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Title
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Symonds, Kenneth Walter Prowse
K W P Symonds
Date
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2021-08-17
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Symonds, KWP
Description
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An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Kenneth Symonds (b. 1924, 1833880 Royal Air Force). He flew served as a flight engineer with 624, 49, 201 and 53 Squadrons.
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Transcription
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RP: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln. The interviewer is Rod Pickles. The interviewee is Ken Symonds. Also present is a friend of Mr Symond’s, Deborah Follett. The interview is taking place on the 17th of August 2021 at Mr Symond’s home near Dorchester in Dorset. Good afternoon, Mr Symonds. May I call you Ken?
KS: Indeed yes.
RP: I think we’d probably like to start the way we usually start these if you could tell us a bit about where you were born and your childhood.
KS: I was, I was born in Weymouth in 1924. My father in fact was a tent maker working for a firm called [Marsham Wright] and in those days of course most of the sewing was done by hand not by a big machine. We moved. I was born in my aunt’s house in Weymouth but after a short while we moved into our own house and the family my mother, father and myself into a house at Kitchener Road which is in a large council estate in Weymouth and we stayed. I had a daughter, no, I beg your pardon I had a sister born there. Her name was Betty and I insisted upon calling her Betty. I was four years old and I put my foot down and made sure she was called Betty. But unfortunately, when I was about, oh about nine years old my, my mother died. I assume it was TB. She died in the Isolation Hospital and unfortunately my father was out of work at the time and so we were a bit distressed for money at that time and of course we were talking about 1938 area. There was a Depression on anyway. So, life was a bit grim and at holiday time I was usually sent away to stay with an aunt and I stayed with an aunt who lived at Wareham for quite a few holidays and delightful for me of course. I didn’t have the, I didn’t know anything about all the responsibilities my dad had in trying to maintain a house for us. Eventually, he, he married again. I think possibly his reason was to have someone to care for me while he was out. Not necessarily working but looking for work because we were still on the, in a Depression and my father married again. Then of course around 1939 we had the outbreak of war when everything changed then. I was then working. Apprentice painter and decorator. Not that I necessarily wanted to be a painter and decorator but somebody, but I started work in order to add a few shillings to the family, the family budget. And anyway, when the war came obviously things started to change and we had to take on other jobs like fire watching and that sort of stuff. But one thing I did do was to join the Air Training Corps because I knew that eventually if I reached the age of eighteen and the war was still on I was going to be conscripted into one of the Services and so the one that I really chose was the Royal Air Force. And, and I did and I stayed in the Royal Air Force. I was made a corporal in fact.
RP: In the ATC?
KS: Pardon?
RP: That’s in the Air Training Corps.
KS: In the Air Training Corps. Yes. I was made a corporal. I had a, a book was given me as a prize a while ago and it was aero engines and I’ve given that away recently and I gave it to Debbie’s father because he’s an engineer and he was interested in these aircraft engines of 1939. And eventually it came to I was eighteen and I volunteered for the Royal Air Force as I wanted to be a flight engineer. Well, I was at air training, the Air Training Corps. One day a sergeant turned up and he was wearing a flying badge with the letters FE in the, in the badge itself which of course was later changed to just the letter E and that was it. That convinced me I wanted to be a flight engineer. But you couldn’t join direct entry from Civvy Street to be trained as a flight engineer. You had to be a ground tradesman.
RP: Oh right. Ok.
KS: So, I had, so my opinion was, what I decided to do, not only myself but my cousin Ron Barnicoat, he was in the Air Training Corps with me. We both decided that when we reached the age of eighteen we were going to volunteer for the Royal Air Force, be trained as a flight mechanic and then having been trained as a flight mechanic then apply to become flight engineers. And we both decided to do this and my cousin, Ron Barnicoat who was about a year older than me he went off a year before me. As soon as he was eighteen he went off and he started that process of being trained as a flight mechanic and then converting to a, to a flight engineer and I did the same. When I was eighteen I went off.
RP: So where did you enrol for the RAF then?
KS: Sorry?
RP: Where did you sign on to the RAF?
KS: I went to, first of all I went to Penarth in South Wales where I was issued with all my kit and that sort of thing and a load of jabs stuck in my arm. Then I went to Weston Super Mare where I did all the foot slogging and drill. That sort of stuff. So, all the signature and that must have been by that time. And then I had then to wait for my flight mechanics course and I was waiting for my flight mechanics course by being stationed at 16 Maintenance Unit at St Athan.
RP: St Athan. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. I [pause] I was just an odd job chap there waiting for the course as a flight mechanic and I used to act as armed guard on lorries that were delivering ammunition and guns, that sort of thing from the Maintenance Unit. But eventually I got sent up to Blackpool for one of the School of Technical Training. I’m not sure. I think it might have been possibly Number 2 School of Technical Training at Squire’s Gate. We were living at [pause] in the boarding houses at South Shore and I started my flight mechanics course but unfortunately I developed Cellulitis in the right ankle and I got put in the hospital. So, my course stopped and when I was released from hospital about four weeks later of course I had to re-start again. Meantime, my cousin Ron he was still carrying on with the plan we had made. He had done his flight mechanics course and then he’d been put on a fitter’s course so I never quite caught up with him. And anyway, I eventually finished my training as a flight mechanic and immediately volunteered for aircrew duties as a flight engineer because I now had a ground trade. But I was sent to a maintenance unit, I think it was in Sealand near Chester to wait for my course as a flight engineer to start. And eventually it came along and I got posted to St Athan’s and at long last I caught up with my cousin, Ron Barnicoat. He was, he had done the same as me but as I say he was about a year ahead of me and I met him on the day he received his flying badge and three stripes and we had a few beers in the NAAFI and the next morning he went off home on leave. Probably seven days leave to Weymouth, his family in Weymouth and I never saw him again because he went and joined a squadron, a Canadian squadron flying Halifaxes and eventually he was shot down over Hamburg and he still was just listed as missing. No known, no known grave.
RP: This was one of his first sorties, yeah?
KS: I don’t know.
RP: Right.
KS: I don’t know how many sorties he’s done. He’d done. He joined this, all I know is that he joined this Canadian squadron which was [pause] what was it? I’m not sure. Was it 2 Group? 2 Group I think they were. Can you remember Debbie? We did look it up, didn’t we?
DF: Yeah. We looked up —
RP: But he was, he was shot down. So obviously you heard about this, how long after he’d gone away then?
KS: Yeah. He went, he left me at St Athan’s.
RP: Yeah.
KS: To go down to, to [pause] on leave to Weymouth.
RP: Right.
KS: But I never saw him again. I don’t know how many ops and I can’t remember how long it was that he was flying before he got, before he got shot down.
RP: Yeah. I’ve got 29th of July ’44 he was, he died.
KS: 29th of July.
RP: 425 Squadron.
KS: Yeah.
RP: He’s on the Runnymede. Yeah. Yeah. It’s —
KS: Yeah.
RP: That’s where they put them. Yeah. Ok.
KS: But I never knew —
RP: But obviously you were on your course and you were heading to be the flight engineer then.
KS: That’s it. Yes. And I carried on with the course because I didn’t know about him being shot down. Well, I’d finished the course.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And in fact, I was trained to go on Stirlings and Stirlings at that time of course had been removed from the main Bomber Command.
RP: Yes.
KS: And so I was sent, having qualified as a flight engineer and got my flying badge I was sent to, I think it was Wratting Common which was a sort of training unit for, for Stirlings and then there I joined a crew for the first time and four of the crew were Australians. They were Tommy Hawkins, Abernethy, Ron Arnold, [Cabbie] Cable. Those were the four Australians. And we had two gunners. The mid-upper gunner, he was a Geordie and I can’t for the life of me think of his name. And then there was Taf Reakes. He was the rear gunner. And we crewed up and started our training flying the Stirling and eventually we got posted to North Africa because the Stirling was kitted out as supply dropping.
RP: Yes.
KS: And target towing. That sort of thing.
RP: Yeah.
KS: It had a big hole in the floor, you know for the parachutists to jump out of that sort of thing and we got sent out to, to North Africa and we went via Rabat. Rabat Salé. Directed there and then across to I think the name of the airfield was Blida.
RP: Yeah. In Algeria. Yeah.
KS: In Algeria. Yes. Near, just outside of Algiers.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And we were there but by the time we got there the requirement for supply dropping in the south of France was no longer needed because the French, the Free French, the American Army and the Maquis had taken over the south so they were no longer needed. And so the Stirlings were, were sort of almost, well the squadron was disbanded. I’m not sure of the number of the squadron. It was a number like 624 or something like that.
RP: Yeah.
KS: A large name. So, our crew, we were kept together and just moved about wondering, wondering what was going to happen to us. And eventually we finished up at a squadron in southern Italy at Brindisi, 148 Squadron. And they were supplying people like Tito up in in Yugoslavia.
RP: Oh yes.
KS: And they were using Halifaxes and but of course, the Stirlings that we had had been modified for North, North Africa work. Low level. They had no oxygen system and they had great big oil coolers to keep the engines cool and [pause] but couldn’t be expected to fly over the mountains to supply Tito so we were decided we weren’t needed there at 148 Squadron and we were sent home to, home to Great Britain with a Stirling thinking it was going to be modified up with oxygen and that sort of thing. But we landed. I’m not sure whether it was, it might have been St Mawgan. You had a problem with the, the big oil coolers. They used to get a thing called coring. Flying in the cold weather. The centre of the, the centre of the oil cooler would freeze.
RP: Oh God.
KS: And the core would build up, build up, build up.
RP: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
KS: And the only way you could clear it was to belt your engines. Well, of course if you belted your engines you were using up fuel.
RP: Yeah.
KS: That you needed to get to your destination. So, it was a bit of a problem and I think we, we didn’t land in an emergency but the pilot decided we had gone far enough and we landed. I’m not sure whether it was in Cornwall or South Wales, it will probably be in my logbook and we were sent home on leave. Or I was sent home on leave. The Australians went to see their relatives in in Great Britain assuming that we were going to go back and have this Stirling modified and then go back to the Middle East again. But it didn’t happen that way. Instead, we got sent to the Lanc Finishing School at Syerston and converted on to Lancasters. And we converted on to the Lancasters and then we got posted to Fulbeck where we did four bombing raids over Germany. And then we were sent on leave and at that time there was a Nuffield Scheme going and aircrew got extra warrants for going on leave. They also got extra ration cards for going on leave. All paid for by Lord Nuffield, I think. It was a long time ago. I can’t remember it. Anyway, I I went on my leave and I returned from leave. As I say we’d done four bombing operations and I went back to Fulbeck to find that in my absence 49 Squadron had been moved to Syerston. So, I went and moved over to Syerston and it came to then the time of the year was ready for the last bombing raid of the war which was Berchtesgaden. And we went on the bombing raid to Berchtesgaden and we completed our bombing run and we got hit on number, number four engine I think it was and so we had to feather the prop. We came back on three and we were the last ones. The last crew of 49 Squadron to land because we came back with three engines and before I’d got to the crew bus the engine fitter had run after me with a piece of flak that had hit the engine. He said it cut straight through an oil pipe.
RP: Oh right.
KS: And the piece of flak was about as big as your thumb.
RP: Yeah. That’s all it needs, I guess.
KS: And I had it in this house.
RP: Oh right.
KS: And we’ve searched everywhere. We can’t find it anywhere.
RP: You haven’t got a fire to put it on. No.
KS: We, you have to remember we were flooded out of the house.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
KS: And it could well have got swept away.
RP: It could be floating down someday.
KS: It’s only, you know a bit.
RP: Yeah. Just need a small piece.
KS: About as big as your thumb.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Anyway —
RP: Well, at least, at least you got back. That’s the main thing.
KS: Oh, we got back. Yes. And we, we landed back at Syerston and, and I think in my logbook we did a training, a training exercise. Fighter affiliation. That sort of thing. And then, then it came to May the 2nd when we all jumped in our aeroplanes and flew to Brussels to bring back our prisoners of war.
RP: That was, that was a nice flight then.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Bringing back all the —
KS: Yes.
RP: It must have been a bit of a sight, I suppose.
KS: It was. It was a bit of a strange do really because we’d switched off our engines at Brussels and of course there were no ground crew there to assist us at all. Just to tell us where to park and we loaded up the, loaded up the Lancaster with our ex-prisoners of war and we were going to get a bit of a problem restarting our engines so I was told to go out and prime them because in a Lancaster you could. In the undercarriage bay there was a priming button.
RP: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
KS: And I was told to get out and do it but the aircraft was full of prisoners of war. But behind me, standing behind me was, I can remember standing because the flight engineer didn’t have anywhere to sit. He stood by the side of the pilot.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Anyway, standing beside me was a regimental sergeant major and he said, ‘Make yourself stiff, lad.’ So, I did and they passed me over hand over hand down through the fuselage and I went up into the undercarriage bay and primed the engines. Then hand over hand back, back to my place and we started the engines and brought them back to, brought the ex-prisoners of war back home. Yeah.
RP: Pity you haven’t got a photograph of that.
KS: It was wonderful and it’s a grand story to tell too.
RP: It is.
KS: Perfectly true.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Whether it was necessary for me to do it. You didn’t want, you see I think the pilot was getting a bit concerned because we had no external trolley acc. No external electrical supply for, for running your starter motors.
RP: That’s right.
KS: You had to do it entirely upon your aircraft batteries and if your, if the engine is on fire and your batteries were flat you were done.
RP: Yeah.
KS: You had to sit there and wait for some poor chap to go all the way from England with some batteries for you. So, I think as a special precaution I was told to go and prime the engines.
RP: Yeah. Make sure they go.
KS: Yeah.
RP: And they obviously fired up then.
KS: Yes.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: And they all worked well and of course it’s a grand story to tell.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And it’s perfectly true.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. Anyway, we, we, we came back. That was on the 2nd of May and of course by the 8th of May peace was declared and we carried on then. After that we carried on supposedly training to go out to the Far East with the Lancasters. The Australians, and I was, four of the crew were the Australians they were almost told immediately you know return home. And I think they did. Most of them. Certainly, I remember seeing the pilot afterwards because he was engaged to marry one of our WAAFs and [pause] What was her name? I can’t think of her name now. Anyway, she lived at Lincoln and, and Tommy our pilot he stayed with her parents for a little while. But I think the, the problem arose because the Australians went back home to Australia to continue the Far Eastern war which then suddenly came to an end with the atom bomb. And then there was an awful lot of servicemen in Australia who were no longer required and there were an awful lot of people looking for work and I think the case finished up with Tommy just you know, he was looking for work rather than having a young bride coming out from England. Well, they hadn’t got married and so they didn’t get married. Dot Everitt. That was her name. Yeah. But I never met her after that but Tommy Hawkins turned up and when he was telling me the story that’s how it happened. Fearing that he was no longer employable when he got back home. He, he tried to join the RAF but he couldn’t afford the fare to get here.
RP: Oh right.
KS: So, it was a bit tight. Me. I got in to 49 Squadron. I stayed with them for a while and then I got posted up to the Empire Air Navigation School at Shawbury near Shrewsbury still flying Lancasters, and they were improving the training of navigators, that sort of thing. And while I was up there my wife, Flora and I decided to get married. And the week before we were due to get married which was October the 21st, Trafalgar Day there was no flying on the week before and somebody said, ‘Let’s go and have a game of basketball.’ So, we went down to the gym for a game of basketball and I finished up laying on the floor with a broken cheek bone.
RP: Oh no.
KS: So that was the week. They whipped me off into hospital and all I could say was, ‘I’m getting married next week.’ [laughs] Anyway, I was eventually whipped all the way across the country to the RAF hospital at Halton and they fixed up my broken cheekbone and I finished up with a big black eye and five stitches in the side of my head where they’d put the —
RP: Right.
KS: Whatever they needed to click my cheekbone back into place.
RP: That, that was a violent game of basketball wasn’t it?
KS: Eh?
RP: That was a violent game of basketball.
KS: Printed on my cheek [laughs] then somebody used a little rubber stamp saying, stamp saying, “Do not press here.” And I was sent home on leave to get married like that. I had a uniform. Someone had thrown a uniform in the back of the ambulance but there was no wallet so I had no money and worst of all of course I had no wedding ring. I’d bought one. Anyway, I got home. I didn’t have, and they let me in to hospital on the Thursday at Halton and I had to get to Weymouth to get married and I went. I got to Weymouth to get married. I’m greeted by Flora came out to greet me to see this great black eye and she also informed me that the doctors had just been to the house and her mother had three days to live.
RP: Oh no.
KS: This is absolutely true. She was upstairs in her bedroom.
RP: Crikey.
KS: But the doctors told Flora and I to carry on with our procedures. Fortunately, we had agreed to have a quiet wedding but what are we going to do with our wedding ring? We had to go and prise it off of her mother who was lying up in her bed. Anyway, we got married and we had a honeymoon. That was a lovely afternoon, you know [laughs] We didn’t have a honeymoon at all.
RP: No.
KS: We had, we went to the Registry Office and got married and came back home. A few friends came home. Came in. Flora had made a lovely wedding cake. And I’ve got photographs of her cutting it and that was on the Sat [pause] Yes, it was a Saturday we got married. I think on the Sunday the doctors came again and, and said to us that it would be far better if they took Flora’s mother into hospital. They could make her more comfortable and they said, the surgeon said we wish to do this and then I suggest, he suggested we, Flora and I went away for two or three days which we did. But and there was me you see in my old battledress with my black eye and we went to stay with some friends who lived at Godalming. But after two or three days we, we came home again to find that Flora’s mother had been operated on. Now, what they did I don’t know but she had dreadful stomach trouble and that sort of thing and she was recovering. So, from death, from death’s door she was now recovering but of course we hadn’t given her her wedding ring back yet. This is absolutely true. It’s incredible, isn’t it?
RP: Yeah.
KS: Yeah. You almost have a Laurel and Hardy film that at the end of the week was the end of my leave so I went back to Shawbury and of course and then immediately posted the wedding ring back that I had there.
RP: Right.
KS: Posted it back to Flora and also some money to pay her brother who’d loaned us money to get married.
RP: So, did her mother know that the ring had gone then?
KS: I’m sorry?
RP: Did her mother know she’d lost the ring?
KS: No.
RP: No. She didn’t know.
KS: She didn’t. She didn’t know anything.
RP: Oh.
KS: She didn’t know anything at all. No. but anyway, we trundled along like that. I stayed at Shawbury for about oh I suppose about a month and then I left the Air Force for a while. And flora’s mother was in hospital and we used to go up and visit her and she recovered. She was a tough Scot. She spent her childhood I think or girlhood on the Red Clyde and so she knew what was going on. And I came out in to Civvy Street and it wasn’t right for me and it wasn’t right for Flora and we sat down one day and had a long talk and she said that if the man of the house is not doing a job he’s interested in the wedding is, the marriage is going to fail. It’s the most important thing that the man of the house and we sat down and we both decided that the job I wanted to do was to be a flight engineer in the RAF. And so I, at the time I was a foreman painter on a building site and we agreed that I would apply to go back in the RAF to be a flight engineer and so I did this and I was accepted and I remember Flora saying to me, ‘If you’re going back in to the RAF as a flight engineer you’re going to be the best.’ So, I had to live up to her and try to do the best but that’s, that’s why I got back in to the RAF. And I spent a tour then at Lyneham which wasn’t far from Weymouth on Hastings and from there I did a tour at Boscombe Down which was even closer to home and at that time, around about 1953 I suppose the RAF were getting lots of new aeroplanes. For example, a new mark, the Mark 3 Shackleton, the Beverley, the three V bombers and they all came through Boscombe Down being trained err being tested and I was fortunate enough to fly in them. I flew in all three V bombers and I did a flight re-fuelling course at Tarrant Rushton, the Alan’s Cobham’s factory. And I flew on the Valiant as the drogue operator for the flight refuelling. It was such an interesting job. Yeah. But from there I got, when I’d finished that job I got posted to Kinloss and, to be trained to fly on the Shackleton. We had the Mark 1 Shackletons there. and when I finished the course I was asked to stay on the staff. So, I stayed there for some time. An awful long way away from Weymouth but it was on a job I was doing and I enjoyed instructing and from there I got recommended for a commission. And I did, I went to the, OCTU at the time was at, on the Isle of Man and I got to, I got a commission and I was already, being a warrant officer I went straight to the rank of flying officer and I was posted to 201 Squadron at St Mawgan. There’s a picture of the Nimrod err of the Shackleton up there that we were flying on.
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
KS: Yeah. And I was with a pilot there, he was Wing commander George Chesworth. I’d met him several times. Unfortunately, he’s died now but I met him when he was a wing commander there. I met him when he was a group captain and station commander at Kinloss and then he was an air commodore at Strike Command Headquarters. That sort of thing. And from then on I flew on the Shackletons. And I was then, went to Ballykelly on the Shackletons and eventually of course we started to get the Nimrod through and I spent a fair bit of time then on the acceptance of the Nimrod flight simulator. And we used to, we were, I was stationed at Halton there and because the builders of the, of the Nimrod simulator were Redifon and their factory was in Aylesbury so —
RP: Yeah.
KS: So, living in Halton. And then what happened? Oh, of course when I was an NCO at Boscombe Down I got, I got, I was awarded the AFM by the, and Flora and I had to go up to Buckingham Palace.
RP: That was good so what, what was that?
KS: To see the queen.
RP: What was, what was the citation for that then?
KS: I’ve never seen a citation.
RP: No?
KS: No. It’s something we ought to look in to it really, I suppose Debbie, isn’t it?
RP: There was no citation?
KS: I haven’t seen it. The only, the only information I had was, were the newspaper reports and an official form telling me the way to present myself at Buckingham Palace.
RP: Oh right.
KS: I remember one thing. I wasn’t allowed to carry a sword [laughs] I remember that.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Oh, well, that was nice to receive it then but —
KS: Yeah.
RP: It’s a recognition then obviously of your work.
KS: Yeah. I suppose so to.
RP: But I would have thought there would have been a citation.
KS: Yes. Yes. There must have been some where. Have we got one Debbie? Did we?
DF: I got, let me have a look.
KS: Sorry.
DF: No. It’s ok. You got it for devotion to duty.
RP: You were promoted on my birthday I see.
KS: Was I?
RP: 26th of October 1964. Flying officer to flight lieutenant. Oh, that’s good. Very good.
KS: No.
RP: Then on 1st July ‘74 you became a squadron leader.
DF: That’s the one she signed.
RP: Thank you. [pause] Oh, that’s impressive, isn’t it? Ah. Now, they spelt Prowse with a U.
DF: Oh.
RP: They spelt it with a U. Is that correct?
KS: Do they?
DF: That’s wrong.
KS: Do they?
RP: That’s wrong.
KS: Well, that’s not correct.
DF: If you look at his warrant.
RP: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
DF: For that one. It’s got —
RP: Yeah. They’ve got it wrong. Fancy Buckingham Palace getting your name wrong. I’d send it back.
KS: Dear queen [pause] It was a tremendous event I might add.
RP: Oh absolutely. Absolutely. Really lovely. I love it.
DF: And the warrant is —
RP: That’s lovely.
DF: Dated the 6th day of September 1959.
RP: That’s brilliant, isn’t it? Have they got your name right there then?
DF: They’ve got his name right on that one.
RP: They’re right on that one. That’s good. That’s lovely. So, you, you became a squadron leader when you were almost fifty then. Yes? And still in the RAF. So —
KS: Yeah. I got commissioned but I went on various jobs within Coastal Command and eventually came to being on the acceptance of the Nimrod.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Flight simulator. I was at the factory. There was a pilot and myself on this and then I got posted down to the training unit for Nimrods at, at St Mawgan and I think it was there I got promoted to squadron leader. And then my last tour in the, in the Royal Air Force I was posted back to Boscombe Down which was still the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Unit and the aircraft that I was concerned with there and the ones I flew in in fact was the, was the Comet 4, the Nimrod and an Argosy.
RP: An Argosy.
KS: And that’s what I finished my service on. Finished.
RP: You finished on an Argosy. That was an experience. I haven’t, I haven’t flown one but I’ve flown in one.
KS: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
RP: Between Malta and Cyprus. Ok.
KS: Yeah. But we had the Argosy there for, because one of the tasks that Boscombe Down had of course was testing parachutes.
RP: Yes. Yes.
KS: And if you had a parachute —
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: If you had a modification of any sort.
RP: Yeah.
KS: Say a change of rigging line, that sort of thing the parachute had to be tested a certain number of times before it could be issued generally.
RP: And the Argosy you could just go out the back, couldn’t you?
KS: That’s it. Yes. We used to go out to Cyprus in the spring and the, spring and autumn for maybe three weeks or a month. Our own parachutists in the Argosy and we climbed out and they’d jump and test the parachute. You had to get an awful lot of jumps to prove it before it could be issued generally you know. It was a very interesting job.
RP: So, what year did you leave the RAF then?
KS: 1982.
RP: 1982.
KS: I joined in 1942.
RP: Yeah.
KS: And I left in 1982. My birthday was, I was, I was serving until my, ah I was due to leave at the age of fifty five.
RP: That was going to be my next question.
KS: Yeah.
RP: You obviously went beyond fifty five.
KS: I was ready to leave at fifty five. I was stationed at Boscombe Down and I received a phone call to ask me if I would serve the extra. An extra three years because they were short of experienced air crew. So, I came home and had a word with Flora and we agreed that it would be alright and I got back to this telephone number and I said, ‘But there are one or two things. You want me to do an extra three years. Where do you want me to do them?’ And they said, ‘Where you are stationed now at Boscombe Down doing exactly the same job.’ And I said, ‘Ah, but at the age of fifty five I was entitled to a terminal grant.’
RP: Yes. Yes.
KS: Three times your salary. And they said, ‘You will get that on your birthday.’
RP: Crikey. They must have, they must have wanted you then.
DF: He was very skilled.
KS: And so, I said, ‘Certainly,’ I said, ‘I’ll settle down for the next three years.’ As it happened, on my birthday, my wife and I were in our caravan up in the Forest of Dean and we said, and we woke up in the morning, we both said, ‘I wonder if it’s in yet?’ Because it’s an awful lot of money you see. Three times your salary.
RP: Yes.
KS: And the squadron leader’s salary and flying pay, you see.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
KS: So, we wondered how, how we were going to find out. So, in the end Flora and I decided we’d go down in to Lydney where there was a small branch of Barclays bank and we’d have a word with the bank manager and we went in and we saw him. He said, ‘There’s no problem.’ He said, ‘There’s no problem,’ He said, ‘I’ll phone my friend the manager of the Barclays branch in Dorchester and ask for a bank statement which he did and he came and wrote it out and we knew obviously the money had gone in. So, we went next door and loaded up with wine and whisky.
RP: And went to celebrate. Well —
KS: Yeah.
RP: I think I’d like to, like to bring this to an end by asking the question I usually ask. Your RAF career —
KS: Yeah.
RP: If you had to do it all again, would you?
KS: Indeed. Certainly.
RP: Even during the wartime?
KS: The wartime was difficult to say, isn’t it? If you could guarantee I was going to survive, shall we say.
RP: Oh, in this world yes. I’ll guarantee it. Yes. For my question I’ll guarantee you’d survive. But you obviously enjoyed your time in the RAF.
KS: I did. Tremendously. Yes. My life was changed completely. What was I going to finish up doing as a young lad? An apprentice painter and decorator. During the wartime what painting and decorating went on? Very little.
RP: Yes.
KS: Most of the painting was using camouflage on some Nissen huts that sort of thing and the decorating side was replacing broken windows. What was that, what sort of a career was that going to be?
RP: Oh, I can see that.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Anyway, thank you. It’s been a privilege talking to you. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
KS: So have I.
RP: It’s good to —
KS: I hope I didn’t swear.
RP: Certainly not. Thank you very much. It’s been brilliant. Thank you.
[recording paused]
DF: The Channel Islands when it was still occupied.
KS: Oh, that was in the Stirling. Yes. Yes.
DF: When you got shot at.
[recording paused]
RP: These are additional recordings with Ken Symonds on the 17th of August. Ken, you were going to tell us about what happened on the outbreak of war.
KS: Oh, that, that was the day there was around about half a dozen of us young fellas and I think there were a couple of girls with us. In fact, I think two of the girls were evacuees from London. They’d started evacuating early and we were walking along a road in Weymouth called Radipole Lane. And on the left of Radipole Lane then was a huge great field which was known then as Chickerell flying, Chickerell Airfield. Nowadays, it’s just a huge industrial estate. But we were wandering along there just larking about and just a wander around on a Sunday morning and as walked past this, a hut which was on this Chickerell Airfield there were two young chaps there in Air Force uniform and they were filling sandbags and they said, ‘You know we’re at war.’ And that’s how we learned in fact, this must have been the Sunday in, the Sunday the 9th or 8th or something like that in 1939. War broke out and that’s how we learned about it. And of course, we went home and by this time the family had learned that the war, we were now at war and of course, my dad was an old soldier and he was a bit concerned. But of course, all our parents were concerned. We didn’t know what was going to happen to us but that was the start of it.
RP: Ok. Another thing you were going to tell us I think was the story of one your crewmen Taf Reakes.
KS: Oh yes. Yes. Our rear gunner was a Welshman Taf Reakes and he when we [pause] the end of the war the Australians that was the bomb aimer, navigator, mid up err bomb aimer, navigator, pilot and wireless operator they all went back to Australia and we, other crew members split up and went our various ways. After a while I got posted up to Shawbury so I never really knew what happened to Taf Reakes. I did on one occasion call an address in Wales but I got no reply so I had no contact with him. And then after many years Tommy Hawkins, the pilot turned up on a visit here and he told me that Taf had been killed. And he said he was been training as a pilot and we got the impression he was training as a pilot on a Lancaster. And it wasn’t until a few months ago that we were looking through papers, sorting them, papers in the house and we found a long letter written by Tommy Hawkins about, he had died by this time but we found this long letter which took a bit of translating because his writing was dreadful and it was about, one of the things he was speaking about was trying to find out Taf Reakes’ grave. And we found in fact that he was looking for the wrong, we knew Taf had crashed but Tommy was looking at the wrong village in Wales. He’d got one letter wrong in the, in the name of the village and when we tried the second village we found all the information. That he was travelling, flying in a Washington. One is, one is, what part of the crew he was I don’t know. I can only assume he was training as a pilot but a part of the aircraft disintegrated and the whole aircraft crashed. And there is this small village in Wales where they were buried in the, in the cemetery, I think the crew of ten or twelve and the villagers had put up a resting chair there in memory of what they called, “Our brave aircrew.” And that’s all we know about Taf Reakes. That’s where he ended up. Our gunner.
RP: Thank you for that one. Ok, Ken and finally I think you were going to tell us about your escapade with the Channel Islands.
KS: Well, this was January 1945. The crew I was with. The same crew, you know. Mainly the Australians. We were tasked with the job of bringing a Stirling back from Morocco. A place called Rabat-Salé just up from Casablanca and of course France had been liberated so we flew right up low level virtually up across France. Up the Champs Elysee. It was grand. And somebody said, ‘Oh look, there’s the Channel Islands. Let’s go and have a look.’ So, we did and they started firing at us because we didn’t know that the Germans were still, we’d forgotten that the Germans were still occupying the Channel Islands. So, I think the pilot said, ‘Let’s get the hell out of here.’ So, we shot very quickly away from the Channel Islands and also we landed at Athan’s or St Mawgan. Yeah.
RP: Was the incident reported officially? Or did nobody know?
KS: I don’t know. I don’t know. That would be an Australian question.
RP: If I meet any Australians I’ll ask them.
KS: Yeah.
DF: Did he fly up Pall Mall?
RP: Oh, and the other thing finally I think there was a story I think you’ve mentioned before about Pall Mall. Flying up Pall Mall in London.
KS: Oh, that was only, it was the fly past.
RP: And what was the occasion?
KS: Well, after the war we had, we had we had a fly past up the, formation flying up the Pall Mall. In preparation I assume, practice for the big parade which was on June the 6th, I think. 1946.
RP: So, what aircraft were you in?
KS: A Lancaster.
RP: And how many aircraft took part then? Was it quite a lot?
KS: I think there was possibly three Lancasters.
RP: Oh right.
KS: But the Hurricanes were there and, and the Spitfires were there and if I remember a Dakota was there but it’s so long ago you know and of course I was the flight engineer. I was mainly concerned about safety without looking at all the other aircraft. Yes.
RP: So, you never saw the crowds below then.
KS: Oh, no. No. No.
RP: Ok. Thanks very much for that. Thank you.
KS: Yeah.
RP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Kenneth Walter Prowse Symonds
Creator
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Rod Pickles
Date
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2021-08-17
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:44:54 Audio Recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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ASymondsKWP210817, PSymondsKWP2103
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Symonds was in the Air Training Corps when the unit was visited by a flight engineer. This meeting further inspired him, along with his cousin to join the RAF in a ground trade with the expectation of moving on to become a flight engineer. Ken’s cousin Ron Barnicoat was a year ahead of him in training. They met one final time before Ron went home on leave. Shortly after re-joining his squadron Ron was killed. Ken and his crew took part in Operation Exodus to repatriate prisoners of war.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Channel Islands
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
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Julie Williams
49 Squadron
624 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Fulbeck
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/507/18297/PDidwellRNW1601.2.jpg
0154fdf87579aa78b824932a12f55a05
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/507/18297/ADidwellRNW160719-AV.2.mp3
bb0a36e23929cf7e755d32f2c0056ac4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Didwell, Robert Norman William
R N W Didwell
Norman Didwell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Didwell, RNW
Description
An account of the resource
5 items. Two oral history interviews with Leading Aircraftsman Robert Norman William Didwell (b. 1920, 637410 Royal Air Force) and three photographs . He joined the RAF in 1938 and after training as a rigger served on 99 Squadron equipped with Wellingtons at RAF Newmarket . Subsequently he served at RAF Boscombe Down before going overseas to the middle and far east with Transport Command.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert Norman William Didwell and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 19th of July 2012 and I’m in Leighton Buzzard with Robert Norman William Didwell, known as Young Did and we are going to talk about his experiences as a man on the ground keeping those valiant people flying. So what is your first recollection of life with the family, Norman?
RD: With the family?
CB: Yeah.
RD: Oh, we were a happy little family.
CB: Right.
RD: I had an older brother who was older than me. He was a regular soldier before the war.
CB: Right.
RD: And I had a happy childhood. I was well fed which a lot of them in the 1920s were not. I know a lot of people were starving but I was very lucky. My mother was a, started off as a kitchen maid in with Sir Henry and Lady Campbell-Bannerman who was the Prime Minister of England for the Liberal, the old Liberal party. They had a big castle at, just outside of Meigle and they had a big town house at 137 Cromwell Road. And next door to that building in Cromwell Road was 139 and who do you know lived there?
CB: Your dad?
RD: Lady Scott.
CB: Right.
RD: You know of Scott of the Antarctic but she married Sir Arthur Kennet who was a Liberal MP. So at the time of when Scott as you know, the great nationalist and a lieutenant commander in the Royal Navy, got the Distinguished Service Cross. He was about twelve when I was in my first three or four years growing up. So we go back a long way don’t we? And as I say I left school, got a job with the local grocers as errand boy and then I went in the Post Office as a telegram boy. Then I decided to join the Air Force [laughs] and then you’ve got it. I joined up at the end of ’38 and there you are.
CB: Ok. So where did you join the RAF?
RD: Where did I join?
CB: Yes
RD: Well, we used to, to join up you went to Kingsbury which was the Air Ministry. Then you went to either Uxbridge or Halton. If you were clever enough and you could join when you were fifteen at Halton as a boy apprentice and you did three years at Halton. Did you know that? Did you know?
CB: Yeah.
RD: Yeah. And most of the entries at Halton were very clever blokes. And some of them rose right up the top. If you go to Halton camp there’s photographs of those who started as boy entrants, boy apprentices and went right up the top of the ladder. Air rank.
CB: So the top six in any pass out went to Cranwell —
RD: Yeah.
CB: Right.
RD: ’32 and ’31 entry were two very good entries. They went, did both trades. Engine and air frame.
CB: Which one were you in?
RD: Hmmn?
CB: Which one were you in?
RD: I wasn’t. I never went to Halton.
CB: Where did you go?
RD: I did my training at Uxbridge. [unclear] training. You all did if you joined straight in at the age of eighteen or seventeen. Then you do a [slow] course. Now, the technical bit you do it at Henlow which was an old RAF station. It’s only down the road from here isn’t it? Henlow.
CB: Absolutely. Yeah.
RD: You get a few weeks at Henlow telling you the theory of flight. What an aircraft does etcetera etcetera and then from then on you go on. Then after I’d been, when the war broke out the second or the third day we moved from Mildenhall on the 2nd of August 1939 to Rowley Mile Heath and Rowley Mile Racecourse and took over the Rowley Mile Stadium where we all slept and eat and everything else and so we were in it from the start. Right. Now, we hadn’t been there three or four days and [Sticky Blue] said, ‘Any of you blokes have a driving licence?’ Well, fortunately, I had passed the driving test because my dad had an old twelve point horsepower Citroen. I’d passed in 1938 and got a driving licence and he said, I’d only been there a couple of days at Newmarket and he said, ‘Anybody here got a driving licence?’ So there was Dick Pike, who come from Leighton Buzzard and myself. He said, ‘Right.’ He said [laughs] ‘Flight Lieutenant Stanley is going over to Mildenhall. He’ll pick you up from the flight,’ he said, ‘And you’ve got to sign, do a test on a tractor.’ [laughs] Four tonne tractor.
[telephone ringtone]
[recording paused]
CB: Keen to join a squadron. So —
RD: Well —
CB: Just as a matter of —
RD: After I passed out —
CB: Yeah.
RD: You see.
CB: Flying marks for each.
RD: And you had a small course then of technical stuff but you were called a fitter’s mate.
CB: Ok.
RD: You [ran] the tools to the town and you did all the cleaning.
CB: Right.
RD: But you did learn what an aircraft was all about and how it flew and all the rest of it. So after that then for, from then, from May, from August 1939 ‘til February 1941 I was more or less a fitter’s mate and also in charge of all the petrol that came in to the Rowley Mile and one of the two drivers that drove the bowsers. And so it was interesting because I got to know all the crews. I got to know all the aircrew and everything. But you must remember this. From pre-war days, the outbreak of war ‘til February 1941 you know who the air gunners were don’t you?
CB: Army.
RD: Ground crew.
CB: Ground crew.
RD: Ground crew. You got extra sixpence a day if you passed a gunnery course. Wireless operators, yes they were automatically made, had to do the gunnery course but until they’d done that gunnery course which was to do a fortnight’s what they called summer training they didn’t get paid their sixpence a day extra for aircrew. Now, on the 14th of December 1939 it was a very frosty morning. At about 11 o’clock the sun came out and it was beautiful daylight and there came an order for nine aircraft to attack German shipping in the Schillig Roads of Heligoland. Well, they took off but when they got out over the coast and got over the North Sea the weather started deteriorating and they were down to six hundred feet when they got over the Schillig Roads. And then all hell broke loose. Fighters came up. Luftwaffe. There was two cruisers. I forget how many [unclear] there was a force of German about eight. So five aircraft were shot down over the Schillig Roads. Right. One of them was badly damaged. Anyway, the five that were shot down of the thirty airmen on board that were no known grave. Flight Lieutenant Hetherington, who was a New Zealander his aircraft was badly damaged and they didn’t see in the dark what the damage was and they lost a lot of fuel. But when he put his flaps down to come in on the circuit to land the starboard flap had been shot away. Bonk. That’s when you then got the posters in every Bomber Command station, “Check your flaps.” At least no less than two thousand feet so that to make sure there’s no damage to your flaps to land. So there was, and they’re all on there. I can name them now. I can remember them as well as if it was yesterday. Thirty of those men up there have got no known grave.
CB: This is the picture on the wall.
RD: Yeah.
CB: Of the squadron.
RD: Yeah.
CB: 99.
RD: Yeah.
CB: Right.
RD: Yeah.
CB: So what were they flying? They were all flying Wellingtons?
RD: The first Wellington squadron.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Flew them longer than any other Wellington squadron. Air Chief Marshall, Air Vice Marshall Baldwin who was [unclear] by my man himself long before Harris. Knew more about bombing than Harris did too. I can tell you that now and he was asked to take command of Bomber Command in the Far East and he said, ‘I’m taking 99 Squadron with me.’ They had already done, the first squadron to do a thousand sorties before they went to India and they did a thousand sorties in the Far East. And that’s what they ended up flying in the Far East was the B24. Consolidated bomber. On that picture up there. And that is signed. That big signature —
CB: That’s the Liberator.
RD: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RD: That big signature is Lucien Ercolani’s signature. Do you know who he was? Lucien, Lucien Ercolani was Ercol furniture. And of course, that aerodrome, I forgot the name of the aerodrome near high Wycombe he learned to fly as a young fellow before he ever got called up. But they, him and his brother both volunteered for the Air Force when war broke out. and of course, he had already got about a hundred odd hours in aircraft flying so immediately he was banged on to twin engines and what have you. And he was awarded the DSO as a pilot officer. Yeah.
CB: What was he awarded that for?
RD: And he got two DSOs by the end of the war and the Distinguished Flying Cross. That was flying Wimpies.
CB: Right.
RD: Yeah. And he was a great old bloke was old Lucien. We were very friendly him and I. He was president of our 99 Squadron Association after [pause] after Titch Walker. The famous Air Chief Marshall Walker. Titch Walker. After he died he took over as president and when his daughter wanted him to go and live with her near, up in Lincolnshire and he said he’d looked at this house, this residential housing so I was sitting there playing Bridge all bloody day I’ll go into a residential home because his wife died and he had a very nice home in one of the villages there and so he went into a residential home at High Wycombe. And I used to go and see him and when we used to have the two meetings a year for 99 Squadron Association I always used to go over and pick him up and that.
CB: So in this time you’re an air frames man.
RD: Yeah.
CB: And how was —
RD: I became an air frame, air frame fitter.
CB: Fitter. Right.
RD: Yeah.
CB: So what did you do as an air frame fitter?
RD: You were responsible for all the whole of the air frame and the hydraulics. The flying controls, wheels, tyres, brakes.
CB: And in being responsible for it what were you doing?
RD: Just signed the 4700 when you’d done your daily routine check. You made sure there had been no damage from the night before and you’d done it a hundred percent plus because you had got mates flying in those aircraft. In my period of the first, as I say from 1939 to early ’41 they were your mates. You all slept in the same, until they made them sergeant. Sergeant air gunners and sergeant wireless operators because then the four engine jobs came in and where our boys just got their trade pay and sixpence on top for air gunners they had, these chaps came in for a twelve week gun course, made sergeant and got eight shillings a day. But some of them wished they hadn’t.
CB: Because? Why did they wish they hadn’t?
RD: Because I’ll tell you what. Some of them really were shattered by it when they used to see their mates going down in flames of a night.
CB: This is in the early part of the war.
RD: I put in for, I put in for gunnery so I had to take the aircrew medical but I’ve got a wonky left eye. It wasn’t, it wasn’t up to standard of what they wanted. Now, funny enough my brother was the same. He had a wonky left eye but he shot, he shot at Bisley for his regiment the Kings Own Rifle Corps.
CB: Right.
RD: We both shot from our left shoulder because the right eye was good.
CB: It was ok.
RD: Yeah.
CB: So going back to being air frame fitter you are checking all the —
RD: Yeah.
CB: Items.
RD: Yeah.
CB: And —
RD: You’re responsible for all of the air frame and the hydraulics etcetera etcetera.
CB: What rank are you there?
RD: Eh?
CB: What rank were you there?
RD: Well, I started off as an AC2.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Aircraftsman second class.
CB: Ok.
RD: Then I got promoted to AC1. And then eventually I got promoted to leading aircraftman which is equivalent to a corporal.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Then I went on another course when I came back from overseas —
CB: Yeah.
RD: To advance to Group 1. And so I was then on the top pay for that particular trade.
CB: So what rank were you there?
RD: I was, I passed out as AC1 on the fitter course at St Athans after the war and eventually I got promoted to what was more or less lance corporal. LAC. But I spent, we had [pause] I was at RAF Oakington.
CB: Yeah.
RD: In the early ‘40s. Well, late ‘40s, ’46, ’47 time and we had an attachment at Gatow near Berlin and as you know Berlin was, came under the Russians as you know. The whole lot. The whole zone. They had the whole city but the Americans had [Tegel]
CB: After the war you mean.
RD: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RD: The Americans had Tempelhof. The French had Tegel. The Americans, no the Americans had Tempelhof, the French had Tegel, the Russians had the whole of Berlin and we British we had Gatow which was in Charlottenburg. So actually I had a very interesting twelve years. Spent time in the western desert.
CB: So this was —
RD: Spent time in Iraq. Time in Saudi Arabia.
CB: Fantastic.
RD: On the Persian Gulf.
CB: Let’s just get the sequence clearer then. So after your early time on the squadron which was the Air Force station was called Newmarket wasn’t it?
RD: Yeah.
CB: And then where did you go from there?
RD: I went on the course.
CB: Yeah. Which one?
RD: That was a course at Morecambe.
CB: Right.
RD: They’d got it a Air Force station up there.
CB: Yeah.
RD: It was for training flight riggers and engine fitters.
CB: Right.
RD: But it was a very brief course for us because we had already spent time as fitter’s mates. So we came back then and I got posted to funnily enough, amazing I got posted to experiments at [pause] oh dear, oh dear. It begins with a B doesn’t it?
Other: Boscombe Down.
RD: No. No. Down in [pause] you’ve got three. Three Air Force. They’re all in a line in in the West Country. It begins with a B. There’s a haven. There’s an Upavon. What’s the other one? Netheravon, Upavon.
CB: There are lots around there aren’t there so —
RD: Boscombe Down.
CB: Boscombe Down.
RD: I Went to Boscombe Down.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Yeah. And I was on a night fighter, experimental night fighter unit.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Which we had a Hurricane, a Spitfire and a early Mosquito.
CB: Right.
RD: And they were carrying out night fighting. All sorts of gadgets trying to muffle the exhaust flames you know.
CB: Oh, yeah.
RD: And different plans they tried and we had Squadron Leader Bragg and another flight lieutenant. I forget his name. And when there was air raids on Plymouth and Bristol and these places we used to have to turn out and off they went to see if they could shoot a few old Germans down. I believe Bragg did cop two. I believe he shot two. I don’t know what, I heard he got killed later in the war. Yeah.
CB: So the day fighters had a bit of a struggle in the night.
RD: Hmmn?
CB: The day fighters struggled in the night.
RD: Yeah.
CB: So the ones doing the shooting down were —
RD: They tried all sorts of gadgets with them.
CB: Right.
RD: Yeah. Yeah, but I wasn’t there long because we had a sticky night one night and it rained like hell and, I think it was a young flight lieutenant was coming in and we brought him in with our torches and he got in a patch there and it was stuck right up to the blooming axels on the undercarriage wheel. So we dig him out. So we dug him out and we missed our tea. What they called our supper really.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Actually. So we tried to get something cooked in the cookhouse. There was a sandwich and the station warrant officer walked in. Played hell with us. Played hell with us. ‘Look at the state of it.’ I said, ‘We’ve just dug out an aircraft out of the mud.’ We carried on alarming. It wasn’t long after I was posted overseas.
CB: So —
RD: I heard, I heard this bloody station warrant officer because most of them were ex-Brigade of Guards you know and a lot of them were Irish and they weren’t technical men. It was only later when the fitters became flight engineers when they finished their tour or two tours they became station warrant officers. That was a different set up altogether.
CB: So the original station warrant officer wasn’t necessarily an engineer was he?
RD: Oh no. Oh, they were [unclear]
CB: Yeah.
RD: Oh God, they were Guards.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Most of them were Irish and they didn’t like the English. Believe me. I tell you what. At one time you could shout out, ‘Paddy,’ and half the squadron turned around. Shout out, ‘Jock,’ the other half turned around.
CB: Not a lot of space for you.
RD: He’s going to sleep there [laughs] He’s so bored.
Other: No. I’m watching this.
CB: He’s watching. He’s watching a video.
RD: You’re not —
CB: No. [laughs] So —
Other: You’re featuring.
CB: When you finished at, well at Boscombe Down what were you doing there specifically?
RD: Well, looking after the air frame on a Hurricane.
CB: Right. To be sure that everything worked.
RD: Spit and the early Mosquito.
CB: Right.
RD: In fact, when we went, I went overseas and they turned Ferry Control, I went to Ferry Control and then it turned into Transport Command and it was when I was on attachment from Cairo, well from Transport Command, 216 Transport Command Group which headquarters was at Heliopolis just outside of Cairo. We used to go and do attachments all over. Landing strips all the way through to India. So you worked on practically every make of military aircraft there was including the Cairo to Karachi Flying Boat once a week.
CB: Oh right.
RD: When we was at Sharjah. Yeah, because that used to land in Sharjah Creek. Which was Dubai
CB: Yeah.
RD: Dubai. And then, it’s now Dubai it was a mud village when I was there. When we were there. Yeah. It was an interesting six years. It was an education the war actually.
CB: Yeah.
RD: It was an education. Yeah.
CB: So when you had finished at Boscombe Down when did you move and where did you go?
RD: I went, I went up to Padgate.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And the next thing I’m on the boat convoy out to the east.
CB: Yeah. And where did you go?
RD: Well, we left Liverpool.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Convoy. Went halfway around the Atlantic I think and landed up in Suez.
CB: Right.
[recording paused]
RD: Kilo-40.
CB: Right.
RD: No. Bilbeis. Bilbeis, I went. And that was on the Canal Zone.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And then I went up to the Western Desert to Kilo-40. And Kilo 40 then we were sent to, some of us, five of us went to Sharjah on the Persian Gulf. Then we went up to Habbaniya and we were there for a couple of months and then we went back up to the Far East.
CB: So when you were at Kilo-40 what, what aircraft were at that?
RD: The other, we had the Transport Command Conversion Unit.
CB: Right.
RD: We had a couple of Dakotas.
CB: Yeah.
RD: We had a couple of Liberators. We had a couple of Hudsons. Lockheed Hudsons. We had [pause] what was the other one we had? A Yankee. We had a Baltimore. Yeah. It was Conversion Unit from single engine people to twins and four engines.
CB: Right.
RD: Because this was before we landed in North Africa. Right.
CB: Yeah.
RD: So they were training these people.
CB: Before Operation Torch. Yeah.
RD: So as they converted to twin or four so that we could have a good bash at Mussolini and his lot from North Africa.
CB: So which aircraft were you dealing with or did you deal with —
RD: Every type. That’s the great thing about being in Ferry Control and Transport Command.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Every military aircraft that was built that went to the Far East came through the staging posts on that route.
CB: Yeah.
RD: So people who started off in Cornwall, at St Ives.
CB: Yeah.
RD: They, every build of typical military aircraft were be serviced by us blokes.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And they were, they sent them up. They used to be sent off at night when it was dark and the first stop on the staging posts was Gibraltar. Then that night they’d take off from there and dodge the old Luftwaffe to land anywhere they could near the western desert that we were still holding.
CB: Yeah.
RD: But then all the way right through Iraq. Right through Saudi Arabia, Karachi and then right into the Far East.
CB: So here you are in the desert. Were you, are you in a tent or what are you living in?
RD: We was in a tent.
CB: Ok. How many in the tent?
RD: Four in a tent.
CB: Ok.
RD: Sometimes six. And what we used to do they was what they called the UPI tents. You could just about stand up in them. What we used to do we used to put it, put it and then we used to dig a hole about three or four feet deep. Right. Put our kit bags and stuff up alongside so it don’t fall. So we could stand up in it practically.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Because when you were working on aircraft in the heat of the day and you can imagine what it was like when you got in the tent at night —
CB: Yeah.
RD: Or when you packed up your duties, finished work you hung your shirt on the old tentpole and it was solid with salt. We used to have to drink a pint of salt water every morning before breakfast and we used to have a pint at lunchtime and then late at night because the heat you lose all your salt. And then that of course turns. Can be very serious and some people who weren’t very strong they died of heat exhaustion you know.
CB: Did they?
RD: Oh God, yeah. There was quite a lot of troops and military died of heat exhaustion.
CB: What was the, was that because they weren’t covered up? Didn’t have enough water? Or what?
RD: Yeah. They just weren’t up to medically they weren’t fit enough to stand that kind of heat. I mean, I’m talking about you’ve got it here today, you’ve got thirty, haven’t you?
CB: Yeah.
RD: Can you imagine what it’s like at thirty eight degrees? And that’s what it was on the Persian Gulf. We could look from Sharjah village, we could look across and see the coastline of Iran.
CB: Right.
RD: It’s just twelve miles.
CB: Is it?
RD: And Dubai where we, we Sharjah was about ten miles from Dubai. We used to go and service the Flying Boats when they came in there. Especially the main one that used to run every day from, once a week from Cairo to Karachi. Right. So, you know, it was when you see Dubai today.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And the [unclear] family what they own.
CB: Yes.
RD: You want to see their place in Newmarket. Or just outside Newmarket. On the road into, on the whatsit road out of Newmarket. You want to see it. With the gold painted drapes and all their, yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And by the way strict Muslims. You want to see them with the, yeah the models. Yes. Yes. You should. We’ve got a monument at Newmarket just outside the entrance to the members and owner’s entrance to Rowley Mile, right and you’d be surprised what the owners have got there. Little special places and that. What they call their [pause] what do you call it? Their, like a, it’s a big room with a bar and everything. You’d be surprised at the booze and the [unclear] family because one of the caretakers I knew when I was visiting. I always used to say if I was going to Newmarket I was going to look at our Memorial there at Newmarket and you’d be surprised the booze in there. And some of the young ladies of the town, you know. Oh yes. This business of Muslim you know. Yeah. Treacherous as hell. Have you had any —
CB: So —
RD: Have you had any news from Arabia that they’ve had these terrorists playing hell?
CB: Yeah.
RD: No.
CB: No.
RD: They haven’t. No. So who’s bloody well financing them through their arms then?
CB: Yeah.
RD: Got it?
CB: So you went from Sharjah to Karachi. Did you go on to Karachi?
RD: No. No. No.
CB: You didn’t. You stayed in —
RD: We, these, these places was you started off from, the aircraft used to fly from St Ives, Cornwall.
CB: Yeah.
RD: All types.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Going to the Far East.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And there were staging posts right the way through the route. I mean it wasn’t a day when you could take off a day and fly five thousand miles without stopping?
CB: They had regular stopping points.
RD: Yeah. I mean the Wellington only held four hundred, err seven hundred and fifty gallons of fuel.
CB: Right.
RD: Right. But that only gave them about nine hours flying at the most and they weren’t flying at five hundred miles an hour like these modern day jets. So they’d got to land somewhere to refuel. So that’s why they set up these staging posts.
CB: How long, how long were you out there? So you also went to —
RD: Altogether I was —
CB: Habbaniya .
RD: I was, I was over three years I was overseas.
CB: Ok.
RD: But you listen to this. Do you know if you served in India you did five years in India?
CB: Did you?
RD: Yeah. And shall I tell you something? You might not have known about this but do you know there was a mutiny in the RAF at the end of the war in India? No? A lot of people don’t.
CB: So what caused that?
RD: Wait a minute. Six of those leaders went to prison.
CB: Did they?
RD: Yes. They got eighteen months hard labour.
CB: What were they reacting to?
RD: Well, they’d been and done their five years. The war broke out but they didn’t bring them home. Not the ground crew.
CB: Right.
RD: And they had to do another five years ‘til it was all over. No. A lot of people don’t know about this do they?
CB: Right.
RD: No. That was all hushed up. No. As a friend of mine called [Ted Fowkes] who was ground crew with me and a I knew him for a few years we always seemed to end up at the same place. He said to me not long before he died, he said, ‘You know, Norm,’ he said, ‘The whole bloody lot of us in the military, officers, the lot we should have formed our own political party.’
CB: After the war.
RD: Yeah. He said, ‘And this country wouldn’t be in the state it is now.’
[redacted]
CB: Can I just take you back to the desert? So what was it like? You’re in a tent. What’s the temperature?
RD: All depends what part. If you’re in Egypt and Iraq.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Saudi Arabia was the worst. Sharjah was the worst.
CB: Right.
RD: Now, the landing strip at Sharjah is now the main road in Dubai.
CB: Right.
RD: Now, Lieutenant Colonel Hutchinson was a political officer from the Indian government where he’d served in the Indian Army but he was a Sandhurst trained man.
CB: Right.
RD: Fought in the Boer War. Was a DSO and a military medal and he used to come and have a chat with us when he used to visit Sharjah because he had to, you know pay them the, he used to come with his accountants and pay box —
CB: Yeah.
RD: From India because they paid were paid in rupees.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And he was sitting there one night on an empty four gallon [unclear] and chiefy, Flight Sergeant Benson said, ‘What’s going to happen now we’re again in North Africa?’ So he said, ‘Well, under here,’ he said, ‘Is a lot of wealth.’ He said, ‘And when the oil concession runs out in the early ‘50s they will take it over.’ He said, ‘And believe you me flight sergeant,’ he said, ‘They will make a fucking,’ that was the word, ‘A fucking hell of a life for the white people and the Christians.’ Now, that was his words. I can say because we looked aghast, you know.
CB: Yeah, I bet.
RD: When he said it.
CB: Can I just get an idea of what a standard day was like? So starting off when you’re in North Africa because of the heat what time did you get up and do your work?
RD: Well, you wanted to get up, you’d got to be up at 6 o’clock.
CB: Right.
RD: And it was reasonably cool then to get the engine started, to get the crew in but it was in the afternoon when the poor buggers were landing in the heat of the day they’d flown probably eighteen hundred miles, fifteen hundred miles between the two, the staging posts. They were, they were ringing wet. Ringing wet. They used to get out and we had water [unclear] . They used to, the Arabs were paid to bring water from wells. What they called these water [unclear]
CB: Yeah.
RD: They were a porous great big, a great big bowl on legs and it was porous so the cool breeze if you’d got a breeze kept the water cool.
CB: Right.
RD: At first you had to pump [laughs] then they’d pour it over themselves. And we used to get burned too with metal aircraft very often.
CB: On the plane?
RD: Yeah. When we were doing our interior. To fill up, to fill up the petrol.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Especially at Sharjah where we hadn’t got the facilities we only had the four hundred and fifty gallon bowsers we used to have old blankets. They issued old blankets so as when we were standing there on the main plane filling up it didn’t burn us through our feet. Especially on the metal aircraft
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
RD: So it was an education.
CB: I bet. So you you’d start at six. Then what time would you give up doing the work in the day?
RD: Well, by the time we got the aircraft off —
CB: Yeah.
RD: Tidied up everything, refuelled, we used to get Arab labour at Sharjah.
CB: Right.
RD: Four gallon petrol cans that had been brought down by a steam, a post from Basra. A Dutch ship it was actually, a tramp steamer. They used to bring the four gallon tank. That was unloaded into those, brought to the shore and then it was all donkey carried up to the base and we had sacks of these four gallon tanks of petrol, of aviation fuel and so it was, it was blooming hard work all the time. It was when you’d got the bowser pumping, you were standing on the main plane in the heat.
CB: Yeah. With a funnel.
RD: Yeah.
CB: With a funnel.
RD: With a funnel, yeah. With a chamois leather and a —
CB: So how much spillage would there be when you were trying to pour these?
RD: Quite a lot. Quite a lot. Quite a lot.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Yeah.
CB: It was hot.
RD: You’d got to be very careful when you were refuelling aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Very careful.
CB: Could you get spontaneous combustion from the surface of the plane? Off the petrol.
RD: Well, I’d never seen it happen and I never heard of it happening but my golly when one pranged it went up very quickly. I’ve seen some bad crashes. Seen some bad crashes.
CB: And these are the old cans.
RD: And when you get in, get in these wrecks.
CB: Yeah.
RD: See the state of the person who’s been killed or the one who is seriously injured.
CB: Right.
RD: You never forget it.
CB: No.
RD: You don’t.
CB: So did you, was this on the airfield or because you went out to crash recovery?
RD: Well, it, it happened very often on take-off or landing.
CB: Right.
RD: You see we had that night on December the 14th 1939, on the Thursday night when they were just coming in at about half past four or five o’clock time. It was dead. Really black. I mean it was December and I was filling up one of the bowsers as we’d been there about a month when they brought in a twenty thousand gallon tank. Put us in a proper supply because before that two of us were driving backwards and forwards getting filled up from Mildenhall dump. At Rowley Mile there was no such thing was there? So they had to put a twenty thousand gallon big tank above ground.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And it was camouflaged paint and I was filling up and it was just dark and they’d got their landing light, not their landing lights but their navigation lights were on and as they got down on the ground then there was no such thing as electric lights and that. A flare path was was nothing else but paraffin. What they called beehive.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Soaked in paraffin.
CB: Yeah.
RD: And there was an airman looked after two. Started off at one end for the first seventy five yards and it was a hundred yards, a hundred yards, a hundred yards. So you got seven blokes looking after the flare. That’s ground crew blokes and you got the team at the front and sometimes they used their landing lights because in the starboard wing of the Wimpy there were two lights that came down like car lights, you know. And it was very dangerous on the flare path because I’ll tell you for why. Sometimes if there was a cross wind you’d got to duck a bit quick or you’d get your head chopped off with the low flying aircraft I’ll tell you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Robert Norman William Didwell. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADidwellRNW160719-AV, PDidwellRNW1601
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Pending review
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Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Format
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00:42:37 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Robert joined the RAF at the end of 1938 when he was 18. He flew with 99 Squadron, spending three and a half years overseas. Robert recalls how his older brother was a regular soldier before the war in the 1920s, and his mother was a kitchen maid. From August 1939 to February 1941, he acted as a first mate and oversaw all the fuel that came into his station and got to know all the air crew. He describes how on the 14th December 1939 there was an order for nine aircraft to attack German shipping across the North Sea. He states that they struggled with the weather and how five aircraft were shot down and one badly damaged, and 30 men lost their lives. He was a fitter airframe and in charge of the hydraulics, wheels, tyres and breaks through daily routine checks. He describes how he could not be an army medic due to his bad left eye not being up to standard. He eventually achieved the rank of lance corporal. After his early time on the squadron at RAF Newmarket, he went on an engineering course and was then posted at RAF Boscombe Down. He was also stationed overseas in Egypt and the Persian Gulf. He describes how many soldiers died of heat exhaustion while stationed there.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
North Africa
Egypt
Persian Gulf Region
Temporal Coverage
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1938
1939
1940
1941
1939-12-14
Contributor
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William Evans
Julie Williams
99 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
ground personnel
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Newmarket
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/11703/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/11703/AStockerEE150731.1.mp3
1ba2b80b055698b24ec2f4ad054d8be7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: Tell us about yourself, Ted. Who you are and how got joining the Air Force?
TS: Oh, dear me. My name is Edward Ernest Stocker but for brevity call me Ted Stocker. I was born in August 1922 and I joined the Air Force at the age of fifteen in January 1938. I became, I went to Halton and became one of the Trenchard Brats. And from then on I was in the Air Force and life took it’s natural course with the war on.
[recording paused]
AP: On, on the aircraft. If you could talk a little bit about that, please.
TS: I started off as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. The Halifax really did need a flight engineer because the aircraft was originally designed to bomb Germany from advanced bases in France. The idea, before we really got into operations was we’d bomb, although you got our bombs in England then flew to France, refuelled so that we could reach Germany. Of course, when a little thing like Dunkirk arrived it was no longer feasible. So they modified the aircraft. Added extra fuel tanks. Eventually we had four fuel tanks in the Halifax. They kept squeezing little tanks in all over the place. And at the end of the time we had seven tanks on each side. And the management of those fuel tanks to keep the centre of gravity where it belonged and to ensure that they didn’t run out of fuel at an inappropriate moment kept the flight engineer extremely busy. That was great. But that’s how the Halifax developed and that’s how the duties of the flight engineer developed. Very much looking at fuel and obviously watching the engine instruments. Looking for any unfortunate things. The Halifax had very early Merlins. Merlin engines. Which were subject to internal coolant leaks which often resulted in having to switch the engine off. This again was the duty of the flight engineer to watch for this. When we changed over to the Lancasters only I did forty seven trips on Halifaxes. When we changed over to the Lancaster it was a whole different ball game. Now we had only four main tanks. Two in each wing and a little tank. Fuel management was simple and straightforward. The engines were Packard built Merlins which were not, they had a revised design of the engine cylinder block which reduced the chance of internal glycol leaks. So we didn’t have the trouble with the engine overheating or having to shut the engine down. The Lancaster was a whole better ball game. But so much so that on the Lancaster really the flight engineer was not fully occupied. Apart from being, acting as a cheap co-pilot. Remember, it takes a lot of time and money to train a co-pilot. You can get a flight engineer for a much lower price. Put him in the right hand seat. He can act as the co-pilot anyway. And that’s really how the flight engineers role developed.
[recording paused]
TS: But when you get on to the Lancasters where there isn’t the problems with the engines that we had on the Halifax the flight engineer was not as fully occupied. And Don Bennett, the chief of Pathfinders, Air Vice Marshall DCT Bennett had said that he wanted two navigators on a nav table and the flight engineers — he can still learn to drop the bombs. And so, on Pathfinders the flight engineer ended up very much as being both the flight engineer, and co-pilot and bomb aimer all wrapped into one. But there was duties spread through the flight. That made the flight engineer’s job much more interesting. Dropping, aiming bombs, particularly when you got on to flying with master bombers where you were putting the markers down it was a much more interesting job than as it had been originally on Lancasters.
AP: So if we talk a little bit about the actual Pathfinding squadron and what they did.
TS: Pathfinders were that developed. I was, I didn’t, I joined Pathfinders the month they started. I didn’t do the first Pathfinder raid but I did do the second Pathfinder raid and I stayed on Pathfinders until the end of the war. And I saw the developments as they happened. As I say one of the early ones was getting H2S. We had a decent radar picture. The important thing, the techniques developed we ended up basically with three basic types. There’s the visual mark. Visual marking where everything was done by looking at the ground, aided by the radar of course, which was the straightforward one. Then of course we had the problem with cloud cover and a load of other [unclear] which was led by radar particularly when we got, when Oboe came in close range. Oboe markers can be put down from the UK very, very accurately. And when we were outside radar range we had to develop radar assisted bombing which was bombing through cloud. Which worked up to a point. The worst, the most trickiest one was when we had very high cloud. No chance of seeing the ground at all. And we’d use these sky markers which were flares which burst at a very high altitude and gave a false aiming point. Obviously if you’re aiming for something in the clouds, on top of the clouds, the bomb doesn’t know it. It wants to go underneath. It goes through the marker, carries on falling so the sky markers, as they were called were very tricky for the main force to use because they were aiming at something and their bombs were going to hit something else. They were the three basic types. There were various variations on those three. But basically you’ve got the visual marking, you’ve got radar assisted marking and you had sky marking. They were three basic types.
AP: Could you talk a little bit about H2S and Oboe? What they are.
TS: Oh, H2S was the, if you look at a picture of a Lanc you’ll see a bulge. A bulge underneath. That conceal is made of material which is, does not interfere with radar. A fibreglass substance. And inside that is a scanner going around painting a picture on a cathode ray tube of what it can see underneath. It’s a very crude form of television really. It shows the sea and the land as separate colours. It shows built up areas where you’ve got a lot of windows and things. Windows and roofs and the sloping of roofs deflects the radar and that gives a different sort of picture. But that was the H2S which we were very lucky. We were one of the first. Pathfinders had H2S before it was in general use. And the other one I mentioned was Oboe. Oboe is, was originally used for Mosquitoes because it depends on line of sight from the UK and involves the development of the system the Germans had used to bomb Coventry where you have radio beams. It was the British development. It was more accurate and involved the bombs actually being released automatically by the Oboe system. They were, the pilot flew down one radio beam and when he crossed the other beam the bombs were released automatically. It was extremely accurate. We’re talking in sort of a hundred metres radius. It was very very good. Unfortunately, the range was limited by this line of sight. The Mosquito was, because it was able to fly higher than Lancs ever could could take the Oboe bombing further into the mainland of Germany. Or France anyway. After D-Day they put mobile Oboe stations on the continent and Oboe was able, range was able to move forward. We did have Oboe in a Lanc on 582 Squadron. And I went on the first Lancaster Oboe raid with Group Captain Grant who was the squadron commander of 109 Squadron. The Oboe squadron. And we did the first Oboe raid over France from a Lancaster. I must admit I did not enjoy it because having put Oboe into the thing the pilot and the Oboe operator had to have their own intercom system but nobody else could use it. So, about a few minutes before the target, something like six or seven minutes from the target the rest of the crew were off. Off intercom. And you just flew straight and level to the target. Fighters coming in. Ack ack. So what? You couldn’t tell anybody [laughs] That’s the bit of Oboe I didn’t like on Lancasters. But it worked. Fortunately, I did the first one to prove that it could. After that I let somebody else come [laughs]
AP: And this, this is just marking. You weren’t dropping any bombs at this stage were you?
TS: No. We were dropping the markers. The target indicators.
AP: Dropping the markers. Yeah. Yeah.
TS: The target indicators. I should have explained. The target indicators were a giant firework. You had a, the shell of a one thousand pound bomb. Inside it were a can, little canisters which were ignited when the bomb burst and they put down coloured candles. They burst normally at about three thousand feet over the target. So there was the cascade of coloured candles falling from the bomb over, over the target area. Hopefully over the target itself. This gave the main force an aiming point. Something to aim at. A coloured cluster of fireworks. Well the, if they were put down by Oboe initially they were in one colour. To keep the marking going because Oboe could only operate one aircraft at a time over the target we were main, on Pathfinders, came over with different colour markers and tried to aim at the original aiming point to keep the mark alive for the rest of the raid. You’ve got to remember some of the raids took us twenty or thirty minutes. The Pathfinders job when there was an Oboe raid was to keep the initial marking going on the same aiming point.
AP: Was this particular colours? Did they use particular colours?
TS: Oh yes. Primary. Usually the main colour was red. The primary marker was so that the master bomber could say, ‘Bomb the red TIs.’ When we’re backing up we were usually backing above a green. And there were yellows used for some things. Because we also used markers on the turning points on the, on the way in. When you’re going into a target you don’t go straight in because the Germans can see which way, where you are aiming. You do a dog leg or something. Well, to mark a turning point we used markers dropped by Pathfinders on the turning point. And they were usually yellow or something like that. Not, not reds. And that was basically what those TIs, as we called them. TIs. Target Indicators. They’re just giant fireworks but they seemed to work and they were visible from a long way away.
AP: And while you were doing this you’ve got ack ack and night fighters and all sorts of things.
TS: Well, you do. They do try and distract you a little [laughs] The gunners are on the, on the ball the whole time. Swinging their turrets and watching for everything. Providing the fighters are seen and are not too close before you see them the thing you’d do, there was a escape manoeuvre.
AP: Yeah.
TS: Corkscrew was the usual. The standard procedure. If you got a fighter high on the port side you corkscrew port down. If it was up on the starboard you corkscrew starboard down. If they were low down you still did a corkscrew. The corkscrew is just you are following the path of the corkscrew which keeps the gunner, the enemy’s shot on a constant deflection shot. And what you are trying to do really is just spoil his deflection shot. The deflection is changing the whole time in to the corkscrew. Hopefully that happens to miss. Ack ack. Well, it comes and goes. If it was close you could sometimes hear it rattling on the fuselage.
AP: What about predicted flak? Predicted flak.
TS: Well, predicted flak is, most of it is over the target they try to talk about predicted flak. But once they got the course in to the target they start filling the sky on the run in with flak from all sorts. Sometimes it gets you. Sometimes it doesn’t.
AP: Okay.
[recording paused]
AP: Okay. About the camera now. Right. Okay. Go
TS: You asked about how many raids I did. Well, I did forty seven on Halifaxes and then I, that is because on Pathfinders you didn’t do a single raid you did a double raid of forty five. Well, being me of course I did a couple extra. But my odd career really basically goes back to my second trip. The first trip I did was in a Halifax to Essen. Which is a good starting point. You know. They don’t come much tougher. And that was okay except I came back with a view that how the hell did he know we’d bombed Essen? But that was because early on in the war finding a target was a hell of a hit and miss affair. But anyway, for the next trip I was put on a raid to go to Nuremberg in a Halifax which at that time we’d only got five tanks. And I got together with the navigator and said, ‘Well, how many air miles are we doing?’ Because when you start thinking about fuel consumption in an aeroplane well fuel consumption depends on which way you’re flying. If you’re going downwind you go a lot farther than you do upwind. So work on air miles. That’s the number of miles you go through the air. Anyway, the navigator gave me the air miles and I looked at the fuel load and said, ‘It ain’t enough.’ And so being a cheeky eighteen or nineteen year old flight engineer freshly promoted from corporal to sergeant I went up to the squadron commander. The squadron leader in those days, and said, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip.’ To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing.’ Silly lad. He believed anything. But anyway we were a little short on fuel. In fact we crashed nearer to base than anybody else in the squadron. We actually ran out of fuel about three or four miles short of the airfield and came down in an untidy heap. I had given an ETA, estimated time of arrival, of no fuel. And the navigator had given an ETA of when we should be at base. Well, the navigator had us at base about five, five, four or five minutes before I said we’d run out of fuel. There was a little matter of errors. I was right. We did run out of fuel when I said but we hadn’t reached base. It was just down there ahead of us. And when I said that we were going to run out two engines on one side stopped. One side stopped developing any power so I went down the back and put on the cross feed pipe which put, the empty tank was running the two port engines to supply fuel to the two starboard engines so we had four engines running for a moment. And the skipper, in his wisdom said, ‘It’s time to get out of here.’ Gave the order to bale out. Seemed sensible at the time. Well, it was sensible except the fact we were carrying a co-pilot who was a captain from Whitleys, the other squadron on the station and the Whitley is very poorly heated. So, if you fly in a Whitley you put all the full Irvin suit on. That sheepskin lined leather suit, jacket and trousers. And he was a tall boy. Quite a well-built lad. And so the first thing that happened when skip said bale out, the navigator lifts his table up, pulled the hatch up from underneath him, puts his parachute on and jumps. He’s gone. The wireless operator, Len Thorpe was underneath the skipper’s seat on the port side and he was getting ready to go. And this great big teddy bear of a man with his Irvin suit on, oh he didn’t jump out. He probably couldn’t jump with all that on top of him. And he sat on the back of the hatch and put his feet out. That was alright. And then he tried to put his head out but it’s a very small hatch. From my position in the co-pilot’s seat I could see his backside sat up in the air but he wasn’t going anywhere. So, I wondered what the hell we’d do. Len Thorpe, down there, he looks and he’s [unclear] he summed it up quite quickly. He pointed me to go back a bit. So, I had to move back a bit so that Len could get up on the top step. And then they jumped. He jumped. And two bodies disappeared out of the escape hatch. Well, my, because of the Battle of Britain the pilots in Bomber Command sacrificed their pilot ‘chutes to Fighter Command for the Battle of Britain and the pilots in Bomber Command flew with a observer type ‘chute which was a harness. There was a separate pack for the harness. For the parachute itself. And there was a stowage under the seat I was standing on which contained the pilot’s parachute. The flight engineer’s job, when the two have gone out or three have gone out the nose is go under that there and get the pilot’s parachute. Great. But I went down there. Oh dear. The elastics to hold the pilot’s parachute were not fastened and the pilot’s parachute must have been sucked out with everything else. It wasn’t there. So I went back up to the step. I’ve got my parachute on by this time myself. I go back and sit and said to the skipper, ‘Sorry. Your parachute’s gone.’ About that time all four engines stopped and so we were obviously going down. So I jettisoned the escape hatch over the pilot’s head so that he could get out and then I went back at midships where there was another hatch in the roof with a ladder up to it. And I, in fact opened the hatch and was pushing it back when we hit the ground the first time. And I was flung forward against this ladder and I found myself cuddling a ladder. We were in the air temporarily until we came down for the second time. And we slithered along a bit and came to a rest. So I go, with the ladder handy, I’m gripping it. Up on to the roof and there’s the skipper coming out. I think we might be the only two left. The rear gunner, he’s gone around the back. All he had to do was turn his turret around and jump. Oh no. Our rear gunner suffered from night blindness which is not a great help for a rear gunner. He couldn’t find his harness, his parachute anyway. So, he was still inside the fuselage looking for his parachute when we hit the ground. We didn’t know this of course. So, we got out. Skipper and I were on the wing and about to jump off and wondering about all these cows running and doing the war dance around the aeroplane. And a voice from behind us says, ‘Wait for me.’ It’s our rear gunner. He never did find his parachute. And so the three of us ran to the edge of the, edge of this field dodging all these terribly upset, terribly upset cows and got to the edge of the airfield. Got a little fire on each engine. Glycol and stuff. Nothing serious. As we were stood there, and then as I said we were very close to the airfield and two ambulances turned up. And then the CO turned up. He had a quick word with the skipper. He kept well away from me [laughs] and I think after that he’d got the idea that maybe flight engineers do understand a bit about aeroplanes. I’ll only say this. Many years later squadron leaders, our wing commander and squadron, and CO of the 35 Squadron in Pathfinders. I’m the flight engineer leader, a flight lieutenant and when the CO wanted to fly guess who he took as his flight engineer? [laughs]
AP: [unclear]
TS: But anyway we’d landed. We were in an untidy heap and this, of course this is, everything’s organised in the RAF. So there was a crash. Okay. Two ambulances turned up so because we hadn’t ,we were not really in walking distance of the base and so we go over to one of these ambulances, ‘Can you give us a lift back to the airfield?’ ‘No. I’m bodies only.’ ‘Oh’ [laughs ], ‘Catch the other one. You’re not injured are you?’ ‘No.’ I can’t lie. How am I injured? Eventually they sent out a guard party to look after the wreck overnight and one of those they, they, we got the driver out and he ran us back to the airfield. Another interesting thing is of the three blokes that baled out two of them ended up on the same train. The one had landed next to the railway, stopped a goods train and sort of, the driver said, ‘Well, what do you want?’ ‘I baled out.’ ‘Oh get in the guard‘s van. We’re going in to York,’ sort of thing. He goes a little bit further on. There’s another bloke waiting with a parachute waving. So he stopped, he said, ‘Your mate’s in the guard van.’ The other fellow hadn’t get a lift with the train but with the bloke with a car. He got back. Anyway, they all got back safely. The three got back safely. But that was my first endeavour. Rather gave me a reputation I think. Because the result of that I think was that when the Halifaxes were moved we were on the first Halifax squadron. When another squadron was going to get Halifaxes they had to be trained on how to fly a Halifax. The usual way was to take an experienced crew from one squadron, move them to the other squadron with one Halifax and they were to train the new squadron. Well, a good idea. So they got a squadron. 102 Squadron got, was going to get Halifaxes. And so they sent a qualified crew. Except I think the CO wanted to see the back of me. I’d only done four trips. I was not an experienced, but I was the flight engineer on the experienced crew that went to 102 Squadron. There I was. I had done four trips. I was on this new squadron teaching people how to, all about the Halifaxes. That’s how my odd career, career started. Because I was there and I was the only experienced flight engineer when the new squadron commander was going to do his first trip on the Halifax he wanted an experienced flight engineer. So, I went with him didn’t I? And when each flight commander wanted their first trip on the Halifax who was the flight engineer? So, and then I went down, down the list until I’d flown pretty well with every pilot on their first trip. And I was an instructor. Not what I’d intended to be. But anyway I ended up with a total of fifteen trips and Pathfinders started. Well, the Canadian crew, they wanted to go down, the Canadian pilot and navigator wanted to go to Pathfinders. They wanted to volunteer for Pathfinders. Their flight engineer didn’t and the silly bloke had talked me into joining him. So, that’s how I left 102 Squadron and went to, back to 35. On Pathfinders this time. That’s how I got onto Pathfinders. Okay.
[recording paused]
AP: The number of ops. Ops you did.
TS: Okay. Well, as I said I had done fifteen ops on 102 and 35 when I, this Canadian talked me into going to Pathfinders. So, I arrived at Pathfinders with just fifteen trips under my belt. I stayed on Halifaxes on Pathfinders until I finished my double, what was called a double mission. A mission is normally, for most of the main force was thirty trips. And then Pathfinders, when you volunteered to join Pathfinders you volunteered to do a double mission. A double mission was forty five trips. In fact I did forty seven on Halifaxes. And then I was screened and I went to the Navigation Training Unit of the Pathfinders and there was a bit of a problem on 7 Squadron. They’d lost the CO and a couple of flight commanders and all sorts of the top brass. They came to the Navigation Training Unit. They wanted a bit of strength back in 7 Squadron. I was asked to volunteer. I’d been screened for a couple of weeks by then. So I went back to, on to Pathfinders with 7 Squadron. The only thing was when I got to 7 is, well I knew before I went they were flying Lancasters. I’d flown in a Lancaster once. I’d read the book. So I joined 7 Squadron with no formal training at all having read the pilot’s notes. And I stayed on 7, on Pathfinders. Eventually did another sixty one ops on Lancasters. Giving me a grand total of a hundred and eight which is ridiculous. Nobody should do that. I don’t know how I did it. I know I changed, and I mentioned on 102, I flew with every Tom, Dick and every flight commander, CO and that gave me a number of different skippers. I then went back. Went on to Pathfinders and I did, I did, I think I did about thirty with this Canadian crew I went with. I did some odd ones. And then the turmoil started that they discovered 102 Squadron had put me up for a commission. Because they didn’t commission flight engineers early on. Because when I saw Wally Lashbrook, who was the instructor there called me in and said, ‘What do you think about taking a flight, a commission.’ I said, ‘Don’t be silly. They don’t commission flight engineers.’ He said, ‘Well maybe they’re going to. Would you? Can I put you forward?’ I said, ‘Yes. Why not?’ Well, actually, I did, I did ask him what he thought because I’m a Halton Brat. I went to Halton when I was fifteen. And the flight commander was Wally Lashbrook and he was a Halton Brat. So, on his advice I said, ‘Yes. Okay. Put me in for a commission,’ which led to the situation that I was on 102, I was now on Pathfinders. They didn’t know anything about commissioned flight engineers. I called in to the adjutant and he said, ‘They want you for an interview at the Air Ministry. What’s that for?’ I said, ‘I don’t know. Wait and see.’ Anyway, I was on ops one night and I was due to go to Air Ministry the next morning. Okay. So, down at Graveley, which is very close to London. It’s in Huntingdonshire and the railway station not far away. So anyway I did the trip, came back. Went in the uniform. Changed in the barrack. Changed in to my best blue, had a wash and a shave and caught the train to London. Which meant I then had to go in for this interview with the Air Ministry. Okay. Well, I’d been up all night remember. And they called me in. And one of those looked at me and said, ‘Where were you last night, lad.’ So, I gave them the name of the target. After that the interview was a walk over [laughs] Anyway, so I got through all that alright and I went back to the squadron. Several weeks later I’m called, the adjutant called me in. He said, ‘I don’t know how this happened but you’ve been commissioned.’ I said, ‘Yeah. I thought I might.’ He said, ‘You’d better go and get a uniform.’ So, I went up to London to one of the tailors. Bought myself a uniform. Go back. I’m a pilot officer now. The adjutant, they called me in again, ‘We’ve only got a [unclear] for a flight lieutenant. You’ll have to be a flight lieutenant.’ So, I’d been a pilot officer for several days and back to London to get some more stripes on my uniform. So, I was rather quickly a flight lieutenant and I got a job. I was obviously a flight engineer leader. Which again meant me flying with all sorts of odd bods. Which again meant that I went over, way over the odds. I flew with people, I said there was Hank Malcolm the Canadian I mentioned. I did thirty trips with him. That was alright. Later on I flew with a Welshman called Davies. Came from Swansea. I did thirty trips with him. I say I did all these thirty trips.
AP: What about Cheshire? Do you remember Cheshire much?
TS: Cheshire was my first flight commander on 35 Squadron. Didn’t like him very much. Never did.
AP: And Lancasters. Any particular missions that you remember? Operations that stick out?
TS: Very difficult. I can’t remember where it was, but once over the Ruhr Valley I didn’t enjoy life. We came, I think we’d been to Berlin and on the way back we’d gone a bit off course. As far as I remember we’d lost an engine or something over Berlin. Probably this oil stuff. It started again but we got radioed, the distant reading radio compass was not — distant reading compass sorry was not reading very accurately and keeping on course had been difficult. And instead of coming from Berlin just around the corner of the Happy Valley between Essen and Aachen and cutting through that way had got a bit off course and found ourselves over the Ruhr. There wasn’t a raid on the Ruhr. Just us odd bods coming back from Berlin. And they did rather catch us in the searchlights and flak for quite a long time. That’s one of the worst occasions of enemy opposition where it wasn’t so much that we were being shot at and we were being illuminated by the searchlights. We couldn’t get out of the damned things for about twenty minutes. Dashing around. I thought we were never going to get out of that. But anyway, Hank put the aeroplane in all sorts of manoeuvres and we got out of it but that was one of the worst occasions. Not being bomb caught over the target but caught off course on the way back. That was always the danger. You, you expect to be shot at over the target but you try and avoid it on route there and back. We hadn’t on that occasion. That was one of the worst trips anyway as far as that.
AP: Any raids in Northern France and Holland? Any raids there with Lancasters?
TS: Oh just before D-Day we were doing all sorts of silly things. I had the, this disputed honour of actually acting as master bomber on one of the raids on a little airfield in Northern France. What was the name of it? I can’t think of the name at the moment. I was flying with a Welshman on this occasion. And they wanted, around about D-Day there were all sorts of little raids. They needed a master bomber on a very small airfield and they suddenly decided that the skipper’s Welsh accent would not do. So I was then told to do the broadcast over the target, drop the bombs and sort of encourage people to come down and bomb the target. Tell them what to bomb. The cloud base was low. We got down low. We could see the target. I got my markers on the target. Could I persuade anybody else to come down to do it? No. They were all bombing from way up. Not doing very well anyway. We lost two aircraft on that trip. But I was actually, I think the only occasion when a flight engineer has held the microphone and acted as master bomber and told them where to bomb. It was a, have a change.
AP: And all those operations that you flew. Did, I’m guessing you must have seen other aircraft being shot down.
TS: Yeah. Of course I did.
AP: I mean, one of the things to try and describe to people is what it was like when you were flying through all that stuff
TS: Oh well —
AP: And what you saw. What people said. What they felt.
TS: It was very difficult early on. You get the odd one. Usually they caught fire and went down in flames and some parachutes would come out. You hoped more of them did. Later on, when the, towards the end the Germans had developed this, what they called musical jazz. Which was the night fighters were equipped with upward firing guns in the top of the fuselage. At an angle. And they did not use tracer. The idea was to fly on radar low down where you couldn’t be, where there was less chance of being seen by the top gunner or the rear gunner. Come up below the aircraft and when they were in the right position climb fairly steeply and let their cannons into the belly of the bomber. Very good idea. We’d had it years ago. When I was at Boscombe Down many years ago we had a Boston which had been modified with [pause] like bomb doors on the top of the fuselage and the bomb doors opened and there were four machine guns pointing upwards. Just like musical jazz, and there were only three of these. And we never developed it but the Germans did. That was what, that was the one of the games the RAF definitely lost. The main advantage having, before I started flying as a flight engineer I’d been an ordinary fitter who wanted to be a pilot. And I was fortunate in my postings. I was posted to Boscombe Down. Which meant I saw far more different aircraft than most people when they came out of Halton. And I worked on many including the first bloody Stirling bomber. Four engine. They had a position for flight engineer. ‘It’s your aeroplane. You fly.’ That was how I learned, you know, start flying. But I didn’t want to be a flight engineer. I’d been trying to be a pilot. But I was only an AC1. So I saw the flight commander. He said, ‘You’ve got to be an LAC if you want to go on a pilot’s course.’ So I did the trade tests and I got passed it and I was an LAC. Good. Go back to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I want a pilot’s course.’ ‘You have to be an LAC for six months. Then you can come and see me again.’ Five months later, ‘Oh hello Corporal Stocker,’ I goes in, ‘You can’t be a pilot now. You’re too valuable. You’re a corporal fitter.’ ‘Okay.’ I’m working in the hangar one day and the flight clerk comes up. And he’s got an AMO. He says, ‘The flight commander thinks you might look at this.’ It was the first AMO asking, Air Ministry Order, asking for volunteers to fly as flight engineer. If you’re a corporal or a sergeant in the group one trade you can volunteer to be a flight engineer. I think the flight commander had a clue I might be interested [laughs] and so I went back with the flight clerk and volunteered. And a few weeks later I was on an air gunner’s course. And that’s how I became a flight engineer. I don’t know how I did it. But anyway the basic thing is I did chance my arm rather more than most and got away with it with a hundred and eight raids. How the hell I did it I don’t know but I’m lucky. That’s how it happened. My first flight commander was Flight Lieutenant Cheshire. Oh dear. What can I add to that?
AP: Yeah. But let’s, let’s jump to that. Up the Island of Walcheren. Can you talk about that raid?
TS: Oh, one of the most interesting raids. The war was nearly over but there wasn’t a great deal of opposition anyway and they wanted to sink — the Island of Walcheren at the mouth of the Scheldt was really guarding the entrance to Northern Germany. They’d tried to get across. Across. Been an unsuccessful attempt by the army to do a landing on the south coast of Walcheren Island. They lost a lot of soldiers. And then they decided they might be better to, for a frontal attack but they need to get the Hun out of the way. So, we were, I was bomb aimer with the master bomber. The master bomber was Group Captain Peter Cribb. He had been on thirty. He took over from Cheshire as flight commander of 35 Squadron way back in 4 Group. Anyway, he was the master bomber, I was his bomb aimer and we went over to Walcheren Island. Oboe had put down a marker on the seashore and we put, put another marker beside it. And then we were getting, I think it was sixty aircraft every twenty minutes. I’m not sure about that number. It might have been less. And we directed them on to the markers right on the seashore and we managed to breach the dyke. And the sea water went through and started flooding the Island of Walcheren. There was an ack ack battery on the other side of the town from where we were which fired the odd shots but we had some thousand pound bombs. A couple. Four or something. So between two raids the sharp turn to port and I dropped my four one thousand pounders in the vicinity of this ack ack battery and had the good fortune to watch the brave German gunners get on their bikes and ride down the Island in the middle of the lake. They left us to it. So, really it wasn’t, there was no real opposition there. But anyway, we carried on with all these little raids and gradually made the dyke leak and the island was flooding behind. The last raid, the last batch of bombers we were getting were from 617 Squadron. They had their Tallboys. They were really going to knock a hole in that dyke. Well, we looked at the dyke and the sea was going in. The skipper called them up and said, ‘Go home. We don’t need you.’ Which, for the Pathfinders was always a good idea because Pathfinders and 5 Group which were Cochrane’s favourite Air Force were not really the best of friends. Cochrane didn’t approve of Pathfinders and Don Bennett who ran Pathfinders didn’t really approve of Cochrane because Cochrane had never actually been on a raid. Our AOC, Air Vice Marshall Donald Bennett had been on a raid. He’d been shot down in Norway. He knew what, he knew the score. That made the difference. He had a different outlook. But actually that was an interesting raid and when I was working in Holland after the war we did, I did go back there with my wife. And we went and had a look, and yes there’s a nice little puddle where we’d broken the dyke and there’s a bit of sand around the edge and somebody has opened a café there. So we got somebody in business anyway.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Two
Creator
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Andrew Panton
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-31
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE150731, PStockerEE1601
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:52:44 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Edward Ernest Stocker (Ted) began his service with the RAF as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. He came to the attention of his Commanding Officer on his second operation, having warned before departure that they were carrying insufficient fuel to make it back to base. He was correct and he describes how some of the crew baled out before their Halifax crashed close to base with he and the pilot still on board. He joined the Pathfinders force after fifteen operations and remained with the Pathfinders throughout the war. He compares the fuel tanks of the Halifax and Lancasters, discusses the navigation aids Oboe and H2S and the process of dropping target indicators for the main bombing force to follow. He completed 47 operations on Halifaxes and then volunteered for 7 Squadron on Lancasters, completing a further 61 operations. He was commissioned as a flight lieutenant. He speaks of encountering enemy opposition whilst in action, of witnessing aircraft being shot down and directing the bombing of Walcheren Island.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Walcheren
Temporal Coverage
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1944
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
Master Bomber
military service conditions
Oboe
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1068/11524/APeelE161018.2.mp3
eacf4f2401a4e09fb664da5db414fdf1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Peel, Eric
E Peel
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Eric Peel (b. 1916, 1495430 Royal Air Force). He served as ground personnel during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Peel, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Mr Eric Peel and the interview is taking place in Mr Peel’s home near Chester on the 18th of October 2016. Eric, could I ask you please to tell us a little bit about your life when you were at school, your family background and so forth.
EP: I went to a school in Liverpool called Granby Street School which was a council school. I left school at fourteen. My family, my father was self-employed. He was a tailor. During his time he ran three shops. I’d, as I say left school at fourteen. My father had paid a sum of money for me to be trained on the Liverpool Cotton Exchange. And it was on the Liverpool Cotton Exchange that I worked until — in the meantime the war had been declared. 1939. Which I would have been then seventeen. And I was always interested in aircraft because my grandparents lived not very far from Mildenhall where the England to Australia Air Race started from. And I had been taken there where we could speak to the Meteorological people about the weather which was quite an experience for a boy. And then at Liverpool Speke Airport was founded. And as a twelve year old I can remember walking there to see the opening of Speke Airport when the RAF came in with their flights of Hawker Hinds and all those aircraft. Then of course the war was going on and things were happening in the Cotton Exchange which wouldn’t have happened in peacetime. And one of the partners there was an officer of the Territorial Army and certainly wanted me to join the Liverpool Regiment which was a tank regiment. My father said, ‘Oh no you’re not. You’re not going in tanks.’ And of course I had this interest in aircraft and I was walking through and I saw an advertisement, a recruitment office actually, saying how about joining the RAF. Well that was, oh great. And so I went inside and came out having joined up in the RAF VR — the Voluntary Reserve. And they told me I’d just have to wait until the right time came. And I was actually nineteen when the, I actually got called up in to the RAF. And from there, the day I was called up I was, I went to Padgate and there at Padgate they gave me a number and a uniform. And after a few days off I went to Blackpool. And in Blackpool I had all the injections and those sort of things. But when I first enlisted I thought I was going to be an air gunner. And that’s what I wanted to be. I didn’t. Actually I was glad I was never an air gunner [laughs] but there we are. But I was told that because I wore glasses that I couldn’t be aircrew. And so they said, ‘But you’d do plenty of flying if you became an armourer.’ And so that was what I became. An armourer in the RAF.
JM: Could we just go back a bit because from what you’ve said you must have been growing up in Liverpool during the Liverpool Blitz.
EP: The beginning of the Liverpool Blitz.
JM: Do you have any memories of those Blitz days?
EP: Yes. I can remember as, I can remember I had to do a couple of nights a week on fire watch duty in the office on the Liverpool Exchange. And also I can remember going home and in the back of the shop where we lived there was an air raid shelter. One of the brick built air raid shelters which covered not only our family but members of the other shops around about. And we all went in there and I can hear the bomb, we could hear the bombs going off. I saw the big Customs House in Liverpool burned out and we’d hear shrapnel coming down from the anti-aircraft fire. And most of the damage that I saw in those early days was around the dock area. Although we had a stray bomb in a street not very far from us. It must have been a small one because it completely took out one house out of a row. You see, and that’s —
JM: Were there casualties?
EP: There weren’t in that house. No. But there were many casualties on Merseyside in those first —
JM: Yes.
EP: But I was in the RAF when they had their major raids.
JM: Right. Right. And would you say that those memories of the Liverpool Blitz did they affect your view as to the assistance that you gave to damaging German cities? Was it in your mind?
EP: They probably did at the time but my thoughts have changed a great, great deal since then.
JM: Well, we’ll come to that later on but I’m just interested to know how you felt at the time.
EP: Well, I can’t really recollect how I did. I mean I, I was eager to do my part that everybody else was doing. Which meant that I must have had a feeling against the enemy you see but I don’t really feel that I had any what I’d say bitterness. I thought I was doing what everybody else was doing.
JM: I think that’s quite a common reaction from the gentlemen that I’ve, I’ve met. I do, Yes. Tell us, can you tell us any more about Padgate? This was a major centre wasn’t it?
EP: Yes. No. No. I can’t — Padgate, yes was a major centre. I know I got off the, the train at Warrington. Not Warrington. Padgate Station, the first station out of Warrington and there, there was a lorry waiting because there was a whole group of people like me with a case and all in our civvies you know. I don’t think I’d been out of shorts very long [laughs] But and then we got corralled into the back of this truck you see and we were all taken there. And when we got there we got the first of the sergeant major. Somebody bawling at us to do this, that and the other, you know, and that.
JM: I was going to ask how you adapted to the rigours of service life.
EP: Well, I grew up in just a very, very short time. I’d been very much protected. I had a loving mother and father and very caring. And I think that, well I really I think I was like any schoolboy really that had just starting up in life. I wasn’t used to people swearing. In fact in the RAF was the first, I can remember this quite clearly the first place I ever heard a woman use a swear word. A swear word. You see. And yes within two or three days I was a different person. But we didn’t stay in Padgate many, only two or three days as I can remember it and we were off to Blackpool, you see.
JM: Which was a major centre for RAF training throughout the war.
EP: That’s right. And I went in there and was there not a long time and I was off to Morecambe.
JM: Right.
EP: And in Morecambe I did my square bashing.
JM: Where did you stay when you were in Morecambe?
EP: In digs. A landlady had about four or five of us in her house. And I can remember she, she was a sergeant major [laughs] Kept us in our place and wasn’t going to have us do this that and the other. And we had to be in by a certain time. And —
JM: And what was the food like?
EP: I suppose it must have been acceptable [laughs] I can’t remember much about that you see. But I can remember in the, I was tall, six foot one. That’s what they listed me as and I was always called out in the square bashing as the marker because of my height.
JM: Yes.
EP: My height you see.
JM: Yes.
EP: And then from the right size you know. And they’d go right —
JM: And the marker was the person who stood at one end of a line or one corner —
EP: That’s right.
JM: Of a square.
EP: Yes. That’s right. And so I always got that you know. I wished I hadn’t, you know. It was always nice, particularly a bit later on when I did my armourer’s training.
JM: Did you find the drill easy to learn?
EP: I think so. I mean I always did what I was told and I don’t think I had much difficulty. I wasn’t very athletic and some of the, the tougher stuff I wasn’t very keen on.
JM: I was going to ask you about that. Did you have to do assault courses and —
EP: Not at there.
JM: No.
EP: I did an assault course later on in the RAF which was on the station defence.
JM: Right.
EP: Yeah.
JM: Right.
EP: But that wasn’t in Bomber Command.
JM: Well, let’s, let’s move on then because at the moment you’re at Morecambe and you’re doing what is really basic training I guess.
EP: That’s right. And that was six weeks. I can remember it being six weeks. And in that, you know we did all the drill movements and elementary rifle drill rather than what I think a soldier might have done. And from there then I went to Weeton which was near Blackpool.
JM: Right.
EP: And there I did armourer guns course.
JM: Right. So by that time you’d already been selected for an armourer.
EP: Yes.
JM: Yes.
EP: What I’d signed up for in those early days in Liverpool.
JM: Right.
EP: yeah. And I did the armourer’s gun course.
JM: This is most interesting. Could you tell us please how that course, how that training took place?
EP: Well, it started by a little bit of engineering work in that we were given a piece of metal and tools and we had to make an adjustable spanner. And I mean I’d never done a thing like that in my life. I was only just learning how to use a pen you see and, and we had to make this tool. And I think that took us about a week. And we were instructed in that. And then we came then to actual guns themselves, in taking them to pieces. But we were started with the old Lewis gun.
JM: Right. Yes.
EP: You see, and, and the Lee Enfield rifles. And I can’t remember the name of the, the revolvers and things like that.
JM: Perhaps a Smith and Wesson.
EP: They could, yes, the good names.
JM: Yes.
EP: Smith and Wesson. That’s it.
JM: Yes. Yeah. Yeah .
EP: Yes. Things like that. And taking them to pieces and cleaning them and putting them together again. Looking for faults in them and all that sort of business. We also learned then things like grenade discharges which went on the end of your rifle, you know and all that sort of business. And there you had to get forty percent to pass out. Sixty percent to become a fitter armourer which was one grade up from an ordinary armourer. But that meant that you had to be in training for another ten weeks after that and I didn’t want that so I turned down the opportunity. Which in later life I regretted because that was the only way you get good promotion. You see. But no and I then having done that course I was then posted to 56 OTU. Operational Training Unit at Sutton Bridge which is in Lincolnshire.
JM: It is.
EP: Yeah. And that was an Operational OTU in Hurricanes. And there I actually worked on the Hurricane aircraft. Loading and reloading both ammunition and the guns you see. And, and having been at Sutton Bridge and then moving about with them a little bit I was sent on a completion course as they called it which was the bombing side of the armourers course where we dealt with bombs and all that goes, that makes up a bomb. And the loading of them in to aircraft and all that sort. And also the, what we called fireworks. The —
JM: Pyrotechnics.
EP: That’s it. That and with things like gun carting and all those things. And I went to Kirkham for that.
JM: Right.
EP: And at Kirkham I was then, I had my first bomber station and that was at 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds.
JM: I wonder, before we go on to that could we just go back to your, your time at Sutton Bridge because I’m interested to know were the Hurricanes and their guns were they easy to maintain? Did you have any regular problems with them?
EP: No. I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I mean the guns came out regularly because it was an OTU.
JM: Yes.
EP: On operational charge.
JM: Yes.
EP: But so guns were firing every day so they were coming out every day and being cleaned every day. We were getting, we were mounting, the gun mounts were wearing. Of course that brought riggers in and working on that sort of thing. So guns were jumping the mounts and firing through their own wings.
JM: Yeah.
EP: You see and —
JM: I wondered because I associate Sutton Bridge with armament school. I wondered whether the guns were using incendiary rounds for marking and whether they actually affected the barrels of the guns.
EP: They were. Yes. There were incendiary bullets used in them because of — but we, we did fire on drogues.
JM: Right.
EP: And we did have a flight of Lysanders there that towed the drogues.
JM: Right. And I believe they painted the bullets so that when they went in —
EP: The bullets were dipped.
JM: Dipped.
EP: Yeah. They had a tray of paint and they coiled them and just —
JM: Oh I see —
EP: Dipped them in like that but —
JM: I often wondered about that. I imagined armourers painting the tip of each bullet but they just dipped it in.
EP: No. No. No. No. No. They just had a tray with usually red paint as I can remember it.
JM: Yes.
EP: Like that.
JM: Yeah.
EP: And as I say they drove all these up and just home, and you know, like that.
JM: And did you ever discuss it with the pilots there? Did they —
EP: No. No. No.
JM: You never saw them.
EP: No. With the Hurricane, in the Hurricane it was better because they were men who were coming to the end of their training. They were going straight from there to operational squadrons. And also we had the pilots who had been in the Battle of Britain and I actually flew with one that wore a leather mask his face had been so badly damaged. But he was flying again. And I can remember his name was Flight Lieutenant Gray and he, I was working on a, or had just worked on a Hurricane along with, I mean there were lots of us doing it. Don’t think it’s me. It’s a gang of us doing all this. And he just happened, said, ‘Do you want a flight boy?’ And he took me up in a Miles Master Mark 1 which had a Kestrel engine in it. Not the American engine. And that was my first aerial flight.
JM: To fly with a pilot with that background that must have stayed with you.
EP: Yes. And I never saw him again.
JM: Really.
EP: Never saw him again. He just, just, why he just put his hand on my shoulder, you know and I went in the back seat with him. I flew with Tiger Moths again but always in the front seat of a Tiger Moth.
JM: Right. Right. But fascinating. Now, can we go on now to the bombing aspect? Tell us please about the training you received in bombs and munitions.
EP: Well, we were, we first of all we were told the, what the bomb was made up of. I can’t remember now all the chemical names that went into it. And then we were told what exploded the bomb. Where we had the [pause] oh my mind’s gone. The thing that ignites it which was a tube of — well it was rather like a little pillbox and it had a tube and in the tube was the —
JM: Be an acid?
EP: The word would come to me. No. I can’t remember now. But yeah, the fulminated mercury. This was the, the, would be, go inside the bomb. Could either go in the nose or the tail. And we were trained on all that sort of business you see. We didn’t, didn’t actually handle it there. But what we did have was an all brass tool which was exactly the same as this thing that you ignited the bomb with. And every bomb, every bomb you had to put that in first because where they’d been manufactured they’d be greased and they could build up what was like very coarse Vaseline. And this was to protect them. But you had to get that out because if I mean you would get it so as it needed cleaning but if it hadn’t this fulminated mercury would have exploded in there. But if you put pressure on it.
JM: Right.
EP: You see and, and so that had to be done, and they’d, they’d teach, taught us how to do that. Then how to actually load it and then how to fix the tail. And then how that was attached the bomb carrier. The bomb carrier went in to the aircraft. And the only aircraft I ever worked on there was a Hampden. They never had a Wellington or a Lancaster in that course. And there, having trained with all that and a little bit on the pyrotechnics you went out to the squadron. And my first squadron was 103 Elsham Wolds.
JM: And when was it you arrived there?
EP: It must have been the winter of ’42 ’43. Yeah. But I wasn’t at Elsham Wolds very long before 3 flights — there weren’t many squadrons had three flights but 103 Squadron had three flights and we were moved to Kirmington. And Kirmington, when they moved they formed 166 Squadron of — 166 Squadron had been Wellingtons and the Lancasters of 3 Flight of C flight of 103 went there to form 166 Squadron then. And I went with it. But didn’t go with the aircraft. When I got there I was put in the bomb dump. And it was in the bomb dump I spent all my days after that. We’d sneak a go at the aircraft if we could but I mean we were always then — and all this business you see of what I didn’t say about the training we also there did the incendiary bombs.
JM: I was going to ask.
EP: And there, how they were packed and how we would pack them into containers and how they’d go into the bomb carriers as the bombs had done. And so we, we did incendiaries there.
JM: Could you just describe the incendiary bombs?
EP: If I [pause] yes. I would say they were eighteen inches long or something like that. Twelve — eighteen inches long. If my memory’s right they were eight and a half pounds in weight. And I think we had forty in a container.
JM: So they were like gigantic candles.
EP: That’s right. Is that, is that is that about eighteen inches? They were about like that. And like this but they weren’t round. They were — eights. Eights.
JM: Hexagonal.
EP: Is that, is that eight? [laughs] I don’t know. They were like that so one would pack against the other close up, you see, like that. And I think, I might be wrong here but I think there were forty in a container and I know that during my time working with them they were increased to a bigger size and a half. If they were that deep they went up and the container, we got bigger containers. So we were dropping more of them. And I spent a lot, I would say I spent two thirds of my time in bomb dumps on incendiaries. Loading and getting them ready for the aircraft.
JM: How were the incendiaries detonated?
EP: On impact.
JM: Right.
EP: Yeah. Because I have seen them go off where we are but they were also and these were introduced more I think in my time explosive incendiaries which did have an explosion in them but the explosion was ignited by the primitive compact. You see. Like that. That’s as I remember them now. I mean you’re drawing on things I’ve forgotten years ago.
JM: You’re doing well.
EP: Wanted. Wanted to forget as well.
JM: I’m sure.
EP: And, but as I say about, I would think three quarters of my Bomber Command bomb dump work was with the incendiaries. Packing and getting those. And as you said how did they go off? The bomb carriers we had weren’t always in perfect condition and if you turned them over you get one of those open on the floor. But fortunately that coming from eighteen thousand feet is a bit different from coming from five feet you see. Or bits like that. They were, [pause] they — I never knew one to go off having a container like that. I did know one go off to blow a man’s arm off but that was his own fault.
JM: Why do you say that?
EP: Because they were, the explosive part would break and they were, we were sitting out there in the — operations had either finished or weren’t on and there was one of these broken ones and he put the end of his cigarette light and it just went up. And I can remember I hadn’t been there very long. That was at Elsham Wolds. I hadn’t been there very long and it made me feel I had to go outside and be sick, and. Yeah. And like that. So they were very destructive.
JM: You sometimes see photographs of weapons, bombs being taken out to an aircraft and somebody has written something in chalk. Did that actually happen?
EP: Oh yes. Probably done it myself because other people were doing it.
JM: And what sort of things were written on the bomb?
EP: Nasty things. You know. And people would write a sort of from their girlfriends or something like that, you see. This is what you’d get in a, you know, on a —
JM: So there was a sense of revenge.
EP: Oh yes. There was there. Oh yes. That was quite common. I mean as I say the, the big, the thousand pounders and the five hundred pounders I had a, I’d say a third of my bombing was with them. And on those you that’s where you’d get them. Some of them had been written on them where they had been manufactured. I mean they’d come with it on. You see most of it that was done in the squadron was done with chalk. But you would get it done with paint. And that would be some that had come in, you see. And you’d also get messages on the tails done with some sort of pen or something of that sort. You know. But there we are.
JM: So, you, you were at Kirmington with 166.
EP: At Kirmington. Yes.
JM: And tell us a little bit about life at Kirmington. What was your accommodation like and when you were off duty what did you do?
EP: Don’t know. I don’t know. I know we drove out on our bikes if we got a standoff. Go out on our bikes to Grimsby. I can remember going like that. Of course that was another thing, the bike. We had bikes to go from our digs because we weren’t on the airfield. We didn’t live on the airfield. We lived in Nissen huts. Well, I would say quite a mile or so away from the airfield. But you’d go out on your bike and when you went to get your bike again it had been pinched.
JM: So you pinched somebody else’s then.
EP: Well that’s what went on.
JM: Yes. Yes.
EP: That’s what went on.
JM: ‘Cause Lincolnshire had quite a reputation for being a bleak place to serve. Was that your experience?
EP: It was bleak. Oh yes. And it were a place where the east wind and the snow could come down. And I mean they could be very, very hard and very, very cold. Yeah. And I spent quite a long time there. Yes.
JM: And what contact did you have, again with the Lancasters and the crews?
EP: There we didn’t have very much contact at all with the crews. We’d go along to see them taking off and in [pause] I think it would be Kirmington the entrance to the bomb dump, we had a big wooden hut and in there we had a fire and things there. And that’s where if we had a sergeant that’s where he’d spend his time. He’d walk around and see we were doing our stuff or if we were in a muddle he’d come and sort things out. Some of them were very good. Excellent. But we’d have in the, the fusing sheds we’d have, well I can only remember one corporal but a senior LAC would be there you see. And particularly in the fusing the time I spent in fusing you know you always had somebody there to see that you weren’t, you couldn’t be careless.
JM: No. You had to be very strict I imagine.
EP: Yes. We were. Very strict. And the detonators. Not fuses. The detonators. It’s just come to me. That’s right. And, and there they came. That was another job we had in the bomb dump was to examine all these things. They were, when the stocks came in you — that was set at a little building set apart which was for things like the detonators and those sort of things. And those detonators had to be handled very, very carefully. And we had a pair of tweezers but instead of the points going the other way because on the rim of this pill box which was in the detonator you put them in. They were made of brass. You couldn’t have anything that could had a spark in it. And your screwdrivers and everything else were brass. But you would put them in and that’s the way you would hold your detonator. Put it like that and you’d hold the thing, that would be and that’s how you put it into the back of the bomb you see. And then you had your pistol. I don’t know whether — yeah. They had the pistol, and amongst the pistols we had the straightforward ones but we had the time delay and we had the anti-handling pistols. There’s a story of an anti-handling pistol. Shall I tell you that?
JM: We ought to make it clear that a pistol isn’t a gun.
EP: No.
JM: It’s a component of the fuse.
EP: No. The pistol. The pistol is what fires the bomb. And it screws, and can screw in the nose of the bomb although very very seldom. In 1 Group and 3 Group it was nearly always in the back of the bomb. And that screws in the back. You’ve, you’ve put your detonator in. Then you screw that in. Then the tail goes in the end and in the tail there’s a pair of fingers which join up with the fingers which are in the back of the — and the wind, going down spins the firing needle right out. So when it hits the ground it goes forward and that hits the cap on the back of the detonator which fires the, the fulminated mercury which fires the bomb.
JM: That’s very clear. Thank you.
EP: Yeah.
JM: So tell us the story that you were going to.
EP: Yes. Well, you would get what were known as hang-ups and I was called one time by the sergeant, ‘Peel, come with me.’ And there’d been a hang up come back with an anti-handling device on it. So an anti-handling device you’d never touch. It was the only one I ever had any real sort of, real knowledge of. Anyway, we went out to this aircraft where this anti-handling, where this bomb was. A five hundred pounder. And it had been hung up in the aircraft. When the bomb doors opened it fell and it was on the ground you see. The aircraft was moved away from it and he said, ‘Come on. We’ve got to get rid of this,’ and he’d already got a hole, rather like a saucer. Not very big you see. And he said I want you to pack this — ’ and he had a, these days it would be a plastic bag but we had a sack if you like of gun cotton in it. And he had a discharger and a coil of cable. And anyway he’d arranged for this tractor and a trailer and between us we got, the three of us, we got this on the back of the bomb carrier. A bomb carrier. Not a trailer. And took it up to this hole that they had dug which was in the extreme part of the airfield. And we then rolled it off the carrier, rolled it down in to the pit. He sent me to pack it around with this gun cotton. And packed it all around the tail area you see where this anti-handling pistol was. Oh and the bomb and which it was there. And when we packed that around he then came and when he — I’d never done it before. I mean he said he couldn’t do it. He didn’t know how to do it. Nor did I. But he made this, and said, ‘Well, you do it.’ So I did it in the way we’d been told in training. Or as I remembered it being told in training. And he came and gave me the ends of the cable to put on the detonator. And then both of us went back and got down on the ground quite a long, long way from where it was. And he had the discharger and blew the thing up.
JM: I bet it went with a very big bang.
EP: It went with a very big bang [laughs] even though it was a five hundred pounder we could feel a tremble. Yeah. But that was my experience of an anti-handling device.
JM: Fascinating story.
EP: Yeah.
JM: Let’s have a pause there.
[recording paused]
JM: Eric, I must ask you were you ever scared?
EP: Yes. I was scared many times. I don’t think I was scared with the job I was doing. But I can remember laying, lying at night in bed when we’d finished duty and a Lancaster coming over and crashing on some other hut quite near to us. And I can remember being terrified that night. And I remember praying, ‘Oh Lord, get me out of this.’ I really was frightened that night because I could hear the screaming of the people. Not only the aircraft crew but the people in the hut. And if I remember rightly there were women involved as well. But that was nasty. And yes [pause] scared. It’s hard to say. I don’t know whether frightened and scared are the same. I was sometimes frightened of the orders that came and the people that gave them. Frightened that I might be on jankers for something or other. But I think yes I was scared. Many times. We’d get, we’d get incidents happen and I can’t really put my finger on them and say they were. I can tell you something which is in the RAF. Just a little while after this I’m talking about three of us in the bomb dump. We didn’t know at the time but three of us were called in to the armament office which was in headquarters on the station. Told to pack up and go. And we had to. We had to go, and we didn’t know what it meant. And anyway we had to just go back to the billet, get our kit, go to the station headquarters, get our pass and I went to RAF Locking. A hospital in, well Weston Super Mare. As I got to the station I met another one. One of my buddies. He’d been done the same. Going to RAF Hospital Ely. And why I can remember, I wanted to go to Ely because that was near my grandmother’s house in Suffolk you see. But he was there. And he told me that the third one had got, he hadn’t seen the third one had got a similar thing. And he, I don’t think he knew where he’d been sent to. And I went to Locking. When we got there they weren’t very pleased to have us there. It was the hospital and the officer commanding that station wasn’t very happy with us, with people like me being sent which was a rehabilitation. And there I was put in the station armoury who had a virtually retired flight sergeant. Lovely old man. Could well have been my grandfather. And a lady armament assistant. And I went as the armourer there. And on the station they had three sandbagged gun emplacement. And that was all I did for three months. Walked around these three sandbagged emplacements. Looked after this flight sergeant. Half a dozen or maybe more than that sten guns which were on the station. And that was all. And why I did that I don’t know. But while I was there a Stirling carrying a glider had to cast off the glider and the glider smashed in to the ground and it had twenty odd troops on board. Royal Engineers. And they were all killed. And on this Sunday afternoon it was going to the bridge over —
JM: Arnhem.
EP: Arnhem. Going to Arnhem. And on this Sunday afternoon I was called out. They brought all the bodies into Locking. And it was an old store. An old Nissen store and they were all laid out in that. And a RAF regiment had just started and the RAF regiment was, a RAF regiment officer, flight lieutenant. Hotel owner of the Isle of Man was there. And he, he called me and I was in the, in the billet. And he called me and he said that, ‘They’ve got a job for you.’ And he went with me and he’d got somebody, he’d got another sergeant from, I think a medic sergeant. And we had to go through because they were carrying all ammunition of various sorts. Hand grenades, stuff for blowing up bridges and they were Royal Engineers and had to go through all these bodies and there were bits of bodies and bodies with no heads. And I don’t want to go on really but it’s, that’s something that stuck with me all these years. And, but we had to get that before the people who were going to put the bodies in coffins could do it you see because there were all these explosives and they had to come out. And I will say that this flight lieutenant, he was lovely. He was like a father figure. And the sergeant was. And I can’t remember much about him but, but that was one of the worst incidents in my RAF career.
JM: You’ve told it with great sensitivity and respect. If something like that happened today people doing your job would have been offered counselling. Were you offered anything of that sort?
EP: No [laughs] No. And not long afterwards I was sent back to Bomber Command. This, this time to Scampton. And about four days in Scampton and they didn’t know what to do with me and sent me to Hemswell.
JM: Just up the road.
EP: Yes. Well, yes it was the satellite to Scampton in those days. Yeah. And there I was back in the bomb dump again. Yeah.
JM: But it is interesting that you saw such terrible things. And I want to ask you how did you get over that? How did you come to terms with what you’d seen?
EP: I don’t know. I don’t know. Joan would tell you that my first two or three years in the RAF she’d hear me talking and shouting in the night. But I don’t know whether it was that or just the whole of the other but even now occasionally I’ll get a smell. A smell of burnt flesh and that. Because I’d already seen the damage that, seen a tail gunner shot up. And you know the guns going out there. But I did, the few months that I was with 103 Squadron when I first went there I was with the aircraft there you see. With the Lancasters. And you would see, you know a plane like that come in with the tail shot up and a man just slumped there and then have to get him out you know. Then us have to get the guns and clean it all up.
JM: I’ve heard about that. It’s a grim story and you were involved in that.
EP: For the, yeah. And as I say when we, that was in C Flight of 103 Squadron. When we went to Kirmington I was pushed in to the bomb dump. Yes.
JM: Yes.
EP: Yeah.
JM: The other question that I would like to ask you, also a difficult one, did you think much about the effect of the bombs you were preparing on the enemy?
EP: I don’t think I did then. I’ve done many times since. In fact I still do. If, if I’ve got a, probably after this for several nights now I will think. But I, I think in the way, almost the way we almost rejoiced if it was a good raid. If we heard that all our planes returned or I mean we knew the planes of our own squadron stations didn’t return because I mean some of the stations had two and three. I don’t know if they had three squadrons but they’d have two squadrons on them. Yeah. But I don’t, I don’t think we gave it much thought really.
JM: It was a job you had to do.
EP: A job we did. And I mean when Alex told me you were coming all that went through my mind, ‘Well all I can tell this gentleman is that I did as I was told.’ And that I think is what we did really. We did as we were told. Did as we were commanded. Yeah. We met all sorts of people. Very nice people. Very nasty people.
JM: Tell us a bit more about that.
EP: Well, I don’t really know what to say. I mean — anyway.
JM: Would you like to stop for a moment?
EP: Well, yes. If you don’t mind. And then —
[recording paused]
EP: Great chaps that I worked with. The chaps that would help you. There were other chaps that — I don’t, I don’t think it came anybody that would be nasty in that way. I mean we held our own to one another. You’d make very good friends and you did miss them when you were posted to another place. What I haven’t mentioned and I think I ought to mention this, I went on another course as an armourer and I don’t think many armourers ever went on this course. I went on a course preparing to store chemical weapons. And I have on my arm here though it’s very, very pale now the mark of a gas burn which I went to a, on a course where there were about no more than about ten or a dozen of us on this course. In a little place near from Boscombe Down. In between Salisbury and Boscombe Down. I can’t tell you the name of the place. I can’t think I ever wanted to remember it. I don’t think it was anything that stuck because I went on this course and when I got back to the station and that would have been the last station I was on, that would have been on Hemswell we never had any facility for storing chemical weapons. Particularly mustard gas which were just in a, like a biscuit tin. A sealed biscuit tin. And the, to drop them they went in these containers. The same as what the incendiary bomb would go into. Go into that. And just impact on the ground would have burst the biscuit tin open. It was only just light, very light metal. And this was because it was believed that as the war was drawing towards an end the enemy could have used chemical weapons. And it was chlorine and mustard. And on this course which as I say was near, somewhere near Boscombe Down because they took us down to Boscombe Down RAF station which was an experimental station. And we went there and I think we just about sat in the truck all the time we were there waiting for something to happen which never did. But we used to go each day to this place there and have lectures on these bombs and how to handle them in there.
JM: Did you actually see the gas at all?
EP: I, we saw the mustard gas. That’s how I come to have.
JM: Right.
EP: This here. Because they showed us the effects of it and we were each supposed to put this on and then show the whatever the anti-gas was to be able to wipe it up. If in handling them you know you had one burst open and how to protect yourself from them, and we had to wear the actual suits that you had to wear which we’d say were like a plastic raincoat these day. You know, you’d have to wear one of those. But as I say when I went back to the station they didn’t know anything about it although they’d sent me on it.
JM: Yeah. Did you wear respirators when you were working with these?
EP: Not with the mustard gas we didn’t. But we did wear the chlorine but the chlorine were in like you’d see in a hospital with oxygen.
JM: Yes.
EP: Like that.
JM: Yes.
EP: And, but they never, they never released any of that. I mean when we, when we wore gas masks there only in gas mask training and we went through one of these places where you lifted the back up and took a whiff of it and that sort of business. Yes. But —
JM: Quite a frightening experience.
EP: That was all Bomber Command.
JM: Yes.
EP: And that was because, as I say it was thought that it might have to be used.
JM: So you went back to Hemswell where you saw out your war service.
EP: No. I was in, no sooner, I can’t remember VE day in the RAF. I think it was just an ordinary day. But not many days after that I went on two parades where squadrons were being disbanded. The two squadrons on. I think one of them was 150 Squadron. I can’t remember the other one. And they were disbanded. And then I was sent off to [pause] where did they send, was sent to dear? You do out here. Oh they were recruiting, recruiting RAF and WAAFs and I was made an acting sergeant to march these people around. And all I was doing was marching them to the square for the drill sergeants to take over and drill them. And do town patrols when people went out at night you had to — like Redcaps really but we weren’t Redcaps. We were acting. Acting unpaid. And there we did and also there I took WAAFs to Gaskell Street’s baths in Manchester. What’s the name of the place that’s just out here? Footballers buy their houses out there.
Other: Alderley Edge.
EP: No. No. No.
JM: Prestwich.
EP: No. Oh dear.
JM: So tell us please Eric about your demob from the Royal Air Force.
EP: My demob from the Royal Air Force. I went to Cardington. I went to RAF Cardington where the airships had been built and there they gave me a suit and a raincoat and sent me on my way. But I came home and I had my battle, I didn’t have my number one, I had my battle dress on as we were, just went as we were working. Came home. Went straight up to my girlfriend’s house. Came home you see and that was that. And when I look back on it well I made some good friends there but they weren’t friends that kept on. Perhaps that’s me. I, I’m not one for sort of joining old comrade’s associations and things like that. I was always a member of the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund. And I think when I got back my job at the Cotton Exchange had closed. All that had gone like the wind. And I did go to the RAF VR place in Liverpool when I got back and they weren’t very helpful. They didn’t really want to know. I think that the top of the matter was that there were too many of us that were just coming out and got no work to go to and were looking for help. And anyway, I just went the once and I felt that I was given the cold shoulder. You know, I said to you know to myself I wasn’t the right rank or all these sort of things you know. But there are times I feel that if I hadn’t had to go through those five and a half years in the RAF, six years, that life would have been somewhat different. I mean I’d have probably have gone straight through the cotton market. But as cotton went out to India perhaps I wouldn’t. You see. But as I look back now it’s given me a lot to think about over the years and a lot to, I think my own conscience. I couldn’t have been a conscientious objector. I know between right and wrong. And I think I would have had to. I don’t regret what I did. No. I don’t regret what I did and I think it helped me grow up. And I think it also made me so as I couldn’t just depend on other people all the time. I had to make decisions myself. And at ninety four I think it’s worked out all right and — yeah.
JM: Do you have any views on the way that Bomber Command was treated politically after the war?
EP: I did do. Oh, I still do now. I mean I, I told you we had our hut at the entrance of the, to the bomb dump. Right beside it we had a stand with a Lancaster in it and I mean I saw that change crews many times. Change aircraft many times where it would be our turn. He was one that didn’t come back. And people who, I mean some would just ignore you. Others would put their hand up to you or, or even shout a word to you and you’d that was perhaps the last word they ever shouted to an airman, you know. To another airman. So, I mean when I think of those sort of people I still do sometimes. Especially as my daughter, and daughter’s father in law is a man who did a couple of tours. You see, so I think of those as the heroes. And this is why when Alex said you know about coming to this. I thought I’ve got nothing to say, you see. They, they to me were the heroes and I mean for those people I shall always have the greatest admiration. I know there were some rogues amongst them but generally speaking, particularly after they’d done their first couple. And I think that, I think when they first came they were a little bit happy you know. You know. Thought it was going to be marvellous until they’d done one. Two. Yeah. But there we are.
JM: I’ve tried to take you through your service career. Are there any incidents or stories that I haven’t touched on that you’d like to record?
EP: I don’t think so. No. I don’t think so. I enjoyed the bit of flying that I had with them. But —
JM: Did you ever get to fly in a Lancaster?
EP: Yes. I did a trip in a Lancaster once. That was, and I worked on that as well. Not with bombs. With food. Err, oh hanna.
JM: Manna.
EP: Manna. Operation Manna. Hemswell didn’t fly from there but we were taken out from there to another, and I can’t remember the name of that station. In that area right close nearby. And we used to go there and bomb up with food. And one or two of us got the opportunity to go with them and we went on that. And —
JM: So you were sitting in the fuselage of a Lancaster —
EP: Sitting there. Sitting on an ammunition box by the wireless operator but was able to go back and stand under the astro and hold on to the, there. I’m sure the pilots did it on purpose to get us so that we’d fall down [laughs] They’d scoot. Yeah.
JM: What did you think of a Lancaster to fly in?
EP: Oh marvellous. Yeah. Marvellous. Yeah. Yeah. I always stand in awe if I see one go across.
JM: Yeah.
EP: You know. Yeah.
JM: Lovely.
EP: Yeah. Wonderful things.
JM: Were you offered the opportunity to go on what were called Cook’s Tours after the war?
EP: No.
JM: To see the bombed cities. I know some ground crews did that.
EP: No.
JM: I wondered whether you’d had that chance.
EP: No. No. I don’t know. Well, I think Hemswell, I don’t think any squadrons ever went back there.
JM: Right.
EP: I know, I mean I told you I was on the two that were disbanded from there.
JM: Yes. Yes.
EP: We did a big parade. A big military parade for that. But I don’t think because the last I heard of it was many years ago and it was a, they had these rockets there. Yeah.
JM: Eric, I think we’re bringing this interview to a close now. I want to thank you for giving me such a very detailed, balanced and very, very important interview. You’ve shown us a lot of the life of armourers and ground crew. Thank you very much indeed.
EP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Eric Peel
Creator
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Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APeelE161018
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:08:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Eric Peel worked in the Cotton Exchange in Liverpool before he volunteered for the RAF. He trained as an armourer and was initially posted to 56 Squadron at RAF Sutton Bridge where he worked on Hurricanes. He then was posted to 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds and accompanied the squadron when it moved to RAF Kirmington. Eric witnessed a number of cases of loss of life including a glider accident and recalled the sight of a Lancaster coming back with the rear gunner slumped in his turret. Eric loaded Lancasters with food for Operation Manna.
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
Temporal Coverage
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1945
103 Squadron
166 Squadron
bomb trolley
bombing
bombing up
fear
ground personnel
Hurricane
incendiary device
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kirmington
RAF Padgate
RAF Sutton Bridge
service vehicle
tractor
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/PStockerEE1601.2.jpg
dc2149cee1df664fefc275fb3f1a16c4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/560/8828/AStockerEE161013.2.mp3
a6ef8f8aef1748927c2931c8116ebbf3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Stocker, Ted
Edward Ernest Stocker DSO DFC
E E Stocker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Stocker, EE
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker DSO DFC (b. 1922, 573288 Royal Air Force). He flew 108 operations as a pilot and navigator with 7, 35, 102 and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-23
2016-08-30
2016-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: So, I’ll just introduce myself. Make sure this is working OK.
ES: OK?
DK: I, I — you’re sometimes beaten by the technology. So, it’s David Kavanagh inter— interviewing Flight Lieutenant Ted Stocker at his home on the 13th of October 2016. I’ll, I’ll just leave that there. If, if I keep looking down, I’m not being rude, I’m just making sure it’s, it’s going.
ES: Er, I’m one of the lucky ones I suppose. If you’ve seen how many trips I’ve done, you’ll know I’m a lucky one.
DK: No, I’ve seen the statistics and they’re terrifying. It’s — they’re covered in your book obviously. What I wanted to ask you was first of all, what were you doing immediately before the war?
ES: I was in the Air Force. I was an apprentice at RAF Halton. I joined the Air Force in 1938, January ‘38, and I — when the war started, they — it should have been a three year apprenticeship but when the war started, they cut it down. They [cough], I did two years and three months I think, so I was a bit short, but they, to make up for the shortcomings, we lost our Wednesday afternoon sports and Thursday afternoon, er, Friday afternoon, um, drill so they stopped the apprenticeship short and gave us accelerated apprenticeship, so I came out. Oh dear, I was still an apprentice — I was an apprentice when the war started because I heard Mr — I was on church parade. We were at church, um, on the 3rd of September and, um, the padre cut his sermon short to say that Chamberlain was talking on, on the BBC and we would go back early so we could actually get in the NAAFI to hear the Chamberlain broadcast. Remember, in those days there wasn’t — radios were expensive but they were all batteries and batteries cost more than you earned in a week, so that’s why we had to use the, the NAAFI to hear the broadcast. Anyway, we heard this broadcast and we’re now at war, which was very good, nice to know [cough] because — as I’d just heard that news, I walked out of the NAAFI to go back to get my irons to go to the cookhouse to get some food and, um, the war had been on for a good ten minutes, maybe a quarter of an hour, and there was a snotty little PTI corporal said, ‘You’re on a charge. You haven’t got your gas mask with you. Don’t you know there’s a war on? You’re supposed to be carrying your gas mask’. I hadn’t — there wasn’t a war on when I left the barrack room and that’s where I left my gas mask [slight laugh], so that was a good start to the war. Anyway, I carried on, er, 1940, in April, March or something, my, er, my apprenticeship was foreshortened and I was passed out as an aircraftman first class. When you’re an apprentice, you can pass out either as an AOC, which there was very few of them (I think in our entry there were two), and an AC1 which was the middle of the road and most of us did, and AC2 which was those who weren’t very bright. And there had — I had a very good posting really, I was posted to Boscombe Down. So, unlike most of the people, when they left their apprenticeship, they went to a squadron and whatever aircraft the squadron had that was the aircraft they worked on but, being lucky, and going to Boscombe I had all sorts of aeroplanes. We had the first prototype Stirling I, I worked on and we had all sorts of funny fighters we were getting. The RAF took over aircraft that the French had ordered but the Germans rather stopped the Americans delivering to them so we took over things like the Mohawk and things and, um, so I, I got into working as a fitter on all sorts of different aeroplanes and then I applied for — I went in to see the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like a pilot’s course’, and he said, ‘No, you can’t do a pilot’s course with AC1. You’ve got to be AOC before you can apply for a pilot’s course’. Anyway, I went back to work and did some — my trade test and became an AOC. I went back into the flight commander and said, ‘I’m an AOC now, can I have a pilot’s course?’ He said, ‘You’ve got to be an AOC for six months at least’. Unfortunately, five months later they made me a corporal, so now I can’t be a pilot because I’m too valuable but then the first of the four engine, as I say all those — I worked on the Stirling, the first of the four engine bombers, and, um, they came with an AMO. They wanted exceptional AOCs, corporals and sergeants and the fitters trades, fitter trades to become flight engineers because before the war, you didn’t have flight engineers because they didn’t have any four engine aircraft, apart from the Stirling, and so I thought — Stirling, Sunderland flying boat, and, um, so I thought well — I didn’t [slight laugh], I didn’t know about this AMO until the flight c—, um, the flight clerk came down — I was working on an aeroplane — with this bit of paper in his hand and said, ‘The flight commander thought you might like to read this’. It was the first, er, call for flight engineers and flight commander had his head in his hand on the right way. He thought that was the [unclear] tell about it so I went back with the flight commander, flight clerk to the flight commander and said, ‘I’d like to be a flight engineer’. Well, I got that, um, sort of got back to barracks, about — it must have been within forty-eight hours, they really were desperate, um, I was called back to the flight commander, given an hour warning, sent off to, off to — where was it in Scotland? Er, oh dear, just north of inverness, north-west from Inverness? I was off on a three week air gunner’s course. I didn’t want to be an air gunner, I wanted to be a flight engineer but, um, I did the three, this three week air gunner’s course, flying in some decrepit old airplanes, and I was then posted to 35 Squadron in Linton as a flight engineer on Halifaxes. I hadn’t done, apart from being a fitter and the three weeks’ air gunner course, I was now a flight engineer. Fortunately, at this, they got the crew but they hadn’t got the airplanes. Point of interest perhaps, my flight commander at that time was a guy called, er, Leonard Cheshire, Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire was my flight commander and —
DK: What were your feelings about Cheshire as a man?
ES: Well as a man [unclear], didn’t have a great understanding of aeroplanes, little or no knowledge of engineering but, um, he had the knack of flying the aeroplane. He could fly it quite well.
DK: Did you, did you fly with him at all?
ES: Only, er, local flying from the thing.
DK: And he was a competent pilot, was he?
ES: He was a — he seemed competent but a little bit slap happy. He talked myself and several other flight engineers, who were new to the squadron, up in the Halifax on a very nasty day in Yorkshire. We sort of took off straight into a cloud and he plugged into the intercom and said, ‘Now I’m running the engines on hot air because of the — to stop them icing up. I’m now going to switch two of them off onto cold air’. Of course, within about three minutes, they’d iced up and the engines had stopped. ‘Now you see what happens when you don’t use hot air’. Yes, I know but we’re flying in cloud at about three thousand feet somewhere over the Yorkshire Moors, no real radio, or any thought. It was a bit stupid. Stating the obvious.
DK: Was he a slightly eccentric man then?
ES: No, not slightly.
DK: No. OK. Completely [laugh].
ES: He was an academic from an academic background. I think he didn’t have a very high regard for engineers or any engineer, and, er, Paddy O’Kane was his flight engineer. He was an Irishman who kept — must have let his temper well under control.
DK: Were you, were you quite pleased to get down then after that flight?
ES: Oh, I wasn’t that — it was interesting. I thought I was too young to be too worried, I just didn’t like it. It knew it wasn’t the right thing to be doing [slight laugh] and, er, I messed about on the squadron there. As I said we were very short of aeroplanes, plenty of crews, there about three flight engineers to every engine, every aeroplane. But I just went back, a lot of us went back to working on the flights as a fitter, ordinary fitter again. And, um, I went there I think Ap— March or April ‘40. It wasn’t until October that I got a crew with an aeroplane, joined a crew and started operating over Germany. I wasn’t very impressed when we did start. We were supposed to be bombing Essen at night, and we — in those days they had very little in the way of range. When they dropped the bombs, I wasn’t that impressed. I said, ‘How –?’ I looked out and I couldn’t see how the hell they knew where they were, and listening to the navigator talking to the pilot, I don’t think he had that much of an idea. It was a very hit and run, well hit and miss, mainly miss, flying in the first few months of the war or the first few months when I started flying. But I, er, what did I do? Oh yes, I know. Early on, with the flight commander, by saying, briefing us for our second trip, ‘We’re going to Nuremberg#. It was rather a long way to Nuremberg from Yorkshire, particularly when we were flying in the early Halifaxes, which did not have as many fuel tanks as the later ones and I, being a sort of awkward bloke, I knew what fuel load we’d got and I had a chat with the navigator, he was another sergeant so I could talk to him, got the air miles and the fuel load and I did some sums. We haven’t got enough money to — enough fuel to get there and back let alone have a reserve and anyway, still being young and cheeky, I said to the flight commander, ‘Sir, I don’t think we’ve got enough fuel for this trip’. To which he replied, ‘Nonsense lad. Group know what they’re doing’. Well, they didn’t. We came back and I was keeping the throttles closed as much as I could, getting the best air miles out of it. We actually could see the airfield and when we crashed, we were almost within walking distance of the airfield [slight laugh].
DK: You just literally ran out of fuel?
ES: Yeah. Well, we ran out on one — because we were low, I was running, um, each side’s engines on all the tanks in that wing and, um, two engines stopped on one side, so I went down the back and put a cross feed on, um, and so I ran four engines off an empty tank but —
DK: So was anybody hurt in the crash or —
ES: Er, no. When we were sort of getting organised I, I‘d dumped the escape hatches over myself, the pilot and myself, and I was actually on — the skipper had started to bail the crew out. There should have been only two of us left in the aeroplane at that stage but the engines finally ran out of fuel and stopped and, er, we went down, hit the ground on a rather nasty bump, bounced over one hedge and landed in the next field and —
DK: So, there was just the pilot, yourself and one other still on board?
ES: Should have been the pilot and myself but we hit the field, the ground and bounced as I said. I was amidships with the hatch open there, the skipper was in his seat but the hatch over his head was missing, so when things grew to a halt, and the engines started burning, um, we decided to leave so the skipper came up on the wing next to me. I’d got onto the wing, which was the back edge of the wing because the undercarriage was up of course (when you’ve got to crash you don’t have the wheels down) and slid off the wing. The cows in the field didn’t like the intrusion. The skipper and I were looking around to find a quick way through and while we were doing so, a voice from behind said, ‘Wait for me’. It was the, um, the air gunner. He should be the first out. Unfortunately, he’d forgotten to take his parachute down the back. He’d left the parachute amidships by the door and he was actually in the fuselage, walking up the fuselage, to get this parachute pack when we hit the ground. Anyway, he got out alright and, um, we were going, er, out of the field and eventually, er, two ambulances arrived. ‘Are you injured?’ ‘No’. ‘OK, go away. This is for injured’. The other ambulance, ‘You’re not dead? This is for bodies’. So, we were still left there by the aeroplane and eventually the CO came over in his little car. As I say, we were within sight of the airfield when we actually hit the ground and the CO had driven over in his Hillman, and he sort of had a few words with the skipper. He kept well away from me. I told him we was short of fuel and I was bloody right [laugh]. But, um, he must have borne that in mind because, having done four operations with 35, um, I’m called in and told I’m going to a new squadron, where they‘re just going to get Halifaxes to instruct the flight engineers and pilots on the Halifax. I’d done four operations and there I am, I’m an instructor on 102 Squadron and obviously the CO at that time was a squadron leader, um, he’d got the message I might know what I’m talking about and there I was, an instructor. Much later on in the war he was the fli— squadron commander of the Pathfinder Squadron, I was the engineer leader and when he wanted to fly, guess who he took as his flight engineer? But, um, anyway I went to this 102 Squadron, had two qualified flying instructors to teach the pilots and things, and I had to explain the workings of the Halifax and things to the pi— new pilots and check up on the en— blokes that were posted in as engineers. And so there I was, twenty years old, telling these people. I said, um, the flight, flight commander who was the flying instructor, like me was an apprentice from Halton, trouble is he was about six years before me [laugh]. However, he thought, he must have thought I was making a good job of it, telling these people, because he suddenly called me into his office. He said, ’What do you think about taking a commission?’ A twenty-year-old sergeant. ‘Ay?’ I said, ‘Well you, you did it. What do you think?’ And he said, ’I think you should’. So, I suddenly found myself twenty years old, commissioned and — being commissioned anyway. I wasn’t actually commissioned at that time. I was put in for it. Later, on the Pathfinders, were starting and they were asking for crews and they asked for volunteers from other squadrons. There was a, a couple of Canadians, a pilot and navigator flew together, and they thought it would be a good idea to go to Pathfinders. Their flight engineer lived locally to New York so he wasn’t keen at all so, er, Hank, the skipper that was, he came to me and said, ‘We want a flight engineer. What do you think?’ I said, ‘OK. Put me down. I’ll go with you’, so I was posted to Pathfinders on 35 Squadron and, um, I was still a sergeant. And suddenly one day, the adjutant called, er, sent for me and I go to the adjutant’s office. The adjutant was sort of absolutely horrified, ‘You’ve been commissioned’, so I was the first flight engineer, one of the first flight — batch of flight engineers to be commissioned. Mind you, I did have to go for an interview at the Air Ministry first. It was quite an interesting one because at — down at Pathfinders at Graveley, which has its own station down the road to get straight into London, about an hour, three quarters of an hour ride to London so I knew, um, when I was told about this interview at the Air Ministry, I was flying that night. So went, you know, did my trip, came back, changed, had a shower, changed into my best blue, down the station and on the train up to Air Ministry for this bloody interview. I didn’t really know what it was all about but, er, they want to see me they can see me. So, I staggered into this interview thing and lots of sen— brass there, mainly group captains or wing commanders but there wasn’t a pilot or anything amongst them. They were all engineers you see, and, um, they didn’t know really know that much about it, they’d got to interview me and that was it. I sort of staggered in and I went asleep in the waiting room outside and they woke me up to go in, and I was sort of wiping the sleeping dust from my eyes as I went in for the interview. And one of these officious men obviously, um, thought I was on, been on the booze up in London that night, ‘Where were you last night?’ I gave them the name of the target [laugh]. Oh dear, atmosphere changed [laugh]. They gave me the wrong answer to the right question and, um, after that the interview went quite well. I ended up them telling them more about what went on than they knew about. Well, so that’s OK, so I’m told I’m commissioned, I go down to London with a bit of — coupons and some money and buy myself a uniform as a pilot officer. I go back to the office, back to the squadron and I get called in again, ‘We haven’t got a, what is it? An establishment for pilot officer flight engineer, only a flight lieutenant. You’re an acting flight lieutenant’. So I went, in about a matter of weeks, I went from a scruffy sergeant to a blown-up flight lieutenant [laugh] and I’ve been all sorts of flight lieutenant ever since. That was pilot officer acting flight lieutenant, flying officer acting flight lieutenant, war [unclear] flight lieutenant, end of the war flying officer acting flight lieutenant, er, proper flight lieutenant. There you go. I’ve been promoted to flight lieutenant so bloody often that I don’t know — but, um, that’s how it goes.
DK: So, so once you’re in the Pathfinder Squadron then, what was your — what did you do there? What were the Pathfinders doing?
ES: Well, it’s, um, the first thing they said was if you go into Pathfinders instead of doing thirty operations and being rested, you’ll do sixty. That didn’t last long. They cut those down to forty-five and —
DK: How did you fell about that, having to do two tours?
ES: Not too worried. I was young and stupid. Anyway, um, having being made a flight lieutenant, I was in charge of all the flight engineers, and when my crew finished their forty-seven, forty-five, they were posted away and I stayed on as flight engineer leader, and then suddenly somebody, something clicked, ‘Oh he shouldn’t be here, he’s done it’. And, um, I did, I did a couple more afterwards with other crews that hadn’t got an engineer at the time. And, um, shows you how stupid I was, I thought I’ve never, never tried — I’d like to try a trip as, um, a gunner so I volunteered to go on a trip as a mid-upper gunner on a flight just for the heck of it and, er, they suddenly realised I shouldn’t be there and I got posted straight away to a Training — a Pathfinder Training Unit. I arrived there just as 7 Squadron had taken a beating. They’d lost a squadron commander, two flight commanders and all the leaders. They had a hell of a time and so they suddenly they needed some experienced people in the Squadron, so they came to NTU to get them and, er, so they gathered — drew a few of us together and posted us to 7 Squadron. The only thing is, I hadn’t been there very long so before I knew where I was, I was back on op— on an operational squadron, on 7 Squadron, but they’d got Lancasters and I didn’t know a bloody thing about the Lancaster. The Halifax — I’d been on propeller courses, engine courses, er, aircraft course, airplane courses, everything and they had the, the Linc— the Lincolns. The Lancaster, I didn’t know anything about really apart from they had four Merlins and they were much the same as the Merlins in the, er, Halifax except they were made in America and had a better, er, better, um, type of — better design cylinder block, didn’t get internal leaks, and, um, I thought, ‘Well I must find out something about this aeroplane’. And I was still sort of feeling my way trying to find some books and things and they suddenly said, ‘You’re on ops tonight. Oh, and you’re a bomb aimer as well’. Because on Pathfinders, on Lancs, they used their flight engineer as a bomb aimer. Well, I don’t know a thing about bomb aiming and so they gave me a quick run through on the ground on how to set the bomb sight up and they said, ‘You better try it. Have a go’. They put, they put eight practice bombs on one of the Lancs then go off to a bombing raid, do my first bombing, eight, eight training ship. Trouble is, I dropped one and then the thing didn’t turn out right, the rest wouldn’t drop, so I had dropped one practice bomb. I was a bomb aimer with one practice and I’m on ops. I dropped four — about 80,000 tons of bombs, bombs that night, just practising [laugh] and that’s how life goes on.
DK: So as, as a flight engineer then, what did you prefer the Halifax or the Lancaster, once you got to know the Lancaster?
ES: If I was going to crash, I’d rather do it in a Lanc, in a Halifax. If I was going to go to war and not get shot at, I’d go in a Lanc. The Lanc was a much less sturdy aeroplane and it had the most diabolical position to bail out from. The, the door is right in front of the tail plane. On the Halifax the escape hatch in the fuselage is on the bottom corner of the fuselage and you dive out there, and the tail plane is way over. The only thing you’ve got to worry about is hitting the tail wheel. But, um, so if I had to bail out, I’d rather bail out of a Halifax and, um, I think I’d rather crash in a Halifax. It’s a much sturdier aeroplane, much — old fashioned pre-war des— design. The Lanc was a, a lash-up, um, it would never, it would never have flown, been allowed before the war because, um, aeroplanes had to fit in a hundred foot hangar. Well, the Manchester, which was the forerunner of the Lanc would go in a Halifax, in a hundred foot hangar, but when they took the Eag— Rolls Royce Eagles out and put a Merlin there, and then a bit of wing with another Merlin, that put an extra bit of wing on and the thing wouldn’t go in the hangar. So, it would, it would never have been allowed pre-war. But it, it gave an extra form of — the later Hali 3, they did have extended wing tips, they extended the wing on the Hali 3s which was a good solid aeroplane. I would like to have seen a Hali 3 with four Merlins, um, I think it would probably have been as good as the Lanc, but it didn’t —because it was built like — I was going to say a brick shit house [laugh]. As it was very well built, it didn’t have the same bomb carrying cap— capabilities and it didn’t have a bomb door, a bomb bay. The Lanc had this enormous long bomb bay which the Americans, the Americans saw that bomb bay and said, ‘Good God’, and so, um, you could you could carry a eight thousand pounder in a Halifax, which was two fours joined together, but it wouldn’t take any of the big things and it was very narrow and it had these extra bomb, er, bomb bays in the inner wing too. It wasn’t as well designed as the Lanc was. The Lanc wasn’t designed that way. It was a bit like Topsy. That was the way it grew. Yeah, I tried them both.
DK: As a flight engineer though, and purely as your role as a flight engineer, you preferred the Lancaster?
ES: Well on the Halifax, you had a much better instrument panel, you could see what’s going on, but you had a very complex fuel system. You started out with four tanks on the Hali 1s, early Hali 1As, that soon went to —from four tanks to — it went up again, and I think we ended up with 7 or 8 tanks in each wing and all little bits where they squeezed a bit in, um, which gave a very complex fuel system. To keep the CG right you had to keep messing about. I say the nose tank, number 2, which was on the leading edge of the wing, er, you couldn’t use that for landing or take off because of the change, sudden changes of altitude. So, the Halifax, you had — needed an engineer or somebody who knew what they were doing to manage the fuel system. The Lancs, with four bloody great tanks, you didn’t. Basically, you didn’t need a flight engineer on a Halifax, it was just another pair of hands, another pair of eyes and somebody else to keep an eye on the gauges —
DK: On the Lancaster, on the Lancaster, you didn’t need a flight engineer?
ES: No, but you did need somebody in the right hand seat.
DK: Right. OK. Yeah.
ES: And the flight engineer was cheaper than a, a co-pilot, a pilot, that’s really what it was, they were a cheap pilot substitute in a way.
DK: On the Lancaster so you didn’t need, really need a flight engineer on the Lancaster?
ES: Not as an engineer. I’ll tell you, the fuel cogs were two little handles but they had very big tanks. The Lanc, the Lanc, the original design of the Lanc was based on the premise that you would have sealed wings and there’d be a filler cap in the wing and you filled the wing up. But that meant that — that was fine until they said all tanks have got to be self-sealing, and you can’t put self-sealing on the outside of the tanks and that’s why they ended up putting little tanks in. But um, it’s a matter of history there. The Lanc arrived just at the right time. The Halifax was before its time and was outdated as soon as it arrived really but it was better than a Stirling.
DK: Yes. Did you fly ever on the Stirling or —
ES: Yes, I had, down at Boscombe.
DK: Not operationally though?
ES: No.
DK: No, no. So can you say a little about what the Pathfinders actually did and their, their role that was different to —
ES: Oh, quite different, um, initially it was a matter of, er, developing the technique. Don Bennett developed the tech— developed the, or developed the technique, I say, initially on Pathfinders, it was a matter — we had people going at H – 4 and dropping flares like mad and then other people following on trying to find the target. Later on, it got much more sophisticated. You still had the supporters and the important people in the H – 4. Supporters were supplied by the squadrons from the new boys in Pathfinders, this was in the opening stages. The crew in Pathfinders, first thing flying as a supporter, going in as H – 4 and, um, then later on getting promoted to being a flare dropper, still going in early, er, usually several rows of flare droppers, H – 4 and H – 2, and then you had the king-pins dropping the target markers, er, target indicators, from — with the light of the flares of the others and then once the master had put, um, put his marker on the target the supporters came along to keep it going. Basically, that’s all there was to it really, but it got a bit more sophisticated.
DK: Did you actually meet Don Bennett at this time?
ES: Oh yes. I knew, I met him.
DK: What did you think of, of Don Bennett?
ES: I — he didn’t need any crew. He knew it all. No, I was a great admirer of Don Bennett.
DK: You actually flew with him, did you?
ES: Yes, I did some — the first time we had a Hali 3 deli— delivered to, um, Graveley as a possible aircraft for Pathfinder Group because at that, at that stage we had Hali 2s, Lancs, Wellingtons, er, all in different squadrons. And Don wanted — was trying to get all his aircraft —
DK: Standardised —
ES: Same aircraft right through the Group, um, but anyway a Hali 3 had been sent to Bos— to Graveley for him to have a try. Well, he’d flown the Hali 2s and 1s, he was an experienced Halifax pilot but there was this Hali 3 he had been sent to try, so just he and I got into the aeroplane, nobody else, and he tried to fly the Hali 3. Well compared to the Hali 1s and 2s with four Merlins, four Hercules were a whole different proposition and one of the flight engineers’ job is following the pilot, as he opens the throttle, keep your hands behind so as if he moves his hands, the throttles won’t go back. And unfortunately, we were on the end of the runway, two of us in the aeroplane, not big fuel, no great fuel load, and he’s sort of half way up and I was following, and suddenly we were airborne. Now that was quite a different experience. Anyway completely opened the throttles, I held them and locked them open or locked them and that was his first experience of the Hali 3 and mine [laugh] but only the two of us in there anyway.
DK: But presumably, he then made the decision not the Hali 3, but go for the Lancaster then, did he?
ES: He flew the Hali 3 and he flew the Lanc.
DK: And he decided on the Lancaster then.
ES: Yeah, he was also — there was some talk of a teed-up Wellington with a pressure cabin.
DK: Oh right.
ES: It was only — I don’t think we even had one with us, I knew it existed and I’d seen pictures of it. They actually put a pressure cabin inside, inside the Wellington. It was quite a high-altitude aeroplane. I think they used it for high altitude research afterwards. Yes, so Don knew what he was doing and wasn’t wor— never worried, it was fine with him. A man than can take a tuner off, the control locks on, flies around Hamburg and land the bloody thing with the stick stuck.
DK: That’s what he did? The control lock was still on?
ES: Yeah.
DK: And he flew to Hamburg and back?
ES: No, he flew, took off from Hamburg. He should have been going to Berlin but he turned round, went round the airfield, and got it back down on the ground again, took off the control locks and flew to berlin on the Berlin shuttle.
DK: On the Berlin airlift.
ES: Yeah.
DK: On the Berlin airlift, yeah.
ES: Yeah. Oh, he knew what he was doing.
DK: So how many operations did you actually fly altogether then?
ES: Hundred and eight. Forty-seven on Wellingtons, on Halifaxes and sixty-one on Lancs. I know they say it isn’t allowed, you shouldn’t last that long. I hadn’t read the statistics [laugh].
DK: Well, if you didn’t know the statistics.
ES: It only happened by chance really. I did my forty-seven on Halifaxes and I was sent to NTU. 7 Squadron had a chop and NTU were asked to supply replacements. I was there, I was one of the replacements. They wanted a replacement, you know, they’d lost a lot of their top end. They wanted experienced people and I — so I was off operations for a few weeks and I was back on the Lancs, um, once I’d got through the — with first with 7 and then, um, 582 was formed, one flight from 7 Squadron and one flight from 156. I went there and, um, I just soldiered on. I was sort of a decoration round the place, I think I was a bit of a show piece. You know, a funny thing, when I did my hundredth operation, I was keeping quiet, I wasn’t making any fuss about it. But I used to help, deal with the crew list for the CO, and there was a young lad coming through as a skipper. He was a bit of a nervous type, he was worried because he was going to do his thirteenth trip. I thought, what the hell, I put myself down as his flight engineer. He came back and, um, we landed back at base and he said, ‘Ah that’s good, I’ve made my — done my thirteenth’, I said, ‘Well done. I’ve done my hundredth’ [laugh].
DK: And that was the first he knew?
ES: That was the first he knew. Nobody had reached three figures before. We’d lost two people at ninety-eight. We never lost one at ninety-nine but we did lose two at ninety-eight.
DK: Was there any recognition for the hundredth operation at all from the squadron or —
ES: Not from the squadron but I think there’s mention, um, in my DSO. I went over my hundredth anyway but, um, that’s really all there was. I got my DSO, I think I was the only flight engineer I think that did.
DK: How do you feel now looking back on that period [unclear] operations?
ES: I was lucky. I don’t know. It was my job. I was in the Air Force for a job and it was part of the job, sort of.
DK: And now if we move to the post war period. I was reading that you went to South America?
ES: Oh, I did the South American trip with Harris, yes.
DK: What was, what was Harris like?
ES: Well, he knew who I was when we got there [laugh]. But it was quite a crazy thing, we didn’t see much of him really. He was the top brass and we were the, we were the tail end. Funny thing is, when we first flew over, we went down to Gambia, went across to Recife, just by the mouth of the Amazon and, um, we had — Harris himself and his, his PA had been in America with the RAF during the war and they had the correct drill for America. They had long — they were in khaki but they had long trousers. We were issued with khaki appropriate to, er, West Africa but we had shorts. Oh dear, when we landed in Brazil, what a kerfuffle, ‘[unclear] get those men back in the aeroplane out of sight’. Anyway, we were pu— pushed back in the aeroplane and, um, the top brass, me, Harris and his little entourage and they were marched off to a decent hotel, and somebody came out to us, ‘Put your trousers on’, and we were allowed to go and get a meal as well [laugh]. It was ridiculous. We didn’t know what was going on.
DK: So, it, so it was three Lancasters you took to Brazil then?
ES: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And how did they perform going across the —
ES: Oh, no problems there. Um, the fuel was — you had to watch the fuel. We weren’t over dressed for it. We didn’t have long range tanks or anything which are available, were avail— or eventually became available for the Lancs, but there was no problem.
DK: So, what was the purpose of the visit then? Was it just an invite for Harris by the Brazilians?.
ES: Brazil was our allies. They had a division fighting in Italy and we were there. We —the division for me — because Brazil did not declare war on Japan, er, mainly because they had too large a Japanese population. The only thing that the Brazilians did about the Japanese is they all had to live at least a hundred kilometres from the coast. That was the Brazilian, um, result of Japan entering the war, um, and their Army only fought in Europe with the American 5th Army and they came back. We were there when they came back. We were flying over them as they went down the main street in Rio, we were over— overhead.
DK: Oh, I see, so it was a kind of com— celebration for the return of their army, in effect?
ES: Er, you mentioned the three Lancs. Well, when we turned round to come back, one of them had engine trouble. It wasn’t my aircraft but of the flight engineers, I was the only one that could change an engine or knew anything about it so I ended up staying behind waiting for the new engine. And the Brazilians were very good, they gave us a lot of coffee beans and they were tied up in the bomb bay and the aeroplane was flown by the 617 Squadron crew, and 617 Squadron took off from the airport at Brazil, at, er, Rio, which is six hours from the, er, air— from the promenade. Um, being 617 Squadron, they didn’t have bomb bays. They weren’t used to bomb, bomb doors so they took off with the bomb doors open (because you always park with the bomb doors open), so they took off with them open and some of us left behind saw them turn out over the harbour and watched our coffee beans descend into the harbour.
DK: Oh no.
ES: One, er, bag didn’t detach and when we got back instead of getting a whole bag of coffee beans which were of course rationed around, almost unavailable in England, we had a two-pound bag of them. But anyway, yeah.
DK: So, after that, is this when you then went for pilot training?
ES: Not immediately, no. I went — I did an engineering officers course, um, I was already, although I was a fitter and a qualified fitter, um, I went on to — down to St Athan, I think for four months, an accelerated engineering officer’s course, filling in the gaps between what I’d been through, what I knew as an apprentice, what I knew as a flight engineer, just filling in the gaps. I come out as a fully trained flight engineering officer which was quite useful in the end. But I went back to the Squadron and I was then on 20, on 24 Squadron, the VIP Squadron, flying Lancastrians, er, VIPs around the place. I managed to save the life of myself, Sir Robert Watson Watts and Ralph Cochrane all in one go. I — if they’d gone down and I’d been with them. We had Lancasters, Lancastrians sorry, but they had a belly tank to increase the range, because the Lanc couldn’t fly the Atlantic, so the Lancastrian couldn’t unless they put long range tanks in the bomb bay. Since it was a [unclear] thing, it wasn’t a proper — it wasn’t a well thought out plan. The filling was, um, on the side of the bomb bay with the — the flight engineer had an extension which you undid a hatch on the bomb bay, took the cap off the, er, tank, put this extension on and then you could fill the fuel up, fill the long range tank up. Good idea. Well, on going to America we were carrying two flight engineers, so I was filling the port wing and the other guy was filling the starboard wing, and I filled my wing and I look down and this bloke who was filing the bomb bay, belly tank seemed to be having a lot of trouble, seemed to be stopping and starting and whatever. So, I went down to see what, you know, the problem was. We were out in the Azores and I don’t speak Portuguese so I was chattering away, took the thing out. No wonder he was having trouble. What was he putting in the tank? Engine oil.
DK: Oh dear.
ES: I had a quick thought, er, I could see us, another one in the Bermuda Triangle. We’d have been somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle when I switched over to that tank. We wouldn’t have gone much further. Anyway, I got him out of the way, and I go the crew and anyone standing around. I got a pan out from the side of the airfield and pushed the thing back and got the wheel, the bit, the tail wheel and a bit more of the fuselage over the grass, got my tool box out [slight laugh], undid the, this false bomb door that we had, it was only two sheets of metal, opened that up. I could then get to the Pulsometer pump, which was used to transfer the, er, petrol as it should have been to the wing. But fortunately, it wasn’t switched on I don’t think. I quickly disconnected it actually in case anybody did switch it on and, um, took the Pulsometer pump off and, er, of course all the oil flowed out, straight onto the grass, er, put the thing back on again, got the fella with the petrol bowser and put a couple of hundred gallons in the tank. I’m not paying [laugh].
DK: It makes you wonder if that happened in the past if —
ES: Oh yes. I think that’s what happened with MacMillan in the Star Tiger. A very similar installation on the, on the Tudor. The Tudor had the tank in the same position.
DK: Because several went missing, didn’t they?
ES: Yeah, well if you put oil in the bloody thing. The Portuguese people, they come out with the tanker and you can’t see what’s in the tanker. But, um, anyway I did, er, swirled this thing out, pumped this fuel, fuel oil mixture out with the Pulsometer pump, got a bucket with, um, pure petrol in, stripped the Pulsometer pump out down to its essential bits, washed out the inside, swirled it round and, um, pumped some, put some more petrol in the tank, swirled it round and hoped for the best, put the Pulsometer pump on and we got to Washington DC on that fuel. Otherwise, there’d be no me, no Sir Robert Watson Watt, no Sir Ralph Cochrane or anybody but, um, that’s what flight engineers are for, aren’t they?
DK: Exactly. I guess they, they never knew. Never knew how close to disaster they came.
ES: No, they were too busy scoffing. We didn’t get a meal, the other engineers and I didn’t get anything to eat at all until the other — Washington, actually Indianapolis. We didn’t stop long in Washington, then we went on to Indianapolis. It’s all a story.
DK: So, it was then soon after that you took the pilot training then, was it?
ES: Yes, ‘47 or, ‘47 I think I took the pilot training.
DK: And ended up on the Neptunes?
ES: No, I ended up on Lancasters.
DK: Oh right. OK.
ES: At first. As soon as I took the pilots course, I thought, ‘What’s going to happen now?’ Well, I’d been on Transport Command, been on Bomber Command. Oh, put him on Coastal Command. And what do they give him to fly? A Lancaster. And, um, I was flight commander on 217 Squadron and I was off to the States [slight laugh].
DK: And so how did it feel now you were a pilot of a Lancaster, after so many operations as a flight engineer?
ES: It seemed quite natural, though I must admit, when I first went as a pilot for the conversion course, as a pilot up to Kinloss, I had the first instruction for pilot. I’ll teach him all about the Lanc. He can teach me all about the Lanc [laugh], He knew who I was and I knew who he was [laugh].
DK: He couldn’t teach you much then?
ES: Eh?
DK: He couldn’t teach you much?
ES: Well, he didn’t bother. I sat there and listened to it all. You got to show willing and, er, that’s how it went
DK: So, once you converted to the Neptunes then, what were they like?
ES: A dream, a dream. You could do anything with them. They had these spoilers in the wing. When you put the spoilers on, when you put thing on, it went vroom. Of course, when we first got the Neptunes, all the top people wanted to fly them so we had a, a group of MPs come up to Kinloss to see us and find out all about these new aeroplanes. We didn’t, they were not our aeroplanes, the Neptunes, the RAF never owned any Neptunes. They were only on loan waiting, because the Sund— the Shackletons were late on delivery and these were taken as, in a sort of stop gap until we got — Avro got their finger out, started producing Shackletons. I quite enjoyed flying the Neptune. Nicest aeroplane I’d ever flown.
DK: Did you get to fly the Shackleton then, eventually?
ES: No. It was just a heavy Lancaster. The Neptune was a whole different ball game, you could do things with that.
DK: Do you think the Nim— Shack— Neptune should have been used instead of the Shackleton then?
ES: It was — the Neptunes were loaned, loan to us until we could get enough Shackletons delivered. They were only on loan. They went back to the States and went on loan to somebody else no doubt. Other — the Aussies they picked up two Shackletons, two Neptunes at the same time. They weren’t bare backed robbers but they bought theirs.
DK: Do you think we should have bought the Neptune then?
ES: I think they were better. I think it would have been a better deal than the Shackleton ever was. To give you an example, er, Churchill was coming back from America on one of the Queens, and the idea was that the RAF should go out to the mid-Atlantic and beyond to welcome him, and this was the plan and I was sitting in the mess having breakfast and saw the Shackleton taking off to meet Winny. Then I finished my breakfast, went down to flight, did my briefing, got into the aeroplane, flew off and once we got the Queen on radar I, we homed in over the Queen and then I looked on the radar and, oh yes, there’s a Shackleton coming in. We’d guide him in to —
DK: Because they were so much slower.
ES: Slower? They didn’t — they only had one speed. You see, we used to transit at ten thousand feet which gives you a much better air speed, but they did everything at about two thousand, the Shackleton, which gives us about a hundred miles an hour advantage at ten thousand. And, um, so anyway we guided them and we had a fly round the Queen and, um, Churchill could see them and then it was time for them to go. So, they went off there. We watched them go and a little bit later, we flew off and I was back in the mess when the Shackletons landed [laugh]. That’s the difference you see. They were no faster on attack really. I was going to tell you, when we first got the Neptune, a group MPs came up to have a look at it. My squadron commander, he was a hard drinking man, so we, after they arrived so I left, er, I had a dinner with them, and spoke to them and that and left the squadron commander to take care of them. He was quite happy drinking all night. Oh, that car’s — the car’s just driven two houses up and stopped there. Never mind, it’s not in your way. But anyway, they had there thing in the mess and the next morning they were going for a flight. Well, one of the things the Neptune could do which the Shackleton never got round to doing, was rocket attacks, [unclear] sixteen rockets, sort of equivalent of two, um, salvos from a cruiser and for a rocket attack on an aircraft, ship or submarine, your flying indicators about twelve hundred feet, and you put the nose down to about seventy degrees, take aim, fire the rockets. They were very, very accurate too. I say, to practice we had old wrecks of cars out on the range. You expect to hit a car with a rocket. It’s not that big a target but you hit a car with a rocket, a ship will be a big problem because of course the salvos, that car doesn’t fire back at you, but, um, we’d got two 20 mm cannons and a nose sight and they can do some damage. Anyway, so I take these MPs up and they’d had a good night out the night before [laugh], and I was flying at a thousand feet and we’re going into attack, vroom, MPs on the ceiling [laugh] and we go in and attack, fire the rocket, horrible. You got to have fun, you got to have your fun somehow.
DK: Were the MPs impressed by that?
ES: I don’t know [laugh]. They were quite quiet when we came back [laugh].
DK: I can imagine.
ES: Not used to big aeroplanes. They liked fighters. But I had fun.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then? What year would that have been?
ES: Oh dear. Oh, I just managed to — it was Army, aft— after, um, flight commander at 617. I spent some time doing my stint as a ground eng— ground fitter, a ground officer. I was quite lucky. I got rather a cushy number for my two years. I was posted out to Germany as adjutant with an AOP Squadron with Austers, and, um, it was when I finished my, just finishing my two years out there when the Army MO called me in for the annual medical, and he said, ‘You’re too deaf to fly’, And that was it. Oh yes, a bloody Army bloke, a Pongo got me out. Actually, he didn’t get me out, he said, ‘You’re unfit to fly’. The Air Force said, ‘You can stay in in your current rank until you reach retirement age’. Well, I was thirty-five, I didn’t want to do another twenty bloody years doing bugger all, nothing interesting, so I elected to take an early retirement. Been drawing a pension ever since. I’ve been drawing my RAF pension, this is the first month of my sixty-first year of drawing a pension.
DK: Excellent. Well, I think on that note we’ll —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ted Stocker. Three
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStockerEE161013, PStockerEE1601
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:11:31 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ted joined the air force in January 1938 as an apprentice at RAF Halton. This was accelerated because of the war, and he was posted to RAF Boscombe Down.
Although he wanted to be a pilot, Ted’s skills were needed as a flight engineer. He was posted to 35 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse in 1940 where he encountered Flight Lieutenant Leonard Cheshire. Later that year, Ted found a crew and aircraft and started operations over Germany. After only four operations, he went to instruct pilots and flight engineers on Halifaxes at 102 Squadron.
Ted was posted to Pathfinders 35 Squadron and was the first flight engineer to be commissioned. After 47 operations, he volunteered and was sent for training as a mid-upper gunner to a Pathfinder Training Unit and 7 Squadron, who needed experienced people. He had to learn about Lancasters, which he compares in some detail to Halifaxes.
Ted outlines the work of the Pathfinders and how the system became more sophisticated. He encountered Donald Bennett and once flew with him, as well as flying with Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris to Brazil.
Ted flew 108 operations (47 on Halifaxes and 61 on Lancasters). He was awarded a Distinguished Service Order.
Ted did an engineering officers’ course at RAF St Athan, followed by 24 Squadron, a VIP transport squadron, flying Lancastrians.
After pilot training in 1947, Ted was flight commander on 217 squadron. He flew Neptunes, which he compares favourably to Shackletons. Ted was then posted to Germany for two years as adjutant with an Air Observation Post squadron and flew Austers. He left the RAF because of impaired hearing.
Temporal Coverage
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1938
1940
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany
102 Squadron
35 Squadron
582 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
Distinguished Service Order
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Lancaster
Lancastrian
military service conditions
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Halton
RAF Linton on Ouse
Shackleton
Stirling
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/551/8815/PLancasterJ1501.2.jpg
794d475655253509adf90821a41de268
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/551/8815/ALancasterJO170308.1.mp3
0854aad26e9a380b5f2a5cc40af42a9a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lancaster, Jo
John Oliver Lancaster
J O Lancaster
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Lancaster, JO
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with John Oliver 'Jo' Lancaster DFC (1919 - 2019, 948392, 103509 Royal Air Force), photographs and six of his log books. Jo Lancaster completed 54 operations as a pilot with in Wellingtons with 40 Squadron, and after a period of instructing, in Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby. He became test pilot after the war and was the first person to use a Martin-Baker ejection seat in an emergency.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jo Lancaster and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-18
2017-03-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 8th of March 2017 and I’m in Hassocks with John Lancaster. Jo Lancaster. To talk about his long career in the RAF and as a test pilot afterwards. So, Jo, what are the earliest recollections of life that you have in the family?
JL: I was born in Penrith in Cumberland. In the Lake District. I was very lucky really. I didn’t realise it much at the time. And my first ideas of aeroplanes were drawn entirely from, from books. They were very rarely seen over Cumberland. If they were they were just a spot in the sky making a humming noise but I became very interested in aeroplanes and made models out of the rough materials I could find to hand. I eventually had a flying model with an elastic band which gave me great, great fun but I never actually saw an aeroplane close to until I was about aged sixteen when a Gypsy Moth made a landing due to bad weather in the, in the area. I left school in 1935 aged sixteen and it was during that summer that Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus visited Penrith and I had my first flight in an Avro 504. I remember that well. There was a bench seat going forward and aft of the rear cockpit on which you sat astride and a young lady who I didn’t know was my co-passenger and she just put her head down in the cockpit and screamed throughout the whole flight. [laughs] But I thoroughly enjoyed it. I could see the engine with the tapits, with the bells going up and down. The exposed bells. And it was on that flight that the pilot had a piece of piano wire on the wing tip and picked up bits of cloth from the ground with it. I was completely bitten by flying then but there was little chance of it in the, in the near future. I left school at sixteen and I didn’t want to go to university. In point of fact I couldn’t really because my father’s business had a bad time during the recession and there wasn’t any money left in the kitty but I didn’t mind that. I didn’t want to go to university. I wanted to go out and get amongst mechanical things and an aircraft apprenticeship seemed to be the answer. We considered the RAF apprenticeship scheme, I forget where now. Henlow. Not Henlow.
CB: Halton.
JL: Halton. Considered the RAF apprenticeship scheme at Halton but I wanted to be in the start of the aeroplane flight and not, not the sort of maintenance of it and so I, somehow or other, got a list of aircraft manufacturers in Britain who were offering apprenticeships. Some of them wanted premiums so that put them out but Armstrong Whitworth sounded the best and in due course my father accompanied me down to Coventry for an interview. And I was accepted and joined Armstrong Whitworth in October 1935 starting a five year apprenticeship. The apprenticeship was very good. We had pay and we had one morning and one afternoon off paid time for, to attend the local technical college. [Cough] Can we have a pause?
CB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: So you’re at Coventry.
JL: The apprenticeship.
CB: And you’re just on the apprenticeship.
JL: Yes. When I — I went down to Coventry to take up my apprenticeship having negotiated some digs through the local paper. I didn’t like the digs we had, I had but [pause - interference] but when I first started there [I feel sure?] it was at the airfield at Wheatley, an old World War One airfield with still the original hangars. I first of all went to, as a stop-gap to the final assembly unit where they were building Hawker Hart trainers. I found everybody very very friendly and one of the almost time expired apprentices, expired apprentices asked me about my digs and I said I didn’t like them and he said there was a vacancy at his digs so I was very glad to go there and I, I was there for over three years. Nearly four years in fact. In, in the original interview it was, it was stressed that there would be no flying involved in the apprenticeship but I had ideas that I would join the, what was then the RAF Class F Reserve which operated very similarly to the Territorial Army. Consisted mostly of a two week summer camp. But on reaching the age of eighteen that coincided with the start of the RAF Volunteer Reserve and I joined straight away and followed that up with the full time ab initio training course at Sywell in July of 1937. Having done that I went back to, to my apprenticeship of course and attended the local RAF, [pause] oh dear. Elementary Reserve Training School at Ansty. That was local to Coventry. During the day, during the weekdays the instructors there were instructing a course of short service, short service commission pilots and at evenings or other times when convenient as at weekends they were training the volunteer reservists. There instead of Tiger Moths as at Sywell we had Avro Cadets with Armstrong Siddeley Genet engines and I converted on to Cadets and then converted on to Hawker Harts. When I was still eighteen I was flying solo on Hawker Harts which was a beautiful aeroplane.
[pause]
JL: I don’t know how to continue.
CB: We’ll stop just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: You mentioned digs. People don’t seem to have digs now so what were they and how did it work?
JL: Well my first digs, which were arranged through the local, by post through the local paper, when I got there I didn’t know the people. I didn’t care for them very much. I was there for really just over a week I think and I was happy to leave when my new acquaintance apprentice, Tony Carpenter suggested I join him in his digs. There I was with a family, or we were with a family. Mrs Hinder who was a widow, widow of a parson and her two children Ruby and Percy. So there were five of us in the house and Mrs Hinder provided us with breakfast, a packed lunch, an evening meal five days a week and breakfast and all the other meals during the weekend at the princely sum of twenty five shillings a week.
CB: Brilliant. Yes. And what about your washing?
JL: I can’t remember. I didn’t do it. They must. It probably went to, I don’t know. I don’t suppose she did it. I don’t remember.
CB: What sort of hours did you work in those days?
JL: We had to be there at 8 o’clock in the morning. We had a half hour’s break for lunch and left at 5 o’clock four days of the week and half past five on Thursdays. And Saturday morning it was 8 o’clock till twelve [cough] I shall have to go and get another drink.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
CB: That’s really useful so when we have the time to talk about the apprenticeship how did the apprenticeship work?
JL: Well as I said I actually started in final assembly but I was only there a couple of weeks. That was a stop-gap and then I was moved to what they called a detailed fitting shop where all the various parts of the aircraft were made using hand tools. And I was there for probably nine months and then I moved to the milling machine shop. Learned how to work a milling machine and then moved on from that to working a, working on a lathe. Learned all about lathe work. Then I went to sub-assembly where units of the aircraft were assembled. The aircraft going through at this time was the Whitley. And then eventually I went on to, moved up to Baginton. The new airfield and the new factory on final assembly and I was there until the — when the war started. I was, I was held back until I joined the — the RAF decided to have me back in January 1940. But I wasn’t actually called up until June of 1940. Incidentally there was a rather amusing episode in May of 1939. Shortly before the war. Everybody knew the war was coming. They had to re-introduce conscription and I was a bullseye for the first age group and I had to go and have an interview with a little [petrie?] army major so I lost no time in telling him I didn’t want to join his army and I was a trained engineer and a trained pilot and he said, ‘Well you’ll be, you’ll be a dead cert for the Royal Army Ordinance Corps.’ And why he said that and not the Royal Engineers I don’t know. But anyway the war started and in no time at all I received a letter containing a traveling warrant to Budbrooke Barracks and a postal order for the four shillings in advance of pay to join the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
CB: Oh.
JL: So I dashed down to, and by this time they had a combined recruiting centre in Coventry. They’d taken over a skating rink, a roller skating rink. And the air force recruiting officer was no help at all but the naval recruiting officer was a Chief Petty Officer Brown and I went and told him my problem and he said, ‘Well we’ll get you out of that,’ and he took me on for the navy on, on deferred service. So I then got a letter saying please return the travelling warrant and postal order. You need not now apply, attend Budbrooke Barracks. So whilst, whilst I was on deferred service for the navy the RAF changed their mind and decided to have me back and, but I didn’t actually re-join until about June of 1940 starting with a six weeks course at ITW Initial Training Wing at Paignton in Devon. And then we were all disbursed to [pause] God. [pause] Sorry, this is my brain. [pause]
CB: From ITW you went to Initial Training Wing.
JL: Well it was Flying Training School.
CB: Yes but at Sywell again.
JL: The first one was Sywell.
CB: Yes.
JL: But this time, after the war started it was Desford near Leicester
CB: Oh yes.
WT: Yes. Desford. Yes.
JO: Yes. Yes. We were, we were all divided up. I went, I went to Desford with some others. During the, during this ab initio course the Battle of Britain was in full swing and of course we all wanted to be fighter pilots and I was in fact selected to be a fighter pilot and sent to number five elementary flying, 5 Flying Training School at Sealand which had Miles Masters and there I was going to be a fighter pilot. I trained on Miles Masters. Later — later in the — we were down, we moved from Sealand down to Ternhill in Shropshire and continued training there but the, during the winter ‘40/41 it was very bad. The training — some of us got well behind and I was on a course of about forty eight divided into four flights of twelve and our flight was the only one, was the only one who succeeded in doing the night flying part of the syllabus on Masters and at the end of the course the whole flight was posted to bomber OTUs whilst the rest went to fighters. And I went to Lossiemouth, 20 OTU as I remember and was converted on to Wellingtons. I was very cross about this at the time but in the event I think it was the right thing to do. When I got to Lossiemouth we were next door to [pause] oh dear [pause] sorry. A Whitley OTU.
WT: Wycombe?
JL: Hmmn?
WT: Wycombe
JL: No. A Whitley OTU up in Scotland. Oh God. I’m sorry.
CB: Was it on, was it a coastal OTU or was it a Bomber Command OTU?
JL: It was a bombing.
CB: Whitleys. Yes.
JL: I was at Lossiemouth converting on to Wellingtons.
CB: Yes.
JL: At 20 OTU.
CB: Yes.
JL: And there was another OTU only about ten miles away with Whitleys. It was well known. It’s still open.
CB: Yes. Kinloss.
JL: Kinloss. Yes.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
JL: Sorry. Thank you.
CB: It’s ok.
JL: I got an interview with the group captain of Lossiemouth called Group Captain Smyth-Piggott and told him that I had been building Whitleys and knew all about them and that I’d like to convert. To transfer to Whitleys. And he wouldn’t have it so I was stuck with Wellingtons. And so we were paired off as pilots with first and second pilot. I was the first pilot and my second pilot was Derek Townsend and having done our conversion training we then had to be crewed up and we were all ushered into a hangar with the right proportions of pilots, navigators, wireless operators and air gunners. And Derek and I wandered around looking at people we’d never seen before and we eventually finished up with a Canadian navigator Glen Leach, a very Welsh wireless operator called Jack Crowther, another Canadian front gunner and a New Zealand rear gunner. Now, at that time I’d never met a Canadian before and I was just, I was surprised they spoke like people we saw in the cinema. But I hardly knew where New Zealand was. Anyway, we went down to that, to the pub in Lossiemouth that night and we were blood brothers from then for the rest of our lives.
[pause]
CB: Right. Stop there for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JL: What had happened.
CB: At Desford. Yeah.
JL: At Desford. We did a — went off and did a flight. When we landed he said, ‘You haven’t forgotten how to fly.’
CB: But you still had to go through.
JL: I still had to do the whole thing through.
CB: The whole thing.
JL: Yes.
CB: Because that’s the way the process ran. Can we just go back to your VR time because you might have continued with that but how long were you in the VR, flying and what caused you to cease?
JL: Well I as I say I was being converted on to — [pause] Oh God.
CB: On to the Hart. Yeah.
JL: Cadets.
CB: Oh the Cadet. Yes.
JL: And Harts. I was flying Harts at a very tender age and I was the ace. I thought I was the ace of the base. And one Sunday after a very bad period of weather where there was no flying we had a very fine Sunday morning in April 1938 and I dashed out to Ansty. There were no Harts available but I was given a, alloted a Cadet to go and do aerobatics and off I went. There was something wrong with the engine actually. It tended to choke and had to be re-started. I wasn’t even bothered with that. I went off and I did some aerobatics. I got doing a slow roll. There was a fire extinguisher under the dashboard and the instrument panel and on the final turn with full top rudder the fire extinguisher fell out and got behind the rudder bar so when I got right way up I got a whole lot of left rudder on. I managed to sort of kick it halfway through the fabric so that I could get steering rudder and instead of going back to Ansty as I should have done I became insane and landed at Wheatley. Well it was a Sunday so there was only a sort of a maintenance man there. When he walked up I gave him the fire extinguisher and took off again. And then, then I, my fellow digs chap, Tony Carpenter, he couldn’t join the VR because of his eyesight but he bought all sort of what we would call a microlight called a dart splitter mouse and he had it at a field near Kenilworth and I then went over to him and did a few aerobatics there. Then I did what was actually a perfectly legal exercise. A simulated forced landing where you from two thousand feet or whatever you throttle the engine back and did an approach on to a suitable field, opened it up and go around again at the end. I did what the, I opened up and the engines stopped and I went through a hedge so that’s rather spoiled things and I was thrown out. You’ll find it in there.
WT: Gosh.
JL: I wasn’t thrown out for going through the hedge. I was thrown out for doing low level aerobatics.
CB: Ah
JL: That was because very very close by was Kenilworth Golf Club and playing golf that morning was a chap called Tom Chapman who was a director of Armstrong Siddeley’s who was hand in glove with Armstrong Whitworth’s and he, he reported it. [laughs] Tom Chapman. Bless his heart.
CB: You never became friends.
JL: I never met him.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve got to the stage that you’re at Lossiemouth and you’ve crewed up. This crewing up — could you just explain how it actually happened? The process.
JL: Well Derek and I just wandered around looking at people’s brevets and we got together a navigator. We found this Canadian with a, he had the O brevet.
CB: Yeah.
JL: He was very proud of that. The Observer. Asked him and he came along and we continued the process till we got the full crew. And we all, we all agreed to meet in the pub that night and we were thick as thieves from that time on.
CB: So how long were you together for?
JL: Well from Lossiemouth, when we were crewed up we did a number of cross country exercises [cough] oh dear. To finish the course. Air firing and practice bombing and then we were posted as a crew to 40 Squadron at Wyton. So we all went off on leave and we all arrived at Wyton on the appointed day only to be told that we weren’t supposed to be at Wyton. We were supposed to be at Alconbury. The satellite. And so we got a service bus from Wyton to Alconbury and signed in there and we were promptly all put on a charge for arriving late. And we were, what are the — ? [pause] I forget the expression was. The lowest. The lowest telling off. So that wasn’t a very good start because we didn’t like the WingCo much anyway. He wasn’t a very popular chap. A [jock?]. Wing Commander Davey. Anyway, we were, then Derek, Derek left us to join another crew and we were given a captain in the form of a Jim Taylor who — he’d already done a lot of ops and he took us on our first eight ops and then he left us. He was, he was screened and I took over as captain and we were given a series of second pilots from then on. And we succeeded in surviving thirty operations including a daylight on Brest. And then we, then we all split up.
CB: So this is in a Wellington.
JL: Yes. And I was posted to a Wellington OTU as a, as an instructor [coughs] oh dear. I’m sorry about this.
CB: Ok. Would you like to stop for a mo?
[Recording paused]
CB: So can we just talk about the tour? The aircraft was a Wellington. Which model?
JL: Yes. Throughout this period all my flying was on Wellington 1Cs which was powered by Bristol Pegasus Mark xviii and with these it was very very underpowered. It was supposed to be able to fly on one engine but in fact it couldn’t because it had non-feathering propellers.
CB: Oh.
JL: Fortunately the engines were fairly reliable. The most common problem would be that one of the rocker boxes would break loose from the cylinder head which introduced, which put that cylinder out of use and caused it to be, to vibrate rather a lot. That happened from time to time. But at least you had the use of most of the engine.
CB: So you couldn’t really feather. You couldn’t feather the prop.
JL: No. No.
CB: So you kept it running did you or you stopped it? The drag was huge.
JL: Well if you lost the engine it just, just windmilled.
CB: Yeah. Right.
JL: Caused a lot of drag.
CB: So of the ops, one of them was to Brest. What was that like?
JL: There was one occasion when we went off. Actually it was fortunately in daylight and when we got up to about seventeen hundred feet and the oil, the oil pressure on one engine dropped to zero. I looked out and there was oil all over the engine but fortunately we were just within a mile or so of Wyton and I was able to drop straight down and land in Wyton complete with a full load of petrol and bombs. But had, had it been dark the situation would have been very different. It was too late to bale out and we had a full load of bombs and it was dark.
CB: In circumstances where you’re still, you’ve still got your full load of bombs what was the proper procedure?
JL: Sorry?
CB: In the circumstances where there was difficulty with the aircraft and you had a full load of bombs what was the proper procedure as far as the bomb load was concerned? Were you supposed to jettison or keep them?
JL: Well normally only jettison over the sea.
CB: Right.
JL: But of course you had to be in full control of the aircraft. If you lost an engine and you weren’t able to, to maintain flight you’d probably leave them where they were.
CB: So thinking of the rest of the tour how did the ops go on that? You had a bit of variety. They were all at night were they?
JL: All except one. The 24th of July 1941 there was a major daylight operation on Brest in which we were involved. The squadron sent six aircraft in two lots of three. The other three lost, lost one aircraft in a direct hit but our three all survived. Knocked about but still working.
CB: So the other one was lost to flak.
JL: Yes.
CB: What operating height were you using then?
JL: Twelve and a half thousand feet.
CB: And what bomb load were you carrying?
JL: Probably five. I can’t tell you. I didn’t record these. Probably five hundred pound armour piercing but it was all a waste of time as I discovered later. Much later. I visited Lorient after the war and went and saw the U-boat pens there and none of our bombs would ever do anything to them. They had a huge roof about two metres thick and then a false roof on top of that. You could see where bombs had hit it. There was just a little pock mark. That’s all. We were all wasting our time. I don’t know what our intelligence people were doing. Thinking about.
CB: So for the other ops then. These were at night. Where? Where were they going? Where were the targets?
JL: Mostly in Germany but we did one to [pause] oh Christ, I’m sorry.
CB: Was it a port?
JL: On the Baltic.
CB: Right. Kiel or Wilhelmshaven. Bremen.
JL: Further east.
CB: Ah.
JL: Poland.
CB: Oh. Danzig.
JL: Oh God. I’m sorry. My brain’s going on strike.
CB: Stettin.
JL: Stettin. Thank you.
CB: Right. So that was a port. And what were you after there? The shipping. Were you?
JL: The port. Yes. That was a long one. That’s well over nine hours. We had overload tanks.
CB: The overload tanks were jettisonable or were they inside the aircraft?
JL: Oh no. They were, they were in the bomb bay.
CB: Oh right.
JL: So we had a reduced bomb load.
CB: And this is the early part of the war so how were you getting on in terms of navigation and pinpointing the target?
JL: There was very little to help us with navigation. We had a choice of dead reckoning and any pinpointing we could get. At night, providing there was no cloud, water could usually be seen. The River Rhine. We used to get quite a bit of haze over the Ruhr but you could usually pick out the Rhine. All the coastlines and harbours. We did have Hamburg two or three times. Bremen. Wilhelmshaven. Berlin. Most of them were to the Ruhr though. I think we did [pause], oh God my brain.
CB: So there was flak all the time but to what extent were there —?
JL: Nearly all the time. Yes.
CB: What about night fighters? Were they?
JL: We were attacked. Yes. On the way back from Berlin actually. We were. Berlin was clear but there was, on the way back we encountered cloud and we were being shot at through the cloud pretty well continuously. And we couldn’t understand this because we shouldn’t have been but what had happened was that the forecast wind which was all we had had changed and they’d taken us north and we were actually going down via Hamburg, Bremen, Emden but eventually there was a break in the clouds and as I looked down I could see the causeway across the mouth of the Zuiderzee and as I reported this and obviously everybody, including the rear gunner, was looking down and it was just at that moment that a burst of fire went right over the top of us followed by an ME110. And we didn’t see it. We were lucky. But anyway, anyway we went down a very steep spiral and this 110 tried to follow us and Keith Coleman, our New Zealand rear gunner got a good shot at it and we both went into cloud and we never knew what happened to it but after the war some people checked up on it and there were no night fighters shot down that night but one inexplicably crashed on landing and it’s just possible it might have been the one.
CB: Because you’d damaged it. Yeah. Now, in those days had the corkscrew evasion system operated or did you make up your own technique for avoiding a fighter?
JL: Well, only, only did corkscrewing if you were, if you were attacked. In my second tour actually it was different. It was my own idea. I kept changing course and height. Five hundred feet up. Five hundred feet up. Turned left, then right. Pretty well all the time because the eighty eight millimetre guns were radar controlled and they were bloody good. So by doing that we were never actually seriously shot at. Not enroute.
CB: You mentioned that you had various co-pilots. Why was that? Were they being prepared for captaincy themselves or what?
JL: Yes. They were doing their training before taking over their own crew. I’m very sorry.
[Recording paused]
JL: That was the daylight raid on, on Brest I think.
CB: Oh. We talked about the 110 just now but what, on what other occasion were you attacked by a fighter?
JL: On the daylight raid on Brest in July there were several 110s about. Sorry. Correction. 109s about.
CB: Yes.
JL: But there were a lot of Wellingtons about and they were all, they were all firing at these 109s and one went, certainly went down because the pilot baled out but all the others tend to claim it. [laughs]
CB: Right. Is that your —
JL: In retrospect it’s impossible to say who hit it.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
JL: We had, we had beam guns but both my gunners, front and rear were blasting away and we had two beam gunners with Vickers, Vickers VJOs fitted up and the second, our second pilot and the wireless op were blasting away with theirs as well and of course all the Wellingtons were probably doing the same thing so the sky was absolutely full of CO3.
CB: Right. So in your flying training at Ternhill what sort of people were there?
JL: We had two American air force officers. Sam Morinello and the other one was called Galbraith. But of course they left us to join their Eagle Squadrons. We also had Neville Duke.
CB: Oh right.
JL: And we had David. Oh God, here we go again [pause] oh I’m sorry. My brain’s —
CB: It’s alright. That’s interesting Neville Duke because he took the world speed record in the Hunter.
JL: Yes.
CB: Didn’t he? In the fifties.
JL: He was also on the same course at ITW.
CB: Was he? Yeah. What about these Americans then. What were they like? Because they weren’t in the war and they’d volunteered to join?
JL: Yes. Well most Americans joined the Royal Canadian Air Force but these two didn’t. Sam Morinello had done a lot of parachute jumps. Just what he’d, they’d been doing. I think they both had pilot training. Why they didn’t join the Canadian Air Force I don’t know but I suppose this was the — they wanted to be certain to get to the American squadrons.
CB: So they were posted to the Eagle Squadrons.
JL: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Yes. They were. I think they distinguished themselves fairly well later on.
CB: And how did they fit into the general way of things because they were a different culture?
JL: Oh well. Very well. I’m trying to think of the name of this. His father was chief. Well his father was a pre-war, a World War One pilot. He became a chief designer at Bristol and he had four sons. He was killed in 1938 flying one of his own design and the [pause] and the three sons, I think it was three sons. Might have been more. So, anyway, two of them were killed early in the war and this David. He was just one of the boys. Happy. We knew nothing at all about his background at all.
CB: Oh dear.
JL: But he, unfortunately he was killed as well. Oh God. The name, name, name. [I must have written it?] I bet it’s in there.
CB: Ok. Right. We’ll stop just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: So going back to the time when you finished at 40 Squadron. Where were posted and why?
JL: I was posted to Wellesbourne Mountford for instructional duties. Wellesbourne Mountford being Number 22 OTU. Operational Training Unit. Still with Wellington 1Cs. I was attached to the conversion flight. I was converting them to fly the Wellington after which they did their navigational exercises. I didn’t like the job at all. I’m not born, I wasn’t born to be an instructor and I was very unhappy about it. Not only that but it involved night flying details and in the winter the night flying practice was divided up into four sessions being 6 till 9, 9 till 12, 12 till 3 and 3 till 6 and if you were on a late show you know you had to be out at 3 o’clock on a cold, miserable morning and go and do three hours circuits and landings and that was not very funny. I discovered that there was, at Central Flying School, they ran a course for OTU instructors so I asked to go on that which I did but it didn’t help. It didn’t help me much. When I went back to Wellesbourne I was still doing conversion training. Then in July another OTU opened at what is now East Midlands Airport.
CB: Castle Donington.
JL: Castle Donington. That had just opened and I was posted there. When I got there there were four or five other people there and no aeroplanes. So we had a nice time for a while. Then we collected some aeroplanes and started training. Right. Now we start. Originally I was on conversion training but then I went on to the navigation side and I was sent on a cross country with a, a five hour cross country, with a pupil crew and when I got — this was in October ‘42 and when I got back I found I was rostered to go on what they called a bullseye that night which is an exercise cooperating with the Observer Corps and the ground defences. I went to the mess and there was no food and there was no option but to go back down to the flight and took over yet another pupil crew I’d never met before. We went off on this bullseye. We got, we got over the Solway Firth, we were actually going to North Wales but via the Solway Firth and we hit icy conditions. Ice was [cough] ice was banging away on the side. I discovered that the wireless operator had declared his apparatus unserviceable. I’d no idea what the navigator was like. I was frozen stiff so I decided to go home. We were over ten tenths cloud as they called it and so I flew east for a long long long way before letting down safely and then found my way back to, to the airfield. The next day I was on the carpet for abandoning the bullseye. I explained everything but it didn’t cut any ice. This wing commander who hadn’t done a thing I think for himself demanded to see my logbook and in my logbook I’d cut out a little comic thing from a flight magazine where the caption was, “All the way from Hamburg on one engine,” and of course it was a chap sitting astride just an engine and this wing commander took exception to this and told me to take it off. By this time I told him I didn’t want to take it out. And we departed. We departed the worst of friends and very shortly after that a posting came through for me to 150 Squadron at Snaith which I quite welcomed because I was absolutely sick of OTUs. When I got to Snaith the wing commander said, ‘Who are you and what have you come for?’ So I said, ‘I don’t know why I’ve come, sir. [laughs] I’ve just been posted.’ And he said, ‘Well what do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I want to go on a Lancaster squadron.’ And so I did about three flights in their aircraft. 150 Squadron’s. They had Wellingtons 3s by then with a Hercules. And then I was posted to, [cough] oh dear. I’m sorry. 12 Squadron at Wickenby. Just outside Lincoln. When I got to Wickenby they still had Wellingtons but they were scheduled to train on to Lancs. I did three operations with Wellingtons. Then we were stood down for six weeks to transfer. Convert on to Lancasters.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JL: And I think a couple of squadrons in 5 Group. That’s all there were at that time.
CB: So how did the conversion process operate? Bearing in mind there were no HCUs.
JL: Conversion on to Lancasters? Well we had a couple of pilots seconded to us. [coughs] I’m so sorry. Let me take a cough pill.
CB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
JL: Between the Frisian Islands and the mainland.
CB: We’re just talking about your ops on the Wellington before you moved to Lancaster. So one was Hamburg.
JL: Not many on 40 Squadron.
CB: No.
JL: Nor at the OTU.
CB: No.
JL: But when I went back to 12 Squadron as I say we still had Wellingtons and I took over the flight commander’s crew as a going concern. We did one mining operation between Terschelling Island and the mainland and one on the approach to St Nazaire. In the estuary. That was a timed run for an island. I think in between was Hamburg. Bombing.
CB: And with mines you couldn’t drop from too great a height because it would shatter the mine so what height did you go?
JL: I think it was five hundred feet and a hundred and sixty miles an hour.
[pause]
CB: And you operated in miles an hour rather than knots did you?
JL: Yes. Incidentally on that run when I went to St Nazaire I decided to go across Brittany. Low down. It was dark but it was clear enough to fly at two or three hundred feet and I saw quite clearly somebody on the ground with a lantern and they swung it around in a circle as we went past.
CB: Exhilarating at low level at night was it?
JL: Well I think I probably thought it was safer than going higher because the guns couldn’t get at you.
CB: So that was a lone sortie. You weren’t going out as a squadron at the same time.
JL: Oh no. They were all lone sorties.
CB: Right.
JL: Except the, except the daylight on Brest.
CB: Right. So after those three then you do the conversion on to the Lancasters. So what was the process there?
JL: We spent quite a little time learning about the Lancaster on the ground and then we had two pilots from 460 Squadron attached to us and they quite quickly converted us. It didn’t take very long. A Lancaster was quite easy to fly and then we took over our crews and spent some time.
CB: So when you moved to Lancasters the four engines all had an engineer. How did that selection work? Did you have all the crew with you?
JL: Well we had, oh a suitable number of mid-upper gunners and engineers arrived and we didn’t choose them. They were just allocated.
CB: So —
JL: And with a full crew then we started doing navigation exercises, a lot of which, much to our concern, were low level formation.
CB: Daylight or night?
JL: Daylight. We didn’t like the idea very much. In the end we didn’t do any daylights.
CB: So what time are we talking about now? 1942.
JL: 1942. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: My first operation on Lancs was a mining operation. To Norway. Haugesundfjord fjord
[pause]
CB: What was the, that was just in the fjord. Just in the entrance was it? Or close to the shipping?
JL: It was more or less parallel to the coast as I remember.
CB: Right.
JL: It wasn’t, it wasn’t very well defended at all. Searchlights came up and a bit of light flak and my gunners responded quickly and, and they put the lights out again.
CB: What sort of height were you doing your mining?
JL: Five hundred feet.
CB: That was also five hundred was it? Right. Ok. And then the rest of the ops. On that tour how many did you do? With 12 squadron?
JL: I think I did twenty two [pause] on Lancasters. Did thirty on Wellingtons. I did the two thousand bomber raids. And then another twenty two [coughs], another twenty two on Lancs which made fifty four I think.
CB: So that normal tour would be thirty. So why did you stop at twenty two?
JL: Oh well I’d done, I did the fifty fourth operation which was to La Spezia in Italy. And the next morning I was called in by the wing commander. And wondering what I’d done wrong, and he said that a new edict had come through that a second tour was now twenty operations. Not twenty. And as I’d done twenty I was finished as of then.
CB: Right. Not thirty. Yeah.
JL: So I finished very suddenly at fifty four.
CB: So what was the next move from there?
JL: Well I wanted to be a test pilot and I thought the best way of starting was getting a posting to a maintenance unit. The wing commander. Wing commander. [pause] Oh dear. Wood. Wing Commander Wood was very very helpful because my first posting after having finished the second tour was back to Wellington 1Cs at Harwell.
CB: Oh right.
JL: And I complained very very loudly about that so WinCo Wood took me off that and made me sort of supernumerary on the squadron. I was talking to new crews and doing odd jobs and then I couldn’t go on forever so they gave me a posting to the Group Gunnery Flight at Binbrook. 1481 flight. I was, they had a Wellington flight and a Martinet flight — the target towers. I was in charge of the Wellington flight and I had a right royal time there. I was my own boss and we did as we liked. But then a posting came through for me to Boscombe Down. A&AEE which I was rather frightened about that. I wasn’t sure if I was up to it. In the end it was fine. Incidentally, the posting to Harwell, another second tour pilot finished shortly after me [pause] Once again his name’s gone. But he took it because his wife lived near Harwell and within about six weeks he was dead. The engine caught fire and the thing folded. What was his name? All these names are in there.
CB: Yeah.
JL: In ten minutes time I can tell you.
CB: Ok. We can pick it up. So now you’re on the way to Boscombe Down.
JL: Yes. I went to Boscombe Down. I was posted to, there was an armament flight and a performance testing flight. I went to the armament flight and the flight commander gave me a ride in a B, oh dear, B25.
CB: Mitchell.
JL: Mitchell. Mitchell. And that was it. I didn’t have any dual. You just got in to an aeroplane and flew it.
CB: Right.
JL: And that’s just, just what happened. And I amassed a total of, I think eventually a hundred and forty four types.
CB: Really. So what formal process did they have for introducing you to test flying?
JL: None at all then. I was just posted in, as I said given a ride in a Mitchell because I’d never been in an American aircraft before. And that was it. I flew them all. Liberators, Fortresses. What was the, was it a B26?
CB: Marauder.
JL: Marauder. That was a bit of a handful.
CB: Was it?
JL: Very high wing loading.
CB: And when you were doing the flying did you have people with you on instruments? Who were monitoring instruments? What was actually happening at Boscombe Down?
JL: Most of my flying was done for armament purposes and we had armament technical officers. Sort of bombing and gunning and we were supervising the tests. We were just drivers really.
CB: Yeah.
JL: My first job, my very first job when I got down there was to drop a four thousand pounder from fifteen hundred feet. Well in the, in Bomber Command the quoted safety height for dropping a four thousand pounder is six thousand feet. Really it was nothing. You felt, well you heard and felt just a little bump. And all this was, they were doing a lot of tests in preparation for what they called second TAF. Second Technical Airforce for the invasion.
CB: So this is army support effectively. So the four thousand pounder’s the cookie which is just a barrel.
JL: Oh yes.
CB: And did you feel there was some danger in doing that? Or did you prove there wasn’t?
JL: Well as I say we’d been told the safety height was six thousand feet and we were sent off to do it at fifteen hundred but I had no problem.
CB: Which was what they wanted to know.
JL: They were measuring it.
CB: Where would you, where was the range where you dropped those?
JL: Lyme Bay. Just off Lyme Regis.
CB: Yeah. What other things were you dropping? Or was there a lot of gunnery involved as well with the fifty seven millimetre.
JL: A bit of both. I had another job with a Mosquito. Oh incidentally. Mosquito. This was typical Boscombe at the time. There was quite a lot of social drinking went on in the evenings and one of the chaps who was, I was very fond of as an armament officer called Shepherd. He was a school master in civil life but he was involved with the rocket. RPs rocket projectiles which was flown by the [pause] oh God.
CB: The Mosquitos and the Beaufighters.
JL: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Anyway, one night he said, ’Would you like to fly a Mosquito?’ So I said, ‘Yes please.’ And the next day we just walked out to this Mosquito. Let’s say 8RPs. Four under each wing. And I got in. He got in behind me and we went off. That was literally true.
CB: And you’d never flown a two engine.
JL: I’d never flown a Mosquito before.
CB: No.
JL: And I’d certainly never fired rockets but there was quite an art in that because he was telling me what to do all the time. And then another job I had with the Mosquito was — I think they were probably four thousand pound casings filled with [pause] oh dear my brain. Flammable stuff.
CB: Oh yes. Napalm.
JL: What?
CB: Napalm.
JL: Napalm. Yes and this was, this was done we had a range at Crichel Down which, which was, I guess, sometime after the war and low level and so I went off and dropped one of these things at low level. Went back and landed and they phoned up and said, ‘You’re too high.’ So I had another one. I think we did this four times. Eventually I was flying just as low as I possibly dare.
CB: Was this in a Mosquito again?
JL: Yes. And then I saw some cine film of it afterwards but to see this Mosquito scuttling along just above the treetops and a great flame drops the, a great flame went up like a clutching hand way up above the Mosquito. Came down just missing its tail. It was quite frightening to watch and I did that four times.
CB: Blimey. This is using the four thousand pounder casing.
JL: That’s what it looked like. Yes.
CB: When you were doing your four thousand pounder at fifteen hundred feet what plane were you using to drop?
JL: The Lanc.
CB: That was the Lanc. Right. Ok. What other exciting planes? Did you fly single seaters at Boscombe Down?
JL: Oh yes. You could fly anything you wanted. Just go along and say, ‘Please can I have a go at this.’ And you did. There were, well I’d already flown Spitfires. I don’t know where they got that from but I pinched a Spitfire.
CB: Oh did you?
JL: At Binbrook.
CB: You felt it needed exercising.
JL: Yes. You haven’t, you haven’t got on to this one.
CB: No. Go on.
JL: Well —
CB: Right.
JL: 1 Group. They had a, I think he was a New Zealander with a Spitfire. He used to go around all the squadrons doing fighter affiliation. He came. He used to come to Binbrook about once a week I should think. Every time he came I used to say, ‘Give us a go in your Spitfire.’ And eventually he said, ‘Well I’m going to lunch. I know nothing about it.’ So I took that as a have a go.
CB: Have a go.
JL: Yeah. So I went off and did fifteen minutes in this Spitfire and the station commander was Hughie Edwards.
CB: Oh right. [laughs]
JL: Well actually I got on well with him and just a couple of days later, I can’t remember what he said but it was just a very few words just to let me know that he knew about it and having done that I thought well I’ll have another go. So the next time this chap came in I had another go. And then at Kirton Lindsey, not very far away there was a Spitfire OTU. So I went off in — Hughie Edwards used to have a Tiger Moth. He used to let me fly that and I just introduced an Aussie, Aussie wireless op of 460 Squadron. So we went over to Kirton Lindsey and said we wanted to fly Spitfires and they said, ‘Well you’ll have to use Hibaldstow. Our satellite.’ So I went over to Hibaldstow. Now. I can’t for the life of me think how this ever happened but I walked in there and said, ‘Please sir, I have flown a Spitfire before. Can I have another go?’ And then he gave me a Spitfire and I went off for forty five minutes. They’d never seen me before. I’d never seen them before. But this is true. It’s true.
CB: Was this the OTU for the Eagle Squadron?
JL: No. I don’t think so.
CB: No.
JL: I don’t know what it was. It was just a Spitfire OTU.
CB: Yeah. Right. Amazing.
JL: I mean authorising. Who the hell would authorise a flight in a Spitfire from somebody they’d never seen before?
CB: What rank were you at that time?
JL: Flight lieutenant. [pause] Yeah. Lots of things like that happened to me. It’s hard to believe them now.
CB: Yeah.
JL: I guarantee it. I don’t know how you would ever prove it now but [poor old Max Kiddie?] the Aussies. He died. Well most Aussies seem to die young. Most of the ones I knew did.
CB: Yeah. Back at —
JL: Hughie Edwards only made sixty eight.
CB: Yes. Back at Boscombe Down you’ve got all these variety of planes and you’re in the armament flight. So on the single engine planes what are you testing?
JL: Mostly guns. Things like the Avenger I remember, which was quite a nice aeroplane. We didn’t have many single engines. Only for our own test purposes but I used to go around and fly other people’s.
CB: So the Grumman Avenger was — you were doing that for the navy were you?
JL: Yes.
CB: Right.
JL: Yes I remember the Avenger. The Avenger, I think, yes. I can’t remember what. We did anything. And we were all much the same. We were entitled to one day off a week but nobody ever took it. All that happened when there was a non-flying day we all went into Salisbury. Otherwise every day was the same.
CB: Yeah. What other twin-engined aircraft did you fly at Boscombe Down?
JL: I don’t know.
CB: Did you have a Whirlwind for instance?
JL: No. No. Unfortunately not. I liked the look of a Whirlwind. They had the, they had the Wyvern there but it never went into production. It was a sort of larger, uglier looking one.
CB: Wellington.
JL: I’ve made a list somewhere of what I’ve flown.
CB: Ok. So after Boscombe Down. Then what? We’re now getting to what? What time of the war?
JL: Well the Empire Test Pilot School had started and had number one course for only about eight or ten people on that. And they had number two course. That was going on during the time I was there. They were based at Boscombe. I applied for number three course which began on the 13th March 1945 and actually I’d been, I was scheduled to drop the, I can’t remember whether it was the Tallboy or the Grand Slam but the weather had been duff and the 13th of March came up and that was the date of DPDS started so I had to give up that and a chap called Steve Dawson did the dropping of it. But of course 514. Oh my brain. Come on. The Dambusters.
CB: Yeah. 617.
JL: 617. That’s better. They already had them of course.
CB: So talking about Tallboy and Grand Slam. How were you testing those and where?
JL: Dropping them on Ashley Walk in the New Forest.
CB: So did they, they were looking for penetration were they? Or accuracy of flight? What were they looking at?
JL: I can’t remember.
CB: Because they were pinpoint delivery bombs.
JL: Probably the mechanics of dropping it. Yes that would be it. No point in dropping it on Ashley Walk except to make a big hole.
CB: Were they testing the ability of the two bombs to penetrate concrete?
JL: I don’t think so. I think 617 squadron were already doing that. They did the Tirpitz and that thing in France.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Coupole or whatever they called it.
CB: Coupole. Yes. They did a good job on that.
JL: Did a good job of the Tirpitz too.
CB: Yeah. And V3. Tallboys. The guns. The guns in the hillside. So did you, after doing your dropping did they ask you to look at the result of what you’d done?
JL: I can’t remember that. No.
[pause]
JL: I had a wonderful time at Boscombe. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
CB: I bet. So you talked about ETPS the Test Pilot School so what happened there. Number three course.
JL: I was on number three course. Yes. And of course the end of the war came. Chief test pilots round the industry had a habit of coming down and taking lunch with the senior officers and Cyril Feather who was the chief test pilot at Boulton Paul wanted a pilot and somebody suggested me. And I was a bit flattered and thought it would be a good idea so I accepted. And at the end of the course actually we were all being, getting the future sorted out. I had applied for a permanent commission. In the event they didn’t issue permanent commissions immediately. They did what amounted to short service. They didn’t call it short service. Four year contracts.
CB: Yeah. Just Short Service Commissions.
JL: It was a short service commission but they called it something else.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Extended Service Commission
CB: Oh right.
JL: In the event they only issued Extended Service Commissions and I took this offer of Boulton Paul’s but when I got there the chief test pilot engineer was there. He didn’t know I was coming. He was a bit put out understandably. Anyway, we got on alright but there was nothing to do there and I went to ETPS course dinner and we had a number four course I suppose which at this time it was [pause] oh dear [pause] somewhere near Milton Keynes
CB: Oh Cranfield.
JL: Cranfield. Thank you. I’m sorry about this.
CB: That’s alright.
JL: And the Groupie — I can’t think of his name now. A little chap. Said, ‘Are you happy where you are?’ I said, ‘No sir.’ He said, ‘Well, Saunders Roe are looking for somebody. Well, Saunders Roe suited me very well because apart from being on the Isle of Wight my wife lived near Winchester and so I I left Baulton Paul and went to Saunders Roe and [cough] oh dear. I don’t know why my throat’s doing this.
CB: Do you want a break? We’ll just stop for a mo?
[Recording paused]
CB: Now, one thing I didn’t ask you about the Boscombe Down range was you were actually testing American aircraft as well as British.
JL: Oh yes.
CB: One of the night fighters, American night fighters was called Black Widow.
JL: Yes. Flew that.
CB: What was that like?
JL: It was not a very pleasant aircraft to fly really. I think it had remote controlled guns for even firing. It was alright but not a, not a very brilliant aircraft. Yes. The P51.
[pause]
CB: Right. Thank you. So we’re now at Saunders Roe. So what was the task there?
JL: Well they didn’t have a proper pilot there but chief designers [unclear] had been at the fleet air arm. He was doing a little bit. There were, at the time they were building Sea Otters and refurbishing Walruses, the jet flying boat fighter was on the docks. The SRA1. And in the distance was the Princess.
CB: Right.
JL: And so I just joined in flying the Walruses and the Sea Otters and then they, they sent me on a Sunderland conversion course to Pembroke Dock which was very nice. So I had the full OTU course on the Sunderland. Now what had happened at Saunders Roe was that Short Brothers — where did they used to be? On the Thames.
CB: At Chatham. Rochester.
JL: Rochester. Stafford Cripps, who was a trade minister or something, nationalised Short’s and sent them to Belfast. They never did like that including the chairman Sir Arthur Gouge. So he carried these down to Saunders Roe and he was, he was followed by a whole lot of other people including a general manager, Browning and a whole lot and they just didn’t want to be at Belfast. And whilst I was away at Pembroke Dock I got a letter from the managing director [laughs] Captain Clark saying that Geoffrey Tyson would be joining the company as chief test pilot. Well he was one of the Short’s. Well he was chief test pilot at Short’s. I thought well that’s fair enough. He knows his stuff. I don’t. And so I wrote back and said, “Yes, that’s fine by me sir.” And when I got back I met Geoffrey. He was the most peculiar chap. He wasn’t the least interested in me, my background. He didn’t want to see my logbooks. Nothing. He knew nothing about me. And I found it very hard to get on with him. He hadn’t any sense of humour, he didn’t drink, he didn’t smoke. But we staggered along and he did the first few flights on the SRA1 and then he let me have a go. Well then, well we, we didn’t get on at all. Face it. We shared the same birthday but he was twelve years older than me.
CB: Right.
JL: And —
CB: In flying boat terms he was a cold fish.
JL: Then he, he told me one day that John Booth, who was another Short pilot was going to join as his number two so obviously that was my invitation to leave. So I rang up Eric Franklin at Armstrong Whitworth and got a job back there straight away and that was, that was the end of the things. I flew the SRA1 at Farnborough along with several other do’s.
CB: Just to put this —
JL: He was a most peculiar fellow.
CB: To put this into a context if I may. The SRA1 was the first jet powered Flying Boat.
JL: Yes.
CB: So what was the concept and what was it like?
JL: I think the idea was it would be handy in the Pacific area where they wouldn’t have to have a runway. It was quite a powerful machine with four twenty millimetre cannon.
CB: It was a fighter.
JL: It was a fighter. Yes. And although it was a bit bulky for a fighter it was quite lively but of course the Pacific war ended and there was no more call for it. Three were completed and two were crashed. One by Winkle Brown and one by a [Pete Major?] at Felixstowe. Another one is at Southampton.
CB: So you did the course on the Sunderland at Pembroke. That set you up.
JL: Pembroke Dock.
CB: Pembroke dock. That set you up in anticipation of flying the SRA1 did it? Was that the idea?
JL: Yes. That was the Flying Boats in general.
CB: And you were flying the Walruses and the Otters
JL: Yes. The Walruses and the Sea Otter you could taxi on the slipway.
CB: Yeah.
JL: The others needed mooring.
CB: So, what, how did it feel flying a jet flying boat? Because compared with flying a piston engine it was quite different.
JL: Well I had flown jets before. I flew the Vampire and the Meteor.
CB: At Boscombe Down.
JL: Yeah. [pause] I don’t know. Didn’t feel particularly different.
CB: Did you have to have particularly unusual handling techniques because of being a jet engine and getting water in it?
JL: Well they had designed in an extended snout but it was never necessary. It was never used because the spray was always well clear of the intake. I’ve got to have another.
CB: That’s alright.
[Recording pause]
JL: At that time the Isle of Wight was bristling with retired naval captains.
CB: Oh.
JL: Actually I thought he was one of those.
CB: Right.
JL: It turned out to be a captain in the Royal Flying Corps and equivalent of a flight lieutenant.
CB: But he called himself Captain Clark.
JL: Oh he was very fussy about the captain bit.
CB: Yeah. How interesting. What was he like as a personality? As the chairman.
JL: He was a bit peculiar. He had very little technical knowledge. How he came to be managing director I don’t know.
CB: Of an aviation company.
JL: Finance I suppose. But he was a bit of an oddball.
CB: Now after the Saunders Roe situation changing you went back to Armstrong Whitworth.
JL: Yes.
CB: So how did that come about? You just made direct contact or how did it work?
JL: Well when Geoffrey told me John Booth was joining as his number two that was obviously my cue to go so I immediately phoned Eric Franklin who — he’d been an apprentice with me at Armstrong Whitworth and he was then chief test pilot and he offered me a job straight away. So I was on my way within a very few days.
CB: So what was Armstrong Whitworth working on then? We’re talking about 1946 now are we?
JL: ‘49
CB: ‘49. Right.
JL: When I, when went back there the bread and butter was the production of Mark iv Meteors which became Mark viii Meteors. Simultaneously we had the Apollo which was a heap of rubbish.
CB: An airliner.
JL: Yes.
CB: An imitation air liner.
JL: It was supposed to be in competition with the Vickers Viscount. That was because it had to have Armstrong Siddeley engines, which were rubbish so it was never made anywhere. They were very [pause] well, a child of ten could have designed it.
CB: Oh.
JL: We had the 52. The 52 glider.
CB: So how, the AW52 was a flying wing.
JL: Yes.
CB: So could you just explain what the concept there was and the use of the glider first?
JL: Well, one of the purposes of it was to try to develop laminar flow over the wing.
CB: Right.
JL: But it wasn’t very successful because it’s impossible to keep the wind surface clear of squashed flies and things but actually it was a very experimental aircraft. I suppose they had ideas of building a massive passenger aircraft in that form but in this case it was just a two seater but they, it only had twenty six degrees of sweepback which was not nearly enough. And on controls they had several choices. What they chose was an elavon — a combined elevator and aileron. They could have split them and had separate ailerons and elevators or power controls were coming along although they hadn’t reached it yet. Well they wrongly decided on the elavons which meant that fore and aft was a very short lever balance, was very vert sensitive fore and aft, very very heavy laterally and they had a compromise and the compromise was through a spring tab. Are you familiar with a spring tab?
CB: Yeah.
JL: On a spring tab the spring had to be very very weak so that your controls are connected to a very floppy spring and my problem was exceeding the [pause] exploring the higher speed range before flutter set in. I was completely disorientated and I believe that I would have passed out very quickly so instead of that I pulled the blind down. I didn’t do anything properly in the ejection. You were supposed to put your heels on the footrest. I didn’t do that. I just didn’t do it. That’s all. And it had spectacle controls. Somehow or other my knees missed that. They were bruised but otherwise, otherwise ok. So once again I was very very very lucky.
CB: What height were you flying?
JL: About three thousand feet.
CB: And what speed?
JL: Three hundred. About three hundred and fifty. The limiting speed had just been increased and that’s what I was doing.
CB: So it’s the —
JL: Exploring that.
CB: Right. And theoretically what was the maximum speed? Fairly low was it?
JL: Oh I expect so. Yes. Yes not much performance testing was done. It was all sort of handling. Trying to get the controls right.
CB: So you’re at three thousand. Three thousand feet. What sort of speed were you actually flying at at that moment?
JL: Well the last I remember was about three fifty.
CB: It was at three fifty. Right.
JL: We were still at miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And —
CB: The parachute automatically deployed.
JL: No. No.
CB: You had to do it.
JL: I had to do the whole thing.
CB: Yeah.
JL: I had to release the Sutton harness and pull the rip cord.
CB: Right.
JL: I made a very bad landing and hurt my shoulder a bit. Still hurts.
CB: Where? Where did this take place?
JL: A place called little Long Itchington.
CB: I know it. Yes.
JL: Do you know it? South of Coventry.
CB: Yes. Good pub there.
JL: Yes. I’ve been there.
CB: The Blue Light.
JL: The Blue Light.
CB: Yes.
JL: Used to kept by Wing Commander Sandy Powell.
CB: Oh.
JL: Who had been at Boscombe Down. In charge of C flight.
CB: And he he became a Comet test pilot and that blew his mind.
JL: Hmmn?
CB: He had been a Comet test pilot as well hadn’t he?
JL: Sandy?
CB: Yeah.
JL: Well he’d flown all sorts of things.
CB: Yeah. Right. So that’s where you came down. And the plane came down somewhere. Where?
JL: About two miles further on.
CB: Yeah. What? How did you start off with the gliders? The Glider. How did that handle? You were towed up by something and then —
JL: [laughs]. Not exactly. They had, they had a Whitley to tow it off first of all but when I got there they’d just been allocated a Lancaster. That Whitley was the last off the production line and they took it away and broke it up. There was no Whitley any more. But we had a Lancaster which was much better getting the glider up to a decent height. Used to take it up and then do tests on the way down.
CB: So how manoeuvrable was the glider?
JL: Well it was much better. It was two thirds the size of a big one and it was not metal? It was plywood construction which made it much more rigid and the controls were much better. Still a bit odd.
CB: And what sort of test envelope would you be exploring in that?
JL: Oh I don’t know. I don’t remember.
CB: Then you moved to the AW52.
JL: Yes. I only did two and a half flights in the AW52.
CB: Right.
JL: And the other one was grounded. Then they did some vibration tests with it at very slow speeds. When they sent it to Farnborough where it was regarded as a curiosity. I think they tried to resurrect the laminar flow test but it was no good and it finished up as a curiosity and was eventually broken up.
CB: What was the engine power on that? Was it twin engine?
JL: Yes. Two Nenes. Yes. One had two Nenes. One had two Derwents.
CB: Right. So this was a government contract.
JL: Yes.
CB: To examine laminar flows.
JL: A research. A government supported.
CB: So after that you get out. You’re the first person to use an ejector seat in serious operation.
JL: Yes. The Germans had got on of course during the war. They weren’t as good of course. I think they were operated by compressed air. But I think there were a quite a lot of German ejections.
CB: Were there?
JL: And I was the first of the allied side shall we say.
CB: In peacetime. So you injured your shoulder. What did you do after that?
JL: I was off flying for about a month and then I went to central, CME Central Medical Establishment in London and they gave me a going over and sent me home with a little piece of paper which said, “Fits, fits civilian MOS pilot but not to be exposed to the hazards of the Martin-Baker ejection seat.” And so shrieks of laughter at that. Still are. [laughs]
CB: An interesting point though in practical terms the seat is operated by a cartridge. What was the affect? The seat is operated by an explosive cartridge so what did the ejection itself do to your spine?
JL: Well I had already gone up to [Denham?] and got on the test rig and following that I had a little bit of pain in my tail. I mentioned this to my GP and explained what had happened. He said, ‘Well, I expect you bruised it a bit.’ But the pain didn’t go away. It wasn’t constant and so I ignored it. Then when I ejected they x-rayed me and they said that I’d suffered a compression fracture of the first and second vertebrae and what’s more this was the second time this has happened. So the same thing happened both times.
CB: Right.
JL: I think it’s quite common actually.
CB: Yes. It’s just the modern seats are rocket and they still have a sharp acceleration don’t they?
JL: Yes.
CB: So, ok. What did you do next then? Did you return to flying?
JL: Oh yes. I went to Armstrong Whitworth and started again. And well we went through a lot of productions the Sea Hawk, the Hunter 2 and 5, Hunter 7. We had [pause] God. Come on brain. Javelin.
CB: Oh yes. ‘Cause they were building all of these. Some contractors were they?
JL: Yes. I mean we took over. We took over the Sea Hawk complete. Design and everything.
CB: Oh right.
JL: But the others were just sub-contracts. The Hunter 2 and the 5 had Sapphire engines. We built all those.
CB: How long did all that go on?
JL: Well the Argosy came along 1959. And I participated in that for a while which wasn’t a very good aircraft at all. Didn’t have enough range for the RAF to start with. But Glosters closed down. Who else closed down? Avro. Avro’s closed down [pause] No they didn’t. Glosters closed down. Somebody else closed down and the Hawker Siddeley Group was sort of imploding rapidly and so I thought it time to go rather than just sit about and wait to be picked to be sacked. And so I went to the managing director and said I’d be happy to leave and that I had a suggestion that they see me through the necessary, considerable training to obtain an airline transport pilot’s licence and they happily agreed to that. They paid all my expenses. In all for about three months. I got that licence and they gave me a year’s salary and said thank you very much. And unfortunately I was, met another chap who’d got into crop spraying in Africa. Made a lot of money. And he talked me into joining him in the business but unfortunately he had a wife too many and he bought a house out of the business and things were going very wrong and I lost a lot of money and pulled out. And I needed a job and there was a job down here at Shoreham regional air maps. Doing air survey photography and map making. So I took that job to give me, keep me sane while I looked around for an airline job but the only airline job that came my way was flying a Dakota to Dusseldorf at night with the papers. I didn’t fancy that at all. I was well placed because the crewing manager at British United was a chap who’d been at Boscombe Down, Charles Moss and he was looking out for me. And nothing came along. This was in 1964. So I took this job and I got engrossed in the air survey business anyway and passed the point of no return age wise I think and I stayed there until I was sixty five.
CB: So looking back on your RAF career what was the most memorable point, would you say, of your activities?
JL: I think my first tour with that motley crew I had.
CB: In what way?
JL: Well we went everywhere together. Did everything together.
CB: Yeah.
JL: It was rather different with the second tour. We didn’t sort of mix socially so much.
CB: Didn’t you?
JL: Well I had good happy times but —
CB: When were you commissioned? In the first tour.
JL: In my first tour. Yeah. August 1941.
CB: Right.
JL: This was another little story. I was down in the dispersal one day and an airman came down and said, ‘Here. You’ve got to fill this in.’ [laughs] And it was an application form for a commission. So I thought I’d better fill it in which I did and I had to go to London for an interview and my crew, I went down by train late at night. My crew duly saw my off via the George Hotel and I was in a pretty fair state when I got on the train. Got to London in the blackouts. There was an air raid warning on. I had nowhere to go. I eventually found a dim light which was the Church Army or Salvation Army or something. A little hostel. So I went in there and they gave me a bed for the night. In the morning I never saw the proper toilet facilities. I just got, I just got dressed. I had a terrible hangover and went for my interview. I think it was actually Adastral House in Kingsway. Then went back to the squadron and carried on. And then we went on leave and I still had my car. If you had a car and you went on leave you had petrol coupons for the place you were going so obviously the best thing is to have a destination as far away as possible to get the most petrol. So I had the address of a friend in Shrewsbury and I just gave that as my address whilst on leave. Whilst I was on leave they sent a telegram to this address saying commission granted and never to return as pilot officer so I turned up not knowing a thing about this so I had to rush into Cambridge and get myself fitted for a uniform and rushed in again to put it on and went in as a sergeant and came back as a pilot officer. And my crew all came with me as usual and they marched in front demanding that everybody saluted me. [laughs]
CB: Sounds like a riot.
JL: Yeah.
CB: Didn’t work the same way with the Lancaster crew. Is that because you had two people join later?
JL: Well I had a ready-made crew. The commanding officer had gone off sick. He needed some surgery and I took over his crew which was a Wellington crew. And the navigator was a ex-Exeter prison jailer and he had, he had funny ideas. He used to take a .38 revolver with him on ops. Yeah. The wireless operator was, came from Dublin and surprisingly he was a teetotal. The original wireless op and the rear gunner both changed quite quickly having finished whatever they were on and so I had a sort of a scratch crew to start with and when we changed we changed on to Lancs we had two new members and we were all on happy good terms but we didn’t sort of go down the the pub as a gang as we did on the first tour.
CB: How many other officers in your crew? In that case. On the Lancasters.
JL: There were no officers except me in the first crew. The second crew [pause] I had two changes of navigator and they were both commissioned. The rear gunner in both cases both were commissioned. Just in the last legs I had a commissioned wireless op. A Canadian. Gordon Fisher. The rest were all sergeants.
CB: You had an unusually broad experience because you started early and did various other things. To what extent did you come across LMF?
JL: On 40 Squadron we had a chap. I can tell you his name can I?
CB: Ahum.
JL: [Hesketh?]
CB: Yeah.
JL: And all sorts of things kept going wrong with him. He did a lot of second pilot trips. I had my [unclear] [serves me right?] one time prior to going out on ops he retracted the undercarriage. Almost anything to stop him and he was eventually flying second pilot with the flight commander and that aircraft was seen circling on a point on the East Anglian coast well north off the point where we were supposed to stage through and it spun in and crashed and they were all killed including the flight commander. Creegan was it? And this chap Hesketh. You can’t help but think that Hesketh had something to do with that but why they were, they were about fifty miles north of where they should have been. The other one I only know by hearsay which was 12 Squadron. A crew ditched in the North Sea. The dinghy was upside down and they had to sit on the upturned dinghy for three days and they were rescued and of course they were hospital cases. Apparently for days afterwards when they squeezed [the flesh?] water came out. The wireless op I believe, this was all hearsay Flight Sergeant Rose and he was put back on ops far too soon. He wasn’t ready for it and he was whisked off. Presumably pronounced LMF. Which was very very very unkind. My experience of the RAF was that they were always very kind and compassionate to me.
CB: Well.
JL: Particularly Wing Commander Wood.
CB: Jo thank you very much indeed for a fascinating interview.
JL: I don’t think it was very good.
[Recording paused]
JL: One incident at 12 Squadron again. Lancs. We were right over the top of Hamburg a Junkers 88 went. We heard his engines.
CB: Did you?
JL: Straight over the top of us. Missed us by about ten feet I think.
CB: In the dark.
JL: In the dark.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Well in the dark but you could see quite a lot.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Quite a shock.
JL: Yes [laughs] if he’s close enough to hear the engines he’s too bloody near.
CB: Yeah. And you thanked your lucky stars.
JL: I had another one. I had a very good Australian navigator on 12 Squadron. Anyway, he had to miss an op for some reason or other and we were given a Canadian. A chap called Abrahamson. I’d never sort of met him till we got in the aircraft and the target was Essen. And we went off and by the time we got to the Dutch coast he wasn’t making any sense at all but fortunately the PFF were putting down markers at a couple of turning points and the night was absolutely gin clear. You could see everything. You could see the coast and rivers and I didn’t want to take issue with this Mr Abrahamson so I just carried on and we duly, I made the markers that PFF had put down. You couldn’t miss the target because they were marking that as well. Some duly did deliver the bombs and just flew home. Didn’t need any help flying home. We could see everything and of course when we got back we had to report everything to the squadron navigation officer. Mr Abrahamson was never seen again. By the time we got up in the morning he wasn’t there.
CB: Was he —
JL: Off the station. Where he went? Don’t know.
CB: Did you put that down to stress or just as an incompetent navigator?
JL: I’ve no idea. I’ve no idea. I didn’t know the chap. I hadn’t spoken to him.
CB: Right. Thank you.
[Recording paused]
CB: Wife died.
JL: Well [unclear]
CB: Right.
JL: Very sad. That’s right. We had a legal separation and she wanted to marry again so we did the divorce and then she died 1977.
CB: Right.
JL: I remarried and this wife went a bit berserk. I think she was almost certainly she was got onto drugs. She had her own car. Used to disappear into Brighton for days but she had her father who was a mouse living there and looked after my daughter Jenny and eventually she, well I divorced her and the next thing I knew she’d developed cirrhosis of the liver.
CB: Oh.
JL: And due to her very very peculiar behaviour she hadn’t any friends left at all. She was a very very sad case and she committed suicide.
CB: Right.
JL: In 1964. I’d just retired.
CB: A big strain.
JL: I was left with a daughter sixteen. Just doing her O Levels.
CB: Oh were you really.
JL: Fortunately she’s turned out absolute trumps.
WT: Good. Good.
CB: Excellent.
JL: And the son is fine too. So I have a son of seventy and a daughter forty nine and a loving and loyal family.
CB: Is Jenny married?
JL: She should be.
CB: Oh.
JL: I said, ‘Why don’t you get married?’ ‘What’s the point?’
CB: Oh right.
JL: One of those.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Jo Lancaster. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-08
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Sound
Identifier
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ALancasterJO170308
PLancasterJO1501
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Jo Lancaster grew up in Cumbria and joined the Air Force as soon as he was able. After training as a pilot he flew a tour of operations with 40 Squadron from RAF Alconbury. He then became an instructor before his second tour flying Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby. He then became a test pilot at RAF Boscombe Down. He continued to be a test pilot after the war and was the first person to eject from an aircraft in danger using a Martin-Baker ejector seat. In all he flew a total of more than 144 aircraft types.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Coventry
France--Brest
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Hamburg
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1945
Format
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02:00:18 audio recording
12 Squadron
150 Squadron
20 OTU
22 OTU
40 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
B-26
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crewing up
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 110
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Alconbury
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Wickenby
RAF Wyton
recruitment
Spitfire
Tallboy
training
Walrus
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/472/8355/PBlandC1501.2.jpg
47607dc4beca689cae653908ef391be8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/472/8355/ABlandC150817.2.mp3
7d011bdc0c7786974101ce4ef3b8516e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bland, Charles
C Bland
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Bland, C
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Charles Bland (538762 Royal Air Force). He served as an engine fitter.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Charles Bland and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Charles Bland and this is my story of what, the Air Force I suppose. I started off in grammar school, Boston and then I did my school certificate and my school certificate results were sufficient that I was able to become, join the Air Force as an aircraft apprentice in February 1942. February 1942. It was the first time you’d left home and we all had to arrive at Marylebone Station and it was February the 18th, I think it was, February the 18th, and so I left Boston, got down to London and, and found on Marylebone Station a great number of boys, all the same age as me. Most of them the first time they’d ever left home and so I consequently got on this train and I happened to, it was a non-corridor train and you had the compartments and I got in the compartment and they were all Geordies. You sort of, I mean, I’d never met Geordies before or anything and the, the chap who -
[machine pause]
Yep ok, we got in the carriage and that was the first time I’d sort of been away, more or less, and mixed with a lot of other boys from different parts of the country. Eventually we got there and we got to Halton and we, the first time we’d ever been in a room, we got to a room and there was twenty two of us in the barrack room and all of us were exactly the same. Most of us had never left home before and the most, I got, my chap in the next bed to me was a Scotsman, a chap named Jock Blythe and, but anyway that’s how we, we eventually got in and then we, then they, we all had to go off and go in the mess and we all sort of got together and then, of course, became the thing of joining the Air Force and the first thing we had was a medical, and the medical I failed. I failed because in this, for some reason or other, the Air Force had decided that you had to have bite, what were known as biting points and I had one biting point short so therefore I was not fit to be in the Air Force and for some reason or other, I was discharged. So I never joined, so they sent me back to Wendover Station and there was another chap who finished up, an armourer and myself who had failed our medicals and we stood on the platform station and waited for the train. Both, well, dispirited I suppose, and the next thing was, the warrant officer who was known as Beefy Paley eventually came on and called out our names. What was his name? Damn, I can’t remember. Anyway, he became an armourer. So he said, Charles Bland, so we all went back, the two of us went back to Halton and for some miraculous reason they found us a biting point, so I was in the, I eventually got in the service. So I -
MJ: What was your favourite biting point?
CB: The biting. I have no idea. This biting point was how your teeth clamped together I think, I don’t know, I never did find out, but I was in the Air Force. I didn’t care much then. And so we, I came, went back and but then of course, because I’d dropped behind, I was at, my number is a hundred behind where I, where the chaps were originally, but anyway that all came, it all came about but so on February the 19th, February the 19th, I joined the Royal Air Force and got sworn in and got this number, 578762, but er, but you see where the people that I was with, I should have been 662 not 762 but anyway, I went back to visit the beginning. All the initial because there were several methods of getting in as an apprentice. There was service candidate in which was all based on the fact that you had a father or something in the Air Force. By examination which was then you went on, did the exam and various, how you finished up on the exam, or what was known as a direct entry. I was a direct entry because I had sufficient, I had [unclear], what they were called? Credit standards. I think credit standards in my school certificate in maths, physics and chemistry and that allowed me to go as a direct entry. I was a direct entry with others but all of us, a direct entry were in the beginning, direct entry and service candidate had the first choice and then the others who did the examination, depended on where you came in the examination, what you got, how you got treated, but anyway that was it. We all got uniforms and we all won and we all got our classes, all got our classes, but then you had to be, oh I remember this, in this, my barrack room where these, these, all these people joined in and you all had trades. Now, the trades all, you had the one, was the radio trades, ‘cause they went to Cranwell, they didn’t do at Halton but then the others that were all picked out. You all got selected, if you like to put it, what you were going to be. You’d put down on your exam, on your joining what you’d like to be but it didn’t, yeah, it didn’t necessarily mean you did, because, we, in this barrack room where we were, ‘cause we had all those, I wanted to be an engine fitter. Some wanted to be riggers, armourers and instrument makers. Those were the Halton trades and we, we came back and I always remember, oh God, I can’t even remember his name now. Damn, damn but anyway, anyway this we all went this way selected and we got selected and said, you know, I was going to be an engine fitter. That was all. Then there was Jock Blythe, he fancied airframes so he was, and he was alright, but then we had one chap come back and he come back to the barrack room after being selected, and he was in tears and we didn’t quite understand why he was crying, and we thought maybe something had happened, but he came back and said, you know, I mean we were boys and I mean, we’d only met each other but you know you’d think well, why, you know, some sympathy for why he was crying. And why he was crying was that they’d made him an air frame fitter, and he wanted to be an engine fitter, so that was why he was crying. I met him years afterwards and he always, he always used to say, you know he always used to, he was a crew chief same, crew chief with me [unclear] for years on, but it was this business that he cried when he was at Halton, went years on. Years on ‘cause he knew that he, he wanted a different trade. Oh that was something, yes, he cried because he was made an airframe fitter and not an engine fitter, and there we are, but then we did all the, we did all the training that was necessary. Well boys, when you get boys, boys together, all sixteen year olds and you see you, they, you sort of went, you, I think that you went there, you became a disciplined hooligan I suppose really. It was nothing. Because you all went there like choirboys but after you’d been with all this lot, you became as, you know, apprentices. I don’t know how you sort of became, I don’t know, you’ve got, because funny enough how, because you treated NCOs and everything as they were but you’d, I suppose you’d got a cheekiness and whatnot, I don’t know, but you survived. Well survived. I can’t say that but, but a chap, an ex-apprentice I met years and years later and he had been, he had been a Japanese prisoner of war, and for some reason he didn’t talk much about it, but he, his, he reckoned that his survival as a Japanese prisoner of war because he, he treated the Japanese the same way we treated NCOs and whatnot as apprentices, and he put his survival as a Japanese prisoner of war to the fact that he’d been apprentice, and that was his attitude towards authority. So that was it. But that was a digression from that. Anyway, I left Halton after I managed to get an AC1, oh, and I got thrown out of a class once through laughing, but then of course the, but then days as apprentice were something that, incidents, I’ll mention a couple of incidents. One which, because I mean you all swore, you did all sorts of things and the one was that I always remember we were doing, we had, of course, you had engineering drawing. We did all this business there and engineering drawing. Our instructor was, oh, very studious squadron leader I think. Obviously, he was just like a parson and of course, we all lot we had a, because you had, I mean as boys we buggered about, I mean it was, you know. It was one of the things and I always remember my, one of my colleagues, well I’ll say classmate [unclear], Rickards his name was, and he, he was on there and the he said, oh, and of course there that the thing was we always buggered about and of course, we were doing engineering drawing and his, his statement was, ‘Who’s the thieving sod who’s pinched my rubber?’ And this was part of everyone talked about, but the instructor was a bit like a parson he was, and he stopped the class and he said that, he said that it was getting beyond when one boy called another boy a thieving sod. Well, I mean that was of course, that all went and that, that was being an apprentice and then all sorts of things. You were hooligans really, because you did, you did, you know, filing and all the, all the rest of it. You learned how to file, you learned how to rivet, you learned how to do all sorts of things and the, another thing when you did welding or, welding was one and of course, we had, you always got somebody there who was, would get rather picked on. Picked on in a class and one who was a, who was trouble was a bloke named Bryce, he came from Devon and Trevor Boone was another, he was, Trevor Boone was a, he was a bit of a softie. He was rather, he had a tendency I suppose to be bullied a bit. Yeah, because Bryce was a bugger you see, he was, he, we’d do soldering abrasion, welding, welding and of course all doing, we’re doing, we’re doing that. Not arc welding, it was oxyacetylene and of course, then of course, a pair of pliers that you use and Bryce, of course, played his flame on Boone’s pliers, so that when poor old Boone picked his pliers up, he got his hands burned. Devilish things sort of like that. Oh, and then of course, you, ‘cause we had, there again, McDonald beds. Now, McDonald beds were solid iron beds but they had casters on because you had to, you had to make your bed up in the morning. You had this bed. One, the bottom half slid into the top half and your blankets had to be your biscuits which were the three biscuits. Mattresses, or whatever you like to call them, had to be stacked on one another. Your blankets had to be folded with, we had sheets, so the sheets had to be put between the blankets, and then one blanket wrapped around the whole lot that so it sort of made like a sandwich, if you like and it, that was it. Beds have to made up as laid down. That was the one of the comments that you had to do, yeah. But then we, when we managed and the time came then and of course, we had our drill and had to be marched up and down and of course, we had the pipes and the drums and we were all, and it was, it was you carried your books, you carried your overalls and you had these horrible ground sheets which were meant to be capes, and the trouble was when it rained, and you were marching and whatnot, your legs got soaking wet because the damned ground sheet came to your, it was only came just below your knees, you know, the edge of it, but there we are. What else did we do? We used to march back and forth and, oh aye, that was another thing. We had, because we had various engine, as engine fitters of course, we started off on basics, which was an old Gipsy engine, a four cylinder Gipsy engine we had and then of course, you, you moved off, but then of course, we were in, at Halton we were in, started off in what was known as the old workshops, and then they decided, because we had airmen and wartime fitters there, they decided that they’d move the apprentices to the new workshops which was, if anyone knows Halton, I don’t know if they’re all like that now, but the old workshops, the new workshops were newer buildings and across the other side of the road. I can’t remember our position now but anyway it was across the other side of the road and we all moved. There was er to, going down into the new workshops was a downhill run, if you like to put it, and of course, we happened to be when we, when they changed to the new workshops, we happened to be on the radial engines, which were mercury engines, Bristol Mercury’s, and we were on radials and then we had to move the whole class and our engines from the old workshops to the new workshops, and we had an instructor named Mr Petty. He was the instructor. And so as a class, we moved our engines, but the thing is, when you get a bunch of boys and all of us, they decided to move these engines and of course, these engines were in stands, on castors so we pushed them up to the top of the hill, but then there was a downhill run to the new workshops, so of course they decided then, of course, being boys and whatnot, we decided that the only way to get these down there was to run them down and stand on the stand so that it went down like a trolley. Well of course, this was all, this did very well until we came and there was a curb by the side and of course the next thing was, one of the engines of course, hit the curb and thank goodness there was a bank there. It went into the bank and tipped over but it was not completely over, but of course, it had hit this bank and of course, we came down. We had to heave this engine back on its trolleys and push it back into the workshops, and then of course the thing was, we all got there, and the comment, Mr Petty said that he could not understand why one of his engines had got soil amongst the cooling fins, but nobody enlightened him that it had fell, it had fallen over. But then you had, and I always remember, you know, all, you know, you remember these sorts of things. I remember we had another instructor was a Mr Palmer and Mr Palmer was quite a, he said, ‘If you’re using a hammer, use it’. Don’t, you know, don’t dilly dally with it. Use it. And there was a boy called Hind in our class and, Mr Palmer, I don’t know what happened there, whether it was a hard face or whatnot, but he hit something. The hammer head came off and it finished up in Hind’s stomach so it, it was quite funny really because all it was, was Mr Palmer just extricated this hammer head out of Hind’s stomach and carried on. Hind was a bit breathless but never mind. But there was the other thing we used to do oh, and that was again Butch Hind, was, we did magnetos of course, but then of course, using magnetos of course, you can charge, you know, the thing is, you get a spark and whatnot but they were doing magnetos, and it was found that Hind, by judicious of winding these hand starter magnetos up, that Hind could be charged up and I don’t know if it was, he wore rubber boots or, so he was, you had to gently sort of, Hind would hold the leads and get himself charged up and then someone would go up, put a finger near his ears and he’d get a crick across the ears, you know. It was, oh we did all sorts of things like this, I mean, it was ridiculous really. And we had, we had a lot of civvy instructors and we had one for basic was a Mr Tatum, and Tatum could do anything with a piece of metal that I know, but then you had, he used to be doing because you had to have your, some on the file and some on top. You had to hold the files correctly and if you weren’t holding the files correctly and you were doing something, you suddenly find you had a whack on the finger, because you weren’t correct and he used to come around and give you a whack on the finger. But it was, you know, I suppose, brutal really. I mean you wouldn’t have it now, ‘cause they was being mistreated or something. I don’t know but I mean, you just accepted it. You accepted it. Well he was, but I’m ok. There we are. Then of course, you had your various exams, and that was another one. Petty, another one. He got killed. He went aircrew and he became a pilot, he got killed in a Canberra. Colin Petty. And we had, during exams, there was various means of making bolts and one was what was known as a cold headed bolt, which had all these had different markings in, ‘cause this was all part of the thing of knowing what your markings of all these various equipment and steel and everything were, and one was, a bolt was known as a cold headed bolt and it was a bolt where the head had been pressed in cold. Not, not been turned. It was pressed and this had a ring around the top, but in the exam, it was, ‘How do you recognise a cold headed bolt?’ And of course, Petty didn’t know, and so Petty wrote, ‘Wears a balaclava helmet’. He got seven days for that, seven days jankers for that, for being frivolous on an examination paper. That was how, that’s how things were, you know, you got done for everything. You couldn’t smoke. Oh you got a smoking pass at eighteen, but you weren’t allowed to smoke everywhere and the toilets down in workshops of course. Toilets, yeah, and you could hear because you could have puffs, I mean, you could make a cigarette end last with a pin till the last puff. Oh dear, it was all sorts of things like that. As an apprentice, you did everything, always pushed to the limit, and it, and all your instructors. Oh, and there was another incident, I always remember that we had a named, chap named in our class, Dicky Burke, and Dicky Burke was, he was a oh, he was the same as anyone else, but one time we had a, we had er notes. A corporal, I can’t even remember his name, a corporal was giving, he was an instructor and of course he said we had to, I can’t remember what it was. Anyway, he said take, get your notebook and take these notes, and Dicky Burke said, ‘We’ve already got these notes’, and the corporal said, ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ll still do it’, you know. And under his breath, Dicky Burke said F you, and the corporal heard him and so he was wheeled up to the squadron leader, and in less than two hours, Dicky Burke was, was doing a stretch of twenty eight days in the guardroom, but he still had to come to, well he was doing a stretch but he, he, he was doing his spell in the guardroom but he still had to come to school. He still had to do his doings, so one of the corporal apprentices, a bloke named Ted Atkinson who was a friend of mine, had to go to the guardroom and march him down to school and then march him back up to the guardroom for his, his lunchtime and any off duty, so he did his twenty eight days on off duty, more or less, so he was one of these, one of these incidents that er, but he did the twenty eight days and was shovelling coal from one side to the other and all the rest of it, but as I say, they used to make you do anything. I don’t know, but that was Dicky Burke and his twenty eight days. I’m trying to remember humorous incidents of things and very, it was, of course we were apprentices anyway but then, of course, the other thing was they had Air Training Corps, ‘cause they were the civilian side. I mean, most of them were the same age as us but of course, we were apprentices as opposed to theirs was, well Air Training Corps wasn’t it? People that you join and they had the air training corps come and did a spell well in the camp near Halton, which of course upset those, a bit of an upset, and of course the apprentices raided them as normal, it was normal sort of business. Used to, oh dear oh dear. Apprentices. The other one was, all daft things really. And of course, you had not money, you used to get, we used to get paid a fortnight of three [unclear], nearly new two shilling pieces. That was our pay. Three, three every fortnight, which I mean you had, you could buy chips in the NAAFI and the old rock cakes and whatnot, but, but then of course, there was, generally you used to run out of money or something and they used to do odd, and there was one time, oh, what was his name? He was short of money, and then the thing was that we had, because there was twenty two of us in a room, twenty two of us including a corporal or a snag which was a LAA, a leading aircraft apprentice. He had one stripe on his arm and then you had a corporal apprentice, a corporal he had was probably in the bunk at the end of the room, was the corporal apprentice, but then of course, then they’d get someone short of money and one of the, one of the, one I remember is, I can’t remember his name now, never mind, short of money and then it said was halfpenny around the room. That would give him ten P. A halfpenny around the room and he’d run around the barrack block stark naked which was a, oh God that was brass and of course, he said he’d do it and that so everybody, but then of course, you had to, then had to, everybody, this was immediately transmitted all around the rooms that he was going to run around the block stark naked, and so that meant that everybody was, when he set off, everybody was at the barrack block windows, shouting and cheering him on as he went around. And that was another incident, anything to make money. And then there was, you had jankers, ‘cause that was another one. Your jankers, seven penneth for doing anything. No I managed to avoid that, I wasn’t caught smoking or missing church parade. Anything to scrounge. You get seven penneth and then, but then you were allowed, they decided that you, that the jankers would be separated from the other boys. For what reason I don’t know. And there was a Corporal Croft. He was a corporal in the DI we had and they put him in charge of, ‘cause we had the barrack blocks but then we had wooden huts, and they decided to put the, the jankers in the, or a wooden hut with this corporal in charge which was then, ‘cause he was Corporal Croft, and that was known as Croft’s Cottage, but I think, I think they abandoned that because you got all the ne’er-do-wells who wanted to pinch anything all at, do and that was not, they weren’t distributed cause they used to supposed to do jankers in the cookhouse and they were the ones that always got fed the best, ‘cause they always managed to purloin something. Food or something. It was, it was all part of the game. Part of the game. I mean the best of it was of course, some of the worst offenders became commissioned officers. That was the best of it wasn’t it? I mean years, years on. There was one there, Hammer Mallet, Tom Mallet. He was, he was one but he became a squadron leader engineer. Just shows you ,doesn’t it? How to become commissioned? Become jankers, you know. But then, that was the years. Went through that lot and of course came, I mean we were doing our drill with our rifles and bayonets and all the rest of it as well, and then came the day of passing out and then you had to do, but then you had your exams but then your exams depended on where you were doing, whether if you got, if you got called that you would do your oral exams and boarded, as they used to say, and you’d go for your board to these, you know, either senior NCOs or officers and you were questioned on your trade. I mean, as well as written exams, you had written exams as well which was, you know, like school and whatnot, but your boards were you were all against mostly to gain your trade. They asked you, you know, how you would identify some stainless steel or some question how would you do this or do the other, various things so, but then you, you’d do your board and then if you were you didn’t know how you were doing, you sort of go back again and then, and sit down and go back where you came from and then someone would say, ‘They want to speak to you again’. And you’d think, now that meant either one of two things. That A) you hadn’t got enough marks to pass out or B) you got sufficient marks that they were doing, that they were doing you that instead of AC2 pass out or AC1, you got an LAC. That, that was the thing but I mean, you had to know whether you’d done well enough or poorly or not because if they asked you back again and you’d done very poorly and you were only getting to re-boarded, you again to become an AC2 and I got, I had to go back again because I didn’t get an LAC. Anyway, I did, I finished up AC1, that was how I passed out. I passed out then from Halton, that was then and they said, right then, we are posted. Where were your choices to be posted? Well I come from Lincolnshire so I suppose you put Lincolnshire. I mean, ten to one you never got what you put down for. I put Lincolnshire and I finished up, posted to Kirton Lindsey. That was, and of course the thing was, in those days, and you used to get trains and you didn’t know where you were and blackouts, and you get on a train. There was several of us posted to Kirton Lindsey, I think about four, four of us posted to Kirton Lindsey, and of course, on these trains, you didn’t know where the hell you were going. You got a train, you had to get a train to so and so, and then of course, the only time you ever knew where you were, was if some porter called out, you know, the name of the platform or stop where it was, and we got out at Kirton Lindsey. There was four of us and some airmen as well, and so we got out there and some of the airmen were worldly, more worldly wise, get transport, and they eventually came, got transport and of course, it’s a blackout, you didn’t know where the hell you were. Got to, went to this, got to the station and eventually the guardroom and we were then sent to transit block. Transit block. And the transit room, you went in there and you, you were, I can’t even remember now whether you had, whether there was bedding in there or you had to go to the bedding store and get your blankets, I think. Anyway, doesn’t matter. Got there and eventually we got dished out to the general office, and then we were given wherever we were going, so it’s, you were sent down to the tech side and then they decided where you were going, ‘cause I mean, they were riggers or fitters. I finished up in R&I. R&I. We were doing majors on Spitfires there. Got R&I, some of them got others. And there was another place called Hibaldstow, which was a satellite of Kirton Lindsey. Two of them got sent to Hibaldstow. As I say I was sent to, to R&I. I don’t know, I think I was the only one out of our group who went to R&I, which is Repair and Inspection, which was the major. We were doing majors, majors on Spitfires but, so we used to have the flights when the flights board there, I mean, I mean, oh, and the other thing was, I must have mentioned this, the other thing they had now, so that we, we had, ‘cause we had WAAF fitters as wel,l and we had, I was put into, put into a gang with Corporal, Corporal Shear was in charge and I was put in this gang and of course, I was an, I was an AC1 apprentice fitter. Apprentice, ‘cause the others in the gang were all wartime blokes. One was a bank clerk, one had been, one was, one had been a waiter, I think, but they were a good lot anyway.
[pause for phone]
So we, now, we got to Kirton Lindsey now so that we got to the WAAF fitters, and I was put in a gang, and I can remember Corporal Shear was the corporal in charge, and all the others were wartime. Well one was a fitter, two mechanics I think, we were doing majors on Spitfires and Sadie was the WAAF, and Sadie was, I mean I was only, what, eighteen and whatnot, but I didn’t fancy her really, but I think she rather well she, I don’t think she fancied me. All she did was bugger me about really, ‘cause she would, if you were doing on the engine and whatnot on there and she was sitting on the main plane she’d, and you were doing something, she’d suddenly put her legs out and wrap them around you, you know. But she wasn’t really my type at all, so I didn’t really fancy her and she, the trouble with WAAFs. they either overtightened things or didn’t tighten things up enough. Couldn’t, plugs. they never put the plugs in tight enough and they’d bloody shear off a bloody two by eight or something like that. but anyway that was, that was the WAAFs. But incidents. Incidents, oh the other thing of course, they were Mark II Spitfires and they had Merlin 12s, and they had Coffman starters and cartridge so that you had a cartridge, and one of the things was the flight sergeants, ‘cause we had, oh all part and parcel, you had to, you had your sort of annual booze up and whatnot, and of course, then money had to be put in and the flight sergeant used to fine you for A) for being late if you were late for work or whatnot you’d, he’d fine you sixpence or something, which all went into the fund, and they used to do cartridge starters. I mean, you had to be starting a Merlin on, with a cartridge. You could do it with one cartridge or two but if you had more than two, he used to fine you sixpence a cartridge. So, so the thing was, you had to make sure it was primed and everything before you could, he’d be there, but he’d listen to you, and you would fire up on one and you’re all right. Fire up on two and if it didn’t fire you think, God there’s another sixpence gone you know. So that was the fine, I mean that was a fine for using too many cartridges, but that that was one of the things. Another incident here I always remember, we changed over from Mark II’s to Mark Vs and the Mark Vs were coming in, and this was during the summer of 1944. The warm weather. And we came, we were in, we were in R&I and of course, we were duty crew, if you like, and of course we were at, they were bringing in these Mark Vs and we were, all of us nice summer evening it was, sitting outside and we were all thinking of going down the boozer, and he said, ‘Righto we’ve got, we’ve got four, four spitfires coming in.’ And they were all sitting there in the sun, at the wall of the hangar and the first one came in and of course, then you were all sitting there. Who was going to see the first one in, and I said, ‘Oh bugger it, I’ll see the first one in’, and off I went in to see the first one in. Taxied in and, lo and behold, it was when, when the pilot of course, took her helmet off, it was an ATA pilot. A blonde. She had blonde hair, and who she was I don’t know, and of course, I saw this one in and of course immediately the others saw this girl taxiing this one in, they all rushed out to see the others in, but anyway I don’t know who she was, I’ve no idea. But I often think of the ATA pilots because, oh she was older than me but, and she had blonde hair and I often wonder, having seen ATA pilots, you know, years gone on and wondered who it was. But that was, we got Mark Vs then instead of, but then of course, the time came and then the incident I mentioned of the only time we got involved in Bomber Command In those days was, we had a Spitfire lab down at North Creake, which had Stirlings on and we had to do an engine change, and doing this engine change underneath the belly of a Stirling. That was quite interesting but then that was, then I’ve, then of course, my posting overseas came so then I went up to Blackpool and met all, a lot of the chaps who were at Halton with me. So that was, so we were at Blackpool there, getting kitted out. Marks and Spencers of Blackpool, well then because they had all the, which was Marks and Spencer, had all the kit in there so you, and when the tower, well anyway, that was September ‘44. We went, went to Gourock. Gourock and then we boarded this, I can’t remember even, can’t remember what my, my draft number was. Anyway, but anyway we were boarded on the Orion and the thing was, was this a battleship, no, it was a cattle ship, because there were five thousand, troops, troops in it. That was an incident. There was Army at the bottom, Air Force in the middle and the Navy at the top ‘cause they were the best. Anyway, so we, we went out on that, through the Suez ‘cause then, I think they’d cleared the Med of subs. We went to India via, via the Suez Canal and not around, around the end of South Africa. That was it, no incidents. We had some ex Australian prisoners of war on board and they were well fed, and they used to give us a bit of grub now and again, but and then eventually we got, got to India, but of course, the other thing of course, I’d better mention it that was the, the beginning of my marriage I suppose, ‘cause this friend of mine, who had had the, this corporal apprentice, had to go back to my brother in law who was, he was also at Halton but he was two entries after me, and my friend was a corporal apprentice, was in charge of his room and my brother in law, Bill, he, he gave my, he had a twin sister who became my wife, but he’s, this corporal apprentice started writing to Margaret, but then, I don’t know, it all petered out or something, and then of course, we came on, came on the boat going to India and of course, was one of the things, anyone got any girls to write to? And he gave me Margaret’s address and said, ‘Don’t tell her I gave it to you’. So I came out of the top of my head was a load of rubbish that I found her address floating on the deck of a bloody troop ship’ you know’ but anyway that was that. I wrote to her and of course that was, we got out to India and I was then posted from [unclear], I went to a place, I was posted down to Ceylon to a repair and salvage unit ,121 RS, oh R&SU I suppose. We just used to call it just RSU. So we went down by seven days on the rail, down to India, down all the way down in from Bombay, down all the way down India. Took us a week. Then to Ceylon and we eventually ended, finished up in a place called Vavuniya in Ceylon, and we formed, well I think we formed this R&SU there, We serviced Beaufighters. We had two Beaufighter squadrons and a Spitfire squadron. I can’t remember the Spitfires, but the Beaufighter squadrons were 22 and 217, and we did engine changes and then I got, I got detached to 22 Squadron because they were short of fitters, and I got detached there for a, for a spell. So, I was doing, working with 22 Squadron but then of course, everything changed and they decided that we were going on a, we got, we got sent, we got notification we had to pack up, what was it? Operation Marbrisca I think it was, and get everything, gear and of course it never came about and we then, we moved the whole lot, the unit moved up into India. And Marbris, that was an interesting thing because it was years, years later after I came back home and the I went to, went to school and there was a master at school who had also been out there, but he was in, in SEAF or SEAC operations and I mentioned about this, oh years about this Operation Marbrisc, and he told me what it was. It was in actual fact, they were going to take the island of Phuket. I mean we called it something else as you can imagine which is, I mean, is a holiday island now, and the idea was, they were going to build an airfield on Phuket and operate from there against the Japanese, but then he said that the casualty situation would be, was exorbitant and they cancelled it. So that was where we were going. This Marbrisc. Anyway, that was cancelled and we moved up into South India, basically to, I think it was preparation for the Malayan invasion, ‘cause we moved about. God, as an RSU, we sort of did anything. We did some servicing on Thunderbolts of all things. Then, then we sort of petered out and did nothing really. We sort of, all we did was, oh and then of course the next thing was, they said, oh we got issued with jungle green, so we all got issued with jungle green and we had, then we got to have equipment to do this invasion or whatnot, back up so we got a lot of new waggons and cranes and all sorts of things, all ready to do this repair and salvage, because we were supposed to, I think, we were supposed to service two Beaufighter squadrons and a Spitfire squadron. I don’t know whether they were the same ones that we had before but, but then of course, they dropped the atom bomb and that was, that was the end, that was the end of our sortie to Malaya, but, but then of course, the whole thing wound up. What was the next troubles? ‘Cause it became, the whole thing then, the war had ended and all the blokes that were in the war in Europe were getting demobbed, and people with the, on the unit with the same demob number were not being demobbed, because they were in the Far East, and then of course, we came, these problems what do they call them? What do they call them? Riots I suppose. I think they termed them as riots when they were bloody you know, I don’t know, you were nearly court martialled but anyway, but then of course that all, this came, the whole of India was like that but of course, we were regulars so we, we weren’t involved. They, we, we just didn’t get involved in all that, any of these struggles at all, but then of course, our lot folded up and we were posted to, and then they said, oh we’re going on occupation force Japan. {Unclear] and we went to a place in India called Tamberam, to get to move out but then they cancelled the whole lot so we were less than with all this gear and whatnot, in this Tamberam, and then they decided that we were going to be disbanded, we were. So all the equipment had to go back. All these new lorries and cranes and whatnot, so they were all moved and taken to a place called Visakhapatnam, I think it was. Viso we called it, and they took all this and there were hundreds and hundreds of vehicles. All just, all lease lend stuff. And that was, and they shifted us to a place called Redhills Lake, which had been a flying boat station, to disband. Well, and of course the thing was, and it had a lake there so we did a bit of swimming. That was for a while and apart from that, we did nothing, just sort out equipment, half of it got dumped in the lake and then the day came when I was posted. We were posted, we were distributed and I was posted to 353 Squadron at Palam, and that was Delhi, and that was right up north, and so the next thing was of course, to get the train from, was it Madras, I suppose. I think, I can’t remember where, so, to Delhi and oh, it was a troop train. It was marvellous, marvellous train because it had been a casualty train for, for carrying wounded, not a trooper and oh, it was most comfortable. Had a real good trip ‘cause against all the others we had a, ‘cause normally the trains in there you had same as the doings. You had the hard wooden benches and the ones that slap down on chains for sleeping on, but anyway that was, but anyway we got to Palam and that was 353 Squadron was a Dakota squadron, but then of course, they’d centralised servicing really so that it didn’t matter what squadron you were on, you were, you were put in workshops. I was in engine repair and in engine repair was you did anything really. A Pratt and Whitneys, it didn’t matter what came in and you said, because Palam was a, was a main, well it’s now Delhi airport isn’t it? I think, yeah, and Dakotas, but we used to get all the mail stuff come through. That was the Yorks. And we had also the, was it British Air? No, BOAC was it? BOAC in those days. And it had BOAC Yorks came because the airport was at, was at Palam. Well it was Delhi Airport, but part of Palam, but just around the peritrack and so I did, I did a spell with Dakotas and Yorks. I had engine changes on Yorks. We actually did minor a inspection on Lancasters that flew in. Oh, I did a couple of jobs on BOAC Yorks, but they had landing trouble and they had no fitters, and they used to get sort of co-opted on the engineer, BOAC engineers. They had no, no people at all, so I did a couple of jobs on BOAC Yorks while I was there and then of course, came a time that I didn’t get mid tour leave although I’d put my name down, I wasn’t lucky enough to get any. And then of course in April, oh, then of course the Partition was on. India was, and things were not, things were not very good then. You, you didn’t, if you wanted to go out you made sure that at least there was two or three of you together, ‘cause things, I don’t know why, they didn’t like us really. And then in April, I got a raise and I came home in April. I came home. I went out on the Orion and came back on the Chetril and then we arrived back. It was quite, they say about you know seeing England when you come back, it was, go on, anyway we landed at Southampton and we had to be shipped up to Burtonwood near, oh where is it near? Oh God, Burtonwood. Warrington isn’t it? I think it’s at Warrington. Anyway, when it comes to the point there, we got back to there and everybody was, of course all they wanted to do was get home, and they would have flown us and said this, that and the other, until everyone was chuntering and whatnot the bloke at Burtonwood said, ‘Right’, he said, ‘Get on the lorries and you can go to the bloody station’, you know, it’s up to you where, you know, you go. We’d got our warrants and I think there was, I think a train going south and a train going north and it cleared the station. Didn’t care, you really didn’t care where you went as long as you left there and on the way home. So, I sort of, I got from Warrington to Manchester, and Manchester and of course, while I’d been, while I’d been overseas, my parents had moved from Lincolnshire. They’d moved to Yorkshire, and so I didn’t know where I was going home so the er, got to, I got to Manchester and got to Leeds, and I thought what and I got my parent’s telephone number so I thought, oh I’d better, I’d better ring them and let them know, and so I phoned up and my mother answered and of course she said, ‘Oh your father’s in, in the Isle of Man at the moment’, ‘cause I said, ‘well can you, can you pick me up at the station?’ And so anyway the incidents, isn’t it? So, so I said, ‘Well I’ll go to Harrogate’. I had to go to Harrogate, from Leeds to Harrogate and the, get in the train and the, ‘cause I had two kit bags and your webbing and everything and you know you were sort of carrying these down, and of course I’d asked where the train, the -
[phone ringing]
Train was there and of course I’d got my kit bag on, and you know you’ve got a kit on, a kit bag on your arm, your webbing and a kit bag on the top, and of course there was an airman in a carriage doorway, and I says, I said, oh you know , ‘Open the door’, and I bend over and let the kit bag drop on the floor, and my father was on the, on the train and he picked it up, so and that’s how I met my dad. He came and then my sister, mother at the station. So, incidents, you know, that, ‘cause I came back and of course my father was on the train with the gear, and so my mother and sister at the station. The incident I’m trying to think of. Not that is, ‘cause I didn’t, oh dear, I didn’t stop by. OK now then, we’ve got to, we’ve got to Knaresborough, that was where my parents lived, so and the next thing I had to do, as I’d been writing to Margaret for, oh, since, when was it? 1945. I wanted to get down to Hereford, so I went down to, went down to, go down to Hereford but it’s quite strange really that I’d been writing to her there, but it was, I’d got down to, got down from Manchester, get down to Hereford and the, the last stop before Hereford is Shrewsbury, and I debated whether to get off the train. Why I don’t know but there we are, but anyway it all worked out. We met on Hereford station and that was, that was it, so the beginning of our relationship. Yeah. Anyway, then that all finished and the next thing was of course, we got posted and then, oh God, that was it. Posted, posted to Wheaton, Wheaton, what the hell was at Wheaton? I thought what on earth’s there? Blackpool, near Blackpool. So off I goes to, to Blackpool. Get back on the train, get off at Wheaton and what’s Wheaton? Trainings. Bloody training station, nothing to do with aeroplanes. Bloody drivers, fitters, blacksmiths, welders, everything bar anything to do with aeroplanes, and I thought, ‘What the hell am I doing here?’ So, anyway, of course, I arrived on the station and this is in, and I thought, you know, and I went and they said, you’re going to, you’ll be on one wing, I think it was. MTMs, Motor Transport Mechanics. So what the hell am I doing here? And anyway of course, I went in to the general office, off I went, report to squadron leader so and so, so I went to him and immediately I went in there and of course, there was a few, there was an MT fitter and whatnot, and me. So, anyway, I immediately said, complained, ‘What am I doing here?’ you know, and MT and all the rest of it, and this officer, whoever he was, said I was posted as an instructor. I said, ‘I don’t know anything about MT at all’. And this, I remember this officer, who he was, he said, ‘You’re an ex apprentice, aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes sir’. ‘Well’, he says, ‘In that case’, he said, ‘You can do any bloody thing’. So that was that. That was me teaching motor mechanics, MT mechanics, and I knew nothing about bloody brakes or anything like that. Well, I think, anyway so I went down to this, where was it? Where I was supposed to be? The phase office, that was it, the phase, the phase office, and there was a sergeant MT fitter there, and I said, ‘Well I know bugger all about motor transport’. He said, ‘Well I’ll tell you what’, he said, ‘I’ll put’, he said, ‘you’ll be on’, I’ve forgotten what it was, but he said, ‘I’ll put you with, there’s a civilian instructor’, he says. ‘You can have a spell with him’, he said, ‘you’ll pick it up from there’. Oh God love us all. So, anyway, I was with this, oh I can’t remember his name, and he was an ancient civvy and so I was picking up brakes and steering, and I never knew there was a blinking theory on brakes and how line up and all this business at all, and of course I was doing this and that, was the, I was on the first week. There was a fortnightly course for this MT mechanics. A fortnight course so I was in there for a fortnight. I’d done one week and there was a fracas in there, and one of the corporal instructors had clobbered a, or hurled a coupling at one of the trainees, and he was then immediately taken off instructing, and the only person to take, put on, was me, and he was on the second week and I’d only done the first week, and the second week was completely, was ridiculous. But anyway, so I had to do it. Have you ever taught, taught people about something you know nothing about? Well, that was what it was with me, instructing people. I had to try to gain a, oh dear, it was ridiculous, but anyway. Then, of course, funnily enough, then they started to er, a phase on diesel engines. Well funnily enough I’d been very interested in diesels, even in India, and I had had my father send me books on diesels, high speed compression ignition engines and whatnot, and so therefore I knew quite a bit, and when they started this phase on diesels, I said well I, you know, I’d done diesels. Oh, they were quite, and shoved me on diesels straightaway, so that was, that was the way it went. I finished up doing diesels and did various other things and then of course I, I, I, I wanted to get away from Wheaton. I’d liked to get down south somewhere ‘cause I mean I was courting then, I mean, and it’s a long way from, from Wheaton, Blackpool down to Hereford, which I used to do on a blinking short weekend. It was bloody fast because I used to have to, I’d travel all night back and have, get my breakfast and kit bag and sort of virtually go straight to the classroom, you know, and get straight, but anyway, but then of course I, I got, I got a what was it a payform 36 posting, because for some reason, I don’t know how I managed it, but anyway down to Hereford. At Hereford. And I was still instructing but when I got down there, I found out there was nothing there, it was equipment assistant. Stores bashers. I thought what the hell am I doing here? But then of course, I got there and the next thing that I’d got there was another, in fact an apprentice, ex-apprentice was a bloke named Don Rigby, and he was posted there as an instructor. He was, he’d managed to get fitter one scores in his career and so the two of us there. What the hell were we doing here? But then of course, we went down to the general office who sent us to this. He said, ‘Yes, you’re definitely posted here’. I thought someone had made a mistake, you know, but then we went to, the pair of us went down to see this squadron leader, and I said, ‘Well what are we doing here?’ I mean. ‘Well you’ve got to tell them all about’, you know, ‘it’s yours to sort of give them an interest in the mechanical things of aeroplanes and engines’. And I thought what am I doing, and we had no syllabus, we had nothing, so we had to, between the pair of us, we sort of worked it out, but God what a, talk about a working week. I think we, our working week was about two or three hours, all week, working week was two or three hours, so we were there so I mean, but we got on ‘cause all the equipment, all the store bashers, instructors, were senior NCOs. We were the only corporals there in the doing but er, we got on very well with them because if they wanted to go off shopping, we’d take their class on, you know. It was, it was or if, you know, something they were getting short of time and they’d, they’d use our time and it was doing but anyway, that all went on and then that collapsed but then of course, at that period of time, I’d been courting. This was 1949 I get, I got married, we get married. So, I got married in 1949, got back off the honeymoon, to the bunk was a piece of paper slipped under the door and it says, ‘Go to the general office ‘cause you’re posted to MCOS’. MCOS. What the hell was that? MCOS. Never heard of it. Nobody doing and this was at Wythall, which is just outside Birmingham. So, Wythall. Wythall. I’d never heard of a Wythall. No airfield that I knew of at Wythall, but anyway MCOS. We’d no idea. So anyway gets to MC, gets to, my, my colleague who was the other corporal there, he got posted, he got posted to, he got his posting to Suez Canal, so he was, he was gone anyway and there was MCOS, so got down to Wythall and doing I found out that this was what was known as the Mobile Classroom Operating Section. So I was back on instructing only in a mobile classroom. I was, as I’d done diesels and they put me on wheels and tyres for starters because I’d been, I’d been steering and whatnot, but then that, that, I can’t remember but I think the instructor on diesels, he was posted and they knew I’d had, done diesels instructing experience and they put me on to the diesels.
So that was that, but that was out on the road for six weeks and back at Wythall for a fortnight, so we roamed the countryside teaching. You went to any station that wanted you and you’d instruct on whatever’s going there, but there’s that was the biggest lot of rogues. The drivers, mostly the drivers, ‘cause you had a driver and instructor with each wagon and the drivers, I think they were the biggest bunch of rogues I’ve ever come across. Pinch anything. And oh, and then the other thing of course we, we were at Wythall which was, had been a balloon base, but Austin’s had taken half of it over to store, you know, their manufactured equipment and whatnot. Gearboxes and whatever you could think of and of course, it was, this was all partitioned by wire netting from the mobile classrooms and of course, knowing the drivers and whatnot and the people that were in Austin’s store place and whatnot, people got, stuff got passed over the wire which as the drivers were traversing the country, you’d get to a transport café and you could sell anything so, you know, parts of cars got sold but then they got wise with it, because the police, Air Force police and whatnot, got wise to it and you got, they, they stopped the wagons at the guard room and got searched and so you couldn’t have any, any Austin components in there, but they used to be fiddling the thing. They used to, somebody, one bloke even moved a whole family because, I mean, the classrooms were big and so they use it as a pantechnic and one chap moved somebody there. I mean they used to, these corporals would do, do anything really. That, but of course the thing was, you see, once you got to the station where you were instructing course they had nothing to do. You were doing the instructing. So they sort of you know did anything really. It was quite. They were a bunch, a really, especially one -
[Pause]
Right. So having, Wythall finished these mobile classrooms and then I got posted to the Middle East. The canal zone so, and the canal zone, went on a, oh what was it, oh I can’t remember the boat, but that was another one, anyway we got to, got to Abihad and Abihad was 109 Maintenance Unit, and that was the repair of Merlin engines, and they were set up, sort of posted on, to start up a repair service on Hercules but that never came about, and I finished up on the overhaul of the propellers. That was, that was a standard sort of a job but it was er, the mid, then of course we had the problems, in fact when my wife came out, the problems of the riots and all the rest of it which that we were, we lived in Ismailia, we had a flat in Ismailia but then all the problems came and we got, if you got enough points, my wife, we got a hiring on the Canal Road, which is not far off the Great Bitter Lakes, you know, where the canal goes through and we, we got this hiring which was a bungalow, it was sort of quite a complex of bungalows. It was typical Egyptian, oh, and of course, I must have mentioned that our bungalow was the only one with a bath, all the rest had showers. We had a bath and this bath must have been built by the Egyptian who made the tombs and whatnot, ‘cause it was like a big concrete but we were the only one with a bath, but then we had no hot running water so the only way we had a, the only way you could have a bath, in fact the ladies, my wife’s friends and whatnot, well, service people that lived there, they had a bath, you could have a bath and by having two primer stoves and put the zinc bath on top of the two primer stoves, get the water heated up enough, tipped in to this massive bath and put some cold with it and then you could have a decent bath. But the ladies, all the wives, there were quite a number of us there and of course my wife would ask the ladies if they wanted to have a bath, so they come and we’d heat, well my wife organised it and they’d have a bath then. Anyway, that was so that was it, but at that point in time was, was the, my wife was pregnant with our first child, and the point was then, then there was this big expansion programme of, I suppose with the V bomber pilots and whatnot and they wanted fitters and riggers back, back home and I was premature re-patted, but then there was a major problem of my wife was pregnant and of course, she had to come back and they, they, it depended on if they couldn’t come back, I’d have to go out, but then it depended whether the aircrew on the aircraft would bring her back. Would they have her and that and it was a Hastings flight and they said yes. So my wife who was, oh was she near, I wonder if, ‘cause that was, oh she’d be at least eight months. She must have been eight months so it was really, you know, it was touch and go, but anyway she came. They decided to take her so we, she came back in this Hastings or we came back in this Hastings and of course, the bloody thing went u/s in Malta, so we all had to get off and of course, she was the only woman on board the aeroplane. The rest was all, all men. She was the only woman and of course, then, of course in those days, there was no family accommodation. There was only women’s and men and so my wife finished up in this nissen hut all by herself and me in the, with the, ‘cause I was a corporal, with the rest of the men and because I was doing and then I remember in a morning, some chap out there says, ‘Is there a Corporal Bland in the hut?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I am’. He said, ‘Your wife wants you’. I thought, Oh God, you know, we’re not going to have the happening in Malta, you know, but no well when I went out she said, ‘When are you getting up?’ So that was it but eventually we, they got the aeroplane serviceable and we came back, and then of course, they wanted to put us in transit, and my wife said no I’m not going in transit, I want to go home and I’d bought a camera out there and then I had trouble with the customs. I said, ‘You can keep the bloody camera’. But they didn’t like that much, but anyway, we finished up at, where was it? Swindon Station. God knows what. Coming back in the milk train ‘cause we were going back to South Wales to her home in Newport or [unclear] and so we had there. So we, we finished up on this, and oh, Swindon I’ll always remember that. She was wanting to lay down and I said, ‘Alright’. and then of course, it was a bit chilly or something. Was it? I don’t know, but I know a porter came in and lit a fire in this waiting room, ‘cause there was only the two of us, and so eventually we, she kipped down on me, but anyway we got the milk train, we got back to, got to Newport and got a taxi from there and of course, the thing, because she was pregnant, my wife wouldn’t, wouldn’t tell her parents that she was on her way home. So, so we arrived completely unannounced, caused consternation as you can well imagine, but anyway that was it. I got posted to Worksop and she had the baby in Pontypool, and I think she’d have been better off in a military hospital then she was in a national health. I didn’t, she didn’t get treated very well there at all, anyway, that’s by the by, so we got to Worksop and I was on Meteors. So, posted to Worksop. Worksop which was an old wartime airfield which had been renovated, and we got Meteors there. So of course, I was, I was then a corporal still and then I got, I passed my senior technician’s exams, so I was a corporal, but I wasn’t really due for my senior, ‘cause at the time, wasn’t due for my senior and then I got my third. My sergeant came through, so I was a sergeant senior tech qualified. So that was the way it went on for the time being. I hadn’t, the time was it, wasn’t to go for the chief so that was the way it was. So I was on Meteors there in R&I, in Meteors so that was, that was my spell there. Then that went on till was it 19, I think it went on until 1955, and then a friend of mine who was also at Worksop, and he was a great reader of AMOs and he said, he said there’s an AMO about this new V bombers and their looking for aircraft servicing chiefs. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘that’s a good idea’. ‘Oh’, but he says, ‘they’ve got to be aircraft fitters’. Well I‘m only an engine fitter, I wasn’t an aircraft fitter. He was an aircraft fitter. Anyway, he volunteered for it and because he was an aircraft fitter, he finished up with it. Anyway, he was waiting and then, then they changed it and he came to me. He said, ‘Ay’, he said, ‘They’ve done, they’ve done a change on the AMO’. He said, ‘They’re taking on airframe and engine fitters’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘Right’. So I went straight into the office and volunteered, and saying that was in 1955 and, yes and that was at the beginning of ’55. Must have been because then I had to go and they said alright, and I got this and I had to go to Brampton for an interview for this aircraft servicing chief. So I went there for this interview and a panel of officers, wing commanders and educators and electrical officers and so I had to, you know. What the hell for I don’t know. They ask you all sorts of questions. So that was it. You didn’t know anything about it at all until, when was it? It would have been, when would this be? July, August something like that, and it came through and told me that I’d got to, now I’d got to, where did I have to go first. I had to go Wheaton first, to get, to go on an airframe course. So I went on this airframe course, which was quite a small one. I don’t think I learned much more than I knew in the first place, but anyway I went on this airframe course and then from then on, I sort of moved on to, we had to then, had to go down to Melksham to go on the instrument and electrical course, so having done that, we went to Melksham, and then they allocated you from Melksham. It depended on how well you did, what you, what aircraft you went on, ‘cause the Valiant was in progress ‘cause there were Valiant crew chiefs, had been trained and I can’t remember how many crew chiefs there was. Twenty of us on the course? Was it? I can’t remember now how many, but anyway, then it worked out the Victor came in and the Vulcan and, and the Valiant but some Vulcan crew chiefs had been trained before, but out of my course there was four Victors that went on the Victor. There was eight, eight, was it eight? Yeah, eight Vulcans and the rest were Valiants. So that’s how I was, and they did you, on the, you were allowed to volunteer which aircraft you want, went, went on but it depended on your position in the final exam which aircraft you got. Unfortunately, I came top so I was able, I had my pick of Vulcan, I didn’t want the Victor. All the others were interested in was the Victor, I wasn’t interested in the Victor at all so I went and got on the Vulcan. So then from Melksham, we went on to Avro’s. Was it Avro’s? No Avro’s weren’t first. Where did we go? Boulton Pauls power fliers I think. Boulton Paul. Was there Avro’s then? I don’t know. A V Roe’s. And then you had to, Bristols was the engines you had to do that so that was the end of, I mean, this was taking you up from, so that was, what are we saying? Was it May? May or June? I don’t know, ’55? So this was 1956 and we were all posted to Waddington, all of us, and all the crew chiefs, the Vulcan crew chiefs, were at Waddington. Half of us had nothing to do. In fact, what did we do, because I’d been in, here it is you see, you come back, you’ve been MT, so you’ve been working on MT and you’ve got an MT driving licence and whatnot, so I finished up driving a bloody lorry, making a car park. That just shows you. Crew chiefs. We were doing sweated labour if you like. And then the first Vulcan arrived in, was it June? July? Anyway, whatever it was and that was it and of course, the only one that was Geordie Colley, who was the number one, and so it did a while and then he had to go down to Boscombe Down on intensified flying trials. And then during this space of time, they’d allocated crew chiefs for the OCU. The first squadron which was 83, which became 44, and then the second squadron was 101, which was going to be at Coningsby and of course, we’d all been buggering about this long, so four of us, we decided we’d try to jack up the system a bit and we get posted to Coningsby. We were all ready for the Vulcan when it came, what a doing that do? Anyway, I got nominated by the engineering officer to go as number two to Geordie Colley, so I finished up going down to Boscombe Down on the intensified flying trials with this XA 895. That was the first Vulcan. The other one of course, the one that crashed, was Broadhurst was 897 and I was 89, with 895, so I went down there with Geordie Colley and then Geordie Colley’s wife had a baby, so I was left on number 1 with this bloody aeroplane that I knew, well I say you knew nothing about. You were one of the one’s that knew anything and everybody, before they did a bloody job, came and asked you was it right, and you had no bloody idea either so it was, and that was the way it went. So I did my spell at Boscombe Down, fell out with the engineering officer, and so he sent me back, which was very nice. So I came back to Coningsby. I get back to Coningsby. No aeroplanes at Coningsby so what, what do we do? You’ve got a crew chief here with no aeroplanes in the wrong airfield because they’d decided the Vulcan wasn’t going to Coningsby, it was going to Finningley, so we got four, four crew chiefs all trained up in the wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything, you know. So I went in to the squadron leader, Coningsby was on C&M I think at the time, ‘cause they were, they were, they got some Canberras there I think, but then I went in to see, ‘cause I went there, went in to see the engineering officer, was a squadron leader OCUEng, and so anyway ‘cause then he says, oh, do airframe and whatnot. ‘What have you done, Chief?’ I said, ‘Oh, just instructing MT’. ‘Just the man’, he says. ‘You’re in charge of MTSS’. So here am I, a fully trained Vulcan crew chief, in charge of MT servicing, so that was, that was it and I thought, well crikey I’m a, you know, I’ve got sergeants here, MT fitters. I’m not, you know, qualified but anyway it didn’t matter, and then there was another chief tech there doing, so anyway and then the flight sergeant came so I was able to hand over to him without any trouble at all. And they put me then, the MTO said, ‘Oh you’d better come on the MT operating section’’ and that was, I went on the MT operating section and that was when, I suppose, I achieved an ambition as a small boy. As a very small boy, all I wanted to do was drive a big lorry, and so anyway, ‘cause I had the MT operating section and whatnot, the MT, I had a 658 to cover me on everything and I managed to drive one of these damned great snow ploughs. So I thought I’d achieved a very ambition of long ago when I was a little boy, so that was it, but then, then of course things all changed and then the next thing that happened they, where was I? Was I still at Coningsby? Yeah. Or was I oh, no we got posted to, did we get posted to Finningley? Got posted to Finn, oh the, we managed to get ourselves, four of us, back to Finningley, and of course at Finningley, of course there were new quarters. No equipment barrack equipment in them. We were posted, so the barrack warden, you know, he said, ‘I can’t’, you know, ‘I haven’t got the men. I haven’t got transport’, I haven’t got do this, that and the other to furnish these quarters, which need doing, so what we did, I got the 658 and I could drive the truck, so we furnished the quarters. The four of us furnished our own quarters out of the stores and all the rest of it, so we furnished our quarters so we could move the families in. So that was, that was Finningley, and then of course all this was done, and then the next thing, they despatched me back to Waddington, ‘cause they, they were taking the Vulcan to America on a bombing competition. So they detached me back to Waddington so that I could go on this, the SAC bombing competition with these, with the Vulcans and because you weren’t allowed to, you were only allowed, you weren’t allowed to have two crew chiefs per aeroplane, the thing was you’d got to have, in your crew, you’d got to have a crew chief standby in case the original crew chief went sick, so I was, this was the best of it was, I was an engine fitter and basically an engine fitter, so I went as an airframe, an airframe mechanic. I went as an airframe mechanic to Florida on the bombing comp, so that was it, but then of course that all went. Came back home and then of course the second squadron, ‘cause the first squadron, the ones that were at Waddington had all got, been crew chiefs and got their aeroplanes, and my friend who got killed, Taf Everson, he got 908, XA908 but, and anyway they, they, he went and everyone got their aeroplane and because I’d been in America, course I was way down the list, so I eventually, eventually when was it? Would have been ’57, would it, then? Yeah, ’57 aye, yeah. Came up and I went to, I had to go to Woodford and I picked up XH475 that was, that was my aeroplane, so anyway I went up there and got that and became part of the squadron, you know. That was the crew chief. Didn’t matter what you were. And of course, got this aeroplane and took it all over the place. Got stuck all over the place. Lost an engine in Goose. Pump failure. So that was on. Got hydraulic failure, the hydraulic system in, where was that? Oh God. It was, oh dear. Where was that? And that was in America. I can’t remember. That was somewhere and then of course we got, come back and you did the ranges. Then they had the, what was it, oh I can’t remember. The exercises you had to go to. Butterworth. Was it profiteer? I don’t know what it was, I can’t remember now. So I took 475 there. I was flying, I was flying with the wing commander’s squadron. Flew out there and got out there flying and whatnot. I had a day off and of course they wanted to do something, and they, my aeroplane, I had a day off and I came, went back and found that some daft bugger had closed the bomb doors on the safety razor and broken one of the bomb door links. Oh God. And that was, I said, ‘That’s a brilliant one isn’t it?’ So, anyway, only had to be, how am I, there we were, how were we going to get back and there’s all the gear we got there and of course, you opened the bomb doors and we could open them and put all the stuff in and then you had to, we’d close the bomb doors. The only way then was we had, got local blacksmiths to make a turn buckle, and with turn buckle, so you could close the bomb doors and once you’d closed them, we wound them up so that you couldn’t open them. Anyway, took the fuses out and everything, so I had a bomb door, bomb bay full of US equipment, all my tyres had been burnt and worn, so I said to the wing commander, I said, I said, ‘I’ve got no I’ve got no gear in as I can use’. I said, ‘If we get left behind, we’re stuck’. He said, ‘We won’t get left behind’. But then of course, the next thing that happened was, I don’t know how, CRACK. My bomb aimer’s window was cracked. Oh dear. So I said to the wing commander, I said, ‘We’ve got a cracked bomb aimers window’. I said, I said, I said ‘I don’t know, we’ll have to fly back with it’. I said ‘I’ll do a pressurization and see’, you know, ‘if it’s alright’. He said ‘we’ll do the pressurisation on the way home’. That was it. So I flew home with a bomb bay full of rubbish, a bomb er, cracked bomb aimer’s window and came home that way. Landed and that was it. We managed without any trouble. I can’t remember, did we have any troubles? I normally get all sorts of troubles and that but, but I didn’t. I think we got back home without, and then of course, that was it. And then of course the next one was the CnC and whatnot, wanted to go on a lecture tour of America or something but he, he didn’t go in mine. He went on, I forget, was it 909? I think it was, with his own crew chief, Bill Neane I think, but then that got, flew via the Azores to Bermuda. Got to Bermuda and the inverter failed and his brakes, the brakes failed. The CnC wanted another aeroplane to go in so that was it. God knows what time of night I got knocked up in my night quarter, and they said, ‘Chief, we’re going, we’ve got to take, get an aeroplane to Bermuda. His inverter’s gone, brake units so we’ve got to take all the spares’. So there’s me, middle of the night with a pannier, getting bits and pieces and loading it all up, and then off we get to go to Bermuda via the Azores. The Azores. Always remember the, the, was he, is it Portuguese? I think he was, this officer looked as though he’d come out of what’s the name? I can’t think of the place. He had tassels on his uniform and all sorts of things, and did I want compression. I said, ‘Did I want compression?’ I couldn’t figure out what he was on about. Eventually I worked out that he, ‘did I want compressed air?’ Oh yeah, I wanted compressed air, yeah, so, but anyway that was left there without any trouble at all. Got to Bermuda and then of course met the crew chief and the crew of this 909. Landed there, got off the aeroplane and I got, got met by two Canadian Navy petty officers with a big bottle of whisky. ‘Come and have a drink mate’, you know. We’ve got, you know. I said, ‘I can’t drink and do’ and anyway my other crew chief there I said, ‘Alright we’ll have a drink’. So managed to have a couple of whiskies, but we got to change everything on these two aeroplanes because of all the gear from his aeroplane had to be transferred from mine to his and all the rest of it, so we did a pannier change and wheel change with the only support we had, ‘cause it should take four men to winch a pannier down off a Vulcan, was two crew chiefs and two drunken Canadian naval petty officers. So, but we managed and that, that was that. We had a bit of a problem. They had an electrical problem on start-up. It was robbed of, robbed a component off the aeroplane and that was my aeroplane cause I’d been, I’d changed, I’d made, well I’d thought I was going to go through with, with 476 but then, I don’t know whether the CnC wanted Bill Neane. I don’t know what it was but I finished up with this heap of rubbish in Bermuda instead of going onwards. And then, oh dear that, where did we get to? Yeah. Two drunken petty officers winching the pannier. It was amazing we got it down but anyway, we got it down. We got the gear changed over and everything, and Bill Neane wouldn’t drink anymore so as I was stopping, I was stuck. These two petty officers and whatnot decided we should finish this bottle of whisky. Oh God. What a thing isn’t it? So that was it. Then they changed over, then of course, they all got in. The bloody aeroplane went u/s again. That was the one I’d brought in so the CnC had to go, he had a date in America, the CN not the CnC was he? Not the CnC. Whatever he was. Whoever he was he had to go on by, by American transport and how humiliating really. So then of course, I had to rob, I robbed the aeroplane, robbed the u/s aeroplane to get this one serviceable. Then of course, had to get to America, and of course the CnC was acting as co-pilot, so of course there was one pilot missing, so the only way was the co-pilot that came up, came over with me, had to go on to America with this, with this, this other aeroplane. I don’t know how they finished up but anyway the co-pilot came back, but then, then of course the problem came, of course, I had this, left with this aeroplane in Bermuda with brakes troubles and inverter troubles. They’d sent an inverter, they’d sent an electrician out via BOAC to give me assistance on this electrical stuff, but then of course, he came out and I said, righto we’ll, we’ve changed the inverter. We’re alright. We’ll change, do the brake change. We can do the brake change and of course he was an electrician, and of course all he had to do to help me was to jack up and whatnot, and of course then, there was, then came a sorry tale. I got the jack underneath to, to change the brake units on this and I found that the bogie beam had a crack in it, a crack right along the end. Oh, at the end. I thought, what the devil do we, so anyway, all I got, I said to the captain, I said, ‘We’re in trouble here’. I said, ‘We’ve got a cracked bogie beam’. ‘Oh dear’, he said. So anyway, I’ve signals going back and forth, this cracked bogie beam. I said ‘well could drill a hole at the termination of the crack, but then the bogie beam takes all the stress of landing’. So I thought, oh well, but anyways I left it up to the UK air to decide, so they sent out a Doughty draughtsman, techno, oh, stress man or something, to see whether there was any possibility of doing this and he came out, and of course, no. Obviously he wouldn’t say it was even, if it probably was, because if it had cracked and the aircraft had crashed, it would have been him, so that was, that was it, so I was left there with this bloody aeroplane, with the rain pouring down, wind blowing, with this, with this aeroplane. Salt air was making things go a bit rusty but anyway they decided, well they had to change the bogie beam, the bogie beam. I don’t know [unclear]. The bogie beam carries the whole aeroplane of four wheels on one side, you know so, and the weight of the aeroplane so that had to be jacked up. The thing was, was all the equipment, was getting the equipment out to me in Bermuda and of course, the Air Force in those days, hadn’t got any bloody transport aeroplanes at all I don’t think, so they had, they had to hire, hire a DC6 to carry this. So I’d got four jacks, one hydraulic rig ‘cause retractions had to be done, so I had four jacks and a hydraulic rig, and of course they sent it out in this DC6, but fortunately they sent two, a chief tech out of their hydraulic bay and another rigger who was, he was, he was ex Halton boy, the same as me. So we had a chief tech, me a crew chief, a chief tech rigger, a sergeant rigger and a sergeant electrician and the aircrew, and these jacks all had to be built up ‘cause they couldn’t fly them in the aircraft whole so they were all in bits, so I had to build all these jacks up, fill them with hydraulic oil and do everything there to get these jacks up before we could jack the aeroplane up. And the other thing was a negotiation with the, the master sergeant of the hangar, ‘cause there was only one hangar on Bermuda and that was, had the doors welded open so that the wind could blow through it ‘cause otherwise it would have blown off and this, as I say, this master sergeant looked like Geronimo. I’m sure he was Indian anyway and we got on but he was not, he was a hard looking man and of course then he said, I said, well you know trying to negotiate use of this hangar for jacking up. He said, ‘Yes’. He said, ‘You can have the hangar but’, he said, ‘for twelve hours only and that’s all’. Twelve hours. I thought, bloody hell and all that, you know we’ve got to change and do hydraulic tests and everything on this, but anyway we managed it. And then a dry, to drive these axles out of the, of the bogie beam was, was the only way we could use - the Americans had solid chocs like sleepers and the way we drove these axles out of there was by one of these chocs and heaving it like a battering ram, but anyway we got the axles out. We got it all done anyway, and all the rest of it and retractions and the wind was blowing through the hangar, but we managed it. We did, we did it all. Much to, well we had to do it in the time, we hadn’t got much option and anyway, we got it out and on the, then of course all trouble started ‘cause then of course, I got water in the pitot system. That was ‘cause of all this terrible rain and the pitothead covers were bloody ridiculous so that was another job I had to do. Clean out, get all the water out of the pitot system. So that was it. ‘Righto’, he says. ‘That’s it. We’ve still got to do an air test’. So we got down to do, I forgot to mention that the only power, the only power source ‘cause the Vulcan bombers was a hundred and twelve volt DC and the only power source they’d got, ‘cause the Americans don’t use it, they use twenty eight volt but the, and only one we could do was borrow. They had a hundred and twelve volt for the, was it the Britannia on the, BOAC, BOAC side or British, yeah, British Airways side of Bermuda, so I had to borrow their diesel generator when they weren’t using it, so that was another thing. So I had to borrow this and then I had to tow it across the airfield to me. So anyway, that was, that was that was another thing, borrowing it and negotiating and all the rest of it. So we got that, got that done and eventually got it, got it started and, ‘Righto, we’re off’, you know and, oh that’s right. When I found that it goes boring off again and, that’s right and of course, they shut down and came back. I said, ‘What’s, what’s the trouble?’ ‘We’ve got no ASI’, no Air Speed Reading. This was when I found out that these pitothead covers were no good ‘cause I got water in the pitot system, so that all had to be drained, all that drained, done, everything else. ‘Have another go’. So we had another go, air test. Off they went and they flew around. I thought, ‘Oh we’re in business here’, they landed and I said, ‘Any?’ ‘Yes. Compass’. Oh dear God. Compass. I said, ‘What’s the matter?’ They said, ‘Our readings are wrong’, you know, somewhere along. I said well you know, so after much investigating, I thought, well it’s near impossible, the two pilot’s repeaters were duff. I thought it’s either that or the master indicator. The master. And I thought, if it’s the master, we’re in trouble ‘cause we’d got to do a compass sweep and all the rest of it for that. So anyway, back goes signals and the next thing comes out an instrument maker who happened to be an instrument maker off my entry of course, so I knew him personally. A chief tech. Instrument came back BOAC. I mean his, his, his excess weight baggage was off because he’d bought a compass, a master indicator, the blinkin’ whole bloody bag of shoots with him, and what state to do a compass sweep if he had to. Anyway, it turned out it was the two, as I thought it was, the two pilot’s repeaters were both u/s. Most unusual. So, anyway, that was, that was changed. I mean, mind you in this, [unclear] I know all this stuff had to be packed up and whatnot and landed on this DC6, to be flown back home and so that was another job. And where had we got to? Oh aye, the compass, that was it. Oh, that was it. Then the other things was, the thing that was before the compass, I can’t remember. Number 3 tank on the portside had developed a bloody leak and the Mark I tanks were not what I’d call brilliant. Anyway, the only way I could do it was, I thought, well I don’t know what I can do with this leak, and the Americans had some, had some peculiar sealant that they had, ‘cause they used a similar sort of thing that I used, and after much, as I say, I got to know this, my master sergeant quite well and I had a long chat with him, and I said, ‘Well have you got some stuff I can maybe cure this leak?’ ‘Cause I knew where it was. The tank where the pump housing and everything was, prone to split. The bolt holes tend to split so I, after much talk with this man I dropped the, I dropped the pump on number 3 tank and lathered this sealant in place, hoping it would do it because I mean, the tank change was beyond and so I had a go. It wasn’t, it wasn’t much good at all but then of course, we’d had the air test. We’d had everything done. We were all ready to go home, but with this tank and I said ‘well’, I said, ‘we’ve got the pilot who was’, Beavis, his name was. Who was he? He finished up a, was he master of the Royal Air Force or something? Mike Beavis, and I said to, and John Ward was the co-pilot, I said, ‘Well look. I can, I can put fuel it for you to go home’, because by this time, we were, we were, this was the only thing that was stopping us. I said, ‘To go home’, I said, ‘Look, we either if you can work it out with number 3 tank empty, we can make it’. I said, ‘Otherwise’, I said, ‘I’ll fill number 3 tank’, and this was number 3 tank port, I said, ‘And then you use all that fuel off that tank for everything to empty it’. And then I said, ‘What’s left we’ll just have to let it leak out’. And so John Ward did his calculations, that we could fly back with that number 3 tank empty, so I then sort of took all the fuses out, took the pump off it and everything. Well, the pump was there but I took the fuses out and everything so that the pump couldn’t overheat or anything, and that was, so we flew back from Bermuda to the Azores. So we land back to the Azores and so I said we were alright from the Azores back home with still number 3 tank empty, and then, of course, oh damn. The Azores, we started off on my pack that I’d got, with the battery pack that I’d got in the bomb, in the pannier, started up and was doing and then they said, Number 3 inverted, was the one that I’d changed, we’d changed in Bermuda. Number 3 inverter had gone down. I said, ‘Oh God’, you know, I said, I said, ‘Well we’re sunk’. I said, ‘I’ve no spare inverters that I can change’. I said we, we, I said, ‘Look. It’s, it’s number 3. We can go on’. Number 3 was the sort of standby. I said, ‘We can either’, to the captain, I said, ‘Look. We either wait here and I get an inverter to change it or we fly home on everything we’ve got with no spare’. So, after a bit of a discussion they said, ‘We’ll, we’ll, go home’. So we started up and flew home. Got, ‘cause we came from Finningley really. Course we landed at Waddington and of course, we had to there for customs clearance of all things. So we landed at Waddington and the wing commander was there to greet us, and my captain who was not the, not the first pilot, he was the navigator, ‘Oh’, he said, we could, he said ‘If you put a brake chute in, we could fly home couldn’t we?’ I said, ‘Look’, I said, ‘I’ll put you a brake chute in but’, I said, I said, ‘I’ll walk home’. I said, ‘That’s a bloody heap of rubbish this is’. A heap of rubbish. So anyway, the wing commander was there and so I said, ‘Well that’s it’. And, and that aeroplane at Waddington, took them a fortnight to get it serviced to fly it to Finningley. So that was, that was me. I came home after months in Bermuda and the wing commander said, ‘You’d better have a couple of days off’. But that was a bloody aeroplane. Bloody aeroplane. 909. XA909. It wasn’t mine, it was Fred Harrison’s. It wasn’t one I fetched, and then oh, after that, we went to, we went on a, to Butterworth. Went to Butterworth and then we, because this was when they shut my damned, did I tell you about that. I haven’t put that on there have I? No. I can’t remember, I’ve told that much. They shook my, they shook my aircraft [unclear], broken the bomb doors. I had to take 9, I had to take, the aircrew wanted to go, were minded to take an aircraft to Manila in the Philippines from Butterworth, and mine was u/s with the bomb doors, and the only one I could take was 909. The engineer said, ‘Do you mind taking 909?’ ‘Cause that was the one that was stuck in Bermuda, Bermuda with. I said, ‘I’ll take anything as long as its serviceable’, so, and that was the only, the only range I ever did where I had a serviceable aircraft from start to finish. I flew there no troubles. No troubles there and flew back and that was the only, only trip I ever did in a Vulcan where I didn’t have any problems.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command Archive I’d like to thank Warrant Officer Charles Bland at his home in Lincolnshire on the 17th of August 2015. Thank you for the recording.
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Interview with Charles Bland
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-17
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Sound
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ABlandC150817, PBlandC1501
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Description
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Charles Bland joined the Royal Air Force in February 1942 and went to RAF Halton as an Aircraft Apprentice.
He tells of his training at Halton, and describes the different trades and his exams to become an Leading Aircraftsman 1st Class, where he was then transferred to a Repair and Inspection Unit (R&I) working on Spitfire engines.
Charles then went to India via the Suez Canal and then on to Ceylon to 121 Repair and Salvage Unit, looking after 2 squadrons of Beaufighters and 1 squadron of Spitfires, but he says that because he was an apprentice, he could turn his hand to anything.
He was posted to instruct at a Motor Transport Unit, and spent time learning about the maintenance of other equipment including diesel engines.
Charles was posted to 109 Maintenance Unit, repairing Merlin engines, however at this time the V Bombers were coming into service. He trained as a Crew Chief and after passing these exams he was assigned to the Avro Vulcan XA908, at RAF Waddington.
Charles related the stories of the work he did when the Vulcan had hydraulic failure at Goose Green, the bombing competition in Florida where the aircraft suffered broken bomb bay doors and a cracked bomb aimers window, and the trip home from Bermuda with no fuel in one tank and a broken bogie beam.
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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02:21:37 audio recording
Beaufighter
C-47
fitter airframe
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
Meteor
military discipline
military service conditions
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Coningsby
RAF Finningley
RAF Halton
RAF Kirton in Lindsey
RAF Waddington
RAF Worksop
service vehicle
Spitfire
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
York