to three foot deep in peat, and to provide a mound to plant trees on, to keep them out of the water and so of course, the first thing that had to be done, it had to be cleared of all these bombs, so, the army disposal people were called in for quite a long time going all over this area and they eventually produced quite a big heap of these things, which were eventually blown up, er, but they said, that of course we can’t have got them all, so you must be careful when you are ploughing it. So, the first thing that was, we decided had to be done was that the ploughing tractor which was a crawler tractor working on peat, was to fit armour plating on it for the driver to protect him at least [laughs] from anything that may happen buy fortunately nothing ever did. [laughs] One or two more bombs were turned up, but er, they’d either gone off or they were, turning them up in peat didn’t make any difference to them and they were eventually all disposed of, and it was eventually planted, but it struck me as being ironic that I’d been involved in dropping them in the first place [laughs] and involved in getting rid of them in the second place
GR: [inaudible] Twenty-five, thirty years later [laughs]
DP: Yes [laughs]
GR: Oh, that is good
DP: Yes, oh, dear
GR: That’s wonderful Doug, I shall pause it there, thank you
DP: Yes, as I said earlier on, I was posted to their headquarters, and for some peculiar reason I was put in charge of statistics, which a section, with, what was known then as Hollerith machines, and I had eight girls, Anglo-Indian girls and the Hollerith machine was a punch card system, so information would come in from all the units of how many aircraft they had or how many sergeants they had or whatever, and these girls would punch these cards, and then they were fed into the Hollerith machines and the holes were read by the machine
GR: Yes
DP: And then, the information would come out as statistics you see, and I hadn’t been there very long in charge of this, only a week or two, and these statistics came out, and they didn’t agree with what the station had said on a previous occasion about how many, I’ve forgotten what it was, personnel or whatever, that they had, so I thought well, this was in, I was in Delhi by the way and this was in [unclear] so, I went to the Wing Commander and said, ‘excuse me sir’, I said, ‘I’ve got this discrepancy here between what has come up on the Hollerith machine’, I said, ‘and what the units say’, I said, ‘what do I do about it sir?’, he said, ‘you know what to do Petty’, I said, ‘and what’s that sir?’ he said, ‘you get yourself down there [laughs] and count them yourself’, [laughs] I thought this is daft, so I said, ‘ok sir, ok’, so I said, ‘how do I get down there?’ and he said, ‘get on to the Indian air force’, he said, ‘if they’ve got anything going down in that direction, they can take you’. So of course, I got onto the Indian air force and said, ‘have you got anything going down to Secunderabad?’ and that, oh, they had something going next week or something like that, and I said, ‘right oh, and can I go with him?’, ‘Yes, yes of course you can’, so I went to the airport, the Indian airport, whatever the date was and it was a Dakota and an Indian pilot, and we met each other and said, ‘how do you do’, and that sort of thing, and I said, ‘I’m coming with you’, ‘Oh, that’s great, that’s great, somebody to talk to’, sort of thing, so we took off and we are flying down India and we were probably at about six thousand feet, five or six thousand feet, and in front of us was a massive great big cumulonimbus thunder cloud and I thought oh well, he’ll fly round that, he didn’t, he flew straight into it. We were tossed about all over the place in this Dakota, and eventually we got out of it the other side, and I said to him, ‘General, I don’t want to be rude but’, I said, ‘I’ve flown in Bomber Command’, I said, ‘thirty-one operations’, I said, ‘and I was never really scared’, but I said, ‘with you on this, I was bloody frightened’, [laughs] ‘Oh, I’m sorry’, he said, ‘well it’s no good being sorry, we could have been killed’. [laughs] On another occasion I had to go somewhere, and it wasn’t a Dakota this time, it was another Indian pilot and quite honestly, I don’t know, how their air force ever survived, and I can’t remember what it was but it was a twin, smaller twin engine aircraft that I was er, I could go with him, and we took off and we got up to about three or four thousand, three, something like three thousand feet and he’s sat in the pilot’s seat and I’m sat next to him. He put automatic pilot on and he got up out of his seat and went down the fuselage, to the back, and then came back a few, you know, seconds later really and sat down again, and I said, ‘what was that?’, he said, ‘I’d forgotten I’d taken off on the reserve tanks, instead of the main tanks, so I just went down to change over’, [laughter] Oh, dear, [laughter]
GR: But, you’re still here, so [laughter]
DP: Yes, in this country they, I’ve since then, I’ve flown in two things, I’ve been in a hot air balloon and I’ve been in the Goodyear airship
GR: Oh, interesting
DP: Yes, the Goodyear airship was from Doncaster, erm, and the funny thing was, this was when I was working for the Forestry Commission and I was buying at that time, all the Goodyear tyres
GR: Yep
DP: And, they rang me up this day and they said, ‘by the way we are bringing the Goodyear airship up to Doncaster, would you like a flight in it?’ I said, ‘that sounds very interesting’, he said, ‘would you like to bring anyone with you?’ So, I came home and said to my wife, ‘would you like to fly in an airship?’, and she’d never flown in her life, and she said, ‘no thank you’, but my daughter who was about, in her teens then she said, ‘I’ll go with you Dad’, [laughter] so we went down to Doncaster and had about a forty-minute flight in the Goodyear airship [laughs]
GR: That’s good
DP: Which was very interesting, yeh, very interesting. I enjoyed that, it was a totally uneventful flight it was lovely being able to look at everything at that sort of speed in an airship
GR: Yeh, better than flying in India?
[laughter]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Doug Petty
Creator
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Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-31
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APettyD160831
PPettyD1601
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:53:28 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Glamorgan
India
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Shildon, County Durham Doug Petty was a car maintenance apprentice before joining the Royal Air Force in 1942 as a flight engineer.
He completed technical training at RAF St Athan, where he met Betty, his future wife. From there Doug went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Topcliffe to meet his Canadian crew before being posted to 429 Sqn at RAF Leeming. He recalls his pilot was removed for lack of moral fibre and they had to find another one. Doug learned to fly the Halifax in case the pilot was injured and from there the crew completed a tour of 30 operations together. He says each crew lived in a house on the station instead of in the mess.
Doug flew mine-laying operations to Norway to keep the Tirpitz from the convoys and during this period they shot down a Ju88. Some of the crew were awarded medals while Doug was commissioned. On another operation Doug was away from his engineer panel when shrapnel hit it. He says he kept that piece of shrapnel for many years.
For their last three operations, the crew converted to Lancasters but Doug tells us he preferred the Halifax because it was easier to move around in. He also describes the carburettor icing problems on the Bristol Hercules engine.
He was relieved to complete his last operation, having recently married Betty and was sent to India where he recalls that flying with the Indian Air Force was more frightening than wartime operations.
After being demobbed, Doug went to work at Cardiff Airport and then London Airport in charge of aerodrome equipment. He recalls the arrival of the first Russian airliner.
Doug left aviation for the Forestry Commission and found it ironic that he helped clear a bombing range of unexploded ordnance, which he had probably dropped, before planting new trees there. He was invited to fly in the Goodyear airship and took his teenage daughter along.
Doug says he was determined to tell his own experiences because his father had never spoken about his WW1 service.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Indian Air Force
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
429 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
flight engineer
fuelling
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
love and romance
military living conditions
mine laying
RAF Leeming
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
sanitation
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/538/8774/PWinterH1508.1.jpg
e3a345bb092e974dc8b0907b99431d4c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/538/8774/AWinterH150708.1.mp3
af948046d23b15114df2b093cdfc73b5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Winter, Harry
H Winter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Winter, H
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Harry Winter and two photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 431 and 427 Squadrons before he was shot down and became a prisoner of war. He was one of ten members of the Ex-Prisoner of War Association invited to 10 Downing Street in 2014.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AS: Okay so, this is Andrew Sadler on Wednesday 8th July 2015 interviewing Harry Winter on behalf of the Bomber Command Archive at his home in Streatham South London. Can I start Harry by asking you where and when you were born?
HW: I was born in Cardiff in 1922.
AS: And can you tell me what your family background was?
HW: Yes my father was an er Engineer and Fitter Turner he was a tradesman er he spent the First World War at sea as an engineer on ships and when he got married he worked for the Cardiff Gas Light and Coal Company as a Maintenance Engineer. Er I went to school in Cardiff from about five years of age to Lansdowne Road Boys School and I left there at fourteen years of age, in those days er jobs were difficult to obtain and money was very very short although my father being a tradesman he was in in work all of his life er he had no problem with regard to employment, um and I left at fourteen and I went to the local paper making mill it was a very large mill I went there and I started in the office there as an assistant stock keeper then I went on to costing and finished up er on um on the order department for one particular machine making vegetable parchment, er I was on that until 1941 er when the war had started and I first went into the Home Guard and spent twelve months in the Home Guard and then on January 2nd 1941 Cardiff got blitzed and I decided to pay them back by endeavouring to bomb them, my age nineteen, I was coming up for nineteen when I would have had to be conscripted in any case and I didn’t want to go into the army so I volunteered for air crew, er I was sent to Weston Super Mare for my air crew selection board, passed and er waited er for a few months while er they they organised the er recruitment etcetera. I was called up in September 1941 sent to Padgate er in Lancashire where I was kitted out and then on to Blackpool where we did our initial training such as square bashing and learning Morse, although I had been learning Morse in the Home Guard I was very helpful that I knew most of it when I got there which helped a great deal, um I was in Blackpool from September until the second week of January 1942 er then I was sent on leave and went to Yatesbury Number 2 Wireless School at in Wiltshire er to learn the technical side of wireless etcetera etcetera, and learn about all the various instruments etcetera, and of course drill and er various other things. I left I passed out there as a wireless operator in March 1942 and er I was sent on er oh am not quite sure what you call it on I was sent to Angle a fighter station near Milford Haven to get experience on the radio communication, I spent the summer there until September 1942 er then I was posted to Cranwell Number 1 Radio School where we had more technical work on the more advanced radio instruments etcetera etcetera, and the new inventions. I spent from September until December at Cranwell then I was posted back to Yatesbury for a refresher course in January 43. I left Yatesbury as wireless operator fully fledged in March 1943 and I was sent to Manby Air Armaments School for a short course on air gunnery, then on to er advanced flying unit at Bobbington in Worcestershire where we were flying on Avro Ansoms with navigators, and trainee navigators. From there we were posted to 23 OTU at Pershore er where they were using and er what do you call them using what’s the aircraft er, oh dear –
Other: [?]
HW: Wellingtons [laughs] they were using Wellington bombers, er there we got crewed up I met the navigator of course at Bobbington and er by the time we got to Pershore we had agreed to join together and try and make a crew, er when we were all assembled at Pershore they put us in a hanger and the pilots and bomb aimers and rear gunners were all assembled there and we just mixed together and made up our own crews we weren’t forced to fly with any person we met each other and er we er crewed up together and er there we did our OTU, and from there I did my first operation. Um about June 43 we were sent on a sea search er in the North Sea there had been an American bombing raid the day before and some aircraft had come down in the sea so we went over over the North Sea to er search for a er dinghies etcetera, er we went over as far as Texel and er we got fired on by the anti-aircraft guns at Texel and one of the shells had hit the port engine and er put it out of action so we limped back to an aerodrome near Rugby where my the pilot had been trained as an advanced pilot, er my pilot was an American my navigator and bomb aimer and rear gunner were all Canadians, er we landed at this aerodrome just outside Rugby and the next day we were picked up by another aircraft and returned back to Pershore, that was the only exciting thing I had up to that present moment. From Pershore I was sent to Topcliffe Number 1659 HGU Heavy Conversion Unit where we were converted to Halifaxes and we were there for a month and then we were posted, I was posted, we were posted first of all to 431 Squadron at Tholthorpe in Yorkshire, we did a few trips there and um wee the apparently 427 had lost a few aircraft at that time so they transferred us to 427 Squadron, er 427 Squadron it was this was all 6 Group which was all Canadian Air Force, um er 427 Squadron was adopted by the Metro Goldwyn Mayer Film Company so we were called the Lion Squadron and we had a model lion presented to us by one of the Director’s of Metro Goldwyn Mayer in June 1943, there is a record of it er Pathe Newsreel recorded it I have a recording of it on my computer showing them presenting the lion to the Squadron Commander. We settled down at Leeming, various operations came up and we did various operations over Germany, oh France, Italy and Germany, and during the August and September and then in October er we were doing a few bombing raids in various places in Germany again and on 22nd October we were, oh, [I’ll just finish my coffee, whispers]
AS: Your going now.
HW: Yes we did various trips they varied um er sometimes they were quiet other times a lot of flak and night fighters attacking and er [?] sometimes very heavy cloud, intense cloud, icing etcetera, we experienced all this and um the er er sometimes we had a bomb on sky markers and sometimes if it was clear we bombed on ground markers, er these all went under special names, er they they these names had been invented by the air by er er, what was it, a New Zealand er Marshall who was in charge of um, let me think of it, oh dear my mind wait a minute, er he he introduced what did they call it, pathfinders yes pathfinders, pathfinders used to drop these various target indicators and we used to have to bomb target indicators. Er on 22nd October 1943 we were informed that we were on another operation er we went for our briefing and we were informed that we were 560 bombers were going to bomb Kassel er we were briefed and er went to our aircraft to test them er we were allocated “L for Love” which had the name “Lorraine Day” on one side and “London’s Revenge” on the other side, we went then for our pre-flight breakfast er and er we were due to take off at five thirty in the afternoon, we kitted out went to the aircraft got in the aircraft and um the pilot tried to start the engine and the port inner wouldn’t start we tried three or four times so it was getting near five thirty then so er I got the Aldis lamp out and signalled across to flying control that the engine was US unserviceable, er a few minutes later a seal [?] came over in a car and the pilot informed that the aircraft wouldn’t start the engine wouldn’t start and of course the er maintenance flight sergeant he confirmed it just wouldn’t go so er the the commanding officer said ‘G George is bombed up a spare aircraft go over to that’, er we the transport that had taken us out to dispersal had gone so we had to transfer all of our kit across to “G George”, “G George” had no window that’s the strips of foil for anti-aircraft er er radar blotting out and er so we had to carry all the bundles of window between us from one aircraft to the other, er we got into the aircraft and that started up and of course five o’clock five thirty just after five thirty we took off. We flew down to Cromer where all the aircraft er that were bombing that night congregated to assemble for the final trip across the North Sea, we flew across the North Sea and of course immediately we arrived over the Dutch border we started getting attacked by flak, um there was a diversion er flight going to Frankfurt so we were our course was towards Frankfurt for a while and then we turned off north of Frankfurt to er for Kassel, just before reaching Frankfurt the rear gunner er informed the pilot there was a night fighter coming up on the stern, er the mid upper gunner confirmed he could see it also so er he of course the rear gunner took over then and he requested he demanded the aircraft be put into a um corkscrew the er the pilot corkscrewed the aircraft and at the same time the two gunners started firing on the night fighter er we by the time we came out of the corkscrew the night fighter had gone so we carried on towards Kassel, er we were the second wave into Kassel er there were three waves altogether we were the second wave um five minutes before reaching Kassel we saw all the first TI’s going down and the first bombs going down etcetera etcetera and er we followed in and by the time we got to Kassel the night fighters had estimated our course and er they put a line of er fighter flares above us so we were flying just like going down a high street with all the lights on and er we were lit up just like daylight and the night fighters were above us observing us, and the navigator, the bomb aimer took over for the bombing run and we dropped our bombs and er we turned put to port towards Hanover, [have a drink of tea, whispers], the night fighters of course had been following us we couldn’t see them because they were behind the fighter flares, and er about five minutes after leaving Kassel there was a terrific bang, series of bangs and the pilot said ‘we’ve had just been hit’ apparently canon shells had hit us, er he endeavoured to contact the rear gunner there was no reply, he tried the mid upper gunner there was no reply, so he asked the engineer to go back to see what whether they were okay, the engineer said ‘he couldn’t go back because he was watching the petrol tanks’, so he asked me and I went back I went back to the mid upper turret and hit the mid upper gunner on the thighs and er shook him but there was no reaction at all he had his head down and there was no reaction, so I dashed back then to the rear turret and the rear turret I banged on the rear turret doors I could see the the rear gunner in there er shot down so there was no reply from him so I tried to open the doors but they wouldn’t open so er just as I turned to return er the fighter came in again and attacked us, er I was running at the fuselage and I felt a terrific pain in my right thigh and by the time I reached the pilot I put my thumbs down to indicate there was no life with the gunners and I noticed then that the port wing and engines were all on fire, the pilot shouted ‘bail out, bail out’ so I dashed down the stairs to my position underneath the pilot er which was just behind the navigator, the navigator lifted up his chair and table and lifted up the escape hatch I handed him his parachute and I put my parachute on and as I put my parachute on I noticed I had his name on mine so I tapped him and indicated so we changed parachutes and I went out and er I was out first er I landed in a tree er and er hit a branch with my left thigh and I had a terrific thigh when I hit one of the main branches, er it was quite dark but I could see the branches against the night light and I put my right foot on one of the branches er released myself from the parachute because I was hung about twenty I suppose about twenty feet up in a tree released myself and then put my left leg on the branch to climb down and my left leg gave way and I collapsed and fell from the trees and knocked myself out, er the next thing I knew it was getting dawn I suppose be about seven thirty in the morning this was about nine twenty five at night when we were shot down it was about seven thirty in the morning it was just getting light and er I noticed that I was in this small wood er and er I tried to stand up and I couldn’t so and I was feeling very very thirsty I didn’t realise then that I had lost a lot of blood and that’s why I was thirsty, so I looked around and I could see that it was lighter down below than it was up above so I crawled to the edge of the wood and there was a field there and I noticed there was a farmer and two boys spreading manure etcetera etcetera on the ground, so I shouted to them they came over and I asked them for water er they stood me up and I collapsed again and went unconscious the next thing I remember I was on a horse and cart going across a field I momentarily came conscious and realised what I was doing what’s happening then I lost consciousness again, the next thing I woke up I was on a bed in a hospital with a doctor and nurse looking over me and er when they realised I had regained consciousness they said ‘you have er er broken your left leg and you are wounded in your right leg’ I said ‘where am I?’ they said ‘in Germany’ I said ‘I can’t stay here I’ve got to get back to England’, er I tried to get off the ch the bed then I realised I had no use in my legs so I laid back on the bad, er I was there overnight [takes a drink] and the next day a German medical orderly came and informed me in broken English er that he was escorting to Dulag Luft, they put me on a stretcher I’d been my leg had been strapped up by this time of course and they put me on a stretcher and took me to the railway station which I noticed the name was Lugde [spells it out], um they was only the medical orderly so they had to get an outsider to help carry me on the stretcher and the outsider when we got to the station he left me just left the medical orderly with me the train came in so I had to get off the stretcher I had the use of my right leg by this time and er the the er medical orderly got me into the train er we travelled a short way and we had to change trains [takes a drink] er he took me out and er where we were changing trains there was no platform so we had to get down onto the side of the railway er he took me um the stretcher out then helped me down then helped me across to the platform and then brought the stretcher down for me to lay on the stretcher, er he went to get some refreshment and while he went to get refreshment a big a to me a great big German er huge German with a walking stick came and stood in front of my er stretcher looked down and said ‘my house in Kassel has been bombed’ er I looked at him and er I thought seeing the walking stick etcetera etcetera discretion being the better part of valour I kept my mouth shut, at that time the medical orderly came back with the drinks and er the this civilian went off, er we got back on another train travelled another distance and we had to change trains again, er the same thing he there was no platform so he had to help me down and he took me into the canteen in this station where there was a lot of soldiers, er he went to get some soup for me and er when he came back with the soup a German soldier with a Schmeisser came over he wanted to shoot me so the medical orderly looked around and found a er another soldier of higher rank he’d found a Feldwebel which was a sergeant, the sergeant came over and immediately this German with a Schmeisser went, I felt very grateful to the medical orderly for what he had done so I gave him my name and address which wasn’t against the law anyway because we were allowed to give name address and rank etcetera, we got on to another train and er there oh just before we got onto the next train a a a another escort came up with three other airmen and one of the airmen was my bomb aimer, so er he said to me ‘both the gunners and Bob the pilot were dead’ er he had been picked up er near where the aircraft crashed taken to the scene and er there in the turrets the turrets had come out with the shock of the crash the gunners were still in the turrets the pilot was still in the pilot’s place and of course the fire had burned him, so er he identified the rear gunner by his dentures er half his head had been blown off by a canon shell, er the mid upper gunner had one had been shot in the stomach and of course the pilot er he must couldn’t have got out don’t know why but he went down with the aircraft and was killed in the crash and then burned after. Anyway the bomb aimer and the other aircrew were taken to one compartment and I was taken to another, er we arrived in Frankfurt am Main the next morning er at about ten o’clock and they took us onto the station and er they informed us that as I was wounded they wanted an ambulance so they phoned for an ambulance [pauses to take a drink], so after a while an ambulance came and the three other aircrew and myself were put in the ambulance and we were taken a short distance to Dulag Luft at Ober, Oberursel, the bomb aimer and the other two aircrew were taken off there and I was taken about another kilometre or so to a hospital called Hohemark [spells it out] it was a clinic for mentally disturbed people before the war it had been taken over by the Luftwaffe and the first the ground floor was used for German wounded er the first floor er for British wounded and the third floor and the second floor for the staff to sleep, er I was taken in by on the um taken into Hohemark onto the ground floor into a room and locked in er about five minutes later a German officer came along and he offered me a cigarette and put a form in front of me with a red cross on the top and on there it had my details requesting my details of name, rank etcetera home address, squadron and all the details of the squadron, er I filled in my name, rank and home address and handed it back to him and said ‘that’s all I’m afraid I could inform him about’ he said ‘I will tell you your history’ so he informed me the date I had volunteered in Cardiff, he informed me of every station I had been sent to in Britain er and the dates etcetera etcetera he informed me of all my crew and er then he left and he came back and he said he came back about five minutes later and oh he said ‘I left out Bobbington you were at Bobbington as well weren’t you?’ I said ‘well if you say so’ ‘yes’ he said ‘you were’ so er after about half an hour oh then they had him told me to undress and get in the bed there took all my outer clothing away with him, incidentally the medical orderlies who took me in were all British, er one was a warrant officer mid air front gunner who’d been shot down a year earlier he was a Liverpudlian, there were two Welsh paratroop medical orderlies they had been captured in North Africa and the rest of the staff there was a German corporal, er two German gefreiters and a German doctor, er after the interrogation the two medical welsh medical orderlies came and took me up to the first floor and there were various rooms and ere r various beds had been taken over there were other aircrew with broken legs and broken arms and of course there was a lot of burns there was one ward there with a lot of burnt aircrew, I was put in a bed and handed back my uniform and on my uniform I had two buttons one an RCAF button and one an RAF button the RAF button had a compass in that had been taken off I also had a compass in my front collar stud that had been taken out taken away so they had realised what was in there they had tested and found these compasses and took them away otherwise I had my my er cigarette case and all my own er belongings returned to me, um they put me in a bed there and er oh they had they asked me to stand up so I stood up and er ‘oh they said your legs not broken get in bed’ so of course the next day one of the medical orderlies came to dress my right thigh where I had a lot of proud flesh where this canon shell had hit me part of it and it gave me a wound when I lost a lot of blood and of course he started dressing the wound and looking down he said ‘your leg is broken’ he noticed that it was at an angle so I doctor came along and confirmed it, this doctor who’s name was Doctor Ittershagan [spells it out] er he was a specialist in broken bones er apparently he had taken up a new invention where instead of putting the leg in plaster they opened the wound opened the leg er stretched the leg to put the bones back in place opened the leg and put a metal pin inside the femur pushed it up through the thigh put the bone together and knocked the er pin into the bottom part of the femur and sewed the leg up so and we were able to get around on crutches there and er apparently they were seven six other aircrew there some with arms that had been broken and some with legs that had been broken and they had all had the same operation we were treated as guinea pigs because this was a special new idea, um so Doctor Ittershagan was there to oversee us. Er we spent a few months there and just before Christmas time a fighter pilot came in he had crashed er he was a PRU Photograph Reconnaissance Pilot and apparently he’d been flying over France er taking details of the weather and he hadn’t noticed that his oxygen had given out he’d broken his oxygen pipe and er the next thing he knew he was on in the aircraft the aircraft had flown into the landed pancaked itself into the ground he was slightly wounded, apparently when he got out when they took him to Dulag Luft they found he had two dummy legs he was the second legless pilot er so of course he was sent up to Hohemark and er to have his slight wounds er seen to and er this was at just Christmas time so we spent we had Christmas dinner at Hohemark with Colin Hodgkinson which was his name er he was featured in “This is Your Life“ some years after in the BBC. I was there until right throughout Christmas and various as we were oh Christmas Day we were able to get along on crutches so we went out on Christmas Day and met some of the German wounded so we started playing football on the grounds [laughs] in Hohemark, anyway various aircrew were coming in with wounds, burns etcetera etcetera some of them died there of burns etcetera, one pilot he was a member of the Dunlop Family and he got seriously burnt and he died on the operating table there. There was another Welshman came in er at the end of er March he had been on the Nuremburg raid and shot down and when he was when he bailed out the propellers caught his left arm and left leg and took his left arm off at the elbow and left leg off at the knee and he was on crutches, er various other, oh another one came in he had his legs both legs blown off and he landed in icy water and he had the sense to get his parachute shroud lines to tie around his thighs two girls German girls picked him up and took him to hospital and er he’d been sent to Hohemark before being repatriated of course because he was seriously wounded. We were there through the spring and summer part of the summer and er met quite a lot of er German officials etcetera and some of the German fighter pilots used to come in and have a chat with us about er flying etcetera and of course the interrogators used to come in and every afternoon about three o’clock we used to have coffee so the er interrogator had the habit of coming at about three o’clock when we were having Nescafe and of course he would come and have a cup of Nescafe as against the Acorn coffee that they were issued, and we used to chat with them and er we said to one we said to one of them one day ‘how is it you’ve got all this information about us?’ so he opened his briefcase and get a folder out and showed us details of an American Squadron he said ‘this is Amercian B17 Squadron’ he said ‘they are still in America they are due to fly over to England’ he said ‘we’ve got the details of every aircraft and every member of the crews’ and we said ‘well how do you get a lot of this?’ well he said ‘there is a lot of Irishmen working in America and a lot of Irishmen working in England and the information gets through’, so anyway so that satisfied out curiosity. Anyway one of the er guinea pigs, what was his name?, er oh dear Mike Sczweck [?] he was an ex Polish emigre to America he was a ball turret gunner [?] he’d had his arm broken and he’d had a metal pin put inside it and he was getting rather restless, so we used to be allowed out every afternoon from about two to three o’clock before coffee to walk round the grounds etcetera for a bit of exercise, er this was about the 4th June and the er he informed us that he was going to try and escape so er we er when we got back in we got to our window and of course they had long u um venetian blinds there and the windows were open and the long chords if you put them out of the window they’d reach to about six feet above the ground below so er there were two Canadians and myself er we were in a room and we helped lower him down and this was about half past three in the afternoon, very hot afternoon about four o’clock we had a thunderstorm er we covered as Mike had a habit of laying on his bed they were double bunks he was on the top bunk he had a habit of laying on the bed we made up his bed to look like he was laying on it, there was seven of us “The Seven Pin Boys” guinea pigs in this room so that night er we all went to bed and the German medical orderly came in Adolf Dufour he was ex ex er World War One soldier he came in so and he noticed we were all in bed so he closed the door and we all went to sleep the next morning we got up and had our breakfast and of course they put out the all the meal so er a few of us surreptiously took part of the roll etcetera and marmalade ate it and drank the coffee etcetera then about eleven o’clock in the morning the English warrant officer, Liverpudlian came up and he said ‘where is Sczweck?’ so we said ‘well on his bed I suppose’ he said ‘he is not on his bed’ and he went straight away and reported him as being escaped.
AS: So he’s just been found missing?
HW: Yes and he this Liverpudlian as I say he reported straight away they got in touch with Dulag Luft which was a kilometre away and er they came up with dogs etcetera but of course this was the day before he got away and there had been a thunderstorm in any case so er they said ‘right’ they picked the three of us and said ‘pack your bags’ and they took us down to the cooler at Dulag Luft they walked us down came down to the cooler and we spent a couple of days there, and then two days later they came and told us they wanted our braces and boots er now there was one of the ambulance drivers German ambulance drivers a German American he again had been er er living in America went to Germany at the beginning of the war and they kept him there so he could speak perfect English with an American accent so we said to him ‘why have you taken our braces and boots?’ he said ‘there’s been a landing on the French coast’ he said ‘we don’t want you to try and escape again’ anyway two days later they handed us our braces and boots and sent us to a hospital just outside Homberg and all the other pin boys were there and we all had our pins extracted er and we sent back to Hohemark er on on walking sticks etcetera for a few days until the wounds had healed and they took the stitches out, and then oh by the way incidentally when we were there at Hohemark there used to be a warrant officer an English warrant officer he was down at Dulag Luft and I don’t know what he was doing but er he used to come up periodically he was dressed in full RAF warrant officer uniform, Slowey his name was warrant officer Slowey he had been shot down about two years earlier and no doubt he was collaborating with the Germans so of course whenever he was around we kept our mouths shut he of course he had came up for information, there was also a girl who used to come up from Dulag Luft, her mother was Scottish and her father was German and er at the beginning of the war she went back to Germany and stayed over there and she used to be sent up to talk to us at times to no doubt try and get some information from us but of course they had all these sort of things like going on and tricks to try and get some information from us, anyway I don’t know what happened to Slowey ‘cos as I say we were sent back to Hohemark for a few days then I was posted er er to sent to Obermarshfelt[?] a clearing hospital near Meiningen in the centre of Germany, er it was a mixture of various prisoners there was English soldiers there etcetera er so I was there until er we could walk properly and then in July middle of July we were informed we were being sent to prison camp, er they put us on a train and er they were seven of us eight of us altogether and two guards the two guards only had little hand pistols to guard us with so er on the journey in the morning there was an air raid went and er we heard the aircraft going over and when the all clear went the train started again and we got as far as Erfurt and actually Erfurt had been bombed so we had to change trains at Erfurt, so we got on the platform there was crowds on the platform of people who had been bombed out and there was one particular person with a Swastika ensign on his arm and he noticed us and straight away he started shouting ‘terror fliers’ in German ‘terror-flieger’ informing the crowd that we were terror fliers we should be hung er at that moment a German troop train came in and stopped momentarily on the platform and the guard said to the Germans ’asked where they were going if they were going via Leipzig’ they said ‘yes’ so he got us all on the troop train with the German soldiers and we went off otherwise we would have been hung [laughs]. We got as far as Leipzig where we changed trains again and er then we er the next train was overnight to Dresden, we reached Dresden the next morning and they put us in the basement of the station where we had a sleep etcetera and er of course they’d given us a few rations, a box of Red Cross box of rations so we had our rations and er then we were transferred in the afternoon on a train again and went on to Upper Silesia Bankau which was Luft 7 we reached there about six o’clock the next morning and we marched from Bankau er from the town of Bankau to the prison camp er we were admitted into the prison camp and it was a new one just been built and there was only about forty prisoners there but a lot of huts, the huts were only eight feet high, ten feet long and eight feet wide, and they put six of us in there, there was no beds we had to sleep on the floor no tables no chairs or anything we just had to oh and they gave us a bowl and a spoon and a cup, I’ve still got the cup I got at home with my I still got my German prisoner of war mug, so we were there and there was another compound next to it which was being built with substantially bigger huts the Russians were building that, so in the summer we had just had these huts to live in and the only water we had was a pump in the centre of the field centre of the parade ground er like a village pump where we got our water and where we could only get underneath there and have a bathe. We were there until mid September end of September and then we were transferred to the next compound where we had better accommodation we had double bunks double tier, two tier bunks etcetera etcetera and about sixteen of us to a room um we settled down there and of course they had water laid on there and once a week we were allowed a shower we were taken in batches rooms each room went into the shower, under the shower a German soldier would turn the water on to get us wet let us have a shower a wash turn the water on again to take the soap off and about ten minutes that was our shower that was our cleaning. We were there until January 19th er 1945 when the Russians started advancing so they decided we had to move er we were informed there was no transport we would have to walk, so early in the morning of 19th January they took us out we had no Red Cross parcels none had arrived, er so we went out with no food and we walked thirty kilometres that day to a place called Vintersfelt [?] where they put us up in various er er um cow sheds etcetera etcetera er and some sat out in the open, er we did that forced march then from the 22nd from 19th January to about mid February forced march each day er the camp commandant he informed the Germans and the doctor the English doctor prisoner of war we had informed the Germans we were exhausted we couldn’t go any further so the Germans after we’d marched forced marched through storms etcetera in the night minus forty degrees er with sleet and snow etcetera for about fourteen days um they they marched us to a station where they put us in cattle trucks forty to a truck locked us in and er we were there in this train for two days weren’t allowed out er two days later we arrived at a place called Luckenwalde er which is about twenty kilometres south of Berlin it was a very big camp all nationalities in there so er we were marched into Luckenwalde camp there again there were no beds we had to sleep on the floor er we were issued with the minimum amount of food er I lost about two stone actually in that time er and er we were there until about the 22nd 23rd April er when we woke up one morning to be informed the Russians were outside we looked out and there were Russian tanks out there and they they ploughed down the outer wire and came in they informed us that we could go east if we wished but we couldn’t go west we could go out and forage for food if we wished so various parties went out foraging for food into the town er in the meantime the Russians and the Americans had met at on the Elba. The Americans came over and the Russians stopped them at the edge of the camp and the Americans wanted to take us away and the Russians wouldn’t allow us they were keeping us hostage until they got all the Russian prisoners that had joined the German forces back into Russia to shoot them. So er the Americans informed us that down the road a few kilometres away they would station some trucks and if we could make our way down there we would get away, so after the next day I walked out with one or two others and walked down to this copse there was an American truck there we got in a soon as it was filled up the American truck took us across the Elba that was on 8th May which was er VE Day, so we crossed the Elba into er into a German town and we were put in er a barrack part of an aircraft factory that the Americans had taken over and of course there they fed us er we stayed there for about a day then they trucked us from Luckenwalde sorry from the camp er to um er where was it Mankenberg [?] no not Mankenberg and we finished up at Hanover, er we stayed overnight at Hanover and the next day they put us on Dakota aircraft and flew us to er Belgium Brussels and we arrived in Brussels in the early evening and there they deloused us kitted us out in army uniforms and told us gave us a few francs and told us we could go in town and have a beer [laughs] which we did we came back to be informed we were back on a train er which was a prisoner of war train with all barbed wire and bars on and we were shipped to er er from Brussels to Amien er there we stayed overnight and the next morning there were aircraft landed at Amien and they flew us they flew us to England where I landed just south of Guildford the next day, again we were deloused er kitted out in British uniform and er sent up to Cosford where we were medically examined and if we were fit given a pass and sent home. I arrived home about the 10th or 11th of May er and that was the story of my life up at that up until that time.
AS: Fascinating.
Other: [Laugh] [?] trying to transcribe all that.
HW: ‘Cos there again I as I’d been a prisoner of war I was due for discharge but they wouldn’t discharge me until I had my tonsils out so I had to wait a year before going into a hospital an RAF hospital immediately they came out they discharged me and I went back to my civilian job in paper making and I have been in paper making ever since.
AS: Why did they want to take your tonsils out?
HW: Actually I got tonsillitis in October and I’d been reported sick and of course the day we were to take off I didn’t bother I felt better so I didn’t report sick so I told Bob the pilot ‘I wasn’t reporting sick’ and he said ‘right we are on tonight’ and that was the fateful day [laughs].
AS: Can you tell me about what happened with the German medical officer who stopped you from being shot?
HW: Yes, I he was a medical orderly Gunter Aarff [?] his name was he was about nineteen years of age about two years younger than myself and he could speak fairly good English so of course having met him in Dusseldorf at the Control Commission and we went there and we gave I gave my report he gave his report.
AS: Can you tell me can you just tell me again because you mentioned it when this thing wasn’t on how you were contacted about?
HW: About er er he wrote me and said he introduced himself that I was the person he had escorted to Dulag Luft.
AS: Because you’d given him your home address?
HW: Yes his father had been killed etcetera and he wanted to become a dentist. So of course I arranged it I wrote to the Control Commission they gave me permission to go over I met him we went there together he gave his story I gave mine and er of course he went into university and he became a dentist and of course from then on we kept in contact each year those candlesticks there he sent they were Christmas boxes each year we used to exchange Christmas boxes etcetera etcetera.
Other: Have you got a photograph don’t know?
HW: Yes I’ve got one, as I say we kept in contact ever since we went over there he’s been over here we went one time and he took us down the Rhine boat trip all day trip back up to Cologne etcetera so we did a cruise on the Rhine etcetera.
AS: So he really saved your life and ?
HW: Oh yes he saved, yes that’s why I gave him my name and address because if he hadn’t got this sergeant er the German he was drunk of course he would have shot me, so of course we kept in contact as I say until two years ago er we sent him a Christmas card and we had no reply we did again last year we still had no reply er we had heard in the meantime that he had cancer but er no doubt this has overcome him and he has passed on.
AS: So you really went to the Control Commission to act as a character witness a character reference so he could get into university?
HW: Yes, they said they couldn’t er order the German authorities to give him a place but they could recommend it of course he was recommended and he went into university yes.
AS: Can you tell me after all this how you managed to settle back into civilian life?
HW: Yes, I went back into my er into the paper mill of course they had taken on other staff but they were forced to take us back er and of course they offered us such low salaries that a lot of them just couldn’t afford to go back and they found another job, I was lucky that I had twelve months leave paid leave with warrant officers pay so I was getting £6 a week as a warrant officer and £3 a week civilian pay so I was able to manage to but they gave me didn’t give me my same job back they gave me another job on costing and while I was there I took up paper making studying paper making at City and Guilds etcetera and passed the City and Guilds on papermaking and we had an associate mill at Treforrest where they coated the paper put on this coating for photographic paper, chocolate wrappings etcetera, er waxing, er they used to put the purple coating on the paper for Cadbury’s wrappers etcetera etcetera, er wax craft etcetera er waxed brown paper that is for various jobs in the metal industry um papers for the books for printing books etcetera coated paper and er that was 1946 I went back to the paper mill, 1949 I understood there was a job going in the order department in Trefforest so I applied and of course I got it so then I was in charge of the paper coating on the on all the coating machines, er I was there for about two years inside the office then they decided they’d like me to go out selling paper so I went out travelling they provided me with a car and I started travelling selling paper. In 1953 er there was an upheaval in the with the directors of the mill and the managing director resigned and they decided to take me back in to do the job until they could find another managing director er having experienced outside work I didn’t want to stay inside so I said well I would do it for a year they said right they would find somebody in a year, they found somebody but they still kept me in. At that time my wife’s parents who had been evacuated to Cardiff during the war had moved back to London er and my father in law had contracted er er cancer so we came up for a holiday and er I had a customer in London who had offered me a job if ever I wanted to come up to London so we came up for a holiday and er I went to see him they said yes they would like I could start straight away so I left my wife up here we looked round found a house left my wife here and er I went back put my notice in worked a month and came up to London to live and I started in the paper trade again selling paper to printers and that I did right until I retired in 1986.
AS: Was it difficult when you came out of the RAF fitting back into civilian life?
HW: Yes yes having had the freedom of the RAF I found it very very difficult being tied down to a desk yes.
AS: What do you mean by freedom you were a prisoner of war for several years?
HW: Sorry
AS: You were a prisoner of war for several years that wasn’t
HW: For eighteen months yes.
AS: Eighteen months?
HW: Yes yes and of course er there was the life fighting for food because the Germans gave us the minimum amount of food so we wouldn’t have the energy to try to escape, er we used to play football or cricket etcetera er in the centre of the camp and each day do a march around the perimeter we would all be exercising walking round for miles and miles round the perimeter between the escape wire and the huts to keep keep fairly fit which we were glad of because of the forced march. In September 43 of course there was Arnhem and of course the glider pilots although they were in the Army the Germans treated them as Luftwaffe so they came into our camp and we got really depressed we felt that with the Russian advance we would be home by Christmas and of course that made us our morale dropped a great deal of course we had the paratroopers not the glider pilots there with us joined they the camp. By the time we came out of the camp in January 45 there were fifteen hundred of us when I went there there was about twenty five so you see the number of prisoners of war that was NCO prisoners of war taken in those few months and er only about twenty about ten percent of people flying over Germany that were shot down were made prisoners the rest were killed so you can just imagine the number of people fifty five thousand five hundred and seventy three were killed during the war.
AS: Afterwards did you have you managed to keep in touch with any of your comrades?
HW: Yes I kept in contact with all my crew with the remainder of my crew and of course the parents of the er er members that were killed, there again the parents of my pilot died after a while and er the mid upper gunner then kept writing to me but when in 1949 I told them that I was going to Germany to speak on the part of the medical orderly I think I might have upset them ‘cos they stopped writing, anyway the rear gunners mother she came over here and she went to visit his grave etcetera etcetera we kept in contact with them we went all over we visited them I visited my navigator and my bomb aimer we’ve been over in Canada a few times there so we er kept in contact ever since. Now about five years ago er my bomb aimer died and about four years ago my navigator died we are still in contact with the daughter no the yes the son no grandson of the rear gunner and his family, the navigator’s wife we’ve been in contact with them until last Christmas we sent the usual letter we had no reply er so therefore I am the only survivor the last survivor of the crew.
AS: Well Harry thank you very much indeed.
HW: That’s all right.
AS: It’s been a fascinating tale.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Winter
Creator
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Andrew Sadler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWinterH150708, PWinterH1508
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Winter grew up in Cardiff and worked in a paper mill from the age of 14. He served in the Home Guard before he volunteered for the Air Force. After training as a wireless operator at RAF Yatesbury he flew operations over Germany, France, and Italy with 431 and 427 Squadrons. His Halifax, LK633 (ZL-N) was shot down over Hameln returning from Kassel on the night 22/23 Oct 1943. Four of his crew were killed and he sustained injuries to both legs. He escaped summary execution through the intervention of a German Army medical orderly. After the War, Harry helped the medical orderly with his application to train as a dentist.
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Luckenwalde
Germany--Oberursel
Wales--Cardiff
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943-10-22
1944
1945-01-19
Format
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01:19:33 audio recording
1659 HCU
23 OTU
427 Squadron
431 Squadron
6 Group
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Kassel (22/23 October 1943)
civil defence
Dulag Luft
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Initial Training Wing
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Leeming
RAF Pershore
RAF Tholthorpe
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Yatesbury
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
target indicator
the long march
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/364/5756/PGreenCF1609.2.jpg
dc4dec751430f156e43302ca638dda54
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/364/5756/AGreenCF160329.1.mp3
e44cabbdd1b57ce2a07c3f72cabd3807
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Green, Charles Frederick
Charles Green
C F Green
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, CF
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Charles Frederick Green DFC (b. 1921, 178730 Royal Air Force). As a mid-upper gunner, he completed 34 operations with 429 Squadron at RAF Leeming and 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright from International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Flying Officer Charles Green at 3.15pm on Tuesday the 29th of March 2016 at his home in Poulton, Lancashire. Start off with, Flying Officer Green, can you tell me where you were born and what your date of birth is please?
CG: My date of birth is 28 10 ‘21. I was born in Peckham, South East London.
BW: How many people were in your family? Did you have brothers and sisters?
CG: I’ve got two brothers. I did have a sister who passed away soon after she was born I’m afraid.
BW: And growing up, what sort of family life did you have?
CG: Oh great. Alright. Brilliant. Yes.
BW: I mean you were in sort of South East London actually in -
CG: Well I -
BW: The urban area weren’t you?
CG: That’s right but I was born in 1921 but in 1930 my parents wanted to move out of London which we did eventually and in 1930 we went to Dagenham in Essex.
BW: Right.
CG: Which was very countrified at that time. No buses, no trains or anything like that.
BW: And no large factories there like there are now.
CG: Sorry?
BW: No large factories there like there are now.
CG: No not now no. It’s different again now.
BW: And -
CG: Apparently -
BW: And, so what was your schooling like?
CG: What was what?
BW: Your schooling like. What sort of subjects did you do at school?
CG: Hist, oh dear, just the usual. Arithmetic, history, geography, things like that but we didn’t touch trigonometry and maths and all that until 1935. Halfway through 1935 [background noise] we went on to a bit of trigonometry and maths and all that but by that time it was a bit too late for me to pick it up.
BW: And so what, what, what year did you finish school? How old were you when you finished your schooling?
CG: I was fourteen. 1935. Christmas 1935 I left. Fourteen.
BW: And what happened after that? Where did you, where did go after that?
CG: After that I, my, my father got me in to the printing industry, Brown Knight and Truscott’s in London and I started to serve a seven-year apprenticeship in the machine room but there again the war came along and halfway through and put a stop to it. In which, first off I went on to the, when the war started I went on the ARP and then ran messages for the police. We all did. All half a dozen of us, of a gang of us and as I say we continued with the ARP at weekends and at night and then when 1941 came I was, I was nineteen then so I volunteered for the RAF which I went to the late, during '41 I went to the technical college to try and improve me grammar, education if you like and eventually I got called up. I got my RAF papers January 1942 and reported to the RAF at Lords Cricket Ground on the 26th of January 1942 and that was it. I was in the RAF.
BW: So just going back to the early part of the war because you’d gone in to the civilian -
CG: ARP.
BW: [unclear] forces as an ARP.
CG: Yeah the first off -
BW: And -
CG: Sorry?
BW: That’s alright and you must have, did you see much of the Blitz at that time because Dagenham isn’t that far from London?
CG: Oh yes. Going up to work it took us, it took my father and meself ages to get, a couple of hours to get to work because of the previous night’s bombing, the traffic was all haywire. Trains were, it was a case of getting on the underground so many stations, getting off, getting on a bus, two more, a couple of miles, to getting off again, getting back on the train into London and then walking from there to your firm where you worked with all the firefighters doing their work trying to clear up and knocking down buildings because, which was the, well you can imagine, pandemonium really. You were supposed to start work at eight, eight o’clock in the morning but we were getting there about half past ten like everybody else. Everybody else was the in the same boot you know it wasn’t just us.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Everybody [unclear]. And the same thing at night when you used to knock off at six and you didn’t get home 'till about eight or nine o’clock. Just a similar thing in reverse.
BW: And so you were working as an apprentice at this time.
CG: [unclear].
BW: But you doing your ARP in the evening and weekends.
CG: Yeah.
BW: So -
CG: Well I was doing it at night.
BW: Yeah.
CG: If you were on and then at weekends yeah but previous to that we used to run, we started running messages for the police ‘cause they didn’t have a, didn’t have a ruddy big police force at that time so that they asked for youths who weren’t in the forces who had a bike would they run messages for the police so we volunteered and then when they got the reserves, the police reserves, they didn’t want us obviously so we took up this air raid post. Yeah.
BW: Did you get to see any of the messages or know what the messages were about that you were running for the police?
CG: Oh no. I don’t know. No, we got, I took, I only took one or two if I remember.
BW: Right.
CG: Yeah no just had to go to someone else, knock on the door to give them a message. Nothing, nothing, well there was one for me, personal. Apparently somebody had been killed in London and we had to notify the parents. The police did but because they didn’t have anybody available they sent me but when I got there, weren’t anybody in. They were out. So eventually the police came looking for me to take me, yeah. That’s right that [laughs]. Oh dear.
BW: And how did it feel as an ARP seeing the bombers come over during a raid?
CG: Well it was at night. You didn’t see them actually. You heard them but yeah oh yeah and sometimes the odd one dropped a bomb too, accidentally or whatever and when they went back they had to perhaps get rid of one which was like we used to do.
BW: Yeah. Yeah.
CG: But yeah. Aye.
BW: And what drew you to the RAF? You mentioned that you volunteered and got your call-up papers in January ‘42 so you’d had a good long spell really.
CG: Oh twelve months.
BW: ’41. Twelve months as an ARP.
CG: Yeah. Twelve months. I volunteered in January ‘41 and they said it’ll be quite a while so that’s when I went, I went on to this technical college to try and improve my how’s your father grammar.
BW: Yeah.
CG: But oh education I suppose you might say. It’s a long time ago in it?
BW: What drew you to the RAF though as opposed to say to the army and navy?
CG: Sorry?
BW: What drew you to the RAF as opposed to the army or navy?
CG: Well I didn’t, I didn’t fancy the navy or the army to be honest. My prescription, prescription my conscription was coming up. I’d have to go in whatever happened but I wanted to choose what I wanted to go in if I could and I was leaning towards the RAF. Yes.
BW: And did you want to be air crew from the outset or did you prefer to go -
CG: Well that was -
BW: As ground crew?
CG: When in front of the selection board they said, ‘You’re wanting to be wireless operator / air gunner?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ They said, ‘Well what’s wrong with, why don’t you want to be a pilot?’ So I was frank, I said, ‘Well, I don’t think I’ve got the education qualities.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We could teach you. You could go to classes.’ So I said, ‘That’s alright,’ so I went. That’s when the twelve months previous I went to try and improve but, and when I first went in the RAF they sent me down to Brighton for air crew, air crew but it was all, I couldn’t do it. Trigonometry, maths. I couldn’t do that then. No. No. I knew I couldn’t but I tried, but there you are.
BW: And so you went straight -
CG: So -
BW: In as wireless op / air gunner.
CG: Yeah. Yes, I went wireless operator / air gunner and I finished up as an air gunner. Yeah. There was a wireless course but it's so complicated it would take me ages to explain that.
BW: And so once you’d joined up and had your basic training and then went on to the air gunnery course -
CG: Yeah.
BW: You started flying Ansons. Is that right?
CG: Yes. That was the first thing. I went through the ordinary course, you know the normal, normal gunnery taking it, taking guns to bits and putting them together and target practice and all that business and then, and then we went to air to air firing and we tried it on, we flew Ansons. That’s it.
BW: And were you assessed at these stages as to your accuracy of -?
CG: At the end of it yes. Yeah. Firing at a moving drogue. It was a ruddy job, we didn’t get very good results. Nobody did. And then from there oh dear Ansons yeah. From there -
BW: You said you went -
CG: That was -
BW: On to Whitleys.
CG: That was, where was it now? Ansons. No it wasn’t. I went to, oh I went oh that was ITW [?]. Went to Dalcross. Dalcross, oh I can’t see it. Oh Dalcross was the gunnery school. We finished up there. Oh dear.
BW: So looking at your logbook here it says 2 Air Gunnery School.
CG: Yeah but -
BW: Ansons.
CG: That’s right. Ansons. Yeah. And then we went to Honeybourne. Whitleys.
BW: Okay.
CG: It should be.
BW: Yeah. 24 OTU flying Whitleys.
CG: Whitleys. That’s right. Then from there we went to Croft. Halifaxes to start training. Start operations. Is that right? Should be.
BW: That’s right. Now this says 1664 Conversion Unit.
CG: Conversion Unit. Yeah that’s it. That was from the Whitley to the Halifax. Four, the Halifax, the four engine, similar to the -
BW: Yeah.
CG: Similar to the Lanc.
BW: How did you find that? What was that like when you started flying in those?
CG: Oh well the only thing it was a different kind of turret. You see on the Halifax, when you were on the Halifax it was electrically operated. In fact when you got in the turret you had a little joystick to move, move it around, with a button on top to press to fire your guns but on a Lancaster it was oil controlled and you had kind of a motorbike effect so when you held it you held it like a motorbike and if you depressed, depressed your hands that would move the turret and your fingers were in a guard and if you, the triggers were in the guard and if you squeezed the triggers it fired the guns.
BW: And so this is completely different from normal firing where people would look -
CG: Oh yeah.
BW: Through the fore sight and the rear sight.
CG: Oh yeah.
BW: And have the butt of the rifle in the shoulder. This is -
CG: Oh yeah, no, nothing yeah.
BW: Sort of using the guns to the side. Yeah.
CG: They were machine guns, yeah and then when I went — when I went on the Lancaster at the end I went underneath a point five and that was the nearest I can tell you about that is that that’s what the Yanks use in their Fortresses as near enough and you only had the one but they used to fire seven hundred and fifty a minute and you just sat, sat down there just in case somebody, you know, enemy came underneath ‘cause that’s what they were doing. The Messerschmitts, the Germans had the Messerschmitt 109, I think it was the 109 and they had an upper upward pointing gun and they used to fly under the bombers, point the gun and just fire.
BW: These would be the Messerschmitt 110s would they?
CG: 109.
BW: Well the 109 was a single engine fighter wasn’t it?
CG: That’s right yeah.
BW: But the, the 110 was a twin engine fighter.
CG: Yes. Yeah.
BW: With the cockpit and the cannon in the rear.
CG: Twin booms I think. Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
CG: But then they were a long time, long time doing that, bringing that underneath gun. They should have had it before. Anyway they brought that out and that’s how after I’d finished my first tour of ops when they recalled me again to my second one and that was to man the underneath gun. And that was at Mepal. 75 Squadron.
BW: Just coming back to your time on 429 Squadron you’ve gone through -
CG: 429 Canadian.
BW: That’s right. You’d gone through your conversion unit.
CG: That’s right.
BW: And you’ve now been posted to Leeming.
CG: That’s right again.
BW: 429 Squadron. It’s unusual perhaps that RAF crews serve with a Canadian unit as mixed. You would expect perhaps Canadian -
CG: Yeah.
BW: Crews complete. Were you a mixed crew?
CG: Yeah. Oh yes. The, in fact the navigator was a, was a Russian. His name, they called him Corkie. His parents had escaped from Russia at the revolution, Russian revolution. Bannoff his name was.
BW: Bannoff.
CG: Yeah.
BW: B A N O V?
CG: Bannoff I think it was. Bannoff. Yes that’s right. He was.
BW: And on this first crew do you remember who your pilot was?
CG: Oh yeah. Mitchell. He was a great bloke.
BW: And what, were they all NCOs? Was he an NCO as well?
CG: At the beginning yes but he was the first one to get commissioned.
BW: And do you recall his first name?
CG: I can. I ought to. We always called him Mitch. Leonard. Leonard. I think I’m right there. Leonard. Yeah. Don’t suppose it matters a lot though really but -
BW: And so with a Halifax you had a crew of five.
CG: No. No. Seven.
BW: Seven.
CG: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BW: Okay.
CG: Very good.
BW: Do you recall the others? The wireless operator.
CG: Yes. Yes just give me a minute then.
BW: That’s okay.
CG: The engineer was Bill Lawrence [pause]. The navigator was Corkie Bannoff [pause]. The wireless operator was Jamie Jameson.
BW: Jamie Jameson.
CG: Yeah. Used to call him Jamie. James, yeah, that’s it. Jameson. Yeah. Who else is there? Bannoff. How many have you got there?
BW: Including yourself that’s five. So there’s two gunners.
CG: Two more.
BW: There’s a rear gunner.
CG: Oh rear gunner.
BW: And mid up.
CG: Hunter. Eugene. Gene Hunter. Oh and the bomb aimer. The bomb aimer was, oh I can’t remember him now. Bomb aimer. Thompson. Tommy Thompson [pause]
BW: So he was the bomb aimer.
CG: That’s it. Yeah. You should have seven now.
BW: And the rear gunner was Gene Hunter.
CG: Gene Hunter yeah.
BW: Which left you as the mid upper.
CG: Seven.
BW: And that and you yourself would be -
CG: I was the mid upper.
BW: Yeah.
CG: At 429. It was 75 when I went the other one and I can’t tell you the crews on that one because they were all different crews every time. More or less.
BW: And how did you crew up with your Halifax guys? How did you meet and form as a crew?
CG: Oh yes it was after the, after the gunnery course. Then we went to this station, I think, it wasn’t Honeybourne. It was another station. We were all mixed. Pilots, navigators and everything and then this chap came around to me and, ‘We need a mid-upper. How about it?’ I said, ‘Yes. Okay.’ And that was it and I was, I was a member of Mitch’s crew. And I stayed. Luckily enough we stayed together all the time until we finished the tour.
BW: Did you socialise together at all?
CG: Sorry?
BW: Did you socialise together at all as a crew?
CG: Sorry again.
BW: Did you socialise together at all as a crew? Did you go out for drinks and dances -
CG: On occasions. On occasion -
BW: And things with each other?
CG: But to be, they had the money. We had, I forget whether it was thirty, no it was thirty bob when I was training. No don’t quote that I’m not sure. We didn’t get the money they got. I mean Bill Lawrence, we used to come down, we were upstairs in a room. When we came down they used to sit round here, all the other five, Canadians. They were alright. They were great. All around. A bundle of notes, back, you know, betting.
BW: Just used to throw them down on the floor to bet on the game.
CG: Oh Jeez and we had thirty bob. What could you do?
BW: Yeah.
CG: I mean they went out obviously and say, ‘Come on.’ ‘No. No.’ I couldn’t have, couldn’t sponge on people all the time like that.
BW: So who, who were the Canadians in your crew? You mentioned the Russian. Corkie. And you yourself were the Brit.
CG: Yeah.
BW: So the other five then of the seven must have all been Canadians.
CG: Except for Bill Lawrence the navigator, er engineer. He was English. Newcastle lad.
BW: So two Brits, four Canadians.
CG: Five Canadians.
BW: Five Canadians.
CG: Two Brits, five Canadians. Is that right? Should be. Yeah.
BW: And what were facilities like on the base for you?
CG: Oh alright. Yeah. Well it was a Canadian squadron. I mean we were sponsored by CPR, Canadian Pacific Railways. And we were told that if we went over there we would get free rides, free train rides. No trouble. And the other squadron 427, there were two squadrons on the station 427, they were sponsored by MGM. Metro Goldwyn Mayer and they got free, free films anywhere they were.
BW: Did you give your aircraft a name?
CG: U-Uncle, first one.
BW: U-Uncle.
CG: And then we had to have another one because we came on leave and while we were away another crew took it and it went in. It went down in the channel. So we lost that one. We got Q for Queenie I think. It should tell you in me book. Me logbook. What the name of the, what the name of the aircraft was.
BW: I’ll just have a look here. You started, it says you started flying in Z-Zulu. By -
CG: Was that training?
BW: The look of it. Those would be your first missions in December.
CG: Well it could have been yeah. Z- Zebra was it? Yeah. Q-Queenie mainly I thought but of course I might be a bit, I might be a bit rusty now.
BW: That’s alright. And you were in B flight?
CG: Yeah. Well, I can’t tell you. I wouldn’t say that. I don’t know without looking at that. Now when I was at Mepal 75 I was on one, one plane only. Every time it flew I flew. L for London that one. Funny wasn’t it, but when that flew I flew and left and when I left the station, I was finished it was still there so-
BW: Right.
CG: It was alright yeah.
BW: So while you were based at Leeming with 429 did your crew share the same barracks?
CG: Oh yes we had a house like this.
BW: Right.
CG: Yeah.
BW: Sort of a detached house in the, was it off base or was it on base?
CG: On base yeah.
BW: Right. It was a block. A block. Yeah it was. Not a, not a long block, it was a short block of houses if I remember. They called them married quarters but they weren’t then of course and Bill Lawrence and me we shared the upstairs bedroom, two beds. The other room which had three beds was the navigator, wireless operator and bomb aimer. No the bomb aimer was downstairs with Mitch. The pilot.
[pause]
BW: So you’re starting to fly operations now and you mentioned earlier that your first one was mine laying.
CG: That’s right.
BW: And it says Christmas Eve 1943.
CG: That’s right.
BW: That was your trip out.
CG: Yeah.
BW: To -
CG: Kiel Canal.
BW: Kiel Canal.
CG: Yeah and we were told later that the Admiral Scheer had been sunk so whether that was a bit of propaganda I don’t know. You had to take everything with a pinch of salt if you could.
BW: And before -
CG: We were followed back one day early on one of the trips if you want to know it might be there, I don’t know, by a Focke Wulf 190.
BW: Right. It’s not, just looking at this it’s not listed.
CG: That’s with 429 Squadron.
BW: Yeah. And what happened? How –
CG: He picked us up after we left the target and both Gene and me said, ‘Mitch a ruddy fighter behind us.’ ‘What is it?' he said, he asked. ‘190.’ ‘Well how far?’ ‘Oh its way back. Out of range. No good firing.’ So he said, ‘Well keep an eye on it all the time.’ Oh I can ruddy, it’s amazing how you can put out some of these and I don’t know whether I’ve had the cup of tea or not. ‘Keep an eye on it,’ he says, ‘but don’t forget the other sides of the plane because he might be a decoy,’. ‘Cause they used to do that you see or they’d put one over there on the port side and the other one would come in on the starboard. Something like that. Which we did. Kept an eye on him. All the time. A Focke Wulf 190 and you could always tell a Focke Wolf, reckon it was just like an ordinary, like a carrot, you see an ordinary carrot how it take, yeah that was it and he followed us right back to the Channel 'till we got to the French coast to come home and he banked off and went. Now why, never know. Never know that. Whether it was his first trip or whether he was trying to waste time I don’t know. But we never, 'cause we couldn’t find out but he followed us all the way back to the coast. French coast, 'till we crossed over to the Channel.
BW: But he picked you out as an individual bomber.
CG: Yeah. I don’t know.
BW: And you weren’t in a stream at that point. Were you not?
CG: What us?
BW: Yeah.
CG: Oh no we, when you got over there you just went in. You didn’t, you just followed, followed your target, your course and went in. Yeah. By the time you got in there was flak and fighters you just, searchlights, so you just had to do what you could. Yeah.
BW: And thinking about the mine laying operation.
CG: Yeah.
BW: I believe they were carried out at pretty low level, about three hundred feet at night. Is that right?
CG: Oh I can’t remember now, that. No. I can’t remember that one. I remember is our first trip you said? Yeah that’s right. We were all on edge looking out for ruddy fighters. Yeah we got, no I can’t. I remember we got over the canal, Kiel Canal wasn’t it? That’s it. And Mitch said, ‘Let it go,’ and the bloody plane went up because it does with the weight and he said, ‘Right. Let’s get off back.’ And that was it, I can’t remember much more about that.
BW: And when you prepared yourselves for a typical mission did you have any mascots or lucky charms or rituals or anything like that you went through?
CG: Oh yes I did. Well I could have brought it. I’ve got it upstairs. I should have brought it. Well it’s in there. I can show you. I’ve got a metal thing like a -
BW: Like a little plaque.
CG: For shaving -
BW: Oh I see.
CG: What they did in the First World War. Now my grandmother, my father’s mother gave it to him at the beginning of 1914 war and said to him, ‘Carry this in your pocket throughout the war,’. ‘Cause I wasn’t born then obviously which he did and on the night before I went into the RAF, we were playing monopoly and that. When we finished my mum and dad said, ‘Now take this son' and he explained what it was and I said, ‘Well what is it?’ He said he carried that. So my mother and father were asking me to carry it which I put in my pocket and I carried that throughout the war and I’ve still got it now.
BW: And that was in, that was in your left breast pocket was it?
CG: That’s it.
BW: On your battledress -
CG: Yeah.
BW: Jacket.
CG: Any my mum, my mother said take one of those Mon, what, Monopoly? What was I saying, no, what was that race game you used to run. Yeah. Was it Monopoly? No it wasn’t a race game was it? I had a little silver shoe.
BW: Yes. That, that was the one. They used it. There was a car, there was an iron and a little shoe, the boot.
CG: That’s it.
BW: That was Monopoly.
CG: I always used to have that when we played.
BW: Right.
CG: I’ll take, I said I’ll take the shoe and I pinned it down and I kept it on my jacket right near the end of the war.
BW: Right up on the left collar.
CG: Yeah. I get up. It’s on there. And I was at a peacetime, the war was over and they asked me to play for football, football game. I said yeah, I quite like football. So I took my jacket off for a goalpost and I lost my ruddy thing.
BW: Ah.
CG: I always curse that I lost it but I’ll show you my dad’s thing if you want.
BW: Ok.
CG: If they had time to shave they wouldn't have the ruddy time to shave.
BW: I see. It’s like a steel mirror.
CG: Yeah. That’s right. Of course you can’t see -
BW: It comes in a little -
CG: You can’t see it now.
BW: Leather case. And it has an inscription on the top, ‘Good luck from mum’. And it has been well used but like you say.
CG: My grandmother must have done that. Not, I didn’t, my mum didn’t.
BW: That feels actually quite heavy. Almost as though -
CG: Yeah.
BW: As if it would stop a bullet.
CG: Well I don’t know. Thank goodness I didn’t have to.
BW: That’s great and you’ve still got that –
CG: Yeah.
BW: After all these years.
CG: Yeah.
[pause]
BW: So there’s a few sort of keepsakes here. You’ve just mentioned -
CG: It was only a bit bobs. Yeah.
BW: Your whistle which you used for coming down in the sea.
CG: That’s the first, that’s the first grenade I threw. What was left of it?
BW: Right. Pin off a grenade. Where did you throw that?
CG: Pulled the pin out.
BW: Yeah.
CG: When I was practicing, when you first go in more or less.
[pause]
CG: All the identity discs.
BW: I see.
[pause]
BW: Yeah. Original dog tags.
CG: Sorry?
BW: Original dog tags.
CG: Yeah. That’s empty. That’s the, well that’s that haven’t you?
BW: That’s your DFC box yeah.
[pause]
CG: I’m forgetting what some of these are now.
BW: They look like medal ribbons.
CG: Oh aye, they’re my brevet.
BW: Yeah.
CG: My brevet.
BW: Air gunner’s brevet.
CG: These are all my ’39-‘45 star. And -
BW: Oh yeah.
CG: Well you don’t want to see all these do you? Really. Them, you know what you, ribbons.
BW: Yes. Yes.
CG: Yeah. You’ve seen them.
BW: Ribbons to go on the uniform.
CG: I’ll have a full time job putting these in again. Anyway, that’s about it I think. Oh that’s what I was given I think. Prayer book. Oh no that’s what my wife was given because she, she helped with the Trinity Hospice.
BW: Right. This is a millennium medal. And your wife was in the, it looks like she was -
CG: She was in the WAAF.
BW: In the WAAF.
xxxxxx
So just coming back to your time on 429 Squadron we were talking initially about rituals and mascots which led us to look at your, some of your, some of your memorabilia. What I wanted to ask you there was a pilot on the squadron called Jim Brown who came up with a, a description and I wonder whether this might sound familiar to you but not necessarily about your aircraft. But –
CG: No.
BW: He said the procedure for boarding the aircraft for an operation was a cigarette and a silent prayer I suppose each in his own way and then you’d go out and piss on the tail wheel for good luck. The only guy to complain was a tail gunner who said, ‘How would you like me to piss on the cockpit?’ [laughs] That’s Canadian humour I suppose.
CG: Yeah.
BW: But there was -
CG: I must tell you about 429 then. We had the wireless operator’s aunt or relation sent him a mascot. Pocahontas. Have you heard of her?
BW: Yes.
CG: We had it. So Mitch said, ‘we don’t want a ruddy Pocahontas.’ So he said, ‘yeah we do.’ Anyway, we took it and this first trip we had a bit of a dicey do so Mitch said, ‘we’ll throw that ruddy Pocahontas over the side. Open the door. Open the window,’ and that. So the wireless operator said, ‘no. No. We’re keeping it.’ So he said, so Mitch said, ‘right I’ll put it to the vote. All those that want it thrown out. All those who want to keep.’ We all decided to keep it and we did and his wife’s got it now.
BW: Right.
CG: Pocahontas. His wife’s got it.
BW: And was it like a little stuffed doll?
CG: Indian squaw. Indian squaw. It was about that big.
BW: Yeah. Oh.
CG: Doll.
BW: About twelve inch high. Yeah. Twelve inch high doll.
CG: Yeah.
BW: And he kept it in the, on board with him during the flight did he?
CG: I’ve got a photo of it. No, you’re going to be here all ruddy night.
BW: That’s alright.
CG: I’ve got a photo of it upstairs somewhere. Yeah.
BW: Right.
CG: Pocahontas.
BW: But you didn’t yourself smoke during those days did you?
CG: No. Well no not really.
BW: What was the, what would you say the attitude of the crew was during your tour of operations? Some have described it as being if you get through three they, the command think you’ve paid off your training and your life expectancy was eleven missions and this guy, this pilot Brown who I mentioned before he said if you, it gives you a kind of fatalistic attitude of eat, drink and be merry because you don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. Did you feel that sort of attitude -
CG: We did at times.
BW: Within the squadron?
CG: Yeah. We did. You just kept, you know hoping everything would turn out alright. It was only one, one trip I knew. Munster. I didn’t want to go on that for some reason. Didn’t want to, but we went anyway but that was when, yeah, that was Munster yeah but we went on it but it was just one of those things, that’s all. Not much.
BW: And so -
CG: Some people did. Some crew, not our crew but some other crews they didn’t want to do this or didn’t want to fly there. In fact there was one, we were at briefing when we came back and we were sat there waiting to go in for our briefing and used to get questions you know, you know that? Not briefing. You get questions. You know that. Not briefing. It was interrogation afterwards. Interrogation.
BW: Yes when you landed -
CG: That’s it.
BW: And you were debriefed. Yeah.
CG: Yeah and this chap, this air gunner came in and he was ruddy crying. Absolutely crying. A bloke. You know. And he was trembling all over and he was saying, ‘never again. I’m not going never again. Never again.’ And I ushered him out quick. Oh I can see him now that lad. Irish I think he was. In fact, so they say, I don’t know how true it was or whether the rest of his crew had said it but they’d been hose-piped. He’d been in the turret and hose-piped. That means he was sat in the turret and he had had two fighters coming in and he’d be going like that with his gun you see.
BW: So he’d be moving the turret from side to side trying -
CG: Yeah.
BW: To hit both aircraft.
CG: Yeah trying to shoot, just shooting, firing at will sort of thing.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Now, that’s all I knew about it. Everybody was talking about it but. And then we then one day we were called out on parade. All of them. The whole station called out on parade. Everybody on the parade ground. Everybody. And they marched this lad out, air gunner, and stripped him of his, stripped him off of his, he’d been court martialled ‘cause he wouldn’t, wouldn’t fly again. And they stripped his tapes off and his brevet off and everything. And he was just an ordinary airmen then which I think is shocking that. I mean if a bloke can’t do it he can’t do it can he? I mean hell. Bloody hell fire. We had one or two more trips but like Karlsruhe that was ruddy electric storms from the time we went in 'till we left the French coast and they lost a hell of a lot then because planes were coming out all over the place and they blamed, they said it was the Met trouble, Met men, Met men, they always got the blame. Oh dear anyway that’s going back a long way now. All that.
BW: And this same Irish air gunner was demoted to airman. Did he stay on the base or did you hear of him again?
CG: I didn’t hear about him again. Maybe he was, I guess he would have been posted somewhere. Yeah. He wouldn’t stay, I don’t think he would stay on the station. They wouldn’t allow that I don’t think unless they were that ruddy cruel but I know they marched him off and that was it. Yeah.
BW: And as a gunner did you see many aircraft or em flak shells come your way at all? I mean were there –
CG: Oh we got –
BW: Instances where you were let’s say fully occupied in your job.
CG: We got shrapnel marks when we got back. Yeah. We got caught in searchlights on one but Mitch did a ruddy quick dive and we got out of that but there was always ruddy flak going up all over the place and you had to keep your eyes open for ruddy fighters. But I don’t know whether to tell you, I don’t know, on our third or fourth trip we’d done our bombing and Mitch says to Corkie, the navigator, ‘right, Corkie, give us a course for home now. We want to get back quick,’ So, Corkie, the navigator said, he said, ‘I’m sorry Mitch,’ he said, ‘I’ve lost, I’ve lost track.’ ‘Sodding hell,’ he said, Mitch said, ‘well find it as soon as you can.’ So, well he said, ‘keep going. Look out for any landmarks you might see.’ This is pitch black. Landmarks. We went on for about two or three minutes. All of a sudden the bomb aimer, who was sat in the front, he said, ‘hey Mitch, what’s all those lights in front?’ So of course I moved my turret to have a look and it was bloody lights. Electric. So Corkie the navigator said, ‘oh I’ve got it now,’ he said, ‘the lights. They’re good.’ He said, ‘that’s Switzerland.’ So Mitch said, ‘that’s what?' He said, ‘that’s Switzerland. We can take, we can take a plot from there.’ So Mitch said, ‘Wait a minute,’ he said, ‘that’s Switzerland. We can land there and get interned for the rest of the war. What do you think lads?’ He said, ‘I’ll put it to the vote. We can, if you want we can go down, get interned, finished for the war or we can get back, try and get back. What do you want to do?’ And we all said, ‘let’s try and get back Mitch.’ And that was it. Yeah. The lights. I remember turning my turret to look. I thought bloody hell where’s that then I thought, didn’t think it was ruddy Switzerland. Yeah. And then we had a job getting back then because of the ruddy petrol. By the time we got back Mitch gave us the object that, ‘do you want to bail out? I don’t know whether we’re going to make the Channel.’ ‘No we’re staying’ and just before we got to the Channel he said, ‘I’m telling you now we may have to ditch and get into a dinghy. So I’m giving you the option to bail out or stay in.’ ‘Oh we’ll stay in Mitch.’ We got across and as we got, as we crossed the coast Mitch told the wireless operator to call up on the wireless the nearest ‘drome. We’ve got to land. Emergency. Must land right away which we did and we got a call, oh I can’t remember that now, we got a call and we came in. We landed and when we got in the chap who took us in at the end he came and told us afterwards, he said, ‘you didn’t have much petrol left lads,’ he said. Yeah.
BW: That was a good decision though.
CG: Yeah. They all come back. It all comes back don’t it?
BW: Yeah.
CG: Bloody hell. You’ll never get, I’ll have to give you bed and breakfast the way we’re going.
BW: And so coming, coming out over the coast you’d obviously had the -
CG: [?] trips.
BW: The double hazard of flak ships and -
CG: The what?
BW: Coastal batteries. Coming out over the coast of France you’d have the double hazard because you’d have the coastal batteries.
CG: Oh yeah that were oh they were there.
BW: The flak ships and the channel.
CG: Yeah they were still following yeah. Yeah. By the way I didn’t mention that me Legion of, not Legion of honour. Me, what do they call it when you get from the king and queen from the king, signed it. The citation.
BW: Yes.
CG: My citation for my DFC. Have you seen it?
BW: No.
CG: Well it’s there if you want to see it.
BW: Okay. We’ll have, we’ll have a look in a, in a minute or two.
CG: Yeah.
BW: If that’s okay.
CG: Yeah. Carry on. Sorry.
BW: That’s alright. So this would now have been early ‘44 when you were part way through your tour. And -
CG: I finished my tour then, ’44.
BW: And so were you involved in missions in the run up to D-Day? There was a -
CG: Oh yes we did D-Day.
BW: Change, change in Bomber Command tactics there.
CG: Went over on D-Day because as we were coming back you could see them going across, the lads, the ships. The navy, the, whatever they were navy, navy, the boarding ships, you know.
BW: Yeah landing, landing, landing craft.
CG: They were going across as we were coming back.
BW: And so was that early morning? Very early morning.
CG: Well it tells you what time. What time did we land? Or take off and land. It gives –
BW: Ok. Let’s have a look just further through it’s -
CG: June ‘44 wasn’t it?
BW: Yes.
CG: That would be 429 Squadron.
BW: Quite a few night ops in the Ruhr Valley and then -
CG: 429 Squadron it would be.
BW: That’s right. Now this is interesting because you, it says here on the 5th of June.
CG: June, that’s it.
BW: A night operation taking off at 22.34.
CG: That’s it.
BW: In U-Uncle and your operation was to Merville Franceville, it says here.
CG: That would have been one of the, one of the places just, just over past over the beach I should think. I don’t know. I can’t remember now.
BW: Yeah that that sounds about right. They were quite common to be hitting targets just inland.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Of where the beachhead was supposed to be. Did you, were you told in advance that this was in support of D-Day? Did you know the invasion -
CG: Oh no we were just going. Yeah. Nobody said anything about that. We just, not as far as I can remember anyway. No. No. It mean it was over seventy years ago.
BW: Sometimes you might -
CG: Yeah they do, they stick.
BW: Crews might have -
CG: Yeah they do.
BW: Might have had an inkling that this was for the invasion.
CG: Yeah we did.
BW: Sometimes.
CG: Because when we were coming back like I say Mitch, Mitch made some remark about, ‘hey lads, there’s the lads going across. The invasion.’ So they must have said something. Oh I don’t know. I can’t remember now. Not to be honest but you could see all the ships, all the barges going across yeah. Could look down, we could see them going down as you looked down.
BW: And when you realised that was the invasion -
CG: Yeah.
BW: How did that feel?
CG: Yeah and when we got back of course we knew. Everybody knew then.
BW: How did that feel? To look down on the armada.
CG: Yeah I thought oh hell the lads, you know, going across there. I mean they went through a hell of a lot didn’t they? Landed in France first off. We’d been over obviously I think to, to soften some of the targets up beyond. Yeah [pause] no.
BW: And then moving on to mid ’44. When did you finish your first tour? It looks, looks like it was -
CG: It would have been just after D-Day was it?
BW: July.
CG: ‘44
BW: Let’s have a look.
CG: D-Day was ‘44. Yeah.
BW: That’s right. Completion of tour July 9th ‘44 and you’d flown 34 trips.
CG: That’s it. That’s when we -
BW: Thirty four ops.
CG: Finished. End of tour ‘cause we did thirty and we thought we’d finished and when Mitch went to report back, he came back, he said ‘they want us to carry on ‘cause they’re short of crews.’ So we thought oh hell ‘cause we thought we’d finished the thirty. Thirty was a tour. So anyway we did go on. We said, ‘alright.’ Carried on. We did four more and then we got back he was called back in again. He said, ‘you’re finished. That’s it.’ And that was it. Until they called me up again. They sent for me end of ‘44 wasn’t it? That’s it. End of ’44.
BW: And so did you, did Mitch ask the crew to vote again whether they wanted to continue with the other four trips or was it just -
CG: Oh no. As far as I remember now we were waiting by the, by the aircraft waiting for Mitch to come back because he had to report, they had to report and he came back. He said, ‘sorry,’ something about, ‘oh lads. They’re short of crews and they want us to carry on for a bit. Just a few.’ So, well everybody said, ‘yeah, alright.’ So we did four more and then when we got from there we, you got, he had to go back and he came back and he said, ‘that’s it lads. We’ve, end of tour.’ Yay. End of the tour. That was it.
BW: Did you go out and celebrate?
CG: I think we did yeah. At that time oh blimey yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then from then I was just playing, mucking about on the station doing anything, you know. Going in the mess, having a cup of coffee and all that until they sent me on my indefinite leave and I was home, oh weeks of indefinite leave. I was home. Great. And then towards the end of ‘44 I got this telegram. Oh that’s only a thing. A telegram saying, ‘go to your local police station. Pick up a railway warrant for RAF Feltwell.’ And I remember saying to my dad, I said to me dad, ‘where the hell is Feltwell, dad? He said, ‘I don’t know.’ He said, ‘we’ll go, I’ll come with you. We’ll go to the police station.’ So we went down one evening down the police station oh yeah, looked up some books. It’s, it’s where it is. I don’t know where it is now. Is it Cambridgeshire or something, is it?
BW: Yes.
CG: Yes. So I said, he said, ‘well what’s on there then?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ I said, ‘I’ve just got to report,’ I said, thinking it was a ground job but when I got there it was this. It was about, I don’t know it was a hell of a lot. About twenty I think. All in the same boat and we’d all, everybody had done one tour and when it came out that they wanted us to man a point five gun in, in a plane, in the Lanc 'cause we were all up in arms what about all these people, bloody people, all these blokes teaching everything. Gunnery leaders. No they want somebody who’s done a tour. All that bloody rubbish you know. So we had to go on a course. We went on a course. I don’t know how long it was. Two or three weeks. Something like that. So had somebody showing us how to take the point five because it was a bigger, bigger gun. Taking it on. Seven hundred and fifty rounds a minute it fired. How to take it together, how to put it up together you know they showed us all that and we never had to do any armouring with it but then they came around after, looking for, oh no we’d had our leave, and they said, on the Tuesday they came and said, ‘right you’re going to your squadrons today lads,’ and there was two to a squadron. This fella, the funny fluke the same fella I knew at 429. Him and I went to 75 Squadron. I went on one flight and he went on the other flight and there were only us two who were going on this but the others went to other squadrons of course. Yeah, and that was it and we had to carry on.
BW: Just out of interest you mentioned before when you were in the Halifax you were on 303 guns.
CG: On what, sorry?
BW: When you were on the Halifax you were on flying and using 303 Brownings and then in the Lancaster you used just two, point five inch -
CG: Oh yeah on a on a -
BW: Heavy machine guns.
CG: On a Halifax I had four 303s. One thousand one hundred and fifty rounds a minute. And then I went, when I went on [79] I just had the one. The big one though.
BW: Yeah. Faster. Yeah.
CG: Like the American things.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Similar to that. Seven hundred and fifty a minute.
BW: How did you find them in terms of using them?
CG: Oh different altogether.
BW: Were they more powerful and -
CG: Oh yes stronger. The, what’s its name?
BW: Point five.
CG: The small one had a range of three hundred yards. I can’t remember now on the big one but it had a ruddy big bullet like that.
BW: Yeah. About twelve inch long.
CG: Yeah.
BW: And -
CG: But –
BW: Sorry go on.
CG: All I, all I had was a hole in the floor, you know. I had a chair if I wanted but I’m not being ruddy brave but you couldn’t see much. I had to get down. I should get down and look. Look. Look like that see.
BW: Lean forward.
CG: See if anybody was there. Coming off the seat now. I couldn’t do it now.
BW: Now this is interesting because I’ve seen the term and you’ve used it yourself as a mid under gunner on a Lancaster and can you just describe what that entailed?
CG: What a mid under gunner?
BW: Mid under gunner yeah because we normally think of Lancasters as just having the front, rear and mid upper.
CG: No.
BW: But this is a position actually on the underside the aircraft.
CG: Originally it was what they called the H2S, it was the navigation thing. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of it and it helped the navigator and bomb aimer. It was, it was underneath, in between, do you know where it is? Was?
BW: Yes. Yes.
CG: Well they took that out, took all that and just put the gun in. That’s all and I was sat there by the hole with a point five.
BW: Just a single point five calibre -
CG: Yes.
BW: Gun.
CG: Just one. You could swing it around, you could move it of course.
BW: Okay.
CG: Yeah oh yeah. Nothing else. Yeah.
BW: So this wasn’t like the ball turret on a Flying Fortress where you were actually belted in to it and able to swivel.
CG: Oh no I wasn’t belted in. No.
BW: You were just sat around the -
CG: I sat on the chair.
BW: Turret with a hole yeah.
CG: Yeah.
BW: And pointing the gun underneath.
CG: That’s it.
BW: But you had -
CG: Just looking at -
BW: You had to crouch forward to look -
CG: I did, yeah.
BW: Through the hole.
CG: Yeah I did because -
BW: To see the target.
CG: I was sat like that. They was like that but I preferred to get down and get, I know it’s self-preservation but really you get down by the, I used to look like this. Yeah. I was plugged in.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Electric suit and all that.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Thank goodness. And yeah you could see it back like that. You can imagine a hole.
BW: Yeah.
CG: You get down you can see better can’t you?
BW: Sort of probably leaning forward.
CG: Yeah.
BW: You didn’t lie down. You perhaps knelt or crouched.
CG: Sorry?
BW: You didn’t lie down in the, in the Lancaster.
CG: Well I knelt down mainly.
BW: Yeah.
CG: But I leaned across.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Knelt down and leaned to look at one side.
BW: Yeah.
CG: And whatever, whichever I wanted to keep an eye out.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Keep a lookout.
BW: That’s interesting. That is interesting.
CG: I mean, I suppose every gunner had a, did what they wanted but that was the best way I could think of because I could hold the guns at the same time and swing it round look down, get down, then bring it down. See. Point the gun at where ever I was looking at so if I did see anybody I could, there you are.
BW: And that must have been quite an uncomfortable position I suppose.
CG: It was really yeah it was yeah. I mean you had all your flying kit on. Mae West and all the, all the harness, you know, for your chute and your chute by the side of you. Yeah it was really but if I was, there again self-preservation you do what you can can’t you? Everybody was doing their bit sort of thing. The rear gunner was there. Mid upper. So we had eight in a crew then.
BW: I was just going to say because -
CG: Yeah.
BW: The normal compliment as -
CG: Yeah.
BW: You said is seven.
CG: That’s right.
BW: And with the mid under you were the eighth.
CG: Yeah but I know it sounded you had to do. You had two choices put the seat there like this. Then you had the, you would have to bend down and look down and then.
BW: Yeah.
CG: And look like that.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Bloody bloke could be there before you knew where you were.
BW: Yeah.
CG: So -
BW: You couldn’t see properly.
CG: No. You couldn’t.
BW: When you were sat on the little seat.
CG: You couldn’t see much. You could only see -
BW: Yeah.
CG: So far but when I got down on my knees if you like.
BW: Yeah.
CG: And stretched you could see right back.
BW: Yeah.
CG: You could see if anybody was coming. ‘Cause I mean it would be in and out in no time. A fighter. A Messerschmitt or Focke Wulf.
BW: And did any of them try it?
CG: Sorry?
BW: Did any of them try it?
CG: No. Thank goodness. Oh bloody hell, thank goodness. Oh no. Oh dear.
BW: And I believe you flew the first three missions with 75 Squadron with Bill Mallon.
CG: Come again.
BW: I believe you flew your first three operations with a pilot called Bill Mallon.
CG: Oh I couldn’t, I can’t remember now. I had different pilots every time at Mepal. Yeah. You see, I was on L for London. That was the one. When that flew I flew but if it wasn’t on that night I wasn’t on. It was as easy that. So whichever crew came out, it was, well I didn’t have far to go. Only across the road to the runway from where I was, where the mess was and I was lucky. All I had to do was walk from here across the road and I was there. So -
BW: Literally less than a hundred yards presumably.
CG: Yeah. Near. I never knew unless I went in to, well I did go in to briefing but I never knew who the crew was because there were so many and there’d be seven and they’d always sit together and I was kind of odd man out if you like because I didn’t have a proper crew so I went out to the plane and when I went out I watched to see who was walking towards L for London and I thought well that’s them.
BW: And was that because there were relatively few aircraft with an under gun?
CG: Yeah. Only two on our squadron. Now there was other squadrons because when we went out that morning to go to our various squadrons there was only two that got off for Mepal. That was me and Taffy. Taffy Duggan. Now the others were left, others stayed in, stayed in the van and they went off to whatever squadrons they were going to in the group I should think as far as I know. If I can remember as well. There’s only two got on our squadron. One, one for each flight.
BW: And was Taffy with you on 429?
CG: Sorry?
BW: Was Taffy with you on 429?
CG: Well, he was, he was with another crew.
BW: I see.
CG: He was in –
BW: Okay.
CG: 429, yeah 429 squadron but he had another crew.
BW: Yes.
CG: Flew with another crew. Yeah.
BW: And so there were just the two of you taken from 429, posted to 75.
CG: Well we weren’t taken from it we -
BW: Sorry you completed your tour. Yes.
CG: We finished our tour there so we were.
BW: Yes. Yeah.
CG: Written off then. Finished.
BW: Yeah.
CG: But he must have got the telegram same time as I got mine to report to Feltwell.
BW: Yes.
CG: And all that, yeah.
BW: Yeah. Sorry that was my misuse of words I said taken but obviously you’d finished your tour and went to 75.
CG: Yeah and when we went we got detailed for Mepal. Both of us. But as I say he went on one flight. I can’t remember the flight now. A or B and I went on the other one. And his was, mine was L for London and his was M for Mother.
BW: And you’d flown previously with a Canadian Squadron and 75 Squadron was actually a New Zealand squadron.
CG: New Zealand. That’s right. Yeah.
BW: So you never really flew -
CG: Quite a few like that.
BW: With an RAF Squadron did you?
CG: Yeah, yeah different, different ones, you know. South Africans I think and as far as I know. I don’t know about that though.
BW: So by this time in late ‘44 and early ‘45 what were your missions like at this time? Were there more daylight missions as opposed to night?
CG: Well, it tells you in the book. Nights and days. If, whatever, whatever is in red is night. Whatever is in blue or black is daylight.
BW: Okay. So -
CG: If it says DNO, DNC duty carried out. Or if it’s DNCO duty not carried out. There must have been something wrong. We got a bit of bother or something.
BW: Okay. And so -
CG: But all in red was night trips. All in other colours blue or whatever, black, is daylight.
BW: Yeah. So you got a couple of night raids here. One Hohenasperg [?]
CG: Where?
BW: Hernburg.
CG: Oh I can’t see I can’t see sorry.
BW: At the top there. It looks like H O E N
CG: OPS. Ops to oh I don’t know. I can’t pronounce that myself. It took four and a half, five hours near enough. It doesn’t say what it was does it? Oh Zinzan, I remember him. Yeah, I do remember that name. Ops to, it would be, it would be Belgium somewhere Dutch I think. I don’t know. Sorry I can't.
BW: That’s okay. No problem.
CG: I don’t know where that is.
BW: But there’s a few into Germany in, in February and most of them moving in to March and exactly seventy one years ago there are towns like Salzbergen, [?], Gelsenkirchen, Essen, Munster, Ham. They’re all daylight raids.
CG: Were they? I can’t remember now. Yeah, if they’re in, if it says DNCO, it’s in red.
BW: Yeah.
CG: It’s a night trip. Any other colour it’s a day trip.
BW: Yeah, that’s right.
CG: 429 we did mainly nights. At 75 mainly days I think. Yeah.
BW: That’s right. Did you sense the war was coming to an end at this point?
CG: Well we knew the lads were doing well but we didn’t know. No, didn’t. You know, well I didn’t know. No. I mean they were advancing well and the Russians, the Russians were doing their bit so it was getting towards that way yeah. Must have thought that. Yeah. Must have done.
BW: And you mentioned that your Lanc had done quite a number of missions. Did you get, did it get to a hundred?
CG: What the plane? Oh I don’t know. We, when I left it was still, still working. Yeah. But the war was over then when I left. Oh yeah. The war was over when I left wasn’t it? Near enough. I left in er -
BW: Can you describe how it, how you heard about the end of the war and what it felt like?
CG: Oh yeah.
BW: And how it felt like.
CG: Because we were in a big group when I got back from a trip we were in a big group talking and they said the war’s nearly over, almost over. Nearly over. And the gunnery, I got a message, ‘the gunnery leader wants to see you Chas.’ And I thought, ‘Oh ruddy hell what’s happened. I haven’t done anything.’ First thing on my mind. And when I went in he said, ‘you’re finished. I’ve just got, I’ve got a message from Group,’ he said from here. Here you are, he said, ‘you’re finished.’ I said, ‘What do you mean finished?’ ‘No more. No more. You’re finished. In fact, I want, there’s only one trip to do. Wingco is going to deliver food to The Hague but don’t forget it’s not been signed yet,’ that was it. Yeah. ‘It’s not been signed yet and - ‘
BW: So -
CG: ‘So don’t, so keep your guns on safe.’ I remember this, ‘keep your guns on safe but keep an eye out because there might still be some Nazis still flying around ‘cause the treaty’s not been signed. The war’s still on.’ So I said, ‘right.’ And that’s the only, I disobeyed him then because I thought if there’s going to be some ruddy stupid Nazi walking, running about I’m having my guns ready. So I turned them on ready. Blow that game I thought and then when we got over to The Hague and they were all waving I just lifted my guns up like that to get out of the way just in case but no. Nobody came and then when we got back within a few days, three or four days, a week perhaps war finished hadn’t it? War finished on June the 5th was it?
BW: May 8th.
CG: Something like that.
BW: Yeah.
CG: It will tell you there when, the date of my last trip. It took, what day was my last trip? It would be that Hague thing yeah.
BW: Just having a look here. So, yes, now this is the 7th of May.
CG: Yeah that’s it.
BW: In Lancaster R.
CG: R?
BW: And -
CG: What? At Mepal?
BW: Yes. It’s got Lancaster R on the -
CG: Can I have a look?
BW: Yes. Certainly.
[pause]
CG: Oh yes, the wing commander. That’s it. Yeah. That was that. Yeah. Just before I finished. About a month before the war finished. Before the war finished wasn’t it. And Tugwell called me in, he said ‘will you do one more trip'. That’s when he said about me finishing. I said, ‘what is it?’ He said, ‘the Wingco’s going to drop some food over The Hague.’ That’s when he told me to keep watch, watch for the Germans coming around and he, yeah, that’s it. So the war finished about a month after wasn’t it?
BW: It would be a day after.
CG: Oh day after.
BW: Yeah.
CG: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
BW: But this was Operation Manna I believe which was dropping food to the starving Dutch.
CG: Come again.
BW: I said this would be Operation Manna which was dropping food supplies to the Dutch.
CG: Yeah that’s right. Dropping food for The Hague.
BW: Yeah.
CG: What date was that? That was just before the war finished.
BW: Yeah 7th of May -
CG: That’s it.
BW: You’ve got there.
CG: That’s what I thought that’s made my 50th trip [pause]. Then that was it then I think. No more.
MW: Yeah. It says here completion of tour, second tour June 10th 1945 and you’d done fifteen and a third trips it says.
CG: When did I finish?
BW: 10th of June 1945.
CG: Yeah. June. That would be it then. That’s what. Yeah.
BW: What was the wing commander’s name? It’s spelt B A I G E N T . How do you pronounce it? Is it Baigent?
CG: Oh I remember him yeah. Baigent I think it was. Baigent. Wing Commander Baigent. B A I G E N T. That’s it.
BW: And you could see, on that trip you could see all the people.
CG: On the top waving. Waving.
BW: Waving.
CG: ‘Cause we were dropping food. Yeah. And the whole country was a mass of water. The Germans had opened the dams and flooded the country. Yeah. I could see that. It was just like the ruddy ocean it was. Full of water. I thought bloody hell and they were on top of this building. The Hague I think it was. Going ruddy mad waving. Dropped food for them. Bloody hell. Aye a long time now and they’re still ruddy arguing, fighting somewhere or other aren’t they? Ruddy hell.
BW: But the Dutch really appreciated that from you know from all records the Dutch really appreciated-
CG: Oh the Dutch did.
BW: The food.
CG: We keep on hearing about that yeah. Yeah, the Dutch, yeah they did. Oh they were great.
BW: Do you keep in touch with any of your former crewmates?
CG: Well I used to write to them and everything. Speak to them. But unfortunately they’ve all, all died but I still, I still keep in touch with the pilot, Mitch, his wife because she, she’d, they married in Dagenham. Ilford, Essex and we went to their wedding and believe it or not the bloody doodlebug came over. Went on though thank goodness. But she went back with him to Canada but we still keep in touch but he passed away I’m afraid. And I used to keep in touch with Bill Lawrence’s wife but I haven’t heard from her from ages so I don’t know.
BW: You mentioned a guy called Zinzan.
CG: Who?
BW: Zinzan. The New Zealander.
CG: Oh he was a pilot. Yeah. The name came back to me then. Zinzan yeah.
BW: What do you recall about him?
CG: Just he was a pilot that’s all. But I have, I have heard of another interesting thing but with all this was going on I didn’t intend this it’s only because where I go of a morning for a coffee there’s a bloke there who was in the army and he had one of these things. I don’t know. Not a tape recorder. Not -
BW: A smartphone.
CG: It could be, it could pick up anything anywhere and anything. He said to me one morning, ‘you were in the RAF Charles weren’t you? I said, ‘yeah.’ He said, ‘what squadron were you in?’ I said, ‘429, 75.’ He said, ‘do you ever get newsletters?’ I said, ‘no they wouldn’t have, they wouldn’t have a news place over here.’ I said, ‘they would have one in Canada and New Zealand.’ Anyway, he fiddled with this. He came back five minutes later. He said, ‘they have one in Scampton.’ So I said, ‘oh bloody hell.’ He said, ‘anyway, I’ve asked them to send you one in time.’ So I said, ‘right. Oh very good.’ So what was we on about first off? It’s gone.
BW: We were talking about Zinzan. The pilot that you knew. Zinzan.
CG: Oh yes.
BW: And you were keeping in touch with Mitch and –
CG: Another chap got on the phone to me. I said, ‘who is it?’ He said he lives in Sheffield. I said, ‘well what about it?’ He said, ‘well he’s telling me', I said, ‘what do you mean he’s telling you?’ ‘On this,’ he said. ‘He’s telling me that, he’s got your name down in his father’s logbook.’ I said, ‘come on, you’re having me on somewhere here.’ He said, ‘no,’ he said. Anyway to cut a long story short he said, ‘can I give you his name?’ I said, ‘yes.’ He said, ‘he wants to be in touch.’ Which he did. He’s writing a book and he wanted to have a word with me about, can I mention my name in his book he said because his father was an engineer on one of the planes that I was ‘cause it’s in his logbook.
BW: That’s right. His name’s Bob Jay.
CG: Who?
BW: Bob Jay.
CG: Oh well sod me. And do you know where he lives?
BW: I don’t know where he lives but I have -
CG: You ain’t got his address?
BW: I can, I can probably get it but he has a website up for 75 Squadron.
CG: Oh has he, has he been in touch with you then?
BW: Well no that, we haven’t been in touch but I found his website.
CG: Oh I don’t know about them. Yeah.
BW: Which is basically -
CG: Yeah I’ll leave it to you.
BW: A site for where all these experiences are logged and he mentions -
CG: Yeah.
BW: Exactly like you say his father is the flight engineer called Bob Jay and you flew your first three trips with that crew.
[doorbell rings]
CG: Oh there’s somebody at the ruddy door. Just a second.
BW: Alright.
CG: I thought I saw somebody walking up there.
BW: I’ll just pause the recording while we’re doing that.
CG: Oh dear me.
[recorder pause]
BW: What I’m just going to show you here is a list of the crew which were in your first aircraft for your first three trips and this is the pilot Bill Mallon.
CG: Where? Oh -
BW: On the top here.
CG: Is that him there?
BW: That’s him there.
CG: Oh blow me.
BW: And that is Bob Jay the flight engineer you mentioned, that picture there.
CG: Oh sod, blow me.
BW: And that is, that is his description.
CG: Where?
BW: This line here.
CG: Sergeant Robert ‘Bob’ Alfred Jay. Yeah. Mid upper gunner. Who was the mid upper gunner then? Sergeant Doug Cook. Flying officer, oh dear. He got me wrong number down hasn’t he. He’s got 187. No. 178730 that’s right. Sorry. Flew first three ops with, yeah, oh blow me. Yes.
BW: So -
CG: He got on to me on the 'phone and he said could he, could he do this and write and I said yeah.
BW: There’s quite a lot of information about 75 Squadron.
CG: Yeah.
BW: On the internet where this relative of Bob’s has put all the information. Where he’s put his website.
CG: Yeah.
BW: There’s a lot of information about 75 squadron and so that’s where your name appears as well as part of the crew list.
CG: Yeah. Blow me. It’s funny that.
BW: So -
CG: Yeah oh we had a chat ‘cause he had one or two things ‘cause he was writing a book but he’s got, he’s got my marriage wrong. I married in ‘49 not ‘47. He got me number wrong.
BW: Right.
CG: And he got my rank wrong so I want to get, so can you give me his 'phone number then?
BW: I don’t have it with me.
CG: Oh.
BW: But what I’ll do I’ll have a look over the next few days at the website.
CG: Yes.
BW: And I’ll get in touch with him. If I can’t see his phone number or contact details on the internet I will get in touch with him and I’ll ask him to contact you.
CG: Yeah.
BW: If that’s alright.
CG: Okay then. Please.
BW: So it’ll take a few days but I’ll ask him to get in touch with you.
CG: Oh yeah. Yeah. I appreciate what you’re doing.
BW: That’s okay.
CG: Yeah.
BW: And, and that should sort him out for you really. So apart from that we’ve now got to the end of your second tour and you’ve finished at the end of the war.
CG: Yeah.
BW: What then happened after that? Were you waiting to be demobbed?
CG: No.
BW: Or –
CG: No. Let me think now. 1945 wasn’t it? No, I went to, I went on, no I went to Hereford, admin course and that’s where I learned, a chap came up to me a mate what was there said, ‘hey you got a gong.’ I said, ‘what do you mean I got a gong?’ That’s when I, he said, oh no it wasn’t that mate. No, no I got a letter from my parents, that’s it. No. He said, ‘come on.’ he said, ‘you live in Dagenham don’t you?’ I said, ‘yeah.’ He said, ‘I live in Chadwell Heath.’ He said, ‘I’m going home for a couple of days now we’ve, do you want a lift?’ I said, ‘brilliant.’ So I put the letter in my pocket and when I got in the car going home, opened the letter, it said, ‘you’ve got the DFC.’ It was in the local paper and I didn’t know anything about it. I thought 'oh sod me what have I got that for', blah blah you think to yourself and that was it. Then ‘cause we had the Christmas off I think it was, something like that. And we went, he picked me up in Dagenham again, went back to the course and that’s where I finished up going on ground duties. Adjutant, assistant adjutant and all that business and I finished up at Padgate as a flight commander training recruits that was the main thing. The adjutant thing was only a couple of weeks to give someone leave but other than that I was knocking about leave and all that and then they sent me to, I was at Coningsby wasn’t I? At Coningsby interviewing these army, navy whatever about medals. I had a long list of what you, what you’re entitled to and what not. Did that. I went to Padgate, well I told that. Where I used to meet then Marge yeah and then training recruits and that’s where I finished up. Got demobbed then. Eventually.
BW: And when you left the RAF what happened then?
CG: Well I went, I lived I lived in London, Essex and Marge lived in Sheffield and I thought shame ‘cause we were both getting on well together. So she said, ‘you can come and live here if you want.’ She said for, nothing like that what you’re thinking.
BW: No. No. No. No.
CG: Nothing like that.
BW: No. I know what you mean.
CG: So, they only had a small cottage that was falling to bits. To cut a long story short they boarded it upstairs so separate rooms and parents and all of us so we lived like that for a while. So, depending on a date was the 20th, 30th no 31st of April 19....., April that was it 31st of April 1949 and we got, we got married then.
BW: And what happened to you career wise after that? Where did you work?
CG: I got a job at that, that was another piece of luck, have you got time? Well I thought when I got there I was at Sheffield I thought sodding hell what am I going to, I’m halfway through an apprenticeship, wartime. So I went down to see me parents my father, me parents and he said, ‘well,‘ he said, ‘I don’t know what you'll do.’ He said, ‘you’re tied. Tied to Dennis Truscott. He’s opened the, I know the firm got bombed but he opened a small one now’. So he said, ‘go and have a word with him.’ So I went down, went to London to Dennis Truscott, explained it all, ‘well,’ he said, ‘Well if you want to break the apprenticeship you can. Wartime,’ he said. 'Wartime'. 'Being wartime'. He said, ‘you’d have been finished by now.’ So he said, ‘yes. if you get, get somebody to, where you’re going to live to take it on.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘right.’ So I did that. So I went back, told Marge. So that was great. So I said yes. I’ve got to find somewhere now here to take me on printing. So he said, so I went to the, I went to the employment exchange as it was then and the chap said, ‘well there is an interrupted apprenticeship scheme.’ So I said, ‘oh can I go into that?’ He said 'yes.' Anyway to cut a long story short he put me on to the union, he got me to the, on to the union. He put me down, put me down for interrupted apprenticeship scheme. It was on the war thing, it was, carried on after the war for so many years. He put me on to the name of the union official so I went to see him. So I explained it all to him. He said, ‘oh blow me. I don’t know. I don’t know who could take you on.’ He said, ‘I’ll tell you what,’ he said, I’ll ring up so and so. He’s the runs the newspaper, The Star, The Sheffield Star which he did. So he said, ‘yes, he’ll have a word with you.’ So I went down to see, Mr Bloomfield, it was, manager, and when I went into his office he had a RAF tie on. I thought cracker. So he said, ‘yeah I think we can,’ and I got my interrupted apprenticeship scheme and got it there so I started at The Star and then but about twelve months later they said they were going to move. They were going to Stockport and I thought 'oh no.' Well I went home and said to Marge, ‘Marge they’re going to Stockport.’ ‘Oh I don’t want to go there.’ So I went back. While I was there I was general print then. General print. So I thought I wonder if I’d get into other newspapers, so I asked for permission, asked to see one of the other managers of other newspapers so he said funny thing, he said, ‘we want someone, yeah.’ And that was it I got into newspapers and The Star at Sheffield.
BW: How long were you there?
CG: From 1960 when we moved across to, no, hang on a minute. No, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. Oh dear. War finished. It would have January or something 1949 wouldn’t it? I was demobbed in 1949 wasn't I. No I can’t remember. I was married in ‘49. I was demobbed in ‘47 wasn’t it? ‘47. Went all through that, got the job at The Star. We came here on holiday, got fixed up with a house.
BW: And this is Poulton.
CG: Yeah.
BW: Where you came on holiday.
CG: We got fixed up with the house and I remember saying to Marge, ‘there’s only one other thing Marge.’ She said, ‘what’s that?’ What’s that? ‘I’ve got to get a job.’ That was it. Yeah. ‘I’ve got to get a job.’ She said, ‘oh hell.’ I said, ‘I’ll go to the local paper. There must be a local paper here.’ I said, ‘I’ll see if they’ve got any vacancies.’ So I went in, in to the local paper but he was, the manager was off for lunch so I went back out again for a coffee and went back again about two o’clock and I remember this, it sticks with you, he said yes lad what, not lad, ‘what can I do for you? What do you want to know?' Something. ‘Well I just called in to see you want any, have you got any vacancies?’ So he said, ‘well what, what do you do?’ I said, ‘I’m a rotary printer.’ ‘Blow me,’ he said, like that. He said, ‘you must be psychic.’ I said, ‘how do you, what do you mean?’ ‘We’re advertising for one. Come with me downstairs,’ so we went downstairs. The machines were running, picked a paper off the thing, opened it up, ‘wanted: newspaper printer’. He said, ‘we’ll go upstairs, we’ll have a chat, if we’re in agreement the job’s yours,’ he said but I said, ‘wait a minute. I’m on holiday.’ I said, ‘I can’t stay.’ ‘Don’t worry about that. Whatever you’re doing now, job, you’ll have to give notice.’ I said, ‘yes. A fortnight.’ He said, ‘well don’t worry. Doesn’t matter about that. If you want the job it’s yours.’ We had a chat, money and all that and he said, ‘yes the job’s yours.’ He said, ‘all I want you to do now is go home, write me a letter, apply for the job but don’t worry about it, it’s yours, I’m promising it to you. It’s yours,’ he said, ‘apply for it and I return it, the jobs yours and that’s it.’ He said, ‘you tell me what date you’ll be able to start.' So that was it.
BW: Brilliant.
CG: Went back to Sheffield, told Marge. Bloody hell. I couldn’t have, I couldn’t planned it like that.
BW: Yeah just landed lucky.
CG: Just happened like that. Just happened and I went back and in the month, went to the removal people and everything like that, got it all lined up and we came here on her birthday 24th of July.
BW: Wow.
CG: 1960 and when we came in I said, ‘here you are Marge. Birthday present [laugh]. Bloody hell. Honestly, the way it happened. Just like a great big bloody jigsaw falling into place, I got a job.
BW: Yeah.
CG: And everything.
BW: And so -
CG: Amazing.
BW: What was the local paper called here?
CG: Star. No. The Evening Gazette.
BW: The Evening Gazette.
CG: Yeah.
BW: And how long were them for on the prints. The printers.
CG: Oh I was there for 1960 until I retired in ‘84, 1984 yeah. At the time my wife had lost her mum and dad and I thought, ‘84 I was due to retire in ‘86 I think it was and there was a scheme on if you remember because people were out, wanted work or something that you could, you could retire on a full pension and if not it could be made up by the government. I did lose. So I took two years earlier so I could retired at 64 at ’84.
BW: Brilliant.
CG: Everything worked out. It’s funny how it worked out though.
BW: Yeah.
CG: I couldn’t have done it if I'd planned it by bloody blueprint.
BW: But that’s great that’s -
CG: We often spoke about that yeah.
BW: Yeah. Well that’s just what you need isn’t it?
CG: And when we went out the house we went to several. They were ruddy rubbish, you know, toilets in the kitchen, all that sort of thing and then we came up here, ‘oh great, Marge.’ Well that was it then.
BW: And you’ve been here ever since.
CG: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: How have you kept in touch with Bomber Command? How do you feel about the sort of commemorations?
CG: Well I belonged to the air crew ACRC, was it? Air crew.
BW: AC.
CG: You know, the club. Air crew club.
BW: Air crew association.
CG: And the bomber, Air Gunners Society. I used to have that. I belonged to that mainly but they went defunct. They must have done because I haven’t heard anything. Must be getting on I guess and that would be about it.
BW: How do you, how do you rate the sort of recent commemorations of Bomber Command effort looking back at it?
CG: Well I, I never kept in touch. I should have done. I would have like to have done when the aircrew thing went I thought well that must not be going then but I never got any, I never heard any, never had any gen, information about it. Only the air gunners I used to get a journal every, every couple of months. Kept in touch. And for a while we belonged to a club. Yeah we used to go, belong to the air crew club. Used to go along to the hotels on Blackpool every so often. I bought a ticket for a raffle and what did I buy, what did I win? A bloody big picture like that of a Lancaster. Bloody hellfire. It’s up in the spare room now on the wall. Oh dear.
BW: Are you, are you pleased that Bomber Command is being commemorated and remembered these days?
CG: Have I been to any? Oh no.
BW: Are you pleased that Bomber Command is being remembered these days?
CG: I’m sorry I didn’t get it again.
BW: Are you pleased that Bomber Command is being remembered these days?
CG: Oh yes. Oh definitely yes they should. Bomber leader Harris did a good job I think. Yeah, I know what people say but he was only working on orders from Mr Churchill and all that business because Churchill went to see the Russian leader if you, I don’t know whether you know and Russia he was telling Churchill about not doing something and Churchill said we’ll bomb this and bomb that which we did and came back and yet there was all that trouble over Dresden. All they had to do was call it an open city and they wouldn’t have got bombed would it? And we heard there was, read since that they were passing troops through there and there were POWs working there as well. So it wasn’t an open city as such but if they’d have called it an open city it would never have been bombed and Harris was only doing what he was told. Bomb these ruddy cities. I didn’t go on it anyway. I went -
BW: I was going to say you weren’t on that raid.
CG: I was on the other one. Chemnitz. It was close on nearby. There were two big ones that day. Chemnitz and Dresden but I was on the Chemnitz one. A long trip that if I remember.
BW: Have you been to the memorial at Green Park?
CG: No I haven’t yet, I’d like to go sometime but no. I don’t, I think. Yeah.
BW: But from your point of view you’re glad that Bomber Command is being recognised.
CG: Oh yeah blimey they should have been. Yeah. More so. You know what? Bomber Command. The chap in charge, Harris. He was the only number one leader of all the, of all of them that didn’t get recognised by Churchill and it was wrong that. It was absolutely wrong. What Harris did he was only carrying out orders.
BW: Have you had the opportunity to go to the memorial site that the Bomber Command Centre has begun at Lincoln? At Canwick Hill.
CG: Would I go?
BW: Have you been?
CG: Oh I haven’t. No.
BW: It was unveiled in October last year.
CG: Yeah it would be a great thing that. No. I’ve got, I’ve got two brothers down south. I don’t very often see them now but I can’t see properly and I can’t walk properly. You’re a, you’re a lag on somebody aren’t you when you go? Somebody having to look after you or push you or whatever.
BW: I know what you mean.
CG: No. I generally go, like last year I went down to the memorial in Poulton. Laid a wreath with another chap. We both did it together ‘cause he was in the army on D-Day landings and all that and he got the medal, Croix de Guerre whatever you call it. Yeah.
BW: Yeah because you’ve been awarded that yourself as well. You got the Croix de Guerre and that’s, that’s quite a high honour -
CG: Oh yeah.
BW: From France, you know. So very good. I think that that’s all the questions that I have for you.
CG: Well I haven’t minded. I don’t mind.
BW: So -
CG: Anything I answered, I’ve never answered, anybody answered me I said yes, so and so and that was it. I didn’t think it was going to be all this. I don’t think I would have -
BW: Well that’s alright.
CG: No it’s alright but yeah.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
CG: No that’s okay I don’t mind. It’s alright. It’s a great but you’re welcome.
BW: So we’ll, we’ll leave it there so thank you very much for again Flying Officer Green for your time and -
CG: Any time if you, yeah.
BW: Your memories for the Bomber Command Centre.
CG: Yeah.
BW: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Charles Frederick Green
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-29
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Julie Williams
Janet and Peter McGreevy
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:37:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGreenCF160329
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Frederick Green was born in Peckham, London, in 1921. On leaving school he began an apprenticeship with a printing company, acting part-time as a police courier, before becoming an Air Raid Precaution warden. He then volunteered for the Royal Air Force and was accepted for gunnery training in January 1941. He began at Number 2 Gunnery School at RAF Dalcross. He crewed up at 24 Operational Training Unit at RAF Honeybourne, joining a predominantly Canadian crew. After a time at 1664 Heavy Conversion Unit, he was posted to 429 Squadron at RAF Leeming. He began operations at the end of 1943 and completed thirty four operations with 429 Squadron, most to German targets. He was in the crew which had a famous mascot, a Pocahontas doll. After a period of leave, he joined 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal, acting as a mid under gunner in specially-adapted Lancasters. He took part in operations to support the D-Day landings and later in Operation Manna. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. After two tours, he performed ground crew duties at RAF Padgate. After the war he became a printer for a newspaper company in Sheffield. He discusses the matter of lucky charms and superstitions, as well as veterans’ feelings after the war.
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cheshire
England--London
England--Worcestershire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Kiel Canal
1664 HCU
24 OTU
429 Squadron
75 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
Air Raid Precautions
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
civil defence
coping mechanism
Distinguished Flying Cross
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Croft
RAF Dalcross
RAF Honeybourne
RAF Leeming
RAF Mepal
RAF Padgate
superstition
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/238/3383/PCooperS1501.1.jpg
2a23a039a4e935255b71c83868fe4af0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/238/3383/ACooperSF170913.1.mp3
f5ab974b220266502dd18f4c17ee7b44
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cooper, Sydney Foster
Sydney Foster Cooper
Sydney F Cooper
Sydney Cooper
Syd Cooper
S F Cooper
S Cooper
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. Two oral history interviews with Sydney Foster "Syd" Cooper (b. 1921, 1528331 Royal Air Force), photographs and other items.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Cooper and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-25
2015-10-28
2017-09-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cooper, SF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So this is Suzanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Syd Foster Cooper today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Syd’s home and it’s the 13th of September 2017. So, Syd do you want to tell me a little about life before the war?
SC: Well, I lived in Blackpool and Blackpool is a peculiar thing, I’ve worked on the Promenade, I’ve sold black puddings for threepence, with mustard on, and I’ve run errands, I’ve demonstrated yo-yos: anything for money. I was money mad. Run errands for people and that was my, that was my life, which I enjoyed and I used give everything to my mother, I never kept any money. But I really enjoyed it, but of course times were hard in those days, you know. People used, mill girls walking arm in arm singing the tunes. You see Trevor MacGoff, a friend of mine, we knew all the tunes when they came out you see, and we went past the singing rooms – there was about four singing rooms in Blackpool – they said, ‘hey do you know Shepherd of the Hills?’ ‘Yeah, aye.’ [Indecipherable] They said ‘can you sing it for us?’ And we’d sing it for ‘em and they’d say aye, they do! And these’d just come out! So they got us to sing, he and I, we’d be about twelve, or ten, and we sang it and we knew all the popular songs immediately they were published, you see. So we said eh, we’ve got some money here so we’d go to one singing room and say do you want any singing? Yeah, aye, and we’d sing a couple of songs, they’d give us tuppence, we’d go to another and do the same and that was anyway that was a way we earned money. Well of course the, we used to go to the air shows of course, at Squires Gate, and we, I don’t know, we joined it of course, there’s a war, I’m doing this, I’m doing that, I’m doing, and what they were going to do, you see, and some were going in the navy, I’m weren’t going in the navy, I didn’t fancy it – I couldn’t swim anyway - so I lost them during the war. Well I’m working for this, in the Air Force, I’ll go now and this, [whisper] see I’ve forgotten what they called it, it was 1521 BAT Flight, 1521 B A T and this B A T stand for, er, B A, I don’t know, anyway, they had curtains, had to fly by instruments, and one evening, this is just an isolated incident, one evening I was on night flying, would be about half past three in the morning, and an officer came up to me and said ‘where’s this so and so gone?’, I says, ‘he’s gone’, ‘how long’s he been gone’, ‘oh about fifteen minutes’. ‘Right’ - and the wind was ferocious [emphasis]. Of course Blackpool’s always windy, particularly the airport you see, and I’d got a big can of oil with me, and I was taking it to another part that required it, and I’m stood like this, and I was stood like this and he was saying ‘where’s so and so and what are you doing’ and ‘well, I’m finished in the short term’ and the oil was dripping out of the can. Not only was it dripping out of the can, the wind was taking it on to his trousers! [Laugh] Course you see I was only what, twenty and I got the wind up, so that was an incident, I never heard anything but I don’t know whether he ever knew where he got that oil from. Anyway, it was a nice place there and I’ll tell you an incident that is remarkable. There was an aircraft taking off, it had been raining a bit and the main planes were wet, wet, well the whole situation was wet, this was at Stradishall, I’ve just remembered, Stradishall in Suffolk, where the 214 Squadron or 138 Squadron, anyway, Bill come, said ‘I’m going up’, I said ‘are you going up?’, so he said ‘yeah, right’. So the Airspeed Oxford is hand started; you have to wind it up, you see. That’s on, you know, I don’t know whether you know aircraft at all, but on the nacelle, that’s where the engines, on the inside, you get what they call a dzus, that’s D Z U S, turn it a hundred and eighty degrees and flap comes up revealing place where you can put your starting handle. So I was doing this, this was on the port side. Anyway, I’m winding this, got it going, got the starboard going and said ‘you’re all right now’ and he throttled back, in the car, and pointing, so I looked and the flap had come up from where the starting handle goes in, enters. Oh Christ, so I go come back, you know, to lower your engine speed, you see, they’re not much, the, not automatic, someone at the front door, post, mail [pause] yeah, [door closing] so I tried you see, they couldn’t make the engine, no air coming, you see, because they weren’t variable propellers, they were just ordinary wooden propellers, so it was still a draught coming apart from the elements and so I tried to get up there. [Chuckle] I went up there and my feet come from under me - it was only a little to get to help you and anyway I stood right back until my calves were touching the leading edge of the tail plane and I ran right and I got to the top and I just get at the top and my bloody feet come from under me, over the top I went and the engines are running and I fell on the ground. There’s only a little distance between the rotating propellers and the leading edge, but anyway I was all right, and he was like this - the pilot - like that with his eyes, but I’ll never forget that, I’ll never forget that. I don’t think he will either! Anyway so, I left there, what did I do? Oh yeah. [Pause] Right, think it, trying to think what I, where I went after that. Oh, I was, that’s at Stradishall, righto, so I thought right I’m not stopping here, I’d gone to the top of me tree, so I’m going in for a flight engineer, that’ll be my bloody thing. So I went in to be a flight engineer; flight engineer I became, and I did pretty well on it and er, [whisper] and it was something new you see, there were very few flight engineers and it was the, went, had to go somewhere for stock, for stores procedure and all sorts of things that really wouldn’t be there, but anyway, we left there and went to er, to Cardiff and went to a place, Brays in Wales, and it's the Number 1 Gunnery School in Wales, and we had to, on an air gunner’s course. We arrived at Pembrey and went to, there’s a place, I don’t know the town but it was locally known by the blokes as Slash, we went there and had a few drinks and went in, next morning we paraded. ‘Well gentlemen you know this is going to be a very concentrated course, you’ve got to be full gunners when you leave here and it will last about eight to ten days. We’ve got a cinema here but there’s just one thing that well, you won’t be pleasant about and that is that you’re not allowed out, you cannot go out of the airport at all’ [emphasis]. So I said, so we started there about nine o’clock in the morning and sometimes we were still doing something at nine o’clock at night, and going on the beach and firing, firing different guns. See we had, we did really a condensed air gunner’s course, which we weren’t too bloomin’ happy. So, anyway we left there, oh, and my memory, we had to pass a course of aircraft identification, you see, because you don’t want to shoot anyone that’s your friend, [chuckle] and some aircraft are quite similar to the British aircraft and little bits of things that you recognise, so, I was bad on them so the chap said ‘well I’m going to cough every time it’s English, so come on’ [cough] English, friend, friend. Anyway we passed there and we came out and we went, went on the train and ended up in Yorkshire, that’s right. No, no, no, we didn’t, no, we went to er, there used to be, is there, huge place, Christ. We got off and marched up to this airport in Wales, and of course it was the training ground for flight engineers, and we marched in and anyway, in the morning we were got together and we were dictated which we were going to be: Lancaster, Halifax or, the English one, the big one, yeah, or Stirlings, and we didn’t have any option, we were told, and I was going on them. Anyway, that was fair enough and I did very well on that, I think. And so we were nominated, we were then flight engineers, right, see, and people were busy sewing sergeant’s stripes on and brevets; brevets were scarce was the flight engineers, I don’t think they got to making many of them but however we, whatever we would do and we went our different ways and we arrived in Yorkshire, and I can’t remember the name of the airport but it was a Con Unit - that’s a Conversion Unit - and along came some people we were just learners for the flight engineer’s point of view we knew all about the aircraft, or at least we thought we did, well we did, we came in, and it was some Canadians and they’d been on Wellingtons which only have a crew of five, now they need a crew of seven: an extra gunner and a flight engineer. And they did something which I think was very, very good, in as much as we went up with various people, you know, and we were, they were watching us do the job and that, you see, and they were converting from Wellingtons to the big aircraft. Well, we’d been there about five days and a chap came up to me - I knew him because I’d been flying with him – and he said ‘Syd’, he says, ‘I don’t know how you’re going to take this’ he says, ‘but we’ve been watching different people that we’ve met, people that with whom we’ve flown and it’s been unanimous: we want you to be our flight engineer.’ Well, [indecipherable] Christ, you know, yeah, and so I became their flight engineer. We’re there, we went up one day, we come down and we crashed, not badly, just undercarriage come away, and went to the doctor’s, went to the hospital straight away, nothing wrong with us so we got in, got up, went up in another aeroplane, anyway we did our Con Unit business there and I was directed to go to, well the number that were there, went to Leeming, Leeming in Yorkshire, and they were forming, then, 6 Group, because they hadn’t got their own Air Force on then, and so we were, 427 Squadron, was the first of the 6 Group, Canadians, and I flew with them. Well, and we had some fun, fun there. The first time we went I was a busy bee. You see you can have nothing to do but you can make yourself work, when you’re flying, you go and say how do to somebody and this that and the other, and that’s quite all right. Well, on the, I used to stand up on take off and I, the wheels, there is a signal in, there’s a lever inside the cockpit that you lift up and the undercarriage will come up, but it's governed that it must be airborne, [laugh] but I could put my finger in and lift it, lift it and bring the undercarriage up, but it shouldn’t be. Well I used to stand to his right hand doings, and quite often in the speed, you got chatter, chatter, and you put them fully forward for maximum take off weight but the vibration and chatter they would start travelling back and you had to hold them together, or sometimes I’d get up there and I’d hold them together, hold them by the fingers there and he’s again this, because we were taking over the Great North Road, and rumour had it, I don’t know [emphasis] but rumour had it that they stopped large vehicles going, taking off, passing there while we were using that runway. While, one occasion I’m there, we wore goggles in case you’ve got a window closed, open, well he, the pilot, Hank, would hold the control column fully, er, driving that, and watching the doings, don’t chatter, hah, he used to put his thumb up, right, okay, up with the bloody undercarriage straight away you see, because you gather speed because they had, they reckoned it was as bad as thirty degrees of flap, undercarriage down, anyway and I pulled them up. Well we’d done this several times like that he goes like that, I goes oh, oh with the bloody undercarriage you see. Well then, I felt sure it went like that, and I looked up, and it wasn’t that, it was because his goggles had fallen over his eyes [laugh] and to this day now, there’s only me knows that I brought the undercarriage up too early! Anyway, this was just the first trip of which I’ll tell you about, and it was a place called Bochum, but anyway, everything went okay and bloody navigator said to me ‘what you doing Syd?’, I said ‘I’m just having a look out’, so he says ‘come here, that’s where we’re going.’ [laughs] [indecipherable] I thought, well bloody hell. Anyway I was really excited and I used to do a lot of work and run backwards and forwards and I used to stand up see if I could see anything you know and help in that respect. It really took it out of me because, I don’t know why, ah well when we disembarked on arrival back to town, back to home, we were allocated to certain tables and we were talked to by the, by intelligence officers and making notes and what was it like, so and so, did you see this, you see, I suppose and then they’d compare them with others, and where’s he? Oh, and you could have coffee and rum – I was asleep on the floor! So, it had took something out of me. Anyway, that was it and we had a, quite a good doings. You see, now, the trouble is, I get embarrassed by your novels and people that write books and stories about Bomber Command and this that and the other because a lot of it’s not true, and you know, like they say, ‘oh Commander to tail end Charlie, are you there, Ned?’ [Laugh] I said all that rubbish ‘cause they don’t do that, no rank on the aircraft. The pilot, Henry, that was his surname, Henry, Henry was a sergeant, I was a sergeant, bomb aimer was a sergeant – he was Canadian - mid upper was English, he was a sergeant and the tail gunner was a flight sergeant, but however, and we’re on one occasion we were having trouble, we’d been what they called coned when you get a lot of searchlights on you at the same time and by jove it’s light and of course, I don’t understand artillery, but there’s some means that they can do something to the guns where the explosion takes, occurs, on a predetermined altitude. Well when there’s a do you go in waves, you see, well we know that eighteen thousand, they set the guns to fire at eighteen, but you see you get a wave and you might be going in at twenty thousand feet, you see, well the Germans – height twenty thousand feet, get ‘em up, but before the guns, they’d, twenty have gone over and someone’s come and they’re flying at sixteen thousand feet and they’ve got to readjust the guns and that’s the idea and in consequence you have to be on, over the target on time [emphasis] or otherwise you would be dropping bombs on your fellows or they’d be having a go at you! So it was very essential that you were there on time. Well, we’d had a do and we’d been evading, evading artillery and searchlights, successfully, and obviously we weren’t on course and he called me, ‘Syd, here, come here, what do you reckon that is?’ So I just got just across, you know, from here to that table, so I went, I says ‘it’s a lake, innit.’ So he says ‘yeah, what is it? Do you reckon it’s so and so so and so?’ I says, ‘Christ,’ I says, ‘I don’t know’, I says ‘I’m not geography, I don’t know.’ He says ‘I reckon it is.’ Well of course, I hadn’t thought, but you see you cannot navigate until you know where you are to start, you see, and of course when you have a few minutes of diving and climbing and that, of course you don’t, you’re not on course. Anyway we had to, we hadn’t been over the target, but anyway we did our job and came away and he managed to calculate where we’d been and he did a fine job, and that was it, but I’ll never forget that day. Deviating somewhat, I’ll tell you this: this is surprising. Well no, it’s a shame really, [cough] my wife and I, not at the airport, at home - this is after the war - and we went to a place and we were having a lunch and she says ‘I’ll go and get, I don’t know what I want, I’ll see what I want’, so I said, so I sat in a chair, I said I’ve got two chairs, you see, and I was guarding those and how you look around and up at the other end of the restaurant room, I saw a man, biggish chap, and he’d got the diabolical table manners, he appeared to me, and I’d seen that but I felt that I wanted to have another look and I kept looking. Anyway, this feller stands up and he comes wobbling down to me, I thought now I’m for it, you know, I mean I was eight stone wet through and he was about sixteen stone and I thought well we’re in for it! He says ‘do you know me?’ I said to him, ‘well I thought I did’. He says ‘only you was looking.’ I says ‘I know I was, I thought I knew you.’ He says: ‘well?’ I says ‘well I don’t know you.’ So he says ‘oh’, he says ‘I wondered why you kept looking up and I were getting a bit annoyed’ or embarrassed. ‘Oh’, he says, ‘that’s a Bomber Command badge in your doings’, so I says ‘yes’. He says ‘are you in the Air Force?’ I says ‘I was’, ‘oh’ he says ‘yeah, oh right!’ And of course we were buddies then. We were buddies then. So he says ‘where you go? I said ‘I go to the Cheshire Aircrew Association’ so he says ‘do yer?’ He says ‘it’s supposed to be a bit smooth there.’ So he says ‘aye, well I go to Barton, you see, that’s at the aerodrome’, I said ‘do yer?’, so he says ‘I’d like you to come’, he said ‘and you’ll like it and you’ll probably want to start coming with us.’ So I said - you see well he hadn’t mentioned anything about me looking at him - so he says well, I forget, he said ‘I’m known there, everybody knows me there’, you see, you see, he says me name’s. I said ‘what is your name?’ he says Morgan, he says, ‘better still, they call me No Fingers Morgan.’ I says pardon, No Fingers Morgan that’s the reason why he couldn’t manipulate his eating, so he says ‘they all know me: No Fingers Morgan.’ So I says okay and he was one of the New Zealander, the New Zealander surgeon that looked after the RAF and he’d been there and seen him and his hands finished there. So I says ‘Christ’ I says, ‘did you jump?, I didn’t know that till then, so did you fall out?’ So he says no. I thought he’d parachuted you see, and you could get frostbite, so he says no, I went there, and he was the flight engineer to see the damage and the door was just hanging on the hinges this that and the other, and of course he’d did what he had no right to do: he’d gone without oxygen, because we used to carry oxygen with us. That was, I’ll never forget that. But after a time they’d finished their operations because they’d all been on Wellingtons, they left there and I, now where did I bloody go then? I left there and oh, and er, oh, and oh, er, I’d been, well I went direct from there, I think I went direct from there to 514. Oh yeah, I went there to 514.
SP: So you went from Halifaxes at Leeming, you’re flying Halifaxes, to 514.
SC: Yes, yes. Now, I’d had an option to say would I like to be an engineer, I says I am a bloody engineer! So she says but would you like to do all the lot, so I says yeah, yeah. So I was an engineer, but I wasn’t sergeant, but that to come. Well I went to, oh, I went to Foulsham, that’s F O U L S H A M: pronounced wrong and spelt right, it was foul, terrible! Anyway we went there but 514 hadn’t started, they didn’t have an aeroplane. I think they had one or two, maybe, and they were doing what they call acceptance, you see you just don’t have aeroplane and go flying, you check everything’s on right you see. And they were just forming in Foulsham and they had, just prior to them forming this, but there would be [muttering] er, anyway, Foulsham and getting parts together and one thing and another, and I worked there on the aircraft, then, we’d only been there about maybe a month and we moved to Waterbeach. Well, who should be, no, I was a sergeant when I went there, anyway, it don’t matter, but chap come, Orderly Sergeant, Giles, him that I knew at the other place, and Jones, they were there, but they had to gather people from anywhere to form because, you see that shows you, those are just engineers, no, that picture there, the R and I – Repair and Inspection - he was a marvel was, that’s him there, he was just my size him, Squadron Leader, and well that shows, all these were associated with the maintenance of the aircraft.
SP: So what you’re showing me is a plane with about-
SC: Pardon?
SP: So you’re showing me a plane that’s got crew the width of the plane and about seven deep, so there’s a lot of people on there, so.
SC: Well, you can have the photograph if you want.
SP: We’ll photograph it and put it with the recordings, there’ll be a photograph of this, but we’re talking about the Technical Wing, commanded by Squadron Leader.
SC: That’s him. Jim Healey, yeah.
SP: Jim Healey, and this was at Waterbeach.
SC: He was a smashing, you see, and they were running short of engineers who could do the job, you see. I don’t know whether they blame the schools or not, but it was just the job. So I went there as an engineer and they didn’t have Halifaxes, they had Lancasters, and I never had anything to do with the, well you have to have aircraft as they come. Some have radial engines, some have in line engines, they don’t say pop ‘em on, we’re short of an in line, we’re not going to bother until we can get one, you know, so radial like a Hercules they’re a different thing, I never had much to do with them. Anyway, and Giles there, Giles in’t it, fancy seeing you anyway. Now, you see I’m just interrupting meself now, and there is too [emphasis] much emphasis laid on aircrew at the expense of groundcrew. Now Giles, we used to call him Farmer Giles, miserable bugger he was, but I got on well with him, and he didn’t drink, he didn’t smoke and he never did but work and he was a marvellous worker, sergeant, and he come and he’d lost an eye, I don’t know what happened, but in the meantime of me going other place he lost an eye, and him, he got on his knees to let him still join, keep the Air Force, and he stayed until he was chucked out and he’d only got one eye. I must tell you this before I go any further, well eyes, in those days went to Moorfields which is supposed to be the epitome of good eye people in London: Moorfields. He went to, sent him to Moorfields and they measured it or whatever they do, and he had that eye, but of course in those days they were glass eyes, plastic hadn’t got, I’m going forward, well I’ll leave that there, and he was a good worker was Giles, so that was fair enough. Of course I got promoted to corporal, I got promoted to sergeant you see, so that suited me, suited Giles and everyone, and I would say this, I don’t know why, but I was the only person ever [emphasis], as far as I know [sound of steps then drawer opening and cutlery] who they had a whip round for their marriage and they bought me cutlery and that, and Giles organised it and I’d never come across him before.
SP: And you’ve still got that one today – you’re just showing me the cutlery.
SC: And that was very, very, I was grateful of that, not because of the doings, anyway, I had that. Anyway, we went and we had our, oh, and bloody hell, 19, we went there in ’94. We left there and went to another station.
SP: 1944.
SC: And that was, they’d gone, coming to block one night, well in later days bleedin’, bloody Waterbeach, there’s limited flying and that, they says right, you’re doing, looking at, assessing equipment, so because we didn’t need it any more, finished, 514 wasn’t flying no more and you know. Service, you had different coloured labels and I had to sign them that: fit for reissue, beyond repair and this that and the other. Anyway, so we goes to this bloody place and there’s a Squadron Leader Knight was in charge and he says, ‘are you Cooper?’ I said yeah, he said ‘right, I’ve got a job for you’, he said. I said ‘bloody hell what’s that?’ See ‘cause they’d finished, and he’d just men there, so he says ‘we’re packing up and you can do that and you’ll be at hangar number three.’ So anyway that went by and Christmas time, no I’m going back a year because they had an explosion at Christmas in C Flight did 514, and there was about eleven killed, at Christmas time, but I was away on leave at the time so I missed that.
SP: Do you know actually happened?
SC: Pardon?
SP: Do you know what caused it?
SC: Well a bomb came off, bomb, I don’t, well you see, you never know you see, because they were loading bombs on and anyone that has an idea weren’t there! They were killed.
SP: So this was as they were loading the loading bombs for an operation.
SC: Yeah, I think there was about seventeen killed. But anyway, that was very sad. Anyway, where the hell was I? I got posted from there to there, I was there, I was only there two days and going there, and I can’t remember the place but it was a nice, nice place to go but I never went. They called me in says we’ve got a job for you, I says oh, so I said ‘where is it?’ He said, oh, previous to this, the, a Flight Lieutenant Wand tried to get me to go to this Spain, and Healey thought the world of me, I don’t know why, then he says, called for me, Squadron Leader, so he says ‘look do you know, would you like to go to Italy?’ I says ‘Italy?’ So he says yeah, he says ‘Wand’s put you to Italy’, he said ‘you don’t want to go there, there’s bloody mosquitos and that, do you still want to go?’ so I says no, so he says, ‘right, you’re off.’ Anyway, of course they all caught up with me, Healey goes, posted off somewhere else ‘cause this man he hadn’t got a job and then come and said ‘oh we’ve got a job for you – Italy.’ I says ‘Italy? But the war’s over’, so I says ‘well how come’, so he said ‘oh you’ll see. Anyway, you’re going to 1 or 2 LSU’, that’s Lancaster Servicing Units in Italy. So, bloody hell, so I went to Italy and unbeknownst to lots of people, I venture to suggest, is that there was a chance of a war breaking out between Yugoslavia and Italy over, it’s not called Siles, what they call it, the big city up north? I’ll think of it later, over this city. It had gone from one to another over the years and of course Italy had recently transferred their [cough] favours to England rather than Germany you see, so right. But of course you never get a hundred percent, yes there was still, for reasons best known to themselves, sooner be in with the Germans, but anyway, so I’m on my bloody way to Germany, to Italy. It was good in Italy, we did a lot there. The services had took the palace – apparently there used to be a king of Italy, king of this palace - you could go there and have a shower or something like that, press your suit for you or something, and in Sorrento, have you been to Italy? Sorrento, well the main hotel in the square, near where the YMCA was, they took that over as well so we could go there, I went there about three times for the weekend, free, and of course we could go over to er, Capri, Capri they had a Capri backwards and forwards. Well, I’ll come to that later. Anyway, Brown, who was a bit up, I mean I remember his telephone number, Weston 1368, plenty of money, I thought I’d got them in here [paper rustling].
SP: You went to the opera, yeah.
SC: And he made these for us, for, see these are all things that I’ve seen. They’re in English.
SP: So you’re showing me all the programmes 1945 to ‘46.
SC: Yeah, I mean with them being Italian, the one thing, Italian talk, all the time and you don’t know what’s going on, but that helps you.
SP: Yeah. Details for the British Military Authorities of Naples, all transcribed, the actual operas of La Boheme, Rigoletto, and you got invited to all of these.
SC: Well we went regularly, well we had to pay, but this chap was familiar with, something a bit highbrow. Brown they called him; he had a beautiful case like that, with seven razors in it, he says, ‘Oh no, I’ll use Wednesday today’, [chuckle] but he was nice chap. They won’t be interested in those, would they?
SP: I’ll photograph them so they’re with, I’ll photograph one of them so we’ve got it with it.
SC: Oh right. But it’s quite a thing isn’t it.
SP: It is, yeah.
SC: And we were at the piano which is on the first floor which is next to the Royal Box. You couldn’t have the Royal Box but we’d be one side or the other side. Of course we had to pay, and I thought perhaps that might, you might want that.
SP: So you’re showing me here your operational records for all of 514 Squadron, again we’ll put these, I’ll photograph this for the Archives and leave everything with you and take the photograph.
SC: I thought perhaps that was of some interest, the Opera House.
SP: Yeah, very much so. So obviously, after your time in Italy did you then return to England?
SC: Yeah. Well, I went backwards and forwards. It was hard work, but these bombers came in to let these, look we know what’s going on, but it was never published. I’ve never come across anyone that knows. There was between eight and twelve bombers, every day [emphasis] went there, somewhere, there to Bari, Bari’s on the Adriatic, that’s LS2, LSU2, on the Adriatic coast, Bari, B A R I. Funny part was, that railway line crossed the landing, coming in across the landing coming in, that’s aircraft there, but I enjoyed it but it put me back so I didn’t get released, but there’s no medal for that, no medal for that, no, not to this day there isn’t, because lots of people don’t know that it existed. I mean and they was nine months, backwards and forwards, these bombers, just to let them know that we were a force to be contended with, still, in spite of the war finishing; that’s what we heard. Well, I’ll just tell you this, it was there you never bothered about nothing, saluting or anything there. [Chuckle] Came up hey, there was going to be a parade. Parade! A parade, [emphasis] no bloody Parade! Oh aye there is, there’s a parade. Now, a strike had broke out in Far East and they thought it was coming right through, so they’d block it there and then. I’ll never forget, so we just stood there, you know, for this doings and bloody Wing Commander, er Squadron Leader Wright came out and said, you know, he knew about it, I suppose they had advised the Station Commander and he came and a bloke said there can’t be a strike, and Lapthorne, Lapthorne was the MT, Motor Transport, in charge. I suppose he was a Flight Lieutenant or sommat, but he was a rough ‘un, so bloke says there’s something going on cause Lapthorne’s had a bloody haircut! [Laughter] So anyway, that’s what happened and it didn’t develop. But we had a good time in Italy really, and that, but I mean lots of people decided to go home. Spent the first time, the first Christmas in Italy and there was going, there was something non, non, I forget the name they gave to it, you’re not to associate with Germans, English people, and of course it went with the staff. Well on this place we had what used to be a very big olive grove and we turned it into an RAF camp. We had German prisoners of war and - poor souls - they’d gone out the desert and they’d got shorts on, and cotton tops, and this was Christmas 19, Christmas 1965.
SP: ’45.
SC: Christmas 1965.
SP: ’45, yeah.
SP: Yeah. ’45 and so we said, and some of them, and some of them were nasty people because they belonged to German, Hitler Youth, and waiters in the sergeant’s ess, what bloke can do, can’t give them jobs. Anyway we held a little, I think I’ve seen a bloody picture short time ago of the, [drawer opening] oh that’s it, that’s behind the bar at, it’s the sergeants mess, but I’ve got one of the mess somewhere, and the waiters, and we held a little meeting, there was only about fourteen of us, senior NCOs, and said yeah but they’re bloody Germans, what do we do with them? They were in tents [emphasis] and this is Christmas and snowing. Yeah, oh Christ, it was cold. There was a fellow from Glossop, a sergeant, and he says, excuse me, you know, we were chatting amongst ourselves, what can we do you know, chatting amongst ourselves, what can we do, and this that and the other, we can’t talk, we can’t have nowt to do with ‘em, and he got the bloody real people moaning, because we wanted them to enjoy Christmas as we did - to a lesser extent - and anyway he says, the quiet bloody, this chap in from Glossop, the sergeant, he says ‘from now on we’ll call you’ -what bloody hell did they call him? Ferodo, - he says ‘your bloody behaviour would stop a bloody eight ton truck’, you know, Ferodo, the bloody battery works out there. Anyway, they enjoyed themselves to some extent. I used to walk to work, about from here maybe to the main road, which was quite way, taking chocolates for kids and sweets and they’d come and meet you on the way down. But anyway I come up, got, it closed. Oh Christ, we came up on the train, oh Jesus, through the Apennines and through Austria, took us about six or seven days to get home, on the trains! Bridges broken down and one thing and another. [Laugh] Senior NCOs, there was six to each carriage, so how the hell we’re going to bloody sleep? I says don’t know. We’d got all our clobber with us, he says he’s at it again, he’s going to organise this, be nothing when he’s bloody finished! So I says ‘right, seats across, one on each. One on the floor between the two seats, on the floor. Right’, I says, ‘and two of us on the luggage rack’, you see, luggage rack each. So says, ‘oh right, we’ll put on there now’, says there’s bloody seven, ‘there’s six of us’, ‘oh yeah’, I says, ‘I’ll make a bloody hammock!’ So I got some rope off the kit bags and this that and the other, emptied hammock, put it on the door, that like that and I was up swinging in this and it pulled the bloody door off the hinges! So I landed on him on the bottom! But anyway, you know, we had some really good times, I mean just didn’t, you see we, of course you can’t put it down he was with me, and he and I a very short, very [emphasis] short of people like us, not because it was us, but engineers and that, and someone had let ‘em go, you know, released, and I was, and both of us were sent, well I didn’t know, I was at Rugby station and he turned up. I says where you going and he says so and so, I says so am I! So anyway we’d gone to this here squadron, it was No 1, No 1 Advanced, it was letters, headlines, No 1 Advanced Flying Training School, so he and I were there.
SP: Who was with you?
SC: Well, he was with us in Italy. But I meet him, I met him on the platform.
SP: What was his name?
SC: Pardon?
SP: What was his name?
SC: Don’t know, he comes from Darlington, Ginger he was known as, he comes from Darlington. We goes there and we arrive there and there were Harvards, you’ve heard of Harvards, haven’t you, well they’re American. But of course, I mean they had American single bank bloody radials, made no difference to us. We got there and they was waiting, and it was said [emphasis] that one of the, the engineer, who I relieved, he’d been a Japanese prisoner of war! But he said right, I’m off and buggered off. Anyway I was in charge, he was in, and Ginger was in charge and there should have been about, there should have been a Warrant Officer, we’ll say two, four, four, er, sergeants and four flight sergeants with a crown over the top and four ordinary sergeants like we were, him and me, but that’s all there was, only him and me. Anyway, I must tell you this, although perhaps you won’t do it, but in the Air Force lots of people, you go on your own somewhere, you know, they needed so and so to go, right. Well you have an Arrival Form to have filled, with the various departments. Likewise, when you leave the station you have a Departure Form of which you must have endorsed for every place: doctor, dentist, fire brigade, gas, you had to have gas, and sergeants mess and so on and so on, so you can’t walk away with stuff. Well you see, of course if you’re going away maybe you want to, can’t get away quick enough, but [emphasis] to arrive is a different kettle of fish. We thought oh Christ, it’s going to be murder, it’s going to be bloody murder here, [cough] so we get this thing this thing, it’s about that size, got to go [laugh] and this that and the other. So, course when you arrive there you see, I mean I’d come a sweat then, I know what was going, a sergeant, you know, but I’d been there six years, and you live and learn, so course there’s this list and you go and get them to sign that you’ve reported, you see. Course the first one, where do we go? Pay Accounts, so you get bloody paid, second place you go: sergeants mess you want to get your head down you know, and all that. You see. Where’s the last? The last is where you’re going to work you see, so you go there. [Chuckle] So anyway, and [muttering] and we went there, I noticed, now I can’t remember his name and I know you wouldn’t be able to find it, it was a shame, but he was a Wing Commander over the engineering, Wing Commander White, just one syllable his name, but it’ll come some time, anyway [laughter] we goes to the, goes there, well I’d had to come, you know, polish your boots, extra [rubbing sound] buttons, you know and this that and the other. Anyway, knocks at the door. Well it’s a funny thing, but from the engineering point, senior NCOs, I mean because a lot of the officers knew nothing about the bloody job and they relied on you, you see, you usually knock on the door and open it, and say only a few minutes, er, girl will come, you know, secretary will come and let you in, so you while, so obviously, you see, so we gets up there, knocks on this, bloody Wing Commander that must have come across, right, knocks at the door, no, knocks at the door, no. So [laugh] Ginger says ‘there’s nobody in, bloody hell, come on, let’s go to the mess.’ I says ‘there is somebody in.’ He says ‘how the bloody hell do you know?’ I says ‘I can hear ‘em writing’, biros hadn’t been invented, I could hear [scraping sound], and course I went like this. I says ‘there’s somebody in there, I says, ‘I can hear them writing’, so knocks on the door, opens the door and there’s this fellow sat at the desk, looks up, carries on, so goes in. Ginger, there’s somebody, I say told you. So we goes in, so he says ‘did you hear me say come in sergeant?’ so I says no sir. He says [laugh] ‘well, eff off, get out!’ Ginge says ‘No, I didn’t hear you either’, says ‘well you can eff off and get out.’ So went outside then he come out and girl come and says Wing Commander so and so would like to see you. So we goes in and he was smart as paint. Oh, you couldn’t, and I would guess him to be at least fifty odd, fifty five, Wing Commander. He says well, he says, you’ve got a lot of work to do, and this that and the other, you see, bloody hell, I was, so I yes I understand that, he said do you know Harvards he says. No, I said, but I know the bloody engine. Oh right, so he goes there. I’ll tell you this, out of it, he’s walking round, and he’s got a, he was an officer, with a mil board to write down anything he tells him. So he comes to me, says Cooper, always called me bloody Cooper, Cooper he says, right yeah, and he got this feller, this officer, and he was knocking on as well, so he says ‘‘scuse me sir, ‘scuse me’ - I don’t know his name – ‘but what do you want Johnson?’ He says ‘you’ve got some white chalk on your trousers.’ So he looks this, imagine he’s tall, he’s about six foot two, and he looks this: ‘white, yes, chalk, you don’t bloody know’, he said, and he dusted it off, and anyway, he said, ‘you were right, it is bloody chalk.’ I thought, Christ, work with him. Anyway I know on one occasion he come there and said how are things going, oh they’re all right, and he knew everything that went on, so he says so and so and so and so, he says not working on this? I says no, I says it’s only just come in. It hasn’t, he says, I saw it yesterday, oh Christ! But anyway, he was always, and he’d shout full length of the doings for me, you know, are you there and that. Anyway, I can’t remember how much, but I had a sum of money offered if I’d stay on, it was about four hundred pound if I’d join, but of course I mean I was married, I had no home to go to, she was in with the mother in law and all that, so you know I don’t like going, but I enjoyed it really, I was you know, some days, important, aye. Well if you broke anything you see, anything like a drill, you had to take the shank, but the shank, not the twisted part, and give it them you see or otherwise you could take the other part next and get two! [Chuckle] Bloody Giles, he says to the doctor, ‘I don’t suppose it’s any much point in the stores’, so he says ‘why, what’s wrong Giles?’ He says ‘I dropped me eye’, dropped it. He says ‘you what?’ He says ‘me eye.’ His false eye, he’d dropped it on the floor: smashed to bits. So he said ‘I didn’t know you’d have to bring the bloody bits for an eye!’ So anyway they did, they sent him to Med, well you just can’t buy an eye. Now this is a bit embarrassing: [laugh] we was going on the bloody train, this is at Waterbeach, we were going to London. I was going to see my wife to come but, and he was going to Moorfields for another eye, well you just can’t order one, you know, it’s really. So imagine that’s the [paper rustling] carriage, goes that way. There was a lady there and a lady there, and they looked matronly, if that’s the right thing, well Giles gets in and gets there and I get there but, separate spaces, and right, off it’s going, so he’s going to Moorfields and I’m going to Welwyn Garden City over the, [laugh] and hustle and bustle, a man come in, big man, big man about fifty, fifty something, sits between me and that woman over there and [blowing sound], so opens his attaché case and gets papers, drops ‘em [banging on paper] thought we’re going to have a bloody good time then. [Cough] Anyway, it was obvious to me he wanted to go to the bloody toilet. So I, he, Giles, never told him, but anyway, he goes to the toilet, and he goes to the toilet through the bloody window of the, as the train’s going along. People won’t believe this but it’s true as true, and he come back, you see, dead smart he was, mac and bowler hat and this attaché case, and says er: ‘Well ladies and gentlemen, ladies, you must, I must apologise, what else can you do,’ he said, ‘and you too gentlemen’ he says, ‘but I wouldn’t burst my bladder if I was dining with the Queen of England!’ [Laugh] Bloody hell, people will not [emphasis] believe that! Now I used to be able to get hold of Giles. Giles lived till he was about ninety seven! I used to go to his house to see him in the Lakes. Now Jones lived in Birmingham, it’s really sad you see, and it’s coming to lots of people, could be me if I’m not careful, as he had to go into a home, he came from Wigan. I knew his son and he’s gone, but I didn’t know where he’d gone or anything and Wigan’s a big place really, and so I phoned his son up, so he said, well he said, leave it, I won’t tell you over the phone, call and I’ll give you, I’ll write it for you, letters, but he says but I must warn you, he says, he does a lot of sleeping and I think it is, I said to him across road, says, I mean if I’m here and this that and the other, there’s a, so that was it. So I went with British Airways for twenty eight years and then of course I got a job as a clerk and here I am, fed up! [Laugh]
SP: And you worked quite a long time didn’t you? Was it, what age did you retire from your clerking?
SC: Well I wanted to go till I was ninety but I was taken ill when I was ninety, eighty nine, eighty nine and I had to be brought home three weeks running, but it’s.
SP: So you worked as a clerk until you were eighty nine. That’s fantastic!
SC: Yeah, I used to do everything at home, but I can’t do a thing, can’t even go up the loft now. But it’s very, very upsetting really, you know, I mean to say, as I said to Albert across the road, I said we are not living, we’re just existing, till you know, till the final day. See I won’t go in a home.
SP: I think Syd, you’ve done remarkably well to work until you’re eighty nine and you’ve got a fantastic home so I’d just like to thank you on behalf of International Bomber Command Centre for your time today and all the stories that you’ve told us.
SC: Do you think they’ll accept the manner which we’ve done it?
SP: Absolutely, you’ve just told us exactly your story and that’s what we’re after at the International Bomber Command Centre, so thank you.
SC: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ACooperSF170913, PCooperS1501
Title
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Interview with Syd Cooper. Two
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:14:46 audio recording
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-13
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney Cooper was born in Blackpool and speaks about his early life there. He joined the Royal Air Force in 1941. He first served as an engine fitter in Fighter Command before remustering as aircrew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 427 Squadron from RAF Leeming. He later served as ground crew with 514 Squadron. On leaving the Air Force in 1946 he worked for Standard Telephones and British Airways. Syd finally retired at eighty nine.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Blackpool
Italy--Bari
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
427 Squadron
514 Squadron
aircrew
entertainment
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Harvard
Lancaster
military living conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
Oxford
RAF Foulsham
RAF Leeming
RAF Stradishall
RAF Waterbeach
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/238/3382/PCooperS1501.2.jpg
2a23a039a4e935255b71c83868fe4af0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/238/3382/ACooperS151027.1.mp3
743d46ca47820faff3930564f5cdd69e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cooper, Sydney Foster
Sydney Foster Cooper
Sydney F Cooper
Sydney Cooper
Syd Cooper
S F Cooper
S Cooper
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. Two oral history interviews with Sydney Foster "Syd" Cooper (b. 1921, 1528331 Royal Air Force), photographs and other items.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Cooper and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-25
2015-10-28
2017-09-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cooper, SF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: This is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre. I am with Sidney Cooper at his home in Pointon near Manchester and it is the 27th of October. Sid, if you can just tell me a little bit where you were born and ‒.
SC: I was born in Blackpool.
GR: Born in Blackpool.
SC: Born in Blackpool 15th‒, 15th of October I921. I’ve always been a worker. I started work when I was ten. We used to go in singing halls. And in those days people used to walk down the prom singing away, you know, mill girls and that. And they come to us and said, ‘Hey, you lads, do you know “When the love birds leave their nest?”’ So I says, ‘Yeah, we know that’. So they said, ‘Can you sing it for us?’ So me and Metcalf (pal of mine) we sang it. Yeah, right. ‘Can you stand there?’ ‘Yes’. People walking by, looked in, seen those kids singing and after we’d got a few people there we’d buzz off. They’d give us tuppence and then we’d go to another one, and we did that.
GR: And that was at ten years old.
SC: Oh yeah, I’ve done all sorts of ‒. I’ve sold black puddings on Blackpool Prom for threepence apiece and gone to Chester, run errands for stallholders and this that and other. It was a past time of mine and er, I did that oh ‘til I was fourteen.
GR: Brothers and sisters?
SC: Brothers and sisters, yes. I had two sisters and ‒, two sisters and four boys, and our Jack ‒, he’s here somewhere, here he is, there’s me brother. He joined ‒, he joined, the bloody Fleet Air Arm.
GR: Was you the oldest or youngest?
SC: I’m the eldest boy.
GR: You’re the eldest boy, yeah.
SC: He’s three years younger than me or two years younger than me. He went in the Fleet Air Arm.
GR: He went in the Fleet Air Arm. So that was in Blackpool?
SC: So I tried to get in the Air Force when I was about twelve or fourteen and wrote to them and they sent me a form back to fill in. I filled it in to the best of my abilities and sent it off and they wouldn’t accept me. I wasn’t of the accepted standard required by the RAF. I only weighed about four stone, four or five stone and small, and so I never get in, but I got my own back and joined up and became an engineer.
GR: So you tried to join the RAF, what when you were, what, fourteen years old?
SC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
GR: Which was a bit young.
SC: Yeah, yeah, well you see, because I wanted to go in as an apprentice, you see, and they’d go to school. They’d march down with a piped band, and walk back with a piped band all the time. I knew quite a bit about it, you know, found out about things but anyway it wasn’t to be.
GR: So you were turned down initially.
SC: Oh yeah, turned down. Well after that ‒ [unclear].
GR: Right so when was that? How did that happen?
SC: That was 1941. 1941 I joined the Air Force.
GR: And they sent you for training?
GR: Sent me for training as a flight engineer, which I passed and came away with a first class and went to er, ‒, posted to Blackpool. That’s where I come from. And you’re posted in The Progress Hotel. I thought, ‘I know her, I know her, I know the owner’. It’s just gone out of my bloody mind now, I thought ‘Smashing!’ I walked in there, walked in there, bloody queer you know. Holmes, Mrs Holmes. Bloody place, we were just in one room, just beds, nothing else. Electric light, yes. Heating, no. And this was 1941, Christmas. So, anyway, I was posted ‒. I was going on to 256 Squadron then at Squires Gate, which I knew, and we had to walk there and have meals, and then walk right across the airport to where we were. I had A for alpha er, to look after from a flight engineer’s, from an engineer’s point of view
GR: So you were a fitter engineer.
SC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I never had a fly in one. There was an accident there with a Blackburn Botha, Blackburn Botha, and a flood and one of our aircraft, it was a Defiant, Defiant and that was a bad aircraft and over Central Station it crashed, but of course I didn’t know much about it because I was in the Air Force at the time. Anyway, I left there ‒.
GR: Just going back, 256 Squadron where you was an engineer fitter. Was it Hurricanes and Defiants?
SC: Pardon?
GR: Hurricanes and Defiants?
SC: That’s right, yeah.
GR: And what did that encompass? Was you an engine fitter?
SC: Engine fitter. Yes. Engine fitter and, of course, they had the same engines in them anyway. And I got posted then to Stradishall and there was no aircraft there or anything. We were waiting for it to commence and I was on Air Speed Oxfords ‒,
GR: Still as a fitter?
SC: Oh yeah, yeah and sort them. Oh, Stradishall was a queer place. There was 214 Squadron were there on Wellingtons and er ‒.
GR: Stirlings I think?
SC: Stirlings, yes there were, 3 Group and oh, I don’t know who I was with but there was another squadron on the station, 138 Squadron. They had Whitleys.
GR: Sid’s putting his fingers to be silent. I think 138 was a special duties squadron.
SC: They had Whitleys, Manchesters and ‒, oh, it’s just gone out of my head, and you know ‒.
GR: You said Manchesters. Halifax, Stirlings?
SC: No, no, no.
GR: Lysanders?
SC: Lysanders, Westland Lysanders [emphasis]. They had Whitleys and Lysanders and er, I have seen people [unclear] taking secret people to France. I see them get up the rope. Anyway, there was one incident that I saw, a Stirling, sorry a Lysander, skid and go in the back of a wagon, just pulled the canvas off, nobody hurt, nobody killed, but we went when it was terrible weather, terrible weather. We didn’t have an aircraft at all but we were employed clearing the runways. My address was number 35, Married Quarters, an empty, empty house. There was nothing there, just three beds in there, no lockers, anything at all, just three beds then usual blankets for to cover us, two blankets apiece, and in the morning we had to get out there, no fire, no hot water and we got all wet through. We had to put our wet trousers on and go out again ‘cause there was nowhere to dry ‘em. Anyway, there was no flying for about eight days it was that bad, 1942 this and ‒, I’m trying to think of where ‒. Oh, I was keen, as I say, always after the money, so I heard they were forming the RAF Regiment so I jumped down and wanted to join the RAF Regiment. They says, ‘Who are yer?’ I says ‘I’m here, I’m there’, anyway he says, ‘You can’t’. You see, because in the Air Force there was six groups of money.
GR: That’s right.
SC: All the people could be of the same rank but all on different money dependent on training. There was group one engineers, group two, group three, group four, group five, and six was ‘M’ [unclear] medical . You can only re-muster upwards and you’re at the top and there’s nowhere you could go. So I says ‘Oh, right, so’.
GR: Probably, as an engineer fitter you was more needed as that.
SC: That was the best job they had in the RAF for people of my age. Anyway, I decided I’d go in as a flight engineer.
GR: So you volunteered for aircrew.
SC: Yes, volunteered for air crew. So they says, ‘Yes, medical, this, that and the other, yes. You’re just the type we want’, so I went as aircrew.
GR: ‘Cause I believe in 1942 as Bomber Command was moving into four engine bombers ‒
SC: That’s right.
GR: Stirlings, Lancs, Hallifax.
SC: Exactly.
GR: So, the extra crew member they needed was the flight engineer.
SC: And a gunner, mid upper gunner.
GR: With your background obviously ‒. So did you do training then? More training?
SC: This will amuse you. Jack Campbell [?], he joined together with me. We even started school together he and I. He joined, he was going as a gunner, wireless operator air gunner, WOP AGs they called them. So of course, being volunteers we were tested, you weren’t tested if you were brought, you was summoned in, so we went into a little room, not much bigger than my lounge and there was queues in there so we go in the queues and was given a bible apiece, a bible apiece, so we were there he recited something and we’d repeat it you know, obeying all the laws and kings and queens and that bloody rubbish. So, we said, ‘Yes, so where’s this bloody shilling coming in?’ The King’s shilling I’d heard of, anyway we came out of there with no shilling. Well, I thought he’s had about 50 shillings that should have been ours, or not. But apparently it’s a myth I think [unclear]. So, that was it. Anyway, so I was in, so I went from there to er, I’ll go and try and find it the name ‒ but it was the head place, the main headquarters, where the boy entrants were and all that ‒ .
GR: Alton?
SC: Alton. Correct, correct. We went there to new entrant headquarters. We were there for a fortnight. Of course, we were hierarchy you see, so that was fair enough, altogether we were off on our way, marched up, and they decided so many people, and we all got a corporal in charge of us and we went to Cardiff, yes Cardiff. ‘Where we going now?’ Goes up the road, another train, we end up in Llanelly, I don’t know, it was always called ‘Slash’ to airmen. We went to Number 1 SDF air crew training, gunnery school, Pembray and that’s me at Pembray. You can see me, the good looking one.
GP: We’re just looking at the photograph of the good looking one on the front row?
SC: Yeah, and he was the instructor, Flight Sergeant Marley.
GR: RAF Rembray, Number 1 Air Gunnery School
SC: That’s right.
GR: January 1943. Wonderful photograph.
SC: Yeah, right. So then came the good news in the morning. He said ‘You lads go out and enjoy yourselves’. Out we went, you see, we’d just arrived, come back, then in the morning we were told what we were going to do. We were under this gentleman. He says, ‘Well this is a very interesting course that you’re going on and of course you’re going to learn a lot. And that’s the good news. Now the bad news, you are not allowed out all week’. Couldn’t get out of the camp, couldn’t go for a drive, so we started about half past eight in the morning to about eight o’clock at night learning about these guns, trying to fit a nice [unclear] on ball turret , different things and armour piercing bullets, and tracer bullets and Christ knows what. Anyway we learned about them SGO Vickers gas operated guns, Tommy guns and oh we left there, all of us one morning, we’re off again. This is after about eight days. We got on this train and went to Cardiff, to Cardiff and then we went from Cardiff to ‒.
GR: It doesn’t matter if you can’t remember.
SC: Gillston, Gillston, all off there and then we were marched to St Athan.
GR: St Athan.
SC: That was a big place and we went there and we, of course, were greeted as we usually were with ‘Who are you? We didn’t know you were coming’. [Laughs]. Anyway, we went in the airmen, went in the airmen’s mess and got bedded down and the next morning we were all marched together, there’s more than this, this was just part of it, and righto, fall out, fall out there and he said ‘So-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so’ calling out our last three hundred names, ‘All here’, and ‘So-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so go they were there and so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so go they were there.’ So, they say right, ‘You are training to be a flight engineer on Halifaxes. You are going on Lancasters and you’re going on the big ones.’ Well the big ones was like going up in the air, like going up a mountain. So we were trained on Halifaxes and, so anyway, after we finished the course, passed out, in a puffer train again and we went to er ‒ oh I don’t know what they called it? Went somewhere to a con unit.
GR: Heavy conversion unit.
SC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, heavy conversion unit and this was in Yorkshire, anyway went there, and we were going to be crewed up there. The crewing is remarkable because this ‒ the crews which were there, they’d come off Wellingtons you see, of course they’re only a five man crew. They want a rear gunner and engineer and you mixed among yourselves and you sort yourselves out.
GR: And you’re in a big room.
SC: Yeah, well it’s nice. You go for a drink, this, that and another and they say, I suppose, ‘Well, he’s not so bad is he?’ you know and that’s how you crewed up. You’re not detailed. So, you’re going in with welcome arms. So, we joined, we joined up with this lot. [Background noise]. Oh, you’ve got that. I was trying to remember their names. That’s the crew that I was with.
GR: So, this is 427 Squadron.
SC: Yeah, that’s right.
GR: And the pilot, Sergeant Hank Henry.
SC: Aye, Henry, Hank Henry.
GR: Hank Henry and he was with the Royal Canadian Air Force and so were two of the other crew members.
SC: Yeah, that’s right but one, the navigator was a foreign officer.
GR: Yes.
SC: In the Canadian Air Force. Anyway, and there was no rubbish. Everyone was the same, you know, when we were out, on board, and so ‒
GR: And so was this the summer of 1943 or ‒
SC: No, winter ’43, early.
GR: Early winter 1943.
SC: Early ‘43.
GR: You crewed up at 427 Squadron.
SC: Yes, you see, they’d been on Wellingtons. They’d already got some ops in so we went over to er ‒ and we were taken to er, Leeming.
GR: Leeming.
SC: Leeming in Yorkshire. Well, that was 6 Group. That was the first group being formed with Canadians, so it was Canadian governed from start to finish and that was OK. So we did a few ops there. I can’t remember how many, about twelve, something like that.
GR: Can you remember your first operation that you flew on?
SC: Yeah, Bochum, yeah, I’ll never forget that, Bochum, and the navigator says to me, ‘This is where we’re going’ and oh I was dead keen, you know, up for it, dead keen, and Christ it looked as if you could put your hand in it, for flak. I thought, ‘ This is good’. Anyway ‒
GR: So, just before the first operation you had your briefing. Was you frightened? Was you looking forward to it? Or did you just take it in your stride?
SC: Well, well, I mean I didn’t know anything about it. You know, it was all completely new to you. We did a few cross countries, high and low tests, and one thing and another but we were all keen on things you see. No, well, a Halifax is a difficult, I hasten to add, ‘cause there’s twelve tanks, six in each main plane and ‒
GR: And they’re your responsibility.
SC: Oh yeah, well we had good, good skins. I mean you didn’t ask anything, I just said to Hank, I said, ‘I’m just going to switch over’, ‘Aye, OK’, he said, you see. So, anyway ‒.
GR: Did it make you feel a bit easier when you did your first operation that some of the other crew had already done ops?
SC: Well, well, yeah, I mean, you know, they were old hands, you know. Well, they were very, very, very good, you know, we got on marvellous. And people say to me, ‘Well, what did the bomb aimer do? And I’d say, ‘I don’t know’. Well, I was that busy myself ‘cause I got a panel there with all the instruments that the pilot had and I’m watching them for pressure, pressure, temperature and this, that and the other. Very, very keen ‒ and I had [unclear]
GR: Careful with your chair Sid, you’re about to go over some of your photos. Now, that’s alright, leave it there. So, Bochum was a bad one, the first one, lots of flak.
SC: Pardon? Well, yeah, well, I mean there’s not much difference to them but I mean before that I’d had nothing to compare it with. Because I remember one ‒, one place I think ‒, and I’ve got a bad memory, I think it was Wuppertal we went to. We went up there and I’d been looking through the little dome that I had, little dome, and ‘Christ there’s something coming towards us!’ And I just says, ‘Duck!’ and we went under it and it went over and this was absolutely forbidden to go over the target the wrong way, so we’d gone over and you should go right round and have another go but er, anyway, we managed that and we got on very well, very well, anyway it had become probably September, September, September they formed 427 Squadron at Leeming. They were all Canadian there and they decided, the powers that be, decided to form another squadron, namely 514 Squadron, 3 Group. 514 Squadron 3 Group and of course they were getting short, well I hadn’t been told but it appeared that they were getting short of technical staff ‘cause they had nothing, just can’t get them. [unclear]. So ‒, so we went there and it was a place called Foulsham, went to this place.
GR: So is that your whole crew?
SC: No, no just me.
GR: Just you.
SC: Just me. Engineer. So, I finished me flying, I hadn’t done a tour but they decided because where’d they get all the fitters from? See, you know, you need what? One hundred and fifty or two hundred men of different types. So anyway we goes there and they didn’t have an aircraft, they hadn’t even got an aircraft but they were forming the people. I’d overstepped it. Who should ‒, who should be the only sergeant? But Giles, who I knew at Stradishall. He was bent and he was a corporal. He had an accident where he got a screwdriver in his eye, lost his eye, and requested he stopped in the Air Force and he stopped on in the Air force until he was demobbed in ‘46 and he died when he was about 96 or 98. I used to go and see him.
GR: How did you feel about going from ground crew down to obviously air crew and back down to ground crew again?
SC: Yeah, well, I was promoted to Sergeant as a tradesman.
GR: But did you not want to keep on flying?
SC: Well, well not really. It was a relief to some extent but I missed the camaraderie that existed. It was absolutely marvellous. There was one occasion and I forget where we were going, on ops and my ‒, say this is the aircraft, my seat was here, here’s the bulkhead with my instruments on, well I couldn’t see ‘em from there, so I got my parachute and I used to sit on it, sit on this parachute and underneath was a lot of oxygen bottles, yep, and I could look up at them like this or stand up. Anyway, on one occasion I’m going to the back, going to the toilet actually, going to the back there and I grabbed my parachute. The parachute was what they called the observer type that you clipped on. The pilot sat on his, that was the pilot’s parachute. Get this, I picked up the wrong handle, I got the metal handle. [whooshing noise] bloody parachute right down to the bottom before you could say ‒, bottom of the aircraft.
GR: So, the parachute exploded in the plane?
SC: Oh, aye, well, it’s held together with bungee cables, you know, [unclear] there’s no explosion down there. When I was there the other side of it was the wireless operator and I says ‘Christ, that’s me, if we’re in trouble that’s me’. He said, ‘It won’t make much difference, if it comes to it we’ll go together you and me’, and you know I nearly bloody cried when he said that, and I believe him. People, [coughs] pardon me, if we’re talking people many think I’m telling lies but I’m not, I was really upset, and I was crying with pleasure because I know [unclear] he would, I’m bloody certain he would. So, anyway that was one unfortunate bloody thing that happened.
GR: So you are now with 514 Squadron? Obviously back to being a fitter, a fitter engineer.
SC: Yes, yes, then we were receiving aircraft to make the squadron up you see and give them what they called an acceptance examination. You can’t just use it and some required some modifications, you don’t hold the system up because they put it in a different flare chute in, you have to put it in when you get to mace [?]. So we formed up and then in December 1943 this is, December 1943. The last operation they did, I forget where it was, but they went to ‒, went from Foulsham and landed at Waterbeach, which was new station, nicely built place etcetera was there, so we were there ‒, I think over ‒, I think it was the second Christmas we had the misfortune on sea [?] flight. They say that a bomb dropped off an aircraft and there was about twenty three killed, killed on sea [?] flight, but well, we don’t know what happened really. Anyone with any information was dead and it was a [unclear]. Mind you it was mixed, a lot of old, er, chaps who were on pension and had been called in you see. And I mixed with people who were much older than me. We’d got Charlie George, Charlie George and Ginger Leadbetter. They’d wouldn’t have nought to do with women. If you went on holiday, and it wasn’t payday, you could go on a casual and take a few quid to go with. So, I was there and Ginger Leadbetter came away, Ginger Leadbetter, aye, and Charlie George says to him ‘Have you got your money?’ These two were old friends. They’d be forty-odd. ‘No’ he says, ‘I haven’t got it’, ‘Well, wouldn’t they give it to you?’ ‘Oh aye’, he says, ’It was a woman!’ So he says, ‘Where?’ He says, ‘The officer, a woman!’ He wouldn’t take the money. [Laughs].
GR: I bet you [emphasis] did.
SC: Oh, I would have done but lots of people didn’t, not because of the women so much, but anyway it was ‒. I really enjoyed myself there, and the CTO, Chief Technical Officer was er, a ‒, oh Christ, smashing bloke. He knew everything that went on. Anyway, the war’s over Christmas 1945, that’s right ‘45, just before Christmas ’45. Only my eldest daughter was born at August towards ‒. I got no leave, not like today. Can’t get [unclear]. So, he says ‘Right, post you to Italy’. Italy, Christ! So, we went to Italy. Well, this was rumoured again, it wasn’t publicised but it’s rumoured and I really want to emphasise this is rumour, that there was a chance of a war breaking out between Yugoslavia and Italy ‘cause Italy was on our side then.
GR: Yes.
SC: They changed, you see, and this was to show force and round about fifteen bombers, Lancasters, used to come out every day, land at Pomigliano, which is Naples, which I was at at that time, or Bari, which is on the Adriatic side, along there, go backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. I don’t think they [unclear] on there [unclear] in their quarters. ‘Cause we were stable there, we had our own places in which to live, but that’s what happened and there was no bullshit there, nothing, and someone said ‒, you’ll laugh, you won’t believe this but it’s true, ‘A parade in the morning’, a parade [emphasis], ‘Get out’, ‘There is’, and anyway we all formed and don’t forget we got German prisoners of war in tents on camp. Somebody says ‘There’s something going on’, he says, ‘Cause Latchthorne[?] has had a bloody haircut’. He was the [unclear] officer, had a haircut. Anyway, a strike had broken out in the Far East, an RAF strike, and they were frightened it would go right through ‘cause we were, what you’d call, Middle East, Middle East Mediterranean Forces, and that was funny.
GR: How long did you stay in Italy for?
SC: Well, came back from Italy and this will amuse you, come back, I think it would be June when, this is testing my memory, when apparently political things had settled down a bit, we were withdrawn and we came back from there and then ‒
GR: So about June 1946?
SC: Yes, yes,
GR: Came back to the UK?
SC: Yeah, came back. Didn’t know where we’d go. We see all these go backwards and forwards, go back on a train six in a carriage, six senior COs in a carriage, in a compartment, and eight for the others and we’re there and I said, ‘We ain’t gonna get any bloody sleep here’, took us four or five days to get home. So I says, I says, ‘Aye, this is awkward. I’ve sorted it out. What do you reckon?’ So, I says, ‘Right, seats, one man on each. Right, luggage rack, one man on each’, so he says, ‘That’s alright, well ‒’, he says, ‘There’s six of us’, I says, ’Well, I’m coming to that, one fella lies on the floor between the two benches’, he says, ’That’s five ways, what about the last one?’ I says, ’ That’s me. I’m gonna make a bloody hammock over the top with the bloody kit bag ropes’. Of course it was alright for about three quarters of an hour but the rope broke [laughs] and I fell [unclear] so anyway that’s what happened. So we, we, we, eventually got to England across [unclear]. I don’t fancy the water. I says, ’I don’t fancy the weather, the weather’s supposed to be bad.’ So he says, ‘It’s not so bad, it’s alright’. [Unclear] you silly bloody dope. We came back on the very day lots of ships got sank on the race around England. Anyway, we er, managed and then early morning parade, calling names out this, that and the other, well this, that and the other, over there. And he says, ‘Right, you’re going to Church Lawford’. Oh, right. ‘Church Lawford, you’, and I was going to Church Lawford. That was the AFTS, Advanced Flying Training School, with Harvards (American aircraft). Well I knew the bloody engine’s just the same. So Ginger and I went and unfortunately ‒, Ginger, he was a rigger, on air frames on the other side, and we went to this place. Well, in the Air force when you go from station to station to station you have to have an arrival chit and it has to be endorsed by the person to say that they know that you’re here, you see, and there’s about a dozen, at least a dozen places, what with a medical here, there and everywhere. So anyway, different ones. Well of course it takes you some time to go to these people to introduce yourself. Well the first place you go, pay accounts, another payroll, so I goes there and signs in. So we went to the doctors and dentist, goodness knows what. The last one, where’s that? Where you’re gonna work. That’s two days you’ve been doing now. So we goes, and some NCOs seem to have a certain amount of freedom with the officers because quite often they knew more than the bloody officers above your engineers and that. You’d get engineer graduates from college and well they knew nought about aeroplanes. Anyway, goes there and when I was there you could tap on the door and then put your head round and he’d say ‘Come in’, or ‘I’ll send someone out in a minute’, you see, so he had that licence. So Wing Commander Perry (never came across a wing commander before in the engineering, very queer), anyway, him and I stand there outside, smarten up, you know, no answer ‒ . So anyway [laughs], so Ginger says ‘Come on, let’s go and get a coffee’. I say, ‘There’s someone in here’. He says ‘There isn’t. There’s nobody in there is there?’ I says, ‘I can hear him writing’. He said, ‘Writing?’ Of course, biros hadn’t been invented. I could hear him scratching, you see, ‘cause I had bloody good ears then, which I haven’t now. I said, ‘There’s somebody in there.’ So, he says, ‘Oh right’. So anyway taps on the door and walks in, stood in front of him, he’s still writing, Ginger is still next to me. This is true to the letter. He says, ‘Did you hear me say ‘Come in Sergeant’?’ He said, ‘No Sir’. So he says, ‘Did you hear me say ‘Come in Sergeant’’, I says ‘No, Sir’. He said, ‘Well f‒ off out then!’ [laughs]. I’d never came across language like that from a bloody wing commander so we bloody goes out. Anyway, we’re in the bloody s‒ here with him. Anyway, a girl comes in, calls in and says ‘Welcome’ and then that and the other. He must have been about forty five years of age, must have been by the looks of him. So anyway, we went over and there was two men that we were relieving. There should have been about five senior NCOs and rumour had it, somehow, it has just dawned on me that one of them, that I relieved, had been a prisoner of war and they still wouldn’t let him go ‘til they’d got a replacement, and they got a bloody replacement and that was me! I never seen him again, he’d gone, but I really enjoyed myself in the Air force to some extent, well to a large extent.
GR: When was you demobbed?
SC: Demobbed on 16th August 1946.
GR: And what did you do next?
SC: Well foolishly I did nothing, just hung about and that. ‘Cause I went to Blackpool, took the wife and kids to Blackpool and then I couldn’t get a job.
GR: Now, you’ve mentioned it, was you married?
SC: Pardon?
GR: Was you married during the war?
SC: Yeah, I was married in 1946, 1946. No, no. no, married in 19‒.
GR: ‘Cause you mentioned your wife a couple of times.
GR: Before the war started?
SC: Oh no, no.
GR: During the war? It doesn’t matter exactly when.
SC: Married in May ‘44, May 1944 ‘cause I wouldn’t get married while I was flying.
GR: While you was flying.
SC: My wife wanted to get married earlier but I wouldn’t, not while I was flying, so we married in the April next year, er, ’44.
GR: So after you’re demobbed, back in Blackpool.
SC: Back in Blackpool. I couldn’t get jobs and that was a terrible place for employment.
GR: Unless you was singing on the pier.
SC: [Laughs] That’s right but my voice had gone so I couldn’t and I got some contacts in Blackpool but it wasn’t to be and I went to Standard Telephones and er, in the model shop, gets out of there, goes back to Blackpool, went to the accounts department. I had a good job there ‘cause there was two of us in my place, a big place was Standard Telephones. Chap next to me, he was first class, he went on holiday, [unclear] I got a lot less. Anyway I must have suited them ‘cause I got a £2 pay rise. They used to come in and put it face down in case anybody had a look. Oh Christ, £2! So I got a job there then. Well, when I was at Church Lawford I was dealing direct with a company where the ‒, a motor company, that was agents, main agents for Pratt and Whitney you see, I’d lend them stuff and they knew me by name. Anyway, ‘course I know [unclear] ‘cause there was no one above me, I was the gaffer, and I left there and joined British Airways, British Airways. My brother said to me, ’Oh, you want to get with British Airways, they’re good in aircraft despatch and that’, because you got to work out the balance before it went in the air. You know when you’re a kid and you’re on a seesaw you’re going one way, ‘hey there, get further back and get so and so’. Well you can’t do that with an aeroplane. It’s got to be balanced before it’s up. You can’t do it once it’s up.
GR: So you joined British Airways as a ‒?
SC: As a clerk, as a clerk on five pounds nineteen shillings and sixpence. And I lost twelve quid. I was bloody annoyed. Anyway I went up and eventually there was a new system coming out and I don’t know how it got about but I became top of Europe, you know, ‘cause I said to my boss, I says, ‘Are you trying to make a bloody fool of me on that bloody thing?’ ‘No, no, no’ he says ‘You must go’. Anyway I came top, and it was only British Airways of course. So I was promoted to the hierarchy and I stayed there until I left when I was sixty, ‘cause my wife was very poorly so I had to leave there. In fact I got a letter here ‒
GR: So you finished your working career with British Airways?
SC: No, I got a letter here to say that one of 427 Squadron had crashed on BA property and they were holding a meeting, I got it here somewhere, the meeting. Yeah, that’s it, that’s the letter they sent me. Because I belonged ‒.
GR: British Airways have dedicated a memorial to 427 Squadron for a crashed aircraft and did you attend the unveiling?
SC: No, well I couldn’t leave the wife and she wasn’t fit to fly so I never went.
Gr: So, I’ll switch off.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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ACooperS151027
PCooperS1501
Title
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Interview with Syd Cooper. One
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:47:48 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Date
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2015-10-27
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney Cooper was born in Blackpool and joined the Royal Air Force in 1941. He first served as an engine fitter in Fighter Command before remustering as aircrew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 427 Squadron from RAF Leeming. He later served as ground crew with 514 Squadron. On leaving the Royal Air Force in 1946 he worked for Standard Telephones and British Airways.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Italy
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
427 Squadron
514 Squadron
aircrew
Botha
Defiant
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Hurricane
Lancaster
military living conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Church Lawford
RAF Foulsham
RAF Leeming
RAF Stradishall
Wellington