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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46474/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v670002.mp3
dc330a19486127faee58285311c26dbe
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-06-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
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34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
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Interviewer: I’m with Bertie Salvage in his home in Stamford.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And Bertie served a good long time in the Air Force.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And so, to start. I understand Bertie that your first encounter with the RAF was when you joined up. Was it 1939?
BS: 1939. On October the 6th 1939. And —
Interviewer: Yeah. I mean, you know, did you that was at the beginning of the Second World War.
BS: Well, it was. The war had broken out early September and it was a Sunday afternoon and we were home and the air raid siren went off for the first time. We were all sitting down to Sunday dinner in Southend on Sea where I —
Interviewer: This is the famous first day of the war.
BS: Yes, it was. The first day of the war. Then of course we all rushed outside. Of course nothing happened, you know. It was, it was just a false alarm. But anyway, I had received notification that I had passed the RAF exam as an aircraft apprentice to go to Cranwell and so I then received information in early September that I was to report to Cranwell on the 6th of October 1939. So this was, this duly happened. I went to Cranwell. I was inducted as an aircraft apprentice at RAF Cranwell. The instrument maker apprentices and the wires and electrical mechanic apprentices were being trained at Cranwell at the time. The other trades were being trained at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire. So they were the two schools really and also some at Cosford. They were boy entrants. Anway, so it was quite a fierce trades really from the comforts of home to the, to the spartan conditions of the RAF as it then was in 1939. We were in huge barrack blocks at Cranwell where they had forty to a room you know. Iron bedsteads left over from the Great War I think [laughs] and very very far, very strong discipline you know. Very firm discipline which it had to be for young boys I suppose just joining the Air Force but I settled down and we did basic training on the square. Just for a few weeks you know. Two or three weeks basic training and drill and all that sort of thing. Learned to keep ourselves neat and tidy, our uniforms. To keep the barrack rooms clean and everything else. And of course, it was very very tough the discipline but you know some, in some respects you appreciated it. I enjoyed it really. Well, then we settled in on our technical training. We used to march down to the workshops every day at Cranwell and this went on and on and the, the one thing I do remember is that going over into 1940 just about the time of just before Dunkirk when the Germans had invaded the low countries we used to march to the workshops every day and during that early period when the Germans were still invading France they used to play patriotic music over the tannoy system as we were marching to work. Such things as, “We’re Going to Hang out the Washing on the Siegfried Line.” [laughs] And of course that didn’t ever happen. Things like that you know. It was quite an amazing time to go through really at that period leading up to Dunkirk. Anyway, so the training went on. I found it very interesting. The technical training. All the aircraft. The aircraft electrical instrument systems and all that you know and also quite a lot of electrical information. Electrical instruction as well because a lot of instruments were, you know operated by electricity or electrical systems and you know so that went on sort of quite happily. And then in 1940 around about August time the instrument maker schools was moved out to Halton with the apprentices of the other trades. RAF Halton. It was a wonderful change because Halton is a lovely part of the country you know in Buckinghamshire whereas Cranwell was —
Interviewer: Flat.
BS: We didn’t like it very much up there. Dismal sort of area there. So we got to Halton and but, but in the interim period sort of you know we had a month’s leave actually. Four weeks leave in the changeover between going from Cranwell to Halton and I went home to Southend on Sea and I watched lots of the Battle of Britain going on with all the aerodrome above us coming up the Thames Estuary and we had a grandstand view really, Southend unfortunately.
Interviewer: And what was the feeling like in the country at that time?
BS: Very patriotic. Very patriotic. Yeah.
Interviewer: And was there a, you know a real fear of invasion at that stage?
BS: Well, there was a fear of, well there was but somehow we used to have the feeling it can’t happen to us. You know that sort of British feeling that —
Interviewer: Stiff upper lip and all that.
BS: Stiff upper lip and all that. Oh yes. There was the fear but it was, it was a defiance really. No one is bloody going to invade us sort of thing, you know. But of course, we were right on the, down at Southend where my old home was that was right on the sort of, you know if they had invaded it would be one of the first places that they would come in through I would have thought.
Interviewer: What was the news reporting? Was it, was, did you hear what was going on?
BS: Oh yes. Oh, the news reporting was very good. We, we knew all the time what was going on. I saw quite a few battles when I was, that month I was home. I saw quite a few aerial dogfights you know but one minute they were there and then they were gone you know. It was that —
Interviewer: Very fleeting.
BS: Very fleeting you know. Basically your question. I went through. I went and got in to the autumn of 1940 when they started the bombing on London. We used to get home occasionally on a forty eight hour pass. I went through London, through a couple of Blitzes you know and quite often I had to take shelter in the deep air raid, deep underground stations that they’d allocated to be air raids sort of shelters for people. So I experienced that and there were terrible scenes I saw you know before going on to Halton. So, that was, that was something to remember really, you know. So anyway, we, we continued our training at Halton which was, you know, very good. And then I actually because of the war they forced short the apprentice —
Interviewer: Training.
BS: Training from three years to well, less than two years.
Interviewer: Yes, I was going to say I was surprised.
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: That you were —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: That you spend time in training.
BS: Yes. So, I passed, I passed out actually in July 1941 and I wasn’t eighteen. I was still only seventeen. I passed out and our training wasn’t complete but they considered we had been trained sufficiently to be able to take part. We’d learn more as we went along.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Having joined a squadron.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You see.
Interviewer: Learning on the job.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So, nineteen, I was in the, when I was left Halton I was posted to RAF Marham in Norfolk to 218 Squadron. There were two squadrons there. The Wellington squadron. Wellingtons. 115 and 218 but Wellingtons. Basically, Wellington bombers and I always remember in the train going from, up from Halton to, to Marham it was a lovely sunny day in July we heard for the first time the subject about the Russians. The Germans invading Russia. That was the first time we had heard that Russia had come into the war you see. And so we got to, got to Marham and of course straightway I was pitchforked on to the squadron and it was very interesting you know being inducted into servicing the Wellingtons. We used to have to also apart from looking after all the instrument systems, instrument repairs and replacement we had also responsibility for the navigation system as well you know because it was astral navigation in those days you know and also the oxygen system. So we had to, in those days you had to physically change the oxygen bottles after every trip, you know. Quite a lot of bottles too. That was quite a job. So that’s one of my little jobs I had to do. But one of the funny things was that the aircraft apart from dropping bombs they used to drop leaflets over Germany. I still have a sample. And also fake ration cards so the Germans would probably pick up these fake ration cards to help deplete the German rations you see. I’ve still got one of those somewhere. Anyway, so that was that but the basic thing I’ll always remember is that of course in those days bombing was, at the time we thought it was very effective but it was not very effective. There was an awful lot of missed targets.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: An awful lot of mixed targets.
Interviewer: Area bombing. Yeah.
BS: That’s right, and but the sad thing was you know the aircrew used to come out and used to get the captains of a bomber was only about nineteen or twenty you know. The responsibility that the lads took on then in those days was quite, it really was quite [pause] but I thinking back on it now I hardly ever saw any sign of fear. They were laughing and joking. They used to wee on the wheels for good luck and things like that you know. And the old air gunners would let off the guns into the night sky just to check on them you know in the turrets. You know and, but they always seemed to set off in a very good mood. But of course, when they didn’t come back or came back badly damaged you know often with blood. On one occasion I remember the, one came back and the rear turret was just a mass of blood and gore.
Interviewer: Yes, I heard somebody else says that.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And the damage that the, that the Wellington could take with geodetic construction was quite amazing really. Old Barnes Wallis had designed them very well indeed you know. And then once, I’d been there a few weeks when the film people came to take a, they made a film called, “One of Our Aircraft is missing.” And they came to shoot at the early stages of the aircraft taking off from our, they came around to our dispersal and they took photos of us ground crew waving to the aircraft as they took off in to the night sky on their bombing missions.
Interviewer: Did they? So that was just done for the camera was it?
BS: that was done for the camera really you know. And I did see and I did have a copy afterwards that I actually saw the back of me and three others just waving like mad to the aircraft that took off into the night sky. But it was a very very very poignant really. They take off into the dusk you know. Disappear. Of course, all grass airfields then. There was no runways. No runways. They were all grass airfields. And so which was quite an embarrassment really later on because in the Autumn of 1941 we converted to Stirlings. We were the second squadron to be, I’ll just get this for you [pause] to be converted to, sorry to be converted to Stirlings.
Interviewer: Oh, I think I’ve seen this photograph before. Yes.
BS: Yes. It’s a special. There was only a few copies made.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: That’s one of the few.
Interviewer: A nice looking aeroplane.
BS: Yes. But very heavy. Very big. Much bigger than the Lanc you know. They carried a bigger bomb load. But of course, the trouble with the Stirling was that the Hercules engines didn’t have the power really to get them over the Alps and they had to struggle like hell to get over to bomb Northern Italy as they used to go and bomb Turin quite a lot. But they used to struggle to get over the Alps and I think they realised that they were built like a tank. Like a fortress inside. But they just didn’t have the power really and I think actually when it came into about 1943 they were actually taken off full line bombing and became towers for the gliders and things like that.
Interviewer: It's a shame because everybody now looks back and thinks —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: The Lancaster was the only bomber.
BS: Oh no. No. The Stirling was she was ever she was very good in every respect bar the fact she was underpowered. But I’ve flown in a Stirling and I’ve flown, I had to get every chance I could. Air testing, you know. Those I used to fly. I’ve flown I a Stirling. I’ve flown quite a few times in Wellingtons. You know, on the air tests. I used to like to sit in the rear turrets. Quite fun. And you know so I got one for experience really and the, and another snag with the Stirling was that it was the first aircraft that ever had the electrical undercarriage. And old DC motors they requires three thick cables to really get the power through and it was quite a thing to see a Stirling with one wheel collapsed and like this on the airfield. Like you know and had to jack them up to —
Interviewer: I wonder why they went for electric motors rather than —
BS: I don’t know.
Interviewer: Metal damage to cope with if the hydraulics had been —
BS: I think so. I think it was an experiment really you know. They were coming in to a new era and you know so, you know I think they—
Interviewer: A bit embarrassing if you have a generator failure.
BS: Oh yes. And of course, they realised being as these were such big heavy aircraft that the grass airfield was not very good at all. You know, they used to —
Interviewer: They used to get waterlogged, didn’t they?
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Some of these old grassed airfields.
BS: Yeah. So soon after that that, I left the country by then that they decided to build runways you see. So, you know I, people say to me oh there’s the lady who I’m very good friends with at the moment. She’s quite a bit younger than me but if I talk about the olden days she doesn’t want to know. ‘Oh, don’t talk about the past.’ The past. But you get to my age you think about it. It’s life to you, you know what I mean?
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: My memory is still so fantastically good really, you know. Way back to those days it’s as clear as a bell really.
Interviewer: And didn’t you tell me that you remember Trenchard coming?
BS: Oh sorry. Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: He lived up to his Boom Trenchard.
BS: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Trenchard. Big man.
BS: When the, I hadn’t been at Marham very long, perhaps, are we still oh dear. I hadn’t been at Marham very long when it was a bit of a miserable sort of day and of course we were working in the hangars and they used to say, ‘Come on. Get outside.’ You know. Assembled on the tarmac outside the hangars because there’s going to be someone giving a talk. So we went outside and stood in a big sort of circle. And suddenly this figure appeared and he was introduced as to Lord Trenchard you see and there he was in his uniform and his rather flat sort of hat. It wasn’t, a bit of a squashed looking hat on his head and he gave us a pep talk you see about how, what a wonderful job we were doing. To keep up, lads, you know. You know, sort of you know and we’ve got the Germans on the run [laughs] you know [laughs] We bloody well hadn’t at that time.
Interviewer: So you took it with a pinch of salt.
BS: Oh yes. I stood quite close to him actually. He had a moustache if I remember rightly.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: But we weren’t told of course at the time it hadn’t really perhaps got around to me by then but we were told that he was the father of the Royal Air Force.
Interviewer: Absolutely.
BS: So it was a privilege to remember that, you see.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And the thing that they say about Trenchard was that when forming the Air Force one of the things he really concentrated on was very good training.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: To make sure not just the air crew but —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: To make sure that the ground crew had got all the skills.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Which is what, which is quite interesting that you —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did spend quite a good time in training even though it was in the Second World War.
BS: Oh absolutely. Oh yes. And something else I was going to say. I’ve forgotten. Oh, dear its gone from me.
Interviewer: And when the Air Force —
BS: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. He was, was the founder of the Aircraft Apprentice Scheme in 1923. He started it all up at Halton and it’s a wonderful training you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: As a boy of sixteen, just sixteen to be pitchforked from home into that, you know. The sheer discipline and we learned to look after ourselves. Do our own —
Interviewer: Sewing.
BS: Sewing and —
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And keeping our barrack rooms clean. Kit inspection once a week. Everything had to be absolutely spot on, you know. The officer used to come around with the —
Interviewer: And the aircraft apprentices have got a very good reunion and —
BS: Oh well, yes. The Halton Apprentices Association. In fact, I’ve got a book there written by an air vice marshall. Ex-aircraft apprentice who used to, we used to see him actually in our reunions down at Halton and it’s about the life of an aircraft apprentice. I’ll get it out some time and show you.
Interviewer: And the good thing is —
BS: I’ll look it up.
Interviewer: And the interesting thing is how many formal aircraft apprentices made air rank —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Very senior ranks.
BS: They did. They did. Apart from the technical training which you of course enlarged. I mean, by the time I finished at the RAF I was very highly qualified. Instruments, electronically and everything else. You know, all the courses I went on and all that work on the V bombers. So, you know, it was, it was the sheer sort of discipline that that regulated your life and you know —
Interviewer: A good start.
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: A good start. And did you say you’d, I think you just said you were just saying that you were moving on from Marham. How long did you spend there?
BS: So I was at Marham from July ‘til March ’41.
Interviewer: And then what was next?
BS: Then what happened then was I’ll tell you a funny little story. Can I just recap a bit but when, when I passed out from Halton and I went to Marham and when I went home of course we used to get forty eight passes at any time. Not just at weekends. In the middle of the week or any time. Forty eight hour pass.
Interviewer: When you could be spared.
BS: When you could be spared.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And my father who was a very very patriotic man. My father served right through the first war in the Royal Artillery, through all the modern hell of Passchendaele. You couldn’t meet a more patriotic man. King and country man everything. The fact I went in the the Air Force absolutely wonderful to him you know. Anyway, I went home on my first leave you see. And , ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Where’s your propellers on your arms?’ He thought I was going to be a leading aircraftsman straight away. Of course, I passed out as AC1 not AC2 [laughs] you see. I didn’t get quite the response then, you know. So, so that was that. So that was a funny story really going back. Yes, so what happened then was in March, early March ’42 I was posted overseas. You never knew where you were going abroad in the wartime. You never knew where you were going but overseas. So I went home on embarkation leave for a fortnight. When I got home my mother said, Southend on Sea, my mother said, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘Dad’s in hospital, ill. Oh, he’s got congestion of the lungs.’ So I went down to see him. He was very poorly in hospital at Rochford in Essex and anyway within a couple of days he had died.
Interviewer: Oh, that’s —
BS: While I was on embarkation leave. Of course, I had two sisters at home and so that was a blow. So I got a weeks extension you know for his funeral. We buried him down in, we got him buried. And so I I left home, my mother and sisters and went back to Marham to clear and went to [pause] first of all we went, I was sent up to Blackpool. Blackpool was what you called a personnel distribution centre for people going over. PDC they called it. And —
Interviewer: Was that Squire’s Gate?
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: Actually at Blackpool.
BS: That was, we were in civvy billets in Bloomfield Road opposite the football ground. Well they were all civvy billets in those days you see.
Interviewer: Right.
BS: And the nice house, a very nice house we were in. Anyway, we were there for a fortnight and in that time we were all kitted out for overseas. You had an idea perhaps where you were going in those days the sort of kit you got really and we were kitted out at Marks and Spencer’s and Woolworths were military kitting out places you see.
Interviewer: Fantastic.
BS: So we had to barter around Blackpool from one to the other being kitted out and straightaway we knew we weren’t going to India because we didn’t get a pith helmet. The pith helmet. They had the pith helmets to go into India you see. We had the old fashioned [taupes?] that they used in the sort of semi-tropical countries you know like Africa and places like that. So I had a [taupe?] I had all the rest of the khaki drill issued and then we set off. After a fortnight we were what they called drafts in those days. Then we set off by train. Took us all day in the train. Of course, no sort, they had no sort of corridor trains. They were all bloody single compartments.
Interviewer: Separate compartments. Yeah.
BS: And we finished up. Where the hell are we going to? We finished up it turned out in Avonmouth in Bristol.
Interviewer: And you still don’t know where you’re going.
BS: No. Not a clue. Not a clue. No. No. They wouldn’t tell you. So we’d not a clue. We got to Avonmouth. We offloaded from the train at the dockside and there was this big old grey steamer there for troops. She had been called the Island Princess. She had been a Argentine meat boat apparently which had been converted to a trooper. Troop carrier. So we staggered up the gangplank. Don’t know how I staggered up with kit bags. Full blooming kitted on. Your [taupe] Great coat. All the rest of our equipment. We staggered up the gangplank on to the, and straight down the gangways right down to a lower deck. One of the holds had been converted into a troop deck you see. Got down there and we were the last line of portholes going down. The Army were underneath. They didn’t have any portholes. We had the Army on board as well. And there were two hundred of us on the troop deck and we were all sleeping on hammocks and we had sort of mess tables going from the centre out to the sides of the ship you see where we allocated so many to a mess table each you see. About I don’t know about ten or twelve. Something like that. And hammocks had to be stowed in special stowage and your ordinary kit was on racks above you. So, so that was something getting used to and when we came had to sleep at night we we hung our hammocks up you know and when we all slung our hammocks we were sort of more or less touching one another you know. You always had to sleep head to toe for obvious reasons and if anybody was seasick in the night God it was hell.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Bloody awful.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: You can imagine.
Interviewer: I don’t want to contemplate it. I did I did three years in the Navy and —
BS: Oh, did you?
Interviewer: I don’t want to contemplate what it could have been like.
BS: So, so anyway so that was the old troopship and, but I got used it. Actually, I enjoyed it. Anyway, we sailed out in the and we sailed out to Greenock, picked up the rest of the convoy at Greenock and we stayed there overnight and —
Interviewer: But when the ship sailed did you still not know where the ship was going?
BS: No. Not a clue. We hadn’t got a clue. No.
Interviewer: That’s incredible.
BS: Well, I hadn’t got a clue and we sailed up the Irish Sea to Greenock and there we picked up the rest of the convoy. We sailed next day. There was ships from horizon to horizon.
Interviewer: So also and when was this?
BS: This was the end of March ’42. The height of the U-boat war.
Interviewer: Wow.
BS: The height of the U-boat war and, and there were sort of Naval vessels sort of you know going around all the time but of course the convoy had to go to the speed of the slowest ship. Eight knots. That was, that was the and we were kept one in front and one behind, you know, liners. Troopers. All grey and horizon to horizon and it was just ships everywhere. And of course, I never even gave a thought to blooming U-boats. I can remember standing on the bloody bow in the heaving North Atlantic enjoying it. Isn’t this wonderful. I never gave a thought we could bloody well be torpedoed at any time, you know. Its youth you see. Nothing can happen to me.
Interviewer: No.
BS: So anyway, so we kept going day after day after day and getting colder and colder. We were going, we thought we were going a bit north. Anyway, eventually we, we changed course and fortunately you know we saw a couple of Condors came over but, but no we didn’t, nobody was attacked at that time. Or at least after we changed direction of course I knew we were going south and eventually after about a couple of weeks or more, two and a half weeks we landed up in Freetown in Sierra Leone and we anchored there for a couple of days. And I can remember the old [unclear] coming alongside with the natives in them wanting to sell —
Interviewer: Sell things. Yeah.
BS: Including their sister ships [laughs] but rain. I’ve never known rain like it in my life. Anyway, we, we set sail again. By this time the convoy was somewhat spoiled. The faster ships they let go ahead at this point you see. But anyway, we kept, we sailed on and on and on. Eventually we must have, well I still had no idea where we were going. No idea at all, you know what was happening. Where we were going. So we got down to the South of Africa. We’re going around the Cape and suddenly we were sitting down to an evening meal down on the mess decks and suddenly bang and the whole ship shuddered like hell. So the boat sirens, alarms went so we, there wasn’t panic but we went up several ladders to the upper, to the boat decks and we stood at our boat stations. There was the Acali raft station on the bloody boat. We had an Acali raft station. And the ship just, just over there was going down. You know, she was the Naval vessel had turned back and was going towards it. So we stayed, we stayed at boat stations for what must have been well over an hour. We went down again and just sat down again when another bang went up and another ship had been hit. You know sort of further away. So, and then we were told over the tannoy that we’d actually arrived into an enemy minefield laid by the Japanese ocean going submarines and not to say anything about it. Right. Well, the next day we had these little leaflets handed out to us about conditions sort of in South Africa and we were told, our draft were told that we were going to be staying in South Africa you see. Well, you know I was absolutely over the moon about this because my eldest sister in ’39, had emigrated to South Africa and so I thought at least there. Only at the last moment two days after that we docked in Durban. And the wonderful thing is I don’t know if you’ve been told about this but all the convoys used to dock in Durban in those days. They were met by a lady on the end of the moles singing and she used, as the troop ships moved in towards the harbour she’d stand on the end of the mole, this lady in a long white dress and she was singing beautifully to all the ships as they came in. She did this every time a convoy came in to Durban during the war. Singing. Beautiful singing. And we docked and we were offloaded and we were taken to a transit camp. You see what happened was that the, it was a rest camp really and all the troops going up to North Africa you know RAF and Army used to —
Interviewer: Stop there.
BS: Have a week or a fortnights rest in Durban. At Clairwood before going out to North Africa you see. The campaign there. But we were only there for about a week because we were staying in South Africa and I was told my post would be to a place called Port Alfred down in the Cape, Eastern Cape, near Port Elizabeth. And what had happened was the Empire Training Scheme. They trained all the aircrew in South Africa, Rhodesia, America.
Interviewer: Canada.
BS: And Canada. Right. So I was posted there and of course the aircraft were Ansons and Oxfords and Old Fairey Battles.
[pause]
BS: So of course, I was over the moon because I mean and the first the thing is to go back when we were in Durban. The residents of Durban were so patriotic they used to talk about home as England not South Africa.
Interviewer: Really?
BS: All English speaking and English-speaking South Africans and every evening outside Clairwood camp there would be lines and lines of cars of Durban residents lining to take the troops to their homes to give them a —
Interviewer: Dinner.
BS: Meal.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And look after them and give them a good time. I remember the first night or second night we were there I was, went out with my friend intending to go in to Durban just to see things and a car pulled up just as we and we were, ‘Come on lads.’ You know. ‘Would you like to come home with us?’ So we said, ‘Yes, please.’ He turned out to be the chief education officer for Durban and we went to his beautiful house. They had three lovely daughters and of course it was, and after war torn England it was a paradise coming there. It was. It was. It was peacetime. It was beautiful living conditions you know.
Interviewer: So life was beginning to look up.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: At this stage.
BS: And because a lot of the chaps had perhaps come from poor homes. It must have been quite an eye opener going to some of these houses you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Being looked after like that. You know it really must have been quite fantastic. So anyway, so and of course all the time I was in South Africa I kept on very good friendly terms with the family and I used to go up there sometimes on leave. Anyway, I got to Port Alfred and with the, I was with the Instrument Section and we had, you know the, the Ansons and Oxfords were used for navigator training and bomb aimer training you know. And air gunner training also and the Fairey Battles were used for target towing. And could you [laughs] I don’t really know much about the old Fairey Battle but they lost —
Interviewer: I’ve seen, I’ve seen photographs.
BS: They’d lost an awful lot in France.
Interviewer: And they were retired from active service pretty quickly weren’t they?
BS: Oh, they lost a lot in France. Anyways, you know how you take your life in your hands as a young boy I would fly in anything because I loved flying you see and I remember having a couple of flights in Fairey Battles and oh God, spewing glycol and petrol over the ruddy place you know. It was [laughs].
Interviewer: And was the flying school run by Airwork’s?
BS: No.
Interviewer: Or was it run —
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: By the RAF?
BS: No, it was run by the either the South African Air Force and the RAF between them. So on, on the camps you see there were quite a few camps out there they were, we were a mixture of South African Air Force and RAF. But the RAF were the main trainers. Do you know what I mean? They were the main experienced people. The South African Air Force were there as sort of because this was South Africa and our CO was a colonel, South African colonel you see. So that was fine. Ok. And so it, it was a lovely mixture really but the Air Force were the main operators as you might say. The RAF. Port Alfred and 43 Air School and —
Interviewer: And as you say their duty —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Was to push out all the air crews.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: To go back to Europe.
BS: Oh yes. That’s they used to come over and they would be there for quite a few weeks and of course it’s a wonderful atmosphere to train them in in peacetime.
Interviewer: Well, that’s why they set these schools up.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: A — get them away from the war and B —
BS: Yes, that’s right.
Interviewer: In good weather conditions.
BS: That’s right. I mean the flying or navigating was perfect really and of course it was all astra navigation in those days. I mean you think back to life over here during the bombing period of those years. I mean that’s why the Americans didn’t do it up because they weren’t trained in astra navigation like our chaps were you see. You know night navigation. That’s why they took on all the —
Interviewer: That was the day raids.
BS: Day. Day bombing you see. So and I often used to go up you know on these trips with them. You know, I used to love to fly as much as I could.
Interviewer: And was there a lot of work to be done repairing the aircraft?
BS: Oh lord, yes. I mean you know it’s all the time. I mean and the wonderful thing is despite the fact that there was a war on and losses in shipping through U-boat activity and that sort of thing we never went short of spares. You know, it’s marvellous really.
Interviewer: So somebody back in England must have been doing their job to get all the spares sent out.
BS: Oh, the production in this country was absolutely wonderful when you think of it during the war. All firms like, you know like little engineering firms, workshops used to have contracts for for making spares and things like that you see. The, the organisation was absolutely fantastic, you know.
Interviewer: So and going back to Trenchard again.
BS: Oh, that’s right.
Interviewer: He set the, he set the Air Force up and made sure everybody was trained.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: So when it needed to work it could.
BS: Well, when you come back to it in 1934 they set up the five year plan. They built all those airfields like Cottesmore, Luffenham, Wittering, eventually Scampton all built on the same plan. You go to any station and they were all exactly the same virtually.
Interviewer: Similar. Similar layouts.
BS: Oh yes. H blocks and the officer’s mess. Sergeant’s Messes. Pretty well pretty much the same. This is and if it hadn’t been for that five year plan we’d have been the hell’s way in ‘39 when the war broke out.
Interviewer: How long did you get to stay in South Africa then?
BS: So anyway, so I stayed in South Africa until July ’45.
Interviewer: Oh, so you —
BS: I was there for over three years.
Interviewer: You were there for three years.
BS: Yeah. So —
Interviewer: Was that normal for for people to spend that much time there?
BS: Yes. Well, you couldn’t get home. There was no, there was no time limit to a tour in those days.
Interviewer: And presumably they wanted to cut down on the amount of troop transports.
BS: That’s right. That’s right.
Interviewer: And so it made sense to keep you there for a good long time.
BS: That’s right. I came back when the European war was over. So all the time I was out there I was very fortunate because my sister was living in Johannesburg and so the first leave I got I went up and stayed with her. Wonderful for me really. And of course, the other fellas didn’t have that. And I had some wonderful leaves and went all over the country and my sister’s husband he was working in the gold mines of Johannesburg. He joined the South African Air Force and he went up to North Africa. To a campaign up there against Rommel you see. The South African Air Force and my sister she, because her husband had gone up there she took the chance. She came down to Port Alfred and lived in the local hotel there. So —
Interviewer: Your sister on [unclear] —
BS: Yes [laughs] it was a most unusual situation really but it just so happened. It was luck.
Interviewer: You’ve got to make these things work for you haven’t you?
BS: But that’s right. Just luck. So that was that. Then in, as I say in —
Interviewer: Then again when you were serving there in the, in the sort of towards the end of the Second World War was it obvious that you heard about D-Day presumably.
BS: Oh, oh yes.
Interviewer: You heard about how the war was going.
BS: Yes. Yes. Oh yes. About [pause] what was it? In July? About January ’45 I was posted up to Pretoria to Robert’s Heights, Voortrekkerhoogte because that was Afrikaner speaking. Have you been to South Africa?
Interviewer: No. Not yet.
BS: Oh, you’ll have to go.
Interviewer: It’s on my list of places to go.
BS: Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to go back again on this scheme that they’re running for veterans to go back.
Interviewer: Oh brilliant.
BS: And visit. Visit where with a grant from the lottery.
Interviewer: Great.
BS: So if I had somebody who would go with me I’d love to go back. Anyway, so I was posted up to Pretoria to a big air depot there. We were, we were sort of a big where they used to service all the aircraft instruments. They’d come in that were US you know, unserviceable. So by this time I’d been promoted to corporal.
Interviewer: Was that a big jump up to corporal?
BS: Yeah, well —
Interviewer: As in responsibility?
BS: Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean you know you know I thought it was anyway. You know.
Interviewer: Well, they always say corporal, the two ranks in the Air Force that are most important are the corporal and the warrant officer.
BS: Oh yes. Well, corporal because you, yes, oh yes. Yes. It was fine. Yes. And so, and then as I say in July ’45 or when, when yes we did know the war was coming to an end of course and then because it was so down, I always remember VE Day out there. We all paraded on the parade ground and were given a formal talk by the station commander there. He was another South African of course and immediately of course we were given the day off you see. So my friend and I we decided to go into Johannesburg. No. Into, into, that’s right into Pretoria itself and we were picked up by a South African colonel going in his car. Of course, we used to hitch hike all over. He took us to his house. I had a lovely time. We got as drunk as hell you know [laughs] We didn’t bloody well bother. Had a wonderful time. So that was how I spent VE Day really. I got back to Pretoria and then of course we were hanging about really for a week or two still doing our jobs of course because aircraft things still had to be serviced and looked after. And then we were posted. So July, at the end of June we were told, you know we were due to go home so we, we were taken down to Cape Town. Went down by train from Johannesburg on the, on the what do they call the wonderful train? The Blue Train they call it.
Interviewer: Blue Train. Yeah.
BS: Which went right down through Kimberley and the beautiful South African landscape down to Cape Town and we were there for about ten days or so in transit to Cape Town and of course it was lovely because Cape Town is a lovely area you know altogether. A beautiful place. And then we embarked on the Alcantara. A ship. A troop ship. Still the same conditions as the one I went out on really.
Interviewer: But this time no U-boats shooting at you.
BS: No. No. No U-boats but I’ll tell you what as soon as we sailed out from Cape Town they operated the gassing system which kept, gave you warnings of submarines. Oh, magnetic mines. That’s what they —
Interviewer: Magnetic, gassing for magnetic mines.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And then Aztec obviously —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: For detecting submarines.
BS: And I always remember that because we had it on the way out there. They have these what do they call the machine guns? The Oerlikons. They used to practice those every day and oh the noise they made.
Interviewer: This is after VE Day.
BS: Oh yeah. Well, of course I mean you know I mean things were still the same. I mean things hadn’t altered. It took time to. Of course, we sailed back in just over two and a half weeks. Nearly three weeks. So it was a much quicker easier time than —
Interviewer: And when you left South Africa did you know your time in the Air Force was coming to an end or was it?
BS: No. No. Because I was a regular.
Interviewer: You joined up as a regular.
BS: Oh, I was in for twelve years.
Interviewer: Ok. So, so when you signed up in 1939 you knew you were in for twelve years.
BS: [unclear] Oh that’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: So presumably a lot of people that were with you were conscripted.
BS: Well, obviously, yes. You had conscripted, you had a release, demob number they called it. And the lower the demob number the older you were you know.
Interviewer: The quicker they were posted to —
BS: The quicker you were out. But they never started demobbing until about August really. I mean this is what I gather the film on TV, one of these Foyles War things a guy came back from North Africa. He was out. Well, he wouldn’t have been out just like that. He’d have waited weeks you know. Things like that you notice.
Interviewer: Well looking at it the demob procedure was very well done.
BS: It was very well done. Everything was so organised believe me and I mean even the demob suits. I mean the lovely beautiful material. They were wonderful material. Shirts, all the ties.
Interviewer: A pair of shoes.
BS: Coat, hat, shoes. Everything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I mean —
Interviewer: And a suitcase was it?
BS: And a suitcase.
Interviewer: And a suitcase.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So anyway, so we got, oh yeah it was a very very pleasurable voyage. Actually, I enjoyed troopship life because you know funnily enough just to go back a bit going out to South Africa was where I learned to play chess and bridge on the deck for days on end. In the afternoon you were quite free and you’d sit about on deck you know and play cards or [pause] so I know quite a few games like that and you know so, oh I thought it was tough, spartan conditions. You know the food was very spartan and and once you got over the morning with boat drill and all that sort of thing. Of course, you know it’s, it was [pause] anyway so we got back through to Liverpool and, oh yes I’m sure it was Liverpool we docked at. And then of course we were sent our demob disembarkation leave and I went back down to Southend to my home.
Interviewer: And you’d been away —
BS: To my mum.
Interviewer: And you’d been away for a good long time then.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: When you —
BS: Yeah. Can I go back a little bit?
Interviewer: Of course you can.
BS: My two sisters at home who had left home the younger one she joined the Wrens and she was actually stationed down in the tunnels at Dover. They had tunnels under the castle which they had and she was a wireless operator there and she was involved in all that recording all the traffic on the Channel. Which they did you know with the German traffic and everything else. She was involved in that. My other sister who’d been a dressmaker joined the RAF and became a radio operator. Wonderful things they trained girls to do.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: She hadn’t a clue what electricity was almost and here she was just an ordinary dressmaker joined the Air Force and they trained her to be a wireless op down at Yatesbury. Is it Yatesbury? Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Yes, that’s right. Yatesbury.
Interviewer: Near Bristol.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes. Down there. And you know she qualified and eventually she was posted to Chichsands Priory which was an out station of —
Interviewer: Bentley Priory. Bletchley Park.
BS: Bletchley Park.
Interviewer: Bletchley Park.
BS: And she used to listen to all the German aircraft recording messages and pass it on to Bletchley Park. So an ordinary dressmaker. You see the people see they trained people up to do in the war you know.
Interviewer: And the responsibilities that they had.
BS: And the responsibility.
Interviewer: At a very young age.
BS: I know. Yes.
Interviewer: So much so that certainly after the, when the war came to an end a lot of women who had been trained wanted to keep, use that training.
BS: Well exactly. Oh yes. And she found it useful my, this other sister because when I got back from South Africa she was still in, still in the WAAF and about the following year she wanted to go out and join my sister in South Africa. But you couldn’t get passage anywhere at that time on the ships or anywhere and so she got together another group of like minded people and they bought an ex-Naval air sea rescue launch. Only about sixty seventy feet long. These twenty thirty people and they equipped it and they had these petrol engines with huge fifty gallon drums of, of fuel latched on the deck and they set off for South Africa. Took them three months to get there and she eventually did get there and of course it was in all the papers at the time. This wonderful trip made by these people.
Interviewer: That must have been an experience.
BS: And then when they got there they sold their boat and my sister went up to join my other sister up in Johannesburg. Well, that’s another story but so, you know those sorts of things people did you know in those days. Anyway, so, so that so I got home and when I got back I was home for a month and then I wondered where I was going to get posted to and of all places I was posted to RAF Westwood at Peterborough. There was an RAF station there training, training Free French Air Force pilots.
Interviewer: Is that just north of Peterborough?
BS: No. It’s on the edge of Peterborough. Right on the edge. Do you know Peterborough?
Interviewer: I do but I, I —
BS: If you go out to Westwood area it was you know the bit that was the Baker Perkins factory there. It was just at the back of Baker Perkins. In fact, the airfield stretched right up to Baker Perkins fence and that was all RAF Westwood. It’s all housing now and factories.
Interviewer: Yes, I knew there was an airfield around but I wasn’t sure where it was.
BS: So I was stationed there. I was stationed there for a short while and then after a few months, I wasn’t there all that long really I was posted to Japan.
Interviewer: Right. And we’ll talk about that in the next recording.
BS: Yes. Ok.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: I’m with Bertie Salvage and we’re talking about his experiences in the RAF and after your time in the Second World War Bertie I understand you ended up in Japan.
BS: Yes. It must have been sometime in early ’46 I was posted to Japan. Of course, this came as quite a surprise to me. Of all places to go to. To the occupation force in Japan because at that time Honshu, the main island was divided into half. The Americans occupied the upper part and the British Commonwealth Occupation Force as it was called occupied the lower half of Honshu, you know which was between Army and RAF. And what, what they’d done is when the occupation forces moved in they’d taken over old Japanese military establishments including airfields and when I got there I was posted to a place called Miho which had been another Japanese airfield where they trained the Kamikaze pilots. And the south, the south of Japan, or the south west southwest corner of Japan. But anyway going back to to going we set off from Tilbury in an old boat called the SS Ranchi and this had been an old P&O boat you know. Quite an old boat and it had been fitted out as a troop ship and it took us six weeks to get to Japan believe it or not. We think these days they are there in about sixteen hours. Almost. Not quite. A bit more than that but it took us six weeks to get there. All through the Med and down through stopping off at, in Port Said, Aden, Columbo, Singapore. It was quite, Shanghai, Hong Kong then into a place called Kure in Japan which had been a big Japanese naval base. And it had been fantastic, you know the thought of going to Japan. You know this place that we’d all heard of as you know created such, you know treated, given our boys such a bad time in the war in the Far East and it was quite a fascinating thought of going there. Anyway, arrived at Kure and going through the Japanese inland sea was quite an experience. All the little volcanic islands which were quite picturesque. Eventually landed at Kure. Anyway, we were entrained across to Miho, this ex-Japanese base and of course it’s quite interesting to see the Japanese landscape. It was very hilly and mountainous. Very forested all over. Of course it’s a volcanic, volcanic origin Japan so it is, you know it is very hilly. So we landed at Miho and I was posted on to, well basically 17 Squadron Spitfires but 11 Squadron was there as well and basically I was really working on both squadrons but administratively I was sort of on the strength of 17 Squadron. And the object of the, was although we were an occupation force the main job really was to patrol the sea around Japan off the, across the Yellow Sea and you know as far on the way across towards China and all over that area for some reason or other. But anyway, so that was very interesting being there.
Interviewer: Did you get to see much of the country at all?
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Whilst you were there.
BS: Yes. I got, I just to go back a bit it was interesting because all these, all the domestic staff on the camp were Japanese. Ex-Japanese Army and lots and lots of Japanese, and lots and lots of Japanese girls used to come on the camp every day doing all the menial tasks. In fact, the funny thing was that the, I was a corporal when I went there still and whilst had been there nearly a year I was promoted to sergeant. After I was promoted to sergeant I was moved to the Sergeant’s Mess. I was given my own sort of room and I was issued with a room girl who used to attend to all my domestic requirements. She used to clean my room and keep doing my washing and ironing and everything else. So that was quite an experience in itself and whilst I was there we had a NAAFI canteen of course which we, which we used to use and this was staffed by English girls in the WRVS who had been sent in to to run the canteens for the troops you see. And I happened to meet the manageress of the local NAAFI canteen and get to know her quite well. Gladys. And she, like the other girls were living in the Officer’s Mess. They were given the honorary rank of flight lieutenant because there was no other sort of way we could accommodate them really.
Interviewer: The equivalent. Yeah.
BS: You see. Because the Japanese were really off limits in the sense, in the sense that when you went out in Japan we were pretty well limited to we’d go in the shops and things. We weren’t really supposed to go in their houses and that sort of thing you know. You know, we were and all our provisions were you know were provided by either America, Australia or New Zealand or Australia. They used to come from all over the, the western world one might say. Of course, the Japanese had nothing. They had only rice and fish to eat you see. Of course, they weren’t ever proper meat eaters before that. They’d sort of produced dairy herds and that sort of thing. They lived on rice and fish. Anyway, so that was the situation there. So I got to know Gladys very very well and we eventually at the time I was there we, we courted as one might say and eventually I married her in Japan. And by this time she had been sent down to Iwakuni which was the main RAF base headquarters down, down near Kure. The RAF airfield at Iwakuni and it was the Communication Flight there. They had Dakotas there which they used to supply the, communicate with the RAF other establishments in Honshu and she got posted there to the WRVS canteen there and I wangled, by this time I’d been promoted to sergeant, by this time I wangled a posting down there myself you see. I think they took pity on me at Miho. Anyway, so I was posted down to Iwakuni as well. It was at Iwakuni that Gladys and I had as service wedding. And of course the funny thing was that of course I was working on the Dakotas there and the funny thing was that she was living in the Officer’s Mess there and I I was living in the Sergeant’s Mess. So after we got married we had to go back to the same situation. The only time I could see her was in the Officer’s Mess at Iwakuni. The WRVS had a separate sort of living room you see and I could visit her in this living room, you know. The only time I could see her inside anywhere. This went on for about nearly two months after which time we came home. But it was very interesting and when we did get married there we, we had a honeymoon up at a place called Koana just outside Tokyo. This was a beautiful hotel on the shores of the Pacific. It had been built by the Japanese to house the 1940 Olympic games which never took place. To house the contestants and everybody. So this was taken over as one of the leave hostels. Of course, what happened was that when the occupation force moved into Japan they sorted out all different sort of different sort of posh places around the country for troops to have a break.
Interviewer: R&R. Yeah.
BS: And one of them was at [Kyrenia?]. At Kyoto. Beautiful old famous beauty spot in Japan and going back a bit before I was married to Gladys I had a weeks leave up at Kyoto which was very fine indeed. It was up in the American sector actually near Tokyo. Anyway, so Gladys and I went to Koana. This was an absolutely wonderful fortnight and we actually had a week at Koana and a week down in Kobi at a beautiful Japanese house which had been the residence of the Baron Simotomo who had been executed as a war criminal and they’d taken over his old house as one of the leave hostels as it were. So we had the second week of our honeymoon there and it was absolutely fantastic. But the one of the things that you could see was in the distance to the top of Mount Fuji sticking up. You know with this white top. So that was that. Anyway, when it came time to come home I, we came home on a the old Dilwara which was a properly built troop ship and they used to call it the kit badge because they painted the big blue band around. And of course, Gladys came home first class as officer status.
Interviewer: Oh very nice.
BS: Whereas I of course was on the troop deck with the senior NCOs. Second class. So she came home first class and I came home second class and the only time I could see her was on the second class promenade deck. I wasn’t allowed through to the bloody first class either [laughs] Oh dear.
Interviewer: Only the Air Force could do that.
BS: And the thing is we had of course like all ships had OC troops on board. Like all troops had a usually a colonel who sort of late on in years.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: You might say.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And at one stage she was, poor old Gladys got seasick. She wasn’t a good sailor and I got special treatment from the OC troops to go down to her cabin to give her first aid [laughs] Oh, it was, anyway we stopped off at Singapore and Columbo and we managed to get to shore and spend a bit of time together. BS: Not much though. So the only sort of married life I had was when we got back home to England really. So, but going back to but as 17 and 11 Squadrons on American Independence Day, the 4th of July, isn’t it?
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: We were invited, the whole, both squadrons were invited up to a place called [pause] called [pause] Oh dear. The name’s gone from me for the moment but a big airfield near Tokyo which the Americans had taken over. Kizarizu. Kizarizu. That’s the name of the place. And we were invited up there to help take part in their celebrations you see. As I’ve got pictures of the two squadrons all lined up at Kizarizu. Which I, which I took when I was there. And we had a nice two or three days there really at the Americans are very —
Interviewer: Very hospitable and all that.
BS: Very very hospitable.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And they had [pause] yes what the hell, oh yes the famous American fighter. Lightnings I think they called them.
Interviewer: P38 was the twin engine.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: With the tail booms.
BS: That’s right. But before that going back to when I was at Miho the, the New Zealand air force they had corsairs used to land on —
Interviewer: They’re air craft carrier Corsairs yeah.
BS: And I’ve actually worked to service Corsairs as well.
Interviewer: Well, the Royal Navy had them as well of course.
BS: Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Yes. So a corsair. They were nice aircraft. And so anyway so after six weeks we got back to England and of course when we got back to England Gladys the WVS, she had been in the Far East you see and of course when the, when the war ended she was moved up with the occupation forces so she was there before me you see. So anyway got back to England she was, and of course she went across to her home which was at Withernsea, East Yorkshire and I went for debriefing as it were to that place up on the Wirral. An old RAF station there. What was it? I’ve forgotten the name of it now but it was it was a sort of like a distribution place you know where you used to go for debriefing after being overseas and what not.
Interviewer: Before my time.
BS: [unclear] and all that and, yes. And of course, I and then of course I went on disembarkation leave and of course I went across to Gladys’ home in Withernsea on the East Yorkshire coast and for the first time I met her parents. It was ever so funny that. And, but I must say I did enjoy my time in Japan. It was eighteen months or so. It was quite an experience. Oh yes. Another thing I forgot to mention is that when I was at Iwakuni we were very near Hiroshima and I went to Hiroshima several times and I saw it in its devastated stated and all that and going back to that time unfortunately I lost my first wife to cancer. Breast cancer. She contracted it in 1954. ’54, and she died in 1960 and at the time they did wonder if she had picked up radio activity.
Interviewer: Out in Japan.
BS: Yes. Because we went to Hiroshima several times and you know saw it and also saw Nagasaki too at one time. So, anyway but Tokyo also Tokyo was an absolute mess as well. That was bombed to hell.
Interviewer: And did you get any feeling for what the Japanese thought about the war?
BS: The Japanese. Well, typical of the Oriental mind as soon as the Emperor said stop, finished and it was all bowing and cowing. Every time you spoke to the Japanese it was always like this. Even the military. And in fact, I don’t know whether you know it but after the war was finished when we, when we sort of took back Sumatra and Java like that we used the Japanese forces to control all the blooming rebels. They came under our control and we were, we were organising all their troops that were still there and they were as obedient as anything.
Interviewer: They had a very strong sense of leadership.
BS: This was their nature. Very very strong.
Interviewer: Very hierarchical —
BS: Yes. Of course.
Interviewer: Society.
BS: The Japanese on a parade if the officer was just for you to turn around and hit the sergeant, hit a corporal the corporal would pick a private out and give him a thrashing. That’s why we used to hand the can back as I say.
Interviewer: Hand the can back. I haven’t heard that before.
BS: Oh yeah. Hand the can back. Oh yeah. Yeah. Pass the can back yes. Hand the can back. Yeah.
Interviewer: But you enjoyed your time there.
BS: Oh, I enjoyed all my Air Force career. Every bit of it. I had, I didn’t want to leave. The only reason why I left I was over fifty five, late forties when I came out it’s because we were at Wittering and we’d bought a house in Stamford. My son was at Stamford School and of course it’s a very good school.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Stamford School. And my daughter was coming up for there and so I was due to be posted to Aden or due to be posted abroad And we didn’t want any. I didn’t think Gwen wanted to move, my second wife that is so we decided and I’d had this very good job offered me with PERA at Melton Mowbray so —
Interviewer: As we say it’s a no brainer at that stage probably to—
BS: Well, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: It was Production Engineering and Research Association and I was offered a job as a senior author there. Of course, with of my technical experience in the RAF.
Interviewer: It was time to leave.
Interviewer: Yeah. The wonderful technical training I had in the Air Force was second to none.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And all the way through. You had your basic training but you keep on going on course after course after course.
BS: Again, back to —
Interviewer: I mean courses had six months.
BS: Back to that old training again.
Interviewer: Yes. I mean my electronic training and technical training was second to none when I came out.
BS: Ok. Well, we’ll talk about that in the next session.
Interviewer: Yes.
[recording paused]
BS: Do a quick sort of lead into that really.
Interviewer: Ok. Well, I’m with, I’m still with Bertie Salvage and we’ve gone through the Second World War. We’ve talked a little bit about time after the Second World War and now we’re starting to talk about his —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Memories of the V Force and you know —
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: 1954 onwards.
BS: That’s right. Well, just to go back to 1951. I was posted out to Egypt. The Canal Zone. For three years on Deversoir on the Canal. On the Canal, you know.
Interviewer: Did that posting come out of the blue or did you ask for that?
BS: Oh no. That came out the blue because I can always remember when we came back from Japan going through the bloody Suez Canal I looked across at the bleak desert area and all the different military camps and I thought oh God I hope I never get posted here.
Interviewer: Yes. I hear that’s what most people say their first —
BS: I know I was posted out to Deversoir in Egypt. Of course, it was a bit of, a bit of a hammer blow to take but I actually it was quite nice there really. It was right on the edge of the Great Bitter Lake. I was on 249 Squadron. 213, on Vampires. And of course it was my first real, I had worked on Meteors before but it was my first real experience to be working on jet aircraft. They were lovely aircraft, the Vampire.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Have you ever flown one?
Interviewer: No. No.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: No.
BS: It took us, anyway so I worked on that and so in 1954 I got posted back to England and after my month’s disembarkation leave I was posted to RAF Gaydon. Never even heard of it before. But Gaydon had been a wartime station which they were re-starting again you know sort of —
Interviewer: They started to put some money into some of the —
BS: It had been held in like a sort of mothball condition.
Interviewer: Care and maintenance.
BS: Care and maintenance. Mothballed. And so they decided to start that off and start that off as as the initial V bomber training station you know. Of course, there would just be the V bombers. What happened was that the Victor, the Vulcan and the Victor were the first ones to be designed but they were going to take a long time to get into, into operations so they decided to as a stop gap to build the Valiant which Vickers had said they could build far quicker for them as a, as a stop gap and really until the Victors and the Vulcans were available. So I was posted to RAF Gaydon as an instructor on the Technical Training School. Of course it was going to be the OCU.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: The aircrew were going to be trained there and also the ground crew people servicing the aircraft you see. So I was posted on to be the instructor on instruments on the, on the Valiant first of all. So of course, when I got there I think the very first Valiant was there. Anyway, I was straightaway sent away on long courses. I had quite a few weeks down at Vickers at Weybridge where they were being made, built there. I went to different other manufacturers of different instruments and things. GPI and Mark 4s, these all sorts.
Interviewer: The navigation equipment on the aeroplane.
BS: Yeah. Yes. And also the NBS bombing system which they used. And so I went on these long courses and I got back to Gaydon eventually and by that time of course I think another sort of couple of others were there or something and we set up the school. And I was in instruments, we had all the other trades, instruments, air frames, armaments you know and so of course I had to straight away set about creating all my instruction notes, my instruction techniques and programmes. All the, when you go in to instructing you have that all to do.
Interviewer: Yes. I remember that. Yes.
BS: Because, [unclear] because you really start to learn other things you know. You really start to realise how much do I know about my job and that sort of thing. And when it came to start teaching of course it was, it was a bit tough at first but I really got into it you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: And I got so used to writing up the authorship, authoring my own notes that it I found it very interesting indeed.
Interviewer: And working with the manufacturers is normally quite —
BS: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: You get a lot of job satisfaction if you —
BS: Yeah. I went to Coventry to HSD, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics and everywhere and also to [pause] no that was later on I went to Ferranti when I was on the Blue Steel. So, you know. So, yes you got used to it. I spent quite a month or two I suppose going around different manufacturers. Cheltenham down to —
Interviewer: Smiths.
BS: To Smiths. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You know, all sorts of different places. Anyway, of course you collate all this knowledge, put it all together and you know and, and the first day I had to instruct, you know the chaps are sitting there. I thought it was, you know it was quite an experience really.
Interviewer: And what rank are you by now?
BS: I was still a sergeant.
Interviewer: Still a sergeant. Yeah.
BS: Yes. Promotion was a bit slow and anyway I was going to go for the chief tech which I got a bit later on.
Interviewer: And what was living I mean England was still rationing going on in this period.
BS: Yeah, so what happened was when I first went to Gaydon of course there were no married quarters so they said to us go and find yourself a hiring somewhere and we’ll take it on. So I looked around South Warwickshire. I don’t know whether you know South Warwickshire. It’s a lovely county.
Interviewer: Not really. It’s a nice part of the world though, isn’t it?
BS: [unclear] and all down Stratford Upon Avon. All down that way because we were near Stratford you see and so I found myself a little —
Interviewer: This was before the M40 of course.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I found myself a little village called, down near Moreton in the Marsh called called Brailes and I found a little tiny cottage there. A country cottage. And so I moved Gladys down there, my wife with, who had our first boy then, our son by then. She was also, no she had got the two boys by then. We had two sons. So she came and so I was living out. It was about twelve miles away from there so I used to go in and backwards and forwards to Gaydon every day. So we were living in married and they started to build married quarters but they weren’t going to be ready for another year you see. So, so that went on really and of course getting to know the aircraft better and the chaps coming through. It used to be a fortnight, two weeks course or two or three weeks and then would be about a week and then have another lot come in then.
Interviewer: And is National Service still going on at this stage?
BS: And I’m going to say this, oh yes, National Service run to 1960 ’61. So National Service but what impressed me was a lot of national service chaps coming through HN, Higher National Certificate. Well trained chaps.
Interviewer: Chaps that decided to join the Air Force rather than —
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: And they were a two year commitment were they?
BS: The two year commitment.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: But they were most interesting to teach because they were so receptive. I bet you could tell them something they’d know straightaway through their engineering background. They were a joy to teach really you know. They were so good. It’s like it was during the war of course where they had all these skilled people in from outside and —
Interviewer: The interesting thing to me if people joined on a two year National Service if they spent a year or eighteen months training they would be only be productive for six months.
BS: Oh, I know. That’s right. Well, they used to spend about six months training I suppose up to the basic mechanics but I’d get these chaps in and you know they were highly really highly qualified.
Interviewer: And of course, in the early 50s of course, there was a massive expansion of the Air Force because of Korea.
BS: Oh yes. That’s right.
Interviewer: And a lot of training schools were set up then.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: A lot of aircrew were pumped through.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: And obviously there would have been all the Meteor training outfits.
BS: That’s right. Yes. So I was at, I was at Leconfield when the Korean War was on and we sent aircraft. Oh yes, when I was at Gaydon the Suez Crisis erupted.
Interviewer: ’56.
BS: Well, because I’d just come back from Suez only the previous year.
Oh, of course. Yes.
BS: And I was, I got we went through quite a lot of trouble out there with it before it fully broke out really. You know had a lot of trouble really. Anyway, but the Suez Crisis broke out and of course we had to get involved in that and we sent two or three Valiants out there with bombed up and ready to go and you know.
Interviewer: They went to Malta, didn’t they?
BS: They went to Malta.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: Yes. The service sort of evolved in that. So after, oh about 1957 or thereabouts we had the first Victors and so yes I also went then. I went on. I was taken off and went on the quite a few [unclear] of course to Handley Page at Radlett and did the Victor. On the Victor. So when I came back I was trained up on the Victor but what happened was that because it was a bit of a struggle to teach on two aircraft like that because we still had the Valiants there. A few Valiants. They had another chap come in to supplement me to, you know on the Victor so I did a bit of teaching on the Victor but this other guy sort of did more and more of that really on the actual instrumentation side. So I still sort of really concentrated on the Valiant. But I did, when he was away I used to do the Victor as well you know. So but very similar the systems really you know. Particularly the NBS system and the navigation equipment and everything else and basically the flying was pretty much it was just the layouts and things. But general principles were the same. So it was all very interesting though while I was there. So I suppose do you want me to go on from there?
Interviewer: Yeah, I just wondered, you know —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: So how long did you stay on at Gaydon?
BS: Sorry?
Interviewer: How long did you spend at Gaydon then?
BS: At Gaydon, I was, what happened was when I was at Gaydon unfortunately while I was there my first wife contracted cancer and she was given basically first of all two years to live then she actually lived for five so although I was really screened on this instructing job. It was how shall I put it? More heavily emphasised that I was screened because of Gladys’ illnesses.
Interviewer: Yeah. Domestic situation. Yeah.
BS: And through that time I was put up for a branch commission in the engineering branch but I had to turn it down because I couldn’t leave my wife, you see.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BS: So that, so that was that but anyway that didn’t matter. So that was that so, and then, so she died in 1960 and eventually I left in 1962. I was posted to RAF Newton. Not got posted but I was despatched there on the Skybolt course because I was designated. Because of my experience of technical you know side of thing they decreed that I should go on the Skybolt.
Interviewer: They needed someone to bring Skybolt into service.
BS: So I went to Newton for six months. I’d all the instrumentation electronic side of control and guidance of the Skybolt missile.
Interviewer: And did you get out to America?
BS: No.
Interviewer: During that time.
BS: Unfortunately, I got back to Gaydon and we were given a couple of weeks to pack up and we’d packed up almost with a few, well with a week I think of going to America. My wife was, well the whole family was going to go together to Denver in Colorado and then after that we were going to go down to Florida to Eginton or Eglington.
Interviewer: Eglin.
BS: Eglin.
Interviewer: Not Elgin. Eglin.
BS: We had to go to Eglin.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: Down on the Caribbean.
Interviewer: On the —
BS: Yes. Where we were —
Interviewer: The Florida coast.
BS: Two years and got fully Skybolt trained to come but a week or two before they decided to ditch Skybolt in favour of the Polaris for the submarine as a strategic missile.
Interviewer: Well, my understanding is Skybolt isn’t doing very well and —
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: JFK met with Macmillan.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And —
BS: Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: JFK offered, the Americans offered to give the Brits the chance to develop it and, and Macmillan thought the best way out of that was to buy Polaris instead.
BS: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: Which JFK agreed to.
BS: Yes. So that’s why I didn’t go. So that, so that was that finished. So of course I was then it was a few weeks in. I was a chief technician by this time well I had been for a flight sergeant. Anyway, so I think because of my Skybolt experience they decided that I should go to Blue Steel.
Interviewer: Quite logical. Yes.
BS: Yes, so because of my, so back I went to Newton and because I’d already done the Skybolt six months I was spared the initial training on Blue Steel because it was still the basic sort of training on electronics you see.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: So I went back to Newton for three months on the Blue Steel system itself. So I went back in, that was 1963 and I went back until March 1964 or March or April of ’64. So I learned all the, when I was involved on Blue Steel what was the control, the guidance system. The inertial navigation system, the control system which was the gyro control like auto pilot.
Interviewer: You had an inertia navigator didn’t it?
BS: Oh yes. Yeah, I did, I had to go to Ferrantis for that, you know. And also the flight rules computer. I was involved with all this, that [unclear] on that so I was really fully technically trained on the control and guidance system of the Blue System. I don’t think there’s many people left.
Interviewer: Just a handful I think probably that remember it.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: In any details.
BS: Anyway, so that was very interestingly and fantastically the courses I went on what you learned.
Interviewer: Who built the missile Blue Steel? Do you remember?
BS: It was HSD, Coventry.
Interviewer: Oh, Hawker Siddeley. Yeah.
BS: Yes. So, we went across there again as well. So, so I went back to Newton for that and eventually then I got posted to, well it was either Scampton or Wittering. We didn’t know. Anyway, I was, I was posted to Scampton, to Wittering. But of course, all the time I was at Wittering we had this strong liaison with Waddington with, with Scampton.
Interviewer: Scampton.
BS: Because I mean the systems on the two were, the Blue Steels were identical really. I mean —
Interviewer: A missile is identical it’s just —
BS: A missile. Yes.
Interviewer: It’s just a question of how it plugged in to the aeroplane.
BS: That’s right. Yes. But so when I went to Wittering they had built a huge new hangar there with all the servicing workshops and offices. Administrative parts and also the HTP as you called it.
Interviewer: High test peroxide.
BS: Yeah. The —
Interviewer: The Gin Palace.
BS: The Gin Palace. Yes. That was right next to the hangar and they were closely associated so I was straightway when I went to Wittering I was put in the, they had a, you know the laboratories and the calibration rooms of the workshops for the controls guidance systems. And so I was put in, I was put in charge of that really and you know obviously had staff who would be trained up like me but so for several, a year or two I was involved in the service and maintenance of the systems going on the missile.
Interviewer: And can you remember any test firings and things like that?
BS: Well, yes. I didn’t actually. I think they took off from the Welsh coast didn’t they?
Interviewer: They would have fired probably some in the Aberporth range.
BS: Yeah. The Aberporth ranges. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah but —
BS: But I never went over there. Some people did but I never got in because I was involved in the, in the servicing.
Interviewer: Servicing.
BS: Testing and calibration of the systems really, you know.
Interviewer: And it was quite a complicated piece of kit, was it? My understanding was that you had to align the inertial and fly [unclear] and then —
BS: Oh lord. Oh yes. Yes. You did. Yes. You did all that and of course we had in the iron department as we called it we had a higher complex system of calibration instruments to land the [tryoscopic] the brake hold, brake control charge had to be absolutely perfectly set up and [unclear] you know you set that with the oscilloscopes and that sort of thing and the Flight Rules Computer, the FRC, what happened was that the, the Blue Steel would be dropped from about forty thousand feet. The motor would kick in, climb up to about sixty thousand, fly for about two hundred miles, then freefall on the target. That was the [pause] Now as soon as it was launched they got up to altitude then the control system would fit in, it would click in to the control and guide the thing directed by the Flight Rules Computer which was the FRC. So the computer would take it to target with the controls being functioned by the control system provided.
Interviewer: And Ferranti I presume did all the, did that part of the —
BS: That’s right. Yes. Yes, it’s from the [INC] to the FRC to the control system and they did. Everything would lock off at a certain point and it would just freefall on to target. That’s the, that was the theory. But so all three were closely combined really. [INC[ IN, THE FRC, the control system.
Interviewer: And how did they get on regarding the aeroplane and guiding the missile when it was loaded with its, with the weapon?
BS: Well, I’ve been, well let’s put it this way I never actually went out to the, out of the QRA system. What happened was that there used to be at least one, perhaps sometimes two at the end of the runway. Quick Retaliation Aircraft they called it. The QRA. And there was always an aircraft, one or two out there all the time.
Interviewer: Loaded up and ready to go.
BS: And the crew on board as well. Ready to go within minutes you know. To take off and there would have been a guard out there I assume. I never actually went out there.
Interviewer: So if you had to service the missile —
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: The warhead would be taken off.
BS: Oh lord, yes. Well, I was all the time you never did any servicing unless the missile was actually in the hangar. Not to the point of its control system. Oh yes. They’d take the pod out and then they’d bring the missile in. The pod was put in, you know —
Interviewer: So the warhead was called the pod, was it?
BS: The pod.
Interviewer: Ok.
BS: The pod, yeah. I saw several. Well, I saw. I never had anything to do with them but I mean they used to keep we had the bomb dump at Wittering. It’s still there I think.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
BS: The Navy used to, the Navy used it.
Interviewer: Well, the bomb dump at Wittering was used, you know.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: It was the first bomb dump for the first nuclear weapons.
BS: I think it’s still functioning is it? They, I think they were —
Interviewer: I’m not too sure what it’s used for now.
BS: I think I’ve seen Navy vehicles going in there. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Quite possibly being used as a storage area.
BS: Yes. Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. It was. I never actually went in it but I, you know, I know where it was [unclear] but I never actually went inside but yes they used to. There was a lot of, a lot of fuss when they used to be loading them up with the pod you know but that was quite, and then of course as I was saying what [pause] what was it? About 1967 or thereabouts they decided that they wanted more people to come into the system. Technicians you know. And they decided to set up the Blue Steel Training School. Technical Training School at Wittering. In the Blue Steel hangar. And I was appointed, because of my instructing experience, my vast experience they asked me to set it up and run it as as organiser and also to instruct myself as a flight sergeant at this time. Instruct. Instruct. Instruct on it you see as well as organise all the other trades. So we, we, we have this scheme running. We used to have them in for about a week or two and teach them the systems, you know. So I was running that, the Technical Training School there because of my experience.
Interviewer: And did that do that do, that did all the training for Blue Steel so chaps would come down from Scampton and to do the course with you.
BS: Well, I think Scampton had, I think they must have had their own scheme because I don’t remember people coming from Scampton. I think they had their own scheme running up there. I’m pretty sure because I was just really involved with those coming into Wittering really. But I’m sure they must have done. So I was heavily involved with that. So you see my experience is very deep on the technical side on the ring of steel.
Interviewer: The thing that appeals to me is the fact that you started on learning your trade back in 1939.
BS: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: And here we are thirty years on.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Still using the basics of electrics.
BS: Oh, that’s right.
Interviewer: But applying it into a much more modern system.
BS: Oh, [unclear] all, I mean I didn’t know a thing about electronics and a finite mechanism you know and the correlation between the two mechanics to electrics and backwards and forwards. You know what I mean.
Interviewer: The beginning of digital computing.
BS: The transfers, oh yes. Oh yes. That was a appealing. The FRC was. Of course, it was all sort of transistors then. You know, transistor technology. So, you know and, and of course, you know apart from being taught you learn a lot through reading too. You know, it’s all —
Interviewer: And you must have seen a terrific change in the Air Force to have gone from the Second World War.
BS: Oh, right through.
Interviewer: To the time of Korea.
BS: Oh yes.
Interviewer: And conscription still going on.
BS: Listen, this is about me. I think —
Interviewer: National Service.
BS: I went through the most fascinating period really right through to, you know from basic things like this blooming Valentia.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: To —
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: To, to V bombers, you know. And of course, at Cosford they have the, the Cold War hangar there.
Interviewer: They do, yes. Yeah.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: I’ve been just the once.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And I must go again.
BS: Yes, I, pardon?
Interviewer: I’ve just been the once and I must go again.
BS: Yeah, well you see my daughter lives at Lichfield so it’s only just a stone’s throw from there so when I go, I’ve been once or twice you know. She takes me there. Yes and of course they’ve got a Blue Steel there. And I’ll tell you where else I saw Blue Steel. Out at Newark. You know out at Newark.
Interviewer: At the Air Museum.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: I think there’s one.
BS: I found it a pretty tatty when I went down.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: [unclear]
Interviewer: That’s the problem with museums. They get things in quite bad condition sometimes.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: And they have to allocate them time.
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: To renovate them.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: And bring them up to —
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Their former glory.
BS: And the amazing thing is, or the sad thing is that there’s only one Valiant and that’s at Cosford. That’s the only one. The only is one that is in existence now.
Interviewer: Well, the problem with you know the large aeroplanes is that if you leave them out in the open —
BS: Oh aye, well —
Interviewer: They rot very quickly.
BS: They do.
Interviewer: So I know the Irish museum —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Say they have a problem with big aeroplanes.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: They just don’t have the room for them all.
BS: No. No.
Interviewer: And they’re wondering when the TriStar retires.
BS: That’s right.
Interviewer: Where they’re going to have space to put one of those.
BS: Yes. Yes. So you know so when the Blue Steel they decided to start phasing about ’69 ’70. I just stayed on for a bit longer then I decided to retire from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Time for pastures new.
BS: Didn’t really want to go but I was really, circumstances made it. But fortunately, I went in to a very very good job at PERA and of course [pause] do you want me to go on?
Interviewer: Yes. Keep going.
BS: When I went to PERA at Melton Mowbray I don’t know whether you know or have heard of it.
Interviewer: No, I’ve not heard of them.
BS: Production Engineering and Research Association. They trouble shoot for the engineering industry. They’ve experts in every field.
Interviewer: And did, did they approach you or did you hear about it?
BS: No. I heard about them so I approached them and they wanted to interview me and I got the job before I left the Air Force.
Interviewer: Fabulous.
BS: Yeah. So that was it. So I, they have this, all these different departments for troubleshoot. Expert top engineers and you know —
Interviewer: Sounds a fantastic organisation.
BS: These particularly the machine tool industry would send people there on courses and they would have experts from PERA go to different factories to give them advice on production engineering.
Interviewer: Sounds fantastic.
BS: So they always had this large technical authorship department as well which they write up handbooks for different industries you know. So I applied but of course because of my RAF experience they had a contract. They had a contract with the Admiralty.
Interviewer: Right.
BS: To write up the manuals for the nuclear submarines at Barrow. So I was sent up to bloody Barrow in Furness on this contract. I was on HMS Churchill for months writing up the control systems on the nuclear submarines of the of the CO2 scrubber systems. You know the air is scrubbed clean and it’s ejected into the deep water to leave the oxygen to go back into the, into the hull. You know. And I wrote up all these you see because of my experience. But you know so that was a very fascinating really. So, so anyway after a couple of years I one of the member firms was a firm called Newall Engineering Group at Peterborough here. They wrote, they produced these, these very very sophisticated machine tools. Grinders and jig borers and things like that for the machine tool for the mainly for the automotive industry. You know, car factories. So they were a member firm of PERA and they were looking for a, and we used to write books for them. But they wanted their own chief author you see. So I applied and I got the job. I wanted to come nearer home.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: I was so fed up with —
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah, you get —
BS: Yeah.
Interviewer: Commuting gets a bit wearing.
BS: That’s right. It’s interesting but you know.
Interviewer: No I thought —
BS: So I thought I would come so it was a very very good job and I’d be my own boss there you know and [unclear] so I went to PERA. I went to —
Interviewer: Right.
BS: Newalls at Peterborough and I had to really convert my mind but using basic engineering knowledge to these highly sophisticated machine tools. Jig borers and high speed grinders which used to grind crank shafts and [cannon] shafts. And that was fascinating because you use your basic engineering knowledge. Although I didn’t know anything about them you still get through.
Interviewer: Yeah, its —
BS: You, you have to spend all the time in the drawing office with them and the designers. The people and really pick their brains really.
Interviewer: But if you’d been trained well in the first place it’s not difficult —
BS: Oh no.
Interviewer: To pick up something new is it?
BS: No. No. Not at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: And the idea being that you were, you could have this information, collate it write it in a presentable form you know people could read and understand, take it back and do you understand? Can you read it? And they would make, they would criticise.
Interviewer: Yeah.
BS: You know so you —
Interviewer: Critique.
BS: So that’s right so then you produce the complete manual. The interesting thing was that we supplied the machines all over the world to, to China, to, to Russia, to, to Sweden, to France to, you know all sorts of places we sold machines to, particularly Russia.
Interviewer: Did you get to travel there?
BS: Oh no. I didn’t unfortunately.
Interviewer: No.
BS: But my books of course had to be translated in to the —
Interviewer: The native language.
BS: Exactly. So as soon as I had produced a manual for machines that were going somewhere I had to get it and I had to go to the translator, we used to translate it in London. I used to go down to the translators, get the books translated, bring it back and then all us engineers used to come across you know to check the machines before going to the different countries. And they’d want to read the manual so you had to give them the manual in their language for to see if they understood you know and usually you know they went down pretty well really. And the thing is that trans, technical translation is not like ordinary translation it has to be done by A — a national of the country concerned which was just going plus the fact it has to be an engineer.
Interviewer: Yes. You’ve got it. Yes.
BS: So you’ve got to have the two. There’s no good getting a chap whose learned Russian or French to do it.
Interviewer: Yes.
BS: It’s got to be a national of the country concerned.
Interviewer: Have you ever read any books, manuals on Japanese hifi you’ll know.
BS: Oh, I know.
Interviewer: It says press button B to —
BS: In my experience I’m, oh I’m very critical of that. Very critical. So that was that really. So —
Interviewer: Well, very well. Thanks for telling me about your, a little bit of time about your time after you left the Air Force.
BS: Yes.
Interviewer: Thank you.
BS: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bertie Salvage
Salvage, Bertie-Cold War-World War II
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v67
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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01:38:46 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bertie Salvage joined the RAF in 1939 as an apprentice and initially began his technical training at RAF Cranwell before training was transferred to RAF Halton and also shortened because of the start of the Second World War. Bertie was present when Lord Trenchard addressed the ground staff at the station. Bertie was sent to South Africa to work on aircraft there for the Empire Training Scheme. He was then posted to Japan in the post war years. He progressed in his career with post war aircraft including the V bombers and then on to missiles systems such as Skybolt and Blue Steel.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1943
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
Japan
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Southend-on-Sea
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Creator
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This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
218 Squadron
ground personnel
military living conditions
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halton
RAF Marham
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1526/39256/AMilesR20090123-0001.2.mp3
1d8c370e9b4cf517211f5c27f949c29f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1526/39256/AMilesR20090123-0002.1.mp3
b063876f20ac9377b3a2f0c619cf62ed
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1526/39256/AMilesR20090123-0003.2.mp3
4f005c90484e2df6e0ae7c631e86fe80
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Miles, Reg
Reginald J Miles
R J Miles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Miles, RJ
Description
An account of the resource
102 items. The collection concerns Reg Miles (1923 - 2022) and contains his audio memoir, log book, photographs and documents. He flew 36 operations with 432 and 420 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by R Miles and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reg Miles Audio Memoir
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-01-23
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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06:46:46
Conforms To
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Pending OH transcription
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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AMilesR20090123
Creator
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Miles, R
Description
An account of the resource
Reg Miles's memoir in three parts. Part one Reg describes his childhood in St Peter’s on the Isle of Thanet, his family, school, lack of money, and holiday jobs. Reg joined the Royal Air Force as an apprentice, known as a ‘Brat’, in January 1939. He went to RAF Halton No 1 School of Technical Training, which had four wings with a thousand boys. After a medical examination, he was issued with a uniform and became a Fitter 2 (engines), looking after pieces of airframe. They were taught square bashing and he was promoted to leading apprentice. Reg recounts the antics of one Johnny Shaw who was expelled out of the Air Force. They did work in the extensive workshops, spending a few months learning how to use hand tools. Each one had a flight in a Tiger Moth. Reg then worked on engines (Merlins, Pegasus) then on aircraft. With the onset of war, his study was compressed and took his examinations after two rather than three years, becoming an Aircraftman 1st Class. Reg was posted as the sole apprentice to 34 Maintenance Unit in RAF Shawbury, which recovered crashed aircraft. His first job was removing instruments from a Spitfire. He talks of the importance of packing Masters onto sleepers and sandbags during transport, otherwise the centre section would hit the walls of humpback bridges. He was also tasked to remove burnt Ansons from a hangar. Part two Reg narrates how a Coles Crane sank in the mud when they tried to retrieve a Spitfire from a railway embankment. On another occasion, an aircraft was stuck in the roof of a village pub. They also had to recover an aircraft from a Welsh hilltop. He missed Christmas one year when their low loader was obstructed near the village pub. One plane they had to extricate had mistaken a chicken farm for a field and caused damage to the farm. They once had to close the tunnel in Liverpool to tow an aircraft. Reg recounts some incidents in which people lost their lives. Reg was transferred to 67 Maintenance Unit in Taunton. He details how they had to chop off part of a B-17 to get it back to the depot. Reg also performed the role of armourer for a time. He was sent to St. Eval in Cornwall where his first job was a Spitfire which had landed on a dry-stone wall. The Germans blew up the hangar where a recently restored Hurricane was located. Reg sought an overseas posting and sailed to South Africa on the SS Mooltan. He portrays life on board ship before he arrived in Bloemfontein at 27 Air School Bloemspruit. Reg carried out daily engine inspections of the Masters aircraft. They also had to make airworthy 104 Harvards, which were in a poor condition. Reg expresses his disquiet over the treatment of the African labourers. Part three Reg volunteered for aircrew, sailing back with the Mauretania and was posted to RAF Lympne. He was then posted to RAF St Athan for flight engineer training. He received instruction on Lancasters before going to a Heavy Conversion Unit. He joined a Canadian crew but with Halifax aircraft and Merlin engines. He was posted to a squadron with Les Lauzon (pilot) and carried out about six operations. He badly injured his hand removing an elevator lock so did not fly when his crew went missing. Reg subsequently found out that the aircraft was shot down, but they escaped and were taken as prisoners of war. Reg then joined 420 Squadron at RAF Tholthorpe and Jimmy Tease (pilot). His job was to stand next to the pilot and operate controls. He saw aircraft shot down, including a B-17 and witnessed V2s. Reg recounts some of the incidents they had with their aircraft and how they were dealt with. He gives a description of the FIDO aerodromes. Reg describes how the aircraft was struck by lightning in one operation. Reg received his commission and went to RAF Nutts Corner in Northern Ireland, a Transport Command station where he trained to fly Yorks. His final posting was to 242 Squadron at RAF Stoney Cross. Reg discusses his post-RAF life.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Northern Ireland
Northern Ireland--Antrim (County)
England--Broadstairs
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Kent
England--Liverpool
England--Merseyside
England--Shropshire
South Africa
South Africa--Bloemfontein
242 Squadron
420 Squadron
Anson
B-17
FIDO
Halifax
hangar
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Lancaster
RAF Halton
RAF Lympne
RAF Nutts Corner
RAF St Eval
RAF Stoney Cross
RAF Tholthorpe
Spitfire
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34804/SRAFIngham19410620v070001-Audio.2.mp3
1cdda487d490705f1871c23fb467186a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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RAF Ingham Heritage Group
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Other]: Make a start.
Int: Right, I’ll just, I will leave it on because this is the rough cut. Obviously what we’ll do is, just give you a copy, on a CD, of the whole recording. And then obviously when we come to do a production side of it, we’ll cut out the bits that are relevant towards the Heritage Centre but we’ll give you a copy for your family, or a couple of copies if you’d like that.
[Other]: That’ll be lovely dad!
Int: We’ll just leave the camera rolling. If at any time you want to have a break, or you need to use the toilet, or you would like a drink, if we just say and we can stop, because it won’t matter on the film: we’ll just keep it rolling. Because sometimes, we found in the past, that when we’ve interviewed some of the veterans, they’ll say could I just stop now for a cup of water, glass of water or something, so we switch it off, and that’s when some of the very interesting little pieces of information come out, when they’re just chatting, so sometimes it’s worth leaving it on. I did a very, very quick bit of research into you before I came here, so I know a little [emphasis] bit about you, and it is only a very small amount, because I didn’t realise that you were an armourer, um, I probably should have done, and obviously although you’re known as Michael, or Michael now, obviously you had your Polish first name which, would you like to pronounce it for me?
MM: [Phonetically] Michislov. [Laughter]
Int: Thank you. My pronunciation would be very embarrassing to you.
[Other]: I can’t pronounce it, can’t spell it, let alone!
Int: M I E C H Z Y S L A W. Yes.
[Other]: Miecyzslaw, something like that.
Int: How do you pronounce your surname, your family name?
MM: [Phonetically] Marishtack.
Int: Marishtick.
[Other]: [Phonetically] Marishtak. Marishtak, yes.
MM: There, you see I was in Gaza at that time, that was, Rommel was, British was worried about that, taking over Suez Canal and I wasn’t in the Air Force yet, but was about hundred fifty Polish boys, we supposed to learn how to repair the tanks, you know, but that Australian say look, its take lot of time to learn, I’m going to teach you how to drive and we going to repair and we going on the desert and test them they okay, on the front because there was hurry, you know, be ready before Rommel attacks the Suez, so I got for that, medals.
Int: And how old were you at that time then, in the desert?
MM: I was very young, well [pause] about seventeen I think, seventeen.
Int: And were you part of the Polish Air Force or the Polish Army at that time?
MM: The Army.
Int: Part of the Polish Army.
MM: At Gaza, yes. Because that was Gaza, was on the Egyptian Palestinian border, that time was, [cough] well, under British rule in Palestine, you know that. I was in Palestine as well.
Int: And you’ve obviously mentioned that you were trained in the Polish Air Force to be an armourer. When you were in the Polish Army, in Palestine, did you also deal with the shells and the bullet side of things as an armourer, or not?
MM: No. You see after that I was removed, victory was Alamein, and they moved to Egypt, and Egypt er, that was quite lot of boys and was about, volunteers about six hundred fifty, because Polish was, more to, Polish aid for us in England. So there, you know, the examination, you know, doctor, you know, everything was, so six hundred, six hundred forty five, is only sixty five been accepted, and from that time I joined the, to the Polish Air Force.
Int: Why did you decide that you wanted to apply to join the Polish Air Force? What was the reasons behind that do you think?
MM: Well because Polish, they came round to Egypt and they want some replacement in England for the younger people, you know.
Int: I was just wondering why you chose, did they, was there any, was there an incentive?
MM: I didn’t choose that.
Int: You didn’t choose, oh, okay.
MM: They just said volunteers you see! [Laugh] So this stay in Egypt and from Egypt we travelled by Royal Britannia ship round Africa because we going to go through that where U-boat was, German U-boat, and round the Capetown. We stopped in Capetown for about three days and because not only Polish but was Yugoslavian, all different nationalities, Greeks, and they all different, and we arrived to Freetown, and Freetown to Liverpool. And from Liverpool came to Halton.
Int: What, what time of year did you arrive in Liverpool? Was it the summer, or the winter, or?
MM: That wasn’t winter, no, no, no, that was er, [pause] which date was that, approximately.
Int: I’m just thinking that having been in Palestine, and having been in in Egypt, and then even South Africa, coming to Britain, and Liverpool, must have been probably very cold, very wet.
MM: No, no, no, that was June or July, something like that, that time, we arrive to England. That was in, practically summer, was that time.
Int: What was your, can you remember your first impressions when you landed in Liverpool, in England?
MM: Balloons [laugh]. Yeah, there were balloons everywhere.
Int: Oh, the barrage balloons. Yes, yeah. And then you went, you said you went to Halton.
MM: Halton, yes.
Int: For your training. Can you tell me -
MM: We travelled during the night, I don’t know why, we actually arrived early and having travelled through the night, and I seem to remember they stop us in Crewe; they give us some cup of tea and sandwiches. [Laugh]
Int: That was nice, and was it in the back of a lorry then, that you travelled?
MM: No, no, it was train.
Int: Oh, on a train, right.
MM: Yes. I think it was Crewe which er, and we arrive very late in Halton.
Int: And what are your memories of Halton, as a training?
MM: Oh, they was very good, you know, because most of the people was coming from the 303 Squadron, from Northolt, for, to Halton, for training. Some of them depends what, some of them just gunnery, you know, three months training and you’re off you know. But you know, was very, very, training was very, very good, you know, was excellent, you know, we got everything. Even remember the Russian er, [indecipherable] Bureau like came round to visit Halton and what happened they, the Brit, they shut us completely! [Laugh]
Int: They just, they wouldn’t talk to you, they just ignored you completely.
MM: Yes. They said no, no, put in school and then they shut us, the workshop up is completely: all Poles.
Int: Shut away. And how long after you arrived, did you hand over your Army uniform and then you got the blue, the blue uniform for the Air Force?
MM: Oh yes. When we arrived to Halton I got given blue uniform.
Int: Blue uniform. Then you were in the Air Force, the Polish Air Force.
MM: Yeah. That’s right.
Int: And can you remember the insignia and the badges you wore at all? Were they RAF ones or were they Polish Air Force?
MM: Polish Air Force.
Int: Polish Air Force. How long, roughly how long did you stay at Halton for, to do your training?
MM: Oh, training for, because the, I was for training this time four years, for training.
Int: Four years at Halton!
MM: Because you know, we supposed to go to Poland, after the war and you know, but they, Polish Government, say you must let every arms they got in Britain, you know, like rockets and everything, you know, and at the time was top secret, you know.
Int: So, when your training had finished, at Halton, which RAF station did you go to after Halton?
MM: Hah, Lincolnshire.
Int: Lincolnshire. Can you remember the name of the station?
MM: Cammeringham. Cammeringham.
Int: At Cammeringham, you were actually at Cammeringham were you? Right. So that would have been, it changed its name from RAF Ingham to Cammeringham in November 1944, so if you knew it as Cammeringham, you must have gone there from November ‘44 onwards at some point. So, if you haven’t already got them we can get hold of your service records – you’ve got them have you? No. We can get your service records from Northolt. There’s a lady called Margaret Goddard.
MM: Oh yeah, I know her, yeah.
Int: And she can find your records, which will show the dates you went to each station, which is good for you, and for your family.
MM: I remember there used to be NAAFI canteen on that river in Lincolnshire.
Int: In Lincolnshire. NAAFI, NAAFI was.
Int: Was a NAAFI canteen in the middle of Lincoln was there?
MM: Yes, I can remember the river was you know.
Int: In the middle of Lincoln, there is a -
MM: Yeah. Not far from the Cathedral, you know.
Int: Yes, yes I know the one you mean. There’s a big, large, well they call it a pond, but it’s called Brayford, Brayford Pond, with all the barges.
MM: That’s right, that was NAAFI.
Int: Oh right, okay. What, can you remember much about Cammeringham, RAF Cammeringham? Just to help your memory, the airfield was on the top of the hill and the Station Headquarters was down in the village of Ingham. Does that ring a bell at all?
MM: Well you see at that time they knew that we never go back to Poland and a lot of people try to register, go to Argentina, to United States, you know, Canada.
Int: Oh, as part of the Polish Resettlement Act, yes, but you decided to stay at Cammeringham for a while.
MM: Actually, I was going to [chuckle] Argentina!
Int: Right, okay.
MM: But I met one chap, he was from Argentina, he was in Polish Army, and he said never go to Argentina!
Int: And why was that then?
MM: Because is, you got problems over there and he say I wouldn’t advise you to go to Argentina. So I’ve still got the papers, you know!
Int: That you could have decided to go there, but instead you stayed in England.
MM: Yes.
Int: And when you were at Cammeringham did you do any of your armourer jobs, was that with loading the machine guns or were you an armourer that dealt with the bombs?
MM: I had a, that was, from Cammeringham and was posted to 48MU, in Wrexham.
Int: Okay. Right.
MM: That was, I used to, quite lot of, because guns and machine guns, you know, in Wrexham. You know, Holyhead, if you go that way.
Int: So in Wrexham it was a big store for machine guns?
MM: RAF station!
Int: Oh, it was an RAF station was it, at Wrexham, right, okay. Was your job to maintain them or was it more for storage?
MM: Sort out, you know, quite a lot of them used to go to the, check them in the temperature and everything, you know.
Int: So did that include dismantling, taking machine guns to bits, and refurbish them, change the barrels and things?
MM: From the, yeah.
Int: Right. So is that a job that you could do with your eyes closed, when, at the time, you became very skilled at that.
MM: Well, yeah.
Int: Yeah. And did you get a chance to fire any of the guns on the practice ranges at all, or not? Or were you just purely putting the guns together?
MM: Not in the air.
Int: Was that a bit, was that a good job? Was it a boring job?
MM: Oh, you know. Well you know, somebody has to do it!
Int: Somebody has to do it. Before you went to Wrexham, if we could just go back one step to when you were at Cammeringham, what did you actually do at Cammeringham?
MM: Actually I was doing, there were no jobs, everybody was thinking what I’m going to do, you know.
Int: Right, so you were still in the Polish Air Force, but there wasn’t a job for you at the time? So you spent all [emphasis] of that time training and then you got to Cammeringham and there was no job for you.
MM: Well that was, you know, that was probably closed that station, you were just only waiting for the different people going different countries, you know.
Int: But there was a lot of Polish airmen at Cammeringham at the time, yes?
MM: Yes. Some of them they went back to Poland, you know, but.
Int: It’s not a good story, no. I’ve heard several accounts from people where they went, [beep] especially if they’d been in the Polish Air Force, and then they were arrested by the Soviets, and the Russians, and some were executed, which is er, just for being in the Polish Air Force. A lot of your colleagues were at Faldingworth, which was just about five miles down the road, a lot of them, and the Polish 300 Squadron were there. So you went to Wrexham and you did the 48MU job at Wrexham, how long did you stay at Wrexham, can you remember?
MM: [Pause] No, I said, I was, because my station was er, in Framlingham.
Int: Framlingham. Yes. I’ve heard of it, I’ve heard of Framlingham, right.
MM: There was er, and I was only been attachment to the 48MU’s just only, you know, so I wrote the letter to them: can you call me back to, on my station. So you know, so they, yeah, I went back and say look, now you have to go to London and you have to look for a job.
Int: And that was, so that was the end of your Polish Air Force career.
MM: Yeah. And I stay in South Kensington, and for looking for the job because only job they was offering us is coal mine, you know. [Laugh]
Int: Or engineering? Did they offer you engineering?
MM: Engineering? No, no chance. No chance.
Int: No? So what kind of job did you get in the end then? What was your first job, being a civilian after the war?
MM: They told me you to go to the coal mine, I said no, I never go to coal mine. [Laugh] But all, so they decided to last, and I was from National Health making glasses. Spectacles glasses.
Int: Okay, right, okay, that was here in London was it?
MM: Yes, in London yes, in Camden Passage, in Islington. So I said all right, I’ll go that, but I wouldn’t go to the coal mine. [Laugh]
Int: And when did you meet your wife?
MM: [Cough] Oh, that was [muttering] 19, about 1960 [pause], 1960.
Int: And was she Polish or was she English?
MM: She’s Polish.
Int: She was Polish. And had she been a WAAF during the, a Polish WAAF during the years?
MM: No, no, no. She wasn’t, no.
Int: She’d just come across from Poland, okay. I notice looking at your medals you have the, is it the Tute Militaire? The very first one that you have here. Can you tell me a little bit about how you were awarded that, that medal?
MM: This?
Int: No, the very first one, this one here.
MM: Oh, that, no, no.
Int: This one there.
MM: That was Freedom for Polish, Freedom.
Int: Oh, that’s the Polish Freedom one is it? Right, okay. So that was awarded in about -
MM: At the Embassy.
Int: At 1990, or ’91 when Poland got its freedom.
MM: I have somewhere, upstairs, the letters, that was yes, was in the Ambassy, in London.
Int: Going back to your time in the Polish Air Force again, do you have any funny stories, any funny things, because with your fellow kind of airmen, the Polish airmen, you must have done some funny things then.
MM: Well it was funny stories, you know because when it was in Halton you were only allowed to go out for [cough] eleven, you know, well not twelve o’clock, yeah, before twelve you must be.
Int: You must be back before midnight, yes.
MM: But some of them was climbing through the windows! [Laughter]
Int: And did they get caught, or not?
MM: Yeah, what happened, and the sergeant was checking every bed, and somebody was going to each bed and was like saying yes, he’s in, he’s in, but he’s out!
Int: And then he’s sneaking back to his own bed, good. When you were there, you obviously had the big dormitories, the barrack rooms where you all slept in, what was the food like? Was the food good at Halton? Because it was English food I presume, not Polish food.
MM: That was the, actually, no, it was good food there, yeah, sausages, you know.
Int: Plenty of food, plenty of food?
MM: Yeah. And usually that was prisoner of war working in the cookhouse.
Int: What, German prisoners of war or Italian?
MM: Italians.
Int: Italians. That could be a good thing if you like Italian food!
MM: And they was free to go to the cinema, everywhere!
Int: Really!
MM: Yeah!
Int: But you couldn’t go out after twelve o’clock at night! Huh. That’s very strange, isn’t it. Yeah.
MM: And they used to sell the jewellery because, well, they had some watches and the you know, they was free, they didn’t want to go back to, escape to Germany.
Int: They were happy to stay in England then.
MM: Stay. Otherwise they probably go to Russian Front, you know. Yes, they got.
Int: If we can go all the way back to the beginning of the story, are you okay, do you want a break, are you okay?
MM: It’s all right, yes.
Int: Going back to talking about Palestine and the time you were In the desert with Rommel, and fighting Rommel, and you were saying you were allowed you to drive, what was your job, what kind of job did you do?
MM: Well I was testing the tanks.
Int: You were testing the tanks?
MM: On the desert, because that Bill, they repair, because they, mechanics you know, to learn how to repair the tanks was take time, he said look, we going to repair, I teach you how to drive, on the desert, and that’s you know.
Int: So as well as repairing the tanks then, as a mechanic, you also did, you had to go and test drive them as well?
MM: No, I didn’t repair, I only just test.
Int: Oh, you were only doing the test driving then. And was that fun? Especially as you were young. Driving tanks round the desert?
MM: Oh yes! And that chap, after the, Alamein, he was going, his name was Bill, and he’s Australian, and he would just say, I got nothing else to give you, he just cut his button from his coat and give it to me. So I kept that all the time.
Int: Oh! Did Bill make it through the war?
MM: I don’t know what happened, I don’t know, might have been killed, I don’t know. But what happened, in a Polish club in London, I met there, she was Wing Commander from the Australian Embassy, and I told her I got the button which is that Bill give me, and oh, was probably my grandad, so I don’t know. What regiment he was? But I didn’t ask him!
Int: But he was in Palestine at that time then was he? Yes?
MM: And I give it to her and she says she’s going to find out, you know, the name of that is.
Int: That sounds like a needle in a haystack, but you never know, you never know. So do you attend a lot of the Polish events that happen in London, at the Social Club at Hammersmith?
MM: Yeah, we go so often. Usually, we usually have the dinners once a month, you know.
Int: Well I mean, obviously, I met you, you might remember, in September, at the Polish Memorial, Northolt. It’s great to chat with you, what I was going to do now was just, I was gonna have a rest, just in case you wanted a cup of tea or something, we can talk a little more. Cause I know sometimes it’s, you’re thinking back and your mouth can get very dry, can’t it, especially when we’re just talking and it’s a thing. So I’ll leave the camera on, but if you’re happy, I don’t know whether you’d like a drink of water or a cup of tea or coffee?
MM: No, that’s all right, no.
[Other]: Dad, but where were you when the war finished? That’s the bit I don’t get.
Int: Right. Were you at Framlington?
[Other]: Where were you actually, when the actual physically the war finished?
Int: When it was VE Day kind of thing?
[Other]: Where was he?
MM: [Pause] 1945.
Int: Where were you actually, where were you stationed, at that time, when it was VE Day? Can you remember which station you were on?
MM: 1945, which station, I probably was still in Halton.
Int: Did they not have big celebrations?
MM: No. Because they didn’t invite for the -
Int: For the Polish.
MM: For Britain.
Int: To go to London, did you have them, if you were at Halton, or Wrexham, or even Cammeringham, wherever you were at, when it was VE Day, did they have a party on the station?
MM: Wrexham, we only had one celebration then was when Prince Charlie was born, 1948, and we had a barrel of beer, we had drunk that, you know, on his birthday.
Int: So you were still in the Polish Air Force then, in 1948, so that must have been almost the last year, because most of the Polish Air Force, from what I’m led to understand, obviously straight after the war, after VE Day, along with the problems where they wouldn’t let the Polish parade through London because of the Yalta Agreement.
MM: That’s right.
Int: With Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill, and I know that’s why they had the Resettlement Act and they had to absorb the Polish Air Force into the Royal Air Force properly, just so Stalin couldn’t get -
MM: We had the contract two years, Polish Resettlement Course.
Int: And I think it was 1948 was the last, when the last Polish squadron was disbanded, so that probably ties all of that in. It would be interesting, you know, if your daughter Joanne’s able to, on your behalf, to get the, your service records from Margaret, or a copy of them.
[Other]: Yeah, I can do that.
Int: Cause then it’ll show -
MM: I know her. Yes, I’ll go and see her in.
Int: She’ll be able to photocopy them and then give you a copy and at least you’ll be able to read all the dates on, and if it’s, I think if it’s very similar to the RAF’s one, it’s just a piece of almost brown card, two sides, which shows all of your, all the stations you were at and any courses you did, and even things like when you were on the sick or on leave, it’s all on one card that they did at the time. It’s all handwritten.
[Other]: Cause I’m just a bit confused here dad, so you went from Halton to Lincolnshire and then Wrexham, yeah.
Int: Yes.
[Other]: And then you went to London.
MM: To London.
[Other]: What year?
MM: I came to London to look for job.
[Other]: What year? Cause you were saying you were under the RAF until 1948.
MM: That was Polish Resettlement Course.
[Other]: So I’m just, and I just. It’s all right, I’m getting there. A bit confused.
Int: So, if we get things in the right order: you went to Halton, and then from Halton you went to Cammeringham did you, or did you go to Wrexham first, after Halton?
[Other]: Cammeringham.
MM: No, Cammeringham.
Int: Cammeringham.
MM: And from Cammeringham I went to Wrexham.
Int: To Wrexham, and then to Fram –
MM: Framlingham.
Int: Framlingham or Framlington? I’ll have to check exactly where that is. And then from Framlington that was it: were out of the Polish Air Force then?
MM: Sent us to London for.
Int: To find a job.
MM: That’s right.
[Other]: When they sent you to London, did you stay in an RAF base, or no? Were you private dwellings?
Int: Was it a private house, or was it still in barracks in London?
MM: No, no, in London that was hostel, South Kensington, was houses was probably very expensive, London houses. That was big hostel over that square, that was square, I would call it square.
Int: Straight after the war.
[Other]: So dad, where were you when you, when the announcement of the Second World War was over? When Churchill said, we are not at war any more, where were you? [Polish]
MM: I said I was still in Halton.
Int: You were still in Halton.
MM: In 1945.
Int: So 1945 you were in Halton. Then you moved to Cammeringham in ’46 because I mean Cammeringham was one of the Polish Resettlement Units. And Dunholme Lodge.
MM: That’s right, and they posted us to Wrexham.
Int: It was still under the kind of the Air Ministry’s control.
[Other]: Umbrella.
Int: While they did some training and they did, there was quite a few training: carpentry, electrical. They did all the courses there so they just used it as an RAF station but it was more of a training camp for training purposes.
MM: That’s right.
Int: And then obviously the MUs, which are the Maintenance Units but they normally store, big store camps, so obviously Wrexham was a big store camp where all the machine guns were coming back and they were being -
MM: From there the Wellingtons and all that, big er -
[Other]: So really, until the war finished you were based?
MM: At Halton.
[Other]: Until 1945 and then after that the Resettlement Act came in and by 1948 you were discharged to civilian life. Right, I’ve got that now. Okay. But when the Second World War finished, what happened, because that was a big news! So was there no celebration? Do you remember what you were doing when you found out the war was ended. I mean.
MM: I was still at Halton.
Int: You were still at Halton.
[Other]: But what were you doing?
MM: There still was training.
[Other]: [Polish]
Int: [Beep] Did they have a party perhaps, a big party at Halton, that day?
MM: At Halton, even, because what’s his name, Bevan, and he asked, give us a letter and give us, every members of the Polish er, boys, been given, to go to Poland or, or were you going to join the Polish Resettlement Course.
Int: Yes. Because of the shortage of jobs, he was the Trade Union, Bevan was the Trade Union man, wasn’t he, and they set the Trade Unions up, and don’t get me wrong but his point of view was, he didn’t want the Poles in Britain.
MM: Britain, no. That’s right.
Int: And that’s why, I think that’s why they only offered the Polish military –
MM: Coal mine.
Int: Ex military the coal mine, and some of them got into the steel works, the foundries, almost the jobs that nobody else wanted to do, so it was very restrictive, and obviously because the Trade Unions came in straight after the war, that’s when they were created, and that was very much in the National Health Service and everything else, but that’s when they said jobs for the Britons, you know, it was almost like, Churchill was Conservative, although he led the Coalition through the war years then he was, straight after the war he was kicked out and the Labour government came in and that’s how the Trade Unions came about, and that’s why, the Agreement was obviously made at quite a high ministerial level to have the Polish Resettlement Act.
MM: That’s right.
Int: Of 1947 I think it was, to protect the Polish servicemen and women that wanted to stay in the UK, or it allowed them to go to the Empire countries, Canada, even America although that’s not an Empire country, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and - .
MM: All different countries.
Int: Yes, yes.
[Other]: But Dad, you misunderstand. I’m going to say it in Polish. [Polish]
MM: In Halton.
[Other]: [Polish]
MM: I can’t remember that.
Int: No.
[Other]: I was asking him what he was, the moment he found out when the Second World War finished. I remember when Diana died. I can tell you exactly what I was doing.
Int: Yes.
MM: We didn’t celebrate because was Yalta.
Int: Yes, because of Yalta a few weeks before this, and that meant you’d lost Poland.
MM: We didn’t celebrate.
[Other]: I see, okay, that’s a different side.
Int: That’s probably why, yes because I mean Yalta was really more Roosevelt and Stalin; Churchill was just a puppet.
MM: Puppet, yes.
[Other]: That explains that, yeah.
Int: He was part of the three but he had to go along with what the two big powerbrokers wanted and they carved up Europe at Yalta and Poland unfortunately was the one that suffered because it got kind of.
MM: Roosevelt was very sick man, he was very sick, he was actually dying and Truman took it over, you know, after Roosevelt.
[Other]: But in those four years that you were based at Halton, did you witness bombings in England, you know, saw the active stuff, you know, the active service. Obviously you get the planes ready for them to go off to battle, obviously I’m guessing here.
Int: Halton being a training -
MM: Training.
Int: Was all the four years that you did at Halton, was that all training or were you an instructor then?
MM: No, all training.
Int: Just all training. And was that just [emphasis] for training to maintain the machine guns or did you do bombs, fusing up the bombs and everything?
MM: Bombs, fusing, [indecipherable] everything.
Int: So as an armourer you did all the jobs.
MM: And then rockets.
Int: And the rockets.
MM: They been before well, they was first to use the aeroplane.
Int: To fire the rockets, right at the end of the war, so you had to be trained up to do all of that.
MM: That’s right.
Int: Whilst you were at Halton were there any air raids, at night, where the sirens went off and the bombs dropped at Halton, or not?
MM: What happened, for about each, because Air Ministry was worried when start bombing London, and they move us to Cosford, RAF station Cosford.
Int: Right, okay, yes.
MM: And I assume the Air Ministry wants to move to Halton, that’s, so they move and stay at Cosford, Wolverhampton, you know that.
Int: Yes. Over in the West Midlands, yes.
MM: We stayed there, I can’t remember how many, three months or something.
Int: Three months. And did you go back to Halton afterwards?
MM: Oh yes.
Int: So was just for three months they moved you out of Halton, over to Cosford near Wolverhampton. And did your training continue there, or did you do something special?
MM: Yes, it was training.
Int: Just normal training.
MM: Yes.
Int: At Cosford. And was that quieter at Cosford? Was there not as many air raids?
MM: No, well, was different was because the Cosford was, because Halton was, had the equipment for training but Cosford, you know.
Int: Didn’t have it. So what did you do while you were there then, at Cosford?
MM: Still, you know.
Int: Yes. And was there an airfield, as in where planes aircraft could land at Cosford or was it just a factory kind of?
MM: No, I think that was only for factory.
Int: Just like a training, in a factory, yes.
[Other]: Dad, sorry, why were you trained for so long, for four years, you know, normally now it’s just for three months off you go to, I just, why were they training you for so long?
MM: Don’t forget, we stake everything [emphasis].
[Other]: Yeah, but dad, it’s war, people, they need men.
MM: But you don’t. It’s not only that, you’re training each, even, even if you write there how to kill the person, you know, all different things we didn’t know.
[Other]: But that’s -
MM: Some, if you want to kill the person, if he’s going to start writing and it’s blow up his face and it kill them.
Int: I think what Joanne was perhaps meaning was, normally training would be maybe one year, maybe a little bit, but because it was war you would imagine that they wanted to get you trained very quickly and then straight out to the airfields. The question was -
MM: But not bomb everything targets, it’s not that simple like that.
[Other]: I know dad.
MM: It takes, you know.
[Other]: But four years in a war’s a long time, in a situation of war.
MM: Yeah, don’t forget four years, it’s not only that, guns. [Pause]
[Other]: I’ve lost you.
Int: So during your time at Halton, as well as going to Cosford, did you have small amounts of time where you went off to other RAF airfields to actually practice what you’d been trained, or not?
MM: No.
Int: No, you just stayed at Halton.
MM: They was trying to get more information, you know, and instructors who came from London and give us all the guns, well guns and ammunition and material which is TNT, you know, and so how to.
Int: It sounds a little bit like your training was more experimental training.
MM: Yes, yes.
Int: Not the standard training so any new bombs or new rockets – am I going down the right road here?
MM: Yes. Everything was secret and that’s why the training was so secret.
Int: Right, we’re starting to drill down into a little bit now.
[Other]: So, did you have to sign the secret service act?
Int: The Official Secrets Act.
MM: Well, we have to, you know. The service was secret.
Int: I meant as opposed to maybe an ordinary [emphasis] Polish Air Force armourer, that did his basic training and went straight out onto a squadron.
MM: Oh yes. That’s three month course.
Int: Yes, that’s the three months course. So in fact the time at Halton, although you said it was training, was it more, it sounds like it wasn’t basic training, it was specialist training as each new munitions came out, right.
MM: Yeah.
Int: So you were seeing how things worked and to improve it, so yes, you weren’t so much a student as a team that were there to um, I don’t know how to describe it to you, I’m trying not to put words into your mouth! So were you still in like a classroom situation at Halton?
MM: Yes.
Int: Oh right. But they would bring something new in and then talk about it. And what job did they give you to do? Was it to see how to make it better, or was it just purely to take it apart and put it together? I don’t want to put words into your mouth, I’m trying to find out exactly what you did at Halton.
MM: We usually, they like electrician was coming from London he was going to teach us electrician and some extras you know, which is, came round once a week and teach us electrics; it’s not only guns, everything you must know.
[Other]: What I think we’re establishing dad, is that you were, you’re right, you were training but you were given devices, or guns, or whatever, and they wanted you to try it out, it’s more that -
Int: Test and evaluation or something.
[Other]: Yes. You had your basic training of three months, yes. Everyone does three months.
MM: No, three years.
[Other]: Yeah, but. No.
MM: Basic training that’s only came only there for, for -
Int: I think what Joanne’s trying to ask the question is, you had your basic armourer’s training, at Halton – how to be an armourer basically. Your basic bombs and bullets, but then after that at Halton, you obviously specialised, at Halton, with maybe experimental bombs or experimental rockets, and new things; anything that was new. Cause if you had an electrician that came from London specially to Halton, to talk with you and to teach you, it sounds like what you were doing was more experimental work, maybe I don’t know. Hmm. Is it possible?
[Other]: How many was there in the class at one time, dad? Ten, twenty, fifty? Do you remember? And was there only one class or was there lots of classes?
MM: [Pause] |Well we had, it’s not only that, we had mathematics and everything, turrets, and you know, you have to, how to operate turrets for machine guns for the er, prepare the aircraft to, for the pilot to fly that Spitfire and you know, it’s not simple as.
Int: I know, I fully appreciate, it’s a very complicated.
MM: We started, you see you have to, to, must, it’s not only one turret you’ve got, all you’ve got different one top and bottom.
Int: Different kinds of makes and turret, yes, certainly. It’s interesting, maybe when you get the records from Margaret, it will actually say on there and remind you, you may well have been part, although you did your basic armourer’s training at Halton, perhaps they kept you at Halton, as part of a test and evaluation section and that’s why you stayed at Halton, that’s why you didn’t go to an airfield because the people from London would bring you up, he Air Ministry, would bring new things for you to look at and along with your colleagues.
MM: Because some people, some they decided they got enough and they went for the course for three months and came as a sergeant.
Int: Oh, okay!
MM: They didn’t want to continue.
Int: They didn’t want to continue, no. So it does sound like what you were doing there was some kind of specialisation, after your basic armourers training, so. And then that’s perhaps why you went to Wrexham afterwards, although you went to Cammeringham first didn’t you. But that was at the end of the war, so maybe they just used your skills as an armourer to deal with the machine guns and everything else because you were quite. What rank were you, that’s an interesting, that will give us, help a little.
MM: Well AC1, you know, when we finished.
Int: AC1 when you finished! Crikey. That’s interesting.
MM: We didn’t, we had.
Int: Right, and that was, AC1 is just aircraftsman first class. So that’s kind of the first or the second rung on the ladder, so after four years
MM: After everybody finished at Halton, they was first class.
Int: But you said some people could come out quickly and become a sergeant.
MM: Yes, they didn’t want to continue.
Int: So they didn’t want to do the armourers job.
MM: No, no, it’s not only armourers, they didn’t want continue because was different sections at Halton.
Int: Right, okay.
MM: It was not only the armourer, there was different sections.
Int: So they could change to a different section and become sergeant very quickly.
MM: Some of them engineer and so on, so that was different.
Int: I think it’ll be, it’s certainly worth you trying to get in touch with Margaret and see if you can get your records because that might, you might suddenly find that you were doing a very important job and you didn’t quite realise how important a job it was!
[Other]: But from what I’m hearing dad, because I’ve never heard of any of this, what I’m hearing is that, my understanding is that you, your division, whatever, at Halton, you were doing some secret service stuff, you know, you were examining.
Int: Possibly, yes.
[Other]: And you were probably told [emphasis] that you were under the training umbrella but you weren’t really, I think. [Beep]
Int: There’s a little bit more to this that perhaps they didn’t even tell you [emphasis]. They just said oh, you were doing some more training.
[Other]: So you were just told training so that if anything happened to you you’d say I was just doing training. In fact you were probably doing some.
Int: Some more interesting work.
[Other]: Without you realising you were doing.
Int: Which might be part of the reason as well, that you actually went to Cosford, to do some more things, but that you would think as just ordinary. Cause Cosford now, Halton and Cosford are still in the RAF now. Halton is the -
MM: No, Cosford, the reason we went Cosford because –
Int: They were doing something at Halton.
MM: They was bombing London.
Int: Oh, they were bombing! Right, okay.
MM: And the Air Ministry, I think they was trying to move to Halton.
Int: Right, that was the reason.
MM: That’s probably the reason, they move us from.
Int: Just, yes, they just give you some space at Halton possibly.
[Other]: Where is Halton, sorry.
Int: Halton is down kind of Aylesbury kind of way, that kind of.
[Other]: So it’s quite relatively near London still.
Int: Yes, it’s part of the old Rothschild’s estate.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
[Other]: And Northolt is the London base.
Int: That’s the one, yes, right just inside the M40.
[Other]: And your connections with Northolt is that you just used to go there?
Int: No, no, it was Cosford, which is over in the West Midlands. I don’t, did you ever go to Northolt during the war years when you were in the Polish Air Force? Or not?
MM: No. Some of them they’re coming from there.
Int: It was 303 Squadron that were based there, which is the Polish fighter squadron.
MM: They was coming for training.
[Other]: To Halton?
Int: To you, to Halton.
MM: You know for the, not only for me but for different engines or -
Int: Yes. So, so from 303 Squadron, the 303 Squadron armourers and the engineering teams for the engines and things used to come to Halton.
MM: They had the best in Halton.
Int: To get refresher training on new guns or new types of engines for the aircraft.
MM: They had special camp in Halton.
Int: Within Halton, right.
[Other]: It’s all kind of secretive.
Int: It’s kind of interesting, yes.
[Other]: This is quite intriguing.
MM: Sometimes when the cookhouse was closed for some reason, we went to the Polish dinner which is 303 Squadron used to have.
Int: Oh, they had a canteen, yes.
MM: We some Polish dinner!
Int: Proper Polish food, oh good! [Laugh] It’s interesting because as I say Halton is still there now, they use it for the new recruits just in any trade that come into the RAF. So Halton is still there. Cosford is still there and they do a lot of the training. In fact I think the armourers do their training at Cosford now, which is quite funny: that’s the complete circle has moved round. So both those stations are still there. Halton hasn’t really changed much, so if you ever got a chance to go there.
[Other]: I think Dad, you’ve been there.
MM: I’ve been to Halton, yes.
Int: Cause there’s just like the road that runs through the middle and there’s the top half of the camp and the bottom half of the camp.
[Other]: Yes, he’s been there. Okay.
MM: They use to march, they was calling Polish Avenue, and when they finish, they plant some trees, and they’re great.
Int: Huge big trees now, yeah.
MM: Polish Avenue.
Int: And they called that Polish Avenue did they? I’ll have to go and look. Next time I go to Halton, I’ll look and see if they still call it Polish Avenue.
[Other]: Thank you very much. So dad -
MM: We used to have, every morning we used to march to that, you know, after breakfast, to, to training.
Int: To your training area.
MM: At our school.
Int: Was it, can you remember now where, your barracks, when you lived in the barracks at Halton, were they at the bottom of the hill or the top of the hill? Could you, you probably can’t remember.
MM: The, the barracks, you can’t miss them because Polish Avenue, you’ve got Polish Avenue and that, as you’re walking, on the right hand side, that the barracks.
Int: That was your barracks.
MM: Two barracks, there was three, two barracks was. All different.
Int: And in your room, in your barrack room, it was just all Polish Air Force was it? Or was it a mixture of RAF and Polish?
MM: No. There was just two, two big barracks.
Int: Yes, but in the actual room, where you had maybe ten or twenty beds, in the room.
MM: There were many beds!
Int: But they were all Polish in that big room were they, or the English as well as Polish?
MM: No, no, no just Polish.
Int: Just the Polish.
MM: English were different.
Int: Yes. And when it came to special occasions during the year, special Polish occasions, including Christmas, did you have a Polish church, at Halton, that you could go to? A military church?
MM: Yes, yes. When Hitler declared war on the United States and we had, I remember one Christmas which is, the American came round and we had a big dinner.
Int: On the base, and did you -
MM: Yes. No, at Halton.
Int: Oh, at Halton. And di they bring a lot of extra food, special food from America?
MM: They had, you know, all different.
Int: Chocolate and things like that, yes. And when you were at Halton did you play any sport?
MM: Oh yes, swimming, we must swim, you know, you got, it doesn’t matter which is winter or summer still had to [indecipherable] had to learn must, you know, swim.
Int: I didn’t know whether you were perhaps a sportsman and you liked to play either football, or swimming or anything.
MM: Oh yes we usually have, used to have I think every Wednesday.
Int: Every Wednesday was sports day was it.
MM: And that was Mr Brown. [Chuckle]
Int: And Mr Brown was what, he was the instructor for sport?
MM: Instructor yes, for sport, yes. Was very nice chap.
Int: What’s your, what’s the memories, maybe one or two memories that you always have when you think back about Halton, anything to do with Halton at all. What’s the memories that you have, that you remember, if you were going to tell maybe two stories about Halton, what would those stories be?
MM: Well you know, the stories is completely different stories for our Wing Commander he was, well at that time he had a car, you know, Wing Commander what’s his name? Newbury. Newbury? And as he was coming to, to the station and two chap was walking, and he say can I give you a lift, you know, it was that station, and says oh yes please. And he say don’t tell the guards I left, don’t go through there, go to the main.
Int: And that was you was it? Oh, I thought it was you that he gave a lift to, but he gave a couple of guys a lift!
MM: He did.
Int: And at weekends, did you get time off at Halton? Did you get time off to go to the local town?
MM: Oh yes, we used to go to Aylesbury dancing, you know and also do dancing in Halton as well.
Int: And when you went off for your day off, or weekend, did you have to go in uniform?
MM: Yes.
Int: So uniform everywhere then. You didn’t meet any nice ladies then, when you were dancing? [Chuckles]
MM: Well!
[Other]: It’s all right dad!
Int: Good. Well that’s lovely. The only other thing I probably, we’ve talked an awful lot about Halton and I think there’s probably some more interesting little stories to come out of Halton. Could we, if you don’t mind, could we just go back to Cammeringham, how long do you think you were at Cammeringham for? Was it literally a couple of months, or was it a year?
MM: No, didn’t stay long.
Int: You didn’t stay very long.
MM: No. That’s why we posted.
Int: Yes.
MM: To the, from Cammeringham been posted to the Wales, you know that.
Int: To Wrexham.
MM: Wrexham.
Int: To Wrexham. So, you were saying that when you were at Cammeringham there wasn’t really a job for you, there was nothing to do.
MM: Cammeringham was just only for staying people.
Int: For the Polish resettlement.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
Int: So when you were there what did you do, each day, was there anything to do at all?
MM: Not really. No. The one chap he had a nice dog, and people’s giving him, sometimes give the dog penny, goes to the NAAFI, took penny and got the cake. [Laugh]
Int: Got the cake! That was the dog brought the cake back!
MM: Oh no!
Int: No, you got the cake for the dog!
MM: No, was for the dog!
Int: Ah right, I’m with you, right, okay. Can you remember when you were at Cammeringham, did you live in the village, in the barracks in the village, or up at the airfield?
MM: The airfield and the train was stopped, like where I was in the first squadron, and the train stop, you just put the hand, and the train stopped and you just can go to Ipswich or that place. Like bus now!
Int: Yes, oh man, that’s interesting.
MM: And a lot of people just playing the cards, you know, the cards.
Int: Yes. And that’s it that was it really, you played cards all day and then had your breakfast, your dinner and your kind of evening meal so that was it: there was nothing for you to do. Most of what’s, well, there is very little left at Cammeringham, or RAF Ingham now. There are a few, just a few nissen huts, a few buildings. The rank that you were at Cammeringham, I imagine the building that we’ve, that we’re renovating, was the building you would have eaten in because it was the airmen’s mess, um, oops, is it the other side round, wait a minute, yup, there we go, [paper shuffling] it probably looks very, very different, and that’s the thing with the kitchen, there was a dining room, and another dining room the other side, and that would have been the Junior ranks mess, up on the edge of the airfield, so I imagine, and that’s what it would have looked like, a computer drawing, so I imagine that’s where you would have eaten. You can hang on to that because it’s, some of it’s in Polish and some of it‘s in English, it just tells you a little bit about what we are doing at RAF Ingham, and you can see Cammeringham there, because obviously it was Cammeringham at the end of the war. It might jog a few memories. And we’ve got the web site as well which has got more photographs on it. I think, did I give you one of our cards beforehand? Did I?
[Other]: I’ve got your card.
Int: You’ve got my card, right that’s okay. But we’ve obviously got the web site and we’ve got a twitter now but we just use it purely and simply to put pictures on there and a little bit about what we’ve done the previous week when we’re doing all the works. We don’t use it as a chat room thing.
MM: And is another one which is from Halton, Sikorsky, when Sikorsky been killed, Mrs Sikorsky, and she invite me, I don’t know, another two chaps, for dinner to her, you know.
Int: To her house.
MM: Well, it’s a big house. And actually we came to London, she was in Baker Street, she was waiting for us, and the first thing we went to Madame Tussaud, and Sikorsky was already in Madame Tussaud. From Madame Tussaud we just walk maybe ten minutes, to big house, that policeman was standing in there [chuckle] and they prepare big meal you know, yes, we stay over there. And the evening we went to the, to the Piccadilly which is what er, the place, what you call it, because that Sikorsky had two sons and they was in Navy or you know, and they took us to the Prince of Wales, on Piccadilly, that was: Prince of Wales Theatre.
Int: The theatre, yes, yes. So you went there that evening. They took you for a night out.
MM: Yeah. The Prince of Wales. I remember that.
Int: And why were chosen to go to the evening meal?
MM: I don’t know!
Int: You hadn’t done something special you were being rewarded for?
MM: No, I don’t know!
Int: And what did your officers say, best behaviour and?
MM: No! It was free over there.
Int: That was free, okay, good.
MM: Yes, that was Prince of Wales.
Int: And when you went for this night, for the meal with General Sikorsky’s wife, and the sons, were you at Halton at that point?
MM: Yes.
Int: Oh, you were still at Halton.
MM: Yes, yes, at Halton.
Int: Again, very interesting, very interesting. Mmm. It creates more questions than answers.
MM: And Sikorsky, always, he was against the, you know, the Polish Army, and the army in Warsaw. He was against that, he said you not going to win with Stalin and because well, two hundred fifty, two hundred fifty thousand people been killed, or you know; destroyed Warsaw completely. But, and he was completely against that, [beep] Sikorsky.
Int: So he didn’t want to fight in Warsaw, he wanted to just -
MM: No, because you’re not going to win.
Int: Not going to win and it would just wipe out –
MM: And they just Ignored that, his advice.
Int: What, I haven’t asked you yet, but I should ask you. Where were you born? What’s your town or city you were born in, in Poland?
MM: The, in 1939 the Lvov which is [indecipherable] there was prisoner of war, er Russian soldiers taken to, from Lvov northward up to Podlesice and their massive [emphasis] horses and prisoners, you know. My mum, she gave some bread to me and I went over and throw it because I, well was not enough food probably, and their horses, massive [emphasis] horses, maybe some of them been probably killed in Kharkiv that time and when, when, because when they first er, I think they in the country, but first, because I used to live not far from railway station, and there was Polish policemen all, that took over by Ukraine and Jewish people, because of us welcoming the, Stalin in that way.
Int: Yes. So you’ve mentioned that you’ve been back to Poland since, did you say you’ve been back to Poland since it’s been free, since Poland was free? In ‘90 or ’91?
MM: Oh, yes.
Int: In 1990 ’91 was it, ‘91 when it became a Republic again, I can’t quite remember, with Lech Walesa?
MM: After that, yeah.
Int: So you haven’t been back to your town or your city to see it? No, you haven’t, no.
[Other]: Dad’s only been back to my mum’s side. [Indecipherable]
Int: Right.
[Other]: But can you tell Geoff where you were born dad? It’s what he asked you!
Int: Yes, I know, yeah.
MM: In the, Bokievka.
[Other]: Bokievka, which is on the Russian side.
Int: It’s on the Russian side then. Or is it still in Poland?
[Other]: It is now -
MM: No, that was, that time, when I born we was not Russian.
[Other]: It was Poland.
MM: No, it wasn’t, it wasn’t even part of Poland.
[Other]: What was it?
MM: Austria.
Int: Oh right.
[Other]: What? So when you were born dad, you were born in Austria?
MM: Austria. Because –
[Other]: Huh? But all the documents it says in Poland.
MM: Well, it’s Poland, yeah, it was Poland, but we been under the Austrian.
Int: Oh, was it the Austro-Hungarian?
MM: Hungarian, yeah.
Int: The Austro-Hungarian kind of part of it, it came up before, post, pre Second World War and all that, possibly.
[Other]: I think where dad now, the village, I think now is Lithuania isn’t it? Or Ukraine?
MM: [Indecipherable] is on the top.
Int: But the village, or the town where you were born -
[Other]: Is now –
Int: Which country is it in now [emphasis]?
[Other]: Lithuania.
Int: Is it Lithuania? Or is it still Poland?
[Other]: What is it then? Ukraine?
MM: Ukraine.
[Other]: Ukraine.
Int: It’s Ukraine, right, okay. So the borders have changed.
MM: Ukraine, Ukraine there.
Int: Okay. Is there anything else you can think of at the moment that you’d like to tell me about your time in the Polish Air Force at all? Anything you might have, because we’ve been talking about so many different subjects, and different times through your time in the Polish Air Force, did you, did you ever, here’s a question, at the end, when you’re finishing in the Polish Air Force, did you, did they allow you to keep any of your badges, or your hat, or anything at all?
MM: Yeah.
Int: Yeah? They allowed you to keep some things. That’s good.
MM: When the coat uniform, when demob only had one uniform, all the rest of them was RAF.
Int: So you kept them for a while. Did you, do you still have any of the badges or did you, have the badges all gone?
MM: I think probably got some buttons.
Int: From your original uniform. That’s very good.
MM: But er, well, we kept the uniform and everything.
Int: Well I hope that at some point in the near future, depending on how things go, we’re obviously hoping to open the Centre, maybe not this year, it might be next year now because we’re waiting for Heritage Lottery Fund, but then we’d love to invite you up, with your family, to come and see what we’re doing in Lincolnshire.
[Other]: Yeah? Do that dad.
Int: We are looking the big Memorial Garden, with the Polish Memorials in it, we’re hoping to open on the 26th of May this next year, with His Excellency the Polish Ambassador’s coming up and it’s going to be that kind of thing.
[Other]: Oh let us know.
Int: Once we’ve firmed everything up.
[Other]: Yeah, let us know.
Int: We will yes, we’ll let you know; it’s a Thursday. We thought that’s a little bit easier for people rather than weekends where it kind of clutters things up a bit, so we’re hoping to do all of that and with all the veterans we’ve found and managed to talk to, and what I have [emphasis] got for you, because you are an armourer, I’ve got some footage, it’s RAF footage, but it’s a training, it’s almost like a training video of how to arm up bombs and how to load and unload.
MM: [Indecipherable]
Int: We’ve got something like that already.
[Other]: What I’m trying to get in my head, is how you can train for four years.
Int: Oh I know, yes.
[Other]: When people dying.
Int: They’d be pushing them out onto the squadrons.
[Other]: They need the men. I just think my dad was told a certain thing to do but they were actually doing a different type of job, if that makes any sense.
Int: Yeah. Test and evaluation in some form, or testing new things, but they were training during that time. Yes, that’d be interesting to dig a little deeper into that. Yes.
[Other]: I can’t, I think dad’s been brainwashed by what they told him.
Int: Well yes, they would have just been doing more training, and more training, but maybe there’s a little bit more. It’ll be interesting to see, when the records come out, if, while you were at Halton, it says you were actually attached to a special section or squadron, you were doing test and evaluation, you know, for these four years, because it’s -
[Other]: So it’s Margaret we need to speak to. Do you have her phone number, dad?
Int: If not, I’ve got it. I can email it to you anyway.
MM: I know her!
[Other]: Well I’m sure you do know her, but we want to get your records. She can send you a copy of your records.
MM: We’re going to the [indecipherable] and she’ll be there.
[Other]: She’ll be there. And you can ask her. You want to ask her there, okay. All right then, we’ll go to –
MM: I’ve got her telephone number.
[Other]: He wants to that, okay.
Int: You might well have already have done this anyway, have you been down to the Sikorsky Institute and Museum? In London, down on King Street.
[Other]: Probably have.
Int: Because that’s the main museum for all kinds of things.
[Other]: Yeah, I’ve been there a very long time ago, but not recently.
Int: If you want to look at any of the archives I think you have to ring them up beforehand and book, to go at a certain time and then they’ll get things out. Once you see what Margaret’s got, it might be a case that they’ve got something to do with that particular Halton thing at, in the Sikorsky Museum. They may be able to bring out photographs, cause they’ve got tremendous, we haven’t even been down there yet to look at stuff to do with the Polish squadrons because we just haven’t had the time, but we know [emphasis] they’ve got film, they’ve got photographs; they’ve got a lot of stuff archived in the Sikorsky Institute.
MM: When I been in training the one, what’s his name, he just went you know, trained and was training and he went and shot down the German plane [laugh] and that Squadron Leader he was, I think he was Canadian, and he was very upset because he say you should stick with the, the, all together, anyhow, but later on he say from now on you are in operational; you done very well.
Int: So there was a Squadron Leader who shot somebody down and he was just there practicing or testing, and then they made him operational. Right.
[Other]: So dad, you were never operational then?
MM: Pardon?
[Other]: Did you shoot down any planes?
MM: No, I didn’t fly!
[Other]: No I know you didn’t fly but did you shoot any planes from ground force, from ground level?
MM: No, ground is different people was doing that, not shooting.
[Other]: So Halton was never attacked?
Int: Quite possibly so, yes, I would imagine they would have had some kind of air raids.
[Other]: So when Halton was attacked by Germans, where would you go? You know, like London, they used to bomb London.
Int: Did you have air raid shelters, under the ground? Were they in the basement of buildings? Or were they separate?
MM: We had air raid shelters, yeah.
Int: You had the shelters to go in.
[Other]: There was a, a drill went, you had to go to air raid, yes, but you didn’t actively shoot down planes.
MM: No, no, that was different people.
[Other]: I know but I’m asking, I’m just asking.
MM: No, there was, you’ve got, with the machine gun you can’t shoot them.
Int: No, exactly. they had to be the bigger, the anti-aircraft guns, yes. Oh, okay. Well, if we find out some more information, I’d like to come back maybe, at another time, for a, to have a chat with you again and we’ll put the camera on a second time. Because there might be some other, we might even find some documents or some photographs or something that explain the kind of job that you were doing a little bit more at Halton and it’ll be interesting to see if there’s a hidden story that perhaps you [emphasis] weren’t aware of, that they were getting you doing.
[Other]: I think they’ve got a [indecipherable] that he wasn’t aware of, that they [emphasis] were aware of.
Int: Because they, you were just, with your Polish colleagues, you were just doing training, but on maybe advanced weapons, and new weapons that were coming out which is why you said it was training because it was new stuff.
[Other]: But it wasn’t training.
MM: Yes, that’s precisely, there you go.
[Other]: But that wasn’t training.
Int: So you were doing testing on new [emphasis] types of weapons because you mentioned rockets didn’t you.
MM: Oh yeah, rockets.
Int: Now rockets didn’t come in until 1944 ’45 and they put them, not under the, not so much under Spitfires, but under Typhoon, the fighter aircraft and Mosquitos.
[Other]: But dad, did you put the bombs onto the planes?
MM: Well –
[Other]: Would you put the bombs under the planes?
MM: I didn’t put them, we just I didn’t do the training.
[Other]: Forget the training, did you physically put the bombs on to the planes?
MM: You don’t understand, that was training only.
[Other]: Well that’s what they told you.
Int: So when you actually did the training, as part of the training did they show you how to attach the rockets under the wings and things?
MM: Yes of course! We were doing that.
[Other]: But did you physically do that?
MM: That was not operational planes!
Int: Yes, I understand, because that was just training, so what they would do is, they would have a plane there, and you would practice putting rockets and things on to.
MM: You put the fuses to the bombs, everything.
Int: So the aircraft was just really for practicing your training, it wasn’t operational; I understand.
MM: Was not operational.
Int: So the aeroplane was almost part of your workshop. That you used it to practice putting the bombs and the rockets on.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
[Other]: But weren’t you kind of interested as to why you were constantly on training? For four years. You know, didn’t you think in your, amongst yourselves, we’re constantly training? Didn’t you think about it?
MM: But aeroplanes so complicated.
[Other]: Yeah, but dad no [sigh].
MM: Turrets and, you know, it’s not so simple you think can learn that in one day.
[Other]: But one year was a sixth of the Second World War! We were only at war for six years so four years is a big chunk.
Int: I think you were very lucky, because you were, it does sound like you were on experimental training for all the new weapons, but they told you that it was just training. But to have kept you there all that time I think you have to have been on a very special testing and evaluation.
MM: Like I prepare wings, then rockets, we have to calculate the pins which is going to shell that – it’s not simple.
[Other]: I’m not saying that dad, but dad.
Int: The timing mechanism on a rocket to when it explodes or was it just explode on impact or at a certain distance or height.
MM: Yes! And when the pilot pressed the button, they used to have a red, or the TNT burns and that shell, that pins.
Int: This, this is an experimental area. They were given rockets, but they’re obviously um, looking, your colleagues knew, they were obviously testing different types of fuse lengths and different fuse, not lengths but timers, for rockets and bombs to work in different ways, so some would be designed to explode above the ground, like an air burst, possibly, ground burst or some other. I think there was a lot of experimental work.
[Other]: So, did you think you were getting bombs to dad that were just straight off the, kind of, um tsk?
Int: I don’t think so much production, these weren’t production, these were, I think what you had Michael was pre-production.
MM: Pre-production. Yes, that makes sense.
Int: It was experimental. People who were coming up with the ideas, bit like Barnes Wallis did with the Bouncing Bomb, and you would have scientists that were going: I want to make this and then your bunch of armourers would be there say, working out how they can make that work.
[Other]: This pre-production. So really they weren’t training, they were testers. But they were told training.
Int: But it was classed as probably training, but they were testing different fuses and different things to work out what would work.
[Other]: Before they went into production.
Int: Possibly so, I think.
[Other]: Right, okay. I think, yes.
Int: I think that’s possibly, just listening to what you’ve told us.
MM: That’s right. Definitely
Int: So I think that’s a very important job, very important. Probably more important than you realised at the time.
[Other]: Yes. So basically you were testing all the prototypes and once you’d tried, agreed. So who would sign it off then? Who was it actually, this is gonna work? Who would sign it off, your chief commander? Who was your top man? Wing Commander, or?
MM: Yeah, would be the Wing Commander was. [Beep]
[Other]: Would have to sign it off.
Int: It would be head of that section probably.
[Other]: Who was head of sections, dad?
Int: Who was in charge of your training area? Would probably have been an officer I presume.
[Other]: Do you remember?
MM: Yes, that was er –
Int: Or a Warrant Officer maybe.
[Other]: So he was probably getting information from other agencies, or other.
Int: Yes, very interesting.
MM: That’s, that’s right.
[Other]: Do you remember the name of your head of training?
MM: Um, just a moment, I try to.
[Other]: Cause I think now, you’ve got your scientists, doing your prototype, next thing.
Int: Coming down to Halton, they’re going: right, here’s the basic idea, let’s see how we can make this work.
[Other]: These guys, let’s, and then -
Int: Look at existing –
[Other]: And then someone signs it off.
Int: Bombs and rockets they’ve got, and whether they needed modifying from the scientists and then they do the armourers part of putting the whole thing together and making it work from an armourer’s point of view. And [emphasis] how do you then fix that onto the underside of the wings or into the bomb bays, because obviously the, all the connections for the bombs and the -
MM: Got some of them, rockets, they’re shooting that, they stick to the tank and exploded.
Int: Yes. There you go. So to pierce armour, any, any good project, these days projectiles will go through some serious armour and then they explode inside the tank. So the first charge blows the hole in the tank, the second charge blows inside the tank.
[Other]: So dad, when you were doing all this, you were, you’re risking your life, every time!
MM: No, I’m testing.
Int: Probably not so much cause it was in a research.
MM: Research and test.
Int: In a research kind of environment so it would be like workshop, laboratory, research and they were working out how to, so that the rockets that were fired – cause they were right at the end of the war – they’d come off fighter planes that shoot, basic, very basic rockets at the end of the forties, but you could hit ground targets, so if you got tanks going across an open ground or something, or something like that, then obviously the fighter planes could get in and then fire the rockets to hit the tanks. But as you were saying, if it hits the outside of the thing and sticks to it, so it’s not going to bounce off, and then it explodes.
MM: Otherwise it can slide that, you know.
Int: There you go there’s a very interesting little piece of information there. That, and that’s something you’ve now remembered, getting something so they’d hit the target, and stick on it, and then explode. Rather than hitting the target and bouncing off.
MM: Bounced, yes.
Int: So there we are.
[Other]: Right. So that’s where your engineering, cause dad ended up being a production engineer, so he used to.
MM: That, you had the people was coming from London and was going teach us, you know.
Int: Yeah. It’s starting to come together now! We’re understanding a little bit more about what you actually did.
[Other]: Right! Yes.
Int: So it was probably -
MM: How to drop the bombs as well.
Int: Yes.
MM: You know, was teaching everything, you know.
Int: Which does explain perhaps why –
[Other]: You weren’t operational, non-operational.
Int: And you didn’t go up through the ranks because you were staying at that experimental, although you think they might have given you another rank or two for a little bit more pay, for the job you were doing! But maybe because that was, it was a shorter time and during the war.
[Other]: Four years is a long time in the war! That’s eighty percent out of four years.
Int: We can, the records, the main records for what happened at Halton research are probably out in the public domain now if you know where to find them, just to find out, test and evaluation centre that would have been there, or a small workshops as part of the armourers. And to be honest, if you’ve got the armourers there, the people that taught the armourers will be more experienced people anyway, so then they’d use some of those instructors, probably attached to, with your father, they’d be like the managers, the site managers, or the supervisors looking after the team of younger workers that were doing the test and evaluation on things.
[Other]: But my feeling is there’s a lot going on behind the scenes here.
Int: Oh, probably so, yeah. I mean that happened through the whole of the Second World War. Not just the Air Ministry, but in the Air Ministry would, there would have been a lot of small, trying new things, test and evaluation. I mean nobody had heard about the bouncing bomb, had they, and that just, that was all built.
[Joanne] Did you test the bouncing ball dad?
MM: No.
[Other]: Did you do anything with nuclear war? That nuclear?
Int: No.
MM: No. They was testing in Wales that, yeah.
Int: Yes, I mean the bouncing bomb was all done down at um, Teddington, Teddington Lock, the big old, the big water tanks that they had down there, in towards London. I don’t know what, I don’t know where all the nuclear stuff was done.
[Other]: Wales, dad said it was Wales.
Int: Wales.
MM: Wales, that was in Wales.
Int: Probably in and around the old quarries and things like that where you have low population.
MM: They was doing some in Wales, testing.
[Other]: Oh, very interesting, I didn’t know this.
Int: There we are. It’s interesting sometimes, when things, as people relax a little bit when we have the conversations, little things do tend to come out, so, and the nice thing is we’ve captured it all now so we can put it on to a disc so that if you need to look back and remember points that perhaps you’ll forget about, and then you think ‘oh yes, I said that’, so, and that’s, so it’ll help Joanne as well cause if you get the bug and start doing a bit of research we’ve got at least some ground area now.
[Other]: So, in your testing evaluation school, how many Polish people were there? Sixty, seventy?
MM: No, that was, there was I think six, was five hundred.
[Other]: Five hundred?
MM: But different sections!
[Other]: Yeah, but in your [emphasis] section?
MM: In my section er -
[Other]: Do you remember dad?
MM: No. In my section was [pause].
Int: Five hundred would have been probably for the whole camp. With the standard training for armourers in different points, but then -
[Other]: I can’t believe that dad.
MM: Thirty or forty.
[Other]: Thirty, so it’s quite a small group.
Int: Small group, concentrate on certain things.
[Other]: Concentrate, yeah.
MM: Thirty or forty there was, yeah.
[Other]: And all the other groups, you knew all the other groups, yeah?
MM: Well one actually, he was instructor, he went to Argentina and I think he passed away long time ago.
[Other]: So, so the friends that you see at your monthly Polish Air Force lunch, they used to be in Northolt, Halton, with you, yes? No? Yes?
Int: The people that you have lunch with, each month, your friends now [emphasis] when you see them each month now.
[Other]: They were at Halton.
Int: Are they the people from Halton, or are they just Polish Air Force people that you’ve met since?
MM: No, they’re probably different.
Int: From different things, right. Okay
MM: You know, from different.
Int: Well thank you very, very much.
MM: Not so many left now [laugh].
[Other]: Very interesting.
Int: No! Well thank you very, very much Michael, find where the turn off switch is.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mieczyslaw Maryszczak
Description
An account of the resource
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak was born in Bokyivka, Ukraine and served in the Polish Army and then the Polish Air Force. An early memory of the war is throwing bread to starving Russian prisoners being marched from Lviv to Podlesice. At seventeen he was in the Polish Army testing repaired tanks in Gaza. After the Allied victory at Alamein he went to Egypt where he joined the Polish Air Force, sailing via South Africa to Liverpool to train at RAF Halton as an armourer.
At RAF Halton he met fellow Poles from 303 Squadron who were there for three months training. He, however, was there for four years and received training very good on all types of armament and explosives, possibly in the context of weapon research and development.
He was there on VE Day but says the Poles didn't celebrate because of the Yalta agreement. He also recalls how, when some Russians visited, they were locked in a workshop out of the way. He recalls the barrack rooms and how they cheated the midnight bed checks when some were still out dancing in Aylesbury. He also says that the food was cooked by Italian prisoners and was very good.
In 1946 Michael went to RAF Cammeringham pending demobilisation. He was then detached to 48 Maintenance Unit at Wrexham, where he received and checked aircraft guns, before going to RAF Framlingham to await resettlement or repatriation.
Some Polish airmen returned to Poland but Mieczyslaw, by then know as Michael, went to London for resettlement. He claimed that trade unions didn't want the Poles and tried to send them into the mines and foundries but he refused and found a job making spectacles. He met his wife, who is also Polish, in 1960.
In London Michael attended social events and dinners at the Polish Club. He was awarded the Polish Freedom Medal in about 1990 or 1991.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
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01:31:02 audio recording
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v070001-Audio
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoff Burton
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Andy Fitter
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-05-08
1946
1947
1948
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Gaza Strip
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Lincoln
England--London
England--Wolverhampton
Middle East--Palestine
Wales
Wales--Wrexham
Ukraine
Poland
Poland--Kraków
303 Squadron
demobilisation
ground crew
ground personnel
military living conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Cosford
RAF Framlingham
RAF Halton
RAF Ingham
RAF Wrexham
recruitment
shelter
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/504/30541/ADavisR[Date]-01.mp3
72e2792125ec47af1195ffe013eef4ea
Dublin Core
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Title
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Davis, Ronald
Ronald Samuel Davis
R S Davis
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Davis, R
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection concerns with Ronald Davis (1922 - 2017, 1231181 Royal Air Force). He served as ground crew with 49 and 617 Squadrons. Collection contains three oral history interviews as well as photographs of people and aircraft.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RD2: When you, when you first joined. Why you joined for a start.
RD: Right. I joined because I was mad keen on air. As an eighteen year old I was mad keen on aeroplanes and I knew I was going to be conscripted and I was determined that I wasn’t going in to the Army so [pause] yes.
RD2: If you actually just say I joined the RAF.
RD: Yeah. I volunteered for the RAF originally in about September October of 1940. I was very interested in aeroplanes and aircraft models and what have you although I couldn’t afford to buy any at those times, at that time. And I knew I was going to be called up eventually so I decided that I would volunteer for the RAF and I went to the recruitment depot at Euston Road and there I went on to, for assessment at Cardington in Bedfordshire. And they sent me home for a couple of weeks and I was eventually called in December 1940 where I, where I was kitted out at Cardington and then transferred to Bournemouth for square bashing. And I was at Bournemouth for about six weeks staying in a boarding house. Funnily enough it was the first time I’d ever had a room on my [laughs] of my own because until then I’d always shared with my brothers and sisters and so that was the first time I ever had a bedroom to myself. And after square, square bashing at Bournemouth I was posted to Halton which was number 1 School of Technical Training where I stayed for six months training as a fitter air frame. And immediately we finished in August I was posted to 49 Squadron then stationed at Scampton flying with Handley Page Hampdens which was a twin engine bomber. Not very well heard of these days but anybody that does know anything about aircraft know it was a twin boomed strange looking aircraft. The crew sat in the middle of the wings and there was a pilot, a navigator, second pilot. There was also a bomb aimer and a wireless operator who was a mid, who was a top gunner and the rear gunner who sat in a cupola for ten hours with his legs in the air freezing to death. I mean, when they used to come out at the end of a bombing trip we used to have to defrost them to get them going. It was atrocious conditions. As far as I remember the navigator also used to double up as the front gunner. There was a fixed gun position on the front, you know. But these were very slow aircraft. Very slow aircraft. They did about two hundred and twenty miles an hour downwind and if they went on to a bombing raid it would be six, seven hours. When we went to, went to Italy once when we bombed Milan and, and strangely enough the nearest airfield in England to Milan is down in Cornwall, navigating the shortest distance. So we were all flown down to Cornwall in a Handley Page Harrow and set, they set off from there and we waited ‘til they come back and then we all came back to, to Scampton. But that was a very interesting exercise and on that raid they were away for ten hours.
RD2: So, just going back a little bit. Just did you have any ambitions to fly?
RD: I I volunteered for aircrew very early on in my, when I was at Scampton and I was sent down to London for aircrew assessment. And I stayed at Abbey Lodge or one, one of those houses in Abbey Road, there was blocks of flats in Abbey Road for two days and it was clear from the moment I got there that I was unsuitable because of my eyes. I I always operated on one eye. I had good sight with, but only on one [laughs] only from one eye and so I was rejected for aircrew and I went back to ground crew.
RD2: Right. So just if you don’t mind me asking.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: The odd questions.
RD: You, I’d prefer you.
RD2: Yeah. Ok.
RD: Because then I know what you want then. Yeah.
RD2: Yeah. When you arrived at Scampton was it the first time you’d been on a large RAF airfield?
RD: Well, I’d seen, I’d seen Hendon from the outside but I was very excited to be in the front line as it were and I knew immediately I got to Scampton that I was in the front line. There was, this was an operational squadron and not, and not playing, playing games like most servicemen were doing at that time. I was very excited being on it. I was very proud to be there. Very proud. I mean I I was a nineteen year old. I was streetwise. I wasn’t, you know I was brought up in the East End of London. I was streetwise but a nineteen year old in 1940 was a very unsophisticated individual. I had never bought any clothes for myself before I went in. My mum bought my, my clothes. If I had to have a suit for work she used to come to the shop and my mum chose it and my mum paid for it. So, I was very unsophisticated but I knew I was in the, in the front line and I admired the pilots very much. I mean, some of them were well decorated. We also, Scampton had a VC. A guy called Sergeant Hannah. He wasn’t actually with 49 Squadron, he was with the co-squadron at Scampton at 183 Squadron and he’d won a VC crawling out of a burning Lancaster in the air to put out a fire to stop them crashing. And he succeeded but to this day how he did it I don’t know. But I used to see him regularly and I was always very very proud to just to have a look at him and he was a Scotsman from Glasgow and just an ordinary sort of a guy and, and I was very proud to be with them. I liked the crew. The aircrew. But the one occasion we had this Australian pilot. Holt. Aussie Holt he was called. Very very nice fellow and one very funny story he was very superstitious as most aircrew were and they used to do strange things before flights. Operational flights. And his particular crew used to stand against the rear, rear wheel of the Hampden and have a pee together before they took off. And a couple of days later there was a DROs, Daily Routine Orders with the words I can remember to this day were, “Promiscuous urination against tail wheels will cease forthwith.” [laughs] Which I decided was very funny though I don’t think it stopped him [laughs] And so —
RD2: So, what was your, you arrived at Scampton these obviously were the first warplanes that you’d had to —
RD: Yes. These were the first ones —
RD2: You trained on what? Things like Battles or —
RD: We trained basically on, I think there was an Avro [pause] our training was all theory at Scampton except for the last two weeks when we went on the airfield at Halton where there were various aeroplanes. Not much. A Battle, an Anson and, and that was the only time we saw aeroplanes. When I got to Scampton they were overcrowded with crew because the Technical Training Schools were churning out. So, when I got to Scampton and I was posted to Flight 1, Flight 1 or Flight C. Flight 1, I think. And on each flight had four aeroplanes and there were three flights so there was twelve in a squadron. On the four planes that I was on, my flight there were probably eight engineers per aeroplane which was much too much but the idea was to put guys like me with the people who knew what they were doing just to, in effect train us on the [pause] and my job as a fitter airframe was everything in the aeroplane except the engine where there were fitter engines and that was their job. But the fitter airframe dealt with the hydraulics, the pneumatics. Everything.
RD2: Did that include battle damage?
RD: Battle damage was done in the hangar which is not on the flight. Flight was merely maintenance. Battle damage was done in the hangar. Serious battle damage went to a Maintenance Unit but, but the hangar at Scampton, as far as I remember there were three hangars. Or four hangars. Three or four hangars and you know little bits were done there.
RD2: Was one, did each flight have a hangar or was it just whichever was available?
RD: Whichever was, was available. And eventually as people were being posted, particularly abroad, mainly abroad the numbers of the crew were reduced and towards the end of my time at Scampton there was probably only two flight engineers on per aircraft. We had to do a daily maintenance. That’s check everything on the aircraft that we, that was, that we could by sight. And then there were certain other checks that were done regularly and ground crew used to move the aircraft in those days as well on the ground.
RD2: How was that done?
RD: Well, the engineer used to just start up and move them around. Yeah. Yeah. That, that stopped very quickly but when I first went there you know your ground crew used to move aircraft on the ground and we had to deal with the wheels and tyres and things. A big job always was if a plane burst a tyre on landing. Then we had, used to have to get out there with jacks and planks and planks of wood because there were no runways at Scampton at that time so if a bomber came off in the mud you had to really lift it up to get, get the wheel on. I remember we used to have to put out planks of wood and then we had these jacks we’d lift, put under the wing and lifted them up to change the wheels and that was a big job in, in all weathers. And it was pretty cold there too. I remember how bitterly cold it was.
RD2: What, what months were you there?
RD: I was there from September. August. August September ’41 to April ’42 when they threw us out to [pause] and I went to Winthorpe and they threw us out to put in, put in the runways.
RD2: So, you were there right through the winter.
RD: Right through the winter. Oh yes. And it was a tough winter. I can remember on the night of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau bombing when we, when we lost half the squadron. It was a very very sad time standing out on the runway until 1 o’clock in the morning waiting for aircraft to come back. And there were no Drem lighting in those days because it was grass and if there was snow as there was at that time we used to have gooseneck flares and there were probably twelve or fourteen gooseneck flares along the runway with one airman on each pair of flares on either side. So, you would light your gooseneck flare when an aircraft was, you were told an aircraft was coming in. You’d light your gooseneck flare with great difficulty with a match that kept blowing out in the wind and then run like a lunatic across the other side to light the other one before the aeroplane arrived. And, and once he landed then you had to put your gooseneck out and wait, wait for the next one because you couldn’t disclose your your your situation. But that was probably the saddest night of my life when I was out there. It was so depressing in those conditions and knowing that, that they hadn’t got back. And my particular aeroplane P for Peter went down on that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau raid with that Sergeant Aussie Holt as the pilot. Yeah.
RD2: So, could you describe that in a bit more sort of general terms because there were a lot of aircraft lost weren’t there?
RD: Yeah. There were a lot of aircraft lost. We used to do a thousand bomber raids in those days and the thousand bombers were made up of aeroplanes from here, there and everywhere. And although a large number were lost the number per squadron was small. We, we had lost aircraft on raids on many occasions. One, perhaps two but six or seven out of the squadron is a big big toll and unusual. I mean I’m told other squadrons had similar experiences but I didn’t experience it at 49 at that time. But Scampton was a very comfortable station. It was a pre-war, purpose built blocks. There was nothing skimped about it as there was at [Skimpton?] where we were in Nissen huts and outdoor toilets and washing houses and things of that sort. We were in two story brick built billets with proper bathrooms and toilets you know.
RD2: They would be the sort of the H Blocks. H blocks.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: Around, around the parade square.
RD: Basically. Not [pause] As far as I, no I don’t think, they were near the square but not round it. Yeah. They were all in that part of the airfield but I can’t remember being around the square. The parade ground was immediately behind Station Headquarters as you came in. Station Headquarters was at the right and, and the square was just beyond that and then these blocks were distributed around the beginning and the airfield was further down. Down the road.
RD2: So, you were what? What rank were you at this time?
RD: I was, went as an aircraftsman second class when I qualified. Then I was promoted and then I became AC1 and then I became a leading aircraftsman, LAC which was the most senior before [pause] I had no ambitions to, to —
RD2: You would —
RD: I would have —
RD2: You would have gone on to be a corporal, wouldn’t you?
RD: Yes. Yeah. The next jump up would have been a corporal but I had no great ambitions because I wasn’t that great an engineer. In fact, knowing my capabilities now I’m amazed I coped at all [laughs] Coped at all. But had I been a flyer obviously I’m sure I would have been a lot more ambitious than, than I was.
RD2: So, your, your sort of off duty moments would have been spent mainly in what? The Airmen’s Institute?
RD: No. We used to, we used to work twenty four hours every third day because remember all operations were at night. I mean, we did very few daylight raids. The Americans did all the daylight raids but of course they weren’t in the war yet but 49 Squadron only operated at night and therefore you had to have a crew on all night if, if there were operations. As there were on most nights. So, when you worked there were no days off. When you worked twenty four hours you came off duty at five or six in the morning and the rest of the day was yours. So I, we used to go to bed for a while and then get up and get the bus in to Lincoln to have something to eat or something to drink and perhaps go to a dance or a movie, the cinema and then walk back from Lincoln. Five miles [laughs]. Of course, the buses never ran, ran after 6 o’clock and we certainly couldn’t afford a taxi in those days. But I always liked my food and whereas most of the boys would go drinking I preferred to go and find myself a little café and get something to eat and tuck in that way.
RD2: I take it from that that your opinion of the RAF food wasn’t that great.
RD: No.
RD2: No.
RD: We, we used to have it was good food ruined by bad cooks. It [laughs] we used to have rice pudding for dessert every day. Seven days a week. And rice pudding was unsweetened. There was a shortage of sugar so you used to get a dollop of raspberry or strawberry jam in the middle of the rice pudding and then mix it up until it looked like mud and then eat it. That was sweet. And the day I was demobilised I took an oath that I would never eat rice pudding again and to date [laughs] I haven’t broken that.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: But no. I was not terribly impressed with, with the feed. Even though, even though there were proper cookhouse that we had. Every facility was there. I remember I got jankers on one day, on one occasion for having my hands in my pocket or something of that sort and a warrant officer, station warrant officer told me to go and get my pocket stitched up and report back at 5 o’clock to let him see. Which I did. And I showed him the pocket that I’d sewn up. He said, ‘What about the other one?’ I said, ‘Well, I only had one hand in my pocket.’ [laughs] And he said I was impertinent and I was on a charge and I got three days jankers where I had to go to the cookhouse. Do some, some work. And there was a lovely lady cook who I had a nice chat to and she made me some mushrooms on [laughs] or some, some food on toast and we had a good chat and I did some of the washing up but not, not a tremendous amount.
RD2: Brilliant. So, do you remember, I mean was there, I mean, two aspects. One, was there a lot of square bashing? Was there a lot of marching about?
RD: No. No. On, on an operational squadron it was very informal. You have to remember that at Scampton there were two squadrons 49 Squadron, 183 Squadron. There was discipline but there was no what they call bullshit. Right. But at Scampton there was also the administration headquarters at, at the top by the gate and there they tried to enforce discipline which they did in the case of, I mean if I’d have been out on the Flight with my hands in my pocket with my overalls they’d know I was trying to keep my hands warm to do some work. But if you were up around headquarters and you had your hands in pockets then you were in trouble. No. There was not a lot of discipline on the squadron because we were all doing a job that was far more important than the, than the discipline.
RD2: On the other side of that was there a lot of social life on the base?
RD: Yes. Mainly through the NAAFI. Mainly through the NAAFI where we all used to meet in the evening. Occasionally there was a concert and we used to have our own singsongs and things of that sort. One thing that I would like to, to mention at this stage was we had a Salvation Army van used to come around to Scampton every morning. I think every morning. Rarely in the afternoons but every morning without fail and no matter what the weather these two girls used to arrive with hot tea and what we used to call wads which were little buns. And, and no matter what the weather, I mean in thick snow they used to come out. And to this day I’m a great supporter of, I say to my wife what we ought to send and she said, ‘You know, it’s too much now.’ I say, ‘It’s not too much.’ I remember the wonderful work they did. They were a Godsend and they used to come out on to the Flight every day. They obviously had to come through the front gate so, you know I was trying to think how they got out on to the flights but they obviously came through the front gates and used to go to the three flights in turn. They were wonderful girls. I remember. I’ll never forget the Salvation Army.
RD2: So, on the [pause] were you on the base for Christmas? At Scampton.
RD: Yes.
RD2: Can you describe that?
RD: Yes. At Christmas the officers, we had turkey and the officers carved the turkey. Used to have the officer come round every meal for, ask if there were any complaints but you didn’t complain. I don’t know why. I know some of the older ones didn’t ever complain but nobody ever complained despite how bad it was. And it may well have been that some of them were quite satisfied with the, with the adequacy but I always had difficulty in coping with, with getting enough food. But the officer used to come around, ‘Any complaints?’ Every day. The duty officer. And then at Christmas operations were always suspended and this was one of the reasons why we were caught out with the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. We were bombed up with armour piercing bombs for a raid before Christmas and then we were stood down and they had to be de-bombed and then after Christmas it happened and we had to get our aeroplanes off in a hurry and I don’t wish to make a song and a dance about it but I do think that we probably had the wrong bombs for, for the job. On the day we didn’t have the armour piercing bombs on the aircraft simply because they, we had been caught out and they came through when they didn’t expect them. But that would have been the Christmas and we did have turkey and as I say the officers served it. It was very enjoyable, very lively and you know there was great camaraderie in the, in the squadron and there was competition between the various flights as to who could get their aeroplanes out ready for take-off first and things of this sort. But there was a great camaraderie in the squadron.
RD2: So, you were, you’re, I’m trying, if you work it into sort of like a working day for you.
RD: Yes.
RD2: You would have been out on flights. The aircraft were dispersed out —
RD: Yeah. Although there were no concrete runways there was a concrete strip around and, and off the concrete strip there were these little arms with the, with the round at the, I can’t remember what we called them.
RD2: Dispersals?
RD: Dispersal Unit. That’s right. Dispersal Unit. And in the middle of that Dispersal Unit was the flight sergeant’s hut and the flight sergeant was the senior NCO in charge of that flight where we used to get our orders, and various stores were kept there and the aeroplanes were walking distance from there. Now, we were probably then a mile to Flight 2 which was around another part of the aeroplane so we never saw them very much. There was just our four aeroplanes around the hut where we, where we worked. So we would get down there at 8 o’clock in the morning and we would get instructions from the flight sergeant to do either daily routine inspection or tow the aircraft down to the hangar because it had a bigger inspection or tow it to the compass swinger where the aeroplane had to be swung regularly to be sure the compasses was alright. And that was all our, all our duty or the actual compass was an instrument, instrument mechanics job but we used to have to see to the [pause] and, and then we were told later in the day whether there was going to be operations and if there were then armourers used to bring out the bombs and load up and we, we would assist with that.
RD2: Did the armourers also arm the guns?
RD: Yes.
RD2: At that same time.
RD: The same. Yeah. And armourers would come in during the course of the day either to put them in or change them or exchange them or whatever but, but armourers were at, were not on flight because there would only be a couple of armourers for each flight. Three or four armourers for each flight. Bombs weren’t heavy at that time. The biggest one was either a five hundred or a thousand pound but if they were doing long raids they only had two hundred and fifty pound bombs and we had, and they could be manhandled up by, by the guys themselves. And then at, we’d have our lunch and we’d go back for lunch I think and then we would work through ‘til 5 o’clock unless you were on duty and then you would stay or go. Go and get some supper and come back and see to seeing them off and bring them back hopefully.
RD2: So, seeing them off did you, was there was there a point where the aircrew would come out and talk to you before —?
RD: Oh, when they came out they used to come out in a bus. They would always chat to us. Always chat to us and know, anything special about had gone on with the aeroplane or anything been touched or anything of that sort. And then we used to wait and service other aircraft if any that were on the ground that hadn’t gone off whilst they were away. And once they came back then the crews would come off and go back on the bus, go back for debriefing and we would just wrap up and go home unless there was something wrong with the plane. Then we would get to deal with it there and then.
RD2: Would the, would the aircrew talk to the flight sergeant and say you know this engine is running rough or something like that?
RD: Oh yes.
RD2: Or would they come directly to you and say its hydraulic —
RD: No. No. He would go, go to the flight sergeant because [pause] yes, they they would always report to him. If it was something simple like something had come detached inside the plane they’d say something’s come off. Will you, will you have a look at that?
RD2: So you had a long interim period there where if the planes were away for six or eight hours.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: What did you do during that period because that was overnight apparently?
RD: Yes. That was at night. You could sometimes get, get your head down for a little bit in in the flight office.
RD2: Which was where?
RD: Where, where the flight sergeant was. Yeah.
RD2: The [unclear] Yeah.
RD: Yeah. That was the flight office. Yeah, and [pause] but invariably there were things to do on perhaps another aeroplane that wasn’t there but if there was nothing around then we would play cricket or football and things of that sort if, if it was light enough during the, during the summer and, and then we used to just find somewhere to get your head down. There was no such thing as beds or, or anything of that sort.
RD2: Yeah. So, I’m just trying to think. When, where there, where there were periods where the crew were sitting out at the flight hut on standby?
RD: No. Remember we’re bomber crews not, not fighter. Bomber crews were at headquarters and, and there was a sergeant’s mess and there was the officer’s mess and they would be there being briefed or perhaps training themselves. I mean, frankly I didn’t know what they were doing in the course of the day. Mainly if they’d been on ops they would, they would be sleeping. But then they would only come out when it was, it was time to go. Perhaps be out there for a half an hour a quarter of an hour, twenty minutes something like that and yeah, we always used to chat to them at that time. Because you would never ask them anything about what was going on because wherever they were going was secret. So that, I mean as it happened through the grapevine we knew.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: Basically where, where they were going and when they got back we used to just, you know, get it confirmed. Yeah. That’s flashing now.
RD2: Yeah. That’s ok. It just means the tape is coming to an end.
RD: Right. Right.
RD2: It’s got another five minutes.
RD: Right. Ok.
RD2: I’ll carry on if you don’t mind.
RD: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RD2: What was I just going to say? Yes. The procedure if you knew, how did you know an aircraft was coming back either battle damaged or [unclear]
RD: Well, we knew from the, from the conning tower. From the air control. That we used to get a word through the office that they were on their way and then you would just watch. Watch them land. As I say when, when they had to use the gooseneck flares and we used them I would have thought on six occasions when I was there to, to bring them in. The number one guy next to the air control tower would be told to light his and as soon as he started you did it all the way along but that was the most awful experience. Standing out there at night hours on end. I can’t tell you how cold it was. It used to blow across Lincolnshire straight from Siberia. How cold it was. And, and the sheer boredom. You couldn’t, you couldn’t read and you couldn’t sit and you couldn’t talk to anybody. You were just standing there and I mean occasionally we used to, we’d get halfway and shout to each other. But there was nobody to talk to because he was like two, two hundred yards away, a hundred yards away and —
RD2: But then —
RD: But they were good days. I only remember the good things.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: I don’t remember much of the, of the awful things that happened.
RD2: Yeah. But I know the, if, would you know if an aircraft was coming in and had possible damage?
RD: Yes.
RD2: To its undercarriage or something like that.
RD: Well, air control would know but we wouldn’t know until we saw. The extraordinary thing is when, when you’re on a squadron like that you can hear your, the engines of your plane as opposed to any other aeroplane and you know a stranger merely from the sound of the engine. And you were used to looking at aircraft and even when they were in the air we could tell if one, I mean, at night obviously you couldn’t but during the daytime if somebody had a flat tyre or the undercarriage hadn’t come down properly then, then, then you, you could tell because you could see but other than that the first thing we knew was we could see it come down and go over on one side.
RD2: And presumably on the airfield next to the control tower was the fire station and the —
RD: That’s right. The fire tender and the crash crew on the fire tender were at the side of there. One, one occasion that I perhaps can mention that one of the bombers came back on one occasion and when they stopped on the dispersal we used to sort of do that to open the bomb doors and it wasn’t my aeroplane but it was on, it was one in the squadron. As they opened the door a bomb that had come off the attachment but hadn’t fallen was trapped in the door, dropped and exploded and some of the ground crew were killed there and it was not, not a pretty sight. It was not a pretty sight. It was pretty awful.
RD2: Were the aircrew out of the aircraft at the time?
RD: They were under. Underneath it. So the ground crew and the aircrew, or some of the aircrew were there. I think there were some survivors. And then we had another time when an aeroplane crashed coming in to land in in to a field just outside the airfield where when we got there you couldn’t tell humans from cows and it was, that was an awful awful thing. An awful thing. But those things I’ve tried to wipe —
RD2: Yeah.
RD: Out of my mind. Yeah. Yeah.
RD2: I’m going to just stop and change —
[recording paused]
RD2: Like that then. This has been, whereabouts well I mean we’ll go back just to repeat what you were saying.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: You’d hitch a lift.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: In the —
RD: Yes. In those days it was quite easy if the crew were on a non-operational flight if you’d, and you got permission you could go and have a flight round if they were on circuits and bumps or if they were going to another station to do something and come straight back. I flew quite on, I wouldn’t say a regular basis but on a large number of occasions I flew in the, in the, in the Hampden.
RD2: Where did you, I mean which position did you take on this?
RD: I would normally either sit next to the pilot or as a second pilot or I’d go down in the nose where the bomb aimer was, would be. Or I would find myself a position in the mid-upper turret where, where the wireless operator whilst he was wireless operating wasn’t in his cupola he was sitting down by his radio. So, the upper gunner wouldn’t be doing any wireless work whilst, whilst they were in a position where they might be finding —
RD2: It must, it must have been quite exciting to be —
RD: Oh, unbelievable. Unbelievable. Particularly in those days where just nobody but the very, very wealthy flew anywhere. Oh no, I was always very, very happy to have a flight. Even if I had to work late or something of that sort to, to make up time and —
RD2: Where, where what sort of places did you go?
RD: We never landed but we used to go on, I remember flying from Lincoln up to, up to, north west towards Wigan Pier. And then they, we used to also go, they did bomb aiming practice out on, in the Fens in East Anglia somewhere. I went on a few of those. Never had a full crew because it was only one member of the crew who would be training and they would then need a pilot and a navigator so there was probably three crew and they would take one or two ground crew. In fact, on an occasion I went I think I was the only one. But they were very very enjoyable trips. And then, I mean this is long after Scampton but at the end of the war I did a trip over Germany to show the various towns where we had dropped bombs. That was, that was a very exciting episode as well. I went in a Lancaster on that and we did a tour of all the towns that the squadron had bombed.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: And that, that was very interesting.
RD2: So just going back to the Hampden itself.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: Hampden. Hampden or Hampton.
RD: No. Hampden.
RD2: Hampden. That’s it. Yeah.
RD: Yeah. Yeah.
RD2: I’ve heard various reports. I mean, some, I heard some, one aircrew called it a flying coffin but from what you said it sounds to have been quite a reliable aircraft.
RD: In my opinion it was a reliable aircraft. There were, there were very few accidents that weren’t, that were caused in my [pause] as far as my recall goes very few accidents where aeroplanes went down because of a fault. There were a large number of accidents where there was human error, I mean. But I can remember being told by a number of crew that that thing flew itself. You know. It needed very little control. So, I’m a little bit surprised to hear that the crews called it a a flying coffin. But I I was not aware of it. No.
RD2: Whether that was in reference to being able to defend itself.
RD: Ah. That, that of course is another thing, you see. Bearing in mind what did it have. It had one fixed gun in the front, a gun at the top controlled by the wireless operator gunner and the rear gunner who was in a cupola underneath the aircraft at the back sitting there with his legs up like this. Fixed all, all night long so that he couldn’t see anything above him. He could only see stuff below him. So, from that point of view, yes. I could see it would be a trap but in those days there weren’t that many night fighters. Most of the aircraft were taken down by anti-aircraft guns.
RD2: I think, going back to Scampton were you, was the station ever attacked by the enemy?
RD: Yes. One afternoon. One afternoon Jerry came over and machine gunned one part of the airfield but not a lot of damage was done. The other thing that happened as a result of that was that the aeroplane, the aeroplanes they thought were vulnerable on the ground so they decided that of the squadron six of the aircraft would be dispersed to another airfield just a mile or two or a landing strip a mile or two away so that if Jerry did decide to come over and have a go again he could only get a half the squadron not the whole squadron and —
RD2: Was that Ingham?
RD: Possibly. I, I know that name but I can’t remember if it was the name but it was just a few miles away. We took off at Scampton and straight down on to this airfield and every night six aeroplanes would go over there with two ground crew. You would have six pilots and two ground crew. And then we used to button up the six for the night and come back in another aeroplane and the next morning go back and bring them back again. Now, the story goes that after a while somebody had the bright idea that instead of, it was a waste of time and you know the effort of getting six aeroplanes on to another field was really not worth it but after a while somebody had the bright idea that they’d make up six mock Hampdens in wood and, and put them at this other airfield. And the story goes that two days after it happened Jerry came over and dropped a wooden bomb on that airfield [laughs]
RD2: [laughs] That’s brilliant.
RD: Yeah. I dined out on that story for a long time.
RD2: That’s fantastic. That really is. Thank you. That, it’s brilliant [laughs] Great. But the airfield itself was never bombed at Scampton.
RD: Not, not that, not that I remember. Not that I remember. No. What would they bomb? There were no, they were trying to get the aeroplanes obviously and I think this is what, this what do they call it, strafer, ground strafer. The aeroplane came over and just machine gunned. I think he did damage some aeroplanes on that raid and that’s why they decided to disperse half the squadron but other than that I can’t recall anything at all. I can’t recall anything of that sort.
RD2: No. I mean, you don’t recall whether because I mean that must have been, really made you feel very much on the front line.
RD: Oh yes.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: Well, I’d felt on the front line when I was on the square bashing at Bournemouth because we used to parade on, on the lower promenade at Bournemouth and one afternoon Jerry came in straight off the sea. And after that we used to [laughs] we used to do our training in the side roads around, around on, on the East Cliff around Meyrick Park. We used to go on the side streets there. So, I’d seen some of that when, when I’d been at Bournemouth.
RD2: Yeah. When [pause] a slightly aside point. You obviously had WAAFs on the station.
RD: Yes.
RD2: At that time. Were they very much segregated?
RD: Yes. WAAFs were mainly in air control and had nothing to do with us in in any event. There were, there were lots of and lots of officers that were far more attractive than than erks like [laughs] like us. But later on when WAAFs came in as, as mechanics but that was very very much later there was no segregation. I mean they did the same job as we did. We used to, we used to tease them unmercifully but, but, but —
RD2: And at Scampton were they billeted off station?
RD: No. Remember that was a permanent station so there would have been quarters for WAAFs. In fact, trying to turn my mind back because it’s not something I’ve thought of I think the WAAFs might have been in wartime huts as opposed to the H blocks distributed around but but basically there was, there was no, no problem. There was no problem as far as I remember. There was no, no problem at all.
RD2: And did you have much to do with other neighbouring stations? Hemswell or any of the others?
RD: Not really unless your aeroplane landed somewhere else because of fog or, and then you’d have to go over there just to see that they got back alright and you’d come back with them. The one interesting thing I remember at Scampton very early on. An American aeroplane landed at Scampton because he, he was in trouble and they sent a ground crew over to see to this aeroplane. And we were amazed, amazed is not the word, at the equipment that each American engineer had that we didn’t have. If we wanted a special set of spanners we had to go from the Flight back to stores, sign them out for the day, use them and take them back. The Americans had the same tools around their belt and we were very very conscious of how even in those days very early on in the war how much better equipped the American serviceman was to, to us. I mean we had a toolbox, you know. A hammer, a chisel and a screwdriver but anything more sophisticated than that used to have to be borrowed because there weren’t, weren’t enough to go around. There were obviously a few sets of spanners in the stores but not enough for —
RD2: Yeah.
RD: To leave out on the Flight. That was one thing that we noticed very much. That how much better equipped they were than, than we were.
RD2: So, after you were at Scampton and then you moved because they were building a runway.
RD: Runways. Yeah.
RD2: Was there any notice of that or was it just —
RD: We weren’t just told that we were. I think we were told a while before that the squadron was being broken up. I think it was broken up. 183 went somewhere else. To another, I think they went to Waddington or somewhere like that but 49 was broken up for some reason or the other to make 1664 Conversion Unit. And we were all, that’s ground crew and aircrew were transferred to Winthorpe whilst the builders came in to put these runways in and of course after the runways were put in then the station was reopened with 617 Squadron. The Dambusters Squadron. But as I say from Scampton I was sent with 1664 Conversion Unit to Winthorpe which I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it or seen any sign of it but that is, no longer exists. I think I told you I took [laughs] I took my son up there on one occasion just to show him where [laughs] where I won the war and we couldn’t find the airfield. Eventually I went on some private land and it was all farmland and the hangars were being used by the farmers as, you know for storage of their grain and materials and vehicles and things of that sort. But that just appeared but but Coddington Hall which was the officer’s mess at Winthorpe is a house that still exists I believe and I don’t know —
RD2: Yeah.
RD: Whether anybody knows anything about that. I couldn’t find it.
RD2: No. No, I know the name.
RD: Yeah.
RD2: Yeah. But what was purpose of the Conversion Unit?
RD: Well, well to convert them from these much smaller aeroplanes to the large. Remember the Hampden only had two engines. And, and to convert them to the larger Manchester which was the Lancaster with two engines and, and the Lancaster with four Merlins. The Manchester as far as I remember had two very large radial engines whereas the Lancaster had four. Four Merlins. And it was an entirely different animal to fly. Much faster. More powerful. Carried much more weight than the Hampden. The Hampden carried very little for, for its size really. I don’t think it carried anything over above a thousand pound bomb and it had one thousand pound bomb. That was not very much whereas the Lancaster carried a much bigger load and it was an entirely different thing to fly. More up to date in in many many respects.
RD2: More difficult to work on from your point of view?
RD: No. Not really. It was better to work on because it was more accessible because, because of the size. I mean in the Hampden you used to have to squeeze in everywhere. It was alright for me. I was small. But some of the big guys had, had difficulty.
RD2: Just going back sorry. What sort of engines did the Hampden have?
RD: A Hampden had [pause] I can’t remember.
RD2: Were they Bristol? Were they radials or —
[pause]
RD: I think they were. I think they were. I think they were. The other story I’ve just thought of about the, and when we were on the Conversion Unit was when Gee came in. This was the radar. The first radar was Gee and when they put those in all the aeroplanes came with Gee. One of the ground crew used to have to sleep in it all night in case somebody, somebody tried to [laughs] with a gun, with a gun, used to sleep in it at night with a sten gun, I think. In case anybody tried to come along and take it. And this went on for, for quite a while but I couldn’t believe [laughs] sleeping. Sleeping in —
RD2: Did you ever have to do it?
RD: Oh yes. Sleeping in the fuselage [laughs]
RD2: Not very comfortable.
RD: No. Well, as it happens it wasn’t that bad because you had the main spar running through and a little guy like me could, could lie, lie across there. And —
RD2: So, you stayed on.
RD: Yeah. One more thing. Maybe not. I don’t think it’s too crude to tell you the story but when we had the first WAAFs on the plane they were coming around and we were having to show them what was what. Where the, in the middle of the Lancaster fuselage was the main spar where the wings were where we used to have to walk up the, you could walk up the fuselage and cock your leg over the main spar which was like a seat on the other side and we used to tease the WAAFs to tell them to sit in the seat lay back and look for the golden rivet [laughs] up, up at the top of the aircraft. But not too, not too naughty. Yes. The golden rivet.
RD2: Yeah. So, are there, is there anything else that sort of —? Oh, I know, you did, before we started recording you were telling me about the old hands who were at Scampton.
RD: Yes.
RD2: When you first arrived.
RD: Yes.
RD2: You know, both the ground crew and in aircrew function.
RD: Yes. They were. When I first arrived in at Scampton in August September ’41 there were a number of ground crew who were regular airmen as opposed to volunteers or conscripts as it were who’d been in the Air Force before the war. Now, in the old days aircraft engine fitters, I think all fitters, aircraft and, engine and airframe fitters were also qualified gunners, air gunners and used to go. When I first went there they used to go on operations as a rear gunner which I found very exciting and I wouldn’t have minded having a go myself but by that time it was only aircrew that would be permitted and they only used them on rare occasions when there was somebody sick or they were short of a gunner or something of that sort.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: But as I say these guys used to look after the engines during the day and then go off on a, on a bombing raid.
RD2: Yeah. So, from when you left Scampton just sort of in sort of broad terms how did you finish the war? The next years.
RD: Well, when, I carried on with 1664 Conversion Unit. We were converting all the time. And then when we got to VE-day they decided that squadrons were going to be sent out to the Far East because there had been no heavy bombers in the Far East ‘til then but I can’t remember where the runways were going to be. Probably India or somewhere like that. And they were going to get squadrons to go to the Far East. When that ended, when the Conversion Unit ended which would have been 1940, be in ’45 I was transferred to Number 1 Signals Depot at West Drayton where I joined fitting parties to fit radios and radar in to aeroplanes all, all over the country. So, although that was, that was my last year it was a good year because I travelled all over Britain with a small fitting party of six. And we used to, air frame mechanic, a couple of radio engineers, electrician, and, and a sergeant in charge and we used to go to various aeroplane, airfield, aerodromes over the country. I went to a number. To Leuchars, I went to in Scotland for a while. I went with a Polish bomber squadron on detachment and they were at Bury, Bury St Edmunds and there was a Polish bomber squadron, I can’t remember what number and we we did some work on their aeroplanes. I also did, fitted at an air, at Cambridge, Marshall’s Airfield, Cambridge. I was sent on detachment there with a party to fit a radio for the first time in a biplane.
RD2: A Tiger Moth.
RD: A Tiger Moth. And it was, until then it had the speaking tube and, and I fixed this. I did the work fitting the actual thing whereas the wireless engineers get it connected up. And when I’d finished this Tiger Moth belonged to the station commander there so he said, ‘Come on. Let’s go and test it.’ So, like a shot I got a parachute and sat in the rear seat and we used this intercom in the, in the Tiger Moth for the first time ever. This would have been 1945/46. And oh, that was the most exciting ride ever when he started doing some stunts because the station commander was showing off a little bit and he said, ‘Well, come on. Let’s go home,’ and he pulled the [unclear] and went straight over and did a, you know, I’ve forgotten what they call it now when you do it.
RD2: Loop.
RD: Loop the loop, yeah. You know, did the loop the loop, said, ‘Let’s go home.’ And he pulled the stick back and we did the loop the loop and that was it. But that, that was very exciting but that of course was right, right at the, towards the end of the war. And then I was demobilised in July or August ’46 having done five, five and a half years. Generally speaking I think I can say I had a, a very exciting war. I survived with two arms, two legs and all the rest of it. And it was a busy war. I was never ever bored as a lot of people told me they were when they were waiting for things to happen. Being on an operational squadron from day one I never ever had anything of that sort. I don’t, I don’t think I was ever bored.
RD2: Did you look back when you went to what was essentially a very temporary airfield from a permanent station did you look back and think —
RD: Yes.
RD2: God, I miss that.
RD: Yes. Yes.
RD2: Can you, can you compare them?
RD: The biggest comparison, personally the biggest comparison not from a work point of view but from a personal point of view was having to get up in the morning and walk across the field you know, in rain or shine to the ablutions. You know. That, that was the biggest thing for me. And the ablutions didn’t have the showers. The showers were somewhere else and that, that I found although I accepted it because I knew it was a temporary station. But for the other facilities I was not too conscious because where Scampton was four or five miles from Lincoln Winthorpe was only less than a mile from Newark. So, we, we had the convenience of being able to walk in to town most nights if you had the money to do it. And from Newark it was easy to get to Nottingham which was a very big town and where we used to have good nights out and lots of girls. The prettiest girls in England were from Nottingham. And, and there were two, two very big dance halls there that we used. We used to go to one or the other and, and by an amazing coincidence I’ve had an association with Nottingham ever, ever since. I’ve still got a friend that, that lives there and we go up occasionally and I always said if I didn’t live in London I think I’d like to live in in Nottingham. Do you know Nottingham?
RD2: I don’t know Nottingham very well. No. I know Newark slightly better.
RD: Newark. Yeah. Yeah.
RD2: Now, that’s a nice town.
RD: Oh yeah. It wasn’t. It wasn’t. I mean it’s improved no end because Pat and I were there recently and it’s improved no end. I mean other than Ransome and Marles I can’t remember much else in Newark. Ransome and Marles were the people who made ball bearings. You used to have to pass their factory from, on the way from the airfield in to, in to Newark.
RD2: Oh. The airfield you were at that isn’t what is now the Newark Air Museum is it?
RD: The —
RD2: The Air Museum at Newark.
RD: No. That’s on the other side.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: Yeah. No, this was, the Fosse Way ran from Newark to Lincoln and we were just off. In fact, one side of the Fosse Way was the edge of the airfield whereas the other side was behind Newark past Ransome and Marles.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: So, if you got that road to Lincoln. I can’t remember is Lincoln north of Newark or east of Newark?
RD2: Lincoln is sort of due east.
RD: East. Right.
RD2: Yeah.
RD: So, you’ve got Newark and that’s the Fosse Way and then there was another road coming out of Newark apart from Ransome and Marles up to the airfield and the airfield went from that side road to, to the Fosse Way. It was between the two. But no, I was happy at Winthorpe. It was, it was a nice station. It was very good camaraderie there and although crews were coming in and out all the time for their conversion training.
RD2: Well, is there anything you’d like to add? I —
RD: I think I’d just like to thank you for giving me the opportunity of remembering these things.
RD2: No. No. No. Thank you.
RD: I thought I’d forgotten.
RD2: Thank you.
RD: And, and I hope, you know I can see something of what you’ve done.
RD2: Yeah. Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ron Davies
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Davis talks of his joining the RAF and early training at Cardington, Bournemouth and Halton. He trained as fitter and was posted to RAF Scampton on Hamden with 49 Squadron. Tells many stories of life as groundcrew at Scampton including his experiences of working and living conditions on the base. Includes John Hannah VC, losing aircraft on operations against Scharnhorst and Gneisenau and talks of battle damaged aircraft. Mentions flying as spare on air test and training as well as Cook's tour at end of the war. Mentions how American engineers were much better equiped that RAF. Moves to RAF Winthorpe on conversion unit when 49 converted to Manchester/Lancaster.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form: no better quality copies are available.
Creator
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R Davies
Format
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01:11:48 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Dorset
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Bedfordshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Bournemouth
England--Lincolnshire
England--Hampshire
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Identifier
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ADavisR[Date]-01, VDavisR[Date]
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
49 Squadron
Cook’s tour
dispersal
fitter airframe
Gneisenau
ground crew
ground personnel
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
military discipline
military service conditions
RAF Cardington
RAF Halton
RAF Scampton
RAF Winthorpe
Scharnhorst
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1722/28904/AYeandleBA181229.2.mp3
2ab0b8438e291265ab84c6488aa0d64c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Yeandle, Bertram Arthur
B A Yeandle
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Yeandle, BA
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Bertram Arthur Yeandle (b.1921, 573365 Royal Air Force) and photographs. He served as an engine / airframe fitter with 179 and 23 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Professor Susan Yeandle and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank, and today is the 29th of December 2018, and we’re in Filton, Bristol talking to Bert Yeandle about his life and times. Bert, what are your earliest recollections of life?
BY: Well, I went to school, junior school in North Petherton, and one of the interesting things about the school, I- In those days the 11+ was rather limited. There were almost forty children in my class, it were one girl and one boy, passed the scholarship and taken to the local, to the local secondary school, you know the high school sort of thing. One was, one was the postmaster's son, the other one was the local labour exchange’s daughter, so that- I- You can put that how you want it but I fancied there was a little bit of a twist somewhere.
CB: And what did you parents do?
BY: My, my mother left- Was born in 19- 1880 in about- She went to school in- She was born in Woodstock, or a place called Glympton near Woodstock in Oxfordshire, and she, she- I don’t quite know much about her schooldays but I remember she told me that she had to pay to go to school, even council school, I think they paid six pence a week they had to pay, had to take this sort of little silver sixpence to school. Anyway, eventually she left home and became a cook, and I suppose her training was through her mother, who had been that sort of thing, and she went to work at Puriton just outside Bridgewater, to the home of a reverend doctor, who had five boys, and she cooked in those days and that must’ve been about, about 1893 or something around- I think she’d be about- Well say she was about sixteen from, yeah ninety-six or seven. She was born in 19-1880 that’s be nineteen, sixteen sort of thing, about twenty-six, maybe a bit younger but that’s immaterial, and then she stayed there and my father, he was a tailor, a bespoke tailor, and he followed the trade until, it was- Until the tailoring trade was swamped by the, by the, the Jewish sort of tailors that came the Montague Burtons and the, fifty-shilling tailors and all these sorts of things, and they swamped the bespoke tailors, and there was a lot of unemployment. Anyways, father managed on, things were rather tough in the thirties for me, because father only had three, three weeks- Three days of employment by a firm of tailors in Bridgewater, three days a week and he used to do jobbing, you know, people knock at the door and say, ‘Shorten my trousers’ or, ‘Lengthen the sleeves,’ all that sort of thing, and that’s how he survived until, about 1935, he became a relieving officer- a temporary relieving officer and registrar in Bridgewater and North Petherton district, and he did- He stayed with that situation until he, until he died. He did join up in 1918, in a tailor division, I don’t know a lot about that but he, he, he didn’t- He wasn’t called up before that because there was a lot of uniforms that had to be made in the fourteen, eighteen war, they were knocked up very quickly and, so he was employed in that and eventually called him up in early parts of 1918, I think or something like that. So, he didn’t, he didn’t- he didn’t know much about it. I had one brother, my brother, he joined the RAF soon after me and he went to the, overseas, the force in France straight away. What did they call them, the?
CB: The BEF.
BY: BEF, British Ex- Yep.
CB: Expeditionary.
BY: And he stayed with them till evacuation.
CB: Right.
BY: Evacuation in May, and he didn’t come across with the boats with the masses, he travelled on a petrol bowser with a few other fellows, south of Dunkirk and came across by some boat further down Brest, or somewhere down that end, he got safely home that was that. He was- While he was there in, with the BEF he was a despatch rider and a part-time policemen sort of thing. I can tell you more about him.
CB: Ok, so-
BY: And he, he demobbed just when ’45, you know, sort of.
CB: Right, so back to your early days at school
BY: Yep
CB: Did you enjoy school? What were your-
BY: I think I did yes.
CB: - particular interests?
BY: One important thing was, half way through my school, my junior school, when I was about nine or ten, our headmaster was seriously ill, and he was taken off teaching and a temporary master came to us, who lived in Cleveland, he came down from Cleveland to take over the management, and he brought with him an Oxford University graduate, who taught his boys to play rugby, and he, he took us out and trained us, and of course North Petherton was a hot bed of rugby from 182- 1875, I think. So, they’ve had a history right through the war, all the time and still operating now, and not the same strength but there we are. So, that’s one of my earliest things, and then as father’s financial position got a little better, being in a better job, you know, more- as an assistant registrar and all that sort of thing, he sent me to a commercial school in Bridgewater, at which I, I- As you know, it specialised in bookkeeping, short-hand and I had the option of either learning French or learning Euclid and as it was, I thought Euclid sounded, well a useful sort of thing and I studied Euclid. You know what that is? A sort of offset, the sort of explanation of why something happened, why two parallel lines never meet, you know, all this sort of thing. So that went on, until I left school and, as I said, went to, work as a junior clerk in the Bristol- Bridgewater gas company. All the towns had their own private sort of organisation in those days right, and then from there on I- My, my cousin introduced me to the, to the strong points of being an apprentice, and how good it would be, and he felt certain, even though I went to a commercial school and one of the papers that we had to, we had to take to assess at Halton. You know that do you? There was three papers, English, science and, and general studies. Well, science was a problem and when I got the exam, temporary exam papers and then applied to be an apprentice, I got the temporary redundant sort of thing to see what it was, and I thought what have we here. So, I got tuition privately from a scout-master who was a teacher and he managed to struggle me through, and I passed and I was four-hundred-and-seventy-fourth out of nine-hundred-and-ten so. So, in those days, it- The pecking order was such that as you- The higher you were up the more first chance you had for the trade you turned in. So, a lot of the- you know the top ten, they went for wireless operator, mechanic, or fitter armourer or fitter two or wireless and electronic, that was the four trades of work and it worked out according to your pecking order. So, I, I was more or less, got what I wanted, and I was trained. I went to Halton and after a while, I think eighteen months they decided that they would- It was getting rather over bodied by more apprentices than they could cope with, all of us the same situation was such in Cosford, and we transferred to Cosford, and I finished my apprenticeship at Cosford, and passed out of Cosford. In about the first or second of April- March- January rather, joined Bomber Command at Harwell, that’s roughly, any more questions?
CB: Harwell in Oxfordshire?
BY: Berkshire.
CB: Berkshire it was then, now in Oxfordshire, yes.
BY: It had no, it had no runway, all the air- All the Wellingtons took off, and we, we had about, about eighteen Wellingtons and an Anson and an Oxford. These other two were for local commute, you know, flitting from one station to the other, passing a sort of good word between each station, and- Where are we now? And then
CB: So what sort of date-
BY: I started to work straight away.
CB: Yep, on what?
BY: On Wellingtons.
CB: Yes, but what-
BY: The first job I got- In those days it was- You got the normal sort of daily routine inspection, you got the thirty-hour, you got the sixty-hour and you got the a hundred-and-twenty hour inspection of aircraft, and being a fitter2 E, engines were my speciality, so I was put with another experienced young man, and we had to take an engine out of, out of the Wellington and put a new one in, that was my first job, and then it went on from there and then, you know, various- But I must say at this stage that it was quite interesting, as we came to the hangar every morning, in the middle distance were the Berkshire Downs and invariably every day you’d see a white patch in there, which is a crashed aircraft. Burnt up by the cadmin[?], you know, what the structure was made out, you know, ‘cause they were flying at twenty-hours and twenty-five hours, no experience at all, and then in 19- They had to get airmen in the air, in ’40, some survived that were better than others but- And that was- But, as time ran on there as normal daily work and we obviously, that the RAF, or Bomber Command as every other command, very conscious of the, of the sabotage which was occurring out in airfields and things like that, and there was guards placed in the insert and outs of the hangar in the first six months of 1940, you know, for- We just didn’t know what was happening, or they didn’t know, and eventually we run up to, to Dunkirk. Now as soon as Dunkirk was sort of settled, within about- When all the ones that were able, were home to their homes or their units and such like, there was that fear of paratroopers. So, we had set up in various teams of about twenty, and we had to man the airfield at an hour before dawn, till two hours after dawn armed with fifty rounds of ammunition, waiting for the parachutes to come. Fortunately, they never came. So- But we’re there waiting and being a lad of nineteen, you know, you had that fear of- You’re out- ‘Cause differing at nineteen, and one of us twenty-five and thirty and go on doesn’t it, and you know, I thought it would be a good job have a shot at these people dangling down with a canopy above ‘em, but it never happened, and then that eased off and we’re on Wellingtons, carrying on ‘cause I think we had about seventeen or eighteen there, and as I told you before we- Our job was in the early stages of March, April, May, May sort of thing was bombing, was nickel bombing or leaflets, propaganda, you know, distribute all over Berlin and all other places like that, and I wish I’d salvaged a couple and got them now, they were interesting to see but we just flung them in the dustbin as it was, you know, you’re- And that was it until, until it came- Now where are we now? I’ve lost my self a little bit.
CB: Just stop a minute.
BY: In, I’d never heard of it before, the Flight Sergeant Warrant Officer in charge of the hangar, who was the boss and you know, you know that sort of, the power they had, you know, they’d do this that and other, you can’t do this, you can’t do that, you must do this, you know, that sort of business, and he was, he was a West Indian, and in those days, you know, when you met a coloured man, you- It was unusual, and he was a boss there, and he was the boss all the time I was there. I don’t- What it- Where he ended up, I don’t know, but he was very efficient. There’s no doubt about that. So that’s-
CB: How did he get on with the-
BY: I think he got on very well, we, we respected him, you didn’t- You respected authority in those days but we were, we were sort of brought up at Halton to sort of respect authority, you know, and-
CB: So, you arrived at the airfield, what did they do as soon as you arrived?
BY: Well I mean we’d already gone through the fundamentals of- Medicals and all that sort at Halton, you know, we’d had a very good briefing there, we’d learnt a lot about air force law, and drill ‘cause we- Friday afternoons was the drill, Monday- Wednesday afternoons was sports afternoon, Friday afternoons was ceremonial drill, and in between we were taken to a study room to read- to study, or be read the air force law to us, what we should do and what we shouldn’t do, and of course we got the King’s Shilling at the time.
CB: At Harwell?
BY: At Harwell, yeah.
CB: So, you arrive, it’s one of the expansion period air fields-
BY: Oh, it was yeah
CB: -so it’s well set up-
BY: Well, I don’t know whether you- You’re aware of this but Lord Trenchard in 19- When he was the head of the metropolitan police, he looks at the Air Force and he said, ‘We’re all behind, we’re backward,’ compared to the Germans and all- ‘We’ve got to get a force of grammar school boys,’ and especially grammar, ‘who’ll take an examination, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and fit them and train them to be the ground force of the RAF regardless’.
CB: Yep.
BY: Regardless at the time, you know, what- But there was quite a few people that applied for aircrew at that time and then after about- And I applied but I was, I was a bit late in applying, and at that time the Air Ministry said, ‘Right no more ground crew, we’re not going to spend money training you people for two-and-a-half, three years, and send you off flying and lose you in, in no time’. So, they focused- I don’t quite know what they- How they focussed their attacks on getting more aircrew into Bomber Command and Fighter Command and all the communication and, you know, air sea rescue and all this sort of thing. Not air sea rescue, command control they called it, not air sea rescue, command control.
CB: Coastal Command?
BY: Yeah, Coastal Command, yes.
CB: Well, it was expanding fast.
BY: Yeah, and so he, he emphasised that we gotta get- We’re having an entry of every two months- Every two year, every May- Twice a year.
CB: Yes
BY: Twice a year.
CB: Into Halton?
BY: Into Halton, and Halton was getting a bit overloaded it was four big squadrons there then and we- Then they formed us into five squadron, and we- Then they took us to Cosford, but we had the same standard of education and we all had to go and get the same trade test as well. We had to go to- In those days we had to get a trade test as well so, before you passed out into your squadrons or whatever, and a good job- A good majority of us, you know, had to what they called the warning of going overseas, and I went overseas on the 1st of January- Well I, I left home, left my father and mother on the 1st of January 1941.
CB: Right. Can we just go back to the Halton bit?
BY: Yep
CB: Because it’s quite important here, I think. What was the routine? You’re young, you’re sixteen, you join the air force and you’re in a barrack block-
BY: Yes, indeed.
CB: -with a dormitory, so how many people in the dormitory?
BY: About thirty, and being a clerk before I joined up, most had come straight from school.
CB: Yes
BY: I was the, room clerk so I had to take a name, address and next of kin and all that. So that was my job which in a way was a better job than doing the ablutions or, you know, dust under the bed and, you know, that sort of thing, centre floor. So that was my job and that was the first thing we did at when we got- We had be registered and then what information, detail went to the office and all that sort of thing. Of course, we- All letters home had to be censored, and it started on from there.
CB: Was there censorship before the war?
BY: No, no, not to my knowledge.
CB: Right. When you, when you got up in the morning, what time of day was that?
BY: Six-thirty.
CB: Ok, then what?
BY: Six-thirty, and breakfast was half-past seven to half-past eight all properly dressed, no nonsense. Three mornings a week, we had to get up at six and that was for PT. Not very strenuous but get some fresh air and running out, loosening your limbs from lying in bed. Our bed time, for the first year, was nine-thirty, we had to be in bed by nine-thirty and lights out at ten o’ clock. It was no smoking until you were eighteen, and then you only smoked in certain parts. Lights out, as I say and as the next year went on until we left, you carried on the same routine. I think the- I think we could, light’s out was at ten o’ clock, but we still carried on a routine of breakfast, to the hangar, orderly dressed, if you didn’t- If you weren't orderly dressed- I mean I was caught once wearing a pair of red socks, somebody saw me, took my name and I was jankers, you know what that is?
CB: Yes, so you, well you’d better explain- What are jankers?
BY: [Laughs] Well jankers, first of all you had to report to the guard room, with your best blue on at six o’ clock, at night, and a nine o’ clock. You were inspected by the, by the orderly officer or the sergeant, and which then were detailed to the severity of your crime, into the cookhouse to scrub the floor or, do any duties that were necessary there, and that’s really what it worked out to be. So you were punished, you either got three days or seven days. If you were a really naughty boy and done something really serious you might be sent out to a, a sort of home where they vetted you and gave you a suitable punishment. I remember one situation, I can recall where we took an engine out of- Took a pega- ‘Cause the Pegasus and in-lines used in the Wellington at that time, as a sort of spare. What they could get hold of really, suitable, and this fellow, he had to drain the oil obviously, and he disconnected the oil and the engine, under the coupling to the and shot it out, and shot off the, oil of the tank which was remaining in the petrol tank, I think it was about thirty gallons of oil in this petrol tank and the-
CB: Oil tank, yeah.
BY: And instead of just screwing the thing up, he poked a bit of rag in first of all and screwed it up, eventually the aircraft crashed because the next person undid the union, connected up to the engine, are you with me?
CB: He didn’t know that there was a rag in there.
BY: He didn’t know that there was a rag in there, and that obstructed the flow, and the aircraft crashed because there was a seizure on the engine and he was sent up to field punishment camp.
CB: What happened to the crew?
BY: The crew, I believe were killed. I wouldn’t like to say for definite on that, the aircraft definitely crashed.
CB: A thing like that’s very serious, so to what extent would the- At what point would a court-martial be convened for that sort of thing?
BY: Well, you’d go there- I expect- I don’t know whether, whether it was tantamount to a court-martial, I think it is. If you were sent to the- What is it, what was I, called the name? The home?
CB: The punishment.
BY: The punishment home, if you were sent there the odds are that you would take a service court-martial.
CB: Right.
BY: And every time you were a minor punishment, like I just mentioned what I did with my socks or, you know, I- You had to go in front the CO, and wait in a corridor ten minutes and let him get his breath and you’d get your breath back, and you march in and salute him and all that sort of thing and, the charge was there, with the corporal and sergeant that had found you, that sort of thing, you know, that sort of thing. But, you know, it taught us discipline, and it taught us how to- You know, you got to draw the line sometime, you can’t do what you like, you were treated well, the food was very good in wartime and right up to- Food was very good. Our education, we had twenty-five hours at workshop and fifteen hours in schools, and I always remember the first, the first day at school- We were presented with, the unification of- The one before, oh I don’t, I can’t think of the name, but it was quite severe. I was out of touch really, and I- We sat in, in a order in the schools, alphabetically, so the fellow sat beside me was a brighter boy than I was and he was a good lad and he used to help me a little bit with my sort of, you know, sneaking across a piece of paper and the answer to one of the things. Unification of something, what is it? What is that, a receive before, before algebra? Anyway, it was quite severe and, our history was about the air force, how it was formed, what the blue means and all that sort of thing and the various stations around the company and the general studies was about the various historical, which would affect the air force. We had a good sort of grounding there.
CB: So when did you actually join the apprentice scheme at Halton? It was ’37 entry, when was that?
BY: January ’38.
CB: Right.
BY: I had to report in January ’38. I took the examination in Weston-Super-Mare, in I suppose about- I think it was about September, something like that.
CB: Yeah, and then the course finished after how many years?
BY: Well, the course finished just under two years, we didn’t do the three years because the situation was such that they wanted to cram as much in as they possibly could, you know, we used a few more hours and with a little bit more private study and all that sort of thing. So-But on balance the boys that stayed at Halton, or the ones at Cosford finished at the same time, with the same ability.
CB: Yeah
BY: Group one, we were group one tradesmen, a Fitter2. At this stage, after the war, I with about, about seven or eight-hundred other ones, got converted. You see I was qualified at that time- When I passed out, I was qualified to do any job, to do with the engines, aircraft engines, take the prop off, all that sort of thing, hydraulics and various numatics, and such like. The other tradesmen had their sort of- We never touched any armaments or that was their job, and the wires, nothing to do with that sort of thing.
CB: So you were technically an engine fitter?
BY: And then after the war, I did one year's course to convert me to the air frame side of it, so consequently when I left- We had this course at Locking, RAF Locking in Weston-Super-Mare and when I left that one, I was qualified to do anything on any aircraft you see. That was very handy for the airport because during my time at Halton- At Harwell, there were always visiting aircraft coming in, and if you were a duty flight you had to see to them and deal to them, see what they wanted and see them off. Usually, the crew stayed in the mess or the officers mess or the sergeants mess, that night and off they went for somewhere else. So that was our responsibility, to deal with any visiting aircraft.
CB: And what extra training did you get while you were at Harwell on modern aircraft? Was the Wellington-
BY: We studied, we studied the in-line engine and we studied the radial engine at Halton.
CB: Yes.
BY: In fact we started off studying Morris motors engine.
CB: Did you?
BY: That was our first job, you know, when they introduced us to the internal combustion engines. So, they started off that and we learnt what, you know, what- How tappets worked and the valves and- I mean I didn’t have a clue when I, when I came, sort of thing, but you soon pick it up don’t you?
CB: Well, it was good training wasn’t it?
BY: Oh absolutely, ‘cause I would- And even Geoff will tell you the same thing, the best time of his life was at- In the boy’s service, you know, the apprentice service.
CB: Now talking about that, we talked about you being in a room in the barrack block, thirty people. Was there a corporal in a room at the end in his own?
BY: Oh yes, yes.
CB: So how did that work, there’s a single room at the end with a corporal in it?
BY: Yes, I can remember his name, Corporal Ratcliffe his name was, he was our corporal in boy’s service. He was a very nice chap, he was a sergeant apprentice.
CB: Oh
BY: And he- In one of the earlier entries obviously.
CB: Yes, yeah.
BY: And he was- Well he just kept order, you know, if we lost anything it was up to him to sort it out, and any real complaints we went to him and he would carry the complaint on to, you know, his senior sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, so he controlled the room.
BY: He did control it, but, every morning the orderly sergeant came in at half-past six and shouted, if anyone was in bed, they didn’t stay in bed very long.
CB: So, you get up and you wash, what do you do about the beds?
BY: Oh, it’s most important, folded up your blanket, two blankets and a sheet, a pair of sheets, folded up neatly, stacked up- Our beds were Macdonald[?] beds, sort of-
CB: Two billows deep?
BY: Yeah, close them up to a sort of a sitting distance, sort of thing, from that, from that distance down to there, and you had to pack your, your blankets and your alternate levels and make it look tidy, and your pyjamas on there. The-
CB: Then there was a-
BY: Then the laundry business. We had two avenues for our laundry, the laundry was our boiler suits, ‘cause we all wore boiler- And do you know, we had to wear a tie then, in the hangar room all the time, collar and tie, it's crazy isn’t it? But we had to wear it, if you see anything on the pictures, you see- So we had a [unclear] avenue, a special bag with our names, that was most important, you had to get your names on all your equipment, and then for the other bag, for your- What you called you domestic, was your towels, I think we had two lots, two towels a week and shirts, collars and detachable-
CB: Detachable collar, yes.
BY: Socks, and basic things in that thing, and your sheets. Oh, the sheets went in another basket that’s right, they went into another basket.
CB: How many pairs of sheets did you get a week?
BY: Oh we used to get- I think we got clean sheets, real clean sheets every fortnight.
CB: Right, yeah.
BY: I think that’s what we had to do. So, that was an alternative sort of, pack your bag with washing.
CB: So, there was an inspection of the beds, and the blankets every morning?
BY: The orderly officer came round every morning, while we were on parade. We- And to go to the hangar we paraded at half-past eight in our lines, you had to answer your call- Answer, it was a roll call, and then we- In the boys service we had to march to our schools or our workshop but when we got to the squadron, to 148 Squadron I was on, we just more or less- We just walked to the hangar, and the Warrant Officer he knew who was who sort of thing, he knew who was missing and then, and then in those days we had a restroom, we’d a break and restroom in which we had a chap who wasn’t an apprentice and he was responsible for making the tea and, he had an avenue of going out and getting tea- What we called tea and wads for us, and he made us feel- And we had to pay him, I don’t know, pay a tuppence a week or something like that, he made a living out of that, sort of thing, subsidises his letter income, and the money we got, in the boys service, was a shilling a day. Right, and we could allocate four shillings of that to the post office, to the post office or any other form that your parents wish you. So that’s the sort of- When we went on holiday, our end of term, which was about twelve or fourteen weeks, we would get instead of picking up three shillings at the pay table, we would pick up about ten, eleven pounds just, you know, to satisfy, to go and-
CB: A lot of money in those days.
BY: It was a lot of money, but didn’t seem to last for long ‘cause we had to find our own soap, our own toothpaste, our own chocolate and toothbrushes to [unclear], but the [unclear], hairbrushes, combs you had to find ‘cause they were always being lost, or, you know, that sort of thing, so we made this- And then there quite a little bit of trading going on, you know, if you got broke say you’ll borrow a shilling for one sixpence to return, sort of thing [chuckles] it’s funny really. Mind you, all this is- I’m trying to talk- Remember eighty years ago, you know.
CB: Exactly. Now on that, because this is so different from today-
BY: Oh I don’t- I-
CB: When you went to eat, where did you eat? This is at Halton, where did you eat?
BY: In the cookhouse, what we called the cookhouse.
CB: Right, how big was that?
BY: Oh quite a big place, but it had to, to accommodate sort of each squadron.
CB: And the squadron was how many people?
BY: Hundred-and-twenty, hundred-and-fifty, that sort of thing. I might be inaccurate by that, these numbers, my mind might forget little-
CB: And the menu was-
BY: The menu was very good
CB: - was fixed or, choice?
BY: We had a good breakfast, a good lunch and at tea-time we had cake, and bread and butter and jam, and syrup was always on the table. It- When I got to the squadron, I’d been put on night flying, the night flying duties were as such, you did a day- We’ll say night flying was on Monday night, you got to the hangar Monday morning, you would do your job, you’d be working on the aircraft which is flying that night, and every aircraft that fly that night had to have night flying test. So aircraft had to fly in the afternoon, late afternoon and the pilot would check it and do- He didn’t- They only did a sort of large circuit and all that sort of thing, and if it's come back it was all right, if it’s a small item, it was put right and then you were called according to the time of day, I mean night flying would start- This time of year it would start about 7 o’ clock, and [unclear] the pilots would do- Or the air [unclear] would do two sorties. Three hours, come back, refuel and another three hours, maybe two hours, it depends on what the circumstances were. So, I mean, you know, that was a night flying programme. I know I'm a bit disjointed but you can all sort this, when you read it I'm sure. And then on occasion- This is interesting, when you were on night flying duty, or in duty crew, you had to see any aircraft in and sometimes they came in at night and they would land in between two rows of flare paths, and the flare path, no electrics, it was like a paraffin watering can with wick coming out the spout [chuckles] yes, you’re smiling, this is true though, and the line I think was about twenty
CB: This is paraffin?
BY: Paraffin, and the aircraft would land in between that, and it was a tedious job you had to go, you know, you might- We didn’t have a vehicle to do everything, mostly the vehicles were for driving the petrol bowsers about, so you couldn’t do that, but to go to one end of the airfield to the other you had to walk, or bicycle, or whatever, and- So we had to put these flare paths out then, when it was daylight, they all had to come in, it would be twiched[?] and checked- Make sure they’re serviceable for the next night, it was everything. But, it’s a bit hazardous sometimes, if one had blown over or something like that, and you were told by the flying control to go out and see to that, take another one out, and, you know the RT wasn’t all that clever, and if you had to land with something, you know at that time- Pretty precarious.
CB: So how was the communication on the airport- field? Was it- ‘Cause there was no radio so was it done by flash light?
BY: Yep
CB: Or morse code?
BY: Aldis lamp
CB: Yeah, aldis lamp?
BY: It- The aircraft would come in and flash the green light if it’s ok, and you would reply with that. If, wasn’t- If you weren’t ready, it was a red light and they’d have to go round and come again, sort of thing like- That was the basic sort of thing. Where are we now?
CB: So as you’re onto that, what communication did you actually have with the aircrew themselves?
BY: Very good. They were, you know, more or less you were- Your aircraft was his aircraft and his aircraft were yours and, you know, you saw him off, he knew you and that sort of thing.
CB: Were you normally in communication, ‘cause there are five or six people on the Wellington, so were you talking to the pilot?
BY: Oh yes, well mainly- We talked to the pilot and the navigator and they would come up, but mainly the pilot because he’d know the condition of the engine, if there was anything wrong or if there was a mag drop or no oil pressure or, or the heating was not, not good, it was overheating sort of thing, and-The armourers, if it was, if it was- Had to be armed they, they trolleyed in with their weapons and opened the bomb doors and, did that sort of thing, so it- We all had- It was very organised and there was the petrol bowsers- for starting up, you’d plug in, you know, and make sure the battery was charged there, that sort of thing. The trolley acc’s, we used to call pushed them out there.
CB: Yeah, so the trolley acc is a trolley accumulator to start the engine isn’t it?
BY: Yeah, and at night-time you got into a routine and when you saw the aircraft come in you had two lights sort of thing, you’d wave them in sort of thing. In those days the connection between the ground crew and aircrew was very good, extremely good- Well they- You were responsible for their safety and they were responsible, you know, for the safety in flying, you know.
CB: You had responsibility for certain aircraft only, not all of them?
BY: Well, it depended Chris, you know, how long we, you know- What the situation was, every day is different.
CB: Yep.
BY: So that takes us up to- And then our first bombing on this aircraft- On this airfield. I was in the cockpit and I remember quite vividly what I was doing. I was adjusting the controls to the elevators from the cockpit, and I was- And suddenly there was a- The air warden siren went and I could just see bombers going down the, sort of runway line dropping sort of bombs, not very big, they didn’t do much damage. But after that they decided this was dangerous, we’re gonna- One of these days it’s gonna hit the hangar, they’re either going to bomb the hangar or they’re going to bomb headquarters. So every night at the end of the day we were bussed out to a village called East Hendred, which was the home of the race horse stables, ‘cause that was a hot race- Newbury and all that areas, and we lived in stables there for quite a long while. Right until the end, until I went overseas, and all we had in these stables- But we, we were fed by bus to the, to the unit, come- You know, we had our meal in the evening before we left, and we were taken down for our breakfast in the morning, sort of thing. But, the heating in the- All we had in the stables was two beds and blankets, as I told you, two blankets and sheets- No we didn’t have sheets, we had blankets, just blankets, and in the corner was a sort of shelf which they used to put the hay, stack the hay in and we used to put our bits and pieces in there or, and we had no heating except valor heating, valor stoves do you remember the valor stoves? You remember them Chris, don’t you?
CB: Oh yes, yeah.
BY: And that would heat our water to have a good wash and shave at night.
CB: You just put it on top?
BY: Yeah, and it was only two of us to a stable, so it was enough on a big bowl to wipe our, and then we wandered off in the evening to the village- East Hendred is a place, you’ll see it on a map now, it was a very-
CB: I know it well.
BY: You know it well?
CB: Yeah, yeah.
BY: And it was a stables, the owner was a man called Bell, Dr Bell I think, he owned a string- And another thing, we used to see the horses go across in the very early hours of the morning being led off in the downs, you know, in the distance. Nowhere near the airport, but it was a good country to live in really.
CB: What about the social life?
BY: The social life wasn’t very much, really, well we had a NAAFI, and we used to go in there and we could- There was a couple billiard tables and that sort of thing, we played billiards quite often. You just took your turn with it, dartboards, crib boards and table skittles, all that sort of thing, and we were after a while allowed to go out in the village and have a drink and all that sort of thing. It, you know- All blackout mind, severe blackout, it was quite fun at times but you know where you are, you know.
CB: But the local towns were not exactly on the doorstep, so the nearest one was Abingdon really, so did you get to Abingdon?
BY: No, it was good, you know, looking back now. I can think quite a lot about it now. But this carried on more or less, you know, until we were called for- What were they called? Advanced order for overseas, and they told us, it was about November that we were going overseas. So we had some warning to tell our parents and all that sort of thing.
CB: Is this 1940, ’40?
BY: This is the end of 1940, December 1940.
CB: Right.
BY: And then we set off, and when we went off there, we went to Hednesford, and we assembled at Hednesford. When we, when we had our date to ride- Mine was the 25th of January, and it was at the other entry, or the other group was 18th of January, so they took it in two- There was too many to- It was eight-hundred, to many to manage straight away so that's how we worked it out. We had assembly at Hednesford, and then we were entrained to Didcot, and when we got to Didcot we sort of- There was a coach to take us to Halton.
CB: What was your most memorable recollection, would you say, of being in Bomber Command at Harwell?
BY: Well, my servicing of aircraft there, the general tidying up of the- After an aircraft came back from their sorties, they were tidied up, got a lot of these pamphlets, these nickel sort of things hanging around-
CB: Yes, it was called nickelling wasn’t it?
BY: Yeah, and they were dated, you know, each- I think they were re-written every- Or printed about every fortnight or something like that.
CB: In your recollection how did the crew react to dropping leaflets instead of bombs?
BY: Well, I don’t know, most of them were not all that experienced, because after a while a bomber got introduced to the fifteen- It became the fifteen OTU Operational Training Unit, and that sort of combined, the activity of Bomber Command and Training Command under the umbrella of Bomber Command.
CB: Yeah, to increase their effectiveness they formed the Operational Training Unit.
BY: That’s right yeah. Well, they were so concerned, the Air Ministry were so concerned about the number of pilots they were losing and crews in respect of Bomber Command and every other aircraft, they were losing aircraft very quickly. Thank goodness there was such thing as University Air Force Squadrons, you know, all the squadrons and they supplied, and the pilots that were trained mostly through gliding before the war, they were very much, they filled the gap.
CB: They were so desperate for aircrew but they couldn’t fill the gaps.
BY: Absolutely, and of course- And then when, then- We’ll go on now- Shall we leave now and go onto the-
CB: Yes, let’s just go back to Halton, let’s just go back to the Halton bit because this actually is fundamental to your whole career isn’t it?
BY: Oh it is, it was. It was the making of me.
CB: Yes, so we talked about the, the mechanics of getting up in the morning and the disciplined aspects but you had breakfast which was until eight-thirty.
BY: Well, we had to be on parade at eight-thirty.
CB: Eight-thirty parade, so how long was the parade?
BY: And you had to be buttons cleaned, hat badge clean, you know, and, sort of thing, I mean a lot of that was done the night before, if you’re not careful.
CB: Yeah, yeah, and were you good at spit and polish on your toecaps?
BY: Oh yeah, well, well they were clean, they- We didn’t come up to the army guards, that sort of thing, but they had to be clean, you know, and haircuts, short-haircut. I mean there’s one story about- I don’t know how true this is, a Warrant Officer used to walk around the bill with a pair of clippers in his hand and if he saw a chap with long hair, he’d just run a little avenue at the back of his head, and he’d have to go-
CB: On one side only.
BY: And there was the camp barber, of course.
CB: Yep.
BY: He was a civilian. There was also a place where you could get your shoes [unclear], but didn’t very often get your shoes ‘cause they were good quality boots. We had boots first of all.
CB: Did you have to-
BY: Hurt my feet first of all, but you soldiered on sort of thing.
CB: So, the parade would last how long in the morning?
BY: Oh now, very quickly. The order was, the orderly officer and the orderly sergeant would be posted at the end of the square, with the [unclear] and reveille would be sounded there and then, and then the flag would be hoisted to its position, and then (I was telling the boys about this the other night) the orderly officer would call the parade to attention, that was a whole wing parade that was, quite a lot of boys there, apprentices, and then they would say ‘Fall out the Roman Catholics and Jews,’ and they had- And we all had to go, or whoever it was, in that denomination and get on with this- We had to go to the back of the square and face the opposite direction, while the padre appeared, said a prayer and that was it, sort of thing, and then this would last for a few minutes and then we were called back, and we’d have to sort of about turn, march back sensibly and take our position in the ranks and- And at any time, if you weren’t on the parade and when- At night-time, I think it was about an hour before dark, the last post was sounded, and you had to stand still if you were in sight of it. You didn’t have to salute or did you have to? No, you didn’t- Had to stand still. I mean this is the sort of thing- Can you imagine a sixteen-year-old now wanting to do that sort of thing? They’d laugh you all the way down the road, wouldn’t they? I mean we did it normally.
CB: Yeah, part of the discipline
BY: And felt proud, you know, we all did it together. We’d talk, you know- There was an awful lot of gossip, and we’d play cards, and things like that in the barrack room, but we didn’t play- But in the NAAFI, it was quite a- There was a games room in which there was plenty of, you know-
CB: Quite a hum?
BY: Oh yeah.
CB: And what could you drink in the NAAFI?
BY: Ah, now, only tea and coffee, tea and cocoa, tea and cocoa and, and-
CB: No beers?
BY: No beers, not to my knowledge, not in the boys service.
CB: ‘Cause of the age we’re talking about?
BY: Yeah, the boys service-
CB: Under eighteen.
BY: Or no smoking, you might nip away to the drying room, have a crafty cigarette, but if you were caught you were in, you were-
CB: In for jankers really?
BY: Jankers, with a yellow band round your arm.
CB: Clear identity.
BY: Clear identity.
CB: What about Sunday’s then? Church parade?
BY: Sunday’s, yes, church parade and we all had to- Every Sunday was church parade and we went to ours- Sometimes they had to march to Albrighton when we were at Cosford or, I don’t know where we went at Halton, oh I think there was a, there was two churches at Halton and we had the services there, but it was a quiet day sort of thing. The rest of the day you could do what you like, go back to your billet, go to bed or- And look, you had to attend your meals at a certain time or you didn’t get any. It was usually I think from twelve to half-past-one or something like that, and I always remember at tea time we always had a nice slice of beef and a slice of ham, and there was cakes on the table and there was bread and butter and there was jam, you know, not marmite, I don’t think things like that, but there was syrup, treacle we used to call it, sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, and would you have a dinner later?
BY: No, no. That- not on a Sunday that was the end, but we had a dinner at six o’ clock, so that was our last thing.
CB: So you had tea time and then dinner?
BY: Yes, yeah.
CB: In the weekday.
BY: Yep, weekday yeah. Sunday’s was exception really but we didn’t, you know, I suppose that depended on the, sort of, the manpower of the cooks and people there. They had to have time off and-
CB: And how did you get on with the local population when you went out of the camp?
BY: Oh very well, we had to- When you went out you had to wear a uniform, so you knew who you were and it was a long time before you could go out in mufti sort of thing. I think on the whole, it was, really seemed good. They knew, they knew- I mean the local population they knew what had gone on sort of thing. In Didcot, you know, in the shops they knew who you were and all this sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, so when you’re on station then, so when you were in Harwell, going out then that wasn’t the same sort of restriction ‘cause a) you are adult and b) you are part of the RAF?
BY: That’s right, that’s right, yeah. You had- You could smoke then if you wanted to, and- I can’t remember. Yes, I think we could go into a pub, I think. I don’t- I’m not certain about that, I won’t say one thing or the other.
CB: But you had to be in uniform whatever?
BY: Yes, yeah. In those days.
CB: Yeah, so what was the competition for social events with aircrew?
BY: Oh, there was inter-squadron football, rugby, hockey, cross-country, you know, all that sort of thing, on a Wednesday afternoon, and on Friday afternoons, ceremonial drill, and the bagpipes had their ribbons, they were all dressed up and a band drummer and there was a separate barrack room for the band. If you were in the band, you lived there. You were still in the [unclear] squadron but, domestically you lived there mainly for practicing for- The noise, trumpets and all the various instruments they had, it would be enclosed in that barrack, you wouldn’t disturb the others, and we had rooms for private sort of study, where you could go if you were- Hadn’t done very well in your subjects and you were- Had to smarten up and all that sort of thing.
CB: So at Hal-
BY: We had a very good library and-
CB: That’s at Har- At Halton?
BY: Yeah.
CB: At Harwell-
BY: I can’t remember much about- It was a working town there. You had to get down to it you know-
CB: Harwell is twenty-four-seven isn’t it?
BY: Absolutely.
CB: Because it’s wartime, every day is the working day. So how did you get a day off, was it sometimes- Was it on a rota or what?
BY: I think we get a weekend now and again on a rota sort of thing.
CB: Because flying would carry on at the weekend as well as daytime, weekday.
BY: That’s right yeah, and it was easy- And in those days you could go outside the camp and somebody would pick you up, I mean you would hitch hike from Harwell down to, down to Bridgewater and- Quite easily. You might have eight or nine [unclear] and people would- Who were driving they- It was the exception if you had a vehicle, a trade vehicle, it would stop and pick you up, there was no compulsory, all that sort of thing.
CB: So what we’re talking about, you were nineteen when you- At Harwell, and then-
BY: Well, I was twenty-one, I had my twentieth birthday I think when I was at Harwell.
CB: Still at Harwell?
BY: Yeah
CB: Yeah.
BY: So in the time when we to field the- load our rifles with fifty rounds of ammunition hoping to shoot a parachutist down, you know, somewhere round my birthday sort of thing.
CB: So what sort of training had you had for shooting?
BY: Oh, we used to go- We had to- You had a training place where you got- You could practice two-hundred-yards and five-hundred-yards. But that was well-managed and you had to be very careful-
CB: That was off the airfield?
BY: Oh yes, yeah, and of course, all the guns at the time were kept in the armoury, we never had any guns in the billets or anything, firearms and all that sort of thing, it were all in the armoury and that was pretty well guarded, you had to go in and sign for the gun or whatever, the number and-
CB: When the war started, often aircraft were put away in the hangars at night, what happened at Harwell?
BY: Well, in most places, in Halton- Well mainly talking about Harwell, places we had a sort of open-ended sort of shelter, built of sandbags for the aircraft to go in just in case there was a- [unclear] shrapnel or whatever, damage and, but one or two was damaged and we lost one or two at Harwell, obviously, aircraft. But latter on in my- After the war days I mean, we lost very few planes, most of the pilots were very, very accomplished and very [unclear] because they survived the war and a lot of them had got glider training.
CB: Oh, glider training. Let’s just pause there for a bit. So, Air Force Law, how much did you get of that? At Halton?
BY: Well, you had confidentiality of any activities that were on the camp, like bombing raids, or things like that, never, I suppose it was violated so many times but that was the rule. Air Force Law, what to wear, the history- It was a book about that thick, it was the air force bible sort of thing, and it went right through from the early days of the amalgamation of the-
CB: The Royal Flying Corps
BY: -the army, the naval and-
CB: The Naval Air Service-
BY: - and the Air Force as in those- 1918 when it was started properly and it was a book and all that- It was read to us and we could ask questions and, it’s a difficult question being asked of law. There were rules and regulations which, kept the service as a service sort of thing. I can’t stipulate exactly what they were but I mean, they were rules such as that.
CB: Well, we had the original Official Secrets Act?
BY: Yes, that’s right.
CB: How was that described to you?
BY: Well, that was read to us.
CB: Right.
BY: And there was a notice up on every barrack room entry and all that sort of thing, and beside that was a fire bucket, two fire buckets, one was sand- Or two with sand, ready to put out any fire and a sort of a fire extinguisher on a hook beside in the barrack rooms. So that was, that was one of the laws of things about safety. The laws of safety, the laws of sort of discipline, there was laws of confidentiality, cleanliness and, you know- And of course the other thing that we had quite frequently was VD inspections. You had to stand in a line, drop your trousers and they would- The Medical Officer would come round and check all that sort of thing, you know, and that- I don’t think that mattered too much when we were in the boys service but when we got into Bomber Command that was in- Well that was the natural because, I don’t know if you read any of the book of Bomber Command, they- A lot of them were terribly-
CB: Infected?
BY: Well, I’ve got a book in there it’s, I’ve forgotten what his name is but it’s one of the most in-depth sorts of stories that you can read about what happened in Bomber Command, the crews- The couldn’t care less once they, you know, they focused on their job at question. Their lives at- Anything else was-
CB: Life expectancy was so short.
BY: Yeah. They didn’t know whether they were coming back or not, they were coming back it was jolly good but if they didn’t, you know- And of course they were all young men a lot of them were all, twenty-two, my cousin was only twenty-two.
CB: And the term station bicycle, was running in those days?
BY: Is that- Yes oh yes, well sort of thing, I know what you mean, I know exactly what you mean.
CB: What about security, where-
BY: Oh security, you got in trouble if you broke out. You had to be in at all levels, in the boys service you had to be in by, I think it was ten o’ clock at night. You had to be in your billet by ten o’ clock.
CB: Well, part of the legal aspect, was also related to a comment you made earlier about sabotage, so what was the issue with sabotage and who were these saboteurs, potentially?
BY: Well, the German aircraft, the German prisoner of wars that were already captured and were in camps in England and wherever, and they all wore a special uniform, of big yellow patch on their elbow and something. They would recognise them quite easily, sort of thing, but- And they did a lot of good work because they were put to work you see, building walls and things like that, and all sorts of things. But I think the main worry about the whole service aspect was, the shortage of food because you see, I haven’t spoken to you about this but my trip on the troop ship was- I can tell you quite a bit about that but the, the U-boats- that were shot down, or sunk rather in the North Atlantic in February, March was amazing, and they were carrying food from Canada, from America, from South Africa, from anywhere, the West Indies, wherever they could get food to England, and, you know, that’s why the drive for dig for victory, you know that slogan? You know, that- Everybody had- I mean sports field, stadiums were ripped up and turned into allotments-
CB: And on the airfield itself, there was a vegetable growing patch was there? And also-
BY: No I can’t remember one really, the only thing I remember was a tremendous sort of- On every camp was petrol dump and that was guarded and surrounded and, you know, all- Every security was made to maintain that, sort of thing.
CB: And the coal dump?
BY: Oh yeah, yeah. I’ll get the boys get another cup-
CB: Ok we’ll stop there. When we were talking about law earlier, there’s Civil Law and Air Force Law but the concentration was really on Air Force Law, to what extent did you learn about Civil Law as well?
BY: Well, I feel that, if you committed a crime and the crime reached a certain level it would have to be tried by Civil Law as well, and- Does that help?
CB: Yeah. It was just putting things into context wasn’t it?
BY: Yes, I mean- May I put it another way, that the Air Force, or the services are not solely responsible for the law of the land.
CB: No
BY: It assists obviously, and they guide and the sort of, you know, they do all the speed work for it, but at the end of the day it’s the same as all laws- I mean it seems that, that [unclear] does, all goes through but they don’t always take note of stuff ‘cause they don’t know, they don’t understand it, I mean she’s been at that game for- What is she now? Sixty-nine, she’s been on it thirty years.
CB: Your daughter?
BY: Yes.
CB: But in the air force context, then it's always stressed is it not that the ultimate sanction they have is the courts-martial?
BY: Correct, yes that’s right.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
BY: The war, only as- When they were in captive, not how they were kept, and what conditions they met led up to them being captive for what they were doing, sort of thing, I can’t say any more than that.
CB: Where were they housed? When you were at Harwell, where were they housed?
BY: To be quite honest I can’t tell you, I didn’t see- I saw more of them later on in the service life.
CB: Yeah.
BY: When I came back from overseas, I was- Because they didn’t get out- They didn’t get home straight away, sort of thing, they, on their own.
CB: No, but in the early stages then we’ve got aircrew who’d been shot down and that sort of thing.
BY: I think the majority of the prisoner of wars didn’t want anything- They were quite happy, they were fed well, they, you know, they had communication to- That’s another thing, we didn’t have any communications you see, nothing at all it was no- There was no- Or might be how today, I mean, things happen so quickly now.
CB: Yeah.
BY: Don’t they and I mean-
CB: Were your parents allowed to know where you were serving in the RAF?
BY: Oh yes, oh yeah, they knew where I was staying but they didn’t know anything about- ‘Cause the only information that I had with them was by- We used, what they called aerograph[?], it was a sort of a, I don’t know how it worked but I presume it was telephone- By telephone to some paper company in England and sort of transgressed that way.
CB: This is when you were abroad?
BY: Oh yeah.
CB: But when you were at home, that is to say at Harwell-
BY: Well at Harwell, I came home quite- Several days- Several weekends, that was several weekend- I suppose I came home- I was there best part of a year and I suppose I came home about three times that year. So I had some idea- Did we have our tea? Fair minded answer he could’ve given me.
CB: Yes, the parents supported you but they- Indirectly.
BY: Yeah, at Halton they- I think they wrote to the padre and found out how I was getting on, so- But mind you, on the first day when we went to Halton there was quite a few went back by train the next morning. I don’t want to live in-
CB: I can believe it, yeah.
BY: I don’t want to live in a situation like this.
CB: Yeah, even though it’s- Well in peacetime they had the choice.
BY: Oh yeah, yeah.
CB: Yeah, when I joined a man left after one night ‘cause he couldn’t stand being in a dormitory. When the war started-
BY: I wonder what he would’ve been like in the stable?
CB: Oh, nightmare.
BY: Oswald Bell, that’s the man, Oswald Bell he was the owner of a fleet of horses in that part, East Hendred and-
CB: When the war started in September ’39 you were still at Cosford, when did the control of letters start?
BY: Oh when I went overseas.
CB: Right. Not when you were in the UK?
BY: No, I don’t think so, I can’t remember so. But, I mean, I had the- In those days you could ring up home I think, but once you got abroad that was it sort of thing.
CB: Yeah.
BY: Do you want me to tell you a little bit about troop ship life?
CB: We do, so where did you embark?
BY: From Liverpool, and we went- I told you we assembled at Hednesford and we all marched to- ‘Cause in those days there was a railway station right on the quayside at Liverpool. I think well, I don’t know where the dock was, or, well it doesn’t matter what the name of the dock was, but we all assembled there and we all looked up and we said (there was about fifteen-hundred of us) ‘Are we sailing that thing?’. It was an eight or nine-thousand pound boat, used to be hauling before the war, before the Air Ministry got hold of it, was hauling sort of meat from south of- Argentina to Britain ‘cause we had a lot of meat from Argentina before the war, you know, and anyway, we looked at that thing and we turned round, then were down at the gangplank an’ we were marched up there, and there was not- It was amazing, well it beggars belief, that to house twelve to fifteen-hundred men, there was about five toilets, there was no proper mess decks where we could sit down and have our meals. It was a shambles, and, fortunately we had one officer- We had beside tradesmen, this fifteen-hundred tradesmen we had three balloon squadrons there, it was- There were not very many in the squadron but the leader of the balloon squadron was a, was an officer called Garry Marsh, he was a film star, he made several films if you go through the film industry you’ll see his name and he was Bill [unclear] and all these sort of things, and he stood by us and he said, ‘This is not on,’ he said, and he allowed us, or encouraged us to walk down the gangplank and walk of the ship, and we all walked off the ship down the- Nearly everybody walked off, and there was a crowd on the quayside and here and there, there was an embarkation officer who’s duty was to, to deal with the shipping of troops onto the boats and they were prancing around with their revolvers hanging round their neck. There was a- This lasted for about three or four hours and they decided, the Air Ministry in their wisdom (and I do say wisdom) decided- So they sent us back on the train again to a place called- I can’t think of the name of it- In, not very far, about twenty miles away in Lancashire and they kept us there for a fortnight while the people, carpenters, you know, various people, sorted out the mess. The boat was left to be expected, to sail around the world in, sort of thing, and eventually we, we were housed- Next time we were marshalled up, and we were- I think there were soldiers there, so making sure that we didn’t start running. Now go up the gangplank, went up the gangplank, we’d been to- No Hednesford, was it Macclesfield, anyway we’ll say it was Macclesfield, it doesn’t matter the name of the place. We were there a fortnight, and the air force law was tramped down to us, what we should’ve done, it was, it was, you know, to mutiny- It was a mutinous act and all that, without, you know, despite what the circumstances were. I mean it was a non-starter right from the go of it, the- Anyway, when we went back the second time, we were made certain we went up the gangplank, and the gangplank was pulled up very quickly and it parked out about three-hundred yards off the shore, so we couldn’t get back, and this was in first week in January- First week of February, I think. But before the Captain of the boat had orders to move off and join the convoy the other side of- We went over the top of Ireland into the Atlantic, North Atlantic. When the Captain of the- I mean a small sort of powered lighter / launcher came on with an MP, the local MP, and a Minister of Health or something like that to see it was fit for us to go, and he must’ve said ‘Yes,’ and off we went. Anyway, we got clear and went to the high seas on the North Atlantic, cold, windy, wet, oh miserable it was. I can always remember it, and there were four ships there, four troop ships waiting to go, ranked on the horizon by three or four capital naval ships, HMS- I forget- Three- Two of them were dreadnought and other one was cruisers, you know, that sort of thing, and they- And once we got away from the shore every day the controller of the naval boats would indicate to the Captain of each troop ship where we had to sail, how we had to- And we were sailing, one day we were going east, one day we were going west, it was like a [unclear]. They knew where the submarines were, they knew where the activity of the U-boats were, especially at night, and it took us fifteen days to get from Liverpool to Sierra Leone, Freetown in Sierra Leone. It’s not called Sierra Leone now is it, what’s it called now?
CB: It is called Sierra Leone.
BY: Is it?
CB: Yeah, yeah.
BY: And, and during that time we were- We all slept in hammocks, shoulder to shoulder, [unclear] you know, and of course when the boat rolled, you were- You can, well I don’t need to explain, you can imagine can’t you? People close to- head high. And that’s how we carried on. But as soon as we- And we weren’t allowed ashore, I suppose they thought, ‘This is a [unclear] lot, we’re not gonna let these people get ashore,’ they- We were anchored off about half-a-mile away from shore at Freetown, and- While some sort of, operation or conference carried on, we don’t know what, but what we do know is what we saw, was little boats coming out, young lads about fifteen or sixteen kind of boys, local boys- Boats were full of oranges, lemons, bananas, grapes and- What their technique was, you see, they came up to the boat, they were allowed to come up to the boat and they had, they had another basket which they would attach to a rope, they’d fling the basket up to somebody leaning over the taffrail, catch onto it, put their money in, sixpence or a shilling, and what you got for a shilling was amazing, sort of thing, and then you’d send the empty basket down carefully, with the money in, and then they would put the goods in it, up it’d come again and- And that carried on for best part of a couple of days. So we were getting stuff from these people unofficially, but we were happy to pay for it. I think, I think the most you paid was a shilling or half a crown or- I think some people who had money- But that was the end of- But then we carried on then, it was all peaceful then to go down to the Cape, there were massive boats, there was bunting flying off the ships all- There was no restriction of the- You weren’t allowed to smoke in the North Atlantic in the first fifteen days, I think it was a little bit more then fifteen- It was fifteen days we didn’t see land, and through the zig-zagging sort of direction which we came from to avoid the enemy, and at night you see we used to hear the depth charges going.
CB: Oh did you?
BY: Yeah, every night there were depth charges and submarine gunning for, you know, all that sort of thing, and fortunately we were lucky but a boat before us, in- Was sunk down and about thee-hundred went down, you know, you didn’t hear much about it, well the public didn’t know much about it. But- And the waves were cold, and the waves and the boats were going up like that, you see pictures of it now but- They were up to twenty feet sometimes-
CB: Were they really? Yeah.
BY: You know and-
CB: Not comfortable.
BY: That wasn’t comfortable that, but I think most of us were frightened, we were really frightened because we were there- We were defenceless, we didn’t have any armours, arms, we were just on that boat, and we had the handicap of what was flung at us by the, by the German naval people. But-
CB: So what did you do all day on the ship?
BY: Well we had- There was lots of little, all the- They made certain that we- There was quite a few people and the cookhouse was on a wire cage on the deck, open deck. This is hard to believe, you wouldn’t think- but- and I might be able to show you some of the information on- And then there was guards for spotting periscopes, or spotting any enemy ship which might’ve drifted into that way or any happening on the [unclear], on conditions of weather and if there was a- So we were occupied by doing sort of duties all the time, not all the time because there was a lot of- We could sit down in the mess decks down under and play cards or play games or draughts or whatever, chess or whatever. We passed the time away like that, and then eventually we got to Durban and we were allowed ashore there. We were there for a week, so we could leave the boat from twelve o’ clock mid-day to twelve o’ clock in the morning, to twelve o’clock at night, have to go back to the ship, back to our hammocks and all that sort of thing. But, in the meantime there was a scheme in Durban, and I think this applied to a lot of the South African sides, course the apartheid was very strong at that time, very much strong, and these English people or, we’ll call them white South African, they sort of encouraged- And I was going along with two fellows, two RAF fellows and two army chaps and they said, ‘Can we take you somewhere to give you a meal?’ and oh, you know, yes we could see there was some, you know- No, no restrictions there so were went with them, then we went to their house for the day, for the evening and they took us back to the boat at night and that sort of scheme, and that carried on for about five or six days, and they contacted to our parents, they wrote to our parents as civilians-to-civilians. So our parents knew roughly that we were all right as far as Durban was concerned, and then it was all back up through the Mozambique Channel, to the Suez Canal and we alighted at Port Suez, and then all stand- Hang around there for days and days, we didn’t get any money for a while, you know how it is. Everything was done alphabetically, and I was a ‘Y’ so I had to wait for my money till the second day or something, something like that, and then eventually it all- They already- There was some former thingy gone on, they had some workshops built there, they didn’t have the equipment all together or they, they- Some other boats must’ve brought in- But we had machine tools and things, and very soon after about a fortnight, three weeks, we started servicing Allison engines, twelve cylinder American engines which were fitted to-
CB: To Kittyhawk's?
BY: Kittyhawk's, Tomahawks. Tomahawks were the first one, then the Kittyhawk's, and also there were three sections, there was the Allison section which was the inline section, there was the Cyclone section which was a radial and the Pratt & Whitney section was also, Pratt & Whitney. So these three sorts of lines working at top speed, twelve-hour shifts to service them. A lot of them were coming in, in packages- The Americans sent them over to Takoradi somehow and they used to come through Deversoir back to where we were in Kasfareet just couple of miles outside the Suez Canal so, and there was plenty of workers, plenty of things to assemble and fit, and they all had to be tested as well so. Some were assembled by- If an aircraft came in with an engine to be changed, well the engine would be taken out and a new one would be put in and that sort of thing, and- So there was plenty of activity there, and this activity went on at the height of the war in the desert war, and they had several sort of Commander-in-Chief, who weren’t very good until Montgomery came along, he sorted all that out. He was a queer man really, I mean he would- He lived by himself in a tent with his batman and didn’t associate with anyone else but he was, he was a very keen operator, he knew and- Nearest we get to- Got to the line was about ten miles away at [unclear], they came down to us. So, it could’ve been a, a nasty episode and then that carried on, carried on and things got easier, lots of activity in the desert, sometimes some of us had to go into the desert to do a job and back again sort of thing, and then eventually we, we landed, or we’d driven by truck in a convoy of about hundred vehicles along to coast road of North Africa to Tripoli. Now a lot of people say there’s only- There’s two Tripoli’s, there’s Tripoli in Palestine or that part of the world, there’s another Tripoli in North Africa, and we went to the one in North Africa, which was quite well equipped because Mussolini spent a lot of time and he, his- He had some good thing about him, Mussolini, he colonised a lot of North Africa and he got work for the tribesman there and he got their, he got their side [unclear]- Anyway, it come to the point- It was three factories there, there was a Alfa Romeo factory, there was a- What was the other one? Well-known name, car factory, and we took over one of the car factories, and that was well equipped with everything we wanted and then we eventually transferred to Centaurus engines assembly centre- Which we then had cooperation with Bomber Command because they were flying and a lot of our work was down to 87 Squadron, I think it was, Beaufighters. You know, we- And then I was there a little while and then they flew us back again to Naples, and then come across again in a troop ship, another open ship over there, or a smaller ship and we carried on and then by that time, the British Army had conquered North Africa and then we’re talking about now 1942, ‘43 sort of thing, and then they moved across to Naples then, basically, and we settled in Naples and we did the same work there in Naples and- I was there at Naples for about eighteen months doing the same sort of work, you know, and- Enjoyed life ‘cause it was a bit easier and we had, we had better sort of living conditions in Italy, and I stayed there till Easter ‘45. So, I left my mother and father at the 1st of January 1941, and I never saw them again, I never spoke to them again till Easter ‘45. That’s a long time, now if you were married, you only stayed three years but I stayed four years and- Four years plus, and of course I should’ve come home on a bit- I got injured playing sport sort of thing, so I had to take- It was one troop used to go back in the 1940s to England every year, every month see, one troop out a month, so I had to stay back another month, not that I worried really ‘cause I was quite happy there and I had a nice little house, room overlooking the bay of Naples and could see Sorrento in- Sorrento were in far away and Capri were in high- You could see- It was a wonderful place to stay, so these are the plus sides of things, you know.
CB: How much work did you get done?
BY: Oh a lot of work, we had to work hard there. I mean ‘cause of continuous work coming in from the western desert-
CB: Is this damage, or servicing?
BY: Oh yes, damage some damage and some, quite ridiculous. I remember one case an aircraft was flown in, and the people that dealt it did very well, it was a piece of shrapnel, or bullet or something, gone through one side of the, one of the cylinders, and it went right through outside and out the other side and some clever fellow, he sort of made the two holes, rounded them either side, he poked a piece of tube in right the way through and then he drove two wooden spits into either side, and that aircraft flew back.
CB: Did it really?
BY: Yeah, it’s amazing that, I mean the pilot took a chance but he succeeded because the circulation of fluid in the twelve engines. But they were they were cheaper and easier to assemble then the Rolls Royce were, they weren’t so complicated. But- Where do we go from here?
CB: Right, so how long did you stay out there? So, we’re talking about getting into Naples then the Italian surrender-
BY: I got into Naples on October ’43, and I stayed there to Easter ’45, and we stayed in a vacated- What do they call them? Where people go mad. An asylum, it was quite a big hospital and we turned that into a proper workshop, where we could service aircraft and send them out, and all that sort of thing, any small items had to be done and- I think spares were the problem ‘cause they had to come from the UK. But they eventually did get because-
CB: Which of the aircraft-
BY: At that time, I think just about- I’m not quite certain what the date was when it- When the Mediterranean was cleared for English shipping to come through. I think it was ’44, I think. Or would it be, sometime when they were- When the invasion of Europe was, sometime-
CB: Well, they invaded Southern France after D-Day, so that meant that the Mediterranean was reasonably-
BY: I’m not certain about those facts Chris, but-
CB: What aircraft are you servicing now?
BY: For Beaufighters.
CB: Right, still Beaufighters.
BY: Yep, Beaufighters. They were the main things, ‘cause we were in sections so all our work was done- I was working on Allisons all the time see.
CB: And are these Coastal Command by now or are they Bomber Command- Middle East Air Force?
BY: They were Bomber Command, they were Bomber Command, well-
CB: Middle East Air Force?
BY: I’m not certain about that ‘cause they policed the Mediterranean for a long time.
CB: Were they rocket firing or, were they bomb dropping?
BY: They were bomb dropping and rocket firing yeah, but some of the, some of the very well-known pilots were killed in that, in that place because when the Mediterranean came under the control of the allies, parts of southern, the southern side of that below Israelia, Heliopolis[?] and all these places were still sort of under the jurisdiction of the Germans really, but that was soon cleared up and-
CB: The Vichy French?
BY: Yeah, that’s right yeah. But eventually it sorted itself out and-
CB: But in Italy, you were in the Naples area, but how far north did you go from Naples?
BY: Not very far.
CB: Right, and then where did you go from Naples?
BY: Naples, I went back to North Africa for a while, when the Centaurus came in because a team of Bristol aeroplane specialists came over to give us indication of the servicing, the stripping and the, you know, general of the Centaurus, which was a sleeve valve engine, and-
CB: Though, retro fitted to the Beaufighters were they?
BY: I don’t know are they? Yes, I think there were and I don’t know what other aircraft the fitted to, Buccaneers or something like that.
CB: No, no that’s a post-war-
BY: But while we were at sea coming or going out or- We would often see these pre-war, sort of aircraft flying around, you know. It’s quite amazing.
CB: So then, when did you return to the UK?
BY: As I said, April, Easter ‘45. I then went there to St Eval in Cornwall and 179 Squadron and they had, what’s the name- But their job was- And as we were at St Eval, war ended, European war ended.
CB: Ok.
BY: And the job was for- Our job was to go to every, every- The Atlantic or any of the waterways and direct the, any German vessels or whatever to enter English ports, and that was our job and, I was only there about two months and then, I was posted to Accrington in North of England, Northumberland on 213 Squadron then we went- That was a night fighter squadron, then- From then on my last four years in the Air Force was in night fighters, and that was-
CB: Were these nights fighter or were they interdictors who went in the bomber stream?
BY: They were all Mosquitos, latterly we had the Jet Age came in just as I was leaving, and that was an Armstrong Whitley fighter. You don’t hear much of ‘em but that’s what we had first of all, I’ve got a picture of them somewhere but-
Other: A jet plane?
BY: Hm?
Other: A jet plane?
BY: Oh yes.
CB: I’ll just stop there a bit.
BY: -14 Squadron-
CB: Which was at Accrington was it?
BY: No, no, this is at Coltishall.
CB: Oh Coltishall, ok.
BY: Which is now closed, near Norwich.
CB: Yep.
BY: I had a call to go the officers mess, and when I got there, it was the Squadron Leader there, a VR, volunteer reserve on- He’d come to visit the CO, it was a- Well they were doing a sort of volunteer’s activity on the weekends in those days, and I- And he called me and he said to me, he said, ‘I understand you’re,’ this is what he said to me, ‘I understand you’re leaving the Air Force in the next month or so.’ I said, ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘I’m now married and I want to raise a family and I feel that if I raise a family in, you know, civilian life it might be more advantageous.’ Anyway, I said, ‘My wife is a school-teacher in Bristol and, good school and, I don’t want to upset her sort of way of life’. ‘Oh that’s fair enough,’ he said, he said and he said, any-rate, he asked me a few questions then he said, ‘I you like-,’ he gave me a card, he said, ‘You come and see so and so on such and such a date, we’ll find something for you,’ so I said, ‘Oh what have you got in mind?’ ‘Oh,” he said, ‘We’re building up our sales unit.’ So I said to him straight away, ‘Well I don’t want to go on selling things,’ I said, ‘That’s not me,’ I said, ‘I’d rather, I joined the Air Force to learn about mechanics and sort of how to use my hands and how to use machine tools and, all the other things that go with that sort of life.’
CB: Yeah.
BY: So he said, ‘Well I tell you what,’ he said, ‘If you were still wanting to carry on and be turner, or slotter or,’ you know, all these sorts of things, he said, ‘We’re starting a small shop.’ And there was seven of us, not a very big shop it was, but we were there on our own, just the seven of us and we had quite a few machine tools in there, everything from presses to sort of, everything which was needed to do anything in the engineering, more or less, on a small scale [unclear], and, ‘Would you like to join that?’ I said, ‘Well that sounds, that sounds more my line.’ So I started there, I stayed there with them till I retired. But the beautiful thing about- Everyday- Now what we were doing, basically, the technicians in those days, I mean, in the drawing office, people were drawing, they were tracing and all that sort of- Well nowadays they don’t do that at all it’s all done electronic as you well know. What they were doing, the drawers would come to us with an idea to make something, to design something ‘cause this is unguided weapons ‘cause there was a lot of hard work in the early days of weapons to make certain everything was, you know, spot on and weight and all that sort of thing. So we used to get [unclear] of drawings come in to do that, some on ordinary paper, some on blueprints, mostly in blueprints and then you would, you know, study them, or and that was it. Some jobs would take a day, some days two days, sometimes a fortnight sort of thing, and every job was different, and some of this work it was the pre, what’s the word, before something goes into designing?
Other: Prototype?
BY: Hm?
Other: Prototype?
BY: Prototype, that’s the name. Before the prototype, we were getting everything before the prototype. Now in that case it was a lot of, well that’s not what we want or, that didn’t sort of suit us or that didn’t work out when it was tested, and we had a big cellar underneath and we’d just drop it underneath and wait for the next idea to come from them. So it was- I stayed with them because I found it interesting.
CB: What was the company?
BY: Bristol Air, Guided Weapons Department, and I stayed doing that, people say, ’Well you should’ve gone, you should apply for this and apply for that and gone or.’ I’m a believer in job satisfaction rather than job achievement, maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm wrong, but here I am.
CB: Didn’t do you any harm did it?
BY: No.
CB: And you enjoyed the work?
BY: I enjoyed the work and I found it interesting.
CB: And you rose up in the-
BY: Well, I mean, I mean, your ability, and what is more you see, people are always coming down to us and saying, ‘Something’s wrong with my motorbike, I want a new bush or something,’ you know, and we would turn out a new bush for him or that sort of thing and he would give us half a crown or whatever. You know, I miss all that, and to make things for myself you know, odd times but my- But really and truly, all the time I was with them I was occupied all the day long.
CB: And you enjoyed it?
BY: Yeah.
CB: Now you’ve got three children, where did you meet your wife?
BY: I met my wife, first of all, her father’s a farmer and mother- She’s the youngest of seven children so, how can I put it? She was- She used to come home from Bristol to a place called Othery, which is not very far away, near Langport, you’ve heard of Langport, near Langport, to the farm, and help her mother every Friday or Saturday. She’d come round Friday evening and stay to Sunday night, go back to school on Monday morning, and at the same time I was at Locking, on this one year's course, fitter one's course.
CB: Yep, Weston-Super-Mare
BY: And we used to go up by train, she went back by train and we met on the station, I happened- In the old days the corridor trains, you know, you sort of meet and talk to people and- I used to see her several Sunday nights and then I wrote to her, she wrote to me I don’t quite know and it all started from there, and we got married this was 1948 sometime, ‘cause that was the year I was at Locking and then 1949 September we were married, and she was still teaching and then we bought this house, how much do you think I gave for this house?
CB: When?
BY: 19- I was what? 19- In 1951, I was thirty, it must’ve been about 1956 I bought it.
CB: Crikey
BY: 1956.
CB: Well less than-
Other: Thousand?
BY: Hmm?
Other: Thousand?
BY: Two-thousand- No.
CB: Was it?
BY: I bought it for two-thousand-and-fifty, it’s now worth-
CB: A bit more?
BY: A bit more, a lot more.
CB: Yeah, what do you reckon it’s worth now?
BY: Well, the house next door is empty, my neighbour next door she died not very long ago, couple of months ago and she’d lived there for sixty years.
CB: Gosh.
BY: And her house sold I think for three-eighty, three-hundred-and-eighty-thousand.
Other: [Chuckles]
CB: Amazing.
BY: I mean it’s ridiculous really.
CB: Yeah.
BY: And maybe I shouldn’t tell you this, but I'll tell you this. I came out of the Air Force with a thousand quid in my pocket. My wife, I used to send to my wife my Marriage Allowance ‘cause I was married for eighteen months. So she had about over a thousand. I was about five-hundred pounds short for buying the house so I went to the bank manager and he lent it to me and about three months we cleared our loan, I never had a mortgage on this house other than-
CB: Amazing.
BY: And I, you know, I think of my young boys there- Two of them living in London, well you know what it’s like.
CB: Yeah,
BY: It’s frightening
CB: Absolutely, nothing for a million.
BY: Nothing at all, and I tell them what they’re going to do I think, ‘cause one, John, that’s the one that his wife, or his partner really, she’s an Executive, she’s a bright girl, she’s in the Save The Children organisation. Good job with them earning good money, I don’t know what she’s earning but they’re thinking about- At the present moment they’re living in London and paying rent and I said to them, you know, ‘It’s better to buy somewhere, and pay your mortgage, because you have got something at the end of it, whereas you paying rent is just money down the drain’.
CB: That’s right, yeah.
BY: And John is working in London, he works for England’s Rugby Union
CB: Oh, does he?
BY: That’s John, so they’re all- But they’ve all got jobs and they’re coping alright and David’s retired but he’s got his own business he goes, ‘course he was well known in a lot of the people in London, reporters and the Editor of the Financial Times quite well, you know, ‘cause he was a spokesman for Engineer Employers Federation-
CB: Oh yeah, got around a bit.
BY: And he said to me, when he found out David retired ‘cause David he’s got MS as well.
CB: Yes, nasty.
BY: Doesn’t walk very well, and this chap said, you know, he said ‘You want to start a business on your own, just going round chairing meetings’ and that’s what he does.
CB: Oh does he really?
BY: He chairs meetings, goes round- So he must be good at it.
CB: Yeah, how intriguing.
BY: You gotta be firm when you’re a Chairman, not let them, let the sort of syllabus wander on and wander on, you’ll be there all night otherwise, but that’s what he’s doing now, and he does- He’s his own boss he can go when he likes and he lives in, in Southampton, goes up to London quite frequently and most of these businesses down in London ‘cause he said to me, ‘I know more people in London then I do in Southhampton,’ but-
CB: We’ve covered a lot of things and early one you mentioned a passion for rugby? So what’s happened to your rugby life?
BY: Well, my rugby life, first of all started off learning- I come from a rugby village but, and I played quite a bit in the services, I was always in the station team and then I played in that- I tell you what, I’ve got a cap in there with a tassel on it, because there was a competition between the eight Commands; Fighter, Bomber, Tech Training, Flying Training, [unclear], what’s the [unclear].
CB: And Coastal?
BY: Coastal Command, it was quite- And they all have got a big command, there were a lot of men in the Air Force in those days in- This is 19- 1942 I think- No, no 1950 something and, so I- We had- They saw I was capable so they selected me out from Coltishall and I went with others and we assembled at Uxbridge as a Command side, and we played this competition against all the other Commands and we won it outright you see, and we had a hell of a time when we won ‘cause we were invited to Bentley Priory, and had a big- I think there was about, eight or nine officers and there was one All-Black was a player, there was one current in National playing in the side- So there, you know- They all knew what it’s all about sort of thing and we had a wonderful time and I’ve got a few photographs, you’ve seen one or two there and I’ve got a cap, they sent me a cap with the excuse, ‘We’re short of money, normally our caps are made of velvet but I’m sorry,’ but they got it printed on there, I’ll show you in a minute before you go.
CB: So when-
BY: And in between I played for Bridgewater and Albion, and I’ve played for Weston-Super-Mare, I’ve played for Devonport Services, I guested for Norwich and Lowestoft when I was over at Coltishall and so, you know, I’ve been around a little bit. Fortunately, I’m still here Chris, to tell the tale.
CB: Really good, yeah. Well Bert Yeandle, thank you very much for a most interesting conversation-
BY: Well I hope I’ve been- I hope it makes sense for your-
CB: I think it will fit really well, thank you.
BY: Do you? Really?
CB: We do, absolutely, thank you.
BY: Mostly-
CB: Your engines?
BY: Well the first engine I worked was a trainee engine, was a Morris Motors car, yep, that was in training, but then we came out I worked on Centaur, Pegasus, Merlins, Griffins, what’s the other ones?
CB: Derwent?
BY: Derwent, yes.
CB: Jet?
BY: I’m not very, I haven’t seen a lot of Jet engines because when I came out of the Air Force, I went into guided weapons you see, so that was the slight-
CB: So you were really a rockets man as well?
BY: Yeah.
Other: In terms of beauty, which would you say was the most beautiful engine you’ve worked on?
BY: Oh, the Rolls Royce, no doubt about it. It’s the most efficient, yeah, and I’ve worked- A lot of aircraft I’ve worked on, all sort of aircraft you know, Spitfires and Hurricanes, a little bit of Hurricanes, and Mosquitos are the aircraft I spent a lot of time on, and Wellingtons early on. They were not very good, you know, Wellingtons. Well in hindsight they’re not very- They were at the time, I mean, industry moves on, technicians move on and development moves on but I mean, an awful lot of aircraft that were built that were rubbish really and now when you compare with what there is at the latter part of the prop jets. See I came over, I flew over from Belfast to East Midlands just now, came over on a prop jet.
CB: Oh, did you?
BY: Hundred people on it, so they still use them, not that I- Fleebye-
CB: Flybe.
BY: Flybe, but I like to fly with [unclear] the one, yeah. Well-
CB: Thank you.
BY: I should’ve liked to of given you a cooked meal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bertram Arthur Yeandle
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:53:57 Audio Recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AYeandleBA181229
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Italy
Libya
North Africa
Egypt--Suez Canal
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Norfolk
England--Somerset
England--Oxford
England--Shropshire
Italy--Naples
Libya--Tripoli
England--Oxfordshire
Description
An account of the resource
After leaving school, Bertram Yeandle joined the RAF apprentice scheme and trained as an engine fitter at RAF Halton. After completing his apprenticeship at RAF Cosford, he was posted to 148 Squadron, RAF Harwell, where he serviced Wellingtons. In January 1941, Yeandle was posted overseas. He describes his journey via Sierra Leone and Durban and servicing Allison engines near the Suez Canal. He then travelled to Tripoli, North Africa, where he serviced Centaurus engines for Beaufighters. In 1943, he was posted to Naples, Italy, and service aircraft there until Easter 1945. Finally, Yeandle describes his post-war life, including meeting his wife, competing in an RAF rugby competition, and working in weapon development after leaving the air force.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Jean Massie
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
148 Squadron
Anson
Beaufighter
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
hangar
Oxford
RAF Coltishall
RAF Cosford
RAF Halton
RAF Harwell
RAF Locking
RAF St Eval
sport
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1516/26385/ARogersG160613.2.mp3
966857e655fcb17907cf8c6805b09cc2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rogers, George
G Rogers
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Rogers, G
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Rogers (b. 1914, 565679 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: Right, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever the case may be. This interview is being filmed for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m interviewing Mr George Rogers.
GR: Just a little louder.
TO: Okay. Also in the room with us is Nina Bruce and my name’s Thomas Ozel and we’re recording this interview on the 13th of June 2016. Mr Rogers what year were you born in?
GR: 1914, yeah.
TO: And whereabouts were you born?
GR: I was born in a little village called Oxon, in, near Banbury.
TO: And were your parents in the First World War?
GR: Erm, not directly involved, cause my father was in what would have been called today a reserved occupation. He was actually a farmer his job, but he turned into a butcher for the, during the war which was 1913, wasn’t it.
TO: And do you remember hearing the celebrations when the First World War ended?
GR: No, I don’t remember much about that, because at that time I would only have been thirteen or fourteen years old, or even less.
TO: And what was your first job?
GR: My first job was in the RAF, as an aircraft mechanic, putting right aircraft that had gone wrong!
TO: And were you interested in aircraft when you were young?
GR: I was a little bit, yes, because in the village where we lived, an aeroplane landed, which was quite unusual, and my sisters took me to see this. So that was the very first thing they got into trouble over, I was too young for them to bother.
TO: And did you collect model aeroplanes?
GR: I did once or twice. I had a go at making model aircraft, yeah.
TO: When you were growing up did you remember hearing about Hitler in Europe?
GR: When you say growing up, what age are you talking about?
TO: Late teens onwards.
GR: I mean I may have heard a bit about it, not much though. In those days it was, not, people weren’t too interested in the rest of Europe as they are today.
TO: Did you go to the cinema much?
GR: Did I what?
TO: Go to the cinema, very much?
GR: I went to the cinema, yeah, but I only saw about two films as far as I can remember, and I can’t remember those now.
TO: And do you remember when Chamberlain went to Munich?
GR: Yes. I remember that fairly well. Came back and thought, I don’t know what he thought really because, it was, I think he tried to give the impression there would be no war, when he came back. I don’t know, I forget from history whether he actually met Hitler. I don’t think he did. I think he met a lot of German generals.
TO: Do you think he made the right decision?
GR: Did he [emphasis] make the right? Yeah. The decision you were, was it his decision to go, or -
TO: His decision to let Germany have part of Czechoslovakia.
GR: Sorry, you have to be a bit louder.
TO: It was Chamberlain’s idea to go to Munich and appease Hitler. What do you think of his decision?
GR: I don’t really know, well honestly I don’t know. I, it was all, in my working life I could say, when Chamberlain went there, and we did notice a little bit that the forces were increasing, and aircraft were being built and used much more extensively.
TO: And when did you join the RAF?
GR: When? I joined the RAF when I was sixteen years old. Add that on to 1914 and you’ll get it there. But that’s, I can’t remember the exact date when I joined.
TO: Would it be in 1930?
GR: Somewhere about that, yes. Now you’ve said it was, round about 1930.
TO: What attracted you to the RAF?
GR: What attracted me? Well, I would probably say two things. Number one, we lived out in the country with no work for people and so it was, to my mind, I can remember even now, it was a way of getting a permanent job and the other reason was well, after seeing an aeroplane I was curious about it.
TO: Do you remember what the first aircraft was that you worked on?
GR: The first one I worked on was a Tiger Moth, little aircraft. And it crashed! Unfortunately, but that wasn’t my fault. Hah!
TO: Was anyone injured in the crash?
GR: No. Not in that [emphasis] crash, nobody was injured.
TO: And when, do you remember if people in the RAF thought that war was coming?
GR: I don’t think anybody really thought a war would come. No, I don’t think we thought that there was going to be a war, no.
TO: Do you remember when modern aircraft like the Hurricanes and Spitfires first came in?
GR: Well it was after I’d been in the service about couple of years I knew about the Spitfire and the Hurricane.
TO: And can you tell me about what tests you were given when you joined the RAF?
GR: What tests? Well written tests of a lot of, what we called in our day I suppose, physics. Maths too, when I think about it, maths and physics.
TO: And what would be your routine for a day at an airfield?
GR: What would be?
TO: Your routine.
GR: Routine. In, at that time, well when we got, cause there were paths, I say paths, there were three hundred of us boys all in a place called Halton. RAF, and we were roused by Reveille and after breakfast there would be marching and then from then we would go to the school, either the academic school or an engineering school.
TO: How old were the people you were working with?
GR: They were all about my age. About twenty one or two.
TO: And what were your duties as a mechanic?
GR: What were my duty? To put right what were gone wrong! And repair anything that was, needed repairing because we’d been taught in the metal work and so I was able to make things.
TO: Did you work with anyone who had been in the First World War?
GR: No, not that I remember.
TO: When, were you surprised when war started in 1939?
GR: You know, not really, I wasn’t. I hated the idea, but I could, the way everything was preparing for it, it was it.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for war?
GRL: Yeah. The building up of the forces was, I thought was the main thing and more of our boys as I was there, were being trained as pilots.
TO: And were the, were you getting new aircraft as well?
GR: Yes, there was some new aircraft. I was [cough] I mean were mostly training aircraft at that time and the only ones I can remember of course was the Tiger, Tiger Moth which I said, and later on one called the Lysander.
TO: Were they good aircraft?
GR: Yes, they were good aircraft in their day, I mean what constitutes a good aircraft? [Laugh]
TO: I suppose one that’s reliable.
GR: Yes. I don’t think that the general public thought we were very reliable at first, but after a while they got used to the idea.
TO: How did the public treat you before the war?
GR: They were very silent about it, nobody spoke much about it at all. I don’t know whether the general public ever thought, really, that we should have a war. They may have done.
TO: Do you think Britain could have been better prepared for the war?
GR: Sorry?
TO: Could Britain have made more preparations for the war?
GR: [Cough] Yes, I think they could have done, but I suppose after the First World War nobody wanted a war again and they didn’t want to think about it.
TO: Did you have any relatives in the armed forces?
GR: Did I?
TO: Any relatives, in the armed forces?
GR: Do you know, I don’t think I had one, not one relative, well until my, the war started then my two brothers were both called up into the Army. But my other brother, my elder brother, he was in Canada, way up, but it was just my two brothers and they both got called up in the Army.
TO: And do you actually remember the day that Chamberlain announced that war had started?
GR: No. I don’t, I could visualise it, and say it was, that was the day I remember, but no, I didn’t really remember the day we went to war.
TO: Was there a fear of bombing when war started?
GR: Was there?
TO: A fear of German bombers?
GR: During my time? Oh yes. There was bombing all over the country for that matter, mostly in the south I suppose, cause I was in London at one period of time doing a course and we were bombed all night.
TO: Were people, but before the war, were people afraid of bombing then?
GR: I don’t know, I really don’t know. I think they probably were.
TO: And how did you actually feel when the war started?
GR: I felt, upset’s not the word, I can’t think of the correct word to say, but I didn’t like it. Didn’t like the idea at all.
TO: And do you remember the rationing?
GR: The what?
TO: The rationing, the rationing of food?
GR: Sorry.
TO: Do you remember when food started being rationed?
GR: Sorry, I still can’t hear.
TO: When food was being rationed. Do you remember?
GR: Oh yes. I can’t remember the date when it started but I remember it very well when we were having it.
TO: Could you describe how the food changed?
GR: How the system worked? Everyone had a rationing book. And in that book was sort of a butcher’s page, a grocery page and you were allowed so many points, for a joint of beef say, or sausages or something and they’d, it was the butcher or grocer who had cross them off and it worked I suppose more on weekly basis.
TO: You mentioned that you were at a place called RAF Halton.
GR: Yes.
TO: What were your, do you, was there anything that happened there stick in your mind at all?
GR: It was mostly training. We were either in the workshops learning to do doing metalwork, or were in the school learning the academic side. In between there was a lot of marching and military training, with rifles if I remember rightly.
TO: Could you describe this training?
GR: Did?
TO: Describe this training, please.
GR: Describe?
TO: What you did during this training?
GR: During that time. You just get up in the morning, you do your march, your meals and marching. You’d go to the probably go to the workshops and you’d spend, yes, practically the whole day. There were, we had instructors there who taught us how to deal with certain situations like how to use the lathe, or, I used major instruments too.
TO: And did they have good teachers?
GR: Did they have?
TO: Good teachers. Good teachers. Did they have?
GR: Procedures?
TO: Teachers.
GR: Sorry.
TO: Did they have good teachers?
GR: Oh! Teachers, yes. I think we got the impression they were more or less men who’d been in the job for some time and then the RAF employed them as tutors and teachers for us boys. I should think that was about it. I can remember vaguely the appearance of one or two of them.
TO: Do you remember hearing when France was defeated?
GR: When?
TO: France was defeated, in 1940?
GR: No I didn’t, not really. I seem to remember, Churchill I think it was, saying we are now on our own, after France had gone. I mean, think France more or less split up, didn’t it, and one section joined up with the Germans in effect, and the other sections fought against them in any way they could!
TO: And after France was defeated, were people worried that Hitler would invade?
GR: Were people what?
TO: Worried that Hitler would invade?
GR: I don’t know, I think they may have been.
TO: And were you worried about an invasion?
GR: I was?
TO: Were you worried, yourself? Were you worried about an invasion?
GR: No, I wasn’t really. Coming to the period when the RAF shot down so many aeroplanes in one day and we began to think we will win this war anyway.
TO: Where were you stationed during the Battle of Britain?
GR: I don’t remember if I, by that time I’d got to India, I think I probably had, because I left England in the very early part. We went across to South America, and from South America went to South Africa, up to Egypt, from Egypt to Ceylon, called Sri Lanka now, and from Sri Lanka into Southern, Southern India. Now the reason I went all that way round, was because we were supposed to, I only learned this later, supposed to be a decoy for the Germans where they thought we would invade – that’s what we were told, anyway. But of course all that time I’d been, I call it shanghaied into the Navy! Hah! T’isn’t probably the right word but still, that’s what it appeared to me to be like. I do remember the one dread, in the early days of the war was I never wanted to go to India and I never wanted to fight. That’s about the way I see it. It’s a job to talk about things like that, which, what, 1929 was it, when war broke out?
TO: It was in September, 1939 when war broke out.
GR: ’39, yeah. Yes it was September, that I do remember.
TO: So, you mentioned that you’d been shanghaied into the Navy. How did that happen?
GR: Well at that time I was a member of the RAF, they just transferred me into the, to live with the Navy and what we really went for was to teach the Navy something about our aircraft, or any aircraft for that matter at that early stage the Navy didn’t have many aircraft, if the main, or in fact only a very few.
TO: So did you, so were you in Britain when the bombing started, or had you left by then?
GR: I’d gone! I read about it, in, I’d say the letters from my wife but then they were all censored, she wasn’t allowed to and I wasn’t allowed to send her letters except having them, everything was censored.
TO: When you were going to India on the ship, was there a fear of u-boat attacks?
GR: Was there a period?
TO: A fear of u-boat attacks?
GR: I never feared it, but it could happen. No, I don’t think we did fear it, but it had happened, and it did happen.
TO: Can you remember the conditions on the ships you were on?
GR: Well, we were more fortunate in the fact that we, there were eight of us all of the same rank, lived in a, what had been a first class cabin and we had to join the rest for meals and everything, but we lived fairly comfortably all that time we were going round as I told you.
TO: So were you on a passenger ship?
GR: A passenger. Yes.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill’s decision to order the bombing of Germany?
GR: Sorry.
TO: What did you think of, what did you think when the RAF were ordered to bomb Germany?
GR: We didn’t think too much about it. In fact I doubt if we hardly realised it had happened.
TO: So what, do you remember what your, what squadrons you were in?
GR: What?
TO: Squadrons you were in. In the RAF. Which squadrons were you in, in the RAF?
GR: What squadron? I started off in 33, but I left there of course when they as I said, transferred me to the Navy and so I maintained the rank I had there in the Navy, which was, the rank was around about Petty Officer I think, they called them.
TO: And were your duties as a mechanic?
GR: What did I do as a mechanic? What, in the Navy or?
TO: Both, both.
GR: Mostly teaching other mechanics. What faults had happened and what was likely to happen.
TO: What were the main faults that you had to teach them about?
GR: Failure of the engines, I suppose was the main thing, and most of that was due to the ignition system.
TO: Do you have a favourite aircraft of that time?
GR: A favourite?
TO: A favourite aircraft.
GR: No.
TO: Were you worried that Britain would get defeated?
GR: Sorry?
TO: Were you worried that Britain would get defeated?
GR: No. No, I don’t think that thought ever entered our heads.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
GR: The Invasion I suppose, and it took place. The other important battle if you like, was when we were retreated, back from the Germans, and lots of soldiers killed on the beaches at that time.
TO: And had you ever considered joining the Army?
GR: No. No, that was the last thing I thought of. I only joined the RAF because I thought it was technical and I should learn something.
TO: And when you were with the Navy, were you stationed on warships at all?
GR: Was I?
TO: Stationed on warships?
GR: Stationed on warships. No, not on warships because we were all on, they had lots of naval bases and they called them ships, and the ship I spent a lot of time at, on, was down at Lee on Solent and I forgot what they called the ship there, but we spent a lot of time there because it was the [emphasis] base for the Navy I think. Or when I say Navy, I should really say Fleet Air Arm.
TO: How were you treated by the rest of the Fleet Air Arm?
GR: By what?
TO: How were you treated by the Fleet Air Arm?
GR: How was I?
TO: Treated.
GR: Sleeping?
TO: Treated. By the Fleet Air Arm.
GR: Sorry, I’m..
TO: How did the Fleet Air Arm treat you, as a member of the RAF?
GR: Oh they treated us all right, they tried to train us to be sailors if you like [chuckle]. I mean when you went out from the camp, or the ship, you never allowed to go out through the main gate, had to go out a little side gate.
TO: And what kind of entertainment did these ships have?
GR: I don’t know, actually I saw any entertainment at all, at the places I was in, but that’s not to say it didn’t take place, but I cannot recall any place where there was entertainment, except [emphasis] what the soldiers or sailors did themselves.
TO: And what did they do to entertain themselves?
GR: Well they, they did small plays, I suppose that’s the main thing I can remember, taking part in some of the small plays where lots of soldiers, I say lots, some of them, had to become females, if you like.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
GR: I think we admired him; and I think we all admired him in the period he was alive. After I read, later on, I learnt that he was not quite the angel we expected or had appreciated, still, because he got into a lot of trouble in South Africa, but then that was all forgotten. His speeches enthused the country.
TO: Did you listen to his speeches?
GR: No. No, I don’t remember listening to any.
TO: And what was the climate like in Southern India?
GR: The?
TO: The climate, in Southern India.
GR: Well the climate in India was very warm, like it is today. All the time we were there we had very little rain as far as I remember.
TO: Did you have to take medicine to avoid disease?
GR: Did what?
TO: Did you have to take medicine to avoid disease?
GR: Yes, we take some medicine. I’ve forgotten. I think we took tablets of some sort, as against malaria and things like that. I think it depended a bit where you went in the world as to what tablets you took.
TO: And what was your ship like in India?
GR: My ship? It was all on dry land and I can’t remember anything unusual about it. One or two places where there was grass. Ah, but I remember we used to be able to take holidays. And to take holidays you went up in the hills to a place called Ootacamund and that’s where we’d take our, took our holidays. I was lucky in the war really because during all that time I was in India I avoided a lot of the restrictions and rationing that took place. We didn’t have any rationing in India at all.
TO: Did you hear about Japan attacking Pearl Harbor?
GR: No. Not till after the war, we heard about it. Oh, I don’t know, I think we probably did, because I think that was one of the things we hoped would pull America into the war.
TO: Did you hear about Japan conquering Singapore?
GR: Japan’s sovereign.
TO: Conquering Singapore?
GR: No.
TO: Were you worried that Japan might attack India?
GR: What?
TO: Were you worried Japan might attack India?
GR: No. They were too far away and there were other countries bordering India which the Japanese would attack, and they did, with Burma for instance.
TO: When you were in India, did you ever see anyone protesting for independence?
TO: Anybody?
TO: Protesting for Britain to leave?
GR: No, they just accepted us, as we did, but no, wasn’t a lot of English people living in India at that time. I remember one experience I had. I went for a holiday from Utali Command to somewhere up north and on the way back, and while we’re there we stayed in a hotel, we had, we played bridge with a couple of ladies who happened to be there. Now the reason they were all there was their husbands were in North Africa and the next day we had to go back and we went back by bus, and one of these ladies said well you’re coming past my place - call in. So we did. And she was living in her home, her husband was in North Africa. She told us she’d had a baby, the baby died, she had had to bury the baby and deal entirely with all the things that she’d had to deal with, on her own! Funnily enough, at that time, we never worried about wild animals but there were a few jaguars around, so we were told.
TO: And did you ever witness any racism in the forces?
GR: Did I what?
TO: Witness any racism, in the forces?
GR: Any?
TO: Racism.
GR: No. I’m sorry I didn’t get that at all.
TO: Did you ever see any racism?
GR: Racism? No. I didn’t see any racism, not in India, I think because, when we were at the base there we employed a lot if Indians to do a lot of our labour jobs and we always got on all right with them. I don’t know quite how they regarded us.
TO: What did you think of senior Allied leaders?
GR: What?
TO: What did you think of senior Allied leaders?
GR: Sorry.
TO: What did think of Allied leaders like Roosevelt, or Stalin?
GR: I’m sorry. Sorry, this hearing of mine.
TO: What did you think of Allied leaders such as Roosevelt of America.
GR: Allied leaders? I think we thought, were rather proud of them. I think we were, unbelievably but, I don’t know quite what the word is, but, well one German general, he was thought to be quite good. I’ve forgotten what his name is now.
TO: Would that be Rommel?
GR: Yes! It was Rommel, yeah. I think we fought against him in south, in North Africa and that was the, I think that really was the turning point of the war when we recaptured a lot of North Africa, especially the only bit that I knew was called Mersa Matruh. And funnily enough I remember that because the sand was all beautifully white on the beach and everything, where we used to go swimming. The beach was quite white.
TO: What else do you remember about your time in Egypt?
GR: My time in?
TO: Egypt.
GR: It was sort of more or less a daily routine of going to work and we had a number of aeroplanes would come in with problems. One particular problem we had at, that stuck in my memory, was the fact that some big noise was out in the desert in an aeroplane and the propeller got damaged and I was set out, sent out to repair this or do something about it, and when I got there and looked at the thing, I decided to cut one side off the propeller to balance the two legs and we flew back like that.
TO: Do you remember what kind of aircraft that was?
GR: I can’t remember what they’re called, but what we had to deal with mostly there were American aircraft, and I can’t remember what they called them. They had some big bombers which were quite bigger than we had ever dealt with before, but there was also a number of fighter aircraft. So I can’t remember what they’re called. But we had to learn about them.
TO: Some of the American bombers might have been Flying Fortresses.
GR: American bombers what?
TO: Flying, fortresses, is that name familiar? Cause that was a big American bomber. How long were you in India for?
GR: Probably a couple of years. I don’t remember exactly how long, but it was some considerable time. That’s why I was lucky in a way because those two years I was out of the main problems in England.
TO: What did you think of the main RAF leaders?
GR: I never thought much about it, quite honestly. I suppose we considered he was doing a good job and that was it.
TO: What did you think of Arthur Harris?
GR: Of who?
TO: Arthur Harris.
GR: Harris? I’ve never had to try to answer that question ever. Because he was just a man as far as I’m concerned, with a job to do. He did it pretty well I think. I don’t know whether he was one of the generals went down with Churchill and met Stalin later on.
TO: And what about Hugh Dowding?
TO: What?
TO: Hugh Dowding, the, he was the RAF. What about Hugh Dowding? What did you think of him?
GR: He was, well we didn’t think much about him at all. He was just there to do a job and that was it.
TO: So, did you leave India in 1943?
GR: I guess so, I’m not sure. I know we had to travel from Southern India where we were, up to Bombay, and it wasn’t called Bombay now, and we came home by boat from Bombay through the Suez Canal and that way.
TO: Who were you training, when you were India?
GR: Who what?
TO: Who were you training in India. Who did you train in India?
GR: Who did I? I don’t know. I’m not sure I answer that question. I’m not sure what the question was.
TO: Do you know, were they from the Navy, or the Air Force?
GR: Were they what?
TO: Were you training people from the Navy or people from the Air Force, in India?
GR: I think, we supported the Navy; well we had to. We always, I think we always secretly thought we ought to be with the RAF.
TO: So where were you sent after India?
GR: What?
TO: Where were you sent after you were in India?
GR: Where was I?
TO: Sent after India.
GR: Sorry.
TO: You said you came home from India through the Suez Canal. Where were you sent after that?
GR: Where was I sent after that? Oh, I, well I got back to England. They gave us a pretty good holiday and then we were sent up, I was sent up a to a place near Warrington in North London, oh not London, North England I should say, and for the first time I had a little bit of family life.
TO: Was that at RAF Padgate?
GR: I’ve forgotten.
TO: It’s just that there’s a place in Warrington called RAF Padgate.
GR: They had American machines there, I do remember that, and I thought well I can cope with this situation because I’ve done it all in India, with these machines.
TO: What was your job back in Britain then?
GR: What was?
TO: What were you doing when you were in Warrington?
GR: When I was?
TO: Stationed in Warrington.
GR: Repairing aircraft, as far as I can remember. I mean we may have now and again been asked to teach somebody but then mostly we were, spent our time repairing aircraft or not doing much at all really because the war was practically over then. Well it was over as far as Britain was concerned, there was still the war going on in the Middle East at that time, no, not the Middle East, the Far East.
TO: Did you ever work on American aircraft?
GR: Did I ever?
TO: Work on American aircraft.
GR: Yes! Many times, these at Warrington, and in India.
TO: What did you think of these American aircraft?
GR: Oh, we thought they were quite good, that’s all. [Noise]
TO: Shall I close it? Sorry. [Door closing] [/noise]
GR: Did you want that closed?
TO: It’s just that the noise interferes.
[Other]: Noise outside.
GR: But it’s very warm in here.
[Other]: We’ll open it up.
TO: We’ll open it later. Did you ever help train any pilots?
GR: Not until after the war, yes. After the war I became what they called Chief Engineer for a small fleet of aircraft down at Gatwick. We had, there, there was a Dakota which, which was all very familiar to me, and two other aircraft, a DH89 I think was the other one, and there was another one but I’m not sure whether that was just a Tiger Moth or what.
TO: And do you remember what the nationalities were of the people that you taught?
GR: The nationality?
TO: Yes.
GR: Of the people.
TO: You taught.
GR: As far as I know they were all English.
TO: Did you ever fly anywhere in aircraft?
GR: Did I ever?
TO: During the war did you fly, in any planes?
GR: Yes, two or three times. After we’d done a repair it was sometimes necessary to fly to check it. I was never allowed to become a pilot because I had blood pressure.
TO: Did you enjoy flying?
GR: Oh yes! Done some since.
TO: What was morale like in the Air Force?
GR: The what?
TO: What was the morale of the air force?
GR: I think it was quite good, yeah. There always used, everybody said well we’ll be damn glad to get out of this, but the morale on the whole was quite good.
TO: And what’s the, your best memory of what happened during the war?
GR: I don’t know. I think the best memory was going across the Atlantic on the way to Brazil, or not Brazil, I think it was Rio de Janeiro we went to. I was, I mean I was always disappointed, or upset if you like, by the parting from my wife, but that just had to go on.
TO: So what year did you get married?
GR: Amazingly enough, before the war started. Whatever that, whatever date the war started was the date we got married [laugh].
TO: And what did you think of the German aircraft?
GR: The German aircraft. Never had much to do with them so difficult to pass an opinion. No.
TO: Did German aircraft ever attack where you were?
GR: No, not to my knowledge.
TO: [Pause] Okay. Ask him.
[Other]: Are you too tired to continue?
GR: Thank you.
[Other]: You okay, to continue, or you too tired?
TO: Are you feeling tired?
[Other]: Are you feeling tired, are you feeling tired George, or can you continue?
TO: Do you want to continue or are you feeling tired?
GR: I’m getting tired quite honestly.
TO: Okay, I’ll just ask a couple more questions. Then we’ll do.
TO: Do you remember what you did on the day the war ended?
GR: No. [Laugh]
TO: How did you, do you feel today about Germany today and the war?
GR: I don’t have any feelings about them at all really. Course everybody hated Hitler and we were all delighted the way he was gone, but apart from that.
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
GR: What?
TO: Do you think the war was worth it?
GR: I’ve never even considered that. That’s a difficult question to say. In some ways it was worth it. It made us, I think Churchill used to say “stir up,” [laugh] made people work a bit harder in factories and everything.
TO: Do you think that Bomber Command was treated unfairly?
GR: Bomber Command was what?
TO: Treated unfairly, after the war?
GR: No, I don’t know, is the answer to that.
TO: What do you think of films that have been made about the war?
GR: What do I think of?
TO: The films that have been made about the war?
GR: Do you know, I haven’t seen any films made about the war, so I don’t know how many that were made.
TO: How do you feel about Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
GR: What?
TO: Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
GR: In Iraq. I think we should have probably kept out of it. What was his name the Prime Minister in those days? I’ve forgotten his name now.
TO: Blair.
GR: Blair, that’s right. I think we were more or less drawn into it with America, in a way.
TO: And how do you feel today about Japan or Italy?
GR: Going back to your first question. I remember that part of Iraq which the Iraqi’s had taken over, I forgotten that bit in the south and we were a bit upset about that and probably that was one of the reasons we took part in the war. What was it?
TO: Kuwait.
GR: The rain?
TO: Kuwait do you mean.
GR: It’s in the south of Iraq. You may be right, I can’t remember now.
TO: How do you feel today about your wartime service?
GR: About?
TO: Your wartime service?
GR: I never gave it a thought. I thought, yeah, I feel I just did my bit, and that was it.
TO: And is there anything you want to add about what’s happened to you which you want to talk about?
GR: Not particularly no, I’ve lived my life quite satisfactory I might say. Some things I would have done differently.
TO: Right, well thank you very much, I really enjoyed hearing your story. Thank you.
GR: I’m sorry I’ve been this deaf.
TO: No that’s fine, it’s fine, thank you.
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Interview with George Rogers
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Tom Ozel
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:12:08 Audio Recording
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ARogersG160613
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Pending review
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eng
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Sound
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Royal Air Force
Royal Navy
Description
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Summary: George Rogers joined the RAF in 1930 at 16 as an aircraft mechanic. He talks about the build up to war, rationing and the fall of France. George was sent to India with the Royal Navy. Holidays and relaxation are discussed with stories from his time abroad, his feelings about leaders and morale in the RAF. Towards the end of the war he was sent back to the UK and enjoyed being back with his wife, becoming a Chief Engineer at Gatwick after leaving the service.
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Great Britain
India
England--Buckinghamshire
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Anne-Marie Watson
entertainment
ground crew
ground personnel
home front
RAF Halton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1288/17230/AHarrisDR190508.1.mp3
6a11b42596b674bae0164350fdeba8e7
Dublin Core
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Title
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Harris, Donald Raymond
D R Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Donald Harris (B. 1925, 1877136 Royal Air Force) and two photographs. He served as an air gunner on 625 Squadron Lancaster at the end of the war when he flew on Operation Manna.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald Harris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, DR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HB: Right. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive on the 8th of May 2019 between Harry Bartlett, volunteer with the Digital Archive and Mr Donald Raymond Harris who served in Bomber Command during the Second World War. Well, thank you for agreeing to the interview Don. The interview is taking place at Earls Barton in Northamptonshire, where Mr Harris lives. Right. Don, well like all good stories we start at the beginning so where were you born?
DH: Acton, London.
HB: Right. Oh right, and did you, you went to school there did you? Yeah.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: A Common School. A Common School.
HB: A Common School. Oh right. So, you were at that school until what sort of age?
DH: Fourteen.
HB: Fourteen. Right. And so that would be, yeah we would be talking about the year war was breaking out.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So, as you came to fourteen did you, did you leave school and go to work straightaway?
DH: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: At fourteen.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. And what sort of things did you do, Don?
DH: What? Work?
HB: Yeah.
DH: Teaboy.
HB: Right.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Well. That’s, that’s what the official title was. I was the teaboy.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And I had to travel from Acton in London to Slough to go to work. I had to catch a lorry that took me down there with all the men.
HB: Right.
DH: Digging the road up, laying gas mains.
HB: Right.
DH: That’s what my Reserved Occupation was because gas mains were being bombed. Broken. All kinds of things. So we had to go out and repair them. And there had to be a teaboy because you could not allow the men to walk off to get cigarettes or tobacco or whatever else.
HB: Oh.
DH: I had to do it. I had to go and get the men’s, whatever they wanted. They weren’t allowed to leave the job.
HB: Right.
DH: So that was the original.
HB: Yeah.
DH: It was rather amusing in as much that being totally ignorant and fourteen years old I also had to tidy up round the office. There was an office for the ganger and I had to tidy up coke because it spread you know. That kind of thing. And I found a little package about that big. Didn’t know what it was so I took it in to the boss’s office and I opened it and it was all the men’s wages. The stupid agent had hidden it amongst the coke.
HB: Oh dear.
DH: So, I locked the office, went up to see the ganger. What was his name? Dave. No. No. Anyway, the ganger. I went up to him. I just took him to one side. I said, ‘I found a package.’ He said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘I found a package,’ I said, ‘And it’s got all the men’s wages.’ ‘Come with me.’
HB: Right. Yeah.
DH: So, he went there and he counted how many wages there were which was right. He said, ‘Ok.’ He wanted to make sure —
HB: Yeah.
DH: I hadn’t put one aside. But that was some of the interesting things as a very young boy.
HB: Yeah.
DH: At fourteen years old.
HB: Yeah. Who, who were you actually working for?
DH: At that time it was a company called O C Summers.
HB: Right. Right.
DH: That was the name of the company.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Eventually, I mean I got rather well known and when that job finished I came back to London, worked with another ganger in [pause] it was in Shepherd’s Bush. Which is near, well not near but reasonably near home. I could go there by bus. So that was the second one. Then [pause] when that work finished, you know we’d go to another job. And it was then that my brother was reported missing in Burma.
HB: Oh right.
DH: I did get a lot of information because a friend of mine daughter went up to London and got a lot more information about them. He was the 3rd Carabiniers, which was tanks and they did a silly thing. They drove their tank up and they saw a tank, a Japanese tank on its own. And as far as they can learn all the people, there were five, four members of that tank that were captured by the Japs. They don’t know what happened to them. Never found any remains or anything like that.
HB: So, what year would that be Don?
DH: Oh, fairly early in the war.
HB: Yeah.
DH: When they first got to Burma.
HB: Right. Right. Yeah.
DH: That’s when it was. But she got a lot of information. Although they couldn’t find the graves or anything like that they itemised the four people that were missing because that’s, they had to report them missing.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: They put up a memorial then. I think it was Calcutta. With their names on it.
HB: Right. Yeah.
DH: But that’s all.
HB: Right.
DH: I got to sixteen so it must have ‘39 or ‘40/41 time.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Then I decided then that I would want to go in to the Service and the eldest brother was in the Royal Corps of Signals.
HB: Right. Yeah.
DH: He was the eldest.
HB: So, let me just stop you there, Don. So, there’s you, two brothers.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Mum. Dad. Any other family in there? There? Sisters?
DH: No. My sister died before the war.
HB: Oh right. Right.
DH: She was twenty five.
HB: Oh dear.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So, yeah. Sorry. So, yeah. You decided that you were going to join.
DH: Yeah.
HB: The Services.
DH: I wanted to join it. Now, there was a unit in Acton, in the school there which, what the devil was the name of the people training for the Air Force?
HB: Air Training Corps.
DH: Yeah. It was. And that was in a big school. High school. Up in there. And I went there once a week. Only to once a week and it was quite interesting because we went through lots of things. Not guns. Not guns.
HB: No.
DH: But radio. Morse Code. All that lot. You know.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So that was interesting. Then I got a letter to report to a place up where the balloons flew from. I can’t get it yet because I do forget.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But anyway —
HB: Oh, well, that’s understandable. Yeah.
DH: Where the in the balloons. We went there and we went through several tests and it came out that I’d remembered some of the Morse Code [laughs]
HB: Oh right. Right.
DH: Anyway, it was a little while later on when I got a letter to report to St John’s Wood.
HB: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Yeah. Report there. And they entered me as a wireless operator air gunner.
HB: Oh, w/op. Yeah.
DH: And once I got used to being in London the next place I moved to was Bridlington.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Just to make sure I wasn’t near home like.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But I had a sergeant. Brilliant. Blakey. Sergeant Blakey. He was absolutely brilliant. And our particular unit we got the highest recommendations. He was brilliant. Absolutely. Only a small fella but a sergeant and he really was good.
HB: So, was it, was this your, like doing your basic training —
DH: Yeah.
HB: Don.
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Right. So, so we’d be talking what now? We’d be talking, coming up 1943/44.
DH: Yeah.
HB: That sort of the time.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And we had twelve bore guns shooting out to sea.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
DH: It was great. And this was the first time in my life I’d ever run six miles. Run. And I had to run from the coast back to my camp. And I thought oh. I laid down on a bed when I got back and I was puffing and at my age I should have been fit. Anyway, that was that. Then I got sent to [pause] oh Christ. A wireless school was at [pause] isn’t it funny? I can’t remember. Big city. Big city and, you know Hartleys Jam and things.
HB: Yeah.
DH: They owned the land that we were on.
HB: Right.
DH: And they said if ever you want to work come and work in the fields with all the fruit —
HB: Lovely.
DH: Got paid.
HB: So that, so that would be [pause] was that north? Did you go north?
DH: No. Never.
HB: Or, I’m just trying to place because there were one or two wireless schools.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Knocking about.
DH: Yeah. No, that was [pause] Hereford.
HB: Hereford. Right. Yes. Yeah.
DH: Hereford.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And while I was there I got ill and of course the sick quarters was well, kind of a hospital. Kind of. But the girls who were nurses only went for the officers. And then they sent me to a hospital. Credenhill Hospital. I’ve remembered that right down to the last word. The nurses there were like lady so and so.
HB: Oh.
DH: Oh yeah. And they were really good. They were good. And I met another bloke named Don and we both could play darts.
HB: Oh, right. Yeah.
DH: And we used to go in to town, go in to a pub. That was our first shall we say attempt of them getting their beer for nothing but instead of that we both could play darts.
HB: Right.
DH: And so we didn’t buy a pint. They did. Yeah. No, this is all reacting because I was ill. I really was. How I got to the hospital I don’t know. I was out.
HB: What did you have? Did you have some sort of pleurisy? Or —
DH: Cold and chill and something else.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: It was all luck. And that, then I went back to the school. You know the —
HB: Yeah. The wireless school.
DH: Went to see the officer in charge and I said, ‘We’re not getting anywhere.’ I said, ‘Nobody is wanting wireless operators. There’s plenty of them.’ There was. I said, ‘I want to remuster. Air gunner.’ He said, ‘Yeah. If you wish to do that we could do it.’ So I remustered as an air gunner. And do you know what they stamped on my docs? Lack of moral fibre. Yeah. If you found my documents you’d find it’s got, “Lack of Moral Fibre,” on them because I remustered. I remustered to a more dangerous bloody job.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Anyway, I wanted that and they sent me to the island at the beginning of the Thames.
HB: Sheppey.
DH: Sheppey. Which was a Fighter Command. They sent me there. They were Typhoons, Tempests. That’s what they were and they used to start them with a long cartridge. They’d be turning it over with the battery and then he’d fire it which would kick the engine over and start.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Well, the engine was a Napier. Made by Napier’s anyway and oh they were powerful things. God, they were powerful. It only took a very short distance to take off.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: And it was really, talk about noisy. Christ. Totally different to the Spitfire.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Totally different, but it was good. So, from there I was sent to Bridgnorth.
HB: Were you? Yeah.
DH: Bridgnorth was a Gunnery School and there we did all the necessary flashlights and bit of this and bits of that and stripped the gun down and put it back. But it was just right. I liked it. I really did. And anybody that didn’t read the Morse Code with the lamp didn’t get in.
HB: Right.
DH: I did. I could read it easy. It didn’t make any difference. So, I finished there and sent me home. Home.
HB: Right.
DH: Until I got a summons to go to Aylesbury.
HB: Yeah.
DH: There was a main aerodrome and a sub. A little one.
HB: Yeah. Little satellite. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Yeah. And we were in Wellingtons. Lovely aircraft but a bugger to fly and even at one time the skipper, who was, who was New Zealand, he called me up from the turret, ‘Come up and help me.’ So of course, I went up there and said, ‘What’s the matter, skip?’ He says, ‘Help me push this bloody thing down.’ [laughs] Because Aylesbury is all hilly.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: And the draught coming up was coming up and lifting us instead of going down.
HB: Oh dear.
DH: So I got in to the co-pilot’s seat and shoved it and we got down.
HB: Was this, so this was an Operational Training Unit.
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Yeah. Well, we used to have to turn the engines over by hand.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. How did, how did you get in to a crew there? Did it —
DH: When we went to the main aerodrome.
HB: Yeah.
DH: There. We got all the crew sorted out. We didn’t do it.
HB: Oh right.
DH: They did it.
HB: Right.
DH: So, the pilot was New Zealander. The bomb aimer was New Zealander. The wireless operator was Irish. Irish. Not Northern Ireland. Irish. Our mid-upper gunner was Scotch. Bob. I even remember where he lived. Edinburgh. The main road. That’s where he lived. And me. So that’s six of us. We hadn’t got the engineer.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And we went oh several times. We went over, we had to fly over London to let the air people shoot at us. But they were told to shoot low [laughs] and also the searchlight.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
DH: Because the searchlights taught them and us.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: And then we flew back to Aylesbury. That’s where we were going. So we landed at the auxiliary aircraft because the other place was busy. We landed and we, you know that type of aircraft the Wellington was kind of a big aircraft. But it’s also marvellous for keeping flying even if it had got a hole in the side, you know.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And all of a sudden we got a warning and all the lights went on. Americans landed because they couldn’t land at their aerodrome so they could land at ours and of course they’d got all these big fur coats and Christ knows what else on. Oh, and they were, got their big aircraft with four engines, you know. All this. A couple of the English blokes there said, ‘Yeah. You go underneath our wings, don’t you?’ Almost caused a fight but never mind. From there we went to just north of Stamford. There was an aerodrome on the farm land that done it and they had Stirlings. Bloody great things. Seventeen foot to the bottom of the aircraft. We weren’t interested in that. We transferred from there to Lancasters and we were trained on the Lancasters. Now —
HB: Can you can you remember what that airfield was? Was it Woolfox? No.
DH: It was about three miles outside Stamford.
HB: Right. Yeah.
DH: On the main road by the way. A1.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And the airfield was on the right, and we had interlopers follow our aircraft in and they bombed the bloody girl’s place. WAAFs. Killed a lot of them.
HB: Oh dear.
DH: But anyway, that’s good. We did further training and for the skipper’s point of view nobody else. Him and me. And we practiced corkscrewing.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Do you know what that is?
HB: Yeah. Well, you. You tell me what it is.
DH: Well —
HB: I presume you were a rear gunner.
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: We took off. Got up to a height and then we were looking for fighter. And it was there was the fighter. The skipper said, ‘Can you see what it is?’ I said, ‘Yeah. A Spitfire.’ [laughs] So, he said, ‘Right,’ he said, ‘So, is he within range?’ I said, ‘No. Miles away.’ It was amazing I could recognise it. Anyway, all of a sudden I saw this Spitfire getting closer and closer and when it got to about six hundred feet I said, ‘Corkscrew port go.’ And of course, where does the tail go? Voom.
HB: Straight up in the air.
DH: Straight up [laughs]. And I had a camera.
HB: Yeah.
DH: On the guns and I followed it to the word. Down, port, up starboard oh. Got a complete film. Complete film. So the Spitfire broke away. Waggled to say good. And that was it as far as I was concerned. And then we got back, landed and that afternoon of course the cameras went in to the photography department and they, we got a call over a tannoy, ‘Warrant Officer Mitchell and crew attend the Photography Unit.’ I thought oh, I must have made a mistake. Instead of that the bloke that did it, it was an officer and he said, ‘Watch it.’ He said. It only goes for a short while because you’re down. Up. Up. Up. You know. So we did. The film was absolutely perfect.
HB: Oh right.
DH: And this officer turned around and he said, ‘You’ve got one of the best gunners that I’ve tested.’ He said, ‘That pilot was dead from the first shot.’
HB: Really?
DH: Yeah. I thought well that’s —
HB: Yeah.
DH: And then we had the other test to show that we were fit for action. It was, you know, the usual things. Aircraft recognition.
HB: Yeah.
DH: How to load your guns and all that kind of thing. And then we all had to attend a meeting with the people who were in charge of all of that and he said, ‘We’ve got some good results.’ What was he? A squadron leader, I think. And he said, ‘We’ve got some exceptionally good people.’ So, he said, ‘136.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘You’ve got nineteen and a half points.’ I said, ‘Out of how many?’ ‘Twenty.’ Nineteen and a half out of twenty. And the one thing I forgot. Where [pause] you know how the bullets go down a tray.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Into the turret. Up into the guns. Right. Now, when you stop these continue to run.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So something has got to stop them. At the bottom of the tray here there’s a hole like that which just fits the bullet. So it goes into that hole and it stops running.
HB: Right.
DH: And that’s what I missed.
HB: Oh.
DH: And my mid-upper gunner got nineteen. Just shows you doesn’t it?
HB: That’s, it’s still pretty good.
DH: To me it was of interest because I wanted to be perfect as a —
HB: Yeah.
DH: It’s a, I’m a defender.
HB: Yeah.
DH: You know. So, we did. It was good.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And then from there I went to oh I can’t remember the name. I did tell you.
HB: Was this being posted to a squadron?
DH: Yeah. 625.
HB: 625, yeah.
DH: Which was, come on. It’s six miles outside. North of Lincoln. It’s a permanent station.
HB: At Scampton.
DH: Scampton.
HB: I wasn’t supposed to help you there but —
DH: No.
HB: I thought I would.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Being as you got nineteen and a half for your gunnery I thought I’ll let you have that.
DH: Yeah. Yeah. We were Scampton. We did. We did. I’ll tell you what I liked about what we did. I’m not talking about killing people I’m talking about what I liked. We flew to Holland. Instead of bombs we had sacks of food.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Marvellous. I was so pleased to see that.
HB: Do you remember what that operation was called?
DH: Yeah. Because we had to follow the sign on the, painted on the roof of the hospital. And it was two fields beyond and we had to drop the food there. One silly pilot flew underneath another one and when [laughs] it went straight through the cockpit.
HB: Blimey. Yeah.
DH: Flew. Flour everywhere. Daft.
HB: Did you know that was called Operation Manna?
DH: No.
HB: Manna from heaven.
DH: No.
HB: Yeah.
DH: I know I liked it. We were only a hundred feet high.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And as we flew along, I mean the roads and everything else I got a clear view because as you know there was no back in the turret.
HB: Yeah.
DH: I was amazed to see this German and a machine gun but he wasn’t anywhere near it. He stood well back.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And when I looked at him I thought Christ he could only be fifteen. Fourteen. Fifteen. And we were told not to get near the guns. Good job because I mean we were all loaded.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: And we flew back over the sea at a hundred feet. I didn’t like that.
HB: No. I can imagine.
DH: No. Not really.
HB: Yeah.
DH: It was alright but I mean we trusted the skipper obviously but I just didn’t like it. It was too near the sea.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Which is going to, but no. They said we mustn’t fly.
HB: Had you actually flown any night operations before that, Don?
DH: We were on the battle order two or three times.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But we didn’t go. We went out to the aircraft. Went to the nice little café in the middle of the airfield. You know where I mean?
HB: Yeah.
DH: And it was nice because we got eggs and bacon and a few —
HB: Who was running that café? Was that —
DH: Yeah. Lovely.
HB: Was that the WAAFs running that or —
DH: No.
HB: No.
DH: No. The Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
DH: They ran that.
HB: Yeah.
DH: It was really nice. It really was. We thought we would get a call in a minute which you were liable to do. If you get one of the others calling with the breakdown of engine or whatever else then we would have gone.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But I think we, four, four times. Yeah. And that was at Scampton.
HB: Right. Right. So you were, you were like the reserve group.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Ready to fill in.
DH: We were the first reserve. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But that’s what they said when you said you were on the Battle Order. You are. You’ve got to obey whatever. Another thing we did there was when the, when the troops were advancing over in Germany and France and Belgium directly they got to this Air Force place. Well, it became an Air Force place. It was Belgian place. We were told to go there, land, switch off your engines. Switch off.
HB: Right.
DH: Yeah. Because there were still some bomb holes in the [laughs]and they were filling them in quick.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And we were bringing in prisoners of war home. And we brought them to England.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Buckinghamshire, I think somewhere. And then we flew home.
HB: Right.
DH: And we did that twice.
HB: So you, so you flew from Scampton.
DH: Yeah.
HB: You flew over to Belgium.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Parked up if you want to call it that.
DH: Yeah.
HB: And then how would the prisoners of war arrive?
DH: Oh, they were there in, this was the stupid part. They were there and they had fed them. Fed.
HB: Oh.
DH: Yeah. You can imagine. They fed them beautiful meals and when we got them on board. Oh —
HB: Yeah.
DH: It was a bit rough. But anyway, we got them home. Directly we landed in Buckinghamshire somewhere and unloaded them. Then we flew back. And then they had the job of cleaning the aircraft.
HB: Who? Who cleaned the aircraft?
DH: Ground crew. Yeah. They had power hoses and everything.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But there again at least we got some of them back home.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: We then got orders to move to [pause] I can never remember the name. I wasn’t there long. Where the bombers are? Where you went.
Other: Coningsby.
HB: Coningsby.
DH: Coningsby. We got there. We were just getting settled in and what’s the squadron? 97? [pause] And about three days later we were called into operations room. We had to fly to Italy.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And we went. There’s two areas which we could have gone to. But the one we chose was at the foot of Vesuvius. Right at the foot. We landed at Naples Airport but we couldn’t take off because the runways weren’t long enough with a load of people on board.
HB: Oh.
DH: We were —
HB: So this was all still part of Operation Exodus.
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Bringing the prisoner of war home.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Right.
DH: But those there were mainly officers.
HB: Yeah.
DH: What was it called? Lamy? Lamy camp?
HB: Could be. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Yeah. I think it was.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And they were nearly all officers. So —
HB: This is, this is still in Lancasters.
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: The dodgy bit was with a load of people on board. As the gunner it would have been my job to dash about with an oxygen mask for each one to have a puff. But I never made it. I was ill.
HB: Right.
DH: Yeah. I went into this hospital in [pause] just south of Naples. It’s a little place. And I was in there for two or three weeks. When I came out I went and saw the sergeant that was in charge of getting people home and I said, ‘Right. When can you get me home?’ I said, ‘My skipper’s gone.’ I said, ‘He’s already taken off.’ Because the Yanks came and right at the end of the runway was trees.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And I’m afraid their big load of stuff took off and they had all the trees [bulbed] out and the runway lengthened.
HB: Oh right.
DH: So that they could get off.
HB: Yeah.
DH: It’s purely luck. Not anything else. It was warm.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Naples.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Warm. Christmas time. And we had our Christmas dinner in the palace at Naples.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. What rank were you at this stage?
DH: Flight sergeant.
HB: You were a flight sergeant. Right. Yeah.
DH: Nice. Everything. Then they said, ‘You’ve got to fly.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Good.’ So, I said, ‘What do you want me to do?’
HB: ‘Act as a rear gunner.’
DH: I said, ‘Well, I won’t act at it,’ I said, ‘I am one.’ So, he said, ‘Oh. Alright.’ So, he said, ‘Well, you’ve got to look after the men on board.’ Twenty. Twenty men. Apart from the crew, you know.
HB: Yeah.
DH: We couldn’t take more than that because we had to go over the Alps.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
DH: The air is different.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So, we did go over the Alps. And it was a bit of job to go amongst all the people so I got the mid-upper gunner to do the same for the other ten. So I did ten and he did ten.
HB: Right. This was with the oxygen.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Well, up there over the Alps there is no oxygen, virtually.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So —
HB: So, did they give you extra oxygen bottles for them? Or —
DH: Oh yeah. Portable ones.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Or you could plug it in where ever you had it.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Where the hospital bed was, you know.
HB: Yeah.
DH: There was one there.
HB: That’s up, so that’s up by the main spar.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Going through. Yeah.
DH: So, you’d got all kinds of things that you could use. But we did. We got over the other side of the Alps and we came down to a nice level. Twenty thousand was nice. And we suddenly got a broadcast. The skipper, we still had plug in and this skipper whoever he was, and I’ve still no idea who he was said, ‘We’re not going home.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘No.’ He said, ‘Fog in England. Covered in fog.’ So we couldn’t land. I knew we could if we’d have gone on FIDO.
HB: What, what was FIDO?
DH: Fog dispersal. They had the runway covered in a pipe with loads of holes and big huge tanks of petrol and they pumped it through and lit it and that just lifted the fog. Very dangerous if the skipper wasn’t alert because the heat from the [pause] would lift it.
HB: Lift the aircraft. Yeah.
DH: Anyway, that, we didn’t go. So we had to land in southern France. Now that was not popular. We landed. We were told to switch off the engines and sit in the aircraft. Not leave it. That was the Frenchmen. Well, didn’t like that.
HB: Yeah.
DH: We were fighting for them as well. Anyway, we sat there and it must have been about midnight I think because we took off at 9 o’clock in Italy.
HB: Yeah.
DH: When we got down in France as I said we sat there and then we got clearance from England.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So, the engineer went out, primed the engines, started them and we took off and we landed somewhere near the Wash. Well, that’s where FIDO is.
HB: Oh right.
DH: Yeah. I mean it was quite interesting actually to know that we couldn’t use FIDO. Mind you it would have used a hell of a lot of fuel.
HB: Yeah.
DH: It gets pumped through at a hell of rate.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But we knew all about it because we were told about it. We couldn’t train on it but we were told about it and it was quite interesting but then I wasn’t at my aerodrome.
HB: No. Of course not. No.
DH: The people there were looking at it. How can I get home? And suddenly this officer came and he said, ‘I’ve just been brought down here by a vehicle. He’s going to go back. Not quite to your aerodrome but he will take you there.’ I thought oh thank God for that. You know.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And we went up through Boston. Lovely.
HB: Yeah.
DH: What was that? Bloody hell. What was that station? Dogdyke.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: What a name for a station. Dogdyke.
HB: Yeah.
DH: That’s the station’s name. So, we went back there. I said, well I’ll need a bed.
HB: Just bear with me a second, Don. I’ll just pause this a second just while the tea —
[recording paused]
HB: Right. We just turned the tape back on after we’ve been provided with tea and biscuits. So, we’ve got these officers from Italy. We’ve come back and we’ve landed.
DH: The van.
HB: At Dogdyke.
DH: It was a van.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Took me right back.
HB: Took you all the way up to Dogdyke.
DH: Yeah. They took me to the entrance.
HB: Right.
DH: Yeah. Yeah. I walked in. Well, I didn’t walk in. They, I got stopped at the gate but when I said who I was and what I was. ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Yeah. The adjutant wants to see you.’ So, I thought how did he know I was. I thought to myself they must have told him in Italy. Anyway, I said, ‘Well, it’s a bit late now. I doubt very much if he’s there.’ So, I said, ‘Is he still there?’ ‘No.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll need a bed for tonight.’ The bloke said. ‘We’ve allocated you one already.’ So I went there and evidently it was a new crew that had just, there was a spare bed.
HB: So, I bet you were popular.
DH: Well no. There was a spare bed. I don’t know why. But anyway. I went to bed and I did sleep. I really did sleep. I didn’t know what was going on. The next bed to me the bloke said, ‘You were dreaming.’ I said, ‘Was I?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘And it sounded pretty bloody awful.’ ‘Oh.’ I felt alright you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Anyway, I got up. Got dressed. Went to see the adjutant. What’s going on. I didn’t know then so I said, ‘You wanted to see me sir.’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Alright. What’s going to happen because my crew’s not here.’ He said, ‘No. They’re on your way to New Zealand.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘Yeah. Two have gone to New Zealand, one’s gone to Edinburgh, one’s gone to Ireland, the other one to London.’ I thought, ‘Oh.’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘And you are on your way to Uxbridge. Do you know where it is?’ I said, ‘Oh, yeah [laughs] Do I know where it is?’ So, I said, ‘Why am I going now for?’ ‘Demob.’ ‘Oh.’ ‘You sound surprised.’ I said, ‘Well, I am. I like the Air Force.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘You can’t.’ Just like that. He said, ‘You’re going. In front of me are all your train passes. All your leave passes. And you will be going to Dogdyke Station.’ That’s why I remembered it.
HB: Right.
DH: So that I had to go from there to Boston. Train to London. Get another train from there to Uxbridge. You get out at Uxbridge and there would be a vehicle waiting for you. It was well organised. It really was well organised. I mean that. Everything was like he said. Got to Uxbridge. Looked. There was a vehicle. I said, ‘Where are we going now?’ ‘Oh, Wembley.’ ‘What for?’ He said, ‘Demob.’ I thought, Christ. They’ve done that all in the time that the phone message going from Italy. Now, that is some organisation.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Bloody well is. Really is.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And of course, when I got to Wembley they were ready for me. Gave them my paper. I got my shoes [laughs] blue suit, shirt, tie. All complete. Everything was there.
HB: What did you have? Did you have a cap or a trilby hat?
DH: Trilby.
HB: I thought. Yeah. Trilby.
DH: And that was it.
HB: Yeah. After those years that you’d spent just finished.
DH: Yeah. No, they, once he said, ‘You’re going back,’ I knew what he meant because obviously the amount of damage created by the bombs was tremendous in London and that’s where we worked.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Oh Christ. We even laid a main on top of the pavement. On top of it. To pump water because water mains down below were broke.
HB: So how quick did you go back to doing your job from being demobbed?
DH: Straightaway.
HB: You didn’t have any leave or anything or —
DH: Oh no.
HB: No.
DH: No.
HB: Right.
DH: Straightaway.
HB: And did you go back to, was it OC Summers, was it?
DH: Yeah.
HB: You went straight back to them.
DH: Yeah.
HB: And they, had they kept your job for you?
DH: Oh yeah.
HB: Yeah.
DH: They had to.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So then —
HB: So, what job did you go back to, Don?
DH: As a joint maker.
HB: Right.
DH: A joint maker. It’s one that the sockets and spigots enter one another and then you put yarn in and then you run hot lead in. And then you set it up.
HB: Yeah. Ok.
DH: Good. It was very very complicated. I used to go with a ganger and then they’d come and get me to take me to another ganger to run his joints for him.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And then go back to it.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Like that.
HB: So, what, what year would this be then, Don?
DH: The end of the war.
HB: ‘45/46.
DH: Yeah ’46.
HB: ’46. Yeah.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Can I just take you back a little bit, Don?
DH: Yes. Yes. Yes.
HB: You know, before you joined you were in Acton. You would have gone through the Blitz.
DH: Oh yes.
HB: And your family. You had bombing around Acton.
DH: Yeah. We had a bomb in the bottom of the garden [laughs].
HB: In the bottom of the garden.
DH: Well, I had a big garden.
HB: Oh right. Well, yeah.
DH: We had a long garden.
HB: Yeah.
DH: It must have been about a hundred feet long. Something like that.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And the bomb was at the bottom. It did kill a boy. Sixteen year old in the house opposite [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
DH: He got caught, you know.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Terrible. Yeah. I was there when the fires were roaring like hell. A big red glow in the docks.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Yeah.
HB: And so, so obviously you’ve come through that. Did you actually ever fly a live, I’ll call it a live operation to actually drop bombs?
DH: No.
HB: Right. Right. So, you come towards the end of the war. You’re what by now? You’re nineteenish. Twentyish. What about girlfriends?
DH: No.
HB: Social life.
DH: Not interested.
HB: Did you not have a social life in the RAF?
DH: No. The only social life was in a pub in Lincoln.
HB: Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
DH: And it was in the cattle market. There used to be a cattle market.
HB: Yeah.
DH: There was a cattle market in Lincoln and there was a pub in the cattle market.
HB: So, yeah, so you come to the end of the war. You’ve gone back to OC Summers and you’re now doing a jointer, a jointer’s job and did you, did you just carry on with them then?
DH: Them. Yeah. For forty years.
HB: Forty years.
DH: Yeah. Because they count service as working for them.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: That was, oh before, before the forty years I was made a ganger and I went in to a gas works which I never expected.
HB: Oh right.
DH: Because that was a vastly different type of job. You do all kinds of heavy lifting. Crane work and everything else.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Now, I was the ganger there. The original ganger was ill and died and I took over.
HB: Right.
DH: Directly I took over they started to do big work. I ended up with, you know twenty five men doing different jobs.
HB: Yeah.
DH: I couldn’t cope because I couldn’t be everywhere at once.
HB: No. No.
DH: So, I asked the governor who I knew personally, I asked him if he could get me some men with knowledge. And one of the men he sent in was a ganger that I worked for.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And he came, he came in and he says, ‘Hello Don.’ I said, ‘Hello,’ I said, ‘Christ, I haven’t seen you — ’ because he was very experienced. And he said, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘Don’t let it worry you.’ He said, ‘You’ve got the responsibility. Not me.’
HB: Yes.
DH: See. And he was a very nice bloke.
HB: Yeah.
DH: He really was.
HB: Yeah.
DH: I mean, we used to go fishing together. We went, particularly when we worked night work I drove him home in the morning and then we’d drive out. —
HB: Oh right.
DH: And go fishing.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Anyway, Sammy Jefferies his name was. A really, a nice bloke. And he was [pause] amazed at the work I was doing. We had a forty eight inch main, gas main which gathered all the gas out the tanks into pumps, in to a main and so forth. And I had to cut a bit out of the gas main. We used to cut. Put a collar on and then put another bit of pipe in and draw the cord up. And that’s the first forty eight inch joint I’d run.
HB: Right.
DH: And what we had to do was we had a twelve inch ladle. Twelve inch. Quite deep. We filled that up first and then one bloke stood there, one bloke stood there with another nine inch ladle to top me up if I said so. Because if I couldn’t see that we were going to run it we could run out of lead so we pulled it in to my ladle and then I ran it.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So we did it. And the senior engineer in the gas works he had done a bit of district work, what we called district work and he stood there the whole time that I got it apart. Because we put gas bags up the main.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: To stop gas coming through. Well, we shut the valves but I mean —
HB: Yeah.
DH: If they leaked.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And that was me. I came. They took me out of the works, Summers and put me in charge of a gang that’s going on holiday. A gang of men. So, I did that. Then they sent me to another one by St Pancras Station where there was a T-junction. And the lid was around but it was leaking bad. So the main there was eighteen. Eighteen. Eighteen inch. What I had to do was shut it off. So I ordered twenty four inch bags to put in there so that a twenty four inch bag would fill it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Up.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Take the lid off. Re-drill it. Put new bolts in. Whip it out. And put it in. You’d be surprised. It’s really quite a technical job.
HB: I wouldn’t be surprised. I’d be terrified.
DH: Bloody hell. But after I’d been there for forty years John Laing —
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: Bought Summers because we were making money. So, they bought OC Summers. I lost [pause] well, twenty one years pension because Summer’s pension wasn’t as active to buy me equipment.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah.
DH: So this posh speaking man from Laing came down to one of Summer’s depots which I was then responsible for all depots and he came down and he said, ‘Well, I’m afraid this is what is going to be.’ I said, ‘No. It isn’t.’ I said, ‘You’ve knocked twenty one years off my pension,’ I said. ‘And that’s not on,’ I said, ‘And I’ve got with me several agents who have got over twenty years on sites and I want twenty years pension.’ He said, ‘Are they the agents that’s running the area?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ And he said, ‘Oh, I’ll have to see what I can do.’ And if they all packed up the jobs would stop.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: And eventually he came back and he said, ‘We’ve made arrangements that when you do get to retirement we will give you a gift of money to go in to your pension. Not to you. To the pension.’
HB: Right.
DH: No.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Actually, they did. I did do well in a way. The firm because the old managing director came with the job, got six thousand pound.
HB: Right. Right.
DH: When you put it in the figures to get six thousand pound like that meant a little bit each month. Only a little bit.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: But there you go.
HB: Yeah. So, so you’ve, we’ve gone up to retirement. But you must have got married at some stage.
DH: Oh yes. I did. Oh yes. She was a typist in the gas works.
HB: So that would be, what? Nineteen —
DH: Oh God.
HB: Fifty something.
DH: A bit later than that I think. Well, you can work it out if you like. I didn’t get married until I was thirty eight.
HB: Oh right. Right. So you were thirty eight. Right. Well, yeah. Yeah. That’s, yeah, yeah so you —
DH: My wife.
HB: You were well on. Yeah.
DH: Yeah. And because I’d lived in a house all my life I could not live a flat.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And she had three boys.
HB: Oh right. Right.
DH: Eighteen, sixteen and fifteen. And I said to her, I said, ‘I can’t live in a flat.’ She said, ‘What are we going to do?’ I said, ‘We’re going to buy a house.’ She said, ‘We haven’t got any money.’ I said, ‘I know we haven’t.’ I said, ‘But I know what I’m doing. We’ll go and find a house first. Then we’ll go to Lambeth Borough Council and because this is a flat owned by Lambeth Borough Council they’ll willingly give us the money so that we get out.’
HB: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: It’s true. That is what they did.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And then the first house we bought was in Mitcham, Surrey and it was six thousand pound [laugh] And don’t laugh but that six thousand pound.
HB: Yeah.
DH: But that was a hell of a drain on the money.
HB: Oh, it would have been yeah in those days. Yeah. Yeah.
DH: So, yeah and then the firm decided to make me the depot manager of Watford.
HB: At Watford. Right.
DH: Yeah. But on condition I moved.
HB: Right.
DH: Because I had to be near it because we were on duty day and night. Still mending gas mains.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: So, the pleasant surprise was that it was the firm’s solicitor that dealt with the sale. That means that they paid.
HB: That saved you a few pounds that way. Yeah.
DH: Oh yes. Yes.
HB: Right.
DH: So, we lived in Bushey Mill Lane, Bushey. We lived in there for quite a long time.
HB: Right.
DH: I don’t know how long. Graham would probably tell you.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And we bought a house in Slip End which is near Luton.
HB: Right.
DH: Lovely house. Beautiful house. It was ideal. The first job we did was have double glazing.
HB: Because of the airfield. The airport. Yeah.
DH: Yeah. That was the first job. And unfortunately, she didn’t like it.
HB: Oh dear.
DH: It was a lovely house. You remember it. You liked it didn’t you?
Other: What I remember of it. Yeah.
DH: It was a really nice house. Four bedrooms. About two garages. Lovely. Anyway, she didn’t like it. Move. So we had to find somewhere to move to. So we moved to Sawbridgeworth.
HB: Yeah.
DH: So that is three miles north of [pause] Oh God. Shopped there long enough. Harlow.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Yeah. So, it wasn’t far from Harlow. Three miles. But it was a lovely little village.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Beautiful little village. And it had a direct train line to London.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Which of course is a benefit.
HB: Absolutely. Yeah.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. So you, so we’ve got we’re sort of coming to the end of that part. Just take you right back. Right back. Just something that’s sitting in my mind. When you went, when you did your training and you ended up at the Radio School at Hereford.
DH: Yeah.
HB: You, you were actually doing wireless operator training.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Operator training.
DH: Yeah.
HB: Did you do any air gun training at all there?
DH: No.
HB: No. So you were doing your wireless operator with a view eventually like a lot of them did you would go wireless operator and then you’d do an air gunner course and then you’d be wireless operator air gunner. Right. So I’m about right thinking like that. When they, when you said it’s not, you know it’s not working for me. I’m, you know I’m not happy with it. Did they ever give you a reason why they put it down as lack of moral fibre?
DH: No.
HB: They never gave you a reason.
DH: Never. I didn’t know they did it.
HB: Right.
DH: Until somebody found out for me.
HB: Right. Because were you keeping a logbook or a diary at the time?
DH: No.
HB: No? How strange.
DH: Yeah.
HB: How strange.
DH: No. It’s, it’s stamped across my documents. Where every they are or whatever they are.
HB: Right. That’s [pause] yeah I’ve, it’s just it suddenly, suddenly came to me. I’ve just never heard of that before. Ever. But then to become a rear gunner on a Lancaster. It’s a little bit contradictive to some extent.
HB: Yeah.
DH: Well, look I think we’ve come to a sort of a, bit of a natural conclusion, Don and thanks ever so much for tell me that to consider, considering that before we turned the tape recorder you said you thought that you wouldn’t be able to remember anything I think you’ve done really well. I really do. I think you’ve done well. And it’s, and it’s interesting that you’ve done Operation Manna feeding the Dutch, you’ve done Operation Exodus bringing the prisoners of war back because people only ever think of the Lancasters steaming off in to the night dropping bombs and like you say they were the humanitarian side of it.
DH: Yeah.
HB: As well. Yeah.
DH: I think that’s important.
HB: It is. It’s very important.
DH: And when you look at it the ones we picked up in Belgium some of them were ex-RAF.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
DH: It’s inevitable isn’t it really when you think about it because the planes came down.
HB: Yeah.
DH: And they were put in the prison camps.
HB: Yeah. You were bringing your own home. Well, Don thank you ever so much and we are going to stop the recording because it is nine minutes past four and I think you’ve done an exceptional job, Don and thank you very much. Very useful.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Donald Raymond Harris
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisDR190508
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:20:56 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Donald was born in Acton, London. He stayed at school until he was fourteen and then worked as a tea boy/general help for O. C. Summers, a firm that laid gas mains in Slough. When that job ended, he worked for another ganger in Shepherds Bush. Soon after he heard that one of his brothers was missing in Burma.
When Donald was sixteen, he joined the local Air Training Corps and later went to St. John’s Wood, where he was entered as a wireless operator / air gunner. He did his basic training at RAF Bridlington and was then posted to a wireless school in Hereford. While there he was taken ill and sent to hospital. On his recovery he asked to be re-mustered as an air gunner and was sent to the Isle of Sheppey to be trained on a Napier. He was then posted to RAF Bridgnorth gunnery school. After finishing the course, he was sent home until he was summoned to form a crew. The crew was posted to RAF Halton where they flew on Wellingtons. Their next posting was to RAF Wittering where they transferred to Lancasters. Donald was then posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Scampton. The squadron flew to Belgium and later to Italy to bring prisoners of war home. They also took part in Operation Manna over Holland. On returning to England the crew were split and Donald was posted to RAF Uxbridge and then demobbed. He went back to work at O. C. Summers until his retirement. At the age of 38 Donald married a typist who also worked for O. C. Summers.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Belgium
Italy
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
England--London
Netherlands
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--London
England--Kent
England--Kent
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
625 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crewing up
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF Eastchurch
RAF Halton
RAF Scampton
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1202/11775/AWilliamsonKA180115.1.mp3
202e76c15c7618a10ffd32c7da2908e0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Williamson, Keith Alec
Sir Keith Alec Williamson
K A Williamson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Keith Alec Williamson (1928 - 2018, 582252Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Williamson, KA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Monday the 15th of January 2018 and we’re in Burnham Market talking with Sir Keith Williamson. Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Sir Keith Williamson about his early days and his life as a result of being in the RAF. Sir Keith what are your earliest recollections of life?
KW: I suppose it’s living in Leytonstone in East London. I don’t remember a great deal about it. My, my father had had been in the Army during the war and had been badly injured twice. Badly injured twice, and was maimed and he was at the time, I remember, a junior civil servant. But he had, in fact, I subsequently discovered that he’d at the age of fourteen or fifteen he’d gone off on a ship from London docks as a cabin boy and gone out to South Africa and found he didn’t like being a cabin boy any more so he jumped ship and went to live with his step sister who was at that time living in, married and living in Johannesburg and they were very well off compared with the rest of the family. And he was back on leave in England when war, A, was imminent and then was declared and he and my uncle joined the Territorial Army and went, went off. My uncle was very badly injured as well. It’s actually quite, it is actually quite interesting of course. My uncle was injured by the same shell that maimed my father and killed a friend of theirs and when my father came out of convalescence, he went to see the parents of the friend of his and met my mother who was the daughter, and married her. So, our dynasty, what there was of it emerges from a shell hole in, in Belgium. And I remember, I remember singing, “When the Poppies Bloom Again,” and every November the 11th was a very melancholy experience in our household. And I have an older brother who is four years older than me and he was at that time sent away to, well, he wasn’t sent away actually he was a day boy but at Bancroft School which was a minor public school and I took an examination for a scholarship to Bancroft’s and became a boarder at Bancroft’s and my brother subsequently became a boarder. At that time my mother, I think they you can claim that they were the, not social climbers, I’d rather, and I’d like to put it rather nicely. Anyway, anxious to get away from East End of London. A whole host of people were in the East End of London and we moved out in to Essex and lived, lived at Ilford in Essex at a whole new building estate that people flooded to and thought we were one up on everybody else which we weren’t of course. And at that time my father was still a junior civil servant but my, my grandfather was a, an undertaker in Leytonstone and by our standards he was quite wealthy. I mean we, we had a car before anybody else had a car and I think it came from the profits of people dying around Leytonstone. And it was while I was at, a boarder at Bancroft’s that we saw the Battle of Britain overhead and one night we had a stick of bombs that dropped right across the school which I thought was great fun and I think we had the next day off which was very important. But my parents didn’t think that was great fun and so I was plucked out and sent to a Grammar School in Leicestershire at Market Harborough and it’s, I then joined the Air Training Corps because actually I couldn’t imagine anybody not wanting to be in the Air Force and not wanting to be a pilot in the Air Force. But of course, by the time I I joined the Air Training Corps the war was coming towards it’s end and training had stopped, virtually stopped and I discovered girls. I’d been at a boy’s boarding school and it was a mixed Grammar School and it was absolutely marvellous. They were delightful girls and I still get, keep in touch with a number of them. But I thought of nothing else there. I didn’t do any work at school so I wasn’t terribly well qualified for anything. So, I joined the Air Force initially at Halton and we went to, to Cranwell and at Cranwell we had a massive advantage of having that lovely building right in the middle of where we were training. And although during the war it had been just an ordinary Flying Training School at the end of the war the Flying Training School was closed and it was becoming a Cadet College again and they were looking around for people to populate, populate the, the College. So, I thought that was for me. I think that was pretty cocky of me because I was by no means top of the hamper. There were some much cleverer people than me but in the end six of us got scholarships. One went off to, to Cambridge and the five of us were Cadets at Cranwell in much the same way that had happened before the war. I mean, what’s the name? Whittle had been a Cadet and had gone to, to, had been a brilliant pilot and had gone to Cambridge and become a brilliant scientist. There were a number of others who had done exactly the same thing so nothing particularly remarkable about my, my progress. But I loved it at Cranwell. I got a lot from it because at that time when I left being an aircraft apprentice and became a Cadet, a Cadet with people who had been at normally Sixth Form College, Sixth Form at that stage in their school and I’d very quickly found that we were certainly on a par with them and I was, I was higher up the hamper at Cranwell as a Cadet than I was up the hamper as an apprentice. And of course, then I, we joined a squadron. I joined a Vampire squadron. Marvellous. Every day was Christmas Day. We went to Germany and of course the Korean War was, had broken out and we all volunteered for that and they took the Sabre people from Fighter Command and took the ground attack people, that’s F84s and Meteors by the time we got out there from Germany. From Germany. So, I joined an Australian squadron, 77 Squadron doing ground attack and that really was, it opened my eyes because the Meteor should never have been sold to the Australians. I mean it was, it was a disgrace. We knew that they were, it wasn’t up to, the Meteor was fine for 1945 but it was hopelessly outdated by the time I got to 77 Squadron in, well the early ‘50s. The Americans, and they’ve done it time and time again put so much money into solving the problems of supersonic flight they, they very quickly discovered that thin wings, swept wings were the only answer whereas you look at a Meteor it's got the thickest wings I’ve ever seen and the straightest wings I’ve ever seen. It was not about to solve the problems and its performance in Korea was really rather pathetic although it was flown with great elan by, by the Australians. The subsequent ground attack people from the RAF who went out to, they flew the F-84s and benefited from the, not swept wing but benefited from very thin wings. And so, when I came back from Korea I thought well that’s fine, I’ll now take over a flight on what squadron was begging to have me and discovered that nobody actually wanted me and I went off to be an ADC which is a fate worse than death to anybody who aspires to be a pilot. I, my boss was an irascible bugger but he liked, I’d only just got married and he liked Pat. He didn’t like me but he liked Pat which was fine. I do remember he was CinC Home Command and amongst the other many other things that Home Command looked after, all the odds and sods there, there was NAAFI and he was president of NAAFI. And I can remember I used to, when he was going off on a trip that I wasn’t involved in I’d stand at the door and snap to attention and shut the door and think good I’ve got rid of him for a couple of hours and I’d go and fly. They had a very nice Communications Flight at White Waltham where we were and when he was in a very bad mood and I could tell when he was in a very bad mood I used to shut the door very quickly and get him away as quickly as I could. And on one occasion he was in a terrible mood and was cursing everybody so I got him away and as he was driving away, they had Humbers in those days with a window between the driver and the back and I saw him move the window and he was, his mouth was going at the sergeant driver. When the sergeant got back, I said to him, ‘He was in a pretty bad mood. How did you cope?’ He said, ‘He was no problem. No problem.’ He said, ‘We were going across Lambeth Bridge and he said, “You bloody fool. You’re going across the wrong bridge. This is not where we should go.”’ And this driver ignored him completely and said, ‘No. We’re on the right way, sir.’ And of course, by that time they’d driven up outside NAAFI Headquarters and it was Imperial House and it had enormous letters, “Imperial House,” written right across it. And he looked, he got out, looked up at it and said, ‘Jewson, somebody’s moved the bloody place.’ [laughs] He was, I was, gave me a massive, when I had an ADC and I was getting cross, not that it happened very often of course and his face, his lips were turned down I used to say to him, ‘Don’t look at me like that Richard. I was an ADC to an even bigger shit than me.’ But anyway, I I went, for three, for three years I think I was an ADC and then I turned up at, in those days our postings were done by the Director General of postings 2, in a building in Holborn. And I arrived. Then this squadron leader said, ‘We want you to go and be a flight commander at —’ And I thought, good. Good. And it was some ground training place. I forget which. It was one of, one of the Kirton Lindsey or one of these places and so I said, ‘I’ll do any, I’ll even volunteer for CFS rather than than go on the ground. I must fly.’ And so I did. I went to CFS which I didn’t enjoy and then went in to the flying training more. I went, I was an examiner for a time and I couldn’t wait to get out of it. And now what do I, oh I’ve missed out a Hunter. Where did I go to Hunters? I forget now. Dear God.
Other 2: Would you like a cup of tea?
CB: We’ll just pause a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, the Hunter’s bit was actually in Germany.
KW: Oh yes.
CB: So, what was that?
KW: What do you mean what was that?
CB: No. Where was it?
KW: Well, Bruggen. Bruggen first and they were, this was the time of the Sandys Acts.
CB: Oh yes. ’57.
KW: And so Bruggen, the Bruggen fighter wing was closed overnight and I moved to Oldenburg as a flight commander on Hunters. And then Oldenburg was handed back to the Germans and we moved to Ahlhorn for a short time before coming back to England. That must have been when I went to CFS. Yeah. So, I’ve, I’ve been taking you down the wrong line.
CB: I think you went to CFS in ’58.
KW: That’s right. Just after Sandys.
CB: Yes. Did QFI and then examiner.
KW: Yeah.
CB: What didn’t you like about CFS?
KW: That’s a very good question.
CB: Because you were a pretty experienced bloke like this in action as well as in fighter duties.
KW: No, I [pause] it’s a very good question. I’m not sure what I didn’t like about the CFS but I didn’t like the atmosphere. I came from a fighter squadron and I, I didn’t like examining either. Sitting on my hands watching chaps make absolute arses of themselves. No. I can’t, I can’t elaborate.
CB: Is it frustrating training novices?
KW: Yes.
CB: And —
KW: Yes, it is.
CB: But CFS was learning how to train.
KW: Yeah.
CB: How to do the assessments and training.
KW: You only, only sat at CFS for six months, or five, six months and then you go and train and I certainly didn’t like saying to a chap, ‘I’m sorry but you’re never going to make a pilot.’ Taking the rug from under his feet. I never liked that. And knowing, knowing that the chap had not much natural ability made the effort of flying with him that much greater and no, I didn’t like it. Preferred to be on my own.
CB: But you stayed there quite a while before you moved on, didn’t you?
KW: No.
CB: Did you?
KW: No. I stayed for five months course and then I went to Syerston and I was there for about eighteen months I suppose. And from —
CB: What were you doing there?
KW: Well, that’s Flying Training School. And from there I, I was made an examiner so I used to fly around all the schools. So, I didn’t like doing that either. Its surprising I stayed really.
CB: What did they give you to go around the schools in?
KW: Oh, whatever. Whatever was flying at the time. All the basic flying training was a Jet Provost, Piston Provost [pause] Tiger Moths. All sorts of funny aeroplanes. We used to go around the clubs as well and fly with, because their Cadetships were given and we used to examine the instructors.
CB: This was for flying scholarships.
KW: Yes. For flying scholarships.
CB: Yeah. So, after that came to an end —
KW: Well, Staff College of course.
CB: 1962.
KW: Yeah. Yeah. And that was marvellous. I actually did feel, for the first time I think, part and parcel of the Air Force hierarchy. That’s a bad way of putting it. Felt I might have some chance of adding to the service. There was a feel, this was at Bracknell there was a feeling of, I don’t know [pause] it’s very difficult to explain. Families, we most of us lived in, actually in Bracknell. We were there for a year. Got to know each other extremely well from all sides of the Service. Got to respect them too. I thought it was, when they combined all three Staff Colleges together they’d, Greenwich, Camberley and Bracknell disappeared from the view. I thought that a terrible mistake and I had nothing whatever, I refused to have anything to do with what was going on down at [pause] What is that place down in Wiltshire?
CB: In where? Where?
KW: In Wiltshire.
CB: What?
KW: The School. The Combined School.
CB: Oh right. Now? Shrivenham now.
KW: Shrivenham.
CB: Yes.
KW: Shrivenham.
CB: Right. We’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
KW: Squadron leader. Wing commander level. The Army have always had a major level. If you haven’t been to Staff College by the time you are a major or while you are a major you’ve had it and the Navy have never taken Staff College seriously and they, they’ll send you to Staff College if they haven’t got anything else to do with you. So, the three Services have got completely different ideas on what —
CB: Yes.
KW: And I’m sure we had it right.
CB: At squadron leader, wing commander level.
KW: Yes.
CB: Yes.
KW: Yes, because when you’ve spent so much money training a Phantom pilot for instance you wanted to keep him flying for as long as possible. When he comes to the end of his flying, immediate active flying then that’s the time to take him away. And I do remember subsequently when I was commandant at Bracknell feeling that our job there was to take these super pilots from the squadrons, get their feet on the ground so that they realistically acknowledged the sort of desperate pressures that are on the Service. Money. Largely associated with money. And we had one very good flight commander, his name was John [Hough] I remember and after about two terms he stood up one day, he said, ‘I’m fed up of learning what we can’t do and what we can’t have. I want to know what we can do.’ And I thought, yeah. You’re absolutely right. We do want to know what you can do but you can’t do it until you know what you can’t have. And it’s this old dilemma. Do we tell them too much? Subsequently of course he and a number of others immediately left the Service and went to fly for British Airways. Anyway, I enjoyed my year at Bracknell and Pat enjoyed it too. What was next?
CB: So, it set you up well for your next role after staff college.
KW: Oh, yes that was, this, it’s actually interesting. In my day they used to pin what you were, where you were going to go when Postings Day came and everyone was excited about where they were going. They used to pin a notice on the board rather like degrees at university, you know. And I thought I really had drawn the short straw because I was down to go to a posting, a personnel posting job.
CB: You were a wing commander at this stage.
KW: No.
CB: Oh.
KW: No. I was a squadron leader.
CB: Oh.
KW: And I was a wing, a postings job looking after squadron leaders in several Commands and I thought this was disaster. I mean, this is, just precisely what I don’t want to do and it turned out to be absolutely super. I was working with a very nice, it was a hell of a grotty little office in, looking out over a block of flats in, in Holborn and I tell you nothing goes on in those flats that’s worth looking at. I used to sit there watching them. And I was with a very nice chap. He was posted, promoted and posted and in came what I thought was the worst choice in the business because it was, I don’t know if you ever knew John Nichols, he was the only chap who shot down a Mig in —
[pause]
CB: In Korea.
KW: In Korea.
CB: Yes.
KW: He was a glamour boy. He was, he was good looking. He’d got a DFC from shooting down. He came in and I thought, I’m not going to like you. And for the next nine months we did nothing else but laugh. I mean, he was, it was tremendous fun and at the end of that he posted me to command 23 Squadron. Lightnings at Leuchars. And I realised actually that if you’re immersed in personnel business it’s a small world. They all looked after themselves of course there and I was looked after very well. So, I did. I went up to Leuchars for two years and I must say that that was certainly the best tour of my service life. It was absolutely marvellous. Nought to thirty thousand feet in two and a half minutes, you know. Marvellous. From a standing start. Marvellous.
CB: Near vertical climb, was it?
KW: Yes. Yes. Yes. Had to be careful. Supersonic all the time. Supersonic. Not climbing. I mean, you had to be very careful about —
CB: Yeah. Overland.
KW: Overland and things.
CB: What was the great thing about the Lightning?
KW: Well, I mean just the performance. The performance was non parallel but the, I mean it was a bloody awful aeroplane to service them but it was super to fly and the serviceability rates were rather pathetic.
CB: Had a higher rate of engine fires than most planes.
KW: Yes, it did.
CB: Why was that?
KW: It did. Well, it, they had two engines. One above another. That had never been tried before. That’s to keep the profile low and of course it made the servicing very difficult and very often you had to take an engine out to change something like a cabin altimeter. Altimeter. That’s an exaggeration, you didn’t have to do that but little things could cause big problems. But it was super. Super flying. And I went from Leuchars to Gütersloh as station commander and they had Lightnings there of course as well. Lightnings and Hunters. But none of this time has got anything to do with Bomber Command.
CB: It hasn’t, but it’s got a lot to do with your career.
KW: Well —
CB: Because as a fighter man you wanted the ultimate in fighter aircraft, didn’t you?
KW: Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, of course.
CB: And, and when you were doing your Leuchars role what was the main activity there?
KW: Well, there was a great deal of intercepting of, of the Soviet aircraft coming, coming around. They were perfectly entitled to be there but we, you get in to this extra ordinary business of letting them know that you’re there and that you know that they’re there and that means the next time they come you’ve got to make sure that they know that. So, it’s a, it’s a never-ending game really.
CB: Yeah. And your ground radars are crucial to that.
KW: Oh yes.
CB: Particularly the ones in Shetland.
KW: Well, they’re not Shetland. They were. There were radars in Shetland but the three main control places were at Brawdy. No. What am I talking about? Brawdy. [pause] Neatishead. That’s terrible. I can’t remember the name.
CB: Boulmer, one of them, is it?
KW: Boulmer.
CB: Boulmer
KW: Boulmer.
CB: Yeah.
KW: That’s right. Not Brawdy but Boulmer. They were actually the two most important ones. Particularly Boulmer which was the master controller over and there was never any, any problem but one was doing an awful lot of fuel transfers and meeting up with the Victors from Waddington.
CB: How long would a sortie last?
KW: Sorry?
CB: How long would a sortie normally last?
KW: Well, how long is a piece of string? Seven, eight hours and it used to get uncomfortable on that.
CB: So, you’d be refuelled three times for that.
KW: Well, at least three times. Yes. Yes. And we used to do a firing camp at, in Cyprus. Flying out to Cyprus. The French were being as always as helpful as possible that they could be preventing us from refuelling over their, their soil so we had to go all the way around.
CB: So, when you were in Gütersloh you’ve got a completely new scenario there so what’s the, what’s the activity?
KW: Well —
CB: You haven’t got Bears coming down from the north.
KW: No. But you’re very close to the, the front line so you’re, we were the nearest airfield to the Soviets so we used to have refuelling aircraft positioned out there constantly practicing refuellings should we need it. We never, never got serious like it had had in the Vampire days. When they were shooting down Lincolns and things.
CB: Yes. Your challenge was to avoid going over the frontier, was it?
KW: Certainly, in Vampires it was. It used to be terrifying, you know because it was a very crude recovery system in those days and you’d transmit and they’d take a bearing on on your transmission and tell you what heading you should make to get to Gütersloh. And if, if it was 270 or anywhere near 270, you thought my God I’m over Eastern Germany. But we didn’t actually have any, any problems in those days. Looking back.
CB: Did the, did the Soviet Block put up their own fighters if you did that? Were they near the frontier or not?
KW: They, they would if we, we used to have exercises going down to Berlin, down the three corridors. Not I might say with Lightnings, and if we strayed either way they would put up aircraft but they never, I mean they knew it was a game and we knew it was a game [pause] And I loved Berlin. Berlin was, it was run on the German economy but everything that we had enjoyed was free to us so that, they had marvellous opera, a marvellous concert theatre. The CinC was part of the Kommandantura at the end of the war and so he had a house in Berlin to justify his position. The, the Army chap had a house and when I say a house magnificent houses they were too. And we used to go out there quite a lot from Germany.
CB: But you wouldn’t take the Lightnings.
KW: Didn’t take Lightnings.
CB: Was that because their manoeuvrability was restricted?
KW: No. It was because serviceability, the length of runways everything was agin it. No. We used to go up in a little old Pembroke which was very useful.
CB: And in Gütersloh then, what was life like there?
KW: Well, I used to take the visiting firemen around Gütersloh and say, ‘Take a good look at this. This is why the Germans lost the war and we won it.’ Because they had a row of hangars that were ideal for the ME109 era but were absolutely no good at all for the Lightning era. They had an airfield that couldn’t be lengthened but was too short for comfort for aircraft like Lightning like we were landing on. It’s an exaggeration to say short but it was not as comfortable as many of the other runways we landed on and there were all sorts of other things that showed that our planners in between the wars who planned these beautiful double ended hangars so if, if you had one sick aeroplane at one end it didn’t block the entire hangar full. You could wind the doors open from the other side. Well, they didn’t have that. If you had a sick aircraft at the front of your hangar you had to repair it or, or not use that hangar. And they had very small hard standings. So, we were very well looked after, between the wars. They weren’t.
CB: They just didn’t want to put money in to it.
KW: But I suppose they were building up at such a ferocious rate they wouldn’t. I don’t know.
CB: And how did the community get on with the local community at Gütersloh?
KW: Very, very well actually. The Gütersloh town itself was very wealthy. Even in my day it had the Claas agricultural machinery. And you see Claas —
CB: Oh yes.
KW: Machinery all around here. It had the Miele washing machine factory which is, gets top marks as a, as the best and most expensive washing machine and there was one, oh Bertelsmann, which is the largest book publishing organisation in Europe if not the world now. And we knew the bosses of all three and they were very good to us. Of course, out of our league in money terms but [pause] And Herr Miele, he was a lovely man. He, he was awarded an OBE. That was just after we left actually for his work for Anglo-German relations. He was a lovely man. He said to me, he said, ‘In 1936 my father he said, “Karl. Karl you must join the Nazi party.” And he said, “Dad why should I do it? Why do I want to join the Nazi party? I don’t want to join the Nazi party. I’m not joining the Nazi party.” He said, “Karl, one of us has got to join the Nazi party and its not going to be me.”’
CB: Pragmatic.
KW: And he, he also said at one stage, I mean this is a chap who was a multi-millionaire. He said, ‘I turned to my boss —’ He’d obviously got, right at the end of the war got a job at Gütersloh Airfield. ‘I turned to my boss, Sergeant Smith —' and Sergeant Smith was the, the quartermaster and he was Karl Miele’s boss. It didn’t last very long I might say. Yes. So we enjoyed it very much at Gütersloh. It was of course reputed to have been Herman Goering’s favourite airfield but then I think we would say that about any airfield out there.
CB: So where did you go after that?
KW: I went to the first course on the IDC courses. Not the, what the hell do they call the course now? [pause] Isn’t that terrible?
CB: What was the IDC? International something, was it? Defence.
KW: Defence College. Yes.
CB: Yes.
KW: But Imperial Defence College.
CB: Oh Imperial. Yes.
KW: But Imperial became a dirty word.
CB: Yeah.
KW: So, it’s a year’s course at Belgrave Square.
CB: What rank are you at this point?
KW: I was a group captain. And I did the course and at the end of it I was promoted and became, well after a short tour in, a very short tour in Whitehall I became an air commodore and was director of air plans.
CB: And before that didn’t you go to run the Royal College of Defence Studies?
KW: No. That is the Royal College of Defence Studies.
CB: Ah. That’s what it is called now.
KW: Yes. That’s right. That’s what it is called now.
CB: Right. Ok. So, in plans, was that interesting?
KW: Yes. It is the crucial air commodore slot in the Air Force there’s no doubt. It’s [pause] it was demanding but, but being at the centre of everything nothing was going on in the Air Force that I didn’t know about.
CB: So, this is strategy, equipment?
KW: Yes.
CB: Personnel. The lot, is it?
KW: Yeah. Equipment and the fall out in personnel from that of course.
CB: And from there that’s when you went to run the Staff College.
KW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So, having been a student before and then returned to be the director then —
KW: Commandant but —
CB: Commandant.
KW: Yeah. I did it for a year and I was very cross that I was taken out and sent to SHAFE for, to be Assistant Chief of Air Staff, Policy and Plans. I didn’t realise at the time but that is a key job in NATO terms and I think it was Denis Spotswood when he was at CAS who was determined to keep that job in the Air Force. Not to let the Navy or the Army or any other nation get hold of it and I think almost every subsequent CAS has has done that job.
CB: So SHAFE is Supreme Headquarters Allied Forces Europe.
KW: Yeah.
CB: So you’re tying together all the NATO activities.
KW: Yeah. In theory but of course what you’re really doing is, is wresting control as far as you can from the Americans. NATO is an American organisation understandably because they put the most of the money in.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
KW: But if you get a piece of string and tie it to all the American posts and shake it until all the non-American posts fall out you are still left with a coherent set up. The Americans could run it themselves. He was determined if we were going to have somebody in the policy and plans organisation that, and I only did that for a year and I was grateful because A it was very busy, B trying to understand the American system and it was all American system. It was really quite difficult. I used to say that if you took away all the Americans from the staff at SHAFE you would be left with absolute chaos because you’d got Greeks, Turks, French subsequently, not in my time but the Spaniards, Belgians but all rowing their own, hoeing their own row rather like the European union. But the Americans, they’ve got it under control. But it was —
CB: So is there a moral in that which is effectively you’ve got to make sure that everything clicks in with the American system.
KW: Oh yes. Of course. Of course. And one shouldn’t, they’re paying the bills —
CB: Exactly.
KW: One shouldn’t rile at having to do it their way. I used to say that when, when anyone comes into the Royal Air Force the first job any officer coming into the Royal Air Force their first job ought to be to go to SHAFE to see how the Americans do it. They’d ever complain about anything ever again. But that’s pretty naïve because it’s the Americans who are paying the bill so we’ve got to do it their way.
CB: So, effectively you were the sounding board were you on what was going on for the RAF?
KW: No. No. It was more than a sounding, less of a sounding board. It was [pause] it was giving respectability to an international organisation that actually didn’t have any respectability. I worked for Al Hague. Hell of a nice chap, Al Hague and I, I’d vote for him for president but I wouldn’t buy a second-hand car from him. They are tricky dickies these Americans.
CB: And what was their reaction to you in this role?
KW: Well, they were used to it. They were used to —
CB: Because you were an air marshal now.
KW: Yes. Well, air vice marshal.
CB: Vice marshal.
KW: Yeah. They were used to an RAF Air Vice Marshal going through. My predecessor Michael Beetham, he had done it. I think he was probably the first but they they’d got used to it and all the subsequent ones had done it.
CB: Because he was a blunt, opinionated, forceful sort of character Beetham. Was he?
KW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Wartime experience.
KW: Yeah. Yeah. He was a —
CB: Originator of the TSR2.
KW: Yeah. He was. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And it was a smooth transition to you in the role.
KW: Yes, I don’t think there was any, any dramas. I mean you say the [pause] had TSR2 basic, he was a fairly junior, o/r chap when the —
CB: Oh right.
KW: The TSR2 but I mean nevertheless they were very important roles they had to play in setting up but I don’t think you could say that he was to blame for what happened to the TSR2.
CB: No. No. No. I meant he was the originator.
KW: No. I think that’s exaggerating too. He picked, picked the baton up and ran with it and he ran very hard. Of course, he lived in South Creake.
CB: Oh, did he? Yes. Not ten miles away. So, after being at SHAFE then what happened? What did you do next?
KW: I came back to Training Command and that’s, that was interesting actually. It was at a time when the Hawk was coming in to training [pause] and Training Command embraced the factory side of, of what was Maintenance Command or had been Maintenance Command. So, we had a factory at Sealand up in Cheshire and we had to deal with civil servants and unions and things that was new to my experience.
CB: What were the key factors really in running Training Command then?
KW: Well, it’s a matter [pause] any training organisation has got to make sure the output is, is keeping in step with the requirement and I think they did alright. There never were, there was, there was trouble because [pause] shouldn’t really bring politics into it but you probably don’t remember but in, this was in 1978 it was towards the end of the Callaghan government and money was very very tight. People were queuing up to leave the Service and we, we had, I mean it’s bizarre really. We had waiting lists for people to rise to the top of the of the queue to leave the Service. So we had a lot of instructors, flying instructors who were themselves longing to leave the Service. And what a way to encourage youngsters to come in. You come in this dynamic force which everyone else is desperate to leave and we’re in danger of being in that spot at the moment for different reasons. So that was, that was a depressing time. And then of course Margaret Thatcher was elected and she, she would have lost her, well the Conservatives would, would have certainly lost the next election if it hadn’t been for the Falklands.
CB: Meanwhile you’d changed Commands, hadn’t you?
KW: Yes. I, I’d gone. I’d gone from Brampton in Huntingdon to Strike Command. And in winning the battle over the over the Falklands Margaret Thatcher was extraordinarily generous to us. That generosity lasted, I think, oh all of about two weeks but —
CB: So, how was she, how did this generosity extend itself?
KW: Well, you can have what you want. Tell me what you want. You’ve lost a Nimrod. Not a Nimrod, a [pause] Hercules. You’ve lost a Hercules. You must replace it. Well, we didn’t want to replace it. There were more, by then there were more important things to spend money on but anyways she was kind to us initially. And then we had John Knott and Michael Heseltine. Well, if Michael Heseltine had, well on the face of it he was a very powerful man in cabinet so if he was, if he had been as interested in defence as he was in Michael Heseltine he would have been a magnificent Minister of Defence but he wasn’t and he didn’t. He was only interested in Michael Heseltine and he is still only interested in Michael Heseltine.
CB: Yeah. Could we just take a step back? You joined as CinC Strike Command. Here is a link historically with the wartime activities of the RAF. To what extent would you say there was a consideration, understanding, admiration of what had happened in Bomber Command that might have been then transferred to later times? With V bombers for instance?
KW: Virtually none I would think. I was, I admired [pause] the Vulcan force was just about to be disbanded. It was equipped with bombsights, radar, that were suitable for the 1950s. It had not done any inflight refuelling training in the memory of, of any of the pilots and yet they, they organised, Michael Beetham at the helm organised this bombing expedition against Stanley which I was lost in admiration for at the organisation, the discipline, the [pause] well the way, the way it was organised. The whole operation was a magnificent example of airmanship at its best. I was very sceptical. I wasn’t, I didn’t think it was a sensible thing to do but it clearly was and it was done extremely well although I was CinC at the time the aircraft had been allocated to 18 Group and were being controlled by AOC 18 Group and CinC Fleet. So, I actually had nothing to do with launching the [pause] all I had to do was make sure they got what they needed to do what they said they wanted to do and that was the easy bit from my point of view. But to launch that number of aircraft. To get one aircraft load on to Stanley was really, actually even now it hasn’t been understood. I, I remember meeting, shortly afterwards meeting a French general whose name I can’t now remember who was a bit of a pain in the arse to us or had been in the old days. He used to argue a lot but he was a real operator. He knew what he was talking about and he said to me ‘Tell me —’ he said, ‘How far is it Ascension to the Falklands?’ So I said, ‘Well, it was about four thousand miles.’ He said, ‘Four thousand miles there and four thousand miles back.’ He said, ‘It is miraculous.’ At the same time some of our armchair critics were sitting being interviewed and saying, ‘Oh, yes, well of course that’s what the Vulcan was procured for.’ And clearly had got no understanding of what they were talking about but this from a Frenchman that did. Forget. General Forget. A great chap. So, I didn’t really have any operational control over those chaps. And I did have a slight contretemps with both Michael Beetham and the chaps who, who were flying it that I thought they should going, bombing from lower than they were going to bomb from but I think I was wrong in that they’d if you want to penetrate you have to have some downward movement. I don’t know. I’m —
CB: Certainly a tricky task.
KW: Yes.
CB: Then one of them broke his refuelling boom off Brazil.
KW: Yeah. That was inevitable really. Yes.
CB: Something would happen.
KW: Yes.
CB: Yes.
KW: But they’d set up Brazil to be used as an alternative and they’d done that very nicely. Particularly when at the time Brazilians were really on the Argentinian side. But I knew that if, if we lost a Vulcan it would be disaster. But they went through a very dangerous exercise and they did it very well.
CB: Then the aftermath of the Falklands was what? There needed to be better provision for air defence did there?
KW: No. I don’t think that was —
CB: In the Falklands.
KW: Oh yes. In the Falklands certainly. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was obvious we needed to know what aircraft were going in and out and that did involve some expense of putting radars in pretty inaccessible places. And I certainly was determined that we shouldn’t have fighters wasting their time if they hadn’t got the ground support they needed.
CB: But of course, as a fighter man you had the full understanding of defending the island.
KW: Yeah, but I —
CB: So, what did you do about airfields?
KW: Ah, well I’ll tell you the way that Whitehall works or it doesn’t work. They sent a man out to Stanley because they, they were saying that Stanley can be extended, there was no need for a new airfield and they sent a man out to Stanley who not only had never flown but he was an Army general, to tell us whether we needed an airfield. It is indescribable. Fortunately, he came back and obviously they’d got at him down in the Falklands and explained to him why in words of one syllable there was no possibility of extending Port Stanley Airfield to take the modern aircraft and they’d have to bite the bullet. It would be cheaper to bite the bullet and build a new airfield and this is what they did of course [pause] And little has been made of the reinforcements that we sent down with the Harriers to the Falklands. Once again, extremely dangerous exercise that the chaps had never tried before, never, never practised before, were never capable of practising before but which went actually very smoothly.
CB: This is operating from carriers.
KW: It’s getting down to the carriers in the first place and then operating from the carriers throughout the war.
CB: So how did that work? Getting the Harriers there.
KW: Well, they, they refuelled. They refuelled and landed at sea. I mean, I forget actually the detail precisely of where they landed but between, somewhere between the Falklands and Ascension Island.
CB: And this is all with RAF pilots.
KW: Yes. Yes.
CB: What would you think was the most memorable event in your time as CinC Strike Command?
[pause]
KW: I don’t know [pause] Well, I think actually the final success in the Falklands. Of course, we had tremendous problems with getting the infra-red equipment to be used on the ground by the Army.
CB: Is it target illumination?
KW: Yes. Yes. Yes. And to make sure that it got done in a useable state. That the Army were au fait with how to use it and B that it worked when it did. And right at the very end I do remember a bomb [pause] We were asking for reports of where the, where the, what the bombs were achieving and I remember one message that came back, “It’s gone straight down the barrel of the gun.” There was one gun that was holding us up. I think it was probably an exaggeration but nevertheless it got the message across that A the equipment was working and B they had better watch out. Yes. I think the relief of knowing that so much depended on it.
CB: So, then your final posting was just after that. So, what was the final posting?
KW: No. That was, that was the last one.
CB: It was after.
KW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So, then you took over as CAS. Chief of the Air Staff.
KW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So that ran from when?
KW: 1982 to ’85 and that covered the post-war period. So, I don’t think that’s any help to you and your Bomber Command.
CB: Just a final question on that. What, what did it feel like to be effectively in charge of the whole of the RAF having started at the lowest point?
KW: I don’t think it even remotely troubled my mind. I mean, it was —
CB: Because you had the political —
KW: Yeah.
CB: Liaison much more as you went further up the line, didn’t you?
KW: Absolutely right. And I, I’ve not met many politicians who I would allow across my front door. One or two marvellous chaps and one or two quite likely, unlikely chaps. I remember when I was commandant at Bracknell we had the Secretary of State for Defence was that man from Barnsley.
CB: Yes. Fred Mulley.
KW: No. No. No, not Fred Murray.
CB: Mulley.
KW: Not Fred Mulley.
CB: No.
KW: No. No.
Other: I should know. I’m from Barnsley.
KW: Are you?
Other: Yes.
KW: That’s terrible. You should. You should jolly well know that.
Other: I know.
KW: Anyway —
CB: It should trip off the tongue but I can’t remember it.
KW: It would trip off my tongue. Anyway, it’ll come when you’ve gone. But he came, we used to have the chiefs of all, all three Services and the Secretary of State for all three Services come down and talk to the Staff College and he was due to come down on one occasion. He, they normally had lunch with us and either spoke before lunch or spoke after lunch. He was due to speak after lunch and he refused to come to lunch and when we met him he was very bristly. He was clearly very, he thought he was going to be got at. You have questions from all the students. Thought he was going to be got at. But the, I forget what the first question was but it was absolutely marvellous and it set him off on a train and he was the best Secretary of State for Defence I had, I ever served because he was interested in defence. He, he understood that his job was to improve defence. Not to pare defence and get the money. What was his name?
CB: I got the wrong, I had the wrong political party just then. Yes.
KW: He was very very Labour. Isn’t that terrible?
Other: I’ll remember when I get home.
KW: Yes. But he was absolutely lovely. And we had one or two who were absolutely dreadful. And of course, the Sandys Acts, Sandys standing up at his, in Hansard now, ‘There’s no future —’ This is 1957, ‘No future in manned aircraft. Defence will be in the hands of the missiles.’ In 1957. And never heard of him being sacked. No. He was a marvellous chap. He was Winston’s Churchill’s son in law. Must be a good chap. What is that man’s name?
CB: Let me divert you then while you’re considering that.
KW: Yeah.
CB: Because the final point really is here you are working for the chief of, with the Chief of the Defence Staff so you’ve got the Navy, the Army and the Air Force all tying in together. How does that work?
KW: Well, under, under the scheme that the last war was run and under the scheme that the Falkland war was run it worked fairly well. But as soon as you appointed a primus inter pares you got people who want to show they’re in charge and, ‘It’s my ideas.’ And it doesn’t work. It’s, I said at the time that it was a [pause] I had a phrase for it [pause] To the effect that it was, it made no sense. Logically it was nonsensible because you, as a Naval officer know, are not and cannot ever be the Principal Naval Advisor to the Queen or to the government if you’re not CDS. But if you are CDS the only advice you can give is Naval advice. So, you must be able to discuss it. I was quite prepared to fight my corner for the Air Force and certainly sometimes of course you do get party lines crossed. But no, it, this was Michael Heseltine determination that we, we should have an enhanced central staff and its nonsense and it means of course now CAS lives down in High Wycombe. Don’t know where the hell the Naval chap lives. You’re not a team but it was, I don’t know why it was done frankly because Michael Heseltine refused to allow us to be even involved in the discussions.
CB: Of? Of major strategy.
KW: No. No. Of high direction of —
CB: Right.
KW: Of defence. Forbad PUS of the day from discussing it with us.
Other: Roy Mason.
KW: Roy Mason. He is the man. You are absolutely right. Lovely man.
Other: Yeah.
KW: Lovely man. I’d have him on my side fighting but he, he was so nervous but once his dander was up his dander was up and he was jolly good news.
CB: So, you retired from the RAF in 1985 you said, and you were then promoted.
KW: Well, that’s —
CB: Marshal of the Royal Air Force.
KW: Yeah. That’s —
CB: You were the last to receive that rank, were you?
KW: No. No.
CB: Craig, was it?
KW: No. I need, I need you to tell me his name.
CB: There was —
KW: Harding.
CB: Harding. Yeah. Just one other.
KW: One other. Yes.
CB: And when you came to retirement what did you think that you might do next?
KW: Well, I, I got a job with one of the companies which fell apart before I got the, got to the job. I was going to take over on Marconis. Do you remember Marconi turned belly up? Who was after [pause] Weinstock? I forget. Anyway, and I had got nothing to add to anything so I played golf.
CB: Very good. What’s your handicap now?
KW: I’ve, I’ve given up.
CB: What was it before you gave up?
KW: Eleven.
CB: So, you’ve done quite well.
KW: No. No. No. No.
CB: What was the highest handicap you had?
KW: That was the highest I ever had.
CB: Oh, it was. But you enjoyed it. That was the key.
KW: Yes, and it was, we had the loveliest course at Brancaster and I was playing with Michael Beetham. I was staying with Michael Beetham actually on one occasion and coming down the 18th fairway the Wetherby family from Newmarket were coming in and they had seven dogs. It was absolutely lovely. They were running all over the place. I think they had five whippets and two other dogs and I thought I’ve never been on a golf course that allowed dogs to roam where they like and I think it’s delightful so this is where I want to play golf. So, when I got back we were actually up here looking for a house to move in to and I said to Pat, ‘I’ve solved where we’re going to live. It’s here.’ And that’s what we did and we’ve been here ever since.
CB: How long was that?
KW: Well, 1984 we were, so it’s thirty three years.
CB: In anticipation of retirement.
KW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Very good.
KW: I I had no feelings that I had a battle to win.
CB: No.
KW: I would have liked to have earned more money but then that’s life.
CB: What would you say was in your whole career with the Royal Air Force what was your most memorable event?
KW: Event?
CB: Or what is your most cherished memory? Put it a different way.
KW: Well, I think actually being a squadron commander of a front line squadron was absolutely ideal and there at Leuchars we had a squadron headquarters in the old air traffic building which had of course the balcony and overlooking the airfield. And just over there was the Royal and Ancient Golf Course so we, we had everything that we needed apart from the good weather. The weather wasn’t all that good.
CB: Well, Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Sir Keith Williamson thank you very much.
KW: Thank you, and, I shall —
CB: For a most interesting conversation.
KW: I shall sue you if you use it for any purpose, nefarious purpose and I shall sue you —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Keith Alec Williamson
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AWilliamsonKA180115
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01:38:50 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
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Sir Keith Alec Williamson was born in in Leytonstone, Essex. Early education was at Bancroft’s School until bombs fell across the school. He was then sent to a grammar school in Market Harborough where he joined the Air Training Corps. On leaving school he became and aircraft apprentice at RAF Halton before gaining a scholarship to RAF Cranwell as a cadet. After he was posted to Germany to join a Vampire squadron. As the Korean war had broken out, he volunteered to fight and joined 77 Squadron of the Royal Australian Air Force flying Meteors. On returning to Great Britain, he was posted as aide-de-camp to the Commander-in-Chief (Home Command). After three years he returned to Germany as flight commander for 20 Squadron, flying Hunters. On promotion to Squadron Leader he became a qualified flying instructor at the Central Flying School and then an examiner. Then followed staff college before being posted to the Air Ministry. His next posting was to command 23 Squadron at RAF Leuchars which operated Lightnings. He subsequently describes life back in Germany as station commander at RAF Gütersloh. Further senior postings were to Whitehall, staff college and as assistant chief of staff at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE). After commanding Support Command and then Strike Command his final posting was as Chief of Air Staff before retiring in 1985 as Marshall of the Royal Air Force.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
Germany
Germany--Gütersloh
Korea
Belgium
Belgium--Mons
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
20 Squadron
23 Squadron
77 Squadron
bombing
Meteor
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halton
RAF Leuchars
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/11703/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/11703/AStockerEE150731.1.mp3
1ba2b80b055698b24ec2f4ad054d8be7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: Tell us about yourself, Ted. Who you are and how got joining the Air Force?
TS: Oh, dear me. My name is Edward Ernest Stocker but for brevity call me Ted Stocker. I was born in August 1922 and I joined the Air Force at the age of fifteen in January 1938. I became, I went to Halton and became one of the Trenchard Brats. And from then on I was in the Air Force and life took it’s natural course with the war on.
[recording paused]
AP: On, on the aircraft. If you could talk a little bit about that, please.
TS: I started off as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. The Halifax really did need a flight engineer because the aircraft was originally designed to bomb Germany from advanced bases in France. The idea, before we really got into operations was we’d bomb, although you got our bombs in England then flew to France, refuelled so that we could reach Germany. Of course, when a little thing like Dunkirk arrived it was no longer feasible. So they modified the aircraft. Added extra fuel tanks. Eventually we had four fuel tanks in the Halifax. They kept squeezing little tanks in all over the place. And at the end of the time we had seven tanks on each side. And the management of those fuel tanks to keep the centre of gravity where it belonged and to ensure that they didn’t run out of fuel at an inappropriate moment kept the flight engineer extremely busy. That was great. But that’s how the Halifax developed and that’s how the duties of the flight engineer developed. Very much looking at fuel and obviously watching the engine instruments. Looking for any unfortunate things. The Halifax had very early Merlins. Merlin engines. Which were subject to internal coolant leaks which often resulted in having to switch the engine off. This again was the duty of the flight engineer to watch for this. When we changed over to the Lancasters only I did forty seven trips on Halifaxes. When we changed over to the Lancaster it was a whole different ball game. Now we had only four main tanks. Two in each wing and a little tank. Fuel management was simple and straightforward. The engines were Packard built Merlins which were not, they had a revised design of the engine cylinder block which reduced the chance of internal glycol leaks. So we didn’t have the trouble with the engine overheating or having to shut the engine down. The Lancaster was a whole better ball game. But so much so that on the Lancaster really the flight engineer was not fully occupied. Apart from being, acting as a cheap co-pilot. Remember, it takes a lot of time and money to train a co-pilot. You can get a flight engineer for a much lower price. Put him in the right hand seat. He can act as the co-pilot anyway. And that’s really how the flight engineers role developed.
[recording paused]
TS: But when you get on to the Lancasters where there isn’t the problems with the engines that we had on the Halifax the flight engineer was not as fully occupied. And Don Bennett, the chief of Pathfinders, Air Vice Marshall DCT Bennett had said that he wanted two navigators on a nav table and the flight engineers — he can still learn to drop the bombs. And so, on Pathfinders the flight engineer ended up very much as being both the flight engineer, and co-pilot and bomb aimer all wrapped into one. But there was duties spread through the flight. That made the flight engineer’s job much more interesting. Dropping, aiming bombs, particularly when you got on to flying with master bombers where you were putting the markers down it was a much more interesting job than as it had been originally on Lancasters.
AP: So if we talk a little bit about the actual Pathfinding squadron and what they did.
TS: Pathfinders were that developed. I was, I didn’t, I joined Pathfinders the month they started. I didn’t do the first Pathfinder raid but I did do the second Pathfinder raid and I stayed on Pathfinders until the end of the war. And I saw the developments as they happened. As I say one of the early ones was getting H2S. We had a decent radar picture. The important thing, the techniques developed we ended up basically with three basic types. There’s the visual mark. Visual marking where everything was done by looking at the ground, aided by the radar of course, which was the straightforward one. Then of course we had the problem with cloud cover and a load of other [unclear] which was led by radar particularly when we got, when Oboe came in close range. Oboe markers can be put down from the UK very, very accurately. And when we were outside radar range we had to develop radar assisted bombing which was bombing through cloud. Which worked up to a point. The worst, the most trickiest one was when we had very high cloud. No chance of seeing the ground at all. And we’d use these sky markers which were flares which burst at a very high altitude and gave a false aiming point. Obviously if you’re aiming for something in the clouds, on top of the clouds, the bomb doesn’t know it. It wants to go underneath. It goes through the marker, carries on falling so the sky markers, as they were called were very tricky for the main force to use because they were aiming at something and their bombs were going to hit something else. They were the three basic types. There were various variations on those three. But basically you’ve got the visual marking, you’ve got radar assisted marking and you had sky marking. They were three basic types.
AP: Could you talk a little bit about H2S and Oboe? What they are.
TS: Oh, H2S was the, if you look at a picture of a Lanc you’ll see a bulge. A bulge underneath. That conceal is made of material which is, does not interfere with radar. A fibreglass substance. And inside that is a scanner going around painting a picture on a cathode ray tube of what it can see underneath. It’s a very crude form of television really. It shows the sea and the land as separate colours. It shows built up areas where you’ve got a lot of windows and things. Windows and roofs and the sloping of roofs deflects the radar and that gives a different sort of picture. But that was the H2S which we were very lucky. We were one of the first. Pathfinders had H2S before it was in general use. And the other one I mentioned was Oboe. Oboe is, was originally used for Mosquitoes because it depends on line of sight from the UK and involves the development of the system the Germans had used to bomb Coventry where you have radio beams. It was the British development. It was more accurate and involved the bombs actually being released automatically by the Oboe system. They were, the pilot flew down one radio beam and when he crossed the other beam the bombs were released automatically. It was extremely accurate. We’re talking in sort of a hundred metres radius. It was very very good. Unfortunately, the range was limited by this line of sight. The Mosquito was, because it was able to fly higher than Lancs ever could could take the Oboe bombing further into the mainland of Germany. Or France anyway. After D-Day they put mobile Oboe stations on the continent and Oboe was able, range was able to move forward. We did have Oboe in a Lanc on 582 Squadron. And I went on the first Lancaster Oboe raid with Group Captain Grant who was the squadron commander of 109 Squadron. The Oboe squadron. And we did the first Oboe raid over France from a Lancaster. I must admit I did not enjoy it because having put Oboe into the thing the pilot and the Oboe operator had to have their own intercom system but nobody else could use it. So, about a few minutes before the target, something like six or seven minutes from the target the rest of the crew were off. Off intercom. And you just flew straight and level to the target. Fighters coming in. Ack ack. So what? You couldn’t tell anybody [laughs] That’s the bit of Oboe I didn’t like on Lancasters. But it worked. Fortunately, I did the first one to prove that it could. After that I let somebody else come [laughs]
AP: And this, this is just marking. You weren’t dropping any bombs at this stage were you?
TS: No. We were dropping the markers. The target indicators.
AP: Dropping the markers. Yeah. Yeah.
TS: The target indicators. I should have explained. The target indicators were a giant firework. You had a, the shell of a one thousand pound bomb. Inside it were a can, little canisters which were ignited when the bomb burst and they put down coloured candles. They burst normally at about three thousand feet over the target. So there was the cascade of coloured candles falling from the bomb over, over the target area. Hopefully over the target itself. This gave the main force an aiming point. Something to aim at. A coloured cluster of fireworks. Well the, if they were put down by Oboe initially they were in one colour. To keep the marking going because Oboe could only operate one aircraft at a time over the target we were main, on Pathfinders, came over with different colour markers and tried to aim at the original aiming point to keep the mark alive for the rest of the raid. You’ve got to remember some of the raids took us twenty or thirty minutes. The Pathfinders job when there was an Oboe raid was to keep the initial marking going on the same aiming point.
AP: Was this particular colours? Did they use particular colours?
TS: Oh yes. Primary. Usually the main colour was red. The primary marker was so that the master bomber could say, ‘Bomb the red TIs.’ When we’re backing up we were usually backing above a green. And there were yellows used for some things. Because we also used markers on the turning points on the, on the way in. When you’re going into a target you don’t go straight in because the Germans can see which way, where you are aiming. You do a dog leg or something. Well, to mark a turning point we used markers dropped by Pathfinders on the turning point. And they were usually yellow or something like that. Not, not reds. And that was basically what those TIs, as we called them. TIs. Target Indicators. They’re just giant fireworks but they seemed to work and they were visible from a long way away.
AP: And while you were doing this you’ve got ack ack and night fighters and all sorts of things.
TS: Well, you do. They do try and distract you a little [laughs] The gunners are on the, on the ball the whole time. Swinging their turrets and watching for everything. Providing the fighters are seen and are not too close before you see them the thing you’d do, there was a escape manoeuvre.
AP: Yeah.
TS: Corkscrew was the usual. The standard procedure. If you got a fighter high on the port side you corkscrew port down. If it was up on the starboard you corkscrew starboard down. If they were low down you still did a corkscrew. The corkscrew is just you are following the path of the corkscrew which keeps the gunner, the enemy’s shot on a constant deflection shot. And what you are trying to do really is just spoil his deflection shot. The deflection is changing the whole time in to the corkscrew. Hopefully that happens to miss. Ack ack. Well, it comes and goes. If it was close you could sometimes hear it rattling on the fuselage.
AP: What about predicted flak? Predicted flak.
TS: Well, predicted flak is, most of it is over the target they try to talk about predicted flak. But once they got the course in to the target they start filling the sky on the run in with flak from all sorts. Sometimes it gets you. Sometimes it doesn’t.
AP: Okay.
[recording paused]
AP: Okay. About the camera now. Right. Okay. Go
TS: You asked about how many raids I did. Well, I did forty seven on Halifaxes and then I, that is because on Pathfinders you didn’t do a single raid you did a double raid of forty five. Well, being me of course I did a couple extra. But my odd career really basically goes back to my second trip. The first trip I did was in a Halifax to Essen. Which is a good starting point. You know. They don’t come much tougher. And that was okay except I came back with a view that how the hell did he know we’d bombed Essen? But that was because early on in the war finding a target was a hell of a hit and miss affair. But anyway, for the next trip I was put on a raid to go to Nuremberg in a Halifax which at that time we’d only got five tanks. And I got together with the navigator and said, ‘Well, how many air miles are we doing?’ Because when you start thinking about fuel consumption in an aeroplane well fuel consumption depends on which way you’re flying. If you’re going downwind you go a lot farther than you do upwind. So work on air miles. That’s the number of miles you go through the air. Anyway, the navigator gave me the air miles and I looked at the fuel load and said, ‘It ain’t enough.’ And so being a cheeky eighteen or nineteen year old flight engineer freshly promoted from corporal to sergeant I went up to the squadron commander. The squadron leader in those days, and said, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip.’ To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing.’ Silly lad. He believed anything. But anyway we were a little short on fuel. In fact we crashed nearer to base than anybody else in the squadron. We actually ran out of fuel about three or four miles short of the airfield and came down in an untidy heap. I had given an ETA, estimated time of arrival, of no fuel. And the navigator had given an ETA of when we should be at base. Well, the navigator had us at base about five, five, four or five minutes before I said we’d run out of fuel. There was a little matter of errors. I was right. We did run out of fuel when I said but we hadn’t reached base. It was just down there ahead of us. And when I said that we were going to run out two engines on one side stopped. One side stopped developing any power so I went down the back and put on the cross feed pipe which put, the empty tank was running the two port engines to supply fuel to the two starboard engines so we had four engines running for a moment. And the skipper, in his wisdom said, ‘It’s time to get out of here.’ Gave the order to bale out. Seemed sensible at the time. Well, it was sensible except the fact we were carrying a co-pilot who was a captain from Whitleys, the other squadron on the station and the Whitley is very poorly heated. So, if you fly in a Whitley you put all the full Irvin suit on. That sheepskin lined leather suit, jacket and trousers. And he was a tall boy. Quite a well-built lad. And so the first thing that happened when skip said bale out, the navigator lifts his table up, pulled the hatch up from underneath him, puts his parachute on and jumps. He’s gone. The wireless operator, Len Thorpe was underneath the skipper’s seat on the port side and he was getting ready to go. And this great big teddy bear of a man with his Irvin suit on, oh he didn’t jump out. He probably couldn’t jump with all that on top of him. And he sat on the back of the hatch and put his feet out. That was alright. And then he tried to put his head out but it’s a very small hatch. From my position in the co-pilot’s seat I could see his backside sat up in the air but he wasn’t going anywhere. So, I wondered what the hell we’d do. Len Thorpe, down there, he looks and he’s [unclear] he summed it up quite quickly. He pointed me to go back a bit. So, I had to move back a bit so that Len could get up on the top step. And then they jumped. He jumped. And two bodies disappeared out of the escape hatch. Well, my, because of the Battle of Britain the pilots in Bomber Command sacrificed their pilot ‘chutes to Fighter Command for the Battle of Britain and the pilots in Bomber Command flew with a observer type ‘chute which was a harness. There was a separate pack for the harness. For the parachute itself. And there was a stowage under the seat I was standing on which contained the pilot’s parachute. The flight engineer’s job, when the two have gone out or three have gone out the nose is go under that there and get the pilot’s parachute. Great. But I went down there. Oh dear. The elastics to hold the pilot’s parachute were not fastened and the pilot’s parachute must have been sucked out with everything else. It wasn’t there. So I went back up to the step. I’ve got my parachute on by this time myself. I go back and sit and said to the skipper, ‘Sorry. Your parachute’s gone.’ About that time all four engines stopped and so we were obviously going down. So I jettisoned the escape hatch over the pilot’s head so that he could get out and then I went back at midships where there was another hatch in the roof with a ladder up to it. And I, in fact opened the hatch and was pushing it back when we hit the ground the first time. And I was flung forward against this ladder and I found myself cuddling a ladder. We were in the air temporarily until we came down for the second time. And we slithered along a bit and came to a rest. So I go, with the ladder handy, I’m gripping it. Up on to the roof and there’s the skipper coming out. I think we might be the only two left. The rear gunner, he’s gone around the back. All he had to do was turn his turret around and jump. Oh no. Our rear gunner suffered from night blindness which is not a great help for a rear gunner. He couldn’t find his harness, his parachute anyway. So, he was still inside the fuselage looking for his parachute when we hit the ground. We didn’t know this of course. So, we got out. Skipper and I were on the wing and about to jump off and wondering about all these cows running and doing the war dance around the aeroplane. And a voice from behind us says, ‘Wait for me.’ It’s our rear gunner. He never did find his parachute. And so the three of us ran to the edge of the, edge of this field dodging all these terribly upset, terribly upset cows and got to the edge of the airfield. Got a little fire on each engine. Glycol and stuff. Nothing serious. As we were stood there, and then as I said we were very close to the airfield and two ambulances turned up. And then the CO turned up. He had a quick word with the skipper. He kept well away from me [laughs] and I think after that he’d got the idea that maybe flight engineers do understand a bit about aeroplanes. I’ll only say this. Many years later squadron leaders, our wing commander and squadron, and CO of the 35 Squadron in Pathfinders. I’m the flight engineer leader, a flight lieutenant and when the CO wanted to fly guess who he took as his flight engineer? [laughs]
AP: [unclear]
TS: But anyway we’d landed. We were in an untidy heap and this, of course this is, everything’s organised in the RAF. So there was a crash. Okay. Two ambulances turned up so because we hadn’t ,we were not really in walking distance of the base and so we go over to one of these ambulances, ‘Can you give us a lift back to the airfield?’ ‘No. I’m bodies only.’ ‘Oh’ [laughs ], ‘Catch the other one. You’re not injured are you?’ ‘No.’ I can’t lie. How am I injured? Eventually they sent out a guard party to look after the wreck overnight and one of those they, they, we got the driver out and he ran us back to the airfield. Another interesting thing is of the three blokes that baled out two of them ended up on the same train. The one had landed next to the railway, stopped a goods train and sort of, the driver said, ‘Well, what do you want?’ ‘I baled out.’ ‘Oh get in the guard‘s van. We’re going in to York,’ sort of thing. He goes a little bit further on. There’s another bloke waiting with a parachute waving. So he stopped, he said, ‘Your mate’s in the guard van.’ The other fellow hadn’t get a lift with the train but with the bloke with a car. He got back. Anyway, they all got back safely. The three got back safely. But that was my first endeavour. Rather gave me a reputation I think. Because the result of that I think was that when the Halifaxes were moved we were on the first Halifax squadron. When another squadron was going to get Halifaxes they had to be trained on how to fly a Halifax. The usual way was to take an experienced crew from one squadron, move them to the other squadron with one Halifax and they were to train the new squadron. Well, a good idea. So they got a squadron. 102 Squadron got, was going to get Halifaxes. And so they sent a qualified crew. Except I think the CO wanted to see the back of me. I’d only done four trips. I was not an experienced, but I was the flight engineer on the experienced crew that went to 102 Squadron. There I was. I had done four trips. I was on this new squadron teaching people how to, all about the Halifaxes. That’s how my odd career, career started. Because I was there and I was the only experienced flight engineer when the new squadron commander was going to do his first trip on the Halifax he wanted an experienced flight engineer. So, I went with him didn’t I? And when each flight commander wanted their first trip on the Halifax who was the flight engineer? So, and then I went down, down the list until I’d flown pretty well with every pilot on their first trip. And I was an instructor. Not what I’d intended to be. But anyway I ended up with a total of fifteen trips and Pathfinders started. Well, the Canadian crew, they wanted to go down, the Canadian pilot and navigator wanted to go to Pathfinders. They wanted to volunteer for Pathfinders. Their flight engineer didn’t and the silly bloke had talked me into joining him. So, that’s how I left 102 Squadron and went to, back to 35. On Pathfinders this time. That’s how I got onto Pathfinders. Okay.
[recording paused]
AP: The number of ops. Ops you did.
TS: Okay. Well, as I said I had done fifteen ops on 102 and 35 when I, this Canadian talked me into going to Pathfinders. So, I arrived at Pathfinders with just fifteen trips under my belt. I stayed on Halifaxes on Pathfinders until I finished my double, what was called a double mission. A mission is normally, for most of the main force was thirty trips. And then Pathfinders, when you volunteered to join Pathfinders you volunteered to do a double mission. A double mission was forty five trips. In fact I did forty seven on Halifaxes. And then I was screened and I went to the Navigation Training Unit of the Pathfinders and there was a bit of a problem on 7 Squadron. They’d lost the CO and a couple of flight commanders and all sorts of the top brass. They came to the Navigation Training Unit. They wanted a bit of strength back in 7 Squadron. I was asked to volunteer. I’d been screened for a couple of weeks by then. So I went back to, on to Pathfinders with 7 Squadron. The only thing was when I got to 7 is, well I knew before I went they were flying Lancasters. I’d flown in a Lancaster once. I’d read the book. So I joined 7 Squadron with no formal training at all having read the pilot’s notes. And I stayed on 7, on Pathfinders. Eventually did another sixty one ops on Lancasters. Giving me a grand total of a hundred and eight which is ridiculous. Nobody should do that. I don’t know how I did it. I know I changed, and I mentioned on 102, I flew with every Tom, Dick and every flight commander, CO and that gave me a number of different skippers. I then went back. Went on to Pathfinders and I did, I did, I think I did about thirty with this Canadian crew I went with. I did some odd ones. And then the turmoil started that they discovered 102 Squadron had put me up for a commission. Because they didn’t commission flight engineers early on. Because when I saw Wally Lashbrook, who was the instructor there called me in and said, ‘What do you think about taking a flight, a commission.’ I said, ‘Don’t be silly. They don’t commission flight engineers.’ He said, ‘Well maybe they’re going to. Would you? Can I put you forward?’ I said, ‘Yes. Why not?’ Well, actually, I did, I did ask him what he thought because I’m a Halton Brat. I went to Halton when I was fifteen. And the flight commander was Wally Lashbrook and he was a Halton Brat. So, on his advice I said, ‘Yes. Okay. Put me in for a commission,’ which led to the situation that I was on 102, I was now on Pathfinders. They didn’t know anything about commissioned flight engineers. I called in to the adjutant and he said, ‘They want you for an interview at the Air Ministry. What’s that for?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Wait and see.’ Anyway, I was on ops one night and I was due to go to Air Ministry the next morning. Okay. So, down at Graveley, which is very close to London. It’s in Huntingdonshire and the railway station not far away. So anyway I did the trip, came back. Went in the uniform. Changed in the barrack. Changed in to my best blue, had a wash and a shave and caught the train to London. Which meant I then had to go in for this interview with the Air Ministry. Okay. Well, I’d been up all night remember. And they called me in. And one of those looked at me and said, ‘Where were you last night, lad.’ So, I gave them the name of the target. After that the interview was a walk over [laughs] Anyway, so I got through all that alright and I went back to the squadron. Several weeks later I’m called, the adjutant called me in. He said, ‘I don’t know how this happened but you’ve been commissioned.’ I said, ‘Yeah. I thought I might.’ He said, ‘You’d better go and get a uniform.’ So, I went up to London to one of the tailors. Bought myself a uniform. Go back. I’m a pilot officer now. The adjutant, they called me in again, ‘We’ve only got a [unclear] for a flight lieutenant. You’ll have to be a flight lieutenant.’ So, I’d been a pilot officer for several days and back to London to get some more stripes on my uniform. So, I was rather quickly a flight lieutenant and I got a job. I was obviously a flight engineer leader. Which again meant me flying with all sorts of odd bods. Which again meant that I went over, way over the odds. I flew with people, I said there was Hank Malcolm the Canadian I mentioned. I did thirty trips with him. That was alright. Later on I flew with a Welshman called Davies. Came from Swansea. I did thirty trips with him. I say I did all these thirty trips.
AP: What about Cheshire? Do you remember Cheshire much?
TS: Cheshire was my first flight commander on 35 Squadron. Didn’t like him very much. Never did.
AP: And Lancasters. Any particular missions that you remember? Operations that stick out?
TS: Very difficult. I can’t remember where it was, but once over the Ruhr Valley I didn’t enjoy life. We came, I think we’d been to Berlin and on the way back we’d gone a bit off course. As far as I remember we’d lost an engine or something over Berlin. Probably this oil stuff. It started again but we got radioed, the distant reading radio compass was not — distant reading compass sorry was not reading very accurately and keeping on course had been difficult. And instead of coming from Berlin just around the corner of the Happy Valley between Essen and Aachen and cutting through that way had got a bit off course and found ourselves over the Ruhr. There wasn’t a raid on the Ruhr. Just us odd bods coming back from Berlin. And they did rather catch us in the searchlights and flak for quite a long time. That’s one of the worst occasions of enemy opposition where it wasn’t so much that we were being shot at and we were being illuminated by the searchlights. We couldn’t get out of the damned things for about twenty minutes. Dashing around. I thought we were never going to get out of that. But anyway, Hank put the aeroplane in all sorts of manoeuvres and we got out of it but that was one of the worst occasions. Not being bomb caught over the target but caught off course on the way back. That was always the danger. You, you expect to be shot at over the target but you try and avoid it on route there and back. We hadn’t on that occasion. That was one of the worst trips anyway as far as that.
AP: Any raids in Northern France and Holland? Any raids there with Lancasters?
TS: Oh just before D-Day we were doing all sorts of silly things. I had the, this disputed honour of actually acting as master bomber on one of the raids on a little airfield in Northern France. What was the name of it? I can’t think of the name at the moment. I was flying with a Welshman on this occasion. And they wanted, around about D-Day there were all sorts of little raids. They needed a master bomber on a very small airfield and they suddenly decided that the skipper’s Welsh accent would not do. So I was then told to do the broadcast over the target, drop the bombs and sort of encourage people to come down and bomb the target. Tell them what to bomb. The cloud base was low. We got down low. We could see the target. I got my markers on the target. Could I persuade anybody else to come down to do it? No. They were all bombing from way up. Not doing very well anyway. We lost two aircraft on that trip. But I was actually, I think the only occasion when a flight engineer has held the microphone and acted as master bomber and told them where to bomb. It was a, have a change.
AP: And all those operations that you flew. Did, I’m guessing you must have seen other aircraft being shot down.
TS: Yeah. Of course I did.
AP: I mean, one of the things to try and describe to people is what it was like when you were flying through all that stuff
TS: Oh well —
AP: And what you saw. What people said. What they felt.
TS: It was very difficult early on. You get the odd one. Usually they caught fire and went down in flames and some parachutes would come out. You hoped more of them did. Later on, when the, towards the end the Germans had developed this, what they called musical jazz. Which was the night fighters were equipped with upward firing guns in the top of the fuselage. At an angle. And they did not use tracer. The idea was to fly on radar low down where you couldn’t be, where there was less chance of being seen by the top gunner or the rear gunner. Come up below the aircraft and when they were in the right position climb fairly steeply and let their cannons into the belly of the bomber. Very good idea. We’d had it years ago. When I was at Boscombe Down many years ago we had a Boston which had been modified with [pause] like bomb doors on the top of the fuselage and the bomb doors opened and there were four machine guns pointing upwards. Just like musical jazz, and there were only three of these. And we never developed it but the Germans did. That was what, that was the one of the games the RAF definitely lost. The main advantage having, before I started flying as a flight engineer I’d been an ordinary fitter who wanted to be a pilot. And I was fortunate in my postings. I was posted to Boscombe Down. Which meant I saw far more different aircraft than most people when they came out of Halton. And I worked on many including the first bloody Stirling bomber. Four engine. They had a position for flight engineer. ‘It’s your aeroplane. You fly.’ That was how I learned, you know, start flying. But I didn’t want to be a flight engineer. I’d been trying to be a pilot. But I was only an AC1. So I saw the flight commander. He said, ‘You’ve got to be an LAC if you want to go on a pilot’s course.’ So I did the trade tests and I got passed it and I was an LAC. Good. Go back to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I want a pilot’s course.’ ‘You have to be an LAC for six months. Then you can come and see me again.’ Five months later, ‘Oh hello Corporal Stocker,’ I goes in, ‘You can’t be a pilot now. You’re too valuable. You’re a corporal fitter.’ ‘Okay.’ I’m working in the hangar one day and the flight clerk comes up. And he’s got an AMO. He says, ‘The flight commander thinks you might look at this.’ It was the first AMO asking, Air Ministry Order, asking for volunteers to fly as flight engineer. If you’re a corporal or a sergeant in the group one trade you can volunteer to be a flight engineer. I think the flight commander had a clue I might be interested [laughs] and so I went back with the flight clerk and volunteered. And a few weeks later I was on an air gunner’s course. And that’s how I became a flight engineer. I don’t know how I did it. But anyway the basic thing is I did chance my arm rather more than most and got away with it with a hundred and eight raids. How the hell I did it I don’t know but I’m lucky. That’s how it happened. My first flight commander was Flight Lieutenant Cheshire. Oh dear. What can I add to that?
AP: Yeah. But let’s, let’s jump to that. Up the Island of Walcheren. Can you talk about that raid?
TS: Oh, one of the most interesting raids. The war was nearly over but there wasn’t a great deal of opposition anyway and they wanted to sink — the Island of Walcheren at the mouth of the Scheldt was really guarding the entrance to Northern Germany. They’d tried to get across. Across. Been an unsuccessful attempt by the army to do a landing on the south coast of Walcheren Island. They lost a lot of soldiers. And then they decided they might be better to, for a frontal attack but they need to get the Hun out of the way. So, we were, I was bomb aimer with the master bomber. The master bomber was Group Captain Peter Cribb. He had been on thirty. He took over from Cheshire as flight commander of 35 Squadron way back in 4 Group. Anyway, he was the master bomber, I was his bomb aimer and we went over to Walcheren Island. Oboe had put down a marker on the seashore and we put, put another marker beside it. And then we were getting, I think it was sixty aircraft every twenty minutes. I’m not sure about that number. It might have been less. And we directed them on to the markers right on the seashore and we managed to breach the dyke. And the sea water went through and started flooding the Island of Walcheren. There was an ack ack battery on the other side of the town from where we were which fired the odd shots but we had some thousand pound bombs. A couple. Four or something. So between two raids the sharp turn to port and I dropped my four one thousand pounders in the vicinity of this ack ack battery and had the good fortune to watch the brave German gunners get on their bikes and ride down the Island in the middle of the lake. They left us to it. So, really it wasn’t, there was no real opposition there. But anyway, we carried on with all these little raids and gradually made the dyke leak and the island was flooding behind. The last raid, the last batch of bombers we were getting were from 617 Squadron. They had their Tallboys. They were really going to knock a hole in that dyke. Well, we looked at the dyke and the sea was going in. The skipper called them up and said, ‘Go home. We don’t need you.’ Which, for the Pathfinders was always a good idea because Pathfinders and 5 Group which were Cochrane’s favourite Air Force were not really the best of friends. Cochrane didn’t approve of Pathfinders and Don Bennett who ran Pathfinders didn’t really approve of Cochrane because Cochrane had never actually been on a raid. Our AOC, Air Vice Marshall Donald Bennett had been on a raid. He’d been shot down in Norway. He knew what, he knew the score. That made the difference. He had a different outlook. But actually that was an interesting raid and when I was working in Holland after the war we did, I did go back there with my wife. And we went and had a look, and yes there’s a nice little puddle where we’d broken the dyke and there’s a bit of sand around the edge and somebody has opened a café there. So we got somebody in business anyway.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Two
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-31
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE150731, PStockerEE1601
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:52:44 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Edward Ernest Stocker (Ted) began his service with the RAF as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. He came to the attention of his Commanding Officer on his second operation, having warned before departure that they were carrying insufficient fuel to make it back to base. He was correct and he describes how some of the crew baled out before their Halifax crashed close to base with he and the pilot still on board. He joined the Pathfinders force after fifteen operations and remained with the Pathfinders throughout the war. He compares the fuel tanks of the Halifax and Lancasters, discusses the navigation aids Oboe and H2S and the process of dropping target indicators for the main bombing force to follow. He completed 47 operations on Halifaxes and then volunteered for 7 Squadron on Lancasters, completing a further 61 operations. He was commissioned as a flight lieutenant. He speaks of encountering enemy opposition whilst in action, of witnessing aircraft being shot down and directing the bombing of Walcheren Island.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Walcheren
Temporal Coverage
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1944
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military service conditions
Oboe
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1134/11663/PSmithS1801.1.jpg
f94dbb60395c90067e51aab4f5d2c80c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1134/11663/ASmithS180725.2.mp3
6e885283915121698b10221dcfa7e7f9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Smith, Sydney
S Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sydney Smith (b.1934). She was a child during the Blitz and served as a nurse in the RAF post war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, S
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right. So I’ll, I’ll just introduce myself. So I’m David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs —
SS: Sydney.
DK: Sydney Smith at her home on the 25th of July 2018.
SS: Yeah.
DK: If I just put that down. Down there.
SS: That’s right.
DK: It’s that’ll pick you up. If I’m looking down —
SS: Yes.
DK: I’m just making sure it’s recording. Ok.
SS: If you look up behind me that’s a picture of me in the Air Force.
DK: Oh right. Can I take a closer look is that ok?
SS: Yes. Do.
[pause]
DK: Oh right. So, you’re a nurse there. And was this your husband then?
SS: Yes. That’s right. I had to leave the Air Force to get married.
DK: And, and was he a policeman?
SS: He was a policeman in the Metropolitan Police.
DK: Oh wow. So, lovely photos aren’t they?
SS: Yes. I think I would have stayed on had I not met my husband.
DK: Really?
SS: Yes.
DK: Was that, was that the thing? Once you got married you had to leave.
SS: Oh yes.
DK: The nursing profession.
SS: In those days, yes. You did.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I mean it went to the European court and then they said that you know females can be married.
DK: Right. Yeah. And I’ll just ask you then do you have reminiscences or remember much about the war itself?
SS: Oh yes.
DK: And can you just tell us a little about —
SS: I was five. I was five when war broke out and I lived a few miles from London. About eight or ten miles from London. And the Battle of Britain was fought over my head. And I saw a plane shot down and I saw people come down in parachutes. And it made such an impression on me that these young men were willing to sacrifice their lives for my future that when I grow up I’m going to do something for the Air Force. I didn’t know what. And then when I finished my nurse training I decided I would join the Air Force and do my bit for them.
DK: So, so what years then were you doing the nursing training?
SS: I was 1951 I started.
DK: ‘51.
SS: The nursing training.
DK: Right.
SS: And nineteen fifty — oh I can’t remember. ’56 I joined the Air Force.
DK: Right.
SS: Yes.
DK: And just going back to you remembering the war time do you remember anything after the Battle of Britain? Between then and the end of the war.
SS: Oh yes. I mean being a school child and —
DK: But were you evacuated then? Or —
SS: No. I wasn’t evacuated.
DK: No.
SS: Because I was going to be evacuated to America. I’ve actually got a newspaper cutting about that. And my mother was ill and couldn’t take me to the Centre where we were meant to be. And so I was going to go on the next boat and the ship I was on was torpedoed.
DK: Oh.
SS: And I think there were about seventy children drowned.
DK: No. Oh dear.
SS: And she wouldn’t let me go after that.
DK: No. No.
SS: So I never was evacuated.
DK: No.
SS: So I spent my schooldays, a lot of my schooldays when the air raids were on during the day was spent in the shelters which were long iron things. Iron shelters with and because they rusted, the sides and were covered with earth.
DK: Earth. Yeah.
SS: Yeah.
DK: And did you have those in your school then?
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: In my school.
DK: And can you remember which schools you attended?
SS: Yes. I attended Byron Court School. The whole of my time at Byron Court School was at that, and that was in Wembley.
DK: In Wembley. Right.
SS: Yes.
DK: So, so you’d have had a good view of the Battle of Britain then from Wembley.
SS: Oh yes. That’s why I said.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I remember the Battle of Britain especially.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But we, nights when the bombings and that sort of thing my mother would sit up with me and my brother and she, she said, ‘Don’t worry. Jesus will look after us.’ And he always did. And that’s what I remember. But my parents they first of all got an Anderson shelter. But Wembley has got a very high water table.
DK: Right.
SS: So it was always half full of water.
DK: Yeah.
SS: So my stepfather and my step sister used to go down in the shelter but my mother said, ‘No. We’ll be alright.’
DK: And can you remember the damage in the area? The bombings.
SS: Oh yes. I can remember those. I remember going out with my mother once with the baby in the pram with a big baby gas mask.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And strapped to the pram. And me with my, wearing my gas mask on the [unclear] and it was pouring with rain and there was an air raid. Daylight air raid. And they were dropping incendiary bombs all around. And every time we heard something come, you know the babies pram hood was up and my mother and I crouched by the pram and just hoped for the best. But we got through.
DK: So how many was in your family then? There was —
SS: Well, there was my father died when I was a baby.
DK: Right.
SS: So there was my stepfather and my, I had a step sister. I had a step brother in the Air Force.
DK: Right.
SS: He was already in the Air Force before the war started.
DK: So your step brother was quite a little bit older than you then.
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: That’s right. Yes. He was older than my mother too.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Yes. So anyhow my, no my stepbrother was fourteen years older than me.
DK: Right.
SS: My step sister was four years older.
DK: Right.
SS: And then they had two children and they were wartime babies.
DK: Right. Right.
SS: Yeah.
DK: And what did your step brother do in the Air Force? Do you know what he was?
SS: No. My stepbrother.
DK: Yes. Your step brother. What did your step brother do in the Air Force?
SS: He was ground crew.
DK: Right.
SS: Yes. But he did occasionally go up with, as a gunner.
DK: Right.
SS: In the planes. But he was in Aden quite a bit.
DK: Right.
SS: And he brought, he came home on leave and brought a banana and it was at the bottom of his kit bag and it was black. But we shared it between the five of us.
DK: So was that the first time you’d seen a banana?
SS: Well, since I was a little toddler.
DK: Yeah. So do you remember the, I mean you were very young at the time but were you, can you remember being scared or was it a real excitement?
SS: Oh, the first, the first time there was an air raid was near Christmas time and the sound of the ack ack guns it frightened me.
DK: Yeah.
SS: It really did frighten me.
DK: And that’s some, that fear you can still remember.
SS: Oh, I can. Yes.
DK: So did, did you see aircraft actually shot down?
SS: I did.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I saw one shot down. Actually shot down. Coming down the —
DK: Coming down.
SS: And I used to have nightmares afterwards.
DK: Really.
SS: And I said to my mother, ‘Did I see an aircraft shot down?’ She said, ‘Yes. You did.’ And I did see parachutists come out of a plane. But I didn’t see, actually see the plane come down.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And as children we used to collect all, you could go around after the runway and look at the bomb damage and that sort of thing. All these houses. These houses, and all exposed. You know all their private things exposed and all that sort of thing. And we used to collect shrapnel.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Oh, you know. Big. Especially the boys used to collect shrapnel.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the bigger collection the better. And all the drawings of course were planes dropping bombs.
DK: Really?
SS: Yes. That’s all the drawings the children did.
DK: So it was having quite an impression on them as children.
SS: Oh. Oh it was.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we had no care or anything like that. No counselling.
DK: No.
SS: No.
DK: That’s, that’s a more recent thing isn’t it?
SS: It is, isn’t it? Yeah. No. We were meant to get on with it.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And cod liver oil and orange juice. That used to keep us going. Cod liver oil was horrible.
DK: So you can remember the rationing then?
SS: Oh, I can.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Oh yes. And how, when anybody was getting get married we all sort of put all our points together to make a wedding feast and that sort of thing. When my birthday parties my mother used to get some plaster of Paris or whatever and ice a cake tin. And we saved up our sweet ration, put it under the cake tin and the iced cake tin was my birthday cake.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Yes. And the school lessons were sometimes in the shelters and —
DK: So you can, so it was quite a big shelter.
SS: Oh yes.
DK: In the school grounds then.
SS: It took two classes.
DK: Right.
SS: So there must have been about sixty or so children in.
DK: So an air raid could have been going on and you were still having your lessons.
SS: Oh yes.
DK: In the air raid shelter.
SS: Oh yes. And if there was an air raid warning during school time they used to ring the bell six times.
DK: Right.
SS: And if it rung six times. Beep. Beep. Beep. That was meant we had to line up at the door and then walk down. No running. No running. No talking. Into the air raid shelter. And one class would be one side.
DK: Right.
SS: Or one half of the shelter. And the other class would be in the other half.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the teachers at the door.
DK: So after the bombing of London and the Battle of Britain do you remember much about the war after that period?
SS: Oh yes. I mean, it was, it was my, our life. I mean it was just growing up.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And our life. We accepted it as war.
DK: Yeah.
SS: We didn’t, we didn’t know why but —
DK: Can you recall seeing our planes flying out to Germany?
SS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Lots of them. And we used to be aircraft recognition. I was quite good at it then.
DK: Yes.
SS: But I couldn’t remember now.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But oh, the Spit, or the bombers going over.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the Spit, and the Spitfires, you know.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Or whatever accompanied. The Hurricanes or whatever accompanying them out anyhow. I don’t know how they went but —
DK: And was it quite a sight to see then?
SS: Oh was it? Was it, yes.
DK: The planes going over.
SS: Yes. Well, hundreds of them just going over and over and over and I thought oh, you know, those men.
DK: So, and can you remember the war ending and how you felt about that? I know you’d have only been a child but —
SS: That was wonderful because we had street shelters in those days. They built these street shelters. My mother wouldn’t go in to the them.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But, and I wasn’t, and all the children were most of the children anyhow used to love to go up lamp posts and on to the top of the shelters. I wasn’t allowed to. But VE Day. I, well first of all let’s do the landing.
DK: The D-Day.
SS: At D-Day.
DK: D-Day. Yes. I’m jumping ahead a bit, aren’t I?
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I came home. We used to come home for lunch you see.
DK: Right.
SS: School dinners were only just coming in and we used to have to eat them in the classroom if we, so I came home to dinner and walked home. And my mother came and greeted me at the door. She said, ‘We’ve landed in France. We’ve landed in France.’
DK: Yeah.
SS: VE day. She was so pleased. So excited about it.
DK: So how would she have known? Would she have heard that on the radio then?
SS: She heard it on the radio.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yes. And then VJ Day. Well, we sort of knew it was coming. We knew it was coming but we didn’t know when.
DK: And after D-Day do you remember the Doodlebugs? And the —
SS: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And the V-1s.
DK: V-2s.
SS: V-2s
DK: Yeah. Rockets.
SS: My mother reckoned she saw a V-2. She was opening the curtains in the morning and she saw this thing come down like that. Ever so fast and then this loud bang.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And she reckoned she saw it.
DK: She saw it. Yeah. And do you remember the Doodlebugs as well?
SS: Oh, do I? Yeah.
DK: The noise they made.
SS: Frightening. That was frightening.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Because when it stopped you didn’t know where it was going to land.
DK: And did any land near to your house at all?
SS: Not to my house. No.
DK: Right.
SS: But over the railway. There was a railway line in between. Over the railway line there was. And oh that silence. Oh. We were so frightened. It was the silence that really frightened us. It wasn’t the Doodlebug. The noise of the Doodlebug.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: It was really frightening.
DK: Just waiting for the explosion.
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yeah. So VJ Day was a wonderful day. It really was.
DK: Or VE Day.
SS: VE Day. Yeah.
DK: VE Day. Yeah. Yeah.
SS: VE Day. And I remember VJ Day too.
DK: Oh, right. Ok.
SS: Well, VE Day I was allowed on top of the shelter. My mother let me go up. And we, the children were allowed to stay up and play and then the next day all the ration points were collected and then we, we had them all and we had the street party in our street.
DK: Right. Yeah.
SS: And all that sort of thing. And it was really, really exciting.
DK: And can —
SS: And my step sister, she was then seventeen. She went up to London to join in all the celebrations.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And she fell pregnant.
DK: Oh [laugh] oh dear. Whoops.
SS: So there was a shot gun marriage later on.
DK: Right. [laughs] Ok. Ok. These things happen.
SS: They do. Yes.
DK: Obviously celebrating too much.
SS: But as a child I would go out to play in the summer holidays and things like that and nobody worried about me. And we’d all come home to dinner and I mean the Americans and everything but we didn’t worry about strange men or anything like that.
DK: No.
SS: It never occurred to anybody.
DK: So even though there was this potential danger as a child of bombs and everything you did have more —
SS: Yes. Well, if there was an air raid we’d run home.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And that’s it.
DK: But despite that you think you had more freedoms then.
SS: Oh, we had more freedom, yes. Well, there wasn’t, no cars on the road hardly or anything like that because petrol was rationed.
DK: Yeah. So do you remember the Americans then?
SS: Oh yes. I remember the Yanks.
DK: And what did you think of them?
SS: Oh, well they were over here.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yes, and yes if you got friendly with a Yank you could get chewing gum and my step sister got nylons and things like that.
DK: Right.
SS: That’s how, I think that’s how she got pregnant.
DK: [laughs] Was he an American then, was he? Or —
SS: I think so, yes.
DK: Yeah. Right. Ok.
SS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Ok. So, so the wars ended then and how old would you have been in 1945?
SS: Ten.
DK: Ten. Ok.
SS: Ten going on, just going on to eleven.
DK: Right. So, you’ve, you’ve experienced and you say that that then drove you then to the nursing side of things. Is that what you wanted to do?
SS: Yes. With the Air Force.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I was going to do something for the Air Force.
DK: Right.
SS: When I grew up.
DK: Right.
SS: And I carried that all the way through my childhood, adolescence and that sort of thing.
DK: So you qualified as a nurse first.
SS: I qualified as a nurse.
DK: Yeah. So how many years did that take?
SS: Well, that took, well I did two years orthopaedic nursing.
DK: Right.
SS: And I was an orthopaedic trained nurse. And then I went and did two years general training. But I didn’t do the midwifery part of it.
DK: Right.
SS: I joined the Air Force. I thought I’d join the Air Force.
DK: And your training. Was that under the NHS?
SS: Yes.
DK: So you’d have been one of the very early nurses.
SS: Yes.
DK: In the NHS then.
SS: Yes.
DK: So what year are we talking about now? Roughly.
SS: We’re talking of ‘51 I joined the nursing.
DK: 1951. So, not, not —
SS: As a nurse. As —
DK: Not long after. Not long after the —
SS: That’s when I did my training. Started my training.
DK: Right.
SS: ’51.
DK: And do you, you joined the Air Force in nineteen fifty —
SS: ’56.
DK: ’56. Right. And how many years were you in the Air Force then?
SS: Four years. Four years short term commission.
DK: Right. So can you just say a little bit about what you did as a nurse in the Air Force then?
SS: Yes, well —
DK: What your duties were.
SS: Well, first of all I went to Halton. Oh, it was a lovely place Halton then. It was countryside and it was lovely. And there we learned the basics of the Air Force. We learned how to march. That was a laugh to see. The poor flight sergeant trying to teach us how to march. And then, then on the wards we, the matron was [pause] I can’t remember her name now. Sorry. I can’t remember them. I’m not good at remembering now.
DK: Would her name be down in your recollection there?
SS: No. Not the names. No.
DK: No. No.
SS: No. Because you see since I’ve come here I’ve had sepsis and it affected my memory.
DK: Ok.
SS: So it is a shame really.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But it wasn’t.
DK: What was, what was the matron like then? Were they quite stern ladies?
SS: Yes. Well, they were group. Group officers.
DK: Right.
SS: And they were. They were quite nice. It was the CO’s inspections that I remember especially.
DK: So you actually held a rank in the RAF.
SS: I did. I was, I was a flying officer.
DK: Flying officer. Right. Ok.
SS: Yes.
DK: And, and were all the nurses flying officers then?
SS: Those that joined. But further then you became a flight officer.
DK: Right.
SS: And then you became a group officer.
DK: Right.
SS: And now it’s Group captain. You see.
DK: Because presumably then was it the Women’s Royal Air Force then or the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force?
SS: Princess Mary’s Royal Air Force Nursing Service.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok. So, it’s like slightly different.
SS: The PMRAFNS.
DK: Right.
SS: And anyhow, Halton was lovely where we did our basic training. And then I was posted to Nocton Hall. Nocton Hall was lovely. It had been a Royal, an American Air Force base hospital.
DK: Right.
SS: And it was all hutted wards and things like that.
DK: Right.
SS: And it was, Nocton Hall I did enjoy. At Nocton Hall I used to nurse. And one of the patients I nursed was Bobby Moore.
DK: Oh right.
SS: He was SAC Bobby Moore.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Robert Moore. And he’d hurt his knee playing football.
DK: Oh dear. It didn’t end his career though, did it?
SS: No. It didn’t, did it? [laughs] No.
DK: So do you remember much about him then do you?
SS: Not an awful lot.
DK: No.
SS: Except he was a very nice cheerful chappie.
DK: Yeah.
SS: In fact it was great fun nursing with the Air Force because they were all young men you see.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And they were all fit apart from knees or strains or something.
DK: Did you deal with any injured aircrew at all?
SS: Oh, yes. Yes.
DK: Do you know what they had?
SS: And one man he baled out at, I don’t know at a thousand feet. Something. More. And his parachute didn’t open. And he was alive with practically every bone broken.
DK: Oh,
SS: But he died soon after admission.
DK: Oh dear.
SS: Fancy getting [pause] it was awful.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And but mostly it was either flu or something. We had the bad flu epidemic when I was at Nocton Hall.
DK: Right.
SS: It was a very bad one. And we had one young man. Airman. He was flown in from Scotland to us and they tried to keep him alive and I was on night duty and his wife was on the way with, and she’d got a two year old and he died ten minutes before she arrived.
DK: Oh dear. Yeah.
SS: Yes. That sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But mostly I mean we, I nursed some Australians. ANZACs and things like that.
DK: Did, did you get posted abroad at all?
SS: Yes. Then after Nocton Hall. Oh, I must tell you about the fire escape because Nocton Hall has burned down, hasn’t it?
DK: Right ok.
SS: It has.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: And it was a lovely. We were in the actual hall which Ann Boleyn apparently had had and we shared rooms and there was just one big main staircase so fire escapes. And the fire escape that I should have had would have been in the bathroom with a rope. I had to let myself down on a rope [laughs] so I’m glad about that. I must have a drink.
DK: So you never had to use it then.
SS: No.
DK: So did you get on well with your fellow nurses then? Was it —
SS: Oh yes.
DK: Was there a lot of comeraderie?
SS: Yes. And the officers because we messed with the officers but we had our own separate quarters.
DK: Right. And what did you do in your time off? Where did you sort of socialise and —
SS: Oh yes. That sort of thing. Yes.
DK: Where did you go in your time off?
SS: Well, I mean we used to go to the, officers used to take us to Cranwell for certain events and things like that, or we went to Glyndebourne.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Oh, you know it was very nice. I was once the library officer.
DK: Right.
SS: I think it was Nocton Hall that I was at and I was library, in charge of the library in the mess and I introduced them to Ian Fleming.
DK: Oh yes.
SS: And 007.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: They were just coming out. Those books.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And they were very, I really enjoyed that.
DK: So about this time then you you’ve met your husband then.
SS: No. No.
DK: Oh.
SS: I didn’t meet him until I was in Germany.
DK: Ah right. Can you say a little about what happened while you were in Germany then?
SS: Yes. Well, we went over on a troop ship to the continent and the troop ship was fogbound and so it didn’t dock. We were supposed to have breakfast on the train you see. So lunchtime came and we hadn’t had anything to eat. And so they had to open the emergency rations.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we had hardtack and bully beef. And then it was later on in the afternoon when it finally had docked.
DK: Yeah. Can you remember where you docked now then?
SS: Yeah. Hook of Holland.
DK: Right. Ok. And where abouts were you based in Germany?
SS: Wegberg. I don’t know if you, well first of all I went to Rostrup.
DK: Right.
SS: Rostrup was, I don’t know it seemed to be a new hospital to me. But we had to close it, and all the things that couldn’t be transported were bulldozed.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And there was Germany bombed to the ground. In need of things.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And surgical things and all that sort of things and houses.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: So all the married quarters were bulldozed.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But because they were our, still our enemy.
DK: Yeah.
SS: We did —
DK: Did, did you get to meet many Germans while you were out there?
SS: Yes.
DK: And —
SS: And German, we used to have German civilian patients sometimes.
DK: And what were your feelings then because you’d not long gone through a war and now your meeting them presumably for the first time. Was there any bitterness? Or —
SS: Not with us nurses.
DK: No.
SS: No.
DK: Did you feel any bitterness towards them at all or —
SS: No.
DK: No.
SS: We used to think it was most unfair because we were still on ration and there were these fat Deutsch fraus in these [laughs] in these cake shops eating cake with cream on. Cream cakes with extra cream on.
DK: So they didn’t have any rationing then? Or —
SS: Didn’t seem to have. I don’t know whether they had but [laughs]
DK: So the only bitterness was the fact they were getting cake and you weren’t [laughs]
SS: No [laughs]
DK: Ok.
SS: [laughs] Yes.
DK: So —
SS: But it was the time then of the Berlin blockade.
DK: Right.
SS: They were, I mean they were even by air transporting coal to Germans.
DK: Yeah.
SS: The West Germans.
DK: Did you get to Berlin at all? Or —
SS: Yes. I did.
DK: Right. So —
SS: Once. I went with a friend in her car.
DK: Right.
SS: We had to get special. All sorts of special permissions and things like that.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we had to drive through West, East Berlin to —
DK: Yeah. East Germany.
SS: East Germany.
DK: Yeah.
SS: To get to Berlin.
DK: Yeah. The Soviet area.
SS: Without stopping.
DK: Oh right.
SS: If we’d stopped we would have been arrested.
DK: Right.
SS: So we had to go without stopping. And when we got there it was wintertime and there was forty, forty degrees of frost one day and everything was frozen.
DK: Yeah. So what was Berlin like in the, this would be the mid-1950s, wasn’t it?
SS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: Was it, was it being rebuilt then or —
SS: Oh yeah.
DK: Was there still a lot of damage there or —
SS: There was quite a bit of damage.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But we, I didn’t go on the U-bahn trains because I hadn’t got a pass into, behind the Berlin Wall.
DK: Right. Yeah.
SS: So we had to go, you know stay our side of it.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
SS: Yes.
DK: So how long were you in Germany for then?
SS: Two years.
DK: Right.
SS: And then I went. Wegberg was lovely because it was from, from Rostrup we went to Wegberg. And Wegberg was lovely because it was near the Second Tactical Air Force Headquarters.
DK: Oh right.
SS: And the Americans.
DK: Yeah.
SS: You know what Americans are like. They had a cinema. They had a swimming pool.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And they had all sorts of dos and that sort of thing which we were allowed to go to.
DK: Right.
SS: I was allowed to swim in the swimming pool and that’s where I got that little trophy. That little one on the side there [pause] That little dish. No.
DK: Oh that. Oh that one. Sorry.
SS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh. Oh right. So it’s RAF Germany 1959. Women’s Royal Air Force Relay.
SS: Yes. And I did the backstroke. And when I got back to the mess —
DK: That is a swimming, swimming trophy then.
SS: Yes. All these WAAF. Strapping WAAFs we were and three of us nurses, and we got that.
DK: So just for the recording then it’s a —
SS: Yes.
DK: Brass swimming trophy.
SS: Yes.
DK: And it’s got —
SS: Yes.
DK: The crest of the Second Tactical Air Force on it.
SS: Yes. Of course they were this —
DK: 1959.
SS: The nurses and that were listening on the radio. On the radio. Local radio. Their radio. RAF radio about this swimming gala you know. And when I got back over my door in the mess was this lavatory paper and it said, ‘Backstroke Syd, Wonder kid.’ [laughs] That was the sort of friendship we had, you see.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
SS: Yeah.
DK: And at this point you’d met your husband then have you or —
SS: Yes. He was corresponding with me.
DK: Right. Ok. And he was in the police force at this time.
SS: Yes, that’s right. Yes.
DK: So, he was in the Metropolitan Police.
SS: Yes. He was. Yes. And you see, my brother, my young brother he was a policeman. He was a training policeman and his, this sergeant, he said you know he hadn’t got a girlfriend. He pricked up his ears and he said, ‘Well, my sister’s in Germany. She said she’d like a penfriend. Would you be a friend? A pen friend.’ And that’s how we got. He started writing and then, and we corresponded and when I came home on leave he said, you know we became quite good friends. I went back again and [pause] yes. He proposed before I went back.
DK: Right. Ok.
SS: He said would I marry him? And I said, ‘Well, I’ll see.’ I couldn’t make up my mind because I didn’t really want to leave the Air Force.
DK: No.
SS: But —
DK: And before I put the recording on your said that once you married you had to leave the Air Force then.
SS: Yes.
DK: Yeah
SS: That was the end of my time in the Air Force.
DK: Yeah. So, so you had to make a choice then of whether you got married.
SS: Yes. That’s right.
DK: Or stayed in the Air Force.
SS: Yes.
DK: And as you say you would have like to stayed in the Air Force then.
SS: Oh yes. I would. Yes.
DK: That’s —
SS: Yeah.
DK: Very unfortunate. That wouldn’t happen now though would it?
SS: Oh, no. We had to go to the European Court for them to get it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. No. It seems, seems —
SS: And it, I walked, I go to the Aircrew Association because —
DK: Right.
SS: I did one casevac. I did a casevac.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
SS: Yes. It was a child and he’d had his tonsils out but he was still complaining of pain and his tonsils regrew. He had cancer of the tonsils.
DK: Oh.
SS: And we flew him out.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And we went in an Anson.
DK: Right.
SS: And there was thunderstorms all over Europe and we went up and it was lovely to go up in the plane and see these lovely clouds and that sort of thing all shining.
DK: So, he was, he was evacuated out of Germany was he?
SS: Yes.
DK: And where did you fly to then?
SS: We fly to, oh we fly to Northolt.
DK: Oh, ok. So he was evacuated.
SS: Yes. We went to a London hospital.
DK: Right.
SS: Yeah.
DK: So he was German was he? The child.
SS: No. No. The child was families.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Yes.
DK: So he was a British child in Wegberg.
SS: Yes
DK: A service family then.
SS: Yes.
DK: And you flew in an Anson to Northolt.
SS: Yes.
DK: Oh right. Was that the only emergency flight you had to do?
SS: I did one other but that was only a short flight.
DK: Right.
SS: Yes.
DK: So in the Air Force then did you get much opportunity to actually fly apart from those two?
SS: No. I didn’t.
DK: No.
SS: No. No. No. So, but I did enjoy it in the Air Force.
DK: So looking back then did you stay in touch with some of your nurse colleagues?
SS: I did for a time.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But I mean over the years.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Sixty, well nearly sixty years ago.
DK: And how do you look back on your time in the Air Force?
SS: Oh, I loved it.
DK: Yeah.
SS: I loved it. And do you know occasionally I do dream and I dream that I’ve been called back again but I haven’t got my uniform because I gave my unform to the Hendon Museum.
DK: Oh. Ok.
SS: The museum. They hadn’t got a nurses uniform.
DK: Oh right.
SS: So, I gave them my uniform.
DK: Do you know if it’s on display there at all?
SS: It was on display. I saw it years ago.
DK: Oh right.
SS: Whether it’s still there or not.
DK: Well, the next time I’m there I’ll see if it’s, if it’s there.
SS: Yes. Well, they’ve still got it anyhow.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Yes.
DK: Ok then. That’s marvellous. Thanks for your time. As we got to the end of your Air Force career I think that’s probably the best time.
SS: Yes.
DK: To stop the recording if that’s ok. But thanks very much for that. That’s been very interesting.
SS: Well, it was interesting —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Sydney Smith
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithS180725, PSmithS1801
Format
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00:33:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Hoek van Holland
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Description
An account of the resource
Sydney’s father died when she was a baby. Her mother remarried and had another daughter and son. The son became ground crew in the Royal Air Force.
Sydney lived a few miles from London and attended Byron Court School in Webley. She was five when war broke out and eleven when it ended. She remembered the Battle of Britain and hundreds of aircraft taking off for Germany. A lot of Sydney’s school days were spent in the air raid shelters. From an early age she decided she wanted to work for the Air Force. Sydney started her nursing training in 1951 with the National Health Service and in 1956 she joined the Air Force for four years short commission. She recollects her posts at RAF Hospital Nocton Hall, Hook of Holland and then in Germany. When Sydney married she had to leave the Air Force, which she loved. Her husband worked for the Metropolitan Police. She donated her nurse’s uniform to Hendon museum.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1951
1956
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Anson
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
incendiary device
love and romance
RAF Halton
RAF hospital Nocton Hall
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1108/11567/ASaintM180212.2.mp3
d50a04b190401f0290fb7cfb8961c2e0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saint, Margaret
T J Saint
M Saint
Meg Saint
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Margaret Saint (b. 1922) as well as her husband Trevor's flying logbook and his diary/memoir. He flew as an air gunner with 514 Squadron in 1944.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Margaret Saint and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Saint, TJ-M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 12th of February 2018, and we’re in Marlow talking to Mrs Meg Saint about her experiences in life and what she did in the war. So Meg, what are your earliest recollections of life?
MS: I suppose being a, a child of a miner in Wales. I can’t remember much about that, but we lived in a valley with slag heaps at the end of the valley but a lovely mountain. We had foxgloves behind us and being taken to school, when I was four, by the boys across the road, four brothers and I remember very little about that school, and when I was four my maternal grandfather found us a funny little house in the Cotswolds at Birdlip and we came to live there, a little two bedroomed house with three children. A mile from the village down a track and I went to school there until I was eleven, and then I went to the, the technical college in Cheltenham until I was fifteen. That was school.
CB: And what, what did you specialise- What, what were your main interests when you at school in Birdlip and then Cheltenham?
MS: I- At, at Birdlip?
CB: In Birdlip?
MS: Oh yes, well that was very countryfied and we had a lovely headmistress who was mad about Shakespeare, so I know most of the Shakespeare’s stories. But yeah, that was the village school, and then I did a commercial course at the technical college. That was interesting, but I think my father didn’t think I did much education there because I was captain of all the sports [chuckles]. So that was, that was that.
CB: What was your favourite sport?
MS: Well, I won the tennis cup every year I was there. I was captain of tennis, cricket, hockey [chuckles].
CB: Cricket as well ey?
MS: Yeah, cricket. Yeah, well in Gloucestershire we played- Women played cricket, great county for cricket.
CB: For women.
MS: So that was my schooling.
CB: Yeah, and what, what was the composition of the technical course?
MS: Well, it was a general- The three R’s, but then you did shorthand and typing and bookkeeping which was useful later on, very useful later on.
CB: And- So you left at fifteen?
MS: Yes.
CB: What did you do then? What, what was your ambition?
MS: I went to, I went to work for a publisher in Cheltenham, they did topographical work, but quite soon- 1939, I was invited to join the office of the RAF Volunteer Reserve and worked there, and when war really started, we were drafted to- What was the name of our- To the airfield-
CB: To Staverton?
MS: Staverton, yep and-
CB: What was your role? In the RAFVR?
MS: I worked for the CO’s office and had to detail the fire people and the people who- For the lights and things and one day I forgot to put the fire [chuckles] duty people, to put- Issue their orders and- So the aerodrome was a blazing light, so I got into big trouble. But, yes I worked in the CO’s office there, and worked there until 1942.
CB: But what were the main tasks? As the commanding officer, he was running the place but-
MS: General, general office work really and I did daily routine orders and personal report- What is it called? PR’s? Personal report things, and the first Fortress for America landed at- On that airfield
CB: Did it really?
MS: In the war, yeah.
CB: B-17?
MS: Yep, mhmm. Yes, so that was that.
CB: And what was the accommodation that you had there?
MS: Well, I, I lived with an aunt in Cheltenham.
CB: Why were you a civilian and not-
MS: Sorry?
CB: Why were you engaged as a civilian?
MS: Well, because I first of all went- Worked in the ordinary office of the RAFVR and you were just civilians working there.
CB: So, when you changed, to go to Staverton and work for the-
MS: CO.
CB: -CO, they didn’t change your status?
MS: No, no.
CB: Were you working for a private company in practical terms, or were you working-
MS: Airwork Limited.
CB: Airwork Limited right.
MS: And they, they still, they’re still running aerodromes all over the world, I think.
CB: Yes.
MS: Airworks Limited.
CB: Yes.
MS: Yes, worked for them right throughout the war until I got married in ‘45.
CB: So, they paid you-
MS: Yes, they paid us, yeah.
CB: And, did they also decide where you were to go?
MS: Yes, well, we had a choice when we had to leave Staverton, when it became military operated, we had a choice of three places where they trained glider pilots, and we were recommended to come to Booker and that was very successful, as- So that’s where- And we lived in digs, as you called it in those days, I came with my best friend I’d been to school with and worked with.
CB: Where were the digs?
MS: Here in Marlow.
CB: Right.
MS: And, of course at Booker we were training glider pilots, when it was in the EFGS, they had to do hard flying before they went onto gliders, and of course all the glider pilots were- They volunteered, they- For the special job, and they were from the army or any of the forces, really.
CB: And they, they were accommodated on the airfield, were they?
MS: On the airfield, yep, yes, on the airfield.
CB: Right, so they were all military people, but you were still-
MS: They were, either air force or- I don’t think we had any naval people, but certainly army people and RAF.
CB: Well, in those days the glider pilots initially were all army, weren’t they?
MS: No.
CB: Oh, they weren’t?
MS: No, the glider pilots were volunteers from the air force, or, or- Well, or they army, yes, yes.
CB: Right.
MS: Yep, that’s right.
CB: And what was your role there at Booker? Who were you working for then?
MS: I still worked, I still- I worked on the airfield which was lovely, so we used to see the boys go solo and we worked, worked for the chief engineer I suppose wasn’t it? On the airfield. That was very interesting[?] until a bit later, for my sins, the CO secretary left and I had to go and work for him which wasn't so much fun [chuckles].
CB: She didn’t come back?
MS: Sorry?
CB: She didn’t come back? So, it was a permanent role for you was it?
MS: It was a permanent job then, till I left in ‘45 to get married.
CB: Right, so you moved to Booker in 1942?
MS: That’s right, summer of.
CB: Summer, ok, and you’re soon working for the station commander.
MS: Yes.
CB: What was the difference between working for him and working for the man at Staverton?
MS: The engineer on the- Well when I was in the watch office, so that was interesting, very interesting.
CB: Before you took over with the CO?
MS: The CO, yes.
CB: How did you communicate with the flying people from the watch office? Because Tiger Moths weren’t on radio, were they?
MS: They used to come in and they- I can’t remember really. They had five station- The airfield, the different scot[?] would it be Scotland's[?]?
CB: Oh, did they? For different flights, oh right.
MS: Different flights, yeah, and we had so many incredible people who kept visiting Booker, being near London and everything, flying in but, I didn’t expect you’d be interested in that.
CB: Well, we’re interested in anything that was going on. Yes, thank you. So, in the watch office, what did you do in the watch office? ‘Cause that’s the pre, pre-
MS: I suppose it was- The boys used to come in with their [unclear]-
CB: With their log books?
MS: Some of their paperwork.
CB: Yes.
MS: And things, I can’t remember really-
CB: Ok, keep going.
MS: I can’t, I can’t really remember what we did in the watch office.
CB: No, that’s ok.
MS: But we were there for long hours too, and when they weather was bad and you have to hang about.
CB: Was there a shift time? Or a number of hours you’d do?
MS: We used to- We lived in Marlow and we had, we had the army truck come and pick us up to take us to the airfield, and I imagine we went about half-past eight in the morning and got back whatever time at night, but it was dark in the winter and late in the summer.
CB: Right.
MS: Yes, so that then- I worked there until 1945.
CB: Was it the same CO all the time or did that change?
MS: No, it was the same CO all the time there, I can’t remember his name, live in Pam Lane[?], I can’t remember his name. He was Wing Commander- Oh O’Donnell.
CB: Oh, he was an RAF man, was he?
MS: Yes.
CB: Ah right.
MS: Yes, Wing Commander O’Donnell.
CB: And he was a pilot?
MS: I don’t know what he was in the war, I can’t remember.
CB: No, ok.
MS: The CO at Staverton he’d been- It’s rather sad, because he’d been a pilot on, on the ships.
CB: Oh, had he?
MS: But he had to give it up ‘cause he had sinus trouble, he was a very interesting man.
CB: But he was an RAF man, was he?
MS: Yes he was.
CB: Yeah.
MS: Pilot.
CB: Yeah.
MS: [Coughs] ‘scuse me.
CB: Do you want to have a break?
MS: Yeah.
CB: We were talking about you in the watch office and the hours you worked. So what sort of hours did you work?
MS: Well, I, I just wouldn’t remember, but in, in winter it was until dark, when flying stop, unless I- When I was in the CO’s office and that would’ve been I expect normal office hours, and in the summer it was- If they were flying and they needed to go solo they wouldn’t just stop at six o’clock, they’d just go on till it was dark or- You just didn’t stop, like office hours, you just worked while you were able to do that, and being at Booker, near Bomber Command headquarters and Danesfield where the photographic place there, we used to have- They [unclear] a proper runway at Booker, but we’ve even had Lightning’s come in with really emergency pictures to rush to Danesfield on a motorbike to be processed, so it was really interesting there.
CB: This is the twin-engined American-
MS: Yep.
CB: -reconnaissance plane called Lightening?
MS: Well, it was ours, wasn’t it? A British aircraft?
CB: Ok.
MS: Yes, it was.
CB: And then the pictures had to be rushed off?
MS: Yep, rushed up to Danesfield to be processed.
CB: Right.
MS: It was things like that and lot- Oh and one interesting thing about Booker is that Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands learnt to fly there and I used to zip his flying jacket up for him, and his family lived nearby, they, they lived at Lane End.
CB: Did they?
MS: Yes. Been evacuated there, and his nieces used to do the tea wagon round the airfield.
CB: You mentioned people used to pop in?
MS: Yes.
CB: So, what sort of people?
MS: Silly I didn’t write it down.
CB: They would be people who were going to Bomber Command headquarters would it?
MS: No, no. Famous world people.
CB: Right.
MS: Oh, dear I've [unclear] now. Don’t know where I've got that, lost track of-
CB: I’ll just stop that for a mo. So just to clarify that there were people needing to go to Bomber Command who would pop in, but you’re saying that other notable people used to arrive in various aeroplanes?
MS: Yes, yep, fly in and to go to Danesfield, where have I got that? His aircraft used to fly in some times for urgent photographs to be transferred to Danesfield by motorcycle. On one occasion a Lightening aircraft landed, oh dear, not there. Oh, that’s a shame, isn’t it?
CB: So, they were being taken from the aeroplane for delivery?
MS: That’s right.
CB: For processing?
MS: By motorbike up there, yeah.
CB: ‘Cause they had to develop the film.
MS: Yeah.
CB: It’s interesting because the American unit was flying from Mount Farm which is relatively close as well, which is where they’d operate from normally.
MS: Oh right, yeah.
CB: Yeah, next to Benson which- Both of which are close to Danesfield.
MS: Yes, yeah. The war became very real to us when boys who’d been at Arnhem came to visit us. One of the boys who’d been a super dancer lost his leg, and of course many others lost their lives.
CB: These are the glider boys?
MS: C. A. Lewis, who’s a- C. Day-Lewis is a famous auther but there’s also Cecil Lewis who’s a famous author, and he was a flight commander, he was in the Great War flying those funny aircraft. He taught Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands to fly, and the tea van was manned by King Zog of Albania's nieces, not Prince Bernhard, it was that, King Zog of Albania who lived at Lane End and his family came here.
CB: Oh right.
MS: Got that bit wrong. Where else have I written down things about? Nope [unclear]. They’re in the flight office, yep.
CB: Did you work with any famous people in the watch officer? Or, notable people?
MS: Actually, in the watch office? No, but we got an awful lady who was in charge [chuckles] Miss Latham.
CB: Was she a civilian, or air force?
MS: She was a dragon and we didn’t get on very well together, but I expect that’s why she sent me to work for the CO [chuckles].
CB: The instructors though were all air force?
MS: Well, yeah, very famous instructors.
CB: Did they tend to be older people?
MS: Yes, I suppose they were a bit. One of them lived at Lane End and had a traction engine up there outside his house, but the- Yep, he- This chap, Cecil Lewis, he was- He’d flown in the Great War and he was a, a flight commander.
CB: Right.
MS: Yeah, got little, little letters in here.
CB: You’ve got the book there? So, he was too old to be on operational flying?
MS: Yeah, he would’ve been, yeah.
CB: Yes.
MS: Because he’d been in the first war.
CB: Yes, cause we’re talking more than twenty years later.
MS: [Unclear] writing books I should think, and I've got them here, gave them to me. It weren’t military operated as such, only the CO, and the flight commanders of course.
CB: Yes, as an airfield it was mainly run by-
MS: As an airfield it was run by civilians, by Airworks Limited.
CB: Right, so the engineers in the hangers, maintenance people, they were all Airwork?
MS: They were all civilians, as us office people, there weren’t any- Apart from the CO, he was the only-
CB: But the instructors-
MS: And the instructors, they were the-
CB: So how many instructors- There’d be quite a lot of instructors.
MS: There were four, there were four flights.
CB: Yes.
MS: Yeah.
CB: And all the instructors were air force?
MS: Yeah.
CB: Right, but all the ground staff were civilians?
MS: Were civilians, yep.
CB: Yes, and did- How did that work?
MS: I think it worked very well. There was such camaraderie in the war, everybody helped everybody in every way, you know, transport [chuckles], girls going to parties, we swap clothes [chuckles] if you hadn’t got any stockings, ‘Have you got any stockings? I’ll be very careful with them’, and it was so difficult not to- It’d- You were much better off if you were in the forces, you had your uniform and- But when you’re civilian’s it was jolly difficult. I know mum had to give me coupons for my pyjamas and things like that, and we were lucky ‘cause we had our main meal at the- On the airfield, and- But people who just had their rations, it- We didn’t kind of think about it, but they were- They had a problem. My parents lived in the country with a big garden and chickens, and apart from needing bread and milk they could- They were ok. But I didn’t know really much about the war here, we only had bombs down by the river and up the hill, killed somebody up the hill, but only- I remember about twice.
CB: This is Marlow?
MS: In Marlow here, well I was living here after ‘42. Yep.
CB: So the entertainment, that was set up, what- Was there a fairly active social life actually on the airfield?
MS: Yes [emphasis] we’d have dances.
CB: Right
MS: Oh yes, very exciting. Yeah, we had- But like, I would say I had a fun war really.
CB: But there weren’t WAAF’s as such on the station?
MS: No, we- No.
CB: Right.
MS: I don’t think we had any WAAF’s, there was- We had the RAF boys, you know, doing the flight, the flight- The CO.
CB: Yeah, and training?
MS: And the training people.
CB: So, there weren’t resident WAAF’s, so when the dances came, how did you rake up enough girls?
MS: Plenty of us girls right on, and the local girls from down here
CB: Yeah.
MS: Yeah, we- I think we used to have good fun really.
CB: Now, flying training can be dangerous, so were there- What- How were the accidents handled?
MS: Oh yes, I used to have to do those horrible, what are the called? P something-or-others, the accident forms. We had several fatal accidents, and we had a satellite place at Denham field as well, and one in Wales, near Llanbedr from Booker, yes, I'd forgotten all about that, you’re jogging my memory you see.
CB: So the, the training at Booker was powered training, the gliders were elsewhere? Is that right?
MS: Yes, we did- Yes, gliders elsewhere. Seem to have had a glider there at some time, but not for training. Wonder why we had those in the field.
CB: Where would you- ‘Cause Tame[?] they had glider training, where did you- Where did they new train- Newly trained pilots, where did they go to fly gliders?
MS: Do you know, I can’t remember, I can’t remember, I think we were No.3 EFTS at Booker.
CB: And what about medical facilities and other health-
MS: Don’t think we had- I never- I don’t think we thought about medical facilities.
CB: Didn’t have a, didn’t have a sick bay as such?
MS: I can’t remember one, or I can’t remember a medical officer really, I can’t remember that. No. Yes, it’s so bad I can’t remember these people who visited [unclear] famous people.
CB: I’m just going to stop for a mo.
MS: Not really- Oh, well we used to have the dances down here in Marlow, the dance hall is now- The Sea Cadets have got that place. Really, we only had things like dances, but we had those quite often, yeah.
CB: Ok, and what was the food like?
MS: The food at the camp was good, we used to enjoy that, but otherwise- Well, I mean we had our main meal there so we were the fortunate ones, but I don’t know about other people, the rations were very difficult. I expect- Well, people started growing their own vegetables and keeping their own chickens, so that was sensible really, but if you were in London, you couldn’t do that could you?
CB: No.
MS: Not really, no, so here in Booker- In Marlow, I think we had quite a comfortable life really, and not a lot of trouble. We could see London, the bombing in London, the sky lighting up but- Especially when you’re courting up in the hills [chuckles] and seeing, seeing the bombing there, but we did- Weren’t affected here greatly.
CB: One of the reported difficulties that WAAF’s had in the RAF was forging relationships with aircrew in Bomber Command particularly, with the variable expectation of their return.
MS: Oh well that- Most of us got married when we were quite young, twenty- Twenty-one, twenty-one, twenty-two. You didn’t really think about that because people say, like Trevor the flying, the flying people being scared, and Trevor said he was never scared, they were so busy doing their job, you weren’t scared when you went off on a mission, and I never- There was a film a little while ago and it was- They took you on a mission and it seemed so real and I thought god, I couldn’t imagine it would be like that, you know, with aircraft above you and aircraft below and the- Being fired at and the sky all alight and everything, it was an incredible film which I hadn’t- Don’t really think we thought about things like that.
CB: People just got on with things?
MS: Yes, just- Well, there was camaraderie that you- It was wonderful, that it can’t- I suppose it helped you because everybody helped everybody else, and you helped people out if- Of course transport was difficult ‘cause petrol was rationed so that was another difficulty. When you used to go home on leave and [unclear] and she had to get four miles from the coach from Oxford to Cheltenham, she had to get that four miles, when I went to Cheltenham I had to get- Wait for the bus to take me to the village, never- Where I lived at Birdlip and- So transport was difficult, very difficult. Had to plan those kinds of things. We all had bicycles.
CB: So, from a clothing point of view, you mentioned earlier-
MS: What?
CB: The clothing point of view-
MS: Oh yes that was very difficult, yeah.
CB: Could you go and buy clothes? But you had to have coupons?
MS: Yeah, I remember ‘cause you had to buy shoes, that was important, but we used to make clot- Make our own clothes. I know I did. Yeah, so clothing was difficult, food was difficult, and transport was very [emphasis] difficult ‘cause people, you know, they had to keep their petrol rations for things important, for themselves, so they- You couldn’t- Except that we- Where were we? Oh, it’s when I was at Staverton and when we were going to be moving from there, we had a lovely night out, the boys took us, somebody had got a car, we all piled into it and went off into the country using the last of their petrol, and another occasion I wanted- Mary wants to get back to- This is from Cheltenham, Mary wants to get to Cambridge, where she lived and because she was going there, I wanted to go and see relatives in Bedford and so some boys took us, but the car broke down half way and we left it there with the village boys who mended it and delivered it to the, the chap who was going to Cambridge as well. I mean, things like that, would you dare to leave your car with the village boys to repair it, to deliver it somewhere? These days, you wouldn’t do that, would you? I don’t think so. But, that’s the kind of thing that might happen.
CB: What about trains? Did you use trains much?
MS: Not- They weren’t any use from-
CB: Booker?
MS: Cheltenham to here, no.
CB: No.
MS: No, we used to see the boys off, got pictures of that, I wonder where they are, I had pictures of waving the boys off on the trains from, from Cheltenham VR, the beginning of- The very beginning of the war, pictures in the local paper of Madge and I waving the boys off on the train, wherever they were going, and I had a friend who was a boy, a Spitfire pilot and he got shot down over Sancerre[?] when he was twenty-one.
CB: What happened to him?
MS: Well, he, he was shot down, he died, he was killed, and I thought his name would be on the- What are big monuments here? Where- What’s the big monument here-
CB: What in High Wycombe?
MS: No.
CB: Runnymede?
MS: Runnymede.
CB: Yes.
MS: I thought it would be-
CB: Is he not at Runnymede?
MS: There were- But his name was- No, and Bob who our connection is, his wife looked it up on the thing and found that his grave is actually where he was shot down, Sancerre[?], I suppose they did that sometimes [unclear] bring them back, or perhaps there wasn’t enough of him to bring back or something, but his burial place is out there.
CB: Well generally, the fallen were buried where they fell.
MS: Is that so?
CB: British policy.
MS: Oh, I see.
CB: But the name could well have been-
MS: It wasn’t on that- On the monument
CB: At Runnymede?
MS: No.
CB: No.
MS: But Chris found it out and I’ve got a whole lot of writing about it.
CB: Yes, had you known him for a long time?
MS: A lot, yeah, well I would’ve called him a boyfriend, used to go to town hall, tea dances with him and things in the war, beginning of the war.
CB: So, how did tea dances work?
MS: Oh, they were lovely ‘cause they were in daytime and yeah, they were fun and there was one boy who had a white rat and he used to take it to the dances, you imagine what fun that would be at the Cheltenham town hall. Yes, we had good times.
CB: It was quite a fat rat?
MS: We had fun when we could but we did work very hard, life was hard, long hours.
CB: How did you feel about the loss of your boyfriend, the Spitfire pilot?
MS: Well, I was really upset about that because his mother lost her husband three months later and she soon died of a broken heart after that, her son of twenty-one, and when you went to the house there was one of his uniform jackets on the back of a chair, he’d left it there when he went the last time. It’s all very poignant really.
CB: And she died soon after?
MS: Yes, very soon after.
CB: Did you lose any other boyfriends the same way?
MS: No, but we were very close to a lot of them because if you go dancing, if you go dancing with people, you go dancing with them, you get very fond of each other and if they would be here- I wonder how long the course was at Booker, I don’t remember that, but it would be more than three months, wouldn’t it? If- An EFTS training time, you’d want at least three months to go solo, wouldn’t you?
CB: It was a seven-week course.
MS: Oh, seven weeks, oh right.
CB: Yes, so it was- They had seventy-two Tiger Moths and Manchesters at Booker.
MS: Really [emphasis]?
CB: And-
MS: Wow.
CB: And they trained one-hundred-and-twenty pilots on a seven-week course.
MS: Right.
CB: Which later became eleven weeks, this is just a printed over a brief-
MS: That’s fascinating, I'm interested in that. Yes, you got, you got very fond of, you know, each other really, and interested in your family life, and so it was very sad when they didn't come back.
CB: Of course.
MS: Like that boy who was the best dancer who came back without a leg, that was very poignant.
CB: What had happened to him?
MS: I can’t remember, he was a glider pilot.
CB: Oh, was he? Oh, he was- He’d been at Arnhem, yeah, right, a bit restricting when you want to dance with a prosthetic leg then [emphasis].
MS: I can’t- I don’t think we’d got to that stage.
CB: No, now what about going to the pictures, did-
MS: Oh, pictures was wonderful, that was your main thing, that was your main pleasure, well dancing and the pictures, and we had a lovely cinema here, very modern one, they did away with it after the-
CB: In Marlow?
MS: Yes, yeah, we had two cinemas but we had a very lovely, modern one and they used to bring films here to show them for the first time. Yes, that was really, big pleasure.
CB: What sort of films did they show?
MS: I can’t remember.
CB: But they tended to be a mixture of British and American, did they?
MS: I just don’t remember at all.
CB: No.
MS: Don’t remember at all.
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo, so you can have a drink of water.
MS: [Unclear] road, I can’t remember the details about that but I know that it was wonderful and he- We saw him again, but I don’t- Can’t remember whether he was a prisoner of war of whether he’d been posted a long way away, I don’t know.
CB: So, what was the reaction of people when he did return?
MS: We were all- He was very handsome, it was, it was lovely to have him back but I can’t remember what stage of the war that was.
CB: This is at Booker?
MS: Yep, yes, Marlow boy.
CB: So, this is a time of rationing, as we talked about just now.
MS: Yep.
CB: What did you do for breakfast and evening meal? ‘Cause you’re civilians and you’ve got to make your own arrangements.
MS: Well, we for a lot of the time we lived with a local family and, the wife was just a magician, she used to make lovely meals for us and made our breakfast, I expect, I expect we’d only have cereals or something, but she used to feed us as well as she could, she had two sons so- Younger than us.
CB: So when did you-
MS: Had to learn how to fire a 303 and I didn’t realise what a kick it had-
CB: [Chuckles]
MS: Did I have a black shoulder?
CB: So, when did you join the Home Guard? At Staverton, or did you do it at Booker?
MS: No, here in, in Marlow.
CB: In Marlow? Right.
MS: Yeah, Marlow.
CB: And what were your duties?
MS: [Chuckles] I can’t remember.
CB: On the river?
MS: Anyway, he was a very nice chap, I spent most of the, most of the duties with. But I don’t think I had to kind of stay on guard or anything particularly, but I had to learn how to fire a 303.
CB: How did you get on with the target?
MS: I can’t remember, pretty good at archery though later, and I still play-
CB: Ah, quiet assassin.
MS: [Chuckles] and I still do indoor bowling by the way.
CB: Oh, do you? Brilliant.
MS: Yeah.
CB: So how often did you fire this rifle?
MS: I can’t remember.
CB: I’ll look up by the squadron for the Spitfire man.
MS: My dad worked on the [unclear] on the prototype of the jet engine, Meteor.
CB: Oh, did he?
MS: My sister as well, until she joined the police.
CB: At Staverton? Was he based at Staverton-
MS: Yeah
CB: - or Gloucester aircraft works?
MS: Gloucester aircrafts.
CB: Yeah. What was your father’s trade?
MS: My dad? Well, he was a miner and then he- So, I- The engineering, I don’t know how that came into it, but he worked at- Because he’d been a miner, of course we had to move because it was the depression, twenty- I was four, ‘24, 1924.
CB: Late twenties, yes.
MS: In the twenties, early twenties.
CB: Well, ‘28 it really hit didn’t it? ‘29, ‘30.
MS: Yeah, here we are, disembarked in the wild somewhere, that’s when he came by coach and had the transport problems.
CB: What, what getting around anyway you mean? ‘Cause the busses were fairly limited as well.
MS: Well, they were, very limited, yes. I suppose it’s a lot to do with the fuel, wasn’t it? [Paper rustles] no, can’t find it-
CB: ‘Cause Marlow’s on the river, so did you get many boating trips?
MS: Oh, we didn’t used to go on the river much, Trevor used to row and he was at the local runners [unclear] but not really. We had our own little boat [emphasis], we used to leave- There’s a development down in Marlow now, Portland Gardens, and we lived there, right at the centre of Marlow for twenty-three years, and we were very near the river and we have- Had a little rowing boat, we used to take on pram wheels down to the river as a family.
CB: You mentioned earlier that you kept a diary, what sort of things did you put in it?
MS: Mostly, the fun things we did. September ‘44, a bright morning, Trevor called for me, Cadet parade plus their band. That was a Sunday.
CB: This is Air Training Corps cadets, is it?
MS: [Unclear] sorry?
CB: Air Training Corps cadets, were they?
MS: The cadets, yes, they- I expect so. Yeah, they would’ve been. Did enjoy the day. Then [unclear].
CB: [Chuckles] this is your husband-to-be, Trevor?
MS: Of course, there were some very interesting- Down at the bottom of, it says, we are in Holland exclamation mark, what does that mean? That was September ‘44.
CB: Well, there’s an area of Britain called Holland, which is South Lincolnshire.
MS: Don’t think it was that.
CB: Perhaps the tulip- What day- Time of the year? What time of the year was that?
MS: September ‘44.
CB: Oh yes, so it’s not the tulips, is it?
MS: Oh, I don’t- I really didn’t put things in about-
CB: It was probably a code-
MS: Not important things, no.
CB: No.
MS: Caught a train to Wales, to meet Trevor I suppose, no. Spent day by the river, bathing, cycled to somewhere. Yes, it’s only very personal things, really.
CB: Ok.
MS: Nothing, nothing-
CB: But important at the time.
MS: Nothing- No, I don’t, I don’t think I went into all that. No.
CB: Is a diary something you looked back on-
MS: Just-
CB: -in later years?
MS: -my own personal things.
CB: Yes, did you look back at it in later years?
MS: No, never look at it [chuckles]. Looking at it because you, you got me looking at things.
CB: Yes, ok. Stopping there for a bit.
MS: The accountant worked in the CO’s office, brook[?], and I suppose he would’ve been- Have some authority.
CB: Yes, I'm just interested at- If most, if most of the people were civilians, then the- Technically the station commander, wing commander in this case, wouldn’t have control over them directly.
MS: No.
CB: So, who was controlling the civilians Airwork?
MS: That’s very interesting, yes.
CB: But you said the senior person was the accountant?
MS: Yes, and Miss Latham, who was in our watch office, she- I suppose she would’ve had some jurisdiction.
CB: And she was a civilian?
MS: She was a civilian, the dragon.
CB: Yeah [chuckles].
MS: [Paper rustles] you might as well have those bits because-
CB: Now how did you come to meet Trevor, your future husband?
MS: By going on- Into the pub on a wet night which nice young ladies never did in 1942, 1943 probably, in a pub on a wet night.
CB: And who was in the pub?
MS: He was in the pub with a friend that- Shooting whatever what they- What these airmen-
CB: Shooting a line?
MS: Shooting a line.
CB: Was he?
MS: Yes.
CB: I can’t believe that for aircrew.
MS: Curly haired boy.
CB: [Chuckles] and what was your parent’s reaction to meeting Trevor?
MS: Well, they liked him, his parents were Christians, we were Christians and yes, it was very ok, yes.
CB: How did they feel about frequenting-
MS: Sorry?
CB: How did they feel about frequenting hostelries?
MS: [Chuckles] They would’ve been horrified, horrified in those days, in the early war, well the whole of the war time I expect, young ladies didn’t go in pubs, for sure.
CB: They didn’t beforehand but-
MS: Certainly not before, no.
CB: No.
MS: No, it was later on.
CB: So you met him the pub.
MS: Met him in the pub.
CB: Then what?
MS: Oh, and then it all went wrong ‘cause he wrote me a letter and sent it to the wrong address [chuckles] so I didn’t- We didn’t get together for some time.
CB: Oh, where did he send the letter?
MS: Sorry?
CB: Where did he send the letter to?
MS: To the wrong address in Marlow.
CB: Oh, I see.
MS: Yes, got the wrong road or something.
CB: Right, how did you get back together then?
MS: I can’t remember really. Anyway, we hadn’t- We had mutual friends, I suppose it would be through that really. Did you see our [unclear]?
Other: Lovely, isn’t it?
MS: It is very nice, we used dancing classes and went to about four and then I became pregnant, but we had been married seven, six years, so [chuckles].
Other: Ah, lovely.
MS: And I thought it was such a shame to miss out ‘cause dancing is such fun.
Other: It is, yes.
MS: And such lovely exercise and eventually I got him to, to come to dancing classes, that was that.
CB: And he picked it up ok?
MS: What, in about three months and then I became pregnant-
Other: And that was that.
MS: -so not long afterwards we had to give it up [chuckles].
CB: Right.
MS: I don’t think, I don’t think it was his scene really.
CB: Right, which isn’t for a lot of people.
MS: Yes well we- Well, in the village and in the war, dancing was one of the great pleasures really.
CB: Yeah, and most people could dance?
MS: They could, yeah, you’d dance when you kids, well, I was brought up in the village and village life is lovely, and dancing and that kind of thing is what we did, and play tennis with the village boys, that’s why I was good at tennis at school, because I'd be playing with the village boys.
CB: So, we were talking about you getting back together with Trevor because of mutual friends, so what happened there?
MS: Oh yeah, I can’t remember, I don’t know.
CB: Where was he stationed at the time?
MS: When I first knew him, where did he start off?
CB: Well, what was his role in the aircraft?
MS: He was mid-upper gunner, but before that he was waiting- He was- What was he? He was a lecturer at some point, oh that was after. He was waiting to go to Canada to be a pilot and he was at Ludlow under canvas in the mud, and somebody said, ‘We’ve got these air- These new aircraft, Lancasters, and we need gunners, and if you volunteer to be a gunner, you can be out of this in three days’. So that was it, he and his friend they volunteered to be gunners.
CB: It’s not an unusual story actually ‘cause there were occasionally blockages in the system, so pilots had to wait longer and some of them became gunners.
MS: Yep, yes, well that’s why he volunteered, got fed up with waiting to go to Canada.
CB: But nevertheless, you met him round here somewhere?
MS: Yes, I met him here in Marlow.
CB: ‘Cause he came from Marlow?
MS: Yes, he’s a Marlow boy, born here and he joined the RAF in September ‘41, went to Penarth, what are we talking about now?
CB: Yep, so we’ll just stop there for a mo. So, shall we, shall we talk about your husband-to-be, when he joined the RAF? So that was 1941, so where did he go? So, he started off at Penarth for that-
MS: Reported to Penarth, and- RAF Penarth, he wasn’t there very long, was he?
CB: No.
MS: And then he got posted to Bournemouth from there, didn’t he?
CB: Right, yep, yep.
MS: And after a few weeks, we were on a train again, this time going to Wendover to RAF Halton.
CB: Yep. Then he started training there for a particular reason, didn’t he?
MS: I don’t know, would that be [unclear]-
CB: So, he did an armourer training there-
MS: Yes, he was probably doing that just to begin with.
CB: Yeah. But it was to do with guns, rather than bombs.
MS: Yes, so I suppose to do with his air gunner thing, he’s already had some training, hasn’t he?
CB: No, no he hasn’t had any, he hasn’t had any bomber- Any air gunnery training yet, has he?
MS: No, just armaments.
CB: Yes, and it seems that he was then posted to Henley[?] for a bit and then onto Swinderby.
MS: This is incredible ‘cause it- In Spring ‘42 I was with a gang of armourers preparing Hurricane fighters, which had arrived in kit form in huge crates from Canada, amazing. Yeah, so that’s-
CB: So-
MS: When were they at Lords Cricket Ground?
CB: Mhmm, yeah.
MS: Y3[?] court.
CB: Yeah.
MS: By the zoo.
CB: Yeah.
MS: And then Scarborough.
CB: That was the initial training unit.
MS: Right, Heaton Park.
CB: So, he’s three or four months at Scarborough by the look of it.
MS: Right, and then to Heaton Park, where he met Dicky Bird from [unclear].
CB: Oh right.
MS: From the school-
CB: And this was in preparation to go to Canada?
MS: What’s he talking about Ludlow?
CB: Yeah, so this was in preparation for going to Canada.
MS: Oh, I see.
CB: But you said that there was a hold up-
MS: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: -in-
MS: Got fed up with waiting.
CB: - pilot training so-
MS: Yes, they were at Ludlow, in- As I recall, under canvas, in mud and very fed up with waiting.
CB: Yes, and so that got him- He unexpectedly posted there, as you said under canvas, ‘cause he volunteered for training as an air gunner I gather.
MS: That’s right, yeah, to get away from that. They could see that it was going on a bit.
CB: So, his gunnery training was at Morpeth?
MS: Yes, that’s right.
CB: What did he do from there?
MS: ‘Cause Morpeth was an OTU.
CB: He went onto an OTU?
MS: Operational Training Unit.
CB: That’s where he went onto. So, the gunnery school was Morpeth.
MS: Oh right. Why was he at Little Horwood?
CB: That was- That’s the OTU.
MS: Oh I see.
CB: So, he’s flying Wellingtons there.
MS: Right.
CB: So in his log book, it says he’s flying Anson-
MS: Oh yes, Wellington.
CB: - then Wellington.
MS: Right.
CB: And it would seem that he then went to Stradishall to the Heavy Conversion Unit, is that right?
MS: Oh yes, that’s right. Here it is. Not far from Bury St Edmund’s, the aircraft at Stradishall was short Stirlings, they were enormous four-engine bombers. Stirling wouldn’t go above fourteen-thousand-feet, and would only- Wouldn’t take the eight-thousand-pound bombs they needed to. About the crew-
CB: What did he say about the crew?
MS: The flight engineer and I made up, made the crew up to seven.
CB: Right.
MS: But he talked about them before I suppose. But, he-
CB: And then-
MS: Does he talk about the crew in there?
CB: No, it just- Has he got comments about the crew, perhaps at the earlier stage, at the Operational Training Unit and Little Horwood?
MS: Um, yeah.
CB: We’ll stop just for a mo.
MS: Somewhere he writes all about them-
CB: About what?
MS: But I don’t- About the crew.
CB: Yeah. The crewing up process?
MS: But I don’t, I don’t think that that would’ve been back here somewhere. Met up with others-
CB: Could you just start again with that, what was that?
MS: The normal procedure was to put all the different airmen in a hanger to sort themselves out, I didn’t have to do this as I said that I had met up with others straight away. Ah, the crew, Sergeant Wishart, pilot, Canada Dave Grey, the navigator, Thorburn, the bomber, Turner, wireless operator, Fairburn, air gunner, and myself. There was one more member, Cartright, flight engineer, to come later, we stayed together for eleven months.
CB: Right, long time.
MS: Yep.
CB: So the flight engineer would join- ‘Cause that was initial- Operational-
MS: Why would he be crewed up later?
CB: Right because the operational training unit had Wellingtons and they didn’t- They only had six crew, whereas the Stirling and the other heavy bombers would have seven.
MS: But when they came to the Lancasters-
CB: When the flight engineer would join. But often, an extra gunner would join as well.
MS: Oh I see, yeah, and Wishart we- He became friends, but sadly they all disintegrated but Wishart- Trevor’s father’s family business was in Queensway in London, and one day he was walking in Queensway and met Wishart.
CB: Really?
MS: He’d just been for a medical because he was flying for Italian airlines or something and they just bumped into each other, and he lived in a lovely house in Wales and his wife came to Halton to have an operation, so Wishart came and stayed with us while the wife was at Halton having the operation. Yes, I'm glad I've found that. Crew to seven [unclear] was nineteen, and at great delight to all the girls in Cambridgeshire and Suffolk, but he had a problem with air sickness and they had to cover for him all the time he was operating, otherwise they’d have got rid- You know, he wouldn’t’ve been allowed to fly. Stirling’s were huge aircraft with room for a billiard[?] table in the middle, the disadvantage was a short wingspan which stopped them flying high enough.
CB: Right. Ben is his grandson? Your grandson?
MS: Grandson, yeah.
CB: So how did that come about that he was telling the story?
MS: I think- Well it was Ben is younger as- There’s a picture out there, he was a teenager, might have been a school project or something, I don’t know.
CB: So, what did they do? They just sat down?
MS: Sat down and- Well there’s just a picture of them there with Ben and his mum, my daughter, and Trevor talking to them. I suppose Ben had asked him questions, I don’t know, I don’t expect- I’m not- Maybe I took the photograph, I expect I did, but I would’ve left them talking, probably getting the dinner at this time or something.
CB: Yes, it has emerged that many veterans found it easier to talk to their grandchildren-
MS: Yes, [unclear]
CB: - than to their wives and their own children. Was that an example of it, would you say?
MS: Yes, I would- You’re probably right there.
CB: How often did he tell your daughters about it?
MS: I don’t- They, they think he’s wonderful but I don’t remember him talking about the war really to them, not going back, you know, bit of history. No, I don’t remember.
CB: So many veterans wouldn’t, to their wives or anybody.
MS: No, no, for their own family, just the grandson pinned him down.
CB: [Chuckles]
MS: Yep. I-
CB: So what happened was, that he went from the heavy conversion unit at Stradishall on Stirlings, he then it appears, went to the Lancaster finishing school at Feltwell, where they converted from Stirling to Lancaster.
MS: Would they have gone straight onto Waterbeach?
CB: Then, they went to Waterbeach, yeah. So Waterbeach, then he went on his operations and those are in his log book but then separately there’s an intriguing diary type narrative of his, which covers a number of parts of his operational tour with 514 Squadron. Was that something you were aware of? Did he talk about his flying in the war? His operations?
MS: Not really, I don’t remember, I don’t remember.
CB: That’s not unusual. It’s just intriguing that one of the entries is 19th of May 1944, bombing Le Mans[?], the master bomber and his deputy collided, the master bomber was directing the main force over the air, in other words on the radio. So, by the time the flying training and then the full training and the operations started, then Trevor wasn't anywhere near you after the OTU?
MS: No.
CB: So how did you keep in touch?
MS: Well, whenever he could get away- They used to hitchhike, and he’d come home and- Ridiculous times and come home and if they- He was flying at night, so as long as he got back in time for the briefing, people probably didn’t realise he was away from the camp, so it was a bit horrendous if you were hitchhiking and had a problem getting back, but he- That’s how he usually used to get home. Quite frequently really, wherever he was is amazing, catching milk lorries and-
CB: Oh really?
MS: All that kind of- Yes ‘cause they travelled in the night, didn’t they? The milk lorries.
CB: Oh yes, yeah.
MS: Or got him to camp.
CB: And how did you keep in touch?
MS: By letters, used to write letters nearly every day to each other.
CB: And the postal system worked for you?
MS: For us, yes, yes- Not telephones, we hadn’t got telephones available like that, he certainly wouldn’t.
CB: He, he finished his operations- Operational tour with 514 in July ‘44, he then moved further away, didn’t he? Up to, to Manby.
MS: Oh yes.
CB: In Lincolnshire.
MS: Yes, yes, and we- I was living in- Near Ternhill, where he had been lecturing, no-
CB: That was later, was it?
MS: That was later.
CB: Yes.
MS: Yes, so that was further away.
CB: But when he was further away that was a bit of a challenge in itself.
MS: Yeah, well that would be letters, letters definitely.
CB: Yes, and at what stage did you decide to marry?
MS: [Chuckles] When we told his parents we were going on holiday together, and you weren’t allowed to do that in that- At that time, so, ‘Ok, if we’re not allowed to go on holiday together, we’ll get married’, and that was, that was it, and we got married three months later in a lovely little Norman church in- At Brimfield in the Cotswolds, and so-
CB: And that was on the? When was that? The date?
MS: 14th of June, 14th of June ‘45.
CB: Right.
MS: Yeah.
CB: And then did you get on honeymoon?
MS: We did- We couldn’t have a honeymoon ‘cause he was due back, but he didn’t go [chuckles] and luckily, he had a- He was absent without leave and he had a message, or a telegram saying that his leave was extended, and so it covered that, so he wasn’t in big trouble, so that was, that was that, but we didn't have- Our honeymoon was much later, we went to stay with friends in Cornwall. I still here from the family in Cornwall, although the parents are dead, our friends, their son is still runs the farm he- I had a card at Christmas. That was nice.
CB: In Cornwall?
MS: Mhmm.
CB: The war finished just before you were married-
MS: Exactly.
CB: - what was the general reaction? Your reaction?
MS: I think everybody was jubilant, except us because we knew that worse things were to come probably, so we weren’t doing any great rejoicing.
CB: So VE day was 8th of May 1945, what were you expecting to happen next? For his career?
MS: Well, he was still lecturing by then, wasn’t he? At Ternhill.
CB: No, he- Right.
MS: And so, yep.
CB: But he’d been up to West Freugh in Scotland
MS: Oh yes, so he had, yeah. Was that before or after Ternhill?
CB: So, that’s in the middle of ‘45, early part of ‘45, March to May when the end of the war occurred, that’s why I'm asking you the question really.
MS: He was actually here on the day that war- That- The actual day we celebrated, so- The end of the war in Europe.
CB: In Europe?
MS: He was here.
CB: But where were you expecting him to go next?
MS: I can’t remember.
CB: That was to the Far East, wasn't it?
MS: Yes, oh yes, we thought that was a possibility, that was on the books.
CB: Yeah. Were you originally planning- You said that you got married because of the holiday, were you originally marrying- Intending to marry when the war finished?
MS: Oh, we intended to marry, yes- Oh I don’t think we were thinking of any specific time, but we were engaged.
CB: Yes.
MS: Yeah, we were engaged to be married, so we said, ‘Ok’.
CB: Yeah.
MS: If we couldn’t go on holiday together, we’ll get married.
CB: Right. So, the war finished in August 1945, he was demobbed, Trevor was demobbed in the Summer of ‘46, a year later almost. What did he do then?
MS: He, he couldn’t follow the career he wanted to, but his father had a tailoring business in Queensway, London, making clothes for very important people like Sir John Betjeman and lots of film producers and the skaters, like Christopehr Dean, he made all his, all his clothes while he was doing Olympics and things, and so he- And had to join the firm and become a tailor, and it must be in his genes because, I suppose architects and master tailors, same kind of background, because they’d been tailors for time out of mine[?] and in the science museum in London there’s a sewing machine designed by Saint, so we think that it must be the same family. So that’s what happened to Trevor, and then he- So he became a tailor, his father died young at sixty-two, so he had to grow up, grow a moustache and look, look grown up and become a master tailor [chuckles] but he, he was very clever, he wasn’t a business man sadly, but he was an excellent tailor. Working all sorts of interesting people.
CB: What happened when he came to retire? What did he do? Did a member of the family take it on or did he sell it?
MS: Well, he- No, no. The, the premises in Queensway became so expensive and four of his staff needed to retire, so he stopped tailoring in London and he’d a coat maker in Hayes[?], another tailor- Not- Nearby and so he decided to work from home, thinking that it- He- Nobody would want his work, but he got more and more popular because people preferred to come here than go to London, so he then had a very busy time being a tailor, until he-
CB: With new premises? With premises here?
MS: At home.
CB: Yeah. Oh, at home?
MS: Yes ‘cause we had- The children had left home by then and we’d got a spare bedroom. So, we entertained all sorts of interesting people, like the skaters and- John Betjeman didn’t actually come here, but we used to go to him, and I've drive him around London in my vehicle. He was a wonderful character, John Betjeman, and various other people, yep. So quite a colourful [unclear].
CB: Well, I think we’ve covered a wide range of topics, thank you very much indeed. So, Meg Saint, thank you very much-
MS: Thank you.
CB: - for all your contribution.
MS: Thank you for coming Chris, and there’s a lot more work to done.
CB: [Chuckles]
MS: Having been a secretary, or one, I know how much work there- It entails.
CB: Thank you, brilliant. The thing I forgot to ask you, is about your family. So, what about your daughters?
MS: We’ve got- We were married for seven years and then we had Jennifer, who is now sixty-five or- Sixty-six, living in Cheshire, she’s got two children, and grandchildren, and another- Then we had another child, and- Within about two years of having Jennifer, and we went on holiday to North Wales and we had a hor- It was a horrible accident and we lost that beautiful little girl-
CB: Oh dear.
MS: I don’t think she was four, I’ll show you a picture of her.
CB: What was her name?
MS: Catherine, we lost her.
CB: Catherine.
MS: So, a little while afterwards we had another baby and- Elizabeth, and that’s a colourful life there, she runs the equestrian centre in Mustique in the Caribbean, she’s always worked with horses, she’s got four children who have all done incredibly well. So that’s my family.
CB: Super.
MS: We had a wonderful, we had a wonderful-
CB: This is why it was such a good get together.
MS: This was Christmas, three of the children are engineers and one’s in design, and Sam, Danny she does hotel management and she’s in Bangkok wait- Yesterday she flew to China to do things with a new hotel, and Sam has now got a job, he’s just got his degree, in Spain, and that’s his partner, and that’s- They’re partners, and Tom is absolutely incredible, he’s involved- He’s just finished his engineering course, but he hasn’t got his degree because he hasn’t handed in his dissertation.
CB: Oh, what a lovely picture.
Other: Isn’t it lovely?
MS: Isn’t it lovely, this is Christmas, we’re all together.
CB: Yes, isn’t that super.
Other: Lovely.
MS: Emma, Danny, Sam and Tom, and Tom, at university, he was with a chap who's invented something that’s gone- Just gone global and he’s involved. So, he won’t be handing in his dissertation at the moment.
CB: Oh right, no. Less important.
MS: I said, ‘Tom I don’t understand what your- What the thing is that you’ve done’, and he- When we were in Truro and it was the carol service at Christmas, first of all, the parents who in Mustique they arranged two cottages in Roseland, Cornwall, and all four children joined us, with their partners. You imagine.
Other: Lovely.
CB: Amazing.
MS: But- Tom’s magic thing is- When we were in [unclear] for the carols at Christmas, he said, ‘Granny, you see all those cables, we don’t need those cables’, so it’s something to do with that.
CB: Right.
MS: Something to do with- Magic to do with IT. The things that happen-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Margaret Saint
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaintM180212
Format
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01:17:30 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Saint was employed by Airworks Limited as a civilian office worker throughout the Second World War, and met her future husband, Trevor, an air gunner, who she married in June 1945. Daughter of a Welsh miner, the family moved to the Cotswolds following the Depression in the 1920s. Attending Cheltenham Technical School, Margaret became proficient in typing and bookkeeping. Upon leaving school she obtained employment in the office of the RAF (volunteer reserve) and when war broke out, moved to Staverton airfield, working in the office of the commanding officer. In 1942, Staverton became a military unit and Margaret moved to Booker, near Marlow. Here, future glider pilots were taught the basics of flying with powered aircraft. Initially working in the airfield Watch Office, before again being transferred to the commanding officer's office. It was here she met her future husband who was a local resident. Trevor joined the RAF in 1941, and following initial training was stationed at RAF Halton assembling Hurricanes that arrived in kit form from Canada. Having been selected for pilot training, Trevor became frustrated with waiting to be allocated a course and when offered the chance to become an air gunner, accepted. Once qualified, he served a full tour with 514 Squadron on Lancasters operating out of Waterbeach. Margaret enjoyed her time at Booker. Her social life was busy and only experienced a couple of air attacks. However, she was able to witness the sky being illuminated towards London during attacks on the capital. Being a civilian, clothing and food coupons were a challenge, and her fellow workers used to swop dresses for dances. Margaret left employment at Booker after she married, and Trevor demobbed in the summer of 1946. He joined the family business and became a master tailor.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Tilly Foster
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
514 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
control tower
entertainment
home front
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Halton
RAF Staverton
RAF Waterbeach
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1080/11538/APoynterAD180416.2.mp3
1c5073d8fccdac823474949f49be5141
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Poynter, Audrey
Audrey Doreen Poynter
A D Poynter
Audrey Bennett
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Audrey Poynter (b. 1926, 2008416 Royal Air Force). She served as a mechanic in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-16
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Poynter, AD
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: Ok, this is Nigel Moore for the IBCC, it’s Monday the 16th of April, 2018, and I’m with Mrs. Audrey Poynter [beep]. So, Audrey-
AP: That’s me, yes.
NM: Tell me about your life growing up, at home as a child and at school.
AP: At home I went to an ordinary everyday school until I was ten, I was then transferred from there to Hitchin Girls Grammar School, for which my parents paid a very small fee for some odd reason, I’m not quite sure but you had to. So I was there until I was sixteen, just normal education, although I was interested in various things which went on, we actually heard- ‘Cause we had a water tower at the school and we actually heard when France capitulated, so that was a bit of the beginning of my history of the war really, and then when I finished there I went to work in my father’s garage which was a Ford dealership and I learnt to strip an engine and replace it, as it was- Should’ve been, clean and working- In working order [unclear] and I also learnt to change tires and- Tractor tires were one of the biggest things I did. I was there until I was called up at seventeen-and-a-half, the actual day that I was entitled to be called-up, because I was an only child, my parents had to give permission for me to go into the service at all, and I didn’t have to get permission to go overseas, I wouldn’t’ve been allowed, and that was alright. Went on the day I was seventeen-and-a-half, which was a very cold day in February, and I first went up to the introduction place, the name of which I managed to have forgotten, it’s in the North, and it’s where everybody else went, where you got all your uniform and you got all your injections and so on. That was fine and then that for- Perhaps for a couple of weeks, I can’t remember the exact time, [unclear] so long ago. I then was sent down to the south coast, again for square bashing really, which is what I did there, and then transferred me from there to Halton in Buckinghamshire which is where I learned to extract a screw from measure and various other things, how to cut metal. In fact recently we went back and I saw a pattern of the thing like I’d done there, and he was so pleased to see me ‘cause he’d never seen anybody since and I went years ago, obviously, and then from then on, I was posted to RAF Oakley, which is in Buckinghamshire I believe, the county. I was then put straight away onto doing the Wellington repair- Slight repairs, things like changing brakes, I didn’t change an engine, nothing big like that, but one of the reasons I got used was because my fingers are smaller than the mans and there’s a- An instrument at the front of the, of the Wellington which needs changing and emptying out each time, and then you put it back and screw it back up, and the men didn’t manage the [unclear] ‘cause their fingers were a bit big, so that was- I was very useful for. Yeah, I did- I loved it, and I really [emphasis] did because it was right up my street because I had vigorously gone ahead with Fords, which- I mean basically, the basic principle is exactly the same, ‘Bang, sack[?] and squeak[?],’ we used to say [chuckles] bang, sack[?] and [unclear] for the type of engine. Ah, each time you did anything on an engine, on the Wellington, you had to go up with it afterwards, after you’d worked on it, wasn’t just me, any of the others that worked on it, had to go up and fly with it, make sure we hadn’t done anything we shouldn’t have, and it was a security thing really. I did not at that moment know that we were doing these because the New Zealand Air Force was there, they didn’t tell us that, I presume that was a secret, secret thing, that the New Zealand Air Force had come. Whether they were actual air force, presumably they were, but they came to learn to fly. I didn’t have anything to do with the flying, I only had to maintain the aeroplane, which I did for day after day, after day, after day, exactly the same thing, change the plugs, do the plastic things that are on the top, can’t think what you call them at the moment, where the- Yeah, plastic or paper, we had to replace those, and then we could put the cover back on top and that made a seal on the top, and this went on all the time. Now, the interesting thing was, from my point of view, I was by this time about eighteen, myself and Joan, who was the same age as me, she came from Epsom, worked on the aircraft with all the men, we were the only two girls there, the rest were men. We had a rather lively time, very nice, and they were very kind to us, only the sergeant whose name I think was Fox, Sergeant Fox, and oh dear he did swear, and I told him that I didn’t like his swearing, and he did stop, did stop [chuckles]. I was a bit naughty like that, and I’ve always told people what I think, and- Also, when we went round to see who was going to do fire duty, things like that, the corporal lady this was, she says, ‘What would you do if there was a fire?’, Bennet was my name then, corporal- Not corporal, ‘Cadet Bennet, what would you, what would you do?’, I said, ‘I would warm myself’, because by this time we were freezing [emphasis] cold, we didn’t have any heat, we didn’t have heating in the wooden huts which we lived in. That really was the basically thing that I did over and over again, over and over again, and of course in those days we called it the Wimpy as well at the Wellington, Wimpy being its nickname I believe, and then having been there for about a year, I was only in three-and-a-half years, so it wasn’t that much longer, I was sent up to RAF Disforth to work on the Yorks, and the Yorks at that time were really only using for transport, there was no fighting involved with the York at all. It was a very big, heavy aircraft, and on one occasion we were very pleased to receive the German prison- Our prisoners of war back into Britain, having been released from all their prisons over there. There were several hundred of them, I can’t remember exactly how many. One I know his name was Booth, which interested me ‘cause I thought it sounded like the Booth family, I don’t think he was anything to do with it, he was shot down on the first day of the war and he’d been there all the war, he was very glad to come home. But the others didn’t seem to know they were home, they seemed very confused and as far as we concerned all we can- Gave them was a wad, which is bun as you probably know, and a cup of tea, which seemed to me ridiculous as they’d been so hard up for food anyway, and they were covered in yellow powder to stop us getting the bugs that they’d- That was it really. I then carried on servicing the York as required until I managed to get pneumonia and pleurisy, probably because I was so much in the cold, I had to be in the cold, I also turned a car over privately which probably didn’t help. So, after I’d been in hospital for some time, which I was treated very badly, very well- Very badly, but in a way well. My parents were sent for, ‘cause I was so ill, I was given some of the first penicillin in this country, and that cured me, plus the fact that it was also used on the chap who got pleurisy then, he’d been there for months and he was able to go home in a fortnight, so I did some favours, and that really was the end of it, and I didn’t go outside anymore, they wouldn’t let me, I would much rather of done, I didn’t like office work much, but I did have to do office work ‘cause that’s what I was required to do. That’s really it, and then of course I was sent home.
NM: Ok, we-
AP: And I was home just in time for my twenty-first birthday [chuckles].
NM: Good timing, good timing.
AP: Very dull really.
NM: No, not at all, it’s actually- There’s- Must be a wealth of experience in all of what you’ve just been through. So, can I take you back to, to when you were called up?
AP: Yes.
NM: You were called up on or you volunteered?
AP: I didn’t volunteer, I received a notification that I’d been called up.
NM: Ok.
AP: This is what Denise disagreed with me, I said, ‘No Denise, I did not volunteer, they called me up, and that was the first day they could call me’.
NM: And did you choose the air force or did they-
AP: I chose the air force, yes.
NM: You chose the air force. Why did you-
AP: I also chose to go into engineering, which I was lucky really.
NM: Why did you choose the air force?
AP: ‘Cause I’d always loved it, flying and the idea of flying, always been in my heart and mind I suppose. That’s really why.
NM: Where had you come across flying before you joined up?
AP: Only normal things, for holidays, and so on, nobody in my family flew. I’d met some youngsters, Ian Letch[?] was when they were here, was one who I met and he didn’t come back, he was one of the ones that didn’t come back, he was, he was a fighter pilot, he wasn’t the bombers, but can always remember he said to me, ‘You won’t remember my birthday’, and that’s the sort of thing you forget [chuckles] and I didn’t remember his birthday I’m afraid, and he didn’t come back, so that was him, bless him. Other than that, no, flying has always appealed to me, I haven’t ever flown, haven’t ever flown. I find it romantic, they say, yes, I do.
NM: So, you chose the air force?
AP: I chose the air force.
NM: And you chose engineering because of-
AP: I chose engineering because I could do it.
NM: You could do it.
AP: Yes.
NM: And they were happy to accept you, were they? As, as a woman?
AP: Oh yeah, no problem, yeah, no problem, and strangely enough yesterday I met an officer doing the same thing, which is the furthest I’ve been with it, saw she was in the area of Marythorpe[?], I don’t know who she was but she just introduced herself, said, ‘I did engineering on the, on this one’, because, you see, people don’t realise that they started off bombing with the, with the Wellington, I started off [unclear] with Wellington, not the ones I did but, but that’s what they describe and that’s what I was there for [unclear] of course which is another thing isn’t it? I’ve always liked that type of thing shall we say.
NM: So, they sent you up north for your initial square basing and uniform and injections?
AP: Yes, that’s right, yes.
NM: Was that Padgate?
AP: Padgate, that’s it, yes.
NM: Near Liverpool.
AP: And then we went down to Gloucester [emphasis], near Glo- Right near Gloucester it was, for square bashing, the only place I did square bashing actually, and then onto Halton from there. They’re the, they’re the places I went to, I didn’t go anywhere else.
NM: And how long were you at Halton for?
AP: About nine months I think, there was quite a lot to learn, but they were very good and very helpful. I can’t tell you what I did that I shouldn’t, should I really? [Chuckles]
NM: You can do, it’s many years ago, gone by.
AP: Oh yeah, yes well. I had my bicycle there at Halton, which was fifty miles away from Letchworth, and I discovered that if I went over the back I could get out, went over the back and then down the Dunstable Downs, and was at that time, it was so early in the war that we as a [unclear] still got petrol, so they used to bring me back and drop me off outside [chuckles] outside the place.
NM: So, you used to cycle from Halton to Letchworth?
AP: Yes, I did, yes.
NM: Fifty miles, to come and see you, your parents?
AP: Just to come and see my parents, yeah, I didn’t have a boyfriend then, no.
NM: Gosh.
AP: [Chuckles] My boyfriend story, you don’t have to write this but, when I was sixteen, I’ve got the years wrong, did he say that was five year- When I was sixteen, I was swimming at Letchworth swimming pool and I used to dive and so on, and he saw me there and he said to somebody, ‘Who’s that girl?’, so they told him and my parents and so on, he said, ‘I’m going to marry her’. He did, but not till I was twenty-eight.
NM: Wow.
AP: Yeah. Mind of course at that age, being five years younger, just imagine how stupid I thought he was [chuckles], I tried not to be nasty to him, I wasn’t, he was in the boy's brigade as well. That probably is another idea where I got the idea of flying, was the girls training corps I was in as a youngster, younger than (obviously) when I went in. My, my children also went to the boys training school as well, so they’ve all had a finger in the pie as it were, yeah.
NM: So, tell me about the engineering training at Halton.
AP: Well basically they, they tell you how to do- How to change plugs, (which I already knew anyway) how to- If there was a faulty stud[?] how to remove it and how to put a new one in, that sort of thing which is- We didn’t go any further than that really because all we did was replace plugs, and anything which was damaged when they came in, which would be a normal service on a car really, in those days, much more these days then it was. I didn’t have anything to do with the actual running of the engine at all, we used to have to run them after we’d done them so- To make sure they still went. Other than that, no, I didn’t ever have anything to do with- It was done by a sergeant of flight sergeant probably, can’t remember now exactly what. We didn’t have a pilot to do it, it was- Must’ve been the sergeants that did it, and they didn’t sort of come and take them up, they went up, the flight sergeants went up, took them up to make sure they were sound, it wasn’t us.
NM: So, you worked on, on vehicles as well as aeroengine [unclear]?
AP: Yes, I did, yeah, I’d already done that ‘cause I’d done it at home, I didn’t do a car or anything, although I could drive a car, I drove a car at sixteen, because being in the garage it was easier to drive and so on, which I did, so, yeah.
NM: So, when you finished your training-
AP: Yeah.
NM: - did they give you a rank?
AP: Yeah, only leading aircraft, I never got any higher than leading aircraft woman, yes well that’s all you’re given, and basically didn’t really matter because some of them were more than I was, corporal and so on, worked with me, yeah, and if I was doing alright, they didn’t have no complaints, or I didn’t have any complaints anyway, I was very thorough because that’s the way I am.
NM: And were there any other girls on your course? Or were you the only one?
AP: Just the two.
NM: Right.
AP: Me and this Joan Dunkley[?], she came from Epsom and her father was Vick Smithe, chief lad- No sorry, her father was chief lad to Vick Smithe (got that wrong), the race horse owner, in Epsom. I went there actually, and even that had its wealth[?] ‘cause as we were having a meal, a vice woman[?] came over and mum said, ‘Get under the table’, [unclear], we all got under the table and she said, ‘George, for god's sake do something about that bugger’ [chuckles], he said, ‘What d’you expect me to do? Catch it’, [chuckles] tickled me to death really, if I was a visitor, I don’t think I would’ve used the word bugger but probably he did quite often. I never swore by the way when I was in the air force, although they did, mind that’s only in storytelling, I never did, never did.
NM: So, Joan came back with you to your parents?
AP: No, yeah- No I went to her, I went to her, I don’t think she ever came to me, no she didn’t, not as far as I remember, just didn’t work out that way, but where she is now of course I don’t know, I would think if she’d been married, she’d probably die by now, I mean I’m ninety-one [chuckles].
NM: So, tell me about when you were off duty at Halton, what was your social life like?
AP: Oh yes, we used to go out in the squadron bus, and we used to go into Oxford, there’s a very good dance hall in- Just inside Oxford which we used to go, we always used to go there, that is- Was the outest part, inside we used to have dances in the hall, there was a hall there where we could meet and so on, other than that there wasn’t a great deal we did, really. Just normal past times [unclear], I can’t really remember doing anything extremely unusual, we were all probably quite tired by the time we’d finished for the day, didn’t go out much really ‘cause it was very much in the country, I always remember getting into trouble ‘cause I had hay fever and he said, ‘Well you’ll have to keep out of the grass’, and I thought oh, in the middle of the country, how can I stop that? Anyway, there are some stupid people about [chuckles], yeah. So that’s- Oh I used to go out with them, odd one or two, I did go out, I never slept with anyone, of course in those days it wasn’t done, I just did not sleep with anybody, don’t put that in.
NM: So, so from Halton, you were posted-
AP: To Oakley.
NM: To Oakley.
AP: And I was, I was there when war was ended.
NM: So, what, what date did you go to Oakley?
AP: That I cannot tell you, I can’t remember the dates I’m afraid. I must’ve been there at least a year, because it- I was there, out- ‘Cause I told you how cold it was. I must’ve been there in, in about February time, or in that early year of the, of the year ‘cause it was cold. I can remember when it was frosty, of course I- And I said they used my fingers ‘cause they couldn’t get them round the nuts and bolts very easily, mine did.
NM: So, they put you to work on, on Wellingtons?
AP: Straight away, yeah, and the, and the scaffolding was quite tall for me. In fact, I think I had to have a hip done recently, and I think that was basically ‘cause I always lead with the right leg, and if you do that you tend to wear the joints out, but that was all, I mean the other legs alright so think that’s what it was.
NM: So, were you attached to a unit or were you just a pool of engineers working on the aircraft?
AP: No, no, pool of engineers, not a unit, no, no, I never heard any names or anything for the units at all, I mean they were all- Oh, interestingly, quite a lot of them came from southern Ireland ‘cause they were allowed to come and they didn’t have to go back, they could go back when they liked, they could pretty please themselves, did you know that? The southern Irish? Yeah, they could come and work there for as long as they wish and I think they probably stayed because they’re probably better off than they were in Ireland at that time, and yeah, they stayed. I’ve met many Irish people since and said how pleased I was to work with them ‘cause they’re lovely people to work with, yeah those, and the rest were Londoners and all came from all over the place really, some of the men I remember quite distinctly as being Londoners, that’s where my husband come from, obviously that would happen.
NM: So how many were, were there in this pool of engineers that you were- You and Joan were part of?
AP: I should- Oh I should think there were thirty, forty of us.
NM: And how many aircraft?
AP: Well, they were coming and going all the time, we’d all got two on go, not many, I mean it wasn’t, wasn’t like an airfield exactly. We’re always two being serviced, and that’s where I don’t know, I mean I don’t know how many more there were about, whether there were any left from the bombing, that’s presumably where they came from in the first place ‘cause then they didn’t use them anymore, did they, so. I just taught these chaps to fly [unclear] I think, that’s all. Nothing more I’m afraid, nothing that I can remember.
NM: So- And Joan came with you to, to Oakley?
AP: Yeah, she came with me yes.
NM: From, from Halton, yeah, so you were there together.
AP: That’s right, yeah.
NM: So-
AP: She’d be about the same age as me, I think. What she wanted to do, she wanted to be an operator, an air operator, but they said she couldn’t be ‘cause she- Her sight was bad, but she didn’t ever have it tested, so I don’t know how they knew [chuckles]. Typical air force, but she was a bit annoyed about it, but- However, we worked together quite well.
NM: So- Were you working in hangars or out in the open-
AP: Outside.
NM: Outside.
AP: Outside, on a sort of flat metal area or, or even tarmac, I think it was tarmac actually, yeah, and we had just an ordinary hut behind us. We had huts which we could sit in, I remember that, and we used to cook ourselves eggs and beans and things in there for a meal if we wanted to eat something.
NM: And you had accommodation on the airfield somewhere else?
AP: Yes, we had accommodation, yes.
NM: So how did you get between where you were living and then the dispersals?
AP: Presumably they transported us, but I think it wasn’t that far, we could’ve walked. My feeling is that we walked, I don’t remember any transport. It was well set up, it was- The airfield was here, the way in was here, and the other places were here, all wooden- Normal brick, normal brick bottom but wooden tops, yeah. Anywhere else I’ve seen them, that’s the only place I’ve ever seen them.
NM: You mentioned the cold, but you worked in all conditions I assume?
AP: We worked in all conditions yes.
NM: Rain, sleet, snow, sunshine?
AP: Absolutely, whatever, whatever’s required at the time, we did it. We thought of course we were helping, I expect we were, but that’s-
NM: And it was only the Wellingtons there at Oakley?
AP: Only Wellingtons, I did deal with one Hurricane, which I don’t quite know how it got there, but I always remember that there was a sick bay there, and I remember this chap coming in terribly burnt, it had set fire, and he was on it at the time, nothing to do with us really but, something that happened, yeah.
NM: So, you ended up working on the Hurricane, did you? To repair-
AP: No, I didn’t ever actually work on it, no, I think he probably was too badly done for us, it’s probably greater technical need for that to be mended, put right.
NM: So, what were the off-duty hours like at Oakley?
AP: Like a day, really. We didn’t have any particular off-duty hours, we just- If we’d finished the job, we went off, that was it. It’s a bit like the end of war ‘cause I don’t remember where I went. I don’t get [unclear], I don’t drink but, I don’t know where I went at the end of war. I know I’d got my bicycle, I remember my bicycle being there, don’t know what I did, I don’t know.
NM: So, you don’t remember any particular celebrations at-
AP: No, I think, I think I got to London ‘cause I’ve got a vague recollection of the centre of London with all the people in it and that’s all, but I had to get back you see ‘cause I wasn’t on leave or anything, but everybody was so excited, I don’t think it would’ve mattered a great deal but, but it was worth going to London just for that. I’m afraid I don’t remember the details.
NM: So you went back to Oakley after the celebrations and just carried on?
AP: Just carried on as normal ‘cause as far as we’re concerned, it was still the same, we still got to teach these New Zealanders to fly our aircraft, maybe they flew there, I don’t know [unclear].
NM: So tell me about the circumstances of being transferred up to Yorkshire and Dishforth.
AP: Well, it’s only, only just you receive a notification to say, ‘You’re not required here, we’re sending you to Dishforth’, they don’t tell you why, or anything, they just tell you you’ve got to go there, and then we went by train, all went by train, and that was it really.
NM: And this was ’45, was it still?
AP: Yes, yes, yes, yeah would be ’45 now, yes, and it would’ve been later in the year, ‘cause I’ve told you that I was up at, up at Dishforth and I had to stop working outside, so it wasn’t late- Until later, when it was a bit warmer, when they laid me off and sent me home ‘cause I had pneumonia and pleurisy.
NM: Tell me about, tell me about your first impressions of Dishforth in Yorkshire.
AP: Oh, what a marvellous place, it’s ‘cause it was so sort of big and the hangars themselves were very big because the Yorks were big too, they were in hangars there, there were, as I remember, about three hangars, and the York in two of them and one empty, because they’d obviously been flying out to Germany to pick the prisoners up, that’s what they’d been doing there.
NM: So, it was different, you had to work on a different aeroplane?
AP: Oh, quite different.
NM: You were working in hangars?
AP: No, still outside.
NM: Still outside, ok.
AP: Yeah, and we were on long wooden planks alongside the engines which was a bit different from where we were before, we were sort of astride metal bars, whereas this was all laid out with proper board to stand on around the, around the York, obviously done that before, yeah, it was all new. There was like a- I had to get up there, but once you got up there, you were, you were safe, it was much easier to work on and the other things which were your feet were very safe, in the first instance.
NM: So, were your duties the same?
AP: Yes, exactly the same, exactly the same.
NM: But these were inline liquid cool engines, were they?
AP: That’s right.
NM: What was the difference?
AP: [Laughs] Bigger.
NM: From your perspective, as an engineer?
AP: Yeah, well I liked inline, I liked inline better than I liked radium anyway.
NM: Why?
AP: I don’t know really, just that they- I liked the feel of them, I liked the way they were, they were gonna run when they started. I think radials tended to be more noisy anyway, from what I remember of them, and radial, yeah.
NM: So, to you it was just the carry on of what you’d been doing previously?
AP: It was exactly the same really. Well, you see- I mean don’t forget that we’re not being paid for this, this is what we’re expected to do whatever happened really.
NM: And the accommodation was that wooden huts again or was it-
AP: Yes, yes.
NM: It was exactly the same.
AP: They were better I think, if I remember rightly, yes, they were. Better- Well
‘cause it was a more permanent station, Oakley was a very much a wartime one, whereas this- They Dishforth one was probably had been used as civilian I think, possibly. I think it probably was, yeah, yes.
NM: And again, did Joan go with you this time or?
AP: Yes, she went with me.
NM: Ok, the two of you.
AP: Yes, we both went together. I don’t know really what happened to her, because once they’d taken you away from your area, you don’t see everybody and they disappear, but she went home about the same times as I did, and then I just didn’t see her go, which I was sad about ‘cause I would’ve liked to have done really. Although we fought sometimes, we did see the eye to eye mostly. I think we fought literally, but mentally.
NM: So, was- What were the off-duty hours in Dishforth like? Were you nearby settlements?
AP: Yeah, no there was more going on on the unit. Yeah, there was NAAFI’s and things like that there, which we didn’t have in the other place, and I can remember going to the NAAFI, can also remember also going to a little dance there as well, and there were places where you could go and sit in, like a cafe, which was better than we were at Oakley. Yeah, it was well set up.
NM: So, at some point you got pleurisy and pneumonia?
AP: Yeah.
NM: And at some point, you had a car accident, which, which came first?
AP: The car accident. I- My parents came up for my leave, and we were going to Largs in Scotland, from there, it was not that far, and on the way I hit a tank trap and I turned the car over, right over so that it swivelled right round on its roof, my dad said he saved us going down into dangerous dip. They of course were alright, but I didn’t know at the time that they were. That came first, and then I assume that this was about December time, when I became ill. They of course had gone home then, we was only there for the year- For the holiday, and they sent for them to come back ‘cause I was so ill.
NM: So you weren’t, you weren’t injured in the car crash?
AP: No.
NM: Oh fortunate, wasn’t it?
AP: Yeah, it was, neither were they actually. I always remember because my mother got what we call- Oh dear, her knickers were, all of safety [unclear] we used to call them, and her legs were up here, and my dad hit the choke with knee, and it cut his knee open, that was it. So, they were lucky really.
NM: Yeah, yeah, it sounds [unclear]
AP: Serious [unclear] and when we got to the place, they wouldn’t even give us a cup of tea, and I always blame a bit for that ‘cause I think a nice hot cup of tea might’ve stopped me being ill, you don’t know of course but- Anyway, and December time I started to be ill and I was-
NM: So that was soon after?
AP: Pardon?
NM: That was very soon after then?
AP: Yes, it was, and I was still in after Christmas. So, it was bad too.
NM: So how long were you in hospital for with your ill-
AP: Two months at least. I don’t think- I think I’d have to be in a lot longer if hadn’t had penicillin. I had eighty injections in my bottom, one every eight hours, was very sore [chuckles].
NM: I bet.
AP: It cured me, I’ve always been grateful for that, I’ve always been able to take penicillin too since, you know, when you have the odd illness, yeah.
NM: So, that was the point then, you were what invalided out of the RAF?
AP: No, I wasn’t invalid, I just came out at the end of my time. I wasn’t actually that ill, no.
NM: And that was ‘47?
AP: Yes, yeah, yes, 1945, now I did three-and-a-half years, oh no we’ve got confused.
NM: So, you-
AP: I did a year-and-a-half in the war, so that was ‘44, ‘45, and two more after that, yes you’re right ‘47. ‘46, ‘47, yes that’s right.
NM: So, you were- Had recovered by the time you left the RAF?
AP: Yes, I had, I was fine. I would’ve liked to have gone back but they didn’t want me by that time which was all sorted out, that part of the, the RAF anyway.
NM: So, they actually asked you to leave did they, in effect?
AP: Yes, they did, yes.
NM: Yeah, ok.
AP: And I went to-
NM: So, what happened-
AP: - Padstow, I remember going to, to come out, that was in London isn’t it, Padstow?
NM: That was a demob centre, was it?
AP: Yes, I think so, yeah. I think it was London, in fact, I’m sure it was London. Yeah, that was it, that was all, I didn’t have to do anything else.
NM: So, tell me about life after the RAF.
AP: I went back to the garage. Still doing the same sort of thing, ‘cause I liked engineering, so that- The garage was still there in those days, so yes, I went back to it.
NM: So, this time-
AP: Normal hours, you know.
NM: You were twenty-one?
AP: Yes, I was twenty-one, yes.
NM: So-
AP: I had a boyfriend, but that didn’t come to anything, he was in the air force actually, but-
NM: So, tell me about your life since you worked in the garage then?
AP: Since [emphasis]?
NM: Yep.
AP: [Chuckles]
NM: Take me from twenty-one to now, ninety-one.
AP: Oh dear, oh dear. I’ve been various different places, but the years and things I’m not quite sure about. I’ve been to Norway five times, I’ve been up the Amazon once with my parents, that was early on. It was a three-month thing, a month to get there, a month up the Amazon, and a month to come back [chuckles], that sort of thing. What else have I done? I’m not very good at this answer.
NM: How long did you spend working in the garage?
AP: Oh years, years. Yeah. 1954 when I got married, must’ve been till about then.
NM: Tell me about your husband, you said your husband was in the RAF.
AP: Yes, he was.
NM: So you became a service wife, did you?
AP: [Laughs] yes, he, he joined the air force having finished the instrument training which he was doing, which was quite useful because he did his oil engineering and so on, and he- We got married and we went to Bournemouth for a honeymoon which got broken up ‘cause we were only there five days, and he then went back to Wales, which- He was in Wales, then, he was then training on all the normal aircraft that you train on, and he was then flying jets and when we got married, after a while, we lived in Barnstaple for a while, and then he was posted to Geilenkirchen, so we went out to Germany, and we lived in Holland, a place called Eygelshoven[?], just over the border, not far from Maastricht and while he was there, he actually flew attack at [unclear], I heard it mentioned on this ting over Syria, he went out to show the flag, just the typical British show off thing and then he came back, I had to stay in Europe because he couldn’t take me with him, and then when we’d been- We’d been there for two years ‘cause we took a car out there and we didn’t have to pay tax on it because we were out there, and when we got there I was very pregnant with my son, and when we got to the airport they wouldn’t let us in because they said we’d got to pay the tax, we were there for hours and hours and I was so- I was seven months pregnant, I wasn’t very happy, and it was late at night, and then in the end we called my father to come. He had a, a judge thing- He was a judge, so they took his word for it that we hadn’t done anything wrong and they let us home, otherwise we’d still be there, and then after that we lived in Letchworth all our lives. Keith was brought up in Letchworth by an aunt because there was no one else left to bring him up and he and his cousin were- Lived in Letchworth, got married in Letchworth. His cousin is still alive by the way, and his wife, they’re both in the air force strangely enough and-
NM: So you’re husband had left the air force at this point, had he? When he came back?
AP: Yes, he left the air force and then went into civil flying, started at Dan-Air in, in Europe, in- The east coast isn’t it Dan-Air? Think so, and then he went to Elstree and taught for a while because there weren’t any place- Weren’t any places left, and so he went on, he went up to Birmingham for a while. I can’t remember the aircraft I’m afraid, and I doubt it very much, and then he started flying the Boeings. [Unclear] where he flew to Boeings, which are what the President was flying in at that time, not anymore, he was, and they stayed out for Hong Kong for a bit longer, he’d been- He did the Seychelles and [unclear] Athens, Athens, Greece- In Greece, he moved to Greece for a while. Took me out to the Seychelles on one occasion, we had a fortnight out there which was alright, except I got bitten as usual. I think that’s it really, then when he came home, bless him, he developed Alzheimers, he wouldn’t have it was Alzheimers. He managed to have a burst aorta [unclear] while he was having his ears- Eyes tested, he was there with his son and his son said, ‘I’ll have to tell you what he’s had’, and told them what he’d had, and he’s got Alzheimers, he said, ‘I haven’t got bloody Alzheimers, I've got just [unclear]’ [chuckles] call it Alzheimers, yes, I’ve got the word Alzheimers. Yeah mentally he became very bad.
NM: Oh dear.
AP: Yeah, and it was six years actually that he was- Had-
NM: So, when your husband was flying fighters and jets in the RAF and you had been in the RAF before him, what, what did you think then? ‘Cause you were out of the RAF and he was in it? What did-
AP: I loved [emphasis] it.
NM: You loved being a service wife?
AP: I didn’t mind, I never had fear of losing him, I never did have and we got a couple of friends who we asked to stand in, in case anything happened to him while he was away, and they did, in fact they’ve both gone now, and yeah- No, I never got worried about it ‘cause I thought he’s a good pilot, he’s too careful to do anything stupid, although he did have things happen to him obviously when he was flying, but no, [unclear].
NM: Can you remember what he was flying? Types of aeroplanes?
AP: [Chuckles] Yes, I knew you were going to ask me that, Sabre, he did the Macfin Two[?] Mac Two[?], I’ll have to go up and look what it is, upstairs on the landing, not one in here is there?
NM: What- Don’t worry, we’ll, we’ll-
AP: Pardon?
NM: Don’t worry about it for now.
AP: No?
NM: It’s fine. So, when you look back in your time, in your time in the RAF-
AP: Yeah.
NM: What, what, what are your feelings about it?
AP: I loved it, every minute of it, every minute of it, I even liked being told off because I thought that was part of security and that was part of learning, if you didn’t know that you shouldn’t say these things, then that- How you learn, how it’s necessary for people to tell you to do the things right, yeah, no, I loved it. I really did. I can always remember (this is soon after I said to the corporal that if it was cold, I’d warm myself) I was out in- Course it was all dark with no lights and I walked into a brick wall and I hit my face and my head, and they said, ‘You shouldn’t’ve drunk so much’, I said, ‘I don’t even drink’. I didn’t have a drink till I was nineteen, and that was only ‘cause it was a party, I never over drank, I did have a drink occasionally but to me, it was a lovely life for a woman, man too for that matter, man too yeah.
NM: Well, I say, as a woman in the RAF at that point, must’ve been quite rare, were you- Did you have any special favours from the men, or was it just as hard for you as?
AP: No, just as hard, they treated you even harder in fact, they could be very saucy but then I didn’t mind that, I didn’t mind- You see to me, this business of where they criticise ‘cause men shout at women as they pass by, that’s ridiculous [emphasis], they used to that to all the time, just rode over, didn’t take notice of it, it’s fine [chuckles] to me, but then I’m a bit, I’m a bit easy pleased I must admit, I don’t mind a joke, if it’s a bit naughty, but then if you’ve been in the air force you were gonna get them weren’t you? [Chuckles]. No, I loved the life, I really did, I’d go back if I was younger, I really would, yeah.
NM: ‘Cause you saw RAF life from both sides then, both being in it and then also as- When your husband was in it?
AP: Absolutely, I must tell you [unclear] story, where I went to Geilenkirchen one night to be in the mess, for the mess meal and Keith had been playing football and he suddenly said, ‘Oh god’, he said, ‘I’ve got cramp in my leg’, so I knelt down on the floor and rubbed his leg, which of course it was here, the back of the thigh, just as everybody came in didn’t I? To us that was a joke but not everybody’s joke is it really? [Chuckles] No, that’s how I treated life, if it was a joke, it was a joke, if not then I treated it seriously, I hope I did anyway, I mean the fact that I did my work, I did it thoroughly, I meant it to be thorough and I meant it to be good, and at the time of course I didn’t realise that we weren’t really in it any more, it was, it was- Well nobody did, did they because it was only another year or so since the war ended.
NM: So it had to be good because of course they asked you to take a flight each time you-
AP: They always took a flight, yes [unclear] take a flight.
NM: So, you’ve- How many flights in total? Did you ever keep a log?
AP: No, I didn’t, no I didn’t, we didn’t in those days, we had- Well every time I finished one, I was quite- Must’ve done sort of, between seven or eight I suppose, different times, not at the same time obviously, yeah. Same- Probably the same aircraft came back again, I don’t remember, I don’t remember the aircraft numbers or anything. You see we had to be so careful, you didn’t put anything down in writing, it was still all secret.
NM: Now, one of the episodes you mentioned was the return of the POW’s when you were at Oakley.
AP: Yes, that’s right.
NM: Tell me about them coming back.
AP: Well, there were- There must’ve been between fifty and sixty, I can’t remember exactly, they were all dressed in the same sort of outfits, and because they’d all been covered in this yellow paint, there was sort of dust, but lumpy dust which was to kill the bugs that they’d picked up there before they came home and they were all dressed the same and they looked so dull, so- I mean [unclear] some of them had probably been there four years, don’t know do we? Four, five years even, five years, ‘39, ’41. They didn’t look particularly physically ill, only mentally ill I think, and as I said to you, they didn’t seem to know where they were. Did they think to say [unclear] going home? I don’t know. We just said, ‘Well, you’re home now’. We knew they’d got to go somewhere else, so if they asked, we had to say, ‘Well you have to be medically checked’, we had to tell them all this you see.
NM: So you were part of the reception-
AP: Yeah, yeah.
NM: - meeting?
AP: Yes, well there must’ve been sort of ten or twenty of us there, just going round and talking to them, making them- Try to make them feel at home, which is very difficult if they don’t know where they are. I mean RAF Dishforth is nowhere to them. I’d say, ‘Well you’re in the north of England’, which is about the best they’d get really. Yeah, remember them going, I think they were still sitting there when we left.
NM: ‘Cause that was- Yeah, that was at Oakley, wasn’t it?
AP: I don’t know- Pardon?
NM: That was at Oakley, wasn’t it? They came back to Oakley?
AP: No, they came back to Dishforth.
NM: Did they?
AP: Yes, it was in the York remember. They couldn't've come in a- In one of those, there was too many of them. No, it was Dishforth.
NM: Ok, so they came back to Dishforth?
AP: Yes, definitely Dishforth.
NM: Ok
AP: Yeah, big aircraft you see, the York. I don’t know, as I’ve never seen the runway, if the runway at Oakley would’ve been big enough for the York, probably wouldn’t, it’s all so different, isn’t it? Definitely York, where- That’s a proper airport, a real airport, now that’s the difference between Oakley and Dishforth, Dishforth was a real airport type place, big area of white- Floor area to land, grass area to land, yeah, whereas we didn’t see the landing don’t forget, we only saw the aircraft arrive probably toed by a, a tractor, that’s [unclear] I remember it and just part there for us to deal with. Nothing very important about that. Sorry, I hope that’s-
NM: That’s fine.
AP: Hasn’t bored you to tears?
NM: Not at all, not at all. That’s absolutely fantastic, thank you. Do you want to just talk me through some of these photographs we’ve got here?
AP: Yes I don’t know [unclear]
NM: There’s one of you sitting on a propeller.
AP: That’s it, that’s, that’s one of these.
NM: That’s a Wellington
AP: Yeah, that’s a Wellington, yeah. Oh, that’s just me [chuckles] [unclear], there I am again, it’s the same one but slightly different, I used to have to crawl along that you see.
NM: Ok. I think we’ll leave it there, shall we?
AP: Yeah, surely, yeah.
NM: Thank you very much indeed and we’ll take it from there.
AP: That’s just Keith and-
NM: Thank you Audrey.
AP: You’re welcome. Keith and his best man.
NM: Oh, that’s your husband?
AP: Yeah.
NM: Which one’s your husband?
AP: [Chuckles] I shall remember, that’s Keith.
NM: That’s him there. A good day, both in their flying uniforms with their wings.
AP: Yes, yes.
NM: Best man as a pilot as well.
AP: Yes.
NM: Fantastic. Your diamond wedding greetings from the queen?
AP: Yes, that’s right
NM: Fantastic
AP: Denise wrote and told her, so she did it- You have to write and tell, she doesn’t do it automatically, I didn’t know that. Now what were you doing, ‘cause you’re a doctor now are you? Doctor of medicine or-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Audrey Poynter
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APoynterAD180416
Format
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00:56:01 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cheshire
Description
An account of the resource
Having worked in her father’s garage, Audrey was called up, aged 17½, and joined the Royal Air Force. After RAF Padgate, she did some square-bashing at Gloucester before going to RAF Halton. She was taught to change plugs, replace faulty studs and anything damaged. She worked on vehicles as well as aircraft engines. Audrey was posted to RAF Oakley, doing repairs on Wellingtons. There were 30-40 engineers on site. She recalls how cold it was and how they worked outside. After a year, she was sent to RAF Dishforth where she repaired Yorks, which were used to transport several hundred prisoners of war from Germany, many in a confused state. Audrey was one of only two females at all three stations. She was hospitalised with pneumonia and pleurisy, and was one of the first in the country to receive penicillin. Audrey was demobilised in 1947 and returned to work in the garage.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Sally Coulter
Temporal Coverage
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1945
1947
ground crew
ground personnel
hangar
mechanics engine
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Dishforth
RAF Halton
RAF Oakley
RAF Padgate
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1070/11527/APercivalRA161006.2.mp3
aa91caf943ea7204a1d9e0d6b824cffd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Percival, Robert Andrew
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with (b. 1960, 8173900 Royal Air Force). He served served 1978 - 1987 including time with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight at RAF Coningsby and recovered 14 Merlin engines from Spain.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Percival, RA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 6th of October 2016 and we’re in the home of Robert Percival to talk about his times in the RAF which is much later than wartime but it’s significant for the reasons that will come out as we talk. First of all though Rob what are you first earliest recollections of family life? And —
RP: Family life?
CB: Where you went to school and so on.
RP: Well, I grew up in a place, in a village, called Lymm in Cheshire. L Y M M. And that’s where my father was brought up as well. And I grew up there, went to the usual primary school and then to Lymm Grammar School. I was one of only seven pupils from the primary school that actually qualified, or passed the eleven plus as it was and went to Lymm Grammar School. And had some very happy years there. How much detail do you want me to go into?
CB: Yeah. So then what did, what did you specialize in then? In education.
RP: Oh, well my chosen, well what I specialized in or loved the most was maths and geography. Those were my favourite subjects. Passed a string of O levels and when my friends and fellow pupils at grammar school were thinking about university and what their next moves were I was unusual in that that didn’t really appeal to me to be honest with you. Largely because my hobbies, my main hobby at the time was that of car rallying. I was one of the youngest qualified rally navigators in the country. But in order to do that I had to contribute some of the costs. So my priority at the time was to, rather than go to university go for an income somewhere so that I could continue my passion for rallying. Ok. So, much to my parent’s, what’s the word, displeasure. My motivation was that I’d always loved aeroplanes and always wanted to be a pilot. My father was a pilot in the Fleet Air Arm. And I’ve a photograph of him in his uniform on his wedding day in the lounge. But he used to fly. He was on carriers. He did eighty two deck landings. He’s passed away now, bless his soul but I have his flying log books. And he used to fly Fireflies primarily and Avengers on HMS Centaur. And he was my role model in terms of discussions and conversations about aeroplanes. And that’s what I wanted to do. And I actually applied to be a pilot and went to the Aircrew Selection Centre at Biggin Hill when I was seventeen. Passed all the tests with the exception of the medical because I’m colour blind. Now, I actually knew I was colour blind but my father, who I think was also a little bit colour blind, he was, he was a pilot. And in his naïve, my naïve way we thought we could blag our way through it. He said, ‘You’ll be fine.’ And of course the tests were a bit more, what’s the word? Involved and substantial than when he applied to be a pilot and they said sorry sunshine but you’re not flying one of our aeroplanes. You’re colour blind. Big disappointment. So, you know, I was thinking well what do I do now? And I decided to go down the engineering and this is why my chosen path was the, was the ATechP. Technician propulsion. Because to do the traditional apprenticeship at RAF Halton again one needed to be not colour blind. So that was my chosen route and that’s, that was where my parents were not very pleased with me because they said, ‘Well you ought to be going in as an officer, you know. Otherwise it’s like working in a car garage.’ And me being a bit pig headed at the time and seventeen years old nobody’s going to tell me what to do, I joined anyway. So, in spite of their displeasure. So, that’s how I came about joining the RAF in the trade that, as I say, I did. I have to say I enjoyed the work in the RAF. I enjoyed my time there. I wasn’t, I didn’t have the right, looking back I didn’t have the right personality to be in that type of environment. You know, I wasn’t one to take orders lightly. And I was a bit of a, was a bit of a maverick I have to say. But I went to Swinderby, did the training, went to Halton. Qualified as a technician. Was posted to Coningsby.
CB: Tell us a bit about the training.
RP: The training at — well I did, the normal square bashing at Swinderby was my first insight into that. Which was, that was fine. I just went through the motions. From what I can remember I think it was only a matter of weeks at Swinderby anyway. I can’t remember exactly how long but I don’t think it was more than about three months at Halton. That was fine. I enjoyed that. And I enjoyed obviously my first time away from home. So, looking back at some of the things we did. I had a girlfriend at the time in Cheshire when I left. So I went home most weekends when I could. And my normal, to start with my normal thing was to thumb it home from Halton. And then back on a Sunday night. My parents were a bit worried about that but I could always gauge within ten minutes what time I was going to arrive home. And it was, you know, a good three hour trip. And likewise going back on a Sunday night. Set up my first business whilst I was at Halton actually and that was trading in cars. So I used to thumb it home on a Friday. Buy a car over the weekend in Cheshire or Warrington where they were cheaper. Drive it back on the Sunday. Do whatever needed doing to it and sell it. So that was, that was my life split between Cheshire and RAF Halton.
CB: And how did the training course run? What did they actually do to teach you aero engineering?
RP: It started off with basic engineering first and time spent in the workshop just seeing how cut out we were to be an engineer. I remember vividly having to file bits of sheet metal and mild steel flat within tolerances to see whether, you know you had the patience for doing that sort of thing. And then it was, got gradually got more and more complex. Introduction to the, you know the jet engines and propeller engines. Going through modules where you’d take parts off, strip them down, rebuild them, put them back on the engines. And got to the point where, if I remember right, we were doing a lot of work on the Jet Provost at the time. But yes it was quite, quite an intense twelve month course. Because as I say that was a fairly new category where you could do, you know the, it wasn’t quite an apprenticeship but you could do your specialist engines or airframes, and I chose engines.
CB: The Jet Provost was the standard basic trainer then. What balance did you have of activity between classroom and practical?
RP: As one would expect, to start with a lot of it was theory and classroom based and as we progressed through that course it gradually became more and more practical. And towards the end most of it was practical indeed. Yeah.
CB: So were you stripping down engines and reassembling them?
RP: Yeah.
CB: What were you doing and how did that work?
RP: You’re testing my memory now. But no, it was about exactly as you say. Stripping down engines and rebuilding them but it was very much in accordance with the manual. The manual was the, was the thing that you had to do everything in accordance with. And half the test was about could you stick to the manual and, because what we didn’t want was to build an engine and have some bits left over [laughs] So, so, no it’s all about the discipline of following the procedures as set out in, in the manual at the time.
CB: And there are a huge range of tools used in the RAF. How did they deal with that from a safety point of view?
RP: Well, it was drummed into us at the start that as you say there’s a lot of specialist and general tools and they were all on tool boards with shadow stickers behind them. So at the end of each, not just the end of each working day but the end of each job as well you had to make sure that all the tools were back in its dedicated position. And it was immediately obvious when any of them weren’t because you had this dayglo sticker gazing at you thinking there is a space here where there should be a tool. So that was how they were managed.
CB: And who were the instructors? Were some of them civilians or air force.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Or what were they?
RP: Yeah. It was a mix of civilian instructors who were usually ex-RAF and serving air force instructors at the time.
CB: And how did you know if the engine was going to work after you’d reassembled it?
RP: Well, we refitted it into the Jet Provost at the time and did the ground test. And I think having built the engine, sat in the cockpit, started it and ran through a series of ground tests. So —
CB: So the ground test would be running up the engine as though the pilot was doing it was it?
RP: Well, yeah but in every —
CB: With a checklist.
RP: That’s right. With every engine and aeroplane then any major job that has been done then it’s up to the technicians to go through those tests anyway so that’s even after training at Coningsby on the Phantoms and so on that, you know we went through a checklist of checks that we would go through to make sure that the engine was fully exercised at all states. From idle to max RPM. And reheat on the Phantoms to make sure that everything was within tolerances. Temperature, pressure and all the other indications.
CB: Now this was very much the jet age for the RAF and it still used Chipmunks. So how did you deal with the ordinary reciprocating engines? What was the process you went through there?
RP: Well, again we had a basic level of instruction on piston engines on Chipmunks that, you know we did some work on those and on propeller engines of all shapes anyway because a lot of, obviously the propeller engines were gas turbine jet engines. So we had an exposure to all of the different ranges of engines and, and styles. And of course with my time at Coningsby and on the Battle of Britain Flight I flew many times in Chipmunks anyway as a, on air experience. So that was quite enjoyable.
CB: What flying did you get at Halton?
RP: None. Because there is, at Halton there was a part of the course was an air experience flight in a VC10. But that happened to clash with my eighteenth birthday party back in Cheshire so I chose the birthday party [laughs] So I had to give up my place on the VC10.
CB: Right.
RP: Which was disappointing but I was —
CB: You’ve got to get your priorities haven’t you?
RP: Absolutely.
CB: Yeah. And at the end, how long was the training at Halton?
RP: If I remember right it was just over a year. It may have been twelve or thirteen months. It wasn’t a long course at all.
CB: And how did you know that you’d finished the course?
RP: Well, there was a pass out parade.
CB: Right.
RP: I was actually taken ill during my course. So the course I think was thirteen months. I was there a little longer because I developed a condition called quinsy. Which was a throat, where it was highly inflamed and because I was forced to take three weeks sickness I was actually back coursed.
CB: Re-coursed.
RP: Re-coursed on to, on to the next available one. Yeah. So that was an irritation.
CB: So, at the end of the course was there an exam? How did they do?
RP: Oh yeah. There were exams throughout but at the end of the course there was like a, you know final exams. Several final exams which, if I remember right some people failed to pass. No. That’s the wrong word. They didn’t pass. But thankfully I did. So yeah there was, you know, a celebration. A passing out parade. And then everybody got together in the classroom to be told where they would be posted to. And as you said nine hundred posted to Coningsby. And I thought where’s Coningsby?
CB: You came in as an AC2.
RP: AC2?
CB: Air craftsman second class.
RP: Well, I came in as a, the actual rank at the time was a junior technician.
CB: When you started?
RP: Yes.
CB: Was it? Right.
RP: So I left Halton with the rank of junior technician.
CB: No. No. I meant when you joined the RAF. You came in at what rank? At Swinderby.
RP: Well, that was trainee junior technician.
CB: Oh it was.
RP: That was always going to be the case.
CB: Right.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Excellent.
RP: Because I know that the lower ranks there was the SAC and, sorry LAC then SAC. And then they brought out this new category of junior technician.
CB: Right.
RP: Which did cause quite a lot of discontent among some of the existing ones. Largely because the technicians at the time previously had had to go through the ranks of LAC and SAC whereas myself and my colleagues went straight to technician grade and were actually paid considerably more. And that was what caused them to be quite upset about it.
CB: So you received your posting to Coningsby. Then what?
RP: Arrived at Coningsby and my posting was to a division called the ASF — Aircraft Servicing Flight which was, we had a couple of squadrons of Phantoms at Coningsby and then the Aircraft Servicing Flight was for more in depth maintenance and engineering work. So that we took the aeroplanes from 29 Squadron and the OCU, Operational Conversion Unit and, I think it was 43 Squadron at the time. We brought them in for, as I say the bigger services that the squadron couldn’t handle themselves. And that was my time there. I also, whilst I was there at the Aircraft Servicing Flight moved, or did a spell in engine records. And that was purely because the, I wanted to, I recognised that I’d left school with a string of O levels but I left before I did A levels and I thought maybe that was a bit of a decision made too quickly. So whilst I was at Coningsby [pause] sorry. I’m getting mixed up now. It was when I was at Wattisham. What I did was day release at the local college. Sorry it wasn’t at Coningsby. It was at Wattisham that I was in engine records.
CB: We’ll come to that in a minute then.
RP: Yeah. That’s fine.
CB: Right. So you went into engine records.
RP: Sorry, engine records. Just wind that back.
CB: Yeah.
RP: No, that was later on in Wattisham.
CB: Oh, it was. Ok.
RP: I came to it. Yeah.
CB: Right. So ASF is not the first line servicing.
RP: No. That’s, that’s second line servicing.
CB: Exactly. Yeah.
RP: Where we were doing engine changes and yeah when the squadrons went on detachment to Cyprus, Germany, where ever, they always took some personnel from ASF because they’d got the more in depth experience of, and not just actually doing the work but more in depth experience of judgements as well. When an engine had to be removed for instance.
CB: Right.
RP: The biggest example was you’re obviously aware of foreign object damage going down the air intake and damaging the compressor blades and turbines.
CB: Particularly birds.
RP: Birds. Yeah.
CB: Clothing.
RP: Bits of grit, bits of clothing and they always, and that happened regularly. Some of it was in, within tolerances and allowable but they always called on us and quite often me at the time to say whether it was outside limits and actually the engine had to be removed and, and repaired.
CB: So the Phantoms had what engine in?
RP: They had the Rolls Royce Spey. Well, as I said, yeah the Phantom had the Rolls Royce Spey but I also did the detachment to the Falklands. I was actually in the Falklands for seven months. And we had to send a squadron of Phantoms to the Falklands. But then that left a gap at home and they had to be replaced. So what happened then was we bought a squadron of American Phantoms which had the General Electric engine. So in a roundabout way I worked, I was, I was in charge of the Rolls Royce Spey engines to start with and then the General Electric engines for the, for the squadron. American ones which had been sat in the Nevada desert I believe for many years since Vietnam.
CB: So it was dry and they were ok.
RP: It was but the stories of, I’m glad I wasn’t there but I remember one particular guy who had a look at these and went down. Because the Phantom you could just crawl down the air intake. Go right down to see the, you know the compressor.
CB: Right.
RP: And the engine. And there were a lot of stories of guys going down there at the Nevada desert to check on these engines. Then appearing at a rapid rates of knots because there were rattle snakes.
CB: Oh really.
RP: Nesting in the air intakes because it was in the shade.
CB: Right. What was the performance of the planes and the reliability between Spey and General Electric engines?
RP: There were fors and against for both. Reliability was pretty much the same. The Spey apparently if I remember right was the pilots used to say was a bit faster at low level. The downside of the American ones with the General Electric, the downside was that you could see them for miles away because they did leave a trail of black smoke behind them whereas the Rolls Royce didn’t. So in those days you know the missiles were sort of fire and forget but as long as you aimed at the black smoke then —
CB: [laughs] Right.
RP: You know, the missile would find its target whereas the Rolls Royce ones didn’t present such a visual target.
CB: Ok. So how long were you at Coningsby?
RP: Coningsby. Six years in total.
CB: Were you?
RP: Including the detachments obviously and including my seven months in the Falklands.
CB: So what years are we talking about? We’re talking about you started in —
RP: Well, I joined the air force in ’78. So I would have gone to Coningsby the end of ‘79. Very end of 1979.
CB: Ok.
RP: Yeah.
CB: So you left there in ‘85/6
RP: Yeah. And then did —
CB: Then where?
RP: The remainder of my time at RAF Wattisham, Suffolk.
CB: Right.
RP: Again, that was on Phantoms.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And in Wattisham as I say, a chunk of that time was in engine records and that’s purely because I wanted to go to college and do a day release and gained a Diploma in Business and Finance.
CB: Oh.
RP: Which was —
CB: Which — where did you do that?
RP: Quite unusual. Which was what? Sorry?
CB: Which college?
RP: West Suffolk College in Bury St Edmunds.
CB: Diploma in — ?
RP: Business and Finance.
CB: Business and Finance.
RP: Yeah. Because it was clear to me that apart from the Battle of Britain Flight the most enjoyable time I had in the air force was in the Falklands. And it was clear that I wasn’t a career person for the forces. And that’s largely because of my personality. I didn’t like taking orders too much and also because my friends from grammar school were going in their direction and I was thinking well, hang on a minute they’re making lots of money and making a thing for themselves and my best mate at school was doing very well in business and I thought well I can. I was better than him. So, you know, I’ve done my time playing at it. Now, I’ll come out and get a proper job. And, and the fact is that nowadays things are much more serious with Afghanistan and Iraq and all the other conflicts that are going on whereas then, you know there was, ok they had the QRA Quick Reaction Alert because of the Russian incursions.
CB: Yeah.
RP: Every couple of days. But other than that there wasn’t any real threat other than the obvious the Falklands.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So, I think we were just, we were going through a period at the time. Looking back I think we were just playing at it. And the usual exercises. Sirens going off in the middle of the night. And all the old soaks who used to work in Germany saying, ‘Well, that’s not like real life in Germany. You’re just playing at it.’ [laughs] So, so —
CB: Tell us more about the Falklands. There you were still flying out of Port Stanley were you?
RP: Yes. Yeah. I, I spent a week at Ascension Island waiting until the Royal Engineers had extended the runway and then flew down on the air bridge on a Hercules from Ascension down to Port Stanley. Very exciting times they were. We refuelled twice on the way down. And, and then with the Phantoms we set up the air defence ring. I thoroughly enjoyed it actually in the Falklands.
CB: How long were you there?
RP: Seven months.
CB: Seven months.
RP: It’s only designed to be, I was told it was going to be four months but it turned out to be seven months. But no. I enjoyed that. And then [pause] yes.
CB: And that was when? This, this is ’83 or —
RP: ’83.
CB: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. ’83.
CB: After the conflict in other words.
RP: It was after the conflict. Because obviously, you know the Phantoms couldn’t use the runway until it had been extended. So, you know, the first couple of months was spent on an old ship that was moored in the harbour. That’s where I lived. Which I’ve got photographs of that. And then the remainder we actually lived on what was an ex-prison. Floating prison. Again, in the harbour. The Coastell they called it.
CB: What was the comfort like there?
RP: Not great. It was better than the ship. A lot of it, a lot of the discomfort was created by the angst between the army and the air force.
CB: In what way?
RP: A lot of the usual banter because the army squaddies at the time weren’t particularly bright and we used to take the mickey out of them and wind them up which made them very angry and they were fitter than the average RAF. So some of the things they used to do to wind us up were not very nice.
CB: It was a double wind up.
RP: It was. And for example, for example when, when I left the Falklands I sailed back to Ascension Island on the SS Uganda.
CB: Yes.
RP: An ex-hospital ship. And that was a really nice trip actually because I don’t know how long it could have taken us to get there but it, we took a lot longer than we needed to just to coincide our arrival at Ascension Island with the VC10 flight home. We only left Port Stanley on the 1st of January. I remember that. We left into a raging storm in the roaring forties.
CB: Yeah.
RP: Which lasted a couple of days. As soon as we got out of that into the sunshine mid-South Atlantic we throttled right back on the Uganda and then just cruised up at 4 knots up to Ascension Island. But going through the roaring forties I put a note on the notice board saying there was a snooker competition. When the ship was pitching and rolling all over the place. And yeah, I got a dozen army guys signed up for a snooker competition.
CB: [laughs] Well it fits doesn’t it? Yes.
RP: So, and then we got to Ascension Island and lots of stories there and even when we were just anchored at Ascension on the ship for a couple of days before I picked up the VC10. And you could, looking over the side of the side of the ship you could see the sea water piranhas. You weren’t allowed to go swimming off the ship because they were quite dangerous piranhas. The standard thing at the time was to get a bucket with an apple, drop it over the side. All these piranhas would go into it and then you’d pull it back up, pull the rope back up. And there was one Polish army guy who [laughs] I don’t know why I used to wind these guys up but I know he went down to the toilet to use the, and he was sat on, and I got this piranha, razor teeth and I’ve got a picture of one of them there and I just threw it over the top of the toilet door and this thing’s flapping around the toilet. ‘That’s it. I’m going to kill you.’ Usual antics that you know.
CB: Yeah.
RP: When you go.
CB: That forces people do.
RP: That forces people do.
CB: Disgraceful behaviour [laughs]
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And then he was doubly upset because when we left the ship to get on to the VC10 we left via helicopter. Whirlwind. And all the bags were in the net that was underslung under this Whirlwind. And when it, the army, they took the army’s luggage to be taken off the underslung net actually split and all their luggage dropped into the sea never to be seen again.
CB: Oh dear.
RP: Yeah.
CB: The piranhas ate the lot.
RP: We didn’t really laugh.
CB: No.
RP: So, so that was, yeah I enjoyed the Falklands. It was an eye opener for me.
CB: What was so distinctive about the Falklands from your point of view?
RP: Real life. It was, we weren’t playing at anything. It was real life and I went on a long weekend of what we called R & R because it was so noisy. Constantly noisy because the runway was made of PSP matting.
CB: Oh was it? Right.
RP: And it just vibrated every time —
CB: Right.
RP: Anything landed or took off.
CB: Pierced Steel Planking.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Just so — yeah.
RP: That’s right. And I took a team out because, because of the noise. There was one particular day off we had and I said, ‘Let’s, you know, let’s go and explore some of the Falklands.’ So we had to get permission at the time because of all the minefields that were around. And that’s what we did. And I’ve got pictures here of coming across Argentinian ambulances that had been riddled with bullet holes and I’ve seen, actually it was our guys that did that. And there was the deal at the time was you find anything, any debris from the war, you know, to come back and report it to the authorities there. Which we did. Went back a week later and it had all been removed. So yeah it was the fact that this was suddenly real life and you know.
CB: And were the Argentinians actually trying to probe in the air?
RP: Oh yes.
CB: All the time were they? So the Phantoms were busy.
RP: Oh yes. Yeah. And, and yeah and it actually taught me a lot about people as well. About how, how, what’s the different, how people can turn into something different in that type of situation where, you know there were a lot of people were actually hoping it would start up again to give them some action. And I was thinking you know this isn’t, this isn’t something to be proud of. But a lot of people were actually so bloodthirsty and so — what’s the word? Geared up to get back involved.
CB: What about the locals? What was their, what was the relationship with the Falklanders?
RP: That was fine. Yeah. That was all, they were all very grateful obviously. And just going on just my long weekend away to West Falkland. You know we flew there in a little puddle jumper plane and met a lot of the locals. And I remember we flew there, then a helicopter took us to some remote part of West Falkland and dropped us there and gave us a map and said, ‘Your nearest bit of civilisation is twelve miles that direction. We’ll see you there at dinner.’ It was great fun. It really was. Are you warm enough? Are you cold?
Other: I’m alright.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So I distinctly remember that being great fun. And suddenly the, that’s what it was. Rest and recuperation. A break from the noise and the vibration. So yeah I loved that. But —
CB: In the meantime they were building the new airfield were they?
RP: Yeah. At —
CB: Mount Pleasant.
RP: Mount Pleasant. Yeah. Well that, work on it had just started there when I was there. We were still operating from Port Stanley.
CB: So fast forward now. You come back on the VC10. Then what? Back to the grind.
RP: Back the grind, yeah. And back to Coningsby. And I was only there another few months at Coningsby before being posted to Wattisham. So my time on the Battle of Britain of Britain Flight was actually before. Just before going to the Falklands.
CB: Ok. So let’s just talk about that. So the Battle of Britain Flight had been formed a few years before. It was stationed at Coningsby.
RP: Yeah.
CB: What did you do for it? What? How was, how was it manned from an engineering point of view?
RP: Well, what happened was I worked for the Aircraft Servicing Flight which was positioned at the next hangar to the Battle of Britain flight. And I was always interested in the aircraft of the Battle of Britain Flight. Largely because again, you know through discussions with my father and the propeller aircraft that he used to fly in and so on. So I had good friends who worked on the Battle of Britain flight. So what clinched it for me was me pleading to actually get a joy ride on the Lancaster. Which, you know, I did. It allowed me to, in fact coincidentally that was flying to Wattisham to do a display and then flying back again. So yeah, I just went along to enjoy the ride if you like and got hooked there and then. And made it well known that I’d like to be either seconded or posted to the BBMF and it worked because when this role became apparent they came to me and said, ‘Would you like to do it?’ Which is, obviously I said yes. And that was to rebuild a number of, or strip down and rebuild a number of Merlin engines [coughs] pardon me, that came back from Spain. Then they could be spare engines for the Hurricane, the Spitfire and the Lancaster that all used the same engine.
CB: You mention Spain. So how does that come into the equation?
RP: Well, these engines were found in a cave in Spain. Each one. They were crated up and the story was that these were Merlin, Rolls Royce Merlin engines and the original intention was for them to be used in Messerschmitt airframes.
CB: Which they were. The Bouchon.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So that’s how these engines became, were found in Spain.
CB: Who found the engines?
RP: I don’t know to be honest with you. I don’t know.
CB: And why were they in a cave?
RP: Well, they were hidden there. I think, from memory I think it was the Spanish Air Force that were looking to acquire Messerschmitt airframes and put the Rolls Royce Merlins in to them.
CB: Or they built the air frames under licence with Merlin engines but just curious how the engines came to be in a cave.
RP: I don’t know the history of that to be honest. I don’t know.
CB: Where was the cave?
RP: I didn’t actually go to the Spanish location.
CB: Ah.
RP: So I’m not sure where it was.
CB: Right.
RP: These were just brought back.
CB: What condition were they in? How were they packed?
RP: Visually, visually they looked in really good condition.
CB: In crates or what were they?
RP: In crates, yeah. They were crated up. Lots and lots of grease on them. Protective grease. They weren’t pitted. They looked like they’d weathered their time in the crates and in Spain very well. And myself and my boss if you like, I don’t know if any of these names are familiar with you. My boss on the Battle of Britain Flight was a chap called Chief Technician Pete Russian. He was, he was a real enthusiast. Pete Russian. Yeah. He was a real enthusiast. Another interesting fact about my time which I just thought of actually in the Battle of Britain Flight. They obviously, we obviously got to know a lot of civilian operators of Spitfires of which there were quite a number. And I just, it’s just dawned on me this, there was one Italian who had a Spitfire and a number of our guys went across to do some work on it to restore it to get it back in to flying condition. And I left just as that was being completed and I, when I went to visit Just Jane only a few years ago there was an engineer there who basically did what I did but Just Jane and he recognised my name. He recognised my name and he’d seen my name on the paperwork because he used to be on the Battle of Britain flight. He replaced me actually. And I actually asked him whatever happened to that Italian Spitfire? He said it was actually flown to the UK and then on to the US by one of the, by one of our favourite pilots at the time. A chap called Paul Day.
CB: Oh.
RP: Do you know — ?
CB: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. He was a great guy. Had some laughs with him. I’ve got some stories about him as well. Anyway [laughs] but yeah. Apparently, yeah I was pleased to learn that he flew that all in one go as well apparently. From Italy back to Coningsby.
CB: Amazing. The Merlins are of interest because of course the Lancasters had Merlins. As other aircraft did as well.
RP: Yeah.
CB: As you said. So what was the task with these engines? You got them in crates and they’re greased with greaseproof paper and whatever else they put on them.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: What did you do with them and how were they then handled?
RP: The idea was, was to have as many of these become a spare engine available to use on the Hurricane and Spitfire and Lancaster as possible. As I say as many to use because some of these did actually have some components missing so we, I remember we had to cannibalise a couple of the engines to get some of the missing components to make other ones complete. So that was, that was the task and it, it took quite a long time as well because some were found to be, whilst they were in generally good condition there were some cracks in them. So we had to get some NDT Non-Destructive Testing crack experts to come in. Once I’d stripped the engine down they would come in and, and just check the integrity of the components that we got.
CB: Fluorescein dye.
RP: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. There were various techniques that they used. One of which was that.
CB: And do you know which mark of engine they were, Merlin? Out of interest.
RP: No. I can’t remember to be honest.
CB: And whether they were suitable for all of the aircraft.
RP: Oh yeah.
CB: You had to be selective.
RP: No. No. No. Each one could be made suitable for any of the Merlin engine ones. Obviously not the Griffon Spitfire but, but for the —
CB: The [unclear] Spitfires and the Lancaster.
RP: And the Lancaster.
CB: Ok. So where was this work done?
RP: At the main hangar in Coningsby and also at Woodhall Spa. The engines were shipped to Woodhall Spa when complete. And whilst they were waiting for their turn to be stripped down that’s where we kept them.
CB: Then where did they go? Where were they stored after they’d been reworked?
RP: There was another. That was split between Coningsby and Woodhall Spa. I do remember that space was at an absolute premium. And I think obviously the Battle of Britain flight now has got a lot of focus and priority and, and at the time it was less so. It was the, it was the Phantoms and the Rolls Royce engines that you know took priority everywhere. So it was like we could, we were allocated a corner and then squeezed even further into the corner.
CB: So how were you doing this work? Were you interspersing it with your activities? With the Aircraft Servicing Flight?
RP: No. No. I was seconded.
CB: This was a, this was a specific task.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. I was they said to me, ‘If you want to take this job it will be dedicated to the Battle of Britain Flight,’ you know, ‘Leave the Phantoms behind.’ Absolutely fine by me so that’s what I did. Thoroughly enjoyed it. And, and what, not brought it to an end but for me was when I was told I was heading off to the Falklands. To —
CB: Right.
RP: Think about Phantoms again.
CB: Right. So the engines had been reworked. How were they run up after that? Were there special benches to run them up?
RP: No. No.
CB: Or were they never run?
RP: They were never run on a bench. When we, once we’d completed an engine we had to schedule it in to be run up on the Lancaster left inboard. Number two position. We had no facility to actually even start it.
CB: So it was always tested. Was each engine tested in the Lancaster then?
RP: Yes. Absolutely. Each engine was tested in the Lancaster.
CB: On the ground or did they fly it as well?
RP: Both.
CB: Right.
RP: But extensive tests on the ground first in accordance with, you know the manuals at, at the time in terms of you know the specific tests we had to do on that engine having started it and fired it up. So much was great fun. And then when it passed those tests it was, it was good to go for a an air test.
CB: So how much ground testing was there? How did it work and what period would it be? Would it just be ten minutes or were they running for a half an hour?
RP: No. No. No. No. No.
CB: Or what did they do on the ground?
RP: No. Testing my memory now. But it was, it was a good couple of hours.
CB: Oh was it?
RP: Oh yes. Yeah. And if I remember right what we did was rebuild one of the engines. Then start to rebuild another one. So we weren’t having to take out the number two engine on the Lancaster and therefore ground it each time we had one built. We, we’d have a couple of engines ready for test and when there was a gap in the, in the display over the winter then we could take the left inboard out and ground test both engines.
CB: So when it did the air test was that because it was going somewhere and they were comfortable with it?
AP: Well it —
CB: How long did the air test go on?
RP: The procedure was that it had to be ground tested first.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And then before it could be signed up as, off as operational. It had to go through the air test as well. You know things like they had to shut the engine down mid-flight and then be able to restart it again without any problems. And some things that you had to do on air test that can’t be done on the ground.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So, no that was quite an exciting time but each air test again lasted an hour. Three quarters of an hour to an hour. And on some occasions the engines because of the pressures to meet displays some of the air tests took place enroute to a display and the display actually happened subject to successful test of the engine mid-flight.
CB: But as they had been properly worked on by yourselves there was no real reason to think that they wouldn’t work.
RP: That’s right. Yeah. And from memory I didn’t ever have an engine I built fail an air test.
CB: So there were nineteen originally. Were all of them air worthy in the end?
RP: Well, I rebuilt, I’m trying to remember now how many. Probably half of those before I got the call to say, ‘You’re off to the Falklands.’ So as far as I know this other chap that I met on Just Jane he took over from me. Where he came from I’m not quite sure. Not a name I knew at the time. So somebody else carried on my work to be honest.
CB: The BBMF have more aircraft now then they did then. But what spares of engines did they have? Was there already quite a bank of engines?
RP: No. No. There was —
CB: Or were they getting desperate?
RP: They were getting desperate and Pete Russian and myself we went up to Prestwick. I remember that trip because there were quite a number of spares and engines lying around in Prestwick. But it really was literally going into a hangar, finding an engine that, you know or components that looked pretty much complete and saying we’ll have those and transporting them down. So, no. It really was looking under every stone for spares and for spare engines. And I remember bringing a couple back from Prestwick with him. [ coughs] pardon me. And in terms of components we were forever going to what they called rob the gate guards. There were a lot of Spitfires and Hurricanes on the entrance gates to stations. And I remember distinctly the number of them had still had air coolers for instance. And we went to Benson. Went to a number of places to, somebody had a register of what gate guards were where and just what components were still on it. But yeah we were forever going to various stations, taking the panels off, robbing the bits, putting the panels back on.
CB: Well, they weren’t going to fly again so it didn’t matter.
RP: Exactly. But that’s how desperate we were.
CB: Not then.
RP: That’s how desperate we were for spares.
CB: I’m stopping just now.
[recording paused]
RP: Yeah. There was one particular occasion when we were about to do engine runs on the Lancaster and it was one early afternoon. And we were just getting ready to do this and I took a phone call in the crew room from the guard room. And the chap in the guard room said, ‘I’ve got two guys here who used to work on Lancasters during the war and they’ve just turned up on spec. One lives in the UK and it’s his brother from Canada. And they’ve just turned up on spec to say is there any chance of having a look at the, you know the Battle of Britain Flight. The Lancaster.’ So I said, ‘Yeah, I don’t see why not.’ I checked it with Pete Russian my boss and he was fine. So we jumped in the Land Rover and picked them up. And a lot of the visitors that we used to get on the Battle of Britain Flight were ex-aircrew or people who, everyone seemed to claim to be an ex pilot. But these two guys turned up. Very genuine. Clearly ground crew, and got quite emotional. And at the time I remember saying to the guys, ‘We were just about to do engine runs on the Lancaster. Do you want to come on the flight deck while we do it?’ And there were tears streaming down their face. So we did the engine runs and the guy from Canada particular, particularly, you know we did what we needed to do and I said, ‘Can you remember how to do this?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ And so with the engines turning we actually had him sat in the front left seat. He was crying his eyes out with nostalgia as he was going through some of the engine runs himself. And that was purely they decided to have a day out whilst he was visiting the UK and it turned into that. And they were so grateful that they insisted that evening on taking us all to the pub and buying everybody food and drink all night long.
CB: Fantastic.
RP: What a night that was.
CB: What’s your perception and recollection of people’s approach to the Lancaster? The ground personnel.
RP: In terms of what?
CB: Well, you’ve just talked about the emotion of these men. But what about the people on the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight? Did they have a very strong attachment? Some of it based on history of being with the aircraft.
RP: Yeah. Absolutely. And from talking to lots of visitors at the time you know that was very much the case during the war as well where the ground crew were passionate about their aeroplanes. Their components. Their, the work they’d done. And I suppose it’s like I know a lot of people who are passionate about the old car they keep in the garage. At the time the ground crew were passionate about the quality of the work they did and the preservation and looking after and protection of these old aeroplanes. And yeah, they took, they loved them. And the first thing that hits you when you get in these is the smell of the old leather and and so on. And you just, you become attached to it. Much more so than say the Phantoms. Yeah. Because you know they were at the time a dying breed and we just wanted to make sure that you know we did everything we could to keep them flying. And as I say the attachment was much more so than the modern, at the time, Phantoms.
CB: How did these two men describe their experiences?
RP: Well I remember them saying that they, because we were talking about this very subject in the pub. And they were saying that that was exactly how you know they remembered it during the war. When obviously they used to call them the kites. And when any, any of their kites didn’t come back because it had suffered, you know a shootdown or something everyone was very saddened. And this is what they were telling us. Everyone was very sad about the crew that had been lost. But actually just as sad about the aeroplane that had been lost as well because it was a, you know a piece of, a piece of art. And that was how they regarded it.
CB: And how did they describe their attitude to when the crew bent them?
RP: Anger. Absolute anger [laughs] And that happened on a fairly regular, you know basis. Whether they bent them on landing or they came back a bit shot up, you know. It was almost like blaming the crew for not being able to avoid being shot at. But yes it was exactly the same perception, attitude and connection with, with the aeroplanes.
CB: And how did you gauge their relationship with the aircrew?
RP: Total respect. The aircrew were always seen to be a bit aloof anyway. As they were with the Phantoms but, and rightly so, you know they were the aircrew and the pilots and you know there were every reason to be seen as godlike if you like. Total respect but also more respect of the fact that a lot of people took off at the start of a mission and didn’t return. So not just respect about the, you know the aircrew being aircrew and being the, you know, the pilot, navigator and so on but it was just about you know the sacrifice that these people often made when the ground crew didn’t. They’d just turn up for work again the following day. And I think that was, that was the respect bit.
CB: And so you saw them at Coningsby and then you were at the boozer afterwards.
RP: Yeah.
CB: And what other things did they talk about? These two chaps. In terms of their experiences in the war.
RP: I’m now struggling to remember but they they did talk about, a lot of discussion about the lives that were lost. About the aircraft that didn’t return. The speed of manufacture and the speed of deliverance of replacement aircraft as well. The whole country was pulling together and produced these things off the production line at the rate they were going at. That was very admirable as we say. Both of them, even the chap who was in from Canada who were both British. They both talked a lot about the, you know, the Americans arriving and the effect that had. More of the perceptions than what they saw the reality. Pinching all our girls and all of that sort of thing. And —
CB: Overpaid, oversexed and over here.
RP: That’s it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, they were just reminiscing themselves and probably remembering things as they were reminiscing themselves.
CB: Quite. Yeah.
RP: But yeah it was, it was on a serious note it was respect for the aircrew because of the possibility of them just not coming back. Now that, that sort of respect I didn’t find in any of the Phantom squadrons. Because it was pretty much guaranteed and as I say there wasn’t really another conflict on the go at the time apart from the Falklands. So that, that was a very different experience that I valued on the BBMF to be honest.
CB: Yeah. I just wondered whether they also talked about their everyday lives on the airfield and what they were doing.
RP: Yes. They, they talked about that. They lived in fear of the station warrant officer.
CB: Didn’t we all?
RP: About being hauled in if you failed to salute or weren’t wearing, you know, the tie in the right way or, and in in that respect that was no different from being at Halton or Swinderby. That was exactly the same to be honest.
CB: So going back to your own experience you flew on a number of occasions in a Lancaster.
RP: Yes.
CB: Why would you do that and how many hours did you?
RP: I think I notched, can I just turn that off?
CB: Ok.
RP: I notched up. Oh sorry.
CB: It’s alright.
RP: No. I flew in the Lancaster on many occasions. And found that great for my preferred location because obviously on air test or just going along as a passenger once we’d finished the air test was in the mid-upper turret. That was, that was fine. Except that it was full of holes because it had been stop drilled. Where there was a hole in the crack in the Perspex they’d drilled it to stop the crack extending. So if you were flying through cloud or anything you did get a bit wet. I flew in the rear gunner’s position many times as well. That was quite interesting.
CB: How did you feel sitting in the isolation of the rear gunner position?
RP: Well, you couldn’t help but, you know, imagine what it must have been like during the war. Especially at night as well. In freezing conditions. So, yeah, I mean it’s an experience that you know most of the population don’t get to have but it was, as I say you couldn’t help but imagine what it must have been like. There were some hilarious moments as well. And I remember one of the most memorable ones at the time was flying in a three ship with the Spitfire, Hurricane and, and Lancaster and I was, on this particular occasion I was in the rear gunner’s position and flying along. Flying to Blackpool actually for something and it was always the station commander’s prerogative to pilot the Spitfire. And it was Group Captain Bill Wratten who was flying the Spitfire and I was just actually watching him and he threw the canopy back because it was a nice, you know, sunny day. And his chart — straight out the top of the cockpit. And he happened to be doing the navigation for the three ship. So we got to Blackpool and had a severe warning that if ever this was mentioned back at Coningsby there would be repercussions.
CB: As you do.
RP: Yeah. And in those days I do remember part of the standard equipment on the flight deck on the Lancaster was a pair of high powered binoculars.
CB: For the beach.
RP: No. It was so that when we got lost which we did regularly we could find a motorway and see which junction we were at. So binoculars were road atlases. I remember one where one of the old aircrew who’d died, it was his last dying wish that his ashes would be scattered over a beach in Skegness.
CB: Oh.
RP: And we did this on route to a display. And, and Jacko Jackson said, ‘Right. We’ve got literally a minute to fly around the beach.’
CB: Took it down did he?
RP: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. And one of my oppos, the air frame guy whose name escapes me. It was his job to take the top off the ‘chute and put the ashes down and he couldn’t get the top off the urn. Jacko said, ‘Have those ashes gone yet?’ So he just chucked the old urn down. And it hit the papers when the kids were playing football on the beach with this urn when someone suddenly realised what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And you know and I do remember once flying through bad weather. We did get lost and Pete Russian insisted we all come out of our positions and sit with our backs against the main spar. Because it did get quite [pause] in fact he got in, I know he’s been around all over the place. He got in a bit of trouble because he always refused to fly in a Lancaster until it had done three or four flights after a major service. Just in case. But —
CB: So the practical consideration from an engineering point of view of flying in the Lancaster was what? The justification for the engineers to go in it.
RP: Well at the, from, well obviously it was a display so for example the Jersey air display was one of the biggest on the calendar at the time and that lasted for what? Three days. So had to have the, you know the ground crew just in case there were any problems because it took off or landed probably four or five times during that display. So just in case there were any problems there they had to have [pardon me ] ground crew to cover it. That was usually what it was for.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And Farnborough. That was another big one that we had to fly to. So, so that was the reason for the ground crew going.
CB: And whilst you were flying in the Lancaster were you always in a crew position or did you move about?
RP: No. Once you’d picked your position or nominated a position then that’s where you stayed. Unless, as I say, like the occasion when we were told to sit with our backs against the main spar. But, but no there was very little room in a Lancaster to move around. Normally if you did move around you banged your head on the framework anyway. So it was far better to stay there.
CB: Yeah. And what was the basic crew of BBMF for the Lancaster? The pilot and who else?
RP: Now then. Pilot and the number two pilot obviously in the right hand seat. The flight engineer. I’m trying to remember now. Radio operator. Navigator. And then whoever else was on board from, from the ground crew. I know, I know there were some characters there. Bandy Bill was one of them. Bow Legged Bill. He’d actually baled out from Lancasters twice during the war. Once over Belgium. So they all had stories to tell. But whilst we were on the Battle of Britain flight there was, there was one very memorable occasion when the Mosquito came in and obviously a crew of two were the visiting Mosquito crew from Hawarden. And the pilot and the engineer there and the engineer met up with Bandy Bill who they’d known from wartime and he decided to stay in the mess overnight. The Mosquito had to go back so the pilot of the Mosquito said, ‘Well, I’ve got a spare seat going back if anybody wants to come along for the ride and then make their own way back to Coningsby from Hawarden,’ Near Chester, ‘You know, can do.’ And in all fairness, I can tell you it was between me and Pete Russian the chief tech. Pete didn’t pull rank. He said, ‘Let’s flip a coin. One of us will go.’ And he won it so he went in the Mosquito.
CB: Fantastic.
RP: And the Chipmunk followed and brought him back. So that was just something I just remembered. Yeah.
CB: What’s your most memorable time in the RAF would you say?
RP: In the RAF? It must be flying along in a Lancaster and with the Hurricane and Spitfire either side. I enjoyed the Falklands but nothing equal to that feeling of, you know like not many people are going to get to do this. And I feel I’ve been very privileged, I think. Yeah. Absolutely.
CB: So after you qualified you were a junior technician. How did your rank move during your nine years engagement?
RP: Not very much. I obviously qualified as a corporal and then passed my sergeant’s exam. And just as I passed my sergeant’s exam that’s when I decided to leave because came my nine year point and they said to me, ‘Do you want to stay on?’ And I said, ‘No. I don’t think so. My liver can’t cope with it.’ So I decided to leave.
CB: So what was the choice for you when leaving? Of career.
RP: Well, I always knew what I wanted to do and that was to go into a sales role. Only because my mates at school had been, had got a nine year head start on me now. And the chap who was, I sparred against at school he was in a sales role and his area was Asia and Hong Kong. So I thought if he can do it I can. So that’s what I did. So I always knew what I wanted to do. I’d been to college. Become qualified with this Diploma in Business and Finance. And I spent, organised my resettlement time to go and work with a company and take my first sales role which is what I did.
CB: Where? Where was it?
RP: Geographically or —
CB: Well, the company.
RP: The company was called Pitney Bowes. And they sold office equipment and franking machines and things. And, and I went into that role. Technically I’d not even, I was top sales person there after three months and technically I’d not even left the air force. But it was simply because I just did what I was told to do and I was told if you do this, this and this and say these words you’ll be successful. And that proved to be true so I thought, happy days.
CB: And how did that progress?
RP: Very well. Yeah. I did very well with them. Won lots of sales awards. Overseas trips and so on. That branch, and that was working out of the Peterborough branch. We lived in Suffolk at the time. And that [pause] I moved from there to a company called Lex. The car group. But on, I was on the truck side. I was selling contract hire of trucks. And rapidly progressed through the ranks of Lex and to the training division. Trained up new people. Had an affiliation for sales and training and management and within a few years was running their management, leadership and sales training division. Five thousand people. And that’s been my forte ever since.
CB: So how long did you work for them?
RP: I was with Lex for eight years. Left there to set up my own business.
CB: Which is what?
RP: Well, at that time it was my own training company. Doing management training, sales training, leadership. Built that up. Sold it.
CB: What was that called?
RP: Percival Field Associates. And that was because I’d, one of my trainers was Chris Field and I took him from Lex. We set the business up. And since then we’ve had several other businesses that we’ve started or bought and sold.
CB: All in training? Or were you doing other things?
RP: A lot of training. A lot of it very closely geared to recruitment as well because my wife she was a nurse at Nocton Hall when I met her and left the air force to become a midwife. She did midwifery training at Basingstoke. A couple of years later she was gardening, fell out of a tree and broke her back. Which, she was ok. She had to have a laminectomy but it put an end to her midwifery days. So she went into business and rose to some very senior ranks in recruitment. So her recruitment and my training went very well together. So, you know that’s, that’s how it works.
CB: So what’s your business now?
RP: My business now is, my main business is Jigsaw Medical Services. And that’s purely because, you mentioned Oxford Brooke University. I’ve got a nephew who is twenty five at the end of this month. But he trained as a paramedic and, and he comes from Cheshire as well. And while he was training at Oxford Brooke he lived with us here and he was attached to Stoke Mandeville Hospital for his practical. And as he was coming towards the end of his paramedic course, you know, we said to him, ‘What are you going to do? You know. ‘Because your colleagues are going to be qualified as a paramedic and then they’ll do ambulance shifts and work for an ambulance trust. Do you want to do that or shall we pool all our resources and experience and set up a company that does it?’ So that’s what we did. And we financed the start of the business and that was what three and a half years ago and we currently own seventy ambulances, and —
CB: Do you really?
RP: And we, we support various NHS trusts. Yeah. We provide ambulances. Fully crewed with paramedics, ambulance technicians and emergency care assistants. So he’s got the paramedic knowledge. We financed him and its going great guns. We just recently sponsored a sporting event which was a charity event which lasted a month and involved lots of celebrities. So last week we were in Sicily working with Richard Branson and his family because its Richard Branson’s son organised this event. We provided all the medical cover. It was basically, they called it the Strive Challenge. A charity that started at the base of the Matterhorn at Zermatt and went down to Mount Etna in Sicily. All of which had to be under your own steam. So it was hiking, walking, cycling. The core team did the whole run but lots of celebrities went out and did two or three days at a time and they were raising money for this, for this charity called Big Change. So we went out to the start of it at Zermatt five weeks ago and then it ended in Mount Etna last week. So, and that was good for our PR because lots of endorsement.
CB: Huge exposure.
RP: From, from Richard himself. I was put in charge of his, looking after his mum, his ninety three year old mum for the day in Zermatt. His son Sam, his nephew Noah, his daughter Holly, his wife Joan. Yeah. We just moved in with them for a week.
CB: Fantastic.
RP: A bit of an experience. So, so yeah we’re just growing that Jigsaw Medical Services at a rapid rate at the moment. It does training. It does a lot for the military. We employ a lot of military people. People coming out of special forces and being trained up as paramedics themselves. So that’s what I’m heavily involved in now.
CB: How do ex-forces people fare in getting jobs after leaving the forces do you think?
RP: Very well. We have got a lot of ex-forces who are trained since leaving to become paramedics because that’s not recognised within the military. And I think it’s fair to say they are our best ambulance staff. Best paramedics. They really are and that’s because they’re very, they’re just used to being very thorough. Sticking to the rules. Following procedures. And just going the extra mile. And, you know we have a base in Stowe. Now, we, you probably know Stowe Castle. Yeah. That’s one of our offices and we have ten ambulances operating from there around the clock. And in fact I was up there just an hour before you arrived here, talking to some of the crews. And the jobs they get. You know, if you phone 999 you might get a South Central Ambulance turn up. NHS ambulance. Or it might be one of ours. Everybody just assumes it’s the NHS. But we comply. In fact, our standards have to be higher than the Trust anyway to avoid any sort of criticism or anything like that. So our levels of compliance and so on are great. But you wouldn’t know whether it was a Jigsaw Medical Services one or a South Central. And a lot of these people who’ve been the subject of an emergency call out for whatever reason come and visit. Send letters in of thanks and appreciation. And they never knew that actually they’d been looked after and treated by somebody who was still in the SAS or SBS or making that transition to civilian life. They just think it’s a regular, you know ambulance technician or paramedic. But some of these guys have seen more service and trauma then, you know than you would believe.
CB: Yeah.
RP: But they just, they obviously don’t talk about that.
CB: No.
RP: They just get on with the job.
CB: Just a final question. Going back to these engineers you showed around the —
RP: Yeah.
CB: BBMF Lancaster. What did they do after the war? Did you get a feel for how they progressed from the RAF? So the war finished. What did they do?
RP: From what I remember they didn’t do anything spectacular. Both of them. They left. After the war they left the service. I can’t remember exactly what they were doing but it was sort of middle manager roles and careers thereafter. Nothing spectacular. Nothing.
CB: Based on engineering?
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Based on engineering. I think one of the chaps had his own small company but he ran it as a lifestyle company rather than, you know a desire to grow and sell or anything like that. Yeah. They were happy enough and really nice chaps but they were happy to just do more of the same day after day. You know, content with their lot if you like.
CB: Thank you very much. That’s really interesting.
[recording paused]
CB: A bit more memories then.
RP: Yeah. One final memory. We were at Jersey at the end of the display. And we were just leaving Jersey and we were all in our positions on the Lancaster getting ready to go and the Red Arrows took off before us. And I don’t know if you know Jersey.
CB: We’ve been.
RP: You’ve been. But the end of the runway is above the beach and I can’t remember what the beach is called now but the Red Arrows left in groups of three and as they took off they got to the end of the runway and then dropped down out of sight as they dropped down almost to beach level. And then you’d see them reappear again as they start to climb. So it was their bit of showing off which the Red Arrows did on a regular basis obviously. And I remember Jacko Jackson saying, ‘If they can do that so can we.’ And oh my God. And there was a deathly silence. And he said, ‘Right. Rob,’ he said to me, he said, ‘Will your left inboard engine take plus fourteen boost?’ I said, ‘Well [laughs] it sounds like we’re about to find out.’ So that’s what we did. Got to the end of the runway but in a very gently way dropped down a bit, out of sight a bit, and then plus fourteen boost on all four engines and then it climbed out after that. And nervous times. And he said, ‘Yes. Well done, A good engine.’ And I hate to think what would have happened if it had let go at the time.
CB: You’ve raised an important point here because in the war the Lancasters flew with one pilot. And the flight engineer next to him. And the take-off would start with the pilot controlling the throttles and then the engineer would take over. So could you just explain your comments there. So there is the term, ‘Pushing it through the gate.’ Could you just explain how that works and what the boost system is?
RP: Well, it’s, the boost system it just taking it to max RPM. And you know on an aeroplane and an engine that was forty years old at the time was quite a challenge to, it was almost like full throttle and red lining on a car. And that’s what they were doing at the time. But in terms of who controlled that, Squadron Leader Jackson was very much in charge as they say and he was the one. He was the controller. And —
CB: I’m really trying to get at what the aircraft, when it, what is the term, ‘the gate?’ Because in practical terms.
RP: I’m not familiar with that.
CB: Right. Well, so, right so the throttles would work normally up to a particular point and maximum power would be at, ‘the gate’ but you’d push it through to get extra more power. And so I just wondered if that was something you were conscious of.
RP: I’m struggling to think. I do remember —
CB: Because there was a limit to how far and how long you could fly the aircraft through ‘the gate.’
RP: Exactly. Yeah. I just remember that plus —
CB: And why would that be?
RP: Plus fourteen boost was, was the absolute, absolute maximum. As I say it was absolute full throttle in terms of thrust which as you say can only be done for a period of time. And that was an engine that I’d just rebuilt, fitted to the number two and of course the other engine, the other three had all been to plus fourteen boost previously.
CB: Yeah.
RP: This was the first time for this one.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And I just remember looking at the engine as we, as we were flying along thinking I just hope it hangs together [laughs] In fact we weathered out and we had to land at Northolt.
CB: Oh did you? Right.
RP: Because it was foggy. And that was another story because we all had duty free stashed away on the, on the Lancaster from Jersey. And then we had to land at Northolt because of the fog and get the train back to Coningsby and the duty free was confiscated by Customs.
CB: Very upsetting. Just back on the boost. What is the normal boost?
RP: If I remember right I think normal maximum is nine or ten.
CB: Right.
RP: Boost. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
RP: But I could be wrong on that.
CB: I know but it’s just a question of getting a perspective.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Good. And boost means what exactly?
RP: Again, I’m —
CB: We’re talking about superchargers are we?
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
RP: Yeah. It’s supercharge. It would be like the reheat on a, on a —
CB: Modern jet.
RP: On a modern jet. That would be the equivalent. You could reheat that.
CB: Yeah. Good analogy. Good. Thank you very much.
RP: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok. Talking about visitors to Coningsby.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: To the Battle of Britain Flight. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: I do remember we had on more than one occasion visitors from the Guinea Pig Club. People who’d been —
CB: We’ve interviewed two of those.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. They’re the people who had been burned.
RP: Exactly.
CB: Yes.
RP: And that was one that sticks in my memory. From the Guinea Pig Club. And also the famous story about a Spitfire that had taken off with a female person clinging to the tail plane. I remember her coming to visit as well.
CB: Did she?
RP: Yeah. So —
CB: So did she drape herself over the back of the Spitfire or not?
RP: I remember she, she sort of did in her old age. Just for the photographs. But yeah.
CB: Yeah. Terrifying experience.
RP: Some real characters. Yeah.
CB: Because the plane really did take off.
RP: Yeah.
CB: And it really did do the circuit.
RP: It did.
CB: And the pilot didn’t know she was on the back.
RP: Correct. Yeah. But the Guinea Pig Club. I remember those characters. You know, you had to have total respect for those characters.
CB: Did the Guinea Pig have any specific, what sort of specifics did he want to get in to with the Lancaster?
RP: No. They weren’t, they weren’t really doing that. It was more for the, it was just more for their annual, they had an annual visit if I remember right. And they were just treated very well in the mess.
CB: Right.
RP: I think they came along for that as much as, as, you know. All the questions they had they’d asked on previous occasions.
CB: Yes.
RP: They just came for their annual visit.
CB: Smashing. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert Andrew Percival
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APercivalRA161006
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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01:22:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
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Second generation
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Percival was the son of a Second World War pilot and so grew up with an interest in aviation. His application to join the RAF as aircrew was not successful so he chose the engineering / technician route in to the service. He was seconded to the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight where he worked on the aircraft and took part in displays. He had the difficulty of finding spares and new engines for the aircraft but also had the pleasure of meeting veterans from the Second World War who came to visit the Flight.
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Falkland Islands
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1979
ground personnel
Hurricane
Lancaster
RAF Coningsby
RAF Halton
RAF Wattisham
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1015/11304/PLeedhamHJL1801.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1015/11304/ALeedhamHJL181212.1.mp3
eca92a44a63ba05981df7098454718ac
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leedham, Bob
Herbert John Lewis Leedham
H J L Leedham
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Bob Leedham (b. 1922, 1183577, 160986 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 90 and 57 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Leedham, HJL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: This is an interview between International Bomber Command Centre volunteer Harry Bartlett with Mr Herbert, Bob, Leedham, who lives at Ashbourne in Warwickshire. He joined the RAF in 1940, but we’ll no doubt will come to that shortly. Bob, if I can just ask you what were you doing on, in the few years before the war?
BL: My family, my father was a skilled carpenter, but on my mother’s side, she had three brothers all of which were very keen engineers and one of which was exceptionally keen and he worked for a local motor company and he was involved in motor bike racing at Donnington, mainly, and it was him that inspired me with a heavy engineering interest, and consequently when I left school, I was educated in Burton on Trent, the dear old brewing place, I finished up there, I was, won a scholarship to be educated at the main system, which was the central system and the grammar school and so on in Burton and I survived that. And on leaving I decided my real choice was to follow my uncles as it were, into the motor trade, which I did. And I was trained fairly quickly as an apprentice in the motor trade and of course when the war started most of them were already on the reserve and they were the first people to be called up. So myself and a couple of my colleagues of my age, and at that time we are talking about an age of seventeen, sixteen to seventeen, I had already passed my driving test and was driving of course and we were left to run the very large garage very quickly after all the others had been called up, and so it was hands on experience with a vengeance. We were left to run the garage and carry on operations and consequently even a relatively short time I had a good engineering background. However, when I got to seventeen and a half, all my mates that I knew and went to school with and so on had all got into the air force, they’d volunteered in some way or other. In fact some of them were actually called up and I knew that sooner or later I would be called up as soon as I got to the age of I think it was eighteen or nineteen and the chances were that I would maybe put in to the Army. Well I had no interest whatsoever of going into the Army. My first choice was always the air force. Unknown to my parents, at seventeen and a half, I went over to the Assembly Rooms in Derby to the recruiting centre and signed up to join, but I had to give my age as eighteen. They probably accepted this with tongue in cheek knowing that I’d lied a little bit about my age. However, I was accepted and instructed to come for a medical a couple of days later. Very amusing and perhaps interesting thing was, that bearing in mind I had been brought up in a relatively conservative sort of area in Burton on Trent as opposed to big cities and so on, so we were living in a relatively closed environment, despite the fact we were all qualified, and highly qualified tradesmen then. So I went over to have the medical. There was about twenty of us lined up. The doctor came in, he says, ‘right, take your shirts off boys, I’m going to check your hearts.’ So he went along, checking everyone, all the way along, and when he got to the end he says, ‘Right, put your shirts on boys,’ then waited a few minutes, said, ‘drop your trousers then.’ I thought ‘drop my trousers!’, bloody hell! I’d never been exposed to anyone in my life before, you know! And I feel that at that moment I changed from being a boy to a man. That’s the way I felt about it, I couldn’t believe, having to drop my trousers and expose myself even to a doctor. That was the sort of background we were brought up in of course, in those days. It’s totally different now of course. So really from then on the next few days I was down at Cardington for the, attestation and so forth and then I was allocated for training. So initially because of my engineering background the RAF at that time were quite short of experienced engineering people, and they’d set up training units and so on but, they were very good from a theory point of view but nothing in the way of hands on. So I was immediately shuffled into training as a fitter 2E. But I wasn’t happy that, I wanted to fly. So it didn’t last long, and I managed to wiggle my way in to ITW at Blackpool, and found myself on a pilot’s course.
HB: ITW?
BL: ITW: Initial Training Wing.
HB: Right.
BL: Which was at Blackpool in those days and that’s where they carried out the tests as to whether you were suitable to fly in an aircrew capacity. So I was accepted to fly an aircrew capacity to be decided specifically by the selection board’s requirements. And the next thing was, at that time the pilot training was being geared up dramatically. The original pilots in the air force at the start of the war and going right up to probably about the end of 1941, were pre-war pilots, mostly people who’d come from quite wealthy backgrounds who could afford to train them as pilots and by the end of 1941, these were the people that the air force had to rely on in the early days. When I look back historically on some of the situations, bombing raids and that sort of thing using obsolete aircraft like Lysanders and stuff like that, it was dreadful really and by the end of ’41 most of these boys had disappeared: they’d either been shot down, been killed, they crashed or were POWs. Result was that there was a colossal demand for fully trained new aircrew. This was done from a pilot’s point of view in Canada, or America, or Southern Rhodesia as it was then, which is now Zimbabwe, of course. Those were the three, main three areas where the pilots would train from about 1941 onwards. And they set up very, very good systems. But there was a difference between Rhodesia trained and particularly American trained. The American instructors were extremely, quite different to us: they were very hard, very dedicated and they set up a system for training pilots, that if you didn’t go solo in twelve hours, you were thrown off the course. You were downgraded to either a navigator or a bomb aimer or anyone else that had any sort of background which would be useful to the air force, in my case an engineering background. And when you consider, you know, people, ex bank managers if you like, and people from a whole variety of trades in civilian life, there they were, shipped over to America to train as pilots and expected to go solo in twelve hours. Just dreadful really. However, that was the way the system worked. It wasn’t quite so severe in Canada, but nevertheless it was similar to the American system but the ones trained in Southern Rhodesia of course, it was very much more realistic, and they didn’t stick to any specific hours to go solo and things like that you see. So the result was when finely trained aircrew of any category then came back to the UK, the usual routine was Initial Training Wing and then on to type training unit and so on and find a way into things like Wellingtons and Hampdens and Lemingtons, er Wellingtons and things like that.
HB: Can I just take you back a little bit Bob? [Cough] excuse me. When you joined up, you started your initial training as a fitter.
BL: Yup.
HB: But you then went for aircrew training.
BL: Yes.
HB: Did you go to train as a flight engineer, or did you go to train as a pilot?
BL: No, I went to train as a pilot initially.
HB: Right. And where did, which you, where did you actually go train as a pilot?
BL: I went to 32 SFTS in Carbery Manitoba, Canada.
HB: Canada, right.
BL: But I didn’t make the twelve hours solo so I was downgraded, the same as three quarters of them. There were very few, at that time anyway, who were competent enough after twelve hours to go solo. So it was a very hard path really. I came back to the UK, together with many others, who’d been diverted then in to training as a navigator or a bomb aimer or a gunner – I’d forgotten that one – and, but in my particular case the fact that I had the engineering background, which they wanted, they downgraded me to co-pilot and flight engineer. So predominantly I was trained as a full flight engineer, despite the fact I was accepted that on aircraft for instance like the Stirling I had to act as co-pilot as well. So I had to take link training and all that. I was never allowed to take off and land, but I was there to relieve the main pilot and to act as co-pilot duties. And that applied pretty well throughout: Stirlings, Lancasters, Halifaxes and so on. So we were always virtually the number two so far as the mechanical operation of the aircraft was concerned. As opposed to the gunners who had their job to do, bomb aimer had his job to do and the navigator. A number of the early bomb aimers of course were also trained as type of navigators but very few of them flew as navigators, they flew mainly as usually as bomb aimer come front gunner. There was always a front turret, gun turret on the Lancs and the Stirlings and Halifaxes, so the bomb aimers were expected to man the front turret and also act as the bomb aimer so far as the targets were concerned. And the navigators of course, they did the actual navigation guidance to the pilots.
HB: So you came back to England and you went to do your flight engineer training for aircrew.
BL: Yes. At St. Athan.
HB: At, St Athan, right. So at the end of that training, where did you sort of stand in the scheme of things?
BL: I was at training, already I’d had my link training as a co-pilot as well, before I went to St Athan, when I left St Athan, fully qualified, the next thing then was to join a crew on either Lancs, Stirlings or Halifaxes. In fact in my particular case I was posted to Stradishall which was a main training base for Stirlings and then the crew of seven were created. There was nothing directed, they put us all in hangar and between ourselves we had to get to know each other and put ourselves together as a seven man crew, which is how it happened. Once that’s established as a crew then your flight training started, which we did at Stradishall of course, on the Stirlings in our particular case.
HB: Where did your, is it all in this hangar, did somebody come to you or did you think oh I like the look of him, I’ll go with him? Or? How did it work? What were the mechanics of it?
BL: It’s a variety really. Our captain, our skipper, was an ex Birmingham policeman and personally, personality was absolutely first class, but he was a strict disciplinarian being ex-police, of course, and so he was highly respected despite the fact he was definitely one of us, but very highly respected. And we got to know him, chatting away and he said well, he says ‘I’ve just come from OTU from Wellingtons,’ he says, ‘I’ve got a navigator and I probably have a bomb aimer.’ He says, ‘I’m looking for a couple of gunners and a flight engineer co-pilot to get the seven man crew together,’ and so from then on it was a question of who you knew and whether you thought they were capable, and see whether they were already in a crew or not that was how we all created seven together. It was done quite amicably, in various reasons, various forms, whether you knew each other or you say well I know old so-and-so, he’s a bloody good navigator, try and get him on our crew, you know, and that sort of thing. So we finished up as a very tight crew and it so happened, subsequently, that when we were doing our ops on the squadron, the camaraderie within the seven man crew was very tight indeed. The result was we found that we had seven first class crew members. Everyone worked together, helped each other and that was the way it went on the Stirlings. Unfortunately the Stirlings of course had a very bad reputation subsequently. The reason for this was because in its early days, [cough] it was built pre-war of course, a long way pre-war, and was a very good four engined heavy bomber when it was produced, extremely good, but unfortunately it came under the influence of the political decisions, the politicians came along and said that aircraft’s got a wingspan of a hundred and sixteen feet! We won’t get it in to the hangars at Cardington, they’re only a hundred feet, you’ll have to take sixteen feet off the wings. So, reluctantly, they put pressure on the manufacturers and the Stirling was modified to have sixteen feet, either, eight feet either side taken off the wings. Not only that by doing that they had to alter the structure quite considerably and raise the undercarriage very high in order to cope with this. Disaster so far as performance’s concerned, the result was the Stirling was always very, very much – what shall I say - the underdog as far as the heavy bombers were concerned. Result was the highest we could ever get to bomb was about twelve thousand feet. The Lancs and the Halifaxes were up above at twenty two thousand and frequently if your time was slightly out we were bombed by their bombs from above us. Frequently happened, there was a lot of aircraft were lost that way. Just one of those things. So really, although at that stage, when you think that the Lanc didn’t come in to service till towards the end of ’42, so in the early days the Stirling was the only heavy bomber and he was restricted in its performance by this political intervention and consequently it had a reputation of being something of a, I won’t use, I want to use the words death traps, but Bomber Harris had his own ideas on this and he was fully aware of it. In fact as ‘43 went on we were doing the Ruhr bombing and then of course Hamburg and then the start of the Berlin offensive which was in the autumn of ’43, and at that stage our losses were running on average seven, eight percent, we had one occasion when our losses were seventeen [emphasis] percent. And it got to the stage where Bomber Harris, he couldn’t stand it any longer, he was at war with a lot of the politicians himself of course by his insistence that Germany had to be bombed in order to minimise their war effort, and consequently it’s on record in one of, I think it was Max Hastings’ book Bomber Command I think he mentioned it in there, the extract of a meeting that Harris had with Churchill in round about October, I think, or maybe November ’43, and he was thumping the table and he said to Churchill, he says, ‘if I send my boys out [thumping] to get lost any longer in these bloody death trips, death traps called Stirlings they’ll call me a murderer.’ He says, ‘what I want is Lancasters, Lancasters and more Lancasters.’ there was a hell of a row went on and Churchill didn’t say a word. But finally he leaned across and said you’ll have your Lancasters. And it was then that the production on Lancasters was even, set up considerably higher than what it was already.
H: So when [cough] -
BL: So really, just interrupting,
HB: No, no.
BL: so going back from our training at Stradishall as a crew were posted to 90 Squadron to a little place called Ridgewell which was in Cambridgeshire, and not terribly well known and we were the first people in. A couple of farms that had been demolished and replaced with an impromptu quickly built runway. There was no, shall we say buildings, which were you might say were suitable for an operational squadron. There was mud everywhere, conditions were foul. They put a series of nissen huts up for us to live in and also for headquarters and the conditions there were not terribly good at all. However, there we were in the spring of ’41, er ’43, expected to use that as a base to operate, operationally against the various targets which were set out. We were at Ridgewell I think for no longer than about three months, four months, something like that and we moved then to a place called, it was West Wickham when we moved there but it was renamed Wratting Common, and consequently conditions there were far better. Again, it wasn’t a wartime, it wasn’t a peacetime airfield, but it was a good airfield and conditions there were far better airfield than Ridgewell. I don’t quite know what happened to Ridgewell in the end, whether it survived or not. I shouldn’t think it did: it was foul. But nevertheless we went to Wratting Common and we continued to fly our ops from Wratting Common on 90 Squadron, until, as I say, the autumn when the squadron was destined to change from Stirlings into Lancs and consequently they were moved to just outside Mildenhall at Tuddenham.
HB: How many ops did you actually fly in Stirlings for your tour?
BL: On Stirlings alone I think we did about twenty one I think it was, on the Stirlings, before we went on Lancs. As I say during that particular time conditions using the Stirling were very difficult, to make an understatement. Our losses were constant and it was amazing really, I mean for instance there was a Canadian pilot called Geordie Young. He was the senior pilot on the squadron, he’d got a lot of experience, and they went off on their last trip, their thirtieth trip, and they got blown up over Dusseldorf on their very last trip and that was, had a very, what shall I say effect on morale on the squadron, because they were regarded you know, the top boys on the squadron. One of the problems, in those days throughout Bomber Command, not just 3 Group which was a Stirling Group, but all the other groups as well, is that when Don Bennett set up the 8 Group, Pathfinder Group, he got old Hamish Mahaddie who he took on as his recruitment boss to collect all the very best crews off the different squadrons he could get hold of, to go into Pathfinders, and of course there was a colossal amount of opposition to this from all the squadrons. No squadron commander wants to lose their best crews, and consequently there was a war going on particularly on 5 Group, with Cochrane was the AOC on 5 Group in those days, based at Swinderby and he was very, very strongly opposed to it. There was open warfare going on the whole time, and despite the fact that 5 Group at that time of course, was the elite group which contained all the 617 boys and various other specialist crews for specialist bombing trips and he obviously didn’t want to lose any of those. And consequently he managed to get some political background particularly from Arthur Harris two of the Pathfinder squadrons in 8 Group would be transferred back to 5 Group. So he eventually had his own Pathfinder boys. Of course then when Gibson set up 617, that was also again from selecting top quality experienced crews. In the early days that was, but before the Dambuster raid, but not so much later on when they were really struggling to get replacement crews from the various crews they’d lost. So really Bomber Harris, Arthur Harris, he was very much supporting the 5 Group people, it was his elite group in Bomber Command and he always gave it sort of first preference on everything. There’s one, a very amusing aspect came at a conference they were having at Swinderby when at the time Princess Margaret was having this affair with Fighter Command Townsend and there was all speculation in the press about whether she’d marry him or whether she’d marry somebody else, and so on, and at this particular meeting, this conference of crews at Swinderby, it was a bit of a hilarious topic and someone was saying, ‘well it’s unknown who she’s going to marry, but it won’t have any effect on us here in 5 Group.’ And somebody stood up and said, ‘well there’s one thing for certain, whoever she marries, it’s bound to be somebody from 5 Group!’ [Laughter]
HB: Yeah. Can I just take you back a little bit Bob.
BL: Yes of course.
HB: I just noticed in some of your notes, I know this is jumping right back, it says you [cough] were posted to Coastal Command, 86 Squadron and flew on Sunderlands.
BL: Yes. That was when I was on 86. We were, we did a detachment down to Gosport actually.
HB: Oh right.
BL: And then to St, St Athan, when the two battleships Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst were at Brest and they were trying to get up the channel to get away and consequently we went down there with 86 Squadron to carry out operations against the two battleships. But for some reason or other, some of the squadron was detached to, in Coastal Command, to a flying boat squadron, which was 10 Squadron based at Mountbatten, at Plymouth. I don’t quite know why this happened, it was only a very short time, but I was one of the people that went on the flying boats for about three months.
HB: So you were there as a co-pilot engineer?
BL: Yes, on the flying boats. And again, bearing in mind our engineering background was what they wanted more than anything because we had to get involved with the maintenance schedules and so on as well. So I only had three months, I didn’t like it at all. Flying boats was not for me, and that was the main reason I thought that there must be a better way that I enjoy so I volunteered while I was there for Bomber Command. That’s where I started into Bomber Command
HB: Right. It’s all right, I was just trying to get the sequence of events into some sort of order.
BL: That was really how the sequence went through. Of course in Bomber Command, very lucky with our crew to survive a tour on 90 Squadron.
HB: What were the operations, you know, you’re flying operations into the Ruhr in the Stirling, and you’ve very clearly explained the shortcomings of the Stirling. What was it, you know, what was, what were your experiences of those, those individual sort of operations?
BL: Well it varied actually. But the Ruhr targets at that time I can remember them vividly. Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Krefeldt, Essen. And Essen was the one everyone hated [emphasis] because at that time that was the home of Daimler Benz, Krups and all the munitions factories, and they had a ring right the way round Essen, three thousand anti aircraft guns and radar controlled searchlights and when you’re flying towards Essen and you looked ahead, you think, ‘Christ you’ve got to get through that to get to the target point,’ and usually at briefing when the curtain was finally pulled back - we were never told what the target was until the very last minute of course - and when the target was pulled back you see Essen area, ‘oh Christ, not Essen,’ you know. However, going from what I say, first five trips Essen, then we went on to Gelsenkirchen, Wuperthal, Mulein, Bochum, Cologne, Munchen Gladbach. Now in my history of 90 Squadron book, there’s various aspects of the work that we did, and there’s a typical battle order printed there as an example. And that was August the 26th I think it was, on Munchen Gladbach and we were on the battle order for that particular night. I think the squadron was putting up something like thirty two aircraft or something that night. There was eight hundred and fifty on the, the full main force. And at that time the procedure on ops on the squadrons was that you didn’t do, as a pilot or co-pilot or anything like that, you didn’t go out with your own crew until you’d done a familiar flight with an experienced crew as a supernumerary and it just so happens that on that battle order I had one under supervision and there was one other crew with another one under supervision. It was on the 31st of August ’43. And these two chaps, I had one of them under supervision, and another crew had the second one. Out of curiosity, in the back of the book there’s seven pages of casualties on the squadron, and when I looked for the names down, both these boys’ names were down on the casualties, one, bear in mind, was on the 22nd of September bear in mind that was just 22nd, twenty two days after we had taken them on the supervision. One of them went on the 22nd, the next night the second went on the 23rd. So they only survived twenty three days on the squadron. And that was typical, absolutely typical. We used to live in a long nissen hut, seven beds each side, two crews in there. Three times we had a new crew come in, and three times we’d wake up after an op the night before, about midday, be woken up by the military police going through the, collecting the bits and pieces, belongings of the other crew who had got the beds on opposite. Three times we had new crews come in and three times we lost them very quickly, in two cases within the first three ops, and consequently we had, as a crew, we had a reputation of being a Jonah crew and nobody would move in with us. [Laughter] But in all seriousness that was the way it happened, you know and we lost some very quickly and didn’t even get to know them. There we were, soldiering on and finally got to the stage as I say, when the Stirlings were taken out of service and deployed on other work, mainly glider towing and things like that. Then the Lancs took over as the Lancaster production of course, got higher and higher.
HB: What do you put down to, I don’t want to use the word success, your ability to have got through those twenty something operations?
BL: A lot of people would say you must have been one of the lucky ones. Yes, to a point. But we had a very good crew; highly [emphasis] dedicated crew to the individual job they had to do and it was, there were various aspects of the operation that needed high concentration and dedication to execute that. I mean our rear gunner, Eddie, he’s still alive now in New Zealand, and he had eyes like a bloody hawk; he could spot these fighters coming in and he would control the operation immediately if he saw a fighter, to the pilot at the front, saying, ‘corkscrew, corkscrew,’ and instead of flying at straight and level from a to b to a target on our particular crew, we would fly perhaps just for a minute or so, then start weaving like that, so that there was no chance of the fighters beaming on to us in, as if we’d been flying straight and level they had a much easier job of coming in to us, and under from mid or something like that, shoot us down. But by weaving like that, was one of the things which we did continually, it was uncomfortable but it was very safe. But apart from the anti aircraft of course, it certainly kept the fighters at bay from us and I mean I think three times we were attacked by fighters and three times we got away from them. Largely due to Eddie in the rear turret. Who shot one of them down actually.
HB: Did he?
BL: Yup, He opened up, he waited till he got it in his sights, and let fly and it blew up in front of him, or behind him should I say. So really that aspect of it is the thoroughness of the type of flying and the operation which was necessary, but on the other hand of course, where anti aircraft was concerned it’s a different story. We, in the Stirling we were in the middle of it, weaving through it and if you had a direct hit or a hit which say damaged the aircraft severely you could say right you were just bloody unlucky like Geordie Young on his thirtieth trip, and that sort of thing, so. The worst night of for Bomber Command for all losses was the Nuremburg flight, you may or may not have heard of this, but it was on the Nuremburg trip when the met people made a complete balls of the forecast. They were forecasting plenty of cloud so that you could fly comfortably in and out of cloud and the fighters couldn’t detect you quite so easily. But on this occasion the weather didn’t turn out as they predicted and consequently it was a full moon clear, crystal clear night and the result was that the main force – there was eight hundred and fifty aircraft on that particular target. This was in the autumn of ’44, I think it was, and that particular night we lost ninety four aircraft on that night, and when you think there were seven men in each aircraft. Work that one out. That was the worst night ever [emphasis] for Bomber Command.
HB: And your crew were on that.
BL: No. We weren’t on that.
HB: You weren’t on that one.
BL: It just so happened that we were on leave at the time so we weren’t on it. But that was, that’s the hard statistics of it.
HB: Because I was interested in the, in the thing you were saying about the Lancasters and the Halifaxes going at twenty two and you know, the Wellingtons, obviously the Wellingtons were at eighteen thousand and the poor old Stirling’s down at twelve.
BL: Yeah.
HB: I mean that must have, that must have influenced your pilot and your crew at that point, when you were on, when you were on the bigger raids.
BL: Well, yes, to a point, but you had to admit it was one of those things. I don’t think, it was only when we got to grips with the Stirling and training and so on and realised what effect the modifications had had on the performance of the aircraft. It was not easy to get off the ground with a full load on. For one thing the inertia of the engines meant that it was, always had this sort of pull to starboard, to the right, which you had to maintain correction on, and not only that but the fact that the undercarriage had been raised quite considerably, very high up. There’s a picture here will show: that was our aircraft and the one that saw us all the way through our tour, and it was so high up it that when this sort of inertia from the engines, it was very difficult to keep it straight down the runway. In fact there was numerous occasions when the aircraft just couldn’t control it with a full bomb load on and it crashed or something and numerous messy situations like that developed. But this is why as I say, I meant occasionally that when I went from Stirlings up into 5 Group, I was posted up to the elite group. How that happened was, that at that time the Lancs were coming on stream and 5 Group at Swinderby was the training base for the Lancs, but again they needed them on the squadron so rapidly that they were pushing the crews through probably too fast, not quite enough training. And the result was that a lot of the crews had been trained on the twin engined Wellingtons and stuff like that, which didn’t give them any [emphasis] experience on four engined stuff. So in the, when we finished a tour on Stirlings, it was decided then by the powers that be as it were – Harris and co – they’d put a few Stirlings up to be based at Swinderby to get, be engaged on the Lancaster training programme so that we could give them experience on another four engine aircraft which was more difficult to handle than what a Lancaster was, and consequently I was one of the eight crews that were, instructors that went up there and that’s how I got in to 5 Group, posted up there on the Stirlings. And I always remember when we got up there about 7 or 8 o’clock in the evening. So we parked the aircraft went over to the officers mess, went in the bar straight away for a drink of course, and we were standing there and there was another group of the instructors and so on and amongst them was Dave Shannon and Mickey Martin – ex 617 – and quite a number of others who’d survived and they were curious as to who we were. And finally old Dave Shannon, who was a big Australian as you probably know from 617, came across and said, ‘who are you blokes then and what are you doing here?’ ‘Oh we’ve brought some Stirlings up to give you some help in the training programmes here.’ ‘Stirlings!’ he says,’ bloody hell!’ He said, ‘have you done a tour on Stirlings?’ I said, ‘yes’. He rubbed his hand over here, says, ‘Well where are your VCs then boys?’ [Laughter] And that was their attitude towards us.
HB: Yes. That tells the tale.
BL: But there again, life’s about winners and losers isn’t it, you know. And what we had we had went out to do the best you can, and as I say, it’s sad really that our losses were consistently high.
HB: So when you’d done, you did, you know, when was you last operation that you did with the Stirling? Can you remember?
L: It was on, I think it was either Hannover or Stuttgart, it was not the Ruhr, north of the Ruhr, but that was my, our last op. We did two Berlins on the Stirling, surprisingly, and relatively quiet trips too, long trips but relatively quiet, for us anyway.
HB: What was your feeling on, you know, you’re going to do your thirtieth or your last tour on the Stirling? What was going through your mind then?
BL: I don’t really think there was any feeling about it. I mean on our crew there wasn’t any suggestion of any feeling of stress or concern or the fact that you might be, the crew expression was – you might get the chop. No, we were a very good competent crew. We operated very correctly and safely as far as we could and I think that had a, that was the predominant factor in the crew. I mean a lot of people today often say to me well what about all the stress and everything? I said well the simple answer was we couldn’t even spell the word. You know, I mean the stress wasn’t there, it was concern. Admittedly we had one occasion when our mid upper gunner, Mick, suddenly went down with something, tonsilitis or something and he couldn’t, he had to go sick and consequently they stopped him flying that night and we were doing an op that night, on, I’ve forgotten where it was now, somewhere in the Ruhr, so we had to have a mid upper gunner, spare mid upper gunner who apparently for some reason or other he’d lost the rest of his crew, he’d done no ops at all, but he was spare, so they said oh you’re joining Cawley’s crew tonight because the gunner’s gone sick so he came to us and was a dreadful situation. He was absolutely petrified of the thought of going on ops, and halfway towards, over the Dutch coast on the way to the target, he suddenly started firing off indiscriminately at what he thought were fighters but they were clouds. And of course it immediately was bloody dangerous because if fighters around they see tracer bullets going out they home in on us. And Charlie was absolutely crackers, he went mad. What the hell’s going on? Go back and have a look!’ And this bloke was sitting in his turret there, absolutely terrified and it happened again, at a very dangerous point, he suddenly started firing off. Anyway when we, we survived the op, we got back and we landed, the crew bus was there to take us back to the base for intelligence and debriefing and he never said a word, wouldn’t speak, he wouldn’t get on the bus, he walked back and of course when he was interviewed by the Station Commander he said, ‘what’s the problem?’ The medical people there saw the condition of him and the RAF had a very cruel aspect of dealing with situations like that. They immediately used to braid you, used to name you as Lack of Moral Fibre which was dreadful really. You were immediately stripped of your rank back to basic and sent off to a unit which was down at Brighton to deal with these people who were so called Lack of Moral Fibre and that went on your records throughout your, a very cruel way of looking at it really. But that happened to us on this particular flight and as I say amazing really, the bloke was just absolutely petrified. Couldn’t face up to what he was asked to do, despite the fact he’d gone through training and managed to survive to train to become a qualified gunner, but there we are. Just one of those things.
HB: What did you do when you got back from your last op?
BL: [Laughter] Well I normally drink a gin and tonic but I think I had something a bit stronger than that that night! No. we had a, all went down to the pub locally and had a nice evening and then we knew the next day we’d be posted out, we’d all be posted to different directions and it was a question then where everybody went. It just so happened that in my particular case I was posted, for a very short time, to a place called Wilfort Sludge which is on the A1, but from there of course this deal came up to send some Stirlings up to 5 Group, so I was then posted out of 3 Group into 5 Group. And previous to that I’d, before I finished my tour I’d been recommended for a commission so my commission had come through so I was, and that came through six months late, so I went straight in as a commissioned Flying Officer then and went to Swinderby then as an instructor and it was, the rest of the crew: Johnnie went up to, he was the captain, he went up to near High Ercall, which is up near, in Shropshire somewhere, near Whitchurch to start training Stirling crews up there to tow gliders in anticipation, of course, of the Arnhem offensives and so on, so he went up there on towing gliders. The two rear gunner, the two gears, er gunners, the mid upper gunner and the rear gunner, they were posted to somewhere on special duties. Where they thought they were going on rest they suddenly found they were on ops again, on the special duties, doing, dropping these Resistance guys in France and so on. Harry our wireless operator, the navigator by the way, suddenly when I went to Swinderby I found he was already there and I was sharing a room with him in the mess for a while. Unfortunately, he’s the son of a clergyman in Cornwall, highly religious, he used to spend all his time playing the organ in the local church where we were down the pub having a drink, but he had a heart attack right at the end of the war and died straight away. The bomb aimer, little Barry, little short bloke, he went on rest for a short time and then decided he’d go on a second tour, But got shot down on the third trip of his second tour, but he was lucky. He managed to bale out and he was a prisoner of war for about the last six months. But Harry, our wireless op, his previous job in life he was, worked in the Metropolitan Police, on the vice squad and he was absolutely obsessed on flying against the Germans on Bomber Command, absolutely [emphasis] obsessed. His one aim in life was successful bombing Germany and when we were tour expired and they say, sent out as instructors or rested and so on, and what they called screened as they said, screened from operations. He refused point blank he says, ‘No, I’m not going,’ he said, ‘I’m going to carry on.’ There’s a little bit of discussion with the commanding officer about it and the adjutant and so on, but anyway he got his way was posted on to a Special Duties squadron somewhere, and he carried on flying. He did seventy four ops in the end. And in the end he got shot down over Denmark I think, on one these special, highly secret operations on his seventy fourth. If you go back to Lincoln his name is on the, one of the what do they call it, the metal -
HB: The walls.
BL: The walls.
HB: wall 118.
BL: That’s what happened to all of us in the end. And as I say, the two gunners they survived, despite the fact they were amazed to find themselves on this resistance dropping and that sort of thing. So that was where we all finished up.
HB: So you ended up at Swinderby as the instructor on, you know, giving people experience on four engines.
BL: Yes. So, when I went to Swinderby I was instructing on Stirlings and Lancasters at the same time.
HB: Right. So how did you, how would you relate to the engineering side of the ground crew?
BL: Well, very closely indeed, in fact the whole crew did. I mean our ground crew was our survival in many respects and we respected them, we had a very good ground crew. They kept our aircraft serviceable against unprecedented odds at times. I mean there’s numerous occasions we’d come back with shrapnel holes down the fuselage and that sort of thing, and there was one occasion when there was, we had a near hit, this was Dusseldorf again funny enough, the intelligence people used to say well when the anti aircraft batteries are shooting at you, if you can’t hear on, if you can’t hear any noise you know you’re safe, but if you hear a bang you’ll know it’s very close. We heard this bloody great bang over Dusseldorf and that was very close and it finished up with Norm Minchin, the mid upper turret, with the perspex turret round his head, a piece of shrapnel came up and cut right through the back of the perspex and cut the back of his turret off, and he didn’t know it! Without touching him at all! It just cut through this Perspex and the back, and after we had left the target we were flying back home and he came on the intercom and said, ‘Christ it’s bloody cold up here, have you got some heating on?’ Didn’t even know it had happened! Of course when we got back to base not only that but there was a hole in the side of the aircraft you could damn near crawl through. So the maintenance people had a pretty big job, you know, to patch up all the holes on it. And that sort of thing, but the, yeah, the ground crew were very much part of the team, very important and we had a very good ground crew, very good.
HB: And when you got to Swinderby, you would, you would continue that relationship as you do in the training of the crews.
BL: Well not with the ground crew, not at Swinderby.
HB: Right.
BL: No, I mean we were, at Swinderby all we were concerned with was training the new crews coming through, and the ground crew was general ground crew, not to with, nothing to do with individual aircraft whereas on the squadron each aircraft had its own maintenance crew and its own flight crew and that was our particular aircraft which took us all the way through.
HB: Ah right, yeah.
BL: That finished up by the way, when we handed that over to another crew, actually I read historically in one of the books somewhere it was listed, I forget where the, I think it was the Bomber Command Diaries, every aircraft that was lost they gave indications where they were lost and where they were found and so on and our particular aircraft, the other crew that had it and it finished up in the Zuider Zee!
HB: Oh right.
BL: It was recovered eventually, by the Dutch people, who were, the Dutch people were doing the archive details and so on and there was actually some photographs of it being pulled out of the sea, they’re printed in the Daily Mail I think it was actually, so I couldn’t believe it when I saw this, when I saw the number on the side BF524, that was its serial number. WPNN and it was just being pulled out the water and you could just see the name, the number BF524 on the side of it. Couldn’t believe it. Recovered it and there’s a bloke, a very elderly gentleman, he’s a semi historian based at Alconbury and he’s very much a Stirling enthusiast and he’s got a workshop there full of all the bits and pieces of crashed Stirlings and so on and he works hand in glove with the, his counterparts in Holland and one of the major museums in Holland loan him parts of aircraft which he’s, he’s rebuilt a complete cockpit of a Stirling.
HB: Has he!
BL: At this. Yes, Andrew found this out and took me over there and we had a morning with him. I was intrigued and he’s got this bloody old shed there, old hangar I think it is, a small hangar, packed with all these bits and pieces of a Stirling and in the middle he’s got a cockpit he’s already built. And when we went over there he was sorting out an undercarriage and he was showing us that the Dutch archive people were loaning him stuff out of their museum which he photographed and copied and so on and sent it back to them. He said he had a very good rapport with them. Very interesting this guy. I can’t remember his name. Andrew knows it, but it was at Alconbury where he is based.
HB: Well I think, what we might do, Bob, is we might just have a break now because I’ve just gone to check the battery and we’ve now been talking for over an hour! So if we have a quick five minute break. I’m going to have to change the batteries anyway. So we’ll just stop the interview for the time being.
BL: Yeah. Okay, fine.
HB: Well we’ve had a comfort break and we’re just going to, we’ve had a battery change. So we’re just going to resume the interview -
BL: Oh these bloody things! I hate these!
HB: Just having a problem with a hearing aid battery at the moment. [Whistling]
BL: That’s better.
HB: So we should be go, on the run now. So we’re all settled now for our second part of our interview.
BL: Yes. What I was going to say was, when we were talking about the losses on the Stirlings, the turning point I think, was when it was decided, when Goebbels was boasting that the German fighters and defences were quite adequate against the RAF Bomber Command, he made statements saying that they’ll never touch Berlin or our second biggest city, Hamburg, they’re quite safe with our defences and so on, they’ll never touch them. And that was the challenge which Bomber Harris took up, and decided in conjunction with the naval people, who were very concerned because all these u-boats and subs were based at Hamburg and they were going out into the Atlantic to pick off the convoys and so on, and naval people said we’ve got to get rid of these u-boat pens at Hamburg. So Bomber Harris decided we’d obliterate Hamburg; it’s in July ’43. And at that time, as I was saying, particularly on the Stirlings, our losses were very high indeed and morale was very low and they introduced for the first time this metal foil thing called window. That was these patches of metal things which we discharged through the flare hatch at the back of the aircraft every twenty seconds I think it was, or every thirty seconds, something like that, and these packs, when they went out into the slipstream, developed into a big screen of metallic which completely killed the German radar defences and those, radar, the German defences were based, anti aircraft, were based on the radar picking up the aircraft or picking up the target with a blue, bright blue light, searchlight and once it picked you up, it then brought all the other normal searchlights into a cone and you were in the middle of it, and once you were coned like that, it was curtains it just picked you off then because they had you, and the whole secret of their success was this radar control and when we used this window for the first time it killed their radar. The result was, the first time it was used on Hamburg, it could have been used very early in 1943 but the politicians and defence people were so concerned they thought that if we use it early the Germans will follow this, copy it, and use it against us. So they were very reluctant, but it was only that when our losses got so high they had to introduce it. And our losses immediately on Hamburg dropped to one percent: fantastic! I we went to Hamburg, we did the four nights out of six: I did all four of ‘em. The fourth one was a disaster in that the first three were completely successful and I can remember it now, looking down, a whole wave of fire throughout, it just wiped this whole place out, just like that. The fourth night we went of course the met people again, they were predicting storms, but nothing like as severe as we found. The result was I think of, the storms were so bad, we were struck by lightning and St Elmo’s fire which is on the windscreen, and goes down the fuselage, all the compasses were knocked out and our radar and Gee box was knocked out. We hadn’t the faintest idea how we were, how to navigate back again and I think out of seven or eight hundred aircraft there’s only about twelve or fourteen actually reached the target. All the others had turned back because of the weather, and we were icing up very heavily and on the Stirlings the oil coolers were slung underneath the engines and you know what happens to diesel vehicles in cold weather, the fuel starts waxing and clogs up the carburettors, and the engines stop and that’s exactly what used to happen to us. These coolers which start icing in the middle, and what we call coring, and you had to keep hot air flow going through them in order to keep them serviceable. We suddenly found that we’d got two engines with, suffering from this icing and then there was chunks of ice coming off the wings, battering against the side of the fuselage like, dreadful we had to abandon short of the coast. We jettisoned our bombs into the sea and the only way we could navigate back to the UK was star navigation, and Cyril, our navigator, he was particularly good, he could take star shots with his, with his, my blinkin’ names, what my memory’s going.
HB: Sextant.
BL: Sextant, yes, with a sextant. And a combination of that and following the stars he managed to get us going back in the direction of the UK. When we finally hit the coast instead of being, coming over the coast over Essex or somewhere, we were in the north of Scotland, over the Hebrides and that’s where we came in and of course we immediately identified where we were and we were able to fly back down to, in fact we made an emergency landing ‘cause we were running a bit short of fuel, at Wattisham, in Suffolk. That was on the fourth trip, but the first three were so highly successful, we absolutely wiped the place out, and as I say the losses dropped right down to one percent because of using this window. The rise in morale then was just fantastic, you know after that. Of course sooner or later the Germans found that they could, they changed their system and they found that they could nullify this window by using different types of radar and so on, so it didn’t last, obviously, but we were able to use it for some months actually, and it was very good. We’re just having a new kitchen put in at the moment.
HB: Ah right. That explains the banging.
BL: And the other thing about the ops on the Stirling, in ’43 when our losses were so high, when you counted the number of ops you’re doing, the way it was calculated by Group headquarters, it was decided that because when they analysed the losses and how it was happening and so on, they came to a system of doing thirty ops in a tour and the total would depend entirely on the type of ops. For instance when 90 Squadron went to Tuddenham on Lancasters in the end of ’44, or half way through ’44, their main job - they did very, very little main force bombing – but ninety percent of the jobs of their work and I’ve got it all listed in my history book of 90 Squadron, was on either, was mainly on resistance work dropping resistance and equipment for low level intervention into Europe, dropping arms and equipment to the French and the Dutch resistance movements and so on, and consequently this was done individual very low level operations and the result was that the ops compared with ’43 were very easy and the losses were very low and consequently because, and the short ops as well, and because of this to count one trip as an op they had to do four trips to count as one on the tour, and consequently this system which was introduced before we finished, was that because of the severity of a lot of our ops on the Ruhr operation were so incredibly high losses and so very difficult that they allocated that some of the ops, because of their severity, would count, you had to do one op was counted as two on your tour, because of the severity of the operation and the high level of losses. So it wasn’t, it didn’t always follow that you did a straight forward thirty trips, you could have done say twenty five trips but they counted as thirty on your log book and the severity of the targets.
HB: Did you ever do mine-laying, gardening?
LB: Mining? Yes. Gardening as they called it. Yeah. We did two actually. One off Le Creusot and one other, I’ve forgotten what it was now. We did, our particular crew we only did two mining operations, those were, they were easy ones too.
HB: Yeah. So. You got to Swinderby. You’re doing the training there. How did you move forward from there? So that would be 1944.
BL: Well it was the end of, Christmas, yes Christmas time ’43 when I went to Swinderby, and most of ’44 and as I said earlier I was a fully qualified instructor on Lancs and Stirlings then and towards the end of ’44, I think it must have been round about September, October, something like that, some of the Lanc squadrons in 5 Group were having very heavy losses and the analysis of those losses, was in many cases put down to the fact that, to inexperience, training not sufficient for them, because they’d been rushed through very quickly because squadrons, with their losses, need quick replacements and so on. The result was that at East Kirkby 57 Squadron and 630 Squadron were both there at East Kirkby, and 57 particularly although they’d been engaged on very difficult targets their losses were astronomically high and a hell of a lot of them put down to pure inexperience. So myself and Dicky, we were both instructors at Swinderby, we were seconded to 57 Squadron for three months to set up a revised training unit there, which we did, to give the training, give the operational crews quite a bit more familiarisation and training and so on to try and cut these, some of these losses down. So I had that period there. And it was whilst I was at 57 and about to go back to Swinderby, ‘cause I was still on the strength at Swinderby despite the fact I’d been loaned to 57 at East Kirkby to do this training programme, 463 Squadron at Waddington, the Aussie squadron, had been suffering a few losses here and there, and the, one of the leaders of the squadron, the co-pilot and flight engineer leader there had been lost, so I was posted to 463 as his replacement and I was lucky to stay there until the end of the war.
HB: So that was back on to operations.
BL: So, yes, so I went back on to ops. Of course when I was at 463, because I was the boss of A flight, I was the leader, I didn’t have a crew, so I could only put myself on to do ops when there was a, somebody had gone sick or something you see, so I did them with any crew, and by extremely strange coincidence, I said to you about Essen earlier, my very first trip on my second tour here was a low level daylight on Essen. [Laugh] I couldn’t believe it! But I’ll tell you what, it was so bloody easy, it was so different to 1943. But, so I stayed there really, and at the end of the war as I said earlier, I went to Skellingthorpe, just outside Lincoln when Tiger Force was set up. I was posted on to Tiger Force.
HB: And Tiger Force was - ?
BL: That was the equivalent to 617 to go to Japan to do the [cough] vital targets into Japan, very similar to what 617 had been doing, because the adjacent to 617 Squadron was 9 Squadron. They were both based then at Woodhall Spa and Wing Commander Cheshire was the, was one of the commanding officers at 617 at that time, amongst others. But so when I went to 463 as I say, I was there till the end of the war then, and doing ops from there, and because I was the leader there the flight engineer leader on 463, I was posted to Skellingthorpe to join Tiger Force and I was promoted then at Tiger Force to be in charge of that particular section to go to Japan and we were half way through their training when the bomb was dropped of course and it all came to a halt then. Consequently I found myself in civil flying.
HB: Yeah. You did tell me before the interview started, you were, you were made an offer by the RAF before you -
BL: Yes, offered a, I was a substantive flight lieutenant then, and for a very short time I was an acting Squadron Leader but only for four weeks! [Laugh] Because it all ended then. But I was offered a extended seven year flying, extended flying committee, er, commission and given the choice. I didn’t know much about, well I didn’t know anything about civil flying. I didn’t even understand what BOAC meant until I got there.
HB: But you were originally offered Transport Command weren’t you.
BL: Yes.
HB: What was your view on that?
BL: But I turned that down. I turned that down flat. But there’s a very, there’s another, a very ironic twist that I’ll tell you about. So immediately because we were then seconded from the air force to BOAC we had to get civilian licences. We had to get civilian licences and then they decided what they were going to train us on, so we had to go through the basic theory and all that sort of stuff to get civilian licences and we were allocated I think it was about either fifty or a hundred block licence numbers in the very early days. Once we’d done type training on, at that time on Avros produced the very first post-war airliner called the Tudor and the first dozen Tudors were just being built and they were destined to go to BOAC to start up to date pressurised passenger aircraft. They were quite nice aircraft actually, very good. So since we’d just, we were the first people to be trained on the Tudors. So we did our training on the Tudors and when they were just about to start to take, BOAC to take delivery of the Tudors, for some reason there was a political change and instead of coming to BOAC, they went to British South [emphasis] American Airways, and at that time was run by the old 8 Group Pathfinder chief, Air Marshal Don Bennett, who was a real press on type. [Cough] Highly successful with Pathfinders of course and he was the boss at British South American. They’d previously been running some converted Lancasters into what they called Lancastrians before long distance flying in South America and so on, and they hadn’t got a particularly good record they’d lost three or four of them I think, for different reasons and so they took delivery of the Tudors. Tudor 1s these were, Mark 1s. And I did quite a bit of flying with the, on the Tudors on the South American routes, down to Bermuda, and the Caribbean and so on, and I was put in charge of training at BSA as well. And then, as things went on, we got as far as 1948 I think it was, ‘46’ 47’ ’48 I think it was, yes, ’47 ‘48. Suddenly the Berlin Airlift comes up, and from nowhere I suddenly found BSA, because of their Tudors, the air force was already in force on the Berlin Airlift using mainly Dakotas, the old C47s and they couldn’t cope with, couldn’t make it that economical to cope with the heavy loads that was necessary so they asked a lot of the civilian charter companies and so on, if they could provide crews and aircraft to come on to the Berlin airlift to increase the load factors, and British South American got one of the contracts to, with two Tudors, to go on the Berlin Airlift and I was one of them selected to go on the first one. So I found myself flying over to Wunstorf near Hannover where we were based, to fly on the Berlin Airlift these two Tudors between Wunstorf and Gatow, Berlin. And ironically, I think, when I think that three years before, when I did my last operational trip with 463, there we were still bombing and knocking hell out of ‘em; three years later, there I was at Wunstorf flying into Berlin to try and keep the so-and-so’s alive. Ironic really, they were three years the difference. Anyway, I stayed at Wunstorf for nearly a year, I think it was. I did nearly three hundred flights between Wunstorf and, there were only three of us on board.
HB: What sort of things were you taking in?
BL: Well when I first flew out there, we were taking huge packs of canned meat and stuff like spam and all that sort of stuff, corned beef, and all that, which was fairly easy to handle, in big cases and so on. And then the RAF were getting a bit uppity about what they were going to do and what they were carrying and bear in mind that the US air force was also on the operation with their C54s and Skymasters and so on, they were based at Schleswigland I think it is. I’ve got maps showing all the different air bases that we used over there but we always used Wunstorf and because we were larger aircraft, they decided that instead of carrying packs of food and so on, we suddenly found ourselves carrying coal, huge packs of coal, great big sealed bags of coal, about a hundredweight apiece. So we spent some months then, this coal at Berlin. Landing at Berlin was quite something. It was the ground force of people doing all the unloading and so on was predominantly very elderly German ladies, old grandmothers and mothers and so on, and it was sad to see them. They were dressed, whatever they could find to wear, and they used to come on board. They did all the work of loading and unloading, all the heavy work and they used to come on board to us carrying these lovely family heirlooms like Leica cameras and stuff like that to exchange. They were desperate for two things: cigarettes and coffee, and you could get anything for a couple of packs of coffee, in fact I got a lovely Leica camera in exchange for two bags of coffee at one stage. They used to come up, had it all laid out on the nav table there when they were unloading and they’d bring these heirlooms up and do deals with us. Anything we could, anything they wanted we could give it to them, you know. Children we gave cigret – we gave sweets and chocolate to the children. The children loved it. The Americans set up, at one stage, when they flew into Gatow, over the Frohnau beacon flying on to finals for landing, all the children used to sit round the lake underneath waving to the Americans going over and the Yanks were throwing out chocolate and sweets to them. At one stage they set up, got large handkerchiefs which they tied up sort of like a parachute, and tied these bags of sweets to them, were throwing them out and in dropping them out and the kids loved it. Absolutely fantastic.
HB: Amazing.
BL: But anyway, as I say, another aspect came up then, some time after been carrying the coal, which was a very dirty operation, dust and everything in the aircraft and they suddenly decided that what they wanted desperately in Berlin was medicinal, what do you call it? Two things they were short of, one was straight run gasoline and the other one was, oh dear me, some large amount of some sort of medicinal fluids. I’ve forgotten what they were now, what they were called. But these were in great big packs but the hospitals were desperate for them. So when it was decided that they’d fly the stuff in, it meant that the aircraft that were going to do this had to be modified with huge tanks in the back to carry it. And the air force said point blank they wouldn’t do it, they refused absolutely point blank to carry straight run gasoline in bloody great tanks down the back of the aircraft, they said its far too dangerous, so they refused point blank to do it. So the civilian contracts were asked to do it and we had then replaced our two Mark 1 Tudors with two Mark 5s which had been built and never been put into service but they were much larger and so our two Mark 5s were then equipped with these bloody great tanks for straight run gasoline and this medical stuff and so for the last few months we were flying that into Berlin.
BH: How did you feel about that?
BL: Oh dear me. Well it was just a bloody big laugh I thought, we thought. Bear in mind we’ve still got this enthusiasm from Bomber Command which we’d brought from the air force to the civilian and it was such a big change, you know, but to us it was more of a bloody big laugh than anything else. But anyway, we settled down to it and it was a good operation, it worked extremely well. When you are turning on to final approach into Gatow, Berlin, you came in over the lake on the outskirts of the city and the final beacon was at a place called Frohnau, Frohnau Beacon, you had to call over the beacon which was virtually the outer marker for final approach and the timing was so accurately it had to be done. The timing of aircraft over Frohnau was every twenty seconds between aircraft.
HB: Blimey.
BL: When you think there was a variety of aircraft, everything from small Bristol freighters to Dakotas and converted Lancs and Halifaxes and anything the charter people could lay their bloody hands on. They buy them for peanuts and take them out there to take part because the airlift they pay very big money and we were no exception with our Tudors and it’s an amazing operation really.
HB: So you went through the Berlin Airlift. Just one thing just I’m just quite curious about. You started off I think, on particular kinds of aircraft as a fitter.
BL: Yeah.
HB: What was, what was the system for re-training you when you went to different engines and different engine management systems?
BL: Well there were various training stations set up. I think the initial one for fitter 2Es, or 2As, that’s the difference between fitter rigger and fitter engines was at Kirkham, Lancashire and that was the number one training base, apart from Halton of course which is still there and still doing it today! And Halton of course was always the base of the so called Halton Brats as they call them. They go there as small, young apprentices and three year training straight away and they’re still doing that today. Yeah, they’re still churning out young lads from Halton.
HB: Right. So when you were working with the Stirling –
BL: Yeah.
HB: And then you go on Lancasters, obviously you’ve got Merlin engines, you’ve got Hercules engines, you’ve got all sorts, you’ve got air cooled, liquid cooled. You’ve got all these different engines.
BL: Yes.
HB: So was there an element of self training or was it all formalised?
BL: Well it was to us, to a point where we were fully trained and fully experienced with a lot of hours in on Stirlings when we went up to Swinderby, the 5 Group elite Group., but we hadn’t been trained on Lancs. So we had, it was virtually self-training on the Lancs there by virtue of working on them and flying on them and training every day. So that part of it, yes, was to a large extent I think we did, there were short courses laid on for us. I did one at Cosford for instance, and places like that, but generally speaking more than anything you were self taught, and as instructors you were expected to be experienced and knowledgeable on all the different aspects, so that was how it worked. But go back to the Berlin Airlift though, when that finished, I came back, by that time British South American, there was a lot of demands because they had a very poor safety record. We lost Star Tiger and we lost Star Ariel, both in the Caribbean. Those were Tudor 1s, from the first Tudors that we trained on. The first one was lost over the Bermuda Triangle as they call it, up at twenty thousand feet, no idea what happened to him; it just disappeared. And the second one was, had flown out of the Azores which at that time was a very difficult operation, flying over the south Atlantic from the Azores to South America and weather conditions and very poor nav and all rest of it was very prevalent round the Azores; very difficult route to operate.
HB: How many passengers did the Tudor 1 carry then?
BL: It varied, on whether, the Tudor 1s, I’ve just forgotten. I think up to about eighty or ninety passengers, something like that. The Tudor 5s were much larger but they didn’t actually go into passenger service after the Berlin Airlift. I don’t know what happened. They were scrapped I think, in the end. But anyway, as I say, because of the loss of the two Tudors and the BSA had lost quite a few Lancs so Don Bennett was criticised very heavily and finally he was forced to resign. So he was taken over by BSA who was then taken over by one of the old traditional north Atlantic BOAC captains, Gordon Storr his name, and it was Gordon Storr who I was with, on the, we were the first two Tudors at Wunstorf when the Airlift started and then shortly afterwards after Bennett had left, they decided BSA would be would up so what was left of it came back into, it came into BOAC. But that stage I was still being paid as a flight lieutenant substantive from the air force, seconded to BOAC so I was paid by BOAC who in turn seconded me to BSAA so I was paid by three companies, very interesting situation. But then of course, having come back to BOAC then, BOAC were operating Yorks and converted Halifaxes called Haltons, and, oh there was still a few Dakotas being used, but generally they were waiting for the next civil airliner which came from Handley Page called the Hermes and that was a very good aircraft. I liked the Hermes very much. Performance wise it hadn’t quite got good altitude performance as such, but it was a very easy aircraft to fly, very comfortable, it was designed specifically for the comfort of passengers and so on. And it was after then that the Comet 1 came in from De Havillands, the DH106, which was designed and built by DHs and was at least twenty years before its time. And then of course to us anyway, a huge attraction to get on the first jet aircraft into service. So in no time at all I was, I joined the Comet 1 fleet. We were flying, first of all flying down to Johannesburg and then it was extended to the Far East and out to even as far as Tokyo and Hong Kong and so on. Then of course you know the story that Xray Kilo blew up over Elba on its way between Rome and London. They were immediately grounded, no one could understand why it had, how it had happened. There was a huge inquiry and after ninety-odd modifications they decided that one of them must have been the reason so they put it back into service. And in no time at all they lost a second one which blew up over Naples Bay. That was flown by a South African crew who were on loan to BOAC. We’d also got French crews flying them, and it, so it was then decided that because two of them had blown up, they couldn’t leave them into service any longer. Unfortunately a third one went. The third one was out of Calcutta and that had just taken over from Calcutta and was flying through heavy cloud and they put that down to the fact that it flew into a cunim cloud and the stresses were so great the aircraft just broke up. So then they were grounded completely and when Farnborough rigged up the test rig there, and put a whole aircraft on this water test bed, and they found out exactly why it had happened. The general opinion from the public and in aviation generally was that the pressurisation caused the windows to blow out but that wasn’t true at all. The fault arose through bad engineering practice on the design of the hatches in the roof. The hatches which covered the radio communication, adf system and these two hatches were like that square like that. Engineering practice is that if you design something that’s a square and it’s put under pressure, you see that little crack there, where that join is -
HB: Showing me on the photograph frame.
BL: That little crack there.
HB: In the corner. [cough]
BL: If a crack occurs, it will always come from a corner, and find its way across and finally disintegrate and that’s precisely what happened to the Comet. It was bad engineering practice because if you round the corners those cracks wouldn’t occur. Simple [cough]. Again, in fairness to De Havillands, they produced some very fine fighter aircraft, put in their own engine, the Ghost 50 engine in them, Vampires and stuff like that but they had no experience ever of high altitude pressurised aircraft, and so they built them to what they considered would be strong enough and so on. But I’ve got a book upstairs which Andrew’s been reading, of the whole story, the whole official story of the enquiry and the way they found out all the reasons for it at Farnborough. The summing up at the end of it, when they said officially you know, that the initial fault was the adf hatches that disintegrated because of the bad engineering practice, how it was designed. The general feeling was that the aircraft was twenty years before its time but it simply wasn’t strong enough, because De Havillands, or anyone else for that matter, had experience enough to build them strong enough, when you think that at forty two thousand feet the pressurisation equivalent in the cabin was only eight thousand feet. That was the highest the cabin pressure was ever taken up to give passengers comfort without having to go on to oxygen. So the difference between eight thousand and forty two thousand across the structure of the aircraft was eight and a half pounds per square inch which is massive [emphasis] from the outside to the inside, and it has to be extremely strong, the sort of structure, in order to withstand these pressures. So you can imagine that it was not only not built strong enough, but of course the fault occurred on the hatches which caused it to blow up anyway. The first one that went, Xray Kilo, I had flown that on quite a number of occasions, got it in my log book in a number of places prior to it blowing up. I think previously I’d, we operated it from Tokyo to Hong Kong only the day before I think it was, before it blew up at Elba, but that aircraft had only done seventeen hundred hours. The second one that blew up over Naples had done just over two thousand hours and the one that disintegrated at Calcutta had done less than two thousand hours. They were all going at the, virtually the same time. That was another factor that the inquiry of course dug up, when they said that, Tom Butterworth I think it was, that because of lack of experience at DHs on high altitude stuff the aircraft simply wasn’t built strong enough. You’ve got to go back to Con Derry who was the chief test pilot at De Havillands a few years before when he was doing demonstrations at the Farnborough air show in a, I think it was a Vampire, he was doing very, very tight turns demonstrating and on one of those tight turns the bloody wings came off. He crashed into the crowd there and killed a few people, including himself. That was another example that under extreme stress conditions, that DHs aircraft wasn’t strong enough.
HB: Yes.
BL: So all those factors, you know. So result was that going back to the Comet days, I was involved very heavily with the whole Comet story because then it was decided that they’d have to, they’d build the new aircraft much stronger and up to date. The other thing was, by the way, that De Havillands had their own engines, the Ghost 50 which only produced five thousand pounds thrust, which was quite adequate for the fighters, but for a aircraft like the Comet 4 Ghost 50 engines, they insisted on putting their own engines in and all the experts said no, we needed Rolls Royce Merlin engines, or Avon engines they were, but they refused point blank, they said no, its our aircraft, we’ll put our own engines in and they simply weren’t strong enough. We couldn’t even do a safe level cruise at altitude, you had to do a five degree climb the whole time to get to top of descent, largely because by continuing to fly like that you’re reducing your fuel flow and consequently you had adequate fuel to start your descent. It was because of the consumption levels and the lack of real thrust on these DH engines, it was extremely [emphasis] critical on fuel, extremely [emphasis] critical. They devised this method of five degree climb. You had to fly, when you flight plan you fly backwards starting at top of descent instead of top of climb and things like that, you know. So anyway, when it was decided then they’d build the new Comet 4 much stronger and it would have Rolls Royce engines of much higher quality and it had Rolls Royce Conway engines. So, they’d, after the 1s, they built some Comet 2s, which were destined to go to the air force. But of course after the crashes they never even got airborne, never even delivered, they were just stuck there at Hatfield. So they decided that they’d have to carry out a two year test flying programme to make sure that everything that was being put into the Comet 4 had been well proved, correctly and properly using these two Mark 2s which were used as test beds. So they modified these two Mark 2s, strengthened them up and made sure they were adequate to do the work. They put the standard Conway engines on the inboards and then the new big 524 engines on the outboards which were destined to go into the new Comet 4. So they hadn’t got any crews to fly these at De Havilland, so they asked BOAC if BOAC could loan them I think it was six, was six crews to fly a two year test flying for De Havillands on these Comet 2s, 2Es as they called them. So I was one that went on to those, on to test flying. The first year we, every day we flew non-stop to Beirut from London and back, every day for a year. The aircraft hadn’t got a certificate of airworthiness, of course it was experimental, so there was only three of us allowed on board, no one, none of the boffins were allowed on so they got all the, all the usual test equipment and everything was loaded all the way down the fuselage and it was all fed up to the cockpit where we were and we used to have, they used to give us a list of things we had to check and write the results down, the results of this stuff as we flew, and we had to fly at thirty two thousand feet and record all this stuff for them which was really interesting. I loved it actually. It was a bloody good programme and extremely well paid as well! [Laugh]
HB: Right!
BL: So the first year we did London Beirut every day and the second year they decided we’d have to do the Arctic North Atlantic trials to make sure it was adequate for very low temperature conditions so then we started a programme going from London to Keflavik in Iceland and then across to Goose Bay and Gander in to the Maritimes and then back to London. So we did that for six months. That was a very interesting programme, I liked that part of it particularly. And then of course decided to try and get permission to fly into America. So the Americans were very keen on noise abatement and the Comet did make quite a bit of noise on take off of course, and so they said yes you can fly in to America but not land there, and not do take offs and landings. So then we had a period where we were flying out to different places around America using the new VOR navigation systems and so on, and then eventually politically we got permission to do landings over there and it was at that time then when a lot of the American airlines were looking very enviously at the jet Comet to replace traditional old fashioned piston engine aircraft and we did a series, we were doing a series of demonstration flights when, at the time when Pan American, the number one American outfit had just received, they’d just taken delivery of the first of the civilian Boeing 707s and they were pushing out a lot of typical American bullshit that they were going to be the very first pure jet passenger flight on the Atlantic, transatlantic ‘Fly American. Fly pure jet’, and all that, you know. Anyway, at the time we were down in Detroit doing some demonstration flights for United Airlines, they wanted to buy some of these Comets, so we were doing demonstration flights there. And it was there when we suddenly got a call to fly back to New York and, for some reason, and we found we got to New York we were going to do the first transatlantic flight the next day. We beat the Yanks by sixteen days! And when the Yanks had put all this, all the usual stuff in the papers, and they got the big banners out: ‘Fly Pan American the first jet flight across the Atlantic’ and so on. And after we beat them like that they had to change it all and where it said, ‘we are the first,’ they had to put in: ‘we are one of the first.’ They never bloody forgave us for it! Amazing story! [Laughter]
HB: Oh dear.
BL: But anyway, as I say I was very, very strongly involved in -
HB: How many people were on -
BL: - the whole Comet programme from start to finish.
HB: How many people were on that first trans-atlantic flight?
BL: I think we had about sixty, sixty passengers, something like that, yes. You’ve seen the menu of course.
HB: Yes, yes. Got a copy of the menu there [cough]
BL: We got back to London and it was a very historic occasion. They gave us immediate take off at New York and cleared all the flights from London to give us number one priority to land. BBC and everyone were all were there in force to welcome us, and it was headed by Eamon Andrews on BBC.
HB: Oh right. Yes.
BL: They got our wives there and so on waiting. There was two aircraft actually. We did the eastbound New York London and the other one went the other way, London New York and we crossed over at about twenty degrees west I think it was and acknowledged each other, but you know, two of them, one going one the other. And when we went through all the procedure at London old Eamon Andrews said, ‘We’ve got a coach here for you, we’re taking you up to,’ um to, I’ve forgot where the studios were now, I’ll think of it in a minute, ’taking you up to, see we want to put you on TV tonight.’ They’d decided to put us on that programme ‘What’s My Line?’ And old, the panel at that time dear old, oh my bloody memory’s going, bloke who was extremely well known on the BBC, was the chairman of the panel there. Anyway we went on TV and on this programme and all that sort of publicity and so on; it was really interesting. And then of course the following year I was picked to go to, one of the flight crew to go to Ottawa, Canada to pick up Duke of Edinburgh, Philip. We went in the Comet; he was very keen to fly in the Comet, so we went there to pick him up. He’d been there doing a series of talks and so on. The Queen was at Balmoral at the time so we were to pick him up at Ottawa and fly him back to Leuchars in Scotland, which is quite close to Balmoral, drop him off there. But anyway, we picked him up at Ottawa and we were just, hadn’t been airborne very long when a signal came through to say there’d, a big mining disaster had just occurred at Monckton in the Maritimes and would we divert to Monckton and so the Duke could just put in a quick royal visit, two hours royal visit to the disaster area. So we dropped him off at Monckton and then we flew down, further down to Gander and we waited at Gander for him to come, come back and then we brought him from Gander and flew him to Leuchars, dropped him off there. Oh it’s here somewhere I’ve got a picture of it. On board on the way back he was fascinated with the Comet 1, he loved to fly in the Comet, oh the Comet 4 I should say and on the way back he got a lot of individual special pictures of himself and he signed one each for us, and a handshake.
HB: Oh lovely.
BL: I thought she’d got it up here, it’s been on the wall here somewhere. She must have put it away. But it’s personally signed: Philip.
HB: Oh lovely.
BL: Which is, very has, carried a lot of weight, in the years to come. It’ll be worth a few bob I should think!
HB: So when did you actually stop flying Bob?
BL: Well, from then on, after the Comet programme, first BOAC decided to buy the Boeings so they ordered these new Boeing 707s from Boeing of course, from America and in January 1960 the first delivery of, or first Boeing 707 was ready for us to collect. And there was nobody trained on it or anything at that time of course, since we hadn’t got any Boeings. But in America the military version of the Boeing was the KC135 and they’d already built eight hundred of those, they’d all gone to the American air force and the American navy and so on. So having had that number built, all the bugs and problems had all been ironed out, needless to say, unlike so many of our aircraft you see. So it was a well [emphasis] tried and well proven aircraft before it even went into service. So in January ’60 I was, one of the, I was, been an instructor on Comets for some time I’d always been instructing quite a lot and so there’s four instructors, myself and three others were sent out to Seattle to get trained on the 707 and the first Boeing 707 to come off was number hundred and eleven off the line, the production line, so we were still quite a way behind other airlines. Anyway, when we got to Seattle we were trained by the Seattle test flight crew. At that time there’s no civilian aircraft, aerodromes rather, in the UK that could take the 707 except Heathrow and obviously you couldn’t use Heathrow for training but they could use it for service, not for training. Shannon hadn’t got a long enough runway at that time anyway, but they were building a new one. So there was nowhere in the UK where they could train us. So Boeings decided, got permission to use Tucson, Arizona. So Tex Johnson was there, er Tex, not Johnson, Tex Gannard, Tex Gannard was the Boeing Chief Test Pilot at that time and he decided that we’d, he’d take us down to Tucson and we’d set up a training base there and he would train us as instructors and so on, to stay on at Tucson to train the BOAC crews as they were sent out from the UK. So we stayed there to run the training unit [cough] and the crews had come from London, we trained them and they went back and then flew the aircraft in service. So we had a very nice six months so, Tucson and the trainer, super that was. But hard work. I’ll tell you what impressed me more than anything else when I went to Seattle, to Boeings: the difference between the British way of life in [coughing] workload, dedication and that sort of thing in the British aviation industry, was so different to that of the Americans. Soon found the Americans are far ahead of us in their dedication to the work they were doing. It was a bloody eye-opener, believe me. Hard work, but they knew how to do it and it was an absolute revelation to us. For instance when we were doing flight training unit details at London they’re usually about two and a half to three hours at the most, something like that, and then the time we went to Tucson the thing that surprised us was that the minimum flights times were five hours! [emphasis] Bloody long details, oh Christ, but that was typical of the Americans and the hard work they put in. They had three of the test pilots at Tucson with us and a fleet to train us and certify us as being fully trained instructors on Boeing aircraft. And I’ve got a certificate to say that.
HB: Yes. That’s grand.
BL: And anyway, BOAC then got a bit hot under the collar about the cost of running Tucson and all the British bases, so they got permission to use St Mawgan at St Athan, at Newquay. They got permission from the aircraft, from the air force for us to move from Tucson to Newquay and used St Mawgan for training from then on so I then moved, as I say, from Tucson to the Bristol Hotel in Newquay. And being a typical seaside resort, very popular, they didn’t want any weekend flying Saturdays and Sundays, there’s all sorts of objections from the local authority and so on, so it was a bit of a doddle down there.
HB: Good grief!
BL: So it was on the 707 where eventually that was my last flying for BOAC.
HB: I see. There’s a good few years in the air there Bob!
BL: Forty years.
HB: Can I just –
BL: The reason I retired in the end by the way, I was very close to retiring at that time, but I was on training at Shannon at the time on the Boeing fleet. We were doing our winter training at Shannon and one of the details we had to do was to demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft at high, high speed characteristics of the 707. The normal cruising in the 707 was point eight one mach, but the “never exceed” was about point eight eight, which you should never exceed on a Boeing and we used to have to demonstrate though as you got somewhere near the point eight eight the flight control characteristics changed aerodynamically and you had to be aware of this to happen should you ever stray up there in flight. So we had to demonstrate this and we used to fly at forty odd thousand feet from Shannon across to five degree west in the Atlantic then back again doing these high speed runs and I was doing one of those with two students and we suddenly hit a bloody air pocket – bang! It threw us up in the air and down again, hit it really hard, couldn’t, didn’t even realise it was there just clear air turbulence, and I got thrown up on the ceiling and when I dropped down I dropped right across the arm of the co-pilot’s seat with my hip like that and it buggered up something in my hip and I couldn’t even walk off the aircraft carrying my briefcase. So I had to go sick straight away. I went through all the usual palavers of different Harley Street specialists and lord knows what and all they could tell you, ‘oh you’ve slipped a disc in your back,’ you know and all this. They threatened to send me off for a laminectomy operation, but the BOAC doctor at Heathrow who looked after the flight crews, he was ex-RAF and he was bloody good doctor, Doc civil and liked gossip here with the boys, and he really looked after us, one of us, you know.
HB: Very much so yes.
BL: He says, when finally I got to the end of my tether, I couldn’t clear this up, the bloody pain was there, could virtually, almost couldn’t walk and he says, ‘I tell you what,’ he said, ‘I’ll pull a few strings for you,’ he said, ‘you’re an ex RAF officer’ he says, ‘I’ll get you in to Hedley Court.’ So a couple of days later he says, ‘I’ve managed it, you’re going off to Hedley Court they’ll sort you out there.’ So I went off to Hedley Court which of course is very famous today because all these guys from Afghanistan are going in there for amputainees and that sort of thing you know, so I went into Hedley for three months. Within three days of being there they found out exactly what was wrong with me. What I’d done when I fell down like that over this arm, I’d stretched what they call the sacroiliac joint in my hip, it’d stretched it and bent it and that was the cause of all of the trouble.
HB: Good grief!
BL: And they found that after three days there! All these bloody Harley Street specialists I went to see kept telling me all I’d got was a bloody slipped disc. But the outcome was that I spent three months there and they cured it ninety nine percent. And when I finally got to, they wanted to discharge me I went to see the old Group Captain medical and he says, ‘Well,’ he says, ‘we’ve cleared it up for you,’ he says, ‘you’ll be all right,’ he says, ‘there might be the odd occasions when you get a recurrence but the only thing is,’ he says, ‘I’ll have to put a four hour restriction on your licence,’ and of course BOAC wouldn’t accept that because I was on a world wide contract so they said no we can’t accept that but you’re very close to retirement we’ll give you an immediate retirement on pension. So that’s really how I finished. But it didn’t end there.
HB: Oh right.
BL: Another little facet came. I’d been very interested in act, different aircraft accidents and accident investigation. I was on the accident committee for a few years before that, while I was still flying and somebody at BOAC obviously realised that I’d got experience on them and they said well we’ll keep you on but not in a flying capacity, would you like to become a CAA FIA flight accident investigator. I said yes, so they said right. So they sent me off to the University of Southern California, in Los Angeles, to do the full official FIA accident inspector’s course so I had a couple of months over there, and did the course in the university and I qualified, graduated and got my little badge and everything, as an official accident investigator. So I came back to London and I went on two of the accidents actually, one of which was a Boeing which landed with a wing on fire at Heathrow after one of the engines had dropped off into the Staines reservoir. I’ve got a photograph of that landing, with the wing on fire, amongst this lot here somewhere.
HB: Good grief. Yeah.
BL: And anyway after that I found it was a bit boring and of course by that time I’d got a farm in Surrey and I’d got, we were milking a hundred and twenty five Jersey cows, and I’d got thirty thousand chickens, got five vans on the road delivering fresh eggs and cream around London and it was taking up so much time I thought well I haven’t got bloody time to go in so I finally decided I’d quit completely and carry on farming and that really was the end of it.
HB: Yeah, it does bring it to an end, doesn’t it really.
BL: So, quite a lot of various incidents in my career.
HB: Just a few, just a few. Just going back, I meant to actually ask you this ages ago. When you were on 463 Squadron -
BL: Yes.
HB: With the old, the Australians, that would be towards the end of ’45. Did you ever, when you were there on operations did you ever come across the German jet fighters?
BL: Er, no. Not, not the jets, no.
HB: No. All right.
BL: Incidentally, talking about that, of course, when Peenemunde came up, it just so happened, we didn’t, on the Stirlings by the way, the Stirlings from the squadron, I think we put about a dozen Stirlings up on the Peenemunde operation and we’d been briefed from weeks and weeks and weeks that something very special was coming up, no one knew what it was except it was something very special operation but it was tied in very closely to the right weather. It had to be absolutely perfect on weather forecast and of course it turned out it was Peenemunde. And it just so happened that when the Peenemunde trip came up we were on two weeks’ leave. So we missed it.
HB: Yeah. Right.
BL: But it was from then on of course we were very active on bombing these flying bomb sites in France and various parts of Europe. But we never came across any of the jet fighters at all. No definitely not.
HB: Right. Well I think. I think Bob, we’ve come to a natural sort of end, and I just thank you very much. Absolutely fascinating.
BL: Well I hope I haven’t bored you too much.
HB: Oh no! Well I haven’t gone to sleep! [Laughter] No absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
BL: I’ve been lucky really in a sense, that you know, had all these different variants, military and civilian, I’ve very lucky to be on you know, these special products, projects. Rather like the as I said, the two years I was test flying with De Havilland, that was really interesting.
HB: Yeah. I’m going to, one of the things I forgot to do at the beginning, I didn’t actually say at the beginning: it’s Wednesday the 12th of December 2018. I forgot about that at the beginning, I got a bit excited! So I’m going to terminate the interview Bob and get on with the paperwork. Thank you very much again.
BL: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Leedham
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALeedhamHJL181212, PLeedhamHJL1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:16:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Leedham was a flight engineer who carried out twenty-one operations on Stirlings. At the outbreak of war Bob was an apprentice motor mechanic, and along with other apprentices, was left to operate the garage when all the engineers were called up. In 1940 he enlisted in the RAF and following initial training, Bob was selected for pilot training but did not achieve the requirement of flying solo within twelve hours. His engineering background meant he was posted to RAF St Athan and trained as a flight engineer. A posting to RAF Stradishall followed, and conversion to Stirling aircraft. Now part of a crew and posted to 90 Squadron at RAF Ridgewell, operational flying commenced. Bob suggests political interference restricted the performance of the aircraft resulting in a higher casualty rate amongst Stirling crews, and explains how the introduction of Window anti-radar equipment improved this. In Spring 1943 the squadron moved to RAF Wratting Common and in Autumn, converted to Lancasters. With more Lancasters coming into service, there was a lack of experience on four-engined aircraft, and some Stirling’s were deployed to RAF Swinderby for crew training. This move coincided with Bob obtaining his commission and he became an instructor on both Stirling and Lancasters. Late in 1944, Bob was back flying operations with 463 Squadron at RAF Waddington, where he was senior co-pilot/flight engineer. Following peace declaration in Europe, Bob joined Tiger Force in preparation for moving to Japan, but the war ended before this materialised. Bob began a post-war career in civil aviation, initially operating the Avro Tudor, and flying approximately three-hundred operations during the Berlin airlift. He also gives an account of the development of the DH 106 Comet and details the faults which resulted in the aircraft being grounded. While undertaking demonstrations in America, Bob was recalled to New York, where his crew discovered they were to operate the first civilian jet flight eastbound across the Atlantic. In 1960, Bob was one of four certified to instruct on the new generation of aircraft, the Boeing 707. An injury sustained from clear-air turbulence curtailed Bob’s flying career, and he progressed into the investigation of aircraft accidents.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Anne-Marie Watson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Azores
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
United States
Zimbabwe
Arizona--Tucson
England--Burton upon Trent
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Essex
England--Hampshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Peenemünde
India--Kolkata
Italy--Elba
Mediterranean Sea--Bay of Naples
New Brunswick--Moncton
Ontario--Ottawa
Scotland--Leuchars
Wales--Glamorgan
Washington (State)--Seattle
England--Cornwall (County)
Arizona
Ontario
New Brunswick
India
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Staffordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
10 Squadron
463 Squadron
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
86 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
C-47
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Pathfinders
pilot
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
radar
RAF Alconbury
RAF Halton
RAF Ridgewell
RAF St Athan
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Stradishall
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Wratting Common
Scharnhorst
Stirling
Sunderland
Tiger force
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/918/11163/PLashbrookW1501.2.jpg
efbe291d350ae4303c5b1e5ad8128366
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/918/11163/ALashbrookWI150903.1.mp3
83b10ab78c695a348df8b6a334f3d6bc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lashbrook, Wally
Wallace Lashbrook
W Lashbrook
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Wally Lashbrook MBE DFC AFC DFM (1916 - 2017 Royal Air Force), his decorations and a poem dedicated to bomber pilot. He flew operations as a pilot with 51, 102 and 204 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jessica Kelly and Wally Lashbrook and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lashbrook, W
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Ok Wally. My name is Squadron Leader Bruce Blanche.
WL: [Unclear] in the hangar and unfortunately, when I went off to Singapore, he was carrying on with his motorbike, he killed himself straight after, in Southampton, when I was halfway to Singapore.
BB: Right.
WL: It was a dead loss to [unclear] He was a quaint little fellow.
BB: Yes. Yes.
WL: Yeah.
BB: He must have been a very interesting man to, to have known. Because he became very famous as you know, in Arabia and he joined the Air Force afterwards under a false name, as Aircraftsman Shaw.
WL: That’s right.
BB: Yeah. And he wrote a book called, “The Mint.”
WL: Yeah.
BB: But, so, you joined as a Halton apprentice in 1929.
WL: I joined in 1929.
BB: Yes.
WL: That’s right.
BB: And then you — you —
WL: Went to Singapore.
BB: Went to Singapore and then you at some stage you decided to be a pilot.
WL: Three years. Three years in Singapore and they selected certain lads — sent them home as pilots. Sent to be taught to fly. They all had that ambition. Some of us were fortunate enough to get selected. I was one of probably a thousand to get, and then four of us got sent back to Prestwick to learn to fly. That was 1929.
BB: 1929.
WL: We learned to fly. Yeah.
BB: So you learned to fly at Prestwick.
WL: Sorry in 1936.
BB: Yeah.
WL: I learned to fly in Prestwick, yeah.
BB: And what did you learn train on at Prestwick?
WL: Tiger Moths.
BB: Tiger Moths. So, it was an EFTS. Elementary Flying Training School. Yes. Ok. And —
WL: I was there and then of course [unclear] let’s think. What squadron was I? I can’t remember the squadrons.
BB: Yeah. That’s fine. But I gather you went with 51 Squadron for a while.
WL: Yes. I was.
BB: Yes.
WL: For a short time, but I don’t think I did a great job there. I broke the one and only Hendon.
BB: Yes.
WL: Landed badly on the undercarriage.
BB: Yeah. Hendons were a bit cumbersome as I remember. Not remember, as I know from my own research. So, you, you re-mustered as a pilot.
WL: That’s right. Re-mustered.
BB: And you completed your pilot training. And how long did it take you to go solo on the Tiger Moths?
WL: As I think it was a rather longer than most people.
BB: It would be in your logbook but — yeah.
WL: Probably [pause] I’d have to look at my logbooks.
BB: Ok. Most people went, went solo after about eight hours or so.
WL: Oh, well, I was much longer than that.
BB: Were you? Well. It’s ok, Wally. Don’t worry about it. We’ll get, we’ll get it later. But then you went on to, to ops. Did you fly — you got your DFM. Distinguished Flying Medal.
WL: Yes.
BB: So, you must have been obviously an NCO at that stage. Flight sergeant.
WL: I was an NCO. That’s right.
BB: Yeah.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And what were you flying when you got your DFM? Was it Whitleys?
WL: Hendons.
BB: Oh right.
WL: My DFM.
BB: Yeah. When you got your DFM was it, was it Halifaxes? I’ll have a look at the logbook don’t worry. It’s ok.
WL: Yes.
BB: And then you obviously got commissioned.
WL: I got commissioned. Yeah. Let’s see — I can’t —
BB: No, I’ve got the dates, Wally. It doesn’t matter. So, the transition from a, being Halton apprentice.
WL: That’s it.
BB: With all the technical knowledge and working on engines.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And meeting people like Aircraftsman Shaw — Lawrence of Arabia.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Re-mustering for aircrew. Going through all the aircrew selection. You were selected for pilot, so you must have been at the top. The top of the cream.
WL: Yeah. I managed to survive. I crashed in a Tiger Moth.
BB: Yeah.
WL: And I got stuck in fog.
BB: Right. And then —
WL: I false landed anyway.
BB: Yes.
WL: And a fellow, a flight sergeant, flew it out of the rocky place I’d finished up in.
BB: Carry on. Carry on. Just keep talking.
WL: Yeah. Well from there I went on to Hendons.
BB: Yes.
WL: Tiger Moths and then Hendons.
BB: Ok. And then, so you got, you got your aircrew cap. You went through pilot training.
WL: Yeah.
BB: You went on to a squadron and obviously got the DFM at the end of that tour. Was that with 51 Squadron?
WL: That’s right.
BB: Yeah. Was that Halifaxes you were flying?
WL: Oh, I’d have to look that up.
BB: Ok. Right. I think we can find that out. And you did a full tour of missions with 51 and then you’re obviously screened at some stage. Did you go on to instruct at an Heavy Conversion Unit? 1652 at Pocklington?
WL: I was, yeah, I was with 30152a.
BB: Yes, right. Ok.
WL: I got, I must have got my commission before. Before that.
BB: Yes. You did.
WL: Yeah.
BB: You did. Yes. And then you went back to a squadron again. Was it 102 Squadron?
WL: 102 Squadron. That’s right.
BB: And then you did, oh no, I beg pardon you did some time with the Pathfinder force too. With 35 Squadron. I believe.
WL: Well, no. It wasn’t Pathfinders. No.
BB: No.
WL: No, I was, well, look in my logbook.
BB: Ok. We’ll have a look in the logbook later.
WL: Yeah.
BB: So, and then afterwards, after the war you ended up with a DFC. Sorry DFM, DFC, Air Force Cross.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And then you went on and you stayed in the Air Force I think, until — was it 1953/54 something like that?
WL: Yeah well, I was. I’m stubborn and the old memory doesn’t —
BB: Don’t worry about it. It’s — your medals tell the story.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And you went on to 102 Squadron.
WL: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: And you finished the war with your DFC, AFC.
WL: Yeah.
BB: You obviously stayed with the RAF for quite a while. You came out of the RAF and obviously got involved with the Air Cadets.
WL: That’s right.
BB: The RAF VR [T]
WL: Yeah.
BB: Training branch.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And that’s — how did you find that? Very rewarding I suspect. Teaching young — young girls and boys to an interest in aviation and in flying.
WL: Well I was general duties more than flying.
BB: Yes.
WL: I enjoyed working with youngsters.
BB: Yeah. They are very rewarding. Working with young people.
WL: I was a keen. I was an athlete.
BB: Were you?
WL: Well I wasn’t —
BB: No, but what was your particular sport?
WL: Pole vault for one thing.
BB: Oh, excellent.
WL: Four hundred metres.
BB: Oh, that’s excellent. So, you were quite an athlete. Well of course that —
WL: I wouldn’t say I was quite an athlete
BB: No. But you were interested in sport?
WL: Hmmn?
BB: You were interested in sport.
WL: Very interested in sport.
BB: That’s what the RAF liked in those days.
WL: Yeah.
BB: I were.
WL: That’s how I got the DFC I thought.
BB: Yes. Ok. ‘Cause I remember when I was in the Air Force, Wednesday afternoons in the Air Force was sports. You had to go and play football or cricket or rugby, or something like that.
WL: Yeah.
BB: It was always Wednesday afternoon as I recall.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Every Wednesday. Station, station routine orders. Wednesday afternoon sport.
WL: Yes.
BB: And you couldn’t get out of it. No. You had to do it, otherwise your commanding officer was after —
WL: I used to organise the sport.
BB: [unclear]
WL: Inter squadron. That was —
BB: That’s right. Inter-squadron sports.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. Very, very important. It keeps, it keeps the body fit and the mind agile.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And that’s very important for the RAF.
WL: It’s very good for the morale.
BB: Good for morale, good for building team spirit. Which, in aircrew is very important. And teaches you discipline and all of that. So that’s good.
WL: That’s right, yeah.
BB: Yeah. And, now, after the, after your time in the RAF when you came out in the 50s, yeah, I gather you joined BOAC.
WL: The which?
BB: British Oversea Airways Corporation. Did you? You flew as a civil pilot for a while, did you? With BOAC
WL: Oh, I was, yeah, I was flying Halifaxes.
BB: Yes.
WL: And civilians.
BB: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. Called the Halton, I think it was called.
WL: Yeah. I went all over the world.
BB: How interesting. How interesting.
WL: Yeah.
BB: I remember as a child my, my father worked, my parents worked overseas and we used to go out to see them and it was always in a BOAC Super Constellation.
WL: Oh yeah.
BB: Or something like that.
WL: Yeah.
BB: It took something like twenty eight hours to get to Singapore, Wally. Could you imagine that?
WL: No.
BB: London Heathrow to Singapore. Twenty eight hours.
WL: Yeah. Got used to it.
BB: Night stop at Karachi. Changed crews at Karachi.
WL: Singapore was. Yeah it was. I went as far as Hong Kong you know.
BB: Right.
WL: And flew to America. America.
BB: Right. Right.
WL: Canada.
BB: Canada. Interesting.
WL: It was.
BB: And then you obviously left BOAC.
WL: Nearly all the bits of Africa.
BB: Lots of Africa. Yes. It must have been very interesting that flying after the war. Pioneering the air routes and flying the routes for BOAC, must have been very, very interesting.
WL: It was very interesting.
BB: And challenging too. Quite dangerous.
WL: Unfortunately it was quite dangerous as you say. We lost a few.
BB: I mean the weather. I mean the unpredictable weather. And meteorology wasn’t an exact science then as it is now, and you know, navigation aids were sparce, so it was all dead reckoning stuff.
WL: [unclear]
BB: No. Hardly any beacons. You know.
[motor running outside]
WL: What’s that noise?
BB: We’ll just wait while the —
WL: Eh?
BB: We’ll must wait while the chap cuts the grass outside.
WL: Oh, that’s what it is.
BB: Yeah. It’s alright. It’s not an engine running up. Somebody’s not taxiing out. It’s ok.
WL: Yeah.
BB: No. But you know what a splendid privilege it is to see you, Wally, and to be here. I’ve done a lot of research on you because there’s a lot out there on you. You’re really quite famous. And it’s a real honour to be here and you’ve served your country, and the Royal Air Force extremely well, and we’re all very proud of that.
WL: Well it was a job to me.
BB: Yes. It was a job to lots of people.
WL: Yes.
BB: But nonetheless, they don’t give you these things on the table for jobs. They don’t give you all of this stuff for just doing a job.
WL: No.
BB: You did some tremendous things. I mean, for example, you were shot down, you evaded, you escaped back to the UK when your Halifax was shot down on the Pilsen raid.
WL: Yeah. Oh well it was a pilot’s existence.
BB: Yes. It was. And you must have qualified for the Caterpillar Club because you had to use your parachute didn’t you? Oh no you crashed. Did you crash land or did you bale out? I can’t remember.
WL: Hmmn?
BB: Did you crash land that particular Halifax or did you bale out? Did you parachute?
WL: I’m trying to think.
BB: I’ve got a, I’ve got a feeling that you crash landed it and the guys got out.
WL: I crash landed.
BB: Yes. That’s right.
WL: Yeah. I think —
BB: After the Pilsen raid. When you got back to base, got back to Linton on Ouse. That’s right. Yes.
WL: Yeah. I was very fortunate in my landings.
BB: What?
WL: Very fortunate in landing.
BB: Yes, well there’s only good landings, Wally, are the ones you can walk away from.
WL: I’ll say. I was fortunate I never landed on the water.
BB: Yes. I, I was talking, I was talking to a Bomber Command veteran, not so long ago who had to ditch in the North Sea with his crew. And they were there, they were there for three days in this dinghy before the Air Sea Rescue people.
WL: Found them.
BB: Got to them.
WL: Yeah. Well I was fortunate.
BB: You were fortunate indeed. Yes.
WL: Yeah. I didn’t. I landed on the land if you like.
BB: Yes.
WL: I can’t remember which one we [unclear], but that was the —
BB: So, what, what I will do now, Wally, with this noise going on. I will have a look at your logbooks.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Oh, h’s finished now. So, we can carry on as normal for a little bit. So, when were you born, Wally? I mean.
WL: 1913.
BB: 1913.
WL: Yeah. January the 3rd.
BB: February 3rd .
WL: January the 3rd .
BB: January the 3rd .
WL: 1913.
BB: And where was that, Wally? Can you remember where you were born?
WL: Well it was my address [unclear] Devon.
BB: Ok. So, 1913. That’s just, just before the First World War.
WL: That’s right.
BB: So obviously your father might have gone off to the First World War, did he? Or —
WL: No. he was a protected.
BB: Oh, he was a —
WL: Farmer. Yeah.
BB: Oh, reserved occupation, I think they called it.
WL: I marched as a boy, five years old in 1918. You know, a wee boy.
BB: Yes. A wee boy. And of course, that’s, that’s during the First World War.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Air power came to its, its true meaning. You started off with balloons and then it started off with reconnaissance.
WL: That’s right.
BB: And then the fighters and then the bombers. So, and of course the RAF, the Royal Flying Corps — the RAF were formed so —
WL: The fascinating.
BB: So, all of that post war you grew up in, an age where aviation was, was coming of age.
WL: Yes.
BB: And there was all that, you know, guys like Cobham and flying circuses and all these wartime aces going around doing aerobatics at air shows at like Hendon and all these places. And so, you grew up in that air minded generation.
WL: It was balloons.
BB: Did that influence your interest in aviation? Did that spark your interest in aviation?
WL: I always, you know, was amazed with aviation. Watching the airships.
BB: Yes, those were amazing things. I, I — they were truly amazing things. You know, when you think of the zeppelin. Think about the zeppelin. How big they were.
WL: Yes.
BB: And then you know, of course, the Americans used them a lot more that we did, for surveillance over the ocean, but we did the same and, you know, we had these airship bases all over the place.
WL: All over France and that.
BB: Yeah.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And they were — but they were, I mean they were, you know, you were sitting on a balloon full of helium or gas.
WL: That’s right.
BB: They just went up like a light. But from what I’ve read, it took an awful lot of fighters to put one down. Yeah.
WL: Yes. I remember seeing the flying, the airships.
BB: Yes.
WL: Crossing Bude.
BB: Oh yes.
WL: Crossing Bude. Going out to sea.
BB: Yes.
WL: And coming back in again.
BB: On, on, on the Clyde.
WL: Yeah. And I remember the balloon, the airship going down on the way to France.
BB: Yes.
WL: And also one who caught up in America. US.
BB: Oh right. OK. No. It was and of course, they’re making a comeback as well now. The technology has been resurrected and twenty first —
WL: Is that right?
BB: Twenty first century being applied on the new technology so that down at a place called, what used to be RAF Cardington.
WL: Where?
BB: Cardington.
WL: Paddington?
BB: Cardington. The big balloon hangars used to be there and, near Bedford and there’s a company there trying to get airships flying again.
WL: For [unclear]
BB: No. No. For aerial surveillance, and agriculture, and all sorts of things.
WL: Yeah.
BB: It’s really — it’s gone, it’s gone in a big circle, Wally.
WL: Well I would never have thought they could find anything useful for them.
BB: Well, they’re small, I mean, they’re probably the size of the hall here.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But they are used for coastal surveillance, communication platforms.
WL: Yeah.
BB: They’re doing all sorts of things with them now. So, you know, it just goes in a big circle but of course, the technology now is a lot better than it was in the 1913/14.
WL: Yeah
BB: So that’s fascinating, but when you consider the changes in aviation in your lifetime, it’s incredible.
WL: Yeah. I know it’s —
BB: Supersonic flight, men on the moon, space travel.
WL: Oh I know it’s —
BB: You know. It’s amazing.
WL: Really is —
BB: When you were a boy, you probably couldn’t even visualise that.
WL: No. I mean I was really airships crossing over Bude. The seaside you know. Going out to sea.
BB: Yeah.
WL: And back in again. And then of course, the ones that crashed. The one that crashed on the way to Paris.
BB: Yes, that’s right. But coming back to the Royal Air Force, obviously you’re were a career, you’re a career officer. Once — when the war ended, and all the wartime people left wha,t what decided you to stay in the Air Force after the war? Was it because you just liked the flying?
WL: Well, it was a job.
BB: It was a job. Well it was a job. And you are quite right.
WL: Yeah.
BB: I mean, at the end of the war and the wartime Air Force was cut. Was drastically cut, and people had to go and get jobs. So, you were lucky to —
WL: A paid pilot was —
BB: Yeah sure, but I mean, you must have been very, very good at what you did as a pilot, which is testimonial in your medals here for the Air Force to say, ‘Ok Lashbrook, you can stay on, you know. You’re a good boy. You can stay in the Royal Air Force, in the peacetime Air Force. Was it very difficult? Did you have to go to interviews and be selected?
WL: I was peacetime farmer if you like. I was paid civilian.
BB: Right. Oh, a ferry pilot. Yes.
WL: A ferry pilot.
BB: Was that for Handley Page?
WL: Hmmn?
BB: Was that for Handley Page? The aircraft manufacturers.
WL: No. No. I forget.
BB: Oh.
WL: Skyways.
BB: Skyways Airwork.
WL: Yeah. I was —
BB: Oh right. Ok.
WL: I worked at Skyways.
BB: I remember as a teenager, Skyways DC3s taking the holidaymakers over to France in the early days.
WL: Yeah.
BB: In the 50s. A lot of — Skyways had a lot of ex-RAF DC3s. Dakotas.
WL: Yeah
BB: And they used to fly them out of Lydd, Lydd in Kent, and they just took these people across to France and you know.
WL: That’s right. I [unclear]
BB: And then they got the DC, DC4 I think, and they went a further afield.
WL: That’s right —
BB: It was a interesting company — Skyways. It was an interesting company.
WL: Yeah.
BB: I mean it was part freight, it was part airline, it was part, we’ll fly anywhere, anything, anytime you want.
WL: Anywhere. Yeah. Where we want to go. Unfortunately, we lost a few.
BB: Yes. Well as I said, most of the airliners after the war, initially, were either converted Halifaxes or Lancasters, or they were DC3s, which was a transport, or they were a DC4, DC6. So it was a lot of the wartime aircraft, whether they be transport or bomber, were adapted for aviation after the war.
JK: Excuse me. Alright. Is this an opportune moment to take you up for lunch?
BB: Yes. Of course.
JK: Alright.
WL: So, Wally. We’ll finish it here.
WL: Yeah.
BB: I will come back after lunch and take some pictures.
JK: Right. Ok.
BB: Or we could that now if you like. Before lunch.
JK: That’s ok.
BB: Ok. And we can talk over lunch. Ok.
JK: Ok. Has he been alright? Has he been —
BB: He’s been fine.
JK: Right, Dad. Do you want to have a wee sip of your sherry? I’m going take you up for lunch. I’ll just take you up in your chariot. Ok.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Well, Wally, thank you very much for sharing your adventures with me.
WL: [unclear]
BB: And I’ll peruse your logbooks and take some photographs after lunch if that’s alright.
WL: Yes. That’s fine.
BB: And then I’ll leave you in peace, but thank you very much for allowing me to come in and talk to you.
WL: Well, I hope it was [unclear]
BB: It is. Wally. Wally, you’re such a character and your medals tell your story really. And as I said my generation and a lot of other people owe you and your colleagues in Bomber Command, many of which are not here, a tremendous debt of gratitude. Particularly as after the war Bomber Command was, was forgotten, the achievements were forgotten. Mainly through politicians trying to distance themselves from the bombing campaign which was terrible. I mean them doing it. And now with the Memorial at Hyde Park Corner, The Bomber Command Memorial, plus the one that’s going up in, has gone up in Lincoln and this archive that we’re here today to record your history, is a testament and an oral monument to you guys. So, thank you very much. I salute you.
JK: Ok. And a personal thing, well not personal, that was Dad receiving his Bomber Command clasp.
BB: Clasp from Bob Kemp. Yes, I know. Bob was one of my COs in the RAF.
JK: Oh right. Lift your foot a minute, Dad. Right foot.
BB: That’s on the benevolent fund website.
JK: Oh right. Well you’ll know that one. And then above is when he was a hundred.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
JK: This is —
BB: Letter from the queen.
JK: Yeah. And this was the Deputy Lord Lieutenant. His name is David Dickson.
BB: Right.
JK: His father was involved with the Cadets, Colonel Seton Dickson.
BB: Right.
JK: And his son is now the deputy lord lieutenant and visits my Dad quite often.
BB: Oh that’s great.
JK: And is a lovely person. This was Dad on his hundredth birthday with my older sisters.
BB: Right.
JK: Diane, who lives in Florida. And that was my two children Michael and Sarah.
BB: Oh, how nice.
JK: This is Sarah here as well.
BB: My daughter’s called Sarah.
JK: Yeah. Sarah’s thirty two, she’s a pharmacy technician. Sadly, Michael was killed in an industrial accident.
BB: Oh, I’m sorry.
JK: Four years ago, when he was twenty six. But he was, he and dad were rascals together.
BB: Is that right Wally?
JK: Yes.
BB: Rascals together. Eh.
JK: You and Michael.
WL: Oh aye.
JK: Right.
WL: We got on well.
JK: Right. We’re going to go up now and get into the chair. Ok. And we’ll take you up.
BB: Yeah.
JK: You’re going to go to the quiet tearoom to have your lunch with Bruce.
WL: I can leave my stuff here. Yes?
JK: Yes. If you want to take the logbooks with you to have a look at.
WL: When I come back. You lock this place presumably. It’s safe enough. I want to come back and take some pictures of the medals and just peruse the logbooks. Ask any questions that come from them but —
JK: Well what we’ll do is —
WL: I don’t want to tire him.
JK: They actually don’t. My Dad doesn’t use the key for his door so —
WL: Right.
JK: So what I’ll do I’ll put them, I’ll give them to Ann in at the office and you can get them when you finish lunch. Just in case anybody wandered in and out. I’ve discussed with Dad. These are — these are —
WL: Sorry.
JK: Museum pieces now.
BB: Oh they are. They’re very valuable.
JK: So — well not so much that but —
BB: Well I can tell you what they’re worth right now. I mean that little group with the logbooks, about twenty five thousand pounds.
JK: Oh really. Really. Well they will eventually go to — probably Halton.
BB: That would be a great thing to do.
JK: Because there’s not much point keeping them in a drawer at home is there? Once, you know —
BB: Well they might be good for grandchildren.
JK: Well I doubt if — they would have been Michael’s but —
BB: Right.
JK: As I say. That didn’t work out.
BB: Ok. Well, you have daughters.
JK: I know but I’d rather them be seen by a lot of people.
BB: No. I understand. I understand.
JK: You know. And there are so many people who now who are very, very interested.
BB: Yes.
JK: You know, and Dad and I was just discussing what you said earlier on about, you know, Bomber Command being kind of shoved under the carpet almost.
JK: You’ll be done by —
BB: Oh half an hour or so.
JK: Shall we say about 2 o’clock or something like that.
BB: Yes, that would be fine.
JK: I don’t know when —
BB: I don’t want to tire him out.
JK: Oh, he’ll be fine. He’s not going anywhere.
Other: I’ll do it, I’ll do all that Jessica.
BB: Thank you very much.
Other: You go and do what you have to do.
JK: That’s his logbook and medals.
Other: Right.
BB: I’ll look after them.
Other: Right. Ok. Yeah.
JK: And I’ll go down to Marie Curie and see what I can pick up.
Other: Thanks a lot.
JK: Alright Dad, I’ll be back after lunch.
WL: Right. Ok then.
JK: Bruce is going to have lunch with you and then take you back to your room for some photographs.
BB: Right.
JK: And then take you back to your room for some photographs, so don’t spill tomato soup all down your front. Ok.
WL: [unclear]
JK: I’m joking.
BB: I used to do — I do that.
JK: And then I’ll come back. Ok.
WL: Ok love.
JK: And take Bruce to the station.
BB: Yeah.
JK: Ok. So are you alright with that?
BB: Yes. Yes. Alright.
JK: Ok. I’ll see you in a wee bit. Behave.
BB: Yeah. Right.
JK: See you later. Bye.
Other: Would you like some orange juice or something as well.
BB: No. It’s fine.
Other: Are you sure? Wally, can I pour your wine for you?
WL: Yes please.
Other: Yes. How’s your morning been Wally. Ok?
WL: Excellent.
Other: Are you in good hands.
WL: Yeah [unclear]
Other: Are you alright with a little bit of wine.
BB: Of course.
Other: Help yourself.
BB: I’m not driving. I just get on a train. I’ve got the easy job.
Other: Wally likes a wee bit of wine or champagne don’t you, Wally?
BB: Well, I don’t blame him. So do I.
WL: Yeah.
Other: There you are my darling.
WL: Thank you.
BB: I go and see, I go and see my GP he says, or the nurse, and she says how many units of alcohol do you think you drink in a week Mr Blanche? And I go —
Other: Not much.
BB: Not much. So I say about fifty a week.
Other: Yeah.
JK: I’ll take that.
Other: Yes. Of course.
BB: She does the wee sums, ‘Oh that’s fine.’
Other: We always —
BB: But she know —
Other: We always fib about these things.
BB: She knows she can add another.
Other: Yeah.
BB: How does that come off.
Other: Shall I get it for you.
BB: Oh I see.
Other: Got it.
BB: Got it now.
Other: I’ll take it away. Right. Ok. I’ll leave you and Wally in peace.
BB: Thank you very much.
Other: And your lunch will be through in a minute Wally.
WL: That’s alright.
Other: Right.
WL: No problem. Thank you.
BB: Thank you, Wally. That’s really good.
WL: This is our secret room.
BB: It’s a lovely room isn’t it?
WL: Yeah.
BB: It’s a lovely place here? Anyway, Wally, here we are. Cheers mate. Happy landings.
WL: I’ve got one there now.
BB: Happy landings.
WL: Yeah. Cheers.
BB: Happy landings. Happy landings. Yeah, my poor old uncle. Twenty one when he was killed.
WL: Hmmn?
BB: My uncle was twenty one.
WL: Twenty one.
BB: Yeah. He, he was Australian. He left home when he was seventeen and a half.
WL: Oh that’s terrible.
BB: And joined the Royal Australian Air Force. Did his initial training in, at Point Cook in Australia on Tiger Moths and then he went to Rhodesia?
WL: Rhodesia.
BB: To do his, yeah, in the Empire Air Training Scheme. He was trained in Rhodesia where he went on to some other light aircraft. And he came to the UK, and then he went on to the Airspeed Oxford.
WL: Oh right.
BB: To do his twin.
WL: Yeah.
BB: On the Oxford.
WL: Oh.
BB: And then he went on to the OTU at Kinloss. Number 19 OTU.
Other: Sorry, excuse me. There we are Wally.
BB: To crew up. He crewed up there.
Other: There you go.
WL: Thank you.
BB: Then he went on to Wigsley. To the Heavy Conversion Unit.
WL: Where?
BB: Wigsley in Nottinghamshire.
WL: Nottinghamshire.
BB: 1654 HCU.
WL: I didn’t know him.
BB: No. No. No. And then he went on to 9 Squadron at Bardney. Completed his thirty trips. Was screened as an instructor at OTU. And then there was a mid-air collision and he was killed with members of both crews. So, it was a big shame really.
WL: Yeah.
BB: He was killed in a mid-air collision while he was instructing. So, it was —
WL: Oh dear, that’s sad.
BB: Yes. That’s terrible. Having completed thirty ops during 1943 early ’44.
WL: What aircraft was he on?
BB: He was in Lancasters when flying operationally.
WL: A Lancaster.
BB: Yeah. But when he crashed he was in a Wellington 10.
WL: Wellington.
BB: Yeah. They were used at the OTUs to train.
WL: I used to be on a Wellington squadron at one time.
BB: Yes. Did you? Oh right.
WL: Marham.
BB: Oh at Marham. What were the Wimpies like to fly? They were a very strong aeroplane. They took a lot of punishment.
WL: [unclear] you had to be careful with your landing. The undercarriage wasn’t all that good. But I had [unclear] a short time. I get lost with the the aircraft I was on. I flew eighty different types.
BB: Eighty different types. Wally, what a tremendous feat.
WL: Yeah. Including the Lancaster.
BB: What did you think of the — what did you —
WL: I didn’t fly a Lancaster —
BB: Operationally, no just fell in that sort of stuff. Hamlyns. Hamlyn squadron —
WL: Hampdens.
BB: Hamlyns. Oh. ok.
WL: Pilots notes.
BB: Oh, pilots notes. Ok. Yeah.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Well I mean, the Halifax, the Lancaster and the Stirling were the heavies. The four engine bombers.
WL: Yeah.
BB: When you speak to the Lancaster people they go — oh well the Halifax. Yeah. Then you speak to Halifax people and they go uh Lancasters.
WL: Well I was Halifaxes of course, but I always felt, shall we say, a little inferior to the Lancaster.
BB: It didn’t have, it couldn’t get the height could it? The Halifax.
WL: It couldn’t get the height and it couldn’t do the stuff. Not like the Lancaster.
BB: No. It didn’t but it was the mainstay of Bomber Command.
WL: But the Dambusters.
BB: The Dambusters.
WL: Yeah.
BB: I’m afraid I agree with Butch Harris on these panacea targets and these elite squadrons. Harris was very anti all of that, you know. He thought it was taking the effort away from the main task of bombing the cities.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Did Bomber Harris ever come to your station and meet the crews? As you remember.
WL: I’m trying to think. I don’t think so. I usually did the, sort of exhibition.
BB: Yeah.
WL: Circuit or whatever.
BB: He was an interesting character, Harris. You either loved him or you hated him.
WL: I don’t remember —
BB: Bomber Harris. He was the CnC of Bomber Command. Butch Harris.
WL: That’s right. I know who he was.
BB: Yeah.
WL: But I can’t remember if I did meet him.
BB: Well he didn’t — he very seldom left High Wycombe but when he did he usually went off to a squadron to show his face or whatever.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But he was, he was the face of Bomber Command and —.
WL: The Lancaster was on its own. I mean —
BB: Oh, unique. It was a beautiful bomber.
WL: Yeah. I —
BB: Roy Chadwick did a wonderful job.
WL: I always thought so. Compared with the Halifax.
BB: Yeah.
WL: We should have —
BB: The Lanc had the height. It had the speed.
WL: The secondhand type.
BB: Well you know yes, the Lancaster was the cream. The king of Bomber Command.
WL: Absolutely.
BB: But you know —
WL: We were all very jealous.
BB: Sure, but I mean the Halifax did a good job. I mean it was in 3 Group mainly. 4 Group. And it did, it did a lot of good work.
WL: Yeah.
BB: It just didn’t have the charisma of the Lancaster.
WL: And didn’t have the Dambusters to glorify them.
BB: I think, I think too much is made of the Dambusters but never mind.
WL: Hmmn?
BB: I think too much is made of the Dambusters.
WL: Yeah. Probably.
BB: Guy Gibson was not — I mean he wasn’t liked by everybody.
WL: Is that right?
BB: Some of the, some of the ground crews on the squadrons when he was —
WL: Hmmn?
BB: Before he was famous some of the ground crews didn’t like him very much, but a great, I mean a very brave man. No doubt about that but —
WL: I don’t think I ever met him.
BB: No.
WL: No.
BB: Well, it’s really nice being able to have lunch with you Wally. Thank you very much.
WL: I did a quick circuit and landing in a Halifax.
BB: I mean the Halifax was interesting because the — as I remember, correct me if I’m wrong, the navigator sat in the front. In that big glass dome at the front of the Halifax.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And the flight engineer was up with the pilot and then the wireless op was sort of behind.
WL: That’s right.
BB: And then the gunners were, were appropriately placed in the mid-upper and the tail.
WL: The rear turret. The rear turret. The rear turret caught it all the time.
BB: Yeah. It wasn’t, it wasn’t a very, very survivable position but I’ve talked to many —
WL: It was one of the most vulnerable.
BB: Yeah, very vulnerable, but the rear gunner really was the eyes of the aircraft and his diligence and eyesight often saved, saved the crew you know, you know. ‘Watch out skipper. Corkscrew port’. ‘Corkscrew right’. Yeah. I mean my uncles rear gunner had been — he was, he was a regular but he was a naughty boy. He was a warrant officer. Kept on getting bussed down to —
WL: Sorry?
BB: My uncle’s rear gunner.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Was a regular. A chap called Clegg, and he was always in trouble with the RAF police. And he went to the aircrew punishment rehabilitation centre at Sheffield many times because he was just a naughty boy. So, my uncle had to, my uncle had to deal with a spare gunner every time he flew on an op because his rear gunner was in the clink.
WL: [laughs]
BB: But in the air he was super. Absolutely super. Saved the crew on many occasions.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But on the ground, Wally, he just women, drink, song. That was the rear gunner. But can you blame him? His life expectancy as a Lancaster rear gunner was what? Three or four ops. If he was lucky. That was —
WL: Yeah. That sounds bad.
BB: It was bad. it was bad.
WL: [unclear]
BB: Anyway, bon appetite.
WL: Thank you.
BB: Bon appetite [pause]. Lovely.
[pause]
WL: I was very, I was going to say Halifax minded.
BB: Yeah. Well you would be. I mean, you are, I mean, I appreciate the sexy lure of the Lancaster but it wasn’t the only bomber in Bomber Command and the Halifax did a tremendous job not only in the bomber role but in Coastal Command. In towing gliders. You know, it was a very versatile aircraft.
WL: Very versatile.
BB: And
WL: A freighter
BB: And in many ways —
WL: It finished as freighter really.
BB: Well they did. I mean —
WL: I mean I took things like propeller shafts as far as South America.
BB: Yeah. When you were flying.
WL: Yeah. Take them. Suspended the load you know and they also ships, ships shafts I took to Singapore.
BB: What? Propellers? To Singapore?
WL: Yeah.
BB: In the Halifax, as a freighter.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Gosh, that must have been a long trip, Wally. How long did that take?
WL: I took, I took them to South America.
BB: Were you part of the British South American Airlines that were —
WL: No. No. I just — I just —
BB: Yeah. With Skyways?
WL: Took a placement crankshaft of a ship. Something like that. No. I suppose it was the heaviest freighter around at the time
BB: The Halifax could take quite a load couldn’t it? I mean if it could take a bomb load.
WL: Yeah.
BB: It could take heavy equipment.
WL: Heavy shafts underneath
BB: They’re all, they’re all practising for the Air Show tomorrow, Wally
WL: Is that what it is?
BB: Prestwick Air Show tomorrow.
WL: Prestwick Air Show is it?
BB: Tomorrow. Yeah. Over the weekend.
WL: What have they got to show.
BB: Yeah. Well I hope everything’s going to be ok there. I hope so.
[pause]
BB: So, when you got your DFM, DFC, etcetera, did you have to go to Buckingham Palace to get it?
WL: Yeah.
BB: And the King. The King —
WL: Wait a minute. I have a feeling that I got mine on parade.
BB: Oh, you got it on the station.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Someone came along and pinned the DFC on you.
WL: The Queen twice anyway.
BB: Yeah. Must have been, must have been very interesting to —
WL: She was quite, how do we say, very attracted by the DFM’s stripe.
BB: Yeah.
WL: And the DFC.
BB: The DFC is a thicker stripe.
WL: That’s right.
BB: The DFM is thinner.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And then the AFC is like a DFC, but red.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. It’s quite interesting.
WL: I remember the Queen saying, ‘Oh, you’ve nearly got your set.’
BB: You’ve nearly got the set. Yeah.
WL: Yeah.
BB: She does have a sense of humour. When I got my medal from the Queen, Wally, in the year 2000, I was amazed how knowledgeable she was about what I had done.
WL: Yeah. Amazing.
BB: She is tremendously well informed.
WL: [unclear]
BB: Well informed and you know I was looking for the ear piece in case someone was saying you know.
WL: Yeah.
BB: This is so and so and so and so. But no. No. No. She just - she was just amazing.
WL: Beautiful.
BB: Amazing. I had the privilege of meeting her just recently and very, very, you know interested in people and caring. Caring. She really is a genuinely very nice lady and works very hard.
WL: I remember she said how are the Cadets doing now?
BB: The Air Cadets are doing very well. They are an integral part of various schools and organisations. Both public schools and secondary schools. Government schools. No, it’s a great — all my, two of my children were Cadets. My daughter Rachel got an Air Cadet scholarship to learn to fly.
WL: Did she?
BB: Yeah. And my son was registered in the Cadets as well and they did — the Cadets is a wonderful organisation whether they be Army, Navy or Air Force.
WL: Yes, they —
BB: Because they teach youngsters initiative, discipline, be proud of themselves.
WL: Respect.
BB: Respect. And they go on whether they join the armed forces or not that training and that discipline stands them in good form for, for the future.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And it’s a pity there wasn’t more of that around. I mean, it’s not, it’s not for every child.
WL: I agree with you. Yeah.
BB: It’s not for every child but, you know, if you’ve got the aptitude and you like all the outdoors and the gliding and all the things that they teach you in the Air Cadets like, you know, social. You know, just to get on with people, do well at school, educate, be respectful and above all discipline. All sorts. And I don’t mean discipline in the straight military sense.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But just how you manage your life and how you, how you proceed with your life. It’s a tremendous opportunity and it’s a pity that more, more youngsters don’t have the opportunity to take advantage of it. In my view.
WL: I agree with them certainly.
BB: In my view. Because unfortunately, I’ve switched this thing off now, unfortunately, Wally there’s no discipline in the home and there’s no discipline at school anymore. And so, the kids essentially just do what they want. And that’s terrible.
WL: The only way they’ll get respect —
BB: That’s terrible.
WL: Is in things like the Cadets.
BB: I mean the transition from my son who was — he had two elder sisters. All very bright, Wally. The sisters were very bright at school. My son always felt, ‘They’ve, you know, they’re brilliant. I’m not so brilliant’, and it was trying to get him to get out of that mindset to think that he is ok as well. And that’s what the Air Cadets did for him. The Air Cadets brought him out. Gave him self-confidence. Gave him belief in himself a lot more.
WL: Definitely.
BB: That’s tremendous. And now, Wally and I’ll tell you when he goes out now, he presses his trousers, he cleans his shoes.
WL: Great
BB: He just looks, he takes pride in what he looks like and that’s good. And so, it’s done him a tremendous amount of — its boosted his confidence when he needed his confidence boosted, you know. And having two elder sisters who were good at everything, didn’t have to work hard at school. It just came naturally to them.
WL: Children.Girls.
BB: I’ve got two girls and a boy.
WL: [unclear]
BB: And the girls are much older. There’s four years difference between them and but my son always felt slightly put out by his elder sisters who used to, who were always, ‘You can do that. It’s easy. Why can’t you do that’ and that kind of thing.. Did you have any brothers and sisters, Wally?
WL: No.
BB: No.
WL: I had a sister. Well, I was in the Air Force when the girls two or three years younger than, younger than me.
BB: Yes, that’s right. I went to see a, I went to see a gentleman, oh, two or three months ago who had been a bomb aimer. Someone like you. I went to interview someone like you who had been a bomb aimer. And he was ninety eight. He was a youngster, Wally, a youngster.
WL: Ninety eight.
BB: Yeah, and he was on Halifaxes and he had started off as an erk and, and when, when the bomb aiming aircrew category devolved itself from the flying observer —
WL: Yeah.
BB: Category. He volunteered and he saw a thing in routine orders, you know, volunteer for aircrew and he became a bomb aimer and he did that, and became a bomb aimer. And he was saying he was never very popular with, with his crew, because if he couldn’t see the target, he made them go around again. ‘Sorry skipper. Target obscured. Got to go around again’. Now, you know what that’s like as a pilot. You know, ‘Let’s get the hell out of here. what the hell are we doing here. They’re shooting at us’. Yeah. ‘Go around again? You must be mad’, you know. But anyway, he and of course —
WL: If he was over the real target, he might be —
BB: Bomber Command had the photoflash. Right.
WL: Yeah.
BB: You had to get the picture. You had to get the picture and so, he went around and so his captain was always saying, ‘Hurry up’, you know, ‘We’ve got to go’.
WL: Shot down again.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But he said what was the point of taking a bomb load all that way and not dropping it in the right place, but that was his view as a bomb aimer.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Yeah, I mean it’s why you’re there, you know. And he said, he said, ‘I really wanted to be a pilot, but they made me a bomb aimer’, and he said, ‘At the end of the day, I was glad I was a bomb aimer because’, he said, ‘The pilot had a drivers airframe. They take you from A to B. you drop your bombs and they fly you home again’. That was his —
WL: His.
BB: That was his concept of — you know.
WL: Yes.
BB: That’s how he rationalised not being selected for pilot training. That his job was — you know. But it was the crew, and the crew was cohesive, and sometimes you had, for example, going back to my late uncle, if the crew was disrupted by somebody being sick and they got a spare bod in to flying with them, they felt, ‘Oh this isn’t, this isn’t right. We’re going to be unlucky here. We’ve got a new bloke’, you know. And it was usually the rear gunner, Wally.
WL: Aye.
BB: So, they were all worried about, you know, is he as good as our regular gunner because you know. And it was amazing. I don’t know whether you found it in your experience. On every squadron.
WL: Hmmn?
BB: On every squadron on Bomber Command —
WL: Yeah.
BB: There was a pool of spare gunners. Now whether they had lost their crews, or had been sick with the crew went out and they never came back, but he was left — these guys were like, in a pool. They’d say to someone, ‘You got a gunner for tonight?’ ‘No’. ‘Well I’m free if you want, you know, want a gunner’. It must have been awful for them because you know they were a spare bod here.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Spare bod there. Not really part of any crew. Just spare bods.
WL: Not nice. Wasn’t as nice anyway.
BB: No. But of course, the gunners were very vulnerable, especially the rear gunner, as you know. I mean Lancs would come back shot up and the rear gunner still in his turret, you know, and dead and —
WL: Aye. My gunner was killed when we were shot down.
BB: That’s right, I saw that on the —
WL: Hmmn?
BB: I saw that on your —
WL: Yeah.
BB: Story. No, Wally. It’s all a long time ago, but the lessons of history — we ignore them at our peril, Wally. We ignore them at our peril. I mean I, when I served, we — I was thirty three years a reservist, and I was in intelligence. That was my role and so I was briefing and debriefing crews, you know, sending off and when they came back, sitting down and, ‘Did you get the target?’
WL: Debrief them.
BB: Yeah. Yeah. But this was during the war in the Gulf. The Gulf War.
WL: In the Gulf.
BB: Yeah. With Iraq and so on. And you know, aircrew, I love them dearly, but all these guys wanted to do was to come in, dump their stuff and go to bed. Natural enough. But I would say, ‘No guys. You’ve got to sit down, and I’ve got to write the debrief’. So you know. ‘Captain — did you reach the target?’ ‘Yes, we did’. ‘Navigator — did you drop’, because it was pilot navigator — ‘did you drop the bombs’. ‘Yes, we did’. ‘Do you have a picture?’ ‘Yes’. Of course, the picture now are all scanned television type pictures, you know.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But we lost a couple of aircraft. The guys had to eject and were taken prisoner by the Iraqis and so on.
WL: Not good.
BB: Not good but —
WL: Where were they taken prisoner?
BB: In Iraq.
WL: Yeah. [unclear]
BB: Sorry?
WL: [unclear]
BB: Sufficient to say the bad guys got them. The bad guys got them.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But they managed, one of them managed to escape and was in the desert. He did all his survival stuff. And he of course, nowadays, Wally, they’ve got something like this and they go, press a button and beep, beep, beep. All the helicopters and aeroplanes log on to this signal.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And they just they just go and get him. Winch him up in a helicopter and take him home. If he’s lucky. I mean, I was telling you when we were in your room about the guys in the dinghy. The ditched crew. I mean.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Awful. They by the time the Air Sea Rescue launch got to them, the medical officer on the launch, on the HSL, high speed launch, said to one them, ‘You’re lucky. A few more hours and you would have been [click]’. Just exposure.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Yeah. I mean, you imagine sitting in a five man Lancaster type dinghy.
WL: That’s amazing. These people.
BB: Hello.
Other2: Hello. I thought I recognised your face. Maybe. I’m not sure. I used to speak to Wally and tell him that I used to work down in the RAFA club many years ago.
BB: What? In Edinburgh.
Other2: No. In Prestwick.
BB: In Prestwick.
Other2: The RAF Club. And I wondered did you go to it?
BB: No. I live in Dunblane.
Other2: Oh. You’re up in Dunblane.
BB: Yes, I, apart from being down at Prestwick a couple of times when I was with the Royal Air Force, I haven’t been back.
Other2: Right.
BB: I’m here to interview Wally on his Bomber Command experiences.
Other2: Oh.
BB: But thank you for all your hard work with RAFA. It’s a wonderful organisation.
Other2: Aye. It’s great. And you’re up from England now. Have you come up from down south?
BB: No, I live in Dunblane.
WL: You are in Dunblane.
BB: Yeah. Yeah.
WL: No, the reason I was asking you that — such a coincidence. Wally, do you remember the day when I was talking to you about my brother-in-law and about the gentleman that’s coming up from England.
BB: Yeah.
Other2: To speak to him because, sorry Ann.
Other: That’s alright.
BB: Ann. That was lovely. I really enjoyed that. Really good.
Other: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I’ll get a tray to clear away, Wally, alright.
BB: I’m very lucky.
Other: Are you alright.
WL: Yes. Thank you.
BB: Wally’s lucky to have such wonderful food. Thank you.
Other2: And because I remember him saying that he was a — oh what was the planes that they landed the pilots on. Oh, my God, my head’s gone dark.
BB: Don’t worry about it.
Other2: He phoned me and they’re interviewing men, and there’s somebody coming up to speak to him about it.
BB: Right. Ok.
Other2: About his experiences because he’s apparently, one of the few that get out of Armagh or something like that and then —
BB: Arnhem.
Other2: Arnhem.
BB: They used to tow the gliders into Arnhem.
Other2: The gliders. Ah huh.
BB: With the Halifaxes and Stirlings.
Other2: That’s it. That’s what he did.
BB: My uncle. My mother’s brother was a glider pilot during the war.
Other2: Yeah.
BB: And he flew into Arnhem.
Other2: Ah huh.
BB: And he was trained to fly by the RAF.
Other2: That’s right.
BB: At the glider pilot schools and then he flew a Horsa glider behind, towed by a Halifax and dropped, landed his glider. And he said it was like a controlled crash. It wasn’t a landing at all. You put it down as best you could in a field at night.
Other2: As best you could. Yes.
BB: You know, and everybody ran off and scrambled out. And then of course the glider pilots had to become infantry then.
Other2: That’s absolutely right. Absolutely. Well that’s what my brother-in-law did. And some great experiences, and him and Wally could have had so many —
BB: A very brave man indeed. Very brave men.
Other2: So much in common. They had great conversations, the two of them.
Other: Are you finished Wally?
Other2: But my brother-in-law is absolute deaf.
BB: Well, Wally is a Halifax man of course. The Halifax was used in that role.
Other2: That’s right. But my husband, my brother-in-law is so deaf, that he wouldn’t hear Wally talking to him.
BB: No. No.
Other2: A shame really.
BB: It is a shame.
Other2: Because they could have had some great conversations, couldn’t you, Wally?
WL: Definitely.
Other2: The two of yous [unclear] Sorry about disturbing you here.
BB: No problem at all.
Other2: Ok.
BB: Thank you very much. That was very —
Other: Oh, you’ve still got some wine left there, have you finished?
BB: I think so. Thank you.
WL: Aye.
Other: Are you still recording? You’ll be getting all these voices in the background.
BB: No, we’re off.
Other: Off.
BB: Yeah. We’re off.
WL: Good.
BB: No. No. There’s a limit, you know. I don’t want to push him.
Other: Yeah. Push him too hard.
WL: I don’t want to push him.
Other: No. Well, Wally’s got lots of stories. I love Wally’s stories.
WL: Ok.
Other: I love Wally in fact.
BB: What I’ll try and do then we’ll try and get you a transcript. A copy of the tape.
Other: A transcript. Yeah. That would be great.
BB: Just for, because it’s about preserving Wally’s story for the future.
Other: Oh, of course. Yeah.
BB: For posterity.
Other: He’s a hundred and three in January.
BB: Well I wish I’d look so good.
Other: I said to him we have to get a bigger cake every time.
BB: I wish I looked as good as him now.
Other: Oh, he’s fantastic. I’ve said to him, if I was ninety I would marry him. But I suppose it’s manners to wait till you’re asked, Wally. Yeah.
WL: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
BB: Wally, you’d be baby snatching.
WL: Aye.
BB: See. She wants to marry you, Wally. How about that?
WL: Aye. She’s a character.
BB: Eh?
WL: Ann [unclear]
BB: Oh dear. You’re a character.
WL: Aye.
BB: Let me take a picture of these medals while I remember. What a lovely — I mean, you know, Wally, these are tremendous. These are tremendous. Military MBE, DFC, DFC. AFC, DFM.
WL: That’s right.
BB: Bomber Command clasp on your 1939/45 medal which Bob Kemp came and gave it to you. Aircrew Europe, Africa star, defence medal, war medal with mentioned in dispatches. Coronation medal and Air Cadet.
WL: How many mentions in despatches have I got there.
BB: One. One. One oak leaf.
WL: [unclear] Two actually.
BB: Well you’d better write to them and say give me another oak leaf.
WL: Yeah. That was way back.
Other: Do you wish to go back down to Wally’s room?
WL: No. I’m just going to, the logbooks and everything are here.
Other: That’s fine. Do you want to stay here then?
WL: Would that be alright?
Other: You can stay as long as you like. Are you comfortable Wally?
WL: Aye.
Other: Are you sure? Are you warm enough?
WL: Yeah. Fine. No problem.
Other: Ok. I’ll be back in about ten just to see you’re ok.
WL: We won’t be long.
Other: I’m not rushing you at all.
WL: I might go back to the room to take some pictures later.
Other: You want Wally down there? No?
WL: No, he’s comfortable here and I don’t want to disrupt him too much.
Other: Right.
WL: No. We can go back —
Other: I can take Wally down in his wheelchair.
BB: Ok. Well we’ll go back there.
Other: Well finish that. I’ll come back in ten minutes.
WL: Right.
BB: Finish your drink, Wally. That’s great. Thank you. You know I can’t, I can’t explain.
WL: Sorry.
BB: I can’t explain with how much — what a great honour it is to talk to you and others like you, Wally. Others like you. Because my uncle didn’t survive so I couldn’t talk to him.
WL: No. I’m a bit dumb too.
BB: And you know its, its just, you know, you guys, you guys in Bomber Command, you weren’t the brillcream boys of Fighter Command, you know, you were the guys that night after night got in your aircraft.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Flew over Germany. Over occupied Europe to get to your target. You had night fighters, you had flak, you had the weather.
WL: Navigation.
BB: You had — oh yeah, we’ll get on to navigation in a minute. But until the advent of Oboe and Gee and H2S, you know. I mean, one of the big problems with Bomber Command at the early part of the war, was actually getting to the target.
WL: Oh yeah.
BB: Until the boffins came up with all these navigational aids which, of course, were a double-edged sword as you know, Wally, because they put out a signal and the German night fighters could home on it.
WL: Oh my —
BB: And you had things to jam the night fighter’s radars and they had things to counter that. The electronic war. The electronics war. If we had lost the electronics war it would have been pandemonium. You know, Bomber Command losses were high enough, but you know the boffins. War is a great innovator. All sorts of things come out of the war that wouldn’t have happened if there hadn’t been a war.
WL: Yeah.
BB: Like take the jet engine. I mean, would we have had the jet engine in 1945.
WL: I don’t —
BB: Without Whittle and the need for a jet fighter to counter the German jet fighters. We probably wouldn’t have had it until the 1950s, probably the early 60s.
WL: Aye.
BB: You know I was talking to a chap in the RAF club in London not so long ago, who was a fighter pilot. An American. He was over. He flew the P51D. The Mustang which used to go and escort American bombers into Germany.
WL: P51 were a quick aircraft.
BB: Yeah. And he actually tangled with a Messerschmitt 262 in his, in his Mustang ‘cause these things came up high. Zoomed through the bomber stream, squirting away.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And then zoomed away with their rocket, you know, with their jet aircraft. Over the top, down again and he managed to catch one. He was flying along like this, it was just going up like that and he gave it a fifteen second burst. It was going so fast and he didn’t think he’d hit it but as it got to the top of its loop it blew up. So he must have, must have hit something.
WL: Caught a shell.
BB: You know, I was also speaking to a Luftwaffe pilot who flew them. And he said at the end of the runway you wind it all up - zzzzz - and he said none of the pilots of the Luftwaffe, when they first flew the jets, realised the thrust. They were kind of put back in to their seats like this and pushing back on the stick.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And you know how, in the Messerschmitt, you gently do this. In a jet, if you did that, it would just —
WL: Yeah.
BB: Straight up.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And he said it was very frightening. And, of course, the technology wasn’t brilliant. I mean it was, it was new but these things used to blow up, Wally. Just like that. The rocket engines just went and, of course, the fuel it was it was very very dangerous. This is your DFM. I’m just making some notes here. 563198 [pause] right.
[pause]
WL: I was in a twin engine — what do you call it?
BB: Mosquito?
WL: Eh?
BB: Mosquito.
WL: Yeah. Twin engine Mosquito.
BB: Yeah.
WL: I got up to thirty two thousand.
BB: Bloody hell, Wally that —
WL: And I throttled to go downhill. I throttled back and when I tried to open the throttles it wouldn’t. It wouldn’t work.
BB: Wouldn’t work.
WL: Apparently the jets wouldn’t catch alight again.
BB: No. No the —
WL: And there was me thirty two thousand feet.
BB: Nothing on the clock [laughs]
WL: No motors.
BB: Thirty two thousand feet. No engines. But you had the height, Wally, you had the height.
WL: Yeah.
BB: So you were able to do something. What did you do? Put it into a dive and just hope for the best.
WL: No. I did the old [unclear]
BB: Right.
WL: I tapped it, if you like, tactically approached the airfield.
BB: Right.
WL: So that I was fortunate enough — my judgement was such that I just come over the edge of the airfield and landed.
BB: Gosh.
WL: Aye.
BB: Yeah. So long as you walked away from the landing, Wally. That’s fine.
WL: Yeah. I walked away alright.
BB: Yeah. You know the old saying. There’s old pilots and bold pilots.
WL: Yeah.
BB: But there’s no old bold pilots.
WL: Right.
BB: This was at Prestwick.
WL: Yes. It would appear that the jets wouldn’t function.
BB: Yeah.
WL: At that altitude.
BB: Lack of air. Lack of oxygen.
WL: [unclear]
BB: Couldn’t reignite. I was privileged to meet recently the current Duke of Hamilton.
WL: Oh yeah.
BB: Who, of course, ran Prestwick. Scottish Aviation.
WL: Yeah.
BB: And of course, he was — the original duke was a pilot himself and flew over Everest and did all that sort of stuff.
WL: Was he the one who went — the first man over Everest.
BB: That’s the one. Yeah that’s him. That’s him. That’s him, Wally. Gosh. What a big logbook you have here. Lots and lots of aeroplanes. Lots and lots of aeroplanes. 10 OTU. That’s where you went. Jurby, Isle of Man. Number 10 OTU.
WL: Hmmm?
BB: Number 10, Isle of Man. Where you did your initial training.
WL: Is that right?
BB: Yeah. On such wonderful aircraft as — what was it? Let’s see. Whitleys.
WL: Whitleys.
BB: Yeah.
WL: Oh aye old Whitley.
BB: Yeah. Whitley 3s. My uncle flew at his OTU at Kinloss. The Whitley flew like that as you know. Nose down like that.
WL: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: Awful bloody aeroplane. Dear oh dear. So you were B flight. Gosh. What a tremendous history here, Wally. So what were your total flying hours at the end? Let’s have a look.
WL: [unclear] Six thousand I suppose [unclear]
Other: Wally, when you’re ready my darling. Have you enjoyed that, Wally?
WL: Very much so.
Other: Good.
BB: What a wonderful history .
Other: I know. It’s amazing isn’t it?
BB: You know he is unique. Wally is unique.
Other: Yes. He is.
BB: Absolutely unique. You know, I was just saying to him that my uncle was killed in Bomber Command and I was brought up with his picture on the mantle piece, and ‘cause I was brought up by my grandparents, my parents were abroad and separated, I went to a wee, I went to a wee school in the borders. One teacher for everything.
Other: Wow.
BB: You know.
Other: Yeah.
BB: And you had the strap.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: If I was a naughty boy. The tawse.
Other: Yeah.
BB: Naughty boy.
Other: I had the strap at school.
BB: But I went home to my grannys and this. I didn’t ask, but one Remembrance Sunday I was in the BB on parade and I said to my Granny, ‘Who’s that granny?’ Well that’s your uncle. He was killed in the war’. End of story. And when they died, of course, I grew up.
Other: Yeah. Of course . Yeah.
BB: Discovered girls.
Other: Yeah.
BB: All that sort of stuff. Went to university all that stuff. Got married. Had a career. Went home when they died. Cleared the place. And there was this picture still there. So I took it and I decided I’m going to find out who this guy is. Turned out it was my mother’s sister’s husband who was killed in the war.
Other: Right.
BB: They were married for two months and he was killed.
Other: Oh gosh. Yeah.
BB: You know he was in Bomber Command and he didn’t want to marry her when he was flying on operations.
Other: Yeah.
BB: Because he’d seen so many widows.
Other: Yeah.
BB: Been to so many funerals.
Other: I know its terrible.
BB: But they decided, at the end, that he would only marry her at the end of his trip.
Other: Yeah.
BB: And they got married. They were married I think three months when he was killed instructing but she was pregnant. So my cousin in Australia that’s his father.
Other: Oh his Dad. Right, Wally, shall we get you down to your room. Are you happy with that, Wally?
WL: Yes. Quite happy.
Other: Because Brian, you want to take pictures down there, do you?
BB: Lets get Wally back to his room.
Other: Yeah.
BB: Get him to rest. And then —
Other: I’m expecting the school kids in, Wally.
BB: Oh right ok. Ok.
WL: Alright.
Other: And Wally has a great connection with the kids. In fact, if you look at his zimmer frame, he’s got a Halifax on it and one of the kids made did that for you wasn’t it, Wally?
WL: That’s right. Yeah.
BB: Do you have a library here?
Other: No. Well, we have books but it’s not a library. No.
BB: Right. Ok. Well I’ve brought a book to give that I was going to give to Wally.
Other: Right.
BB: I’ll give it to the — to the —
Other: Right
BB: Somebody might want to read it.
Other: What is this book?
BB: It’s on Bomber Command.
Other: Oh right. Well. So who are you giving it to. The manager maybe.
BB: I’ll give it to you.
Other: Yeah.
BB: You look after him.
Other: Yeah. Myself and many others.
BB: Well exactly. But you can pass it around. It give an idea of what these chaps did.
Other: Yeah. Wally. Did you know Wally was friends with Lawrence of Arabia?
BB: Yes he told me about AC Shaw.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
BB: Aircraftman Shaw.
Other: Ah Wally. That’s us. Alright sir.
BB: Yeah.
Other: It’s just too long a walk for Wally. All those —
BB: Yes it is.
Other: He doesn’t often use his chariot.
WL: [unclear]
BB: Chariots of fire.
Other: Chariots. Would you hold that door for me? Thanks. You’re alright, Wally. You’re Ok. Here we go, Wally.
WL: Right.
Other: We usually try and get a bit of speed up.
BB: You’re not getting take off speed yet though.
Other: We’re just going along the runway, Wally.
BB: Wally you’re just at the end of the runway,. You’re at the end of the runway. Brakes off. Let’s go.
Other: Here we are.
BB: P1. P2. Rotate. You’re airborne. You’re airborne.
Other: Coming through Samantha.
WL: Here we come.
BB: Where are we?
Other: Straight ahead.
BB: Straight ahead. Right.
Other: At the corner.
BB: Right.
Other: At the corner we’re going right.
BB: Right. Ok. Nearly at base now. RTB.
[unclear]
BB: Return to base.
Other: There we are.
BB: Here we are Wally. Back in the hangar.
Other: Yes. Here Wally. Here’s a nice comfy seat for you. You see his zimmer. Look. Halifax.
BB: So do you want to —
Other: The kids did that. Yeah. Wally. Take you time darling. Take your time Wally. Let me get to this side. In the comfort of your own home Wally.
WL: That’s it.
Other: That’s better.
WL: Home again.
Other: Home again.
BB: There you are.
Other: Oh. Thank you so much.
BB: “The Bomber Boys.”
Other: That’s great.
BB: It’s little stories. It’s not one book.
Other: I’d love to read it.
BB: It’s lot of little stories.
Other: Great.
BB: And it gives you an insight into what, you know.
Other: Thank you so much.
BB: Of what himself went through. No problem. It’s a pleasure. It’s an honour.
Other: Are you comfy Wally? Do you want to sort yourself a bit?
WL: I’m alright.
Other: Sure?
WL: Yeah. I’m fine.
BB: Is his daughter coming back?
Other: Yes. Jessica’s coming back to get you I think.
BB: That’s great. Thanks.
Other: Where were we Wally? Oh yeah. Here’s your stuff back. I’ll just take the photographs.
[informal chatting]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wally Lashbrook
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALashbrookWI150903, PLashbrookW1501
Format
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01:20:36 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Wally was born in February 1913, and joined the Royal Air Force in 1929 as a RAF Halton apprentice, where he completed pilot training at RAF Prestwick. He flew many aircraft including Tiger Moths, Hendons and Halifaxes, and served with 51 Squadron and 102 Squadron. Reminisces of Colonel Thomas Edward Lawrence, who he met under the name of Aircraftman Shaw. Wally was shot down on an operation to Pilsen, where he evaded capture and returned to the United Kingdom. Describes and incident when he was in a Mosquito at 32,000 feet. Wally got involved with the Royal Air Force VR Training Branch and worked with Air Cadets. Wally was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal, the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Force Cross. After the war, he joined the British Overseas Airways Corporation as a civilian pilot.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Czech Republic
England--Buckinghamshire
Scotland--South Ayrshire
Czech Republic--Plzeň
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
102 Squadron
51 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
evading
Halifax
Mosquito
pilot
RAF Halton
RAF Prestwick
shot down
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/906/11148/AJuryAR171222.1.mp3
98a0bf003fdfd53882a00017743edf25
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jury, Alan
Alan Reginald Jury
A R Jury
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Alan Jury (b. 1941, 683847 Royal Air Force). He trained at RAF Halton and served an engineer post war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alan Jury and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jury, AR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Today, my name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 22nd of December 2017 and I’m in the village of Edith Weston next to North Luffenham Airfield where we’re going to talk with Squadron Leader Alan Jury, RAF retired who was an engineer. About his experiences in the RAF but also in relation to setting up a Memorial to a Lancaster that crashed on the outskirts of the village. So, Alan what are your earliest recollections of life?
AJ: My grandfather was in the Royal Navy in the First World War and was at the Battle of Jutland and he survived. My father was in the Royal Marines and survived the Second World War. All over the world in ships. He was a gunnery office on various ships. All over the world including Arctic convoys and the Pacific, Atlantic etcetera and he also served in Korea. He happened to be in the area on HMS Ceylon when the Korean War started and he also served in Korea. I was at school in Portsmouth. I went to Portsmouth Technical School. I left at seventeen. Whilst at school I joined the Combined Cadet Force. The RAF department. And I wanted to join the RAF primarily as a pilot but with no qualifications I thought I’d join as an apprentice. I took the apprentice exam, passed, and went to Halton in January 1958 as a member of the eighty eighth entry to train as an air frame fitter. I joined the RAF because at the Combined Cadet Force at the school we had to do the first year in the Army with our gaiters and breeches and all the rest of it and I didn’t enjoy life in the Army. I didn’t want to join the Navy because I’d been to Navy days and I didn’t like life on board the ships. But I did like the aeroplanes on board the aircraft carriers. So that’s why I joined the RAF as an apprentice. I selected a ground role because I had no qualifications at the time for aircrew. But whilst at Halton I passed out almost, there were three hundred people in my entry and I passed out towards at the top of my entry. I think I was about third or fourth in the entry and therefore went to Cranwell for air crew selection. To Daedalus House. Unfortunately, I failed my medical because I’d suffered from hay fever and asthma whilst at Halton and therefore I couldn’t go as aircrew. I was offered perhaps a commission as an engineering officer but I said no at the time. Rightly or wrongly. So, my initial training was at RAF Halton which included specialist training in both technical and schools. So, I then went to Halton as an apprentice and my first appointment was at RAF Thorney Island working in a hangar as a junior technician on Varsity aircraft in the scheduled servicing. However, being a new technician my job was mainly was cleaning up oily drip trays, and sweeping the hangar floor. I did some work on aeroplanes but mostly being a new junior technician I had to be, and in those days there were plenty of National Servicemen around who didn’t enjoy the work. I left the RAF in 1996 as a squadron leader and joined the Civil Service at RAF Wyton for five years working as the engineering authority for the Bulldog aircraft and its Lycoming engine and also looking after post-design services for the RAF gliders and motor glider with Grob. Unfortunately, the regulations in those days were that I left. You left the Civil Service at aged sixty. And so I retired at age sixty having done five years in the Civil Service as a senior grade. My service family life I was very fortunate that my wife supported me fully during my RAF career. For instance, we, I was posted to Singapore with, and we went together by air with a three month old baby. We had to find our own accommodation in Singapore because I was only a corporal and not enough points for married quarters. So she looked, supported me fully there whilst I worked at RAF Seletar. I then came back and again she supported me in my time at Coningsby and Woodhall Spa. I was on the Phantom project team as well in 1968, Patuxent River, and again I was fully supported because I had a week’s notice to going to America. To the USA because someone dropped out at the last moment and I was told at the time it would be a month. It actually worked out because the aircraft and the engine weren’t working properly. The Rolls Royce engine on the Phantom. I was actually there six months. But again my wife looked after the family. My boys at the time were just oh seven or eight years old about. But living in married quarters. So terrific support there. I then got commissioned in 1972 and again my wife followed me around. She was not working at the time. Whilst at Cranwell in the 70s, I think ’73, ‘74 she decided to go in to nursing and starting doing it part time as the children were growing up. Again, she followed me around to Binbrook and then to Wattisham where at Wattisham she, we lived in Stowmarket and she started her nursing training at Ipswich. Again, the boys were now growing up. Fifteen. Sixteen. From Wattisham I went to Swanton Morley and because of the boy’s education and my wife’s nursing training I actually lived in the officer’s mess for two and a half years at Swanton Morley. Going home at weekends. Again, very supportive. I then was posted to RAF Brampton as a staff officer. The headquarters of, I think Training Command or Support Command. And again, I lived in the officer’s mess and my wife would come across both at Swanton Morley and to RAF Brampton to support me at the officer’s mess. Summer balls, Christmas balls and wives’ nights etcetera. So again very supportive. From Brampton I was posted to Nairobi with a month’s notice. Again, my wife very supportive. I left her behind. She had to get rid of two cars, a caravan, and the boys, sort them with accommodation and sort out the house and renting it to the United States Air Force. So, again very supportive in that time. I went in January and my wife came out the end of March to join me in Nairobi. Both my boys at the time had had places in the RAF as apprentices. One went to Halton as an aircraft apprentice. The other one was due to go to Locking as a radio apprentice. So we left them behind. In Nairobi my wife was very supportive. I had two teams of men. Some up country. And again my wife, very supportive looking after the interest of the families of my senior NCOs and of course she got involved in work on the Mathare Valley which was a very poor area. She worked for a Baptist Mission there. And then she also worked on going upcountry doing work on anti-measles vaccinations. Again, supporting me socially with all my receptions at the British High Commission meeting senior officers, politicians as they all came to see us in the winter months. And also of course she was with me when I had the pleasure, we both had the pleasure of being introduced to Her Majesty the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh and the President of Kenya when the Queen came out to Kenya about ‘87ish I think. My boys then joined the Air Force. One as an aircraft technician working at RAF Marham, Tornados. The other one went through training first at Cosford and then he went on, sorry first at Locking then to Cosford. And then he went aircrew. Sergeant air crew. Air signaller. About 1990 they were both commissioned and went for pilot training. One finished up as a VC10 tanker captain. The other one was flying helicopters in Northern Ireland and around the world in Wessex and Puma and he finished up as a qualified flying instructor. They both then left the RAF at forty and are now flying for Virgin Atlantic on long haul. One on 747s from Gatwick. One from Heathrow on Airbus A340, A330. [pause] Again, my wife has supported me in all my time. We came back from Nairobi. Went to Cottesmore for a couple of years. My next job was London as a staff officer for eight years travelling backwards and forwards. Again, my wife fully supported me. She was working at the time as a, she did her midwifery time at Peterborough and then went on to be, work at Melton Mowbray in the midwifery unit. So we both retired at sixty and had almost fifteen years travelling around the world together in retirement before she passed away last year. Ok.
CB: Very good. We’ll stop there for a bit.
AJ: Yeah.
CB: Because you need a breather.
AJ: Good.
[recording paused]
CB: That’s excellent. So you’ve retired from the RAF and the Civil Service.
AJ: Yes.
CB: So now we’re in Edith Weston talking about the project which is —
AJ: Yes.
CB: To commemorate the seven man crew.
AJ: Yeah.
CB: Of the Lancaster.
AJ: Yes.
CB: That crashed in 1945.
AJ: Yes.
CB: 4th of March 1945.
AJ: Yeah.
CB: Good. Ok. Over to you.
AJ: My first involvement was as chairman of the Parish Council because there was controversy in the village about an eighty year beech tree to which the owners of the property wanted to chop down because large lumps of the tree were falling off. It was a protected tree with a TPO. But half the village were very much against the tree being chopped down because it was the tree that saved the church when a Lancaster bomber in 1945 crashed in the village and had it not hit the tree it would have gone into the church. It hit the tree and swung around and therefore the church was saved. So half the village supported the owners of the house to have the beech tree cut down and half the village were against it being cut down because it was the tree that saved the church.
CB: Right.
AJ: And I as chairman of the Parish Council was caught in the middle. In the end Rutland County Council got involved and their tree surgeon or whatever you call them decided that it was dangerous and therefore had to come down. Because it was under a TPO had the owners chopped the tree down without permission they’d of course have been taken to court. My words at the time in a newspaper article, and this was in August ‘01 when I was on the Parish Council, I’d tried to remain neutral, ‘I’m sad to see it go but if someone had been hurt I could not have lived with it.’ The Parish Council Chairman Alan Jury explained in the local newspaper.” So, that was my first involvement with the Lancaster. My next involvement was I just happened to be in Stamford one day when I saw Flypast Magazine on the magazine rack in October 2009 and I bought the Flypast magazine and I read the article about Chris Brockbank and his father which was fascinating I must admit. And that was my second time sort of associated with it. But I just read the article at the time and Chris’s dad happened to live next door to me in St Marys Close so an interest there. And then nothing really until a couple of years ago when suddenly there was people in the village went up to Waddington. They saw two Lancasters flying together and the Vulcan. And in the pub we got talking and I, I personally never saw them. I saw them, I saw the two Lancasters fly over Rutland Water a few times together and the Vulcan on its own. We were talking in the pub and somebody said, ‘Oh, didn’t a Lancaster crash here in 1945? Shouldn’t we have a plaque?’ And people said, ‘Well, Alan you’re ex-Air Force. Perhaps you could look into it.’ And so that’s when I looked in to it. And another point of interest was a village history book was written by a lady in the village called Liz Tyler and in there she mentions about the crash in March 1945. Just a paragraph about the crash. Also, I noticed in the church on the War Memorial written on the bottom was a small note written by the vicar at the time about the crash in March ’45 to which, thanks to God the church was saved. So, I looked in to the idea. Again, I got hold of, I spoke to Chris Brockbank and got hold of a copy of his article. I also went to the local newspaper to see if there was anything in there but not much at all. The only mention in the local newspaper of that crash was somebody’s hayricks were burned. Nothing about the crew. The fatal injuries for the crew. And so I then spoke to Liz Tyler who had a lot of information about the crash and the, and she kept in touch with relations of some of the UK crew members. Her mother, as an eighteen year old actually had come up to the village and seen the crash in 1945. Her mother, Margaret. That’s before she married George Tyler who was the farmer who actually owns the land on which the Lancaster crashed. So a lot of information there. I then got in contact with the RAF Museum and I must admit it’s one of the few occasions I used my rank to, and I emailed the RAF Museum. They were very good. They sent me back a copy of the crash report for that particular day. I also went on the internet looking at other various sources of information about the Lancaster. Got the information together and I thought well who’s going to pay for a plaque? So, I went to the Parish Council and they were very supportive. In fact they even suggested that there was a plaque — Thurnby and Bushby Parish Council had put a plaque up of a Lancaster that crashed there on the outskirts of a village. That was Lancaster ND 647. They put a Memorial there. That crashed in April 1945. And so I looked online and that gave me an idea for the plaque to perhaps go either in the church or on the wall at Edith Weston. So, from the planning of it having got the information from, and the actual crash report from the RAF Museum who were very helpful and also gave me the crew names as well. I then did some research and I found looking at the Australian Archives were very, very good. They gave not only the names of the Australian air crew involved in the crash but the names of the RAF aircrew involved in the crash. Getting stuff from the UK sources was difficult. But thanks to the Australian Archives on the internet I got a lot of detail. So I put my case together, went to the Parish Council and said, ‘I’d like, I’m suggesting a plaque.’ And the Parish Council said, ‘Yes. Ok. How much is it going to cost?’ I said, ‘Oh, about four or five hundred pounds.’ ‘Ok. We’ll pay for that.’ And so I then proceeded to go ahead for the plaque. And whilst talking to Liz Tyler she said, ‘Oh, I’ll pay for that plaque,’ with the proceeds from her book on the village. She had written as I say, this village history book and she said, ‘Oh, I was looking for somewhere to put the money for a good cause.’ So Liz Tyler who lives in the village and whose family has been here forever said she would pay for it. I then sort of went on the internet and found a company which would make the plaque. We hit a bit of a problem. There was, we had to go to the, the church in Peterborough. To the, now let me get the name of this right [pause] Anyway, there was a committee in Peterborough. The church had to give permission for it to go on the churchyard wall. We thought of one position but it was disagreed. We thought of a few positions but they wouldn’t agree. Now, a very good friend of mine in the village, David Forbes was church warden and he actually dealt with the church,. The Diocese Planning Committee I think it was called. They had a meeting once a month and although sometimes the items on their agenda because it was at the bottom they didn’t get around to it. So it took almost a year to get permission from the Diocese Committee in Peterborough for it to go on the wall. Then suddenly we decide, we found that the original place it was going to go was at a very narrow, the actual place where the aircraft crashed was a very narrow piece of road and we thought well if cars park there or people stop and look at it, it could be a safety hazard. So we then, with the vicar decided it would go on the wall in its present location. Just a few yards from the gate. And it’s a very good prominent position. Now, because of all the time taken for the church to give approval David Forbes and I said, ‘Look, I know the crash was in March but perhaps we can do the dedication in November. On Armistice Day. Remembrance Day.’ I’d actually ordered the plaque, it was paid for, it was in my possession but we didn’t have the permission of the church to put it on the wall. So I spoke to Liz Tyler. She said, ‘Oh, that’s disgusting. That plaque should go on the wall on the anniversary of the crash.’ I said, ‘Well, we haven’t got permission.’ ‘To hell with that. I’m going to speak to the vicar.’ The vicar, John Taylor rang me up and said, ‘Alan, I’ve decided we’re going to have the ceremony on the 3rd March which is the anniversary of the crash. We’ve spoken to Liz Tyler. She’s very upset that we can’t put it up ‘til November. She wants it up. She’s paid for it and she wants it up now.’ So, I said, ‘Oh.’ And he told me, this the beginning of February so I thought oh panic, panic. I need to get appropriate guests to come. So what we decided to do we’d bang some nails between the stones and we’d hang it up temporarily until we get permission to nail it to the wall. Or screw it to the wall. So the ceremony went ahead. I think it was the 3rd of March.
[pause]
CB: Just stop a moment.
AJ: Yes.
[recording paused]
AJ: Sorry. So the Memorial Service was going to be held —
CB: Yeah.
AJ: On the 4th of March. Which was the seventy first —
CB: The crash date.
AJ: Anniversary of the crash.
CB: Seventy first.
AJ: Seventy first anniversary.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: Of the crash on March the 4th 1945.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: So, panic, panic. I then started emailing people. And having worked in the MOD in London and having visited the Australian High Commission many times on a Friday night for a chat and a drink I knew how keen they were to get out of London. So I wrote a letter to the Air Advisor at the Australian High Commission giving all the details of the event and details of the Australian aircrew who died in this crash and we planned on having this ceremony on the 4th of March. And his PA phoned me back and said, excuse me, ‘He’s very keen.’
CB: Right.
AJ: ‘He’s very enthusiastic. He wants to come along.’ So, great. That was number one guest. Once I’d got him I knew that the others would fall in to place. So I then wrote to RAF Wittering and asked for a senior officer to come along, to the Army barracks and also to the local council. I also wrote to the Lord Lieutenant who was very keen. But the key was the Australian Air Advisor, the group captain because if he was coming everyone else was obliged because the RAF and the Army would not entertain an Australian officer being here and not them.
CB: This was Group Captain Nicholas.
AJ: Yes.
CB: Yes.
AJ: Group Captain Nicholas. So that was the first stage was to get, and he was very enthusiastic. I know how keen they are to get out of London and visit the country because I also had an Australian boss whilst working at Swanton Morley and he was very keen on touring Europe every weekend. So, and getting away from Swanton Morley in Norfolk. So I then arranged with the vicar and the various authorities to come to the, to the ceremony which was held on the 4th of March.
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
AJ: So the group captain came up from London with his wife. One thing his PA did ask me was that he would be travelling in civilian clothes and could he use a neighbour’s house to change? And my neighbour next to the church obliged saying he’d be very welcome. So, he came up early and got changed into his uniform in my neighbour’s house. And therefore we then went to the church for all in, all the senior officers were in full uniform, full dress uniform, full medals, appropriate. I also persuaded Reverend Brian Nichols, the late Brian Nichols to come along and be part of the service because he has been chaplain to the RAF at North Luffenham and also he’s, he was chaplain to the Army at St George’s Barracks. And he is also I think chaplain to the RAF Association and places, so again had a military context there [pause] On the design of the plaque some people said, ‘Oh, that’s a bit of a cheap plaque in stainless steel. Why don’t you get a bronze one?’ Which cost a lot more money. But then I spoke to people in the village who said, ‘Ah, if you get something in bronze it will walk. Far better to get a cheapish one in stainless steel and there’s a good chance it will stay there.’ Because several people came up to me and said oh look this is a plaque I saw at so and so in beautifully painted bronze costing a thousand pounds but —
[telephone ringing]
AJ: Excuse me.
[recording paused]
AJ: So there were contrary views on the design and the siting. Some people said it should be in the church but talking to David Forbes, the church warden he said, ‘Oh, the diocese committee would never agree to that. They would take five years to discuss it and they’ll say no.’ So we decided on the church wall. But there was quite some views saying we should put in the church. On the church wall. For safety and things.
CB: Right.
AJ: Now, getting to the audience. Well, I’ve already said I wrote to, oh I must have written about twenty letters by email. Without email it wouldn’t have worked. I didn’t start until the beginning of February inviting people to a ceremony on the 4th of March because it was decided at the short notice to go ahead with the ceremony on the 4th of March. Which, with the benefit of hindsight was right. The vicar was right. Everybody was [laughs] So, it went ahead. And the audience. I wrote an article for the local paper saying it would happen and sort of put it in the village newsletter etcetera that it would happen. I think it was put in the church, the parish magazine as well or the village’s magazine. So it had fairly good publicity. And the ceremony went off very well. We were very fortunate. The weather was good. Everybody turned up on time. The vicar and I, and David Forbes who I must say right from day one when I phoned him up was very enthusiastic about the project. He, although he was ex-Navy and worked in Canada for most of his life he was very keen on World War Two crashes and wrecks. And therefore without David’s enthusiasm in persuading church authorities to be on our side for the plaque it wouldn’t have happened. Now, David when I rang him up I didn’t know which way he would go. But he came back, again a drinking mate from the pub said, ‘I support you a hundred percent. I will look after the church aspects.’ Again, without his support it wouldn’t have happened. He also was involved with arranging the service and the Order of Service for the vicar and myself. We chose the songs and hymns etcetera and prayers and the day went very well. My late wife took some excellent photographs which were published in the local paper with various articles. And I’m pleased to say the plaque is still there and David Forbes tells me that a lot of people come to the village and see the plaque and then go into the church. Also, we’ve had people who had relations at North Luffenham who have come specifically to the church to look at the plaque and to go into the church for a few minutes silence and look at the church. Also, looking through the visitor’s book in the church there are the odd comments about how pleased they are to find the plaque and how we remember those that gave their lives so we can be here today.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Now, we talked about the conscious or unconscious delays, constraints of the church authorities. So you went ahead just on a temporary fixing but how long did it take to actually get the [unclear]?
AJ: Well, what we decided to do was first of all for the ceremony we put two nails between the bricks and hung the plaque up.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: Temporarily. And then we put it in the church notice board. And it must have taken probably three or four months. Perhaps June, July before the church gave permission. And then David Forbes went and drilled the holes in the wall where the plaque was fixed. What we would have done if they’d said no I don’t know. Gone to appeal probably to the Supreme Court [laughs]
CB: Yeah. They probably wouldn’t have noticed would they? So it wouldn’t have mattered actually.
AJ: No. That’s the other thing people said to me, ‘Why bother asking?’
CB: Yes [laughs]
AJ: But David Forbes likes to keep on the good terms with the diocese authorities because on other church matters they could be quite awkward.
CB: Yes.
AJ: And of course the church wants money from them.
CB: Yes.
AJ: On an annual basis.
CB: Yes.
AJ: So —
CB: Right. Ok. Stop there.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
AJ: Yes. In retrospect we have found that I’ve been perhaps going through the village on my scooter and I’ve seen cyclists and walkers stop at the church looking at the plaque. And I’ve explained to them the circumstances. And this is young people in their twenties and thirties out for a day’s cycling around Rutland Water had stopped to look at the plaque and wondered. And I’ve explained the circumstances of the crash and they’ve said, ‘Oh, that’s wonderful. Do you mind if we go inside the church and have a look?’ So it does attract a lot of attention. Again, we’ve had visitors to the church who would admire the plaque when they’ve come to see the church. And also we’ve had people who were perhaps related to some of the aircrew at North Luffenham again who have come to see the plaque. And again, I’ve got this second hand through David Forbes, the church warden. So it is really appreciated and when I, when I go to the village I see young people stopping to look at the plaque it makes me feel, well it was all worthwhile. And that future generations —
CB: Yeah.
AJ: Can remember what happened.
CB: Well. Retrospect is a marvellous view but in practical terms what might you have done in your approach to the church originally?
AJ: I don’t think —
CB: You might have mentioned to them.
AJ: Perhaps I might have mentioned to them that they could have shown, brought more people to, not to worship in the church but certainly to visit the church and make a contribution perhaps, and to enjoy the ambience of the church.
CB: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So, for the learning curve for other people with the plaque.
AJ: With the plaque. Well, first of all I got in touch with this company who said they could make the plaque in, sort of within the week and gave me a quote. But unfortunately, having to wait for the Church’s permission I then had to delay that contract for three or four months until we decided to go ahead with the plaque. But I’m not, I’m not sure how we could have persuaded the Diocese Committee to be any quicker because they obviously have their own agendas and their monthly meetings and with several times being promised it was going to get discussed and then they didn’t get around to it, it was a bit frustrating. So I would suggest if you are going to deal with the church like the churchyard wall you start those negotiations early. And perhaps make the point there could be advantages for the church and that they’ll get more visitors perhaps and of course the church would get publicity on the day.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: And it would be good for the church in the long term.
CB: There’s a curiosity, a curiosity factor —
AJ: Yes.
CB: In these plaques, isn’t there?
AJ: Yes. One other thought was the newspaper. And people have said to me, ‘What’s the significance of the seventy first anniversary?’ And I said, ‘Well, because I picked up the idea up last year and started running with it. Why no one else had decided on the twenty fifth anniversary, fiftieth anniversary or sixtieth anniversary of the crash I don’t know but the reason it happened to be the seventy first was because only a year before, or a year or so before I got the idea and started running with it.’ And I’m rather surprised that Liz Tyler in the village who had loads and loads of paperwork and kept in touch with relatives had perhaps not taken the initiative before but there we are. It is a daunting task and certainly I was in a good position to get things done being ex-RAF, an RAF engineer but at least I was in a good position to get things done. Use my retired RAF rank to get things done and it all went to plan. But that’s why it happened to be the seventy first.
CB: Yeah. But actually, the significance is, was on the seventieth but you couldn’t do it quick enough.
AJ: Well —
CB: Because you —
AJ: The seventieth was only —
CB: Was when you started it.
AJ: When we started it.
CB: That’s what I meant.
AJ: Yes.
CB: Yes. That the notion was there.
AJ: Yes. Yes.
CB: But actually because people don’t need to know quite, the red tape meant you had to do it in the seventieth first.
AJ: Well, no. It just took a year to get things done.
CB: That’s what I mean.
AJ: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Because in practical terms these things can go on for donkey’s years.
AJ: Yes.
CB: So, if you’re doing it in a year —
AJ: But if you’re doing something like this.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: You need to plan, I think at least two or three years in advance.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: If you’re wanting to do it on an anniversary.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: I think that’s one of the lessons I learned. It’s no good starting a year before. Although I got things done if you wanted the anniversary like the fiftieth, sixtieth, seventy fifth at least two or three years ahead to get the finances, permissions. Especially from the church.
CB: Yes. Interestingly —
AJ: Can we stop?
CB: Yes.
[recording paused]
CB: So, what would you say in summary Alan were the most significant points about this arrangement?
AJ: Well, first of all perhaps to pick a suitable anniversary like the fiftieth rather than say the seventy first, and plan ahead. A location. Well, it could be anywhere in the village. At one stage I spoke to the house owners around the crash site so if the church had failed to give permission I could, they were happy for it to be put on the side of their wall. Although they couldn’t guarantee that when the house was sold the new owners, young people, might remove it. So the church was thought to be a good place where it was there for posterity. But the local, the houses surrounding the crash site did agree the plaque could go on the wall of their house or their property.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: If needed. But that wasn’t required. The design of the plaque. It took some thinking through and I spent a lot of time on the internet looking at other plaques. Initially, I was going to put RAF wings and Royal Australian Air Force wings on the plaque. But then looking at other plaques they tend to have the RAF badge and the Royal Australian Air Force badge which is why I chose those. So the design of the plaque I’d seen several on the internet and therefore as I say I decided to go, to go the stainless steel. I spoke to Liz Tyler who was paying for it and she agreed with not much comment. The only comment she made was that one of the birth, one of the birthdays of one of the crew, the Australian crew members was a month after the crash. I said he was twenty five. She insisted he was twenty six. But so what?
CB: So one wants to get the facts right first if possible.
AJ: Yes. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: So that was sorted. But she was very pleased. And the other thing with the plaque which I was very pleased to see was that I went across and showed the plaque to her mother who was ninety. Margaret. Now, Margaret passed away towards the end of last year. So having seen the plaque. As a teenager seen the crash. As a teenager and the aircrew actually in the aircraft. Burned and bolt upright. She was very pleased to see the plaque and handle it before she passed away last year. And the ceremony was. Because she was over ninety as you can imagine.
CB: There was something significant about them being bolt upright.
AJ: Well, because —
CB: As they’re burned in their seats.
AJ: They were burned in their seats.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: Now, one of the discrepancies, sorry to go on a bit was that one of the witnesses and Liz Tyler had it in writing said they saw one of the aircrew sitting on a bale of hay smoking a cigarette after the crash. Now, whether that was the rear gunner I don’t know but looking through the various reports there were discrepancies in some of the names and the spelling and it took quite a lot of work with the RAF museum to find actually who the real crew members were because you don’t want to get the wrong names on the Memorial.
CB: No. Of course, there were eight in the aircraft because it was a, on a training flight.
AJ: It was on a training mission.
CB: So, who was the eighth man? Was he a pilot or a navigator?
AJ: He was a navigator instructor.
CB: Right.
AJ: He was on a navigation training exercise. And I got that from the crash report from the RAF museum. It was on a returning from a navigational training exercise where —
CB: A cross country.
AJ: There was a navigator instructor and a navigator student.
CB: Right.
AJ: And the rest of the crew were standard. But apparently they always flew for training purposes as a complete crew. So I understand.
CB: Yeah. Right. That’s it. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
CB: Let’s just quickly go back because of course I was at the ceremony.
AJ: Yes.
CB: There was some controversy. What was that about?
AJ: It was who should give [pause] David Forbes, the church warden had done his homework and found this Lancaster poem. And the vicar decide it would go in to the service and I thought it was a jolly good idea but then it was thought, ah we need a pilot, preferably an air marshal to give this bit. To give the poem. And I spoke to various people and they were a bit reluctant. Although one person did volunteer his services. I didn’t know him. It was a retired air commodore from the county council said, ‘Oh, I’ll do that.’ And then in the end I did it because it was quite difficult to find someone who was prepared to stand up and read it. In the end I read the poem, as the Lancaster despite just being a lowly engineer [laughs] but I think it went down very well.
CB: Yeah. And what sort of turnout was there?
AJ: The turnout at the church was almost full. As far as I can remember standing at the pulpit or, or the lectern when I gave my poem as far as I could see the church was full.
CB: A sea of faces.
AJ: A sea of faces. Including the extension on the side. The side chapel. So the church was chocka block.
CB: So how many would that be?
AJ: Oh, probably a hundred or so.
CB: A bit more than that.
AJ: Maybe a hundred and fifty. I’m not sure of the capacity of the church.
CB: Yeah.
AJ: But it certainly it was a very good turnout. And since then most villagers have said to me what a wonderful day it was and well done. Thank you and all the rest of it.
CB: Good. Thank you very much. So, Alan Jury, thank you very much for a most interesting commentary.
AJ: Ok.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Alan Jury
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AJuryAR171222
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Pending review
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00:48:31 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Second generation
Description
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Alan Jury began his career with the RAF as an engineering apprentice at RAF Halton. When he retired from the RAF he joined the Parish Council at his local village and it came to his information that a Lancaster had crashed in the village in March 1945. After a conversation with friends it was decided that there should be a commemorative plaque to this event in the village. He set about establishing this and organising the ceremony at its unveiling.
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Kenya
England--Norfolk
England--Rutland
Kenya--Nairobi
Temporal Coverage
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1945-03-04
crash
fitter airframe
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
memorial
RAF Halton
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Swanton Morley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/899/11139/AJacksonDM171130.2.mp3
1afde4d3c12a3c8d0bc1a7b452422441
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Jackson, Norman
N Jackson
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with David Jackson about his father Norman Jackson VC (1919 - 1994), his service record and two photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Jackson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jackson, N
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: [unclear] [laughs] My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 30th of November 19, 2017 and we are in Kingswood in Surrey talking to David Jackson whose father was Norman Jackson VC and we are going to start off with earliest recollections of father’s life. So, what were the first [unclear] there?
DJ: Oh, good afternoon Chris. My father was born in Ealing in London on the 8th of April 1919. He was born to a single mother who put my father up for adoption. My father was adopted by a Mr and Mrs Gunter who lived in Twickenham. They were a professional family as far as I know. They certainly had a lovely house in Camac Road, Twickenham, they also adopted, just after dad another lad by the name of Geoffrey, Geoffrey Hartley. My father and Geoffrey grew up together, very close as half-brothers, my father was educated in Twickenham at Archdeacon Cambridge School, he stayed there until the age of sixteen where after gaining his school certificate joined an engineering company, he always had an interest in engineering. At the start of the Second World War in September 1939 my father decided that he wanted to volunteer, join the military services so he first he tried to join the Royal Navy but was told they weren’t actually recruiting at that time and so thought he would try the Royal Air Force where he was accepted. He was sent to RAF Halton where he took a further apprenticeship in engineering on airframes etcetera, from there once qualified, he joined 95 Squadron which was Sunderland flying boats, as a fitter he was sent to Africa, North East Africa which was Freetown where he served his time on Sunderland flying boats, he returned in 1942, in summer of ’42 where his intention was to join Bomber Command as a flight engineer, prior to that in 1939 he’d actually met my mother, Alma Lilian, they became engaged in 1940 when my father was then sent to North Africa and my, they didn’t see each other for two years, on my father’s return they organised their wedding which was on Boxing Day in 1942. ’43 my father started his training as an engineer on Bomber Command, joined his first squadron later that summer in ’43 which is 106 Squadron at that time based at Syerston in Lincolnshire soon to be sent to RAF Metheringham where the squadron was then based, flew several missions including ten to Berlin, several incidents during his tour of operations with Bomber Command, got shot up, engines out of action, very heavy landings with Fred Mifflin the pilot who they considered taking off flying actually and retraining because he couldn’t land the Lancaster without bouncing it, one day that led in a crosswind situation where they switched runways on a heavy crosswind and my father, the aircraft crashed with a heavy landing losing his undercarriage, my father suffered a broken leg at that time but even with a broken leg managed to get Fred Mifflin, he was in a bit of a, had a few problems inside the cockpit and managed to drag him out but was patched up and continued flying with a broken leg for further six weeks. Thirty missions were completed because my father actually had volunteered with another crew, his flight engineer wasn’t able to go one night, father stood in, so he reached his thirty missions’ quota before the rest of the crew. On the night of the 27th of April 1944, target designated was Schweinfurt in Germany, father volunteered to go along with the rest of the crew to see them through, this would be his thirty first mission, they took off on time, prior to the take-off my father had received a telegram to say that his first child, my oldest brother Brian had been born, he went along on the mission, they hit a head wind which slowed them up and when they arrived over the target they seemed to be alone but they went ahead, bombed, and by turning out and all of a sudden Sandy Sandelands the wireless operator spoke to Fred Mifflin the pilot over the intercom telling him he had a blip on his fishpond screen, his radar screen, he felt that blip could be a night fighter, they all braced themselves and waited, he then came back, Sandy Sanderson said it’s closer, it’s fast, it’s definitely a night fighter and then before they knew it the aircraft was being racked with cannon fire, my father was thrown to the ground, he was injured at that time with shell splinters, on recovering his position in the cockpit he noticed that the starboard wing had a fire just inside the engine area, he tried to feather the engine which he did, he feathered it, but the fire was still raging out there because it was basically in the wing where the fuel tank was. He decided at that time that he could deal with it, he got the, asked the permission of Fred the pilot, he felt he could deal, so he said, he could actually climb out on the wing with a fire extinguisher with the aid of the crew if he jettison his parachute, Fred Mifflin looked at him incredulously but said, ok, go ahead, so Dad took the cockpit axe which had an ice pick end on it, he took a fire extinguisher from inside the cockpit which he placed inside his tunic, his flying tunic, the bomb aimer and the navigator stood by as Dad climbed onto the navigator’s table and jettisoned the hatch above there which is just behind the pilot’s seat, he then deployed his parachute so that navigator and bomb aimer could hold onto the rigging lines, whilst had sorted the lines out Dad then climbed through the hatch and into the two hundred mile and hour slipstream, it was icy cold, he said he always remembered how cold it was, he inched his way out keeping close to the fuselage, trying not to have the slipstream affect him any more than it would, he used the ice pick on the axe to fire into the side of the fuselage to give him some purchase and then pulled himself down towards the wing root which was below him and toward the aerial intake at the front of the wing where he managed to get his left hand in to hold on, he then removed the fire extinguisher from his flying jacket and started dealing with, knocked the end of the fire extinguisher off on the front of the wing, the extinguisher started and he started to deal with the fire, he felt he was doing ok and the fire started to die down, at that point the wing lifted below him and the aircraft started to bank to the left. He was then, he then realised that the fighter must have found them again, the fighter came in, racked the aircraft again with machine gun and cannon fire, my father was hit several times with shell splinter and bullets, the wing blew up around him, engulfing him in flames, the slipstream from the aircraft as it slipped to the port side and down, lifted my father off the wing and he was thrown backwards, he came to an abrupt halt just behind the rear of the aircraft because he was still attached to the cockpit via his rigging lines and parachute, as he was being dragged down through the air, those inside the cockpit thought Dad had been killed but thought they’d get the parachute out anyway, they scrambled as best they could to get the shoot out as it been ripped, as it went through the hatch above the navigators table, it also suffered damage through the fire, my father then left the aircraft as the parachute went out through the hatch, he descended to ground quite rapidly, hit the ground very, very heavily, smashed both ankles, he laid there in a pitiful state, ankles smashed, his hands and face were severely burned, his right eye was completely closed, he also had several shell and shrapnel wounds in his body, he lay there until first light, he then crawled on elbows and knees through the forest and came across a small cottage, he approached the cottage and with his elbow knocked on the door, a window opened above him and a male voice shouted, was ist da? My father said, RAF. The voice from the window upstairs once again said, was ist da? My father cleared his voice as best he could and said in a louder voice, RAF. The voice from above shouted, Terror Flieger! Churchill gangster! And the window closed. Dad then heard the window opening and expected to be kicked and punched but there were a couple of girls inside, who took father in and laid him on a settee and started attending to him, their father, who was the person in the window upstairs, disappeared through the door, he returned a little while later with a policeman and a chap who Dad thought must have been Gestapo was in plain clothes, they then took Dad off of the settee and my father, supported by the policeman was made to march to the local police station. A the police station he was placed into a [unclear], he was in wheels through the streets to the local hospital, en route he suffered verbal abuse and even some stones but he always said he understood this, at the hospital he was treated very well, he stayed in the hospital for several months, he was then transferred to a prisoner of war camp where he served out his time, he escaped once, he tried to, was recaptured, at the end of the war he was repatriated along with the other, the rest, the surviving members of the crew. The surviving members of the crew told my father’s story, my father got a call from a WAAF officer he said who asked if that was warrant officer Norman Cyril Jackson, he said, yes, it was, and she said, I’m just calling you to let you know you’ve been awarded the Victoria Cross. My father’s words were, what the bloody hell for?
CB: We’ll pause there for a moment. That’s. Now in terms of picking up a bit more of detail on this, they got hit and hit badly twice by the fighter or fighters but in general in the dark you can’t see anything that’s going on but you can be seen so what did he feel about flying in these sorties?
DJ: My father, I can remember my father saying that on every single mission they flew which was obviously at night, very dark unless you had a full moon which sometimes light you up, you were, they used to have the four Merlin engines on the Lancaster, and what was a concern to them all the time was the exhaust of the Merlin engine which had basically bright flames coming out of it and that always made the Lancaster visible, they felt from inside the cockpit to anything that was out there but they also had pleasure in seeing that coming out because they knew the engines were still running, so it was basically almost a double edged sword, one you needed to see the exhaust as Dad said to make sure they are all running properly but the other you knew you were a possible target to anyone that was out there that you couldn’t see but they could see you.
CB: And in his training going back a bit he was originally trained as a ground engineer
DJ: Correct, yes.
CB: At what stage and how did he do it, did he get into flying? [unclear]
DJ: This would have happened in Africa, in Freetown when he was with 95 Squadron the Sunderland flying boats, he decided out there that he actually wanted to be part of the aircrew and as a qualified engineer he would be useful to Bomber Command and he knew the new four engine bombers were coming onto stream with the Lancaster and felt that was a position for him and so suitably applied and was accepted
CB: So what do you know about the training he had to do in preparation for getting into the, into Bomber Command?
DJ: Well, I’m reading now, this is the Air VCs Chaz Bowyer, book called For Valour, now, this actually says that my father enlisted in the 20th of October 1939 after various training courses at Halton and Hednesford he became classified as a fitter 11E engines, a group one tradesman posted overseas, his first unit was 95 Squadron to which he reported on the 2nd of January 1941, a Short Sunderland flying boat squadron based on the West African coast near Freetown following, for the following eighteen months Jackson continued to serve as a engine fitter on flying boats Marine Craft but the opportunity to remuster to flying duties as a flight engineer attracted him and he accordingly applied for training, as a result he returned to England in September 1942 and after six months at 27 OTU, Operational Training Unit moved to RAF St Athan at the end of March 1943 to complete instruction. Finally, with promotion to sergeant he was mustered, or remustered, I apologize, as a flight engineer on the 14th of June and posted to number 1645 Heavy Conversion Unit on the 28th of July he joined his first squadron 106 based at Syerston and flying Avro Lancasters.
CB: Right, that sets the scene very well. Did he talk about what the training was like?
DJ: No,
CB: And
DJ: Only, the only thing Dad ever used to mention about training was that the RAF lost more aircrew training than they did on missions themselves, on sorties, he said the loss rate on training was quite high, that’s what I can remember him saying about training
CB: Certainly, there was quite a loss. So, with his training he didn’t start flying until he got to the operational training unit is what you’re saying, yeah, because he’s been on the ground before.
DJ: Well, again I’m reading from Chaz Bowyer’s book here, which has quite a lot of detail, so from September 1942, I think that’s when he started, he applied and after six months at 27 Operational Training Unit moved to RAF St Athan and that was the end of March when he, he may have started his flying training then, whether there was any prior to that at the 27 Operational Training Unit I don’t know.
CB: Ok.
DJ: I don’t know, I think Dad did actually, I can remember Dad talking about RAF Elstos which was a small twine engined aeroplane he used to fly, so at that point being
CB: Ansons,
DJ: Ansons, sorry, the Anson, my apology,
CB: Yes, yeah
DJ: The Anson aircraft, so he did some time on that
CB: Right
DJ: Now I presume that was not at the operational, that may have been at the Operational Training Unit rather than the Heavy Conversion Unit, so I suspected he started before that
CB: The Heavy Conversion Unit would have been the four engine
DJ: The four engine, absolutely, yeah
CB: One way or another. Ok, good, and because he talked to you about a number of things, what did he say about when he got to flying, how he felt about flying?
DJ: He didn’t actually like it that much, I mean, bear in mind, Dad never used to speak, talk about it really at all, it used to be people asking him questions and we as children would be there and I asked, you know, in my father’s later life used to talk Dad about it but he was not very happy with talking about the war, he felt everybody should move on. What was the question, sorry?
CB: The question was how he felt about flying.
DJ: Flying itself he never really enjoyed it, it was just something that had to be done and even though my father wasn’t a particularly religious man, he always said that nobody prayed harder than him before a mission, cause he knew what to expect.
CB: That’s an interesting point because people did different actions before going on a mission, on operation, what did he do? Did he have a mascot, or did he do something before getting in the [unclear]?
DJ: Father never had a mascot as far as I know, he just looked at it as a job that needed to be done and
CB: Did he go through a ritual before getting in the aircraft, do you know?
DJ: No, not that I know of, no.
CB: No.
DJ: He certainly would have spoken of it.
CB: And we are talking about here when he got to the Heavy Conversion Unit it’s now a bomber crew of seven, how did that crew get gelled together?
DJ: As far as I know, once they’d actually formed up as a crew they gelled very well, they, my father always said that they were like a band of brothers, they were very close and that probably, well, I’m sure that would have been the reason why my father decided to fly on the final mission to see them through, their thirtieth, my father’s thirty first, they were very close, socialised together
CB: You talked about him being badly injured when he landed, cause he landed in a different position after he left the aircraft
DJ: Yes
CB: Yeah
DJ: To the rest of the crew
CB: They got out later presumably
DJ: Yes
CB: Were they all in the same prison camp or different ones?
DJ: No, I think that I’m not absolutely sure of, I don’t know, they may have been in the same prison camp [unclear] record and I did not at some stage which Stalag Luft my father was in but I can’t recall it at the moment
CB: Yeah. But did they get together after the war?
DJ: I don’t know much about that actually, I do know that I met two, as a young lad, schoolboy, I met the wireless operator Sandy Sandelands who came to our house in Hampton Hill, Middlesex. I also met the navigator, Frank Higgins, I met him as well, he used to tell about, I can remember them saying that my father citation was always wrong but, you know, they said they just didn’t listen to us because you know, because my father certaition states that on leaving the aircraft my father slipped and then ended up on the wing involved in the fire, well, if you climb out on top of the fuselage on an aircraft travelling at two hundred miles an hour and you’d slip, you don’t go down, you go backwards and this is what they used to say to me and they said, we were looking at your father on the wing and thinking we didn’t actually want him to go out there, we’d all rather just bailed out and that was it, but certainly when the fighter attacked the second time they thought that was it, he shouldn’t have gone out there cause he had now gone, that’s what they thought but those are the two that I’ve met and the only other person I can really remember, which I’d met later many times was Leonard Cheshire at various functions at Buckingham Palace or [unclear] for the Victoria Cross holders
CB: Yes
DJ: But they are the two members of the crew that I have met
CB: And on that topic Leonard Cheshire and your father received the Victoria Cross on the same day, so what happened there?
DJ: The, it was October 1945, as I say, following my father getting that phone call from a female officer in the Royal Air Force informing him he was to be awarded the Victoria Cross, the investiture took place on October 1945, on that day which my mother and father attended was Leonard Cheshire as well, officer commanding 617 Squadron at that time, he was to be awarded the Victoria Cross as well at the investiture in front of the king they were informed about the protocol of the event, the Victoria Cross would always be called first, amongst, cause there were other people there receiving other awards, the Victoria Cross, the people to be invested with the Victoria Cross would be called first, Leonard Cheshire as a group captain, as I believe his rank was at that time, would be called up first, Leonard Cheshire stopped speaking to me at that time, he said, absolutely not, I cannot go first, Norman Jackson in Leonard’s words stuck out his neck much more than I ever did, he should get the Victoria Cross first, I feel humble by being in the presence of this man which is what Lenny told me many times every time I saw him but he, Leonard Cheshire was told that because of the protocol of the day that couldn’t happen and the king would receive him first followed by my father so that’s what happened on that day, Leonard Cheshire went first followed by my father who received the Victoria Cross
CB: And how did they continue their association after the war, was it to do with the?
DJ: I think that after the war of course, the war in Europe had finished, it hadn’t finished in the Far East, my father was being crewed up to continue flying in the Far East but then obviously with the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the war in the Far East ended and that was that but on the aircraft that dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki the RAF observer was Leonard Cheshire and it had such an effect on him psychologically that he then went into an infirmary to for, I’m not sure how long it was for but he disappeared really from public life at that time, so my father never saw him until probably in the 1950s at various Royal Air Force functions where the Victoria Cross holders would be invited and I think that’s when Leonard started to see my father again but there was no real friendship between them, it was just really the only association was that they’d both been awarded the Victoria Cross, my father did know of Leonard Cheshire prior to the investiture of Buckingham Palace because of his work with 617 Squadron as most people in the Royal Air Force would had done. He was a great man but never really continued to associate afterwards other than at functions, Royal Air Force functions or Victoria Cross and George Cross holders functions, that was it. Which is where I met Leonard quite a number of times.
CB: You talked about your father crewing up for the Far East, that was called Tiger Force after what squadron was he supposed to be going to
DJ: Ok, I don’t know Chris, it was just that me Dad said he was, cause I asked that question did he see Leonard afterwards,
CB: Yes, indeed.
DJ: But that was October 1945 and it was really at the end
CB: Sure
DJ: So prior to that Dad was, you know, he came back, he was still in the Royal Air Force, he was still in the Royal Air Force until ‘46
CB: We’ll get that from his service record, but what did he or how long did he stay in the RAF your father?
DJ: From ’39, I mean, I’ve already showed you the photographs
CB: Of his demob.
DJ: Which is 1946 with Roy Chadwick at the presentation of the silver Lancaster bomber to my father and my father’s in uniform there so I’m presuming he was still in the Royal Air Force at that time, awaiting demobilisation I presume, yeah, so, the exact date I don’t know.
CB: They tended to, as I understand it, they tended to demobilise the people who’d been in longest earliest.
DJ: Well, my father joined in ’39 so he would have been long so but what date he got his demob I don’t know.
CB: Right.
DJ: Other than certainly in that photograph dated in, which, March wasn’t it? 1946 with Roy Chadwick my father still in uniform there, so.
CB: Can we just go fast backwards now, your father is on the aircraft, he is hit by cannon fire on the second attack by a fighter and he falls with his parachute in fire is what you were saying. He was badly burned
DJ: I don’t know if it was on fire or just smouldering, yeah, the rigging lines would have been dragging back
CB: But, he was dropping with that
DJ: At an alarming rate
CB: At an alarming rate and but he is burnt
DJ: Yes, very badly
CB: So, what do you know about how the German doctors dealt with his injuries?
DJ: Well, my father always said that they treated him very, very well, there is a report that I found out about twelve years ago, fourteen years ago by Spink’s in London doing some fact finding on my father, the hospital records are still there in Germany and when dealing with my father’s wounds, they actually ran out of saline and had to send out for more, that’s what they told me from the records they saw cause his wounds were so severe, so, that’s what I know, I mean, he said they treated him very well, very, very well
CB: So how long, remind me, how long was he in hospital?
DJ: The exact time I don’t know I believe, according to again if I may refer to Chaz Bowyer’s book For Valour The Air VCs, it states in here and I presume that some research was done for this, that my father was actually, if I can find the paragraph, at daybreak, my father is in a pitiful condition [unclear] he’s in German for the next ten months, Jackson [unclear] recuperated in a German hospital, though his burned hands never fully recovered so according to Chaz Bowyer ten months which would have put him from April through to early ‘45 where he was then sent to the prisoner of war camp
CB: And his wounds of course never fully recovered
DJ: The [unclear]
CB: [unclear] but what was the state of his hands later?
DJ: My father’s hands were noticeable that there was something different about them, my father had a really, if you looked at my father’s arms, they stopped obviously at the wrist, in he had a ring around each wrist and then the colour changed, my father’s hands were almost translucent where all the skin and flesh had been burnt through and then healed over the years. It never really bothered him as far as enabling him to do whatever he wanted to do, so there was no lasting effect from it other than the look of them really. He never suffered any lasting effects from those burns they healed and that was it but my father’s hands reached a stage where they wouldn’t heal any more so they looked like they looked on my father’s body which when we used to if we went to the beach or whatever my father had a pair of shorts on it was quite obvious with the number of scars on my father’s back and on the back of his legs that some sort of injuries had been sustained during his war years, certainly is quite a few scars there and as far as I believe there were seventeen different [unclear] hospital records from shell and shrapnel in my father’s body, some of those would have been incurred first attack and the rest on the second attack when he was on the way
CB: From your recollection what did they look like? Were some of them [unclear], were some them long and [unclear]?
DJ: Yeah, they were white and diamond shaped, I remember there were a couple that were sort of maybe half an inch long, straight, there were some that were diamond shaped and some that were round with almost an indentation to them so the skin had almost, was concave in my father’s back
CB: Was it a subject to conversation between
DJ: Never had, Dad never, all Dad used to say was, well, I’ve still got some shrapnel in my head, he used to feel round the back, [unclear] you could feel it there and used to feel the back of Dad’s head you could feel something sharp inside the skin so that’s the only thing he used to say when you tried to say, Dad, all those scars on your back but he wasn’t, he never used to speak about it much at all, it was, we learned about it from people coming to the house all the time, people would want interviews with Dad, the newspapers etcetera etcetera radio stations and so we learned about it from there it wasn’t something that Dad actually really spoke about but as we got older we spoke to Dad about it and
CB: And how did he feel about being questioned
DJ: Didn’t like it,
CB: By his family?
DJ: Oh, by his family? Well, he never really used to, Dad loved his family, he would never really be angry with us, he would talk but he never really opened up completely, he was just saying that that was then it was a very bad time, didn’t enjoy it very much, glad to move on and my father, we used to, I used to go to school with my father’s medals, they never meant much to Dad at all, he would let us take them to school in our pocket and of course teachers would want to see them and other people want to see them, he would go to Royal Air Force functions at various places, he would never ever put his medals on until he was inside the building and he would take them off before he left the building, he wouldn’t put them on because he felt that it wasn’t fair on all the other aircrew who were walking around who had their medals on, he felt it was almost ill deserved. I can remember one incident where my father had a function to go to and normally his medals would be in his desk drawer where he’d throw them he put them in there and just leave the drawer and that was it and he couldn’t find his medals anywhere and we were hunting, the whole family were hunting and we couldn’t find the medals anywhere and then obviously you start to backtrack the last time you had them, you know, he was at this function a few months before and what suit were you wearing and to that suit but the suit had been to the drycleaners in which was the [unclear] dry cleaners I can remember that in Twickenham and suddenly we thought maybe they were in Dad’s pocket when they went to the drycleaners so we phoned up the drycleaners and he said, yeah, we got a set of medals here, they were in some suit somewhere and we put them in the drawer and it was my father’s medals including the Victoria Cross that had just thrown in the drawer at the dry cleaners [laughs] so Dad managed to recover them ready for the next function. But he never really gave them any thought, he just put them in the pocket and that was it, that’s what Dad was like.
CB: Right, we’ll just stop for a minute. Going back to the medical issues and the hospital experience, in Britain McIndoe was the man who was best known for his plastic surgery but there other people doing it, what did Dad think about the work done by the doctor’s there? Were the plastic surgeons identified in any way or?
DJ: No, no one in particular, he said that he was very, very well looked after, he did speak about a Canadian doctor who would work in the hospital there which always seemed a bit odd to me that you would have a Canadian doctor working in a German hospital but whether that was, he was brought in for a particular reason or not, I don’t know, Dad never really spoke about it more than that other than say he was very, very well looked after, he was in a pretty pitiful state, he must have been but obviously a very strong will and managed to recover
CB: Any idea of the number of operations they had to perform on him?
DJ: No, no, none whatsoever, I don’t know [unclear]
CB: The hospital itself where do you think that was?
DJ: I would say, well the target that night was Schweinfurt which it I believe quite deep in Germany so I presume that as they were shot down over the target or just after the target, bombing the target it must have been within that vicinity, as much as, that would be a guess obviously.
CB: When you said that Spink’s did an awful lot of research on it
DJ: At the auction of my father’s medals which was done by Spink’s in London in 2004 following the loss of my mother and the subsequent dealing with the estate which included my father’s decorations, they did quite a lot of research and supplied me with quite a lot of information including all of my father’s mission records which I have and gave me the information about the hospital that they must have got, whether they got that from the hospital themselves or from somewhere else I don’t know, they gave me the information about the hospital running out of saline and so but the Canadian doctor bit my father, I can remember my father talking about that and [unclear]
CB: [unclear]
DJ: I presume so, yes, yeah, however they used to treat them in those days.
CB: A bit largely experimental I imagine.
DJ: I [unclear], I mean, I do sometimes think my father must have been in so much pain because if you have very deep burns and they are exposed to the air is very painful. And at the time my father hit the ground, his gloves must have been completely burnt off, completely burnt through so he must have been exposed to the air, but maybe with his smashed ankles, only being able to walk on elbows and knees, badly burnt face as well, one eye closed, there was so much pain elsewhere that it sort of numbed the effect of the hands, I don’t know. And it was pretty cold as well if I understand it was April or so I think it must have been pretty cold out there so that may have helped as well, the cold temperature.
CB: So, he was clearly damaged shall we say in various ways, what happened to his eye? Did that recover or what was wrong with it?
DJ: Yeah, I think he just got a bad bash on it or something, I don’t think there was any shrapnel damage to it at all, he, it was just happened in the incident probably when he left the aircraft he hit something and bashed his eye, I presume, I don’t know, Dad never spoke about it but his right eye was completely closed, I mean, Chaz Bowyer mentions that in the book here when he hit the ground so I think that would have just healed and opened up as normal
CB: These sorts of injuries can stay with people for the rest of their lives and you talked about the fact that his head had some shrapnel in it
DJ: Yes
CB: What about his health of in later years? Was his experience in the war in any way a disadvantage to him from a health point of view later?
DJ: No, I don’t believe, if it was I don’t think my father would have said so and he was a man that, he didn’t really speak about the war, he never actually said the war had any effect on him at all, physically or mentally, it was a time when they just did their duty, he spoke a lot about the other aircrew, how wonderful they were, and with the fact that there was no memorial to these guys, that bothered my father a lot over the years, a lot and but as far as the war affecting him, no, he never ever said that it damaged him in any way, in fact I think he felt himself quite lucky that he survived and went on to have seven children, extremely lucky, he often said that he should have died at the age of twenty five [unclear] man
CB: Where do you come in the ranking of children?
DJ: I am number five, born in 1953, so, four were born between ’44, which is my brother, my eldest brother Brian was born on the night my father was shot down and then we have Pauline, Brenda, Peter and then myself and I was followed by Ian and Shirley Anne a bit later.
CB: When were they born?
DJ: Ian was born 1955 and Shirley was, came along a little bit later in 1961 so there is a bit of a gap there.
CB: So, what sort of house did you have to accommodate all these members?
DJ: Yeah, a big one [laughs], My father had a, he built it himself actually with another chap, he bought some land in Hampton Hill, Burtons Road, Hampton Hill in Middlesex off of a chap had a big house in Uxbridge Road he came down to Burtons Road, so he bought this large, large piece of land and on there he built a bungalow, a four bedroom bungalow which had quite a large front, [unclear] it was a very large bungalow and that’s where we all were brought up
CB: Had bunk beds, did you?
DJ: Yes, yeah, I mean, when we were younger certainly and we were all seven at home, yeah
CB: Was there quite a well regimented system operating for use of the bathroom?
DJ: Probably, I don’t remember it being any problem, I know that we used to have a separate shower in the bathroom so we used to have showers all the time, bath night was generally on a Sunday or something where three or four of us boys used to get in together, I can remember that, certainly three of us, the younger ones used to get in together, the girls used to get in together, it was no issue at all, I mean, I was amazed that my mother who cooked three meals a day for us all, breakfast, lunch and dinner, would come up with so much variety for us all, I can always remember thinking where, my mother must be wonderful to come up with all these different choices all the time but it’s obviously I mean the house was full all the time, there was always things going on so we shared you had three of us in one bedroom when we were growing up, three of the boys, my oldest brother Brian had his own room, you had two girls with another bedroom and then when Shirley came along, a bit later, Pauline was getting married and so leaving the house and so Shirley could take her place [unclear] in the bedroom, Brian at that time had already gone, he’d been married and moved on so, it sort of, it worked out well at the end
CB: What was your father’s occupation after the war?
DJ: My father joined JBR Brandy as a salesman, that’s what he wanted to do, travel, he wanted to travel, he couldn’t settle down any more and his hands were such that he couldn’t go back really to engineering as such, he joined JBR Brandy, he was then with them for a while and then he was headhunted I suppose you could say by the distillers company [unclear] John Hague who wanted him to join them as their troubleshooting travelling salesman so to speak whereas they had accounts that needed building up they would send in, were sending in Norman Jackson VC and that carried some weight in those days. And suddenly people would sit up and listen and that’s what they used, you know, they, he was quite well thought of in the company for doing that, so, that’s what he did, he worked for John Hague was he, for many years. Up until retirement and he retired at the age of fifty-three.
CB: Oh, did he? What made him retire so soon?
DJ: My mother has suffered some mental health, she had suffered a stroke at that time but recovered from it but subsequently had a stroke later in life that put her into a wheelchair unfortunately but that was in, my mother was then sixty and lived to the age of eighty two with that
CB: [unclear]
DJ: Yeah, never complained about it, just got on with it
CB: This was the quality of scotch, was it?
DJ: Probably was, my mother never drunk [laughs], she would have a gin at Christmas with a tonic and that was it
CB: It was just the fumes from the open bottle
DJ: Yeah, maybe, my father used to, he’d drink, I think in those days it must have been different because every meeting my father used to have they’d drink whisky, they would go to a meeting and they’d have whisky, and then they’d drive home afterwards you know and my father used to come home, he’s been stopped by the police before in the old days driving home or he’d drive home with one eye closed looking at the centre line in the road because you know he’d been working and have a few whiskeys and the police would stop him and it would be local police and they’d realised who it was and they’d just take him home, knock on the door with Dad, one of them driving Dad’s car and the other one in the police car with Dad in the police car and say, oh, we have Norman Jackson here and delivering him to our house [laughs]. Happened on a few occasions.
CB: And what age was he when he died?
DJ: My father would have been, it was one month to the day before his seventy-fifth birthday, I’m sorry, one month to the day before they day he got shot down, my apologies, he died on March the 27th which was four weeks prior to the day when he took off, which was April 27 1944 so it was a couple of weeks before his 75th birthday.
CB: Now we touched earlier on the delicate question really of what happened to his medals, so
DJ: Yeah, not that delicate at all
CB: Ok, so, mother died,
DJ: Yeah
CB: Your mother died
DJ: Yeah.
CB: Was that someway the prompt on of dealing with the medical, medals,
DJ: Yes
CB: What happened exactly?
DJ: What happened was we contacted the RAF Museum in Hendon which we felt would’ve been where my father would’ve wanted them to go to, so we contacted the museum, not Douglas actually, we weren’t dealing with Douglas at that time, Douglas Radcliffe at Bomber Command, we were dealing with the curator of the museum and we said that we’d like my father’s medals to go there and he was very happy to receive them and letters were flying backwards and forwards between him and then suddenly my mother’s lawyer, I was an executive of my mother’s will as was my sister Shirley, the lawyer contacted us and said according to your mother’s will there is no stipulation about your father’s medals other than, as this is written in, to be kept within the family or if not part of the estate, he said, this is where we have an issue, you cannot keep a single item within a family, it has to be considered as part of the estate, this is what he said, so he said, well, if we all agree to donate it, he said, well, the problem with that in law there is no precedent for that, you, I can only tell you what the law is, he said, now, if you all agree we can possibly do something. My oldest brother Brian who at that time, at that time felt that they shouldn’t be donated to the museum, that was where the issue was, the lawyer acting for my mother then said, well, they have to be considered as part of the estate, so we said, well, what does that mean? He said, well, they have to be sold, he said, and if they have to be sold you can sell them on a private auction where nobody knows about it but the problem with that is legally if the maximum amount of money isn’t realised for any asset of the estate, the executives of that will can be held responsible, this is he’s just saying what the law is, he says, my advice to you would be to go to a public auction, I said, we don’t really want to do that but that was the road we went down so we contacted, well he did, Spink’s, the only reason we knew about Spink’s because that’s where my mother, my father’s medals used to go for maintenance and that sort of thing and they used to do the you know dressing of them and [unclear], so he contacted Spink’s who then contacted us and we had to go and see them and have this, you know, this meeting and everything else and then we had the auction, the media found out about it as we knew they would but a lot more, there was a lot more interest than we really anticipated and including us on the BBC news asked me to do a bit for them and they interviewed me at the RAF museum there talking about it, my wishes which just they would go to the museum for ten pounds or something you know and we donate that to charity or whatever, to which the lawyer said [unclear] you can’t do that, anyway there we are, day of the auction, all of the family really buried their head in the sand, they didn’t want to know, I was driving along the motorway somewhere listening to the radio and the news came on and it came on that the Victoria Cross awarded to airman Norman Cyril Jackson had sold, had made a world record of two hundred and thirty six thousand pounds at Spink’s in London, I felt, it was an awful feeling, it really was and then I got a call from various newspapers asking which I there felt, thought was quite personal actually, what are you gonna do with the money? And I just said, I don’t want the money, don’t want anything to do with it, don’t want to touch it, and then the guy from the Telegraph phoned and I spoke to him and he said, you sound quite angry, I said, well, only the fact that this didn’t need to happen in my view and he said, well, what do you feel about it? And then the next day he printed what I was saying that it bothered me that this, it had been sold amongst much acrimony and this sort of things and [coughs] it was not an easy time, the money itself was, sat at Spink’s for a while [coughs], they then forded it on to any lawyers dealing with the estate and it sat there until we were told that it had to be divided up amongst the people who were named within the will, which were the family, I personally refused to have any of it, with prior to that, Penny and I had lost our daughter unfortunately at a young age and we decided that what we’d like to do was have a bronze plaque made because the Victoria Cross is bronze from a cannon that was captured during the Crimean War, a Russian cannon, even though, you know, I think since they decided maybe it was a Chinese cannon that was captured by the Russians which was then captured by the British but we thought it’s bronze so we’d like to have a plaque made in bronze for Lilly our daughter so we got a quota back then of a thousand pounds and we took a thousand pounds of that money to make the plaque and the rest left with the rest of the family who wanted to take it and so that’s what happened to the proceeds of the sale of my father’s medals. At the time I was a bit angry because I felt they should be in a museum in the public domain, following the sale it became known that Lord Ashcroft had purchased my father’s Victoria Cross and he actually wrote it was one of his favourites which I thought was quite nice but I was still angry because I felt it should be in a public domain, I was told at that time by Didy Grahame who was at the or ran really the Victoria Cross and George Cross Association at the Home Office that don’t be too bothered because eventually they will end up in the public domain, Lord Ashcroft has stated that to me, that’s what Didy said and now of course Lord Ashcroft has been involved in the creation of the Victoria Cross room at the Imperial War Museum in London which is where my father’s medals were on show with the story so that is wonderful and I give my full thanks to Lord Ashcroft for that, it’s wonderful, it’s all ended up, you know, ok in the end and they are where they should be in the public domain and with my father’s story which is good
CB: And how did the rest of your siblings feel about
DJ: Awful, even to this day, really Brian was held responsible in some ways for what happened and that was tough for the family to take really because of dealing with the media and in some way trying to keep from the media without lying about what was happening and the reasons for it, what would’ve been nice if the lawyers just said, ok, a majority decision here, that’s what’s gonna happen but Brian felt that they shouldn’t be going to the museum, he’s entitled to his opinion but it did affect family, the family bond for many years to come, it did
CB: It sounds as though you found yourself in the front line of this but what about Shirley who was the other executive, why did she
DJ: Shirley to this day doesn’t forgive at all, not at all, Shirley, I do, I live and let live, I move on, Shirley is a different [unclear] [laughs], she hasn’t really forgiven so you’re welcome to go and interview her if you like [laughs], Shirley no, nor my sister Pauline neither my sister or Brenda really, they [unclear] forgiven, tough one
CB: Yeah
DJ: But that, you know, there we are. Brian had his reasons and he was entitled to them, you know, not everybody thinks the same and I think if you have seven children you are bound to have some disagreements, somewhere down the line
CB: You don’t need seven to get disagreements
DJ: No, two [laughs] or one.
CB: We’ll just stop there.
DJ: To be sold, part, consider part of the estate or sold, that was it,
CB: Those were the options
DJ: That was the options, they were part of the estate which meant they were to be sold as the rest of the estate would be
CB: Right
DJ: Or kept within the family and you cannot as my sister was saying at the time, you cannot keep one item between seven, you can’t cut it up and have a seventh each, you could all agree to give it to one person or to donate it or something, but you need full agreement and if there is one person that disagrees it’s part of the estate, that’s it, now you can have one person disagree for whatever reason, whether you want to see it sold, whether you just don’t want the museum to have it, if there is a disagreement and not, it’s not completely agreed by all seven children, it’s part of the estate, that’s how my mother’s will had been put together by her solicitor which was wrong really cause Mom would have been a lot better off, cause Mom always used to say I would rather Dad’s, my father’s medals, Dad’s medals went to David, that’s what she always wanted because she knew I would do the right thing and but that was never in my mother’s will, other members of the family knew that and kept quoting her but the solicitor said, [unclear] black on white
CB: Legally.
DJ: No.
CB: No.
DJ: This, my mother’s will was done many years ago, been forgotten about really so there it was in black on white and that was it, it just [unclear] one person to disagree for whatever reason and it was part of the estate
CB: Now Brian was the eldest?
DJ: Yes, he was, yeah
CB: And he is not with us any longer
DJ: No, oh you? that’s right, yeah, we lost him this year.
CB: Oh, this year
DJ: Yeah
CB: Right. So, how did the family, the survivors as it were, all six of you feel about it then being on display in the Imperial War Museum?
DJ: Happy.
CB: In that room?
DJ: Very happy. Very, very happy in doing it.
CB: So, does that in a way create a closure?
DJ: Yes
CB: In the family?
DJ: Absolutely, it does. They really should be in the public domain, doesn’t matter where but they’re in the public domain
CB: Yeah
DJ: That’s it. They’re still the property of Lord Ashcroft
CB: Yeah
DJ: As they should, I mean, but, you know, there we are, that’s it but they’re in the public domain which is a good thing
CB: It created, as you said earlier, a good deal of media attention and the sale price was two hundred and thirty-six thousand
DJ: Yeah
CB: What was the expected price at auction?
DJ: One forty, I think
CB: Right
DJ: From memory, I think they were saying it should reach about one hundred and forty thousand, which when you divide it by seven is nothing, twenty thousand or something like [unclear] saying at the time is just ridiculous, going through all this for twenty thousand pounds,
CB: Yes.
DJ: Which I, was a lot of money then I suppose but to me in my head it didn’t matter if it was two hundred thousand it still would’ve been a no
CB: Going back to that extraordinary experience in the Lancaster, what process do you understand went on between the crew members with your father deciding or convincing them that he should get out?
DJ: It wasn’t a, I don’t think, as I understand it he didn’t need to convince them, he was the most experienced member of the crew anyway, it was his job as far as he saw to see that Lancaster return and the crew as well, he asked the permission of the pilot Fred Mifflin who was obviously the skipper of the aircraft, he told him he could deal with it and I think the bond between them all, Fred never questioned it, it was an incredulous thing to try and do but he never questioned it and so he just let him get on with it, that was it, deal with it
CB: When he went into the prison camp, then there were lots of people there obviously, do you, what understanding do you have of how he got on when he was in the prison camp, prisoner of war camp?
DJ: The only thing I really about, Didy Grahame at the Victoria Cross and George’s Cross Association always says my father went through hell as she said in the prisoner of war camp, how she knows that I don’t know, I know very little about my father’s time in the prisoner of war camp other than he used to talk about they were very hungry all the time. He also spoke about in the prisoner of war camp was a chap who they called Little Bader who had lost both legs, he was an airman, lost both legs and they were forced to march, I don’t think this was what’s known as the long march or whatever, they were forced to leave that prisoner of war camp and march to somewhere else towards the end of the war and my father carried that chap, the legless Little Bader as they called him, the distance from that out the prisoner of war camp they [unclear] to the next one which I thought was a pretty incredible thing when, you know, you had hands that had been burnt through, broken ankles and God knows what else, [unclear] he’d healed but you couldn’t have been that good, because you hadn’t been, nutrition was probably non-existent almost and you’d carried him and the chap that Dad had carried actually wrote an article about this because he then found out about Dad’s award after the war and wrote an article saying this was the chap that carried me from the prisoner of war camp to the next prisoner of war camp, which I think was basically to get away from the advancing Allies to move further deeper into Germany and that’s what, that’s my only recollection of anything to do with my father’s time in the prisoner of war camp
CB: Do you know what his name was?
DJ: I did
CB: Ok [unclear]
DJ: I think, you can look it up, I did know it, it’s recorded, this chap, Little Bader, he’s quite well known I think
CB: Ok.
DJ: I think he was a rear gunner, I think he’d lost both legs
CB: We are talking still about the prison camp, he would have been in hospital as you said earlier all that time
DJ: Ten months according to Chaz Bowyer, yeah
CB: Ten months. And the effect of the surgery and the convalescence will still be in the system as it were when he gets to the prisoner of war camp, what do you know about the medical facilities, of the medical [unclear]?
DJ: I know nothing about, if it was [unclear] I don’t know
CB: No
DJ: I know very little if anything about the conditions within the prisoner of war camp, I know my father said they were always hungry, I know he said he never ever, he had to wait until he got back to England before he had a pillow, so he used to sleep with his arm underneath the back of his head, that’s how they had to sleep, they had no pillow or anything, very hungry all the time, as far as medical conditions, facilities were concerned I don’t know, I would have thought they were pretty basic if at all, whether they had a camp doctor I don’t know, I don’t know, I’d have to check on that
CB: Ok. We’ll stop on that.
DJ: Did prisoner of war camps have doctors?
CB: Probably. German.
DJ: They would of course
CB: If they captured people, they would [unclear].
DJ: Right.
CB: Spoke earlier about the Canadian doctor in the hospital, what do you know other than that?
DJ: I’m not sure if it was a hospital, my father spoke about a Canadian doctor, now, whether that was someone who worked in the hospital in Germany with the Germans or subsequently was a captured doctor in the prisoner of war camp I don’t know, probably the latter would have been the case, I can’t imagine the Germans sort of bringing in a Canadian doctor to help them in their hospitals, pretty bad on the payroll I wouldn’t have thought so, so it’s more than likely he was actually in the prisoner of war camp and helped at the, after being discharged from the hospital and that is probably nearer the truth
CB: In view of what your father said, did he ever make contact with that man or try to make contact with him?
DJ: Not that I know of, no, no. Not at all, not that I know of. But bear in mind, I was born in 1953, so whether he did turn up at the house prior to my being born or a few years after I’ve been born, I don’t know, I don’t remember. Dad certainly never spoke about it, other than this Canadian doctor and that was [unclear] helped him
CB: Apart from his experience with the aircraft, what else did he talk about his being dramatic because some of the earlier operations he went on as in raids were fairly dramatic, what
DJ: Yes, he used to talk about Berlin, they had, his crew at 106 Squadron they did ten tours to Berlin, which was quite a lot
CB: Ten ops
DJ: Ten ops, sorry, ten ops, not ten tours, ten ops, my apologies, three hundred missions to Berlins, ten ops to Berlin
CB: Yeah
DJ: One of them I know because it is on the records upstairs, they were hit by flak and also attacked by a fighter that night and lost one engine so they returned with three engines from Berlin all the way back to Metheringham, their base in Lincolnshire, I know that, that’s the only one Dad really used to speak other than the rest of them which were just missions, he just, it was a job to be done, one mission paled into insignificance with another mission, you know, it was just one mission after another really, had he had the choice he probably wouldn’t have wanted to go on any of them, but they just did their job
CB: Just picking up on what you said earlier about the cohesion of the crew, they tended to speak from experience of interviews as the family, what about when they were off operations? Any idea of what they did in their spare time?
DJ: [clears throat] No. I know they used to drink together around, they would go to a local pub around Metheringham or go into Lincoln together. Other than that I don’t know, bear in mind that Fred Mifflin was from Newfoundland so his family would’ve been in Newfoundland so I suspect he’d been quite close to the crew, keeping them together and then the rest of the crew would have known that so they looked after their skipper and the rest from various parts of the country, so they would have spent a lot of time together as a family, a family unit.
CB: I’ll stop there again. Thank you.
DJ: Maybe my father always spoke about the rear gunner who was killed that night
CB: The time when he got out of the plane
DJ: Yeah
CB: Well he
DJ: Well, he, the rear gunner, Dad said, was injured in the first attack
CB; Oh, right.
DJ: He was hit. Now Dad said, he probably would’ve never survived a parachute jump, now whether that was the reason why my father decided to do what he did or not, I don’t know, now that may be the reason, he was very good friends with Fred Mifflin the pilot who was also killed that night, my father said or Sandy Sandeland the wireless operator actually said they did both manage to get out of the aircraft, he saw them, Fred Mifflin was, Johnny Johnson was near the escape hatch at the back of the aircraft, Fred Mifflin was released, he was standing up, ready to move away from the controls, the Germans say they were both found within the aircraft, Sandy Sandeland always said that they got out of the aircraft and they were killed on the ground, so there was a little bit of disagreement there about what happened and my father says, knowing how aircrew were treated when they were off for a bombing mission on a village or town or city, he believed they were killed on the ground but we don’t know, there’s another story that Fred Mifflin and Johnny Johnson were very good friends, Johnny Johnson was injured, couldn’t survive the parachute jump so stayed with the aircraft and tried to bring it down, that’s another story, whether it’s true or not I don’t know, my father didn’t know, he was not in the aircraft but my father always believed they were killed on the ground and not in the aircraft.
CB: Ok.
DJ: Was one of those things you could never prove either way, really
CB: Yes, it’s difficult to deal with
DJ: Yeah.
CB: Now, we’ve covered dramatic things here but there was some good sides so how did your parents come to meet in the first place?
DJ: My father, actually my mother told this story that the way they met was my father used to cycle to the engineering works which was in Richmond from Twickenham, my mother lived in Twickenham at the time and Dad used to cycle past her daily and whistle and then wink. My mother used to obviously totally ignore him and then there was a dance one night at a club in Twickenham and that was where my father saw my Mum and approached her and asked her to dance, I think my mother refused, my father wouldn’t go away, kept on asking and eventually my mother gave in and that’s where it started. That was it.
CB: Persistent man.
DJ: A man who knew what he wanted, I think
CB: So how long did it take him to
DJ: Well, that would’ve been in 1938 to ’39, just prior to him joining up. Bear in mind my mother was born in 1922 so at that time she would’ve been sixteen years of age, coming on seventeen, so a young girl. They married in ’42 when she was twenty. And it was just prior to the war
CB: And then the decision on getting married, how did that work? Cause he’s been away for a bit.
DJ: Yeah, he was sent away, I think they actually were quite close and got engaged I believe in 1940 if I remember correctly and then my father was sent to North Africa, Freetown, North West Africa
CB: Sierra Leone
DJ: Indeed and was there until ’42 and my mother didn’t know where he was, received the odd letter but that was it, gone, and came back in ’42, September, they got back together and the, arranged their wedding for Boxing Day of that year and that was it. Happy ever since.
CB: But most of the war, [unclear] after that ‘42
DJ: Yeah.
CB: Then they were, father was still around
DJ: He, he was in the UK
CB: In the UK, so, how did they live together or did [unclear]?
DJ: No, they
CB: They lived apart all the time
DJ: They, Mum lived in Twickenham, in Church Street, Twickenham.
CB: Right.
DJ: She had a flat there, which my father used to visit when he was off duty, all the time my father was on duty, he would’ve been stationed at the airfield at Metheringham or Syerston first and then Metheringham
CB: Yeah, she didn’t move up to Lincolnshire
DJ: No, she didn’t, she stayed in Twickenham, that’s where she was
CB: And then after the war,
DJ: Yeah
CB: He was still in the RAF
DJ: He was
CB: So, the same arrangement continued
DJ: No, well, bear in mind that my father came back at the end of the war in Europe, he then was still stationed in the RAF, my mother was still living in Twickenham. Come ’46, he left the Royal Air Force, they then took a house in Whitton, which is near Twickenham, a rented accommodation while my father was looking for some land to build a house and that he found in Burtons Road Hampton Hill not far from there and then built the bungalow
CB: What do you know about how he came back from the prison camp? Because he wasn’t in the long march, you said
DJ: I don’t believe the march that was spoken about was the long march, it may well have been
CB: No, that’s right. Yeah.
DJ: But I don’t know, I don’t believe it was [coughs], I’m sure my father would have mentioned that, I think a lot of people died on that march, I don’t think it was that one, sorry [unclear]. [coughs] What did he say about that? I can’t remember much about it at all
CB: How did he actually get back to Britain? Was he flown back or [unclear]?
DJ: Again, I don’t know whether he was on a boat or actually flown back, I don’t know, a lot of the prisoners of war were flown back
CB: They were in Operation Exodus, yes
DJ: So, it may well be that he was flown back but he never spoke about it and I never asked him the question
CB: Ok. Right. Well, David Jackson thank you very much for a most interesting.
DJ: An absolute pleasure, Chris.
CB: Just. Parents give advice to families and children all the time. So, what was your father’s what shall I say recommendation that you should do in life?
DJ: Well, one thing I can remember my father saying to all of us was that, just remember, you don’t have to prove anything to anybody and personally I never quite knew what he meant by that until we were at school when everybody it seemed wanted to challenge you or expected you to step up to the mark where a challenge was involved, this was even with the school teachers who, if there was a rugby game, football game, whatever, they would expect you to excel in what you were doing because
CB: Because of your father was a VC
DJ: Because of my father, yeah. And it really was difficult to live up to thatt a lot of the time, very difficult
CB: Right
PJ: You’re down?
CB: Well, we keep going. No, let’s just. Penny is here now, so let’s just get a bit of reflection on other things. What do you remember about your father-in-law, although you didn’t meet him very often?
PJ: I met him over about a two- or three-year period but the first time I met him, I knocked at the front door and he opened the door and he went, hello, who are you? And I said, my name is Penny and I’m here to see David. Just a minute, [unclear] over his shoulder and shouted, David! One of your girlfriends is here! That’s my first meeting with Norman Jackson. We had a few more like that afterwards, didn’t we?
DJ: Wonderful man!
PJ: [laughs] Oh, you want me to add that bit. Wonderful man! [laughs]
CB: And you did meet him again. And what did he say the second time?
PJ: Oh, I don’t remember the second time, I can remember
CB: Other times
PJ: I can remember a few wedding receptions, family wedding receptions where we went to where he’d rather stayed in the pub than gone to the wedding reception
CB: Right
PJ: And we had to help him out, didn’t we?
DJ: Yeah
PJ: We assisted him out of various pubs
DJ: He’d rather stay at the bar with his whisky rather than go to the actual function itself, yeah
PJ: Yes
CB: Well, he was a man who distributed lemonade as a whisky
PJ: True
CB: As a job
PJ: Oh, that’s a good excuse
CB: You’ve gotta have confidence in your product
DJ: Absolutely
CB: You must try it out
PJ: Of course
DJ: I used to [unclear] He was a John Hague man through and through, absolutely
CB: A man of great belief
PJ: He was
DJ: And conviction
CB: Conviction
PJ: He was a lovely man, very lovely man, nice family man, good heart
CB: How did, the two of you, what was your perspective of the lack of a Bomber memorial or a lack of a memorial to the bomber crews?
DJ: Well, I know what my father’s opinion on that was. Really, upset him quite a lot and personally I couldn’t understand why, I know a lot more about why now and even though a lot of people who come up with reasons why it shouldn’t have been put up need to really go back and relearn their history because their facts are wrong, totally wrong and it was shame that Winston Churchill really dismissed [unclear] knowledge with Bomber Command at the end of the war, I think that was a start a bit really but I know my father was very upset by the lack of the memorial to these guys and would’ve been very, very happy to have been at the unveiling of the memorial in Green Park had us talking when that happened but to wait so long after the end of the Second World War for a memorial to the service that had the highest loss rate of any of the services is unthinkable really, I can’t answer [unclear] just unthinkable
CB: Thinking of the history of this, bearing in mind the Germans were practicing in the Spanish civil war, what were the main things that stick in your mind about what the Germans did originally?
DJ: Originally by starting the Second World War
CB: Then the bombing context
DJ: I think that the bombing context of the German Luftwaffe, maybe the bombing of cities you could almost say happened by accident, Coventry was meant to be a reprisal for what happened with the bombing of Munich by RAF following Hitler’s speech in Munich at that time. The bombing of London was meant to be a mistake by one bomber that basically had navigation had gone wrong and ended up in the East End of London and dropped his bombs during the Battle of Britain but if that’s true then what happened in the Spanish civil war, places like Guernica
CB: Guernica
DJ: Guernica which was basically used as a proving ground for the bombing tactics of the Luftwaffe, in my view they always had the intention of destroying whatever they could destroy. I think that the Germans, the Second World War was the First World War almost as it evolved into was not like a normal war that beknown before it was total war and it involved everybody within the country, absolutely everybody. I do think that the Allies fought the Second World War as indeed the First World War with a degree of humanity. I don’t believe that the Nazis, I think for them humanity didn’t exist.
CB: You talked earlier about when father landed and by parachute and the reaction of with the comment Terror Flieger. Could you just for the record here explain what Terror Flieger, what they meant by that?
DJ: A flier that delivers terror. Probably in today’s terminology a terrorist. And I believe, and my father always understood it, these German cities were suffering night after night and so that’s how he understood it, as a person delivering terror, to people who as far as I’m sure, that man who lived in that cottage was concerned, they didn’t deserve it. Maybe he wasn’t aware of Germany’s position within the Second World War or the reasons for the Second World War. He knew what he was being told, whether that was the truth, who knows. But if the, where the Nazis were concerned, I doubt it. But I’m sure he looked at my father as someone that was pretty awful [laughs] and should, you know, should have been treated pretty bad, abominably really and not with any humanity at all. That’s what I think.
CB: And he’s unlikely to have known what was happening in London, Coventry, Liverpool, Belfast, Portsmouth, Plymouth, all these places
DJ: No, I don’t believe that at all, and I think we’re talking about a different time where people weren’t, where news wasn’t as readily available as it is today, I’m sure he would’ve been aware of the rise to power of Adolf Hitler and the aims of Adolf Hitler, whether he considered the rest of Europe was to blame, the Allies [unclear] the rest of Europe, for what was happening in Germany towards the end of the war and it was ill deserved as far as Germany was concerned I don’t know, but I’m sure, when he said Terror Flieger, he meant that these people, these Royal Air Force during the night, at night and the American Air Force during the day were delivering terror that was ill deserved on the German cities. [unclear] sure was what he meant.
CB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with David Jackson
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJacksonDM171130
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:25:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
David Jackson tells of his father, Norman Jackson VC, born in Ealing, London in 1919 and who worked in an engineering company when the war broke out. After initially trying to join the navy, he then joined the RAF and classified as a fitter on engines. He was then posted to 95 Squadron and trained on Sunderland flying boats before remustering as a flight engineer. David gives a detailed and vivid account of his father’s operation to Schweinfurt on the 27th of April 1944, which earned him the Victoria Cross: although he had reached his 30 operations with 106 Squadron, he volunteered to join the aircrew to see them through, making this his thirty first operation; the aircraft was attacked by an enemy fighter and racked by cannon fire; with the aircraft on fire, Norman decided to exit the plane in order to extinguish the flames. At the second attack, Norman was blown off the aircraft and landed in enemy territory, breaking both ankles and suffering serious injuries on his hands. He reached a German village, where he was indignantly called “Terror Flieger”, taken into custody, paraded through the streets and taken for treatment to hospital, where he spent ten months. Afterwards he was interned in a prisoner of war camp. David remembers when his father was invested with the Victoria Cross at Buckingham Palace and met Leonard Cheshire. David remembers his father flying ten operations to Berlin and tells of one on which they were attacked by enemy fire and lost one engine. David tells of the legal issues regarding his father’s medals and how they ended up in the Imperial War Museum after being sold at an auction. He discusses his father’s views on the lack of recognition to the aircrews after the war and debates the bombing context of the German Luftwaffe.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--London
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Schweinfurt
Temporal Coverage
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1944-04-27
106 Squadron
95 Squadron
aircrew
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
memorial
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Halton
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
Sunderland
training
Victoria Cross
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/894/11134/AHyndC171115.2.mp3
7703d85d1a928e6d8f6c63dd70ebb3c6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hynd, Colin
C Hynd
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Colin Hynd (1925 - 2022, 1825158 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 158 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hynd, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach the interviewee is Colin Hynd. The interview is taking place at Mr Hynd’s home in Dunfermline on the 15th November 2017. Colin, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed. Could you tell me a little about your life before you joined the RAF?
CH: Well, I went to the local schools, obviously commercial school and Queen Anne’s school, and when I left school at the age of fourteen just at the beginning of the war in September 1939, I got a job in the local cinema because jobs in those days were extremely hard to find. My wage was six shillings and eight pence per week, anyway, I only lasted there a month and I went on and got two subsequent jobs in the local gents outfitters, but that wasn’t satisfying me so I went to Todds Engineers in Dunfermline and became an apprentice turner, where I did turning until 1943 when I joined the Royal Air Force, but as I was underage at the time I had to wait until I was eighteen and a quarter which was in the November of 1943, when I was called up, and went to Lord‘s Cricket Ground for various tests and what have you, and we- We did three weeks in London being kitted out, medical-ed, the usual, uniforms and what have you, and then from there went on up to Bridlington to the initial training wing up there, and did six weeks up there, doing various signalling, gunnery, of course drill and all that, and then from there, after the six weeks went to St Athans, where we did the, the flight engineers training. Unfortunately, during my early days there I developed scarlet fever, so of course I was in hospital for a month, and when I came out my actual course had moved on that far, anyway [emphasis] I carried on, various entries and anybody that was available to do the thing where you studied engines, air frames, electrics, meteorology, gunnery again of course they just - Dismantling the guns and that, education of course was a big thing in those days as well but, eventually after, something like nine months, I was awarded my stripes and my brevet, my flight engineer’s brevet. After being awarded my stripes and my brevet I was posted to a heavy conversion unit at Marston Moor which is in Yorkshire, where you then actually were working on the real aircraft which were Halifaxes. You then saw what you’d only previously seen on a blackboard, and you did that for approximately two weeks, and as well as that of course you could go get a bit of experience on a crew who were doing a night exercise or, air tests, anything like that that was available, but I didn’t get crewed up, for about three weeks at that time. Anyway, the crew that I joined, unfortunately, they all drank and I didn’t, and I wasn’t very popular because of course I didn’t go out drinking, so the pilot at that time, told the engineer’s leader that I was no use as a flight engineer. Anyway I was duly called into the office, where I was interviewed for approximately four hours over engineer- Flight engineer matters, the subsequent outcome was that I was given the job of teaching the new recruits from St Athans, the pre-flight checks, how to start the engines, how to operate the, the petrol levers and all, all that, from when they came from training school, so of course, the outcome of that was that after some weeks, I was told that- What had happened, and why I’d been removed from the crew and that, I would be offered a commission when I got to the squadron, unfortunately the war finished before we got to that stage in my career [slightly laughs], however, they – The, the aircrew without the engineer, because, people trained at different places, but all came together at the HCU, without the flight engineer because up till then they had been flying in two-engined aircraft to teach them the art of gunnery or navigation or whatever, but then when they went onto the four-engined aircraft, like the Halifax, the Lancaster, Sunderlands, they needed a flight engineer. Anyway there was a bit of a shortage at the time so I was posted to Riccall which was near Selby, where I carried on doing the same thing, teaching the newer lads the pre-flight checks and all that sort of thing and then eventually they had an intake of crews, and in those days, the crews plus the flight engineers were put into this room and the wing commander flying, then gave a lecture but this was just a ploy so that the crews could see who the flight engineers were. Anyway I was approached by one of the crew members, Johnny Prosser, who was the wireless op in this crew which were Canadian, anyway I decided to, to join them, as their flight engineer, so from there on in, I, I did the flying experience which I’d learnt prior to this on my own, I didn’t need anybody with me obviously, so that er- We did air tests, short daylight runs, a lot of night flying, because the pilot of course being new to the four engine bomber always had a pilot with him who had had experience, so of course no aircraft could take off without a flight engineer anyway [emphasis] because it was too complicated where - What you had to do as a flight engineer, so that - We then eventually moved onto the squadron, 158 which was an operational squadron, they had had a terrific loss, of personnel, they had- We had New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, RAF and it was a mixed squadron really, but the flight engineers of course no matter which crew you joined were always RAF, because that was the only place that trained engineers was St Athans, from then on it was just basically doing exercises and that until somebody decided you should go on a bombing trip. When that happened, you were all gathered together, into this building which was secured with armed police surrounding it so that you couldn’t get out [laughs] or the phones were cut off, you couldn’t make a phone call and you sat in this building waiting for someone to come in and remove the curtain from what the target was going to be, you were then shown the target and you were explained the, the route you would take to the target, the route out, the weather that you would meet, where the opposition was heaviest with gunfire, or fighters, things like that was all in- And then it could well happen that halfway through all this, they would decide to change the target so you then had to wait until your new target was announced which could take ages, then they would start again having looked at this new target route and the way in. Again you couldn’t go anywhere, you were, you were all right for a cup of tea [chuckles] but that was about it, and on one occasion they changed the target on three occasions, so - But again it was the old thing, just sit and wait, and wait for the people to tell you what the weather was going to be, or what the target was, the route out, the route in, because you never came back the same way, and of course it was extremely dangerous if you were on night flying because you could have anything from a thousand to fifteen-hundred aircraft in the air at any given time, and of course nobody, or very few ever stuck to the speed they were supposed to be flying at, or the height they were supposed to be flying at, because you were given a height, your squadron would fly at, say twenty-thousand feet but then behind you five-minutes later should be another squadron at nineteen-thousand-five-hundred, and they were supposed to step down like that with the gap in between, so you stopped this overflying which of course it never did because, you could be on your run up to your target, and of course you’d suddenly look up and five-hundred feet above you you’d see a bomber with its bomb doors open, so of course they couldn’t see you, so you had to abort and, well either just carry on or go round which was an extremely dangerous thing to do when you’re turning a full circle in that number of aircraft, but our pilot being a Canadian did exactly that one night, not very popular pilot [chuckles]. Anyway we had to do the run up again, and of course all the time, people are shooting at you, and once that stops you know - You then knew the fighters were up, so you had to watch for them, also of course you had the problem with searchlights, now, when you got a group of searchlights, one of them was blue, and that was the master searchlight and once that got you all the other searchlights hooked on, and of course then the gunners, or the fighters whichever was at the time, then attacked that one aircraft and, that was an extremely dangerous situation. But during the war also of course we had the problem that we had the Americans flying with us, not on the same squadron, but on their squadrons, and they used to join in, they would never fly at night the Americans, at all, but during the day the Flying Fortresses were out in force, which made life even more difficult, because they were rather prone to shoot at you if you- If they, didn’t realise and especially we had one sort of, a new Halifax which was unmarked, we didn’t have the RAF roundels on it and we were a bit frightened that the Americans would shoot us because it was a known fact that if any of our aircraft was shot down in Germany or France, then they were redone and they- The Germans flew them.
JS: Mm-hm.
CS: The other thing of course was that - I forgot to mention, that was before we got to the squadron, when we were at the heavy conversion unit, they- If there was an op on, we at the HCU would be sent in the opposite direction to the bomber force with the object being to draw the fighters, of cou- [laughs] of course the unfortunate part about that was that we never had any ammunition to shoot at the fighters because it was in short supply, but you, you did it and- Best as you could, but, I mean it was just a small force but the i- As I say, the idea was to draw the fighters away from the main force so that they could get a free run at whatever the target was. But anyway once you got to- As I say to the point of where you [emphasis] were actually operating on a, a raid, then of course it was every man for himself, and we unfortunately lost our rear gunner, not through injury or anything like that but, there was two types of fire, there was a projected gunfire and a box gunfire, the projected gunfire was that you could see the rounds coming up behind you and obviously if you stayed at the same height the gunners got your height and then it was just a question of getting closer to you, and of course the rear gunner could see this and I could see it because I was watching through the panel above my station in the Halifax, so of course we had to forget what we were doing and try and stop the, the rear gunner from bailing out which - There was two doors, one in the aircraft and one on the turret, so we had to keep pulling the dead man's handle, to stop the air gunner ‘cause he could operate his turret manually or electrically, and simply roll it round and then fall out backwards, but you have to appreciate that the tail end of a bomber is extremely narrow, and in there you have a huge oleo leg which was the, the rear wheel ‘cause that didn’t retract like the front carriage, so we spent ages, and of course he was trying to bale out panicked, and we were trying to stop him which we eventually did, and that was how we lost him because he was then classed as LMF which is lack of moral fibre, so we then of course got another rear gunner who had lost his crew, but this really was a no-no, that it was taught that it was very bad luck to take on another crew member who wasn’t there at the beginning, and in fact, on one of our last raids we had a whole- A bomb that went through the tail plane of our aircraft from one above, which fortunately it was only a small two-hundred-and-fifty pound bomb, and it just made a hole in the tail plane near the rudder but didn’t effect because we didn’t know that we’d been hit, until we got back to dispersal and saw the hole in the -In the tail plane. But after that, the- Very few raids, because we were getting close to the end of the war in ‘45, and we just carried on the same routine of if there was- You were going on a raid, you had a meal, then you were locked up in this building till the- You knew where you were going et cetera, and then of course, the war finished and all these foreigners, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, the Canadians, disappeared overnight back to their own countries so, the only personnel that were left were RAF. So what we did was a pilot and flight engineer got loaded up with bombs and pyrotechnics and, things like that, or unused ammunition and, and we used to fly out to the North Sea, drop this- And I acted as the bomb aimer, because there was only the pilot and me on board, but after that then, the war finished, we got rid of most of the, the bomb ordinance, and the flame float- Smoke floats, all that type of thing, and we were sent on indefinite leave.
JS: That’s - That was great, can I just take you back a wee bit, on your - That was really fascinating. You spoke about your crew, and interestingly how you, the RAF made crews was to sort of put you all in one room and say ‘sort yourselves out’, and you said you were picked by one of the other guys on the other crew, how did you get on with the rest of your crew?
CH: I got on well with them, I never had a problem, apart from one night, we were on a raid and as always if I moved from my engineer position to where the- You had to operate the petrol cocks, which were in the rest position, so I had to move, I would tell the pilot I was going back to change tanks. Now the Halifax had twelve petrol tanks, and you had a sequence, and we were on tanks five and six which were joined, which were big tanks and, I told him I was going back so what I was waiting for, I was waiting for four red lights to come up to tell me that the tank was empty, or the tanks on both sides were empty, and I would then close those levers and bring on the next levers with full tanks. Unfortunately, I fell asleep because it was so cold back there that I stuck the heating pipe up my flying harness which was nice and warm then, and also, we had been on a daylight raid earlier, and by the time we were debriefed and had a meal, and got taken back to our accommodation which was always outside the camp, we’d only had about four hours sleep when the police came and wakened up us again because we were on the night detail. Anyway, I’m enjoying my sleep and I hear this shouting down the earphones, ‘I’ve no petrol, I’ve no petrol’, but I don’t see what the pilot's problem was, we were at twenty-thousand feet anyway, so we had plenty time to remedy the situation. So, I closed tanks five and six both sides and opened tank number four either side, and within seconds he had his petrol, but he never forgave me for that, though he didn’t hold it against me, he gave me a bollocking but apart from that, it went off- That was about the only time we had a, a disagreement actually. In fact it went remarkably well because he landed once - We were on an air test, this aircraft had been serviced and we- It was our aircraft, so we took it for a short flight, and on the way back, in Yorkshire, the pilot decides to land [emphasis], and I said to him at the time, I said, ‘This is not our airfield’, ‘Yes it is, I know where we are.’ I said, ‘No it isn’t’ because each aircraft has its own- Each airfield had its own identification, and the one that was flashing wasn’t flashing Lisset. Anyway, we landed, and suddenly a jeep pulls up in front of us, a flight lieutenant gets out, comes to the aircraft, I go to the door, open it, he says, ‘What you doing here?’ I said, ‘We landed at the wrong air field.’ He said, ‘You’re dead right,’ He said, ‘Where are you from?’, So we said ‘Lisset,’ he said ‘Well you’re just over the road there’ [chuckles]. So, I mean that was how close we were, so he’d turned left instead of turning right, so anyway I told the pilot, so that sort of evened out my, misfortune for the, the petrol incident, but it was one of those things, I was tired [emphasis] and it was cold, and of course with sticking the hot air pipe up my flying harness got me nice and comfy.
JS: You- You mentioned as part of that, that your accommodation was off-base?
CH: Yes
JS: So- So what was your accommodation like?
CH: Well, to say the least, the accommodation was very rough. It was all dry toilets, because you were in a field, and what they’d done, they’d simply put the wooden huts in a clearance place, and then built like, toilets outside. There was no water on site, nothing like that, so you then had to go to the sergeants mess to have your wash and shave, and in fact at Riccall which was a heavy conversion unit, we had to walk across two fields to get to the sergeants mess, and if you were lucky you managed to get a locker to keep your stuff in there, there were- You know, you could locks, otherwise you had to carry it backwards and forwards to have a wash, and of course you used the toilets and that, but they had obviously water, but other than that, it was dry, lavatories and I won’t describe what they were [laughs], primitive to say the least. You were lucky, again, if you had a stove in these because your predecessors had probably knocked out the front of the, the stove, and had nicked some bread from the cookhouse to do toast back in the billet if you could find enough fuel to get the fire going because, in those days people didn’t come round and drop off coke for you, or anything, you had to do the scrounging bit as well. So you had to look after yourself, but there was an awful lot of self-discipline, a lot of self-discipline involved amongst the air crew but, they knew the rules and that was it, you stuck by them, not like the present-day air force you know, so that was the situation.
JS: Thank you. The- I read that were- You spoke about things being seen as not being lucky, about, you said if, if you took somebody on from another crew that the rest of their crew were lost that was seen as not being lucky, I read that there were two, there were two aircraft in the squadron, that by the end, by VE day had done well over a hundred operations, was the number of operations that your aircraft had done, was that seen as being lucky, or?
CH: No, the, the aircraft- One of the aircrafts that you’ve mentioned, did thirty-two ops, which was a lot, and I have a book on that particular aircraft, of course, the crews that manned it over the period of time, and in fact they- Elvington, which I’ve previously mentioned, outside York, they built a Halifax bomber, starting with the fuselage which came from Lerwick I think it was, or a bit of fuselage, which a farmer had bought because a Halifax had crashed in that area and his sheep, or whatever he had in the field at that time, took shelter in it. Anyway it was brought down to Elvington and by a lot of good will et cetera, was built to look like a Halifax bomber, and I had the privilege of being the first person that was allowed in to the actual aircraft, to, to see what work had been done, because it was like all the others, aircraft on view they were all roped off and you weren’t allowed to enter they were all locked, but because I’d been a flight engineer, and in fact I've got photographs of the actual aircraft, that was why I was allowed because as I say, I was a flight engineer on that squadron, with that particular aircraft, though I never flew in it. You were allocated an aircraft, different aircraft, it could be every time, you know, but, no, some people carried things with them which was for some reason special to them. Some of them carried crosses, you know, not on- Not based on a religious thing, other people had other things which they considered to be important and they carried them for good luck charms and put them on- I never carried anything like that, but that, that again, but that was one of the things that was fiercely resisted, that if you took on someone else then you were dicing with death.
JS: Interesting. You spoke earlier and took us up, up to the end of the war, and you said then, everybody- All the folk who’d come from elsewhere in the world, the Canadians and New Zealanders and whatever, they, they shipped home, and you mentioned dumping surplus munitions in the, in the North Sea, so, what did you do after that?
CH: Well after that, as I said to you we, we were sent on indefinite leave, and then we were called back, given a short list of jobs that we could do. I picked one which you- You had to pick something, so I picked an airframe mechanics job, went back to St Athans, did the course, wasn’t very happy with it, it wasn’t my type of work, anyway, I was posted to Desborough after that, and in those days I was a flight sergeant by then, during the day you covered up your badge of rank, so you worked as an airman, but you still used the sergeants mess, which you took you armbands- Your covers off to show your rank, but then in the morning you put them back on again. But there was a shortage of, senior NCOs at Desborough, so I was drafted in to the tech disip[?] office, without the badge covered up, so I carried on in there, and then the, because this was the time when there was many demobs going on at the end of the war, so I suddenly found myself taking over as well, as NCOIC police. So I was doing that job and suddenly I got told I was NCOIC fire section, so I’d now three jobs, and I thought well that’s it, that can’t get anymore, unfortunately I was wrong. We decided, or somebody decided that we’d have some German prisoners of war, though the war was over but, anyway, I had to go and collect these prisoners of war, we didn’t put them any locked compound or anything, I only had an LAC to help me, so I became ICGM and prisoners, and then I thought that must be it, but wrong again. At this time they decided to start the ATC having the summer camps at RAF stations, and Desborough was picked so I suddenly became IC air training corps cadets, in the- On the camp as well. So it was quite a busy time, the way, you had various things like courts martial as well, and of course I got that job, again because of your rank. The down side of all this was that they suddenly brought out two dates, all those who were warrant officers or flight sergeants had to reduce themselves to the rank of sergeant by this certain date, so fair enough, it was nothing uncommon to see a bloke walking round with a warrant officers’ uniform on showing where his gallopers had been on his arm wearing an LAC’s prop. Then the second date, that was when you reduced yourself to your rank in your ground trade, now had I not been lucky enough, I would’ve finished up as an AC1, but I remustered whilst all this business had being- IC Police and all the rest of it. To what were called in those days an aircraft and general duties, that was trade groups one to five in those days, but the trade I was in was trade group one, the air frames, but, five was the aircraft hand, and by doing that of course I managed to, on paper, work my way up to corporal, and then I saw an advert in the air ministry orders for drill instructors, now prior to all this upheaval I had gone to Cardington, and I did a six weeks warrant officers and flight sergeants course, which I passed, so of course that helped me no end. So I applied to become a drill instructor, and because of that of course I got made acting segreant, but the funny part about that was the, course was at- By this time had moved to RAF Credenhill which, subsequently became RAF Hereford, and I was standing outside with the rest of the course, waiting to be interviewed by the squadron commander, a warrant officer walked past, came up to me and said, ‘I know you,’ and I said ‘Yes, you know me’, he said ‘Where was it,’ I said ‘Cardington’, I gave him my name and that, away he went, anyway later on, I was told to leave the queue, so I was made a staff instructor there and then without doing that particular course. So I did that, and I did three years as staff instructor on the school airdrome, we taught weapons and bayonet fighting, admin, drill obviously, and this was training recruits into instructors, so that they could go out ‘cause in those days there was quite a lot of them. Anyway in 1949, I got posted to Padgate which was a school of training, and there I suddenly found myself nominated to set up a course for officer cadets, because the officer cadet school was full, so of course being- My background, I got the job of setting up this course for officer cadets, it was only a one-off thing, but then I did eighteen months there, and then during that time RAF Halton had gone through all the drill instructors in the RAF, we were told, and five of us had been selected from, because there was an awful lot of drill instructors in those days, five of us were selected for Halton, and the funny part about that, I always remember to this day [emphasis] was when I reported to the guard room, the corporal policeman said ‘Don’t unpack, you may not be stopping’ [laughs]. The obvious bit being that if you failed the five days, which was the period that they assessed you, from the air commodore, two group captains and various wing commanders, during the week, you had to do certain exercises, anyway, I was selected and I did three years there and that was where I became a substantive sergeant then, while I was there was seven years but, pay for seniority, so my sergeant went away back to when I became a sergeant flight engineer which made a big difference. So, anyway these blokes I’m still in touch with to this day, these apprentices, they’re in their mid-eighties, and I periodically get letters or phone calls from them, even now as we speak. But that was a hectic three years because I had two-hundred-and-twenty of them, and they were aged seventeen to twenty because they did three years, so if, they were unfortunate to fail their entry and got back flighted, they went back a year. So they then became that much older and more difficult to handle because, even though they were twenty or twenty-one the rules said they weren’t allowed to smoke, they weren’t allowed to go with girls, they had to be in bed by twenty-two-hundred-hours, things like that, but you still had to maintain discipline at that age. In fact, not so long ago I had a phone call from a group captain, who had been one of my, what we called snags, the leading apprentices but they were nicknamed snags, and of course he said, you know, the reason he rang, was that he, when he was a wing commander had been posted to Swinderby as OC training, and somewhere along the line he had either seen my name or heard my name mentioned, and was commenting on the work that DI’s did at square bashing camps, you see, so that, that was how I met him, but he’s still alive to this day, like me but [chuckles] that, that was that. Then, I got posted to Yatesbury by mistake, I was posted to the boy entrants wing, who unfortunately had moved before I got there and had moved up to Cosford, so I then got posted up to Kirkham near Preston, where they had trainees there but unfortunately, the station warrant officer there at that time had been the station warrant officer at Credenhill of course I was immediately in his office rather than sent out, anyway, that wasn't- Didn’t work very well really.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Colin Hynd
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHyndC171115
Format
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00:44:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
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James Sheach
Description
An account of the resource
Summary: Colin Hynd joined the RAF in November 1943. Upon completing initial training, he was posted to RAF St Athan, where he trained as a flight engineer. He struggled to bond with his first crew, so instead worked as an instructor before joining a Canadian crew based at 158 Squadron. Hynd recounts the briefing process and dangers during bombing operations. He also describes why their rear gunner was accused of Lack of Moral Fibre, accidentally falling asleep during an operation, dumping surplus munitions in the North Sea, and the conditions of their accommodation. Finally, Hynd describes serving as drill instructor after the war.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1945
158 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
military living conditions
RAF Desborough
RAF Halton
RAF Lissett
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/860/11102/AHarrisNG160128.2.mp3
617dde8eedd97b1d29cf4bc164b586a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Neil
Neil Gibson Harris
N G Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Neil Harris (b. 1920, 56027 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 578 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, NG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright, I am interviewing Flight Lieutenant Brian Wright DFC of Bomber Command on Thursday, the 28th of January 2016 at his home in Lidham and the time is twenty past three in the afternoon. Just to start us with a formal question, if you wouldn’t mind so, could you just confirm your full name, rank on leaving and your service number please?
NH: Neil Gibson Harris, 56027, Flight Lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And I believe you are born in November 1920 in Bournemouth.
NH: 27/11/1920, yes.
BW: What was your family like, you lived with your parents, of course, did you have any brothers or sisters?
NH: Yes, I had two brothers and one sister we, fairly wide range, my eldest brother was nine years older than me and my sister was six years younger than me. So, was a spread of fifteen years between us, we are a working-class family, thank you, but very close.
BW: And what was the area like where you were growing up, was it [unclear]?
NH: Very pleasant indeed, oh, suburban, but very pleasant. Although basically a lower middle-class type area.
BW: And you were at school in Bournemouth during that time?
NH: Yes.
BW: I understand that you left school at fourteen.
NH: Fourteen, school called East Howe.
BW: East Howe.
NH: Yes.
BW: And did you have any qualifications?
NH: No, there weren’t, there were no qualifications available in those days. Not at fourteen, no, just, you just left school at fourteen and started working. And I went to work in the East Dorset brickworks as an office boy but by the end of nine months, I was rang into [unclear] office and my salary went, my wages went from seven and six to fifteen schillings, the works manager didn’t, gave me all his work to do [laughs]
BW: Just [unclear] you with it.
NH: So, I went from there to Bowmakers, which is a banking facilities company in Bournemouth, where I upgraded my position quite a bit, I was a proper clerk, a junior clerk.
BW: And from there I understand you went into the civil service.
NH: No, not the civil service, no, I went straight into the Air Force from there.
BW: Oh, I see, so you were [unclear]
NH: As an apprentice, as an apprentice. No, I’ve never been in the civil service, No, I went, that was, I was fifteen when I went to Bowmakers and I was nearly seventeen when I joined the RAF as an apprentice at Halton.
BW: Ok, and this would be 1937, so that would be
NH: That would be 1930, no, earlier, yes, ’37, that’s right, yes, ’37, September ’37.
BW: And what attracted you to join the RAF, what was your interest in that?
NH: Well, there were half a dozen or so, junior clerks, they all had had benefit of grammar school type of education, which is different to the one that I had and I, three or four of them were interested in the RAF, two of them, like myself, became apprentices, and one of them became an acting private officer
BW: I see.
NH: And a man named Haynes, he was a Battle of Britain pilot eventually, he was killed eventually too, got a DFC, shot down five, after that I don’t know anything about him but he didn’t survive the war, that’s all I know.
BW: A shame. And so, what prompted you to join the RAF, did you sense that the war was coming or did you [unclear]?
NH: Well, I think It’s the effect of three or four of us talking about the RAF and doing quite a nice job, had a pleasant working situation at Bowmakers but we wanted more excitement, I think. And of course I wanted more education, I, leaving school at fourteen I still felt I’d liked to have gone to a public school, there’s no chance of me doing that but RAF Halton provided a fairly good substitute, we had school and workshops and plenty of sport, which is what I wanted.
BW: And was there a good social life as well?
NH: Oh, no, social life, no, you weren’t allowed out [laughs], no, there’s three years hard regime but you had plenty of sports, but never saw a girl [laughs], no, we were all frustrated [unclear] [laughs]
BW: And so you
NH: It was a good training, excellent, marvellous training of course.
BW: And so, your trade in the engineering branch was what?
NH: I was a fitter 2A, a fitter to airframe.
BW: Ok.
NH: I managed to get in because the expansion scheme had started and the entries became much larger so I [unclear] an examination of three set papers, quite large, got a couple of them here somewhere, and I’m quite impressed by the standards that they required. So I did a lot of private study, my second brother was a very clever man, young man, he helped me a lot, he was an, he was a really highly, he became a highly qualified engineer and he helped me a lot, I managed to scrape in and but by that time, entries were getting to something like nine hundred or a thousand, so two entries a year, and of course the expansion scheme has started because of the threat of Hitler and there were, so, we were, before that time it was, you were called fitter twos and you did both engines and airframes, they split us up, the aircrafts were becoming more complicated and so you either became airframe, a fitter airframe or a fitter engine and then you did your three year, it’s a three year training, you did your three year training either as a fitter to airframe or a fitter to engine, and then the scheme was that after you’d been out on a normal squadron, and had practical experienced, you went back and did another year and that would be a conversion, if you did airframes before then you did a year on engines or vice versa so then you became a fitter one, so that’s basically how the training worked.
BW: And so, you get a good grounding not just in the structure of the aircraft but also the powerplants as well.
NH: You would, by that time but of course the war intervened from my entry and we stayed as fitter 2A’s of course but I got off and I took the easier route and managed to get onto aircrew. And but they wouldn’t let me, as soon as I finished my training, I volunteered for aircrew, but they wouldn’t release me until enough people, the war started by then but they wouldn’t release me to go onto aircrew duties until they had enough people in from, to be converted to trades, you know, as engineering trades and I could leave, so it took me nearly eighteen months from the time of being selected to being called up.
BW: So they needed enough people to be in the pool to replace you
NH: That’s right, that’s
BW: Because they could allow the engineers to move on.
NH: Yes
BW: [unclear]
NH: That’s right, yes.
BW: And what attracted you think to aircrew, was is, there simply more money, cause there was flying pay [unclear] or was it [unclear]?
NH: I wanted the glamour.
BW: Alright.
NH: A little bit it was there but I [laughs], I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
BW: I see.
NH: Yeah.
BW: And did that involve more tests and [unclear]?
NH: Not until you got onto, when I was eventually called up of course then by that time of course there the whole process was so huge that there are bottlenecks and so every stage it took time because you had to wait until you could move on to the next stage, the, either, whether held up training or something of that sort so, we start off at the ITW, which in my case was, well, first of all it started off in London, at the air crew receiving centre and we were all there, we live, we ate at the zoo, I remember,
BW: At London Zoo.
NH: At London Zoo, and lived in flats, in luxury flats in North West London and marched to the zoo for our meals.
BW: Right.
NH: But that, again, took a long time before we moved on and the next stage was to go on to the Initial Training Wing, where you did an eight week course and learned navigation and various other skills but there was a bottleneck there, I remember I went down to Brighton for a, just to occupy time, and eventually, although I’d been called up in November, November ’41, that’s right, and I was at Wick at the time when, as a fitter, on the, we were protecting the convoys coming into Liverpool but we’d been stationed at Stornoway on the Outer Hebrides,
BW: That’s where Wick is, is that right?
NH: Pardon?
BW: That’s where Wick is.
NH: No, Wick, no, Wick is on the north east coast.
BW: Ok.
NH: And now we moved over there with Hudsons, we had started with Ansons and changed over to Hudsons, when we moved up to Stornoway and then from Stornoway, we moved over to Wick. But whilst we were at Wick, I was called up for aircrew duties and that was in November ’41, I happened to be on leave at the time in Bournemouth so I got recalled from Bournemouth to Wick, which was to go back to London [laughs] to start my aircrew duties and as I say, then, we had, we hung around in Regent’s Park waiting for the next stage, well the first stage of training and that didn’t happen, this was in November ’41 and we didn’t get to Stratford until about the end of January, February ’42 and then we had this eight week course at Stratford learning navigation, doing drill, all RT and all the rest of it.
BW: So you travelled in a very short time to the length and breadth of the country cause you’ve gone from a short period of time in Brighton right up to the north of Scotland to work on aircraft protecting the convoys and then, across the other side of Scotland, then back down again, and called for [unclear] training
NH: Well, just go back a little bit, when I left, when I graduated from Halton, well, I graduated as a, what’s the right word, as an aircraftsman first class, normally I’d have an entry at, say, of a hundred, well take a hundred, apprentices leaving but ten would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, ten or fifteen would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, aircraftsmen first class, about sixty or so would pass out as aircraftsmen first class and the remainder would pass out as AC2 but the rate of pay was quite significant, a leading aircraftsman would get forty two schillings a week, which was a big rise from five and six pence,
BW: Yeah, absolutely.
NH: Yeah. So, I passed out an AC1 which is 31, 31 of 31 and six pence a week, which is quite good, I, [laughs].
BW: And was that more than you were earning in the bank previously?
NH: Oh, yes, oh yes, in the bank I was getting seventeen and six, I think it was, might have gonna up, to nearly a pound, but no, seventeen to six a week, yes,
BW: So you almost doubled
NH: No, I, and of course, as an apprentice, I’m only getting three schillings a week, for the first two weeks and then five and six pence for the last week, that’s the third week. And then when I passed out as an AC1, I would have jumped up to thirty-one and six pence a week, which is magnificent,
BW: I believe at some point during your early training, you caught pneumonia and had to be sort of
NH: Oh that was before, that was at the end of my training,
BW: Oh, I see.
NH: Yes, this was, the war had started October, November, I caught pneumonia almost [unclear] they had to, they called my mother to come up because they thought I wouldn’t live but M & B was the new drug which they’d produced and that saved my life I think because but always touch and go anyway, when I recovered and I came out, my entry had, the whole thing was telescoped, you see, did a three year course, when the war started, all sports afternoons were stopped, we worked longer hours, and the whole thing was telescoped from the three years to a much shorter one but so we were on that at the time that I went into hospital with pneumonia and when I came out, my entry had finished and they’d gone, so I was left on my own, they gave me some Christmas leave and when I came back, I just studied on my own for a few weeks and passed out on my own as an AC1. I probably had passed out as an AC2 [laughs]. So, I’ve been lucky that way.
BW: So, there was no parade for you then, unfortunately, they just allowed you
NH: No, I just, no.
BW: So you graduated [unclear]
NH: I went down to Thorney Island under 48 Squadron, which is at Coastal Command, we had Ansons then, as I said, and then we, as an AC1. Is it all getting a bit garbled for you?
BW: No, no, that’s perfectly fine. So, during your time at Thorney Island then, which is near Chichester,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You were still as a tradesman, you were an aircraftman
NH: That’s right
BW: First class
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was it like there, what sort of air, you said Ansons then, have other aircraft there too? [unclear] and Blenheims, would you work on them at all or?
NH: No, only Ansons.
BW: Ah, ok.
NH: Yeah. And of course we were there to protect the shipping coming up to Southampton and to the docks along the south coast but then, when the invasion of the low countries came, it was too dangerous and the shipping was moved up to Liverpool, Liverpool and Glasgow and so we followed the shipping up to Liverpool and we were stationed at Hooton Park.
BW: I see. So around the time of the Battle of Britain and when the invasion was looking imminent during the summer of 1940,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You and your squadron, 48 Squadron, actually moved up to Liverpool.
NH: To Liverpool and we were there for about a year I think before we moved up to, because then there were all bombed badly and the submarine menace became bigger and we moved, and so the shipping was moved further up into Glasgow and so we moved up to Stornoway,
BW: I see.
NH: And then to Wick. Don’t quite know why we did that, we were on Hudsons by that time.
BW: How did you find them to work on?
NH: Well of course [unclear] much, they’d hydraulics of course which you know, on the Anson it was a wind up undercarriage, took a hundred and twenty turns to get the wheels up, well of course there was much more hydraulics on the Hudsons, very modern by comparison with the Anson.
BW: And so, you mentioned earlier about having completed your trade training, you were called up for aircrew which is in November ‘41 thereabouts, did you apply to be a pilot or did you?
NH: Yes, I wanted to be a pilot, yeah, I wanted to be a glamourous pilot and go out with girls [laughs]
BW: [laughs] And what happened to enable the change [unclear]?
NH: Well you see that, everything, as I said, was taking so long with bottlenecks everywhere, they decided to change from being a two pilot crew to one pilot and introduced bomb aimers and bomb aimers very often failed pilots, [unclear] capable of getting an aircraft back perhaps in an emergency as the pilot was no longer capable, that was the, so, the some man crew then became a pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, engineer and two gunners, that’s a Halifax or Lancaster.
BW: Ok.
NH: And so then of course they had a business of what they called grading and so all of us who wanted to be pilots, we had to go to a grading school and fly Tiger Moths and be graded and although we went solo, I did a very poor final test so they graded me down, I’m afraid I messed it up, I made a mess of the spin, that sort of thing but so that was very disappointing but so they transferred me to being a navigator.
BW: I see.
NH: And others who were the same, were either navigators or bomb aimers did navigator or bomb aimer training.
BW: Ok. And so, until this stage you’ve been training on Tiger Moths
NH: Tiger Moths
BW: As a pilot
NH: Yeah
BW: But I believe you were sent abroad to Canada so you
NH: Well then, then of course I went to, yes, that’s right, I went to Rivers, near Winnipeg, went over on the Queen Elisabeth, just newly constructed, that was in, that was in September ’42, yes, September ’42, oh, because of the bottleneck we gone down to Eastbourne for further navigation, for navigation training, so we did a further navigation course down there, that was after we’d failed, we failed to become pilots and went down and became navigators, this is the start of our navigation course at Eastbourne, so did a few weeks there and then we moved across, up to, somewhere near Manchester, where we stayed there before we were shipped up to Glasgow to get onto the Queen Elisabeth.
BW: And what was it like going across to Canada?
NH: Oh, quite good, I mean, we were only a few thousand aircrew going across to, a mixture of pilots and navigators, most of the pilots went down south to Texas or somewhere like that and we went to a place called Mana, called Rivers in Manitoba, in the middle of Canada, about a hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg and so we were only going out, we were only about two or three thousand I think aircrew under training or going for training. Coming back, I, and I came back on the same boat, we landed in New York, then went to up to Moncton in Canada on the East Coast and then across to, had two or three weeks there, it’s all bottlenecks all the time before we were posted to Rivers at Manitoba, that took a three day rail journey from
BW: Wow.
NH: And we got there about the middle of September.
BW: So just in time before the winter set in.
NH: Just setting in, yes, a week or two later they froze, they sprayed a compound of water and that was the ice rink for the rest of the winter, yeah.
BW: So, did you get much flying in during that time?
NH: Oh yes, yes, yes, in Ansons again, bitterly cold because we had to do astro training was the big feature and we had to open the hatch and these pilots of course shuddered at the cold air coming in but we had to take our, take these, you know, all these [unclear] and stuff, fortunately in Canada, you know, you get these wonderful clear nights, and the stars and everything so visible, it was a, for doing astro navigation, it was ideal.
BW: So you had to
NH: But it was still to bloody cold.
BW: So you actually had to open the hatch mid flying in order to take reading the stars.
NH: Yeah, and take the reading, well, the stars you wanted, yeah. But navigation was simple in Canada because the nights were clear and the days were, cold and brisk, you know, you could see for miles, you could, you get airborne at Rivers, hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg, and of course you could see Winnipeg because it is, all the lights were still on in Canada
BW: No blackout.
NH: No. And there’s only a few towns there anyway and you knew exactly which town, by the size, so navigation was simple.
BW: What was life like there in general, did you manage to travel out or did you meet any Canadians, at least some aircrew were stationed off base or b&bs and things but presumably you [unclear]
NH: Oh no, we lived, oh no, we were right in the prairies, we just the camp,
BW: So just yourselves and
NH: Place called Brandon, was about twenty five miles away, [unclear] I never went there, once or twice, we did get down to Londa, to Minneapolis [unclear] at Christmas there over the Christmas period but we managed to work our way down there for a, for the Christmas break
BW: And did you stay
NH: Rather special
BW: And did you stay over in hotels and things and [unclear]
NH: No, we stayed with, while went to the US the United States organisation, you know, like the Red cross naffy or whatever but being American at that time was very well appointed, we had written to them before saying we are coming, and they phoned us out, we stayed with a professor, while he was away, on national service, he was a Lieutenant colonel American Air Force but he was a professor at Minneapolis University and we stayed with him, with his wife, five of us.
BW: And was that your crew that you went with then?
NH: No, not, we weren’t crewed up then, we were just five navigators under training.
BW: Ok. And from there you, I believe, you passed out as sergeant observer navigator
NH: Sergeant observer navigator, yes,
BW: You graduated while you were in Canada.
NH: That’s right, yes, came back to Moncton to wait for our journey home, which again was on the Queen Elisabeth from New York. And then back in Glasgow, by avoiding the U-boats, but because we were so fast, they couldn’t, they couldn’t get any nearer but both the Queen Mary and the Queen Elisabeth both scootered across the Atlantic, coming back it was very different than coming out, we brought all the American troops, about fifteen thousand American troops on board.
BW: So this is pretty much at the height of the Atlantic war, then, isn’t it? When the [unclear]
NH: Yes, this is, this would be March ’43 now and we are just beginning to get over the U-boat, we are just beginning to get control of the U-boat menace, it was in ’42 the U-boat menace was at its highest, and it was a serious problem, well still was but we, yeah, we are getting on top of it by the time I came back in ’43.
BW: And so from there you went to
NH: We went to Harrogate, we were all, Harrogate was the assembly point and we were all assembled, officers went into the Majestic and sergeants went into the Grand Hotel in Harrogate, do you know them?
BW: Yes, I’ve been
NH: And the Majestic
BW: I’ve been to one, yes.
NH: Yeah. So
BW: Very nice [unclear] hotels
NH: We didn’t mind that at all, this was March, we had a couple of weeks leave in Bournemouth and back and then we were kept hanging around again, waiting to go on to our onto the OTU, which is the next step in our training, operational training unit, and that took some time, I remember, in order to occupy us they sent us up to Perth, to a flying training school that flew Tiger Moths around the, the name of the river near Perth, do you know it? Tay, is it, Tay?
BW: Tay.
NH: Lovely, anyway, lovely week, I think it was only a week or ten days, just a way of keeping us amused, before we, eventually we did get to the operational training which was at Kinloss, in northern Scotland.
BW: And was that number 19 OTU, [unclear]
NH: I don’t remember the number, [unclear] on my log book. But it’s, yes, operational at Kinloss and we were on Whitleys, so we are on a different aeroplane now. And this will be, by the time we did that, it’s August, August ’43, so it’s already taken me from November ’41 and now we are in, at August ’43,I got my navigator’s brevy but I still haven’t got, I’m still not operationally trained, that we did on a Whitley.
BW: Right. So it’s taken you, as you say, approximately two years, they needed two years
NH: yeah.
BW: To get to that operational training unit.
NH: Yeah. That’s right, yeah. And that finished for about the end of October, beginning of November ’43,
BW: Ok.
NH: So I think it be the end of October, we were posted, we were crewed up there, that was the big feature and I, you all join up together, you look around and you see who you’d like to fly with. I joined up with a chap named, sergeant, he was a sergeant, Sergeant Wilkinson, we liked the look of one another I suppose, so he and I joined and that was the usual pattern, you and the pilot joined up and you skited around and gathered in the rest of the crew which at this stage we would be five, wireless operator, gunner and a gunner.
BW: And this I believe commonly took place in just a big hangar, they amalgamated all together
NH: No, that’s right, yes
BW: And they just left them
NH: Left us to sort ourselves out, yes, a funny system.
BW: And so, you crew up with Sergeant Wilkinson,
NH: Sergeant Wilkinson, yeah.
BW: And do you recall the names of the other crew members?
NH: No, I can’t. No, I’m afraid I can’t. Oh, George Dugray, yeah, a French Canadian, oh, that was later, no, he’s the bomb aimer, oh yes, he was there too. Did George Dugray? Anyway, he joined us on the next one, the heavy conversion unit, when we got on to the Halifaxes.
BW: So
NH: He was a French-Canadian bomb aimer
BW: So if you were five crewmen initially, what were going to be flying at that point when you initially met Wilkinson and Dugray?
NH: Well, we only knew that we would probably Halifaxes or Lancasters were most likely.
BW: I see.
NH: Well the possibility of a Mosquitoes if we were lucky.
BW: So, where were you when you were looking for your crew and when you were getting yourselves together, was this at Burne or was this elsewhere?
NH: Oh no, this was at the operational training unit at Kinloss
BW: Kinloss.
NH: At Kinloss,
BW: I see.
NH: Yes, that’s when you came together
BW: I see.
NH: And up to that time we’d all been navigators but as you know you are split up and you find your crew, so with them we flew as a crew then, pilot, navigator, did we have a bomb aimer? I suppose we did have Dugray as bomb aimer, wireless operator, not an engineer, gunner. That’s right, yes, that’ll be it. That’s the five, isn’t it? One gunner, engineer, no, one gunner, bomb aimer, navigator, pilot. And wireless operator. So then, then you had to do, you went through the whole, all the daylight flying, night flying and of course very different flying conditions in Kinloss in Scotland, the blackout and very few aids and it was a very difficult and hazardous training period and a lot collided into the mountains through inexperience cause that’s what we were, totally inexperienced and there was a lot of fatalities there. So, it wasn’t an easy time.
BW: What sort of aids were you working with as a navigator then at this point?
NH: I’d be twenty-one, twenty one.
BW: What sort of navigational aids or equipment were you using at this time?
NH: Oh, hardly any
BW: So was
NH: Radio, we could get the old radio bearing, navigation and that’s it
BW: Was it all dead reckoning
NH: Otherwise dead reckoning, yeah, and that was one of the troubles as where people, they got lost and they sended through cloud and hit the high ground.
BW: And roughly how long were you on the OTU?
NH: That’s about six to eight weeks, we went the end of August, it’ll be eight weeks and we finished round about the end of October, beginning of November.
BW: So, this is October, November ’43.
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. And then of course we still hadn’t finished, then we got to go to the heavy conversion unit, flying the sort of aeroplanes we were going to fly on operations, which in our case was the Halifax and that was when we were posted to Rufforth to a heavy conversion unit at Rufforth which is about four miles out of York.
BW: And you were onto Halifaxes at that point.
NH: Yeah.
BW: Did you acquire any more crew members at all [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, that’s where the engineer came, and the second gunner, that’s it. Yes, that’s right, Dugray, he did join us up at [unclear] and so were five when we went down to Rufforth and then we were joined by the other, by the mid upper gunner and by the flight engineer.
BW: Do you happen to recall their names at all or?
NH: No. I can’t.
BW: That’s alright.
NH: I can’t. Hardly anyone finished, I was the only one that finished the op, a full round of ops, they all disappeared one way or another. Well, you see, Wilkinson who I became, who became a good friend, splendid, a good looking chap too, and he became, he was going to go to university, he, when we finished our training at Rufforth, preparing to go to a squadron, we had finally finished our training and now we are fully qualified but it was quite usual for pilots to go on an experience exercise and he was sent on to do a run on on an operation on Berlin and that was the end of him and so we didn’t have a pilot and that kept us waiting again.
BW: And do you recall who eventually came
NH: Yes, I’ve got his name, what’s his name? Oh Gosh, my memory’s gone, I’m afraid,
BW: That’s alright.
NH: It’s in the logbook, he was a flying officer, so now as a sergeant I was being teamed up with a flying officer, who’d been posted from Hemswell. Well, Hemswell was a station, was a Bomber Command station in 4 Group and it achieved a terrible reputation for not pressing on to the target and Harris, the Bomber Command chief came up, called them all sorts of names, and closed the station down, Hemswell, everybody was posted, and I got one of those.
BW: I see.
NH: And so we did our, we did [unclear] game, so we had to train together again on the Halifax from Rufforth and that took us until well after Christmas, during which time I met my wife, who, the girl that became my wife.
BW: And how did you meet her?
NH: Oh, I met her at a dance, and she’d gone with, oh, she had arranged to meet a girlfriend at the Grey Rooms in York, I don’t know if you know it.
BW: No, I don’t.
NH: Oh, it was a lovely place, oh, we all got there, all the, York was full of aircrew, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians particularly and Brits and a few Americans and of course there wasn’t much in York then, everything was closed down but there was a lovely dance place, the Dugrey Rooms, and that’s where we all went, to meet girls and that’s where I met my wife.
US: Sorry, after Williams your pilot, you then had Houston.
NH: Williams, Williams, that’s right. Flying officer Williams, he was the one who was, came to Rufforth from Hemswell we, I having lost Wilkinson and what you say the name was?
US: Williams.
NH: Williams. Oh, he had, I eventually found out he was called Turnback Williams, we are not going to the target? I’ll on that, busy
BW: Part of the reason Harris talk to these guys.
NH: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right so I did all my, I completed all my training with, as a, with him, with Williams, and from there at the end from February 44, now is it? End of 44, yes, Paul Williams of course, when he was sent out on his second Dickey for experience, that was at the height of the Berlin raids, and the losses were huge, we’d been, we’d been on those of course, if he’d come back from his, from his trip of experience
BW: Second Dickey means like a second pilot
NH: Second pilot experience, yes, yeah, so he didn’t come back and I wrote to his father and I got a nice, I might have it somewhere a nice letter from his father who is a stockbroker in London and anyway so I saw that with Williams then we completed another bit of training before we went off to the squadron which I say was about the end of February ’44.
BW: And this was the newly formed 578 Squadron.
NH: And that was the newly formed, yes, they were only formed about three months before
BW: And they were specifically
NH: From Snaith.
BW: And they were specifically flying Halifaxes Mark III as they were one of the first
NH: I was jolly lucky to get on one of those cause it was just as good as the Lancaster, radial engines Bristol and they could get up to the required height and carry a similar amount of bombs, splendid.
BW: So, your first sortie with 578 would be in February as you say,
NH: In March
BW: In March
NH: Then in February, then again the training was so much, I mean they wouldn’t escort, again got ourselves familiarised with the Mark Iii and done a couple of training runs before we were then considered to be operational and that took place in March and it was during that time the Nuremberg raid and of the pilots at Burton on the squadron, he got a posthumous VC.
BW: Did you know him?
NH: No, I didn’t know him, no, no, I’d only been on the squadron a week or so but I didn’t know him, I know, no, I didn’t know him, I didn’t really know him, I didn’t know anybody really, we kept to ourselves a
BW: You tend to associate with your crew if anything
NH: Just with the crew, didn’t mix much with anybody else, you stuck pretty close into the crew and as I had a girlfriend now in York I scuttled off there [laughs].
BW: So, it was looking pretty serious with your girlfriend
NH: Already started to look serious, yes, yeah, we got engaged in April, after I’d done about five operations. I took her down to Bournemouth to meet my family.
BW: Right. And so, what were the accommodation facilities like at Burne, this is where your 578 Squadron
NH: They weren’t bad, it was a brand-new place, you know, all Hudson.
BW: Were you billeted with the crew?
NH: Oh yes, yes, I, we were in huts of course but as sergeants we had little privileges, the sergeant’s mess and that sort of thing, reasonably comfortable of course, we were well-fed as aircrew, the local people, we always had eggs before we went and that sort of thing, things which people couldn’t get on the ration we had plenty of, plenty of chips too cause at the age of twenty one, twenty two I [unclear] of chips [laughs]
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: And were you the only crew in the billet sometimes or there were two crews in there or?
NH: I think we were the only one, as far as I can remember we were the only one.
BW: And at this time there was a CO in charge
NH: Yes.
BW: Wing Commander Wilkey Wilkinson, do you recall him?
NH: Oh, I do very well, yes, he’s one chap I do remember, and I’ve never been a hero worshiper but I would think I would put him into that category. Marvellous chap, good looking, tall, great sense of humour, great, young, handsome, had every quality, but you knew that if Wilkinson was flying it was gonna be a bad one, he’d only, he wouldn’t take the easy ones, he’d always took the bad ones, great leader, he was on his second tour, too, very nice chap too because then of course I, to going on a bit further, I was with Williams, I did two operations with Williams, I didn’t remember what it was I didn’t like but I didn’t like it, I went to see Williams in great trepidation but I didn’t know what Williams I never spoke to Wing Commanders, they were far too elevated, but I went to see him and so I did my night flying with Williams so I said, we must have talked a bit, I can’t remember, so he said right leave with me, I’ll fix you up with somebody else and I went then to, I was teamed up then with Houston, Jock Houston, and we stayed together all the time, finished together, got commissioned together, got a DFC together.
BW: And so, you when you went from your crew flying with Williams at this point
NH: Yes
BH: To make the change to another crew
NH: Yes, the others all, I [unclear], yes, yeah.
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: [unclear]
NH: Well, Williams did finish his tour, yes, but I don’t know who he flew, he finished the tour.
BW: The other members of your crew didn’t pick up your sense of
NH: No,
BW: [unclear]
NH: Not as far as I know. No, no.
BW: And you mentioned about Wilkinson, there’s a description here which seems to chime with what you commented about it and it’s only a short description if I can read it to you, it says, he was described by those who knew him as a tall, loose end fellow, the first impression that a stranger might have of him was that he was rather irresponsible, care-free, vague individual, but on closer acquaintance he would seem that he had one of the kindest, gentlest and most sympathetic
NH: Oh, I think that was pretty accurate
BW: Could possess
NH: Yes
BW: He had the knack of inspiring confidence in his crew, when flying I can’t remember anything disturbing him, he was huge with his men
NH: No, no. There’s my little story in that book he’s flying a strange aircraft, an unusual aircraft and he’s got an army man, and army major alongside him but oh, they couldn’t get the flaps down and the army major says to Wilkinson, can you fly this without flaps? He said, well, you are just about to find out [laughs].
BW: And it says of him because he was awarded a DSO he said, he inspired powers of leadership, great skill and determination, qualities which have earned him much success, his devoted squadron commander, his great drive and tactical abilities used in large measure to the high standard of operation to assume the squadron
NH: Yeah, he did, yeah, briefing were always made a pleasure by him being here, he made them quite different, we quite looked forward to his briefing
BW: And when you, you mentioned about him when he going out on a bad raid, were you aware that if he briefed it, it was gonna be a bad one or was it the case [unclear] the raids?
NH: No, not particularly, no, but you knew that if he was on it, it wouldn’t be an easy one.
BW: But he, he always gave the briefing whatever the raid was.
NH: Oh yes, oh yes.
BW: There was only a few at the time
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. Yes, I remember his briefing, that is one thing I do remember quite well. Always something to look forward to. I remember a young WAAF officer looking at him I think, Gosh, I’d like a young woman to look at me like that [laughs].
BW: So, by now you are on the early part of your tour and initially it looks like you got operations mainly over Germany, are there any other particular raids through March that you recall?
NH: No, they were all a great big jumble mainly, I, oh, there is one when we lost a lot of aeroplanes.
BW: That night be Nuremberg presumably.
NH: No, not Nuremberg, I didn’t do Nuremberg, there is some, somewhere like, oh, retro memory for names, the size of the Ruhr, a fairly long trip and I remember coming out, they’d briefed us to come down from the target area right down to five thousand feet, it seemed odd tactic, I remember going up with another navigator to Nuremberg, I don’t like this and he said, I wish we weren’t doing this one and he didn’t come back. We lost six that night. So, I don’t know what that tactic was all about.
BW: So, at this time, when you
NH: Oh, I’m trying to remember the name, that, Karlsruhe,
BW: Karlsruhe. And so at this when you were doing operations, you’ve gone from the billet to the ops room to be briefed, you’ve had your briefing, just talk me through then what you would do from there in terms of boarding the aircraft, the checks you would do, what sort of things would be going on then.
NH: Well, we had our own, quite a lot of instruments, we had Gee for example, the bomb aimer would have his stuff but I would have all my charts, gee charts, ordinary plotting charts, what were they called? [unclear] and then the Gee charts, all rather luminous, astro navigation, [unclear] anyway, waste of time most of the time but always had to do it, sextant, all the stuff had to be checked and so, you know, that took up quite a long time, you did that some with the pilot, checking the routes and marking off certain points on it.
BW: And H2S was coming in at this time.
NH: Oh, we didn’t have H2S.
BW: That wasn’t on your aircraft.
NH: We didn’t have it, no,
BW: And was the Gee equipment located right where you position were?
NH: Right in front like that
BW: Ok.
NH: Had a table, table, yeah.
BW: In some aircraft [unclear] different.
NH: And that, that was an incredibly, wonderful instrument I had, of course the Germans were jamming it as much as they could and you’d lose it, you’d, what it did help you to do was to get an accurate wind, cause that’s so incredibly important, if you got an accurate wind then doing jet reconning isn’t going to be too bad and you could get Gee fixes right up to inside the Dutch coast so it gave you a whole string of fixes and a whole comprehension of the wind you know was established by the time you got there. And then, the same thing coming back, you, I’d have, I’d be searching madly to get the signals eventually appearing and it’s marvellous when the, when they just started to appear on your radar screen, and you’d, and you’d get a proper fix, because when you tried astro navigation or even wireless, there were so many errors involved.
BW: Was your pilot good in terms of sticking to the course? Was he [unclear] following your instructions?
NH: Oh yes, of course, oh yes, oh yes, very good, you know, if I take an astro shot, they had to keep very steady because you have a steady platform to get, I don’t know if you know about sextant?
BW: Yes.
NH: You know, yes, getting the star dive into the bubble and holding it there, if the plane lurches up you’ve lost the, it, you’ve gotta get it back again,
BW: And so, you found that you worked quite well presumably [unclear]
NH: Oh, very well, with Houston, terrible memory for names, I even forget my own sometimes
BW: What was it like actually in the environment of a Halifax then, was it pretty roomy, has a reputation of being a fairly roomy aircraft.
NH: Not bad, not bad really
BW: [unclear]
NH: No, no, not when you compare it [unclear] like the Whitley
BW: And I believe the heating, say for example in a Lancaster kept the wireless operator and the navigator pretty warm
NH: yes
BW: Is it similar in a Halifax or not?
NH: Ah, yeah, pretty I was never cold, I never remember being cold,
BW: How did it feel in your flying kit? Was it [unclear]
NH: I didn’t wear much, had a Mae West on, and a parachute harness of course and that was, oh, and an aircrew sweater, and that was about it, don’t [unclear], I think flying boots, yes, yeah, flying boots, cause you could if you were, if you bailed out and you landed, you could cut the top off and they looked like ordinary shoes, ordinary boots
BW: And so you were pretty comfortable in the interior of the Halifax.
NH: Oh, pretty, reasonably comfortable.
BW:
NH: Yes, yes, I had a good desk and all the instruments that I needed. Wind thing, what you call, wind setting, forgot what they called, wind, don’t they use that much, you had to be [unclear] sort of view the sea at eighteen thousand feet, you can’t do that
BW: Did you find that you had to use oxygen much if you were above [unclear] feet or?
NH: Oh yes, about ten thousand feet, most certainly.
BW: Were most of your ops above that [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, as soon as you get to, well pretty well from five thousand feet or even before, I can’t remember exactly but you certainly wouldn’t want to be [unclear] oxygen above ten thousand feet
BW: You noted as well one particular date you were in the air on the night of D-Day.
NH: Yes, yes.
BW: Do you recall the briefing for D-Day primarily?
NH: No
BW: Were you aware that is was gonna be the start of the invasion?
NH: Well, we were all suspicious but nobody knew anything definite but of course so much everybody knew that D-Day was gonna come soon but that anything definite not until we, well, we were, the target was an easy one on the Northern Coast of France, just inside, gun batteries of some sort, and we bombed that but as we are coming back, and as we are coming back near [unclear], both the gunners shouted out, all the shipping that they could see and so all this shipping was just on the invasion, that was June the 6th.
BW: What sort of time would that be, was it early morning?
NH: About three or four o’clock in the morning. It be in the logbook there. Be about that time.
BW: The gun battery that you mentioned, was it Mont Fleury,
NH: Right.
BW: And that was covering Gold Beach, which was one of the British invasion beaches.
NH: Yeah, yeah. Cause we did two or three, Montgomery, that was later on, after the armies had got established but got held up by the Germans and Montgomery requested Bomber Command to drop their bombs on the German, where the Germans were and we did that, we got a letter of thanks from him because that’s form where the armies could move on.
BW: Were you made aware of the results of the bombing on that particular D-Day mission?
NH: Not really, no, not until we got this letter from Montgomery thanking us for, yeah, I can’t think that we got any particular, no. Of course, we were taking photographs all the time, and we were given some sort of marking for the accuracy and the standard and that was posted up on the boards.
BW: Did it feel like a competition, where you
NH: A little bit like that, oh yes, a little bit like that. Bomb aimers, you know, we, in that book [unclear] claims that we were used for these targets because we had a bomb aiming accuracy record.
BW: Quite [unclear]
NH: No, but, I think that, what is, my God, the insignia of the squadron has got
US: An arrow
NH: A arrow, isn’t it? A bomb aiming accuracy or something is called.
US: Just called accuracy.
NH: Accuracy, yes, yes. So we had this supposedly reputation. I don’t know [laughs].
BW: Well, the gun position that was there at Gold Beach was actually a target given to the Green Howards, the army regiment that was to assault that.
NH: Oh, was that? Oh, was it?
BW: And that particular action was where sergeant major Stanley Hollis got the VC, [unclear] boxes near that battery. So coincidentally the raid that you were on happened to be the target which sergeant major Hollis was the only VC on D-Day.
NH: That’s interesting too. Yeah, yeah.
BW: There was only one [unclear] I can see on that raid and that was a Halifax flown by squadron leader Watson
NH: OH yes.
BW: Who was shot down
NH: yes.
BW: [unclear]
NH: I think I’ve seen the name but I don’t know him. No, no.
BW: So, at this time during April, May, June, most of your targets are in France
NH: Yes
BW: With the idea of supporting D-Day [unclear]
NH: Yeah, D-Day the invasion, yes, yes,
BW: And that continues
NH: [unclear] targets of course, by comparison with the Ruhr and Berlin
BW: And by easy that I assume that they were lighter, more lightly defended, is that right?
NH: Not so much that they’re but quicklier have a long, the big thing somewhere like Nuremberg or Berlin, even if you got to, you had a long trail back to UK and the German fighters knew that and would wait for the trail of bombers coming out of the target and shooting them out then but so and they had a long time to do it whereas going to somewhere Paris or somewhere like that, they didn’t have that length of time to do it.
BW: did you encounter many fighters that you [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t remember, well, I think the most famous of course was the concentration, I did a daylight on the Ruhr in September and then you saw the concentration, what a concentration of bombers looked like cause we flew at night and we didn’t see how it really looked. But on this occasion we flew daylight to the Ruhr in September and I flew with a strange crew, which is slightly unsettling, their navigator had gone sick or something, and but then you saw aircraft colliding and of course you saw all the bombs dropping from other aircraft dropping so, you know, getting so close to releasing their bombs on you and the gunners would be shouting out, you know, he’s right over, he’s right over us now, and quite often it did happen that bombs from one aircraft hit another one, underneath.
BW: Did it happen on that occasion when you were?
NH: No, no, I never saw it actually happen,
BW: Just [unclear].
NH: No, I did, I did see aircraft, the other thing was collisions, when you got several hundred aircraft, well, at nighttime you don’t know what has happened, whether there’s a collision or whether they’re being shot by ack-ack, but at daylight you could see and I did see a collision, two aircraft hitting one another,
BW: And what, how could you describe what [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t, we turned away and it was gone but didn’t see anybody come out.
BW: And so during [unclear]
NH: No explosion, that’s all.
BW: And so, during the raid on Stuttgart, during the daylight, could you see, did you get a chance to see clearly the formation? The bomber formation?
NH: Oh, not really, no, you know, of course you know that they are at night because you get into their slipstream, so you know and that’s what you want, of course you want to be close, you don’t want to be isolated that’s when they can pick you off, the whole object of flying in a gaggle or stream was to protect one another with your, what’s the stuff? Window and, you know, confuse the enemy defenses radar so you were conscious at nighttime, but you didn’t see the full horror of it.
BW: And what was your impression during the daylight raid?
NH: Well, I thought, how the hell can you get through that lot? Approaching the Ruhr, this is a lovely September afternoon and you could see the smoke hovering over the Ruhr from such a long way away, I got a feeling we could see it almost from the Dutch coast, and then you think, then of course within the smoke, which is just the puffs of smoke from the ack-ack, you could see the brusts of the showers, well, there’s no penetration, you cannot penetrate that lost, but looks, it probably looks worst than it really is.
BW: In each case your pilot kept on, there was no consideration of turning back [unclear] target?
NH: Oh no, no, but no, no, we were, I think we were pretty that way, we did what we had to do, and although it is nerve-racking when the bomb aimer is insistent on, you know, my God, why doesn’t he press the bloody button? It was he said, bomb’s gone, yeah, that we could turn away.
BW: Were there any occasions where you had to make a second run over the target or not?
NH: Not exactly the, I ‘m not quite sure but I do know that we’ve been approaching the target and we’ve been told to hold off, the Pathfinder, the master bomber is directing us from underneath, usually in something like a Mosquito and he is calling us by our codename whatever, main force, main force, whatever the code, and he said and he’d be telling us, the bomb, overshoot the red TI’s or bomb the green markers or in one case he couldn’t tell because of the smoke and he couldn’t get accurate and he told the whole force to orbit, that was a nasty experience too,
BW: And the whole force at this stage [unclear]
NH: Would have to turn and wait and come in again until he could give the instructions on which markers to attack, they were of course people like, who has got the VC?
BW: Cheshire?
NH: Cheshire, yeah. Incredible people they were. They would stay, I mean, they would stay on the target for the whole time, going round and round, giving the directions to the main force, and asking for new TI’s or something like that if he wanted it.
BW: So, moving on from the D-Day operations, the squadron was then tasked with hitting the V-Weapon sites
NH: Yes, we, those were fairly easy targets, just inside the Dutch and French coast, yeah. We [unclear] several of those, three or four of those.
BW: Do you recall much about what was explained to you about the targets, we know now that they were being [unclear], did you know that?
NH: I don’t think so, I can’t remember, no, I just know that they were, well eventually of course when the flying bombs came up cause they came up, they came off fairly earlier, in was about August wasn’t it? July, August? Well, after, well then we knew them, that sort, they were that sort of targets, not until they, they’d actually arrived.
BW: So, from there through July and August, I think in total you flew thirty-nine operations, right?
NH: Thirty-nine altogether, yes. And of course the normal operation, prior to that., had ben thirty but because we were getting these easy French targets, they made us do thirty nine. And I, when they did say you’re finished, I was quite surprised, I’d thought they’d keep me I wasn’t all that bothered, I was getting used to it and it think sorry there won’t be an end you just carry on to the end and I accepted that I think.
BW: So you would have gone on for the duration of the war.
NH: Yes, I was slightly surprised when they said, you can stop and get.
BW: And what happened at that point, how was it explained to you your tour would end? What happened [unclear]?
NH: No explanation, I was just told that I would be posted on a certain day to in this case to Marston Moor as an instructor. But of course before that I’d been commissioned, Jock Houston and myself both got commissioned and we both got and then shortly after that we both got DFCs. Oh, we got that after I left the squadron, we got them afterwards, we were commissioned before we left the squadron, about a month or so before and then we got the DFC about a month or so after we left the squadron.
BW: And did you go to the palace to receive the DCF [unclear]?
NH: No, it came in the post, it came in the post with a letter from King George, signed by King George and that was stolen, we had a burglary and some bastard stole it, including the letter which was in some respect more important than the DFC. I got the DFC changed
BW: And that was soon after, that was soon after you’d been awarded it, it happened or was it
NH: No, no, it happened, oh, about twenty years ago.
BW: So still, right, still, as recently as that.
NH: Yeah, but we were in Muscat in Oman and this burglary happened whilst we were away.
BW: But you managed to get a replacement for
NH: I got a replacement, yes, they charged me a hundred pounds for it but it’s not quite the same cause I haven’t got the letter from King George.
BW: A shame. And so how was your relationship at this point with your girlfriend, cause you’ve been on pos, a pretty intense period through [unclear].
NH: Oh, well, every, you see, I suppose, in some respects I missed out a bit, I was very friendly with Jock but the other I, I went and had a beer occasionally with them but I was so eager, I was so wrapped up with Dorothy that every opportunity, I just speared off into York and I didn’t spend much time on the squadron but I, I used to take my inflight rations, because we got chocolate and chewing gum and other things and I couldn’t eat them, I was too frightened to eat them, and so I’d take them into York ands give them to her, I ran up to her office, which is on the fourth story of the LNER headquarters building in York and bang on her door and give her my inflight rations, sweets and chocolate mostly cause these things were rationed at that time.
BW: And that must have made your visits special for her.
NH: Yeah [laughs].
BW: [unclear]
NH: Yeah. Well if I wasn’t flying that night, I’d rush into York and rush up and tell her I’d be there and wait for, meet her after she left work.
BW: At what stage during the day would you find out whether or not you were on ops or not?
NH: Well, usually in the morning, you round about, just round about midday as I remember you’d know whether you’d go and operate that night or not. I do remember one occasion when we, we thought we were going to operate and that was when the flight engineer we’d, it was in June cause its, the nights were brighter, I think we were due for a take-off about ten o’clock and it was getting dusk and as usual everything goes very quiet, you wait for the start-up pistol and all engines would then start revving up, start the engines up and revving up, make a crescendo of noise of course when you’ve got sixteen or eighteen four-engines, all going and on this occasion there is always a little pause, you see you check your aircraft, you check everything and then you sort of hang around for a few minutes, I was there waiting for the [unclear] pistol, signal to get in and start up and on this occasion the flight engineer, we’d done about fourteen trips, he said, I’m not going tonight, and he wouldn’t, he said he wasn’t going, so of course the tower had to be informed that we weren’t, we had a crew deficiency and everybody came out then, the CO and the flight engineer leader and the medical officer and they took him to the rear engine to talk to him and took him off and we thought, well, by this time all the other aircraft had started up and are travelling round the peri-track looking at us curiously wondering what, why we hadn’t started up and we are waving them to say, well, clear off, we’re not going but then the engineer nearly came rushing out saying I’m [unclear] [laughs] so we had a start-up and all we did like that.
BW: So you then got, were you having to get back in the aircraft at this point?
NH: Oh, of course, yes. And off we had to go but then we were Tail End Charlies and that’s another thing you don’t like you don’t wanna be amongst the gaggle.
BW: And so you, how did you feel being at the back of the bomber stream then?
NH: Well, I suppose we must have made it up, you know, put a bit [laughs] more throttle on and we, I think we reached them in the end because what you do, you assemble at same point or something like that, that’s the usual thing, the squadrons all take off from the various aerodromes, say in Yorkshire and Spurn Point was a favorite assembly point and you’d set off from there, which there is no formation, you just keep in the stream, and so of course by the time the assembly had taken place and they had set off, we were catching up.
BW: How did you feel during the flight having had [unclear]?
NH: I didn’t like it, I didn’t like it [laughs] I [unclear] much more nervous, well, I’ve always felt nervous but felt a lot more nervous that night and that’s a clear memory of one flight I do have, yeah.
BW: You mention that just feeling nervous and feeling that you could have your inflight rations when you were airborne, you managed to overcome that, did you [unclear].
NH: [unclear] do it, no, chewing gum, I had the chewing gum but didn’t need anything else, coffee, I’d have, I’d drink the coffee and eat and the chewing gum but I was too frightened to eat anything else [laughs]. I waited for my eggs and bacon, egg and chips like got back.
BW: Did you recall the rest of the crew felt in a similar way?
NH: I think they felt similar, fairly similar, yeah, I think so, I think we all felt pretty much the same.
BW: Did you ever talk about it?
NH: No, no, that’s a strange thing, it’s only in the last few years that I’ve ever talked about it, Dorothy never wanted me to hear me talk about it and I never did, I never thought about it and it’s only sort of more or less than she died that I’ve given it any thought.
BW: And at the time did you talk to your crew mates or did they tell you how it felt on the operations night?
NH: No, never talked about it, never, never, no, it’s a, I look back a lot of it and I think, this is a bit strange really cause I think about it a lot now and talk about it quite a bit but for thirty or forty years never thought about it, hardly, hardly, [unclear].
BW: And how does it feel now, reflecting back on that time?
NH: Well, it’s a different time, you know, it’s something which I didn’t, something which is very different to anything, but you know it’s an experience which you’d never imagined that you’d go through really.
BW: And you mentioned now at this stage of your career that you’d come off operations, you were then posted to Marston Moor as instructor.
NH: That’s right, yes, for six months, six months tour and then we got married in June and when I came back from my honeymoon, I was told I was posted back onto operations to go with Tiger Force against Japan.
BW: And is this June ’45?
NH: This is June ’45, the war, the European war had ended and that ended in May, was it May? Yeah, is it.
BW: That’s right.
NH: Yeah and I’ve finished my six months rest and so I was posted back onto a second tour which happened to be with, what I called the force?
BW: Tiger Force.
NH: Sorry?
US: Tiger.
NH: Tiger Force, with Tiger Force. Yes, [unclear] to, and we were going to do something similar to what we did against Germany. That was, but that was on Lincolns, was it Lancasters or Lincolns? Wasn’t Halifaxes? Either Lancasters or Lincolns, I got the feeling it was Lincolns. Cause then after the war I flew in, I was on 50 Squadron which was at Waddington.
BW: At Waddington.
NH: Yeah, that was after the war, that was in 1950, talking about 1947, ’48, no, ’48.
BW: So you were earmarked to go with Tiger Force out to the Far East
NH: Yeah. We did
BW: Did that happen?
NH: yeah. No, no, we did our training and we didn’t have to do much, it was, you know, becoming acquainted, with a slightly new aircraft and we were all experienced people, all done our tour of ops, all being instructors so we are a very experienced crew we did, we just did a little bit of familiarization and we are ready to go and then they dropped the atom bomb so we didn’t go and we all got split up then.
BW: So you were all prepared to go and then you continued your post first to a training as a crew
NH: Yes
BW: Together and I guess you were all I guess earmarked at the same to go to the Far East but
NH: Yeah
BW: But you said it didn’t happen
NH: No, and we would have gone of course if they hadn’t dropped the atom bombs.
BW: And so, just talk us through your subsequent career which I believe involved transport command, fighter command
NH: Well of course [unclear] lot of funny little jobs like on a recruiting center and I was eventually had a sort of a career posting as an instructor at the RAF [unclear] at Cosford which was, if I’d played my cards right, would have done me some good, but I didn’t, I volunteered for flying, I have tried to go back on flying and they posted me back on transport command, but then Dorothy was expecting her babies and after a while I asked much to their irritation I think and it never did me any good, they posted me back to Bomber Command.
BW: And where did you get posted to?
NH: To, well, first of all I did a conversion, I became a navigator, bomb aimer, I did a bomb aiming course at Lindholme, near Doncaster and then from there I was posted to 50 Squadron at Waddington and that was when Dorothy had her babies, twins, and we all moved into quarters at Waddington and I became adjutant to 50 Squadron and my Co’s a man named Peach and that was a most enjoyable experience, I really enjoyed that time, we flew Lincolns.
BW: I was going to ask actually because at this time Jet aircraft are becoming more widely [unclear].
NH: [unclear] was just coming into service, yes, in Bomber Command.
BW: Did you get a chance to fly in it?
NH: No, I didn’t. No, no.
BW: And so what happened after that, were you involved at all in the Berlin airlift for example or not?
NH: No, because, as I say, I would have been if I stayed on transport command, that’s where I didn’t do myself any good by asking for this, but I didn’t know that Berlin airlift, I would have I wish I could have done that now but I got this request answered and was posted to 50 to Bomber Command but I made a mistake though.
BW: And at what stage did you become flight controller?
NH: Well, this is a, from Waddington I was posted to Scampton as an instructor, again I wish I’d protested and I and stayed on longer but I, we were posted to Scampton, as an instructor and then I hadn’t been offered a permanent commission but they did offer me a restricted permanent commission but it had to be either in the air traffic control branch or the fighter control branch, so I chose the fighter control branch, I wish I, somehow I wish I could afford that more and stay, and let me stay on aircrew and I think I’d have prospered more so then I, I did the course on fighter control and yeah that’s and from there I was posted to Patrington, how do we call those units? Fighter control unit.
BW: And this was at Patrington?
NH: Patrington, yeah.
BW: Patrington.
NH: In East Yorkshire.
BW: Ok.
NH: And then I went from, from there I became training officer and that was a nice post I became training officer to the Hull fighter control unit, [unclear] unit, based at Sutton, that was most enjoyable.
BW: What did you like about it?
NH: Well, I was my own boss, I was both adjutant for a long while, was adjutant and training officer, I had the use of the staff car, say I was my own boss, we had a nice house in Withernsea, no, not in Withernsea, in
US: Wasn’t Cottingham?
NH: Cottingham. In Cottingham, yeah. Nice house in Cottingham, we had some pleasant friends in the village and that was a most enjoyable time, I was very, I became very popular with the people, with the auxiliary people who were of course all civilians but I enjoyed their company I got on well with them so that was quite a nice [unclear], from there so I did a full tour there and then we were posted to Germany doing, well doing an operational job, you know, fighter control unit first of all at [unclear] and then at [unclear].
BW: And that I suppose saw you through to, through the Sixties and
NH: Yeah, and right up until
BW: The Seventies
NH: Yes, I did a year in Borneo on my own and joined the confrontation, nobody knows about that, do they? When we fought the Indonesians I’d, of course that was a year what they called an unaccompanied tour, we were based on a little island called Labuan on the north coast of Borneo, which is enjoyable up to a point but I didn’t like being separated all that time from the family.
BW: What sort of things were you doing out there?
NH: Oh well, the Indonesians were trying to control the whole of Borneo and they were claiming it but we said no, the northern part, including, what’s the oil rich place? Begins with a b. Brunei. Kuching and, that’s Kalimantan and then, we said, no, that all belongs to Malaysia, Malaysian federation which at that time includes Singapore but the Indonesians wanted the whole of Borneo as part of the Indonesia so we said, no, you can’t have it, this is all, so we had a four year war, we didn’t call it a war, we called it a confrontation.
BW: Is this the Malaysian insurgency?
NH: Yeah. Yeah, well, it is an insurgency, but of course Singapore was part of it and Malaysia so we eventually Indonesia gave up and accepted the status quo as we said it should be and we had Javelins at that time so we were controlling Javelins along the border, which was way undefined, you couldn’t and of course we had Gurkas out there and Indonesians were scared stiff of them and it was good jungle warfare, very good for anybody who wanted an army career it was ideal training, not too many casualties, a couple of hundred or so were killed, but we had, but we have radar jamming, Lincolns, not Lincolns, Hastings, we had Hastings out there doing our radar jamming and we controlled the Javelins, we had our Javelins which would come onto the island and jet airborne wherever we saw anything that might be a useful target. So I commanded that little unit, I had about sixty or seventy men and all radar equipment, that sort of little encampment of my own, was quite nice and six officers, and seventy men and we had a marvelous time, laughed like anything, all the time, oh yeah, drank a lot, we drank the hell of a lot. Dorothy never stopped saying how shocked she was [laughs] [unclear].
BW: And so after late Fifties through the Sixties
NH: Yes, that’s the Mid Sixties, the confrontation finished in ’66, well, that’s when I came back, I came back in June ’66, and the confrontation stopped just after that and then I came back to, oh, Scotland again, to, up to Buchan, is it Buchan?
US: Peterhead, yeah.
NH: Peterhead, yeah. Peter, yeah, Peterhead, Buchan. Onto a, well, there we are looking at, we are looking after, looking at Russian aircraft, that was the interesting part there was watching for the Bisons and what not coming out of the Russian bases up at, you know, beyond.
BW: Beyond Murmansk and.
NH: Beyond Murmansk, yeah. They’d come out into the Atlantic, they’d be picked up by the Norwegian radar and we would [unclear] them then to come down between the Iceland gap and the
BW: Faroe islands.
NH: Faroe islands, Shetlands, my memory is terrible, anyway we were waiting for them to come through, past the Iceland gap and they’d go out into the Atlantic while we had a flight of, what were they in those days, not the Javelins, what was after the Javelins? Hunters, Hunters? What were the ones before the Lightning? No, it was the Lightnings, the Lightnings, of course it was. Yeah, the Lightnings, we had Lightnings up at Kinloss, or Lossiemouth? Lossiemouth, they were up there on the and the Americans had Phantoms in Iceland so we would scramble when we, as soon as we saw these coming, being handed over, they were handed over to us by the Norwegians, we probably couldn’t see them then but then when we knew they were there and eventually they would appear on our radar and certain time after that we would scramble the fighters from Lossiemouth and the Phantoms from Reykjavik and at first the Lightnings didn’t have the range to get to them and very frustratingly they would turn back because of lack of fuel, the Phantoms would come on and make the interception and then come onto Scotland and land, but then when the Lightning Mark VI came in, we could make the interception properly and return. But that was quite interesting for a while because we also had radar up on top of the Faroes, right on top, no, not the Faroes, the Shetlands, right up on the top island, Saxa Vord, that’s, there’s a radar station up there, so there, that was a bit of an interest and then I was finally posted back to Germany and that, did my final tour in Germany on a NATO, on a NATO post. We had a German commandant then, Brigadier, German, he was, by that time the Germans had bene reconstituted but we had control of the fighter element, the Germans weren’t allowed to control, we were [unclear] of course for, to intercept the Russians in case there was any sort of attack but we had, but they had to have RAF controllers out there, the Germans, under all their constitutional rules weren’t allowed to do this so although they provided all the manning for it, we did the actual operating of the stand-by fighters, what did we have then? Lightnings, did we? Lightnings, yes, Lightnings, and they were at places like Laarbruch, Bruggen and somewhere else, there were three, Gutersloh, yes, we had the triangle of those three and then of course Monchengladbach.
BW: And so
NH: So I finished my tour there and made a lot of good friends, [unclear] we were Germans, Dutch, British and that very pleasant finished my career really, made some good friends who stayed friends right up till now, those who survived, even the Germans, the German commandant of the German regiment, he became, I still talk to him every week on the telephone [laughs]
BW: And so
NH: Oberst Wolfgang Ostermar
BW: Wolfgang Ostermar
NH: Wolfgang, yeah, we went on holidays together, became very close, you know.
BW: And is he a similar age to you?
NH: A year younger.
BW: So he’d been around the year, presumably in opposing forces when you [unclear]
NH: He was, he was, and he was taken prisoner by the Americans.
BW: Really? Did
NH: But he’s an Anglophile, speaks excellent English, same as his wife does. Did his training, of course he became a fighter controller but trained by us in Britain.
BW: Do you recall briefly what his wartime service was? Was he a pilot or a gunner or [unclear]?
NH: No, he was ground staff.
BW: Right. So there was no chance of him being
NH: When we’d been on holiday together, people made romantic conclusions, you know, a German and a British exile, sorry, good friends,
BW: But it wasn’t
NH: Not like that, no.
BW: And so you left the RAF and NATO
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was your civilian career, what did you, did you [unclear]?
NH: I enjoyed the last couple of years, I did a correspondence course which is organized by the service, my [unclear], what did I do?
US: Agency and business studies.
NH: Agency and business studies, that’s right, yes, and it was such an easy posting in Germany I was able to do this with a lot of enjoyment and I thought, well, I can go in human relations or something like that, I’m made for that and it meant a two week course in a [unclear] to start with, then about eighteen months correspondence, finishing up the six weeks again at Chelsea and we happened to be in the Chelsea barracks near the Chelsea officer’s mess but we were told, the Chelsea officer’s, the guards officers not the, not any ordinary mess it’s the guards officer’s mess and we were told very strictly we were not, we may be officers but we were not entitled to go into the guards officer’s mess [laughs].
BW: You mentioned before we started the interview you were security on the ton air project
NH: Well I, having got the H&C, I wrote lots and lots of letters people offering my services and I got reasonable replies from quite a number and I was offered several jobs, I eventually left the air force in November 1970 and I came up here, [unclear] they seemed puzzled as I, I wanted to come up here, why do you want to come up here then? [laughs] because I suppose hopefully you are going to offer me a job. So, they did in fact, I became assistant to the chief designer, they offered me two jobs actually, they offered me a job on Tornado cockpit which was still on the drawing board, I could have either be that job or be assistant to the chief designer, so I said, I’m not qualified to cock pit design work, so I think I better take the other one so I did that, which was quite a nice job, I learned a tremendous amount cause I worked in the main drawing office with him and got to know all the chaps and what they were doing and of course I say the Tornado was still on the drawing board it goes now in production but that was still very much a live product. And so I got to learn in eighteen months so I did that [unclear], I learned a lot and then the chap who is the chief security officer was an ex wing commander and I had, and he still, I want, I want to retire very soon, do you want to take my job over? So, that’s promotion anyway, so I did, I took, George Kennedy, wing commander George, he’d been an ex apprentice like me, but much earlier, and when he, well, I went and joined him as his assistant, first of all about eighteen months, two years, and then took over completely when he retired and that really was a splendid job because the Tornado was still not flying but it was full of classified information and working with the Germans and the Italians, our own Ministry of Defenses and who of course were very hard on us if we gave any information away it was all very and of course the Cold War was on, you know, and Munich we had plenty of Cold War suspects and [unclear] around Munich, eager to get hold of the information about the Tornado.
BW: And so, you were very limited about what you could and couldn’t say at the time.
NH: Oh yes, very much, yes, but it’s very, eventually I did get hold of because these technical people and engineers [unclear], the last thing they wanted to know was about is security, they want to show off their knowledge and they want to write papers and get their names noticed and things like that their ego, you know publicity, whereas we of course, the security side, wanted to restrict it, well, not because we ourselves wanted it, the Ministry of Defense, they provided the contracts and if we broke the rules, they would start threatening that there would be a loss of contract work. So that’s I, I managed to, because I had experience in aircraft all, you know, I think I was able to work all the people like flight test engineers, the flight crews, the [unclear] like Paul Millet, who is the chief test pilot at the time but he took over from, oh, famous wartime pilot, forgot the, I’ll get it in a minute, anyway I had a good time because I got on well with these people.
BW: And so, looking back at your career and the association you have with Bomber Command, how does it feel now looking back?
NH: Well, occupies my thoughts continuously cause I’m on my own now, I’ve been on my own for nearly elven years, it occupies a tremendous amount of time, I can’t read but I do have listening books which I enjoy and music but otherwise I, I have to use my own thoughts to pass the time and I do it a lot.
BW: And have you been able to keep in touch with progress in terms of the memorials to Bomber Command, how do you feel about the tributes and memorials that have been paid these days?
NH: Well, I love it and Dorothy and I went once to St Paul’s, that would be about, oh, about the year 2000, and I can’t even remember what it was for, is for, I know the chap who was the, oh gracious me, trying to remember, he was head of the air force, and he was also president of Bomber Command.
BW: The name that speaks to my mind are Paul Enteder.
NH: No, long after him, no, long after them.
BW: I see.
NH: He’s about my age.
BW: I see.
NH: Oh Gosh, anyway, we did go to this ceremony at St Paul’s cathedral, it be about three or four years before she died so, be about 2000 or something like that, we had a Lancaster flying over York, we all came out of the service and assembled on the steps, but what was the question?
BW: Have you been to Hyde Park memorial [unclear]?
NH: No, I’d like to, near the Green Park one, you mean?
BW:
NH: No, I haven’t, but I know of it and I and Tony Iveson , who was, this is how I did have a connection with, because he was in 4 Group the time as I was, and he led all the staff to make the memorial, he was on, I heard him on Desert island Discs, he’s dead now, but I couldn’t see it if I went I couldn’t see it.
BW: yeah.
NH: I used to, well, I am a member of the IMF club still but I haven’t’ ben there for three or four years.
BW: How do you, what are your thoughts about the memorial center that’s been set up in Lincoln, the International Bomber Command Center?
NH: I don’t know anything about it.
BW: They have now unveiled the memorial spire and the walls which have the names of all the fifty five thousand and something aircrew who were lost during the war and they are now building, or going to start building the Chadwick Center which will house documents, artifacts, there will be audio recordings as well such as this one, the digital
NH:
BW: That will be in the memorial center in Lincoln
NH: Is that a new purpose build
BW: It’s just outside, it’s on one of the hills outside of Lincoln.
NH: Oh! When is it going to be opened?
BW: The center should be opened later this year
NH: There will be a lot of publicity attached to that one. Pretty sure I can’t see much.
BW: I just wondered whether you’d be informed of it and today
NH: I haven’t been informed of it, I’d like to know about it but I can’t do, I can’t see it, so , you know, provided, I hope I shall hear about it.
BW: Well, I can post the details out to you and the information
NH: Right, yes,
BW: You know
NH: I’d like that. Because if I can’t read, Anthony can read it out to me.
BW: Yeah. So
NH: But I’m restricted in movement and everything else now, I don’t really want to go anywhere.
BW: I see. The, there aren’t any other questions that I have for you, are there any other particular recollections that may have come to mind you wish to talk about or else, anything else I may have missed?
NH: I’m sure there will be when you’re gone [laughs], I can’t, I think, oh, I’ve surprised myself [unclear]
BW: Well, it’s been very interesting to talk to you, you’ve given an awful lot of information
NH: Is it?
BW: [unclear] very happy with that.
NH: [unclear], I seen, I’m very happy with that. That’ll give me a better pleasure anyway.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
NH: Ok.
BW: [unclear] Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Neil Harris
Creator
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Brian Wright
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisNG160128
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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01:53:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Neil Harris wanted to join the RAF because he was looking for an exciting life experience and an opportunity for further education. He started as a flight mechanic before training as a pilot. Remembers being trained in different locations across the country, from Brighton to Kinloss, in Scotland. Mentions a particular night, when they took off late and had to catch up with the bomber stream. Flew with 48 and 578 Squadron. Shares his memories of D-Day, when he was targeting a gun battery in Northern France. Remembers his life after the war, when he was sent to Indonesia in the 60s during the Borneo confrontation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Nuremberg
Scotland--Wick
France
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-05
1944-06-06
50 Squadron
578 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter airframe
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Hudson
Lincoln
love and romance
Master Bomber
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
promotion
RAF Burn
RAF Halton
RAF Kinloss
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Rufforth
RAF Waddington
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/504/10775/PDavisRS1604.1.jpg
3c0b1cae022bad63d50d98f5562ac423
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/504/10775/ADavisRS160807.1.mp3
8ec4918107465e2d762c79a495e3aa52
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davis, Ronald
Ronald Samuel Davis
R S Davis
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Davis, R
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection concerns with Ronald Davis (1922 - 2017, 1231181 Royal Air Force). He served as ground crew with 49 and 617 Squadrons. Collection contains three oral history interviews as well as photographs of people and aircraft.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: Right. Good morning. Good afternoon. Or good evening. Whatever the case may be. This interview is being filmed for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is Thomas Ozel and this interview is being recorded on the 7th of August 2016.
RD: Thank you. My name is Ronald Davis. I’m ninety four years of age and I was born on the 2nd of March 1922 at a maternity hospital on the corner of City Road and Old Street which is in the City of London and which makes me a true Cockney. Born within the sound of Bow bells. My parents [pause] I can speak about were [pause] sorry, stop it there. Oh it doesn’t matter.
TO: No. You can just look at me. You don’t have to talk to the camera.
RD: I can talk to you.
TO: That’s fine.
RD: Right. And my mother was a little bit above working class but my father was very working class. He was a lady’s tailor which he hated from the day he started to the day he finished just before he died in his forties. And they lived in a humble two rooms in this house in New North Road. And shortly afterwards we moved to Mile End where my father’s mother and family lived. To be closer to the family. I was brought up in very humble surroundings and I said at times we had more dinner times than dinners. And my dad was hardworking but, but the tailoring trade was seasonal so when they worked they earned good money but when they were not working there was nothing coming in at all. I don’t think there was unemployment pay in those days. I was educated at a junior school where for reasons that my parents never understood I never passed the eleven plus which was the exam at that time and I went to a senior boy’s school in Bethnal Green where we moved when I was about seven years old. And this school in Bethnal Green gave me a very good general education and I found I did fairly well in that standard but I was not grammar school standard. I started work, aged fourteen as a solicitor’s office boy earning fifteen shillings and now seventy fifty five pence per week of which I gave me mother ten shillings towards my upkeep and kept the rest, less the deductions for myself which included my daily fare to the office which was a penny each way and, and for my lunches. After a year my boss called me in and said, ‘Davis, you’ve been very good for a year. You’re been a very good servant but we’re going to get another little boy in for fifteen shillings a week and you’d better find yourself another job. Not because we’re not satisfied with you but because you need a replacement and we have no place to promote you.’ I then went off and found, through an employment agency a job in another solicitor’s office in Chancery Lane, London. Central London as a junior clerk at twenty five shillings a week which was a very big increase from fifteen shillings. And I was there until the, towards the end of 1940 when I was eighteen and had decided that I wanted to go in to the Royal Air Force. I felt sure the only way I could get in was to volunteer which I did at the recruitment office in Whitehall. I was shortly afterwards interviewed and sent to RAF Cardington for assessment and within about six weeks I was called up, sent back to RAF Cardington for outfitting and a general description of what the RAF did and the discipline and appearance and the way you spoke to officers and things of that sort. I think I was there for about fourteen days and I was then sent to Bournemouth for my, what we called square bashing which is, which is learning to march and learning to exercise, general discipline and behaviour and things of that sort. In Bournemouth there was no RAF station. They, the, the RAF had taken over all the boarding houses that people had used at that time for their holidays. They were set up as bedrooms with washing facilities, a shared bathroom and, and we were there for three months altogether. I was given a room in this lovely boarding house overlooking Alum Chine with a view of the sea. It really was upmarket. And for the first time in my life, and I was eighteen years old, I had a room to myself. Because otherwise I had to share with my, my other brother and my two sisters who were all younger than me. And there I learned discipline. I learned drill. I learned exercise which I’d already done because I belonged to a Boy’s Club in the East End of London where we’d had lots of sports. Cricket. Football. Table tennis and things of that sort. So I knew about fitness and that. When I’d finished my training, incidentally my drill instructor in Bournemouth was a man called Sergeant Sam Bartram who in fact was a goal keeper for the England soccer team and also was the captain of a London soccer team called Charlton Athletic. Which at that time was in the First Division so he was very well respected and known by all the lads. In fact, as an aside most of the professional footballers or professional sportsman were drill instructors in in the RAF. It was very handy to have them on tap. From Bournemouth I was sent to RAF Halton which was a permanent RAF station and was Number 1 School of Technical Training. And there I learned all about aeroplanes. And a fitter airframe did everything on the aeroplane except the engines, except the armoury and except the electrician and something else. I can’t remember at the moment. But every other part of the aeroplane, the hydraulics, the pneumatics, the upkeep of the aeroplane, the refuelling, everything of that sort was done by the fitter airframe. And sitting on top of a bomber in the middle of Lincolnshire on a cold winter’s day filling up was, was no joke apart from the possible danger. At Halton I finished my course and became a, that was six months and I was immediately posted to RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire. Which at that time housed, every aerodrome had two squadrons. Scampton at that time housed 49 Squadron and 83 Squadron. Both flying with twelve Handley Page Hampdens which were, strangely enough made in Cricklewood Broadway in London. When I arrived there, there were a lot of, I arrived there in April or May 1942 and and when I arrived there there were lots of trainees coming in. And at one stage we probably had as many as twelve airframe fitters working on one aeroplane which was really not enough because one or two could manage. But this is when the RAF were turning out lots and lots of people and they were being trained and sent off all over the world. It so happens that I remained there all my time caring for these Handley Page bombers. My particular bomber was P for Peter and I obviously had various, various pilots. And one in particular who was with me for a long time was a pilot called Aussie Holt. He was an Australian and wore a navy blue uniform as opposed to the air force blue uniform so he was rather distinctive around the squadron I think. He was the only Australian pilot there at that time. And he was with me for quite a long time but unfortunately he was lost on the, on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst German battleships that went through the Channel unexpectedly. And I remember it was just after Christmas. I don’t think it was even New Year ’43 that we were loaded up with certain bombs that we were going to use when these bombers came out and then they were the wrong ones and before they could take off we had to do a very quick job of changing the bomb load so that they could go off on this raid. Unfortunately that was the worst occasion of any time that I remember on any squadron where we lost seven of our twelve aeroplanes. Including Aussie Holt who I grieved over for quite a while because I’d got to know him very well and he like me and we we, we were always chatting about various things. When you’re on a squadron it’s very difficult to adjust to losing your pilot but you had to get on and the more you got on the less you thought of it. But at times when crews were speaking about various things and we mentioned his name and there would be a pause for us to catch our breaths as it were and think about something else. You, you didn’t become attached to them personally like family but they were your crew and as a result of that it, it there was some effect. At least from me. I’m not sure whether it was the same for everybody else but at least for me it had some effect and often thinking of their family way back in Australia losing this wonderful guy who was their son. And then in, I think I said 1943 that, it must have been 1942 because early in ’43 49 Squadron was moved from Scampton because they were coming in to lay runways and the aerodrome obviously couldn’t be used during that time. So most of us were sent off to, not with 49 Squadron because I think when 49 finished with the Hampdens it didn’t come to life again for some time again later. And I know, and most of the crews were moved from Scampton to Waddington or Coddington Hall just a few miles away outside Lincoln where we became the 1661 Conversion Unit. Which was the place where they trained pilots to go from two engine to four engine bombers. Although, apart from the four engine bomber there were two-engined Manchesters. Not Lancasters. Manchesters. Which formed part of the early, early crews but they were a much bigger aircraft than the Hampden and therefore the size of two engines or four engines wasn’t so important as the size of the aeroplane. Can I stop there for a minute?
TO: Certainly.
RD: I’m running away here.
TO: Certainly. Yeah.
RD: Eh?
TO: Yeah.
RD: Ok. Now, am I doing it as you —
TO: Yeah. That’s great. Perfect.
RD: Yeah. Ok.
TO: Of course if you want to stop or take a break just say so.
RD: Yeah.
TO: Ok. Do you want to take a break now?
RD: Yeah. Please.
TO: Sure.
[recording paused]
RD: One thing that I, I want to tell you about was how, how I got to the air force. In, in 1938 when I was about sixteen I had a week’s, two weeks holiday. No. One weeks holiday from work. And I, I couldn’t afford to go away so my grandmother, I told you my grandmother who lived in Golders Green just down the road here invited me to come and stay with her for a week. So I cycled from the East End of London where we were still living to Golders Green which was a very upmarket suburban area and, on my bike which was my proud possession. And she looked after me for, for that week. And each day I, she would give me a bag of sandwiches and some drinks and biscuits and things and fruit and I would go off for the day. And I only got, on the first day, as far as Hendon Aerodrome which is just up the road from here now. And there I saw this RAF aerodrome with little tiny Tiger Moths and various other small aeroplanes. Biplanes. Single engine. And I sat on a stile all day long watching aeroplanes landing and taking off. And I think it was at that time that I decided that if ever I’m going to go in to the forces and there was talk of war at that time, I would want to go in the air force. And that’s why I joined up voluntarily. Yeah.
Other: Hello.
[recording paused]
TO: So, in the 1930s were you worried about Hitler at all?
RD: Oh yes. In, in the 1930s I was very worried about fascists of all sorts and kinds. I was brought up in the East End of London where there were very, very two powerful factions. The communists and the fascists. The British Union of Fascists had a very big unit in in Bethnal Green. And when I was sixteen, that would be in 1938 there had been all sorts of demonstrations. Particularly in Jewish areas. In the Jewish area where I lived there were confrontations between communists and fascists and communists and Jews. Young Jewish men. It’s a very interesting, you’ve caught me on a very good subject actually. It was a very interesting course. My, I am Jewish and my parents were born in England. My grandparents came to England in the middle 1890s. 1895 and one 1898. And my parents were born in England and educated in England. So I wasn’t first generation. I was second generation. Most of my friends would have been first generation. Parents not born in England. And as a result of that they had a different attitude to me. They always wanted to run away because that had been indoctrinated into them by their parents. My dad said, ‘You don’t run away from anybody. You stand up to anybody and confront them because a bully is always afraid of somebody who might confront him.’ My dad told me that from as long as I can remember. And as a result if I met fascists I didn’t, I didn’t run away. I, and I used to, when I was sixteen I never actually joined the communist party. I was never, never a communist as such but I used to go to communist party meetings because they were the people who confronted the fascists. So, yeah we were aware of Hitler but of course we knew nothing at that time about the concentration camps. Nothing whatsoever. That didn’t come out until well into the war. Probably ’43 ’44. Even ’43 there was very little. ’44 and ’45 there was a little bit of talk about it. It was only when we got to the camps, when the British Army and the American Army and the Russian Army got to the camps that we found out what it was all about. So, yes, definitely. We, we knew all about Hitler. And we also, I mean anybody with a common sense realised that a war was coming because it, it was you kept reading about these things. That Hitler had walked in to the Sudetenland and Hitler had walked in to Czechoslovakia and you automatically thought well where the hell’s he going to go to next? So yes I was personally very conscious. I’m not sure whether the same would apply to everybody else. That was my —
TO: And what did you think of the Munich Agreement?
RD: You have to remember I was very young. So I was seventeen and the communist party at the time and I associated with a number of people in that party. I was never active as such but I mainly saw them as the anti-fascists. Because you have to remember at that time neither the Labour Party nor the Conservative Party in Britain were anti-fascist. Were not anti-fascist. They were trying to come to terms with them. They weren’t anti. It was only the Communist Party that was anti-fascist. And for that reason. I ceased to have anything to do with the Communist Party when they made the alliance with, with Hitler in 1939 I think. 1938 or ’39. Sorry. Forgive me. What was your question again?
TO: No. You’ve already answered it. Which was what were your thoughts on the Munich Agreement?
RD: Yeah. The Munich Agreement. The Communist Party said it was the greatest political carve up in history. Where Chamberlain had been deceived. But the general opinion I think of the national newspapers was that this was going to solve all the problems.
TO: And were you ever in an air raid shelter during the bombing?
RD: Yes. We, in 1940 just before I joined up. February 1940. No. January. December/January ‘39 and ’40 my parents moved from the East End of London to Ilford where they rented a property with my mother’s brother. And there was about eight of us living in this three bedroom house with one bathroom and [laughs] but we were very comfortable there. Now, my dad, who in 1938 developed tuberculosis and couldn’t walk was in a [pause] I can’t remember what they called the hospitals where these people are. However, he was in a hospital, isolation hospital at Colindale here because it, it was terribly contagious at that time living with somebody with tuberculosis because of, you could catch it very easily. So he was in this hospital in 1938 to 1939 and when the war started my dad was sent home which made another one in this house and we all had to be very careful about it. Now, he made the decision that we would stay in our house. On the ground floor. We’d all get up and we’d be on the ground floor protected as far as we could be from a bombing raid and that we would not go in to a shelter. First of all it would have been no good for my dad to be down in those conditions. And secondly I think he was a very brave man to make that decision. To put his family at risk. His view was if we’re all going let’s go together rather than one at a time. So we never went to a public shelter. But I can remember the public shelters. I can remember going down them. I can remember when, before I joined up and after I joined up whenever I had leave and went up into town for a dance or something of that sort thousands and thousands of people sleeping down in in tube stations along the platforms. After about 9 o’clock at night they used to bring their stuff down and when you got off a train you had a narrow area that we walked through with all these people, all these families laying themselves out we mattresses like camping out. Which never really appeal to me [unclear] And my dad always said to me, ‘If you’re going out you’ve got to come home. You don’t stay out because there’s bombing.’ So that’s what we did. When my dad said that you did it. So I can. Very often walking through streets with shrapnel and all sorts of stuff falling down. So yes I did know about air raids and air raid shelters. There was one occasion when I was on leave and this would have been 1944 when I got to the Gants Hill near where my parents lived there. A road just off there. It was all blocked off by police because an aeroplane, a German aeroplane had come down on the corner of my parent’s street and was on fire above. Stuck in an empty shop. And I said to the policeman who was blocking the road, ‘You must let me through because my house is just down that road where, where the aeroplane is. I want to see if my mother and brother and sisters are well.’ My father had died by then. And he said, ‘Yes, go on.’ I was in uniform. He said, ‘Go on. You go through.’ So I went through and this aeroplane had apparently come, been shot down and had come straight down my mother’s road, scraping it’s wheels on the rooves of the houses and then plopped on to this empty shop. A miracle. Plopped onto this empty shop on the corner. There was no bombs exploded but the aeroplane made a bit of a mess of the building as you could imagine. And when I got to my front garden, a very small garden, there was a parcel lying there. And I knew it was the dinghy that had fallen out of the wing of this aeroplane as it was coming down. And I called my brother, I said, ‘Come on Ted. Let’s take this dinghy in. We’ll keep this as a souvenir.’ Which was a stupid thing to do but never mind. And my brother and I were trying to drag it in and my mother and two sisters were on the other side of the door, ‘Don’t bring it in here. it’s a bomb.’ You know [laughs] So, we, we left the dinghy where it was. And the other thing I can remember is the, one of the crew stuck in a tree outside, right outside of our house. One of our neighbours was trying to hit him with a, with a shovel. Calling him all, all the unknown names you’d heard previously. Yeah. So that’s, that’s what I remember about that.
TO: And what were your, when you were in the RAF at an airfield with aircraft on operations what were your everyday duties?
RD: My everyday duties were there were no days off. On a bomber command station in my 5 Group we worked seven days a week from eight till five. Eight to five. And every third day you did a twenty four shift because during the day we worked on the aeroplanes and prepared them for night raids when they were. And then a skeleton crew of about four or five would carry on after 6 o’clock through the night to see the aeroplane off or see them back or both. And then refuel them, prepare, repair any damage. Slight damages. Large damages went to the hangar but small damage was done out in the open on the airfield. And we would finish at four, five, 6 o’clock in the morning depending on what time they got back. And when we were finished we went off to bed and you then had the rest of that day off. So I would normally sleep till mid-day and then go in to Lincoln or one of the local villages just to have a bite to eat and a drink. Most of the boys used to go for a drink but I used to go for some food first. I had great problems with coping with the food. It was very poor. Very poor. I’m not going to say I was ever hungry hungry. But I wasn’t ever satisfied with the food. And at one time I discovered that there were mushrooms growing out on the airfield. And I had a friend of mine who was a country boy who knew the difference between mushrooms and those that you can eat and that you can’t eat. And he taught them to me. And I used to get up early in the morning before duties and collect two pounds of mushrooms out on the airfield. And I then used to take them to the, the NAAFI manageress used to live in a accommodation on the site. The NAAFI. And I had an arrangement with her that if I brought her two pounds of mushrooms she would cook me a pound on four slices of toast and keep the other pound for herself which she was very happy to do. It took people an awful long time to wonder what I was doing at the NAAFI manageress’s abode [laughs] With no other purpose other than to have my mushrooms.
TO: How would you describe morale?
RD: Morale was up and down. Morale was up and down. Most of the time morale was high. But you would get the occasional misery who would try to alter things. Speaking personally I think it’s in my nature to not, not to moan and have discipline. Self-discipline. But as for morale I never saw anything. I never saw anything that would make me worried. At any time. You’d get an occasionally a guy going a bit off the rails and let it all out but, you know, the next day he was fine, but morale generally was good. Yeah. I’m getting a feeling there’s a bit of something that shouldn’t be there in these questions. Is it my imagination?
TO: What? Am I asking questions I shouldn’t ask?
RD: No. No. The things that you’re asking me about we we never really had time to worry about morale.
TO: Ok.
RD: Morale was there. You only had a little bit of moaning and morale was there. And the discipline was there but the discipline off the airfield amongst the administration staff where you always had to have your buttons polished and boots clean and that sort of thing did not apply on the airfield. The, the NCOs were lenient with, I mean you saw the way we were dressed. Well, no officer would have passed that dress but that’s how we were. The discipline was lax as such out on the airfield because we didn’t have time and there was no necessity for it. Who was seeing us except the other crews? Yeah.
TO: And did you ever find out about the damage that the raids were causing?
RD: Yes. They would come back and say, ‘Oh we, we hit that target well and truly.’ Or they would come back and say, ‘I think we were in the wrong place,’ or something of that sort. But rarely did a crew tell us exactly what went on. What they told, were told at the debriefing after each bombing raid in the mess I do not know. But they would say, ‘No. We, we, I think we were in the wrong place today,’ or, ‘No. We hit this one. We really hit this one.’ But that sort of thing. As far as I can remember. If I think about it a bit more [pause] No. I, I can never say they sent us to the wrong target or anything of that sort. There was never anything of that sort.
TO: And what, how did you feel when you heard about the attack on the Ruhr dams?
RD: Well. I was involved in that obviously. I thought it was the greatest thing that ever happened. But it was a very, very, very costly exercise. A very costly exercise in the way of numbers of aircraft and numbers of crew that, that were killed. But it was a great puzzle to us because when the first aeroplanes arrived for the Dambuster raid we didn’t know what it was going to be. Hadn’t the faintest idea. Certainly didn’t know what we were going to carry. But one day — when an aeroplane, when a Lancaster flew over you knew the sound of it and invariably you didn’t look up. But if you heard a strange sound you would look up to see what it is. And these Lancasters came over with a strange sound. A different sound to the one that was usual. And when we looked up we saw they had no bomb doors. And so we automatically said, ‘Oh well, they’ve run out of bloody bomb doors again and they’re sending them out without bomb doors. We’ll have to fit them.’ But it was intended that that the bomb the round bomb was the base of where the bomb doors were. You couldn’t close the doors. It was so low they couldn’t close the bomb doors so they had to go without bomb doors and this thing was streamlined to comply with that. So that was the first thing we found out. That the new bombs were going to be without bomb doors. And we, we were extraordinarily proud of that. Extraordinarily proud of that. But as I say that was a massive, massive loss.
TO: So were you in 617 Squadron at the time —
RD: Yes.
TO: Of the raid.
RD: At the time. Yeah.
TO: After those losses did that affect morale?
RD: Sorry?
TO: Did those losses affect morale?
RD: No. No. No. We [pause] I think we were all very sad but there’s a difference between being sad and your morale. Oh no. At no time was our morale affected by that. So far as I know.
TO: And what do you, how did you feel when you heard about the rain on Hamburg in ’43?
RD: Well, I don’t know. We did dozens of raids on Hamburg. Which one are you speaking about?
TO: The one where there was the fire storm. When we first used Window.
RD: Oh yeah. Well, first of all you have to remember that the Germans made the first big firestorm in 1940 when they set fire to the City of London. So, so it wasn’t new. It had been done before. And so far as anybody in the RAF was concerned well bloody good, bloody shame you know. This war has got to be won. If that’s the way we’ve got to do it that’s the way we do it. I don’t quite think you realise how strong were feelings of Britain that we retaliate for all that we had been through for all that long winter. That long year. The Battle of Britain. You know, you, we had it all bottled up within us. No. No. No qualms whatever. No. Why should we? Why should we? We, we didn’t start it. We were trying to rid the world of a monster. No. I don’t see this view at all. I don’t see this view. I’m sorry but people may well think of it these days but conditions are rather different now to what they were. I mean do you realise how close we were to being overrun? If, if Hitler had had two penneth of guts he’d have walked straight into Britain and taken it over. We had no defence. Our army had lost its, all, all its equipment in, after Dunkirk. And if he’d have come straight across he would have walked straight into Britain and I mean there’s no knowing where or what have been after that. I don’t know who could. So you have to take all this into account when you think of raids like Hamburg. No. We had no qualms about them at all.
TO: Did you hear about how other campaigns of the war were going?
RD: Oh yes. There was no such, there might have been a bit of cover up here and there on certain losses or when they were made not quite so bad as they were. But generally speaking I am convinced that our press was as free as any press in the world. And newspapers didn’t like to publish bad news but, but we always got the bad news. No. I I don’t think. I might have been deceived about, but saying they used to say each time how many aircraft were lost on a raid in the morning new, ‘The RAF last night raided Hamburg with a thousand aeroplanes of Hampdens, Halifax, Manchesters, Lancasters, Halifaxes, Wellingtons. A thousand. Rustled up a thousand and they bombed Hamburg and six didn’t return.’ You know. It was announced like that. It was never that four hundred never returned. You know. There was never anything of that sort. They were, they were small numbers. Perhaps ten out of a thousand or twenty but they were numbers of that sort. But, but when on the Dambuster raid we lost I think it was, I think it was eight. Yeah. That was a heavy loss. And that would have been announced. They might have said that three were shot down. The crew had bailed out and they were prisoners and four are missing. Or something of that sort. Yeah. So I had no doubts whatever that the press did announce. That we were informed. Yeah.
TO: And what are your thoughts on the bombing of Dresden?
RD: Bombing of, well my thoughts on the bombing of Dresden I think I have no qualms whatever. I have heard the stories about what Dresden did and that it was only for peaceful purposes but we knew for a fact that pieces of the machinery for the rockets that were being dropped on Britain were made, manufactured, designed, designed and manufactured in that part of the world. So therefore Dresden meant nothing. I mean, every time anyone asks me I say well tell me about the City of London that was destroyed in one bombing raid with fire that burned the whole lot out. And I saw the city after the bombing so I know the whole bloody chute went in one night.
TO: Did you ever actually see any of the V-2s when they attacked London?
RD: I I I saw the V-1s. The chug chug chug. You couldn’t ever see the V-2s. The first thing you knew about the V-2s was, was it landing. The V-1s were, were these chug chug chug things and you knew that whilst the engine was running you were alright but the moment the engine cut out, when it turned to drop then start worrying because you’re, you’re in line for it. I’d heard lots of V-1s and also I’d heard recordings on the radio of them going over during the news. But V-2s you never saw. You only knew when they landed. I never heard one explode but I’d seen where some of them exploded and they really knocked it to smithereens.
TO: Were the V-2s — sorry.
RD: Sorry?
TO: Were the V-2s quite a shock to everyone?
RD: No. Because I think we were warned that the Germany had these things. We were warned beforehand that that they would be coming at some time and they did. But again I don’t think morale was affected by that. I can’t recall any one family that I met at any time during the war who had lost faith in in what we were doing. Right. I, I really can’t. Because even those that supported the, the British Union of Fascists, the BUF, even those, they were still British to the core. They never converted to, to German. You know, the British Union of Fascists they didn’t want to lose England. If if you can understand what I’m saying. No. No. So there was never anything of that to my, to my knowledge and I’d be very distressed to hear somebody say that there was.
TO: And why do you think Bomber Command were treated the way they were after the war?
RD: I think Churchill made quite an error of judgement. Something must have happened at some time between Harris and Churchill. Or Harris and some minister which, which, which turned Churchill and I think Churchill regretted for the rest of his days although I don’t think he ever said so publicly. He said one or two things but he didn’t say fully and publicly that he regretted saying it. But I was annoyed that Bomber Command was not recognised for what it did and it did a hell of a lot for Britain during a time when army, the years when the army was inactive until D-Day. I mean we were the only enemy that the enemy knew about. And I was very annoyed that Bomber Command was not recognised with a special award and that we who served in Bomber Command never had one single badge to show that we were Bomber Command. On the other hand Fighter Command never had one single badge to show it won the Battle of Britain. But those things should have been recognised. And personally I was distressed from day one that I mean, you know not distressed but I’m sorry that the service that we gave was not recognised in a better way than it was by just giving us a general service medal.
TO: And what’s your best memory from the war?
RD: My best memory is camaraderie. My best memory was that I was very lucky to be where I was doing what I was on a active squadron going to the enemy when I realised that for years and years and years other guys in the services were sitting around scratching themselves, doing very little but training ready for D-Day which didn’t come until 1943 — four. 1944. So that was my greatest memory. I was proud. I was proud to serve. I was proud to be there and I was proud to be on an operational squadron. I went in a little, I really was a little boy at eighteen and I really came out a man knowing what the world was. And which prepared me for my later career where I very fortunately made a, made a success. To give me what I’ve got today from, from that very humble start.
TO: And were there ever any occasions where aircraft crashed near your airfield?
RD: Oh yes. Oh yes. But you have to remember that some of the pilots when they arrive are novice pilots. When they arrive on the squadron for the first time they’ve had their training, they’ve had good training from small aircraft to large aircraft. But when they get on to a squadron with a crew and the bomb load and all the rest of it it’s a little bit of a different story until you’ve been through it several times. So I’ve seen lots of aeroplanes crash on landing for no apparent reason. When I was at Scampton with the Hampdens one aeroplane over shot the airfield. Remember when we were on Hampdens there was only grass. There was no concrete airstrip. So although there was a marked out place for aircraft to land and the Drem lights, Drem lights are lights that you can see from sixty seventy eighty feet which you can’t see from up above. And they used to come in on those. That’s another story. When they came back from a raid and there had been snow the Drem lights were covered up by the snow. So an aeroplane coming in on to a snow covered airfield could not see the Drem lights. So on those occasions ground crew would have to go out. There would be about fifteen every fifty yards. They would have one man every fifty yards with a goose necked, goose necked oil can with paraffin in that we would light when we got the signal. Number 1 got the signal from, from the conning tower to light his lamp and the other fifteen would, would light it and you would stand there in the freezing cold in the middle of an airfield hunched up waiting to get the light to light yours. And then you would light your lamp, oil lamp. Then run across the runway. Light the other one on the other side. So make a path for the aeroplane to land and as soon as he landed you put the lamp out. Run across and put the other one on. Wait for the next one to come. It was so primitive it was the only way you could do it if there was snow. What was the other question that I, that I —
TO: The question was what crashes did you see?
RD: Oh yes. Then, then onwards I interrupted it. One night, and bearing in mind we landed on grass and one aeroplane for reasons unknown, I don’t know why but it overshot the perimeter fence and went in to a field that belonged to a farmer further along. And this aeroplane unfortunately ran into about twenty heifers. Cows. Massive cows. And when we got there you couldn’t tell humans from animals. And that was the most horrible thing I have ever experienced in my life. We, we didn’t have to touch them. The medical crew did that. But to see this mixture of animals and humans was something that I’m very, very reluctant to talk about at any time as it’s very distressing. That, that’s what I can tell you about that.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the air crews?
RD: Generally speaking [coughs] generally speaking yes. It was, my aeroplane normally had the same crew. So that we knew them and we would chat about this, that and the other and things that young men talk about. It also helped them to keep their minds off what they were about to do. And, and then they would go off and we would welcome them back and all the rest of it. Sometimes when your crew wasn’t there it was a strange crew. Your crew was off on leave or something of that sort. Then a strange crew would fly the aeroplane. And I would do nothing. And they would just nod or wink and say, ‘How are you doing?’ And that that’s it, but we never had, if we saw them out in the pub we might say hello and have a little chat with them but we never had a lot to do with them because they were in a different mess to us. You know, half of them were officers so they were entirely different. The others were senior NCOs and again that wasn’t a mess that I used. So, we, we never saw them. And very occasionally did they actually come down to the flight because there was nothing, the flight is where the aeroplanes were dispersed. Way out across the field. They very rarely had to come down. Occasionally they would have to do compass swinging and things of that sort on the ground when they, two of them would come out. The pilot and the engineer and they would move the aircraft around on the airfield for various reasons. But again when they went off they didn’t, sometimes we went with them. I would often tow an aeroplane by the back wheel for compass swinging. We had to test, test the compass. Then the aircrew didn’t do it. I would do it with the compass. We also unofficially used to move the aircraft on the ground from one spot to another. It was not officially allowed but but we did and we also had a wonderful system that when aircraft had been repaired the engineers went up on the test. Which was, we didn’t make mistakes that way. And so I used to quite, fly quite a lot and yeah then then you would be more involved with the crews. But other than that we never saw a lot of them because there was never an occasion.
TO: Ok.
RD: But they were always friendly. Always appreciated. If there was sometimes some aircraft used to have a little peculiarity then you would tell them, ‘Watch that one because, it’s alright but you know it might need looking at. Let us know.’ Yeah.
TO: And what did you think of Arthur Harris?
RD: I thought he was my hero. He was my hero. He was. I mean I only saw him three times I think during, during the whole of my career but we knew him and we used to get orders and things of sort signed by him. But he was my hero. He was the greatest man that there was born. There was a Group Captain Whitworth. Now, how did I remember that name? A Group Captain Whitworth who was the senior officer at Scampton at that time who was the station commander. That’s the two squadrons. He was detached from either squadron. The wing commander was the, was the senior man in my squadron. And, and he was in charge of Scampton and I, he was a great disciplinarian. A bit of a pain in the arse sometimes but he was a very good man. And then I had a senior officer, Squadron Leader Bell whose family owned the Express Dairies. I don’t know whether that means anything to you but Express Dairies delivered milk to every house in Britain, and his family owned that outfit. And when I was demobilised and I was taking some exams for the Law Society I needed something signed to prove that I’d done something. And I looked him up after the war and he was delighted to see me and help me. Helped me very much. And you know I felt I was imposing on him but he assured me that he was glad to do it to an old comrade. And he gave me a reference that I needed for one of my exams to prove what I’d done. So yeah but Harris was my hero. Yeah. Yeah.
TO: How much time have we got? It’s about —
RD: It’s alright. Another ten minutes.
TO: Ok.
RD: Ten minutes. Yeah.
TO: Ok. Yeah. There a Bomber Command Centre form I’ll need you to sign afterwards if that’s ok.
RD: Yeah.
TO: I just don’t want to trespass on your time.
RD: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: I can see you’re going to lunch. When you were, on the occasions when you did go flying in the aircraft what were conditions like on board?
RD: In what way?
TO: Well was it very cramped?
[recording paused]
RD: No. Remember a Lancaster is a very big bomber. And you climbed up steps to get in the door at the back and then walk along the main part of the rear of the aeroplane ‘til you came to the main spar where you cocked your leg over and went in to the wireless operator’s little cubbyhole on the left. And, and then further along was the navigator on the left. And then there were the two seats for the pilot and the co-pilot engineer. And underneath that was the place where the bomb aimer used to lay. It, it was cramped but nothing like a fighter aeroplane. There are two, two things about that that [pause] I’ve forgotten what I was saying now [pause]
TO: Conditions aboard was it?
RD: No.
TO: Or positions of people?
RD: No. It was never, never cramped in a bomber aircraft. If, if you want to know what cramped is — in, in the in the pay in the Hampden there were pilot, second pilot, engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and two other gunners. Now, the rear gunner, the one right at the back out on his own was in a cupola underneath the belly of the aircraft at the back. Above him would be the tail. And he would sit in that turret with his legs up like this, he’d obviously got support at the back, with his gun like that for eight hours. That was uncomfortable and cold. Absolutely freezing cold. He used to have to have a heating, a heated suit. And the sheer boredom of looking at nothing. Looking for aircraft. That was uncomfortable. But I don’t think I can say that anybody else was uncomfortable in a Lancaster. Except if you’re out on a gun, the rear gun at the back of the aircraft that swivels around I suppose you could say it was uncomfortable. I’ve written a lovely story that’s just been published about a Canadian pilot. But I’ll send you an email. It was nothing to do with me. It’s something that happened after the war but just as a matter of interest give me your email address.
TO: Ok.
RD: I’ll send it to you. Yeah.
TO: I’ll send you, if you like I’ll send you a link to an Imperial War Museum with Harris.
RD: From?
TO: That Harris did in 1977. I can send you a link via an email.
RD: Yeah.
TO: To a website where you can listen to an interview with Harris.
RD: Oh well they’ve got it up at Lincoln because I sent it up to, to them but this would, I don’t know if you know about the pilot who gave his life to save the crew.
TO: No. What was that?
RD: Well this is the story of —
TO: Ok. Send me that one.
RD: I’ll send it to you personally.
TO: Ok.
RD: Or to whatever address you want to.
TO: Yeah. Ok.
RD: But Lincoln have already seen it and it’s been published in the magazine.
TO: Ok.
RD: So you might have seen it there which you can then forget it.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war ended?
RD: On the day that war ended. That which would be VE Day I was still [pause] up near Lincoln. But we used, for a special night out we used to go to Nottingham and I and a crowd of guys went out to Nottingham to celebrate and we did. It was alleged the prettiest girls in England were in Nottingham and so we used to make for Nottingham at any given opportunity. I think it was right actually. But that was VE. Now VJ Day I really can’t remember offhand. I might think about it later on. But certainly VJ night I celebrated in Nottingham which was the nearest big city.
TO: And — sorry.
RD: Sorry.
TO: Do you remember hearing about the atomic bombs on Japan?
RD: Oh yes. Of course. Well, one of our commanders Leonard Cheshire was, was on the raid. And, and we, we didn’t know until, until afterwards. But but but oh yes we thought, thought this was fantastic. I mean never ever thought it was what it was at that time. You know the atomic bomb. Ok it’s a big bomb that blows up everything but we did not realise the significance of the post bomb period and things of that sort. And at that time I don’t think it was considered. The important thing was to get it over. You know. Regardless. Why should we have any sympathy for these people who have done this? That is always my question. I’m not asking you but my question why should we care? We want to get the war over and however we get it over we get it over. I don’t say we’d do things that are criminal. I mean Idon’t think this is criminal. This is just the way you fight a war. I mean I don’t believe in anything illegal. It’s not illegal to me. Not illegal to me. Whether, whether I’m sympathetic to those people that did die at that time. Whether I’m still sympathetic now is another matter entirely but my thoughts at that time were absolutely thank goodness for that. It’s over.
TO: Right.
RD: And I knew it would be because it would be stupid to. We would have just wiped Japan off the face of the earth. Yeah.
TO: Do you remember hearing about the Holocaust?
RD: Oh yes. That was terribly upsetting. Terribly, terribly upsetting. We knew that that large numbers of people. I mean, you also have to remember that there were some refugees from Germany who got out before the war and they were in every, every community. So, we, we knew about this and were told how they got out with great difficulty without anything. On the other hand some of them did get out with some of their belongings. They had to get a special certificate and pay certain monies to take them out of Germany. Which they did and they arrived in England with them. So, you know, a lot of it, a lot of them came out quite legally but they were very few in relation to the numbers that we’re talking about. Yeah. No, I had no, I had no direct relatives who, who were there. Although subsequently I did find that there were some of my grandfather’s relatives who I’d never heard of who survived and came, came to England. But no, it was, it was earth shattering. How, how could any people do that? And and the other thing that infuriated me and infuriates me to this day is those Germans who said they didn’t know. Because I don’t believe they didn’t know. I think they just shut their eyes to it. You know. That’s the German man in the street couldn’t tell me that he didn’t know. People living next door. What was it? You know. So that’s, that’s the way I feel about that.
TO: I think I’m —
RD: Yeah.
TO: I’ve more or less run out of time.
RD: Right.
TO: But is there anything you want to add at all?
RD: No. No.
TO: No.
RD: Not really. I mean I could probably go on forever. I’m amazed that I, I remember as much as I, as I do. I feel very fortunate and gifted that I can still do it. Seeing, you know, contemporaries of mine. The way they are and ill health and memories are gone and Alzheimers and all and all the rest of them, so I consider myself very, very fortunate to still have my mind working. And the fact that I can travel and do travel and enjoy life to the extent that I don’t know how I found time to work [laughs]
TO: Well, thank you very much.
RD: You’re welcome.
TO: I really enjoyed it.
RD: Pleasure.
TO: Thank you.
RD: A pleasure to meet you Thomas.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ronald Davis
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tom Ozel
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavisRS160807, PDavisRS1604
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:15:05 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ronald Davis grew up in the East End and worked in London as a solicitor’s office boy. He joined the RAF and trained as a fitter airframe. He was saddened when the pilot of the aircraft he services did not return from operation because they had got along so well. He and the other ground crew would also have to manually light flares to guide the aircraft on to the runway if the Drem lights were covered with snow. He also describes dealing with air crashes and sights that have stayed with him throughout his life.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1942
1943
1944
1661 HCU
49 Squadron
617 Squadron
83 Squadron
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
displaced person
faith
fitter airframe
grief
ground crew
ground personnel
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF Halton
RAF Scampton
runway
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/760/10757/PCulkinJ1702.2.jpg
76d9891f9516091d87227b71d1507485
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/760/10757/ACulkinJ170913.2.mp3
d6e8c804c247fbcca49d095ec677db49
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Culkin, Jean
J Culkin
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Jean Culkin, née Dodds (b.1924), photographs and documents. The collection also contains an album of photographs and newspaper cuttings. Jean Culkin grew up in Sunderland and worked in a reserved occupation. Her husband, John George Mackel Culkin, served as ground crew.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jean Culkin and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Culkin, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CH: This interview is being conducted for the international Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt. The interviewee is Jean Culkin. Also present is Sue Kendall, Jean Culkin's daughter. The interview is taking place at [buzz] in Washingborough. Ok. Thank you for agreeing to be, agree to be interviewed, Jean. I just need to say the date is the 13th of September 2017. If you could start by telling me something about you early life, and your family and where you were brought up, please.
JC: I was born in Sunderland. I can't remember the name of the street. I think it was Rosewood Street and it was the West End of Sunderland. I had a sister, my mum and dad. My dad worked for Ringtons and they sent him when I was five years old from Sunderland to Newcastle. I went to school at Newcastle. I left school when I was fourteen. I left school on the Friday and on the Monday I was working. I had to go down to the Bureau and they used to say, ‘What would you like to do, Jean?’ ‘I’d like to work in an office.’ And sure enough that's how I started. Tea girl in an office when I was fourteen. And of course, the war was just around the corner. I didn't want to join the Services. I was a home girl really and that was it. But I left school on the Friday and I started work the following Tuesday in an office as a tea girl. Then you go from that, sort of doing invoices and teaching me to type. I got fed up with that job. I was there for a year. Applied for another job and went on from there. I went to typing school. That was about eight months. I wanted to do shorthand but I couldn't remember all the figures. The alphabet is entirely different and that was it. That’s how I finished. In an office as a typist. There was five or six of us typists, two manageresses and the boss and it was a sweetie factory. And you couldn't be called up because sweeties, sugar that came under the rationing so some of the girls wanted to join the Services and the boss man said, ‘If you want to go you'll never come back.’ Because once you were in this job its government. Yeah. Food. And that was it. I was there. I left when I was twenty one. Yeah. That’s all.
CH: When you were twenty one, what year was that?
JC: I was born in ’24. ’45. No. Was it thirty, ’45?
CH: So, you were working in the sweet factory during the war.
JC: The war was just around the corner. Yes.
CH: The war hadn't actually started.
JC: No. But it was on its way, you know. That’s why some of the girls wanted to join the ATS, the WAAF —
SK: But when the war started you used to sit with a bucket of sand didn’t you? In the dark.
JC: Sorry?
SK: When the war started in Newcastle and they were dropping bombs you had to sit in the factory with a bucket of sand.
JC: Yes.
SK: On your own through the night.
JC: Yes. That’s right.
SK: In case a bomb dropped.
JC: In case [laughs] What I would have done, I couldn’t even work a stirrup pump properly.
SK: No.
JC: You know. The pump. But I’m still here so I must have got through it.
CH: So, when the war started —
JC: Yes.
CH: Where were you working?
JC: This was at the sweetie factory. Yes. Yes.
CH: And you stayed working there throughout the war, did you?
JC: Yes. Yes.
CH: Could you tell me a little bit about working there? What you did.
JC: It was, well the orders used to come from upstairs where the factory was because they had a van that went out to all the sweetie shops and they used to take orders, go back up here and give it to all the guys that made the toffee and the sweets. And halfway through the week one of the ladies would come down and say, ‘Right, this order is for this shop.’ This shop. This shop. Now, the boss used to say, ‘Right. You do that. You do that, and you.’ So we had sort of, you know your own section to do. Yeah. Now —
CH: Did you work shifts?
JC: No. No. It was nine ‘til five. 1 o'clock on a Saturday. Yeah. No half days. No. No. It was quite, quite interesting.
CH: So, during the war did you see much of bombing?
JC: Well, yes because in the garden we had an Anderson air raid shelter and we’d just probably just go to bed about nine, half past nine, 10 o'clock, just get nice and comfortable. Mom and dad were in the front bedroom, my sister and I were in the bedroom and the siren would go and my dad would say, ‘Right. Up.’ Just leave your nighties and dressing gown on and run down the stairs, the back stairs into the Anderson shelter. But my mum would say, ‘Just a minute. I've got to get the case.’ That big, with the policies. Full of policies for the house. Yeah. Anyway, there we were freezing cold. ‘Right. Go on. Get in the shelter.’ And we’d [coughs] excuse me we’d sit in there until the all-clear went. And eventually my dad thought, ‘Right, we'll have to make this comfortable.’ So then he got some cushions from somewhere and we had cushions to sit on instead of the wooden seat and you could sort of lie down. The all-clear would go maybe three, four, 5 o'clock and you’d think, ‘Oh God. Right. Can we go up now?’ ‘Yeah.’ My dad wouldn’t let us leave unless that siren said mmmmm. Go upstairs and my mum said, ‘Right. It's nearly time to go to work.’ Pointless going to bed. It’s 7 o'clock in the morning. Go in the bath and get washed, changed, clean your teeth. Toast. Cup of tea. Off. My sister to the fruit shop at the top of the street where she worked and meto Cowper and Dodsworth where I worked. The sweetie factory.
CH: Cowper and —
JC: Cowper and Dodsworth.
CH: Dodsworth.
JC: Yes. Yes. We never saw Mr Cowper. He lived in Jesmond and he was very rich. We went up there one Wednesday afternoon. Miss Tomlinson, the boss said we’d been invited to Mr Cowper’s house. Jesmond. And we went and, oh it was beautiful. Beautiful. And they had a swing in the garden. The girls would say, ‘Can we sit on here?’ ‘Can we sit there?’ And we had glasses of lemonade and we were there for about two hours. And then Miss Tomlinson, our boss said, ‘Right, girls. We’d better go now.’ Yes. So we all got on the bus and came back to Cowper and Dodsworth and finished off what we were doing. That was Mr. Cowper. Very posh, you know in those days.
SK: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: Yeah. We never saw him at work but it was Mr Dodsworth in the office.
SK: Probably just counting the money.
JC: And Miss, there was a door there, Miss Tomlinson, our boss lady. She was here. And then the typists here. Shorthand typist there and there was Stella McQueen. She was the youngest. She was fifteen.
SK: I wonder where she is now.
JC: She came in one day, she’d only been there about four months and she came in one day and she said, ‘You know my brother. He’s eighteen. He's just been called up for the Air Force and he’s been posted to the Middle East.’ ‘My God.’ I said, ‘What's his name?’ ‘Steve McQueen.’ You can't forget Steve McQueen. And by this time I was writing to your dad. I got a letter and he said, ‘You wouldn't believe it Jean but I've got an airman here called Steve McQueen and he says he has a sister that works with Jean Dodds. In the Middle East.
SK: Oh, wow.
JC: Because Jack’s squadron was with Monty. You know, they were behind. Monty was on, all the Halifaxes were here. Now, how's that for a coincidence, eh?
SK: Yeah.
JC: Yeah. Yeah. That was it.
SK: Didn’t he meet somebody who knew Auntie Anne who lived in Schimel Street? Dad.
JC: What? In the RAF?
SK: When he was away he met somebody.
JC: I don’t know.
SK: And he said his sister lived in Schimel Street and that he had —
JC: Is that how they got —
SK: Somebody Dad was with in the RAF who, who knew. Knew Schimel Street. At the top of the other end, I think.
JC: I can't remember that, sweetheart. No.
CH: Can we go back to when you were working in the factory?
JC: Cowper and Dodsworth. Yes.
CH: Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
JC: The delivery man, yes. It was horse and cart. Well, couldn't get petrol. Yes. And his name, the driver, Ambrose and Ambrose used to come to the office every morning at half past seven because there was always somebody around and say, ‘Right. I'll be back in an hour. If I can have my order sheet. As soon as I get the order sheet I’ll get the sweeties from over there in jars. So I can put it on my van.’ With the horse. Yeah. Yeah. I think he was about seventy, Ambrose. Yeah. But he was lovely. I’ll always remember him. Nice old man. Yeah. Load the back of the cart with all the jars of sweeties and paradise fruits and peppermint, you know, bon bons. Yes. Yeah. What else can I tell you? It was nine to five. An hour for lunch.
SK: How much did you earn?
JC: Seven and six. What’s that today? I mean, but in those days you know, I mean, I think my dad was on about two pound ten shillings a week. The rent at Rothbury Terrace, seventeen and six a week. I don’t know. Upstairs flat you see.
CH: What did your father do?
JC: He worked for Ringtons Tea. He was, there again a van. They had the van. If you get the tea packet out I’ll show the lady, and the horse. And he used to start, he had to be, 7 o’clock he used to start work. He used to get to the factory, go around the back and the young boy would give him the horse and my dad would come down with the horse and the van there and he’d have to put the horse in to the van and kit it all out and what not. Yeah. And then the van boy who was with my dad would say, ‘Right, we're off, Mr Dodds, are we?’ Sure enough, yeah. He’d have his order for where he had to go. Gateshead. You know. All around. Heaton. Yeah. And he’d be out. I often wonder, he used to get terrible chilblains because he used to have to knock on doors. He used to wear mitts. My mum made him mitts but they didn’t get rid of the chilblains. Yeah. And he used to have to be out on the street at 8 o'clock and he’d get back about 7 o'clock at night. As you did in those days, you know. It wasn't a nine to five job. And I used to think, my God in all the rain because there was no front on the front of the van in those days. It was just the horse and the boy by him, you know. Helping him. Yeah. He must have got soaked. That's why he had blooming chilblains. Yeah.
CH: How old were you when you met Jack?
JC: Sixteen.
CH: Could you tell us a little bit about meeting him?
JC: Yes. I can tell you an awful lot.
SK: You’ll hear his life story.
JC: I lived in [laughs] I lived in Newcastle. Right. And I had a cousin, my cousins all lived in Sunderland and Dorothy, she was three years older than me, she wrote to me. No telephones in those days. She wrote to me and said, “Why don't you come through this weekend? I've got some friends coming.” We used to play Newmarket. Cards. I said yeah. I wrote back and said, “Alright. I’ll come.” So, I packed my little case. That was on the Saturday, 2 o’clock and went to Dorothy and she said, ‘Wait, I've got some friends coming tonight. There's Danny Culkin and he's got a nephew. He’s in the Air Force.’ I said, ‘Oh, OK.’ ‘He doesn't know anyone here. So, you know, play Newmarket cards. Snap. Anything.’ And sure enough Uncle Danny came with another friend and Jack. And Jack. Oh my God. That was it. It went [pat pat]. But he was so shy. He really was so shy. Really. There's some photographs in there you can see. He, he had three sisters. You’d think he’d be used to women but he was with boys you see. He joined the RAF at fifteen. It was all boys, and he was just very shy. I met him twice. He didn't know me. Not really. He knew my name playing cards and what not. And then eventually you see, the war was coming on and Dorothy wrote and she said, ‘Do you know what, Jean? I think, why don’t you come through this weekend? I don't know how long Jackie will be here.’ Because his uncle said he might be going soon. ‘Where are they going?’ ‘I don't know.’ So I did. I went for that weekend and funnily enough Dorothy said to me, ‘I'm washing my hair tonight, Jack so I can't take you to the bus stop. I'll tell you what. Our Jean will take you.’ Oh God. Pouring with rain outside. Head square, riding mac on and we walked. It was only a ten minute walk to the bus station because he had to go to Durham. You see his squadron was at Durham. He’d finished his training by the. And then the bus came for Durham. He said, ‘Oh, I have to go.’ Then he gave me a kiss. And he sat on the back seat on the bus and he just waved like that. And that was it for the next three years.
SK: Five years [laughs]
JC: Five [laughs] Three and a half years I think because then Dorothy had written to me and said, ‘Hey, how’s about, they’re always on —’ because her fiancé who was taken prisoner of war, Ralph in Germany. He'd only been in the Army, he was called up, he’d only been I think eighteen months and he was a prisoner of war. So Dorothy said, ‘Tell you what, Jean. Why don't you write to Jackie Culkin because I'm writing. I'll send you his address.’ So, I thought, ‘Yeah. Ok.’ So I started writing. And that was it. For the next three and a half years. At the start he didn’t know me. I knew him. He didn’t know me. And that was it. And we’d been writing how many? Two years. Two years, because he was away what, three, three years, wasn't he? So, two years we'd been writing and then he said, “Why don't we get engaged? By proxy.” Yeah. Alright then. So, we got engaged by proxy.
CH: How old were you both then?
JC: Twenty. And Jack was twenty one. Yeah. Twenty one and a half. There was eighteen months between us. And we had the proxy engagement party at my cousin Dorothy's house and Jack’s mum, a wonderful cook, she made cakes. My mum made scones. Rationing, you know. And that was it. I didn't have a ring so Jack’s, Nanna Culkin said, ‘Look, Jean, here, take mine off.’ Gave it to dad and he put it on my finger. He said, ‘Right. You’re now engaged to my son.’ Lovely. But I hadn’t seen him. I mean, it was just writing. You see, I think when you write letters you open your heart out, don't you? And that was it. Then of course how long did I have to wait? It was another eighteen months before he came home because don't forget he was in the Middle East and the war was not, and eventually Shirley the youngest sister wrote a letter and said, ‘Our Jack’s coming home so you'll have to get some holiday.” Which I did. God. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. It must have been worse for him because Nanna Culkin, she was a wonderful cook and I think she spoiled him when he first came, you know. After the war. After the desert he wouldn't eat. And I could never ever buy a tin of corned beef. He used to say, ‘Jean, never ever buy corned beef. Bully beef.’ That's what they lived on. He wouldn't have corned beef in the house [laughs] He wouldn’t. Yeah. So that was it more or less. I had to go through to Sunderland of course and he got there on the Saturday afternoon. I thought he would open the front door. Don't forget I hadn't seen him all this time. Just writing. But he hadn’t and it was his sister that opened the door. ‘Oh, come on in Jean’ I had my little attache case for my whats, my nightdress, no pyjamas I think in those days, dressing gown blah blah and his mam came through. She said, ‘He's not well.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘He's been sick all night. He’s killed the goldfish.’ ‘Pardon?’ The goldfish was in a bowl in the main bedroom and he was sick. There was nowhere to be sick. So when he came he said, ‘I've killed Goldie.’
SK: I think it was nerves because it was such a long time.
JC: It was because, you know what nanna was like for cooking and I think she gave him too much food and he hadn't been used to food. Anyhow, I had to sleep with the girls in that room and Jack was in the main bedroom and nanna and grandad were in the spare room and of course nanna, you know what she was like. Up in the morning. ‘Our Jack, come on get up. Jean’s already up.’ I got up, went to the bathroom, changed, you know. Cleaned my teeth and whatever. Did my hair.
SK: And you still hadn’t seen him.
JC: No. I still hadn’t seen him. I was in the kitchen where the cooker was there. Nanna was doing the breakfast and he came down clunk clunk clunk. Oh my God. He just came over and just said, ‘Oh, how are you?’ And just kissed me on the cheek. That was, so Nanna said, ‘What do you want for breakfast, son?’ He said, ‘Nothing. Just toast.’ And he was looking at me and you see it was just writing but he used to say when you write to someone you pour your heart out, don’t you? And that was it. We had toast and a cup of tea and mum said, ‘Right. Go for a walk. Dinner,’ this was Sunday, ‘Dinner is on the table at 1 o'clock.’ And when she said 1 o'clock, she meant it. So, she said, ‘Go on. Take take your girlfriend out.’ So we had Thompson’s Park and he was actually holding my hand. Yeah. And then he said, ‘Can I kiss you?’ I said, ‘If you wish.’ And that was it, and he looked at his watch and he said, ‘Five to one. We’d better get home.’ Because it was only a ten minute walk and of course the dinner was on the table and all the family were there, you know. His sisters and two brothers. That was it. And then I was going to help Aunt Anne wash up. You know, do the washing up and mam said, ‘No. Go on our Jack. Get out. Get yourself down to Seaburn by the seaside. Fresh air.’ And we spent the afternoon at Seaburn. Walking in Seaburn.
SK: But then unfortunately the two families didn’t get on, did they?
JC: Not really. At the time, don’t forget we were engaged, weren’t we and my dad said, ‘Right, we’ll make —’ There was still rationing going on, ‘We can have a little wedding, you know. It’ll be, we can't afford a lot. At Newcastle, St Gabriel’s?’ ‘Yeah. That’s right.’ Jack said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. I don’t mind.’ Through to Sunderland and mum said, ‘No. No. You’ve got to get married in the church at the end of road.’ And I said, ‘Well, my dad wants, I've lived in Newcastle and all my friends are there.’ No. Arguments started. Your dad had, he'd gone back to wherever and that was it. He said, ‘I can't stand this, Jean.’ He used to come home every other weekend because you only got so many railway warrants a year, didn’t you. ‘I can’t stand this.’ So, he came one weekend. He said, ‘I’ll be at Sunderland this weekend. Ok?’ So, I thought, ‘Right. Yes, ok. I’m going through. See what’s going to happen and I got there and there’s Jack’s sister and mam and his other sister sitting by the window. You know, on the settee. And he said, he looked awful. I said, ‘What's wrong?’ He said, ‘I've had a busy week at work.’ He said, ‘But can I speak to you privately? Is it alright mum? I’m just going to take Jean upstairs. I’ve got something to say.’ And I thought, ‘That’s it. It’s off.’ So, we went upstairs, sat on the bed and he closed the door and then he said, ‘Don’t say anything.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Shush.’ And then he opened the door. He thought somebody might have gone upstairs listening. So, he said, ‘Don’t get upset. I said downstairs the wedding is off for the time being. It isn't. It’s on. We’re getting married August the 21st, Weston Super Mare Town Hall. I’ve got a special licence. I’ve booked a room in a farmhouse just on the outskirts of RAF Locking.’ Which was the Air Force then. ‘So that’s it. I’ll send you your ticket.’ How the heck he did that from Weston Super Mare I don’t know but he did. So, I got the, I got the train. I packed my case and I had it for two weeks holiday and my mom said, ‘Right. Send us a card when you get there to make sure you’re alright.’ So, I said, ‘Yes. Alright.’ Got the bus from Simonside [unclear] to Newcastle Central. I think it was the 10 o’clock train to Bristol Temple Meads because Jack said he’d meet me there at 4 o’clock when the train got in. And I’d got my case and this and that with me and I thought, ‘My God, what if he isn’t there? I’ve got ten shillings in my purse and he’s not there.’ I thought, Oh God. And it was hours, you know. The 10 o’clock train got in to Temple Meads at four and sure enough he was there. Oh, thank God. So, I said, ‘What now?’ He said, ‘Right. We’ve got to get the bus to Weston Super Mare.’ Now to RAF Locking it’s the village. t’s actually, it’s a farmhouse and she rents out rooms so we’ve got that for the next week. And then we’re off to Bournemouth for a week. Ok?’ ‘Alright then.’ So, I take my little case in and Jack said, ‘Right. We’re getting married on the Wednesday so I’ll see you —’ This was Saturday. Sunday. He said, ‘I’ll see you on Monday morning. I want to bring my civvy stuff here because I’ve got to lock up and clear from the station.’ So, I said, so I was all by myself in this strange place but the landlady was very nice. She took me around where the farm was, you know. It was growing apples and stuff and whatnot. I wasn’t in the least interested but you’ve got to say yes. Yeah. So I was in B&B for two days and then your father came with his civvies and what not. He wouldn’t get married in uniform. I said, ‘Oh, please.’ ‘No. No. No. I wear a uniform all day.’ Hmmn hmmn. And he wouldn’t. He just had his best suit on, you know. RAF tie. He left me there, and then he came on the Wednesday morning. We were married at 3.15. He came and he put his case in and his uniform ready to go back to work and what not and on the morning of the wedding I didn’t see, I saw him that night and he said, ‘Right. I’ll see you tomorrow.’ And he came, we were married at quarter past three and he came at 12 o’clock. The lady made him a cup of tea and whatnot. You know, the landlady and whatnot and then we got the bus into Weston Super Mare to the Town Hall. We had to be there at 3.15 and the best man was a corporal. He was getting married on the following Wednesday. So we went, and he had his fiancé. She wanted to meet me. So we go in front of the registrar and he said, ‘Right. Yes. Alright. Sergeant Culkin?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘And you are Jean Dodds.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘And you are —’ What was his name? Oh God. I can’t remember his name now. I can’t remember the best man’s name but he was, he was a corporal. Yes. That’s right. And the registrar and, oh Florence, his fiancé was there as well. She was one of the witnesses, and the registrar said, ‘Right. Yes.’ And he said to Florence, ‘How old are you, Florence?’ She said, ‘I’m eighteen.’ He said, ‘You can not be a witness. You’re eighteen. You’ve got to be twenty one.’ You did in those days. So the registrar said to one of the clerks, ‘You’re going to have to get somebody.’ So we walked down the street and this man, ‘Can you register the wedding with us?’ And he came in. Who he was I don’t know. Yes. And that was it. We got married and the registrar said, ‘It is exactly the same as a church wedding. We’ve got no hymns, we’ve got no bells and we’ve got no confetti but it is legal. Oh, and by the way the Bishop of Bath and Wells is in the next office. Would you like him to officiate?’ I said, ‘Oh yes.’ And Jack said, ‘No. Would you get on with it please.’ And he wouldn’t have the Bishop of Bath and Wells. Next door. I thought well this is it, you know. I thought it was just the same as the church wedding but there’s no hymns, no bells, no nothing. But it is legal. Yeah.
CH: So nobody knew you were getting married.
JC: No. So we got outside and John, the best man, John Turner, he said, ‘Right. I've got to go. I've got to see where Florence is. She's around here somewhere.’ So off they went. He said, ‘I’d better take a photograph.’ We didn't have a camera. So, he took the photograph. Otherwise, we wouldn't have that photograph. So off they went and your dad said, ‘I'm starving.’ And I said, ‘I'm absolutely parched.’ He said, ‘First of all there’s a Post Office over there. Let’s go over, get a card each. One to your mum and dad and one to my mum and dad.’ Which we did. “Dear mum and dad, arrived safely. Yes, Jack met me at the station. Oh, by the way we were married at 3.15 this afternoon. See you in two weeks. Love Jean and Jack.”
CH: Wonderful.
JC: So this, this is what he wrote to his mum and dad. A card. That was it.
SK: Nanna would have loved that.
JC: Eh?
SK: Nanna Culkin would have loved that.
JC: [unclear] Well, she’d have been, you know. So we did and I said, ‘Now what?’ He said, ‘Oh, let’s go and have something to eat.’ So we had, remember Fortes? The catering people? Before your time. Fortes. Yeah. There was a cafeteria. Straight in there. Tea for two. Steak, egg and chips. Brown bread and butter. White bread and butter. No, I don't think we had a cake afterwards. No. Don't forget things were still rationed.
SK: You didn’t have any money, did you?
JC: No. I had, I think I had ten shillings and your father had forty. Forty quid. A lot of money.
SK: But luckily dad found some jewellery, didn’t he?
JC: No. It was a cigarette box. We’d had, we finished with Locking. The village of Locking. Then we had to get to [pause] where was it? Bournemouth. That was it. We had to get to Bournemouth. So we had to get, I think we got the bus to Bournemouth because we had a room for four days, five days, I think in Bournemouth. Yeah.
SK: Where did dad find the —
JC: Oh, yeah. That was, we were out one morning walking and we said, ‘Right. Let’s go and have a cup of tea.’ It was all tea in those days not coffee and he, he knocked something and I said, ‘Well, that’s shiny. What the heck’s that?’ And it was a cigarette case. Picked it up, opened it, nothing inside. So, he said, ‘Hey, I know. What if I find a jeweller shop? Maybe we could sell.’ I said, ‘Can’t you take it to the police?’ ‘No. Finders keepers.’ So, we went into this little shop and they said, ‘I’ll give you —’ I think it was five pounds. So, we had five pounds. Yeah. That made us rich. I didn't have any money left by then but your dad had his fiver.
SK: Didn't dad by a silk shirt or something?
JC: Oh, that was, that was our last day at Bournemouth. There was a sale on at this gent’s shop. We were looking in the window and he said, ‘Oh, look at that shirt.’ It was silk. Brown. A very light brown with a little stripe in. I think it was about three pounds. Something like that. I said, ‘Oh, go on. Get it.’ So he, yeah he got, out of that money that we got for the cigarette case we went to the cinema with that and we were able to eat. Don't forget we were only B&B. Then he bought this shirt. Yes. Silk shirt. It was lovely. It was a fawny brownie.
SK: So, somebody’s probably at home now saying oh that silk shirt —
JC: Yeah. That shirt. So that was Bournemouth. Yeah. That was it.
SK: Well done, mum.
JC: Do you reckon?
[recording paused]
CH: OK. Jane, if you could tell me something about your husband, Jack. Please.
JC: Yeah. He was born in Sunderland, 14th of May 1923. He had three sisters and two brothers. They lived in a council flat in the East End of Sunderland. His dad was a tugboat skipper. He used to bring the big ships into the River Wear, you know and he was on, I suppose shift work. He couldn’t, he didn’t, never had a nine to five job. Yeah. Dad was lovely. Yeah. As I say three sisters and two brothers. Two brothers. So six children altogether. Yes. But the flat was so small that his two brothers had to go and live with an auntie. Aunt Anne at the other end of town. It was only a two-bedroom flat you see and you can't have boys and girls sleeping together. No good. Yeah. Then he went to a local school and then he went to Sunderland Junior Tech. I think he was fifteen. Yeah. He was fifteen when he was [pause] Yeah he was fifteen years old and he told me that he was coming out of the gate at night, you know, after school and there was this man standing giving out leaflets and he gave it to all the boys. All these boys got a leaflet. So when he got home mum was, ‘Empty your pockets.’ Marbles and everything and there was this piece of paper in there and she had a look in there and said, ‘Oh, I'll let dad have a look at this.’ So when dad came in from work about 8 o'clock that night he said, ‘Oh, look they’re wanting, it’s the Royal Air Force. They’re wanting apprentices. What do you think about that, Jack?’ He said, ‘No. I want to be a draughtsman. I want to go to sea.’ He said, ‘Well, no. Look. Look. What I'll do I'll write a letter to this address and tell them blah blah blah and we may get a reply. We might not.’ Sure enough the next week there came a reply and it was a railway warrant. He'd never been out, he’d never been out of Sunderland. He was fifteen. First time on a train on his own. Down to King’s Cross to see the RTO which is what it said on this paper and the RTO took him to the other side of the station and he got a train to RAF Halton. And that's when it all started. He met other guys and what not. I think he was there for about two weeks. Did PE and just, they were just talking about the RAF and what they wanted to be, you now. He had a medical. He passed the medical. And then they said, ‘Right. You can go home now and we’ll let you know.’ So getting home he told mum and dad and they said, ‘Oh, that’s it then.' Sure enough a week later there was a train warrant for RAF Halton and that was the beginning.
CH: And how old was he then?
JC: I think he was sixteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. So, from the very beginning because the very first time I saw him before he went to war he had sort of silver thing on here and that was to say he was an apprentice. Part of the uniform. Because I used to think that's funny, normally you get stripes or what not but it was on the arm. Yeah. And being shy I didn't like to ask him, ‘What’s that for?’ That's about it, I think.
CH: Did he tell you much about his time at RAF Halton? He was known as a Halton brat wasn't he?
JC: That's right. Yes. A brat. Right. There's a lovely photograph in there if you want to look at it. Yes. All boys. All boys. Yeah. He enjoyed it. I think at the first week he was actually there I think they went into this huge hall and there were these guys sitting at a table and as you came you know along here you sat there and they’d say, ‘What would you like to do if we accept you in the Royal Air Force?’ He said, ‘I like cars. I like bicycles.’ ‘Engineering.’ And that was it. So he was put on a course for airframes and engines. That was it, you know. Did all his training there and everything. Getting up the PTI used to come into the room where all the guys were sleeping. I think it was six o'clock. ‘Right. Out of bed, shorts on, toilet, we're going for a run.’ Summer and winter 6 o'clock. And he ran, I think for about a mile. Get back. Straight into the shower. Get your work clothes on, your overalls and then have breakfast and then go to your classroom. And that was it until about 5 o'clock at night. Then probably have homework, then have dinner, change of clothes, have another shower, change of clothes, and then do your homework ready for the next day. And that was it. Yeah. So a busy time. Yeah.
CH: So, did you know Jack then when he was apprentice?
JC: Not really. Not really. I knew with my cousin I knew of him you see. His name and whatnot but that was about it. No.
CH: Did you meet up with him when he came back on leave?
JC: Yes. Of course, in those days leave was few and far between, you know. A forty-eight if you were lucky. And there was one weekend I was through at my cousin’s because she had written me to say, “Jackie Culkin is coming this weekend. You’d better come because you might not see him for a month.” So I went that weekend and the usual thing, you know playing cards, you know and whatnot. And that was the last time I saw him until three and a half years later. He didn't realise at the time that was embarkation leave. But of course, you can’t, you don’t say anything, you know. Yes. That was embarkation leave. Yeah. So that was when I started writing. I thought I’d carry on because my cousin, her fiancé had been taken prisoner so she said, ‘I’ll write to Ralph, Jean but you’ve got to, you know start writing to Jack.’ And he told me the last time he saw England, because two of the guys were quite well to do and they had a car, a two-seater racing car and so one of them said, ‘What will we do with this?’ And the corporal in charge the whole lot said, ‘Nothing we can do. It’ll just have to stay in the hangar.’ ‘But where am I going? I’m going overseas.’ ‘Sorry.’ So they just had to leave the cars.’ And of course, they weren't there three and a half years later, were they?’ Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the story Jack told me. Yeah.
CH: What do you know about Jack's time in the RAF war broke out?
JC: Not a lot. But you see it was all Yorkshire. He was on the bombers. The Halifax bomber. It’s the same as the bombers here. I was told the name Halifax. Lord Halifax was a Yorkshireman, and they had these big bombers and they said, ‘Right. What are we going to call this one is the Halifax.’ Because Lord Halifax had a lot of money and he backed them. That’s the story that your dad told me.
SK: But he went off to Italy. Or North Africa?
JC: Yes. Yeah. He went, because Monty was with the 8th Army. I think they were behind the 8th Army. I’m not sure. Or they perhaps they loaded the aeroplane up, dropped the bombs and then Monty would come up. He was with the 8th Army. He was attached to them. Yes. Definitely.
SK: And then he went to Italy.
JC: Yes. Yes.
SK: And which side were Italy on then? Our side? Was that when they, because dad liked the Italians, didn't he?
JC: Oh yes. He loved Italy, yes. He liked the Italians. They were very friendly. Very friendly.
SK: Were they on our side then?
JC: Oh definitely. Yes. But don’t forget Italy capitulated in the beginning. Oh yeah, they were very kind because when they were in the desert if they were near a farmhouse one of the lads would say, ‘Right. Geordie. Jack, I'm going to that farmhouse, see if we can get some eggs.’ So what the RAF lads used to do, they used to get these food bags from the UK and it was tea bags and of course these had all this tea, the lads in the hangar had the tea and then the dried tea bags they would take to the farmer and the farmer would give them six eggs for one tea bag and little did they know the tea had already been done. That was cheating, wasn’t it? Honestly. That’s what he told me [laughs] So, that was awful. You shouldn't do that. He said, ‘No. When you're young and in the middle of the desert waiting for Monty to do something.’ Yeah.
CH: I’m just looking at Jack’s notes that he made.
JC: Yes.
CH: It says that in 1939, when war with Germany was declared he was transferred back to RAF Halton to finalise the shortened apprentice training.
JC: Yeah.
CH: And he passed out as an Aircraftsman First Class.
JC: Yes.
CH: And he was not classified as still under eighteen years of age and not eligible for [man’s] service.
JC: That's right. Yeah. He was still a boy entrant.
CH: And then in 1940 he was posted to Number 4 Group Headquarters at Heslington Hall in York.
JC: Yeah.
CH: And it says after a cup of tea he was sent to Number 4 Group, Bomber Command Communication Flight, Rawcliffe Lane, Clifton, York.
JC: Rawcliffe, yeah.
CH: And it says here, “Apprentice J Culkin became a popular airman to take around on site visits to look after aircraft and to do starting drills. Eventually most staff officers took an interest in showing the apprentice how to fly and allowing him to take the controls of most of the flights. He became a very good flyer.”
JC: Yes.
CH: And on the 2nd of July he was re-classified Aircraftsman First Class and now classified to carry out the duties of Fitter 2 on engines on all —
JC: Yeah.
CH: RAF aircraft.
JC: Yeah.
CH: He worked on flight aircraft including the Westland Lysander, a Hawker Hurricane, Supermarine Spitfire, Albatross, the Bristol Blenheim, the Bristol Botha, Handley Page.
JC: Yes.
CH: And then on the 3rd of December he was posted to 35 Squadron RAF Leeming in Yorkshire which was the first squadron equipped with the Handley Page Halifax bomber.
JC: Yeah.
CH: Did he ever talk much about flying the Halifax?
JC: No. I think he enjoyed it. I think he enjoyed it. Yes. Because he knew that the lads that he worked with were good engineers. He knew that aeroplane would fly. Definitely. Yeah. He was good to the lads.
CH: Do you know what was actually his role?
JC: What? As an aircraft fitter? Teaching. Teaching them to use the tools properly. You know. Because we were stationed in Germany weren't we? What was the first when you went to boarding school.
CH: Hildesheim.
JC: Hildesheim. It was RAF Hildesheim, wasn’t it? And that was the Army Air Corps and we were the only RAF people, all the others were Army and Jack had to train some of the Army boys how to service the helicopter. And they used to come to work in hobnail boots and he’d say, ‘There’s no way you're getting on that aeroplane with those boots. Go back. Get your plimsolls on.’ Yeah. Hildesheim RAF Hildesheim] yeah. We were the only RAF people there. What was dad? Sergeant. Flight Sergeant then.
SK: Flight sergeant.
JC: Flight sergeant I think he was. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, Major Begby, in charge of the whole lot we were coming back to the UK and he said, ‘Look Jack. Why don't you come with us?’ ‘What?’ ‘Join the Army. You’re a sergeant now. If you join the Army now in six months you’d be a staff sergeant. Then you’d get warrant.’ I think Warrant Number 2 and then you’d go Warrant Number 1 he said. He came home. He said, ‘What do you think, Jean. What about the Army?’ I said, ‘The Army? No. I want to stay with the RAF. I like the RAF.’ And with the Army you move in a battalion. With the RAF, you’re single, you know. You know, you’re posted. A sergeant posted here. Corporal posted there. But you’re not in a group so you’re with the same people all the time. I said, ‘No. I like the RAF.’ So that was it. We stayed with the RAF.
CH: I’m just going back to Jack’s notes. It says in 1941 he sat and passed the Trade Test Examination and was re-classed leading aircraftsman and is now heading a modification team working on such projects such as fitting all squadron aircraft with propeller de-icing systems.
JC: Yes.
CH: Modifying air intake and modifying engine controls and the station was bombed on several occasions with the station commander being killed.
JC: That would be in Yorkshire. RAF. Dishforth? No. [pause] It doesn't say does it? No.
CH: It says he flew, so he was posted to 76 Squadron at RAF Middleton St George.
JC: Yes.
CH: County Durham.
JC: Yes. Yes.
CH: And he flew with the squadron to Tain in Scotland with a full bomb load aboard.
JC: Yes.
CH: Waited several days for the weather to clear and for the squadron to bomb the German pockets battleship. The Tirpitz.
JC: Yes.
CH: It was hard work and long hours.
JC: Yeah.
CH: And he was now in charge of a maintenance crew responsible for one Halifax bomber.
JC: That’s right.
CH: And then in 1942 he mentions a court martial. Would you like to tell me something about that?
JC: All I know about this he was one minute late. It was his turn to do guard duty and he was one minute late and the corporal in charge said, ‘Right. I’m going to charge you, Culkin. You are one minute late.’ ‘But corp, I was working on an aeroplane.’ Anyhow, the Group Captain found out about this as it goes in orders and he had the two of them in front of him and he said, ‘Do you know what corporal? The thing is this young boy is working on an aeroplane. Perhaps he's got one screw to fit in. One minute late. Admonished. No. You go back to work, Culkin.’ That was it. He could have been court martialled for one minute late. But they had to be like that, you know.
SK: [unclear]
JC: As your dad, I mean, you know you’ve got two stripes on your arm. Wow.
CH: It actually says this happened on his nineteenth birthday.
JC: Yeah. His nineteenth birthday. Yes. Just before he went overseas.
CH: That was in May and then on the 10th of July all the squadron aircraft and selected crews and personnel took off in the early hours for a mission in the Middle East and he was one of them. They planned to fly and land at Mersa in North Africa.
JC: Yeah.
CH: Via Gibraltar. It took a few days to service the aircraft and load the bombs, fly back to base by flying over southern Italy and bomb the Italian fleet at Taranto. Over the Alps and back to base. A total tour of sixteen days. Did he ever talk about that much?
JC: No.
CH: No.
JC: Not things like that. No.
CH: If we go forward a little bit to when you got married which year, what year was that in?
JC: 1946. Yeah.
CH: So, the war had finished.
JC: Yes. Yes.
CH: Would you like to carry on about your life together then?
JC: It was, it was wonderful. Not a lot of money around. I mean the pay wasn't very good. He was stationed at RAF locking and we had to live in rooms. I’d never been away from home any length of time. He eventually got us the first set of rooms. There was a bedrooms and the use of the kitchen. That was on the main road in Weston Super Mare. We were there for about two weeks. Jack used to go on his cycle, go to work and I used to just potter around in the bedroom and then think, oh, I'll go for a little walk. We were there for two weeks and then the landlady decided, ‘I'm sorry but you're going to have to go. I've got summer visitors coming.’ ‘Pardon? We've only been here two weeks.’ ‘Well, I’m sorry. You've paid the rent so you know, you can go.’ And we had to go and find accommodation. Little did we know that this was a council house on the main road and you're not supposed to sublet. So someone had obviously said mmm mmm because seeing Jack in uniform. Yeah. So somebody said. So, then we had, he had to go back to the mess and find out the roster where rooms, you know were. We did eventually get a couple of rooms but oh living with someone. Having your bedroom which you had to keep tidy which was fair enough. Use of the kitchen. Oh. Which the landlady put some money in the gas and I'd come in, ‘Oh, you can’t use that. That’s mine. You can come in half an hour and use your area.’ Oh, it was awful but you're young you know. Twenty two nearly. That was it. So we had three lots of rooms while we were, no married quarters in those days. Then eventually I found out I was pregnant. I thought oh great. Jack said, ‘Do you want to stay at Weston?’ I said, ‘No. No. I want to go home to my mum.’ So we came back. Yes. Oh, and then he had to go to RAF Locking and continue. I think he was teaching there. I’m not sure. So I stayed at home and went to see the doctor and whatnot and Dr Goodman says, ‘Get on there. Let me have a look.’ And my mum was standing by me. He felt my tummy. He said, ‘Yeah. When was your last period?’ January the what? 5th. Just a minute. October the 12th your baby is due.’ So, I said, ‘Ooh hospital.’ He said, ‘Oh no. Well, you're late. When you get pregnant you’ve got to come and see me ASAP. You can’t leave it two times, three times. You can’t. We’re all full up. I’m sorry. You’re having the baby at home.’ I said, ‘Oh, ok then.’ So, mum was with me and she said, ‘That’s alright.’ So Dr Goodman said, ‘There’s a midwife lives in your area. I’ll send her. Her name is Mrs Bowmaker so she’ll come and see you. Probably tomorrow.’ And that was it. So she was born at home. It was lovely because Mrs Bowmaker just lived around the corner. She was our local nurse. Yeah. Remember names. It's amazing. She was lovely. She really was.
SK: When did you join dad again then?
JC: After you were born. I think it was the end of January. You are born October. It must have been January, February because where was he posted then?
SK: Debden.
JC: Yes. RAF Debden. That’s right. And we got a married quarter. Yeah. Our first married quarter.
SK: But I can remember before, where was it we had to queue outside in the cold for food? That horrible place.
JC: RAF [pause] RAF Croft which is just on the outskirts because your dad was posted to Padgate. RAF Padgate, and just on the outskirts, RAF Croft waiting for the married quarters to be built in, it was Canberra Square. That was the married quarter we got. We had to live at RAF Croft. Oh, John was in his pram wasn’t he?
SK: You were like Nissen huts, weren’t they?
JC: That’s right. Yeah. They were Nissen huts.
SK: Awful. And we used to have to queue outside.
JC: We had to. Yes. Breakfast we had to eat with the airmen. All the people, RAF people coming back from overseas. Wives you know and sisters and brothers and all coming back to RAF Croft. Nissen huts they were literally. And we were given two rooms in a Nissen hut because we had two children. Group captain’s inspection every Thursday morning and I think did you go to like a Kindergarten?
SK: I just remember queuing for food, mum.
JC: Yes.
SK: With the [twins]
JC: We had to go to the main mess hall, didn’t we? Because John was in the pram wasn’t he?
SK: I can remember mounds of coke and coal.
JC: That’s right. Yes, that’s right.
SK: You had to queue and go nearer and nearer the [unclear]
JC: Yeah. I know.
CH: So this Nissen hut. This was for you?
JC: Yeah.
CH: Or families.
JC: Families coming back from Egypt and you name it. Coming back from overseas. Aden.
CH: Do you remember which year this was?
JC: Our John. What year was —
SK: I can remember queuing [unclear]
JC: John was, you must have been four five. Five. He was five. What year was that?
SK: In fact, you said that a lot of the women whose husbands weren’t there were doing things they shouldn’t be.
JC: That's right because they were dumped there. The wives and kids were dumped there you see
SK: And dad was court martialled nearly there wasn’t he?
JC: Yeah, because he ah that was because we had a smelly drain. We had two rooms, didn’t we? We had a drain outside and he said, ‘This is disgusting. This really is.’ So he went to his superior and he said, ‘Right, we’ll see what we can do for you sergeant.’ They didn’t do anything about it.
SK: The families officer came around didn’t she?
JC: Yes. Yeah. Wondering what we were complaining about and the smell was awful because it was all the nasty stuff you know.
CH: What facilities did you have in the Nissen hut?
JC: We had a table and four chairs. A dining table in one room. And in the other room was, Sue was in a bedroom. Was John in the same bedroom because he was a baby then. I can’t remember.
SK: I can’t remember. All I can remember is queuing for food.
JC: Food. Yes. Because we had to go to the mess hall for food. There was no cooking facilities in the Nissen huts. None at all. So we had to be up and be at the mess hall for seven, 7.30 when the corporal behind, you know, the cooks used to say, ‘Right. What do you want?’ Bacon, egg blah blah blah. ‘Oh, and you’ve got a baby. I can give you an extra pint of milk,’ because John was a baby. Yeah. And it was awful wasn’t it really. Did you, you didn’t —
CH: Did you have shared toilets?
JC: Well, the toilet was right at the end of the Nissen hut. Yes. We shared a toilet. All these people coming from the Middle East and whatnot you know.
CH: And how long did you live in that for?
JC: Well, we were waiting for a married quarter at Padgate. I think we were there about five months. Four months. Five months.
SK: I can remember moving in to Padgate.
JC: Yes. Padgate. Brand new quarters. Canberra Square. Lovely because Sue was about six.
SK: No, not that old. I’ve got a picture on my [Gresham] Flyer haven’t I?
JC: Oh yes. Yes.
SK: With John on the back. John would then be about two I suppose.
JC: Two. Yes.
SK: I’d be about five.
JC: Well, there was three and a half years difference roughly but yes. Eventually got a married quarter. It was lovely.
CH: What year was this then that you moved to Padgate?
SK: I’d be [ ]
JC: You were about —
SK: ’53.
JC: Yeah. You were.
SK: Fifty —
JC: Were you eight or seven?
SK: No. Not that old.
JC: Eh? Were you older?
SK: It was when dad went to Aden.
JC: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CH: Ok. So you were at, moved into married quarters at RAF Padgate.
JC: Padgate. Yes. Yeah. Brand new married quarters. Beautiful. I think we were there for about eighteen months weren’t we? And then your dad was PWR. Right. Preliminary Warning Roster. So he was put, he had to go and get his jabs and whatnot and he was going to go to Aden. Khormaksar. It was either Steamer Point or Khormaksar and he was going to Khormaksar. I’m not sure whether they had a helicopter there or [pause] I don’t know what the aeroplanes were really. He was there what —
SK: We were supposed to join him weren’t we?
JC: Yes. We were joining. We were supposed to be. It was a two year tour. You had to wait one year for a married quarter so if the wives and families went out it would be twelve months. Jack was there for about six months but before he went away he said, ‘Right You have your inoculations. Leave the children because [TBT] was a nasty one. It makes you feel ill. So I thought, ‘Right.’ I’ll go up to the Medical Centre and have my inoculations. What not. The children could have theirs later. He’d been out there I think six months if that. Sue’s birthday was coming up October so mam came down. Auntie Mary with Steve and Alan. Nana Culkin came. October the 12th. Your birthday. Great. So we’d all been in to town. We did some shopping. Cakes and blah blah. Came back and there was a notice on the letterbox.” Urgent.” I though oh good. We’ve got a married quarter. Went in. Emptied the shopping. I thought, oh I’ll open this. “Dear Mrs Culkin, sorry to inform you —” I thought, what? “Your husband is seriously ill in hospital. The CO will get in touch with you.” I thought, oh my God. So mum, Jack’s mum said, ‘It’s alright. Auntie Mary and I will look after the kids. You go and see someone.’ So it was only about a ten minute walk to the actual entrance to the offices and whatnot. The headquarters. So I went around there, saw the corporal. He said, ‘Oh, I’ll see if the groupie is in and he will see you, Mrs Culkin.’ So I waited for about ten minutes. Then the group captain, ‘Would you come in please.’ So I went in, sat down and he said, ‘I had a signal from Khormaksar this morning. I’m sorry to tell you that your husband is seriously ill.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘He’s had a stomach ulcer that burst.’ He said, ‘I’m getting more information. You got the telegram?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well, I’m on the wire all the time. I get it before you.’ So I said, ‘Yeah. What happens now?’ He said, ‘Well, have you had your innoculations?’ I said, ‘Yes. I’m up to date. I had them before my husband left.’ He said, ‘Because maybe this week I could fly you out. It depends. Who could look after the children?’’ That’s ok. Somebody would.’ So he said, ‘Could you come and see me tomorrow at 9 o’clock? I’ll have another signal by then.’ I said, ‘Yes. Certainly.’ So I came home. That was Sue’s party. So I went around the next morning. He saw me straight away. He said, ‘Right. Sit down.’ I thought, oh this is terrible. He said, ‘No. There’s been a slight improvement. He’s taking tablespoons of goat’s milk.’ No cows over there. It’s goat’s milk. ‘He can’t eat anything but he’s having these tablespoons of goats milk. He’s been unconscious for over twenty four hours but now he’s coming around,’ from whatever, you know. The MOs quite worried about him but we’ll keep you in touch.’ So the group captain said, ‘I’m not flying you out. I don’t want to do that now. Come and see me tomorrow at 9 o’clock if you will.’ I said, ‘Yes, certainly.’ I went around and he said, ‘Good news Mrs Culkin. He’s much better. He’s not taking food but he’s drinking milk. It’s goat’s milk. No cows in Aden.’ So, he said, ‘I’ll be on to them again sometime tomorrow. But you can come and see me tomorrow any time. Whatever time you wish. I’ll have time for you.’ And so I had to come back and tell the family blah blah blah. Mary had to get home because the boys had to do schooling and what not. I think Nanna Culkin had to go home. So there was just Jean and Sue and John. I went and saw him the next day, the groupie and he said, ‘Good news. I'm not flying you. Your husband has gained consciousness and we don't know whether he is going to finish tour out there. I said, ‘Oh, we’re probably near the top of the housing list.’ He said, ‘Oh that’s the by and by. No.’ And sure enough the next day the corporal came around the next day. ‘Sorry, Mrs Culkin, ‘I don't think you're going to Aden.’ ‘I’m not going. Oh, that’s sad.’ He said, ‘Don’t be sad. It’s an awful place. If you see the group captain on Friday he’ll fill you in.’ So I had to go and see him again on Friday. He said, ‘You're not going out. We’re going to get your husband back.’ I said, ‘Back. I thought I’d enjoy it out there.’ ‘No. No. No. No. So, you'll just have to stay in your married quarter and we’ll let you know when your husband’s home.’ He’d probably come home by I don’t think aeroplane because in those days aeroplanes didn’t fly as much for families. I think he was coming home on the Empire Windrush. He came, that's right. Oh you were at sea for —
SK: Was that the one the one they used for the West Indians?
JC: No. It blew up eventually. The Empire Windrush. Yeah. The next. Your dad got home from the Empire Windrush. Right. And he had a months leave. He had to go and see the doctor. The MO. Sick quarters every other day because of his tummy and what not. But the next time the Windrush came it blew up. So he missed it. Yeah. Yeah, he missed it.
SK: That was good luck there then.
JC: I know. I know. Then he was put on lighter duties. I think its A4G4 something it’s called. When you’re not A1 you’re A4G4. So he was on the bottom because of his tummy ulcer and he thought My God. Now, I’ve got to get myself fit to be A1, which he did. Then that was it about Padgate I think.
CH: What job was Jack doing then?
JC: Sorry?
CH: When he came back from Aden what, what job was he doing?
JC: He was, at Padgate he was teaching the old apprentices. Aircraft apprentices. One level to another doing modules. Is that what they’re called? Yes. He was teaching. Yeah. That was a good job because he was eight until five. 8 o’clock until five. Another job it would be God knows when he’d get in. but it was a school for the young apprentices. Yeah.
CH: So, he came back from Aden —
JC: Yes.
CH: Where did he go to after that? Did you stay at Padgate?
JC: No, because we got another posting after that didn’t we?
SK: It must have been, was it Odiham?
JC: It could have been RAF Odiham. That’s where the choppers were.
SK: Odiham.
JC: RAF Odiham. Hampshire.
SK: 11 [unclear] Road.
JC: Eh?
SK: 11 [Unclear] Road.
Was it 11 [unclear] Road. Yes. Yeah. Nice married quarter. Yeah. Very nice. We had a married quarter. Very nice because she went to school there and John started school there didn’t he? Yeah. And we hadn’t bought, we hadn’t had a car then. Didn’t have enough money so I said to your dad, ‘How about me going to work? John is now seven. At school.’ So he said, ‘Alright. I’ll go in to HSQ this afternoon and see if there’s anything going.’ He came back that night and he said, ‘Would you like to work in HSQ?’ I said, ‘Yeah. What?’ He said, ‘You've got to see the Warrant Officer on Monday morning.’ ‘Oh okay.’ I went and saw the Warrant Officer and he said, ‘Have you worked in an office before?’ I said, ‘Oh yes. I've always worked in an office.’ He said, ‘Well, what we’re looking for is a movements clerk.’ I said, ‘Yeah. Ok.’ So he said, ‘Can we see you 8 o'clock Monday?’ ‘Yes.’ So I went and saw him and he said, ‘Right, Mrs Culkin you are working in this room. The orderly room. You are our movements clerk.’ No WAAFs in those days. Not in all the camps. No. No. All airmen. So I was in this room. There's my counter. There's my desk and I've got all these four airmen behind me and the flight Sergeant, my boss was up there. I went and I thought oh my God. ‘Right. Come in Mrs Culkin. Now, have you used a Bradshaw’s?’ I said, ‘What’s a Bradshaw’s?’ ‘Its a timetable for trains.’ You know. ‘And then you’ve got timetables for buses. You’re a movements clerk.’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘What will happen, we get a note from HSQ for boys who are being posted. First of all they’ll come to see you. You are movements clerk. You will already have a letter for me, your flight sergeant to say where these men are going and you’ve got to write out a warrant for which train. You look up the train times, what time they get there, if they change and you will give them a bus warrant. They might need a bus to get to the railway station.’ ‘Yes. Alright.’ God, this was my first day. I’ll die. I can’t do it. I said this to the AC1 behind. ‘I can’t.’ He said, ‘Can I call you Jean?’ I said, ‘Yes, of course you can.’ He said, ‘That’s it. You’re now a movements clerk. Yeah. Ok. So —
CH: That was a lot of responsibility.
JC: It was, yeah.
CH: To make sure they were on the right train and in the right place.
JC: Yeah. The mail used to be brought in to the next office and it was all sorted. And then Movements. I’d get my pile here and think oh yeah. Oh my God. And then you’d got to go to the Cardex and find the airman, get his card out, put it down here, get your pad. Where does he work? Oh yeah, he’s in hangar number five. Corporal so and so. Account number 5. “Come to see movements clerk ASAP.” Put that in the mailbox and the maily, the corporal would go around and then you’d see these guys. ‘Where am I going, Jean?’ ‘I’m sorry. I’m sorry.’ Where am I going?’ ‘Oh, yeah. Oh you’re going there. Oh. Oh not overseas. No. Not yet. No. You’re not PWR.’ Preliminary Warning Roster. ‘No. You’re not. No. You’re going the other end of the country.’
SK: Could you arrange for them to have better postings then?
JC: Oh no. Oh no. That came from HSQ. No. That was nothing to do with me because some of the maybe a corporal airman, ‘I don’t want to go there, Mrs Culkin.’ ‘I’m sorry.’ You know. And then don’t forget I had the Cardex. So whenever they moved I had to move from one hangar to another and then when eventually, when they eventually left the station that was blocked there. You put their card in there so they’d gone gone gone. They’d probably gone somewhere else you see.
CH: Gosh.
JC: It was very good. It was 8 o’clock until five I think. An hour for lunch.
SK: That’s probably why your memory’s so good now.
JC: Do you reckon?
SK: Yeah.
JC: Oh, it was fun. I mean movements. I’ve got photographs. I was showing you last week. There’s me in the front and the lads behind me.
CH: This was at RAF Odiham.
JC: This was RAF Odiham.
SK: Odiham.
JC: Yes. Yeah. That was a new quarter wasn’t it. Hampshire. Yes.
CH: Gosh. Do you remember how long you stayed at that station for?
JC: Was it three and a half, four years?
SK: No. Not that long because I had to go to boarding school because you went to Germany.
JC: Oh yeah. We were Preliminary Warning Roster. We got our posting to Germany, didn’t we? RAF.
SK: Was that ’58 ’59?
JC: Yes. About ’58. Yes.
SK: Does that tie in?
JC: Yeah, because she was eleven.
SK: If you were eleven and you were in the RAF and you were posted to Germany.
JC: Yes.
SK: You had three big boarding schools.
JC: Yes.
SK: You couldn't go to day school.
JC: No.
SK: You had to go to boarding school because John Hamley went as well didn’t he?
JC: That’s right.
SK: I went to Prince Rupert School in Wilhelmshaven.
JC: Yeah. Because the school only taught to the age of eleven so Sue had to —
CH: So you went to Germany with your parents.
JC: Oh yes.
CH: And you were in boarding school in Germany.
JC: She could have either gone —
SK: Because John was younger.
JC: Yeah.
SK: He went just to the day school didn’t he?
JC: If Sue had wished they said you could either go back to the UK, stay with grandparents in Sunderland or grandparents in Newcastle. But, ‘No. I don't want to do that. So she went to Wilhelmshaven. Boarding school. Yeah.
SK: Which some years earlier had been a big SS base.
JC: Yeah. It was.
SK: On the south coast [unclear]
JC: Was it the Navy? Was it the —
SK: Yes. It was the deepest what do you call it? Harbour.
JC: Harbour. Yes. Wilhelmshaven.
SK: Where all the warships used to come in.
JC: That’s right.
SK: It’s great in the summer but very cold in the winter.
JC: In the winter. But board.
SK: I slept in the old billets I suppose.
JC: Yes.
SK: For the German Navy.
JC: Oh God. Broke our hearts. Never been away from home before and you were, how far were you? Two hundred miles was it?
SK: Two, two fifty something like that.
JC: We couldn’t see you for six weeks because the head said, ‘No. If you come and see the children you’ll upset them. So can you leave it for six weeks?’ So we went up after six weeks but she was fine. We thought oh God. Oh, John thought it was great.
SK: He was at home.
JC: I’ve got my mum and dad all to myself. My sister’s gone away weee [laughs] yeah.
CH: And how long were you in Germany?
JC: Two and a half years. This was when Major Begby who was in charge. Army Air Corps, it was. That’s when he said to Jack, ‘Look, your promotion. What are you? Sergeant? Flight sergeant? If you come to us Jack you’d be a warrant officer two, warrant officer one. Then you’d go for your commission in about five, six years.’ So, ‘I’ll have to go home and ask Jean. See what she thinks.’ He came home and he said, ‘Hey, hows about joining the Army?’ I said, ‘Padron?’ ‘Yeah. Look, we move in battalions. Not like we do. Singly.’ I said, ‘No.’ The Welsh Regiment was there then and the girls, everybody knew each other all the time but you used to know oh yeah. Oh yeah. ‘We’re all going there. Great.’ Mates forever. In the RAF you don’t do that. You make new friends. I said, ‘No, Jack. Do you want to go in the Army?’ He said, ‘Not really. I’ll tell Major Begby tomorrow.’ Yeah. Ok then. So we didn’t go in the Army. Anyhow, the Army go on schemes and the guys are away for about three or four months at a time because the girls, we all lived in, it was a block of flats then, wasn’t it? And the girls they were lovely. Welsh Regiment weren’t they? They could all sprechen sie Deutsch and the girl next door said, ‘Have you been to Germany before Jean?’ I said, ‘No.’ ‘So you can’t sprechen sie Deutsch.’ I said, ‘No.’ She said, ‘I’ll tell you what when they kids have gone to school I’ll take you shopping.’ ‘Yeah. Ok.’ The first thing I learned was kleines weiβes brot bitte. A small white loaf please.
SK: [unclear]
JC: I know. And then she said, ‘Right. We’ll take you to the butcher’s shop. But you get by and it was two and a half years, wasn’t it? And it was wonderful. Yeah. It was absolutely wonderful because the Army Air Corps were good. And I think there was one Royal Navy petty officer. It was funny that. The Army, Navy and Air Force all at, what was the Navy doing with the RAF and the Army? Never knew. But he was a petty officer so he must have been good.
SK: May have got the wrong movements clerk.
JC: I hope not. Not guilty my lord. But Hildesheim was nice. Yeah.
CH: Then it was RAF Leconfield.
JC: Yes. After that posted to RAF Leconfield.
CH: 1961.
JC: Yes. Yes. Sue went to [pause] What happened there? Had you finished?
SK: Longcroft School.
JC: You went to Longcroft. Did John? John was still at school wasn’t he?
SK: I don’t know where. He’d be on camp I think.
JC: Yes. Yeah. Could have been. Yeah. So, Leconfield.
SK: And then on to —
JC: That was Yorkshire. Leconfield wasn’t it?
SK: Then where? Then to here.
JC: What?
SK: Was it Scampton or –
JC: Scampton. Waddington. We went to both didn’t we?
SK: Then to Germany. You went to Germany.
JC: Oh yeah, we went to —
SK: Oh, did you go to Hong Kong? No. You went to Hong Kong.
JC: Hong Kong for a tour. Yes. That’s how, of course we went to Hong Kong. That was lovely. We had a choice. Jack, I think your dad was at Scampton. Waddington. I’m not sure. He saw the movements clerk and he said, ‘The thing is Jack you’ve got a choice. You’ve got Singapore. Hong Kong.’ ‘What do we do?’ So he said, ‘Tell you what. Go home. Discuss it with the family. Let us, let us know tomorrow.’ So he came home that night and talked about it and I didn’t mind either. I don’t know whether it was you said Hong Kong or John. I don’t know. Anyhow, posted to Hong Kong two and a half years. And Sue said, ‘Ok. I’ll come with you but I’m not sure whether I’ll like it.’ And we said, ‘It’’ll be alright, Sue,’ you know. ‘Meet new people.’ Because you were twenty then weren’t you? Twenty. Yes.
SK: Twenty one.
JC: Twenty one. She had her twenty first in Hong Kong, but John, ‘Oh yeah. I’m all for it.’ That was it. So, two and a half years. But after six months.
SK: Yeah. I came back.
JC: Sue couldn’t stand the heat and the crowds and, ‘Dad, I want to go home. I’ve had enough. Can I go back to Lincoln?’ Went to stay with two friends didn’t you. ‘Oh, you can’t go on your own, Sue. You’re only twenty one. Please stay.’ ‘No. No. I’ll buy a wig mam before I go.’ Do you remember you bought a wig?
SK: I did.
JC: You did. Why? I don’t know. You had beautiful hair. Anyhow —
SK: The humidity.
JC: That’s it and the crowds of people. You couldn’t, not used to it.
SK: It was the humidity I think.
JC: But there again you had a job there didn’t you?
SK: A good job.
JC: She had a good, the Hong Kong Electric Light Company. Typist.
SK: I was PA to the boss.
JC: Yeah. She had, do you know what. She was earning more than her father who was a warrant. She was.
SK: [unclear] what I was earning here. I had a super job. I don’t know [unclear] but I did.
JC: ’No. I can’t stay dad. Really. I don’t like it. It’s too, I can’t stand the heat.’
SK: Yes.
JC: That was the spring.
SK: And that’s then end of the story. We ended up here.
JC: Yes. Yeah. She came back and that was it. Met Jim. Jack was due to come out of the RAF.
CH: Ok. Right. So the final base was Waddington.
JC: RAF Waddington. Yes. That was a nice posting. Of course, the children had grown up. I was more or less just doing housework, you now. I’d more or less finished work on camps. On any camp. I thought oh my God. And then we had to think about coming out of the RAF. We knew that these bungalows were being built so we came down. Saw the boss man, put down a deposit and then we got this bungalow. No. That's about it, I think.
CH: That was in the 1980s.
JC: 1980s. Yeah. 1980s. Yeah. I think that’s about it because I think Sue had by then met Jim.
[background voice]
CH: Interview paused for a moment.
[recording paused]
CH: Ok. So, interview restarted. You were just going to put the deposit down on this bungalow.
JC: Yes. Jack was due to come out of the RAF at fifty five. And that was about it, you know. He said, ‘Right. I’ve got to come out some time.’ Because he loved, he loved his job. He loved looking after the lads. The airmen thought the world of him. When we were at RAF Gutersloh the group captain said, ‘Right Jack, when you get back to the UK that will be your last tour so we want to do something special here.’ He said, ‘Oh, please no.’ He said, ‘It’s just a little party.’ Because he got on with all the lads whatever rank, you know. Anyhow, I was working at RAF Gutersloh as well. They wanted someone in the, I don’t know, we did ordering. My friend Carol and I did ordering. Airmen used to come in, Air Publications, ‘Right. Jean, I want this. Can you get me this booklet?’ Every Monday morning a pilot would come in, ‘Can you get me this booklet? This booklet.’ Because all the orders used to go to RAF Bruggen. They arrived there at the weekend and on the following morning they’d be back. They’d be flown back to Gutersloh so all the officers and airmen could come in and get their books and whatnot. I did that for about two years and I loved every minute of it, you know. It was absolutely wonderful. And there was, I must tell you this, Carol, my friend her husband was a corporal. We used to take sandwiches to work and she said, ‘Jean, I'll take you to the Corporals Club.’ I said, ‘I can't. Jack’s a warrant.’ She said, ‘No. We can have a cup of tea. Bring your sarnies and we’ll sit and have a natter and I can say hello to my husband. He’s over there. He's a corporal.’ ‘Yeah, ok.’ So we were having our sandwiches and I’m sitting back listening to all this going on. A lot of lads, you know having sandwiches and natter natter and who walks in the door but Jack in uniform. If he had his hat on like that I knew there was trouble. So he goes straight, he could see me. He couldn’t miss me and I thought oh my God. I thought he’d come for me. No. He’d come to two lads a the counter and he said, ‘What do you think you’re doing?’ You know you're working on blooming helicopters, aeroplanes and you're drinking beer. My office. 2 o'clock.’ I thought oh God. I didn't dare look at Jack. He was so stern. Anyhow, I got back to work and that night he picked me up at five, I finished at five and I said, ‘What was that?’ He said, ‘I couldn't look at you love because I would have laughed but when I put my hat on straight like that they know they're in trouble.’ I thought, ‘What happened?’ He said, ‘I got back to the office, got back to my desk, took my hat off and put it on the side and I said, ‘Right. You two stand there you stupid nincompoops.’ So I put my hat on like that, I said, ‘What the hell do you think you're doing? You're working on choppers. Drinking beer. 12 o'clock. You’re working on engines for Christ’s sake.’ Yeah. And he really really told them off. ‘Sorry sir. We shan’t do it again.’ He said, ‘You do that again I’m going to really report you to the CO. The CO knows nothing about this but he will do.’ And he frightened the living daylights out of them. That told them. He said, ‘But you’ve got to teach them. You can't drink beer when you're working on aeroplanes.’ You know. And that was it. Yeah. I said to Carol, ‘I’m never coming to your club again.’ [laughs] But I'm still in touch with Carol. Yeah. Her husband, when they got back to, they came back to England the year before us. Oh, she was lovely. She comes from Liverpool. And she'd been back a year and then she found out she was pregnant. She had twin girls. And the twin girls I think were two year old and he met somebody else. He, he was an electrician. He came out the RAF, got this job in this factory and the boss of the factory was Swiss, a Swiss lady and it was love at first sight so got a divorce from Carol. So I still write and she says, ‘Jean, never mention his name to me again.’ Because the girl twin girls are now twenty, twenty five years old and got children of their own. We write every month I suppose and she says, she often says in her letter, “You know, my dear friend I can't believe we've been writing from 1970 when we got back to the UK. It’s wonderful.” You know. Yeah. Once a month we write. I haven't seen her. Our Sue says, ‘Why don’t you get a telephone number?’ I say, ‘Sue, if I start talking to Carol I’ll never, I’ll never get off. I mean we write pages and pages Can you imagine the telephone bill?’ No. We keep it as it is. Yeah. Carol, bless her. Carol.
CH: You mentioned Jack —
JC: Yes.
CH: On his final posting they were going to do a little do for him.
JC: Yes. Yeah. Oh, at RAF Gutersloh. Yes. Yeah. I’ve got pictures of that as well. I think they’re in there. I’m not sure. And they said he said we came home on the Thursday night. He was leaving them on the Friday because we had to get back to get back to the UK. He said, ‘There’s something happening at work.’ I said, ‘There’s bound to be.’ He said, ‘Have you heard anything in Air Publications?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well, some of the officers come in? Haven’t they mentioned?’ I said, ‘No. Nobody has said anything. Why would they tell me?’ He said, ‘I’ve got a funny feeling.’ I said, ‘Yes. Ok. God, stop worrying about it. We’ve got packing to do when we get back home and get the boxes ready for going back to the UK.’ Right. So, he said, ‘Ok.’ Came back and that was the Thursday and on Friday he dropped me off at my office, Air Publications and I knew there was something going on because I had, one of the officers had been in. He said, ‘Don’t you dare say anything.’ I said, ‘Promise. I won’t say a thing.’ And he, Jack knew there was something was going on months beforehand because the airmen were disappearing. They got through their work but he thought this is very odd. What the hell are they doing? But they kept up to date with their work, you know and eventually on the day of leaving, because he dropped me off at work at 8 o’clock that morning and I thought I wonder what’s going on. I know. I’m going to ask my flight sergeant if I can walk up to his hangar. And do you know what these lads had built? A wooden helicopter. There’s photographs in there and he’s standing on the steps with a group captain here drinking because the groupie said, ‘You know forty years is a long time, Jack. All the best and I hope you enjoy Civvy Street.’ Yeah. So they said, ‘Right chief. Get in.’ And they pulled him in this chopper right around the airfield. Stopped at every, everything. ‘Bye Jack. Hope you’ve enjoyed your forty years.’ Yeah. Yeah. And it was absolutely wonderful and when he picked me up that night it was lateish. It was half past five, 6 o’clock. He said, ‘Did you know anything about it?’ I said, ‘No. I knew nothing about it.’ I was sworn to secrecy. He said, ‘Did you know they were going to build that little chopper?’ I said, ‘No.’ All out of wood. You see one of the corporals would say, ‘Right. I’m going to disappear for a half an hour. You cover for me.’ And they’d go in to another part of the hangar. This, yeah. It had wood, it was all made of wood. The wings there, two wheels there and two wheels at the back and a little seat inside. And there’s a picture there of Jack on these steps and the groupie standing with a glass of champagne on him [unclear] Yeah, but forty years is a long time and he said, ‘Right. Where are you going Jack?’ And he said, ‘I think I’m in Lincoln somewhere. I don’t know. Waddington. Scampton. I think it might be Scampton.’ He said, ‘Well, good luck. All the best.’ Yeah. I think we went to Scampton first. Yes. Went to Scampton and then Waddo. Yeah. To finish off, you know. But it was good. Open Air Days over here when Jack was at Scampton or Waddo because if you were in uniform, you know Sue and Jim and the boys were only this and no entrance fees. ‘Right. Come on.’ You know. Well, now I think its about, is it about twenty, thirty pound to get in Open Day? It’s quite a lot. But it’s all for a good cause, you know. I mean, I watch it on telly. Absolutely wonderful. All these things that are going on. When Jack and I were in it there’s only a little few sort of little offices where they had cups of tea and sandwiches and biscuits but now it’s ginormous. Which is fantastic, you know. Yeah. So that was the end of that.
CH: Some wonderful happy memories.
JC: I know. Absolutely. And I’ve still got them.
CH: Yes.
JC: Which is good, you know. As I say to our Sue your body might give up but this is the most important part isn’t it, you know. I can say, ‘Help. My legs won’t move today, Sue.’ She’d say, ‘Yeah, alright mum.’ But you see when we left Hong Kong John was what? Seventeen. And our Sue, she was in England, couldn’t stand the heat. And of course, it came for us coming back and he’d finished schooling out there. He was just on seventeen and he said, ‘You know what, Dad, I don’t want to go back to the UK.’ ‘What? What are you going to do?’ He said, ‘I like Hong Kong. I like the life. I've got come nice school mates out here. We've all left school now, passed our exams and done this, that and the other. Do you think I could stay out for a couple of years?’ ‘Oh John. I don't like leaving you.’ He said, ‘I'll tell you what I'm going to look for a job. We have got a month before you get back so I’ll try and get this job. If I don’t get it I’ll come back to the UK with you.’ Damn me. He got this job at Rediffusion. Hong Kong Rediffusion. He came in for his lunch that day. It was only a half an hour. He could walk. ‘Mum and dad if — ’ we had a television about this big, in those days black and white, he said, ‘Watch that tonight. You might see something.’ I said, ‘The news? We know the news. Hong Kong news.’ He said, ‘No. Watch it.’ ‘Ok.’ So he said, ‘I’ll see you about 10 o'clock tonight.’ ‘OK.’ So, the 6 o’clock news came on and it was from RAF. What? ‘And we are now training some of our pilots —' What they do is take you out in an aeroplane, drop you in the water. You’ve got the thing, your life jacket on and whatnot and somebody comes and rescues you. And John says, ‘They’re trying me.’ They were trying him that day. ‘John, will you jump out?’ ‘Ok.’ Our John jumped out and that’s where he was on telly. Yeah. So he came up to the mic and he said, ‘That was the first jump I’ve ever done from RAF Kai Tak. Thank you.’ That was it. So came in that night. ‘I thought the likes of that by God it was scary but luckily I had the life jacket on and everything. Can I stay? Please? I finished my schooling. I think might have a job, you know.’ ‘Where?’ ‘RTHK.’ ‘What doing?’ ‘Television. Look we did all that today and I did most of the camera work.’ Oh God. And that was it. That was John in Hong Kong and that. He didn’t want to come back. Sue couldn’t get back quick enough. She couldn’t stand the heat. It was hot, you know if you’re not used to it. And he’d been out there about three or four years and he sent us tickets for a holiday. First class. BA. Yeah. It was a lovely. Lovely. But by then he’d met Flora and what not. He’d met her. She was in Miss Hong Kong blah blah blah and I think she came in second. And of course that’s Flora. That’s her birthday thing. And he met Flora because with RTHK they were taking photographs and whatnot and he asked her for a date and that was it. They've been married, she's fifty six this year so they've been married, they've had their Pearl wedding anniversary. Yeah. Because Justin is now, their elder son is twenty nine and Emma is eighteen. No. Sorry. She’s twenty one. Yes. And she’s just started university in Beijing where her brother is. Because Justin he got a job in Beijing. He’s marketing and he’s just had a good promotion. He’s just come back from Shanghai. Because now with those phones he can talk to his mum day or night can’t he? I haven’t got one of those phones. Because when she was here yesterday she said, ‘Oh, Justin wants to say hello.’ I said, ‘Oh, hi Just.’ He said, ‘Are you alright nanna? Your hair looks different nana.’ I said, ‘I know. It’s age, you know Justin [laughs] All the curls have gone.’ He said, ‘No. You look good. I’ll see you at Christmas.’ I said, ‘Are you?’ He said, ‘Yeah. We’re coming for Christmas.’ So he's coming and Emma’s coming because Emma’s just started Uni there learning Mandarin. No more Cantonese. It’s all Mandarin because the Chinese took over didn’t they? When we left how many years is that? Quite a few. So you’ve got to learn and our John’s been there all this time and he can not speak Cantonese or Mandarin. ‘I’m not learning that. If they can’t speak English they can’t speak English.’ But you know. So that’s about it.
CH: With Jack and his career in the RAF.
JC: Yes.
CH: You’ve travelled and stayed all around the world.
JC: I know. And I met people, wives who said, ‘Travelling? What? You're moving again?’ ‘Yeah. What about you?’ ‘No. I'm not moving my two boys.’ This was a corporal’s wife. ‘No. My boy’s education comes first. No. My husband can go anywhere he wants.’ And I used to say, ‘No way.’ Jack would say, ‘No way. I’m not putting you down. I want you with me. Why get married? What's the point? Why get married if you're going to leave your wife in a house because of education?’ I mean our Sue and John have done well in their education no matter where we've been they've gone to schools or colleges you know. It's been great for them. I mean we've got Flora now and two lovely grandchildren. Where is Emma? There's Emma. And there’s Justin.
CH: A wonderful family.
JC: I know. Just how old is Justin now? Gosh. Thirtysomething. Our Emma's twenty one. There’s nine years between them. They wanted, isn’t it amazing when you want children, you can't have them then all of a sudden, ‘I'm pregnant.’ Because there's nine years between them. No, but it's great. It’s lovely.
CH: So how long have you lived in this bungalow?
JC: 1974, I think. Jack was leaving the RAF so we had to have somewhere to live and start getting furniture, you know. This is not the same furniture we had when we moved in. Yes. Yeah. And we thought, ‘My God. The garden.’ There was a hell of a garden at the back and at the front. Jack and I used to do it and then of course I lost him. So, our Jim said, ‘Don’t worry mum.’ He loves gardening and he only lived at the top of the hill. Jim does all the gardening. Bless him.
CH: But when did Jack pass away?
JC: 1999.
CH: ’99.
JC: 1999. Yeah. He didn't see the New Year. You know. The centenary. No. We were at my sisters at Albrighton just on the outskirts Birmingham. She said, ‘Jack and Jean why don't you come up for four or five days?’ So Jim said, ‘It’s alright dad. You're not driving. I’ll take you.’ So we went for the weekend. That was Friday and Saturday. It was great. We went out with my sister and brother in law in the morning because Sue and Jim had come back here. And it was on the Sunday afternoon we'd been walking around, you know looking at various things in their village. Got back and Mary had done dinner for us. Spaghetti Bolognese. Really enjoyed it. It was great. I think it was about 10ish and Jack said, ‘Oh, do you mind if I go to bed? I feel ever so tired’ I said, ‘I shan’t be long.’ He said, ‘No. Don’t be long’ So right. So Mary and Bob went to bed and then I went to the bathroom, washed my hands and what not and he said, ‘Do you know I feel a bit odd.’ I said, ‘Do you? Are you too hot?’ he said, ‘No. Not really.’ So, I said, ‘Alright then. You go to that side of the bed and I’ll —’ It was a double bed. It was a six footer. And I think it was about 1 o'clock in the morning I heard him make this funny noise and I thought what the hell was that? I said, ‘Are you alright?’ And his head went like that. I thought oh my God. I got up and put the light on. Mary was in the downstairs bedroom with Bob and I shouted like hell. ‘What?’ I said, ‘Mary, can you dial 999?’ ‘Why?’ ‘Jack’s not very well. Please please hurry up. Hurry up’ So the ambulance, they couldn't find Albrighton. They couldn't find the village and I mean when we eventually got to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham they said you’ve got about four minutes, you know, when you have one of these attacks. It was a massive. He never had heart trouble in his life. Never.
CH: How old was he?
JC: How old was he when he died, bless him? Well, he was two years older than me so, I think he was seventy, seventy five. About seventy five. Yeah. I was about seventy three. Yeah. Seventy five. Just enjoying retirement, you know from the RAF and whatnot. But it was quick. By God it was quick. So we had to, eventually had to get in the ambulance. The ambulance chap was working on him but I thought ahum. There’s something wrong here. And the driver shouting to the back, ‘Can you hold tight please?’ So quick. I mean it was 2 o'clock in the morning. Luckily no traffic around. We got to the hospital and they worked on him but the doctor, lady doctor came in and said, ‘I’m sorry, Jean.’ I said, ‘Oh my.’ In shock. Then of course we had to get in touch with Sue and Jim at three or 4 o’clock in the morning. They got up, got dressed, came straight down you see. Luckily Jim being in the police force he said, ‘Now, what's going to happen mam because we're in a different county there’s going to be a young policeman,’ he said, ‘I've just spoken to him and he's going to take notes.’ He said, ‘He’s just going to ask you a few questions and just answer yes or no.’ Which I did. And then the doctor came in. A female doctor. She was lovely. She said, ‘You’re from Lincoln, aren't you?’ I said, ‘Yes. We live in Lincoln.’ She said, ‘I’ve just done four years in Lincoln Hospital.’ I said, ‘Oh that’s amazing.’ She said, ‘But I’m ever so sorry. There was just nothing we could do. It was a massive coronary.’ Whatever. And that was it. It was terrible coming back home. Jim driving and me in the back. Sue there. And oh God. Sue couldn’t get over it because dad’s favourite. But there you go. That’s life and I thought oh. And that was seventeen years ago almost. What do you do? You can't give in, can you?
CH: What a wonderful life you had.
JC: I know. Absolutely.
CH: Absolutely.
JC: Wonderful. I’d do it all again.
CH: And fantastic memories. I’d just like to, we’ll end it there.
JC: Yes.
CH: But thank you so much.
JC: Yes.
CH: So much for telling your story.
JC: No. You’re most welcome.
CH: It’s been wonderful.
JC: Thank you ever so much.
CH: Thank you very much Jean.
JC: Very kind of you. No. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jean Culkin
Creator
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Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACulkinJ170913, PCulkinJ1702
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Description
An account of the resource
Jean Culkin grew up in Sunderland and worked as a tea girl and then a typist in a reserved occupation. She discusses her life and her wedding to her husband, John George Mackel Culkin. He was an apprentice at RAF Halton before becoming a fitter (engines). He served with 35 Squadron at RAF Leeming before being posted overseas to North Africa and Italy. After the war Jean accompanied her husband on postings to Germany and Hong Kong.
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eng
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Civilian
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China
Germany
Great Britain
China--Hong Kong
England--Somerset
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
England--Yorkshire
England--Newcastle upon Tyne
England--Weston-super-Mare
Germany--Gütersloh
England--Durham (County)
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01:40:34 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
35 Squadron
4 Group
76 Squadron
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
home front
love and romance
military discipline
RAF Halton
RAF Leeming
RAF Locking
RAF Middleton St George
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/755/10753/ACourtPR171211.2.mp3
f5adb26711d51c0b4874459a61b47524
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Court, Percival Robert
P R Court
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Robert Court (b. 1924, 1728924 Royal Air Force). He served as a rigger and airframe fitter.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Court, PR
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Monday the 11th of December 2017 and I am in Reading with Bob Court to talk about his life and times and starting with what are your earliest recollections of life, Bob?
PC: I don’t know. Being [pause] at a place called Organford where there were floods. My mother was sat with her feet in the water and nursing me. Then the old chap was going off to work and he left his Hunter watch on the bed head so I could hear it ticking. That’s my earliest memory.
CB: What did your father do?
PC: He was a post office engineer. Linesman.
CB: Whereabouts?
PC: Dorset.
CB: And what did that involve?
PC: Well, in those days the, during the winter months the snow would bring the lines down and they had to go and put them back up. So it meant travelling about all over the place.
CB: Right. And where did you go to school?
PC: Poole. National school. National Boy School, Poole.
CB: Any exciting times there?
PC: Oh yeah. I thought they were all exciting [laughs] Yeah. It was ok. I managed to keep to the top of the heap all the time so life was pretty, pretty easy.
CB: Did you develop a main interest?
PC: Woodwork, I suppose. I don’t know. My mother wouldn’t let me go to the Grammar School. They wanted me to go and take the exam. But my mother wouldn’t let me go.
CB: Why was that?
PC: Probably she couldn’t afford it. But in, in retrospect I say she probably saved my life.
CB: Because?
PC: If you’d have gone to the Grammar School you’d have been aircrew.
CB: Right.
PC: Not many of them survived.
CB: Right. Right. And what age did you leave school?
PC: Fourteen.
CB: Then what?
PC: Then what? Well, I worked for this furniture company. And then when I was old enough volunteered for the Air Force.
CB: Yeah. But first of all what did you do?
PC: What do you mean what did I do?
CB: Well, immediately after you left school what did you do? Before you went to the furniture company.
PC: I worked for a friend of a member of the family who had a radio business. And I suppose, I don’t know when I turned up, when they packed up. And I went to the Labour Exchange because I had a suit on I suppose they thought here’s a chap for the shop, for this furniture store.
CB: So what did you do in the furniture business?
PC: Well, repairing, French polishing. All sorts of things really. Selling it. Delivering it.
CB: You said you were interested in carpentry at school. So did that put you in good stead for what you were doing for the furniture company?
PC: I suppose it did in a way. Yes. I suppose it did.
CB: So were you an apprentice there or —
PC: Yeah.
CB: Right. And how long were apprenticeships in those days?
PC: This one was three years I think it was. Yeah. Three years, I think. Three years, I think. Three or four years.
CB: So, you were born in 1924.
PC: Yeah.
CB: And that meant that when the war started what age were you?
PC: Fifteen.
CB: And what reaction did you feel with the start of the war?
PC: Pretty good [laughs] I didn’t think we were going to lose. Never entered my head that we might lose. I didn’t realise how close it was but at the time no you wouldn’t. Never thought of it.
CB: So, this is when you’re working for the furniture company.
PC: Yeah.
CB: What did you do that was related to the war at that stage because you were too young to sign up.
PC: I did a bit of firewatching. We had to do that every night. Well, not one night a week at least. Then they started introducing payment so I did two nights. Sometimes three. It wasn’t very onerous.
CB: What did you have to do?
PC: Well, just keep a watch out for incendiary bombs because they were using a lot of those at the time. And put out any fires they might cause. Fortunately, in my area they didn’t cause any. So I was alright. Not bad at all.
CB: So what did they, what title did you have for that task? Fire watching. Was that ARP or what was it?
PC: No. It wasn’t ARP. Just fire watchers or something.
CB: Right.
PC: I don’t know. Who was it introduced it? [pause] I think it was Morrison, wasn’t it? Morrison.
CB: Herbert Morrison [pause] But what did you actually have to do in fire watching?
PC: Well, keep, keep an, keep your eyes open for any incendiaries that might land near you.
CB: I was thinking did you have a base to work from or did you walk the streets or what did you do?
PC: No. We had a room over a shop that we used to sleep in. And any air raids we’d go out and wander around the streets.
CB: Right. And you had a supervisor or who controlled what you were doing?
PC: Yeah. We had a chap who owned one of the shops. Well, he owned a chemist shop and he was the chap in charge. Yeah.
CB: So what did you find in there?
PC: Hmmn?
CB: You’re looking in your book. What have you got in there?
PC: Oh, I’m just trying to remember what was going on. The Dunkirk business.
CB: Well, we can come back. Let’s talk about Dunkirk then. So you remember Dunkirk in 1940.
PC: Yeah.
CB: What do you remember particularly about that?
PC: Well, when was it?
CB: Because you’re in Weymouth.
PC: Germany attacked Poland. No. I was in Poole then.
CB: Oh, in Poole were you?
PC: The Phoney War. Holland. The occupation of Denmark and Norway. The evacuation of Dunkirk. I remember watching soldiers coming in to Poole Quay on any craft that could make the journey.
CB: Right. When they landed then what happened to them?
PC: Tea, cigarettes, beer and food being given to the bemused troops. Pitiful to see them. Did not appreciate —
CB: What sort of state were they in?
PC: Not very happy. Glad to be out of where they were though.
CB: Were they upright, bedraggled or what were they?
PC: Well, they were a bit bedraggled but apart from that they were ok. Glad to be out of there. That was all.
CB: Yes.
PC: Yeah.
CB: So after that you continued with your fire watching.
PC: Yes.
CB: Did you join the ATC or —
PC: Yeah. Yeah. I joined the Air Training Corps.
CB: Right. And when was that? That was when you were what age? Was it at the time of fire watching?
PC: Yeah. Obviously [pause] when were the ATC formed? When was that?
[pause]
PC: Yeah. Herbert Morrison was the one who said all persons between sixteen and sixty register for fire watching duties.
CB: Right.
PC: So, I, they used to pay four and sixpence. Twenty two and a half pence per night. I didn’t earn much so I volunteered to do two and sometimes three nights a week.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Which helped my salary immensely.
CB: Can you remember what you earned when you were working for the furniture company?
PC: Yeah. Twelve [pause] twelve and sixpence.
CB: Did you?
PC: Or sixty two and a half pence.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Per week. The Air Training Corps was in 1941. And I joined in March 1941.
CB: The ATC.
PC: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So, now you’re coming up to be old enough to join the forces. What made you join the RAF rather than the Army or the Navy?
PC: As I said, I couldn’t swim. And I didn’t like the brown jobs. They got too close. So, I thought the Air Force might be a bit safer.
CB: Right.
PC: Which it proved to be.
CB: So, what, what was the process then of joining up?
PC: I went to [pause] where did I go? I went up to Southampton I think. Volunteered.
CB: Did you go to Cardington as a start?
PC: Yeah.
CB: What happened at Cardington?
PC: I went to [pause] joined [pause — pages turning] Yeah. Cardington. Somewhere. I volunteered. It was possible to volunteer at seventeen and a half.
CB: Yeah.
PC: I did that in February ‘42. Volunteered for service as a flight mechanic.
CB: Right.
PC: Report to the centre of Southampton for a medical and attestation. Bear true allegiance to His Majesty King George the Sixth, his heirs and successors blah blah blah. Got the King’s Shilling in the form of a postal order.
CB: Oh, you did. Right.
PC: I was hoping to be given a shilling but they didn’t. They give me a bloody postal order. I should have saved it but I didn’t. So, I went to, and I was with the ATC at their Fleet Air Arm place at Sandbanks and I had to report to Cardington.
CB: Right.
PC: Yeah. Never been outside the county ‘til then.
CB: So, what did you do at Cardington?
PC: Got kitted out. Did some tests. We had to fill out, yeah fill out all these books. Tests. I was about to decide what we would do. Test booklets. Fill in name and number. Answer all the questions you could. Such things as mathematics, simple science, English diagrams to determine which way cogs might revolve around levers and pulleys operated. Seemed to go on for hours and days by the end of it. Afterwards when discussing with others how they thought they had fared I began to realise that not all of us were as well equipped as others. In fact, the lad I travelled with from Poole had found the exercise very daunting. Then we were interviewed by, about technical matters school, blah blah blah. Issued with uniforms and equipment. Everything. Dog tags and whatever. When all this was going on the, an airman came and called out your name. Gather up your kit and follow him. My friend from Poole was amongst us. ‘Where are you going?’ I asked. ‘I’ve been selected for the RAF regiment.’ Soon our numbers were quite depleted. We slept soundly that night.
CB: So, are you saying not everybody was accepted in to the RAF?
PC: They were accepted into the RAF but not in what they wanted to do.
CB: Right.
PC: Like this chap that came with me was put in the RAF regiment.
CB: Yes. So, what other jobs would they have put them into?
PC: Well, there was cooks.
CB: Yeah.
PC: All sorts of things I think. Different. Different. I’m trying to think really.
CB: But you’d been identified as somebody to work, you said earlier as a rigger.
PC: Yeah.
CB: Is that because you asked for that or they suggested that’s what you should do?
PC: Well, no. What happens, you were sort of all lined up and said, I would say about sixty or so of us and those who wished to be air frame mechanics to cross to the other side of the room. Not a soul moved. Didn’t know what he was bloody talking about.
CB: No.
PC: ‘Right,’ he said, said to the group, he said, ‘All those on the left engines. Those on the right airframe.’ That’s how I became a flight mechanic air frame.
CB: Right.
PC: That’s it.
CB: Was this chap a corporal or —
PC: It was better actually than the engines. I thought so anyway. And we went from Cardington to Skegness for square bashing.
CB: What else did you do at Skegness?
PC: Just the initial training. Marching up and down.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Cracking the paving stones.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Then we were —
CB: Was there any classroom work? It wasn’t square bashing all the time was it?
PC: Square. Well, most of the times. Yeah.
CB: And from there?
PC: Didn’t have any rifles so we had wooden replica rifles. Bayonet practice with pikes. Scaffold tubing with the bayonets welded on. Bayonet practice we charged at straw filled sacks on wooden frames and around again. We were encouraged to scream and shout the meanest of obscenities as we charged forward. Urged on by the instructors. In, out, Oh God, out the ground, left, right, right, oh dear. Oh dear. Unarmed combat was taught. Be invited to charge the instructor with a rifle and bayonet, and we’d be tipped ass over head in no uncertain manner. How we would fare in real combat was never really put to the test. The assault courses, climb wire, barbed wire, rope netting. Crossing streams and, oh dear. Did guard duty. We’d sit on the seafront with a machine gun on the beach. Wend our way through the mines laid on the beach, ropes and tape. The odd mine was clearly visible in the sand so one was apprehensive when going backwards and forwards. The Butlins Holiday Camp was used by the Navy as a training establishment. Given the name HMS Arthur. The camp was full of Naval though we never seen any in the town. They must have kept them away. Perhaps the authorities in their infinite wisdom kept us apart. Many lectures on various aspects of service life. We had medical officer of the dangers of venereal diseases. This was my first introduction to sex education. For me it was a rude awakening. The MO marched on the stage in the lecture room and held up an unrolled French letter which he announced was a condom. In my ignorance I only knew it as the more familiar name. They were sold sureptisously in barber’s shops where male customers would be discreetly asked if they needed such things for the weekend. He ran to great length about syphilis, gonorrhoea, associated with women of a dubious character. If we did succumb to these wiles we’d be marching with a standing penis and no conscience. Returned to a room behind the guard room where prophylactic treatment was available. This lecture was reinforced by an American film of soldiers frequenting a brothel and the resulting liaison in full colour. Various venereal diseases in all its ghastly forms. Pretty shocking to my young senses. What kept most men on the straight and narrow was the exception that women were to be respected. The ultimate way was that the man would marry a virgin and young women accordingly kept themselves chaste. At home sex was never discussed. It was taboo. But nevertheless there were plenty of innuendoes bandied about between Babe, Benny and some of the lodgers. I was a little naive to appreciate what was going on. Films and books were played down as part of any stories so as not to offend the sensors. Songs adhered to a strict code of practice. Some comedians like Max Miller sailed pretty close to the wind. A popular song of the day was, “Doing What Comes Naturally.” And that was how people were introduced to sex. To suppress our sexual drive a cup of tea or cocoa we drank was laced with copious amounts of Bromide. Also we were kept so busy with square bashing and PT at the end of the day we were too exhausted for such dalliances. That coupled with our meagre pay did not leave us much for entertaining the opposite sex. As the course progressed so did our fitness. Jack London was training for his fight would delight in picking out likely lads to spar with him in the boxing ring. Fortunately, for me being I was slight build I was not selected for this ordeal. We could not avoid the forced marches that were his pet items. Be paraded in marching order with small pack. Gas mask we had to march at a fast pace for about ten miles or so. Periodically we’d be halted for a short rest but Jack would prance about shadow boxing while we looked on in awe. And off we’d go again at almost a gallop. After six weeks or so of this intensive square bashing we were deemed to be sufficiently proficient in parade ground techniques and arms drill, armed and unarmed bayonet, to be referred to the next place of our training. Come of some use in the overall strategy of the Air Force. And then off we went. Went to —
CB: Where did you go next?
PC: Went to a place called Brindley Heath near Birmingham. Just outside Birmingham. And we marched up to the camp known as Kit Bag Hill surrounded by an eight to ten foot high wire chain link. This was number school, number 6 School of Technical Training. It would be our home for the next five or six months. So that’s where I went.
CB: So, at the Technical School this was specifically was it for the trade you were put into?
PC: Yeah. Yeah. Number 6 School of Technical Training.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Very desolate. Looked rather gloomy after Skegness. I was accommodated in one of many of the wooden huts. In the centre was a coal burning stove. Iron beds that telescoped to give a spacious look to the room. On each bed was three square shaped mattresses called biscuits. Pillow. Three blankets all arranged in a precise manner which we would get accustomed to making before going on parade in the mornings. A corporal was in charge of the hut and the weekly inspections of the hut ensured was spotless before he allowed us to go to breakfast. Woe betide anyone who entered the hut after he’d pronounced it satisfactory. Not only were the trainees RAF personnel but there were the Fleet Air Arm, Polish and WAAFs which added a degree of rivalry to us all. Each morning we’d parade outside the hut at 7.30 am. Headed by the station band we would march to the workshop to the strains of, “Sussex by the Sea.” We would mutter as we marched along in the darkness, “Good old Sussex by the sea. You can tell them all we know sod all of Sussex by the sea.” How’s that? [laughs]
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, the RAF called this site you’re talking about RAF Hednesford.
PC: Yeah.
CB: What did you actually do there?
PC: That was the —
CB: Brindley Heath.
PC: Yeah. First two weeks dealt with basic engineering practice. I did on occasion metal, metals used in aircraft production. Types of drills, screws, tools, heat treatment, corrosion. Main practical work involved filing a piece of mild steel about three or four inches square, a quarter of an inch thick. Dead flat and square. Both faces and all surfaces. At the end marks were attained in the practical theory and oral examination we continued with the course. Otherwise we were re-mustered into probably the RAF regiment. Perish the thought. Anyone with ninety percent could go on to the fitter’s course. Those with marks forty or less would be re-mustered. Only one of our entry was. Which was a hundred and fifty eight passed with high enough marks and one failed. And he had the, as he had had office experience in Civvy Street he was posted to the admin section as a Clerk GD. We were rather derisory towards him but he had the last laugh because by the time we had completed the course he had been promoted to corporal. So he did well. None of us were concerned about going on the fitter’s course which meant another ten weeks of training and many were anxious to join a squadron and actually service aircraft. Once the basic training was over we got down to the serious business of the flight mechanic’s course. Sixteen weeks of instruction, preliminary rigging, knots, lacing of wire and rope. Fabrication, application, doping and painting, carpentry, hydraulics, pneumatic, wheels and tyre maintenance, marshalling of aircraft. Procedures for the daily inspection. At first I’d been disappointed in not being successful in being selected as an engine mechanic but once on the course I found it so varied and covered such a variety of activities I was glad. Later in life it stood me in good stead. Once we were, similar routine with our spare time spent in the NAAFI. Occasional visits to the camp cinema. One film I recall was the story of that guy who sold his soul to the devil. Was it a warning? Also got initiated in playing cards. Not Whist, Rummy and Cribbage that I was reasonable in but Brag, Pontoon and Solo. We did not have a lot of money to indulge in these games and after being relieved of my meagre pay by the card sharks among us I became more cautious about getting too involved. The only game officially sanctioned by the powers that be was Tombola or Housey Housey. Less stressful and you were unlikely to lose too much of your money. Weekends we’d venture in to town with Walsall being one of the favourite places. Many thought I came from Canada. Due to my West Country accent no doubt. So I would say I came from London, Ontario. I was intrigued by the accents of these Black Country people as they were known here. Hednesford itself was a mining village. We’d often visit the snooker hall and local pub. The younger miners a little hostile to us as many would have liked to have joined the Services from what was a Reserved Occupation from which there was no escape. Hence their frustrations. Shall I go on?
CB: Yeah.
PC: My best friend, Bob Matthews, a Londoner and I was a bit in awe of him because he was very streetwise while I was just a country boy who knew nothing of the big wide world. As I lived in Poole it was much too far for me to go home on a forty eight hour pass and I stayed with him with his parents in London. Fabulous. They lived in Woolwich and his father was security officer at the Royal Arsenal. They had a small cottage inside the Arsenal as part of the job. You would say that this was the safest place in London. Bob had a regular girlfriend. Sylvia, I believe. And he introduced me to her sister Vera. This made a convenient foursome for us. Also, Vera was my first really serious girl. We used to write copious letters to each other even when I was posted overseas. However, when I was abroad for a long separation of course there was a cool off a bit and she met up with another lad. When I came home in 1947 we did try to get together but I was very unsettled and did not know what I wanted to do so we drifted apart. Compared with Poole, Woolwich and London in general was a wonderland to me [pause] Pubs such as Dirty Dick’s were so different from those in Poole. We would meet Bob’s mother in one and she would proudly show off her pride and joy to her friends. Christmas I spent at the camp not wishing to go home as I wanted to enjoy service life to the full. I withdrew my name from the list of those wishing to go home to allow the married ones a better chance of selection. Periodically we used to do guard duty. This involved being on duty from 6pm until 8am the next day. One did stints of two hours on and four hours off and we usually slept in the guard room cells. Some did duty on the main gate and others patrolled the perimeter fence. The shifts 12 to 2am and 2 to 4am were in my opinion the worst. I remember on one occasion falling asleep in the sentry box and nearly falling over as I slept. God knows what would have happened if the orderly officer had come around. Tell that the circulated camp was that Naval Fleet Air Arm types who assisted their mates to enter the camp after the magic hour of 23.59 by fixing their bayonets to the rifles. Pushing them through the chain link fence to form a sort of ladder. Coming up this way one of the bayonets snapped off. What was the outcome I never did know or whether it was true. Completion of the course in February ’43 we attended a passing our parade, informed of our postings, given a travel warrant and sent home on a weeks’ well-earned leave. We had previously been asked where we’d like to be posted and I opted for Ibsley near Ringwood. A Spitfire fighter station. Whether they did this deliberately to post you as far from the location desired I don’t know but I was posted to 1651 Heavy Conversion Unit, Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire.
CB: Right. We’ll stop this for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: You mentioned the passing out parade from the end of your training. So how did that go?
PC: Well, the square bashing do you mean? After doing the foot drill.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Yeah. What did that involve?
CB: Yeah. When you’d finished your technical training you had your passing out parade.
PC: Technical training.
CB: Yeah. Before you were posted elsewhere. So what, what was the passing out parade?
PC: I can’t remember really. I think we just had to march past the CO and eyes right and off you go.
CB: Yes. And did they give you something in terms of certificate. Or —
PC: No. No.
CB: Families invited or anything like that?
PC: No. No. No. No.
CB: Right. And did you get a bean feast afterwards?
PC: A bean feast?
CB: A pub. Food.
PC: No. No. You were sent home on leave.
CB: Right. That was the reward [laughs]
PC: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
PC: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: So when you joined the RAF you were an AC2. How did the promotion go from there?
PC: Well, the next stage was AC1. And then LAC. Leading Aircraftmen. I think nowadays they follow the Army and they call them corporals.
CB: Well, I think they’ve still got LAC and SAC.
PC: Yeah. Have they?
CB: Senior Aircraftsman. So at what stage were you, did you become a Leading Aircraftsman? At the end of your technical training was it?
PC: After I’d been on the Heavy Conversion Unit for a bit.
CB: When you got on with it. Right. Ok. So you were posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit. That was at Waterbeach. So, what was your role there?
PC: Just —
CB: Because you are now technically what’s your description of your trade at that stage?
PC: I’m a flight mechanic.
CB: Right.
PC: Flight mechanic air frame. Yeah. Arrived at the camp at about [pause] it was quite dark. Reported to the guard room. Soon allocated a billet. Guided to the dining for a much needed meal. Quite bewildered. At the same time thrilled to hear the roar of aircraft engines as the planes were taking off from the airfield.
CB: What were the aircraft?
PC: Stirlings.
CB: Right.
PC: The airfield was about four miles from Cambridge. Only built during the general rearmament programme of the late 1930s. Officially opened in 1941. Earmarked to be a heavy bomber station. When I arrived it was equipped with the Short Stirling four engine bomber. I was a little disappointed to find that the unit was not on operational one but involved with the final training of aircrews before going on to an operational squadron. Stirlings were given this role because the Lancaster and Halifax heavy bombers coming on stream were far superior in Bomber Command in bomb carrying capacity and ability to fly at high altitudes. Stirlings had been designed in 1936 but its projected wing span of a hundred and twelve feet had to be reduced to less than a hundred to be accommodated in the hangars. This would seriously affect its ability to fly any higher than about eighteen thousand feet and was therefore more vulnerable to anti-aircraft and fighter attack. Its robust construction based on the Sunderland ensured that it would withstand serious battle damage. It was used successfully as the main bomber along with the Wellington. But as night fighter operations improved these losses were unsustainable. Stirlings last big operational roles was when it was used as a paratroop carrier. And the towing of gliders during D-Day and at Arnhem. It was at Arnhem that my brother Jim was captured and spent the rest of the war in a prisoner of war camp. My first day on the flights when I was introduced to these huge monsters towering above me left me a little awestruck by its sheer size. This was certainly a big aeroplane standing about twenty feet high. Twenty eight feet high on its huge ungainly undercarriage. My job as a flight mechanic was to carry out daily inspections. Checking the tyres, tyre creep, leaks from the oleo struts, free working of the ailerons, rudders and elevators and inspect for damage generally. Checking the cockpit. The operational controls. The most frightening task for me was the cleaning of the cockpit windscreen and windows. This necessitated climbing out of an escape hatch midway along the fuselage, walking along to the cockpit and then lying down to clean the Perspex windows. At first I would crawl on my hands and knees up the fuselage much to the amusement of the old hands. After a few days I became as blasé about it as they were and would quickly clamber along the fuselage ignoring the height above the ground. Refuelling held its dangers too. The training of pilot and co-pilot to successfully take off and land at night and to get the rest of the crew to operate as an efficient unit. Night flying was the norm for this work and on its completion usually about two or three in the morning one of the jobs was to refuel the aircraft so that it was ready for immediate take off. The Stirling had fourteen tanks in the wings holding over two thousand two hundred gallons of fuel. On a cold winter’s night this was a gruelling task. To hold open the nozzle to allow the petrol to flow in to the tanks hands and fingers soon became numb with cold. Accentuated by the high octane fuel. I’d not been there long when my turn for night flying duties. This meant being, among other things being on standby on the flight hut to answer requests from the pilot for a supply of compressed air. In night flying operation the aircraft would be doing circuits and bumps continued throughout the night. The small engine driven pumps which fitted to the aircraft could not maintain enough compressed air in the [floor cylinder] to cope with the continual application of the aircraft air brakes. After a number of landings and take off a cylinder would need replenishing. My job was to meet the aircraft on the perimeter, top up as necessary. Rather than wait in the cold flight for a call out many of us would join the aircrews with a fully charged air cylinder and enjoy the thrills of night flying. Sans parachute I might add. When the top up cylinder was empty we would leave the aircraft. Turn to the flight and have to wait for the next call. At the end of the night flying the next task would be to meet the aircraft on the perimeter. Guide it to its dispersal point on the flight. On my first occasion the duty corporal took pity on me and told me he would delay my introduction to this task as long as possible. Whether he doubted my competence I know not. There was suddenly a flurry of activity and with the phone ringing continuously, airmen gathering up torches and disappearing into the night I found I was the only one apart from the corporal left in the hut. The phone rang and he reluctantly handed me two small torches and told me to guide G-George to its dispersal point with some brief warnings of the possible dangers. Out I ventured in the total darkness to meet this huge monster towering above me on the perimeter track. Along with my two torches waving them in the prescribed manner I gradually brought the aircraft with its roaring engines and red hot exhaust to its dispersal point. Now came the tricky bit where it was necessary to turn the aircraft in a complete circle on the frying pan to be ready for refuelling. One had to be careful to keep in full view of the pilot. Not to stumble or trip otherwise one might be run over by the tail wheels as the aircraft turned around in the tight space. With heart thumping and nerves frayed I managed this without a mishap. I’ve often wondered if the pilot ever thought how vulnerable the poor ground crews were when carrying out this type, this operation. Back in the flight hut I don’t know to this day who was more relieved. Me or the corporal. Periodically, as well as doing a guard duty on the main gate on the perimeter of the station we also had to do a kite guard. Kite being slang for an aeroplane. For this duty one would have a couple of blankets, go to a designated aircraft and spend a night guarding the aircraft. I cannot recall whether we were armed or not or how effective the guard was is debatable. Whenever I did this duty I would spend the time exploring the aircraft, playing the various roles of bomber crews. I imagined I would assume the duty of the pilot, co-pilot, flying over Germany and the North Sea to the target. When tiring of this I would then take on the role of the bomb aimer. Lie down in his position in the front at the front and guide the plane and drop the bombs. Other roles would be front, rear and mid-upper gunners. Sitting in their turrets and shooting down enemy fighters. Although I fantasised playing these roles I never felt I would be suitable as an aircraft member. Aircrew member. Partly as I did not consider my education, background good enough at the time. Aircrews were recruited from the universities and Grammar Schools and my basic elementary schooling was not good enough. As war progressed and a shortage of suitable candidates became apparent particularly for the flight engineers. I would probably have been acceptable. By this time I’d retrained as a fitter and was quite happy in that role. For sleeping there was a foldaway stretcher located in the fuselage but sleep was an uncomfortable experience, climbs in the aircraft on a cold winter’s night. And equally so on a hot summer’s night. At 6am in the morning loud banging on this aircraft would awaken one and you would stagger off to the dining hall for a cup of tea and an early breakfast. But the ordinary perk was the cooks were generally sympathetic and generous at that hour. I had not been at Waterbeach long when it came apparent getting around a camp site, a bicycle was required so I wrote home and asked my mother to send my bicycle to me. She did. Registered. And I was mobile. A cycle was as essential in those days as a car is today. Visits to Cambridge and the local villages was easily accomplished with the minimum of effort. This being the fen country it was very flat. Very few hills to negotiate. This part of the country was ideal for the location of bomber stations so that although heavy laden to take off safely. Cambridge was a beautiful city with its many fine buildings, colleges and the River Cam running through it and I spent much of my free time exploring its many features. Cambridge being a university with its teaming population of undergraduates I found it difficult in coming to terms with. I was brought up to the idea that one had to get out to work and earn a living as soon as possible. My mother did not encourage one in the value of education. In fact, by her intransigence she discouraged me from taking the entrance to the local Grammar School. At the time, 1943 Cambridge was full of American servicemen and I’m afraid us poor erks could not compete either financially for the favours of the local girls. We had to be content with the NAAFI, Toc H, Sally Ann, for entertainment. Plus the cinemas. I remember there was some trouble when some time expired servicemen returned from their tour of duty in North Africa and many confrontations occurred between the two factions. I found it more expedient to stick to the village and Waterbeach itself than get involved in any trouble. My father died in November ’43. Flight Sergeant Mills took me under his wing and helped me through the trauma and he often took me to the British Legion club in the village where he was a much respected and popular friend. As spring arrived the hours of daylight increased. The trainee aircrews were required to wear goggles with dark lenses in order that flying hours were maintained. The runways were illuminated with sodium lights to complete the illusion of night flying. This almost around the clock flying put quite a strain on the servicing ground crews. But with the increasing aircraft production losses of aircrews by enemy action it was necessary to maintain a flow. One day while working on the flights [unclear] came and said anyone would like to retrain as a fitter 2. This was an upgraded group 1 in trade structure in the RAF was highly regarded as it opened up the route to promotion. I asked when mine would be likely to be selected, know if to be selected and how that might be. He told me it would be several months before it would come about. Thinking to myself it would get me off the flights for the winter months I put my name forward. Rather than months, a couple of weeks later given a weeks’ leave and told to report to Number 1 School Of Technical Training at Halton to begin a fitter’s conversion course [pause] on the 2nd of July 1943. Number 1 School of Technical Training, RAF Station Halton. Halton was the home of the boy entrants in the RAF and affectionately known as Trenchard’s Brats. The terms of service was to fulfil twelve years of service from the age of eighteen when the option to sign on for a period if they so desired. The apprenticeship was four to five years duration and they seemed to be the cream of the tradesmen and indeed they were. The war was a Godsend to that force with the rapid expansion of the Air Force. Many were promoted to high ranking position both as officers and senior NCOs. So they did well. Volunteers and conscripts like myself after completing a flight mechanic’s course the period on the squadron required to do a conversion course of fourteen weeks to be brought up to the required standard. I think I was the youngest and certainly the lowest in rank at AC2, Aircraftman Second Class. Many were LACs, Leading Aircraftsmen with several years service to their credit. RAF Halton near Wendover in Buckinghamshire was situated uphill from the town. Every day we would form up on the square, march to the training workshops. The Brats would lead the parade with the mascot of a goat, a goat and the station band at the head. The Brats were distinguished by wearing cheese cutters. Peak cap, with a chequered brim on the edge whilst we wore the Glengarry type of head gear. One of our entry also wore a cheese cutter as he had had the devil’s own job to convince the RAF police that he was not a Brat. One night on the town he had been an aircrew member and lost all his hair as result of some trauma and had permission to wear the cap to avoid embarrassment. The course, like the flight mechanic’s was fairly intensive dealing with basic engineering, metal repairs, hydraulics, minor and major inspections. A lot of instruction involved American aircraft such as the Kitty Hawk, Tomahawk and the methods used in the servicing of these aircraft. Weekends we could not obtain a pass we were expected to take part in some sporting activity. The skivers among us would often choose the cross country run over the hills and through the woods down to Tring. At some convenient spot we would hide, enjoy a crafty smoke and wait for the main pack and rejoin them for the return to the camp. Those who declined to take part in any of these activities would find themselves detailed for spud bashing which involved the peeling and removing the eyes from the potatoes. Halton was conveniently placed near London. And weekends we could spend in the city. We used to stay in the YMCA hospital, hostel at Westminster. Therefore we’d be taken by bus to a section of the underground not used by the railway. Here three tiered bunks were provided at a shilling. 5p per night. You took pot luck as to who your fellow borders might be and hoped they would not be too drunk or awkward. Other times when I stayed in camp I would explore the local towns of Aylesbury, Rickmansworth, Tring etcetera. During wartime these were pretty boring places to be for a serviceman as with beer in short supply unless you were a regular you could not hope to get served in any pub. Whilst at Halton the forty third intake of Brats came to the end of their course. We were all given a forty eight pass and told to leave the camp or stay at our peril. When we returned to the camp we’d seen why we had been told to get out. The place was in a shambles. Beds and mattresses hanging from windows, forty free entry signs daubed on walls and general mayhem everywhere. Apparently it was a tradition that on the completion of a course the Brats were given a free hand to celebrate their final days at Halton. The new entry would have the job of cleaning up the ensuing mess. Which gave them the incentive that they could do better when they completed their course. However, when we finished the privilege [pause] however when we finished the privilege was not granted to us. I completed the conversion course and now fitter 2A still with the rank of AC2. This gave me an increase in pay and I was now in group one of the trade hierarchy of the Air Force. Sent home and then posted back to 1651 at Waterbeach.
Other: A rest.
CB: I think we’d better stop there. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re taking a pause now because Bob’s getting a bit tired. We’ve got to the stage where he’s returned to Stradishall and there’s a lot more to be covered in the later part of the war and afterwards in the Far East. So we’re going to reconvene. Much of what he’s been speaking about he’s got directly from his own book, “Stirlings, Sentinels and Dakotas.” So, more later.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Percival Robert Court
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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ACourtPR171211
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00:57:38 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
British Army
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Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Skegness
England--London
Netherlands
Netherlands--Arnhem
Description
An account of the resource
Percival Robert Court joined the Air Training Corps in March 1941, volunteering for the Royal Air Force at the earliest age of seventeen and a half. Training at RAF Cardington, he became a flight mechanic. He then moved to Skegness to continue into formal training, including lectures on sex education and venereal disease. He states that sex was never discussed and that it was taboo and rumours they were putting bromide in the water. Alongside this, he outlines several examples of social meetings within the base staff, including shared songs and daily prayers at RAF Hednesford, as well as when his father died in 1943 and he relied on his wing commander to help him through the tough ordeal. He then recounts his training and experiences at RAF Hednesford, explaining the very high marks that were required to continue on his mechanic course as well as commonly having to take guard shifts and night operations. Percival was posted to Heavy Conversion Unit 1651 at RAF Waterbeach, of which he then outlines his daily required workings and several experiences with Stirlings and Lancasters. He also sets aside time to remember his brother, who was captured at Arnhem, being imprisoned for the remainder of the war. Based at RAF Halton, Percival took a course that allowed him to be promoted, as well as higher pay, learning information about American aircraft and spending his weekends in wartime London. When the war came to an end, he was given 48 hours to leave the base and no celebration. Percival Robert Court believes his mother saved his life by not letting him go to a grammar school, explaining that if she had, he would have died in an aircrew.
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1941-03
1943
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
1651 HCU
civil defence
dispersal
faith
fitter airframe
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
mechanics airframe
perimeter track
prisoner of war
RAF Cardington
RAF Halton
RAF Hednesford
RAF Waterbeach
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/786/9341/PWildesJE180829.1.jpg
20072f7f64debe87ec906cbfd6e26011
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/786/9341/AWildesJE180829.1.mp3
e631f87cbb026ea8770f4a9901045618
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wildes, Jim
James Ernest Wildes
J E Wildes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with James Wildes (1923 - 2019, Royal Air Force).
He failed aircrew selection due to ear problems and so served as ground personnel.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wildes, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MH: That’s great. Well, first of all Jim I’m delighted to come and meet you today and listen to, to your story. I know a little about you. I hope to when I leave at the end to know far more. Ok. There’s a little bit I’ve just got to say at the start so that people listening to this back at the Bomber Command Centre know exactly where we are and what we’re doing. So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Martyn Hordern. That’s myself. The interviewee is James Wildes. The interview is taking place at the Tri Services and Veteran Support Centre, Hassell Street, Newcastle, Staffordshire. Also present is Peter Batkin who is a friend of Jim. The date is the 29th of August 2018 and the time by my watch is quarter past eleven in the morning. I know from just talking to you Jim that you were born on the 18th of July 1923. Where was that then? Where were you born?
JW: Burton on Trent.
MH: Ok. Tell me a bit about your parents and your family life as, as a lad.
[pause]
JW: We lived with my, my dad and mother and the tribe that, because she had six children and I was the eldest lived in South Oxford Street, Burton on Trent. My dad was out of work for seven or eight years during the recession of that time. My mother was a tailoress and she worked from home reversing coats and that sort of thing because that was the way you lived those days.
MH: Did your, did your dad serve in the First World War?
JW: Yes. He was in the Staffordshires.
MH: How long did he serve during the war?
JW: He served in the, in the First World War and a little bit afterwards in Ireland. I don’t think he’d signed on. It was like it was at the end of —
MH: Yeah.
JW: The Second World War. You could do another year before you got home.
MH: So, so as a young lad what did, I take it you went to school. What age did you leave school?
JW: Fourteen.
MH: Ok.
JW: Because of my birthday coming in July I did the eleven plus twice. The first time I failed. The second time I got enough to pass to secondary school. Not to Grammar School. But my mother couldn’t afford uniform so we got a deal where I went to Union Street one day per week at government expense.
MH: Right. And then when you left school what did you do?
JW: I was training to be an apprentice joiner and carpenter because my grandad, the other Ernie he, he was a master joiner. And I worked with him whenever I could from fourteen on but I had to have another job to support the family because he was a jobbing joiner that had contracted for jobs. We used to do South African Railway carriages and it all came pre-packed. And you always put in Baguleys of Burton on Trent and he would, he would, we would put it together like you do things these days. Cut it all in.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In South African Railways style.
MH: Right. So then the Second World War came along. You were —
JW: Well —
MH: You were just sixteen.
JW: I I’d, around about fourteen I joined the Boy’s Brigade and there was an RAF section in it of about four of us and on Sundays sometimes we went to Burnaston Aerodrome which is now a car factory and we could swing a Tiger Moth. And I got one flight of it because occasionally an RAF retired officer turned up to fly this thing.
MH: And that was the first time you ever went in a plane?
JW: Yes, was. That was my first time.
MH: So, so, the Second World War started. You were, you were just sixteen.
JW: Yes.
MH: What were you doing then?
JW: I I was still doing, well I eventually got, what happened was that, that the restrictions on my grandfather forced both he and I to join another joinery firm because there was no longer small businesses around. We were forced in to wartime things from 1938 so, I became a bound apprentice with Sharp Brother and Knight of Burton on Trent. Around about seventeen the Boy’s Brigade sent me to Cardington for an interview for aircrew which I failed because I’d got bad ears and in those days those aircraft weren’t pressurised. So they, but I did the exam and they recommended and gave me a little notation that I go in to Derby when I was seventeen and half to recruit as a VR. Which I did.
MH: What’s a VR?
[pause]
JW: Volunteer Reserve.
MH: Right.
JW: Yes.
MH: Thank you. So, by that time we were sort of talking about towards the end of 1940 are we then, at that point?
JW: No. We’re talking about 1941.
MH: Right. In to, yeah.
JW: Early in 1941 that happened. At seventeen and a half I had to get my dad’s signature to be able to join the Air force which I did and took to Derby.
MH: What was your parents view of that at the time then? Seeing as you didn’t —
JW: Well, my dad didn’t want me to join but my mother said it’s alright.
MH: What was the reason your dad didn’t want you to join?
JW: Well, he’d been at, I think Mons during the First World War for some time.
MH: So, he’d been at the start.
JW: So, he’d been in that and he was on Gallipoli as well.
MH: So he, do you think he knew a bit more about what you were likely to face than what your mum did?
JW: Yes. Exactly.
MH: So, so you up at sixteen and a half. Where was the first place you —
JW: Well, I didn’t actually get in until June or July. They called me in.
MH: So you were just about eighteen then.
JW: Yes. And they followed the recommendation to send me to Halton for aircraft training, which I did. I went to Halton and joined the RAF. And I passed out second in an entry of about eighty people that were doing a joining course like, it was split in to two halves. A bit for engines and a bit for airframes and I was, I came second and was sent on for on the job training at Abingdon.
MH: Right.
JW: On Hampdens and Whitleys.
MH: Yeah. So where was Halton then? Whereabouts is Halton? I know where Abingdon is.
JW: Halton is Wendover. Very very near. Do you know Wendover?
MH: I’ve heard of it.
JW: Yes. Very near to Chequers.
MH: And Abingdon obviously became a car factory. A car factory wasn’t it?
JW: Yes. This Abingdon was, they trained you on, on real aircraft.
MH: Right. So —
JW: And then they took me back to once I was trained on. So that was my first [pause] Abingdon was 10 OTU and the Whitleys and Hampdens were flying aircraft. So that was Bomber Command.
MH: And what, what were you doing when you were there? You said on the job training. What was your, what was your, what were you trained?
JW: I was trained on, on the Abingdons and the Whitleys and also we strung up a a biplane as well. So I was trained mainly on aircraft rather than engines.
MH: Right. So, so you just, you just said stringing up a plane.
JW: Yeah.
MH: Now that, what’s that then?
JW: A biplane.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Where you, you were setting all the angles etcetera and I learned the fifty seven point three method of, of angles.
MH: And what’s, the fifty seven point three method?
JW: Well, if you, if you, you take [reckoning] of fifty seven point three in a circle, make a circle at that radius for every one unit is one degree all the way around the circle.
MH: Right. So —
JW: So, you could set controls, the rudders all that sort of thing by doing that. A mathematical job.
MH: And was there much difference between a biplane which was obviously getting almost obsolete at that point and then the bigger planes that you were working on?
JW: Well, the bigger planes were really had main spars which also held the undercarriage and that sort of thing. And usually there were [pause] they had bomb doors which worked with elastic. Those days the bomb dropped and opened the door [laughs]
MH: Yeah. Ok. So you’d done that initial training.
JW: Yes. And then Halton called me back to do the fitter course and and to give me the full trade because I came out first as an AC. I joined the RAF at AC2 level. So I, my first entry got me an AC1 at, at aircraft engineering level. But my second training I was fourth in the entry of fifty and that got me an LAC recommendation.
MH: What does LAC stand for?
JW: Leading aircraftsman. It’s like a lance corporal in the Army.
MH: And how long had you been in the RAF at that point?
JW: About, well my first course ended on March ’42. My second course I got posted in February ’43 after the end of the second course to Pershore which was another OTU opening up in Gloucestershire. So, and this was another. I was on Wellingtons so it was another Bomber Command area.
MH: And did, when you moved to a different aircraft were there similarities or were they things that you had to get used to all over again?
JW: Yeah. You had to get used to new things but on the second course at Halton they had embraced various changes that were taking place. And also on that second course they’d also embraced little bits about American aircraft as well as British aircraft and I was interested in American aircraft as well as British ones.
MH: So, you were at Pershore.
JW: So, I went to Pershore.
MH: OTU is operational —
JW: 23 OTU.
MH: Operational Training Unit.
JW: Yes. It was just opening up. We had no aircraft at all. The hangar wasn’t open. The workmen were still working on it. The cookhouse was an open cookhouse because that part wasn’t built but we were in the four huts that were built. One of the four huts that were, were starting the unit off. We had no aircraft at all and one arrived about two weeks after I arrived at Pershore. There was, we put it out on a distant little field, picketed it down for the night and we were bombed that night. But it didn’t get the aircraft. It got little bits near to the hangar.
MH: So you, the plane you basically moved the plane away from the main buildings for that reason.
JW: Yes. That’s right. Picketed it down.
MH: Yeah. What sort of strip was it there? Was it hardstanding or was it grass?
JW: Hardstanding.
MH: So it would be tarmac. Tarmac.
JW: Yes. The strip was there and we picketed on one of the, on one of the ends. There were several different areas and we picketed on one of those.
MH: So how long before you started getting more planes?
JW: We then got the planes at about one a week for a few weeks and then two or three a week and these were delivered direct from the manufacturer and our job was to bring them up to standard. Put the turrets in. The extra seating. All the little bits that went in for radar and various things that was coming in. And we dispersed those to other airfields down Gloucestershire and Worcestershire.
MH: So, so it sounds like there was a lot to do to get those planes ready.
JW: Yes. By that time the hangar was going so we had a corner of the hangar that we would be a team. As the aircraft came from the makers they came completely empty with ballast in place of things. So you were getting the ballast out, putting the turrets in in place of the ballast and the various other things that you had to do like second pilot seats and various things. There was cable cutters to put in to the wings in case the Wimpie was flying and had to cut a cable on a balloon.
MH: So how long did that take to get a plane from from you receiving it from the factory to then being ready to to actually start to fly?
JW: Well, it probably on the team turn out one a week once we were geared up to do so.
MH: And how many were on your team?
JW: And there would probably be an engine fitter, an airframe fitter, an electrician would do two or three teams. Same with an instrument man and the radio people came in when they were needed.
MH: Right. So, so you, over a period of time you’ve all had these planes slowly coming from the factory.
JW: And being dispersed.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In Worcestershire and Gloucestershire and at various aerodromes like.
MH: Right.
JW: There was many. So, there was about eight aerodromes down that, all being built.
MH: Yeah.
JW: And —
MH: So, so was Pershore the hub for all these to come in to, in to —
JW: All these.
MH: And you would get them ready.
JW: Yes.
MH: And then you would move them out.
JW: Yeah.
MH: So, so was that basically all your job entailed? Oh, that sounds a bit disrespectful.
JW: Yes, I —
MH: But was that all just basically like a production line of planes coming in and going out.
JW: And going out. Yes.
MH: So was there, was there any flying at Pershore? Was it a flying airfield as well?
JW: Oh yes. It was an airfield, and flew. It had its own aircraft as well.
MH: Right.
JW: Probably about eight I think that got it in two. It was 23 OTU but they got it in A and B Flights or they might have even had C.
MH: Yeah.
JW: But they got about eight aircraft of their own on dispersals which I didn’t take part in.
MH: No.
JW: Because I was in the teams that were shoving them out.
MH: Yeah. So the A and B flights had their own mechanics.
JW: Yeah. They were mechanics rather than fitters.
MH: So, so what was it like fitting, fitting a turret to, how many turrets did you fit into a Wellington then?
JW: Well, the, we were on Wellington 3s and that was the, the advanced turret for the rear end because Wellington bombers you couldn’t get out of the turret excepting back in to the aircraft. It didn’t have enough angle. But the Wellington 3 did and if you had to eject in the air it could turn round and the man could fall out of the turret.
MH: Right.
JW: And bale out.
MH: So how long did you stay at Pershore doing that sort of work?
JW: September ’43. [pause] September ’43 I got a posting to 206 Squadron. They was at Benbecula flying Hudsons but I didn’t get there because I got part way there, as far as Wick, by Aberdeen and they turned me back to Liverpool. Gave me a new warrant to get to Liverpool and then across the water to the Wirral to an Army unit because 206 Squadron Benbecula were breaking up in flights and I was on what was called 8206 which was a Combined Ops Unit and I joined this Army unit as the RAF and some people had come already from Benbecula. There was about fifty of us altogether in the RAF forming up to go to go to, eventually to the Azores but we weren’t given the information.
MH: But you didn’t know where you were going.
JW: We didn’t know where we were going.
MH: So, what was the, so you were there. How many were there from the RAF then?
JW: There was about, well there was supposed to be a thousand RAF, a thousand Army and a thousand Navy.
MH: Right. So it was a big outfit.
JW: Yes. Because where ever we were going it was a Combined Ops Unit. We were, we were liable to have to be under canvas for a certain length of time.
MH: So how long were you? You say you were on the Wirral? Do you know?
JW: Well, about two weeks. We, we had got certain bits of kit and a sten gun and a little bit of training and square mess tins. We had to hand our round tins in for square mess tins.
MH: Were rounds ones particular to the RAF I take it?
JW: No. The round ones were on issue to everybody at that time.
MH: Right.
JW: But the square mess tin fitted the, the ration packs that were coming in.
MH: Yeah.
JW: At that time. So, we had to have a square mess tin.
MH: And you said you got some training with a sten gun so you were taught to shoot were you then?
JW: We were taught to shoot. We were taught a little bit about self-defence. We were taught to use our mess tins and given a mug which was china and needless to say you soon broke the mug.
MH: So, so what, what did you think when suddenly you’d gone from fitting turrets on to Wellingtons to now you’re on the Wirral in this this other unit of soldiers and other, and sailors and suddenly they’re teaching you to fire guns.
JW: Well, we were there about two weeks kitting out etcetera and then we, we joined, they brought us back to Liverpool dock, the Liver Dock and we joined the Franconia which was a troop ship. And that night we sailed across the water to Bangor Harbour where the rest of the people came in. The rest of the three thousand people came in. I was only on a unit of about fifty which was 8206. There were other RAF people around but we did different units.
MH: Did you know where you were going at that point?
JW: No. That, that same evening we must have left Bangor because when we woke up on, on we were below decks and the weather broke up the next morning.
MH: I’m going to just pause there.
[recording paused]
MH: Right. Just to explain to people listening to this recording we’ve just a very important thing which was sorting out lunch for Jim and Pete. So, we’re just starting again. So, you were just at the point where you’d set sail.
JW: We’d sailed.
MH: You were below decks and you woke up the next morning.
JW: We woke up the next morning and we’d come out of Bangor and we were now heading west. Due west. And this went on for about two days and we thought, everyone thought we’re going to Iceland because we were going in that direction. Suddenly we turned left and started in a southerly direction. This went on for about another day and we joined up with a, with a Navy ship. A Destroyer, and he was hovering around us and about four days later we overtook a flotilla of merchant ships that had other Navy ships around them and an aircraft carrier. And at that time our officers were drawn in to tell us that we were going to land in the Azores.
MH: Which was part of Portugal, wasn’t it?
JW: Which was part of Portugal.
MH: A neutral country.
JW: And this was before Winston Churchill had announced anything about this island.
MH: Right.
JW: This, this island was called Terceira. It was a small volcanic island with [barefoots] so we were all given the necessary jabs up our backsides because they were worried about plagues and that sort of thing. And then we arrived on a Sunday afternoon. The, there was a big Navy ship offloading boats to get us from the, from our ship and from the merchant ships to the shore.
MH: I take it there wasn’t a harbour as such then.
JW: On a little harbour called [pause] [unclear] or something like that. It was a little harbour. Anyway, we, we all assembled with our kit and of course the RAF volunteered [laughs] to go as soon as possible and we jumped in to these boats because the sea was rather rough, running at about ten foot, landing craft and got to shore where, where the other people that was before us were receiving all sorts of things ashore. And there was tea laid on but the rest of it was our own rations. So we went on shift. Four hours on two hours off day and night. And that’s how we spent that first night was working for four hours unloading things on the shore and the Army had put up [tents] and tents loosely to an area outside town on the side of a volcano.
MH: Right. So you spent all night unloading and sorting all your stuff out.
JW: Yeah. Well, the next morning 8206 were called together and we, we were told to put our stuff in to a lorry because we were going roughly twenty five mile across country to where we were going to build an Air Force station. We were going to lay plate runway to form a runway and dispersals. We would be in tents for up to a year and we would be on rations, our own rations but two hot meals a day. Breakfast and dinner. There would be no lights. It would just be an encampment in tents. Eight to a tent.
MH: So you started from scratch really.
JW: Yes. And we went over, that day we went over and we started laying, there was no aircraft around. We started laying a strip because the Army was ahead of us in their knocking walls down and things to make an airstrip and that afternoon the Seafires off the aircraft carrier landed on the strip that we’d already prepared.
MH: So you didn’t hang around then. You got it down quick fairly quickly.
JW: Hmmn?
MH: You got, you got your work —
JW: We got enough.
MH: To do that. Yeah.
JW: To land Seafires —
MH: Yeah.
JW: Down in that same afternoon. Because we’d gone first light in the morning and with, as, as strip runway came in we laid it.
MH: Right. How long did it take you to finish laying the full —
JW: Oh well, we were on that as well as our own aircraft. Two days later our aircraft came in from America and we were now on B17s.
MH: So, there’s no, you hadn’t got any British planes as such it was just —
JW: Pardon?
MH: Had you got any British planes there? Bombers or were they —
JW: No. No. No. We had the Seafires. They used, they were on a dispersal and they flew from their own dispersal and they’d somehow or another got one or two people over to help them out. We refuelled from Jerry cans with, because it was all over the wing refuelling and we had no tankers whatsoever. We refuelled from Jerry cans in to a funnel with a, with a filter at the bottom.
MH: It took a bit longer to fill up then normal then.
JW: Oh, good lord, it was. We had no no tanker. A few weeks later, about a fortnight later I went over, I was given civilian overalls to go to the main island to see if we could find a fuel storage unit because Jerry cans were such a pain to refuel with. You know. A five, you could damage the aircraft let alone anything else.
MH: So, you’d got these B17s. were they piloted by American crews?
JW: They, they were piloted by British crews.
MH: Right.
JW: And they were marionised with a radar unit that came down the fuselage and out at the tail wheel. And this was a Canadian unit and they brought one Canadian with them who taught us to, how to polish the wave guide because it was a five inch wave guide and the magnetron was in like a Smith’s biscuit tin which we had to take the lid off every day and polish up the, the prongs.
MH: So was that a particular piece of kit for what they were doing?
JW: No. They —
MH: Or just a general.
JW: The Canadians. It was apparently used for fishing. To find shoals of fish but they’d adapted it to find submarines.
MH: Right.
JW: And so with sonar buoys at strategic places and the mathematics of it all and we had all sorts of radio aerials along the roof of the, of the B17 they could bring in the Navy or the merchant ship, carry their own depth charges if they had to do and find not fish but submarines.
MH: A clever idea. Do you remember what squadron that was?
JW: We were, it was 206 Squadron. We were, we were still 8206 [coughs] because we were like the maintenance team for the squadron.
MH: So, when —
JW: And then about [coughs] that probably went on until about [pause] well I broke a finger just before Christmas and had to have like a tennis racket where it pulled it all out. It did heal in the end so I was, I was in hospital. A Portuguese hospital run, a ward run by the, by the Army or Navy or RAF over Christmas day. But I was only in for about three days after Christmas and when I got back to the unit which was, which the Army had made us like a servicing bay knocking a lump out of, out of the volcano edging because we were like now probably three or four hundred foot above the sea level. When we, when I got back to them there was now 209 Squadron as well as 206 Squadron there so we were getting we had about nine aircraft, B17s, altogether.
MH: And these were all equipped with the same instrumentation to find submarines.
JW: Yes. They had the same. The same sort of kit on and they’d come with the 209 Squadron crews which we, we only saw them come to the aircraft, fly them and that was it and then they’d be gone to where ever they were billeted.
MH: Right. And did, how successful were they at catching submarines? Did you ever get to hear?
JW: Well, I think that it assisted the Navy. They certainly got one submarine as we were coming. The Navy got one submarine as we were coming to land originally because there was subs in that area and they certainly were feeding the subs on the surface and we, because the, the Canary Islands were supplying fuel for all these subs and things.
MH: Right. Because they were under Spain which was fascist, wasn’t it?
JW: They were in Spain you see and we knew that this was happening so we were always overflying that, those areas.
MH: Right.
JW: So, I think they certainly altered the name of the game for, for the ships that were refuelling submarines.
MH: So, it seems to me that at times you were perhaps only aware of what work you were doing. You didn’t see —
JW: Yes.
MH: The pilots flying the planes.
JW: That’s right. Yes.
MH: You didn’t find out how successful. You just did your job.
JW: I did my job. I was sent once to try to get a fuel tanker from the main island which is St Miguel or something like that of the Azores. And that was the only time I’d been at sea again. There was a sergeant sent with me and I was like a lance corporal.
MH: Right. So how long were you in the Azores for? Did that go on for a while?
JW: In, let me see [pause] can I just have a second to look at it?
MH: Of course, you can.
JW: I’ve had to pick this up from my records. [pause] Well, in about April they told us to, to shift all our inventories to 209 Squadron.
MH: This was 1944 at this point.
JW: So, that was 1944. April 1944, because our aircrew had gone back to Blighty and there was only 209 aircrew left on the island now to run these eight or nine B17s. We were told that we were being moved back to Blighty as a squadron. We didn’t know where to but what we knew was we were going back by Skymaster to [pause] to the western side of Africa and then flying on to Blighty by Skymasters because by now the Americans were bringing Skymasters in quite quickly, several a day and even Mitchells were coming through. They were using the airfield as a staging post and incidentally in January a new flotilla of of ships arrived bringing more stuff to the island because we’d been on our own for six months and used up nearly everything we’d brought. So, they’d brought in 209 Squadron servicing crew by ship. They’d brought in all sorts of materials to make decent Nissen huts for people to live in. We were still under canvas and remained under canvas until we moved.
MH: What was the weather like?
JW: Damp. It was the Azores. It’s good, goodish weather. It’ll grow small bananas and that sort of thing but it’s damp and there’s quite a lot of, quite a lot of rain.
MH: So not necessarily the best conditions to be under canvas.
JW: No. No.
MH: Were you aware that point how the war was going elsewhere? What were you hearing?
JW: Yes. We had a newspaper that came around. I think it was originally once a month and now it was probably a weekly one called, “The Azores Times.” I think. And we, we were kept assured of what was going on in Blighty. Anyway, we eventually got home piecemeal between Casablanca and, and the tip of Cornwall where we landed at, the Skymasters landed at St Mawgan. So I was home about May and the, the officer in charge said, ‘Ah, your squadron is at St Eval.’ So, he got me a garrey to get me to St Eval.
MH: Whats a garrey?
JW: A garrey is a lorry.
MH: Right. Right.
JW: To get me to St Eval. And there I, I was back with the rest of the lads. There was, we were the last two to get away from, from Casablanca because it was all done when we could get a flight.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Because there was mostly flights were for officers.
MH: Did you get a chance to have a walk around? Did you get in to town while you were in Casablanca? Did you get to see the sights?
JW: Oh yes. Yes. And I also did some work for the RAF unit because they were putting together American Lightnings as a twin boom Lightnings.
MH: Yeah P38s.
JW: Yes.
MH: So, so you get back to England.
JW: Yes.
MH: Was this just before D-Day and where —
JW: Yes. Yeah. This was about a week before D-Day and I was put on night shift. We lived at Morganporth in a commandeered hotel and we had dry rations. We didn’t have anything to do with St Eval as, as a unit. We were, we were on a dispersal about the furthermost away. They did bring a hot meal in. If you were on days you got it at lunchtime. If you were on nights you got it about two in the morning. So we were always kept. Had a hot meal on site. But we were permanently on site on twelve hours shifts. Twelve on. Twelve off.
MH: So were you with the squadron at this point in time or just with the, like —
JW: Yes. This was 206 Squadron.
MH: Right. Ok.
JW: We’ve now changed to Liberators by the way. We, the aircrew had adapted to Liberators.
MH: And did you have to do much to catch up in terms of work —
JW: Well, it was a question of a Liberator is another aircraft and you get used to knowing that aircraft are aircraft.
MH: And what were you, what was your job at that time? What were you were working on?
JW: Well, again being an LAC I I ran a little team of people.
MH: Right.
JW: About three mechanics. Three or four. Usually an engine mechanic, an air frame mechanic and one wanderer like an electrician or instruments or both.
MH: And what, what operations were the squadron involved in around about at that time?
JW: We were putting an anti-submarine because the Liberators were also anti- submarine. I don’t know quite what type because they didn’t seem to have the same scanners as a B17 so I didn’t know anything about that side of what they were scanning.
MH: And where were, where were—
JW: It must have been some sort of radar.
MH: Yeah. And what areas were they operating?
JW: They, they were covering Brest to the Irish Sea for anti-submarine block.
MH: And, and we were obviously getting around to D-Day at this point in time. Were you aware that that was, happened or, you know, you just carry on as normal? Or did you —
JW: Well, on I think it was the 5th of, was it June? D-Day.
MH: Yeah. 6th of June was the actual —
JW: The 6th. On the night of the 5th I was on duty that night and about five in the morning just as day was breaking there was a flotilla. A flotilla of B17s, Americans all painted up with the white stripes you know and there must have been a couple of hundred come over us at about 5 in the morning. Came over the top of us and flew on towards France. So that must have been the start of D-Day.
MH: And then how did your, how did 206 Squadron sort of carry on doing duty?
JW: We used, on our tannoy system which was separate to the station system if there was sighting of a U-boat they would send the message over and tell us what was happening by the air crew and two or three evenings we were told they were chasing U-boats and dropping DCs.
MH: Depth charges.
JW: Depth charges.
MH: So, so that was almost like a real time. You were told as it was happening.
JW: Yeah. Happening in real time.
MH: They’d relay. They’d relay the radio messages.
JW: Well, we went on for about a week there and then suddenly they said, ‘Well, go and take what you can of your kit. Bring in your kit. Bring in everything you’ve got. Take what you can of ground equipment because you’re going up to Leuchar, Scotland as a part of a unit of 206. Leaving some people in 206 looking after what they were looking after and you’re going up by train to Leuchar to set up a similar system from Leuchar on the North Sea.’
MH: And that’s what you did. And how long did that go on for?
JW: This went, we, we brought our kit in. The train we’d loaded what we could of ground equipment and tools and all that. Things that we think, thought we’d need. And we were at, we went up by slow train to Leuchar. This took about, there was rations put on so we had rations on the way and I think when we got to Leuchar there was a hot meal laid on and we went straight to the flight and some of our aircraft were now landing at Leuchar. Some of the, some of the Liberators were landing at Leuchar and in the Leuchar base was very near the sea because Leuchar is on a small island, just by the golf course and in on the sea front there was the RAF unit that ran MTBs. Motor torpedo boats. So we communicated with them that what would happen. We’d site where, where U-boats were and they would go out and see if they would surrender or, or get DC’d.
MH: And how long were you at Leuchar for?
JW: Probably a fortnight because in Leuchar they were asking, by then they were asking for people to go to India and, and look at the Far East. And there were people, they were looking for people that were single. Not married.
MH: You were still single at that time.
JW: So I was still single at that time so my CO said, ‘Will you volunteer?’ As usual. So, I was on my way then. I got a couple of days leave and down to, I think I went to Morecambe, I’m not sure. And a couple of days leave at home to Morecambe. Morecambe to Southampton by train and I found myself on the way to India at the [pause] when did I go to India? [pause] August 1944.
MH: Right.
JW: End of August. I landed actually in Calcutta. I landed at Worli. That’s the old, the old what’s it called now? In India.
MH: I’m not sure.
JW: Worli.
MH: I’m not sure about Worli because they’ve gone back to the original names not the anglicised names, haven’t they?
JW: Ceylon. Not.
MH: Oh, Sri Lanka are you on about? Sri Lanka? No.
JW: No. What’s Hollywood in [pause] Bollywood.
MH: Yeah.
JW: What town was that?
MH: I’m not sure to be honest. My Indian knowledge is not that good.
JW: I landed on that side of India.
MH: Yeah. Right.
JW: Caught a train across to Calcutta which wasn’t —
MH: It wasn’t Bombay. You’re not on about Bombay, are you?
JW: Bombay, landed Bombay. Worli. Caught a train the next day. A troop train going to Calcutta and we pushed it half the way.
MH: The train?
JW: It was a troop train so you’d, you’d go about four hours, five hours, something like that, all disembark for a hot cup of tea and your rations for that day. So you were still living on rations. Anyway, when I got to Calcutta I was posted to Dum Dum which was the Calcutta race course at that time. Now, it’s the airport but at that time it was just the racecourse. I was posted to a little unit called [pause] what was it called? Air Salvage and Servicing. It had three Dakotas that were all being modified to carry stuff externally as well as internally. And I was given my corporal tapes whilst I was on that unit because you couldn’t get permanent corporal. You could only be an LAC permanent. So each unit you went to you’d got to qualify to be an acting corporal.
MH: So what was, what was this air salvage —
JW: Air Salvage Unit. I joined a team, or I was in charge of a team as an acting corporal and we, we would be responsible for taking stuff in to the Burma area that was needed by squadrons. For instance on one occasion we, we took a, there was other teams taking things like Spitfires to pieces. We used to split the the Spitfire in to the engine, attach the prop off, the tail off and the empennage and one, one wing upside down with a fairing on the front hung by cables between, underneath the Dakota. The Spitfire we would fit inside the fuselage with the engine in the open doors which we dispersed with so we were now have got half of a Spitfire into a Dakota. We, we would go from Dum Dum to Agartala which was in Assam, north of the river, refuel and then fly on and in this particular instance to an airfield that you couldn’t get to in daytime because of volcanoes and things ad drop in there, offload my part of the gear. The pilot who was a Polish pilot that he had no, no navigational aids whatsoever. We, we used to fly, I used to fly with him and just follow the route that he told me to follow. Followed either a river or a railway line and just watch what was going on or fly a course where I was keeping to a course.
MH: And then, obviously you dropped off this Spitfire. Did you then bring —
JW: He came back for the other half.
MH: Right.
JW: And that would arrive the next morning.
MH: And then you had to put it together.
JW: And my, by that time we’d put as much of the Spitfire together with three of us as we could get together.
MH: Yeah. And was that something you did for quite a while in India?
JW: I did. I did Imphal Valley once. I did a lot of various drops. I worked for 31 Squadron for quite a while.
MH: What sort of squadron were they? Were they —
JW: They were another Dakota squadron.
MH: Right.
JW: That were supplying Chindits —
MH: Right.
JW: And people like the Chindits in, in Burma with mules. We even took mules in one day. I I wasn’t on that aircraft. That was one of our other aircraft.
MH: So how long did you stay in India for?
JW: Well, I, I was, I also did a trip from, starting at Agartala where, where I picked up a train load of Hurricanes because we couldn’t get the Hurricane. The Hurricane’s built differently to the Spitfire. You can’t get it in to a Dakota. You can get a wing on but you can’t get an outer wing. You can put on but you can’t get the centre section so we were taking Hurricanes and various other spares back to India to Kanpur which was the MU that put them together again. And this was a two week journey. Caught the, picked up the train and my rations and a sten gun. A colleague, there was two, always two of us on the train and apart from sten guns we had, we picked up a long range rifle. A Garand rifle for long distance shooting if, if we were being attacked. We would then go Cox’s Bazaar. Pick up some more kit there. Chittagong. Worked our way to the Brahmaputra point where the train would be offloaded and loaded on to barges and go up the Brahmaputra for about seven or eight hours to another port on the right hand side for, for narrow gauge use.
MH: Yes.
JW: And from there we would go, go to, to Kanpur and the whole journey would take about seven days if you were lucky. If you were unlucky it could take up to a fortnight.
MH: And when did you get back to the, get back to England then? How long before —
JW: Well, from that I went, I was on Ramree Island which is an island off Burma with 31 Squadron when the war ended. When the atom bomb, the second atom bomb dropped. And we were told to go to Mingaladon and be on, everybody at Mingaladon which was the bottom of Burma to wait for the Viceroy of India to come in and take the surrender which happened the next morning. We were all lined up. All the squadrons around were lined up along one side and in came the York with, with the Viceroy of India on. He got killed in Ireland, didn’t he?
MH: Lord Mountbatten.
JW: Lord Mountbatten. Yes. He took the salute from the, from the Japanese who gave him all the swords etcetera. And then we moved on. We, we were given the task of looking after 31 Squadron. I was now with 31 Squadron. Still on attachment [laughs] We, we were given Siam, Sumatra, land at Singapore but don’t take the salute there. And then go on to Java and Borneo. So I ended up in Java running, running B Flight aeroplanes. About four. Four aeroplanes and I had a crew of about two fitters and two, two engine men. And that’s when my release came through for Class B demob. So, the next morning I’d got my kit packed and an A Flight aircraft flew me back to Singapore. I I mounted a boat, got a boat from there to Southampton and was demobbed at Hednesford.
MH: And what date was that? Can you remember?
JW: 9th of the 3rd ’46.
MH: Right. Right. I understand, I don’t think your time in the RAF quite finished then, did it? Although you’d been demobbed.
JW: No. No. I I was discharged to complete my apprenticeship as a civvy which I did. I found I was then on a half a crown an hour for a fully fledged joiner. And I enquired of the firm I was working for, ‘What was my promotion? Would I get promotion?’ He said, ‘Well, when —' such and such dies —' he was about fifty at the time, I was about twenty two or four, something like that. ‘When he dies you or Johnny will get the job,’ because there was two of us. An Army lad that had done much the same as I had. So, I’d, I had notice from the Air Force that I could join for five years. Or four years or something of that nature and get my tapes back. So I wrote to the RAF. I’d done this prior to finishing my time. My civilian time. I wrote to the RAF and got a guarantee that I would be promoted to substantive corporal for the jobs that I’d done as an acting corporal and they gave me this. They said yes you will be but you’ll have to do three months on the job to prove that you’re capable.
MH: So, what squadron did you go back in to?
JW: So I went back to Swinderby for a four years, four year enlistment and that gave me a hundred and twenty five quid.
MH: And what, what did you do when you went back then? A similar sort of thing?
JW: Well, they had Wellington 20s by that time. Navigation. They were doing training navigation in Bomber Command. 17 OTU they were so they were Bomber Command again. And I was there until January ’51 in Swinderby. In 17 OTU.
MH: So what, what was your role then? What were you doing there?
JW: Again, I was what they called the piece of wind section which was the air and the, and the hydraulics. I ran a little section of of about three bodies. We did tyres as well. We did hydraulics. I did a little bit of work producing a better ground equipment than, than at that time we had because the RAF was very very short of decent ground equipment. So I’d mounted, because we were, we needed high pressure air on the Wellington 20s.
MH: Yeah. Was it different post-war than during the war? Was there a different atmosphere?
JW: It was gradually getting back to Wednesdays off you know. Wednesday afternoon was sports day and the, it just so happened that I met my wife at that time because the, the old diversion air field for Swinderby was Wigsley. And Wigsley was being used in the huts for people that had been in Germany for —
MH: Displaced persons.
JW: Displaced persons, and my wife was a displaced person.
MH: Right.
JW: That had recently come over and it just so happened I’d, we were doing circuits and bumps on the airfield and I’d sent one of my men over to do backstay checks on, once they’d landed you had to make sure the geometric lock was in the correct place before they could take off again and he said, ‘Hey, there’s a load of women over there.’ So off we went on our motorbikes.
MH: Right. So I understand at some point in time you worked on the Vulcan.
JW: Yes.
MH: Was that towards the end of your time?
JW: Well, [pause] where was I?
MH: You said you were at Swinderby until about 1950, weren’t you? Something like that.
JW: Yes. ’51. I’d done training courses to take Meteor 3s out to, out to Singapore. Unfortunately, the Makarios war took all our aircraft so although the Meteor 3s were on a boat loaded for Singapore we couldn’t get to them. So Singapore did their own lot and put the Meteor 3s in. But we were on posting anyway to Singapore as a unit and in January ’51 I landed in Singapore as a unit but because the Meteor 3s had been put in to service we were given another job in Singapore on Sunderlands which was another aircraft I didn’t know.
MH: No.
JW: And 205 and 220 Squadron were the squadrons but I was put in to the Maintenance Unit to bring up a beached aircraft. And it was at that point I got a wound on my left foot because putting, getting the thing up slip. They’re the last thing. You bring it up back to front and the last thing that happened was that the tow on one side towed before the other side, pulled the aircraft around with the ground equipment over my foot. That caused me problems that I still suffer today. We, we did Singapore, posted back to UK and to Stradishall. And it was from Stradishall that I I got my legs mended from the ‘51 thing in ’53. I I had them mended at, at an RAF hospital that near to Cambridge. I was at Stradishall in ’44 and was called to Melksham to go on to V bombers because my Fitter 1 training way back in my marriage days of ’48 was to Yatesbury to be a Fitter 1. Now, it had taken that time to sort out what the Fitter 1 really should be as an ASC and it was Melksham that we were sent to for coursing. And then on to AV Roes because again I passed out about fourth in the entry so we had the choice of aircraft. There was about fifty on the course but only the first ten went either on to Vulcans or Victors.
MH: So, so a massive —
JW: I chose Vulcans.
MH: Why did you choose Vulcans?
JW: Because it’s a better aircraft.
MH: Better in what way?
JW: Better in, even the Mark 1 which I had was a better aircraft. A much steadier aircraft for bombing.
MH: So you thought it was a better aircraft to maintain was it?
JW: A better aircraft all round. All the way round.
MH: Yeah.
JW: There was one advantage that the other aircraft had, the Victor had, was powered by by 220 volts rather than, rather than a 112 volt battery. That was the only advantage that I saw.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In that, but the Mark 2 Vulcan became a 220 anyway.
MH: So how long did you remain in the RAF for, Jim?
JW: Well, I remained on Vulcan 1s and XH477 was my allocated aircraft. I took that on board and flew with it on many occasions as ASC.
MH: Actually, in the plane.
JW: Oh yes.
MH: Yeah.
JW: Yes. Well, you’d, if the aircraft was on a given operation I could not fly with it. If the aircraft was on what they called a lone ranger or going to do a job like Butterworths which is the other side of Malaya or Australia or, for instance we did the George Ward’s thing in Rio de Janeiro and, and we did [pause] we inaugurated a president in Buenos Aires as well. So on those flight an ASC flew with the aircraft as the sixth seat.
MH: Just in case you needed to do maintenance while it was out there.
JW: Yes. Well, we usually took a servicing crew as well. These were Hermes aircraft for Buenos Aires. We’d take two Hermes with crews on board. Some for training for the actual inauguration because they, our second pilot was an AVM.
MH: Air Vice Marshall.
JW: Hmnn?
MH: Air Vice Marshall. AVM.
JW: Air Vice Marshall. A one-handed man that had lost his hand during the war. In Spitfire presumably. We were very [pause] we did those sorts of operations with ASC on the sixth seat so I I think I flew mostly most of the hours in my aircraft than any other crew. Eventually, I was given the chance of going on Mark 2s but I I sent my PV3 back to Air Ministry saying I was leaving the Air force in less than two years. So they called me to Air Ministry to query why and I explained that I I was really in a position where I had to find a civilian job that suited me. And I had already done twenty two years so wanted to be clear of the Air Force inside another three years. And I didn’t want to go on Mark 2s for that reason. So I was given the opportunity of handing my aircraft to what was my second dickie now which I did and going on SFTT work for [pause] for, for until I left the Air Force. Until I found a suitable job which I did with ICL.
MH: Where was that? In Stoke on Trent?
JW: In Stoke. And I found, I found the job with English Electric Leo Marconi which became a part of ICL. So I was initially at Kidsgrove in the electrical huts on the opposite site.
MH: Using a lot of skills that you learned in the RAF?
JW: Yeah. I was, well when the, when ICL was formed the name of the game was different because I I’d gone in using RAF skills and and various things but I was now offered a management job in ICL to look after the field problems of ICL. Forming and getting rid of various little units that had joined, made up ICL and making bigger units like the Arndale Centre at Manchester where I took eleven top floors in the Arndale Centre. Eleven to twenty two.
MH: Right.
JW: Without lifts initially.
MH: I can imagine. I think that you’ve told me an absolutely fascinating story of a lad from Burton who was going to be a carpenter. Doesn’t seem to ever have been much of a carpenter because he spent most of his time in the RAF but I suppose as you say you got a trade but —
JW: Yeah. Well, my, my trade fitted me up fine for ICL work.
MH: Yeah.
JW: In the field.
MH: So is there anything else from your RAF time you want to tell me about? Have we covered most of —
JW: I left in 1966. October. And I had a good, a good twenty two years with, with ICL.
MH: Afterwards —
JW: And manage with three pensions.
MH: Yeah.
JW: With them as well as an RAF pension.
MH: Right. That, that’s great. I’ve got no questions to ask. I said I’ll be writing some notes down but you did say that you could talk and you’ve just, you’ve told me all I want —
JW: Well, I’ve had to refer to this because I can’t remember it.
MH: No.
JW: I highlighted all the areas that were Bomber Command.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. No that’s great. Jim, can I thank you for giving your time? You’ve talked for about an hour and a half then. That’s brilliant.
JW: Well, I’m afraid that’s twenty two years.
MH: You’ve done very well to keep it —
JW: Of RAF.
MH: Yeah. So, so thank you very much. Thank you for all your service and thank you for your time today. The time is 12.48. I’m going to turn the recorder off in a second. I just need you to sign a form and then you two guys —
JW: Right.
MH: Can go and get dinner because I suppose you’re hungry. So thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for, for letting me speak to you today.
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Interview with Jim Wildes
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Martyn Horndern
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-08-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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AWildesJE180829, PWildesJE1801
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01:33:21 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
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Jim was born in July 1923 in Burton on Trent and was the eldest of six children. His father served in the First World War. When Jim left school aged 14, he joined the Boys Brigade which had a Royal Air Force section and he had the chance to fly in a Tiger Moth. He trained to be an apprentice joiner and carpenter and worked with his grandfather who was a master joiner. He then joined Sharp Bros & Knight, timber and joinery manufacturers. When he was about 17, the Boys Brigade sent him to RAF Cardington for an air crew interview, which he failed due to ear problems. He then took the exam and was recommended to be a voluntary reserve.
When Jim was about 18, he was called up to go to RAF Halton for aircraft training, after which he was sent for further training at RAF Abingdon Operational Training Unit on Hampden and Witney aircraft. He was then sent back to RAF Halton to do a fitter course and then posted to 23 Operational Training Unit at RAF Pershore working on Wellingtons. After training Jim became a leading aircraftman. In September 1943 Jim was posted to 206 Squadron on the Wirral for about two weeks. The outfit totalled about 1,000 people from the Air Force, Army and Navy. His unit was then sent to the Liverpool docks to join the troop ship Laconia heading for Bangor and then on to Azores where 8206 Maintenance Unit built an Air Force station and runway. They stayed in tents with eight people for up to a year. Over Christmas Jim was in a Portuguese hospital for about three days with a broken finger. The unit went to Casablanca then to Cornwall just before D-Day. He was put on night shift at RAF St Mawgan with 206 Squadron working on Liberators. Following a trip to Scotland they were posted at Dundee with an air salvaging and servicing unit. Here he was made acting corporal and worked with 31 Dakota Squadron. When the war ended, he was flown to Singapore, got a boat to Southampton and was discharged to complete his apprenticeship as a joiner. Jim re-joined the Air Force and went back to RAF Swinderby for four years working on Wellingtons. There he met his future wife. In 1951 the unit went to Singapore to work on Sunderlands before being posted back home. Jim left in 1966 and worked for AV Roe until joining ICL in a management job.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Wirral
Scotland
Scotland--Dundee
Azores
North Africa
Morocco
Morocco--Casablanca
Singapore
England--Lancashire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1943-09
1943-12
1966
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
10 OTU
206 Squadron
23 OTU
31 Squadron
B-17
B-24
C-47
ground personnel
Hampden
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Cardington
RAF Halton
RAF Pershore
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Swinderby
Sunderland
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Whitley
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/653/8924/AWallaceDS161015.1.mp3
3f71414cf74d8196e6a052c10dad7a69
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/653/8924/PWallaceDS1610.1.2.jpg
9c601e37e80a78b86f07d42a8d3e0849
Dublin Core
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Title
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Wallace, Donald
Reverand Donald Stewart Wallace Ld'H
D S Wallace
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Group Captian, Reverand Donald Stewart Wallace Ld'H (b. 1925, 409278 Royal Navy, 501635 Royal Air Force) and four photographs. He served in the Royal Navy 1942 - 1945 before joining the RAF post war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald S Wallace and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Wallace, DS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Saturday the 15th of October 2017 and we’re in Watford with Group Captain Donald Wallace and he’s going to —
DW: [unclear]
CB: I’m starting the introduction again because I got the date wrong. So it’s the 15th of October 2016 and we’re with the Reverend Group Captain Donald Wallace to talk about his times. Life and times. So what was the earliest thing you remember?
DW: The earliest thing I remember — I should say I was born on the 5th of September 1925 in Edinburgh. Elsie Inglis Hospital. And I took my children there to see where their dad emerged and they’d taken the hospital away. Just in case [laughs] But I said to them when it was here there were little trees with railings around to protect them from the sheep that roamed the lakeside. And they’ve all gone I’m afraid. And I was a laughing stock because they gently pointed out to me that we were standing underneath these trees. My father was a supervisor of transport for Edinburgh tramways and I went to school. And the top of the hill outside our house, I can’t remember its name but — but the war, we were involved in the war when it came right from the very beginning because we boys, I was fourteen I think when I was born, er war started. We began to help with our tin helmets on as messengers during air raids. And remember, Edinburgh I think was one of the first places to be raided during the war. And we were ambulance runners taking messages. We wore these tin helmets so it was an early beginning to my association with the clothing of a wartime Britain. I found out and of course we boys wanted nothing else as we grew up but to get face to face with Hitler and his gang. And there was nothing courageous or brave about this I don’t think because boys of our age were — you couldn’t maim or kill any boy of my age. We were indestructible. And I think probably boys are still at that age. We wanted to get our hands on Hitler and unfortunately I found that both the air force and the army coddled you until you were eighteen. You weren’t allowed to get in to any danger. But I did find that if you could pass officer selection you could get away at seventeen and you went off to sea virtually straight away and you learned your trade as a — in the Nelsonian tradition. And I managed to elude my parents by going along and passed as a potential officer cadet and was accepted. I had to wait a few months before which annoyed me as I recall but eventually I got the papers to, transport form to take me down to [pause] I think it was Harwich to start my life in the navy. I spent an extra two weeks. I had a call that was two weeks training before you went off and I had been promoted, as it were, to a class leader while I was there. And I was kept on to be the class leader of the next sixty recruits. They came in batches of sixty. And so I practiced walking with a seaman like roll as I had been in the navy two weeks before these youngsters arrived. Eventually however I got my calling for my first ship which was a Hotspur. A destroyer. HO1. And I can remember with my hammock, well which is a fairly bulky item you’ve got to carry ‘cause it’s your mattress and I still have that mattress. It’s long thin stuff. Carrying that or trying to do so with my kitbag and this hammock roll on a London underground escalator. And I was hovering at the top wondering if I’ll hit one thing going down. It might not be there when I got to the bottom. And somebody saw my plight and said, ‘I’ll carry that.’ So off we went down the escalator and I collected my bag and hammock and carried on to the station. So this, the hammock of course in those days was very important to the navy because it acted as your first defence if your ship was holed. All the hammocks were always stored together and along with bolts of timber and that was ready to patch the hole in the ship. Roughly. So you didn’t have your hammock until you collected it to go to sleep after you got up. It wasn’t just to have a nice quiet feet up. It was in the Fo’c’sle along with the rest. Ready to fill a hole up in the ships side if it suffered an attack. So, however, when I got to the point of sleeping there were no hammock billets, that slinging hooks — so I had to sleep on the deck. And I had to sleep under this long table which served as the mess table. Because you had, I think it was four messes. It was Fo’c’sle split into four quarters and I found I had to lie underneath this. Wearing goon skins mind you. Those are, those are waterproof garments with quilted interior that you wore all the time at sea. Nobody was allowed to take their clothes off. You had to keep [pause] and you had sea boots were leather and very heavy. So if you went overboard I should think the sea boots acted as a lead and you’d probably go down feet first. But I never tried that. This was an uncomfortable position I found because trying to sleep under this table when you’re on a destroyer at sea you find that there’s nothing stable and with the movement of the ship even the break in the Fo’c’sle which is the little bit you walk over to get into the next bit of the ship — the sea used to come over and some water was always where you were living. Sleeping. And that water I found was washing over me underneath the lockers on which people sat and kept their clothes from coming back over. So I look back. I did sleep in these conditions and until I got to the end of this first convoy to America. And it’s only some years ago I realised that all this discomfort was part of the testing time that I was being put to. And everybody on board was aware of my reason for being on the ship. From the captain down. I was the only one that didn’t seem to know. Because as I said I looked back a few years back and suddenly a light dawned. Why was it when we got to America with this convoy and on the way back I found that I had a slinging billet? That my hammock was up there and I could have a place to go to. Doss down and sleep and so on and so it dawned on me that all that first start up was a set up. For instance I was told, I was in the wheelhouse because our job was to get involved in every bit of the ship’s activities so that we had a complete picture, hands on, of all the jobs that there were to keep a ship at sea. And I got, if you just hang on a minute. So it had all been a set up and I was the one chap on board who didn’t realise why. And everybody from, as I said the captain to the youngest, well I was the youngest on the ship, knew what it was about. We got to America as I said and they mysteriously, I realise now that a slinging billet was found for me and I didn’t have to sleep on the deck on the way back. I was told that I had been successful. Ticked all the boxes. When I appeared as part of the officer course training there was four captains interviewing me and they said, ‘You’ve passed successfully. But we found your mathematics were not good enough.’ And I could have told them that because I was never any good at mathematics. And they said they were going to send me to a shore establishment for six months where I would get special coaching in mathematics. And I demurred. I said, ‘Look. I joined the navy to fight in a war. I did not join the navy to learn mathematics. And if the price of a commission is having to learn mathematics I don’t want any more of it.’ There was a bit of a [pause] eventually they agreed with me. My refusal to go off for six months. And I went, I was asked what branch of the navy. And one of the captains said, you should, ‘ASDICs is what you should go for. It’s the most secret but most vital system that we have and the Germans know nothing about.’ And you were never allowed to wear any badges which showed what you were in case you were caught by the Germans or be sunk or any. You would be tortured to get the information about the system and so of course you were incognito in that respect. I was trained at Rothesay where, I can’t remember for how long but it was a surprisingly short course because we were expected to absorb the basics and then learn what was required later on. At sea. So I can’t remember. It was just a few weeks there and I got my call to join HMS Essington which was a captain class frigate. And as you probably know that lies between — a frigate is smaller than a destroyer as it were. It’s the next one down. And as I say it was called the HMS Essington. And strangely I found only recently it was one of the few ships that served in every theatre of British naval warfare. And actually that was when I was on her. Those two years. They call it battle honours. That she’d, the ship earned battle honours in every theatre of British naval warfare. Well I think had I, had that been in the army we would have had a medal for each bit. But the navy are very sparse in dishing out medals. We got the Atlantic Star. Well I had it already actually. And all I got from all those activities was a bar running across the top of the Atlantic Star. I think it says D-day or something like that on it. Indeed I’ve only recently been down to the French embassy where I received somewhat belatedly as it were the Legion d’honneur. Which was rather fun. In fact only a few months before that I’d experienced the same thing because the Russian Embassy invited me to go down there where I received the Ushakov medal which was the eqivalent, as I understood of the French Legion d’honneur. The Ushakov. That was in, apparently appreciation of our protecting the ships that took much needed supplies during the Russian convoys and on arctic patrol up there. It’s on file. But it’s this convoy we’re talking about.
CB: Yes.
DW: I hadn’t, I’m still under the [pause] no. Have I joined ASDIC’s?
CB: Yes.
DW: So I was.
CB: We’re on ASDIC.
DW: I was operating ASDIC’s on the first ship. Essington.
CB: Yes.
DW: Yes [pause] on the way back from that first convoy laden with a huge bunch of bananas which were priceless items in Britain then and worth their weight in gold. I had thought what should I take home for my mother and father. And a bunch of bananas which were rather cumbersome but were going to be very welcome. So on the way back we had collected a film to be shown on board on the way back. Sixteen millimetre. And I think I’m going to forget the name of it at the moment but [pause] No. It’s not coming back. Can you?
CB: So we’re on the way back.
DW: We’re on the way back and we went patches. We watched the film that we’d been given. A sixteen millimetre edition of Casablanca which hadn’t — a pre-release copy of the film and the crew enjoyed it. And some of them got together and wrote a long letter to the film people complaining at the wrong ending. And that Paul Henreid should have been put on that aeroplane and left Humphrey Bogart on the ground. We never heard any reply from that I understand. But quite interestingly, only relatively recently I found there were five different endings ready for that film and they had decided on this particular one. So the crew of HMS Essington weren’t the only ones pondering how to finish up that iconic film. Casablanca. So where am I?
CB: You’re on the way back on the convoy.
DW: Yeah. Yeah. Well I think we had better just get back [laughs]
CB: Yes. So you’re on ASDIC.
DW: This is, is this my last fight.
CB: This is, this is coming back with ASDIC. So you’re trained on ASDIC.
Other: Essington.
DW: Oh yes.
CB: Essington.
Other: Essington.
DW: And we, after that convoy I found that we were spending a lot of time in The Channel, on patrol. E boat alley it was called at that stage. And we were in line abreast at one stage. Sweeping as they called it. Checking out for submarines when I heard the unmistakable whine of a torpedo. There’s no —nothing like it. You know exactly what it is. And because I was on the set there up on the bridge, on a little cabin that’s patched on to the Bridge with access from the Bridge little cabin that’s patched on to the Bridge with access from the Bridge through portholes for the officer on watch to look down and see what’s going on. I heard it. And I realised from its course and speed and bearing that we had only a few seconds left in this world. Because when a torpedo hits the Fo’c’sle of a frigate it doesn’t just pass right through it. It blows up A and B gun magazines. So, all the ammunition. And it’s one hell of a bang. And it takes the Fo’c’sle off and puts it slap against the funnel casing so anybody in that area is a goner. Waiting for seconds. And miraculously it went on. And we heard it gradually continuing. And as I said there were six ships in line abreast and Blackwood was slightly ahead. And the next minute there was this dreadful explosion they spoke about and poor old Blackwood had lost its forward part. I looked up and I could see dangling crew. Feet had caught on the rope obviously below the Crow’s Nest. The mast head look out on the deck because it wasn’t moving at all. And I thought to myself, that was my action station on my previous ship and there but for the grace of God. It could have been me. And I look out a little anecdote from my previous ship while I was learning the trade as it were. We had one of the merchantmen had been sunk and it was dark. And as dark as you can get the Atlantic to be. And we peeled off full steam ahead as it were. And when you’re going as fast as you can your funnel casing, I found, glows red. And there were sparks coming out from the top and I was in the masthead look out position in this little [pause] almost like a dustbin. You’re there and the communication is a tube with a lid and I thought just the time for a quick fag. I did smoke and one of the many things I learned quickly in the navy. And I had just let out this tiny glow of a cigarette with the funnel casing glowing red hot. Sparks coming out everywhere. And there was a fearful roar from the deck. This was the gunnery officer, ‘Get that fag out Wallace and see me afterwards.’ And I thought why? This tiny glow. But I knew this was, ultimately I realised that this was all a part of [ pause] however, that I remember that with humour now. The, the — am I still on? Where am I?
CB: So we’re on Essington. We’re on Essington.
DW: Oh Essington. And we’re on The Channel. In The Channel.
CB: In The Channel.
DW: Yes. And the Blackwood had been sunk.
CB: Yeah.
DW: And I went up to the [pause] this new Arboretum which is going to be used as a war.
CB: Alrewas.
DW: I was up there recently and I found that there was a special little memorial and that my six ships were called the forgotten frigates. And there I stood and went down. I got to Blackwood. And I experienced quite a wave of emotion. When I realised that it should have been Blackwood standing there looking at my [pause] — that was war. The chances were always there. You didn’t live like that. You didn’t worry about that. I never —
CB: Would you say that it’s a feeling of guilt that it didn’t get you?
DW: I, no. I don’t. There was no guilt involved. It was [pause]I felt that it was perhaps unfair that we should have been chosen to continue. And Blackwood —
CB: You survived. Yes.
DW: Going back to Blackwood though if I can for a minute. We thought a lot of lives lost. Because there she was. Three quarters, two thirds of a ship. Still floating. And we we wanted to get on a tow. But the sea was relatively calm but the submarine that had sunk us was still lurking about. Nobody wanted to stop for that reason. The other four were circling around the two of us. As we were the nearest ship we were picking up the survivors but they kept jumping. They were all jumping in to the water from the stern. And we were calling and shouting, ‘Stay on board.’ She was floating you see and we could have — but they’d all been playing housey in the tiller flat, which is a large blank area at the back. And you can imagine. Well, housey I should explain is a tombola sort of thing. Game. And they were all running out and jumping straight in to the water which was a ruddy nuisance to us because instead of all collecting from the ship. Well we rescued, got them on board us and got the Blackwood in tow and headed for the first port. Because in those days you could stitch. And there were other instances of the two ends of the ships, ‘cause they were the first of the ships that were not rivets. Riveted. And they just welded the bits together. However, sadly she began to flounder and eventually we had to cut her adrift and she went down. That was the end of Blackwood. The next [pause] it’s difficult remembering these things at this age. Oh yes. Mentioned Lancasters. We were in The Channel and a Sunderland, I believe it was a Sunderland but it could have been a Catalina. Anyway —
CB: A flying boat.
DW: Flew over us and flashed us that we’d dropped a sea marker on where a submarine had crash dived. A sea marker I should explain is — it’s a dye that once it’s on the sea it spreads out and it’s a mad vivid green over the area and it was heading for Guernsey. And we were peeled off by our group leader and the two of us went charging back to where the sub had crash dived. I should explain that at sea you could do short in between ship communication safely on this. I don’t understand the technology but you could speak to each other without it spreading beyond, as it were, the immediate area of your ships. And we had codenames. And our leader was Floor Cloth. That’s fine. Our leader was Beezum and we were Floor Cloth. And we got to, we got to this sea marker and absolutely right on time the eleven inch guns on Guernsey opened up. And they must have got the exact position from the sub before it crash dived because I was on the starboard lookout position just off the bridge when bang, we were straddled both sides. And it was so close that I got soaked from the shell that fell on my right hand side. Well, our skipper, he, he’d never waited for anybody’s instruction when danger waited. ‘Hard to capt, hard to port, full speed ahead.’ And we zigzagged and we were belting away as fast as we could out of this range of these guns when we heard, ‘Floor cloth. Floor Cloth. This is Beezum. I think it’s time we got out of here.’ He hadn’t noticed he was entirely alone down there. We were miles away. That was both amusing and as I said quite serious. But that that was one of the occasions when [pause] but as far as ships — we had a policy stay your distance from us. Any aeroplane that comes gets shot at. And quite amusingly I was at a dinner. As I think I was a speaker. When the chairman, he said, and he referred to me, ‘And I was one of these bloody pilots you shot at.’ [laughs] This was at the dinner. Thank goodness we can laugh now at things that went on. For instance, on a Russian convoy we were all listening avidly as we all did, to the “Man in Black.” These were stories told. Usually mystery and horror. And this is your story of terror. “The Man in Black.” So there we are listening to this and as I recall the mysterious severed hand was crawling up the side of the bedclothes and had just reached the top of the bed and was going towards the sleeping man’s head when action stations sounded. Well nobody on the ship were thinking about dying of fear. We were all just absolutely furious that this intrusion. We never did find out what happened after that. So I’m still on where?
CB: Well, if we go back to The Channel.
DW: Back to The Channel.
CB: You’ve just got shelled from Guernsey.
DW: Oh yes.
CB: What about the submarine?
DW: Yes.
CB: Where was that?
DW: Well we high tailed off and as far as that is concerned that was the end of that episode. We learned. You can’t, with three inch guns as our main armoury you might as well spat over the side as try to retaliate.
CB: Yeah.
DW: When it’s got its eleven inch guns that’s aiming for you. Right.
CB: So thinking of ASDIC.
DW: Pardon?
CB: So with ASDIC — what were you doing with ASDIC yourself.
DW: ASDIC.
CB: No. What were you doing with the ASDIC?
DW: We — ASDIC’s I should explain are both — the Germans had the listening devices that could get sound but we sent an echo out and got it back and you could work out from the time taken by the echo.
CB: Yeah.
DW: The course and speed of whatever was ahead. Hearing you could [pause] fish a shoal of fish will give you a faint positive echo.
CB: Yeah.
DW: And you learned to read what it is. As opposed to the one thing you’re concerned about is a submarine. And also the bottom. If there’s like if you’re in an area where there might be rocks sticking up from the bottom you have, by your experience, you could understand, deduce what, what because it can be and that was the point. Submarines crash dived and lay still and nobody would, no noise because that would give their position away. So you only had your ASDIC’s to probe and try and find the submarine that had just sunk one of your —
CB: Just to clarify that ASDIC is Anti Submarine Direction Indicator.
DW: That’s right.
CB: And what rank were you at that time?
DW: Oh I was still what I had chosen to be. An able seaman. Yeah. And I remained that to the end of the war. And I look back and realise that was probably the best preparation I ever had for life afterwards. Because eventually the war, the war finished and I yes, yes, eventually the war finished but before it did I began to get, I’ve no idea why. I think I, if I try to find out why but I think it might go back to seeing a chaplain and I, very few of them I saw. And I don’t want to denigrate those that serve but it just happened with me. This chaplain came on board and headed straight to the ward room and I recall we never saw him. And that, that I think was the spur. I’ve no, I only search my own memory to find out why because my father was, A) my father had a whole line of Black Watch. Now all the family were Black Watch. My young brothers were commissioned in the Black Watch. And I was the black sheep. I joined the navy. I said. You know why? But here I was. My father was so surprised that I was talking about taking holy orders as it were. However, I determined on this. Offered myself to the Church of Scotland. And in the light of my break in education and the fact it might be service that were, another chap who was in the same position called Farquhar Lyall who had been a colonel in the army. He and I both were ex-St Andrews. Started off for four years course at St Andrews University and at the end of which we were graduated, as it were, MAPD. But the penalty and I think it never would have been, and perhaps I should have it now — the agreement was they would graduate but not get the labels of the degree. So this would not happen today and we were, when I look back it was a very, what’s the word [pause] unfair, as it were, imposition. But we didn’t mind and Farquhar Lyall and I rose to be a senior — he was a senior army chaplain and I was a senior Scottish chaplain. So where am I?
CB: Well we’re just talking about the fact that the the origin of your — I’m going to stop. I’ve got to stop because I’m clearing my throat.
DW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Right.
Other: Would you like some water?
CB: Yes. Thank you. What we’re talking about is I just want to go back a bit more, thank you, into the war because I think this is a really really significant point. Your perception of the chaplain only going to the wardroom.
DW: Well, yeah, I weren’t — yes.
CB: It’s how it worked.
DW: Yeah.
CB: But how did the crew feel about that?
DW: I I I’d been a normal Scottish boy. We went to church and Sunday School each day er each Sunday and were involved in the activities of our church. It was part of life. And we never thought that we were different from anybody else. It was. And our parents. So the church and living and activities like the Sunday School and the outings and so on. And then I was in the Cubs and the Rovers. All part of growing up in the church. So it was church centred. And our minister was a figure that was revered and was our leader as it were, in the community. And indeed it was the minister of my church to whom I discussed my idea of offering my — that I went to so I think it was, looking back that this chap I thought he would go to the crews quarters because they’re the people that would appreciate his visit and so on. That’s [pause] I’m trying to find a reason. A raison d’être as it were for my being a clergyman. And I’ve, I’ve tried and I think it was at that point. Now, he may have had some specific reason for going up to the wardroom. I’ve no idea.
CB: No.
DW: But that, as I search my memory was the critical point which made me think about offering myself to the church and going back to the navy as a chaplain.
CB: Yes.
DW: That was the bit.
CB: Right. Would you say you were shocked by his apparent behaviour?
DW: I would not say that was that. Shock is nothing. But my expectation was, and my, what I felt was that he should be heading for the crew’s quarters because they would need him and appreciate his presence. Rather than going to have a gin and tonic in the wardroom.
CB: Which is the officer’s mess.
DW: Yes. So and after this, so now that that is on looking back that was the bit that made think of going back in a ship which meant training and so on. I surprised my parents and many of my friends that I [pause] So —
CB: But would you say that during your times in these ships first the destroyer and then the frigate. That as you got to know what everybody was doing that your faith became important to you again.
DW: I don’t think so. Looking back. Alistair Campbell, a great friend of mine happened to come from Edinburgh and so on and we, we were together on Essington. And his, I think his father was in charge of the lighthouses and so on in Britain — in Scotland at the time. But Alistair and I were good friends and we did things together when we got ashore. We’d go to church. Now I, our reason for going to church was first of all it seemed a natural thing and I think right down it was something we needed. To retain contact with those who appreciated with what Christ had done for us and the risks he’d run and so on. But secondly and not too surely. It wouldn’t be firstly was when you went to church in your sailor’s uniform there were girls there with their parents. And there was possible invitations back for a meal and so on. So as I say they talk about rice Christians and I think probably Alistair and I were, were rice Christians and in America for instance we had wonderful hospitality and in subsequent times I had the same thing because there had been notices posted up when you got to Newfoundland I remember. Saying so and so and so and so invites so and so for a weekend and we met this wonderful hospitality which was so welcome to us in those days. So as I said, I’m back. I embarked on my time at St Andrews.
CB: Was this under the auspices, was this under the auspices of the navy?
DW: No. It was under the auspices of the Church of Scotland. Forces chaplain.
CB: Chaplaincy.
DW: Yes. The thing I’ve got — I was heading for the navy you see. When I was approaching the end of my time at St Andrew’s and I’d thoroughly enjoyed it. I’d been the convener of publicity for the all important charity’s weeks and so on. And I was the Cape Kennedy Club was a kind of, ran a seniority system at our time in St Andrews. I think I’m the oldest life member of the Cape Kennedy Club of St Andrews. Still. Those days — I boxed for [pause] my father encouraged us all to box and I boxed with one or two amateur, in between ships contests and then I, I got involved and boxed again ashore while I was at, while I was training. And I began to get a bit ancient for the boxing. You know, when you’re boxing, the longer it takes, it takes you longer and longer to get over a bruise. And tempers [unclear], there’s no escaping. I realised that my time actually participating was drawing to a close so I became a qualified time keeper. And then a qualified judge and then ultimately I qualified as a referee. And so on. And eventually I became the [pause] what’s the word for the three services?
CB: Joint service.
CB: Yes. The —
Other: Combined.
CB: Combined services.
DW: For the combined services, but as a referee. And that was just a sort of a natural progression from not being able to participate. You did the fine tuning. These were all activities which were taking place parallel with my other great activity was, while I was in Aden in 1950 with the Royal Air Force. I met one of Cousteau’s team and Cousteau had just produced the iconic valve allowing you to breathe underwater. And I tried this. We only had one in Aden. It was the chap who owned a ship that took passengers and freight and things back and forwards between Somalia and Aden. He thought this was a good idea because in those days ships had no — there was nowhere to dock alongside and the only way to get a ship repaired was to pull her up on to the beach. The huge gangs of neighbours would pull and you would beach it. Of course, with a very small tide you know. You’re talking inches rather than feet and he thought a good idea. I’ll get one of these and have a look at the hull without having to leave the ship. And I borrowed this and we got it filled with air from a static I think there was about seven or eight inches long. Compressed air cylinders that were used by the aeroplane people. I managed to acquire, shall I call it, one of these four or five large bottles and subsequently I was able to have it recharged and we could fill this air bottle from the tubes. And I remember the system where you had to go from the lowest to the highest I think it was. It was so as to ensure you got the maximum value of compressed air from each cylinder. Anyway that was me started and I went out with this thing on my back. Surprisingly heavy. I swam out and down I went and I was breathing. And I thought this is just marvellous. And I was probing around the shallow waters off the little bay I was at in Aden. And ultimately I began to find that it was harder to breathe and I was finding it desperately, you know, so I realised I must be running out of air. So I began to swim somewhat frantically towards the shore and only to realise I was swimming away from it ‘cause you’ve no [laughs] And I, there was only one resource. And I pushed myself. I never thought of breaking surface because this weight on me. Strangely enough, I got to the surface and found that the cylinder by this time, I was so exhausted it offered slight buoyancy. So, on my back, I back paddled away back to the shore. I did not even have a snorkel. Now you see this is really, really early.
CB: Yes.
DW: As sub aqua. So I learned my trade right at the beginning there. And subsequently I said in parallel with the boxing, I introduced and encouraged the sub aqua in the air force and ultimately was the head of sub aqua activity. Which included the adventure training and so on to encourage people to join the services.
CB: Right.
DW: You see.
CB: So we’ve come to the end of the war. You’ve been to St Andrew’s. You’ve qualified
DW: Oh yes. Right.
CB: So how did you not go on with the navy?
DW: Well I was nearing the end and I had, it was two, I can’t remember if it was two or three officers or chaplains or officer chaplains came to visit me at the university and said they understood that I was going to — that I was training as a chaplain and was [pause] and but they said we wanted you to, we wondered if you would consider coming into the air force. And I said, ‘No. No. No. No. I’m going back to the navy.’ They said, But your young brother is training at this minute as a pilot in Rhodesia,’ where they did the training in those days for the good weather. They said, ‘Would it not be a good thing if you were in the same service as your brother?’ And I remember saying, ‘Oh. Well. Yeah. Well I’ll give it a whirl.’ And I found myself joining the air force. And I had absolutely no connection with the air force. When I [pause] what changed my uniform I remember it was in the gents toilet in London station. Into this RAF colour. I emerged and headed for RAF Halton. Which I was told was my, I had to go there for my first and my RAF career as it were started there. There was nobody to meet. Oh yes eventually the chaplain of Halton who — there was supposed to be a senior and a junior chaplain. I was going to be the junior chaplain to this chap. He arrived and in I got through the guardroom because I had no identification or anything like this you see. And in we went and I was in the air force. And I — and this chap went off the next day, said ‘Well I’m going to have some leave.’ He was supposed to be instructing me but he pushed off and I was left with this. With something like thirty lectures to deliver each week to the recruits coming through. On lifestyle and so on including more rough chaplaincy talks. Plus that I found at the hospital to minister to Halton. And my only means of transport was this ancient RAF bicycle that I’d acquired in some way and I was told I had to parade to 8 o’clock in the morning or something. So from the mess which was the old Rothschild house, I’m going up the hill and it was beginning to spitter with rain. The chain kept coming of this blooming old bicycle. And I had to try and — my hands were getting oilier and oilier and I was trying to get the chain back on this bike. But I finally got up to the top and there were about a thousand men, you see, parading. An officer came marching towards me and I didn’t realise that the parade was handed over to me you see. So, I thought, hang on, the reason I was so unprepared was they heard that I had been in the navy so I didn’t, I got no officer training. I did not get the few months preparation that the doctors and dentists and schoolies and so on got. I was making this transition totally unprepared. So much so that I thought oh well here it goes. So having this officer march off and left me with this. And I thought, right, well here goes and I upped my arm, right arm, grabbed my hat with the right arc. Left arm up. Put my hat underneath my left arm and I prepared to continue with a few words and then a short service. When I looked around I thought nobody else was taking their hats off. I realised that they didn’t take their hats off in this new service. So I had to discreetly put my hat back on again and carry on with the service. And while the chap who used to be my batman used to arrive in his car I — the only transport I had was this old bike. Well that was a happy, or unhappy beginning to life in the Royal Air Force. And I subsequently raised the, they seemed to like me and I think, looking back, probably I was welcomed by them because I had naval ribbons. In the air force — medals. In the air force the only people who really are exposed to, if you like, danger or whatever, are the pilots and crews. Whereas the vast number are all on the ground and don’t get exposed to the enemy as it were. I think looking back probably the fact that I was wearing medals which showed that I had been involved as it were put me on a — and I was able to get things when I wanted something for the airmen or whatever it was. I got access to highest.
CB: Respect.
DW: Yes. And it really quite, it really was, looking back my navy time prepared me for my chaplaincy service. A) because nobody could come with a hard luck story to me because I could match anything he was going to come up with. But equally it made me probably empathetic to those who really needed help and perhaps even more than I could probably find a situation in the married quarters or something. Or whatever. I might be ahead of it and able to [pause] because you can’t have a good ship as it were if you’ve got somebody’s wife having it off with a chap two doors down. These are, these are you are not a little chap straight from the college. You’re someone who’s seen life. And so I was able to both enjoy and I think be of some value to the service that I had joined. Incidentally my brother, young brother, Albert was so determined that when he had to be, join up, he and my brother, his twin, were commissioned in the Black Watch but Albert was so determined to fly that he rejoined. Relinquished his rank when he had finished his, what was over. He relinquished his rank because the only way you could get to fly was start off as an airman and do your recruit. So there was a highland Black Watch officer doing his square bashing again under an RAF corporal. But that was my brother. Determined. And by this time he had, he flew all kinds of aeroplanes. And I flew with him in, for instance, a Vulcan that he, and he was one of those who, when at Waddington had to sit there knowing that if the balloon went up he had to get straight in to the cockpit and fly and that because there would be no where to come back to.
CB: Never return. Right.
DW: I think. And these are the guys that I could relate to. And there’s my own young brother. And I’ve flown with him in [pause] what’s that comfortable place to be a visitor or was it a guest crew because you sat right down the bottom in this little cubby hole with the side here and the inside of this plane was cold. Freezing literally. And up the top of the ladder was my brother, navigator. Above me. So it was a fairly lonely place there. Damned uncomfortable. And Albert — seven hours we flew as I recall. And he said, ‘I’m going to fly up over our house.’ So we were flying up Scotland and he flew over Arthur’s Seat and our house was on the slopes of the hill and I thought I’m not interested. Just get me back somewhere warm. But when you’re sitting for seven hours doing nothing whereas these guys are doing this all the time. But eventually he, he moved on to the aeroplane, I forget it’s name now. Similar. But it was the one that refuelled.
CB: The Victor.
DW: The Victor. And the Victor was a great place to be the passenger. Because right up the top of the little ladder there was navigator pilot and there was a seat in the middle that was slightly raised above the others and you had this fantastic view in front. So thumbs up for the Victor. So I’d done and I’d flown in Vulcan and a Victor. And a Victor was very comfortable for, for a — I flew in all sorts of aeroplanes. Particularly because my refereeing. I found out the PE officer at headquarters in Cyprus for instance had, was sick or had some lung problem. And I found I was the only boxing referee in the Mediterranean so I’ve been, I flew in all sorts of aeroplanes to get to referee a boxing match in Gibraltar or Malta and at the same time I’m in charge of the sub aqua activities there. For instance inspecting the pipelines that went, that had been put in to refuel aeroplanes. And a tanker would offload their fuel and it would pump ashore. Well it was vital that these, there were no leaks and of course it was relatively shallow and there was always, the worry was that they’d move and you’d get a slight leak.
CB: We’ll just stop for a mo.
DW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So you had a wide variety of activities but your first posting was Halton where you had no proper induction. How many postings did you have? Tours did you have in the RAF?
DW: Well in the first I was posted to Number 1 School of Recruit Training. After this few weeks at Halton. Because the boss chaplain visited and found out that I was in there on my own. And he said, ‘Where’s your — ’ I said, ‘He’s on leave sir.’ ‘Is he?’ So this guy was back and he said, ‘It’s very obviously you don’t need a second chaplain here. Having Wallace here, inexperienced a novice, running this on his own. You can’ and I went off. I was posted to Innsworth where I got friendly with a fellow. Jack. Oh I’ll remember his name in a minute. And he asked me to be his best man at his wedding. I said it’s a bit hard. A bit difficult because — no. I was to marry him but it was the bride was going to be married in her, was going to be married in the village church and in, of course the padre, the minister, the vicar so he said well I was in charge of the guard of honour. And so much against the rules as I thought, I organised, we organised the ceremonial swords that you had to have and in full dress uniform. And there I arrived with a dog collar on. But with the sword alongside of me and leaning there was eight of us formed the guard. The next day after the wedding I had a call. The commander in chief would appreciate it if you pay him a visit this morning. I thought oh God I’m going to get a rocket for being armed. And I started along the corridor and the door flew open, ‘Oh there you are. Come on in and have a coffee you see. Right. So I sat down, drinking coffee and he said, he said, ‘I wanted to talk to you about yesterday.’ He said, ‘Do you know that was the best blooming guard of honour I’ve ever seen?’ [laughs] And I get this chap and I in fact Peter Horsley. Air Chief Marshall Peter. He’s up there. He and I were great friends. He’s dead now sadly. And its things like this that I’ve got on awfully well and I’m not talking about crawling to get to know them. I think my naval experience was appreciated. And the fact that I could talk to men from my own experience and to officer’s with theirs so I feel I was probably was pushed in the right direction when I was asked which service I was going to go in to. Hence I’m RAF and, ex now of course. Very proud of my — not proud. Yes. Why not be proud.
CB: Why not? Why not? Yes.
DW: An airman as well as a navy.
CB: A fish head. Yeah.
DW: Yes. Is that enough?
CB: Yes. We’ll stop there.
DW: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re restarting now after a bite. And we’re going to talk about the postings that Donald had.
DW: As I said, I was a relatively short time at Halton. Busy and enjoyable. But I found that myself posted to 6 flight training school. Number 1 school of recruit training which was RAF Innsworth and I was told that you could settle down here for a few years. Well, I had quite a good experience there but the phone rang on my desk. They said terribly sorry Wallace. Could you take two weeks leave and be at such and such. We’re having to post you to Aden because the chap there had fallen ill or some such thing and was being invalided home. Or his wife was. I can’t remember. But he’d gone but of course I went out but in those days you had to travel by sea so I had two weeks and there I was on board. A very pleasant experience, you know, in those days. The officers had the first class of this converted liner. As a duty. And joined there, and I won’t go into details because. I finally got to Aden. And in those days you didn’t have any facility to draw alongside so I had to drop down a ladder into a boat and put ashore. And my mess was, the, where I was going to live, was a [Tarshind?] it was called. Was a little headland where the officer’s mess was. And there was a few little bungalows there with sort of leafy surrounds and the, some of these bungalows were for married quarters. There were a few. And others were provided two accommodations each for an officer. And strangely enough you had your own body servant, if you like, they called them in those days. And I had a young fella called Ali who was a Somali lad. Somali. And of course they had no books. Nobody could read. But the only book was the Kitab. The Muslim bible as it were. Well, Ali nevertheless was a very bright boy and he was I suppose he was about sixteen or seventeen and he’d bring me my morning tea and light my morning cheroot. I used to smoke P John cheroot’s a lot. I’d have my cigar. My cup of tea and my little cheroot in bed often. I can remember on one occasion because you were wearing your shorts all day I arrived at the mess and Ali used to go around the back way and be there at the door to meet me. Take me to my place at the table. In those days of the Raj if you like. And I remember him looking at me and, like this, waving his hands. No. No. I thought what’s wrong with him. Has he been at the hash? You know the green that comes in each week on the camel loads from, and sends him a bit [pause] but no. He was trying to tell me I hadn’t got my trousers on. Well, you don’t miss it. You’re in your shorts all day but you’re in your trousers at night. And I hadn’t I looked down and realised I was just in my shirt tail. I walked out. I did a quick about turn and went back to retrieve my dignity as it were. And however years have rolled on and I’m at Cranwell where I spent, they kept me there for another year to complete a scheme I had. And I had been visiting somewhere to do something and had a staff car. And I said, ‘Stop at the next pub. I would like a glass of beer.’ So the driver pulled in at this pub. I walked in and there was a very crowded bar. And I was sort of trying to — I’m not very tall so it’s easy to be below everybody else and a voice said, ‘Could I buy you a pint, sir?’ I looked up and there was Ali. I had arranged for him before I left to do an Alaska job which meant that you got on board a ship and you could choose when your period two, three, four years service was over. You could choose which port you wished to have taken back. Ali had chosen Southampton and was now an inspector of steel. And his golden mark as it were went on the ingots was to prove the value and quality and so on. And there I am meeting him again. The most extraordinary coincidence of my life. One of them anyway. There. And I kick myself to this day that I did not get his telephone number and address when I left. And I was away in the car and I couldn’t get back.
CB: Yeah.
DW: But that was me meeting Ali as I said and it showed that my arrangements that I had been able to make for his future paid off and that I learned how successful it had been by this quite extraordinary coincidence. Yeah.
CB: After Cranwell where did you go?
DW: Cranwell. I was kept on at Cranwell. I spent four years there.
CB: What did you do there particularly?
DW: I ran sub aqua and introduced it to the cadets who as you know we tried to produce officers who are no question, are totally confident. But they can be an absolute pain in the back of the neck because I who had taught them that I’m on a boat, a little boat were diving in. What do you call it. Not research. Checking out pipelines and things under water and these guys — it was the Mediterranean in Cyprus. And these were guys who were coming ashore or sitting on the boat telling me how to put on my equipment. I thought, God, I’ll show them. So I said, ‘Right. We’ve got enough.’ Oh we were diving for underwater, at that point we had a duty for the RAF for the Natural History Museum.
CB: Was this a detachment to Cyprus?
DW: It, yes, and they were, I had been in the Natural History Museum. I saw a photograph of a whale. And it said very rare so and so and so and so. And I thought I’ve a much better photograph. So I called one of their people in uniform. They went and brought this chap from behind and we talked back, I said yes, I’ve got this photograph. ‘Did I ever see a Mediterranean seal like it?’ ‘Oh yes. Quite often. Used to try and swipe the bait.’ ‘Oh what colour?’ I said, ‘Brown.’ ‘No they weren’t,’ said he. I said, ‘Look. Who saw them? You or me?’ I can remember this conversation. The net result was that I was to try and take an expedition on their behalf to Cyprus. And we were to try and photograph the Monachus Monachus. The Mediterranean seal. And also to bring back a collection of coloured sponges from underwater caves which saw absolutely no light at all but these multi coloured sponges. And one of the questions as I understood it was why should you have colour in the darkness? You know. These are as I recall, anyway however I agree, as you could imagine, quite enthusiastically with this idea. And I collected a bunch of cadets to take as training for them and another officer, a flight lieutenant, to come along. And off we set for Cyprus. This was a return for me. We went up to the top of the island. And I went to the monastery which is at the esoteric Monastery to see if I could buy bread and a goat for a barbecue. And I was told I couldn’t buy but I would be given as much bread as I wanted. So we made sure that there was a good donation to a charitable outreach by the monks there. And set up our camp. Started trying to photograph the seal. We were successful in that and at the same time I gave a permission to gather some sponges. Now sponges are black underneath the water. They are mounds. They are covered in a kind of black polythene with holes in it and it takes, it takes a fair amount of time to recognise the sponge with it’s black covering as I said. And it will become the wash aid that you use in the bath. Because the bulk of them are wild as you call them and will never transform. Now, certain shades and slightly less gloss and so on which I could recognise immediately because of my experience. But these cadets who were getting on our backs by this time about knowing everything and telling us how to put [our gear on] I said right you can have your opportunity to take some sponges to take home. But I explained to them what to wear. I remember sitting a bit like Canute, you know. Sailing that close to the water. And they were coming up with their arms laden with these beautiful little black and I’m saying, ‘No. No. No.’ So they were casting their useless. And it might be just occasionally be yes. And I can remember the little blighters there. They had visions of taking home these. I can show you some of these I’ve got. But as I say you’ve got to have a particularly resilient nature to be able to withstand close proximity to a Cranwell cadet in training.
CB: At Cranwell itself.
DW: Pardon?
CB: So actually at Cranwell itself. When you were at Cranwell with the cadets. What was the main role that you had and what was the reaction of the cadets?
DW: Your main role first of all was as a chaplain. You conducted and you gave talks on lifestyle. And that were all tabled and each of the talks was as I said lifestyle. My memory came back. And the importance perhaps of having a faith. So you didn’t go there as an evangelist, as it were. One hoped, one would hope that would showing the sort of life that a normal Christian would live and if it is different or was different from that of others perhaps they could see something in your life that would encourage them to follow suit. So, as I said very active. For instance, I found myself, we had a mid-air collision between two air craft off the bay and I was responsible for trying to recover the part of the wing and fuselage of the two aeroplanes to show what angle they hit at so that it could be worked out who was responsible or stop such a [pause] so there I was and coming off the work, rushing up to take a service and then back down. But it was all just a part of life.
CB: So these. Most of the cadets were straight out of school.
DW: Yes.
CB: And they actually came from a wide variety of backgrounds but –
DW: They did.
CB: But actually there was a predominance, probably, of public school boys was there?
DW: I don’t know. That’s, that’s you’ve posed a question that I never even considered.
CB: Because they were used to chapel every day.
DW: I did not [pause] I took them as they were and I never recall giving any thought to their backgrounds. They were there. They were what they were. How they became what they were was really — I did not consider. I just sort of seemed to accept that these young men who had passed certain tests and were considered officer material and it was my job to pass on what I considered were principles and activities that would serve the royal air force well and them too
CB: I suppose, in a way, I’m getting to the what I’m trying to say is the public school boys would be the people who would have had religion every day when they were at school and I wondered how that impinged on their activities when they were at Cranwell and their activities when they were and their receptiveness and otherwise to your —
DW: I didn’t notice. That’s a question I never considered before. Never mind now. As I said, I can only say I took people as they were. I wasn’t interested in what they were before.
CB: Yes. I wasn’t thinking what they were only other than their attitude towards religion.
DW: Yeah. Well as I said I can only reiterate that this religion I’d hoped that they would follow suit. Go to church.
CB: Yes.
DW: And it’s not going to church that I’m interested in it’s become a follower of the Christ.
CB: Yes.
DW: Whom I admire and was my hero.
CB: After Cranwell where did you go?
DW: Right. At Cranwell. I was there for a longer time because I had this scheme. I can’t remember what it was. Oh I got married quarters. That’s right. I managed to get the married quarters into church. The married quarters were quite a way and it was all just officers cadets. But I got a bus organised and that went every Sunday around the married quarters. There was married quarters down there. And we finished up with quite a thriving Sunday school. In fact the photograph’s up there. And so what used to have been a kind of a detached part of the building for training young officers became what I thought the little parish church taking in airmen’s families as well as officers.
CB: Yeah.
DW: And I think that was one of the vagaries that they kept, kept me on there.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
DW: They already told me they were going to promote me. I can’t remember. And of course ultimately I saw the future. I only had chaplains as parishioners as it were and I to me I was a bit reluctant in that respect to leave because I really enjoyed having families.
CB: Sure.
DW: What rank were you then?
CB: I was a wing commander.
DW: Right.
CB: And I knew that this, ‘cause it’s the senior rank I could achieve in the royal air force. So ultimately I spent fifteen years I spent as a group captain.
DW: Where did you go from Cranwell?
CB: That was a ceiling.
DW: Where did you go from Cranwell?
CB: Well I had to buy a house somewhere.
DW: Posting.
CB: Yeah. The posting was I had of three offices. One, in Strike Command. Bomber Command, Coastal Command and Strike Command. Fighter, Bomber, Fighter and Coastal. That’s it. Three. Which ultimately became Signals Command. Four. And I provide services for these command in my denominations. And I had to find somewhere to buy a house convenient to living in married quarter which would have been very inconvenient. So we bought this house which served the purpose of access to airfields. For instance, my car would arrive in the morning and we would drive off to Beaconsfield.
Other2: Beaconsfield.
Other3: Beaconsfield.
DW: It became a, it became a —
CB: That’s the language school.
DW: No. It became a Borstal or something, you know.
CB: Right.
DW: Out west of here.
CB: Oh right. Broadmoor.
DW: Or a prison. So, anyway I was able to drive off usually these small aeroplanes with two seats.
CB: Yes.
DW: And off I would go somewhere in the UK. Fly me back home by six. So it was very civilised.
CB: Yes. Very good. When did you come here then? When did you buy this?
DW: 1967. I think it was. Something like that.
Other2: Nearly fifty years.
Other3: Nearly fifty years ago.
CB: Good. Good move. Right. I’m going to stop there.
DW: Good.
CB: Because we’ve done a brilliant job. I’m going to suggest that another time I pop back just to look at some pictures and things if we may.
DW: Yeah.
CB: And how to support this because you’ve done brilliantly well and I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.
DW: Do you want to photograph the photograph?
CB: Well I was going to ask you whether that can be copied but what I’ll do is to arrange. Now, I’m actually Sundays is a busy day for probably is it?
Other: Sundays.
DW: Well.
CB: Do you tend to go to church in the morning?
Other2: We go to church in the morning.
DW: And then after church usually there’s —
Other2: Coffee and come home.
CB: Right. Well next Sunday I’m going to Hendon and so in the afternoon if I could pop in on the way back would that be convenient or have you got something else on?
Other3: Which day do we go to —?
Other: That’s the 23rd.
DW: Well we were going. Wait a minute.
Other: Shall I get the diary? Shall I get the diary?
Other2: I’ll go and get it. I know where it is.
Other: I saw it. It’s in the kitchen.
CB: It doesn’t have to be that day.
Other2: You happen to be passing.
CB: Happen to be passing.
DW: We’re going to the Currans on Monday.
Other2: On Monday. So we should be here on Sunday.
DW: So we’ll be away for four days. Is that —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Donald Wallace
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-15
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWallaceDS161015, PWallaceDS1610
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:42:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Navy
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Cyprus
Atlantic Ocean
Scotland--Rothesay
Description
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Born in Edinburgh, Donald was 14 when war began. As a messenger during the bombing he remembers wanting to get back at Hitler so joined the Royal Navy at 17. He trained at Harwich then joined HMS Hotspur on Atlantic convoy duties. He recalls his first voyage, learning about all aspects of the ship and undergoing initiation by being made to sleep on a wet deck instead of below.
Donald then trained at Rothesay as a submarine detection (ASDIC) operator before joining HMS Essington. He served on the Arctic convoys and recalls surviving a torpedo attack in the English Channel and being shelled from Guernsey whilst hunting a submarine.
After the war Donald entered the church and became a Royal Air Force Chaplain and he tells amusing stories of his RAF service. His first posting was to RAF Halton, where his wartime medal ribbons earned him respect, despite arriving late on parade with oily hands from a recalcitrant bicycle chain. Then he moved to RAF Innesworth where he arranged a guard of honour for a friend's wedding, which impressed his Air Chief Marshall.
Donald was then posted to Aden, describing accommodation, training, and service anecdotes. From Aden, he was posted to RAF Cranwell where he set up a Sunday School, taught cadets to dive and took them to Cyprus to assist in some marine research. He recalls travelling around the Mediterranean to perform pipeline inspections and to referee boxing matches.
His final post was administering Bomber, Fighter and Coastal Commands, for which he flew around numerous RAF stations.
He also describes flying in a Vulcan and a Victor with his pilot brother and speaks of his emotion on visiting the National Arboretum and reading the names of the dead from HMS Blackwood, which was hit by the torpedo that missed Essington.
In later life he received the Ushakov medal and the Légion d'honneur.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
faith
memorial
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halton
RAF Innesworth
sport
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/640/8910/ASmithBM170118.1.mp3
80a4542cbc4605b7e4b258e8665a4cee
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Smith, Barry
Barry Michael Smith
B M Smith
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Smith, BM
Description
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Four items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Barry Smith (b.1929, 582398 Royal Air Force). He was an aprentice at RAF Halton and served as a fitter. Also includes service memoir and a photograph.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Barry Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 18th of January 2017 and I’m in Bierton with Barry Smith who went to Halton and then served a long time in the RAF. So what are your first recollections of life Barry?
BM: Um, Stotfold in Oxford — in Bedfordshire, um, which was where my father and mother moved to when my father was posted to RAF Henlow, um, which I think was about twelve months — um, sorry.
CB: That’s OK.
BM: That was silly.
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo [interview stopped at 0:00:57 and restarted 0:01:00]. OK Barry, so what are your earliest recollections then of life really?
BM: In Coppice Mead in Stotfold, which was a row of houses that were built by a Mr Turby Gentle [?], twenty four houses and we occupied those in round about 1935. My father was at — posted, stationed Henlow, at RAF Henlow, and was an airframe fitter and, er, we stayed there until 1940 when he’d moved to RAF Brize Norton, um, on 30— 6MU and we moved subsequently to Witney in Oxfordshire, er, into a set of new houses that had been built especially for the Ministry of Defence called Springfield Oval. My record — my recollections of that include my mother calling me out of bed one night into — to look out of the window of the bathroom across Witney to see some — a big fire in the middle of Witney. A stray German bomber had dropped a stick of three bombs in Witney and, er, they’d set alight a row of army trucks that were on the church green and, er, my mother was really quite worried that the Germans were there. It didn’t bother me at all of course because I was unaware of the risks involved in bombs dropping. Pause. [interview stopped at 02.55.9 and restarted at 03:02:1]
CB: Before you went to Brize you were in Stotfold. So what are your experiences there?
BM: Um, well I recall starting school and walking to school with a little girl who lived down the road and she used to come and call for me, a lady, young lady named Pat Trafford, and we used to walk to St Mary’s Infants School and they moved to Cardington, um, near Bedford, and I continued going to school on my own and then we moved, age of seven, I moved up to the boys school in Stotfold, Stotfold County Boys School, it was called I think. And I used to walk there called Glen Wogan, who was my — our next door neighbour and we were usually late, late back from lunch because, er, we used to pick conkers and chestnuts and walnuts and things on the way back to school after lunch. So we invariably got the cane for being late back to school, um, and Mr Thomas who was the — was our teacher at that time used to wield an inch thick mixing stick that he used to mix the Horlicks with and that hurt, um, and we used to get three of those on each hand if we were late and thought noth— thought nothing seriously of it. And then we moved to — as I say we moved to —from Stotfold subsequently we moved to Witney. Hold it. [interview stopped at 0:04:51:0 and restarted at 0:55:7:00]
CB: So you lived in Witney. What, what were the houses?
BS: There were fifty houses that were built, semi-detached houses, built in Springfield Oval for the Ministry of Defence. We lived in number three so my dad got off the mark fairly early apparently but most of the people round there actually worked — the men worked at Brize Norton.
CB: For the RAF.
BS: For the RAF and — but they were all civilians and, er, I remember Mr Glaister walking to the bus in the middle of winter in his Home, um, Home Guard uniform, he was a lieutenant I think in the Home Guard. And he subsequently died as a result of his chilblains, um, going up —
CB: Because of being on duty in the cold weather.
BS: Insisting on wearing his boots and, and gaiters and so on and so forth and he had, as I say, chilblains and they got the better of his legs and he subsequently died as a result. My dad never joined the Home Guard a. He was too short and b. I think he felt that they were toy soldiers which was naughty really but he was [emphasis] the air raid warden so we housed all the spare stirrup pumps and buckets and, um, all that memorabilia for fighting fires. So we learned how to handle incendiary bombs if they fell. I don’t know where they were going to fall but we didn’t get any. As I say, the only three bombs we got were dropped in the centre of Witney which was a mile and a half a mile away across the valley. [background noise]
CB: Your father was originally in the RAF but he was on a —
BS: A seven and five year engagement.
CB: Which meant what?
BS: Seven years and five years, seven years in the colours and five years on the reserve.
CB: OK.
BS: And his seven years would have ended in 1935, um, and he and Mr Trafford that I spoke of earlier were employed as civilians at RAF Cardington by then and subsequently was — he was posted from Cardington to RAF Brize Norton, um, but as far as I know Mr Trafford carried on working at Cardington, as far — you know.
CB: And what did your father do at Brize Norton?
BS: He was a civilian air raid — airframe fitter.
CB: Oh, he was. Right. So, how long did he work there?
BS: Oh, until he, he retired in — at sixty I think and got — or was made redundant around about aged sixty and got a job as a postman and delivered the, the mail around Witney for a few years.
CB: When the war, when the war came was he not recalled to the RAF?
BS: Because he’d got a reserved occupation at Brize Norton.
CB: He was in the reserves but he had a reserved occupation?
BS: Had reserved occupation so he wasn’t called up.
CB: How extraordinary.
BS: So he was really rather fortunate.
CB: Yes. OK.
BS: And during that time he used to bring home for me bullets and bits and pieces that he’d picked up on the airfield and I used to strip them down and used the contents to make fireworks which was a little bit naughty but, er, we did, and I learned while I was at school in Witney, um, how to make gunpowder. And that was rather convenient because the chemist would always sell us, um, potassium perm— potassium nitrate because you could use potassium nitrate for curing rabbit pelts, um, which was why we bought the potassium nitrate but, of course, we made our own charcoal by burning willow twigs in a chocolate, a cocoa tin, and we got our sulphur from Early’s Mills because Earlys used to use — they’d got big wooden sheds that they used to hang the blankets in to bleach them and they bleached them by burning raw sulphur and, of course, there was always a lot of odd bits of sulphur sticks hanging around and we used to get our sulphur from that. So the combinations we had to work out of sulphur and charcoal and potassium nitrate, we had to work out what the thing was to make a sensible bang, which we succeeded in doing.
CB: To what extent did your teacher know about these activities?
BS: He didn’t. He didn’t. He didn’t even tell us the combination of the — um, making the gunpowder. We had to work that out ourselves but I did take an interest in chemistry while I was at, um, that central school in Witney. And my gardening master, Mr Goldsmith, er, was a German Jew refugee, who taught us gardening and he was superb. He roused my interest in chemistry and biological, um, chemistry and that sort of thing and roused, as I say, roused my whole concept of chemistry, especially biological chemistry, which I never followed up. But um —
CB: So how long were you at this school for?
BS: Until I was fourteen, until I was — and then my — I had an extension. I was the only one — there were two of us, um, had homework for a number of years and two of us managed to stay on or were invited to stay on for an extra year, so I was fifteen by the time I actually left, but there was only two of us in school who stayed on ‘till fifteen. [cough] And my mum then got me a job with Mr Mallard who was an optical manufacturer or a — and I was employed as an optical lens maker.
BT: Grinding up.
BS. Grinding lenses, um, for prescriptions for glasses and I worked there. I’d taken the exams to join the Royal Air Force which was my father’s oranis— organisation, um, he had guided my studies at school and guided the fact that I had homework and nobody else did, um, and made arrangements for me to sit the Halton apprentice entrance examination which I think had he not been in the service I wouldn’t have got through to the, um, invitation stage because I’m sure I didn’t pass the exam and, er, I got to Halton, as I said, in February 1945.
CB: OK. [background noise]
BS: The day war broke out —
CB: Yes?
BT: [laugh]
BS: It was a lovely summer’s day and I came — it was a Sunday and I came in from the garden, having been digging an air raid shelter, to find my mother in tears.
BT: In tears.
BS: And I wondered why she was crying and she said told me, she said, ‘Because we’re at war.’
CB: And then what? What happened then?
BS: Well she stopped crying eventually and, er, we carried on building or digging this air raid shelter and putting some, um, corrugated iron over the top to put a lid on it, um, but it wasn’t a very good air raid shelter and we didn’t follow it up to —.
CB: Did you ever use it?
BS: No. No.
CB: Right.
BS: There was no evidence of the war in Stotfold while we were there and we went to — as I say we moved to Witney in Oxfordshire in 1940 anyway, late 1940, and I think that when those three bombs dropped in Witney it was an aircraft returning from Coventry, um, and didn’t want to go home with his bombs so he just ditched them so he could get home quicker, which you can’t blame him for I suppose.
CB: Right, so you were close to Brize Norton airfield which still operational —
BS: Five miles away.
CB: Yep. And so were — how were you aware of what was going on? Did it become busy and did it get bombed? Or what happened?
BS: No. I — we became aware of it getting busy at Brize Norton when they starting practising towing gliders, um, Hamilcars and —
CB: Horsas.
BS: Horsas, yeah, and Hectors, but the little small ones that they, they practiced with, and, er, they were towing those with Albemarle aircraft and, and we were aware of them training with those gliders. No concept of what they were for, of course, um, but that was the only evidence really we saw. I do remember going to boy scouts. We used to go to boy scouts on a Monday night and I remember that during one of the winters but I can’t remember which it would have been, ‘42 perhaps, ’4—, can’t remember but I remember standing outside autumn-ish, so it was a cold dark night and standing outside the scout hut and my patrol leader saying, ‘Ah, they’re Jerries you know.’ We heard the drone of these aircraft flying overhead but we didn’t see anything but I’m fairly confident they were on their way. We would have been on the route to Coventry and it might well have been one of the raids in that direction that we were aware of but no idea of what it was all about. But that was the only connection really. During the war we got, er, evidence of, um, Americans in the town, stationed, and they were stationed on the church green I remember and we used to scrounge chewing gum off of them and, um, that sort of thing but they, they didn’t stay there all that long but I remember there was an air raid shelter in Witney, um, hard by the church green I remember and we were rather concerned that if a bomb dropped near that it might well not be man enough to hold up and, er, I remember hearing around about that time of a, an air raid shelter that I imagined to be very similar actually being hit by a bomb and I don’t quite — that would have come in the news but I can remember picturing the event and what would have happened if the bomb had hit that particular air raid shelter, um, which was — yeah, eye opening, but that was the only concern.
CB: At, um, school to what extent did the pupils discuss the war?
BS: Not very much. No, very, very little. We were very only slightly concerned. We used to dig for victory of course. We had one half day a week at the allotment that the school ran, um, and my father I know was keen on cultivating food in our garden and he also took a, an allotment on, fairly close to where we lived and, of course, rationing was of some consequence. I don’t remember ever being hungry, um, and I do remember later on going down on my dad’s bike to do the shopping on a Saturday morning and going from shop to shop to find out what they’d got under the counter, um, like chocolate and sweets and so on and so forth and I used to go down on a Saturday morning to buy exotic, as far as I was concerned, exotic cakes, cream cakes and jam sponges and things and I used to buy a quantity of these for the neighbours and cycle home with this half a dozen or so cakes but they were only available in this one particular bakers which was rather fascinating. [background noise] [laugh]
CB: So being a commercial minded sort of chap did you have a little business running on this sort of thing?
BS: No. What I, I did do, I used to go down to the River Windrush and catch crayfish and my mum used to cook them, drop them into a big boil— boiling vat, a saucepan of boiling water, and cook these crayfish and I’d go round these fifty houses and I used to sell them at a penny each. So yes I did, yeah.
CB: And what was rationing like?
BS: I was never really aware. I, you know, I wouldn’t know what an ounce of butter looked like anyway, you know. I don’t ever remember going short. If I wanted a slice of bread I had one. If I wanted — you know. Alright we used to get a bit of dripping here and there and — to go on the bread but you lived as it came, didn’t you? You know, you lived as — I, as I say I don’t ever remember going hungry. And we had rabbit of course and, and we used to — we bred our own rabbits, or at least my dad did, so we used to have a rabbit fairly frequently.
CB: Did you go out catching them as well?
BS: No. I think we may have — my mum may have bought a rabbit from time to time but I, I’m not really very — much aware of that.
CB: So you were due to leave school at fourteen.
BS: Stayed on.
CB: But you had an extension until you were fifteen but you had an extension to fifteen —
BS: Yes.
CB: What was the purpose of that?
BS: Um, the essence was that I was qualifying or training, if you like, to be able to pass this exam, this entrance exam for the RAF and, um, I could take the entrance exam when I was fifteen and a half, um, and my dad wanted to be sure that I was capable of passing it. So yes, I stayed on to train for the examination I suppose for the entrance exam for the RAF.
CB: And what happened when you took the exam?
BS: [slight laugh] I wish I could remember. As I say, I was called forward in the February of ’45 to come to Halton for interview and attestation, if that was to be, selection if you like and attestation, um, and we were all marched into the — what is now the Trenchard Museum which was the Henderson Grove Gymnasium at the time, for sorting out and, um, allocation of trades, and I had applied to be a radio technician and by the time they got down to me they’d got all the radio technicians they wanted and they said, ‘No. There isn’t a vacancy for you. Would you like to be an electrician?’ So I said, ‘Yes please.’ But it wasn’t my first choice but I think I was rather lucky to get that.
CB: So then when you’d got that how did that work? They had, er, an initial interviewing and kitting out and then what?
BS: Well, well initially of course we had to get kitted, kitted out. We were put, we were into groups which they’d labelled A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I ,J, K, parties of about sixteen, a roomful of about sixteen chaps who had been given their trades, and then we were moved into — we got our kits and so on and had to stamp them all up with our service numbers and, er, and then we were allocated rooms according to trade and, er, most of my electrician mates went into two rooms but there wasn’t room for myself and my mate John Rouchier [?]. We were in another block and then subsequently [emphasis] moved, fairly quickly actually, but moved down to another room full of engine [emphasis] fitters so we were the only two electricians in a room of elec— of engine fitters, er, which was in some ways disappointing but it didn’t really matter. We still got matey with the people who were in the room and you know —
CB: How many people in the room?
BS: Sixteen.
CB: And this is in a block?
BS: Of six rooms.
CB: Of six rooms, OK.
BS: And with an inside bunk and an outside bunk which was occupied by a senior apprentice NCO apprentice. Normally you had a sergeant apprentice in the inside bunk and then, um, a leading apprentice was in charge of the room outside, in one of the — in the first bed by the bunk, if you like, but then the sergeant apprentice who was in charge of the block would be in one of the outside bunks.
CB: And, and this was part of the process with a senior person to keep control?
BS: Oh yes. A, a senior entry of course, um, which made sense. They were almost like schoolboy monitors I suppose.
CB: So there were several barrack blocks, um, with this?
BS: We occupied two barrack blocks.
CB: OK. So how many people in total? This is your entry, number —
BS: Fifty at entry.
CB: Number fifty entry, yeah.
BS: Well about two hundred and — I can’t recall now. About two hundred and fifty of us stayed at Halton. About fifty more actually went to Cranwell as the RAF — as the radio and radar fitters. The precise numbers of course I’ve got recorded there.
CB: In your book. Yeah. So here you are —
BS: Go on. OK.
CB: Yes, so here you are allocated accommodation. What did, what did you do? You, you were conducted into the RAF in a sequence so how did that work?
BS: Oh the attestation sequence you’re referring to. We were taken up in groups, essentially room groups, into the upstairs of the NAAFI, um, and sat at a desk on which there was our attestation papers which we had to read and sign and we were obliged to, to do the oath of, um, allegiance to the Crown and we were allocated at that point our service numbers of course. [background noise]
CB: Uniform?
BS: Oh, we were in uniform by that time, er, that was before we were issued with our uniforms, yes of course, yeah.
CB: So then you had to get your uniforms and how distinctive were those? OK.
BS: I need time. [background noise]
CB: The reason I asked you about the clothing because it’s distinctive within the trades in some ways and within the speciality of being an apprentice. So how did that go?
BS: The significant thing about uniforms initially was that the only distinction we had that we were apprentices, other than any other kind of member of the Royal Air Force, was that we were issued with the four-bladed propeller wheel badge which we was to sew onto our left arm, um, of our tunics. We were issued with two tunics and when we got our kit wheel badges to go on the great coat and our two tunics and cap badges, of course, to go on our forage cap and our service dress cap, the peaked service dress cap. We were also issued with a coloured band to go round our service dress cap and one to go round our forage cap which determined which squadron we belonged to and we became D Squadron of 1 Wing with a brown, um, a chocolate brown band, which was fairly soon changed because of objections to, um, a chocolate brown and orange checked band and that was then changed to a pale blue one when we became A Squadron of 2 Wing. Then we moved to 3 Wing and got an orange band and a red disk behind the cap badge to indicate that we were A Squadron of now 3 Wing. So from being a squadron identification the band became a wing identification at that particular time. [pause] [background noise]
CB: So we’ve talked about your uniform, er, and the variations of it but in practical terms here you are in a. In a training establishment and b. In a technical training establishment which tends to be dirty. So how did they deal with that?
BS: Well we were issued with a pair of overalls we called them. I believe you called them —
CB: Overalls is fine. Yeah.
BS: And they were changed if they got dirty but essentially once a week, collectively, and when they came back from the laundry, um, you tried to pick out a pair that a. Fitted you and b. Weren’t too torn but, yeah, it was, um, pot luck what you got so, you know, so occasionally you finished up with a rough old pair of overalls that had got no buttons or method of fixing but those we wore at workshops, when we went to where we did the practical. When we went to schools, of course, where we did the academic side of the training we just wore ordinary uniform, er, even when we went into the laboratories in schools but of course we weren’t doing anything particularly grubby in schools and —
CB: When you say in schools it’s because there are departments of technical training that you call the school?
BS: The school was where the academic subjects were handled which were maths and science, um, mechanics. Science tended to deal with, um, your trade topics and the — we had a general studies which did the history of the RAF and the history of flying and general topics, um, including little bits of Shakespeare and, as I say, they were called general studies and one of our major tasks during the two years that we did of schools — ‘cause although the apprenticeship was three years only two years was spent doing academic subjects, and we qualified, those of us who were good enough, qualified for the First Ordinary National Certificate. But the task, as far as I was concerned, the main task we had to do in the academic line was to assemble an essay of, I don’t know, I don’t remember, five thousand words or something, fairly extensive essay we had to dream up and to those of us who hadn’t then or even now hadn’t a good command of the English language that was a bit of a challenge but there you go, I did one, and managed to pass. But as I say the school’s activity, academic activity went on for two years when we sat the First National Certificate which included at that [emphasis] time, um, maths and science essentially and, er, general studies wasn’t included, I don’t think but, er, as I say that, that was just two years, um, what was it? I can’t — [background noise]
CB: And we’ve talked about academic stuff and we’ve talked about practical but, to put it into context, there were lots of other things you had to do, like PT and marching and so on, so just take us through would you? A typical day. You wake up and what did you do?
BS: Well I think some of it can be put into context by a little rhyme that was actually printed in a 1939 issue of the “Haltonian” magazine, which starts off with, “In the dwellings of the birdmen and the barrack blocks behind them grew up the handsome air apprentice 5620 Hiawatha. Every morning at the sunrise baring, blaring bugles broke his slumbers, roused him from his iron bedstead, bestead hard and bedstead cruel, air apprentice for the use of. Next would find him, um, eating flesh, round the fleshpots.” No, no. “Bitterly —” I’ve ruined it. [laugh] [unclear]
CB: So you’d wake up in the morning and what would happen?
BS: With the, the reveille.
CB: Yep. Which is on the tannoy and the tannoy is a loudspeaker?
BS: No, it was a proper, proper —
CB: Bugle?
BS: Trumpet, proper trumpet, and you’d go and get washed and dressed and shaved, if you had to, and you’d go with your mug and irons (your knife, fork and spoon and cup), walk up to the mess (we had our own mess hall) for breakfast, and you’d queue up for your porridge and cornflakes or whatever and egg and bacon. We were very well fed actually, um, and normally [emphasis] they were issued — they were handed out by a mess cook, who was someone from the room who was given the duty of picking up a tray of eggs and bacon or whatever from the servery, and bringing it to the table to distribute to, to his own room at that table. After breakfast, um, we’d almost certainly be called out for parade, to form up to march down to schools or to workshops, most frequently behind either the pipe band or the brass band. We’d be carrying our books if we were going to school in our satchel, in our side pack, or if we were going to workshops we’d carry our overalls in our side pack, um, sometimes we would wear a cape as a — in bandolier fashion round in case it was going to rain. If the forecast was good then we’d just parade with nothing but we’d carry a cape if it was suggested it was going to rain, um, in bandolier fashion as I said, round our shoulder and, of course, if it was actually raining the cape would be open and we would be wearing it as you see it on the war memorial in Green Park. And we marched down to either schools or to workshop, schools which are now in a building called, now called Kermode Hall. Group Captain, Air Commodore Kermode was very responsible, very much responsible, for the development of the education of apprentices at Halton and very highly regarded too and, as I said, we were split into smaller classes because the classes were smaller anyway. We were split into classes of about thirteen. In my entry there were thirty, thirty-two, thirty-three electricians and we were split into three classes a, b and c, and we would all go, we would all go to school together and the days we were going to workshops we would all do the training but in, as I say, in the separate classes in workshops. [background noise]
CB: So after you return from breakfast and you’ve got everything you need for the day then what did you do?
BS: We would either dress to by paraded to go for — down to workshops or schools, in which case we paraded outside at trumpet call, um, we would be inspected to check that our buttons and boots had been cleaned and that we hadn’t — didn’t need a haircut or if we did we were informed that we would need to get one. And then, as I say, we would march down behind to — onto the square to march down to workshops or — behind the pipe or brass band. On the days that we were going to do PT, which would be probably two or three times a week, we would parade outside in PT kit and separately [emphasis] and then just be marched off to a venue, maybe on the square, maybe in the gymnasium, to do a series of, um, conventional exercises. On other occasions we would stay behind to do marching drill on the square with rifles and bayonets. We had eighteen inch bayonets at that time we were issued with, which again was a piece of equipment we had to keep clean, and we had the SMLE rifles which were kept in a room in a rifle rack with a Horsa [?] select — secured with a padlock by the leading apprentice and as I say we would go onto the square and do marching drill and practice and, of course, and initially there were several members of the entry who found it difficult to coordinate their left and right arms with their left and right legs but most of them overcame that difficulty. I suspect those that didn’t departed because occasionally there’d be an empty bed space which would be a bit of a puzzle and I remember that we occupied, John Rouchier [?] and I, occupied two bed spaces in the engine apprentices room 4:2, Block 4 Room 2 that is, and we occupied two bed spaces that had suddenly become vacant and it was many years afterwards I discovered that the two people who had occupied those spaces had actually had an early discharge from the Royal Air force and I know not the reason for that and neither did anyone else in the room. There were just two empty bed spaces and we, John Rouchier [?] and I, were moved out of one block into this block, into these two empty bed spaces, just to make up the numbers but nobody spoke about where the two lads had gone. Now that occurred to, I think, half a dozen or so people in the entry.
CB: Out of thirty-two?
BS: No, out of two hundred and fifty or whatever that I know of.
CB: Of the entry, OK.
BS: That I’m aware of, yeah, and when I was doing the research for the entry I identified those people who’d been, um, discharged very early on and realised that the empty bed spaces I became aware of had been occupied by these people because they were in the trade groups where the empty bed spaces appeared which was rather strange and I still l haven’t got to the bottom of that mystery.
CB: Just one question on that. We talked about after breakfast [clears throat] —
BS: Yes.
CB: You go back to the room. At what point did you make the bed and how?
BS: Oh we made that before we went to breakfast.
CB: Right, and how did you do it?
BS: Well the beds that we had were McDonalds which were cast iron frames with strip, wrought iron slats, across and three so-called biscuits which were, er, coir filled paillasse type things which, um, covered —
CB: As a mattress.
BS: As a mattress. A, a three-part mattress if you like.
BT: Come on everybody, I’ll have those. [sound of crockery]
CB: Yep, yep.
BS: And we used to match, marry one of them, wrap it up in a blanket as a seat and two of them married, the other two married up in a blanket as a backdrop and behind the backdrop would be the, the two folded sheets and a pillow and a pilaster which we had so the bed was made up armchair fashion, um, because the McDonald bed actually had four wheels on the front part and the half at the front pushed under the rear part and that made, with the two, with the three mattress biscuits, an armchair and, of course, your locker overhead, locker, your steel locker was occupied by your — one pair of your PT pants and a PT vest or singlet and a cap comforter and — I can’t recall what the other item was but there were four items that had to be laid out in pristine form, biscuit form almost, in your locker and your mug and irons delicately displayed beside it and nothing else on the shelves. You had a box, we had a box at the end of our bed, that stayed under the bed during the day of course, but the box at the end of our bed that contained the rest of our kit, um, which comprised of what? A couple of shirts and six collars and bits and pieces but that was kept in a trunk, if you like, a wooden trunk, at the end of the bed. Not, um, a particularly comfortable situation.
CB: No. So the, the idea of the bed folding the way it did was so that you really had a chair to sit on.
BS: I’m not sure if that was the idea but that’s what it became and of course what it did do was to reveal the rest of the lino, linoleum, which was highly polished.
CB: Right. So that’s the next question I was going to put. What was the means by which the barrack room was cleaned?
BS: Well, there was a list at the end of the room where each occupant was allocated a task, um, two or three people were allocated deck centre, which meant that the people who lived in the room were responsible for their own piece of bed space but the centre deck which was the part beyond the end of your half of the bed when it was folded was the centre deck and they were, two or three people were responsible for polishing that, putting down the polish and buffing it up, so you could almost see your face in it. But of course with dark brown lino, linoleum you couldn’t actually see your face in it. And the toilets were allocated to individuals. The wash hand basins was a separate job. Brasses was a separate job, that was door knobs and taps and that sort of thing, were a separate task and, as far as I know, the people who did brasses actually provided — or did they? Some of them provided their own metal polish. There was metal polish occasionally available. The same as there was always floor polish available in adequate quantities. And then of course we normally walked on the centre deck with floor pads, pieces of torn up blanket, so that you skidded over the floor on pieces of blanket to keep the polish on the floor. So yeah, one chap was allocated, for instance, to clean a bath and another chap — because there were two baths in the toilet block in the centre of the building, or centre of the floor. Two rooms shared a toilet facility, three toilets, two stand-up, er, urinals, I think two baths, um, with six wash basins I think, and a drying room, which was always heated of course, or usually heated, um, where you could hang your smalls if you happened to have enough soap to wash them.
CB: And then how was the polishes shininess maintained? What was the process?
BS: With the floor — essentially with the floor pads. I mean we did have a big bumper that was initially used, which was a big piece of cast iron on a stick, bristle stick, a short stiff bristle brush, which was dragged or pushed over the floor to rub the polish in initially but once the initial polish was there we tended to maintain it with using floor pads which we walked about or skated about on.
CB: And how was the level of cleanliness maintained and checked?
BS: Well it was inspected by the sergeant apprentice on that floor, um, and initially of course by the, by the leading apprentice of your room, who checked your individual tasks but, as I say, the sergeant apprentice for the block would inspect the three lots within the block on three floors and he would inspect the cleanliness of the whole of the block, essentially. I mean once in a while, I don’t know whether it would have been once a month, I don’t remember the frequency, but of course we’d get a squadron commander’s inspection but he didn’t inspect every day but the sergeant apprentice was responsible for the block and he would make sure that it was clean.
CB: So were these tasks to do and the ablutions were the less popular but was there a rota for people so everybody did it in the end? Or how did it work?
BS: Generally speaking they were voluntarily selected, yeah, generally speaking they — there were people who volunteered to do the urinals and there were people who volunteered to do the hand basins so generally it wasn’t difficult. Yes there were several that seemed more attractive than the others. There were several I avoided, um, without difficulty.
CB: So you were in an avoidance mode —
BS: Absolutely.
CB: So were there some people who pulled their weight better than others and how did the system work?
BS: You didn’t — yes of course there were but you didn’t really notice it because there were usually enough volunteers to do those jobs that seemed more distasteful to you, you know.
CB: So if you — were there occasions when you failed inspections or were they always successful?
BS: Oh there were rare occasions when something which would to the inspectors seem serious and you were invited to do it again so you would have a second “bull night” as they were referred to but, er, they didn’t occur very often.
CB: So just to clarify would you? What age are you or —
BS: Well we were allowed to join between fifteen and a half and seventeen and a half to become apprentices so when I joined at fifteen and three quarters I was one of the younger ones in the entry. Many of the other people in my entry were seventeen plus, up to seventeen and a half, and of course had been to grammar school and they’d got their school certificates and so on and were, educationally, streets ahead of me but I didn’t think I noticed at the time. Only subsequently it become obvious that I was less well educated than they were.
CB: Right we’ll pause there. [interview stopped at 0:50:57:1 and restarted 0:50:59.1 ] What about a bit of marching. You had to do a bit of marching in parades. How did that work?
BS: Well, initially it was tricky because at first for a hundred, or a hundred and fifty blokes, or whatever to coordinate and do everything on time without shouting out one pause, two pause, three, whatever, took a time to develop and I think most of us entered into it with a reasonable willingness, er, to try and coordinate it and I remember how proud I [emphasis] felt when we were actually at the Albert Hall and we performed the wheel of remembrance, or something, and we actually marched, the apprentices, for Lady Propeller[?] and we actually marched around in the centre of the Albert Hall, and I remember how proud I was to be part of that. And yeah, it was — I’d like to think, and nobody I think has actually said it, but I’m fairly confident that the origin of the Queen’s Colour Squadron was developed from the order-less, um, drill that we [emphasis] did at Halton, um, rifle drill and so on. We did practice for one of the events at the Albert Hall, command-less drill, rifle drill, and that was before the Queen’s Colour Squadron was formed. Now of course they do it expertly ‘cause they practice it every day.
CB: Yeah. Just to clarify, that the Queens Colour Squadron is the, um, parading —
BS: Royal Air Force Regiment’s —
CB: Go on.
BS: Representatives for celebrations —
CB: Special occasions.
BS: Ceremonial occasions.
CB: Yeah, and tend to be the people who receive dignitaries on airfields?
BS: Yes. Well that’s what they have done. And yeah, of course when they were stationed at Uxbridge with the Royal Central — with the RAF Central Band, um, and the RAF Central Band greeted all the dignitaries who visited this county anyway.
CB: Yeah, yeah.
BS: And, er, I think the Queens Colour Squadron, um, was probably more associated with the RAF Central Band than it was with the RAF Regiment which of course they were part of.
CB: So we’ve talked about your time at Halton. How long were you there?
BS: Three years.
CB: So that’s from February 1945 —
BS: Until March ’48.
CB: Right, and when you got to the end of the three years what was the culmination of that training?
BS: We thought that was the end of our training but we were actually posted, most of us, posted to RAF St Athan, 32 MU, where we were, supposedly, doing further training, continuation training, under supervision or guidance but we were actually doing our trade tasks. Initially I was servicing a flight simulator called a Link Trainer and initially I was responsible for the, er, vacuum motors that drove those machines and they were completely overhauled and serviced at St Athan. I subsequently moved to the Aircraft Electrical Servicing Squadron and I was then servicing the UKX generators, we were completely overhauling UKX generators, which were fitted to the Lancasters. They were the DC and AC, alternating current and direct current generators, that supplied the power for the Lancasters and we were completely overhauling those. And I was at the stripping down and scraping end and my mate was at the far end actually packing them up in greaseproof paper, um, ready to be taken back to stores to be reissued as new generators. But we also started to service E5A generators which were fitted to the North American Harvard which was used for air crew training, pilot training, at places like Cranwell and my boss required me to support that when we started to do them by producing a, a breakdown display of the E5A generators. So the first one we got I had to strip down and make the tools to strip it down with because, of course, it was an American machine so we hadn’t got the necessary spanners and tools to do it. And I mounted that on a display board to show everybody what all the parts were and then we started to service those generators and, er, we also serviced the control panels for the Lancaster, um, electrical control panels that is. That was a very pleasant time, yeah. My boss was a warrant officer, Lockheart, Tubby Lockheart. He was football crazy and I didn’t play football and the only thing that he and I had in common was that when he walked passed by my desk he’d say —, my bench, he’d say, ‘Have you got your — get your hair cut Smith.’ Which was something that plagued me for all my service career and has followed me through life, um, everyone I see tends to suggest, if they don’t actually verbalise it, they tend to suggest I need a haircut, which I think usually do.
BT: You do.
CB: So how long were you at St Athan?
BS: Just the twelve months before I was posted to RAF Cranwell, where again we were servicing KX generators, which were fitted to the Prentice aircraft, which were twin seats flying training aircraft, Percival Prentice, um, but that’s odd because we were servicing those generators but we weren’t servicing the E5As which were fitted to the Harvards, which they were also flying as trainers, advanced trainers. But in our workshop at Cranwell, as I say, we were servicing the KX generator which was the one fitted to the Prentice. And I was promoted to corporal. Took my LAC exam and passed that while I was at Cranwell. And then when they introduced the new trades’ structure I’d been promoted to corporal and my immediate boss was a flight sergeant, who had been a balloon operator, and had just come off course to be an electrician. So when I applied to become a corporal technician he was responsible for taking the trade test and he said, ‘I’ll take your trade test but will you bring your books along? And you can — I’ll ask you the questions and if you can’t answer them we’ll look them up in your book.’ Which we did but that was a very interesting interview we had and, yeah, I passed. He couldn’t really fail me, could he? He’d only just got you LAC himself.
CB: So when did you get the next promotion?
BS: Oh [slight laugh] not until I came back from Malta in ’54. I came back from Malta in ’54, um, I’d been turned down for my third in Malta. My immediate boss said, ‘First of all you’re never here and second you always want a haircut.’ My immediate boss, my proper boss, said, ‘I’m sorry about your promotion corporal.’ He said, ‘Had I realised you were in that zone for promotion you would have had a better assessment than I gave you.’ So my promotion didn’t come through while I was in Malta. It came through while I was at Honington, in Bomber Command and, er, and my boss turned that down but he didn’t give me a reason.
BT: Because your hair was too long.
BS: [laugh] In the meantime — probably because my hair was too long, um, but subsequently it came through again and, in the meantime I’d got my senior tech, which gave me more pay than I got as a sergeant anyway. And he said to me, ‘Your promotion to sergeant has come through. Would you like to take it?’ So I said, ‘Oh, I need time to think about it Sir.’ I went back later on and said, ‘Yes please.’ Because I thought well if at last you think I’m worthy of it I’ll have it so I reconverted from senior tech back to sergeant which was —
CB: In practical terms —
BS: An admin rank.
CB: Right.
BS: Essentially an admin rank.
CB: Yeah, so they’re both the same status.
BS: Yeah but one had more admin responsibilities than the other.
CB: This is still at Honington?
BS: At Honington.
CB: OK. So what were you actually doing at Honington?
BS: Well I was by then essentially a ground electrician, um, although I had been trained as an electrician to do aircraft electrics, when the new trade structure came in and I applied for my corporal technician board, they said to me, ‘What do you want to be, air or ground?’ And I said, ‘Well was trained as both so I’d like to stay both.’ ‘You can’t do that.’ Well the corporal tech pay was bigger than, higher than the corporals, so I said, ‘Well, what’s my choice?’ ‘Well you can be either, air or ground, but one or the other.’ So I said, ‘Alright, I’ll be ground. I don’t need the responsibility of signing Form 700 for aircraft and put my life on the line.’ So I backed out [background noise] and became a ground electrician, which essentially was looking after aircraft dead batteries anyway. So yeah but I didn’t have the responsibility of signing the serviceability rolls for aircraft which I wasn’t too sad about.
CB: What were the aircraft at Honington?
BS: Initially Canberras, er, being in Bomber Command, they had the front line bomber at that time which was the Canberra. Before I moved away from there in ‘56, ‘57, ‘57 I think, they were starting to have the, um, Vickers Valiant, the first of the V, V bomber force, yeah? I didn’t see the Vulcans or the Valiants come into service —
CB: You mean Vulcans or Victors. You saw the Valiant come into service.
BS: The Valiant come into service —
CB: But you didn’t see the Victors or —
BS: The Victors or the Vu— or the Vulcan.
CB: Vulcan.
BS: Yeah.
CB: Right. So when you finished, when did you move from Honington?
BS: Um, well I realised my service, my service was coming to an end and I thought I ought to sign on. I applied to sign on and they wouldn’t have me, presumably because my hair needed cutting [slight laugh], so I thought, ‘Oh dear what am I going to do at the end of my twelve years’ service. What am I going to do?’ So I saw an advert in our routine orders asking for people to volunteer for service with flight simulators, which I did, I applied for, and they said, ‘Well you haven’t got long enough to do.’ So I said, ‘How long do I need?’ ‘Well you need at least three years Chief.’ Sergeant, senior tech as I was then. ‘Oh well alright.’ So I applied sign on for three years and they took me. So I went down then to Redifon in Crawley and I was on detachment down in civvy digs for three, for twelve months. It was a three month course. It lasted six months. And then I stayed there almost on my own because the other people got simulators and moved on. My simulator got cancelled so I stayed in civvy digs in Crawley for twelve months, um, which was great, going to work at Redifon, virtually my own boss, and then one day I got a — somebody called, ‘Phone call from Fighter Command, somebody wants to speak to you.’ So I went to the telephone, ‘Good heavens.’ Said Brian Caplan, ‘Are you still there?’ So I said, ‘Yes Sir’. He said, ‘Well you can’t stay there. You’ll have to go back to your parent unit.’ Which was Coltishall at that time so I’d been posted when I moved onto simulators to Coltishall. I said, ‘Well, I don’t need to go to Coltishall. There’s nothing for me there, Sir.’ I said, ‘My family, I’ve moved my family down to Aylesbury, and I know nothing of Fighter Command or whatever.’ He said, ‘Well, where do you want to go?’ So I said, ‘Halton would be nice.’ And he said, ‘I can’t post you to Halton.’ He said, ‘It’s not in the Command.’ I’m now on the back foot. I said, ‘Well, surely Sir you can find me a little corner at Fighter Command?’ ‘Oh, that’s an idea.’ He said, ‘I’ll ring you back.’ He rang me back ten minutes later and said, ‘Pack your bags. You’re posted to Fighter Command with effect from Monday.’ So I went to Fighter Command at Bentley Priory and spent twelve — spent two years there on detachment in Fighter Command’s, um, aeronautical, er, aircraft engineering set up, Command Head Quarters, with some quite serious responsibilities which I thoroughly enjoyed.
CB: We’ll have a break there for a mo?
BS: Yeah, please. Wait a minute don’t, don’t switch the thing off. [background noise]
CB: You’ve done really well. Now when you went to Bentley Priory of course you had a different role altogether, so what was that.
BS: Absolutely. Well I was essentially the coffee boy for two warrant officers, a flight lieutenant and a squadron leader, who were responsible for the instrument and electrical activities within Fighter Command or all Fighter Command RAF stations. Warrant Officer Lendy [?] was the electrician expert and had come up from, er, previously come up from a Hawker Hunter squadron and had a lot of expertise with Hawker Hunters and in the map drawer in the office he had diagrams, electrical diagrams, for all the Hunters in Fighter Command with all the modifications that they’d had on the relevant diagrams drawn, up to date, with all the terminations marked so that he could actually see the, the modification state of all our Hunters in the Fighter — in the Command. He was pretty good. I know at one time we’d had problems from one station, um, about double power failure warning lights that generate a failure warning light, both of them coming on, and the squadron responsible had been checking for that, um, repeated failure and we kept getting defect reports in the Fighter Command and Doug Lendy [?], this latest one we had, he said, ‘This is ridiculous.’ He took home the diagram relevant to that aircraft. He came back to the office the following morning and he said to me, ‘Do you know about this?’ So I said, ‘Yes Sir.’ He said, ‘Well, read that report again.’ So I read the report. He said, ‘Right now point to the problem.’ I thought, ‘Good Heavens.’ So I looked at the diagram. ‘Well there’. ‘Of course it bloody is.’ He says. It was the earth bolt that took the two power failure warning lights’ negative leads to earth. That was the only point that they’d got in common so they could only both fail —
CB: Because of that.
BS: At that point. Checked up, rang, rang the flight sergeant on the squadron and he said, ‘Yes, of course we’ve checked the earth bolt.’ He said, ‘Well go and check it yourself.’ So he did and came back and reported, ‘Yes, it’s the problem.’ They’d stripped the earth bolt down which contained lots of other earth wires as well in a stack and progressively, as this fault had occurred, the electrician had gone out and tightened down the nut, cured the problem, tightened down the nut, cured the problem but of course each time he tightened it down on the corrosion, the burning and corrosion, and each time it was burning through. So he’d solved it at Bentley Priory several miles away. He’d solved the problem that they’d been struggling with for months.
CB: Because they didn’t do the job right.
BS: Because they didn’t do the job right. But they replaced all the — all the terminations on the cables and cleaned up the earth bolt properly and put it all back and tightened it down properly. Problem gone. So that was Doug Lendy [?]. A man I kind of admired, um, and then as I say —
CB: So your role was quite broad though.
BS: Absolutely broad, yeah, and one could argue it was outside my pay scale.
CB: OK.
BS: I had responsibilities way above my station [slight laugh] which —
CB: So you had to go on sorties to stations sometimes. What were they?
BS: Well, we started to develop electronic, um, combined electronic centres on the Fighter Command stations. Bomber Command had already done it for their, their stations. They had, Bomber Command, um, electronic servicing centres which did all the electrics and radio and radar and they started to develop one for Fighter — especially for Fighter Command and my boss was responsible, of course, for the layout of the power supplies and air supplies, electrical supplies, all of that sort of thing within the electronic servicing centre and where things were serviced and how power was taken to each bench, control panels and so on and so forth. And I remember making him little paper lozenges so he could lay them out on this map to decide how these pieces of equipment were going to be laid out in the electronic centre. And then he started sending me out to where these centres were being built, in particular one at Leconfield, and I remember at one stage I went up to inspect this situation at Leconfield and, looking at the electrical layout, I said to the foreman who was there, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘There’s supposed to be a hole in this wall. There’s supposed to be window in this wall.’ ‘Not on my diagram.’ He said. So I said, ‘Well there’s supposed to be a window. It’s supposed to be this size and whatever, and it’s supposed to be double glazed for heat — for sound control and so on.’ Because the hydraulic generators were being tested in that room and this was where the test bench was observed, was observing it, but the hydraulic generators were noisy. They were to be powering the blue steel, um, equipment.
CB: The stand-off bomb.
BS: Yeah and — but why was that in Fighter Command? Anyway, never mind, um, that was, that was what was, it was the noise abatement thing — and, ‘Well,’ He said, ‘If there’s got to be a window if you draw it and sign it it’ll go in.’ So I drew it in. This was a Ministry of Defence document, plan, for this multimillion pound building and I’m drawing this, drawing this window in and signing it. ‘OK’. He said and it was done and it was incorporated in the other Fighter Command Control Centres. It was cheap tech. I didn’t have that authority but I gave the instruction and he was quite happy to take my signature.
CB: It was needed and you did it.
BS: It was needed and it was done. Nobody ever said anything.
CB: Then another thing you said you did was to do AOC pre- inspections?
BS: Yes, er, I did two or three of those and I’d be greeted at the guard room by a very, um, dutiful policeman. He’d say, ‘Oh good afternoon Chief and I’ll take across to the tech adj.’ Who would be a flight lieutenant and I’d go across to the tech adj with him and knock on the door and we’d, I’d walk into the tech adj’s office. ‘Come in chief. Sit down.’ We’d have a cup of tea, we’d have a cup of coffee. I thought this is not the kind of treatment I’d expect as a chief tech. Oh yes, I’d just come down from Fighter Command but it was just another posting to me but, yeah, I was treated like a man from out of space I suppose. It was really rather rewarding in a way.
CB: Sure. Job satisfaction is important.
BS: Absolutely.
CB: How long did that posting last?
BS: Well it wasn’t really a posting, it was only a detachment.
BS: Right.
BS: But I was there for two years so I stretched that out a bit but when that was coming towards the end I thought, ‘Well I don’t know what, I don’t know what I’m going to do.’ And an Air Commodore Avery or Avis, was the chief technical officer in Fighter Command and he came to visit our office one day and he sat down on the only available chair, in the middle of the office, with the two warrant officers, and squadron leader, and flight lieutenant and he sat with is front to the back of the chair and just talked to me and said well you know, ‘Tell me about your career chief or whatever.’ I said, ‘Well it’s coming to an end Sir.’ I said. ‘Well why don’t you sign on?’ So I said, ‘I applied to sign on but they wouldn’t have me.’ He said, ‘Well, why don’t you apply again?’ So the upshot of that was that I applied to sign on and of course as he was the supporting officer it got signed so I was accepted to sign on until I was fifty-five years old, um, so I didn’t really look back but then of course, um, I knew that detachment was going to come to an end and I thought I ought to be trying to guide my career somehow and the opportunity to — they were looking for volunteers to join the Education Branch. They were short of education officers but they needed the Higher National Certificate. I hadn’t got that but I thought, ‘Never mind, I’ll apply anyway.’ And rather to my surprise they accepted me and I went on a three month education course at Uxbridge, to the School of Education at Uxbridge. Wonderful course, um, three months, taught me the psychology of learning and, um, educational techniques and so on and so forth, um, and spent two years in the Education Branch, initially at RAF Melksham, which was another fascinating experience because my boss came to me at one point. He said, ‘Oh, I’ve got something different for you to do Chief.’ So I says, ‘What’s that?’ He said, ‘Well, we’ve got, we’ve got a class of people coming in to study inertial navigation systems.’ So I says, ‘What’s that?’ He said, ‘Well there’s a film on in the cinema.’ He said, ‘Go and watch it.’ He said, ‘That will show you what, what it’s all about.’ OK, so I went and watched this which was run by a by Mr L C Agger who wrote a book on electrics which was used for training at Halton for many years and Mr Agger put this film on for me and it was an American major describing this whole process of inertial navigation. I came out of there ‘cause he was talking with a broad American accent. Don’t ask me which State he came from but a broad American accent that I had great difficulty with. I thought, ‘Well, I don’t know. I don’t understand anything of that.’ So I actually mentioned it to Agger and he said, ‘Come and watch it again.’ And a lot more made sense this time and inertial navigation, in case don’t know it’s all about, it all depends on three gyroscopes, rate gyroscopes, which detect where you are and if there’s any movement at all in any direction the rate gyroscope detect it and tells you where to and how much by so you programme into this complex where you are and if you move it knows where you’ve gone and that was the principal, basic principle, of inertial navigation. It didn’t last for long because we use satellite navigation, yeah? GPS. So that’s what that was all about and I took two classes of Vulcan aircrew because they carried the blue steel bomb, not the blue streak, the blue steel bomb, stand-off bomb, and that was fitted with inertial navigation, um, so yeah, I took two classes of those and when my — when towards the end of that tour they were moving the education system from Melksham, training system at Melksham, up to, um, somewhere in Norfolk, I can’t think, the name won’t come to me at the moment, but they were moving the training out and the education officer said to me, ‘Well, we‘re not taking the substitute education officers (which is what I was) you’re reverting back to your trade.’ So I said, ‘Well I’d rather not Sir. I’d rather finish my tour with the Education Branch ‘cause I’m enjoying it.’ And he said, ‘Well, what can you suggest?’ And I said, ‘Well do you think they need anybody at Halton?’ ‘Oh that’s an idea.’ He said. ‘Come and see me in ten minutes.’ I went back to see him. He said, ‘Pack your bags you’re posted to Halton with effect from Monday.’ Same resp— so I came back to Halton as a lecturer, teaching electrics and electrical mechanics, to apprentices and, um, when that was coming to an end I went to see Squadron Leader Abraham who was my boss. And he said, ‘They’ll be looking for somebody over the road because they’re going to train ground electrician apprentices. They’ll want somebody.’ He said, ‘Go and see Squadron Leader Blot.’ Who was in charge of the Electrical Squadron, so I went to see Squadron Leader Blot and sat down and he started going through my career. ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘Where were you during this period?’ I said, ‘Oh, I was at Fighter Command.’ ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘What were you doing at Fighter Command?’ So I told him what I’ve already related. I said, ‘But I was also seconded as the Deputy to Squadron Leader Goldsmith, same name, who was in charge of the new Lightning squadron we just started when we were taking up Lightnings and I became his second dickie, or his telephone operator, if you like.’ And, er, he said, ‘Oh, you know John Goldsmith do you?’ So I said ‘Well, yeah.’ ‘How did you get on with him?’ ‘Well, alright.’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s alright.’ He said. He picked up the sheaf of notes he’d been writing about my career, tore it up and threw it in the waste paper basket. He said, ‘Right.’ He said, ‘You start, start next week.’ [laugh] So I started setting up the original basic training for the first ground electrician apprentices at Halton. End, end of episode.
CB: How long were you at Halton?
BS: [sound of shuffling papers] I need to look at my notes. Until the end of my career. No, not ‘till end of my career ‘cause I went up to, went up to Brampton after that. [background noise]
CB: You did actually do an unaccompanied tour.
BS: In Muharraq in, er, Bahrain.
CB: Where was that? When was that?
BS: In 1969 to ’70.
CB: And what were you doing there?
BS: That was basically just on ground equipment. I was in charge essentially of the battery charging rooms. I had two, I had two, um, Bahraini technicians working in that room and two RAF airman working in the battery charging room.
CB: It was a RAF station was it?
BS: The RAF, the RAF station yeah.
CB: Right.
BS: One of the RAF Hunter fighter squadrons was on that station at the time.
CB: Oh was it?
BS: But it was the airfield for Muharraq, um, so it was a fairly significant, um, middle-eastern destination.
CB: Right.
BS: And yes, as I say, I spent twelve months there.
CB: So fast forward to Halton. So you finished at Halton?
BS: Yeah and I came —
CB: After you did the ground electrical servicing course?
BS: Yes, at Halton, did the Muharraq trip and then, when I came back from, from Muharraq, I was posted to RAF Benson.
CB: Oh yes.
BS: On 90 group, um, Tactical Communications Wing, and spent about twelve months there I think and, er, didn’t quite know where my career as going from there, um, and decided to do something about it and there was, er, a request for people to join the Trade Testing, Trade Standards and Testing Board, which I applied for and was accepted and, and was posted back to Halton where the Trade Standards testing organisation had been established.
CB: Right.
BS: So I worked there for Trade Standard and Testing for a while, um, setting up well trade tests for electricians, essentially ground electricians.
CB: Right.
BS: And then they moved the Trade Standard and Testing thing to Bram— RAF Brampton, near Huntingdon and, of course, I moved up with them and, er, carried on the same kind of work with, um, various ranks of ground electrician training and then they wanted me to join, or asked me to join, the team, a team of technicians writing skill and knowledge specifications which were, um, oh, qualifications couched in behavioural terms, um, for all the trades in the Air Force and although I wrote some for ground electricians I also wrote some for musicians and for marine engineers, or helped to write them for those people, but yeah, all of them started off with a trained man can [?] and then went on to describe how you tested the activities that these people had to do, which was an interesting exercise, and that took me up to 1975 when I left the Royal Air Force.
CB: So you didn’t go to fifty five?
BS: I did not and the reason I didn’t go, of course, was because, um, I felt sure at the age of fifty-five I wouldn’t be able to get a job outside anyway and I wasn’t going to get promoted beyond Chief Technician anyway, probably because I needed a haircut.
BT: No doubt at all.
CB: You never learned the lesson then.
BT: No, no. He doesn’t know what the inside of a hair dressers looks like.
CB: Right, so what happened then?
BS: Well —
CB: So 1975 comes —
BS: Well, 1974-ish they had been looking for people to volunteer for early retirement, for redundancies in certain groups and trade groups and age categories and ranks and I was looking for one of these so I could get out before I was fifty-five so I could get employment outside and in 1974, my birthday, my trade and rank came up as being eligible so I applied to leave and they let me go, um, so I got a reasonable redundancy return and left, as I say, in 1975.
CB: OK.
BS: Right.
CB: Then what did you do?
BS: Went — I was on the dole for six months on, er, previous age related unemployment benefit, um, doing odd jobs, odd little bits for people, bit of decorating here and bit of electrics there and applying for jobs around Aylesbury, in particular. I went, um, for one job was a training consultant with the Ministry — which branch of the Ministry I can’t tell you at this stage, um, but I didn’t get that job. I went for a job at — over at Haddenham, on the airfield there, and I was too well qualified for one job that they’d got and under qualified for another job they’d got so they hadn’t got anything to offer me. So I’m scratching around a bit ‘cos I was coming to the end of my six months and I had applied to go back to Halton as an instructor and I got eventually an interview and I went back to Halton for the interview and I got the job as a civilian instructor at Halton, and I went back actually teaching apprentices, whose a course I’d previously helped to organise, and, er, went back as I say training ground electricians as a civilian, yeah, and then they were going to move that training, the ground electricians, to RAF St Athan. I thought I don’t need to go there and they said, ‘Well, alright you can stay here but you’ll have to train, train aircraft electricians.’ I thought I don’t really want to go down that learning curve because there was some very complicated equipment on aeroplanes by that time and I thought, ‘Well, no I don’t want to go to St Athan.’ So I was struggling a bit and I spoke to my friend Mr Ken Hewer [?] and he said, ‘Well, why don’t you apply for a job at Southall Technical College.’ Where he worked. So I did and after an interview, which I spent a fair time talking about myself, I was invited to accept the job at Southall, and I worked there until I was made redundant from their aircraft department at Southall Tech and then retired and lived in the lap of luxury ever since.
CB: How old were you when you retired, aged sixty-five?
BS: No, I was only fifty— only fifty-five, fifty-six? Let me think. When did I actually retire? I don’t know whether I’ve got that down here. [sound of shuffling papers] [pause]
CB: You reckon you finished early, did you?
BS: ’85, ‘85 so I’d have been fifty-six? Yeah?
CB: You were at Southall you were teaching?
BS: Aircraft technicians from British Airways.
CB: Oh right.
BS: And some of Colonel Gadhafi’s Air Force and civilian airline personnel too.
CB: Right. So retired in ‘85.
BS: A little bit more meat on the bones in there.
CB: Just one final thing. What was the most memorable thing about your experience in the RAF would you think?
BS: ‘Struth. In some respects I think my tour of Malta from ‘52 to ‘54 but then that two years at Fighter Command Headquarters was an eye opener and a wonderful experience, you know, so looking back for favourites is really rather difficult because I had a thoroughly enjoyable thirty years really. Very few grey or black spots.
CB: Ok. Good. Well I really think we ought to stop it there.
BS: Well, I think we ought to.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Barry Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithBM170118
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:32:59 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Bahrain--Muḥarraq
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--London
Bahrain
Bahrain--Muḥarraq
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02
1948
1975
Description
An account of the resource
Barry passed the RAF’s apprentice entrance examination in February 1945, aged 15, and went to RAF Halton to become an electrician. He discusses the three training which resulted in the First Ordinary National Certificate.
In 1948, Barry was posted to RAF St Athan No. 32 Maintenance Unit. He initially serviced a flight simulator, then moved to the Aircraft Electrical Servicing Squadron. After a year, he was posted to RAF Cranwell, servicing generators and was promoted to corporal. He passed his leading aircraftman examination. He spent two years in Malta before being posted to RAF Honington, where he became a sergeant.
Barry wanted to service flight simulators, did a course and was posted for two years to Fighter Command at Bentley Priory. He had a broad role in aircraft engineering at Command Headquarters.
Barry moved to become an education officer and did a course at the School of Education at RAF Uxbridge. He spent two years in the education branch, initially at RAF Melksham. He was then posted to RAF Halton to teach electrics and electrical mechanics before setting up the basic training for the first ground electrician apprenticeships.
Barry undertook an unaccompanied 12-month tour to RAF Muharraq (Bahrain) and was in charge of the battery charging room. A further twelve months were spent at RAF Benson on 90 Group Tactical Communication Wing before returning to RAF Halton to join the Trade Standards and Testing Board. This moved to RAF Brompton where he wrote skills and knowledge specifications for RAF trades. Barry left the RAF in 1975 and continued in teaching and training roles.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
childhood in wartime
displaced person
ground personnel
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Bentley Priory
RAF Cranwell
RAF Halton
RAF Honington
RAF St Athan
shelter
training