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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46468/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v340002.mp3
f2c1729c9aeb5bb3652ca91660760c09
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Title
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
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Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr John Langston at Thorpe Camp on the 12th of November 2011 discussing his wartime experiences from February ’44 to the end of the war and the three squadrons 630, 189 and 617 Squadrons that he toured in at that time. Mr Langston.
JL: Ah. Well, I joined the Air Force direct from school and I got a university short course at Oxford and did my initial training in the Air Squadron at Oxford and I was finally in the service at the end of 1942. And from there I went across to Canada for training as a navigator and, in Winnipeg and I’d been in Winnipeg in the school at Winnipeg, 5 Air Observer School for about a couple of months and this was in [pause] maybe four or five months. This was in 1943 and we were, this was a Canadian Observer’s School. We were called out of our classrooms one day and asked to form three sides of a hollow square and we waited there and up taxied a little twin engine aeroplane and out of it got Guy Gibson and he proceeded to talk to us and he was doing a, he’d been brought over to the states to see Mr Roosevelt by Churchill and then sent on this pep talk tour of the Canadian training stations.
Interviewer: Just after the dam raid obviously.
JL: Yeah. Immediately afterwards.
Interviewer: Yes.
JL: And he’d been presented to Congress and every, everybody was very pleased with him. So anyway, he got up and he told us all about the dams. Well, talked to us briefly about the dams raid and then he gave us a pep talk saying obviously we were all going to Bomber Command and weren’t we lucky [laughs] And I remember the fellow that was stood beside me said, ‘I don’t like the sound of that at all.’ However, I got back to the UK in October and had a couple of weeks at home and I was then sent off to Scotland for a familiarisation course because then you had to learn to fly again in the blackout and with wartime codes and things in a war zone. And I’d been in West Freugh in Scotland for about I don’t know maybe three or four weeks and I was called into the office to see the chief instructor and I’d wondered what I’d done. And I hadn’t done anything. He said, ‘Langston,’ he said, ‘There’s a new scheme that 5 Group in Bomber Command are instituting and they need some spare navigators on tap and they’ve asked us to pick out a few and send them down to them and they’ll train you themselves. And so we’ve decided to send you.’ And all I’d done was these few trips around the islands. Anyway, so two months later I found myself on a Stirling Heavy Conversion Unit at Swinderby and then at Winthorpe where I was trained by the station navigation officer on a one to one basis and at the end of three or four months I was deemed to be ready for combat and so then I had to wait around for three or four weeks whilst I got a crew and in due course a crew that had lost a navigator got me. And so we did a, we did a couple of trips together and they liked me and I liked them and we were posted to 630 Squadron at East Kirkby where we arrived just after D-Day and we immediately went to war then. So that’s how I got into Bomber Command and we were immediately doing back up raids so that either in support of ground force troops landing on the beaches in Normandy or else at that time the buzz bomb targets had opened up in the Pas de Calais and we were diverted there. So we were our first seven or eight or nine trips were daylight raids in main force just bombing either the buzz bomb sites or alternatively troop emplacements behind the invasion forces.
Interviewer: Were you involved with the transport plane?
JL: What?
Interviewer: The transport.
JL: Well, no. We were bombing German troops in the front line.
Interviewer: Right.
JL: Tanks and wherever the targets appeared.
Interviewer: Right.
JL: And we were bombing on marked targets which had been marked with pyrotechnics by, by, well the various agencies for doing that as some by marker shells laid down by the ground forces themselves and others by the Pathfinders going in and singling out the targets. Anyway, that went by and after we’d done eight or nine trips like that, ten trips maybe we were then, being in 5 Group diverted back on to the main, main force targets in Germany itself and from there on it was almost exclusively night raids into Germany. We went to Nuremberg twice, we went to Munich twice, we went to Stuttgart twice. We went to Darmstadt two or three times. We went, we were doing back up raids in the far end of the Baltic, Koenigsberg in support of the Russian ground forces. It was all very busy.
Interviewer: Yes.
JL: And, and my pilot, I’m a navigator and my pilot was a flying officer. He was a very keen young man. We were a good crew and, and all of a sudden after we’d done twenty odd trips he was told that from a flying officer he was going to be made an acting squadron leader and we went off and joined 189 Squadron in Fulbeck. And because of the loss rates of that time we were, we were rationed to one trip every three weeks and, but I used to fly with the squadron commander too so that gave me a bit more to do. And so we finished our tour just about the end of the year and we were doing long distance trips all the way. I mean our last trip was a place called Politz which was an oil refinery up on the Baltic. And so we finished our tour and the following morning my pilot who was really keen to keep his acting rank, I think he liked the pay [laughs] came out and found, found me and my bomb aimer. I was on the bomb aimer pillion of his, on my bomb aimer’s motorbike and he said, ‘Come here you two.’ And so we taxied over and he said, ‘Guess what?’ And my bomb aimer said, ‘What?’ And he said, he said, ‘I’ve just had a phone call from, from Wing Commander Willie Tait on 617 Squadron and he’d like us to come and join him.’ And my bomb aimer looked at him and he said, ‘F off.’ [laughs] So anyway, we got the crew together and we packed our bags and the next day having been in the squalor of Nissen huts at Fulbeck we found ourselves in the luxury of the Petwood Hotel in Woodhall Spa. And that’s how I got on 617.
Interviewer: Right.
JL: So then then 617 of course made its name, its reputation on its training so we immediately had to learn how to use this new automatic bomb site that 617 used and we were on the training bombing ranges in the Wash and up at Theddlethorpe and places up on the coast. After oh maybe a couple of weeks we were qualified combat ready on 617. And there we went off and we, in those days Barnes Wallis’ Tallboy bomb, the smaller streamlined bomb, the deep penetration weapon the Tallboy which was a twelve thousand pounder. We did several raids dropping those. Then all of a sudden to our surprise as the Grand Slam arrived, the twenty two thousand pounder and we dropped several of those.
Interviewer: It must have been —
JL: So that was my war.
Interviewer: The difference in the, the twenty two thousand, the Grand Slam and the Tallboy I believe when the, the Grand Slam was released the aircraft obviously used to shoot up.
JL: Well, the thing was that the bomb was very heavy and, and the wings actually used to actually bend up like a seagull’s wings you know as you flew. And the aeroplane itself wasn’t all that much heavier because they, to start with they, they strengthened, they had to take the bomb doors off because the bomb was wider than the fuselage. So the bomb was slung on a, in a cradle outside the aeroplane. Outside the fuselage. When the, as the plane lifted off, well I should explain that they took all the ammunition out of the aeroplane. We flew with a fighter escort. We, they took out the mid-upper turret. They took out the nose turret, they took out all the radar equipment and we had a very basic navigation fit inside and the rear turret had a man in it to have someone looking out the back really and I think his, they took out two of the guns and so there wasn’t much weight in the back either.
Interviewer: Didn’t they take the wireless operator out as well on some of them?
JL: No. We didn’t have a wireless operator.
Interviewer: No.
JL: Not in the, in the Grand Slam aeroplanes.
Interviewer: No.
JL: Because that was, that was all weight.
Interviewer: All that extra weight.
JL: What we did have was three little VHS sets. One for the bomber frequency, one for the fighter frequency which was our escort from on top and and a spare set I suppose for air traffic control, you see. And so we were very, we were pretty light and we only flew with two thirds full tanks and we, and our, all that weight on take-off was the Grand Slam bomb. It was only a five or six thousand pounds greater than the all out weight of a fully armed normal Lancaster on Main Force.
Interviewer: I see.
JL: So, but anyway, the extra weight was sufficient to—
Interviewer: Right.
JL: Lift up the tips of the wings by eight or ten inches and we could see the curve. Once the bomb had gone the wings went back into the normal position and the whole of the aeroplane did a little leap. But anyway, there was a new bombsight. The great thing about the Grand Slam was it was a development of the Tallboy. It developed, it penetrated deep into the ground on your targets. You didn’t really have to be precisely on the target but we had to have a bombing accuracy on the ranges of eighty yards from the, eighteen to twenty thousand feet which was quite achievable with this bombsight we had. And really it’s only, you only took one or two bombs on the target. It used to penetrate sixty to a hundred feet into the ground where it left a cavity and the target collapsed into the hole. That was Barnes Wallis’ great big secret. And so —
Interviewer: Where were the places that you were bombing?
JL: Well, by this time the war was developing and there was a front line that had gone up through Holland and very close to Germany but the Germans were desperate for fuel and so we were interdicting all the railway bridges that were bringing fuel up to the front line. And with the Grand Slam one bomb took out a bridge by and large and so we these were all on the Weser from leading up to the Brunswick. There were a whole series of —
Interviewer: Right.
JL: Not Brunswick. I can’t —
Interviewer: Bielefeld.
JL: No.
Interviewer: Viaduct.
JL: No. Well, Bielefeld viaduct.
Interviewer: Yes.
JL: Was one of the series of targets.
Interviewer: Yes.
JL: But there were five bridges over the river there and we, we had attacked them all in time. One or two bombs at a time and and they were all dropped down and it was a major contribution to winning the final stages of the war.
Interviewer: Absolutely. Yes.
JL: The bombs were in very difficult to make and they were in very short supply and after the third bridge had been sunk we and another crew put on our best uniforms, got into a bus at Woodhall Spa and were driven over to Sheffield to the English Steel Corporation where they made these bombs and it was very illuminating. We, we were met by the board of directors and taken into the casting room and this was a huge room perhaps about thirty or forty feet high. It was dome shaped and the bomb was the cast of the sand mould for the bomb was on the end and the crucible full of molten steel was being poured in. So we watched this for a while and we were duly impressed but what was more impressive was that all around this casting room about, oh I don’t know twenty feet off the ground there was a whole series of Russian flags. Huge flags as big as double bed sheets with the red hammer and sickle and in the centre was a plain white sheet the same size with a great big sign saying, “God Bless Uncle Joe.” And this was my first introduction to the politics of South Yorkshire [laughs] And so anyway, so we were quite impressed and we went into the next room where there was one bomb had cooled and it was on its side and there were two little men there. Little men. I mean smaller than jockeys and they’d got a pneumatic hammer and a flashlight, a torch and they were fed into the back end of the cold bomb casing and they had to, with the torch hand it around to see if there were any imperfections in the cast and hammer it smooth so there was an even explosion. And so this first chap was inside hammering away and they could take it for about thirty seconds, no more and they’d pull them out by their heels from the back end of the bomb and this chap came out. He stood in front of me shaking and so I took out a pack of cigarettes and gave him a fag and lit it and he looked at me and he said, ‘What do you do?’ And I said, ‘I drop them.’ And he thought for a second, had another drag and he said, ‘What do they pay you?’ I said, ‘Fourteen shillings and six pence a day.’ He said, ‘You’re a fool.’ He said, ‘I get ten quid a week for this.’ Anyway, very good. Lots of people heard this and the squadron lived on that story for a, ever since really. So anyway, we then did a few other long range trips. We sank the Lützow. Not the Tirpitz but the Tirpitz had already been sunk. We sank the Lützow up in the Baltic. We took out a whole lot of U-boat pens and things and finally we took out the guns on Heligoland and opened up the whole of the Channel into the Hamburg and the, and the Elbe. There were a whole crowd of ships waiting to go in. And then came the end of the war so that was the end of my story.
Interviewer: Well, it’s been absolutely fascinating. Thank you very much Mr Langston.
JL: Ok.
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Title
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Interview with John Langston
1041-Langston, John
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v34
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Royal Air Force
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eng
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Sound
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00:17:37 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary. Allocated C Campbell
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v340002
Creator
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Claire Bennett
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Date
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2011-11-12
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
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John Langston flew operations as a navigator with 630, 189 and 617 Squadrons.
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
189 Squadron
617 Squadron
630 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Grand Slam
navigator
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46440/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v090002.mp3
8598a787d9cade4d126b750d930ea0c2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr Richard Moore at his home in Lincoln talking about his wartime career as ground crew in the Lincoln area.
RM: Ok. We’ll go from there. Well, I joined up when I was eighteen and my first port of call was Weston Super Mare which as you know is not very far from home and I did six weeks square bashing there. We lived in private houses and we were well looked after. When that six weeks was up I was posted to Locking which is just outside of Weston and I was there for seven months learning my course. After we passed out, some of us passed out, some didn’t and my first squadron was Squires Gate at Blackpool. Boulton Paul Defiants they were. Something new to the Germans because not only did they have a pilot they had a mid-upper turret as well, a gunner so it could fire front and back. But Jerry soon got, soon got wise to it. A very clever race the Germans. I went on leave and when I came back we’d moved to Woodvale in Southport and those planes were call Beaufighters. They were twin engine light bomber. And one day our chief came to us and said, ‘I’ve got to post six of you to a place called Swinderby.’ Oh, we were going to Sicily. The squadron was going to Sicily. I said, ‘Well, I know where Sicily is but where’s Swinderby?’ He said, ‘I believe it’s in Lincolnshire.’ ‘Alright,’ I said, ‘I’ll be one to go to Swinderby then.’ Good job I did. They took a pasting in Sicily. And we get to Swinderby and it was, ‘Oh, we don’t want you here. You’ve got to go to Wigsley.’ So we go to Wigsley. ‘Oh, we don’t want you here.’ Back to Swinderby. In the end, in the finish we were at Wigsley and we were working with AV Roe men doing crossed aircraft and our chiefy turns up and says, ‘Drop everything. Get all your toolboxes and kit. We’ve got a bit of a job on.’ He didn’t say where but he took us back to Scampton and I see these Lancs. There was one in a hangar. No bomb doors just two arms down you see. I thought these are queer Lancasters.
Interviewer: This would be early 1943.
RM: Yes. Yes. And so, a chap and I worked all night on one of them. God, it was damned cold in that hangar. It was in May, wasn’t it? It was May time and all of them had been flying low over the water and all the plates underneath towards the rear gunner were all mashed in. We had to change all them. And I lived in Saxilby at the time. I could live out because my wife in Saxilby and I wasn’t far away and as I was cycling down Tillbridge Lane they were taking off on this raid. Didn’t know anything about it. I know the chap’s dog had got killed. Nigger. It was killed the day before they went and Gibson said, ‘Bury it at 12 o’clock. That’s when we’ll be over the target.’
Interviewer: Did you see anything of Guy Gibson or —
RM: Oh, I saw him in the distance. I’ve met Micky Martin.
Interviewer: Oh yes.
RM: He was a nice bloke. Australian he was. He was a good pilot. So and off I went home and the next day we knew all about it.
Interviewer: So you saw these aircraft obviously different to the normal Lancasters.
RM: There were no bomb doors you see.
Interviewer: Did you wonder what was, you know happening?
RM: No. Nobody said anything. I said, ‘Well their just two arms now. Then we realised it was for the swimming, the swimming bomb you see. Yeah. And we lost what seven did we? Or was their eight I think we lost.
Interviewer: Yes. It was eight. Yes.
RM: Fifty six men. And Martin and Gibson, they kept flying each side of the dam to give the other chaps to get in and draw the flak off. But it took the last bomber to break the dam.
Interviewer: That’s right. Les Knight.
RM: And then they went to the other one but they couldn’t get to the third one. That was impossible I think. They’d run out of time. Yes, it was quite a great occasion. But as I say within a few days we were off. We went to Bardney.
Interviewer: How many of you were there working on the —
RM: Well, there would be about maybe a group of us. About fourteen I should think because there was fitters, engine men, riggers. There were air frames, wireless operators, electricians and what else did we have? We wouldn’t have the bomb people because people, special people put the bombs on the planes. But you know —
Interviewer: Did you actually see the bombs that were going to be put on these?
RM: No. I did not see them.
Interviewer: They were all —
RM: No. Because once we finished at night we went to bed. Us two, then the rest took over in the morning. And then they said, ‘You can’t go out of camp.’ And I wanted to go home you see. Anyway, they let me out. I got on my bike and I said I was going down Tillbridge Lane as they were taking off. A wonderful sight.
Interviewer: Three of them together in waves weren’t there?
RM: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. A bit of a noise but it was great.
Interviewer: And you saw the bombs. The different bombs.
RM: No.
Interviewer: Rather than the —
RM: Yes.
Interviewer: The usual. Hanging below —
RM: That’s right.
Interviewer: Below the –
RM: These sort of bombs and then of course the next thing was the Tallboys. weren’t they?
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: Terrific they were sized. Yeah, so when I came back the next day he said. ‘We’re off again.’ So we went to Bardney. M for Mother had crashed and we wanted to get it up in the air again.
Interviewer: So you were repairing the crashed aircraft.
RM: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: And getting them ready for —
RM: Yeah.
Interviewer: Flying again.
RM: That’s right. Got them in the air because we were losing a lot of planes you see.
Interviewer: Right.
RM: And also, when a plane had done a big, we had to do a major inspection on them and when they had done so many flying hours just to make sure they were alright for because I mean it’s like a car isn’t it you do so many miles and you have an MOT or whatever they call it. And so we worked on M for Mother. First night on ops she never came back.
Interviewer: Oh dear.
RM: That was a bad job that was. Then blimey the lorry rolls up again. ‘Come on. Get in.’ Syerston in Nottingham. Just at the border that was and we had twelve major inspections to do on Lancs there. And after that then we were disbanded because the war was nearly over.
Interviewer: Right.
RM: So, 5 Group, Bomber Command was disbanded and we ended up, some of us on a BABs flight testing this new radar on a Oxford, Airspeed Oxfords two engine planes. Sent down somewhere in the south. I can’t tell you the name of the place and I met Micky Martin. We had a good old chat about the old days and —
Interviewer: Did he talk about the Dams raid?
RM: Yeah. He didn’t say a lot. He just, you know sort of, ‘Lucky to be alive,’ sort of thing. But he was a good pilot.
Interviewer: He was a bit on the eccentric side, wasn’t he?
RM: Oh yes. Yes. He didn’t say a lot I don’t think. But Australians are either or. You know. Got plenty to say for themselves.
Interviewer: They usually have. Yes.
RM: But yes. It was, it was good years. We, oh we went off. We went, before that I missed something out. We went to East Kirkby to do some jobs there and as our bombers came into land one, early one morning the German fighters followed them in and shot the camp up. There were cannon shells all over the place. We were diving for cover everywhere. One poor WAAF got killed.
Interviewer: Oh dear.
RM: But I don’t know what was the matter with our radar to let the Jerries get in so close to our bombers as they were landing. And there was one took off one night when they were going on a raid and it blew up. Went down the runway and the only man who survived was the rear gunner. He was blown out so he survived. He was lucky. I don’t know why it blew up like that.
Interviewer: No. What were your feelings during this time? I mean, did you, did you realise you know the important job you were doing?
RM: Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: And —
RM: It was a really worthwhile job. I mean I know we were only ground crew but they couldn’t have done without us could they?
Interviewer: Couldn’t have got off the ground without you.
RM: No.
Interviewer: Literally.
RM: I mean sometimes we had to refuel the planes you know. It was good.
Interviewer: And it was good camaraderie between you.
RM: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: You all.
RM: Oh yes. We never —
Interviewer: Did you get to know many of the aircrew?
RM: Not a lot. No. Because I mean I didn’t [pause] when we did an inspection every morning, you’d do a DI every morning on the planes, a Daily Inspection in other words that was about all you saw of them. It was you know the only time perhaps you saw them, when they got an eye on you and you pulled the chocs away. That was it you know. They didn’t sort of mix a lot with ground crew.
Interviewer: No. Did you, you worked on Lancasters?
RM: Oh, I started off as I told you on Boulton Paul Defiants.
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: Beaufighters.
Interviewer: Manchesters.
RM: Yes, I —
Interviewer: Did you work on those?
RM: To be honest, yeah. I flew a Manchester.
Interviewer: Oh really.
RM: Not very far mind you.
Interviewer: No. No. I think —
RM: I was —
Interviewer: That was the trouble with them.
RM: We were at Swinderby and I went up with this pilot and he said, ‘Would you like to fly it?’ I said, ‘Oh, I don’t know.’ He said, ‘Go on. Take the controls but I’ll keep my feet on the rudders. But don’t turn it left or that way or we’ll flip over and we’ll be gonners.’ I didn’t do it for long but it was, it was an experience.
Interviewer: How fantastic.
RM: Yeah.
Interviewer: They were.
RM: Oh, those engines were too big for those planes. Vulcan engines. I knew one crossed up near the tree in Saxilby village one day. My misses said, ‘I thought you might have been on that.’ I said, ‘No. I wasn’t.’ But she did play hell with me one day because when we were at, when I was at Swinderby before all this we [pause] I was picked to go with this group we had a little section as you turn off the Newark Road to go to Swinderby camp there’s a bit of a corner of a field. We had a little section in there we had a Spitfire in. We were working on an Halifax bomber and all that sort of thing and one day chiefy said, ‘I want a rigger and an engine man to go down to the Percival Gull works in Luton. I said, ‘Oh, I’ll go.’ Daft like. And my friend, a chap called Saul he said, ‘I’ll go as well.’ So we gets on this Airspeed Oxford and off we set off and we were going over London and nearly run into a barrage balloon because we were flying into the sun. He saw it at the last minute and we got down there. Landed in a field and came back safely. When I told her about it she went bananas. She said, ‘You stupid idiot.’ Sort of thing. ‘Because you have a daughter,’ she said, ‘Remember.’ I said, ‘Well, there you are.’
Interviewer: You’re here to tell the tale anyway.
RM: Yeah. Yes. And then as I say we got on this radar business at [unclear] and then well we kept flying different places. Dakotas we used a lot to fly about in. And then we went down to St Mawgan in Newquay and worked a bit on there. Different planes because a lot of them were obsolete then, weren’t they? The Wellington and the Hampden and the Stirling they’d all got, well they weren’t much cop really were they? To be honest. They did their job but they were very vulnerable.
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: Especially the Wellington because it was only fabric. And I was going to be a flight engineer but my wife said, ‘No, you’re not.’ Because they used to get their head shot off you know, the poor old flight engineers because they stood beside the pilot watching all the dials.
Interviewer: That’s right.
RM: So I didn’t do that. I said, ‘Well, I survived the war so I should have been alright.’ Anyway, as I said as we went down and we stayed down at Newquay for a bit at St Mawgan and then they come to me one day and said, ‘You’re going to Leconfield.’ I said, ‘Leconfield? Where’s that?’ he said, ‘In Yorkshire.’ I said, ‘That’s a hell of a long way to go to be demobbed.’ I was going to get demobbed you see and so I get to Leconfield and we stopped there working on Wellingtons of all things. And then a load of RAF, these young ATC cadets turned up and were going for a flight on one of these Wellies. That crashed.
Interviewer: Oh dear.
RM: Terrible. Lost. Lost all these kids. Just couldn’t understand it because I mean they were, we all thought they were in tip top condition. Anyway, I got on a charge there because what was he called? He was a mad man our engineering officer. He came around and he found some water on the bed in the, in the Wellington and he asked me, ‘Why didn’t you see that?’ I said, ‘Well, it wasn’t there when I did the DI.’ But he wouldn’t have it so he put me on a charge.
Interviewer: And what was the outcome of that?
RM: Oh, I got seven days, I think. Confined to barracks. That’s all.
Interviewer: Right.
RM: Nothing, it wasn’t serious.
Interviewer: And what, what had been the problem?
RM: Well, there was —
Interviewer: Did you find out? Was there a leak.
RM: Well, there was a hatch.
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: There was a leak and it must have rained or something and dropped through on to the bed.
Interviewer: Right.
RM: Because it wasn’t there when I did it or I’d have mopped it up. But these things happen, don’t they?
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: Got to find a scapegoat you know for some, some of these jobs. Yes. So when I was at Leconfield and then we were on the bus next morning to Uxbridge getting your demob suit and then home.
Interviewer: Right.
RM: My daughter didn’t, didn’t want nothing to do with me. Didn’t know who I was.
Interviewer: What do you feel about your war years?
RM: Very good. Very good. A lot of camaraderie. Whatever you call that word. Camaraderie is it? I can’t remember.
Interviewer: Camaraderie.
RM: That’s the word. Yeah. Yes. Everybody looking our for each other. That was one thing about it. And the NAAFI were good. They came around every morning. Tea and a wad you know. Great.
Interviewer: You didn’t get a chance to have a flight in a Lancaster.
RM: No.
Interviewer: No. Would you have liked one?
RM: Yes. I could have done but I don’t know why I turned it down. I don’t know why. And I wish I had now. I missed that. You never know. I might get a chance.
Interviewer: Yes, indeed.
RM: Go to Coningsby and say, ‘I want to come up with you, mate.’ Yeah. So there we are. But very good years. Good crowd. I don’t think we had many troublemakers you know. You do get some but not a lot. I only ended up LAC so I was nothing. Leading aircraftsman. That’s all. I didn’t get my stripes.
Interviewer: Well, you were doing a wonderful job like all the ground crew.
RM: Yeah. All these different aircraft. I can’t believe how they started from a Boulton Paul Defiant and ended up on a Lancaster. The Halifax wasn’t a bad bomber either.
Interviewer: No.
RM: That was quite good. The Halifax.
Interviewer: I think each crew was very fond of its own aircraft.
RM: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Anybody who flew in the Halifax.
RM: With this Just Jane. Who was that? Which was that? Was that a Lancaster?
Interviewer: That’s a Lancaster.
RM: Yeah.
Interviewer: That’s the Lanc well it’s a Lancaster that’s at —
RM: Coningsby.
Interviewer: East Kirkby now.
RM: East Kirkby. That goes up and down.
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: Up and down the runways.
Interviewer: That’s right.
RM: You can taxi in it. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
RM: Well that that did a lot of raids didn’t it? A lot of raids, Just Jane, I think. They’ve all got their bombs on the side of the cockpit.
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes.
RM: Yeah. Happy days. But really. Was it worthwhile?
Interviewer: I think, I think we’ve got to think that it was.
RM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: We don’t want to think that fifty five thousand lost.
RM: Men plus.
Interviewer: Died for nothing. I mean.
RM: No. That’s what I think. Sometimes I wonder was it worth it and then I think well we had to keep them away, didn’t we?
Interviewer: We did indeed. Yes.
RM: We were alone, weren’t we? I mean the Americans wouldn’t have come into it if it hadn’t been for Pearl Harbour.
Interviewer: No. No.
RM: They were selling fuel to the Japs. Then the Japs go and bomb Pearl Harbour just to say thank you. Oh dear. Oh dear. I don’t know. It’s [pause] I don’t know what to make of this. What’s going to happen, do you?
Interviewer: I don’t. It’s been absolutely fascinating, Mr Moore.
RM: Was that alright?
Interviewer: That’s fine.
RM: That’s about as much as I can tell you.
Interviewer: Yes, that’s —
RM: There’s bits I’ve missed out because I lost my memory a bit you know.
Interviewer: No, it’s been really interesting. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Richard Moore
1004-Moore, Richard
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v09
Creator
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Claire Bennett
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:16:49 audio recording
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary. Allocated C Campbell
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Somerset
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Moore served as ground crew at RAF Locking, RAF Squires Gate and RAF Wickenby.
Beaufighter
crash
Defiant
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Leconfield
RAF Locking
RAF Swinderby
RAF Wickenby
strafing
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2048/33184/AMcCulloughF210621.1.mp3
d8b712349412abcb5c40a9cda95fb48e
Dublin Core
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Title
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McCullough, Fred
F McCullough
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history with Fred McCullough about his uncle, Sergeant Henry McCullough (645957, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 61 Squadron and was killed 9 March 1943. <br /><br />The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. <br /><br />Additional information on Henry MucCullough is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/115432/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2021-06-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McCullough, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DE: Ok. So that’s recording. So, this is an interview with Fred McCullough about his Uncle Harry or Henry. Sergeant Harry McCullough. He was a flight engineer with 61 Squadron. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It’s taking place over the telephone. Fred is in Tasmania and the time is sometime just after 6pm and I’m in the UK and it’s sometime just after 9am. So, Fred, thanks very much for agreeing to do this. This telephone interview. Obviously, your uncle died before you were born. How did your family remember him and what’s your experiences of his memory when you were growing up?
FM: Well, his name was just brought up obviously from time to time in my early years living in Belfast. You know. From my father mainly. He obviously, he was killed three years, I was born in 1946 so I never did meet him. My elder, my older brother had vague memories of him but mine are, mine are all from photographs and sort of family stories basically. And it wasn’t until later years, I mean as a young lad there was a lot of, a lot of our family were involved with various aspects of the military during the Second World War. My father was in the 8th Army. He was in the [unclear] campaign and the Italian campaign. My Uncle Harry who was killed, his younger brother, younger brother Joe also was in the RAF and had, he was taken prisoner in in Greece, just north of Athens for quite a while and so a few stories and then he was released and we have back in Northern Ireland. So a few stories from my father and his brother basically that I know of the background of my Uncle Harry really. And its probably not until my later years, when you’re a bit older you sort of start really taking all this stuff in. So it’s not really until probably when I was in my fifties and then I was married with children my father and mother came visiting quite a few times from Northern Ireland to Tasmania. And it’s not until you’re a little bit older that you start to take a bit of interest in your family history and where you’re from. Also, I had taken a lot of interest in more local history. I worked for a while at the Queen Victoria Museum and Art Gallery here at [unclear] and started to learn, take on board more about your surroundings and the people that led to where we are now. So that’s probably how I came to be interested in the first place. My father brought his logbook out and gave it to me in the late 1990s. I want to say something like logbook. That makes it a sort of concrete bit of documentation as opposed to just a story but it was from then on that I took a more personal interest.
[recording interrupted]
FM: We were lucky that the logbook actually was on a whole passed from my grandfather to my, to the eldest brother in the family. My father was one of four boys and two girls. Harry, who was the second eldest. An older one again and he had, he had all our family logbooks and history and medals and all that sort of stuff. So, I don’t know why it came in my direction because as I say have an older brother. He lives in [unclear] in the South of Ireland but for some reason they decided maybe it was because of my artwork and [unclear] with family history but his medals were given to me. I have them here beside me hanging up on the wall in fact with his photograph and so through that sort of thing my father bringing those out to Australia and giving them to me was what sort of triggered my interest in the background. There had been different pieces prior to that. And then I suppose I started looking at the logbook and just starting random pieces of work based on, on the information in the logbook that was operating to Essen [unclear] and so on. So I just took a random one and started doing that and after a while it became largely because I did the series from, it was in his tenth operation as you know that he was killed.
DE: Yeah.
FM: So it just seemed logical that I, from that sequence I did an introductory painting called, “Above and beyond,” and it was all to do with, the paintings are quite abstract in, visually with perhaps [unclear] relating to the contents on the back. But interestingly these paintings, and I did ten paintings on his logbook and then I did a conclusion painting which was based on Fürstenfeldbruck which is where he was shot down north of Munich and [unclear] a photograph of his first burial site, the cross etcetera. Him and the crew.
DE: Yeah.
FM: So, I did sort of contain the [unclear] twelve paintings in all and I have that series here at my home in Glengarry. I’ve used it a number of times. Particularly at an exhibition in Hobart back in 2015 as a lead-in. But in 2009 I put, I reproduced [unclear] on canvas [unclear] and added more information from the logbook of aircrew names etcetera and dates and flight times and that’s what I took to Belfast in the Waterfront Hall in Belfast and all those things that are now in East Kirkby next to Lancaster, “Just Jane.” The Belfast was significant in that my father and his family all grew up in the very centre of the city. My grandfather was a fireman.
DE: Yeah.
FM: All the family lived there from the early days in the fire station. That was prior to him joining the Army and therefore [unclear] where they were living. So his family had a big association with the fire brigade and just coincidentally on the Waterfront Hall where I exhibited is just across, literally a hundred and fifty, two hundred metres across the road [unclear] building in the centre of Belfast from where they lived. So that made it quite appropriate. Yeah. So that, that’s as far as that first series goes. I, after I’d displayed those paintings I also then and the coincidence of where all these events took place and my wife and I travelled from Australia. I’m to Ireland virtually every year right up until my father died in 2003. My mother lived until 2011 so I would go home every year for a number of weeks to look, just to check on her and on the way my wife if she was with me rented a van unit and travelled [unclear] stayed there and cycled out to find Durnbach War Cemetery and you know obviously had a look where the whole crew are buried.
DE: Yeah.
FM: Which was quite a fantastic location. When I got there they were actually renovating. They were actually landscaping over landscaping and they had actually closed that one section of the cemetery. So I thought well I’ve travelled twelve thousand miles. I stepped over the rope to get in to have a closer look and I had with me a small, about four inch by twenty section of a Lancaster I’d purchased from the International Bomber Command. They were, they had refurbished the tail section of the Phantom of the Ruhr. They were selling off small sections which were advertised through the Lancaster Association. And I had bought, I bought two small sections and one of them I had engraved with the family names starred my father, sister, my grandfather and grandmother.
DE: Yeah.
FM: And I sort of hastily buried that.
DE: Oh wow.
FM: Beneath the headstones of where the crew are buried in Durnbach. So hopefully that is still there.
DE: I’m sure it is. Yeah.
FM: Yeah. So that was significant and I brought back, I have sitting here in front of me a pinecone from Durnbach, from the cemetery and I took two small soil samples from the, from the area because from Munich we flew to England.
DE: Yeah.
FM: I’d arranged through the RAAF Association here in Launceston in Tasi, to put me in contact with flight lieutenant [Hughie] Hector. Now, I hadn’t ever met [Hughie] Hector but I had close communications with her so I told her I wanted to visit Syerston where he flew from. She arranged, and she arranged something. I knew they were flying gliders.
DE: Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
FM: Up there. And through her she arranged that I would get in. We go there and they actually if we went to, we spent two or three nights in that area and they actually took me up on two glider flights off the same runway that Harry would have used in 1943.
DE: Oh wow. So you got to see the area from, from the air. Yeah.
FM: Yeah. The whole, the whole set up of the, of the Trent coming through at the end of the runway and frost and all that sort of stuff. And I was really lucky getting that because we visited there in 2017 and I think there has become stricter now with the Ministry of Defence. The young gentlemen that came virtually was very sceptical that I had actually managed to get a flight there. He was telling me who the pilot and that was so it happened some of the photographs of that flight and that, dad actually encouraged me and said [unclear] state of the logbook by the end of the series based on the glider flights flying from there quite a few painting based on that and one of the painting which was a link between that, a glider flying and again randomly chose one aircraft W4270. I did one on that and within a number of weeks just coincidentally again through the [unclear] link at the Lancaster Association they had an article about [unclear] services and it just coincidental I recognised the aircraft number and that then triggered off that he had, my uncle had actually flown that, that aircraft two weeks before he had his operation to Dusseldorf and Nuremberg and the aircraft I think was probably shot up a bit and they then used it as a training aircraft for another crew. And so in this the article was saying pieces of that aircraft had been found in the area by a local farmer [unclear] Ablewhite who you may —
DE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
FM: Have heard. They were sitting on the Memorial. Anyway, I got in touch with Di Ablewhite through the Lancaster Association and when we visited them in 2007, sorry [unclear] my times now.
DE: That doesn’t matter.
FM: Yeah. We were able to look at some [unclear] very small fragments of the aircraft and they knew it was that aircraft because one of the fragments in particular had a serial number on it. And that’s how they identified it still. So then that started me off on the ones that I sent you, Dan.
DE: Yeah.
FM: The paintings, “The Seven from Syerston.” So, and they took me to see the location where the aircraft went down and that sort of thing and again through as you know, a man who follows history the more you find out the more, the less you know.
DE: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
FM: Lead to a bigger picture. I discovered that Warne who was the pilot had actually flown with my uncle’s crew at one point when my uncle must have been off on leave or doing a course or something but they did do a flight. It was an operation to Milan with [Walters]as the pilot and all the rest of the crew so he must have flown as second dickie or perhaps as the flight engineer with the same crew that my uncle had flown with. So, there it was. What maybe just a number of weeks later that Warne and his crew were doing that training flight from Syerston and the aircraft had engine failure and the crash. So there was that double link if you like from finding out the name of the crew and the crew had flown with another crew. And then handling bits of aircraft were just [unclear]
DE: Yeah.
FM: So all of that became part of a greater exhibition I did in 2015 at a gallery in Hobart. About seventy paintings I had and the lead in of the exhibition was to do with his logbook series. And then that led into my experiencing the, “Seven from Syerston.” Then other, other aircraft, local ones near in Australia came with one called Little [Neva]. It was a [unclear] bomber crashed on the way back from New Guinea and I took, that coincidentally was called after my daughter. Coincidences. It was called Little Neva. And it was something based on that. Flying up the Gulf of [unclear] and there was the wreck of the aircraft. it’s pretty well inaccessible. So all of those sort of the Bomber Command stuff was the beginning of the sequence if you like and lead in. But then gave me a pathway through to explore other aspects in a broader way.
DE: And so you know your original interest in this was, was sparked by the stories you’d told, you’d been told about your uncle and finding the logbook. And then, “The Seven from Syerston.” It’s, it’s you know it’s largely it seems to me it’s a coincidence that you chose this aircraft that crashed that you found later on had a, had a connection. Yeah.
FM: Yeah.
DE: That’s incredible.
FM: It was actually a coincidence to that is for some reason I’d chosen as W4270 prior to reading about that because it featured in one of the larger paintings with the number. Yeah. I mean my paintings that are not paintings of aircraft which perhaps disappoints some people. I know people tend to like things like look like what they expect to see. But I find my paintings, the way I do that I’m able to include broader information than just depicting an aircraft if you know what I mean. It was pulling other information together past and present.
DE: Yeah. I mean I’ve looked. Looked at the work you do and yeah it’s mixed media isn’t it? It’s a mixture of Perspex and acrylic paint and digital and, and there on the, they’re unframed, aren’t they? Just on the canvas. Is there, is there a reason behind that?
FM: Sorry Dan? [unclear]
DE: Is there, as I remember they’re not framed. Is, is there a reason behind, behind that? Is that —
FM: No. The actual central surface has a small trim around them. The, the logbook series they have a frame. The frame is actually part of the painting. The central piece of the painting and the central piece I tend to imply it’s more about the person, the experience. The experience of the moment in time if you’re sitting there in a very confused situation and the big broader outside piece which had been in the original pieces of 30 ml of craftwood with the middle bit inserted in that. And the outside of it is more to do with the aircraft so, but at times, and the same with the [unclear] at times the outside finds itself competing with the inside and vice versa because of the confusion of the moment.
DE: Yeah.
FM: I’m not trying to replicate the situation but I would imagine they were having a very confusing time and the confusion of the moment the inside and the outside sort of come together. [unclear] outside the aircraft the centre. The frame itself is the frame but it’s also part of —
DE: Yeah. It’s part of the art. So yeah, it’s quite, it’s quite abstract and there’s bits that represent the crew and there’s bits that represent the aircraft and then its about the relationship between the aircrew and the aircraft I suppose. Is that —
FM: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. And particularly, there’s one there is only one which you actually see a figure [unclear] a clear image of my Uncle Harry from a photograph. His head is the operational [wing pattern] and I used his head. I engraved that. I engraved his head and made it on a bit of Perspex and then in the ink so that name fits over the top of a piece of the painting. So you get an interaction between the transparency of the Perspex and the paint and the images behind. So it’s almost like a reflected or refracted imagery coming together as one. You bring the person and the object together.
DE: I suppose there’s a sort of ghostly element to it as well a bit. You know it could be interpreted like that anyway. I mean, yeah. I see. I see your point about you know some people who are expecting to see a sort of photo, realistic painting of, of people in aircraft but my, my son has just completed a degree in animation so I’m, he uses mixed media and he’s very abstract as well. So I kind of get that sort of thing. It’s all about impressions and feelings isn’t it?
FM: Yeah. Well, the guy who did the interview in Belfast [unclear] prior the afternoon before the opening. I mean he said there were a lot of aircrew and there were and I actually gave a short talk the previous day to the RAF Association in Belfast. A number of those guys there and they were all coming that night. And he said, ‘Well, you know what do you think they’re looking over it?’ And I said well it depends [unclear] open ended. Different people will take different things from from the work.’ And I said, ‘I suspect with people who are coming from the RAF Association perhaps would be more interested in the documentation and information that they can read as opposed to interpreting [unclear] in mind you know and make up with composition. So —
DE: Yeah. But that’s, that’s included on the, in the artwork itself as well, isn’t it?
FM: Yeah. Yeah. The crew names and the numbers and the flight times, and the operational times. All that is included. More so in the three that are in England. I would choose one where we had a little bit of information. Series one they’re in relief and for example you know the location of the operational [unclear] would be Munich or Dusseldorf or whatever was actually raised up as three dimensional relief from the object. So the huge one which I have here is much more physically three dimensional. They are more relief panels whereas by transcribing it on to canvas obviously it’s more of a flatter painting.
DE: Yeah.
FM: And I did that but then I had the work tools so they’re not just reproductions of originals. They are another step forward and more information added. And also logically it had taken me twelve thousand miles to actually transport them to Belfast and they were, just rolled the canvases up and then I put them together, set them all together in frames and what have you while I was in Belfast trying to make the exhibition transformation from there.
DE: And they’re the ones that are now in East Kirkby. Yeah?
FM: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. I went to East Kirkby in 2017 with my cousin who lives in Woking and another cousin is [unclear] outside London. And she was getting married and my cousin and my wife came with me and my cousin, Sam who lives in Woking who has also been stored a lot of family history as well. And the only living relative of my Uncle Harry and my father was a sister and she was alive until she died about two or three years ago. But she came with us from, we drove from London up to, well they drove, we took the train up and met up with her, went to, I went to East Kirkby and had a look at the paintings [unclear] quite a few [unclear] there. Just Jane and the paintings [unclear] it isn’t actually hanging. In fact, it’s interesting, a coincidence in one history cabinet I discovered, we always assumed that the crew, my uncle’s crew, Sergeant Walters I always assumed that they were all [unclear] at the beginning and end of their career but in fact I discovered an [unclear] in one of the glass cabinets there [unclear] the crew prior to my uncle joining them like in the November of 1942. So I [unclear] five operations with Sergeant Walters [unclear] he actually had quite a few. More than ten when they were done.
DE: Oh right.
FM: Operations of my uncle and that was a [unclear] thing because my father [unclear] was that he thought my uncle was getting very close to his tour but in fact, as you know a tour is thirty operations.
DE: Yeah.
FM: So he was far from the end. But I think he might have discovered that in fact, the historian we met and my grandfather was perhaps it was Walters and the rest of the crew that had done a lot more than the ten operations. So you know they might have been getting close to the end of their tour. They were just unfortunate to not get out of it altogether [unclear]
[recording interrupted]
FM: Flight engineer. He joined in 1939 and he went in, he trained, this is just information he trained at St Athan in Wales, in Cardiff as a flight mechanic. My grandparents, it’s quite funny because I have a letter here. The last and only letter I’ve got which [unclear] gave which my uncle wrote. He must have written it [unclear] from St Athan. I can read it. Would you like me to read you a little bit of it?
DE: Yeah. If, if you’re ok. Yeah.
FM: This is a letter from my Uncle Harry to my father and mother who were still in Belfast. This is in 1939 and he obviously had only joined. He’d had gone to St Athan and Glamorgan for training and he says just a few lines, “Dear Sam and Marg, just a few lines to wish you luck and give you, give you Sammy [pause] Britain,” oh try again, “Britain has a lot of men who are so called heroes out here without you joining. So for God’s sake use your brains and stay at home and leave it to Joe and I.’ Joe was the younger brother who was in the RAF [unclear] 1944 and became a POW. “And let them do things to keep Jim from doing.” So also, he was the younger brother. So he had to [unclear] join up because they were streetwise and they can, “They know the ropes. They’ll not get into any trouble. If you do join now you would have to, you will have a hell of a time. They’ll push you all over the place. It’s not so bad for us. I’ve seen others train and the best way is to run like hell. Believe me I ain’t no hero and don’t intend on pushing my way to the front. I hope to be able to use my brains also and come out alright. If I don’t I will have had a good time.” Anyway, and it goes on in a more personal level of celebrating out on the town that night.
DE: Yeah.
FM: Local people he’d met and they’d got to take [unclear] Someone obviously knows and stay at home. By the looks of thing you will have plenty to do.” My father was in the Reserve Police at the time in Belfast. A [unclear] special. So there’s a man and he went on. Trained as a flight mechanic and obviously then obviously with the big Lancasters came on board and he’s obviously seen operations of that sort.
DE: Yeah.
FM: And for some reason ignored his own advice and became a flight engineer.
DE: Yeah. With, with the expansion of the RAF you know ground, ground crew were under a lot of pressure to, to remuster as, as air crew and particularly as flight engineers. So yeah.
FM: Yeah. And that would have suited him in a way because he always had a, one of the photographs that comes up on the internet he always has a [unclear] motorcycle and how they work and —
DE: Yeah.
FM: Weekend rides on the motorbike when they were living at the fire station pre-war which obviously [unclear] a Sunday morning ride and would snap the bike and put back together again. So he obviously was mechanically minded so the engineering and things obviously suited him. And then just transferred that skill and information interest to aircraft.
DE: Yeah.
FM: Yeah.
DE: And I’m just, it’s interesting that, you know you discovered that the rest of the crew had done more ops than him. Perhaps, I mean flight engineers weren’t needed in, in aircraft like Wellingtons so perhaps they’d fly on ops in something, you know, twin engined, and were then moved, yeah, to 61 Squadron wasn’t it? So yeah. Interesting.
FM: Again, some of the interesting things you find in the logbook after one of the operations they didn’t land at Syerston and they landed [unclear] they were then because their aircraft and the thing actually it may have been 4270 which was damaged and they flew back to Syerston and he flew back as a mid-upper back from England where the base was at Duxford or —
DE: Yeah.
FM: Bottesford. To Syerston, and he was mid-upper and the pilot was Flight Lieutenant Hopgood. And then again it turns out Hopgood in the end, they were his, they were down at Syerston introducing, the radial Lancaster being introduced and Hopgood was ferrying a radial Lancaster around Syerston and Harry just hitched a ride as a mid-upper. But it turns out Hopgood, as you probably know turned out to have had a second go at the Mohne Dam.
DE: Yes. A bit of a famous name. Yeah.
FM: Yeah. So they were, they were most, a lot of the Dambusters were selected from that, from Syerston and they formed that squadron command but I guess not from Syerston and of course by that time Harry was obsolete on 9th of March 1943 this [unclear] called the Dambusters.
DE: Yeah. Yeah.
FM: But [unclear] there was fantastic. I mean [unclear] operational place the whole landscape there [unclear] and we really, we’ve had two trips around that area and fantastic bit of landscape. Unfortunately, when we went into this with my aunt [unclear] who is now dead they wouldn’t let us on the day for security reasons and she and my cousin went back to London and my wife and I went back the next day and chanced our arm at the gate and spoke in the intercom and explained we were just over from Australia and the guy came down and could take us in, ‘I’ll take you in for five minutes.’ [unclear] and what have you but Margaret she never did get the chance to actually go on the base even. However, a lot of the side roads you are able to drive up and park right next to the [unclear] where the bays were.
DE: Yeah.
FM: So she at least got a feel of where he had flown from which was pretty, probably pretty emotional for her. Because she was only young. She’d have only been a baby. Very young. Well young. During her early, in her teens when her brother was killed she was. Yeah. So she actually joined the WAAFs towards the tail end of the war. She must only have been about seventeen.
DE: Oh right. Ok.
FM: She was a WAAF until the war finished.
DE: Do you think the —
FM: So I don’t, I don’t know Dan what else I can add. I mean I could ramble all day. I’m not sure what you really want.
DE: Well, you’ve answered most of my questions. I understand now your new project you’re looking at sort of a maritime trilogy is it?
FM: Yeah. I I had again a lot of my things become not necessarily coincidences in my family and what have you. My grandfather on my mother’s side was with the Royal Irish Reg. He was a runner in the First World War. I did as part of that exhibition in Hobart I did a space based on the Great War including some information on his background and I visited a friend of mine in Melbourne with the Sandringham Yacht Club. I understand that he sailed [unclear] actually he sailed from Sandringham Yacht Club. It turned out there was a eighty five metre 1917 British submarine which they brought to Australia in 1918. One of five and in the end they [unclear] scuttling it at the breakwater at Sandringham and it lies there to its massive hulk. So I did a [unclear] from that and that led me in to all the maritime information. My daughter is up in Queensland near Fraser Island. At the back of Fraser Island there’s a boat called, a ship called the Moheno. The Moheno was built in in Dumbarton in Scotland in 1904. She was the New Zealand Steamship Company but they brought it to New Zealand and took it back and converted it into a hospital ship and it served Gallipoli.
DE: Oh right. Ok.
FM: [unclear] Then locally here we have working, having a worked in the museum here I knew of a vessel called the Nairana. Now, the Nairana as it turns out because [unclear] I started looking at history of the different vessels it turns out it was built in the same shipyard as the Moheno in Dumbarton. And the Nairana was a fantastic looking vessel because they converted into an aircraft carrier in 1917 which is [unclear] livery. So you got this, these two vessels built in the same place for two totally different functions and in the Great War and off the back of [unclear] the aircraft by gantry from the back of the carrier in 1917. I mean that was, aircraft were only flying what five years or something from their invention. This thing was very much it appears the dazzle had been very [unclear]
DE: Yeah. Yeah. Dazzle paint’s fantastic, isn’t it?
FM: [unclear] 1911.
DE: Yeah.
FM: [unclear] if you like but the aircraft was picked up [unclear] there was an aircraft called [unclear] one, two, three of the top of my head and they were built in Belfast from where I was born. So there was a bit of a Belfast link there and also in that the Nairana at the end of its service went back to Australia. It was refurbished at Harland and Wolff Shipyard [unclear] that was built in East Belfast and then it came and it served between that and the Tasman run between Melbourne and Tasmania until 1948. So again, yes I did that maritime thing with bringing past and present together if you like. I did it on the Moheno on Fraser Island and took a lot of photographs and I presume that Maritime Exhibition is until the 19th. Yeah. But again [unclear] even though it, even if it’s maritime it still has the actual flavour of —
DE: Yeah.
FM: Past. Bringing past and present together.
DE: And the geographical connections as well. I’m just, I’m just looking at my notes and some of the questions I’d put. I think I read or heard somewhere that during some of your research you were, you got in touch with a family member of one of your uncle’s crew.
FM: Yes. Well, I I exchanged emails many years ago with, I think it was Young. A Canadian crew. And it was a bit strange. I’d go on to the emails but they weren’t enthusiastic emails [unclear] and whether it was a brother or uncle I’m not quite sure but sort of lost that chunk out. And the only other one that I sort of come across was the machine gunner called Briggs. He was called Briggs and he was only twenty two and he actually appears, there’s a photograph of him in the last few years. More recent form of publication for the Lancaster Association. I had a query if it was him. A guy called Jack Waltham who lives in [unclear] sorry in Newark and [unclear] giving them to the Lancaster Association to publish by this Jack Waltham and I have a telephone number for him. I actually wrote a letter to him because I would have liked to have got a copy of that photograph but I’ve had no response.
DE: Oh right. Ok.
FM: But at least I have a magazine with a photograph.
DE: Yeah.
FM: Of one guy, a twenty three year old in it. So other than that that’s the only sort of contact I managed to have with any sort of vaguely any crew. I’d love to get a photograph of the crew but I haven’t been lucky with that forthcoming. I don’t know how whether there were any taken or what have you.
DE: Yeah. I don’t know. I mean it always astonishes me that you know so many years after the, after the events that people keep coming forward with, with photographs and you know bits of memorabilia and things like logbooks and letters and diaries and those sorts of things so, yeah.
FM: The only photograph I have of Uncle Harry in uniform I don’t know where it was taken. [It came in a case] with my grandfather but there doesn’t seem to be any insignia at all on his tunic. But it’s pretty [unclear] formal tunic but I can’t see any. He actually looks quite old in it. He was. He was probably older than the rest, any of the crew at twenty seven when he was killed.
DE: Yeah.
FM: And the pilot was twenty six. Most of the crew were around the mid-twenties other than the two, the gunners was only twenty two sort of age. But I haven’t any of him in any sort of formal [unclear] insignia or what have you. I do have, sort of in here medals and that sort of stuff and in [unclear] I have the one that was awarded to him for service because there was no campaign medal as you know for, for bomber crew and you know three or four years ago they did actually strike a bar with a —
DE: Yeah. The Bomber Command clasp. Yeah.
FM: And the clasp. Yeah. And when I was there she [unclear] gave that to me myself from that year because she had a medal collection. So yeah.
DE: Yeah.
FM: If you’re interested I have actually got sitting in front of me here on the table is my, one of my nieces who lives in Belfast she sent me a poppy from the poppies that were exhibited in the Tower of London.
DE: Oh yes.
FM: There was like thirty thousand of them and she, at the end of it they sold them off and she bought one. Beautifully packaged they were. A really good project they did. She sent me that and I, what I did with that [unclear] I have it mounted on a beautiful slab of blackwood which is a Tasmanian timber with part of a shell case inverted and that, then the stem comes up through that and on the shell case I have engraved my uncle’s name, my father’s name, service number plus my wife’s, my wife’s from Tasmania, her dad and what have you all served with the Australian Army in North Africa, Borneo and what have you. And my grandfather named [unclear] I’ll send you a photograph of that if I can bring it up on the internet. It’s just a really nice piece of sculpture. I mean it was a fantastic project the installation they made in the Tower of London.
DE: Yeah. It was. Yeah. Yeah. It really was.
FM: So rather than just keeping the poppy I made a sort of [feature] of it and I actually included that in the Hobart exhibition of 2015 as part of the [unclear]. Yeah.
DE: Smashing.
FM: Quite coincidentally in the 2015 exhibition I, there was a bit of, particularly a local Legacy here which is a bit like the British Legion. They look after wives and families of ex-servicemen and a guy I met who was a pilot in the helicopters in Vietnam. He got the DFC. A guy called Peter [unclear] Through Peter I had a table and I actually sat next to him for the two weeks it was on and I paid for three panels and they were one from the Great War period, one for the 1939/45, some post-war things and I created part, I’d done a sort of preparation of imagery as a sort of background imagery and the bottom I gridded it up and people who visited the exhibition were invited to put something on the bottom segment of these paintings and they were up for auction. For sale at auction then all the money raised from those three paintings went to Legacy.
DE: Oh, that’s a good idea. Yeah.
FM: Some very interesting people came in and gave me a whole range of thumb prints on that. Some from ex-Lancaster crew [unclear] who was Australian who flew DFC [unclear] years ago and a lot of interesting people came through and put a thumbprint. Then I took them away, worked on the painting and people then could bid for them.
DE: Wow, ok. Yeah.
FM: Initially the poppy inspired me. I did some wood blocks based on the poppy installation. That was going to be too complicated so the thumbprints were the second best thing and that turned out actually better. Much more personal.
DE: Yeah. Definitely. I mean some people, some people collect signatures but a thumbprint is, is —
FM: Yeah.
DE: Yeah. Ok. I just have, I just have one more question that I usually ask in these sorts of interviews. It’s just how, how you feel about the way Bomber Command is being remembered. I just wondered you know if you have a different perspective from some because you know you’ve seen how it’s remembered in the UK and in Australia.
FM: Mixed feelings because only recently a book was being published that mentioned Bomber Harris. And they make Bomber Harris out to be an ogre of course. I mean they mention I think that Bomber Command went too far with their bombing too and they perhaps didn’t really need to but I I can understand why [unclear] much longer. So I have mixed feelings about it. Some [unclear] in the community perhaps think it shouldn’t have happened in terms of how they went about it. I’m perhaps more sympathetic as to why they had to do it. I mean my, my mother was actually at the receiving end of the Blitz. They called it the Blitz in Belfast in 1941 because she, we grew up in East Belfast. My brother was born. My brother was like one year old and my father was away in Africa and my mother’s house, she remembered the Blitz and [unclear] coming down. And lucky enough after the second wave they had taken her out to the country so back home the house was demolished. So family wise was quite an interface out of that fact that Britain had [unclear] as Churchill said they’d sown the wind, they shall inherit the whirlwind but I can, I can understand that attitude. And the things is all the Northern Irish men were all volunteers. There was no conscription in Northern Ireland so we were very much there voluntarily for whatever they were [unclear]
DE: Yeah.
FM: If you like, which is another story.
DE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
FM: Well, Dan I don’t know what else [unclear] I’ve answered all your questions or made them more confusing but —
DE: No. It’s been wonderful. It’s really interesting. Yeah. Thank you very much unless you can think of anything else to add I shall, I shall press stop on the recording now. But [pause] yeah.
FM: Well, [unclear] one thing I’ll do I’ll forward you a photograph from the internet if I can bring it up on the poppy sculpture. Because I think that link [unclear] which are down here. Yeah. So, as I say if you have any other specific questions [unclear] if you want to ask by email or something I’m happy to reply to you.
DE: Smashing. Yeah.
FM: There are, there have been a number of articles. In fact, you can probably access them. There was an article with a guy who did an interview and it appeared in the Belfast, a weekend Belfast paper 2019. The guy lives in Canada. America. From Los Angeles actually. A writer. He contacted me after the [unclear] exhibition in 2019 and he publicised [unclear] with his family background and there’s a double page spread in the Belfast Sunday paper talking about [unclear] operations in their family. What he did and [unclear] and what have you.
DE: Right.
FM: And it also appeared, a similar article was printed in the, in the Irish Herald in California prior to that so there are other people’s websites. It gave a potted story about [unclear]
DE: Okey dokey.
FM: Questions [unclear] and then he put it all together and he was a professional journalist he went on to publish them. Yeah.
DE: Right. Well yeah, we can have a look for that.
FM: Yeah. I could ramble on as I say which I’d probably be repeating myself after a while. The only thing that Durnbach as a cemetery was fantastic. It was a beautiful location. It took my wife three hours to get to it because we were staying at [unclear] which was about thirty kilometre from the main route. You were directed by the scenic country route and the Germans are worse than the Irish for giving directions I can tell you. It took us a long time to find the cemetery and they didn’t call it a war cemetery they call it a soldier’s cemetery. The local population there. But we found it eventually and had a look at that. My son actually had been there the year before.
DE: Ok.
FM: With his then partner. He’s since married her and they were tourists. They toured around. They went by car and just coincidentally when he was there [unclear] out of nowhere no people, very quiet and while they were sitting at the headstones of the crew there was a fly past of a jet aircraft.
DE: Oh wow.
FM: They did a pass and did a half wing pass over the cemetery because I think [unclear] is still an American base not far from Munich. May have been probably again coincidental but it was were quite strange that this happened.
DE: Yeah.
FM: [unclear] flew over the cemetery.
DE: It was. Yeah. It felt quite poignant I imagine. Yeah.
FM: Yeah. But the cemetery itself is in a brilliant location. A brilliant location. Real atmosphere. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully my piece of the Lancaster is still at the headstone.
DE: I’m sure it is because, yeah no one else is going to go digging around there are they? So, yeah. Right. I shall press, press stop on the recording. Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Fred McCullough
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-06-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:48:22 Audio Recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcCulloughF210621
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Fred McCullough discusses his series of abstract art works which are an homage to his uncle, Sergeant Harry McCullough, a flight engineer with 61 Squadron. He was killed on his tenth operation and is buried at Durnbach Cemetery.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Northern Ireland--Belfast
Tasmania
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
2015
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
61 Squadron
aircrew
arts and crafts
crash
flight engineer
killed in action
Lancaster
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Syerston
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1355/28010/AJacksonL[Date]-01.mp3
b987e831575e3f5a534c884e9d1fbbf8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jackson, L
Jackson, Les
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. The collection concerns Les Jackson (b.1925, 1897934 Royal Air force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 103 Squadron. It contains his log book and an audio memoir.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by C Thompson and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Jackson, L
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LJ: I knew there was an aviation museum at East Kirkby, near Spilsby, when my brother-in-law suggested we go and visit, I was all for it. When the car pulled up, I gazed at the vast airfield. I felt it was 1944 all over again. The museum has a tearoom decked out with old photographs on the wall, I looked at the squadrons, all those fine men, I looked for my squadron, 103, based at Elsham Wolds in North Lincolnshire, maybe see some old mates, but they weren’t there. I walked across to a hangar and there she was, a Lancaster. The smell took me back, that petroly smell. I thought about my crew, the pilot, navigator, our bomb aimer, wireless operator, and two of us guns. I was the rear gunner. We were all teenagers except for our pilot, Willie Johnson, he was much older. But this plane in the museum’s hangar was empty. I looked up at the turret, it made me remember how cold it was, sat there terrified, eighteen-thousand foot up. We completed eleven bombing raids, the last on in April 1944, when we attacked Berchtesgaden, Hitler’s hide-out in the Austrian alps. Somehow, we all got through it. Towards the end of the war, we dropped spam to the starving population of Holland. Apparently, there was a special arrangement with the RAF and German high command. My wonderful day at the museum brought back all these memories. For over sixty years, I’d kept my old RAF uniform in a wardrobe at home, here in Gainsborough. I often used to look at it and touch it, but it was time to let go. It’s in the museum now with many others. I hope, in a small way, it will help people not to forget the Lancaster crews and the great sacrifices they made.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Les Jackson memoir
Description
An account of the resource
Les Jackson talks about a visit to RAF East Kirkby and remembers his crew and operations.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AJacksonL[Date]-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
L Jackson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:02:16 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
103 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Elsham Wolds
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27255/POtteyRA2001.2.jpg
9ee64dbe9ab0542740b596e866ecc868
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27255/POtteyRA2002.2.jpg
69156e7f973ccaecf24c03376e4537d7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27255/AOtteyRA200807.2.mp3
ea4f559ab254093dfd6067f603d46227
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ottey, Ralph Alfrado
R A Ottey
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-08-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ottey, RA
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. Three oral history interviews with Ralph Ottey (b. 1924) and a photograph. He was born in Jamaica and volunteered for the RAF. After training in the UK, he served as a driver with 617 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and RAF Woodhall Spa.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Okay. Today is the 7th of August 2020. I’m Heather Hughes for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and I’m in Boston to talk to Ralph Ottey, a veteran of Bomber Command. RAF Bomber Command. Ralph, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. it's very exciting to have met you. Can, for the purposes of this interview would, would it be possible to talk us, to talk a little bit about your early life in Little London, Jamaica and then we'll come on to talking about your experiences during the Second World War serving with RAF Bomber Command and then we'll talk a little bit as well afterwards about how you came to come back to Boston and how come you are still here.
RO: Yeah, yeah.
HH: Okay.
RO: That’s fine.
HH: So tell us about your early life in Boston.
RO: Yes, well —
HH: In Jamaica.
RA: I was, well christened Ralph Alfredo Ottey. Really after my grandfather who was Ralph James Ottey. That's how. I was born in the little village of Little London in Westmoreland, Jamaica. British West Indies. Yeah. On the 17th of February 1924. I went to an elementary school in Little London. A Wesleyan Methodist Church School. And my, I was brought up by my grandparents Ephraim and Sierra Williams who were both prominent members of the church. I did fairly well at school and all the prospects were for me to become a teacher. I had, you had to pass an examination in Jamaica at that time called the Third Year Examination and then you can then apply to go to get a place at Mico College. The only training school for teachers, male teachers in Jamaica at that time. It is now a university.
HH: Is that in Kingston?
RA: That is. That is in Kingston. Which is a hundred and fifty miles away from. At that time it would be like fifteen million miles away from Little London to King, to Kingston. However, due certain circumstances at sixteen and a half I left the school. I passed my, what you call the third year Jamaican exam which gave me the right to apply for a place at Mico. But you couldn't get into Mico until you were nineteen. So I had two and a half years to read up. But then I was a, I was a pupil teacher being paid by the school thirteen shillings and four pence per week [laughs] That was. That was my pay that. Yeah. However, I left. I left there because I went to go to work for my uncle who had a bakery in Savanna-la-Mar. Savanna-la-Mar is the capital town of the parish of Westmoreland and my family is a very, quite dutiful family in, in Savanna-la-Mar. The first mayor of Savanna-la-Mar was an Ottey. Uncle Guy Ottey. So I was well, so I went to work for my Uncle Guy and I worked for, that was 19’ nearly the end of 1940. I was just over sixteen years old and, and I stayed with him for two years. But I always — they, they always want me to be this teacher but at the back of my mind what I wanted was to be a air gunner in an aeroplane. To shoot the Germans down. That’s, that’s all I wanted.
HH: Why?
RA: Well, because of Churchill. I used to know all of Churchill’s speeches. I, oh I managed the war with Churchill. I was disappointed when he didn’t consult me about these things that I had [laughs] And that was my thing in life. They were planning for me to become a teacher and so on. What I wanted was to be in the war. To be flying in an aeroplane shooting down Germans who were bombing London, you see. That was my life.
HH: It's, it's so interesting that you wanted to fly and in a, in an aircraft —
RA: Yeah.
HH: Shooting down Germans rather than, for example being at sea or in the army. Was there something very specific about the RAF?
RA: Special. The RAF was my thing because my father used to say to me, ‘Now, if you want to help in the war why don't you join the Jamaica Military Artillery?’ He said, ‘You have big guns and you're not even seeing the enemy. That's what you should be doing. Why you want to — ’ And I just treat it as a joke because the old man’s idea to be behind this machine gun shooting down Germans. Especially 1940 when the Battle of Britain, you see. That's what I, that was my motive. So I stayed with, I stayed with my uncle for two years. 1942. Then my father who was working with ESSO because the Americans had acquired a right to build bases in Jamaica and they were building a base near Kingston and my father was working for this big oil company and he got me a job with the base. The Jamaica base contractors. That lasted for about six, seven months when they finished building the runways so they laid off people and so and so . I went back to, to Little London because where the base was built was a hundred miles from Little London. So I went back to my grandparents in Little London in 19,’ at the beginning of 1943 and I got a job as a clerk in the local covered market. I used to go around and give people tickets and collect up money. And I, but my thing was the RAF, you see. It never never far away from me. Then suddenly, you know, yes they had a Census. 19’. A National Census in Jamaica in 1943. And I became a census enumerator so some of those stories about Little London I gained by going around doing the Census. So I know all the villages and the people in the villages and so and so. So I did. I did that and then I got, in 1943 [pause] yeah, that's right. I finished up 1943 then I went back to [pause] back to my uncle in Savanna-la-Mar. And I wasn't there very long when there was a notice in the [pause] the, the RAF was recruiting. That was interesting so I applied. I went. Took the exam. Didn't hear anything. Didn't, didn't hear anything from them for months. Then suddenly they said, ‘Come and sit the exam.’ So I went and sat the exams. Then like everything I didn't hear anything from them for a long time. Then suddenly they said, ‘Oh, well we're ready for you now. You have to come and take — ’ I passed the exam because I had to take a proper exam to get in the RAF. Did you know, not just for flying. You had to —
HH: Yeah.
RO: You took the RAF test, you see. So when, when this call came I went took the exam yes let's, got, got through that. And suddenly they say, ‘Oh, yes we want you.’ So we, I it went to another base in Jamaica which was a naval base at Port Royal which was a RAF camp on that base at that time. And I took the physical. Got through. Got through that all right and was given the RAF number, so and I I, they ask you, ‘What would you like to do?’ You know. So, of course, I said, ‘Oh, I want to be [pause] to shoot Germans down.’ Well, they say, ‘Oh, well you know,’ they said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you something. They said, ‘Your English is quite good so we'll put you down to be called a wireless operator/air gunner.’ Just the job as I thought. So I was signed up in the RAF to be trained as a wireless operator/air gunner and waited for a few months. Then they said, ‘Oh yes. We're ready for you now to go to England.’ So we, in the middle of the night they wake us up, put us on a boat and we went to a camp called Camp Patrick Henry in Virginia. American camp. The first time in my life I ever had anything to do with segregation because on this camp, a massive camp at a place called [pause] Oh God I forget the name of it. A camp. Camp Patrick Henry after the great American. Camp Patrick Henry in Virginia. And we stayed here for a few, a few weeks. And then suddenly we were based. We went on the biggest convoy. We went up to New York to catch a ship there and we went up [pause] I think we went on a ship that finished up. The Esperance Bay. Something like that they called it. We finish up being on this boat on the first convoy to come back to come to arrive in England during the, the invasion of France. While we were at sea the invasion took place. And this a massive convoy. Every day you're crossing the North Atlantic. Every day you are at the same place just surrounded by ships and you have their practicing shooting. And I I was very interested in the guns. Firing and so on. But one of the interesting things was, oh when you're young you do not, you're not bright enough to um to sense danger. We were at the bottom of the ship you see and at night they used to lock us in because we were untrained, you see. And if there was any possibility of people getting off, the people who were trained were [pause ] but we, we didn't, didn't worry one bit. Yeah. I think all that would happen to somebody else it wouldn’t happen to me. So it did. It didn’t happen. Never happened to us. We arrived at Liverpool and the first happy thing that really happened was that we were the only, we were the ship where the British servicemen were on [pause] most of them was Americans you see. These massive convoys. So they made the way to the port of Liverpool for British servicemen took off. So we were the first ship to dock at Liverpool.
HH: Great.
RA: That, and when we got there we were met by a Jamaican admiral. Admiral Sir Arthur Bromley, I always remember he was born as an Englishman born in Trinidad and he came, and I and remember the first thing he said to us, he said, ‘Is George Hadley with you?’ Because George Hadley was a great cricketer. I’ll always remember that. Oh, ‘Is George Hadley with you?’ But George Hadley was elsewhere. So we got off the ship and we're not supposed to know where we were going you see. But somehow the grapevine said you're going to Yorkshire. Right. So there was no we went through these stations and so on. There's no names on the stations. That kind of thing. So we finish up at a place called Filey, in Yorkshire. RAF training school. So we went to Filey and we spent thirteen, thirteen weeks being trained there. Doing the military training thirteen weeks.
HH: Were most of the people at Filey from um the Caribbean? Were there other people as well at Filey?
RA: Oh yes. Oh yes. There were lots of Jamaicans who and, and from other places. British Guyana there.
HH: Okay.
RA: And Trinidad. And we were West Indians. Yeah. And so we went to, we went to Filey and we were in, had another interview all over again. And this, I sat down with various officers so now, ‘I see you, you, you want to, you’re down here to be, you’re gunner and wireless operator.’ I say, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, unfortunately the way the war is going we don't, we don't have that kind of job anymore. You're either you're either an air gunner or you're a wireless operator. But we have plenty of, we have plenty of those. But what, seeing as your English is,’ that’s what I said to him. He said, ‘Seeing that your English is quite good I think they way you can serve best is you could be a motor transport driver.’ So you know that was it. Well, I’m in the service.
HH: Were you disappointed?
RA: I had to do what — eh? What?
HH: Were you disappointed?
RA: Oh course. Very disappointed. I mean.
HH: But it probably, it probably meant that you would survive the war.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. I I wanted to be in the thick of, in the thick of it so [pause] but of course then I took the oath so there I couldn’t say to this officer, ‘I’m not going to do that.’ He said, ‘That's what you, what you serve. You'll be good at that. So you will be good at, you’ll be good at this. We, we, we need people who, with good English.’ So they were, we did thirteen weeks.
HH: At Filey.
RA: At Filey. And on the passing out one of the people who, West Indian notables who came you know how later on. Yes. I was, because I didn’t keep my mouth shut I was part of the guard of honour. And how this thing happened was this, this sergeant who was training us saying to us that, ‘We are going to have, in the passing out there will be Colonel's Oliver Stanley who is your Colonial Secretary will be coming.’ And I said to him, ‘Well, corporal he isn't our Colonial Secretary. He is the Colonial Secretary.’ ‘Ah.’ So he said, oh he called me mister, he said, ‘Oh. Oh, Mr Ottey,’ he said, ‘Oh, since that you're so you're right but seeing that you're so bloody clever you will be on the guard of honour.’ Which meant a lot of extra training to be, so I realised that , to keep your mouth shut up.
HH: Yeah.
RA: So I was on the guard of honour to meet Colonel Oliver Stanley, the Colonial Secretary. And they were suddenly in the line Louis Constantine was one of the West Indian notables Again, I don't know why to me. He came and spoke to me. He came and spoke to me. He asked me where I was from. Jamaica sir He said, ‘Who brought you up?’ You know. Who? Your family. I said, ‘I was brought up by my grandparents in a little place called Little London.’ And so he said to me, he says, ‘You'll be spending a lot of time in England. He said, 'The English people are very fair,’ he says, ‘And I’m telling you this as one who have taken a hotel who put a colour bar on me because they had Americans there. And I’m telling you that if you, if you behave in England as you behave in the village where you come from, where your uncles and aunties are there you'll be quite alright in England,’ he said, ‘Because,’ he said, ‘English people are fair.’ He said, ‘Whatever happened they are fair-minded so you just do that. Just behave as if you're in the village and your uncle and grandfather also are there.’
HH: And did you? Was that your experience? Is that? Did — was that your experience?
RO: Yes. You see that, that's what he, that's what he, he said to me and so I always remember, I remember that that that I should don't get excited about what's going on. ‘Just behave as you would in Little London.’ He said, ‘Respect elders,’ because you had to in Little London. Respect elders and and so on. So you're a part of it. So that's what, that's what I did and as, as great fortune will fall on somebody I came down to the village from Filey into the town. It was a holiday place and I was in a café, in a little cafe and a little girl [pause] she was about, she was nine years old at the time came up to me and said, would, have I any foreign stamps? She said, she said she was a philatelist or something. This big word and I didn't know what it was really. She was a stamp collector. And had I any foreign stamps? You see. So I said, ‘Well, I haven't. I've got some at the camp because I have letters waiting for me.’ When I get on with the other boys. I said, ‘Well I haven't got any handy but I have some at the camp and I have people in my billet who have at the same. So I will get them for you. When are you going?’ I said. ‘Oh, we are here for a fortnight,’ she said. ‘Anytime you come,’ So I said, ‘Well, next time I'll be able to come out would be — ‘’ at such and such a time and we'll meet. So she took me over to meet her parents. Arthur [pause] Arthur and Lillian Pearce from Scunthorpe. Right. So I met them and I brought the stamps and we had a chat and they invited me to have a cup of tea with them and so on. Then just before, just before she says, ‘Have you,’ Aunt Lil said, ‘Have you, have you any family in England?’ I said, ‘Oh no.’ She said, ‘Well, we’re making you an offer, she says. Why don't you have us as your family and you cannot always come at 157 Cliff Garden, Scunthorpe to spend your holidays.
HH: Lovely.
RA: So from there we get Uncle Arthur and Aunt Lil and this little girl Pat. They called me family. That's where, when I got married they acted as my parents and we —
HH: Did you get married near Scunthorpe?
RA: I got married in Scunthorpe but that's a a later story.
HH: Yeah.
RA: And I I of course I left Filey. Passed out. I didn’t, I expected that I would do, do well at shooting because I loved it but I didn't do as well as I, that I thought I'd get a prize but I didn’t. I was disappointed because I thought I did fairly well but there were chaps who were better. Much better than me. So I left. I left Filey. Yes. I did. I put a story in I didn’t tell you. I missed that, that. They had an exhibition. A West Indian, a West Indian painting exhibition in Sheffield and there again I was part of the guard of honour.
HH: So you got to go to Sheffield.
RA: I went to Sheffield. Marched through the town to the, this Cutlery Hall where we met the Lord Mayor and had, and had something called Yorkshire pudding. Which was a bit disappointing because I was waiting to have a pudding. I was ready to have a pudding and it didn’t turn up. This was a little thing that was [laughs] But anyway we marched through the city and met the Lord Mayor and so on. Went to this exhibition thing. Then I got posted to a place called Little Rissington in Gloucestershire.
HH: Now, in your, in your in your memoir, “Stranger Boy,” you talk about how a corporal accompanied you to Little Rissington.
RA: Yes.
HH: Why was that? Because normally when you were posted somewhere else you were just told to get there on, on your own. But you were accompanied by a corporal.
RA: We, I was taken to um, to this place by, but it was, it was the usual RAF thing, or service thing. He lived around that place. So it was a perk for him to escort us. So he was —
HH: Okay.
RA: He got the chance to get home.
HH: Okay.
RA: I know that now. I didn't realize that but he he took us. There was a party of us you see. About six or seven who was sent to Little Rissington, and I spent my time at Little Rissington. Then I went to Blackpool and Blackpool was an exper, was an experience there. Yeah. n So I got I got involved with American colour prejudice for one incident there and I was rescued. I think I was rescued by a Scotsman who, there was about three Americans to me. I was with a girl. I was. I used to meet her. Me and another English chap used to meet this girl and we used to, we were only friends. We used to go to the amusement places and so on but this time this English chap wasn't, wasn't there and these Americans decided that they were going to beat me up you see. And there was this English serviceman who saw what was happening and intervened and said, you know ‘I can't see what your, your own ways but if you're going to get at him you're going to get through me first,’ you know. Like so they backed off. But that was a thing, you see. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
RA: But so I, but I learned something in, in Blackpool. I went, I used to, when we get plenty of, we were billeted you see. we didn’t have camp I used to go in town and I went into a jewellery shop. And this chap was very keen to find out about me you see. Then he said to me, he said that he was Jewish, you see. I’m Jewish.’ And so on. So I said to him, ‘Why is it that people are against Jews? So, he says, ‘It’s a long story.’ I said, ‘In Jamaica Jews are just white rich people and that's all really. They're white. They're rich. That's it.’ And, and he said to me, ‘Well it's a long story,’ he says, ‘It started from ancient times when Christians weren't supposed to be usurers. And most of the people with money and the king's and so on used to have a Jew who he used to borrow money and so on. So he says, ‘We Jews, we built up a, between his good states with the Jews between each other and so we, we got in the business of usury because that Christians would, yeah. And he said, he said that's what the cause of it that that there’s antipathy about Jews really.’ We get into a position where we have handling money.
HH: Yeah.
RA: Yeah. But I mean I didn't know. I didn't know that.
HH: Interesting.
RA: I didn't know about that. So I learned. I learned something. I learned something there.
HH: You did.
RA: After, I I passed out as a driver — they did thirteen weeks, you know.
HH: That was at Blackpool.
RA: No. No. No. Blackpool. I only spent a few weeks at Blackpool.
HH: Okay.
RA: Then they transferred us to number one RAF Transport School down in Wiltshire. Melksham in Wiltshire. And we, I spent thirteen weeks there and I passed out as a AC1 in driving. And I did. I could drive. Name it I could, I could drive it, you see. So I was alright. Then I was transferred. No. I became [pause] I was on my own then. They just, I got my pack and my tickets to turn, to come to RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire. There's nobody taking me there. I had to work myself from from Wiltshire to London to get to that's when I could have done with the help to get on there to go to a place called East —
HH: Kirkby.
RO: East Kirby. It was the nearest, the nearest [pause] No I didn't go to — no to go to Boston. I had to go to. Coningsby. That's right. I got, and I got as far as, I got to London alright and crossed station. Got on the train. Got to Peterborough. Get me get my connection to Boston. I got to, I got to Boston and nearly got into a fight. I got off the train and there wasn't any [pause] there wasn't any any, any trains there. You had to wait for a transport from the camps to take us. So I was in with an older, more experienced airman and he said, ‘Oh well, we’ll go in that pub there and wait ‘til the transport come from the camp at Coningsby.’ So we got in there. As soon as I went in — trouble. There was a chap [pause] spoke to me in Spanish, you see. And I, I said to him in Spanish, the little Spanish I know whatever I said intended I’m a black man. And he got me by the throat. Not being allowed to move. I couldn't understand why. Where? How I said it meant that I, ‘I don't talk to you.’ Which was, all I was trying to tell him that I understand Spanish but I can't have a conver, I wasn't good enough to converse with him, you see. Yeah. But he was, he was going to beat, beat me.
HH: You, were you rescued?
RA: Oh yes. There was another airman there. ‘What do you think you’re doing?’ And that calmed him down. As usual with the RAF I got on the wrong bus. Instead of getting on the bus to Coningsby I got on the bus to East Kirkby. So I got to East Kirkby and they said, ‘You don't belong here mate.’ I can’t do, ‘But It's too late now,’ They fixed me up with a bed and next day they put me on a train and I got to Coningsby. Got to Coningsby. They say, ‘Oh we don’t want you here. You’ve got to go to RAF Tattershall Thorpe which is next door.’ So off I went. Booked in. And so I got through. There's a system where you have to book into the medical. When I finished that I found myself, and acquired a bike because it was a highly dispersed camp so you had to have a bike. So I had a bike. I went to the MT Section to report to the MT Section. And there was a Jamaican there who was at the camp before me and he, he tipped me off. He says, ‘You are the last one who come here so what's going, going to happen? He's going to give you the dirtiest job in, in the section.’ But he said, ‘You want to accept it as if it's a gold mine.’ You say, ‘Yes sergeant.’ You know, ‘Quite all right. No, no problem,’ you know. Truly a [unclear] So the first job I got in the RAF after doing six months of training was to drive the sanitary waggon. So, ‘Yes sergeant. That's quite all right with me.’ You know. So I i I did that for about four weeks. ‘Quite alright.’ Followed what my Jamaican friend tell me to do. Then Sergeant Colwaine said, ‘Hey, I have a job for you.’ Right. ‘Yes sergeant.’ He said, ‘You're going to be the Chauffeur for the senior armament officer.’ It’s a gold mine. So I got this job to drive the senior armament officer in 617 Squadron. I was attached. I didn’t know about 617 Squadron then.
HH: When did you? When did you become aware of 617 Squadron’s fame?
RA: It’s when I, when I start working with the squadron. So I became the driver for the senior, the senior armament officer, 617 Squadron.
HH: That's quite a job.
RA: Quite. Well, I thought I was on my feet. Not only that. Because it was a lot of what you call down time I realized that in the air force if you use your [pause] you can get training. So I, I signed up at the college to do book-keeping and accounts because I had a lot of waiting time. I just drive the officer there and wait on him and in that time I’m reading and writing up my answers and so on. So I spent quite a bit of time doing learning about bookkeeping and accountancy while I was driving the, the officer around. Driving all over the place. And then of course I get to know about the aircraft.
HH: Did you ever encounter any of the air crew?
RA: Oh yes. Of course, I met the aircrew. They were fantastic. And some of them was my age. You see I was just twenty. Well, some of them were just twenty. They were lads like me And so I got to know them and I got to go. To get inside the aircraft and know all about.
HH: Did you ever get to fly?
RO: I oh I went on a flight. They encourage you. They encourage you at that time if there's a possibility where they're doing an exercise and if there's a pilot you get a flight, you signed up, so I did. And my why flight was they were going to [pause] they they're doing about they had done the bomb, the raid on the dams already before that. But they used to fly up around Yorkshire, you know. They have some lakes. And they used to. And I went on a flight. But they encourage you. They encourage you to do that if you're ground crew and you're near. They encour, they used to encourage you to to, to get at it.
HH: To experience it.
RO: Yeah. But while I was with the, the squadron I learned a lot about the Royal Air Force because of association. I wrote a lot about it. I learned to respect the Royal Air Force. And the camaraderie, you know, being comrades, and in 617 we always used to you learned that the order of things in life was. There was god almighty. There was Winston Churchill. There was Bomber Harris of Bomber Command. There was Group 5. And 617 Squadron. That was how they drilled it in to you and that's how I lived. So while I was, and while I was attached to the squadron I I other than driving the the chief around, armament officer I did other jobs like, oh I could drive a Coles Crane. I did driving what they called a Queen Mary. Yeah. It's you know those big wings on a bomber. They have a workshop in Lincoln and you had to take them for any repairs to Lincoln. I was good handed I drove a bow, what you call a petrol bowser filling up aircraft. I also drove a [pause] equipment which is a, it's a boat and and a cart. Well, you see they had a bombing range. They had a bombing range.
HH: Close.
RA: Near Wainfleet. And this, this vehicle used to be able to take the targets out and if the tide catched up it became a boat and we've lost one or two where it got caught. Caught out there ready for the tide. Yeah. So I used to, I used to, used to drive that out to take the targets out to and so I had a very wide experience in driving all sorts of motor vehicles. Motor vehicles. Which if you follow my story it, when I finished, when I, you know I’m quoting. Yes. So I spent my time at Coningsby.
HH: [unclear]
RA: No at Tattershall Thorpe. And then when the war finished.
HH: Can I just ask you something about those bomber stations where you were based? Is that again reading your memoir on those years I got the impression that at most of the, of those stations there were quite a few black ground personnel. Was that correct?
RA: Yes.
HH: You know. You know.
RA: Oh yes.
HH: There were quite a lot everywhere.
RA: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. Oh yes. Every station. Every station there was. Yeah. Oh yes but I I I don't know. I was fortunate in that I wasn't moved about. I, I was at Woodhall. What they called RAF Tattershall Thorpe. They call it Woodhall Spa but it was in the air forces as RAF Tattershall Thorpe. And then when, when the war in Europe finished I was still at RAF Tattershall Thorpe but the squadron was going to, 617 Squadron was going to move somewhere down south. I forget the name of the camp but we were going to go to Okinawa. Right. And I was sent on a course of Japanese aircraft rec.
HH: Oh gosh.
RA: At a place called Strubby in Lincolnshire. So I went. I went. I went on that course and while I was at that course they dropped the atom bomb and then I was scrubbed. And I was annoyed because I wanted to go to Okinawa. Fool. I mean, I don't say I should have known that I should have been glad if they’d posted me to the Orkneys not [laughs] Not Okinawa.
HH: And do you know the dropping of that the first bomb was seventy five years ago yesterday.
RA: Yeah.
HH: Yesterday was the 75th anniversary.
RA: Yes. I was, I was on a course then.
HH: And you were at RAF Strubby.
RA: Strubby. The Japanese aircraft rec.
HH: Incredible. Incredible.
RA: And I, and a incident there I’ll always remember. We, we were trying, using train to fire a twin mounted Browning gun. And we were all there learning and this youngster said to the sergeant, he said, ‘Hey sarge, now what [pause] if I shoot down the plane that pulled the target?’ And this sergeant, who was a comedian as well, he said, Son,’ he says, ‘If you follow the word of command when I give you the word of command to fire,’ because this plane was taking a drogue you see. ‘When I give you the word of command to fire if you hit that plane I will personally see that you become a air marshall.’[laughs] He said that. Because the drogues are apart, only a hundred yards behind the aircraft. So he said, ‘If you shoot that aeroplane down I’ll see you’re all right.’ So that’s what happened. The war, that part of the war finished for me at Strubby. And from then on it was. —
HH: It was winding down.
RA: Oh yes.
HH: The war effort. Yeah. Yeah.
RA: And I became, you know I of course kept on with my studies in. So in the end the the air force, the RAF and the Colonial Office give me a scholarship to do bookkeeping and accountancy. Business Management. So I got a scholarship to go to a college in, in [pause]
HH: Now, had you already, had before you got the scholarship had you already elected to go back to have your training and then go back to Jamaica?
RA: Oh yes.
HH: How many, how many people in your situation decided to stay rather than to go back?
RA: Quite, quite quite a few stayed because the option was open to me. The air force was keen to have people because at that stage we were trained people. So any, any Jamaican who wanted to stay in the RAF was welcomed with, with open arms you see because they trained people getting out into what you call Civvy Street and they you want people like myself who had three or four years in the service too. So I went to college. Did fair. Did fairly well at, at college. Got a diploma. Everything. And went back.
HH: But before you went back you had, you had met the love of your life.
RA: Oh, yes. Yes.
HH: By coming to Boston.
RA: Yes. Yes. Yes. I went to the Gliderdrome.
HH: So you need to tell us about playing cricket and dancing. That's the other part of the story you haven't mentioned yet.
RA: Yes. I got, I was, I got I I was quite I was quite a good cricketer from school. From school I was captain of the school, school team and so on. So I, I fitted very well with the the air force with sports you see. And I I did alright at the cricket in the RAF. In the RAF. And when I came to Boston I I I did. So, so yes I I went back to Jamaica of course. Went back on the Windrush.
HH: You did indeed.
RO: Came back on the Windrush and went to Trinidad and to Port of Spain in Trinidad and there's a, there's a main street in Trinidad. I forget the name of the street. And there's a main street in Kingston. And if you shut your eyes and taken, you could it could be the same place. The people. There were Chinese, Syrians, Indians in that street in Trinidad. Just like, just like Jamaica. So, the West Indians. There is something there's this thing that the same kind of people do thousands of miles away from Jamaica to Trinidad but they are, you know. It’s the same. You walk down the street and the same people. Indians, Chinese, Syrians, Jew, the same.
HH: Yeah.
RA: Some West Indians are really something. And of course we're British. That is a, that is a thing that [pause] I don't know if [pause] it's going from the story but I always see myself, you see as a coconut. You know about coconut. I am the, I am a coconut. I may be brown but inside I’m white because and the, the, the newer, the younger Jamaicans are not like that. They're not like me in that respect in that in growing up as I I wanted the things, the better things in life and the people who had the better things in life were the white people. They had the big house and the cars and the land and so on and that's what I, what I wanted. So deep down I was a, the joke about it was, ‘Oh, you're a coconut.’ But I say, ‘Yes. Yes, I am. I can't help, I can’t help it. I’m a child of my [age] Yes. I’m a coconut.’
HH: But I mean, you grew up when when that was part of the British world.
RA: Yeah, that’s right.
HH: Jamaica.
RA: When the young, the younger Jamaicans are completely different to —
HH: Yeah.
RA: To, to me.
HH: Yeah. They have just known independence.
RA: That's right I I have never voted in the Jamaica election.
HH: Yeah.
RA: You see.
HH: Yeah.
RA: I am, I am your typical Jamaican coconut [laughs]
HH: That's a wonderful story.
RA: Yeah.
HH: Ralph, I’m just going to [pause] So, Ralph we've got to the end of your story of service in the RAF and your return to Jamaica and we're going to conclude this part of the interview by saying it's part one and we will resume with part two and your life back in the UK in the, in the coming weeks.
RA: Okay.
HH: Thank you very much for talking.
RA: Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ralph Alfrado Ottey. One
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2020-08-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:53:51 Audio Recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOtteyRA200807, POtteyRA2001, POtteyRA2002
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Heather Hughes
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
Jamaica
England--Lincolnshire
England--Filey
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
Jamaica--Little London
Jamaica--Kingston
Trinidad and Tobago--Trinidad
Trinidad and Tobago
England--Lancashire
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Ottey was born in Jamaica in 1924. Brought up by his grandparents, he describes his education and family hopes that he would become a teacher. He left school at 16 and a half but was too young to attend teaching college so worked for his uncle from 1940 to 1942. Ralph wanted to be an air gunner. He explains the variety of jobs he had before attending an RAF recruitment event in 1943. He applied to join but had to wait to sit the entrance exams. He enlisted to become a wireless operator/air gunner. He sailed in a convoy from New York to Liverpool. On arrival he was posted to RAF Filey for 13 weeks basic training. Told that there was no demand for new wireless operator/air gunners he was assigned the role of motor transport driver. He explains that whilst at RAF Filey he met what were to become his adopted parents. He was posted to No. 1 RAF Transport School at RAF Melksham. He passed out as an aircraftman first class driver (AC1) on completing the 13-week driving course. Finally posted to RAF Woodhall Spa he drove a variety of vehicles including petrol bowsers, the sanitation wagon, and Queen Mary trailer. He became the chauffeur for the senior armaments officer for 617 Squadron.
He describes being prepared to be sent to Okinawa, but the war finished before he was sent. He was awarded a scholarship to study accountancy and successfully obtained his diploma. He then returned to Jamaica on HMT Empire Windrush.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Paul Valleley
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
617 Squadron
African heritage
ground personnel
petrol bowser
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Hunmanby Moor
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Melksham
RAF Strubby
RAF Woodhall Spa
recruitment
service vehicle
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1551/26402/ARudkinK161015.2.mp3
a7d6f789e096a7a5a3b8586791ae94d2
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Title
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Dawson, Alf
Alfred George Dawson
A G Dawson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dawson, AG
Description
An account of the resource
16 items. An oral history interview interview with Kenneth Rudkin about his friend Alf “Digger” Dawson of 630 Squadron. The collection concerns Alfred George "Alf" Dawson (198590 Royal Air Force) and contains his dairy, service books and photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by K Rudkin and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, these items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre.
Requires
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Being used by students 23-24.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Kenneth Rudkin
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:40:28 Audio Recording
Identifier
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ARudkinK161015
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Rudkin relates the story of his friend Alf “Digger” Dawson of 630 Squadron. Alf, from Cumbria was working as a fireman for the railways when he and his friend answered the call for volunteers for aircrew. Alf trained as a wireless operator. When the time came to crew up he and a friend found themselves without a crew and so were presented to two possible pilots. They tossed a coin and Alf went with his pilot. His friend and the other crew were lost on their seventh mission. Alf and his crew formed an attachment to their Lancaster because they were so grateful she brought them home no matter what they had faced on the flight but one day when they were on rest the replacement aircrew and their Lancaster were lost on operations. On one operation they had problems with their radio equipment and the static was traced to the rear gunner. The pilot told him to switch it off and only speak if necessary. This led to great panic when they came under attack from a night fighter and the rear gunner was trying to scream instructions only to realise that he had forgotten to switch the radio back on.
This item is available only at the University of Lincoln.
Type
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Sound
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Requires
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BW: This is Brian Wright. I’m Interviewing Mr Ken Rudkin, a friend of Sergeant Alf “Digger” Dawson, a veteran of 630 Squadron at East Kirkby in Lincolnshire and it’s 3:30 on Thursday the 13th of October. Ken’s kindly agreed to provide information because Mr Dawson is unfortunately seriously unwell. So, what I’d like to do is just begin with asking you what you know of Alf’s early life. Where he was born and what he did prior to joining the RAF.
KR: Well, Alf was born in Carlisle in what is now Cumbria and his parents ran a public house which at that time was in the State Management System which was a system that was unique to Carlisle that was introduced in an attempt to cut down on drunkenness that apparently was quite rife in the area at that time. When he left school he got a job on the railway which was simply oiling the locomotives, the steam locomotives and then he moved on to become a fireman on the locomotives. At that point he and a friend saw an advert that they were wanting people to join up for the war effort and one of the options was the RAF so they, they both decided to apply for the RAF. And at that time he wasn’t quite old enough but by the time he’d got accepted and gone through the basic training I think he was of the required age. He trained as a radio operator and on completion of that he had to go into the process of finding a crew. Now, I’m not sure of the place where he trained but that I think can be, can be found. I can find that out at a later date if it’s, if it’s required. Following the training the system was that they were put into a hangar and told to wander around and introduce themselves to different people, crew members and try and sort themselves out into a group of seven to crew a Lancaster. And at the end of this process Alf and a friend who had trained with him hadn’t found a crew, hadn’t found a pilot and were eventually introduced to two New Zealanders. One was a tall six foot three person who didn’t look like a pilot at all. The other one looked the part. He was a typical Biggles. And these two looked at each and thought well I don’t like the look of yours so they decided they would spin a coin. They spun the coin and Alf lost the toss and so he got the one that didn’t look the part. And once they got posted to their squadrons and so on they started the operations and unfortunately the one that won the toss went down on the seventh raid and all the crew in that aircraft were killed and Alf went on to complete thirty four successful missions. And at the moment he’s ninety three year old and unfortunately he isn’t very well but he’s still here and he’s just celebrated his thirty second wedding anniversary to his second wife and they’re really happy together even though he is at the moment unwell.
BW: So, the pilot that he crewed up was a New Zealander called Doug Hawker.
KR: Douglas Hawker. Yeah. And he was from Christchurch. His family were farmers. His father was a farm manager and he was brought up on a farm and again very patriotic out there. When they saw what was happening in Europe they felt that they had a duty to volunteer to come across here and help the cause. That’s how he came to first of all train to fly aircraft which happened to be a Tiger Moth and eventually on to a twin engine. And then eventually on to four engines and then finally on to, on to Lancasters.
BW: Were the rest of the crew New Zealanders or were they all English?
KR: The rest of the crew were all English. One was Jack. Jack the navigator. He had been an accountant prior to, prior to the war and the engineer, he had worked in agriculture. I’m not sure about what the, what the gunners and the bomb aimer did prior to the war.
BW: Did he, did Alf relate to you what it was like on the squadron at the time? What the facilities were like or their social life was like? I mean you mention he did ultimately quite an extensive tour over the minimum thirty ops required. But there must have been times when they of course weren’t flying. Did he mention anything about a social life at all or what did he do?
KR: Well, yes. They were fortunate in respect that one of the crew had a little Austin Ruby car. So they used to pile in to that I think and take off to the various places where there was a pub or even dances going on. And at that time the only person who was married was Doug. He was the oldest of the crew. I think he was twenty five when he qualified as a pilot whereas the others were certainly a few years younger than him. And one of the other crew had a motorbike and I think they used to from time to time beg lifts to go out and socialise using the motorbike or the car.
BW: But they all got on really well as a crew. They were all good friends and so forth.
KR: They got on excellently well with the crew but I did notice having gone to several of the squadron reunions at East Kirkby that Alf didn’t appear to know any, very many people around about him. Any of the other squadron members. But I did actually ask him on one occasion why this was and he said, ‘Well, we didn’t make friends because we didn’t know how long the people in the same billet were going to survive. And there were two crews in each billet and he said sometimes you went out on operations, you came back, you thought well they’re late back but sometimes they turned up. And then on other occasions when you woke up in the morning there were ground crew in there and they were opening up the lockers and taking their personal belongings out. So they didn’t, they didn’t tend to make close friends other than within their own crew.
BW: And they flew all the time on Lancasters at this time. You mentioned they’d done some training on Halifax and Stirling prior to that. Did he mention anything about experiencing a difference or a preference between the aircraft at all? Was there anything that struck him as particularly good or bad about being on a Lanc?
KR: I think the main, the main problem was how easy it was and how difficult it was to escape from these things. For some members of the crew it was slightly or much easier than others and I think that was always at the back of, the back of their mind. But they did become very attached to the Lancaster because some of the damage that was caused on the raids he said it was a miracle how they got back with all the parts that had been blown off it and so on. And on one occasion, on one raid he himself was personally very lucky because a shell came through the fuselage of the aircraft and took all the radio gear out in front of him. So on that occasion he was, you know he had a lucky, a very lucky escape. And they became very attached to one particular aircraft that they did most of their missions on. Twenty eight missions they did with the same aircraft, got it back every time obviously. And then they had a three raids in close succession. They had been out on short, on short trips and had a bit of a rest and then they were out again the next night and Doug who by this time had become the flight lieutenant and was in charge of planning the crews he decided to give his own crew a bit of a rest and he put in another crew on to their aircraft. And that crew lost the aircraft. It didn’t come back. And I think they’d become very attached to one particular aircraft and I think it caused a little bit of a little bit, a little bit of a concern when they had to go out on a different aircraft but they managed to do several more trips after that safely.
BW: Were any of them superstitious in that respect? I mean, you mention some of them getting quite attached to a particular aircraft. Did any of them or did Alf relate any superstitions or things like girlfriend’s gifts or whatever that they would take on a mission for luck with the, or did they just sort of get on with it?
KR: They, I don’t, I don’t know whether he had any lucky charms or anything but I do know that he used his tin helmet for other reasons than putting on his head. Because he said when there was a lot of flak about he decided to sit on it because he was keen to preserve his manhood because if he lost that he may as well lose his head anyway.
BW: Innovative use of equipment. Did he mention what the aircraft was? What it, whether it was the registration number. Did it have a nickname? Was it O-Oscar or something like that?
[recording paused]
BW: So their particular aircraft was a Lancaster Mark 3, Registration ND. That’s November December 527 LE. Oh, they nicknamed it Leo which is I suppose unusual in a way because most, that just obviously relates to how the code letters on the aircraft appear but most of them were given girl’s names. So they had a boy’s name on an aircraft or referred to as an aircraft was I suppose unique.
KR: No. As far as I know they didn’t. They didn’t give it any names. But I would be surprised if they didn’t because I know that Doug the pilot he, he was married before he came over and his wife was called Margie. So that would have been maybe an obvious, obvious name for it. I know he used to write to her frequently because he mentions in his book, he even numbers the letters and I think the last one was ninety eight.
BW: And so at this time this is, this is 1944 when they’re on, when they’re on the tour and flying from East Kirkby. Did they mention any memorable raids? I see Doug has written a book called, “With Luck to Spare,” which I’m sure he details the raids in there. Was Alf quite open about his experiences on the raids and if so what? What sort of things happened?
KR: Yes. He’s told several, he told me several stories and details about various raids and so on. Probably the most memorable one was the third one when they were on a long raid. They were, they were going out to Berlin and it wasn’t a good night. There was a lot of cloud about and on the way out they were attacked by night fighters. But just shortly after take-off they realised that there was a problem with the radio communication on the aircraft because Doug was getting a lot of static in the headphones and they did a test to see whose, who was causing it. It turned out to be the rear gunner so Doug told him to switch it off and only speak to him if they came under any attack which unfortunately they did and the rear gunner was trying to warn Doug and there was no response. And then he suddenly realised he hadn’t switched the radio on so he’s frantically screaming down the radio to break to starboard or port. Doug immediately does this and unfortunately overreacts in the emergency and loses control of the aircraft. They fall down through a layer of cold air and the cockpit freezes over, or condensation anyway and he can’t see out. All the instruments are spinning around. He doesn’t really know where he is or which way up he is. Eventually he decides he’d better try and pull it out so he pulls back on the stick and he keeps pulling and pulling and suddenly gets to the point where he realises he’s losing airspeed. So he checks with the engineer, checks with the navigator to see if they have any answers. The engineer comes back and says everything’s ok. The navigator tells him he doesn’t know because his alternators and so on are spinning around. So he, the decision is made. He’s got to put the nose down to put the airspeed up otherwise they’ll fall out the sky. So he sticks the nose down and it builds up and eventually he gets the things on a level keel and they carry on and complete the bombing raid. When they get back the aircrew discover that all the ammunition out of, out of the guns, the magazines are lying on the bottom of the aircraft and when the engineers check the engines and so on they discover that some of the glycol has drained out of the, out of the tanks and the only way that that could have happened was that that aircraft had flown upside down. And it had a full bomb load on.
BW: So upside down.
KR: And that was, that was the nose.
BW: Upside down over Berlin with a full bomb load on.
KR: That was a bit of an hairy experience for your third trip out and I often wonder just how much confidence that gave the crew at that stage in the flying. But he got them, he got it sorted out and he got them back safe.
BW: And were there other ops that were memorable too?
KR: I’ll do that one first.
BW: So yeah. Just describing any memorable, any other memorable raids or incidents. You mention about formation flying or unusual bits of flying.
KR: Yeah. Doug, during the early raids they were always informed that they had to fly straight and level and not to deviate from the, from the flight plan. And as they were flying along, because Doug was in a situation where he could see what was happening around about them he was watching and seeing aircraft going down at various points of the raid and he came to the conclusion that these aircraft weren’t taking any sort of avoiding action. They were suddenly flying along level and suddenly they were blowing up and going down. And he came to the conclusion that maybe the rear gunner whose, part of his job was to inform the pilot if there was a fighter coming on to the back of them wasn’t sending the information through. So he did a little bit of an experiment. He started to climb up behind the aircraft in front of him to see how close he could get before there was any reaction and he got very very close. He could actually see the rear gunner quite clearly sitting in the turret and he wasn’t making any sort of movement or reaction to the fact that he was coming up behind him. So he decided that there was probably a blind spot on the turret and they couldn’t see. So from that point onwards he told the crew that they would be in for a bumpy ride because he wasn’t going to fly straight and level. He was going to bank one way, bank the other. He was going to change his angles and his course slightly and then come back on to the course. And while he was doing that he wanted the rear gunner to just check all around. And he felt that that was one of the reasons why they managed to survive on some of the raids that in particular there was a lot of night fighter activity on. One of the, one of the raids that Alf had apparently had to play quite a large part in saving the aircraft was on a flight to Stuttgart. They were going to bomb an aircraft factory there and on the way back a night fighter got on their tail and there was so much cloud about they couldn’t get a clear vision on it. And so they had to rely on the radar system which was known as the Fishpond and was operated by the radio operator and he was, Alf was constantly tracking this aircraft and Doug was constantly trying to shake him off by spinning the aircraft and then pulling it back up again and it was, I think it went on for quite a while. They were beginning to get a little bit worried that they weren’t going to be able to shake this thing off in time but eventually they managed to. They managed to shake him off.
BW: And was the Stuttgart raid do you think their longest mission? At this time of the war the bombing force are proportionately flying more in to France. Did, did Alf make a distinction between the sort of experiences he had flying over France as opposed to Germany or other parts? Were there —
KR: Well, the French, the French missions towards the end they were, they were obviously much easier. There were far less aircraft lost on them. It was really the longer ones that were the problem. Particularly on one mission that they did which was a particularly long one and they were flying with the largest bomb that they carried. The tallboy.
BW: The tallboy. Yeah.
KR: The tallboy. And on that particular occasion when they, when they were lining up to take off they were taxiing from each side of the runway to the take off point and they had tankers out there refuelling them right up until the last moment so that they would have enough fuel on board to give them a chance to get there and back. And that was going out to Berlin and to do that they had to fly out to Milan and then come back in which, it was a bit of surprise to hear.
BW: Yeah. And so overall they managed to complete thirty four operations.
KR: Yeah.
BW: What sort of time in the war did they finish? Was it towards May or April 1945 or was it or was it at the end of ’44. Does he recall that?
KR: It was 1945 when they, when they finished actually on active bombing. But then as far as Alf was concerned he went on to be an instructor, a radio operator instructor and he went, he went out and I’m almost certain it was to Ceylon where he went out to, to train radio operators on aircrew.
BW: How did he get the nickname Digger? Where did that come from?
KR: I think it went, it went back to the, to the time when he was a fireman on the railways digging the —
BW: Digging the mines.
KR: Digging the coal out of the, out of the –
BW: Tender.
KR: Tender. And feeding the fire. I think that’s, that’s where he got the nickname, Digger.
BW: It’s usually an Aussie nickname is that. So he decided to stay on in the RAF after his tour had finished and did he remain as an instructor until being demobbed or did he continue in the Air Force for a period after that?
KR: No. I think, I think once he had finished with the work of instructor he was demobbed. And after, after being demobbed he needed to find somewhere to live because he wanted to get married and one answer was to go like his father had been back in to the pub trade and so he started to apply for public houses over Cumbria. Around Cumbria. And he eventually got, got a pub near to Penrith out in the, the countryside.
Other: Kirkoswald.
KR: Yeah. In a village, Kirkoswald and at that time there wasn’t a Post Office and now it’s fairly common that, you know we’ve got pubs and Post Offices cropping up all over the place. Combined village shop and a Post Office. So Alf decided that during closing time he would be a postman. So he actually did two jobs. He was the landlord of a pub and he was also a postman. He was also a keen haaf netter. Haaf netting is a method of catching salmon as they’re coming up the —
Other: Solway Firth.
KR: Solway Firth into the River Eden and —
BW: And was that a legitimate job?
KR: Oh yes. It’s a legitimate job. Yeah. They have a licence to do it.
BW: Right.
KR: And they can only do it for a certain period of time each year so he was involved in that and in more recent times he was a keen bowler in bowling. Green bowling not indoor. And was responsible for the, for the bowling green in several villages in Cumbria.
BW: Right.
KR: So he’s had quite an active, active life. He certainly hasn’t [pause] he certainly hasn’t sat around.
BW: And he’d had, he’d had a period of time after the war where he was single but eventually he got married and I think you said earlier his, he was married to his first wife, Peg.
KR: Peggy.
Other: Peggy.
BW: Peggy. And had two daughters. But he’s since married again. So he had did you say thirty six years?
KR: Thirty six years with his first wife.
BW: First wife.
KR: And then I’m not quite sure a period of time. What period of time he was on his own but it can’t have been too long. And he and a friend went off on holiday together and it was a holiday romance and I think it was mainly based on the fact that he was a good dancer because his present wife likes dancing and they are still actually members of a jazz club in Carlisle. I think he is quite annoyed that he can’t get to the jazz club now that he's not so well. So yeah, I remember going to, having met him at the gym when he was over eighty then one other member of the gym had a golden wedding and the over fifties group were invited and I was absolutely amazed that how well Alf and Doreen could jive. He was over eighty and she must have been quite close to eighty at the time. So quite an active, active person.
BW: And you mentioned previously that you’d taken him down to London to see the Hyde Park Memorial. What did he think about that? How did he feel Bomber Command veterans have been treated prior to the memorial and what did he think of it? Of the Memorial afterwards?
KR: Like a lot of Bomber Command veterans I think they were, they were very disappointed that it had taken so long for them to be recognised for the work and the service that they all did and the number of losses and so on during the war. But when he, but when he saw the Memorial you know I think he was very touched by it because, and I think everybody who sees that Memorial must be touched by it because I think it’s, you know it’s a fantastic Memorial to them that has come eventually. However, I think he and a lot of veterans are disappointed that they didn’t actually get a medal. Instead of which they were given a bar which even to somebody like me I personally think it’s a disgrace. The thing itself. I mean I’ve heard that they’re advertised on the internet for like, for a matter of a few pounds or similar. Whether they’re the actual ones or whether they’re, I can’t imagine why anybody would want to fake them. But, yeah that was one thing that has disappointed him. He’s still, he’s still disappointed to some degree in that he didn’t get a medal which I think all aircrew were given for general service over Europe.
BW: Yeah. The Aircrew Europe Star.
KR: Yeah. Now, there were only two members of their crew who received that and that was the pilot and the navigator and the rest of the crew didn’t receive it.
BW: Oh.
KR: And I know there’s been representation made on Alf’s behalf by a nephew of his to try and find out why and the only reason that he was given was that he hadn’t served long enough. The amount of time. But it seems a bit odd that they all served the same amount of time. They were all on the Lancasters. They were all trained together as a crew.
BW: If they’d all served a full tour and in that, in their case seemed to have done the thirty four and not been replaced which did happen with some crews you would expect there would be enough. I’d personally have to look at the qualifying criteria to see whether there’s any indication but his logbook or his service record would be something that his family could refer to. They could send away for that and that would give more detail. But in general he’s pleased that there’s been some albeit belated recognition.
KR: Oh yes. Oh yeah. He was certainly very impressed with the Memorial in London. Yeah.
BW: Good. Thank you very much for your time, Ken. Much appreciated. Thank you for the experiences and recollections of Alf Dawson.
KR: Well, I hope it was of some value to you.
630 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
RAF East Kirkby
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1222/12028/PSpencerGC1901.2.jpg
8083fea68b27ab2d47336859883af7a0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1222/12028/ASpencerGC190123.2.mp3
836491e6db78df25fa3408cce2d0955e
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Title
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Spencer, Geoffrey Charles
G C Spencer
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Leading aircraftsman Geoffrey Spencer (b.1925, 1735606 Royal Air Force). He served as a flight mechanic and fitter with 49 Squadron at RAF Fiskerton and 189 Squadron at RAF Fulbeck.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-01-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Spencer, GC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: This is an interview for International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive between Harry Bartlett and Geoffrey Charles,
GS: Spencer.
HB: Spencer. We’re at Sutton Coldfield. It’s the 23rd of January 2019. Right Geoff, the floor’s yours, so I understand you come from this sort of area anyway, before the war.
GB: Well I were born in Birmingham and I lived in Erdington before I moved to Sutton Coalfield.
HB: Right.
GS: But I joined the RAF from when I lived in Erdington and the first place I went to was Cardington for eight weeks’ square bashing and then they moved me to Cosford, RAF Cosford and I did a flight mechanic’s course.
HB: You know before you joined, did you actually go to school in Erdington?
GS: Oh yeah, when I was in Erdington, from when I was fifteen, I joined the Air Training Corps and I did three years with the Air Training Corp prior to going in to the RAF.
HB: So did you get called up or did you volunteer?
GS: I volunteered.
HB: Why did you volunteer?
GS: I don’t know, because they called me, one day after me eighteenth birthday, which I thought was a bit naughty! But that’s it, they sent me there. But anyway -
HB: Sorry, where was your ATC unit?
GS: At Dunlop, Erdington, Dunlop, the big Dunlop factory there, which is still there, part of it and we did all our Air Training Corp training which was a Sunday parade and whatever we did in the week, taking exams and things to get what they call PNB status which was pilot, bomb aimer and bomb aimer and you had to take various exams to pass that exam and you were given a proficiency badge then, when you’ve acquired that, and then you had to wait around and we went to various squadrons, RAF squadrons, Swinderby was one, you know Swinderby, don’t you.
HB: I do, I do.
GS: And we also, oh where else, oh, Fradley, RAF Fradley.
HB: Don’t know Fradley, no.
GS: Litchfield.
HB: Oh right!
GS: 27 OTU that was. I went to that one.
HB: Ah, right! So when you did the ATC training, did you get to fly?
GS: Yes, we did fly. Actually we flew from, in Wellington Bombers when we were at Fradley, time expired Wellington bombers, the wings flapped, they were terrible things, and we went up without chutes. we used to just go down to the airfield at night and cadge flights. And then after that I flew a lot when I was on the squadron at Fiskerton, and I also flew in York aircraft. When, when we flew out to, to Singapore, we flew out by York aircraft from Lyneham, which is still going apparently, but it took five days.
HB: Yeah, I can imagine. So you did your ATC training, you got called up, what were mum and dad doing at the time?
GS: My father was a toolmaker and I worked for him as an apprentice.
HB: Ah right. Had he got his own business?
GS: He’d got his own business, yeah. Not a very big business, but it was a business, then in 1950 he sold it all and moved down to Cornwall, farming.
HB: So your mum and dad are there, you’ve been called up a day after your eighteenth birthday.
Nicola: He’d volunteered to go. Wasn’t called up.
GS: I volunteered for the RAF, yes. I’ve got a sister but she was in the ATS.
HB: Right. Is she older than you, is she older than you?
GS: Yes, three years older than me.
HB: That would explain it. So you go and report, and they say here’s your travel warrant.
GS: Yep, I volunteered at Dale End in Birmingham, right in the centre, that’s it. Then, I say, went to Cardington, eight weeks square bashing and then I went to Cosford and did a flight mechanics course. I don’t know whether you know, but in the RAF there were five trades starting with Group One which was the expert and Group Two which my lot, flight mechanics. Three, four and five you finished up with the bog cleaners, you know, yeah, that was group five, they didn’t do anything. Well from Cosford I went to Fiskerton, 49 Squadron. And I was put into the hangars there servicing the Lancasters, I did a fifty hour service. And from there I was sent out on the flights, B Flight I was on, servicing the Lancasters before they flew on ops. You’re okay, getting all this down are you?
HB: Yep, it’s, I just have to keep an eye on the batteries, that’s all, Geoff.
GS: At Fiskerton. And I used to fly there, used to fly at night time. You had to sign a form, Form 700, to say that you’d serviced the aircraft and you were satisfied. And the pilots invariably said have you signed the 700, yes I have to, said right go and get a parachute, you’re flying with me, if you’ve serviced the aircraft, I want to make quite sure.
HB: His guarantee then!
GS: That was the guarantee. I used to fly that was it. Anyway I used to watch them go out every night. Count how many came back and there was always a few missing.
HB: How did you feel about that?
GS: Not very happy. And then, from Fiskerton, they had FIDO. Do you remember that? You remember FIDO?
HB: Well, I remember it, but some people don’t, what was FIDO.
GS: FIDO was two pipelines joining along the runway which they set alight, which cleared the fog.
Nicola: With fuel dad, was it? Did it, was it fuel?
GS: Hundred octane fuel they used, I don’t know how many thousand gallons every time. One time we went to nearby Waddington, you know that don’t you, doing engine change on a Lancaster and then the pilot said well I’m on ops tomorrow so I’ll fly you back, and during the time from Waddington to Fiskerton, which was only about ten mile, the fog came down and the pilot said - he phoned down the ops tower - and they said well we’ll light FIDO for you, which they did. But the thing is when the fog clears it creates a heat haze, and the pilot said it’s gonna be a bumpy landing.
HB: Oh no!
GS: So we made the approach and he said the alternative, he said, I shall have to crash land it. And the sergeant that was with me at the time, he said, if you do that, we’ve just done an engine change, he said you’ll have to change the bloody lot! [Laughter] Which was quite true. Anyway, he made a very bumpy landing, the brakes failed, so we turned off the runway at about fifty mile an hour and he says hold on we might not be able to stop, but he stopped right in front of the watch tower. And at that time, back at Fiskerton the squadron split up. 49 Squadron went to Syerston, you know Syerston, and 189 Squadron which I was seconded to went to Fulbeck, which was south of Waddington. That’s where you’ve got that bit mixed up I think. [Sounds of paper rustling]
HB: And that was with 189 Squadron.
GS: Yeah. Who were also at Bardney.
HB: Yeah, that’s sort of, answered that sort of little hiccup there.
GS: Well from there they sent me on a Fitter One course at Henlow, which puts it in the right order.
HB: I’m just interested in that Geoff. When you went to RAF Cosford, they would train you as a flight mechanic on all the various engines, the Merlins, the Hercules, you know, all those engines. So when you actually got posted out, you were working on, what sort of engines were you working on then, with the Lancs?
GS: Merlins.
HB: You were working on the Merlins.
GS: Merlin 20s.
HB: So what was the difference between doing your training as a flight mechanic and your training as a fitter?
GS: I don’t know, it was just more sophisticated, more intricate details on the Merlin engine. For instance, I can remember doing a block change on the Merlin engine, which if you’d been a flight mechanic was unheard of. We were in, one of the aircraft came into the main hangar and we did a, and a V12, and we did a block change, which is quite intricate.
HB: So the block is the bit where the pistons go up and down.
GS: That’s right, that’s it, six on each, which was quite a big job doing that. Which we managed okay and that’s when after Fulbeck they sent me to Henlow on that Fitter One’s course. Where did I go from there?
HB: Did you have, obviously you passed the course.
GS: Yeah, I did, I passed with honours on that actually, I did quite well.
HB: Did you get promoted and more money?
GS: I got promoted; I got my props. I was an LAC, so I was quite chuffed with that. And then I went to Holmsley South, now that’s a place in the New Forest, right down the south. I was only there a month, then I went to Duxford for about a month, which was on Spitfires.
HB: Was this all the while working on the engines?
GS: Yes.
HB: For just like a month.
GS: I was a Group one Tradesman then see, I was more useful to them. And then, now where did I go, oh, I went to a place called Hinton in the Hedges which is in Oxfordshire. And when I go there - no aircraft - and the whole airfield was full of airc – of lorries and all the maintenance stuff and what they were doing, they were, all the airfield’s completely covered in all sorts of lorries and all sorts, aircraft carriers and all this sort of business and they’d bring them round into the main hangar, which was still there, service them and put them out back into the airfield and eventually they were dispersed to the place that they wanted them. But, I was wasting my time there, of course.
HB: I was going to say what were they using you for then Geoff?
GS: Well they were using me for, to going out on my bicycle to any of the lorries that were, various types of lorries, bring them into hangars, spray them, blokes spraying, and going out again.
HB: Group One tradesman doing that.
GS: I was a Group One tradesman.
HB: Just slightly moving that cause it’s just making a bit of a noise.
GS: That’s better. Absolutely fine. Yes.
HB: I’m just. So you’re only there a short time then, I presume.
GS: Yep, and then from there, I went to Lyneham and they posted me out to Singapore.
HB: How much, how much notice did you get of that?
GS: Well I don’t know really, I never took time of notice.
HB: So what year do you think that was about?
GS: That was late ’44, because, or late, that’s right, because at that time I as posted out there, went to Lyneham, they dropped the bomb; the atomic bomb.
HB: So that would be ‘45 then.
GS:’ 45. That’s it, that’s it. They dropped the bomb and I flew out to Singapore.
HB: Just take you back to you know, Cosford, Fiskerton and all them. What sort of leave did you get?
GS: Well the usual leave thirty six hour pass, forty eight hour leave. I think I had exp, expo leave before I flew out to Singapore. I think I had fourteen days.
HB: Expo?
GS: Yeah. What do they call it?
HB: Debark? De, Debarkation?
GS: Embarkation!
HB: Embarkation leave. Oh right. So what did you do with your leave, did you come home?
GS: Oh yeah.
HB: Came home. You go to the local dance hall.
GS: Local dance hall and all that.
HB: In your uniform.
GS: I met my wife there, at the local masonic, you know. I had an incident when I were flying out to Singapore. There were two York aircraft went out and there were twenty blokes in each aircraft and we knew each other, forty odd blokes, and we tossed up which aircraft we’d go in. We went to Malta, Habbaniya, what’s, I forget the one in northern India, and then Calcutta. Dumdum, Dumdum airfield, and I elected to go on the first aircraft, on the York that was going to Singapore and the second aircraft didn’t get there: it flew into the Indian Ocean. So that was why, sheer luck, is why I’m still here. And then I did twelve months in Singapore. I had to remuster again then because they didn’t want aircraft fitters then, so I had to remuster as a Fitter Marine and I was on high speed launches wandering around the East Indies, which was quite a good time.
HB: So you went from Lyneham, you flew down through Malta, Middle East, into,
GS: Singapore.
HB: The northern India one and then Singapore. You’re based at Singapore. So you were in what, were you in tents or in quarters?
GS: In quarters, I’ve got some pictures of them actually. We were initially sent out, when we’d gone from Lyneham they told me I was on what they called Tiger Force, which was going to Okinawa which was the nearest point for bombing Tokyo, but because I was in Singapore I didn’t want that because the war had finished with Japan then.
HB: So they just literally took you off aircraft fitting and said -
GS: Fitter marine!
HB: Fitter marine. That’s, what was the big difference with the engines then?
GS: Phew, terrible. There were three Peregrine engines inside the high speed launches, one either side and one at the back of you and it was a hundred and forty degrees in there, so you could only spend ten minutes at a time. When they were going at full throttle, which was thirty knots, you hadn’t got much chance, so you had to come up after ten minutes. It was horrible.
Nicola: What about it, do you remember when you fell in the water dad.
HB: You went overboard did you?
Nicola: You were on, someone backed in to you. Go on.
GS: Well what happened, I was on the quayside, there was a drop in the water of about thirty foot. Some western oriental gentleman I called them, didn’t call them that, backing a lorry up to me he must have seen me, I was looking out to sea and the next minute [slap sound] it hit me and I was in the sea and fortunately there was an officer standing there and he galloped down into the water and dragged me out. Cause it was only about eighteen inches of water.
HB: You were lucky.
GS: It knocked me out virtually. I came round and he said you had a bit of luck there, didn’t you airman. I said yeah, did, I’m glad you got me out. He said look down there, you see all those snakes, he said, they’re all bloody poisonous. [Chuckle] So, sick quarters, and I was okay.
Nicola: You never saw the guy, did you from the truck.
GS: No, the bloke took off, never saw him again.
Nicola: He knew he was in trouble, didn’t he.
HB: So you’re working round, all round Singapore, so you must have had a few trips out to the islands.
GS: Oh yes. Up into Malaya, Penang and Java, Sumatra of course they’ve all changed their names now, haven’t they. So I had twelve months. When I was demobbed, they, I came back by sea. I had to go to a transit camp in Malaya and then came back by sea and it took a month! [Paper shuffling]
Nicola: A month’s cruise then.
GS: I came back on that!
HB: So that’s the, I’ve done it again, I’ve take them off.
GS: Can you spell that?
HB: The Johan van Barneveld.
GS: That’s it.
HB: Looks like bit like an ocean going cruise ship, doesn’t it!
GS: It was only about sixteen thousand ton!
HB: Oh, small!
Nicola: Dad, didn’t you see one of the little boats that you’d serviced, didn’t you see somewhere recently.
GS: Oh yes, I went to Henlow, you know, to the museum there. As you went in, to go in to the museum, on the front was an air sea rescue and the actual [emphasis] one that I sailed in when I was at Singapore.
HB: The same boat?
GS: The same boat, same number: 2528.
Nicola: You didn’t tell them though did you.
GS: No. I knew.
HB: Wow! That’s, so there was a group of you there, you obviously got on well, you know, and so you’d have had to take your leave while you were in Singapore, if you had leave.
GS: I don’t think we did. I was at Seletar, in Singapore. There’s the -
HB: Of course it’s got the flying boats, hasn’t it.
GS: Oh yes. There was a Sunderland. That’s a high speed launch, those sort of things.
HB: So these, this photograph album, we’re going to need to copy all this.
GS: Are you?
HB: There’s one you’d broken.
GS: Yeah, that’s a spit that crash landed. There I am again.
HB: Yes. We’re going to need to copy these I think, Geoff.
GS: These are the -
HB: They are the quarters.
GS: They are the quarters. The Japs had them before we, after, before we got there, first thing they do took all the doors off the bogs so you had no privacy at all. [Laugh]
HB: Ah, right. So, we’ve got you to Singapore, you’ve been on your high speed launches, I think what we’ll do, we’ll just have two minutes pause, right, in the interview, just while get our breath back and then we’ll come back to them. Right, we’ve switched back on, we’ve had a little bit of a break and Nicola, Geoff’s daughter’s just gone off to work, so we’ll just recommence the interview and so we’ve got to the demob in Singapore and all that business, but can we just take you back, back to your airfields, because at one point you did something a bit.
GS: When I was at Fulbeck, we moved from Fiskerton to Fulbeck and I was on duty crew and we had a Stirling bomber come in to be refuelled, and me, being completely new to Stirling bombers, went up in the cockpit, turned the fuel line which I thought was the one, an elephant’s trunk came down and deposit about a hundred gallon of fuel on to the tarmac. [Sigh] And we had a bomb happy, as we used to call them, flak happy, sergeant flight engineer, saw what I’d done, he came up, he said don’t worry about it, so I shoved this fuel line back up into the aircraft and screwed the cock on. I said what about all the fuel on the deck and he said don’t worry about it, so he started the engine up, which in itself was bad enough, it blew the fuel away cause we were way [emphasis] out on dispersal, miles from anywhere you could say, but when Stirling bombers with Hercules engines start up, flames come out, and if it, that bloody aircraft had gone up in bloody flames, so would I!
HB: Blimey! You’d have still been paying for it! Good grief Geoff!
GS: We were on dispersal which was about as far side of the airfield from the Headquarters from about a mile and a half away, this was near Newark, Fulbeck is quite near Newark, and that’s what happened and that was an incident. I told my daughter about it and she was amazed, and I got away with it.
HB: You must have had a few close shaves though.
GS: Oh yeah, I did. Flying the aircraft, we did land with one Lancaster, when we were, where were we? I think it was at Fiskerton, and the undercart folded up and it broke the Lanc up actually, broke the imagine what it did to the props and that.
HB: Was that landing on the main runway or did you get on the grass?
GS: On the main runway, we were going along the runway and the undercart, hydraulics, it just collapsed, and that was dead dodgy. I remember that., but apart from that.
HB: So where would you have been, when that happened, in the Lanc, where would you have been sat?
GS: Usually on the flight engineer’s place because, usually, the flight engineer nearly always went with the pilot on, what do they call it? Air test or fighter affiliation and [cough] that’s when that happened, the undercart folded up, just the one wheel. It did a lot of damage. Props of course went on the port side and that was it.
HB: You got away with that one as well.
GS: I got away with that one as well. But then, from that one as well. And then from then on I made sure I picked the time I went, flew, went on the air test. [Chuckle]
HB: Why was that?
GS: I was getting scared to be quite honest. Yeah. There was another incident we had, I’ve forgotten what it was now. Something to do with Lancasters, but normally was a wonderful aircraft, you know. We had several crews that did a full tour of ops at Fiskerton.
HB: Yeah. Did you, when you were at Fiskerton, did you always maintain the same aircraft or was it just parade in the morning and get one allocated?
GS: When I was servicing them in the hangar, which was called the maintenance hangar. Different aircraft came in to be serviced. Fifty hour service, hundred hour service, hundred and fifty and then a major, major, but when I was on the flight, when you’re on the B Flight, which I went out on, I had to do the flight and, and sign the Form 700 which was meant that you, they didn’t all [emphasis] say you come, you can come fly with me, that was preservation by the pilot, if I’m going to die you’re going to die with me sort of business!
HB: Good incentive to keep you up to speed.
GS: Up to scratch. Cause I can remember quite well, I serviced one Lancaster, I remember it even now, I was on the port engine which you had to get a, you had a big service ladder to get up to it, and I had to fill it, the Lancaster engine got an oil at the back, thirty six gallon, and I went up to check the height of it, put the cap on as I thought and came down, thought nothing of it. And then the regular B Flight mechanic, he said, “everything all right?” I said yeah, he said, “I put that filler cap on properly for you.”
HB: Ooh.
GS: And there’s another incident. I thanked him profusely, I obviously hadn’t locked it properly.
HB: Oh wow!
GS: That could have been trouble. If he’d gone up, flight, and the filler cap had come off -
HB: Difficult.
GS: And I didn’t go on flight affiliation as they called it. They’d have a Lanc going up on air test and they’d have a Spitfire or Hurricane doing aerobatics, simulating getting at the rear gunner. Well I went, I only went up once on that because for the only time, I was sick, sick as a dog and I thought bugger flight affiliation from now on!
HB: So fighter affiliation wasn’t one of your favourites!
GS: No it wasn’t!
HB: So this is when they practiced doing, did they call it corkscrew?
GS: That’s right.
HB: And you were in there when they did that.
GS: I was in the back, I was in the rear turret at the time. It was horrible.
HB: Right, so we’ve gone through, we’ve gone through the squadrons and you’ve gone to Singapore and you’re going to be demobbed and they’ve put you on the troop ship, in Malaya, how long did it take you to get home?
GS: One month. I can remember it ever so well. We went from Singapore to Ceylon as it was then, I’ve forgotten the name of the town, and from then on we flew, we sailed from Ceylon up the Red Sea to Port Said and then across the Med and it was four weeks, and of course all the, everybody’s being demobbed on board that ship, so I can’t remember any details.
HB: Was it, so it wasn’t like one big long, month long party then?
GS: Oh no, oh no. I slept on deck, everybody else was, well most of them, slept in hammocks. And I couldn’t get on in a hammock, so I slept on deck and that was it and I went to East Kirkby and was demobbed.
HB: So you landed back in England.
GS: Southampton.
HB: At Southampton, bunged you on a train.
GS: Train. Up to East Kirkby. Demobbed and I was a civilian.
HB: Did you get your suit?
GS: Yes. Got me suit, and a yellow tie. [Laugh] I remember that ever so well.
HB: Were you still a single man at this time, Geoff?
GS: Yes, oh yes. I was twenty one going on twenty two.
HB: But you’d met your wife before you went out to Singapore. Sorry, what was your wife called?
GS: Hazel.
HB: Hazel, right. So you met Hazel when you were in your uniform looking smart in the dance hall. So you’d obviously been writing, in the force.
GS: Yes. I was running two women at the time! [Laugh]
HB: Were you! Were you now!
GS: I got rid of the one.
HB: Ah right. Was that, that was another one back here was it?
GS: Yeah. They were both back here. I remember I had the two photographs on the side of me bed, on the side of me billet in Singapore, and I used to say to the bloke which do you think’s the best out of those two and they always pointed to Hazel, she’s the homely type they used to say.
HB: Oooh!
GS: And that was it, I married her. We were married sixty three years.
HB: That’s good.
GS: Good going isn’t it.
HB: It is, it is. So you came back to East Kirkby, you’ve been demobbed, back home to?
GS: Back with my father in engineering.
HB: Yep. That’s still in Erdington.
GS: Yeah, and then, that’s right, my dad sold his business moved down to Falmouth as a farmer which didn’t work out: you’ve got to be born into farming and he did ten years before he came back north again.
HB: So what did you do. I mean he went down there in 1950 did he, did you say?
GS: Yes.
HB: You’d stayed in till 47, hadn’t you?
GS: Yes.
HB: So, once he went down there what did you do, did you?
GS: I went. We’d got another, one of dad’s younger [emphasis] brothers, he was in the shoe trade, and I had the option then and I went into the shoe trade for three years. It wasn’t very pleasant because he wasn’t a very pleasant man to work for, so I stayed with him for three years then I went back into toolmaking. I worked for Cincinnati, the big American company, making milling machines and all that.
HB: You obviously enjoyed that.
GS: Yeah. Better it was, yeah.
HB: And that was you till, what, through to retirement I suppose.
GS: Yes, I suppose it was. No! I stayed in the tool making trade, I worked for a company just down there on the estate for twenty seven years.
HB: Wow!
GS: Tool making.
HB: So out of your, you know, I mean it was a difficult time, I mean the war had been running for three, nearly four years when you went in, when you actually got called up, and you’re living in Birmingham which was a big target.
GS: Oh, it was!
HB: So what was it, what, before you joined the RAF what it like living under this threat, really?
GS: Before I went into the RAF, well Birmingham was bombed quite badly, like Coventry. If they missed Coventry it was Birmingham, because all the car industry as you know, is in this area and we were a real target because at that time dad worked for Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory, which is just down there, making Spitfires, building Spitfires and he worked in the tool room there before he started on his own. That was quite a job.
HB: So where you were living at Erdington, I mean they had bombing in that area, didn’t they.
GS: Oh yes, quite a bit of bombing yeah. We were actually, there was only bombs locally, but none actually where I lived in Hollandy Road, there wan’t much. You’re going back seventy years now you know.
HB: That’s right.
GS: Trying to remember all these things.
HB: Yeah, I mean mum and dad obviously, you know, you’ve got your sister, yourself, you know, there’d be that worry wouldn’t there. What did you do in the evening? Did you ever do fire watching or anything like that?
GS: Yeah. When I was fourteen, when I left school, I was fire watching in the centre of Birmingham. I’d got a job, just a normal job in the, in tool making, er in the shoe industry and they got me fire watching. They gave me a stirrup pump and a bucket of water and go up on the top floor of this building and if they drop incendiaries: put ‘em out. Fourteen years old.
HB: Good grief!
GS: I remember that quite clearly.
HB: Did you leave school, cause obviously you’re at work then, at fourteen, did you leave school with any certificates?
GS: No, I didn’t get School Certificate. I left, I elected not to go to secondary school, which was from fourteen to sixteen, so I left at fourteen from the ordinary council school. I lived at Yardley then, on the south side of Birmingham.
HB: Right, right. Of all your time in the RAF, in Bomber Command Geoff, what do you think was your best time, what was your best bit of being in the RAF?
GS: Well, the activity when I was at Fiskerton. Oh yes, definitely. The fitter’s courses and flight mechanics courses was a chore. Just hard work it was really, but when I get, when I was at Fiskerton and also Fulbeck, and Waddington, which I was there. Waddington was the place to get to because it was an peace, it was an established squadron none of this nissen hut business or anything of that, and that was the place to go. But I wasn’t there long enough to appreciate it. It’s still there, isn’t it. I noticed that when I went to – yeah.
HB: So what, we’ve said that was something you enjoyed, was being busy, and you’ve got all your mates and whatnot, so what did you do, when you weren’t on leave, what did you do for entertainment when you were on the squadron?
GS: We used to go to the camp cinema and, thing I noticed mostly [emphasis] about the camp cinema, you went in there and you couldn’t see the screen for the smoke, cause everybody smoked at that time and I didn’t smoke and me eyes come out and they were watering permanently after that.
HB: Oh right. So that moves us on. What was, what do you think was the worst bit of your service?
GS: When I was at Holmesly South in the New Forest it was my twenty first birthday and I wanted a forty eight hour pass because me wife, me mother had got a big party organised for me. So I went to the SWO, Station Warrant Officer, and asked for a forty hour pass and he refused it. And I remember then I thought, when I get back into civvie street I’ll have you. [Laugh] Never did of course, but I remember it ever so well. He refused me a forty eight hour pass. He knew what it was for but didn’t show any compassion whatsoever.
HB: And what did you think after the war, when the war ended, what did you think the sort of feeling was about Bomber Command?
GS: [Sigh] Well, they lost so many men, in ’42 onwards to the, till D-Day, fifty five thousand men were killed, weren’t they. I, I thought that was absolutely terrible. All the aircrew, I got to knew them, when I was at Fiskerton, by name and they’d go on ops and didn’t come back. It was a horrible feeling all the while. Because at the time, when I was, now where was I, oh yes, at the end of my fitter’s course, yeah, you fixed for time, at, on the fitter’s course at Hen, Hendon, that’s right, near Bedford it is.
HB: Halford?
GS: Henlow, not Hendon, Henlow, near Bedford. I applied to go on a flight engineer’s course, which was accepted, at St Athan. I was posted and I got there: what have you come for? I said I’ve come to do an FE’s course. They said we don’t want any more, so they sent me back. Which was just as well because if I’d have done a flight engineer’s course, I’d have been there and gone on ops, I wouldn’t be here now, would I? There were so many casualties. I can remember one time we lost ninety eight aircraft one night, on ops. Lancasters, mostly.
HB: Hmm. That’s a lot of men.
GS: Well Lancaster aircraft, they’d only got, they’d got four guns in the rear turret, two on the upper turret and two in the front, but they were pathetic compared with German aircraft which had got canons. Twice the fire power. So that was the thing about Lancasters. But apart from that they had the biggest bombload, they could fly at twenty two thousand feet and none of the others couldn’t. If you had a relative that was on Halifaxes, they weren’t a patch on Lancasters, during the war. And Stirlings, they were a joke they were. The rear gunner in a Stirling his expectation of life was about a fortnight. [Whistle] It was awful, wasn’t it.
HB: Hmm. Yeah. So the, when, did you ever do any sort of like Cook’s Tours when you came back? You did?
GS: Yes, I did the one, over Germany. It was a revelation that was. When you flew at about ten thousand feet, something like that, and the debris, there was nothing left, of any of the towns. We didn’t fly over Berlin, but we did all the other ones.
HB: How did you feel about that?
GS: Terrible. You know, you thought why was this, all this necessary? That’s the way you looked at it, you know, because Nazis were the pigs, but an ordinary German, he was just another bloke to me. And that’s the way I feel about that.
HB: Difficult.
GS: Was difficult wan’t there. Is there anything I’ve missed on this?
HB: I was going to say do you want to have a look at your list Geoff, is there, see if we’ve covered what you want to talk about.
GS: [Pause] Karachi was the place I went to in India, on the west coast and then Calcutta on the east coast. Yes. I enjoyed me time when I was in the Air Training Corps 1940 to ’43. Fradley, Cosford. I did a week at Cosford in the Air Training Corps. Swinderby and Bovington. Bovington were, I’ve forgotten what aircraft they were. Twin engined, and I know that you had to wind the undercart up, ninety eight turns, I remember that because they hadn’t got hydraulic, retracting. Hinton in the Hedges was the place that really was a waste of time, with all those aircraft, all those, all those lorries and things. I can remember once, I had to go out on dispersal to bring, bring a lorry in for servicing and I got in it and started it up. I noticed it was in front wheel drive, so I moved out and it dropped on the deck – there was no back wheels on it! [laughter] I just got out and left it. So that’s another place I’d have, could have been a naughty boy! [cough]
HB: Perhaps you were as well you didn’t stay there that long!
GS: It was. Only there about a month. I got promotion while I was there. I remember ever so well. The sergeant, I was after me props, I’d got me one and I was after me LAC, and he asked a question. He said, “What do you know about errors of articulation?” Tell you, I remember this, and I said yes it was there, the Hercules, aircraft where the con rods were in a different position every stroke of the engine. “Good,” he said,” you’ve got that.” And that got me me props.
HB: Did it?
GS: Yes!
HB: So that made you a Leading Aircraftsman.
GS: Group One Leading Aircraftsman, which was quite good. But I should have got me tapes when I was doing the flight engineer’s course. But that was it.
HB: Well I think, it’s quarter past twelve, and I think we’ve sort of come to bit of a natural conclusion Geoff.
GS: Yes.
HB: So, I’m going to terminate the interview now while we just sort your photographs out and how we’re gonna handle them. I want to thank you, honestly, it’s been a really [emphasis] enjoyable interview. You said to me in the break, oh we’ve been all over the place. It doesn’t matter.
GS: It’s very disjointed.
HB: What you’ve told us is important, and it’s also interesting. And we’ll forget quietly about pushing the wrong button for the fuel for the Stirling! So thank you very much.
GS: Well, I wonder about that flight engineer, he was flak happy as they called it during the war. And the fact that we got away with it, I said to him afterwards, I said, what about if, we’d have had flames out the Hercules, we must have had some, but didn’t see them, well that would have been curtains, I said bloody will and I’ll have been with you!
HB: Oh dear! Right, well thanks ever so much Geoff.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Geoffrey Charles Spencer
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-01-23
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ASpencerGC190123, PSpencerGC1901
Description
An account of the resource
Geoffrey Spencer grew up in Birmingham and worked with his father in tool making, carrying out fire watching as a youngster. He joined the Air Force aged 18 in August 1943. After training he served as a flight mechanic and fitter with 49 Squadron at RAF Fiskerton and 189 Squadron at RAF Fulbeck. He worked in the maintenance hanger and on the flights and describes a crash landing in a Lancaster after an air test and an accident while refuelling a Stirling. He was posted to Singapore in 1945 serviced engines on high speed launches. He was de-mobbed in July 1947 and worked in the tool making industry in the UK until he retired.after the war.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Singapore
England--Bedfordshire
England--Birmingham
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Format
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00:53:04 audio recording
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
189 Squadron
49 Squadron
bombing
civil defence
Cook’s tour
crash
demobilisation
entertainment
FIDO
fitter engine
flight mechanic
fuelling
ground crew
ground personnel
home front
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Cardington
RAF Cosford
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Henlow
RAF Swinderby
Spitfire
Stirling
training
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1147/11704/PStonemanMW1801.2.jpg
509d5227e21a19d7e4a5cb777fffce65
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1147/11704/AStonemanMW180605.1.mp3
5383088c11d268370aacf1062d3a73e3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stoneman, Maurice
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Maurice Stoneman (1923 - 2018). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 57 and 9 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stoneman, MW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Let me introduce myself. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr Maurice Stoneman [buzz]
Other: In Farnborough.
DK: in Farnborough.
MS: [unclear] Cameron.
DK: I’ll, I’ll just put that there. The date is the, where are we? 5th of —
Other: 5th of June.
DK: The 5th of June 2018.
Other: Right. So I’m going to have a cigar.
DK: Ok.
Other: I’ll be back in a minute Mog.
DK: Ok. So, can, can you remember much about your time in the RAF?
MS: Very well. I knew my crew. And from there I went to the parachute school.
DK: Right.
MS: Excuse me.
DK: That’s ok. Take your time. It’s alright.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Is this your crew here?
MS: That’s the crew. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So which one’s you?
MS: There’s me.
DK: That’s you.
MS: Yeah. There’s the skipper. And he, he’s no longer with us. He had a prang.
DK: Really.
MS: He was crop spraying and ran into a tree.
DK: Oh dear. Can you remember his name?
MS: Yeah. Johnny Ludford.
DK: Donny Lodford?
MS: Ludford.
DK: Ludford. Johnny Ludford. Right. Ok.
MS: Yeah. That was a headmaster of a school in Edinburgh.
DK: Right.
MS: And he was an Eton schoolboy that one.
DK: Right.
MS: And that was Buzz. He’s just passed away.
DK: Right.
MS: I don’t know what happened. There was Canadian. I know.
DK: That’s you.
MS: There. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I don’t know what that bloke’s doing now.
DK: So, so that’s you. You. Right. Going on.
MS: That’s me there. That was our mid-upper.
DK: Right. So you were the flight engineer.
MS: I was the flight engineer. Yeah.
DK: Right. So that’s the flight engineer. You. That’s the pilot.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Mid-upper gunner.
MS: Yeah. Navigator.
DK: Navigator. Yeah.
MS: Bomb aimer.
DK: Bomb aimer.
MS: Wireless op.
DK: Wireless operator.
MS: Rear gunner.
DK: Right. Can you, can you remember their names?
MS: No. No.
DK: No. Ok.
MS: Johnny Ludford. Buzz, wireless op. Woody, he was the schoolboy. He attended [pause] what was that place near Windsor?
DK: Eton.
MS: Eton.
DK: Eton. He went to Eton did he?
MS: He was an Eton schoolboy.
DK: Right.
MS: And, and a very posh talk, you know and we used to pull his leg. But he flew. He flew in to a tree. He was low flying crop spraying and there should have been two on board. One was a lookout. He was the pilot and he hit a tree.
DK: In South Africa. And was killed. Oh dear.
MS: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know which school but he was the headmaster of that school.
DK: That’s the navigator.
MS: Yeah. And that’s the wireless op.
DK: Right.
MS: And the rear gunner. Canadian. Mid-upper gunner.
DK: Right.
MS: Flight engineer.
DK: Right. Ok. So, can you, can you recall which squadrons you were with?
MS: Yeah. 57.
DK: Just making sure we’re ok.
MS: 57. Yeah.
DK: Right.
MS: At East Kirkby.
DK: East Kirkby. Right.
MS: And I remember we were near Boston and we used to come across the North Sea around there at Boston. What did they call it?
DK: The Boston Stump.
MS: The Stump. Yeah. The Stump. Go round, round, we used to, and around Lincoln Cathedral and land. But when we saw Boston Stump we said we’re home.
DK: Home.
MS: We made it.
DK: So, how many operations did you fly?
MS: Twenty nine.
DK: Twenty nine.
MS: They wouldn’t let, they wouldn’t [pause] but I laid, one part I laid mines.
DK: Right.
MS: In the Konigsberg Canal and we went low and laid these mines. And there was two German warships there. Gneisenau [pause] I can’t think of the other.
DK: Scharnhorst. Was it the Scharnhorst?
MS: There was two warships.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: Gneisenau. And I went through this this morning in my mind and now I’ve forgotten it.
DK: Was it the Prince Eugen? The Prince Eugen?
MS: Yeah.
DK: Ah right. The Prince Eugen.
MS: Eugen. Yeah. Eugen. Yeah.
DK: So, so you actually saw those two battleships.
MS: Yeah. There was two of them and they were trapped in there for three weeks. Couldn’t get out because we were laying mines there. And we went down that low and off to port across Poland all the Polish people were —
DK: Waving to you.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Waving.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So you were that low. Yeah.
MS: We were that low dropping food and we were that low we were [pause] that middle picture there.
DK: Ah.
MS: Yeah
DK: Let’s have a look.
MS: The Duke of Edinburgh gave me a copy of that.
DK: So, that was —
MS: For each of the crew.
DK: So, that was, that was Operation Manna.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. How many? How many Manna trips did you do?
MS: Altogether I did twenty nine. Plus laying the mines. And thirty one.
DK: Thirty one. Is it ok if I have a look at your logbook?
MS: You’re very welcome.
DK: Thank you very much.
MS: I’m afraid it’s got a bit worn.
DK: It’s a bit old now, isn’t it?
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, you had a nickname of Mog then, did you?
MS: Mog. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: The crew didn’t call me Mog.
DK: No.
MS: It’s the people here call me Mog.
DK: Right. Ok. So, so you were 1943 then. I’m reading from the logbook. So you were with 57 squadron.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And your pilot was Ludford. L U D F O R D.
MS: Yeah. Johnny Ludford.
DK: Johnny.
MS: Johnny Ludford, and he, as I say he was crop spraying in Africa and he flew in to a tree.
DK: Oh dear. Was he, was he a good pilot?
MS: Yeah.
DK: You felt, felt happy with him? Did you?
MS: Yeah. Because my seat was next to his and I operated the, Johnny just used to steer it.
DK: Right.
MS: And I’d operate the throttles and the rev counters. I did all that. Otherwise it would have been monotonous.
DK: Yeah.
MS: But I sat next to Johnny. I met his, his father who took that photograph of the crew.
DK: Right. So, so you, you and the pilot had to work as a team did you?
MS: We certainly did. Yeah.
DK: So he’s, he’s controlling the aircraft and you’re controlling the engines.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Right.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So you had to know what the engines were doing then, did you?
MS: Yeah. Well, he would start them off at the take off, and then when we got to a certain speed I would follow his hand up with all four engines.
DK: So you’d follow his hand up on the throttles.
MS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And then, and then you took over the throttle controls then.
MS: Yeah. He would, he had to steer it.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Now, I controlled the throttles until we were airborne and get the flaps up, and got the revs out.
DK: So did, is it something you could still today do you think? Could you get into a Lancaster today and take off?
MS: I could do it I think.
DK: Yeah.
MS: But the controls are a bit more modern.
DK: Right. So just, I’m just looking at your logbook here.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, it’s 1943, and November the 5th and you’re doing a lot of training flights by the looks of it. Training.
MS: Doing what?
DK: Training flights.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Bullseye.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Remember a bullseye?
MS: Yeah. I enjoyed that actually.
DK: So what was a bullseye then?
MS: I’d sit next to the pilot and I would operate the throttles. Everything. He would steer it.
DK: And on your right you’ve got the controls to the engines, haven’t you? Dials.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what, what did you have to do with the dials?
MS: Well, usually once we got airborne I didn’t have to do much.
DK: Right.
MS: But I’d pull up the flaps. The undercart. Yeah. I did all that. The flaps.
DK: Right.
MS: Undercart. But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the flying side.
DK: Did you, did you control the flaps and the undercarriage when you landed as well?
MS: Yeah.
DK: So as you’re landing.
MS: Before —
DK: Johnny’s, Johnny’s controlling it.
MS: That’s right. When we came in to land the skipper would say, ‘Wheels down.’
DK: Put the wheels down.
MS: I’d put the wheels down. The flaps, fifteen when we took off.
DK: So just looking at your logbook you’ve done an operation here. Your first operation to Berlin.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Do you remember? Do you remember going to Berlin?
MS: Nine times.
DK: Nine times.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And what was it like? A trip to Berlin.
MS: You got flak up your bum [laugh] It was dodgy. And one time we landed. I’d got across the North Sea on two engines.
DK: Right.
MS: And then we crash landed in the Wash.
DK: Oh.
MS: In the Wash. And Boston Stump was just over there. And the air sea rescue people were there to pick us up.
DK: Right. Can you remember what happened to the two engines?
MS: Yeah.
DK: Had they been hit by flak?
MS: They were, they were alright. It was the supply. A shell hit the supply.
DK: A shell.
MS: A shell.
MS: Yeah. Ack ack.
DK: Right.
MS: Hit the supply. And so I switched them both off otherwise you’re losing fuel.
DK: So the shell hit the fuel supply and you’re losing fuel so you switch off the engines.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Switched them off. Switched the supply to starboard off.
DK: And, and can you remember much about crashing on the sea then? Because you said you landed in the Wash.
MS: Yeah. On a sandbank.
DK: On a sandbank. Ah. You weren’t actually in the water.
MS: Not actually in the water but RNLI came in and saw we were ok.
DK: Right.
MS: And they took us [pause] from, from 57 Squadron. They came and picked us up. Went to the mess. But we reported it. One of their fighters was shot down.
DK: Right.
MS: And we saw the pilot on a parachute.
DK: Right.
MS: And we reported it and he then came to the mess. He then, he married an English girl [laughs]
DK: So, so he was a German pilot.
MS: German pilot shot down but we took him to the mess.
DK: Right.
MS: And —
DK: He later married an English girl.
MS: He, yeah he married one of the girls there.
DK: Can, can, can you recall where this German aircraft was shot down? Was it over England?
MS: No. The North Sea.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: North Sea. And the RNI, RNLI went and picked him up.
DK: Right. That wasn’t your aircraft that shot him down was it?
MS: No.
DK: No.
MS: No. He was shot down by a Mosquito.
DK: Right.
MS: Yeah. The Mossie had a bit more fuel than the single seater fighter.
DK: Did you have a drink with him in the mess then? Did you?
MS: We did indeed [laughs]
DK: What was it like meeting a German then?
MS: Well, the point is he seemed to know Great Britain. So he weren’t a complete stranger.
DK: Oh.
DK: But he talked good English anyway.
DK: He talked good English. Yeah.
MS: Yeah. We, well, broken English.
DK: It must have been very strange meeting your enemy then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So just looking at your logbook again. So you’d done nine trips to Berlin.
MS: Yeah. Out of all the trips we did nine to Berlin.
DK: Right. And you’ve also got Leipzig. Do you remember going to Leipzig?
MS: Yeah. Leipzig.
DK: And Frankfurt.
MS: Yeah. Leipzig and Frankfurt.
DK: So you got Brunswick on the 14th of January 1944.
MS: Yeah. We bombed a dam.
DK: Oh.
MS: When what’s his name got all the publicity about bursting a dam —
DK: The Dambusters.
MS: We were bombing a dam further over.
DK: They didn’t make a film about you then.
MS: No. Möhne and Eder Dam.
DK: So, I’ve just got here you did an operation to Berlin.
MS: Yeah.
DK: 15th of February 1944. And it says diverted to Swinderby.
MS: Yeah. Swinderby. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember why you had to go there?
MS: Yeah. We lost our brakes.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: And at Swinderby, I think Swinderby [pause] I didn’t think it was Swinderby. Anyway, we touched down at a special aerodrome where they let you touch down, across came out a wire.
DK: Oh right.
MS: On our tail wheel. And that slowed us down.
DK: Oh ok. Ok. And you’ve got on here 19th of February 1944 you’d gone to Leipzig again.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And you’ve written in here, “Junkers 88. No hydraulics, oxygen. Electrical failures.”
MS: Yeah.
DK: Right.
MS: That was the worst raid.
DK: Can you remember that? So you were attacked by a German JU88.
MS: Junkers 88. Yeah.
DK: Can, can you remember much about that?
MS: I remember him coming over the top and he hit the mid-upper gunner and wounded him.
DK: Right.
MS: But we got him back and he was in hospital.
DK: Right.
MS: He didn’t make it.
DK: Oh [pause] So the JU88 attacked you and killed your mid-upper gunner.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Right. You’ve put here brackets, “Shaky do.’’ Is that, is that an understatement? Right. So you remember the attack by the JU88 then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Did your gunners fire back?
MS: Yeah. They, oh yeah. The rear gunner he was really good too. He was quick. And we know the rear gunner got one of the Junkers 88. But in the main the Mosquitoes and what’s the twin boom aircraft?
DK: The Lightning?
MS: Lightning. Yeah. Yeah. The Lightning.
DK: That, that —
MS: Yeah. He got, he came with us and he followed the Junkers 88 and we know that that aircraft pranged in the North Sea.
DK: So it was shot down then. Right. And, and can you remember coming back then ‘cause from Leipzig because your aircraft’s damaged?
MS: Yeah. Yeah. I remember that and Boston. There was a Boston Stump. And we’d go around Boston Stump, around Lincoln Cathedral and touch down.
DK: At East Kirkby. Yeah. So just going through your logbook again you went to Stuttgart twice. Frankfurt. Essen. Nuremberg.
MS: Frankfurt was a difficult one.
DK: Right.
MS: There was a lot of ack ack on the way in.
DK: So I’ve got here Frankfurt. That was on the 22nd of March 1944.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So that was a lot of flak fired.
MS: Yeah. I can’t remember all those dates
DK: No. No. No. No. And you’ve got an interesting one here. It’s the 5th of April 1944. Toulouse.
MS: Toulouse. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And you’ve put here, “Nine tenths target destroyed.”
MS: Yeah.
DK: Was that a successful raid then?
MS: Yeah. Mind you sometimes it was awkward because the Germans were in France and we, we took them on. I don’t know where. Toulouse. Yeah. Yeah. Toulouse it was, I think. And we took, took them on.
DK: Right. And it says you actually attacked at six thousand feet in a full moon so —
MS: Yeah.
DK: Can you remember that? Clear conditions.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So you’ve got here Danzig Bay where you’re dropping mines. Dropping mines.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Yeah. Yeah. The two German warships. We dropped in the entrance and we dropped mines there and the Germans couldn’t get in.
DK: Right.
MS: Took them three weeks to clear the mines.
DK: So that was very successful then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I remember we kept the, kept the Germans at bay for another three weeks. I remember the Toulouse raid.
DK: Right.
MS: The Toulouse raid. That was a close call.
DK: Can you remember what happened?
MS: Yeah. We got hit in several places. I had to shut the engines off and we landed in the banks of a [pause] I can’t think of it. We were in the banks of the Wash anyway.
DK: Yeah.
Other: As I said, David, I don’t know if it’s in there but he was actually on the Tirpitz raid as well.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
Other: Presume that was with 9 Squadron.
DK: Yeah. So you finished with 9 Squadron then and you’d gone off to the Lancaster Finishing School.
MS: Yeah. I was an instructor.
DK: And then it looks like you spent a bit of time with 50 Squadron. 50 Squadron. Five zero Squadron.
MS: Yeah. Well, 57 was my main squadron.
DK: Right. Oh, hang on. I’m going on a bit. Sorry. My fault.
MS: The main thing that annoyed us was I was commissioned and a friend of mine I went through the ATC. The lot. But he failed his exam and he had a, he had a separate room to me and I said no, on the train this was going down to Cosford to the engineer’s course. And then they came and I said I wanted to stay with him. And the squadron leader came and ordered me out of that. I had to go in to the first class.
DK: Right.
MS: He ordered me to go and I left this bloke. My friend. We went through the ATC, the lot together. And he just failed his exam.
DK: Right. Ok. Do you want to take a bit of a rest there? I’ll just stop this for a moment.
[recording paused]
DK: How do you look back now on your time now in the RAF? In Bomber Command. How do you look back on it?
MS: Yeah. [pause] Yeah. I just wish that the skipper was alive. The last one as far as I know was the wireless op, Buzz.
DK: Right.
MS: And his son rang. Rang me up to say, ‘We lost dad.’ So —
Other: That was a couple of years ago.
DK: Right. So —
[pause]
MS: Yeah.
Other: And your skipper was Johnny Ludford.
MS: He was a good bloke.
DK: Yeah. Done that.
MS: A good crew we had really.
DK: A good crew. Yeah.
MS: Good and friendly. A Canadian. When we got back we had a moon stand down of four days. Our rear gunner, Canadian, he went back home and he got three months holiday [laughs] And we had just about four days I think it was.
DK: So the Canadians got three months and you got four days.
[pause]
DK: So, in 19 — you then went to 9 Squadron. Do you remember 9 Squadron?
MS: No. I did the one trip in 9 Squadron.
DK: Only one.
MS: And then peace was declared.
DK: Right. So you went to 9 Squadron. You flew Lancaster WST and you did one operation to Pilsen. Pilsen. P I L S E N.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, that’s when the war’s ended.
MS: Yeah.
DK: And did you do the Operation Manna trips then? Dropping the food.
MS: Well, I was posted to Kidlington.
DK: Right.
MS: And from there I was at High Wycombe. That was a parachute school.
DK: Right.
MS: And I did several jumps, you know. Parachute jumps. And when I got to Kidlington they, they wanted to know what I did, and as a favour I did a parachute jump and landed in a field near the officer’s mess. Then we all went and had a drink.
[pause – pages turning]
DK: Ok. I’ll end it there. I can see you’re getting a little bit tired. If you want to have your drink I’ll turn that off now.
[recording paused]
DK: Just put that back on again. you’ve got some photos here. So that’s from 1945. [pause]
MS: Yeah. That’s me.
DK: Ok.
MS: I was second. Second in command.
DK: So, that’s at Skellingthorpe in 1945 and you’re third one in, is it? That one.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So, is that you there?
MS: No. Next to him. Yeah. Next to —
DK: Next.
MS: Next to the silly bugger there [laughs]
DK: Right. That’s you there. Right. Ok.
[pause]
MS: Those are photographs of the parade.
DK: So, they’re after the war, are they?
MS: I had to attend them. Yeah. There’s me. I’ve got a mark over them. There.
DK: Oh that’s you there. Right. Ok. So that’s post war then. That’s 19 —
MS: It was a bit difficult because those rifles look a bit like that. And that bloke was doing his National Service. And that was the CO.
DK: So that’s 1955 then.
MS: Yeah.
DK: So what year did you leave the RAF? Do you recall?
MS: I don’t know.
DK: No. Ok. Ok.
Other: I think it was ’54.
DK: Oh ‘54. Yeah. From ’45. Ok. Let’s stop that there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Stoneman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AStonemanMW180605, PStonemanMW1801
Format
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00:35:15 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice Stoneman was posted to 57 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby as the flight engineer on Lancasters in 1943. He recalls that on returning from operations they used to fly around the Boston Stump and around Lincoln Cathedral before finally landing. In total Maurice flew 29 operations across Europe. During an early operation mines were dropped in the Königsberg canal, blocking the exit of the German ships the Prinz Eugen and Gneisenau for three weeks. On one operation, anti-aircraft fire had cut the fuel to two engines. They had to crash land on a sandbank in the Wash. Air Sea Rescue came out and picked them up. In February 1944, their aircraft lost its brakes and was diverted to RAF Swinderby where a cable across the runway was used to catch the tail wheel and bring them to a safe stop. During a flight, a German pilot was seen to parachute out of his aircraft and land in the sea. The Air Sea Rescue collected the pilot. He was taken to the squadron mess and entertained by Maurice. An operation to Leipzig resulted in his aircraft being attacked by a Ju 88. The mid upper gunner was seriously wounded, dying later in hospital. The aircraft lost hydraulics and oxygen. Maurice describes this operation as ‘a shaky do’. Transferred to a Lancaster Finishing School as an instructor, and then to 9 Squadron for one final bombing operation before the war ended. He also took part in Operation Manna.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Boston
England--Lincoln
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)--Kaliningrad (Kaliningradskai︠a︡ oblastʹ)
England--The Wash
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-02
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
57 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
crash
ditching
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mess
military ethos
military service conditions
mine laying
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
prisoner of war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
training
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stevens, Maureen and Steve
Steve Stevens
Sidney Stevens
S Stevens
Maureen Stevens
M Stevens
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sidney Stevens (Royal Air Force) and Maureen Stevens (Women's Auxiliary Air Force). Sidney Stevens flew operations as a pilot with 57 Squadron. His wife Maureen Stevens served as a wireless operator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stevens, M-S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SS: I was stationed at Abingdon I think and the —
DK: Can I just stop you there. Just introduce you. It’s David Kavanagh, International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr and Mrs Stevens at their home.
SS: Right.
DK: Sorry.
SS: That’s ok. And I, I was, one of the wireless operators, actually he was the signals officers, came along and said to me, ‘Have you seen anything like this before?’ And he had a wire, a wire recorder like the [unclear] four tapes started. And I was playing about with that and a senior officer, a group captain came along and said, ‘What are you doing with that, Stevens?’ And I said, ‘Well, an interesting machine here, sir.’ And of course, I got his voice coming back saying, ‘What are you doing with that Stevens?’ And he’d never seen this or heard of this before either as far as I know. And so he said, ‘Well, sometimes,’ he said, ‘It might be a good idea, while you’re, while it’s still fresh in your mind just to record some of one of your experiences. Or one that you could think about and put on this wire.’ So, I got the signals bloke again and we actually recorded the first bit of that on, on wire and later on it was transferred to tape. Very thin tape. And there again not a sort standard tape that we have now. One they were experimenting with. And that’s how eventually it arrived on the machine here. So that’s how the recording arrived.
DK: So the recording was made on your station in 1944.
SS: I should think, yes. It was made in 1944. Towards the end of ’44.
DK: If I keep looking down I’m just making sure the tape’s working.
SS: Yes [laughs]
DK: What I wanted to ask you is, what were you doing immediately before the war?
SS: Well, I, in nineteen thirty — I suppose it, when what really sparked me was when Chamberlain came back with his little bit of paper saying, ‘I believe this will be peace’ in your time — ‘In our time.’ And I thought to myself if he believes that he believes anything. It was quite obvious really that Hitler wasn’t going to take any notice of him. At least it was to me as a child. And so I volunteered to join the air raid precautions. Now, I started so early on this training that when the war actually broke out I was one of a small number of people who were down in control centres. So that when bombs, when air raid wardens who were dotted all over the place to give reports had to report it somewhere and the control centre was where they reported it. And it was people like me then and I was at a control centre, I suppose I was a chief of control centre there for some time in North Croydon. And there. What the Crystal Palace, the Crystal Palace, the football team there. And we had an underground shelter so all the calls came in to the, either to the north or the south underground centres. And then we had an engineer and various other experts who could deal with things like a gas, electricity, water, sewage, unexploded bombs and all that. A wide variety of things. All these things came through the control centre. We then allocated various people to do jobs. That’s what I was doing. And then one night after, just after the Battle of Britain and when it started getting dark and they were bombing London I was actually in this control centre. It was quite a voluntary job. I was doing eight hours a night once the war broke out. Not getting paid for it. It was a shilling a night for a cup of tea I think [laughs] but I got expenses. And a message came through to us saying that my house had been bombed. And so later on, I had to wait until my shift finished, obviously had to hand over to somebody and on the way home — the gas, sewage and all that sort of stuff. Blackout, formless houses. When I arrived at my road sure enough like a gap and a sort of sense of [unclear] or something like that. My house had been blown up. And that was unfortunate because my mother had been evacuated to Devon and she thought things were getting quieter and had come back to see how we were. And my father was there as well. And of course, this, this was a fairly small bomb I think. Certainly by later, the things that I was dropping later on, and when I got home I found the house was just in smithereens. It just, it just hardly existed really. Fortunately, we’d lived in Devon for a long time before we came to Devon — I mean before we came to London and so we had a very large farmhouse table. One of those things that you would put flaps in with handles underneath. So a really sturdy table. And when they heard the bombs coming down they dived under there. And the house collapsed really and the piano which was part of the furniture in the living room had fallen over and formed a little tent. And so both my parents were buried under there. My father had an enormous dent in his steel helmet I remember. An uncle who was there at the time dived underneath but couldn’t quite get the whole of his body underneath and a bit of his right side got crushed and they had to take him away to have a badly broken leg tended to. But even worse than that the lady who lived next door had said to me, ‘I’ve just got some tea here. Are you going to work?’ I said, ‘Yes. Going down to the old Report Centre.’ And she said, ‘Like a cup of tea?’ I said, ‘Oh yes please.’ So, I stopped and had a cup of tea with her because tea of course was rationed and off I went. The next I saw of this poor lady the house next door, in which she lived also had been smashed but she had been smashed against the front door like some hideous gelatinous graffiti really. Sort of splat stuff you see in comedy films sometimes. But no comedy about this of course. My next door neighbour was just smashed just like that. You could see her outline and the smell was appalling. And I stood outside at the empty sky and said, ‘You bastards. I’ll get my own back on you sometime.’ And of course, I did get my own back by becoming a bomber pilot.
DK: Was this, was this incident then instrumental in you wanting to join the RAF? Was that a spur?
SS: I think, I think at that time everybody wanted to join the RAF as a Spitfire pilot. I was one of the very few I think who decided it was heavy bombers for me. I wanted to kill more of the bastards than I could in a fighter. I mean, that’s just how I felt. And it was that really that progressed to me on to becoming a Lancaster pilot ultimately.
DK: So, what, what year did you actually join the RAF then?
SS: I think I volunteered in 1939. December I was born. In 1940. I’ve got my papers upstairs. I can check on this if you like. Then my training —
DK: So where, where was your training first of all then?
SS: Well, I trained, well first of all you had to go to a — what did they call them? Oh, an Initial Training Unit and do six weeks which was very, very and I went down to a place called Paignton. Down in Devon.
DK: Paignton. Yeah. I was there last week.
SS: That was just for the ITW.
DK: Yeah.
SS: And there we learned all the elementary stuff about the RAF. How to get on, how to salute and march about and all that sort of stuff. Also, stuff like serial flight. Beginnings of the education on navigation and signalling, Morse code and that sort of stuff, you know. By light and by buzzer. And bits about the air force law. So, we knew our training. What we were doing partly. And that course lasted about six weeks and it’s quite surprising how many people got washed out. First of all from that initial course and after that from the subsequent training unit. Some people got so far but I don’t think very many actually survived those courses to become pilots because obviously training as a pilot was very expensive, demanding in man hours and machinery and that sort of thing. So the people eventually who did become pilots were pretty well selected I think.
DK: So where was your pilot training then? Where did you go for that?
SS: Well, I started off at Carlisle where I did an elementary EFTS. Elementary Flying Training School. And then by some strange chance —
DK: That’s, that’s — sorry. That’s where you would have gone solo.
SS: Sorry?
DK: That’s where you would have gone solo.
SS: Yes. I think I’ve got one or two pictures.
DK: We can have a look later if you like.
SS: I’ll show you that later on shall I?
DK: Yeah.
SS: I’ll, I went first of all to Carlisle and then the course that I was taking after I’d gone solo was suddenly stopped because they were going to use what was called a grading course. Where they would bring people in for so long and then if they didn’t go solo or you weren’t apt they were chucked out pretty quickly. This was because they had such pressure of people wanting to get in. They were equally keen on getting quite a lot and selecting the few that were left. But also, as a sort of strange arrangement the RAF had come into, or our government had come in to contact with the Americans and they had a very few civilian flying schools which they ran on government regulations using government aircraft and that sort of thing. And I was allocated to go on those six schools in America. So I went out to the civilian flying school.
DK: This is, this in America.
SS: In America. In California.
DK: Do you remember whereabouts?
SS: A place called Lancaster in California.
DK: Right.
SS: Out on the Mojave Desert really. Plenty of room to crash an aircraft on.
DK: So, so what was it like going to America then in wartime? Was it —
SS: That’s right, yes.
DK: Was it a big, big change? Cultural change.
SS: Well, incredible really. First of all, when we, getting across the Atlantic was a bit tricky. Coming across the North Atlantic in winter was quite an experience in convoy. A rather slow running convoy and of course the troop ships were packed. It wasn’t my first experience of a troop ship because I’d been on one of these school cruises. Cost about five pounds for nine days and that sort of thing. But we, we used old troop ships and we slept in hammocks and we knew everything about sitting down on these hard board bases and that sort of caper. So I’d had that experience before going on a troop ship. So consequently I wasn’t seasick and it was fascinating going on deck for example and just watching these breakers come over the top and just freezing because they, they landed on the deck, you know. Stuff was frozen. It was cold. You couldn’t, of course take any clothes off just in case we got sunk which seemed highly likely because they, they were getting some small idea about forming convoys. We had two very old American destroyers that they’d lent us under lease lend as it was called. And it was quite an experience watching these poor destroyers try to battle against these Atlantic storms. It was bad enough on bigger troop ships but for them it must have been absolute hell. And then I went from there to Canada. Halifax in Nova Scotia. And then by train down to New Brunswick where they got a dispersal camp which was just being built. And then I got spilled out down there to take an overland, with an overland trip by rail right the way through to California. And then, there we did the sort of basic training. And then again several people wiped out. Even having got as far as that because they had already done solo in England. And then we had an intermediate course on what they called a basic trainer. And finally the Harvard. The good old Harvard which took about for fighter experience really. And the majority of people of course volunteered to be pilots, fighter pilots. They all had the idea of putting on goggles and tearing after the enemy. My idea was something different. I wanted to go, I wanted to go and bomb the bastards. And so I came back to this country and then had to learn how to fly twin-engined aircraft, and of course particularly we concentrated on flying in the dark. Completely. Completely dark and with very, very small lights to line, to enable us to land really. Some of these lights were just formed like a T. If you could imagine putting some paraffin in watering cans and sticking a knob of cotton wool in the spout. These were the so-called goosenecks as we called them. And you’d get seven of those in a line forming a T and we would use those to land in the dark which was, which cost a great number of lives. We killed a lot of people trying to teach them how to fly at night. And I was one of those who escaped again. And then having flown quite light aircraft. Twin-engined aircraft we then went to the heavier ones. Eventually used the Wellingtons which really were wonderful old warhorses. They were very well designed by Barnes Wallis of course who talked about this. And they were flexible. I would say they were not an easy, easy aircraft to fly I think. And then from there I went to an aircraft called a Manchester which were like a twin-engined Lanc. An absolute bloody awful aircraft to fly.
DK: What was, what was wrong, what was wrong with the Manchester then?
SS: The Manchester had two great big engines mounted in tandem as it was. You had two propellers. Just, just two engines. One on each side. The propellers were huge. The, they, very very quickly oiled up if you tried to taxi any, at any speed and the brakes too used to get absolutely red hot. So it was very difficult taxiing them I thought. And I just did a few flights on one of those by day and night and eventually went from there to a Lancaster. Well, the course was very very short. I had never seen a Lancaster at the beginning of April. And this is 1943 by the time I got there. And I went on to the squadron. I had only done about a half a dozen landings I think in a Lancaster and I was thought operationally fit and went across to Scampton where I joined number 57 Squadron which I did the rest of my tour. It’s also very interesting where you were crewed up. We moved about for a bit, pilots and navigators and eventually crews more or less picked themselves. In that I was rather unlucky because my first navigator was a hugely impressive man. Very tall. You know. Six foot four tall. Something like that. Very public school character. Nicely spoken and so on. And he’d had his uniform, standard uniform nicely lined with silk and that sort of stuff. He came over to me one day and said, ‘Would you mind if I were your navigator skipper?’ So I said, ‘Well, can you navigate?’ ‘Oh yes. Of course. Of course. Of course. No trouble at all.’ So I said, ‘Right, we’ll try you for navigator then.’ And then the others sort of came and joined us in various ways. Except I hadn’t got a flight engineer. We didn’t have flight engineers on a Wellington and I got appointed a chap who was an absolute disaster. You only had to look at him really. First of all his eyesight was poor. He had long great big goggles on with lenses in. He was altogether a sort of under confident and so on. And when I went on my first, my first trip on a Manchester I see he was promptly sick all over the throttle box. Which wasn’t a very nice start for me or for him. And so he got thrown off because he was sick and I never saw him again. And I didn’t have another flight engineer until I was nearing the end of my training when quite suddenly the engineer arrived. Which was useful. And then the navigator who was absolutely useless. I went out one morning over Ely and I said to him, ‘Right. Navigator. Can you tell me where we are?’ A long long long pause. And I thought crikey. I’d been over Ely Cathedral three or four times and done circuits of it. I said, ‘Do you know where we are navigator?’ Hadn’t got a clue. ‘Sorry skipper, I haven’t got my maps. I’ll just get, take up a moment or two.’ And when I landed my wireless op said to me, ‘I don’t want to worry you skip,’ he said, ‘But look at the note I got from navigator.’ And he’d written, he’d written the wireless op a note, “Get me a fix for Christ’s sake.” So, I thought well if you’re going to get lost on the way to Ely that’s not much good. So I went and saw my flight commander who said, ‘Well, you can’t change him now. He’s a darned nice bloke,’ and he gave me all sorts of [unclear] He was a good bloke. Had a pair of Purdey guns and the wife, oh my goodness me. She was a sixteen [cylinder?] model you know. Turned up in large Lagonda to a hotel. They went and stayed, he went and stayed overnight with her. But he was a good social chap. He knew the, knew the local landowners by name and that sort of stuff but as a navigator he was useless. I couldn’t get rid of him because everybody there was convinced he was such a fine chap. Except I was coming back from, still on the training stage on Lancaster and he suddenly says. ‘My skipper. My ears, my ears.’ Because that was how he spoke you see. So I said, ‘What about your ears navigator?’ He said, ‘My ears. My ears are popping.’ So I said, ‘Well, they’re likely to. Just breathe in, blow your cheeks out, they’ll pop out again.’ And he was still yelling about this so I said, ‘Right. Hold on then. Very quickly I’ll get you back to base.’ So, I lowered the wheels and flaps and got down very smartly and went up to flying control and said my navigator was sick. Seemed to have some ear trouble. And the doctor whipped him away and then I got him later replaced by a little snaggle toothed chap. About thirty I suppose. And he was very competent. He was my navigator for most of the rest of the tour. Yes. So that was it really. How to get rid of the navigator. Wait till he’s got ear trouble and do a dive and pop his ears out. Which is why I’m deaf now [laughs] because I got the same treatment [laughs]
DK: Apart, apart from the unfortunate navigator did you think it worked well? That the crews more or less found themselves.
SS: Well, mine wouldn’t have don certainly. Mine would have been a dead loss. I wouldn’t have given myself a couple of trips with a crew with that particular chap. The flight engineer and this disastrous toff really as a, as a navigator. I wouldn’t have got very far.
DK: No.
SS: But by a piece of luck.
DK: So, so what were your thoughts now about the Lancaster as an aircraft?
SS: Oh superb.
DK: That was a Lancaster.
SS: It was infinitely better than any other heavy aircraft. It had, the great disadvantage was that really it was an aircraft built around a bomb carrier. It carried the maximum amount and weight of bomb for the size of the air frame and consequently the last people who seemed to be thought about were the aircrew. And there was a long and devious method of getting into the, into the pilot’s seat. And the navigator was in a very cramped space and the, so was the wireless op. They were really in light-proof cabins anyway. But they were very very small. And when you think, I don’t know if you’ve seen the navigators charts, Mercator charts but as they had difficult getting and manoeuverating their, I’m sorry manoeuvring their navigating equipment and the charts and keeping the plot going. Somehow or other they did it. And there again the poor old wireless op had a pretty small cabin to work in. There wasn’t really a decent second pilot’s seat either for the engineer to sit at and it could have been better. And of course the, the rear turret was absolutely isolated from the rest of the aircraft. Small, fairly small door and when they got in they had to leave their parachutes outside. Which was all very well until you had an emergency. It was very difficult to get hold of the damn thing then. You had to open the door, sort of fall out backwards I think to get out of the aircraft. So, you didn’t get very many Lancaster aircrew surviving when they were hit. Not compared with other aircraft anyway.
DK: So, all your operations then were with 57 Squadron were they?
SS: They were. Yes.
DK: And they were all flying from Scampton.
SS: Yes. Oh no. No. I did twenty from, I did twenty trips approximately from Scampton and ten from East Kirkby which had just opened at that time.
DK: And how many operations did you do?
SS: Well, I did actually thirty trips. I think, I think twenty nine operations because one of them was a bit of a disaster. But that was the fault of a poor aircraft I think.
DK: And the earlier recording was of you where you were attacked by a night fighter.
SS: Yes.
DK: And your engine’s damaged. How many times did that happen? How many times were you — ?
SS: Well —
DK: Coming back on three engines or less.
SS: Oh. No. Three engines was enough actually with damaged aircraft. No. You got minor damage quite frequently but it wasn’t — I suppose I compare it to being in a hail storm really. You hear the stuff beating about and you get small holes in the fuselage which was where I suppose you could put a sharp pencil through the fuselage if you tried hard. So it didn’t, didn’t offer any real, any real protection. But I think I was hit by flak enough to give you a forced landing at the nearest airfield when I got back to England twice. I’ve got my logbook somewhere. I could look it up. I’ve still got my logbook upstairs and I’ve got a small computer thing which was made by my flight engineer as well. So, that gives probably a different idea of what went on because some people wrote great reams in their log books but this was considered bad manners in 57 Squadron. So generally the pilots just wrote DCA which meant did he carry it out? Or DNCO duty not carried out for various reasons?
DK: Right. Mrs Stevens, can I, can I ask you a few questions? When did you join the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force?
MS: The WAAF. I joined in June 1941.
DK: Ok. And you were actually based at Scampton as well then were you?
MS: Yes. I was. And I was in 5 Group which was in Lincolnshire. And I’d been on several stations. Bomber Command stations. I started at Waddington and then I went to Swinderby. Then to Skellingthorpe. And then a Conversion Unit at Wigsley. And I was posted to Scampton in May. I honestly can’t remember the date at all but it was just a few days before the dams raid.
DK: Did you, did you know what the dams squadron were doing then? Was it —
MS: Not, not at all.
SS: No.
DK: No.
MS: I had no idea of where the aircraft were going. I knew nothing about it at all. They used to simply take off. They took off because they were given a green light from a caravan at the end of the runway. And they took off. As they took off the pilot’s name was on the board. Time of take-off. Never, never saw the target or anything like that.
DK: Right.
MS: And the only time you spoke to the pilot was on the way back when he called up. And as they called up you would give them a height to fly. The first one, for example you would say, if the runway was clear, you would say, ‘Pancake.’ Which meant that he could come in to land. And then the second one would call up. You would say, ‘Aerodrome one thousand.’ The third one would say, you would give him, ‘Fly around at fifteen hundred feet.’ In other words they were stacked at five hundred feet intervals. During this time of course the squadron had a call sign. The station had a call sign. There was quite a normal procedure that you had to go through and you had to verify who they were of course. And then you would bring them in one at a time to land. It was a very good job. Very exciting job. Very sad of course at times. And as they came back you would put the time of arrival on the board. On the same line of course as —
DK: Yeah.
MS: When the pilot took off. And you put the time of arrival. If they didn’t come back, well you just simply left it blank. I didn’t do it. They had a, the control officer was there and we took all our instructions from him and conveyed them directly to the pilot. We had also a logbook and that, you would log everything that the pilot said, and you said and there again you would put the take-off time and time of arrival. And any conversation at all that took place.
DK: And so that was really your, your world then. Within the control tower itself.
SS: Yes.
DK: So between them taking off, going on the operation and coming back what were you doing then? Did you just wait?
MS: Well, what we did then we used to listen out to what we called, “Darkie,” calls. I mean if I said they were Mayday calls you would —
DK: Yeah.
MS: Be more familiar with them and you obviously didn’t get them every night but Lincolnshire was — very often they had very bad mists and fogs and things during that time. And sometimes you would get a stray aircraft. He would call up and ask where he was. And there again you would go through the normal procedure. Asking him where he came from and once it was alright then you proceeded to bring him in to land. And sometimes it was a very, very difficult job for the control officer. He would be on the balcony outside firing verey pistols and things like that and communicating all the time on the radio telephone. And the officer in charge would relate to me messages and he would come back. And eventually you would get them down or probably they just needed to know where they were. But we had, I was on duty one night and the officer in control, he was a Canadian. And I remember that one particularly because it took ages for this poor chap to get down. I can’t honestly remember whether he ran out of fuel or whether — I don’t, he certainly didn’t crash but he was very, very grateful to get down. We got him down and he came up into the control tower afterwards and thanked us.
DK: That’s nice to know.
MS: Oh, it was a lovely, it was a lovely job and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I found it very nerve wracking at first.
DK: I can imagine.
MS: Having not been away from home.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I mean, we didn’t travel in those days like the young people travel today. But —
DK: So, what, what made you join the WAAF then? Was it —
MS: Well, as a matter of fact on the age of eighteen you had to do some sort of war work and I actually volunteered for the Wrens.
DK: Right.
MS: And they deferred me for six months. And I volunteered for the Wrens because my father had been a regular serviceman in the Royal Marines and that was really my choice. But anyway, I was called up during that six months and joined the WAAFs. I wasn’t sorry. I was delighted. It was a lovely job.
DK: So, at Scampton then there was both 57 and 617 Squadron.
MS: Yes.
DK: There then. So were you actually on duty —
MS: Yes.
DK: The day the —
MS: Yes.
DK: Dambusters returned.
MS: Yes. I remember nothing about it at all except going off duty at 8 o’clock that morning.
DK: And this —
MS: As far as I was concerned it was simply another raid.
DK: Another operation.
MS: There again, people said to me did you have friends? You know, did the chaps date you and all that sort of thing. Well, of course not. They were, they were far too interested in flying their planes and getting back from war. And as far as I was concerned — no. It [pause] they were simply names put on a board.
DK: Yeah.
MS: I knew, I knew one chappie there. Mickey Martin. An Australian pilot who flew P for Popsi, I think. He used to call it P for Popsi. And yes. That’s how it was known and, but I only knew him through work because we’d been on other stations prior to —
DK: Right.
MS: Arriving at Scampton.
DK: So how, how did you two both meet then? What’s the story behind that?
MS: Well, I think, I think, if you really want to know I think it was when my husband on Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
DK: Right.
MS: And he was interested in my voice and he came up to see what I looked like.
DK: So that was before he joined 57 Squadron then.
SS: Yes.
DK: Oh right.
MS: Yes. In fact, I think Steve, you said to me afterwards he joined, he went to 57 Squadron on Lancs of course then. He converted from Manchesters to Lancasters at this RAF station called Wigsley. And he remembered being posted on the 1st of May. I have no idea when I was posted but I was posted from, well I think I went [pause] honestly. Where was I? Wigsley? I can’t honestly remember.
SS: Yes. You were at Wigsley. Yes.
MS: Yes, of course. It was. Wigsley.
SS: Wigsley to Scampton.
MS: Of course it was. That was where you were on Conversion Unit and I was on duty there. He recognised my voice. Waited for me to come off duty so that he could say hello to me.
DK: So he recognised your voice from Wigsley.
MS: Yes. Yes.
DK: And when you got to Scampton came up.
MS: Yes. He did. Yes. In fact, I was, when I went into the WAAFs I thought probably I would do some sort of clerical work or something like that. And no. They, I was, saw, I think he was a squadron leader. I know he was a commissioned rank and oh he said, ‘I’ve got another job for you.’ And he was telling me we were going in the control tower and we were actually picked for our voices.
DK: Right. Ok.
MS: And, as I say it was a very interesting job. A bit nerve wracking at first. I was very nervous. Very frightened.
DK: Presumably you were chosen because you had a very clear voice. Was that what they were looking for?
MS: Probably. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Yes. Yes.
DK: So —
MS: Is it still clear?
DK: It’s very clear. Yes.
MS: Well, I’m ninety seven in December. Or will be.
DK: I wouldn’t believe that.
MS: I’m — my toyboy husband here will be ninety five in December. And on the 4th of December it will be — we will have been married seventy three years.
DK: Congratulations.
MS: So there we are.
DK: Yeah.
MS: The Lord’s been very good to us. We’re a couple of poor totteries now aren’t we darling?
SS: Yeah. Quite the —
DK: How do you, can I ask you Mr Stevens how do you look back now on your time in the RAF and with, particularly with Bomber Command.
SS: Well, it was an interesting time. It’s not the sort of thing I would recommend any growing young man because the casualty rate was enormous. When I arrived at Scampton first of all I was a sergeant pilot. Goodness knows why some people got through the course and were sergeants, others were officers. I don’t know. Because some of the people who failed the pilot’s course then became navigators or bomb aimers and many of them became commissioned. So consequently you’d got the ludicrous situation arising one night where I had a flying officer wireless operator and a flight lieutenant rear gunner and yet there I was a sergeant pilot. As soon as, as soon as you got to the aircraft it was the skipper. It was the pilot who was in charge. Nobody else. No doubt about that at all. But it could have led to awkward situations but —
DK: So, even though you were a sergeant you were in charge of the aircraft. Even though there could have been an officer.
SS: That’s right.
DK: The navigator or —
SS: Yes. I mean there was one chap I picked up one night as a wireless op and I thought he was a bit quiet so I said to one of the other members of the crew, the flight engineer, I said, ‘Go and see what’s happened to that wireless op. I haven’t heard from him lately.’ He was asleep. He was asleep because he’d been drinking too much. So when the trip was over I went along to him and said, ‘You’re not flying with me again. I’ll never take you aboard. If it’s suggested, I think for a moment you’re smelling of whisky and tonight you bloody well slept. The crew could have been dying. If we had needed an SOS now you’d have been incompetent.’ I said, ‘I really ought to report you but I just shall refuse to have you as a crew member again.’ If that sort of situation arose you just had to tick these people off irrespective of rank. And that was just the situation. I did get commissioned later one night. I became a flight sergeant of course. It’s all, as far as pay was concerned there was no difference of a pay grade between a flight sergeant and what was a flying officer. So, that, it wasn’t really the money. As far as I was concerned there was a great advantage because I went, when I went to Scampton there was a nice married quarter, had been a married quarter which was right on the, near flying control. Right on the edge of the airfield near the taxi track. And our crew fitted that very nicely. And as I say consequently I didn’t, you didn’t find yourself with half the crew sergeants and half the crew officers. We were all, sort of sergeants together which was a great help. And then later on when I got commissioned for a little while I still went on as I was at Scampton and I went on living in this place. Nobody took any notice I was there. I said, ‘Look, I I really would rather stay with my crew.’ But when I got to East Kirkby, the adjutant there. The man with an amazing stutter. He said, ‘Why are you in the sergeant’s,’ whatever it was, mess. So I said, ‘Well it’s because it’s my people there.’ He said, ‘If you were an officer you’d have —’ I said, ‘I haven’t had time to get a uniform which makes me an officer.’ I got twenty four hours to rush down to London. Buy a uniform which nearly fitted and go back again and go in to the officer’s mess. My training for that was as short as that.
DK: So, so what year did you leave the RAF then?
SS: Oh I, I actually, when the war was over my number —
MS: You wanted to stay in didn’t you?
SS: I thought first of all I wouldn’t mind staying in this as a career really. And then I had a rather curious job because when the war was over lots and lots of people were, came back from overseas. Some of whom had very nice cushy jobs out there you know. And others not quite so cushy. And of course the poor devils, I always felt sorry for the Japanese prisoners of war. And the air force had put out a sort of regulation that people who’d trained as pilots would have to show some ability to fly before they could retain whatever their wartime rank was.
DK: Right.
SS: And I went to Abingdon where I was made a unit master pilot. Which meant by that time I’d qualified in all sorts of ways as an instructor and I used to take these people on some, I’d lots of group captains and wing commanders in my log book. I was taking to show them to fly heavier aircraft because the war with Japan was still going on then you see and —
DK: Did you expect to be going out to the Far East then?
SS: I wouldn’t have been surprised. Yes. I thought that might have been the next move but just for the time I was preparing somebody else to go which was a lot safer really [laughs]. So that, that was a most interesting job and on one occasion I was taking a wing commander up and the following day he said, ‘Look Steve,’ he said, ‘I’ve just become your commanding officer.’ He said, I’m now known as the chief flying instructor and I know I can’t fly nearly as well as you.’ So, I said, ‘Alright. we’ll iron that out between us.’ And he was a very nice chap indeed. He had, I’ll just sort of divert a bit. This chap had been a prisoner of war and he’d been taken, sometimes you don’t think how far flung the war was. And he’d been taken in the Japanese war in Surabaya. Right out the Dutch East Indies. And it was the Dutch East Indies. And he was put into a jail there and he said they were so crammed that people just couldn’t lie down. They were so, so crushed. And one of the blokes there, one of the officers complained and said, ‘Look, we can’t lie up. We can’t sit down. We can’t do anything comfortably.’ ‘Well that’s alright,’ said the Japanese and promptly bayoneted two or three people. Chopped the heads off others, you know and said, ‘That’s made a bit of room for you.’ Just chucked the bodies out and that was the bit of room they made. Then he was put in a prisoner of war camp and just working with the rest and one day, oh he got caught by the secret police because they’d been doing some small work for the Japanese and he showed them how to sabotage the work so it would never, never sort of get on with it. And he thought, they sent for him and they actually threw him over them prison wall. And every time they threw bodies over they would have some sort of food, grizzly old rice and that sort of stuff attached to it. He lived on that for about six months. Just like that. Out in the mud burying bodies and eating what he could really. Dying. They hoped he’d die. Anyway, suddenly one day he was sent to go back inside and he thought, ‘Right. This is my lot. I’m bound to be executed.’ So, he goes back inside. To his amazement the commandment bows to him and does all that sort of rubbish you know and said, ‘You’re now the commanding officer because we’ve been defeated.’ So, that was a huge promotion for him. A strange man. Strangely enough of course he’d been one with these people in Surabaya, mainly the Dutch. And the Dutch government or the English government sent a small force. First of all the Dutch government sent out some troops to re-occupy, to re-occupy Surabaya and they failed. And the natives, they were actually treated very badly. The ones they took as prisoners they crucified to doors and things like that. He was telling me some horrible, some horrible stories about that. But of course he went along. By then he could speak their language. He’d been in jail with them, he said, ‘Just a minute. I’m on your side don’t forget.’ So he wasn’t, he wasn’t sort of pulled out of jail or hanged or executed. They just kept him as a pal. And then we sent some troops over under a brigadier called Mallaby. And the Dutch, these, these Javanese were preparing to, whoever again small parties and again he said, ‘You can’t do that. They’re on my side. We’re pals.’ And so Mallaby got killed or something and he took over the British Army Force there and sort of settled them in fairly, relatively happily until more relief arrived. And the bloke who got a DSO as a prisoner of war. It was a real unusual story. The name was Groom and he was an Australian that started —
DK: Can you remember his name?
SS: Sorry?
DK: Do you remember his name?
SS: Ah yes. I think the name was Groom G R O O M. A D Groom, and a very nice chap indeed. Anyway, I meanwhile had sort of seen the air force contracting almost immediately after that and people started getting demobbed. Demobbed. And so they said, ‘Well if you apply to do this you’ll get your permanent commission.’ I thought I’m not sure I want to now because she had been demobbed and we had a baby and I thought I don’t really want to get posted overseas and see the family split up and so on. So I had compulsorily to work. To do another eighteen months instructing before they let me go. But after I’d been instructing the extra year I had got a job at a training college which I wanted to do. To take up teaching. So, I then got released for this extra six months providing I sort of joined the RAF VR and did some weekend flying and all that sort of stuff. Just in case there was another war. Which there damn well was actually. They called me up for it. That was a very short service. Because as usual the RAF had demobbed too many people. There weren’t too many aircraft. There wasn’t really an aircraft for me us fly so after a fortnight up there we came home again. We’d just got this house and inside three months I got this call up notice again [unclear]. So that was rather sad but anyway I went off to do a fortnight’s flying and then they decided to let me go again because they didn’t have much of a job for me really.
DK: Was this the time of Korea then? Or —
SS: Sorry?
DK: Was this the time of Korea you got called up again?
SS: That’s right. Yes. It was the Korean War.
DK: Yeah.
SS: But the —
MS: Was that about ’52 wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
SS: I forgot the time of it.
DK: Yeah.
MS: It was very early on.
DK: Yeah.
SS: Something like that.
DK: So, Mrs Stevens how do you feel about your time in the RAF then?
MS: Oh, we live, we still live RAF. We’ve been to so many reunions and we used to, a few years ago we used to always go up to the reunions and stay at the Petwood Hotel.
DK: Yes.
MS: And even now I’m trying to remember the village it’s in and I can’t.
DK: Woodhall Spa.
MS: How right you are. I could have done with you the other day. Somebody was asking me where it was. Woodhall Spa just didn’t come.
DK: My wife and I have stayed there several times. It’s a lovely hotel.
MS: Lovely.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Well, we —
DK: We’ve taken our dogs there as well.
MS: Do you live in Lincolnshire?
DK: Yes. Just south of, north of Stamford and south of Grantham.
MS: Yes. South of Grantham.
DK: South of Grantham. So we’re often at Woodhall Spa. Walking the dogs at the Petwood.
MS: Lovely.
DK: Yeah.
MS: Well, we used to go up for three day breaks fairly often. And we loved it. Oh yes. We, we’re just RAF. I think both my husband and I, if I hadn’t have married I would have stayed in.
DK: Right.
MS: Without any doubt at all. I loved the life. Discipline didn’t come hard to me at all.
SS: No. Her father had been a sergeant major in the Marines and he so he disciplined all the children very well when he was at home to do it but he was actually dealing with anti-slavery training along the African coast.
DK: Right.
SS: Zanzibar was a particular place he used to talk about and he was actually demobbed before the First World War and then he was recalled again for that.
MS: Yes. Then he actually —
SS: He was recalled for the Second World War.
MS: Yes he was. This last war he was called. They put him on digging trenches. He was in his sixties then. But yes.
DK: Ok. That’s great. I’ll stop there. Thanks very much for all of that. That’s wonderful.
MS: Tell me about —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maureen and Sidney Stevens
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStevensM-S160927, PStevensS-M1601, PStevensS-M1602, PStevensS-M1603
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:48:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney was inspired to join The Air Force when he was working as an Air Raid Precaution Warden and one night his own home was bombed. The house next door was also destroyed and the lady who had offered him a cup of tea only hours earlier died. He undertook his training in the United States and then flew operations as a pilot with 57 Squadron at RAF Scampton. Maureen joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force and worked as a wireless operator in the control tower at RAF Wigsley and RAF Scampton. Sidney and Maureen Stevens met while Sidney was training at the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Wigsley. They met again when both were based at RAF Scampton when Sidney wanted to meet again the lady whose voice had guided him back again to base from the control tower.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1944
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
Air Raid Precautions
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
control tower
crewing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
RAF Wigsley
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1061/11455/PMarshGT1801.1.jpg
9112ae5b3ce0f3a5648eb4c41e08e9b0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1061/11455/AMarshGT181217.1.mp3
e30b157f01ea5d9e9884173b3d8a00f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marsh, George Thomas
G T Marsh
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with George Marsh (b. 1942). He grew up on a farm near Bassingham bombing range and remembers a crash.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by George Marsh and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marsh, GT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MS: So, good morning, my names Mike Sheehan, I’m an interviewer with the IBCC. The time is, ten-to-eleven on Monday the 17th of December 2018. I’m sitting in the home of Mr. George Thomas Marsh, and first of all, how do you like to be called?
GM: George.
MS: George, that’ll suit me, and Michael, and sitting next to me is Anita Sheehan, my wife, who’s also one of the interviewers, she’s a co-interviewer. The purpose of the interview is for the digital archives for the International Bomber Command Centre, and you’ve signed documents saying you consent to the interview and you understand the circumstances.
GM: I have indeed, I know entirely what I’m about.
MS: Good, just have to make arrangements for comfort things, so any phones that are on, can we turn them off please? You’ve done it already? Yep. Are you expecting- Are we expecting any, any-
GM: [Chuckles] We are expecting a phone call but I’ve no idea when.
MS: Don’t worry about it, right when it happens, I’ll just stop this, don’t worry about that.
GM: Yeah ok, ok.
MS: Right, and comfort arrangements, if at any time you want a break or anything like that, just say and we’ll just stop the interview. Are you ok with that?
GM: Yep, I should survive half an hour.
MS: You should survive [chuckles] ok, it’s an age thing. Right, first of all can I just borrow that for a second? You, you were born during the war on the 25th of January 1941?
GM: ’42.
MS: ’42, sorry, I lied, yep, and so, I- You’d be quite young during the war, but certain things have an effect on people where-
GM: That’s right.
MS: - their memories spout up.
GM: Yep.
MS: What’s your earliest memory of the war then?
GM: Well, I can- Obviously I can remember this bombing crash which we’re going to talk about later on, and I was almost three at that time, but my first thing that I remember is- I would think I’d probably be two-and-a-half, something like that, I was out one night with my father, and these aircraft went over, and he point out to me, he says, ‘That’s a Lancaster’, and then a while later he says, ‘That’s Jerry’. You can tell by the action of the engine, which was different. Somebody did tell me, later, the difference between- It’s something to do with the carburettor, and I’m not a mechanic, but the German engine was different in sound. So that was the first thing that I can remember, so I would be probably two-and-a-half.
MS: Where would you be at the time?
GM: I was down at this, this farm which we had at Bassingham Fen, and we used to hear things and see things, and that’s where I’d be, and it was, it was a lonely existence because there was no near neighbours but, it was a happy existence.
MS: I bet you didn’t go short of anything?
GM: No, no, no, I-
MS: [Laughs] Now then, on one particular evening in November 1944, what’s your recollection of that?
GM: Yep, this- Some things of it are what I’ve been told [emphasis] and obviously other things, what I actually saw. I was not quite three, and at 0240 hours when this crash took place, my father and mother obviously heard it, they lifted me out of my bed and took me to the window and I- That was the first thing I remember, was seeing this massive fireball of this aircraft, and so it was a combination of sight, and my mother waking me up, or getting me up and showed me what had happened, and then father said, ‘Oh there’s the fire engines’, and what have you, which came and went diagonally across all fields to the site, and of course there’s nothing they could do.
MS: How long after the crash did they actually attend the scene?
GM: Virtually on impact, they were very, very quick. They obviously knew this aircraft was in distress, so there must’ve been a facility somewhere, either on the aircraft, or on the ground, knowing that the aircraft was in trouble, and where it could possibly come down.
MS: What else do you know about it? What else have you picked up?
GM: Well, only since [emphasis] I found out it was a Stirling bomber, very large aircraft, bigger than the Lancaster, and what we were concerned about as farmers was that there were horses in the field, and they bolted, and they took a lot of finding afterward, I remember father saying, and one he nursed, which I can remember, which as badly burnt, and by badly burnt I mean probably at least fifty-percent burns on the animal, and I can remember it being in this shed, and father used to go and feed it, nurse it and what have you, and he got it back to health, but one of them was so badly burned, he said- I didn’t witness it or anything of that nature, but he had to have it destroyed by a vet. But I remember the vet giving him this certain medication to put on the burns, and of course when you get a burn nothing grows through it, the hair never grew through any more, I can remember this with that particular animal because far- We- Farmers at that time, they keep an animal probably ten years or more, during its best working life, and so I would be quite a bit older to remember the horse itself, so I’d probably be five or six.
MS: Yeah, [unclear] what do you know about the crew, of the aircraft? ‘Cause you’ve done some research yourself.
GM: Yeah, I, I did some research on the crew, I found out that two of them were Australian, the pilot and the navigator were Australian and I consequently got some photographs of them and what have ya, and I couldn’t get over the pilot being twenty years old. A massive bomber like that, with six other crew members of which he would be responsible. It’s like a captain on a ship, and he takes over the aircraft, he’s responsible for what’s going on, and as I explained to you Mike in one of the photographs that we looked at, the pilot he looks above his age, so he’d obviously been through things that we would normally not be associated with at that young age, and- So I found out where- How old they all were, where they’re all buried, and some of the facts about their education.
MS: What did you find out?
GM: One- The navigator got some poor reports from his tutors, such as bad writing, couldn’t add up-
MS: [Chuckles] Not good for a navigator.
GM: And yet, yet he came to be a navigator, but looking at his photograph and, and reading his, his facts, he, he came over as a jovial chap, that would laugh, give you a laugh and make a remark about him being, said, a bad student, but he, he made good at the end, and consequently during the last sixty years, and more, I’ve deeply wanted to put a memorial to these lads because we all have a debt of gratitude to these people because they are the only ones that could’ve taken the war to an enemy at the, at the beginning, and, and in 19- 2016- 15, sorry, let me get the dates right. In 2015 I was privileged to have a memorial set up and unveiled at the crash site, and it’s there for everybody to see, the names of the crew are there, and respect can be paid. Every year, I take some flowers, I also- On Armistice day make sure, together with other people, some I don’t know, who bring poppies in remembrance of this crew, I know a poppy defines more the First World War but, it is applicable I’m sure to the Second World War as well.
MS: Yes, where exactly is the memorial located if anyone wants to find it?
GM: The memorial is, is located on a public road, it’s only a single carriage way road but it is down Bassingham Fen, and you can easily get the postcode and where it is online.
MS: What’s the name of the road it’s on?
GM: The road itself is Linga Lane.
MS: Linga?
GM: Linga, L-I-N-G-A Lane, which is a lane that goes from the parish itself, down to the crash site, and it’s at the very bottom of that lane where there is this memorial for everybody to see and have a look at, which I wanted. I want it to be there in perpetuity so that people could see it and pay respects.
MS: Clearly made an impact on you?
GM: It made a big impact because I witnessed it so early in my life, one of the first things I can remember and I always- When I used to go down as a farmer to work the soil, cultivate, drill, where this crash site was (it may sound to some people far-fetched but it’s absolutely true) I used to remember these crew while I was down there, and to say that I had respect, I had more than respect for these lads and with putting up this memorial I’m ensuring that when I’m gone, they are still going to be remembered for what their sacrifice they paid.
MS: Yes, do you know what kind of- What was the operation they were on? Do you know?
GM: [Unclear]
MS: What operation were they actually on? What were they doing?
GM: They were going, I- Practice bombing mission, obviously they were still in training, [unclear] East Wold[?] conversion unit, and that means that they are in training, and so they were going to the Wainfleet site, which is about fifty miles away to do a bombing run and see how good they are, not only at navigating but dropping their ordinance, and then of course they then came back, slight disagreement whether they were coming back or whether they were going but, nevertheless, whichever way it goes, they crashed at this site due to mechanical error, or- No, that’s incorrect, mechanical failure [emphasis].
MS: Engine failure, was it?
GM: Yeah.
MS: Yeah, ok, now I understand that near here on your land, there was a bombing range as well at Bassingham, is that correct?
GM: That is correct, the field adjacent to the crash site was in fact a bombing range in which they could practice dropping bombs on a target. The target, which I’ve been asked many times, what is the target? The target was a ten-metre square concrete area, or ten yards, whichever you want to go- Call it, and that’s what they would be aiming for. At the beginning of the bombing run, there was two watch towers which the aircraft went at the centre of. At the end of the bombing run- And this is still in existence, can be seen but it’s in a ruinous state, but still there that is an underground bunker, in which RAF personnel would be in attendance. What that role was, I don’t know.
MS: Spotters.
GM: Possibly Mike, possibly, but as I say I don’t know a definitive answer, to what it was, but the- But at this site, the bombing range, as I say at the beginning there was two watch towers, which straddled the bombing run, and at the end was this bunker.
MS: Did you witness any bombing runs?
GM: No, is the straight answer to that. Father was heavily involved, he knew a lot of RAF personnel, but I didn’t know any of these [unclear] of that. I remember the, the bombing range being still used after the war because it was Harvard aircraft, which is an American aircraft, yellow, and as a child down there I can remember several of the pilots would be so low after the bombing run, they would wave to me.
MS: [Chuckles] So then, your father had a role, didn’t he? A role to play, what was his role?
GM: Yep, yep, my father had a role to play in so much that, as you can envisage a target as I’ve described in concrete on the ground, if left unchecked would soon be covered by debris, leaves, weeds, brambles, it wouldn’t be able to be seen, so it was father’s duty to maintain the target in a suitable condition for the bombing crew to see it.
MS: Now you did tell me something, you told me that your father had liaised with air force so he wasn’t there when a bombing raid occurred, but you also told me where he would stand if he found himself there.
GM: Yes.
MS: Which is where?
GM: He often dreaded that he’d misread the information that he used to receive from the Royal Air Force, saying when a bombing run was likely to take place, and he said to me- Well he said to several people, but me on several occasions, he said, ‘I often think, where would I of gone if I'd misjudged and found out I was clearing the target and the bombings- The bombers were preparing to test their knowledge’, and he thought well no, I’d probably be better stood in [emphasis] the target, because they’ll not hit it, surely.
MS: [Chuckles] A lot of confidence. Was the target- The target was obviously on your land?
GM: It was in the next field, which wasn’t owned by anybody as far as I know, but with it being close to our farm, within a field distance, father seemed to be the natural one to- Because, whether- I can’t remember but whether it was- ‘Cause it was a military site and so obviously, you know, it did exist but the reason I’m probably doing this interview was, I found out that all the records that I’ve seen, it doesn’t exist, it wasn’t there but, I have proof that it was there and necessary documentation to prove it.
MS: What was it surrounded by? If somebody wants to locate it, could you say where it was in relation to something?
GM: Yes, in- But it is on private land, the target is.
MS: Yep.
GM: As is the- The watch towers have since gone, they were there a long time, but as I indicated earlier, the bunker is still in existence, it’s a ruin but you can still walk down some steps and there are two rooms, underground, as I say it’s still there but it is on private land, so I’m not in a position to say that it’s accessible to the public.
MS: No, yep, ok. Also, when- Something- When you arranged for the memorial to go in, who did you go to? Was there organisation?
GM: Yep, I went to East Kirkby, which is a group of people that are passionate about the bombing campaigns, the two farmers that run it, they had a brother who was in the air force and who was lost on one of the bombing missions. So I contacted East Kirkby, which is a former RAF base in central Lincolnshire, and they were absolutely fantastic, came to see me, dedicated people, volunteers, and we excavated the site, found a lot of, of the aircraft, which is on display at East Kirkby, and I suggested to them that I would like to put up a monument of some sort, and they liaised with me and we came onto- We picked the site, we picked a large stone that we were going to use, and they cemented it into place and I can’t praise them enough.
MS: What was the reference number of the aircraft?
GM: I’ve got that down somewhere, and it’s EH977.
MS: And what airfield did it go- Come from?
GM: It came from Swinderby.
MS: Which is?
GM: Which is a matter of about five miles from the crash site, no more, and then of course as I said earlier, it was going fifty miles to the Wainfleet range on the coast.
MS: And didn’t make it?
GM: And didn’t make it.
MS: Ok. After the war then, what did you- How did the farm develop, and your own life?
GM: Well, I- As I said earlier-
MS: [Coughs] Excuse me.
GM: It- Some people might think, well he’s stupid but no, it’s still the same, this land has been in our possession for seventy- Over seventy years and as I say, when I go down there to the farm it’s lonely down, like all fens, which Lincolnshire has got a lot of fens, it’s a lonely, desolate area, but- So you’re immersed in your own thought, and as I say, I used to think of what happened all those years before, and all those men, and during those periods of cultivations of the land, preparing for drilling, I used to unearth an exploded target bomb, which proved to me that they didn’t always hit the target, it was quite a way away from it, and I used to have a collection of these items, ordinance they were, but they were sort of- Immediately they hit the ground, the emitted a plume of smoke which proved whether you were hitting the target, or whether you were quite a long way from it. I never do know how- What records were kept of how many crews actually [phone rings]-
MS: It’s ok, don’t worry, I shall just pause this for a second while you take the phone call, it’s not a problem. Right, we, we’ve restarted the interview after a shot interruption to take an important call, and just to remind you George, you were talking about- You were in touch with your own feelings and your emotions and your thoughts for the crew, as you were on the Fens, and over the years you unearthed stuff, wreckage from the aircrafts too.
GM: Yep, yep over the years I’ve looked behind whatever machine that I've been using on the farm, to cultivate the soil and low and behold, there is a practice bomb in the actual equipment I've been using, and over the years I've probably collected a dozen, at least [emphasis] and when these lads from East Kirkby came, they found a lot more in one place, so whether- I don’t know this, but whether the bomber in question dumped the whole lot, or whether they had a single bomb to practice with, that’s a thing I don’t know, similar story, but- However, I saved all these up and got about a dozen, and I put them in my garden shed and rang the police, and they said, ‘Well you’re an idiot’. This is fact [emphasis].
MS: Yep.
GM: This is fact and then I got in touch with the ordinance people at Nottingham and they came out and confirmed what I already knew, that they were basically harmless, they would knock me out if I, if I'd been struck with one, but it wouldn’t’ve exploded. So, they confirmed that I- Although I’d got know official thing to say that I knew what I was talking about, they said, ‘Well your interpretation is absolutely correct, it’s a small practice bomb which emits a plume of smoke for where it actually drops’. So, it was just a bit of fun but I was reprimanded by the police, but they didn’t take any further action.
MS: Right, your house, your farmhouse is reasonably close to the bombing range, wasn’t it?
GM: Very close.
MS: How close?
GM: Very close, about a thousand yards.
MS: Any near misses?
GM: Yes, yes, we were having lunch one ni- One day, in the middle of the day and we heard this explosion, and it was within fifty yards of the house itself, and we all went out and had a look and sure enough- But by the time that we had looked out, the aircraft in question had long gone so no way could I read the number at the side of the fuselage of the aircraft.
MS: Right, and what was your feeling about that? That near miss?
GM: Well, do you know? We laughed it off as a family, we went straight back and had our meal.
MS: What would happen today?
GM: Today? I think there’d have been all sorts of sirens going on, police, fire engine, ambulance, the area would’ve been cordoned off and so- As a- To make it sterile so that people couldn’t go on, but no [emphasis]. We knew where the bomb was, what happened to the bomb I can’t remember, but certainly I can remember it being very, very close.
MS: Actually, you’ve just touched on something I want to go back to. When the aircraft crash landed, it hit a dike I understand?
GM: Yes, it did.
MS: Right and it burned, fireball?
GM: Yep.
MS: What about contamination to your land from aviation fuel and everything else? How was that treated?
GM: Yeah, there would be a lot of fuel. Either way, I thought that with it being a fireball there must have been a lot of fuel on board. I can’t recollect any explosion, but certainly there were some animals, horses, cart horses in the field, most of them bolted out the way but one of them, particular, got very badly burnt.
MS: What about contamination of the land? Did it effect the [unclear]?
GM: The land itself, I don’t- I can’t recollect- There wasn’t as much environmental issues at that time as there are today. It was a large drain, there would’ve been water in it, so today if you contaminated a water supply there would be repercussions, but we were at war and therefore a lot of what we might term today as legally enforceable would not have applied because the government would have war like rules in place and so that sort of thing wouldn’t- As I say would not apply. But, the land itself [emphasis] certainly there was no effect, as I can recollect and I have cultivated the land where the crash site was, there’s certainly no contamination of a permanent nature.
MS: Ok, you also mentioned [unclear] when we had a chat earlier, if the aircraft had avoided the dike, what would its chances have been of landing in a field safely? Possibly?
GM: Well I always live in hope that it may well of survived, it might be wishful thinking, but the drain itself was of the depth and size, there’s no question the aircraft flipped over and any aircraft would’ve flipped over whatever size because of the depth of the ditch. Now the field over- If it had cleared the ditch, the field opposite was about twelve acres which is a reasonably large field in which an aircraft could possibly skid along and come to a halt. Whether that would’ve happened, I like to think it may well have happened, because there weren’t that many large fields, it was before the time of taking hedges out, so there weren’t that many large fields around.
MS: But what would the impediment have been? You tell me about some anti-invasion?
GM: Yep, it was probably a bit around 1941 when there was a threat of a glider invasion of the UK, and these large fields had poles put in them, eighteen-foot-high posts, telegraph post type things which we- Pit props I think they said origin- Originally came from, were put across to deter these gliders. Whether a large aircraft of that would’ve been broken up by them? Possibly. But you clutch at straws.
MS: Yeah, ok thank you. Let me just check something with Anita. Anita is there anything we need to recover?
AS: Only that you mentioned earlier that you’ve done some research since about the crew, and you’d found out where they were buried?
GM: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. According to the religion of a crew, which they would put down in their details on joining the RAF, whether it would be in their will or what, but some of them didn’t want a religious service, or religious burial, but others did, and so I have researched- I know where they’re all buried, all over the country. Two in Manchester, one local and the ones that I haven’t been to see yet, the pilot and the navigator, Australian, they’re buried in a cemetery, a RAF cemetery in Cambridge, together. As I say, I do have- I like to have projects because if you’ve got projects, you’ve got something to keep living for, and that is one of the things that I’ve got on my agenda.
MS: What to keep living? [Chuckles]
GM: Before too- [Laughs] Keep living and have projects. And so, as I say, I’ve been to three of them, it would be a great honour to go to the burial site and pay my respects to the Australian pilot and navigator.
MS: Have you- Have you or the people of East Kirkby contacted the relatives to tell them where the memorial is?
GM: Yes, they did indeed, and we had one person, from- Who’s the direct relative of one of the crew, I haven’t been- I haven’t been in contact with it, East Kirkby had obviously been in contact with him. Very quiet, reserved man, but he came to the unveiling ceremony of the memorial, and he was very moved, and that’s the only comment I can make about him.
MS: Ok, is there anything else at all you want to tell us about your recollections, or anything as a result of it, or anything interesting that we may want-
GM: Yep, when this became more public knowledge shall we say, there was a gentleman from Peterborough came to see me and he said, ‘I’m a Tail-End Charlie’. I said, ‘Well what is a Tail-End Charlie?’, well he said, ‘I was a rear gunner on a Stirling bomber’, and he said, ‘I’d be grateful if you could take me to the site of this crash’. So, I subtly took him to the site of the crash, and we had a fork with us and we merely chipped the soil and low and behold we found a part of the aircraft which- East Kirkby had taken most of it away, and it is on display at East Kirkby. Interesting, well worth a visit. But we found- And this gentleman recognised where this part came from on a Stirling bomber, and he wrote me a really good letter afterwards, he’d done thirty-two missions over Germany which was the amount that they used to do before they had a break. You could volunteer to go on some more missions if you wanted but usually that was the amount you did, and the percentage who made it to there wasn’t very high. However, he said to me, ‘The Striling aircraft was a good ol’ bird’, but it had its limitations as anybody who’s studied the performance of the aircraft will know.
MS: What were the main- What was the main limitation in your-
GM: Well as I said earlier it’s a huge aircraft, a big aircraft, bigger than the Lancaster, or the Whitley, or the Halifax, a huge bomber. It’s wingspan, somebody was telling me, was not good enough for the body of the aircraft because it had to fit in a certain hammer- Hangar, or a dispersal bay. Consequently, it was underpowered to get off the ground, and its height, the ceiling was about eighteen-thousand feet, I think this chap told me, well todays aircraft are at thirty-seven-thousand feet, and I would’ve thought the Lancaster would probably get to thirty. So, it was so low, it was within the flak range, accuracy of guns, and so at the latter stages of its life, the Stirling bomber went on with inverted commas ‘easier targets’.
MS: Right, not nice to know you sit in a sitting duck.
GM: But, as this Tail-End Charlie told me, a good ol’ bird.
MS: Yeah, right, he would, he survived [chuckles].
GM: Correct.
MS: Is there anything else you want to tell us?
GM: No, I think we’ve been comprehensive. We’ve covered- There’s no doubt, things evolve and we shall learn more, but as things stand at the moment, I think we’ve covered the basic facts.
MS: Thank you. Anything from you Anita?
AS: No.
MS: No, well on behalf of the archive, before I stop the interview, can I thank you very much for taking part and giving your time. The- You- It’s going into the- Onto the internet, all round the world they will hear your voice, anybody who wants to do so. I’m about to now stop the interview, so thank you very much.
GM: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Thomas Marsh
Creator
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Michael Sheehan
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMarshGT181217, PMarshGT1801
Format
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00:31:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-05
2015
Description
An account of the resource
George’s family lived on a farm at Bassingham Fen. His earliest memory of the war was when he was about two and a half, his father pointing out a Lancaster flying over. On 5 November 1944, EH977 Stirling crash-landed nearby and he saw the massive fireball. The horses in the field bolted, one died one survived badly burned. The aircraft was on its way to the Wainfleet site on a bombing practice with the Heavy Conversion Unit. The field adjacent to the crash site was a bombing range in which they practised dropping bombs on a concrete target maintained by George’s father. In 2015, following research, George unveiled a memorial for the crew at the crash site. Excavation by volunteers from Lincolnshire Aircraft Recovery Group gained parts of the aircraft now on display at RAF East Kirkby.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Tilly Foster
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
animal
childhood in wartime
crash
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
memorial
Operational Training Unit
RAF East Kirkby
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/941/11300/PMaconachieN1601.2.jpg
5c46b83a4bed0ab7b657d37cbee2afd8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/941/11300/AMaconachieN160608.2.mp3
05efc19e78fcbb39025c970ebdcb4cd1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maconachie, Norm
Norman Maconachie
N Maconachie
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Norm Machonachie (422865 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 630 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Maconachie, N
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JH: Good morning. This is John Horsburgh. It’s the 8th of June 2016. And I’m talking to Norm Maconachie this morning. We’re at in Killarney Heights in Sydney. Norm, perhaps we can start by telling us when, when and where you were born.
NM: I can’t remember the suburb. Newcastle, New South Wales. I can’t think of the suburb. But the first school I went to was in Hamilton in Newcastle.
JH: Yes. So, this is 19 —
NM: ’24. ‘24.
JH: ’24.
NM: Born in ’24. Yes.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yes.
JH: And I think you were telling me before your, your parents came out from —
NM: Sunderland. Sunderland.
JH: Sunderland.
NM: Yeah. In 1923.
JH: Yeah.
NM: In 1923.
JH: Yeah. So, that’s interesting. So, did your father have any history in the First World War?
NM: Yes. He was in France for four years as a corporal farrier in the British army. They used to call them the Old Contemptibles. The Kaiser called them the Old Contemptibles. They were the first English troops to go to France in the First World War.
JH: And he managed to survive the First World War.
NM: He survived. Yeah. He got the flu in 1918 which a lot of people died from. More people died with the flu in 1918 than were killed in the war.
JH: Oh goodness.
NM: Yeah.
JH: So, before we get on to your, your time in the air force. Bomber Command. Perhaps we can look at your early life. For example, growing up in Newcastle. And your schooling. Tell us a bit about that.
NM: I didn’t grow up in Newcastle. I only spent five years in Newcastle and then my parents went to a poultry farm in, in Westdale which is four miles west of Tamworth. On the road to Gunnedah. We lived there for about three years and we came to Sydney in 1932. And I left school just before I turned fourteen. In 1938. Got a job as an order boy in the chain grocery firm. Got sick of that bother by the time I was seventeen. At seventeen I went to work for Marcus Clark’s in Central, near Central Station in Sydney. And I joined the Air Training Corps when I was seventeen. And then on my eighteenth birthday I went down for my aircrew medical and I got, I was on the reserve a day, the next day after my eighteenth birthday I was on the reserve. And when was it? It would have been about late November I think I started my aircrew training at Initial Training School. Then I went to Parkes and Port Pirie. And on the 12th of August 1943 I sailed out of Sydney Harbour for San Francisco. That took fourteen days. We went across America by train to Massachusetts. And one of the boys got [pause] got something. I can’t think it was. Yellow Jaundice or something. Anyway, we had to, we were quarantined for about four weeks on the east coast of America. And we got a weeks’ leave in New York. And the people in, it was a town called Taunton about thirty miles in from Boston and the people spoiled us rotten. You know they couldn’t do enough for us. You’d be walking along the street and, ‘Where are you going? Where are you going, Aussie? Where are you going?’ ‘Boston.’ ‘Get in.’ And it’s only thirty miles away. ‘Get in and we’ll take you.’ [laughs] Terrific. Anyhow, in September we boarded the Aquitania in New York and we zigzagged across the Atlantic. It took about, I think it took eight or nine days and we finished up, we landed at Greenock in Scotland. And I think it’s on the Clyde.
JH: So did you, did you have a destroyer escort for the submarines?
NM: No. No. Those big boats didn’t have escorts. They were, they used to, they were fast and they zigzagged.
JH: Yeah.
NM: You know. But on, halfway through across the Atlantic I awoke, we were all woken up about 3 o’clock in the morning. Boom. Boom. Boom. You know the guns going off on the ship. On the Aquitania. And they think it was the four, a four engine Wulf, courier Wulf. Wulf. A German.
JH: A Focke Wulf.
NM: No. Yeah. But it wasn’t a, it wasn’t a fighter. The FW. I’ve forgotten any of the, the ME 109s and the FWs. They were the main fighters over Germany. And the ME 109, they used to bomb Brighton while we were there in October ’43. Yeah. Well, we got to —
JH: So, was there a bit of a panic that night or —
NM: Oh yeah. On the boat.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Well, there were fifteen thousand troops on the Aquitania.
JH: Yes.
NM: And half the Americans were black.
JH: Yes.
NM: And they were first up on the deck. You got killed in the rush sort of thing [laughs] But I know there was a bit of a panic but nothing happened and, but I suppose it was relaying up to the subs you know that we were there. But —
JH: Did you have, approaching Scotland did you have a Coastal Command? Did they come out and escort — ?
NM: No. I can’t remember that. No. We had Liberators when we left New York.
JH: Yes.
NM: Took us out as far as they could.
JH: Yeah.
NM: But I can’t remember any reception of people.
JH: Yeah.
NM: All, all I was thinking was of the Golden Gate Bridge over Frisco, you know.
JH: Yeah.
NM: And Alcatraz and —
JH: Yes.
NM: Anyhow, we got to Greenock in Scotland and then we got the train down to Brighton and we must have stayed there for a couple of months before —
JH: Yeah.
NM: Before we started training. Just after Easter.
JH: Did — when you arrived in Greenock —
NM: Yeah.
JH: Did you know where you were going? Or you —
NM: Oh yeah. We knew you were going to Brighton.
JH: You knew pretty well, you were going to Brighton.
NM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
NM: And a lot of the boy’s kit bags were slashed by the, by the wharfies, you know.
JH: Why? Why was that?
NM: Well, a lot of our boys brought stockings and things for the girls in England, you know.
JH: Yeah.
NM: From America. When we had our leaves in New York and Boston.
JH: Yes.
NM: And anyhow they, they just did that. But it didn’t, but it didn’t happen to me.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
NM: You know. So —
JH: Yeah.
NM: Yeah. And we got as I say we were there in Brighton a couple of months and then went up to Dumfries and a bloke called Merv Simpson was the first mate killed in Dumfries.
JH: Was that an OTU?
NM: No. That was an AFU.
JH: AFU.
NM: Advanced Flying Unit. Yeah.
JH: Advanced Flying Unit. Yeah. Yeah.
NM: Yeah. Merv Simpson. The only son of a widowed mother in Brisbane got killed in an Avro Anson. They hit a hill in fog one night. Or one [pause] yeah. So, that was our first casualty. And the bloke who topped our course had, in Australia when we got our half wing at Port Pirie was a bloke called Bill Creader. He, he was [pause] of Canterbury Boys High School in 1940. He topped our wireless course. He topped our gunnery course. About half a dozen blokes got commissions off our course and he wasn’t one of them. And he was one of the first killed and he’s buried in France.
JH: Really.
NM: So what a waste. Eh? What a waste. Yeah.
JH: So, were you assigned to 630 Squadron at that stage?
NM: No.
JH: This was later on.
NM: After OTU. After OTU we were crewed up.
JH: So, so you went from —
NM: Operational Training Unit.
JH: From Dumfries to OTU.
NM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Where was that?
NM: Market Harborough.
JH: Market Harborough.
NM: Yeah. Yeah. What was the question?
JH: Well, I was just asking at what point were you assigned to 630 Squadron and there you said at OTU.
NM: No. From, no, from OTU we went to Conversion Unit on Stirlings.
JH: Yes.
NM: As a crew. And then we went to Lanc Finishing School but we were crewed. You get crewed up at OTU. Operational Training Unit.
JH: That’s interesting. I noticed reading through your logbook you were with your pilot pretty well all the way through from then on.
NM: From OTU. Yeah.
JH: I’d be interested to know about this crewing up. How that happened and a bit about your crew.
NM: Well, you crewed up.
[telephone ringing]
NM: Excuse me. I’ll get this.
[recording paused]
JH: Yeah. We just paused. Norm took a phone call. So, we’re back. Back on air.
NM: Right. Well, at OTU everybody was there. Our pilot, navigators, wireless operators, air gunners [pause] flight engineers. And you just made your way around, you know like but I was hanging back, you know. I was hanging back and two, two English gunners said to the skipper, ‘We know an Aussie. An Aussie who hasn’t got a crew yet.’ So, I formed then. I formed up with them. And I was lucky that we survived [laughs] The, but I had, I put it down to the pilot, you know. He was, I think he’d done about four hundred hours in Canada and he was a very, a very confident bloke you know. And he was good. He was a good pilot. We landed three times with the bombs up.
JH: What was his name, Norm?
NM: Jimmy Ovens.
JH: Jimmy Ovens.
NM: Well, that, that —
JH: Yeah.
NM: His name, it was, his name was Les Ovens.
JH: Yes.
NM: But we didn’t. We knew him as Jimmy.
JH: Yeah.
NM: As Jim.
JH: Where did he come from originally?
NM: Essex.
JH: Oh, he was English.
NM: Yeah. They were all English except me.
JH: You were the only Aussie.
NM: I was the dehydrated Australian [laughs] Yeah.
JH: Very good.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Ok. So, so you crew up. You crewed up.
NM: Yeah.
JH: And then you were posted to East Kirby. Is that correct?
NM: Kirk. Kirk.
JH: Kirkby.
NM: Kirkby. Yeah
JH: In Lincolnshire.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yes. In 5 Group.
NM: Yeah. That’s right.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: So, what was it like? Your first first time at the squadron. When you arrived.
NM: It wasn’t bad. All the camps were pretty good over there.
JH: Yeah.
NM: We were well fed you know and I couldn’t complain. A bloke [laughs] nineteen years of age [laughs] You, you wouldn’t call the king your uncle.
JH: That would be in ’44. 1944.
NM: Yeah. October. About the 29th of September ’44 we got to the squadron.
JH: Yeah.
NM: And we didn’t do our first trip ‘til the, about the 3rd of October. I think. It was a daylight.
JH: Yes. Tell us about your first operation.
NM: It was a daylight on Wilhelmshaven and I’d never seen that many planes in the air [laughs] at one time. Especially in the daylight, you know. But it was uneventful. Uneventful. We just hit the target and went home.
JH: Was that with the Americans or the RAF?
NM: No. No. That was strictly RAF.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Strictly Lancasters.
JH: Had you done any nickel raids before?
NM: No. No.
JH: Yeah.
NM: No. No.
JH: Yes.
NM: No. No.
JH: Yes.
NM: We just went straight on. In those days your pilot always did a second dickie with a crew on the squadron. Just to get the feel of it. Just to get the idea of what it was all about, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
NM: But I don’t know who he did his with but that would have been before Wilhelmshaven anyhow.
JH: Yes. And so I notice in your logbook a lot of operations in Germany. Maybe you could tell me about, you know, one or two hairy operations you were on.
NM: Got caught in searchlights over, over Holland. Going in one night. For about ten minutes. And the skipper, as I said a good pilot. He got us, he got us out of the searchlights.
JH: Yeah. By a corkscrew manoeuvre.
NM: Yeah. That’s right. A corkscrew manoeuvre. And what scared me the most was doing the corskscrew on full tanks and a full bomb load I thought the wings were going to come off. You could hear the strain, you know in the wings. But the things that frightened me most on any trip were the searchlights. We’d be going along. We’d be going along and you’d look out on the port side and you’d see a whole of valley of searchlights, you know. And the next thing the navigator’s telling the pilot to turn into them [laughs] So you’re going down the middle of them, you know. And that frightened me more than anything. Searchlights.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Yeah. Over Munich one night though we, we had an FW190 came down under us. I don’t know whether he’d been attacking us but he came down and he went up like that and you could see the crosses on the wings, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: But that was, that was more exciting than frightening.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
NM: As I say at nineteen. You’ve got no brains when you’re nineteen. You don’t think about things like that. But you wouldn’t, I don’t suppose you’d, [laughs] you’d have even joined aircrew —
JH: Yeah
NM: If you were worried or thought about things like that.
JH: Yes.
NM: Like you say with the beer it was well for us it was just beer and girls, you know [laughs]
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yes. So, were there any operations where you really earned your beer in the pub as a wireless operator? You know, for instance did you have to get into an emergency aerodrome on any occasion?
NM: Oh yes. Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
NM: We had quite a few. Well, three or four times we were diverted.
JH: Yes.
NM: To other, other places because of fog over your own, over home.
JH: Yes.
NM: But you get the message. You’d get the message when you were half way home you know.
JH: Yes
NM: So let’s say [unclear]
JH: Yes.
NM: Put it that way.
JH: And apparently on some occasions the wireless operator and the emergency aerodrome couldn’t contact for whatever reason. And sometimes you’d have to find a way of getting their attention.
NM: Well, you knew where you were going. But once you got, once you got over England the pilot had RT, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: Like when you got home like [pause] Gauntly Zebra Silksheen. That’s right. Our station was, “Silksheen” The call sign was “Silksheen.” The squadron sign was “Gauntly.” And then you had the aircraft’s Z. So the pilot when you were over, when you got near the aerodrome the pilot would just ring up, say, ‘Gauntly Zebra to Silksheen,’ and then they’d come back and say, ‘Circle field at five thousand feet,’ or six thousand feet. And then you’d gradually come down until you got on the circuit. And then you’d hit the funnels.
JH: Yeah.
NM: And come in.
JH: Yes. Did you ever have any, any fighters, German fighters coming close at that stage?
NM: JU88s used to go to England when we were coming home and they used to shoot our blokes down as you were landing. They called them intruders and our, and our fighters did the same thing in Germany.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah. But we were lucky there. We never stuck any of that.
JH: Yes. What about the upward firing fighters? Did you come across them?
NM: I didn’t come across those.
JH: Yeah.
NM: I don’t think anybody even saw them.
JH: Yes.
NM: Anybody who was shot down by one of those —
JH: That’s right.
NM: They just came up underneath.
JH: That’s a good point.
NM: And I’ve often wondered like if they hit a four thousand pounder in the bomb bay.
JH: Yeah.
NM: How, that would affect the bloke who was underneath you.
JH: He would have copped it as well.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah
JH: Yeah. Yeah. What, what was one of the worst nights for the squadron?
NM: Well, actually one of the worst on percentages was eleven of us went out on our second last trip to Leipzig and two of them didn’t come back. One just disappeared. Never heard of again. And then the other one. One of the crew was killed and the others were taken POW. But that was only — what was that? That was the 9th of April. So, it was only, it was a month before the war finished. So they were only POWs for a month.
JH: Yeah.
NM: But they did say to them. The Germans said, ‘Don’t tell anybody that you were on Dresden.’
JH: Yeah.
NM: If you want to live, you know.
JH: Yeah. You would have been lynched.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Maybe.
NM: Yeah. Oh yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. Were you on any of the Dresden raids at all?
NM: No.
JH: Yeah.
NM: I was on leave.
JH: Yes.
NM: When we did Dresden.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Yeah. A couple of my mates were. One just died recently. He was on Dresden.
JH: Yes.
NM: But you know it’s a waste. Its —
JH: Yeah.
NM: You don’t like [pause] just you don’t like talking about it really, you know. It’s — and none of my kids are a bit interested, see.
JH: Yes.
NM: Four of them up there on the wall.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
NM: They couldn’t care less, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah. And good luck to them you know.
JH: Yeah.
NM: That’s the way it should be. Yeah.
JH: But maybe your grandkids.
NM: Well, they might. Yeah.
JH: Might be interested.
NM: They might. Yeah.
JH: Or will be. Yeah. Yeah. So, I was going to ask you. I think 630 Squadron was involved at the end. End of the war on picking up the POWs.
NM: Most of them.
JH: You mentioned some POWs there.
NM: Yeah. Well, I was —
JH: Yeah.
NM: I’d finished a tour by then.
JH: Yes.
NM: And so I wasn’t in that.
JH: Ok.
NM: I would have liked to have been in it.
JH: Yes.
NM: Because it was, as well as picking up POWs you could see what, what sort of hell you’d inflicted on the poor buggers, you know.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Well, that, that’s an amazing logbook you’ve got there. It really is. Reading. Reading through and to come through all that. So you did a tour?
NM: Yeah. Did it.
JH: Yeah.
NM: I think it’s in there.
JH: Yeah.
NM: It’s in there.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Tour completed. Yeah.
JH: And so the end of your tour pretty well coincided with the end of hostilities. Was it? Or —
NM: A month before.
JH: Yeah. So, you could have gone on if you, if you’d wanted to do but I guess the crew, for the crew that was it.
NM: Well, actually after the war the RAF was getting you ready to come out here with a, with a mob they called Tiger Force. So, they were going to call it Tiger Force.
JH: Yes.
NM: But then the atom bomb finished all that.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. So perhaps you could tell me a little about what it was like, you know you had leave in in the UK. Did you go to London?
NM: Oh yeah. London.
JH: Yes.
NM: Bath and Bristol and Brighton.
JH: Yes.
NM: Went to Stratford on Avon. We got a lot of leave. We got nine days leave.
JH: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: Every five weeks.
JH: Yeah. So would you go with your crew? Or —
NM: No. No. I had relations. My mother’s sister and her husband lived in Sunderland.
JH: Yes. Of course.
NM: And I used to go there a lot on leave.
JH: Yes.
NM: But other times I’d just, we’d go to London and you’d meet up with blokes. The Australians. Australia House was a sort of a — they called it the Boomerang Club in London.
JH: Yes.
NM: And if you were at a loose end you’d just go there in the morning and have morning tea. And then you’d probably go to the local pub for a beer.
JH: Yeah.
NM: You’d meet. You’d generally always meet someone you knew.
JH: Yes.
NM: When you were on leave in London.
JH: Yes.
NM: Because you’d go with the Boomerang Club. And I think the favourite pub in London for Australians was a place called Codgers.
JH: Yes. Codgers. Yeah.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Well, Boomerang Club is famous isn’t it?
NM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don’t know. I don’t know if they — I don’t know if Australians today meet there. I think it’s most Australians are in Earl’s Court aren’t they?
JH: Yeah. That’s correct.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yes.
NM: But it was Australia House but they opened it up for us. Most of the blokes, well all the blokes I knew — well, most ninety percent of the blokes you’d see in there were air force. Australian Air Force.
JH: Yes.
NM: Reading or, you know.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Waiting to meet mates.
JH: Yes. So, and VE day. Were you in England for VE day?
NM: VE Day. VE Day I was at Aircrew Officer’s School in Hereford. Yeah. Pretty sure it was Hereford. Yeah.
JH: Yes.
NM: And of course as you can imagine what it was like. You’ve seen it on TV.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: So, so then it was time to think about coming home. How long were you waiting? Did you go to Brighton for instance?
NM: Yeah. We went to Brighton.
JH: And waiting for a ship.
NM: Yeah. I think, yeah we went back to Brighton when I finished the tour. Went back to Brighton and I finished the tour in, on the 16th of April ’45. And didn’t leave England ‘til September. I’m not sure what the date was.
JH: Yes.
NM: And apart from that course that I did which only lasted a month we were on leave all the time.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
NM: That was —
JH: Well deserved.
NM: [laughs] I don’t know about that but it was, it was pretty good I’ll tell you.
JH: Yes. So, so at some point you were assigned to a boat.
NM: Oh yeah.
JH: To come home.
NM: Stratheden.
JH: Yeah.
NM: We came home on the Stratheden.
JH: Stratheden. Yeah.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
NM: First class.
JH: Yes.
NM: Oh yeah.
JH: And did that, was that the one that went to New Zealand first and then to Australia?
NM: No. That was the USS Mount Vernon. We went from here to San Francisco.
JH: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
NM: That’s where, that’s where I went. That’s where I learned to like jam and cheese.
JH: Yeah.
NM: You got jam and cheese on your bread. These Yanks [laughs]
JH: So, how, how did you pass your time on the long voyage?
NM: We used to play a lot of five hundred.
JH: Yeah.
NM: That’s about all.
JH: Yeah.
NM: I mean, you’d be detailed for duties.
JH: Yeah.
NM: In the kitchen.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Peeling spuds and all that sort of thing.
JH: Yeah.
NM: So, but we generally filled in our time, spare time, playing bridge. And often at night you’d sleep on the deck, you know.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Because balmy nights you know.
JH: Yes. Of course.
NM: On the Pacific. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. So, where did you dock? In Sydney?
NM: When we came home?
JH: Circular Quay.
NM: Circular Quay.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Family waiting for you.
NM: No. Dad. Dad and my brother.
JH: Yes.
NM: Were waiting.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Mum didn’t come in.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Yeah.
JH: So, homecoming and then you had to think about jobs and things.
NM: Back to my old job. Back to my old job at Marcus Clarks.
JH: Yes.
NM: And I was there for twelve months and then I started a carpentry course with the [unclear] out there. They had a Commonwealth Reconstruction Training Scheme in this country.
JH: Yes.
NM: And you could, if you passed the enter, three years you do a twelve month course to get to [unclear] and then you could be a doctor, a lawyer, a dentist.
JH: Yes.
NM: A plumber, a carpenter. Whatever you wanted to do.
JH: Yes.
NM: An accountant. And not everybody took advantage of that.
JH: I see.
NM: And I didn’t wake up to it ‘til about twelve months after the war.
JH: Yes.
NM: And —
JH: So then you took advantage of that.
NM: I did carpentry. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then family. You got married.
NM: Didn’t get married till ’52.
JH: ’52. Yeah. Yes.
NM: Sixty four years ago.
JH: Yes. Yes. And I see, well you’ve got four children and —
NM: Yeah. Two boys and two girls. Yeah.
JH: And grandchildren now.
NM: Six grandkids.
JH: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Yeah. You got any grandkids?
JH: Yeah. I’ve got one.
NM: Oh have you?
JH: A grandson. Yeah.
NM: Oh right.
JH: Two kids and one grandson.
NM: You’ll be, you’ll be in line for a great grandfather.
JH: Yes. Yeah. Well, that, that’s fantastic. So, maybe we could finish off by talking about well for example are you involved in, do you keep in touch with the Squadron Associations and the Bomber Command Association for example?
NM: I’m a life subscriber to the Air Force Association.
JH: Yes.
NM: And I’ve been a member of the RSL since 1945.
JH: Yes.
NM: Because they hooked you as soon as you got off the boat [laughs]
JH: Yes. Yeah. Well, that’s good. Yeah. And so, yeah can I ask you what, what your views are on the way Bomber Command was, was treated after the war? You know. There was no campaign medal.
NM: Well, look John I’ve never thought much about it. All I ever thought about was meeting the mates on Anzac Day. And I didn’t, I didn’t think much about it. I wasn’t that interested in what anybody thought about it, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: It doesn’t matter what you do. There’s going to be people who like it and people who don’t.
JH: Yes.
NM: But I don’t regret doing it, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: But I do think, I do think that it’s getting to the stage where they should be talking more about the Kokoda Track.
JH: Yes.
NM: Because that threatened Australia, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: And the way they go on about Gallipoli. Sure. Terrible. Terrible tragedy Gallipoli but only one sixth of Australians were killed at Gallipoli.
JH: Yes.
NM: Compared to the Western Front.
JH: Yes.
NM: In France.
JH: Yeah.
NM: Forty eight thousand, you know.
JH: That’s a very good point. Yeah.
NM: Yeah. Yeah.
JH: Yeah. So, I get the feeling that it was very much that you were doing it for your crew to a large extent. You had this bonding with your crew. Your pilot.
NM: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. That would be right. But even then, when you went on leave unless one of the crew asked you to come home with them or something like that.
JH: Yes.
NM: As I said I used to go to relatives in Sunderland.
JH: Yes.
NM: And, and I had relatives in a little village between Bath and Bristol.
JH: Yes.
NM: Called Keynsham.
JH: Yes.
NM: And that was a nice little place too, you know.
JH: Yes.
NM: But what I liked about England were the villages.
JH: Yes.
NM: You know. Terrific.
JH: Yes. Have you been back?
NM: No. I haven’t been back. No.
JH: To Kirkby?
NM: No. No. I haven’t been back.
JH: Yeah.
NM: If my skipper. My skipper died when he was seventy two.
JH: Yes.
NM: And if he’d have been alive when I retired I would have definitely gone back to see him.
JH: Yes.
NM: Because he wrote. He started writing to us. All the crew. He started writing to us in about 19 — not until about 1988.
JH: Yes.
NM: As a matter of fact I got a ring from a girl in Sydney and she asked me my name. And she said he became a special constable.
JH: Yes.
NM: As well as his ordinary job.
JH: Yes.
NM: He became a special constable in the police force and this girl, this woman in Sydney she, she was at a function in England when my skipper was there. I think she might have been sitting next to him or something. He said, ‘When you go back to Sydney see if you can find a bloke called Norm Maconachie.’ [laughs] Which she, which she did. She rang up and she said that his name was Les, Les Ovens. ‘No,’ I said, ‘I didn’t know a Les. I knew a Jim.’
JH: Yes.
NM: Jim Ovens. And it was the same bloke.
JH: And it was the him. It was him.
NM: And he finished up the secretary of the 57 630 Squadron Association.
JH: Yeah.
NM: In England. And he was very keen.
JH: Yes.
NM: Very keen.
JH: Yes.
NM: And he had a wife who he looked after. She was ill.
JH: Yes.
NM: And she died and [paused] she died and he only lasted a couple of months after. He collapsed shopping one Saturday morning with a heart attack and that was it.
JH: Yes. Well, Norm. I’m — that’s a great story you’ve been telling and I’m privileged to be the one asking you the questions. So I’d like to thank you.
NM: Oh, I was only one.
JH: For all this.
NM: Out of a hundred and twenty five thousand.
JH: Yes. Yeah.
NM: And in, in Australia in 1942 we had a population of seven million people. And nine hundred thousand of them were in uniform in 1942.
JH: Yeah.
NM: We’ve always seemed to have [unclear] a lot more, you know.
JH: They’d done their bit. Thank you.
NM: Yeah. Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Norm Maconachie
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Horsburgh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMaconachieN160608, PMaconachieN1601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:33:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Norm Maconachie volunteered for aircrew as soon as he was of age having already been a member of the Air Training Corps. While sailing to the UK he was woken at 3am to the sound of the guns on the Aquitania firing on a Focke Wulf Condor which was on reconnaissance. On arrival in the UK he was posted to Dumfries AFU for further training and there witnessed the first loss of one of his mates who was killed in a training accident. While operational Norm’s greatest fear was the searchlights.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Atlantic Ocean
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-08-12
1944-09
630 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
fear
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
RAF Dumfries
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Market Harborough
searchlight
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/877/11117/PHolmanR1801.1.jpg
e5c390037a7d41f413ac541343dfec5e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/877/11117/AHolmanR180420.2.mp3
5659b7dca378571930fa25c36b22621e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holman, Robert
R Holman
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Aircraftman Robert Holman (1925 3020209, Royal Air Force) official documents, a service history and photographs. After training as an engine fitter he served on HQ 5 Group servicing section as a mobile engineer carrying out major servicing at large number of 5 Group bomber stations. In 1945 he transferred to the Fleet Air Arm before demobilisation in 1946.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert Holman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Holman, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IL: Robert, tell us a little bit about your early life and how you came to be in the RAF.
RH: Well, well, I joined the Air Training Corps and we used to go to Pocklington for weekends and I saw one that crashed and blocked the road at Pocklington with the wings across the road, blocking the road, and the fuselage in the gutter. And eh we had flights in the eh and we had weeks camps at Pocklington under canvas opposite the aerodrome and eh I, I really got attached, the, the main thing and the prize was the RAF uniform. It was a collar and tie, a smart uniform, and we stood out from the rest of the servicemen and the pride me father had on his face when I went on the weekend leave from after three weeks at Arbroath they gave us a seventy two hour pass before we went back for six weeks of field training after square bashing three weeks and eh the admiration with the uniform because the rest of the people just had ordinary khaki uniforms, no collars and ties. So we stood out from the rest of ‘em and then from, from eh Arbroath I went down into Lincolnshire a place called Skendleby.
IL: Right.
RH: It was a UTFLE.
IL: What does that stand for?
RH: Under Training.
IL: Oh I see. [laughter] Okay. Okay. So, but just take a step, just to take a step back. You were born and brought up in Leeds.
RH: Yes.
IL: At Seacroft.
RH: Yes.
IL: Okay and you also em but you, and you left school at fourteen.
RH: Left school at fourteen.
IL: And what, what did you do after you left school?
RH: I went to work in the boot and shoe industry, putting shoe uppers which was a craftsman’s job.
IL: Right.
RH: You know, even at, even at that job I had to wear a tie, so, ‘cause it was a different department making [unclear] fitting but the clicking department was the craftsman’s.
IL: So who, who were you working for? Was it just a - ?
RH: S [?] J Parsons
IL: Was that a shoe manufacturers in Leeds?
RH: Five hundred people worked there.
IL: Oh right. Okay.
RH: Men and women and they made shoes for all the different shoe companies.
IL: Aah! Okay. Okay. But you, you joined as a, you, you, you became an engineer. But that’s what you were doing in the ATC wasn’t it? How did you decide, who, who decided or did someone decide for you that you were going to do engineering rather than flight crew or, you know, learning to fly? ‘Cause a lot of the boys obviously who did ATC were just there because they wanted to fly.
??: You were very good with engines weren’t you Robert? [background chatter]
RH: [mumbles] I was very mechanical and I still remember my six month course such as eh induction, compression, power, exhausts, the four strokes of the internal combustion engine and eh the first job that I did was at East Kirkby when I passed out as a flight mechanic after six months was adjusting the contact breaker points on a magneto which was twelve thou’ plus or minus one, with a feeler gauge and I often used to stand at the side of the flight path and watch the Lancasters take off with admiration of the beautiful aircraft. It was all operated by just a little, a couple of brass studs, eh it was a magneto that were firing the spark across to lift them off with bomb loads on and everything.
IL: You must have felt very proud watching them take off when you, when you know, when you knew that –
RH: It was a real sense of achievement.
IL: Yeah.
RH: It was a real sense of achievement and admiration and you put your, your thumb up to the crew and they put their thumb up back and you wished them well with a little prayer, secretly.
IL: Absolutely, absolutely.
RH: And eh, you know, that was, that was a [unclear] but as I say, the very point of the conversations the ground technicians, the cookhouse people, the first aid people, none of them were ever mentioned in any books to do with the RAF and they were all aircrew, aircrew, aircrew. And I’ve nothing but admiration for the aircrew but without the ground staff working all night long in snow, rain, all of us, [emphasis] you didn’t do eight hour shifts. You were on the airfield sometimes at 7 o’clock in the morning and you were still there at 4 o’clock next morning.
IL: Right. So there wasn’t a sort of, you know, did you do, was it like, were you there, were you working seven days a week or did you have days of, or?
RH: The, we had the power plant bays, you had to do strip and build four engines.
IL: Right.
RH: So we used to work till 10 o’clock at night time and instead of taking ten days to do ‘em, we did ‘em in nine days, so we got a day off.
IL: Right. [chuckles] Okay. So that, so, it was, you spent roughly a couple of days with each engine?
RH: Yes.
IL: And so, did the engines, when you say stripping them and rebuilding them?
RH: New, new eh exhaust studs, new piston rings, new eh new valves and everything.
Il: So is it a bit like em an MOT?
[mumbling in background]
IL: So that you, each aircraft, each engine..
RH: All the aircraft had what they call a DI, daily inspection, where you look for obvious faults.
IL: Yeah.
RH: Where you took the [unclear] up and had a look for obvious leaks or anything and eh then they had minors after so many hours, then they had majors after many more hours and so that’s the how it worked.
IL: So how many, how –
RH: When you’d done a job, the first shock I got after leaving Cosford was when the sergeant said “Jump in and give the aircrew a bit of confidence in your work.” [laughter] And so I went up in Lancasters for fifty minutes at a time. From East Kirkby and places like that.
IL: So you, so you, you were flying in them just to give them –
RH: Confidence in the work. [laughter]
IL: That’s pretty good, isn’t it? [emphasis]
RH: That, that was the, we went up at Syerston and we’d worked on this aircraft it had crash landed and eh nose had gone into the, off the runway, into the grass at the side. We put new engines in and he says “Jump in and give the aircrew a bit of confidence.” And the only time we got chutes, Scotch bloke and meself, we went and got chutes and as it were flying, the wings were trembling, all the rivets had been shot to pieces. And as it jumped out he undid his chute, he pulled the ripcord [laughter] he couldn’t get out fast enough. And that were the only time [coughing] we used eh the chutes.
IL: Yeah.
??: Tell him that funny story about when you were measuring the, with the feeler gauges, and that other person came and said “I’ll take over.”
RH: No, that were after VE day, I got a call at East Kirkby and I was doing me LAC course, I was a first class, and I’d been working on, in the background, a spanner, I had to make a spanner as part of me LAC test and I’d made me spanner and I went into the office to see the sergeant and a phone call came through to go for injections for overseas, and the next thing I was at RAF Locking, Weston-Super-Mare being transferred into the Fleet Air Arm as we were still at war with Japan.
IL: Right.
RH: And so I wound up in the Fleet Air Arm for nearly a year and I went to work in a place, it may well have been Shropshire, HMS Gotwit it was called and there were Oxford aircraft, and I were working on them and so, it was common practice to jump in those like having a cup of tea. Then the war was coming to an end so you took advantage of having a few flights.
IL: Absolutely.
RH: But, what Dennis is talking about is, I was running this Oxford up where you had to build it up to one hundred and twenty pounds per square inch on the clock for the break pressure, to build the break pressure up. And this NCO came in and says, “What you doing? Get out.” And I got out the seat and he shot the throttles forward and jumped over the chocks and he went across the perimeter track into two other aircraft and got three aircraft off.
IL: Oooh! [emphasis] So I bet he was popular?
RH: Well, he eh, on the eh, eh, column, it was the RT button that was fastened with black tape, so he undid the black tape and put it behind the break and somebody else got the blame for it.
IL: Ooh. That’s very naughty isn’t it? Em, just coming back to your Bomber Command, you were, you were posted to Lincolnshire, but we’ve, you weren’t just based in one air, one, one, one air, one air, you weren’t just based in one air base? You, you travelled around quite a bit.
RH: I was based at Headquarters 5 Group. When they wanted any help at any of the airfields, we were in a Bedford van with a WAAF driver, being taken to Fiskerton, Wigsley, Syerston, Waddington, Scampton. The Dambusters went from Scampton.
IL: Oh absolutely.
RH: I went from Scampton to Lincoln Military to get me appendix out.
IL: Really? So you had, so you had your appendix out during the war as well?
RH: Yes, at Lincoln Military and from Lincoln Military they sent me to a place called Southwell, South’all.
IL: Oh yes, near Nottingham.
RH: And it was a stately home. Eh and eh they eh [rustling noise in background]
IL: Aah! [emphasis] Okay. So you, so you got three weeks off for your appendix?
RH: Yes.
IL: That’s a, that’s not bad is it really?
RH: Well, I, [background chuckle] I was taken to Lincoln Military, then we got three weeks convalescence at Southwell.
IL: Yeah.
RH: And the Women’s’ Institute at Nottingham used to lay parties on in Nottingham with a tea and a show, very kind, you know.
IL: Yeah.
RH: And eh, going back to kindness, the people in Lincolnshire, we used to go out from different camps, two or three of us, one of the chaps used to be a religious person and he used to say how he’d seen the light, and we went back to the farmhouses for a good meal [laughter] and the tables were laid out with lovely food and, you know, eh beautiful stuff, and he, as I say, we were sat in the background while he were going on about seeing the light and we were invited back for a nice meal.
??: Tell him about –
IL: ‘Cause it must have been, well it must have been nice to sort of be in a farming county, ‘cause presumably it improved what you were actually getting to eat.
RH: Well, yeah, we used to go out on push bikes, two of us, a chap on there were called Bob Twigg, and we eh used to go out miles away from camp on push bikes and knock on door and ask if they had got any eggs for us to take home when we went home, and he used to tell a story about his wife just having a baby, in a bad way, and so they used to feel sorry for him and they used to give us eggs.
IL: Was he married?
RH: Eh?
IL: Was he married?
RH: He was married. [laughter]
IL: Well, that’s all right then [laughter]
RH: We were rationed to an egg a week at home.
IL: Yeah.
RH: The civilians were rationed to an egg a week. And eh, that were that, and eh, you know, we used to do different things like that.
IL: So were you rationed to, as a, as a, in the RAF? ‘Cause one of the things that obviously, you know, we’ve heard from eh some of the aircrew over the years, is that the one thing that they always seemed to get whatever time of day was bacon and eggs.
RH: That’s right.
IL: So were you, were you allowed to have the, were you, were you, did you share the bacon and eggs?
RH: No, no but we, we eh as a unit I had a pass, 5 Group Servicing Section, and I could go into the cookhouse any time of the night and get a meal.
IL: Right.
RH: ‘Cause I were working up to ten or eleven or twelve o’clock at night and I could go and get a meal in cookhouse with me pass.
IL: Right. So what, when you were working, how, how long, what sort of, you were working very long hours sometimes. Was that, sort of, you worked until the job was done or –
RH: We were waiting for the aircraft.
IL: Right. Okay.
RH: We were waiting for the aircraft. In me diary it’s recorded that I worked on F for Freddie sort of thing waiting for the aircraft.
IL: Okay. So you, so when they’d arrived back they’d go into the hangar, then you’d,
RH: Yeah.
IL: you’d. Were you always work on one air, so, obviously most of the, the [telephone ringing in background] well [background talking]
RH: We didn’t know what we were gonna be working on, we just went into the flight office and they said, you know “Go out and do so and so, so and so.” You got the cowlings off and [unclear] it all, and drained the oil and whatever wanted doing and whatever other things in the diary here. [mumbles]
IL: So how often did, how often did you, you know you mentioned about minor services and major services, so how often would a plane, how, how many hours did a plane, an engine have to do before it had to go in for service?
RH: I think it was something, they had DI every day that you checked for obvious things.
IL: Yeah. But if there was nothing wrong with, if there was nothing wrong on inspection?
RH: Twenty nineth of Monday, January 1945 ‘Worked till 9 o’clock gave it studs and bearer bolts and gun turret pump drained.’
IL: Right. So it wasn’t just the engines you worked on as well, sort of you know, gun turret pump as well, so you worked on the eh –
RH: It was all part of the accessories to the engine.
IL: Right. So you worked on, you worked on anything mechanical within the air, within the aircraft?
RH: Nothing worked without – every other trade the RT people and everybody else had to wait till the engines were running.
IL: Right.
RH: You know, the gun turrets and everything operated from the engines.
IL: So when you were working on – say doing a major service, how many of you would be working on that, on that particular plane?
RH: There would be probably about eight or ten of us.
IL: Right. Okay.
RH: Two each of us you know, starboard or port, starboard aft, port aft. [?] You know what I mean.
IL: Yeah. And so how, how long would an aircraft be out of commission while you were working on it, say doing a major, a major service?
RH: Probably em two or three days.
IL: Right. Okay. ‘Cause you were saying that you had four – is it four at a time, you had four, four at a time?
RH: That was in the power plant bay. We used to bring four engines in that had been taken out of aircraft.
IL: Right.
RH: So you’d strip ‘em of the exhaust manifold, cylinder head, and all the other scraper rings and piston rings and replace ‘em all, and do that with four of ‘em.
IL: Right. And that – you were given ten days to do four? Is that right?
RH: That’s right.
IL: But you managed to usually do it in nine, so you got a day off?
RH: We used to work till ten o’clock or probably longer so we could get that day off.
IL: So what did you do for leisure? What was your, what was your –
??: I’m going to have to go Robert. Are you okay?
RH: Yes. Yeah. Okay Dennis.
??: I’m just going for some shopping. But I just wanted to be about when –
RH: Yes. Big thank you for your efforts.
??: Don’t forget to tell him some of your funny stories.
IL: Oh aye. We’ll get round to those.
??: The firecracker one. [laughter]
IL: It’s lovely to meet you Dennis. Take care.
??: Take care.
RH: Thanks for coming Dennis.
??: When I see Archie – What’s your surname?
IL: Ian Locker. I say, he, he won’t know me.
??: No.
IL: So, we’re back on again.
RH: So we used to hitchhike up from Newark to Leeds you know, to Seacroft crossroads and one funny decision, we were on the bridge at Doncaster, thumbing a lift and this car pulled up and an officer, army officer got out and me and this Bob Twigg, and another flight mechanic, jumped in and it was a staff car. He hadn’t stopped to let us in, he’d stopped to let this senior officer out and it were a sergeant driving so he must have been a senior rank. He had red epaulettes on his uniform and so we got almost to the crossroads in a staff car.
IL: Very nice. [emphasis] [laughs]
RH: Another time we had a lift and we were on like a, like a wagon with dead sheep in. You know, we’d still got the [unclear] on and we were stood on back of the cab of the driver, standing on dead sheep.
IL: So was that, so did you, you came back to Leeds even just for a day? Sometimes?
RH: Oh yes. Quite often.
IL: Right.
RH: Yeah. You used to hitchhike up.
IL: Did you have a lady friend in Leeds?
RH: No, not for – that’s another thing, one of the lads who came from Swansea, Fred, Frank Selwood, he married a NAAFI girl from the East Kirkby NAAFI. He came to live in Seacroft, ‘cause she lived in Seacroft.
IL: Right.
RH: So he met his wife and as I say, that he was a Taffy, but he came to live at Seacroft.
IL: Right.
RH: And he used to come round every Sunday for tea.
IL: [laughter] What, to your Mum and Dad’s, or is this, were you coming home to parents or?
RH: Well, yeah, obviously you know, the family were all still going on. I was only a boy, I weren’t married, you know. There were plenty of girlfriends every – it was just eh one girl up in Dundee who came to Arbroath, gave me her address and we were pen pals for all, all war. Never met her again, and after the war she got married, and then I sent her a wedding present. But she were – I used to get a letter about every month from her. We just met casually up in Arbroath.
IL: Yeah. So that was lovely isn’t it?
RH: Yeah.
IL: So just coming – sorry, em so in terms of aircraft, were you just mainly working on Lancasters or were you working on all sorts of aircraft?
RH: Well, as I say, that, that last we were working on Oxfords.
IL: What was – I don’t think I know the Oxford. Was it a bomber or a fighter bomber or?
RH: It was a trainee eh plane.
IL: Oh right.
RH: And that was the Welsh boy.
IL: Ah. [emphasis] [pause] So is that you?
RH: That’s me.
IL: Are you on the left or the right?
RH: I’m the tall one.
IL: You’re the tall one. [emphasis] Ah. [pause]
RH: I eh, the eh Oxfords were the eh – what was an aircraft, when pilots had been overseas, without instrument flying, they came back and they learnt instrument flying on the Oxford with instructors.
IL: Right.
RH: And so they were taught to eh I’ve got a picture of an Oxford somewhere. Anyhow the eh [pause] I’ll show you one before you go.
IL: Oh, that’s alright. No. I’d love to take a picture actually. I’ve never heard of, I’ve never heard of the Oxfords. So it was a two seater training, you know, two seater training em?
RH: It was generally used as a trainer.
IL: Right. [long pause] [background rustling] So was it very different in the Fleet Air Arm from the RAF?
RH: It was entirely different.
IL: Right.
RH: ‘Cause it, the RAF are tradesmen. You didn’t do general duties when you had a trade.
IL: Right.
RH: Whereas in the Fleet Air Arm you were put into a port or starboard watch, so you could be on night flying all night tonight and tomorrow night you could be on airfield guard.
IL: Right. Okay.
RH: Every man that manned the ship in the eh Navy, in the eh RAF, as I say, they had HGDs and what have you. You know, you know what I mean, aircraft hands.
IL: Yeah.
RH: General duties. They used to do eh the eh –
IL: Ah right. [pause] So it’s a two-engined, at least two seater. I’ll take a picture of this if I may before I go, ‘cause, as I say, I’ll be interested to see that. So –
RH: I was working on them in the Fleet Air Arm, you see. As I say, it were called HMS Godwit, but it was a shore base, outside Ollerton in Shropshire.
IL: Did you ever have to go, did you go to sea at all?
RH: No.
IL: Right. So how long were you in the Fleet Air Arm?
RH: About eleven month.
IL: Right.
RH: ‘Cause as I say we were still at war with Japan and everybody thought end of war was VE day. But we still, you know everybody celebrates VE day and never think about VJ day.
IL: I bet you did ‘cause [chuckles] it allowed you to get out in the end.
RH: Well, you eh obviously thought when VE day came along you were on your way home.
IL: Yeah.
RH: Instead of that, a phone call, on your way down to Locking for a [unclear] conversion course into the Fleet Air Arm. Fleet Air Arm aircraft working on the airfield.
IL: So was that, so your conversion course was mainly technical rather than, you know, an introduction to a different sort of marching or?
RH: Like I say, they had Fireflies which were the equivalent to the Spitfire, and the Barracuda and stuff like that that were on the airfield that we used to run up and work on. And obviously conversion, lashing the hammock and one thing and another, you know?
IL: So did you have to sleep in a hammock?
RH: I didn’t sleep in one but you were issued with one.
IL: Right.
RH: It was part of your kit, you know? You had a toolbox and everything, you know?
IL: Which did you prefer?
RH: Well, the RAF, eh was by far the best service. Eh, I’ll tell you a funny story. One of the NCOs, they used to fly from this camp eh on flights and if anybody were going on leave, they would drop ‘em off at some airport that were near where they were going on leave and this NCO sent me to his mess to pick a case up and eh on push bike I’d got this case on handlebars, the case, and the Commander of the shore base yelled over at me, ‘Hey, you! Don’t you salute officers?’ So I says, ‘The RAF, you don’t salute officers on push bikes.’ So he said, ‘You are in the Senior Service now and you salute officers at all times.’ But if he’d have told me to open the case I’d have still been in glasshouse because the NCO was on the mess committee and there were pounds of bacon inside and mutton and everything else [laughter] and he put it down on the station while he went for a wee or something and when he went to go for his case it had gone. [emphasis] So he said to the porter ‘Have you seen a case?’ ‘It’s in lost luggage.’ And when he went to the lost luggage they said to him, ‘What was in it?’ He had to declare his bacon and butter and sugar and all that and he were brought back under arrest.
IL: Oh dear. [emphasis]
RH: And so if that commander had told me to open that case, he wouldn’t acknowledge that it was his case it would’ve been my case.
IL: It sounds like there was a lot of em [chuckles] it sort of eh, it sounds a little bit like, there was, not a rivalry, but the aircrew didn’t particularly acknowledge the ground crew and that –
RH: No, no. The aircrew, which I have every, every respect for, but don’t misunderstand me, I have nothing but admiration for the aircrew and they were only lads like what we were and the conversation used to be some of ‘em had never kissed a girl before they got killed at nineteen and there were conversations like that. But the thing is that even tradesmen like meself, other people, in the cookhouse and the M.O. section, you know, and staff they were a division between you.
IL: Yeah. Did you, did you socialise with em, you know, aircrew? Were you part of the same mess and - ?
RH: No. No. No. They had their own eh toilets. All ranks had different toilets. Sergeants had different toilets. Officers had different toilets. NCOs different toilets.
IL: Right. So in many ways you’ve probably as air, as ground crew, were you aware of the sort of losses that Bomber Command was taking in terms of men?
RH: Because like the Station CO used to announce like Berlin had been taken and Free French had got Paris over the tannoy system. So you were aware what were going on.
IL: Sorry, I was meaning more were you aware of you know the sort of the losses in aircrew that Bomber Command was em suffering at the time, you know. Were you, say aircraft losses, when aircraft were replaced did you have to service them before they were allowed back on to the bases to replace the ones that were lost?
RH: It were drilled into you. Don’t worry about the aircraft, just worry about the crew. The aircraft can be replaced, the crew can’t be replaced. And so you worked with that safety in your head all the time.
IL: Yeah. But did you ever sort of, you know, did you ever see em get to know people and then they just weren’t around or -?
RH: Well, well, what your trying to get to I think is like East Kirkby a chap comes along with the hosepipe and swills his rear turret out.
IL: Right. Okay.
RH: And you don’t get involved. You obviously have a word with him and he’s divorced from you and he’s divorced from his job. You understand what I mean don’t you?
IL: Absolutely.
RH: You don’t eh the Fleet Air Arm place where I went to, I was told I’d been to replace a flight mechanic, air mechanic, in the Fleet Air Arm, air mechanic, flight mechanic in the RAF had had his head chopped off marshalling an Oxford in.
IL: Oh gosh.
RH: And they painted the – if you look at the propellors, the air screws, on the tips there’s about four inches of indigo paint that the circumference is round. You can see the circle and all around the airfield there used to be posters with a head on ground what prop. He was marshalling, you see, you were marshalling people in in the dark with torches in mud and all the time you were running backwards your wellingtons were coming off at your heels.
IL: So, you, you had to marshal the aircraft back in, as well? Yourself?
RH: Oh yeah, yeah. It was all part of the job.
IL: Right. Was that just in the Fleet Air Arm or was that in the RAF? In both?
RH: Well, in the RAF it was procedure we went round the perimeter track to the end of the runway and it was a set out pattern, there were no need to marshal them. The Aldis lamp on the flight control tower used to signal them off with the Aldis lamp.
IL: Right. [chuckles] Okay. So did you ever feel that you were gonna fall over and sort of em come to a sticky end?
RH: Well, you just had to get on with it.
IL: Yeah.
RH: A funny thing I was on, as I say, you used to get duty every other night. I was on airfield guard at the gates at this camp, with the big iron gates there and I’m stood there and I could here a noise at back of me and I’ve got me rifle three o three Lee Enfield and five rounds were in me pocket rather than in rifle and I’m hearing this noise and hair on back of me neck were standing up and one thing and another and I were there thinking it might be a German sergeant coming to get an aircraft, you know, ‘cause you used to hear different stories about crash crews that brought – even British pilots brought a German aircraft back and that but the thing is – but when daylight come it was a cow in the next field [unclear] at the edge. [laughter]
IL: It’s a good job you didn’t shoot it.
RH: Yeah, but you know –
IL: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
RH: But you couldn’t see what were going on like, you know. And it were a hairy thing, there were two of you on guard and one’s going round on push bike into hangars to see if everything were alright and other would stand on gate and you’d switch over and with the engines cooling off it used to make a noise and it used to be quite hairy to go into an ‘angar with the engines cooling down.
IL: So how often were you doing it? How often did you have to do guard duty?
RH: Well, they just used to line you up in the Fleet Air Arm and say, ‘You six, on patrol.’ So they had a [unclear] run [unclear] for the people on the camp and you had to go, make sure you got on the bus without any fighting. [laughter] and while, you know, and they used to allocate like six were on patrol they issued you with putties [?] and webbing and you’d get down there and get all pictures taken [unclear] and then when it got to half past nine you went to bus stop to make sure that everything were alright. But then another time you’d be ‘You six, plate group.’ So you’d be in cookhouse washing plates.
IL: It sounds like a very, you had a very varied military service. Did you enjoy it?
RH: Eh, yeah, you can’t say that you didn’t enjoy it because it was an experience. But nothing mattered – all war is futile. All this that’s going on now, a hundred thousand pound rockets being fired and one thing and – it’s so futile that you’ve got a Health Service that’s short of money and their using one hundred thousand pound a missile. It’s crackers.
IL: Yes. Do you think it’s your war, your wartime experience that’s made you – how did you feel at the time? Did you feel that this was something that had to be done? Did you feel something that you supported? Was this – ?
RH: [mumbles] The thing was, you were indoctrinated that if the Germans come, they’d rape your mothers and your sisters and your [mumbles]. But up at Arbroath you’d be lined up and they’d indoctrinate you that if the Germans ever come, but it never happened because a friend of my wife’s lived in Jersey. She were in the occupation and they didn’t go into their houses and rape a woman. But it was how, it was put into you, you know? Kill or be killed when you charged forward with rifle and bayonet to [unclear] throat. Yeah. Up at Arbroath, I mean, you did five weeks on an assault course throwing hand grenades, firing rifles, firing sten guns, scaling the cliff at Arbroath. I climbed that cliff at Arbroath.
IL: Gosh.
RH: They put, the story was that at Dunkirk the RAF had to be carried off the beaches so they introduced this eight weeks course. And that’s how I came to be on the basic training course.
IL: Right.
RH: So.
IL: You remember, you remember an awful lot about your basic training. So what was the [coughs]
RH: I’ll tell you –
IL: What was the worst thing about it and what was the best thing about your service?
RH: Well you just accepted everything eh to – my brother was seven years older than I and he was in London Scottish Regiment, company sergeant major, got mentioned in dispatches, in Middle East and one thing and another, and he was like an icon. I couldn’t be the younger brother who showed weakness. So I was – you were a man. You weren’t innocent anymore. You were eighteen, you were a man.
IL: Yeah.
RH: And that’s how you accepted it. You soon lost your innocence – went to Arbroath baths, were one of the things, they marched you into baths. I was in twenty three intake, twenty two intake were in there before you and they were all there in the nude swimming about and swinging on ropes and everybody were [laughter] like this and the next week everybody else were swinging on ropes.
IL: Yeah.
RH: In the nude. You know, you just fell in line with everything. You didn’t refuse the food that were put in front of you, you went for a second if you could get away with it. Even if it might look like pig swill [laughter].
IL: What did you do then after the war?
RH: I went, I went back to the boot and shoe industry, but I left that to go into shoe retailing and I wound up being a manager of eh wi’ Timpsons shoe company. Do you know Timpsons?
IL: Yeah. Yeah, I know Timpsons.
RH: And I opened the shop in Clover Street, York and managed that for seven years, in York. I was quite a successful retail manager, you know.
IL: Right. And em [clears throat] do you get, have you been involved with things like the associations for the em you know, the RAF and Bomber Command and - ?
RH: After the war they had the eh Air Training Corps Old Boys Comrades and one thing and another. But it all tapered away as I got married and had families and one thing and another. Just disappeared. I used to see one or two of the people that were on photograph. One of ‘em became an undertaker supplier, you know. He had a job with this supplies embalming fluid and coffins and that, that he used to get from Whitby and that, you know, talking to ‘im. But eh you eh that’s the chap who used to go with me for eggs.
IL: Oh right.
RH: Yeah.
IL: [chuckles] Sounds like a, sounds like a good business. Em, was he, em sorry, em I’ve forgotten what I was going to say. Em [pause] You were saying about funny stories with firecrackers.
RH: Oh, at Skendleby it was a very strict camp. When you went out of camp they gave you a number besides your service number last three, two o nine, they gave you like fifty seven and before you could get in, the guardroom was inside, you’d have to shout, ‘Two o nine, fifty seven’ and barbed wire were six foot high all the way around camp and the outcome of it was, it was eh one of these radar, with the tower that was one hundred and five feet high with a [unclear] and eh, there was an American technician captain and somebody decided that we’d go out, ten of us, with this captain and if we could get into camp, just get into the camp [emphasis] we’d conquered it. So we eh, we went to the pictures at Alford. We went to a place called Ulceby. I don’t know whether you know Ulceby?
IL: Mm.
RH: Eh, the WAAF were there for the camp. Eh we went in there dancing while one o’clock in the morning with the WAAFs. And on the first day we didn’t do anything but mope around and on second day we had forty eight hours to get back into camp and we left it till about an hour beforehand, and I had a pair of these eh leather gloves with the steel strips across and I climbed up the barbed wire that were six foot high and fell over the other side but we had what we called firecrackers and you had a strip of ignition tape around your arm and what you did, it was like a giant firework, and you struck the firecracker on it and it acted like a, an ‘and grenade and it didn’t explode like an ‘and – it exploded – anyhow the CO’s bedroom, the window was open, and I run fast after we were in there [chuckles]. I, I bet he jumped through [unclear] [chuckles] [laughter]
IL: So were you in trouble for that?
RH: No, no, nobody knew who did it.
IL: Oh.
RH: But next few days we were there putting barbed wire rolls on top of rolls, you know.
IL: Absolutely. Absolutely.
RH: So. I’ll tell you another. I went to Alford for the first time by meself and I went to this café and I saw on menu, Welsh rarebit and I thought ‘Oh that’ll be good. I’ll have a nice hot dinner,’ and it were cheese on toast when I got it. But the innocent boy of eighteen years [laughter] thought he were going to get a hot dinner. And in Alford they used to allow us to go in and get a bath in the brewery because there were only cold water. You used to get the water for the camp at Skendleby from Willoughby. There were a well at Willoughby. We had a petrol pump that used to get the water, suck the water up, and put it into the galvanised containers over the showers. So there were no hot water. So that’s –
IL: So you used to get a bath in the brewery?
RH: Yeah.
IL: So how did the brewery have hot water?
RH: Steam.
IL: Oh right. From?
RH: From the vats.
IL: Oh right. [emphasis] It must have smelt nice? [laughter]
RH: But you know what I mean, you know what I mean? Don’t you? There were a lot of kind things that –
IL: Oh absolutely. Absolutely.
RH: Nothing but kindness shown towards us. You know what I mean, don’t you?
IL: Mm. So did you [clears throat] did you identify with – you obviously, you know, have been involved, and have been invited to, you know, the things with the Bomber Command Centre. Do you identify yourself as a boy, as somebody who was part of Bomber Command? Is that, is it something that which you’re proud of? Is it something that you, you know, it’s just part of your life, or?
RH: I, I’m proud that they’ve started this. I said it to Peter in a letter, that I was glad that somebody’s done something in appreciation. It doesn’t just go into oblivion because of what happened. Nobody knows what happened. And also people what I’ve spoken to, younger people about fifty and sixty say, ‘Oh we couldn’t have done that. We couldn’t have done that.’ And have no concept of what you did. It’s only by these things what’s happening now that they’ve got a concept of it.
IL: Mm.
RH: And they see the Bomber, eh, Dambusters, eh on the television and they see Guy Gibson and all that sort of thing eh and they see it portrayed as though it was some form of Brylcreem boy picture or something like that and they don’t realise that that fifty seven thousand went, you know,
IL: Oh absolutely
RH: when they were only boys, you know what I mean don’t you?
IL: Oh absolutely.
RH: And it, the worst crime that ever happened, they never recognised Bomber, Bomber Command as a medal, insofar as they were only copper or nickel and they didn’t cost fivepence a piece in old money and it wouldn’t have cost them anything and I often wonder ‘Did the German aircrew and ground staff get a medal?’
IL: Eh, yeah em, I can’t answer that I have to say.
RH: It’s that something that I’ve always wondered, I’m not, they were only doing a job like we were doing.
IL: Yep.
RH: And at the end of the war they were always concern about Dresden and one thing and another but nobody mentioned Coventry and Hull and different places, and London, and different places. We could all have been killed. But at the end of the war they put a statue up to Bomber Harris and somebody painted it in red. Blood on his hands. I don’t know whether you know.
IL: Yeah. I, I, well I’ve seen pictures of it. I’ve seen pictures of it being defaced.
RH: Yeah. Well, but I think reading between the lines, he went out to live in South Africa or somewhere like that.
IL: Yes, well he was born in – He was Zimbabwean.
RH: Yes, but he went back there in more or less disgrace, with blood on his hands.
IL: Yeah.
RH: And he were only carrying out orders at the end. Every bloomin’ raid that they went on –
IL: Did, did you say that he came to a party?
RH: No, he didn’t come to the party.
IL: Right.
RH: He sent a message, that told of appreciation of the work, the hard work that 5 Group Servicing Section had done that they’d throw a party for us. And that’s the only time we were all collectively together. But that was an appreciation, for the party. But it was signed by Bomber Command.
IL: Oh right. Okay. But you were personally thanked by the Wing Commander?
RH: 5 Group Chief Engineering Officer. It’s there.
IL: Oh absolutely. I’ve seen, I’ve seen, I’ve seen it.
RH: I can’t write that now in green ink [?] [chuckles] It were relevant at the time when we did it.
IL: Of course. Of course. Well it’s a huge thing, isn’t it really? You know, particularly in that, I think it’s important to have recognition.
RH: You see eh, I’ll just [mumbles].
IL: What are you looking for?
RH: I’m looking –
IL: Oh for your glasses [chuckles]
RH: My glasses. [background rustling]
IL: Aah! [pause] I’ll take, I’ll take pictures of these if that’s okay?
RH: Yes, certainly.
IL: Which we can em, which we can use.
RH: Yeah. Do you know what this is? ‘East Kirkby Monday eighth of the first forty five heavy snow. Nineteenth of the first it was very cold. Twenty second of the first polishing [?] in the snow.’ Nobody knows about those things.
IL: Oh no. You worked incredibly hard.
RH: There were nowhere to hide in Lincolnshire.
IL: No. It’s a very em, it’s a bit barren. Oh and is that you? [emphasis]
RH: Yeah. There were nowhere to hide from the wind. It were all flat land.
IL: Oh absolutely. It blows straight across.
RH: And that’s my training –
IL: And that’s your, that’s your training?
RH: Yeah.
IL: And so where are you?
RH: In the centre somewhere. Can you see?
IL: Aah. They all look terribly serious. Is there anything else you’d want to tell me?
RH: Only that the eh, as I say, the different aircraft, there were Stirlings, everybody talks about the Lancaster, but at Wigsley they had Stirlings.
IL: Right.
RH: You know, we worked on them.
IL: Were they, but was the Lancaster your favourite aircraft to work on? Did you get to, you know, know your engines? Did you get to sort of be able to know that the engine was right by the sound of it?
RH: It, it were music.
IL: Yeah.
RH: You can talk about operas and symphonies and anything but if you stood at the side of the perimeter track waiting for it to take off at the end of the runway then when you see it sweep up into the sky with the engines running, it were magical. I’m not being effeminate or anything like that, but just so admiration of that piece of machinery and with a bomb load on being lifted off the runway and taking off into the air, what a feat of engineering.
IL: Oh, absolutely fantastic. Right, I am going to stop there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert Holman
Creator
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Ian Locker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHolmanR180420, PHolmanR1801
Format
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00:50:18 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Holman was born and brought up in Leeds. He joined the Air Training Corps, enjoying camps at RAF Pocklington. On leaving school at fourteen he went to work in the shoe industry. He then joined the Royal Air Force as an engineer on ground crew. After working on an aircraft the crew would occasionally take Robert up to give them confidence that he had done a good job. He was finally posted to Lincolnshire with Bomber Command. He recalled that there would be eight or ten engineers working on a major service, which could take two or three days. He worked on Lancasters, Oxfords and Stirlings; the latter being for training purposes.
After the war Robert went back into the shoe industry as a retailer and finally opened a shop for Timpsons. He became a member of the Air Training Corps Old Boys Comrades.
Robert enjoyed his time in the services and remembered incidents, including when he was on guard duty at the gates; having three weeks off after having his appendix out whilst working at RAF Scampton, and getting a lift in the back of a wagon conveying dead sheep.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Tricia Marshall
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
5 Group
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
military service conditions
Oxford
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Pocklington
RAF Scampton
RAF Syerston
Stirling
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/855/10860/PHanksJ1602.1.jpg
ca4d3cdabbea75088e11175107102fce
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/855/10860/AHanksJ160622.2.mp3
dca6ce82ecad9a869f7eadfd2dd1907c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hanks, John
J Hanks
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Hanks (b.1922, 1453357 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer and was posted to the Shetlands.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hanks, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
IB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive. The interviewer is Ian Boole and the interviewee is Mr John Hanks. Thank you for telling your story today John. Also present is Rita May, Mr Hanks’ daughter. And the interview is taking place at Mr. Hanks’s home in Potterhanworth in Lincoln on the 22nd of June 2016, at approximately 2.20 pm. Over to you, John.
JH: Yeah. Well, I can also answer any questions you like to ask me. Be the best way. Or do you want me to go through the whole?
IB: If you’d like to start with you preservice and your early days.
JH: Yeah, what before this.
IB: before the war.
JH: Well just, yeah, my father, biological father is not here now, he served in the First World War in India. I was born in 1922, poor family obviously and grew up in Battersea, London, left school at fourteen, ordinary elementary school, went to work, 1936 I started work, I was fourteen then and time presses on, 1937 comes round, ‘38 and the signs of war, Mr, what’s his name, went across with a piece of paper?
IB: Chamberlain.
JH: Chamberlain, Mr Chamberlain comes up with a bit of paper, peace in our time, [unclear] when you think about it, we weren’t ready, so 1938 passes, breathe a sigh of relief, thank God for that, no war but 1939, what happens? It happens, Hitler walks into Czechoslovakia we start war, so [unclear] onwards I’m still living in Battersea, London, my mates join the LDV, which became the Home Guard, we guarded bridges, Battersea bridges, things like that and then we had the Blitz start, but I lived through the whole of the Blitz, from beginning to the very end, night after night after night, it’s unbelievable, youngsters said, I can’t imagine what it would be like to live and try to sleep under noise of aircraft, guns and bombs coming down, unbelievable, I can hardly believe it myself today now but we survived. 1941 I decide I’ve got to go up, I’m gonna be called up anyway and I want to go into the Royal Air Force, I like mechanical, I liked things like that so I joined the Royal Air Force, go down to Croydon, there are offices there to join up, asked a few questions, no, I‘m not very good at maths, and when the officer asked me how often, add a half and a third together, I just [unclear] together [unclear] so he said to me, well, he said, I’ll put you down for ACAGD but I didn’t know what it was, aircraft and general duty so that’s it and waited to get called up, sent to [unclear], sent down to Penrhos in South Wales, got down there, kitted out, you know, [unclear] then sent over to Weston-super-Mare and that’s where we started the basic training, marching up and down, sleuthing to the front and the right and all this, anyway, put on guard at the, you know, new pier down there, given a rifle, no ammunition, no, might have hurt somebody [laughs] but we got a rifle anyway and we put down there we were told, you know [unclear] anybody, it goes there and that you know, anyway and from there passed out the end of the training, sent up to Edinburgh, which was [unclear] at the time, I forget what squadron was there, I think it was, I’m not sure, a fighter squadrons up there because the Germans were coming in sometimes up the, you know, the, I forget the river now, what’s the river, where Edinburgh runs, I forget the river now, anyway, they would come up there and attack, you know, go back and I’m put on, looking after the air crew, cause some of the air crew, French pilots learning to take off and landing on aircraft carriers, you know, and on air the best [unclear] in case is a crash and the pilots burning so it [unclear] and it worries me and I’ll tell this I was and I don’t think I gotta tell you and [unclear] and so he says, oh, so [unclear] to get me posted so I get posted up to Shetland islands where I am up at Sullom Voe on PBY Catalinas which is American aircraft and that’s where we, you know, doing their work from there, and I get interested in armoury so I’m put in the armoury section, helping armourers doing fiddly jobs and interesting, so I decide I’ll remuster, see if I can remuster to armourer I [unclear] for, you know, remustering, I’m accepted and I sit down to create a new letter for on an armourer’s course and there I was down there knowing all about every armour under the sun, weapons, all kind of weapons, hydraulics, turrets, the lot, I passed out as AC1 so I’ve covered AC2 now to AC1, that’s not bad, and I was posted to Swinderby in Lincoln here with 1660, HBCU which is heavy Bomber Command unit, so I’m posted there, what we’re doing there, we are training crews in [unclear] to work in Lancasters or Halifaxes so if we got Halifaxes there and we got, so when I get there we got Halifaxes, we only got the Lancasters so on there armourer I’m shown me jobs, another armourer tells me what I have to do each day so I learn that, so every day I will have to go out in the morning to make aircraft dedicated to me and I will have to check every armour, that’s the ammunition, the 303 Brownings, the turret system, the hydraulics, the power technics, everything, any can [unclear], the carrier, the bomb carriers, the lot, so I have to do that every day and then I’d have to sign form seven hundred, I will sign a form seven hundred in my trade, all the other trades are, you know, you will be a mechanic, you would have to sign, electrician they also signed it, the last one to sign would be the captain the aircraft, he is satisfied, he signed it, now that aircraft is fit to fly, that’s the last what I would do and that would be, and that would have left us there to the next job, next aircraft or in between flights inspection just to check everything is going ok and that’s what I would have to do as an armourer and then of course, I think, after being there for a while, they sent me down to Waddington here and I got a feeling, they at the beginning of the war, they were trying to, they were using armourers as air gunners because you had no better gunner than an armourer who knew all about, if a [unclear] dropped a gun, you knew how to clear it, an ordinary gunner who wasn’t an armourer might be, what I do now? So I think it was trying to do the same with me, when we went to Waddington, they would put us on a, into a sort of an imitation turret where you would fire at imitation aircraft flying but that’s all that and there and it came up when I was sent to East Kirkby, where I was attached to 57 and 630 Squadron and there we were bombing up, you know, proper because Swinderby, the only bombing I have done at Swinderby was putting practice bombs up, dynamite bombing would be a bomb which would just be smoked when it came up, if you were bombing at night, it would be a flash bomb, a flash grenade and eight pounders it was all putting up but when we went to, when I went to East Kirkby, we was bombing up for real, we was bombing up on the cookies, that’s the four thousand pounder, o might be an eight thousand pounder and I haven’t put up a twelve thousand pounder, I think I put up an eight thousand pounder but I most certainly put up plenty of four thousand pounders, they called them cookie, and of course you put a cookie up and you put rows of five hundred or two fifty pound bombs except at one day we was putting up a cookie and canisters of incendiaries [unclear] and the incendiaries is a big can, inside the can is about, I think about fourteen incendiaries, they all fit in place, they are octagonal put together but each one keeps the [unclear] out, you in and then there’s a cross by that comes across now when they drop them, the bomb aimer selects the drop bars, the drop bars fall away and all the incendiaries come out, when they go out, they’re alive and I’m up in front position and I, we put these canisters up and I’m up at the very top so I’ve got to come all down to the bomb armourer below, ok, is on? Wind it up, very slowly up cause the can of incendiaries to top position, now it’s clear so I released but the thing was the cable wasn’t in and all canisters went straight away down, right across the bomb trolley and bent it all up but not one drop bar fell out so luckily saved the situation [laughs] but I sweat a bit [laughs] but that’s about the only incident I can ever remember that happened to me. It’s, we use to have a bit of a fun when we used to have to, when we bombed up it seemed to be, the bombs would come up, fill up with petrol or whatever, the bomb, we would come out, bomber, I guarantee you every time we finished, change loads, change loads and he comes down, petrol [unclear] comes up, for several reasons I can understand is the enemy couldn’t work out the distance when we were going or the amount of fuel it was carrying, if the, you know, found out, he was put in so many gallons of fuel in, it would give some idea of where that plane, they would gonna go. And I think that was the idea, why they changed loads the last minute to, you know, and that’s what we but coming back to Swinderby we were there, they were training, training crew, they were trained in take-off and landing so circuits and bumps we called them, diversions, now the diversions as far as I know, HBCU, 166 HBCU would form up with other HBCU [unclear], 54 and they would form up in a big [unclear] of aircraft and they would take-off and away, the point was the enemy would get the guess, they’re gonna make a raid over there but they won’t, they might as well go over there, so we were diverted, it was diversion so once again, the enemy was getting [unclear] and that’s part of the job of 1660, so that’s about all as much I can tell you of 1660 anyway [laughs] but is there anything else, you know, can I tell you?
IB: How was your relationship with the aircrew, you come in contact with them [unclear]?
JH: Yeah, very, well, sometimes I’d have to go out there and I want, I can’t check the turrets cause hydraulic system, I can’t check the turrets without the engines running, the engines are gonna work to get the pumps pushing the fuel for you through, you know, so the hydraulics worked, then once I run the engines, certain engines for the front or rear or mid upper, run the engines up and get in, and check them, make sure the guns were elevate and depressed and the turret would go around cause we are using a Frazer-Nash turret, it was the best turret I’ve ever come across, two grips like this, you go like that and when you are on the turret, [unclear] you know, it was a very good turret, but all oil, oil you know, and that was the best, the other turret I worked on was the in the Halifax, I forget the name of it but it had a central control like this and it wasn’t very good, you know, wasn’t so good as, you know, it was so easy and but yes alright, I get the aircrew to run the engine, they were all good lads, we were all lads together, you know, there was no quibbling, I mean, I’ve been down in Lincoln and one of the officers sitting in the bus, pat me on the back, oh God, he said, now the drink we get in town, it was just like that, you know, and I’m a young lad, he’s an officer and he’s talking to me, I’m so [unclear] [laughs] but yeah, the comradeship, that was [unclear] about the services and the army the same I suppose, but in the Royal Air Force the comradeship was unbelievable, I mean, I went down to Metheringham in, I think it was number 9 Squadron, used to be down, I’m not sure now and al goes in it and the curator in this museum he’s in it and he says, you know, this be about, he showed this bit about a DVD about armourer, you know, yeah, I’m talking to him so, you know, as I said, you know, what rank were you? Oh yeah, I thought, he would say, you know, I was sergeant, flight sergeant, oh, he says, I was group captain, I said, you know what? I said, it’s the first time in my life without standing attention to salute you, of course, he says, sir [laughs] I said, I was in the [unclear], he said, you do a good job, he said, it was stranger when he said that, you know, and he said, group captain, [unclear] [laughs], you know yourself, ay? Group captain, oh dear, oh dear, that’s what I liked about the Christmas time, during New Years’ time down at Swinderby, in the Christmas time all yerks, we all sit down and the officers are coming round, I suppose you know it, and they serve you and you know, and he’s great, you can chat but you know it’s still officers and I remember on New Year’s Eve, be [unclear] on the naffy, we were all in there and the CO comes in as well and the adjutant and all you know, all the big nobs, they are all joining hands, you know, the Auld Lang Syne, is good fun, yeah, is all, great it was, anyway so we all go back to the bed that night, yeah, so we are getting in bed and while we are in bed, we are asleep, and the signal starts, action stations parachute, action stations parachute, bloody hell, out of bed! We had to get out of bed quick, dressed, downstairs, grab a rifle, get outside, on parade, get in the truck, taken out to the airfield, they take us out the airfield, good God, got standing, gotta guard the aircraft I’m standing there, get captured by the army, it’s a trial, the army come in they captured us [laughs] but it was just to show you right if it was, you know, but the army took part in it and it was good though but at the time you didn’t know when you heard this tannoy system going action stations parachute, oh dear, oh dear, [unclear] but oh yeah, lovely, we’ll [unclear]
IB: When you arming the aircraft, what sort of conditions were you working under, as regards thinks the weather conditions and the time that you had to turn round [unclear] to get [unclear] and back?
JH: Well, you see, I spent a lot of time at Swinderby, which was a training centre really for aircrew, so, it wasn’t as operational, so we, we weren’t supposed tied down so much, I mean, if the gunner ops is got to be, they happened really time, no doubt, [unclear] go out every morning doing a DI and every tradesman go and do their part of the job, it sometimes it was a job to get the aircrew to run the engines for you, it was just one of those things but if the weather is bad, course you still had to do it, I mean, I had to go in aircraft and it’s really freezing cold and snowing and you had to get onto the tail end of the aircraft because the RSJ on the rear turret has got a leak, I had to go out and check it, of course that’s not my job so I report it to the fitters, you know, so the fitters come and do their job but you know, you still have to go out and do your job not matter what the weather was like, you know, even [unclear], you know, it just had to be done, clear, might have to go out and clear the [unclear], clear the snow off them another thing, get snowed up you gotta clear the snow off cause, I mean, even flying at night just the same, you were still training at night, day or night, flying, I mean, some of the nights I will be awake all night flying duties, I‘ll have to go out at six and go out there, wait there, wait till the aircraft took off, then I could lay down fall and get some sleep till they come back or come back for a leak or something, you know, which we had to go out and check and let’s see, I all day, the aircrew, luckily night flying duties I’d go to the mess and get a good supper you know normally you wouldn’t laugh but I mean when we had an ordinary and supper at the mess I mean you wouldn’t get eggs and things like that but if it is a night flying duty the crew, they would get eggs, we get them as well, yeah, luckily. Weren’t supposed to be, go them, anyway. What else got there then?
IB: We talked a little bit earlier of how your thoughts and feelings about the fact that you were loading bombs onto an airplane so that it could potentially go and kill people
JH: Yeah.
IB: What were your thoughts and feelings about that at the time?
JH: At the time, I thought it was a good thing, I thought, well, we are doing a good job here, you know, East Kirkby, we are putting the bombs up, they are gonna go out, get killed, thousands of Germans, good, [unclear] dead Germans, good, I can’t feel that way now, I just can’t, if I people that see Germany now, same age as me, in the war just the same, [unclear] and we are all good friends, you know, and that’s how it should have been, how it should be, as I said, I went to the museum for the Holocaust, yeah, I’ve been to Norwich, Norfolk, no sorry it’s, Nottinghamshire, I went there talking to the chap who was lecturing that, I said, people don’t seem to remember that we were fighting the Nazis, not fighting the German people, we weren’t fighting the German people although that’s what he was, it was getting over to so when I was young during the war I we are fighting the German people but we weren’t, we were fighting the Nazi regime not the people and that’s, that is what I feel now but then it was good, I think, we’re killing them, let’s kill some more, kill them all, is nothing bad like the dead Germans yeah, so, you know, to look at life like that, but I was nineteen, twenty then but I’m ninety four now, I can’t feel that way, you know, as I say, you to think that I put a bomb up to think now that bomb I put up there young children, babies maybe, completely innocent, I’ve helped to kill them, I’ve helped, not killed, I’ve helped to do it, the aircrew not their fault, not even the aircrew, they were ordered to do it, they’ve got to do it, they’ve got no choice about it, I’ve got no choice about it, it’s the war, I’ve been told I’ve got to do it this thing, you see, during the war years when you was in the service, I was in the Royal Air Force, yeah, and the army, navy, your life is not yours anymore, it belongs to the, the country that you live in, it’s your life belongs to them now, not you, you’re just a tool, you’re absolute tool, someone pulling the strings, [unclear] I’m told, that’s terrible, four years terrible, God, go ley, [unclear] I don’t know,
IB: At the end of your time in the RAF, were you demobbed at the end of the war, you stayed [unclear]?
JH: No, no, I didn’t want to stay, no, I actually I was sent to Birmingham after I was, you know, that’s it, don’t want armourers no more so I sent down to [unclear] in London they sent me back up to Birmingham, when I get there I’m told, go to the police and I, [unclear] and I went to the police so I went to the police, can you see, yeah, ok.
US: He’s coming.
JH: Yeah, I went to the police and of course
[tape stopped]
JH: My demobbed number was number 42 and I was up at Birmingham at the time and as a recruiting officer, I wasn’t officer but that’s why they called a recruiting officer, you know, the people want to come in and join the Royal Air Force I would interview them, ask them questions, if they failed, turned down the army, and you picked the best Royal Air Force you sent them in to see the officer and why, my number’s coming up next, I’ll be out, when the DROs come up next month be deferred, put back and I was dying to get out and I went in the office and I told him, I feel like deserting, he said, get me victory House in London, get me, he did mention a name at [unclear], I said I wasn’t quite sure of that so I had to ring up Victory House, you got to find Victory House, they called me back in the office, get your kit packed tonight, he said, I got you posted down to [unclear] so I got posted to Hall line Acton where I was, you know, recruiting now, it was great, was [unclear] every night lovely so it was like being home but I finally got demobbed from there but then, can I go to bed Rita? But it was there, when I was at Swinderby and used to come down to Lincoln, we got into the castle, look at the old Victorian prison they opened, we would go in there, so me and my mate goes in there, there’s two girls in there, we chat [unclear] very young men, naturally, talked to them and this girl spoke to them, her name is Rita so I went [unclear] took me to her so can I see you again? She says, yeah, so we arranged to see her again and what I should do when I was back in camp, I’ll bring her up cause she can I speak to Ms. Rita Chapman, please? Yeah, so she put me through, she come on phone and I am off duty, can I come down and see you? Yeah, come then, so go down there and we used to come down and we had a good friendship, it was platonic, it was a true, honest friendship, nothing more and nothing less and we used to go out cycling in the country [unclear] we enjoyed that companionship and eventually I got posted away so back down to [unclear] from there I got demobbed and when I was, I [unclear] uniform so I took it out, put this photo in a letter, wrote on it to this girl Rita Chapman, put the letter, this is my photograph and I want you to look after it for me, so I posted it to her, war’s over, I’m out. Fifty seven years later, I might be, my daughter’s mother died, Gladys she died, and we used to go out and [unclear] and I come up once for me and I went down to the Brayford Pool in a pub, William the Fourth, and talked to the lady who was chef here, she was clearing when I was outside, I said, you’re wasted, you’re alright, I said, used to be with the Royal Air Force during and told about this young girl I met Rita Chapman, she said, what a lovely story, she said, why not tell it to the Lincolnshire Echo and read it, she said, promise you, I promise so I went over there, I saw this report apparently he is well known, [unclear] and I forget his name now, his real name, name Pete something, and I went to see him, I said, I don’t know why and that’s it so that weekend I go back home and on a Monday on that weekend when I get back home, the phone rings, I picked the phone up, so a voice said, is that Mr. Hanks? I said, yes, speaking. So she said, this is Rita and I know it wasn’t my daughter Rita, is there any other Rita I knew? And it was this Rita Chapman and we met then after that, I came up here and we were married in 2010, won’t we? We got married. And I’ve been here ever since but I lost her unfortunately in ’13, bloody cancer again, but we had ten, eleven years, wonderful, and you see, my daughter’s name when I got back home we had a son, my son was born in 1947 and he was named Raymond, his photo’s up there now, he’s dead now, anyway and we had a girl, and my wife said, what shall we name her, baby girl? So I thought, I said, name her Rita and I say, let’s call her Rita, don’t ask me why and I said the reason I gave her the name is I didn’t know of anybody else so honest and true and trustworthy as this girl Rita Chapman because there nothing ever went wrong between us, nothing, she was a good companion and I must admit she was a good companion to me cause when you’re living with blokes all the time it’s nice to speak to a female and that’s how I named my daughter Rita, that’s how she got her name when she rang up she says it’s Rita [unclear] and that’s the part, you know, great but you know I thought she did listen and she said, cause everywhere we went, Rita would tell everybody, I think Rita in fact she was on the TV, they took us down to the studio, I forget where it is now, it was on the news, and they interviewed us down on the TV so Lincoln, all Lincoln knows about, I think so, must do, she tells, everybody she met, she would tell her this story about how we met no matter who it was she’d tell, now I’m telling you, she would have told you right [laughs].
IB: Tells us a little bit about your life after demob, and how they treated you and how you [unclear] about it?
JH: I was demobbed, at the time I was pleased to get out, I was pleased to get out, naturally. I went back to work in me old job, I was a metal polisher, and I was polishing for chrome plating, you know anything to do with chrome plating, if it was a bumper bar for a car or car handles, anything that was chrome plated, we were polishing the metal ready for plating and I for quite a number of years dropped and changed but in them days I could pack up me job and say to the manager, I’m going at twelve o’clock, it’s elven o’clock, hour, one hour, [unclear] walked down the road, go and get another job, not like it’s today, I mean, I ‘ve been in and out jobs, packing up here, go down the road, go in there, go somewhere else, all the time, all the time, [unclear] I mean, once I was working away, I just come back and it was the worst ever, you come back, you gotta go to work, and this chap, [unclear] at me, he said, oh, you’ll have to work till half past seven tonight, so I’m not, said, you’re after, I’m not, so I’m packing up, that was it, so I packed up, I wouldn’t gonna work, I was, I must admit, I wasn’t workaholic, I worked till six o’clock, that’s it, I finished, I’d do no more, enough, so anybody says me you work, you know, I’m not, you don’t tell me how I’m gonna work, I tell you when I’m gonna work, so that’s it, I worked till six o’clock and I finished, go home then, that’s alright, I’ve always been, and of course later on in the years, me and my mate we joined together, we made a little company of our own, we were self-employed and we were known as T&H metal polishers in London and we’d done quite well, we done good work and we done very well, earning good money, no problem at all, never had any problems, until time came to retire I said, I’ve had enough so I pack and I gave it up, I could have gone on big business, but I wasn’t workaholic, I’m afraid not, our life is more important than money, you know, you got to have money to live earn enough but that’s it, then enjoy yourself, enjoy life, not there forever, but I think life treated me pretty well, actually I mean, I’ve been quite satisfied by my life, I mean, I did have cancer in the bowels, bowel cancer once but it was in the colon so I was did chop it out and that was it but I mean , I was lucky [unclear] I’ve met, I felt I’ve been lucky all me life, I can’t think of any bad luck, only, sometimes things are going wrong, then they go right, no stay wrong, gone right, I fell as if I’ve been very, very, very lucky, I went through the whole war and never even cut me finger, so I mean, look at some of the things that some people have to go through, illnesses, you know, or [unclear] or trouble galore. But never, I can’t grable, satisfies with me life, don’t ask for any more, health, happiness, nothing more, nothing less.
IB: What do you feel is now about your service days and?
JH: Looking back over the years of me service days, I enjoyed me service days not the reason for me service days, the war, not that but being in service, I, the service days were enjoyable, comradeship, friendship, you know, you couldn’t ask for more, you live in a barrack room full of fellows, you don’t argue, you know, you talk to each other, you know, you grab in the naffy your cup of tea, buy a beer or go out with them and, you know, you just, that was a part, that was a good part about, I enjoyed that part very much, that was the sad part when you had to leave it behind, really, it was only after I got out, that I began to feel sorry, I was dying to get out but then when the time came, I came out [unclear] I could have gone, could have stayed on obviously but I didn’t want to stay on, they were offering it to you, you could stay on to give you so much money, I forget what it was now, but I didn’t want to stay on but then after I got back, you know, got back into reality, you are working for a living, and you had to work hard, all my life as a polisher, I’ve always been, you got a price for a job, you got a job, you gotta polish it, you get payed for the price that job, you gotta use, you know, your brain, you gotta find the quickest way to do the job, and do it the right way, quality, it’s quality first, obviously, but you gotta give them the quality and you gotta give it to them as quick as you possibly can, the quicker you do it, the more money you can earn. So that was peaceful, I’ve done it all my life peaceful and that was tight, sometimes you get a job for polishing and it was tricky, very tricky and some of the jobs could have been dangerous, trying to polish it where you could get caught up in the tool and you cut your fingers off or God knows what, you know, that sometimes could be a bit dodgy, sometimes you get a job really easy when I first went back to it after the war, I went down, back to me old job, and we was doing [unclear] lighters at the time, and we was in them days when I was gonna back to work and I’d [unclear] the RAF and said to the people in the recruiting centre, I earned eight pound a week, eight pound, they laughed at me, eight pound a week cause in them days I a lot of money, I did a lot of money, but when I started work back on Ronson lighters twenty one pound a week for a while but then of course Ronson decided, you know, I’m not gonna pay this much money so my governors said, we not gonna pay that money to get the [unclear] down and so me and me mates said, right that’s it, we’re gonna go on strike, so we did, we didn’t go to work, what happened? We got sacked [laughs]. Got sacked, but there you are, there it goes, I mean, we should have said, well, yeah, I mean, if a good wage was eight pounds a week, to earn twenty one is a bad [laughs] yeah I excepted it but we didn’t wanna except that so he said, right, you’re out, that was it, out, and then, in them days they could do that, you know, they wanted to sack you, they could sack you, they can’t now, can’t they? Isn’t it? Some good jobs. [file missing]
IB: Ok.
JH: When do we start off again?
IB: Any thoughts about the things that you saw, any experience that has left? Lasting impression?
JH: Yes, Swinderby, I forget how many crashes I saw there actually but there was one I remember that came down just off the airfield in front of a cottage and I had to go out there after the rest of the had cleared the stuff away to get and check on the armour equipment that need to come out and inside the aircraft, what were the remains of the aircraft, there seemed to be the scalp of the pilot hanging on the control column, you know, his scalp and shoes on the ground that had come off the aircrew’s feet obviously so they must have taken the bodies away and left the bits and pieces, I checked things out that you know and [unclear] alright to do except I had to go to the burial of at least one of the crew, I’m not sure, but I had to go to a burial at a church at and, I forget where it is now, just outside of Swinderby, Bassingham or Disney, I’m not sure, there’s a church there, and I’ve the escort, part of the escort the coffin in for burial in the ground, it’s still up there and very often I go up there and I do walk up and down and pay my respects, you know, read and make sure that the there’s some there that occurred after I’d gone or before I arrived but there are some there that when I was there so will be the crew that I probably escorted into the burial ground and I do often go up there and pay my respects, you know, I think it’s best, you know nice to do, I think it’s nice, it takes you back in the years and you can relive the old times and you think about the old times and the comradeship, that’s the point the comradeship, you see, and it was, actually is a photo up there, up the top there, on the left is, one of the, can you see it? Is one up there which the guard room and next is [unclear] down the tab and the one on the right hand side is the SHQ headquarters at Swinderby, they’re not there now, they’ve taken away, it’s all gone now but that’s, but it’s nice, to, I often drive up there, just for the sake of reliving memories, go up there and I told you about and I stood there, I parked the car, sitting there and in the park on the runway and I the airfield would be the dispersal and this is where I’m sitting in the car and I remember bringing the aircrew, the aircraft through here, cross this road [alarm goes off]
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Hanks
Creator
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Ian Boole
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AHanksJ160622, PHanksJ1602
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Pending review
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00:42:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Shetland
Description
An account of the resource
John Hanks joined the RAF and served as an armourer. Describes his role and his duties. Tells of his posting at Swinderby and East Kirkby. Gives a graphic and vivid account of an aircraft crash at RAF Swinderby. Describes comradeship between ground crew and aircrew. Expresses personal views regarding the bombing campaign.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
1660 HCU
bombing up
Catalina
crash
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/865/10825/AGillRA-JT170930.2.mp3
ee2bdb54a700a6de722a519acf341d1e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hazeldene, Peter
Peter Vere Hazeldene
P V Hazeldene
Description
An account of the resource
19 items. An oral history interview with Rachel and John Gill about their father, Peter Hazeldene DFC (b. 1922, 553414 Royal Air Force) and 16 other items including log book, memoirs, medals and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 106 and 57 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Rachel and John Gill and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hazeldene, PV
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 30th of September 2017. I’m in North Hykeham with Terry and Rachel Gill and we’re going to talk about Pete Hazeldene, Hazeldene, who was Rachel’s father, and his experiences in the RAF. So we start talking to Rachel. What do you know about dad in his earliest life?
RG: Well, I know he was the eldest child of seven and he was born in Barry Island. Dad always loved the sea and I think this is, was because he was born near the sea. He had diphtheria as a very small boy and was in an Isolation Hospital. He was a member of the choir, sang in the choir and an altar boy. And then they moved to, to Cardiff. Dad enjoyed life. He loved camp. He loved to go and take, with his friend take his tent to the bottom of Caerphilly Hill. And —
CB: What did his father do?
RG: Oh, Grandpa was in a drawing office in Cardiff. Grandma stayed at home with all these children. Dad left school around about fifteen and was an errand boy for a jewellers but his love of the Air Force started when he saw a poster in a window offering to see the world from a different angle. And that’s when dad decided he would join the Air Force. Grandpa was against it because he wanted him to join the Welsh Regiment but dad was adamant and away he went. I’m not quite sure if grandpa signed his forms or whether it was Grandma. Dad joined the Air Force and came as a boy entrant to Cranwell.
CB: So this is 1939. Beginning of ’39.
RG: Yes.
CB: Although he’d showed his interest in 1938.
RG: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
RG: He was, he did the training in Cranwell as a, what did he do? Wireless operator.
CB: Just stop there a mo.
RG: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Doing technical training.
TG: Technical training.
RG: Oh right. Yeah.
TG: With a —
[recording paused]
CB: So, tell us a bit more about him leaving home.
RG: It was quite an adventure coming to Lincolnshire for dad because it was his very first time he’d left home and his very first time he’d actually been out of Cardiff. Out of Wales. And he got here as a sixteen year old and he never left Lincolnshire all his life.
CB: So, we’re going to get Terry to talk about the technicalities here because he came to Cranwell as a boy entrant in the days when they were doing that sort of training at Cranwell. So what do we know about that?
TG: Well, from what he told us and from the books we have that he wrote at the time, his technical notes, he was being trained on radio and electrical theory. And at that time of course he was too young to join aircrew but when the war did break out he did volunteer for bomber crew and he was accepted for that. He was sent from Cranwell to a Gunnery School at Upper Heyford and he trained on wireless op, as a wireless operator and he was trained in Morse Code. Subsequent to that training he joined or was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Finningley.
CB: I think as a wireless operator/air gunner then he went to an outpost somewhere to be trained in gunnery.
TG: Yes. He went West Freugh.
CB: West Freugh.
TG: Freugh. Yes.
CB: In Scotland.
TG: Yes. His first flight was from West Freugh in March I think it was. 1940.
CB: Right.
TG: According to his log book.
CB: So he would have just been eighteen then.
TG: He would. Yes. He’d just turned eighteen a couple of months before. And obviously he was successful and then was sent to Finningley.
CB: Right. Just stop there a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re just going to go back to the Cranwell experience because he’s away from home and there are things there that are different —
RG: Yes.
CB: From being in Wales. So —
RG: Very different. His mum was a very good cook and there was always very good portions for the family but at Cranwell the portions were very small and obviously it didn’t meet dad’s appetite. So the only thing that he could fill up on was cabbage. Dad hated cabbage but he learned that, you know if he wanted to feel full cabbage was the way forward and eventually got to like it and grew them. Yeah.
CB: Extraordinary. But he was being trained in ground radio and electrical activities so most likely he then did some work on the ground.
TG: He did. I understand it was at Abingdon to start with before he was posted to Finningley.
CB: Before he did his gunnery course.
TG: Before his gunnery course. Yes.
CB: Yes. So while he was at Abingdon he, it sounds as though it was when he was there that he volunteered for aircrew.
TG: That’s right. He, after, he then attended a gunnery course and was posted to Finningley where he then flew as a wireless operator and air gunner with 106 Squadron.
CB: What aircraft were they flying?
RG: Hampdens.
TG: They were Hampdens at the time.
CB: Right.
TG: And he later, he was posted with 106 Squadron to Coningsby. And he did thirty operations with 106 Squadron. One of his pilots was a chap called Bob Wareing who on one particular raid they attacked the Schnarhorst and the Gneisenau in Brest and they were successful in putting that ship out of action. And the Scharnhorst. And for that raid I understand that his pilot was awarded the DFC and Peter was mentioned in dispatches. At the end of his thirty raids, thirty operations he, he was posted to Polebrook and seconded to the Americans. But I should add that whilst he was Finningley of course they used to occasionally listen to Lord Haw Haw who correctly broadcast that the clock in the sergeant’s mess was ten minutes slow. Which he often used to laugh about, didn’t he? Your father. That he was correct in Lord Haw Haw. But whilst he was at Polebrook with the Americans he flew in their B17s and he taught them wireless operations and Morse Code. And he flew quite on a few, on a few training exercises with them. One particular rather unsavoury incident took place when he took the class out, of Americans to a pub one night. Amongst them was a black crew.
RG: American.
TG: American crewman. And while in the pub the American military police came in and dragged the black lad out, beat him up and dragged him away because he was in the wrong sort of pub. They say. Your father couldn’t really understand it could he? Peter couldn’t. Pete couldn’t understand that. They charged, the barman charged your dad sixpence. Peter, Pete was charged sixpence because in the melee they broke a beer glass. But he, he never forgot that incident and he couldn’t really rationalise it. It was not what he had expected so to speak. On another occasion he told us that the flight engineer went berserk on the aircraft and in order to subdue him Peter had to, or Pete had to knock him out with an ammo box. I understand there was, and he was grounded for LMF afterwards. Not Pete. The flight engineer.
CB: The American. American flight engineer.
TG: No. No.
RG: No, this was —
TG: This was while he was at Finningley.
RG: Yeah.
CB: Oh, Finningley. Oh, right.
TG: Yeah. Sorry. I’m getting things out of order aren’t I, a little bit?
CB: Yeah. Right.
TG: Slightly. Doesn’t matter.
CB: Ok. So this is 106 Squadron.
TG: As far as I remember it was 106.
CB: At Finningley.
TG: Yes. On another occasion that they went on a couple of gardening missions which was obviously dropping the mines. But they’d got one on board still after this operation and they ventured into France to see whether they could drop this mine somewhere else. And they didn’t take much notice of it but a light aircraft gun opened fire on them and as far as they were aware nothing had happened but when they landed the rear gunner was dead and the thing was awash with blood. His area. And they could never get rid of that blood off that aircraft however much they washed it.
CB: We’ll stop there.
RG: Yes, I—
[recording paused]
CB: So, just going back to the gardening bit.
TG: Gardening of course was dropping mines into the sea and to do that one had to fly very low otherwise the mines would break up. So when they flew in over the land they would also be very low and in range of the, the light anti-aircraft gun that obviously caught the rear gunner.
CB: What sort of anecdotes did he have about training and what was going on there? So, on the airfield.
TG: Well, he did tell me on more than one occasion that he recalled two acts that appeared to be of sabotage when he was, I think training as a gunner. On one occasion he said, on one evening or one night five aircraft who weren’t parked together caught fire almost simultaneously. On another occasion he was on board an aircraft which, as it took off and it had taken off only managed to travel just over the perimeter of the airfield when they crash landed in to a field and the aircraft caught fire. They all managed to get out although Peter said he was burned a little bit. Such was the mark of the man. But when the aircraft was examined because it had failed to gain height the chain that operated the elevators had a, had a bolt inserted in to stop it from operating fully. What became of any enquiry into that he didn’t know and I don’t know. So that was a couple of sort of sad incidents, or suspicious incidents that he, he mentioned to us.
CB: What affect did the loss of the rear gunner have on the rest of the crew?
TG: He never said because —
RG: Dad passed out.
TG: Your father passed out, I think. Peter —
RG: At the sight of the blood.
TG: Pete passed out at the sight of the blood when they landed. But as I’ve already indicated that however much they tried to clean that aircraft the stains of that blood remained. But I rather think that was with 106 Squadron.
CB: And that would need a replacement. So how did the replacement fit in to the crew? Do we know about that?
TG: Peter never said. He didn’t elaborate too much on that side of the operations. He never really mentioned the losses he witnessed when he was on the raids. Although we do know that those losses and what happened haunted him for the rest of his life.
CB: Because this is the early part of the war we’re talking about here.
TG: Yes.
CB: So the Americans came in in ’42.
TG: Yes.
CB: That’s why they were getting help. So what else did he tell you about dealing with the Americans? Working with the Americans.
RG: One story was that dad had been on, I can’t tell you where he’d been on the raid but he was flying back and the aircraft had got minor damage and they couldn’t make it back to East Kirkby. So they had to fly and land lower down the country. Was it lower? Or upper? Well, he landed —
TG: South.
RG: Yes. And dad was doing the Morse Code. The colours of the day and who they were etcetera and he flew over an American base and they opened fire on them. And dad was firing away, not firing away, he was doing his Morse Code. Who he was and the aircraft. And eventually after they’d fired at them, eventually the penny dropped who they were and they landed. They were escorted. The crew were escorted by gunpoint to a higher level. Dad and his crew should have been in the officer’s mess but they weren’t. They were separated. Eventually the aircraft was made airworthy and they took off. And being as they were a whole load of young lads they raided the stores and filled it with toilet rolls. Filled the bomb bay with toilet rolls. They should have flown off and come home to East Kirkby but no. Young lads as they were the pilot did a turn around and as they flew over the airfield the bomb bays opened, the toilet rolls flew out and dad tapped away, you historically say, ‘You crapped on us [laughs] Here’s the bumph to go with it.’ When they got back to East Kirkby they thought oh my goodness we’re all going to be in trouble but nothing was ever said. So, yes. That was, and dad didn’t have a great love of the Americans.
CB: This is, this is later in the war we’re talking about here.
RG: Yes. Later. Yes.
CB: But it’s prompted by the earlier point about being at Polebrook.
RG: Yes.
TG: So —
RG: The Americans. Yeah.
CB: What else do we know about when he was there?
TG: After thirty operations which Peter thankfully survived he volunteered and was, as I say an instructor, went as an instructor to the US Air Force at Polebrook. Teaching them Morse Code and wireless operations procedure and I think we’ve already mentioned about this business about going to the pub haven’t we?
CB: Yes.
TG: Shall I read —
CB: What other, what other experiences did he have with them?
TG: Well, they, they used to fly all over the country of course but Peter at that time, I’m not sure if that time he was probably married to Olive which we’ll come to later but, who was at Spalding in South Lincolnshire and he used to persuade the Americans to land at Sutton Bridge which was only about fifteen miles from Spalding, when he’d been on a trip with them. And he’d disembark from the aircraft and he’d cadge a lift one way or another into Spalding to see Olive. So he was using them as a rather an expensive taxi but it served his purpose very well.
RG: Mum and dad met when dad was visiting a crew member who’d got badly burned in an aircraft and, I don’t think it was one of dad’s crew but it was a fellow RAF man. And he was at Stamford Hospital and I think they went on a motorbike, two of them to see, to visit this friend and they stopped back at Spalding obviously for a beer or two. And they went to the Greyhound down Broad Street in Spalding and my mum was, Olive was the bar maid there. And obviously there was some attraction and dad kept visiting. Yeah. But that’s where they first met. And if he hadn’t have wanted a beer and pulled in they would never have met. And mum and dad were married in April 1942.
CB: So, how did they keep contact during the war?
RG: I think it was dad visiting home. They lived at, with my nan in Little London which is very close to Spalding. I think it was just a question of dad coming and visiting and letters. That sort of thing. Yes.
CB: Ok. So at the end of his posting to Polebrook to assist the Americans.
TG: Yes.
CB: How long was that posting there? Do we know?
TG: Well, he, he volunteered for a second tour and he was posted in 1943. In November 1943 if I recall correctly to Husbands Bosworth where he trained with a [pause] with his second crew. A rookie crew.
CB: That was an OTU.
TG: Yes.
CB: 14 OTU. Yeah.
TG: But from February 1941 he’d been at Coningsby just to go back. He did his thirty raids. Then to Polebrook. And then by November ’43 he, he, he, he went to Husbands Bosworth and there he was crewed up with, as I say the new crew who were under training and the pilot was, flight well then he was flight lieutenant then, but a chap called J B P Spencer who was nicknamed Tuesday for reasons that Peter could never discover. Tuesday was from Durham and from quite a well to do family. They and the rest of the crew after they’d finished training were posted to East Kirkby in the run up basically to D-Day.
CB: And then what was the Squadron number there?
TG: It was 57 Squadron.
CB: Right.
TG: At East Kirkby at the time.
CB: Flying?
TG: Lancasters then.
CB: Well, normally there would be a link of a Heavy Conversion Unit between the OTU and the Squadron but it’s possible they didn’t have them operating at that time. When did he go to East Kirkby?
TG: In March 1944.
CB: Ok.
TG: That’s from memory but —
CB: Stop there briefly.
TG: I’m sure it is.
[recording paused]
CB: So we’re chopping and changing a bit but let’s just go back to Finningley.
RG: [unclear]
CB: So what, what, yes what anecdotes do we have about dad flying in Finningley?
RG: Well, I haven’t any recollection of dad talking about it at the time of that he was in there but later on life I and my husband went on holiday and we flew. It was then Robin Hood Airport and we flew from Finningley as it was and dad said oh, well his pilot, Spencer was rubbish at flying. Flying a plane. He would just throw it in to the sky and when he landed he would equally do the same. It was always a hit and miss affair whether they actually got down ok. Dad said that Finningley had got a crosswind and you had to fly, land it sort of diagonal. I didn’t believe him really but off we went on this holiday. And when we came back the wind was that strong that we basically had to fly as dad had said that his Spencer did. But it was typical. We landed and we were home. But yes. So Finningley has never got any better over the years. Or is it the pilots?
CB: Or is it the crosswind?
RG: Crosswind. Well, yes I suppose it’s how, how the airfield is. Mind you they don’t call them airfields now, do they?
CB: Well, it’s an airport now.
RG: An airport. Yeah. But to me they’ll be aerodromes.
CB: Home of the Vulcan. Yes.
RG: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Right.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
TG: Right. From the OTU at Husbands Bosworth and at Market Harborough Pete then was posted to the HCU at Wigsley where they flew Stirlings. And then on to Syerston where he —
CB: Lancaster Flying School.
TG: Well, the —
CB: Finishing School.
TG: The Lancaster Finishing School, I beg your pardon at Syerston where I think they’d also pick up the engineer, would they not?
CB: They would have done that at Wigsley.
TG: Yeah. Sorry at Wigsley.
CB: Yes. But he doesn’t mention that in his tour because it’s expanding the crew to the final seventh man.
TG: I see. He never, he never mentioned much about some details.
CB: No. Then he went on to his second operational Squadron which was?
TG: 57 Squadron.
CB: Yeah.
TG: Where —
CB: That was, where was that?
TG: East Kirkby.
CB: Right.
TG: And that was in April 1944.
CB: Right. We’ll stop there for a mo. Thank you.
[recording paused]
TG: The attrition rate was very very high.
CB: So he joined 57 Squadron in 1944.
TG: Yes.
CB: Early part of ’44. Didn’t he?
TG: With Tuesday Spencer as his pilot. And the rest of the crew, Clarke, West, Hughes-Games, and Grice and George I think his name was. And they flew twenty five missions and I think they were very intense at the time. The enemy fire and such. But they managed to survive it but at the end of the twenty five raids Peter was told by the commanding officer he could not continue to fly. He’d had, he needed a rest and he was stood down. And he went for about ten days leave and when he came back he discovered that the rest of his crew were dead or at least missing. And it transpired that they’d been shot down on the 31st of August 1944 after a raid on the railway yards at Joigny La Roche. About a hundred and twenty kilometres south west I think of Paris. And when he arrived back on base he was summoned to the station commander’s office where he was introduced to Tuesday Spencer’s parents who wanted to meet him as the friend of their late son. And —
RG: Twenty.
TG: Sorry?
RG: The lad was twenty.
TG: He was only twenty years old was Tuesday. And Pete was only a little bit more and they gave Peter five pounds to spend on a good night out.
RG: No. They sent him to mark his commission and his DFC five pounds.
TG: Of the —
RG: Because of their, yes that’s in here. Yeah.
TG: Yeah. And instead of spending it on drink because probably his first inclination would be to do he and Olive decided to spend this money on a pair of candlesticks in memory of the crew. And those candlesticks are still with Rachel’s elder sister. Pride of place on the mantelpiece no doubt. In memory of them. What happened to that crew was that from research we’ve carried out and what Peter was told at the time that the aircraft at least blew up returning from the raid. As far as we can work out. And from, again from records we obtained from the Public Record Office at Kew Hughey, Hughey Hughes-Games was the first to parachute out of the plane followed by Sergeant Grice who Peter didn’t know but was acting as Pete’s replacement while he was stood down. And the Germans later said a third parachute caught fire on the way down but no other men escaped the plane. And the Lanc which was called Q for Queenie ND954 burned out on the ground. Hughes-Games it transpired was taken prisoner of war as was Sergeant Grice and the rest of the crew were killed. And they’re buried at Banneville-La-Campagne near Caen. I might have pronounced that incorrectly. Sadly, Hughes-Games who was interviewed by the Red Cross and from some of the information I’ve given to you about it catching fire and whatever came from him he contracted meningitis and died in, Stalag 3 was it? And is buried in Poland. The rest of the crew as I say are buried near Caen. And I took Peter back there and we’ve been back to their graves several times. Sergeant Grice survived as a prisoner of war and I think he ended up back at home and he lived to be in his mid-eighties in Shropshire. But we never met him and Peter didn’t know him. So that was really the last of his memories of 57 Squadron and the loss of that crew. He did commence a third tour. Incidentally, the crew he lost at 57 Squadron were on their thirty first raid. And it’s commonly thought that thirty was the limit but temporarily it was lifted to thirty five around that time I understand. And sadly on their thirty first raid when they died.
RG: The only plane on that day to be lost from East Kirkby.
TG: On the 31st of July that raid went, basically things were a lot easier for the bombers at that time and it was the only aircraft lost on that raid, on that day from East Kirkby.
CB: How did he feel about the loss of his crew?
TG: Peter never spoke much about the experience he had until he retired from his business when he was about seventy. And I discussed it at great length with him and I took him as I say back to France, down to Kew, to Runnymede, St Martin in the Fields. All the Memorials because he started to open up but he never gave much detail about the bad side of it. He mentioned the crew had been killed and he was quite matter of fact about it but that was the surface.
RG: Say now about dad’s nightmares all his life.
TG: But subconsciously we know that he, he was greatly affected by, by his experiences. You’ve got to bear in mind that he, his flying hours exceeded a thousand. A thousand hours in these, in these terrible conditions. I mean they weren’t sitting back. They were bitterly cold, frightened to death and as he often told us more ammunition was wasted on the Morning/Evening Star than shooting at other aircraft because they were quite obviously tense and wound up. But when I met him and he was in his mid-forties then occasionally if we were staying there we would hear him in the middle of the night when he was asleep.
RG: [unclear]
TG: And also at our house in later life if he was ill he would start up talking to his skipper on the radio in his sleep. In talking almost as if it was happening. These episodes of talking to the skipper and warning him about approaching aircraft or, ‘Let’s get out of here,’ didn’t last for a few minutes. They would last for hours in, in the night. Where he would, he would start off and then ten minutes later he’d had another instruction to the skipper, the pilot to warn him of approaching aircraft. And this was when Peter was seventy five or eighty years old. This was forty years later. And it was obviously imprinted on his subconscious indelibly and whilst to talk to him it didn’t affect him if he talked about it a lot at a function when he was later in life because as I say he didn’t disclose much at all of, of the worst side of things but it was obviously there underneath. And if he, if he’d been talking to you now like I’m talking to you tonight he would have been flying again. In his sleep.
RG: In the mornings he would say, ‘Oh, my goodness. I’ve been flying all night. All night.’ Right up until he was in hospital and Helen went to see him, my sister and just before he died he was still flying.
CB: So, who used to go and see him in the night?
TG: We —
RG: Me. Usually me. Or when he was with mum, mum would.
TG: Mum.
RG: Yeah. But when he, after my mum died and he would be here with us it would be me.
TG: But he was ok the next day as a rule. The one thing I noticed about him and maybe many, many other bomber crew he didn’t have any friends from those days. Like some of the army chaps. Simply because there were none left. They had all been killed. All his crew had been killed hadn’t they? I think he stayed in touch with Bob Wareing briefly.
RG: Yes.
TG: Until he died. And about [unclear]
RG: He stayed, he stayed friends with a lot of the RAF people.
TG: But they’d not flown with him.
RG: Through his association with the Royal Observer Corps and the RAF Association.
TG: And the British Legion.
RG: And the British Legion. And also he was a member of Fenland Airfield and he loved to go and spend time down there.
TG: But he never knew or could talk to anyone who flew with him.
RG: Except —
TG: On those raids.
RG: Except —
TG: Except on one occasion at the —
RG: Metheringham.
TG: Metheringham. The reunion which was held, held every year of 106 Squadron he bumped into —
RG: Well, he nearly didn’t go.
TG: He nearly didn’t go. He was very ill. Quite ill at the time and it was not that long before Pete’s death. But we took him to Metheringham, to the old airfield and he bumped into a chap and they got talking and it transpired that on the Scharnhorst raid this chap remembered it clearly and had been in another aircraft on that same raid. And he remembered some talk of Peter shooting down an enemy aircraft. But Peter, Pete always said he thought, they thought he had originally but he never claimed it was him, did he?
RG: But he, this gentleman knew the formation. He said, ‘And your pilot pulled out of formation to go in again.’ And it was just listening to these two old gentlemen who were well into their eighties talking as though they were there that present moment. But for two old age people to be there just by chance on that reunion was amazing. Terry has that on video because we’d just got a new video camera. Yeah.
TG: That’s with IBC, they’ve got the copy of that. Well, we’ve got it here.
RG: Yes.
TG: But I video’d that conversation and it’s now been —
CB: Brilliant.
RG: Yeah.
CB: So we’re really talking about 106 Squadron when they were flying Hampdens.
RG: From Metheringham Airfield.
CB: From Metheringham.
RG: This one. Yes.
TG: He’s written Coningsby but it was definitely —
CB: Metheringham.
TG: Well, it was a satellite wasn’t it?
CB: Yes.
TG: He flew from there. He met, he once, he met Gibson once or twice and knew him. He wasn’t a very popular man, was he? Gibson.
CB: No.
TG: Very officious. But it’s not on there is it? Is that switched off?
CB: Yeah. No. No. It isn’t. We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: The matter of how to speak about these things was difficult for most war veterans. Aircrew particularly. Perhaps because of the high losses. But then there’s the effect on the families. So he’s speaking in his sleep in these times.
RG: Yeah.
CB: What affect did that have on you?
RG: Well, I was mainly concerned for Dad’s well-being really and I would go and chat to him. Although he was asleep his eyes would be open and he didn’t really know I was there. But obviously he did and then he would calm and then in the morning he would say, ‘Rachel, I’ve been flying all night.’ And I would say, ‘Yes, dad. I know.’ But he’d no recollection of me being there. But it was, it was quite upsetting to hear that he was, and he was talking and as though you know he was there, ‘Skip, they’re coming in at — ’ so and so, you know, ‘Do we fire now?’ And it was just as though he was there. But obviously, you know it was affecting his mind. And right up until the minute, well not the minute but the day before he died he was still flying. Yeah. It was —
TG: He was eighty one when he died.
RG: But as a child Dad the war was not spoken to about a lot but on the days when Dad would be slightly not well I was told that I’d got to behave because he wasn’t very well. And that was the reason. But yeah. But in the night he didn’t seem to be agitated by it. It was just as though it was happening and he was coping with it.
CB: So it’s no shouting.
RG: No.
CB: It’s just a conversation.
RG: Yes. Yeah. As though —
CB: As though he’s on the intercom.
RG: Yeah.
TG: As calm as you and I now. Controlled. And so and so’s happening, Skip.
RG: Just as though they were getting on with the job.
TG: A normal tone of voice as if and then an hour later or ten minutes later he’d give an update of some sort. ‘Let’s get the bloody [pause] out of here skipper.’ And that was it.
CB: Because he was acting as a lookout.
RG: Yes.
TG: Well, yes.
RG: Yes.
TG: Oh yes.
CB: As a child though you were told that he was, it was a bad day. So what did you feel as a child when you, he had these episodes?
RG: I just took it, I just took it as, as I’ve got, behave myself. I think I was a bit of reckless child but you know I just got to behave myself and that was it [pause] But no, he was, no. Just my dad.
CB: But he was always calm in what he was doing. It was —
RG: Just turn that off a minute.
CB: Yeah. Sure.
[recording paused]
CB: So how did your mother handle this?
RG: Well, very calmly I think. Dad would on, on what I now know was his sort of bad days he would be prone to picking arguments and probably doing a bit of shouting which was quite unusual for dad because he was quite a calm person. But in, you know he would be probably be shouting at mum but I just sort of took it as I’d just got to behave myself and that would be it. But mum always, when dad was like this was always very sort of calm, and well I suppose she was talking him down a bit. But it was never mentioned why he was like it and I just thought oh well other people’s dads shout and that, you know and that was it. But as a general rule he was such a calm sort of person. Took everything in his stride really. But on these occasions that, that used to happen. Yeah.
CB: To what extent do you think over the years he had spoken to your mother about his experiences?
RG: I don’t really know. I wouldn’t. I would imagine not a lot. It was, I wouldn’t, I never overheard them talking about anything but then I wouldn’t always be there but, no it was usually, if dad spoke about anything it wasn’t how it affected him. It was usually telling a tale of what he’d been up to. What raid he’d been on and different aspects of what they, you know, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t the horrors. It was more of the good bits. You know. Tearing about on a motorbike and that sort of thing as you would expect lads of that age to be doing.
TG: And he was only twenty or so.
CB: Yeah.
TG: When all this was —
CB: Yes.
TG: You know, that was the average age of these —
CB: Sure. Oh yes. Absolutely. So she was in the Spalding area.
RG: All the time. Yes.
CB: Surrounded by Air Force. They were married in the war.
RG: Yes.
CB: She continued did she in her bar work?
RG: Yes. She was a nanny and, to a family who had four children and they kept the Greyhound. So in the day mum would be looking after the children. Helping with that sort of thing. And then she would as and when she was required she would be the bar. The bar girl. Yes. So she stayed with the family. Well, they’re godparents to me and later John one of the sons went into partnership with my dad as a nurseryman and, but mum didn’t live always at the Greyhound. She lived with her parents in Little London. And then when my sister Helen was born she, she was with nan and then mum would be continuing to work and home as normal mum’s do. Yeah.
CB: The reason I ask the question is because to some extent she was programmed to the losses and the stoic reaction of the other crews.
RG: Yes. Yes. I don’t honestly know whether it was all talked about but no doubt it would be you know mentioned. You know. Particularly the loss of all the crew. The last, last one.
TG: I’ve mentioned Tuesday and then of course she had the incident with the DFC. Your mum was disappointed.
CB: So what was that?
RG: Well, dad was awarded the DFC. And mum saved all the coupons and my nan, all the coupons for a new outfit. Coat. A new coat was, I think she had it made and, and you know all ready to go to London, to the Palace and then the king was very poorly so of course it, they couldn’t go. And the DFC was given to dad by his commanding officer over the counter more or less at East Kirkby. And it was very, very disappointing for mum not to be going on that.
CB: I can imagine. Yes.
TG: The king did write. We’ve still got the letter of course.
RG: Oh yes. We, yeah.
CB: Not the same as having it —
RG: No. But no —
CB: Conferred on you.
RG: Well, in those days where they lived, a little village. Oh, you know. Olive Hazeldene. She’s going to the Palace, you know. And a new coat was got. You know it’s just, well, it was one of those things isn’t it? The poor old king.
CB: Well, people didn’t travel much in those days so —
RG: No.
CB: It was a major —
RG: It was a big thing.
CB: Task.
RG: Yes.
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: You were, so let’s just catch up on here.
RG: Do you know, I’m really, I’m really a very strong character but when I start crying I cry for days. Mr Panton, we were talking to him, oh I forgot what I was going to say. We were talking to him one day about dad.
CB: Just to that in to context the airfield was bought by the Panton’s for their chicken farm.
RG: Yes.
CB: And then they bought what is now called, “Just Jane.”
RG: Yes. Yeah. From Scampton. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So you were saying though that before that happened.
RG: No.
CB: We used to go there.
RG: No. No.
RG: Yeah. We used to go.
TG: Go back to the beginning.
CB: Dad would just go in.
RG: We used to go there, but we never used to speak to anybody because we were like trespassers trespassing and but we used to go and just like look and that was it and you know we girls would probably play hide and seek and that would be it.
CB: On the airfield.
RG: On the airfield. Yes. And then when after dad died we got the Memorial cabinet set up. We were talking to Mr Fred Panton one day and he was saying, and I said my dad would never come in the Lancaster. And he said that they had, when they started doing the taxi runs they had this gentleman who booked himself on one of the flights as they called it. He would come early, have a bit of lunch and sit there and then he would be ready, his flight would be ready, they would call him but he just couldn’t bring himself to get on it. And he said he did it numerous times. Not just the once. Numerous times. Where he really wanted to go on the taxi run but couldn’t bring himself to. And he was, like dad had flown from there.
CB: What do you think was the origin of that reaction?
RG: I would imagine that it would be bringing back all the horrors of, of going. You know, on these raids.
CB: In your case was it your father’s reaction of the loss of the crew without him being there?
RG: He never actually said anything about it but no if I mentioned, ‘Oh, shall we go on one of those taxi runs?’ ‘No. I don’t think so Rachel.’ And that was it but he did [pause] he got a tree planted just around the corner from the mess and in memory and he had a plaque put for his crew. You carry on. Oh dear.
CB: We’ll stop a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Even though —
RG: Even though dad never actually said how he felt about his crew he did have a tree, bought a tree, a big flowering cherry, had the tree planted and he had a plaque with the all the names of his crew and why we put it there. And now we’ve got, and now we’ve got one by the side of it for dad.
CB: This is a really emotional and emotive activity and task to follow up. But taking the bombing war itself what was his attitude towards bombing in general?
RG: He just, he just, he didn’t do too much commenting on it but I got the feeling that dad was given a task to do and they just went and did it. And didn’t give a great deal, no I was going to say a great deal of thought to what they were doing but obviously they were. But they were just following orders I think. That’s, but he didn’t, dad didn’t say too much. He was a very private sort of fella. Yeah.
CB: Terry, what do you think?
TG: Well, he told me that it was a job that had to be done and he did as he was told and he kept at it. It was the only way. Bearing in mind at the time the only people that were taking the war to Germany was Bomber Command. And he, I asked him sometimes why they’d not been recognised and he just said that’s just how it was. He wasn’t, he got to the stage where he wasn’t, he wasn’t bothered that there was no particular medal for Bomber Command in the war. We all know the political sensitivities about that but that was the way it was. He had a job to do, he said and he did it to the best he could. And he said he was just very, very lucky to have survived.
CB: We talked about his DFC. His navigator also had a DFC. Doesn’t look as though the pilot had a DFC. But what was the, his 57 Squadron pilot because his 106 had two DFCs didn’t he? Wareing.
TG: I think Bob Wareing, 106 Squadron had a DFC and probably a DFC and bar. Peter eventually got his. He said he got it because he was lucky to be alive. But read the citation. Continually went into some of the worst and most heavily defended targets. Sorry. You asked me what?
CB: Yeah. I was going to say what was the reason that, given for his receiving the DFC? Because it was a particular point.
TG: It was a non-immediate award.
CB: Right.
TG: And it was I think the citation and it’s around somewhere was continued enthusiasm and leadership going in to some of the, as I say the worst defended targets repeatedly again and again and again. When he was eventually put forward for it and he received it in 1944. Yes, it was 1944.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
TG: It was, it was some years or quite a long time after I had married Rachel that he even mentioned he’d got it. It wasn’t something that was a big thing with him.
RG: As a child dad was a member of the Royal Observer Corps. He was chief, Observer Corps at the post at Maxey, and on ceremonial occasions, on marches and Remembrance Sundays the medals always came out. So he was very proud of them, but as to talk about it that would be a different matter. But on an occasion where other members of the Royal Observer Corps and the British Legion and all that he would wear them with pride. Yeah.
CB: Now, his 57 Squadron tour finished at twenty five ops for him.
TG: Yes.
CB: What did he do after that?
TG: Well, he, he, he started a third tour at Syerston. From Syerston on Lancasters. But he did a few operational tours before the war finished.
CB: Which Squadron was that?
TG: I can’t remember.
CB: It doesn’t matter. But he was on operations. Not training.
TG: No. He was on operations. We see from his logbook he made at least one or two trips to Berlin. Four or five days after Germany surrendered.
CB: Oh right.
TG: And that was the end of his operational duties but I think he stayed on for another eighteen months or so before finally leaving the RAF.
CB: What, what — how did he come to be in the Observer Corps?
RG: My Uncle Bert. He was my godfather. He was a member of the Royal Observer Corps and dad went. Followed him sort of thing. Yeah. Got the Queen’s Silver Jubilee for services to the Royal Observer Corps. And he was chief observer at the Maxey post.
CB: Which is where exactly?
TG: Just outside of Peterborough. Between Peterborough and —
RG: Yeah. Market Deeping.
TG: Until, until it was disbanded.
RG: Yes.
TG: He, he stayed ‘til the end.
RG: He did all the talks on the, you know when the bomb, what was going off. I used to go with him on those talks. We talked to all sorts of organisations. I was in charge of the slides. You know. To show them. I felt as if I knew everything about it. Yes.
TG: I did talk to him about D-Day. I asked him if he’d been on an operation leading up to D-Day and in fact as his logbook proves he was. 5 Group went and bombed on the evening of the 5th of June 1944. Maisy Grandcamp and that area there. I asked him what he thought about it and what he knew about it. When he went on that raid he had no idea it was D-Day. He didn’t know it was D-Day and neither did anybody else but the top brass. As you probably know. And he said he thought it was funny because as he flew over the Channel, he thought on his screen there was a lot of Window. The silver.
CB: Radar jamming.
TG: The radar jamming stuff that was flying around but it, they did the raid and they got back and he went back and went to bed. And then when he woke up the next morning they told him it was D-Day and what he’d seen on his screen wasn’t Window. It was the boats. It was, it was the invasion fleet going. And that was the first he knew it was D-Day because of the secrecy of everything.
CB: This was on his H2S radar.
TG: Yes.
CB: He was seeing it.
TG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
TG: But that’s, but that’s his recollection of that. But he remembered some, some raids and he’d tell me briefly about them. I think once they, shortly after D-Day they were detailed to attack Caen. The Germans there, and bomb at a certain point. But between taking off and getting this message our side, I think Canadians advanced further and I think there was quite a lot of allied troops killed by our own side in that raid. You probably know more about it than I do. Similarly we talked about the Scharnhorst earlier. That was a raid he told me that went slightly wrong. The plan had been, I think it was Poleglase was the station commander who led them in. But the plan had been for bombers to go in early at high level and get the bombs, the ships guns pointing upwards when Pete’s group would come in low and give them a good hiding. But I think the timing went wrong and they were waiting for them and hence the first three aircraft were shot out of the sky and then Wareing took that detour inland and came and got them from the other way. But these are the things that are probably not documented anywhere else.
CB: Now, the other major ship of course, capital ship was the Bismarck.
TG: Yes.
CB: So to what did he, extent did he have an involvement with that?
TG: He told us and it came to light after a chance conversation forty or fifty years later. Forty years later. With a chap in the Mail Cart pub at Spalding. But Pete told us that they knew where the Bismarck was heading but they didn’t quite know where it was as I understood it. So they went off to lay some mines in the Bay of Biscay and they were talked down as to where they should plant these mines by some of the Naval vessels. And that is what they did. And obviously a short time later the Bismarck was sunk by other means. But the chap in the, in the pub years later it transpired was on one of our Naval vessels and he was a wireless operator talking with the RAF and giving them instructions. So it was probably that Peter actually had spoken to this man before but never met him in entirely different circumstances than over a pint in the Mail Cart.
RG: Steward and Patteson’s.
TG: Yeah. So Steward and Patteson’s was a, that was another. Pete. Pete knew his beers. He knew them like no man I’ve ever met. And he could drink probably more than any man I’ve ever met [laughs] But when I first met him he used to take me to the Dun Cow at Spalding. Well at Cowbit. And he had this Steward and Patteson was one of the local brewers and Pete with his favourite pint but they used to grow barley in Norfolk for the beer, and they used to grow barley in Lincolnshire on the other side of the River Nene. And Pete could tell from the drink which side of the river the barley had been grown. Now, whether he was shooting the line.
RG: He would be.
TG: Which I’m sure he was but people believed him. So there you go. That’s, that’s the man. He was a very tall man, you know. About six foot two, wasn’t he? Very gentle. And he could speak equally to Prince Phillip or the Queen who he met a time or two.
RG: Garden parties.
TG: Or to the local drunk on his bike going past his nursery. Couldn’t he?
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
TG: Couldn’t he? He was at ease with anybody.
CB: And talking of nurseries. After the war how did he come to take up horticulture?
RG: Well, he went to work for Nell Brothers. Horticulturalists in Spalding. And he went as worker there. And then he went to Swanley Horticultural College and did a course on growing and all that sort of thing. And then he came back home. And then one of the Prestons, John Preston was of school leaving age and he thought he might like a career in horticulture. Growing type things. His father was loosely connected. And so they set up the nursery. They rented the land from Uncle Bert and they set up the business of Redmile Nurseries. John was the young lad and my dad was the expert as it were. And they worked there ‘til dad retired. You know. Quite a successful. Growing tomatoes, lettuce. The land had a bit of wheat on. They did lot of potato chitting. Cut flowers in the greenhouses. They expanded a little bit but that’s it. That’s where dad worked.
TG: He spent all his, his remainder of his working life.
RG: Yes.
TG: The Preston family that Rachel mentioned are the same ones that Olive was nanny too.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And who owned the Greyhound at Spalding.
RG: Yes.
TG: And in fact, John, his partner only died last week. He was eighty five.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Do you want to just say that again.
RG: Yeah. Dad grew all sorts of veg and things like that. Tomatoes and lettuce. But he absolutely hated tomatoes. It was quite funny really. You grow them, you know and yeah. But he hated them.
CB: What was the origin of that?
RG: I’ve absolutely no idea really but yeah. Yeah. It’s [pause] yeah.
TG: But his —
RG: But we never ate tomatoes like they do in supermarkets now. Red. They’d always got to be firm and orange and they’d always got to be of a certain size. Other things like you have beef tomatoes and things nowadays they just went on the skip. It had got to be if I can remember pink, or pink and white. That was the grade of the tomatoes.
TG: If they were red they weren’t fit to eat.
RG: No. They were thrown out. They were only for frying.
TG: But of course Rachel does the garden. That’s been inherited from her dad I think.
CB: Looks smashing.
TG: Well, your other sister is a horticulturist.
RG: Yes. Helen is horticultural.
TG: In a big way big way down in Spalding.
RG: Yes. Yeah.
TG: Yes.
CB: Stop there again.
[recording paused]
RG: And they went on their honeymoon. The Preston’s had a bungalow at Surfleet Reservoir. And mum and dad went down there. I suppose it was all the time they’d got. They went down there for the honeymoon to the bungalow at Surfleet Reservoir. It’s where the river comes in and there’s a, there’s a sluice gate before it goes out into the sea. Surfleet Reservoir. In the day it was quite a nice little place to be. Yeah, and that’s where they went on their honeymoon.
TG: About three miles from home.
RG: Yes. Well, why not?
CB: Might have got recalled.
TG: Well, yes.
RG: Well, that’s always a possibility isn’t it?
TG: That was it. But —
CB: Stop there.
[recording paused]
CB: So, did you go back to France quite often? Where the crew were buried.
TG: Rachel and, Rachel and I went on holiday in France quite often and always drive. One time when we were coming back we went to Normandy where my father fought and went to some of the cemeteries at Omaha and others. And at the time I think I managed it was sort of pre-internet days really. But I managed to find where Peter’s crew were buried from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and on the way back we travelled to Banneville and to the Commonwealth and found Tuesday Spencer and Weston Clark and Anderson. Their grave. And we came back on the Tuesday and Peter had never set foot abroad. He’d left his mark. By golly he had in France and in Germany from high, from on high and I mentioned I’d been and I didn’t know really how to put it because I didn’t know how it would affect him emotionally. And I said we’d been and found the graves and he did say, ‘I’d like to go.’ So this was on the Tuesday. On the Saturday we jumped in his Rover and I went back to France with him and we had the whale of a time. We had a whale of a time. We not only visited. We visited some hostelries there and we visited Pointe du Hoc and Omaha, and I took him to the graves and he stood beside them and he signed the book. He was very quiet but he was completely controlled and he was able to speak quite easily of them. And so he did and we’ve got photographs of the graves and Peter with them.
CB: So what did he talk about?
TG: When he was there? He would talk about Tuesday. He was, I think the closest because he didn’t know anything much about other crews and that was fairly [pause] fairly part of the course wasn’t it? He knew his own crew but Tuesday had a motor bike and he’d got a girlfriend. I think he was having trouble with this girlfriend and I think Pete used to advise him a little bit on the, on procedure and protocols and things like that. But I think he also used to take Pete to Spalding to see Olive and that sort of thing and have a few pints.
RG: Dad put in here that he socialised an awful lot with Tuesday. He had a little bit more money than dad and if they went somewhere, probably go to London and he would put them up and I think dad quite liked that idea.
TG: That happened once. They made a forced landing somewhere down south and Tuesday had the money and he put the whole crew up in a hotel in London. And Pete was quite happy to participate. He put his back in to that evening I think [laughs]. Really put his back into so, and enjoyed that wouldn’t he? But having said that and between meeting him and Tuesday dying was only eleven months or so wasn’t it? So they were, they were, they were friends but they, they must have known that, well what was going through their minds having looked around you didn’t make plans for the future necessarily.
CB: No. You said he was asked to speak to Tuesday’s parents.
TG: Yes.
CB: What did he think about that?
TG: He described it as it was, didn’t he? He, he, they wanted to speak to him and he was summoned to the office. The station commander. When he returned after ten days or so. And they really wanted to talk to him about Tuesday and how he’d found him because obviously they knew or they had been told that Pete was his best friend while he was down there. I think all he could tell them was —
RG: How it was really.
TG: How it was. And when he’d last seen him and that sort of thing. He didn’t express any emotion at all.
RG: No.
TG: To me. He never expressed any emotion. He just told it how it was and that was all his experiences. The only clue you got to the effect was as we mentioned was the night.
RG: Nightmares. Yeah.
TG: The nightmares if you like to call it that. When he was flying at night. That was the only time he, you would know that there was anything amiss. That he’d been affected. He would talk about his drink. The drinking sessions and the good times. He’d talk about not being able to remember because they’d had just to blot it out. But the middle bit. The bit where it happened he, he didn’t go into any detail other than the funny bits usually. And occasionally obviously the rear gunner being hit. But he was, he was baled out twice. Wasn’t he?
CB: So why did he have to bale out of the aircraft?
TG: I think the aircraft made it back to the UK, in England both times. I think on one occasion he landed in a field and it was foggy. And I’m sure he told me that there was somebody had reported this fellow had come out of an aircraft and a police car was, was on the road and he was the other side of the hedge. And I think they thought he was a German or something to start with because he was running down this hedge side with the police opposite until they could sort of meet up and he identified himself. He did get some shrapnel in the backside once. Didn’t he?
RG: Yes. I think mum used to have it in her sewing box. I don’t know if it’s still there [laughs]
TG: It’s probably —
RG: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think it is now. Yeah. You always, when I was a kid that, ‘Oh, no. That came out of dad’s, dad’s bottom,’ like, you know [laughs]
TG: It had gone through the seat.
RG: Yeah.
TG: Wherever he was.
RG: And when he landed in the tree I think he ripped his leg. But that’s the only injury he got. Yeah.
TG: I think he landed in Norfolk on one occasion if not both. Then struggling back.
RG: The thing is though when you’re growing up you hear, and later on you hear these things and because you’re so engrossed with living —
CB: Yeah.
RG: You don’t take it on board. And then all of a sudden when you get older and you get interested in these sorts of things you think oh, I wish I’d learned more. I wish I knew more about my granddad because he was in the First World War and he, I just knew that he was a horseman but I didn’t know whether he rode a horse. I didn’t know what he did, but he was, he looked after the horse —
TG: A blacksmith.
RG: No. He wasn’t a blacksmith. He looked after the horses that pulled the big guns. You see, I didn’t know any of that.
CB: No.
RG: You know. I didn’t. I mean, ok apart from a picture at my nan’s of him in uniform I wouldn’t have thought. It wasn’t until later on that I’ve got some spoons and knives and things in there stamped with numbers. And they are my granddads and my great uncle’s that they took to the war with them.
TG: They’d be stamped and issued to them, wouldn’t they?
RG: With their, with their service numbers.
CB: No.
RG: I didn’t know. You know, I didn’t know any of that.
CB: No.
RG: And then of course when you get interested it’s too late because everybody’s gone then. Isn’t it?
TG: You see, we’d been across there a lot. Both to the Normandy and to Ypres and the Somme. I nearly lived there. Certainly, if you look behind you when you’re upstairs you’ll see books. I’ve got the 57 Squadron book. The, “57 Squadron at War,” which is very difficult to get a hold of now. I’ve got it. I’ve got it upstairs there but, when I go around to some of these places I mean I often go or used to go to Sleaford and one other, and Norfolk where they’re doing all these re-enactments and you think gosh these are really, because I’m really into these things as you probably gathered. And I start talking to these and they’re all dressed and they, when you actually talk to them they know very little. They want to get dressed up and do battle. They’ve never been to Normandy. They’ve never been to those. They don’t know about, they just want to get dressed up and look you know. They don’t get into it.
CB: They’re actors.
RG: Yes.
TG: Yes. But they’re just enthusiast who want to get dressed up and think it’s fun.
RG: I went.
TG: It annoys me. That they should go and look at those cemeteries, you know. And they’ve never been. I said, ‘What do you think to Omaha?’ ‘What are you talking about?’ ‘Omaha.’ You know. Or, or, or Tyne Cot, or Passchendaele or some of these, you know.
RG: I challenged one at Metheringham Open Day one day. He was there and he had DFC things on, you know.
TG: He was dressed up.
RG: He was an officer and he’d got the DFC. You know, the ribbons.
TG: He was a postman. He’d never been in a —
RG: I said to him, ‘Oh, you’ve got, I see you’ve got a DFC there,’ you know. He did not know what I was talking about. I said, ‘That, that ribbon there. That’s a DFC.’ ‘Is it?’
TG: Yeah.
RG: And I thought, what are we doing here? You know. Yeah.
TG: If they’re going to do that they want to know more than I do.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And my dad was there and he, you know he was reported killed, missing in action to my mum on the 18th of June 1944. Fortunately, in the same post she got a letter from him. He was in Carlisle Hospital with a great lump of shrapnel in him. At Ranville, at Ranville, just up from, from Pegasus Bridge. He’d been smashed up. But as I say after three or four months he was fit enough to go back. That’s where he got this.
RG: I don’t know.
TG: He lived ‘til he was ninety six my father. Red beret and airborne.
RG: Yeah.
TG: And all this sort of thing.
RG: Before he died it was the, was it the seventieth anniversary or something. VE. VE Day.
TG: The week before he died.
RG: Yeah.
TG: My dad was in a home here. My mum died a few years before. And he managed to reach the seventieth anniversary of D-Day.
RG: Yeah. And at the home they did a big, a big thing. It was a Care Centre there. And they did a meal and everything like that.
TG: They got him dressed up with his medals.
RG: And he went and it was, it was a good day. He wasn’t quite sure where he was.
TG: It was his last Friday or Saturday on earth.
RG: Yeah, but he, yeah it was —
TG: He died the following Thursday.
RG: But he’d got his red beret on. And he’d got his medals up and he’d got the photograph sat on his knee all day. Clutched. Of him when he was a young man.
TG: A young man in uniform.
RG: And that. Yeah.
TG: And you couldn’t get it off him.
RG: No.
TG: He had it like this.
RG: He clutched it all day.
TG: He died the following Thursday.
RG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Oh right.
TG: Two years, three ago.
RG: Yeah.
TG: Two and a half years ago now.
RG: But, you know a lot, a lot of people don’t know what you’re talking about when you say these things.
CB: They don’t. No.
RG: No.
TG: No.
RG: I mean, this film I haven’t been to see it. Terry went with some lads in the family.
TG: I went to see “Dunkirk.”
RG: Dunkirk. And I listened to a report on the radio and they, was it the radio? No. Wireless. Whatever you call it, you know. And they said that it’s been made because a lot of people don’t know what they’re talking about.
TG: They don’t know the difference between Dunkirk and D-Day.
RG: And people when they were interviewed them, and they said, ‘Do you know about Dunkirk?’ ‘No.’ You know. And I think to myself, oh dear. It is a shame.
TG: But they don’t know why they’re here.
RG: No.
TG: We, I’m ashamed to say that one of our friends we used to go to France and Germany a lot. Just jump in the car and book a ferry and go down the Moselle or whatever. Last time we went to Lille and Bruges. We ended up right on the coast at Dunkirk waiting for a ferry, I think we came back from Dunkirk.
RG: Oh, I can’t remember.
TG: But we came to the very end where there’s still some guns there. I don’t know if you’ve been on that coast. There’s still some German guns there. And Sheila, who is just a few months older than you and we’re talking Dunkirk and she said, she turned and said to me, ‘Is this where they all came up on to the beaches then? And the invasion.’ And I think, they weren’t going that way. I mean she’s seventy. I mean, I just think how can you go through life —
RG: Yeah, but don’t you think though like I’ve —
TG: Without knowing that it happened hundreds of miles away. D-Day. And they were coming — we were going up there.
RG: But I’ve grown up with Lancaster bombers. I’ve grown up with them, you know. And my girls they’ve grown up with them as well through granddad. And this is how we’ve been. And all, aircraft in the sky, ‘Oh look. There goes the Dakota,’ or whatever. I’ve grown up like that. But a lot of people just don’t know what you’re talking about. I know a few years ago I was at work and it was, it was a nice day and we were in the canteen and we’d got the windows open. And we sat there having coffee and I said, ‘Oh, listen. Oh, there goes the Lancaster.’ No one looked. They looked gone out at me as if I was speaking a foreign language. I said, ‘Listen. Can’t you hear the engines?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘It’s a bomber. It’s going over.’ ‘What are you talking about Rachel?’ I said, ‘It’s the Lancaster.’ I said, ‘It’ll be going back to Coningsby and do its circuit around the Cathedral.’ And they had no idea what I was talking about. Now, that is sad isn’t it? Yeah.
TG: The other thing your dad didn’t like to see and it must have affected him. I sometimes wonder about why he said it, is every time he saw an old airfield in Lincolnshire and he saw the control tower standing derelict he would say, ‘I wish they would pull them down.’ He said, ‘I wish they’d pull them all down.’ I think it was a reminder. He didn’t, he didn’t like to see them. Did he?
RG: No. Not derelict anyway. No.
TG: I mean, I didn’t know —
RG: He was ok at East Kirkby. You know, because it’s all been restored.
CB: It’s restored. Yeah.
RG: Yeah. But he always went to East Kirkby just for a ride. You know, ‘I’m just going to ride.’ Woodhall Spa. East Kirkby. That way on. But yeah. There we go.
CB: Just going back to the, your parents in the war people took very different views as to whether they should marry or not. So why was it that your parents married essentially in the middle of the war?
RG: Just turn that off a minute.
[recording paused]
RG: Wouldn’t like to hear that. She, you know. Why mum and dad got married in the war. I think they, you know had a good relationship. Romance blossomed and I think the idea was well, why shouldn’t we get married? You know. In those days it was the way forward regardless of how long they had got together. I don’t think that entered into it. So, yes. They, they married. Yes.
CB: And we talked about their links and because they were physically not next to each other while the flying —
RG: Yes.
CB: Was going on. So that covers that matter. Thank you.
RG: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So, Terry. On your case.
TG: My dad was in the army and he was on the beaches at D-Day and wounded just after. But they married in 1941 and my dad was on a few days leave and they had a special licence. They decided to get married on the Wednesday night and the ceremony took place at the church on the Saturday. And everything was pretty quick in those days although I was three or four years coming along and the eldest of five brothers. They caught up for it later on, didn’t they? But he survived the war. My father.
RG: And they were married for nearly seventy years.
TG: Nearly seventy years.
CB: You had a long and auspicious career in the police force and to what extent did you come across policemen who’d been in the war and did they talk about it?
TG: Well, only early on did I come across it and only for a short period because the chaps on the patrol car with me were much, much older and had served.
RG: Lofty had, hadn’t he?
TG: There was one chap who was, I remember distinctly. Never had a cigarette out of his hand. And he’d been on the Northwest Frontier, was it? As a stretcher bearer and drummer boy. And he told me a few tales.
CB: In India.
TG: Sorry? In India. Yes.
CB: In India. Yes.
TG: And his skin was still leathery. They called him Lofty. A wonderful character. But he didn’t go too much into, into his experiences and I didn’t see many others who were old enough.
RG: And Vic’s dad. Was he in the war?
TG: Yes, but he didn’t serve with —
RG: No. No.
TG: Vic’s dad. No. I met one or two people. One chap had been, he’d worked in an office in Lincoln and he was, you’d call him an insignificant little chap and he wasn’t very noisy. He kept quiet but when he spoke everybody listened because he’d been on the, in the Navy, I think the Merchant Navy and been torpedoed twice and survived. That sort of thing. I think Alf Dixon who was the office man at Spalding when I joined had been torpedoed in, in the Navy. But I was only nineteen when I joined. And I mean I had school masters who had been, all of them had been in the war. One had lost his leg. The deputy headmaster. That’s a thing.
CB: And what about the felons that you dealt with? Had any of those been guided by the forces originally?
TG: No. No. They, young as I was most of them and they just jumped on to the one side of the fence while I’d fallen on the other at the time. I was on the law enforcement side. But no it didn’t.
CB: So, going back to the war itself you talked about the experience of one of the crewmen and being [pause] we were talking about, touching on LMF.
TG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So, what was that dimension as far as Pete was concerned? What his knowledge.
TG: The man was out of control. He said he was. He just had him, you know he was shell shocked was probably —
RG: Flak happy.
TG: Flak happy was, was the word. He’d gone flak happy. Completely flak happy and gone berserk on the aircraft. Endangering it. As I said, Pete said he hit him with a ammo box and knocked him out. And then he was charged. Probably court martialled. I don’t know for LMF. In these days you’d have probably got a handsome sum in compensation for all the stress he’d been put through. But that’s as far as it went. I don’t think Pete came across it. Or if he did he didn’t mention anything about that at all. Even if he was stressed. I mean obviously what he said they were terribly stressed. You wouldn’t go out and get blind drunk to forget what you’d just seen, done and been through like they did. It was the only release they had. The only release. They above all went from relative safety to the most terrible danger in a very short time. Whereas no other arm, arm of the armed forces experienced that, did they? They were, either they were out there fighting at a fairly consistent level, I know it went up and down but the bomber crews and I suppose the fighter pilots as well went from sitting at home in a pub in England or with a girlfriend and hours later being subject to the most horrendous barrage and being attacked from above and below. And it was a huge contrast for them.
RG: And the frequency of the flying and the raids. If you look at dad’s logbook it sort of says you know, he’s made up the logbook and its flying such and such and where they’ve gone. Good long way away. Then they’re back. And then it’s not five minutes or so before they’re off again, you know. And they would be going at 9 o’clock and 10 o’clock at night. Flying. Night flying. Coming back. Then afternoons. And there wasn’t a good long rest period in the middle so they, they would be tired out, you know. Head wise as well as body. Physical. Yeah.
TG: Sometimes a crew would be lost and of course their uniforms would, and everything they’d left in their billet was moved and their beds made up for the next crew to replace them. The next crew would come. And then before they went to bed they’d probably gone on a raid and be lost and they’d never use the beds that were made up for them. I mean. As you know. This was the —
RG: I don’t think modern society can understand what a lot of they had to put up with that and go through really. I know there’s different things. Different aspects now. But they just had to get on with it in those days. Well, from what I can understand.
CB: You touched on a point indirectly which is that the socialising of the crew and in this particular case Tuesday’s crew was mixed airmen of sergeants and officers.
TG: And, and —
CB: So, how did that work?
TG: There was I think there was pretty well classless. I think those, those divisions were not, Peter never, Pete never mentioned anything of that nature. The only thing he objected to was when they were marched off at gunpoint by the Americans at this base and they were all put in the sergeant’s mess when he said he should have been in the officer’s mess. But they were questioned and all sorts. That’s the only time he ever, but I think he had taken umbridge at the Americans attitude rather than anything else because Pete had no thoughts for what anybody’s background was. He’d treat everybody the same.
RG: No. Absolutely.
TG: Whether he was a prince or a pauper. Quite literally. And he spoke to all people from all of those classes and you could be with him and he could hold a conversation with anybody from any background but he never ever —
RG: Never judged anybody.
TG: He never judged anybody.
RG: No.
TG: And he never sort of said, ‘I’ve got the DFC,’ and everything. He never got, it never got entered into conversation.
RG: He was just a nice chap.
TG: He was just a nice sociable chap who liked a pint after a hard days work at the nursery. And sometimes in later life he’d go down to the Mail Cart on the bus wouldn’t he because of the road safety. But one of the funny things I’ll tell you about Pete when I was first was going out with Rachel. I think I was first married.
RG: I think we were married.
TG: I think we were married. And Pete and your, and Harold.
RG: And his friend George Samsby.
TG: And George Samsby.
RG: And some, one other.
TG: They were a right drinking group.
RG: Oh dear.
TG: And they all used to go to the Dun Cow at Cowbit. Now, me and my mate who was quite a lot older than me were in a patrol car one night and it was about one in the morning coming back into Spalding along Cowbit Bank. And I could see some of the cars outside the well-lit pub because closing time was about ten thirty and this was 1am. The lights are still on. There were a few cars outside amongst which was your dad’s.
RG: Harold’s.
TG: Your brother in law’s and George Samsby’s and my co-driver, he said, ‘Look at that pub. Let’s go and raid it.’ I, I was appalled that these, you know, he says, ‘They’re all drinking.’ So I said, ‘I’m sorry, Brian. I can’t Brian, I can’t.’ He said, ‘Why not?’ I said, ‘Because I’m at court in the morning. If I get tied up with that lot I’m going to be here ‘til 4 or 5 o’clock.’ I didn’t mention whose cars they were because I could see it in the paper that, “PC arrests whole family illegally drinking.”
RG: Oh dear [laughs]
TG: Dear me. In the local pub. And I could imagine quite a rift, you know and I’d have to go and give evidence against him and then bail him out.
RG: Oh dear.
TG: But he was wonderful company. He was wonderful. He were wonderful company your dad was. Wasn’t he? He was. He used to work like anything. But when they used to be at Maxey they used to get an allowance to cut the grass at the Royal Observer Corps Post. To pay somebody to do it. Well, they didn’t. They kept the money and cut it themselves. So every year they had a right old booze up and a dinner to which we went with the money for the grass cutting. Resourceful to the last. Wasn’t he? Yes.
RG: He used to have these, you know exercises and they’d you know pretend that there was going to be a —
TG: Nuclear war.
RG: Nuclear war, you know. And away dad would go there. And the first thing that went down into the post as they called it was the beer laughs] It went down, you know. The beer.
TG: That was because they were underground weren’t they?
RG: Yeah.
CB: They wouldn’t want to get it contaminated by radiation would they?
RG: Absolutely not.
TG: It didn’t matter about anything else but they’d be locked down there for a few days, wouldn’t they?
RG: Yes.
TG: With the luncheon, didn’t they? The luncheon meat and —
RG: I felt as though I knew everything about the Royal Observer Corps.
CB: What would you think Pete would have said was his most memorable experience in the war?
RG: Golly. That is a question. In the war.
TG: Well, only the things that he’d mentioned really because he didn’t go into that much detail. He mentioned the Scharnhorst thing because they lost those aircraft and they put it out of action for about a month. The loss of his crew, and those things we’ve already highlighted.
RG: I think he would probably have said it would be his mother in law’s cooked breakfast because when he was at home on leave nan, my nan would always make sure that he got the eggs and he got the bacon and had a good, you know a good breakfast. But I can’t think of anything on the raid side or operations that dad would talk about more than another.
TG: He just, he just did it.
RG: Yeah. I think the loss of his crew. He talked about that a bit but, yeah. No.
TG: It was a, it was a period in his life that —
RG: He just did.
TG: They did. And when it was over he wanted to put it behind him.
CB: Yes.
TG: And what he did subsequently was in complete and utter contrast. Wasn’t it? Growing plants and, and selling them. It wasn’t a noisy machine driven —
CB: Destructive force.
TG: Destructive force. It was a constructive effort.
RG: But all his hobbies and things were RAF connected. Yeah.
TG: They —
RG: Yeah. He had a great love of flying and things.
TG: He liked, liked flying. As I say. The Holbeach Club and his wireless op. His amateur radio and obviously the ROC, RAFA and all this sort of thing.
RG: My sister. My younger sister. She —
TG: There are three of them.
RG: Three of us.
TG: We’ll not mention Jane.
RG: Jane. She lived in Bath and she’d just bought this house and they were having it converted. Fantastic place it was and she wanted dad to see it. Now, dad was a very, very sick man and she wanted us to go. And I said, ‘Dad won’t survive a road trip or a train trip.’
TG: He had a heart attack when he was about seventy eight, so.
RG: Yeah. I said, ‘Dad won’t survive that, Jane. It’ll just absolutely knock him out.’ So she chartered a helicopter to come and fetch us.
TG: [unclear] anyway.
RG: Yeah. But dad was absolutely in his element. He, we set of from Fenland Airfield. Right. You know. Little Fen.
TG: In this helicopter.
RG: All his mates were watching him and this chappy in the uniform and off we went.
TG: To Bath.
RG: Terry and I went to Bath.
TG: With your dad.
RG: Yeah. With dad. And dad sat in the front like this. And as we got, we went over where Prince Charles lives. Highgrove, and that. And when we got —
TG: Highgrove. Yes.
RG: When we got near somewhere or other there was two Hercules in the sky. Now, helicopters fly quite low.
TG: It was over the —
CB: This is Lyneham.
TG: No.
RG: No.
TG: No. The one that was closest.
RG: No.
TG: Fairford.
RG: Where the —
TG: Fairford. It was closed at the time.
CB: Because —
RG: Yeah. Because they were converting for the —
CB: Americans. Yes.
RG: Yeah. Two helicopters, two Hercules were coming like this and we’d got, we were all sat in the back. Got these headsets on and I said, ‘Oh, oh look at those Hercules across there. Look at those.’ You know. We were coming like this. These two Hercules were coming like that. And I thought to myself I don’t know but we’re just a little bit too close to those. So I said to the pilot about these. I said, ‘Oh they’re a bit close to us, aren’t they?’ He went, ‘Silence in the cabin.’ Closed me. So then he kept saying to the radar people and whatever.
CB: Control room. Yes.
RG: Yeah. Control room. He kept saying such and such, ‘This is Echo Tango Lima 546,’ or whatever we were, ‘We are a Jet Ranger. We have five people on board. We are flying from Fenland Airfield in Lincolnshire to a private landing spot in Bath. We are a Jet Ranger. We have five — ’ And I kept thinking and I kept thinking, I kept thinking you keep telling them. And he kept saying it, repeating and the control place said you are de, de, de, der like this. And he kept saying and, ‘Yes. We are a Jet Ranger.’ And he kept repeating it. ‘We are a Jet Ranger.’ And then the call sign like that. I thought, yes you tell them who we are because when we hit there’s not going to be anything left of our Jet Ranger. And then all of a sudden this voice said whatever the call sign. ‘You are a Jet Ranger. You are flying — ’ you know repeated everything. He said, ‘Yes. We are.’ And the next minute our little helicopter, well it wasn’t a little one, we went down like this. We went right down like that. I thought I don’t like this, we’re going down, and these Hercules literally went over the top. And when we got calmed down the captain said, ‘Phew.’ And what it was the call sign of us was very similar to one of those Hercules and they’d got us muddled up.
CB: Oh.
RG: But do you know dad sat in the front and dad said something, ‘Well, Skip. That was a good, good shout.’ Or something like that.
TG: Good show.
RG: Good show. Yeah. And the fella said, ‘I bet you’ve had more experiences than that one.’ And dad said, ‘Yeah. But not as exciting,’ or something like that. But oh dear. But, yeah.
CB: Crikey.
RG: Dad was laid up for quite a few weeks after that one. Oh, you haven’t been recording me have you?
[recording paused]
RG: And he obviously had —
CB: So Terry I just want to go back to what talked about the parents of Tuesday coming down to see Pete. What do you think they were looking for?
TG: Well, Durham is a couple of hundred miles away from East Kirkby at least. And travel wouldn’t be very easy at that time. And they were there waiting for Peter when he returned from his, his short period of rest. Expressly having requested to see him. And there must have been a terrible gap in their yearning to find out more about their son in his last days and to speak to his closest friend of that time. His drinking mate. His flying mate. And Pete was able to fill them in. How they were. What his attitude was. What his spirits were like. Right up until the last time he saw him which was obviously some time after his own parents. The fact that they went out to dinner with Pete when they were down there, the fact that the station commander had accepted them on to the base because it wouldn’t be easy for civilians to get on there at that time must have been a great —
RG: And the five pounds.
TG: Must have been a great comfort to them. And having then travelled home. Probably having had to stay down in Lincolnshire for a day or two. To post him the five pounds in recognition of both the comfort he’d brought to them and also for his recent commission, Pete’s commission, clearly shows to me that the effort that they put in the, that it’s the terrible desire to fill in the gaps in their son’s life as much as they could was for closure.
RG: And dad had done it.
TG: And Pete had fulfilled that and filled that gap as much as he possibly could. He brought them closure. And hopefully they went away, well clearly were much happier than they had have been. But to have lost him without any of this detail would have, they would have always wondered. And it wouldn’t have been an easy journey for them to make because they didn’t know what they were going to hear really.
[recording paused]
CB: So what did he particularly appreciate when he was on his trips?
TG: Coming home. He said, he said that often coming home particularly coming home they’d waste a huge amount of ammunition shooting at the Morning or the Evening Star. Whichever time of day Venus was up. When they were very tense and they thought maybe there were fighters waiting for them to land. But one of the loveliest sights he said was the landscape below. England was always greener and he knew he was in England just from the colour, the density of the green rather than on the continent. He didn’t look out for the Cathedral as, as a lot of crews did. Boston Stump was the, was, was more visible than the Cathedral when they came home.
CB: The Lincoln Cathedral.
TG: Than Lincoln Cathedral. But he particularly loved the greenery. That’s more than anything else he loved to see the green green grass of home as they say. And it was greener than over the water.
CB: Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: I want to take you both together.
RG: Oh dear.
CB: And where shall we do it because it’s nice here. Or we can for it outside?
TG: You can do it outside. Or wherever you like.
RG: Yeah. Do it where you like.
CB: Well, we just have the picture with you.
RG: Yeah.
CB: Just hold it between you. It’ll be nice to do it outside wouldn’t it?
RG: I’ll put a bit of lipstick on I think.
TG: She’s got to do her hair.
CB: That’s good. Let me in the meantime just write my email address on there.
TG: I’ll try and send you three and four at a time. Or whatever.
CB: Whatever. Yeah.
TG: Yeah. I’ll just get my shoes on.
CB: Ok.
[pause]
RG: Yes. It would be quite appropriate to be in our garden.
CB: Well, I think so.
RG: Dad and I spent an awful lot of time on it.
CB: Did you? Yes. I think it looks super. Well, I’m looking to move. To downsize my house.
RG: Oh yes. I don’t —
CB: Thank you.
RG: What was I going to say? I think we ought to downsize.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Rachel and John Gill
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGillRA-JT170930
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:38:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Hazeldene joined the RAF from Wales when he saw a poster to see the world from a different perspective. He trained as a wireless operator and during training suspected a couple of incidents of sabotage on the base. Peter was posted to 106 Squadron at RAF Finningley. On a mining operation they were hit by anti-aircraft fire. It was only when they returned to base they realised the rear gunner was dead and his turret was awash with blood. On another occasion the flight engineer apparently went berserk and Peter had to subdue him by hitting him with an ammunition box. After his first tour of operations Peter was seconded to the Americans at Polebrook as an instructor. He then was posted to RAF East Kirkby with 57 Squadron. While he was on leave he returned to find his crew were dead or missing. The parents of his pilot travelled to East Kirkby to meet him and come to terms with the death of their son. He started a third tour at RAF Syerston and completed several operations before the war ended. After the stress of operations Peter suffered terrible flashbacks and nightmares for the rest of his life.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
106 Squadron
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-17
bale out
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
final resting place
Gneisenau
H2S
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
heirloom
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
mine laying
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Cranwell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Finningley
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Metheringham
RAF Polebrook
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF West Freugh
RAF Wigsley
Royal Observer Corps
Scharnhorst
Stirling
take-off crash
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
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81323cdafc31bb66e836e5b0ba2201ff
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/751/10750/ACookJH170118.2.mp3
85280a29406287aa006ef455c66449b1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cook, Joseph Henry
J H Cook
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer (1925 - 2018, 1894875 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a n air gunner with 630 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Joseph Cook and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cook, JH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: We’re on. Ok. This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Joe Cook today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Joe’s home in Kent and it’s Wednesday 18th of January 2017. Thank you, Joe for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview are Vi Jarmin, Joe’s partner. Joe’s daughter Beverley Maltby and her husband Michael. So Joe, thanks very much for talking to us today. Perhaps you could start by telling us about your early life and where and when you were born and your family background.
JC: Very, very simple. I was born in Sidcup in Kent on the 2nd of June 1925. I’m, I’m living with my grandparents for a little while and my mother and father and then we moved. And we moved to Brockley and more or less orientated around Brockley. My early life. I went to school at Blackfen. And then of course I went to the, what do they call it? Basic school. Elementary school. And, and then I got a scholarship for going to Brockley Central School. Brockley Central School was a marvellous school because we took the Oxford General School Certificate and we took the London Chamber of Commerce Certificate of which I’m proud to say I got the Oxford Certificate and I got the forces of it with the London Chamber of Commerce with a Book Keeping Distinction. That was my basic education. Because of the background I was able to go straight into a job. And I went to, oh [pause] I went in to a solicitors I think it was. Something like that. I was only there a couple of days and it fizzled out. Something went wrong. I then ended up in Twentieth Century Fox Films. I found my own job because it paid twice the money that the others did. So, at Twentieth Century Fox Films I was working in the assistant, whatever, I forget what they call it now. Anyway, it was logging films and how much they would produce and etcetera. I was there until I went in the services. I met my first wife, my wife there and we were married obviously in 1945. I wouldn’t marry her until I finished flying because I said, ‘You can’t get married to a cinder.’ Because all aircrew got terribly burned. So therefore I married in 1945. 20th of October. And I produced eventually [laughs] a long time my daughter who is over there. And that is all I’ve produced because my wife had trouble with TB etcetera. So I wouldn’t let her have another child. My fault. I wouldn’t let her have another child. And I was married for forty six years. My partner over there God bless her heart. I’ve been with her for twenty five years. I’m sorry. And I’m still with her.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Joe. You were working at Twentieth Century Fox after leaving school. So how did you come to join the RAF and when was that?
JC: Well, after leaving school I was conned into the war because I was a fire watcher etcetera. And every night I had to sit up all night fire watching. And then, and what did I do then? How did I, you said how did I come to get in the Air Force? Well, it’s quite simple really. I didn’t want to go in the Army. Quite simple. But I always fancied flying. I wanted to fly. But I, at that time there was no vehicle to take me flying so I joined the RAF. Now, I had to volunteer for aircrew. As you know they were all volunteers. I volunteered and they accepted me straightaway because of my education. And I had no problem with that. My three days medical at Euston House went through ok. Fine. No problem. So there I am. I am sent to St John’s Wood, in the recently completed flats as, as a base. And I did my three weeks square bashing and knocking me into making me. They knocked you down so that you [pause] sort of thing was you’d clean your shoes. By the way aircrew always wore shoes. You’d clean your shoes and they were, oh you know you’d bone them and all the rest of it. And then the corporal would come in in the morning and inspect. ‘They’re bloody filthy your shoes. Get them cleaned.’ They, it was there to break you. Right. Then you want me to carry on now? From St John’s Wood I went up to Bridgnorth. Initial training. Which was square bashing and all sorts of funny things. From Bridgnorth I went to Bridlington where I did such things as Morse Code. I had to send and receive Morse Code at ten words a minute. Then Bridlington was a learning base for the, as I said Morse Code and other attributes for the Air Force. I then went from Bridlington. Remember that? Where did I go from Bridlington? Oh, I know. Bridgnorth. Not Bridgnorth. I can’t quite get it.
CJ: Was it Evanton?
JC: Huh?
CJ: Evanton in Scotland. Was that it?
JC: No. No. I went to Scotland for my AGS. I’m just trying to think where I went.
[recording paused]
CJ: So you did your basic training in Bridgnorth, Joe.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: And then Bridlington.
JC: Yes.
CJ: So, how did the training go from there and how were you picked for a particular role?
JC: Well, I wasn’t, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. But what I wanted to do was kick Jerry up the rear. And the only way to do it was get in the Air Force and get flying. Well, as I say I went to 8 AGS near Evanton. I was trained as an AG. I was flying in Ansons and then, I always remember flying in the Anson. The first flight I ever made they lined us up. Sprogs. Right. There’s a few of us. Eight of us, I think. We were going to fly that morning. ‘Right. You. You. You and you,’ and then it came, ‘You.’ Me. They gave me a handle. And I looked at it and I said, ‘What’s it?’ He said, ‘Up on the wing.’ I had to get up on the wing. Put this handle in the socket and turn it around to start the engine [laughs] Oh dear. And of course once you got one going on an Anson you can get the other one going. But I was sliding about on the wing because it was frosty that morning. You know what Scotland’s like early morning.
CJ: So how did you come to be selected as an air gunner rather than any other role?
JC: Ah. That was at Euston House.
CJ: Ok.
JC: You were in front of a load of gold braid and he, he said to me, ‘Right. We’ve assessed you. You’ve got everything. We have decided that you will be pilot, navigator or bomb aimer.’ And I said to him, ‘I don’t want it.’ He looked at me. He said, ‘What?’ I said, ‘I don’t want it. I want to kick Jerry up the rear,’ as I said. So, he said, ‘Well, we’re losing so many AGs.’ I said, ‘I’ll have it.’ So that’s how I became an air gunner. I had all the qualifications to be a pilot but I didn’t want it. And I said, ‘It will take at least nearly a year to train me as a pilot. It’s too late. The war will be over.’ That was the reason. And he looked at me, the groupie and he said, ‘You silly little sod,’ because at that rate they were losing them, losing them so rapid. Anyway, I decided that I would do that.
CJ: So you were training on Ansons in Scotland. And how long was the training for?
JC: Oh. I got up there in [pause] oh around about Christmas time. And then I was trained at D-Day. Now, I’ve got a little story I can tell you about that. I got my AG brevet. Very proud of it. Parade. Get your brevet. And then we were posted to Operational Training Unit, Silverstone. We got on the train but we didn’t go to Silverstone. The bloody thing kept, sorry it kept going and going and we ended up at Tarrant Rushton in Devon. When we got there they said, ‘You are not allowed to go outside the camp. You are confined to camp. You cannot write any letters. You cannot use the telephone. You cannot do anything.’ Everything hush hush. Of course, we didn’t know. We didn’t realise what was going on. They didn’t tell you, did they? They didn’t tell you anything. Why I was sitting on the train suddenly, oh stay on the train because you’re carrying on. And so therefore what we didn’t know was this, that it was about oh a few days, quite a few days before D-Day. Why were we sent to Tarrant Rushton? It was quite simple. This. They gathered together all the people who had just been, got their wings. Pilots and all the rest of it and they’d sent us to Tarrant Rushton and they sent us to fly clapped out bloody Stirlings. And they were clapped. And when we got there we said, ‘What’s all this? Why are we doing this?’ They said, ‘You’ll find out.’ Wouldn’t say a thing. They found, we found out alright because we had to load these Stirlings up with leaflets. Fly over to Calais. Drop them on Calais and Boulogne etcetera and we were chucking these bales of leaflets out and one bloke said to me, ‘What’s all this about? What are these leaflets saying?’ He said, ‘It’s in French.’ I said, ‘That’s alright. I’ll read it to you.’ And what it was saying, “Get out of Calais. Get out of Boulogne because we are invading and we are going to bomb like hell.” So please, Froggies get out. ‘Get out of Calais,’ etcetera. That’s what it was all about because you know as well as I do it was a spoof. Well, we were chucking these leaflets out and it counted as an op because we were going over, over enemy territory really. That was the first four. And chucking these leaflets out and on the way back of course this bloody old Stirling packed up. One engine packed up. And then we thought well blow this. Nursed it back over the peninsula. The Devon Peninsula. And then another one went. And on a Stirling no chance. Got to get out of it. Got to jump. Which I had to do. So I jumped out of it and come down on a tree. With a Land Girl with a pitch fork at the base of the tree to ram it in me. Wouldn’t believe that I was English. Got the, they sent, a lorry came around and there was the rest of the bods in it. And they took us to the farmhouse and obviously then to the station. But that, that was my initiation. That’s what D-Day was to me. Dropping leaflets for four days on Calais, Boulogne, Liege etcetera. So I had only just been trained. And it was so daft that when D-Day had been going for about a week or two we were posted and we were posted to the Operational Training Unit to be trained [laughs] You know. And went there and went on to Wellingtons. The old Wimpy. God bless her. And I did my training on that. We did cross countries. We did ten hour trips. Not ten hour trips. Eight hour trips etcetera. And I finished my OTU and how did we get crewed up? Easy. Big hangar. Type 2 hangar. Right. A hundred engineers. A hundred AGs, a hundred pilots all in this hangar and then the group captain gets up, gives a little speech and then says, ‘Right. Form yourselves into crews.’ He said, ‘Mingle amongst each other, walk around, pick who you think would be a good one.’ So I, I had a friend with me and I said to him, ‘It seems to me that the tall ones, the pilots, are bloody good. They seem to survive.’ So we looked for a tall pilot. And it happened to be a Canadian. And Mac, so we looked up at him and said, ‘Oi. You got two gunners?’ So he said, ‘No.’ ‘Do you want two?’ He said, ‘How good are you?’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘I got eighty four percent on my passing out.’ He said, ‘Oh. I’ll have you.’ So, that’s how it was done. In this big hangar. Then you walked out of there and you were a crew and you were brothers together and just went through it all. You were so close. I can’t explain it. Closer than brothers. The sort of thing was we were booked for ops and then all of a sudden our engineer went sick and he went, turned around to the flight commander and said, ‘I’m not flying.’ He said, ‘No?’ ‘No. Mitch has gone sick. Won’t fly without him.’ ‘Oh. Alright,’ He said, ‘We’ll put a spare crew on.’ That’s how it was.
[recording paused]
CJ: So Joe, you tell me how you were all in a hangar together and sorted yourselves out as a six man crew. So where did you go from there?
JC: Well, this was done at Silverstone. Silverstone in [pause] where was it? I’ve forgotten the name of the county. Anyway, it was at Silverstone. The race track then as it was. And we were flying Wellingtons. As I said a six man crew because it didn’t have a mid-upper turret so you just, you carried the other bloke but you were the one in the turret. Then we, we did all the usual things. Training. Long trips. High level bombing. Gunnery. Etcetera etcetera. And finally you were posted to a squadron and — no. Sorry. Missed a bit. From Silverstone you went to Wigsley. Wigsley was a Conversion Unit. You went from two engines to four. To Wigsley, flying Stirlings. I hate the things. And then from Wigsley you went to a Lancaster Finishing School. And then and at that point we knew we were going on Lancasters. We dreaded the thought of going on Stirlings or Halifax. Halifaxes. So we went to Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School at Syerston. All around Lincolnshire. And then from there we were posted to the squadron. And that’s when I went to East Kirkby. I did all my operations, well twenty six of them. I think, I don’t know. I think it was twenty six from East Kirkby. But I’d already done four from Tarrant Rushton so I’d done my thirty. We were now a fully-fledged crew on a squadron. And on my first trip we’re getting on to this are we? My first trip was the Dortmund Ems Canal. The dear old Dortmund Ems Canal. We used to come up time and time. As fast as they built it up we knocked it down. That was my first trip. You’ll find it in my diary that I wrote. Every time I came back from a trip I sat with pen and ink. Where is it? I sat with pen and ink and wrote down how I felt and all the rest of it. I can’t see it. Oh.
[pause]
JC: There it is. One diary. Now, there’s I’ve lost the other book so there’s only twenty trips in here. I don’t know where it went to. It’s the last one. Last twenty. As I said, Dortmund Ems Canal was five and a half hours. “I felt nervous but got on ok. Saw a Lanc go down and burst into flames in the ground. We did not get coned by tracer or searchlights. I felt pretty fatigued when we got back.” Now, I won’t go right through this because there is too much of it. Now, people say to me, ‘What were the fascinating ones that I did?’ Well, there weren’t really. There was only one target that I personally thought I’d got my lot and that was Politz. Now, Politz is an oil manufacturing conversion place near the Russian border. I went to Politz twice. The second time, and it was a long trip. Ten hours. The second time on the run up to bomb we were running up, steady, steady and all the rest of it and all of a sudden out, a bloody ME Messerschmitt 262 jet came for us and he was putting shells through the top of my turret. He didn’t, he missed us because I had already given Mac evasive action. And as you probably know once you’re attacked the tail gunner takes control of the aircraft and he has to do what he was told. And I gave him a corkscrew and we were lucky there. He went over the top. I’m watching this bloke and it was fifty nine degrees below zero that night. So I’m watching him and let him come in and then I went to open fire and all my four guns were frozen. The oil on the breech blocks, very thin bit of oil had frozen and not one breech block went forward so the guns didn’t fire. And I yelled out to Mac, I said, ‘I can’t fire. I can’t fire. The gun’s useless.’ And he said, ‘Oh. Oh. What’s he doing?’ I said, ‘He’s wheeling around. Wheeling around. He’s coming in for the kill now because he knows that we’re defenceless. My turret has no defensive fire.’ So, I said, ‘That’s it.’ And Mac said, ‘Right. Prepare to abandon aircraft.’ I can remember his words today. So I went to open my turret doors and they’d jammed. I thought. That’s it. This is it. I’m stuck in here. I’ve got an ME262 wheeling around, coming in for the kill. It’s my lot. This is death. This is what death is all about. And then all of a sudden there was a bloody great explosion. We were splattered with bits. What had happened the rear gunner and I didn’t even know the Lanc was there. He got him in his fuel tanks and up he went. And we were splattered with debris. And I yelled out to Mac, ‘Enemy aircraft destroyed. Enemy aircraft destroyed.’ These are my actual words because I can remember them as if it was yesterday. And he said. ‘Right. Resume stations.’ Thank Christ for that otherwise I’d still be up there. And that’s my worst trip. Politz. I had others. Now, in, in here you will see that Heimbach Dam. Even, we went to a dam to blow it up which we were a success at blowing up. In my diary I say, “ME109 sighted just before target. Focke Wulf 190 passed underneath at two hundred feet. Attacked another aircraft to starboard.” Then as we, once again we used bombs on this. Not the bouncing bomb. Heimbach Dam. We ran up to the dam and there was a bloke, well a kite further down. We were on the run up. And they’d got two blooming great guns on the ramparts and they were pointing at a set point of our, where would go in for a run up. So that bloke I said was ahead of us. They got him. Blew him to bits. I thought ooh. But they couldn’t reload the guns quick enough because they were a heavy gun. We went over the top. We dropped our bombs and I saw the dam go. I saw it break and go. We, we got a direct hit fortunately and it was well worth it to see that dam go. But then people would say, ‘Oh, you were a Dambuster.’ No. I was not. I was not a Dambuster. Yes, I went and blew a dam up yeah but that doesn’t make me a Dambuster. When you think of a Dambuster you think of 617 squadron and nothing else.
CJ: So what was it like on the station for — perhaps you can take us through when you knew when you were going on ops. What was the atmosphere like? And what sort of preparation did you do before you went out on a trip?
JC: Before you went out on a trip if you were billed for ops that night then you went to the crew room and your flight commander of each section like gunnery, like engineering, like w/ops etcetera. You were all [pause] what’s the word? You were, you were given all the, all the gen and all the griff and the big map on the wall and that was the first time that you knew where you were going. There’s a sequel to that because we never knew where we were going. Blooming ground staff did. Because we used to go up to the ground staff and say, ‘Oi. What’s the petrol load?’ And he’d turn around and he’d say, ‘Sixteen eighty.’ Oh, got a short trip tonight. Oh, lovely. But if he turned around and he said, ‘Twenty one fifty four.’ That’s two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons of fuel. That is a long trip. You’re going to be up there just over ten hours. And in the cold, I mean I below zero all the time virtually. Thirty below zero. But you wore an electrically heated suit. The trouble was typical of a lot of equipment your right hand would burn, your left hand would freeze. Your right foot would be [laughs] the same conditions sort of thing. And in the end you used to switch if off. But you had another suit under it. And under that you had silk underwear etcetera. And a naval white sweater. So it was just about tolerable. I never got frostbite fortunately but I had five pairs of gloves on. You’d wonder how I pulled the triggers but I did. It was the cold that used to get you. Now, when you look at the turret the one I used to fly in anyway, you will see that all the Perspex has been taken out. There’s nothing there. It’s to open air. Completely. Now, why did we do that? Simple. If you got a tiny mark on that Perspex, just a little mark or whatever you’d be there. So took all the Perspex out for clear vision and you were to open air.
CJ: And this was the mid-upper turret you were in.
JC: No. The rear gunner.
CJ: The rear. I beg your pardon.
JC: I had four Browning machine guns. Just to sequel that I had four Browning machine guns. I had five thousand rounds per gun. I had twenty thousand rounds of ammunition and I could only fire a few seconds. Otherwise they get red hot.
CJ: So you were saying about the briefings and when the curtain was pulled back —
JC: Yeah.
CJ: You knew where you were going.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: Do I assume that some places were considered easier targets than others?
JC: Oh yes. Yeah. Because you sort of think the tape, the red tape would be going across the map and it would end at Chemnitz. And you’d hear the blokes go ahh. Or Berlin again. Because this friend of mine, Johnny Chatterton, he went to Berlin so many times that they gave him a season ticket. Oh dear.
CJ: So that, are there any other notable raids that you remember? Any notable trips?
JC: Any notable trips?
CJ: Trips that you went on that stood out there.
JC: Yes. There’s another one in here. I went to Rositz. Synthetic oil. I went to Politz. I went to a lot of them. Now, at Politz where I nearly copped my lot and I really did. Now, I’m saying there if I may just briefly read this, “Target Politz oil installation. Flak fairly heavy. Red cannon fire continuous over Sweden. Searchlights. Some in target area and over Denmark. Fighters. Two JU88s seen over target. JU88 shot down and destroyed by us.” What really happened was that the JU88, he came up and I said to the skipper, ‘Whatever he does, you do.’ And if he, in other words if he dives you dive with him and keep him in the sights all the time. So mid-upper gunner and myself I raked the canopy. Killed the crew instantly. And that was it. Down she went.
CJ: Ok.
JC: That was a JU88, and that was at Politz.
CJ: So then you, you said you finished your thirtieth op with that squadron because you’d already done four before.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: So, how did it feel when you’d all done your thirtieth?
JC: Well, I can’t explain it because you see we were so used to expecting to die. You didn’t expect to come back. You didn’t expect to do thirty. You were elated. Yeah. Obviously you went in the mess and got a few sherbets down [laughs] Oh, what was I going to say? [pause] There’s little incidents that happened all the time. Such as crew bus. Two crews in the bus. The old crew bus. And it just started going around the perimeter track and one crew their bomb aimer more or less, I don’t know what he was doing. Ah. So he ran after the bus and tried to jump on it. He didn’t. He missed. Cracked his skull. That was it. And of course you’d the sequel of the egg. You know about the egg. Of course you do. When you came back from an op you got an egg. You didn’t get bacon. You got an egg. And it was looked forward to. ‘Cor, crikey I’ve got an egg tonight [laughs] you know, when you got back. But the jokey, jokey thing is that this actually happened. The bloke next to you and he says, ‘Eh mate,’ he said, ‘If you don’t get back tonight can I have your egg?’ And then another thing that happened which aircrew were very boisterous. One bloke went round the back of the servery and he pulled the string of the WAAF’s overall. Well, it was so hot in the mess the overall opened, didn’t it? And she’s leaning forward putting an egg with a slice. You can imagine can’t you. Plop. Now, the other thing concerning WAAFs was we were always playing tricks. One bloke had the brilliant idea he got a bit of wood square and in every hut there was an iron, oh what do you call it? Fire.
CJ: Stove.
JC: Stove. Yeah. So what does he do? He climbs up on to the roof. It was a flat roof for the WAAF quarters. He climbs up on the roof. He gets this bit of wood and puts it on the chimney and holds it down. Then he [laughs] after a few minutes the doors fly open and all the WAAFs come charging out in their underwear. And it was, it was funny you know because they’d got their civvy underwear on.
CJ: How did you feel Joe when you had, when you came back and there were empty tables?
JC: Well —
BM: He didn’t think about it.
JC: I didn’t think about it. I’ll give you an instance of it. Two crews to a hut virtually. Then two crews to a hut. You come back after an op. You’re dead tired. You’d had your egg. You’d gone up the road to the hut, get in the hut, get in the pit as we used to call bed and put your head down and you’d sleep. And then all of a sudden there’s a noise. Clank bang bang bong. You put your head up and there’s a whole bunch of SPs. You could always tell because of the arm bands. You’d look up and you’d say, ‘What the bloody hell are you doing?’ ‘Oh, won’t be long. Won’t be long, chiefy.’ That’s what a flight sergeant was called. ‘Won’t be long chiefy. Just taking the other crew’s gear out.’ This is 3 o’clock in the morning. ‘Well, what’s happened?’ ‘Oh. Well, they got the chop last night.’ Put your head down and go to sleep again.
CJ: So, you finished your thirty ops. And what did you do after that? After you’d over your sherbets.
JC: Well, I wanted a job obviously. I applied to Cossor to Lissen, all, all the old radio manufacturers because of, that’s another thing you didn’t know. I was a radio amateur as well and I had a radio amateur’s licence. So I applied and I thought I’d be in there. Didn’t want to know. ‘Sorry. Can’t give you the job.’ Well, what’s wrong?’ You know, ‘I’ve got City and Guilds in radio.’ ‘What’s — ’ ‘Sorry can’t give you. The reason being. You’re ex-aircrew.’ That was the reason. You were a bloody pariah. You’d been killing people sort of thing. Of course, they’d been over here killing us. I mean I used to say to them, ‘Exeter, Plymouth, Hull,’ etcetera. Shall I go on?’ But of course that [pause] funny us English.
CJ: So after your thirty ops you were demobbed then, were you?
JC: Yeah. Yeah.
CJ: Ok. And then you were looking for a job.
JC: Yeah. And I couldn’t get one. So there was, friends of mine had come out of the Army. A couple of them. They were in to radio and whatnot and we discovered that radiograms as we used to call them or if you could get a radiogram so we said there’s a market here. We’re in. What we did we got hold of all the old turntables. Plenty of them about. And then we built the radio part and the amplifier and we had, knew a bloke who made cabinets. So wooden cabinets to house the radiogram and we were making a damned good business out of it. And then what happened then? Oh yeah. [pause] Because of the radio business a firm down in Barking, Essex they’d heard of me because a, once again a friend of a friend and they said, ‘Well, would you come and set up our radio equipment?’ Which I did. Then I thought to myself well I don’t know. I can do better than this really. Because I’d got the, what do you call it the [pause] the knowledge as well as being able to make the radios and all the rest of it. I got all that so we, I decided I could do better. And I just put a word around and before I knew it Vidor at Vidor at Erith came after me and said, we want you sort of thing. And I went to Erith, Vidor as a buyer. Because of my knowledge and because of my mechanical aptitude I became a technical buyer at Vidor when they were making the little portables. And then while I was there I was head hunted by Decca. And Decca came after me and said, ‘We’ve heard all about you. We know what you do and you know, makes you tick,’ and I became the, in the Decca radio and television side I became the chief buyer for the bits and pieces. And then to finish the story I, I was there, oh quite got a long time. And then once again a friend of mine I worked with at Vidor he wanted to come and see me. He did and he stayed until about midnight and I wondered what the hell was going on. And then I said, ‘Hey Jim, what are you up to?’ So he said, ‘I’m offering you a job ain’t I?’ And I said, ‘But you can’t match what Decca’s giving me at the moment.’ He said, ‘Try me.’ And I did. And he said, ‘Right. I want you. I want you to set up a company with departments and all the rest of it because we have a device which we — ’ A device which they’d patented. How to measure or weigh by means of air pressure. Not electric but air pressure. Now, this was a good thing. I saw the potential because all the big manufacturers of, that were using, making things which were explosive. That was the answer. So we got going into a very good business and it, it really went well until, until twenty years later. The electronic boys found out how to do it. Make it spark. Spark positive. Whatever you’d like to call it. In other words if there was a spark there wouldn’t be an explosion. So they were beating us then at our own game and unfortunately we went down this pan. Or the company did. By that time I was a director of that company. I was also a director of five others. So I took their little engraving, well part it we owned was an engraving company. So I took that and I went up to Leicester. That’s where it was based. There was only two people. I made the third. And I worked away and I got contracts for BBC. People like that. Big contracts. And once again I was doing all right. So I worked away there and sort of set myself up for a pension by an annuity which I’ve still got today. And then of course time to retire. There you have it.
CJ: There you go. And I think you said earlier that you, you didn’t marry until the war was over. Was that right?
JC: That’s right. I said to my late wife, ‘I will not marry you. Not until I finish flying because I don’t want you to be left with a cinder.’ Because aircrew used to get horribly burned and I wasn’t going to have that. That’s why I didn’t. So October ’45 we were married. And that’s the bit. Married. The vicar was available. Just got hold of him. It was the big church in Brixton. Acre Lane where the big church was and we were married in that church. Now, we managed to get the vicar but we didn’t have a choir, we didn’t have anything like that. We didn’t, we didn’t even have a car to take us. We had a car but halfway there because of the war and bald tyres it got a puncture and we had to walk the rest of the way to the church. And we got married the 20th of October 1945. And I was married for forty six years. Forty seven years. Then you know this. I’ve told you the story about Vi and I and the motorbikes.
CJ: So I think you said you had a common love of motorbikes.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: And Vi lost her husband as well.
JC: Yeah. What I did, when we said oh well we’ll get together we did. But to get married was such a mishmash I can’t, I don’t, I won’t explain it now but it caused a lot of problems or would have done. So we became partners. And I said to Vi, ‘We’re going to have a look at the world.’ And she’d not, so she’d been to Israel. Where else did you go love? You went to Israel. Where else?
VJ: Everywhere that we could.
JC: Eh?
VJ: Everywhere that we possibly could get.
JC: Well, yeah that’s when I said to her, ‘Right. Well, we’re going to see as much of the world as we can,’ and we did. And we went, that’s why we’ve been to Canada, the states. You name it.
CJ: And did you carry on biking on after the war?
JC: Oh yeah, yeah. Carried on biking. After the war. You see because my friend Stanley was Vi’s husband.
CJ: So what was your favourite bike?
JC: Hmmn?
CJ: What was your favourite bike?
JC: Well, my favourite bike was a Vinny. A Vincent. But my wife wouldn’t let me. They had them. They had one. They had a Vincent. Look. There’s one on the wall up there. They had them. But my wife said, ‘No. No. It’s too fast. No. No,’ she said, ‘I’ll leave you if you get one of those.’ No. I didn’t have one. I had a Triumph. A Triumph 650. Which wasn’t bad. I used to get a fair old speed out of it.
CJ: And coming back to the RAF did you keep in touch with the rest of the crew after the war?
JC: Oh yeah. Yes. I did. But gradually, unfortunately the engineer died of [pause] Oh dear. Cancer. It was cancer, wasn’t it?
VJ: Yeah.
JC: He died. And then I lost touch because well a lot of them disappeared. I’ve since discovered that I’m the only one alive. The rest have gone.
MM: When did Mac die?
JC: Eh?
MM: When did Mac die?
JC: I can’t remember.
VJ: About three or four years.
JC: When was it?
VJ: About four years ago.
JC: Eh?
VJ: Four. Four years.
CJ: Four years ago.
JC: Four years ago. Yeah.
CJ: So I gather you went up to East Kirkby for Mac. Is that correct?
CJ: Yes.
CJ: What was that all about?
JC: Well, his daughter was scattering his ashes in the little field of Remembrance up there. That’s why I went up there. We all went up there. There was a gang of us. Of course, scattered his ashes. I simply broke down.
CJ: And were you in a Squadron Association?
JC: Oh yes. It’s in this. Plenty of them. I’m in the Squadron Association and I still get a newsletter every year. I used to go up to the dinner and dance and whatnot. I used to. Now, I couldn’t. So —
MM: You tell him about Johnny Chatterton and Mike Chatterton.
JC: Well, Johnny Chatterton was the test pilot 630 Squadron. He’d just finished his second tour. He was looking for a crew. We’d finished ours and he said, ‘I’m going to take you over pro tem.’ And he did. He took us over for [pause] oh, I don’t know. About a year. Something like that. And finished our time at 630. Disbanded in July. July ’45. So when we disbanded that was it. Johnny tried to get the rest of the crew to go with him but they wouldn’t have it. They wouldn’t have it.
MM: But his son flew the Memorial Flight, didn’t he?
JC: Oh yeah. Mike Chatterton was, was also in the flying game if you like and he, he used to fly the Lanc. Not fly it. Well, he did but —
CJ: This was the BBMF Lancaster.
JC: Yeah. He flew that but the one at East Kirkby when they first got it running, the four engines and he did the first taxi run. When he finished the taxi run he said, ‘I had a bloody hard job to hold it down,’ he said, ‘It wanted to get in the air. Wanted to take off. I had to hold it down.’ Now, Mike Chatterton, he became a wing commander I think. He’s retired now, of course. The Chattertons own the farm which is near East Kirkby actually. Now, that’s a funny thing you see because Johnny Chatterton was born in a little house which is in, was in the middle of East Kirkby.
CJ: What a coincidence.
JC: Yeah.
CJ: Now, have you anything else you’d like to tell us, Joe?
JC: I’m just having a think. What I’m me and my, my beloved partner are carrying on. We’re still together and we don’t know how long because she’s eighty seven. Aren’t you?
VJ: Six.
JC: Eighty six.
MM: She’ll kill you if you don’t know.
JC: And of course I’m ninety one. You had to be that age to do what we’d done because it was at the end of the war. I can add, people say, ‘Well, were you frightened?’ Etcetera. No. Not a bit.
MM: Would you do it again, Joe?
JC: Oh, of course not. I’ve got more sense.
CJ: Well, thanks very much for talking to us today, Joe. That was brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
JC: Yeah. Right.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, tell me Joe did you ever get wounded when you were flying on ops?
JC: Very slightly. I wouldn’t say I really got wounded. What happened was that the flak that came up, came through the turret and caught my right outer gun. In doing so it knocked the back plate off which has the return spring etcetera. And it’s the buffer plate for the [pause] oh dear. I’ve forgotten the name of the —
CJ: The breech.
JC: Eh?
CJ: The breech.
JC: No. It goes backwards and forwards.
CJ: The bolt.
JC: At a fast rate.
CJ: Ok. The firing pin.
JC: Eh?
CJ: The firing pin.
JC: No. No. No. It’s the breech block.
CJ: Ok.
JC: And the breach block came back and came straight out and landed in my lap actually after it had hit the side of my head. Taken my helmet. It took, you know the helmet round bit. The telephones, if you like. Took that off and creased the side of my head and when we went to get debriefed chappy there said, ‘Oh, come on,’ he said, ‘Debrief quick,’ he said, ‘You’ve got to, better go up sick quarters because you’re bleeding.’ I went up sick quarters and the, I don’t know who it was in charge. I can’t remember. But they cleaned up the, where the wound if you like. Cleaned it up and then looked at it and he put an adhesive plaster or a tape on it. Took one step back and said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. Fit for flying tomorrow.’
CJ: Well, thank you for that Joe.
[recording paused]
CJ: So, Joe would you like to tell us about any incident when you actually shot an aircraft down?
JC: Yes. I can because I have my diary which I wrote in. Every time I came back I wrote what it was like. So I can tell you that on the 8th and 9th of February ’45 the target was Politz which was an oil installation north of Stettin. And I go on to say, “The flak was fairly heavy. Red cannon fire continuous over Sweden. Searchlights, some in target area and over Denmark. Two Junkers 88s seen over target. Then Junkers 88 shot down and destroyed by the mid-upper gunner and myself and the bomb aimer two minutes before bombs gone. This was a very tiring trip being airborne for nine hours forty five minutes. Flown over for, eighteen hundred miles. Crossing Sweden and Denmark and the Baltic. The Swedish AA fire was very accurate and a lot of ‘dive ports’ had to be given to avoid it. That was two minutes from the run up to the bombing run. Then the mid-upper sighted a Junkers 88 on port beam level. The mid-upper and bomb aimer opened fire. The 88 tried to drop behind. I yelled out to the skipper, ‘Throttle back. Whatever he does you do. Don’t let don’t let him go up or down or sideways or anything.’ And then at approximately range is seventy five yards I fired in to the canopy and killed the crew. Both the gunners, the other two other than myself kept firing and strikes observed on both engines and it eventually broke away and the bomb aimer saw it crash in the target area. And it was reported also by other crews. Numerous explosions and thick black smoke with flames intermingled came up from the target. Visibility was very good. No cloud. And marking was bang on. No doubt Politz was well and truly pranged this time. It seemed ages in the air. Especially on the return across the North Sea. There was not much AA fire over Denmark but Swedish gunners were very active. No fighters were, were observed after the 88. This provided enjoyment of aerial warfare.”
Well, thanks very much Joe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Joseph Henry Cook
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACookJH170118, PCookJH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:04:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Completing school and moving on to work at 20th Century Fox Films, he worked as a fire watcher at the beginning of the war before joining the Royal Air Force. He states that he did that because he always wanted to fly and didn’t want to join the Army. He was sent to St. John’s Woods, for square bashing, which he thought was to ‘break’ the aircrews, before completing his initial training at RAF Bridgnorth and then onto RAF Bridlington to learn Morse code. He turned down being a bomb aimer in Anson and trained as an air gunner instead, after being told that they had the highest loss rate. He eventually travelled to RAF Tarrant Rushton just before the D-Day landings, being sent to drop leaflets over France in old Stirlings. Upon completing one of his first four operations, he baled out and landed in a tree. Joe was transferred to Wellingtons, flying training eight-hour trips. Joe also recounts several experiences on operations, including two near misses and flying at low temperatures. He didn’t think about losses, purely as they were so tired. Decommissioned in July 1945, Joe struggled to find work following the war, with people not hiring him as they believed he had killed people. He remained in touch with his crew and he also joined the squadron association. He states that he was never frightened throughout the war, but that he wouldn’t do it again, as he has more sense now.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Germany
Poland
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Urft Dam
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-07
630 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bale out
bombing
crewing up
fear
Fw 190
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 109
Me 262
military ethos
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
propaganda
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Tarrant Rushton
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/985/10256/ATaylorDP181017.2.mp3
12a6910f0d074fe6c0d64967444e7110
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Taylor, Doug
Douglas Pinning Taylor
D P Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-10-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Taylor, DP
Creator
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An oral history interview with Doug Taylor (b. 1925, 176685 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 57 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JB: This interview is being carried for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jennifer Barraclough. The interviewee is Mr Douglas Taylor and we are at Mr Taylor’s home near Auckland. The date of the interview, the date is 17th of October 2018. Ok, Mr Taylor, thanks for seeing me. Could you tell me just a little about how you came to join up with the RAF?
DT: Flying. Certainly, better than the infantry marching [laughs] I had a private pilot’s licence anyway so the obvious thing was to join the Air Force. But there was an eighteen month delay in call up for pilots because there were so many of them, and then they had to wait until there was a ship going to the United States where they did the training, got their wings then wait for another ship to get back to England. I reckoned the war would be over by then so I volunteered as an air gunner and trained in England. In the west of England. It was only what six months training and then joined a squadron. 57 Squadron. Quite a happy one.
JB: Good. Right.
DT: [unclear] amount of that.
JB: So, tell us a little about your experiences during operations.
DT: Oh, I only did nine because the training took so long and we were never attacked by fighters but the enemy flak was a bit worrying. Quite often you would feel the aircraft give a jump when a shell burst a bit too close. But we were never hit. Not seriously. There were one or two small bits in the fuselage but nothing serious. I only did nine over Germany.
JB: Right.
DT: But all the years of training, one station to another and we only did nine. The tour was thirty.
JB: Yes.
DT: But anyway, that’s many years ago. Long ago and forgotten.
JB: Yeah.
DT: East Kirkby. That was it. That’s where I was stationed. 57 Squadron. A happy squadron.
JB: Good.
DT: But that’s all a long past thank goodness.
JB: Long past.
[pause]
DT: I’d already done first year [BOC] when I joined up. So the generous government paid the other two years [BOC] after I’d served which was very nice of them.
JB: What, what subject was that?
DT: Agriculture. Which of course includes chemistry, geology, fertilisation and animal husbandry. All sorts of things concerned with agriculture. A three year course and ex-service so the government paid. Paid the fees.
JB: Great.
DT: You made a hit with her.
JB: I have haven’t it. The dog is present.
DT: She’s a nice dog. She’s not even ours. Neither of them are.
JB: Really.
DT: They’re my son’s but he parks them on us during the day [laughs]
JB: Right. So, what about your life after the war? What did you do?
DT: Pardon?
JB: After the war what did you do?
DT: Well, I went back to [unclear] and completed the two years of the degree.
JB: Yes. And after that?
DT: Heck. It’s a long time ago. I was doing some advisory work advising farmers.
JB: And you moved to New Zealand. A long time ago. You came to New Zealand.
DT: Oh yes.
JB: Yes.
DT: Yeah. I bought a farm in south Africa and I farmed there. Mainly maize. And then I don’t know. I ended up in New Zealand.
JB: Yeah.
DT: Couldn’t go much further south. South Africa was a lovely country until the black gentry took over and then it wasn’t so good. I had ten years in Kenya. That was a beautiful country because although it was on the equator it wasn’t hot because it was five thousand feet, most of it. I had a farm there. That was, that was a lovely country. But then again it was given back to the Africans and everything went downhill.
JB: And did you continue flying?
DT: I had a private pilot’s licence. Yes. Then I had two years as a senior inspector in Bechuanaland. What is it? Botswana is it now or something or other? It was Bechuana. Bechuanaland then anyway. I could have gone in to the Service in England but that was pretty dull work. Anyway, it was much nicer in Kenya. It was a lovely country, Kenya. Most of it was five thousand feet above sea level. Although you were on the equator it was never too hot. Pleasant climate. Very pleasant. And there again the Africans took over. They wanted our jobs. Well, they didn’t really they wanted the pay and not the job [laughs] So things were going downhill. Hopefully, they’ve picked up since then. What am I doing this interview for anyway?
JB: It’s for the International Bomber Command Centre.
DT: Oh, I see.
JB: In England. Yes. Can you think of anything more at all to say about your wartime service?
DT: Not really. No.
JB: Not really. What, what was it like being on on the operations as a gunner?
DT: Well, the Germans were very short of fuel so we never saw a fighter but they still had plenty of anti-aircraft shells and every so often the plane would give a little judder if it got too close. We had one or two pieces of shrapnel through the fuselage. Not many though. And anyway, if they hit you it was just the luck of the draw.
JB: Yes. So, did you never have to fire a gun?
DT: Never.
JB: Never.
DT: Well, yes. But not in anger.
JB: No.
DT: I had to fire them under training but not —
JB: Just in training but —
DT: No.
JB: Not on operations. Right.
DT: What were they? Each gun was a eleven fifty rounds a minute.
JB: Right.
DT: The rear gunner had four. I sat in the mid-upper and had two. But even then that was a heck of a lot of bullets going out. Thank goodness those days are over.
JB: Yes.
DT: There was a wonderful spirit on the squadron though. Everybody worked together. Just as well. We shared the station with another squadron. That was 630. But there was no antagonism between us at all. We shared it amicably. Thank goodness those days are over.
JB: Did you keep up with any of [pause] did you keep up with any of your friends after the war?
DT: Yes. We had a round robin and one crew member would write a letter enclose it, send it to another crew member. The other crew member added one, took his original one out and it went around and around around until members started to drop of their perch. No. We kept in touch alright. Your bag is being well and truly sniffed. [pause] Are you being kept busy?
JB: With this? Moderately. Yes.
DT: Thank goodness those days are long past.
JB: Yes. Ok. Is there anything else you’d like to say at all?
DT: Well, not really.
JB: No.
DT: You just sprung it on me so I’d have to think about it. I don’t think so.
JB: No.
DT: We said the station. East Kirkby. 617. Not 617. That was the Dambusters. What the hell was it? I can’t remember their number. I’m sure there was six something.
JB: Right.
DT: But two squadrons on a station and we hardly saw any of the other squadron. And then we had leave. Was it every six weeks? I think it was. A week’s leave. Plus travelling time. I’m pretty sure it was very frequent anyway. Those days are long past thank goodness.
JB: Ok. We’ll finish there then.
DT: Right [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Doug Taylor
Creator
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Jennifer Barraclough
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATaylorDP181017
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:12:57 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Doug Taylor already had a pilot’s licence when he volunteered as RAF aircrew. However, he considered the prospect of lengthy training ahead to join the RAF as a pilot and thought the war might end before he’d had a chance to join and so he volunteered as an air gunner. He undertook nine operations with his crew while based at RAF East Kirkby with 57 Squadron. After the war he went on to farming in Africa and New Zealand.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Kenya
New Zealand
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
RAF East Kirkby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/722/10118/ABradfordS161031.2.mp3
18e10be05e692061bdfe7a521b7d2770
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bradford, Stanley
S Bradford
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Stan Bradford DFM (1923 - 2017, 2216040 Royal Air Force) also includes his flying log book, service and release document, investiture ticket, newspaper cuttings and squadron photograph. He flew operations as a mid-upper gunner from RAF Scampton.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stanley Bradford and Matt Ashamall and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bradford, S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today I’m in Abingdon with Stan Bradford DFM and we’ve just been to the Remembrance celebration in the centre of the town. And Stan was a mid-upper gunner and we’re going to talk about some extra items that have come out of the earlier part of the interview done by Matt Ashamall. So the first one that was intriguing I thought Stan was how you came to join the RAF. Because of when you were going in your truck.
SB: Yeah.
CB: To Blackpool. You thought you’d —
SB: Yes.
CB: Go into the Recruiting Office. So just talk us through that could you?
SB: Well, from what I remember it my foreman where I was an apprentice his name was Ervyn Jagger. And since the war I’ve been in management myself and one of the big things I felt I had to look at was his style of man management. And his man management was absolutely deploring. Now, our job. We were in a Reserved Occupation and our job was to repair fighting vehicles such as coaches that transported troops from station to station. If they had been involved in an accident we had to repair them and then deliver them to the old, back to the owners. And one particular day I was with a guy and he was an Irishman, his name was Mick Jagger. That was a good for you. Now, Mick was wonderful. But Ervyn Jagger, the foreman he came up to Mick. He said, ‘Mick. I’m going to take your lad off you.’ Which was me. And he said, ‘He’s big enough. And now the restrictions are lifted where you don’t need a driving test anymore,’ he said, ‘And I want him to take a Seagull coaches to Blackpool. Having repaired it now we’ll take it to Blackpool.’ And it annoyed me in so much that I was with Mick as a lad and I was doing pretty good. And it seemed to me that he was determined to stop me being so good because he had his favourites in the department. However, I got in the bus and we had to go through, I mean you will all have heard of Wigan Pier. And close to Wigan Pier we went through with this bus. And I thought, ‘Bugger. I’m going to go in the forces.’ My mates are in there that was in the village. It was a small village called Astley that had about a couple of hundred people and the local industry was a coal mine. However, I thought I’m going to have a go. So I went to the army guy and I said, ‘Can I recruit? Join the army.’ ‘Oh come in,’ you know, ‘We’ll take you on.’ Of course once he knew I was an apprentice he said, ‘No chance.’ He said, ‘You’re an apprentice in a Reserved Occupation. So,’ he said, ‘No chance.’ Well, for reasons best known to the service people there were three in a line. The army, the navy, the air force. So I’m now with the navy. So I went to the navy. And the navy bloke said, ‘Yeah. Come in.’ Once he started, Reserved Occupation, out you go. They wouldn’t have me. I thought well I’ll just as well fix the three up. I’ll go to the air force. And the sergeant in there said, ‘Yeah. We’ll have you. But,’ he said, ‘There’s only one place you’re going to be,’ he said, ‘Because I heard you talking about the guy down the street that you’ve been in a Reserved Occupation.’ I said, ‘Exactly.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘The only chance you’ve got of coming in to the air force,’ he said, ‘Is you go in aircrew.’ I said, ‘That’s alright. Put me down for aircrew.’ So off I went quite happily. Signed. And delivered the coach and then come back to my works where I was apprentice. Went home in the evening. I said, ‘Mum and dad, I’ve been and joined the services.’ My dad said, ‘What you done?’ I said, ‘I’ve joined the air force. In aircrew.’ He said, ‘What?’ he said, ‘Bloody nancy boys.’ [laughs] I said, ‘I’m afraid so, dad.’ Of course he had his say and it wasn’t very pleasant because he was a regimental sergeant major in the army in the First World War. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ve done it. There’s nothing we can do.’ Within five days I had to go to a place which wasn’t too far from home called RAF Padgate. And there they did an attestation. So we had to sit an exam. Did we have a brain? We had an examination. Then we had a medical examination. A colour test. Make sure that we weren’t colour blinded because to get in aircrew you had to be spot on. Your hearing. And when they’d finished with you you could guarantee that you are a fit man. And from there within, we went home, and within less than a week I was in and back to Padgate. And I’ll always remember a funny story at Padgate. I said to the corporal who was in charge, we went to a wrestling match which they put on for the troops and this corporal, I said to this corporal, ‘Is there any chance of me going home?’ I said, ‘I only live just up the road.’ ‘Just the bloke we’re looking for. So what would I ended up? I was an usher ushering people to their seats. So, I didn’t get my chance to go home. And from there we went off to Lords Cricket Ground. So that was —
CB: Yeah.
SB: When I, why I joined.
CB: Fantastic. Thank you very much. Now, in the process of your flying you were very successful in engaging aircraft. So, I wondered if we could just take a sequence out of the overall sequence of your kills and because yours is a very unusual situation and it would be really useful to be able to hear how this progressed because some of the people I’ve interviewed never even shot at an aircraft let alone shot it down. So your first engagement was what?
SB: We were on the way to Nuremberg. And sitting up in the mid-upper turret you’d got a damned good view of proceedings and I happened to spot, when I was traversing the mid-upper turret [pause] a Lancaster blown up. And I thought Christ. I kept my eye on him. It was a 109. I kept my eye on him and I thought he appears to be swooping around towards us. And I thought extra alert on to him. So, I said to my pilot, told him there was enemy aircraft on our starboard beam. And astern and starboard beam is back of us. And lo and behold yes he was coming towards us. Well, one of the things in our training we had to know the aircraft that was we were engaging. We had to know it’s wing span. We had to know its speed. We had to know everything there was to know about who was coming so we could line him up in our sights and this 109 was coming towards us. And I thought right. I put my sights on him. Frightened to death. I watched him until he got within shooting range and then I gave him a burst. And hey presto I was lucky. I hit him and caught him straight in the engine and down he went. And I watched him go. I shouldn’t have done it but I did it. I watched him go down. We’re not supposed to look down at all. So, I watched him going down. And in between this what I told the pilot to, ‘Dive to port. Go.’ Now, a pilot never moved until the gunner said to him, Prepare to dive to port.’ And he always waited for the word, ‘Go.’ And you can imagine the suspense between the two of us. Him waiting for me and me waiting for him to [laughs] It was a little bit frightening but I did it. I did it.
CB: So you shot it down. So the idea of then going the opposite way. In other words to port, to the left was to get out of the way.
SB: Dive away from him coming in. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Because he might have got you himself even.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right. Ok. So which operation was that? Was that one of your early —
SB: That was the very first.
CB: Very first. Right.
SB: Very first. From Scampton.
CB: Right.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the second kill. What was that?
SB: The second kill. Our rear gunner, he reported enemy aircraft astern of us and again he gave the pilot order what he wanted. I believe it was again dive starboard. And naturally it drew my attention to that situation. And Chick hit him. He fired at him. He hit him but he didn’t put him down. And I looked over as he went underneath us. I looked over and I thought well I’ve got to help him on his way. So, I belted him and he went down.
CB: What was that?
SB: I believe it was a Focke Wulf 190. And that was very close to the target. Nuremberg. Now, during this time obviously they the Focke Wulf in particular he shot at us and wounded us and he destroyed our navigational equipment. So, basically we come out the target the other end and we were lost. Ron, our pilot, he never kept anything from us. He always informed us of what was happening and he said, ‘Well, lads,’ he said, ‘You’ve done a good job getting rid of that lot. Now,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a problem. We’re bloody lost.’ However, this, what this did this brought in our navigator. He had what they called in those days a sextant. And this sextant it was taken from what they called the astrodome where the spare man, in this case it was our wireless operator in the target area looking for enemy aircraft to inform us if there was one about. But he relinquished the role and let the navigator go in there firing the sextant at the stars to get a fix. Where were we and whatever. And Tony got, Tony West his name was, he got a fix alright. And he seemed to get us somewhere near but we were all alone. By this time one of the engines had gone. We had three. And later on in the trip after probably maybe an hour, two hours we came out and Tony. He said, ‘I’ve got a feeling now, Skipper,’ he said, ‘We’re over the sea.’ He said, ‘I’m sure I see the enemy, the coast.’ So, he said, ‘Ron,’ he said, ‘If you’re looking for help,’ he said, ‘I would issue an SOS. Call up Darkie and say we’re lost.’ What are we going to do? So Ron did. He thought that was not a bad idea. He called out Darkie and SOSs and one thing and another. And before you could say jack’s a lad bump. Bang. We were over the Channel Islands and as is well known that the Germans invaded the Channel Islands and occupied it and the Germans were firing at us. We thought, Christ. It wasn’t very pleasant. But Ron stuck the nose down from what height we had and got well away as quick as he could. And after a little while an aircraft appeared and flashed his navigation lights. You know, the green and the red. And we picked him up by, well I picked him up. I said, ‘It’s a Typhoon bomber.’ I said to Ron, ‘It’s a Typhoon bomber.’ And he took a position. He was a little out of range of our guns. We only had a four hundred yards accuracy. And I said, ‘We aint going to have a go at him.’ However, I did identify him. He was a Typhoon. And he kept well out on [pause] of our range and he escorted us back. He was based at RAF Exeter. He guided us in. Wished us all the best. Did chatter. Got us on the runway. And we got to the end of the runway and the bloody engines packed in. Course the aircraft was knocked about like a colander. Well what they said to us when they got us out the aeroplane very quickly in case something blew up or whatever and debriefed us and then they took us for a meal. The old traditional egg and bacon. And the flight sergeant in the sergeant’s mess there was only two of us. Three of us, I beg your pardon. He took us into the mess and unfortunately the flight sergeant in the mess he’d just been informed that his son who was an air gunner had just been missing on operations. So he made a real special effort looking after us three. Two of us were gunners. And he said, ‘What about a drink lads?’ We were all dressed for flying so it was, thinking it was winter see keep warm so we kept the aircrew unit on and they took us into Exeter. We’d barely got out the van that he’d laid on for us into Exeter when the SPs got hold of us and whipped us back to base which didn’t please the flight sergeant. I think he doubted their parentage if I’m honest because of what they’d done and he told them what we’d gone through. And they said, ‘We’re doing our job.’ So it was all messed up. And the next day we flew back to Scampton where we picked our kit up and then off to East Kirkby.
CB: When —
SB: And then we had to wait a little while before 57 Squadron confirmed that we were credited with the two and they gave them to me.
CB: Brilliant. On a slightly different note what was the relationship you had with the ground crew?
SB: Perfect. Absolutely perfect.
CB: So, when you brought a colander back how did they express their feelings about that?
SB: I don’t think I’d like to come out with the language but can I just said Jesus Christ [laughs]
CB: Over the Channel Islands that was flak that hit you was it?
SB: The big guns.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. The big guns. Yeah. Yeah. And in point of fact some years later I said to my wife, we went on holiday into Weymouth and I said to my wife I spotted this sign, “day trip.” I said [unclear] ‘We’re going.’ And I went to see the old hospital and things like that.
CB: Yeah. The underground hospital.
SB: Just to bring back memories.
CB: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
CB: And those coastal guns.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Fantastic.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Right. So that’s your first operation and you shot down two aircraft.
SB: Yes.
CB: So, we’re on the topic of the kills. What was the third victory that you had?
SB: I think the Dornier 217. That was a fighter bomber. And I’ve got a feeling. I’m not certain where that, where he was. [pause] He was, all I can tell you he was persistent. He had a go at us two or three times and we, between us we dodged him with our tactics. Again, which was a lot of the training.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And our tactics beat him.
CB: So, how did you actually get him in the end? In the fuselage? In the engines? Or what?
SB: Straight in the pilot’s cabin. Yeah. I thought, well the bugger had got to go hadn’t he? It’s him or me.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Either kill or be killed.
CB: What, what raid were you on then? What op?
SB: I’ve got a feeling we were Berlin.
CB: Right.
SB: I’m sure. Berlin.
CB: Yeah. So that’s number three. What happened with the next one?
SB: I think again it was an ME 109. We was just approaching. Again Berlin. We were going in there. We hadn’t had a very pleasant trip in there and Munday decided well we’ve come this far. We’re going to go and we’re going to go in there and we’re going to do what we’re paid to do. And we did it. And just as we were coming out the other end he was waiting for us. So I thought well he’s got to go and all [laughs] So, yes. I did him.
CB: So, we’re in the night and these are single-engine aircraft. They’re being directed by radar to you.
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: Right.
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So how did you see him first?
SB: I think I looked. I’m pretty sure I looked up and he was just hovering above. Obviously out of the way of the flak. And I identified him pretty quick and said that’s what he was. And I’m pretty positive in saying that as was the case with the last one he didn’t see us.
CB: So effectively you got him —
SB: I hit him. I hit him in the engine. And the last one I — he was flying on the beam and Dennis was in the, as I said earlier he, Dennis was in the astrodome looking. Helping the gunners. Looking for enemy aircraft. And he said, ‘Look on the starboard beam, Stan.’ I said, ‘Funnily enough I just got, I’ve just seen him.’ And with that I had him. I’d time to tell him to tell Ron what tactics were involved so a bit too late so, however, I had him. I shot the pilot. I could, I could even see it now. I had him. Full. No bother.
CB: And at what distance are we talking about?
SB: I’m talking of what two, three hundred yards.
CB: Right. And in, I didn’t ask you but in the mid-upper turret how many guns have you got?
SB: Two.
CB: Right.
SB: Two.
CB: And they’re zeroed at what range?
SB: The maximum we had was four hundred. Maximum.
CB: Right. So, we’ve done three and four. How did you feel about it once you’d dealt with them?
SB: Could you say elated in one sense.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And thanking my lucky stars in the other.
CB: Sure.
SB: Yeah. Yes.
CB: Number five.
SB: I’m not. Do you know I’m not certain. I’m not. I’m not a hundred percent certain so I don’t know if you don’t mind if I don’t comment on the one. I’m not. I’m not — it’s misty. No.
CB: At what happened you mean?
SB: Sorry?
CB: You mean when it was and what happened.
SB: Yeah. I’m a little bit foggy.
CB: Yes.
SB: I’m not a hundred percent certain.
CB: But roughly. Just roughly.
SB: Roughly. Roughly again —
CB: Because they were all at night these things.
SB: They had a go at us.
CB: Yeah.
SB: I’ve got a feeling one was on the way [pause] they had a clue from the — see being it was early this one. They were waiting on the borders. Before Sweden. And I think again it was a 109. Pretty sure it was. And —
CB: Is this over Denmark is it?
SB: Sorry?
CB: Is this over Denmark?
SB: Yeah. On the way in.
CB: Yeah. To Berlin.
SB: In to Sweden.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Because we flew over Sweden which unfortunately Winston Churchill denied that we were briefed to go that way. Again, strange enough it was one of the most frightening we did. Not being used to seeing streetlights and things like this. And also they had, the Swedish air force were equipped with Focke Wulf 190s —
CB: Right.
SB: As their front line aircraft. Fighters. And they kept just outside the four hundred yard mark at which are guns weren’t effective and your sitting there, ‘Is that bugger going to shoot at us?’ And you didn’t, just didn’t comprehend what, what was going to happen. Were they going, were they going to have a go at us or not? But fortunately they escorted us straight through Sweden to the other end and believe it or believe it not there was a searchlight pointing at to sea. Straight over our track.
CB: This is on the return trip.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
SB: We’d done the bombing. Then we were coming home.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And it was unbelievable to think that —
CB: They would do that. Yeah.
SB: They was identifying the track. That’s the way you’ve got to go lads.
CB: Fantastic.
SB: And our man went.
CB: Yeah. But your engagement with the fighter was before then.
SB: Oh yeah. That was on the, coming into, into Sweden.
CB: Yes. Oh you went over —
SB: The had an idea from the —
CB: You went over Sweden both ways did you?
SB: No. No.
CB: No.
SB: No. No. Coming home.
CB: Right.
SB: Coming home. I’ve got a feeling one of them, because of the following wind it took us an hour and a half to get from take-off to bombing.
CB: Really.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Gee.
SB: And it took us six and a half to come back against the wind [laughs]
CB: Blimey. Yeah.
SB: I can always remember that you know.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: So that was a very memorable experience
SB: Yes.
CB: Because of the lack of knowledge.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Of whether the Swedes would attack or not.
SB: Yes. Yes. My very, very worst one was the one before the end.
CB: Right.
SB: We knew. We knew we were very very close to finishing. And we called it, it was christened the night of the high winds. And the wind blew us off track. And Tony West, he always put it down. He kept contact with Ron’s instruction. He kept contacting base about the winds. He said. ‘They’re not what you said they were going to be.’ And he kept on. On and on to them. And base kept saying to him there’s nothing wrong with the winds. And they wouldn’t accept there was anything wrong at all. However, it blew us off course and it blew us a hell of a long way off course and it blew us over the Ruhr. Now, in anybody’s language the Ruhr was naughty.
CB: Happy Valley.
SB: Yeah. Called, it was called Happy Valley. Yes. Now, what happened it was some pilots dream. An aircraft which we were the unfortunate ones. The aircraft were coned in searchlights. In total we were coned for thirty five minutes. Now, if you’re coned even for a few minutes you’re belted out, almost belted out the sky which they hammered us good and proper. We were shot. I think we had two engines in the end. And when I said about it being a pilot’s dream — if an aircraft was coned this was a signal for following aircraft to dive through. When they were coning you they couldn’t cone two of you together and it allowed the other one to shoot through. So they probably clapped their hands Christ thanked their lucky stars. Unlucky stars. But bless him, Ron my old skipper he threw that aircraft all over the sky and he got us out. Now, ‘Now, we’re free from that lot lads but,’ he said, ‘We’ve got another bloody problem.’ Fred Simmons, our engineer he said, ‘Ron,’ he said, ‘Unfortunately that little bit of a detour we had to have and all that you throwing it about the sky it’s affected our fuel consumption. So,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a decision to make as a crew,’ he said, ‘I always said and I always will stick to a decision that the whole crew make the risk. The decision whether we’re going to go back to try and get back to our original place on track or we come back over the sea.’ So, we said, well [laughs] we had different views but the vote was we came back by sea. And I believe we couldn’t make base because of we were short about I think we had two engines and I think we landed at Coltishall.
CB: In Norfolk. Yeah.
SB: Then a couple of days and fixed us up. Back to East Kirkby and Wing Commander Miller was our commanding officer and he said, ‘Because of the hairy situation you’ve just been in over the Ruhr,’ he said, ‘The trip that’s just coming up,’ he said, ‘Which I’m not going to put you on so you’re confined to camp.’ So we couldn’t go blabbing about where main force were going. He said, ‘I’m not going to put you on the Ruhr.’ He said, ‘I’m going to save you for a bit easier.’ Which wasn’t a bad idea really. In theory. So we attended the briefing for our last one. Lo and behold where was it? We looked at each other and said, ‘Jesus Christ.’ It was Nuremberg. Which was the infamous one that Bomber Command lost ninety odd aircraft. But between this I had been awarded my Distinguished Flying Medal. And we were briefed to go to Emden. And for some unknown reason, weather or whatever, they called it off. So, we were in our flying gear. I had a black and white silk scarf my mum gave me as a lucky mascot and buoyancy suits. We did look darlings. All grease all over the face where the buckles on your mask so you didn’t get frostbite. And so we were allowed in the mess because the trip had been cancelled so we were allowed in the mess in flying gear so we went in the mess for a jug or two. And I’d barely got a jug in my hand for a pint and the phone went in the mess and the page, paged me on the phone and it was my skipper. He said, ‘What the hell have you been doing?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. I’m just having a pint.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ve been doing summat,’ he said, ‘Because I’ve got to get you into Wing Commander Miller’s officer straight away.’ He said, ‘Now, I’m coming outside the mess to pick you up.’ He said, ‘I’m only just over the road at the officer’s mess,’ he said, ‘I’m, like yourself, having one.’ He said, ‘I’m going to pick you up. Down the flights we go.’ So he marched me in. After a little while he called me in. He marched me into Wing Commander Miller’s office and Wing Commander Miller looked at me. He said, ‘You sergeant are improperly dressed.’ I said, ‘I’ve got a tie. A scarf.’ He said, ‘You’re improperly dressed,’ he said, ‘Coming in my office.’ He tore me a strip off. Then he said, ‘I’m pleased to tell you, Sergeant Bradford you’ve just been the immediate award of the Distinguished Flying Medal. Now,’ he said, ‘Get in to Boston and have some bloody beer.’ So, Boston was our nearest place and he said I’ve reserved a couple of seats on the coach for you. So,’ he said, ‘In to Boston. You go and have some beer.’ And that was it. So that was the finish.
CB: Fantastic. On the sequence we were talking about you shot down six didn’t you?
SB: Yeah.
CB: So, we’ve got to number five which was when you went on the trip that went via Sweden.
SB: Yes.
CB: What about the sixth one? What was that?
SB: I can, yes. Well, yes he was. It was a Dornier 217. And whether you, the Germans allowed them to sleep or not I don’t know but there was two of them in there. And again we were coming out of the target a little bit higher than usual and he was up there and looking out for us as we were looking out for him. And I engaged him. He saw us at the last minute. I engaged him and, well the rest is history. He had to go.
CB: Where was him in, where was he in relation to the aircraft?
SB: Again, he was, he was —
CB: High up.
SB: Starboard up. Higher. Yes.
CB: So, in the circumstances what would be the aiming point of that, on that aircraft?
SB: I just shot at the aeroplane.
CB: Right.
SB: I just shot at the aeroplane.
CB: So effectively it raked —
SB: It blew up.
CB: It raked the underside.
SB: It blew up.
CB: Did it? Right.
SB: Yes. He did.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yes, he did. Yes. He did.
CB: So —
SB: And then there was all this, ‘Well done, Stan.’ And in point of fact I got a book on the Battle of Berlin.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And my pilot, bless him he wrote in there, “A present to Stan.” Martin Middlebrook’s book. It was, “A present to Stan who saved our lives on many occasions.”
CB: Brilliant. Yes. The planes you were, you shot down were a combination of twin engine and single engine.
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: So the fifth one. Was that also a single engine?
SB: Yes. A Focke Wulf 190.
CB: That was a 190 as well?
SB: Yes.
CB: That was —
SB: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
SB: Yes.
CB: On the way to the target was it?
SB: Yes.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
SB: Yes. They were over the target and on the approach as well.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Fighter planes. Get away quicker see.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: The big stuff like the Dorniers were outside the target waiting for us.
CB: What sort of — when they saw you in advance what sort of range did they start shooting?
SB: They was around the four hundred yards. They had — they, obviously they could. They had a bigger range than us. See, four hundred yards was the, a Browning 303.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Whereas what were they armed with?
SB: Yeah.
CB: What were they armed with? What guns did they have?
SB: I don’t honestly know.
CB: So they had 30 mill err 20 millimetre cannon.
SB: I’ve no idea.
CB: Right. As well as machine guns.
SB: I’ve no idea at all.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Good. Thank you. We’ll take a pause there for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, Stan with six aircraft shot down.
SB: Yeah.
CB: In RAF parlance that made you an ace.
SB: Yes.
CB: How did they recognise that?
SB: It was announced at briefing at East Kirkby that, ‘Gentlemen, we’ve got an ace in our midst.’ Miller. Wing Commander Miller. And I believe that there was another officer who was commanding officer of the whole of the group was Group Captain Taff. I don’t know whether you’ve ever heard of him at all.
CB: No.
SB: He was —
CB: Obviously Welsh.
SB: I believe, again that [pause] I used to get on pretty, well he did with most aircrew. He was a damned good drinker [laughs] But he announced that it was his pleasure to shake my hand. And he said to everybody, ‘Here we’ve got him. He’s an ace.’ That. And it was as quick as that.
CB: So, at Kirkby as everywhere else there was a gunner leader was there?
SB: Yes. Yes.
CB: And how did he react to that?
SB: I’d like to use a word but I don’t dare. Can we call —
[recording paused]
CB: So, there was a gunnery leader.
SB: Yeah. It was, it was the practice that the leader of each section, and I can only speak of 57 Squadron that the gunnery leader in my case, he said, ‘I’m going to rest you on the next trip,’ he said, ‘You won’t be going on the trip. I’ll be taking your place.’ Which rather dejected me and I went to my skipper and I said, ‘Ron, I’m not happy at all. My gunnery leader’s taking me off the trip and he’s going in my place.’ And Ron’s reaction was, ‘He bloody well aint.’ And he didn’t.
CB: What rank would gunnery —
SB: Flight lieutenant.
CB: Right.
SB: He had a thing about him. I can only again speak for my personal self and my other gunner, Chick who was a Canadian. I can only speak for the two of us. We never ever missed the opportunity to go out on the gunnery range and practice. Clay pigeon shooting and shooting from a, from a turret. From one like me I was in a two and he was in a four. We never ever, ever missed a session. Chick, he was the champion clay pigeon shooter and I was his deputy.
CB: Very good.
SB: Yeah. We never missed.
CB: Right.
SB: Now, so that gunnery leader should have talked to us and used us an example.
CB: Exactly. So my next question was what the reaction?
SB: He didn’t.
CB: Of the other gunners.
SB: He didn’t. Whether it registered. It must have registered mustn’t it? But he didn’t seem to take it on board.
CB: Ok [pause] Thank you. Now, a couple of other things. One is that when you were at Scampton you met Guy Gibson.
SB: Yes. I did.
CB: Just, what was the, he was 617 but —
SB: Yes. I was on my way. I can, again that’s one. Things like this never leave you. I was on my way into the sergeant’s mess. Right. And I think it was at mealtime and he was walking his dog. Naturally I had to throw him one up. Salute. And he called me over. And he had a thing. Gibson. About NCOs. He just [pause] he didn’t like them as much as he did officers. End of story really. I can honestly say that the aircrew — sergeants and flight sergeants, they weren’t his favourite people.
CB: Was that related to the role they did? So, did air gunners come off worst?
SB: I don’t know. I really don’t know. But he didn’t. He was against aircrew. Sergeants.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And flight sergeants.
CB: What about his dog?
SB: Friendly enough. Friendly enough. Them days the billets were just inside the gate and we were in one of those billets. There were two crews in the house. And he’d obviously been somewhere and come through the gates on the way to the mess when I met him.
CB: But the dog was called?
SB: I can’t remember it’s bloody name. Not Ricky. No. No. I forget.
CB: And the dog was called N*****.
SB: N*****. I went and looked at his grave this last year.
CB: Did you?
SB: When they called us up for our reunion. Yeah.
CB: And was the dog allowed to wander around? Or what happened?
SB: Yes. He did.
CB: With the dog.
SB: Yes. He did.
CB: That mess up your shoes?
SB: After I’d gone he was, he died.
CB: Did it mess up your shoes a bit?
SB: No.
CB: Ok. Thank you. The other one is a contentious one and its one that nowadays is used to, is described a different way but in war there are all sorts of sanctions that are imposed.
SB: [unclear]
CB: In war there are all sort of sanctions imposed.
SB: Sanctions.
CB: According to circumstances. So you had a certain situation where one of the crew on one of the trips lost his bottle. What was the circumstances of that?
SB: Ginger.
CB: What happened there?
SB: Well, that again was a Berlin. It was custom [pause] I would reckon that all pilots did it. When you were just before, well it was just before actually your bombing run you knew you were coming up shortly to your bombing run and pilots always lifted the nose of the aircraft slightly upwards. So that when the word, ‘Bombs gone,’ it automatically gave a lurch up and with it pointing upwards you took one hell of a lift up. And it was also custom that when the bombs had gone the pilot used to scream out, and it was a scream, ‘Full power.’ Now, the practice was that the engineer, the pilot had enough on his plate to steer the aircraft. So the engineer put his hand on the four throttles and pushed them forward and locked them. So they were screaming their guts out.
CB: So they’re through the gate.
SB: Through the gate.
CB: Yeah.
SB: And naturally the crew knew. We just took it as that was it. All glued to our seats. And when we got back Ron said to the crew, by which time Ginger had been left with intelligence but with the crew he got us all together and he said, ‘Well, lads,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a problem. We’ve got a problem. And,’ he said, ‘It’s not a pleasant problem. Ginger [pause] has gone LMF.’ He said, ‘You know from experience that it’s my job always to call for full power through the gate when we are coming out of the target to get us away as quick as we can and it’s unfortunate Ginger was hiding behind my seat. He couldn’t face up to it.’ So, he said, ‘There. You’ve got it.’ He said, ‘We’ve got no option but to report it to the commanding officer,’ he said. And well that was the end. He’d gone. Whether it was a stroke of luck. Fate. Is that what they call it? But we picked up another engineer within days because we, in them days it was essential we got as many bombers up there as they could and we picked up a bloke called Fred Simmons. And Fred, I always called him, he was point of fact we palled up. He was one of, my best friend. And what he didn’t know about an engine wasn’t worth knowing. He was absolutely brilliant. Now, Fred, he was with another aircraft and the crew he was with — Fred went sick [pause] And naturally if you had a sneeze in aircrew you were took off. So Fred was took off the trip and unfortunately the crew he was with didn’t come back. So we inherited Fred after a few days. We inherited Fred as our engineer. The replacement for Ginger. And he was brilliant. He was the kind of bloke that because I came from just outside of Manchester it was much too far for me to go home on a forty eight hour leave and [pause] he said, ‘You’re not going to stop on the station. That’s a certain fact,’ he said, ‘You’re going to come home with me. I live in Wisbech.’ Well, he was married. Unfortunately they couldn’t have children. And he lived with his mum and they kept the Railway Inn at Wisbech. So he and I used to go when we had a forty eight he used to take me and I used to help his mum. She was a widow by then. Incidentally Matthew took me to see the hotel. It’s still there.
Other: It’s a house now isn’t it? It was a house now, I think. Someone lived in it. It was still there. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Somebody lived in the house. What more can I say about Fred? We were absolutely — we lived in each other’s pockets.
CB: Did you, did you keep up with him after the war?
SB: No. I didn’t.
CB: Who did —
SB: Regrettably.
CB: Yeah. Just come back to that but what happened? What? What rank was Ginger?
SB: My rank. Sergeant.
CB: Right.
SB: Then, well naturally we progressed after a year.
CB: Flight sergeant.
SB: Flight sergeant.
CB: And what happened to him after he was arrested?
SB: I did contact him once. Something went wrong. He went to St Athan. South Wales. I believe it was an engineering.
CB: It was an engineering school.
SB: I believe. I don’t know.
CB: It was the School of Engineering. Yes.
SB: I don’t know.
CB: Yeah.
SB: I don’t.
CB: Ok. I think just one other thing. Who did you keep in contact with in the crew after the war?
SB: Only one. Ron. Ron Munday. I think that old Fred went. That’s all.
CB: So immediately after the war you had no contact with anybody.
SB: Market Harborough I went to.
CB: Yeah. Right. We’ll stop there for a break. Thank you.
[recording paused]
SB: Gave me an order see.
CB: Right. So what, we’ve talked about the dangers of what you were doing and clearly there was some amazing escapes, but the care, the aircraft was a colander on some occasions. The crew sometimes got wounded. In your case were you ever hit? And on what was the trip on which it happened?
SB: Yes. I was. I was wounded. We’d been instructed to bomb Stettin. Which was quite close to the place where they was building doodlebugs.
CB: Peenemunde.
SB: And I was wounded in a rather delicate position. And I won’t say any more about that.
CB: But in your role as a mid-upper gunner where were you in relation to the dangerous parts of the aeroplane?
SB: Well, I was just forward — backward. Sorry. Backward it would be wouldn’t it? Backward of the bomb bay. You could say within feet. Within feet. I knew probably first one they dropped when they went up in the air the aeroplane went.
CB: So of all the crew when the bombs went you were the one most relieved.
SB: Yes. Yes. I was.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. On many occasions. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And how many hours did you have to endure your discomfort after being hit on the way back?
SB: Five or six. There was blood all in my flying boot.
CB: There was a first aid kit in the aircraft. There was a first aid kit in the aircraft.
SB: Yeah. You couldn’t get at it. Your parachute, you couldn’t get at that.
CB: Right.
SB: As a mid-upper gunner you know.
CB: You sat on your parachute.
SB: No.
CB: Oh you didn’t.
SB: No. That was the position. Just close to the rear door.
CB: Right. But you couldn’t use the first aid kit.
SB: No. No.
CB: Ok.
SB: I can well remember when I was wounded. They got me out the turret. My bomb aimer was one Taffy. Taffy Evans. I could hear him say to Ron, I was conscious enough at the time, and ‘We got him out.’
CB: So, they lifted you out of the turret.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Then what happened?
SB: They took me to the — we had a bed.
CB: Right.
SB: Just by the main spar. And they just whacked me on the bed.
CB: Right.
SB: That was it. And then I went to sleep.
CB: So nobody then went into the turret in your place.
SB: No.
CB: No.
SB: There was nobody available.
CB: When you got back to East Kirkby what happened then? What was the sequence of events?
SB: I haven’t got a clue. When I say I aint got a clue I know because of what I was told.
CB: Which was?
SB: Our ground crew were there with the ambulance, well they didn’t drive the ambulance but they were there to assist getting me out of the aeroplane into the ambulance. There was no standing on ceremony. They whipped me off to RAF Rauceby.
CB: Which is the hospital near Sleaford.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
CB: Right. And when you were in the hospital what happened there?
SB: I don’t know. Well, when I say I don’t know. I’d been patched up by then. I’d also picked up another. Classed as a wound. I burst an eardrum. Ron came down quite quickly to assist me. So the story went. And in doing so I wasn’t breathing properly and I burst this. Dead as a doornail. And I can always, I always remember what they did it last. Repaired me.
CB: Right.
SB: I can always remember the guy that did it. I thought he was a brute. He drilled a hole through the bridge of the nose and put a tube in. He said it was a silver tube. Up, connected on the tube. And he put the ball part of it under his white gown and he said, ‘When I raise my finger,’ he said, ‘You raise yours that you acknowledge.’ He said, ‘That’s saying it’s gone around and around the head and blown it back.’ And he were pumping away and I [pause] and he looked at me. He said, ‘Good God man,’ he said, ‘You look as if you’re going to bloody faint. Go and stand in the corner.’ And that was that. A few days later I was back on flying.
CB: Amazing. Thank you. Your dad. Yeah.
SB: It’s not [pause] My dad was in the fire watching. He used to have a, they used to have a bit of string with a box on with a gas mask. And I said to my dad because he was, he worked at the coal mine issuing lamps for the miners. And he used to have to be up about 3 o’clock to get these for the people to start at six. But I used to say to my dad, ‘It’s pointless you being up for the bombing raid. The fire warden in the street. I’ll sit on the wall outside and I’ll do your shift for you.’ [laughs]
Other: Really.
SB: Yeah. I did. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Because this is the bombing of Manchester and Liverpool.
SB: It was the bombing of Manchester or Liverpool. We were straight between them. I think it was like twenty eight miles to Liverpool.
CB: And they flew near you because of the Manchester Ship Canal.
SB: That’s right. Yeah. They used to be up and down the ship canal a lot. Or the River Mersey. The krauts were always up and down there. Of course, there was, you can well imagine I mean they didn’t get a free flight. They were always been shot at and the bloody shrapnel was around your house and — [laughs] You would get the odd broken window about. Yeah. Yeah. Those were the days Matt.
Other: I suppose coming over from Germany they didn’t have to fly over much land ‘til they got, even over on the west side of the country there wasn’t typically a wide bit of the country to get over was it? That we’d notice.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Stanley Bradford
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABradfordS161031
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:03:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Stanley Bradford was working in a Reserved Occupation until he volunteered. The three services were represented but as he approached them in turn the army and navy both rejected him because of his work. The RAF said that since he was in Reserved Occupation he could only join as a volunteer for aircrew. He duly volunteered and began training as an air gunner. He went on to shoot down five aircraft and was awarded the DFM. He was injured on one operation and as a result of the pilot’s rapid descent to help him Stan also suffered a burst eardrum. After one operation their flight engineer had a breakdown and was replaced by another engineer whose crew had been shot down. Flying over Sweden they found themselves escorted by the Swedes and also guided by a searchlight beam towards home. On another occasion they came under attack from anti-aircraft fire from the Channel Islands when their navigation equipment was damaged. They were met and escorted home by a Typhoon from RAF Exeter.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Sweden
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
animal
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
Do 217
fear
Fw 190
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 109
RAF East Kirkby
RAF hospital Rauceby
RAF Padgate
RAF Scampton
recruitment
searchlight
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/774/9294/PWoolfAS1701.2.jpg
937865517e51cdac6783016788d6dbbc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/774/9294/AWoolfAS170629.2.mp3
f7b928dc76dd339bfb8864372ebd8e47
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Woolf, Arthur Sidney
A S Woolf
Description
An account of the resource
23 items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Arthur Woolf (1922 - 2021, 1579552, 157533 Royal Air Force) his log book, a memoir, correspondence, documents, a newspaper cutting and photographs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 630 Squadron and became a member of the Guinea Pig Club.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Woolf and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Woolf, AS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: This is a recording for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive being carried out at Sutton Coldfield. It’s Thursday the 29th of June. It’s 12.05 and the interview is with Arthur Sidney Woolf. Flying officer with 630 Squadron who was also a Prisoner of War and a member of the Guinea Pig Club. The interviewer is Harry Bartlett. Right, Arthur. Not making too much noise standing it up. We’re on.
AW: Right.
HB: What, what I’d like to ask you first Arthur is what you were doing before the war and what led up to you joining the RAF?
AW: Well, before the war I was only a youngster. I went to ordinary elementary school. I passed with honours for secondary school as we used to call them in those days. My mother was seriously ill at the time with duodenal ulcers and wasn’t expected to live. And my opportunity went. My father couldn’t cope. So, I continued and I finally left ordinary elementary school at aged fourteen in 1936 and I applied for a job and retired in the Birmingham Despatch. There ain’t no Birmingham Despatch anymore because it was taken over by the Birmingham Mail.
HB: Right.
AW: But there used to be two separate evening papers in those days. Birmingham Despatch and the Birmingham Mail. And I saw they advertised there so I went up with my mum as we did in those days. And when I had a reply and was asked to go for an interview. And it was a little office in Colmore Row which is the business centre of Birmingham. And it was up on the third floor, and I went in and it turned out it was a local Friendly Society. Friendly Insurance Society called the British Workmen’s Friendly Society. Shift it where ever you want it. I’m telling you this by —
HB: Yeah.
AW: A matter of interest. It’s my story. Called the British Workmen’s Friendly Society and I was the office boy. There was only five of us there. I was only small and we had agents. Most of them, well a lot of them were spare time. We had an office in Tamworth and so we had part-time workers there who were in those days were mainly miners.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
AW: Because the mining industry was in Tamworth in those days. And they used to do this in their spare time to earn extra cash, you know. And so it was, it was a ruddy good training for me really. Throw that, throw that on your neck out the way.
HB: Oh. It’s alright.
AW: Ruddy good training. I was fourteen, you know. And I, and I was introduced into doing auditing of simple books. Shop keepers in Hockley and that sort of thing. One I remember particularly was we used to make biscuit, biscuit what do you call them? Biscuit what? I don’t know.
HB: Tins.
AW: Fancy like. They were very fancy.
HB: Oh. Oh.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Got nice wood and metal inlaid.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so forth. And that was one of the companies down in Hockley. And I used to go and audit the books. I mean at fifteen, you know what I mean, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And then I started taking some exams which was in the insurance side of the business. Friends Society, pensions, doctors, that type of thing, you know what I mean? We had agents’ loans part time. And I took my exams and did very well in them. Although I’d only had an elementary school education. But just I’m not shooting the sherbet here but I always did pretty well at school, you know. Then the war broke out didn’t it? I was seventeen. So I, and I was fed up to the teeth with this place. By this time two of the blokes out of the office, there was only five of us, two of them had been called up. That left three of us. All youngsters, you know. Oh and I was up to here with it. You know what I mean? I mean it was a good position because it was, it was a private company as well. They did accountancy. All via Jethro Kent. Jethro. There’s a name you don’t get very often. He was the old man. I mean I called him an old man. To me he was like Methuselah. Now I’m, now I’m much older than he was at the time. You know what I mean?
HB: Yeah.
AW: He was in his sixties or seventies. Walrus white moustache. Jethro. And his son, Kenneth G Kent, they were both qualified chartered accountants so they had a private accountancy business. And I got involved in doing a bit of auditing you see, as well as having to take exams to do with insurance and the law as far as insurance is concerned. I mean life insurance. Life assurance really because it was, you know it wasn’t insurance against accidents it was life assurance. And I got cheesed off to the teeth and the war had gone on, you know, started up and I thought oh bloody hell. I was dying, I was mad about aircraft. And I used to get home and I used to cycle to Castle Bromwich which is now a big housing estate but it was Castle Bromwich Airfield which was a pre-war place. No, no runways just, you know [pause] and I used to watch them during — even before the war broke out. They’d taxi across and up they’d go. The old biplanes, you know. Always fascinated by aircraft and flying. And I used to cycle to these and by this time of course there was [unclear] restrictions, but there was railings along the Kingsbury Road and I used to park my bike there and just watch the aircraft through the railings you know. They were Fairey Battles I think at that time which was never a very good aircraft anyway but I mean that was early in the war of course.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And then I met my girl who turned out to be my wife. We were married for fifty five years.
HB: Wow.
AW: We never had children but we loved each other very very much and she was my life you know. Anyway, she worked at Castle Bromwich Aeroplane Factory which is now Jam Jar.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Which is just down the road. Two or three miles down Chester Road. And she worked there. She was what they called a Hollerith worker. Have you ever heard of Hollerith?
HB: No.
AW: It was a punch system. Little, little machines. And they used to — not all the fingers. It was two or three fingers, that’s all. Punching cards. Holes in cards and then when you draw the machine and they were all shifted and— you know what I mean? And I met her by chance. Introduced to her actually by a friend. A mutual friend. Fell head over heels. She was a good looking girl I’ll tell you and — but I was dying to fly and I wanted to fly. And I thought well, I’m going to go in the RAF. So, when my time came I volunteered for aircrew. As you know there was only aircrew, only volunteers were ever accepted by RAF. And I had to go Viceroy Close which is a big block of flats. It’s still there in Birmingham. Just outside the city, which the RAF took over completely in those days. And part of the building was occupied by aircrew medicals. So when the papers come to go for an aircrew medical, you know. Cough and all the rest of it. But in between I had trouble with my ears. I’d had boils in my ears.
HB: Oh dear.
AW: Yeah. Very painful. And I was only a youngster, you know. And I thought I shan’t say anything about that, you know. No. I don’t want to risk the chance of getting into aircrew. So, finally come around to the hearing test. We were all civilian lads, you know seventeen or eighteen and so forth. And I went into this room and there was a flight lieutenant there and, ‘Name?’ Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he looked at me and he said, ‘Now, I want you to walk to the end of this room,’ which was a long narrow room, he said, ‘And face the wall.’ He said, ‘I’m going to say words to you and I want you to repeat them to me.’ So, I’m all ready. I’m going to do this test. So, I went to the other end and, ‘Stop.’ he said, ‘Now, face the wall,’ and he started, ‘Tomato. Potato.’ You know, similar type words and whispered like that. And my ears were aching with the desire to get the bloody thing right. You know what I mean? And it went on for some little time. He said, ‘Ok. Come back and I went back and he looks at me and looked in my ears with the old what do they call them? You know, when they look in your ears.
HB: Yeah.
AW: He said, ‘You’ve had trouble with your ears, haven’t you?’ And I thought, ‘Oh shit. He knows.’ [laughs] I said, ‘Well, yes. I had a boil,’ I said. You know, I didn’t tell him it was a series of them but, ‘I had a boil.’ ‘I thought as much,’ he said. He looked at the papers again. He looked at what he’d written down. And then he said, ‘I’m going to pass you,’ he said, ‘You’re on the borderline,’ he said, ‘For your ears.’ He said, ‘But I’m going to pass you,’ he said, ‘But I want you to know that if you have trouble with your ears when you start flying, if you get that far,’ he said, ‘It’s not the RAF’s fault.’ In other words they were washing their hands of any responsibility. You know. I thought, bastard [laughs] And so eventually I had, I had my calling up papers to go to report to Padgate in Lancashire. Just a Recruiting Centre, you know.
HB: Near Blackpool.
AW: Parade around. Nothing else.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I mean no airfield. Oh God, I was up to here. I was a very, I was a home loving boy really and I’d never gone far from home. You know what I mean? There’s only my brother and I. Just the two of us. My brother was four years older than me and he was already in the RAF. He didn’t fly but he went out to Egypt and Cairo [pause] Oh God, but anyway. He went out to the Middle East in the RAF and he was out there for a number of years. You know. And then my turn came. And I thought bloody hell. You know. So, Padgate. Oh God was I homesick. I really was. I mean bloody terrible bloody place. I don’t know whether it exists anymore as an RAF camp. I doubt it.
HB: No.
AW: It was just a training. A reception centre. You know what I mean? So, half the time I was walking around with RAF trousers on and my own jacket, you know, that sort of thing, because I hadn’t got everything. Oh dear. Oh dear. And three days before Christmas I had to go. 22nd of December which has lived in my memory ever since. I thought the sods. They could have waited. And I hadn’t too long met my wife Sheila and you know I was head over heels. I thought bloody hell. The sods. They could have waited until after Christmas at least, you know. Anyway, to cut a long story short that was the start of my RAF training. And it was quite long. It was nearly two years before I finally reached the squadron and was then flying in Ansons and all sorts. Dominies we flew in you know originally yeah as a wireless op. And finally went to Upper Heyford which is in Oxfordshire. And it’s, I don’t know, I think it’s still there.
HB: It’s still operative. Yes. It’s still operative.
AW: At Upper Heyford. And there I met all sorts of blokes there. There was rear gunners, mid-upper gunners, flight engineers, wireless ops, pilots, navigators, you name it. All the categories. And they just said to us, ‘Now, you’ve got forty eight hours to get crewed up. It’s up to you. You know. Mix around. Talk. And I want you all in sevens.’ You know, seven was a crew. He said, ‘And if you haven’t found a crew at the end of the forty eight hours you will be allocated to whatever’s left.’ So, of course nobody wanted that. They didn’t want that sort of stigma.
HB: No.
AW: Did they? You know what I mean? Anyway, I was, I went to bed that night. This was down at Upper Heyford. I was a sergeant at the time and next door to a fellow and he said, ‘Have you got crewed up yet?’ I said, ‘Bloody hell. No,’ I said, ‘I haven’t had a chance to even to talk to anybody yet properly.’ ‘Oh, I have,’ he said. ‘I’ve crewed up with a Yank.’ Of course, we all knew who the Yank was. He was in RAF uniform. He’d done like you said crossed into Canada and joined the RCAF. And so he’d got his RAF uniform on. I said, ‘Oh, I’ve seen him around.’ I said, ‘I’ve heard him talking.’ ‘Aye. A good guy,’ he said. He said, ‘Are you crewed up?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Are you interested?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ So, he took me along to, to see the pilot. Bill. And chatting and of course the long and the short of it we crewed up. And actually I finished up with two Canadians, two Yanks and three Brits in my crew.
HB: Wow.
AW: And one of them was a Welshmen. It’s amazing really. Yeah. And they were a great crowd of lads. They really were. But unfortunately when we were shot down both the mid-upper and the rear gunner were killed at the time we were shot down. You know. But —
HB: What were the names of your crew? The pilot was Bill.
AW: Bill Adams.
HB: Yeah.
AW: My navigator was, he lived at Radstock near Bath and he was the most difficult to find.
HB: Oh right.
AW: I don’t know why. I just couldn’t get any leads on to him. You know what I mean? Toogood his name was. T O O G O O D. George Toogood. Rear gunner — Ross Lough. L O U G H. And mid-upper gunner — Johnny Kiesow. Polish American. Yank, you know. Yank. He’d done the same as the pilot and gone into Canada, you know and so forth. Who have I missed out?
HB: Bomb aimer.
AW: Bomb aimer. Woody. Woody. Quite a character, Woody. Quite a character. He was the only other commissioned member of the crew. So, in the end there was just the two of us so we naturally sort of teamed up together. We were in the same mess and so forth, you know. He was quite a lad was Woody. And he came from Ontario. Have I missed anybody else out?
HB: Flight engineer.
AW: Flight engineer. Yes. He was bloody difficult to find and I found him in the end. He was in Canada. He’d gone to live in Canada. Bloody amazing, you know. His name escapes me at the moment I’m ashamed to say.
HB: No. No. No. No. That’s alright.
AW: He’s in there. I’m sure.
HB: Yeah.
AW: So, I found him and then afterwards I went to stay with my bomb aimer in Ontario with my wife. Went over and stayed with them. They invited us over, you know. And I also went to stay with my flight engineer who settled in bloody — right in the west side of Canada.
HB: British Columbia.
AW: Chilliwack. Chilliwack.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
AW: A place called Chilliwack.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Which is, you know not too far from the West, West Coast. Went to stay with him as well. I found them but it took me two or three years to find all of them, you know because when I was taken Prisoner of War of course I lost touch complete with everything.
HB: Who was Dickie Richardson?
AW: He was a wonderful character. He was a Guinea Pig.
HB: He was one of the Guinea Pigs. Right. I’ve gone a bit too far ahead.
AW: A blind guinea pig. A lovely, lovely lad. A great friend of mine.
HB: Yeah. I’m just trying —
AW: He was a wireless op. He got shot down. And the last thing he remembered seeing when he was shot down was a German soldier coming towards him on the road and his sight went. And he never saw again.
HB: Oh no.
AW: A great character. And no arm. No. One arm off up to there. But a wonderful character, you know. I was in the cellar for some time which I think I mention in there. When the Germans evacuated the hospital I was in in Nancy. They left four of us in the cellar with the French army doctor who’d been captured also, to look after us. And Dickie was one of those four. It was, it was quite an experience that was. We were there I think about ten or eleven days. Just below ground level. That’s all. The fighting was starting to come closer and closer. And I was thinking about all those bloody guns going off and so forth. Frightened you to death really when you’re lying helpless. Immoveable virtually in my case with this bloody great plaster cast on.
HB: Horrendous.
AW: And —
HB: But it, but so, so that was, that was obviously later.
AW: Yes.
HB: So, you’d gone to [pause] to crew up at Heyford.
AW: Upper Heyford. Yes.
HB: Did you stay at Heyford for OCU or did you —
AW: No.
HB: No.
AW: No. I’ve got them all listed actually somewhere but —
HB: No. No. Don’t worry about it at all because, because there’s all sorts —
AW: I’m just trying to think where I did my OC — oh dear, my memory’s going as I’m getting older.
HB: Well, AF, you did your AFU at Dumfries.
AW: Dumfries. That’s right. Yes.
HB: And you went to —
AW: Up to, up to was there —
HB: OTU at Upper Heyford.
AW: Upper Heyford.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I was just going to say. Yes. Yes, it was. That’s right.
HB: That’s was, oh that was when you were flying. You were doing OTU in Wellingtons and —
AW: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: Wimpies. Yeah.
AW: We started off with Dominies. De Havilland Dominies. Something else. Ansons.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And all the old. You know, and all the old —
HB: Yeah. All the old.
AW: Mind you they were a good reliable aircraft, you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: The old Anson. I mean it could go on forever. Fly on forever those Ansons would.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But it was — oh dear.
HB: So, so you crewed up there.
AW: Yeah. And then we moved as a crew.
HB: And then you went to — ah it says in here Wigsley.
AW: That’s right.
HB: That’s not a place I’ve heard of before.
AW: No. Well, it was only a temporary wartime place. It was in [pause] dear oh dear [pause] Nottinghamshire I think it was.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I think it Nottinghamshire.
HB: Because then because obviously you did that training and then you went to Syerston.
AW: Syerston.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah.
HB: And that was, that was —
AW: That was the flying. That was where we, we first went in Lancs.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Lancs. Yeah.
HB: Oh right, because —
AW: And then —
HB: It says in here, it says in here —
AW: If it says there it’s true.
HB: That you were posted there. Yeah. Yeah. It says here you did your, you did your conversion training consisting of sixteen hours.
AW: That’s all.
HB: Wow.
AW: That’s all.
HB: In two weeks.
AW: Yeah. I mean for the pilot as well. He’d got to go and fly in bloody ops.
HB: Yeah.
AW: In the aircraft. It was true. I mean, you know I’ve got the, after the war was over I wrote to the RAF and asked for a list of my postings and so forth, you know. Trainings. And I’ve got it. It’s in here
HB: Yeah. You’re service. Yeah. Your old service record.
AW: The old service record. That’s right. Yes.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: And it’s in there somewhere. I’ve got it.
HB: Oh, that’s great.
AW: So, you know, I mean, you know. Sixteen. It was nothing really.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Nothing.
HB: Sixteen hours.
AW: But in between that we had to fly [pause] do I mention it there? Bloody. Christ, come on.
HB: Stirlings.
AW: Stirlings. Nightmare. Nightmare. Bloody great big thing. And I mean, you know you’ve got no power at all really, you know. None at all.
HB: No.
AW: Chug chug chug and trying to reach a bloody flying height, you know. Hours. Literally hours. It was a bloody awful aircraft. It really was. And it was very huge and it stood quite a height from the ground, you know to get in to it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: And they were always having trouble with the undercart. The undercarriage was always failing. And even while we were converting on to them, that short course we had for the crew went round it. Another amendment to the bloody requirement of the undercart was going to be incorporated. It was a terrible bloody aircraft. I mean, you know it was a shocker.
HB: Yeah.
AW: God were we glad to get off those and get on to — and of course the Lanc, by comparison was, was beautiful.
HB: Yeah.
AW: It really was. There’s no other description for a Lancaster anyway.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: That’s my only description for a Lanc.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I mean Halifaxes were very very good and they were very near to it, you know. But I think, I think the Lanc just about had it. Beautiful. I’m sticking to that one. Whatever you think.
HB: Right. You can tell from my face then.
AW: And so eventually we got to the squadron which was East Kirkby. East Kirkby.
HB: That was, that was in 5 Group wasn’t it?
AW: Yes.
HB: With 630.
AW: Yeah. It was about thirty or forty miles from Lincoln. Yeah. And we did, on our sixteenth operation we got shot down on the way to Stuttgart.
HB: Yeah. You were in B Flight weren’t you there?
AW: Yes. That’s right.
HB: So you’d done — what was your first trip?
AW: First one.
HB: Your first trip. Your first op.
AW: I’ve got the —
HB: Sorry, I’ve got it here.
AW: I’ve got my notebook here.
HB: Saumur.
AW: Saumur. That’s right.
HB: In southern France.
AW: There was a big infantry —
HB: Yeah.
AW: German division there.
HB: Yeah.
AW: A crack division apparently. And we had to go and try and sort of stir them up a bit, you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah. Well, a lot of the flights I did actually were in France. To do with the battle across France.
HB: Yeah. What, what year would this be?
AW: ’44.
HB: Arthur. 1944.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah. And I got shot down on the 25th of July. The night of the 24th 25th of July was the night we were shot down.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah.
HB: What, what —on the lead up I’ve just noticed in here.
AW: Yeah.
HB: You were actually, you were actually involved in bombing the coastal batteries for D-Day.
AW: That’s right. And I’ve got the, I’ve got the Légion d’honneur medal from the French.
HB: Did you now?
AW: Yeah. Which I think is a lovely medal.
HB: Oh, that’s beautiful.
AW: Isn’t it.
HB: Yes. That is beautiful.
AW: Take it out if you want to.
HB: That’s absolutely superb. And that, and that’s obviously related to the D-Day.
AW: It was.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Only for the people involved in D-Day.
HB: Yeah. That’s absolutely superb.
AW: It’s a lovely medal that is, I think.
HB: What a beautiful —
AW: I’m not a medals man quite honestly. I’ve got my, my — the medals I was sent after the war, you know, that I was entitled to which was just the standard.
HB: Yeah.
AW: What do you call them?
HB: That’s a beautiful thing.
[rustling]
AW: Excuse me. These are those. That’s that. I received them in the same box. Way back at the end of the war. I mean —
HB: Absolutely.
AW: Compared with this they’re just — I didn’t even bother to mount them at all. You know, I thought well bloody hell. But that I thought was a lovely medal.
HB: So, that was —
AW: And —
HB: Yes.
AW: And if I can just show you something.
HB: Yes. Sure you can. Sure.
AW: The letter that came with it was fantastic I thought [pause] That’s, that’s the letter that came with it.
HB: I think, I think you ought to be reading that one out, don’t you?
AW: Do you?
HB: I think you ought to be reading that one out.
AW: Yeah. Well, if you think I should.
HB: Yeah. I think you should. But do you want to leave that? Do you want to leave that for a minute while we, while we just —
AW: Alright. Ok.
HB: Because that’s obviously June. That’s obviously June for D-Day and you were shot down the —
AW: 25th of July.
HB: 25th of July.
AW: ’44.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah.
HB: So, not long after.
AW: Yeah.
HB: So, so what were your memories of that particular op? Where were you headed for that?
AW: Heading to Stuttgart.
HB: Right.
AW: We never got there.
HB: Right.
AW: We were just in the, just approximately over the border between France and Germany and out of the blue a fighter comes up from below [noise] and and damaged the engines. I can’t remember which or which engine it were or how many there were damaged at the time but we started to lose height. You know, lose power. And the pilot said, ‘We’ll have to turn back. We’ll have to dump the bombs and turn back.’ So, the navigator sort of plotted as best he could some open ground as best as he could and dumped the bombs and turned back. But not long after we turned we started to lose height much more seriously. Got the order to bale out. And I was at the front but I was the last one of the front members apart from the pilot of course who stays with the end, to the end. And they were all sort of up the steps waiting to get out and all the, all the jettisoned the big hatch that you got, you fall through out the bottom of the Lanc. And I was behind them and I’d been hit on the hip here when the, when the fighter attacked us. And I say [whisper] right by the arsehole, you know. Had he been an inch to the right he’d have been right up inside me and that would have been the end of me. And I lost a lot of blood. And I felt myself, you know, I thought, ‘Christ, if they don’t hurry up I’ll never make this. I’ll never make it.’ And I don’t remember going out through the, through the hatch to tell you the truth. I can’t remember and I can’t remember coming down in the parachute. But I came around with the parachute all around me and my leg giving me hell. And it was dark and I thought, ‘Christ. How long have I been lying here?’ You know. Foreign country. I’m not, I wasn’t sure whether I was in Germany or France because we were somewhere near the borderline when we were attacked. I thought to myself, ‘Christ, what do I do?’ So, I went to get up and I thought, ‘Oh Jeez.’ I almost screamed with agony. I thought, ‘Bloody hell. I’ve popped my leg.’ It wasn’t a compound fracture. It was a plain facture but of course that’s the strongest bone in your body. Your femur. And that was the one I broke [noise] Didn’t realise it at the time. Just thought well you know I’ll be alright. Lie here a few days and if I can keep going for a few days it’ll get better and I’ll be able to try and make my way back home someway or other. You know what I mean? We all had had the lectures on this sort of thing of course. And I was lying there and I heard people talking. And I thought, aye aye. I heard a man and a woman’s voice and I thought [pause] ‘Don’t shout yet. Hang on. See whether they’re German or not.’ Because I wasn’t sure whether I’d landed, you know in Germany or France. Anyway, after a while I could hear them. To my mind it was obviously French they were speaking so I shouted. They came over and in the bloody pitch black. I was out in the wilds of somewhere. And the lady, that one the photograph there hugged me as though I was a long lost cousin or something. I suppose they were glad to have found somebody alive I suppose, you know. And then they chatted to each other. The man and the woman. They were brother and sister actually as it turned out. On that photograph. And he went. I don’t know where he went. I had no idea. I couldn’t understand a word they were saying. In those days anyway. And after a while he came back and he brought a step ladder with him. And they used that as a stretcher. And they lifted me on to it and I nearly yelled with agony. As they lifted you know I suppose ends of the bones you know. Jeez. Carried me, it seemed like an interminable distance. I don’t suppose it was that far but it was pretty rough terrain anyway. And then they opened the door and they put me in. It was a barn. And they gathered all the straw from the barn of the local hamlet. And they gathered all the straw together and puffed it up and they laid me on this. On this straw. And the lady there, she went away. The bloke stayed. Henri stayed with me. And she came back and she’d got some soup in a bowl. And another bowl with some water in it and cloths and she kept bathing my forehead, you know and feeding me soup. They were good to me. You know what I mean? They took a risk because they were in occupied France. It was in German occupied France. So they took a risk.
HB: Very much so.
AW: As I say, and years later I decided I’d like to try and find them and give them a proper thanks. And I’m going on holiday to Italy and we went that way when I’d found out where it was through the Red Cross. It took me ages and them ages to find out where I’d actually been. It was just a hamlet. Just two or three old old farmhouses, you know. Really old. And I wrote and told them with the aid of my colleague who spoke fluent French. He wrote it all out in French for me. And I explained that he was doing that in French so they’d understand it. And we finally went and we found it after some difficulty. Right in Eastern France. Right by the border virtually. And we had a hell of a day. I mean, I took English and French dictionaries with me, you know to try and help. And pencils and paper. Oh my God. We had some laughs, you know even though we couldn’t understand. We made each other understand mainly. But the old grandma there. Can you see her?
HB: Yeah.
AW: There. She was the grandma. She’d got, she’d got one tooth there. Just a pickled onion spear as I called it. And we had quite a day there. And we spent the whole day there. It was fabulous, you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so after that time I wrote to them and I sent them parcels because they were pretty tight for food.
HB: Yeah.
AW: The Germans —
HB: That was at Tramont-Lassus.
AW: That’s right.
HB: Near to Nancy.
AW: That’s right. Yes. I sent them food parcels and I kept quite a correspondence going with the aid of my colleague as I say who I worked with. But that died and faded after a while. You know, as things do, don’t they?
HB: Yeah.
AW: I’m sorry really because I would have liked to keep in touch with them. I wonder what’s happened to their family now. But when, when we went we were going on holiday to Italy and I’d routed it once I found out where it was and had to get a special map. It was a well-known map and people who sell maps. I forget their name.
HB: Michelin.
AW: Michelin.
HB: Michelin.
AW: Michelin map of that area. Just of that area. And I managed to get one. Sent for it and so forth. And I found out where it was so I routed it through this way and finally we, and I wrote and told them we were coming. It would be some time just after lunch but we couldn’t give the exact because we were coming right down from Calais you know. Right across France basically. Northern France. And drove up and came to the road leading to this little hamlet. And they were all out in the street. All out. And little tiny little toddlers who weren’t even born when I was shot down.
HB: Wonderful.
AW: And they got the bloody Tricolours and the Union Jacks. Fantastic. I felt too shy to get out the car almost. You know what I mean? They were absolutely fabulous. So, they told all the local people that I was coming, you know, ‘And this was the fellow who landed amongst us during the war.’
HB: Yeah.
AW: A fabulous time. We stayed at a hotel about ten miles away for the night. But we had a fabulous time. Although we didn’t speak each other’s language it was an enjoyable time.
HB: Yes.
AW: Because we were — you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: They were glad to see us. So, I visited them once or twice like that.
HB: Yeah.
AW: On different holidays that I was going on.
HB: Yeah. And how long, how long did they actually look after you for, Arthur?
AW: It was only the one night really.
HB: Right.
AW: The next day when I sort of woke up or came to in the morning. There was a little dirty window up in this loft. I can see the sun’s out because it was, it was summertime.
HB: Yeah.
AW: July ’44. And I thought, ‘Oh, look at that lovely sunshine. If I can get this leg right now I’ll be off.’ You know. I was thinking I could. Two of my crew did walk all the way to Switzerland by the way and got interned. Two of the crew.
HB: Did they?
AW: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But anyway, I thought that would be it. And then after a while, I forget what time it was. Late morning or some time before noon I heard some loud sighs and the door opened. A gendarme. The old French policeman came in who could speak a little bit of English. Not very much but a little bit. So, I suppose the rumour had got around that [pause] that I was there, you know what I mean? So, I thought, ‘Christ,’ you know, ‘If I’m not careful here he’ll tell the Germans and I’ve had it. I’ll be in a bloody Prisoner of War camp.’ And at that time the war didn’t look as though it was going to end next week. You know what I mean? I thought, oh Jeez, the thought of that. So, we got on alright and the lady came back again, you know. Rose. Bathing me and bringing me food to eat. And finally he went and I’m trying, the last thing I tried to impress on him, ‘Please don’t let the Germans know I’m here and as soon as I possibly can I’ll get off their hands,’ you know. Because they were taking a big risk. You know, by keeping me there and not telling the Germans they were taking a risk. Anyway, I mean the policeman must have realised I needed hospital treatment. I’d broken my bloody femur for Christ’s sake. You know what I mean? And after he’d gone, some time later, it was early afternoon I heard a vehicle pull up outside. A door opened. German soldier. I thought, ‘Oh no.’ I thought, ‘Oh, that’s it. Sod it.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I’ve had it.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I thought, ‘Oh bloody hell.’ Anyway, he’d got a mate with him and they’d got a little five hundred weight truck. Vehicle. Got a stretcher. Took me out. Put me in the back. Bloke got in to drive in the front and the other sat by me on a little seat at the side you know. And they took me to the hospital in Nancy. And I was the first Englishman in there. They’d got Prisoners of War but they were, a lot of them were French colonials. Frenchmen and French colonials who’d been captured in North Africa.
HB: Oh right.
AW: In Rommel’s do. You know what I mean, you know? And so I don’t remember much at all. They tell me I was delirious for nearly four days. Seven days. You know, I’d been shouting all sorts of things and I’ve, I have memories that I was in, somewhere in the Middle East going through my mind at that time during the delirium I had. You know what I mean? So it was then that I learned that I’d broken my femur, you know. So, the next thing I know I’m in traction. And they put a pin through the knee there. Right through that knee. And a weight at the end of a pulley over the end of the bed to pull the bone out so that it wouldn’t go back in the wrong position. So it would be like pulling it out to let it go back later in the correct position. Otherwise it would have been, you know, offset. And every time anybody walked by the bloody bed I was, ‘Don’t get near the bloody pulley for Christ’s sake.’ Because if they had touched it you know I felt it right up into my spine sort of thing.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And there was air raid warnings and Christ knows what while I was in this position. And they did once, when they, once they’d got me in to this plaster which they’d put on too bloody tight and it was agony they did carry me down to the cellar when the air raid warning went. And that was a nightmare because we had to go down steep stairs you know. And me inside this bloody plaster and oh Christ it was agony. I was down in this cellar and we could hear the planes going over. It was the German planes actually, I think. I’m not sure to tell you the truth. And finally they carried me back up there. And then the rumour went around, they’re leaving. ‘We’re all leaving. We’re all going. They’re taking us all into Germany.’ Well, they did. And four of us they left there. And as I say they left us in this cellar underneath the hospital. And some nuns came. I don’t know where they came from. Somewhere in Nancy. Came with food for us twice a day.
HB: But were they, were the medical staff, Arthur were they all French under German supervision?
AW: Yes. But they all went with them. They’d all, they had been captured at some time or other.
HB: Right.
AW: So, they all went back. They left one French doctor who’d been captured. I don’t know where. They left a French doctor to look after the four of us in the [pause] One was a Ginger haired fellow named Ginger who’d had his leg off to here. He’d trodden on a mine or something.
HB: Yeah.
AW: He was a soldier. Another one was a fighter pilot who flew in Mustangs or something like that. And he’d had to bale out. He’d been attacked and shot down. And as he baled out he hit the bloody tailplane with his stomach. And his stomach was a bloody mess so he couldn’t be moved. Then there was Dickie Richardson and myself. Dickie was a wireless op the same as me, in the RAF. And when he was shot down that’s when he was blinded.
HB: Yeah.
AW: The last thing he remembered seeing was a German soldier coming towards him along this road. And Dickie was in a hell of a mess. God. He had, at that time he’d had his hand off. They’d amputated his hand. Bald as a badger except that he was badly burned so it was all bandaged. And his face was a mess. They left a little hole there to feed him through a tube. And I was telling you about this chap before they moved us all into this cellar. There was four of us in this cellar. He said, This fella, he’s marvellous. He sings. He tries to sing and you know he’s got these terrible burns. He must be in agony.’ Anyway, he was there and it turns out he came from Worcester which is not too far from here.
HB: Yeah.
AW: So he knew Birmingham and he knew the Bull Ring in the city. So we, we naturally became buddies. You know what I mean?
HB: Yeah.
AW: And it was nice to talk to somebody who knew places. He knew places I knew and vice versa. We were down there for I think it was about ten or eleven days actually and we could hear the firing getting nearer and finally it was very near and it was like small arms fire. You know. And we’re only just below street level actually in this cellar. And this Ginger said, ‘Sorry. I’m going to have to find somebody to come down and help us,’ you know. We were stuck there and nobody knew we were there really except the doctor who’d been looking after and we don’t know what happened to him. Whether he went we don’t know. So he went, and I said, ‘Hey, don’t you forget us’, you know. I said, ‘We’re stuck down here and we’re relying on you to bring somebody.’ Anyway, he was away for about an hour or more and suddenly a bloody Yank appeared. A Yankee first lieutenant. Talk about John Wayne. He wasn’t as big as that but he was dressed like John Wayne would be if you imagine as he’d been in films about that.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And he was dirty looking and he just walked in. He must have come down the steps and he came along the corridor and into this, well a cell it was really. And he just went, ‘Hi fellas.’ We could have kissed him. Really. Out come the fags.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: He’d got a cigarette. Bloody Yank. He was wonderful. And he said, he said, ‘I can see you are all in trouble,’ he said, ‘Does anybody need anything urgently doing?’ I said, ‘Well, yes please.’ They put this plaster on and it came from here up right around across here and across the back and they put the edge of the plaster was where the bloody wound was. They’d put a dressing on, that’s all. And of course as it dried it curled in. You know. You’ve seen plasters do that? And it curled in on the bloody wound and I was in absolute agony. I mean I couldn’t turn over or anything. It was such a, I was stuck, you know, it was up to here.
HB: So, your left, your left foot, ankle, leg.
AW: Yes.
HB: Femur. Waist.
AW: Yeah.
HB: With a half cast around on your bum.
AW: Well, it came right around.
HB: And it came right up on to your chest. So you —
AW: Right across the bloody wound. I was in agony. I tried to sort of ease myself upwards inside the cast if you understand what I mean to get the weight off this bloody edge that was cutting into the bloody wound. So, when this Yank came he said, ‘Anything special you want doing?’ He said, ‘I’ll get you some medical attention. Is there anything I can do for you now?’ I said, ‘Yes. For Christ’s sake,’ I said, ‘I need somebody to look at my ass.’ I said, ‘I’m in trouble.’ He said, ‘Well, I can’t do that on my own.’ I said, ‘No. I understand.’ He said, ‘But I’ll bring somebody,’ he said, ‘I won’t desert you. I’ll bring somebody.’ And sure enough he went and they came back. All the Yankee medics and so forth. They were fantastic.
HB: Yeah.
AW: They carried us out. They had ambulances there. And they took us to a local field hospital under canvas. You know. And then I moved back through different field, American field hospitals. Getting further and further away from the actual fighting front. And I think it was, I think it was somewhere in the middle of France. Mid-northern France. With an air strip. And I was flown back in a Yankee plane. And I was the only Englishman, I told you on board. All the rest were Yanks and nearly all of them were infantrymen who’d just come direct from the front line. Wounded. Some of them badly, you know. And they took me to a little hospital. We landed somewhere near Reading. I don’t know where it was. Somewhere near Reading. And they took me to a local hospital and I was in this ward with nothing but Yanks. It was a Yankee hospital. But the next day I was taken by ambulance and then I went through a series of various hospitals. And finally I finished up at Wroughton RAF Hospital near Swindon. RAF officers ward if you don’t mind. Going up. And they looked at me. Took this plaster off and he said — the word he used was, ‘Christ,’ as he took the plaster off and saw my foot. I couldn’t see it at that time. I was lying up you know and it was, and it was just black. Solid black all around there and the back of my heel. It was gangrene. And then there was touch and go and then they said, ‘Oh, we can’t deal with that here. You’ll probably have to go to Archibald McIndoe’s place.’ I said, ‘Who? Never heard of him.’ ‘Archibald McIndoe.’ I said ‘Who’s that?’ ‘He’s a world famous plastic surgeon at East Grinstead.’ I said, ‘Well, where’s East Grinstead?’ He said, ‘It’s Sussex.’ ‘I don’t want to go down there.’ I was thinking of Sheila, my girlfriend coming to see me, you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And she never travelled on her own very much at all, you know. But anyway, they took me by ambulance then to East Grinstead and it was the best move I ever had really. You know. Fantastic. But it was a bit different because I’d been in a sort of orthopaedic ward. You know, broken limbs and so forth. And I moved into this ward down in East Grinstead and they got what they called the bug in. They got the bug. You know, which is very easy with burns you know. So everybody was walking around with masks on. All these nurses had masks over their faces. You now. Visitors had to wear a mask. And I thought, ‘Christ, this is serious [laughs] I don’t like this.’ Anyway, it was a wonderful wonderful wonderful place. It was really. I mean we were treated like, like sirs really, you know. We really were. Wonderful treatment. Wonderful wonderful man. And altogether I was about, I think about fourteen or fifteen months having treatment.
HB: When you first got there though and they put you in the ward. Who was in the bed next door but one?
AW: Next door but one was Dickie.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah. Fantastic. But he wasn’t in the bed. He was sitting by — there was just a stove. It was a wartime sort of place. Like a temporary, added on to the local cottage hospital in East Grinstead. And this fellow was there. They put me on an end bed. There was only about ten beds in the ward. There was five each side. Only a small wartime thing. And I saw this fellow sitting by the, by the stove. He’d got a dressing gown on. And he’d got an arm off up to, up to there at the time and his, his head was bandaged but I could see part of his face which was very very badly burned. And I thought, ‘I’ve got a feeling I know you.’ I knew him by his real name while we were in the cellar. Walter. Walter Richardson. Because Richardson — Richardson. Dickie. Dick. You know. And they were all calling him Dickie so I thought, crikey. Anyway, this nurse was sort of getting me settled in to the bed and tucking me in and I said to her, ‘That fellow by the, sitting by the stove there,’ I said, ‘Is his name Walter?’ ‘No. I don’t think so,’ she said, ‘We know him as Dickie.’ So, I thought, ‘It’s him. I can tell his voice,’ and so forth, you know. But he’d got his arm off to there. When I knew him he had just his hand off you know. So, I said, ‘Well, I think I know him,’ I said, ‘Could you bring him over to me?’ She said, ‘Yes, I’ll bring him.’ She said, ‘Come on Dickie. Somebody here wants to speak to you. He thinks he knows you.’ So, she led him over to my bed. And he leaned over like blind people do, you know. He couldn’t see. And I said, ‘Hello Walter, I bet you don’t know who this is.’ And he said, ‘Christ. It’s Red.’ And he recognised my voice. And it had been three or four months since we’d seen each other. We got separated, you know in various field hospitals as we moved because he was very very ill, Dickie was and so he didn’t make the same progress as I did. So I got flown back before he did. So, we never saw each other again then. And then I recognised him but he recognised my voice as soon as I, and the fact that I called him Walter I think did it. I said, ‘Hello Walter. I bet you don’t know who this is.’ ‘Christ almighty, it’s Red.’
HB: That was your nickname? Red.
AW: Well, yeah because in the cellar there were four of us. Two Gingers. And he called me Red and the other one Ginger.
HB: Right.
AW: Because he couldn’t see either of us. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah. And that’s the story really. You know.
HB: So, so you end up in East Grinstead.
AW: Yeah.
HB: With the, what was to become the Guinea Pig Club.
AW: That’s right.
HB: With Sir Arthur McIndoe.
AW: Archibald.
HB: Sorry.
AW: Archibald.
HB: Archibald McIndoe.
AW: Yeah. Wonderful wonderful man.
HB: And, and so he, they actually saved your leg.
AW: Oh, no doubt about it. No doubt about that. It was due for an amputation. But there was a wonderful sister there. Nursing sister. She was, I suppose she was late forties. A Scots girl. Had a sweet voice. And she used to come and dress my leg three or four times a day. My foot. And they tried all sorts of things, you know. Of course this was when penicillin was just, at the time penicillin was new. Oh, this is it. Shall I do it for you, you know. It made a mess of my foot. Penicillin. I’m penicillin allergic.
HB: Oh right.
AW: Didn’t know it then because it was very early days of penicillin. And they tried all and in the end she tried a mixture of, I can’t remember all of it but it had liquid paraffin and something else and something else. I don’t know what the other two were. I know liquid paraffin was. And they just soaked muslin in it you know and made a pad and put it on there and there and bandaged it. And after two or three days when they took it off there was bits of it. Bits of the shit, you know on it. And they said, ‘It’s coming away. It’s coming away.’ And they did that for weeks and weeks until they finally got it completely just and then I had plastic surgery. And what they did, they took — I don’t know whether you can see, Harry. I don’t want to bore you with it. But —
HB: No. No. I’m not bored.
AW: That’s my good leg.
HB: Oh right. So that’s where, so that’s where they took the skin from.
AW: That’s right. Yeah. Can you see that patch?
HB: Good grief.
AW: And can you see that at the back?
HB: Yeah.
AW: That there.
HB: So that came, that —
AW: What they did, they cut because that’s an S. I don’t know whether you can see. It goes around there.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Like that. They opened that flap there and that flap there. Put my foot in it like that.
HB: Pull along there.
AW: Cast around there so I couldn’t move it and I was stuck like that for about two months.
HB: So, they, they —
AW: And they, and they had me suspended over, or my legs suspended from a bar that they construct over the bed vertically.
HB: So, the living flesh from your right leg.
AW: Grew.
HB: Was connected to your left leg.
AW: That’s where that came from you see.
HB: And grew.
AW: That’s right.
HB: And then at some stage —
AW: They disconnected. And that’s it.
HB: Came along with a big pair of scissors.
AW: It took a long while.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I was there fifteen months altogether.
HB: Wow. And it’s —
AW: And unfortunately that foot, that leg’s about three quarters of an inch shorter than the other one but it doesn’t matter.
HB: Well, that’s —
AW: But you can see —
HB: Incredible.
AW: The only thing is that gets very dry. That there.
HB: Yeah.
AW: It gets very dry and it cracks sometimes and I have to wear a plaster on it, you know. It gets sore.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But I mean I had a lucky — I mean I was as near as damn it to having it amputated.
HB: Yeah. I mean, that’s that I mean.
AW: They did wonderful work.
HB: I mean, I know, I know it’s a lot of years ago but it’s just amazing really to to —
AW: Well, you can see, can’t you?
HB: To see that.
AW: You can see the patch, can’t you?
HB: Yeah.
AW: You can see that’s where it’s come from.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And around there like a letter S and that that way, that that way. Stuck my foot in it, for the want of a better word. Stitched it all up. Put some plaster around here so I couldn’t move.
HB: And that was it.
AW: And suspend it. Well, didn’t suspend me exactly but my feet and legs were up.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I lay on my back like that.
HB: Good grief.
AW: So when I wanted a pee or a shit I was in trouble.
HB: Well, yeah.
AW: You can imagine can’t you?
HB: Yeah.
AW: And that went on for two months.
HB: Yeah. Never mind nil by mouth.
AW: [laughs] Oh dear. Oh, it’s a long —
HB: That’s, that’s amazing.
AW: That’s a long story but —
HB: No. No. No. Its —
AW: And that’s why I’m a Guinea Pig.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And —
HB: And that’s, and that’s obviously the Guinea Pig Club.
AW: That’s it.
HB: That’s it.
AW: Fantastic.
HB: And you’re one of, one of the survivors.
AW: Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, yes. I mean, I’m very fortunate but most of the lads in the Guinea Pig Club were badly burned. You know. Badly burned. Like Dickie. But he lived for some years. He had twins.
HB: Did he?
AW: Yeah. A boy and a girl. Yeah.
HB: Oh lovely.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Fantastic.
HB: So, while all this was going on. Right.
AW: Yes.
HB: I’m just picturing the scene now.
AW: Yes. That’s alright, Harry. Yeah.
HB: 630 Squadron. You’re flying.
AW: Do you want a cup of coffee by the way?
HB: We’ll have a break. We’ll have a break
AW: Ok. We’ll carry on talking.
HB: We’re having a, we’re having a scene here of you’re flying on ops, you’re writing to Sheila.
AW: Yes.
HB: Right. And you’re keeping in contact.
AW: That’s right. Yes.
HB: You’ve obviously had a few leaves and what not. So, you come back from France.
AW: Yes.
HB: And you’re in East Grinstead.
AW: I went to Wroughton first.
HB: Well, yeah. To Wroughton.
AW: Orthopaedic.
HB: How, how did, how did Sheila take it?
AW: She took it bloody well and she waited for me.
HB: Good girl. Yeah.
AW: She did. I’ll just tell you this little bit. I was, when I was flown back from France I was put in some local hospital near, somewhere near Reading. But it was only for the one night. The next day by ambulance I was taken to Wroughton.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Officer’s ward. RAF officer’s ward.
HB: What rank were you when you were shot down?
AW: Flying officer.
HB: You were flying officer when you were shot down.
AW: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Right. So you’re in the posh bit now.
AW: So I’m in the — yeah. And there were all sorts of cases. They were mostly orthopaedic cases in there. But anyway I’ve got the letter I wrote to my mum and dad from there. It’s in pencil because I was lying on my back in this plaster.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And I couldn’t. I had to write like this, you know. It was very difficult.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: The paper keeps falling. It’s all in, all in pencil. And I wrote and told them where I was and I said, “As far as I know it’s a few miles from Swindon. It’s called Wroughton.” And of course my mum and dad hadn’t heard a word about me. They didn’t know whether I was dead or not. All they were told I was missing. I’ll show you something if I may. I’m sorry to delay this.
HB: No. No. No.
AW: You may be on your way.
HB: No. No. My time is yours, Arthur.
AW: If I’ve got it. Somewhere I have, I’m sure. I’ve got all the telegrams and so forth that went backwards and forwards, you know.
HB: Right.
AW: At the time. I think that’s the one. This is a telegram in those days. Look. Post Office.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Telegram.
HB: Tiny little envelope.
AW: Yeah. [pause] Can you read it?
HB: It’s very faded now isn’t it?
AW: It is. Yes.
HB: Right.
AW: Read it.
HB: BM priority CC Mr C Woolf.
AW: That’s my father. Charles.
HB: 31 Ismere Road.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Erdington.
AW: That’s right.
HB: “Deeply regret to inform you that your son Flying Officer Arthur S Woolf is missing from operations on the night of the 24th 25th of July 1944. Please accept my profound sympathy. Letter follows pending receipt of written notification from the Air Ministry. No information should be given to the press. Officer commanding 630 Squadron.”
AW: Yeah. That was the first my mum — and I hadn’t even told them I was flying on ops.
HB: Oh.
AW: So, you can imagine. Well, I didn’t want to worry them. I knew they’d worry to death. My older brother was in the far, the Middle East and I didn’t want to worry them. They knew I was flying. I said I was. I kept telling them I was still on a different course. Which I did go on quite a lot of training courses. So, when they got that you can imagine. My God.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I perhaps should have told them I was on ops, you know. Really. So they could have been prepared.
HB: It come as a bit of a shock.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Yes.
AW: A hell of a shock.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Oh dear. But there you are.
HB: So, so by then did, did Sheila, Sheila know your mum and dad quite well by then?
AW: Oh yes. She did. She did. She knew them —
HB: Had you got —
AW: And on the letters and that I sent I always put on the end, tell — “advise Sheila,” you know.
HB: Right.
AW: And they knew where she lived.
HB: So, had you and Sheila got an understanding by this stage? Or —
AW: Well —
HB: Were you still just a courting couple?
AW: Oh, we were still courting I think.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah. Yeah. But we always, both of us always felt there was nobody else. You know what I mean?
HB: Yeah.
AW: So that was it. Yeah. Then this is one, “Arrived England.”
HB: This is another telegram.
AW: This is from me.
HB: This is from you.
AW: This is for mom and dad. Mr and Mrs Woolf. “Arrived England. Address RAF Hospital, Wroughton, Swindon, Wilts. Alright except for a broken leg. Please inform Sheila — Arthur.” [laughs]
HB: [laughs] All right except for a broken leg.
AW: You can’t get, you can’t get much terser than that can you? [laughs]
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Oh dear.
HB: It’s like —
AW: This is the bit I was going to tell you. So, I was very very pale because I hadn’t been out in the open air at all. Been in the cellar and prior to that in the ward so I’d never been in the open air and sister said, ‘You could do with some fresh air. We’ll have you moved. We’ll put you out on the balcony tomorrow or something.’ ‘Ok.’ Sort of thing. And so I’m on the balcony in my bed and by this time, oh that’s right I still had the plaster on me. No. I hadn’t. I’d had the plaster off by then. So I was half sitting up in the bed. Like this, you know. And I saw my mum and dad. They were quite big grounds to the hospital at Wroughton. Gardens and so forth. And they were coming in this bloody main path with Sheila. Walking up and suddenly my dad caught sight of me and he paused and he ran.
HB: Oh bless.
AW: Oh, grand, you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And they came up. Oh God. You can imagine the reunion. They thought I was gone and missing and dead and so forth. You know. So it was a wonderful moment that was that will live in my memory forever. Absolutely.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: So, I’ve got all sorts of letters and things here but [pause] no.
HB: Do you want, do you want to have a break for a coffee?
AW: Ok. I’ll go and make a coffee. How do you like your coffee, Harry?
HB: Let me just pause this. I’m just — it’s, the time now is —
AW: Are you alright for time?
HB: 13.05. So, I’m just going to pause while we have a comfort break.
[recording paused]
HB: Recommencing the interview. The time is 1.40 and we’re suitably refreshed.
AW: I’m taking all your day up.
HB: Well, we’ve had an interesting chat while we’ve been having a coffee. Just go back over a couple of things.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Arthur. When you, when you started off with 630.
AW: Yes.
HB: At East Kirby.
AW: It’s Kirkby.
HB: Sorry. East Kirkby.
AW: It’s got two Ks.
HB: Yeah. Your, your crew was formed and trained by then and you then did sixteen ops.
AW: Yes.
HB: So, what, what sort of areas did you go to for your ops?
AW: Mainly France.
HB: Mainly France.
AW: Because it was to back up the troops.
HB: Yeah. And in what, what year? This was in 1944.
AW: ’44. ’44.
HB: Right.
AW: When the invasion had taken place which I was involved in, on — that’s why I’ve got that medal.
HB: Yeah.
AW: On the sort of July. June. And then much of it was to do with backing up army movements.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so forth. We did one daylight road on an aircraft factory just somewhere north of Paris. And we did one other daylight raid which was [pause] I can’t tell you, can I?
HB: You can.
AW: It’s in my log isn’t it?
HB: You can because I’ve got your logbook there.
AW: Which is quite something to see it, to actually see the bloody — where you were going.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Where am I? Where am I? Where am I? [pause] I’ll have to put my specs on.
HB: Here you are.
AW: Specs on.
HB: There you go.
AW: Sorry.
HB: I’ve got it. I’ve got it for you. Yeah. I’ll hold it.
AW: Yes. I had my eyes done. Started in January. I finished about a month ago.
HB: Right. Yeah. Well, they’re certainly working.
AW: I’m a sucker for — now where was it? [pause] Now then, I’m not sure which one of those two it was but it’s in the book. It’s in the book.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Hang on. Hang on. It’s in the book. That’s why I check this book.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Because they went on the same ops as we did virtually most of the time. You know what I mean? [pause] I’ll tell you the toughest. The toughest place we went to was a place called Wesseling in Germany.
HB: Wesseling.
AW: Yes. W E S S E L I N G. Wesseling. And I’ve never seen so many aircraft shot down. The flak as well as the night fighter interception on part of the route was absolutely enormous. We were over this place. Wesseling. It was an oil refinery or something and bloody hell the planes were going down all around us. They really were. And we never got a touch. Never got a scratch. It’s just fate isn’t it?
HB: Yeah.
AW: It’s fate.
HB: Yeah.
AW: There’s no accounting for it.
HB: Because —
AW: We lost a lot of aircraft that night.
HB: Yeah.
AW: If I remember correctly.
HB: Because I’ve had a quick look in your logbook there. You didn’t really get any damage until you were actually shot down.
AW: No. We did have. We were attacked on one other occasion but oh dear, what was it? It was used for — but oh God I’ve forgotten. We were, we really thought we’d had it.
HB: Right.
AW: It came out of nowhere, you know. Because the trouble with the Lancaster — its blind spot was below. You know, you didn’t, you know, you couldn’t, nobody could really see down below. You know. And there were all sorts of things thought about and tried in that respect but we had this bloody set to with this plane and I thought Christ we’ve had it. And in the end the mid-upper gunner who got killed — Johnny Kiesow. He got it.
HB: He shot it down.
AW: Yeah. It was never confirmed because we didn’t actually see it hit the ground.
HB: Right.
AW: But we saw. I got up in the astrodome because it was right by my station and I watched it and I saw it start smoking and then flames coming out of it and it went and it disappeared in the clouds. But never saw it actually crash and they won’t give it you, you know.
HB: No. No.
AW: They wouldn’t give it him.
HB: And that, you didn’t, you didn’t put that in your logbook did you?
AW: I can’t remember which one it was. I can’t remember which one it was now. It’s so long ago, quite honestly.
HB: Yeah. Well, it is a while ago [laughs]
AW: It was over, it was over, well yes [laughs] it was over France. I can tell you that much. Yeah.
AW: Now, where would it be?
HB: I couldn’t — I didn’t notice anything about that in your logbook when I flicked through it. No. No.
AW: I can’t remember which one it was to tell you the honest truth. I’m ashamed to say.
HB: Yeah. No. It’s, I mean you know it’s but that’s the thing about your guy’s logbooks.
AW: I mean and the next morning we went down to the flight office and see the aircraft and you could see bullet holes all through. Yet none of us were injured. None of us got hurt.
AW: Amazing, isn’t it?
HB: We were bloody close to it, you know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: It’s amazing really, you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And —
HB: So —
AW: But that was a blind spot with the Lanc was below.
HB: Yeah.
AW: A bad blind spot really. But there you are.
HB: Because the plane that got you had got one of these —
AW: I assume it was. What did they call them? The German term isn’t there? Is there a term for it? The German. Bloody hell.
HB: Was it nacht musik or something?
AW: Something. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Not quite like that. But yeah it already fires upwards.
HB: Yeah. It’s —
AW: And its almost certainly that’s what did get us.
HB: Yeah. So, when, when you were actually on that particular raid and you were then attacked —
AW: Yeah.
HB: Did you lose your air gunners then or did you — ?
AW: No.
HB: Or did they —
AW: I can’t remember but —
HB: Right.
AW: No. I don’t remember to be honest.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But I have a feeling it was afterwards.
HB: Right. When, when —
AW: Because I don’t remember anybody saying, you know.
HB: No.
AW: Anything about them being injured. Or anything at all.
HB: And obviously with you being wounded.
AW: Yeah. Exactly.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: So, I don’t really honestly know.
HB: Yeah. So, out of your crew —
AW: I’m the only one left.
HB: You’re the only one that’s left alive now. The — it was only the two gunners that were killed.
AW: Yes. That’s right. The mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner.
HB: And the rest of your crew landed.
AW: Yes.
HB: Parachuted.
AW: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
HB: And, and you say two of them managed to walk away and evade.
AW: Yes. Yes, that was quite an interesting story. In fact, he did write about it. George did. It’s funny. They landed by parachute of course.
HB: Yeah.
AW: They told me this afterwards. Years afterwards. Landed by parachute and —
HB: So that’s Arthur who’s known as George Toogood.
AW: Joe. Joe Toogood.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And Woody. And so Woody sort of walked down this lane. Got his parachute all collected up and so forth and buried it or did something. I don’t know what he did with it. And he thought, ‘Now, what the bloody hell do I do?’ So, he saw the milestones. You know France is full of milestones, isn’t it?
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Kilometre stones I should say. And he was just bending down like to try and see because it was dark still. A voice said, ‘Hello Woody.’ [laughs] He said, ‘I nearly shit myself.’ [laughs] All quiet, you know. You could just imagine, can’t you?
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Oh dear. Oh dear. So, anyway —
HB: So, that was the bomb aimer and the navigator.
AW: Anyway, and that’s quite an interesting story actually.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: The trials and tribulations. They walked in to Switzerland which is some way to walk. They walked at night when they possibly could and they hid in haystacks. They ate all sorts of bloody stuff because they were starving. They even knocked up people. Took a chance. They were so desperate for something to eat and a proper nights’ rest. You know. They knocked up French people who didn’t trust them and that sort of thing. You know what I mean? It was quite interesting.
HB: Yeah.
AW: They finally got to Switzerland. They had a bloody good time there. Food. Food. You know, fantastic.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Absolutely fantastic. So, they got away with it and they —
HB: So you’ve got, the two Canadians you’d got in your crew. Could either of them speak French?
AW: No.
HB: Oh.
AW: No.
HB: Oh right.
AW: No. Not to my knowledge. No. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t.
HB: So, then, so they got to Switzerland with no language skills whatsoever.
AW: That’s right. Whether they knew a bit of French.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Being from Ontario and around there you know. Quebec is the big place for French, isn’t it?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: I don’t know. But they had some trials and tribulations. And some near misses I think as well. But they made it anyway. But the Swiss weren’t very receptive at all. They had a hell of a job getting into Switzerland when they got there.
HB: Oh.
AW: Yeah. I’ve got that story. I don’t know if I’ve got it unfortunately. I don’t know what happened to it.
HB: So they’ve, so —
AW: They had quite a job. The bloody Swiss were most suspicious and wouldn’t —
HB: Yeah.
AW: Wouldn’t let them in and so forth. But eventually they had them in and they were in a little hotel up in the mountains overlooking the lake and God knows what else. You know. I said, ‘Some of us have got it made.’ [laughs]
HB: Yeah. Yeah. You were in —
AW: There was me suffering.
HB: And you’re in, you’re in a basement in Nancy.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that was, that was being, coming to the end of those sixteen ops.
AW: Yes.
HB: Obviously they’re going through Europe. And you were just, you were telling me about how your mum and dad got to know through the pilot. Your mum got to know through the pilot.
AW: Oh yes. Yeah. Well, they hadn’t heard anything officially and my dad kept writing and that sort of thing. You know. There were no phones.
HB: I think you’ll have to explain how your pilot actually got back to England.
AW: Oh, well yes. As I say he was in Eastern France. A Yank. And of course they could hear gunfire and so forth getting nearer and nearer. And he knew what it was. It was the advance, you know. And he must have known also it was the Yanks in that part of the, France. And he got a bicycle. I don’t know whether he had use of that while he was with this farming family and he got off and he cycled and met the Yanks. And met up with the troops and so forth and they saw him safely through the lines sort of thing. The next thing he knows he’s back in England and he went back to the, to the squadron. And after a while he had a, he was granted a leave and I think it was a fairly long leave of absence. Then he was instructed to go back to the Pathfinder squadron. And that’s where and he did — I don’t think he did a full tour. He did a few ops with them with a different crew.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Which I didn’t like.
HB: No.
AW: I didn’t like that. The fact that he, you know he was going some but there you are, you know. There’s nothing you can do about it. It’s stupid really.
HB: So he came, so he came back to England.
AW: Yes.
HB: And he’s heading back for this and he’s got a bit of leave and he ends up in —
AW: What’s the name of the —
HB: In Birmingham. Walking down your front path.
AW: Oh yes. With my mum. Yeah. As I say so he stayed with them two or three nights. And I told you about the tomato didn’t I?
HB: Yeah. Well, yeah.
AW: [unclear]
HB: I think, I think you probably, you know, there’s your mum.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Standing looking out the window.
AW: That’s right.
HB: And this big handsome American turns up.
AW: Yeah. She saw this big tall fellow at the gate because we had a fairly long front garden. And she thought, ‘Oh, he’s in uniform. American uniform.’ And she thought, ‘That’s Bill. It’s got to be Bill,’ because she knew he was tall and so forth. She’d never seen him. And she rushed to the front door and almost dragged him into the house she said. Just opened it. There’s some news of me. And he had news from me. Apparently, there was a grapevine somewhere when he was living with this family. He’d heard that one of the crew had got a broken leg and was taken to hospital. They thought it was in Nancy. They weren’t sure. And they were pretty sure it was me. So, he told her that I was ok but I’d got a broken leg and of course I’d worse trouble I think because of the plaster causing all my problems.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Not the broken leg. I mean that cured. It heals anyway.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And he stayed with them and they had a good time together. He took them out drinking and God knows what else. You know what I mean?
HB: Yeah.
AW: So he enjoyed himself. And finally when he was posted back to the squadron he went to a Pathfinder squadron.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And he had another crew. So, I assume, I don’t know, he probably took the part of some other pilot who had been killed or something or lost in some way. And he took over this crew.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And I’ve even seen a photograph of it. Don’t like them [laughs]
HB: Nicked your pilot [laughs] Stole your pilot.
AW: That’s right. Stole him.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s ok. So when you’ve, you were coming to the end of your time in East Grinstead and at some stage obviously you were discharged. I think you said fifteen, sixteen months or something.
AW: Yes. It was.
HB: And you were, so you were discharged from East Grinstead. From —
AW: That’s right.
HB: Archibald McIndoe’s —
AW: That’s right.
HB: Thing. And you, where did you go back to then?
AW: I went back to the original place I’d worked at as an office boy.
HB: No. Sorry. I mean did, did you go back to squadron before, before you were —
AW: No. I went afterwards.
HB: Right.
AW: I went to have a look over it to see.
HB: Yeah. So, you were demobbed from East Grinstead.
AW: Well, I had to go. I was at home. They sent me home on leave.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Pending discharge sort of thing.
HB: Right. Yeah.
AW: And then I had a letter saying I was — my, my commission had ended on such and such a date.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I can’t — well I think I’ve got it somewhere.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And then I had instruction to go to Hednesford I think it was. In the Black Country. Where they had [pause] with all the suits.
HB: Oh.
AW: What do you call it?
HB: Your demob suit. Yeah.
AW: Oh God.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I hated that. Hated it.
HB: Tell me what hat? What hat did you get, Arthur?
AW: I got —
HB: A trilby?
AW: I don’t think I did get one. I don’t think I wanted one. You know. I’ve been used to wearing of course the old officer’s cap.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But I didn’t fancy trilbies and things. I don’t think I bothered with that.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But it wasn’t very far from Birmingham. It was Hednesford or somewhere like that where they set up this discharge sort of camp, you know. And oh, it was bloody awful. All these bloody raggy suits and boots and oh gee.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Horrible. Not used to it.
HB: So, so you obviously went through there and you got your demob.
AW: Yeah.
HB: And you then, you’re looking for work.
AW: Well, my firm where I’d worked as an office boy but I left them to go to work at Castle Bromwich aeroplane factory. I told you, didn’t I?
HB: Yeah.
AW: Did I tell you about that?
HB: Yeah.
AW: Because Sheila worked there.
HB: Yeah.
AW: That’s why I went.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But the original firm I worked for as an office boy in Colmore Row someone got to know that I was home and wrote and said the position was there for me if I wanted it. So, I went back there. Biggest mistake I ever made really. Well, I felt it was bloody awful. I told you there was only about five of us on the staff anyway and so during the war while I’d been away and the others had been away they’d only had youngsters and the bloody records and things had gone to pot. You know what I mean? And an insurance company needs records.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Like nobody’s business. Oh, and I was, oh bloody hell. I thought I’ll never stand this. I can’t stand this. This is not what I want to do. And you know, do you know Birmingham centre?
HB: I know a little bit about Birmingham.
AW: Do you know Colmore Row?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Well, I was in Colmore Row. Near this Edward Square where the Council House is and this sort of thing.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: And right opposite they’d opened a Milk Bar which was a fairly new things in those days. A Milk Bar. So, I said, ‘Oh, sod this.’ I used to go down in the lift and go down to the Milk Bar. Middle of the day or whatever time, you know. There was nobody else around. And it was such a, such a nightmare of a task to try and sort out on my own the bloody mess that the office records there had got in to. You know what I mean? And I thought, ‘Christ, I can’t stand this.’ And I thought, ‘I don’t know what the bloody hell so I’ll go in the Milk Bar and have a milkshake and think about it.’
HB: Yeah.
AW: But in the end I stuck it out for some time. Took exams. Insurance exams. Which I passed.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so forth. And [pause] and then I, as I say I was at, I never really settled in there after the war really.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But my brother, who’s now passed away of course, he was four years older than me he was the purchasing manager at — do you know Schrader Tyre Valves?
HB: Yeah. I’ve heard of Schrader. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: And he said, well he knew I was unsettled, he said, he said, ‘We’ve got a job going,’ he said, ‘Export manager. He said, ‘But I’ve nothing to do with it,’ he said, ‘But, you know.’ So, I applied for it and I got it. And then I travelled all over the world.
HB: Oh right.
AW: I’ve been all over the world. I was with them for a number of years ‘til I got fed up with travelling. I went to pretty well all, all parts of the world other than I never went to Australia or New Zealand but other parts — South America. You name it I travelled.
HB: Did you go back to Germany?
AW: No. I went to Germany but only for an exhibition that was on.
HB: Right.
AW: To do with driers and so forth.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know. But I did travel all over the world and you know on a large number of visits shall we say.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Got fed up in the end with that. And I thought, ‘Well, Christ I can’t stand this for the rest of my — ‘til I retire. It’s not possible.’ And so when I was at home, you know I spent about on an average at that time six months out of the twelve abroad. Which is a lot. My wife was on her own. Well, she had a good position herself but I mean she had no family. You know what I mean? And I thought this isn’t right. So, I began to look in the papers when I was at home for something worth going, going after you know. And I saw this advert and it was in the, I think it was the Birmingham Post and it said that they had a director who was due to retire from age who was in charge of all the commercial aspects of the company. And that they were looking for a suitable replacement. To train if necessary. So I thought I’ll have a go at that. Anyway, I got a letter to go for an interview and it was in the Black Country. Bloody hell. I didn’t know the Black Country. Do you? Do you know the Black Country?
HB: Well, a little bit.
AW: It’s a land of its own isn’t it?
HB: That’s when you need your language skills.
AW: Absolutely. Anyway, to cut a long story short I had to go for a second interview and I found this company. It was called Alloy Wire Company and they draw wire nickel chrome wires cold through diamond dies to, fine as your hair.
HB: Blimey.
AW: Absolutely, you know —
HB: Yeah.
AW: Quite, quite technically good stuff. I had to go for a second interview and I was getting on for fifty by this time, you know. And I thought, Christ I, you know. I can’t stick this ‘til I’m sixty five and retirement age. So I went and I had a second interview. And I got on very well at the second interview and they seemed very pleased with me. And it was for a take charge of all the commercial aspects of the company. You know. Books. The lot. Which I was capable of doing. I went to night school.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so forth in the earlier years and so forth. And I got the job and I spent the rest of my working life there.
HB: Oh right.
AW: Fantastic.
HB: When —
AW: So I spent about fifteen years there and what a crowd of —
HB: When did you, when did you actually marry Sheila?
AW: I married her in 1945.
HB: Brilliant.
AW: After the war. After I was out the RAF. She wanted to get married before and I said no. It wasn’t right.
HB: No.
AW: You know, I’d heard and know about young girl’s being left as widows.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know, and it —
HB: So you were still recovering from your injuries when you got married.
AW: Well, I was. I was on a walking stick. I didn’t show you the photographs but yes I was still using the walking stick.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Yeah.
HB: That’s —
AW: We got married in Erdington which was a suburb of Birmingham.
HB: Yeah. Can I just take you back?
AW: Yes.
HB: To one, one part. Because while, while we were having our coffee you were showing me you’ve got a piece of your aircraft.
AW: Yes.
HB: And it was interesting. You touched on calling in on the family that looked after you when you first landed.
AW: That’s right. Which I did. Yes.
HB: So, so and I think you said it was the Dupre family.
AW: Dupre. That’s right.
HB: Yeah. So, just, just for the sake of the interview Arthur can you just go back over that when you go and you go with your brother.
AW: Oh yes.
HB: And the family.
AW: Well, yeah —
HB: And you go back.
AW: Well, I was in the car and we were driving. My brother and I both drove so we shared the driving. We were going in to to Italy on holiday.
HB: Yeah.
AW: We went to the West Coast of Italy and so I routed right around there. Spent the winter routing it out, you know. And finally —
HB: And had you been in contact with the family to say —
AW: That’s right. Through the letter with the help of my colleague who spoke French. And I told them I was arriving this date. Couldn’t give them an exact hour but it would probably just sometime early afternoon. And as I say I drove up in this little bloody hamlet it was and there was all the bunting out. They’d got Union Jacks and Tricolours out. And all the families, even little kiddies as I said who weren’t even born when I was shot down, they were all out. And there weren’t all that many because there was only a few houses sort of thing. A few very very old French farmhouses. And we had a hell of a time really. We really did, you know. I took a bottle of Scotch — Johnny Walker in those days was very popular. And they’d got the homemade what they called schnapps.
HB: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
AW: Made with the plums. Oh my God I floated.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And anyway they found us a little hotel nearby. It wasn’t too far away. We stayed the night and we saw them again the next day sort of thing, you know.
HB: And they were all there weren’t they?
AW: Yes. They were.
HB: Was it Rose? And —
AW: Rose and Henri. That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Henri was the chappie who found me with his sister Rose.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And he took me and he said, ‘Would you like to see where the aircraft crashed?’ I said I’d love to. That’s what I want to see as much as anything. So he said — and I was in this bloody Morris Minor. Bloody hell, you know. With all the stuff on the top. Overloaded and we went up this bloody, like a creek it was and I thought Christ we’re going to overturn and he seemed to be oblivious you know. Oblivious at that fact. And I was struggling with the bloody car and it was grinding and I thought, bloody hell we’ll never get up here without a fatal accident. Anyway, we finally got to the top and he showed me. There was the crash scene. A bit burned in places and that sort of thing. But they’d taken virtually everything away but there were one or two bits and pieces and that’s why I got that bit that I showed you. It was a bit bigger but I sawed a piece off for a young relative. And it brought a lump to my throat really when I saw it.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Knowing that some, two of the lads had been killed you know.
HB: Yeah. Did it, did it give you a sort of a sense of closure or anything like that?
AW: No. Not really. No. Because it was a few years afterwards so no. No.
HB: Right.
AW: It wasn’t like that but I I mean I wish, I wished afterwards but she’d have been terrified, I wished I’d have taken my wife with me up there but only Henri and I went.
HB: Right.
AW: Because he knew I think that it was going to be a bit of a rough ride and it bloody well was. I was frightened to death at the wheel. I was really. I thought we’re never going to turn this bloody, because we’d got stuff on the roof.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: I know it’s only a small car. It was a bloody Morris. Bloody hell.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Anyhow —
HB: Did you, did you ever find out where your two crew that were killed? Did you ever find out where they — where they were buried?
AW: No. Oh no. Yes. Only the one.
HB: Right.
AW: That was Woody.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Not Woody. The [pause] God, it was at Tremont. In the little local village cemetery.
HB: Right. Because you had, was it —
AW: I’ve got a photograph but I don’t —
HB: Yeah. Because you had Kiesow.
AW: Somewhere.
HB: Kiesow is the mid-upper and Rob Lough. Lough.
AW: No. It was Ross actually.
HB: Ross Lough.
AW: Ross Lough.
HB: And he —
AW: He was the rear gunner. It was his grave.
HB: In, in Tremont.
AW: Tremont, that’s right.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And it was fairly newish by comparison to most because, you know I don’t know whether you’ve ever seen French cemeteries but God some of the graves are so old.
HB: Oh yeah.
AW: And the stones.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You can hardly read the —
HB: Yeah.
AW: So, he’s buried there actually and when I got there there were actually some flowers. Fresh flowers. So they may have put them on there knowing I was going to arrive that day.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Which was ok. Ok. They did it anyway. So he’s buried there but you know I don’t know where. What happened to Johnny Kiesow.
HB: Yeah. Because I think, I think some of the Americans after the war they they actually.
AW: They moved them all didn’t they?
HB: They moved them all.
AW: They did yes.
HB: Yeah.
AW: So they may have done that and I don’t know where he is.
HB: Right.
AW: You know. I never found out about him.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And the same way I had great difficulty finding out what happened to my pilot.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Who died in 1979. Apparently. I don’t know what of or anything. Very mysterious isn’t it, you know?
HB: Yeah.
AW: I’m not sure that’s, you know, I think it’s a fact but I have to believe because I was told that was so much. Somehow it doesn’t — doesn’t convince me. You know what I mean?
HB: When you, when you look back now because you you’ve got very clear memories of, of your time in Bomber Command.
AW: I have.
HB: When you look back now what, what do you feel? What do you feel about your service with Bomber Command? How do you feel about your training and what you did?
AW: Well, about the training. I was a long while in training. I think it was getting on for two years. Something like that. All together. Before I finally reached the squadron, put it that way, you know. It’s a long time really. And different courses. Morse code. You name it. Machine guns. Although I wasn’t a gunner I had to go through Browning 303 bloody training and all that sort of thing. All on different courses. So, I went on a whole series of different courses and different things and I must admit the training was pretty good. That’s my opinion. You know. And I I did pretty well in virtually every subject I went on. That’s why I got my commission.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I learned later. I was on a course at Yatesbury. Morse code, and wireless. Not just Morse code. Wireless. Yatesbury. It was a very big, you know wireless teaching camp, you know. In Wiltshire. The hills and so forth. And I was in the lecture one day and somebody gave me the message that I was to report to the adjutant. So I thought, ‘Adjutant. I’ve done nothing wrong,’ [laughs] you know. Three steps sir.
HB: Yeah.
AW: So I went to see him and he asked me all sorts of questions about myself and my family and what I did and what my interests were and was I interested in sport and all that sort of thing, you know. And he said, ‘Ok,’ he said, ‘Go back to your lecture.’ Of course I had to put my best blue on for that. So I had to go back to the hut first and get changed into my working day blue. Not that I worked. It wasn’t work. It was —
HB: Yeah.
AW: You just listened to lectures and so forth. And that was it. And then I heard nothing more until I was at OTU. So it was some time afterwards. And I had another request to go and see, well ordered to see the adjutant there. And he told me I’d got my commission. That was it. And it turned out I had, well I had, I’d finished virtually, either in the virtually in the first two or three on every course I’d been on. You know.
HB: Right.
AW: And I think that, and then I suppose, well, I don’t know. Perhaps my attitude may have helped as well but —
HB: So, by the time you actually came to crew up you were already —
AW: We’d crewed up.
HB: Flying officer.
AW: It was at that. I think it was two or three weeks difference.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I got crewed up and then I got the bloody call and got my commission.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so I had a forty eight hour pass and with my mum went into town. We had to go to Austin Reeds and all this because they, they kept ready-made uniforms.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And they’d alter them a bit.
HB: Yeah.
AW: To suit whoever.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And they knew I was — I only had two days. I’d got to be back the next evening.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And we went all over the place. And I had a list about this bloody long. It was a foolscap sheet and it had got lists of all the things I needed. Even to a hairbrush. A comb. Everything was listed that I was required to have as an officer. You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And you can imagine what the bloody run around was can’t you?
HB: So when, so you’re very very early on in the crew and you’re an officer.
AW: And there’s only one other. That was Woody.
HB: And Woody was —
AW: Woody was already commissioned when he came over from, from Canada.
HB: He was commissioned from Canada.
AW: Yeah.
HB: Right. So, you’ve got an American pilot.
AW: Yeah.
HB: I mean obviously the mess system in the RAF if you’re on station, on the squadron you would be eating —
AW: In the officer’s mess.
HB: In the officer’s mess.
AW: The officer’s mess.
HB: And the rest of your crew.
AW: Was in the sergeant’s mess. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah.
HB: And how did you feel about that?
AW: That happened a lot. That happened a lot. That happened a lot.
HB: So how did, how did you, how did you manage to socialise then?
AW: We just went out in, when we had a night out in to Lincoln. Had a booze up [laughs] I remember the first one we went on. We were just crewed up. This at Upper Heyford. And we’d just crewed up and so we didn’t know each other. You know what I mean? So the practice was you’d book a room in this local pub which is on the cross roads, I can’t tell you the name. I don’t know the name. It was in the Oxfordshire area. And you booked, book a room and you rolled with the crates of beers you know and you sit there together and drink yourself silly sort of thing. I remember walking back across these bloody fields. Ploughed fields. We were up to here in mud and we were arm in arm. Seven of us singing to ourselves in the pitch dark and that was the first sort of booze up we had together.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Do you know what I mean?
HB: Yeah.
AW: It sort of broke the, broke the ice and that was it, you know. We got on very well together actually as a crew.
HB: Yeah.
AW: We really did.
HB: And so you kept up with the Association.
AW: That’s it.
HB: The 630 Association.
AW: That’s right.
HB: But you’re also a member of the Guinea Pig Club.
AW: Yes. That’s now finished virtually because we’re all too old. I mean too old. I mean if there was a reunion, at a pinch I could make it.
HB: Right.
AW: You know. But a lot of the lads couldn’t and I’m, the last I heard there was about thirty of us left, you know. That was a part of my life that I wouldn’t have missed if I could have helped it. In spite of what caused it.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Going to East Grinstead.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I wouldn’t have missed it because I met some wonderful guys as Guinea Pigs. Absolutely fantastic.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And some of the dos we had as reunions were disgraceful [laughs] they really were. You know. But wonderful.
HB: Absolutely.
AW: I met some lovely people in East Grinstead as well. They were wonderful people, you know. I think as you mentioned yourself earlier on McIndoe met the local people as much as he could and told them. I mean I wasn’t affected visually but a lot of the lads were very awful really to look at. Especially in the initial stages of their burns and grafting. And McIndoe put it, could put this over better than I can of course but he spoke to them and told them, you know not to stare too much but just to accept them as they were. And if they felt like inviting them into their homes for a coffee, one of the Guinea Pigs, if they met them in the town so much the better. And he showed, put the locals right in that way because initially when they’re badly burned they are a sight. You know. Especially if it’s the face. And that did the trick. Do you know what I mean? So the local people in East Grinstead, of course it’s swelled now, it’s a much bigger town than it was then but they all treated us marvellously. They really did. When we went into town for a drink which we did when we could [laughs] I was in a wheelchair for a lot of the time and they used to push me in the middle, bob up to the bar [laughs] you know.
HB: I think given the theme it was perhaps as well you were in a wheelchair.
AW: Well, perhaps it was. Yeah.
HB: Yeah.
AW: Yeah. Wonderful. And there was, as I say a nursing sister there. Oh, I’ve forgotten the name now I’m ashamed to say. She was a lovely lovely nursing sister. Scottish. And she had a lovely lilt to the way she spoke, you know. And as I say she, she persevered with this bloody foot of mine. Trying to get this poison out of it, you know because she knew that until that poison they couldn’t even start thinking about doing any graft working you know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And she bloody kept changing this and changing that and then as I say one day I dressed about three times every day and she took this dressing off and she said, ‘Look. Look.’ And there on the pad was some of the, she said ‘It’s started to come away, I think. We’ve got it I think.’ And she’d thought of it. It was bloody marvellous really.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And it was liquid paraffin and two other items I think. I don’t remember. But why liquid paraffin I don’t know. Whether that was to sort to bring the stuff away and make it stick to the, to the muslin I don’t know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: But I was some weeks at that. I had to have physiotherapy every day and oh, bloody hell.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I met my dear friend Ray Brook and he became a really close Guinea Pig mate.
HB: Yeah.
AW: He used to come up and stay with Sheila and I at Christmas time.
HB: Yeah.
AW: It was him who started me smoking again. The bugger. I’d packed it up, you know. Have you ever smoked?
HB: Yes.
AW: Well, you know what it’s like then.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I’d packed it up and hadn’t smoked for some weeks anyway. I looked up Ray and I asked him if he, if he’d thought about coming up. Staying with us for Christmas. Yeah. He’d love to. So he came to stay with Sheila and I. In Erdington we were then. And he kept lighting up you know. With his mitts. His badly burned mitts. ‘Red.’ You know. ‘No. No. Don’t tempt me. Don’t tempt me.’ You know. And he’d sort of throw one over and just tempt me. And he did. And in the end I just thought, ‘Well, I can take it or leave it now. I haven’t smoked for so many weeks.’ Could I hell? Had a fag and within a fortnight I was back on to what I was before. Do you know what I mean?
HB: I don’t know.
AW: But he was a lovely lovely friend. He really is —
HB: Yeah.
AW: And I lost touch with him. He was a very close friend. He used to come and stay with Sheila and I. He came from South London. His father spoke with a cockney accent but they were lovely lovely people and being only about thirty miles from East Grinstead they used to come and see him every Sunday afternoon. So I was included in the family circle.
HB: Right.
AW: Because I was very close to Ray.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And so I used to chat with his mum and dad. They’d bring him goodies and I was part of the family as far as that was concerned. So a really close good friend. And I’ve lost touch with him. I keep ringing his phone number and there’s no reply but he was very very ill the last time I heard him so I wouldn’t be surprised if he hasn’t passed away.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know. Anyway —
HB: So —
AW: A great guy.
HB: Yeah.
AW: A great guy.
HB: We’ve come right through it. We’ve come to the end of the war. You’ve got, got your job. What, what do you feel? What do you feel your service with Bomber Command — what did you achieve? You know, with your service. Do you think?
AW: Achieve in what, what respect?
HB: Well, you know in the sort of in the general thing of your service during the war you’ve done your job in Bomber Command. So —
AW: Well, I’ll tell you what I did feel privately. I felt that I had achieved something in I’d got a commission and I’d only had an elementary school education. And I put that down mainly to the fact my extra activities educational wise after I left school. I went to night school and I had, I had a postal course with the Metropolitan College of St Albans. And every three days or so we used to have to send a test off like an exam and they would come back marked with red ink.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And I got through those exams. Those were like, for, mainly for insurance purposes. You know what I mean? But it was normal subjects as well including algebra and all that type of thing. You know what I mean? And I got through that very well and so I pride myself I must admit. I, when I was a young, young fellow before I went in the RAF I had two cousins one of whom lived in Italy. He was ninety six. He passed away not too long. Well, three or four years ago. And we used to go out together, you know. This was before I met Sheila. So we’d have the Raglan overcoats on, you know. Young boys of the town, you know and — but I decided I was going to get somewhere as far as my education was concerned. Which I knew I’d reached a limited level at elementary school. So, I went to night school and I took some bookkeeping and that type of thing, you know which stood me in very good stead later on.
HB: Yeah.
AW: That type of subject. Commerce in other words. Later on when I was looking for a position other than travelling around the world which I did for a number of years it all stood me in good stead. You know. And I wrote for this job as I say out in the Black Country and got the job. Didn’t understand a word anybody was saying to me for about three weeks [laughs] They have a language of their own. And I finished up as a director there.
HB: Right.
AW: So, I reckon I did pretty well as considering I only had an elementary school education.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I got my commission. Which helped me later on. You know, the fact that I’d been commissioned I suppose was different positions. But I finished up in the Black Country, and a director of this company called Alloy Wire Company which was nickel chromed stuff.
HB: Yeah.
AW: That sort of thing, you know. So, I thought — I live on my own. I regret very much because I loved my wife very dearly but as I said we never had any children. She was a wonderful wife. Never, never had a day’s illness until she had the one that killed her which was a brain tumour.
HB: Oh dear.
AW: You know.
HB: Yeah.
AW: And that was in the year 2000. That’s seventeen years ago now. So, so actually I suppose I did quite well during the war . Apart from meeting Sheila which was the best thing I ever did.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I did pretty well for myself really and as I say finished up as this director in the Black Country. And travelled around the world with them.
HB: Yeah.
AW: For some years. And then retired and we were quite happy. We moved in here because my cousin I’ve already mentioned to you living in the flat just down the way here. So we used to come and visit him, you see. Him and wife who was alive at that time. And so Sheila and I used to go and visit him about every month or so, you know and have a night playing cards or something and have a cup of tea or a bit of supper. And so we knew these flats very well and we talked about one day and we both agreed that when we retired we thought we’d possibly think of coming to live here. Which I did but by this time my wife had been diagnosed with a brain tumour and only given twelve months about, to live, you know. So she never had any enjoyment of this place really you know. We only lived just around the corner.
HB: Yeah.
AW: The next road up. And that was where we lived. We were in a bungalow we had there which we saw built from scratch and it’s still there now.
HB: Well, that’s —
AW: So I — yeah the war did me no harms really except that I’m now on my own. I had a wonderful wife and girlfriend to start with.
HB: Yeah.
AW: I’m lucky I got away with my life when it was — I came very very close to losing it and after that even closer to losing my foot. I’m very fortunate really. You know. I I live on my own. I’ve a good neighbour next door and one next door but one and we go out for a drink on Tuesday nights usually.
HB: We’re back to the drink theme [laughs]
AW: Just come back from holiday in Spain with Mike, next door.
HB: Right.
AW: He has a daughter owns a house there on the coast in Spain. That’s about the fourth or fifth time I’ve been there. So I don’t do badly really do I?
HB: No. Not at all.
AW: There are times when I am on my own. You know what I mean? You’re lonely but —
HB: Well, I think Arthur that’s —
AW: All of the advantages I’ve got I’m very fortunate really.
HB: Yes.
AW: And to live to ninety five I think is actually exceptional.
HB: Yes.
AW: In the circumstance. I came very close to losing my life.
HB: Yeah.
AW: On the 24th 25th of July 1944. So, I’m lucky to be here really.
HB: Yeah.
AW: You know.
HB: Alright. I mean, I’ve got to thank you Arthur because it’s it really has been an excellent experience for me.
AW: Well, I hope I haven’t bored you, Harry.
HB: No.
AW: You know.
HB: No. I mean.
AW: That’s the last thing I want.
HB: As I said to you we’re going to bring the interview to a close because it’s just coming up for 2.30pm.
AW: My God.
HB: But and I’m getting a bit concerned you’ve not had anything to eat. So —
AW: Well, neither have you.
HB: Well, that’s —
AW: Not that I’m very good cook or anything like that. Unfortunately I’m not.
HB: I’m going, I’m going to terminate the interview now.
AW: Ok.
HB: But I do have to thank you on behalf of the Bomber Command, International Bomber Command Digital Archive for a really interesting interview.
AW: Well, thanks for coming Harry. It’s been —
HB: It’s been a pleasure.
AW: It’s been great meeting you.
HB: A pleasure. Thank you
AW: And I hope we meet up for, or talk at least on the phone. You can’t get away from me [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Arthur Sidney Woolf
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWoolfAS170629, PWoolfAS1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:50:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France--Nancy
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Woolf was working in an office before he volunteered for the RAF. He was keen on flying and would cycle to Castle Bromwich airfield to watch the aircraft. He was accepted for aircrew training and became a wireless operator. After joining a crew he was posted to 630 Squadron at East Kirkby. On their sixteenth operation they were shot down by a night fighter. The two gunners were killed. Arthur was seriously injured and when he regained consciousness he heard voices which proved to be French people who took him to their farmhouse. He was eventually taken prisoner and was taken to hospital in Nancy. He and three others were left in the cellar when the hospital was evacuated and they were liberated by the Americans. On return to the UK Arthur was first sent to Wroughton RAF Hospital before being transferred to the care of Archibald McIndoe and his team and became a member of the Guinea Pig Club.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
630 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
Dominie
evading
fear
final resting place
Guinea Pig Club
Lancaster
McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960)
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oxford
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Dumfries
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wroughton
RAF Yatesbury
shot down
Stirling
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/617/8886/PPackmanDE1601.2.jpg
ba8928c4bf42a6031477dbdbb826e776
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/617/8886/APackmanDE161130.1.mp3
f2b524bbfce27b88bedbdd2f83f4cea3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Packman, Doug
Douglas Ernest Packman
D E Packman
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Packman, DE
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Doug Packman (1925, 1866208 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a fight engineer with 630, 57 and 44 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Doug Packman today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s digital archive. We’re at Doug’s home in Tankerton in Kent, and it is Wednesday the 30th of November 2016. Thank you, Doug, for agreeing to talk to me today, and also present in the house is Barbara Masters, a friend of Doug’s. So, Doug, perhaps you could tell me first of all please your date and place of birth and your family background?
DP: Yes Chris. My date of birth was January the 10th 1925. My parents Lucy and Ernest Packman had their one and only child, that of course was me. If my parents could have shown me the beautiful night sky due south at nine fifty-five pm, we would have observed the most wonderful sight. I refer to the Orion [emphasis] nebula. The first star to pass by this, in this constellation was Rigel. Standing at approximately 30, 25’ due south, approximately 188 magnetic. I of course, just newly born, would know nothing [emphasis] of this. My only interest would have been in the warm arms of my loving mother. We, that is mum, dad and I, lived with my grandparents at Coxett Farm, Hansletts Lane, near Ospringe, Faversham. I will give you its actual [laughs] location [emphasis]. North 51 18’, east 000, 51.116’. I very often pass by this lovely old farmhouse on my way to church at Stalisfield. I look on this as my place of birth and where my life and adventures began. When a few months old, my parents decided I must be christened. One fine Saturday, Sunday [emphasis] afternoon, my mother, grandmother and an aunt were all prepared for the short journey to the church of St Peter and St Paul at Ospringe. They looked around for my dad and found him clearing, cleaning his motorcycle [emphasis]. ‘Come on Ernest’ said my mother, ‘have you not yet thought of another name to give our lad besides Ernest?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘call him Douglas.’ ‘Why Douglas?’ asked mum and grandma. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘this is the best motorcycle I have ever had’ [CJ laughs] ‘so why not?’ I was so grateful in later years to my old dad, but I am very glad he did not own a Rudge, B.S.A. or Matchless at that time [CJ laughing]. My parents and I very often laughed about this. We move. Some two years after my birth in nineteen, in 1927, we moved to St Marys in the Isle of Grain. I always remembered it as remote and desolate, but I suppose it did have a certain beauty. And I must say during my childhood, my father taught me to ride horses at an early age, for I have loved horses all my life. He also taught me how to handle guns and shoot in a responsible manner. When I was ten [emphasis] I could drive a car around the farm, also help repair stationary engines. I have a photo of me driving a Standard Fordson tractor at the age of thirteen [CJ laughs]. World War Two. As we all know, World War Two started in 1939. When I was fourteen I worked as a boy messenger for the GPO, both at Ashford and Chatham, and by the time I was fifteen my parents had both decided that I should work at home on the farm. I was just over fifteen when I decided to join the LDV, or home guard. I will be honest, this was not, certainly [emphasis] for patriotic reasons. I wanted a stout pair of boots for farm work [CJ laughs] so what better than British Army boots? On my sixteenth birthday, I was, I was given my first driving licence. I, it covered all groups, so now I could drive a five ton Bedford lorry, and just about everything else. I might add I have never passed a driving test [CJ laughs], it was not needed in wartime. I led a busy life. I studied for two evenings a week under the guidance of Oscar George, our rector. He was a brilliant man, he had patience with me and I soaked up all [emphasis] that he gave me to do, maths, science, history etcetera. I owe him a great deal, for without his guidance I would never have passed my aircrew exams. Long distance running was also taken up, along with boxing and unarmed combat. Being in the Home Guard meant guard duty at times. Looking back, I suppose I was very lucky for as you might know, there was a complete blackout during that time. The sky could be observed without the distraction of streetlights etcetera. I think it might have got me interested on the beauty of the night sky, and it’s always been there for me. Those times, times can never come back. When I reached my seventeenth birthday, I went into the recruiting office above Burtons’ buildings at Chatham and asked to join RAF aircrew. A few weeks later I went to Cardington and passed my medical A1 and two or three days of examinations. I knew I might have difficulties for I was a farm boy and in a reserved occupation, however after almost a year I finally wore them down. I suppose they got fed up with me, and at eighteen walked into Lords cricket ground and so started what was for me the great adventure of my life.
Watching the stars again. I suppose it was around August 1944 that we visited some part of northern Germany. I remember we delivered our presents and, there being rather a lot of flak, Alec told me to put on climbing power. I adjusted my engines to twenty-eight thousand, two-thousand eight-hundred and fifty rpm and boost pressure to +9lbs/sq. in. We entered dense cloud and about ten minutes later, emerged from this dense cloud at about ten thousand feet. The effect was truly amazing for the night sky was just brilliant [emphasis]. It was a moon and just about every star at its best. I can only describe it as like entering from a complete darkness into a brilliant theatre full of light. It has forever stuck in my mind. I well remember Claude, our navigator, coming out of his small office behind me and pointing at the Plough and Pole Star. I have, if I’d had my planisphere with me at that time I could have told the time by the star Dubhe or the Plough, pointing to the star. It was all so [emphasis] exciting. It was the wrong time of the year to see Orion in the northern hemisphere, but many years later, after Pegs and I got married, I purchased a 4½” Newtonian reflector telescope, so that we could both enjoy many evenings of watching that beautiful night sky. But of course, one could not enjoy the full beauty, for there are so many lights from our towns and cities throughout the world and it does [emphasis] affect the viewing. But I will ask the reader not to be put off. Sometimes maybe around January the 10th next year, if you are fed up of watching the box, and some silly parlour game, get up [emphasis], go to your south aspect door and just look up [emphasis] and with a bit of luck you will be rewarded with the Orion Nebula. You can always [emphasis] make the excuse that you are putting the empty milk bottles or the cat out [CJ laughs]. God bless you all.
CJ: Well thank you Doug, that was great. Could you perhaps tell me now – you said you’d been to the recruiting office and joined up and that you went through the medical, so perhaps you could tell us about your time during training and going up to joining an operational squadron?
DP: Yes. I, I was very anxious to join up, simply because we just wanted to give Hitler a bloody nose [emphasis] [CJ laughs], and, er, I, I arrived at Lords cricket ground on the, sometime in March 1943, and there I met up with a wonderful fellow who I would like to tell you about. His name is John Mannion, and John was one of those who did not [emphasis] come back. So I would like to say, to tell you about him now. Is it there? [Pause whilst shuffling paper.] I first met John at Lords cricket ground one sunny morning in March 1943. ‘Good morning, my name’s John Mannion, what’s yours?’ ‘Doug,’ I replied, and we shook hands heartily. We attended lectures and training sessions at St John’s Wood, Torquay and St. Athan’s engineering school in Wales, until the Christmas of that year when we passed our final examination and emerged as sergeant flight engineers to fly in the mighty Lancaster. John was posted to No. 1 Group. I was sent to 5 Group Bomber Command. We would sometimes meet up in Lincoln, go to dances, chase the girls, for we were young [emphasis] and the world was our oyster. No two young men enjoyed life more. Full of enthusiasm, we went to war in order to give, as I say, Hitler a bloody nose. By June 27th, 1944, I had completed about eight operations when I had one of my letters to John returned to me. John had been killed on the 25th of June 1944, somewhere over Europe, whilst flying a Lancaster with 576 Squadron. John was never to reach his twentieth birthday. My first wife Alice Ida and I went to RAF Bomber Command War Memorial at Runnymede to see his name carved in stone. It all seems like a dream now, but I shall always remember the great adventures we had in that short time together. I shed a tear. Who knows, John and I might meet up again when I depart this life, then we can resume our chatter and thoughts. Rest in peace John.
CJ: Aw that’s lovely.
DP: That is my dedication to all of those, and John, who died and never made it back.
CJ: Mhm. Thank you. So could you tell me please, which was your first squadron and how many operations you did, and the sort of operations you were doing?
DP: Yes Chris, I did thirty-four operations in total, and that was on 630 Squadron at East Kirkby in Lincolnshire. There was another squadron there, 57 Squadron was out sister squadron. Erm, we took, I suppose, about five to six months to complete that tour of operations and then we were rested and went to, I went to the Lancaster finishing school at Syerston as an instructor. I served at Syerston and flew many operations training people and then my pilot and I, the late flight lieutenant John Chatterton DFC we returned to 630 Squadron again as squadron engineers. Squadron instructors [emphasis] rather. And the war ended in Europe. We were all destined to go to Japan, or fight the Japanese, but the bombing of Hiroshima settled all of that and our squadron was disbanded [emphasis] and then John and I were transferred to 57 again as squadron instructors, and we took the place of Mike Beetham and Ernest Scott who was his flight engineer. Incidentally, Mike Beetham became Marshal of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham and he died two years ago. But then we moved from East Kirkby to Mildenhall in Suffolk where we joined John’s old squadron, 44 Squadron, and from there we flew operations out to Italy bringing back prisoners of war, so that was, that was it.
CJ: So when did you actually leave the RAF?
DP: Er, I left the RAF in around about March 1946 and then I was told to go to the Adjutant and said ‘go home and if you can get a job I will secure your release under Class B.’ I didn’t know much about what Class B was but I was looking forward to going home and getting married, but under Class B I was restricted to farm work until 1953/54, which wasn’t a very good move [laughs].
CJ: And looking back on your operational missions, were there any that you remember for the right or wrong reasons, when you, you thought you’d done a particularly good job or you had any close shaves?
DP: Well there was one close shave I had, and I think this piece of the aeroplane peller, propeller – [paper shuffling] I’ll show you – it might be of interest. It was at Revigny and it was on the 18th or 19th of July I think. I’m not sure I’ll have to check about that. Anyway, that night we went to Revigny and it had been bombed [emphasis] four times previously and I think [emphasis] we all thought it was an easy run for we went in, there was very little flak, we dropped our bombs and then there was just setting course for home when all hell let loose. Er, the mid upper gunner screamed out that the plane was alight [emphasis]. There was holes that appeared all over the place and I rushed back to see if I could be of assistance but he was enveloped, or rather that part of the aircraft was enveloped in fire, sizzed my eyebrows a bit and I reported to Alec, our pilot, that she was well [emphasis] alight. He then gave us instructions to bale out, and by the time I got back the navigator and bomb aimer had taken the escape hatch out of the bomb aimers compartment and we had a routine of getting out. I went, was going to be first, the bomb aimer, navigator, pilot, wireless operator would follow, the other two if they were lucky would get out the back, the two gunners. I, I’d dropped through the hatch as I thought, but the aircraft was in a spin and I was promptly, promptly dumped back [emphasis] in it again [laughs]. And there was no escape, all three of us were penned in that small area. I obviously was not on the intercom but the navigator or bomb aimer was still in contact, and Alec said ‘get him back up here to help me pull her, see if we can save her.’ I got up those two steps with their assistance – it was like climbing a mountain [CJ laughs]. So I got hold of the control column with Alec and we tugged and tugged [emphasis], and eventually she came up, but I remember seeing the top of Alec’s head, because I was laying on top of the canopy looking down onto him, or up at him, whichever the case may have been, and the next moment I was on the floor by his side. Alec got the aircraft under control, but he said afterwards that he looked at the speedometer and we must have touched four-hundred miles an hour in that dive, and it was pretty horrendous [emphasis]. Anyway, we got back, how we got back we never knew, but we got back and we were only ten minutes behind time, so it was – we were very [emphasis] lucky. But as we got out of the aircraft at East Kirkby I picked up a bit of the propeller which had hit my right leg and that’s it there. I’ve kept it ever since. I must say, as we got out the aircraft there was really no need to go to the rear door, we could have all walked out the side of it. It was just shattered [emphasis]. No tail planes, very little of the fuselage and yet we all [emphasis] got out of there, we were all [emphasis] extremely quiet, and there was not much laughter. But we went on operations the following night. But the aircraft I thought at the time was a write-off, but afterwards I found out that it had been patched [emphasis] up and it got lost I think on Stuttgart a few months later. But that was quite a hairy situation.
CJ: So the piece of propeller that you showed me – that was from your own aircraft?
DP: Yes, it came from starboard inner propeller. I feathered the engine, I had to stop the engine afterwards but we came back on three and, the Lancaster being the brilliant aircraft that it was came back no trouble whatsoever. So that was it.
CJ: Wow. And did you have any other missions that were memorable for good –
DP: Well –
CJ: Or not so good reasons?
DP: Well, at St Nazaire, the submarine pens at St Nazaire springs to mind. The Pathfinders had gone in and marked the target. It was brilliant [emphasis]. The sky – I was able to write [emphasis] my log and my engineer’s log without any assistance, just from the reflection of the, of the searchlights, it was enough, and as we were going in, we could see that they’d – that Alec our pilot said, ‘there’ll be fighters, so when we get straight and level over the target that will be the danger point.’ He instructed me to get in the front turret, so I stood in the front turret with Walter, the bomb aimer with his head between my feet, sighting up the target, and Alec gave the two gunners and myself instructions – ‘do not [emphasis] shoot unless you know that they’re coming for us.’ I think that was good, but all of a sudden I saw a dot [emphasis] in, on the horizon, and it quickly got – as it got closer I could see that it was a Focke-Wulf 190, and it was coming straight [emphasis] at us, point blank. And at the last moment it veered off over our port wing. It was so close that with the lights from the searchlights, I could see the shape of the pilot and also the oil streaks under its belly showed up. And I never want to see a Focke-Wulf or any other aeroplane quite that close again. It was a narrow, narrow day. And just recently, I’ve read in the “Daily Telegraph” obituary column of a German colonel, a friend of Hermann Goering, who ran the Wild Boar Squadron, so called, and he gave instructions to his men that if they ran out of ammunition and they couldn’t bring them down, just ram [emphasis] them. All I can say, I think that man was very kind. He either lost his nerve and we lived another day, so that was it. But that was very, very hairy that one. But apart from that we had the usual. Sometimes it was not easy, but we always [emphasis] lived to see another day, yes. But there we are. I think we were very, very lucky and out of thirty-four operations, there was no-one [emphasis] suffered at all. We weren’t hit, so God was with us [laughs] and, you know, it was marvellous. I would like to add this, that when we used to go to, down to take off from East Kirkby, each night or sometimes in the day, we would stand at the end of the runway ready for the green light and I would open up the engines, taking over from Alec, to give it full power and when I’d got full power on I’d always say, or murmur to myself a silent prayer. And that was to, to ask God to look after my parents and Jean my girlfriend and above all, would he let me see the sun rise in the east in the morning. And I used to say that every day, and I must say that it was good because my parents lived to a ripe old age and Jean, and I, are now almost ninety-two years of age. So, thank you God [both laugh].
CJ: Hmm. And did you go on to marry Jean later?
DP: Er, no. I married Alice Ida, partner and, in 1946, and we had eleven years of marriage and then, one Christmas she was, she went to hospital and she was diagnosed with leukaemia and they told me she’d got eleven, no, eight months to live, and she did indeed die on 8th of August 1958. So that was indeed hard, and er, it was hard in many ways because I lived in a very nice council house, an agriculture council house, but she died on the Saturday and on the Monday the rent collector informed me that, having no children, I would be required to vacate the house in a fortnight. So, I lost my wife [emphasis], my house and my job all in that fortnight, which wasn’t good.
CJ: And what did you go on to do after that? Did you carry on farming?
DP: Well I, I stopped on the farm, and I started keeping a few sheep and pigs myself, and I did that for a little while but I, I became ill and I was told to go on sea cruise and I did something that I never thought I’d do. I signed on the P&O liner Himalaya, and she was about to do a world cruise. And so I went away for six months, and in that time I saw Australia, New Zealand, the States, Canada, er Japan, New Zealand, and we did forty-four thousand miles, and I came back and Peggy, Patricia Penfold, who I’d known for many years, and although she was twelve years older than me she, we were in love and we married on that, when I came back. And we had forty-one [emphasis] years of lovely marriage. She died Christmas 2000, and that was it.
CJ: And you said that you were lucky that you and your crew survived the war. Were you able to keep in touch with them and attend reunions?
DP: Well yes [emphasis], I was able to keep in touch with my last pilot John Chatterton, he was a farmer in Lincolnshire, and also my pilot Alec Swain, he was a big industrialist in Manchester, and we kept in contact right up until Alec died [emphasis] and I was able to meet also the bomb aimer and the wireless operator, and Walter is still alive now and he lives in Kettering, and he’s indeed full, full, no he’s one year older than me, so he’s ninety-three. But it’s, so he’s the only one left now, yes.
CJ: And how, how did you feel that Bomber Command were treated after the war?
DP: Well I, I think it was a bit rough. We got criticised and I think it was quite unnecessary because at that [emphasis] time I think we were the only – it was the only defence we’d got was the Air Force flying, but we got shouted at and abused for Dresden and all that sort of thing. But I always thought that, you know, the Germans were bombing Coventry and the docks of London and all [emphasis] these other places, and I thought it was a bit unjustified. But yes, I suppose we didn’t get a medal, a campaign medal, but I’ve never been, I’ve never been, never been very interested in medals anyway so it doesn’t make much difference to me. I met, I never had any brothers or sisters, but being in an RAF aircrew, in a Lancaster, member of a Lancaster crew I had six wonderful brothers, and that [emphasis] to me was worth every, every operation I did. They were lovely men, marvellous people.
CJ: And have you been inside a Lancaster since you left the RAF?
DP: Yes [emphasis]. I was lucky enough to – when I was seventy years of age, John Chatterton my pilot had a son, Mike Chatterton, and he was flying the Lancaster at Coningsby and they were doing a flight from Coningsby to Wittering and he said that I could join them, and so we, we all assembled at Coningsby, John Chatterton, Dennis Ringham our gunner, Bill Draycott the bomb aimer and myself [emphasis], and we all took off with an escort of two fighters for Wittering [emphasis]. But the big surprise that Mike spread, sprung on us was that at briefing he said to the two pilots of the fighters, ‘when we leave Wittering, I will be handing over the controls to Doug Packman, and so give him a bit of airspace please.’ I was dumbfounded [emphasis], I thought he must have been speaking of somebody else but no, it was me, and it was [emphasis], I was so [emphasis] – I was over [emphasis] the moon. Anyway, true to his word, when we left Wittering, he allowed me to take over controls because it was dual control in that Lancaster, and I must have had a smile like the cat’s got the cream [emphasis], [CJ laughs], ‘cause as we flew on I thought of all the operations, I thought of my other crews and the boys, and I was really [emphasis] very happy, and after a few minutes Mike took over to do a beautiful landing back at East Kirkby. And a few years, a couple or three years later he allowed me to start up at the J-Jane at, which is at East Kirkby, it belongs to the Panton brothers, and I was able to start that up and, without any instructions, so indeed, I had my lessons learnt during the RAF had not left me, and that was it. So I’ve been very happy.
CJ: Well thank you very much for talking to us today Doug, that was excellent –
DP: Well it’s –
CJ: Thank you very much indeed.
DP: Okay Chris, thank you [emphasis] very much.
[Tape paused and restarted.]
CJ: Doug, could you just explain please how you came to have this bit of propeller with you?
DP: Yes. The, as the, this explosion, this terrific [emphasis] explosion came, I found out later it was from the Schrage Musik from possibly a JU88 had fired straight up, and they used to aim at the mid-section, which was the petrol tanks, and in this case what they did explode was the ammunition drums, and everything. That’s what caused the, the fire. But the propeller I – the starboard engine which I had to feather because it was running rough, had made a hole the size I would imagine from memory, much [emphasis] larger than that, it was about, ooh it was about a six inch square hole, this small piece had made, and it had been – it hit my leg as it came in but my well cushioned flying boot and thick socks, it didn’t hurt me at all I just felt [emphasis] it, and there it was, laying beside this hole. And looking at it, one can tell that it is [emphasis] propeller, or bits of a propeller because there was holes literally everywhere [emphasis]. Not large holes, the one, this one I’ve described was probably the biggest, but that’s it. And I’ve shown it to many people and they all say, you know, that’s it, the starboard propeller.
CJ: And the JU88 that attacked you, that was, that had special armament?
DP: Yes, they had upward facing guns which they could – that was one of the weak parts of a Lancaster, they didn’t have a downward firing gun or no way of observing, and they could come up underneath [emphasis] you, slightly come up underneath you, and then the pilot of the JU88, he could focus his guns right underneath you and it’s well known and documented that they used to aim for the mid-section, i.e. to get the fuel tanks really and, of course, the ammunition. And this is just what it did, but very [emphasis] lucky for us, it was just the ammunition drums that exploded and I suppose the incendiary bullets on that would have caused, you know, caused all this fire. And in fact, in that area it was just devastated [emphasis]. We didn’t stop to look at it, we just wanted to get out of it when we landed. But it was just naked framework if you understand.
CJ: Okay, thank you for clarifying that Doug.
DP: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Doug Packman
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-30
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APackmanDE161130
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:38:48 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
France--Revigny-sur-Ornain
France--Saint-Nazaire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1946-03
Contributor
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Chris Johnson
Sally Coulter
Description
An account of the resource
Doug grew up in Kent. He joined the Royal Air Force at 18, as a flight engineer for 630 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby in 5 Group Bomber Command, flying Lancasters. He carried out 34 operations, followed by time as an instructor at RAF Syerston, returning to 630 Squadron. He describes two hairy situations over France with their ammunition tanks being hit by an upward-firing Schräge Musik from a Ju-88 over Revigny, and a very close encounter with a Fw 190 at Saint-Nazaire. They survived both situations. A move to 44 Squadron followed and he flew operations to Italy, bringing back prisoners of war. He left the RAF in March 1946. Doug describes his love of the night sky.
44 Squadron
57 Squadron
630 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
civil defence
faith
flight engineer
Fw 190
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
memorial
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Syerston
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/612/8881/AMorrisW170218.2.mp3
7e374361b81685a1980bb8038a13c8e3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Morris, Walter
W Morris
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Morris, W
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Walter Morris (b. 1923, 1623898 Royal Air Force). and his memoir. He flew operations with 630 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Walter Morris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
217-02-18
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AB: Ok.
GB: Hello.
WM: Hello. Lovely to see you.
GB: This interview is being conducted on behalf of International Bomber Command in Lincoln. With me today is Mr Walter Morris and the interviewer is Gill Barnes. Also present is Mr Andrew Barnes, my husband and the interview is being conducted on the 18th of January in Mr Morris’ home.
WM: 18th of February.
GB: February.
AB: 18th of February.
GB: 18th of February. Thank you Mr Morris for that.
WM: Very good. Yes.
GB: Yeah. So I’m — thank you very much for agreeing to share your memories with us today.
WM: Yes.
GB: They can be as informal as you like and in any order that you like. We’re really interested to know about how you felt during the war years and not just facts and figures but also the whole experience that you went through. But I know you’re a local man and that you were born and bred locally so just to give us a bit of background it would be interesting to know what you were doing before the war. How you came to be called up and how you came to enter your squadron.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And any other information.
WM: Yes.
GB: You’d care to share.
WM: Well as you say I was born in Kettering and I went to the Central School. I was a year above Pauline in the, in the school there and as kids we walked out together but going to the pictures was a bit of a trot trying to find one shilling and thruppence to go or something like that and we just drifted apart. But then at this time I was getting near to leaving school and I always think it probably prompted me a little bit. I was walking home from school and two Blenheim bombers came flying over and they were barely chimney height. You know.
GB: Oh my goodness.
WM: And it really, you know it’s something that lived with me ever since you see.
AB: Gosh.
WM: Anyway, a few months later I went to work at Corby. I started there on the 26th of August 1939.
AB: At Stewart’s and Lloyd’s. Yes.
WM: At Stewart’s and Lloyd’s sorry. And I I joined Stewart’s and Lloyd’s on the 26th and that same week war was declared.
AB: Oh gosh.
WM: And quite a shock when I went the following back to work after the following weekend and all the chaps of about twenty, nineteen, twenty. They’d nearly all disappeared. A lot of them had joined the Territorial Army. The war came and they all got called up so it was like starting again with that. But —
AB: Gosh.
WM: You know not long after that I realised that, you know I was going to get involved. I mean I was only sixteen at the time. If the war was going to last I was going to, I was going to be involved you see.
AB: You weren’t, you weren’t going to be involved in a reserved occupation or anything like that.
WM: No. No. No. Nothing like that. I was only an office boy really you know at the time.
AB: Right.
WM: But that was it.
AB: Oh gosh.
WM: So anyway it was on my mind. I think most people who would have been my age and I eventually, 1947, sorry ‘41 came along and the Air Training Corps was formed. I don’t know if it was Churchill or someone did it. And they had a big sort of advertising thing to get there and I remember going to Stanford Road School to enlist in it and there were over two hundred boys there waiting to sign up to join the Air Training Corps.
AB: Goodness.
WM: And anyway I went along. I suppose I was one of the older ones. In a year’s time I would have been going off to the war and they made me a sergeant and —
AB: Immediately.
WM: Yes. Well they had to form you know. So I was there and I then, in charge of the drill and all the rest of it you know. And I had a wonderful year really. We got people run it. There was the garage owner. He was the chief and then two or three school masters came along and the chemist, Boots, the manager there, he came along.
AB: Where was this based then?
WM: In Kettering.
AB: Oh.
WM: At Stanford Road School.
AB: So was the Air Training Corps Kettering based was it?
WM: It was Kettering based.
AB: Yes. Oh I see.
WM: 101 Squadron it was. Yes.
AB: Oh right.
WM: And anyway during that year I got to be eighteen and I volunteered for the, to fly in there and they were all volunteers. They were, you know, you weren’t called up to that. You just volunteered for it. And then I, there was normally a waiting time of what, about eight months. Something. Seven, eight months. The biggest shock of my life. This was in September. My birthday. December I had a thing to call me up and I had to go to Northampton for an interview and then from there later on I went to Cardington in —
AB: In Bedfordshire.
WM: Bedfordshire. And I got enrolled you see and then, ‘When can you come?’ You know and it started to get quite comical. ‘Can you come on Monday?’ ‘No sir. I can’t.’ ‘Can you come a week on Monday?’ ‘Yes. That’s alright,’ and I was, but I was, I was signed on you know. I had to give the pledge that you do and all the rest of it.
AB: Yeah.
WM: And I got my RAF number and the week before, the following Monday well I had to give up work straightaway. They let me go. They didn’t hold me up. I had to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground in February. February the 23rd it was so it [unclear]
GB: Yeah.
AB: 1940.
GB: ‘41.
WM: ‘42 this was.
AB: ‘42. Right.
WM: Sorry. Yes. Yeah. ‘42. Yes.
AB: ‘42.
WM: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: As I say yes when I joined it was ‘42. It was February. And so I went to Lord’s Cricket Ground you know. First time I’d ever been there you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: We were in the room of the, hallowed room as we were signing on.
GB: Gosh.
WM: And all the rest of it.
GB: Yeah.
WM: And then they formed us up and we walked to some very posh sort of flats in— that overlooked the zoo and they’d taken it over and it was a lovely flat. Would have been —
GB: Yeah.
WM: If there was just two or three of you in there but when there was twenty of you it was a bit hard going. So we started off and into the, we had to go into the zoo restaurant to eat. And that was our start you know so.
AB: Good gracious.
WM: They were all strangers to me. We all sort of welded together and —
AB: And you started your training then did you?
WM: Well not really. We had one or two exams.
AB: Right.
WM: We went from, we went to what they called Initial Training Wing and I went to Scarborough and I was there about four or five months.
AB: And you were training as a bomb aimer from day one were you?
WM: Oh no. No. No. No. I was actually hoping to be a pilot you know.
AB: Oh right.
WM: I think we all were, you know. So I did this three or four months at Scarborough. Then they moved me to near to Hull. I forget the name of the place now. And we flew in Tiger Moths.
AB: Right.
WM: And I never flew solo but they some, a wonderful old chappy he was. He was in the First World War. ‘Oh I think you’ll make it my lad,’ you know and he put me down for pilot training.
AB: Right.
WM: So I went from there to Manchester. We had to wait to get over to America where they were— either America or Africa. Canada. They picked you for Canada to go. And they took us up to Glasgow, near to Glasgow and got the ship there that we were going on.
GB: Yes.
WM: And we had a look. It was a misty day and then we saw the Queen Mary.
GB: Gosh.
WM: We went to Canada on the Queen Mary. That was quite a thing you know.
GB: Yes.
AB: Did you have any anxiety about submarines or anything like that?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Did you have any anxiety with submarines? Being torpedoed?
WM: No. As a matter of fact the Queen Mary and ships like that they never had any convoy because they were too fast. They reckoned that they couldn’t, you know, the submarines couldn’t —
AB: Couldn’t keep up with it.
WM: It would be a lucky shot if they got it, you know.
GB: Yeah. Gosh.
WM: ’Cause they were going too fast, and they were on a set zigzag course.
AB: Oh right.
WM: But anyway you know we had five days there and I think on board there would be about five or six hundred people. We got to Boston in America and transferred from there and they took us up to Canada.
AB: Oh right.
WM: But when we got to, we had a fit when we got to Boston. Took us off and paraded and in the front of the Queen Mary there was a gash as big as this room in the front of it. And, you know, ‘What happened here’ you know. And apparently it was on a zigzag course and there was a British warship somewhere and they couldn’t turn and it cut the —
GB: Gosh.
WM: It cut the ship in half and so they filled the front of the Queen Mary up with concrete.
AB: Concrete yes.
WM: And things like that to make it and took us across —
AB: To make it seaworthy. Yes. Yes.
WM: And then they put it out of service until while got it done.
AB: Good gracious.
WM: And that was a bit of a fit to start with you know.
AB: Yeah. Good.
WM: But then we went from there. And this was in October eventually. September. October. And we went up to Canada. Moncton in Canada and we went through the States on the American and it was, you know, I was only a kid of twenty at the time and it nearly, it was a beautiful day. Blue, the blue of the lakes and the sun you know and the leaves coming off all different colours. You know it was something that just stuck in my head all that time.
AB: Did you go by train or by bus?
WM: Sorry?
AB: How did you go? By train. Or by bus?
WM: Train.
AB: You went by train from Boston.
WM: Oh we went by train. Yes.
AB: To Canada.
WM: Yes. We went out from Boston in the evening and it would be the next afternoon before we got where we were going. So we got there and then from there they put us into quarters and I finished up going to Alberta and a flying field up there where we did the flying but the weather was a bit intermittent and all the rest of it. I just didn’t, I couldn’t fly. I mean in those days. I don’t think I’d even sat in car a dozen times in my life. You know.
GB: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: And I thought the pedals were there for pushing and all the rest of it.
GB: Yeah.
WM: And they, I never did go solo but I couldn’t land the thing you know to and so —
AB: What sort of planes.
WM: They said, ‘I’m sorry. Very much. I’m sorry.’
AB: You’re not the one.
WM: ‘You know, you’ll have to come off.’ You know. So.
AB: So what planes were you practising on in Canada?
WM: They were, they were Tiger Moths.
AB: Oh they were still Tiger Moths.
WM: And there was, they did have some Canadian ones as well.
AB: Oh right.
WM: But it was about the weather. I mean it got the wheels off and you landed on skis you know. There was that much snow about you know.
AB: Oh right. Oh right.
GB: Oh of course. Yeah.
AB: So it was very cold for you.
GB: Yeah.
WM: So anyway I, they said, ‘I’m sorry.’ Not me. There was quite a lot of us.
GB: Yeah.
WM: ‘And what would you like to do now?’ They gave you a choice of navigator or air bomber sort of thing
AB: Oh right.
WM: And I went for the air bomber thing. I don’t know why. And they then shipped me from Alberta right across to Ontario on the banks of the Lake Ontario.
GB: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: Where I then started my air bomber course and I went to a little island just in the lake and finished. Well no. Got half way through the course, then I went from there to the other side of the lake on the just seventy miles north of Niagara and finished there and on July the 23rd 1943 I qualified as a sergeant bomb aimer. Very proud of myself, you know.
AB: Well.
WM: And that was it. Yeah.
AB: And then you went back to England on the Queen Mary again.
WM: I came back. Well yes. I got to say that. We came back to Moncton which was a holding station and I eventually we got shipped by the Queen Mary but when I told you there was six hundred coming there was nineteen thousand going back on it.
GB: Golly.
WM: You see they were getting ready for you know obviously the build-up of the war.
GB:
WM: In the meantime America had come into it.
AB: Oh right.
WM: And it was full there so what we did you got a bunk for twenty four hours then you had to sleep where you could for the rest of the time while someone else had you, had your bunk.
AB: Oh right.
WM: Yes. So —
AB: Wow.
WM: But er —
AB: So you were with Canadians and Americans.
WM: There was Canadians. There was, there weren’t a great number of us air force people going back you know.
AB: Right
WM: Probably a couple of bus loads but the rest were Americans all going over
AB: Ah
WM: I can see it now. They used to queue up on one side of the boat and go right the way around queuing up to get some chocolate to bring home. Not a bar. We had a box you know.
GB: Gosh
WM: We could
AB: Oh right.
WM: A catering chappy I knew, he was with me, I hadn’t got enough money so he lent me five pounds so that I buy some more for my parents and things like that.
AB: Well five pounds was a lot of money in those days.
WM: Oh yes it was, you know but that was it. But anyway so we we got on like that. I always remember all these Americans they were all playing, what’s the big thing and I forget the name of the game that they were playing. Rolling dice and all the rest of it.
AB: Backgammon was it or something?
WM: No. They didn’t call it. I forget what it was. Anyway, they were there and they were all around. Some RAF officer was, permanent I should think you know, ‘Stop,’ he said, ‘I’m stopping you. I’m taking this.’ You know. And this American bloke pulled the thing, ‘I’m f-ing sure you’re not.’ You know and he ran off with it. They never did catch him because there were so many people there you know. So that was my adventures coming back but it was —
AB: Was the food good on the ship?
WM: Oh it was lovely yes.
AB: Good.
WM: Going out particularly you know the sort of bread was sort of off white thing we had in this country.
GB: Yes.
WM: Then we were back to food which was supplied from America.
GB: Oh gosh.
WM: Really we were eating very well indeed.
AB: It was better quality coming home than going out was it?
WM: Well it was more comfortable going out than coming back.
GB: Yes.
AB: Oh right. Yes.
WM: There was more than one place to eat you know.
AB: Yeah.
WM: And I know some people went there and had two plates. Two places to eat you know.
AB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: So that was it.
AB: So you got back then to Glasgow.
GB: Yes.
WM: Sorry?
AB: You got back to Glasgow then.
WM: No. No. We got back to Birkenhead actually.
AB: Oh Birkenhead ok.
GB: Birkenhead.
WM: Yes and that was it and I came home on leave and you know I was transferred and started my, the flying part of the air bombing more then anything else.
GB: So there was still more training to do when you got back.
WM: Oh yes. Yes.
GB: Gosh.
WM: I say I joined in 1942 and I was finished training at the beginning of 1944 really.
GB: Golly. Yes.
WM: I went to Glasgow for some flying. I did a bit of navigating as well.
GB: Yes.
WM: Then we used to go to southwest Scotland and we had to fly down to the Isle of Man or to Ireland you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: And do other exercises there.
GB: Yes. And what sort of planes were you flying in?
WM: We were flying in Ansons. Avro Ansons.
GB: Right.
WM: And then later on we got, when I got to Silverstone we were in Wellingtons.
GB: Right. Yes.
WM: And later on from that we changed. We went to Swinderby and in Stirlings.
GB: Yes.
WM: They were a bit of a dead loss. They’d got no height and they were no good for really for doing the job that they were built for so —
AB: Oh really.
WM: And then they transferred us from there to, from them to Lancasters.
GB: Lancasters.
WM: And then we had conversions there and then eventually we got swapped on to the —
AB: Was there much difference in the technique of bombing from different aeroplanes?
WM: Well it’s hard to say because I was, you know, there were only four pound bombs that we were practicing with. We didn’t use anything very big.
AB: Right.
WM: But the only difference was that I think well the Lancaster was that much faster than the Stirling you know.
AB: Right.
WM: It certainly fell into place quite easily. So that was it. I was going to say earlier on we had the crew. There’s a photograph of them at the back of the book there I think actually.
GB: Oh yes.
WM: Yeah. And they were the six of us and we got to the, we got to Swinderby and Doug, the flight engineer came in. This was obviously taken before but we got to the —
GB: Is that you there?
WM: No. That’s Smithy.
GB: Oh right.
WM: That’s me there.
GB: Oh right. Oh. The good looking one.
WM: That’s what my wife said this morning. And anyway we got our crew made up and the one there behind me.
GB: Yes.
WM: We don’t quite know what happened but he disappeared I think. Whether it was lack of moral fibre they called it. Whether it was illness or not I don’t know so —
GB: Gosh.
WM: But he did, he was very, he was a nervous sort of fellow. Nice man but —
GB: Yes.
WM: But —
GB: What was -?
WM: We were buckshee without a rear gunner.
GB: So this was the gang you got together in the hangar at Silverstone.
WM: It would be taken at Silverstone. Yes.
GB: Yes.
WM: Yes.
GB: And you all self-selected each other.
WM: Well yeah. I selected Smithy on the other side of the pilot.
GB: Yes.
WM: Then we walked along and the two in the middle Alec and the one behind him is Don.
GB: Yes.
WM: They came and then the other two lads were gunners. They were together and we picked them up as well.
GB: Right.
WM: Like I say we’d never seen any of them before.
GB: No. It’s amazing that.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And the guy who disappeared. What? Was he a gunner?
WM: He was a rear gunner.
GB: Rear gunner. I could tell by the size of him actually.
WM: Yeah but he —
GB: Goodness.
WM: Yeah.
GB: Was he a volunteer do you think?
WM: Oh they were all volunteers.
GB: They were all volunteers.
WM: They had to be.
GB: Yeah.
WM: He was an older man. He was married as well I think. You know you don’t know really what came of it but —
GB: No.
WM: It must have been the lack of moral fibre they called it because —
GB: Yes.
WM: We never saw him again. He just was there one day and gone the next.
AB: What would happen to him then?
WM: They stripped them down and sent them, put them down to aircrew 2. You know the lowest. Sweeping up and this sort of thing.
AB: So ground jobs basically.
WM: Oh yes. Yes.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: So that was poor old Smithy in that respect but I say he did us a good turn because on the squadron there was a Flight Officer Bate who’d got six trips still to do to complete a second tour and he came and flew with us and he was quite, very very helpful. He kept us. He knew what he was doing. He’d, I mean, he’d done something like fifty ops you see. And then when he finished they picked up another chap, Eldridge who lived quite near to Doug, the engineer who did know him at the time.
GB: Yes.
WM: He came along. He was on his second tour and it was quite helpful really.
AB: How long was a tour? Was it fifteen ops? Or thirty ops.
WM: Well thirty.
GB: Thirty.
AB: Thirty.
WM: It varied. I was told I would do thirty to start with.
AB: Right.
WM: But the war ran its course and they put it up from thirty to thirty five to do and then on the last day that I was doing my, last day. We were due to do our last op. We had to take the aircraft up for a test. An air test sort of the thing. And the skipper, Alec, said to us, ‘I’ve got a message for you. Now be quiet and listen.’ He said, ‘I’ve just been told to tell you that the cook tour has been cut from thirty five trips to thirty three trips so that means we’re finished.’ And we didn’t hear much more. We all went and put parachutes on just in case anything was going happen to him but so it went down from thirty five to thirty three having gone up from thirty to thirty five.
AB: Oh right.
WM: You see, I mean, before, before, I mean once D-day came it changed because it was all mainly all big cities and that sort of thing that were bombing. Towns.
AB: When did you go active?
WM: Sorry?
AB: When did you go active with your bombing?
WM: I’ll come to that in a second.
AB: Right. Ok. Sorry.
WM: And. No. It’s alright. And then the, it came to D-day up to that time they were bombing cities, engineering firms, and all the rest of it.
AB: Yes.
WM: And then after that they went on to supporting the ground who had invaded. The English the Americans to try and soften up the enemy and trying to ruin the German transport links and all the rest of it.
AB: The railways.
WM: Yes.
AB: And bridges.
WM: And that just caught us. We arrived at East Kirkby on the, on D-day minus one — June 4th so June 5th we went down there and everybody was full of the invasion and all the ships that they saw and we had quite a chat with them but it was another week before I actually they let us, let us go fly you see.
AB: Oh I see. A week after D-Day.
WM: A week. Yes. 11th or 12th
AB: So that was ’44.
WM: Yes.
AB: Yeah.
WM: So then I did a tour. Took me from there to October. I was looking the other day thinking about this. It was very very hectic really at the time. I worked it out. I just had a hundred days on the, in the squadron as such. Take off two weeks. Then I had leave. That’s only really basically there for eighty odd days and we got thirty four ops.
AB: So where were you based originally?
WM: Based at East Kirkby.
AB: East Kirkby. Ok.
WM: That’s about ten miles north of —
GB: So you emerged from the hangar in Silverstone as a team.
WM: Yes.
GB: And how did you become 630 Squadron? Part of it.
WM: Oh well they posted us to 630 Squadron.
GB: Right.
WM: Yeah. And they were I’m sure there were people from 630 Squadron.
GB: 630 yes.
WM: Went with them. We went with them and we don’t know where we picked them up from you know. Of course that was, there was a constant loss of course.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes.
WM: Just get a crew and they’d say well you’d better replace that one you see.
GB: So you went to 630 Squadron at East Kirkby which was quite close to Coningsby I think.
WM: Yes it was. Yes.
GB: Yeah. And started active service there. And where were you staying when you were there?
WM: Staying?
GB: Yes.
WM: Well East Kirkby was a wartime aerodrome and it was, it was not like the Scamptons or anything — there were lovely buildings and all the rest of it.
GB: No. Yes.
WM: And we had quite a lot of tin huts and things like that and we were actually, we were, the non-commissioned people were in Nissen huts.
GB: Right.
WM: And we were a good twenty minutes walk from there to the airfield and a quarter of an hour to the mess. The mess. So we, you know we had plenty to do to walk.
GB: You got plenty of exercise.
WM: So we used to go for meals and we’d pop in to the mess you know after from there but we didn’t make, well it was too busy really.
GB: Yeah.
WM: To get in there and I did, while I was there I did twenty four air operations at night and ten at daylight so it was, it was a lot more hectic really.
AB: What would, what would the gap be.
GB: Yes.
AB: You wouldn’t get a daytime raid and then a night time raid directly.
WM: Not exactly but I was looking at the times on some of those, you know. It was certainly within twenty four hours that we sometimes went up again you know but —
GB: Gosh yes I can see.
AB: Do you remember your first trip out?
WM: Yes. It was a bit of a laugh. It was to Caen. The British or Americans, someone, were in battle with the Germans and they wanted us to go over there with our bombs and drop them on the German side to make the progress better.
AB: Is this Caen? C A E N.
WM: That’s right.
AB: In France. Yes. Caen. Yes.
WM: In Normandy.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes. Normandy. Yes.
WM: Anyway, we got there and getting ready and message, ‘Stop bombing. Stop bombing.’ ‘No bombing’ and ‘return to base,’ sort of thing and it turned out that our people had broken through and there was the case that if we had bombed we would probably have bombed them as well.
AB: Oh right. Of course. Yes.
GB: Of course.
WM: Anyway, they stopped it and we went back to East Kirkby or wherever we were going and the [pause] we the person that was speaking to us said, ‘Have you got a bombload? So, ‘Yes we’d got a full bomb load.’ ‘Well you go out to the North Sea and you drop. You’ve got to drop it so you’ve got a safe all up landing weight,’ you see.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: Well I didn’t hear that but someone told me and anyway we went out there and opened the bomb doors and dropped the lot you see.
AB: Right. Yes.
WM: There was, I can remember seeing them now, they were sort of not primed to go off but some of them still went off, you know.
GB: Golly.
WM: When they hit the bottom.
GB: Yes.
WM: Anyway, the next day they wanted to see me and the pilot in the bombing room, you know. ‘What do you mean by dropping all those bombs at sea? You were only supposed to drop about six of them,’ you know to get all in the weight. I said I didn’t know anything about this.
GB: No.
WM: No. So anyway, ‘Well just don’t let it happen again,’ you know, sort of thing. I dropped, instead of, I think we had about ten or eleven bombs on board.
AB: And you should only have dropped four.
WM: I should have dropped half of them.
AB: You dropped half of them.
WM: And brought the rest of them back. Yeah.
AB: So do you prime the bombs before, before you drop them normally, in action?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Do you have to prime the bombs or are they already primed?
WM: Yes. Yeah. You primed. You’ve got a switch there sort of a thing. A switch.
AB: A switch. Was that your job as a bomb aimer?
WM: A part of it yes. I had to prime them.
AB: Right.
WM: And then when I dropped the bombs, when I dropped the bombs, you know, it released them one at a time.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: But quite often what happened was a sweep thing on the instrument and that’s plugged over each one and it knocked them off, you know. They didn’t always come off and you had to look through the best you could to see if there was anything lying on but —
AB: And if they were left you had to give them a push did you or what?
WM: No [laughs] but anyway when I, when I did that you know right that was it. They shut the bomb doors again and we were not allowed to open them again till they landed. The people who serviced the aircraft could do that but we weren’t allowed to do that.
AB: Why? What was the reason for that?
WM: Well in case it bumped. When you bumped your landing it did, you know, the hook that was holding it up would probably come loose or something.
AB: Oh I see. So you’re talking about a bomb left in the plane.
WM: It could have dropped on to the floor of the door.
AB: Yes.
WM: And just hit. If it hit the ground you know, in that condition it was quite likely to —
AB: Go off. Oh right. Ok.
GB: So at last you’re in Lancasters. You’re in East Kirkby and you’ve started your work and started your tour.
WM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
GB: And did the crew socialise together at all or-?
WM: We get on very very well together if we go out together.
GB: Yes.
WM: But we’d got three people who were officers there.
GB: Yes.
WM: They went into the officer’s mess so we didn’t really.
GB: Of course.
WM: We, the other, three or four of us, we stayed in the, we were in the same Nissen hut.
GB: Hut.
WM: Together.
GB: Right.
WM: And we played cards together and had a laugh.
GB: Yes.
WM: And all the rest of it but as I say we were glad to sleep to be truthful. You know after eight, nine, ten hours flying probably and you get a bit weary doing that you see.
AB: Was it cold in the aeroplane? In the Lancaster.
WM: No. We had not too bad. The, it was summertime anyway.
AB: Right.
WM: I never, I never felt really cold in there but the worst one of course was the rear gunner.
GB: Yes.
WM: They had Perspex in front of them. Some of them, it used to steam up so they had it cut or broken away and they were sitting there with their kit on and the wind, the cold was getting in.
AB: Getting cold. Right.
WM: It was terrible. A terrible job really.
AB: What height were you flying at? Fifteen thousand feet or —
WM: We were normally up to eighteen, nineteen.
AB: Oh right.
WM: One of the trips we did we were told to, we could up as high as we could. Went to Brunswick and we got to nearly twenty three thousand but it wouldn’t go any higher than that, you know.
AB: Oh the plane physically wouldn’t go higher.
WM: No. Apparently not. No.
AB: Did you have breathing apparatus?
WM: Oh yes. Oxygen. Yes.
AB: Oxygen. Yes.
WM: If you flew at night with the oxygen on when you got in the aircraft and when you daylight you, if you got to ten or eleven thousand feet the skipper told you to put your oxygen on.
AB: Oh right.
WM: So that was it really.
GB: And your operations took you all over the place.
WM: Yes. Yes.
GB: [Kiel?] Stuttgart. Caen. Lots in France.
WM: Yes. We, we never did go to Berlin or anything like that, you know.
GB: Oh right because —
WM: That more or less finished before I got on there.
GB: Oh. It had because it says on the history.
WM: Yes.
GB: Of 630 Squadron that there was a big responsibility for bombing Berlin.
WM: Yes. Yes.
GB: And also laying mines in Norway.
WM: Yes. We laid, we laid mines up in Heligoland once. It was the most boring flight we had flying over the North Sea.
GB: Sea. Yes.
AB: You went on and on.
WM: Dropping bombs. Putting the mines down and came back again.
AB: So a mine was just like a bomb was it? You dropped it and it floated when it hit the water.
WM: That type of thing yes.
AB: Yes. Yes. And these were the old fashioned mines with spikes sticking out.
WM: Oh no. No. Not that. Well I didn’t see them but they weren’t those sort. They came off the boats. These sort of floated but we didn’t see any. Well they couldn’t have put them on because they couldn’t have stuck in the aircraft you know.
AB: So they were cylinders basically that floated were they? Or —
WM: Yes.
AB: Oh I see.
WM: Some of them.
GB: And did you have to aim the mines when you dropped them or -?
WM: Well no. They gave you an area to drop them in.
GB: No. An area. Yeah.
WM: Because there was nothing to line your thing up.
GB: No. No. Did you have any near misses or —
WM: Yes. We had one or two really. We went to a place called Revigny.
GB: Oh yes.
WM: I think it’s in Northern France. I’m not sure.
GB: Northern France. Yes.
WM: And that was one. And another one, our fourth one was West Wesseling which was near, just below [pause] I forget the name.
AB: Sounds Holland. Sounds Netherlands.
GB: Yes.
AB: Was it the Netherlands?
WM: No. West Wesseling. Where the cathedral, the two, I can’t think of the name of the blessed place.
AB: In France or where?
WM: In Germany.
AB: In Germany. Oh right.
WM: Yes. On the Rhine it was.
AB: Oh right.
GB: The Revigny one. It says you were, you had light flak and fighters all along the route.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And it was poorly marked.
WM: Yes.
GB: And then you were damaged by flak on your return.
WM: Yes. Was that Revigny?
GB: Yes.
WM: Yes. Well that was something I sort of found out after the war. At the time the Germans started these fighters with upward firing guns. We knew nothing about them at the time but we were coming back this particular night and suddenly a terrific sort of bang and all the rest of it and the aircraft went into a dive.
GB: Gosh.
WM: And the skipper, you know the fateful words, ‘Get ready,’ we were supposed to bale out. Get ready you see. Well where I was lying you had a sort of double cushion. You pulled it up and the exit was below that. I had to pull that.
AB: Oh right.
WM: Well I got there ready to do that to where my station was and I all there ready to go and then he said, ‘Its ok. I’ve got control again,’ and he pulled it up. Doug, the engineer, helped him but he always told them he was halfway out the aircraft and I was pulling him back holding his bottom. Which we didn’t, you know. I mean I never opened the doors but that’s his tale and he liked it but —
AB: Do you keep your parachute next door to you all the time when you were flying or do you wear it or what?
WM: No. It’s in a sort of like a cushion more or less and you just stuck it up, got the hooks behind you. You picked it up and put them on.
AB: And just hooked it on. It was what a half a minute’s job was it or -?
WM: Well it would do if you put it one right way up. Yes. Yes. It’s quite, it clipped on quite easily really.
AB: Clipped on. Oh right.
WM: Anyway I’d got that on.
GB: Yes.
WM: Obviously waiting to go. Doug, he did say to me the other week that the Lancaster would start falling apart if you got to four hundred miles an hour and he said our aircraft was near on that.
AB: Gosh.
WM: But he, well someone, two of them pulled the thing back. Got it under control and we got back quite safely but you know if, I think, it hadn’t have been for Alec I think any of us might have stuck to getting out you know and all the risks you took then but I’m quite sure that Alec saved our lives that night.
GB: Yes. Sounds —
AB: Did you find out what caused the aircraft to drop afterwards?
WM: Well yeah. It was an upward firing gun you see.
AB: Yes.
WM: And it caught one of the wings. He didn’t get the petrol tanks that were in the —
AB: No.
WM: It just knocked the balance completely. Yes.
AB: The aileron. The aileron. I see ok.
WM: But that was that. Yes.
GB: Well it says here that you’d been, you thought it was flak that had hit your plane.
WM: Well yes that was earlier on. You know and —
GB: Yes but it may have been a night fighter.
WM: Yes.
GB: Who may have hit you from underneath?
WM: Yes. No. You know as I say we didn’t know anything about.
GB: No.
WM: Upward firing guns or anything like that. As it happened when we did dive it went, we went into cloud so the bloke couldn’t have followed us up.
AB: Couldn’t see you.
WM: He couldn’t see us so.
GB: And you had to go out flying again the following night.
WM: Yes. I see that. I saw that today. Yes. Oh they’re kind to you [laughs]
AB: A different plane obviously.
WM: Oh yes it would have to be. The wingtip put back on and things.
AB: Would the plane be taken away?
WM: Yes.
AB: Or would someone come in to repair it?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Would the plane be taken away or would somebody come in to repair it?
WM: Oh do it there. And it wasn’t bad enough for that you know. They did take some away to do but —
AB: Gosh.
WM: But that was — we lost four aircraft from our squadron that night and Wesseling, Wesseling, which was, what was the name? Cologne, just below Cologne. That’s right.
AB: Yes.
WM: And we were get there as well and that was a real bit of good luck to us. It was our fourth trip and the navigator, we think it was the navigator, made a mistake with his graphs and all the rest of it.
AB: With his bearings. Yeah.
WM: And we flew along and Geoff our tail gunner he used to, ‘Skip. One going down on the port bow.’ You know. So Alec said, ‘Ok. Thank you.’ Bit later, ‘Skip there’s another one going down,’ you know. This sort of thing. So it got just to the bit so Alec said, ‘Oh just make a note of it,’ you know. He didn’t believe him at all. Anyway, we got quite near to the target and, quite near to the target and he said right you’ve got to turn north east now and he called me and told me we will be at the target in seven minutes. It was twenty odd minutes before we got up there. He’d gone farther around and we had a clear run all the way around there to there and never saw — only saw these in the distance. When we got to Wesseling we were the only ones left there. There were no aircraft so we turned around and came back the same way.
AB: You dropped your —
WM: When we got back to East Kirkby they had to put the lights on again to put us, get us in, you know.
AB: But you dropped your bomb load in.
WM: Oh yeah. We dropped our load.
AB: But you were late were you? You were later than the rest of your squadron.
WM: Oh we were later than the rest of them. Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: We had a, well we had a four thousand pounder in that night so we didn’t want to bring that back you know.
GB: No.
AB: No. No. And how accurate was your bomb aiming?
WM: Well they, when you took your, dropped your bombs it also released a camera.
AB: Oh right.
GB: Oh really.
WM: Not a camera, a photo.
AB: Yeah. A camera. Yes.
WM: But we and then they put them on the, published them on the map the next day to show. We got two or three what we called aiming points.
AB: Yeah.
WM: And some not so far. Some obviously a long way out because not only that the aircraft’s got to stay straight and level.
AB: Yeah.
GB: Yeah.
WM: If you missed you were over there somewhere but —
AB: But did you know what you hit because —
WM: No. No.
AB: The time between releasing the bomb and actually going off it could be a minute or two couldn’t it?
WM: Yes but it went more or less the same speed forwards as you were going.
AB: Oh of course forward. Yes. Yes.
WM: But the wireless operator Don Tong, he lived in Winchester he did. He’s died now but he went back to Kirkby afterwards and worked in the, this part of the workshop. Whatever. And he got quite a lot of these photos and he’s gone and died on us and I suppose his Mrs has got them or given them to one of the kids you know, sort of thing.
GB: Oh right.
AB: Yes. Yes.
WM: I saw them but I didn’t see many of them you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: So that’s how they kept their eye on you.
AB: Could you see other aircraft from where you were sitting as a bomb aimer? Or lying.
WM: No. The most, a bit reassuring at times you were flying along and the aircraft starts going up or down and you’re in the windstream of the, of an aircraft in front of you somewhere so you knew there was someone there.
AB: Right.
WM: We had the unfortunate experience of seeing bombs drop on one of our own aircraft because that sort of lit up sort of thing.
AB: Oh gosh.
GB: Gosh.
AB: So one plane was above the other.
WM: Yes.
AB: And released the bombs onto it.
WM: Yes. And then what happens, it’s not like the Americans. They were all in formation. They tell you you’ve got to fly at eighteen thousand feet and at eighteen thousand feet that the pilot had to set a little instrument on his altimeter.
AB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: But your opinion of eighteen thousand feet might be different from mine from eighteen thousand five hundred.
AB: Right. Yes.
WM: So what they tell you all to fly at eighteen thousand. You notice this more on daylight than anything.
AB: Oh. There was a big variation in height.
GB: Yes.
WM: Depth. So if you are above there is a danger of being bombed.
AB: My goodness.
WM: And we did have a very sad one in September er in August. We went to a Dutch airfield, Deelan. And as we were flying along in the daylight you could see everybody then easily and we saw this aircraft. It could have been a hundred yards or so away from us and a bomb had hit that and knocked the wing off it and —
GB: Gosh.
WM: It crashed obviously.
AB: God.
WM: And it turned out, in fact, the pilot, he was in Holland he was a Dutch.
AB: Dutch pilot was he?
WM: Dutch pilot and he would have been, well it was his last trip but it would have been the last trip of his tour.
GB: Yes.
WM: If he did but he didn’t. It just killed him.
AB: They didn’t have time to bale out.
GB: Gosh. I can see that.
WM: Oh no. You wouldn’t have.
GB: No.
AB: No.
GB: 15th August. Deelan.
WM: Yeah. That’s right.
WM: Yes.
GB: Yes. Are you feeling ok? Do you need a drink of water?
WM: Oh no. I’m alright. Thank you. No. No.
GB: So active service at East Kirkby continued and you were reaching the end of your tour.
WM: Yes.
GB: And then what? What happened after your tour?
WM: Oh well. I always feel a little bit guilty about this. We, we finished on the 5th of October and they wanted to get rid of us.
AB: Was this ’45.
WM: ’44.
GB: ’44.
WM: ‘44 right. Yeah. Yeah.
WM: And they wanted to, they moved you on because they wanted to bring people in.
GB: Yes.
WM: And anyway they took us to the railway station at Boston I suppose and we got off at Peterborough. We were all sitting there chatting. ‘Well I’m off now,’ you know. ‘What’s your telephone number?’ ‘What’s your address?’ You know. And all things like that and we just walked out of each other’s lives you know. We did, we did have addresses for Christmas cards and things like that but —
AB: But why did you finish in ‘44 because the war didn’t finish until ‘45.
WM: Oh well yes that’s another story but anyway I, we got ready as I say — to get back to this we got off at Peterborough and we, I came through to Kettering and the others went off to where they lived. Two lived in Kent, one lived in Winchester. Jock came from Scotland and I think Geoff came from Birmingham, you know. It was all, all different so we that was it and to be truthful I mean I got married a year later and you know you put this to one side and it was only what twenty, thirty years afterwards when they started having reunions that we got back into it you know.
AB: Back together.
GB: You met again.
WM: It’s became a massive part of my life really talking and being.
GB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: But, so that was it.
GB: So the whole crew did meet up again with the reunions.
WM: Well I said earlier that only two of us are alive. Two of us as far as we know.
GB: Yes.
WM: We, Smithy, the what do you call it, he trained in South Africa and we’ve got an idea that he picked up a girl out there and went back to her after the war ‘cause we heard nothing more about him. Jock, behind him — very, very sad. He married and he went to immigrate to New Zealand. His wife got an incurable illness and it was too much for him and he did himself in.
GB: Oh goodness.
WM: Yeah.
AB: So just going back to my earlier question why did you finish in ‘44 when the war finished in ’45?
WM: Well I finished my first tour.
GB: Yeah. You’re not expected to fly.
WM: Flying then. After that they sent me to train to be an instructor and all the rest.
AB: Oh you were taken off active service basically.
WM: Yes.
GB: Yes.
AB: Oh I see.
WM: And after so many months they wanted me to. Well they didn’t. They crewed us up. I was at, over in North Luffenham at the time.
AB: Oh yes.
WM: Flying with them. They crewed us up and we then went through a course of flying and we were going out to the Far East and we finished the course there and they sent us home on leave and they’d say, you know, when we’d got to go and the last day of the leave VJ day came along. They’d bombed Japan into submission.
GB: Yes.
WM: And you report back to North Luffenham. Well I hadn’t got a car or anything so I see it’s VJ day and I didn’t go. I stayed at home. Went the next day.
AB: So, yeah —
WM: When I got there the others had gone. They’d all been transferred to somewhere else.
AB: So did you actually go to the Far East yourself?
WM: Sorry?
AB: Did you actually transfer to the Far East yourself?
WM: No. I didn’t volunteer. No. No.
AB: You didn’t. Sorry.
WM: And so you know with the war ending they just cancelled all that.
AB: Yes.
WM: I had to go to a special place near Harrogate or somewhere and they said, ‘You’ve got to finish flying now. You’ll keep your rank but what do you want to do?’ Gave you a great list. And I didn’t know. I said, ‘Oh well,’ and looked — Post Office. I got to work in a Post Office sort of thing so they did and, ‘Where would you like to be posted to?’ And I put Silverstone or Desborough or something like and anyway they did but then two months later I was on my way to India [laughs] to Bombay and Calcutta where I had eight, ten months before they demobbed me in 1946.
AB: And how did you get to Bombay?
WM: By boat.
AB: By boat. By ship.
WM: Naval boat. It was Devonshire. A destroyer.
AB: Oh really. A destroyer.
WM: So we went on that. They were doing a bit of trooping.
AB: Oh right.
WM: So I had to go.
AB: How long did that trip take? Two or three weeks.
WM: 15th to the 30th of December.
AB: Oh two weeks.
WM: We got there. No. 31st. We got there on New Year’s Eve.
AB: Right. And you went down through Suez Canal?
WM: Yes we did. We were the first ones after the war finished to go down there. Yes that was quite an experience.
AB: Wow.
GB: Wow.
AB: Gosh. And you were training people in Calcutta and Bombay were you?
WM: No. I was, had a great time really. The mail used to come in and I’d got about three or two Indians. They were having to sorting them out. ‘Where is this place?’ You know.
AB: Oh this is part of the Post Office. Yes. You —
GB: Oh I see.
AB: This was the forces post you were looking after.
WM: Forces post. Yes.
AB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: And you know if the people had been demobbed they went in to, the letters went and they had to come back this way.
GB: Well that was quite a long way from Desborough then wasn’t it [laughs]
WM: Yeah. It was. Yes [laughs]
AB: Did you meet any nice girls in India?
WM: Did I?
AB: Did you meet any nice girls? Any nice ladies.
WM: No. No. Didn’t. No I didn’t. [laughs] No.
AB: Right.
WM: I didn’t want to go there.
GB: No.
WM: But having been there I’m glad I’ve been. It was quite a —
GB: Yes. Incredible.
WM: We had a great time there. Fun. We used to go to the Post Office building and then go from there to an American mess actually for eating and we used to get these blokes with their — what do you call it? Where you sat in them.
GB: Yes.
AB: Rickshaws or whatever.
GB: Rickshaws.
WM: Rickshaws. Yeah.
AB: Yes.
WM: And then we would have a race to see who would get there first you know and all the rest of it.
AB: And did you get on with Indian food alright?
WM: Any?
AB: Did you get on with Indian food? Curries and things.
WM: I like curry but as I say we were eating in an American mess.
AB: Ah. So it was all American food. Yes.
WM: Yes.
AB: Gosh.
WM: So that was, at the end of the time it was a nice way to finish. But as Pauline was saying earlier to you we came back to Liverpool and from Liverpool to Preston where they demobbed us.
GB: Yes.
WM: You went in one door and came out twenty minutes later with a bag with your clothes in and that was it. Nobody said thank you very much or —
GB: Thank you.
AB: They issued you with a standard suit and standard shirt and —
WM: Yeah. ‘What size are you?’ You know and then they threw them at you and you came with a hat on and all the rest of it.
AB: Oh. Good grief.
WM: And it was just as well ‘cause they were the only suits I’d got at the time. You know. I’d been married. I was married before we went to India.
GB: Gosh.
WM: So you know that was one of the reasons I didn’t want to go.
GB: Yes. Yes.
WM: The only other thing I didn’t like about that that we were going on the Devonshire and I was a warrant officer by this time and in the mess there and Sunday morning it was and we just either coming out or going in the Bay of Biscay and I was really feeling seasick and then the radio came on. Tonight’s, ‘Today’s church service is from Fuller Chapel in Kettering,’ And that’s where I was married three weeks, a month before.
GB: Oh no.
AB: Gosh.
WM: I wasn’t very pleased about that. No.
GB: No. I can imagine.
WM: Yes. So that was it.
GB: So really leaving the air force was a bit of an anti-climax.
WM: Yes.
GB: Compared to what you’d been through. What did some of the others go on to do after the end of the active service?
WM: Well the flight engineer was Smithy. It was [pause] I’ll get his name in a minute. He went to, he’s not on there.
GB: No.
WM: He went back to Kirkby and he was a training flight engineer. He was telling them what to do he was. Doug that was.
GB: Yes.
WM: Telling them what to do. So he went back to East Kirkby as well.
GB: Yes.
WM: Alec became a pilot at, near to Brackley.
AB: Silverstone.
WM: Hmmn?
AB: Silverstone.
WM: No. Between Silverstone. Near to.
AB: Hinton in the Hedges was it? Or something like that?
WM: Something like that.
AB: Yeah.
WM: Anyway he was there. We didn’t know that. I mean he was only twenty, thirty miles away from us.
GB: Gosh yes.
WM: But as I say we don’t know what happened to him. [unclear] So that was it.
GB: Which was the one that went to New Zealand.
WM: This one.
GB: Oh right.
WM: Yes. So —
GB: And —
WM: That was it. I say then it was nearly thirty years later we met up at Boston.
GB: Yes.
WM: For a meal with their wives and things.
GB: Did you meet your skip there?
WM: The skipper was there. Yes. Yeah.
GB: What was he doing by then?
WM: Well as I say he went near to [pause]
GB: Brackley.
WM: Near to Brackley.
GB: Yeah.
WM: To train. Whether he got an early release I don’t know because his father had a business. Whether they got him out of it I don’t know.
GB: So he didn’t continue as a pilot.
WM: Sorry?
GB: He didn’t continue as a pilot in civilian life.
WM: Oh no. No. No. After the war we went somewhere where there was a Lancaster and he said you know I must have been a bloody fool to fly a thing that, you know. [laughs]
AB: Have you ever been back to see an old Lancaster. Have you been to —?
WM: I’ve been to East Kirkby.
AB: East Kirkby. You’ve been there.
WM: That’s right. Yes.
AB: Does that bring back memories?
WM: Oh it does indeed.
AB: Yeah.
WM: We went once when they had the engines running, you know, running it up and down the -
AB: Oh the runway.
WM: And the men, you know, well they were older than me at the time and there were tears in their eyes as they saw the aircraft go by.
AB: Gosh.
WM: Amazing.
GB: Were you ever frightened?
WM: You know I’d a thought you would probably ask that.
GB: Yeah.
WM: I think at that age I was I wasn’t frightened. I was a bit apprehensive I suppose but I never thought about not getting back sort of thing but when I saw this I told you about this aircraft getting bombed.
GB: Yes.
WM: That did make me frightened because —
GB: Yes.
WM: When you saw one of the aircraft above you were getting, coming up from underneath.
GB: Yes.
WM: Suddenly coming down it did worry me a bit because I was sufficiently near the end of my tour and it was —
GB: Yeah. Your tour, your tour was a very active one wasn’t it? In that you were up every day
WM: Oh yes.
GB: Or every other day.
WM: Yes.
GB: You didn’t have time to be worried really. You were so busy.
WM: I think you know I did, in about eighty, eighty odd days you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: And got them all done, you know, and it was —
AB: Did you leave a letter behind every time you went off saying with your wishes if you didn’t return?
WM: No. I didn’t truthfully. No. No.
AB: Oh really? I thought that was encouraged. Oh right.
WM: A lot of people did you know but no we weren’t advised to do it. The only thing that annoyed me they told us not to keep a diary. Now I wish I had have done.
GB: Yes.
WM: Because a lot of people have made a lot of money writing about what happened.
GB: Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.
WM: Yeah. It was very —
GB: And so you came back to civilian life and resumed with your same company.
WM: Oh I did. I did. Yes. Indeed. I wrote an eight page thing about what I did.
GB: Yes.
WM: In my [pause] get my glasses on.
GB: There’s some here but they’re [unclear].
WM: No. I don’t. Anyway what I was going to say was that I went back to Stewart’s and Lloyds and I was on about three pounds fifteen shillings a week. I think that’s what I was you know and after —
AB: Did you go back to your old job as administration?
WM: They moved me on a little bit to three pounds fifteen. I was twenty four nearly and I got a wife and a child on the way then.
AB: Right.
WM: And I I got the pay so I went in to see the manager who was a bit of an idiot anyway and I said about that. He said, ‘Well let me see,’ he said, ‘Well,’ l he said, ‘You’re classed as a junior.’ And I’d been in charge of a blooming aircraft when I was flying over a target you know but I’m still a junior. But he said until you’re twenty five. But he said let me see [?] in three weeks’ time. He said, ‘You’ll get a good rise then.’ The next payday I got six shillings extra, you know.
AB: Yeah.
WM: So that was, I put that just as a tailpiece on my story.
AB: Wow.
WM: But that was it. It just makes you wonder. I remember when we were working there we walked out of the office once and one of the seniors, a man in to his fifties or early sixties, his payslip fell on the floor and being like we did they picked it up. Forty eight pounds a month he was getting you know. So it just showed how things have changed. Yeah.
GB: Changed. Absolutely.
WM: No I was going to say in the Nissen hut there were four of us and three of four of another crew there and at the far end from the door there was a chappy, an older chappy. He seemed to be in bed more than anything so he said — we were having a laugh and a giggle, ‘Can’t you people want to sleep?’ This sort of thing you know. Miserable so and so we called him. Anyway, I came home on leave and I saw in the paper that his name was Robert [Dodd?] and it said he was killed in a raid and he was this bloke. He went to the same school as me but he was ten years older than me.
GB: Oh goodness.
WM: So I never really got talking to him. He was —
GB: No.
WM: At twenty nine they were old in those days, you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: So it’s just amazing how these things —
GB: Yes.
WM: And when I was in Canada, in Alberta I saw the name of a pilot trainer. His name was Hart and his father had a printing factory in Kettering. It’s funny how you run into these people isn’t it.
GB: Goodness. Yes. Well it was a big part of your life and you got to go on the Queen Mary.
WM: Oh yes.
GB: See Canada.
WM: Yes. Oh yes. I wouldn’t have had that opportunity.
GB: I know. And then see Lincolnshire. A lot of Lincolnshire.
WM: Yeah.
GB: And then suddenly it was all over and finished.
WM: Oh yes. I was very, it took me a long while to settle down. Truthfully.
GB: Oh I can imagine. Yes.
WM: I got something in there about my — all the places I went.
GB: Yes.
WM: In nearly five, four and a half years or so I went to forty different stations so you know you never got settled down.
GB: No.
WM: And then to suddenly to get back, you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: Doing the same thing day after day.
GB: Yes.
WM: Was a bit of a problem. Yeah.
GB: It must have been.
AB: You got one or two entries in your logbook here. Formation flying. Was that practicing?
WM: It would be, yes. Yes.
AB: And you just what? Take off over the North Sea or something would you?
WM: Yes. Yes. Yes.
AB: And you’ve been to Caen. Instructed not to bomb.
GB: Yes.
AB: [Ou Nessier?] Oudon.
WM: Yeah.
AB: Little flak. Well marked.
WM: Yeah
AB: You went to [Bouvier?]. Bombed through the cloud. Little light flak. Wesseling. Heavy and light flak.
WM: Yeah.
AB: Spotlights ineffective. Bombed through cloud. That’s why they were ineffective I should imagine weren’t they? Then —
WM: Of course we had this thing — H2s which was underneath the body of the aircraft. There was a sort of thing that shape.
GB: Right.
WM: And that was, it gave a picture of what was on the ground or supposed to and I had to go and help the, sit with the navigator and I could hardly make head nor tail of it and he was bad. We were supposed to bomb when we could see the outline what we wanted to bomb but it didn’t come off really.
AB: So the H2S was an identification system.
WM: That was H2S. Yes.
AB: Because H2S is a gas isn’t it but that’s nothing to do with the gas. This was an identification system.
WM: Yes it was. Yes. Yes.
AB: Oh I see. Gosh. Did you have much trouble with fighters? Fighters attacking you?
WM: Any?
AB: Any problems with fighters.
WM: No. No.
AB: Messerschmitt’s attacking you?
WM: I thought about this. I don’t recollect either the flight er the two rear gunners or myself firing the guns in anger.
GB: Oh really.
WM: At all. Not the whole time. No.
AB: Good gracious.
WM: We went to Bremerhaven. One of my last trips and I said, ‘Skip there’s an aircraft above,’ you know and my job — I had the front guns you see.
AB: You had the front guns.
WM: Yes. If it had to I only had to get up there in case of emergency and I got up and got the guns trained up and Jock the mid-upper gunner said, ‘Ay stop. It’s a Lancaster.’ [laughs]
AB: But here you’ve got, you’ve got one of your operations — Pommereval. Target well marked. Fighters. No flak. So does that mean you encountered Messerschmitts or what?
WM: No. It wouldn’t have been Messerschmitt. I don’t, we didn’t have seen anything near at hand like that I don’t think.
AB: It just says, “Fighters. No flak.” So it would be enemy fighters presumably.
WM: Oh yes. Indeed. Sorry. Yes. It would be. Yes.
AB: But they didn’t cause you any trouble.
WM: Well luckily no. No. No. We had more trouble with flak coming up from the ground.
AB: Yes.
WM: Rather than —
AB: Than fighters
GB: I think. Yeah. I think the Messerschmitt had been pretty much knocked out by 1944 hadn’t they?
AB: Ah yes.
GB: The night fighter weren’t. So the 630 Squadron is Death By Night.
WM: Yes.
GB: And you were mostly a night bombing outfit.
WM: Yes.
GB: But then it was after the war the squadron finished and —
WM: Yes it went.
GB: Yes.
WM: They did it a bit I think with the American Air Force. Enlarged the runway a bit.
GB: Yes.
WM: But I didn’t see. Yeah. Actually we, you know, we were only 1943- 45 the aerodrome was in use.
GB: Yes.
WM: But the bomb, apparently the bombing record was very good you know. The number of bombs we dropped and all the rest of it.
AB: Did you get any subsequent recognition? Any sort of service medals and things like that?
WM: We don’t talk about that. No. Just got the France and German medal. If we’d started a month earlier we would have got Aircrew Europe medal.
AB: Right.
WM: But once the, you got back to the invasion, we got the France and German one. And we, well we think that Winston Churchill played dirty with the Bomber Command.
GB: Yes.
WM: In that, following the raid over Dresden, he denied all knowledge of this sort of thing yet apparently, you read that he gave Butch Harris the ok to do this and apparently the Russians had asked them to bomb Dresden as well and just to keep in with what the politicians doing he denied all and on the speech he made on VE day, I think it was, he ignored Bomber Command altogether. And about three years ago the pressure was put on Cameron to do something and I eventually got a little bit of tin to put on the bottom of my medals to say that I was in, you know, flying.
AB: Oh gosh. Right.
WM: That’s a bit of sore point you know.
GB: It is. Yes. Very much so.
WM: I mean when you think of the, I mean every other person was going to get killed according to what you read about it later.
GB: Yes. Yeah.
WM: Fifty five thousand.
GB: Yes.
WM: Of them against a hundred and twenty thousand. What do you call it?
GB: Including your younger brother.
WM: Oh indeed. Yes. We don’t know what happened there you see.
AB: And he was flying Lancasters as a pilot. Was he a pilot? Your brother.
WM: No. He was a flight engineer.
AB: Flight engineer.
WM: He was only nineteen you know. But I think —
AB: Yeah. And you said he was returning and crashed at Bridlington.
WM: Sorry?
AB: He crashed at Bridlington.
WM: Yes. Near to Bridlington. They were coming in to land and it landed. So that was it you know.
AB: And a Lancaster again was it?
WM: Oh it was a Lancaster. Yes.
AB: And had he been on duty that night.
WM: He’d been to Dusseldorf and he was just returning.
AB: He’d been coming back from Dusseldorf.
WM: Yes.
AB: Right. Ok.
WM: I think it was about his eighth raid that he did.
GB: Gosh.
WM: So —
AB: Well.
WM: So of course you see we wouldn’t tell. He told me that he was flying but he said, ‘Don’t say anything to mum,’ ‘cause you know she’d had an anxious time while I was doing it.
GB: Yes.
AB: Yes.
WM: And a month later, or two months later he was, he was killed and it was a bigger shock then ever you know. And for my dad particularly. He never got over it. No. That’s the way it goes.
GB: You were a very lucky crew.
WM: Oh indeed. Yes. I can’t speak highly enough of them you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: On the ground we were all closely knit. We were very very friendly. Alec, he was the leader on the ground as well, you know.
GB: Exactly.
WM: He, in the air he was a different, you needn’t say, ‘Smithy, can you tell me what route to take?’ ‘Can you do this Jock,’ you know. If you spoke to him you, flight engineer. Mid upper gunner. You know you had to speak to him like that and do it.
AB: Yeah.
WM: All discipline and things like that.
GB: Yeah.
WM: That’s how it goes.
GB: But obviously it had meant a lot to Alec as well in that when he did die finally he left you all —
WM: Two hundred pounds each. Yes.
GB: Two hundred pounds each.
WM: Yeah. Yes. What it was again [laughs] He was a lovely chap really. He died of cancer, you know.
GB: Oh. No
WM: And that was it. His daughter was a, wrote in the Daily Express and Daily Telegraph and things like that.
GB: Oh really.
WM: She came up here once in the other room with a photographer and took no end of photos of me and we chatted away about it but then something else happened and it got wiped and it never did get into the paper but —
GB: Well anything else you’d like to add? It doesn’t matter if you remember other things
WM: No. No.
GB: You can email them to me.
WM: No. I don’t think so. You know, it was, well it’s hard to say. I mean you know what the end result when you’re dropping bombs on people but it was an experience that has stuck with me.
GB: Absolutely.
WM: Up to now.
GB: Yes.
WM: All the time, you know.
GB: Yes.
WM: And obviously I think it altered my life as well quite a bit you know.
GB: Yes. But you came back eventually to the same girl and the same company.
WM: Oh indeed. Yes. Yes. Yes
GB: But —
WM: I did yes. So there we go.
GB: But thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for your contribution.
WM: Nothing else you want to add is there?
GB: I don’t think so but if there is we can always add it later.
WM: Yes. Good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Walter Morris
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gill Barnes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMorrisW170218
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Walter Morris was born in Kettering and started employment in 1939; after a while, older workers disappeared mostly to join the Territorial Army. He enlisted in the Air Training Corps, 101 Squadron, based at RAF Grafton Underwood. Walter reported to Lord’s Cricket Ground in February 1942, followed by Initial Training Wing and at Scarborough. Then he moved to Hull where he flew Tiger Moths. During his training in Canada he flew Tiger Moths and other types, ending up qualifying as a bomb aimer. Back to Great Britain, he was posted at RAF Silverstone, RAF Swinderby and RAF East Kirkby. He flew Anson Wellingtons Stirlings and Lancasters. Discusses aircrew selection, enemy aircraft, flying conditions, day and night bombing, aircraft, bomb damage, crew morale, operational tours, the Normandy campaign with details on operations in Germany, France and Netherlands. Walter became an instructor after the end of the first tour. He was re-crewed at RAF North Luffenham for far east service, but was posted in India until demobilised in 1946. He kept in touch with the air crew for reunions.
Format
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01:18:09 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
India
Netherlands
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1946
630 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bomb struck
bombing
crewing up
home front
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Silverstone
RAF Swinderby
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
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Title
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Willis, Vera
V Willis
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Willis, V
Description
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Two oral history interviews with Vera Willis (2136822 Women's Auxiliary Air Force).
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2015-08-15
2015-08-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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VW: When you get to my age and you’re stuck in one place all the time you get rather sort of ugh don’t you and I love doing things.
HH: Well, Vera, thank you very much for agreeing to talk today to the Bomber Command project.
VW: Not at all. Anything. Anything to do with the air force I’m absolutely willing to do.
HH: So let’s just — thank you. Well that’s just completely wonderful. It’s lovely to meet you and for the purposes of the recording I’m just going to say that it’s the 28th of August 2015 and we’re sitting in Vera Willis’ lounge in Holton Holegate near Spilsby in Lincolnshire.
VW: Yes.
HH: Great. Ok.
VW: That’s super.
HH: And Vera, thank you again for chatting to us today.
VW: Well I’m here.
HH: Because you have so many stories to tell.
VW: Once upon a time.
HH: About your experiences as a WAAF with Bomber Command.
VW: I’ve got so many funny ones.
HH: Before we start off telling about the war itself.
VW: Yes.
HH: Would you like just to tell us a little bit about your younger years?
VW: Yes.
HH: Where you were born and brought up.
VW: Oh yes.
HH: And how come it was that you joined the WAAFs.
VW: Yes.
HH: So, carry on and tell us that.
VW: Right. When do you want me to start? Now?
HH: Yeah.
VW: Well I’ll go, I’ll start from when I went to school. I was born in Alford and then we moved to Thorp St Peter, to the rectory. Father isn’t a parson. He wasn’t a parson or anything. It was just, you know, a normal house. And I have to start from when I left school I suppose, won’t I? So, I left school when I was, I think I was nearly sixteen because I didn’t, I wasn’t, I was a country girl. Father taught me to shoot and I had a horse and I had that sort of beginning.
HH: Wonderful.
VW: It was lovely. But I didn’t want a job as such because I can’t be enclosed. I had to be somewhere where I was being out. Now, funnily enough I went for six months to be a nurse. To Louth Hospital. And that was a dead loss. To me that was hopeless. I mean, it was all wrong, anyway. So, I decided that I’d love to, I loved aeroplanes and I’d like to be in the air force. Well, mother said, ‘Oh darling, you’ll be leaving home,’ blah blah blah and daddy said, ‘What will I do?’ So, I said, ‘Well, never mind. I’m definitely going to be, I’m going in to the air force.’ So I made up my mind. I wrote and I went to Lincoln and I joined up. I said, and the only reason I’ll be in the air force is I’ll drive and I don’t want any indoor sort of — I don’t want a job indoor or anything like that. I want, I want to drive and I love driving. So that’s what they did. I went to Lincoln and I stayed there for quite a long time. I loved every moment of it. The food was marvellous. I loved all the people and I thoroughly enjoyed myself. And then I moved from Lincoln to Dunholme and Fiskerton. That’s a bit. I did, when I was at Dunholme, we used to have to go over the river in a boat that went regularly. It was so that we could go to Lincoln by a train and the station was the other side of the river. And I got there and I never wore a great coat because I hate heavy clothes. And we got half way across and the people that got on were so many and they were all stood one side of the ferry and we went in. Straight in. And having clothes on, I mean I can swim, like, well but I couldn’t and I yelled, ‘Help,’ and I saw somebody dive in from the bridge at the top and I thought, ‘Whizzo, I’m alright.’ But we lost, lost two airmen and it wasn’t very funny. And anyway, they got me out and they got back to the [pause] to my thingy, put me in bed and gave me a bath and rang mum. And not being very far away mother comes hot foot. ‘Trust you,’ she said, ‘Trust you.’ Anyway, that was only one thing that happened. All sorts of strange things happened to me but the — I don’t know. There’s something about the air force that — I’m sure there was something in my last life that was a lot like it because I had a wonderful time and I worked ever so hard and I drove all night and I did all sorts of rescue things but I’ll tell you about those when I, yeah.
HH: So, you started off in Lincoln and then Dunholme.
VW: And then, oh yes, then I went to Dunholme. And Fiskerton comes into it somewhere which is not very far from Dunholme but I was in that area. And in —when I was in Dunholme they had a lovely village and a village shop and the man who had the baker’s shop, you know, the food shop, he had a horse in the field not far away and I said to him one day, I said, ‘Somebody said that was your horse,’ I said, ‘Do you ride it very often?’ And he said, ‘No. I can’t,’ he said, ‘The poor thing,’ he said, ‘He never gets out.’ I said, ‘Well I’ll ride him if you give me the tie. I’ll deal with it and I’ll ride him.’ And I got permission to and I went down to the field and did him up and off we went and that was quite nice. And I stayed at Dunholme for quite a long time. But let me get myself straight. Now where did I go from there? Fiskerton. Where does Fiskerton come in? But I finished off [pause] yes. I can go from there because they had to, they moved you around to sort of get you in a place where you were doing the best. You know. And I loved driving and I didn’t mind driving a long distance and I didn’t mind driving through the night or anything, you know. And then I moved from there to, I think my best bet actually is to East Kirkby.
HH: So then you were stationed at East Kirkby.
VW: Yeah. And from there everything happened.
HH: Tell us about it.
VW: Yes. We [pause] how must — I’ve been going through it so much that I’m getting myself — I’ve got to get it right because it’s a hell of a long time ago.
HH: It is. And it’s fantastic that you remember so much.
VW: Oh, I’ve remembered lots more. From East Kirkby I did an awful lot. We had one or two rather nasty — excuse me, German thingies. They went all down one of the runways and that caused rather a lot of, you know, bother. But what did I do from there?
HH: So is it, is it at East Kirkby that the Germans actually bombed the runway?
VW: Yes. I think so because I remember. I knew the skipper who was — I think he’d just come from somewhere. They’d all come in and I think the Germans followed them in or something because they got out of the way. I don’t think they were any real, sort of — nobody was terribly hurt. I think it was just one of those sort of quick whizzes. But East Kirkby was really very busy and [pause] but I wanted to start from the beginning. You’ll have to come again.
HH: I can. With pleasure.
VW: Let me give you something that’s really sort of [pause] oh yes. Here at Spilsby.
Other 2: Alright. Just keep going.
VW: At Spilsby everything was going beautifully and I was whizzing along. I’d got something in the back of the, of the garry for the sergeant because they have, they are in the caravan at the end of the runway and don’t — and I’d got his tea or his dinner or something or whatever I had. It was for him. And I was tootling along nicely and all of a sudden there was a [whoo] and a sort of wind whizzed through my open windows and skitted by my ear and I got out. A bit like this, out of the van — but I waited. I thought well if anything’s happened and any of the men are hurt I’ll wait here and pick them up and take them back, you see. So anyway, Duncan Lawson, Squadron Leader Lawson who we knew very well — he used to go shooting with daddy. He came around. He said, ‘Vera, what are you doing here?’ So, I said, ‘I’m going to the — taking the food to the sergeant in the — ’ He said, ‘Go back to the — you shouldn’t be here.’ So, I said, ‘Well, what are you doing here then?’ I said, ‘I got here first.’ And he said, ‘Do as I say.’ I said, ‘I will. I’ll see you later.’ ‘Cause I knew him ever so well and he was very bossy on thingy and he went and picked them up and he got all the — you know.
HH: The credit.
VW: Oh yes.
HH: So, had there been an explosion?
VW: Oh yeah. They had one of the [pause] they were doing one of the thingies up, you know, and getting them ready.
HH: Yes.
VW: And turned the thing around the wrong way and the bloody thing went up in the air. it was terrific. I mean, I wondered what had hit us. I sort of sat there and I was quite ready and I thought, ‘Oh the poor boys,’ and I was all ready to pick them up but no. I didn’t get a chance so I went straight to the hospital and I was there and I said, ‘I’ve come to help you because I know there will be one of the boys, or some of the boys will be badly hurt,’ because, you know, they were quite close. And, so I stayed there and I said, anything I can do? I’ll be with you in the operating theatre. Anything you like. And I stayed there and helped them and quite a few people came in. Some of the girls came, sat in the van, the garage and just sat there. I said, ‘What the hell are you doing sitting there. Come in and help.’ ‘Oh no. We’re not going in there.’ Honestly. We did come across some funnies. Honestly. And I had, I don’t know what father thought because we only lived a little way away and our rectory at Little Steeping was just like from here to the bottom of the drive and poor daddy, ‘I hope Vera’s alright.’ But they might have known I was alright. I mean I always managed to scrape out of all sorts of funny —
HH: Yeah.
VW: Position.
HH: Yeah. And was it, Vera, when you were at East Kirkby that you got to drive some quite remarkable people around?
VW: Oh yes. And I did and I would have loved to done more about it but I had to pick up this bloke and I picked him up and I can remember going through East Kirkby and I said, ‘Who are you?’ You know, ‘Would you tell me who you are?’ And he said, ‘Yes, I’m Mussolini’s son.’ Now, I’ve got really worried about that. How could he possibly be but he looked sort of, he did, he just —
HH: Extraordinary.
VW: But I can’t even remember where I dropped him off but I picked him up on the airfield so he must have been somebody that somebody knew something about. And he was only — he wasn’t very old. But how could he have been Mussolini’s son?
HH: What a puzzle. And was it also at East Kirkby when you took a rather important person to Gibraltar Point?
VW: Oh yes. Yes.
HH: Tell us about it.
VW: Yes. We took him up to — it was for the bomb. You know the [pause] to see how, when they dropped the thingy if that —
HH: It was the bouncing bomb wasn’t it?
VW: Yes.
HH: Yes.
VW: And they went up there to sort of do some try outs and thingies.
HH: And how did you discover who it was that you were driving?
VW: Oh, because they, they told me. Yeah.
HH: And it was Barnes Wallis.
VW: Yes. And I’m sure it was Barnes Wallis but [pause] because there was everybody there doing the thing. All of the talk of the — everybody was —
HH: So, you also would have then witnessed those tests wouldn’t you?
VW: Yes. I did all sorts of things. I just kept my mouth shut. I mean they knew whatever they wanted me to do I’d do which I did and I didn’t ask questions.
HH: And you had a bit more to do with the squadron which was finally involved with the Dambusters raid because you knew Guy Gibson.
VW: Yes.
HH: So, tell us about that.
VW: Well, how did I know Guy Gibson? It just happened. And I drove them. I took them into Lincoln. And — I don’t know. I just, I was always around. I was there when I was needed because I just loved doing things that, you know. And I, and I loved that dog.
HH: So, you knew the dog as well.
VW: Ahum. Yeah. And somebody let him out and he was killed on the road and everybody cried. Poor old boy.
HH: Yeah.
VW: Silly me.
HH: Well it was a big thing wasn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
VW: I’ve got loads of things to tell you. I really have. And I can’t. Where am I now? I’m at East Kirkby now aren’t I?
HH: Yes. Yes.
VW: Sorry. Forgive me.
Other: Oh you silly sausage.
HH: Well these memories are very strong.
Other: They [pause] you still remember them going off, don’t you? In the evenings.
VW: Oh, I met —
Other: And other things. And you always used to say some of them — they knew that they weren’t coming back didn’t they?
VW: Oh yes. I used to drive them to the kites at night. You know. To go on. That really —
Other: To their sorties.
VW: I didn’t enjoy that.
Other: No.
VW: And they would give me letters and things to post and tell me about their wives and their children. And you’d wait. One night, somebody I liked very much and we had, we had a place where we could iron our trousers and I ironed mine every night. I liked to be smart and there were lace curtains in this room and the window was open and I was thinking about him and I thought, ‘Oh gosh I do hope he’s ok and he’ll come back,’ and all of a sudden, the curtains went [whoo]. Like that. And I knew he wouldn’t come back. And the sort of [pause] things were felt very deeply in those days. You didn’t sort of brush things off and I didn’t have anyone that I was really sort of, I wasn’t silly enough to fall in love with anyone that was flying because that was sheer and utter misery but I knew this person because I knew he was married and he was very fond of his wife and his children. You were involved in so much, how can I say — ?
HH: Heartache.
VW: You took on a lot of people’s worries. Especially when you were driving because they would talk to you and tell you all sorts of things that really meant an awful lot. They knew that you would never sort of, you know. They talked to you and it would never come back. But it was a very emotional time because you took on an awful lot of private stories and worries. Anyway, let me tell you about the fun things. Now, let me think.
Other: You used to have parties down — because mum lived with her mum and dad at Little Steeping rectory.
VW: Oh. Yes. I used to come. Well we had tennis courts you see and father put a notice in the officer’s mess and said that if any of them wanted to come down and play tennis. And some of the boys used to come down because we had a lovely pub and they used to come down to the pub and they used to pop in and mum would make them a cup of tea and it was, it was a very happy place and they could come from [pause] from —
Other: Spilsby.
VW: No. Down the river to come from [pause] oh crikey the next village to us. And come down the river to us at Little Steeping.
Other: Yeah. Great Steeping.
VW: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Is that rectory still there?
Other: Yeah.
HH: Is the house still there?
Other: Yes.
VW: Oh Yes. Yes. Oh we had some lovely times. And mummy used to play the violin in the garden and the cows and the sheep used to come and there was a big hedge and you’d see a row of cow’s heads and mummy was there sort of playing the violin. Honestly. And they never took a photograph and we should have done because it was hilarious. And the boys used to say, ‘Elizabeth,’ mum, ‘Come and play the violin. See if the cows will come up,’ and they did. Stupid, silly things.
Other: But mum used to bike didn’t you? From home to the —
VW: I cycled because mummy was very ill and I was stationed at East Kirkby and I cycled form East Kirkby to Little Steeping every morning and every night until one day the little man who collected the letters and things — he had a, oh what do you call it? A three-wheeler. Oh.
HH: Sort of tricycle.
Other: Motorbike.
VW: Yes. A motorbike.
HH: Oh motorbike.
VW: Yes and he’d stop and he’s say, ‘Come on Vera. We’ll get your bike on here somehow,’ he said, ‘I’ll take you. I can’t see you going up that hill again.’
Other: Motorbike and sidecar.
VW: That’s right.
Other: Yeah.
VW: Yes. Yeah. And so we tootled and he was ever so good and mum used to have something already hot and ready for him. Coming to do it for me. But I did it for a week. It nearly killed me ‘cause I had to come up the hill.
Other: And then you —
VW: And I took the short cut.
Other: Yeah. And then you were transferred to Spilsby weren’t you?
VW: Then I came to — I had a whale of a time at Spilsby because I lived at home.
Other: So —
HH: Fantastic.
Other: Have you said anything about the bomb dump going up in Spilsby?
VW: Yes. Yes.
HH: That was Spilsby. Yeah.
VW: Gosh. It was a bit of a shock though. It was a hell of a bang.
Other: They lost eleven ground crew didn’t they?
VW: Yes. They did.
Other: Yeah.
VW: No. There were only three killed. There was three killed.
Other: I thought they lost eleven.
VW: No. No. I don’t think so.
HH: Yes. It’s a terrible thing though isn’t it?
VW: Well it was something that was ready and waiting to happen ‘cause all they did was to turn the fuse the wrong way on and it just sort of —
HH: Yeah.
VW: One bloke went into little pieces.
HH: Exploded. Yeah.
VW: Not funny. But anyway, we got through all sorts of things at Steeping. At East Kirkby. All sorts of odd things happened. You know. But —
HH: So, you, can I just go back and ask. You were, it sounds like you spent quite a lot of your time in the WAAFs at East Kirkby and then Spilsby. Is that right?
VW: Yes. East Kirkby was first because I was quite a long time at Lincoln and I —
HH: Before that. Ok.
VW: And I was posted. I can’t remember. I’ve been trying to remember if I was posted to Dunholme and Fiskerton. The only thing that I remembered was that I was nearly drowned in the [laughs]
HH: Trent.
Other: Yeah. Going over Dunham Bridge.
VW: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: What? So, what was the incident you had to get under the truck. You were having, cooking sausages.
VW: Oh yes. Well this was, this was when I was, now let me think now because there was one or two times when I —
Other: Well it was down the bottom of the —
VW: It was at the bottom of the runway. There was a caravan at the bottom of the runway and I was tootling along. Oh, this was, yes, I had to go back again because Duncan made me go back from what I was doing and I went down there and then I went back and picked up some food for the sergeant on the runway. And he came out and it just happened he turned around and he was standing in the, in the doorway with a frying pan in his hand. He’d been cooking some sausages [laughs] and then, oh this was when the aircraft was bombing the runway.
Other: Yeah.
VW: That’s right. Oh, that’s a different time. That’s right. Yes. We both finished off underneath the caravan.
Other: He was still holding his frying pan with those sausages wasn’t he?
VW: Yeah.
Other: But yeah. Mum just pulled up and he was at the door and —
VW: Yeah.
Other: The aircraft came over and machine gun fire and mum and him were underneath the caravan.
VW: We were. Yes. We were. Those sorts of things went by and you didn’t worry. It was part of the way of living. You know. There were lots and lots of silly, silly things. What else was there?
Other: Well they used to ring you up and you used to end up going on long drives didn’t you? With the —
VW: Yes. I used to have to go down south. I used to have to go. Probably, oh I’d start out at midnight to take somebody down south. I can’t remember the places but a heck of a long way away it was. In the dark and you got to know the places so well that you didn’t really worry. I mean it didn’t bother me. Night driving.
HH: And how did you find your way Vera because a lot of places.
VW: Oh we did.
HH: The places of villages and things were all removed weren’t they?
HH: Yeah. But there were a lot of signs. They were very good. And you had — they did their best to give you a sort of, a help. If we had the marvellous things we have today to get us to places we would have been fine wouldn’t we? But we had to sort of just hope we were on the right road. We managed it. And the people we took were very good because they knew we were tired when we got to where we were going and they found — because there were also places for the WAAF’s and the army. For the women to go if they were, you know, what do they call them?
Other: When you were on to stay.
Yes. And —
Other: Billets.
VW: And we were always sort of given the help. They gave you what they could. They helped you to get to where you were going but you managed it. It’s surprising what you did manage actually but you had to come back alone which wasn’t very funny because there’d be all sorts of upheavals and things and planes coming over but you took everything as a matter of course. I mean if anything funny happened you just crossed your fingers and hoped for the best and said, ‘Please God get me home.’ And that was it. But you didn’t think about it because the boys were killing themselves, weren’t they? Doing the best they could. So we had to do the best we could, didn’t we?
HH: Indeed.
VW: And I’d go back and do it tomorrow. I would.
Other: But you used to drive the tractors with the bombs on, didn’t you? And go and —
VW: Oh. Yes. Yes. Well they used to get the aircraft from the, from the —
Other: Hangars.
VW: Out of the —where they keep them.
Other: Hangars.
VW: Yeah. Now, this [pause] I was, I was driving the tractor and I was pulling this aircraft. There was an awful lot of whatsit between us. And Violet was yelling at me from the top, saying, ‘Don’t go that way Tommy. Go the other way.’ ‘Not that way.’ ‘Go to the left not to the right.’ And there was a taut thing and if it had, I mean if it had gone it would have whipped my neck off. We did all sorts of amazing things. I mean we bombed up. Put, this we nearly finished up nearly in a dyke. I stopped and the aircraft kept coming but managed to stop in time but that was rather sort of hmmn. But yes, where was I? Now then.
Other: You were going to say about when you bombed up.
VW: Oh yes.
Other: The bombs.
VW: Yes. Cookies. You would take a whole load of cookies and incendiaries and things. I mean if you’d gone over a bump and one had fallen off it, well it would have been curtains wouldn’t it? But we used to take those around as if they were bits of nothing. It was amazing. Honestly. And when I look back and what we did do. But a lot of the girls didn’t like driving and I was pleased because I got all of the nice tricky jobs I did.
Other: You enjoyed driving.
VW: Yeah. I did. And the more difficult they were the better I liked them.
Other: Just a little ditty if I could.
VW: Yeah. And honestly I’d still love to go back. If I could take, get some of my life back — if I could get another fifty years back and there was a war on I’d go tomorrow.
Other: When I took mum to the Spilsby aircraft —
VW: Oh, it was marvellous.
Other: Commemoration of the new memorial a couple of years ago mum was asked to put a wreath on and I was sitting in the stands and I was sat next to an elderly gentleman and he said to me, he said, ‘I know that lady,’ he said, ‘That’s Tommy Tomlinson.’ And I looked at him and I said, ‘It is Tommy Tomlinson.’ ‘My God,’ he said, ‘I would know her anywhere. She hasn’t changed a bit.’ Bearing in mind it’s seventy years.
VW: Oh no.
Other: And it turned out that he was the little lad that used to live at the local shop a little way up from where mum lived.
HH: Gosh.
Other: And he told me he could still remember her cycling every morning to go to the camp in her uniform. And, yeah, Tommy Tomlinson. And they all remember her as Tommy.
VW: And then the lovely man in the wheelchair. We had a little —
Other: Yeah. We went to —
VW: That was lovely wasn’t it?
Other: We went to the three Lancs get together at East Kirkby.
VW: Yeah.
Other: And mum was invited as a VIP because of her veteran status.
VW: Yeah.
Other: And we were walking along and a lady had heard me saying that mum was in 207 Squadron and a gentleman in a wheelchair that she was pushing, he said, ‘Oh. Oh,’ he said, ‘My God,’ he said, ‘It’s Tommy. It’s Tommy.’
VW: I had a big hug.
Other: They hugged in wheelchairs a
VW: Yeah.
Other: And they reminisced and he, he’s ninety six and he hasn’t seen her since she was stationed here.
HH: Amazing.
Other: And he still recognised her. And I think that’s pretty marvellous.
HH: It is indeed.
VW: Oh I’d love.
Other: What other things can you remember? What —
VW: Oh, I can remember so many things. I lay in bed at night and go back.
Other: You met, you met dad on Spilsby didn’t you?
VW: Yes. Yeah.
HH: Tell us about that.
Other: Tell us how you met dad.
VW: I wasn’t particularly enamoured with him at first because he was a bit sort of — you know — I didn’t.
Other: The first time you saw him he came to get some petrol one night, didn’t he?
VW: Oh, this was — no. This was at another aerodrome. Ages ago. Where was I? I must have been at Dunholme and he was in his private car and he wanted some petrol and it was midnight and I remember, I remember doing my hair that day differently and I was ever so pleased with myself and it was, it was midnight almost. I was on night duty but I had to look smart, you know, and he came in to the, he came in to the office and he said could he have some petrol. So I had to ask the sergeant if it was ok if he had some petrol. And he said, ‘Take him Tommy and see that he does,’ you know. Gets what he wants.
Other: Yeah.
VW: And, oh, we just said, ‘Hello,’ and ‘How are you?’ and how’s your father and we said goodbye, good night and I didn’t see him any more for ages. And then I saw him again one day and he said, ‘I know you don’t I?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Do you? ‘Cause I wasn’t particularly bothered about men. I was enjoying myself doing things, you know. And I didn’t like to get interest in any of the flying types because it was asking for trouble that was. But I had some nice boyfriends.
Other: So, what, what happened then? When he, when he met you again?
VW: Oh, when he met me again, yes. I think we sat in the big, sat in the garry with me and we talked. But the time I really met him properly was at the Revesby Show. And I’d been up to London and I’d been to this place and ordered a load of super stuff. Shooting stuff and from one of these big shops.
Other: Shows.
VW: For the show. And poor daddy had to deal with it. Anyway, and some friends came up and they were with Bill. And he said, ‘Hello Vera.’ I said, ‘Hello dear.’ He said, ‘Would you like to walk around the reservoir.’ And I said, ‘Not particularly but I will if you want to.’ So we walked around the reservoir and talked.
Other: ‘Cause was that the time that he said that he was going to marry you?
VW: Probably. One or two of them said that and I wasn’t interested thank you.
Other: So, what —
VW: And then, then, oh he came to Steeping. We got together and we found we liked one another and, you know.
Other: It was just funny that you happened to be stationed at the same aerodrome.
VW: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So were you married during the war? Or —
VW: No.
HH: Or after the war.
VW: After the war. No. That’s asking for trouble. No. No, I filled in my time doing really interesting things. I got nearly killed two or three times but I mean that was ok. They didn’t manage it quite. But —
HH: And so, Vera tell us how you got to fly over Germany.
VW: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. One day I walked into the MT office and the officer said, ‘Tommy I’ve got some news for you.’ So I said, ‘What’s that?’ And he said, ‘Would you like to fly over Germany?’ I said, ‘Yes please. When?’ So, he said, ‘Well the CO has had notice to say that any of the drivers who have been really super,’ because we worked really hard, and would they like a trip over Germany? It was over [pause] not right in to Germany. What was name of the place? Anyway, and I said, ‘Yes please. I’d love to.’ So they rang up and said would I go down two or three days later and get my [pause] –
Other: Flying gear.
HH: Flying gear.
VW: Yeah.
HH: Parachute.
VW: Parachute. Yeah.
Other: Parachute.
VW: So, I sat outside the thingy waiting and they brought it for me and I went off the same day and nobody else wanted to go. ‘No. No. No. We don’t want to go flying thank you very much. No.’ Lily livered lot. Oh no. Nobody else wanted to go and I thought what a marvellous thing to do. But I’d done lots of trips. I flew quite a lot because I used to take them in the garry and they’d say, ‘Come on Tommy. We’re only going across to do a survey for about two hours just to test everything for the night.’ And a lot of the girls used to go. Nobody knew of course. We used to hide. Hide in the garry. Wherever we could. And one day we went and we were doing a lovely, a super, it was a really lovely ride and the weather was marvellous and I was in the front turret and it was really nice. And suddenly the skipper said, ‘Bloody hell,’ he said the — whatsits won’t come down.
Other: Flaps.
VW: ‘The flaps won’t come down,’ and we couldn’t —
Other: Land.
HH: Land. Yeah.
VW: So we were circling away and everything. And I thought oh bully for us. How do I get get down? I haven’t got a parachute. Yeah. I didn’t bother. I mean I wasn’t really that bothered. It got a bit, sort of — anyway, eventually they did and there’s a photograph somewhere of me coming down out of the aircraft and sitting on the grass like that. I was so pleased to be on terra firma that I didn’t realise that we got down alright. And that’s the only time. But I used to, I did quite a lot of flying that way but we always managed to come down alright. And what else? What else? There’s something else on the back of my mind.
HH: You mentioned earlier that you had met Ian Smith.
VW: Yes. Mr Smith.
HH: Was that through driving as well? Was that through your work as driving.
VW: Yes. I was driving it. Yeah. Yes. He was in my garry. Yes. I picked him up. I can remember where I picked him up with somebody else. Yes. Oh yes. That is definite. Because I didn’t know who he was until later on. He was ever so nice. But you got all sorts of jobs that you don’t remember because they happened quickly and you had to sort of get cracking and do they wanted to do and it didn’t really register until later. But oh, I’d go back tomorrow. I would. Honestly. I really would. I won’t be able to now will I?
Other: So what —
HH: Well you can do it in your —
VW: In the next life I can.
HH: You can do it in your thoughts.
VW: Oh, I do. All sorts of things.
Other: What [pause] what other special things happened at — when they had special sorties that they had to d? There was a lot of the Lancs, a lot of the squadrons went out on the big shouts didn’t they?
VW: Oh yes. You’d get, you’d get quite a lot of them but they didn’t do it too often because you lost too many kites doing it that way. If you, if you sort of sent out, they used to have big raids but they found that it wasn’t really very clever because the —
Other: Losses were too high.
VW: The Germans would send out their — yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They had some really ropey dos. The really did.
Other: Did you often get the Germans come here to bomb?
VW: Oh yes. Oh, they used to have a lovely time. They never did any good though.
Other: And at Spilsby and East Kirkby.
VW: Yeah. I remember East Kirkby because I had a great friend. He was absolutely super. Now, he came from South Africa and he’d lived there for a long time. He was white. He wasn’t a South African and he had a terrific sense of humour and I remember he was on duty that night when they came over and he said, ‘I’ll pay them back.’ I forget what he did but he bombed somewhere. They bombed somewhere and gave it a hell of a do, you know, with that feeling behind it. Oh, he came to Steeping to see me. I think he brought his son and I remember seeing him walking up the drive. Now that’s — I haven’t thought about that for ages. And I can’t even remember his name but he was ever so jolly and ever such a nice person but he came to England to see some relatives or something and he came to see us.
Other: How lovely.
VW: Yeah. Bill was ever so pleased to see him. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: So, after the war when you returned to civilian life did you continue living in Steeping then?
VW: What did I — I didn’t really do a lot. I was at home.
HH: But was it in Steeping?
Other: Yeah. You still lived with your mum and dad at Steeping. At the rectory. Didn’t you?
VW: Oh yes.
Other: After you’d left the air force.
VW: Oh mum and I did all sorts of things. I played tennis a lot.
Other: But you also went to London to do some modelling didn’t you?
VW: Oh yes. Yes, I did.
Other: With your sister. After the war.
VW: Yes. I did. I did. Yes.
Other: And then you trained as a hairdresser didn’t you?
VW: Yes. Oh. Yes. I did. I did. And mummy had three hairdressing salons and I just had a natural sort of something for it and I used to go down occasionally and do a bit here and there and then I bought a business. I had a big double fronted shop. And —
Other: It’s on Roman Bank in Skegness.
VW: And a successful business it was too.
HH: In Skegness.
Other: Yeah. Yeah. Called du Barry wasn’t it?
VW: Du Barry. Yeah. Double fronted. And I had a peacock in the window. And a lady came in one day in the summer and she said, ‘That’s my Henry.’
Other: This woman remembered her peacock.
VW: And she remembered her peacock. There was something about him that she remembered. So I said, ‘Well I’m taking care of it.’ I think it finished up at the 30 Club. They bought it when I sold the business. But I did, I did very very well. I don’t know if it’s —
Other: But you always remember your war years don’t you? You, always, with great, great happiness and great sadness. Mixed feelings really.
VW: Yeah. I’m really, really — I was thrilled to bits when I knew you were coming.
HH: Well it’s such a, it’s just so lovely to be able to sit here and hear all these memories.
VW: Anything I can do now, if there is anything I can do.
HH: Well I’ve —
VW: Wherever you want me I’ll go.
HH: Well Vera what I would suggest to you is that we can, we can pause the interview now because one of the things that tends to happen actually is that when people start remembering they don’t, they can’t stop.
Other: No.
HH: So —
VW: They can’t stop what?
Other: Remembering.
HH: Remembering.
VW: Oh no. No.
HH: And so, I think that one of the things that might happen is that you will start remembering a lot more than you ever thought you could. Having had this conversation.
VW: Yes. I probably will. Only I’ve been worried.
HH: And we can come back and do another one.
VW: I’ve been really worried because I’ve known — I don’t know —
HH: Well what —
VW: I remember bits and I remember ever so much more than I’ve told you today because it just hasn’t come back.
HH: It will though and so we can come back and talk some more.
VW: Yes.
HH: So, shall I say thank you very much for the moment.
VW: Yeah.
HH: And we’ll switch the tape off.
VW: Yeah.
HH: But we’ll carry on where we’ve left off.
VW: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Vera Willis
Description
An account of the resource
Vera Willis nee Tomlinson volunteered for the Women's Auxiliary Air Force because she wanted to be a driver. Her driving career in the RAF involved driving long distances as well as driving aircrew to dispersal. Some crew gave her letters for safekeeping or to post.
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-28
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:44:14 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWillisV150828
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
207 Squadron
animal
bomb dump
bombing up
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Spilsby
service vehicle
tractor
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/548/8809/PLeedhamA1601.1.jpg
a1fcd561dc38bb5f13c7c11bb63b26d3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/548/8809/ALeedhamA160514.2.mp3
fcfd2bdafa3b86d6a03bfa38ab6d6a42
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Leedham, Alma
Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham
A L M Leedham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Leedham, A
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Alma Lucy Muriel Leedham (1922 - 2020, 455833 Royal Air Force), memoirs of herself and her husband Warrant Officer Terence Leedham an armourer who also served on a number of bomber command stations. She served as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force stationed at RAF Scampton and East Kirkby.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Alma Leedham and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-14
2017-05-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HH: Ok, it’s Saturday the fourteenth of May 2016 and I am Heather Hughes and I am conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre with Alma Leedham and also present at the interview are Alma’s son, Richard and daughter in law, Jane. Thank you, Alma, very much for agreeing to talk to us today. We are in Richard and Jane’s home in Holbury, Southampton. Alma, I wonder if we could start off this interview with you talking a little bit about your very early life and where you were born and grew up and went to school.
AL: I [unclear], well, I was born in Fulham, which is just outside London, actually South Wessex, and of course I stayed there, I was more or less still there when the war started and when I joined up all I wanted to do was drive. I loved driving and I still do. But I was sent up to Blackpool and we had civilian teachers which turned out to be a bit of a mistake because three or four of them got picked up on a smash-and-grab raid one night [laughs], well, we didn’t know anything about it, us girls that were lonely we were being put up in local houses up there and that was the first time I saw a ballet, there was a ballet on at the theatre up there and a couple of lads took me to see it, so that was the first time, but I’m digressing now, but
HH: Not at all.
AL: You know, being there and thinking about it now, it’s way back in my past really see, so if I jump about you’ll have to excuse me.
HH: Not a problem.
AL: So, the thing is, I did have a boyfriend who was in the RAF and when he disappeared I joined up so I’m trying to remember how old I was then, I was think of I was probably eighteen, possibly nineteen but I think it was more like eighteen, and they send me up to Blackpool and that’s where the drivers were, learning to drive. I had a father who was mad about motor and always had been, he’s always been in the business so he told me how to double declutch, which some people these days have never heard of, but in those days we did, anyway, now where have I got to? This is it, my memory’s sort of, it collapses from time to time and I go from one bit to another. The thing is when the war was starting I was already working for Hawker aircraft on the Hurricane. So, I was already slightly involved with the war but when, I’m just thinking, when I decided to join up, they sent me up to Blackpool to learn to drive properly and that was absolutely beautiful because it was the springtime and we were doing most of our training in the upper areas of North Wales and it was really wonderful up there, Rhododendrons all the way, you know, because it was sort of, really, this time of the year, May, and then of course we had a bit of collapse because the trainers, the drivers that we had, who were civilians, several of them got picked up on a smash-and-grab raid, so the whole thing started to collapse and then, there’s a famous comedian who was a sergeant and he used to take us in the basement.
US: Max Wall.
AL: Max Wall, that was him and he was our sergeant at the time and he wasn’t always funny, I’ll tell you that, but you see, the thing is there were breaks and us girls when we had a break, we used to pop into Woolworth and buy music and sit at the back we’d all [unclear], you know, going like this [unclear], not listening to him at all, but, anyway, that’s beside the point and so eventually of course we all got posted off to different places because there was a break when they decided that because of the disruptive learner, teacher drivers that we had, we would have to start again so we all gone, there were more than fifty of us and we went south somewhere and I can’t quite remember but it was sort of somewhere, sort of [unclear] with northern Wales that we went and they put us through psychology test, so we were sort of listening for noises and we had pieces of paper in front of us with a pencil on one hand and a pen in the other one and so, you had to do all the movements that you were doing if you were driving, so for instance if you were, if the instructor at the front sitting on the [unclear] left hand turn, because he was facing you, it was a right-hand turn for you, so [laughs], so we had pieces, it must have taken about three or four days when we were going through this business of the paperwork and to test what you, how good your sight was and how good your hearing was cause you had to listen for a horn and well, things like that and if he suddenly put his hand out, you put a right hand turn because he was doing a left hand turn, but it was alright for us. It was quite interesting but we were only there four days and then we got sent off again and so I went to, where did I go to? I went to Blackpool. We were, yeah, that was, I think I got a bit mixed up somewhere there but anyway when we finished our training I was sent with three, four other ladies, we were all new to the RAF and we went up to somewhere on the east coast of Scotland where we were collecting new lorries, there were new lorries who were just going into use so when we got up there, the first thing we had to do was to clean the lorries cause you couldn’t see through the windows or anything so we had to clean them up and when all these lorries were ready, they were about, I think they were about six, seven or maybe even eight and we had the business of keeping the right distance outside town from each other and the right distance, when you, you could close up when you, and I can’t remember what the distances were, so you could close up when you were in town but all this time we were normally driving just lorries, small lorries, what you call a thirty-hundred-weight, and then of course the news eventually came through that the postings were coming, when everything went wrong, they were going to send us down to London but before we could go, they stopped us and said, we are sending you to somewhere else and I can’t remember where that is now, but when we finished our training there and they decided we were ok, that’s when I got sent to Scampton but there were only two of us went to Scampton and I can’t even remember the other girls name and of course it was when I got there 83 Squadron were in the process of moving south cause they’d been at Scampton and they were with 39 Squadron. 39 Squadron were flying Manchesters which only had the two engines, they weren’t as good as the Lancasters, so they went out of action fairly soon and I never really had anything to do with those but when we were posted to Scampton there were the empty, that’s the motor place where the, all the girls and the men who were drivers went down there and you would only do half a day because you’d be, you’d have two, at least two other drivers, learners, same as yourself, and we’d have one teacher each, they were civilians and we had one teacher each and you, he decided when you got out and come, somebody got out the backseat and came in and did the driving, so he decided all that sort of stuff and because at that time we were living in what you would call holiday houses, you know, the people went to stay on a holiday at Blackpool and there’s all these land ladies with all their open doors and of course the RAF and the army, they just overtook all the places over and I remember the first time we went, we were right up in the loft area so when I woke up in the morning, I’m trying to stand, trying to sit up, and I hit my head on the [unclear] ceiling but I mean there were seven of us in that attic and so we did get a big post. And then there was the night when we got, I can’t remember her name, one of the other girls, at night we had to be in by ten, but there was a fish and chip shop down the road and we could get lemonade there as well, so we used to get the stuff and take it back but the lady who was in charge of the house, it was her house, she had very, very strict rules about being back by ten and we were only about one minute past ten and she wouldn’t let us in, so the girls who were in the top floor so [unclear] stream down we passed fish and chips and bottles of lemonade up to them but we couldn’t get in ourselves and there was a corporal who was supposed to be in charge of us and she was very weak, she, when they, the owner of the house sort of told her, you can do this and you can do that and can do the other but not this, you know, and so she laid the law down and of course we got to this point where we couldn’t get in one night cause we arrived back one minute after eleven so we had to go three streets away to one of the houses where we had a WAAF office there with officers and sergeants and all that sort of thing, tell them what had happened to us and so they said, well, we will get that sorted out so, they sent for a lorry, it was an RAF lorry to come and pick us up and take us back [unclear] that they let us in [laughs] and that’s what they did, they did [unclear] but as I say, that was just the early days and then once we got posted, we all went different ways so, some of the girls that I knew then I never ever met again. So, you just sort of accepted what came, there was nothing else you could do anyway but I think when you are young, that doesn’t matter, does it? And you know, we more or less behaved ourselves and as I say, that was the first time I saw a ballet, there was a ballet in Blackpool on at the theatre and two of the lads decided to take me and I don’t remember much about it, it was Swan Lake, that’s all I know but from then on you know, you saw, you just waited to see what was gonna happen and when I got sent to Scampton the first thing I had to do was not driving a car anymore, you’re driving a tractor, so that’s when I started taking the bombs out to the Lancasters, so.
HH: And you used a tractor for that?
AL: Yeah. So, I’d have, the maximum number of trailers on the back was six, you weren’t allowed to have more, with six could do you two bombloads, see so when you went up to the bomb dump my mate she worked in, Vivian, she worked in the bomb dump, she knew where we were going, we weren’t told, we were just told which aircraft to take the loads to and you could pick up two loads on six trolleys, so you had a four thousand pound bomb on the trailer behind you and the other two trailers would have incendiary bombs on them, crossways on the trolleys. And so you took out six and you delivered them to the two aircraft that they told you to do and then you went back again, collected another lot and that sort of thing. But I suppose really if you jumped far ahead there was a night when we, you know, we had a fog, and we blew up one of our Lancasters, it was fully bombed from the night before [laughs].
HH: What happened?
AL: Well nobody was hurt or anything, in fact it was rather funny because when this aircraft, you see the aircraft had been lined up on the sort of semicircle ready to take off the night before and of course the rule was that if the Germans got [unclear] that we were coming, it would be cancelled. At this particular night it was cancelled and when we went out the next morning, fog everywhere, you couldn’t see a hand in front of your face. And so there were people doing [unclear] and what we didn’t know at the time, we found out about later was that one of the lads and armourer, he got into the aircraft because when the aircraft was taking off and it was fully loaded, it also had a flash, now the flash came from a chute near the back end of the aircraft and when, I don’t know about the timing and all that sort of thing but that flash, when it went, gave them the light to take a photograph of what they had hit, so it was all very complicated really, but anyway that’s who I was. Oh dear, I’m running out of breath I think. It’s, you know I’m trying to go back to those days cause it’s a long time ago.
HH: It is a long time ago.
AL: And now I’m trying to remember.
HH: So, how, were you just at Scampton or did you serve at any other base? You were just at Scampton?
AL: I was just at Scampton because
HH: So you got to know it very well.
AL: I did. That was, we used to have a dance, it was generally on a Sunday night, this was the non-officers, they had their own particular areas, the same as they had their own officer’s mess, we wouldn’t expect to go up to any of those places, and so we sort of all bumped in together and it seemed to work out quite well. It was.
HH: What were your living quarters like in Scampton?
AL: Oh wait a minute, what was that like? I’m just trying to think where I slept in, oh, yes, it was nearly two miles down the road off Scampton, coming out of Lincoln it would be on the right, I’ve forgotten the name of the village but a lot of us slept down there in sort of Nissen huts and that was a bit awkward because if you wanted to go to the loo you’ll had to, put your shoes on of course, you had to get out of the Nissen hut that you were in, you had to walk across a ditch which had a white plank on it, so you walked across the ditch [unclear] on and though that was sort of loosely put up, you know, for the first to use and that sort of thing, so no problems there expect the girl in the bed next to me had [unclear], I mean, she was a fat girl and she came from Bradford, and I remember she used to call it Bratford, I said it’s not Bratford it’s Bradford, there’s a d in there, anyway she had a [unclear] and they cartered her off but I never knew what happened there but you see, she was a tubby girl and most of us and so most of us didn’t even realise she was expecting, things like that do happen, you know.
HH: And what was the food like?
AL: Mh?
HH: What was the food like?
AL: As far as I remember, it was acceptable. We had a sort of, there was a general, in the main building there was a cooking, really, not cooking, ah, what’s the word?
HH: Canteen.
AL: Yes, they turned it into a canteen up there, so that we could use it and of course in the evening it was used as a theatre, so we had a big screen put up in one corner and my friend Vivian, the one who did the bomb dump, I remember one night, she was sitting there, she was sat on the window sill and there was this cowboy thing on, there was this white horse and somebody was shouting something about the horse and Vivian stood there and she said, come on [unclear]! [unclear] this white horse. And so everybody started laughing so, they said, do you want us to start again? We said, no, carry on from where you are [laughs].
HH: And how much, how much did you have to do with the ground crew and the air crew?
AL: The only relationship, oh, we can’t call it a relationship, but the only people I really knew were, I didn’t know any of the air crew but we all thought that was a good idea because they didn’t always come back but the ground crew, we got to know those that especially the armourers that worked on the stuff because we used to take the bombs out on the trolleys and but you should hear their language if you hadn’t got the trolleys straight when you had to load them out, right under the bomb bay, see, so you took the tractor right the way round and you came in from the side towards the front end cause you couldn’t get out the back way anyway. And so that was my [unclear].
HH: And you said that you’d met your husband as a result of being in Bomber Command.
AL: Oh yes, now, I did know him because he was a flight sergeant and he had sixty men working for him and he was in the armoury department, you see, because I was on the bombs and that sort of thing so I didn’t get to know him and it was so sad one morning, we were, the girls were in the hangar, some waiting to go out on different jobs and he came in and there were tears, I said, what’s the matter? Cause I didn’t even know that he was, that his name was Terry then, I called him the same as everybody else cause he, he was this big lad, he was six foot two, and I sad, what on earth’s the matter? He said, I have just been round to one of the planes that was out last night, he said, the rear gunner was shot up, he said, and I went round the back and there’s just bits of him. He said, I couldn’t bear to look at it and there were tears and he was a flight sergeant but there you are [unclear] sort of thing but over the years, you know, we sort of got to know each other, especially if I was on night duty and he was on night duty too. So, out on the airfield there were three huts, hut number one, two and three, and you could always go to one of these huts because they had these stoves and the stoves there were on the top and I used to go down the cook house and get some bread and we made toast up there, you see, so we were never short of something [unclear] and they used to say when I got, when I used to get down the cook house, you didn’t come for more bread? I said, yes [laughs]. And I don’t remember whether we ever managed to get any marge to go with it, certainly wasn’t any butter. [unclear] got some marge sometimes. But, you know, it’s, I’ve gone off my track again, haven’t I?
HH: You were talking about getting to know your husband.
AL: Oh yes, he, well, mainly I suppose it was because he was working on the, he was, you see, there were four hangars but it was hangar number three and hangar number four were where the armourers worked, he was a flight sergeant at the time and so the only time he ever had to bring his lads in, he would sit in the front with me, in the front, that’s the lorry I was driving and [laughs], one night he came back with the lorry and while I had been out on the airfield, they’d taken one of the Lancasters and they towed it by the tail, put it in the hangar and the doors, the hangar gates or doors, which were, they were normally open when I left, when I came back they were like this and I got, I got probably about twelve armourers in the back of the lorry with all their gear, you know, the winding and bits, so I got them and when I had got round to the hangar and the hangar which had been wide open there was a [unclear] one so I didn’t realise that what they’d done was to tow a Lancaster in there by the tail, so when I drove in [unclear] my lads that were in the back of the lorry got the propeller piece that was in the downward bit, it went over the roof and where I was driving but the covered bit where the lads were [laughs], it went back and it bent all the way [unclear] shouting at me [unclear] [laughs]. But things like that happened.
HH: I’m sure. Well, things were not as well-lit in those days apart from everything else, weren’t they?
AL: Most of the time you couldn’t see where you were going.
HH: Exactly.
US: You were going to tell the story of flash?
AL: Flash? Oh yeah.
US: Who [unclear]
AL: When we the, when we blew him up?
US: Yeah. When you blew the Lancaster up.
AL: Oh, well, this, on this particular night there was going to be a raid on Germany and the aircraft, we got them all loaded up and everything and whether the news, cause sometimes the news of what we were doing would get through to the Germans and if they found out, I mean, we never knew any details or anything but if that happened, the whole thing was off and everything like that, so on this one particular night, everything was ready but there was a very thick fog the next morning and when we got to work, there was, it was a bit difficult, we had to go out onto the aircraft, we had armourers and I mean, I didn’t even know about it at the time but in the aircraff where the bombs are, they are in sort of the middle of the aircraft but behind that towards the tail, inside there’s a chute and the chute had, I suppose you could call it a bomb, it’s like a small one
US: It’s a flash [unclear]
AL: But it was the flash really and it went, it went into a chute so that what happened, when the aircraft were in the air and they got the place that they were gonna bomb land, this flash, I mean I don’t know any of the details, but the flash was what gave them the light to take a photograph of what they’d hit.
HH: That’s it.
AL: So, as I say, I don’t know any of the details there.
HH: What happened to it in the fog?
AL: Eh?
HH: What happened to it in the fog?
AL: Well, this was the problem, the whole thing was cancelled the night before, when we got to work the next morning, Cookie, who was the warrant officer in charge of the armourers and the, what we called the downstairs people [laughs], in charge of me as well, he had got very drunk the night before, which wasn’t unusual [laughs] and he sent, which he should never have done, he sent some blokes out to defuse the flashes, see, so, there was a case, they, so they had to get into the aircraft and the flash was, long thing about that, and it was about that wide and it went, and that was what took a photograph of what they hit and what he did, Cookie sent one of the blokes out to defuse one of these things or more than one but he ignored the fact that no one below the rank of corporal was allowed to do that and this bloke, he was just a leading aircraftsman, he was no rank at all and he put the switch the wrong way and he fired it so we had, he shouted as soon as he’d done it, now we had at that time because it was the next morning there was fog everywhere and there were the lads who had all the instruments and stuff and they were, had trolleys and when I was driving the lorry, I was seeing somebody running across the ground towards the hangar, two blokes and they hadn’t got the sense to leave the trolley and go [laughs], they were still pushing the trolley along [laughs], running across the grass towards the hangar with this trolley, I thought that was really funny [laughs]. But I’ve lost myself again.
US: The flash went off at the Lancaster, set it on fire.
AL: Oh yes, this was when
HH: Set the aircraft on fire.
AL: The switch, this switch that was supposed to switch the flash off, he turned it the wrong way apparently. But he knew what he’d done as soon as it happened because the flash dropped out of the bottom of the aircraft, it was at the tail end, and you shouted, jump everybody, the flash is gone! You see, we had the instrument people working up in the, where the pilot and the navigator, where those people would be, and the mid upper gunner, he would be up there and there was another one, there was the front gunner, he would be up there and these men were up there, you see, and the aircraft was on fire down the bottom with this thing, see, so, they jumped out where they were and people got away from the aircraft and of course in no time at all, not only was this Lancaster on fire but because overall wing to wing, the Lancs on either side were on fire.
HH: And were they are still fully bombed up?
AL: Oh yeah. And but you see, the thing was, because we couldn’t see properly because the fog was so thick and the airfield at Scampton is like this so that if you are on the far side, you can’t even see the hangars. So, it was more than a little difficult but when people realised what was happening, they sent a message out to the pilots to come and move their aircraft, so we did get most of them moved but the middle five, the three of them didn’t belong to us, they belonged to 120 Squadron [laughs], which is a bit of a laugh to start with if it did belong to us and you know, so it was sort of case of blowing up and all this sort of thing and of course in those days Perspex in the [unclear] windows was absolutely marvellous stuff and the lads used to make all sorts of things [unclear], cigarette lighters and stuff like that, and cigarette cases, they used to use this stuff like as I saw any, you know, there was a smash, they pick up the bits and take them home and use them. So, I mean, not everything went to waste, but they were exciting days.
HH: So there a lot of aircraft, lot of aircraft got lost in that incident.
AL: Oh yes,
US: Three, wasn’t it?
AL: Mh?
US: You lost three.
AL: Yeah, we did, we lost three, because, you see, the thing is when the first thing went down the chute and the bloke said, bombs away, clear it everybody, everybody was jumping and running but we were in thick fog and so because the aircraft from wingtip to wingtip, once the centre one which didn’t belong to us, was on fire, the ones on either side were in no time at all were on fire as well and what we had to do, we had to send for the pilots, to come and take the aircraft on the edges away, so we were left with, I wonder if three or five, I think it was five aircraft there, they wouldn’t, they couldn’t get on the, sort of the end of the [unclear] because they were too near the ones that were burning, so I had taken the four thousand pound bombs out the night before and what happened, we had the three centre ones blew up but the ones that were burning on the outside, we’d got the fire hoses putting them out and Vivian, she was out there with me on her tractor and we were waiting for the bombs to cool down so we could take them back to the bomb dump afterwards.
HH: Quite a dangerous job.
AL: We didn’t think so at the time [laughs].
HH: What was it like, Alma, on operation’s nights, when there was an operation?
AL: Well, was no different to any other night, really.
HH: Did you tend to be more tense, to wait for planes to come back?
AL: No. No, the thing is, we had to get used to the way things were, that was it, uhm, I mean, most of the girls like me, we had an unwritten law, you don’t get involved with the pilots or the navigators, people like that, cause they may not come back and a lot of them didn’t. And you see, as I say, there was this one night when Terry or morning when Terry turned up and there was only bits of this bloke because the Germans had got, you know, a really good bomb and, but you see, the aircraft itself was so near landing that it managed to land but of course the back end of it was in bits and so was this bloke. So we never got involved with the aircrew, safest not to, the same as when, you see, you had different jobs, sometimes I’ll be driving the tractor and taking the bombs out, sometimes I’ll be driving a lorry and taking the men out or bring them back. I just did what I was told.
HH: And you said that you also did the post run between Lincoln and Waddington.
AL: Oh that was, yes, I did, there was, I’ve got some idea that Scampton was a sort of, not exactly a headquarters but it was a bit sort of more up than some of the others so a lot of the secret mail that used to come in it would, I don’t know how it came, whether it was a bloke on a motorbike or something but this mail that came in could not go through the normal post and it had to be taken, see, so, there were occasions when it was my job to take the stuff over to Waddington and sort of drive through Lincoln to do it and then all the way back with fish and chips and they were all waiting in the empty room when we got back [laughs], all waiting for their fish and chips [laughs].
HH: What was, what rank did you obtain, Alma, what was your rank?
AL: [unclear], leading aircraftswoman, that was all. I never even got to corporal.
HH: And your, can you remember your service number?
AL: 455833 [laughs].
HH: Everyone can do that, it’s quite extraordinary. Yeah, it’s wonderful. And how much, what did you do when you had leave duty?
AL: Uhm, leave, I’m just trying to think, I don’t really remember doing anything.
US: Did you go and visit your mum?
AL: Eh?
HH: Did you go home
US: Did you go [unclear] and visit your mum?
AL: Oh I did go home, there was an uncle, actually he was an uncle and aunt of my mum, they lived in Lincoln and I used to go down and have a meal with them sometimes and because of where he was he got some placards which advertised the local theatre in Lincoln, sometimes he would say to me, would you like a couple of tickets? And I’d take on of the girls with me, we’d go down and see a show down there.
HH: It’s lovely.
AL: So that happened several times and do you know, I can’t even remember his name, nor his wife’s name or what they looked like. It’s a long time ago.
HH: Long time ago.
AL: I can’t. No, I don’t.
US: Your great uncle.
AL: Eh?
Us: That would have been your great uncle.
AL: Yes, yeah. But, they were my mum’s uncle and aunt and because when she heard where I was, she sent me out their address and so I went round to see them so when I was going out in the evening going into Lincoln to get fish and chips, oh, actually, I wasn’t going for the fish and chips, I was going to Waddington to deliver their mail and there was a fish and chips on the way back, but you see, all the girls in the empty, they all used to give me a list of what they wanted, now I used to come back with loads of fish and chips [laughs].
HH: Now, you stayed in Scampton till the end of the war, did you?
US: No.
AL: No, no, I didn’t. Cause I got married and had my first baby, in 1944.
HH: Ok, so you got married in, so you, when, after you were married you left Scampton, is that right?
AL: Uhm,
US: No, no, hang on, [unclear] If you want to get things in chronological order
AL: What?
US: If you want to get things in chronological order, you were sort of telling us that, although you’d worked with dad, he was very shy and you didn’t really sort of make that much contact with him although you’d been out, you know the WAAFs and the lads used to go to Lincoln together
AL: Yeah, we did.
US: But you’d always been a bit shy and you never really approached him and then one night there was that incident with the, [unclear] where the undercarriage collapsed and you had to go out, the night with the torch, that story.
AL: I don’t remember an awful lot about it. He was, he and another bloke, were digging underneath
US: The Lancaster, the undercarriage collapsed from take off
AL: The Lancaster, collapsed, the wheels had collapsed and there was, there were loaded bombs in there and so he and a couple of lads, I remember I was driving a lorry that night because somebody was shouting for a torch and there was an officer sitting with me and I said, there’s a torch there and I drove to and he, do you know, this officer got out of the lorry, round the front of it and disappeared and these blokes were down there so I got out of the lorry, picked up the torch and went over to the lads that were working there trying to dig the, you know, the bottom of the aircraft where the bombs were and they did do it, they defused the four thousand pound, but you see, the others
US: They were on time [unclear] the [unclear] had gone off even though
AL: See so, he did that but you see the incendiaries that were all around, I mean, the, [unclear], eleven, eleven boxes of incendiaries right round the main bomb, and of course they weren’t timed or anything, it was just a big bang on the earth that opened them up and that was it. Long time ago.
HH: Indeed.
US: That was the first you really had any real sort of contact with that, wasn’t it? And after that, you got talking or something.
AL: Yeah. And then I discovered he was jealous. And when we went to, we had a dance in the corporal’s mess and one of the blokes that I knew on a flight came across and asked me for a dance, so I went to dance with him, when I came back there was no sign of Terry. And I thought, that’s funny. And I said to one of the blokes, where did Terry go? Don’t know, he said. So I said, oh, never mind. And he turned up about twenty minutes later and I said to him, where have you been? He said, I couldn’t bear to see you with him, he said, I’ve been for a walk. That was it. He was very jealous. So, that was it. But he was lovely.
HH: Good.
AL: yeah.
HH: And you got married in ’43?
AL: Yeah. Twelfth of September.
HH: And where were you after that?
AL: Do you know, you’ve asked me, I don’t really know. I mean, as soon as I started to expect Leslie I had to leave anyway. But
HH: And where did you live when you left the WAAFs?
AL: I must have gone back to Kingston, to mum’s.
US: You did eventually, but after, you talked about living in Nissen huts of the base, at one stage you moved into married quarters at Scampton, didn’t you?
AL: Oh yes,
US: Was it number 18?
AL: Number 18, yes,
HH: So you stayed in married quarters at Scampton for a while
AL: [unclear]
US: And you were back in the same house that you
AL: Yeah, they gave me same house after the war.
HH: Gosh!
US: Oh yeah, that was after the war, that was the same house where you’ve been billeted with all your mates. Yeah, so Leslie was born
AL: Yeah, Leslie was born in a hospital in Birmingham,
US: Oh, ok.
AL: And it was dreadful. They were awful people.
US: So after you were married then, before Leslie was born you then moved to East Kirkby, didn’t you?
AL: The name is familiar, I can’t put a, I can’t remember what it looked like. East Kirkby, the name is very familiar. Was it round the back of the aerodrome?
US: No. No, it’s South Lincolnshire.
AL: South
HH: It’s near Spilsby.
AL: Yeah, I know.
US: Woodhall Spa.
HH: And Woodhall Spa.
AL: I just can’t remember that bit
US: After Scampton, I can’t remember whether you were married at Scampton or not.
AL: No, we were married at my mum’s place.
US: Alright, ok.
AL: [unclear].
US: Yeah, but I can’t remember whether you were still living at Scampton at the time when you were married or not. But at some stage, 57 Squadron transferred from Scampton to East Kirkby.
AL: Ah yes.
US: And you would, If you would remember you were driving the lead lorry that was coming [unclear]
AL: We had no road signs in those days.
HH: They’d all been taken down.
AL: [unclear] didn’t know where you were going and I was driving the lead lorry, I think there was anything up to fifty vehicles and we’d go down all these country lanes with no road names or anything and every so often I’d stop and there’d be a lot of shouting going on behind and they’d say, let us know when you want to turn because we can’t oversee you when you slip off or something and was something about it and I can’t remember that. But
HH: You got there safely, did you?
AL: Yes, yeah. I don’t even remember, I know I was driving lorries then not, I wasn’t driving in fact the only time I ever drove the CO’s car was to turn it round in the CT garage [laughs]. Yeah, I turned it round that’s all. But I did take two officers down to, they had to go to a meeting somewhere and it was south of Lincoln and I remember there was a river nearby but there was a, where you came round there’s a very steep road and then you turned in and I had to stay there, they gave me the money to go to the pictures, and I don’t know where they went for the afternoon and when I got back to the car, they were both waiting for me so I just took them back to camp. Just one of those odd things that happened.
HH: Yeah.
US: When you got to East Kirkby, you were living off the base there, weren’t you? You remember you were living at that pub called The Vanguard?
HH: The Vanguard pub?
US: Across the far side of the airfield.
AL: Yeah. I don’t remember too much about that.
HH: And then after the war, where were you, where did you?
AL: Went home.
HH: Also to London.
AL: Yeah. Or more or less Kingston-on-Thames.
HH: Kingston-on-Thames. Is that where you were living?
AL: Yeah.
HH: Ok.
AL: Yeah, my mum and dad were there, you see, they moved from Fulham up to Kingston.
US: Well, mum had to leave when sort of, I don’t know whether she declared or whether it became apparent that she was expecting, so she had to leave the WAAFs.
HH: Yeah. And then you had a family after the war. And did you stay in Kingston?
AL: Don’t know [unclear]
US: I don’t know what you did, I think you moved back up to Scampton after the war.
AL: Oh probably we did go back to Scampton.
US: Because wasn’t Valerie born at Scampton?
AL: Mh?
US: Wasn’t Valerie born at Scampton or in Lincoln?
HH: Did your husband stay in the armed forces after the war?
AL: Well, he was a permanent man, he joined, he joined when he was sixteen.
HH: So, he stayed on, ok.
AL: Oh yeah. So, wherever he went, I went, so I’ve been to Iraq and
HH: My goodness. Interesting life.
AL: And Singapore, we’ve lived in Singapore and Iraq. And several different places. [unclear] we just moved from one place to another. And if the people who just moved out didn’t wash the pottery and everything properly, you sat [unclear] and did it yourself.
HH: Amazing, yeah.
US: I think, after going back to Scampton, I think your next move was to Iraq in about 1950.
HH: Gosh!
AL: Yes, sounds about right.
US: To a Place called Habbaniya.
HH: Habbaniya. Ok.
US: Which is just outside, which is actually Bagdad. It’s now Bagdad international airport for two years I think.
HH: And did you have your family with you? You took your children with you to Iraq?
AL: Yeah.
US: The girls. I wasn’t born then.
AL: The girls. I had Leslie and Valerie, and Valerie was a little devil. Used to tell her off for swearing. And she would drop something deliberately and then she would look at me and she would say, shit! [makes a spitting sound] [laughs]
HH: [laughs] So you would, a couple of years in Iraq, so you would seen the world, have you?
AL: Yeah, and Singapore, we lived in Singapore for a couple of years.
HH: And then mostly back in this country.
AL: Yeah, but. I’ve had a good time really.
HH: You’ve had such an interesting life.
AL: Yeah.
HH: Well thank you very much, shall we stop the interview now and we thank you, you worked very hard, I’m sorry that you worked so very hard but thank you for all your wonderful stories.
AL: Well, the thing is, I mean it’s, there were probably others that, you know, if I was nudged I would probably remember them.
HH: Well, if you do we can talk some more. Thank you so much. Thank you.
AL: But, such a long time ago, I remember [file missing]
HH: So you dared to walk on the wing of a Lancaster.
AL: Yeah.
HH: And?
AL: Not while it was flying [laughs]
HH: And did you?
AL: Eh?
HH: Did you?
AL: Yeah. I walked out to I suppose within about two foot of the end of the wing.
HH: Quite a long way out.
AL: I was young and daring then. They said to me, you won’t do it, I said, oh yes, I will [laughs].
US2: Did you tell them about the night when the planes flew off to bomb the dams?
AL: The what?
US2: Did you tell Heather about the night when the planes went off on their mission to bomb the dams?
AL: Oh when they did the Dam busters, yeah [laughs]
US2: [unclear] your friend Vivian.
AL: No, when you say my friend Vivian, she worked in the bomb dump, she knew where aircraft were going. We never did. We would just, we just took the tractor and we would pick up the trailers and Vivian would say, well, you take this to F for Freddy, or G for George or whatever, and you took it to that aircraft and just left, left it there and after they had bombed up the aircraft after the, the lads that did the, oh, the armourers. After the armourers had finished doing their bit, I forgot what I was going to say now,
HH: This is about the Dam busters and your friend Vivian.
AL: Yeah.
HH: The dams raid.
AL: Yeah, because I said to Vivian, when the Dam busters went off that night, there were nineteen of them and only eleven came back and I can remember, I got a photograph of, I don’t know where it is of Vivian stood there, somebody took a photograph, wasn’t me cause I didn’t have the camera, yeah, she, cause I said to her, she was out there the next morning and when we heard that nine hadn’t come back and I remember saying to Vivian, you didn’t tell me it was the real thing! She said, well, I wasn’t supposed to. That was it. I’m sorry really that I’ve didn’t keep up with her cause I’d like to, you know, I’ve liked to keep in touch after the war but we didn’t, we just went our own separate ways, very well. But, very well.
HH: Can you remember what was Vivian’s surname in those days?
AL: Winsome. Yeah. She’s very tall, she’s much taller than me. And she was the one who found out what bit of the tractor engine you had to tie a string on if you wanted to go faster than five miles an hour. And so she [unclear] my mind up, so that I could do it but you, you could only get up to, it was only two or three miles faster than we could normally do. And
HH: I also asked you what your maiden name was and what were you known as in the WAAF.
AL: Turner.
HH: Because some people had then, you know, were known by nicknames, weren’t they?
AL: Yes, they were. I don’t think I was.
US: Well, Dad had a nickname, didn’t he?
AL: Ey?
US: Dad had a nickname, he was Lofty, wasn’t he?
AL: Yeah, dad was Lofty, because he was so tall.
HH: Because of his height, yeah, yeah.
AL: But I don’t think I had that. Oh, you got some of the pictures in there?
US: Remind you of something, these aren’t in order.
AL: Well, that’s me when I was young [laughs].
US: It’s true, just about the right time.
AL: That’s me when I was fifteen. And that’s me with Gladys. She was our lodger, she came from somewhere on the east coast and that’s Terry.
US: That was the wedding. Yeah.
HH: 1943.
AL: Oh yeah, there’s Terry and there’s me. And that’s his brother, who now unfortunately has died. That was Leslie as well and that’s my dad and that was my friend Norma. And that was next door’s little girl. There’s my dad and my mum and that was Auntie Madge and Uncle Tom, Auntie Eva, don’t know her name, that was me. That, I think that was Terry’s dad.
US: Looks like him.
AL: Yeah, I think that one was Terry’s dad, because that one is Terry’s brother, that’s Terry. Auntie somebody but she wasn’t a real auntie and there is Graham, my brother.
US: [unclear] So, what was, say a little bit about that.
AL: [laughs] we had a [unclear] and we were in the concert
HH: This is in Scampton.
US: I think so.
AL: I think it was, yeah. But I don’t remember the other two girl’s names. There’s [unclear] was, I did remember it the other day, but it’s gone again and it wasn’t spring is in the air but it was something like that, no. No, we put on a concert.
US: I remember you still had that jumper years later.
AL: I did [laughs]. Yeah, that’s when Leslie was born.
US: Scampton, was it?
AL: No, was Auntie Eva’s place.
US: Ok.
AL: Auntie Eva’s place that was.
US: And then there is a reference here to RAF Cardington.
HH: Gosh!
US: Were you there?
AL: No, I wasn’t there, Terry got posted there.
US: Maybe you were in London.
AL: No, I don’t think, that was 1945. So it was two years after we got married. He probably, he was probably posted.
US: Looked like you were in Scampton in ’47, with your dog.
AL: That’s N*****, not allowed to call them N***** now, are you? That was our N*****, he was lovely. And that’s Leslie, that’s Leslie with N***** when he was, we really got the dog for Leslie because I was shopping down in Lincoln and I went into the butcher’s and I was, you know, just getting something, was it the butcher’s? No, it wasn’t the butcher’s, it was another shop because Leslie was sat in the front seat and I had her, that’s right, and this fellow came out and he said something about a dog, he said, we found a dog in a field, that was it, it wasn’t very far away from Lincoln, his son was in the army and they bought him this puppy and his son was in the army, went to Germany and was killed and they couldn’t bear to look at the dog. So I said, I’ll take him home and so I did, so I had N***** for, how many years?
US: You must have had him from, well, I don’t know when you first got him but you probably had him to about 1950, ’51, ’52?
AL: He was quite young when I got him.
US: What happened to N***** when you were in Iraq?
AL: Mum looked after him.
US: So he was, he was still there when you got back?
AL: Yes.
US: Was he?
AL: And he went mad when he saw Terry. He suddenly realised it was Terry at the bottom of the garden.
US: And did you have him at Winterbourne Gunner as well?
AL: Yes, yeah, we did.
US: Ok. You must have had him at least ten years then.
AL: We did, he was, I think he was about ten or eleven when he died. It was a shame really, cause he was a gorgeous dog.
US: What else we got here.
AL: We got some more pictures. Do you know, I was looking at that and I was thinking, oh, I ought to know.
US: Ok.
AL: I don’t know him but I should know her.
US: Ok. [unclear] written on the back, what we got here, oh, we got Newark there.
HH: Oh yeah.
AL: Oh yeah. It’s me and Terry with Leslie, our first baby.
HH: Lovely.
AL: That’s me and that’s Terry. And that was our first one. And this is N***** as well with Leslie.
US: Scampton in ’46.
AL: Yes, Scampton 1946. It was an awful cold winter then, it really was. That’s a nice photograph of Terry.
US: Still 1948.
AL: Yeah. We were there quite a long time, weren’t we?
US: Mh.
AL: Oh, that’s when the [unclear] was in London.
US: 1951 then.
AL: We took the kids down.
US: Might go back, these are not in chronological order. Just family photographs.
AL: That’s N*****. He’s gorgeous.
HH: Lovely dog.
US: That must have been when we were at Winterbourne Gunner, old Sarum.
AL: Winterbourne Gunner.
US: Well, it must have been
AL: Ruins, Old Sarum, yes, it is.
US: Oh, tell them about the caravan.
HH: You’ve got a caravan story, have you?
AL: Well, the thing is, we went back to Winterbourne Gunner, when we were stationed there and there were no married quarters available so we bought this caravan [laughs]. And we lived in the caravan on the hill, about half way up from where the, what was the name of the unit where we were staying then?
US: Well, Boscombe Down.
AL: Boscombe Down. And she remembers more than I do.
HH: So what was it like living in a caravan?
AL: Oh, it’s quite ok.
US: See the size of it.
AL: We watched the big, when they were electing the mayor, not mayors, the
HH: General election?
AL: MH?
HH: General election?
AL: Yes. We went to a general election while we were there because we sat up at night with the television on and everything you know. And that’s when we went down to Cheddar Gorge. Weren’t you with us then?
US: No. Wasn’t born then.
AL: Mh?
US: Wasn’t born then.
AL: Oh, it must have been a later time. That’s Winterbourne, Janet, Janet and Susan they were [unclear] children not mine, who’s with Janet?
US: That’s your niece. Graham’s daughter.
AL: Who?
US: Graham’s daughter.
AL: Oh, is it?
US: yeah.
AL: Well, I’ve forgotten. That’s Cheddar Gorge. 1952, that’s the girls, Leslie and Valerie and that’s them again with the dogs.
HH: I want to take a picture [unclear].
AL: I think that’s it, is it?
US: That’s it for that album.
HH: I’m just going to take a nice picture. I’m going to say thank you again and turn this. So tell me about flying in a Lancaster.
AL: [unclear] after the war, wasn’t it?
US: No, it wasn’t. I don’t think so.
US2: Your mum’s [unclear] taxi right now. Rich is thinking about the time
US: The time when, do you remember the one about the pilot who had to do his retaining because he had a problem with landings?
AL: Oh, yes [laughs]
US: There you are, in your own words.
AL: That’s right, uhm, now, we were on night duty and what had happened? This particular pilot was having problems landing at the right place at the right time. And when the aircraft came back from the raid that night, the officer that was in charge of that group, he said, you need some more basic training, he says, so it’s ok of [unclear]
HH: Circuits and bumps.
AL: Circuits and bumps, I was trying to think of, was a case of circuits and bumps for him and of course I was on night duty then and, O for Orange he drove, he was in O for Orange because the funny thing was when he came down, my friend Vivian, she was running the flight path from her tractor, some sort of car tow, thing that was out on the aerodrome, and she was working on that, I was down, I was down the front, oh dear, a very difficult time for me, he came, that’s right, the night before there’d been a bomb raid on and when he came back, he made a bad landing and I remember that the rear gunner, he was so worried about it that as the plane hit the ground, he spun it round and jumped out. He did
US: Spun the turret round
AL: And, yeah, he spun it round, he jumped out [laughs]. Mind you that the aircraft was practically at the standstill by then so he didn’t come to any harm but he said I’m not going with that [unclear] any more [laughs].
US: So you were gonna say what the CO did to him? He made him do circuits and bumps and how did you end up being in the aeroplane?
AL: [unclear], yeah, I was just on duty that night, I can’t remember, I think I was driving a lorry. Trying to think what his name was but I can’t remember it. No, it’s gone, I can’t remember it.
US2: I think you and your girls were off at a ride, weren’t you?
AL: Mh?
US2: You and some of the other girls were off at a ride.
US: Yeah, how did you come to be off at the
AL: What?
US: How did you come to off at the chance to go up in the Lancaster when you were [unclear]?
AL: Well, that actually was a deliberate thing, the CO was very good, several of the girls asked could they go up on one of the Lancasters and on this particular occasion he said, yes, six of you can go. And six of us went, and we didn’t realise until after we took off that it was the bloke who was not doing his landings very well the night before [laughs], the first time he came down, we bounced nine times [laughs], and we were all in there and one of the girls was sick, I know, I was sat in the wireless operator’s seat and when we hit the ground the first time I left the seat [unclear], my head was practically on the ceiling [laughs], but you know we all had a good laugh out of it [laughs]. That is the sort of things that happened.
US: And do you remember anything else about the flight in the Lancaster?
AL: Which one?
US: How many times did you go round and land?
HH: Did you have to do lots of circuits and bumps with him?
AL: Yeah, I think we went round four or five times. But, you know, we were more or less prepared [coughs]. I know I stayed by the bomb aimer’s table [laughs] but I think two of the girls were sick [laughs] when we hit the ground but
HH: Dear, dear.
AL: It’s a long time ago.
HH: I’m gonna take another pickie. That’s a nice picture of you in your uniform.
AL: Oh yeah.
HH: I’ll send you these in an email. No.
AL: I mean, I’m gonna be ninety four next month.
HH: Which is wonderful, yeah.
US2: I’m not sure if I heard you say at the beginning about when you were having your driver training.
AL: Mh?
US2: I’m not sure whether I heard you say at the beginning when you were having your driver training, that you used to have, you were telling me the other day about the lectures that you were going to and you and your friends used to get [unclear] music [unclear]
AL: That was when Max
US2: Wall
AL: Max Wall, he was our sergeant in those days, and because we, half way through, I mean, he was really keeping us occupied cause he didn’t know what else to do with us, because some of our group were, who said they were willing to do desk work, they got send down to London so the group got a bit smaller, I’m trying to think what happened to the rest of us. I know the group did get smaller, we had to go, we had to go on this test to see where, it was a weird test, we had, there was a woman there and she had a, she had [unclear] in each hand and we had sheets of paper in front of us with a pen in one hand and a pencil in the other and every time she went sort of like that, we’d do a sort of a round and we had to listen for a horn so if the horn went, there was a little circle in the middle and you had to squiggle in there so and then well afterwards they would check all these pieces of paper to see how close to the truth you were, we were.
HH: So that sounds like today the equivalent of today’s theory test.
AL: Would it?
HH: I don’t know.
AL: I don’t know.
US2: [unclear] wasn’t it, called [unclear]?
AL: [unclear] was lovely, uhm, because that’s sort of round the curve and they were just round the, we were round the top a bit round the curve and at tea time [coughs] we saw the, [unclear] the fish, they’re not fish, the well-known, well, I suppose they are fish really.
HH: Dolphins.
AL: Yes, and it was beautiful sort of spring evening with low sunshine and they used to come around [coughs].
HH: Lovely.
AL: Some of the girls took photographs, I didn’t have a camera. And, a long time ago now.
HH: It is. Thank you Alma. [file missing] Ok, tell us the story of how you got bullets in your tractor.
AL: Well, what had actually happened was I had the tractor out in the daytime, doing the usual jobs, you know, [unclear] bombs about and that sort of stuff and that, was it that evening? I put the tractor away, when I got back down the next morning, I discovered that the armoury, what’s it, I’m trying to think of his rank, I can’t think of it anyway, eh?
US2: The rifle sergeant or something?
AL: No. No, he wasn’t as high up as that, [laughs], no, what happened, he, I don’t know why he had my tractor but he did, now, earlier on we had a raid over Germany, and I mean, at this time of night, I was either in the pub or gone to bed. So, it was quite late. And apparently what happened was that our blokes went over to Germany, did their bombing and everything but while they were there a German fighter plane tapped on the back end of them when they were coming home and it was when they got back to the airfield, the corporal who had borrowed my tractor for whatever reason I don’t know, cause I wasn’t even on duty then, but he borrowed my tractor and started off to get it back to the, you know, sort of empty headquarters but he didn’t have enough sense to turn the lights off, you see, so the German aircraft came down and started firing at him and he just got off the tractor [laughs], he just ran away but the tractor was there with the lights on, see so, the fellow who was bombing the tractor, there was only a tractor, see so he didn’t bomb and he finally disappeared. That was it. It was hardly worth mentioning really [laughs].
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Alma Leedham
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Heather Hughes
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-14
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Sound
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ALeedhamA160514
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Pending review
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Description
An account of the resource
Alma Leedham grew up in London and worked for Hawker aircraft on the Hurricane at the start of the war . She later trained as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force. She served at RAF Scampton driving tractors taking bombs to the aircraft. Mentions various episodes of her service life: a flash accidentally blowing up a fully bombed Lancaster and setting fire to other nearby aircraft; delivering post from Scampton to Waddington; meeting her husband, a flight sergeant; her tractor being targeted by a German fighter plane. Describes the relationships between the WAAFs and the ground and aircrews at the base. Remembers the night the Dam Busters went on their operation. Tells of her family life after the war.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
Format
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01:24:34 audio recording
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Peter Schulze
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
animal
bomb dump
bomb trolley
bombing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
hangar
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
tractor
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/PBullockWEJ1601.1.jpg
e627ecce44c4059c1c2fa2c19bc04d9e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/483/8366/ABullockWEJ151030.1.mp3
bd718c14898350813bae5fe77b18d09f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bullock, William
William Edward James Bullock
W E J Bullock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Bullock, WEJ
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant William Bullock (1916 - 2017, 566069 Royal Air Force) and a memoir. He served in Egypt and Iraq before serving as an engineering officer at RAF East Kirkby and Coningsby.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Bullock and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles [AH]. The interviewee is William Bullock [WB]. The interview is taking place at Mr Bullocks home in Horncastle, Lincolnshire on 30th October 2015.
[noise]
WB : What?
PH: You can start now.
WB: Well, What? I was born in Marshfield.
PH: Yeah.
WB: Yeah in Gloucestershire, September 30th 1916, That’s right. And after two or three years we moved into Bath, and eventually I got a scholarship to the secondary school, and, in 1932 I took the entrance exam for the RAF apprentices, and I got through alright. When I went to Holton as an apprentice for three years and I passed out in 1935, and went to Altarum[?]. It was an ex-naval Air Station, way back, and we kept time with the ships bell in the guard room [chuckle]. in the guard room. Anyway, in February ’37, well, we got posted to Egypt for Florin[?] Training School and when the war started we moved from Egypt to Havaneer[?] in Iraq. And in, I think it was in May, May ’41 the Iraqis were trying to get us out of their country and let the Germans in, and they surrounded the camp and they shelled us and bombed us for five days, day and night, bombs and shells. And, anyway, we gave a good account of ourselves and when we killed a lot of them, and in the end they decided to pack up and go. Then in, well, about May I came home, and I went to Cranwell on a Coastal Command Station, and anyways, was there for about eight months. Then I got moved to Wigsley which was is a Bomber Command training unit, training pilots for Lancasters and whatnot. And, ow, I think that would be May, May ’41 was it? I, I decided to take commission and I was commissioned as an engineer officer and I moved around various places. I did a year at East Kirkby as the Technical Adjutant doing all the paperwork and whatnot. And, anyway, I did a year there, and then I moved to Metheringham, 106 Squadron, and anyway I was there, they, they worked me fairly hard and the engineer, the group engineer came down and he said ‘Right, I want to move you Coningsby, to pathfinder squadrons, forty Lancasters. Do you think you can cope?’ I said: ‘I’ll do my best sir.’ He said ‘Right, get there on Monday. You can be a Flight Lieutenant on Friday.’ Anyway, I got there and I worked hard for, oh, three, four months and always kept me forty Lancasters going. And well then, of course, the war packed up. The Japs, the Germans packed init, and I moved to Strubby we were’re living in tents and we were waiting to go to Okinawa to bomb Japs. And then the Japs packed in, so we moved, I was there for a bit and then I we got moved, got posted to a unit over by Chester, 54 RUP. And I moved in, I reported in to senior officer. And I said: ‘RUP?’ He said: ‘Yeah.’ I said: ‘ Well, RUP? R U Repair Unit, P what’s planned.’ He said: ‘Oh bulldozers, excavators and that sort of stuff.’ ‘Oh, I’m an aircraft engineer, I’m going back to Strubby.’ He said: ‘You’re bloody well not. You’re gonna Singapore next Wednesday.’ [chuckle] Anyway, we got, I got a fortnight leave before I went to Singapore and in that time I did quick and got married to Mary. Dashed into Lincoln, got a licence from the Bishops, whatever-he-was. And we got married, got married on the Wednesday and on the Saturday recalled from leave and the next Wednesday Singapore [laugh]. And got out there but the unit I was with they never really did get never got off the ground because we, we were supposed to be repairing all sorts of, you know, bull- bulldozers, and excavators and all that sort of stuff [belch] but the machinery never turned up and in the end, in the end they more-or-less disbanded the outfit and they kept me on and all the airfield construction plants, masses of bulldozers and cranes and all that sort of stuff, they said: ‘Right now transfer that to Air Ministry Works Department, the civvy lot’, so I spent all the this time getting this stuff transferred. And then the unit at Hong Kong closed down and all their stuff came down to Singapore by ship. And they said: ‘You will collect it from the docks and take it up to Changi. And it was hard work. Anyway, we managed it, we got it there. And in the meantime, we were living in tents. But anyway, I did me spell there then, and oh what, I decided to relinquish my commission and come home. I weren’t all that happy, so I packed up and came home, and I went back in the ranks as a flight sergeant, and I soon became a warrant officer and I did, oh, I did a spell at Waddington and Hemswell home on and Spalding Moor, and then got moved to Germany, up at Sylt, up on the north Frisian Islands. And I broke[?] there for a couple of years, and came back and went Shrewsbury I’we did six very nice years at Shrewsbury, very nice years at Shrewsbury and then I got moved again up to Lynton-on-Ouse and blow-me-down if they didn’t send me back to Germany [laugh]. At this time we went to Cologne, just on the Zeiderhorf on the outskirts of Cologne. It was very nice and Mary came out and joined me there [sup on tea] and had a couple of very nice years in Germany. And then when we came back, where’d I go? Where’d I go from [pause] I can’t think where I came back to [pause], not sure really. Sure, I can’t remember. Turn that thing off.
[restart of recording]
WB : I can’t remember, what was it year? Anyway, in Germany, I was up at Sylt and there was six of us. It was in the Cold War time, so called. And there was six of us trained on this Enigma machine and, you know, it was quite the thing and one day I got there and they said: ‘Your best blue is, in the back of that van is one of our Enigma machines and it’s got to go headquarters at Buckleburg [?], 200 mile away.’ And they said: ‘You are taking it.’ I said: ‘Oh.’ He said: ‘Your orders are get it there and if you need this, don’t hesitate to use it.’ And they gave me a revolver and a box of ammunition. They said: ‘You have to use it, use it, but that must be got there!’ Anyway, we got it there, no bother, and coming back the following morning the battery packed up. We called into an RAF camp, they didn’t want to know us. A bit later on we met a RAF, an Army camp and called in there and said: ‘Can you help me?’. They said: ‘Yeah.’ Gave me a new battery and then a bit further on the throttle control spring on the engine broke and we couldn’t control it so and I didn’t know what to do and we came to a very nice old lady’s shop, and I said: ‘Stop.’ And I had a flash of inspiration and I went in the lady’s shop and I said: ‘I want some elastic that wide please, so she said there, and I said ‘It’s for my car.’ And we went out and wound it round and round and round these two stops for the throttle spring and we drove 200 miles on a piece of elastic. [chuckle] Anyways, that was in Sylt, then what -
PH: Bill, what, why don’t you tell the story about Old Sarum [?] when you went up with your boss and nearly clocked the cathedral?
WB: Oh yes, that was at Old Sarum. I went up flying with the boss in an open-seater aircraft and it was foggy and it was about 400 feet and the boss said: ‘I’ll come down to 400 feet and we’ll see if we can follow the railway back down to the town’. And we were down there in the fog and I looked and I was I was ‘Look! Look!’ and we were heading straight for the cathedral. The spire was sticking out through the fog and we were going straight for it, and we managed, and somehow we missed it. That was, that was that one. And then another time, we were flying and it, it you were in the back cockpit, you had a harness with a chain going down to the floor to hold you in, and a cable rather, and we were going along and we hit an air pocket and the plane went down and I was out! and the chain tightened and I went ‘Bomp’ and pulled me back down again. [chuckle] So that was two I’d missed.
AH: Could you, could you tell me a bit more about when you were in Iraq?
WB: Iraq?
PH : You were twenty-one, weren’t you?
WB: Yeah, yeah somewhere around there, yes, it was hot there. It was a hundred and, it got to an hundred and thirty in the summer, really hot. And when these, [unclear] and when they were bombing and shelling us, it went on day-and-night for five nights and you slept under your bed and you ‘whee’ [emphasis], you hear the head of shells going over and that one’s going for the bomb dump, and ‘whee’ and anyway we did it for five days and they packed up, and then we went on normal and we heard a different noise. And we said: ‘That’s something different’, and we looked up and there’s three German bombers coming down. And we said: ‘Where the heck have did they come from?’ And the Germans had come into Mosul, it was about a couple of hundred miles up and they came down bombing us. They came at eight in the morning, and four in the afternoon, regular as clockwork, the Germans bombing and, machine guns, anyway. We shot one or two down and in the end they, they packed up, then we followed them back to Mosul and then got them when they landed, with, with our the Hurricanes. We, we got them on the floor and they packed up, so that was peace. And, anyway decided come home. And –
PH: You actually popped a few shots with your gun didn’t you?
WB: Yes. There was a man diving at me with his plane and I managed to get me Lewis loose gun on him, but he didn’t hit me and I didn’t hit him. And we came home and [sup of tea] [loud thump] we came down, we were in Bombay for a couple of weeks waiting for a ship and then we came over to Mombasa and then we came round to Durban, and we had a couple of, eight, weeks in Durban living out in tents on the runway and then we got down to Cape Town and I managed to get ashore and go up Table Mountain. And you go halfway up in the bus to the land and then you got a cable railway for a mile [shudder]. And we got up there, and had a walk round, that was very good. And coming home, we got up to Lagos and I’m afraid I went down with Malaria, and I was in the ships hospital for about a couple of weeks with very, very bad malaria. Didn’t do me any good. And eventually we got home.
PH: Weren’t they going to chuck you overboard?
WB: Well, yes. They, I, I, I met the orderly who dealt with me sometime, I met him in Boston. And he said: ‘When you came in’, he said, ‘you were pale blue and we didn’t think you’d last the night out. So we said we’d chalk you up for over the side in the morning.’ But, anyway they treated me with MNB243 tablets, you know, anti-malaria and no doubt, they brought me round when I was still having quinine six months later to get straightened up with it. Oh.
[restart of recording]
WB: Yeah we’re in Egypt 1937 at Abusir about sixty miles away from Cairo up near the Suez Canal and we had sand yachts there and we used to have races out in the desert. And in ’37 they decided to see if they could get to Cairo. And there were seven yachts and twelve men and a dog and we set off from Abusir and we went across the desert for five days heading for Heliopolis, just outside Cairo, and we got there alright and the, the station commander landed one day, he said: ‘Where are you on the map?’ They said: ‘We don’t have a map, Sir.’ He said: ‘How do know where you are?’ And the leader amongst us, he said: ‘Well, over there,’ he said ‘you can see the Suez hills.’ ‘Yes I can see them.’ he said ‘Towards the end there’s gap.’ And he said: ‘Yes.’ ‘We’re heading for that gap in the Suez Hills.’ And we hit the gap and went down, down to Cairo. Had five nice days in Cairo, out to the Pyramids and all the rest of it. And we came back another way and got back in four days, and it was quite an exciting trip, and we’re were the only people who’ve ever done it. And we had a sailing boat down on the - we were twelve miles away from the bit of lakes on the Suez Canal. We had a sailing boat there and the air was quite nice, you go sailing.
PH: What about when the CO spotted you first?
WB: Eh?
PH: When the CO spotted you arriving over the desert?
WB: Well he came down, landed, he came down more or less, you know two or three times -
PH: But, but he didn’t believe that he could see sails, could he?
WB: Oh yes, we, one night we were camped and we’d seen a plane going on down the bombing raids during the day, and anyway we bedded down for the night and we saw lots of flares going up in the distance. And some of our blokes they walked over to see these flares and there was an army camp there, just based. And they took the CO, and said: ‘What, what are you lot doing?’ And they said: ‘Well we’re the sand yachts. [unclear] He said: ‘Sand yachts! All day long I’ve seen bloody sails, and I said I knew there was no sea over there.’ And they said: ‘What, what’s all these flares?’ I said: ‘There time expired pyrotechnics, I think we’re just getting rid of them.’ So, anyway he wasn’t very pleased. [chuckle] But then anyway. He said: ‘I and been seeing all these sails and I knew full well there was no sea over there.‘ [chuckle] Oh, well anyway, we had a nice time in Cairo. Quite nice town. Err, what else? [sigh]
AH : What was is like coming back to Britain?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like coming back to Britain?
WB : Coming back home?
AH : Yeah.
WB : Cold. [laugh] Yeah. We came, we came round Durban and Cape Town, and we just came out of Cape Town and we had, there was two, two troop ships and we had a couple of naval battles with us, and a cruiser and a couple of destroyers, and we were coming out somewhere and they said [?] ‘All hands on deck, put your lifebelts. Lifebelts on.’ So we all got on deck, and one of the destroyers it came near, and there must have been a German submarine down below and he threw depths charges up. And [intake of breath] their ship came up out of the water and we thought it’s never going down. 22,000 tonnes of ship, and we thought it was never going to a stop. But anyway, the sub didn’t get us, whether we got him or not; we, we got on home [sigh]. And we came in round the Atlantic, we c. Came into Liverpool. The night we lay there [inaudible] ladies[?], we were up on a transit camp at West Kirby, outside Liverpool and we were there and they came and bombed Liverpool. [chuckle] Oh dear. [sigh] And then when we were down at Kirkby there; a plane it took off and an engine failed, so it decided to come back. So he came back and he turned round and he came back and he, he force landed. He crash landed. And he was sitting there and he was rocking on a 4,000lb bomb. [chuckle] And we took it in turns to go in, they got the crew out, there was one man in the bomb bay. He was still, his head had gone through a partition. And we took it in turns to cut through to get him out. And we were there, and there, there were a couple of WAAFs who worked for me in the plump bay and they were outside, hugging each other. ‘Oh, Mr Bullock’s in there.’ And I said: ‘Well, if the bomb had gone off you wouldn’t have stood much chance would ya?’ [chuckle] Anyway, it didn’t go off. We got them out. [deep sigh]
AH: And what was your job role at Kirk-?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What, what did you do as what [sorry]
PH : What was your job at East Kirkby?
WB : I was, I was what they call the Technical Adjutant. I did all the paperwork and books and things and returns and all sorts of stuff, that kept me busy for a year.
PH : Did you have to clear the beds in the mornings after the raids?
WB : Pardon?
PH: Did you have to clear the personal possessions away?
WB : Oh yeah. Oh well, when the, yeah when the if any got missing on raids, yeah you had to go round and collect the kit, and I, I collected the kits of, I think, of 120 people while I was there. And we just collected it all up, put in a bag and took it to what they called ‘The Committee of Adjustment’ who sorted everything out, and actually down in East Kirkby now there’s a memorial and there’s a very nice poem, very nice poem at East Kirkby to that we lost a thousand men in three years. Yeah, that was pretty good. A thousand men in three years. [sigh]
PH : What about the plane that came in upside down?
WB : Oh yes. We, we heard a terrific roar and when we got out, there was a plane up there and, and it was coming down and one engine was on fire, and it was heading down and eventually crashed and blew up, and there was one man, they got him out, they took him away on a stretcher and he [unclear] [chuckle] And anyway we said: ‘Well what about this engine on fire?’ They said: ‘No, it wasn’t that engine, the other one.’ They said ‘when you saw him it, it was upside down.’ And he went in, oh, dear oh dear, six, six of them killed. [sigh] Yeah. I got a job there, I had to keep, keep a good supply of engines and propellers, and the engines, they had to, Rolls Royce, Glasgow they dealt with them, and, if, you know, I had a lorry load and a rear Corporal in Boston called Tom caught on, and I said: ‘Tommy, I’ve got a load for Glasgow.’ He said: ‘Right, send your lorry.’ And he sent me lorry and trailer to deliver with a load of all these engines. And up and off they went to Glasgow. And came back with another load. But the, the more powerful Rolls Royce engines, the Merlins they went to Derby, Nightingale Road, Derby. So, so we sent them there, and oh – yeah, err. Now what else?
PH : What about the Tirpitz?
WB : The Tirpitz? Oh well, erm. Yes, the erm, this [stutter] the group engineer he came to me at East Kirkby and there were the more powerful Merlins, 34s. He said: ‘I want all your 34s with the broad propellers in sets. He says ; ‘It’s nothing to do with you what I want them for,’ but he said: ‘Get me in sets of four and when you get a set let me know.’ So, so I’m getting them all, got all me, changed all the, the little engines, but took the big ones out. Got them all rolled up and anyway, he came and he took them, and they went to 9 Squadron at Bardney, and it was for bombing the Tirpitz. Yeah, so at least we had a hand in that. [sigh] Oh yes, when this, when this one crashed and landed and a big piece of the airplane, it went through the guardroom, and there was a man, a man in the guardroom locked up on punishment. And this piece of metal, huge leg that went across and through the wall in the Nissan hut, over a bed and out the other side. And the following morning the padre he was around, he saw it, he said: ‘No matter where the evil doeth, the wrath of the Lord shall seek him out.’ [long chuckle] Oh dear, oh well at, yeah, Metheringham, we had what they called FIDO and it was pipes down each side of the runway, all the way down, with little holes in and when it was really foggy, they’d fiddle with the flares all down each side of the runway, and we had it once and it burnt big holes in the fog. And they landed, and an American landed but he had to come for some, he came in, and in a a fighter plane, and he went down and he slewed off the runway, he hit all my FIDO pipes, went back on again, and when he got to Traffic Control, he said: ‘It’s a mighty good thing you got there for keeping people on the runway. [chuckle] Yeah, Gibson, Guy Gibson, he was, when he’d done his job he came to us at East Kirkby for a rest. And he wasn’t a nice man. Very unpopular man. ‘Don’t call me Guy. Call me Dam Buster.’ But his dam, his bomb didn’t hit the dam, it missed it. Oh, he wasn’t a very nice man at all. And in the end, he accidently got shot down by one of our own bombers. Yeah, they mistook him for a German and they shot him down.
PH : Didn’t, didn’t some Canadian guy clock him one?
WB : Yeah, yeah he was getting a bit too familiar with, when they went to Canada, he was getting a bit too familiar with some blokes wife. A great big Dutch man, so he just went up and he dropped him. ‘THUNK!’ He said: ‘Leave my wife alone.’ [chuckle] He wasn’t a popular man at all. [long sup of tea.]
AH : And how did you feel about where -? How was morale?
WB : [still supping on tea] About what?
AH : How was morale when you were at East Kirkby?
WB : Oh all right. Yeah I did, I did me year on paperwork [laugh].
PH : Did, didn’t you, get to advise somebody at the Battle of Britain Flight about how to get a propeller prop off?
WB : You what?
PH : You advised somebody at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight how to get the propeller off because they were struggling to get the nuts off.
WB – Don’t get that –
PH : You got two awards for doing inventions, didn’t you?
WB : Oh, oh the thing the thing for taking propellers apart. Yeah [sniff sigh] Yes, when, yes that’s when I was at Waddington, and the big four bladed propellers on the, now then, they were Lincolns, not Lanc- Lincolns. You get the pulling them apart, and you shovel a big ring in and you had a big lever and pulled it, pulled it, pulled it. And, oh, it took men all day trying to get these damn things out and I said: ‘No.’ So I invented the little, a little gadget, a little tube about that long with a big nut and bolt in it and I put it in between the two blades and tightened it up, pushed them out two at a time. No bother. And I got a £15 reward from Bomber Command for inventing it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I did something else, I did somewhere else. Yeah, at, you took the cylinders off jet engines and you put them in some horrible acid stuff and soaked them to get the carbon off, and you had to heat it with big immersion heaters, and it was in this wooden box, and it took all day to heat it, and it didn’t get anywhere, so I thought, no. So, when, when new batteries came for the aeroplanes, they were in big polystyrene packs, and I collected all these sheets of polystyrene about a foot wide and about three feet long and glued them all around this container, and it heated it up quickly, and kept it warm. No both rugger, and the Air Ministry gave me £5 for thinking of it, for saving electricity. [chuckle] Yeah. - Oh, a thousand bomber raid, well I didn’t get mixed up with any of them. The first one, we were at Wigsley, we sent our planes to Swinderby, we operated there, a thousand bombers –
PH : How did it actually work?
WB : Eh?
PH : How did it actually work? How did you get a thousand bombers up at the same time?
WB : Well, eh, I they were all over the place, weren’t on they? Just came up. [deep sniff and sigh]
PH : When you were at school you used a tray, sand tray.
WB : Yeah, yeah when we were in the infants school. We had a little tray with sand, you wrote in it with our fingers and they did the same in Mereman [?] Fen. I was talking to a man once said: ‘We had these little trays with sand now, you do it with your fingers.’ And then eventually you got slate and you had a piece of rag pinned to your jersey to rub the slate out [laughter and sigh]. The things we did.
AH : Can you tell me more about Coningsby?
WB : Pardon?
AH : When you were at Coningsby.
WB : Well, that was in ’45. Yeah, I had 40 Lancasters to look after. Make sure they were there at the right time, otherwise if you didn’t, you’re chucked you out. Anyway, I always got them there right. No bother.
PH : You were part of Pathfinders, weren’t they?
WB : Eh?
PH : Were they Pathfinder Squadrons?
WB : Pathfinder, yeah. The ones who went in early and dropped flares for the others to bomb. They had them at Coningsby, yeah. And I had to keep 40 of them ready, all the time. No bother.
PH : How did you manage to do it in the winter?
WB : Well, you just did. Mostly they didn’t give you a lot of trouble. You didn’t get a lot of trouble. But in the winter, it if it, if it was bad out, you sprayed the wings with the de-icing stuff, to get [unclear], to get the ice off, and the propellers. You had to get the ice off before they could go or otherwise it was they were, you know, heavy and all the rest of it. Had to get this ice going. [sigh] Yeah. [long pause]
AH : What was it like being in Germany?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What was it like being in Germany after they’ve been bombed? And then you...
WB : It was all right in Germany, they, they weren’t hostile at all. They were just mixed up, ordinary people. It wasn’t their fault we bombed them and they bombed us. But Hamburg, was a bit of a mess. Nice town Hamburg. Yeah. Yeah, we had a nice holiday in Hamburg. We went down to, oh, Ruhpolding, had a nice holiday there. And then we went down, we went down as far as Venice once on holiday. It was very good. We went down on, went down in the bus to, right in the corner of Germany and then we got a bus down to Venice. Four, four, five days in Venice. And we were way up in the mountains, and over, about a mile away there were two or three big American lorries. They were letting big black balloons up, and they were going up and over. And the bus driver stopped and everybody was looking, and I said: ‘I know [emphasis], I know what they are.’ I used to take The Reader’s Digest and there’d been an article in there about this lot, and when the wind blew in a certain direction over from Germany to Czechoslovakia, they used to let these big black balloons up full of leaflets and they would drift over to Czechoslovakia and drop all the leaflets down. So I told, there’s a man there who spoke English and I said: ‘I know what they are.’ And I told him. ‘Oh’ And they said: ‘Oh, the Englishman, he knows.’ [chuckle] They was alright. We had a nice holiday in Venice. You did, didn’t you?
PH: Yes. What was your nickname in the RAF? Was it Abdul?
WB : Abdul. Yeah, they called me Abdul. ‘Cos when we, I was always out in the sun. I was the colour of that table. And, when we got to, we went from Egypt, they moved us to Iraq, and got there, and of course, they all called me Abdul. And we had a, one of the locals, he looked after the bungalow, kept things clean, made the bed and all the rest of it. He said to me one day, I wonder. He says: ‘Why you in Royal Egypt? You Egyptian?’ I said: ‘I’m not a bloody Egyptian. I’m an Englishman.’ He said: ‘You black, why they call you Abdul!’ [loud cough]. And I never convinced him I was Englishman. Never. Oh dear, dear, dear. Oh, we had fun. Better out now [unclear].
PH : Did you have much entertainment off the base, at the village halls?
WB : No. [door bell and distant voices.] Father he joined the army as a bugler boy, and in the war he was called up to Air Ministry, and they said: ‘We want to put you in charge of, of a training squadron, you know a transport, a training squadron, and we’ll up you to squadron leader.’ And the man who was dealing with, he said: ‘You were my bugler boy when you joined the Army, weren’t ya?’ [laughter] Anyway, dad, he did very well as squadron leader. Yeah, he worked hard. [sigh] Did 41 years all together in the army, RFC and Army and Air Force. He was number 150 in the RFC. Very senior. Still not the first day and his brother was number 700, he joined up the next day. [chuckle] My brother did 22 years, my sister did four and a half in the Army and then she, she was civil servant with the, with the Navy in the Admiralty. And she, she was the personal private secretary to the Director Technical Polaris. Very, very important job and but if any of her admirals where going anywhere, she had to arrange all the transport, the right flags and, this, that and the other. And, and one of them one day said: ‘We’ve never seen you at one of our launches. You know when they launch one of the Polaris.’ She said: ‘I’ve never been invited.’ He said: ‘You will come to the next one.’ So the next launching, they laid a staff car on for Betty, picked her up, took her to the station, first class travel up to Barrow, entertained her, put her in a hotel, staff car took her out to the launching, came back, and when, when she left they, they gave her a carriage clock, and on the side of it was something-or-other : To Miss Betty Bullock [coughing] Aminu Ensis[?] to make the war work to seven admirals, and there were all these admirals names, and that was, that was good. She did a very good job with these admirals. Seven. Twenty-one years she was an admiral’s secretary. They took her out to a nice posh dinner and saw her off well. So we did our share. I did 34 years. My brother did 22 years. My dad did 41. And my sister did, oh heavens only knows how many. [sigh] Yeah.
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB : Pardon?
AH : What did your dad do in the First World War?
WB :` Oh, he was in the Flying Corps. Yeah, he was an Engineer Officer with the Flying Corps – Number 1 5 0. They did all sorts of things.
PH : What sort of planes would he be working on?
WB : [growls] Well, I know De Havilland something or other. Bristol fighters, Sopwith Camels and all sorts of thing. There was one there that had a rotary engine and instead of the engine being still and everything going round, the crankshaft was bolted and the engine went round it. No, no rotary. The engine went round [stutters]. You wouldn’t imagine it, would you? Anyway it did.
PH : What year did you join the RAF?
WB : I joined up in ’32 and I came out in ’66. Yeah. I went everywhere from AC1 to flight lieutenant and back again. [Long sniff] Oh, I wasn’t all that happy with being a flight lieutenant, I don’t know, I, anyway I ditched my commission and I went back and I was a warrant officer for about 13 years, and I was much happier as a warrant officer. You didn’t have big mess bills and expenses at all. You, you were well off. [coughing] No, I usually had jobs in charge of workshops and it was a real, you know, nice job. Workshop jobs. Where the work was. [coughing and long pause].
AH : What did you do after the war? After you left the RAF, sorry?
WB : I came out the year I went down to Horncastle Rural District Council and the rating department, collected money and all this that and other. And then did that for about eight years. And then when this reorganising took place, I got moved to East Lindsey District Council, and oh, oh I don’t know I did paperwork all the time. Yeah.
PH : It wasn’t particularly a cosy job at times though. You got followed, didn’t you, one time –
WB : Eh?
PH : You got followed because you got money in the car. Didn’t –
WB : Oh. no, I didn’t get stopped.
PH : No, but didn’t somebody follow you all day.
WB : Well, that were coming back from Wragby. Somebody once said to me: ‘I used to collect rent at Wragby and you got several hundred pound in your bag.’ And somebody once said to me. No, no it was me wife, she was in the dentist was down the dentist in the town there, and they were talking this and said: ‘You know when that rent collector goes over the level crossing at 4 o’clock’, they said, ‘He’s got an awful lot of money in that bag.’ And Mary told me, she said: ‘Oh.’ Anyway, the next time I came out when I went over the level crossing, and there was a car, there was a van there. I thought: Oh. So I put my foot down and came back about 70 mile per hour and I told the boss and he said: ‘Right, so from then on, someone was seen to see me in the afternoon and take a big bag off me with most of the money. So they didn’t, I didn’t have all that money to people to pinch off me, but I wasn’t very happy with people following me. ‘Cos they said: ‘If every you’re attacked, just let the money go, don’t argue.’ I said: ‘No, not if I been collecting it, bugger it. I’m not let them have it.’ [chuckles] So, anyway, we didn’t have any more bother. But it makes you wonder, don’t it?
[long pause]
PH : You seen a lot of changes in aircraft design, haven’t you?
WB: Yeah [sniff] yeah. The one, the one before the Lancaster was a Manchester. It had two, two big engines, 3,000 horsepower engines. Two. There were, the, the Merlins two like that and the [unclear] Vulcan and it had [stuttering] X’s. Vulture, anyway they were the two big cross engines and it only had a single tail rudder. The old Manchester it was useless as an aeroplane. It was slow and it was cumbersome. It didn’t carry much big load. Anyway, they soon turned it into a Lancaster, and it was a marvellous aeroplane. Marvellous aeroplane. They made 700, 7,000 odd in the war. Yeah, it was the best plane that came out of the war. [inaudible]
PH : What’s the one after the Lancaster?
WB : Lincoln. A bit, bit, bit bigger. Four bladed props against the Lancasters three. Yeah, I think it had bigger, didn’t have a Griffin engine, I think the Lincoln. A bigger engine. And it was a big aeroplane. It was East, erh, Waddington. [pause] Yes [long pause]
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Pardon?
AH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Do what?
PH : Is there anything else you’d like to say?
WB : Well I don’t think so, I can’t think of much. No, no not much to do with the RAF. There are things not to do.
AH : How do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Does she what?
PH : How do you feel that Bomber Command was treated after the war?
WB : Well...
PH : ... with Bomber Harris.
WB : Bomber Harris, they didn’t treat him well. They - everybody got a knighthood, but not, not Bomber. They, they, they ignored him. They didn’t treat him right. He did a good job, Bomber Harris. They said he was brutal, but he only did his job. He just said: ‘If you can’t get the factories, get the people that who work in them.’ Well, fair enough, but you can’t blame him for that. He got these bombers going. No, he wasn’t treated well, Bomber Harris – ha [long sigh] There’s a man just died, Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And he was down at East Kirkby, and John Chatterton, he had to test pilots, and he said: ‘I remember this bloke Michael Beetham coming through, and he was too good, he said he had, had to rate him above average, cos he’s way above average.’ And he finished up Marshall of the Royal Air Force, Sir Michael Beetham. And I met him, nice man, met him down at East Kirkby. Yeah. And there were two ex-apprentices, got cadetship and went to Cranwell. They both finished up as Air Marshalls. Yeah. Some did well, very well.
PH : What, what were you days at Houlton like?
WB : Eh?
PH : What were your days at Houlton like?
WB : All right.
PH : What were you know as?
WB : Oh, Trenchard Sprouts [chuckle] Yeah. Oh, it was a good life, yeah, yeah it was a good life. You worked hard, but they trained you well. But they always said: ‘If a bloke was ever trained at Houlton, he could walk straight into a job at Rolls Royce. That was that Houlton training, you can go straight to Rolls Royce as a workman. [sniff and sigh] Yeah. Three years. Jolly good.
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Eh?
PH : Who was Trenchard?
WB : Well, he was a General in the First War and then he, he started the, more-or-less, started the Air Force, as such, Flying Corps. General Lieutenant, General Sir whatever his name Trenchard, and he started the apprentice scheme, the apprentice’s scheme; hence the name Trenchard Sprouts. He was a good man, Trenchard. Not a big man. Yes he started the RAF. [loud crash and bang] Ohi.
AH : Well, thank you very much.
WB : Pardon?
AH : Thank you.
PH : Yeah, well call that -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William Bullock
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-30
Format
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00:57:49 audio recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABullockWEJ151030, PBullockWEJ1601
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
William Bullock was born in Marshfield in Gloucestershire in September 1916 and joined the Royal Air Force as an apprentice in 1932. He was posted to Egypt for training - after serving in the Middle East he joined Bomber Command as an engineer. After serving at RAF East Kirkby, William moved to 106 Squadron at RAF Metheringham before joining Pathfinders at RAF Conningsby, looking after and maintaining 40 Lancasters. William was in charge of moving aircraft around from location to location and tells about his role as a technical adjutant and supplying Merlin engines for the attack on the Tirpitz. He also describes his technical innovations and of his meeting with Guy Gibson. William tells about his post war family and service life, with details on his posting in Sylt, Germany where he saw the extent of bombing damage. He also elaborates on Hugh Trenchard, Michael Beetham, and Arthur Harris.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Sylt
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
North Africa
Iraq
Iraq--Mosul
106 Squadron
bombing
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Metheringham
Tirpitz
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/315/3472/APayneAJ150811.2.mp3
ee6769cc020c59ef42f4867ae1c03636
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Alan
Alan John Payne
Alan J Payne
Alan Payne
A J Payne
A Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Alan John Payne DFC (1315369 and 173299 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He completed 18 operations as a bomb aimer with 630 Squadron.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Payne, AJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m conducting an interview with Alan Payne in Wendover, Buckinghamshire along with his grandson, Aaron Payne. And we’re going to talk about his life and keep the tape running until we need to have a break. So, Alan could I ask you to talk about your life from the earliest days please and then your childhood and how you came to join the RAF and then your experiences. And then after the RAF what you did. So over to you —
AP: Well, I was born here in Wendover. My father was a coal merchant. He had his own business. He even had, he even had his own coal trucks. Coal trucks. And I attended a local junior school until I passed to go to the Wycombe Technical Institute where I did technical studies. I had quite a happy childhood. I had one brother who unfortunately now has dementia. He’s younger than me but he does suffer with dementia. But then as I say, I had a childhood in Wendover. Local school. Then went to High Wycombe Technical College. The war was on then. I didn’t want to join the army or the navy so I volunteered for the Royal Air Force. I was seventeen when I volunteered. So, volunteering for the air force meant I was safe from being recruited in to the army which I did not want. And I had about a year to wait until I was called up and I got notice to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground in London. That was the recruiting place. Lord’s Cricket Ground. Just basic stuff there. Lots of inoculations. We were put up at Abbey Wood and then from there we were sent out to Torquay first of all for basic training. Drill. Law. This type of thing. Then from there I went to Brighton for a time. There again it was basic training. They were, they housed us in the hotels along the front. One thing I do remember about that time was Richard Tauber who was appearing in the, in The Pier Concert Hall and I saw him and thought what a wonderful chap he was. He was an Austrian Jew of course and he got out of Germany before the trouble started. But that’s one thing I do remember about that time there. This is all basic stuff.
[pause]
CB: So, after Brighton what did you do?
AP: After Brighton.
CB: What did you do in Brighton?
AP: Well, after Brighton — I did mention Torquay didn’t I?
CB: Yes.
AP: And then Brighton. Then from Brighton we were sent, we were sent out to South Africa. I was quite lucky really because I was sent to train with the South African Air Force and we were — we had to transport up to Liverpool. Got on a boat called the Volendam. A Dutch boat. The Volendam. And we departed for South Africa in convoy and that journey took, I think, four or five weeks. We stopped at Freetown on the way to refuel and then into Durban. And from — Durban was just a holding centre. And then from Durban we were posted to East London. East London. Where we started our training in flying and I hadn’t really flown before then. But we started flying then on Avro Ansons and that was basic navigation. And at Queenstown — that was navigation and then, and then from there we were posted to the gunnery school where we did bomb aiming and air gunnery. Pause it just a minute Chris while I just make reference?
CB: Ok. So, your logbook will remind you.
AP: Port Alfred.
CB: Yeah.
AP: It was Port Alfred where we went to for gunnery.
CB: Ok.
AP: A very nice little seaside town not far from Queenstown. Went to Port Alfred. There we were on Airspeed Oxfords. And then whilst there for [pause] to get us used to the night time flying we were sent to a little place called Aliwal North. And the runways there were lit by flares. So there was no lighting there. Just these flares that we had to land on but that gave us our basic training for night flying. And it was at Port Alfred that we passed out and had a, we had a passing out parade in Queenstown. We had a very good do there and I do have the, a copy of the menu.
[pause]
So, having, having finished our training we, we were sent down to Cape Town and we sailed back from Cape Town in the old Queen Mary with no escort at all because she relied on speed to get us through. I think she did about thirty three, thirty five knots. So we sailed back in good time and on the way back too we were taking a whole load of Italian prisoners of war and we escorted them back to — Liverpool that we went in to. And then to finish our training I was posted to Dumfries in Scotland where we did basic training. Bombing, map reading, this type of thing. And from Dumfries we were sent to a holding station at Harrogate. And I always remember the CO there was Leslie Ames, the old Kent cricketer. He was the CO at this hotel. Had a very cushy job really, in the war, didn’t he? But we were there for a few weeks and then we were posted to Turweston — an Operational Training Unit where we were on Wellington bombers. And it was at Turweston and this, and this other station, Silverstone that we were crewed up. And it was rather strange — we were all let loose in a big hangar and we had to sort of had to find our pilot and navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator. We just got together and sorted ourselves out. That was the way it went in those days. I was lucky because my pilot, Geoff Probert, was an ex-guardsman. We called him grandfather because he was, he was thirty odd. He’d volunteered as a pilot and we were all in our early twenties so he looked after us really. And he was a jolly good captain. Anyway, we did our OTU training and we were all, we were all crewed up and ready to go and at Silverstone we also did some cross-country stuff. And then the next move was to Winthorpe. A Conversion Unit. And we converted then to Lancasters and that’s when the training really started. And I was there in October, November ‘43. And then at the end of November we were posted to East Kirkby. That was, that was the operational station. We were posted to 630 Squadron which was a wing of 57 Squadron. I always remember that part of my service well really because it was just like a builder’s site. There was mud everywhere. There was just basic, basic accommodation in Nissen huts. A central stove. Everything was running with condensation. The clothes were damp. Everything was damp. And it was a very cold winter then. In fact, we did our first op on the 2nd of December to Berlin. And everything was centred on getting the aircraft operational. The fact of our comfort didn’t really enter into things but we managed and, but as I say it was pretty rough at that time. There was no basic comforts. There was no basic comforts at all and the weather was so cold too. We started off with six trips to Berlin and the weather was so bad we hardly saw the target at all. We were bombing on Wanganui flares through cloud cover. During that time, we did Berlin, Stettin, Brunswick, Berlin, Magdeburg. As I say, six Berlin trips. But, at the same time although the weather was bad we did find time to get out to the Red Lion at Revesby which was our local pub. And we had a bit of relief there.
[pause]
The worst trip I had really was the one to Nuremberg. That was at the end of March. It was March 30th. We were attacked then by an ME109 but luckily, he missed us but he did fly pretty close. But we were lucky really. As I said we had some near squeaks. And one of the things that did, that I always found amazing was the fact that you’d be flying along in the dark and all of a sudden you got over the target and there were planes everywhere. And we had two, we had two narrow go’s where we nearly collided with another Lancaster. But as I say we were very lucky in many respects. Another op we did was the one to Mailly-le-Camp. That was, that was a military camp and that was a bit, that was being marked by Group Captain Cheshire. And everything went wrong that night. Everything was late. We had to circle and circle until we could get in to bomb on the flares that had been set by Cheshire. And then following on then, on the run up to D-Day we were more or less doing trips on marshalling yards, bridges, anything that would hamper the movement of the Germans. When D-Day approached [pause] when we finished our tour, just before D-Day in fact, although our last trip, the end of March 1944 was mine laying in Kiel Bay. And there we were hit by a — attacked and hit by a JU88. We caught fire but luckily the fire, for some good reason went out. We were jolly lucky then. But as I say we’d done twenty nine trips then and the CO came to us. He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ve had it now. You can finish.’ But on the social side there I did know a young WAAF girl called Pat who more or less adopted the crew. No. We adopted her. And she took a liking to me and we spent a lot of time together. I’ve got a little picture of her here. We used to go cycling together and went to the pub at Revesby. I got very fond of Pat but of course when it came to [unclear] to go to see her. I don’t know whether he has or not. As I say by the end, by the time we’d finished, the end of May, the weather was, the weather was better but it had been a pretty dreadful winter. Anyway, at the end of our tour we all broke up and we all went our different ways. First of all, I went out to Moreton Valence where we were doing instructing and doing compass swings and basic stuff. And from there to Llandwrog in North Wales. And then I was quite lucky then because we were sort of messing about doing not much in particular and then a posting came through. They wanted, they wanted a navigator to go out to Palestine. So, I was, in the first instance I was sent out to Saltby, a Conversion Unit. And then to Matching and I crewed-up then with a guy called Flying Officer Nichols. And we were, as I say on Halifaxes which was a better aircraft for transport work than the Lancaster. The Lanc had a very narrow fuselage whereas with a Halifax you could get two lines of chaps down either side of the aircraft. And we did container dropping, glider towing. Anything which would help the 6th Airborne. We were attached to the 6th Airborne Division then and we went out with them to Palestine which, in 1946, wasn’t very healthy really. Because the Irgum Zvai Leumi were — and Begin, they weren’t very happy with us then. They blew up the King David Hotel. They shot two of our sergeants in [unclear]. You may remember that. We always had to look at, mind our backs because the — at that time, I shouldn’t say this but the Jewish weren’t very friendly towards us. And we used to go out to, they used to, they were bringing their migrants in by boat and part of our duty was to fly over the Med to report boats coming in. At the same time we did exercises down to Bagdad with the Airborne division. We did quite a bit of flying up through, up through Italy and we helped then to bring some of the migrants back to Palestine. It was quite an interesting time really although we had to watch what we were doing. But as I say we used to fly to Bagdad.
CB: What were you doing when you flew to Bagdad? What was the main reason for that?
AP: It was an exercise for the 6th Airborne Division.
CB: So, you were moving troops.
AP: It was a very good camp at Bagdad actually. They had a, they had a very nice camp outside and we went there two or three times. There were lakes there and the flying boats used to come in there, you know. I quite enjoyed the time out there in a way had it not been for the fact that we were liable to be sort of potted at. We also went down to Khartoum which was one of the hottest places I’ve ever known. In fact, it was so hot there that we couldn’t run the engines up. We had to be towed to the end of the runway, start the engines and take off so they did not overheat, you see. That again was an exercise with the Airborne division and they would do, they would do parachute drops. That type of thing.
[pause]
AP: We did quite a few trips up too, from Aqir airbase in Palestine. We did quite a few trips up to Udine. Udine. By stopping at Malta to refuel and then flying up to the coast of Italy in to Udine. And there again, it was a case of exercising with the 6th Airborne Division.
CB: So, you weren’t doing any doing bombing. You were —
AP: Oh no. No bombing at all. No. It was all —
CB: Not even practice. It was moving people.
AP: Moving people about. Troops. Migrants. And then, come the end of August it was time for me to be demobbed and that’s the only time I’ve flown in a Dakota. I was flown down to Cairo with some other guys. Then we were flown back by Dakota to London via Malta into Heathrow. And Heathrow then, of course, was just a series of huts. There was nothing like there is today. But that’s the only time I’ve flown in a Dakota. Although, a few weeks ago, when I was up at East Kirkby I sat down at a bench with a colleague of mine. Got chatting. And the guy I spoke to owned the Dakota at East Kirkby. Maybe you know him. Do you know him?
CB: I don’t. No.
AP: Well, anyway, he happened to be there and it was his aircraft and we chatted away and he’s very fond of the Dakota. But that more or less tied up my time in, with the Royal Air Force and I didn’t know quite what to do for a time. But I had always wanted to go into building so I applied to become an architect and I was lucky enough to be accepted at the School of Architecture at Oxford. I had to wait a few months before there was a vacancy and our course at that time only consisted of thirty people. There were two girls and the rest of us were men and half of them were ex-service people. In fact Oxford in those days was full of ex-servicemen and we had to compete with the youngsters. But after five years I passed. That must have been in [pause] ’46 ’47 I went to Oxford. It must have been the early ‘50s. And in those days jobs were hard to find and luckily I had some contact in North Wales and I was found a position there to start my architectural career. And from there things just moved on. Do you want — is that?
CB: Married?
AP: Pardon?
CB: When you got married.
AP: Oh yeah. Well, back in, back at the end of the war.
CB: Ok.
AP: Sorry. I left that out.
CB: How did you come to meet your wife?
AP: Oh, at the ‘drome in Llandwrog in North Wales.
CB: That was an OTU was it? Training place.
AP: Yeah. It wasn’t an OTU. No. It was a training place. Actually, I was there on — it would be — not D-Day. VE day. VE day in Caernarfon and the whole town turned out. Do you know Caernarfon? Very nice little town.
CB: Yeah.
AP: We went into Carnarvon and I’d met Gwen then and we went out together and celebrated around the castle.
CB: Yeah.
AP: And that was before, before I went to Oxford of course.
CB: So were you able to earn money while you were at Oxford?
AP: Well, I’ll say one thing for the Labour government then they paid for our fees and gave us a living allowance. So that was one, that was one credit that we had, we had to bear. Not bear. To put up with.
CB: And Gwen was working as well.
AP: She was. Yes. Yes, she was working for a time. Then the children came along and that was it.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Housewives didn’t work in those days did they?
CB: They didn’t.
AP: They stayed home and stayed put.
CB: No. No. Going back to your early days. How were you actually selected first of all? How were you selected for aircrew because you might have done a ground job? So at what point —
AP: Well I remember going to Oxford. There was a recruiting centre there and I’d put down for, I’d passed as pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
CB: Yeah.
AP: That was the categories. I passed for that and I had a medical at the same time there. That was in Oxford back in, when I was only seventeen. And then they selected you for aircrew training. Everybody wanted to be a pilot of course but it was a matter of luck when you, when the time came. If they wanted navigators you were a navigator. You know. Or pilot. As things turned out it’s just as well I did go as a navigator I suppose.
CB: In what way?
AP: Well, I survived.
CB: Right. Going then on to the training in South Africa. You wore the brevet of an observer. So how was the course structured and how did you have that brevet rather than a navigator brevet?
AP: We were the last course to do the observer. We were the last people to do the observer course. And after that it became NavB and bomb aimers. But we did the whole lot. We did the three. Bomb aiming, navigation, air gunnery. We did the lot. After that the NavB’s just did navigation.
Yeah.
But for that reason, when we got back to the UK the Lancs were coming in. They wanted bomb aimers. And having done the observer course we were, of course, selected to take on that job you see.
CB: But you did navigation. Oh you didn’t.
AP: I didn’t — well I did map reading of course in Bomber Command.
CB: Yeah. Right.
AP: Which was quite important in the run up to D-day because a lot of our targets then were marshalling yards, bridges, that type of thing and we had to do map reading and pin point bombing.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Because we daren’t drop the bombs on the French domestic.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Sites.
CB: Which was the problem with that Cheshire raid. Identifying the military camp which was close to a village.
AP: Mailly-le-Camp. Yeah. That was quite a tricky raid that was. In fact, that picture you’ve seen was done a day or two before or a day or two after.
CB: So, what was, what actually caused the holdup and why were so many planes circling? Waiting.
AP: There was a hold up. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened. We never did find out but everything — we were late getting there. I mean, we got there too early or Cheshire was too — he was in a Mosquito and he went in after we did and marked the target. But it was a very successful raid. Although we did lose quite a few aircraft in collisions. We had to circle around waiting for these markers to go down.
CB: Yeah.
AP: And Nuremberg has been well documented by John Nicholl of course but that was a complete disaster because it was a beautiful moonlight night. A beautiful night and you could see for miles but the winds were, the winds were behind us and we got there far too early.
CB: Right.
AP: I believe Rusty was on that raid, wasn’t he?
CB: He was. Yes.
AP: Well he would tell you that. I suppose.
CB: Yes. So, in terms of bomb aiming you’ve got the markers sent down. What colour were they and how did you respond?
AP: Either red or green.
CB: Right.
AP: Well we were told, we were told by the Pathfinders which to bomb on, you see. I didn’t, I didn’t like that aspect of flying really because you didn’t know quite what you were going to hit. It could be a hospital, a school. You didn’t know. Whereas with the runup to D-day you had specified military targets and you knew that you weren’t affecting the civilian population. Because I wasn’t at all happy with bombing. I didn’t do the Dresden raid thank goodness but wearing my other cap it seemed so unnecessary to me to have bombed Dresden. It was a beautiful city. I have been back since and they’ve rebuilt it and even so it did seem a great shame to do that at that point in time.
CB: So, in the Nuremberg raid did you get any damage to your aircraft?
AP: No. Luckily, we had a very good run but all around us we saw aircraft going down. Ninety six went down that night. As you know.
CB: Yes.
AP: And we were told, you know, that the Germans were using scarecrows just to frighten us. They weren’t scarecrows they were Lancs blowing up. It’s a horrifying sight to see a Lancaster, you know, completely burning out.
CB: Did you know about Schrage Musik then?
AP: Hmm?
CB: Did you know about the German upward firing Schrage Musik?
AP: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: At that time?
AP: Well, yes. We had H2S you know. H2S. And we were convinced that they were homing in on that. As soon as we got over the coast. Because that used to give us a picture of the ground on the, on the radar screen —
CB: Yes.
AP: But we were, we were convinced that the Germans were homing in on this. It may not have been the case but it was, it was one constant battle between the fighters and us, you know.
CB: Yes.
AP: We had Window as you know which was metallic strips. That used to help. No. In a way we were very lucky and of course having Geoff Probert, a very senior chap, he was thirty two. In fact, we called him grandad because we were all in our early twenties, you know and he used to keep us in order.
CB: He did.
AP: Yes. He was very good like that.
CB: Yes. What about other members of the crew? What were they like? So, navigator. Who was he?
AP: Tom Mackie. Tom Mackie was the navigator. He did the same sort of training that I did but he just missed out on the observer course and did the NavB and do you know after the war he set up a firm called [pause] and he became a millionaire with his own aircraft. I’ve forgotten the name now.
Other: City Electric.
AP: What?
Other: City Electric.
AP: City Electrical. Which is worldwide. He died about a year ago. Because I was very friendly with Tom. But he had, he had his own aircraft. In fact we flew — I did one or two flights with him after the war. He and it all started with his gratuity. He got in, he got into the motor trade just at the right time and sort of built, sort of built an empire.
CB: So, he was the navigator.
AP: Yeah.
CB: What about your wireless operator signal? Who was that?
AP: He was the one chap — we do know the others have passed on but our wireless operator was [pause] well we just lost, lost track of him. We tried to locate him. Tom, our navigator, used to go to Canada where we thought he was but he could never find him.
CB: What was his name?
AP: Lawrence. Vic Lawrence. He was the wireless operator. Nice guy but we just lost track of him so whether he’s alive or not we just do not know.
CB: What about the flight engineer? Who was that?
AP: Eric. Eric. [pause] the name’s gone. It’ll come back to me.
CB: Was he a busy man in the sorties?
AP: Oh yes. He was nearly a second pilot in a sense. He sat next to the pilot and he adjusted the, he sort of adjusted some of the instruments and on take-off he would hold the throttles open. How stupid, the names gone. When he, when he left the RAF he moved down to the coast near Bournemouth. I saw him a few times after. And he, I’ve got a picture of him up there. His wife was an ATA pilot.
CB: Oh.
AP: She flew aircraft from the factories to the squadrons. Mainly Spitfires of course.
CB: Yeah.
AP: I don’t think women ever flew Lancasters. Not to my knowledge.
CB: A couple of them did.
AP: Pardon?
CB: A couple of them did.
AP: Did they?
CB: Yeah.
AP: Well I don’t know. I was told that it was most unlikely but you say they did.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: It was a big, complicated aircraft to fly — the old Lanc.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. And then your mid-upper. Who was that?
AP: A guy called Bradd. B R A D D. Bradd. What happened was after two raids our original mid-upper gunner went LMF. He couldn’t take it any more after two raids. And I was sent to pick him up. It’s mentioned in this book by John Nicholl. The names are — I’m sorry I should have done more research before you turned up shouldn’t I?
CB: It’s ok. We can look it up. So, what exactly happened to him?
AP: He just didn’t like it. He thought, he thought he wouldn’t survive. Well we all thought we wouldn’t survive really but there we go. We pressed on.
CB: Was he the only one person you met who was an LMF victim as it were?
AP: Yeah. The only one. The only one I met. And then when he left we had a guy come along called Bradd. Dennis Bradd. B R A D D. And when I’d done, when we’d done the tour he hadn’t quite finished his. He had to do some more ops to make up his thirty and unfortunately, he went down two or three trips after which was most unfortunate because he was a nice guy.
CB: And what about the rear gunner?
AP: Yes. He was, he was a bit older than most of us. He was in his late twenties. He survived but he’s passed on now of course.
CB: What was his name?
AP: [pause] Dear me. It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back to me. I just cannot remember at the moment.
CB: Ok. When you were doing your training what sort of people were there in South Africa? Did they tend to be only British people or did people come from other of the Commonwealth countries?
AP: No. The people that trained us were mainly South Africans. South African Air Force
CB: Trained you.
AP: Trained us. And they were very good. I always say that. I think we had a good training in South Africa and of course the weather was good. There was no hold ups with the weather. You could get on with things whereas the guys that trained in this country and Canada had problems with the weather sometimes.
CB: Yeah.
AP: But you see the air gunners joined us on the squadrons. They didn’t have any training really. They were mainly basic. Perhaps with a low education rate — without being unkind. As you know.
CB: Well their role was to run the guns.
AP: Run the guns. Yes.
CB: What do you see their role as being in the aircraft as a crew member? What was their main role?
AP: Well mainly to look out for fighters coming in at us.
CB: So, because they had guns their job was to defend the aircraft. Was that right? How often, in your experience, did they use their guns?
AP: Very seldom. Very seldom.
CB: Why was that?
AP: Well maybe we were lucky. I don’t know. But I think the rear gunner used his guns once and the same with the mid-upper chap that came along.
CB: The one who went LMF, it wasn’t a bad experience of a fighter attack that caused him —
AP: Not at all. No. Not at all. I always remember I had to, I had to go along to a — I was trying to think — it was in the Midlands somewhere. He was being, he was being held at a police station. I can’t remember why. But I had to sign for a live body and I’d never done that before. A live body of the gunner. He was quite a nice guy. He just couldn’t take it. in fact, on the way back we went in to Nottingham to a dance hall and I had a few beers with him, you know and then brought him back to camp and of course as soon as he got back to camp he was whisked, whisked into the guardroom and then they used to tear off the brevets and the sergeant’s stripes and they really went through it you know.
CB: Did they do that in public? On a parade?
AP: Yeah, I did see it happen. There was a place at Coventry where they did that. It was done on parade. It was very dreadful really what they did. In my opinion.
CB: So why did they do that?
AP: Just to set an example really. I mean, in the First World War of course they used to shoot them didn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
AP: Anybody that —
CB: Yeah
AP: At least they didn’t do that. No. You were pretty tough after that training. Well the gunners never had much of a training. I don’t know why he ever became an aircrew member really.
CB: How did he fit? Before he went LMF how did he fit in the crew? Was it fairly obvious that he was —
AP: Well we never had him. You see we never had the gunners for long. We did the basic training with Con Unit, OTUs and then the gunners only came along later on.
CB: So normally the gunners would join at the OTU on the Wellington. Wouldn’t they?
AP: Not they didn’t in the case with myself. No.
CB: Right. Ok.
AP: They joined us later.
CB: Right. At the —
AP: It was just the basic members.
CB: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
AP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AP: They joined at the Conversion Unit. Yes.
CB: Yeah. Right.
AP: Yes.
CB: And so, the engineer joined you though at the OTU. Oh no there was no engineer at the OTU because they didn’t —
AP: No. There was no engineer then. No.
CB: The Wellington didn’t have them.
AP: No. They came along at Con Unit. It was just pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. They were the main ones. And the wireless. They were the main ones who joined. Who were there.
CB: Right.
AP: From the word go.
CB: Now, you started off as an AC2. How did your promotion go and why?
AP: Well it was the time. You become a sergeant after, when you pass out. Then after a year you became a flight sergeant.
CB: After a year.
AP: After a year.
CB: Right.
AP: Then you got recommended. Certain of us got recommended for commissions, you see.
AP: Do you know what the basis — what was the basis of the decision for making people —
AP: I don’t know exactly. The CO. The group captain in charge really. No. I never quite know. I got one and the navigator got one and the rear gunner got one. We all got commissions.
CB: So, what was the rear gunner’s strengths that made him suitable?
AP: Do you know I don’t quite know. It was just the fact that he was over thirty by that time I suppose and he was a fairly senior bod and they decided to give him a commission. I can’t think of his name, you know. And I saw him a few times after the war because he lived up in North London somewhere. We had a few meetings together. It’s stupid the way names go isn’t it?
CB: It’ll come back to you later.
AP: It will.
CB: But did you, did you do many things together as a complete crew when you were on 630?
AP: Oh yes. We went out a lot together.
CB: What did you do?
AP: Our favourite pub was the Red Lion at Revesby which was about a five mile cycle ride which we did no trouble at all. And I told you we had this little lady, Pat, who took a shine to me. And she used to sing you know. She used to get up in the pub and sing. She was good like that.
CB: She was the WAAF?
AP: She was a WAAF.
CB: What did she do in the RAF?
AP: Well she was on the reception committees. When you came back she would help make you comfortable. Bring you cups of tea and things. Plenty of cigarettes everywhere which was crazy really but they did. And that’s what she did. They sort of picked the ones who were outgoing types of girls, you know. She was quite outgoing in that respect.
CB: So at the end of a raid how did you feel?
AP: Relieved. Relieved.
CB: So you got down. What was the process? The plane lands. Then what?
AP: Well we had the —
CB: You taxied,
AP: Debriefing of course.
CB: You taxied to dispersal.
AP: Oh yeah.
CB: And then —?
AP: Emptied the, emptied the aircraft out and then we had to be debriefed.
CB: Each one individually?
AP: No. We all sat as a crew with the debriefing officer and one of the girls would be with us. Give us tea and things like that. That’s how I met up with Pat really. Because she used to be doing that sort of work you see. And then we went out together to places like Revesby. It’s not far from — do you know Revesby?
CB: Yeah.
AP: The Red Lion there. It’s still there you know.
CB: Yes.
AP: Just the same.
CB: Yes.
AP: I often called in there when going that way to renew acquaintances. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. I used to think nothing of cycling five miles then for a drink
CB: And how —
AP: Beer wasn’t easy to get hold up. Decent beer.
CB: Did it run out regularly?
AP: Yeah. And there was one pub we went to they were so short of glasses we drank out of jam jars. I forget which pub it was but I think that was The Plough at East Kirkby. No. The Red Lion at East Kirkby. We did use that very often. That got so crowded. It was so near the ‘drome. We preferred to go out to Revesby.
CB: Right.
AP: We went to Mareham too. That wasn’t too far away.
CB: Now, we’ve talked about the aircrew. We’ve talked about your debriefing. How did the link go with the ground crew? How? Did you liaise with them much or —?
AP: Oh yes, we went out to drinks together but on the whole not too much. No. They didn’t seem to want to be too involved but we did have one or two nights out with them certainly. And during the moon spells you could afford to have drinks. You knew you wouldn’t be called on. The exception being Nuremberg when they did call us out with a full moon but apart from that normally the moon was a quiet period.
CB: Right. And the crew chief. What would he be? Rank.
AP: Corporal or sergeant.
CB: And what was their attitude to the aircraft?
AP: Oh, they looked after their own aircraft. My word they did. They were very proud of it. You know. Keep it serviceable. There were so many, you know, became [pause] not de-serviceable. What’s the word?
CB: A wreck.
AP: Not a wreck exactly but, you know, they had to do a lot of work on them. They kept ours — they kept us flying all the time. That was one good thing. I feel sorry for this present Lanc. They’ve had this engine fire, haven’t they?
CB: Yeah.
AP: And it seems it’s quite a major problem. The air frame’s been affected around the engine mounting.
CB: Oh, has it? Yes.
AP: Yes. So, I’m told. So how long it will before it flies again I do not know. At the same time the Panton is hoping to get Just Jane flying but whether they will or not I don’t know. They say it’s going to cost a lot of money to get the airframe right and to get a certificate of air worthiness. That’s the problem.
CB: Going back to the war experience what was your worst experience on a raid?
AP: Well I wouldn’t say Nuremberg although Nuremberg was bad. I wouldn’t say it was the worst one. I think the worst one was Mailly-le-Camp where we seemed to be buzzing around for ages waiting for things to happen.
CB: This is the Cheshire raid.
AP: Yeah. I don’t blame Cheshire at all. He was a good, he was a good chap. In fact, we did a Munich raid some time afterwards where he took off about two, he took off two hours after we did [laughs] and we flew down to North Italy and then we headed north for Munich and bombed Munich and Cheshire had moved in in the meantime and dropped his flares with a Mosquito. Yes. He was good like that and of course [pause] the Dambuster fellow. He went down in a Mosquito didn’t he?
CB: Gibson. Yes.
AP: Guy Gibson. Couldn’t think of the name for a minute. I hope you’ll pardon me forgetting names.
CB: That’s ok.
AP: As I say these things are affecting me a bit. These.
CB: Could you talk us through your situation as an air bomber because you’re the person looking at the flak coming up. So, at what — so could you talk us through the point the pilot hands over to you. Could you just talk us through what you did? What it was like. How you dealt with it.
AP: Well the air bomber, the air bomber or bomb aimer as some say — the official title is air bomber by the way. His job really was to take over when the bombing site was coming up and to guide the pilot to the markers. And we were told what marker. It was either red or green normally. And of course, we had to, we had to man the guns. I never fired the front guns but they were there if necessary. But we always used to say, ‘Left. Left. Right.’ ‘Left. Left,’ you had to say. You didn’t say left or right. It had to be, ‘Left left.’ Or right. That was one — so that sort of did away with any sort of errors you see. But as I say the bomb aimer saw everything going on more than anybody else. The poor old navigator — he didn’t see a thing. He was behind closed curtains. Probably just as well. He didn’t see a thing. The wireless operator too. But the bomb aimer was there to see everything.
CB: So, what were you actually seeing? Because the run in takes how long?
AP: Oh, it could take anything from thirty minutes to two or three minutes. We were flying, I’ll say one thing about the old Lanc you could get up to about twenty three, twenty four thousand feet and it seemed like ages going in, you know. With flak all around you. It always seemed you could never get through the flak. It always seemed there was a hole in the flak and you were in that hole, you know. Just marching along. We got hit once or twice but only minor stuff.
CB: So, when you’re on the run in the pilot is effectively saying, ‘Over to you.’ Is he?
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: You’re not actually controlling anything yourself but you’re telling him what to do.
AP: Oh no. He’s got the controls to guide the thing. We’re just saying either, ‘Left. Left,’ ‘Right,’ or so on. You know.
CB: And then —
AP: We had, of course, control of all the switch gear. You know, the bomb selector.
CB: Ok. So just talk us through the bomb selection because you had a wide range of ordnance on board so how did that work? There was a sequence.
AP: Well it was pretty much automatic really, you know. Our main bomb load used to be a four thousand pound cookie with incendiaries. And it was all automatic. Once you, once you got over the target you pressed the button and everything worked automatically. And the camera which was in the back of the aircraft which we didn’t like. That was phosphor bomb.
CB: So, there was a sequence that the bombs left.
AP: Yeah.
CB: What was the sequence?
AP: Well the cookie normally went first. The four thousand pounder. Followed by the incendiaries. We did have raids where we had fourteen one thousand pound bombs but normally on the mass bombing it was to cause fires which I didn’t go much on to be quite frank. But there again it was a, that was the way it was directed we should fight the war.
CB: Right. So, the cookie was non, it wasn’t aerodynamic. It was just a cylinder so —
AP: Like a big dustbin. Yeah.
CB: What did it do? It was a blast bomb.
AP: A blast bomb. Yeah. That blasted everything so the incendiaries would come along and set fire to the blasting but there were so many bombs being dropped I don’t think they made much difference really. And we were given a time to, we were given, different squadrons had different times to approach the target you see.
CB: Right.
AP: And the Pathfinders [pause] they would, you know, they would direct the bombers to what they thought was relevant at the time. Yeah.
CB: So, the Pathfinders were circling. Or the master bomber was circling. Giving instruction was he?
AP: They — I wouldn’t say they would. They used to go in first and mark the target but I don’t think they hung about. It wasn’t healthy to hang about.
CB: I meant the master bomber would stay and watch. Would he?
AP: In the mass raids — no. In the more selective raids like Munich and some of the other raids he’d be there all the time. But on the mass raids early on, the Berlins, it was just a question of the Pathfinders coming in, marking the target and then getting the hell out of it.
CB: So what heights were you normally, normally delivering your load?
AP: Twenty one, twenty three thousand. Yeah. Pretty high really. We were above the Halifaxes and Stirlings. I always felt sorry for the Stirlings. That’s why I quite liked meeting that friend of yours.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Because how he survived I do not know but he did didn’t he?
CB: Extraordinary.
AP: Did he do a full raid?
CB: He did. So I’ll cover that with you later. But the air bomber bit is interesting because we don’t necessarily have much detail on that and so that’s why I’m just asking you a bit more about it. And —
AP: Yeah. Well, as I say, it varied over the course of my time you see. First of all it was mass bombing, then more selective bombing and then pinpoint bombing as we approached D-day you see. The whole character of the thing was changing actually.
CB: So, when, when you did the pinpoint bombing. Was that with markers?
AP: No.
CB: ‘Cause a lot of it’s daylight isn’t it?
AP: No. No. Not daylight at all. No. No. We had to do it by map reading and —
CB: Ok.
AP: There were no markers then. No.
CB: No. ‘Cause we’re talking, for you we’re talking we’re talking pre-D-Day.
AP: On some day there were only two squadrons. Only twenty or thirty aircraft, you see.
CB: Yeah.
AP: That was, they were the interesting raids really. They were the raids I preferred because we knew then that we were bombing specific targets to the, for the good of the army. And we were trying to upset the German transport movements.
CB: Yeah. So, going back to you’ve released your bombs. You’ve got a camera and then there’s a flash that goes down.
AP: There’s a flash. Yeah.
CB: Does that, how does the timing work for that? Do you set it as the bomber aimer?
AP: That, again, is all automatic.
CB: So —
AP: We didn’t, we didn’t like the phosphor bombs because I mean, if they hang up they were deadly you know.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Did you have them at all?
CB: I know what you mean. Yeah.
AP: They were at the back of the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
AP: By the toilet.
CB: Right.
AP: But as I say they would drop automatically and then they were timed to go off to take the photos as the bomb, as the bomb exploded.
CB: Because the time of their firing would depend on how high you were.
AP: Yes. It was all, it was all done automatically you know by the, by the experts shall we say.
CB: So, what was the purpose of the camera?
AP: I frankly don’t know. It seemed to me to be a bit unnecessary but at least it proved you’d been there. There was a danger you see, I suppose that some crews may not have even have bombed the target. And that was proof you’d been there. Oh, I got some good aiming point photographs. I think that’s why they awarded me the old DFC. We got some good aiming point photographs.
CB: At what point did you receive the award of DFC?
AP: After the, after the tour. They analysed things you know and we’d had a good record of aiming point photographs.
CB: Who else in the crew?
AP: The pilot did. And myself. I thought Tom MacKay, the navigator should have had one because he was very good chap. In fact, he flew, when Gwen was ill he flew her out to Switzerland twice you know to try and get her better treatment but it didn’t work. She had Parkinson’s. But he knew somebody in Switzerland, in Geneva who he thought might help her because he lived out there for a time. And he arranged, he had his own, as I say he had his own aircraft and we flew her out there a couple of times but it wasn’t to be.
CB: When you came off operations you now went on to training other people you said.
AP: Yeah.
CB: What was that like in contrast?
AP: A jaywalk really. There wasn’t a lot to do really, you know. We had to find, we had to find time. We had to sort of find jobs to do really because although we were helping to train other people we were doing compass swings and things like that. We were back on Ansons and it all seemed a bit airy fairy after Lancasters but it had to be. You know, we were training. We were sending out the new crews coming along.
CB: Was there a sense of relief doing it or was it just boring?
AP: A bit of both. A bit of both.
CB: So, when you came to be demobbed how did you feel about that?
AP: Well I was demobbed, of course, from Palestine. And that’s when I mentioned I was flown in a Dakota back to Heathrow which was just a series of huts in those days. We had a good long run. They paid us for a good long holiday. Two or three months I think. Then I went on to Oxford, you see.
CB: How did you come to meet your future wife, Gwen?
AP: I was in the Royal Air Force then.
CB: What was she?
AP: She wasn’t in the air force. No. She wasn’t Royal Air Force. The other girl I had, that I knew, was Pat. She was with me at the Operational Training Unit but I’d finished by the time I went to North Wales.
CB: By the time you finished your tour did you feel short changed for not doing thirty or was there a sense of relief?
AP: Well it was a sense of relief I think. We were quite badly quite shot up on that. We were mine laying you see in [pause] we were mine laying in — what’s the name of the port.
CB: Brest.
AP: We were attacked by a JU88.
CB: And what height would you be flying for mine laying?
AP: Oh we were quite low. We were quite low. I’m trying to think what [pause] what was the first question you asked me?
CB: What? The sense of relief? I asked you earlier what your worst experience was.
AP: Well that was one of the worst. Yes. [pause] Kiel Bay. I couldn’t think of the word. Kiel Bay.
CB: Where’s that.
AP: We were laying mines in Kiel Bay.
CB: Where’s that? Oh, outside Kiel.
AP: Kiel. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Kiel Bay. I couldn’t think of the words for a minute. You see, I mean, despite the ops we had one or two occasions where we boomeranged. You know, something went wrong with the aircraft and we had to return. It happened to the guy who died a few weeks ago. The New Zealand, the New Zealand Dambuster fellow.
CB: Yeah.
AP: He had to, he had come back because he had a hit and his compass was put out of action. And we had one or two cases like that.
CB: Les Munro.
AP: Yes, I couldn’t think. Len Munro. Yeah.
CB: Les. Yeah.
AP: Les Munro I meant. I met him a few times.
CB: Did you?
AP: A nice guy he was.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Did you ever meet him?
CB: He was over recently. I never met him but he was.
AP: I met him at Aces High two or three times. He had his girlfriend with him. He’d lost his wife but he had a lady companion who was very pleasant. She used to help him but he was pretty active right to the end. Well, I didn’t see him at the end of course. As I say there was cases too when you would get all ready to go. All the build-up and everything and then it would be cancelled. All that sort of getting ready. Nearly all, not all day but you had to do a night flying test before where everybody went up and flew for about half an hour and tested everything and then you’d come back and then go to briefing. So that was all part of the game but those didn’t count.
CB: Was that a frustration?
AP: Frustration really. Yes. Having spent the whole afternoon or a bit longer getting ready and then to find it was cancelled. That happened a few times and that didn’t count.
CB: So, what was the atmosphere before you went on the raid amongst the crew?
AP: The atmosphere. It’s a job to pinpoint it really Chris. We were all a bit apprehensive I suppose really. A bit apprehensive. Is it recording? But some of the crews used to have a pee on to the — on to — what was it now? There were different ways people had to let off steam. We all had our little [pause] I had a little St Christopher I always took with me. Geoff, the pilot, had a scarf. And I remember one raid, we were ready to take off and he’d forgotten his scarf. Luckily, he had his motorbike with him and he shot off to the billets, got his scarf and came back. It made us a bit late but he was determined he wouldn’t fly without his scarf. We all had these little [pause] what’s the word? Keepsakes.
CB: Did everybody do that?
AP: Lucky charms.
CB: Yeah. Lucky charms. Did everybody?
AP: Yeah most had. I had a little St Christopher which I’ve lost now but I did have one and I always made sure I had it.
CB: And when the tour was over was there a feeling that you would get together at some stage afterwards or was there just an acceptance that you were being disbursed?
AP: There was just an acceptance. That’s the problem really. You were sort of lived together for six months. You were living together, you know and then you suddenly break up and everybody goes their own way. And we didn’t all get together afterwards. We tried. Geoff Probert, my skipper, he went to Hatfield and I never did see him. We tried to meet up once or twice and we never did. Then he went up to Sheffield and he died fairly young. ‘Cause he was older than the rest of us. So getting together was a problem. I did reach some of the guys afterwards but you see after the war you really had to forget all about it and I did for about five or six years. Going to Oxford you had to get your head down and get down to studies and you more or less forgot all about the war. It’s only now, in latter years, that we begin to think about it again.
CB: But did, what did you feel the general public’s attitude was to people who had been effectively on the front line? After the war.
AP: Well, as I say I didn’t really think too much about it then. I think people were quite sympathetic to what we had done. Some people thought we were having, having it too cushy. At least one thing — we came back to white sheets. We didn’t sleep in dirty, muddy trenches which I would have hated. We came back to a decent bed after a raid and we were looked after.
CB: Yeah.
AP: With our eggs and bacon.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Which no one else could get.
CB: No.
AP: That was a great relief to have eggs and bacon and that type of thing. So some people thought that aircrew and submarine people had been molly coddled but we had a fairly dangerous job to do.
CB: A final question then. You’ve touched on it already. How did you feel about what you were doing in actually aiming — effectively aiming the aircraft and dropping the bombs?
AP: How did I feel?
CB: Each time.
AP: I didn’t like the area bombing because you never quite knew where your bombs were landing. I was always a bit perturbed about that. I had that in my mind you know but we had a job to do. And they started the bombing first so we had to sort of — they bombed Coventry and London didn’t they? But as I say towards the end of the war with the bombing — the run up to D-day it was a different cup of tea really.
CB: Yeah. And was your bomb sight — what was that like?
AP: The Mk 14.
CB: Yeah. Were you happy with that or —?
AP: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Of course they’ve improved no end now. In fact, if you when you’ve got time I’ll take you to the Trenchard Museum at Halton where they’ve got some of the old Mk 14 bomb sights. You want to go to go there, you know.
CB: We will. The Americans claimed that their bomb sights were so much better for accuracy. That’s why I ask the question.
AP: I think ours was pretty good. We got some good aiming point photographs. The Americans may have been better because they did their daylight stuff didn’t they? Mark you they did catch a pasting didn’t they? On some of these daylight raids. Didn’t they?
CB: Absolutely.
AP: Yeah.
CB: Well, we’ve done really well Alan. Thank you so much. I’m going to stop the tape now and we’ll have —
AP: I’m sorry. I should have done genned up with this. There are things I forgot didn’t I?
[Recording paused]
CB: Hang on. Just as an extra then Alan. We talked about Pat and I wonder first of all when you went on a raid what was the reaction of the WAAFs as you set off?
AP: Well there was a great deal of cooperation. I think they felt that, you know, most of the crews knew a WAAF somewhere down the line and they were invariably at the end of the runway to wave us as we went off. Without them we’d have missed it. They weren’t there when we came back of course. They were all in the debriefing huts waiting for us to come back. But no, they cooperated. I think they realised what we were doing and I felt that their presence helped a heck of a lot.
CB: So, in terms of Pat she clearly was a major factor in your life then.
AP: During that time. Yes. During that time, she was. Helped to take off the stress off the bombing ‘cause we used to go for cycle rides and things together, you know and she’d come out drinking with us. And she used to sing. She had quite a good voice. I don’t know where she learned to sing but she used to get up and sing. She was a bit, sort of outgoing in that respect. There aren’t many girls who would get up in the pub and sing are there?
CB: Probably not. But how did this break up in time?
AP: What?
CB: This relationship you had with her.
AP: Well we didn’t — when I got posted away of course, I mean, I couldn’t keep up with meeting all the time and I suppose we did write for a time of course and gradually I suppose the letters got less and less and it just faded away but I often wonder what happened. Even now I often wonder if she’s alive still.
CB: In your experience with 630 Squadron Association are there any people who were ground crew personnel who have been members or did it tend only to be aircrew?
AP: It’s funny that you should say that. I met a, we had a meeting at Aces High with Bomber Command and there was a WAAF there who was a driver at East Kirkby. She lives now in Bournemouth and she was there with her son. I didn’t know her at the time but she told me she was on transport. You know they used to drive the crews out to the aircraft and she was doing that. Well, she’s older than me. She was ninety three I think she told me. So that’s one case but there aren’t many of the old WAAFs turn up.
CB: No.
AP: We do see — now who was, who was the inventor of the bouncing bomb, now.
CB: Barnes Wallis.
AP: Her —
CB: His daughter.
AP: His daughter comes along. You’ve met her have you? She often comes along with — oh [pause] the last remaining bomb aimer. I saw him the other day. His name is gone now. He was up at East Kirkby. Johnny Johnson. He’s written a book. The farmer’s boy he was, wasn’t he? Have you read the book?
CB: I haven’t. no. But he —
AP: Oh, I’ve got it. I haven’t read it. I gave it to my other son because he was a farmer. Johnny Johnson.
CB: Ok. That’s really good. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
CB: One more question now, Alan. People tend to have an affection not just for lucky charms but for aircraft so were you normally with the same plane? Or what was the situation?
AP: We were normally with the same plane. Yes. There were occasions of course when we didn’t have the same plane. But it was always nice to have the same plane. And LEY was ours. LEY.
CB: And if you flew in another one how did you feel?
AP: Oh, it didn’t really bother me too much but it was just nice to know you had your own aircraft.
CB: Because they tend to have specific characteristics.
AP: I suppose they do, really. Yes. Yeah.
CB: Ok. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
AP: Well there was a survey party had got lost in the Sahara and they asked for volunteers to go and find it. Well, they had a sort of point where they thought he was and we had to make for that and then we started to do a square search based on the visibility. And we found it and they waved to us and we radio’d back where they were. But that’s just one little thing we did and we had to volunteer for that. We had this note that these people were lost in the desert.
CB: Yeah. A practical humanitarian task.
AP: Well yeah. Yeah.
CB: Let me just take you back to that JU88 encounter because that could have been fatal.
AP: Oh easy. So easy.
CB: So what happened? What height were you etcetera and how did he find you? And —
AP: Well it just happened. We were sailing along and all of a sudden these bursts burst of cannon fire all around us. I mean the rear gunner should have seen him really but he never saw him and I think he was — he wasn’t underneath us. He was behind us. Normally the idea was to come up from the underside.
CB: Yeah.
AP: And fire in to the petrol tanks.
CB: Yes. Yeah. So the, so the gunner — he was coming from behind and the gunner didn’t see.
AP: Didn’t see him. No.
CB: What was the — in the dark this was.
AP: In the dark, oh yes.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, he starts firing so the shells are exploding is that right?
AP: Yeah.
CB: Then — then what happened?
AP: Well there weren’t many shells actually. In fact, you know, we thought he would come back because the plane had caught fire. Luckily it went out. And we honestly thought he would come back for another go but he didn’t. I think he thought he’d got us and that was it. And old Geoff, the pilot put it into a steep dive and started to corkscrew and we lost the JU88.
CB: So, the corkscrew might have been the solution.
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: But what happened to the strikes? Where were the strikes on the aircraft? On your plane.
AP: Well, as I say one was on the rear turret and the other side and one in the wing but apart from, it didn’t really do any sort of damage structurally. Although one caused a fire, you see. And one —
CB: Where was the fire?
AP: I’ve got a picture of this machine gun. The machine gun is all bent over where the shell hit it. And the rear gunner — he was jolly lucky to be alive. He really was.
CB: So, let me get this straight the shell hits the rear turret. In the gun.
AP: It hit the end of the gun. It was remarkable. It really was.
CB: And the gunner wasn’t injured.
AP: No. He wasn’t hurt. He was sort of knocked out, you know. He was semi, he was sort of, you know, the blast sort of knocked him out temporarily. He was sort of muttering away, you know, half in and half out but he came around and we still had the mines on board, you know. That was another thing. We didn’t jettison. We went on and dropped them afterwards ‘cause when he attacked we were still going in on to the target, you see. In to the bay, Kiel bay. And that was our twenty ninth raid. And I think the CO, Wing Commander [Dee?] saw we’d had enough. ‘Oh, you can stand down now,’ he said.
CB: After. After that. Yes. So, you dropped your mines successfully.
AP: Yeah, we dropped the mines.
CB: What height would you drop a mines from? ‘Cause you can’t do it from height ‘cause it’ll break.
AP: No. You can’t do it from height. No.
CB: So what height were you dropping?
AP: I think we must have been about twelve thousand feet. Something like that. Yeah. A long time ago now. You tend to forget these things don’t you?
CB: Sure. Yeah. Thanks.
Dublin Core
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APayneAJ150811
Title
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Interview with Alan Payne
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:21:03 audio recording
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Pending review
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-08-11
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Payne was born in Wendover, Buckinghamshire. He volunteered for aircrew with the Royal Air Force and after initial training was sent to South Africa where he trained as an observer. When he returned to the UK, he was allocated the role of bomb aimer and after joining a crew he was posted to 630 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby. His first operation was to Berlin. He describes the operation to Mailly-le-Camp as one of his worst experiences with Bomber Command. Returning from an operation on Nuremberg his aircraft was attacked by an Me 109 and on their last operation mine laying off Kiel they were attacked by a Ju 88. After his tour Alan became an instructor before being posted to Palestine. When he was demobbed he undertook training at Oxford University to become an architect.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
South African Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
South Africa
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Kiel
Temporal Coverage
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1944-05-03
1944-05-04
Contributor
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Julie Williams
630 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 109
military living conditions
mine laying
Nissen hut
observer
RAF Dumfries
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Torquay
RAF Turweston
RAF Winthorpe
Scarecrow
superstition
target photograph
training
Wellington
Window
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/293/3448/PManningL1501.1.jpg
a932014196985b7e102fd8d9c5f40876
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/293/3448/AManningL150402.1.mp3
e116fe794ee51b51bca07a58e1108044
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Manning, Len
Leonard Manning
Len Manning
L Manning
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. One oral history interview with Sergeant Leonard "Len" Manning (1892872 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as an air gunner with 57 squadron before being shot down.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Len Manning and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Manning
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SB: Okay, so, let’s start off with a, a very brief introduction, for my own benefit, it’s, um, it’s the 2nd of April, 2015, and this is Sheila Bib speaking with Leonard Manning. [Pause] So, I understand from our talk yesterday, be it a brief one, you were born in Paddington -
LM: Yes
SB: But basically brought up in Walthamstow.
LM: Yeah, yeah.
SB: Okay, perhaps to start off then, could you just tell me a little bit about your family, and living in Walthamstow and life before the war?
LM: Um, we had [? unclear] pretty standard life, I mean w- there was nothing special the family [?] my dad was an engineer, and um, mum used to do odd jobs around, and I went to one of the local schools [pause] didn’t get very far there because I failed the eleven plus, and then didn’t get a chance to do any more because the war started and [pause] I went to school until I was fifteen but some of that was up in Norfolk ‘cause we were evacuated - in 1938 I think it was, just before the war - up to Windham in Norfolk, and we stayed up there, as a number of people did, while it was – they thought things were gonna happen and they didn’t so [laughing] we all came back, and then later on it started again so [laughing] we went back up to Norfolk and I stayed up there until we came back. After I left school and started working uh, at, at a wood woodwork factory. I was a wood machinist, all like wood turning [? Unclear] that sort of thing, until I was called up, and I was called up at seventeen and a half, and always having wanted to get into the RAF I joined the Air Cadets in 1938 - which was the Air Defence Cadet Core in those days, it changed after the RAF took it over it became the ATC, and then you had to belong to that if you wanted to be into Air Crew, so obviously I joined that, and, um, when we moved up to [pause] Windham in Norfolk I, I did work up there for a time in a woodworking factory, but I did start a squadron of the ATC up there, because they hadn’t got one, and we started that, and, as I say, we came back and I worked for a time until I, I was eventually called up, and, [laughing] they said, asked the usual questions ‘what would you like to do?’ and like all the other lads ‘I wanna be a fighter pilot’ [laughs]. So he said ‘well, if you want to be a fighter pilot we’ll send you home on two years deferred service and then we’ll call you up and send you to Canada’, so I said ‘I don’t want that’ [laughing] so he said ‘why not?’ I said ‘all my friends are gone, I’ve got no one around me at the moment so I want to go, what can I do?’ so they said ‘well if you volunteer for air gunner we’ll take you in in a fortnight’s time’ so, that’s what I did, idiot [laughs]. And, it went off there – couple a weeks’ time I was called up and sent to Regent’s Park, in the blocks of flats opposite the zoo, where we were kitted out, and did a lot of drill and inducted into the rules and regulations of the Air Force, and then having got that sorted out they then sent me up to Bridlington, which was initial training area, where we did lots [emphasis] more drill, lots more aircraft recognition, which we did all the way through – you never, never missed aircraft recognition [laughing] no matter what else you had, you always had that. And we did clay pigeon shooting on the beach up there which was quite something – the weekends all the locals used to come out and watch us and cheer and clap if we hit anything, if [emphasis] [laughs]. And they said one day ‘right, it w- today will be the day you’ll fire a machine gun’, so we said ‘ooh that’s a good’ – so they took us up onto Flamborough Head, and sitting up on the cliff was, um, a Browning machine gun on a tripod, pointing out to sea, and an amourer sitting there with a box of ammunition, and we lined up, and, as we- when it was our turn, the armourer gave us a, a belt of am- ammunition, five round [laughs], which we had to put into the breach – far in, ‘cause didn’t last a second did it [laughing] it was a real waste of space. And that was that, so, having got all the initial training over was then sent to [pause] Bridgenorth, which was elementary gunnery school, was there for six weeks, doing all the normal gunnery things and hydraulics and what have you, and then having finished the course there we sent to number one gunnery school, which was in Pembrey in South Wales, and, um – where we started flying, that was where we first started, and the pilots, who were piloting the planes for us, were all ex Battle of Britain [pause] pilots so that, that, they were a bit, bit lunatic [laughing]. They tried, I think they, they were trying to frighten the daylights out of us, which they did [laughs].
SB: What year was this?
LM: That, um, that would have been forty [pause] forty-three I think [pause] yeah. And we did all sorts of things there, dingy drill, firing machine guns into the see at, at targets and firing on drogues that were towed by aircraft [pause] and all the other stuff that air gunner had to do. And having passed out there, was another six weeks training, we got our wings and became sergeant straight away, and they sent us off to [pause] OTU, which was Operational Training Unit, which I think was Silverstone, where we flew Wellingtons. We picked up our crew there and it’s true what they say, they put us all in a hangar, mixed us all up, ‘sort your crew out yourself’ and you went, just went round them [laughing] it was, it was hit and miss really ‘cause you, you didn’t know them from Adam and yet you saying to somebody, you know, ‘do you want an air gunner’ or [laughs] ‘I want a pilot’ and that was it, and you picked your crew, and that was it, you stuck it. The only one you didn’t have was the flight engineer because the Wellingtons were, weren’t four-engine so they didn’t have e- enough instruments there for a flight engineer. So we flew cross countries there and did fighter affiliation battles with Spitfires, and [pause] having done that – um, where did we go to from there? [pause] – yes went to Swinderby which was where we transferred to four engines – they had Stirlings up there, terrible old things they were, and got used to flying four engines, and we were flying out, doing circuits and bumps [?] one night at Coningsby – when they were out on operations we used to do, do circuits and bumps while they were on ops – and we landed on the main runway and our, our [laughing] undercarriage collapsed [laughs] right in the middle of the intersection of the main runway so they couldn’t use any of the runways, so they weren’t very happy with us because they hadn’t got the equipment to move it because the Stirling is a lot bigger aircraft than the Lancaster so they obviously hadn’t got the equipment to shift it so they had to wait until the next day to move it. And from there we went to, what they called? Lanc conversion unit where they converted some to Lancasters, and we had a few weeks there, that was at Silestone [pause] and that wasn’t very long but we got used to the, we picked up the, our flight engineer when we started flying Stirlings so we’d now got a full crew. And from there we were sent to a squadron, which was East Kirby, and we were there for a few weeks doing circuits and bumps and the usual cross countries and gunnery exercises until our first operation, which was [unclear, possibly Rouergue] in the South of France. Well, we, flew that one and [pause] it was quite spectacular because we hadn’t seen anything like this before and we flew over- flew into the target and it was all lit up, flares were being dropped and bombs were going down and it was all, all happening down there, but nothing was happening above [emphasis] it so we had quite a, an, an easy flight so we thought ‘if this is gonna be it [laughing] it’s a piece of cake’, how wrong we were [laughing]. And the next flight we did was daylight raid on Cannes when they were having problems getting the Canadians out of there so they sent a thousand bombers over in daylight, and that was unusual, and you know, it was quite unusual to fly along and see all of the other aircraft because at night you didn’t see them. It made you think [laughing] how close they were [emphasis] to you and how many there were there. And we flew in there and, um, dropped our bombs, and we, when we turned ‘round I had a good view of the target because it was smoke and debris flying out to about five hun- five thousand feet – was quite spectacular. But when we got back, we were told we were on again that night! So we thought [laughing] ‘we don’t like this’. So, anyway, we had a sleep, and some food, and [pause] then we were briefed for a raid on [pause] [unclear] in Northern France which was a railway goods yard, and we took off for that [pause] I suppose that would have been about [pause] ten o clock, and as we crossed the Dutch coast we got coned by searchlights, which isn’t very good. And having dived and turned and done all the evasion bits we were fortunate that we managed to get out. But having done that we got out of the bomber stream, which was our defence against the German radar, because if you got out of the bomber stream they could pick you up individually on radar which they couldn’t do when you were in the bomber stream. So, anyway, we altered course for the target again, and a little, little while later there was a massive explosion in the, our port wing, and immediately flames started coming past the tu- my rear turret which stopped to wo- stopped working immediately, because the hydraulic motors that drove the turret were operated from, from the port engine. So that was that. So I had to wind the turret round by hand to get the doors lined up with the fuselage, and climb out into the fuselage, which was really burning then, it w- when I looked up the fuselage it was just like looking up the mouth of a blow lamp. It was frightening it really was. And my s- parachute, which was stowed in the fuselage, was smouldering, that was already going, so I went and got it and tried to get it on my, the two hooks on my [pause, laughs] parachute harness, but as the plane was going down I could only get it on one, couldn’t get it on the other. And my rear g- my mid upper gunner, he got out of his turret, I saw him get out, he came down towards me and went out the door which was down towards the turret, and he went, and, um, I didn’t struggle any more with the parachute because I thought ‘if I hang about here I’m not, I’m not gonna make it’ so, I just jumped out and into the night, just jumped [emphasis]. Hit my head on the tail plane [laughs] which wasn’t very good. You weren’t supposed to do that, you were supposed to roll out you see? You got time to do all this, you take your helmet off and you sit down and you roll out – no way [laughs]. So, anyway, I’m counting down and I thought, I don’t know, I looked up and I saw the thing was smouldering away there and I thought ‘I hope I get down before this thing catches fire and drops me off’. But anyway, on the way down I felt s- I was leaning to one side and I felt something brush my face, I put my hand up and it was the intercom cord on my helmet which was caught up in the parachute which was fortunate because I hung on that, and that probably took some of the weight off the para- off the harness that was burning, and [coughs] being that it was night I was thinking well we- where am I gonna land, am I gonna land in a tree or [laughing] in a pond or somewhere nasty. In fact I landed in the middle of a field flat on my back, and as soon as the parachute dropped around me it, it burst into flame, so I jumped on that and put it out and stuffed it in a hedge. And by this time I was badly burned on my face and all down my arms, and I thought ‘well let’s see if I can find a lane’, which I did, came out on a lane and I thought ‘if I head South, I might meet up with some troops eventually’ and that’s what I did. And I walked for about, I suppose eight miles, and I was really [emphasis] in pain then and I could feel this running down my face, I thought I was bleeding to death – of course it wasn’t, it was the burns, and as I say I collapsed on this farmer’s doorstep and they must have heard me moaning and came out, took me in, and I was fortunate because they were members of the resistance. So they took me in and put me to bed, and, um, the following day they got a doctor to me - uh, a, one of the resistance people – came and sorted my burns out, and moved me to another house in the same village. And because of course the Germans started looking for me then, they were hunting all over the place, so they, they moved me from one house to the other, and eventually they decided that enough was enough and that, they moved me out of that village and they sent, sent a resistance bloke to take me to the next house, and [pause] he came and his code name was Lulu [laughs]. And off we went through the woods and we got to a stage where he suddenly said to me ‘I’m lost’ [laughing] [unclear] good thing for a guide. So anyway he said ‘I’m going, I’m going to that house to s- see if I can find directions’, and he stuffed a Luger pistol in my hand, sat me in the hedge and said ‘If, if I get into trouble don’t ask any questions just shoot’. Well he came back and he, he, he hadn’t had any trouble, and off we went, and we finished up in a tiny little village called Latretoise, and um, to a little café. Well when I say café all it was, was a room in a house although they had, not only had the café they also had a small hotel on the other side of the courtyard which the Germans used to use when they came into the village, and it was run by two elderly ladies. I think the youngest one was, when I was there I think she was fifty-seven then, how old her mum was I don’t know. But I mean for two old ladies to, you know, take in somebody like me and risk their lives, if they, if they’d have been caught they’d of shot me and them no, no argument. So, anyway, they – oh they, in the meantime, before they moved me up there, they, they sent um, a resistance man to interrogate me to make sure I wasn’t a German because Germans were dropping people over there to get in with the resistance to find out what was going on. So anyway I’d got all over that and [pause] anyway these these two old ladies they couldn’t speak English and I couldn’t speak French so there was a lot of arm waving and shouting. And [pause] they gave me a bed in the hotel across the yard and I used to have my meals in the- behind the café, in the room there, and [pause] I lived with the family, you know, as w- as one of the family. But there were three other people there, men there, who were hiding from the Germans, the Germans wanted them for forced labour in Germany and they weren’t gonna go so they went into hiding, and we used to all have our meals together, and there was also a young lady that used to come in to see us, brought us cigarettes and money, and she was about the same age as me ‘cause I was nineteen then, and she was a forger, she used to forge papers, she was brilliant she really was. And, um, anyway we had one or two nasty scrapes there [pause] they came, somebody came into the café one day and said that [pause] German tanks were coming towards the village so that, when anything happened like that I, they used to put me upstairs in the ladies’ bedroom, and I’d stay there until the Germans went, and anyway the following morning I got up and looked out the bedroom window and there’s all these German tanks [laughing] lined up in the courtyard, Germans strutting around I thought ‘here we go’, and um [pause] that was quite nerve wracking because we didn’t know when they, if they were gonna come into the café and come up stairs and you know find me, but they didn’t, and the following day they moved out so things got back to normal. There was a big orchard behind the hotel where I used to be able to go in and walk about, play about, and, um- but I wasn’t allowed in the café itself, because you know, you never know when the Germans were going to be in there. And another time we were sitting in the back room – I think there were five of us, having our evening meal – and the Germans were in the village and they came into the café and that that was alright because normally they didn’t used to come into the back of the café so we thought we’d be alright, and anyway, Madame Beaugart [?] came back to get some change, and this German followed her out, followed her back, [laughs] stood in the doorway, and he looked all round and I thought ‘this is it, we been caught’, but um she gave him his money, just turned round and walked out and that was that so that was a bit of a relief. But I could wander about, I could get out into the village, not very far but I was told not be about when the postman was about because he was suspected of being a collaborator. So we carried on like that, and [pause] one day, not thinking, I thought the Germans had gone and I walked into the café and there were two German stranglers sitting there having drinks. Anyway, Madame Beaugart [?] she, she realised what had happened she started beating me about the head with a, with a dish cloth ‘get back to work!’ [laughs]. And beat me out and I went out and we got away with that one. But I think that was the last time we saw the Germans because the next day I think, the, a couple of resistance lads came into the village on a German motorcycle and sidecar which they’d taken off the Germans [laughs] somewhere, and they said that the Americans were on their way to the village and were setting up a field hospital in one of the fields outside the village. So the next day I went down and found an officer who said he’d take me into Paris [pause] in a couple of days’ time, where they’d set up a reception centre for people like myself ‘cause there was thousands of us, floating about in France. So they set up this hotel in Paris, a Hotel Maurice, which had been the headquarters of the Gestapo, and he said he’d take me there in a couple of days’ time so I went back, they gave me lots of tinned fruit and coffee and stuff as, as they always did, for my friends in the village who were very grateful for that, and the following night there was a massive [emphasis] party, there really was. And all the good wines came out and it went on nearly all night, and the following day I said goodbye to them, went back to the Americans, and he took me into Paris in a jeep to the Hotel Maurice where we stayed, I think, for a couple of days, and um, we did roam about Paris a little bit but it was quite dangerous because the resistance were rounding up all the people that had been collaborating and- were shootings going on in cafés it wasn’t very safe. And, the- they then flew me back to Hendon, where I was interviewed by MI5 and they took any guns or knives you had on y- they took them off you and interviewed you to make sure you were, you were who you said you were [laughing]. And having got over MI5 they then took me to Hotel Maurice, um, in London, where I was interrogated by bomber intelligence, who wanted to know what I’d done with their Lancaster [laughs]. Having got over that, they- we sent telegrams home, and they said ‘right, you can go home on leave’, and the only identification was a piece of paper, a scrap of paper about three inches by two inches, type written, ‘this is to certify this is Len Manning’ and that was it, nothing else. So anyway, having sent the telegram, I went home, and of course living in London I got home before the telegram obviously, and I always remember I walked into our road, and one of the neighbours was coming down pushing a wheelbarrow, he was going over to his allotment, and he looked up and he saw me [background noises] and he thought he’d seen a, seen a ghost, and he ran back up the road to my parents, and then all hell let loose, they all came out because they hadn’t heard from me for three months. So, that was that. I went backwards and forwards to the RAF hospital, I think it was at the Middlesex Hospital, for medicals and eventually I was given [unclear – perhaps ‘no on sick leave’] and medically discharged, and that was that.
SB: What a fascinating story.
LM: I’m glad you enjoyed it.
SB: Yeah, yeah. Can I just go back over a few –
LM: Yeah [emphasis] sure.
SB: a few bits and perhaps, clarify – um [pause] going back before you said you were in the A- ATC because you wanted to [pause] fly and -
LM: Yeah
SB: So on, um, [pause] what were your feelings, you know, you said you were sent up to Norfolk in thirty-eight because you said they thought something was gonna happen, how did you feel were you eager for this, or –
LM: Oh yeah, I was keen for it, yeah. Always been interested in aeroplanes and things like that so obviously I was keen to get in the ATC and do some of the training.
SB: And then when nothing happened in thirty-eight and you were all sent back again
LM: [laughs] yeah
SB: Frustrated, or-?
LM: Yeah I was frustrated, yeah, yeah.
SB: Um, did you have any brothers or sisters who fought.
LM: I had a brother, yes, he eventually joined the RAF. He was [pause] an aircraft fitter. He used to repair the fuselages, do repairs and stuff like that. He finished up down in Saigon I think it was [pause] and eventually he was discharged and, but while he was in, there, East there, he contracted TB. And you know what they used to do then was then they carve half your ribs out, so he didn’t have a very good time, and [pause] dad was in the, at that time when I came out he was in, that time he was in the control commission in Germany. He had the equivalent rank of a major, and he was looking after again the transport going in Hamburg. Mum was in the Land Army, so we all did our bit [laughs].
SB: Yeah, yeah. And had your dad fought in the First World War?
LM: Yeah he was in the First World War yeah and he wasn’t in the Second World War obviously, he was too old and I think he was in a reserved occupation anyway, being an engineer. [coughs]
SB: So [pause] y- your parents, well, your dad had been in the Army, your mum was Land Army, how did they feel about you boys going to the Air Force?
LM: Um, I can’t remember them ever, ever saying anything about it really, I can’t remember their, their attitude to it, not really, no.
SB: Ok. So, after the war, what happened then?
LM: I was registered disabled for a time, which meant that I could – most companies had to take a certain number of disabled people so it meant that I could get a job fairly easily, and a light job anyway. And I found a job in a plastics company, looking after their duplicating and printing office, which was quite good, and being nosey I used to get down into the factory and find out what was going on and what how they did this, that and the other, and eventually I got out onto the technical side, and spent the rest of my life playing about with plastics, in various stages. And I didn’t have any qualifications, because at that time while I should have been studying I couldn’t, and all my knowledge was picked up, actually on the shop floor, practically. And I finished up as a Works Manager of plastics company Wood Green, which eventually went bust,
SB: So, how do you think your experience during the war affected life afterwards?
LM: [pause] I don’t think it did really. [pause] No really no. But when I came out of the war – not when I came out, a long time afterwards, when I got to a stage where – and I had two daughters, by the way – and, when they were off hand and we wanted something to do and I joined the RAF Association and became their Welfare Officer, and their Chairman. I was Welfare Officer in London for fifteen years I think [clears throat], ‘cause when I moved up here, I joined the RAF Association again and straight away the had me awarded a Welfare Officer so that was it.
SB: So, it has impacted you in some ways, but just, what you, doing for hobby or [unclear]
LM: Yeah, that’s right.
SB: Yeah, um, can I just, o- over some of the place names, obviously this is going to be typed up, could you just clarify the spelling of some of them, so that –
LM: Um
SB: The village you stayed at in France
LM: Latretiose, which is capital L-a-t-r-e-t-i-o-s-e. Latretoise.
SB: Right, okay, and then the hotel in Paris –
LM: Hotel Maurice
SB: Is that -
LM: M-a-u
SB: r-i-c-e?
LM: Yeah
SB: Okay, and then in South Wales you were at Pembrey?
LM: Pembrey yup.
SB: Which is P-e-m
LM: P-e-m-b-r-e-y I think it was.
SB: b-r-e-y. Okay, yeah, I think that was it. Just ones which could be slightly confusing when we’re writing it up.
LM: We know [unclear] – we know it’s [laughs]
SB: Yeah, yeah, but those I know so that’s not, that’s not a problem, but those were just three which I thought ‘I’d better check that spelling’. Right, so [pause] let’s get back to the time when you were actually in France. How frustrating was it to be [pause]
LM: Stuck there? It was, it was frustrating because at that time, um, obviously it was after D-Day and the Germans were on the retreat, which meant that they were guarding all the bridges and main roads so they could get back easily which meant that it was difficult for us to move around so that’s the reason I, I stayed in the café for three months. Because they wouldn’t move me any further away. Although I did get taken out one, one time, a chap turned up in a car [emphasis] I couldn’t believe it, and he took me to a ch- a big chateaux, somewhere, don’t know where it was, and they obviously didn’t like giving you names, but he had a big library there and he had a lot of English books and he lent me some English books which I took back with me, but when I came back he wrote to me because he was, evidently, he was the Chief of the, one of the segments of the resistance, and he came over to be interviewed by the BBC and I went up to Bush House to see him when he was being interviewed, which was quite interesting. But [pause] I didn’t go back to – you see there’s two places involved here I don’t think I told you this, where the bomber crashed was Basvelle [?] and that is not a ‘ville’ it’s ‘velle’ – I have this argument with [unclear] ‘it must be ‘I’!’ [laughs].
SB: Bas-
LM: -velle.
SB: Ok, yup.
LM: And the other place was Latretoise so there’s the two different things. And [pause] fifty years afterwards I hadn’t heard a- um, mum used to write to [pause] the, the girl that [pause] used to bring us cigarettes and stuff – Madeline her name was, and [pause] so, they kept in touch for a while but then it all petered out. And then fifty years afterwards, I was reading the Air Mail, which was RAF Association’s magazine, and one of the adverts was for anybody that flew in a certain Lancaster get in touch with these people in Basvelle. So I wrote to them, I didn’t know what they were after, and they wrote back and said they wanted to have a memorial service over there, and they’d like me and any others, members of the crew to [pause] attend, which I did. But they went to an awful lot of trouble to find that the rest of the crew – because amazingly I had some addresses, of the [pause] relatives of the crew members, which I was able to give them, and amazingly, quite a number of them had moved on, the, I think it was the Bomb Aimer, he had an address up in Blackpool, and he, they were still [emphasis] there. Couldn’t believe it. Fifty years after the war and they were still there. Unbelievable.
SB: Quite incredible.
LM: Anyway, his parents were still there but he wasn’t, he’d been, ‘cause he, um, I didn’t, I didn’t tell you this, when the bomber crashed, four of the crew went down with the plane, and three of us got out, the Gunner who I said I saw jump out before me, he had a very similar experience to me, he got in touch with, eventually with – funnily enough the first house he went to they wouldn’t have anything to do with him, the woman said ‘no I’m sorry, I can’t take you, I daren’t do it’, and she gave him another address, I the next village, and he went there and they, they took him in. But the amazing thing is the house that he went to at first was the house that the actual Mayor, there now, lives [laughs]. And the navigator, who also got out, which I can’t make out why, I never could, because all the others around him was killed, but he got out somehow or other, but anyway he landed and he was the only one in the crew who really knew who we were, being a navigator. Hopefully [emphasis] he knew where he was [laughs]. Anyway, he wandered off, and I think he spent a couple of days [pause] rummaging around and keeping out of the way, and begging food from various farms, but funnily enough he didn’t get taken in, and he came to a river, which he knew would eventually lead him into Paris, and he started wandering along there and walked into a German [unclear] battery [laughs] he got caught. So he spent the rest of the war as a Prisoner of War. And the [pause] what a, oh yeah the Flight Engineer, he was found some way away from the others with his parachute unopen beside him, so whether he was blown out or panicked and didn’t pull the red cord we don’t know, but he was found quite some way away. But it was his relations that were still living in the same house, fifty years on. And by the side of him they found a silver Florin which they gave to his, I think it was his, his sister, who I’d met, Joan, who I’d met up with – I’d met up with him several times, but eventually they died, well they’ve all died now, I’m the only one left. [Pause] and I think that’s about it. The four of them are buried at, in, in Basvelle, and that’s where we go every five years, in fact we were there last year, and, for a small village, I mean the, the, the Basvelle was a village, I should, I should think that it’s probably fifteen, twenty houses. But thousands [emphasis] of people turn out, it’s unbelievable. I can show you [gets up].
SB: Please.
[Background noises]
LM: [unclear] that’s the Len book. [laughs] Now how often do you get a book specially for you? And what she’s done she’s put together the whole story of our visits over there, and [pause] she’s really thorough, she’s really good, a real good organiser.
SB: That’s fascinating.
LM: Are you still recording?
SB: That alright? [laughs]
LM: [laughs] yeah, I gotta watch what I say [laughs].
SB: This is lovely.
LM: It must have cost them a fortune.
SB: Yeah
LM: Because she, I think she had six of those – she had one done for each member of the crew, with just their story, and there you are, there’s some of the crowds. And I mean, look at the standards. I turned up outside the Town Hall one, one day and there were fifty standards, lined up outside there, couldn’t believe it.
SB: Did they manage, well, when they, located you were any of the others still alive at that point and able to go to Basvelle?
LM: Yeah the Navigator, he was still around, but he was the only one, but he didn’t turn up at the first couple anyway. And I don’t know why. Yes they, they spent an awful lot of money, that village, on things like this, I mean they have a, a meal there for probably two hundred people. Guests and Mayors from all the villages around. You know they did one for each of my daughters, and my granddaughter.
SB: ‘Tis a beautiful record.
LM: ‘Tis int’it.
SB: I’ve never seen one like this.
LM: No. And the other thing is that they’re always giving me medals. Can’t get any medals over here but over there you can get medals every time I turn up [laughing]. The latest one, is that one in the frame there. [background noises] It’s very heavy. It’s like the old desk thing. But that’s a silhouette of my face, as I am now, and then w- as I w- was, and then the Lancaster. I mean that’s a one-off, must have cost a fortune.
SB: Yeah! Absolutely. Heavens. Well [unclear]
LM: Yeah I did that because I thought ‘well what do I do with it’, you can’t leave it lying about and you don’t want to stick it in a drawer, so.
SB: You make the point there, can’t get medals over here nut you get them there. How did you feel about that?
LM: Very annoyed. Because I did two or three campaigns for the Bomber Command, medal, which we didn’t get, we got a bar, to our other medals, but we didn’t get the, didn’t get a medal anyway. But they’re still fighting for it, I mean I, I, I got an award for what I did.
[background noises]
SB: [unclear] try and get the medals?
LM: Yeah, for that and the things I do with the school kids as well.
SB: Yeah. Yeah some recognition but –
LM: Yeah when I got, when we got, I’ve actually got the bar, they refused me three times [laughs], when I eventually got it, I rang Radio Suffolk to tell them that I’d got it because they’d been helping me with it, and somebody came on and said that ‘well how did you get your bar? Was it presented?’ I said ‘no, it came through the post’ they said that’s disgusting [emphasis]’. The next thing I knew the Mayor of Sudbury rang up and said, ‘Len, be ready tomorrow at ten o clock, I’m taking you up to Ipswich Town Hall where the Mayor or Ipswich will present you with your bar’ [laughs] we got it. But so anyway he picked me up and we went up to Ipswich, and there was the Mayor of Ipswich there, and the, um, Mark Murphy from Radio Suffolk was there, the press was there, and we were in the Mayor’s parlour, we had tea and they got all the silver out [laughs] you know, it was quite something, and so that was presented there. But that, that was presented by the, that award was presented by Mark Murphy from Radio Suffolk, but there was some, some people there and it was, you know, it was really something to be there w- in among that award. I mean that was a special award, I, I, the others, there were three of each, for each type of award they were, they were doing, there were firemen there, there were the police there, there was a little girl there that been in a fire and got, all her face was burnt away, terrible. And it was a real honour to be there it really was, but they really laid it, laid it on.
SB: So, so you personally have had recognition but a lot of them presumably haven’t.
LM: Yeah, that’s right they haven’t. But the other thing is that every year, and in fact I’m off at the end of this month to Holland, they invite Air Gunner, ex-Air Gunners over there, to, they been doing it for years, it’s only Air Gunners, funnily enough, and, to a town called Dronton, which is one of the towns that was built on reclaimed land from the Zuiderzee [?], and they tell you when you standing in the square, beautiful square, if you’d have been there fifty years ago you’d be six foot under water [laughs]. I mean it’s as new as that, it’s amazing, it really is. But I’ve had I think, four medals from Holland.
SB: At least your efforts aren’t totally unrecognised [laughs]
LM: [Laughs] no it’s amazing.
SB: Well I’m glad something came out of it, but this is a remarkable piece –
LM: That’s something else, isn’t it?
SB: That, that is, yeah, really remarkable. Ok, I think that probably covers –
LM: Yeah well if you think of anything else you can always give me a ring.
SB: Yeah, yeah, exactly, so I’ll stop recording.
LM: Oh sorry would you like a cup of tea or coffee?
SB: I’m fine, thank you very much.
LM: Sure?
SB: Yeah, absolutely. [background noises] I’ll stop recording, at this point.
LM: It was my ninetieth birthday in, in January, hence all these planes. Planes on cakes, I finished up near three birthday cakes [laughs].
SB: And lots of planes [laughs].
LM: There’s even that orange one from my great-granddaughter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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AManningL150402
Title
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Interview with Len Manning
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
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00:51:15 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Sheila Bibb
Date
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2015-04-02
Description
An account of the resource
Len Manning grew up in London and worked in a factory before he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He flew operations with 57 Squadron before being shot down over France. He spent three months living with supporters of the Resistance in a small French village and hiding from the Germans while he recovered from his injuries.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Christina Brown
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
bombing
crewing up
evading
fear
final resting place
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Swinderby
Resistance
shot down
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner